Document oDYKj5K1xy4mQngMZvydKyBor

FILE NAME Owens Illinois OWILL DATE 1996 Nov 26 DOC OWILL103 DOCUMENT DESCRIPTION Legal - Testimony of Richard E. Grimmie IN THE CIRCUIT COURT OF THE ELEVENTH JUDICIAL CIRCUIT MCLEAN COUNTY ILLINOIS LOIS BICKNELL Individually and as et Special Administrator of the Estate et of Hugh Bicknell deceased ee ) Plaintiff Nee VS. e CORNING FIBERGLAS CORPORATION ee and ILLINOIS CENTRAL RAILROAD COMPANY Defendants ) RON THACKER Plaintiff L VS. CORNING FIBERGLAS CORPORATION Se } Defendant ) DELORES MCCLURE Individually and as er Special Administrator of the Estate Se of Robert McClure deceased See et 18 Plaintiff ) ) 19 VS. } ee 20 ILLINOIS CENTRAL RAILROAD COMPANY et CORNING FIBERGLAS CORPORATION and ILLINOIS INC e Defendants ee NOVEMBER 26 1996 REPORT OF PROCEEDINGS of a portion of the jury trial held in the entitled cause on the 26th day of November 1996 before THE HONORABLE W. CHARLES WITTE Circuit Judge of the Eleventh Judicial Circuit presiding in courtroom B of the McLean County Law & Justice Center in the City of Bloomington County of McLean and State of Illinois 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 APPEARANCES JAMES WALKER and JAMES WYLDER Bloomington Illinois Representing the Plaintiffs ANDREW CONSTANTINE II Cherry Hill New Jersey Representing Corning Fiberglas Corp. JOHN L. MOREL Bloomington Illinois Representing Corning Fiberglas Corp. THOMAS R. PETERS Belleville Illinois Representing Illinois Central Railroad Co. JOSEPH O'HARA and MATTHEW FISCHER Chicago Illinois Representing Illinois Inc. Susan E. Geshwilm CSR 104 West Front Street Bloomington Illinois 61701 Lic No. 084-002578 INDEX Pg RICHARD E. GRIMMIE Direct Examination ....... oe Cross Examination see e eee vos Cross Examination Redirect Examination Examination .weeeeee Recross Examination Examination eneeanen 23 eeeeve eee ee 76 161 165 eovenvneevwves 169 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 November 26 1996 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 THE COURT These are causes 92 L 140 Lois Bicknell plaintiff vs. Corning Fiberglas and Illinois Central Railroad 92 L 162 entitled Wilma Thacker plaintiff vs. Corning Fiberglas Corporation defendant and 94 L 107 Delores McClure plaintiff vs. Illinois Central Railroad Company Corning Fiberglas Corporation and Illinois Incorporated defendants Causes come on for continued consolidated jury trial The plaintiffs all three are present personally and by counsel Mr. Walker and Mr. Wylder The defendant Corning Fiberglas present by counsel Mr. Andrew Constantine The defendant Illinois Central Railroad by counsel Thomas Peters and representative Charles Garrett The defendant Illinois by counsel Matthew Fischer Counsel ready to proceed MR CONSTANTINE Ready Your Honor I was trying to locate some documents last evening I couldn't find them I have found them they are 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 OCF 600 601 602 and 603. I have given counsel copies this morning and I'm going to be seeking their admission THE COURT All right Plaintiff had a chance to look at them yet MR WALKER Plaintiffs are looking at them now and don't know their position yet so we'll have to object until we are in a position to do differently THE COURT All right Record reflect that counsel Morel and O'Hara have also appeared Mr. Fischer you've got something MR FISCHER Your Honor we have some documents as well a redacted copy as requested of plaintiffs exhibit 433 as well as a few medical records which -- I'm sorry yes defendant Illinois 433 THE COURT And some medical records MR FISCHER And some medical records That is right THE COURT Illinois Central have anything MR PETERS We get to my case Your Honor all I'm going to do is read a stipulation and rest 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 THE COURT Okay Will you need a hearing on | your motion before that MR PETERS Yeah MR FISCHER One other point Your Honor We have a blow up we intend to use with Mr. Grimmie it's a blow up of this photo that Mr. Grimmie will be authenticating and I haven't had a chance to show it to plaintiffs counsel so I will do that MR O'HARA Your Honor I think this is the first day I'm late I apologize for being a little late ~~ THE COURT Not concerned about it Also need a copy of Dr. Barrett's reports the one on Mr. McClure and the one on Mr. Bicknell Mr. O'Hara Mr. Grimmie is here MR WYLDER Plaintiffs have some thoughts on the schedule but I suggest we defer all of that until we finish whatever is coming on today THE COURT Well except before I let the jury go we'll need to ~-- MR WYLDER Right but I mean when it looks like all the evidence is in perhaps we send them back there for a little bit and then discuss it 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 THE COURT All right MR O'HARA He's here THE COURT Mr. Constantine I think you indicated you had four new exhibits 600 through 603 Are those to be used with Mr. Grimmie MR CONSTANTINE Perhaps They don't have to be but depending upon what he says they may be THE COURT All right MR CONSTANTINE We are going to put him up first Is that what we are going to do THE COURT Well I will want to see if we conclude your case first your case in chief first Then I presume it may be dependent upon the plaintiffs reactions on those three and we'll go to the Illinois case All right Corning ready to present some additional exhibits Is that what you wish to do MR CONSTANTINE Yeah 600 through 603 THE COURT Mr. Walker MR WALKER Plaintiffs object to 600 on authentication and hearsay THE COURT All right Now I need to see copies of these Mr. Constantine MR CONSTANTINE I have copies Your Honor THE COURT Thank you sir Record reflect he's handed me copies of those exhibits Let's just do them one at a time You said authenticity and hearsay on 600 MR WALKER Yes THE COURT Mr. Constantine MR CONSTANTINE As it is a -- like some of 10 the medical records that we have seen Your Honor 11 it is a business record It is a dust study dated 12 May 11th 1961. I think that qualifies that as an ny 13 ancient document which I believe at least under 14 the federal rules is authenticating It is a 15 business record and it is -- I would think -- 16 THE COURT A business record of 17 Corning 18 MR CONSTANTINE It is 19 THE COURT Any other comment on it 20 MR CONSTANTINE No. 21 THE COURT Mr. Walker any comment 22 MR WALKER Well so far as I know the 23 statements of counsel are not sufficient evidence 24 to lay a foundation for the admissibility of an 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 exhibit We objected on the basis of authenticity and hearsay There has been no evidence to show that it falls within the exception to hearsay rule and there has been no evidence of authenticity MR CONSTANTINE It's a business record under I think local rule 236 THE COURT Well generally there is someone that authenticates that when it is your own business record and says they're the custodian and this is a document kept in the regular course of business MR CONSTANTINE We do have a custodian of records I can have an affidavit faxed to the court THE COURT Well at this point the objection will be sustained MR CONSTANTINE Well then Your Honor I ask for leave to call the -- to call that person live THE COURT All right You can do that The custodian MR CONSTANTINE I can do that sometime as soon as we can Of course I won't be able to rest until they get here THE COURT That is fine Number 6017 MR WALKER Same objections MR CONSTANTINE That too Your Honor is a business record and an ancient document it's peey dated January 24th 1946. Your Honor can see it bears the Bates stamp number and it's again not being offered for the truth of the matter asserted in the letter but rather it goes to the state of mind of Corning inasmuch as it appears as though in 1946 January 24th Corning was 10 sent or I'm sorry -~ actually there is a response 11 This letter is read in conjunction with OCF 602 12 THE COURT Okay okay en 13 MR CONSTANTINE 602 which is dated just 14 several days before January 18th 1946 is a letter 15 from the health department of the State of Ohio 16 enclosing a copy of the legal requirements for the 17 prevention and control of industrial public health 18 hazards and a letter going back on January 24th 19 which is 601 acknowledges receipt of that 20 document which is OCF 603. And the matters 21 asserted in the letter are not offered for the 22 truth of the matters asserted but rather on the 23 issue of receipt of the document which contains 24 the threshold limit value for asbestos dust at 10 five million particles per cubic foot of air THE COURT Is 603 the document that was attached to 602 MR CONSTANTINE I think that 606 -- I think the answer to that is that it's not And what was sent with 602 was a draft versions of 603 and 603 which you know which it's a draft version of what later appeared in the law to be 603 THE COURT Well 602 doesn't seem to suggest 10 it's a draft copy 11 MR CONSTANTINE I mean that is just based 12 upon my best recollection Your Honor It could 13 very well be -- although I think there is an 14 attachment to this letter -- well no I'm not 15 offering it the attachment is a draft version = 16 but it has got my handwriting on it and some 17 markings that I made so I'm not even offering it 18 THE COURT All right Plaintiff response 19 Actually 601 and 602 go together 20 MR WALKER Well if 602 is before the court 21 then we have a third objection We object on 22 authenticity hearsay and incompleteness The 23 first paragraph says enclosed is a copy and 24 counsel has already indicated he's not tendering 11 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 the copy If the Bates stamping numbers were put on there by Corning then those numbers work against Corning because exhibit 601 has Bates stamp 161. Exhibit 602 has Bates stamp 162 But there is no 163 on the front of Corning exhibit 603 which would indicate that the -- that the printed document wasn't what was enclosed with the January 18th letter most likely it was something else and it may be that Corning has already confessed that something else is different from 603 and therefore whatever it is that 602 is being offered to show notice of isn't in front of the jury if 601 and 602 were received into evidence So for all those reasons we object to the admissibility of 601 and 602 MR CONSTANTINE I have the attachments Your Honor 601 is ~-- the last four numbers are 161. The last four numbers of 602 are 0162. I have in my hands the attachment 163 164 165 166 167 168 169 and 170. Your Honor will see that on 170 there are some circle marks that I made so in an effort not to delay things and offer something that had marks on it I'm not 12 offering it for inaudible But for the purposes of establishing that this was indeed attached to the letter I'm offering it to the court for an in camera review of exactly what was attached And you'll see if you compare it with 603 Your Honor it's a draft or what appears to be a draft version of what later became -- THE COURT All right at this point I will sustain the objections give you an opportunity to 10 call that person that you -- 11 MR CONSTANTINE Just so I'm clear Your 12 Honor you're sustaining the objection on what 13 grounds 14 THE COURT Um on hearsay and at this point 15 authenticity 16 MR CONSTANTINE Could I just inquire of the 17 court is how is it that the plaintiffs introduce 18 medical records claiming them to be business 19 records and authentic and the court allows them 20 in but yet when Corning makes an offer of a 21 document an ancient document the same way the 22 court denies it I'm just curious 23 THE COURT Well -- 24 MR WALKER Well first of all I object to 13 the court having to defend itself -- THE COURT The court is not going to -- MR CONSTANTINE Your Honor the reason I ask the question is it is not an issue of the court defending itself and it's really not a personal matter Counsel for Corning has identified the record and made motions for recusal based on bias and prejudice and based on the way the case has been handled There is nothing 10 personal about it lawyer steps into a courtroom rt 11 calls it like he sees it I say -- 12 MR WALKER Well the problem is this lawyer beset 13 can't see the truth --~- 14 THE COURT Now counsel -- 15 MR WALKER -- can't give the court one 16 single example of when an objection was made to a 17 medical record and the objection wasn't ruled upon 18 the same way that these objections were ruled 19 upon 20 THE COURT The Appellate Court will have the om 21 opportunity to review the court's rulings and can 22 make whatever findings they perceive to be 23 appropriate 24 All right are we ready for Mr. Grimmie 14 MR CONSTANTINE Well Your Honor with respect to 603 could I venture forward to suggest perhaps that Your Honor could take judicial notice of the State of Ohio legal rules -- legal requirements for the prevention and control of industrial public health hazards published in document 603 dated 1946 MR WALKER You won't have to do that because the plaintiffs don't object to 603 10 THE COURT All right 603 will be admitted 11 Anything else All right ready for the 12 jury 13 MR WALKER Judge I wonder if we may not 14 have passed the plate as far as 603 as far as any 15 other party 16 THE COURT Any objection Illinois Central 17 MR PETERS I don't have any objection Your 18 Honor om 19 THE COURT Illinois 20 MR O'HARA No objection Your Honor 21 MR WALKER Thank you Your Honor Sorry I 22 didn't bring it up before the jury came in 23 THE COURT That's all right 24 All right now we are ready for the jury 15 THE FOLLOWING PROCEEDINGS WERE HAD | IN THE PRESENCE OF THE JURY THE COURT All right you may be seated Record reflect the ladies and gentlemen of the jury have returned to the courtroom Mr. O'Hara do you wish to present some evidence on behalf of Illinois MR O'HARA Yes Your Honor I do THE COURT Call your first witness 10 MR O'HARA Your Honor Illinois 11 exhibit 409 was previously admitted into evidence 12 THE COURT Yes sir 13 MR O'HARA With your permission I would 14 like to pass this exhibit to the jury 15 THE COURT You may 16 MR O'HARA Your Honor again with your 17 permission I would like to read a portion of this 18 to the jury 19 THE COURT Any objection You may 20 MR O'HARA Title of exhibit Illinois 21 409 is Pioneers in the Profession And the 22 title of the article is Willis G. Hazard and the 23 article is by Paul D. Halley The first paragraph 24 in the first page of the article begins Willis 16 Bill Gilken phonetic Hazard son of Willis and Mary Hazard was born in Westchester Pennsylvania on April 27th 1907. In the second paragraph in the second sentence From there Bill entered Harvard University where he received his bachelor of arts degree in physics in 1929 and his master's in physics in 1930. He became an instructor at the Harvard School of Public Health working with 10 notables Phillip Drinker and Theodore Hatch With 11 Drinker he assisted in development of the iron 12 lung which was a major factor in the treatment of 13 patients whose respiration was impaired by polio 14 With Hatch Bill worked on evaluation and control 15 of air quality matters especially of inhalation 16 of producing dusts 17 When Illinois Glass Company OI of 18 Toledo Ohio appealed to Harvard for assistance in 19 solving a problem of silicosis in their 20 operations Bill Hazard was recommended to them 21 So OI proposed and Bill accepted and in 1934 22 moved to OI's home office in Toledo His work at 23 OI took him to that company's many operations 24 across the United States to evaluate and control 17 om, an environmental problems such as producing dusts radiant heat and noise His academic training in physics ventilation and industrial hygiene type subjects plus his experience at Harvard made him uniquely qualified to handle those problems at OI st06 In the second full paragraph on the column on the right the second sentence They and there is a reference to above to Mr. Hazard's family ed 10 lived in Toledo except for four years during 11 World War II when Bill joined the U.S. Public Flael 12 Health Service and moved east to serve as an 13 officer assigned to New Jersey and New York City 14 At war's end he left the service with the rank of 15 major and returned to OI in Toledo where he 16 continued until retirement in 1972. 17 Then I would ask you to turn to the next page 18 under Accomplishments Contributions and Honors 19 Your Honor I'm not going to read all of this 20 The first sentence is Bill was a founding - 21 father of AIHA president in 1961 and Cummings 22 Memorial Awardee and lecturer in 1968. The first 23 sentence of the next paragraph Bill was a 24 founding member of the Konacide Club phonetic 18 Greek for death to dust which was a voluntary and informal group dedicated to control of dust exposures in the workplace And the last sentence of that paragraph He authored numerous articles in such publications as National Safety News American Journal of Public Health Journal of Industrial Hygiene and Toxicology and Occupational Hazards He authored three sections of the Encyclopedia of 10 Instrumentation for Industrial Hygiene and I 11 think it says three chapters in National Safety 12 Council publications on ventilation of local 13 exhaust systems and heat stress 14 Under The Early Years I first got to 15 know Bill when I was in my beginning years in 16 industrial hygiene with the Bureau of Industrial 17 Hygiene West Virginia State Department of Health 18 OI had several plants in West Virginia 19 At Bill's invitation I visited OI's plants 20 with him and together we conducted evaluations of 21 potential exposures at OI's operations It was 22 one of the best cooperative approaches by 23 government that I am aware of The 24 cooperation between Bill and myself continued 19 after I left government and entered industry in led 1953. In 1948 I convened a statewide organizational meeting to form an industrial hygiene section of the West Virginia Public Health Association One of the speakers was Bill Hazard Bill's talk was on health of glass workers He discussed medical and engineering controls in the glass industry and told us that out of four glass plants -- and told us that one of four glass 10 plants in the United States was in West Virginia +0008 11 Then Bill spoke of illnesses of workers 12 generally At that time there was very limited 13 information available on medical and toxicological 14 aspects of the workplace exposure to chemicals and 15 other stresses most attention at that time had 16 been directed to exposures to silicosis producing 17 dusts Bill mentioned one approach being 18 followed by his company which was to keep 19 sickness absentee records on all employees and 20 look for quote bunches end quote of absences He 21 suggested that employers should concentrate their 22 attention on the largest percentage of absences 23 rather than using a quote shotgun end quote 24 approach of checking on all employees 20 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 I was especially fascinated by Bill's ability and knowledge of exhaust ventilation to control exposures of workers to dust and vapors by ventilation of the work area The norm in those days was use of a large propeller fan placed in either the ceiling or outside wall of the work area Systems that had quote pick up end quote hoods or quote positioners end quote as they were sometimes called at the point of emission of the dust or vapor were to come later But not so with Bill and OI Bill was years ahead in his design of local exhaust systems which included such niceties as adequate face velocities being close to the point of emission for adequate capture velocity and adequate transport velocity to insure dust would not collect in piping The common practice ini those days was to have exhause ventilationsystems designed built and installed by tinsmiths who could adequately install a wall or ceiling fan but had no knowledge of proper ventilation systems Under Some Vignettes Bill's quote consultant end quote stationery carried this message at the bottom of the page It takes a 21 