Document n9nLpZRD0YdgdGVLeB0jbZL98

FILE NAME: Calaveras (CALV) DATE: 1999 DOC#: CALV001 DOCUMENT DESCRIPTION: Legal -T ria l Transcript with BC Notes (p(e f & ^ Ml -y e ! ^ S y y y ,f S ^ O S / frt; / U S ^ , <CPA * S 2-A. Z^^/lt) \S^sf JSLS^<JS&yl^<H?T- s^4 ^-^'t^2:^L^ / S / & y]/3> / y ^ S P y z y ~L / ^ C S S / z a y ") ^ ____ , 4^ 772- --14-- y ^ S ^ P * tgsisQ*^*i f ^ y w t /?v T^* 4 ffi y S y S S A/ S ^ ^ y l^ ^ ^ ^ c S / < U < !/ S c S S / S y ^ & z / P A i ~ ^ ( / o / )(r y ) * X r S S S S s ^ s S ^ 75fc> 93) A ^ 2J f e / Z r A r , s 3 & d t & f f i U A J d 4 , ^ jj'i .................... S iS y u y z f' U S < ^ h U U U 3 AArfruvZ S3 USS^yp^/ 9L&-&^^ t- Cpya^de,fS <JS~<- S S TM / J J S ) Ur#zJ&tj ky^y^t,ud-i</ f fay/i ~}^{0 . y j ' o ^ P ' S 7"u<> / ^ >S 3 > } y Sy' S S ) 7/A & S S t tS ySS< S 'US*~S zSS-^^A-' A S j <2j9s S ^ iA % zA x'-.ygj&y^-'O^/itS /T L SS\ c---5**%S / // ''ZA. ' ^ il<? y /frfr^& ^ ^ ijf rrr z%*p^<^czs3_ / ? # ? n/ SL^ < z a A -1\ c r . j? , f * y y zZ'Tj&es^ K ~ j *98' / y f f r 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 1 11 ^12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 2 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 1 IN THE SUPERIOR COURT, STATE OF CALIFORNIA IN AND FOR THE CITY AND COUNTY OF SAN FRANCISCO DEPARTMENT NUMBER 608 BEFORE THE HONORABLE CHARLENE PADOVANI MITCHELL, JUDGE MICHAEL HAAS AND PAMELA HAAS, PLAINTIFF(S) VS, RAYBESTOS-MANHATTAN, INC., ET AL.<.V,r. V,i ;tr " DEFENDANT(S) REPORTER'S TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS MARCH 17, :1999 AND MARCH 18, 1999 -- 000--- appearances ] FOR THE PLAINTIFF: FOR THE DEFENDANT(S >: CALEVARAS ASTESTOS INC. REPORTED BY: WARTNICK, CHABER, HAROWITZ, SMITH & TIGERMAN STEVEN HAROWITZ, ESQ. 101 CALIFORNIA ST. STE 2200 SAN FRANCISCO, CA 94108 ADAMS, NYE, SINUNU, WALKER DOUG WAH, ESQ. . ONE JACKSON PLACE 633 BATTERY STREET, 5TH FL. SAN FRANCISCO, CA 94111 ' f": DEBORAH NEVILLE, CSR #9703 DEBORAH L. NEVILLE CSR 9703 PID00011102 1 1 INDEX OF WITNESSES 2 FOR THE PLAINTIFF DIRECT CROSS REDIRECT RECROSS 3 FOR THE DEFENDANT: 4 GORDON COATS 5 653 708 767 783 799 6 EXHIBIT INDEX 7 8 FOR THE PLAINTIFF: 9 58 DEPOSITION 59 REPORTERS' TRANSCRIPT \V] 10 60 LETTER 3/30/78 " 61 DOCUMENT " " ^ * 11 62A 1/17 - 1/19 1979 63 LETTER 5/16/79 12 64 EARL FLOWERS 65 3/2/79 LETTER 13 66 3/9/79 LETTER 67 DOCUMENT 14 69 t/fe/e^" IS.v 70 5/tij79 CORRESPONDENCE 71 AI LETTER--- 16 72 AIA 9/20/78 ^ 73 DOCUMENT 17 74 NOTICE EXHIBITS THE DEFENDANTi 18 I CHART . 