Document npm6q26gENay04ggZ7X9y0d81

Novtr*te'-1\'\Jio 2Ut ANNUAL MEETING INDUSTRIAL HYGIENE FOUNDATION .C-j&'i rocflo-. ** 30 liiiiiili!!!! INDUSTRIAL HYGIENE FOUNDATION OF AMERICA , nn* kTom KZXJLOM WSTITUTt |!||l!T"i!i T, lllillil!!!-1 WJW IX '* CopTrifht, 1987 lBduruui IriMii FiuMUm mt *am 1m. Puuturik, h. I ! I l INDUS MJ eng: i CONTENTS (CMtirntd) M*edical Conference P>l O. A. Seeder, MJ). Chairmen.................................................... >3 .Effective Educational Techniques in Industrial Health Counseling Raymond 1. Himr. MJ)............................................................... M Legal Aspects of Industrial Medical Practice . William A. Challtner, Jr. and Francia S. McQnilkia . . . 103 Legal Conference Theodore HeUler, Jr. Chairman............................... Review of Occupational Diaen.se Legislation--m.V> Andre* Kalmyko*............................................................... Air Pollution Control Leonard C. Johnson................................... .. Health Considerations in a Wokijj or E.m'axdina Atomic Power Medi.-al Aspects Thomas L. Shipman. M.O....................................................... Legal anl Insureni-e Aspects Ashley Si. Clair................................................. Reactor Safeguards C. Rogers McCullough, PK.D........................................... . Disposal of Radioactive VTaste Joeeph A. Lieberman. Eng.O........................................... Chemical-To\icological Conference _ Anna M. Baetier. Sf.D. Chairman................................................. 177 The Rclutiv.- Knl.- uf I'an-irntgroic ainl Xmii-eri-inio-viiIrritanis in Problems of Occupational Cam*<-r A. Weslry Horton. Ph.D. - ; -........................................................ 179 l'Nursnesr Summary of Prngr.- W. Clark Cooper, ' Summary of an Em tlie Diatomne-Procr- Aadrew 0. Hotey Some Medical ami 1 of Diaromiie Keaaeth \V, Smitl . Gas Chromatoirrapl. and Analy.i. of Vol Joha R. Lott. Ph.I Engineering Confers Philip Drinker. St Public Iii*alilf>`i-rv 1 Program on Air T.. Arthur C. Slcrn Resrari:: ami D-Cleanirr of llnrli T Letilf ail'rrmsn. - Sprc.ii' if Parti.-;!! W. B. Ham- Practnal In.ln.n . Rvbr.-i T. I'nnz Joint Technical Cni V. I' \hrarn. i' 11 cal V !......i " - Sale. .. !*.- .' ~ -- * ---r CONTENTS (Continued) 1 Pitt PxcrutK-o.vioiUi* ix the Dutohite Ixnrarm- Summary of Progress Report of Public Health Sen-ice Study . W. Clark Cooper. M.D....................................................................ISO Summary of an Environmental Study of the Diatomite-Proerviug luduatry Andrew O. Hater ................................................................................ 113 Some Medical ami Radiological Aapects . of Diarotnite Pneumoconiosis Kenneth W. Smith. M.D......................................................................... 139 Gaa Chromatography: A ileans for Separation and Analyi* of Volatile Material* John R. Lota. PK.D. and Charlea B. Willingham............................ 193 Engineering Conference Philip Drinker. Sr.D- Chairman................................................... 201 Public Health Servi.-e Engineering Program on Air Pollution Control ' Arthur C. Stern....................................................................................... 303 Research ami Development of Equipment fur Cleaning of High Temperature tiase* Leslie Silverman. Se.D....................................................................210 Spread of Parti-nlate Contamination from Stack* W. B. Harris.................................................................................... .233 Practical Industrial Air Clraning Problem* - Robert T. Print . . . ................................... 215 Joint Technical Conference V. P. .\hearn. Chairman ir.i< Moderator..................................... 21" Health Prbl>-m* Involved :n tin* Manufacture. Sale, and !'* T ii- Ma,ri:d-.............................................21? and error den have it* advantage*. at least if there i* net too much error. Without (rradual improvements prraum are built up. El i treuie remedies may then lie suggested. The* may well teem aatia- factory to ooly a few. Let uk Imre evolution rather than drastic change. . SUMMARY OF OCCUPATIONAL DISEASE LEGISLATION--195S Concrete S.2280 (Public Law 803--84lh Conrress) affective July 26, 1936. increase* beneAts under Longshoremen's and Harbor-worker's Compen sation Art--revise* provisions as to special fund. Kentucky............ S B. 98 (Chapter 342. Lew* of 1958) effective August 1, 1950, revises occupational disease provieions. Maryland............ S.B. >5 (Chapter 94, Laws of 19501 effective June 1. 1950, . lengthens statute of limitations in ease medical car* is furnished. Massachusetts ..H.B. 3140 (Act So. <02. Law* of 1950) affective November 4. 1956. rentes rehabilitation provisions. Sew York...........S- Ini 1588 (Chapter 090. Laws of 1950) affective March 1. 1957. enacts volunteer Aremen's beneflt law. Int. 3874 (Chapter 097. Laws of 1950) effective May 1. 1958. enacts amendments to voluntoar Aremen's benaAt law. Pennsylvania ...MB 1397 (Art 335. Acts of 1955) affective March 29. 1958, revues Occupational Disaaaes Act. 5.B. 235 (Act 443. Arts of 1955) effective September 1. 1958. Amends Occupational Disease Act with reference to covers re of tuberculosis. . _ . -~ Workmen'* Compensation Study Commissions Massachusetts ..H.B. 2923 Maryland............ (appointed by Governor) Michigan .............S. Rea. 43 Sew York .......... (Moreland Commission) Virginia.............. HJ R 91 (Public Officers) Atomic Energy Study Commissions ' Massachusetts . .S.B. 723. S.B. 791 ' Sew Jereev......... SJR 11 Sew York.......... A. Res 2Prt . Ohio .....................H R 2I5X , Rhode Island .. .H.B. 937 i South Carolina .. S.U. 511 ; Virginia...............3.J R 10 t 1=6 ] iff- All With Pt ElffCtgf** It i> singula be in Pittsburgh, as a striking txa: civic ini|>rovemrii of the air |>ulluii be thr lirM to f Thine of u* who by visible eviden do it. Moreover, for ils efforts in and rrileve|o)>ioc ing area- the ' Thus it i- |' assipiit-1 iue in a mtnation ho -av tile lot of all mu- Air iolltitii rrrnrtl-il a. ) effort- werr dir-- Profe--or Thom*early a- ]*.')2 N< stitut* n nuivaiualone afford- in tuiii against th-- r upon th- inn- |.i jaoent property pletely nn-fi.i tn.i atoderti indn-Ti. nnnieraM'- -our., sotirrr of injuri ]a>r-on vi i.o iH appear' oi.v III.I. -tAtll'-.r* Uw Kart' I--. . c PUBLIC HE PROGRAM i. Tllr I'OMIIUUD Sn'ic i divided The medical pro": of Special Health : iatered by enpioeei Because of this. w. pram a the "Pti Pollution Coniro). .At the time . Air Polltmoii Re159--84:1, (`oil "re to limn the iin-,., lull to utilize :liothe pmcram loud neerm; |imsr;iiii i is in universities. tr>ii arncie, mui Weather Dnrraii. ment of Ajriculr. Training Person: This ii:MM.ii inc persons m tin the on.- luml. r).. Taft Sanniin* E: short-term tniii i eiiffiun-rm^ .11 .1 year. S'7 Oil tli" h'-v li lire ! irj ll'Millll" i * .. i'. ?r;ilil-il! ai.l - : . nllon si'i.i- .* ` 4.'i per i : i t *11.1 ....... . f' HEALTH PF MANUF OF 0e Act liM* Oitio *||( E. MODEKAToK thinfr "bout thi* ppr hn% !-:; j will b# MiOst r*^ liAVr U- (lo^tn 1 Ml*H II T11 M 1 11*41 * 1 Jill* *- !.- |i\ lli*- M*l-r.i1..r IIUlii'-* <!< tie: .t j j . tU(|iulil i* Iliriuiwr^ '! * I*** j-.ti & . Amp B rrrrU rjt.iraNa. lia..inr. l...l...a..d..u...a.l.t.i..a..l....K.......4. K ie t.llv . 'irsm . '- ` HEALTH PROBLEMS INVOLVED IN THE MANUFACTURE, SALE, AND USE OF TOXIC MATERIALS A Panel Dtscuuion MOOERATOt: V. P. AHEARN btftPM SCIU7, NaUul Udwet**! %sm4 PARTICIPANTS: P. W. BACHMAN. PK.O. Vi<c Prti4flt & Oirdf # KctPtk A OmUpiHtt . Kppa Ctmpmmy. I**. H. S* BAILE Otvtv CmpI *d G*tfl CmmimI. Aiuni AodM, Pin iN Lrf AunfiHi Lid. THEODORE HATCH * Grdt Sk*J *4 PAlk HHh: N Rm*jJi AdviMf, Udsinl HyfiiM L C MeGEE. M.O. 0mc4*, Mtrcvkt PtOf C R. OVtATT I ljai U# C*Aid N CiN Crtiiifan JOHN A. ZAPP. JR.. PK.O. <* TacUfy **4 l*dvtnl L L 4a SM 4% Nt*<an A C*mp**V' I*C ' MODERATOR V. P. AIIEARN. 1 would like to tell you aome* thing about tbe procedure* far the o|>eration of thi* panel. A list of queationa has been prepared an the tuhjeet before us today, and copies will be diatributed to the audience. Two members of the panel in most ease* have laen a.ked to he prepared in lie railed u|K)n. That doesn't mean that oilier panel mrml>er> are nnt .iippaxed tn purlin, pate. I want to make ii elear that paru-l rmtv'inlimi ia mil na-eisary bv the Mialerator fur eontribntinn. hy nieiiila-r* (if the panel whine name* tin not appear id the left-hand side ul lit** ipieMmn. Karli par* ticipallt i* ouppused to mid )< Ihr rantrihulmux made hy the utlier uieiida-m uf the panel whenever hi In. judgment there are adililmnal [ 249 ) I t I*, ra a t.a a r, Inc.; Tkraduft U Ihr Kaua4.lln| V. I"- J" <*. r.app, * * ................ f iA r(NltimAn iurMn. liation. ilu punt dr nil ltri.ra I 19-j - &1 contribution* to be made. The panel participant* met this morniug to L look over the questions and to discus* the program. After the reeeaa, at 3:30. we propose to give priority to questions asked from the floor rather than to the written-out questions. Wc ho|ie that there will be door discussion even if we haven't answered , all the written questions, hecattw* we want to establish the town hall atmosphere and to.give each of you an opportunity to.ask a question, to make a contribution, to challenge a member of the panel, or do any thing else that your democratic instinct suggests you do. The lint question which I am going to ask the panel is: "How does one define 'health problems'? What is meant hv `toxic ma terial'?" 1 sin going to ask Dr. McGee to answer that question. DR. McGEE: In broad sense, one might say that any deviation from optimum physical, mental, and social weil-lieing is s health problem. Thar definition of health as the optimum state of mental, physical tod social adjustment has l>eeu luitted about for a number of years. 1 lielieve fur the purpose of this afternoon's contribution, how ever, the health problems involved should be limited to those devia tions from optimum health which occur as a result of an exposure in manufacturing, sale and use of something which is called "toxic material." As the title is stated, of course, any deviation in health of a worker would react on his work in output, and so forth, in a broad sense. But 1 lielieve the inclining here is in a more limited sense of those deviations from the optimum physical, mental, and social ad justmentsWhich n-ailt from tlic i-ontiu-t with this thing called "toxic inutcrial." Passing then to tin- second part of tin- question. "What i toxic material*" we are in trouble immediately. I find very few people, outside of those who an- concerned with deleterious substances as they affect man. who have a concept uf tin- large ranee in degree and character of toxicity. It is a word which menus what anybody wants it to mean. ~ I'nfortunately. to siilistitutr for "toxic." "poisonous." "deletenons" or what have you. gets us no place. It so happens that every thing with which man is in contact cun la- irmiblesome and "toxic" if lie gets too tnitrli. Those things that we ismsidcr essential to life, including fund, vitamins, linm-rais. mi.I water, cun lie "li-xic t*> loan. 1 lielieve Mr. llenrv Srnytli. dr.. d'-lm.