Document npLo62O9N1kkxZ9QNEbRmLvaR

IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT SOUTHERN DISTRICT 07 VEST VIRGINIA CHARLESTON, VEST VIROINIA JAMES M. ADKINS, Administrator ) of the Estate of Ralph B. Adkins, ) Deceased, at al, ) ) Plaintiffs, ) ) vs. ) No. 81-2096 ) MONSANTO COMPANY, a Delavara ) Corporation, ) ) Defendant. ) Deposition of JAMES P. MIEURE taken on behalf of the plaintiffs. Reporter: M. Joy Springer J a m e s M a y R ep o r t in g S e r v ic e CERTIFIED SHORTHAND REPO RTERS n.R. 2 - B O X 6S ED W A R O SV ILLE . ILL IN O IS 62025 *t 1 IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT SOUTHERN DISTRICT OP WEST VIRGINIA 2 ' *h CHARLESTON, WEST VIRGINIA 9 3 4 JAMES M. ADKINS,* Administrator ) of the Estate of Ralph E. Adkins, ) 5 Deceased, et al, 6 Plaintiffs, ) ) ) 7 vs. 8 MONSANTO COMPANY, a Delaware Corporation, ) ) No. 81-2098 ) ) ) 9) Defendant. ) 10 11 12 APPEARANCES: 13 Messrs. Calwell, McCormick & Peyton, by W. Stuart Calwell, Jr., Esq., For the Plaintiffs; 14 Messrs. Bowles, McDavid, Graff & Love, 15 by P. Michael Pleska, Esq., For the Defendant, and John Woods, Esq,, 16 17 18 IT IS STIPULATED AND AGREED by and between 19 counsel for the plaintiffs and counsel for the defendant 20 that the deposition of JAMES P. MIEURE may be taken pursuant 21 to Rule 26(a) of the Federal Rules of Civil Procedure, on 22 behalf of the plaintiffs, on July 1^, 1983 at the Radisson 23 Hotel, Room 215, 9th Street and Convention Plaza, St. Louis, 24 Missouri, before M. JOY SPRINGER, a Notary Public within 25 and for the County of Madison, State of Illinois; that the JA M ES MAY R EP O R T IN G S E R V IC E tr I .1 *i . ;- 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 issuance of notice and dedimus is waived, and that this deposition may be taken with the same force and effect as if all Federal rules and statutory requirements had been complied with.. IT IS FURTHER STIPULATED AND AGREED'that any and all objections to all or any part of this deposition except objections as to form of the questions asked or answers given, are hereby reserved and may be raised on the trial of this cause; and that the signature of the deponent is not waived. JAMES P. MIEURE > produced, sworn and examined on behalf of the plaintiffs, deposes and says as follows: EXAMINATION BY MR. CALWELL: (Whereupon the reported marked Plaintiff's Deposition Exhibit j?338 (Monsanto's I.D, #2 3 2 5 ^2 ), consisting of one page; Plaintiff's Deposition Exhibit #339 (Monsanto's I.D. #232553)* consisting of one page; Plaintiff's JA M ES MAY R EPO R TIN G S E R V IC E .\ i 4 4 1 y 2 > 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 l 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Deposition Exhibit #3,40 (Monsanto's I.D, # 2 3 3 6 1 0 through 2 3 3 6 1 2 , inclusive), consisting of three pages; Plaintifffs Deposition Exhibit #3^1 (Monsanto's I.D. #232571 through 232571*, inclusive), consisting of four pages. $ Would you state your name, please? A. James P. Mieure, M-I-e-u-r-e. Q And what is your address, Dr. Meiure? A. 1^08 Rustic View, Ballwin, Missouri. Q You've got a Fh.D., is that right? A. That's correct. Q In chemistry? A. Yes. Q, Doctor, I'm going to ask you briefly about your education. You went to Kenyon College in 1963 with a^ degree in chemistry? A. That's correct. a Purdue University in ' 6 6 with a master '3 ? A. Yes. Q And Texas A & M In, 1968, Ph.D.? A. Right. 4 Now, upon getting your Ph.D. you went right to work for Monsanto, is that right? A. Yes, I did, Q And Monsanto is the only company you have JA M ES MAY R E P O R T IN G S E R V IC E { 3 worked for since getting your Ph.D., right? A. Yes. Q What was your first position with Monsanto? A. I was Senior Research Chemist. Q And where were you assigned to work? A. In St. Louis. Were you at thecorporateheadquarters or at one of the plants? A No. This was at the Queeny Plant. Q That would have been in 1968? A. That's correct. 4 Now, while you were at the Queeny Plant did you do any work with chlorinated phenols? A. Yes. Q Was that in connection with pentachlorophenol ? A. Yes, it was Q Also chlorophenol crude? A. I don't believe so during that time. Q And what were you doing with pentachloro phenol in 1 9 6 8 ? A Nothing. Q After 1968 did you perform some tests on pentachlorophenol? A Yes. Q You knowwhen that was? JA M ES MAY R E P O R T IN G S E R V IC E ( 4  1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 u 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A. Probably started In r69 or *70. Q And was that at the Queeny Plant? A. Yes. Q Was that part of some department, was there a chlorophenol department or something you were assigned to at the Queeny Plant? A. No, I was not assigned to a chlorophenol department. Q Was this work being performed for another manufacturing facility of Monsanto^? A. I was given a project to work on. I'm not sure where the project originated. Q What was the project. A The project was to develop a method for determining the dioxin content of pentachlorophenol. Q * In 1969? A Approximately, Q Now, did you do any work along those lines with trichlorophenol? A Two or three years later there was some attempt to extend the methodology, and we were asked to participate in the study by, I believe, the Food and Drug Administration was sponsoring that study. Q On trichlorophenol? A Yes. So we did participate in a round robin JA M ES MAY R E P O R T IN G S E R V IC E -* 1 1 study, 2 ` ' . Q, What is a round robin study? > 3 A. Several labs would analyze several samples 4 sent out by one laboratory. 5 Q On the trichlorophenol, you were determining 6 dioxin content also? 7 ' A. In that round robin study? 8 Q In the round robin study. 9 A. Yes. 10 Q You know what other laboratories were 11 involved in that? 12 A. The FDA had a laboratory involved, the 13 USDA, Dow Chemical. I 've forgotten where there were others. 14 Q And, of course, Monsanto? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q You think that would have been In 1970, *71, 17 something like that? 13 A. Possibly even later than that. Might have 19 been '7 2 , '73. I fm not certain of the time frame.- 20 Q But at least the early *70's? 21 A. Yes. ' 22 Q Maybe as late as '7*J and as early as *72, 23 something like that? * 24 / 25 A. That's a reasonable range to apply to it. Q Now, do you know why the trichlorophenol JA M ES MAY R EP O R T IN G S E R V IC E ti 6 1 tests were undertaken, why the request was made and the 2 purpose? 3 A. . Well, the tfSDA was interested in that 4 material. 5Q 6 material? Do you know why it was interested in that 7 A. Well, I think they had a general interest 8 in chlorophenols, and the dioxin content of chlorophenols 9 at that time was part of the general interest. 10 Q Now, let me ask you about orthochlorophenol. 11 Did you do any of this kind of. work with orthochlorophenol 12 during, this time period? 13 A. 14 period. I don't recall doing it during that time 15 Did you do it at a later time? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q, And when was that? 13 A A group that I was involved with analyzed 19 orthochlorophenol crude at some point in the mid-'7 0 's and 20 then again in f7 8 or *7 9 . 21 d Okay. Now, in the middle '70's, which would 22 be for a fair range of, say, late '7 ^ to early *7 7 , some 23 thing like that, would that be a fair time period, you 24 think? 25 A Late r7*lto early !77. JA M ES MAY R E P O R T IN G S E R V IC E [ 7 1 Q For the orthochlorophenol program? 2 A. Approximately. 3 .Q And were you likewise trying to develop a 4 methodology to identify dioxins in the orthochlorophenol 5 crude at that time? 6 A Yes. 7 Q And do you know why that particular project 8 was undertaken? 