Document nxeBKGaZJeQeyJpX8r9kg4pm

FILE NAME: Union Carbide (UC) DATE: 1989 Mar 15 DOC#: UC065 DOCUMENT DESCRIPTION: Legal - Deposition of Dernehl Vol 2 with Cover Letter APPEARANCES: MICHAEL S. POLK, ESQUIRE, of the Law Firm of HERTOGS, FLUEGEL, 3IEBEN, POLK, JONES & LaVERDIERE, 999 Wsstview Drive, Hastings, Minnesota 55033, appeared for and on behalf of Plaintiff. ROBERT.D. BROWHSON, ESQUIRE, of the Law Firm of 3TICH, ANGELL, KREIDLER & MUTH, Suite 120, The Crossings, 250 Second Avenue South, Minneapolis, Minnesota 55401, appeared for and on behalf of Defendant Conwed Corporation. BRUCE JONES, ESQUIRE, of the Law Firm of FAEGRE & BENSON, 2200 Norwest Center, 90 South Seventh Street, Minneapolis, Minnesota 55402-39001, appeared for and on behalf of Defendants Armstrong World Industries (Delaware), Inc., GAF Corporation, Keene Corporation, National Gypsum Company, Owens-Corning Fiberglas Corporation, Owens-Illinois, Inc., Turner & Newall PLC, Union Carbide Corporation and United States Gypsum Company. WILLIAM D. HARVARD, ESQUIRE, of the Law Firm of BLASINGAME, BURCH, GARRARD & BRYANT, PC, 440 College Avenue North, P.O. Box 332, Athens, Georgia 30603, appeared for and on behalf of Defendant Union Carbide Corporation and members of CCR. .ANTHONY J. LAURA, ESQUIRE, of the Law Firm of KELLEY, DRYE & WARREN, 175 South Street, Morristown, New Jersey 07960, appeared for and on behalf of Defendant Union Ca rbide Corporation. GREGORY TROST, ESQUIRE, of the Law Firm of MILLER & JNEARY, Suite 506, Park National Bank 3uilding, 5353 Wayzata Boulevard, Minneapolis, Minnesota 55416, appeared for and on behalf of Defendant A. W. Chesterton Company. ROBERT E. DIEHL, ESQUIRE, of the Law Firm of MEAGHER, GEER, MARKHAM, ANDERSON, ADAMSON, FLASXAM? & BRENNAN, 4200 Multi foods Tower, 33 South South Sixth Street, Minneapolis, Minnesota 55402, appeared for end on behalf of Defendant A.H. Bennett Company. LISA R. MICALLEF, ESQUIRE, of the Law Firm of GILSDORF and JAC0B3ERGER, 1150 Capiital Centre Plaza, 186 North Wabasha, Saint Paul, Minnesota 55102, appeared for and on behalf of Defendant W. R. Grace & Company. KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES . (6121 355-1955 IR. IARVARD: This is a continuation of ths coposition of Dr. Curl Dernehl which was begun on March 10# 1939. i an 3ill Harvard and with me is Anthony Laura, iie are hers representing Union Carbide. Dr. Dernehl is also .present. Vie are in Springfield, Missouri and also present for W. R. Grace is -- MR. BISHOP: Gary E. Bishop. MR. HARVARD: And we are in Springfield, Missouri, on telephone hookup. Dr. Dernehl, you were previously sworn in on March 10, 1989 last week when your deposition was initiated. still under oath? Do you understand that you are THS WITNESS: Yes, I do. MR. HARVARD: Do you understand that you are to tell the truth in your statements? THE WITNESS: Yes, I do. MR. HARVARD: You understand this is a continuation of that deposition, is that right? THE WITNESS: Y e s / I do. I1R. HARVARD: Does anyone have any statements they need to place on the record or things they want to get out of the way before I go through what questions I have with the Doctor? MR. 3R0WNS0N: Well, this is Bob Brownson.- Just for the record, I want to say that even KJRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES . ' k V* *- . / ^ n M t A M A A f P ` a. 1 though you are conducting direct examination here-today we 2 ara not going to feel that that precludes us from calling 3 Dr. Dernehl as a witness at trial in this case as we may be 4 entitled to under the rules. 5 MR. JONES: That's understood. o MR. HARVARD: Anyone else have any 7 statements they want to make for the record before I get 8 under way? * 9 MR. POLK: This is Mike Polk 10 representing the Plaintiff. I have a question. My ' 11 question is whether or not you intend on using any of the 12 marked documents during your direct examination? 13 MR. HARVARD: I am not sure what you 14 mean by marked documents. There are three documents i o t ' 15 intend to show to the Doctor during the course of the 16 examination and copies of them are present with Bruce Jones 17 who asked to have them there because he thought everybody 18 else was going to be at a that location. Those three, is 19 everyone there where Bruce' is other t*han those who are here 20 with me? ' 21 MR. JONES: No. 22 (At this time a discussion was held off 23 the record.) 24 MR. HARVARD: Do you have a place where 25 documents can be faxed to you? * KIRBY A . KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES (612) 922-1955 t 1 MR. POLK: Yes, I do. 2 MR* HARVARD: Bruce, do you have the J capacity to fax those three documents to him? , 4 MR. JOKES: Vie have indeed. 5 MR. HARVARD: Will you please do that7 6 MR. JONES: I will do that. 7 MR. POLK: Hang on. ' ' 4 3 MR. HARVARD: I have a number of 9 questions, Mike, that I can ask if we can perhaps save some 10 tine if I go on and get the questions out of the way that 11 don't make reference to those documents and when you have 12 received the documents you can let us know if you want to 13 take a break to have an opportunity to review them. 14 MR. POLK: That's fine with me, if Bruce 15 is comfortable going out and faxing them down to me right IS now. I will give him the number. She is coning in right 17 now. 13 MR. HARVARD: I an happy to do what you 19 all want. If you all want to get them before we start, we 20 will do that. 21 MR. POLK* T h a t 's not necessary. Sill. 22 If you don't mind why I don't I just interrupt you while I 23 get the number here. Here she is. Fax number, Bruce, is 24 612-437-2732. . . 25 . . MR. JONES: I will get those down to you * KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES (612) 922-1955 J<r: 1 directly. 2 MR. POLK: Thank you. Go ahead. 3 MR. HARVARD: Anthony made a suggestion 4 tnat I tnink is good. After I ask each question we will 5 pause briefly before I indicate to the Doctor to answer so 6 if anyone has objections to the question they can 7 place then on the record at that tine because otherwise it S might be confusing with everybody talking on the phone.* Is 9 that acceptable to everyone? 10 11 DIRECT EXAMINATION ' 12 BY MR. HARVARD: 13 C. Doctor, at the deposition last week you were 14 asked a number of questions about your background with 4 * 15 Union Carbide, is that right? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. You were born on August 13, 1913, which makes 13 you now 75 years old, correct? 19 A. Yes. ' 20 Q. Doctor, what year did you begin with Union 21 Carbide? , 22 A. 1947. 23 Q. I want to very briefly cover again what your / 24 positions were with Union Carbide for purposes of this 25 portion of the deposition. When you began with Union KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES ' 1612 > * - ! * ? ? Carbide you wera tv, ,. y *' *J''aiwal director of Union Carbide's Texes C.ty chemical.plant, correct? A. That's right. 4 In 1955 you moved into a position as assistant 5 medical director with respect to their chemical plant and then moved to New York, is that correct? A. That's correct. 3- Then in 1963 you became director of toxicology 9 for that company, finally in 1965 becoming associate 10 corporate medical director, is that correct? 11 A. That's correct. 12 a. And your background in terms ofyour medical 13 training had bacn in the area of occupationalmedicine, 14 right? 15 A. That's right. 15 Q. You do not claim today to be an expert on such 17 issues as asbestos fiber types, epidemiology or the IS ideology of asbestos disease, do you? 19 MR. POLK: I w i n 'object to the form of 20 the question as being leading. This is like Polk making 21 that objection. 22 MR. 3R0WNS0J: I also object to the 23 question as multiple. 24 3Y MR. HAVARD: . . ... 25 Q*. Doctor, tell us whether or not you claim to be KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES (612) 922-1955 + 1 an expert on asbestos fiber types? 2 A. to, I do not. 4 5 6 7 3 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 13 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q. Doctor, please tell us whether or not you claim to be an expert today on epidemiology? A. No, I do not. Q. Doctor, please tell us today whether or not you claim to be an expert on the subject of the ideology of asbestos diseases? * A. I wouldn't say that I am an expert but I have the knowledge that would be expected of any individual who is board certified in occupational medicine. ' Q. Doctor, would you tell us whether or not to some degree all of those subjects that I just questioned you about were in fact involved in your studies and in your work of occupational medicine? ' A. Yes, they were. Q. Doctor, when you worked for Union Carbide Corporation, approximately how many marketable chemicals fell under your responsibility when you were assistant or director of toxicology, assistant medical director and associate corporata medical director? A. Somewhere in excess of 700. Q. At what point in time, if you recall, did Union Carbide Corporation begin issuing toxicological or toxicology reports to their customers? 7 _________________________ ' J "* : . KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES '' (612) 922-1955 ^ vi. * .t : ~ ' ' 1 A. In 1956. -a* On Which of the marketable chemicals for which 3 you were responsible were such reports typically issued' 4 A. Initially they were issued on large volume 5 chemicals that were sold in tonnage lots and subsequently S that was expanded to cover the great majority of chemicals 7 that Union Carbide sold. a Q. When Union Carbide prepared toxicology reports 9 on their marketable chemicals to whom, if you know, were 10 these reports distributed? 11 A. They were distributed to anybody that asked 12 for them. They were distributed to various governmental 13 agencies in the United States as well as overseas. They 14 were -- essentially that's it. t 15 Q* With respect to these toxicology reports, 16 Doctor, which part of the Union Carbide Corporation or 17 which division of Union Carbide Corporation was typically 13 the group that you would expect to distribute those reports 19 if there was such a group? . 20 A. Initially the concept was that these were to 21 be in the hands of sales people who would distribute the 22 reports to customers at the time of the sales visit. Due 23 to certain problems in keeping the supply updated and in 24 sales offices, it was eventually set up that they were 25 distributed from our office to whoever the sales people . > KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES v ' - (612) 922-1955 . 1 asked us to send them to or to any customer who voluntarily 2 wrote to us and requested a copy. 3 Q. Doctor, once a toxicology report had been 4 prepared on a particular chemical marketed by Union Carbide 5 Corporation, did it always remain in that form as initially 6 drafted and submitted? 7 A. No, it did not. There were revisions that 3 were made as new knowledge came to hand. 9 Q. As medical or as assistant medical director 10 ^or Union Carbide, then director of toxicology, and then 11 associate corporate medical director, what efforts did you 12 make to keep up to date with medical scientific literature 13 on che chemicals that were being marketed by Union Carbide 14 Corporation? M 15 A. We received a number of' journals that are 16 published on occupational medicine, industrial hygiene and 17 on toxicology. Vie attended national meetings, symposia and 13 such to try to keep up to date. 19 Q. Were some of those discussed last week at the 20 deposition, some of the different publications which you 21 received and symposia attended by you and others in your 22 department? 23 A. Yes. . 24 Q. Were there others, do you believe, in addition 25 to those symposia, which members of the toxicology -- . ^ ' ' ~~ " KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES ~ '' . (612) 922-1955 ....... ...... '. i" ab`" Unin Carbid- .>ncrn,d with tcaioolesy ,, y also 2 have attended but which you do not now remember by name' 3 A. Thsre were probably a number of then that I 4 cannot now recall. i can recall that one that I did not 5 mention before /ere soma symposia on vinyl chloride that we 6 were vary much interested in. 7 Q. Doctor, I want to shift gears for a movement 8 now and talk to you about Calidria asbestos. Do you " 9 recognize tha name Calidria? 10 A. Yes, I do. 11 Q And what aoouc that name lo you recall, what 12 is it? 13 A. It was a trade name for a short fiber asbestos 14 mined by Union Carbide at King City and also processed at * 15 Xing City. 16 Q Is King City inCalifornia, Doctor? 17 A. Yes, it is. 18 Q. Was this area in which it was mined also 19 sometimes referred to as the Coalinga deposit? - 20 A. Yes, it is. 2.1 Q. Of what type fiber was theCalridia asbestos 22 from the Coalinga deposit? 23 A. It was a high purity short fiber chrysotile 24 type. . 25 Q. Is there there something about -- let me KIRBY A. KENNEDY S..ASSOCIATES (612) 922-1955 ' % ; 1 rephrase the question. You mentioned two qualities, among others, in your description, short fiber and high purity. 3 What considerations did the short fiber nature of the 4 Calidria. asbestos present from your perspective when Union 5 uarbiae began marketing that product, if you understand my 6 queston? 7 A. The great majority of asbestos mined and used 8 in the United States, as a matter of fact about 90 percent 9 of it, was a long fiber chrysotile type which has its 10 origin primarily from large mines in Canada but also from a 11 number of mines in the United States. The Coalings fiber 12 was unique because of the fact that it was a short fiber 13 type, which was relatively new at the time it was 14 introduced. 15 Q. Doctor, would you describe for us how you 16 would distinguish in your mind between a short fiber 17 chrysotile asbestos and a long fiber chrysotile asbestos in 18 terms of the length of those fibers? 19 A. Roughly speaking, when you speak of long fiber 20 asbestos you are talking about asbestos which has the very 21 great majority of its fibers greater than five microns in 22 length and a--g^sat-many of them more than ten microns in . ' ' 23 length. . 24 Q. Do you recall what the average length was of 25 the fibres found in the Coalinga deposit which Union W; KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES (612) 922-1955 Carbide was marks tiny? A- I do not recall.,,hat the average ,izj was tat I know -chat most of it was under five nicrons in length. Q- You mentioned a second consideration or a second quality that was unique about Calidria when you said high purity. Would you describe to us what you nean by 7 high purity? 3 A. The great majority of the long fiber asbestos 9 that was mined would contain foreign substances of various 10 types that tended to be hard to form solid particulates in 11 the asbestos mixture. The Calidria asbestos or the 12 Coalings asbestos, let me say, ,,as a deposit that you would 13 say would be almost pure asbestos which contained very very 14 small quantities of materials other than asbestos. 15 Q. Do you recall what type of impurities were 16 particularly associated with either Canadian chrysotile 17 asbestos or with chrysotile asbestos other than that found 13 in the Coalinga dsposit? 19 A. n o , I am sorry,I do n 't know that. 20 0. Doctor, at your previous deposition you wen t ' 21 through a number of questions and discussed at length what 22 you recall from different points in time about what was . ' 23 learned with respect to asbestos and what you knew about 24 potential health conditions arising from exposure to 25 asbestos over your career, is that right? ' KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES (612) 922-1955 * * 1 i believe that's correct. 2 Q `, 1 wanted-to ask you some questions new in that 3 same regard. From your earlier deposition or the earlier 4 part of this deposition do you recall telling us that when 5 you began with Union Carbide in 1947 you knew, because you 5 had learned in your medical school studies, that asbestos /4 could causa asbsstosis7 8 A. That's correct. 9 Q. Was that distinguished as to any particular 10 type fiber which could cause asbestosis? 11 A. At that time I don't believe that they were 12 talking in terms of types of a fiber. They were talking 13 generally asbestos as it was used in insulation activities 14 and in asbestos mining. 15 Q. Doctor, do you recall when it was you learned 16 of an association between asbestos generally and lung 17 cancer? 18 A. My recollection is it was in the late '60s. 19 Q. Doctor, do you recall or let me ask the 20 question differently. Please explain to us tvhat you mean 21 when you say an association between asbestos and lung 22 cancer and how-4-f-afc-all that may be different from a 23 causal relationship between asbestos and lung cancer? 24 A. Well, basically when we talk about an 25 association we are talking about a group of people who arc 1 ` ;\ KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES . v.?-" (612) 922-1955 1 r k i n s with , nmtorial and who have , ,, r t l n incidone. of 2 physical abnormalities or disease and the association suggests that this disease - the presence of this disease 4 nay be associated with the exposure at wor!:. This is 5 somewhat different iron a proved condition in which it is u nut o n i y t.iaw there is an association but you / Can eliminate other sources of causation of a disease and 3 you can demonstrate by animal experimentation that the 9 disease is in fact caused by exposure to the substance. 10 G. Doctor, at the point in time when you remember 11 having learned of an association between asbestos and lung 12 cancer, did you at that time believe that the disease 13 asbestosis would not develop in an individual who was 14 exposed to asbestos below the threshold limit value in his t 15 working lifetime? 15 A. That is correct. 17 Q. At the time you learned of an association 18 between asbestos and lung cancer did you learn that the 19 association was between exposure to asbestos and lung 20 cancer or was it exposure to asbestos in large enough doses 21 that would produce asbestosis? 22 A. -- At.the time that we first learned about this >. 23 there was -- it was believed that there had to be a c 24 atmospheric concentration sufficient to produce the disease 25 asbestosis before you could have any evidence of cancer. KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES (612) 922-1955 v % * V. 1 Q. Doctor, in that regard, do you recall 2 specifically in tne 1950s what the threshold linit value 3 was for asbestos exposure? A MR. POLKi I w i n object to the form of 5 the question as being vague. The 1960s covers a 10-year 6 period of tine. 7 8 3Y MR. HAVARD: MR. rfAVARD: I will reword the question. 9 Q. Doctor, do you recall at any tine in the 'SOs 10 what the threshold limit value may have been for asbestos 11 dust exposure? 12 A. There were several different levels which were 13 active during the period from about 1960 on up. Initially 14 my recollection is that there was a limit of ten fibers in 15 excess of ten microns in length per cubic foot of air. 16 This in the early '60s was reduced to five fibers per cubic 17 foot xn excess of ten microns in length. And in the late 'SOs 13 this was again reduced to two fibers per cubic foot in 19 excess of ten microns in length. 20 0. Doctor, are you certain about any of those 21 numbers? Are you confident in your own mind that those are 22 c o r r e c t ? ---------- - 23 MR. POLK: I will object to the form of 24 the question as being leading. 