Document nkZRNyxdo6x3bK98Ya9DB2VXG

State of Ohio, 1 j SS: County of Cuyahoga. 2 3 A IN THE COURT OF COMMON PLEAS 5 6 Andrew Antoiosky and Francis Antoiosky, etal., 7 Plaintiffs, 8 vs. 9 North American Refractories, 10 .et al., 11 Defendants. 12 ) } ) ) ) ) ) ) ) Case No.1987-1 13 Deposition of George Spahlinger, called by the 14 Plaintiffs for oral examination pursuant to the 15 Pennsylvania Rules of Civil Procedure, taken before 16 Carol Dodrill, Notary Public in and for the State of 17 Ohio, at the offices of North American Refractories, 18 900 Hanna Building, East 14th and Euclid Avenue, 19 Cleveland, Ohio, 44115 on Wednesday, January 27, 20 1988 commencing at 10:00 a.m. 21 22 23 24 FINCUN'MANCINI The Court Reporters 601 ROCXWSi AVI surrs 505 OEVRANQ OHO 44114 (216)646*2272 Plaintiffs.' : 1&2 3 4&5 EXHIBITS Mark'd 4 72 100 FINCUN'MANCINI The Cocrt fleporters 601POCKWEU. AVE SUTFS SOS CLEVELAND CHO 44114 (216)696*2272 PROc-EDINGS (Plaintiffs' Exhibits 1 and marked for identification. MR. JENNINGS: For the record, is the deposition of Mr. George W. Spahli.nge: taken pursuant to notice, under the Pennsylvs Rules of Civil Produce. I would like to ask the Notice of Deposition be marked as Plainti Deposition Exhibit No. 1, and it has been so marked. Mr. Spahlinger, I'll be asking you a series of questions and, if at any time, any c questions are confusing, or you don't ur.dersta: what I am asking, or they are unclear, please don't hesitate to ask me to clarify what I am asking. During the deposition, you must say ye: or no, or whatever, in response to the question because the court reporter can't take a r.od or a head shake. The Co*jrt Reoorten 601ROCKWELL AVE. suns 505 CLEVELAND OHO UU (216)696-2272 GEORGE W. SPAHLINGER of lawful age, being first duly sworn, as hereina certified, was examined and testified as follows: CROSS EXAMINATION BY MR. JENNINGS: Q Mr. Spahlinger, could you please state your name? A George Walter Spahlinger. Q What is your home address? A 601 Dickerson Road. That's Wiliowick, Ohio q What is your present employer and your citl A My present employer is North American Refractories. My title is manager of accou representatives. Q If we could, just for a moment trace your employment history with North American Refractories. When did you first become an employee of NARCO? A October 1, 1961. Q. Now, North American Refactories is often re: to as NARCO? A Yes. Q Give us just a rough idea of how long you wc in your differentjobs. FINCUN-MANCINI The Court Reporters 601flOCKWSIL AVE SUTTS 505 aSVsLANQ CHO 44TU (216) 6?6-2272 I was there about seven years. Prior to t: was working in Horizons, Inc., in research development. I was a research associate t: and I worked there about three years. Now, you're making me think back. don't remember when that was, to be truthfu it. Okay. Before 1961, you were plant superir.t for Viking Steel for about seven years? Right. What kind of a plant was this? It was a warehousing and steel processing pj What type of processing did they do on the s Forming, cutting, slitting, and that type of thing. Was there a lot of furnaces involved in this No. Just fabrication? Fabrication, that's right. Prior to that, you were with Horizons, Inc, research, as a research associate, for approximately five years? That's correct. What was your job at that time? Basically, v The Car? Reporters 601 nocxwgj. AVS. SUT S05 CUVSLANQ oho ertti (216)696-2272 1 did it involve? 2A We were doing research with nuclear materials. It 3 was classified at the time. I don't know whether j 4 or not it has been released from classified, to be 5 honest with you. 6 Q What is your educational background? 7 A I had three years of college. I did not graduate. 8 I took supplementary courses in export sales and 9 marketing, took several of those. 10 Q When did you get out of college? 1) A That's a good question. 19 -- let's see. I got 12 married in 1948, so it was probably about 1950. 13 Q Okay. So, if you got out of college in 1950, that l j14 was about 11 years before you started with NARCO, 15 and about 10 of those years would have beer, taker, 16 up with Viking Steel and Horizons? 17 A That's correct. 18 Q Have you had any other employment for more than, 19 say, six months? 20 A Oh, yes. I worked for Republic Steel while I was 21 going to school. 22 Q What did you do with them? 23 A I was in their combustion engineering department 24 at that time. That was -- I don't know whether or FINCUN-MANCINI The CouT Reporters 601ROCKW6U. AVS. SUITE 505 CtEVELANQ OHO 44114 (216)696-2272 cCMursAMSC^'O'iCN a'v *scsrs 1 not you are familiar with that type of engineering 2 department, but different steel mills have i 3 different ways. But, it was primarily inspection | 4 of brick work and that type of thing, and also, we 5 monitored the fuel usages and temperatures of 6 different furnaces, and that type of thing. 7 Q How long did you do that for Republic Steel, i 8 approximately? I 9 A Approximately three years. Might have been a 10 little longer. 11 Q Was this full time, or off ar.d on? 12 A No, X was full time. 13 Q Did you have any specialized training of any kind 14 for that, or was it just on-the-job? ! 15' A On-the-job. ; i 16 Q These are the gauges that you have to gomeasure j | 17 and record periodically, and you did that? . j it 13 A And some repair work. 19 Q What kind of repair work? 20 A On the gauges and the regulators. 21 Q Were you an hourly employee at thattime? 22 A Yes. i 23 Q And what plant was this? 24 A That was right down -- Corrigan-McKinney works. FINCUN-MANCINI fheCout Reporters 601ROCKWEU. AVS. SUTc 505 OSVSIANQ OHO 4404 (216)696-2272 ccmputer-a.ced t8*ns:sist'cn av xs:aise It is now called LTV, I believe. Q That was in the Cleveland area? A Ves. Q Was your job class as ahourly employee at Republic Steel? A I have no idea what you mean by that. I have no idea what the job class would be. Q Did you have a particular title? Was it mechanical maintenance, or gauge repairman, or what would your title have been? A I really don't recall. Q Okay. Have you had any contact with the steel industry, in an employment setting, before that job with Republic Steel? A No. Q Okay. So, other than your work with Republic Steel, Horizons, and Viking Steel, have you had any other contact with the steel industry in any way, or refractories in any way, before begirnin with NARCO? A NO. Q Now, in 1961, you startedwith NARCO? A That's correct. Q If you could just walk through, briefly, the FINCUN-MANCINI The Court Reporters 601 Roocwai avs. surrs 505 a Cleveland oho <utu (216)696-2272 various positions you had with NARCO, and I'll as you a few questions about each of those. A Well, I started as a sales correspondent and move up to senior sales correspondent, and then I moved into this position. Q Okay. So, your first position was as a sales correspondent? A That's correct. Q For how long did you hold that job? A I really don't know. I would have to estimate, estimate about four to five years. Q And what were your job responsibilities? A Job responsibilities was that we just handled the -- contacted various accounts. It was set up on the geographical sales territory type thing. And, we would be responsible for receiving quotations and inquiries from the field and from customers, and prepare the quotations, and see that the orders were entered properly, entered them and checked them out, and handled general correspondence with customers. Q Did your sales correspondent job require you to travel a lot, or did you stay in the central office? FINCUN-MANCINI The GxrT Reporters 601 ROCKWELL AVE. SUTTE 505 CLEVELAND OHO 44TU (216) 696-223 ^ ~ mP u " -Ai C 3 a*'Cn a* *SC3'9 No, we were centrally located. So, if I understand it , you would have had a region of the country that would be your responsibility, and you would take care of -- i handle all of the paperwork and make sure everything went routinely from the headquarters standpoint. A That's correct. I 1 ! Q Were you located in Cleveland the whole time? A In Cleveland. Q What area of the country were you responsible for as a sales correspondent? A At that time, we rotated it, so that, actually, ! 1 over the length of those years, I actually handled i the entire country. i I Q Okay. During any period of that time, the four or j five years you were sales correspondent, were you j *. i responsible for the Johnstown, Pennsylvania, area? A Only in a backup capacity. Q Okay. A And that was related to a specific customer. There were certain major customer that were handled by selected individuals. Q Okay. During that four to five year period as a FINCUN-MANCINI The Court Reporters 601 ftOCKWSU AVS. SWTS 505 CLSVSlANQ OHO 44TU (2fc) 6*6-2272 sales correspondent, were you responsible for any substantial period of tine for the Manor.gahela Valley area; you know, the Manor.gahela Valley j jI j i steel mills of different companies? MR. HEINTZMAN: I object to the form as what you mean by "substantial". During this four to five year period, were you ever assigned the area of Pittsburgh and its surrounding counties for the different steel mills there, that may have been customers of NARCO? Yes. Now, after that, you became a senior sales correspondent. How long were you a senior sales | correspondent? For most of my career. Let's see; four or five years, and I believe here, I had this job I think i j about, I would say about 15 years. j i What were your responsibilities, as a senior sales | correspondent? Essentially, the same as a sales correspondent, with a little more responsibilities that's added to it as far as, I was assigned a specific major account. I also developed the export business for NARCO, as well, during that period of time. I FINCUN-MANCINI The Coot Reporters ---------------- 601 ROCKWELL AV6. SUTT 505 CLEVELAND OHO 44TU-------------------------------------------- ' (7-6) 696*2272 C3mPLT9-*iCE2 *>v xSCS'SE I Q Who was your specific major account? 2 A Armco, Inc. 3Q And would that have been all Armco plants? i A All Armco plants. 5 Q Did you have any other specific major accounts fo 6 any particular period of time, during that Job as 7 a senior sales correspondent? 8 A Yeah; Republic Steel. 9 Q Would that be it? 10 A Yes. 11 Q Then, I believe you indicated about seven years 12 ago, you became the manager of accounts? 13 A Right, account representative. U Q What did that job involve? 15 A Well, I was directly involved with helping to 16 establish the computerized order entry system tha 17 we are now on. I am also involved with the 18 pricing of all products and supervision of the 19 department. 2a Q What is the department that you're supervising? 21 A It's the internal sales department. 22 Q Okay. Your position as manager of account 23 representatives; is that still considered sales, 24 or do you hold several hats in terms of the FINCUN-MANCINI The Court Reporters 601 ROCKWELL AVS. SUITS 505 CLSVSLANQ OHO 44TU (216)696-2272 organizational charge of the company? I'm not sure what you mean by several hats. j j I don't understand whether you're still considered i primarily working in the sales department or whether you have, say, for example, accounts payables responsibilities, or automatic data processing responsibilities, or how you fit into this system. | It's primarily sales, but I do have some accountability as far as maintaining and establishing some of the -- at that time, processing marketing functions. Okay. Would it be fair to say that the bulk of your career with NARCO, since 1961, has been primarily in the sales accounts of the ! ! i ; Corporation? That's correct. Okay. If we could take a moment or two and j basically trace the history of NARCO, so I'll understand any major corporate changes that it may have undergone, it's my understanding that NARCO was originally formed in '29, as a separate organization? I am not sure whether it was that year or not, but The Cool Reoorten 601 ROCXW&L AVS SlflTc 505 OiVSLAND CWO 643V1 (216) 696-2272 CCM -Ai OED TB*SS;Sl9'lCS 1 v XSC9'B 1 2Q that's correct. It was in the late '20's that NARCO cane into i ! 3 existence? 4 A That's right. ' i 5 Q Has NARCO operated as a separate corporation the 6 entire time since it was formed? 7 A No. 3 Q So, there were various times when it may have been 9 operated as a division of somebody else? 10 A That's correct. 11 Q 12 It's my understanding that in 1965, approximately, NARCO was acquired by a corporation named Eltra 13 Corporation; E-l-t-r-a? 14 A That's correct. 15 Q Did NARCO operate as a separate corporation from 16 the late 1920's, all the way until that 1965? 17 MR.. HEINTZMAN: I object to the form, j 13 What do you mean, "operate as a separate 19 corporation"? Do you mean, was it owned by 20 somebody else? 21 MR. JENNINGS; No, I am asking from j j22 the late 1920's up until the purchase by Eltra 23 Corporation, did NARCO operate as a corporation I 24 under the name NARCO, or was it operating at some FINCUN-MANCINI The Cout Reporters 601 ROCKWELL AV. SUTE 505 OSVSLANQ0*0 44TU (216)696-222 C3mP'_!T9-a, CCS T9*nSC3 **'Cs gv xSZP'SE i point in time before 1965, as a business or partnership or structureship of some other company? A No. Q So, NARCO was a corporation? Somebody owned its stock, but it operated as a corporation from the late 1920's up until 1965? i A Ves, a privately held corporation. Q Okay. Now, after 1965, did Eltra Corporation i! i merge NARCO into Eltra? Or, did Eltra continue to ! operate NARCO as a corporation, and Eltra only owned the stock? I i MR. HEINTZMAN: I am going to object. This is not the.right witness to ask these questions of. It gets into legal conclusions that he has to make about what was being done. I believe your interrogatories ask us to give a corporate history, which we will do, but I don't think it is proper to ask this witness these kinds of things. MR. JENNINGS: Anything he can't answer, he can say he can't answer. But, since you haven't answered the interrogatories, I have a right to find out as much as I can regarding the FINCUN-MANCINI The Court Reporters 601 ROCKWSU. AVE. SUITE 505 CS.SVSIANQ CHO 441U (2T6)696-2272 CCMOU7ER*A.OEO *s*ns:sib'-;Cn XSCSI0E corporate structure. If he doesn't know, he can say he doesn't know. But, he was an employee, and, as an employee at that time, he can say i j i i whether it was a sole proprietorship or a proprietorship, or whether the name changed, or things like that, | I am not going into the mechanics of subtle reorganization of the Corporation. I just want to. know the basics. A Eltra allowed us to use and operate under our North American Refractories name. MR. KEINTZMAN: Don't assume. I i don't want you to guess about what was going on at ' that level. We are going to provide the information. I think you're entitled to the information. Whether or not you're entitled to ! ! get it from this gentlemen, that was not involved in the intricacies of all of that. I am going to object to this whole line of questioning, . MR. JENNINGS: Okay. i ! I r! j I Q After '65, you continued to operate under the name NARCO, North American Refractories Corporation? j t A Yes. j i Q Doyou know whether it becamea part of Eltra, or j j flNCUN'MANCINI The Court Reporters ---------------------------------- 601 ROCKWELL AVE. SUITE 505 CLEVELAND OHO (216)696-2272 j j 1 cOMPuTga-Aioeo :s*ns:sipt,cn XSCS'SC 1 was operating as a subsidiary of Eltra? 2 MR. HEIN7ZMAN: I am going to object. 3 Q You don't know whether it was a division or a 4 subsidiary? 5 A No. 6 Q At any time in your career, have you had an 7 employee stock ownership program, where you would 3 get stock as a benefit, either pension or some 9 other means, by where you could buy the stock of 10 the Corporation. II A There was an Esop Plan, I think they called it. 12 We were allowed to participate in that. 13 Q When did that come into being, approximately? 14 A I would say approximately '80. 15 Q Was the stock that was being purchased out of 16 NARCO, or out of Eltra. 17 A I really don't know, to tell you the truth. I 18 think it was Eltra. 19 Q Just so I'm clear, you don't know whether NARCO 20 was ever operated as a division of Eltra or not? 21 A I can't say for certain. 22 Q Now, were there any other major changes in 23 ownership of NARCO before the merger in 1979 with 24 Eltra. FINCUN-MANCINI The Colt? Reporters 601 ROCKWELL AVE. SUIT? 505 CLEVELAND 0O ^T-4 (216)696-2272 COMPUTEP-AiCeo tq*nS:Si=':Cn V xssa.ae MR. HEIN7ZMAN: I am going to ! object. You called that merger. I'm not sure j that that's right. I am objecting to the premise i that Is in the question, I guess. i I Q Were there any changes in the ownership of NARCO, ! to your knowledge, between '69 and 1971? j In 1979, NARCO merged into the Allied Chemical Corporation? MR. HEINZMAN: This witness cannot j j ! give a legal opinion as to whether that was a merger or a purchase. I am going to instruct him not to answer that question. He is not qualified to give that kind of a legal conclusion to you. MR. JENNINGS: You can certainly i i instruct him not to answer at any time, but I want ! to put you on notice that that's not the way the I J Pennsylvania. Rules of Civil Procedure operate, You can object all you want. and j j [ i If you instruct him not to answer, I am preserving the option to get costs and come back here and take his deposition or somebody else's. The rules say that the witness answers all questions, and I can show you the particular rule, j I if you want to look at it, if you are totally flNCUN-MANCINI The Cocrt Reoortefs 601 POCKWSa AVE. SUITE 505 CLEVELAND OHO 4ATU (216)6*6*22*2 ca"uTER-Aioeo tqanscsip TiCN xscb'SC ] unfamiliar with it. But, I assume, you do know I 2 the rules. So, if you instruct him not to answer, j j 3 you do it at your peril. j 4 MR. HEINTZMAN: I do know the rules, 5 and we will give you the complete history, and I 6 am not going to have him form legal conclusions on I 7 that. ; 8Q Just so you understand, Mr. Spahlinger, the only 9 reason we are doing that is because my client has 10 not given me that, to date, and you're here today, | II so I am going to persist until I get answers and j i 12 the record is clear that he is willing to provide j 13 the information. 14 A All right. 