Document npRaDYaqjqjy0MZZ1DK7gJMmm

po - i 1 SUPERIOR COURT OF NEW JERSEY LAW DIVISION - MIDDLESEX COUNTY ORIGINAL2 DOCKET NO. L-3669-96 3 JOHN NORMAN, 4 DEPOSITION UNDER Plaintif: ORAL EXAMINATION 5 OF ARTHUR M . LANGER, Ph . D . 6 Vs. 7 A. J. FRIEDMAN SUPPLY, CO. INC et al., 'cW*^;o 8 Defendants. OLsl^cd ihL "iJ --- 9 ^7^ -/ rV> 'Ct 10 11 TRANSCRIPT of the deposition of the ^ * *1 12 Novx^ 13 witness, called for Oral Examination in the $ ^ 14 above-captioned matter, said deposition being taken -- 15 pursuant to Superior Court Rules of Practice and 16 Procedure by and before JENNIFER REALMUTO, a Notary 17 Public and Certified Shorthand Reporter of the State 18 of New Jersey, at the Offices of PORZIO, BROMBERG, 19 NEWMAN, ESQS., 156 West 56th Street, New York, New 20 York, on Thursday, October 31, 1996 commencing at 21 10:00 in the forenoon. 22 23 BRODY & GEISER Certified Shorthand Reporters 24 90 Woodbridge Center Drive Woodbriage, New Jersey 07095 25 (908) 283-1060 JOB # 610318 Brody & Geiser (908) 283-1060 or (212) 732-0644 2 1 APPEARANCES: 2 WILENTZ, GOLDMAN & SPITZER, ESQS. 90 Woodbridge Center Drive 3 Woodbridge, New Jersey 07095 (908) 636-8000 4 BY: ANGELO J. CIFALDI, ESQ. BY: ALFRED M. ANTHONY, ESQ. 5 Attorneys for the Plaintiff 6 PORZIO, BROMBERG & NEWMAN, ESQS. 7 163 Madison Avenue Morristown, New Jersey, 07962 8 (201) 538-4006 BY: D. JEFFREY CAMPBELL, ESQ. 9 Attorneys for the Defendant, Rheem Manufacturing 10 HOAGLAND, LONGO, MORAN, DUNST & DOUKAS, ESQS. 40 Paterson Street 11 New Brunswick, New Jersey 08903 (908) 545-4717 12 BY: CARLEEN M. STEWARD, ESQ. Attorneys for Defendant, Kohler Company 13 REIMERS & NOONAN, ESQS. 14 159 Millburn Avenue Millburn, New Jersey 07041 15 (201) 467-2552 BY: FRANK H. REIMERS, ESQ. 16 Attorneys for Defendant, IPC, Inc. 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Brody & Geiser (908) 283-1060 or (212) 732-0644 1 INDEX 2 WITNESS 3 ARTHUR M. LANGER. Ph.D. 4 Direct by Mr. Cifaldi 5 Cross by Mr., Reimers 6 Cross by Mr. Campbell 7 Redirect by Mr. Cifaldi 8 9 EXHIBITS 10 NUMBER 11 P-1 12 P-2 13 P-3 14 P-4 15 P-5 16 DESCRIPTION Notice of Deposition Curriculum Vitae Oral Report Draft Report Handwritten Notes 17 P-6 Handwritten Notes 18 P-7 Correspondence 20 21 22 23 24 25 3 PAGE 4 102 104 107 PAGE 4 4 4 23 53 81 102 Brody & Geiser (908) 283-1060 or (212) 732-0644 4 1 2 3 4 5 6 1 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 ARTHUR M. LANGE R, 6 Rochambeau Drive, Hartsdale, New York, having been duly sworn according to law, testifies as follows: (Exhibits P-l through P-3 were marked for Identification.) DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. CIFALDI: Q Dr. Langer, my name is Angelo J. Cifaldi. I'm with the law firm of Wilentz, Goldman and Spitzer. We represent Mr. Norman in a case against various defendants. We're here today for the purpose of taking your deposition. I assume you've had your deposition taken on many occasions, correct? A Yes. Q Can you approximate how many times? A Perhaps four times a year over the last ten years. Q Despite the fact that you've been through this on a few occasions, let me give you a few instructions so we're both on the same wavelength. First and foremost, please listen to the question I ask you. If you don't understand it, tell me. If you answer, I'm going to make an assumption that Brody & Geiser (908) 283-1060 or (212) 732-0644 LANGER - Direct 5 1 you're understanding it and that you're answering to 2 the best of your ability. Do you understand? 3A Yes. 4 Q Number two, if there's an objection by 5 any attorney, let the usual dialogue that takes place 6 go on the record and then you can answer, unless it 7 involves some privileged dialogue and you choose not 8 to answer. Do you understand that? 9A Yes. 10 Q If you need to take a break, let me 11 know. 12 A Yes. 13 Q Also while this is an informal setting, 14 under certain circumstances the testimony you give 15 here today may be used at the time of trial. Do you 16 understand that? 17 A Yes. 18 Q Can you state your full name and address 19 for the record? 20 A Arthur M. Langer, L-a-n-g-e-r, 6 Rochambeau, 21 R-o-c-h-a-m-b-e-a-u, Drive, Hartsdale, 22 H-a-r-t-s-d-a-l-e, New York, 10530. 23 Q When were you first contacted to consult 24 in an asbestos litigation matter? 25 A This is an historical question, correct:? Brody & Geiser (908) 283-1060 or (212) 732-0644 LANGER Direct 6 1 Q Yes, it is. 2A In the late 1970s probably. 3 Q And do you remember the context of the 4 contact? 5A I don't recall the specifics. If you'd like 6 me to speculate, I will speculate. 7 Q Well, I don't want you to speculate. I'd 8 let you give me an estimate if you can. 9A I don't recall. 10 Q Was it through an attorney? 11 A Yes. 12 Q Do youremember who the attorney was? 13 A Again this invites speculation. 14 Q When was your next contact after the 15 1970s regarding the asbestos litigation matter? 16 A Approximately once or twice a yearthereafter 17 until approximately 1990, thereupon, perhaps three or 18 four times a year. 19 Q Have you done work for attorneys 20 representing plaintiffs and defendants? 21 A Yes. 22 Q Can you approximate a breakdown 23 percentage-wise over the years on average? 24 A At the outset, I acted as an expert on behalf 25 of many plaintiffs' attorneys and as time went on, Brody & Geiser (908) 283-1060 or (212) 732-0644 LANGER - Direct 7 1 the ratio changed to more defense attorney work as 2 compared or ratioed to plaintiff work. 3 Q In the last few years, can you give me a 4 percentage, say '94, '95, '96? 5A I'm assuming that this involves contacts over 6 the phone in which I'm asked about certain problems 7 as well as -- 8 Q That's fair. 9A -- written reports? I would say the ratio has 10 become perhaps two-thirds defense work, one-third 11 plaintiffs work or 75 percent defense work and 25 12 percent plaintiffs work, somewhere in that order. 13 Q Can you approximate for me how many times 14 a year you testified at trial over the last few years 15 if you can give me an average? 16 A Perhaps once a year. 17 Q And when would that have started? When 18 was the first time you testified at trial? 19 A The first time I testified at trial, I acted 20 as an expert on behalf of the Department of Justice 21 of the United States. This was tried in federal 22 court in Minneapolis, Minnesota. The issue was the 23 contamination of Lake Superior with minerals, some of 24 which were believed to be asbestiform. 25 Q And when was that? Brody & Geiser (908) 283-1060 or (212) 732-0644 LANGER Direct 8 1A That would be about 1973 and that was in 2 Miles, M-i-l-e-s, Lord, L-o-r-d, Miles Lord Court. 3 Q The ratio you described, approximately 75 4 to 25 percent recently as far as your consultations, 5 can you give me a general overview as to what 6 opinions you were offering when you were representing 7 plaintiffs in that 25 percent of the cases? Is there 8 some general theme that you can relate to me? 9A Much of the plaintiffs' work today consists of 10 meetings and strategy sessions involving a number of 11 issues. These issues include lead in paint, fiber 12 emission from asbestos wicking, biological 13 circumstances of working as a brake worker, 14 b-r-a-k-e, and similar types of matters. 15 Q Okay, With regard to fiber emissions 16 from asbestos wicking, do you have an opinion as to 17 whether fiber does emit from the use of asbestos 18 wicking? 19 A I was asked to test two products in a 20 laboratory. The wickings were provided to me. The 21 wickings were cut with mechanical shears multiple 22 times in an isolated chamber, air measurements were 23 made. The air filters were examined by transmission 24 electron microscopy. 25 Q What TM standard did you use, NIOSH 7402 Brody Sc Geiser (908) 283-1060 or (212) 732-0644 LANGER Direct 9 1 ihera (phonetic) yamate? 2A The NIOSH 74 02 method is a light microscopy- 3 methodology. We did not use light microscopy in this 4 particular study but rather examined the materials 5 following protocols which have been used by the, for 6 example, the Environmental Protection Agency and the 7 characteristics and criteria that we use to identify 8 particulates on air filters follows pretty much the 9 so-called yamate, y-a-m-a-t-e, method. Actually, 10 yamate follows our method but that's a mere 11 embellishment. 12 Q That's okay. So let me follow-up. So 13 then basically you were measuring fibers of any 14 length. You didn't have a cut-off of .5 microns or 5 15 microns just as long as it fit the ratio? 16 A That's a better question. 17 Q Thank you. 18 A The EPA protocol for monitoring air inside 19 buildings calls for a different aspect ratio of 5 to 20 1, a different cut-off point of 0.5 microns in terms 21 of fiber length and a requirement for the distinction 22 of fibers greater than 5 microns and those which lie 23 between 0.5 and 5 microns. We follow that protocol. 24 Q Do you recall what your results were? 25 A I believe the highest value we found was 0.003 Brody & Geiser (908) 283-1060 or (212) 732-0644 LANGER Direct 10 1 fibers and I do not believe that any of the fibers 2 were greater than 5 microns in length. 3 Q Is this all chrysotile? 4A Yes, I'm sorry. Yes, I should have mentioned 5 that, of course. 6 Q That's okay. Now, were these levels you 7 came up with, were these time weighted averages or 8 were they P concentrations? 9A No, no. I'm sorry, no. These were not time 10 weighted. That's w-e-i-g-h-t-e-d, time weighted 11 average. Rather these were the excursions which were 12 recorded following the actual manipulation of the 13 material and allowing the pump to run for an 14 additional ten minutes so this represents what you 15 would call the initial burst or the excursion. 16 Q Now, was any of this data ever published 17 by you or anyone else? 18 A No, not yet anyway. 19 Q Do you have the data available? 20 A I have the data but they belong to someone 21 else actually. 22 Q Well, I'll make requests. You don't have 23 to respond and we'll follow-up. 24 MR. CIFALDI; I'd like to request the 25 data regarding the wicking test that was just Brody & Geiser (908) 283-1060 or (212) 732-0644 LANGER - Direct 11 1 described by Dr. Langer and we'll follow-up in 2 a letter and if you can mark my requests. 3 Q Excuse me. Who was that test done for, 4 plaintiffs' attorney? 5A Yes. 6 Q Or defendant? Plaintiffs' attorney? Can 7 you tell me who it was? 8A It was done for the law firm of Gallagher, 9 G-a-l-l-a-g-h-e-r? Did I slur that? Gallagher, 10 DeRobertis, Nakomura and Ono in Hawaii. 11 MR. CIFALDI: Off the record. 12 (A discussion was held off the record.) 13 Q In the last say three years, have you 14 ever given a deposition on behalf of a plaintiff in 15 asbestos litigation? 16 A I can't remember. 17 Q Nothing comes - 18 A It's possible but I just can't remember. 19 Q Have you given any trial testimony on 20 behalf of a plaintiff in asbestos litigation in the 21 last three years? 22 A No. 23 Q Have you given any trial testimony on 24 behalf of a defendant in an asbestos litigation 25 matter over the last three years? Brody & Geiser (908) 283-1060 or (212) 732-0644 LANGER - Direct 12 1A This is trial testimony? 2 Q Yes, it is. 3A In the last three years, I think two in Judge 4 Freedman's court here in New York. 5 Q In New York. Do you recall who you were 6 testifying - 7A These are asbestos cases -- I'm sorry to 8 interrupt you. These are asbestos cases only. 9 Q Yes, that's what I was asking. 10 A Okay. 11 Q Do you know of which asbestos defendant 12 called you to testify, which attorneys, who they 13 represented? 14 A The last case was a case for Uniroyal 15 involving asbestos cloth and at the time before 16 that -- this is Freedman's court. 17 Q Sure. 18 A I think it was OCF but I'm not sure. 19 Q Can you recall any of the other asbestos 20 manufacturers, suppliers, et cetera, that you've 21 represented over the years or offered opinions on 22 behalf of over the years? 23 A You mean those that I've acted as an expert 24 for? 25 Q Correct. Brody & Geiser (908) 283-1060 or (212) 732-0644 1 2 3 4 c 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 LANGER Direct 13 A Manufacturers? Q Supplies, distributors, anything? A Suppliers, distributors, this is just deposition or trial testimony? Q Exactly. A OCF based on work involving tissue burden studies. Q Okay. A Durabia gaskets, the Claims Resolution Center in Baltimore and -- Q And whoever they represented at the time? A Yes, the multitudes, the great masses. I really can't recall because I am in so few trials. Q Have you ever done any work on behalf of Crane Packing? A I don't think so, no. Q Garlock? A I don't think so. Q Anchor? A Again, I don't think so, no. Q Have you ever done any work on behalf of any electric wire companies? A I was deposed in a caseinvolving a Marine Wire and Cablein Seattle Washington but that never went to trial. That was settled. Brody & Geiser (908) 283-1060 or (212) 732-0644 LANGER Direct 14 1 Q Do you know who the attorney represented 2 that called you? 3A I think it was Erickson. 4 Q Erickson Wireand Cable, right? 5A Yeah, I think so. 6 Q Can you estimate for me what percentage 7 of your income in 1995 was derived from your 8 litigation related consults? 9A Are you talking asbestos? 10 Q Everything right now. 11 A Everything, maybe 60percent. 12 Q What about 1995, if we're just talking 13 about asbestos related consults? 14 A It's dropped considerably, maybe 40, 45, maybe 15 50. 16 Q Okay. 17 A Maybe. 18 Q Fair enough. Can youapproximate was it 19 similar in 1994 for asbestos related litigation 20 consults, about 50 percent? 21 A Yeah, maybe, 22 Q Can you tell me so we don't have to go 23 over this ad nauseam here, has it been fairly 24 constant at 50 percent beginning in some year when it 25 was lower and it worked up to 50 percent? Do you Brody & Geiser (908) 283-1060 or (212) 732-0644 LANGER - Direct 15 1 know what I'm getting at to try to save time? 2A Yes, I'm not trying to sound evasive or act as 3 if I'm don't want to share this with you but this 4 fluctuates. As of the last few years, I've been 5 involved in litigation -- litigations in matters 6 pertaining to implant litigation and crystalline 7 silica and so if there's some major trial or some 8 major effort in a certain area, it is a 9 disproportionate amount of income in relation to time 10 meaning chat there's some critical issue that's just 11 destroying some entity somewhere and they wish my 12 participation so there may be a lot of time put in in 13 a very short period, meaning many hours over a short 14 time span in terms of calendar time. 15 Q I'm just trying to get a gauge on what 16 percentage of your income say from 1994 which has 17 been related or been derived from asbestos related 18 litigation consults? 19 A Maybe 55 percent, something like that. 20 Q Okay,, 21 MR. CAMPBELL: That's under total income, 22 not just your consultative income? I just was 23 unclear about thac. 24 A Yeah, total. 