-d "tosir" Simply a* a mailer uf tun nuirli If We keep that lit liluul. we will reab/.e then that we cannot circumscribe a certain group ul mali-rmls and siv tln-si- nr-tn.sir. Olliers are lint tuxie. I must mliiiil. and p.cih|v Ur Znpp ran [ 2" f> ] help us here. TIs arbitrary rtefiuit DR. JCAl'I' that Mr. Mi-i.ee very many iut----- that we have 111 eisluri-s to gioe II It Kill of lu.XIC l. Dr. Mclire the report of ti Association, is tThe Couucii f: fact, it states t:: as to what con-- And thru, stances i not ; when infpro|ieri be provided i cetera. So. here, bv |omc Ulster: warning of thr tu talk almm tl. is. tile prnbal ;1 ur it--- of tlu^.' MOMEHA* Now. 1 IIIO\ e o; of the pallet w have aireadv v You foo:-. on this platfor this question as applied io |s people invoiv Ml? H.V ! to an ap-.-ro.u ! tin,,:. ' .................... ' | t. i ul lii fur T lie *11 I ` - op. :l , ! - help ua here. that, for jmr|o*r* of orieutatioo, arbitrary definition of what ia toxic. must have mimic ' UR. ZAl'IV i mu only express uiv agreement with the remarks that Dr. Metier lias ramie. The tenn "tone material" ia subject to very many interpret**inn* hv different people. The great difficulty tliat we ln*ve in miking sI*om them junl in drawing up laws ami pro* rslures to govern the iim* of toxic material revolvea about the drfinit inn of toxic in*trri*l. Dr. Mctiev waa quoting to von just a few momenta ago from the report of the Council of Toxicology of The American Medical Association, in which are reviewed the various definitions of poison. (The Council found that there was no uniformity.) As a matter of fact, it states that there is no uniformity of legal or scientific opinion as in what constitute* a |>oison. And then, since n precise definition that would fit all circum stances is nor possible, the Committee felt that any cuhstancc that when improperly u*ed may produce harm by chemical action, should be provided with *n appropriate cautionary label or statement, et cetera. So. here, we have not only difficulty in defining what we mean by toxic iiiMientil. but *l*u a concern on the part of this group for* warning of the consequences of misuse. 1 think what we really mean t talk aliuut this afternoon is more properly defined as hazards, that is. the probability that an injury will occur in the manufacture, sale, or u*e of these materials. MODERATOR All EARN: Thank you very much. Dr. Zapp. Now. I move on ! thr second question. unless at this stap* a member of the panel wishes to add something to what these two gentlrmcn have already said. You football men will notice I am playing a seven-man lineup on this platform. I am going to nsk my right tackle. Dr. Bachman, this question : "Do you think there is any basic difference in safety a* applied to people in research and development in comparison with people involved in regular production operationsV* DR. llAt'IIMAN: I think tbi* qiit-<liun in the first place refers to mi approach to safety. In that respect. I will try to pass an opinion. I think then* i* a ni)*ideiHl>lr ditfercnee in the safety that one encounter in tin- laboratory mid iloit *s hiflt one eiieounters in the plant. In a plant in the regular production ojxrntion. it is possible for the engineer* in break n prees* down into mnnv component parts all.I study these part* from the point of view of safety: the different o|m rations run la* adequate!* safeguarded. 1 tlnnk there i< not very I "sVsSj S>.:iiWB5a much diffiuulry in thin. amfrit is rather rarely ilist we have accidents of aay significant nature in processes that tre continually o|erating in a repetitive manner. 1 think that is rather easy to control, and it m more feasible to train the operator* in safety mcasttree. Now. in contrast with that is a rwwarcli lalairatory. The men in tlie lalsiralory arc frequently working in unexplored and unknown areas. Tliey may or may nut. and probably will nut. know the toxico logical nr hazardous exphaiivc pni|*rtie* of llie materials with which they are working or of the materials which might )a> formed as a result of their researches. So. here, yon have only a few of the general rules of safety that apply. I think a great deal of it in the case of the research man depends entirely upon hint. I think his approach to it mutt be one of safety consciousness. I think he hes to really live safely and to be effective this has to be a part of his background, a part of hit disposition.. MODERATOR AHKARN: Thank von. Dr. liachman. Now. Mr: Hatch. MR. HATHI: I vriainly agree with everything he said except the second |Kint. attitude. Ortain'y. it is true that the people who are doing the luisic research and development work should incorporate into their day-tu-day Thinking the needs with respect to safety to a greater degree than triple nut on the production line. However, it has been my experience, and 1 am sun- many of the rest of us here have hail the same experience, that very often we find it just the other way artnind. The man whn is doing research is so wrapped up in his research objective that lie is inclined tint to give very much considera tion t these other matters. ) can recall visiting laboratories where, for example, they were using such a well-known agent as benzol and were slopping it around like water. At the same time, they might be quite concerned over the toxicity of the new and exciting material that they are developing. So. I am sure it is important t make sure that in the enur** of re search and development, these questions are constantly raised, hut I don't think we can rightly assume that the research iwople art* n I ways guiug to raise them. Mlt|)ERATO|{ AHKARN; Thank you. Ted T want III remind the panel that other muiirihiilinns an* always wclt-oiiicd. MU. ItAll.K; May I interjwt one uninn-nt ? The very ili-luiilinn that laitli g.-nili-im-ii have made Uuwccn the rrsrnrrh ii|mt:iIinn and production o|>ratnn suggest* the desirability of a slightly ilif ferent approach to the safety program with respect to nis-ratimi In [ 252] " -- the product individual, thr research Inn. Therrl provide :er traphe* ecc MODE" The next in here. "Poes bilitv Polio nor to s<ln:i Ui custom'1 Mr. b.i mh. n.it should ut there i *n order that ' I think it >part of her I utai-t coop The >'s unitmn other C'-isii mansfae'!!r* plaint* * ' i-on'-**n<-ii ' that might > ^ n t *. * 5UTPT 40 rtr- th't '. whave . satiTiirrr he ew nnu The .n s '.'l.-if. \\if f'.i'.'*"'--' * !.(%>* Im- -.... . T'1" ` : '' the produ.ii.in <i(N rnthiii. you arc dealing with guarding nvitinwr the individual. isolated accident* in the course of production. whereas, io the research operation. you ere concerned with the catastrophe prob lem. Therefore, your program in that respect should be designed to provide for the type of action required in the event those catas trophes occur. MODERATOR AHEAKN. Thank you very much. Mr. Haile. The nest question five* us a chance to break out our legal talent up here. "Does not the obligation of the insured under a Products Lia bility Polio-, particularly his agreement not to settle with a claimant nor to admit liability, interfere with a manufacturer's relations with his customers and with the public?" Mr. Baile. you can he the first one to answer that question. MR. RA1LE: I believe the simple answer to the question is that it should not I think at the same time you have to recognize that there is an apprehension on the part of some people that it does. In order that it shall not luterfere with customer and public relations. I think it is of utmost importance that there he understanding on the part of both the insurer and the insured, and also that there lw the utmost cooperation between the two. The liasie understanding that has to exist is to recognize the dis tinction between customer complaints on one hand and claims on the other. Customer complaints must be s concern of the insured, the manufacturer himself. He must be free to deal with customer com plaints as you deal in business relations, without necessarily being concerned with the legal basis of the claim or the legal possibilities that might arise out of your action. .. On the other hand, it is most important on the part of the in surer to recognize that the insured must he free to act in that way : that lie must le free to deal with a customer in order that he will have a satisfied customer. Since that is the interest of the manufac turer. he can't-restrain that action in order to protc-f his legal posi tion. The interest of the insurer snd the insured must be recognized as an identical inierest. They are not two parties: they are one party serving one a%|>ect of The insured \ business, which is his relation to thr customer* insofar as they are affected by his products. I hope 1 don't sound idealistic speaking as an insurance man on that subject. Iieeanse ] think if i the actual practice of every com pany of standing to operate in the handling of prielucl* liability claims in prccis-iv that w*v If it is done inat wa.v. then there i* no interference with flic company's relaiions with the public tlie riil<micr. [ 253 ] MODERATOR AUKAIRn': Thank you. Dr. Zapp. will you m, comment f PR 7APP- VtVIl. 1 can't sneak on this topic a* a 1awygr_n_r aa 10 insurance man. It dor* seem to me that there an- two separate concept* involved ' ia this quection. One concern* tin* mechinuin of aettling claims which pmunir that there has barn an injurs* for which the plaintiff seeks to mover damages. The other part concerns the relations of the man* ufacturcr with liis customers anil with the public. Now. it seein to nte that the ninnnf leftirer Inis a verv definite resoonsiliihtv to Jn> customers Mini in tin- nibiic. and that is to point out to them iio Ills IM1 Us-1 Iw llse. with saietv. ,\o* hi tie can interfere with met resimnsn.i itv on iin* nan ot the manufacturer. turer's statements were inadi*|nate or in error, then you hare this question of deciding a I out liability, whirl) 1 feel is a separate matter. MODERATOR AHEAKN: Thank you. Dr. Zapp. The next ques tion is. "What information respectinc physical and chemical prop erties end toxicological pro|iertie of the material does the industrial hygienist need in order to develop the hazard control program V' Mr. Hatch. j MR. HATCH : The answer to this question is vers* easy. You get J| all that is available. There is one very important as|>ect of this que*_ non as to what information concemiBi.