25 MR. BROWNSON: It's leading and also " .` i KIRBY A. KENNEDY & .ASSOCIATES ! ~ 7 V ' (612) 922-1955 1 'O 3 4 5 6 7 3 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 . 21 vague. -A3.. ?0LK: in that objeccion also. 3Y -1R . HARVARD i That's correct. I will join -J. Answer the question if you can, Doctor. if you can't, I will move on. A. Those figures are my best recollection. Q. In any avent, you do recall that at some point in time there were changes in those figures? A. Absolutely. Q. Doctor, with respect to the length of fiber that you recall being associated with the threshold limit value measurements, how does the Calidria asbestos fiber length match up with them? A. The Calridia fiber asbestos -- the Calridia fiber length was below the ten microns length of fiber specified in the threshold limit value. Q* Doctor, what if anything did that suggest to you about what the people'who set those threshold limit value standards considered about those shorter fiber asbestos? 22 MR*- POLKs Object to the question on the 23 grounds of hearsay and lacks foundation. ... 24 MR. BROWNSON: I further object to the 25 question on the ground that Mr. Harvard earlier in his KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES (612) 922-1955 1 direct examination attempted to disqualify Dr. Dernehl as 2 an expert in fiber type and, therefore, he is disqualified 3 from answering this question. 4 3Y MR. HAVARD: 5 Q. Answer if you can. Doctor. 6 A. To us, the fact that the fibers were less than 7 ten microns in length suggested thct they ere not going to 8 he particularly active in the reduction of fibrogenio 9 disease since he general opinion held at that time was 10 that the active fibers in producing the disease were those 11 ten microns and lower in length. 12 2. Doctor, when you say "to us," to whom were you 13 referring? ' 14 ... A * . To us 1 am ferring, I think, to the majority 15 of physicians in occupational medicine and to the people in 16 the medical department at Union Carbide. 17 Q. Doctor, at the time you first learned of an 18 association between asbestos and lung cancer through the 19 medical literature, were you-aware of any demonstrated 20 causal relationship between the short fibered Calidria 21 asbestos and lung cancer? 22 A. -- I- was not. 23 Q. Doctor, at the earlier portion of this 24 deposition you told us that in about 1967 you believe there 25 was growing evidence of an association between asbestos and KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES (61 21 <**; .w 7; 3 , 4 5 6 7 3 9 10 il 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 a medical condition called mesothelioma. that testimony? Do you recall A. Yes. Q. Can you recall -- let ne ask the question differently. At this point in time were you aware of an'' evidence demonstrating a causal relationship between the .short fiber Calidria asbestos and mesothelioma? A. I was not aware of any such relationship. C. I believe you further testified, Doctor, that it was in the early '70s when you began to seek epidemiological studies reflecting findings with respect to mesothelioma. Do you recall that testimony? . . A* .; Y33 - ' - ` - 2* J>o you recall whether the studies of which you became aware in the late `60s and early '70s primarily dealt with one particular fiber type as opposed to another fiber type? ; A. The great majority of studies that were done at that time were done 'with -- were done -on people who were exposed to the long fiber type asbestos which was in common use in the United States. Q* You were -aware of no causal relationship established between the short fiber Calidria asbestos and mesothelioma at that point in time, were you? -MR. POLKx Object to the form of the KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES OOO-I QX K. V '/:S'\ , ' - Ih- 1 j u g s tion as being lauding. 2i t'lR. BROWNSOLJ: I join in the objection. 3 4 BY I1R. HARVARD: MR. HARVARD: I will rephrase it. 5 Q. Doctor, in 1967 and in the 1970s when you 6 began seeing epidemiological studies, were you aware --- 7 MR. HAVARD: I am having trouble making 8 this one legal, guys. Give me a minute. 9 10 BY MR. HARVARD: MR. POLK: I understand that. 11 Q. Doctor, please tell us what your recollection 12 was from the period of time 1967 to the early 1970s as to 13 whether a causal relationship had been established between 14 short .fiber MCalidria asbestos and mesothelioma? ' 15 A. I knew of no evidence of any type that there 16 had been any work done with mesothelioma resulting from 17 exposure to short fiber asbestos. 18 Q. . Mere you aware of evidence which had begun to 19 demonstrate a relationship between other long fiber 20 asbestos and mesothelioma? 21 A. Any relationship that had been demonstrated 22 between mesothelioma and exposure to asbestos was with .long 23 fiber material. 24 Q. Doctor, are you familiar with ths fiber type 25 called crocidolite? ' " ~ : ' KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES ` (612) 922-1955 ", . . L ? * . * * * * * riot really. Q. amositi? A. Are you faniliar with the -fosr type called Not really. w. Doctor, do you have on opinion, based or. the nodical literature during that period of time. 1367 through 7 the early 1970s, as to whether any association had been 3 established between mesothelioma and any causative agents 9 other than asbestos, if you can answer the question? 10 A. In the period of time that you cover the 11 answer would be no. 12 2- DO you know if in your subsequent studies end 13 your subsequent - let me rephrase the question. Doctor'. 14 d yOU TM tly * " - -Pinion, based on what you learned 15 until the time you left as associate medical director at 16 Union Carbide, as to whether anything other than asbestos 17 causes mesothelioma? 13 A. There have been cases of mesothelioma reported 19 in individuals exposed to vinyl chloride. 20 Q. Are there also cases of mesothelioma that you 21 have seen m the medical or scientific literature where 22 there is noJcnoim-causative agent? 23 MR. POLK: I will object to the form of 24 th question as being loading and very suggestive. 25 MR. BR0WN30N: I join in that objection. ' KIR3Y A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES (612) 922-1955 % 1 3Y HARVARD: 2 2 Answer it if you can, Doctor 3 A. Tha early history of mesothelioma among -A pathologists was that it was a form of cancer of unknown 5 ideology and of rare occurrence. 5 w Doctor, are you aware of any epidemiological 7 data establishing a causal relationship between the short 3 fiber chrysotile such as Calidria and mesothelioma' 9 A. I have not seen any. 10 Q. Doctor, do we knew exactly how lung cancer is 11 caused? * 12 A. No, we do not. 13 Q. Do we know today, based on what you have 14 learned from the medical and scientific literature, exactly 15 how mesothelioma is caused? 16 17 18 , 19 20 A. !*7e do not know that either. Q. In the earlier portion of this deposition, Doctor, you were asked some questions with respect to chest x"r*ys which were taken at King City, California, of then Union Carbide employees. Do you recall being asked 21 questions in that regard? 22 A. Yos, T do r 23 Q. Vtould you explain to us for what purpose chest 24 .{-rays were taken of new employees coming to work for Union 25 Carbide at the King City facility where Calidria asbestos ' '' : KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES (612) 922-1955*; ; . , ^ > wcis ained and milled? 2 Unl0n C i r W W had a 9nrI policy that any 3 nSW e"Pl0yi><5 04 the " iss that was done in his pre-employment examination ,M a cheat x-ray in order to s t a m i n a that theta ,,an no- evidence of active lung l i a i M m this prospective employee. Subsequently, these x-rays "*r* reP" tea 40 " * *< that the work the individual ,,a, aoing did not produce any evidence of disease. And in the 9 case of the asbestos workers where it was known that 10 11 1 disease ashes 12 take these X- 13 muckered into 14 hazard where, 15 Q. 16 1 Carbide began 17 facility, did IS 1 fibered nature 19 asbestosis? 20 A. Based on current - based on knowledge at that 21 tine the opinion was that it probably would not do so but 22 that U wouw-b^very-prudent to keep an open mind and to 23 take the X-rays and find out whether or not it did or did 24 not. 25 Q* Did Union Carbide continue to follow those /9u 1 amployaes with chest X-rays? 2 A. Yes, they did. ^ 0. Doctor, did you knov/ at the time you retired 4 from Union Carbide in 1979 whether or not any of the 5 employees who were monitored at the King City facility had 6 been found through the monitoring program to have developed 7 any asbestos related lung diseases? a A. I do not know of any such cases. 9 Q. Doctor, you were also asked at the previous 10 deposition or the previous part of this deposition whether 11 or about some -- let me start this question over. At the 12 previous portion of this deposition you were asked about a 13 study by a Dr. Langer dealing with Calidria asbestos. Do 14 you recall being asked about that? 15 A. Yes, I do. ' 16 ` Q* Do you recall the point being made that these 17 were or that his study was based on samples of Calidria 13 asbestos which he had obtained from Union Carbide? 19 A. I understood that to be he case. . 20 Q. Doctor, was it your experience at Union 21 Carbide that you would sometimes get requests from 22 individuals who were interested in pursuing medical or 23 scientific research samples of marketable chemicals to test 24 or to study? .. 25 A., Yes, we did receive those requests. KIRBY A. KENNEDY St ASSOCIATES (612) 922-1955 . W. .fliat waa the policy at Union Carbide, stated or. unstated, withrsspact to handling such requests? A. A request of that type would come in. Ue would ask for a protocol of the proposed study. And after review with the product managers a decision'would-be reacned as to whether or^not to grant the request for the substance. Q. Doctor, are you aware of any requests for marketable chemicals which came to your attention which Union Carbide refused to provide the researchers with samples for quantities of the marketable chemicals they were requesting? , , -.... A. i o not recall any. DoctorV we earlier discussed a study -which was accomplished at the Mellon Institute in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, regarding -- let me stop right here. MR. HARVARD: Have you got your copies'5 MR. POLK: Yes, I do. MR.- HARVARD: Off the record. (At this time a discussion was held off the record.) BY MR. HARVARD: Q. Doctor, 1 am fixing to show you what I am asking the Court Reporter to mark as Union Carbide' Corporation Exhibit A, and it is entitled "Calidria * KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES (612) 922-1955 Asbestos-Aasin Grade KG 244, Tracheal Insufflation of Rat Lungs with Interpretation of Pathology after 20, SO, 90 and 180 days. Can I ask you, please, to take a look at that document? - (kt this time DER1TSHL Deposition Exhibit 47 was marked for identification by the Court Reporter.) BY MR. HARVARD: ` Q. Doctor, have you had an opportunity to look nov/ at Exhibit 47 to this deposition? A. Yes, I have. Q. And looking at it, what does it appear to be? A. Well, it's a report on a study which was made in which Calridiu asbestos fibers were suspended in saline solution and were introduced into the lungs of rats at various concentrations. The condition at various times. The concentration v/as the sane. I take that back. Two concentrations 1 ml and 1 ml amounts into the lungs through the trachea. ' * . Q. Doctor, what was one of the purposes or what were the purposes of this study, if you can recall? MR. POLX: I will object to the fcrm of the question as being compound. question.4 MR. HARVARD: Sure. I will rephrase the KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES (612) 922-1955 J ; ' . .i. 3* Mil. IIAVARD: 2 s. Doctor, do you 1 1 whet thm purposes ef 3 this study were? 4 A. The purpose was to tind out the type and the 5 oec,rea of effects of ths asbestos on the lungs of rats. 5 2. Doctor, does this appear to be a copy of a 7 study which was commissioned by Onion Carbide Corporation 8 at tha Mellon Institute? * 9 A. Yes, it would be. 10 0. Having reviewed that document at my request, 11 do you recognise it? ' 12 A. it is one I have seen before. 13 Q. Doctor, with respect to your prior testimony 14 at the last deposition or the first part of>this deposition 15 you were asked whether a -- let me get a July 1956 report 16 from the Mellon Institute which is the only study which 17 Union Carbide had sponsored and had conducted at the Mellon . ^ 18 Institute. As you review this document, which has been 19 marked as Exhibit 47 to this depositibn, do you now recall 20 this study also having been conducted at the Mellon 21 Institute at Union Carbide's request? . - 22 A. Yes, I do. 23 MR. POLK: Objected to as leading. I 24 will move to have the answer striken. - 25 MR. BROWNSON: Same objection. KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES (612) 922-1955 ri- BY HR. HARVARD: C. Doctor, do you recall who requested that the study that's reflected as Exhibit 47 be done? " f A- - I do not know who requested it. I don't know Q. Do you recall whether or not that was a study requested by Union Carbide to be accomplished? A. It would have to be from Union Carbide. C. Doctor, let me rephrase the question. Doctor, aid either this study or the 1966 study, which you reviewed in your prior deposition, deal with, address, or study the juestion of whether cancer or mesothelioma tumors' develop in these animals? A. Neither study was involved in that. Q. ^ Doctor, with respect to Exhibit Number 47, ave you had an opportunity to review that exhibit? A. Yes, I have. Q. And did you and I review it prior to your sposition today? A. We looked at it this morning. . Q With respect to any conclusions which were ached in this study, Doctor, what did they tell you as a non Carbide medical personnel about the relationship tween threshold limit value and the Calridia asbestos, if ything? A.. In essence the results of the study which 1 2 3 4 5 7 3 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 IS 17 13 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 usalonsfcrats<I the development of fibrotic nodules within the lung l am getting my sentence confused. Anyway, the utuay suggested tnat it was -- that the material could produce fibrctic tumors in the lung and, therefore, it was important that the dust concentrations in the air be kept ut a low level below the threshold or at or below the tnrashold limit value. C. Doctor, limit value a couple we have mentioned that term threshold of times today as well as in the previous deposition. Without respect to whatever doss lo i/cl there was in a. threshold limit value, could you explain to us generally what a threshold limit value is or was? A. The threshold limit value is a concentration of a substance established by -- it was a concentration of a substance in air to which an individual could be exposed eight hours a day, five days a week for a working lifetime without significant harm and this concentration was established by a group known as ths American Conference of Governmental Industrial Hygienists. Q. Doctor, at some point in time certain of the Calidria asbestos products were marketed in a pelletized form, is that correct? A. I believe so. Q* Do you know who made the decision to market KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES (612) 922-1955 1 certain forms of the Calridia products in a pelletized form' 2 A. I presume the Calridia marketing people. 3 Q* . Do you recall if you were involved at all in 4 that decision? A. rl was not involved in it. o Q. Do you recall what the purposes were or did 7 you ever learn what the purposes .were in palletizing the 8 Calridia asbestos or marketing it in a pellet form as ` 9 opposed to a raw fiber form? 10 MR. POLK: Object to the form of the 11 question, Bill. There is three parts to that question, 12 therefore, it's compound and I object and ask you to 13 rephrase it. Also lacks foundation. 14 .MR. HARVARD: Be happy to. 15 BY MR. HARVARD: 16 0. Doctor, did you have a personal knowledge as 17 to why Calridia asbestos was marketed in a pelletized form, 13 if it was? 19 A. it was marketed in a pelietizad form for the 20 purpose of reducing dusting. 21 Q. Would you explain to to us briefly what you 22 mean by the problem of dusting? 23 A. Well, when you take a loose fibrous material 24 in let's say a shipping bag, in the event of bag breakage 25 Ot. when the material -- when the bag was opened for use. KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES " <612) 922-1955 1 u r g e aoab-irs of blue fiber. - ioo,. fibers free the 2 Uilp.ll0 ti.ed material could readily escape to the air. 3 Once the material was pelletized then the amount of free 4 loose material available for escape ,,as sharply reduced and. therefore, the probability of severe dusting ,,as markedly 6 reduced. 7 . Q. Doctor, did pelletizing absolutely remove ny 8 possibility of dust being generated by the use of * 9 pelletized Calridia asbestos' 10 A. It did not remove it. It just reduced the 11 prooability that high concentrations of dust would be 12 formed. 13 Q. Doctor, I would now like to show you a 14 document which I wlil ask the Court Reporter to mark as 15 Exhibit Number 43 to this deposition. At the top of the 16 document, it's a two page document, at the top it states 17 "Calidria Asbestos" and then typed ln all caps underneath 18 it underlined it states "Asbestos Toxicology Report." On 19 Page 2 of that document in the lower left-hand side appears 20 the date 5-8-69. I state that only for purposes of 21 identification. Would you please take a look at the 22 document? 23 (At this time DERNEtIL Deposition Exhibit 24 48 was marked for identification by the ' 25 Court Reporter.) KIR3Y A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES (612) 922-1955 -!***; A * 1 h *ve seen the document. Q- Did you and I review , -w that two page document Prior to the continuation of your deposition this afternoon, 4 Doctor? 5 5 7 3 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 A. Yes, we did. '3* Do you have or let mmee aasejvc the question dnferently. Who at Union Carbide ,,as responsible tor drafting toxicology reports on the marketable chemicals distributed by Union Carbide? A. Basically I prepared the great majority of them. Sometimes Ur. Lane ,,as involved, this ,,as one in rfhich he was more active than I was. Q- Was Dr. Lane more active than you in the preparation of toxicology reports dealing with the Calridia asbestos? ..... 16 A. At the date of this document, which was 1969, 17 yes, he was. 13 o'. Do you recall ,,hether this Asbestos Toxicology 13 aeport. that's been marked as Exhibit' 48, is one that ,,as 20 drafted personally by you or whetheir it ,,as drafted 21 personally by Dr. Lane, if you know? . 