19 -------- - 000" 20 IDEN 710 721 752 '727?i 732 732 742 744 EVID i>- ^ 754 756 757 800 704 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 DEBORAH L. NEVILLE GSR 9703 PID00011103 652 1 SAN FRANCISCO, CALIFORNIA; WEDNESDAY, MARCH 17, 1999 2 THE HONORABLE CHARLENE PADOVANI MITCHELL, JUDGE 3 PROCEEDINGS IN OPEN COURT 4 * * * * * * * * * * 5 THE COURT: 996120. RECORD SHOULD NOTE THAT 6 ALL PERSONS ARE PRESENT. 7 MR. HROWITZ: YOUR HONOR, I BELIEVE THAT WE 8 HAVE AGREED TO CALL A WITNESS OUT OF ORDER BECAUSE OF 9 SCHEDULING. 10 THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. MR. WAH WILL BE. 11 CALLING A WITNESS NOW. LET ME EXPLAIN THAT TO THE 12 JURY. PARTICULARLY SUCH AS THIS WHEN PERSONS ARE COMING 13 FROM OUT OF TOWN AND OTHER PLACES, SOMETIMES IT'S AGREED 14 UPON TO CALL A WITNESS OUT OF ORDER TO ACCOMMODATE THE 15 SCHEDULE OF THE DIFFERENT WITNESSES. SO IN THE 16 BEGINNING OF THIS TRIAL WHEN I PREINSTRUCTED YOU I TOLD 17 YOU THAT THE PLAINTIFF WOULD PUT ON THEIR CASE AND THEN 18 REST THEIR CASE AND THEN THE DEFENSE WOULD PUT ON THEIR 19 SIDE, THAT'S GENERALLY TRUE. WHEN WE CALL A WITNESS 20 OUT OF ORDER, IT MEANS THAT EVEN THOUGH THE PLAINTIFF 21 HAS NOT FINISHED THE CASE IN CHIEF AND RESTED, THE 22 DEFENSE IS GOING TO CALL A WITNESS FROM THE DEFENSE SIDE 23 FOR THOSE SCHEDULING REASONS THAT I JUST EXPLAINED. 24 SO MR. WAH,. YOU MAY PROCEED TO CALL YOUR 25 WITNESS. 26 MR. WAH: THANK YOU, YOUR HONOR: I WOULD CALL 27 AT THIS TIME GORDON COATS. 28 THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. DEBORAH L. NEVILLE CSR 9703 PID0011104 653 1 THE WITNESS: GOOD MORNING, YOUR HONOR. 2 THE COURT: GOOD MORNING. 3 THE WITNESS: GOOD MORNING. 4 GORDON A. COATS 5 CALLED AS A WITNESS ON BEHALF OF THE DEFENSE, 6 HAVING FIRST BEEN DULY SWORN, TESTIFIED AS 7 FOLLOWS: 8 THE COURT: MR. GOATS, WOULD YOU. PLEASE 9 RESTATE YOUR NAME FOR OUR RECORD AND SPELL IT. IO THE WITNESS: MY NAME IS GORDON A. COATS. IX G-O-R-D--0-S. A. C-O-A-T-S. 12 THE COURT: THANK YOU. YOU MAY PROCEED WHEN 13 READY, MR, WAH. 14 DIRECT EXAMINATION 15 BY MR. WAH: 16 Q MR. COATS, WHERE DO YOU LIVE? 17 A. I LIVE IN ORINDA, CALIFORNIA. 18 0* WHAT IS YOUR AGE? 19 A. IN TWO WEEKS X WILL BE 74 YEARS OLD. 20 Q. WOULD YOU DESCRIBE FOR THE JURY, PLEASE, 21 MR. COATS, YOUR EDUCATIONAL BACKGROUND? 