* physical sod i-hemical and I toxicological properties that the industrial hygienist needs. The ini- | plication is that there is information with rrs|>ect to the toxicological proi'erfies of the substance obviously essential to an undeis.tandiog of Jj the hazard. That doesn't tell the whole story. however. There must be added to this question; what information does he need also with i respect to the way in which the process operates in which this toxir : sulistancc is to lie used? It is important for us to keep in mind that ' there i a very real different in toxicity anil hazard. Here is where | the physical and chemical properties as rll as the toxicological prop erries come in. " We know for esattmlc, that two std'sixm-es mac It- emiallv toxic but <Mi:te different in resiwer to li.irurd Thn it should I..- ibe uuuis. trie! r1 p'euisi < resnonsil.dllv t- acenm ..-i.- .m :iic .................... Hint is and it shieiiil lie Ins i ."'-1, : 1*1- M.ruriim- lion -mi ntl.ritu n- in nlial cMent inftO1 :ri *< .nn.IT mn is n.*<`.i`'t. i*. CMUs.- 1 can t .'Hill! Ins rest .niisiinlii \ 1 - sin i>lv s.ivnn.* :i:,i1 ..nlv S" t mile n Is KOuu II .iImhii r 1 i- siil'stiincc aim rin*cc:im' i ii : s n .i is ' ,.\e In " [ 254 ] be based np..n t additional ml"' M0DEKA7 DR. M.-iiE given. 1 wonder is Useful- in hur thst if you hv below thst can*; aod pood o|>erat guide. You mav It level- a hove r ' MODERA7 There are two <p points and we " 1. who sells n io 1his own name o sumer ami. 2. Wim* adequate warm: eonsimier aith'* instructions J miii com-.* MR c\'l.\ of the 11 v ::e ami el :li> < a. if fill- "- r * packaC* 1? ill*,, should nml eii* HIP I" put lie : th pucka'."- i' reseller per*..', lie should sinp . i i| CCI i of T!"# 1 *- i i U'||. .if.* -J-.if'.* ' Mill* fit.ii : * i * kiM'" 1- M- i < .  Hrj2mT*eetoittha^jhe_nrcesMr iGdmonai mtummiion i* obtained. - MODERATOH A HEARN: Dr. McGee. DR. McGEE: Accepting the suggestion* that Ted Hutch has given. 1 wonder if lie would admit there u a practical shortcut which is useful in human exposure* to some materials. 1 refer to the fact that if you have an explosive hazard at a concentration in air well below that causing a definite, clear-cut. biological effect, it is a simple and good operating rule in take the lowest, concentration needed as a guide. You may disregard certain properties which are evident only at level* above that level which can be tolerated for reasons of safety. MODERATOR AfTEARN: Thank yon very much. Dr. McGee. There are two question* on the list which liear essentially on the not points and we will therefore discus* them jointly. They are: 1. `What is the liability of a manufacturer of a toxic chemical who sells it in hulk for packaging and resale by the purchaser under his own name or brand in the event of an injury to an ultimate con sumer?" and. 2. "What liability dues a company have for its product if an adequate warning laliel is placed on the container hut the ultimate consumer either does not read the warning laliel or does not follow its instructions?" 1 am going tu call on Mr. Oviatt first. MR. OVIATT. If the manufacturer adequately warn* a reseller of the toxic nature of flic material either on the laliel nr otherwise and of the care that should lie used in handling it. he is not liable if the reseller fails to put sueli warning on the package when lie re packages it ami sells it to the public. Of course, if a manufacturer should find out hi any one of numerous ways that the reseller is fail ing to put flic notice nr the warning or any material pan thereof on the packages then he should call the reseller's attention to it. If the reseller |>ersisis in disregarding those warnings, then I lielieve that he should stop selling it to hint for his own safety. . Of course, what should go on a lala-l df|and* greatly on the class \ of trade to which any product is sold, tin- knowledge of the jienpl* I who are going to IISC it. the i-lienilc.il knowledge and r**su It * that might come I rum mishandling. So you run't s*v a label ha* I" hear thus and so lor the entire general pubic- And that would al*o control in a certain extent, what should go on a laliel to a reseller It is wliat knowledge lie may have of (lie rle-iiiieal- sold and wliat h- should ad , vise bis purchaser* a* to the method of use - [ 255 ] MODERATOR A11EARN: Thank you very much. Mr. OviitL Ur. Elite. '* UR. BAILE: 1 tliink is anawering the bm of the two questions, you hire to mke a distinction between chemicals which are toxic as a normal attribute of the chemical itself on the one hand, and on the other hand the ehemieal which is toxic as a result of some danger* erecting defect that exists in the chemical which would normally be harmless. Now. 1 think Mr. Oviatt'a answer is primarily directed to the first class where you arc dealing with the chemical which is naturslly toxie. Under those circumstances, when the purchaser is given full knowledge of the toxic character of it and the dangers that are in herent. or the purchaser, without your telling him, has that knowl edge. 1 don't think there is any liability on the part of the manu facturer. However, where the toxie character of the chemical is created by some defect in the manufacturing process, then 1 think there is liability on the part of the manufacturer. I don't think we are going to permit manufacturers to insulate their own carelessness in the manufacture of their product against consumers by the intervention of a middle man. MR. 0VLAT7: Mr. Baile. after all. the question was what is the liability of the manufacturer of a toxic chemical. Now a chemical is either toxic or not toxic, is that right? MR. BAILE: Not according to my friend at the lieginning of the meeting. MR. 0V1AT7: If a chemical becomes toxie because of the de fect, that isn't the subject of our meeting today, is it? I thought we are just speaking of materials that are inherently toxic without any defect producing toxicity. MODERATOR AHEARN: 1 believe it would be helpful to the audieoce, Mr. Baile. if we had more pointed discussion of the second half of this question, because it seems to me it is a question which most people in this sudience are very much inieresied in. Will you pom: your remarks specifically to that question? MR. BAILE:As Mr <>viatt ] nuted out. th.- basic cnnshWntiun is imposing liability upon a manufacturer ~f a chemical. whi-h in ns nature is toxic, is the obligation that i inipi"--l upon Inin t.. tlisrminate the knowledge that he has of the dancers to the purchaser. N-uv. his only method of doing that in most instances is through labeling [ 256 ] the product wr particular use countered. Ha.' If. therein ing on his _pr> advantage of . either refusing clearly under* it constitutes o which would b. manufacturer. MR. 0V1. is that the ma- MR. IUIJ MODF.KA that additional lJv the i request of the panel are sj>a be regard'd amay assume tl We will g producer of tlOS. researci.. Mh HA* coming that get the pruiiii We i:av.. tubstaiiis-' ii.i' even to thr e\ vanee that li the mat.I i- 1 re..:! one vumpativ material re.|n appro'-i- of * anoini-: t'\i U|. an eie'-o:. th< III.** .! the produet with an appropriate warning, ft ating prohibitions against particular os* and providing an antidote in the event harm is en countered. Having done tli.it. there is not mueh more lie can do. If, therefore, he meets that requirement--puts an adequate warn ing on his product--the unwillingness of an ultimate, user to take .advantage of the knowledge that has been made available to him. either refusing to read it or failing to understand that which is dearly understandable dues not create a liability. On the contrary, it constitutes on the part of the consumer, the party injured, a fault which would bar any right of recovery that he should have against a manufacturer. MR. OVIATT; On the other hand, what yon are really saying is that the manufacturer does not have to police hia customers. MR. BAILE: I think that is a fair statement. MODERATOR AHEARX: 1 believe the audience appreciated that additioual contribution from both of you. By the way, I forgot to say in opening this meeting that at the request of the panel. 1 want to make it dear that the menders of the panel are speaking only for themselves as individuals and are not to be regarded as committing their companies in any way. I think we may assume that they and their companies are fairly close together. We will gc on to the nest question now: "In what way can the producer of a tosic substance aid in seeunng its safe use hv educa tion. research, and development of control measures?" Mr. Hatch. MR. HATCH: We agreed in a preliminary panel meeting this morning that this question answers itself. The point is. how ean we get the producer to recognise and accept his responsibility T We have many examples in which the manufacturers of toxic substance-, neve recognised and awtuuied responsibility in this respect, even to the extent of requiring the customer to show evidence in ad vance that he lias made adequate provisions for the safe handling of the materia) before they will supply it to him. I recall when 1 was with the X'ew York Lalior Department that one company which was producing and distributing a highly toxic material required even- potential customer in X`ew York to get the approval of the State for their proposed control, lo the case of another toxic Milistmiee >mr of our large clu-mu-ul companies lias set up an elaliorute tile materi-t. in p-eo-iiil;nii Ol lhe~i'rv iitithO'lmil Inct that without adequate S.i;-*TV iiif.i-'ii'*-. -.rum. iiiih* ml *** Uonn.i to result. 1 unm.. ,dii- in turn to the last item: tin- development of control when using a new malarial, examine the worker at rather frequent intervals until ihrv define for themselves: 1. That the average person doe* trell under the circumstance* and the control situation that exist* at the plant; and 2. That in a sufficient exjterienee they bare not demonstrated an anuaual sensitivity. ' I refer not only to the entire group of allergies, hut to some of the idiosyncrasies which are not too well understood. A part of this recognition'of a hazard involves other than basic knowledge, orientation and thinking about it day by day. A respon sible individual reviews some of file possibilities which may be over looked and checks and double checks to see if they are actually occur ring. If you don 't look. 1 will assure you that the esperienee of most of us is that you can mi* them until they foree themselves on yon. By looking carefully for an untoward reaction you may find it earlier than otherwise. MODERATOR AHEARN: Thank yon. Now. Dr. Bachman. DR. BACHMAN: Om-C again I am in a position of backup man with very little to say on the subject, because I think Dr. McGee has pretty much said what can be said. I do note that the point at which most of the conditions arise or appear is at the start of a new plant. I think it is only bv following the points as made by Dr-. McGee that one can discover or uncover thr abnormal sensitivity of a person. The only tiling that I know of that could be done is to remove the man from the action and pray that he doesn't get worse. MODERATOR AHEARN : Thank you. Dr. Bnchman. Mr. Hatch. MR HATCH: I would like to add to what Dr. McGee said. In addition to the continuing observations on the men for the purpose of identifying a problem area, it ia equally esaential that there be paral lel studies on exposure. The ultimate pur|iose is to compare the one with the other. So don't forget that it is the two together, the man and the environment, that have to be studied continuously in order to reveal significant relationships. With mechanization and- automation the maintenance jteoplv in a plant Itceomc more ami more important. There are more of them in proportion to production men and difficult problems arise with res|*rct to them Im-chiis-- their exposures arc so varied and uncertain. Thus, systematic .uni continuing studies are cwn more important. DR. ZAl'l'. 