Document nNkK2XgXQqwKewb1bGa9Vg7BR

FILE NAME Owens Illinois OWILL DATE 1993 June 23 DOC OWILL105 DOCUMENT DESCRIPTION Legal - Testimony of Gerrit Schepers JEFFERSON CIRCUIT COURT SPECIAL DIVISION No. 07591 HERMAN SNAWDER ET UX VS. TESTIMONY OF GERRIT SCHEPERS PLAINTIFFS ILLINOIS INC ET AL GLASS CO DEFENDANTS APPEARANCES Hon William Kenealy Segal Isenberg Sales Stewart Cutler & Tillman Attorneys at Law 2100 Waterfront Plaza 325 West Main Street Louisville Kentucky 40202 Hon Marc Weingarten Greitzer & Locks Attorneys at Law 1500 Walnut Street Philadelphia PA 19102 Hon Hon Byron Miller and Rita Williams Stites & Harbison Attorneys at Law 1800 West Market Street Louisville Kentucky 40202 June 23 1993 JUANITA M. TOOLE COURT REPORTER - PUBLIC STENOGRAPHER 109 SPRUCE DRIVE FRANKFORT KENTUCKY 40601 PHONE 1-502-227-4955 FAX 1-502-227-7130 a 1 : APPEARANCES Cont'd Hon Harold Pinkley Attorney at Law Knoxville TN Hon Cornelius Coryell Wyatt Tarrant & Combs Attorneys at Law 2600 Citizens Plaza Louisville Kentucky 40202 Hon Galen White - Boehl Stopher Graves & Deindoerfer Attorneys at Law 2300 Capital Holding Louisville Kentucky and Center 40202 Jeffrey S. Hebrank Burroughs Hepler Broom MacDonald & Hebrank Attorneys at Law 103 North Main Street Edwardsville Illinois 62025-0410 The above styled matter came to be heard on June 23 1993 at 9:00 A.M. in the 4th Judicial Circuit Courtroom in the Hall of Justice Louisville Kentucky JUAN M.ITT OOA LE COURT REPORTER - PUBLIC STENOGRAPHER 109 SPRUCE DRIVE FRANKFORT KENTUCKY 40601 PHONE 1-502-227-4955 FAX 1-502-227-7130 SCHEPERS INDEX Page No. ad Testimony of Gerrit Schepers Direct Examination by Mr. Weingarten Cross Examination by Mr. Pinkley 70 - 99 Redirect Examination by Mr. Weingarten 100 - 102 Recross Examination by Mr. Pinkley 103 - 108 Redirect Examination by Mr. Weingarten 109 - 111 Certificate of Reporter 112 \y i! {i The witness GERRIT SCHEPERS after having been duly sworn states and testifies as follows DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR WEINGARTEN Q Q2 A Doctor would you please tell the members of the jury your full name and your address Yes The first name is Gerrit spelled R two initials W. and H. and sir name is Schepers spelled R Address is 6527 Sunny Hill Court McLean Virginia 22101 Doctor Schepers where were you born South Africa 23 And how old are you A Seventy Q How long have you lived in the United States O A Since '54 Q 1954 A Yes Q And are you not a United States citizen now A Yes I am Q Doctor what is your present occupation A I just do some consulting and research I am retired Are you licensed to practice medicine Yes Q Where do you hold a medical license Q 10 Presently in Delaware and still in South Africa Doctor would you summarize please for the members of the jury your educational background Yes I went to school in South Africa I went to University in 1930 in the city of Johannesburg I studied science and medicine Qualified as a doctor in 1938. I continued research and post graduate study and teaching through to 1945 and I received a first graduate doctorate of science degree Continued further research and study in 1948 when I received another post graduate medical degree in internal medicine Then I came to the oe United States in 1949 on a fellowship I studied at New York University the subject of industrial medicine And then the last year of more or less full time study was in 1957 through to '58 when I studied at the University of Michigan as a fellow in pathology 11 Doctor Schepers is the European or South African system of post graduate and medical education different than back here in the United States Yes in many respects It's the same topic mainly the diseases that people and how we deal with them But our training is more general because of the duties that the doctors have tend to be more wide ranging So it takes six years of undergraduate training and another ten of post graduate before you can be a specialist 12 And Doctor you had mentioned that you had done some teaching in South Africa before 1945 Yes Q 13 Who were your students Medical students and post graduate science and medical doctors -- Q 14 And what subjects were you instructing then in Well miscellaneous subjects anatomy physiology pathology were the main subjects 15 Did you have a private practice of medicine at all in South Africa before 1949 A very brief period I had a consulting and I saw patients And I had a laboratory and studies for doctors in pathology But I very soon went from the University to government service And that's how I found my private practice 16 Now you said you went from University I just want to make sure that we have clarified You ' Q A Q You a aS received your medical degree I think you said in 1938 '38 yes And then you said I think you received some post medical degrees-- Yes --or post graduate degrees as well A doctor of science in 1945 post graduate doctorate of medicine in 1948 What institutions awarded those two post graduate degrees The first at the University of South Africa in Pretoria The second at the University in Johannesburg with a complicated name called WITHWHERSREND W Withwhersrend Yes Doctor I think you said that in 1949 you joined government service in Africa '44 144 Yes What was the nature of your government service at that time Q 24 I joinedwhat was known then as the Pneumoconiosis Bureau of the government of South Africa All right Now Doctor we have heard testimony in the first part of this case that pneumoconiosis means dust disease Q 25 Yes Is that what the Pneumoconiosis Bureau dealt with Yes Q 26 And what were the dust diseases that were being dealt with by the Pneumoconiosis Bureau when you joined them oO Any and all The principal one then was silicosis because of the large gold mines there But we have dealt with any other disease that might occur in smaller industries O Q 27 Did you deal with asbestos related diseases oh yes That was the major industry Q 28 Okay Is there a mine asbestos mining industry in South Africa was there at the time There were three major mining centers One for the crocidolite mines in Grutamont phonetic one for the amosite mines in Granje Ignab phonetic and one for the chrysotile mines in Swaziland Barberton phonetic ) O Q 29 30 A Q 31 A Q 32 33 Doctor Schepers what were your specific responsibilities with the Pneumoconiosis Bureau when you joined them in 1945 Multiple and varied and progressive I served as an internist to examine candidates who thought that they had a dust disease checked their bodies checked their rays if they died had a look at their tissues And then form an opinion and jointly with other members of the Bureau there were ten members we made decisions much like you would try to make them here in this courtroom How long did you work for the Pneumoconiosis Bureau at that time Ten years That was from 1945 Yes Was there a break in the middle of that Doctor when I think you said you came here Yes I came to the United States between 1949 and 1 150 Now I think you mentioned Doctor that that was because you had been awarded a fellowship of some type That's correct Q 34 What was the nature of the fellowship that you received in 1949 It was called the Commonwealth fellowship and it was awarded from New York at the Hartman's Q 35 Foundation And one was awarded the Commonwealth each year and I was the recipient of that ~ fellowship for that year So there was only one individual per year who received the Commonwealth Fellowship or Yes Q 36 And in 1949 that was you Yes Q 37 Doctor Schepers when you came to the United States on the fellowship in 1949 where did you spend your time 0 I was affiliated with the New York University Institute of Industrial Medicine of New York University That's not where I spent all of my time I traveled around in the United States quite a lot The teacher that I had selected was a consultant to many organizations and industries and 0 sent me around to these industries to learn things Q 38 first hand Who was the teacher for with whom you were working at NYU Q 39 Doctor Anthony Lanza And what was Doctor Lanza's primary interest that attracted you Pneumoconiosis and industrial medicine Q 40 And while you were here in the United States in that 1949 1950 time period where did you go and what did you do Who did I-- Q 41 Where did you go and what type of study did you engage in in that fellowship Oo Just about everywhere But I spent a long time at a research institution in upstate New York | known as the Saranac Laboratory Q 42 Q 43 All right And what was the Saranac Laboratory doing in the field of dust diseases in 1949 It was a research institution then to study the nature and the problems relating to the various dust diseases And most of it was done as contracts to specific industries Were the asbestos diseases being studied at Q 44 Saranac at that time Yes sir Did you have the opportunity Doctor Schepers -10- Q 45 Q 46 me first ask you this How much of the time that you were here in 1949 1950 did you spend on site at the Saranac Laboratories About three months altogether And while you were at Saranac in that three month period Doctor did you have the opportunity to observe and review the research that was going on there concerning asbestos diseases That was the purpose of it yes What did you observe did you participate in with respect to those asbestos disease experiments at Saranac in 1949 The laboratory had been doing research since 1887 So there was an enormous amount of accumulated materials that could be reviewed I was particularly interested in the issue of cancer as it relates to asbestos particularly the American topic of asbestos known as chrysotile So I went over all of the medical data relating to patients human beings that were there there were very many of those And all of the old experiments that had been made since 1930 1928 actually by a Dr. Gardner the previous director through to about 1946 G Q 47 A Okay Let me ask you a few questions about the directors of the laboratory Doctor When you were there on your fellowship in 1949 who was the laboratory director Doctor Author Vorwald was then the director Q 48 A Okay And Vorwald is spelled W _ That is correct Q 49 A And was Doctor Vorwald supervising the asbestos experiments when you were there Yes Q 50 Now who had been the predecessor director of the lab before Doctor Vorwald did you say Doctor Gardner Q 51 That was Doctor Leroy Gardner And how long had Doctor Gardner been the director of the Saranac Labratory He became associated with it in 1918 and he died in 1946 and he was there all that time 6) And had Doctor Gardner initiated the experimentation concerning asbestos and disease Enormous amount of research yes He commenced his asbestos experiments in 1928 and never stopped In fact it was still going on when he died Q 53 Did you have available to you in 1949 the prior research that had been conducted by both Doctors Gardner and Vorwald Yes Q 54 Doctor other than the time that you spent at Saranac and the time that you spent at the New York :) University where else did you go in the United States and Canada for that matter during your fellowship I went from the east coast to the west coast from the north to the south and vice versa I visited cities like Pittsburgh Chicago San Francisco Los Angeles all of the big places where there were many industries to inquire into the health problem issues in varied industries Q 55 Did you continue to investigate the issue of @ asbestos disease in those other places you visited Q 56 Oh yes Doctor at the conclusion of your fellowship did you return to South Africa Yes Q 57 When you went back to South Africa is this in e) 1950 now I would just like to get my dates correct '50 Yes sir 1950 -13- Q 58 And what employment did you take up when you went back to South Africa I was sort of promoted and became chief of what is called cardiopulmonary section and was made the