Document oe32vZ54zeJEK4JEdRv2XyBL8

IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF WEST VIRGINIA CHARLESTON, WEST VIRGINIA JAMES M. ADKINS, Administrator of the Estate of Ralph E. Adkins, Deceased, et al, Plaintiffs, vs. MONSANTO COMPANY, a Delaware Corporation, Defendant. ) ) ) ) ) ) ) ) ) ) ) ) No.81-2098 Deposition of WILLIAM J. MC CARVILLE taken on behalf of the plaintiffs. Reporter: M. Joy Springer J ames M ay R eporting S ervice C E R T IF IE D S H O R T H A N D R E P O R T E R S n n 2 - bo x 65 EDWARDSVILLE. ILLINOIS 62025 IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT SOUTHERN DISTRICT OP WEST VIRGINIA CHARLESTON, WEST VIRGINIA 3 4 JAMES M. ADKINS, Administrator ) of the Estate of Ralph E. Adkins, ) 5 Deceased, et al, ) ) Plaintiffs, ) ) 7 vs. ) No. 8 1 - 2 0 9 8 ) 8 MONSANTO COMPANY, a Delaware Corporation, ) ) 9) Defendant. ) 10 n 12 APPEARANCES: 13 Paul L. Pratt, Esq., For the Plaintiffs; 14 Messrs. Bowles, McDavid, Graff & Love, . by Charles M. Love, III, Esq., For the Defendant. 15 16 17 18 IT IS STIPULATED AND AGREED by and between 19 counsel for the plaintiffs and counsel for the defendant 20 that the deposition of WILLIAM J. MC CARVILLE may be taken 21 pursuant to Rule 26(a) of the Federal Rules of Civil Pro 22 cedure, on behalf of the plaintiffs, on July 12, 198 3 ,. at 23 the Radisson Hotel, Room 215, 9th Street and Convention 24 Plaza, St. Louis, Missouri, before M. JOY SPRINGER, a Notary 25 Public within and for the County of Madison, State of JAMES MAY REPORTING SERVICE 1 Illinois; that the issuance of notice and dedimus is 1 2 waived, and that this deposition may be taken with the 3 same force and effect as if all Federal rules and statutory 4 requirements had been complied with. 5 IT IS FURTHER STIPULATED AND AGREED that 6 any and all objections to all or any part of this deposi 7 tion except objections as to form of the questions asked 8 or answers given, are hereby reserved and may be raised on 9 the trial of this cause; and that the signature of the 10 deponent i3 not waived. 11 12 13 14 15 WILLIAM J, MC CARVILLE, 16 produced, sworn and examined on behalf of the plaintiffs, 17 deposes and says as follows: 18 EXAMINATION 19 20 BY MR. PRATT: 21 (Whereupon the reporter marked Plaintiff's 22 Deposition Exhibit #306 (Monsanto's I.D. 23 #831599*0, consisting of one page; Plaintiff's 24 Deposition Exhibit #307 (Monsanto's I.D. 25 #8316326 and 8316327), consisting of two pages; JAMES MAY REPO RTING SERVICE 1 Plaintiff13 Deposition Exhibit #308 (Monsanto's 2 I.t). #832068*1 through 8320693, inclusive), con 3 sisting of ten pages; Plaintiff's Deposition 4 Exhibit #309 (Monsanto's I.D. #8321738), con 5 sisting of one page; Plaintiff's Deposition 6 Exhibit #310 (Monsanto's I.D. #8322238, 83222*1*1 7 and 83222*15), consisting of three pages; Plain 8 tiff's Deposition Exhibit #311 (Monsanto's I.D. 9 # 8 3 2 2 8 7 3 and 832287*1), consisting of two pages; 10 Plaintiff's Deposition Exhibit #312 (Monsanto's 11 I.D. #8331220 through 833122*1, Inclusive), con 12 sisting of five pages; Plaintiff's Deposition 13 Exhibit #313 (Monsanto's I. D. #233695), con 14 ' sisting of one page; Plaintiff's Deposition 15 Exhibit #31*1 (Monsanto's I.D. #8323203 through 16 8 3 2 3 2 0 5 , inclusive), consisting of three pages; 17 Plaintiff's Deposition Exhibit #315 (Monsanto's 18 I.D. #8331253), consisting of one page; Plain 19 tiff's Deposition Exhibit #316 (Monsanto's I.D. 20 #832323*1 and 8323235), consisting of two pages; 21 Plaintiff's Deposition Exhibit #317 (Monsanto's 22 I.D. #83232*15 through 8 3 2 3 2 *18, i n c l u s i v e ) c o n 23 sisting of four pages; Plaintiff's Deposition 24 Exhibit #318 (Monsanto's I.D. # 2 3 6 2 0 6 through 25 236208, inclusive), consisting of three pages; JAMES MAY REPO RTING SERVICE Plaintiff's Deposition Exhibit #319 (Monsanto's I.D. #231753 through 231756, inclusive), con sisting of four pages; Plaintiff's Deposition 4 Exhibit #320 (Monsanto's I.D. #238212 and 238213), 5 consisting of two pages; Plaintiff's Deposition Exhibit #321 (Monsanto's I.D. #8323313 through 7 8 3 2 3 3 1 5 , Inclusive), consisting of three pages; 8 Plaintiff's Deposition Exhibit #322 (Monsanto's 9 I.D. #8323318 through 8323320, inclusive), con 10 sisting of three pages; Plaintiff's Deposition 11 Exhibit #323 (Monsanto's I.D. #8323328 and 12 8323329), consisting of two pages; Plaintiff's ~ 13 Deposition Exhibit #824 (Monsanto's I.D. #8321780), 14 consisting of one page; Plaintiff's Deposition 15 Exhibit #325 (Monsanto's I.D. #8 3 2 6 0 7 1 ), con l sisting of one page; Plaintiff's Deposition 17 Exhibit #326 (Monsanto's I.D. # 8 3 2 6 1 2 9 through 18 8326142, irtalusive, and 8 3 2 6 1 4 9 through 8 3 2 6 1 6 0 , 19 inclusive), consisting of twenty-six pages; 20 Plaintiff's Deposition Exhibit #327 (Monsanto's 21 I.D. #8324039 and 8324040), consisting of two 22 pages; Plaintiff's Deposition Exhibit #328 23 (Monsanto's I.D. #8324372), consisting of one 24 page; Plaintiff's Deposition Exhibit #329 25 (Monsanto's I.D. #232333), consisting of one page. JAMES MAY REPORTING SERVICE If > ] ft 2A 3 ft 4A 5 Missouri. 