Document npZ6Q64wzXZnBbRYjDg08oeY8

AIA-7 SWETONic-Direct 14 1 2A Q What kind of research did you do? Well/ we had been collecting/ you know, basic 3 stuff out of the/ out of the medical literature. 4 Q When you say "we/" who are you talking 5 about? 6A Well/ Hill and Rnowlton and Johns-Manville. 7 Q So Hill and Rnowlton had a relationship 8 with Johns-Manville at that time? 9 A Yes. 10 Q Okayr go ahead. 11 A I can recall at one point a meeting at which 12 somebody commented on the fact that we had more than 13 4/000 papers on asbestos and health in the file at that 14 particular point in time. 15 Q Nowr when you say at that point I found 16 about 4/000 articles on asbestos and health/ at what 17 point in time are we discussing/ just so I know, about 18 1968? 19 A Well/ it was probably later than that. We're 20 probably talking '71 or something in that ballpark. 21 Q Did Hill and Rnowlton maintain their own 22 file on asbestos and health at that time? 23 A Yesf they did have -- yeah/ they did. 24 Q And who was the custodian of that file? 25 A Probably a fellow named Carl Thompson. Brody & Geiser (201) 738-8555 or (212) 732-0644 AIA-7 SWETONIC-Direct 15 1 Q Is Carl still with the company, do you 2 know? 3A No, he's retired. 4 Q Now, after Carl left what happened to that 5 file? 6A No, but it's different than that. What happened 1 was that when Manville moved to Denver all of the Hill 8 and Knowlton files were turned over to the trade 9 association. 10 Q What trade association? 11 A The Asbestos Information Association. 12 Q Okay. And when was that? 13 A Late 1971 probably. 14 Q Okay. So Hill and Knowlton didn't retain 15 copies? 16 A Not to the best of my knowledge. 17 Q Now, you said you did some research for 18 Mansville when you took over in this public relations 19 job. Did you ever document the earliest articles that 20 you can recall concerning asbestos and health? 21 A I'm sorry, I don't guite understand. 22 Q Let me rephrase the question. Did you 23 breakdown the articles into the various diseases, or 24 did you just lump medical articles together when you 25 were doing --. Brody & Geiser (201) 738-8555 or (212) 732-0644 AIA-7 SWETONIC-Direct It 1 affiliated with, as I recall, St. Luke's Hospital in, I 2 can't remember where it was. I just remember it was 3 St. Luke's Hospital someplace. 4 Q When you had this job in public relations, 5 did you consult or collaborate with any other asbestos 6 companies? 7A Not until the trade association was formed. 8 Q And when was that? 9A In, I think, maybe late 1970. 10 Q Can you recall with respect to the paper 11 on Asbestos Insulation and Health what the earliest 12 articles you were able to find in the medical 13 literature were implicating asbestos insulation as a 14 health hazard? 15 A 16 No. Q Do you remember from what decade they 17 came? 18 A No, not really. I remember better the, you 19 know. when the diseases were found, you know, in the 20 medical literature as opposed to their association with 21 any particular product. 22 Q Okay. Well, can you recall with respect 23 to asbestosis the earliest articles you were able to 24 find in the medical literature? 25 A My recollection is that they were probably in Brody & Geiser (201) 738-8555 or (212) 732-0644 AIA-7 SWETONIC-Direct 19 1 the 1930s. 2 Q Do you remember the authors of any of 3 those papers? 4 A No. 5 Q Do you remember what the papers said? 6 A Just basically that heavy exposure to asbestos 7 insulations or asbestos could causer you knowr 8 asbestosis. 9 Q Okay. Did you have any discussion with 10 any physicians or any other representatives of Manville 11 concerning those findings? 12 MS. FIGUEREDO: By those findings you 13 mean? 14 Q The papers dating back to the 1930s on 15 asbestosis. 16 A I'm not quite sure about what you mean by 17 discussions. 18 Q Well* did you have discuss with Dr. 19 Wright, for instance, about the articles you found 20 dating, concerning asbestosis back in the 1930s? 21 A Probably no specific discussions. 22 Q Was it part of your job to communicate 23 your findings to someone else within the company? 24 A Well, it's not findings. You know, we had the 25 processes -- basically we had this great body of Brody & Geiser (201) 738-8555 or (212) 732-0644 AIA-7 SWETONIC-Direct 2: 1 essentially looking at, is to try and determine what 2 sort of, what would make sense in that regard. 3 Q Did you reach any conclusions or did 4 anyone working with you reach any conclusions 5 concerning the reliability of an established threshold 6 limit value? 7A In other words, would it work? 8 Q Right. 