9 A It was a generalprocess study Juatto 10 assure ourselves we didn't have dioxin present in the process 11 at that time. 12 Q And what means did you use to test the 13 orthochlorophenol for the presence of dioxins? 14 A We used an extraction and g.c. mass 15 spectrometry method. 16 Cl You know where theorthochlorophenol crude 17 came from that you were testing? 18 A No. 19 Q, How long did the period of testing occur? 20 Was it a one-shot situation or was there a series of samples 21 that extended over a period of time? 22 A I don't recall. 23 Q Did you find the presence of dioxin in the 24 orthochlorophenol crude? 25 A No. JA M ES MAY REPO RTIN G S E R V IC E t Q Do you remember what detection level you 2 were able to get down to? 3 A. No, I 'm afraid X don't. 4 0, But you do recall you did not find any? 5 A. That1s right. 6 Q, Let me ask- you that same question about the 7 trichlorophenol tests. Did you locate or identify dioxin 8 in the trichlorophenol? 9 A. The trichlorophenol samples we were analyzing; 10 in the round robin study, dioxin had been added to some of 11 those as part of the experiment. 12 Q Did you test any of the trichlorophenols 13 from Monsanto at that period of time? 14 A. These samples were sent out by the Pood 15 and Drug Administration and we didn't know where they came 16 from. 17 Q Aside from those samples, did you test any 18 other trichlorophenol that might have been Monsanto's? 19 A. Not to my recollection. 20 Q How, back to the pentachlorophenol. Did 21 you detect any dioxin content in the pentachlorophenol? 22 A At this point we have to define what we 23 mean by dioxin. 24 Q Okay. How do you define dioxin in connec 25 tion with the pentachlorophenol study? JA M ES MAY R EP O R TIN G S E R V IC E t 9 $ \ i* 2 / 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 n 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 .A Well, there are, what 13 It,*seventy-five isomers of chlorinated dioxins. Q And were you testing for all of them in pentachlorophenol? A As many as we could. Q So If I understand what you're saying, the undertaking with reference to pentachlorophenol was as broad gauged as possible with reference to the family of substances generally referred to as dioxins, is thait correct? A That1s right. Cl Kow many of those substances were you able to identify? A I don't recall the exact number. I would estimate ten or twelve. Q, Now, do you recall which of the isomers you did identify or one or two of them? A Octylchloro, two isomers of heptachloro, three isomers of hexachloro. Beyond that I don't recall. (I Did you identify any.2,3,7, 8 TCDD? A No. Q Now, with reference to the pentachlorophenol testing that you did, in preparation for that did you con sult the Monsanto research libraries and look to see if there were any previous tests done by the company along those lines? JA M ES MAY R EP O R T IN G S E R V IC E i 10 9 i A i 2 3 4 5 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 l 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A. Yes, I'm sure we did a literature survey. Q Is that common practice when you'1re - going t o u n d e r t a k e a project such as these chlorophenol projects we have Just been talking about? A. Yes, It Is. a Do you rely on the Monsanto libraries pretty much extensively for that? A. That's certainly where we would start. If we were aware of a reference that was not available i n o u r library, we would have our library obtain that r e f e r e n c e ' for u s . Now, part of the reason for identifying t h e dioxin content, let13 say, of pentachlorophenol was con- nected to safety and handling of products, that kind of thing? A. Yes. 0. In connection with your literature search, did you look at anything on the toxicology relating to the dioxins, its effect, perhaps, on animals or humans? A. No. Q So as far as you can recall, you didn't look at anything like that? A No. My responsibilities on the project was an analytical chemist. I understand what your responsibilities were > JA M ES MAY R E P O R T IN G S E R V IC E t i: 1 You s a i d you did a literature search. Was it literature 2 > s p e c i f i c a l l y - Just for analytical procedures or did it 3 i n c l u d e a n y toxicology or any studies identifying what 4 effect dioxin may have had on animals or humans? 5 A. Many of the studies I would have looked at would have been toxicological studies which would have had 7 an analytical section in them. 8 Q Now, were you working with the section in 9 toxicology at Monsanto in *69 when you were looking at the 10 pentachlorophenol? 11 A. No. 12 Q, As far as you know, there was no involvement 13 of the toxicology section, then, in thi3 undertaking? 14 A. I am not sure what you mean by a toxicology 15 section. 16 Q Vie11, I talked to Dr. Levinskas this morning 17 and he said since 1971 he has been, oh, the head, I think 18 he called it, of the toxicology section, and he said 19 although the names have changed over the years here and 20 there that essentially the job is the same. He said really 21 what it is is a toxicology department that services the 22 entire company. My question to you is whether or not when 23 you were undertaking your analytical inquiry into the 24 presence of dioxins in pentachlorophenol you had any con 25 nection with or coordinated with a toxicology department in JA M ES MAY R EP O R T IN G S E R V IC E ( i; <* / - 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Monsanto? There would have been meetings which we might.have attended together. Q You create like a lab report or some such document when you do these experiments, right? A. Yes. Q And you created those records, I guess, in your pentachlorophenol inquiry? A. Yes -,/f Q Do you know what happens to them after they are created, those records? A. We have an Information Center and we.have a Records Center within the Information Center, and those records would normally be made a part of that Record Center. Cl If you wanted to go retrieve those records for some reason, how would you do that? Is there some person you'd go to? A. I 'm sure there is. I don't know who that person is. Q - You've never had occasion to go to the Records Center and look up past experiments or lab results or that sort of thing? A. I 've done It many years ago. a But not in recent time? A. No. JA M ES MAY R EP O R T IN G S E R V IC E tt 13 d do it? Whan you did it many years ago, how did you A. I want to a person in the library and asked them what the procedure was. They told me who to see, who to make my request to, and I subsequently did that. Q So If I ask the librarian, that would be a good place to start? A. They could certainly tell you how to access the Records Center. q Now, there is a library in the Medloal Department, is there not? A. I believe there is. q Do you use that library? A. Not routinely. q Is there a library that you use with some degree of regularity in connection with your work? A. Yes. q And which library is that? A. It's located in the R Building. It1a commonly called the Research Library. q The library in the Medical Department, is that Just the Medical Library, is that what it's called? A. I'm not sure of the official title. That's as good a title as any. q The library you work in in the R Building JA M ES MAY R EP O R TIN G S E R V IC E ( 11 is commonly referred to as the Research Library? A That's correct. Q And that's where I would go to find out about the Records Center, right? A Yes. Q You know if it's Monsanto's policy to main tain and preserve lab tests such as the ones you performed on pentachlorophenol? A Monsanto hasspecificguidelines onrecord retention. Q Do you know what those guidelines are with reference to test results such as those that you created in the pentachlorophenol, trichlorophenol and orthochlorophenol inquiries? A No, I don't. Q Have there been anyother timesthat you have analyzed chlorophenols, penta-, ortho-, trichlorophenols for dioxins other than the times that you have Just testi fied about? A We have discussed a fair range of times. q The first one started in 1969? A Okay. Q That was with the penta inquiry. Then we moved into what we agreedon as a fair range for theearly 7 0 's, like, ' 7 2 to '7 ^ time period or thereabouts, and JA M ES MAY R E P O R T IN G S E R V IC E t 1 that was the trichlorophenol7 2 / ... Trichlorophenol was analyzedduring that 3 time, but whfct you Just said Implied that we had an exten 4 sive effort under way during that time. 5 Q I didn't mean to. Was It not an extensive effort? 