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 Hazard to spot a Hazard Under the bottom under To Reach or Not to Reach for a Star In 1968 Bill Hazard delivered his Donald E. Cummings award lecture This was the oldest and at the time the only AIHA award for those living in the United States Bill titled his lecture To Reach or Not to Reach for a Star In the second sentence of the next paragraph well I will just read the first sentence too Then Bill went to to say about dealing with AIHA quote let us look at two points of view There have been two ways of tackling the problems of life such as of a family's growing up end quote One is to set our goals reasonably low because not to do so causes too much anxiety and disappointment brought on by the failure to meet goals so do not reach for a star The second point of view he said is to set our goals high so that we grow by stretching and if we reach for a star we may go higher than we thought we could The next column in the middle paragraph Bill concluded by saying industrial hygiene which means AIHA by virtue of its position is the only 22 all encompassing professional society in the field must answer the question to reach or not to reach for a star Then he made one final statement I hope we reach for a star Your Honor at this time Illinois calls Bill Hazard by deposition from his deposition transcript in 1981 MR WYLDER The court's already ruled on that and counsel knows that 10 11 MR O'HARA Can we make an offer of proof on that at some -- 12 THE COURT You may the court's previously 13 ruled Objection is sustained 14 MR O'HARA Your Honor at this time with 15 your permission Illinois would like to call 16 Mr. Richard Grimmie 17 THE COURT You may 18 RICHARD E. GRIMMIE 19 CALLED AS A WITNESS ON BEHALF OF THE 20 DEFENDANT OI HAVING BEEN FIRST DULY SWORN WAS 21 EXAMINED AND TESTIFIED AS FOLLOWS 22 DIRECT EXAMINATION 23 BY MR O'HARA 24 Q Mr. Grimmie would you please introduce 23 yourself to the court and the jury A I'm Richard E. Grimmie I reside at 202 First Avenue West Berlin New Jersey 08091 Q I'm not sure that the jury needed that but -~ will you please tell the jury in what year were you born A 1922 1 Q And how old does that make you A Well I will be seventy next year 10 January He, 11 Q For how long have you lived in New Jersey 12 A All of my life 13 Q And did you grow up there in New Jersey 14 A I -- we can stand on our front porch and 15 look over there and see the house my wife was born 16 in four doors down see the house I was born in 17 So I grew up with the exception of time in World 18 War II when I was in Europe and North and South 19 Carolina But for all practical purposes I grew 20 up in West Berlin 21 Q Mr. Grimmie could you please tell the 22 jury the extent of your education 23 A I'm a high school drop out 24 Q How many years of high school did you 24 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 have A Well in my second year was during the Great Depression if anyone here remembers that I had no clothes no shoes My father left my mother with eight children So I had to drop out of school And I went to work for -- pumping gas for fifty cents from six o'clock in the morning to four o'clock in the afternoon Q You mentioned a little bit earlier that you did some things during World War II Right A Yes Q Just focusing on the years between 1940 and 1945 can you tell the jury what you were doing A I went into the 100th Infantry Division a company 399th Infantry Regiment I went in as a private I held every enlisted pay grade but Pfc I was discharged as first sergeant Q For what years were that A 1943 to 1945 Q Before 1943 but during the time the war was still on what were you doing then A Oh I was working in a lumber yard and then I went to work at New York Shipbuilding 25 Corporation in Camden New Jersey And in the shipyard we built ships for the Navy from PT boats to a battleship Q And what kind of work did you do in the shipyard A I worked in the insulation department Now Mr. Grimmie are you currently suffering any medical conditions A Yes sir 10 Q Is there anything that is currently 11 affecting you 12 A Yeah I just recently took seven pills 13 which is a weekly dose for arthritis I have 14 asbestosis I have a benign tremor you'll notice 15 my head will shake I can't write anymore because 16 I have lost the use of my left hand and I'm left- 17 handed 18 Other than seventy year aches and pains 19 I guess that would be it 20 Q Are any of these conditions to the extent 21 that you can tell do they affect your memory or 22 your mental capacities 23 A Not that I know of 24 Q Mr. Grimmie have you ever testified in 26 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 . 24 court like this room before in front of a jury like this one here A Yes sir Q How many times have you testified in courtroom like this before A Just one time Q And do you remember how long ago that was A It was I believe in the 1960s No no in the 1970s Q Has Illinois or any lawyers for Illinois ever asked you to come and testify at a trial before A For Illinois No. Q Now you've had a couple of depositions A Five Q And at the depositions lawyers had a chance to ask you some questions about your prior work experience A Yes Q Did there come a time Mr. Grimmie that you became an employee of Illinois A I beg your pardon Q Did there come a time when you became an 27 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 employee of Illinois A Yes Q Please tell the jurors when that was A It was February 14th 1945 I believe Q Are you certain of the year A Well my wife is going to kill me because it was just before we were married Q Your wife is here with you today A Yes Q Is it difficult for you to travel without having some help A Yes it is Q When you started at Illinois did you start out in an hourly capacity or in some other capacity A Hourly Q That means you actually punched a clock or how did they do it back then A You punched the clock and report to the supervisor Q And for about how long did you stay at Illinois as an hourly employee just approximately A Well there was a period of time I left the 28 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 Berlin plant to go to Sayreville and then back to Berlin I believe I left the Berlin plant on January 2nd 1947 and I'd have got back 2nd or 3rd of August of that year Q Did I understand that you started at Berlin and I think -- you started at Berlin then you spent some time at Sayreville and then you'd gone back to Berlin A Yes Q And these -- the Berlin plant and the Sayreville plant that you mentioned were these plants operated or owned by Illinois A Yes Q Now when you -- when you joined Illinois was it a glass company primarily A Well Illinois was a glass company but our plant did not make glass Q Okay And what did you -- what did Illinois make at the Berlin and Sayreville plant A At the Berlin plant was a pilot plant to develop a product Q When you say pilot I don't mean to interrupt you what do you mean 29 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 A Just that to develop a product to -- 10 calcium silicate high temperature insulation Q Did it havea name A Yes Kaylo And Sayreville plant was built to produce Kaylo When the Sayreville plant got up to production Berlin was to close Q When you first joined Illinois did you have any medical examination A Yes Before I went to work I went into the plant dispensary I was given a preliminary examination by the plant nurse who was on duty eight hours every day Monday through Friday And the plant physician at eleven thirty to twelve o'clock every day he finished the examination Q Were you actually seen by both of those people A Yes Q And the doctor that you mentioned did he actually you know put a stethoscope on you and ask you questions and things like that A Yes Q Did the plant nurse -- was this the first day that you ever arrived at any facility that was owned by Illinois 30 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 A Yes Q Did the plant nurse on the first day say anything to you about any of the dust protection programs in place at Illinois A Yes sir Q Will you please just tell the jury what she told you about that A During her portion of the orientation program she told me that there were certain areas which dust masks or respirators whichever you want to call them were required as long as you were working in that area Q Did she describe these as something or areas where the employees had a choice about whether to use them A No they were specifically designated respirator areas Q And did she say anything to you on that first day about why there were those kinds of areas in the plant A Yes She mentioned to me the fact that we used silica in our product and asbestos Q Is it fair to say that as of the first day or the first hours that you came to work at 31 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 Illinois you understood that asbestos was part of the ingredients of the product that was being made A Yes Q As an hourly employee at Illinois were you made aware of any of the health effects of asbestos Mr. Grimmie A Yes I understood that if asbestos inhaled it's a very tiny fiber and if you look at it under a microscope it has a little barb on it that will impale itself in your lung and cause what they call pleural thickening This reduces breathing capacity Q When you're an hourly employee were you ever specifically advised about the possibility of asbestosis or the disease asbestosis A Yes Q Which people at Illinois actually talked to you about asbestosis A Well the plant nurse and my supervisor Q What about the plant doctor A I don't remember the plant physician He was there for a half hour each day to take care of bumps and bruises 32 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 Q I would like to just ask you a couple of questions about the jobs that you did when you were an hourly employee at Illinois Could you please describe for the jurors you know what kind of jobs that you had during that time A Yes I started as a production handyman and I think that means just what it says wherever I was needed to assist the mechanic that is where I woulbde sent I went from that to batch mixing and from batch mixing to pouring and from pouring I went into the personnel department Q It might be helpful Mr. Grimmie if you could explain to the jury just the general way the general processes that were involved in making Kaylo so that they have some context within which to understand the jobs that you do A Okay Now this is during the time period that we are talking about Q Right A Kaylo was mixed in a ribbon mixer Q Did you say ribbon A Yes it's a curly thing and it just keeps going a cement mixer And the ingredients were silica lime diatomaceous earth clay 33 1 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 asbestos and for general Kaylo that was it They were introduced into the mixer mixed and pumped down to a pouring line Q When you say pumped in what form was the substance Was it solid or liquid A It was a slurry slurry type of -- very -- you couldn't carry it in your hand but in fourteen quart bucket you could ladle it into a mold Q And what happened to the slurry material Where did it go and what happened to it A Well at Berlin at the time we were making flatware and it would be powered into a mold It would be poured into a mold the excess would be secreted off and the car built up and then the car when there was enough cars which would be fourteen we would go into an autoclave Q What is an autoclave A An autoclave is a pressure vessel and incidentally that is the reason Illinois located the pilot plant in Berlin because there was two autoclaves there It was formerly a sand lime brick manufacturing facility After the material was autoclaved at a hundred twenty 34 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 pounds per square inch steam pressure it set it solid up in what would be considered a form It was taken out of the autoclave stripped out of the mold put into a drying -- put into a drying car and put into a drier to bring it down to the necessary moisture content Q And then what happened to the material after it came out of the autoclave and dried A Then it went to the finishing department and at the time the flatware the top surface which was rather rough would -- was sanded off by a huge sander and the sides were beveled slightly They were trimmed square and we wound up with an eighteen by thirty inch piece of ware Q And did you have a variety of jobs that were involved in making this flatware I think you described pourer and -- A Yeah I was a pourer and I worked at loading autoclaves at stripping the molds Q Mr. Grimmie when you were an hourly employee at Illinois did you have --- were you a member of a union A Yes sir Q What union was it 35 A Glass Bottle Blowers Association of the Cond United States and Canada Q And did you have any position with the ee union A was the secretary of the -- Q What did that mean at the Berlin plant A Well that meant at union meetings I took minutes of the meetings and if there was an executive meeting I would sit in on it with the sana 10 president vice president 11 Q As secretary of the union did you have 12 any interaction with the -- the management people 13 at Illinois about what was going on in the 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 plant A Yes sir Q And how frequent were those contacts A WellI would have to say that not too frequent but the frequency -~ the biggest reason I would have to contact management would be when a supervisor threatened to fire an employee for not wearing his respirator And this was rather frequently And this was a constant struggle to get people to wear the respirators Q Can I -- at the Berlin plant where you 36 started at the Berlin plant when you returned did they have any dust control systems A Yes sir Q Could you please describe for the jurors what was - what kind of equipment was involved and what it did A We had in place a sly dust collector y is a manufacturer's name And the dust collector was rather huge It works the same way 10 -- the same principle as our vacuum cleaner at 11 home But this may have been fourteen feet wide 12 and thirty feet long And there was a series of 13 ~~ series meaning hundreds of filter bags hanging 14 on a rack inside of the dust collector And what 15 16 17 this rack was for was to shake the bags to shake whatever dust may have accumulated on them Um - Q How did -- how V how many of these 18 machines were there 19 A Well at the time at the time of the pilot 20 plant operation there was one 21 Q And how is it that the Sly dust collector 22 does since it's located in one spot how does it 23 do its job at other locations in the plant 24 A There was very large ducts going to each 37 san, operation and off of the large ducts were smaller flexible hoses going to if I may use a trim saw as an example a trim saw had a twelve inch sawblade and this mechanism was built to straddle that sawblade and leave four and a half inches of it exposed Because the largest material the sae thickest material we made was four inches so that would bring this in And then the duct work would pull the dust from the sawblade up into the 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 collector Q How powerful was this system A How powerful was it I A it was -- I think I mentioned twenty thousand cubic feet a minute I don't mean to be joking but sometimes an unsuspecting maintenance man would be working on the saw and he would get too close and it would pull the hat right off of his head So it was I would say a very powerful system and it was well 19 20 21 maintained Q Speaking of the maintenance what was ~-- what was the maintenance schedule for this 22 machinery We were scheduled to shut down 23 A Okay 24 every two hours 38 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 Q Shut down what A The operation The dust collector would be shut down and when it was turned off it would automatically shake the bags Now this was also a ten minute break for the people Q Like you when you were an hourly employee A Yes And I appreciated it And at noon at lunch time the dust collector was shut off and the maintenance man the truck driver would go up inside of the baghouse to make sure all of the dust had gone down through the chutes into the hoppers underneath so that it wasn't clogging up Q Who controlled at Illinois when this system was operating A Well it would be turned on at the beginning of the shift Now we had a policy in place that is almost unheard of but we had -hourly people had authority to shut down the operation if they could see dust coming out of one of these pick up hoods Q So you when you were an hourly employee did you have that authority A Yes 39 Q In your experience when you were an hourly employee did it ever happen that one of your own colleagues declared I see dust A Yes Q And the production in this operation will 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 A Yes Q And then what happened A Well the maintenance people would go up into the collector to check the bags and then check to see if it was clogged up anyplace or if the duct work was clogged Q You mentioned I think earlier some trim saws Correct A Yes Q Now how many trim saws were there A Well in the beginning we had what we called the flatware finishing line The product that we developed was roof tile it was a roof deck that was made eighteen by thirty inches two and a half inches thick It was a fire proof material and that is what Kaylo was to be But we had a somewhat of a genius at Berlin and he developed a low density product that could be made 40 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 into pipe covering And when we made molds and started pouring pipe covering then additional dust collecting capacity was added Q In the Sly dust collection system was there a way to manage whether the dust collection was going on in one operation as opposed to another A Yes absolutely There was gate valves in the duct work and if one saw was being operated the gates on all of the other pick up lines could be closed so that all of the effort of the collector was concentrated on the air that was being worked Q Mr. Grimmie when you were an hourly employee did you know whether Illinois had an industrial hygienist A Yes Q Could you please tell the ladies and gentlemen whom you remember to be the industrial hygienist at Illinois A Bill Hazard Q When you were at Berlin and then at Sayreville and then back at Berlin as an hourly employee did you ever see Bill Hazard at the 41 plants A Yes Q When you saw Bill Hazard at the Berlin plant and at the Sayreville plant could you just describe for the ladies and gentlemen of the jury what you saw him doing A Well Bill would come in with a team of his a, people and that is if we may take a trim saw they would strap around the trim saw feeder's neck 10 a pipe that would -- a flexible rubber that would 11 come up right to his breathing zone and then it 12 would go down to his belt line where there was a 13 little mechanism that created a vacuum And this 14 was to create the same conditions that this 15 operator was working in his breathing zone Then 16 this material went into some solution and then it 17 was analyzed 18 Q You had an understanding at this time that 19 this was a dust counting procedure 20 A Absolutely 21 Q And you actually saw him putting these -- 22 with the equipment putting the tubes on the 23 workers at a place where they would be breathing 24 Is that what you saw 42 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 A Well yes And I actually had it put on me Q By Bill Hazard or some of his team A No one of his team Q Mr. Grimmie I would like to show you a picture if I could it has been marked as Illinois exhibit 530 Mr. Grimmie do you recognize that picture A Yes I recognize it Q Are you -- A I'm in it Q You're in it And you recognize yourself A Yes Q And you recognize the other people that that are in that picture A Preston Gillis Paul Shoe from Aetna who was our insurer Bill Hazard Q Is this a picture that was taken at the Illinois plants A Yes