15 Q 16 17 Do you understand that, around 1979, Eltra was acquired by some means by the Allied Chemical Corporation.. i 18 A Yes. !ii 19 Q At that '79 acquisition, whatever thelegalform | 20 which it took, did NARCO continue to operate under 21 the name, NARCO? 22 A Yes. 1 I 23 Q Was there any change in the ownership ofNARCO, to j 24 your knowledge, between 1979 and 1986? j i FINCUN-MANCINI The Coot Reporter 601 ROCKWELL AV. SUITS 505 CLEVELAND OHO 44114 (216)696-2272 CCmPuTEH-aiOEO TranSCPiptiGn xscp<ae 1 A No. 2Q Now, it's my understanding that in January and 3 February of `86, NARCO was sold to some other 4 company or entity. 5 A Well, yes. I i6 Q Who acquired NARCO in January or February of 1986? 7A It was a leverage by out by our executives and by e a consortium. It was Curtland Capital and Keller 9 Financing. 10 Q Was there any change in the name of NARCO after n this leverage by out in 1986? 12 A No. j 13 Q So, from 1986 to thepresent, you have continued 14 to operate under the name. North American | I 15 Refractories Corporation? 16 A That's correct. 1/ Q Do you know if there were anyreincorporations I I I j 18 or -- we will just leave it at that -- whether 19 NARCO went through any reincorporations because of 20 any of these corporate transfers we talked about 21 since 1960? 22 A I am not sure what you mean by "reincorporatior.." 23 Q Okay. Do you know if NARCO is being operated now 24 as a corporation or a division of some other riNCUN-MANCINI Coot Peoorreo 601 ROCKWELL AVS. SUITS 505 CiSVSLANQ OHO 44P4 (216)696-2272 COmu;TE**a,OEO TSiNSCaio'ics av xsCa;SE company? A It's a corporation. j Q Do you know if NARCO was ever operated as a ' division of anybody else? MR. HEINTZMAN: Objection. You can answer, but I am going to object. The question was raised. A I am not sure what you mean. Over any particular period of time? I thought we went through all of that. Q Well, it's not clear to me. I think, at one J point, you may have indicated there were some time periods in which NARCO was operated as a division of some other corporation, and whether or not -- what time period or what that time period was, that it was a division as opposed to a - i j MR., HEINTZMAN: I am going to object I I at this point. The problem is, what you're asking j this witness to give you is a distinction between the legal meaning of subdivision, division, or subsidiary and division. And what your understanding is, and what is in his mind; it | might be -- we will give you the corporate history, but I am not going to have this witness j j FINCUN-MANCINI The Court Reporter* 601 ROCKWELL AVS. SUITE 505 CLEVELAND CHO 44TU (216) 696-22TC CQMPUTER-Aioeo TRANSCSlB'iCN < XSCPiSC 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 ]] 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 Q 20 21 22 23 24 give you legal opinions as to what the status was at any particular point in tine. I'll instruct him not to answer. MR. JENNINGS: Just for the record, you may think he is confused, but when the gentlemen starts talking about leverage by outs 1 i I r and gives me names of finance companies and who's involved in it, he is a very sophisticated ji individual. You may be confused. But, if he doesn't understand the question, he may say so. I have a right to know what in the world your corporate structure is, and you have beer. i j 1 j refusing to answer that question up until this time. And, I want the record clear, that if I am prejudiced one iota by refusing to give me that f information, all options are reserved, and the 1 i witness says-he doesn't understand what a division ! is or a subsidiary. Do you understand what a -division is of a company? MR. KEINTZMAN I am going to object. I My objection is on the record. You're asking this j witness for legal conclusions. I said you're r.ct j I going to be prejudiced, because we intend to give ! | you the .full corporate history. I am not going to | i FINCUN-MANCINI The Court Reporters ! j ---------------------------------601 ROCKW&l AVE. SUfTc 505 CLEVELAND OHO 4404 -------------------------------------------- (216)696-2272 CQMPuTES-AiOEO tbanscsiPTicn ' XSCP'SC {. H I argue all morning on this. You will get the history, but I am not going to have this witness i go through this. i Q Do you understand what a subsidiary is; namely a company whose stock is owned by some other entity? MR. HEINTZMAN: I object and instruct the witness not to answer. i i Q Do you understand what a division is? Maintenance has a portion, a division, not -- MR. HEINTZMAN: I object and instruct the witness not to answer. Q Do you know if NARCO was ever operated as a division of some other corporation? MR. HEINTZMAN: Objection. Instruct the witness not to answer. MR. JENNINGS: Again, just for the j record, I protest. This is contrary to the rules, and I intend to seek the proper motions and the proper costs, and, secondly, because I have a right to what we have gone through here today. Q Okay, Mr. Spahlinger, let's try a new subject. Do you hold any stock in NARCO? A No. Q Do you own any stock, as part an employee benefit FINCUN-MANCINI The Coot Reporter 601 ROCKWeu. AVE. SUTTS 5C5 O.SVSIANQ CHO (76)696.2272 CCMOUTES-AiOEO TR*ns:B'0':;n - xS C S : Q program? No. ! I Have you ever, in your career, received stock as part of a benefit? Yes. And whose stock did Allied. you receive. | j | And when did that first begin? Was this at 1979? j Yes . Okay. Beginning with your career in '61, describe for me, in general terms, how the sales operation of NARCO was organized. Sales. Well, it still is separated. On the outside field it is constructed of segments; the outside sales force and the inside sales force. The outside sales force is broken up, and it continued that way until just recently. It still retains that type of structure, with some modifications, whe^e we have a diversification | program that is currently in place to try and j extend that or improve our position in the ( industrial market. So, we have some marketing cut! there that crosses geographic territorial lines. The inside sales department was The Coot Reoonefs 601 ROCKWELL AV. SUITE S05 * CLEVSLANQ OHO 44R4 (216)696*2272 C3mPuTER*aiOGO TSanSCS'O-Cn constructed, generally, of the sales force. ii Mow. they are called account representatives. It started out as sales correspondent, senior sales correspondent, and the managers of sales correspondents; and now it is account representatives, senior and junior account representatives, senior account representatives, I and the manager of account representatives, and then sales administration. Q What was the jurisdiction of the inside sales force, as compared to the outside sales force? A The outside sales force was primarily responsible for the direct contact with the customers and the I mills and the users of our products. The inside sales force was generally responsible for the internal workings of the sales marketing organization within MARCO, primarily. Accounting liasor. would have been the outside sales force, and the outside customers, and our particular plants and major companies. Q So. if I understand it, the outside sales force, is the one that would have most day-to-day, on-site contact with customers? A That's correct. FINCUN-MANCINI The Coot Reoorten 601 ftOCKWEU. AVS. a SUITS SOS a CUVEIANQ OHO 44M (216)6^6*2272 TRansCHiS'.Cn q v XSC^'BE 1 Q And, the inside salesforce wouldmake sure that ; f 2 things went routinely between the plant and the i 3 outside sales force? 4 A That's correct, and alsothe customers. i 5 Q Now, was this basically the organization from the 6 early '70's forward. A Yes. 7 | 8 Q Was this also the organization of the sales force 9 before '70? 10 A To the best of my knowledge, yes. 11 Q Focusing, for a moment, on the outside sales i 12 force, how many geographical regions or areas were 13 set up over time? 1 14 MR. HEINTZMAN: Do you mean how many ! 15 exist today, or how many have existed? ! 16 Q Well, what was the setup over that time? Are we i 17 talking about five regions in the country, or j 1 18 four? 19 A Approximately, it would range between eight to ! i l 20 nine. I think it's up a little higher than that 21 now. 22 Q What was the name of the region that would have 23 encompassed the western half of Pennsylvania? 24 A Pittsburgh territory. FINCUN-MANCINI The Court Reporters 601 ROCKWELL AVE. SUITS 505 CLEVELAND OHO <UTU (216) 696*2272 COMPUTER-AiSea TRANSCfl'TiCN "v xSCBtBC 1 Q And, how big of an area was encompassed by the 2 Pittsburgh territory? 3 A Well, really, it was kind of small compared to 4 rest, but it would, essentially, be the western 5 end of Pennsylvania. 6 Q Would Johnstown, Pennsylvania, come within the 7 Pittsburgh territory? 8 A Yes. 9 Q Would all the steel facilities in the Pittsburg 10 Butler, Washington, Pennsylvania, area be 11 encompassed within the Pittsburgh territory; an 12 what territory encompassed the state of West 13 Virginia? 14> A State of West Virginia would be handled by the 15 Cincinnati sales office. 16 Q What was the name of the territory that would h 17 encompassed .the State of West Virginia? 18 A Cincinnati, too. 19 Q What area encompassed eastern Ohio? 20 A Eastern Ohio, would be split between -- well, 21 truthfully, we split Ohio north and south, 22 actually, and that would have been either 23 Cincinnati in the South and Cleveland in the 24 North. FINCUN-MANCINI The Coot Reporters -------------------------- ------- 601ROCKW6U AV- SUITE 505 CLfiVELANQ OHO (216) 696-2272 ---------------------------- CQwBuTEB'AiCEO HanSCSiPTiCn XSCBiQE Q Which territory had Steubenville? A Steubenville would have beer., actually, Cleveland. Q Mr. Spahlinger, how was the Pittsburgh territory set up, in terms of organization within that territory? A This was an inside sales manager, and he would have outside salesmen reporting to him. Q Okay. Who were the district sales managers within the Pittsburgh territory since you; I mean with NARCO. A When I started with North American Refractories, it was a gentlemen by the name of Jim Anmerman, A-m-m-e-r-m-a-n; and following him, this was a gentlemen by the name of Tom Doty. Q How would that be spelled? A D-o-t-y. And, the current sales manager is Mr. Wilson. Q And, during what basic time period was Mr. Ammerman the basic sales manager? A I know he was a longtime employee of NARCO, when he became district sales manager. He was in that position when X started, and he retired. I'm not sure when he retired, but he was the man in that position the longest that I know of, until more riNCUN-MANCINI The Coat Reoorters 401 ROCXWSl AVI SOTS 505 CL5V51ANQ CHO AIM (216)696*2272 COmPUTCR-aiOCO transcription XS CR i S 1 recently, it became Wilson. il j 2 Q Did Mr. Ammermar. retire more than 10 years ago? i I 3 A Yes, I would think. Yes, it should be just about 4 that time. 5 Q Did he retire in the Pittsburgh area? 6 A Yes. 7 Q And, do you know what town or what area? j 8 A No, I don't. 9 Q Do you know if he is still alive? 10 A No, I don't. 11 Q How long did Tom Doty holda the position of 12 distict sales manager? I j 1 13 A A very short time, only a couple of years. 14 Q And where is he today? Do you know whether or r.ct 15 he is still with NARCO? 16 A No. , f ! j17 Q When did Mr.. Wilson became district sales manager? j 18 A X would say five years ago. We had a gentlemen j 19 who was acting district sales manager in the j 20 interim. j 21 Q And what was his name? 22 A Joe Metzer. | i 23 Q M-e-s-s-e-r? 24 A M-e-t-z-e-r.. j j FINCUN-MANCINI The Court Reporters 601ROCKWEU. AVS. SUITS 505 CLEVELAND OHO 4404 (216)696-2272 C3MPUTa-AiOED TRAN SCa'P^'CN n'- XSCR<0 i 1 Q How long was he acting district sales manager? 2A About a year or two years. 3 Q That would be just before 1982? And, Mr. Wilson 4 has been district sales manager from 1982 until 5 the present? 6A That's correct. '\iVT-o.- r I'-'- 7 Q And approximately how many sales managers would 8 the Pittsburgh area have had? 9 A At one- time? 10 Q Well, if it varied over time periods, let me know n that. 12 A X would say it varied between two to four people. 13 Q Those two to four outside salesmen within the Pittsburgh territory were responsible for all the ! u i 15 people within that territory? j 16 A And the district salespeople, as well. j i 17 Q Was it set up so that the sales manager would have 18 been responsible for certain accounts? 19 A Yes. 20 Q How did that happen? Was it always the biggest 21 accounts or the most important, or what decided 22 what the district sales manager got? 23 A That's a good question. Normally, the district 24 sales manager assumed the responsibility for those FINCUN-MANCINI The Cart Reoorten 601 ROCKWELL AVE. SUITE 505 CLEVELAND OO A4IU (216)696-2272 caMPure.R-Aioes tsansc9'' :n sv xsc sc accounts he was most familiar with and felt that he could deal with more properly. And. he would j 1 then establish which salesmen would call or. ; whichever other territories. He would assign those, primarily. Q So, the district sales manager would have had the opportunity to choose certain accounts for himself j or herself, and the other accounts would be assigned to the various outside salespeople? A Correct. Q Who were the outside salesmen in the Pittsburgh territory since you began with NARCO? A That's a lot of them. Dick Wilson was one.Steve Metzer, of course, Tom Doty. I really don't ! remember the other names. Q Okay. Is Mr. Wilson, Dick Wilson, the same as j R.E. Wilson? A Yes. Q So, that's Richard? A That's right. Q Is Mr. Wilson still located in thePittsburgh area. A Yes. Q Where is NARCO'S Pittsburgh officelocated? FINCUN-MANCINI ! : j ! The Cocrt Reporter j --------------------------------- 601 rKXKWRL AVE. SUITS 505 CtEVcLANQ OHO 44IU ---------- ------------------------------- ' (216)696-2272 ccmputea-aiocs tPANScsiPTiS.N ' xscaiae A We've moved. Unfortunately. I am not sure of the 1i address. I car. get it. Q Well, it's in the Pittsburgh area? ' A Yes. Q Where is Steve Metzer working? A In the Pittsburgh Office. j ! j Q Is he one of the salespeople now? A He is really a product manager now. He works ! f primarily with aluminum companies. Q How long has Mr. Metzer been associated with the Pittsburgh office, in one form or another? A It's got to be 12 to 15 years. Q How long was Mr. Tom Doty associated with the Pittsburgh territory in sales? A I would say it was about four years, at the most. i Q Was there any sort.of regular turnover of j salespeople -in particular territories; like, did i !t the company ever have a policy of changing things . every couple of years, or could a salesperson go into a territory and stay there for, IS or 20 years? `| A A salesperson could go there and stay there for 15 j or 20 years. There is no regular position so as i j < far as rotation is concerned. FINCUN'MANCINI The Co<Jt Reoorren 601 ROCKWai AVS. SUITS 505 CLSV&ANQ OHO (216)696-2272 Do you know which of the Pittsburgh territory salespeople had responsibility for Johnstown, at some point this year? No, I can't say which one. Do you know whether any of the gentlemen that you mentioned ever had any specific responsibilities for Bethlehem Steel, in Johnstown. Jim Ammerman I know did. Okay. Are there any others that you can recall having responsibility for Bethlehem Steel, Johnstown. Dick Wilson. Is there anyone that you know of in NARCO that was close to Mr. Ammerman, on a personal level, that would know where he is today, if we can't find him in a phone book or whatever? I can't think of anyone who's still with NARCO who j was close to Jim. There were a lot of people who knew him, but whether they were really close to him or not, on a friendly basis -- I mean, to the point of exchanging Christmas presents and things like that. Only retirees like Bob Moffett. He was close. They would exchange Christmas cards. Where is Mr. Moffett today? The Coo? deportee 601ROCXWSU. AV. SUITE 505 CLEVELAND OHO 44M (216)696-2272 COMPUTER-AIDED 'ranS;P'P^'~n <scac A He resides close to Clearfield, Pennsylvania. i Q Okay. If you-could, quickly tell me who the ; district sales managers would have been for the 1 Cincinnati territory. A Yes, there was a man who's currently there; D.E. Sheuumon. Prior to him, M.A. Rafferty. Q R-a-f-f-e-r -- j A R-a-f-f-e-r-t-y. Prior to him -- let's see -- he | is no longer with us, and I can't remember his name now. Prior to him was Vern Girard. Q G-- A G-i-r-a-r-d. He is diseased. Q How long was Mr. D.E. Sheuuman sales manager? i j I A I would say about five years. Q Was he in sales in the Cincinnati territory before i that? i A For a short period. i ; Q And what was the time period that Mr.Rafferty was , ii a salesman? Ii A Sam Rafferty was there for close to ten years. j Q Was he in sales, before he becamedistrict manager? A Yes. | Q In the Cincinnati territory? ! i i FINCUN'MANCINI j The Coui Reoorten j --------------------------------- 601ROCKWSU. AVS. SUITS 505 ClVSlANO OHO 44TU ------------------------------------------ ' (2T6)6?6-2272 And, where is Mr. Rafferty today? He's in our western district -- I'm not sure wh his title is -- the manager or salesman, I believe. Was that in Cleveland? No, west coast. And, he is stillwith NARCO? Yes. I am saying -- I am trying to think the man's name now. I should know it, because I kn it well. And, I just can't think of it. I can think of his name. How long was he district sales manager. I would say about four or five years. He's no longer with NARCO, and I don't know where he we How long ago did he leave NARCO? Had to be closed to -- had to be close to 15 years. Okay. And Mr. Girard, who's deceased, to your knowledge, what time period would he have been district sales manager? Ke was the sales manager when I first came on there. He had been there a number of years. I don't know how long he was district sales manag FINCUN-MANCINI TheCout Reoorfem 6C! ROCXVvai Avs. a sure 505 CLSVSiANQ CHO A4W (2k) 496-2272 C3MuTa-AiOEO tsanscsisti-n iv xscsise 1 there. 2 Q When did he stop being district sales manager? 3 A When he retired. And, you will askme,when he 4 retired, and I really don't remember that. 5 Q Was it less than ten years after you started, or 6 more than ten years? 7 A No, it was less than ten years. 8 Q So, sometime before 1970. 