Vice Chairman of the Bureau Q 59 Of the Pneumoconiosis Bureau Yes Q 60 How long did you remain in the employment of the Pneumoconiosis Bureau toyNe Till the end of 1954 beginning of 1954 Q 61 And what were your responsibilities as as head of the Cardiopulmonary and Assistant Chief I think you said of the Pneumoconiosis Bureau for that time period I introduced the new methods of lung function testing which I worked out here in the United States and in Canada and in Europe Those are all new methods I introduced those and established labs for that And also assigned with cardiological testing and introduced new methods of 1 ray diagnosis of the pneumoconiosis That sort 'O of thing Q 62 Doctor Schepers from 1950 to 1954 did you continue to examine people for diagnosis of -14- asbestos related disease oh yes But each in greater detail now 63 Did there come a time Doctor when you returned to the United States Yes In 1954 64 And I think you said that you have been here ever ~ since Yes 65 Doctor what was it that prompted your return to the United States in 1954 Doctor Vorwald had left the laboratory So I was invited to become the new director there 2) 66 So you replaced Doctor Vorwald as director of the Saranac Laboratory A Yes sir Q 67 And I think you started that position in 1954 A Yes Q 68 69 Doctor Schepers how long did you remain in the directorship of the Saranac Laboratory The till 1957 and I continued the work of the lab for many years thereafter When you started as director of the laboratory in 1954 Doctor was there research being conducted at the lab concerning asbestos and disease -15- Q A Q A 0 e e Pe Yes Did you personally become involved in that research Yes Did that research involve animal experimentations on inhalation of asbestos Yes Doctor can you update us from the time you left Saranac in 1957 the way when did the Saranac Laboratory close On February '57 In fact about '58 What was-- Some of the experiments had to be completed because of the contracts and things So some of them I didn't get to write reports till about 1980 So there was on going work-- Yes --even after the laboratory shut down Yes Doctor why was it that the Saranac Laboratory closed Why did the Saranac Laboratory shut down Well the disease of tuberculosis was concurred all of the sudden with the discovery of phthisis And the laboratory was affiliated with the --> Q 77 Q 78 A Q 79 Q 80 Truelow Sanatorium They were under the same board of direction And I was head of both And I made the recommendation that we close the laboratory we close the hospital but continue the laboratory but focus on cancer because that was the coming thing instead of tuberculosis It was not a good idea My proposal is not very popular in the lab being closed too Okay So once tuberculosis essentially was cured the sanatorium and the laboratory had no reason for primary reason for existence Not for tuberculosis no So you found yourself out of a job in 1957 Temporarily yes Okay Well how did you fill the gap What did you do next Doctor The University of Michigan invited me to come and be a professor there and they gave me a fellowship But I couldn't afford as a newcomer to stay in that capacity So I took a job at the du Pont Company- Now that's let me first you were at the University of Michigan Doctor what were you teaching A Q 81 Pathology Okay And we have heard a lot of discussion already Doctor about pathology and some of the other medical terms that you've mentioned And that's why I am not asking you to explain it because the jury has already heard that But Doctor you then took a job with the du Pont Company A Yes 9 Q 82 Is that the du Pont Chemical Company in Wilmington A That's correct | -) Q 83 And you started there probably around what 1958 or so )A 158 0 Q 84 Doctor what was your job title with du Pont and what were your responsibilities || A I managed all of the pathology research for the 0 i company on its own problems the health problems of its employees and health problems of its customers And I was also responsible for various facets of 0 i heart and lung medicine for the Medical | Q 85 Department How long did you remain as the chief pathologist of -18- Q 86 Q 87 Q 88 Q 89 du Pont About five years Till about 1962 Yes During the five year period Doctor Schepers that you worked for the du Pont Company did you have any involvement with asbestos diseases Less than before I continued some of my consultations with the company organizations that I had come to know before And continued some interest in asbestos research for the du Pont Company to find a substitute for asbestos and did some research along those lines Doctor after leaving the employment of du Pont in 1962 where did you become next employed I joined the United Stated Government All right And in 1962 Doctor Schepers what was your first position with the United States Government I went to the Food and Drug Administration for one year was in charge of cancer treating drug research And then I became the director of the Bureau of Laboratories with the Public Health Service I stayed with that for five years And -19- then joined the Veterans Administration in 1970 First in field hospitals and then in 1974 in the central office as Chief of heart and lung diseases and then later on environmental diseases Q 90 Now in your positions Doctor with the Veterans Administration as the Chief of heart and lung disease and then also you said Chief of-- Environmental Q 91 --environmental disease What did you have under = your jurisdiction Q 92 Q 93 The Veterans Administration is a very large organization with 172 hospitals 230 clinics 90,000 beds and about 170,000 employees And were they all under your supervision No. NO Just the doctors the internist doctors not the surgeons And Doctor in your responsibilities with the Veterans Administration commencing around 1970 did you it part of your job to visit the various Veterans Administration hospitals throughout the world I visited practically all including the one here in Louisville Q 94 Okay I was going to ask you That included the -20- one here in Louisville Yes And I had many things to do with almost all of them Q 95 Specifically with respect to asbestos and disease Doctor did your Veterans Administration responsibilities include that particular area Yes There was compensation availabfloer veterans who had contracted asbestos diseases while 1 { i in military service or whose asbestos diseases I might have been aggravated if they had prior l exposure through military service There is that sort of compensation There were many claims made re) for benefits and most of those were adjudicated in field offices The Government had fifty field offices sort of like courts like this making decisions But when there were problems diagnostic problems then those were referred to me Q 96 Q 97 So you were the tie breaker if there was a dispute in diagnosis of asbestos disease Yes sir Doctor Schepers when did when you retire from Government service if at all did 189 -21- Q 99 Q 100 Q 101 Q 102 And what was your position or your job title when you left Government service in 1989 I had to was in charge of the cardiovascular diseases and the environmental health problems Did those environmental health problems include asbestos and asbestos-- Oh yes --diseases To a very large extent We had started the program of identifying all of the asbestos that was in buildings owned by the Government of the United States Veterans Department and to develop programs to remove them the asbestos And to bring all of the employees who may have encountered the asbestos during the work or might still do so And the programs of health surveillance Doctor Schepers we have heard some testimony in various various witnesses in this case about an organization called the ACGIH which stands for the American Conference of Governmental Industrial Hygienists Yes Are you familiar in your background and experience with that organization Q 103 Q 104 Q 105 Q 106 Yes I consulted for them on various topics This was in the form of the chairman writing me a letter saying can you tell us what you know about such and so That sort of thing I did on a recurring basis Is the ACGIH a Government agency No. No. It's a private organization whose members were initially all employees of state governments sort of like the State of Kentucky would have a Government Department where which there would be a hygiene officer of some kind and he would then represent the State of Kentucky Doctor Schepers and I will ask you some more questions a bit later about the ACGIH and-- Yes --some of their activities But I wanted to just get some general background for the jury at this point You mentioned that you retired from Government in 1989 and I think you said earlier Doctor that your present occupation is as a consultant Yes And I assume that that means Doctor that you consult with attorneys such as myself Yes Q 107 108 Q 109 And-- Mostly attorneys some other people sometimes asks me questions too And you have testified in court in asbestos related matters a number of times Oh very many times Doctor Schepers have you had opportunity to make any contributions to the published medical literature Yes A few Q 110 Can you tell the members of the jury how many D articles you have had published in medical texts or in medical journals A About 150 Q 111 A And of those it 130 or 150 150 Q 112 150 Of those 150 articles that you have published throughout the years Doctor Schepers approximately how many of them have related to asbestos and disease : To dust diseases 113 Asbestos Asbestos about twenty would say -24- 114 Q 115 A Q 116 A Q 117 A Q 118 A Q 119 A Q 120 A Q 121 Okay And Doctor have you also published books or chapters in books Yes And approximately how many books or book chapters have you published I think there is about twelve And do any of those deal with asbestos disease I am sorry Do any of those books or book chapters deal with asbestos Mostly Mostly Yes Doctor Schepers have you contributed any portions of what I will call general reference materials or general reference books You mean like encyclopedias That type of thing Yes Yes I have done that And specifically with relating to asbestos disease Doctor what has been your encyclopedia contribution The Encyclopedia Britannica is one The Encyclopedia of Cardiology is another paper of mine in which asbestos diseases of the heart are discussed 122 A Q 123 A The one that I am most familiar with Doctor that I hear about at home all the time is the Encyclopedia Britannica What chapter or section of the Encyclopedia Pneumoconiosis Britannica did you write - Dust diseases Yes Q 124 And did that include a discussion of asbestos diseases A Yes ord 125 Doctor Schepers can you estimate for the members of the jury how many individuals you had the opportunity to examine and diagnose with asbestos diseases over the course of your medical career from 1938 126 127 Very many It would run into well over 10,000 And can you tell us Doctor Schepers how many | chest rays you have evaluated in that period of | time for dust diseases More than two million And how many sets of pulmonary function test -26- 19 Q 128 129 Q 130 Q 131 132 Q 133 134 evaluations have you reviewed and opined about concerning dust diseases That would be many thousands Doctor I am going to show you a document which we should probably-- MR WEINGARTEN That's going to be No. - 9 Plaintiff's 9 Doctor I am going to show you a document which I have already told counsel what it is It's been marked as Exhibit 9. Can you tell the members of can you identify for the members-- Yes --of the jury what that is Yes This is a summary of things I have done and some of the articles that I have written And we call that a curriculum vitae or a resume Yes And Doctor does it appear to be relatively current and fairly accurate Yes I try to keep it one page if I can You failed So I