25 MR. CAMPBELL: Okay. Brody & Geiser (908) 283-1060 or (212) 732-0644 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 LANGER Direct 16 Q Why don't we go over your CV for a moment if we could. A Sure. Q You obtained your BA in geology in 1956. Did you have any courses that touched on asbestos foreign minerals? A No. Q MA in petrology, Columbia University in 1962, anything to do with asbestos during that training? A No. Q Ph.D. mineralogy Columbia University 1965, anything with regard to asbestos foreign minerals in that degree? A You meanspecifically, notreallyother than the fact that asbestos is a commodity and it was mentioned in a course in economic geology but no, there's no focus on that, of course, no. Q What was your thesis on, sir? A My Master's thesis was on the origin of certain rock types in local rocks called the Manhattan Formation. That's the archetype of pegmatites, the Manhattan Formation. My Ph.D. was on the mineralogy of playa, p-l-a-y-a lake beds in California. Brody & Geiser (908) 283-1060 or (212) 732-0644 LANGER Direct 17 1 Q With regard to the rock formations in 2 Manhattan, was there any reference to any 3 asbestos-containing materials in those formations? 4A You mean in retrospect or? 5 Q No, when you wrote it. 6A No. 7 Q In retrospect? 8A Well, in retrospect with the OSHA regulations 9 as written prior to 1990, New York City had many 10 rocks which contained asbestos, if one crushed, 11 certain portions of units within the Manhattan 12 Formation one, generated an aerosol with fragments of 13 actinolite which would have been regulated by OSHA 14 asbestos but these were not asbestos forms. It's not 15 until recently that OSHA removed cleavage fragments 16 from the asbestos regulations. 17 Q Is that actinolite and amphibole? 18 A Actinolite is an amphibole, yes. 19 Q You had a lot of previous positions 20 here. Let's try to save some time. I see you at 21 least as a consulting mineralogist with Columbia 22 University, you did some work for some oil companies, 23 correct? 24 A Yes, that's right. 25 Q Can you tell me what basically, what Brody & Geiser (908) 283-1060 or (212) 732-0644 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 LANGER Direct 17 Q With regard to the rock formations in Manhattan, was there any reference to any asbestos-containing materials in those formations? A You mean in retrospect or? Q No, when you wrote it. A No. Q In retrospect? A Well, in retrospect with the OSHA regulations as written prior to 1990, New York City had many rocks which contained asbestos, if one crushed, certain portions of units within the Manhattan Formation one, generated an aerosol with fragments of actinolite which would have been regulated by OSHA asbestos but these were not asbestos forms. It's not until recently that OSHA removed cleavage fragments from the asbestos regulations. Q Is that actinolite and amphibole? A Actinolite is an amphibole, yes. Q You had a lot of previous positions here. Let's try to save some time. I see you at least as a consulting mineralogist with Columbia University, you did some work for some oil companies, correct? A Yes, that's right, Q Can you tell me what basically, what Brody & Geiser (908) 283-1060 or (212) 732-0644 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 LANGER - Direct 18 areas you covered? A The professor that I studied under at New York University was the Newberry Professor of Geology or Mineralogy. He was eminent. He was internationally recognized as an expert in his field. His expertise lay in both clay minerals and radioactive minerals and he was contacted by many organizations and industries from around the world to help them with various problems. I was a graduate student at that time. I believe I had finished my Ph.D. and as a graduate student, I participated at some of the research projects involving corporations involving clay mineral analysis or specific problems in which one of the crucial elements in the solution was the determination of certain mineralogical species which may be present in rocks. Q Can you tell me without going over each item of your positions on your CV when you first had some involvement with either doing research or offering opinions regarding asbestos foreign minerals? A In 1965, I became a part of Irving Selikoff's group, S-e-l-i-k-o-f-f's group, at the Mount Sinai Hospital. I was the first physical scientist in that group. My responsibility was the creation of a Brody & Geiser (908) 283-1060 or (212) 732-0644 LANGER Direct 19 1 pneumoconiosis laboratory and the principal study at 2 that time was the study of asbestos, asbestos 3 exposure and asbestos and its health consequences. 4 Q Who were some of the people that you 5 worked with back then? 6A You want me to start at the top and work 7 down? 8 Q That would be best. 9A Irving Selikoff as director. Jacob Churg 10 pathology. E. Cuyler Hammond, vice-president, chief 11 status division and epidemiologist of the American 12 Cancer Society. I was the first physical scientist. 13 Victor Baden came as a histologist, Ph.D. level. 14 Carl Berkley, B-e-r-k-l-e-y, was a medical engineer. 15 Essentially, perhaps Nicholson came, William 16 Nicholson, N-i-c-h-o-l-s-o-n, came in about 1969, 17 1970. At the same time we may have hired Arthur 18 Rohl, R-o-h-1. Ivan Rubin became part of our group 19 as a technical support person in the probe 20 laboratory. Carl Maggiore, M-a-g-g-i-o-r-e, as a 21 physicist. Ann Macklert worked in my laboratory, 22 M-a-c-k-l-e-r-t. There were many laboratory 23 technicians. I had students at that time. I had 24 some superb students. Antonio Sastre who went on to 25 get his Ph.D. at Cornell now is a professor of -- I'm Brody & Geiser (908) 283-1060 or (212) 732-0644 LANGER Direct 20 1 thinking pharmacology. It's not pharmacology. He is 2 a biological theoretician at Hopkins. There are many 3 others. 4 Q That's fine. 5A There were -- Suzuki came later on as a 6 pathologist. We worked with the pulmonary group 7 which included Al Tierstein, Al Miller. 8 Q Susan Daum? 9A Susan Daum was a resident. She was finishing 10 her residency. That is correct. If you want to talk 11 about residents -- 12 Q No, I just wanted to mention that one. I 13 was curious. 14 A No, Susan was the first chief resident in 15 medicine as a woman. 16 Q Now, as you said, you started in '65 at 17 Mount Sinai? 18 A Correct. 19 Q Then from '67 tc '68 you became Assistant 20 Professor of Mineralogy? 21 A Yes, Mount Sinai, I went to Mount Sinai before 22 Mount Sinai had a medical school so it was Mount 23 Sinai Hospital as a research associate. 24 Q And it seems you were at Mount Sinai 25 until approximately 1988? Brody & Geiser (908) 283-1060 or (212) 732-0644 LANGER - Direct 21 1A Correct. 2 Q And then you left Mount Sinai? 3A That's correct. 4 Q Why did you leave? 5A I left because the director of the center for 6 polypeptide and membrane research retired and that 7 group was going to be associated into the Department 8 of Physiology and Biophysics. And physiology and 9 biophysics had its own agenda and perception of the 10 future. We couldn't get any space so I decided that 11 the time was correct to leave Mount Sinai. 12 Q What we'll do is we'll go over some of 13 your publications later. Why don't we move on to 14 some of the issues in this case and we'll clean up 15 that stuff at the end. 16 Now, I believe you produced a draft report of 17 the final oral report served in this case; is that 18 correct? 19 A Yeah, I think it's here. 20 Q Could you please remove that from the 21 file if you would? 22 MR. CIFALDI: Why don't we mark the draft 23 report P-4 for identification? 24 (Exhibit P-4 was marked for 25 Identification.} Brody & Geiser (908) 283-1060 or (212) 732-0644 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 LANGER Direc 22 Q What's been marked P-4 for identification appears to be a fax you received from Porzio, Bromberg on July 23, 1996; is that correct? A Yes. Q And thenotations on the draftreport, are they yours? A Yes. Q And were they conveyed to someone at the Porzio office over the phone or in writing if you recall? A If I understand yourquestion correctly, this original draft is based on other affidavits in other cases and it was used as a draft, as a beginning draft. I reviewed it -- this is probably the second draft and then I conveyed my thoughts over the telephone and then this was sent to me and I just put my own notes on it. Q When was the first time you contacted - someone from the Porzio office contacted you, not necessarily in this case but for asbestos litigation matters? A You mean just asbestos? Q Yes. A Maybe four years ago, '92, '91, something like that, '92. Brody & Geiser (908) 283-1060 or (212) 732-0644 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 LANGER - Direct 23 Q Do you remember who contacted you? A It could be Mr. Campbell but I'm not sure. Q And how many times have you done consultations for the Porzio office in asbestos litigation since 1992? A Several times. Q Several? A Three, four. Q Have you ever testified at trial for them? A No. Q Have you ever given a deposition on their behalf? A I don't think so, no. Q First time? A Yes. Q Do you remember the nature of the prior contacts? A I believe one of the first times involved just a general kind of overview on how asbestos interacts in biological systems. Q Was it for any particulardefendant if you can recall? A I don't think so. Q What was the next time? Brody & Geiser (908) 283-1060 or (212) 732-0644 LANGER Direct 24 1A Possibly a mesothelioma case involving 2 chrysotile and an exposure in buildings, like 3 building air but the fiber was supplied by I believe 4 Mr. Campbell's client, 5 Q Do you remember who his client was in 6 that case? 7A No, I can't recall. 8 Q And when was the next - 9A It's just a chrysotile supplier. 10 Q Okay. Next contact? 11 A I can't recall because the -- there are lots 12 of times we just chat -- not Mr. Campbell but his 13 colleague, Mr. Fazio and I chat about some issue and 14 of course this time Mr. Norman. 15 Q What do you chat about with Mr. Fazio? 16 A We just chat. 17 Q About what issues? 18 A The kinds of issues that you're chatting about 19 today in the sense if there are multiple exposures, 20 which one would seem to be the most important and 21 what about the time element, what about the dose 22 element, what about the contribution of fiber type. 23 General issues, "what do you think", stuff like that. 24 Q Have you submitted a bill in the Norman 25 matter yet? Brody & Geiser (908) 283-1060 or (212) 732-0644 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 LANGER - Direct 25 A I believe I submitted a bill after reading materials and discussing this case with Mr. Campbell. Q Do you remember what the bill was? A A statement for services of, I don't know how many hours, 10 hours, 11, 12. Q And what was your hourly rate? A Hourly rate is $225 an hour for general work, $275 an hour for depositions and $325 for trial testimony. Q Did you meet with Mr. Campbell before today's deposition? A Yes. Q Today or some other day? A We met yesterday. Q And how long did you spend? A We were here from about 10 until 3 maybe, something like that. Q General discussions? A General discussions. Q Okay. Why don't we take a look at that draft report for a moment if I could? A Please. Q You have some comments written by the gaskets and the rope, could you tell me what they are and why you've put them in there? Brody & Geiser (908) 283-1060 or (212) 732-0644 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 LANGER Direct 26 MR. CAMPBELL: Before you answer that question, I just want to comment for the clarity of the record, I'm not sure that that's a draft report. It may be exactly the same report as the final report just having his notes on it, so just so the record's clear. Q Okay, Sure. A Hello. Q Yes. A Here we go. This is the context of this, there's the following statement, "Dr. Langer will testify that on the basis of the mineralogic properties of chrysotile, amosite and crocidolite, the geographic source of those minerals and the physical properties needed in asbestos gaskets and rope used in residential boilers, that it is his opinion that such gaskets and rope contained chrysotile asbestos only." Now, I have circled gaskets and my marginalia comment is that generally so, meaning for chrysotile is generally so, crocidolite in aggressive environments and then I have the note "temperature of application" so given these particular gaskets in these particular boilers and I've -- this marginalia Brody & Geiser (908) 283-1060 or (212) 732-0644 LANGER - Direct 27 1 predated the reading of these Rheem Boiler Brochures 2 which coincide the temperature of surface and so 3 forth, so these are my own marginalia. I can't be a 4 good expert unless I discuss all the issues. 5 And rope, now rope also cannot be amosite 6 because amosite is not -- it is not flexible. It's a 7 more brittle fiber. It's used and has different 8 applications. So the temperature, the nature of the 9 environment, how chemically aggressive an environment 10 is will dictate the use of chrysotile and crocidolite 11 and the temperature of the surface application. 12 Now, I've also included in the marginalia, 13 because I've underlined chrysotile and again there is 14 a note that ropes used in these particular boilers, 15 depending on the nature of the temperature of the 16 surface and how aggressive the environment is, 17 crocidolite rope in aggressive environments those are 18 used in the chemical industries, especially in the 19 old fluorohydrocarbon industries. Now, at the 20 bottom -- 21 Q Can I interrupt you for one second? 22 A Sure, go ahead. 23 Q In this case, based upon your review, 24 actually did you review Mr. Norman's deposition 25 transcript or his Interrogatories? Brody & Geiser (908) 283-1060 or (212) 732-0644 LANGER Direct 28 1A Yes. 2 Q Based on your review, would it be fair to 3 say that in the environments Mr. Norman was working 4 in he would not have been exposed to rope or gaskets 5 that contained anything other than chrysotile? 6A That's a good question. I am basing the 7 answer on my reading of the Rheem Boiler materials. 8 It would not have been crocidolite. 9 Q Okay, Can I see that again, thanks. 10 Could you please tell me what -- you have a note in 11 the margin here, looks like p-1 versus I guess it's 12 pleural versus peritoneal, something, something, my 13 loss of -- could you tell me what that is? 14 A All right. In the context of the following 15 statement: Dr. Langer will testify -- further 16 testify as to the how, as to the how -- as to the 17 mineralogic properties of the various types of 18 asbestos fiber and relate their ability to cause 19 mesothelioma and I have circled the word mineralogic 20 and properties and my marginalia consists of pleural 21 versus peritoneal but it's p-1 versus p-e-r-i-t and I 22 have an asterisk and in my shorthand I have written 23 chrysotile and degradation and I've underlined 24 chrysotile and degradation and under this the 25 marginalia includes magnesium but it's the chemical Brody & Geiser (908) 283-1060 or (212) 732-0644 LANGER - Direct 29 1 symbol Mg. , loss and activity. 2 Q Let's try to figure out, is one of the 3 things that you're saying when chrysotile gets into 4 the parenchymal tissue, magnesium leaches out and the 5 fiber breaks down into fibrils? Is that what you're 6 talking about there? 