Document oDZKV1aL1v36qwQjZJ21Mxo8o

24 25 26 27 00021:01 02 03 04 Q. Okay. And the other people that are copied on the memo of November 10th, 1978, could you just briefly tell us their names and what their titles at the plant were? A. H. K. Decker was my boss. He was the superintendent, maintenance superintendent. 04 how that worked. Did each department like welders or 05 pipe fitters or insulators have their own supervisor? 06 A. Well, yes and no. I mean, it's hard to 07 really. 08 Q. All right. 09 A. There's hourly supervisors and salary 10 supervi sors -11 Q. How many different -12 A. -- and each -- well, go ahead. 13 Q. How many different supervisors reported to 14 Homer Decker? 15 A. Oh, let's see. I would say about six -16 Q. And -17 A. -- or seven. a**** 17 Q. Did Mr. Decker ever have meetings where he 18 got all of his supervisors together and talked to 19 y'all? 20 A. Right. 21 Q. At any of those meetings, do you remember 22 the subject of asbestos coming up? 23 A. Not too often. 24 Q. Okay. When is the first time you remember 25 the subject of asbestos coming up? 00026:01 02 03 04 05 06 07 08 09 10 A. I really don't. Q. You don't remember that happened? A. No. Q. Okay. So, it's a true statement that at the meetings that your boss, Mr. Decker, the maintenance supervisor who was over, I guess, all the maintenance crafts -- A. Right. Q. -- you don't remember the subject of asbestos or its hazards coming up? t t s i 13 A. No.  03 Q. (BY MR. CHANDLER) You don't remember as you 04 sit here today, sir, after speaking four or five hours 05 with your lawyers -- 09 Q. (BY MR. CHANDLER) -- a meeting where your 10 boss, the maintenance supervisor, had a meeting with 11 all the supervisors that reported to him and discussed 12 the hazards of asbestos? 15 Q. (BY MR. CHANDLER) Is that fair? Is that a 16 true statement? 17 A. I do not remember. 18 Q. Okay. Fair enough. And because you were 19 the trade that worked the most with asbestos over all 20 those crafts, that is something that would have stuck 21 out in your mind, do you think? 23 24 25 26 27 00028:01 02 A. Probably. Q. (BY MR. CHANDLER) All right. I mean, could -- you would understand a heavy equipment I operator not paying attention to that kind of information, right? 04 A. Right. 05 Q. (BY MR. CHANDLER) But you as the supervisor 06 of insulators who worked with asbestos, that's the 07 kind of thing that would have been very relevant to 08 you? 09 A. Right. 22 A. 23 Q. 24 in the 25 boiler w* 04 A. 05 Q. 06 A. 07 Q. 08 A. 09 Q. 10 A. 11 Q. 12 think 13 A. Say that again. Yes, sir. What input if any, did you have estos on hot steam for example, at Union Carbide? I had input into it, that's for sure; but - (BY MR. CHANDLER) In what way? In the way of suggestion. Suggesting the type or brand or both? Yeah, right. Both of those? Yes. What asbestos-containing insulation did you ed best for your applications? All of them worked good. 05 Q. (BY MR. CHANDLER) Have you -- can you 06 identify for us, have you ever seen a document that 07 went to an actual insulator at Union Carbide telling 08 him what kind of respirator he needed to wear? 09 A. No. 10 Q. All right. Is the kind of -- well, if a man  11 got a respirator at Union Carbide, did he have to sign 12 for it? 13 A. Yeah. 14 Q. All right. Because he probably had to 15 return it, too, right? 16 A. Well, no. 17 Q. What was that - 18 A. Usually his supervisor would get them for 19 them. 20 Q. 21 A. 22 Q. So, the man -- he would not sign for it? He personally wouldn't, no. Would the supervisor sign for it? 23 A. Probably, yeah. 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 00050:01 02 03 04 05 06 07 08 Q. Do you ever remember it being a requirement for a Union Carbide insulator to get an annual chest x-ray? A. No. Q. All right. Do you ever remember it being a requirement for a Union Carbide insulator to get an annual physical exam? A. No. Q. Did you ever tell your insulators, "I am requiring you, even though the company doesn't, to go get an annual physical exam"? A. No. Q. Did you ever tell your insulators as their supervisor, even though it wasn't Union Carbide policy, "Go get an annual chest x-ray"? 11 A. No. 