9 A Ves. 10 Q Are there particular salespeople that work in the n Cincinnati territory that you can recall, other 12 than these gentlemen? n A Just one other one. Well, there is one Neal 14 DeLong. D-e-L-o-n-g. Ke is no longer with NARCO 15 He started at the same time I started. That's wh 16 I can remember. And Kevin R. Khal, who's a 17 salesman in that territory. 18 Q K-e-v-i-n? 19 A R. K-h-a-1. And Jody A. Persino was also -- 20 P-e-r-s-i-n-o. 21 Q How long has Mr. Khal been in sales in the 22 Cincinnati territory? 23 A I would say about five years. 24 Q And for how long has Mr. Persino been in sales in FINCUN-MANCINI The Ccut Reporters 601 ROCKWELL AVE. SUITS 505 CLEVELAND OhC 44TM (216) 696*2272 COmP-j^ES-aiCES -p*nSC^'^:Cn *SCSi8 the Cincinnati territory? I would say about four or five years. Also, do you know if there are particular people in the Cleveland office that had responsibility for Steubenville, Ohio. Yeah, but the individual that had responsibility for Steubenville would be the -- in the past it was Don Behner. I care more about the past than I do about the present. He was the past one. At what time would Mr. Behner have had Steubenville? He had it at the time I joined the company, and probably up until about 1979 or '80, through there. Where is Mr.. Behner now? He left the concern. Now, he was working for his brother, and I really don't remember the name of that company. Where was he living? In Cleveland, local area. I'm not sure which area. Do you know if he is still in the Cleveland area? The Court Reportera 601 ROCKWELL AVS. SUITE 505 CLEVELAND OHO 4AH4 (216) 6?6*2272 ccMPurcs-Aioca rsANScs:Tic iv xscfl'se i 1 A I believe he is. 2 Q Who would have had Steubenville in 1980 or so? 3 A I really don't remember. 4 Q And, you said that there's someone who has taken 5 over Steubenville more recently? 6A I don't remember where Steubenville is. I'm not 7 sure. X believe we had a change in territory 8 right in that general area, and I don't know if 9 that's located now in the Pittsburgh or Cleveland !0 area. Still, I imagine -- I don't know if anybody 11 was going down there now. If I had to take a shot 12 at it, it would either be Sam Baker -- it had to 13 be Sam Baker. I don't think Chuck Murphey would H go. 15 Q Okay. Is Mr. Baker still with the Company? 16 A Yes. 17 Q Out of the Cleveland office? 18 A Yes. 19 Q Is he an outside salesperson? 20 A Yes. 21 Q Okay. Thank you very much. Let's take a moment, 22 and could you explain to me how the inside sales 23 force is organized, structurally. 24 A Now? FINCUN-MANCINI The Court Reporters 601 ROCKWELL AV6. SUITS 505 CLEVELAND OHO &&TA (216)696-2272 caMBures-Aiceo *s*ss:5 N 0 v XSCB'SC 4 1 Q Well now, and in the past. j 2 A Well, in the past, as I said, it was set up so | ( 3 that certain individuals would have major accounts 4 and for the nonmajor accounts with a geographical 5 sales territory basis, so that the 6 responsibilities were handling one particular 7 sales territory, or one or more would be assigned j 8 to different people. j 9 Right now, we restructured it so we have 10 a steel group and an industrial group, and we have 11 specific accounts assigned to different 12 individuals. 13 Q When did the restructuring take place. 14 A About two years ago. I IS Q Okay. Well, my questions from here on out will t 16 not be focusing on after 1986. I am questioning 17 on the way things functioned in the inside sales 18 department before the restructuring. \ 19 What were the titles ofthepeople within ; 20 the inside sales force that wouldhave 21 responsibility for sales areas? 22 A Sales correspondent and senior sales | ] I 23 correspondent. ' l 24 Q And, then, there was a manager that headed up the i l FINCUN-MANCINI | The CoLrf Reporter ---------------------601 rockwsu. Ave. suite sos cisvsianq oho 44114 ------------------------------ ; (216)696-2272 CSMSljT.AiCG 'SanSCSiP'iCn 0v 41 department? ; 2A Yes. 3 Q Let's identify the managers, first. 4 A Well, when! joined thecompany, it was Otto j 5 Stetzel, S-t-e-t-z-e-1 and G.A. Miller, 6 M-i-l-l-e-r. and, then, it was R. A. Lund. 7 Q* L-u-r.-d? 8 A L-u-n-d. ! J 9 Q J.V. Mackin, and then I. 10 Q How is Mr. Hackin's -- 11 A M-a-c-k-i-n. 12 Q And then yours? | i j 13 A That's correct. ! 14 Q And, to your knowledge, whattime period were you | i 15 the manager of the inside sales? 16 A Within the last six years. j j 17 Q That's about. 1980? j 18 A Yes. 19 Q Is Mr. Stetzel still alive? 20 A No. 21 Q What time period did he stop as the manager of 22 inside sales? 23 A I would say he was manager for the first ten years 24 of my career. And George Miller was also -- he ) FINCUN-MANCINI The Cout fteoortem 601 ROCKWELL AV5. SUITE 505 CLEVELAND OHO 4404 (216)696-222 CSmP<jTR-a.)0C3 'raisS3s''"'Cn B- XSCR'SE 1 was at the same period of time, but he also had 2 he was a little younger, so he remained in office 3 a little longer. I would say ten years. 4 Q So, Mr. Miller would have been gone up until the 5 mid 1970's? 6 A Yes. 7 Q And where is he today? 8 A He's retired. He livesin -- I believe 9 Willoughby, Ohio. 10 Q What was Mr.Miller's first name? II A George. 12 Q And, to your knowledge, what time period was Mr. 13 Lund the manager? 14 A After Mr. Miller retired, Mr. Lund was made the IS manager. 16 Q so, he would have been the manager from the mid 17 1970's up until the early 1980's? 18 A Correct. 19 Q And where is he today? 20 A ' He's still with us, and he's the manager of the 21 technical services. 22 Q And he's in Cleveland? 23 A Yes. 24 Q What's his first name? FINCUN-MANCINI The Court Reporters 601 ROCKWELL AVE. SLUTS 505 CLSVElANQ OHO 44T14 (216)696-2272 CC**oU'9-aiCE0 *9*ns:s'' ;n gv xscs ac I A Randy, R-a-n-d-y. ; 2 Q And, Mr. Mackin would have come on the scene in i 3 the early '80's? : i A Yes. 5 Q And where is he? 6 A He's still with us. He's sales administration ! i 7 manager. i 8 Q And what is his first name? I j 9 A Joe; Joseph. 10 Q Now, how many sales correspondents and senior J11 sales correspondents would there have been within 12 inside sales at any point in time? [ j 13 A When I joined, I think I was either the sixth or ; 14 the seventh person there. And, at that time, I * 15 don't think we had a senior sales correspondent 16 position, so it was justplainsales 17 correspondents. j i \ i 18 And, then, acouple ofyears after I ! 19 started in, they instituted the senior sales 20 correspondents, and a couple of men were promoted 21 to senior sales correspondent although more people were added to it. Right now, we have a total of ! 22 23 thirteen people. 24 Q So, the number of inside salespeople would range FINCUN-MANCINI The Court Reporters 601 ROCKWELL AVE. SUITE 505 CLEVELAND OHO 44114 (216)696-2272 -"mOuTEB-ai 0E3 T9anSCSib*;Cn 9 v XSCB'SE from five to seven, to as many as thirteen? Ten to thirteen, in recent years. A few years back, it would be close to seven to nine people, tops. You mean -- could you identify who those inside salespeople would be, other than yourself and the gentlemen that you've already mentioned that were managers? Mr. Miller and Mr. Stetzel did have responsibilities, but they were the only of the managers that really had those responsibilities. Joe Mackin also started as a correspondent -- I apologize for that -- there's Bill Eckhardt; E-c-k-h-a-r-d-t, Tony Reed, R-e-e-d; do you want all of them? Yes, please. There is Jerry Paine, P-a-i-n-e. X.C. Russell. R-u-s-s-e-1-1. There's T. Wayne Vellamori, V-e-l-l-a-m-o-r-i. There's Kris Tesic, T-e-s-i-c. M.C7 Breudigam. And Randy, R-a-n-d-y, C. Ferline. There's D.W. L-a-u-t-e-r-b-a-c-h. There was C.R. Hoffman, H-o-f-f-m-a-n. There's E.J. Viancourt. There's M.A. Costa, C-o-s-t-a. There's, M.F. McKinney. There's M.S. Derrick, D-e-r-r-i-c-k, The Coot Reporters 601 ROCKWELL AVe SUIT; 505 CLEVELAND 00 (216)6R6-2272 CCmPU*ER-*iCS T9anS:s,b':C* 8V XSCP-SE 45 1 T.N. Stephanie,S-t-e-p-h-a-.n-i-c, M.A. Newman, ; [ 2 N-e-w-m-a-n. That's about all I can remember, 3 right offhand. j 4Q I take it that there was some regular turnover in 5 personnel within inside sales? 6 A Yes. 7 Q If we could, just breiflysummarize the \ 8 responsibilities of these different people, people 9 that had responsibilities that aren't -- what I am 10 interested in -- we needn't spend a lot of time 11 with it. A Phil Eckhardt is a senior sales correspondent. 12 | ! 13 He's currently in the steel group, and he handles il 14 miscellaneous steel accounts. He has, in the past ; 15 handled most of the major accounts. 16 MR. HEINTZMAN: Why don't you focuse 17 this on which of these people might have had these ! i j18 responsibilities, and they might have had 19 responsibilities for Chicago or Louisiana. ; 20 A' D.M". Reed. 21 Q Did he handle Bethlehem? A He inherited that from Mr. Stetzel. 22 ! i j23 Q Was Bethlehem Steel Corporation one of the major 24 accounts that someone would be assigned to? j FINCUN-MANCINI The Court Reporters 601ROCKWSU AVS. SUfTS 505 CtSVelANQ ChO 44114 (216)696-2272 CCv<P'wTER**.,0C0 tranSCS'P^'C'- 8 x S C S 8 E 1 A Yes. 2 Q Who took over Bethlehem at that time? ! 3 A I'm trying to remember.Mr. Paine, he wasn't \ 4 really involved. He is no longer with the 5 Company, and he didn't handle any major accounts. 6 Q What was the region? \\ 7 A It could have been a number of regions. We all i i 8 handled several areas. 1 9Q 10 11 A 12 The only areas I have any interest in is western, eastern Ohio, Steubenville and Pennyslvania. I am pretty sure he would have been on this. MR. HEINTZMAN: Just specify who 13 might have been in the Pittsburgh office at the i I 14 time. I 1 15 A Was held by Mark Caufstein. Mary McKinney, and ; i 16 Phil Eckhardt, I am sure would be involved at some 17 point in t -?.e with the Pittsburgh office. 18 Q Okay. Mr. Veliamori was not involved in any of 19 the areas that I mentioned or ma.jor accounts that 20 would have been covered in those areas? 21 A He wouldn't have handled any major accounts, but 22 he may have handled Pittsburgh, at some point in 23 time. I really can't say. 24 Q What was his basic time period he was in these FINCUN-MANCINI The Cool Reporters 601 ROCKWELL AV. SLITS 505 * CLSVELANQ OHO 44TU (216) 656-2272 CSmp"ES-a;C3 transCP'O N 0v XSCP'St 1 sales? 2A He was only in for a couple of years, but I can't 3 say when it would have been. 4 Q Before or after 1970? 5 A It would have been after 1970. 6 Q Okay. And, Mr. James? 7 A He could have handled some Pittsburgh territory, 8 at some point in time. He has been involved with 9 distributors. 10 Q So, his responsibility was mainly with II distributors of MARCO products? 12 A That's correct. 13 Q What time period would have been accompanied by 14 Mr. James working time span? IS A About 25 years, I think. 16 Q And where is he today? 17 A Right here. 18 Q Mr. Tesic? 19 A That's Ms. Tesic. She's a recent employee. She 20 has been with us a little over a year. 21 Q And Ms. or Mr. Breudigam? 22 A Breudigam; he would have handled Pittsburgh area 23 in a relatively recent period. He is also 24 relatively new. I would say three years. i FINCUN-MANCINI The Court Reporters ! I j --------------------------------- 60* ROCKWRi. AVI rn sure 505 CL6V&ANQ OHO 44714 -------------------------------------------1 (216)696-2272 cs"u'E.?-Aicer "hanscs'P* cn x s c ! s e 45 1 Q Randy Ferline? j 2 A Randy Ferline was a junior account representative. | i 3 She was only here a short period of tine and was i 4 never involved with anything. i 5 q Mr. or Mrs. Lauterbach? 6 A Dave Lauterbach is a recent employee and is a 7 junior account representative. I ! 8 Q Mr. Bahr? 9 A Mr. Bahr has been with us now 15 years. He could TO have handled the Pittsburgh territory at one time. 11 It's part of his responsibilities. 12 Q He is still in NARCO in Cleveland? 13 A Yes. 14 Q What's his first name? ^ 15 A David. 16 Q Mr. Hoffman? I j 17 A That's Miss, and she's a recent employee; just 13 going on about a year. 19 Q Ms. or Mrs. Viancourt? 20 A Viancourt, he is also a recentemployee. 21 Q Ms. or Mrs. Costa? 22 A Mark Costa has been with us fiveyears; would have 23 handled the Pittsburgh territory definitely. 24 Q So, he's still with NARCO? FINCUN-MANCINI The CoLrt Reoorterc 605 ROCKWSU AV. SUfTg 505 CLEV=LAN0 OHO 4dTU (?6) 696-2272 1 A Yes. 2 Q Mr. Willine? 3 A Mr. Willine; he has been with us five years, He 4 would not have handled Pittsburgh. 5 Q Ms. or Mrs. Suhn? 6 A Tom Suhm, is a long-time employee. He has been 7 with us, I think, 20 years; 15 at least, 15. 8 probably closer to 15. 9 Q What was his responsibility? 10 A He could have handled Pittsburgh at some point in n time. 12 Q Is he still with NARCO in Cleveland? 13 A Yes, he is. 14 Q Okay. Mr. McKinney? 15 A Ms. McKinney is a recent employee. She currently 16 handles the Bethlehem -- 17 Q Okay. Oh, and then Mr. Bruncak? 18 A Mrs. Bruncak. I'm sorry, that's Mrs. Bruncak. 19 Q You gave me the initials. You didn't tell me 20 their first names. 21 A She handles U.S. Steel, and, at one time, I am no 22 sure, she may have also handled Bethlehem Steel. 23 She would have also handled the Pittsburgh area. 24 She's a long-time employee, 30 years. She starte FINCUN-MANCINI The Coat Reporters 40! ROCKWELL Avt * surrg 505 CtSVELAJVQ OHO 44R4 (26)696-2272 TP*nSCS:Bt,Cn 8v xSC3'8 in the Pennsylvania plant. Q What is her first name? A Vonda, V-o-n-d-a. Q And she's still with NARCO in Cleveland? A Ves. Q Mr. or Mrs. Derrick? A New employee. Q D.M. Stephanie? A He would have handled the Pittsburgh area. He is no longer with NARCO, and I should know where he -- about a year ago, I think -Q How long had he been in the NARCO inside sales force? A I would say he was in with us about three years, and then, he went to another division as a serviceman. Q M.A. Newman? A M.A. Newman was a short-time employee; wouldn't have had anything to do would it. She's no longs with us. Q Okay, if you could, please explain the paper system that would have been -- strike that. Assume you have a customer who wants to buy something from NARCO. Please explain what pieces FINCUN-MANCINI The Cocrt Reporters <501 ROCXW&L AVi SUITS 505 CLSVclANQ OHO 44TU (214)696-2272 j i of paper are created as part of the sales process, : whereby a customer wants something, NARCO sells it j to them, and various paperwork is created. If you could, just walk through the process one step at a time. Currently? No, in the past. And, if there were -- if there were different j j j systems at different time periods, if you could, tell me that at the beginning, so we know what time period we are talking about. There are different systems. The way it originally was set up, when I first joined the j i i company, if we were to receive an order, we would i look to see if a quotation had been prepared, compare the order with the quotation. We would then have established, what we called at that time, a "'handwritten preliminary order." The j t I i j handwritten preliminary order would then have been processed by an order typist. That order would then have been returned for checking to the sales correspondent, who would then break up the order parts. I It was a seven-part order form. He would I FINCUN-MANCINI The Court Reporters ----------------601 ROCKWELL AV. SUITE 505 CUVSLANQ OHO <14TU ------------------------------------------- (?6) 696-2272 C3mPutC8-aiOEO 'S*nSCS'T:Cn 8v X$C3 BS 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 n 12 Q 13 A 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 Q 24 retain those copies that he required for his own j particular use. He would mail the customer an acknowledgment form. He would return the front sheet copies to the file clerk for filing. He would place the other portions of the order -- the ones that went to the plant, he would place in the mail to the plant. And, if a copy of the order was retained, it was directed to our operating department. They would look it, and either question it or discard the copy. Okay. Now, that stayed in place until we went up -- until recent years where we tried to establish f a -- we were hoping to get a customized computer order entry system. And that, essentially, would | i have been just about the same, with the exception that the order would be -- it would have been then transposed to what is a computer form type thing, | jwhich would then have been input into the system by the order typist, and the same would still follow through. When did the computerized system begin to be implemented? I assume that the old paperwork j | i j FINCUN'MANCINI The Cool Reoorten ----------------------------------601POCXWSU AVS. SjTTE SOS CtSVELANQ OHO 4404 -- (TVS) 696-2272 j -------------------------------J I 1 system no longer applied? ! 2 MR. HEINTZMAN: I object. I am not i 3 sure that those things are inclusive. iQ 5 6A When -- let me ask this: When did the computer systems begin to be implemented? j j JThere were computer systems. One currently, which 7 was in '83, and one that we had prior to that, in ; 8 '81 . j 1J 9 There was one other change, prior to that j 10 time, when we found the mailing of the plant order j forms were too slow, so we had the order copies j 11 I 12 taken and directly input, teletyped it to the 1 13 plant, and the teletypist -- the form was then j 14 changed so it fit the teletype machine, and the j 15 teletype machine would give it to the plant that 16 would distribute the order forms. j I 17 It was the same, except we didn't have to j 18 mail the order forms to the plant. 19 Before the system, is it ray understanding there 20 was an order f.orm that was created by the sales 21 force, and that order form would have been the key j 22 document that would have been sent around to the 23 different offices to make sure that the various j 24 things happened that had to happen in order to FINCUN-MANCINI TheCou? Reporters 601 ROCKWELL AVE. StfTE 505 ClSVSLANQ OHO 44TU (2k) 696-2272 i 1 make sure that the product got to the customer? 2 A (Nods head.) ] 3Q Is that order form the same thing as the greer. j 4 5A sheet? The green sheet was part of that order form. | I 6 Every order was a part of that green sheet. i 7 Q What's the difference between the green sheet ar.d ; 8 the order form? I i 9 A It is just a replica. 10 Q Oh, it is a copy? II A One of the seven copies. 