22 A. I believe it was drafted personally fcy Dr. 23 Lane with consultation on ny part. 24 Q. Would you explain to us for vhat purposes the 25 asbestos toxicology reports were prepared? " KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES (612) 922-1955 * U * & * ' h A. They w r j prepared for tranar.iaoion to customers or to users of dalridia asbestos to advise them of uhij hazards associated with its use. C. You saia hazards associated with the uss' A. Right. Q. Doctor, with respect to that, in the asbestos toxicology reports, did you and Dr. Lane report only those findings which you had observed in the medical and scientific literature which established causal relationships between asbestos and disease processes or did you include other information; for example; associations which had been noted in the literature? A. We included the-known and proved types of adverse reactions to the material and in soma instances we indicated tnat thara were soma suggested associations not yet proved which were worthy of consideration. Q. I would like to draw your attention to the paragraph at the bottom of Page 1 of Exhibit 43 and ask you to look at it. Doctor. ' . A. Yes. C. Does that raflect information of the type that Union Carbide knew it says asbestos toxicology reports would provide to customers? A. Yes, it does. Q. Doctor, why would asbestos toxicology reports ' KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES (612) 922-1955 ' A.Vr ba provided to the marketing department or marketing personnel at Union Carbide Corporation? MR. POLK: I am just going to note an objection here on lack of foundation. Go ahead, Doctor. MU. BROtfllSOiT: Same objection. MR. HARVARD: I would be happy to lay the foundation. BY MR. HARVARD: ` Q. Doctor, do you recall at the first portion of this deposition when you were asked about purposes for preparation of the Asbestos Toxicology Report to which you responded one of the purposes was to provide it to marketing people who required it? Do you recall having made that statement? A. Yes. Q. Who either required orrequested it? A. The marketing department. Q. Why would the toxicology reports be provided to such marketing people? ' * A. The marketing people used them in their dealings with the potential customers for the product. Q. Was it your experience at UnionCarbide that when you prepared toxicology reports for different marketable chemicals that one of the primary distribution systems for those toxicology reports was through the KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES (612) 922-1955 < ' -* *.-r V.`- -larxoting department? A. The marketing department was involved. : am - that tney were the primary source of distributer fIra fr3qUSntl* th2 marketing department or the sales organization would advise the customer that such reports - r e available and ask our department to forward a copy to 7 the proposed customer or to the customer himself. 8 C. Doctor, did you or people in the medical * 9 department of Union Carbide ever receive direct requests 10 for toxicology reports on marketable chemicals? 11 A. Yes, we did. 12 lj 14 15 , 16 17 18 19 20 d. From what sources did you receive such requests, what types of people or organizations? A. - Well, we would receive requests from customers from governmental agencies, from universities, from individuals who felt thav "y a , , . a need for such information. Q When you received such a request would you provide the person requesting it with those reports, if such a reported been developed? * . A. Yes, we would. .21 C. Are you -- , 22 A. As w matter of fact, if such a report had not 23 been developed we would frequently go ahead and develop one 24 in response to the request. . 25 Q. Are you aware of Union Carbide or -- Doctor, KIRBY A. KEiJUCDY & ASSOCIATES (612) 922-1955 > > ' 1 " yOU "ars if 0`o carbide ever refused to provide anyone with a toxicology report on one o, their marketable chemicals on request? A* No, I an not aware of any. * Do yu fiffl8Slb-r exactly how many of the marketable chemicals, which fall under your pervi-w, had such toxicology reports prepared on them? . A. I really can't remember the exact number but I know the last time I counted it was 500. C- If I can have a minute to look through my notes for a second.. ' Doctor, let ue now show you what I will ask the Court Reporter now to mark as Defendant. Exhibit 49, which is appears to be a photocopy of a document which 15 states at 16 March 21, 17 and bears IS Medical D] 19 signature 20 ' - 'A. 21 Q. .22 document? 23 A. Yes, I have. 24 (At this tine DERNEliL Deposition Exhibit 25 49 was marked for identification by the *1* r. ,, * A*r . . . . KIRSY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES (612) 922-1955 ^ , , Court Reporter.) 2 3Y MR. HARVARD; 2. la that document that you and I reviewed prior to your dposition here today? A. Yes, we did. 2- Do-tor, is tha signature, which appears ovs: the typed signature line for 0. u. Dernehl a signature, whicn is familiar to you? 9 A. It's my signature. 10 Q. Do you recall having written this letter? 11 MR. POLK; Let me interrupt, if i nay. 12 This is Mike Polk. 13 MR- HARVARD; I know the voice, Mike. 14 ^ MR. POLK; I know you don't want to hear 15 tne voice, but I appreciate the fact that you know it. My 16 copy that I have does not bear a signature, Bill. 17 MR. JONES; The copy that I have here 18 does not bear the signature. 19 MR. POLK:- I find that somewhat 20 interesting. Maybe you could cover that with the Doctor. .21 MR. HARVARD; I will. I suspect I know 22 tne answer to that, but I have a copy here that also . ' 23 doesn't have a signature and one that does. 24 BY MR. HARVARD; 25 Q. Doctor, do you recognize that document? >' KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES (612) 92?-l Q;<r - ' X* A. Apparently a letter that I wrote to a Mr. C. E. Martin. a. Do you remember having -written that letter? 4 A. I am afraid I don't remember writing it, no. 5 a. Have you reviewed the information which is 6 contained in that letter or that internal correspondence'5 7 A. Yes, I have. 8 Q. Does that reflect what information was 9 available to you and is it -- let me ask the question 10 differently. Doctor, does this memoranda reflect some of 11 the attitudes which you understood and held with respect to 12 toxicity of Calridia asbestos during this period of time, 13 the period of time referring to March 21, 1970? c 14 MR. POLK: Object to the question as 0 . . . ' 15 lacking foundation. It calls for speculation, and also it 16 calls for hearsay. 17 MR. BROWNSON: I join in that. 13 BY MR. HARVARD: 19 Q. Have you had an- opportunity to read through 20 the letter. Doctor? 21 A. Yes, I have. 22 Q. -- Does-- this letter or internal correspondence 23 reflect attitudes which you held at that period of time? 24 t 25 A. Yes, it does. ' - .. '\v MR. POLK: May I make something clear on KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES (612) 922-1955.; the record? I would like to know, Bill, -which copy has been marked as Deposition Exhibit 49, that is to say the unsigned or signed copy? 4 >iR. HARVARD: I will tell you what. '7e 5 will check and see if we have a fax here and if we do I 6 will fax you what I am looking at here, the signed copy, 7 because that's what I want attached. 8 i1R. LAURA: Mike, I didn't get your 9 number down last time. 10 MR. POLK: 612-437-2732. 11 MR. LAURA: Was that 2722'> 12 MR. POLK: Correct. 13 MR. JONES: Anthony, nine is 14 512-335-3021. 9 ' 15 MR. LAURA: Why don't we take a five 16 minute break while I get this faxed? 17 MR. POLK: That's not necessary as far 13 as I am concerned at the moment. I appreciate if i get a 19 copy. Let me tall everybody- on the line what ay problem is 20 and get an idea from Bill how long he is going to be. -21 First of all, 3ill, can you give me a general idea of how 22 long you are going- to take? 23 MR. HARVARD: Approximately two more 24 minutes. 25 MR. POLK: May I have the party's KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES (612) 922-1955 v = i-'t 1 permission to do a very short cross that would and before 2 j;00? The reason I am asking is because we have a J conference call with the Court on the ilanisto case at 3:00 4 here in Minnesota. 5 to Court? MR. BP.OWNSON: Conference call with what 7 MR. POLK: Conje again? 3 MR. BROWNSON: What Court'1' 9 MR. POLK: Judge Littman. 10 MR. BROWNSON: That's news to me. 11 MR. HARVARD: I don't care. ' 12 MR. POLK: It deals with some issue that 13 I have with Union Carbide regarding document production on 14 the Bast Coast. 15 MR. BROWNSON: So does that mean that it 16 has to be secret? 17 MR. POLK: Yes, that's what it means, 18 Bob. 19 MR. POLK:- Has anyone got any problem 20 with that procedure? .21 MR. BROWUSOW: I just want the record to 22 reflect that if there is conference calls with Judge 23 Littman we have never been given notice of them. Y, 24 MR. PQLK: It's duly noted. 25 MR. HARVARD: Why don't I go ahead and KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES (612) 922-1955 ay thr tW lrtinutGS worth of questions and then you can move on. . ' BY MR. HARVARD: MR. POLKj ' 'Thank you. 0. Doctor, you and I met for approximately an 6 hour and a half before the deposition continuation this 7 afternoon, is that correct? 8 A. That's correct. 9 Q. Then I believe you had lunch with ny friend 10 here, Mr. Laura? 11 A. Right. 12 0. During our nestings we discussed the natters 13 which you and I have discussed on the record hero today, is 14 that right? 15 A. That's right. ^ ' 15 Q. With respect to what ---- let me ask it 17 differently. Doctor, at the time you left Union Carbide in 18 1979 did you have an opinion as to whether a causal 19 relationship had been established between short fiber 20 v-alridia asbestos and mesothelioma? 21 A. 1 know of no such association. . 22 Q. -- BQg.t-.ox, a t the time you left Union Carbide * . 23 Corporation in 1979 did you have an opinion as to any -- I 24 will rephrase the question. Doctor, at the time you left 25 Union Carbide Corporation in 1979 did you have an opinion KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES (612) 922-1955 as to any causal relationship between short fiber Calridia 2 asbestos and lung cancer? 3 4 the way. i-iR. P0a,Xj That's a yes or no answer, by 5 A. -Jo, I had no I had no opinion on -- no opinion in that regard. S 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 13 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 3. Let me go back to my previous question because I sense an objection to be posed perhaps later on. Please answer this question yes or no, if you can, Doctor. Doctor, at the time you left Union Carbide Corporation in 1979 did you have an opinion as to whether a causal relationship had been established between short fibared Calridia asbestos and mesothelioma? Just did you have an opinion? A. Yes, I had an opinion. t ` Q. And wnat was that opinion, Doctor? A. That there was no known association. Q. Was it also your opinion that no causal relationship had been established? MR. POLK:., I will object to the form of that question as being leading and overly suggestive. BY HR. HARVARD: Q* .-Let me agk the question the long way again then, Doctor. Doctor, at the time you left Union Carbide in 1979 did you have an opinion as to whether a causal relationship had been established between short fiber r KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES . (612) 922-1955 -V 2 3 BY MR. POLK: r b c r o s s -e x j u i u a t i o n 4 Q. Doctor, this is Mike Polk again representing 5 the Plaintiff. How are you? A. All right. 7 U. Good. Doctor, first of all, did you have an 3 opportunity to have any communications with any of the 9 attorneys for Union Carbide other than having lunch with 10 Mr. Laura and your hour and a half conference with Mr. 11 Harvard? ' 12 A. No, I did not. 13 MR. HARVARD: Let me just say for the 14 record, the Doctor may have forgotten I did telephone him 15 to set up the time and the place for my meeting with him 16 before his lunch with Mr. Laura. 17 BY MR. POLK: 13 Q. Doctor, during your conversations with your 19 attorney, Ilr. Harvard, and I-understand that that was this 20 morning, is that correct? 21 A. Thit's correct. 22 -- In your-- conversations with him did you discuss 23 matters with him that he did not ask you about on direct 24 examination today? 25 A. No, we did not. KIR3Y A . KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES * ' i. (612) 922-1955, 1 Q. Doctor, do you believe, sir, that there is an 2 association between cigarette smoking and lung cancer? J A. l'es, there is. At Q. And do you believe, sir, that there is an 5 established cause and effect relationship between cigarette 6 smoking and lung cancer? 7 A. Will you repeat that again? It sounds like 8 the same question to me. 9 Q. Do you believe that it is medically 10 established, scientifically established that there is a 11 cause and effect relationship between cigarette smoking and 12 lung cancer? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. Do you smoke? - 15 A. No. 16 Q. Have you smoked? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. When did you cease smoking 19 A. About 1979. 20 Q. 1979? 21 A. 1979. 22 Q. -- About-- the- time that you le; 23 medical director for Union Carbide, is that right? . * 24 A. That's right. i ' 25 Q. Thank you. Now, Doctor, I have in front of me KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES (612) 922-1955 1 JLl* >Ch c C here a document that I ara not sure if you have cr not. MR. POLK: I think it was referred to in che earlier part of this deposition and, Bill, do you have those there, the prior deposition exhibits? Mil. HARVARD: I never got a copy of them per su. I have a number of exhibits here before me, Mike. I tried to come prepared. Which document is it to which you make reference? MR. POLK: Just a second, I will see. It would be Deposition Exhibit 32. to me? MR. HARVARD: Can you just describe it u MR. POLK: Certainly. It's a January 12, 1965 memorandum, subject "Asbestos Toxicology Report". It's a memorandum written by Thomas Hall. MR. HARVARD: Hold on a second. MR. HARVARD: January 12? MR. POLK: Correct. MR. HARVARD: Two pag2 document? MR. POLK: Correct. ' MR. HARVARD: I have it here. BY MR. POLK:----------- Q. Dr. Dernehl, could you take a look at that? I It believe you looked at it earlier but please take a look at that for a moment. ' . KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES (612) 922-1955 1 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 .ARVARD: Just th: letter itself7 MR. ROLK: At this tins, that's correct. MR. HARVARD: Just the first two pag-ss, Doctor. 1 am calling him that, Mika, because my copy is attached to a number of different things. A * a 1 rlght. x see the letter. Q. Doctor, have you read that letter now7 A. I have read the letter. Q. . Doctor, would you agree with me that as of the time or the date that appears on that letter that Union Carbide recognised an association between asbestos and lung cancer? a . i*7ell, let me read here again for a minute and see what it says about cancer. Well, the letter in effect - talks about reports of cancer producing and effects and then states objections to those reports. Q. a understand that, Doctor, but I want you to answer my question. A. And your question again was? Q. Certainly. I will rephrase it for you and repeat it. Doctor, would you agree that that report indicates that--Union-- Carbide, as of the date which appears on the report, recognised an association between lung cancer and exposure to asbestos? . A. No, I don't think so. I think what the thing KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES (612) 922-1955 \ v 1 says is that there are people who have said that there was 2 such an association. V7e did not necessarily agree. 3 Q. 3o it's your testimony then that in spite of 4 that report, in your mind Union Carbide did not recognise 5 an association between asbestos and cancer at that time, is 6 that correct? 7 A. That's correct. . 4 8 MR. LAURA: I have an objection to that. 9 I just object to the form of that question. 10 BY MR. POLK: ' 11 Q. Now, Doctor, would you agree with me that as 12 of the time of that report that it was recognized within 13 the report that asbestosis was not a condition precedent to 14 the production of lung cancer? 15 . $ ' MR. HARVARD: I object to the form of I! 16 the question. 17 MR. POLK: Fine. 18 MR. LAURA: I think there is confusion, 19 Mike. Are you talking about the asbestos toxicology report 20 now or the letter? 21 MR. POLK: Talking about the letter. He 22 hasn't read the asbestos toxicology report yet. 23 MR. LAURA: You said report. 24 MR. POLK: Well, its entitled "Asbestos 25 Toxicology Report" in the covering letter. I basing my KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES (612) 922-1955 gus cion now to the Doctor solely upon his review of the 2 two pages of Ur. Hall's latter dated January 12, 1965. 3 A. I don't see that this letter has anything to 4 do with whether or not asbestosis -- the disease asbestosis 5 and lung cancer are concomitant. Q. So your answer to my question would be no7 7 MR. HARVARD: Object. I would request 8 that you pose the question again. . 9 ilR. POLK: Okay. 10 BY MR. POLK: 11 Q. Doctor, the exhibit, Deposition Exhibit 32 12 that you have now reviewed, would you agree with me that 13 that has information contained within it that would 14 indicat that the disease of asbestosis is not a condition 9 . _ 15 precedent to the development of lung cancer? 16 ' A. I do not see that this letter says anything of 17 the kind. 13 Q. And it's your testimony that as of 1965 you 19 had no indication from any source that asbestos could cause 20 cancer, is that correct? 21 A. We did not know of any such information that -- 22 we did not know of any such information. 23 G. Jo is the answer to my question correct, or is 24 what I said correct? I will repeat it again, if youuish. 25 MR. HARVARD: Would you repeat it, KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES (612) 922-1955 1|V 1 Ml < 2 '*M^EklS 3 1 4 -\^B- I - 5 1' 1 5 ^qjjpjy B 1 1 7 ; I 3 1 9 I 10 r> I . I ii iL *%i p i c m m - 1 MI $*1- 1 'f 1 *? 1 % I 'i 1 * I 1 I 1 i 1 It 1 f I I ? I ' 1 I / C 5" 1 4 I - 14 . 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 . * 1 please? A I don t know what you are talking about. Q. Okay. Doctor, is it correct that as of January 12, 1963, you had no indication from any source v/hatsoever that indicated to you that there v/as an association between asbestos and lung cancer? MR. HARVARD: Object to the form and. also object on the use of vague terms. BY MR. POLK: Q. Doctor, is there anything about that question that 1 just asked you that you don't understand? A. answer. Repeat it again, please, so I can clarify that Q. Would you agree with me that as of January 12 ' - of 1965, you had no indication from any source that there was an association between asbestos and lung cancer7 MR. HARVARD: Same objection. A. My answer to that would be we had no indications at that time of any association in 1965. . Q. And so to answer my specific question, you had no indication from any source that there was an association between asbestos and lung cancer, is that correct7 MR. HARVARD: Same objection. Asked and answered as well. . - - v MR. POLK: No, it was not. * ' `\. V , - ' ' -r:V . KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES ' (612) 922-1955> ' . Vv c : $- ^~\j .i tS. (. r*f ffc ZJ-.f A. ilo Q. I am sorry, I didn't hear your answer. A. attention. Q. My answer was no, ............ it did not come to our Well, some information apparently came to your attention before January 12, 1965, which you did not agree with that indicated an association between asbestos and - - lung cancer, is that much true? MR. HARVARD: Do you understand the question? A. * Some of that information might have come across my desk . We did not agree with it for var iou s reasons. Q. I understand that. You have made that very clear. Doctor. That's not my question. I will follow it up again with a different question, however, the material that you are referring to that may have crossed your desk that you did not agree with, when was the first time that that kind of material suggesting an association between asbestos and lung cancer first crossed your desk? A. I have absolutely no way of knowing what that time was. Q. Sut you have earlier testified that it definitely was not before 1960, is that correct' ` A.- I would say that is absolutely correct. tV- (612) 922-1955 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 3 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q. From that may we assume that it cama.across your desk at soma time between 1960 and January 12, 19650 MR. HARVARD; Object to the form of the question. You may assume what you wish. Answar it if you can, Doctor. A. On a logical basis you would have to assume that that is a correct statement. . ' # 0. Thank you. Doctor, where are you right now? A. Where am I? Springfield, Missouri. Q. I understand. Are you in a law office there for W. R. Grace, is that correct? A. I don't know who it's for. It's a law office. Q. And presently with you are Union Carbide attorneys Sill Harvard and Tony Laura, is that right0 A. Right. .... ' MR. BISHOP? Gary Bishop for W. R. Grace. Just so the record is clear, us are not at my offices. We . ' * ; : \ are in the offices of a third-party law firm that is just providing these facilities so that we could take this ' deposition. BY MR. POLK; MR. POLK: Thank you. Q. Doctor, I have a few other questions. You earlier testified that the sole purpose of pelletising Calridia asbestos.was to, "reduce the problem of dusting." KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES (612) 922-1955 ^ ^ 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Do you recall that testimony? A. Yes. . .. Q. Doctor, what is the basis for you so stating" A. Well, it's obvious that the material which is in a pelletized form has less ability to release large quantities of dust than does a loose mass of fibers. Q. Doctor, you have made that also very clear. My question to you is what is the basis for you having Knowledge that the sole purpose of pelletizing the Calridia asbestos was to reduce the problem of dusting, where did you obtain that information from? A. I learned that on my plant visits. Q* On your plant visits to King City, California' A. Right. t Q. And the first plant visit that you made to King City, California wa3 when? , A. That s hard to recall. in the early '60s. Sometime I would say Q. In 1962 or '63 perhaps? * A. I am 3orry, I can't give you that close a data. Q. V/ho told you that the pelletizing of Calridia asbestos or the sole purpose of pelletizing that product was to reduce the dusting problem? A. I have no idea who told me that. Somebody who ' conducted me on the plant tour. KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES (612) 922-1955 < 2. ' Doctor, is it your understanding then that the pelletizing of the Calridia asbestos was done from the inception of the King City mill' A. 1 can't answer that for sure, but I don't believe it was. That was started, I believe, a couple of years after the mill was in operation. Q. And, Doctor, you would agree with me, would you not, that non-pelletised Calridia asbestos fiber was sold by Union Carbide? A. At one time, yes. Q. And, Doctor, do you have any information within your personal knowledge that would indicate when 13 Union Carbide ceased selling open fiber Calridia asbsstos? c 14 A. I have no way of knowing. 15 Q. 3o you don't know if Union Carbide sold open 16 Calridia asbestos fiber to the Conwed plant in Cloquet, 17 Minnesota, as late as 1974? 13 A. I frankly don't know that they ever sold any . 19 to Conwed. ' - 20 Mi*. HARVARD: I am sorry, it was Conwed' 21 THE WITNESS: Conwed, excuse me. 22 BY MR. POLK: 23 0. Doctor, would your opinions with reference to 24 the hazards of asbestos be any different if you were to L 25 assume that asbestos being sold to Conwed was sold in a KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES (612) 922-1955 A 1 2 3 4 5 3 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 open fiber form? A. I would say it would be more hazardous than the pelletized material% Q. Doctor, what studies, if any, did Union Carbide perform, to your knowledge, on Union Carbide asbestos pellets that demonstrated that this dusting was less than open fiber? I have no personal knowledge of any studies that they made. Q. Doctor, do you have any personal knowledge whatsoever that would allow you to testify as to whether or not the salesperson dealing with the Conwed plant in Cloquet, Minnesota between 1962 and 1974 ever received or saw uny of your toxicology reports or your office's - ? ' - ' toxicology reports on asbestos? ` MR* HARVARD: Object to form. A. I would have no way of answering that. Q. Doctor, just a couple other quick questions. You, in your direct examination, indicated or differentiated between an association and a causal relationship, is that correct? A. Yes. Q. Doctor, what is your criteria for there to bo an association, as you have used that term? 1 .* . MR. HARVARD: Do you mean an association " " KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES "T . ' . - ` (612) 922-1955 -'`w- ,?> . - 1 in general or witli respect to particular category of 2 subjects? ' 3 BY iIII. POLK: 4 Q. lie. I am talking, Doctor, specifically with 5 reference to your definition of the word association in a 6 medical context. In other words, what criteria do you use 7 or do you require before you can conclude that there is an - 8 association between a substance and a medical maladay S resulting from that substance? 10 A. In the concept of an association what you are 11 talking about is a group of people who are exposed to a 12 given substance and who demonstrate an increased incidence 13 of a disease as -- well, that's it. 14 Q. And what do you require when you use the word 15 . causal relationship, that is to say, what criteria.do you 13 require to conclude that there is a causal relationship as 17 you have defined those terms? . 18 A. All right. With the causal relationship you ' * 19 require mors data than you do for a simple association. A 20 causal relationship you not only have to demonstrate the 21 fact that there is indeed an exposure to a given material, 22 you have to demonstrate the fact that this disease appears 23 only in those people who are exposed to this material. You 24 have to demonstrate the fact that there are no other 25 factors involved in the potential cause for the condition KI2BY A. KENNEDY ASSOCIATES (612) 922-1955 ** *.. - 1_ observed in the people. And as a last step, if at all 2 possible, you want animal experimentation to prove that 3 indeed this material is capable of doing what it is 4 observed to be doing in humans. 5 Q. Thank you, Doctor. That answers my question. 6 Referring onca again to Exhibit Number 32, that's the 7 letter now that Dr. Hall wrote? 3 A. Yes. * 9 Q * In the third paragraph within that letter, the 10 second line, you will see that he referred to, "The cancer 11 producing report'." Do you see that' ' 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. Doctor, what cancerproducing report was Dr. 14 Hall referring to? ^ ' 15 L.. I don t have theremotest idea. 16 MR. HARVARD: Off the record. 17 (At this time a discussion was held off 18 * the record.) 19 3Y MR. POLK: ' * 20 Q. Now, Doctor, again referring to that same 21 exhibit, you will see in Paragraph 2 that Dr. Hall is 22 suggesting that he is going to have you "Formulate a 23 statement for us", and that's a quote. Do you see that' 24 Yes, I see it. . 25 Q* . Now, did you ever formulate a statement for KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES (612) 922-1955 'r e them? A. The answer is yas. G. And that's embodied in your Asbestos Toxicology Report or reports? 7 . 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 15 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 depends on which one you refer to. C. Let me ask you this. Other than documents tnat are entitled "Asbestos Toxicology Reports", did you xorauiate any internal documentation or statements that are not entitled "Asbestos Toxicology Reports" that you drafted or had drafted for general circulation? ' A. I really can't remember. * Q. Now, in the first paragraph of that exhibit, you wi-j.1 see that Dr. Hall refers to several reports given at technical meetings and summaries of them carried by'the national wire services. Do you see that? A. Yes. ' Q. That several reports is he referring to? A. I don't have any idea. 3. What technical meeting is he referring to7 A. I don't have any idea. Q. What summaries is ha referring to? I don't have any idea. Q. And what national wire services is ha referring to? A., I don't have any idea. KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES (612) 922-1955 Q.. i Do you have any ilea about this, lid you 2V3r sue any of the reports, any minutos of the technical meetings or any summaries of the national wire services that are referred to within chat latter? 6 argumentative, Mil. HARVARD: Object to the for m as 7 3 saw them. MR. POLK: am just ashing if he aver 9 MR. HARVARD; I understand. My 10 objection as argumentative goes to the nature of the ' 11 preparatory comment.. 12 13 it then. MR. POLK; I will withdraw that part of 14 A. Since I have no idea what he refers to, I have ' - . _ ' 15 no way of knowing whether I ever saw any of them or not. 16 Q. Doctor, than finally, you know Mr. Pufahl, is 17 that correct? 18 A. Bud Pufahl, yes. 19 Q. Now, I have a document here in front of me 20 that is dated February 3, 19G6 and I don't believe that 21 that was used in the earlier part of this deposition. 22 -------- POLK; I don't know. Bill, if you 23 have a copy there or not. 24 MR. HARVARD; I am looking right now, 25 Mike. Can you give me a hint as to what it is? Is it a KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES (612) 922-19*5*5'**r *-Ti. memo? is it a bread basket"5 it a litter? MR. POLK: it's a Lamborghini car. - .K* HARVARD: ,1s don1'c have it. * MR. POLK: It's a February 3, 1955 latter from Pufahl to Pater Cheston. may i continue? .While you are looking BY MR. POLK: MR. HARVARD: Yes. Q. Doctor, do you know who Mr. Peter R. Cheston is of London, England? A. I do not. Q. Doctor, can you recollect back in the 1965 tine frame about the U.K. paper industry and issues involving asbestos within that industry? generally new. I an just talking A. Hot really. Q. Well, let me ask you this. Did you ever meet with Mr. Pufahl in 1966 and review with him toxicology studies relative to asbestos- that were from England? ' - A. I really can't recall. Q. Doctor,, do yourecall this, doyourecall indicating t-o--Mr -- Pufahl in 1966 that the papers that you reviewed at that time, "Do not by any means present c incontrovertable proof nor do they profess to do so." Do you recall that at all? KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES (612) 922-1955 1 A. I an sorry, I have no idea what that latter is 2 associated with. Q. Let me ask you this. Do you recall advising 4 Mr. Pufahl in 1966, and this would be prior to February 3 5 of 1966, that Union Carbide's, "Position should remain that 6 in United States experience there has been no increased 7 incidence of lung cancer when the threshold limit has not 3 bean exceeded." Do you recall ever making that statement 9 to Mr. Pufahl? 10 A. I don't recall making it to Pufahl, but I 11 agree with it. 12 Q. So you don't have any reason to doubt that you 13 may have stated that at that time, is that right? 14 A. I would say that's correct. 15 C. Doctor, do you have any information, and you 16 may feel that this is a ridiculous question, but let me 17 just ask it anyway. Do you have any information that the 18 anatomical makeup of a native of England is any different 19 than the anatomical makeup of a person living in the United 20 States in 1966? 21 MR. HARVARD: Object to the form as 22 argumentativ-e, but go-ahead. 23 A. They are mad at us. I can't answer the 24 question. 25 Q. Do you have any information that would ` KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES " W~ ` (612) 922-1955 * v indicate to you in 1966 that a native of England was more susceptible to asbesto-related diseases than persons in the United States? A. That, sir, would require a text because of the high incidence of air pollution in England at that time and at subsequent years and the effect that this might indeed have upon the development of asbestosis. Q. My question though relates to 1966 and that is whether or not you had any information which indicated to you that persons in England were more susceptible to asbestos diseases than persons in the United States. Do you have a recollection of having any information in that regard at that time? A. The only recollection I would have would be that if you asked me that question i n -1965 my answer would be the same, that the high incidence of air pollution in England would make it vary likely that the people exposed to asbestos would be more likely to have asbestosis. Q. Again, did you -have that information in 1966' MR. HARVARD: Asked and answered. MR. POLK: Mo, it is not. BY MR. POLK s------ :---- Q. Did you have that' A. Certainly everybody knew about the air pollution of England in 1966. KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES 2x3 ^ 1 C. So in your view, as of February 3, 1956, it 2 was your understanding and you held the belief that persons in England were more susceptible to asbestos-related 4 diseases than persons in the United States? 5 A. I did not have that belief and I don't believe 6 in chat particular thing. You are trying to create 7 something which did not exist in my personality at that 3 time. 9 MR. POLK: Bill, do you have that 10 document? 11 MR. HARVARD: lie don't have it here. 12 Mike. I am sorry, we would love for you to fax us a copy 13 but I don't have it here with me. 14 ' MR. POLK: x\ll right. 15 MR. HARVARD: We are happy to either 16 have you fax a copy or read portions of it to the Doctor 17 and ask him questions. 13 BY MR. POLK: 19 Q. Why don't I do that.. Doctor the second 20 paragraph in your letter or, I am sorry, this is Mr. 21 -Pufahl's letter, in fact I will read the first paragraph. 22 It says, "Dear Pitar:" this is to Peter Cheston of Union k . ' Carbide Limited, 8 Grafton Street, London, England. It 24 says, "Dear Peter: Your suggestion that we consider 25 including, 'U.K. paper industry' in our general sale3 . to KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES (612) 922-1955 * A is wall taken -- and I plan to review the notes 2 with Ian Sayers. J Apropos of your letter on toxicological 4 studies relative to asbestos -- we have reviewed the two excerpts you sent us with Dr. Carl Dernehl. lie counsels that the papers 'do not by any means present 3 y 10 J. 12 13 14 15 16 17 IS 19 20 .21 22 23 24 25 incontrovertible proof nor do they profess to do so.' Further: 'Our position should remain that in United States experience there has been no increased incidence of lung cancer when the threshold limit has not been exceeded.'" Doctor, does tnat help refresh your recollection at all on this subject? A. It states two things. Q. Doctor, let me interrupt you. I am just aoKing you if what I read helps refresh your recollection? That's all I have asked you. A. No. Q. Now, let me just go on in this letter, in the second paragraph, of the letter it states this, again this letter being written by Mr. Pufahl, ''We will let you know the results, probably in an appropriately written statement by Dr. Dernehi^-!*-- My--question to you, Doctor, is this, do you have any recollection of writing a statement at the request of Mr. Pufahl dealing with the subject matter that's contained within this letter? - .- . ...u, KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES i612 1 922-1955 zk ii f ( / V- - will look at your letter of March 31, 1970, which I think 2 has now been marked as Exhibit 49, do you see that letter' 2 wJ A. Yes, I have it. 4 C. The last paragraph.reads, "3ome people believe 5 tnere is an association between exposure to asbestos dust 6 and the development of lung cancer and mesothelioma. There 7 is no information regarding Calridia asbestos in this 3 respect as yet. It would be prudent to assume that 9 Calridia asbestos will behave like other asbestos in this 10 regard." Do you see that reference? 11 A. Yas. 12 Q. Can we assume that that is something you wrote since it's over your signature? 3 14 A. That's right. . i . 15 . Q. Would you agree with me then that as of March 16 31, 1970 you believe that Calridia asbestos may very well 17 cause mesothelioma? 18 A. No. I simply stated it wouldn't be prudent to 19 assume that this might happen. It doe3 not mean that it 20 will happen. . 21 Q. Would you agree with me that as of March 31, 22 1970 you thought-- that-- it was a possibility? 23 A. Anything is a possibility when you are dealing 24 with something like that. 25 Q. Well, ybu thought it was enough of a _ . .. . . ' KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES (612) 922-1 Q;; ` . <' . -i-, ' possibility to write in your letter that a prudent person *> should assume that it? might occur? A. . That's right. i MR. HARVARD: I object to th2 form 5 bacausi tnat is not Wiiut is stated. it does not state a 6 prudent person could assume that would occur. It states 7 what it says in the letter and I object to your 3 characterization. 9 MR. BRQtfNSOM: Well, I think he lias 10 already answered the question. 11 MR. HARVARD: lly object is still on the 12 record. The Doctor answered prior to my objection. !ly 13 objection, I believe, is good. 14 MR. BROWtISOSi: The objection is noted. . 15 ,, , MR. HARVARD: Good. 1G BY MR. 2R0WNS0L?; 17 Q. Did you also believe, Doctor, as of March 31, 13 1970 that mesothelioma could be caused by exposure to 19 asbestos below the then -.existing TLV or threshold limit 20 value? 21 A. I did not believe that because we had no 22 evidence to--support-such a belief. 23 Q. Well, I am not talking about Calridia 24 specifically, I am talking about any type of asbestos. Let 25 rue rephrase the question. . KIRBY A. KE3WEDY & ASSOCIATES (612) 922-1955 ; A. I think you said Calridia the first tine. .... Q* . if I did, I will rephrase the question. As of .-larch 33., 1973 did you believe that mesothelioma could be caused by exposure to any type of asbestos at levels belov; the threshold limit value? A. Uo, we did not. Q. Let me refer you,Doctor, to what's been marked as Exhibit 43, which i3 the asbestos toxicology report of May 8, 1959. Do you see that? A. Yes. Q. Look atthe last paragraph on Page 1. A. Yes. Q. The second to the last sentence which reads, "From the data available it appears that the 7LV of five million particles per cubic foot may not be lew anough to protect against mesothelioma." Do you see tliat? A. Yes. Q. So would you agree v/ith me that at least According to Union Carbide's-Asbestos Toxicology Report of May 3, 19o9 somaone at Union Carbide believed that to be true? question. ------- MR-^- HARVARD: Object to the form of the SY MR. BR0WN30N: ' ' Q. Go ahead and answer. KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES (612) 922-1955' > ' i&fViVs X Mil. HARVARD: He is looking at the report right now. ' ' MR. 3R0WIJS0N: Excuse me. 4 MR. HARVARD: He is looking ?.t the 5 report right now. 6 A. I said at the tine that this statement 'was 7 made it was probably true because very shortly aftsrv.'ards 3 the threshold limit level was lowered from five to two. 9 Q. Well, would you agree with me that at that 10 time you questioned whether even two million fibers per 11 cubic foot was an adequate threshold limit value to prevent 12 against mesothelioma? 