1 should like to coninient on a suggestion that is frequently nude, ilmt is. win can t we deled the abnormally min- tiw individual by some tort of screening test? For dermatitis, for t rumple. why not i patch teat before lie is put info contact with the suspected material on his jolit Generally spiking. we do not recommend this procedure. I be lieve one of flic biggest scale attempts at thin sort of tbinf was the * testing orvolunteers with mustartl teas at the lwginninf of World War 11. A great many were tested in an effort to determine individual variation* in sensitivity. One consequence of thi* program was that some of the men were sensitised to mustard gas and therefore reacted abnormally whenever they came in contact with small concentrations. So. it is not a practical procedure to weed ont the hypersensitive by a preliminary testing program if we are dealing with a sensitizer. The other comment is thst we can anticipate certain types of difficulty. For example, suppose we are dealing with a chemical that produces kidney injury. It would not be wise to expose a man who has only one kidney: he might very well be abnormally sensitive. And that brings np the importance of an adequate, preplacement medical examination and a classification of a man as fit or unfit for a certain type of exposure. DR. MeGEE: May I add one thing which I think is iinpomntl It is the absolute necessity of a critical attitude in tying down the diagnosis. I know of s few arras where it is more important to cross examine s diagnosis and prove it to the extent that it is possible to prove it than in occupational disease. The very act of having a high index of suspicion when supervising an operation with a potential hazard sometimes leads to false diagnoses that can he troublesome. I am reminded of the incident of the plant physician who was aware that a chemical could he a sensitizer of the skin snd lead to a dermalitis. He showed me a ease of a ven- stuhliorn dermatitis, attilw born because the man had been removed from the exposure for six months and still had the skin lesions. 1 was visiting the plant ai the time. 1 had a hunch of a different diagnosis when 1 saw the man's lesions, partly heeause I was not expecting >-ontact dermatitis, aa was the plant physician who lives with the problem every day. I asked the patient if there were members of his family who had similar skin trouble. There were two members who had similar complaints. The diagnosis proved to Iw scabies for all three of the patients. MODERATOR AHEARX; Thank you very nuu li. We will go on to the nest ipu-uion. "Doe* the usual Pr<im-u Liability Policy cover snv and all liability that may be im|>q**-d upon a inannfaviurrr for damages resulting from the use of Ins product ? MR. BA1LE. I think the answer to that question is obviously no. [260] First of ail. i provided in might be imr itself. That 1 product liab: basis.'' Ti. damage- ansi dent is used point of time effects which amount of sp larly when v. liability rcsul mind that a ] a satisfactory be certain th; to call "occur I thing : basis is imp> coverage of t! pretry difBeu more appam road conrrac method i a 1 ing prupertie The pi her me avoid that X pensive meth MR. T. do no; in sura beyond the MR. BA out with the be 'ary hapi wouid be ver that, of emir* pany individ .premium T.'> ha'o i.e.-n . \ tiet-essariiv " S- :: is common to r. Pint of all, it does not cover aoy liability in ezeeaa of limita that are provided in the policy. Second, it doei not cover the liability that might be imposed upon a manufacturer for damage to the prodnet itself. That liability ia ezelnded in the normal policy. Third, moat product liability* policies are written on what ia called "accident basis." They cover liability imposed upon the manufaenanr- far damages arising out of the use of a product, canted by aceident. Acci dent ia used there in the seuse of some event which is identifiable in point of time and place of occurrence, as distinguished from advene effects which are cumulative over a long period of time or over a great amonnr of space. For that reason, it is very important, and particu larly when yon are considering the exposure of a manufacturer to a liability resultiog from toxic effects of the products, that you keep in mind that a policy which is written on the usual accident basis ia not a satisfactory policy for your purposes. In that instance, you should be certain that your policy ia written on what insurance men ehooae to call "occurrence basis." as distinguished from an "aceident basis.'' I thing in oue other instance the fact that it is on an accident basis ia important, because that also ia designed to exclude any coverage of the results of business decisions that might be made. It ia pretty difficult to illustrate that in a ease of products. I think it is more apparent in the esse of general liability policies. Yon take the road contractor who has two methods of tearing up an area. One method is a little cheaper for him. but it involves exposing surround ing properties to damage by shaking or noise or something like that. The other method, which might cost him a little hit more money, would avoid that. With that knowledge, he proceeds to follow the leas ex pensive method. That i a business decision the company baa made. MR. .T. C. WATERS: May I ask one question as to that? Why do not insurance carriers write policies on a broader basis so they get beyond the concept of accidents! MR. BAILE: 1 think to answer that question you have to start out with the premise that the insurance company, if it eould, would be very happy to write policies on a completely broad basis. They would be vers* happy to insure the total liability of industry. To do that, of course, we would have to receis-e the total income of each com pany individually, which yon would Iks unwilling to pay by way of premium. Therefore, it is the question of balancing the risk that you has'c been exposed to against what you are willing to pay for, not necessarily willing, but what you can reasonably pay for. So it is a question of isolating those haxarda which arc mot common to industry generally and covering them, and excluding the [261] specific hazards of a particular company or industry which arr sub* jeeted to a much greater hazard than any other part of that industry or any other industry. The second answer to the question, however, front the standpoint of proauctx liability, is that the insurance industry in general will write the policy on an occurrence basis. What they are going to want to know in a particular industry is what are the hazards to which that company is exposed f And they will try to measure the rate that they charge in the light of those hszards. But. as an additional point, for the company that is exposed by virtue of the nstnre of its product to damage arising out of the toxic effect*. it is aM impor tant that they should have their policies written on the occurrence basis. I think in the main it will be an insurable risk on an occurrence basis. MODERATOR AIIEARN: Dr. McGee. ... DR. McGEE: I disclaim any knowledge of product liability poli cies. As a physician. I woulJ hope that no device or arbitrary fac tors would ever lesseo the desirability and need for a manufacturer to know rhose things about his products which are reavtaahle and which he should determine prior to their use. MODERATOR AHEARN: Thank yon very much. The next question is: '`Inasmuch as your industrial ex|wnence has Wn quite broad, what, based upon that experience, do yon think constitutes the average corporate philosophy concerning management's res|>onsibility for the safety and protection of its employees V* Dr. Bachman. DR. BACHMANI think this is rather an interacting question, and. of eours*. can only lie answered on the basis of one's own ex perience; and I think in arriving at any statement or any thought concerning what the uverage coriwirate philosophy is today, one must review what lias happened over tin* course of one's lifetime. The gen eral approach to safety 10 years ago was qiiitr different from what it is today. The companies that were mostly interested in the safety of their men were, in a largr measure, those companies where yon had sort of a paternalistic feeling between the owners of the company and towards their men. I don't think there was much of a concertisl effort for safety. Some. |>erhaps. hut nor too great. Then as time went on and we grew, we have had a ehangc in economic and *o*-io!ogieal conditions. 1 think we have had mans ce ment |ienple. as it whole, hrvtittir much more socially ron>< ioii towards their fellow man and eon-vimis of their obligations to him oyer this 10.year period. That lias rented a great deal of difference in the approach to developing *aii tv measures for employees . " [ :g: ) In ac that safer very den economy products more moi enmphi-.t! Wjili icereasinc they ohta that they productio ia the I**-- that he w fatality n duenou '. and these appruaeh has been m the wo Agasi ag-ment "mcrcssour orgai plant." d'-fheopie- F roil: veers qn-->*t ion TOsiJV hi- I! 'S hi..-:- ten-lie MOD Mil j<- 1 de 'var- set. in.rrn-. .lilt: tl. " N,. . FI-*-tft tr.:e e; l. In addition. 