9A Yeah, I think they believed that there was a 10 level that could be set by the government that would 11 protect people, if that's what you mean. 12 Q Do you know what that was? 13 A No, they thought, I think, you know, in the low 14 numbers of fiber per cubic centimeter, whether it was 15 going to be -- whether it would be two or four or five 16 or somewhere in that general ballpark. 17 Q Did you also do research and prepare a 18 background paper concerning asbestos and lung cancer? 19 A I'm sure I did. 20 Q Okay. And who did you consult, or what 21 did you consult in preparing that paper? 22 A The same processes as the other ones. 23 Q Can you recall the first articles that you 24 were able to -- the earliest articles you were able to 25 find demonstrating an association between asbestos and Brody & Geiser (201) 738-8555 or (212) 732-0644 AIA-7 SWETONIC-D i rect 2. 1 lung cancer? 2A My recollection, probably in the late '40s, 3 something like that. 4 Q Can you recall who the author of those 5 articles were? 6A No, I have the recollection it was a British 7 paper, but I'm not sure. 8 Q Can you recall any particular 9 epidemiological studies that you found which 10 established an association between asbestos and lung 11 cancer? 12 A Well, that's what I'm referring to, 13 epidemiological studies. 14 Q Okay. Old Manville ever give you any of 15 their own data with respect to their own employees when 16 you were writing up these background papers? 17 A No. 18 Q So this was basically a search of what was 19 out there at the time? 20 A Yes, that's correct. 21 Q Did you put your conclusions as to when 22 this first association became known in this background 23 paper? 24 A Most likely.I mean, that would bethe standard 25 way I would write things. So Iwouldassume I did Brody & Geiser (201) 738-8555 or (212) 732-0644 AIA-7 SWETONic-Direct 24 1 that. 2 Q Did anyone, to your knowledge, come back 3 to you and disagree with your conclusions? 4A No. 5 0 Did you submit those papers to Dr. Wright 6 again for review? 7A Oh, yes. 8 Q And did he disagree with the determination 9 or conclusions that you reached concerning asbestos and 10 lung cancer? 11 A No, not to the best of my recollection. 12 Q Did you also attempt to determine whether 13 there was a safe level of exposure in terms of 14 contracting lung cancer from asbestos? 15 A The process of looking at TLV's for asbestos was 16 just applied across the board for all the diseases. 17 Q Did you ever do a background paper 18 concerning exposure to asbestos and mesothelioma? 19 A Again, I'm -- don't remember precisely doing 20 that, but I assume I did, because we had a great body 21 of those papers, eight or nine of one type or another. 22 So that would be naturally one to be done. 23 Q Do you recall the earliest articles that 24 you found in Manville's files demonstrating an 25 association between asbestos and mesothelioma? Brody & Geiser (201) 738-8555 or (212) 732-0644 AIA-7 SWETONIC-Direct 31 1 and Certain-Teed in the late 1960s retaining Hill and 2 Knowlton concerning the issues of asbestos and health? 3 A When would this have been? 4 Q '67, '68, '69. 5A No, I thought it was just Manville. 6 Q Did Hill and Knowlton have its own medical 7 people at the time that assisted Manville? 8 A You mean doctors, professionals. 9 Q Doctors. 10 A No. 11 Q What type of assistance did it give 12 Manville other than writing copy for them and helping 13 them with press releases, that type of thing? 14 A Just, you know, just counsel them on, as 1 said, 15 on public relations aspects of the issue. 16 Q Did Hill and Knowlton give Manville any 17 technical support? 18 A No. 19 Q Did they ever, during the time that you 20 worked there, counsel Manville on how to deal with 21 lawsuits arising out of asbestos? 22 A No. 23 Q Can you recall what specifically Hill and 24 Knowlton advised Manville to do with respect to the 25 problem of asbestos and health? Brody & Geiser (201) 738-8555 or (212) 732-0644 AIA-7 SWETONIC-Direct 37 1A I believe in late 1970. 2 Q And was that patterned after any other 3 organization, to your knowledge? 4A Yes, an Asbestos Information Association type of 5 a group in England. 6 Q Do you know whether Hill and Knowlton had 7 advised the AIA in England prior to that time? 8 A Yes, they had. 9 Q Do you recall in the 1970s what companies 10 founded the AIA of North America? 11 A I could name a couple. It's in some of the 12 material I passed on for the deposition before. 13 Certain-Teed, of course Manville, Raybestos-Manhattan, 14 National Gypsum. It seems to me there were seven or 15 eight. GAF, that's all I can remember of the initial. 16 Q Was Owens-Coming a member? 17 A I don't believe so. 18 0 What about Baldwin, Ehret, Hill, do you 19 recall that, or Keene Company? 20 A No. 21 Q Celotez or Philip Carey? 