This incidentally this piece of -- equipment Q Well before you testify any more is this a fair and accurate picture of yourself and these other Illinois employees at the time that 43 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 you were working there A Yes absolutely MR O'HARA Your Honor I would move --~ A But I was salary at the time MR O'HARA Okay I move for its admission Your Honor THE COURT Any objection MR WALKER Could I ask a couple questions about it THE COURT Sure BY MR WALKER Q About when was this taken Mr. Grimmie A Um probably after 1958 I don't know exactly Q And at which plant was it taken A At Berlin plant Q And when you say prior to '58 what would make that a cut off time that it couldn't have been later than '58 A Well the fact that Pres Gillis was there and after 1958 he -- MR WALKER No objection THE COURT Any other objection will be admitted No It 44 10 11 23 23 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 MR O'HARA Your Honor with your permission then may I use the enlargement that we brought THE COURT You may What is that marked MR FISCHER Your Honor this is marked 530 Q Mr. Grimmie I'm going to show you an enlargement of the picture that I have just showed you If you could could you tell I don't mean to cut off the reporter here but could you tell the jurors who these people are and -- well why don't we start with yourself A This is me Q In the work shirt A Yes Q This is Preston Gillis Q Who was he A He was in the personnel department Paul Shoe was Aetna our insurer's inspector He would also do the same work that Bill Hazard was doing Q You mean the dust counting A Yes dust sampling Q Could you point out Bill Hazard please A I think this is Bill Hazard But I don't recognize this other gentleman 45 Q Why don't you see if -- if the caption there helps you A Okay Bernie Haven was Aetna Q In this caption here it says that all of you are looking over a trim saw installation at Berlin A Yes Q And when you say -~- when it says trim saw installation what does that mean 10 A Well what this piece here -- 11 Q In the lower left 12 A Is what we called a mandrel And that is 13 where the piece of pipe covering would go on The 14 inside diameter of the pipe covering would fit 15 right on there The leg would come down That 16 would go through There was a sawblade on each 17 side it would cut the leg off and cut it to size 18 What we were doing there is looking at duct work 19 Q Why would Bill Hazard show up at a trim 20 saw installation ats 21 A Well I don't know if that is the reason he 22 was there specifically But if it was a new 23 installation then he probably wanted to see it 24 Q This -- the testing that you saw Bill 46 Hazard do is this the kind of testing that would . be done in just one area or in -~- A No every area where dust would be generated Q You mentioned that there were some Aetna people who did counting similar to Mr. Hazard A Yes Q Did you actually see the Aetna people in the Illinois plants doing this kind of 10 testing 11 A Yes sir 12 ~ 13 Q And was Mr. Hazard with them on occasion A I have no recollection of him being with 14 them 15 Q Were there any housekeeping procedures in 16 place at the Illinois plants 17 A Yes sir 18 Q Why don't you just tell the jury what 19 efforts were made at the Illinois plants to 20 keep work areas clean 21 A Each shift by union contract got off five 22 minutes before the end of their shift We worked 23 three shifts and then we got up to three shifts 24 seven days a week Each shift was allowed five 47 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 minutes personal time by union contract so at quarter to the hour the operation would shut down and the people working would clean up their work area We had a mechanical sweeper on each shift guy would sit on it and drive around and sweep the floor It was a vacuum type thing And out back we had a bin for him to empty his - the container in the sweeper that was as air proof as we could get it If there happened to be any batch spills or any mishaps they were immediately taken care of I think the floor sweeper was one of the greatest things we ever spent money on because we had quite a few lift trucks operating in the plant and if you allowed any dirt at all to accumulate on the floor it generated dust But with the floor sweeper operating we kept that down to acceptable levels or below Q The jury in this trial has heard some evidence about I think what was characterized as unbelievably bad dust conditions in a non- Illinois plant Given what you saw of the house keeping practices at Illinois do you 48 have any reason to believe that things were ever unbelievably bad at the Illinois plants MR WALKER I don't object to Mr. Grimmie telling us what he saw but this is leading THE COURT Sustained You can rephrase Q Mr. Grimmie why don't you characterize using your own words the quality of the housekeeping efforts that you observed when you were an Illinois hourly employee 10 A Will I think I mentioned I worked in a 11 lumber yard before I went to Illinois and I 12 was somewhat amazed at the effort that management 13 put into housekeeping They had housekeeping 14 contests where crews would be judged on the way 15 they left the operation at the end of their shift 16 We had housekeeping slogans that the 17 personnel guy would call the home of one of the 18 employees picked at random and ask if that person 19 knew what the housekeeping slogan was for that 20 week and if that person happened to no know We 21 were affiliated with Libby Glass at the time and 22 usually the award was a beautiful set of Libby 23 glassware 24 But it appeared to me that management was 49 trying to take housekeeping with the person with that the employee and take it home so the wife could beat on him there Q Let me switch subjects just for a second and I think earlier in one of your answers you mentioned respirators Did Illinois at its | rg plant did they have a respirator program A Yes sir Q Why don't you just tell the jury what the 10 program involved who managed it where it 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 applied A There were certain areas that -- where the dust level could not be controlled that were designated respirator areas People working there were required to wear a respirator and I won't hesitate to tell you it was a tough proposition to get a person to wear a respirator They -- the respirator program was primarily administered by the plant nurse And she had boxes of respirators When a shift -- before a shift started the supervisor would go into the dispensary and get his respirators They had been cleaned with alcohol and a new filter put in He would take them to his -- he had a field desk and 50 deal them out to the people in his crew that were required to wear them At the end of the shift the people would put the respirators in a box and he would return that to the dispensary and the nurse once again would clean them with alcohol and change the filters Eventually we got a dishwasher Q A what A A dishwasher and cleaned the respirators 10 with a dishwasher 11 Q Mr. Grimmie at the Illinois plants 12 did everybody have his or her own personal 13 respirator that they took care of 14 A No. 15 Q Why 16 A Well we wanted to be sure that they were 17 properly maintained and the only way - and this 18 just started before I was in personnel but it was 19 later described to me the only way the personnel 20 director who was also the safety director could 21 feel confident that they were properly maintained 22 that they were turned in and the nurse cleaned 23 them and changed the filter 24 Q You've talked about some of the 51 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 difficulties in enforcing the respirator program Did -- what steps did you observe while you were an hourly employee at Illinois about the way in which Illinois tried to enforce the respirator program A Well it was usually through a threat and there was a procedure a contractual procedure Verbal warning written warning time off termination Q By time off you mean suspension A Yes three days time off And the supervisor would talk to the person and try to convince him to wear his respirator It was not uncommon to walk around the plant and see certain people that just seemed as if they didn't care to be protecting their Adams apple instead of being up there A respirator is very uncomfortable to wear and that is why we put all the money and effort into collecting dust so that the hazard didn't exist Q When you were an hourly employee did you personally know of instances where people were either given an oral warning or a written warning or suspended or terminated because they failed to 52 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 comply with respirator requirements A I don't recall any termination But being a union officer I had to sit in on the grievance procedure and yes I remember warnings being given union officers would talk to the people tell them look you're at the point we can't protect you anymore Q And when you were involved as the union secretary and the union representative during this period did you have communications with people about these issues A With people Q Or with -- did you have interaction at all with Illinois management personnel about the enforcement of the respirator program A Yes In meetings that -- we had a monthly meeting with management and it is fair to say that not a month went by that it wasn't on the agenda Q When you were the union representative were you urging the enforcement of the program or urging the abandonment of the program A No I urged the enforcement of the program Q As the union representative 53 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 A Yes When I was a batch mixer I was required to wear a respirator and I did and it is very uncomfortable it's unnatural But you can become accustomed to it if you stay with it If you hang by your neck long enough and don't die you can become accustomed to that So just stick with it and it would work Q Let me move to a different area -- THE COURT Can we take a break now MR O'HARA Your Honor can I just do this one point and then we can break THE COURT Sure Q Mr. Grimmie while you were at Illinois I think I forgot to ask you a question earlier When you had your first physical I think you described that for the jury did you actually -- did you have any ray taken at that time A Yes Q Where did you have to go for that A At the time they had an ray lab in Glassboro They had a contract with a doctor there And I had to go to Glassboro which means nothing here but it's about fourteen miles from 54 Berlin ray And every employee had a employment | Q Now after the ray and the physical that you had when you first came to work at Illinois did you ever have any rays after that A Every year Q Did you have to go to the same place A No no it was changed 10 Q You got to go to a closer place 11 A Um yes it did get closer But it didn't 12 matter because we were paid to travel 13 Q It wasn't taken out of your time You 14 mean you weren't docked part of your salary 15 A No no we either went on company time or 16 the company paid the employees to go 17 Q Were you the only one who had rays 18 annually 19 A oh no Every factory worker had an annual 20 ray Office workers were every two years I 21 still have -- I don't have in my possession but 22 if I may Monday I go for an ray and all of my 23 rays are still in a packet about that thick 24 Q With your personal physician 55 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 A No with the plant nurse whom Corning retained to maintain the -~ those rays Q During the entire time that you were at Illinois did you have an ray every year A Yes sir Q Was that something that you had a choice about I mean could you choose not to go A No you go or else MR O'HARA Your Honor I think this would be a good time for a break THE COURT All right go ahead and put your note pads upside down go ahead and step back to the jury deliberation room and relax for a few minutes THE FOLLOWING PROCEEDINGS WERE HAD OUT OF THE PRESENCE OF THE JURY THE COURT Record reflect the jurors have left the courtroom go ahead and take a break for a minute Mr. Grimmie Take a fifteen minute recess A RECESS WAS TAKEN THE COURT Record reflect all parties have returned to the courtroom Ready for the jurors 56 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 Have you concluded your questioning yet Mr. O'Hara MR O'HARA No I haven't THE FOLLOWING PROCEEDINGS WERE HAD IN THE PRESENCE OF THE JURY THE COURT You may be seated Record reflect the ladies and gentlemen have returned to the courtroom Mr. O'Hara you may continue BY MR O'HARA Q Mr. Grimmie let me switch gears a little bit I think earlier today you mentioned the fact that you became a member of the I think personnel and production parts of Owens -- the Illinois Kaylo division at some point Is that right A Personnel production ' Personnel and production Did you have -A Yes at one time I was personnel manager and production manager But that was not for Illinois I was personnel manager with Illinois Q Will you just describe for the jurors what you did as personnel manager at Illinois 57 A Um we -- I always enjoyed -- we had people programs and if I may in South Jersey there was four Illinois plants One at Glassboro Bridgeton Vineland Berlin And on the map they're sort of a diamond So we formed what we called the Diamond Derby and each summer all four plants would get together and we would compete in volleyball archery all sorts of things 10 Within the plant I established safety 11 programs to purchase posters to hang around the 12 plant I supervised the plant nurse and the plant 13 physician and made sure that everything out in the 14 plant was going as it should And we were on 15 three shift operation and I made it a practice to 16 go in or work - our workday started at eight 17 o'clock I made it a practice to go in at maybe 18 quarter to seven and just walk around the plant to 19 see -~ let people see me and if they had anything 20 to talk about we could talk I also monitored Seealial 21 the safety boards or bulletin boards for graffiti 22 During the day I would walk around the plant so 23 people could see me 24 Q Did you have short days during that period 58 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 or was it straight nine to five A No sir As I mentioned before I'm high school drop out and I worked twelve fourteen hours a day to make up for what I didn't have up here I stayed there and learned and I learned from people I worked with And as an aside if I may our first child one time asked her mother when her father was going to come visit her because she would be in bed when I got home and she would be in bed when I left for work But it was really my enjoyment and you have to understand that it was sort of my hometown and I knew most of the people and we were we were family really Q Did you have any responsibilities with respect to the new people that Illinois hired to work at that plant A Yes yes I interviewed and if a person was to be hired I conducted a employment interview and I would go over what was expected of this person and our safety procedures Q Did you give any of these people that you talked to before they actually began work at Illinois did you give them any information 59 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 about dust hazards at the Illinois plants A Yes sir I did Q Please tell the jury what you told people before they started work at Illinois about that MR WALKER Object unless we have - excuse me Mr. Grimmie object unless we have the time Judge THE COURT Sustained Q In what what position were you at Illinois when you were having these discussions with people before they started work at Illinois What was your job then A Personnel manager Q And do you remember approximately in what years you had personnel responsibilities at the Berlin plant Was it after you were an hourly employee A oh yes Q Okay And it's before 1958 A Yes Q Can you remember can you remember specifically what different personnel jobs that you had during that period 60 A was a personnel assistant and then personnel manager Well excuse me I went from personnel assistant to production supervisor which was in charge of the production department and then back into personnel as personnel director Q And was it both in your assistant personnel capacity as well as your personnel director capacity that you had these conversations with people before they started work at 10 Illinois 11 A Yes sir 12 Q And what did you tell these people about 13 dust hazards at the Illinois plants 14 A I told them that we had regulations we 15 had designated respirator areas I told them that 16 we used silica which is a source of silicosis and 17 I told them that we used asbestos which is a 18 source of asbestosis If you are assigned to a 19 respirator area for your own protection you must 20 wear the respirator 21 Q Is there anybody that you spoke to before 22 they started work at Illinois that you 23 talked to in your personnel capacity that you 24 didn't say or that you didn't tell this 61 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 information to A Oh I have no recollection of that I had a sheet of paper and I checked off the items as I went down and -- Q And were these health hazards -- A Yes Q -- part of the check list A Part of the orientation program Q When you were in the personnel area or in the production area did you have any continuing responsibilities regarding enforcement of the respirator program A Yes sir Q Will you please tell the jurors when you were in these areas at Illinois what you did A Well generally I would take up the problem with the shift supervisor He was the guy on the front line and he was the guy responsible for enforcing the program And more times than not if he couldn't enforce the program there would be a grievance He would take disciplinary action and there would be a grievance and the union committee would bring the grievance to me 62 and I generally was not too sympathetic to it So then they would take it to the plant manager Q When you say you weren't very sympathetic to it will you please describe for the jurors the positions that you took when you were in the personnel department or in the production departments regarding the enforcement of the respirator program A Yes What the grievance -~- generally what 10 the grievance asked for was if it happened to be a 11 written warning or a suspension they would want 12 me to call this off don't let this happen to this 13 man And if I knew that this particular person 14 was a habitual offender I would do everything I 15 could to talk reason And then the grievance 16 would go to the plant manager and it would be his 17 decision whether to call off the disciplinary 18 action or not 19 Q Are the positions you took on the 20 respirator program when you were in personnel or 21 production were they different than the positions 22 you had taken when you were a union 23 representative when you were an hourly employee 24 A Yes 63 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 Q In terms of the enforcement of the respirator program A Yeah I would be arguing for the guy -- I would take them in the corner and threaten to knock a couple teeth out if he didn't do what he was supposed to do But as a union representative I couldn't tell him I'm going to recommend that you get three days off Q Did you have any interaction with the plant nurse in connection with the respirator program A Yes Q Could you please tell the jurors about that A Um I would occasionally talk to her how it was going were the supervisors doing their part were they picking up their respirators were they returning them In her medical literature that she got did she feel there was a better type of respirator we could be using Just general type of things that ~- to be sure that she was doing her job Q Mr. Grimmie I think you mentioned earlier that all of the Illinois employees were 64 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 required to have annual chest rays Correct Except