6 Or 7A 8 ft 9 from high 10 A 11 ft 12 you do? 13 A 14 ft 15 Navy? 1 A 17 ft 18 A 19 ft 20 A 21 ft 22 A 23 over one s 24 to college 25 ft Tell us your name, will you, sir? William J, McCarville. And where do you live? I live at 12 Ridge Crest Court, Chesterfield, And how old a man are you? Fifty-four. Okay. You would have graduated what year L? 19^5 After you got out of high school what did Went in the Navy. Okay. And how long did you serve in the At that time just one year. Got out in 19^6? Uh huh (yes). Okay. What did you do then? Went to college. Okay. The fall of *46? Actually, I had done one semester, a little Where did you go to college? JAMES MAY REPO RTING SERVICE <$:. 1 A St. Mary's College In Winona, Minnesota. 2 ft And did you get a bachelor's degree from 3 there? 4 A. A Bachelor of Science in Chemistry. 5 ft What year? 6 A 1948. 7 Would that have been in the spring? 8 A Yes . 9 ft What did you do next? 10 A I went to work as a conductor on the 11 Elevated Chicago. 12 ft On what, sir? The El? 13 A Yeah. 14 Q, How long did you do that? 15 A Until I got enough money to go back to 16 school. 17 a Okay. When was that? 18 A In '49. 19 ft Fall of '49? 20 A Uh huh (yes) . 21 ft Where did you go to school? 22 ` A I went to the University of Detroit. 23 ft Did you get a master's? 24 A A master's degree in Organic Chemistry. 25 ft What year did you get that? JAMES MAY REPORTING SERVICE * '! 1 A. 1950. 2 Q What did you do following that? 3 A. I went to the University of Michigan and 4 worked on my Ph.D. 5 Q And did you go straight through? A. No, sir. I got called back for Korea. 7 Q, When did you get calledback? 8 A. February of 1952. 9 Q, So you had about two years on the Ph.D., 10 right? n A Right. 12 Q, All right. What type work did you do in- 13 the Navy? 14 A. Well, I was attached to a medical research 15 unit. 1 4 Okay. Were you a corpsman? 17 No. I was an officer. 18 Q What were your duties as an officer? 19 A Standard duties, plus doing chemical research 20 Q Okay. Kow long were you in there, sir7 21 A Two years. 22 Q So you came back out in -- 23 A -- February of f5^. 24 Q Where were you stationed? 1 25 A Well, I was -stationed at the Naval Medical JAMES MAY REPORTING SERVICE 1 Research Institute in Washington, D. C. I was transferred 2 to a research ship in Pusan and then I was transferred hack 3 to Washington, D. C., where I was separated. 4 Q Okay, What type of research were you doing 5 or were you involved In? A. Primarily I was working on an enzyme which 7 is affected by so-called nerve gases, acetylcholinesterase. 8 Q When you got out in February of '5**, did 9 you go back to college? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q ' And back to Michigan? 12 A. Yes. 13 ^ When did you finish the doctorate? 14 A. Finished In the summer of *55.- 15 Q What was your thesis in? 16 A. My major for doctorate was in pharmaceutical 17 chemistry. My thesis was on a series of, oh, compounds 18 that can be used for killing pain. 19 Q Okay. After 1955 where did you go? 20 A. Went to work for Monsanto. 21 Q Okay. And that would have been what date? 22 A. September. .... 23 Q And where did you go to work in the Monsanto 24 Company? 25 At that time the Central Research Division JAMES MAY REPORTING SERVICE 1 in Dayton, Ohio. 2 d ' How long were you there, sir? 3 A. I was there until February of *58. 4 d Okay. What was your Job title? 5 A. Research Chemist. 6 d And'what were your duties and responsibilitie 7 A. I was doing work on some class of compound 8 that could reflect infrared radiation. 9d 10 go? Okay. After February of '58 where did you i 11 A Washington, D. C. 12 d How long were you in Washington? 13 A Until May of I960. s' 14 d What did you do in Washington? 15 A I was Technical Representative for Monsanto 16 to the agencies of the government. 17 d Did you have an office there? 18 A Yes. 19 d Does Monsanto maintain offices there for 20 that purpose today? * 21 A Yes. j 22 Q Okay. And what was your title when you . 23 first got there? i j 24 A Technical Representative. ; 25 d Okay. What were your duties andresponsi___________ ._____________ _________________ ,___________________ i_ JAMES MAY REPORTING SERVICE * 1 bilities? 2 Basically X was a resource link between the 3 vi^^onpany imd; the agencies of the government. f*" '<'%'^y:-1^ 4 -'It Okay. Did you do any of your technical 5 representing to the government Involving 2,11,5 T? - 6 A. No. 7 Q Okay. When did the government start buying 8 what they call Agent Orange, do you recall, from the govem- 9 ment? 10 A I don't recall specifically. 11 a Okay. And your duties, then, I 12 would be to represent the company in regard to variouo 'irVri p? -- y- - 13 chemicals that you're trying to sell the government? " 1' 14 A No, no. No, that was specifically not in 15 the charter of that office. There were no sales made and 16 we didn't involve ourselves in any sales. 