7A Well, that's part of it, of course, the one - 8 one has to look at a -- when we talk about properties 9 I have not been asked to discuss epidemiology per se, 10 although we can discuss it but, we were dealing with 11 properties of minerals and the properties of minerals 12 relate to or underscore their importance in imparting 13 biological potential for chrysotile asbestos, the 14 material is not stable in an acidic environment. It 15 tends to lose magnesium and I've studied that with 16 probe studies and it's been found by others around 17 the world including one of Dr. Suzuki's colleagues 18 Dr. Coyama (phonetic), the magnesium leach of a 19 chrysotile surface alters the biological potential. 20 In fact,, there are experimental data to show 21 that the magnesium leaching from chrysotile blunts 22 the ability of the fiber to produce mesothelioma at 23 least in laboratory animals. There's a good deal to 24 show that -- a good deal of evidence, experimental 25 evidence and evidence involving fibers recovered from Brody & Geiser (908) 283-1060 or (212) 732-0644 LANGER Direct 30 1 human tissues to show that chrysotile degrades and 2 the degrading blunts its potential. That's merely 3 one of the factors anyway. 4 Q When you say blunts its potential, why? 5A This goes to the heart of the physical 6 chemical principles of toxicology in which cell 7 membranes interact with chemical function amounts on 8 surfaces of particulates or interacts with different 9 kinds of lichens which hang off organic molecules and 10 these are the mechanisms by which these compound 11 particulates interact in cellular environments. 12 There's a communication between the surface of a 13 mineral and the receptors on cells. 14 Q Are you talking about free radicals? 15 A Free radical is another story. That's the 16 generation of certain active chemical species. I'm 17 not a terribly great supporter of free radicals. We 18 studied free radicals on chrysotile asbestos almost 19 20 years ago. It was kind of interesting. If you 20 grade asbestos, for example, it loses certain 21 structural characteristics and that also decreases 22 its biological potential. 23 Q Let's get to an issue since we're on it 24 now so maybe we can move on a little. Are you of the 25 opinion that to develop mesothelioma, the fiber has Brody & Geiser (908) 283-1060 or (212) 732-0644 DANGER - Direct 31 1 tc get into the pleural tissue whether it be the 2 visceral or parietal pleura? 3A That is the general wisdom. 4 Q Do you subscribe to the general wisdom? 5A I am ambivalent about that. 6 Q What does that mean? 7A Well, it means I'm ambivalent. What does it 8 mean? It means that before I was up at a meeting in 9 Lake Placid a few weeks ago, I believed that you had 10 to have the agent at the site in order to have this 11 agent communicate with cells and have these cells 12 undergoing certain changes which would first initiate 13 and then promote the development of a new cell line 14 which we would call a malignant cell line. However, 15 up at this meeting, there was -- and this meeting was 16 a meeting of experimental studies of cells exposed to 17 various mineral dusts and man-made materials and 18 there was a paper given in which it was shown that 19 you could use materials like amphiboles, asbestos 20 minerals to cause cells to generate chemical 21 messengers that we call cytokines and these cytokines 22 influenced mesothelial cells without the material, 23 the agent being actually at that cell surface, which 24 I found fascinating. 25 So when I say I'm ambivalent, I think that Brody & Geiser (908) 283-1060 or (212) 732-0644 LANGER Direct 32 1 like everything in the world, it isn't just yes or no 2 but there may be a combination of factors which come 3 into play. Yeah, probably you need the agent in very 4 close proximity. 5 Q Fair enough. Are you familiar with any 6 of the translocation studies of chrysotile fiber by 7 Beyon, Sebastion, Suzuki, et cetera? 8A Yes. 9 Q Do you have a view as to whether you 10 believe the conclusions reached by those studies are 11 varied? 12 A Which conclusions do you speak of? 13 Q The conclusions generally that the 14 majority of fiber found in the pleural tissue is 15 short chrysotile fibrils? 16 A I think that's probably true. As a matter of 17 fact, I have some data to support that as well. 18 Q What data do you have to support that? 19 A Years ago I did a study of 10,000 -- the 20 contribution of 10,000 fibers in the lung of an 21 asbestos worker. 22 Q He had a mixed exposure? 23 A Primarily amosite but there was chrysotile 24 used in this plant for a very short period of time. 25 Q Excuse me. Where did he work? Brody & Geiser (908) 283-1060 or (212) 732-0644 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 LANGER - Direct 33 A He worked at a little plant in New Jersey, in Paterson. Q Raybestos or Unarco? A Unarco Union Asbestos Rubber Company. Q What did you find? A I found that the chrysotile concentrated in the lymphatics, in the higher node, in the interlobular pleura and areas in the lung in which you would anticipate a lymphatic drainage and the fibers tended to be short and they tended to be fragmented and I believe that chrysotile does "move" around, move, put that in quotes, move around more than the amphiboles. Q Do you think that the research that you've done and others have done with regard to this issue have any significance with regard to the biological activity of chrysotile to induce a malignant mesothelioma in man and if so, what is your opinion? A You want my opinion today currently as we sit here? Q Yes, A Based on all of the evidence which is evidence which is experimental, which is cohort related, human experience? Brody & Geiser (908) 283-1060 or (212) 732-0644 LANGER - Direct 34 1 Q Yes. 2A The coughing up and swallowing of chrysotile 3 asbestos, let's say the elimination of asbestos from 4 pulmonary tissues up the mucociliary escalator 5 whereupon these fibers are swallowed and attacked by 6 stomach acids and so on. Based on the cohort data in 7 the world, there's not a single case verified of 8 peritoneal mesothelioma, peritoneal mesothelioma 9 following exposure to chrysotile asbestos only. 10 Q What about Dr. Dement's Carolina studies 11 on the textile? I believe he indicates there is no 12 other exposure that he's found other than to 13 chrysotile. 14 A That is not true. The predominant exposure 15 was chrysotile but crocidolite was used in that 16 plant. 17 Q But he indicated that that individual 18 never worked in that area of the plant based upon his 19 review of the employment records. Are you aware of 20 that? 21 A Well, I am aware that that statement has been 22 made but I would challenge that statement with an 23 Irving Selikoff statement, that fugitive dust does 24 not respect the jurisdictional boundaries of trades 25 and if fugitive dust played such a large role and Brody & Geiser (908) 283-1060 or (212) 732-0644 LANGER Direct 35 1 outcome in shipyard settings, there is no reason to 2 believe that an individual who did not weave or braid 3 crocidolite asbestos in Charleston by definition was 4 not exposed and the data produced in Fred Pooly's 5 laboratory in Cardiff showed that many of those 6 workers in Charleston did have crocidolite in their 7 pulmonary tissues. So whether or not the employment 8 records demonstrated that this person worked in that 9 area of Charleston, I'm not sure that that is a 10 guarantee that that person was not exposed. 11 Q What about some of the brake studies in 12 Connecticut, is it, on the brake lining? You've done 13 some work on brakes, haven't you? 14 A Yes, I have. 15 Q Weren't some of those, and maybe I'm 16 mistaken, just a chrysotile? 17 A I don't believe these were peritoneal. I 18 think those were pleural. 19 Q They're all pleural. Wasn't there a 20 peritoneal in one or two in an article by Dr. Rohl? 21 A Are you talking about Corbett McDonald's study 22 of the Raybestos? 23 Q Maybe I'm getting confused. 24 A I don't think so. I can't recall and I don't 25 want to mislead you but this would be an interesting Brody & Geiser (908) 283-1060 or (212) 732-0644 LANGER Direct 36 1 paper to review. 2 Q Since this case doesn't involve a 3 peritoneal mesothelioma, I'd like to get more on to 4 the pleural mesothelioma and my question was directed 5 to the biological activity of the chrysotile fibrils 6 that transudate to the pleura. With regard to pleura 7 mesothelioma, do you think that has some significance 8 in a medical or scientific - 9A You mean the short fibrils that reach the 10 pleura? 11 Q Yes. 12 A I don't think they have much significance. 13 Q You said much. 14 A Correct. 15 Q Do youthink they have some? 16 A Well, I'm sitting here as a scientist, you 17 asked me a very interesting question, I believe that 18 the world data supports the conclusion that very 19 short fibers, not terribly important, especially very 20 short chrysotile, when I say very short, I'm talking 21 about the materials that are even discounted by the 22 Environmental Protection Agency, 0.5. 23 Q Okay. 24 A Now, if you find less than one and it's 0.9, 25 if you were to have an index of biological potential Brody & Geiser (908) 283-1060 or (212) 732-0644 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 LANGER - Direct 37 from 0 to 10,000, is it possible that this is 10,000, I don't think so. Do I think it's zero? I don't think so. There's also a continuum. Is it 100 or 200, well, it could be. 500, I don't think it's as high as 500. That's 5 percent of the total biological potential, I think it's small. Q Do you have a view as to fibers from say 1 micron to 5 microns? Do you believe they're biologically inert? A What fiber type? Q Chrysotile? A Chrysotile, how did they get to be 5 -- this is not an inconsequential question. Q Let me cut you off. I'm sorry. Would you agree with me that maybe 80, 85 percent of the chrysotile used in the United States is under 5 microns? A Probably higher. Q Maybe 90, 95? A Could be. Q So let's assume then it got into that state because of processing and then if you could answer my question. A All right. Let's say we're dealing with short fiber produced at the interface of a friction pad and Brody & Geiser (908) 283-1060 or (212) 732-0644 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 LANGER - Direct 38 a wheel housing, a brake, if this chrysotile is subjected to the shear forces and the thermal stresses at that interface, that dust may be biologically inert. Q Because it turns into fosterite? A No. Q Why then? <S:r A I'm not a fosterite fan. Q I didn't think so. I thought maybe you changed. A I think that -- I'll let you know when my opinions change. I think that we're dealing with a sheared material and a ground or sheared structural degradation of chrysotile lowers its biological potential significantly. Now, if you crush the material or if there is a vigorous mechanical force brought to bear on that surface, that surface property alters. Now, there may be a way of breaking apart chrysotile so that you have a fresh surface. That's a little different and that may still retain biological potential. This short dust if you look at the bulk of the data, in the literature, this short dust produces less effects, laboratory animals in various tissue culture -- in various in vitro systems Brody & Geiser (908) 283-1060 or (212) 732-0644 LANGER Direct 39 1 and I believe that the biological potential is 2 greatly reduced and I think that there's an 3 interesting overview paper which is really hypothesis 4 generating, Frederick Pott of Germany. There 5 Frederick Pott shows a continuum of biological 6 potential but that biological potential starts at 7 about 3 micron length. There's something about the 8 necessity of a macrophage mediated kind of response 9 so I think the very short fiber is unimportant in the 10 grand scheme of things. The longer fiber, we only 11 count 5 micron fibers as a suitable index. It's a 12 microscopy index. It has no biological relevance. 13 Q That's a good answer. 14 A And there are people who have taken on a new 15 position who have collaborated people from California 16 and Edinburgh who believe you need a fiber 20, 30 or 17 40 microns in length before you begin to see 18 carcinogenesis. 19 Q That's certainly not generally accepted 20 at this time, that theory? 21 A Is it generally accepted, no, it's not. 22 Q You kind of touched on the answer and 23 maybe it's because there isn't a definite answer to 24 the question but is there some length of fiber below 25 which you believe there is no risk to develop Brody & Geiser (908) 283-1060 or (212) 732-0644 LANGER - Direct 40 1 mesothelioma when we're talking about chrysotile? 2A Well, with chrysotile, I don't count fibers 3 less than 1 micron in length. There is something 4 that you find in the ambient air, all of the data 5 indicate that this is dead in the water. 6 Q You would then think there's some 7 biological relevance of 1 micron to 5 microns in 8 length in chrysotile? 9A You mean could they have some? We didn't put 10 an index to it. Could they have some activity, sure. 11 Q How about if we take a short break? 12 (A brief recess was taken.) 13 Q My question is, now we're going to deal 14 specifically with pleural mesothelioma. Let's put 15 the peritoneal mesothelioma aside for the moment. Do 16 you believe that chrysotile asbestos can induce 17 malignant pleural mesothelioma in man? ^ 18 A If the dose is high enough, yes. 19 Q And do you have any particular dose you'd 20 like to offer to me? 21 A I can only offer the doses which are residues 22 of populations which remained in the lung tissue 23 after cessation of exposure, these are generally more 24 than a hundred million fibers per gram of dry light 25 tissue, something on that order. i IV Brody & Geiser (908) 283-1060 or (212) 732-0644 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 LANGER Direct 41 Q Did you say wet gram or dry gram, I'm sorry? A Dry. Q How does that compare with say for example, some of the numbers that Dr. Rogley came up with when he was measuring occupational exposure to asbestos if you're familiar with those? A It would be unfair of me to compare values in our laboratory, my laboratory with those in Dr. Rogley's laboratory because we use different instruments. Q Fair enough. How would you compare this number that you've come up with to your laboratory to an occupational exposure? A I don't understand the question. Q You said approximately a hundred million fibers per dry gram of lung tissue, correct? A Something on that order but this is the low end. I said at: least. Q Do you have any experience as to what number of fibers per dry gram of wet tissue you found in occupational exposures in your laboratory? MR. CAMPBELL: You just said wet. Q Dry then. A You just said wet. Brody & Geiser (908) 283-1060 or (212) 732-0644 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 13 20 21 22 23 24 25 LANGER - Direct 42 Q Let's take dry. A Well, without going over all of the techniques and all of the findings, one has to look at averages. They may be arithmetic averages. They may be geometric averages which is derived from logs converted to antilogs. I have recently finished a study of a number of workers in the United States who are occupationally exposed to asbestos. The occupational settings included insulation work and pipe covering, shipyard work in which any trade other than insulation work, any trade which had experience in a shipyard