22 A. YES. I GRADUATED FROM BERKELEY HIGH SCHOOL IN 23 1943. I WENT INTO THE NAVY UPON GRADUATION AND THEY PUT 24 ME IN WHAT THEY CALL THE V-12 PROGRAM AND THAT WAS A 25 COLLEGE PROGRAM. I WAS SENT TO THE UNIVERSITY OF 26 CALIFORNIA, BERKELEY FOR ONE YEAR AND THEN TRANSFERRED 27 TO UCLA FOR ABOUT A YEAR AND A HALF BECAUSE IN THOSE 28 DAYS IT WAS A TWO AND A HALF YEAR, FOUR-YEAR PROGRAM. I DEBORAH L. NEVILLE GSR 9703 PID00011105 661 1 Q. YOU CALLED H. K. PORTER, IK FACT? 2 A. YES. 3 Q. DID YOU EVER GO SEE THE PROPERTY YOURSELF? 4 A. YES. 5 Q. when did you first go see the property? 6 A. YES, IT WOULD HAVE BEEN IN JULY OF 1975. 7 Q. AND WHAT DID YOU DO WHEN YOU WENT UP THEBE? 8 A. WELL, 1 GOT PERMISSION FROM THE H. K. PORTER 9 PRESIDENT TO VISIT THE PROPERTY AND HE ADVISED ME THERE 10 WAS A MAN UP THERE WHO HAD WORKED FOR THEM PREVIOUSLY 11 WHO WAS MORE OR LESS RETAINED NOW FOR SECURITY REASONS, 12 AND HE WOULD BE GLAD TO RECEIVE ME AND SHOW ME THE 13 FACILITY.. 14 Q. THE MINE WAS NOT IN OPERATION, WAS IT, 15 MR. COATS? 16 A. NO, SIR, IT HAD BEEN SHUT DOWN FOR TWO YEARS. 17 Q. WHAT WAS THE GENERAL CONDITION OF THE 18 PROPERTY? 19 A. I WOULD SAY IT WAS IN DISORDER. NOT THE WAY I 20 WOULD HAVE LIKED TO HAVE SEEN IT. WE HAVE TO REALIZE 21 THERE'S A MINE AND A MILL. IN THE MINE WHERE YOU HAVE 22 THE BIG TRUCKS THEY WERE IN DISREPAIR AND THEY WERE 23 OLD. THE MILL HAD JUST BEEN SHUT DOWN AS IF SOMEBODY 24 TURNED OFF A LIGHT AND THAT WAS THE END. NOBODY HAD 25 DONE ANY CLEANUP OR -- IT LOOKED LIKE A LOT OF WORK HAD 26 TO BE DONE. 27 Q. OKAY. WHAT HAPPENED NEXT WITH REGARDS TO THIS 28 TRANSACTION? DEBORAH L. NEVILLE CSR 9703 PID00011113 1 662 A. I ATTEMPTED TO -- OR 1 DID CONTACT SEVERAL OF 2 MY FRIENDS IN DIFFERENT INDUSTRIES THINKING THERE MIGHT 3 BE INTEREST, BOT I WAS UNSUCCESSFUL IN FINDING ANYONE 4 WHO WOULD EVEN MAKE AN OFFER. 5 Q. WHAT HAPPENED NEXT? 6 A. I CALLED THE PRESIDENT IN AUGUST, .SEPTEMBER, 7 END OF AUGUST '75 TOLD HIM THAT I HAD NOT BEEN 8 SUCCESSFUL IN FINDING A BUYER AND HE SAID WELL, WHY 9 DON'T YOU BY THE PROPERTY. WELL, I TOLD HIM, OF COURSE 10 I DIDN'T HAVE ANY CAPITAL TO BUY SUCH A FACILITY AND 11 THEY SAID WELL, WHY DON'T YOU DESIGN SOME SORT OF A 12 PROPOSAL AND SEE IF WE WILL -- AND WE WILL CONSIDER IT, 13 AND THAT IS WHAT I DID, 14 Q. AND BY PROPOSAL, WHAT DID YOU ENVISION? 