for the -- except for the office employees A That is right Q Is that right A All of the production people people working in the factory were required to have annual rays Office employees were once every two years Q During the entire time you were at Illinois did it ever come to your attention that any of the rays that were taken of the Illinois employees showed evidence of asbestos disease A Not that I recall I thought we were doing a terrific job Q During the entire time you were at Illinois did it ever come to your attention that anybody -~- any of the employees at the Illinois plants were making or had made a workers compensation claim for asbestos disease A During the time I was with Owens -- Q During the time you were with Illinois right through April of 1958 65 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 A I have no recollection of that Q Mr. Grimmie when you were working at Illinois was the operation of the Kaylo division financially successful A No sir Q Um when you first started there was it financially successful A No sir Q Did -- at any time when you were there did it ever become financially successful A I think towards the end we got things rolling pretty good with expansion but with pipe insulation not with flatware We made material I think I mentioned roof deck and pipe insulation And after we converted the plant for pipe insulation and we started to roll and production couldn't keep up to sales so we went on three shifts a day five days a week and we still couldn't keep up so we went three shifts a day seven days a week And -- but I think the philosophy -- see Corning was a national distributor for Kaylo for many years Q As of 1953 correct A That when it was Well thank you 66 Q Do you have a recollection A I -- and what Kaylo was being a high temperature insulation and this was after the war there was many oil refineries atomic power generating stations fossil fuel generating stations being built and they all required high temperature insulation So the feeling was if we were to provide the high temperature insulation to the Corning sales force then they would 10 have a better opportunity to sell the entire job 11 Q Do you know after 1953 whether 12 Illinois kept its own sales force after 1953 13 when Corning took over the distribution 14 A I -- I don't remember I don't want to 15 guess I don't remember any of them coming in the 16 plant any more There was contact with some very 17 nice folks 18 Q There has been some testimony in this case 19 about a Unarco plant in Bloomington where we are 20 To the best of your knowledge Mr. Grimmie during 21 the time you were at Illinois were there 22 any communications between Illinois and 23 people at the Unarco plant about how the Unarco 24 people should run their plant 67 A Well I don't want to hurt feelings but I never heard of Unarco until probably two weeks ago Q So you don't know the company Unarco A No sir Q And you certainly didn't have any communications with Unarco A No sir Q Did Illinois at the Kaylo plant did 10 they make any textile products 11 A Textile 12 Q Right like blankets or rope 13 A No sir 14 Q Was there any name for the Illinois 15 products other than just Kaylo 16 A No sir not out of the Berlin plant 17 Q You talked a little bit earlier today 18 about the fact that people from Aetna whom I think 19 you identified in this photograph actually came in 20 and did dust counting at Illinois 21 A Yes 22 Q Were you ever or did you ever have the 23 training to either conduct those kinds of tests 24 yourself or interpret those kinds of tests 68 A No sir Q Who at Illinois had that expertise at least to the best that you know A People in Toledo Q Did that include Bill Hazard A There may have been someone in our laboratory in Berlin but we didn't do it It was Toledo Q At some of your other depositions have 10 lawyers shown you some of the dust counting test 11 results Do you remember that 12 A Well I don't I have been deposed five 13 times and it -~- 14 Q If you were shown those kinds of test 15 results would you be in a position today to 16 analyze or interpret those kinds of results 17 A No sir I don't think so 18 Q I think you told the jury a little bit 19 earlier today that you were diagnosed with 20 asbestosis 21 A That is correct 22 Q And please tell the jury when that 23 diagnosis occurred 24 A I believe it was 1968 69 Q Has that disease which you have been diagnosed with does that currently cause you any breathing problems A No sir Q Has that disease which was diagnosed many years ago has that disease been stable or has it progressed A It has been stable I'm diagnosed at ten percent disability What this means is that I 10 have lost ten percent of my breathing capacity 11 If I may as soon as I found out I stopped smoking 12 which is in my opinion a must But -- 13 Q Has your asbestosis as far as you can 14 tell has that been any limitation on your normal 15 activities 16 A No. Nothing that I can't attribute to 17 being seventy years old and a hundred pounds 18 overweight I have been able to do things I 19 have had a boat out in the ocean the Atlantic 20 ocean that is And camping hiking things like 21 that Usually I meet them on the way back but 22 the weight situation I gained fifty pounds when I 23 stopped smoking if you please 24 Q When you testified a little bit earlier 70 today that you worked in the shipyards during World War II A Yes sir Q The -- and I think you described your work as insulation work is that right A That is right fifty phonetic department Q Now was there any kind of pipe covering products that were used during that period 10 A Yes sir 11 Q And did you actually apply some of that 23 pipe covering yourself 23 A Yes 14 Q In the course of a day when you were 15 doing -- well was that the only kind of product 16 that you worked with when you were an insulator in 17 the shipyards in World War II 18 A No. I worked with asbestos 19 Q Can you describe for the jury what kind of 20 a product that that was 21 A During the war when we were building 22 ships we were building anywhere from PT boats to 23 a battle kit if you please And when a pipe was a 24 straight line which covered and then it would run 71 off at a ninety degree angle we would take raw asbestos put it in a bucket make a slurry muck and mold it around that joint And following up eer the insulator after it dried would be a guy who would sew a canvas covering on it so it wouldn't deteriorate But what situation we had there was an open bag of asbestos and grabbing it in the hands and dump it in a bucket And the government never provided any protection nor did the 10 shipyards 11 Q You mean respirators 12 A That is right 13 Q Or dust collection equipment 14 A Nothing 15 Q You mentioned canvas Did Kaylo come with 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 a canvas covering A Yes After the material was trimmed to size it would go through a tunnel and glue would be sprayed on it and it would go to a wrapper packer and there is two sections and the wrapper packer would take one section lay it on a piece of canvas take the other section lay it on top and then roll it and then put it in the carton Q Will you tell the ladies and gentlemen of 72 the jury what was the purpose for putting the canvas covering on the top of Kaylo A Well when the job was -- the application all the applicator had to do was open that hinge put the piece of pipe covering the section and reglue that hinge and it was a finished job Q At the Kaylo plant approximately how many pieces of Kaylo were produced on every shift A Well are you talking pipe covering or -- 10 see we had a flatware pouring line that was 11 independent of pipe covering On a pipe covering 12 pouring line according to the schedule and the 13 schedule was laid out by the people that got the 14 sales and let's say approximately four thousand 15 pieces per shift 16 Q And the plant was running about three 17 shifts per day 18 A Yes Now this is when we were at peak 19 efficiency 20 Q And when you were a pipe coverer and an 21 insulator during World War II how many pieces of 22 pipe covering would you normally use in one of 23 your shifts 24 A I haven't the slightest idea 73 Q Was it less than four thousand pieces a shift A Gracious sakes no Q shift It wasn't less than four thousand pieces a A Oh yes yes there was a lot of cutting to do around the angles and it -- I don't know if I had to guess I would say if you could put on hundred pieces you were a star performer 10 Q Mr. Grimmie during the entire time you 11 were at Illinois was there anything that 12 you saw or heard that suggested to you that 13 Illinois didn't take dust control very 14 seriously 15 A Absolutely not 16 Q Is there anything that you heard saw 17 observed at Illinois when you were there 18 that suggested to you that Illinois didn't 19 try to enforce its respirator program 20 A Absolutely they tried to enforce 21 Q Is there anything that you heard or saw 22 while you were at Illinois that suggested 23 that Illinois didn't try to find out how 24 much dust was in the air in the plant where its 74 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 employees were working A No they always monitored very frequently monitored the plant atmosphere Q Is there anything that you heard or observed while you were at Illinois that suggested that Illinois didn't try to monitor didn't try to look at the health of its own workers to see whether any of them was developing any asbestos conditions A No sir Q Mr. Grimmie do you know of anything from the time that you were at Illinois that suggested to you that Illinois agreed with anyone else to hide from its workers any information regarding the hazards of asbestos A I don't believe that MR O'HARA Your Honor that is all the questions I have THE COURT Any questions Corning MR CONSTANTINE I have no questions at this time THE COURT Illinois Central Railroad MR PETERS None Your Honor THE COURT All right Mr. Walker 75 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 MR WALKER Thank you Your Honor CROSS EXAMINATION BY MR WALKER Q Mr. Grimmie you mentioned that this is the first time you have testified for you thought maybe like fifteen years or something like that Is that about how long ago you remember it being A Um no it's been longer than that Q Okay A I have been retired for -- since 1984 so I think the McGrath trial was probably ten years before that Q Be about 1974 would be your estimate as to when you last testified A Yes Q Over twenty years ago A Yes Q Now who contacted you about coming out to Illinois and testifying in this case A Um Bob Kelly Q Did you know Mr. Kelly before he contacted A No sir Q okay And when did he contact you 76 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 A Oh three or four weeks ago Q What does Mr. Kelly do for a living If you -- if he told you A I think he is a lawyer Q And where does he make make his office A I really don't know I could guess and I think it may be Chicago Q Has he ever met you ~-- was the first contact by phone or in personal A I think it was by phone Q Have you ever met Mr. Kelly face to face A Have ? Q Yes A Yes Q Okay When did you first see him face to face A When he came to my house Q About how long ago was that. A Probably four weeks ago maybe Q Who all came with him A I think there was a young lady with him but I don't remember her name -- And was that the first meeting you had with anyone to get ready for testifying in this 77 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 case A Yes Q Okay Have you had any other meetings with anyone -- any other people to prepare you for your testimony in this case A Only since I got here in this beautiful city I might have Q Okay We appreciate that When did you get here A Last night Q Okay A Yesterday evening Q And how did you travel A By air Q And who all came with you A Mr. Kelly it's embarrassing a young lady I can't remember her name My wife is sitting back there and she is - Q Is the lady in the back of the room your wife A Yes Q Okay A And just four of us Q Okay So it was Mr. Kelly Was it the 78 / } 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 same young lady who came to your home with Mr. Kelly A No. Q And a lady and then of course your wife and yourself Is that correct A That is correct Yeah there was a pilot and a pilot Q Did you all fly on a commercial plane A No I --~ Q Oh it was a private plane A It was what sir Q I'm sorry Was your flight on a regular commercial plane A No sir Q It was on a privately arranged plane A Privately arranged flight Q You took off somewhere in New Jersey and you landed in Bloomington A No it was Philadelphia Q Oh Philadelphia Okay Is that fairly near your home Philadelphia A It's about fourteen miles I think if I may that arrangement was made because of my condition with the paralysis in my hips 79 Q Okay Insofar as you know nobody is charging you for this air flight Correct Kelly or somebody -- H A If they do it's going to be a lean Christmas Q Kelly or somebody other than yourself is going to pick up the tab for the plane Right A Lord I hope so Q Has he told you who is going to pay for 10 the plane 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 A Nope Q Okay Now did Mr. Kelly show you any documents or anything at your home or anywhere else in preparation for your testifying A Not that I recall The picture that you see here he got from me My wife made a scrap book when I retired and that picture was in the scrap book and it's been grossly enlarged but not that I recall Q You still have the scrapbook A I hope Q Do you still have the scrapbook A Yes I do Q Now you mentioned that you retired in what 80 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 did you say A 1984 Q Okay And you were how old at that time A Sixty Q Since then have you been able to enjoy the fishing and the camping and the hiking and so forth that you mentioned A For awhile yes Q Okay A Until spinal stenosis caught up to me Q All right And then since then you've been more limited in what you've been able to do physically A That is correct sir Q You mentioned that your wife came with you this time You and your wife enjoy traveling together when you can A Well yes She comes more or less to help me bathe and - see at home we have a shower stall I can get in there and shower I can't get in a bathtub Q Okay In 1958 when the plant was sold by Illinois to Corning what was your position then 81 MR CONSTANTINE Objection scope THE COURT Overruled You may answer sir A I was production supervisor atte Q And you stayed on in that position for how long A Oh I'm going to say I had -- allow me to correct They changed titles and fortunately in order to up the salaries they made managers So I was production manager and then the plant 10 manager asked me if I could take over the 11 personnel department So for fifteen years 12 approximately I was production manager and 13 personnel manager 14 Q So for about fifteen years you held both 15 positions 16 A Yes sir 17 Q And do you know approximately when that 18 started 19 A I would say approximately 1965 20 Q So were you production supervisor from 21 when Corning bought it in '58 up till about 22 '65 And then from '65 until your retirement you 23 were production supervisor or excuse me 24 production manager and personnel director 82 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 A Sir that is generally as I recollect it It may be months different but -- Q Now I'm going back to the beginning of your employment there A Yes Q You first worked at Berlin then you worked at Sayreville then you worked at Berlin for the rest of your career Is that correct A Yes Q About how long were you at Berlin the first time A Well I started in Berlin on the 14th of February 1947. And I went to Sayreville on the 2nd of January 1948. And I went to Sayreville to organize the union and to help train people on equipment that they had there that I was familiar with I was there and returned home being a newly married person I returned home on August 2nd Q Of the same year of '48 A Yes yes sir Q So you were in Sayreville about eight A Just about even um um The rest of the time from '47 to '86 you 83 worked at the Berlin New Jersey plant A '47 to '86 Other than the time out for oth, Sayreville Q Oh I'm sorry I think I said '86 wrong What year did you retire I had that wrong A '84 Q '84 Okay Were you at Berlin from '47 to '84 A Yes sir 10 Q Except for the eight months you told us 11 about at Sayreville Now during that time you met 12 Jerry Helser correct 13 A Jerry Helser 14 Q Yes 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 A Yes sir yes Q When did you first meet Jerry A In Berlin Q And what brought the two of you together there at Berlin A Well Jerry worked at Berlin for awhile Q What jobs did he do at Berlin A I think Jerry was a product supervisor or 23 shift supervisor 24 Q So would he have been a shift supervisor 84 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 while you were a production manager A Yes Q Did he -- like was he immediately under you then A Yes Q And how long were you his boss A Oh I really don't remember because Jerry moved along Jerry had higher training than what was required for production supervision and I really don't remember sir Q Okay And about how long did Jerry work at the Berlin plant A That I don't remember Q Did you see Jerry come to the plant from time to time even when he wasn't there as a regular time employee A Yes I think I remember him coming in Q What was he doing on those visits A I don't know He was there to see the plant manager and whatever they had -- whatever business they had was not mine Q When did you become a part of the management of the plant A When 85 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 Q Yes A Um -- Q Were you still in the union in '58 when Corning bought the plant A Oh no no I became a shift foreman right after I got back from Sayreville which was 1947 And then I went to assistant personnel director with Jim Gaylord phonetic who was the personnel director in probably 1948 Q So from '48 on approximately you were a part of management at the plant and never again were a member of the union A I think that is correct sir Q Now you mentioned that you have had a chest ray approximately every year from 1947 to the present Is that correct A Yes sir Q Have you also had a physician physically examine you you know thump around on you and listen to your heartbeat and all that sort of thing at about the same time as the chest ray A No sir not since I was diagnosed with asbestosis Q When you were told you had asbestosis 86 vem 17 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 that is when the physical examinations stopped A No. That's when I started going to a chest Dr. Sokolowski phonetic every year Now as a manager I did have a yearly physical examination Q okay So every year that you have worked for either Illinois or Corning you've had a chest ray Right A Yes sir Q And every year you've had a physical examination by a doctor at the company's expense Is that correct A No sir Q Okay When you first started there how often were you having an examination by a company doctor A Yearly Q When did that stop A I really don't remember Q About how many do you remember having A Oh I'm going to say ten Used to go to the University of Pennsylvania and had a very thorough physical That was one of the reasons I stopped smoking 87 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 Q Tell us more about that A Well smoking and asbestosis don't go together And the doctor told me there is two things wrong you're overweight and you smoke So I was using three packs of cigarettes a day Not smoking three I may light up and phone rang and lay it in the ashtray and burn an ash that long But in three days I was finished smoking And I just felt that -- I just felt that smoking wasn't a good thing to continue to do with a lung condition Q You stopped smoking at the same time as you were told that you had asbestosis A Um just a few weeks after Q And what year was that A It was around between 1965 and 1970 Somewhere in there Q Now when you went to