17 Q Okay. What did you do -- 18 A Well, for example, worked with the Depart- 19 ment of Ag. in getting the clearances for some new pesti- 20 cides that we were making, herbicides. 21 .. .. Q Okay, After I960 where did you go? 22 A St. Louis. 23 0, You been there since? 24 A Uh huh (yea). 25 Q Now, if you will, let's go through each one JAMES MAY REPORTING SERVICE 10 9 of the positions that you had and tell me here a little ^about them.JA *m*>-ii * * ^ .. \ Since here in St. Louis? 4 Q Yes 5 A. Well, I came here in I960. X went to the 6 then Organic Chemicals Division as a Project Manager in the 7 Development Department, specifically, in the Pine Chemicals 8 Q What do you mean by fine chemicals? 9 A. Oh, that's terminology used to describe 10 substances like pharmaceuticals, feed additives. ' 11 Q, And what was your Job there? 12 A. To try to develop new uses forexisting - 13 products or identify new needs, hopefully find new products 14 to suit. 15 Q Was that at World Headquarters? Had that 16 been built at that time? 17 A Yes, part of it. 18 a Were you there? V 19 A. "A Yes. 20 Q . : And how long were you in that Job? 21 A Until January of '6l, 22 d And what position did you get then? 23 A I became Development 1Manager in the newly 24 formed Agricultural Division. 25 Q How long were you in that Job? JAMES MAY REPORTING SERVICE 9 l Until April of 1964. Okay. What were your duties and reaponsi- 3 ^ ^ M l i f c i W there? V '?* * f'-. . 4 A I had responsibility for, again, new product 5 development in the area of insecticides and blasting'agents. 6 Q Okay. This, again, would have nothing to 7 do with herbicides, I guess? 8 A None. 9 Q All right. April, '64, where did 10 A I moved over into the Marketing Department':M iv-; **- 11 as Director of Product Sales. V*': : ,12 Q How long were you in that Job? 13 A Until sometime either late winter or early 14 spring of 19^8, 15 Q l ties there? And what were your duties and responsibili 17 A I had the responsibility for developing 18 marketing strategies and pricing for all of our products. ** ** 19 Q That included everything, I guess? 20 A Everything. 21 } Now, would that include 2,4,5 T? 22 A Yes. 23 Q Okay. After that where did you go, sir? 24 A I stayed in the AgriculturalDivision, but 25 my responsibility changed. I was the Director of International JAMES MAY REPORTING SERVICE 1 *9 Q 'v * 1 Marketing. 2 ^ Okay, How long were you in that Job7 3 * Until the spring of 1970. 4 Q !'*". Okay. And what were your duties and respon5 sibilities there? 6 A. I had the responsibility for our product 7 sales everywhere except the United States. 8 Q That was all your international market, 9 right? .fv 10 A. (Nods head affirmatively.) -v/.-'.Vi'V.;/vT`4' 11 Q Okay. In the spring of *70 where did; yougp!s-V*' - yy.-` ,-.7. 12 A. I stayed right where I was, but I $$an* the,: -r-.-^:T-yr,--i-Ti-rv'T*7v -*- 13 Director of International Operations, which meant that in 14 addition to marketing I had responsibility for manufacturing 15 the whole business, outside the United States. 16 Q That included marketing or sales and manu- 17 facturing? 18 A. Uh huh (yes) . 19 3 How long were you in that Job? Again, that 20 would be outside the United States, of course? . .1: 21 A. ,J Yes. I was in that Job from, I guess, 22 until -- I had a change in assignments in there from the 23 period *72 to *7^, I had Beveral other Jobs, and not so 24 much with change of title but Just a change of responsi- 25 bllities. JAMES MAY REPORTING SERVICE 13 1 Okay, In other words, you were there until 2 3 '*iiiC/.V;v? 4 V: <.;v. Q About what part of *74? Spring or summer? 5 A Spring, I believe. 6 Q All right. How did the Job change? We 7 talked about you had the marketing and the operations. 8 A It was broadened to include some domestic 9 responsibilities also as well as international. Primarfly^ 10 in the area of planning manufacturing capacities and^thia'*-'.^' 11 type thing. 12 Q Okay. In other words, increasing the'pro 13 duction even in the United States? 14 A Well, the problem was that we had difficulty 15 balancing production to meet both international needs and l domestic needs, and since the seasons in various parts of 17 the world, the agricultural seasons, are different, It took 18 some planning to make sure we had the right thing at the 19 right time.; 20 Q- I see. In '74 where did you go? 21 A Went to the New Enterprise Division, 22 Q Okay. And how long were you in that? 23 A Until the fall of 1977. 24 Q And what was your position? 25 A I was Director of New Business Development. JAMES MAY REPORTING SERVICE 14 V \, 1 a"* . a What was this New Enterprise? It was a group that was chartered to hope- 3 i k ^ f \ i l l ^ :S ^ ^ iie > n a a x ito Into the new businesses, non-traditional r-\~:r- V " S ' r , *'>. .*:*^: . 