was grouped into a shipyard setting and other trades, meaning brake workers, plasterers, and so on and so forth and these tissues were analyzed and there are differences noted in each of these groups among the different trades so when one says occupational setting, you have to define the occupational setting, what: kind of occupational setting, what kind of trade. Are we dealing with construction? Are we dealing with plumbers? Are we dealing with electricians. Q Let's deal wich plumbers. A A plumber without a shipyard history tends to have amphiboles in their lung tissues although chrysotile is present and it could be present in high Brody & Geiser (908) 283-1060 or (212) 732-0644 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 LANGER Direct 43 quantities but I did not separately analyze plumbers because I did not have sufficient numbers of plumbers to look at. Q Well, what did you separately analyze that would come close in an analogy to plumbers where we can make an extrapolation? A I'm shaking my head. I don't think that you can use any one group. Perhaps construction trades. What did this plumber do? Did this plumber do only pipe work? Did this plumber engage in activities which more closely resembled steam fitters? Did this plumber engage in activity which was only residential in nature? Did this plumber only engage in specific activities? It's very difficult to think of a data set which might be directly related to this trade. Q Well, what averages did you get with your construction workers? A Construction workers tended to have a moderate amount of dust in their tissues, both chrysotile and amphiboles. Q And what were the measurements? A I just -- I'm blocking on that. Let me tell you what I do have ar.d then we can talk about it if you'd like. Q Okay, Brody Sc Geiser (908) 283-1060 or (212) 732-0644 LANGER - Direct 44 1A Take insulation workers, insulation workers in 2 the United States, all of them universally have 3 amosite in their pulmonary tissues. About half of 4 these workers have chrysotile as well. A smaller 5 percentage, maybe 20 percent, have some amounts of 6 crocidolite but the crocidolite is less than amosite 1 and it's less than chrysotile for sure. If you look 8 at the geometric means which gets rid of the 9 outliers, you get these odd ball measures, someone 10 who's intensely exposed and smoked cigarettes, 11 therefore the fibers can't get out of the lungs, the 12 geometric means indicate for insulation workers an 13 average of, could be a hundred million fibers per 14 gram of dry lung tissues of chrysotile, maybe less, 15 maybe the hundred is for the mesothelioma case, maybe 16 it's 125 million. I'm sorry. I don't have the data 17 in front of me. I don't want to misspeak. 18 Q Is it published? 13 A Not yet, it is under review. 20 MR. CIFALDI: I'd like to request that 21 information and I'll follow-up with that. 22 Q Do you believe that exposure to fiber 23 concentrations under the now in effect threshold 24 limit value guarantee that an individual won't 25 develop mesothelioma? Brody & Geiser (908) 283-1060 or (212) 732-0644 LANGER Direct 45 1 MR. CAMPBELL: For what fiber types? 2 MR. CIFALDI: Well, I think the new 3 suggested ruling for ACGIH is it's the same 4 for all fiber types but let's assume 5 chrysotile . 6A Chrysotile asbestos 0.1 fibers, 0.1 fibers for 7 25 years is 2.5 fiber years. This would be one one 8 hundredth. If we assume of course all factors 9 equal -- we're talking about chrysotile but if we 10 were to compare risks with other occupations, other 11 occupations are exposed to mixed fiber types, that 12 would be one one hundredths. For example, the risk 13 of insulation workers which happens to be an 14 amphibole exposed co-worker but let's assume that it 15 would be one one hundredth of the risk. It means 16 that the risk of mesothelioma is one and one 17 hundredth and the risk of lung cancer would be about 18 that, about one in 1,000 or one in one-half 19 thousand. So if you were to embrace the commonly 20 used models for risk assessment and projection, you 21 know, it is a linear model, you know, it is a model 22 with no threshold. Therefore, for every unit of 23 exposure there is a unit of risk. So your question 24 is will it protect, you have to define what you mean 25 by protection and you must define what you call safe Brody & Geiser (908) 283-1060 or (212) 732-0644 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 IS 20 21 22 23 24 25 LANGER Direct 46 because with the linear dose response, everyone is at risk just for fibers in the ambient air of New York City as an example. Q I'll follow-up with a question that could be more specific. Do you believe mesothelioma is a no threshold disease? A Do I? Q Yes. A A no threshold disease, hum, I think that there are data to suggest that there may be a threshold. We're talking about chrysotile? Q Right. A There's a threshold, yes, I do believe that. Q And do you have an opinion as to what it is? A No. Q Does amosite have a threshold? A Probably, yes.. Q Crocidolite? A Probably, yes, also, but it would have to be less than amosite and amosite less than chrysotile just based on properties. Q Do you believe that mesothelioma is caused by a cumulative exposure to asbestos fiber? Do you have a view about: that? ~ Brody & Geiser (908) 283-1060 or (212) 732-0644 1 2 3 4 6 1 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 DANGER Direct 47 A Well, we could talk about the models for mesothelioma, the model includes a dose factor so than the cumulative dose is a factor and calculated risk. However, if one follows the model, the last: ten or fifteen years of exposure prior to the clinical appearance of the disease may not factor into the disease itself. Q So you'd -- at least it's your view that the last 15 years would not be relevant to causation; is that fair? A That is the mathematical formulas. That's exactly what it says, the last ten years. Q Okay. The last ten years. So at minimum, you would subscribe to a ten year latency period, a bare minimum? ' A No, no, no, no, no. Q No, okay A No, you're talking about a latency period. Q Maybe I'm confusing the two. A That would be - - the latency period and we can use -- let's use Selikoff's data because Selikoff's data is probably the most extensive data set. Irving Selikoff's information published in 1991 at the meeting in New York, there were 4,991 deaths, something like that, and it was insulation cohort and Brody & Geiser (908) 283-1060 or (212) 732-0644 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 LANGER Direct 48 there were 485 mesothelioma. Of those 495 -- 475 mesothelioma, no mesothelioma occurred in a time period from onset of exposure to the appearance of the disease less than 15 years. It was somewhere between 15 and 20 and there were very few of them, maybe one or two occurred in that time which means it's a very small percentage. So there the incidence, the proportional mortality increases. It peaks differently for pleural mesothelioma as compared to peritoneal mesothelioma and then after a time period of approximately 50, 55 years, the proportional mortality decreases and there are a number of interpretations as to why that happens. Q So if I can, what is your range of latency period for pleural mesothelioma? A Pleural mesothelioma would be any time after -- generally some 25 years from onset of exposure, it should peak at about 35 years, 40 years. Q Okay. A Something like that. And then it -- the proportional mortality goes down. Q Okay, A It does not continue to rise as the model predicts. Q Now, if an individual has a mixed Brody Sc Geiser (908) 283-1060 or (212) 732- 0644 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 LANGER - Direct 49 exposure, let's say that begins in 1960 for ease of calculation here - A Right. Q -- and they develop mesothelioma in 1995 - A Right. Q -- and there is exposure to amosite and chrysotile - A Right. Q --do you think it is medically sound to ascribe the mesothelioma to one exposure as opposed to another and when I say that amphibole as opposed to chrysotile. A I think you have to look at this in a number of ways. If you're going to talk about fiber synergy, fiber synergy is possible. There are some interesting observations which suggest that mixtures of fibers are more important than single fibers. However, if you look at the data upon which that is based, these data have been derived from trades, occupations and environments that use those kinds of products. So if an insulation worker or a shipyard worker used products which contained both amphibole and chrysotile m poorly ventilated work spaces, shipyard settings where there was a lot of fugitive Brody & Geiser (908) 283-1060 or (212) 732-0644 LANGER Direct 50 1 dust, very little ventilation, you would see in those 2 highly exposed individuals mixed fiber types. One 3 has to normalize the data on the basis of exposure, 4 and that has never been done. 5 Now, it's an interesting observation. In 6 fact, I have -- some of my data suggests that that 7 may be so. But there are too many confounders which 8 influence the data. There are other factors for 9 which we have little data and little information so I 10 am one of those people who thinks that it may be 11 possible but the information on relative exposures 12 are very, very scant. You can't come to any firm 13 conclusion. I have often said myself that if I found 14 in someone's pulmonary tissues a lot of crocidolite 15 and some chrysotile and this person succumbed with a 16 pleural mesothelioma merely based upon data of fiber 17 type and proportional mortality, I would assume that 18 the crocidolite played a greater role and it's 19 basically the same with amosite. You have to look at 20 the doses. 21 Q But you wouldn't say the chrysotile 22 played no role? 23 A Would I say the chrysotile played no role? It 24 played a much less role, yes. I'd say that. 25 Q Fair enough. If I may, and this may be a Brody & Geiser (908) 283-1060 or (212) 732-0644 LANGER Direct 51 1 little out of the ordinary so I apologize but based 2 upon your review of the information in this matter, 3 actually -- strike that. Let me ask one more 4 question before I get to that. Do you subscribe to 5 the theory expressed by some physicians that the 6 earlier exposures are more important than the late 7 exposures? I.e., if an individual started being 8 exposed in 1958 and developed mesothelioma in 1995, 9 do you subscribe to the belief that his exposures in 10 1958 through 1960 were the cause of the factor and 11 all those thereafter were not and you know what I'm 12 talking about? There's been an article by Morgan 13 some people try to interpret the Peto article based 14 upon the Selikoff data. Do you have a view one way 15 or another on that area? 16 MR. CAMPBELL: I just object to the 17 form. There are about eight different 18 questions in there and my specific objection 19 is I think the first time you asked whether it 20 was more significant and then the second time 21 you asked was it causative and the rest 22 irrelevant, which are two totally different 23 questions. 24 Q You know what I'm talking about? My 25 question is do you have a belief that earlier Brody & Geiser (908) 283-1060 or (212) 732-0644 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 LANGER Direct 52 exposures are more medically significant than later exposures if they're within that period that you discussed? I'm not talking about ten years before diagnosis or thereafter. A Based on the mathematics involved in risk assessment, the answer is yes. The earlier exposures carry far greater risk and greater weight and outcome. Q And why? A You're dealing with an agent which acts over a period of time and it takes a lot of time to produce this particular tumor so the further back one goes, the more likely the earlier exposures are the ones that are responsible. Although, the onset of exposure is terribly important in the generation of risk analysis of cumulative dose factors in there as well. But the earlier exposures drive the time function in that particular mathematical statement. Q Based upon your review of the data in this matter and before we get to the question, what did you review to formulate your opinions specifically in this case and I understand you have vast knowledge that you're aware of. I'm looking at what did you look at for particularly Mr. Norman's case? Brody & Geiser (908) 283-1060 or (212) 732-0644 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 LANGER Direct 53 A Mr. Norman's case, I looked at Mr. Norman's deposition. Q Do you remember whether it was his videotape or his discovery or both? A I believe I had the transcript of his video but it was the transcript of -- let me just follow my notes and I'll -- Q Please feel free. A All right. First there are the Answers to Interrogatories which I reviewed. There is his deposition. Q You're reviewing your notes now. What we'll do is we'll mark those P-5 for identification. (Exhibit P-5 was marked for Identification.) MR. CAMPBELL: Dr. Langer has on his notes a date of April 24, deposition I believe. MR. CIFALDI: That would be the discovery dep, I think. A Deposition 24 April '96, correct. I believe I saw some medical reports as well. There was also again notes, I believe this is the transcript of the video deposition of 2 May '96. I believe I saw some medical records as well but they are not -- they're Brody & Geiser (908) 283-1060 or (212) 732-0644 LANGER - Direct 55 A Well, there is no index in terms of a scale 2 but he lived approximately one, two, three, four, 3 five, six, seven, eight, maybe eight or nine blocks 4 from the plant, maybe ten blocks from the plant. 5 Q Can I see the map for a moment? 6A Sure. 7 Q I'm not familiar with Paterson. And the 8 Unarco plant was located on Wade Street? 9A Wade Street, that's right. 10 Q And Mr. Norman lived on Main Street? 11 A East Main Street. 12 Q And how long did he live there based upon 13 your review? 14 A He lived at 70 East Main Street from 1933 15 through 1960. 16 Q And you'd agree with me that his 17 residence is across the river, the Passaic River, 18 correct? 19 A I think that's correct, yes. 20 Q It's across the railroad tracks? 21 A That's correct. 22 Q Okay, Are you suggesting that he had 23 environmental exposure from the Unarco plant? 24 A I'll suggest the following to you, it's a 25 perfectly reasonable question. It is, as you know. Brody Sc Geiser (908) 283-1060 or (212) 732-0644 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 LANGER Direct 56 there are a number of mesotheliomas which occurred in individuals who are family members of the Paterson Unarco group cohort and environmental mesothelioma has been described in this particular setting, there is one mesothelioma which occurred in the owner of a junkyard which was across the street from the Paterson plant. I know of no other environmental mesotheliomas. However - MR. CAMPBELL: At that location? A Around the Unarco plant. MR. CAMPBELL: As opposed to in the world. A As opposed to in the world, that's correct. We're dealing with a fascinating social history, a fascinating occupational history in which each and every one of these exposures should be studied and if it begins in Unarco wich a residence and carries to a father who may carry dust home on his clothes from working with these materials or the fact as a young boy he helped his father in the plumbing trade and helped mix cement or worked as a youngster assisting his father, all of these -- or served in the Navy as a pipe fitter or steam fitter or whatever, all of these are factors which should be studied. I am not suggesting to you that any one of these, for example, Brody & Geiser (908) 283-1060 or (212) 732-0644 LANGER - Direct 57 1 Unarco is the one which produced this mesothelioma. 