7 A It was not. 8 Q So what you're saying is for some short 9 period of time within the time period of * 7 2 to '7 ^7 . 10 A. That' 8 correct. 11 Q And then the orthochlorophenol time period, 12 and correct me* was this also just a short time period.when 13 you tested the orthochlorophenol in what we called late 14 '7^ to early *77 time period, was there Just a short period 15 of time within that time period that you looked at ortho l chlorophenol crude? 17 A I believe so. 18 Q Now, aside from this time period, were 19 there other times when you tested one or all of these 20 phenollo compounds for dioxin? 21 A. Yes 22 U And when were thosetimes? 23 A Periodically samples would be brought to us 24 for routine analysis during most of that time frame. 25 Q So aside from these, can we oall them JA M ES MAY R EP O R T IN G S E R V IC E 16 1f A ^ -r^ * 1 special projects related specifically to pentachlorophenol, 2 ^ I ^ U h l o ^ f c e n o l and orthochlorophenol, that throughout that 3 ''.' time perlod there were some routine tests that were made on * ' *i;.` 1. Vsr- --1 4 if * not a regular a recurrent basis of various samples for 5 dioxin, is that accurate? 6 A. X would quibble with the word "routine/ 1 7 The analyses were never routine, but we did this on a 8 periodic basis. 9 Q On a recurring basis? 10 A. Recurring basis. ;! 11 Q Okay. Now, would you be testing specific. 12 products for dioxin content, like, 2,4, 5 T, for example?' 13 A. I don't recall testing 2,4,5 T. U Q Was there any specific Monsanto product 15 that you can recall testing on this recurrent basis for 16 dioxin? 17 A. Pentachlorophenol. 18 a So aside from the special pentachlorophenol 19 project in '6 9 , there was also a recurrent kind of testing 20 over the years of pentachlorophenol? 21 A. Yes. 22 a Now, does that time extent through to today? 23 A. No. My involvement does not. 24 a When did you*,involvement in this recurrent 25 situation end? JA M ES MAY R EP O R TIN G S E R V IC E tt 11 A. About 1980. Q Was that because youchanged Jobs? A. Yes, Q During this time period of '69 through '80 could you Just briefly tell me what your Job titles were? Did you change Jobs during that period of time? A I believe we covered some of that earlier and got up probably through Group Leader. Did we get to Group Leader? I was Group Leader of an analytical group. I was made that in approximately 1 9 7 5 . Q Still in the 3 ame field in essentially the same Job? It's Just more responsibility and that kind of thing, right? A Yes. And in 1979, I believe, I was given the title of Manager in the Environmental Sciences Section. Q, Is that still the same kind of work? A Basically the same kind of work.. Q And then in 1980 you became what? A Manager, Product Acceptability. Q During your course work did you become familiar with this group of substances called dioxins when you were in college? A No. Q, When did you first get an inkling when these things existed? JA M ES MAY R EP O R TIN G S E R V IC E A. i- Monsanto. 1 When the project was assigned to me at 4 That would have been in *69? A. Approximately, Q la that the first time you even knew these things were around? A. Yes. Q If you had never heard of dioxins before on this 1 9 6 9 project, you had to undertake some degree of study on the matter to get yourself oriented and familiarized with the subject, is that right? A. Yes. Qk In doing that, aside from looking at the literature, did you also take a look at what Monsanto had then by the way of information about TGDD or the dioxins and methods for analyzing for them? A. I don't recall seeing any Monsanto methods. Q Have you been able todetermine that there has been some considerable amount of- research that Monsanto has done, say, in 1972, for example, in analyzing for TCDD and those kinds of things, dioxins? A. As I previouslymentioned,Monsanto was actively involved in measuring dioxins during significant time frame that we identified earlier. All right. Qoing on with the continuing JA M ES MAY R EP O R T IN G S E R V IC E t 1 f1 1 4 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 testing in Monsanto, apparently,, in these periods of time where you have the special projects related to pent a-, tri-, and orthochlorophenols, you were not analyzing specifically for 2,3,7, 8 TCDD, is that right? A. We were analyzing for as many dioxins as we could, as the analytical methodology would permit. Q On those projects did you ever identify any 2,3,7,8 TCDD? A. Part of the validation of an experiment required us to add TCDD to 2,3,7, 8 TCDD to samples. ^ I'm not interested in that. What I fm Interested in Is a non-spiked sample. Did you identify any 2,3,7,3 TCDD In any product that came from Monsanto that wa3 not 3 piked on purpose with a TCDD? Did you ever Identify ' 2,3,7, 8 TCDD in any of those samples? A. Not to my recollection. Q Did anybody working for you? A. Mot to my recollection. Q Mow, when you say, "not to my recollection," does that mean you just don't remember or that it never occurred? A. I can't be certain. I think I would recall it if it occurred. Q, The-fact that you don't recall It, then, leads you to believe that you never Identified any 2,3,7, 8 JA M ES MAV R E P O R T IN G S E R V IC E ll 2  .4 V/ 1 1 2 3 4 5 7 8 9 IQ 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 TCDD in those samples we have been talking about? time. A; Well, I can't be completely certain at this Q Let me ask you this, Monsanto in a number of documents refers to TCDD. You know what that means in those Monsanto documents? A. Well, there are twenty-two isomers of TCDD. a X understand that. A. It would be speculation on my part to try to stipulate what someone else meant when they used that acronym. Q Okay. You have used that acronym, right? A. I'm 3 ure X have. Q Let me show you Exhibit 339 (Monsanto's I.D. #232553), which is a letter, apparently, written by you to H. J. H o m e r and W. G. Krummrich, dated December 26th 197**, and ask you to take a look at that. In the first paragraph of Document 339 reference is made to TCDD. How is It used in that paragraph? A. In the same way that I used It in the definition of the subject. Cl So you were talking about all of the Isomers or any one of the isomers of the tetra-level dioxin, is that what you were talking about? A. No. I was talking about the 2,3,7,8 . JAM ES MAY REPO RTIN G SE R V IC E { 2;  .i --* i Q Is that what that document,*b about, testing 2 for 2,3,7,8'TCDD? J 3 A. Apparently so. 4 f t Do you remember what the occasion of those 5 tests were? j 6 A. Mo, I don't. 7 a But that*a something you were, apparently, 8 doing in 1971*, right? 9 A. Yes. 10 f t Would It have been in connection with your 11 orthochlorophenol project? 12 A. I don't know. 13 f t If you needed to find out what that was - ' 14 about, where would you go to? 15 A. To the Record Center. 16 f t And that*s the place in the library, the 17 Research Library we have been talking about earlier, right? 18 A. Yes. 19 f t What would you know .to ask for? Would you 20 go by date, or how is it you would identify what you're 21 looking for? 22 A. I would ask for the notebook, laboratory 23 notebook. 