13 A. No, I would not agree with that. 14 Q. Well, let me refer you, Doctor, then to a 15 letter which I think your Counsel has and I 'would ask that 16 we pull out. It was Exhibit 33, the letter of June 7, 1967 17 to Dr. Hall from yourself. 18 MR. HARVARD: Hold on on that. Let's 19 see if we can find it. June. 7, '63, is that right? 20 ilR. BROS J1I30N: '67. 21 MR. HARVARD: I am sorry, '67. 22 ________MR-.-BROWNSON: A two page letter on 23 Union Carbide stationery. 24 MR. LAURA: Can we go off the record? 25 ' (At this time a discussion was held off " KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES ~ o'l'i.ioes ' ' " -- the record.) A. I can understand it. VJhat's your question? q . hot's go back on the record hers. My question, Doctor, is this.,: In your letter of June 7, 1967 to Dr. Hall, which has previously been narked as Dernshl Deposition Exhibit 33, you make the statement on Page 2 in the second full paragraph, "It is probable -- " and I am quoting, "It is probable that the five million particles per cubic foot will not be acceptable for the prevention of mesothelioma. I have no idea what concentration might be effective in preventing this disease and I am wondering whether a level of one million particles per cubic foot would be acceptable." Do you see that reference? A. Yes, I see that. . Q. Having read that would you agree that as of June of 1967 you were questioning whether a threshold limit value of one million particles per cubic foot would be effective to prevent mesothelioma? MR. HARVARD: Object to the form. Go ahead, Doctor. A. No. Actually this is a simple statement that you say, "Gee, I-won4er if -- " and it simply says here -- I simply say here I wonder whether a limit of one million particles would be effective. Q. That's right. . KIRSY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES (612) 922-1955 1 \W. Two million particles might still be effective. c 2 2. But I guess the question is there was at least 3 some question in your mind as of'that date whether one A million might be effective or not' 5 A. No, not really. I was just simply expressing 6 an opinion about the uncertainty of this thing and I used n/ the "I wonder if" as a way of doing that. 3 Q. Would you agree with me that as of June 7, 9 1967 you believed there was some uncertainty as to whether 10 the threshold limit value would prevent mesothelioma? li A. Depends upon what the threshold limit value 12 was. iJ f V 14 Q. Let's take five million fibers per cubic foot. A. Five million particles par cubic foot was 15 probably too high on the basis of the.fact that it h*d 16 subsequently been lowered to two. 17 Q. Would you agree with me as far as you were 13 concerned you did not know whether two million fibers per 19 cubic foot would prevent mesothelioma? .. 20 .21 A. No, I did not know that. Q. Do you believe that a3 of 1967 Union Carbide 22 should have-coniteyed-- to its customers the fact that it was 2J not certain whether two million particles per cubic foot 24 C . 25 would prevent mesothelioma? ...... ' MR. HARVARDs Object to the form of the L ..... KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES . 1 question. You can answer. Doctor, if you can. 2 A. I would say no simply because it would have 3 been going contrary to the generally accepted opinions of 4 that day and time. 5 Q. Do you believe that as of June of 1967 Union 6 Carbide should have told its customers of Calridia asbestos 7 that two million fibers per cubic foot threshold limit 8 value would prevent mesothelioma? 9 MR. HARVARD: Object to the form of the 10 question and also object to the question in so far as it's 11 talking about what a corporation should or should not have 12 done which may be outside the realm of anyone's perview 13 other than the jury's in this case. Answer the question, 14 if you can. Doctor. 15 A. No, I don't think I can answer that. 16 ; Q. Do you believe, Doctor, that as of August of 17 1972 Union Carbide Corporation should have told its 18 customers of Calridia asbestos that if they ware within the 19 ' threshold limit value they did not need to worry about any 20 disease among thair employees? 21 MR. HARVARD: Object to the form. Same 22 objection as before. Answer the question if you can, 23 Doctor. 24 A. I think the corporation had the right to 25 inform its customers that on the basis of current knowledge, . ,. ' KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES ( e n \ (n<i.iatc v >  X which was a threshold U n i t value, that they could expect the employees to be protected against the hazard. ( 2 . 3 Q. Doctor, would that include the hazard of 4 mesothelioma as of August of 1972? 5 A. Mesothelioma must have been considered in this 6 setting of the threshold limit value. 7 MR. HARVARD: I object. I have the same 8 form of objection to that question as I previously stated. 9 I don't think the Court Reporter heard it. The Doctor and 10 I were talking at the same time. 11 3Y MR. BROVfHSOLi: 12 Q. Doctor, do you believe that as of 1967 Union Carbide should have stated in a label on Calridia asbestos ( V 3 14 bags that there was ;a possibility that Calridia could cause 15, mesothelioma? 16 MR. HARVARD: Object to the form of the 17 question and I will also state that this entire line of 13 questioning was done on earlier cross-examination and I am 19 objecting to the question as having previously been asked 20 and answered. It's also beyond the scope of the direct 21 examination which was just conducted. ' 22 HR. BROWMSON: Are you going to let him 23 answer? 24 . MR. HARVARD: You can answer the C. 25 question,, if you can, Doctor. . KIRBY A. KENNEDY Sc ASSOCIATES . - ` " 'i - . ... (6121 922-1955 ' '' ' " ^ 1" A. Would you repeat the question? In the conversation I lost it. , 4 Kirby? MR. BROWWSON: . Would you read that, 5 (At this tine the requested portion of the transcript was read aloud by the Court Reporter.) MR. HARVARD: Same objections. 9 A. In 1967 there was no evidence that Calridia 10 asbestos would cause mesothelioma so there is no point in 11 putting it on the label. 12 Q. Doctor, earlier this afternoon Mr. Kennedy 13 asked you some questions about or Mr. Harvard, I am sorry, 14 asked you some questions about the toxicology reports and * . - ... 15 who they would be sent to and that sort of thing. Do you 16 recall that? 17 A. Yes. 13 Q. Do you have any information. Doctor, that any 19 asbestos toxicology report from Union Carbide was m fact 20 sent to Conwed Corporation? 21 A. I have no information on that. 22 Q. Let me pose to you some hypothetical questions. 23 MR. HARVARD: Object to the form of any 24 hypothvticals. 25 , MR. BR0WNS0N: ' Objection is noted. Bill. .. KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES .. .. ` - (612) 922-1955 * 2 3 4 5 5 7 pi 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 13 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 3Y MR. .DROWNSOLJ: Q. Humber 1, iE Union Carbide personnel conducted air sampling at the Conwed plant m 1972, as sunie that's true, Docror, do you believe those Union Carbide industrial hygienists should have informed Conwed that Calridia could possibly cause mesothelioma? question. MR. HARVARD: Object to the form of the - Object to the question as calling for speculation. Object to the question as a hypothetical. Object to the question as argumentative. Go ahead, Doctor, answer if you can. A. Hell, in 1972 there wa3 still no evidence that Calridia asbestos could cause mesothelioma. Q. Doctor? So would your answer to the question be no, ; MR. HARVARD: answered the question. I believe the Doctor did. MR. 3R0i/iIG0H: Well, I don't think he ` ' ' . MR. LAURA: He obviously felt it didn't call for a yes or no answer. 2Y MR. BROWNSON: Q. Doctor, answer this question. Assume hypothetically that Union Carbide personnel conducted air sampling at the Conwed premises in 1972. Do you believe KIRBY A. KENNEDY & .ASSOCIATES . ` (612) 922-1955 ; - ! whose Union Carbide personnel should have informed Conwed 2 that Cairidia asbestos exposure below the threshold limit 3 vaiue could causa mesothelioma? 4 MR. HAVARD: Object to the form of the 5 question. Object to the form as hypothetical. Object to 6 the form as argumentative. Calling for speculation. 7 Object to the form as calling for information outside the 3 scope and the knowledge of this witness. Further object as 9 asked ana answered. Go ahead and answer the question now, 10 Doctor, if you can. 11 A. First of all, the only thing I can say is that 12 I know of no evidence that Union Carbide people ever did 13 make any surveys at Conwed. 14 Q. That's why I asked it hypothetically. Doctor, i 15 because I know you are not aware of that. 16 ' A. I would expect that Union Carbide people would 17 inform the Conwed people that they were within the 18 threshold limit value and that was really the only thing 19 that we were in a position to answer to. - 20 Q. Let me ask the further hypothetical and save time. I assume your same objections will be made and they 22 are noted here. 23 MR. HARVARD: I will just place my 24 objections to the last question to this question. ` 25 BY MR. 3R0WNS0N: KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES ' (612) 922-1955 1 Q. Do you believe, Doctor, taut if Union Carbide 2 personnel were as';ad at tha time of such air sampling that J they should have disclosed that any disease could be caused 4 by exposure to asbestos under the threshold limit value' 5 II?.. HARVARD: 3ame objection. 6 A. I am not sure I can answer that question tha 7 way it was worded. 3 0. Why is that. Doctor? 9 A. Wall, tha way I -- well, I can't understand it 10 the way it was worded, especially the last part of it. 11 Q. Let me rephrasa it and it will be tha same 12 hypothetical and the same objections are noted. Do you 13 believe. Doctor, if Union Carbide personnel were conducting 14 air sampling at the Conwed plant in 1972 and were ashed by 15 Conwed whether exposure to Calridia asbestos under the 16 threshold limit value could cause disease, do you believe 17 then they should have -- strike that. What response should 13 they have given to that question if asked? 19 MR. HARVARD: Game *objections, plus . 20 object to the compound nature of the question. 21 A. My opinion is that their response should have 22 been that they were not qualified to answer that question. 23 Q. If those Union Carbide personnel who were not 24 qualified to answer the question wanted an answer in August 25 of 1972 who within Union Carbide could they have turned to " KIRBY A. KENNEDY S. ASSOCIATES ' : ~ ~ (612) 922-1955 ` ' 1 at that time to get an answer? 2 A. New York. They would have come to probably my office in 4 Q. Doctor/ I have a few more questions here. 5 *a^3.ier this afternoon Mr. Harvard was asking you about 5 ~alridia being short fibsred. Do you remember those 7 questions? S A. Yes. 9 Q. Do you recall what the definition of asbestos 10 was by OSHA in 1972/ how they defined asbestos? 11 A. No, I don't recall that. 12 Q*Have you ever heard asbestos defined as a 13 fiber of five microns in length? Have you ever heard that 14 definition used? ' 15 A. Well, I suppose that would be -- could be five, 16 or six, or seven, or eight, or 10, or 20. 17 Q. I am just wondering if you have heard the 13 definition of five microns used in any context? 19 A. V/ell, I have heard the -- well, I am not sure 20 I can answer it in that regard. I have heard of the fact x that asbestos is described as a material of varying fiber 22 length varying-- froa-Erctually two and three microns up to 20 23 or more microns. 4 24 Q. Let me ask you this, Doctor. Would you agree 25 with me that those Calridia asbestos fibers which are less KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES a n _ i n'cc < * 1 than five microns in length are still asbestos fibers'5 2 A. Sure. J Q. In other words, what I am getting at, Doctor, 4 is just because a Cairidia fiber might be less than five 5 microns or ten microns or any other length, it's still an 5 asbestos fiber, would you agree with that? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. Do you know, Doctor, what resolution a 400 9 power Leitz phase contrast microscope would have"5 10 A. No idea. 11 Q. I think you told us earlier you hadn't 12 actually counted fibers under a microscope, but I am 13 wondering now if you simply know what the resolution of 14 such a microscope would bs? 15 A. No, I have no idea. 16 Q. One finalquestion, Doctor. If a person were 17 counting Cairidia asbestos fibers, do you agree with me 13 that they should count all Cairidia asbestos fibers even if 19 they are less than five microns in length"5 v 20 I1R. HARVARD: Object to the form. There 21 is no context in which that question is given. I don't 22 know that it's capable of an answer being in the abstract, A ' 23 unless it's set forth for what purpose this counting or 24 msasurement is assumed to be used. 25 BY HR. BROWN3O N : ' . . v ` " *T'. " ! ' KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES . .. - ffil 91 009-1 04t` Q. hut s fair enough. Let me rephrase the question, Doctor. If a person were tasting the air to see if there were Calridia asbestos fibers in the area, would you agree witn me that that person, to determine the number of fibers in the air, should count all Calridia fibers, whether or not they are less than five microns in length' MR. HARVARD: I have the same objection as still being overly broad and vague for purposes of giving a meaningful answer. Answer it if you can, Doctor. A. I can't answer it because I an not an expert in the counting of fibers and the guys that set up the criteria for fiber counting have their own rules with which I am not familiar. 2. Do you know if Union Carbide at any time, set up its own criteria as to how to measure or count Calridia fibers? A. I have no way of knowing. Q. You never had anything to do with that, I take it? - A. Absolutely not. 2. Do you know who at Union Carbide would have had something-- to-- do-with that? A. LaFrance. I would assume either B. W. McDaniel or L. J. ' MR. BROWNSON: That's all I have, Doctor. XIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES (612) 9 2 2 - 1 9 > / ' _ : ^ & ' v iv:'.** '  X1 Thank you. 2 MR. HARVARD: I have son*.very brief -> redirect, probably three to four minutes. Doctor, are you 4 able to do that much right now? ...... 5 THE WITNESS: Yes. o MR. HARVARD: Does anybody else have any 7 ether questions before I do my very brief redirect? 3 MR. BROWNSON: I have a couple more, 9 Bill. Can I just ask them? 10 MR. HARVARD: Go ahead. 11 BY MR. BROWNS Oil: . 12 Q. Earlier, Doctor, Mr. Harvard had asked you 13 about Dr. Langer's article that we asked you about last 14 weak.'' Do you have any reason to believe, as you sit here 15 today, that Dr. Langer's research oh Calricia asbestos is 13 not valid? 17 HR. HARVARD: Object to the form of the 13 question. The Doctor doesn't have Dr. Langer's research in 19 front of him nor am I aware that Dr. Dernehl has ever-seen 20 Dr. Langer's research, nor in fact do we have before us a 21 copy of the conclusions Dr. Langer reached in the sapor 22 which he published.-- Absent Dr. Dernehl having an . . 23 opportunity to review those prior to answering such a 24 question I will object to it and I will direct the witness 25 not to answer. ' KIRBY A. KENNEDY fit ASSOCIATES (612) 922-195.5 1 MR. 3R0T7NS0LI: Well, would you agree 2 with as, Bill, that Dr. Dernehl did, we spant quite a bit of time doing it, he did read the Langer article last week, 4 we showed it to him and presented it to him and he read it. 5 MR. HARVARD: 'Weren't these questions 6 covered then, Bob? Quite frankly I don't remember whether nt he did or not. "..hy don't you ask him that question. oo BY MR. BROWNSON: 9 Q. Do you remember reading the article I showed 10 you about Dr. Langer's study of the Calidria fiber? 11 A. I remember reading an article. It seems to me 12 that that was an article which was devoted to description 13 of the asbestos fiber. 14 Q. Right. That's the article. All I am 15 wondering, Doctor, and you can just answer yes or no, do 16 you have any information that there is anything in that 17 article that you can tell us now that you disagree with or 13 that you believe is not valid? 19 MR. HARVARD: I have the same objection 20 since he does not have the article before him. He looked 21 at it over a week ago. I believe he stated at the time it 22 was the first-- t-iae--he-had seen that article. I think it's 23 inappropriate to attempt to cross-examine him over the 24 telephone with that document at this time. I will 1st him 25 answer the question, but I place those objections on the KIRBY A. KENNEDY & .ASSOCIATES . ' . . (612) 922-1955. * . ^ record. Doctor, you can answer. 2 A. My answer is simple. I. am not in a scientific .activity or branch that could comment upon the accuracy and 4 correctness of Dr. Danger's article. 5 MR. BAD".AT3Oil: That's all I need. Thanh you. 7 HR. THORNSJO: Bill, before you do a j redirect, I an the attorney for Celotex in Carey, Canada. 9 10 CROSS-EXAMINATION 11 BY MR. THORNSJO: 12 .Q. Doctor, good afternoon. 13 MR. HARVARD: He doesn't much lika you, 14 Dals. . ' , . ,. ... 15 BY MR. TIIORKSJO; ' 13 Q. Good afternoon, Doctor. 17 A. Yes. 1C Q * Doctor, I just have one question. Are you 19 familiar with a concept or a. hypothesis known as the 20 Stanton hypothesis? 21 A. Never heard of it. 22 ________ MR. THORNSJO: Thank you. Doctor. 23 ' 24 / - U I1R. HARVARD: Anybody else? MR. POLK: 3ill, I am not going to have 25 anything further today, but it is my understanding from KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES (612) 922-1955 ' /Vi. : ;; lc.st Friday that we ware going to complete this part of the deposition so as to afford Union Carbide the opportunity to ither direct or rehabilitate Dr. Dernehl. I am not waiving any right to further discovery of Dr. Dernehl. I want to make that clear on the record. MR. HARVARD: You have made that statement, Mike. I will place a brief statement on the record that the reason I requested the deposition be continued until today was not to attempt to rehabilitate or do anything else with Dr. Dernehl other than to ask him those questions which I find Union Carbide wanted asked and answered by Dr. Dernehl on the record. I would like to at least bring the end of -- at the end of your questioning bring this deposition to a close and to the extent Federal , Rules, State's Court Rules or rules of any other Court permits further inquiry of Dr. Dernehl on any subject then we will take up the matter of that discovery when it's requested. MR. POLK: That's fine. - REDIRECT EXAMINATION " 3Y MR. HARVARD: Q* Let me go ahead. I will be real quick with this redirect. Doctor, again, I am Dill Harvard. 