2 It is a possibility and had this person had no other 3 occupational history, I think that you would focus on 4 the Unarco experience and -- I'm sorry. 5 Q That's okay. You can keep going, I 6 thought you were done. 7A But basically each and every one of these are 8 possibilities that should be considered and I -- you 9 haven't asked me my opinion. 10 Q I didn't get to that yet. 11 A But I look specifically for amphibole 12 exposures. This is a mesothelioma and I'm delighted 13 that Mr. Norman is surviving and doing well. But 14 tissue burden studies would certainly indicate the 15 kinds of exposures he had and I hope I'm never called 16 upon to analyze his tissues. 17 Q Now, based upon your knowledge of the 18 studies of the Unarco plant - 19 A Right. 20 Q -- it is correct that any mesotheliomas 21 that developed were in family members, other than the 22 one junkyard exposure that you're talking about? 23 A That is my understanding of the data, yes. 24 Q So that from a scientific or medical 25 point of view, that would be fiber brought home on Brody & Geiser (908) 283-1060 or (212) 732-0644 LANGER Direct 58 1 the clothes of the worker? 2A That is considered to be the factor, yes. 3 Q Are you aware of any environmental cases 4 in the City of Paterson documented from the Unarco 5 plant? 6A No, there aren't any. 7 Q And in this case, do you have an opinion 8 within a reasonable degree of medical probability if 9 the fact that there was a Unarco plant eight blocks 10 away across the Passaic River played any role 11 whatsoever in Mr. Norman's mesothelioma? 12 A On the scientific evaluation of the literature 13 and on the science basis I believe that the 14 likelihood of this playing a significant role is 15 small. Now, this may be the first case but as I sit 16 here now and judge the literature, I think it's a 17 small role if a role at all. 18 Q Okay. Based upon your review of this 19 case, what do you believe were substantial 20 contributing factors in Mr. Norman's mesothelioma? 21 A First and foremost, I believe that we're 22 dealing with an amphibole etiology. I don't know all 23 of his exposures but I know some of them. I know 24 that his father was a plumber and if we follow the 25 general rules of exposures in dusty places in the Brody & Geiser (908) 283-1060 or (212) 732-0644 LANGER Direct 59 1 '40s and '50s, he's most certainly brought home 2 dusty clothing and I think there's a high probability 3 that he was exposed to dust from his father's 4 clothes. There is also high probability that when he 5 worked with his father as a youngster he was exposed 6 to asbestos containing materials as well. There is 7 also a high probability that when he served in the 8 United States Navy and engaged in activities in the 9 Navy, he was exposed to asbestos further.. 10 It is my understanding from reading documents 11 concerning the destroyer that he worked on, the 12 Cassin Young, that the amount of materials on that 13 ship reflected the guidelines used in the United 14 States Navy concerning insulation types and product 15 types which could be used on ship board. There was 16 ample opportunity for amphibole exposure in those 17 circumstances. There was ample exposure for amosites 18 as well. Given the specific product and the 19 brochures provided me with the descriptives of the 20 units which Mr. Norman installed in noncommercial 21 residences, the kind of asbestos products used based 22 on my reading of the literature and my own experience 23 concerning dust is generated from manipulating 24 asbestos-containing gaskets and ropes or wickings, 25 that the chrysotile exposure experienced in those Brody & Geiser (908) 283-1060 or (212) 732-0644 LANGER Direct 60 1 circumstances were minuscule and played a very minor 2 role in the etiology of his pleural mesothelioma. 3 Q What about if he was removing boilers? 4 Does that figure into your opinion? 5A No. 6 Q Do you believe the removal of boilers - 7 so not manipulating the rope but actually breaking it 8 apart and pulling it out and scraping out a gasket, 9 do you think that would play a role in his 10 mesothelioma? 11 A Let's talk about boilers. Are we talking 12 about these contained boilers? Are we talking about 13 knock down boilers? Are we talking about commercial 14 boilers? 15 Q We're talking about the boilers that 16 Mr. Norman mentioned in his deposition, packaged 17 boilers, but he's talked about pork chop boilers or 18 sectional boilers. 19 A The contained boilers he would not have to 20 have broken apart. They just go in and out as 21 units. It is my understanding from my own studies 22 that the removal of used gaskets produces, at least 23 in the gaskets that I studied, produces minuscule 24 levels of asbestos exposure. We are talking about he 25 did not replace these, these are old units. You talk Brody Sc Geiser (908) 283-1060 or (212) 732-0644 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 DANGER Direct 61 about the removal of boilers. I would think that those exposures were very small based on a reading of the literature and time weighted averages, these would be a very minor component to his overall exposure. Q What about his exposure to pipe covering during the time period he was a plumber? A That's a different story. Q What would your opinion be? For example, you recall him being exposed to Owens-Corning pipe covering. Based upon your knowledge, would that be a substantial contributing factor in his mesothelioma? A Well, without specific products, there have been studies of manipulation of asbestos-containing pipe insulation. These products -- this is a rip out. These product, I'm just assuming that you're talking about -- Q Let's actually break it down. That's a good point. Let's talk about installation and then let's talk about rip out. MR. CAMPBELL: Does the installation include cutting to size? MR. CIFALDI: Oh, sure. MR. CAMPBELL: Okay. A There was a study completed in the 1970s by Brody & Geiser (908) 283-1060 or (212) 732-0644 LANGER - Direct 62 1 Tebbens and colleagues, T-e-b-b-e-n-s on the 2 installation of -- actually and removal of a thermal 3 insulation products, there were four products studied 4 for pipe covering, products were designated by 5 alphabetical notation rather than product type and 6 the products were manipulated by hand sawing, by 7 scouring, by cutting with implements of various kinds 8 and the dust concentrations measured and the dust 9 concentrations varied from 40 fibers to a thousand 10 fibers per cc. So we're talking about an 11 extraordinary mission. The rip out of an old pipe 12 insulation in which the properties of the cementing 13 agent may change with time because of thermal stress, 14 the knock off with a hammer will generate enormous 15 aerosols. There are data from shipyards, poorly 16 ventilated work spaces in which insulation on pipes 17 approaches hundreds of fibers for sure. Again, these 18 are not time weighted averages. These are the 19 initial burst depending on the fiber, type and 20 depending on the fiber dimensions, the aerosol 21 stability will change with time but these are 22 considered to be -- what's the right word, important 23 exposures. 24 Q Were they important exposures for 25 Mr. Norman? Brody & Geiser (908) 283-1060 or (212) 732-0644 LANGER Direct 63 1A If he -- 2 Q Based upon your review of the 3 transcripts? 4A If he experienced these in poorly ventilated 5 areas for some proportion of his work time, these 6 must be calculated into his risk, yes. 7 Q And when you say that, would you consider 8 them substantial contributing factors in his 9 mesothelioma? 10 A I would consider it if these products 11 contained an amphibole fiber. We've talked about 12 amosite. There are pipe coverings of block that did 13 contain crocidolite as well. In fact, there was a 14 major manufacturing facility outside of 15 Johns-Manville that produced crocidolite block. This 16 could represent and I'm sitting here thinking what do 17 we know about the numerical values, not much, but 18 jusc on the basis of availability of data in the 19 literature and the availability of an amphibole 20 exposure, this would have a major role in the 21 etiology of the tumor. 22 Q And is it your understanding based upon 23 your review of the Rheem materials that it was 24 intended that the piping that went to and from the 25 boilers would be insulated with pipe covering? Brody & Geiser (908) 283-1060 or (212) 732-0644 LANGER - Direct 64 1A I don't think that that phrase was used. I 2 think that the -- you're talking about the new 3 connections. The new connections called for the use 4 of a - - either an asbestos-containing material or a 5 similar suitable material of the same properties. 6 Q Now, I'd like to ask the same series of 7 questions with regard to asbestos-containing wet 8 cement. 9A Wet cement already -- 10 Q Premixed? 11 A -- premixed. 12 Q Now, you've done some studies on 13 spackling materials after the material is installed 14 or sanded or chipped off? 15 A Right. 16 Q And what levels did you find with the 17 spackling materials? Can you approximate for me? 18 A Well, as you know, the spackling materials 19 represent -- represents a Plaster of Paris carbonate 20 kind of mixture and yes, we did find high levels of 21 of fibers liberated, although as I sit here, I have 22 problems extrapolating that data set to a cement 23 because we're dealing with a different matrix and a 24 different mechanical property. 25 Q Do you have an opinion then with regard Brody & Geiser (908) 283-1060 or (212) 732-0644 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 LANGER Direct 65 to the sanding or chipping of wet cements after they're installed? A The fiber release would probably be of much less and I'm stating that because the matrix material is so much harder. We're really dealing with very different materials after the crystallization. One is a basonite or a Plaster of Paris which is a relatively soft material and the other is a very durable indurated, tough, mechanically strong material. Q Would you agree that the fiber generated on sanding or chipping out the wet cements would certainly be far in excess from packaging or gasketing material? A Far in excess? I think it may be -- it may be higher. I'm sitting here thinking would it be higher. It may be higher. I don't know how much higher, the packings, the wickings could be graphite impregnated and you're not going to see much there. If you use an aggressive physical -- I mean if you use a jackhammer, obviously you're going to generate a dust. But if you're going to whack it off with a hammer, depending on the particle size, I don't know. You know this is an interesting problem here. I don't know. Brody & Geiser (908) 283-1060 or (212) 732-0644 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 LANGER Direct 66 Q If we can, can we refer to your oral report for a moment? A Sure, why not? Q Page 2 and maybe you can just refer to the one you have your notes on. A Right. Q You say that -- this is just above the bottom paragraph there on Page 2A. "Dr. Langer will further base his opinion that the asbestos-containing rope and gaskets contain and certain Rheem and Richmond gaskets contain chrysotile asbestos only on the appearance and characteristics of those products." Have you looked at the products? A They're described in - - I believe in Mr. Norman's deposition. He said that these were white ropes or gray ropes. Q So the appearance you're basing it on is Mr. Norman's description, not looking at the products yourself? A I have not seen the products directly but the characteristics of the products meaning that if you read the boiler brochures like these are residential hot water heaters, these are low temperature gizmos. They heat water to whatever, 140 degrees Fahrenheit, 160 degrees Fahrenheit, you would not require Brody & Geiser (908) 283-1060 or (212) 732-0644 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 LANGER Direct 67 terribly high temperature materials. As a matter of fact, you may not even require asbestos on a lot of these things. Q When he says white rope, would that indicate to you that that's not graphite impregnated because if it was, it would be more of a dark gray material? A Yes. Q So is it fair that it is not graphite material at least based on his description? A At least based on his description, yes. Q Fair enough. I don't want to go into a long discussion but certainly should not limit you but on Page 3 it says, "Dr. Langer will state that the difference in the relative carcinogenicity of the different fiber types is largely a result of the mineralogic differences between these fibers." A Among these fibers. Okay. "Between" is what is written. Q Yes. A All right. Q Should it be among? A Well, if you have more than two. Q I didn't think it was highly significant. Could you explain what you mean by Brody & Geiser (908) 283-1060 or (212) 732-0644 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 DANGER - Direct that? A All right. This is what I believe, I believe the original description of mesothelioma in South Africa -- Q By Dr. Wahner? A Wahner-Sleggs Marchand reported the distribution of mesotheliomas in the area of South Africa, in the western Cape province centered around crocidolite deposits. Interestingly South Africa mined and milled not only crocidolite but amosite and chrysotile and if you look at the distribution of mesotheliomas following up, for example, several years later the development of a South Africa mesothelioma reference manual, the distribution of mesothelioma continued to be mostly around the chrysotile areas, the Kuruman, K-u-r-u-m-a-n area. The Transvaal amosite had very few. There may have been four described of which two had prior experience in the crocidolite area. Now, that was interesting because there's a little bit of crocidolite in that Transvaal area in a mine called Petersburg and then, of course, they had the major chrysotile deposits down in Havelock and Barbitone and they had no mesotheliomas down there. I think there was one reported. Brody & Geiser (908) 283-1060 or (212) 732-0644 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 LANGER Direct 69 Q Did those mines all open at the same time? A A little different, as a matter of fact. They opened at different times but all of them had more than 30 years from onset of exposure. Q So there was sufficient latency? A Yeah, I think there was sufficient latency there. Now, the pneumoconiosis research unit in Wales was struck by an unusual distribution and Vernon Timbrel1, T-i-m-b-r-e-1-1 and Fuley and Farvaga explored the possibility that there was physical chemical properties of the fibers which controlled this pattern, this distribution of tumors and they examined fibers