15 A. I ENVISIONED PRETTY MUCH THAT WE WOULD BUY THE 16 ASSETS, THAT WE WOULD -- I WOULD HAVE TO RAISE CAPITAL 17 FROM INVESTORS AND THAT THE H. K. PORTER COMPANY HAD TO 18 FINANCE A LOT OF IT, THEY HAD TO TAKE MY NOTES FOR LOT 19 OF IT. 20 Q. DID YOU HAVE AN UNDERSTANDING AT THAT TIME OF 21 WHY THE MINE WAS CLOSED? 22 A. THE ONLY UNDERSTANDING I HAD WAS THE EXPENSES 23 WERE GREATER THAN THEIR REVENUES AND THEY WENT BROKE. 24 Q. UP TO THE TIME THAT -- WELL, STRIKE THAT, 25 MA'AM REPORTER. I 'M SORRY. 26 AT THIS TIME DID YOU BEGIN YOURSELF TO 27 INVESTIGATE OR TAKE A LOOK AT ASBESTOS AND ASBESTOS 28 MINING AND MANUFACTURING ISSUES? DEBORAH L. NEVILLE CSR 9703 PID00011114 663 1 A. ABSOLUTELY, THAT WAS NECESSARY. IN FACT, I 2 HAD DONE SOME OF THAT PRIOR WHEN I WAS CONTACTING OTHER 3 COMPANIES TO ALERT THEM AND FIND OUT WHAT REQUIREMENTS 4 WERE TO REOPEN. 5 Q. OKAY. PRIOR TO THIS INITIAL INVESTIGATION, . 6 PRIOR TO THE TIME THAT YOU DISCUSSED THE ISSUE OF -- 7 STRIKE THAT. 8 WHEN DID YOU BEGIN TO MAKE THESE KIND OF 9 INVESTIGATIONS? 10 A. I WOULD SAY THAT THAT WAS DONE ALMOST 11 IMMEDIATELY AFTER H. K. PORTER GAVE ME THE GO AHEAD TO 12 TRY TO FIND A BUYER. I VISITED THE REGULATORY AGENCIES, 13 AND DID RESEARCH ON CONSUMPTION, WHAT THE PRICING OF THE 14 PRODUCT WAS. .. 15 Q. OKAY. YOU TALK ABOUT REGULATORY AGENCIES, 16 WHAT REGULATORY AGENCIES DID YOU VISIT? 17 A. . THERE ARE MANY. 18 Q. LET'S LIST THEM. 19 A. THE KEY ONES WAS THE OSHA, OCCUPATIONAL SAFETY 20 AND HEALTH ADMINISTRATION. 21 Q. WHERE DID YOU VISIT THEM? 22 A. THEY'RE IN SACRAMENTO. I VISITED THE CAL OSHA 23 PEOPLE. I 'VE VISITED THE MSHA WHICH IS THE MINE SAFETY 24 AND HEALTH ADMINISTRATION WHICH HAS JURISDICTION OVER 25 MINES. AND I VISITED THEM IN ALAMEDA, CALIFORNIA. 26 Q. OKAY. WHO ELSE? 27 A. I VISITED EPA, BOTH THE FEDERAL AND THE STATE 28 OFFICES. THE STATE -- FEDERAL WAS HERE IN SAN FRANCISCO DEBORAH L. NEVILLE CSR 9703 PID00011115 680 1 R. PARDON ME? 2 Q. DID YOU BEGIN HIRING PEOPLE FOR CALAVERAS 3 ASBESTOS? 4 A. YES, WE BEGAN HIRING. 5 Q. WHAT KIND OF PEOPLE DID YOU BEGIN HIRING? 6 A. ? FIRST I NEEDED SOMEONE IN THE OFFICE AS LIKE 7 OUR CONTROLLER, AND FROM OPERATIONS I NEEDED A MILL 8 SUPERINTENDENT, A MINE SUPERINTENDENT, AND A MAINTENANCE 9 SUPERINTENDENT. 10 Q. WERE YOU ALSO HIRING PEOPLE. WITH KNOWLEDGE 11 ABOUT INDUSTRIAL HYGIENE ISSUES? 