have to drop out things because of the buildup Okay- So these are just the highlights of your -27- wyad wo) 6 Q 135 career Yes sir And these are the types of things Doctor that we have just been discussing in your last fifteen minutes or so of testimony Yes sir MR WEINGARTEN Your Honor I would offer this as Plaintiff's Exhibit No. 9 THE COURT So ordered MR WEINGARTEN Thank you And at this time Your Honor I would tender Doctor Schepers as an expert in the field of asbestos and diseases THE COURT So ordered MR WEINGARTEN Thank you wish to cross examine as to Does counsel qualifications MR PINKLEY We'll reserve all cross Thank you THE COURT here That is not the practice MR WEINGARTEN Thank you Your Honor THE COURT Okay MR WEINGARTEN It's different in 1 Q 136 different places Doctor Schepers again because we've had another week and a half or two weeks of this trial we don't need to go through everything from soup to nuts But I would like to have you highlight a few areas for us What is an asbestos fiber It's the little structure that forms of the fibers that exist were created about sixty million years ago So they're all very old things And they're all little fibers that were made up in different places of the earth in cracks between rocks In Canada these were delementric phonetic rocks with cracks in them and then the spaces in those cracks were filled by hot fluids molten rock consisting of magnesium and silica and they incorporated water molecules into the magnesium silica molecule And then that crystallized out as little hollow tubials and that became the chrysotile fiber Now some of those fibers also acquired calcium molecules and calcium atoms into the structure of the molecule and they crystallized out as tremolite fibers they are solid And some acquired a little fluid as well as the calcium and those became actinolite -29- Q 137 phonetic fibers And then some of them also attracted iron atoms and incorporated that with the molecule and those became anthophyllites That all happened up in Canada and that mixture that type four types of fibers up there is called chrysotile -~----~~-----~. There are a few other things in it like bricite phonetic and so forth But they're not considered to be asbestos But those four fibers are the components of Canadian asbestos Doctor-- And in South Africa and Australia and a few other places other types of fibers form The heating system is different perhaps and the rocks from which the parent material came probably are different from in Canada So in South Africa two basic types of fibers were formed called tricilite phonetic and amosite And in those two there is | 0 much more iron in the molecules that were very much larger the fiber is so much larger and they are more solid than the Canadian asbestos fibers Q 138 Doctor what is the size if an individual asbestos fiber Extremely small It's you took say a | | -30- crystal of like sugar grain or something like the tip of this pencil and that that were a Q 139 Q 140 chrysotile say cubic millimeter there would be about twenty billion chrysotile fibers in there they are so small Twenty million fibers-- Not million billion Twenty billion fibers on the point of a pencil Yes Q 141 So I take it Doctor that they're invisible to the naked eye ) Totally 142 If one were to be able to see with the naked eye asbestos fibers in a room such as this can you tell us Doctor how many fibers would have to be there before it could be seen Well the particle counts would be particles consisting of clusters of these individual fibers And when you have lots of these particles in the air then they make densities collectively that you can then begin to see you can shine a light through it to begin to see them When that becomes possible the count exceeds five hundred million -31- - Q 143 Q 144 Q 145 particles per cubic foot more like eight hundred million So to see it with the naked eye you'd have close to eight hundred million particles per cubic foot Yes Well Doctor that leads me to what I wanted to next ask you about We have heard some testimony from some witnesses in this case about two things one called a MAC or maximum allowable concentration and the other called a TLV or threshold limited value Are you familiar with those two phrases Doctor oh yes Can you tell us Doctor how the concept of TLV originated in this country Well many years ago about the 1920s it came about largely over silica because of the exposure of coal miners and rock miners into the silica which would produce the disease silicosis And largely because of the work after the Saranac Laboratory by Doctor Gardner and it was discovered that if you could bring the dust levels lower the amount of disease that the animals would show would be less and therefore the health risk to the Q 146 i if Q i 147 Q 147 Q 148 patient would be reduced or slow down And various engineering type professors got together and sort of ex cathedras phonetic selected the number of five million particles per cubic foot and said let's try for this Wait a minute Doctor let me slow you down I thought I knew Latin phrases What does ex cathedras phonetic mean Well just off the top of the hat MR WEINGARTEN Okay There is no proof of this But they said let's try it MR WEINGARTEN Let's see if it works Okay And Doctor are you familiar of when with when the first TLV was recommended for asbestos Yes It was in 1946. It was based on that five million concept Okay Now when the TLV was recommended of five million particles per cubic foot was the organization that made that recommendation the ACGIH which we have previously discussed Was it what Was the organization that made that recommendation the ACGIH Q 149 TT Yes sir And Doctor the TLV of five million particles per cubic foot if one were in a room with that concentration of asbestos would one be able to see the asbestos in the air concentrated-- if it were a No. Q 150 A Q 151 A --at five million No. You wouldn't see anything So it would still be invisible at that level Yes Q 152 Was the TLV as recommended originally Doctor back in I think you said 1946 A '46 -- 153 Was what was was that meant to prevent asbestos related cancers and mesotheliomas from occurring Oh no There was no study of the relationship between dust fiber levels in the air and cancer oh until about the 1980s And that's not yet been resolved There has never been a level found at which cancer is not at risk So there is no standard for cancer Le >) -- Q 154 Q 155 Q it ! 156 Q 157 So they don't know what a safe level is of asbestos-- No. --with respect to cancer No. No. The purpose of that number that was proposed in '49 is to prevent disabling asbestosis It came from the study that had been made by the United States Government known as the Dreason Study And that study was conducted in factories in North Carolina between 1946 and 19--1936 and 1938. And Doctor Dreason then had made the observation that disabling asbestosis was not observed in those employees whose jobs exposed them to less than five million particles per cubic foot of air They counted them then They way they counted them in those days Right And we did hear testimony yesterday from Doctor Wagoner about how the dust counts were made in those early days Doctor let me ask you-- MR PINKLEY Object to the side bar comment Your Honor MR WEINGARTEN I am just trying to update the doctor where we are so that the testimony makes sense in context Your Honor 158 THE COURT Okay Let's see what you do Now Doctor Schepers you've used the phrase I think two or three times now disabling asbestosis Yes Q 159 Was the TLV enacted to guarantee that there would be no disease if it had been adhered to on no All of the people of the employees had disease But it was the disability which was 160 the focus of the study Okay Now Doctor we have heard comment in this trial about a report called the Fleischer Report ry A Yes Q 161 A Are you familiar with that report Yes Q 162 Fr And that was in 1946 Yes Q 163 A Have you reviewed and read that report Yes Q 164 Did you know any of the authors either Doctors Fleischer or Mr. Drinker -36- 165 Q 166 167 168 169 I didn't know the other three authors I knew Professor Philip Drinker quite well Okay Did Doctor Fleischer ever write anything else concerning asbestos disease No. Are you in that aware of any conclusions that Fleischer Report were " brought Yes They studied the risk to insulators of working with amosite asbestos for less than ten years And they concluded that in less than ten years you won't see any disease Was it surprising at that time Doctor that there would be no disease in individuals working with asbestos for less than ten years Surprising would be the wrong term to use because it was really unknown Would you expect to see asbestos disease in people | exposed less than ten years | | No. Why not Because by then it was already known that under reasonably controlled working conditions you know unless people are very crudely exposed the disease did not manifest in a diagnosable form The -37- disease was there but you couldn't diagnose it by ray or some other means for the first twenty years Is that known as a latency period of the disease Yes Doctor did Fleischer and Drinker and their other authors study any individuals who had been exposed to asbestos for more than ten years In their cohort of about a hundred persons there were I think about fifty or so that had more than ten years exposure And the rest were all below ten years And I think there were six or there were three that had more than twenty years exposure And what did the authors find with respect to asbestos disease among those individuals who had been working with asbestos for more than ten or twenty years Those three men all had asbestosis I am sorry Doctor I did not hear your answer I said the three men all had asbestosis Okay Doctor in terms of a disease products disease causing potential does it matter of the product contains one percent asbestos or five -38- Q 175 r Q 176 percent asbestos or twenty percent asbestos I would say yes and no If the exposure levels-- in other words if the total amount of dust you breath are constant remain the same whether the substance is twenty percent or one percent then the risk to the patient would be less with the one percent than the twenty percent But there is no relationship to the exposure level and that's all varied then it almost doesn't make any difference what the percent content is Why not The lung selectively captures the asbestos fibers and it rejects the asbestos fibers and clears them out of the lung but it will keep the asbestos fibers And it takes very little asbestos actually to cause the disease And you can get almost as much asbestos in your lungs as you need for a full development of asbestosis from a one percent substance as from a twenty percent substance Is every exposure to asbestos a substantial contributing factor to resulting disease MR KIRSHNIR Object to the conclusury nature of the question MR WEINGARTEN Your Honor-- MR WHITE Also the lack of foundation Your Honor MR WEINGARTEN We can lead an expert here in Kentucky Your Honor Nod MR KIRSHNIR There is no foundation MR WEINGARTEN We had about forty minutes of foundation THE COURT Well what is what was the question MR WEINGARTEN I am asking the doctor if every exposure to asbestos is a substantial contributing factor to resulting disease MR WHITE It's also speculation MR KIRSHNIR Your Honor may we approach the bench We have an objection Q 177 A THE COURT overruled about it No. The objection is He can express his opinion Please Doctor do you recall the question I have forgotten it THE COURT I think he is qualified to Q 178 express an opinion I have forgotten your question I'll ask it again Doctor Is every exposure to asbestos a substantial contributing factor to resulting asbestos disease Yes sir Asbestos is a quantitative disease And it's also a facilitated