22 A Philip Carey Ithink may have come in in the 23 second group much later. They expanded it from the 24 original seven or eight up until about 22 or 23. And I 25 can't, again, I also can't remember too many of them. Brody & Geiser (201) 738-8555 or (212) 732-0644 AIA-7 SWETONIC-Direct 48 1 Q On page 3 the sentence says; "First, there 2 is no doubt that the inhalation of substantial amounts 3 of asbestos being lead to increased rates of various 4 types of lung disease, including two forms of cancer. 5 These are facts which cannot be denied, even if they do 6 not apply in all circumstances and under all 7 conditions." Is that a statement that you believe was 8 true in 1973? 9A Yes. 10 Q Do you believe that the members of the 11 organization ascribed to that statement? 12 A Yes. 13 Q All right. I'd like to read you the next 14 sentence: "The medical literature is full of solid 15 evidence linking asbestos to disease. In my office I 16 have on file more than 2,000 medical papers dealing 17 with the health risk of asbestos, and hundreds more are 18 published every year." At that time in 1973 did you 19 have at least 2,000 papers in your office -- 20 A Sure. 21 Q --on asbestos disease? 22 A Probably was more. 23 Q Can you recall ever making that statement? 24 A Yes. I mean --. 25 Q Okay. Let me just go on to the next Brody & Geiser (201) 738-8555 or (212) 732-0644 AIA-7 SWETONIC-Dicect 49 1 sentence: "Secondly, the spreading of alarm over the 2 health risks of asbestos has as its prime spokesman one 3 of the most talented medical publicists of the age. Dr. 4 Irving Selikoff of New York City Mount Sinai Hospital." 5 Did you believe that at the time? 6 A Uh-huh. 7 Q Do you recall stating that? 8 A I don't recall stating it. 9 Q I ask you to turn to page four. 10 The first full paragraph says: "While Dr. Selikoff has, 11 in his zeal, unquestionably painted a far darker 12 pictures than the facts warrant, we should always 13 remember in his defense that the insulation workers he 14 has been studying for far more than a decade were and 15 still are dying from asbestos-related disease at an 16 appalling rate." Do you believe that statement to be 17 true in 1973? 18 A Yes. 19 Q Did the members of the organization in 20 1973, to your knowledge, ascribe to that statement as 21 well? 22 A I would think so. 23 MS. FIGOEREDO: One second. 24 (Witness and Counsel confer). 25 Q I'd ask you to look at page 7. Brody & Geiser (201) 738-8555 or (212) 732-0644 AIA-7 SWETONIC-Direct 51 1 effectively represent an entire industry in dealing 2 with the press and with government officials." Do you 3 believe that to be true at the time? 4A Yes. 5 Q I read this paragraph to you before/ and 6 I'd like to give you the opportunity to address it. 7 The second paragraph on Page 8. It says: 8 "Fortunately, and properly the Association has had the 9 wisdom to alter its original limited concept of its 10 proper functions, and now endeavors to assume whatever 11 activities and responsibilities it deems necessary to 12 protect the interests of the asbestos manufacturing 13 industry in the United States vis-a-vis asbestos and 14 health." Did you believe that to be true at the time? 15 A Yes. 16 Q And was that the position of the various 17 members of the Asbestos Information Association at the 18 time? 19 A I would have to assume so. 20 Q The next page discusses the nine fields 21 of endeavor for the Asbestos Information Association. 22 And it lists medical affairs, legal affairs, government 23 affairs, environmental control, publicity and public 24 relations, customer relations, employee relations and 25 inter-industry relations. Was that true at the time? Brody & Geiser (201) 738-8555 or (212) 732-0644 SWETONIC-Direct AIA-7 6 1 ways with asbestos where they're not exposed to huge 2 amounts of asbestos dust the way the insulation trade 3 were will not develop diseases at this sort of levels 4 that Selikoff had in his study. 5 Q Well, did you have a conclusion at the 6 time that they would develop diseases at lower levels? 7 A In some areas yes, and in some areas no. 8 Q What do you mean by that? 9A In other words, if you looked at the textile 10 mills, for example, they had problems not as serious as 11 Selikoff's, but problems particularly with asbestosis. 12 If you looked at asbestos cement pipe, before they got 13 the crocidolite out you had some mesothelioma problems 14 there. Most other asbestos cement situations there 15 didn't seem to be any problems at all. The mining 16 situation, for whatever reason, did not seem to be bad 17 except in South Africa. So it was a mixed bag of 18 things. 19 Q Well, how long was it known that high 20 levels of fibers were generated by asbestos insulation 21 workers? 