1 represent,Union Carbide along with other attorneys in this KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES ' (612) 922-19f>5 case. On cross-examination by Mr. Brownson a rmommaennit: ago he asked you about asbestos toxicology reports. Do you recall that? A .X Yes. Q. With respect to asbestos toxicology reports, which were prepared by Union Carbide Corporation, were thev required or mandated by any agency of the Federal or Stats government that you recall? A. Mot at that time. Q. Were they required or Union Carbide to provide those to customers before customers would enter into business relationships with Union Carbide, if you know"* A. Not that I know of. . Q. Were these asbestos toxicology reports, as v/ell as toxicology reports on hundreds of other chemicals, marked by Union Carbide provided to the customer as a service to thosa customers, if you know? A. Yes, they were. ' Q. At your last deposition you were asked about dust studies which may or may not have been accomplished by Union Carbide personnel at customer plant job sites'. Do you recall those questions? A. Not too wo11. Q. Do you recall the hypothetical which- Mr. '* . \ 3rownson.asked a few minutes ago about what if something ' ' . ;** ` KIR3Y A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES . ' (612) 922-1955 ;! ' -. .- . . 1 hud happened whers Union Carbide did do such studies at a 2 Conwed'plant? 3 . A. Yes, I recall these. 4 Q. ,7as Union Carbide Corporation required, to the 5 best of your knowledge, by any Federal or State government 6 or mandated by those governments to perform any dust 7 studies at customer job site locations? 3 A. They were not. 9 Q. To the extent that Union Carbide may have 10 performed any such studies, were they done, to your 11 knowledge, as a courtesy or a service to those customers7 12 MR. SROViidSONs Well, I am going to have 13 to object to that as a hypothetical, to follow form here. 14 ' MR. HARVARD: Sure. 15 3Y MR. HARVARD: 16 ` 3. Answer if you can, Doctor. Let me ask the 17 question differently. Do you know whether Union Carbide in 13 fact provided such dust study services to any customers? 19 A. I do not know' that they ever did. 20 Q. So you cannot comment positively, negatively 21 or any direction on such a program, is that correct? 22 A. That is correct. 23 Q. Doctor, with respect to Calridia asbestos 24 fibers, what did you recall was generally the length of the ` 25 fibers which you recall as being Calridia asbestos? % KIRBY A. KENNEDY * .ASSOCIATES " (612) 922-1955^.: ; ^ ^ , . A. Five microns or less. Q. You answered'Mr. Brownson's question a movement ago that in your opinion if Cairidia was less than five microns in length it should still be considered by you -O be asbestos, is that correct"3 7 a 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 13 19 20 21 22 3 24 25 A. That's correct. Q* In that regard, Doctor, while you may still consider it to be asbestos, because of the unique short fiber nature of the Calridia asbestos, do you have an opinion as to whether it may cause different reactions in an individual's body if it was inhaled by someone from other long fibered asbestos? A. Yes. Q. And what opinion would that be? A. 11, the evidence that we have is that, dumber 1, the short fiber material is cleared from the lungs more rapidly than is the long fibered material; in other words, the particles are small enough that they are readily moved out of the iung by the cilius of the - respiratory tract. Furthermore, the very fact that the material is short fiber, and not only short fiber tut a very small diameter, gives it quite different characteristics of the longer stiffar types of asbestos that we generally express, that long fibered material. Q. Doctor, does the fact that you still consider N> ; , ' " KIRBY A. KENNEDY & .ASSOCIATES . ~ ' (612) 922-1955 '. 1 vaiiurid of zive or less than five microns in length to still be asbestos, does that fact change any of the responses that you gave to me earlier on direct examination when I questioned you about the capacity of Calridia asbsstos to your knowledge to cause such diseases as lung 6 cancer or mesothelioma? 7 MR. POLK: I will object to the form of s that question as being overly broad and vague and compound. 9 MR. BROVJIiSOH: I also object to it. 10 BY MR. HARVARD: 11 Q. If you can answer it, Doctor, please answer it. 12 1 think tne question is best answered by the 13 simple statement that asbestos is a chemical entity. It 14 doesn't-make any difference whether it's three microns, 15 three-tenths of a micron or 20 microns long, it's still the 16 same chemical entity and it's still in that regard asbestos. 17 Q. Doctor, you are now how old? 18 A. 75. 19 Q. You have been cross-examined today as well as 20 at your previous deposition about a number of events which 21 occurred as far back as 40 to 41 years ago covering-your 22 time with Union Carbide, is that correct? 23 A. 40 or 41. 24 Q. Doctor, in a number of your responsesto 25 questions you stated that you could not recall or you did* * ' i. - *% . KIRBY A. KEtINEDY & ASSOCIATES (612) 922-1955- 1 iiot recall certain things, certain incidences, is that right? A. Yes, it is. . 4 - Is that in some part duo to the passage of 5 wime which nas occurred since the events on which you wer.^ j cross-examined? 7 A. Lndouotedly. can't remember everything that 8 happened. ` 3 iiR. HAVARD: Doctor, thank you very much. 10 Somebody may have a few additional followup questions, but 11 I don't at this time. 12 13 14 BY MR. POLK: R'5CDO33-2XAI11NAT ION .. ' 15 Q. I have three followup questions. Doctor, this 16 is-Mike Polk representing the Plaintiff again. Because of 17 the long passage of time, which you were just asked about 18 by Mr. Harvard, would ycu agree with me that the documents 13 that were drafted and written at earlier times, such as in 20 the 1960`s, would necessarily be more reliable than your 21 memory? . 22 i-iR. HARVARD: Object to the form of the 23 question because there.is no context in which that is 24 placed. I think it's an open-ended question and I -think 25 it's one incapable of answering as asked. Doctor, if you ~ ' KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES ' ^ * - ' (612) 922-1955; ' ' 1 can answer the. question, please answer it. 2 A. Well, I would say that the written word would be acre reliable than ay memory at the present time. C. Thank you, Doctor. One other question, Doctor, 6 7 3 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 l 17 13 19 20 21 22 25 24 25 '.men was the first time that you understood that cigarette smoking could be hazardous to a persons's health? i%m . Q. 1 would guess probably in the '30s. And, Doctor, do you have a recollection as to whether or not the government ever required a warning to be placed on packages of cigarettes? A. Yes. Q. Do you recall, sir, when that was? A. Mo, I don't. Q. Mow, do you have any information that.would indicate to you that the manufacturers of cigarettes had reason to know that cigarettes could be a health hazard prior to the time that the government required warnings on cigarette packages? . A. I am sorry, that's out of my realm of expertise, 1 can't answer that. MR. POLK: That's all I have. Thank you very much, Doctor. MR. LAURA: Mike, before we go we talked about this, why don't you pass a copy of that document that you read from over to Bruce? KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES (612) 922-1955; 1 !?v. JOiJEO: 2 ifore we conclude, we also 2 need to clarify v;:iat-v/e" are going to do with Exhibit 49, 3 chc signed or the unsigr.ad version. . 4 i'IR. x.ARVARD: Anthony is walking out now with the signed copy which he is faxing you all. o Ihl. HARVARD: I will give it to Kirby. 7 . :iR. POLK: That's fine by ne, and I ' 3 appreciate that. Bill, maybe you can give me an 9 explanation in written letter or something as to what ycur 10 position is on the signed and unsigned copy? 11 MR. HARVARD: I can tell you right now. 12 I have letters and files from different companies as well J.> as in my. own files where'.1 have a copy of the unsigned 14 office copy as well as the signed copy that was sent cu'; 15 ' and received by somebody. My office practice is we make 16 copies of the letters and stick them in the file before 17 they are signed but, you know, that's -- I think that's 13 1ikaly what happened here but that's just a guess on my 10 pirt. I don't know what else it was that Union Carbide c'id 20 or how they do their business, but I know that's how the 21 U.C. I.'avy did it. That's where I learned my administration 22 skills. 23 THE 'WITNESS: In the Carbide operation 24 the signed copies were received by somebody, the fils copies were not signed. KIRBY A. KENNEDY &. ASSOCIATES fS12 ) 922-1955 MR. JONES: 3efor2 we go, Bill, woul J you advise the Doctor about reading and signing? -I... HARVARD: Doctor, you have the right to read the deposition to see if it is in fact an accurate reproduction of what we have said here between us. Me would like for you to review that deposition. I know it nay be difficult for you to read it because of the length that may be involved. Could the parties agree that Dr. Dernehl could perhaps sit down with someone and read it out loud to him? I would like for you to review the deposition Doctor. THil '.ilTNSSS: If they send me the deposition I would be happy to go ahead and read it and then indicate whatever changes I think need to be made in it and sign it in the presence of a notary. MR. HAVARD: Ua would request that Dr. Dernehl do read and sign. Dr. Dernehl, any changes which you note which should be made should reflect that there were incorrect -- that the thing was incorrectly writtendown, not that you would like to change that answer. THE WITNESS* I understand. One other thing, hew long do I have to do this? MR. JONES: Thirty days from the time that you get the copy. Vis will make clear in the transmittal letter when you have to have it back. KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES (612) 922-1955 / - / M 'r TJ** i HH. JONES: Are we adjourned then' 2 MR. MARVARD: Yes. j 4 5 ci 7 3 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 13 17 18 19 20 21 22 22 24 25 KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES (612) 922-1955 ^ 1 ehrysccilc or, excuse tig, short fiber Calridia asbestos and the disease process known as mesothelioma? ' MR. POLK: 3a.no objection as previously noted. 3Y HR. HARVARD: Q. Did you have such an opinion, Doctor? 7 A. Yes, I did. 8 Q. What was your opinion? 9 A. I knew of no such association. 10 Q. Doctor, at the tine you retired from Union 11 Carbide Corporation in 1979 where were you working 12 physically? A. New York. 14 Q. Were the files which you maintained in your 15 various aspects asassociate medical director there with 16 you in New York? 17 A. Yes, they were. 13 Q. When you left that employment in 1979 do you 19 have any personal knowledge sls to where the files which you 20 hud maintained were sent? 21 a . My information was that they were boxed and 22 sent down to-West Char-133ton, West Virginia. ' 23 MR. HARVARD: Thank you, Doctor. Next 24 witness. 25 ` MR. POLK: Thank you. Bill. .... KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES **.. (612) 922-1955 r ?< 1 2 -TATE OF MINNESOTA ' >) ) SS. COUNTY OF HENNEPIN ) 3 4 C-"?iTtr3e knOWn that 1 t00k th2 disposition of CARL U. 30ip'-ci-'n3-r?iLSi`ldd, M'ilisis-ouri; ' a`,d 15tn dayS itarch I, at 3 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 th, Countv^f WaS then and th'5re a Notary P ^ l i c in and for t " Count/ of J -nnepin, otate of Minnesota, and that by virtue thereof, I was duly authorized to administer an Jawli| . . .ha. the witness before testifying was by me firs* nuly sworn to testify the whole truth and nothing but the truth relative to said cause; . ^ *hat the testimony of said witness was recorded in oi.eno.ype by myself and transcribed into typewriting under direction, and that the deposition is a true record of the testimony given by the witness to the best of my ability; . That I am not related to any of the parties hereto nor interested in the outcome of the action; .. That the reading and signing of the deposition by the witness wasexecuted asevidencedby the precedincr page; J * y That NoticeofFiling waswaived. WITNESS MY h a n d AND s e a l this 17th day of March, 1?39. . ' Kirby A. Kennedy Court Reporter ` . . KIR3Y A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES ' (612) 922-1955 peiC- r.cssr* 3"- v. 7 Page* . . H. C. U " Chricai Hygiene Fellowship PELLOS INSTITI*!! Carnegie-Mellon University fiiidria^^sbeetoe^ResinjSrade^RC^^I^ Tracheal Insufflation of Rat Lune with Interpretador, of Pathology after 30. 60. 90 and 180 Day Editor: C. ?. Carpenter Contributor: D. L. Geary, Jr., R. Kinkead, R. C. Myera, D. J. Kachreiner For: UNION CARBIDE CORPORATION, Chemical and Plastic Operation Division ' Saoel ' . ...... A 500-gram ample of Resin Crade RC 244 CCC Calidria Asbestos was received 11-30-70, from King City, California, pursuant to arrangements cade by Paul McDaniel of the New York Office. The eacple was identified by the Checical_Hygiene Fellowship 33-251. Tracheal Insufflation A 12 (W/V) suspension of the RG 24* sample was prepared in 0.852 saline. All needles, syringes and suspensions were sterilized prior to use* Either 1 cl or 0.5 cl amounts of the sterile 12 suspension were injected into the rat lung through the trachea, exposed by blunt dissection, after a cidline cervical incision. Following injection of these 200 to 300 gram, male albino, Harlan Wistar rats the incisions were closed with Michael wound clamps until healing ensued. A total of 13 rats were dosed with 1 ml and 15 with 0.5 ml of the 12 suspension while 11 control rats received 1 ml of sterile 0.852 NaCl, Three rat* from each asbestos dosed group and 2 controls were killed for histopstholog.c examination of the lung after intervals of 30, 60 and 90 days which laft groups of A, 6 and 5 rats on the 1 ml, 0,5 ml asbestos and control for the 180 day sacrifice. e - Summary of Microscopic Pathology Found 30. 60,. 90 and 180 Days -Followint Tracheal Insufflation of Rats The 30-day pathology was marked by the presence of granulation tissue w *th thickening of the-structural elements of the lung (stroma) ano ths accuculation of giant cells often associated,.with foreign bodies. u JLo?s7 L u J i _ D E P 9.EXH.iL2 . 1 / ' S l s i _____ KIRBY A. KENNEDY COURT REPORTER c c rcc* * After 60 d*y* one **t on eh* 0*5 ml dotage level had* inflaraation tad in .growth of connective tiseuc which blocked e terminal bronchu*. Two of 3 rate on both the 1.0 and 0.5 ml dotage level had ateleetaeia (collapse) of one or more lobes of the lung. Fibretic foreign body nodules were present is all cates. After 90 daya there was chronic foreign body pneumonia is 2 of 3 rats at both dotage levels, fibrotie foreign nodules in 3 of 3 end emphysema in 2 of 3. Chronic inflammatory cell foci and atelectasis were present. Bronchioles were dilated lr. 2 of 3 rats on both dosage levels and all but one on both dosage levels had tome lung hemorrhage. . The final 180 day sacrifice revealed interstitial pneumonia in 4 ratt on the 0.5 ml dote. This is a chronic fora of pneumonia of interstitial tissue with decrease of the normal lung tissue, Ateleetasls was present in the 6 rats on 1 ml end os 1 rat os the 0.5 ml dose of asbestos with the 5 controls normal. Fibrotie foreign body tissue was present in all dosed lungs with none in the controls, Fink hyalin material was found in 2 of 4 lungs from rats on the 1 ml dose while in 3 of 4 there was a bluish homogeneous material evident. . Is essence, a total of 10 of 13 rats on the 1 ml dose and. 12 of 35 on the 0.5 ml dose had fibrotie foreign body nodules or tissue. There were 3 cases of emphysema on the high dose and A on the lov dose and 1 in the control, Ateleetasls (essentially collapse of lung alveoli) was present in 9 rats on 1 ml and 6 on 0.5 ml of asbestos with none reported in the controls. Is general, because of the over whelming preponderance of effect in the asbestos dosed lungs versus the controls, we have sufficient evidence of damage to warn us to do our best to prevent inhalation of ecscentrations of asbestos la excess of the Threshold Limit Value proposed for 1970, (T'.-.reshold Limit Values of Airborne Contaminan ts and Intended Changes." Adopted by ACCIH for 1970. American Conference of Governmental Hygienists, 1014 Broadway, Cincinnati, Ohio 45202). S u n a r y Tables for each of the four sacrifices are included. Detailed pathology reports on each animal are available and eopies can be furnished if the need for them arises. A literature review prepared in connection with another request for information is attached although not requested. Axknovledigents^ Inhalation Studies - p * . j - * * * e -- ' I Typed: September 7, 1971 - md Charles F. Carpenper, Fh.D. Administrative Fellow Daniel L. Geary, Jr., M.Ed. Research Associate Edwin R. Kinksad, B.S. Fellow Roy C. Myers, B.S. Research Assistant Donald J. Kaehrelner, B.S. Research Assistant Tracheal Insufflation to Rati Sacrificed 30 Devs A^ter Dosing TOTAL HUMBER EXAMINED CROSSLY: LUNG: Numoer Examined Pneumonia Hemorrhage Pleural adhesions Stromal thickening Foam eell accumulations Granulation tissue foci Multlnucleatad giant cells Abscess bronchopneumonia Found cell accumulations TRACHEA: Humber Examined Chronic traeheltis Ml of ir so lurien ,1 0.5 0.0 3 3 2 (M) 3 3 (C) 3 3 0 (C)- 1 0 0 (C) 1 2 0 (M) 3 2 0 00 3 2 0 (M) 3 3 0 00 3 2 0 00 0 1 0 . 00 0 0 1 00 3 3 2 00 0 . 0 1 The folloving tissues vere examined microscopically on all ;animals : Lung, Liver, Kidney, Heart, Spleen, Adrenal, Thyroid , Parathyroid , Trachea and Esophagus, C Cross M Microscopic Table 34-20 Traeheal 'insufflation to Rats Sacrificed 60 Davs After Dosing - TOTAL HUMBER EXAMINED CROSSLY: LUHGt Humber Examined 00 Hemorrhage . Pneumonia (C) . (C) Atelectasis - . (C) Edema (C) Hemorrhage 00 Atelectasis 00 Flbrotlc foreign body nodules 00 Bronehiolltla fibrosa obliterans 00 KIDNEY: Humber Examined------ (M) Round cell accumulations (M) HEART: Number Examined 00 Focal myocarditis 00 MUSCLE: Humber Examined 00 Furulent mass (C) Large suppurative process, striated muscle (M) Ml of IT Solution 1 0.5 0.0 3 3 2 3 3 2 0 0 1 3 3 0 0 2 0 1 2 0 1 0 0 2 2 0 3 3 0 0 1 0 3 3 2 1 0 0 3 3 2 0 1 0 1 0 0 1 0 0 1 - " The following tiaauea were examined mieroacopically on all animals. Lung, Liver. Kidneyr~iie*rt, Spleen, Adrenal, Thyroid, Parathyroid, Trachea and Esophagus. C - Cross M - Microscopic ________ c .r.fct11' ;trc TCTAL SUNDER EXAMINED CROSSLY: LUNG: Number Examined Pleural adhesions Hemorrhage Edema ' Pneumonia Chronic fcreign body pneumonia Tibrotie foreign body nodules Esphysems Chronic inflammatory cell foci Round cell foci Atelectasis Bronchiectasis Stromal thickening " Hemorrhage Inhaled blood * KIDNEY: Number Exemined Hydronephrosis Hydronephroeie Round cell focua TRACHEA: Number Examined " "Chronic tracheitis H EART: Number Examined "Kyxoid change, interatitium Th. foil!, tl... Liver, Kidney, Heart, S * Esophagus* C - Croaa 3 3 2 00 3 3 2 (C) 0 2 0 (G) 0 2 0 <G> 3. 