24 f t Kow would you know which laboratory notebook 25 to look for? JA M ES MAY R E P O R T IN G S E R V IC E ( 2 V& l Ht ' \J 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A. By identification number. % Document 339? Is there an identification number In that A. Yes, Q Which number is that? A. The number In the first line. Q V/ould you read that? A. OR 256315. Q- If I communicated that number to the library person at the Record Center, they could locate that lab notebook , Is that right? A. I presume so. G Is that the only way to access those lab notebooks is to know the number? A. I think they could probably be accessed by time frame also, but youfd have to know the individual. Whose book it was? A. (Nods head affirmatively.) Like, If I used your name, if I said, I want all of Dr. Mieure's lab books for '7^, that would allow them to probably identify them Just with that information, Isn't that right? A. Probably, . Q Okay. Let me hand you what's been marked Plaintiff's Exhibit 338 (Monsanto's I.D. #2325*12), which, JA M ES MAY R EP O R TIN G S E R V IC E t 23 for the record, is a letter apparently signed by you and addressed to R. E. Keller, but that nay be Kelly, I fm not sure, dated August 11th, 1972, on Monsanto letterhead? A- Okay. Q In the second paragraph of Document 338 reference Is made to extensive files. Would you read that, I don't have a copy before me, A- "Our research in the area of analyzing for TCDD arid related chloro dioxins in chlorophenol products is fairly extensive." Q Now, do you know what records or files or what you're referring to there In that paragraph? r- I'd be speculating at this time. Do you want me to speculate? f. Yeah. I want to know what you think that's about. A. I think it would be what's in the library plus the methods that we developed. Q If you wanted to go .find those records you're referring to, how would you go Identify then? A. That would be very difficult to do at this time. Well, were they all in one place there -- what's the date of that document? A. August the 11th, 1972. JA M ES MAY R E P O R T IN G S E R V IC E t i 9' s < I 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q Were they all together in 1972? I mean, how did you know that? T mean, it sounds incredible you co m e in h e r e and 3ay you don't know what you're talking about and you wrote the letter and you're talking about a big field of studying dioxin for ten years and you don't know what you're talking about. Surely you can identify what files and records that Monsanto has. You were intimately connected with it, weren't you? A. I was at that tine. 0 .Tell me what you know about it? A. I really don't know what the files were that I was referring to. Did you talk to anybody in preparation for the deposition today? A. Y e s . Di Anybody tell you to say you don't know about specific questions? A. No. Q Did you get any instructions at all on how to answer questions? A. Yes. ^ What was that? A. Tell the truth. Cj, If you wanted to go back behind that document, would you go to the same library and Research Center JAM ES MAY REPO RTIN G S E R V IC E 1 2 1 and try to reconstruct it? 2 A Yes. 3 4 Are there some areas that you would try to 4 ask for that might get you into those records, like, lab 5 books would be one, I assume? 6 A Lab books would be one. 7 4 And what else? 8 A Reports. 9 <J What kind of reports? - 10 A Methods, methods that we developed. 11 Cl Would those reports and methods have a name 12 or how would you identify those? 13 A Well, they would be called analytical methods. 14 Q Would you say a report on an analytical 15 method for 2,3,7,8 TCDD, for example? ,16 A That would be one code word I think you'd 17 want to use for the search. 18 Q Now, aside from spe.cific reports related to 19 specific substances and the reports you have identified as 20 lab books, would there be some other area you would ask for? 21 A Not at this time. 22 Q What do you mean, not at this time? 23 A As you pointed out earlier, we had files 24 collected during that time. I doubt if those files are 25 collected in any one place now. JA M ES MAY R EP O R T IN G S E R V IC E t 2 t9 I 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 ' 25 d Did those flies have a name? A. Not that I recall. d Do you know where they came from and were they there when you got to the project or did you create them? A. I created most of them. Q Was It part of your Job to pull together - what Monsanto had pertaining to the subject matter of TCDD? A. Yes. Cl And did you write up some kind of report or study based on all of those files and the conclusions you reached, I guess, after your testing procedures there? A. I don't recall writing a report of the type you Just mentioned. a Well, did you write anything up? You Just did this work -- A. X wrote reports on the work that I did. a And you'd get that under your name, right? A. Yes. . Q Now, did you ever test any substance from the Nltro Plant for 2,3,7, 8 TCDD? A. Not that I recall. Cl Did you ever analyze any samples from the Nltro Plant to see If there were any technical limits of JAM ES MAY REPO RTIN G S E R V IC E (i 27 1 2,3,7, 8 TCDD? 2 A. Not that I recall. 3 ^ Do you know If anyone under your supervision 4 did? 5 A. Samples from the Nitro Plant? 6 d Yes. 7 A. What do you mean by samples7 8 A Well, any water, any samples of substances 9 from the Nitro Plant, whether it be product, dirt, earth, 10 water? 11 A. Yes. People under my management did analyze 12 some. 13 d And when did that happen? 14 A. I believe in the early ' 80 Ts. About 1980, 15 plus or minus a year. 16 d Do you know why you were doing that7 17 A. My recollection is part of a survey of the 18 environment around the plant, 19 Q You don't know why that survey Wes' under 20 taken? 21 A. No, 22 d Do you know what the results of those tests 23 were? 24 A. My recollection is that we did not find any 25 dioxin. JA M ES MAY R EPO R TIN G S E R V IC E ( t 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 l 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q Did you perform those tests on more than one occasion? A. I don't recall. Cl And if we wanted to find out -- I assume you made lab notebooks based on that, right? 'A. I assume so. Q, And the same routine would apply, you'd go tc the library and ask for the lab report? A. Yes. Q Those lab books under the people that do the actual hands-on testing, or would they also be reference! the supervisor? A. They would be the notebook for the person who did the hands-on work. Q So even though a fellow might be under you, If you didn!t actually do the work, there's no way I can find that particular lab book unless I had the fellow's name who actually did it? A. You need his name. Cl Or the lab book number? A. Yes. Cl Is your department or whatever it is you do, is that a corporate-wide service that you supplied? A. No. Cl Who do you take care of? JA M ES MAY REPO RTIN G S E R V IC E 1 29 A. I'm responsible for the products covering the plasticizers and rubber chemicals products areas. Q, That*s now, right? A. Yes. Q Now, in earlier times you had obviously something to do with the herbicides, I suppose? A. N o . d Chlorophenols, then? A. Yes, That was in connection with the Krummrich Plant? A. The chlorophenols are manufactured at the Krummrich Plant. CL I think what I'm trying to ask you is the department that you're assigned to or the organizational unit that you worked in -- I realize you're not the head of it -- does It provide the analytical services for all the companies that make up Monsanto? A. N o . Q All right. What's the organizational unit of the one that you're in, what's its name? A. I'm In wha.t' 3 