1 think*managrmcnta over the years have recognized that safety is economically aound for a number of reasons. It has a cry definite monetary value when you consider our competitive economy. Processes liave crown more and more complicated; new producta have apiwarrd. This has unused the maiiafeiuent to spend more money in order to build planla which inevitably have become complicated. With the plants Incoming more complicated and the production increasing, it has l*>en very desirable for the management to see that they obtain the highest quality of work and the most skilled workers that they can. The skilled worker became a very intricate cog in the production wheel, and it was certainly most desirable to protect him in the liest possible manner, to look out for his health and be sure that he worked safely. The loss through accident* or through sonic fatality would be serious, and. actually, mean a lot in dollars in pro* duction rime and production effort. I think this social consciousness and these other two factors have gone a long way in improving our approach to better and safer working conditions. Furthermore, money has been saved, and this has lieen well recommended in the savings in tlie workmen's compensation fees. Again. I think another factor tlrnt makes it worthwhile for man* agement to bave a very favorable attitude towards safety is that it increases and improves the morale of their workers, and 1 know in our organization we have a saying. "A safe plant it rather a happy plant. " And usually, if you have a happy plant. yon have your least difficulties and you get your best work. From my own ex|>enem-e. I would say that whereas in bygone years when one approached expenditures for safety purposes, the question might l>e raised. "Is this necessaryV. the attitude taken today by most corporate managements iv "Will this do good? If it is likely to do good, then put it in." I think this is rather charm-* teristic in my experience. MODERATOR All EARN: Thank you very much. Mr. Oviatt. MR. OVIATT: Dr. Bachman has pretty well covered the *uljeet. I don't know that all those who were safety conscious 23 or 30 yean ago were paternalistic, hut then- has Iwcn a definite change in philosophy. Twenty-tive or thirty years ago there were small infir maries that companies established with part-lime medical personnel, and they sat back waiting fur accidents bap|>eu Now they try to prevent accident*. They go to ureal letiutli.* and spend great sums of monev to present accidents, and i think this ts true of tnORt of the iargr corporation*. Keen* year large sums of [ 263 ] money are spent on fully-equipped hospitals is the plants and in the office buildings. They hare periodical examinations made of their employees. They have safety programs and training programs for the supervisors is the plants. All in all. industrial medicine has become a large part of the medical profesilwr and a very important cog in an industrial organi sation. I know from experience that the presidents of some of the divisions of large corporations pot up trophiesJo be competed for by the plants to see who can have the least lost-time accidents over a period. 'While the accident statistics may not bear out the statements that have been made, nevertheless, there is that consciousness and a striving all the time for bettering their record: and I think the rec ords over-all are being bettered every year. As long as employers are conscious of this safety and what it will gain, not only in a monetary way, but in a happy, weii-imit organization, they are not going to let up just because they have arrived at some degree of safety. 1 feel that is the philosophy today. MODERATOR AIXEARX; Thank you. Now we will move on to another question: "Have there been recently substantial changes in the law respecting the liability of a manufacturer to one injured by his product!" MR. BAlLE: That term "recently" is a relative term. If I would treat it as meaning in this century. I would <uty yes. there have been what von might call substantial changes, a change in -conceptand a change in application of principle. Prior to 1916. generally in this country, yon would have heard the rule stated that a manufacturer ha no liability for injuries re sulting front the use of his product beyond persons who sre in direct contractual relations with him. In 1916. bv the famous decision of Justice Cardoza, that prin-iple was finally broken down and in lieu of it was adopted the rule: if a manufacturer would recognize that a defectively made prodnet of hit involved an nnreasonable risk of barm to remote n*n or persons in the vicinity of remoie nsers. that then he was under duty to make it carefully and from that has grown the grneral principle now. that manufacturers are. in the main, liable for defects in their product* or for hazards against which they can guard, even to those person* who ha\c no contractual relationship with them. Probably more important than that lia l*oen the change in the application of that rule. N\-e<lle* to say. in any claim by remote users against a manufacturer. the problem of causation is a serious one. A [ 264 ] manufacturer r through many of time before i is then to deter manufacturer r years our cotir If there ha> liar courts--and I s unfortunate let tionable prmf ( two msin chai chances and ha mannfamtrer. -MR. OVl.i contractual rei; the courts arc little t<*> far. I ha op-ned a r is all right a- modern go tci to tli- h process equips teriui in order MR HAT but "c don t I great pnsciblllt to one of mia' of process eop than to work it. tll.V It !" along tl> hr right kind of industrial )iv-_with hazard secondare m> redesijr of eon'mi neve-- v |itii ' and : manufacturer way make bis product at one place and it mar travel through nuar banda over much territory and during a long period 0/ time before it becomes a factor in somebody'* injury. The problem is then to determine whether or not some activity on the part of the manufacturer teas the cause of that injury. In the main, in the past years atirwouna required rather specific proof of casual relationship. If there has been a major change of our late, it is the tendency of oar courts--and I am one of iliose who thinks it i* a very undesirable and unfortunate tendency--to accept-what I call hypothetical or ques tionable proof of relationship between cause and injury. I think those two main changes that have occurred have been very substantial changes aod have greatly broadened the acojte of the liability of the manufacturer. MR. OVTATT: I have very little to add. The concepts of non contractual relationship has been broadened the last few years. I think the courts arc inclined to stretch that doctrine perhaps sometimes a little too far. but that old doctrine of McPherson vs. Bnick Company has opened a new thought on this question of liability, which I think is all right as long as they don't take it ton far. MODERATOR A HEARN: Thank yon very much. Now. we will go on to the nest question: ""What are the possibilities of changing process equipment or methods of manufacture or use of a tosic ma terial in order to reduce the potential hazard!" MR. HATCH: I should like to speak at great length on this point, but we don't have the rime. It is a vert- important point. There are great possibilities for changing-a situation from one of great danger to one of relatively little danger through the proper design or choice of process equipment. I don't know of anything more frustrating than to work on a plant problem and to realize. while wrestling with it. that it should never have existed in the first place. Somebody along the line failed to give proper attention to the selection of the right kind of equipment ao as to avoid the problem. I feel that the industrial hygienists who. up to now. base been largely concerned with hazard control though application of ventilation and other such secondary measures must, in the future, give greeter consideration to redesign of the process equipment itself for purposes of hsiard control. There sre endless ntimlers of examples of the creation of an tinnecessary problem because of the failure of designers of proce-- equipment to incorporate into their initial thinting questions of hazard and to accept from the outset a responsibility to minimize the poten- [ 265 ] I flunk all the physician* present here will recall in their ex periences examples of epidemics of anxiety in groups of jieople be cause onr or more workers felt that he had developed illness from a particular exposure. He talked about it and others toon felt they had the same symptoms. In some instances we have sufficient control of the environment to know exactly what were the possibilities of expo sure and to say that it is impossible, under the amount of exposure for the epi^de to lie a bona fide exposure with resulting illness. There fore. the entire thing must lie on a psychosomatic basis. MODERATOR AHEARN: Now. we will go to another question: "How adequate are animal ex|>ertments as a meant of predicting tox icity for human lieings V- DR. ZAPP: If we r >-vin? o predict effect* on the human being. ^l^2_lhehMinn_2^inrJj^ns^f_wonl<l_li^_tl'eideaJ_j^iwnme^u ^mm^l. ^V^-j^j_jr^jj^^j1i_niiexerinietiwJ_animal. ^nd. therefore. we must accept other species a* an imperfect substitute. Now, perhaps the soundest hais for predicting the effects on man from tr.e erteev or. asnnais i that our internal anatomy and physiology are rather similar. If we are dealing witn a cnemicai thar proauces nver damage in dogs ant: oilier animals, then we can Ve tainy sure that n wnl produce liver damage in man. We cannot he too sure about the quantitative relationship. There are differences in sjiecies of susceptibility. ^fnw. withjdMbat. wi'li the recognition that animal exnerimen- ration l an tninerfepl -'Ib-!_.'l,. I think we caj_iopjs !- faction at result- that ne_J_avr_nhvnnrd_ni_2^ throng!, animal cxi'-rn:i*n:- over'the past 100 years. We have cer tainly |earnif a jot trout M. .iinnais. anil we nave, with the use of rierhana arbitrary factor* ot *e:'ev. setting no criteria tor safe nr*<-tics with rc!ict to man. By and large, we have been successful. There are exceptions. There are materials that affret man in waya that we cannot reproduce in any experimental animal, hut they are. fortunately, rather rare. MR. HATCH: 1 like the emphasis Dr. Zapp put on the quanti tative as|<ects. For obvious reasons, it i.s not possible to translate the findings on animals for direet application to man. 11 mv tA ATA eintm;iii < \! M In some cases tliev' rc hig! llv At i#' 111 1 A Mini in 'lllr M|i *r H(f*V huvrn r b**n r>f i#niiime. rwVii:niv, nitiir f i 11 * \\ an* - a :v 'rum liArr u it T !' -T i 1 =i 1 1 3I X1 th# 4inmi 1 van CM t .111 t n* ni\%\\ #rv lull T It^v linvy H .s i -11 t* .iit-r'fMl < \ .(Ml t* >0. 1 ti*T(* * n n mu.. tnnt >in im;i niny* *n nnt iftr'nn ! P art in 11 t* st HIV rtt tr\1r A .ItTS [ 2G 7] MODERATOR AHKAIU?: We have arrived at the moment when we would welcome question* or statement* from the rtoor. If anyone hu a question to ask about any phase of the discussion of the panel. I would welcome his getting up and giving his name and asking his question or making his suggestion. DR. ANNA M. BAET-TER. Johnvliopkin* I'niretwity: T know that the time is very limited, and we have not had time to cover all the questions. 