4 types;' 5 <a 6 for them? Making new products and developing a market 7 A. Well, looking for new market opportunities 8 but away from our traditional lines of business. 9 Q, Can you give me an example of what Vdu^re *% . io talking about? & *V 11 A. Yes. One of the businesses I developed wasv 12 ,- a line of gas separation equipment now marketed under .ttteA.fc 13 trade name Prism. 14 4 After the fall of *77 where did you go? 15 A. I moved into a corporate group, the 16 Environmental Policy Staff. 17 a Okay. How long were you in that group? 18 A. I still am. 19 q -j t Okay. Who all is a member of the Environ- \ 20 mental Policy Staff, sir? 21 A. At the time I Joined It? * 22 4 Uh huh (yes). 23 A. It was Mr. Throdahl, thatfs T-h-r-o-d-a-h-1, 24 who is Senior Vice-President for Environmental Policy; there 25 was a gentleman whofs since retired, had responsibility for JAMES MAY REPORTING SERVICE 15 1 the implementation within Monsanto of the newly passed Toxic 'ft--- 'r / g t . 2 ^Substance a iContro1 Act 3 'IV'*tv*:.. *r- - 4 -- , -i-"' What was his name? i.mtK '* '' A Winthrop Corey. And there was a fellow by 5 the name of Dick Sayers, who was the Internal Director of 6 Compliance with Environmental Regulations. He was the 7 oversight function at th corporate level. 8 a Anyone else when you first went in there? 9 A No. That was it. 10 Q Just those three? 11 A Plus Mr. Throdahl. 12 Q You're still on that staff, right?;,*,-r-` . A '^^. 13 A Uh huh (yes). 14 Or Who has since come and gone? 15 A Well, Corey and Sayers are both gone, both l retired. The gentlemen that have come since then are Will 17 Carpenter, Director of Regulatory Management; Mr. Tom Evans, 18 who*s Regulatory Director for OSHA Compliance; there's 19 .Mr. Condray, who took Mr. Corey's place on TSCA, There's 20 Mr. Furley, who's now in charge of Solid Waste Regulatory 21 Management; Mr. Malek, who's in charge of the Water Regula 22 tions; and Mr. Jessee, who's now in charge of Air Regulation!! 23 Q What does the Environmental Policy Staff, 24 Just generally, what is their function? 25 A Well, their function is to insure for the JAMES MAY REPORTING SERVICE 16 ipl % V s.corpor&tlon that we are doing what's necessary to be In coffipllanoe wlth the various environmental regulations and to observe the things that are happening In Washington and 4 that are likely to Impact us In the future. 5 d Okay. Now, were you folks responsible for 6 putting Into effect what has been mentioned as MEHX? 7 A. Actually, no. That was part of the function 8 of the Department of Medicine and Environmental Health, 9 which also reported to Mr. Throdah 1. 10 d In other words, Throdahl was the head and* ' 11 the other fellows were members of that staff, right?.- ' 12 A. Well, all the people I have mentioned by 13 name were members of the Environmental Policy Staff, cor 14 rect. The Department of Medicine and Environmental Health 15 was separate, co-equal, if you will, reporting to Mr. 16 Throdahl. 17 d They were lateral, then? 18 A. Uh huh (yes). 19 Q And they put into effect MEHI, right? 20 A. Correct. 21 d Okay. Would you have had any input into 22 that? 23 A. From time to time on an advisory basis. 24 d Tell us what the MEHI stands for? 25 A. Itfs Monsanto Environmental Health Information JAMES MAY REPORTING SERVICE iv 2 A system? 3 A system. 4 And did they contract with Stamford Research 5 Institute to do some work? 6 A I don't know, 7 Q, Well, let me ask you this, did they bring 8 in or computerize various data involving materials, toxicity, 9 work exposure? 10 MR. LOVE: Can I ask, when you sayj 11 "they," who are you talking about? 12 Q Well, would be DMEH and MEHIT 13 A That was the whole purpose of the MEHI 14 System was to get the data In a place where it could be 15 readily handled in terms of being able to find It and l retrieve it. 17 Q Is it on a computer system? 18 A It is, itfs not completely full, up fully 19 yet 20 Was the Nitro Plant one of the first plants 21 to go online? 22 A One of the first, perhaps. 23 Q 24 complete? Okay. Do you know whether or not It's 25 A I don't believe It's still complete, no. JAMES MAY REPORTING SERVICE 18 @% Do you know what has to be done yet? 3 you mentioned in '64 to f68 you were 4 `Director of Sales in the Marketing Division? 5 A. Marketing Department, yes. 6 Q And at that period of time you were selling 7 products that came from Nitro, right, to the government? 8 A. Yes, among other products. 9 d And did you manufacture at Nitro 2,4*5 (" W " ' 10 trichlorophenoxyacetic acid? '- ' 11 A Yes. V. 12 Q Did you manufacture at that period of time -; 13 any 2,4,5 T anyplace else? 14 A No. 15 Okay. At Monsanto's Nitro Plant did you 16 manufacture any 2,4 dichlorophenoxyacetic acid, 2,4 D? 17 A No. 18 ^ Where did the company manufacture 2,4 D? 19 A''-.' The William G. Krummrich Plant. 