12 A. YES. 13 Q. AND WHO WERE THEY? 24 A. WE ALSO HAD A MAN, HOYLMAN, BOB HOYLMAN, WHO 15 WAS OUR CERTIFIED HYGIENIST WHO DEVELOPED HIS OWN 26 DEPARTMENT FOR SAFETY AND ENVIRONMENTAL CONTROL. 17 !Q. ANY OTHER PEOPLE? I 18 A. WELL, HE DEVELOPED HIS DEPARTMENT WHICH WAS A 19 GENTLEMAN WHO WAS A SAFETY SUPERVISOR AND A YOUNG WOMAN 20 WHO WOULD TAKE AIR SAMPLING, AND SHE WOULD DO THIS ON A 21 DAILY BASIS. AND THEN SHE WAS TRAINED I MICROSCOPY, 22 AND SHE WOULD READ THE SAMPLES AND PREPARE A REPORT 23 WHICH WOULD GO TO MR. HOYLMAN. 24 . DOES THE NAME -- ARE YOU FAMILIAR WITH THE 25 NAME JOEY TONEY? 26 A. YES, I AM. 27 Q. WHO IS JOEY TONEY? 28 A. WAS OUR SAFETY SUPERVISOR. DEBORAH L. NEVILLE CSR 9703 P1D00011132 681 1 0. DO you KNOW A KATHY FRASIER? 2 A. SHE WAS THE YOUNG WOMAN WHO DID THE 3 MONITORING. 4 Q. DID YOU ALSO HIRE MINERS? 5 A. YES, THAT WAS THE RESPONSIBILITY OF THE 6 SUPERINTENDENT OF THE MINES TO GO OUT AND GET HIS CREW. 7 TRUCK DRIVERS, DRILL OPERATORS FRONT-END OPERATORS. 8 Q. WHO WAS THE SUPERVISOR OF THE MINE? 9 A. MR. FRANCIS NELSON. 10 Q. DID YOU ALSO HIRE A GENTLEMAN NAMED DARYL 11 LARSON? * 12 A. MR. LARSON WAS OUR CONTROLLER. 13 Q. IMMEDIATELY AFTER OCTOBER OF '75, HOW LONG WAS 14 IT BEFORE YOU WENT INTO PRODUCTION OF ASBESTOS ORE? 15 A. I BELIEVE OUR FIRST COMMERCIAL RUN WAS 16 SOMETIME IN JANUARY OF *76. 17 Q. BETWEEN OCTOBER '75 AND JANUARY OF *76, WHAT 18 WAS GOING ON AT THE MINE? 19 A. IN ANTICIPATION OF US GETTING CONTROL OF IT 20 PROPERLY, WE HAD LINED UP ENGINEERING PEOPLE WHO HAD 21 BEEN OUT. AND THEY IMMEDIATELY STARTED TO WORK, TO 22 CLEAN UP THE FACILITIES, PUTTING IN NEW EQUIPMENT AND 23 FIXING ANYTHING THAT THEY THOUGHT HAD TO BE FIXED IN 24 ORDER TO BE IN COMPLIANCE. 25 Q. MR. COATS, LET ME SHOW YOU WHAT'S BEEN MARKED 26 EXHIBIT 21, PLAINTIFF'S EXHIBIT 21. ARE YOU FAMILIAR 27 WITH THAT, MR. COATS? 28 A. YES. THAT IS A BAG WE USED TO PACK ASBESTOS DEBORAH L. NEVILLE CSR 9703 PIDQQ011133 1 OBJECT. THIS IS LEADING. 2 THE COURT; SUSTAINED. YOU CAN ASK THE 3 QUESTION ANOTHER WAIT. 4 MR. WAH: ALL RIGHT. 5 Q. WHAT WERE THE DISEASES THAT CALAVERAS ADVISED 6 ITS WORKERS WERE RELATED TO ASBESTOS EXPOSURE? 7 A. ONE WAS ASBESTOSIS, ONE WAS LUNG CANCER, AND 8 THE OTHER IN VERY RARE INSTANCES COULD BE MESOTHELIOMA. 9 Q. MR. COATS, I'M GOING TO HAND YOU WHAT'S BEEN lO MARKED, THIS ISN'T THE ACTUAL ONE. 11 THE COURT: LET'S USE THE ONE THAT'S BEEN 12 MARKED. 