1 would particularly like the panel to discuss two phases: one. the three questions that deul with the labeling laws and the importance of these: nd two. how can the consumer determine the composition of toxic materials sold tinder trade names? MODERATOR AHEARN: As a matter of fact, we had gronited those three together. Dr. McGee, will you take off on those questions! DR. MrOEE: How can consumers determine the composition of toxie materials sold under trade names! Sometimes if is almost im possible to do so. From the standpoint of a practicing physician treat ing scute poisoning, such information comes in too late for him to help his patient. His problem is that of taking a trade name and trying to had out what it means. He gets a chemical identity as the first step, and he still doesn't know what the material is in a pharma cologic tense. He has to have that material classified in a pharma cologic or toxicologic sense for the information to be of any help to him. If he doesn't know something of the hiologic properties of the material, if he doesn't know the site of action, he will have no hasit for intelligent therapy. Too frequently, in <mr present setup, that in formation comes to him a little late to l>e in the best interests of the patient. The labels are not bip enough to contain all of this informa tion which might lie required by the physician. There are in some packages inserts of descriptive material which can be of use to him in some instances. I think, frankly, we must improve techniques for getting the in formation that is required to the customer, and in turn, to his phvsieian where there has been an accident and resulting illness. Poison control information centers may help. MODERATOR AIIEARN. Thank you very much. Dr. Bach man, you are a chemical engineer 1 helieve everyliody would like to hear your specific answers to ihe question of whether a manufac turer of toxic material* can U- emm-elli-d to follow labeling restric tions and cautions as recommended by the Manufacturing Chemist;*' Association. Also, we would like 10 have your comments on the cur rent status of efforts hy a number of oriMnu.it urns. such. S' ibc Manu- [ 268 ] factcrag Che standardize h DR. BAi Association b lieve minufic of the M&nu: think it is hig passible, and tempt to do t tur.ng Chein: Now, as i of the most a cution In mi which I belie- Of eourv organizations ican Medical" get her and rr alwir-j going labeling. I th down into col the same sour be that author that a enforr .VODER. inch:.hug the I beiieve the ' seem* specr.raily :< positica of to DR. 7.AF make one com association* T Prec.r.::im...r. Assoc t:on a they -'.ii o.- law r- .-- 'i,ac tion* Tin- 1 verv -omo mil u .. . ! !.- OR. BACHMAN: I don't believe the Manufacturing Chemists' Association bss say authority. My answer to that is ao, I don't beHere manufacturer* can be compelled to follow the recommendations of the Manufacturing Chemists' Association. On the other band, I think it is highly desirable that they cooperate to the maximum degree possible, and I think the great majority of the manufacturers do at tempt to do this because most of them are members of the Manufaeturing Chemists' Association Now, as to the current status of these efforts, that is perhaps one of the most active committees in the Manufacturing Chemists' Associstion. In many cases, it has formulated codes and labels to be used, which I believe are being used. Of course. I think the ernx of the whole question here is for such organizations as the Manufacturing Chemists' Association. The Amer ican Medical Association, and the chemical specialty people to get to gether and try to formulate coordinated policy on labeling. 'We are always going to have difficulties if you hare several approaches to labeling. I think we must have a unified approach or. if it is broken down into compartments, these compartments must all originate from the same source. That is. they must originate from the same authority, be that authority one that results because people work together or one that is enforced by virtue of government action. ' MODERATOR AIIEARN: There are a nundier of associations, including the Manufacturing Chemists' Association, busy in this field. I believe tbe American Medical Association is equally active. , It seem* to me. Dr. Zapp. I should ask you to devote yourself specifically to the question. "FTov can consumer* determine the com position of toxic materials olil under trade names?" DR. ZAPP: Before I answer that. Mr. Ahearc. I would like to make one comment on the eurrent status of the work of these various associations. The Manufacturing Chemists' Association, through their Precautionary Committee, the Chemical Specialties Manufacturing Association, and the American Medical Association have agreed that they will work together towards wording of some uniform ]nlH.hng law or at least a set of principles that will guide these various a-socia. tiuns. The C S M A. group is now meeting in Philadelphia on this vers- same subject. That is the current status as far as 1 know. With respect to Question 21. I think that all three of the ngencies I have just mentioned. the Manufacturing Chemists' Association, . ` [ 269 ] *a?\ -- . AB~ i-jj I 1%-/It* r~~z "N-.-v mm** H ft k C.SJI-A., and A.M.A. agree that there should lie more information u' i,on produel labels than there is st the present rime. I beliere with respect.to the industrial uses of chemicals. that industry is fairly factorrr. our a: we mean Ip- adforcemeat to pr well satisfied with M.C.A.'s principles of laiwling as expressed is its ferem answer. Manual of Warning Labels, with which 1 presume all of you arc . familiar. However, when it come* to the consumer and narticuigrir the nser of amall packages of denning powder ortoothpaste orjjrment nr wliat have vou. it is ugreeil Hint there should he more information ou the label so mat the user will have some i<Ten*"q7^ie_artiyeinjjTf' l dienis jjnd_nmr_jnna_jiMj^(|ur^s_im^n^u^n_jKi_ai(ieotid>>exv sure to material. From the r munitv from lia labeling lw. T1 facturer to hrn. people who ir hereof io it* n standard. One of the moat frequent inquiries I anppose that we pet in the I du Pont Company is. what happens if a child swallows a little du Pont cement f It was never intended for that purpose, of course, hut the \ question is. what happens? Fortunately, the answer to that is. "prae- Considerate the laws to protthe law* as sue! view that the la tit-ally nothing, don't worn- aliout if": hut that's the thing that the necessarily a la person needs to he reassured about. The physicians, on the other band, ability of legisl. would like to see on the label the kind of information that would enable there to treat eases of aeeidemal exposure. Now. with all the good will in the world on the part of these organizations, there are still many practical difficulties involved in formulating a set of lalwling principles that will do the job to everyone's satisfaction. For tha: re lation should be uvrncss upon . that broad gi-n able to fliorr i|<l The householder really want's to know how to keep out of trouble more eff-ctively and avoid calling the M.D.'s. And so it goes. Now. I Think That something is going to h done, and our of all speeifii- od th:ir A- vmi ktK this activity there will ....... . niociuc' ;r.:r.rinaTinn on The laliels. 1 are l>ad E'-n M^ar^'hilr. w* hnv# ?!# r^ourr** iJr n aI>oiu_ fhp and imming rise poison control centers. There are one nr wo compilations that give ! usa eo<i ni-ai oi inrormanon h"oih tlie -r am- name products. and Dr. or four ferir'-.il 2$ SPpa^.ilr Tiodge of me i. mversitv m Km resirr -. out wirn an t*nrveio. din.iiu."-' ilia; !.. Pdia wilier "in give more niionr.aiion c- -mat rvpe i-4111. ij^imarelv. from Hie stn ill: ;r the niaiiurar'iirer i* 'l-e uesi stmii-.- oi ;s T.nlion if von need it. In ho"TVi*r. ?he\ !i: most ot these cases where intnrmniion is neeneu m n liurty. I think it can be best obtained by getting in tonch with the manufacturer or tiif imirxk'r m.v r statute ami n- bia branch office. tivrh !'r'tM.r : MODERATOR AlIEARN: Tlmnl.- v,, Dr 7!nm. Mr Rnile. I to fln niN. *is>on vmi r i i. answer tins miration JC i *.Ar* lA^hn*.* !hw< up r*%i.e-i-! o rfHirrinc warn- r ilili am! preventive measures as n. tu\n- nidllDi^ . kpr i> oNciu-i. M: Al.e.r" in" !.*' ' *> .. tln-v v he i MR DAlLE: I th:nV there we firs' have .to define the sense in rrht^h th* i*ptn ;: v.- 11s. iin- woni m me mh w.-.T: rp|,-s.: . . n* sense that i-oiim'iam-e Hssui-es iminuniTv hi v nr tiif mnU' ] mat. r:. 1 <- [270] facturer. our answer would be on? tiling: and on the other bond, _we_mM0_hy drM^j-^s_jn_nir_^rii!ir_jof_i7fficirm_rggLnirrirni and fn^orcrrapntJi^iirofpj^^jjiihhcjFroiT^iHiin'. Mhmk^^het^Js^adjXfcrent ins'vtr. From the first staodpoiat, labeling law* ai such do not give im munity from liability to a manufacturer by mere compliance with the labeling law. Tlie common law itself imposes a dutv upon the maun- facturer to bring to > lie attention 01 tnc uaenoMnjjirjjlyjj jjyl people who arc iu the vicinity oi ns use. the dangers which are in herent in ita. use or mav flow trom it. lie nii^i_tmynly_nMththat standard. Considering it from the second standpoint--of the adequacy of the laws to protect the pnblic'froin injure--1 think we have to sav that tlie laws as sm.ii ere inadequate. 1 am also one of those who has the view that the law* will always be inadequate, because 1 flunk there is necessarily a lag between technology' and its development, and the ability of legislators to art. For that reason. 1 have always felt that effective labeling legis lation should be broad and general in its terms and dejiend for effec tiveness upon detailed and limited regulations issued pursuant to that broad general stature. 1 think when this is done, we are then able to more quickly adopt regulations to changing conditions and to more effectively enable industry to comply. Iiecsuxe they can be more specific and thus more clearly understood. As you know, the unrulier of lala-ling statutes that exist today are bad. ven the person who confines his attention to that subject and nothing else, and there are few people who do. not only has three or four federal statures with which lie must deal, hut there are some 2S separate state statutes, and then there is a multitude of lo-ai or dinances that have other effects upon us. They have many advantages from the standpoint of imposing criminal liability. In all instances, however, they are not effective in enabling authorities to take out of the markel tlie products that do not meet the requirements of those statutes, and needless to say. the only way that you can really effec tively prevent harm from sulwtance* that are improperly in the mar ket ia to exclude them from the market hv confiscation. Mr. Abeam. 1 would sav by way of summary that. yes. our ial*eling laws arc inadequate. They need to lw changed and 1 am lioi-eful they will be. MR WaTKH^s ; 1 Think the attdien<-e would be interested in tho question nf whether industries should tell their employees that the material they are liaiidliiu.' is toxu- or_.cnrcmucenic. buit, and at the present tinted understand that further auita amount- inf to $80,000 are before the courts. I am told that only about half a dozen of the states have adequate exemptions to prevent each mis interpretations. Only about three weeks ago 1 discussed this with representatives of the Manufacturing Chemists' Association, and it is my understanding that they will take steps to try to bring proper exemptions into the laws of the other states. MR. T. J. LAXI GAN. General Electric Company: I would like to hear discussion on the question: "How is it best possible to main tain a continuing safety awareness among employees engaged in hazardous occupations involving the use of toxic materials''' MR HATCH: To have an effective safety program the people who are attempting *_ Ho smiL maintain among tnemseives an awareness 01 satetv needs that is stronger than the safety awareness ot ihe emoinvees. 