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 00200:01 02 03 04 Q. So, the way I'm looking at No. 23 is men who are currently working in the insulation department and Union Carbide is doing an annual survey for their health, consistent with which you tell us their policy is, right? A. Yeah, right. Q. Now, did Union Carbide have a policy that if an insulator demonstrated impaired breathing capacity he had to be removed from the insulation - MR. JORDAN: Object to the form of the 06 Q. (BY MR. CHANDLER) -- trade? 07 A. If he couldn't wear a respirator. 08 Q. But what if his breathing tests were 09 abnormal? And I don't care that you know what the 10 abnormal is. 11 A. Yeah. 14 Was there a policy that if an insulator 15 demonstrated abnormal breathing tests on pulmonary 16 function exam where you blow into a tube that you've 17 talked to us about - 18 A. Uh-huh, yeah.  19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 00201:01 02 03 04 05 06 07 08 09 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 00202:01 02 03 04 05 06 07 08 09 10 11 12 13 14 15 Q. -- that he had to be taken out of the insulation trade? A. I don't know. Q. You never knew of such a policy? A. No. Q. All right. at that, please? Exhibit No. 22, would you look A. Okay. That's this one. Q. I believe you went through this with Union Carbide's lawyer, and what Exhibit No. 22 tells us is you've got a list of insulators who took breathing tests based on vital capacity - A. Yeah. Q. -- and forced expiratory volume, right? A. Q. A. Q. percent? A. Q. percent, A. Q. Correct. Now, look at No. 0101. You see him? Sure do. And his vital capacity is 59, right, Yeah. And his forced expiratory volume is 61 right? Correct. I guess that's what it is. In fact, that's what you've told Mr. Jordan it is. A. Q. mean. A. Q. numbers A. These are breathing test results, aren't they? Yeah. I'm not asking you tointerpretwhat they Right. I'm just asking you to agree that those are what Union Carbide reports they are. Okay. Q. Union Carbide never made up breathing tests for their employees, did they? A. Right, right, right. Q. If they did make up breathingtests for their employees, they certainly wouldn't make up breathing tests that showed abnormal results, would they? A. I don't know what's abnormal. Q. Okay. Has anybody ever communicated to you in the medical department at Union Carbide what an abnormal breathing test is? A. Nope. Q. All right. You agree that you were in charge of the health and safety of the insulators that worked for you, right? 18 A. To a degree. 23 24 25 26 27 00203:01 02 03 04 Q. Now, if you'll look on Exhibit No. 23 for me, No. 0101 is still working as an insulator some nine years after his breathing tests demonstrate 59 percent vital capacity and 61 percent forced expiratory volume, according t o Exhibits No. 22 and 23, right? A. Uh-huh, right.  05 Q. And we could go down this list; but I'll 06 save it for a medical doctor; but the bottom line is, 07 you never had a policy of which you're aware where 08 your insulators were removed from the insulation trade 09 if they demonstrated abnormal breathing tests? 12 A. That's correct. 13 Q. (BY MR. CHANDLER) Did you ever remove an 14 insulator from the insulation trade because he had 15 abnormal breathing tests? 16 A. No. 17 Q. Okay. And you would have been the one to 18 have removed him, right, as his boss? 19 A. I would have needed a lot of help. 20 Q. Right. But if an insulator was removed from 21 your crew, you would have been involved in the 22 process? 23 A. I would. 24 Q. All right. And you would have known about 25 it? 05 A. Yes. 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 00205:01 02 03 04 05 06 07 08 09 10 Q. Mr. Jordan, for Union Carbide, asked you whether you knew that visible clouds of asbestos dust presented a hazard, whether you knew that was true; and I believe your answer was no; is that fair? A. That's right. Q. Now, Union Carbide had sophisticated industrial hygienists, right? A. Yeah. Q. They know what they're doing, A. Yeah. Q. Good scientists? right? A. Correct. Q. If Union Carbide issues an asbestos toxicology report that they gave to customers and published to people, you would expect the information that they gave and published to be accurate, fair? A. Sure. Q. All right. Would you read for me the blocked out portion on what appears on Exhibit No. 16 to your deposition, the document entitled "Asbestos Toxicology Report"? 