disease By that I mean that the more fibers allowed into the lung the more parts of the lungs will be damaged therefore more disease will result By the facilitated part I mean that there are certain ie) unpredictable things that these fibers will do like producing cancer And any fiber that gets i h lodged anywhere in the lung theoretically could do NW iy u it Now we don't know that one fiber will do it 2) Maybe you need 10,000 fibers But in facilitatively it has potential to start the process of cancer by just being there that one time iQ 179 All right Doctor I am going to change the area of our interrogation And I would like to take @) you back to the 1949 1950s time period And we're going to talk now about your activities at the Saranac Laboratory You have already told us -41- that you were the director of Saranac from 1954 to 1957. And that you had previously been there on your fellowship in 1949. Okay So that's what we will talk about Now Doctor are you aware of any studies at Saranac in the 1940s time period called the Kalow Studies Yes sir Q 180 And Doctor who was the client of the Saranac | | .Snead Laboratory who had commissioned the Kalow Studies The scientists Q 181 No the client Which company wanted the Kalow Studies O Oh that was a company known as the Owens Illinois 1 Q 182 Glass Company And do you remember when the Kalow Studies first i Q 183 began The preliminary inquiry from the company came about 1943. The actual exposure of animals on a long term basis only commenced in '46 and continued on through to 1951 | And you didn't arrive at Saranac until 1949 | however Doctor When you arrived there did you have the opportunity to review the work that had been done since 1943 | I saw some of it There was one exposure room that which animals were still surviving from the study and it was called the Kalow Room Q 184 The Kalow Room Yes Yes Q 185 Doctor Schepers based upon what you observed in 1949 and what you understood from your review of the materials that you looked at at that time what was the reason why the Kalow studies were being undertaken Well it was a new product The company had in previous years brought its potential health oO problems to the laboratory for study And when they invented this new product the medical and scientific personnel wanted to know whether there onfo was a potential for human harm through the manufacturing and the use of this material Q 186 What conclusions were reached as a result of the Kalow Studies with respect to the disease causing potential of the product MR PINKLEY I object unless we are talking about Doctor Schepers own conclusions MR WEINGARTEN We are talking about -43- what Doctor Schepers has knowledge of Your Honor MR PINKLEY Well there are several papers That's why I am asking if we could be specific about what we're talking about MR WEINGARTEN On cross examination counsel can be as specific as they want THE COURT What is the question MR WEINGARTEN I am asking the doctor what conclusions were reached in the Kalow studies -) THE COURT The objection is overruled Q 187 B f Doctor The conclusions were that the material is hazardous and that there should be strict hygiene control and health conservation control for those persons likely to be exposed to the dust to detect early detection of disease Q 188 And Doctor what was the hazardous component of the material What-- Q 189 The asbestos that was put into the Kalow And were those conclusions communicated to the Owens Illinois Company -44- 190 191 A Q 192 A Q 193 A Q 194 195 Oh yes Now let's move ahead a few years Doctor to your period as director of the laboratory '54 to 157 At that time did you review any of the old research of the Kalow Studies Yes The medical director of the company and the chief hygienist came-- Which let me back you up Doctor You say the medical director and the chief hygienist of the company What company are you speaking of Owens Illinois And who was the medical director Doctor Shook And who was the chief hygienist Mr. Housard Okay What did what happened with respect to those gentlemen They came to see me as soon as I came to the laboratory and asked me if I would review all of Doctor Gardner's prior experiments And Doctor Gardner was the individual who had been the director of the laboratory for many many years prior to you And he had commenced the study -45- 196 Right Okay So he asked you to review the Gardner experiments Yes And then they asked me if I would write a report for publication concerning what I observed 197 Okay Did you in fact conduct that review as requested by the Owens Illinois Yes I did Q 198 And did you in fact write a report as a result of your review of those experiments xy i Yes I did Q 199 Were you at this time Doctor conducting any of your own experiments concerning Kalow at Saranac 3D Yes Q 200 And what types of work type of work were you doing during this time period yourself Well I was inquiring into certain of the asbestos cancer producing capabilities of chrysotile That was the main focus of the - research then 201 Doctor before we get into some of your findings _ why are animals used in this type of experiment Well first of all they can use many of them in one experiment You can put five hundred animalisn one room expose them simultaneously so -46- tenn poet mec cts tte te O 0 204 Q 205 A Q 206 A Q 207 A 208 Q 209 of the records But I had all of the slides I had all of the tissue materials And the staff performed the tests under the direction of Doctor Gardner and Doctor Vorwald were still at the lab So they had their notes And so virtually everything that I needed Okay Just so I understand there were people still working at the lab who had done the original work with Doctor Gardner in '43 Yes sir Okay And you also said Doctor that the pathology slides were there for you to review Yes Did you in fact review those slides Yes And did you in fact discuss the prior work with the people who had done the work Yes And I think Doctor that you said that as a result of this review of the materials you did | in fact prepare a report Yes Was that report ever published In 1955 -48- Q 210 Okay Doctor I am going to show you a document that's been marked as Plaintiff's Exhibit 10. And if you will just take a moment and look at that and identify it for the members of the jury what that document is Q 211 Yes This is the published version of the paper that I developed out of the Kalow Study Okay Now Doctor when was it published A 1955 in September id Q 212 And in what journal or publication did it appear A The American Medical Association Archives of Industrial Medicine Q 213 Doctor what is the title of the article It's called the Effect of the Inhaled Commercial Q 214 Hydrosilica Dust On Animal Tissues All right Now Doctor I don't see the name Kalow appearing in the title anywhere is that not correct Q 215 No. The company asked me not to use Kalow Although we called everything Kalow And that was a proprietor name and generally in scientific publications one stays away from proprietor names All right So there is no need to use a trade name in a scientific or medical publication -49- Q 216 Q 217 Right But these are in fact the Kalow Studies and this is your review-Yes sir --of the Kalow Studies Yes Q 218 Okay Doctor Schepers what conclusions did you reach in that article concerning the health effects of asbestos in the Kalow product + I concluded that there are two components in the material The hydrous calcium silicate component and the asbestos component I concluded that the hydrous calcium component is harmless and the asbestos is harmful And that the asbestos although incorporated in the hydrous calcium silica which is something like glass comes out of it and is retained by the lung and into parts of the lung and produces asbestosis It also produced oS two other problems One was emphysema and the other was proliferation of the cells on the surfaces of the air spaces around the small air tubials Q 219 What does that lead to What is it called -50- MR WEINGARTEN Yes It's called peribronchial epithelization phonetic Q 220 And Doctor all of these conclusions were printed up in your report Q 221 It's all put in there sir And was this report sent to the Owens Illinois people Yes a)Nea! MR WEINGARTEN Your Honor at this time I move in place Exhibit 10 THE COURT So ordered Q 222 Doctor in addition to sending this report to Owens Illinois and publishing it in the Archives of Industrial Health Journal did you also present this paper to the public at any time Yes We had a conference in Saranac Lake in O 223 Q224 Q224 February of 1955 And is that referred to as the Saranac Symposium Yes And were the Saranac Symposiums given numbers Doctor Schepers Yes That was No. 8 Q 225 This was No. 8 Yes Q 226 And you presented this paper you gave a speech on this-- A Yes Q 227 A Q 228 A --on your findings at that symposium Yes sir Was there anyone in attendance at the 1955 Saranac Symposium employed by Owens Illinois Yes Q 229 A Q 230 A Who was there from Owens Illinois Doctor Shook was there and Mr. Housard was there Okay Yes Doctor Shook and Doctor Housard Q 231 By the way Doctor did Doctor Shook have any editorial position with respect to the journal o) where your paper appeared Yes He was an associate editor of the journal 232 At this 1955 Saranac Symposium Doctor was there anyone there in attendance employed by Owens Corning Fiberglas Company Yes It was Doctor Bishop and there was an engineer I have forgotten his name Q 233 Is that Mr. Black Yes -52- 234 What if you recall Doctor Schepers was Doctor Bishop's position with Owens Corning as of 1955 Why were they there 235 Well what was his job What was Doctor Bishop's position at Owens Corning 236 Oh he was the medical in those days consultant for the ~ company Before the 1955 conference had you previously met with Doctor Bishop oh yes I was doing research for him on Owens 237 Corning Fiberglas Now other than your paper on the Kalow Studies Doctor Schepers were there other papers and presentations made at the 1955 conference besides your own O Several dozen I think Q 238 Were all of the proceedings of the conference published in a booklet or a pamphlet form Yes Q 239 And who published the presentations of the . conference Q 240 A guy in the American Medical Association When was that conference published In 1955 -53- Q 241 And who received copies of the publication Every one of the persons who attended the conference received a copy and all of the companies with whom we had contract relationships I mean . the Saranac Laboratory either past or current And anybody else who wrote and said they would ww like to have a copy Q 242 Doctor Schepers other than your own paper were there any other presentations made at the 1955 we Saranac Conference concerning asbestos and disease Yes There was a paper by Doctor Kenneth Smith the medical director of the Johns Manville oO Asbestos Corporation on the health problems of asbestos employees And there was a reference in Doctor McGlaughlin's paper on asbestos diseases in England as far as I can recall Q 243 Did any of these presentations have to do with asbestos disease in end users of the product as opposed to miners or millers or manufacturers of the product Q 244 The paper by Doctor McGlaughlin definitely does What is an end user Doctor And end user is the person who receives the product made in an asbestos factory and puts it pe me to use like an insulator who would receive insulation material from an insulation manufacturing company and then put it in place Now Doctor Schepers let's move ahead a bit in time And I would like to know if after the 1955 conference the way did what was the formal name of that conference Doctor do you recall We called it the McIntyre Saranac Conference After the 1955 McIntyre Saranac Conference did you have any further involvement with Doctor Bishop of Owens Corning Fiberglas 2) Yes