13 MR. WAH: LET'S USE THE ONE -- 14 THE COURT; TELL MR. LACY WHAT THE NUMBER IS. 15 MR. WAH: NUMBER 52. 16 Q DO YOU RECOGNIZE THAT AS A LETTER THAT YOU 17 AUTHORED? 18 A. YES, THAT WAS JUST -- WE JUST OPENED THE MILL, m YES. 20 Q. AND WHO IS DR. SELIKOFF THAT'S REFERRED TO IN 21 THAT LETTER? 22 A. 1 BELIEVE H E 'S PASSED AWAY, BUT DR. SELIKOFF 23 WAS. A WELL-RESPECTED DOCTOR FROM MT. SINAI, NEW YORK 24 HOSPITAL WHO DID A VERS IMPORTANT STUDY ON INSULATION 25 WORKERS, I BELIEVE IT WAS IN NEW JERSEY. 26 Q. WHAT WAS YOUR PURPOSE IN WRITING THIS LETTER 27 TO MR. CHAMBERS? 28 A. MR. CHAMBERS WAS THE CHIEF OF THE DEPARTMENT DEBORAH L.'NEVILLE CSR 9703 PID00011153 703 1 Q. I'M SORRY, PAGE TWO, WHERE IT STARTS PARAGRAPH 2 THREE, RESULTS OF MILL EMPLOYEE EXAMINATIONS. DO YOU 3 SEE THAT? 4 A. RESULTS OF MILL EMPLOYEE EXAMINATION -- YES, I 5 DO HAVE IT, ITEM THREE. 6 Q. YES. DO YOU SEE THAT ON -- MY COPY THERE 7 IS -- 8 A. THAT'S NOT MY HANDWRITING. 9 Q. ALL RIGHT. I WAS JUST TRYING TO FIND OUT. 10 DO YOU KNOW IF STAN HINTON WAS ONE OF THE 11 PEOPLE WHO WAS STUDIED BY DR. SELIKOFF -- 12 A. YES, HE WAS. 13 Q. ARE YOU FAMILIAR WITH THE TERM "PULPABLE BAG"? 14 A. YES, I AM. IS Q. WHAT IS A PULPABLE BAG? 16 A. A PULPABLE BAG WOULD BE OF A PAPER NATURE. OF 17 A CERTAIN TYPE OF PAPER WHICH JOHNS-MANSVILLE 18 EXPERIMENTED WITH. SO THAT INSTEAD OF HAVING TO CUT 19 OPEN THE BAG, THEY COULD THROW THE BAG INTO A BATCH 20 WHERE A BEATER IN A LIQUID, SLURRY, WOULD CAUSE THE BAG 21 TO DISINTEGRATE. 22 Q. AND I ASSUME THAT THEREFORE NO ONE HAD TO OPEN 23 THE BAG, BUT THE BAG JUST WENT INTO WHAT'S BEEN REFERRED 24 TO AS THE SLURRY OR THE MIX? 25 A. THAT'S RIGHT. 26 Q- DID THE BAG WORK? 27 A, NO, IT DID NOT WORK. 28 WHY DIDN'T IT WORK? DEBORAH L. NEVILLE CSR 9703 PID00011155 709 1 MR. WAH THAT YOU BELIEVED IT WAS IMPORTANT THAT THE 2 WORKERS HAVE AS MUCH INFORMATION AS POSSIBLE. 3 A. IN REGARD TO THE HEALTH ASPECTS AND THE 4 SAFETY. S Q. RIGHT. WHY? 6 A. BECAUSE I RAN A VERY HEALTHFUL OPERATION ND I 7 CERTAINLY DIDN'T WANT TO BE THE CAUSE OF ANY OF MY 8 EMPLOYEES DEVELOPING ANY DISEASE RELATED TO ASBESTOS ORE 9 OR ANY OTHER TYPE OF INJURY THAT MIGHT BE CAUSED BY 10 WORKING WITH MACHINERY. __ 11 Q. AND YOU KNEW FOR A WORKER TO EFFECTIVELY 12 PROTECT HIMSELF HE HAD TO HAVE INFORMATION, CORRECT? 13 A. YES, THAT'S TRUE. 14 Q. HAD TO KNOW ABOUT THE THE HAZARDS THAT WERE 15 ASSOCIATED WITH ANY PARTICULAR PRODUCT BEING WORKED 16 WITH, CORRECT? 