23 24 25 26 27 00206:01 02 03 04 05 06 A. "This concentration of dust is generally not visible in the average work area unless a beam of light causing a Tyndall effect is present. Usually the dust concentration must be from 8 to 10 million particles per cubic foot before its presence is visible in average lighting conditions." Q. Now, you knew that the highest level of dust present under any existing threshold limit value was 5 million particles per cubic foot, right?  09 A. You said dust. 10 Q. (BY MR. CHANDLER) Yes, sir. 11 A. (Witness shrugs shoulders) 12 Q. The highest level of -- what is the highest 13 threshold limit value you've ever known to apply to 14 dust-containing asbestos? 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 00207:01 02 03 04 05 06 07 08 09 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 00208:01 A. I don't know exactly. What was it? You tell me. Q. (BY MR. CHANDLER) Okay. If the Texas Department of Health says it was 5 million particles per cubic foot or if OSHA says it was 5 million particles per cubic foot - A. That's good enough. Q. -- would you disagree or agree? A. No, I wouldn't disagree. Q. Okay. All right. Sir, let me go back to some of the stuff in the beginning. You talked to us about the great family you raised; and how many kids did you have, sir? A. I had four. Q. What year was the first one born? A. 1945. Q. 1945. Sir, I want to direct your attention to what was marked in your deposition as Exhibit No. 4. It was the transactions of the National Safety Council, and what's the date of that document? A. '32. Q. That was13 years beforeyour first child was ever even born, wasn't it? A. You got it. Q. It was twenty some years before you ever stepped foot on a Union Carbide facility, wasn't it? A. Uh-huh. Q. Yes? A. Right. Q. Sir, did Dr. -- did Mr.Deese, the industrial hygienist; Dr. Dernehl; Dr. Joyner or anybody that you ever had discussions with about the hazards of asbestos ever tell you that Union Carbide as early as 1932 was aware of the disease asbestosis and the effects of inhaled mineral dust? A. No. 05 A. I hope to hell they did. 06 Q. You hope to hell they did.Okay. Sir, I 07 don't think there's any dispute in this case -- and if 08 there is, tell me -- that you knew as early as 1968 09 about the hazards of asbestos. Nobody disputes that, 10 right? 11 A. No. 12 Q. You personally as the insulation supervisor 13 knew asbestos could kill as early as 1968? 15 A. Yeah. 16 Q. (BY MR. CHANDLER) You knew as early as 1968  17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 00212:01 02 03 04 05 06 07 08 09 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 00213:01 02 03 04 05 06 07 08 09 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 that spouses, for example, were at risk of asbestos disease from the asbestos brought home on the clothes of their family members? A. Yes. Q. Okay. Sir, Union Carbide -- strike that. Let's talk about the different types of asbestos that were present in the facility. You told us there was -- there was Foamglas, and that was black and cellular? A. Say that again. Q. I want to talk about the different types of insulation -- thank you -- at Union Carbide's Texas City facility. A. Right. Q. One of the types was Foamglas? A. Correct. Q. And that was a black cellular product? A. Yes. Q. Very different than the Kaylo calcium silicate, would you agree? A. Very. Q. Looks very different? A. Very. Q. You would never confuse the two,would you? A. No. Q. Okay. Then there was fiberglass, and that looked very different than the Kaylo, right? A. Correct. Q. You would never confuse fiberglass for Kaylo? A. No. Q. You would never confuse fiberglass asbestos-containing insulation? A. No. for any Q. Then there was polyurethane? A. Right. Q. You certainly would never confuse polyurethane for asbestos insulation, would you ? A. No. Q. What did polyurethane insulation look like? A. It was an orange-yellowish type of -Q. Okay. Then there was mineral wool. What did mineral wool look like? A. Dark brownish. Q. Dark brownish? A. Yeah. Q. And the calcium silicate Kaylo product, that was a white, chalky-looking stuff, right? A. Correct. Q. You would never confuse mineral wool for Kaylo, would you? A. No. 1 iM 12 Q. (BY MR. CHANDLER) Okay. Then all of the 13 calcium silicate -- all of the calcium silicate 14 insulation prior to 1972 that you wanted to use and 15 did use was asbestos-containing? 