from the different mines and the different mills and they clearly showed that the amphibole fibers, the crocidolite was very much thinner and that the settling velocity of a fiber was proportional to che diameter. It's actually a - it's about equal to one over the diameter squared, something like chat. And what they showed was that the fibers from the Cormin (phonetic) area tended to be aerosol stable because of the narrow diameter they tended to have a greater inhalation potential and these were the fibers that could get out to the distant sites of the pulmonary -- Brody & Geiser (908) 283-1060 or (212) 732-0644 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 LANGER Direct 70 Q And the Cormin area is crocidolite? A Indeed, that's right. And they compared these fibers with the Petersburg crocidolite and the amosites from the various mines of South Africa in the Transvaal, for example, the large Penge Mine P-e-n-g-e and they found -- and they compared this with the fibers produced from Finland which is an anthophyllite fiber, a-n-t-h-o-p-h-y-l-l-i-t-e, and the anthophyllite fiber was very broad and there is no mesothelioma his reported there. Q Recently there's been some reported in the literature, wasn't there, in Finland with regard to anthophyllite? A Yes, but the anthophyllite typically showed mixed fibers so that is still unresolved but if you look at the delivered dose to the target tissues, certainly crocidolite is far more capable of being inhaled than the other amphibole types. Now, Vernon Timbrell also did some experimental work using glass casts of a pig lung and he mechanically hooked up a breathing apparatus to this mechanical cast and he used aerosols of crocidolite and amosite and chrysotile and that's where the curly hypothesis was generated that it was approximately six times more dust collected on a filter at the end of the terminal Brody & Geiser (908) 283-1060 or (212) 732-0644 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 LANGER Direct 71 bronchial from an aerosol of crocidolite as compared to chrysotile. What this says is that if there's an aerosol with different fiber types, the amphiboles are more efficacious at penetrating the pulmonary architect of chrysotile and this was the beginning of physical chemical properties influencing biological outcome. Q So if I can just maybe put this in more layman's terms - A I thought I did. Q What you're basically describing is that since at least the size is over 20 microns, chrysotile fiber is a more curly, wavy as you were taken straight sticks, it's less likely to be inhaled into the deep portions of the lung. Is that basically what you're describing here? A Well, you use the 20 micron cut-off. That's kind of interesting. It is in our body and it is in most products more curly but you're talking about the stuff that you can get down to vary small particle sizes, is there a difference in chrysotile, chrysotile actually does have a little bit of a curl and has a greater -- because of its radius of curvature, it does have a different diameter. They're very short stuff. I mean if you're talking Brody & Geiser (908) 283-1060 or (212) 732-0644 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 LANGER Direct 72 about stuff less than a micron. It's all straight, sure. Q What about 5 microns five or less, would you agree most of that is straight? A No. Q What's your view? A My view is that when you start to get down at the 5 micron and less, you still see curly, when I say curly bundles, bundles with curvature I'm not saying 180 degree turn around, I'm saying a curvature which is more marked than for the amphiboles. They look like straight sticks certainly amosite of course. Crocidolite, well, it depends on where you get your crocidolite from. Q Do you think that would be the reason that when you look into the pleural tissue the chrysotile you're finding is generally shorter chrysotile based upon maybe the physical chemical characteristics you're espousing here? Would that make some scientific sense? A Well, I think that when you look at the short stuff out there, if it was in the pulmonary tract to begin with, it was removed, could have been removed in the lymphatics and it could drain along the pleura. It could be originally inhaled that way or Brody & Geiser (908) 283-1060 or (212) 732-0644 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 LANGER Direct 73 it could be breakdown product of some other -- Q Because you did agree with me that maybe up to 95 percent of the fiber at least used in the United States, chrysotile was at least under 5 microns. You agreed to that before? A We're talking about commercial stuff now? Q Yes. A That's a very interesting question. The commercial stuff, there is no such thing as a short commercial fiber, if I may be so bold as to suggest that. If you look at the sizing method, the Quebec Screening Method. The Quebec Screening Method is a method used to size fibers in which 16 -- a pound of material is put on a screen and there are three screens in a series and a catchment plate -- well, that bottom screen is of such size that particles less than, I think it's about a thousand microns - it's about a million meter in length, fall through it. And depending on the amount of material caught on each of these screens, it determines the grade so if you're talking about textile grades there's a lot of long stuff up on top. So the nearest ounce, a textile grade may be 14, 2, 0, 0, something like that. A material used in a floor tile may be 0, 2, 6, 8, something like that, or the stuff that's in the Brody & Geiser (908) 283-1060 or (212) 732-0644 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 LANGER Direct 74 throat or the stuff from California, maybe 0, 0, 1, 15, but it doesn't mean it's short fiber biologically. Q I guess it may be the next question I should ask you, are you familiar, is there a difference between the fiber, the chrysotile fiber mined in South Africa as opposed to the chrysotile fiber mined in che Canadian mines? A You mean in terms of? Q Physical characteristics? A I believe that the fibers from South Africa - you're talking about the Republic of South Africa? Q Yes. A TRSA, the fibers tended to be a little more harsh. My understanding so that when they made their way to the textile mills or the mills in Great Britain, there was a -- the Canadian fibers at least received in the United Kingdom were more spinnable or "better quality", better quality put that: in quotes, for whatever that application was. The South African fibers occupied a more intermediate space quality and the Russian fibers were the poorest qualities. They were very harsh. Q Is there some reason, do you have an opinion as to why in the Quebec chrysotile miners Brody & Geiser (908) 283-1060 or (212) 732-0644 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 LANGER Direct 75 there was clearly a higher rate of mesothelioma than seen in the chrysotile miners in South Africa? A Well, let's talk about rates, the rates in the mines and mills of Quebec, that would be the eastern townships all of the work of Corbett McDonald or let's take Bill Nicholson? Why not. Let's take Nicholson's work 1979, Thedford Miners and Millers. He had approximately -- floor 28 lung cancers, 11 were expected, 18 excess and it produced whatever the SMR was, the standardized mortality ratio and it was very similar to some of the values produced by Corbett McDonald. He saw one mesothelioma in the connected materials because they have best evidence in the Mount Sinai groups. So there was one mesothelioma that accounted for about 0.5 percent of the mortality, maybe there were 179 deaths, 181, something like that. South African experience is a little more difficult to deal with because of follow-up. So there are two issues, one is ascertainment. Do you know what you're looking at? Do you know what killed someone and the other is follow-up. If someone works for five years and then returns to Zaire, how good is the follow-up? In other words, not very good. So the data from South Africa are kind of suspect in that regard. Although Brody & Geiser (908) 283-1060 or (212) 732-0644 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 LANGER Direct 76 the compensation for asbestos disease in South Africa requires that if a miner or miller dies that the thoracic organs be examined. So that -- at least in the northwest cape province in the Transvaal the ascertainment was a hell of a lot better but if it was a migratory population follow-up is difficult so there are some questions about numbers. Q With regard to the mesotheliomas caused in the chrysotile mines in Canada, do you hold an opinion as to whether those mesotheliomas were induced by the chrysotile or by the alleged tremolite contamination? A I like the way you said that, the alleged. Q Well, there is some question as to whether or not there is tremolite contamination. A That's right. If the doses are high enough, I will follow the suggestion of Andrew Churg that if the doses are high enough, in fact the amount of fiber he found in the pulmonary tissues of those six mesotheliomas that he reported on in a number of 90 some odd that the amount of fiber is of such high level that it's sufficient to produce asbestosis as well. I think that that's generally correct. You need a whopping dose to see mesothelioma in chrysotile exposed workers. Now, I'm saying Brody Sc Geiser (908) 283-1060 or (212) 732-0644 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 LANGER - Direct 77 chrysotile. You asked about tremolite. The tremolite may be present. Well, it is not ubiquitous. There is a temporal fluctuation, a time fluctuation and geographic distribution and the material that they call tremolite may or may not be tremolite asbestos but rather maybe tremolite cleavage fragment. Q Which would have no biologic activity? A It has about 300,000 times less based on animal studies or it may be some calcium magnesium silicate but there is something very different about the distribution of these other silicate minerals in the eastern township. You see more of them in the Thedford area than down in the asbestos Quebec area. Did I answer your question. Q I'm not sure? A I'm not sure either so let me continue. MR. CAMPBELL: Let him ask another question. Q I think you did answer my question but let me get some sound bite so it's better. Based upon the explanation that you just gave me, are you saying that you're willing to say that in at least those particular cases that chrysotile was the cause of the mesothelioma and it wasn't as a result of some Brody & Geiser (908) 283-1060 or (212) 732-0644 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 LANGER Direct 78 potential or alleged tremolite contaminations? A In those few cases, yes, I think that the chrysotile is implicated. Now, this is not -- this may not be widely held but that is my opinion based upon my knowledge of the mineralogy and geology and the tissue burden studies. Q Fair enough. Do you have a view as to what types of fibers would go into asbestos cements? Was that purely chrysotile? A No, asbestos cements occasionally -- well, asbestos cement pipe, a high pressure pipe with a diameter of greater than 20 inches invariably - well, up until 20 years ago contained crocidolite. Q At least some of them? A At least some of them. Although there have been manufacturing processes which did use chrysotile only. Q Now, can you say with any certainty as to any of the pipe coverings Mr. Norman used contained crocidolite or you have no information one way or the other? A I have no information. Q Fair enough. With regard to asbestos cement, I'm not talking about asbestos pipe now, based upon your knowledge that you've gained, did Brody & Geiser (908) 283-1060 or (212) 732-0644 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 LANGER - Direct 79 asbestos dry or wet cements only contain chrysotile? A I don't know. Q Okay,, A They may not have contained asbestos. I mean there are cements that do not contain asbestos. Q Well, let's say the one that they did say contained asbestos. Companies manufacture asbestos cement. You're familiar with some of them? A Yes. Q Did they also contain chrysotile or did they also contain amphiboles? A According to my own knowledge, the cements used -- other than pipe, transite pipe contained chrysotile. Whether or not they contained an amphibole as well, I don't know. That may be a formulation of the individual manufacturer. Q And you have no knowledge one way or the other? A No. Q Fair enough. Now, on the last paragraph if I may explore it a little of your oral report. You have that there? A Yes.. Q It mentions there are several asbestos free cements suitable for use on or in boilers. Can Brody & Geiser (908) 283-1060 or (212) 732-0644 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 LANGER Direct 80 you tell me when they first became available? A I have a brochure from Johns-Manville and I brought some of these which are dated, we were doing work, the insulation hygiene study at Mount Sinai in the late '60s and early '70s and I knew from my own experience that there were a number of nonasbestos containing cements and products like fire box walls and things like that which contained refractory materials which did not contain asbestos and indeed these are from the late '60s. I cannot speak for time periods before then. Q So - A Mines -- Q I'm sorrywhat you'respeaking now is late '60s forward? A That's right. Q Would youagree that thesubstitutes or the asbestos free cements were generally utilized m higher temperature environments because they & withstood more temperature than asbestos did? A Generally, these were high temperature applications. Q Okay. A Generally so, yes. Q So if you were -- like in an industrial Brody & Geiser (908) 283-1060 or (212) 732-0644 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 LANGER Direct 81 setting, I mean if you were in a residential setting you wouldn't need these higher temperature substitutes? A I don't know. That's a question of Mr. Norman and the plumbers whether they -- it's very much like an application in which one of the trades has a material from some other job site? Would they use up the material that they had, they probably would. I don't know. This is a question of the plumbing supply houses and so on. Q Okay. Let's see. Now, there's also some yellow notes here that consists of, it looks like four pages and if we can mark that P-6 for identification. (Exhibit P-6 was marked for Identification.) Q Can you tell me what these yellow notes are chat are marked P-6 for identification? A Well, this is obviously my notes on the history in the Navy. I see here -- well, they are a little out of order but I see products on the Cassin Young, a Fletcher Cast Destroyer on which Mr. Norman served. He was a pipe fitter and boiler operator and I went to the -- I read the report showing the various products that were used on the ship as Brody & Geiser (908) 283-1060 or (212) 732-0644 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 LANGER - Direct 82 preserved 40 years earlier, preserved in this particular naval museum. I was interested in bystander exposure from work on ships and ship board. Q So you looked at the Harris article? A I looked at