called Environmental Opera tions. Q Now, Environmental Operations services what Monsanto organizations? JA M ES MAY R E P O R T IN G S E R V IC E t 30 ** 1\ I t 2 3 4 5 7 '8 9 IO 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 ^ 25 A. Monsanto Polymer Products, and included in the polymer products are the two products I Just mentioned, the plaetlolsers and rubber chemicals. Q And doesn't take care of anything else? A. That's correct. Q, Now, before you got the Job you have now what group were you with? A. Environmental Sciences section. d Okay. And you were in analytical chemistry with that section, and that would have been in *7 9 ? A. Y e s. Q All right. And what does that take care of? A. Monsanto Industrial Chemicals. Q, MIC, then, right? A. Yes. Q And prior to that time what were you a part of? * A. I was with MIC going as far back as MIC went. MIC was created in a reorganization of the company In *73 *7#. Prior to that I was with the Organic Chemicals Division. Q, And so whatever analytical services were performed would be confined to those areas that you have Just mentioned, whatever company you were servicing or what- ever part of the company you were taking care of? In other JA M ES MAY R E P O R T IN G S E R V IC E c 3: words, there is no general analytical chemical service company that takes care of everybody in the company? A There is a Corporate Analytical Department. Q And that would have, like,company-wide responsibility, then? A Yes. Q, Now, does, it actually do work or is it like an administrative kind of position? A No. They do work. Q Now, who*s in that, if you know? Who's the head of it? Bill Kemer. Q And that's here in St. Louis? A Yes. ft to that? Does your department have some relationship A No. Other than the overall Monsanto realm. Qi In other words, you don't answer to them or you're n o t i n a sense, under them? . A There are no reporting relationships. Q Do you know what that organization's responsibility is? A To provide analytical support as needed for any interest within the company. Q So on a given project you could expect JA M ES MAY R EP O R T IN G S E R V IC E I 1 assistance from that outfit, right? 2 jL If I requested it. 3 Q And I realize the names may have changed, 4 but has hat general operation been in existence since you 5 have been with the company? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q Now, do you know who it reports to? 8 A. It reports through the Corporate Research 9 and Development staff. That's as precise as I can bo. 10 Q And do you know who the head of tho'vCorporate 11 Research and Development is? 12 A. HowardSniderman. 13 Q How, during the special projects you talked 14 about earlier regarding pentachlorophenol, orthochlorophenol 15 and trichlorophenol, did you have any assistance from this 16 corporate level research analytical chemical division? 17 A. We had some help fromthem. 18 Q Do you know who was In charge of that at 19 that time? 20 A. Who was in charge of what? 21 4 That corporate analytical chemical operation 22 you Just described. 23 A. The section? 24 Q Yeah. 25 A. Bill Kemer. JA M ES MAY REPO RTIN G S E R V IC E t 3: 1 q So they came in to provide you assistance 2 on those three special projects or associated with you in 3 that undertaking? 4 A. We requested their service occasionally. 5 Q, Now, did you request service occasionally 6 on the recurrent times that you tested for TCDD over the 7 period of time we talked about earlier? 8 A. Not that I recall. 9 q But you do specifically recall requesting 10 their assistance on these three special projects we talked 11 about? 12 A. No, not on the three of them. 13 q How about the pentachlorophenol? 14 A. I don't recall which of the three we 15 requested their help on. I Just recall requesting their 16 help occasionally. 17 q In connection with one or more of those 18 three projects? 19 A. One or more. 20 q But you don't recall ever requesting their 21 help on the recurrent testing for 2,3,7,8? 22 A. No, I don't. 23 q Do they keep records like your operation 24 keeps records? 25 A. Yes, they do. JA M ES MAY R EPO R TIN G S E R V IC E t 3*1 *i > ft. 1 2 3 4 5 7 8 9 io 11 12 13 14 15 l 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q And would they likewise be at the -- what d i d y o u c a l l it? A. Record Center. Q -- Record Center? A. Yes. Q And you would.access them the same way that you would any other lab record, Is that right? A. Yes. Q Okay. Now, have you in recent times ever requested their assistance on anything in terras of testing for dioxins? A. No. Q The last time you would have had any occasion to be involved in that would have been 1980, looking for dioxins? A. Yes . Q In your present job you have no .occasion to do that, is that right? A. That's right. Q Look at 339. In the first paragraph in the first sentence you make reference to seven chlorophenol fractions, OR 256315 Cl to 7) submitted on or about August 15th have now been analyzed for TCDD using spectroscoj:y method 7 0 - 2 0 . What is spectroscopy method 70-20? A That's one of the methods we developed while JA M ES MAY R EP O R T IN G S E R V IC E 1 35 1 working with dioxins. I don't recall which one it is. 2 But that was a Monsanto methodology, perhaps, 3 ; in connection with the pentachlorophenol or trichlorophenol? 4 A. Most likely the pentachlorophenol. 5 ft Now, in the third paragraph down you 6 observed, "We have ordered for delivery the first week of 7 November a QC/MS." What is QC/MS? 8 A. That'3 an acronym for gas chromatographic 9 mass spectrometer system. tr.:' 10 ft At least until November, 1972*, Monsanto did,, 11 not have that system? 12 A We did not have that particular system.. 13 ft Did you have one similar? 14 A Yes. is ft Was this one more sensitive orcapable at a 16 greater capacity than the one you had? 17 A My recollection is that it had a greater 18 sensitivity than the instrument that we had. 19 ft How long has the QC/MS technology been 20 available as of September 6th, 157^? How old a science is 21 that? How long has the industry had the ability to use 22 GC/MS? A GC/MS has been an evolving science since, oh, around 1966. The first instruments were fairly crude. They have developed in sophistication since that time. JA M ES MAY R EP O R TIN G S E R V IC E I 36 't i K V .A 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 t 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 '_ ' 23 24 25 [ ' (i And do you know when Monsanto first got into \ the GC/MS businass, when they first had that capability, regardless? A. Regardless of what? Q No matter how crude it would have been? A. We had one of the early instruments, I would say, about 1967 time frame. a Now, do you know who Raymond Suskind is? A. Yes. Cl How did you come to know who he is? A.. I have heard his name mentioned. a In connection with your work? A. Not with my work, no. a In connection with your place of employment? A. Yes. Q You aware of any studies he's conducted on the Nitro population? A. I'm aware he has conducted the studies. I've not read the studies. Did you supply any information in connection with that undertaking? - A. I did not, no. a . Have you ever supplied any information rela- tive to dioxins and Monsanto's test for dioxin to Dr. * Suskind? JA M ES MAY R E P O R T IN G S E R V I C E t 37 \$ 1 A. No. 2 Q Hasanybody under your control donethat? 3 A. Not to my knowledge. 4 Q, So as far as you know, yourdepartment has 5 never, and I mean the department you were in, say, in '7 9 , 6 78 -- I realize you1re out of the business now -- but as 7 far as you know, you were never required to collect any 8 Information for transmittal to Dr. Suskind? 9 A. To the best of my knowledge, we never did 10 work for the specific purpose of transmitting it to Dr. n Suskind. 