16 A. Mostly, yes.  22 23 24 25 26 27 00216:01 02 Q. Which Pabco product was it your understanding was asbestos free prior to 1973? A. I don't know which. Q. Okay. Prior to 1973 -- and the reason you didn't use it was what? A. It was just too fragile. 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 00217:01 02 03 04 05 06 07 08 09 There was an insulation available to Union Carbide about which you had actual knowledge that did not contain asbestos that you could have used for the same applications on which asbestos insulation was used, true? A. Yeah. Q. All right. I guess it would have cost you more money to do that because it came broken up, you would have to buy more of it? A. That's exactly right. Q. And that's exactly why you didn't use it? A. It wasn't worth a damn. Q. But the reason you had to use it is because you had to buy a lot more of it because it would come broken up? A. That's correct. Q. All right. Did you -- but you recognized prior to 1973 that a nonasbestos insulation would have been safer for your men, right? 11 A. Of course. 12 Q. (BY MR. CHANDLER) Butyou chosenot to use 13 it because you would have had to buy more of it? 14 A. That's right. 15 Q. All right. 19 -- I wantto talk to you 16 about some, just briefly, of the OSHA regulations. 17 You told Mr. Jordan on the direct examination that 18 Union Carbide complied with OSHA's labeling 19 requirements. Do you recall that? 20 A. Uh-huh. 21 Q. What were OSHA's labeling requirements? 22 A. Put signs out. 23 Q. Put signs out where? 24 A. Around an area that you were working in that 25 asbestos was being handled. 26 27 01 Q. Oh. So, when you say "labeling," do you 02 mean Union Carbide put up signs when asbestos was 03 being worked with or just when it was present 04 somewhere? 05 A. No. When it was being worked with. 06 Q. Union Carbide never labeled the steam lines 07 that contained asbestos -08 A. Oh, no, no. 09 Q. -- did they? 10 A. No. 11 Q. No labeling like that ever occurred? 12 A. No. 13 Q. And Union Carbide never labeled any boxes or  14 bags of asbestos-containing products that would come 15 in with any label identifying them as 16 asbestos-containing, true? 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 00219:01 02 A. No. Q. Any product thatcontained asbestos or any product you had on hand that you had prior to 1972 - A. Yeah. Q. -- thatcontained asbestos, younever put a label on those products? A. No. 07 Q. (BY MR. CHANDLER) Signs were never put up 08 on asbestos-containing lines, true, marking which ones 09 were asbestos? 10 A. No. 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 00220:01 02 03 04 05 06 07 08 09 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 There were never any signs on the lines which had asbestos-containing insulation, right? A. That's right. Q. All right. There were never any signs in any part of a warehouse where asbestos insulation was stored identifying which part was asbestos and which part wasn't. A. No. Q. That's a true statement? A. True statement. Q. Okay. You talked to us about isolation, when asbestos was being, you know, removed or put on lines. What does that mean? What did you physically see happen? A. Isolation meant roping off an area -- Q. Okay. What else? A. -- with a tape that said "hazardous area" and all Q. A. tape -Q. A. that -You taped it? -- and then putting Okay. -- that says it was the signs injurious hanging on the to your health and breathing and all that stuff. And, of course, we bagged the material as it was being removed; and they were all labeled, too. Q. Okay. How did the rope stop the asbestos from going - A. It didn't. It would stop people from coming in the area. Q. But what about people who were outside the rope downwind? How did it stop them from being exposed? 23 A. No way of knowing. 24 Q. (BY MR. CHANDLER) Okay. Did you put up 25 plastic sheeting or anything to maintain the - 26 27  00221:01 02 03 04 05 06 07 08 09 10 11 12 13 14 15 A. Q. A. time. Q. Not at that time. When did you start plastic sheeting? I never did have to. That was after my Because -- and that would be 1980's? A. They started that, yeah. Q. Okay. So, at any time while you were at Union Carbide, they never enclosed the space? A. Q. rope? A. Q. asbestos No, no. Their isolation was solely limited to a That's right. And the rope did nothing to keep the contained, did it? A. That's correct. 