3 0 (G) 3 3 0 CO 2 2 0 (M) 3 3 0 <M) 2 2 0 00 3 3 0 (M) 0 1 1 00 3 3 0 00 2 2 0 0 0 00 1 2 0 0(M0) 03 1 0 0(C0) 03 03 31 00 0 0 1 (M) 0 1 0 00 ` 3 3 3 00 2 1 2 00 3 3 3 00 0 ' 1 0 .nd h Microscopic n r v c labi* 31-22 Tracheal Insufflation e Rati Sacrificai 180 Dava After Dosing TOTAL SUMES?. EXAMINED CROSSLY; . LUNG : Number Examinee Edema Pneumonia Aceleecaaia ' Esphyeeaa Esphyaema Aeeleetaaif Inhalacin pneumonia Inceracicial pneumonia Abseesa bronchopneumonia Suppurative brenchiectaaia Acute bronchitia Lymphoid cell aecuaulationa Foam cell accumulations Fibrotic foreign body tisaue Granulation tissue foci Pink hyalin material Bluish homogeneous material Numerous mononuclear cells Mucoid infiltration Proliferation bronchiole epithelium LIVER: Number Examined Bile duet proliferation Round cell feel KIDNEY:. Number Examined Hydronephrosis Sand calculi * H y d ro n e p h ro s is Sand c a lc u li D ila te d tubules Pink casts Interstitial nephritis Cellular infiltration Slight tubular regeneration Moderate tubular regeneration TRACHEA: Number Examined11-- - Acute tracheitis Chronic tracheitis (K) (C) ' (G) (C) <C) 00 00 (M) <M) 00 00 0000 (M) 00 00 00 60 00 00 00 (M) 00 O) 00 (C) (C) 00 00 00 00 00 00' 00 <M> 00 (M) (M) Ml 1 I 1 2 A 2 0 1 A 1 0 0 1 0 3 2 A 0 2 3 1 2 0 A 0 1. A . 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 A 1 0 ! IT Solusion 0.5 0.0 6 5 6 5 0 1 5 1 0 1 0 1 2 1 1 0 0 0 A 0 . 0 0 0 0 1 6 . 1 0 1 0 0 0 6 2 0 1 0 1 0 . 3 '. 0 0 0 0 0 0 1 5 1 0 6 5 1 0 1 0 1 0 1 0 2 2 2 1 % 0 1 0 1 3 0 1 6 3 0 0 A 0 The following tissues were examined microscopically on all animals: S ^ H n e y a , Heart. Spleen. Adrenal. Thyroid. Parathyroid. Trachea and Esophagus C - Cross H Microscopic c A*pee-or Xddingley, C. C. * Asbestos Duet and Its Measureaent. < .err.: Ann, Occ u p . Hv r . t 73 (1966). Anon. Occupational Hazards o Asbestos. CIS (International Occupational Safety and Health Information Centre.) (Abstracts on Asbestos! 1959 to 1967), Collins, I. F. Asbestos the Lethal Dust. S. Afr. Med. J. 12! 218-9,(1968). As cited in Index Kedieus, 9(08), 196E, p, 70. Committee on Hygiene Standards. Hygiene Standards for Chrysotile Asbestos Dust. Cosssittee on Hygiene Standards of the Sritish Occupational Hygiene Society. Enterline, P. E. Asbestos-Dust Exposures at Various Levels sad Mortality. Arch. Environ^, Health. 15, p. 181, (1967). Kogan, ? . M .; Svirakii, E. L . ; Belobragina, C. V. Gig. Tr. Prof...2abol. 1|, PP* J- 12 (Russ) (1969). Hygienic Charscteristics of the Dust Generated in the Production of Asbestos-containing Thermal Insulating Materials Aabeatos-Vexsieulite and Asbestos Perlite. As cited in C.A. V. 77(26), p. 253(136090y) 1970. Parazzi, Elena, et al. Cytotoxicity of Asbestos Dusts. Med. L a v 1968, 59(10), 561-76 (Eng). As cited in C.A. Vol. 7^ * i2P ` 256(6374n) (1969). Report fro a Working Croup Association of Exposure (1965). of the International Onion Against Cancer. JIhs to Asbestos Dust and Cancer. Ann. Occuo. Hvg. , p 2, Roach, S. A. Hygiene Standards for Asbestos. Ann. Occuo. Byg. 13, pp. 7-15, (1970). Selikoff, Irving J., et al. #2, p. 106/104, 1968. Asbestos Exposure, Smoking, *nd Neoplasia. JAMA, 204, Tint re11,. V., et al. A Sisple Dispenser for Generating D m : C l w j i from Standard Reference Samples of Asbestos. Ann. Occuo. Hyg. 11, PP. 273-281*1968. ' Asbestosis Balxer, J. LeRoy. Industrial Hygiene for Insulation Workers. 10, #1, (1968).. J. of Occuo.,,Med. Cross, Paul and R. T. P . deTreville. 15, p. 638 (1967). Experiaental Asbestosis. Arch. Environ. Healtn, _ p j T p dpTreville. Experimental Asbestosis. Studies on the Progres sives of* tl^ Pulmonary Fibrosis Caused by Chryaotna Duat. Arch. ^ v i r e . Health, 15, 638-649 (1967). As cited in Industrial Hygiene Digest, 32 ( 5), May 1968, 0449. June 7, 1971, Vol. 216 No. 10. Clol/2 Editorial* Asbestosia in Urban Forulationa. JAMA 196; 732* (1966). Cro, Paul, et al. Asbestos Vereua Nonasbeatoa Fibers, pp. 571-578 (1970). Arch. Environ. Health. * Holt, P. r .| J. Mille, and D. K. Voting. The Early Effects of Chryaotile Aabeacoa Dust cr. he Rat Lung. J. Pathol. & Bacserlel.. 87; 15-23 (1964). >iviieniii<andrcSji<iiiTndj_< Karr, Villiac T Aabeacoa Exposure During Naval Veaael Overhaul. pp, 26^-268, May-June 1966, AlHAJj^, (3), Thomson, J. G., and V, M. Gravea. Pathol. 81: 658 (1966). Aabeacoa aa an Urban Air Contaminant. Arch. Westlake, George E., Harlan J. Spjut, and Harilyn K. Smith. Penetration of Colonic Muceaa by Aabeacoa Farciclea. An Electron Microscopic Scudy in Rata Fed Aabeacoa Duat, lab^^lnvea_cia^on, 2029 (1965). Analytical Crable, John V. Quantitative Determination of Chryaotile, Aaooite and Crocidelite by X-ray Diffraction. A1HA, Vol. 27 (#3), May-June, 1966 - p. 293-298. Crable, John V., and Marta J. Knott. Application of X-ray r*f*r*c*| " (fit Determination of Chryaotile in Bulk or Settled Dust Samples. AIHA, Vol. 27 ( July-Aug., 1966 - p. 383-387. Crable, John V., and Marta J. Knott. Quantitative X-Ray Diffraction Analysis of Crocidolite and Aaooite in Bulk or Settled Duat Saaplea. AIHA, Vol. 27 (f5), Sept.-Oet., 1966 - p. 669-653. Lynch, Jereaiah R., and Howard E. Ayer. Measurement of Duat Expeaura in the 7 Aabeacoa Textile Induatry. AIHA, Vol. 27 (#5), Sept.-Oct., 1966 - p. 631-637. The Method Tor Determining Aabeacoa Duat .Concentration. T h i j 1r $1.00 and may be obtained from the Aabeacoa Textile Institute, P. 0. Box 239, Pompton lakes, New Jeraey 07662. AIHA, Sept.-Oct., 1965. ' Review Tiaaue Responee to AaBeats"TRport of a Meeting by C. N. Daviea). Ann. Occup. Hyg. Vol. 13 pp. 261-265. Pergammon Praaa, 1970. c c Medical Directors A - C. U. Demehl 1 - E. Q. Hull 1 R. E. Joyner 1 - R. J. Sexton 1 - T. X. Spencer Other Distribution 1 - M. B. VerMoey 2 - N. H. Katehaa 1 - P. V. McDaniel 1 - R. R. Cueet Libraries 2 - Chemicals Division (1 set each Library) Building 701 and 770 Libraries South Charleston, Vest Virginia Project Initiator-- to distribute as you see fit. Mo eopies have been sent to others in your business or operations team, except aumaries to the R/D Directors, V.P.*a and Libraries. More copies will be furnished upon your request. Project Initiator 6 - P. V , McDaniel ** i OLLECTED 1 - T. T. Srabo 1 - T. H. Welch 1 - M. L. Zutty awn, * * 1 reports are sent to List A at aonthly intervals. List A recipients are! 1 - J. V, Murray, Jr. 1 - L. Sheehter * 1 - Plasties Division Library .1 - V. B. Ackart 1 - E. A. Barr 1 - F. V. Tauber ____ Bound Brook, M. J. 1 - Mining and Metals Library Tuxedo, N. Y. 2 - Chemicals and Plastics Division * Bldg. 701 & 770 Libraries South Charleston, V. Va. 1 - R & D Library Tarrytown, N. T. ASBESTOS TOXICOLOGY REPORT It hat been known for years chat some persona working in asbestos production were prone to develop a disabling lung disease. In tin*, this condition became known as asbestoals and was related to exposure to high concentrations of asbestos dust. With further experience, it was found that men could work with asbestos without development of lung disease if dust concentrations were kept below a certain level. a It has been generally accepted that a worker will not develop asbestosis if he is exposed to no more than 5 million particles per cubic foot of air, even if this exposure continues for his entire working lifetime. Although.no cases of asbestosis are known to have occurred when exposures have been maintained at or below this level, the ACGZH (which sets the threshold limit value (TLV) in the U. S. A.) has indicated they Intend to lower the TLV for asbestos to 2 million particles per cubic foot in an effort to increase the safety factor Incorporated in the limit. The U. S. Department of Labor has already issued a regulation under the Walsh-Healy Act placing the TLV for asbestos at 2 million particles per cubic foot for public contracts in which they have Jurisdiction. This concentration of dust la generally not visible in the average work area unless a beam of light causing a Tyndall effect is present. Usually the dust concentration suet bo from 8-10 million particles per cubic foot (MPPCF) before its presence is visible in average lighting conditions. . Several years ago, it was reported that there was an increase in the incidence of cancerous tumors, especially of the lung, associated with asbestosis. Recently there have been reports of some cancers occurring in individuals exposed to asbestos dust, but who have not developed clinical asbestosis. It is believed by most authorities that these cases have been associated with exposures significantly exceeding the Threshold Limit Value. A type of cancer named mesothelioma has been noted to be associated with asbestos exposure in recent years. These tumors, while rather few in number to date, may occur in individuals with histories of only slight . exposures, and that as much as twenty to forty years earlier. There is considerable evidence thet croeidolite is most frequently associated with * mesotheliomas. From the data available it appears that the TLV of S HPPCF may not be low enough to protect against mesothelioma. Research on the problem continues. UNION CARBIDE CORPORATION < OEPQ. BH. ------------------------- KIRBY A. KENNEDY COURT REPORTER CHEMICALS A NO PLASTICS 270 PARK AVENUE. N.Y..N.Y. 1001 * ' 4 ** ^ <r m f / Ci'.: rspcrure if tirici". rcccctr: cc; esthese- esc the etcr.scrc enes pj-iiccLic ts c vaticty c i duct" excretions. They Include closed flow systems, vet processes where possible, end sdequste exhsust ventilstion where openings In the system ere necessary. Pelletizing Is sometimes used to improve the handling characteristics of otherwise dusty materials. Where satisfactory containment to stay within the Threshold Limit Value is impractical or impossible, efficient and reliable respirators are available for the protection of the employee. A program of environmental monitoring is highly desirable to determine that Threshold Limit Values are not being exceeded. In manufacturing industries it would be desirable to know the dust concentrations where the asbestos is dumped from bags into the process. Concentrations should also be determined where dusting occurs In finishing products. While initial dust determinations should be sude at frequent Intervals, once the level has been established as satisfactory, the frequency may be extended to occasional testa to assure continuation of a satisfactory condition. . Pre-employment and periodic physical examination of workers are desirable. These should Include chest X-rays to Insure that the worker has no chest condition prior to work with asbestos and to determine that no lung changes are resulting from work with asbestos. . It is believed that the addition of asbestos at the proposed levels during the manufacture of products would be harmless to the consumer. Total dusting would have to be well in excess of any levels acceptable to the consumer for the asbestos concentrations to approach the Threshold Limit Value. In conclusion, vhlle asbestos dust in excess of the Threshold Limit Value is potentially harmful, as are many other dusts encountered In industry, it Is as readily controlled as other such dusts and It can be used safely with appropriate precautions. ' 5/8/69 Industrial Medicine And Toxicology Department Union Carbide Corporation -i Xt - ,, V .. hr. C. 2. t e t t i u Cht.e.lc&U i. ?la>tie 7*<0 Leonia Lot Atsi**, Cilif. $00^9 bee: M. B. VerXcoy - TT W. 3. mrpati'Ufc - Li. 'J. C. Farrell * LA. i'.thn KfcV*ra - Ring 'ley. 9... c-vo-ics.n :'yrir `I, i-.'O K4dl.il Sepertsianr K i: C i. I V i A: -\ V U JC f -C A .U C R . >:iSC C ITY, CA. Ulf#. lit . _ *iVi f.< rtf On'':*?'. i.'.uirtcs Asbestos bee p ra e tic& U y r.o cute to x ic ity regardless U s t m c - -fin c . The her aasotU ced w ith asbestos la , the biogenic nropcrcles c f the m aul* dust. This u su a lly l* seen eiuy -' r picloogeJ exposure aa*jted In t*r s of 15*20 years although esses ra re ly v a *l occu. in leas tine Because o f '-ho ra th e r unique R tv u c tu r* v h e re e te rie tic s ^ f.C A lid x ta A t ta s te , th e re use centers th a t i t s ig h t be u n u su a lly f i 'erojer:..- and perhaps cave**, an acute e sb estoeis. To test this .iosilbUity. Calidria Asbestos vs injected into rats *ud rabbits isstrsperitoneally using standard U r S fvbre .'w* ** * co-itm* The results of this test ehewed Cellar! Asbestos ~o o* Ught-t, . . l i W b i S u then long fibre asbestos but the 1 TM . . J | sc *s to suggest an unusual degree of hazard Foa th*a . -o^-ude that the *5> precautions to avoid breeching asbestos dust rxosr be . * , te it. C.lltoL A r t i t . J i long fibre fona . Scose people believe there ie an e e t o c U M o n between expesure to asbestos dust sad the development of luns eeucer end ase*oh3liw*e. rV j* i t BO infonce cion s*s*'diug Calidrle Asbestos -r. Ci.ta r.ap^t yet. It w a l d be prudent to ess.a chat Celidrie Asbestoe ,11 be-ve ether asbestos In this regard CUD:dp C. U. flernehl, M. D. As toelate Kedieel Director AU3 V50 I W a* * / K M . fM L H 9 __________ -Jits 1 * 9 . .. ...... KIRBY A.KENNEDY ' COURT REPORTER I ii, Ivt** tc , luter i.. mr Si' tulvn U i M i lluJu 0 ill'..! L.*r \J'~ r -- - Du.if fcu'i: Youf cuiaetUcn that wu constd! ' ol including "UK paper ? h t ti industry" owwnti p. ocx u s w a i Slci> ilectint, is well tiKto - m i 2 P* V rcvK.w the note* with X.n Snyeri*. . M ttvoh ot your icttet on toxUnU*t..U uicio* tei .tW. K . a o.-.ri.* - w j hive icvUkCb the Xwn ux*.ctpl* yu% sunt u* with Dv. C * r.tv; -M. i x ecu.it.cis t!:it the piper* "Jo mt *) *n> oritc present in.ci.t vc/. r-.^U nvoci r.rr tp they pretiiss it '- sc.'* Furthi: "Ovix pci Ui.r. it . tl-,t ir I'-.itca Sutes cxj'orler.vc thet* Uc bf:" w ir-ii t. <sc./ is-idm: t <- . i c - cu.rcr vher. the throebett Ur.ll ha Bit fc.tr erxecur.1 " Proa will publication, we have alec uoct*' the reieti ticcc < contjtiiniiue, with tho thought that proof o f *fcon< oC polycyclic tteuutlcs in Union Carbide exbe* to night bo useful re planning c.-h. traction tudies an -oalysoo for j,/i-benno<j)pyrcne by techni^uca aplay;* at tioutii Charleston. Wo will lot you know the reeulca, probably *n an appropriately written statement by to, Dernehl. Tfco siatlet of eoft p.<pete, facial and other tie.u-e. fcet bi. a re- cctrlns evhjcct with u. I"ric~rily thie ie a ef !t4J <,cnh" -* illor`' While the oeer-all etatetteniH by our IndusttiaX f4Ulcino anc ronicclugy ueeplfl should suffice -- wc have given thought to "patch teate, which, incidentally, eoel appreciably to run. would be oeuninsless t o conduct ouiti test with naner ccntulnim. VCC .tsbestoc. eince the other coarencnla Of the fomieh bear on the results. IMoce we ere coRblderinj patch tests using straight asbestos -- which, of course, would absolv* only our product, ihe other ciponinte (iotludina. ee you *now, * variety of organic eo^ounde) ef specifla furnishes would hove to be considered by the paper company, involved, Ue shall let you know our plane, ' . V ..* ' Very truly youre, V * , * *' * . ' A.K.Fcf3hl:cl . ' '-----------------------_ t c ; ). T. M ivhar>J *i. F. Ftcn^c* t . F. tltcy t v if lx a li ) \ K1RBY A. KEMNEOY . vCOUSXAEPOflfTSR------ 03 P LN ACTINOLITE* PG LN AHERA* PG LN AMOSITE* 193 3 with the fiber type called AMOSITE7 A. Not really PG LN AMOSITE* PG LN 173 20 ANDERSON* Of MEAGHER, GEER, MARKHAM, ANDERSON, ADAMSON, PG LN ANDERSON* PG LN ANPHOPHYLLITE* PG LN 173 3 ARMSTRONG* and on behalf of Defendants ARMSTRONG World Industries PG LN 186 7 186 10 137 13 187 21 187 25 195 11 195 19 220 13 221 4 221 4 221 14 235 7 235 18 ASBESTOSIS* , that asbestos could cause type fiber which could cause time believe that the disease doses that would produce to produce the disease development of the disease Calidria asbestos might cause within the report that to do with whether or not not asbestosis -- the disease indicate that the disease of have upon the development of would be-more likely to have ASBESTOSIS? A. That's ASBESTOSIS? A. At that ASBESTOSIS would not AS3EST0SIS? A. At the ASBESTOSIS before you ASBESTOSIS, it was AS3EST0SIS? A. Based ASBESTOSIS was not a ASBESTOSIS -- the disease ASBESTOSIS and lung cancer ASBESTOSIS is not a ASBESTOSIS. Q. My ASBESTOSIS. Q. Again, PG LN ATLAS* ' PG LN AUSTIN* KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES ; (612) 922-1955 . PG LN AXNESS* PG LN BAKER* ' PG LN BALANTYNE* PG LN BARTON* PG LN BECHTOLD* PG LN BERGSTROM* PG LN BIEDRON* - PG LN 203 1 BLUE* for use, large numbers of BLUE fibers -- loose PG LN BOPE* * PG LN BRAKE* PG LN BRINGEN* PG LN BROWN* ' 173 4 of Plaintiff. ROBERT D. BROWNSON, ESQUIRE, of the 174 9 Recross-Examination by Mr. BROWNSON Page 233 175 24 have with the Doctor? MR. BROWNSON: Well, this is 175 25 BROWNSON: Well, this is Bob BROWNSON. Just for the 179 22 that objection. MR. BROWNSON: I also object 188 25 as be-ing leading. MR. BROWNSON: It's leading 189 24 and lacks foundation;-- MR. BROWNSON: I further 192 2 as being leading. MR. BROWNSON: I join in the 193 25 and very suggestive. MR. BROWNSON: I join in that 199 25 206 5 the answer st'riken. . Go ahead, Doctor. MR. BROWNSON: Same objection MR. BROWNSON: Same objection 210 17 it calls for hearsay. MR. BROWNSON: I join in that 212 5 here in Minnesota. MR. BROWNSON: Conference 23.2 8 POLK: Come again? MR. BROWNSON: What Court? 212 10 Judge Littman. MR. BROWNSON: That's news to . KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES.. LN BROWN* 15 on the East Coast. MR. 21 with that procedure? MR. 13 Anybody else? MR. 15 MR. JONES: This is? MR. 15 This is? MR. BROWNSON: 18 RECR0S3-EXAMINATI0M BY MR. 19 BY MR. BRONSON: Q . Bob 22 Q. You recall I am Bob 9 characterization. MR. 14 , I believe, is good. MR. 16 MR. HARVARD: Good. BY MR. 24 form of the question. BY MR. 3 the report right now. MR. 20 *63, is that right? MR. 22 I am sorry, '67. MR. 11 at the same time. BY MR. 22 was just conducted. MR. 3 I lost it. MR. 25 of any hypotheticals. MR. 1 is noted, Bill. BY MR. 18 the question. MR. 22 a yes or no answer. BY MR. 25 to this question. BY MR. 25 assumed to be used. BY MR. 25 or L. J. LaFrance. MR. 8 very brief redirect? MR. 11 ' HARVARD: Go ahead. BY MR. 1 not to answer. MR. S him that question. BY MR. 5 Dr. Langer's article. MR. 1 On cross-examination by Mr. 25 the hypotheticals which Mr. 12 to those customers? MR. 2 less. Q. You answered Mr. 9 vague and compound. MR-. BROWNSON: So does that BROWNSON: I just want BROWNSON: I have some BROWNSON: Brownson. BROWNSON. BROWNSON: Q. Bob BROWNSON representing BROWNSON. I represent BROWNSON: Well, I think BROWNSON: The objection BROWNSON: Q. Did you BROWNSON: Q. Go ahead BROWNSON: Excuse me. BROWNSON: '67. MR. BROWNSON: A two page BROWNSON: Q. Doctor', BROWNSON: Are you going BROWNSON: Would you read BROWNSON: Objection is BROWNSON: Q. Number 1, BROWNSON: Well, I don't BROWNSON: Q. Doctor, BROWNSON: Q . Do you BROWNSON: Q. That's BROWNSON: That's all I BROWNSON: I have a BROWNSON: Q. Earlier, BROWNSON: Well, would BROWNSON: Q. Do you BROWNSON: That's all I BROWNSON a moment ago he BROWNSON asked a few BROWNSON: Well, I am BROWNSON'S question a BROWNSON: I also object LN BYRNE* LN 3YRNE* LN CALVARAS* LN 8 the attorney for Celotex in CAREY, Canada. KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES , 6 1 2 422-1 Q44 ' ' .