1 have no particular procedure to suggest since I have bad no special experience in developing and maintaining such awareness. I do know from experience, however, that there is great risk if such awareness is nor maintained and developed on tne part of evervuodv concerned. We have all seen good programs tweak down because of iacit oi maintenance of awareness. MODERATOR AHEARN: Dr. Zapp, would you comment ? DR Z.\PP: 1 will onlv add to what Ted Hatch has said. I think the promotion, of convnual awareness ot th -piety nrngram among etr.r:c.vec - rcs"or,bilnv of suicrrtsion. Supervisors will ^flh^ojj^^j^vknowjhvingnerjuariajitini^nt wont* nietn io do it. Now, when safety policy is set at the top level of company manage -- ment and is passed on down through the various snpervisory channels to the employees, then I believe the program can lie maintained ade quately. and the employees will have a continuing awareness of the program. If the foreman goes around an area without wearing a mask where a mask is required or without wearing safety glasses in an area where safety glasses are required, obviously, by his example, he is going to undermine the whole program. If. on the other hand, he goes in with a mask on or goes in with safety glasses on and insists that other* do likewise.-he has s good chance of enforcing the rules and maintaining the continued awareness that tins question speaks of. MODERATOR AHEARN. Thank you. Mr. Uailr. you are the general counsel of in insurance company It seems io me you are the panelist to answer these two questions: "What method- ar available to insurance carriers to assist their "insureds in tin- pi-oteetmu of emplorees and the purchasing public from the hazards of toxic ma- terialaf" and. ``What method* \re available to insurance earner* to txDMt mail industries in the detection and control at hazardout con* ditionsf" mr. bails 1 think those question* are primarily directed to the insurance carriers' place in contributing towards the reduction at accidents in industry, either among the employees or in users of the product or in third parties who might be otherwise affected by the ac tivity of the employees of an industry. 1 think that it can probably come under eight points: First is the function that Dr. Zapp ha already mentioned, that is. through the sale of the insurance there is brought to the attention of top management the importance of the safety program. It has a V very direct influence on the amount of coats, a very substantial item i > in the cost of any industry. By bringing that to bear on the top management, you get the influence which Dr. Zapp suggested, which is to necessary, of that philosophy going down through the various echelons of the company. Also. I think it is that very force that brought almut the changes ' i in the philosophy of industry that we referred to earlier. 1 think the r * safety awareness of industry ha* been, to a great extent, brought about by the influence of the salesmanship, if yon will, of the insur I ance industry. But in a mor- practical sense, the insurance industry i contributes through its engineering facilities and its suggestions and participation in the development of safety programs in any industry. This consists of arranging and.i-ondii'ring safety meetings, distribut ing the proper typo of literature, and the projier type of postingv i Secondly, by its own engineering, it supplements the safety program of a company in Ascertaining where thr hazards in that industry i exist*. And in doing so. it approaches it. 1 think, with a greater ol*- jeettvity, because it is uninfluenced by those unconscious influences which company people are subject to. such ns the coals of changing a process, the reduction in time, or the increase in tim* which some r\ change of process to incorporate a safety fnetor would involve. > - Another way in which they can contribute is in the preparation I*' of a catastrophe plan for specific hazard*. Insurance carriers can aid \u in the development of drills so tlmt companies nre prepared in ihe event those catastrophes occur. Another manner in which ihev aid :> in the supplying of infor mation for the preparation jml distribution of safety material. The insurauee industry acquires the collective knowledge of ninny indus tries and con bring that knowledge to the aid of a particular company. The insurance carrier *li aids in t:.- preparation of purchasing - [ 274 ] tv agent manual*, t material* into a production pers brought in. in o- Finally. 1 t make > to main culfy that occur* avoid accident* * to slacken urt. think the fact ti. come in reguUri people at the pr it is that habit v. MODERAT rate oo inerhod* triesf .MR. BAIL! should he drawn are able to erniu sound safety ; small niimlx-r o; specialize in the* carrier* become t cal talent wIik:; MU. ovia: panic* mok in n tirm on fhe*e tosafety device* t; ' Mil. I1.1IL- MU (> VIA 7 Miialler conip.m: trained e.sprr'* * MK It A 33.E Ml; "Vl.\- IIIe on: ..li ---- : 11 IM.ikillJ cell.- Tlirv i-o r IMeO'i . f. i * gent manual*, which i nyiieihod of coordinating the receipt of toxic materials into a plant, to that knowledge commit to the attention of the production personnel of the nature of the product that is being brought in. in order that proper safety prevention* can be taken. Finally, 1 think the contribution that the insurance carrier can make is to maintain the awarene** of safety. I think the great diffi culty that oecurs in many industries is that von develop a program to avoid accident* aud prevent accident*. It has a peak, and then it tenda to slacken off. Every once iu awhile it needs to lie rejuvenated. I think the fact that the engineer* of the insurance carrier and its staff come in regularly and constantly bring safety to the attention of the l>eople at the production level helps esi.iMish the haiiit of safety aud it is that halm which in the long run will prevent many accidents. MODERATOR AlJEARN. On that Mine jioint. will you elabo rate on method* available to insurance carriers to assist small indus tries T MR. Ii.MLE: 1 might sav this: 1 think there is a distinction that should lie drawn there In some industries, liecause of their site, they re able to employ the technical talent which is resiuirrd in effecting sound safety program: whereas in other industries, because of the small niimlwr of employees they are not aide to have people who will specialize in those particular problem*. In that instance, the insurance carriers bevome another arm of the company and supply it with techni cal talent winch n doesn 't have available within its own personnel. MR OVl.VTT. Mr. Haile. isn't it true that the insurance com panies look to tho larger manufacturer* many tun*-* to get informa tion on these toxic material*, on the processes that are used and the safety device* that may be necessary? MR. HAILE: Very much so. MR. 0V1ATT: And then they can impart that Knowledge to the smaller companies that are not in a position to hire these highly trained expert*?" MR. HAII-E: 1 would sav that is definitely true. MR. OV1ATT. There is also another way--I :h:nk you will bear me out on this--that insurance companies have been helpful. That is in making counts--fume ennui*, petrographic ana.' --* .uni *n furtli. They gu inio the plants to make the-.- ami in..*" their recom mendation*. Mli/HAll.K Ye*, that i* right. I *. *Sit iQl. OVIATT: I would like to odd jut oat word if I may to the earlier question on efforts to develop adequate labeling and to standardize labeling. Those on the panel who spoke to that question failed, I think, to mention the fact that the Manufacturing Chemists' Association at present has a law, a proposed federal law for labeling and for the far more important matter of confiscation. You can have criminal statutes all over the place, but throwing a mau in jail or fin* ing him $10,000 will not save the life of someone using a chemical that is not properly labeled. I think this confiscation feature is all-impor* tant. This new law that M.C.A. proposes does take care of that ade quately as to the defining of what a poison ia and setting forth testa for determining a poison. Now. whst trill become of that law. no one knows. That ia the present status of the M.C.A.' efforts. . " MODERATOR AHEARX: Thank you. ^Ri_BAgMAX: ^jronj^Jike^^^omraenMnMferpneejo^eerlier Jf. questions. To ma:c`.aio saicr ay arene-s von must say_tnut t company aas to tell its employees what the nature of the materials is .whifih_iftgr arehandlinp. whether they are toxic or carcinogenic, becausevouean never haTe a safety procram unless you give the peonle_wormg_with toxic or carcinogenic materials suer, miormation. I don't think that was adequately cnnhasiceo ortore. - I think es far as the question of the most economical and best way a small plant can get help on problems of toxicity and industrial hygiene, the obvious answer is a good consultant. 1 don't know if there is enough consulting work done in a continuous manner with the different smaller companies. DR. THOMAS L. SHIPMAN. Los Alamos Scientific Laboratory: I would like to have this question discussed: "If a manufacturer con forms to the highest standards of an industry in the manufacture of his product, will that be a complete defense in an action against him for injuries resulting from his product t" In placing this question before the panel. I would like to remind them of the experience of tome of the elecincal product manufacturers and their difficulties with beryllium. MODERATOR AIIEARX: Mr Oviatt. let me ask you to answer That quest ion. MR. OVIATT: I think that can bo categorically answered as "no." There ha' - been cases where a court has held that even though the standards of the industry have been followed, the highest stand ards. that under the circumstances those standards weren't high [2T6] enough. Earn and go beyost industry The MODER. thing to that MR. !U manufacturer that the law statute, by ; standard, cat under those r Now. ic i court or jury standards of . finder to u spread ador' determining have said th; ness. can s.v reasonable 'i 1 don't thini carries* pra12 jurors car I might I have alws- man he ever MR > l:ke to hsv<procedure r required f particular'product i' It I' : iosu mau chaser, wr- hit i- -- VR Im.inv' .I ri '!,: l.s* ,, . * ra? ' IWWU uwjrreUJ UWI wua wprwae?w^^^^wjiUWiril'J ->7 enough. Etch individual manufacturer mutt tarn his own product tad go beyond, under certain circumstances. the standards act by the industry. That is so even though labeling laws are followed. MODERATOR All EARN: Mr. Baile. would you care to add some* thing to that answer? * MR. HAILE: By way of addition: The responsibility of the manufacturer is essentially one to conform with the standard of eare that the law impose*. Now. that