12 Q During that time .period T78, *79 did you 13 perform any work for DMEH in terms of collecting information 14 about dioxin or dioxin testing that you might have done in 15 the past or might have had done in the past? 16 A. I don't recall. 17 Q I want to hand you what's been marked 3^ 0 18 (Monsanto's I.D, #233610 through 233612, inclusive) and 19 3*11 (Monsanto's I.D. #232571 through. 232574, inclusive). 20 If you would, please, take a minute and look at those. 21 Doctor, you have had a chance to look at Exhibits 22 3*10 and 3^1. Exhibit 3^0 is a memo on Monsanto letterhead, 23 is it not? 24 A. Yes, it is. 25 Q And it looks as though it's prepared by JAM ES m ay REPO RTIN G SER V IC E t 38 1 Q. Edward Paget addressed to George Roush, Jr,, M,D., and 2 you're shown on Exhibit 3^0 as having received a copy of 3 that dooument. You see that? 4 A. Yes, 5 Q Is there any reason todoubt that you 6 received a copy of it? 7 A. No. 8 Q Do you remember.thedocument? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q Do you know why it is that you.were on that 11 distribution list to receive a copy of that document? 12 A. At that time my laboratory was laboratory 13 equipped to do dioxin analysis. 14 Q And were you preparing to do dioxin analysis 15 .or were you in the process of doing dioxin analysis at 16 about the time of that Document #3^0? 17 A. As I mentioned earlier, we diddioxin 18 analysis periodically during a wide time frame. 19 Q Well, were you doing.it at that time, 20 June, whatever It was there? 21 A. June 5th, 1979. 22 4 Okay. And look at 3^1 which Is captioned, 23 "A Position Paper for Consideration by M. C. Throdahl," 24 dated June 26th, 1979, and, apparently, again, written by 25 0. Edward Paget. You were shown on the list as having JA M ES MAY R E P O R T IN G S E R V IC E t 39 agreed to this paper, That*s what it says. You see that, * * * Vr .* , \ "agreed by#:w\.and your name appears in the column? A. Yes Q What's that mean? Was it submitted for your approval, or why were you on there as indicating your agreement? A. I believe that means there was conceptual agreement by the parties on the right that this waa a reason able position paper, Q, And do you know why it would have been given to you for agreement? A. I was an analytical consultant during that time. Q, And so you don't disagree with anything that appears in 3^1, do you? A I would not agree with your statement. Q What do you disagree with in there? A You want me to read it again with that thought in mind? 4 Whatever you want to do. Whatever is necessary to get an answer. A In response to your question, I believe your question 1b do I agree with everything in here. Q Yeah. A I don't agree with the implied likelihood. JA M ES MAY R EP O R T IN G S E R V IC E I 40 $ t 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 3 9 10 n 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 ft What page you on? A. Page two, first paragraph. There is a statement,*"of importance to Monsanto is the fact that it appears that they may be formed when any aromatic substance is chlorinated under industrial conditions." ft You disagree with that? A. Yea, I do. ft Did you disagree with it at the time that the document was created from your reading, or is that something you learned since then? A. I can't be certain what my frame of mind was at that time. ft What do you base your disagreement on? A. It's too broad and sweeping. Aeromatic chemicals covers a very broad range of materials, some of which might be susceptible to the kind of conversion that he describes here, that many of which would not be susceptib} e to that type of conversion. ft Aside from that broad statement about the aeromatic compounds, is there anything else in there that rubs you the wrong way? A. I didn't notice anything else that I had a serious quibble with. ft And I believe you already told me the reason you were on there is because you were in this JA M ES MAY R EPO R TIN G S E R V IC E ( kl % 1 t ....... 1 particular area of work at the time of this document? 2 A. Yeah. 3 Q Now, I want to go back and ask you some 4 questions about when you were involved in the actual testl 5 of this stuff. Like, you went to work there in *68 and 6 beginning of *69 you started taking a look at pentachloro7 phenol. Were you doing some hands-on testing at that time? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q What kind of precautions, if any, did you 10 take when you were handling the pentachlorophenol and whatn ever substances it is you were working with, what kind of 12 precautions did you take? 13 A. We handled our substances in what are called 14 laboratory hoods. 15 0, Can you describe that? 16 A. A laboratory hood is a forced-air device. 17 There is a blower which pulls air -- it 's almost like a 18 closet with sliding glass doors on the 'front and a source 19 of ventilation within. 20 Q Are you Inside this closet? 21 A. No. You're outside. The chemical is inside 22 the closet and any air circulation is from the outside 23 laboratory into the hood so that fumes which might be 24 released, for example, inside the hood would not get into 25 the laboratory. They would stay within the hood, they would 1 go in the ventilating system 2 Q And be ventilated to the outside or some 3 place? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q Now, how do you get in there to work7 You 6 have some kind of holes to 3tick your hands through? 7 A. No. As I mentioned, they have sliding 8 glass doors and you open the sliding glass doors. 9 Q, Did you wear any type of gloves or anything 10 like that? 11 A. We normally would wear a laboratory coat or 12 clothing that would be changed during the day, and we used 13 plastic gloves if we were handling a sample which would be 14 expected to be corrosive to the skin. Pentachlorophenol is 15 an industrial chemical and it?s a very corrosive material. 16 Q And did you have any other, aside from the 17 gloves and this special coat and laboratory hood, any other 18 protective devices on? 19 A. I don't recall any. 20 Q Would you ordinarily handlepentachlorophenol 21 under those rather stringent circumstances? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q And what are the reasons for that? 24 A. As I Just mentioned, it's an industrial 25 poison and it's a toxic and corrosive material. JA M ES MAY R EP O R T IN G S E R V IC E I *3 1 Q Now, when you were doing the work on this 2 trichlorophenol, did you know which samples of the trichloro`-| 3 ` phenol had teen spiked with 2,3,7,8? 4 A. No. 5 Q And that was part of the deal, X gttes-s1, that 6 you weren't to know which samples were spiked? 7 A. That's correct. 4 8 Q And why would that be? To test your' 9 methodology? 10 A. To test the methodology that's being used. 11 It prohibits any bias by the analyst. 12 Q, Did you likewise handle this triehXorophenol 13 which may or may not have contained dioxin in one of-these 14 closets also? 15 A. Ail chlorophenols, to the best of ^/knowl 1 edge , are hazardous materials and we always handle them 17 with a great deal of caution. 18 Q So t h a t means the trichlorophenol wti handled 19 in one of these hoods? 20 A. Vh huh (yes), 21 Ci Viththese special gloves? 22 A. Ye s . 23 C; And alab coat ofsome kind or clothing 24 of some kind? . 25 A. Yes JA M ES MAY R EP O R TIN G S E R V IC E 1 4 Now, were those precautions taken in part 2 .-because of the presence of dioxin? 3 . A. ' No. 4 Q So if you were Just handling the dioxin, 5 you wouldn't have to take any precautions like that, is 6 that right? 7 A . W e would take the same precautions when we 8 were handling dioxins as we would handling any other hazard9 ous material. 