&ft'k-* PG LN CARLSON* PG LN CARPENTER* PG LN CARPENTER* PG LN CELITE* PG LN 256 8 CELOTEX* , I am the attorney for CELOTEX in Carey, Canada. PG LN CHATSWORTH* PG LN 233 5 233 9 236 22 CHESTON* letter from Pufahl * do you know who Mr. Dear Peters'' this is to Peter Peter R. to Peter CHESTON. While you are CHESTON is of London, CHESTON of Union Carbide- PG LN 133 23 134 9 134 17 134 17 185 16 185 17 194 8 215 1 CHRYSOTILE* was a high purity short fiber ' of it, was a long fiber mind between a short fiber asbestos and a long fiber with either Canadian chrysotile asbestos or with between the short fiber between short fiber CHRYSOTILE CHRYSOTILE CHRYSOTILE CHRYSOTILE CHRYSOTILE CHRYSOTILE CHRYSOTILE CHRYSOTILE type. Q. Is type which has asbestos and a asbestos in asbestos or asbestos other such as or, excuse me, PG LN 133 19 183 22 134 11 134 25 185 12 185 18 COALINGA* sometimes referred to as the Calridia asbestos from ths in the United States. The of the-fibres found in the other than that found in the COALINGA COALINGA COALINGA COALINGA COALINGA COALINGA deposit? A. deposit? A. fiber was unique deposit which asbestos, let me deposit? A. PG LN CON3TANS* KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES : (612) 922-1955 V y* v V':' LN CONWED* . 6 r and on-behalf of Defendant CONWED Corporation. IS ..asbestos fiber to the CONWED plant in Cloquet, 19 that they ever sold any to CONWED. MR. HARVARD: 1 20 HARVARD: I an sorry, it was CONWED? THE WITNESS: ( 21 Conwed? THE WITNESS: CONWED, excuse me. BY MR. 1 25 that asbestos being sold to CONWED was sold in a open h' 12 salesperson d'aaling with the CONWED plant in Cloquet, jj 19 Bob Brownson representing CONWED. Doctor, can you h 23 am Bob Brownson. I represent CONWED. We mat last weak | 20 Carbide was in fact sent to CONWED Corporation? A. Jfj .3 conducted air sampling at the CONWED plant in 1972, jj 5 should have informed CONWED that Calridia could 25 conducted air sampling at the CONWED premises in 1972. i 1 should have informed CONWED that Calridia 13 ever did make any surveys at CONWED. Q. That's why ! 17 people would inform the CONWED people that they \ 14 air sampling at the CONWED plant in 1972 and ! 15 in 1972 and were asked by CONWED whether exposure to ; 2 did do such studies at a CONWED plant? A. Yes, jj. LN CREWSON* LN CROCIDOLITE* ' 25 with the fiber type called CROCIDOLITE? A. Not LN CRONCIDE* LN CROWELL* LN CRUSSH* LN DERNEHL* 17 deposition of CARL U. DERNEHL, M.D., taken | 14 by Mr*. Polk Page 262 DERNEHL Deposition Exhibit | 15 47 marked--- Page 198 DERNEHL Deposition Exhibit f 16 48 marked Page 204 DERNEHL Deposition Exhibit 2 of the deposition of Dr. Carl DERNEHL which was begun on 4 Union Carbide. Dr. DERNEHL is also present. j 9 , on telephone hookup. Dr. DERNEHL, you were 3 precludes us from calling Dr. DERNEHL as a witness at 1 attempted to disqualify Dr. DERNEHL as an expert in 5 document? (At this time DERNEHL Deposition Exhibit 23 document? (At this time DERNEHL Deposition Exhibit KIRBY A. KENNEDY A ASSOCIATES LN DERNEHL* 17 bears a typed name of "C. U. DERNEHL, M.D., Associate 24 , I have. (At this time DERNEHL Deposition Exhibit 7 signature line for C. U. DERNEHL a signature which 23 . BY MR. POLKs Q. Dr. DERNEHL, could you take a 5 you sent us with Dr. Carl DERNEHL. He counsels 22 written statement by Dr. DERNEHL." My question to 5 has previously been marked as DERNEHL Deposition Exhibit 19 him nor am I av/are that Dr. DERNEHL has ever seen Dr. 22 he published. Absent Dr. DERNEHL having an 2 agree with me, Bill, that Dr. DERNEHL did, we spent 3 direct or rehabilitate Dr. DERNEHL. I am not waiving 4 to further discovery of Dr. DERNEHL. 1 want to make 10 or do anything else with Dr. DERNEHL other than to ask 12 asked and answered by Dr. DERNEHL on the record. I 16 further inquiry of Dr. DERNEHL on any subject 9 the parties agree that Dr. DERNEHL could perhaps sit 17 We would request that Dr. DERNEHL do read and sign. 17 do read and sign. Dr. DERNEHL, any changes which 1 MR. HARVARD: Yes. CARL U. DERNEHL, M.D. I, CARL 3 DERNEHL, M.D. I, CARL U. DERNEHL, M.D., do hereby 4 the deposition of CARL U. DERNEHL, M.D., on the 10th LN DIBARTOLOMEO* LN DICKSON* LN DOMKE* LN EDMUND* LN ENGLANDER* LN ENGLISH* LN EXHIBIT-* 14 Page 262 Dernehl Deposition EXHIBIT 47 marked Page 15 Page 198 Dernehl Deposition EXHIBIT 48 marked Page 16 Page 204 Dernehl Deposition EXHIBIT 49 marked Page 25 as Union Carbide Corporation EXHIBIT A, and it is 5 this time DERNEHL Dposition EXHIBIT 47 was marked 10 an opportunity to look now at EXHIBIT 47 to this 19 , which has been marked as EXHIBIT 47 to this KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES t * ** a am a 0 *. * * ' - :i ' w . _ ^ LN EXHIBIT* 3 the study that's reflected as EXHIBIT 47 be done? A. 14 Q. Doctor, with respect to EXHIBIT Humber 47-, have 15 an opportunity to review that EXHI3IT? .A. Yes, I 15 the Court Reporter to mark as EXHIBIT Number 43 to this 23 this time DERNEHL Deposition EXHIBIT 43 was marked 19 Report, that's been marked as EXHIBIT 43, is one that 13 at the bottom of Page 1 of EXHIBIT 43 and ask you to 13 now to mark as Defendant's EXHIBIT 49, which is 24 this time DERNEHL Deposition EXHIBIT 49 was marked 2 has been marked as Deposition EXHIBIT 49, that is to say 4 there, the prior deposition EXHIBITS' MR. HARVARD: ii! 6 per se. I have a number of EXHIBITS here before me, 10 see. It would be Deposition EXHIBIT 32. MR. 11 MR. POLK: Q. Doctor, the EXHIBIT, Deposition 11 , the exhibit. Deposition EXHIBIT 32 that you have 6 . Referring once again to EXHIBIT Number 32, that's 21 , again referring to that same EXHI3IT, you will see in 12 the first paragraph of that EXHIBIT, you will see that 2 think has now been marked as EXHIBIT 49, do you see 3 , to what's been marked as EXHIBIT 48, which is the 15 ask that we pull out. It was EXHIBIT 33, the letter of If 6 marked as Dernehl Deposition EXHIBIT 33, you make the 2 what v;e are going to do with EXHIBIT 49, the signed or LN FOURDRINIER* li; FREHSE* 5 Arthur A. 6 A. Frehse, and Helen J. FREHSE, and Helen J. FREHSE, husband and wife, LN FRI* 9 believe you had lunch with my FRIEND here, Mr. Laura? 1 is my understanding from last FRIDAY that we were going LN GAFFNEY* LIT GASKET*.. LN GENDRIV* KIRBY A. KENNEDY Sc ASSOCIATES v... (612) 922-1955 ` - - . . PG LH GIAM3RUN0* PG LU GLIDDEN* PG LN GREEN1IALGH* PG LN GROGAN* PG LH GUYER* PG LN GUYER* PG LN 218 15 221 2 230 7 230 14 230 21 231 13 242 17 243 5 HALL* . memorandum written by Thomas of the two pages of Dr. the letter now that Dr. producing report was Dr. see in Paragraph 2 that Dr. ,you will see that Dr. letter of June 7, 1967 to Dr. letter of June 7, 1957 to Dr. HALL. MR. HARVARD: HALL* S letter dated HALL wrote? A. Yes. HALL referring to? A. ' HALL is suggesting that he HALL refers to several HALL from yourself. HALL, which has previously PG LN HALLA* PG LN HAMMOND* PG LH HANSON* ' - PG LN HARAYDA* PG LN HAUN* PG LN HELLA* PG LN HELOCK* KIR3Y A. KEHNSDY & -ASSOCIATES (612) 922-1955 PG LH HEN3HAW* PG LH HILL* ?G LH HIRSCHRN* PG LH HOLLOifAY* PG LN H O M E S * PG LN HOOKER* PG LN HOROCKA* PG LN HULL* PG LN INGALLS* ;PG LN JENKINS* PG LN JEROME* PG LN JOHNS-ilANVILLE* PG LN JOHNSON* PG LN JOYNER* PG LN JUNTTI*. PG LN KANELL* KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES PG LN KCAL* PG LN 173 9 KEENE* Inc., GAF Corporation, KEENE Corporation, PG LN KENDALL* I PG LN KENDALL* I* i l PG LN KETCHAM* PG LN KETCHUM* PG LN KING* 183 14 mined by Union Carbide at KING City and also 183 15 City and also processed at KING City. Q. Is King 183 16 at King City. Q. Is KING City in California,- % ( 194 19 194 25 X-rays which were taken at work for Union Carbide at the KING City, California, of KING City facility where ' 195 16 and milling asbestos at the KING City facility, did 196 5 who were monitored at the KING City facility had 226 13 226 16 Q. On your plant visits to plant visit that you made to KING City, California? KING City, California was 227 3 from the inception of the KING City mill? A. I PG LN KING* PG LN KINKEAD* PG LN KOZACIK* PG LN KOZACIK* PG LN KilOOL* c PG LN LAFRANCE* ' H 253 24 B. W. McDaniel or L. J. LAFRANCE. . MR * KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES . . V - (612) 922-1955 " - PG LN l a m i n a r * PG LN 204 11 204 13 204 21 204 23 205 7 LANE* ' of than. Sometimes Dr. than I was. Q. Was Dr. was drafted personally by Dr. was drafted personally by Dr. reports, did you and Dr. LANE was involved, this LANE more active than you LANS, if you know? A. LANS with consultation on LANS report only those PG LN 196 13 254 13 254 15 254 13 254 20 254 21 255 3 255 10 256 4 LANGER* asked about a study by a Dr. had asked you about Dr. you sit here today, that Dr. The Doctor doesn't have Dr. Dr. Dernehl has ever seen Dr. a copy of the conclusions Dr. doing it, he did read the I showed you about Dr. and correctness of Dr. LANGER dealing with LANGER'S article that vie LANGER'S research on LANGER'S research in front LANGER'S research, nor'in LANGER reached in the LANGER article last week, LANGER'S study of the LANGER'S article. MR. PG LN LEE* PG LN LEE* PG LN LENANDEE* PG LN LUDV7IG* PG LN 212 3 MANISTO* ' - call with the Court on the MANISTO case at 3:00 here PG LN MANKA* PG LN MANKO* > PG LN MARSH* KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES (612) 922-1955 PG LN MARTIN* 21G 2 that I wrote to a Mr. C. E. MARTIN. Q. Do you PG LN MCCARTHY* PG LN MCCUN2* PG LN MCCUNNEY* PG LN 253 23 MCDANIEL* I would assume either B. W. ` MCDANIEL or L. J. LaFrance PG LN MCGARY* PG LN MCGUILLIVRAY* PG LN MCJILTON* PG LN MCLEAN* ' PG LN MCNEIL* PG LN MEDFORD* . PG LN 197 15 199 8 199 16 199 17 199 20 MELLON* ' which was accomplished at the Carbide Corporation at the a July 1966 report from the and had conducted at the having been conducted at the ' MELLON MELLON MELLON MELLON MELLON . Institute in Institute? A. Institute which is Institute. As you Institute at Union PG LN 191 1 191 7 191 12 191 24 192 14 192 16 MESOTHELIOMA* a medical condition called fiber Calidria asbestos and findings with respect to fiber Calidria asbestos and fiber Calidria asbestos and had been any work done with MESOTHELIOMA. Do you MESOTHELIOMA? A . . I was MESOTHELIOMA. Do you MESOTHELIOMA at that point 'MESOTHELIOMA? A. I MESOTHELIOMA resulting " KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES . , - (612) 922-1955/ / , Vi LN MESOTHELIOMA* 20 other long fiber asbestos and MESOTHELIOMA? A. Any 22a hhaaddbebeenendeemsotnabsltirsahteedd bbeettwweeeenn MMEESSOOTTHHEELLIIOOMMAA aanndd aenxyposure 17 other than asbestos causes MESOTHELIOMA' A. Thera 13 A. There have been cases of MESOTHELIOMA reported in 20 Q. Are there also cases of MESOTHELIOMA that you have 3 . A. The early history of MESOTHELIOMA among 3 such as Calidria and MESOTHELIOMA? A. I 15 literature, exactly how MESOTHELIOMA is caused? 11 question of whether cancer or MESOTHELIOMA tumors 20 fiber Calridia asbestos and MESOTHELIOMA? A. I 13 fibered Calridia asbestos and MESOTHELIOMA? Just d*id 2 the disease process known as MESOTHELIOMA? MR. 6 of lung cancer and MESOTHELIOMA. There is 17 asbestos may very well cause MESOTHELIOMA? A. No. 18 , as of March 31, 1970 that MESOTHELIOMA could be 3 31, 1970 did you believe that MESOTHELIOMA could be 16 low enough to protect against MESOTHELIOMA.1 Do you 12 value to prevent against MESOTHELIOMA? A. No, I 10 for the prevention of MESOTHELIOMA. I have no 18 would be effective to prevent MESOTHELIOMA' MR. 10 limit value would prevent MESOTHELIOMA? A. 19 per cubic foot would prevent MESOTHELIOMA? A. No, I 24 per cubic foot would prevent MESOTHELIOMA? MR. . 8 limit value would prevent MESOTHELIOMA? MR. 4 that include the hazard of MESOTHELIOMA as of August 5 as of August of 1972? A. MESOTHELIOMA must have 15 that Calridia could Cause MESOTHELIOMA? MR. 10 Calridia asbestos would cause MESOTHELIOMA so there is 6 Calridia .could possibly cause MESOTHELIOMA? MR. 13 Calridia asbestos could cause MESOTHELIOMA. Q. So 3 li-nit value could cause MESOTHELIOMA? MR. 6 diseases as lung cancer or MESOTHELIOMA? MR. LN MILLIPORE* LN MONTEROTTI* LN M0STR0M* LN MUHLE* KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES (612) 922-1955 .. PG LN MUMPTON* PG LN MURRAY* PG LiJ MYERS* PG LN NALE* PG LN NAUMANN* PG LN NEENAH* PG LN NESS* PG LN NIOSH PG LN NORRIS* PG LN ' PADUCAH* PG LN PALKIE* PG LN PALMER* PG LN PANAK* PG LN PATTERSON* PG LN PCM* PG LN PEELE* - KIRBY A. KENNEDY &. ASSOCIATES. ;..:;; PG LN PERLITE* . PG LN PETERSON* ?G LN POZZANI* PG LN PROSE* PG LN RAZIN3KI* PG LN REICHAPJD* PG LN RHODES* PG LN RINNE* PG LN ROHL* PG LN- ROSEN* ' PG LN SATTER* . PG LN SATTER* PG LN 237 2 SAYERS* to review the note3 with Ian SAYERS. PG LN SCHIEFER* ' PG LN SCHWAHH* . PG LN SCIIWAHN* , . . 'Apropos of ' * . .. KIRBY A. KENNEDY 6 ASSOCIATES *<9' - (612) 922-1955 ; . PS LN SELIKOFF* PG LN SEXTON* PG LN SIMS* PG LN SKOGLUND* PG LN SLEEVE* PG LN SMITH* PG LN SMITH* PG LN SORENSON* PG LN 3PAFF0RD* PG LN SPENCER* PG LN STACK* . PG LN STERIOSCOPE* PG LN STERLING* PG LN STOBAEUS* PG LN EYKORA* PG LN TEM* KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES (612) 922-1955 PG LN THOMPSON* PG LN THUREER* PG LN TIHBRELL* PG Ll'l 240 19 241 14 TLV* below the then existing available it appears that the TLV or threshold limit TLV of five million PG LN T0KEY* PG LN TREMOLITE* PG LN TUFFLEX* PG LN UCAR* PG LN ULTRABE3TOS * PG LN 173 10 173 13 173 15 175 4 178 15 178 20 178 24 173 25 179 1 180 17 180 24 181 7 131 8 181 16 131 17 132 4 182 10 182 13 83 1 133 14 UNION* Inc., Turner & Newall PLC, and on behalf of Defendant and on behalf of Defendant . lie are here representing about your background with , what year did you begin with what your positions were with . When you began with were the medical director of Doctor, when you worked for in time, if you recall, did majority of chemicals that .Carbide sold. Q. When , Doctor, which part of the or which division of chemical marketed by medical director for that were being marketed by the toxicology -- members of short fiber asbestos mined by UNION Carbide Corporation UNION Carbide Corporation UNION Carbide Corporation. UNION Carbide. Dr. UNION Carbide, is that UNION Carbide? A. 1947 UNION Carbide for purposes UNION Carbide you were the UNION Carbide's Texas City UNION Carbide Corporation, UNION Carbide Corooration UNION Carbide sold. Q. UNION Carbide prepared UNION Carbide Corporation UNION Carbide Corporation UNION Carbide Corporation, UNION Carbide, then UNION Carbide Corporation? UNION Carbide concerned UNION Carbide at King City KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES (612) 922-1955 ,;Vr-v*.j.- LN ONION* 4 from your perspective when UNION Carbide began 25 in the Coalinga deposit which UNION Carbide was 5 us that when you began with UNION Carbide in 1947 you 16 in the medical department at UNION Carbide. Q. 16 associate medical director at UNION Carbide, as to 20 City, California, of then UNION Carbide employees. 24 employees coming to work for UNION Carbide at the King 2 was mined and milled? A. UNION Carbide had a 15 , at that point in time when UNION Carbide began mining 25 it did or did not. Q. Did UNION Carbide continue to 4 at the time you retired from UNION Carbide in 1979 18 which he had obtained from UNION Carbide? A. I. 20 , was it your experience at UNION Carbide that you 1 Q. What was the policy at UNION Carbide, stated or 10 came to your attention which UNION Carbide refused to 24 the Court Reporter to mark as UNION Carbide Corporation 7 which was commissioned by UNION Carbide Corporation 17 which is the only study which UNION Carbide had 21 at the Mellon Institute at UNION Carbide's request? 6 that was a study requested by UNION Carbide to be 7 A. It would have to be from UNION Carbide. Q. 22 , what did they tell you as a UNION Carbide medical 7 differently. Who at UNION Carbide was 9 chemicals distributed by UNION Carbide? A. 22 information of the type that UNION Carbide knew it says 2 or marketing personnel at UNION Carbide Corporation? 22 Was it your experience at UNION Carbide that when 9 in the medical department of UNION Carbide ever receive 25 . Q. Are you aware of UNION Carbide or -- Doctor 1 -- Doctor, are you aware if UNION Carbide ever refused 15 which states at the top " UNION Carbide Internal 13 some issue that I have with UNION Carbide regarding 17 Doctor, at the time you left UNION Carbide in 1979 did 22 Doctor, at the time you left UNION Carbide Corporation 25 Doctor, at the time you left UNION Carbide Corporation 10 Doctor, at the time you left UNION Carbide Corporation 23 Doctor, at the time you left UNION Carbide in 1979 did 10 at the time you retired from UNION Carbide Corporation .9 with any of the attorneys for UNION Carbide other than 23 the medical director for UNION Carbide, is that 10 appears on that letter that UNION Carbide recognized 22 that report indicates that UNION Carbide, as of the 4 of that report, in your mind UNION Carbide did not 13 And presently with you are UNION Carbide attorneys 9 asbestos fiber was sold by UNION Carbide? A.' At 13 that would indicate when UNION Carbide ceased 15 Q. So you don't know if UNION Carbide sold open 4 , what studies, if any, did UNION Carbide perform, to 5 , to your knowledge, on UNION Carbide asbestos KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES - . (612) 922-1955 V PG LN 234 5 236 22 241 19 241 20 242 23 244 21 245 5 245 17 246 12 247 19 243 2 248 4 248 24 249 1 249 12 249 16 250 1 250 13 250 23 250 25 253 14 253 21 257 2 257 11 257 25 258 6 253 10 258 12 258 16 253 21 259 1 259 4 259 9 259 17 261 22 264 19 UNION* to February 3 of 1966, that this is to Peter Cheston of as that at least according to of May 8, 1969 someone at A two page letter on you believe that as of 1967 that as of June of 1967 , that as of August of 1972 you believe that as of 1967 toxicology report from 3R0WN30N: Q. Number 1, if , Doctor, do you believe those . Assume hypothetically that 1972. Do you believe those I know of no evidence that . A. I would expect that you believe. Doctor, that if . Do you believe, Doctor, if question. Q. If those in August of 1972 who within . Q. Do you know if . Q. Do you know who at deposition so as to afford those questions which I find am Bill Harvard. I represent , which were prepared by . Q. Were they required or business relationships with of other chemicals, marked by not have been accomplished by something had happened where , I reca.ll those. Q. Was . Q. To the extent that . Do you know whether ago covering your time with know what else it was that UNION Carbide 's, "Position UNION Carbide Limited, 3 UNION Carbide 's Asbestos UNION Carbide believed UNION Carbide stationery. UNION Carbide should have UNION Carbide should have UNION Carbide Corporation UNION Carbide should have UNION Carbide was in fact UNION Carbide personnel UNION Carbide industrial UNION Carbide personnel UNION Carbide personnel UNION Carbide people ever UNION Carbide people would UNION Carbide personnel UNION Carbide personnel UNION Carbide personnel UNION Carbide could they UNION Carbide at any time UNION Carbide would have UNION Carbide the UNION Carbide wanted asked UNION Carbide along with UNION Carbide Corporation, UNION Carbide to provide UNION Carbide, if you know UNION Carbide provided to UNION Carbide personnel at UNION Carbide did do such UNION Carbide Corporation UNION Carbide may have UNION Carbide in fact UNION'Carbide, is that . UNION Carbide did or how PG LN VESSEL* PG LN VIDEEN* PG LN VU1 KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES (612) 922-1955 zr.t.- PG LN WLDER* PG LN WLDER* PG LJ WLDER* PG LN WALSH* PG LN ViAPPES* PG LN WEIL* PG LN WELBES* ` PG LN WELSH* PG LN WEYERHAEUSER* PG LN WICKMAN* PG LN WILLARD* PG LN WILSON* ' PG LN WOLFF* PG LN WOMPUS* PG LN WOOLERY* PG LN WRAP* KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES (612) 922-1955 PG LN YOUNG* c c c KIRBY A". KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES (612) 922-1955-> v -