12 Q NARCO's counsel has made available to me, just 13 before the deposition, a box of about seven or J14 eight inches of documents which were represented 15 to be green sheets available to NARCO with respect ! 16 to sales to Bethlehem Steel Corporation, ; ! 17 Johnstown; is that correct? i [ j18 A They are copies of the green sheets to Bethlehem 19 Steel, Johnstown. 20 (Discussion, off the record.) 21 (Plaintiffs' Exhibit 2 marked 22 for identification.) 23 Q Mr. Spahlinger, I've marked for identification as 24 Deposition Exhibit No. 2, a one-page document FINCUN-MANCINI The Court Reporters ------------------------- - 601 ROCKWELL AVS. $UTS 505 CLEVELAND OHO 441U-------------------------------- <216)496-2272 which was the first sheet among the documents produce by your counsel. Can you identify what this document is? It's a copy of the green sheet, which is a copy of a sales order. Now, on this document, this sales order would be created by someone within the sales force of NARCO? That's correct. The customer may have also sent a purchase order to NARCO, in many cases, would they not? Yes. That would be a document on the customer's stamp or letterhead saying, please sell us such and such j a material at such and such a price, and ship to such and such a location? That's correct. i What happens to the purchase orders of customers when they come into NARCO? j The purchase order- of the company would have beer, associated with what we call the goldenrod copy of the sales department order. Where would that have gone? j I As long as it was active, it would have remained TheCout Reporters 601 ROCKWELL AVS. SUTE 505 CLEVELAND OHO <M1U (216)696*2272 with the sales correspondent or the senior sales correspondent. So, the purchase order generated by the customer would have went to the sales representative, not to some central location in NARCO? No, the inside sales correspondent, not the field salesperson. So, the purchase order from the customer would have gone to someone within inside sales, in the ji corporate headquarters? That's correct. Were purchase orders from customers retained over i long periods of time? They were retained until the order was complete, and it was filed into what we call our general j i ! order file, and then, it was up, really, to the ! discretion of the sales correspondent. If he i i l wanted to keep it for more than a couple of years, j he could. If he didn't, he didn't have to. Turning to Plaintiff's Exhibit No. 2, the purchase, the sales order -- strike that. Turning to Plaintiff's Exhibit No. 2, which is the sales j order, could you explain what the first column of numbers is on this document? The Court Reporters 601 ROCKWELL AVE. SUT 505 CUVSIANQ OHO 445W (216)696-2272 _Ts.^-a.Ow 1 A Yes. On the upper lefthand corner, where it says 2 "charge", that generally -- well it did mean -- it | 3 would indicated to who it would be. There, that j 4 meant sold to. That would be the "soid to" 5 address that appears, then, in the upper lefthand 6 quadrant. I believe price -- in this particular | i 7 case, it says "special," which means there was 8 special distribution of the invoices, either at 9 the customer's request -- and it usually is at the 10 customer's request -- so that it meant that there 11 was special handling to the invoice, really. 12 If it went to the Billing Department, the j13 Billing Department would be aware of what those 14 special instructions were. And, then, the invoice : 15 could be disseminated. 16 And they wanted -- Bethlehem Steel wants | 17 to make sure that the invoice per payment is sent j 18 to the central office of Bethlehem Steel in j 19 Bethlehem, Pennsylvania, even though the product j ] j20 is being shipped to Bethlehem Steel in Johnstown, 21 Next space is "invoicesnot priced." I j22 There were invoices with no priceson it. Then i I 23 something would appear there. Since nothing was 24 there, it wasn't required. i I i i ---------- FINCUN-MANCINI The Co</t Reporters j 601ROCKW6U. AVI SUTTE 505 CLSVSLANQ OwO 44114----------------------------------------- (216)696*2272 1 The next space says, customs invoices. 2 and that referred to the invoices for the j II 3 shipments. Since that wasn't required, nothing is j 4 there. It says 1, so one copy of the bill of S lading was sent to the sold to address. 6Q Which in this case was -- 7 A Notice of shipment, again says, "special." There 8 are special instructions as to how the notice of 9 shipment were to be distributed to Bethlehem 10 Steel. 11 "Territorial Credit"; in this, it says 12 that Cleveland office was getting two-thirds 13 credit for this, and territorial department, which i 14 was our office, was getting one-third. 15' Q 16 Why would the Cleveland office have anything to do : i with a sale to Johnstown, Pennsylvania? j 17 A Within the marketing department, it was considered I 13 whether any particular accounts would become house 19 accounts. So, this sale, here, is a shipment of 20 seconds, brick seconds; They are not firsts. 21 They are at the cheaper price, for which we would 22 not give full sales credit to a sales department 23 person. Cleveland would keep two-thirds of the 24 credit, and Pittsburgh would keep one-third. FINCUN-MANCINI The Court Reporters 601ROCKWSU AVS. SUITS 505 ClSVElANQ OHO 44IU (216)696-2272 Were these territorial allegations that have something to do with compensation of salespeople or something like that? It -- yes, it was usually used for outside sales; money for outside salespeople. If you could continue. Let me correct that. The only other thing significant would be for our sales records to determine sales for a ticket or total sales for a ticketed territory marketing those. Minimum carload"; if this has been well, this was a rail shipment. It should have had a minimum carload figure in there. At that time, it could be a 1,000 pound carload. That really should be indicated in there. II Preight Rate"; that's the freight rate that applied to that system. And in the upper right-hand quadrant, they had a split there between division and plant. What they did was, really, the U.S. indicated the plant, but, so did the 60, so that was really redundant in that area, but that's the way they liked to do it at that tine. What do you mean, by division and plant? The Court Reporters 601 ROCKWELL AVE SUITE 505 CLEVELAND OHO AdTU (216)696-222 CQMuTes-AiOGS :s*ns:9'P*;:n e-^ xS=aiae 1 A The division, I assumed, really, was a different 2 way of stating the plant name. They had assigned 3 like the Mount Union plant was U.S. division. I 4 Ironton Plant would be Ironton. 5 Q You're talking about specific plants of NARCO? 6 A Of NARCO plants; that's correct. Por some reason 7 they wanted their name up there as part of the 8 division and the plant number, which was a 9 different way of stating the same plant, really. 10 I don't see why they did it. That's all. We 11 filed the form. 12 Q Did the division refer to the particular NARCO 13 plant that would have been employed, had the item ; 14 being shipped to the customer? \ 15 A That's correct. I l 16 Right underneath that there is a block 17 that says "special instructions," and these are i i 18 instructions that you associate with the plants, 19 so that the plant will understand the copies they 20 are getting. 21 In this, it indicates that a teletype was 22 sent to the company saying this was to be entered. 23 We did not want it to be complicated. At the time j 24 it was sent in, there was no statement number. At j FINCUN-MANCINI The Co^/T Reporters 601 ROCKWell AVS. SUTS 505 CLSVcLANQ CHO 44IU (Z16) 696*2272 CaM'-ir*-'*''03 :8*nSCRiBT,Cn 0 v X5C3I0E 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 Q 15 16 A 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 Q 24 that time, it would say it was going to be shipped to such and such a Bethlehem location, please prepare, be on alert to look for the order and ship it. It tells me this brick is to be shipped from stock of kiln furnace to Mr. Kurtz's letter of 6-16-50, I can't find that individual in -since that was 1950, said ship one carload immediately and balance to be shipped as released. One carload would have gone upon receipt of the order, and in accordance with instructions on the order, and the balance would be held until the client said, send me some more. It could be all of it, or a car or two. On the top, 9236 is stamp 1. What does that number mean? It just represents -- it's a random number, really. That was just the next copy -- sales order copy that was in the sequences of order that were being typed for that particular day. We used to carry'them through from No. 1 up to 10,000, and once it got to 9,999, the series started over again. Was the number, this four-digit number, assigned by the internal sales office of NARCO? FINCUN-MANCINI The Coot Reporters 601ROCKWELL. AVE. SUITS 505 OSVELANQ OHO 44H4 (216)696-2272 I A It wasn't assigned. It was just a random number. 2Q What office determined what the number would be? 3 A If it was typed from this office, it would come to 4 the Cleveland office. 5 Q And whatever the numbers happened to be, it would 6 appear on that invoice or the sales order? 7 The number had nothing to do with particular 8 customers or particular readings? 9 A It just came up. 10 Q It just came up? n A Okay. When it says, "consigned to," it would 12 indicated the customer's name and the shipping 13 address that the shipping was to be made to. 14 Q So, the area where it says, "consigned to," that 15 determines where the particular products are going 16 to be shipped? j 17 A That's correct. Then, the next line down is 18 routing, and in this case it was rail routing, 19 which would indicated that it started on the Mount 20 Union side of the Pennsylvania plant and then was 21 delivered to the Bethlehem side in Johnstown. 22 And the "sold to," indicates, really, the 23 company name that give us the purchase order. The 24 date of the shipment says we can ship at once and FINCUN-MANCINI The Court Reporters 601 ROCKWai AVS. a SUITE 505 a CLSVSlANQ OHO 44114 (216)696-2272 1 will balance as released, and that the order 2 number -- there was a repeat of this particular ! 3 sales order, and they had it retyped on at that j 4 particular spot. 5 So the order number, at the left-hand i 6 side of the document, is the same as that in the ; j 7 righthand corner. Then, the date entered has the 3 date that actually, that the order was entered 9 into with North American Refractories Company. 10 Q The Cleveland office typed up the document? 1! A No, that wouldn't have been -- it would have been 12 the date that the Cleveland office received the 13 order, which may be the same day the order was | M typed. 1 15 Then, the next space to the right is a , 16 customer's purchase order. That would generally, I 1 17 be taken off.of the customer's formal purchase I i 18 order. 19 Q So that's a number created by the customer, by 20 whatever coding system the customer used? 21 A That'scorrect. 22 Q The same as if that was their initial? 23 A Yes. 24 Q Okay. FINCUN-MANCINI The Cout Reporters 601ftOCXWSJ. AVg. $UTS 505 CtEVSiANQ OHO 4404 (216) 696-2272 A 1 A It would also give the date that the customer 2 order number was typed. 3 Q What's the difference between the customer order 4 number and the customer requisition number? 5 A Many customers will order a requisition that might 6 be from the mill, or it might be from the brick 7 shed or the brick-main, and they write down an 8 application for a continuing product. He then 9 submits -that to his particular purchasing 10 department who then takes that as the basis for 1! issuing the customer order. i: Below that area, there is a series of 13 boxes beginning with "quantity." This meant if 14 from on board at our particular plant, the IS customer accepts responsibility from that, point on 16 to delivery. 17 The.second one says, "include carload." 18 And, the next two boxes, really, meant if freight 19 was included, in the right side, one of these . 20 would have been included, and it would go "freight 21 to," and the designation would have been 22 Johnstown, Pennsylvania. 23 But, since it was denied, it did not 24 apply. "FOB" meant the customer is paying the ...... ............. FINCUN-MANCINI The Oxrr Reporter ftp! ROCXWEU. AVS SJTTS 505 QJVELANQ0*0 441U --------------------------- -(216)696*223 1 2 3 i 5 6 7 3 9 10 II 12 13 14 15 Q 16 17 IS 19 20 21 A 22 23 Q 24 freight charges; whereas, if you would check the "include carload,'* too, that means that it would have been continued, the freight shipping to a continuing location. j i ; t | i Over to the right of that, underneath the sales department instructions, it says, "prices figured on a rate of." If that had included j i j freight, then a figure would have been typed in there to tell us what that would have been. And, right below that, it says, "freight basic" and that would have 'been either said j carload or truckload. And, number of pieces of product shipped. there is a quantity, that has to be a 1 ; fI If I can stop you for just a moment. The columns that are beginning to talk about quantity and brand and description, that's referring to the particular order being shipped to the customer. What would be the different unitsthatcould appear in the quantity column? i , I For example, numbers of brick would be ir. pieces. ; And, specialty products, it wouldbe inpounds. ; So, if it is was a material that a came in a bag j or a carton or something, and it wasn't a brick, FINCUN-MANCINI TheCo^/tfteoorteo (36)696*2272 ! i ! j something that you could have counted, the unit would be in terms of pounds? Pounds. So, let's say you're shipping by air, and it's ' coining in bulk, and there is something there in j terms of numbers, but there is no unit right after ; the number. That should be interpreted as being pounds? i | Yes, but there should be an indication of a pound beside there. Okay. And the brand column; that would be the NARCO brand? That would be the NARCO brand of the system being t I ii shipped, and the description would be a further description about the particular product. i Now, in this particular case, there is an instruction by the customer's item member. That's j the customers designation; means that they are not j quite up to par, and they are getting under normal value for our product. Now, in the description product when you you have i something there as a number times a number, you're } referring to the dimensions of a particular type of block? | I 1 FINCUN-MANCINI The Coot Reporter 601POCKWSU. AVS. SUITS SOS CUEV&ANQ OHO 44tu (2%) 696-2272 1 A That's correct. 2Q That standard is for our document number. If this 3 might be a special shape, we would have had a 4 drawing set up for them, and a drawing would have j 5 appeared in this column. j 6 Q And the price? 1 ! 7A 8 The price that the customer is being charged for that particular product that we are shipping to i j ! j 9 him. 10 Q Does the unit relate to the price? 11 A Yes. j 12 Q So, if there is a number in the price column, and j 13 a number in the unit column, it's the price per j I 14 that many unit? j IS A Normally, that's the case. Sut, r see in this I 16 particular case, that, obviously, the NT is in it, . 17 which means net ton. 18 Q So, we are shipping 75,000 pieces ofbrick. We ! 19 are going to channel them on only the weight of 20 that brick, and it's going to be charged at the i 21 rate of $13.00, at that time? j 22 A Yes. That's an unusual situation. Normally, when j i 23 we charge brick, we charge either on a per j 24 thousand number of pieces, or on a per each basis, j i flNCUN-MANCINI The Cout Reoohea 6QlffOCKVvaiAve.esuTESQ5saN^lAfClOH0 4^n4 --------- (2b) 496-2272 t --! What are the columns remaining on the form? The unit is the price that, computing total price for the order. The -- we only use the net or four bits. We are no longer in that. We shut down one of our cars. It would designate the hardness, the burn of a brick. We would have been soft burn and high j burn or medium burn. j i So the burn, you would only refer to bricks, which has been exposed to a certain type of process in regard to manufacturing? We were never involved with it. It was continued long before I started with it, with the company. ! I assume that there would have been a particular j mix that was ordered. The mix number would have been placed in this, ir. this area. And, in fact, the usage of that cciumn j that would have referred to some kind of special j batch, for example, that was being-made and that batch number would be referred to as? I really can't tell on it. On the base, would have been the base price of the material. Which, it would have been our job. i j it Since, those are after work, we employ a FINCUN-MANCINI The Cout Reoorteo 601GOCKWEU. AVt SUTE 505 OSVSLANO OHO 4AM (216) 696-2272 11 shape extra that was used for special shapes. 2 The 90000 gives you the total volume of i 3 that, 100 equivalent, which is 20 percent over the 4 normal list. 5 Q And, would that be to do with the weight; it 6 relates to the weight? 7A If you have the size, so that you have a 8 particular weight factor for a particular weight. 9 you can come- up with that particular weight for 10 that date; the total the equated with, really 11 times the quantity factor. 12 Q On this particular, the 90000; what does that 13 refer to? 1.20; is that the weight at the time it 14 is being calculated? IS A No, the total weight of seven is 90000 equivalent. 16 Q What is the unit that that 90000 is in? Is it in 17 cubic inches* or what? 18 A It's what we call brick equivalency. 19 Q That's now an equivalent? 20 A Tft'At's correct. 21 Q And, by knowing that, somebody might know how many 22 boxcars might be needed for the brick, or 23 whatever? 24 A Yes. FINCUN-MANCINI TheCouT Reoorten ---------------------------------601GOCXWEU. AVS. SUITS 5C5 CLSVSIANQ OHO (216)696-2272 --------------------------- 1 Q So, that figure, that 9 inch equivalent would not ( 2 be something you could immediately convert into a 3 price, somehow? ^ 4 A No. j 5 Q I notice by looking at thisexhibit,this sales | 1 6 order, the total price that the customer is being 7 charged for this particular order does not appear 8 on the document? 9 A That's correct. 