10 Q So you don't handle dioxin outside of one 11 of these closets, do you? 12 A. No. Except for the very dilute samples we 13 would put in our instruments. Obviously, it would be 14 impractical to put an instrument half the size of this 15 room into one of these hoods. The only time we took samples 16 out of the hoods was when they were in very dilute form and 17 there was very little dioxin present. 18 Q Now, when you were collecting your files on 19 this Monsanto dioxin analysis that we talked about earlier, 20 ,did you look at any papers or letters written by Dr. Kelly, 21 that you recall7 22 A. Not that I recall. 23 Q Now, when you were working with the ortho- chlorophenol, did you likewise take the same precautions,' the hood and clothing and all that? JA M ES MAY REPO RTIN G S E R V IC E h A. Yes. Q, And the recurrent times we talked about when you tested for the dioxins, were they likewise con ducted under those laboratory techniques, the closet and the gloves and all that? A. To the best of my recollection, yes, that was my standard procedure for handling materials at that tine. Q And do you have a standard procedure for handling dioxin samples? Is it the same procedure? A Same procedure. 0, You don't take any -- if someone handed you a sample of the 2,4,5 T and said, Doc, we want you to test for dioxin in this, do your standard procedures, would they require you to put the 2,4,5 T in one of these hoods and carry on as you did when you tested the trichlorophenol and pentachlorophenol and all that? A Ky group did not have standard procedures for handling the 2,4,5 T, but I'm sure that's the way we would have handled it. That's the prudent way to handle hazardous material. Q So until you determined what was wrong with it, why, you're not going to be fooling around taking any chances with it, is that right? A That's correct. But we would handle It the JA M ES MAY R EPO RTIN G S E R V IC E ft 1 same way whether it had dioxin in it or not. 2 Q * But if you determined that the 2,4,5 T didn't 3 have any dioxin in it, there wouldn't be any reason to put 4 it under those hoods, would there? 5 A. I would still keep it under there. 6 Q Now, if you're working with a dioxin sample 7 and you gpt it under one of those hoods except for those 8 small tiny.diluted things you put in your machine, why do 9 you wear gloves when you handle that? It's not corrosive, 10 is it? 11 A. Excuse me. I need you to refresh my memory 12 on the beginning of that. 13 Q, If you're handling a sample of dioxin, a 14 sample of TCDD, one of the isomers, and I think you test!15 fled you put that under a hood, laboratory hood? 16 A Uh huh (yes). 17 Q, Now, as I understand it -- and you correct 18 me if I'm wrong -- that TCDD Is not corrosive, is It? 19 A. I don't know if It's corrosive or not. It's 20 certainly highly toxic. 21 Q And would you wear gloves when you handled 22 that? 23 A. Definitely. 24 A What purpose would the gloves serve? 25 A. They would serve as a barrier between the JA M ES MAY R EP O R TIN G S E R V IC E ll 7 1 akin and the dioxin. 2 CJ Is that to keep it from being absorbed Into 3 the body? 4 A. To keep any human exposure to a minimum, 5 whether through absorption or ingestion. Q . Breathing it?. 7 A. .* I don't think the gloves are going to pre 8 vent you from breathing it. 9 3 Being under the hood. 10 A. That was the purpose of being under the n hood, yes. 12 ^ :iow, was It your Job to advise anybody on 13 how to handle these kinds of coxic substances, what pre14 cautIons to take ? 15 A. -Io. 1 0, You teste I 3one of this pentachlorophenol 17 for safety. You know If one of the reasons to do it was to 18 determine the safety of the product, Is that right? 19 A. I was doing it to provide data on concen 20 trations of dioxin so that others could decide on the safety. 21 Q Okay, Do you know why there was some testing: 22 for safety of the dioxin? It Just causes pimples, isn't 23 that all it does? ; 24 A. Are you talking about 2,3,7,8 25 tetrachlorodibenzo-para-dioxin7 JA M ES MAY R EP O R TIN G S E R V IC E 1 Q Yeah. Or any of those tetra levels. In 2 the hexa level didn't you say you found one In the penta- 3 chlorophenol? That's toxic, isn't it? 4 A. I don't know. 5 Q Is 2,3,7,8 toxic? 6 A. Everything I read in the papers implies 7 that it is. 8 ^ But is that your only source of information 9 about 2,3,7,8 is what you read in the paper? 10 A. No. I have information from Monsanto n toxicologists as well. 12 Q What would they tell you? 13 A. They would periodically pass along questions 14 about being careless with the material. 15 Q What did they tellyou? 16 A. Keep It in a hood, use gloves, use protective 17 clothing. 18 4 19 do that? Did they tell you why It was necessary to 20 A. Because it's a toxic material. 21 a What's that mean, it's a toxic material? 22 A. Can cause harmful effects to biological 23 organism. 24 Q And you're a biological organism, right? 25 A. That's not on my check. JA M ES MAY R EP O R T IN G S E R V IC E Q What kind of harmful effects does it cause in biological organisms? A, You want me to speculate? Q What you have been told? Apparently, these toxicologists were talking to you about it. Whatever you have been told and then if you want to -- A t. It causes these pimples, as you referred to them, this chloracne, and there have been reports it causes other effects. Q Like what? A Loss of hair, nervousness, pigmentation, excess pigmentation of the skin. There have been reports that it's a carcinogen. Q That's good enough reason not to take any chances with it, isn't it? A As far as I'm concerned. Q Did you have this knowledge when you were looking at pentachlorophenol in *69? A I doubt if I had that much knowledge in '69. I think I was cautioned it was a toxic material, that the 2,3>7,8 tetrachlorodibenzo-para-dioxin isomer was a toxic material and we should handle any standards of that material with a great deal of caution. Q When you say that in your trade, it means put this stuff in a hood and get some gloves on and don't JA M ES MAY R EPO RTIN G S E R V IC E *f y* 6 * y 1 breathe it, right? 2 A Yes. 3 Q Did your knowledge about the toxicity of 4 this substance increase as you omtinued to work with it 5 from '69 up to '79 or '80? 6 A. I'm sure it did. 7 Q D i d you exercise any more care or caution 8 than you did in *69? 9 A. No. 10 Q And in 169 when jmr undertook this project, 11 were you likewise cautioned and briefed by the toxicologist 12 about what it is you're getting into? 13 A. I was cautioned. I don't recall exactly 14 who cautioned me, whether it was a toxicologist -- I Just 15 don't recall who gave me a briefing. 16 , Q And then in connection with your review of 17 the materials there as you geared up there in '69 to look 18 at these dioxins, did you read any studies or anything that 19 contained any toxicological infomnation about dioxin? 20 A As we discussed rerlier, some of the litera- 21 ture surveys I looked at had toxicology in them as well as 22 the analytical methods, but the season for reading the 23 articles was for the analytical. J 24 Q Do you remember reading a study by Kimmig 25 and Schulz, ."Chlorinated Aromatic Cyclic Esters as Substanci 18 4J A M E 5 M A Y R E P O R T I N G S E R V I C E S' f- * 1 Responsible for the So-Called Chloracne," 1957? * 2 A No. * 3 0, Have you ever heard about that study? 4 A. - No. 5 a Did you do some reading in 1969 about the 6 BASF accident In 1953 In Germany? 7 A.- No. 8 a Did you know what that was about? 9 A I later read there was an incident, but I 10 don't know when. it was. 11 Q You don't know when you read it or when the 12 Incident was? 13 A Neither. 14 Q You recall that that study added to your 15 knowledge about the toxicity of the substances you were 16 working with? 17 A No. 18 a Did you ever hear of a guy named Oetel? 