Through to about 1962 that I can recall Finalizing studies that I had made for them on their products Okay And they were primarily interested in fiberglas products at that time is that correct Yes And in fact I think they were interested in the development of the Chevrolet Corvette with a | plastic-- Yes --a fiberglas body Yes -55- Q 250 251 252 253 254 Okay So you consulted with Owens Corning in terms of that particular project I had been studying for them the biological A properties in other words the way animals would react and therefore human beings might react of what is called fiberglas plastic It's like this structure here made of a plastic and glass fibers put into it for strength And they were making motor boats and automobile bodies from that And by 1956 they approached me to add to the studies the study of fiberglas with asbestos instead of glass fibers Okay So they wanted to mix asbestos in with the fiberglas instead of the glass fibers Not the fiberglas but the plastic The plastic Yes Substitute it for the fiberglas And Doctor Bishop of Owens Corning consulted you with respect to that possibility I don't know that it was Bishop from Owens Corning It was somebody Okay Now Doctor at any time during your consultations with Owens Corning in the 1950s or even until 1962 did Doctor Bishop or Mr. Black Q 255 or anyone else from the company ever mention to you that they were selling or distributing or manufacturing the Kalow product No. Nobody did I had a long conference with them in the summer of 1956 at the headquarters near Toledo a whole Granville the afternoon with City them of Granville I discussing this spent project the proposed project of the Corvette body and talked to about twenty people there but nobody mentioned that Nobody mentioned the involvement with the Kalow Now Doctor when you had that conference you said that was in I think the summer of 1956-- Yes --with twenty or twenty Owens Corning people that was at their Granville Ohio facility Yes Okay Doctor what did you tell them with respect to the advisability of mixing asbestos in with the fiberglas product I advised them not to touch asbestos I told them that they had a good product in the form of fiberglas plastic and that they should stay with it and stay away from asbestos - -57- Q 258 Did you tell them why they should stay away from asbestos A Yes It's because of the peculiar property of the asbestos fiber to seek out cells being so small that it could get into cells and produce disease Q 259 wherever it traveled in the body Did you use the Kalow studies that you had previously done to help demonstrate this to the Owens Corning people |A Precisely I used like I said the example of why I knew that I could predict that if you put asbestos into the plastic it would have the same ) effect as the Kalow Q 260 A Did you in fact Doctor use the word Kalow in your discussions with the Owens Corning people Oh yes the way one does it would be to project slides on a screen and show them now this is what Kalow does and so forth and so I used the Q 261 h F ,A terminology all the time Did you give them an example Doctor of any particular type of workmen who would be at risk if they chose to mix asbestos in with the Corvette body Well if an automobile like that is made it would -58- have would be molded it would come out of patterns There would be rough spots there would be some that would have to be sanded to smooth it down to make it look good So that fellow with the sanding machine would be very much at risk because if you have done any sanding yourself you know how much dust that stirs up Now that was intended to be a sports car The likelihood of the sports car crashing at high speed is very good a because it's expensive they wouldn't throw it away they would try and repair it So there would be a garage mechanic who would be assigned the job of -) repairing the damaged fenders and the hood of the car and he wouldn't know of the danger and he would go along there sanding it and polishing it and painting it And incur the risk of breathing a lot of asbestos Doctor do you know or did you know a Mr. M. D. Burch and that's spelled H at Owens Corning Fiberglas Yes He was chief of the personnel relations 0 of the company In fact Doctor was his full title director of personnel and industrial relations of Owens Corning -59- Fiberglas Yes sir BENCH DISCUSSION MR PINKLEY Your Honor may we approach on this document THE COURT Yes MR WEINGARTEN one up also I will bring the other MR PINKLEY Okay Yes It's the same thing MR WEINGARTEN I don't have any problem think what you have got Your Honor I think that counsel's problem is that-- THE COURT Now wait a minute Now what are we talking about MR WEINGARTEN There are two letters that I am going to show Doctor Schepers They have to do with partially with fiberglas and partially with asbestos I think that The Court's ruling is that the fiberglas is not relevant and at this point what I am going to do is ask the doctor to identify the documents to -60- authenticate them and then to discuss the aspect of the documents that deal only with asbestos And then I have no problem with redacting before this goes to the jury anything other than on | page the February two paragraphs-- 6th document ~ these MR PINKLEY Yes MR WEINGARTEN --that the jury I | think should see Plus the-- MR PINKLEY That's fine That's consistent with The Court's ruling MR WEINGARTEN And on the July document it's only the fourth paragraph on the first page MR PINKLEY Let me see I couldn't remember That's right That's right MR WEINGARTEN Okay So then it can be used without objection MR PINKLEY Yes With that agreement . Your Honor that takes care of it THE COURT All right MR KIRSHNIR Your Honor we would request an admonition that these exhibits -61- are not introduced against Keene Corporation THE COURT Are not what MR KIRSHNIR Are not introduced against Keene unless counsel can represent otherwise There has been no evidence that this was published to Keene or to _ its predecessor | MR PINKLEY That's fine THE COURT I am not going to give a special admonition I am keeping track of this END OF BENCH DISCUSSION Doctor Schepers I am going to now show you a document that has been shown to defense counsel and . 7Ne it's been marked for identification purposes as Plaintiff No. 124. And I will just ask you a few very specific questions about that document ---- begin with Doctor is that document on the letterhead of the Saranac Laboratory | | Yes sir | Q265 Q265 And what is the date of the document | | The date | Q 266 The date | " 5 267 Q 268 A Q 269 A Q 270 A Q. 271 A 272 A Q 273 February 6th 1956 MR WEINGARTEN Okay Your Honor I don't know if the microphone is back on Doctor please if you can keep your voice up I think the microphone is still with us But sometimes it-- Okay --leaves a little to be desired I think Doctor you had said that the date of that document is February 6th 1956 That's correct sir And Doctor Schepers who wrote the document I did And to whom was it addressed To Mr. Burch And that's the director of personnel of Owens Corning that we have just discussed a few moments ago Yes sir And it's a four page letter is it not Doctor Yes And was this letter written before or after you had the discussions at the Owens Corning facility outside of Cincinnati No. Before About six months before Q 274 Okay And at page 4 if you look at page 4 of the letter Doctor Schepers Yes Q 275 A Q 272 A Can you read for the jury those portions of the first and second paragraphs on that page that have to do with advice concerning asbestos disease You mean the one that is underlined here I think I have highlighted it so you can find it Yes Q 273 A | Q 274 Right If you could just-I said to them the case of our earlier glass will asbestos and talc studies-- Let me explain these are old documents that have been photocopied many times and they are difficult even for young eyes to read Yes Very much I can fix that Glass and asbestos and talc studies we showed that -- unfavorable results sometimes ensued during the third year of exposure which rather remained in abeyance previously And down here Doctor what conclusion is it I suppose-- I suppose you already know that asbestos is -64- ' 0 i i Q 276 . A ! i _ : Q 277 ii fairly well incriminated as a carcinogen and the asbestos causes lung damage by virtue of the length of its fibers and property it shares with the fiberglas Doctor and what were you telling Owens Corning by those two comments I warned them that they were making a product that is made of long fibers And that although up to that point the glass fiber study had not been shown to have dangerous effects on the animals that was the first paragraph I quoted they shouldn't be completely reassured yet because in the third year results may come which were not present yet Okay So therefore I said wait until we have the full story Then the second part was to introduce the topic of cancer as a potential effect of fiberglas And I introduced that the concept through the reference to asbestos because fiberglas is similar to asbestos in that it consists of fibers of silica in the case of fiberglas sodium silicate in the case of asbestos magnesium silicate What did you mean Doctor by your comment in 1956 that asbestos is fairly well incriminated as a Q 278 Q 279 A Q 280 A Q 281 A Q 282 A Q 283 A carcinogen Well it meant that by that time when I wrote that that more or less everybody accepted the concept that exposure to asbestos entails the risk of developing cancer Now Doctor Schepers I am going to show you another document that has already been looked at by defense counsel and this has been labeled for identification purposes as Plaintiff's 120 And again Doctor is that on the letterhead of the Saranac Laboratory Yes It is again And who is the person who signed and wrote that particular letter That's again myself That's you I did And who was this letter written to Doctor Schepers Again to Mr. Burch The same individual we have been talking about Yes And he's at Owens Corning Yes -66- a] Q 284 And this document is dated July 27th 1956 That's correct Q 285 I am going to spare your eyes on this one Doctor And let me just read to you a portion of the letter from the fourth paragraph where you make the following statement glass is a silicate In our various experiments in this laboratory silicates with one exception have been found to be relatively harmless compared to materials containing ----- . The exceptional form is asbestos Our interest in the glass fiber arose out of the fact that it is fibrous and we had previously shown in this laboratory that asbestos dust is harmful only if inhaled in a fibrous state My question to you Doctor Schepers is what did you mean by that oN aed comment to Owens Corning That I explained to them through that statement that asbestos causes a disease diseases oO because it is a fiber If you pulverize asbestos if you ground it up so that all of the particles are as short as they are long then it doesn't produce disease Now that's a hard thing to do _ due to the the laboratory cases you can put a quantity of asbestos in what is called a volnur -67- aa 0 Aim Q 286 |A . Q 287 phonetic and just set the thing to rolling for five or six weeks and at the end of that time you can float the materials in water and any of the residual fibers would stay behind the particles would drop down They'd still be chemically asbestos you could test for that Then if you put that into the fiber asbestos into animals no effect follows So it's not chemically active It produces the disease because of its shape When it's inhaled Yes MR WEINGARTEN And at this time Your Honor I would like to move in subject to the redaction we discussed at the bench i | | Plaintiff's Exhibit 120 and 124 MR PINKLEY As redacted no objection i | I have got one more question Doctor Schepers despite the meeting that you had