10 Q Why is that? \ i1 i i I 11 A Total price is never real-ly shown on our 12 sales orders. We have an evaluation that is shown ! i 13 on the computerized system, but more for a reason i 14 of just looking at it and knowing where the Hell 15 you have this. 16 The customer could have come up and 17 reduced the items released, or if you got the 18 first shipment and didn't like it. So, the order 19 department didn't -- it wasn'-t placed on the face 20 of the sales order. j 21 Q Just to finish this up, this document that we have ! 22 marked for Identification as Exhibit No. 2, is 23 dated 1950; correct? 24 A That's correct. FINCUN-MANCINI The Coat Reporter 601 ROCKWELL AVE. SUTTE 505 OSVSJVNQ 0*0 44H4 (216)696-2272 1 Q For how long was this particular document used? 2 A This was used -- was the type of form that was 3 used by NARCO as a sales order. It would have 4 been changed when we went to the teletyping of the j j 5 orders directly to the plant. And. I really don't ' 6 recall what that date was. > 7 Q Okay. If we can just take a moment, the box that ' l 3 we have here has the sales orders, by year and j 9 file. Could you just take a moment and verify j I ID what time period the system may have changed in. 11 A You mean -- 12 Q Mr. Spahlinger, I have a sales order in front of i | 13 me that is dated March of 1971; is that correct? \ 34 A That's correct. IS Q And that is the same form that we were talking 16 about with respect to Exhibit No. 2, which is j 17 dated 1950? 18 A That's correct. 19 Q So, is it fair to say that the form that we have 20 just'discussed in detail, that was used in 1950. 21 was the basic ordering system, at least up until 22 March of 1971, and your description of what the 23 different columns mean as to the document in 1950 24 would refer to all other computer generated forms FINCUN-MANCINI TheCourr Reoortet* 6C! ROCKWEU. AVS. SJfTS 505 OEVSLANQ QUO 441U (76)695.2272 by NARCO, at least, until January of '7l? ! You mean -- that's correct. Going through the documents that have been provided, 1971? I have another document dated October of j i !i That's correct. ; And does the October 1971 document reflect the revised system thatcame into being when you! changed the teletypingsituation? Yes, it does. j i ; (Plaintiff's Exhibit 3 marked for identification.} ! ; j ! (Discussion off the record.) i (Luncheon Recess) MR. JENNINGS: Okay. Me are back or. ' the record. . i Turning to Plaintiff's No. 3, which is the sales j i form that would be in effect up until some time ir. i 1971; what happens in a situation where the customer was ordering more than would fit on cr.e page? He would go to page 2. How would page 2 be recorded to reflect that it | | i ! j FINCUN-MANCINI The Coirt Reoorten ............ . 601ROCKWSU. AV6. e SUT6 505 CtSVRANQ OwO 441U (.2*) 6*6-2272 j I ' was page 2 of sortie other sales order? Well, under this system, things would have been -- : it would have said continued at page 2 on the bottom of the form, and on the top of the form it j would have said "consigned to" and page 2, and ! then up on the top, the number would be struck out ; of the completed sales order form, and the next number would have been substituted in it's place. Okay. Does that mean that the four-digit number ! ! i \ in the upper right-hand column of one of these order forms would be struck out because it was on page 2 and page 3? Page 4. Page 4 of some earlier order? j i 1 i That's correct, yes. It was actually the same order, but, since the I numbers had no meaning, that's why we crossed them j out. The four-digit number that went up to 10,000 on the upper right-hand corner; was that stamped on i i } I the forms? Preprinted. Ii j Preprinted. So, a clerk would have a box of then ! i somewhere, and every time one of the clerks pulledJ FINCUN-MANCINI The Coat Reooewi ------------ 601 OCXW0j.Av.e SUITS 508 OSVSlanqOmOajtu -------- (216) 696*2272 out one of those seven-part order forms, there would already be a number In the upper right-hand j corner? Correct. If we could turn to Plaintiff's Exhibit No. 3 which is a one-page document dated approximately October of 1971, could you identify what this is? This is the type of order that we had instituted to allow us to enter the order directly by teletype with our plants. And, this form has a sales order in the upper right-hand corner of the form? That's correct. And did this serve the same function as the earlier form, in that, this would have been prepared by someone with internal sales in Cleveland office, with respect to the order of some material by some customer? That's correct. In the upper left-hand corner, there, there is a logo with NARCO and what appears to be an Indian head and an arrowhead? Uh-huh. You have to say yes or no. The Cout Reoorten 601ROCKWEU. AVf. SUITE SOS ClSVElANQ OHO <UIU (?6)d96-2272 rs that a logo that NARCO used in connection with its business activities? That's correct. Does that particular logo appear on containers of NARCO products, in one form or another? If not on all, on most of them, yes. Is the logo that appears on the upper left-hand corner of Exhibit 3, a logo that's unique to NARCO? As far as I know, yes. You're not familiar with any other refractory company ever using a logo like that before? No. In the upper left-hand corner of this form, Exhibit 3, the title North American Refractories Company is listed? That's correct. Now. what does it say right below North American Refractories Company? It says division of Eltra Corporation. Does that refresh your memory as to whether or not 1 NARCO was ever operated as a division of some 1 other company? ` The Colt'5eoone 601 ROCKWELL AVE. SUTS 505 CLSVELANQ CHO 44IU (Z*) 694-2272 Apparently, it was. Do you know when NARCO became a division of Eltra i Corporation? Specifically, no. j ! Do you know approximately when it happened? | No. I can only assume. I can only make ! assumptions. MR. HEINTZMAN: you know. i Don't assume, only what j j If you could take a moment or two, explain the columns on the order form that has been marked as 1 Plaintiff's No. 3? Okay. And if there's any significant difference from what we've talked about before, if you can, explain it. I don't know, that there are any significant i j i j differences. All I know is we tried to design a j form to get.rid of some of these things we considered extraneous. "Customer No.," each customer was given a number, and that was then entered at the top of the order form. The plant that was to do the preparation and shipping is indicated in the FINCUN-MANCINI The Com Reporters 601ROCKWSU. AVS. SWTS 505 CLEVSLANQ OHO 44M (216)696-2272 1 left-hand corner, and we, again, show whether the 2 order is entered by it WX or mail? 3 Q wx? A A Teletype. But, we may have a interruption of ; I 5 teletype services, and, so, if it went out, we | 6 still wanted the orders out by mail, and we would 7 send them by mail. So, we left that on there. i 8 The "route via." indicates how the route ! 9 was to be- routed. And, in this case, it was a ! ! 10 truck shipment and McQuade was the trucker. j 11 Again, it shows the bill of lading and j i 12 how the bill of lading is to be distributed. j ! 13 Notice of shipment, again, "special." U That's how the shipment was to be distributed. 15 The code, I don't know what that meant at ail. It 16 had nothing to do with us, so it was left blank. 17 Business class; we decided to classify I IS our various customers by business type and that's j 19 what that stood for. j 20 Q When you say, "business class," are you referring | 21 to the box with the "B/C"? 22 A Yes, that's right. \ j 23 Q And, that code would be, like, steel mill or 24 aluminum plant or something like that? j j ------- FINCUN-MANCINI ! The Coot Reoortem I 6Q1 ftOCXWEU. AV. SjTTE 506 ClSVSiANQ 0*0 AAZA------------------------------------- '< <Pd)696*2T2 That's correct. And, then, the territory credit indicates how the territory credit for this particular order was to be distributed ar.d the l number of the invoices, and who was to receive the j invoice. j In this case, copies were to be sent to the "sold to" address shown in the "sold to" space ' on the order form. Salesman's purchase number; changed our practice of having sales order numbers there, and what we did there is we insisted that our sales offices send to us a preliminary order with an order number on it, which they maintained the logs of, and they would institute this particular order number. So, beginning with this newer form, the sales order number, was created by particular offices? Let- me correct that -- that's not correct. We did allow.that; for particular offices to do that. This one indicates that this was entered by our Cleveland location, and that's why the "C" is there. We kept/of log of orders by numbers ar.d these would be assigned, again, on a random basis, but it would have to be -- the customer's name The Cout Reporter 401 ROCKWS.L AVH. a SUTE 505 a aeVcLANQ OHO A4tU (26) 696-2272 ! would have to be logged beside the customer's 2 order on the log we kept. It was a legal pad of 3 paper, and we put the numbers out and listed them i 4 on there. And then the "sold to" is underneath | 5 that. 6 And, in the left-hand side, you have j 7 "consigned to," and which indicates, again, the I a consign to and where they're to be shipped to. j 9 And. in this case, it is Mechanics Station Truck 10 Stop 173, in Johnstown Pennsylvania, and the date. 11 This meant that it would be shipped any time 12 within that particular month. J j 13 Q If you will, continue explaining the columns on j i 14 this form which has been marked as Plaintiffs' 3. s 15 A On the date entered, again, is going to be the i 6 date that the order was entered by Cleveland, and, j 17 then, the customer's purchase order number is to 18 the right of that. 19 Customer Requisition number is 20 immediately to the right of that. Customer order 21 date, and by this one, it indicates that it was by j 22 phone on the date preceding our October 4th. 23 Requested routing was the one if they had 24 a special carrier that they wished us to use. FINCUN-MANCINI rheCourfteoorfe* 601ROCKWSU. AVS. SUITE 505 CtVS_ANQ OHO 447-1 (216)696.222 I 1 Customer order -- release date -- was If they call 2 up and say, I want you to release such and such 3 material. If they have a release number that they 4 wanted associated with that, that would go on the j 5 next line down release. [ I 6 "Terms" is 30 days, Womelsdorf. That's 7 our manufacturing and shipping plant. Three boxes . ! 8 indicated whether or not they included freight. I 9 Then, an "x" would have been placed in this box, j ! 10 or in the case of the next two relate to freight j 11 terms. In this, it is XX or collect and the "X" ! 12 indicates it's collect shipment. The space next j 13 \3 14 indicates the minimum weight and also the freight that the customer's charge to the contact. 15 Right underneath that, there's the 16 columns for "quantity ordered," "name," 17 "description," "size," and our drawing. You 18 understand the description column allows for all 19 ,of that. , i 20 The equivalent per piece was in the next j i 21 column, the total, then next was our published 22 base at that particular time. i 23 Q What do you mean, by published base? 24 A We had a published base price list. ) FINCUN-MANCINI The Court Reoortea 601 ROCKWfU, AV SITS 505 CiSVSIANCt OHO 44514 (Zb) 696*272 What does it mean to have them under that base column? ; It just indicates the base that was in effect for ! that time. For example, here there is a No. 715, and then a period after it? That would have meant that that base was 715 per j ! j i j I j thousand, at that time. Was base price normallyreferred to in terms of 1 j j thousands? Yes, or net tons, if it was a specialty product. If it were a brick, it would be a price per thousand, per thousand brick? Per thousand 9-inch equivalent. i i Or, if it was another material that was packed, j for example, then the number would be numbers per? j Net ton. Net ton? Then, next is the for percentage extra, arJ. then the pricing that would be charged to the customer, and the unit of measure that was being used for the price. Then the bottom; is there any special instructions? FINCUN-MANCINI TheCout Reoorten 601 GOCXWSll AVS. sun 505 OSVSLANQ OHO A4TU (2k)66-2272 Right. The bottom is special instructions for the billing department or anyone, if you wanted to give special instructions, too. Now, the form that we have in front of us, which has been marked as Exhibit 3 would have come into effect sometime in 1971? That's correct. For how long a time period was this form used to ii l ji i i I i t i i reflect orders of material? As far as I can recall, it would have been used right up until we tried to get into our computerized order entry. That would have been in about 1981? '81. So, any of these sales order forms that we would ! look at from 1971 until 1981, would be interpreted | in the same way that you've explained with respect j i to Exhibit 3? j Correct. Now, what would be the practice if more than cr.e j I page was necessary to record all of the materials that were being bought by a customer using a form No. 3, that's been marked as Exhibit 3? Again, we would have had the same sales order j i j | j FINCUN-MANCINI The Coot Reoorteo 601ROCKWSU. AV6 SUTTE 505 CISVSIANQ CHO 44!U (2k) 696-2272 \ i number on the second page. That would continue or.' all of the numbered pages. Then, you would have been on the "consigned to" -- you would have beer, on page 2, page 3, page 4. j Q You mentioned that in the upper left-hand corner [ I of Exhibit 3 there was a customer number assigned to particular customers? A That's correct. Q When did that -- did that start in 1971, or had : i that been done in connection with sales prior to | 1971? A I really don't remember -- I don't remember. 1 Q Prior to 1981, was there any automatic data processing of any kind in connection with sales information? A You mean any computerization? i Q Yes. A No. Q Now, the order forms that would be filled out by the sales department; those forms were not going to customers as part of the purchasing process, were they? j I i ; A This was one set of the order forms. As I indicated, of the seven-part form, that was our i FINCUN'MANCINI The Coot Recover* <50i Rocxwe.'. Ave. sura 505 cisvslanq c+o uu (?6)6?6-22?2 t ormal order acknowledgment form, which was sen 2 to .the customer, unless they sent us specific i 3 instructions not to send it. 1 A Q So, customers on occasion, would regularly receive | II 5 copies of these order forms as a way of j ' 6 acknowledging that they had been received and were : i 7 being processed by NARCO. But, in some cases if j 8 they didn't want them, they wouldn't get them? j 9 A Unless they specifically instructed us not to mail 10 them, we would mail them. II Q Oid NARCO have relationships with some customers 12 whereby there would be blanket purchase orders or 13 annual agreements as to sales, whereby the ! 14 customer would already have a pre-existing 15 arrangement, and all they would have to do is 16 contact NARCO to release a certain quantity cf \ 17 something according to a previously arranged sales j 18 arrangement? .19 A Yes, there were some, but relatively few, to be 20 honest. We didn't want it. We would rather 21 manufacture the specific order. 22 Q To the extent that there were these broader 23 purchasing arrangements, how would they be handled 24 differently, if at all, with respect to the order ' FINCUN-MANCINI The Court flepows 601GOCKWSU. AVi SUTS 505 OfiV-LANQ OHO 44*4 (216)696-2272 documents? Actually, they wouldn't have been handled differently. The blanket order would have beer, made up on a specific sales order, such as this and marked blanket order, and then it would have | been filed away, really. And then any time that j they wanted to release against it, we would really: i enter*a new order to actually create manufacturing! I for that particular product. Now, the sales order form would have been the document to get the actual shipment of the material going on its way to the customer? j That's correct. > What happened to the sales order forms after the material has been shipped to the customer? ! Again, it's going to -- I say sales order forms. I : am going to have to ask you which part? The portion of the form that would have been created in, or received by, the central sales (( office in Cleveland -- I think you referred to it before as a green sheet. i Green sheets, right. As I said before, we get -- j the sales correspondent really had three copies of j it. The green sheet, itself, would have been The Co*/t Reporter* aoi ftocxweu avs. surrs sos clevrang oho mm (216)696-222 !i i 2| 3i I 4 5 6 7 8 9Q 10 n 12 13 14 A 15 16 17 18 ? 19 Q A Q A 20 21 22 23 q 24 going from the sales correspondent, and it would go into the sales admin.jtration or the manager cf the inside sales department at that particular time for his review, and he would keep a running tally on a day-to-day basis. And, from that, it would then go back to the file clerk and be filed into our central files, green sheet files. Okay. So, the green sheet copy of the sales order form, after it has been reviewed by the appropriate people within the internal sales office, would go to the central files for record keeping? i i That's correct. Those central files are located in Cleveland? Yes; that's correct. How are those files organized in Cleveland? They are organized, we have certain -- actually, it is by date, with the customer, alphabetically. We would have special files set up there for the major accounts for any complicated enough, more than one folder could be created. i So, the the green sheets would have been filed by the customer, and within a customer's file they . FINCUN-MANCINI The Coot Qeocrtw* 60) ROCKWELL AV& a SUITE 505 CLSVSLANQ OHO 44TU (76)696-2272 would be filed by date? That's correct. For what time period -- strike that. What time period of records are still maintained of these \ green sheets that were completed by the sales? Well, from what I can examine in searching the i fl files, we go from sales as early as 1941- up until I the present time. ! ] Are those files of sales records still kept in the! Cleveland office? Yes, they are. And where are they located? In a file room on the 9th floor, adjacent to the j ] j ! 