the University of -- did you say Pittsburgh A Pennsylvania Q University of Pennsylvania are their facilities in Philadelphia A Yes sir Q Okay When you went to the University 88 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 of -~- A University Hospital Q Okay When you went to University Hospital there in Philadelphia did the other blue collar workers go with you A No sir Q Did you first go to the University of Pennsylvania at Philadelphia as a management employee A Yes sir -- Q Did the other management A Just department managers Q Did the other department managers go there for physicals also A Yes sir Q When the department managers were going to University Hospital for their physicals where were the production workers going for their physicals A Plant physician Q What was that person's name A Well to begin with it was doctor -- um I forget the first one I will remember it Then it was Dr. Schwartz Dr. McNalley and -- the 89 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 name escapes me The first - the physician that was there when I started was Dr. Girard Q Did you ever meet a Dr. Charles Shook A Yes Q And how did you meet him A Well he was into the plant and I met him on an elevator in Washington one time Q Now was Charles Shook the plant physician when you first applied for work A No he was not a plant physician Q What did Charles Shook have to do with Illinois A He was the corporate medical director Q So Shook didn't come out and give anybody physical examinations correct A No sir not to my knowledge Q Now when you had that initial physical examination was that probably by Dr. Girard did you think A Yes sir Q What did Dr. Girard tell you about asbestos A The only thing I recall him saying was talking about the respirator program And at the 90 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 time silicosis was the big -- considered to be the big threat Q Well do you remember Dr. Girard saying anything about asbestos when he gave you your first examination A No sir I don't But I do remember the nurse talking to me about it Q And what was the nurse's name A I don't remember 0 How long did she serve the plant there after you hired on A That I don't remember Q What did the nurse tell you about asbestos A She told me that it was a fibrous material that could be inhaled and if it went down in the lungs you could not get it out and that it caused a pleural thickening in the lung Q So in 1947 when you first hired on with Illinois Illinois nurse told you that you could get pleural thickening from inhaling asbestos Correct- A Yes sir Q Did she tell you it was a good thing or a 91 bad thing to get pleural thickening A I don't remember her saying it was good or bad But I interpreted what she said it was a bad a thing Q Did you know at that time what part of the anatomy got thick when you got this pleural thickening A What part of the anatomy got what Q Yes When the nurse said now Mr. 10 Grimmie if you hire on here and if you inhale 11 asbestos it's going to make you have pleural 12 thickening did you understand what she meant by 13 your pleura was going to get thick 14 A She said the lung 15 Q She said the pleura was part of the lung 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 A Yes Q Okay And did she tell you what you might notice yourself if your pleura became thick A No I have no recollection of her saying that I didn't -- didn't know the pleura was part of the lung I thought it was a condition Q I'm sorry go ahead A Well if you look at my chest ray you'll see the bottom of both lungs you can see the line 92 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 where I'm contaminated And the doctor called that pleural thickening Q And this nurse back in 1947 used those same words pleural thickening to describe to you what would happen if you breathed in any asbestos while you worked for Illinois Is that right A As part of the respirator program she said that respirators were needed to protect me from silica and asbestos and she said that asbestos was a lung disease that would reduce my breathing capacity Q Did she tell you how soon after you breathed in the asbestos you would have this -- A Now this was a registered nurse not a doctor A registered nurse And I don't think that she knew any of this information She knew what to tell me to try to prevent this from happening But I think she would be stepping out of her territory if she were to diagnose me So have no recollection of her telling me Her main objective was to instill in my mind the necessity for a respirator program in this particular area Q Did you apply for work in the dusty area 93 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 A Apply for work Q Yes A I went where I was assigned Q Did the nurse say that you were going to be assigned to the dusty area A No. She didn't know where I was going to be assigned Q She just -A It was up to the plant engineer where I was going to be assigned Q She just said in case you get assigned to the dusty area then you will be asked to wear a respirator A I don't remember her saying that She said your supervisor will provide you a respirator when you go into an area where it's needed And that is the program we had set up Q Did the nurse tell you how soon after you inhaled the asbestos you would notice some consequence from it A I don't know if she told me or whether I read it but it takes about twenty years for it to show up Q I don't think anyone is quarreling with 94 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 that But my question was did the nurse back there at that time when you first applied for work did she tell you how soon after you breathe in the asbestos you'll notice something bad from having breathed it in A I have no recollection of her telling me that Q When in your career did you learn that twenty years have to go by between when you breathe in the asbestos and you notice something going on in your body as a result of breathing it in A I don't know if it was when I read a report in the medical journal written by Dr. Selikoff from the Mount Sinai Hospital in New York where his work convinced the medical field that asbestos could cause lung cancer and I think I read in there where it takes twenty years for the condition to develop Q How did you come into contact with the article written by Dr. Selikoff A I think the nurse showed it to me Q Do you remember that lady's name A Naomi Blatherwick phonetic 95 Sad Q And do you remember approximately what + part of the sixties it was when she gave you a copy of the Selikoff article A Around 1965 Q Had you heard about asbestos being a cause of cancer before 1965 A No sir Q So nothing about that first meeting that you had with the nurse alerted you to the fact 10 that asbestos would cause cancer correct 11 A No sir 12 Q Is that true Mr. Grimmie 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 A That's true Q And then throughout the rest of your journey with Illinois and then later with Corning you heard nothing about asbestos being a cause of cancer until you got the Selikoff article in approximately 1965. Is that true A That is true Did anyone MR WALKER May I answer Your Honor THE COURT No counsel Q When Mr. Kelly came to your home there and was talking with you about Grimmie could you go out to Illinois and help us out in this trial did 96 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 he tell you that one of the issues in this case is when was it that Illinois learned that asbestos caused cancer A No sir Q Did Mr. Kelly tell you that by the time you get there on the stand Mr. Grimmie there will already be a lot of documents in evidence showing that Illinois did know or should have known that asbestos was a cause of cancer clear back in the fifties A No sir MR O'HARA Objection Your Honor argumentative misstates the prior testimony THE COURT Overruled Q Did Mr. Kelly tell you that the day before you're on the stand a fellow by the name of Kerby whom we have called in a lot of trials will testify that it was well known in the medical community that asbestos was a cause of cancer at least by the 1950s A No he didn't tell me anything about Dr. Kerby Q What kind of fellow is this Kelly A Well I think he's a decent sort of guy 97 MR WALKER Would this be a time to break Your Honor THE COURT Yes it would be Go ahead and put your note pads upside down Step back to the jury deliberation room get ready for lunch THE FOLLOWING PROCEEDINGS WERE HAD OUT OF THE PRESENCE OF THE JURY sh THE COURT Jurors have left the courtroom Let's take a lunch recess 1 10 You can step down sir Thank you Enjoy 11 your lunch 12 THE NOON RECESS WAS TAKEN 13 THE COURT Record reflect all parties have 14 returned to the courtroom Counsel ready to 15 proceed 16 MR O'HARA Yes Your Honor 17 THE COURT All right Bring the jurors back 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 in THE FOLLOWING PROCEEDINGS WERE HAD IN THE PRESENCE OF THE JURY THE COURT Be seated record reflect jurors have returned to the courtroom THE COURT You may continue BY MR WALKER 98 fi/ fl Q Mr. Grimmie I forgot to ask this fellow Kelly whom did he say he was working for A I misstated Riley Q Riley is his name Okay And whom did Mr. Riley say he was working for A For Joe Q Riley said that he was a partner with Joe 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 A Yes Q The fellow that asked you the questions here first this morning A Yes Q Okay Now we were talking about your physical examinations and you said once you became part of management then you had an annual physical examinations for about ten years at the University of Pennsylvania in Philadelphia Do you remember that A Well I said all department managers had an annual physical examination Just department managers Q And when is the last time you had an annual physical examination at the University of Pennsylvania 99 A I don't remember Q Would it have ended in the sixties or in the seventies A I honestly don't remember Q Okay After you had your last examination at the University of Pennsylvania where did you have your next company physical examination A From Dr. Sokolowski Q Where does he make his office 10 A He makes his office in Pennsaukin 11 Q For those of us that haven't been that far 12 east is that a town in New Jersey a] 13 A Yes it's between Camden and Berlin 14 Q All right 15 A He is a lung specialist 16 Q And who pays for your appointments with 17 that physician 18 A Workers compensation 19 Q Um how often do you see that doctor 20 A I see him twice a year which incidentally 21 I see him Monday 22 Q Okay 23 A I have ray once a year so I have to get 24 rayed before I go to him on Monday Then it's 100 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 six months I go back and he'll put me on a machine and check my breathing capacity Q Okay Where do you get the ray A At an ray facility operated by a group of doctors one of which is Dr. Sokolowski Q Okay And is that the place where you go in there you see all the other old rays of your chest A Yes sir Q And -- A The -- Q Go ahead A Well when I go for the ray they file my rays there They'll take the new one put it in the file give it to me and I will take it to the doctor's office it's filed at the -- Q Probably goes clear back to the forties when you had your first chest ray at Illinois A Yes Q Now is there like a club or a group of you fellows that used to work at Berlin that you get together from time to time like an old timers club or anything of that nature 101 A No. I tried to get something started when I found out that Corning was leaving Berlin I thought we should have a group together so we'd have some sort of contact But I didn't have enough money to pull them together and no one else was -- no there is no old timers club Q Okay The fellows that you do run into where are they having their physical examinations now 10 A Dr. Sokolowski 11 Q He gives the exam for all the fellows that 12 you know of 13 A Yes 14 Q And so far as you know who pays for his } 15 examining the Berlin workers 16 A Workers compensation 17 Q And like is that -- well who is workers 18 compensation What company is that 19 A Well it's an organization in New Jersey 20 that each worker pays a certain percentage of his 21 weekly earnings into workers comp and then if 22 you're hurt on the job in New Jersey you can't 23 sue your employer Workers compensation takes 24 care of your needs 102  And so far as you can tell is workers compensation providing for the annual physicals for all the old Berlin workers that you know of A Yes sir Q And that includes an annual chest ray A Yes sir Q Now when you got your physical examination there at the University of Pennsylvania how were the results reported to 10 you 11 A I sat down and had a consultation with the 12 doctor And his report went to Dr. Shook I 13 believe it was at the time in Toledo 14 Q And did the doctor there at the University 15 of Pennsylvania did he or she tell you about what 16 could happen if you breathed in asbestos 17 A I don't recall that The last time I 18 remember the doctor sat down and he said there is 19 two things wrong You're too fat and you smoke 20 Q So you don't remember any of the doctors 21 at the University of Pennsylvania talking to you 22 about what might happen to you if you breathed in 23 asbestos 24 A No. 103 Q How about Dr. Shook Did he ever come up to you and explain to you what could happen if you MINE inhale asbestos A Not to my knowledge not to my I recollection Q How about Dr. McNally He was the company doctor for awhile A Yes yes Q Did Dr. McNally ever come up to you and 10 explain what could happen from inhaling airborne 11 asbestos 12 A Yes Dr. McNally and I sat across the 13 table from each other and discussed this I hired 14 Dr. McNally 15 Q When was that 16 A Wow Dr. McNally followed Dr. Schwartz 17 Dr. Schwartz died I don't remember the exact 18 year 19 Q Do you think it might have been in the 20 seventies or in the eighties 21 MR O'HARA Objection Your Honor 22 THE COURT Overruled 23 A I think in the seventies 24 Q Did you ever meet a man named Jon Konzen 104 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 A John Konden Q Konzen n A We had a John Konden and a Charlie Konden work at the plant One was a sheet metal worker and one was a machinist Q This fellow was a physician and he made his office in Toledo Dr. Jon Konzen A Konzen Q Yes A Yes Q When did you first meet Dr. Konzen A I don't remember Q Did Dr. Konzen ever explain to you what happens when someone inhales airborne asbestos A Well to me alone When Dr. Konzen would come in he would go to the plant manager And the plant manager if there was something that needed to be relayed he would call all department managers in to the conference room I don't specifically remember Dr. Konzen speaking on inhaling asbestos Q Now do you remember a Dr. Billmaier That is his last name Billmaier together for the last name Dr. Billmaier 105 A The name is familiar I don't remember the -- Q Before you came the jury saw an exhibit one of -- well they have seen a number of exhibits ore but one is 29 and it is dated May of 1978 and it's a memo about Dr. Billmaier having gone to the Berlin plant in 1978 and talked to the employees at several different shifts about asbestos and 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 health Do you remember Dr. Billmaier coming there and talking -- A I have no recollection of that Q Talking to the whole shift at a time A I have no recollection of that Q Who was R.S. Hite A Dick Hite was the plant manager Q Would he have been in 1978 A I believe so yes Q How about W.H. Warmath A Russ Warmath was in personnel Q What was his position in 1978 A I believe he was personnel manager Q Was he like your immediate boss A No I was production manager at the time 106 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 Q You didn't have a personnel responsibility in '78 A Right Q And Dr. McNally we have already talked about him How about first initial B last name Neill A B. Neill Is there an RN following it Q Well not in this memo it's just 1-1 A Well we had -- our plant nurse was Barbara Neill Q Okay And who was W.K. Hamilton A The name again please Q W. Hamilton A Don't know that one Q Now in this document Corning says that Dr. Billmaier told the workers about asbestos and health and then you know some of the fellows asked questions and Dr. Billmaier made notes of the questions One of the questions was does asbestosis lead to lung cancer and according to this memo Dr. Billmaier answered If a person has asbestosis it indicates there has been exposure to asbestos However a person with asbestosis 107 does not have a greater chance of getting lung cancer than a fellow worker exposed to asbestos but without asbestosis 1 Do you remember anybody at Corning telling you that A No sir Q Do you remember anybody at Illinois telling you that A No sir 1 10 Q Do you remember anyone coming back to ner 11 Berlin and correcting what Dr. Billmaier said some 12 time after May of 1978 In other words somebody re! 13 came back and said you know Billmaier some of his 14 speech was wrong and we need to get that 15 corrected 16 A No I don't remember that I hope they 17 did though 18 Q In exhibit 29 it says that It might be 19 worthwhile to print these questions and answers up 20 into a pamphlet and distribute the pamphlet to 21 employees 22 Did you ever get a pamphlet from 23 Corning that explained the hazards of 24 asbestos in sort of a question and answer form 108 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 A Not to my recollection Q Did you ever see other employees around there that had such a pamphlet A Not to my recollection Q Well did you ever get a pamphlet from Corning that explained the hazards of asbestos even if it didn't use the question and answer method Just in text just laid it all out A A pamphlet No sir Q How about any written document A Yes there was bulletin board notices Q Okay Were these on the bulletin boards in the plant itself A Yes five locations Q Tell us what you saw on those bulletin boards about the relationship between asbestos and health A Just exactly what we have been talking about If you inhale asbestos it can eventually cause asbestosis and that could turn to I believe the term is melanoma cancer Q When did you first see something on the bulletin boards at Berlin that said that asbestos could cause asbestosis 109 A I haven't the slightest idea when I saw it Q Was it there when you went to work in '47 A No sir Q Can you give the jury any feel for the decade that you first saw on the bulletin boards of Berlin information that asbestos could cause asbestosis A I would say sometime in the 1960s mare 10 Q Who puts the materials on the bulletin mee 11 board that talked about asbestos and asbestosis 12 A In that case it would have been the plant mom 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 manager went out over his signature Q And what was the plant manager's name A I -- hmm -- there was only eleven of them I think it might have been Hite Dick Hite Q Now when you first saw a bulletin board document that talked about asbestos and asbestosis did it say anything about cancer 20 A I don't recall 21 Q When the nurse gave you the article 22 written by Dr. Selikoff do you remember that 23 A Yes 24 Q Had you already seen something on the 110 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 bulletin board about asbestos causing cancer A I don't recall seeing anything I think that was the first time that connection was made Q Did the plant manager put a copy of Dr. Selikoff's article on the bulletin board A Not to my recollection The plant physician did Q What was his name A Henry Schwartz Q How many of the bulletin boards did Dr. Schwartz put a copy of Selikoff's article on A Five Q And about when did Dr. Schwartz do that A Sometime after I believe the middle of 1965 Q How long did the Selikoff articles -- excuse me How long did the Selikoff articles stay on each of the five bulletin boards A I don't know The articles like that would have remained for at least two weeks Q If Jerry Helser was working there it would almost