23 Q. (BY MR. CHANDLER) Okay. Well, when did the 24 roping off start in your opinion? 25 A. It started in '72. 26 27 00224:01 02 Q Okay. You didn't start roping off in 1968? A No. 03 Q Why not? 04 A Who said to? 05 Q What do you mean by "who said to"? 06 A 07 Q What do you mean by that? 08 A Was there a law? 09 Q 10 off? Because there wasn't a law, you didn't rope 11 A There wasn't any reason to. 12 Q Okay. Well, you knew in 1968 that very 13 brief exposures could kill, right? 14 A Yeah. 15 Q Isn't that reason to? 16 A Who is going to define that? 17 Q Well, your own mind, sir, you as the 18 insulation supervisor, without regard to exactly what 19 fiber levels, knew that in 1968 very brief exposures 20 could kill. You've told us that countless times. 21 A. I did. i t s ts mmmmmmmm M*W**M 24 25 26 27 00225:01 02 03 04 05 06 07 08 09 10 11 12 13 Q. (BY MR. CHANDLER) Yet you did nothing to isolate for four years until the Federal Government finally made you to, right? A. That's correct. Q. years? You did nothing to wet it down for four A. That's right. Q. You did nothing to limit exposure to asbestos for those four years because you weren't required to do it by law? A. That's correct. Q. Okay. Sir, how many people died from exposure to asbestos in the four years from the time that you knew asbestos could kill and the time the Federal Government instituted 25 Q. Okay. You have seen with your own eyes mm  26 27 00228:01 02 03 04 05 workers like pipe fitters removing insulation? A. No. Are you talking about contractors? Q. No. Union Carbide pipe fitters removing insulation. You've seen that? A. I have. 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 00230:01 02 03 04 05 06 07 08 09 10 11 12 13 14 15 Q. (BY MR. CHANDLER) You supervised insulators, right? A. That's it. Q. So, follow my logic here: You were on the job while pipe fitters were present? A. Q. A. Q. worked Uh-huh. You supervised insulators? Right. Therefore, insulators and pipe on the same jobs together? fitters A. Q. A. would do Yeah, I guess you would say that. Okay. One would come in and work and the other the job and then the other one would come one back. Q. And what did the insulators do before the pipe fitters came in to clean up their mess? A. Very little. Q. Okay. So, the pipe fitter would be walking on all that insulation that was just removed? A. Possibly. Q. Stirring it up? A. Possibly. Q. Or he would kick it up? A. We're talking reality. 00231:01 02 03 04 I want to talk to you about the air monitoring data that Mr. Jordan showed you. I don't remember which exhibit it was, but it's in front of you. Would you look at the Union Carbide exhibits? 09 Q. (BY MR. CHANDLER) Since we've talked about 10 Boots Roberts, who the ladies and gentlemen of the 11 jury will undoubtedly have heard from, will you pull 12 to the one sample where Boots Roberts was doing some 13 work? 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 00232:01 02 03 04 A. Okay. Q. (BY MR. CHANDLER) Couldyoushow us anywhere on -- which exhibit is this by the way on the front page? A. It says 2. Q. Could you show us anywhere onExhibit 2 where Boots Roberts' industrial hygiene sample as referenced on the very last page, where it demonstrates that Boots is being sampled or his area is being sampled? Which one is this? A personal sample or an area sample? Can you even tell? mm 05 A. It would have to be an area sample -- a 18 Q. And where on Exhibit No. 2 does it say that 19 this was personal monitoring versus area monitoring? 20 A. Well, I'm asking you a question. How could 21 the insulation be removed without it being by a 22 person? Is it just going to fall off? 23 Q. No, sir. I agree. Mr. Roberts removed 24 thousands and thousands and thousands of feet of 25 insulation at Union Carbide. 22 Q. (BY MR. CHANDLER) You and I agree that 23 Mr. Roberts is removing the asbestos. 24 A. Okay. 25 Q. Here is my question -- 04 Q. Where on Exhibit 2, sir,does it say 05 Mr. Roberts is personally being sampled for asbestos? 06 A. It doesn't say it, per se. 07 Q. Doesn't say. It doesn'tsay whether it's 08 area sampled - 09 A. No. 