1 sales department, inside the sales department. Do you know if any of those records that are maintained in that 9th floor file room have ever ! been destroyed pursuant to any record destruction j policy? It's not our policy to destroy those records. j Thdse are important to us, and we tend to keep them. So, to the best of your knowledge, the records of historical sales of North American Fefractories Company are complete and are in existence, as far The Court Reoorten 601ROCXWSX AVS. SUTs 505 CiSVElANQ 0*0 44114 () 696-2272 1 2| A 3Q 5 6A 7Q 8 9A 10 11 Q 12 !3 U 15 16 A 17 18 19 Q 20 2! A 22 Q 23 24 A as you can go back to, 1941? As far as I can see. You don't have personal knowledge of what the record keeping practices were, specifically, as to; v` the materials from 1941 to 1951? j j That's correct. I What leads you to believe that they are complete for the time period of 1941 to 1971? Simply because we've never ever had an occasion for anyone to say to us we left them out. Okay. And. in the case of a customer that has, i i i \ j for example, more than one steel mill, let's say US Steel, for example, that has steel mills all over the place; are the sales files organized by plant or just by customer? It's going to depend on the customer and the type of business.we do with him. But, if he is in jurisdiction we are going to do it by plane. Are the sales records for US Steel organized by i plant or by US Steel? US Steel is organized by plant. J | And are there any central files for US Steel that J aren't organized just by plant? ' None that I know of. J FINCUN-MANCINI The Cot/t Reporter 401ROCKWEU. AVS. SJTE 505 CLEV6UUQ OHO ute (2*6)496-2272 MR. HSINTZMAN: You're calking juse plant only? Are the sales records that we have been discussing on the 9th floor file room records that are in your Jurisdiction? Yes, they are. You have signed an affidavit indicating that, to the best of your knowledge and belief, there were no sales of anything to the Johnston works at US Steel. Please explain for me, the process you went by to come to that conclusion. I didn't recall any, from a personal view. Secondly, we went through all of the -- a sheet and could find none. And, then, third of all, I went to a veteran employee of NARCO, and she also worked here, with you, and the Baytoury plant, and if anyone would be aware of a sale in to US Steel., she would be one person outside of most who might have knowledge off it. And she could not -- Is there -- is this any US Steel in Cochocton? No. You obviously didn't find a folder with anything The Coot Reoorten 401ROCKWELL AVE. SUTE 505 CLEVELAND ChO AATU (216)694-2272 in it for Johnstown, because you could find r.o folder; is that correct? No. I said I went through the entire US Steel j i ! 1 I file, sheet by sheet, just in case anything got misfiled. Now, is it fair to say that most of the purchases by US Steel for plants around Pittsburgh within j 100 miles of purchase were from the central office j down in Pittsburgh. I am sure you meant central purchasers, as opposed to some purchasing agent at some specific plant? Most. I would say, yes, that's true. From your experience with the Pittsburgh purchasing office, when US Steel purchased materials, did they always specify where it was i j \ to be kept, or did they later make sure it went to j where they wanted it to? They always refer to a specific location. j I never j heard of US steel having a -- anything. US Steel, Johnstown had a display for refractory products. Did you ever hear of why you never made any sales to Johnstown? MR. KEINT2MAN: To US Steel? TheCout Reporters 601 ftOCKWSU AVs. stirs 505 OiVSlANQ OMO 441U (216)696-2272 A To US Steel. It is -- only thing I ever heard not specificly related to her, but to Johnstown Q I'm sorry, I'm confused by your answer. It see you started to say something. * A To US Steel -- there was a expansion between US Steel and North American Refractories, and for many years we didn't do any business with US Steel. Q So, whatever the reason is, to the best of your knowledge and belief, North American Refractor:? Company never sent anything of any kind or significance to them, for which records were destroyed? A Yes. Q Maybe you already answered this, and I apologize for it, but if I am, if you wish to make a statement? A It is because we have never had any kind of sear or destroying or throw anything out. The record on the green sheets are just too valuable. There are some shapes, for instance. are not ordered, too, on a timely basis, and I c think of a real situation where a man called me from New England. And, going back to about the The Cout fteoorten 601 ROCKWELL AVI SITE SOS OJVsLANQ C0 4412 (256)696-2272 Are you familiar with the green sheets that were brought here, today? Yes. Is there any other record? Earlier, you mentioned that a log was maintained of sales order numbers that would request the customer name after the sales order number. For how long a period of tine was a log of that nature maintained? Well, as I said, it was written on a legal size pad really in pen, and we just kept it on a continuing base. Are any of these logs still in existence, for areas, prior to 1961? So this thing indicated -- there was a running log. And is there any log, or compilation of any kind that records -- records is not. the best word that relates to sales -- service orders from customers for any time period over 'SI** to -- so, there is no way to what is on the historical fi is some receipt that elimlna the hard copy? HNCUN-MANCI The Coot Reooften 601GOCXWEU AVS. SUTe 505 CtEV&A (216) 696*2272 co-ure-A.seo 'banscs'* : 1V xs:'8E 1 A That's correct. 2Q 3 4 So, if anyone had a question about the sales, the' would actually get to that through the vendor. What tine periods are encompassed, based on the 5 documents that have been provided to me today? 6 A I'm sorry. I didn't hear you. I tried to get 7 them all the way up to today. 8Q From a brief review of the documents, it's clear 9 they begin in 1951? Were there any documents 10 found that applied to any time period before 19SQ 11 A For a particular -12 Q For Bethlehem Steel, Johnstown? 13 A I would say, no, if they aren't working there. U Q Have you reviewed these documents at all, or were 15 they done under someone? Who actually did the 16 work of reflecting these? 17 A They just went to work. And, I also had some 18 volunteers helping on that. 19 Q Other than the customer's files with the green 20 sheets in them, do you maintain anyother 21 historical files? Are there any kind of document 22 relative to that; relative to relationships that 23 NARCO may have had with US Steel in '79 that are 24 generated and that relates to current sales? FINCUN-MANCINI The Cout Reporter 601SOCKW6U. AVE. SUTg 505 S CUVpjVjQ OK) 44(!fl (216) 696*2272 And, those marketing records; did they encompass -- we are talking about just recently or are they kept for previous years? They are kept. Are they specific; for particular customers, or are they reports that aren't sent to the customers? We have some that are titled to some specific customers. Did you indicate that sale by plant? Whether or not -- MR. HEINTZMAN: By plant, do you m a plant to which the product was sent, or the plant that manufactured it? I mean the plant to which the material is sent. Just so I'm clear, are there any reports earlie than 1980, that recorded, in some summary fashi sales of particular products to -- No. Did NARCO prepare, on a regular basis, some sor of an annual record of sales to a particular customer? I would like to know what was sent t particular truckers over the year? Yeah. The Cour Reoorteo <501ROCXWSU. AVS. a SUITE 505 CLSVSLANO OHO 44IU (76)696-2272 **-- *.<**.' sjsi-;n a* i S Z * a I Q What's that record called? 2A It's a summary report of some kind. 3 Q Who generates that? 4 A Billing. 1 ! 5 Q What office, then in NARCO deals with billing of a i j 6 customer for material that has been shipped? i 7 A Our billing department. 8 Q Is that located in Cleveland? Presumably, the j i 9 billing department creates invoices that are sent j 10 to a customer for purchase, has it's own j 11 recordkeeping process. Have you checked to see 12 what the record was with the billing department as 13 to invoices? 14 A Yes, I have. : 1 IS Q And what is their record keeping? 16 A '58. 17 Q Do you have any historical records to your ! 18 knowledge? 19 A No. 20 Q- Is that something you checked? j | j 21 A Yes. 22 Q Do they destroy the records? ^ II j j 23 A My days are over, but now onlywith the -- after j i 24 five years. j j ---------- FINCUN-MANCINI The Court Reoonem i 6013CCKW3J. AVS. suit SOS CtSVSLANQ 0*0 44M---------------------------------- --1 (2*) 696-2272 - * d <a.;di 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 3A 9Q 10 A 1! 12 Q 13 14 15 16 A 17 Q 18 19 20 A 21 Q 22 23 24 Maybe I'm confused. The billing department; their ; invoices, after 5 years, are physically destroyed, i They are not sent elsewhere for storage. Who was in the billing department that would be knowledgeable about the billing system, and that would be familiar with the particular period of ; j ! 1 ; time. T. J. Walters. j Do they have a computerized system? No, since we went on this computer system, it's an order entry driven system. Just so I'm clear, records that are maintained under your custody and control of the sales j orders, to the best of your knowledge, do those encompass all sales? ] 1 Ves. So, if a customer ordered, it would be written iiJ1 ] as -- it would have been -- created a sales order, and a copy of that order will be in the file? i j Yes. I'm glad. {Plaintiffs' Exhibits 4 and 5 marked for identification.) | I ij FINCUN-MANCINI The Coat Reporters ------------ <501 rJOCKW&L AVE SuTTc 505 OJVELANQ OHO 4404 (216) 696*2272 ..... ! j * -9 ' 9 1Q I have a one-page document dated approximately 2 February 4 of 1970, and it's a or.e-page document 3 and, also a document which has been marked for 4 identification as Plaintiffs' Exhibit 5. It's a 5 one-page document. And, I would like to show you 6 this, and if you can identify those as typical of 7 invoices that would be sent by NARCO to a 8 customer, in text. 9 A They look typical to me. I would have to say yes. 10 Q I'm not asking you anything about the specific 11 materials that were sold as to those invoices. My 12 question is that the kind of form NARCO used to 13 move by its particular sales, these NARCO forms 14 that we have in front of us, Exhibits 4 and 5? 15 A Yes. 16 Q The oneotherquestion I havewith respect to 17 Exhibits 4 and 5. The invoicesthemselves do not 18 appear to record any locations of the order r.umoer 19 that was created by NARCO internally. 20 To the best of your knowledge. North American 21 Refractories Company has made sales within the 22 States of Ohio and Pennsylvania, and throughout 23 the course of it's attendance? 24 A Yeah. The Cout Reoorteo 401R0CKW8J.AVS SUITS 505 eOSVSLANa OHO 44H4 Since you have been with NARCO in 1961. has NARCO ever acquired any other companies that have seer, in the business of the manufacturing of refractories or insulation materials of any kind? Yes, but whether or not -- whether you would say NARCO did it -- I'm trying to think. Can't think of it right now. Would this be after '79? I believe so. Before 1979 , can you tell the aquisitior. of the Company? No. Soy, of all the problems I had today. I can't remember the name of it. I guess I was glad to get rid of it. In any case, sometime after 1979 -- What kind of factories are we talking about? Did they make some special products? Can you remember the name of the company? MR. HSINTZMAN: We will provide that. It's not correct, but I was just giving it to you. Anyways, there was one factory or a series of factories, and I think it was three to five years, and then, that factory was sold to someone else? Yes. Allied had the business then. The Court Reporters <501 aocKwai avs. $ute $os osvslanq oho (216) 696-2272 fit * a ^ 3 3 1 Q Mho was it sold to? 2 A I'm not sure. 3 Q Was it operated as part of NARCO operations? 4 A Yes. 5 Q Was it it's name changed? 3 6 A No, not at that time. It was changed afterwards. 7 Q And where is that located, approximately? 8A I've never been there, so I can't say. 9 Q This second acquisition by Allied was the Gladder. 10 McDear. division? 11 A That's right. 12 Q When did that take place? 13 A It would be around '81, I think. I'm really not U sure. 15 Q What was your acquirement. 16 A It acquired some mining property and a sales 17 structure on the west coast, and I believe there 18 were four manufacturers. 19 Q What kind of products, roughly, did they make? 20 A They made fire fingers. 21 Q Did those assets come to be deliberated on during 22 deliberations? 23 A Valley Mineral Products. 24 Q They are now referred to as Valley Mineral FINCUN-MANCINI The Coat Reporter '601E0CXWSU.AVS sate 505 CUVciANQ OMO 44iu------------------------------------- (74) >96-2272 -*ns:s S"' * a c * a c 1 Products. Do you know the reason they were 2 required to be divested? 3 A The. FDA made them. It was part of a -- tr.ey ha A to do with getting rid of mineral products. 5 Q At any time, to your knowledge, did NARCO or an 6 of its parent companies ever set up any substan 7 and just leave them? 8 A No. 9Q Do you have any knowledge as to whether or not 10 of North Cost Products ever contained asbestos 1! fiber? 12 A No. 13 Q So, if I were to ask you, can you name one prod M of NARCO that contained asbestos fiber, you wou 15 have no idea? 16 A I wouldn't have the slightest idea. 17 Q Do you know whether NARCO ever got involved in 18 - sail of asbestos fiber? 19 A Not to my knowledge. 20 Q- You're not aware of any? Aspart of NARCO's 21 business operations, have they ever operated sa 22 quarries or sand operations. 23 A You mean, what were the nature of these 24 operations? FINCUN-MANCINI The Court Reoortea 601 POCXW8U AVS. SUITE 505 e OSVElANQ OHO 44M <216)696-2272  J --- *9asS:s - ^ 8 ^ xs 9C 1 i 2 > i 4 Q A Yes. The quarry, I think -- I really don't know the name of it, I know it was located near Mount Union, Pennsylvania. 5 Q Do you know approximately when that quarry would 1 6 have been in operation? 7A No, I don 1t. ; 8Q 9 Was this operation sc -`thing that was early in your career or -- ! 10 A I was never involved with anything to do with the 11 quarry, so I really had no reason to be aware of j 12 it, but, that it was being sent to our Mount Union j 13 Plant. i ` *' 3 14 Q You don't recall various grades of it as being a '15 problem? 16 A No. Silica bricks, yes. But, not Silicon. .. ) 17 Q Please identify the manufacturing plants ofRanoo. | j 18 A Current? 19 Q Let's start with when you started, in 1964? t 20 A Rogton, Ohio, and there was our Dover Plant, lI ! i 21 Dover, Ohio. And, there was Curwensville. 22 Q How's that spelled? I 23 A C-u-r-w-e-n-s-v-i-l-l-e. 24 Q That's Pennsylvania? | | FINCUN-MANCINI The Court Reoortea 601 (JOCKWSU. AV surrs 505 OEVSIANQ CMO 44TU (Zfc) 696-2272 1 A Pennsylvania. : Q Mount onion, Pennsylvania, Woneisdorf, 3 Pennsylvania, Farber, Missouri, and then, we adds 4 White Cloud, Michigan. And, then the plants 5 currently at the west coast which would be Renton 6 Oregon, and Indian Hill, California. 7 Q Are there any other plants that you can recall 8 that NARCO has operated since 1981? 9 A Yes, the Williams Grove Plant products, Williams to Grove, plant. 11 Q Where was that located? 12 A Williams Grove, Pennsylvania. 13 Q Do you know if there were any plants that N'ARCC 14 operated during -- for any significant period of 15 time, say in the 40's or '50's? 16 A There were several. There was Queens Run. 17 Q What state? 18 A That's Pennsylvania. 19 Q And, I think it's Elk, but whether or not -- if i l 20 there was a second part of that, that was in 21 Pennsylvania. Also, those are the only I can i 22 recall, and that was as a matter of hearsay. 23 Q Where was that near? Where was the Elk plant 24 near? FINCUN-MANCINI The Com Reporters 601 ROCXWai AVS SUITS 505 OEVSUANQ 0*0 44T14 (216)696-2272 1 A I have r.o idea. 2Q The Ironto.n, Ohio, plant that was operated pre- 3 1961. 4 A Yes. 5 Q Is that still in operation? 6 A No. 7 Q When did that stop being part of NARCO, or when 8 did it shut down? 9A 10 11 12 We had a fire in there. I think it was 1975 or thereabouts, and it was shut down as an operati plant at that tine and became a warehouse. This property has since been sold. 13 Q When was it sold? U A Just last year, I think. The Irontor. Plant had IS been a manufacturing facility for at least a 16 couple of decades before the fire. 17 Q And without giving the product names, what was 18 basic type of products that were made at the 19 Ironton, Ohio plant? 20 A Fireproof. 21 Q Were other things manufactured, other than brie 22 A Yes, there were specialtyparts. 23 Q What do you encompass bythe term, "specialty 24 products?" FINCUN-MANCINI The Coot Reoorten 601GOCKWSX AVS. SUITS 505 CISVSLANQ OHO 4474 (216)696-2272 . -> wcz - 3 xs: sc .i 1 Mortars, refractories, plastic materials, ar.c 2 gur.r.ite granite mixes. 3 When you use the term gunr.ite mix, are you 4 referring to any material that's used for a 5 refractory purpose that's shot through a gun or 6 are you using it in a more narrow purpose? 7 I am asking you what do you mean, by using the S term gur.r.ite mix? 9A It's just the material that's shot through a gun. ' j 10 Q 11 So you're not limiting it to any subset of i materials. You're just using the term gur.r.ite mix i 12 as a term to apply to something that is shot 13 "> M through a gun and shot for refractory purposes. The reason I asked that is because this 15 is a product that some companies make that uses a 16 tar base that's gur.nite sold under the name of 17 gur.r.ite and you're not using the term in tha" same ; 18 sense; you're using it to mean any refractory ; 19 product shot through a gun? j 20 What was the time period of the Dover, 'j i i 21- Ohio, plant? j 22 A 23 24 That was closed down. about 1965. Maybe it that time. I'll have to guess now, was '66. And it was sold ; i at : | FINCUN-MANCINI The Coot Reporter* 601ROCXWSU AVS. SUITE 505 OEVELANQ OHO UU (216)496-2272 Q Was it sold to some other refractory company? 