be impossible for him not to see that article on at least one bulletin board wouldn't it 111 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 MR CONSTANTINE Objection speculation A It would appear to me yes THE COURT Objection sustained Q Well in your opinion Mr. Grimmie given that there were five bulletin boards and they were all five in fairly prominent locations weren't they A Yes that is the purpose of bulletin boards Q I mean one was by the restroom right A Yes Q And the others were by equally populated places places where people had to go and sometimes lingered a minute and might be likely to read whatever is on the bulletin board A Yeah like the men's room and the ladies room Q So if the Selikoff article was on there in 1965 and if Helser was there at the plant in '65 it's likely he would have seen it at least on one occasion MR CONSTANTINE Hold on Mr. Grimmie Objection speculation Your Honor THE COURT Sustained 112 Q What is the next thing you saw on the bulletin board about the relationship between asbestos and human disease A I haven't the slightest idea Q Do you think anything else was posted on the bulletin board about asbestos and disease A I don't remember Q If anything else was posted you don't remember it Is that correct 10 A That is correct 11 Q So far as this disease asbestosis that Mr. 12 O'Hara O'Hara was asking you about can you give us some 13 feel for what part of your body is affected by 14 that 15 A Asbestosis 16 Q Yes 17 A My lung 18 Q Okay And is that the same part of your 19 body that has this thickening 20 A Yes 21 Q So asbestosis and pleural thickening are 22 the same thing as it's been described to you 23 Correct 24 A That is as I understood it 113 Q And how many different times has a law -- a doctor paid by Corning explained it to you 1 A Every six months for the past since what 1968 I believe Q Now the asbestos that Illinois was putting in Kaylo back in 1947 and '48 what type of asbestos was that A There was several types 10 Q Do you remember the names of any of them 11 A One was amosite one was chrysotile 12 Q Did the amosite come in bags that are 13 similar to the bags here on exhibit 170 14 THE COURT That is plaintiffs exhibit 15 MR WALKER Plaintiffs exhibit 170 16 A Burlap Yes 17 Q In fact the amosite came to the Berlin 18 plant in burlap bags that weighed about a hundred 19 pounds is your recollection 20 A Yes 21 Q And did you sometimes pile the bags 22 similar to what the piles are shown in Exhibit 23 170 24 A No we piled them on pallets 114 10 11 23 23 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 Q Then used a forklift A So a forklift could pick them up and put them up on the batch floor Q Well when they arrived at your plant they were in railroad cars Is that right A Yes sir Q And the fellows had to unload them out of the cars by hand right A That is correct Q Where did they pile them before they put them on the pallets and moved them to the grinding machines A Before they -- no they put them -immediately when they picked them up they put them on the pallet Q Okay So in your plant when they were stacked ready to use they were already on a pallet A Yes Q How much asbestos did you use a week at Berlin A Well I have not the slightest idea H can tell you how much asbestos went into a batch if you or anyone can figure that But I have 115 heard Kaylo referred to as asbestos insulation Thirteen percent of the solids in the batch was asbestos Q So far as how many train cars came in week or a month it wasn't part of your job to order that is that correct A No that was the purchasing agent Q Now what did the bags of asbestos say would happen to you if you breathed any of the I 10 dust that came off the asbestos 11 A I don't remember them saying anything 12 until later on after Dr. Selikoff 13 Q What did they say then 14 A Harmful to your health 15 Q Did it explain what part of your body 16 would be harmed 17 A Not that I recall There is only so much 18 you can put on burlap 19 Q Did it use the word cancer 20 A Not that I recall 21 Q What did the boxes of Kaylo say would 22 happen to someone if they breathed the dust given 23 off by Kaylo when the boxes went out of the Berlin 24 plant 116 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 A Um in the beginning we were stenciling -- I forget the exact wording harmful if inhaled And then it became art work on the box But -- Q Now when you say in the beginning when was it that either -- when was it that Illinois first put on the box that the dust from Kaylo would be harmful if inhaled A I think when it became known that asbestos could cause lung cancer Q So when you learned that asbestos could cause lung cancer that is when whoever owned the plant started putting something on the box that asbestos could be harmful Correct A I believe so Q And you learned about asbestos and cancer in 1965 A Yes sir Q So then would it be correct that throughout the time that you worked there for Illinois in the forties and fifties there was nothing on the box about the dust causing harm A That is as I recall Q And then throughout the rest of the 117 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 fifties and the first half of the sixties when you worked there for Corning there was nothing on the box that talked about harm A That is as I recall Q Who at Corning told you what Corning just learned that caused it to start putting something on the box MR CONSTANTINE Objection compound calls for speculation THE COURT Overruled You can answer A I thought I answered that Dr. Schwartz had a medical journal and he gave it to the nurse and she passed it around She passed it to me and I passed it around Q You did tell us that about the article I was now over on the boxes that the Kaylo was shipped out in Do you remember that A Yes Q Okay You had worked there for about eighteen years and the boxes didn't say anything about harm Remember from '47 to '65 or '66 So for the first eighteen years you were there there was nothing about harm on the boxes Do you remember that 118 ... 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 A okay Q Okay Then all of the sudden Corning decided to start stamping something on the box talking about harm Remember that A Yes Q Okay And of course then that was changed right A Changed Q I say that was -- in other words things had been going one way for seventeen or eighteen years and now all of the sudden the boxes say something about the dust coming from the product being harmful A Yeah I think that is better than ignoring the condition Q And my question was when the fellows that decided to put this on the box were talking with you about it what did they say had come into the life of Corning that caused it to put this stamped material on the box A Why do you think they would talk to me about it Q I'm just asking you if they did talk to you about it 119 A The production planning manager would et issue instructions on what was produced how it was packaged and where it went in the warehouse If he wanted something on the carton he would be Seed the one to put the instruction in His name is Bill Justice Excuse me Was Bill Justice Q So your recollection is that Bill Justice is the fellow who decided to put this language on the box aed 10 A No. 11 Q Who did decide 12 A I do not know All I'm saying is someone 13 probably told Bill Justice we want something on 14 the carton saying that there is a hazard here 15 Q Did the carton ever say that the dust was 16 hazardous 17 A I forget what the wording was 18 Q Those maintenance fellows that went into 19 the baghouse you know they went down into the 20 baghouse and shook the dust out of the dust i 21 collectors do you remember telling us about that 22 A Yes 23 Q What were their names 24 A What were their names 120 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 Q Yes A Frank Kafao phonetic and his brother Paul Kafao They're the only two that I remember Q How are Frank and Paul getting along now A How are they getting along Yes Well it's hard to tell they're both dead Right And when did they die Some years ago They were up in years Q How old were they when they died A Oh I think Paul was the oldest Paul was probably between seventy and eighty and Frank was a few years younger Q This photograph that was taken here had you fellows standing around the saw and I think you saw the saw was used what to kind of trim up the ends of the Kaylo pipe covering A Trim the legs Q Trim the long horizontal cut A That is correct Q Okay Now of course when that saw went through the Kaylo it gave off dust didn't it A Yes Q So the saw was one of the dusty areas of 121 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 the plant Right A It would have been if we hadn't had a dust collecting system Q So the saw wasn't one of the areas where employees were ordered to wear a respirator A That is correct it was not required Q I see in this picture none of you fellows are wearing a respirator none of the ones in the photograph Do you see -- I assume it looks the same to you A hmm Q When you went out in the plant there in the fifties and sixties did you wear a respirator A No sir Q Well did any of the management people wear a respirator A Not that I recall Q Now when you were in the service you saw that one of the ways that officers lead troops is by example Right A I beg your pardon Q When you were in the military service you observed that one of the ways that officers lead 122 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 their troops is by example Correct A Sometimes Q And when did you see management of Corning showing the workers by example that they needed to wear a respirator to protect them from some hazard that was in the air of the plant A I didn't Q The jury has seen an exhibit it's marked 282 and it's dated April and May of 1958 Now you were at Berlin in April and May of 1958 Correct A Yes Q This document for example refers to you as being the production superintendent Does that sound right A Yes sir Q And it is one of those instances where Aetna came into the plant and two of these five fellows are employees of Aetna aren't they in the photograph A I think so Bernie and Paul Shoe Q Two of the fellows from Aetna came into the plant in April and May of 1958 and they commented about the practices of using a broom to sweep up the dust Were Illinois people 123 told to sweep up asbestos dust with brooms in 1958 104,78 A Asbestos dust Q Perhaps I should call it Kaylo dust A Well they were to clean work areas yes Q And did they use brooms - were they provided brooms to do that A Yes Q And then also Aetna talks about blowing 10 down dust off of the overhead beams and so forth 11 Do you remember doing that there at the plant 12 where the workers used compressed air and blew the 13 dust off the flat surfaces 14 A I remember doing that during the strike 15 yeah 16 Q What strike was that 17 A When the union struck the plant 18 Q And what -- why did the union strike the 19 plant 20 A Well perhaps you could answer that 21 question We were in the negotiations President 22 Nixon had put a freeze on wages and the company 23 offered the union what the government regulation 24 was and they turned it down And they struck for 124 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 92 days And then they came back to work for the very same thing that they struck Q Now this is a strike you're talking about during the time that Richard Nixon was President of the United States A Yes sir Q Okay I was talking about an earlier period 1958 where Aetna reported that Illinois had been blowing dust down off of the overhead beams and so forth with compressed air Do you remember that A I don't remember it but I don't doubt it Q Okay A It may have been a plant clean up which gets everything cleaned up and start from scratch Q The jury has also seen exhibit 264 It shows fellow running a saw through a piece of Kaylo Do you see that picture there inside of plaintiffs exhibit 264 A Yes Q And you see how the artist depicted some lines coming down from that saw where dust ~~ it appears that he's trying to portray dust coming off Is that the way you remembered what happened 125 when Kaylo pipe covering or block was cut with a em power saw that gave off dust A No sir you couldn't see that. The dust ee collector would grab it before you could see it i -~ Q So actually A This is a handled saw Q What were the fellows sweeping up then with the brooms A What were they sweeping up then with the 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 brooms Q Yes sir A Dirt from molds Q What was that dirt made of A Well it could have been dried Kaylo It could have been wet Kaylo I don't know My wife sweeps the kitchen quite frequently and I don't ask her what the dirt is made up of Q The jury has seen exhibit 284 -- plaintiffs exhibit 284 where Illinois said that Kaylo was irritating to the skin Did ever find Kaylo to be irritating to the skin you A No sir Q Now what did Illinois tell you as to whether Kaylo was toxic or not 126 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 A Toxic Q Yes A The only thing that we were told was inhaling Q Inhaling what Mr. Grimmie A Kaylo dust Q You were told by Illinois that if you inhaled Kaylo dust it could be toxic to you A Asbestos silica Q Am I correct though that Illinois told you that Kaylo dust was toxic A I don't understand toxic To me toxic is getting a bad bottle of booze or something like that You can walk up to a piece of Kaylo and pick it up and it's not going to bite you And chances are it won't harm you unless you scrape it or disturb it and then it takes from what I have been told a certain amount or more to become harmful to you Q The jaws of Kaylo close fairly slowly don't they MR O'HARA Objection Your Honor argumentative THE COURT Sustained 127 A No sir Q Well -- A Is there an objection Can I answer that a THE COURT No don't answer that sir Q Do you remember you talked about the posters that were there on the wall at the Berlin plant A On the wall and bulletin boards Q Walls bulletin boards and so forth 10 A Yes 11 Q What did those posters say about the 12 effect of asbestos or Kaylo dust being in the air 13 of the plant 14 A I don't remember the exact wording but 15 basically inhaling Kaylo dust can be harmful to 16 your health 17 Q There were posters like that on the walls 18 of the plant at Berlin New Jersey Is that your 19 testimony 20 A Were there posters like that Yes 21 Q Were there posters on the walls of the 22 plant at Berlin New Jersey that said inhaling 23 Kaylo dust can be harmful to your health 24 A Yes 128 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 Q When did they first appear A I don't remember Q Were there any there in the 1940s the first three years that you worked there A I don't remember that Q Were there any there in the 1950s the next ten years that you worked there A I would say yes in the 1950s Q When did the signs go up at the Berlin plant saying Kaylo dust was dangerous A Kaylo dust is dangerous Q Yes A I thought that was the last question you asked You're repeating the question Q Do you remember when you first saw a sign on the wall of the Berlin New Jersey plant that said Kaylo dust was dangerous A I believe sometime in the 1950s Q Before you saw the Selikoff article correct A Yes Q When you saw that sign did you get close enough that you could read all the words A Yeah there wasn't many words on it It 129 was a big poster Q Tell us again as best you remember what the words were A Kaylo dust can be harmful to your health Wear your respirator Q Did the sign explain what harm would come from Kaylo dust A Not that I recall Q Did the sign explain when the harm would 10 come so far as you remember 11 A Not that I recall 12 Q Did the sign use the word asbestosis to 13 explain the harm 14 A Not that I recall 15 Q Did the sign use the word cancer to 16 explain the harm 17 A No. We knew nothing about association 18 with cancer until 1965 19 Q So far as you know Illinois never 20 knew anything about cancer during the time that 21 you worked for Illinois because 22 Illinois never told you anything about 23 cancer Right 24 A Did Illinois know anything about it 130 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 Q That is my question A Did I mention to you that every hourly employee got a physical examination each year Q I think you did A Every hourly not only salary Every hourly employee got a physical examination by the plant physician and he explained to them what the situation was Q Oh When you were an hourly employee did the physician that gave you a physical examination explain to you what could happen from breathing the airborne dust in the plant A Yes I could get asbestosis Q Okay And the first physician was Schwartz did you say A No sir Dr. Girard Q Girard thank you And did Dr. Girard tell you how long after you inhaled the material in the plant's air it would take for you to become sick A I don't recall that I don't know if they knew that then Q Well let's take it one step at a time Do you remember Dr. Girard telling you how 131 , 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 long after you inhaled the dust that it might make you sick A I don't recall him telling me that Q When did Illinois learn the length of time it takes between inhaling the type of dust that was at the Kaylo plant and when the worker comes down with disease A I don't know Q Your thinking was as soon as Illinois learned about the details of what bad could happen from inhaling Kaylo dust it told all of the members of it's workforce Correct A Yes Q And the same is true -- A By bulletin board or poster communication Q And of course by telling each worker at the annual physical by the company doctor A That is correct Q Which was first Dr. Girard and then Dr. Schwartz and then Dr. McNally A Right Q And had Dr. McNally known about the relationship between asbestos and cancer before '65 he would have told the workers as soon as he 132 knew about it right A I can't answer for Dr. McNally Q When you interviewed Dr. McNally for his job there did he tell you about the relationship between asbestos and disease or did you tell him A I didn't interview him He was my family doctor I just hired him on Q I see You just asked him if he would be willing to work for the plant 10 A Yes 11 Q Okay But did you ever discuss asbestos 12 and disease with Dr. McNally 13 A There were times when he would get in his 14 medical journals there would be articles on 15 asbestosis and he would show them to me and the 16 plant nurse as did all the doctors But there was 17 never a sit down classroom that we are going to 18 give you a crash course in medicine 19 Q hmm And how was it that you then 20 conveyed this information on to the hourly 21 workers 22 A By poster and bulletin board and the plant 23 physician talking to them at their annual physical 24 time 133 Q Did you ever sit in on any of those plant physician discussions to see what it was that Dr. McNally told the workers A Privileged communication Q Well who claims it is confidential what Corning told its employees about the health hazards of asbestos A What the doctor discussed with his patient we did not stick our nose into 10 Q How did Corning make sure that the 11 doctor was telling the patient all the patient 12 needed to know about the health hazards -- 13 A There is such a thing as trust 14 Q Like employees trust their employer 15 A Yes an 16 Q You were telling us a little bit about why 17 it is that Corning bought the plant from 18 Illinois and what you said was that 19 Corning was already in the insulation 20 business before it started distributing Kaylo in 21 153. Right 22 A That was my understanding yes 23 Q But there was some jobs where 24 Corning wasn't currently able to sell the 134 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 entire range of products that would be needed to finish a project Correct A That was my understanding of the thought process Q So Corning who in the forties were talking about the evils of asbestos started selling containing Kaylo in the fifties so that it could sell an entire job MR CONSTANTINE Well