20 Q Okay. You'refamiliar with a term Agent 21 Orange, I take it? 22 A Yes. 23 Q Am I correct in saying that Agent Orange 24 is a 50 percent component of 2,4,5 T and 2,4 D? 25 A Yes, expressed as theiresters. JAMES MAY REPORTING SERVICE 1 Where waa this put together to be sent to 2. \ V ^ ';/.V V ^ / ; : & ; , ^ r 3 for whatever use they used it? To Krummrich. 4 Q In Krummrich? 5 A. (Nods head affirmatively.) Q In other words, you manufactured the 2,4,5 T, 7 brought it to Krummrich and it was placed -- 8 A. It was esterified and mixed. 9 'Q> 10 done at? 11 A. 12 Q Do you remember what department that"wav t& `j f v . > -r yZTW - No. '-A. Do you remember when this company q u i t ^ 13 manufacturing 2,*1,5 T? 14 A. When Monsanto quit manufacturing? 15 Q Yes. 16 A. I believe it was 1970. 17 Q Now, while you were in that position of 18 Director of International Marketing in the Agricultural 19 Department,''you would have been out of anything that had 20 to do with 2,4,5 T, wouldn't you? ^ 21 A Yes, 22 Q Now, from '6*1 to '68 did you have any 23 knowledge about the 2,4,5 T operation's causing the impurity 24 TCDD being made? 25 A. No. JAMES MAY REPORTING SERVICE 20 $* 1 Q In your job in marketing sales, Director of A- V. 2 ;<.;^lai(vdldl'$u deal directly with the government or indirectl y? 3 A I'm not sure what you mean by "directly." 4 a Well, I mean -- 5 A Solicitation for bid came to my desk? 6 Q Yes. 7 A Yes. 8 Q Did the government have any specifications 9 in regard to the sale of Agent Orange? 10 A What do you mean by s p e c i f i c a t i o n s ? : ' A 11 & Well, what did they prescribe that that 12 stuff do or not do? 'k'- : - 13 A That it be as identified, a fifty-fifty 14 mixture of the esters and that, as I recall, there were 15 specifications on the amount of free acid unesterifled, the 16 amount of water present, that type of thing. 17 Q Was there any qualifications or restriction, 18 if you will, on the amount of TCDD that could be in Agent 19 Orange? 20 A No, none that I'm aware of. 21 Q Were you aware at that point in time that 22 your 2,4,5 T was causing TCDD? 23 A No, 3ir. / 24 Q Well, let me ask you this, when did you 25 learn that your operation there at Nitro, the 2,4,5 T JAMES MAY REPO RTING SERVICE 21 4 tV > 1 process, was causing TCDD? 2 wy recollection is that X didn't even know 3 :-r-TCDD.: until ""'heard about it after I was out of that Job in -V'V. x'ft\-is * > ' > 4 5 Q Can you give me a time frame after that? 6 A. No, I can't. 7 ft Was it in the '70's? 8 A. I recall hearing about the identification 9 of the isomer sometime around 1969, *70, someplace;)i\there. V 10 ft *69 or '70? 11 A. Best recollection. ;- 12 Q From T6^4 to *68 were you made award-of any 13 health problems that the workers in that process were having^ i 14 A. Only apocryphally I had heard we had the 15 upset in '^9, a number of people had developed a rash called 16 chloracne and periodically we would have a case of chloracne. 17 some cases of chloracne, but, again, apocryphally the ir.ci- 18 dence was drastically going down. 19 4 No one in the Medical Department or Analyti- - 20 cal Department told you anything about what was causing it, 21 right? 22 A No. As a matter of fact, I don't think 23 anybody knew. .They knew there was a chloracnegen in there, 24 but the identity of it was not known, at least, as far as I 25 know. f JAMES MAY REPORTING SERVICE 22 1 Wasn't the chloracnegen identified in 1957. 2 `-7I Jt l "1 3 V3V:*' V';.- /. I don't know. 4 4 Are you familiar with a study by Kimmig and 5 Schulz that isolated the isomer? A Not as far as I know. 7 4 Were you ever told or did you ever learn 8 during that period of time or thereafter that TCDD causes 9 other illness besides chloracne? **'* f r *:*! *V iV * 10 How long is thereafter? - V .V *V ' ` ` v a / . s . , r-> V - * * - 11 4 Well, up to the present time, I guessv -.y?. 12 A I have heard speculations, but I ha^^qu^lly 13 heard that other than chloracne that appears to be the only 14 medical problem. I do not know first-hand knowledge, 15 4 Now, have you ever been a member of the 16 group calling themselves the Nitro Health Study Task Force? 17 A Yes. 18 4 When did you become a member of that body? 19 A When it was formed. 20 4 And about when was it formed? 21 A Late 1977 or early 1978. 22 4 What was the reason for its formation? 23 A Well, as I recall, our^Director of Medicine 24 4 That was who at the time? 25 A Dr. George Roush. JAMES MAY REPORTING SERVICE 22 $ He is still the Director, right? Uh huh (yes). He was contacted by Dr. 3 who asked if we would allow him to go in 4 arid update the health status of the workers who had been 5 involved in the 1949 incident which he had seen profession 6 ally at the time. 7 Q All right. Now, let me ask you this, there 8 were three studies done, *49, *50 and f53. Are you familiar 9 with those? --tV 10 A I've heard about them. ` Y.; * ^* 11 Cl You know how many was seen or looked: at by 12 him in the '53 study? -V.;, 13 A I don't have any idea. 14 Q Suskind then some -- what did you say the 15 date was? 16 A Late '77, early *78. 