2A 3 No. It was closed as ar. operating unit and the land was sold off. 4Q Had that Dover. Ohio plant been manufacturing 5 refractory parts for at least 20 years before it 6 was closed down? 7 A Yes. 8 Q What was the basic product line made at the Dover, 9 Ohio plant? 10 A 11 Q 12 13 A 14 Q Fire brick. Did the Dover plant also make some specialty materials? Not that many of them. Okay. So, did Dover, Ohio just make brick? 15 A Just brick. 16 Q What time period was the Curwensvi1le, 17 Pennsylvania plant in operation? 18 A It's still in operation on a limited basis. And 19 whether or not -- how it started, that's long 20 before I went in. 21 Q What was the basic product line of that plant? 22 A Fire, plain. 23 Q Did it just make bricks, or other things? 24 A Brick and specialties. fll.' FINCUN-MANCINI The Cou^ Reporters 401GOCXWSU AVS. SUTE 505 CLEVclANQ ChO 44IU (216)696-2272 1Q 2 3A 4 5 6Q 7 8A 9Q 10 A 11 Q 12 A 13 Q 14 A 15 16 Q 17 A 18 19 20 A 21 A 22 Q 23 A 24 Q What was the tine period of the Mount Union Pennsylvania, plant? It was in operation when I joined the corr.par. Again, I don't know when it started up, and it is still in Pennsylvania. Was it in operation at least a decade or two before 1961? Yes. What was its product line? Fire brick, Silica brick. Did they also make specialties? Only they had two brands of cements, I think What was the time period of this? They started in operation again before I joi: North American, and they are still in operat Did that plant begin long before 1961? No. I don't think it was long before 1961. don't know, but it was relatively new, as I understand it. What was its product line? Basic brick, using the technical refractory ter Did that plant make any specialty products? Very few. What was the time period of the Farber, Missour FINCUN-MANCINI The Court Reporter 601SOCKWEU Ave SUITE 505 CLEVELAND OHO 441U (76)696-2272 plane? A Again, that was ir. operation before I started it's still in operation. Q What was its product line? A That plant manufactured products that would.-.1 shipped to Western Pennsylvania. Q Was the Farber plant in existence long before 1961? A Yes. As to the White Cloud, Michigan, this i new thing for any of us -- 10 years c'.d, and looking -- I am looking now -- basic. Q Havethey made specialties? A No. Q So, they are just brick, to the best of your knowledge? A They are just brick. Q The -- when did the West Coast plants that yc mentioned come into part of the operation? A Again, I would have to guess. I don't knew, either. Well, he has called you three or fou times this week and he is in Indian Hill, California. The Williams Grove clay products plant was acquired sometime around 1961, or It was later than that. FINCUN-MANCINI The Court Reporters (SOI ROCKWSl AVS Suits 505 dEVSLANQ oho -14iu (216) 696*2272 Do you know, was it shut down or sold? It was shut down. I don't know if they ever sold the property. And, before 1961. there was a plant in Queens Run, ; California? Yes. We had a plant in Ashland. A plant in Ashland? Ashland, Kentucky. When did that plant become part of the concoction? I don't know. what's on it? ') ! I don't know. So, the Ashland, Kentucky plant would have been stopped sometime around the early 1960's. So. were there any other manufacturing plants that you can think of, other than what we have talked about? The only one I can think of is the one on a limited basis in Canada; Caladon, Ontario. Canada. Did- NARCO or any of its parent manufacturing plants or the different manufacturing plants that ! you've identified -- were any of those plants organized plants as far as organized by the steelworkers? FINCUN-MANCINI The Court Reoorten 601 POCKW&l AV5. SUITS 505 OSV&IANQ OHO 44114 (216) 696*2272 1 A I don't know. 2 q Were any of them steelworker plants? 3 A Yes. I know there are at least one or two of 4 them. 5 Q Do you know if any other union, other than the 6 steelworkers ever represented any of them? 7 A NO. 3 Q So, the steelworkers, is the only one. 9 Other than the manufacturing plants, I'm assumi to that NARCO had various -- is the purchasing 11 department located in Cleveland? 12 A Yes. 13 Q And has it been in Cleveland ever since you 14 started with the company? IS A Yes. 16 Q Who is up in Pennsylvania? 17 A A fellow by the name of Joe Lewis. 13 Q What is his title? 19 A I believe it's purchasing manager. 20 Q How long has he been with the company? 21 A I have to guess. I am not sure, maybe 15 years 22 better. 23 Q Does the billings department maintain the accou 24 payables records, or do you have a separate FINCUN-MANCINI The Coti? Reporters 401 Rocxwai Avi xite 505 aev&ANQ oho aau (214)496-2272 CSmbv. 'E9.*,53 'S.vscaii-;* qv xscasi accounts payables? We have a separate accounts payables. The billing department sends cut the bill, and the accounts payables makes sure that this, essentially gets paid? (Shakes head.) Accounts payable pays the bills which are billed. So, I'm sorry -- the billing department sends out the bills to the customers. The accounts payables makes sure that when somebody who works at NARCO that-- that's who we need to go see; Kor.opsky. How long had he been the top manager in that department? He is going to move? Yes. I would say only 10 years. With respect to the records that are kept or. the green sheet, the green sheet -- has any document of any kind ever been prepared with respect to ail the customers that you have or all the records that you have on them? No. So, you can't pull a folder out that will deduct those that are via Pennsylvania. How many filing cabinets of records are covered? To what extent? TheCovrr Recovers 60i Rocxweu Ave. suits sos cuv&anq oho <wtu (216)696-2272 c2*-'wTe9-AiseD SnSC5'* C 9* XSC^'SE q Earlier, you mentioned an individual that was ir. inside sales and dealt with the distributors of 1 3 ' Airco Products? 4 A Ves. i 5 Q To what extent has NARCO sold it's products 6 through distributors as opposed to selling it 7 directly to customers? ! i j 8 A That'sa very minor part of our business. 9 Q Can you give me some estimate as to volume of j ii j 10 sales, 10 percent of sales or 5 percentage of Jj 1 1! sales? | l 12 A I would say at the present it is about probably 4 ! 13 percent of sales, or less. ! M Q Four percent, now? 15 MR. HEINTZMAN: He said 4 percent 16 when he left. ; 17 A I have to say that when I started with the company j i 18 it had to be less than that. And it probably has j j19 gone up since then. Really, on a per annum basis 20 it" Is hard for me to estimate. 21 Q In any case for all purposes that you're aware of. 22 distributors probably have sold less than 523 percent of the total amount of sales? 24 A Yes. I I FINCUN'MANCINI The Court Reoorren 601 ROCKW8.1 AVS. SUITS 505 CL5VSUU>C OHO 44TU (216)696-2272 Q Were there any distributers in NARCO products located in the west Pennsylvania area? A There were a couple. The only one tnat I ' .7. reall aware of is the HR Curry Company. Q And where are they located? A In the Pittsburgh area, but I don't knew the exact time. Q For what tine period, roughly, has HR Curry distributed your products? A I would say about '65 or '66; somewhere around there. Q So, when NARCO sold something to HR Curry Company, generally, it would have been shipped, and you would have had no knowledge as to whether -- did HR Curry have the exclusive rights to sell Airco products? A Not as far as I am aware. Q So, to the best of your knowledge H.R. Curry Company can sell whatever they sold. MR. HEINTZMAN: Objection. That's not what he said. Q Were there any limitations in your department? A The limitations that would have been placed would have been that during the negotiations, and it riNCUN-MANCINI The Cotrr Reoorten (501B0CKW6U. AVS. SUITS 505 C.V;LANQ OHO 44M (216)696-2272 1 2Q A 4 5 6Q 7 8A 9Q 10 A 12 Q 13 UA 15 Q 16 A 17 18 19 Q 20 21 22 A 23 Q 24 would have been expressed. Was US Steel considered a z.ajcr consumer si NARCO? HR Curry would not let me sell, correct. You always have your input, and they will make a whole drink of nothing, but then give it to you. Would this understanding or limitation be put in writing., as part of some distributor agreement? I have no idea. You don't know whether it would have been -Generally, it would be put in a written agreement i or have just been a gentleman's understanding. Were there any other distributors of NARCO products in western Pennsylvania area? Not that I know of. What about the state of West Virginia? None of West Virginia, sir. Eastern, Ohio, Steubenville, -- no, the only one -- there is nothing in that area at ail. Were there any distributors of NARCO products that weren't located in West Pennsylvania. I am saying the same question with respect to -- i Allen Refractories. So, Allen Refractories Company, in Columbus, Chic was a distributor of NARCO Products. And, if they : riNCUN'MANCINI The Coat Reoorten dCi ROCKWS.L ave. SUTS SOS ClSVsLANQ C0 44m (216)696-2272 would have had the opportunity to sell, for instance, in eastern Ohio, or. West Virginia MR. HEINTZMAN: I an going to object to this. But in any case. Alien Refractories nay have had products. Do you remember what time period was Alien Refractories? I would have to say from probably about '66 or '67. Was there a situation where Allen Refractories ' wanted to use -Allen wanted to be a line. So, NARCO would not have any knowledge of alternate destination as the products would be shipped? What organizational unit of NARCO would be most familiar with the composition of its articles? Is that located in Curwer.svi. e, Pennsylvania? No. It's located at State College- j Has State College been at its location for a good | number of years? j It's relatively recent. Prior to that time it was ! located at Curwer.sville Hospital. j For how long has a medical school been out -- FINCUN'MANCINI j 1 iii j The Court Reooftem --------------- 60! ROCKWELL AV6. SUITE SOS CLEVELAND 0*0 (256)696-^7 ----------1 ' S 3 Z i- '' as;-s 3i Sever, years. 2 Q Who was the head of the technical center? 3 A Vow, it would be Dr. Dandy. 4Q v-.at is Dr. Lar.dy's first name? 5 A Rich. ; 6q 7 Kow long has he been involved in this type of work? 8A Predates me so, I would say it's .-- I don't knew. 9 Q Would he be in a position to know the composition i i 10 of products made since 1961? ; 11 A Yes. | 12 Q What is his degree in? 13 A Ceramics Engineering. 14 Q Is there anyone else at the technical center that 15 is a long-term employee? 16 A I know he is a long termer, but I can't tell you 17 how long he .has been there. Ke has been there a ; 18 long time. 19 Q What is his technical background? 20 A I really don't know. ! \ 21 Q Do you have any knowledge of from whom NARCO may 22 have obtained asbestos fibers over the years? 23 A No, I don't. i 24 Q You're not aware of any business relationship with \ FINCUN-MANCINI ! The Reoortem ----------------601GOCKWRL avE. Suite 505 CISvelanq oho 44R4 (216)696-2272 ! CC*-UTE3-*, C- *ss;s 3' - * s:*'9 any asbestos company that you know ever ir. terns of supplying raw materials? A No. Q Did NARCO ever sellany type ofrefractory product that was, itself, so clear? A Yes, we have. Q What types of products would this have encompassed? A We had a insulation product. It had great circulation, as well as insulation. __ Q I want to ask you some questions about the resale but also any insulation. Okay. 31ock insulation; let's see, that was called NARCO block insulation. A That was not made by NARCO. Q ^ Who made that material? A Crane Manufacturing. Q To your knowledge, what time period did NARCO sell this block insulation material? To your knowledge, what portion of that time period was the block insulation supplied by Sagle-Picher? A I don* t know. A' . Q And before that time period, the only supplier of that block insulation would have been Eagle-Picher? FINCUN-MANCINI The Cot/t Rtocners 60' ROOCW6U. AVS. SUT? 505 OSVSlANQ OHO (2T6)a?6-22fl CCms^-cs-aiCEc 'BiNSCS'3' C*" v >is:b ac } 2I I 1 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 A Q A Q 12 13 li A 15 16 Q 17 18 19 20 A 21 22 23 Q 24 That's right. Was the material -- strike that. Was this bloc* insulation shipped by agie-?icher or Crane to NARCO's customers, or did the block insulation come to NARCO for packaging in NARCO box? I We -- it was shipped. It was shipped by Eagle-Picher under our name direct or to the customer direct or sometimes to Kernsville, by warehousing. ' Would sales of the NARCO box, etc, have an order number or order form like the other sales that we've talked about, or would they treat it | I ] I I differently in anyway? : No. They would generally be on the same as this one here. Other than the NARCO block insulation, to your knowledge did NARCO ever sell any refractory or i ; insulation material to customers that was made by somebody else? Yes. There would be times when we would be short of bricks and we would go to a competitor to see ; i j J I j if he could help me. Were there particular competitors that would help you out on an as-needed basis? Or did you simply j i FINCUN-MANCINI The Court Reporters j ----------------605 ROCKWSU. AV= SUITS 505 CLSvSLANQ OHO 44IU ----------------------------------------' (256)696-2272 SS*-1, "ES-A.S EC 'b*ss: *- :n s;s ei ] shop around until you found one that could do it"1 MR. KEINTZMAN: Do you remember the .-.ar.es of any of the companies that supplied materials to NARCO on occasion? 5 A Yes . 6 Q What names can you remember? 7 A Louisville, Welisville, AP Green-- really that's S about all I can remember, specifically. 9 Q Was this just as to particular types of bricks or 10 did it sometimes apply to other materials? t r A .Vo, only brick. 12 Q You didn't, for example, sell other peoples' 13 casts? U A No, X never bought a specialty from anyone. 15 Q Other than the NARCO block insulation and the 16 sales of brick on an as-needed basis from someone 17 else, did NARCO sell any other types of products 18 to customers that may have been made by somebody 19 else? 20 A Metal hanger and hangers. Insulated fire brick. 21 Q Limiting myself to the insulating fire brick, 22 under what circumstances would NARCO sell someone 23 else's insulating fire brick? 24 A To accommodate the customer, when he wants to J FINCUN-MANCINI TheCout Reporters 601ROCKWELL AVs. SUITE 505 CLEVELAND OMQ ca?<a (216)696-2272 CSC *qss:* fl* xs:s ac \ 2 3 4Q 5A 6Q 7 8A 9Q 10 ]] 12 13 14 A 15 Q 16 17 A 18 Q 19 20 A 21 22 q 23 A 24 place an order for all cf his needs, sometimes that night include insulating the fire brick, w our knowledge, and have it shipped to then. Did NARCO not make insulating fire bricks? We have a type, but it's not radient, no. From whom did NARCO purchase insulating fire br for retail to other customers? We've placed it through -In a situation where NARCO purchased insulating fire brick from someone else for sale to a customer, would that type of situation be reflected on the customary order form that we discussed earlier? Yes, it would. Would it be an ondocatopm on the order form tr.a this was someone else's insulating fire brick? It could. It may not. If it wasn't a NARCO manufactured product, how would it be recorded on the order form? When it comes to material and description, as i is above shown, a brand called NA -- something. And what would that something -- It would be North American -- 23 or 14 or something of that nature. FINCUN-MANCINI The Court Reoortem 601RCCXWSU. Av. SUITE 505 OEV=lANQ OHO 44!U (216)496-2272 -q*Ns:9|P''CN *s: 9 1Q 2 3A 4 5Q 6 7 8 9A 10 ]) 12 13 Q 14 15 A 16 Q 17 A 18 Q 19 20 A 21 q 22 23 A 24 Would the NA-something "ear. that it was a product not made by North American? Yeah. Really, that's the only time it was ever used. | So, all NARCO products had a name of some kind and : | If it's reordered on an order form as NA-scme number that signifies that it is not a NARCO manufacturing product? That's correct. But, there are two products that ! don't fall into that category NA-32 and na-33, and, i those are NARCO manufactured, and those are the only ones. \ Was there a particular code that was used for the insulating fire brick made by somebody else? No, just that. So, it could be NA- any of a variety of numbers? That's correct. Is there any way to take that and figure out whose material it was? No. What would decide what number was used after the !i NA-? The insulating fire brick -- that would give you about 16. So, NA-16 would be a 61 degree > FINCUN-MANCINI me Court f?eoorre 6O1GOCXW01AVS suns SOS CLSVElANQ CMQ 44TU () 696-2272 cc**--cs-AiCCs *5iss:3 p"'; *s:s ac 2 3 4 5 6Q 7 8 9 10 A 11 12 Q 13 14 15 A 16 17 18 19 20 Q 21 A 22 23 24 Q insulating brick. The only way that car. be determined is if somebcdy made a notation of it. And other manufacture's insulating fiberglass was warehoused somewhere to be shipped out when ordered to be ready for one. On the order form, in one of these situations, would it indicate that insulated fire brick was being purchased, or would it just say 5000 NA-15, and not say insulating fire brick? I It would say insulating fire brick, but that would ; be about the extent of it. Other than what we've talked about so far. were there any other refractory or insulating materials sold by NARCO that were made by somebody else? The only one I can recall is, I said NARCO block insulation. There was a cement that was used wirn ; the NARCO block insulation, and I can't recall what that name was right now. It was sold very rarely. We preferred selling our own. Was this an insulating cement? It would have been. I really don't know. like I | I ! said, there is very little. We preferred using j our own cement. From whom did NARCO get this cement? j I i FINCUN-MANCINI The Cout Reoorrett 601RQCKWSU AV SURE SOS ClSVElANQ OMO 441U (216)696-2272 A X don't know, I believe it was early. Q Would this be t the same time that this was so by NARCO? A Yes, but we kept stock of it. Q Some were manufactured for people for use in conjunction. What were the names of these sets A Narcoset. Q Is that the product sold for that purpose, or a there others used? A That's -- it is only one I ever saw. Q Was Narcoset sold as an insulating cement? A How was it referred to? Q Well, was NARCO set sold for purposes other tha simply being used in conjunction with the block insulation? A Yeah. For laying brick. Q Are you aware of whether or not NARCO set ever contained asbestos at any time? A I am not. Q Are you aware of whether or not the block ever contained asbestos at any time? A No. Q Are there anyother refractory orinsulating materials thatNARCO sold that may have been flNCUN-MANCINI The Cocrr Reporter <501 Rocxwai. avs. sure 50s clsvelanq oho <utu (2*) 496-2272 SCMPi,,-a-AiCE3 *3iNS:s s- C - scs se made by someone else? A None that I can think of. 3 X Did SkRCO ever sell any spray material, gumite 4 spray material that was made by someone else? 5 A No. 6 Q Okay. So, all the gur.r.ite sprays that NARCO sold 7 during your tenure, to the best cf your knowledge, 8 were made by NARCO. ' Did NARCO manufacture any 9 product that was sold to another manufacturer of 10 refractory or insulation materials for sale to 11 their customers. 