with the Owens Corning people in the summer of 1955 or 156 and also the letters that you wrote to them that we just discussed in February and July of 1956 at any time after those discussions or letters did anyone from Owens Corning tell you that they were selling or manufacturing or distributing any products -68- A ; | " : tl i i | f containing asbestos No. I was completely unaware of that MR WEINGARTEN Those are all of the questions that I have Your Honor And I think defense counsel has requested a short recess THE COURT All right We will accommodate them We'll take a ten minute recess Ladies and Gentlemen Now please remember my admonition that you're not to let that your not to talk to anyone about this case and you're not to let anyone talk to you about the case and you're not to talk to each other about it until it's submitted to you RECESS THE COURT Let the record show that all members of the jury all parties and all counsel are present And you may proceed MR PINKLEY Honor Thank you very much Your CROSS EXAMINATION BY MR PINKLEY Q Good morning Doctor Schepers I am Harold Pinkley I introduced myself to you this morning but we have met before is that right Doctor Yes sir In Brunswick Georgia Okay I think if everything goes well Doctor I hope we can get you out of here before lunch time And so let's get started if we can That will be good You told the jury earlier in your direct examination that you have testified in asbestos cases many times is that right That's correct And I think that at least as when I talked to you back in January that was in excess of 100 times in actually in court testimony is that right At least that yes Okay And you have testified by deposition more than 200 times in asbestos cases . More than 500 | More than 500. Okay And you have testified in | many different states in this country have you not Doctor Schepers -70- A Q 10 A Q 11 12 All except two Okay So that's eight of them that you have testified in is that right Forty yes MR PINKLEY Okay I think there are eight states There are fifty Right So you started in this in about 1979 is that right Doctor Schepers Yes And that was after you had met with a plaintiff's lawyer and -- person who was representing plaintiffs in asbestos cases-- Yes --and then you started testifying right Yes Okay Now it's true Doctor Schepers isn't it that even though you have retired you do make a charge for each one of these trips and the testifying that you do is that right Yes There is a charge All right Now Doctor Schepers there are a number of substances are there not that can cause disease inhumans if the people are exposed at -71- high levels A Yes 2 13 And that has been known for a long time has it not A For a long time yes Q 14 Okay One of medical sciences primary occupations in this century has been least with regard to asbestos has been to try to determine what level of exposure would cause disease is that right wo Doctor Schepers A Yes Q 15 . Okay Now let's talk about some of the medical articles in which that endeavor is traced in history Okay Do you remember an article published in 1930 by Doctor Meriwether and Mr. Price A Yes 1: Q 16 ;A Q 17 I think I have it right here as a matter of fact It's got little stickies all over it AndI was told a report on the effects of asbestos dust on the lungs and dust suppressioinn the asbestos industry right Yes sir And Doctor Meriwether was his majesty at that A Q 18 A Q 19 A Q 20 A : Q 21 |A Q 22 time there was a king is that right It was the-- His majesty medical inspector of factories Yes The equivalent of OSHA and NIOSH yes Okay Now Doctor Meriwether went into asbestos textile manufacturing plants in order to study the people who worked there is that right Yes Okay And he limited his study the statistical part of his study did he not to people who were exposed to I think he said pure or almost pure asbestos is that right I don't know you can say almost pure because you know that's a nebulous concept But it was a high concentration of asbestos in the textile factories All right In fact on Page 6 if you would like to I will let you follow it Just read it You can just read it Okay Doctor Meriwether says the manufacturing process is effective far more and less sharply in the two groups one those in which there is exposure to pure asbestos or asbestos mixed with a very small percentage of cotton or other vegetable -73- fibers Yes Right And those are the people to which he limited his statistical survey Yes Q 24 Right Okay And Doctor Meriwether did indeed find the existence of asbestosis in some of those people right Yes he did ) Q 25 And one of the recommendations that Doctor Meriwether made was that there ought to be dust control in those factories Yes Q 26 In fact he mentioned in his report did he not that it appeared that if you kept the dust level down to that experienced by the spinners that there would expect that there would be very few if any cases of asbestosis is that right That was a hopeful statement that he made Okay And in fact the very next year 1931 there were asbestos regulations enacted by British Parliament is that right Yes Q 28 And they covered only people who were working in -74- A Q 29 A Q 30 A 31 32 33 34 Q 35 the kind of plants that Doctor Meriwether studied-- Yes --that is asbestos textile plants right Yes Okay Now in 1935 Doctor you remember know who Doctor Lanza was k Yes I think you mentioned him in your direct In fact Doctor Lanza has a building named after him at the New York University Medical School is that right Yes Okay He is one of the pioneers of occupational medicine in this country would that be fair Yes Okay Doctor Lanza undertook a study published in 1935 published in the Public Health Report called effects of the inhalation of asbestos dust on the lungs of asbestos workers Yes And once again Doctor Lanza studied asbestos textile manufacturing plants is that right Right Right Okay And he too foundFor that study -75- Q 36 Q 37 38 I am sorry Doctor Lanza studied all sorts of asbestos workers But for that paper that is-For this study --a textile paper Okay And he too found the existence of some ~ cases of asbestosis right Yes 39 And he too recommended that a possible solution was the reduction in the dust levels Yes Q 40 Okay Now we have already We have already heard some I think about Doctor Dressen's report You are familiar with that are you not Doctor Yes sir 41 Okay It's a fairly thick thing Does that look like it to you Doctor 180 pages Q 42 Okay I have something like that A study of asbestosis in the asbestos textile industry Yes 43 And it was written primarily by Doctor Valdimar Dressen Yes -76- 44 Q 45 Q 46 47 Q 48 PY Q 49 A Q 50 Q 51 At the direction of the Surgeon General for the Public Health Service-- Yes --is that right A large part of it was written by Doctor Sayers But Dressen was the head of the department in Public Health So his name would come first Okay Since he was the head-- Yes --he got to be on the top But Doctor Sayers is down here at the bottom Yes Okay In fact this report was sort of summarized a year later and published in the regular medical literature and Doctor Sayers came first is that right Yes Okay Yes But it essentially said the same thing Now is it true Doctor that Doctor Dressen studied asbestos textile manufacturing workers in North and South Carolina primarily Yes Okay Now asbestos textile manufacturing workers 1 -77- both here and in Great Britain a lot of those people were exposed to raw asbestos coming in off of trains or trucks or whatever it was they used and they were put into parting machines and spinning machines and whatever else they had in order to make asbestos textiles like cloth and tape and thread and stuff like that is that right Not entirely You shouldn't use the word a lot because that doesn't really say how many MR PINKLEY All right At the start of the process the asbestos would come in bags and would be delivered at a delivery shed of some sort-- MR PINKLEY Yes --and then somebody would pick it up from there and 0 feed it into a shoot-- MR PINKLEY Yes --at the beginning of the process And then from there on it's an enclosed process And then the asbestos becomes fiberized and it gets mixed in with cotton further along And it goes through a long process Now people at the shoot unloading the material from the bags they would be exposed to 100 percent asbestos -78- MR PINKLEY Yes Q 52 But as the factory process goes on further along the numbers of people who would be exposed to 100 percent asbestos would be less and less-- Because the-- Q 53 --because it gets mixed with cotton See I am sorry Doctor I didn't mean to interrupt you Yes Q 54 It would be true to say wouldn't it Doctor that several of the occupations involved in the asbestos textile manufacturing process would be exposed to very high levels of particular matter including asbestos and whatever cotton there was Yes you can say that Q 55 Okay Now Doctor Dressen I think we said have already talked a little bit about but in his summary he said that below five million particles | 0) per cubic foot they found only three doubtful | cases of asbestosis is that right | Yes Q 56 And so he recommended as a tentative guide for a tentatively safe level I guess if you want to call it that five million particles per cubic ' ro SH 57 58 KH Q 59 A Q 60 A Q 61 foot is that right Yes Okay Now are you familiar Doctor with a paper called Industrial Hygiene and the Navy in national defense published in War Medicine by Captain Ernest Brown published in 1941 Let me see if I can-- MR PINKLEY May ? THE COURT Sure No I don't know this paper THE COURT Please feel free to do that in your-- MR PINKLEY Thank you Your Honor Okay We'll just skip by that one You are familiar with a health survey of pipe covering operations in constructing naval vessels That is-- This is the Fleischer report - Yes sir That I know of _ Okay This in fact for the jury I think it's Fleischer Viles Gaze and Drinker Yes Okay They studied people who were putting asbestos containing pipe covering and block -80- oN ~? Q ' Q 62 Q 63 Q 64 tl Q 65 on board ships during World War II is that right Yes Okay And they made certain conclusions did they not Well let me ask you this first I will withdraw that question They said did they not Doctor and I will be glad to show it to you if you would like in general we feel that dust counts below five million particles per cubic foot by centimeter and that's a method of counting the dust right Yes Five cubic centimeters indicate good dust control do you recall their saying that part I remember that sir All right Now they had some conclusions over here on the last page of their article do you remember those Doctor Yes Did they conclude this Doctor that their first conclusion was the character of asbestos pipe covering industry on board naval vessels is such that conclusions drawn from other asbestos industries Yes such as textiles cannot be applied-- -81- ge e 66 Q 67 Q 68 Q 69 70 Q 71 --do you recall that Yes Okay Two they said the operations of bandsaw cutting grinding cement mixing and installation on board ship should be equipped with exhaust ventilation to keep the total dust concentration - low Yes That's perfectly well in line with what Doctor Meriwether and Doctor Lanza and Doctor Dressen had all recommended right Yes Okay And the third conclusion was the incidence of asbestosis among pipe coverers pipe coverers are the same as insulators right Yes Okay Pipe coverers in the shipyard study was low 0.29 percent or three cases out of 1,074 In view of the nature of shipyard pipe covering work this low incidence is not surprising that's what they concluded right Yes And lastly they concluded that since each of the three cases of asbestosis had worked at asbestos pipe covering in the ship yards for more than twenty years-- Yes --it may be concluded that such pipe covering is not a dangerous