17 Q He came to Monsanto and wanted to do what, 18 now? 19 *& He wanted to do an update on the physical 20 ^ * status, the:;hmedical status from those workers in the '19 21 incident. 22 Q Then it would be the people -- he saw four 23 in *49 and, I think, six in f50? 24 . A He wanted all the people that were there. 25 Q He wanted to do all of the people? JAMES MAY REPORTING SERVICE 24 --* \ 1 1 (Nods head affirmatively.) 2 '} It was not Just a situation that he wanted * 3 ). td&ithfr-thirty-seven? C'i -f /* *vVvii'V v **!,,, ^ * ; , 1' ,v.W-:,-ft.... 'v?}y 4 A If thirty-seven was the number, no. He 5 wanted to do everybody. 6 Q All right. And everybody that was in the 7 plant or retired, or what group we talking about? 8 A Well, as it finally turned out, we tried to 9 get everybody who was In the plant at that time, 10 tir., * v , / -jf . O not, to come back and be examined by Dr. Suskind ahfi:the.%#& 11 team that he had put together. *7i> 12 Q Did Monsanto furnish him medical d^a.-cuid" ^ 13 exposure data concerning this study? 14 A He was furnished medical records, to my 15 knowledge, and through work histories we Identified indi 1 viduals who had ever been involved in the manufacture or 17 handling of 2,4,5 T. 18 Q Exposure data, work history, exposure data, 19 right? -,:*jv*' 20 A Work histories and exposure to 2,4,5 T, 21 yes, sir. 22 a Of course, that would come out of MEHI, 23 right? 24 A If this were a perfect world, yes. In fact, 25 it wasn't. MEHI wasn't up yet and they had to go in and JAMES MAY REPORTING SERVICE 25 deal with hard copy records. S'*:=*-**. No w , Selikoff, you ever hear of him? A. . Certainly. Q He did a study under the auspices of at least one organization, Steelworkers, Isn't that right?. A. That's right. (1 As either a member of theEnvironmental Policy Staff or the Nitro Health Study TaskForce. Did you have any Involvement In dealing with Dr. Sellkoff?.^ ;/-,. . A. Me personally, no. Q Do you know what data he was afforded as. far as the past medical history of the people he saw? - -. A My recollection was that he didn't ask for any medical histories. He asked for work histories on people that had been exposed to 2,4,5 T, and I believe we gave him employee lists. Q Okay. Did you give him -- you say employee lists or people that had work histories of having worked in 2,4,5 T, is that what you gave him? A That's what I believe we gave him. Ve gave him what he asked for. Q Now, Suskind came in to do this study, and was it he that wanted to do everybody again, is that it? A Yeah. Dr. Suskind and Dr. Selikoff were both members, are still, both members of a World Health JAMES MAY REPORTING SERVICE 2 8 i i. l 2% ! Organization group that was studying the Seveso incident in --What^Su8kind wanted to do was to go hack and look at 3 V tha population that had been involved in the 1949 incident 4 because that was the oldest population that anybody was 5 aware of that had been exposed to this chloracnegen. Then 6 as things usually happen, as he began to get into it, he 7 wanted to do more and more and more, and we were interested 8 also in looking at the 2,4,5 T exposures; and so by mutual 9 consent he expanded and went on with the study. VI:.. -A - ,*,*/ ` * * 10 0, All right. Who was to be in control of. that 11 study? Monsanto or Susklnd? ; .V' 12 A. Dr. Suskind. 13 Q Arid you're sure about that? 14 A. Yes, I'm sure about it. 15 Q. Okay. And, I take It from the records, that 16 he saw a.total of 436 people between June 11th and June 18th 17 of 1979, isn't that correct? 18 A. If that's the number. I don't know. 19 Q . Now, have you seen or been privy to any of 20 the raw data that he generated from that study? 21 - A. No, I've not. To my knowledge, nobody from 22 Monsanto has. , 23 Q Have you seen or been privy to any prelimi- 24 nary reports that he has given? 25 A. Only very broad summary. Much as he gave JAMES MAY REPORTING SERVICE 27 1 In Salzburg, Austria, last November. 2 Okay. Was this a preliminary draft or drafts 3 ^ithiat^'h/wa^looklng at to submit It to a Journal for peer *'-'>*' ...... ' - 4 review? 5 A To my knowledge, he has nothing written up 6 In journal format yet. He keeps saying h e 's going to. 7 Q, Did you attend any meetings with him either 8 at World Headquarters here or at Kettering concerning this 9 project? 10 A Not specifically concerning this project-. t-X 11 I attended one meeting with him at Kettering, I don*t 0- 12 remember exactly when it was, but it was myself, D r Roush,. 13 the president of the local union from the Nitro Plant and 14 an official from the International Steelworkers. The pur 15 pose was -- this was by way of request of the steelworkers 16 who were concerned that they had never gotten any of Dr. 17 Selikoff's and they wanted to discuss protocol design for, 18 perhaps, another health study. 19 d ----- And when was that? Do you have any idea? 20 182? 21 A No. It was earlier than that. May have 22 been *8 0 . 