12 A Only on a reciprocal basis, where people were 13 j M covered with brick supply, and we could help them out. That would be the only one. 15 Q So, these are sort of spot sales on an emergency '6 basis? 17 A Right. 18 Q To the best of your knowledge, NARCO never made a 19 particular product or products that other 20 manufacturers wanted to sell, such that it was 21 regularly supplied to that other manufacturer for 22 sale and rebranded with that other manufacturer's 23 name. 24 A I*m sorry? FINCUN-MANCINI TheCOLrt Reoonen 601&OOCWSLL AV5. SLUE 505 CLEVELAND OHO 4404 (216)496.2272 * *SC* 3 1 Q Do you know if NARCO ever entered into any kind of 2 a licensing agreement with another manufacturer 3 whereby another manufacturer was allowed to 4 license and sell a -- . 5 A I don't think. Yes, I do, but that was an Indian 6 doctor. We got into it with a licensee in India, 7 but, it was strictly for brick. 8 Q So, NARCO manufactured for sale to a concern in 9 the Country of India? 10 A Yes. 11 Q Was it a brick product? 12 A It was a pain in the ass, when I came home. I 13 (Discussion off the record.) 14 Q Did NARCO ever have an occupational medicine 15 director, either full time or part time, 16 consultant basis, that you know of? 17 A I really don't know. ; 18 Q Are you aware of any controversy that ever arose i 19 within the company about a NARCO product possibly | i 20 containing asbestos, and by that I mean before j 21 1985? | 22 A I am not aware of any. I 23 Q Are you aware of whether NARCO was ever sued by j 24 someone claiming they were exposed to ar. asbestos ! 1 FINCUN-MANCINI j The Court Reoorteo | -------------------------------- 60i nocKwai avs suits sos cusvelanq chc 4404-----------------------------------------' (216)6?6-2Z7 CCm0`-t3-a>C3 *a*.s:9'S tscaae product before the litigation I am involved in. beginning in 1985? A So . Q That's not something that youhave anyknowledge. hearsay, or otherwise. During the tenure that you had with the sales department, have there ever been any inquiries by customers about the possible use of asbestos in NARCO products? A None that I am aware of. Q Do you know if any time duringyour tenure the sales department or any of the employees in the sales department ever provided any information to people in the store about asbestos being in your department. Do you know if NARCO has ever been involved in any research activities of any kind involving either asbestos or silicon? A No. <j So, youdon't know if hewas everinvolved with dating employees relating to or having to go to the doctor. Have you ever seen any documents as an employee of NARCO in any way dealing with asbestos ans health? A NO. Q Or in any way dealing withasbestos? Have you FINCUN-MANCINI The Court Reporters 60' ROCKWELL AVS. SUTE 5C5 OSVSlANQ CWO 44IU (2T6)66-2272 1 i 3 4 5 6 7 S 9 10 11 12 13 J 14 15 16 17 13 19 20 21 22 23 24 s*nS c a - In XS:3'3C ever seen any written material of any kind wr.ere the description containing any kind of warning information about potential hazards associate witr. any NARCO products? As part of the marketing did NARCO prepare a product catalogue that could be provided to a customer? General catalogues, yes they did. Was there a title for this catologue? ''NARCO' Refractories Guide" and the "NARCO f j Refractories Handbook" are one in the same. So, one document was called the "NARCO Refactories ' Guide", and the second was called the "NARCO , Refractories Handbook", and these books and manuals are standing besides me, and who used to be able to take these things? Sales General 3rochure indicated these things. So, what's the difference between the handbook and the guide? The guide is sort of a little pack that's given out with kits. It just indicates theproducts j ; j that we have available. The handbook is a little more detailed with some things in it, like brick, fireproof. Does your officer have dozens of Refractories J I i [ I ! I FINCUN-MANCINI The Coi/t Reoorten j j --------------- 601 ROCKWELL AVE. SUITE 505 CLEVELAND OHO 44TU------------------------------------------ - (2k>)66-22/2 Guides and Refractories Handbooks that would ha been given to customers over time? Just the more recent ones. We generally pass a of them out, and then reorder. Do you know if you have any guides or handbooks that would have been available for customers in prior years? We would not. All right. And, who printed this literature? Some were printed by an outside printing ccmpan Was that done by somebody in the city in Cleveland? I don't know. Who would know who the printer was? E.L. Starky. He made the arrangements for that Is he in the Cleveland area? Yes. How long has he been in the Cleveland office? I would say, he started the year before or the year after I did, one or the other. So, it is either '60 or -- '60. What's his first name? Elman. The Com Reoonefs 40! 3CCKWSU. AV: SUTE SOS CtEVclANQ 0*0 0*) 696-2271 SNS;a a- z '' s: = 1 And what all 2 He's right upstairs here or. the 10th floor. Ho is the services director, and I an not sure if he still holds that title. 5Q Did NARCO prepare or offer promotional literature 6 with respect to its literature other than the 7 Guide and the Handbook? 8A You mean literature? 9q 10 Literature that would be given to customers as to particular products or -- ] I A There would be some specialty products that would 12 have been. ) 13 q Would Mr. Starky also be familiar with who printed 14 up those brochures? 15 A Yes. 16 q Were all NARCO products included in the guide and 17 the handbook? 18 A I don't think all were included. I think it was 19 just a general listing of times of products and 20 kinds of products with prices. 21 Q If a customer wanted information about a 22 particular product, wanted technical data as to 23 what their product was, then, a sheet or a 24 brochure of some kind that was developed far J FINCUN-MANCINI 7!*.e Court Recovers 601 RCCKW&1 AV. SUITE 505 CLEVELAND00 44r-i (Z16) 696-2272 specific products that would be sent to a customer? We would have had a general brochure that w send, as I indicated today. If a specific product -- if they need a test on a specifi product that could be done through our tech services department. A sheet of information was regularly kept t for such matters? That's correct. So, for purposes of knowing the basic liter that NARCO sent out to its customers, the Refractories Guide and the Refractories Kan there were brochures on specialties? Let me see, anything; displays, reprints of What magazines did NARCO regularly advertis I don't know. What department in the headquarters deals w NARCO's insurance? Entire finance department. Finance. So, the finance department is responsible for getting liability insurance dealing with the insurance carriers for the people, like me. Why me, I am asking this The Cotrt Reporter 60130CKWSJ. AVI suite 505 CLEVELAND OHO AAf-S <216)696-2272 C3M0U~E-A.ses 'bans:*'#' c*. ' xsca at some people have loss casualty ir.surar.ee, ar.d sere people want to know who is respor.sibi le. 3 That, I don't know. 4Q Who heads up the finance department? 5 A The Vice President of it would be Richard 6 Ainsworth, presently here. 7 Q Did NARCO ever employ individuals who would go ir. 8 to a customers steel mill for the purpose of 9 applying or installing a NARCO product. j j 10 A Yes. 11 Q What were these people called? 12 A They were called servicemen. ! ! i j 13 Q Explain the circumstances under which a serviceman 14 would be involved in installing a NARCO product'' 15 A As far as the circumstances? 16 Q If that's not a sign on your arrow? 17 A Yes, it's not mine to tell you how they serve 18 everyone at any time. A serviceman in a sales ! !9 office is made available to the individual outside 20 salesperson. 21 Q Would the serviceman be kind of a technical person 22 that could go in to troubleshoot a problem, or was ! 1 f 23 the serviceman the one that was there for the ! 24 purpose of installing it and give them the yellow j i jJ FINCUN-MANCINI The Coot Reoorteo j -------------- 601 ROCKWELL AV SUITE 505 0V&ANQ CHO (2k) 606-2272 --------------------------------- ------ - CC**aCEC sass:5z v *SZ3 8 card? 2; A i 3i 4Q If you are asking me if he is technically competent, only on the brick layer basis. Okay. But, the servicemen were assigned too 5 particular sales offices? 6 A Yes. 7Q 8A Were they considered a portion of the sales for Yes; hourly basis. 9Q Have you ever been active in any trade associat 10 dealing with any asbestos or silicon related !! question? 12 A No. 13 Q Do you know if anybody has been? Is there a J 14 particular person in the central offic that wcu !S come to your mind as that's the person to go to 16 your complaint potential hazards of a health 17 problem? 18 A No. 19 Q So, if a customer went to a NARCO salesperson a 20 said, "Hey, I'm worried about the potential hea 21 hazards of this NARCO product," and that 22 salesperson called you in the sales office ar.d 23 says, "Who do I get get?" Who would do this? 24 would ask for the health and safety to the prod FINCUN-MANCINI The Coot Reporters 601 ROCKWELL AVS. SUTE 505 CLSVsLANQ OHO 44TU (216) 696-2272 CC C -- "a-nsC* -- * <s:sg i would be forwarded to the -- Is there a person ;r. 2 this respect that I would get? 2A I would really tell them to contact Sick C,ar.dy. 4 and, if necessary, have return them to whoever was 5 there. 6 (Duscussion off the record.) 7Q Have you ever had a deposition taken before, like 3 this, in connection with any litigation? 9 A No. 10 Q Are you aware of anybody in this room? I will 11 pose it like that. 12 A No, not that I am aware of. ; 13 Q NARCO has manufactured over the years a number of i M products that are listed in the refractories 15 directories as castables insulating aggregates. *y 16 question is can you describe what a castable, 17 insulating aggregate is? 18 A I have no idea .what it is. 19 q 20 A For what purposes would Narcocrete be used? It's a castable. It is used for lining units of i | 21 22 Q 23 some type. Is it sometimes used as a spray material or is it always applied in some temporary type fashion? j i j 24 MR. HEINTZMAN: Why don't you -- I'm j J FINCUN-MANCINI The Court Reporters 401 ROCKWELL AVS SLSTE 505 OEVELANQ OhO AXBA (216) 496-2272 CCMPuTE-A,CE '#iNS;s <s:s 9c not sure those two are mutually exclusive. Q Is Narcocrete ever applied in a spray? A I have never heard it being use in a gun. Q Is it a dry material that's mixed with water for applications? Same question with regard to Nargolite. A Again, I've never heard of it being applied by gun. And, yes, it's mixed with water. Q Same questions with respect to arrow cast? ' A As far as I know, that's cast aluminum, but I've J never heard of arrow cast going through a gur.? I never ever heard of this, and yes, it is dry and ' mixed with water. Thank you very, very much, Mr. Spahiinger. MR. JENNINGS: Just for the re this is an establishing of 9 or 10 inches of documents that we've referred to and presumably, you're going to transmit them informally, and we can work out an index. From looking at them during the breaks, there are a lot of pages that are to some extent illegible because of the quality of the original document. I assume that we can work out some way to, if need be, somebody can refer to the copies and see if they are as The Couf Recovers 601 POCKWai AVS. sure 505 C.VcUVN0 0*0 (7-6) 6*6.222 1 accurate as the originals. 2 MR. HEINTZMAN: If a particular or.e 3 or several are poor we can pull the origin 4 sheet. 5 MR. JENNINGS: Once we get a product 6 list that will simplify things, because a lot of 7 the names will be obvious. 8 (Deposition concluded at 4:35 p.m.) 9 10 M 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 FINCUN-MANCINI The Court fteoorte* 601POCAVFJ. AVS. SUT 505 CtSVELANO OHO 447.4 (216)696-2272 'Pans:#'9* C * ' <s:#as 1 State of Ohio, } SS: CERTIFICATE 2 County of Cuyahoga. ) 3 I, Carol Dodrill, Notary Public in 4 and for the State of Ohio, duly commissioned and 5 qualified, do hereby certify that the within named | I i 6 witness, George Spahlinger, was by me first duly sworn 7 to testify the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but 8 the truth in the cause aforesaid; that the testimony 9 then given by him was by me reduced to 10 stenotypy/computer in the presence of said witness, j I? afterward transcribed, and'that the foregoing is a true j .2 and correct transcript of the testimony so giver, by 13 him as aforesaid. | 1 14 I do further certify that this deposition was IS taken at the time and place in the foregoing caption 16 specified, and was completed without adjournment. 17 I do further certify that I am not a relative, 18 counsel, or attorney of either party, or otherwise 19 interested in the event of this action. 20 IN WITNESS WHEREOF, I have hereunto set my hand 21 and affixed my seal of office at Cleveland, Ohio, or. 22 this //rtX. day of ^ ^ ^ . 1988. 23 carol oodriii. Notary Public 24 in and for the State of Ohio. My commission expires 3-17-92. TheCocrt Reporters 601SOCKWSU. AVt SUITE 505 CLEVELANQ OHO 44T14 (?6) 6*6-2272 IN RE: AS8ESTC3IS ANO SILICOSIS PRODUCT LXA8XLITY CASES CIVIL OIVISICN Administrative Docket No. 1987-71 NOTICE OF DEPOSITION TO: ALL COUNSEL OP RECORD PLEASE TAKE NOTICE that Plaintiffs shall take the deposition purser to the Pennsylvania Rules of Civil Procedure of MR. GEORGE N. SPAHLINGER or WEDNESDAY, JANUARY 27, 1988, commencing at 10:00 a.m., and continuing from cay to day until completed, to take place at the corporate offices of nortn American Refractories Company, located at 900 Hanna Building, East l-ith and Euclid Avenue, Cleveland, Ohio *41T5. (216) 621-5200. Mr, Spahlinger is an official of NARCO and will be questioned concerning sales of various products .from NARCO to Johnstown, as well as otn.ematters relevant to this litigation. Mr. Spahlinger is requested to produce and have with him for purposes of the deposition records previously requested in Plaintiffs' Request for Production of Documents and Interrogatory Answers relating to sales records so that the records can be discussed and attached as HtNCOSON i G0103ERG, P.C. Robert l. Jennynjgs. (Jr.. Esq. 1030 Fifth Aveijy'e v Pittsburgh. PA 55219 (412) 471-3980 and Gary L. Costlow, Esquire Third Floor, Central Par* Ccrrcr.s 430 Main Street Johnstown, PA 15901 (814) 539-5884 i 1 Oil AT* Cr b:`V. hereby certify that true and correct copies of the foraocirg OF OPPOSITION were forwarded to all counsel of record by firs: class j.s. mail, postage prepaid, on this dav of January. 1988. Robert L. Jennvngs, dr; ,U ** 3 NORTH AMERICAN REFRACTORIES CO. CLEVELAND 14,"OHIO NORTH AM.jCAN REFRACTORIES CO. ' DIVISION OF SLTRA CORPORATION CLEVELAND. OHIO 44114 Hast UOMELSDORF OUTf V!* | j 2%/'\ -t-eee -C 0UAI CE errw.x.TWX gy mail !.V;l 1V\Z' CS5S . tic ' yE*o<Y cmo* Sr EC 10 C12 2/3# :;* fcjni 2S C-400< i"SUBSIDIARY CO. OF BETHLEHEM STEEL CORP* BETHLEHEM STEEL CO. MECH* DEPT* TRUCK STOP #173 BETHLEHEM/ PA. 18016 JOHNSTOWN# PA* L shipping oatss: OCTOBER 1971 .L 1*0/S/71 600-10S-H9337-P3 AllO-5446^ PHONE |l0/4 NST 30 OATS VOMELSDOEF# ?A. 1 3 io#ooa i 60S 4 1*184 * 736 7 * * NAfWAG 308 9X4-1/2X3 STS 9X4--1/2X2--1/2 STS 9X4-1/2X1-1/4 #1 SPLIT 9X4-1/2X2 #2 SPLIT i? >3 14 l l 17 l| 30 J1 a a 9eci*i. i^sToucnaro 1*20 UOO *50 30 T/EQ 12000 715* 608 DO 559!* DO 539 DO 13756 i1 .553 EA ` i 7i5 a i B265i . 49 E. 5I 70 ! .625^ j! (\ i LAl' * 1 1 /y , i .- . A 1 -| | 11 i !- j i * sr-:. TRKS WXU. BE ACCPTED ONLY BETWEEN KBS OF TAM 4 BfW* MOM* THRU FBI * INCLUSIVE HOLIDAYS EXCEPTED AND B/L SHOULD BE-SONOTEDt TYPE C-l PHOT* DVQ P-235* DMA .... TVX 10/5 - PLAINTIFFS |I #e0xAHislOrrCtfotl'IC_A^ri2QN. I 32 3*T*' /T. CHViVO** 9* UTlA C9*Ol*!iON O .n Y Com? or BETHLEHEM Steel ZOftPQ R A Tj[ON SCTHLEHEH ,Penns Y L V A K l a iCOlc - sethlchch Steel J ME CH . De PA'THCv T 6 Truck Stop #242, JOhnstcvm.,~a . 0 .;a :vhoi 0S(t NO 9iSC'">N Car no. s.O.S CUS *vCr.S <9u"-"*1*`M :a?,-.**r$a.u* ,v>_____**_>_;> Skipped 2"24'7C 3/t 6C''2~56 C. A .Sh.strc m , I uc . " Prepaio l:-s? item #2:: 9x^x3 Sts. 5824 6989 19-.50!^': .'3 :-x / * t a : K E 2 0 r; i Plus prepaid raaoKT charscs AS PER S'iLL ATT ACHED liji 77#' <g 3.3.C' irzSkipped 2-2--"C 3/l 50*2" 5? C. A .Shetrom , 1 ." L:-S.= Item #?g*33sx^; Sts. "~3 ^-3 ,, _A P* . -SSSr'Ct: Plus p r ep a i d r r e nc h t as per 5il- attache: c k a ?: e s S Skipped L-"3P i t s m ,#2CO WSZS2-53 -T s * 2.A ,3h etrok,Inc . 2:25 Packed on 13 Pallets Plus prepaid preiioht charses as per SILL ATTACHED 1 4c2ol# S :-.?c:C/ 3h | a ED 2~2~~~Zz/'- 02"2"95 C .A .Sh JTROK . ! KC . " r R E p a : r l:-3P Item #22C 9x-t*' 2:s. P-2P / -/' Packs: on Plus prepaio treisht Charles as per i I LL ATTACHED ____ ^ _ ______ 3 ,, t 4 ** 1 JO 57 (jjrtJuiiTm r--* * *****. *** .** $** ({ X 0". ---ft >o- - i. 07* dui <o aFVEUND. OHIO M\M CURVCNSVIU.C ,PA I fEB,27>1970 i 5C~-r ^ -Sussiciary Com^akics or 7 3cthlcmcm Srcri. Corporat^o:;^ 0 SCTHLiH CM ,?CN/;STLVAN 1 A iSClO H 3CTHLCKCM STCCU CORPORATION i Mcch.Dcpartment, Truck Stop#p Johnstown,Pa. o VIA oC*umito* *C DtSCH^TfON O Ca* no. t.OA- OU? WORKS v<*ne wrKop^ fi*VE\JWK* V/W W * ' ** :-2ic- \~'i c-}OSC Sh i ppco 2-27*70 3/L 50-2-315 McQuaioc Trucking Co. i NARCOLIK*: PUASTl C 1 n 1 OCtt Car TONS RoO p6coc 9$.90i*7 : i," P-ackcook 1 2 Paulcts 5 J rfMV <*"*< * *n . >**> lOfMan * m <* t*M* 10 0 P 3 2 ipUINTlfrS < >*1! I|o*i*rr *a \ 'OtxrwiSPSsv. J **