objection misstates whatever it is Mr. Walker --~ THE COURT Sustained Q Actually this worked out all right from the Corning standpoint because eventually it became the largest insulation supplier in the United States Right MR CONSTANTINE Objection relevance A Well it probably earned it THE COURT Overruled Q Do you remember talking about you yourself wore a device that captured some air and pulled it through a filter down here by your hip A Yes sir Q Now when you got into management ~-- well let me ask a different question When you were 135 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 one of the workers who wore that device did someone bring you the results of the analysis after the stuff was counted on the filter A No sir Q Well how is it that you learned whether there was enough or too much or too little of this dust in the air A The report went to the plant manager Q And did the plant manager tell you how much dust was in the air A The plant manager would pass it onto the department manager Q Did the -- A Usually the plant engineer would be brought in if there was a problem and they would engineer the problem out Q And when you were wearing this device in the forties did they bring you a copy of the results of the test for the device that you wore A No. I thought I just answered that no Q Was there ever a point in your career where the results of these dust sampling efforts were communicated to you A Yes The plant manager would get the 136 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 reports and he would go over them with me and the plant engineer and if there was a problem area the engineer department would go out and construct new equipment to solve the problem Q Take a look at exhibit 282 Is this the type of report that you got and -- let me ask you a different question Do you remember getting that report in 1958 A No. Q Did you get reports like that in the fifties A I don't remember that report Q It talks about you being part of the group there when the dust was collected It says that in the first paragraph Did you notice that A Yes Q Well was it your recollection that whoever collected the dust they didn't report the results to you A That is correct It would have gone to the plant manager Q Where are the results of the other tests if there were tests done in the forties and fifties Where are those results 137 A Where are they - Q As far as you know I mean does Illinois or Corning still have them as far as you know A No I think all of that stuff has been scrapped except medical records when they closed ~~ the plant is closed You know that Q The Berlin plant is closed A I'm sure you know that 10 Q Were you there when it was closed to see 11 what was thrown away and what wasn't 12 A No I was retired before that happened 13 Q Okay Well somehow this 1958 record is 14 still surviving and I wondered if you knew 15 anything about the other records that were made in 16 the fifties and the records made in the forties 17 and so forth 18 A No I don't 19 Q Now the posters that were on the wall that 20 said breathing Kaylo dust can be harmful did they 21 stay up into the sixties 22 A I don't think so 23 Q They were in the fifties but came down 24 before 19607 138 A Yeah I think they would become tattered and torn and just sort of housekeeping bit would eliminate them Q Well were new posters erected when the old ones became tattered and torn A There was bulletin board announcements 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 would go up periodically Q In the 1960s were there any posters on the wall of the plant that said Kaylo dust can be hazardous to your health A I don't know if there was posters on the wall Q How about in the 1970s were there any posters on the wall at the Berlin New Jersey plant A I don't recall Q Saying that Kaylo dust can be hazardous to your health A I don't recall Q Now the jury has seen exhibit 265 where Mr. Staelin sent some articles on asbestos dust to Mr. Hazard in September of 1941. Did Mr. Hazard ever share those articles with you A In 1941 139 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 Q Take a look at that exhibit if you want It is a letter from Mr. Staelin to Mr. Hazard saying thanks for letting us borrow these two articles about asbestos and it's written in 1941 A So the articles must have been written before 1941 Q That is the assumption I made And my question is did Mr. Hazard ever loan them to you A No sir Q Did Mr. Hazard describe to you how Illinois sent Kaylo dust off to a place called Saranac Lake New York and had certain experiments run there with animals other than man A No. Mr. Hazard did not Q Have you ever learned about the animal experiments that were done at Saranac Lake A No. I knew that samples were sent to Saranac Lake but I didn't know there was animal experiments That is the Trudeau Laboratory you're speaking of Q The Trudeau Foundation is a part of what is known as the Saranac Laboratory yes sir When did you first learn that Kaylo dust had been sent to Saranac or Trudeau 140 A I don't remember when I first learned Q Was it in the forties or fifties A I don't remember when I first learned Q And when you first learned was it at one of the depositions or did you learn about it before the depositions A No I think I learned of it somewhere through the personnel department Q And what did you learn was the reason that 10 Illinois sent the Kaylo dust to Saranac 11 Lake 12 A As I recall they were asking for tests to 13 be made on the effects of Kaylo dust and asbestos 14 to the lung 15 Q And were you given any information as to 16 the nature of those tests 17 A It was out of my area 18 Q Were you told that Saranac had exposed 19 animals other than man to this Kaylo dust and then 20 allowed the animals to live for various lengths of 21 time killed them and looked at their lungs to see 22 if they were having any lung disease as a result 23 of inhaling the Kaylo dust 24 A No that is news to me 141 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 -- So today is the first you learned about the animals inhaling the Kaylo dust at Saranac Correct A Yes sir Q The jury has plaintiffs exhibit 263 where Arthur Vorwald of Saranac writes to U.E. Boews phonetic Did you ever know Boews A Yes Q And among other things he concludes his letter by saying I realize that our findings regarding Kaylo are less favorable than anticipated However since Kaylo is capable of producing asbestosis it is better to discover it now in animals rather than later in the industrial workers Today is the first you learned that Kaylo dust caused asbestosis in animals Correct A Yes Q Plaintiffs move into evidence OI 513 and OI 516 THE COURT I don't have any copies of those Any objection MR O'HARA No Your Honor we were going to move them anyway 142 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 MR CONSTANTINE Objection hearsay authentication as to Corning Your Honor MR WALKER Let me ask a couple questions if I may Judge THE COURT All right Q Mr. Grimmie the jury has seen exhibit 283 which is the contract between Corning and Illinois regarding the sale of the Berlin plant and the Kaylo line And of course you were there at Berlin -- I mean literally you worked for Illinois and the next day you worked for Corning Correct A That is correct Q And were you aware that the records stayed there at the facilities I mean Illinois didn't move all the paper out of the plant the day it sold the plant correct MR CONSTANTINE Objection compound leading THE COURT Sustained MR CONSTANTINE Well I will withdraw as to leading but as to compound I object MR WALKER I will ask a different question ' Mr. Grimmie you had an office job in 143 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 1958 Correct A Office job Q Well you had a desk that was considered your desk in 1958 Correct A Yes Q And you had some papers that you had gathered together in the manner that you wanted to gather them Correct A Yes Q Other people with managerial responsibilities had also gathered together certain papers which they wanted correct MR CONSTANTINE Objection speculation A I would imagine so THE COURT Overruled Q Now the day it was last called an Illinois plant the papers you had were still there Correct A Yes Q And the next morning when it was -started being called an Corning plant the papers you had when you were an Illinois employee were still at your desk correct A Yes 144 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 Q Pardon A Yes sir Q So whatever it was that Illinois had in 1950 and 1951 in terms of documents Corning had them in 1958 MR CONSTANTINE Hold on Mr. Grimmie Objection speculation Your Honor THE COURT Sustained Q Do you know of any documents that were prepared during the Illinois period that Corning destroyed MR CONSTANTINE Objection Speculation THE COURT Overruled A Would you please repeat that question Q Do you know of any documents that were prepared during the time that Illinois ran the Berlin plant which would include the late forties and the first eight years of the fifties which documents were then later destroyed by Corning A What sir do you mean by documents You mean the attendance record of an employee Is that a document Q I would say so 145 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 AI AI have -- I have no recollection of that ever happening Q So you don't remember Corning destroying any of the documents that it received from Illinois do you MR CONSTANTINE Objection assumes a fact not in evidence MR WALKER Just asking what he remembers Your Honor THE COURT Overruled A No. MR WALKER I reoffer OI 513 and 516 MR CONSTANTINE Judge I object to 513 and 516 on hearsay and authentication grounds MR WALKER Let me have another shot at it Judge MR CONSTANTINE Well could we approach Your Honor THE COURT Counsel ~ THE FOLLOWING PROCEEDINGS WERE HAD AT THE BENCH OUT OF THE HEARING OF THE JURY MR WALKER Judge I'm not ready to call it quits yet I think I can do more to authenticate this 146 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 THE COURT That's fine THE FOLLOWING PROCEEDINGS WERE HAD IN THE PRESENCE OF THE JURY THE COURT Let's take a break at this time Ladies and gentlemen go ahead and close your note pads up and step back to the jury deliberation room and relax for a few minutes THE FOLLOWING PROCEEDINGS WERE HAD OUT OF THE PRESENCE OF THE JURY THE COURT Record reflect jurors have left the courtroom Mr. Grimmie you can step down again take a break relax Record reflect Mr. Grimmie has left the courtroom Why don't we take a fifteen minute break MR CONSTANTINE I just -- I had initially asked to approach because I made an objection Mr. Walker was given an opportunity Your Honor didn't rule on the objection Mr. Walker indicated that he wanted to ask some more questions the court allowed him to do that He asked some more questions I lodged another objection the court didn't rule Mr. Walker said 147 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 I want to ask some more questions The court was intend -- I would presume intending on allowing Mr. Walker to do that and I think that Your Honor can cut really to the quick because authentication and hearsay are two objections that we are familiar with and unless this gentleman was the custodian of records and can testify as to the authenticity of the document then I don't see how it is that Mr. Walker can get the document authenticated through this gentleman who apparently worked in personnel and production So I guess I would like a ruling from the court on my objections to 513 and 516 MR WALKER Judge I don't think counsel has that standing to say that he determines when I am done authenticating it I have indicated I think I can do more to authenticate it and boy my clients join with Mr. Constantine in this constant struggle against these forged documents That is probably the only thing we have in common but the man must have a history to know a forgery when he sees it and he's seen one and therefore we are trying to help him stamp out this admission of forged documents and we are going to try to do 148 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 more to authenticate 513 and 516. Or is his position that he as the opponent of the party introducing a document chooses when to cut off the evidence of authenticity He does happen to be wrong on that point MR CONSTANTINE Judge just let me respond since this is my motion Mr. Walker just uttered some words about forgeries and all that I just for the life of me I don't know what he's talking about and I don't know if anybody else does either But we are talking about ~-- THE COURT Well what does authentication mean in your vocabulary MR CONSTANTINE Well Your Honor authentication to authenticate a document usually you have to either -~- most of the times in most cases counsel just say here are my documents here are your documents we put them in in this search for the truth we just put our documents in and they argue their position and we argue our position Now the truth to some degree is regulated by that which the court admits and one of the hurdles an attorney must pass is authenticity which I'm struggling with on my 149 om 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 documents in the 600 series Now this document 513 wasn't authored by the gentleman on the witness stand doesn't seem to have been received by him he wasn't -- hasn't testified that he was the custodian of records in 1950 or at any other time and the same is true for 516. So my objection is that they cannot be authenticated through this witness and they are hearsay as to Corning THE COURT That may be right I don't know But the attorney has an opportunity to attempt to authenticate it Give him a reasonable opportunity if he can't he can't Let's take a fifteen minute recess A RECESS WAS TAKEN THE COURT Record reflect all parties have returned following the recess MR PETERS Since these documents are going to obviously be admitted against OI since they have no objection and I have no objection to the authenticity of the document -- THE COURT Which one 513 and 516 MR PETERS 513 and 516 since I am not a conspirator I would object to them as 150 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 conspiracy as to the railroad THE COURT Are they offered against the railroad MR WALKER They were but I can't think of an exception to overcome his hearsay objection THE COURT His objection will be allowed Mr. O'Hara do you have something MR O'HARA I was just going to give you a stack of documents that we were going to offer because you may find some of the documents that Mr. Walker is talking about now are going to be in this pile THE COURT All right thank you Ready for the jury MR WYLDER We are THE COURT Do we know how much longer Mr. Walker it's going to take MR WALKER About twenty minutes THE FOLLOWING PROCEEDINGS WERE HAD IN THE PRESENCE OF THE JURY THE COURT All right you may be seated Record reflect ladies and gentlemen of the jury have returned to the courtroom Mr. Walker you may examine 151 Q Mr. Grimmie do you recognize Illinois exhibit 515 as being a letter on Illinois stationery A I recognize the stationery yes sir Q And do you recognize the signature there pene! at the bottom as that of Bill Hazard A Well the only way I would recognize it as Bill Hazard is I see W.C. Hazard here MR WALKER Offer Illinois 515 10 A Yes defendant's exhibit 515 -- MR WALKER Just wait a minute the Judge 11 12 has got to go know -- 13 MR O'HARA Your Honor no objection 14 MR CONSTANTINE Hearsay authentication as 15 to Corning 16 MR PETERS Same objection as 515 and 516 17 18 19 20 21 Your Honor THE COURT Are you done with your offer MR WALKER No I would ask the court to take judicial notice of Illinois 419 which is in evidence and compare the signature with that 22 on 515 THE COURT All right Objection will be 23 24 overruled as to Corning Fiberglas and 152 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 objection sustained as to Illinois Central Railroad MR CONSTANTINE As to which exhibit Your Honor THE COURT 515 MR CONSTANTINE Your Honor is taking judicial notice is that -- MR WALKER I offer Illinois 516 into evidence which is a letter dated August 7th 1951 THE COURT The objection of Corning -- Illinois is not objecting MR O'HARA Right Your Honor THE COURT Corning objection is sustained Illinois Central MR PETERS Yeah my objection has already been sustained Your Honor MR WALKER Could I have the Corning objection again Your Honor THE COURT Authenticity and hearsay MR WALKER May I approach THE COURT You may THE FOLLOWING PROCEEDINGS WERE HAD AT THE BENCH OUT OF THE HEARING OF THE JURY MR WALKER Plaintiffs response to the 153 hearsay objection is that it is a statement by a conspirator in furtherance of the conspiracy and as to --~ THE COURT Are there specific sentences that you suggest are statements MR WALKER Well the best sentence in it is the last one In view of the fact that we are not certain just what atmospheric concentrations of asbestos fibers is the limit of safety -- and as 10 to authenticity it is the letter written in 11 response to 515. 515 just came into evidence 12 THE COURT All right go ahead 13 MR CONSTANTINE Your Honor I want to set } 14 the record straight on my objection as to asking 15 the court to take judicial notice of a signature 16 judicial notice to comparing signatures the 17 expertise is that of a handwriting expert And 18 when the court is asked to take judicial notice of 19 a matter those matters generally are so common to 20 the public and there are rules relating to what 21 the court is permitted to take judicial notice of 22 I'm not aware of a rule that allows the court to 23 take judicial notice of handwriting and make a 24 fact determination that the handwriting is the 154 same So I object to 516 on the basis of the court's ruling -- I'm sorry 515 if the basis was it appears to be that Your Honor compared the handwriting and made a factual determination that the two are the same I object to those grounds As for 516 the fact that it was sent in response or sent back that doesn't meet the authenticity rule This gentleman is not the custodian of records 10 I have been compelled to bring show some 11 proof by virtue of the custodian of records to 12 authenticate documents This man was not the 13 custodian of records Didn't write the letter 14 didn't send it the letter is unsigned and I don't 15 think the fact that Mr. Walker testifies that it's 16 in response to another or -- that that makes it 17 authentic That simply is not the requirement 18 So I object on those grounds and I would -- just 19 let me it's my understanding that the court ruled 20 and sustained Corning's objection Now we 21 are hearing Mr. Walker argue for Your Honor to 22 reverse that ruling I object to that as well 23 MR WALKER As to Corning's motion to 24 reconsider your ruling on 515 it's not by rule in 155 wean Illinois it's by statute The statute provides 1 the authority for the court to make the comparison of signatures As to 516 there is decisional law that says a letter appears on its face to be authentic and is clearly in response to another letter that is already properly into evidence can come into evidence for that reason That is why we would ask you to consider 516 authentic THE COURT The problem is with 516 is there 10 is no evidence that it was received to my 11 knowledge or that it was sent 12 MR WALKER Well since this is a carbon 13 copy I would agree with the court But there is 14 at least a presumption they wouldn't type a letter 15 without sending it I admit it doesn't say 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 received on it THE COURT Well it doesn't say received and there is no other indicia of receipt like the Bates stamp that I'm aware of It certainly --- I mean I think it's clear at this point that the court has admitted documents that were in possession of Illinois at that plant or were transferred to Corning MR CONSTANTINE That is not clear to me 156 What are you basing that on Judge That is just a fact that's been -- you excluded the testimony of Willis Hazard which is the only person in the world that