23 Q You have any meetings with him where you 24 were there in *82? 25 A N o . JAMES MAY REPORTING SERVICE 28 vt- 1 2 How about '81? No. That's the only time I ever laid eyes 3 4 Q Did he give you a .copy of this broad summary 5 that you have talked about? 6 A. No. I 've not seen any hard copy. I have 7 been told. Matter of fact, I 've never heard from Dr. Sus- 8 kind In broad summary. I 've heard from other people from 9 Suskind. I read the piece he gave at Salzburg, but that's , 10 a one-page piece. That, by the way, was just published*,'.- 11 Q, What was it published In, sir? 12 A. I don't remember the name of the Journal-, 13 but it was a proceedings of the meeting. 14 Q, That's Salzburg? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q That was under who? Who put It on? 17 A. I don't know who was the sponsoring organi 18 zation. It probably might have been WHO because a lot of 19 the papers-.had to do with Seveso. 20 Q Can you tell me what findings he gave that 21 group, if any? 22 A. The piece that I read wa3 so vague that 23 basically the only conclusion you could come to was he 24 found chloracne. He spoke nothing more about the general 25 physical. JAMES MAY REPORTING SERVICE 1 Find any liver problem? 2 I don't think there was anything mentioned 3' ''..Vi- V ' 4 "V Peripheral neuropathy? 5 Not that I recall. 6 Q Circulatory disease? 7 A. I don't recall he ever dealt with those. 8 Q, In other words, the only medical term you 9 recall from his proceedings was -- -vv': 10 A. -- chloracne. h & v; : ' - <* f ' -V* tci. - ' - - . V* . - n (Whereupon a short recess was taken, 12 after which the following proceedings were:;:had. V . .. > X \ 13 Q I don't think we discussed, we did to a 14 certain degree, but what was the purpose of the Nitro Health 15 Study Task Force? l A. Well, the initial purpose was to facilitate 17 the Suskind study, to pull together data that Suskind wanted, 18 to make 3ure he had a place to carry out the exams, how we 19 would communicate with our employees. Just all the 20 things that go into it. The MEHI System was in the process 21 of being brought up. We recognized when it got fully oper 22 able, we would probably be doing this sort of thing in other 23 places. So the Nitro Task Force was put together essenti 24 ally as a prototype of things that we might do later on in 25 other places. Consequently, It probably got a little JAMES MAY REPORTING SERVICE 30 1 overstaffed. .I"'.. "vJVm 2 -'.V-&-V v Let me ask you this, was that Its sole 3 function? . 4 A. Sole function was the corporate facilitation 5 of the Nltro study, yes. 6 Q Had no other function, as far as you*re 7 concerned? 8 A. None other than, as X say, would be a proto 9 type of things we might do later. 10 Q And that dealt with, as you've said> getting n together the data that had enough facilities for Suskind to 12 do this study? 13 A Well, yeah. It was that and since most of 14 the things that we would be doing, looking at various work 15 force populations around the corporation, it was to bring 1 the manufacturing community in, it was to bring the communis 17 cations community'in because we had to communicate to all 18 sorts of constituents, as our employees and employees' 19 families. 20 Q You had never done that prior to this task 21 force, right? 22 A We had obviously done occupational' health 23 studies before, but we have never attempted one on such a 24 scale. 25 Q Did you do any work on a study called JAMES MAY REPORTING SERVICE 31 1 Suskind and Zack Mortality Study? 2 Did I do any, no. 3 Have you read it-?- - 4 A Yes. \ 5 Q That came out in the Journal of Occupational 6 Medicine in January of *80, X think, correct? . 7 A. Sometime around there. 8 Q Do you know anything about the validity of 9 that study, whether it w ^ls accurate? : j * : * '*' .* - .-j 10 A. I assume It -is. It was peer reviewed in a-> 11 reputable Journal. 12 Q And tremendous amounts of publicity were- 13 generated out of this Nitro Task Force, Health Study Task 14 Force, on that, isn't that right? 15 A I'm not 'sure I'd say tremendous amounts. 1 Q You told the world, didn't you? 17 A Sure. Published it in public literature. 18 Q You familiar with a subsequent mortality 19 study done by Zack and Qaffey that was in about October of 20 '80? 21 A Yes. 22 Q Are you familiar or doyou know about the 23 accuracy of it? You assume it's accurate also? 24 A Yes. 25 Q Neither of these studieshave you looked at JAMES MAY REPORTING SERVICE 32 1 the raw data have you? ] 2 3 And, again, this task force publicized this 4 to ill?public, did it not? 5 A We have generally made every health study that we ever performed public. We haven't yet made the 7 final Suskind study made public because we haven't got the 8 report. 9 4 That's over four years since you did^the_\ 10 exams on those people, isn't it? 'jf S. t' 'yx* * * . .s' 11 A Yeah. .w , - 12 4 You have any knowledge of why that..study.- 13 hasn't been brought forward? 