occupation Is that what they concluded 4 Yes MR PINKLEY Okay Depends on what they meant by such Q I am sorry I can say yes You and I can agree what they meant by such ") The type of pipe covering they were talking about in the paper as people who were using amosite pipe covering to cover-- A No. I-- Q Wait Let me finish my question A Okay Q And then you can answer all you want Okay A Yes Q They were talking about were they not individuals who were working in the naval ship yards during World War II using amosite asbestos pipe covering on board ship right 78 79 Q 80 A Q 81 A Q 82 Q 83 Yes MR PINKLEY Okay Provided we know that it's amosite that we're talking about Right Yes And amosite is a type of asbestos Yes MR PINKLEY Right Okay Now also in 1946 and you mentioned this a little bit previously an organization called the American Conference of Governmental Industrial Hygienists men Yes This was not the first time they had met was it Doctor No. The organization had been going on for awhile That's correct Okay They met and they adopted did they not what they called maximum permissible concentrations of various kinds of things Yes Yes There is a whole list of them here right Yes -84- Q 84 And included in that was a group 3 mineral dusts Yes Q 86 And it says asbestos five million particles per cubic foot do you recall that Doctor Yes Okay It is true isn't it Doctor Schepers that the ACGIH did not recommend a lowering of the maximum permissible concentration or TLV as it later became to be known until 1968 That's correct Okay And you never wrote anything in published medical literature criticizing the ACGIH or the five million particles per cubic foot standard did i 4 iH i Q 88 you Doctor No. I didn't see anything Okay Now was is it true Doctor that with regard to asbestos pipe coverers that is insulators the next epidemiologic study to appear 0 after the Fleischer report in 1946 was Doctor Selikoff's work that appeared in this volume Q 89 Yes sir This is a compilation of the papers that were presented at the 1964 conference called the Biological Effects of Asbestos right Right 90 And this was published on December 31 1965 and began to be disseminated-- Yes sir 91 --to libraries and to other people who wanted to read it in this country in 1966 Yes sir 92 Okay Now Doctor Selikoff's article called the Occurrence of Asbestosis Among Insulation Workers in the United States right Yes 93 And he wrote that with Doctor Jacob Churg who was a pathologist at Mt. Sinai Yes Q 94 And Doctor E. Cuyler that's R Hamlin right A An epidemiologist mathematician 0 Q 95 Right He worked for the American Cancer Society A Q 96 Right Okay Now they start this article off do they not Doctor Schepers by talking about how one should not refer to asbestos workers just as asbestos workers One should separate out the -86- Q 97 Q 98 Q 99 Q 100 various occupations is that right Yes And that's because each of those occupations has different exposures to various kinds of asbestos is that right Doctor Yes Okay Now they say on page 140 do they not Doctor and again I'll be glad to let you look along if you like The only large scale survey of asbestos insulation workers was undertaken in the U. S. by Fleischer and others in 1945 the Fleischer report right Yes And that's Okay They found only three cases of asbestosis and concluded that asbestos pipe covering of naval vessels is a relatively safe operation-- Yes Right Okay Do they they go on to say do they not Doctor on page 142 that the measurement of dust exposure to insulation workers had shown and in concluding their own work that those people that is insulation workers were exposed to dust levels that were generally within the five million particle standard -87- i il , A O 101 A Q 102 Q 103 104 105 That's what they said That's what they said Yes And what do they say Such counts that have been available made during work engaged by men studied by us have some shown a range similar to the published accounts Yes Okay Now he sets his hypothesis next doesn't he That is what he is trying what he did the study to prove or disprove We undertook the study that questioned whether asbestos exposure ruling insulation work in the U. S. was associated with the hazards of asbestosis and its complications right Yes Okay Yes And then he goes on to find that it-- --does present such a hazard right Now at the concluding part of his paper Doctor Selikoff here on page 151 says scattered case reports have previously been recorded of neoplasms now that's cancerous right Yes -88- Q 106 Of neoplasms among insulation workers including both lung cancer and mesothelioma- Yes Q 107 --of both the pleura that is the lining of the chest and the peritoneal the lining of the abdominal cavity Yes Q 108 Okay A lung cancer has also been reported in a workman in a factory making asbestos insulation Yes Q 109 However these reports while interesting and valuable could not establish an association between the two conditions is that what Doctor Selikoff said That's what he said yes -- Q110 Q110 Okay Now you're familiar are you not Doctor with a paper by J. Leroy Balser and W. Clark Cooper that appeareidn 1968 in the American Industrial Hygiene Association Journal Yes Q 111 They confirmed did they not Doctor that ship board insulators the people whom they studied were indeed exposed to asbestos at levels generally below that of the five million particle per cubic foot standard is that right Well you shouldn't say that then I can say yes You should say that Q 112 They did say that did they not Doctor But I don't agree that is right Q 113 Okay Well let's just look at what they said They say on page 227 do they not the breathing zone dust levels found in industrious operations observed were not as high as the incidents of ) pneumoconiosis may have lead us to expect Some sample areas exceeded the present threshold limit value recommended by the ACGIH However these samples were not for extended periods of time Although we attempted to sample the dustiest operations the time weighted averages for dust samples containing asbestos would probably not exceed the TLV in most situations even on ships This conforms to findings by Fleischer and others by Mar who just published the previous year right Well-- --I am sorry the previous year that Doctor Selikoff-- Yes -90- Q 115 A --1963 And by Lathoric and Sanderson and to recently reported findings by Farris who last year reported studies in the same shipyard earlier appraised by Fleischer Yes Q 116 A Q 117 So that's what they said right That's what they said Okay Now this five million particle standard that was put out by the ACGIH that was adopted by several states in this country was it not Doctor Schepers Yes About the number Q 118 Including Ohio where Owens Corning is headquartered A Q 119 A and Berlin New Jersey where OCF-- Yes --made Kalow at one time Yes Q 120 Okay You did some work and you have already discussed some of it with Mr. Weingarten You did some work on asbestos in the 1950s right . Yes e) 121 And you published the article that's been introduced into evidence right Yes -91- Q 122 Now I think you have previously testified have you not Doctor that you considered Kalow to be an improvement over the previously existing high temperature insulation products Yes Q 123 Because it created less dust when it was ~ manipulated by the workmen Correct 124 Okay Now once again those studies that were done at Saranac Lake were animal studies Yes 125 These animals were not exposed to five million particles per cubic foot of asbestos dust were they Doctor That now have reason to doubt and it will sound like double talk because the figures are in my paper But it's-- 126 Well what does the paper say first Then you can oO explain it 127 I am sorry What does the paper say How-- I think the paper gave only the dust count in the room And that I think was 126 million particles per cubic foot. -92- Q 128 126 million particles Okay But that was not what the animals breathed because you have to also measure it at the cages and apparently the paper left that out 129 I see You have reviewed the interim reports and the final report that were submitted to Owens tJ * Illinois have you not Doctor Yes Q 130 Q 131 Q And those all say that the dust counts in the inhalation room averaged and the numbers varied but somewhere between 115 and 125 even up to 150 million particles per cubic foot Yes Okay week And that was for five and a half days a A il iH Q 132 Right For the lifetime of the animals A Right 2 Q 133 Okay Now when you published the article it you didn't find any cancers in those animals . is that right Doctor Q 134 Yes No. In fact I hesitate to read the whole sentence because it's full of words that I cannot pronounce 1 -93- but let me try This change produced a microscopic sectional effect resembling multiple adinomotosis phonetic Yes Q 135 A --but as there is no lack of differentiation of the cellular components no neoplastic change could be - postulated Yes Q 136 And that means you didn't see any cancers wy, A I couldn't decide whether it was cancer Q 137 Okay Now when you finished reviewing the Kalow dust studies you told Owens Illinois did you not that if the dust exposures were kept below five million particles per cubic foot that would be a reasonable safe working environment Yes Q 138 And you told them that because you believed it to be true is that right Doctor Yes Q 139 Q 140 And that was the perception not only of you but also of a number of other scientists at that time Of other people we have mentioned That's right And that remained the perception of many in the medical community who were concerned -94- Q 141 Q 142 Q 143 about this up until 1967 or '68 Yes Okay In fact with respect to insulation workers that was the state of the art up until 1967 or '68 is that right State of the art was invented during this litigation I think But you know we didn't use that term but you might apply it I suppose So but the answer to the question is that was : the state of the art up until 1967 or 168 Yes Okay You would agree that there was a reasonable body of medical authorities up until at least '67 or '68 who believed that if you kept the dust below five million particles per cubic foot that that was a reasonably safe working environment Yes Okay Now and just so we understand Doctor Marr Doctor Selikoff and Doctors Balzer and Cooper told us that insulators by and large were exposed to less than five million particles per cubic foot right Shipyard insulators MR PINKLEY Right raed ' 145 Q 146 Q 147 A Q 148 A Q 149 A 150 151 Their papers only refer to shipyard workers Okay Now when you came to or when you went to Granville Ohio in 1956 to talk to the Owens Corning people about the Corvette bodies Yes Owens Corning wasn't making Kalow at the time ~ were they-- I don't know that-- --did you know that I didn't know that then litigation process I learned it through this MR PINKLEY Okay I understand they started making it in '58 In 1958 Yes So they weren't even making the product then right They were selling it but they weren't making it Okay Was there anybody at your meeting that was involved to your knowledge in the high temperature insulation products Not that I know of Okay There were people who were involved in fiberglas and trying to make the Corvette bodies -96- Q 152 Q 153 Q 154 Yes Okay we've talked a little bit about Doctor Hammond do you recall that Doctor talking about Doctor Hammond Yes You are aware are you not Doctor that this same Sad Doctor Hammond contributed a chapter to a book called Pulmonary Carcinoma edited by Mayer and Mayer in 1956 Yes And he wrote a chapter called environmental and occupational factors And he says although lung cancer has been reported in autopsies of asbestotic lungs there are at present too few cases and too little epidemiologic data to establish a significant relationship Interpretation