17 A. THAT IS CORRECT. 18 Q. NOW, LET ME BACK UP A LITTLE BIT. I'M GOING 19 TO GO BACK AND START FROM THE BEGINNING, BUT WE ARE 20 GOING TO START IN 1975, AND I'D LIKE TO TALK TO YOU 21 BEGINNING WITH WHEN YOU FIRST GOT INVOLVED WITH THIS 22 MINE IN CALAVERAS COUNTY. 23 MR. HAROWITZ: AND YOUR HONOR, MAY I HAVE 24 MARKED AS PLAINTIFF'S NEXT IN ORDER A DOCUMENT, IT'S 25 ENTITLED, IT'S A JANUARY 1975 EDITION OF ASBESTOS 26 MAGAZINE. I HAVE SHE ENTIRE MAGAZINE HERE AND I HAVE A 27 COPY OF THE PAGE THAT I WAS INTERESTED IN, AND THAT 28 WOULD BE THE COVER PAGE, AND PAGE 31. DEBORAH L. NEVILLE CSR 9703 PID00011161 710 1 THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. THAT'S PLAINTIFF'S 57 2 (PLAINTIFF'S. EXHIBIT 57 MARKED FOR 3 IDENTIFICATION.) 4 MR. HROWITZ: THANK YOU, AND MAI I APPROACH 5 THE WITNESS, PLEASE? 6 THE COURT: YOU MAY. 7 MR. HROWITZ: 8 Q MR. COATS, YOU WERE A SUBSCRIBER OF ASBESTOS 9 MAGAZINE DURING THE TIME THAT YOU WERE INVOLVED WITH 10 CALAVERAS MINE; IS THAT RIGHT? a _____ _. 11 A. THAT'S RIGHT. 12 Q. OKAY. AND WHEN YOU FIRST BECAME INVOLVED IN 13 LOOKING AT THE ISSUE OF BUYING A MINE, YOU BECAME AWARE 14 OF THIS JANUARY 1975 ADVERTISEMENT FOR THE SALE OF THE 15 CALAVERAS MINE; IS THAT CORRECT? 16 A. NOT AT THAT TIME PERIOD. 17 Q. WHEN DID YOU BECOME AWARE OF THIS? 18 A. IN JULY OF 1975. 19 Q. OKAY. FINE. AND TELL US, WHAT DOES THAT AD 20 INDICATE REGARDING THE SALE OF AN ASBESTOS MINE? 21 THE COURT: MR. HROWITZ, WHY DON'T YOU MOVE 22 BACK A LITTLE BIT? 23 MR. HROWITZ: I 'M SORRY, YOUR HONOR. 24 THE WITNESS: THIS INDICATES THAT THE H. K. 25 PORTER COMPANY OF PITTSBURGH, PENNSYLVANIA BAD FOR SALE 26 A COMPLETE ASBESTOS MINE AND MILL LOCATED AT 27 COPPEROPOLIS, CALIFORNIA. 28 Q. OKAY. DOES IT INDICATE THE AMOUNT OF TONS OF DEBORAH L. NEVILLE CSR 9703 PI DOQ011162 711 1 ORE THAT WERE AVAILABLE AT THAT MINE? 2 A. THEY ESTIMATED THAT THERE WERE APPROXIMATELY 3 30 MILLION TONS OF ORE IN PLACE WITH A GRADE OF $20 PER 4 TON IN FIBER. 5 Q GROUPS FOUR THROUGH SEVEN? 6 A. YES. 7 Q. AND HOW LARGE WAS THE LOCATION, THE MINE SITE, 8 ACCORDING TO THIS ADVERTISEMENT? 9 A. 560 ACRES. 10 Q. NOW, YOU'VE ALREADY TOLD US, MR. COATS, T H A T __ 11 WHEN YOU FIRST BECAME INVOLVED -IN CONSIDERING BUYING THE 12 MINE, AND PRIOR TO THAT TIME, I SHOULD SAY, YOU HAD NO 13 INFORMATION ABOUT ASBESTOS, NO KNOWLEDGE ABOUT ASBESTOS, 14 OR THE RISKS OF WORKING WITH ASBESTOS? 