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 00235:01 02 03 04 05 06 07 08 09 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 Q. Do you know that an area sample is a sample that could be 1 foot from the person or it could be 10 feet from the person? A. I know that. Q. Okay. Now, I've added up -- and you're free to look through this all you want. You told Mr. Jordan that Thermobestos was something you probably used 5 percent of the time, right? A. Yeah, I would say that. Q. Now, if you look at Exhibit No. 2 -- and we're going to show the jury the percentage of sampling done on Thermobestos versus Kaylo, and believe that they're going to find Thermobestos being sampled 47 percent of the time -- I is A. Uh-huh. Q. -- and Kaylo is being sampled 53 percent of the time. Do you have any reason -- if you want to count it up, count it up. A. I don't want tocount it. Q. Sir, that's a little more than a 5 percent representation by Thermobestos, isn't it? A. They don't make the usage in that -- go along with what you're saying. Q. So, we sampled it 47 percent of the time; but you're saying you only bought it 5 percent of the time? A. That might have been done on purpose, too. Q. Why? A. Because it's more dusty material. Q. Because youknewThermobestos was dustier? A. Yeah. 04 Q. If you're wetting down the product, you're 05 not having dust problems, though, are you? mm 06 A. Yeah. 04 05 06 07 08 09 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 00238:01 02 03 Q. And in 1972, it was still appropriate for Union Carbide -- or at least it was still their practice -- to reapply or reuse asbestos-containing insulation when it had to be removed to do maintenance and then you guys put it back on, didn't you? A. I don't know what they did. Q. Well, let's -- let's read, just like Mr. Jordan did, Exhibit No. 5 in the middle, "In essence this policy is as follows: The plant will not purchase or stock asbestos-containing insulating materials; however, asbestos-containing insulating materials will be reused when existing insulation is removed from a vessel or piping." Did I read that correctly? A. You read it. Q. Now, it also says your plant, Texas City have not as yet developed a policy regarding the use of asbestos-containing insulating materials, doesn't it? A. That's what it says. Q. And that's pretty consistent with what you've testified, that from '68 -- A. Yeah. Q. -- to '72 you didn't do anything? A. That's right. 05 06 07 08 09 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 00239:01 02 03 04 05 06 07 08 09 10 Q. (BY MR. CHANDLER) Okay. You agree that when insulation is going to be reused, you don't wet it down, do you? A. What was that? Q. If you're going to reuse the insulation you're taking off, you don't wet it down before you remove it? A. Yeah. Q. You agree with that statement? A. Sure. Q. All right. And when you put it back on after 1972, what you're doing is putting back on asbestos-containing insulation? A. What you're talking about, though, is a policy that's going on in, they say, in West Virginia, and not Texas City. Q. Actually, look at the paragraph before it. The paragraph just before it, sir -- - A. Yeah. Q. -- wherein you describe the policy, it "At March 6, 7, and 8 meeting of the Insulation says, Standards Team at Texas City" - A. Yeah. Q. -- "the team learned that each of thefour Gulf Coast plants had individually (unilaterally) studied the OSHA requirements and had made a decision regarding the individual plant's policy regarding the use of asbestos-containing insulating materials. In essence, the policy is as follows" - A. Okay. Q. -- that asbestos-containinginsulation will mm 11 be reused, right? 12 A. Yeah. 13 Q. That's the four Gulf Coast area 14 A. Uh-huh, right. 15 Q. Yes? That's Texas City, yes? 16 A. Correct. 17 Q. Seadrift, yes? 18 A. Right. 19 Q. Union Carbide gave them the asbestos? 22 A. Right. 00241:01 02 03 04 05 06 07 08 09 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 00242:01 Q. (BY MR. CHANDLER) Now, there is no question in your mind, based on the limited dust studies we have seen today, that asbestos-containing insulation could be, if done properly, removed so that exposures were below the threshold limit value, right? A. Could be. Q. Now, but in order to do that, special precautions had to be taken in order to ensure that threshold limit values for asbestos were not exceeded. Would you agree? A. Correct. Q. They were precautions like wetting it down, yes? A. Uh-huh, right. Q. Precautions like isolation, yes? A. Yes. Q. Precautions like vacuuming instead of sweeping, yes? A. Yes. Q. Those were all things that took a lot of time? A. Yes. Q. Okay. But if done safely and if done properly, asbestos-containing insulation can be removed under the appropriate circumstances and no one needs to die, right? 