of associations are complicated by the differing compositions associated materials and conditions of exposure in the various parts of the world The data at present are suggestive but inference as to causal relationship is not warranted Do you recall Doctor Hammond saying that in 1956 No. I don't recall that But I know that sort of thing he retired -97- Q 156 Q157 Q157 Q 158 Q 159 Okay In fact Doctor Hammond in a discussion at the conference in 1964 followed up on that didn't he Yes He said I believe that there was hardly anybody a few years ago who would have suspected that there was a lung cancer risk in this group of insulation workers These men were not asbestos weavers nor asbestos miners and nobody at that time had suggested an increased risk at all for insulation workers Doctor Hammond said that at the conference did he not Yes And you were there when he said it right Doctor Yes Okay Okay In fact in 1964 at that same conference and it may have been in the same session you made a comment too didn't you Doctor Schepers Yes You said now this was 1964 it was nine years after the publication of the Kalow study and the medical literature that didn't say anything about cancer right -98- Yes Q 160 Eight years after the letter to Mr. Burch that said asbestos was a carcinogen Yes Q 161 You said my first impression is that there now is less certainty that asbestos insulation in am asbestos inhalation is associated with pulmonary neoplasm that there was ten or twenty years ago Doctor would you agree with me that medical knowledge changes over time That we know more now than we did ten years ago That's true MR PINKLEY Thank you very much Doctor Those are all of the questions I have for you right now 0 MR WEINGARTEN Is there any other cross examination MR KIRSHNIR I have no cross examination for Keene Your Honor MR WEINGARTEN I have a few questions on redirect if I might Your Honor And I think we can still get everybody out by noon -99- ' BY MR WEINGARTEN REDIRECT EXAMINATION Q Doctor Schepers Doctor Hammond was not an M.D. was he No. He was a statistician Okay He was a PhD doctor t I think so yes Doctor Mr. Pinkley read to you from your comments at the 1965 conference Can you put those in context for the jury and explain to the jury what . you meant by those statements Would you say that again Sure Let me come up Doctor Mr. Pinkley read to you from the Selikoff conference in 1965 your statement that your first impression is that there was less certainty that asbestos was associated with pulmonary neoplasm than there was ten or twenty years ago What were you referring to when you made those comments Doctor Well this is about the issue of how certain we are I was saying that in ten years ago we were absolutely certain But now conditions have changed There was no longer the same heavy exposures to asbestos and methods of control being -100- , soy Nene introduced so that there was less exposure So we had less evidence and that is really what that meant We had less evidence now because conditions have changed And that's what you were talking about in that comment if Yes Doctor the five million particle per cubic foot measurement was never meant as a control against cancer or mesothelioma was it No. It only pertains to disabling asbestosis Not to cancer or any other is no number for cancer control Now , Q 7 Mr. Pinkley asked you about the findings of cancers in the Kalow studies Doctor do you recall those questions that he asked you . Yes And in fact were there cancers found in the mouse the mice studied by Doctor Gardner Oh yes Doctor Gardner had found that eight percent of the mice that had breathed chrysotile fibers had developed cancers of the lung Have you done anything Doctor recently to examine the pathology slides that were looked -101- at in the 1940s by Doctor Gardner Yes Q 10 What have how have you done that and what have you done I found the original Doctor Gardner notes in his own handwriting in a box And I found some of the slides that had been selected for preservation And so I've had an opportunity in the past year to study those Ne The slides as well as the notes The original things from fifty years ago And in reviewing those slides did you confirm that there were indeed cancers found by Doctor Gardner No question about it Q 13 Doctor Schepers is there any difference between the lungs of an insulator or a pipe coverer or a plumber or a lawyer or a judge or anybody else No. All lungs are the same MR WEINGARTEN Thank you Doctor Schepers that's allI have MR PINKLEY Your Honor I have a couple of things -102- } BY MR PINKLEY RECROSS EXAMINATION Q This question of Doctor Gardner's mice me come up there mice-- The question of Doctor Gardner's Yes Q2 A Q3 A Q Q A --what he actually found were adenomas right Doctor Schepers No. No. Those are non- They were carcinoma Wait just a second Those are not malignant tumors that Doctor Gardner found as he reflected in his 1948 report is that right No. No. The opposite He says they were malignant cancers They were adenomas No. No. No. No. Q Which report are you talking about A I am telling you what his own notes show Q This is not published in anything A Adenocarcinoma Q This is not published anywhere A No. No. His notes-- -103- Q 10 And this is not reflected in the reports that he submitted to anybody He never got around wrote a letter to the sponsor saying I am amazed to find that eighty percent of these animals have developed cancers Have you seen that letter No Doctor Schepers I have never even heard of it before :) Well I am referring to it Mr. Weingartner asked me was what did his own notes say And he 11 described the cancers as this is an adenocarcinoma this is a laomiocarcicoma phonetic this is such and such these are all malignant tumors All right Now Doctor Gardner did studies with other kinds of asbestos did he not In fact he did some studies for another group of asbestos manufacturers starting in the late or mid 1930s Yes i; Q 12 i fl And he reported on those in his papers that were submitted in the late 1940s is that right MR WEINGARTEN Your Honor at this point I am going to object in that we are getting beyond the scope of the redirect examination -104- MR PINKLEY Your Honor these are the very studies that Doctor Schepers is testifying about THE COURT Overruled MR PINKLEY Thank you Are these for the company THE COURT I want to remind counsel respectfully now I don't want to get into a debate between you and the witness MR PINKLEY Very well Your Honor I will shut this down real quick 13 You are familiar are you not Doctor Schepers that Doctor Gardner did research for other asbestos manfacturers in the 1930s and 1940s Yes And he submitted reports reports Have you seen those Yes Yes He sent reports to the companies 15 Okay And in one of those reports it says something about eighty percent of the mice showing adenomas right do you recall that No. No adenomas adenocarcinomas Carcinomas-- 16 The report says adenomas does it not -105- ' ) fasNae Q 17 Q 18 MR WEINGARTEN Your Honor this is again-- I don't remember that report MR PINKLEY Okay THE COURT Wait a minute Well you have asked him He has asked the He can answer ~ same question it again again Doctor MR WEINGARTEN He is arguing with the witness Your Honor THE COURT Well I don't know-- MR PINKLEY I don't mean to be Your Honor THE COURT Yes I think he's asked it contrary to what you said But you can ask the question once more if you want to clear it up now and get a final report from him But statement Okay In that report do you know which one we are talking about The Kings Point Kings Float Asbestos Document Apparently I don't know what you are talking about Okay Well then we are not going to-I just know about the cancer report and you're -106- Q 19 A Q 20 A Q 21 A 22 Q 23 24 talking about an adenoma report I think that's somebody else you're quoting I am talking about me make sure I understand You are not familiar with Doctor Gardner's work on the Kings Float Asbestos that he reported on in 1948 and reported an eighty percent incidence ~ in mice-- oh no No. Wait just a second You're totally wrong --of adenomas Are you familiar with that The Kings Float study was finished in 1931 So there was no Kings Float study after that There were some other studies after that in addition right Doctor Schepers No. No. That's wrong That's all of them No. It's completely wrong The Kings Float study was completed in 1931. And there was no further report on the Kings Floats after '31 No. I am sorry Doctor Schepers We're misunderstanding each other After the Kings Float study was completed there were other studies on other asbestos products-- -107- A Yes Chrysotile Q Okay Even before the Kalow project started A Oh yes Separate from Kalow Q Exactly That's the one I am talking about Are you familiar with that study A Yes ~~ In that study Doctor Gardner issued a report in 1948 showing that there was an eighty percent incidence of adenomas in the mice do you remember that one No. Thank you very much I am just asking you if you remember it Doctor No. I don't remember it THE COURT Well he may may explain your answer that he doesn't remember it MR WEINGARTEN Please explain your answer Doctor MR PINKLEY Well if he doesn't just a second If he doesn't remember there is nothing to explain Your Honor THE COURT Well we'll leave that up to the witness MR PINKLEY Okay That's fine -108- REDIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR WEINGARTEN Please explain Doctor These reports are not published reports they are documents created of the research by Doctor Gardner to the sponsors +n: The sponsors of the research was a consortium of asbestos manufacturers and varieties of companies And the reports were periodic reports once every quarter And in 1943 Doctor Gardner's report for the first time mentioned cancer And in that report he said I 0 had previously-- MR PINKLEY Your Honor excuse me H am sorry Doctor Schepers This is a letter that he is talking about that Doctor Gardner wrote and it's hearsay and I object to it OQ THE COURT Well overruled MR PINKLEY Your Honor it's not a medical report It's a letter THE COURT The objection is overruled MR WEINGARTEN Thank you Your Honor MR PINKLEY Thank you Your Honor -109- ' PY Q6 A Please continue Doctor In this report to the sponsors Doctor Gardner stated I had previously not thought of cancer as a particular problem with dust diseases But now I have made the discovery that eighty percent of the mice exposed to chrysotile dust in particular experiment negates the experiment evidence about cancer of the lung And that's all it says And then it goes on and provides the individual descriptions for each one of those mice describing the kind of cancer that he had found And chrysotile dust is asbestos dust THE COURT Well now I think he has answered I am still on redirect Your Honor dust-- Chrysotile THE COURT Well this is redirect MR WEINGARTEN Yes redirect I just want to clarify You use the phrase chrysotile dust Doctor that's cancer of asbestos Yes This is chrysotile only Thank you But that's asbestos That's asbestos MR WEINGARTEN That's all I have Your -110- oO ' Honor THE COURT Doctor you're excused Thank you FURTHER THIS DEPONENT SAITH NOT -111- STATE OF KENTUCKY ) COUNTY OF FRANKLIN I Melody Curtis a Notary Public in and for the state and county aforesaid do hereby certify that the foregoing testimony was taken by me at the time and place and for the purpose stated in the caption that the witness was duly sworn before giving his testimony that said proceeding was taken down in shorthand writing by me and later reduced to typewriting under my direction The foregoing One Hundred Eleven 111 pages of typewritten matter constitute a true and correct record of all proceedings Witness my hand and notarial seal this 7th day of January 1994 Notary Public State of Kentucky at Large My commission expires 6/13/96 -111-