19 A No. 20 Q Didn't read any of these studies, as far as 21 you can recall, "Results of Tests on Animals and Clinical 22 Experiences with Highly Toxic Chlorinated Naphthalene j. A 23 Contribution to the P e m a Problem," 1955 study? 24 A No. 25 Q You read Dr. Suskind's 1953 report, X presunw ? JA M ES MAY REPO RTIN G S E R V IC E l 9% 1 A. N o . 2 Q 9 and *50 study reports on the Nitro 3 situation? 4 A. I've not read any of Dr. Suskind's reports. 5 Q> In preparation for testing with pentachloro- 6 phenol you looked at this big file that you mentioned in 7 one of these exhibits, did you look at anything involving 8 the 19*J9 autoclave Incident In Nitro? 9 A. I've never read anything on that. 10 Q You know anything about it? n A. I know there was an incident, an incident 12 at the plant that required cleanup. 13 Q When did you learn that? U A. Sometime during the course of this work. 15 Probably in the early '70Ts. 16 Q Why did that cone up in the early '70's? 17 A. I don't recall the context. 18 Q But it certainly was related, I guess, to 19 what you were doing, wasn't it? 20 21 A. * Q That would be speculation. It involved the trichlorophenol process, 22 didn't It? 23 A. I believe so. 24 Q That's probably why It was related, right? 25 A. I wasn't working with the trichlorophenol, JA M ES MAY R E P O R T IN G S E R V IC E .* 1 2 3 4 5 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 l 17 18 19 20 4 21 22 23 24 25 ) so that's vhy I don't see the relationship. Q In the middle '70fs, you were, though, right? A. No. a When you were on the round robin? A. You asked me if I was working with trichlorophenol. No. $' Somebody under you doing that? A. N o . 'a You had no connection with the triohlorophenol process in the mid-17 0 'a? A. That's correct. Q Well, I misunderstood what you said, then. You had no connection at all with trichlorophenol testing for dioxin in the mid-'70's. A* I participated, we participated in the round robin test, the PDA's test. I had no connection with the trichlorophenol process. a You were testing some trichlorophenol in that round robin test? A. Yes. Q. My question wa3 you seen to remember that you learned about the 19^9 incident at Nitro along about that time and since that process did in fact involve a trichlorophenol process of sorts, there would be some connection there , then, isn't that right? Same substance, same / JA M ES MAY R EP O R TIN G S E R V IC E au kind of problems, maybe presence of dioxin, which is what you were testing for. A. Well, it wasn't the same substance and I don't see the connection you're trying to draw. 4 Okay. You don't know, then, I guess, when Monsanto determined that it was a dioxin that was a contami nant in the unexpected chemical reaction liberating products of unknown decomposition at the Nitro Plant? A. You're correct. I don't know. Q Did you know that Monsanto did in fact determine that? A. No. Q And even though you were involved in.this testing of these various chlorophenols and were copied with Exhibits 3^0 and 3^1 which goes into some detail about chlorinated dioxins and talks about testing for them, you just never really found out anything about 2,^,5 T and the suspected dioxin contaminant that Nitro produced, is that right? A. That's right. Q First time you readabout it was in the newspapers, right? A. I don't know when the first time I learned about it was. Q Were you informed by your employer about it JA M ES MAY R E P O R T IN G S E R V IC E # t 1 at all, or was this something you Just picked up on your o :* * ,..l , Jtv ^y 2 own? _ 3 A. - ` I don't recall. 4 Q During this *79 '78 period you were Involve! 5 with a chemical analysis group that would have Included the Nitro Plant, Is that right, or some product that the Nitro 7 Plant manufactured, right? 8 A. Would you rephrase the question for me 9 again. During the time period -- 10 Q The *78, '79 period you were assigned to a 11 chemical analysis group that would have provided services 12 to the Nitro Plant? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q And in fact the reason you were on the 15 mailing list of Exhibits 3^0 and 3^1 is that yourparticular 16 group was assigned the task of sorting out these substances 17 for dioxin, and that's the reason you were included on these 18 lists, isn't that right? 19 A. I don't believe that'8 the reason I was 20 included on those lists. 21 Q What was the reason? 22 A We had analytical capability and we periodi 23 cally performed analysis for dioxins. 24 Q Was there any other group in the company 25 that was doing that routinely? JA M ES MAY R EP O R T IN G S E R V IC E * I A. In the 1978 or '79 tine frame? 2 Q Yes. 3 A. Monsanto Research Corporation in Dayton, 4 Ohio, developed the capability somewhere in that general 5 tine -frame. 6 Q Is one of those fellows on that distribution 7 list of 340 or 41? If there is a fellow on that outfit, 8 could you point him out to me? 9 A. I'm not sure of the affiliations of all the 10 people on the list. But I don't see anyone I recognise as n being a member of that group. 12 Q And that's true for both of those exhibits? 13 A. That's right. 14 Q, So as far as you know, your analytical 15 group, at least, was getting all this stuff, but even so 16 you don't have any recollection, don't know anything about 17 the 2,4,5 T situation at NItro and the suspected dioxin 18 content from their process from 1949 to *69? 19 A. I was not Involved in the 2,4,5 T study. 20 Q In your travels within the company and 21 looking at the literature and reading about all these dioxin* * 22 and all that, you've Just never had occasion to find out 23 about it, right? y 24 A. As we mentioned earlier, I found out there 25 was an incident, but I don't know the details about it. JA M ES MAY R E P O R T IN G S E R V IC E 1 Q You know who in your department would know 2 or who ought to know about it? 3 At I 'm not sure that anyone in ray department 4 ought to know, nor am I sure anyone in my department at that 5 time would know any more than I did. Q May not be anyone in Monsanto that knows 7 anything about it at all, right? 8 A. I'm in no position to say. 9 MR. CALWELL: Okay, Doctor. Thank you 10 very much. 11 12 13 14 15 l 17 18 19 20 21 James P. Mieure 22 23 24 25 JA M ES MAY R EPO R TIN G S E R V IC E 1 2 STATE OP ILLINOIS ) ) SS 3 COUNTY OP MADISON ) 4 5 6 7 I, M. JOY SPRINGER, a Notary Public, duly 8 conmissioned and qualified in and for the County of Madison, 9 State of Illinois, do hereby certify that pursuant to notice 10 came before me on the l^th day of July, 1983, at the 11 Padisson Hotel, Room 215, 9th Street and Convention Plaza, 12 St. Louis, Missouri, JAMES P. MIEURE, who was by me duly 13 sworn to testify to the truth and nothing but the truth of 14 his knowledge touching and concerning the matters in contro 15 versy in this case ; that the was thereupon carefully examined 16 upon aoth, and his examination reduced to writing under my 17 supervision; that the deposition i3 a true record of the 18 testimony given by the witness; and signature of the wit 19 ness was not waived by agreement of counsel. 20 I FURTHER CERTIFY that I am neither attorney 21 nor counsel for nor related to nor employed by any of the 22 parties to th action in which this deposition is taken; 23 and further, that I an not a relative or employee of any 24 attorney and counsel employed by the parties hereto, or 25 financially interested in the action. JA M ES MAY R E P O R T IN G S E R V IC E IN WITNESS WHEREOF, I have hereunto set my * ,, . v' j 'hand and affixed ny notarial seal on this ________ day of " 1983. 8 Notary Public within and 9 for the County of H&dlson, In the State of Illlhoi%r. 10 11 12 13 u 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 I JA M ES MAY R EP O R T IN G S E R V IC E