04 A. Can be, yes. 09 UCC Exhibit No. 8 is a memo dated 10 February 27, 1976, with a subject of "Coveralls for 11 Insulators," true? 12 A. Right, yes. 13 Q. Is 1976 the first time that your insulators 14 received coveralls, sir? 15 A. That's what I'm not sure of. I don't know. 16 Q. Okay. Do you know of any memo, policy, 17 letter reflecting coveralls being issued to insulators 18 prior to 1976? 19 A. No. 20 Q. Do you know how much asbestos was taken home 21 on the clothes of insulators prior to 1976 when this 22 policy went into effect? 23 A. No. mm  00244:01 02 03 04 05 06 A. I don't. Q. (BY MR. CHANDLER) Are anybody -- is anybody on Rapp Exhibit 8, Union Carbide Exhibit 8, dated February 27, 1976, an actual insulator, anybody that it went to or was copied to? A. No. 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 00249:01 02 03 Q. Okay. Did Union Carbide ever do a survey while you were there to identify which steam lines contained asbestos insulation versus which did not? A. Yes, yes. Q. When was that done? A. While I was there. Q. Okay. So, Union Carbide had in its hot little hands, in its possession a survey which told them exactly which lines contained asbestos and which didn't? A. Uh-huh, yeah. Q. And they never went out to the field to mark them, did they? 05 A. Never had -- no. 14 Q. Hey, Mr. Rapp, do you know all the 15 information that Union Carbide had in its file that 16 they did not share with Dr. Selikoff? 19 A. I don't have any idea. 20 Q. (BY MR. CHANDLER) Are you familiar with all 21 the lobbying efforts Union Carbide did, specifically 22 lobbying against Dr. Irving Selikoff's efforts? 25 ** -- A. Not at all. -- 3 M***tt*M*<M*<M*<*** 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 00257:01 02 03 04 05 06 Q. (BY MR. CHANDLER) When did you become aware of Dr. Irving Selikoff's study on insulators? A. Shoot. I never did know about a study on insulators, per se. Q. When did you become familiar with Dr. Irving Selikoff' s work? A. Well, when I came to work there. I mean, took over the insulators, '68. Q. You became aware -A. Yeah. Q. -- of Dr. Selikoff's work -A. Yeah. Q. -- in 1968? A. Uh-huh. Q. Yes? A. Yes. Q. Did you say Dr. City facility? Selikoff came to the Texas  07 A. He did. 08 Q. When did he come? 09 A. I don't remember what year. 10 Q. After you started working with the 11 insulators? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. Did you meet him? 14 A. No. 15 Q. Who did? 16 A. I wasn't asked to meet with him. 17 Q. You, the head of the insulators, and you're 18 not asked to meet with Dr. Selikoff? 19 A. You figure that one out. I have not figured 20 it out. 21 Q. Why -- you've never figured out why you 22 weren't asked, right? 23 A. That's right. 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 00259:01 Q. You can't tell us a single person within Union Carbide Dr. Selikoff met? A. I can't tell you, no. Q. How do you know he was there? A. My boss told me. Q. The only -- the only basis for your knowledge that Dr. Irving Selikoff ever came to Texas City is what somebody else told you? A. That's exactly right. Q. Okay. A. I didn't see him. Q. Okay. And did your boss ever say, "You want to meet with him," or anything like that? A. Nope. 18 Q. Do you knowwhetherUnion Carbide ever 19 turned over any medical information to Dr. Selikoff on 20 its insulators? 21 A. No idea. 22 Q. You werenever asked togather any 23 information to give to Dr. Selikoff? 24 A. No. 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 00261:01 02 03 Q. You knew the identity of the insulators, didn't you? A. Of course. Q. Of course, you did. You knew how they worked, didn't you? A. Sure. Q. You knew what they worked with, didn't you? A. Sure. 05 Q. (BY MR. CHANDLER) Did anybody at Union 06 Carbide know more about how the insulators worked than 07 you? 09 A. I doubt it. mm  10 Q. (BY MR. JORDAN) And nobody ever asked you 11 to sit down with Dr. Irving Selikoff? 12 A. That's right. mm