14 A I have no specific knowledge other than 15 Dr. Suskind is not the best manager in the world and he gets l intrigued in other things and goes off and leaves things 17 unfinished. 18 Q Monsanto pay money to get that study done? 19 .ir ';.: Yes. 20 4 Do you have any idea what the amount was? 21 A Oh, I think it was somewhere $150, $200,000. 22 4 Did any other organization contribute to 23 that also? * -- 24 A Not that I'm aware of. Kettering may have 25 put some money into it. JAMES MAY REPORTING SERVICE 33 Vf. ft Do you know from documents or from what you company that Dr. Susklnd has done studies or' oTMany since 19**9? v<;cAr^^.. 4 Yes, I knew that. 5 ft Did you know that he testified in some work 6 men's compensation hearings in '5*1 and '55, *56, *57 for 7 the company? 8 A. No. 9 ft Do you know when your company 10 of analyzing 2,it,5 T for TCDD? 11 A. No, I don't. X.?l. v-:; 12 ft You were never made aware through any docu- 13 ments or anything like that when they could test for that? 14 A. Nothing that I canrecall, no. 15 ft Would you be given copies of documents 16 relating to dioxin -- we'll use that term for TCDD -- from 17 '64 to *68? 18 A. X don't recall any. 19 ft Prom your analytical people? * 20 A. No. See, that was so far out of my area of 21 responsibility that I might or might not be copied. I 22 don't recall. ' 23 ft 24 Wheeler? Okay. You remember a fellow named Elmer 25 A. Yes. JAMES MAY REPORTING SERVICE 3* What type work did he do, generally, for Elmer was, I guess, a self-trained industrial hygienist in the days when there weren't that many of them, d Has the Selikoff study ever came out? A. Not that I'm aware of, no. d But it has been the company's position, has it not, all the way through that the only thing that they found Is chloracne, right? r/<Wr- A. That was in the general summary thwv-was,-- - w A ---:'-.- . ,3r;:. given the company by Dr. Suskind. ^ d Let me ask you about -- it may not(b> your field of expertise, I don't know -- on this control group that they used in the Suskind morbidity study done in June of *79, what type of control did they use, do you recall? A. I don't know.. I'm not an epidemiologist, d So whatever type it was, you wouldn't know one way or another whether it was a good one, right? I personally wouldn't know, d Do you recall whether or not you from time to time, other than the time you said you went to see Suskind, had any communication with him concerning the study itself? A. No. The only time I met Dr. Suskind or spoke to Dr. Suskind was the time I mentioned. JAMES MAY REPORTING SERVICE 35 % 1 1. 2- 4 You know whether any other member of the '\?prce -- . .. 3 x To my knowledge, none- of the Nitro Task 4 Force communicated with Dr. Suskind. 5 Q How about DMEH? 6 A. Yes. I know that from time to time we have 7 gone back to Suskind, DMEH has gone back to Suskind, and 8 asked him where the hell the report is. 9Q 10 right? 11 A. Okay. "What have you done with myjfflpnoy-*-1?--: *.:*>*;v/ - '. A 'y ' - ' ] ' - .V-fi:*'~.-Vv-. Well, as a matter of fact, it's gotten.down* 12 to that. We withheld the last payment for some pe:&'od o 13 time. 14 Q You know anything about a meeting with 15 Elmer Wheeler with executives from BASF prior to 1956? 16 A. No. 17 Q Let me see if I'm clear on this. When 18 Monsanto made the agreement with Suskind and Kettering, he 19 was to be in charge of this study, is that correct? 20 A. That 21 Q And 22 A Yes. 23 MRR.. PRATT : Okay. That1s all. 24 25 William J. MoCarville JAMES MAY REPORTING SERVICE I i! 2 SSTTBir0P-titlHOIS ) %: ) SS 3 county op Madison ) 4 5 6 7 I, M. JOY SPRINGER, a Notary Public, duly 8 commissioned and qualified in and for the County of Madison, 9 State of Illinois, do hereby certify that pursuant.;to.notice ;V , 1* * r, 10 came before me on the 12th day of July, 1983, at 11 Radisson Hotel, Room 215, 9th Street and Convention`Flasa, 12 St. Louis, Missouri, WILLIAM J. MC CARVILLE, who was-.by-me T3 duly sworn to testify to the truth and nothing but the truth 14 of his knowledge touching and concerning the matters in 15 controversy in this case; that he was thereupon carefully 16 examined upon oath, and his examination reduced to writing 17 under my supervision; that the deposition Is a true record 18 of the testimony given by the witness; and signature of the 19 witness wai: not waived by agreement of counsel. 20 I FURTHER CERTIFY that I am neither attorney 21 nor counsel for nor related to nor employed by any of the 22 parties to the action in which this deposition Is taken; 23 and further, that I am not a relative or employee of any attorney and counsel employed by the parties hereto, or financially Interested in the action. JAMES MAY REPORTING SERVICE 37 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 IB 1* *X 20 21 22 23 24 25 IN WITNESS WHEREOF, I have hereunto set ay ed'ay notarial seal on this day of Notary Public with for the County of In the State of II '^fe * JAMES MAY REPORTING SERVICE \ 38