the Harris as a starter, that's right and I looked at some of the data that I had on the studies from Mount Sinai when we should I had shipyard workers including Groton, Connecticut which was a pipe fitters local and the amount of materials and so on and so forth and the bystander exposures and the fact that ship board exposures are considerable and important. Then on Page 3 just to calculate relative risk, the early events in fact we spoke about this, the early events as compared to the late events and just based on the time function. Q Is it fair to say that you reviewed the information on the Cassin Young after your oral report was prepared? A Yeah, I think so, yeah. Q Okay, A I basically describe exposure if someone mixed muds, my green sheets shows the insulation hygiene reports that were published in the -- they were published four times a year in the asbestos worker on the nature of dust generated in various insulating Brody & Geiser (908) 283-1060 or (212) 732-0644 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 LANGER - Direct 83 activities such as mixing muds and cements and stuff like that, the importance of fugitive dust and the articles by tension and on the pipe fitting and removal, so on and so forth. So these represent my stream of consciousness on where the risks occurred, the finer types, the environments of working on a ship, what kind of an experience is generated there and based on the very early exposures in a ship with an amphibole product using the union carcinogen factor of amosite sufficient like that and the relative dose what would the risks be starting in 1940 and 1950 and so on and so forth. Q We'll get to that in a moment. Do you remember when the Cassin Young was decommissioned? A No. Q It the report that you read on the Cassin Young was that a report on the pipe covering and other asbestos products that were on the Cassin Young when Mr. Norman was on it? A This is the Cassin Young frozen in time sitting in a dock in New England somewhere in which insulation products, covers and other materials were examined, specimens obtained and analyzed. Q So that's now? A This is time equals now. This would be 24 Brody & Geiser (908) 283-1060 or (212) 732-0644 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 LANGER Direct 84 July 1996. Q So do we know -- does that mean that's what was on the ship when Mr. Norman was on it? A One assumes that. Someone would have to verify that who was there serving on the ship. Q Well, I'm saying how do we know that what's in that report was what was on there? Pipe covering gets installed and removed, right? A Sure. Q So wouldn't it be important when the ship was decommissioned because if the ship was decommissioned in the '60s it would certainly be a fair assumption that that insulation was removed at least once since the 1950s? MR. CAMPBELL: Objection to the form of the question. That's not necessarily a fair assumption. You can argue that to the jury. You can ask him his opinion. A It's possible, sure. Q Wouldn't it be actually probable? A I don't know when the ship was decommissioned and I had the very same question myself. We are looking at an historical sample and the question is how far back do these samples go? It's possible that everything's been changed on the ship. It's possible Brody & Geiser (908) 2S3-1060 or (212) 732-0644 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 LANGER Direct . 85 but if the ship was commissioned during the Second World War, everything on the ship might have been anthophyllite but again this is unknown at least to me. Q And when you reviewed Mr. Norman's depositions, did you note that he indicated he had exposure or didn't have exposure at least to his knowledge in the Navy? A He said he was not exposed. Q Okay. A At least not directly exposed. Q So do you have an opinion if Mr. Norman was exposed on the ship? A Probably yes. Q Directly orindirectly orboth? A It could have been he may have forgotten or maybe his testimony is accurate and it may have been fugitive dust. Q Fair enough. A But if we're talking about the pipes being repaired or whatever, he was probably exposed to at least to fugitive dust. Q But there are a lot of cold water pipes on ships, too, aren't there? A Yes, the ships do have insulation on those Brody & Geiser (908) 283-1060 or (212) 732-0644 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 LANGER - Direct 86 pipes which are low temperature insulation to keep the pipes from -- I think the term is sweating. Q Sweating and that's most of the times not asbestos? A Or a mixture of cellulose and chrysotile. It could have been fiberglass. That's correct. Q Okay, You were one of the authors in an article entitled Asbestos Exposure During Brake Line Maintenance and Repair that appeared in Environmental Research in 1976, correct? A Yes. Q With Dr. Rohl and - A Yes. Q --a couple others? A Et al. Q Et al. A Right. Q Okay? A I'm glad you're reading chat paper. It's a good one. MR. CIFALDI: Off the record. (A discussion was held off the record.) Q There'sa comment -- that's actually a couple of comments that I'd like to go over if I may with you. Brody & Geiser (908) 283-1060 or (212) 732-0644 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 LANGER - Direct 87 A Sure. Q I understand that this was written in 1976 . A Right. Q And please feel free that if there's something you don't agree with anymore, just tell me. I'm not saying this has to be your view now. So you're free to tell me that. A Thank you. Q There's a point here on Page 1250 and the sentence I'm concerned with is as follows, and let me read the whole sentence actually. "In ten brake drum dust samples examined, it was found that asbestos fibers shorter than .4 micrometers predominated. The OSHA asbestos standard does not require that short fibers (Less than five micrometers in length) be counted or controlled. This oversight may have considerable biological significance in that small chrysotile fibers readily produce asbestos disease." Did you agree with that statement at che time it was written? A Yes. Q Do you still agree with that statement? A It's kind of interesting. This statement again is a statement which reflects the data at that Brody & Geiser (908) 283-1060 or (212) 732-0644 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 LANGER Direct 88 time. There were experiments which showed that short fiber did produce disease at least in animals. We knew at that time that the five microns fiber length was an index and it was based on a number of prevailing theories on the origin of asbestosis. We knew that this five micron fiber length was generated as a tool for the microscopies because it was very difficult to diagnose shorter fibers and it led to a lot of variability in assays. We knew all these things. At that time we were unwilling to dismiss very short fiber. However as time went on and a number of other experiments, the work of Davis and JM had Davis in Edinburgh, the work in some of the German laboratories, the work of -- the work of others generally so, short fiber has much less biological potential. Now, I knew at that time in fact we published on this that it depends how you get the short fiber. I believe that the grinding and the stresses to which chrysotile is subjected at that brake interface alters the properties of chrysotile and we followed that up in 1978 with the paper on the progressive milling of chrysotile asbestos and showed that when you milled the hell out of these things they lost biological potential and I think that that is so -- my beliefs are that the bulk of the problems Brody & Geiser (908) 283-1060 or (212) 732-0644 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 LANGER Direct 89 of the brake industry arose from the beveling and fitting and re-arcing and refurbishing of materials and products using devices which did not produce short fiber but produced an aerosol of virtually unaltered fiber. Q So grinding? A You can grind a brake and because of the phenolic resin binder, you can pull fibers out of that. Q You can? A Can, yes. Q Yes. A C-a-n pull fibers out of it and we believe that some of the levels that we found for example, beveling and fitting truck brakes which is a bigger brake surface and a different kind of device and so on could play -- could generate an aerosol with biologic activity, yes. Q Now, in the article we're referring to, I believe you also did some levels of sweeping the floors around the grinder, correct? A Yeah, there was a few, there was -- there were a few measurements made in sweeping; sweeping raises dust. Q Do you believe with regard to the Brody & Geiser (908) 283-1060 or (212) 732-0644 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 LANGER Direct 90 installation of asbestos products that reentrainment has to be something to be considered when you're looking at the fiber exposure or the total exposure. A It's factor, yes. MR. CIFALDI: Off the record. (A discussion was held off the record.) Q Do you remember writing a paper to the Environmental Protection Agency in 1986 about some of the restrictions and proposals that they were presenting? A Yes. Q As you sit here today, do you believe chrysotile should be banned in the United States? A No, for most applications, no. Q Why is that? A I believe that when you look at the risks associated with chrysotile asbestos and you look at the fiber levels which are found today and you look at the control strategies and methodologies used in most industries, that the risks associated with those low level exposures to chrysotile asbestos compares favorably with risks associated with substitutes and there are applications with substitutes which do not perform as well and these substitutes may be problematic in and of themselves. Brody & Geiser (908) 283-1060 or (212) 732-0644 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 LANGER Direct 91 Q Do you believe there should be any appropriate controls recommended if the use of chrysotile continues? A Of course. Q What would you suggest? A The controls are those controls which are used today that should be a stringent work practice, that workers who handle asbestos products should not smoke cigarettes -- well they shouldn't smoke cigarettes anyway. Q Period. A That there are varied strength respirators available which are comfortable which are safe, which should be used. That the general environment should be protected and we can continue to use a very good product at very little risk. Q You also wrote an article in 1971 Chrysotile Asbestos in the lungs of persons in New York City? A Right. Q Did you ever analyze the lungs of persons in New Jersey? A No ------- wait a minute, I misspoke, I analyzed maybe a half dozen cases of Unarco workers with amosite, of course. I analyzed the lung tissue of a Brody & Geiser 908) 283-1060 or (212) 732-0644 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 LANGER - Direct 92 worker in a plant somewhere in New Jersey exposed to be anthophyllite asbestos. I analyzed the lung of a worker exposed to vermiculite, I analyzed the worker exposed to talc but not a systematic study. Q In the study that you did in New York -- A Yes. Q -- and maybe you've updated this date and I'm not sure. What levels did you find for dry gram or wet gram just for nonoccupational exposure? A There was data published in a paper in 1991 or 1992. I'm not sure. Q Is it on your CV? A Yes. Q Can you point it out to me? A Yes. Q The article that you've marked is the one you were talking about it's number 60 on your references here - A Yes. Q -- that you've written. Have you ever spoken to DRI? MR. CAMPBELL: Who? Q DRI, Defense Research Institute? A You mean have I ever had any dealings with them? Brody & Geiser (908) 283-1060 or (212) 732-0644 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 LANGER Direct 93 Q Yes. A Yes, they've invited me to present at some of their meetings, their conferences, yes. Q On how many occasions have you presented if you can recall? A Several. Q When was the most recent? A I think they had a meeting in New York and I shared the platform with Bernard Gee G-e-e. Q Was that the Marriott Marquis, was it not? A The Marriott Marquis is correct. Don't ask me to spell that. I think it's two Rs and two Ts. Q And the outline that went with the presentation, was that prepared by you? A I don't recall. Q And I didn't bring it with me, oh, well. A I think that was Bernie Gee's outline. Q Okay. (A discussion was held off the record.; MR. CIFALDI: I believe that's all the questions I have. What I'd request is if we can just kind of assemble. Can I have those for a moment. MR. CAMPBELL: Absolutely. Brody & Geiser (908) 283-1060 or (212) 732-0644 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 LANGER Direct 94 Q Actually there was one thing that I wanted to open up so back on the record. I lied. A You misspoke.. Q I misspoke. That's a better term. In what is marked P-6 for identification. Doctor, you have some relative risks, I believe, that you've written down here? A Yes. Q Could you just explain it to me? A What this shows is the general -- Q And if you don't mind, I'm just going to go over your shoulder. A Sure, can I haveyour pen? MR. CAMPBELL: Black good? A Yeah. The generalformula, that mathematical formula that we talked about which defines risk in terms of mesothelioma is based on three general factors, one is the cumulative dust which means the more you're exposed, the worst off you are. Second is a value called, it's a constant, a K sub M. That is the unit carcinogenicity basically for mesothelioma and this brings in fiber type because the KSM values change according to fiber type, depending on your cohorts. Then there's a time factor and it's really time from onset of exposure Brody & Geiser (908) 283-1060 or (212) 732-0644 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 LANGER Direct 95 and another time factor which is your time of total exposure over which you have cumulative dose. This is raised time is raised to an expediential power of some kind. Normally it's somewhere between three and four as defined in Julian Peto's paper and that paper is Peto, Sideman and Selikoff. Q That's the one based on he tried to fit the model but he only used ten people, didn't he? A Correct, correct, correct, this is based on ten data points from Irving Selikoff's insulation worker cohort. Q Hasn't he cautioned people in subsequent chapters he's written that you really shouldn't be applying this to situations because it's only a model based on ten people and it's never been formulated to other situations? A This is correct and this has been raised in a number of meetings, Q Okay. I'm sorry. A This is absolutely correct. It has been in some fashion adopted by the Consumer Product Safety Commission of the United States, by the United States Environmental Protection Agency, by the National Institute for Occupational Safety and Health, by the International Program for Occupational Safety so on Brody & Geiser (908} 283-1060 or (212) 732-0644 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 LANGER Direct 96 and so forth. Q All on those ten people? A You are correct. This is based on ten data points and if you were to explore the original description which would be the 1983 