standard may he imposed either hy statute, hy judicial decision or by what is probably a pretty vague standard, namely, the standard of care of a reasonable man acting under those circumstances. Now. in determining whether that third standard has been met. a conn or jury should take into consideration what the practices snd standards of an industry are. but they are only a measure for the fact finder to use and are not binding upon them. In other words, the wide spread adoption of a particular method or practice will he a test for determining whether or not reasonable eare was used. But the count have said that 12 lay people, who don't know a thing about the businew. ean sav yon could hare used more care. I can't believe that reasonable rare can he any more than an industry would use. because I don't think industry would ever adopt, as a widespread practice, a careless practice if there were a safe one. The court seems to think that 12 jurors can sav they can. I might say. whenever I have been.confronted with that problem. I have always remembered the one judge who said the only reasonable man he ever knew was hi* wife's first husband. MR. SCinVENZFEIR, JR., Brush Ben-Ilium Company: I would like to have the expression of the panel on the distinction m labeling procedure between what is required for a retail product aod what is required for industrial products. It ha* l>een inferred that it is not particularly important to exereise greater care in labeling if the product is to he handled in commercial use. though it may I* in retail. It is implied in another question that the manufacturer of the toxir material ean pass the responsibility on to the corporate pur chaser. who. in mm. passes the hazard on to his employer. I wonder if that i really correct MR H.Ml.E. If 1 understand your f|iietinn. it i this Whether a manuta--iurer lui* * duty with resp--,t to giving warnings as to the attributes ot the pruiliiv! 10 the intimate eniiMitiiers "here lie sells, let's say. u, n middle purchaser win. repackage* n--or somethin? like that* S; UR. SCH'WEXZFEIR, JR.: No, intermittent handler it another i production concern, like this bulk packaging that waa in one of the earlier questions of the program. MR. BAJLE: Your question, then, concerns the liability of the . manufacturer who distributes in bulk to people who handle that prod uct in transportation and who are employee* of the purchaser who use it in some menu factoring process f MR. SCHWEXZFEIR. JR.: Right. I t MR. BA1LE: I would say by way of answering that, first of ail. i I.C.C. regulations, of course, control to a large degree the require ments of labeling in transportation. Now. they are designed primarily for the protection of employees who are handling it in transportstion. and, of course, conformance with that is required and if there I is a lack of conformance and injurs* results to employees of carriers ! who are transporting it. liability would be imposed. From the standpoint of the employees of the purchaser of the product, the problem there, as I see it. is this: The law imposes upon the manufacturer the obligation to give warning, reasonably calcu lated to call to the attention of the users or potential users of the i product the hszards that tre apparent in that produrt. ,1 Now. notice, it is a duty of reasonshleness that is imposed upon .1 them. It would he an utter impossibility for the manufacturer of esr[ hon tetrachloride, let's say. to go to even* employee in even* manu i facturing plant that uses that and inform them as to the hszards that ;! are involved in the use of it. So. the law recognizes, under those cir cumstances. that if the manufacturer bring* to the attention of the purchaser whose employees are going to use it. the hazards of that i product, or if the purchaser without having it brought to bis attention is aware of the hazards of that produrt. then there is no obligation on i the part of the manufacturer to inform them, because the law never requires a man to do a vain act. Yon don't have to tell somebody the !ii dangers in a product when he already knows them. Then the law im poses upon that employer the duty of providing his employees with a safe place to work and of passing on knowledge of hazards to the employees so the employee can take such srtion and exercise such care as is necessary for his own protection. Does that answer the question or imi 1 si ill missing it MR SClIWKXZFF.ITt. JR.. Thors it Thank you MODERATOR A HEARN. Now. i* there another question from the floor* ! 2TS ] m^Vii' MR XT W hear discussion n governmental err control of hazard MODERATE answer that ipic*: MR. HATVt had in miml--ob Industry, pr that can lie best order that the pr vers* specific way to make sure of York, where i:mi' for industry, it iinciuding repr- who supply rn labor unions. *ai: Now 1 tinn ing of this pros'' lem pertair.ii**.* ' ticular imiiistru*e of that -.1..-T br reason."!1' from this |ii.m* regulation wi:r.-l. trations Takfor rontrol o: .* governing it- <*e- This is i--.. ar made for *: hv those iieOf'j and exp-riein those who Ho lation " i::> ii " : TV. ha.l " SIMIW P'i!......-- r'e-il-1*ct'' t Util* M' 1 mil - ' '  MR. V. W. HODGE, Koppcrs Company, lne.: 1 would like to hear discussion on ihe question of bow industry can best work with governmental groups in order to be certain that regulations for tlie control of hazardous materials are proper and reasonable. MODERATOR AHEARN: Mr. Hatch, we had assigned you to answer that question. MR. HATCH: I am-not certain wbat the framer of this question had in mind---obviously, there are many different answers to it. Industry, presumably, does have a large volume of information that can be best utilized by working with governmental agencies in order that the proper regulations be formulated. I have in mind one very specific way in which industry is working with an official agency to make sure of proper regulations, and that is in the State of New York, where under the procedures for developing or regulating codes for industry, it is required that.an advisory committee he formulated, including representatives from the industries directly involved, those who supply equipment to he used in industry, representatives from labor unions, and so on. Now, I think the important point here is this: in the very fram ing of this procedure, recognition is given to the fact that the prob lem pertaining to the use of a particular toxic substance in one par ticular industry may he different from the problem that arises in the use of that same toxic sulistance m some other industry, and that to be reasonable regulations must recognize this. Regulations developed from this point of view are distinguished, for example, from a general regulation which consists principally of a list of permissible concen trations. Take carbon monoxide, for example: adequate regulations for control of this hazardous gas should be different from regulations governing its control in steel mills. This is recognized in the New York procedure, and provisions are made for the active participation in formulation of industry codes by those people from the industries who do have needed information and experience. Obviously, to lie objective, it must l<e agreed by all those who do participate that the purpose is to come out with a regu lation which will, in fact, prevent ill health or accidents. We had in this room not long ago a public meeting which had the same purpose here m Pennsylvania. Prior 10 ihe officio: adoption of regulations pertaining to certain iudun:il hazard. people from the industries who could bring important Information and experience to tear on the problem were invited to atlrnd and contribute sugg'-s. nnns which would make the final code more effective. 1 U-lieve that the industries that do have this information should welcome nnd. indeed. hould search for opportunities ?o bring this information to tlie official i agencies and work with them in translating it into reasonable regu lations. MODERATOR A HEARN: Now, we have room for about one a more question. 'Wlio has a question to aakT R. C. ERICKSON. Aluminum Company of America: How would you propose to bridge the gap between safety and the business re vealing trade secrets when such became necessary in the interest of 1 safety I DR. BACHMAN: Of course, the question of trsde secrets is rather au interesting question. If you have rather s fundamental patent on a process, yon usually are adequately protected. Let'a try to eonfine ourselves to the ares where we say the patent protection ia not available. I think this is going to lie s tough one. Frankly. I think about the only way that it could be handled would be--well. there are two-ways. If the number of companies in volved were small. I think it likely that Company A possessing the trade secret might be quite williug to make the information available to Company B with the sole restriction that this information not be naed by Company B except insofar as it was used for the purposes of protecting the health of the employees or for rendering the work safely. If the aecret information or the confidential information, let us say, were to be used for purposes of pront in the manufacture of the item, there Company A would properly expert a remuneration from Company B. This is fairly standard without the clement of safety. There are a lot of companies today that go out and delilierately buy confidential information rather than patent infonnation. When you go beyond the relationship existing between the few companies and try and say that this is something that would l>e broadly applic able to a great numlier of companies. I don't know h-vw von could do that except through some form of perhaps very fine social feeling, let us say, social consciousness on the part of the company possessing those trad* secrets and indicating s willingnoi.-. to make available tu their fellow countrymen at large such information. 1 think that is the only other possible approach whereby you can achieve that. So. I think you have two cases: one. where (he number of com panies involved are limited, this can hi- handled. Where the compan ies involved are not limited and vers- l.irg- then you mui drpciul. I believe, entirely upon tin- <>i-i*1 r-nnsciouMi-->s of the m.-mag'-mewt <( the company holding the trade secret. - [ 2S0 1 MODERAT undertake eonce cullies to a mac DR. BACIl - lieve people are MODERAI wishes of tbe a Mr. Bade. Mr. < the contribunoi bad a distisgni a ver>- prontab 1 would lik audience. Yost i has inspired tl audience to ha' &3dM I-H.F COMMOTES oweaa committb OL A UMft M. ClM 4 a UAXt 140. CmC a & Him ao. ti .................................................................................................... mwi min l A UMIK nO_......................................................................................................m.iaa. Ml SAaa (mm 0t. mA.. iCsiootam*oA................................................................... 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