can speak to that transfer THE COURT I don't believe that is true MR CONSTANTINE Is there something else that the court is basing that finding of fact on THE COURT There is a contract in evidence which indicates that if I recall correctly 10 MR WALKER It's counsel's comments that 11 Corning doesn't keep its contracts Judge 12 that is what he was basing it on 13 MR CONSTANTINE Mr. Walker is probably 14 right He likes to make those little comments and 15 I suspect that it burdens the record but that is 16 fine The fact of the matter is Judge without 17 proof of receipt -- 18 THE COURT All right at this point I'm not 19 going to admit Illinois 516 against OCF I 20 will against Illinois but not against OCF 21 or Illinois Central 22 MR CONSTANTINE Will Your Honor indicate 23 that to the jury 24 THE COURT Yeah 157 THE FOLLOWING PROCEEDINGS WERE HAD IN THE PRESENCE OF THE JURY THE COURT I believe I indicated that Illinois exhibit 516 is admitted only with regard to Illinois BY MR WALKER Q Mr. Grimmie there is in evidence a + document called Illinois 516 which as letter from Thomas Durkan to Bill Hazard dated August 10 7th 1951 and it says in view of the fact that 11 we are not certain just what atmospheric 12 concentration of asbestos fibers is the limit of 13 safety it would be well to apply -- and the 14 sentence goes on 15 In 1951 what had you been told by 16 Illinois was a level of airborne asbestos in 17 18 19 20 21 which people could work safely MR O'HARA Your Honor I would just object that we shouldn't read half sentences We should at least finish off the sentence THE COURT Sustained Let's read the whole 22 sentence 23 MR WALKER Sure 24 Q In letter written by Thomas Durkan to 158  10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 Bill Hazard on August 7th 1951 Mr. Durkan says Nevertheless in view of the fact that we are not certain just what atmospheric concentration of asbestos fibers is the limit of safety it would be well to apply the protective measures suggested in the report including the wearing of a respirator and if possible some method of reducing the amount of atmospheric dust My question to you Mr. Grimmie is in August of 1951 what had Illinois told you was the safe level of airborne asbestos in which people could work without becoming ill A have no recollection of that sir Q Did Illinois tell you that there was a -- an amount above zero of airborne asbestos in which people could work and none of them become ill A I have no recollection Q Do you have in front of you Illinois exhibit 419 A Yes sir Q Now this is already in evidence It says it is a letter from Hazard to Arthur Vorwald at Saranac Dear Art Some time ago we mentioned 159 to you that our Kaylo division wants to gather together in brochure form material on the health Sal aspects of Kaylo dust and wants to consider the possibility of publishing some of your | experimental findings Do you see that first paragraph there A Yes sir Q Now did you ever see a brochure that the Kaylo division of Illinois prepared 10 regarding the health aspects of Kaylo dust 11 A I have no recollection 12 Q Do you have a present recollection that 13 you ever saw a brochure on the health aspects of 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 Kaylo dust A No I don't Q And you worked in Kaylo dust from 1947 to at least 1972 Kaylo dust that had ~- let me ask a different question You worked in the dust of containing Kaylo from at least 1947 into 1972. Is that correct 21 A Yes approximately 22 MR WALKER Someone else may ask 23 THE COURT Mr. Constantine do you have any 24 questions 160 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 CROSS EXAMINATION BY MR CONSTANTINE Q Good afternoon Mr. Grimmie A Good afternoon sir Q Mr. Grimmie my name is Andrew Constantine I represent Corning Fiberglas A How do you do Q How do you do Have we ever met before today A Not to my knowledge Q And have I ever asked you to come into a courtroom and testify as you're doing here today A No sir Q Okay And the questions I'm about to ask do you have any idea what they are A No sir Q You testified on direct examination or in response to Mr. O'Hara's questions that when you came to work for Illinois as an hourly employee you sat down with a nurse and a nurse explained to you the necessity of using a respirator for the diseases silicosis and asbestosis Do you recall that A Yes sir 161 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 MR WALKER Leading MR CONSTANTINE This is cross Judge THE COURT Overruled Q Now were you the only hourly employee that had to sit down with that nurse or did other hourly employees have to sit down A No everyone that was hired went through the same procedure Q Every single person that was hired by Illinois as far as you know had to sit down with that nurse and get that training is that -- A Yes sir that is my understanding Q Now when Illinois -- after Illinois sold the plant and the product line to Corning you stayed on and became an employee of Corning Correct A Yes sir Q Now the day that that happened in 1958 all those people that had worked for Illinois did Corning fire them or did they become Corning employees too A They became Corning employees e Okay And I think you mentioned that in 1965 one of the plant supervisors over his 162 signature put one of Dr. Selikoff's articles on the bulletin board or on all five bulletin boards at the Berlin plant Correct A I believe so yes Q And if that happened in 1965 that would have occurred during a time period that you were working for Corning Correct A Yes Q And then I ~~ now after people sat down 10 with the nurse and was told about wearing a 11 respirator for silicosis and asbestosis did you 12 ever see any of those workers after being told 13 that not wearing respirators 14 A Yes sir 15 Q This doctor -- then I think you said Dr. 16 McNally talked about asbestos and asbestosis with 17 you 18 A Yes 19 Q Another --- there were meetings with 20 department heads LLI 21 A Yes LLI 22 Q Do you recall that Was asbestos and 23 asbestosis ever discussed at those meetings 24 A Yes the plant manager had meetings 163 Q When you were working for Illinois asbestos or Corning Fiberglas was and . asbestosis a secret A Never Q Well if somebody were to suggest that Corning and Illinois were conspiring to keep from people like you who worked in the Ltased plant information about asbestos and asbestosis what would you say to that 10 11 A I would say that was ridiculous rea Q This Dr. Sokolowski HD and you were there 12 since what time with Illinois I'm sorry 13 you started with OI when 14 A With OI 15 Q In the forties 16 In '47 17 Q And you were with Corning until the 18 day you retired 19 A Yes sir 20 Q In what '84 it was I think 21 A 184 22 0 Okay Now this Dr. Sokolowski was that a 23 doctor that just management people went to or did 24 everybody go to 164 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 A Everyone Q So there wasn't some special doctor that management went to and the other people that worked hard in the plant just like you they went to some other doctor It wasn't like that correct A Everyone on workers comp with asbestosis goes to Dr. Sokolowski We even have one guy comes up from Florida to go to Dr. Sokolowski MR CONSTANTINE Thank you Mr. Grimmie THE WITNESS Yes sir THE COURT Illinois Central MR PETERS No questions Your Honor THE COURT Illinois Mr. O'Hara REDIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR O'HARA Q Hello Mr. Grimmie I think you testified a little bit earlier today about the fact that you spent some time at Illinois as an hourly employee A Yes sir Q Do you remember about how many years you spent at Illinois as an hourly employee A Um I would say about four 165 ual Q You gave some testimony about physical ae examinations you had at the University of Pennsylvania Do you remember that A Yes Q Were those -- A That is University of Pennsylvania Medical Center Q Were those examinations during the time you were with Illinois or were they at the 10 time when you were with Corning Fiberglas 11 A I believe they were Corning 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 Fiberglas Q Mr. Walker asked you some questions about whether there was any warning on the Kaylo boxes when you were at Illinois Did Bill Hazard ever tell you that he thought that Kaylo was dangerous for people who were going to use it in the field A Not to my recollection Q Mr. Walker showed you a document which was plaintiffs exhibit 282. Do you think you could find that Mr. Grimmie Do you still have that one I think that was the longer one A Yes I have it 166 Q Can you turn to the last page of that document the page that has the signature Can you find that A Recommendations Q Is that the -- MR O'HARA Your Honor may I go next to the witness please THE COURT You may 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 A I'm sorry Q Do you see Mr. Grimmie that there is a reference in that document do you see in the second sentence to the fact that the Aetna people found some things that did not come up to Illinois standards Do you see that The second sentence on that page A Yes I see that Q Okay Did Illinois when you were at Illinois did they have standards that related to dust control and to respirator programs and to monitoring employee health A Yes Q Mr. Walker asked you whether -- whether you learned today for the first time that the Saranac experiments involved animals that 167 developed asbestosis Correct - A Yes sir Q Did you learn on the first day of work at Illinois from the plant nurse that the Kaylo dust might cause asbestosis in people A Asbestosis was I thought I interpreted at the time to be secondary to silicosis Q Okay A And then shortly after that asbestosis 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 became -~ Q Separate A Yeah it became the big problem Q So -- but in any event based on your conversations with the plant nurse you understood that there was risks of asbestosis from the Kaylo dust that was being used A Yes MR WALKER Leading THE COURT Sustained Q Did you have any notion about whether Kaylo dust used in the Illinois plants created a potential hazard for people based on your conversations with the plant nurse A Yes 168 Q You talked ~- you mentioned in one of your responses to Mr. Walker about the notion of trust Did you trust Bill Hazard with your health when you worked at Illinois A Absolutely Q If he were alive today would you trust him with your health A Absolutely MR O'HARA Absolutely 10 THE COURT Plaintiff 11 RECROSS EXAMINATION 12 BY MR WALKER 13 Q About four weeks ago Mr. Grimmie 14 Illinois told the jury that Bill Hazard went 15 to Saranac Lake in 1952 and heard a whole bunch of 16 speeches about asbestos being a cause of cancer 17 Now we know only thing that Illinois would .18 tell the jury -- excuse me that Illinois 19 would tell the jury is the truth L 20 What did Bill Hazard tell you when he got L 21 back from Saranac Lake that he had learned about 22 asbestos beinga cause of cancer in 1952 23 A Sir -- 24 MR O'HARA Your Honor wait I have an 169 ame objection I don't know to what Mr. Walker is referring but I have never said anything like that in front of this jury MR WALKER I did misspeak I said -- I Corning said it in opening statement MR CONSTANTINE Oh well then I heard Illinois so I guess I have an objection MR WALKER Let me ask the question again 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 please I butchered it MR CONSTANTINE Can we have that stricken from the record then Mr. Walker's -- THE COURT Question is stricken from the record jury instructed to disregard the question Q In opening statement Illinois -- in opening statement Corning said in 1952 as well you heard about the Seventh Saranac Symposium you heard about how one of the principle subjects was -- discussed was asbestos and cancer Let me give you the lineup of the people that were there because a suggestion has been made that information about asbestos and disease and asbestos and cancer was suppressed or misrepresented Well one of the main topics at this particular symposium was asbestos and cancer 170 When Bill Hazard got back from that 1972 symposium at Saranac Lake where asbestos and cancer was discussed -- THE COURT 172 MR WALKER Did I say 72 I'm sorry Q When Bill Hazard got back from that 1952 symposium at Saranac Lake where asbestos and cancer was discussed what did he tell you he learned at that symposium 10 MR O'HARA Your Honor I object to Mr. 11 Wylder's sic question 12 THE COURT Overruled 13 A Sir please understand Bill Hazard was 14 Toledo staff He would contact the plant manager 15 He wouldn't come to me to tell me anything He 16 would go to the plant manager Any report that he 17 had would go to the plant manager So I have no 18 recollection of what was reported from this 19 1952 -~ 20 Q Well Bill Hazard never talked to you about L 21 asbestos and cancer Is that correct LLL 22 23 A Oh Bill and I had discussions yes Q Did you and Bill discuss the relationship 24 between asbestos and cancer 171 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 A Um after 1965 when Dr. Selikoff I believe it was at Mount Sinai who proved to the medical profession that asbestos could cause lung cancer then we started talking and acting on it Q But the first time that Bill Hazard talked to you about asbestos being a cause of cancer was after you had seen Selikoff's article in 1965 Correct A To the best of my recollection MR WALKER Offer plaintiffs exhibit 520 And 519 THE COURT Any objection to 519 and 520 MR CONSTANTINE Hearsay and authentication as to Corning Your Honor THE COURT Illinois MR O'HARA Your Honor I have no objection to 519. I do object to 520 as hearsay MR WALKER Well Judge once you have 519 in 520 comes in because 519 shows that Hazard was there The sixth sheet of paper The eighth signature from the bottom THE COURT The objection of Illinois to 520 is overruled Illinois -- both 519 and 520 will be admitted with regard to 172 { L L Illinois Do you want to speak to Corning I will overrule those objections with regard to Illinois MR CONSTANTINE I'm sorry did Your Honor rule THE COURT I have not Asked Mr. Walker if he had any response to hearsay and authentication with regards to Corning 10 MR WALKER If it is authentic Your Honor -- 11 THE COURT Counsel approach the bench 12 THE FOLLOWING PROCEEDINGS WERE HAD AT THE 13 BENCH OUT OF THE HEARING OF THE JURY 14 MR WALKER If it's authentic it has to 15 come in because Corning talked about it in 16 opening statement It was Corning who said 17 that this conference did take place and that 18 everybody knew as a result of this conference 19 Here is the agenda for the conference that took 20 place so this would be notice to Corning 21 They have admitted whatever notice is created by 22 this 23 MR CONSTANTINE I don't know how an opening 24 statement I wish my opening statements could 173 authenticate documents because if they could I would line all the ones up that Mr. Walker has erroneously objected to -- THE COURT It might against you but it won't help you MR CONSTANTINE An opening statement by a lawyer doesn't authenticate documents in any state that I'm aware of and I don't think it authenticates them here and I object on that 10 basis as to hearsay authentication 11 MR WALKER I was just talking about hearsay 12 Judge If there is an objection about a, 13 authentication I will have to take the stand 14 myself because we got this document from 15 Corning 16 MR CONSTANTINE That doesn't authenticate 17 anything Mr. Walker can get on the stand and say I 18 he got letters from Abex and Corning 19 Unless he's the custodian of the records over at 20 Saranac he can't testify as to authenticity and I 21 object 22 MR WALKER All we are doing now is hearsay 23 When Corning says in opening statement that 24 there was this symposium asbestos and cancer was 174 discussed it makes what is discussed their knowledge to Corning and therefore all of this other is made out of court it's admissible against Corning because it shows what Corning knows THE COURT The court will sustain the objection with regard to Corning THE FOLLOWING PROCEEDINGS WERE HAD IN THE PRESENCE OF THE JURY 10 THE COURT The court will sustain the LLLI 11 objections with regard to Corning 12 BY MR WALKER 13 Q Would you turn Mr. Grimmie to the eighth 14 page the one that has the agenda for Wednesday 15 September 24th 16 A Yes sir Wednesday September 24th 17 Q When you had that discussion with Bill 18 Hazard in 1965 about the relationship between 19 asbestos and cancer did he reflect upon the fact 20 that he had heard Dr. Hueper discuss on this 21 subject back in 1952 22 A I have no recollection 23 Q Did he discuss that he heard Dr. Cartier 24 reflect -- did he reflect that he had heard Dr. 175 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 Cartier discuss this subject back in 1952 A I have no recollection Q Did he say well I heard Dr. Kenneth Lynch talk about this in September of 1952 at the Seventh Saranac Symposium A I have no recollection As I suggested to you Bill Hazard was Toledo staff and he would tell our plant manager Q And when you had this discussion with Mr. Hazard in 1965 did he say I heard from -- of all people Dr. Merewether himself back in 1952 at the Seventh Saranac Symposium lead the discussion following the Hueper Cartier and Lynch presentations A I have no recollection of that Q The jury has seen exhibit 65 in which Saranac Laboratory told Corning in February of 1956 that asbestos was fairly well incriminated as a carcinogen Did Corning tell you that as soon as it bought the plant in 1958 that asbestos had been incriminated as a carcinogen A Corning, Q Yes sir 176 A I don't know how it was related but -- I don't know how to answer that Corning was related to our plant long before 1958 Q But it became your employer in 1958 Correct A Yes Q I can appreciate there was some Corning people that visited the plant between '53 and '58 probably correct 10 A Management 11 Q But once Corning bought the plant 12 and assumed the responsibilities that it had as 13 your employer did it promptly come up to you and 14 say Mr. Grimmie I want you to know that as long 15 ago as two years ago we were told that asbestos 16 has been fairly well incriminated as a carcinogen 17 A I have no recollection of that 18 Q You said that Dr. Sokolowski gives these 19 examinations to everyone that has asbestosis How 20 many fellows that worked at the Berlin plant are 21 alive today and have asbestosis 22 A I don't know 23 Q Has the doctor ever shared with you how 24 many people there are 177 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 A He would not do that that is doctor | patient privilege Q How many are sick is privileged A I meet two or three occasionally when I am in there but I haven't the slightest idea how many Q How about Corning Has Corning told you how many are currently living and have asbestosis A No. Q Has Corning told you how many of the group of people that worked for Illinois and Corning at Berlin have contracted lung cancer A No. Q Has Corning told you how many of the people who worked at Berlin for either Illinois or Corning have contracted mesothelioma A No sir MR WALKER Thank you Mr. Grimmie THE WITNESS Thank you sir THE COURT Mr. Constantine MR CONSTANTINE I have no questions Thank 178 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 you Mr. Grimmie MR PETERS None THE COURT Mr. Peters MR O'HARA No Your Honor THE COURT All right Mr. Grimmie thank you You can step down Thank you for your time today Have a nice day WITNESS EXCUSED) 179 IN THE CIRCUIT COURT OF THE ELEVENTH JUDICIAL CIRCUIT MC LEAN COUNTY ILLINOIS I Susan E. Geshwilm an Official Court Reporter and Certified Shorthand Reporter in and for the Eleventh Judicial Circuit of the State of Illinois do hereby certify that I reported in 10 shorthand the foregoing proceedings and that the 11 foregoing is a true and correct transcript of my 12 shorthand notes so taken as aforesaid 13 Dated November November November 30 , 1996 14 15 Susan E. Geshwilm CSR 16 License 084-002578 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24