22 A I don't know. I can't say. 23 Q Okay. You did believe prior to 1973, 24 however, did you not, that individuals who were family 25 members were at risk of developing asbestos disease? Brody & Geiser (201) 738-8555 or (212) 732-0644 AIA-7 SWETONIC-Direct 6 1A Yes. 2 Q You said that there was demonstration that 3 people who worked with asbestos cement pipe could get 4 sick, correct? 5A Dating back before controls were put into place. 6 Q All right. And when was that, '40s? 7 A Yeah, probably. 8 Q '50s? 9 A I don't know, before my time. 10 Q You say that there was evidence that 11 people who worked in the asbestos textile factories 12 could get sick, correct? 13 A Yes, many studies. 14 Q All right. There was evidence that people 15 who worked in the asbestos insulation industry could 16 get sick, correct? 17 A Not in the manufacturing side. 18 Q That I don't understand. What do you 19 mean? 20 A In other words, the people -- I mean, to the 21 best of my recollection, I don't think that there were 22 any studies that indicated the people who made the pipe 23 insulation had a problem. It was only the people who 24 installed it and ripped it out that had the problem. 25 But I may be wrong. But that's my recollection. Brody & Geiser (201) 738-8555 or (212) 732-0644 AIA-7 SWETONIC-Direct 9 1A I don't recall making such a recommendation. 2 Q Can you recall any instances in the past 3 where Hill and Knowlton advised any member of the 4 insulation industry to set up research foundations or 5 medical research to help assist it on the asbestos and 6 health issues 7A Only the, only going back to the establishment 8 of that joint program with Selikoff back in the late 9 '60s. 10 Q Other than that, you can't think of any? 11 A No, I cannot think of any. 12 Q In your capacity at the Asbestos 13 Information Association, had you ever discussed the 14 hazards of asbestos specifically with any industry 15 member representatives other than Johns-Manville? 16 MS. FIGOEREDO: Can you repeat the 17 question? 18 (Read back.) 19 A Well, that was the purpose of the trade 20 association. So, sure, with all the other member 21 companies when they would come to meetings or whatever. 22 Q I'm reading from P-2, the statement that 23 says; "Most finished asbestos-containing products when 24 correctly used will not produce dust levels high enough 25 to be a hazard to workers." Do you know what is meant Brody & Geiser (201) 738-8555 or (212) 732-0644 AIA-7 SWETONIC-Direct 9 1 presentations made by the AIA on behalf of the industry 2 members? 3A Yes, I believe they would, as I recall. 4 Q Can you tell me specifically which doctors 5 you can recall dealing with from those companies? 6A I believe George Wright. I believe around that 7 time Manville had retained Dr. Paul Kotin as well. 8 There was a doctor from Raybestos, but I cannot 9 remember his name, I believe. And those are the only 10 ones that frankly come to mind. 11 Q Did any member of the insurance industry 12 ever have any relationship with Hill and Knowlton in 13 terms of the issues of asbestos and health? 14 A Not to my knowledge. 15 Q Now, was there a policy within the 16 Asbestos Information Association that nothing could be 17 released unless it was approved by the member 18 companies, and that no statement should be made without 19 the approval of the member companies? 20 A Well, there was -- there was an approval 21 process. I cannot specifically say what it was. I 22 know that not everybody had to approve a statement that 23 needed to be made in a short period of time. But I 24 don't remember what the approval process was. 25 Q But generally there was approval on behalf Brody & Geiser (201) 738-8555 or (212) 732-0644 AIA-7 SWETONIC-Direct 96 1 of the industry members - 2 A Yes. 3 Q -- of anything that was published or 4 presented? 5 A That1s correct. 6 Q So, for instance, were you made a 7 presentation to Congress, the substance of that 8 presentation would have to be approved by the member 9 companies or members of it? 10 A That's correct, although I've never made a 11 presentation to Congress or any Congressional 12 committee. 13 Q For instance, when you testified before 14 OSHA -- 15 A Yes. 16 Q -- was the substance of your testimony 17 first reviewed by the member companies? 18 A Yes. 19 Q Before any of these pamphlets are sent out 20 are they all approved by the member companies? 21 A If the pamphlets wereproduced when Iwas there, 22 yes. What happens today, I have no idea, 23 Q Am I correct that you as you sit here 24 today you don't have a recollection of a specific 25 approval procedure? Brody & Geiser (201) 738-8555 or (212) 732-0644