paper, there's - or there are contained -- there is contained within that document a number of statements which state that this is for the insulation workers, this follows exposure to amphibole fibers and that given different exposures to different fiber types in different situations, this may vary, yes, you're correct. But you're asking me about these risks. Q Let me short circuit a little because I think I understand it now that you've explained it to me. The numbers you have here from 1940 to 1980, they are not specifically with regard to Mr. Norman? They're just the general presentation of the risks? A Yes, I have time and the event took place in 1940, 1950, '60, '70, '80 so we have five decades here. Q What would the constant you would use for the relative carcinogenicity of chrysotile versus amosite what percentages, that's there. I'm sorry. A You'll see down here when you look at proportional mortality if you look at Jeffrey Berry's Brody & Geiser (908) 283-1060 or (212) 732-0644 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 LANGER Direct 97 description to the 1986 biological effects of chrysotile which was the General Motors meeting held in Cardiff reviewing the world literature, the mesotheliomas produced by chrysotile only average about 0.3 percent where as you if you look at the amosite cohorts, it's about 1.9 percent so there's about a six fold difference in the ability to produce human mesothelioma. Q Have you seen Dr. Rogly's recent publication when he gives a fiber gradient, have you seen that paper? A I've seen the paper but I cannot address the details unless you have a copy here. Q Yeah, I might. A Good. In the exchange that occurred in the American Journal of Industrial Medicine. Oh, there we go. American Journal of Industrial Medicine, an unimpeachable source. Q I must agree with you. MR. CAMPBELL: Let the record reflect that it was said with some degree of sarcasm. Q Let me draw your attention to page - there just happens to be a tab on it, Page 612, are you familiar with that? A Yes. Brody & Geiser (908) 283-1060 or (212) 732-0644 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 DANGER - Direct 98 Q Do you have a view as to whether you agree ordisagree with that? A Idisagree with it. Q Okay. And why? A First of all, we're dealing with apples and oranges. This is what it says. Basically it says that there is a growing consensus that its fibers that actuate within the lung that are responsible for the development of asbestos associated diseases including mesothelioma. So it's not the fibers of the pleura but the fibers in the lung. If this is indeed the case then the results of the present study I indicate that with respect to the occurrence of malignant mesothelioma in the United States the order of importance of various asbestos fiber types and then he gives an order but this is also based on use and exposure and the number of people who are exposed. So he says amosite produces more mesothelioma than tremolite. I want to know the form of tremolite if it's tremolite asbestos tremolite is not used widely in the United States. There are not many people exposed to it. He defines tremolite on the basis of his particular instrument which is a scanning electron might be scope so he says that amosite is greater than tremolite. Well, I believe Brody & Geiser (908) 283-1060 or (212) 732-0644 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 LANGER Direct 99 that, sure, but he says tremolite is greater than chrysotile, is he talking about --he says chrysotile is about equal to crocidolite. Well, he doesn't find much chrysotile and he says well since we don't find much crocidolite and since we are dealing with people exposed in the United States, then this is for malignant mesothelioma in the United States, this has no relevance to anything other than the fact that this is what he finds and he thinks that this is based on what his findings with a scanning microscope and what kinds of products to which people are exposed. This has no relevance in the large context but let's say that we have a plumber who is exposed to crocidolite containing insulation in 1940 and this person succumbs with a pleural mesothelioma. Although the figures for asbestos consumption in the United States may reflect a general trend like this, in that specific case it may have absolutely no meaning. This particular mesothelioma was caused by crocidolite. Q So you need to look at the facts of each particular case. A Yes, one needs to look at each individual case. Q Good. Back to the chart that: you put Brody & Geiser (908) 283-1060 or (212) 732-0644 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 LANGER Direct 100 together here so the numbers we're using for chrysotiles 1.3 and amosite is 1.9. Now, is it fair to say that where you have 1951 and 1957 that's a calculation you made with regard to Mr. - A No, no,no. Q It is not? A No, no,no. Q What is that? A This particular calculation is based ------- let's say in 1951 in the United States Navy Mr. Norman was exposed to fugitive dust. Q Uh-huh. A That was 44 yearsprior to theappearance of that disease. The lastten years don't matter. So it would be 34 years raised to the 3.5 exponential which exceeds a value of about 230,000. Beginning in 1957, he started to work with these other materials, that was 38 years ago and we neglect the last ten years of exposure, that's 2 8 years raised to 3.5. It has nothing to do with fiber type and it has nothing to do with -- Q With dose? A -- with dose. It's just a general kind of feel for how does time play into this. And that's why very early on, I talked about the earlier Brody & Geiser (908) 283-1060 or (212) 732-0644 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 LANGER - Direct 101 exposures appear to be of much greater importance than the later exposure. Q So these numbers are not taking into account dose? A Not yet, no, that's correct, nor finer type. Q Did you do any calculations any further or is that where you stopped? A I just stopped there. I'm just looking at general time periods. I'm looking at general fibers. I'm looking at onset of exposure and I'm looking at the time. Q Fair enough. A So if we're dealing with Marine Boilers which were installed in residential settings and he installed 50 such boilers over a certain time period, this would all be factored in eventually given fiber type or given dose, given time. Q And you haven't done that in this case? A No, but we can do it now if you'd like. MR. CIFALDI: You raised it. A You raised it. I mean we can certainly go through that exercise. I feel comfortable with my position based on the social history and occupational history that these earlier exposures to these particular products were contained agents which are Brody & Geiser (908) 283-1060 or (212) 732-0644 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 LANGER - Direct 102 not to produce human mesothelioma even at lower levels than one generally finds. Q To save time here for all of us - A Please. Q --if Mr. Campbell plans to have you do that at the time of trial, I request that I be given a calculation in advance? A Sure. MR. CAMPBELL: Absolutely. MR. CIFALDI: That's fine. I believe I'm done. If we could, I'd like to mark the correspondence file as P-7. (Exhibit P-7 was marked for Identification.) MR. CIFALDI: P-7 are letters dated July 16, '95, August 14, '96, August 26, '96, September 23, '95, October 15, '95, October 23, '95. CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. REIMERS: Q Very few questions, Doctor, if I might.. Was that the Tebbens and Collins study that you referred to earlier? A It's Tebbens, I think Clark Cooper was part of it and Leroy Balsa was part of item. Q I think you said there were four kinds of Brody & Geiser (908) 283-1060 or (212) 732-0644 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 LANGER Cross 103 insulation products? A ABC and D. Q One was pipe covering? A Pipe covering, I believe there was also some block and there was a tear out as well. Q What are the other two types of products? A I beg your pardon. Q The other two types of products? A There may have been some cloth and there may have been some gaskets, Q Okay. A But I don't want to misspeak. It's an interesting study. Q The asbestos that is contained in the gaskets that are associated with the Marine Boilers was that asbestos encapsulated? A The gasket's impregnated in a latex. It's a rubber base. That is my understanding. Q What effect does that have on would you say the biological potential, is that a good term? A Well, it has several effects. Number one, it encapsulates fibers and they're less likely to be liberated and number two if fibers are released they may contain components of the matrix meaning that certain functional sites on the minerals may be Brody & Geiser (908) 283-1060 or (212) 732-0644 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 LANGER Cross 104 blocked. Q Would that be the same if the, what if asbestos cement which contained the asbestos was encapsulated? MR. CIFALDI: Objection. A There are reports from Europe suggesting chat some of the cement components do adhere to some of the fibers. MR. REIMERS: Thank you. MS. STEWARD: No questions. CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. CAMPBELL: Q Dr. Langer when Mr. Cifaldi was asking you questions he raised one question concerning the use of high temperature nonasbestos containing cements in domestic uses. A Right. Q Specifically addressing boilers, Dr. Langer, do you have an opinion concerning the use of nonasbestos containing cements within combustion chambers? A There were -- in fact, Johns-Manville, the brochures that I've reviewed, Johns-Manville produced a combustion chamber cement which was a refractory cement with a notation that for best performance one should match the cement and the combustion chamber Brody & Geiser (908) 283-1060 or (212) 732-0644 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 LANGER - Cross 105 material so there are refractories which - refractory materials used for combustion chambers and the cements used around the combustion chambers, the same material, refractory. Q And when you say refractories, you mean nonasbestos containing? A Nonasbestos containing, correct. Q You also mentioned generally data of which you were aware concerning shipyard exposure as well as ship board exposure? A Right. Q Can you tell us what data you're familiar with regarding the ship board exposure? MR. CIFALDI: Let me note one objection for the record. I may be mistaken but I thought he was talking about shipyard exposure in the construction of ships. Q Did you ever mention data on ship board exposure, Doctor? A There are data available on ship board exposure as well as shipyard exposure. Most of the data in the world literature concern trades that operation both shipyard and ship board. These are two different exposure categories. Ship board exposure tends to be, you know, in a poorly Brody & Geiser (908) 283-1060 or (212) 732-0644 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 LANGER Cross 106 ventilated environment in which fugitive dust plays a prominent role where as shipyard is, there's a greater capacity for dust to dissipate, disperse. MR. CAMPBELL: Angelo, I just want to let you know on the record that since Dr. Dement you said you were going to make a claim against Marine based on the use of asbestos-containing products on piping, et cetera, it may be used in conjunction with the boilers and that Dr. Dement may address those issues. Dr. Langer may be called upon at trial to address issues relating to nonasbestos insulation materials that would have been available and appropriate in domestic boiler applications. MR. CIFALDI: I think I inquired into that. MR. CAMPBELL: Well, you required specifically about cements and I just want - he may address items broader than cements. MR. CIFALDI: Okay. MR. CAMPBELL: I just want to let you know. MR. CIFALDI: Sure. MR. CAMPBELL: That's it I'm done. No Brody & Geiser (908) 283-1060 or (212) 732-0644 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 LANGER Redirect 107 question pending. REDIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. CIFALDI: Q Can you tell the difference between asbestos pipe covering and asbestos -- and fiberglass pipe covering? MR. CAMPBELL: Who's you, him? MR. CIFALDI: Him. A Yes. Q How? A The two familiar glasses used for pipe covering is a resinous glass that has a yellow resin on it so that one can actually look at it and speculate that it is glass and using a pair of mechanical forceps, it actually crunches rather than compresses so the color is one of the major indices of identification on a morphological kind of basis. Also, there are pink fibers, the pink fibers tend to be embedded insulation rather than pipe covering but the majority of pipe covers that I've seen with just glass are well -- Q What other substitutes would be available for asbestos pipe covering? MR. CAMPBELL: Asbestos pipe covering? MR. CIFALDI: Yes. Q That you offer an opinion on? Brody & Geiser (908) 283-1060 or (212) 732-0644 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 LANGER - Redirect 108 A I've seen low temperature pipe covering which consists of glass but glass could also service to much higher temperatures. There are glasses that are mentioned in some of these brochures that are - reach service temperatures of about 600 Fahrenheit. Q Any othersubstitutes forasbestos that you can think of? A Cellulose is used onpipes and lowtemperature pipes. Q Would they be used on boiler piping? A On boilers. Q Yes. A Cellulose? Q Yes. A Probably not. Q Probably not. Might burn, right? A Well, if it gets wet and if it gets warm, then it tends to -- that cellulosic material tends to harbor various kinds of biological agents and the gross fungus and so on. Q Any other substitutes? A Generically, I think the man-made variety, rust fibers, the fiberglasses. Q And you could tell the difference if you're looking at an asbestos pipe covering and a 3rodv & Geiser (90S) 283-1060 or (212) 732-0644 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 LANGER - Redirect 109 glass pipe covering, correct? A I can, yes. Q And certainly a plumber if he's experienced in the trade could also, right? A I would think so, yes. MR. CIFALDI: That's all I have. (The deposition concluded at 1:00 p.m.) Brody & Geiser (908) 283-1060 or (212) 732-0644 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 CERTIFICATE 110 I, JENNIFER REALMUTO a Notary Public and Certified Shorthand Reporter, do hereby state that prior to the commencement of the examination ALFRED M. LANGER, Ph.D. was duly sworn by me to testify to the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth. I do further state that the foregoing is a true and accurate transcript of the testimony as taken stenographically by and before me at the time, place and on the date hereinbefore set forth. I do further state that I am neither a relative nor employee nor attorney nor counsel of any of the parties to this action, and that I am neither a relative nor employee of such attorney or counsel and that I am not financially interested in this action. JENNIFER REALMUTO, CSR Certificate No. XI01916 Brody & Geiser (908) 283-1060 or (212) 732-0644