15 A. THAT IS TRUE. 16 Q. OKAY. SO BEFORE YOU PUT THIS PACKAGE TOGETHER 17 THAT W E 'VE HEARD A LITTLE BIT ABOUT, YOU DID A THOROUGH 18 STUDY AND INVESTIGATION OF ASBESTOS, THE RISKS OF 19 ASBESTOS, THE REGULATIONS SURROUNDING THE MINING AND 20 MILLING OF ASBESTOS, WHAT YOU WOULD HAVE TO DO IN ORDER 21 TO BRING THE MINE AND MILL UP TO SAFETY STANDARDS TOO; 22 IS THAT CORRECT? 23 A. THAT IS CORRECT, DEPENDING ON THE DEFINITION 24 OF "THOROUGH." YOU USED THE WORD "THOROUGH." 25 Q. I DID? 26 A. YEAH. SO IN MY UNDERSTANDING OF THE WORD 27 "THOROUGH" FROM A BUSINESS POINT OF VIEW, YES, I DID 28 MAKE SUCH A STUDY. DEBORAH L. NEVILLE CSR 9703 PIDQ0011163 712 1 Q. AND THIS STUDY TOOK YOU FROM JULY OR AUGUST OF 2 1975 UNTIL ABOUT OCTOBER OF 1975? 3 A. correct; 4 Q. AND YOU TOLD US YOU CONSULTED WITH EPA, OSHA, 5 WITH -- YOU DIDN'T MENTION IF YOU CONSULTED WITH THE 6 DEPARTMENT OF THE INTERIOR, DID YOU? 7 A. DEPARTMENT OF INTERIOR IS MSHA, 8 Q. OH, EXCUSE ME, OKAY. 9 AND THEN THE JOHNS-MANSVILLE COMPANY TO GATHER 10 INFORMATION SO YOU COULD MAKE A DECISION AS TO WHETHER 11 YOU WANTED TO ACTUALLY GET INVOLVED IN THIS MINING 12 PROCESS, CORRECT? , 13 A. .THAT IS CORRECT. 14 Q. YOU FOUND OUT ABOUT THE NEED AT THAT TIME FOR 15 CHEST X-RAYS TO BE TAKEN, AND PULMONARY FUNCTION STUDIES 16 TO BE TAKEN OF WORKERS AT THE MINE, CORRECT? 17 A. YES. 18 Q. AND YOU ALSO AT THIS TIME YOU TOLD US THAT YOU 19 LOOKED INTO THE ENGINEERING REQUIREMENTS TO BRING THE 20 MINE UP TO SAFETY STANDARDS SO THAT IT WOULD BE 21 HEALTHFUL; IS THAT CORRECT? 22 A. THAT'S CORRECT. * 23 Q. AND WHAT YOU FOUND OUT WAS IT WAS GOING TO 24 COST SOMETHING LIKE $800,000 TO BRING THE MINE UP TO 25 SNUFF, SO THAT YOU COULD RUN THIS MINE IN A SAFE MANNER? 26 A CORRECT. 27 Q- ISN'T IT CORRECT, MR. COATS, THAT THE 28 ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION AGENCY TOLD YOU YOU CAN'T OPEN DEBORAH L. NEVILLE CSR 9703 PID00011164 713 1 THIS MIKE UNLESS YOU DID ALL OF THESE THINGS? 2 A. YES. 3. Q. SO YOU LOOKED AT THE WHOLE MIXTURE, YOU KNEW 4 WHAT IT WAS GOING TO COST YOU AND YOU MADE A 5 DETERMINATION OF WHETHER IT COULD STILL BE PROFITABLE TO 6 MINE AND MILL AND SELL ASBESTOS OUT OF THIS COPPEROPOLIS 7 LOCATION GIVEN WHAT YOU WOULD HAVE TO SPEND, CORRECT? 8 A. YES. 9 Q AND YOU REACHED THE CONCLUSION THAT YES, YOU 10 STILL COULD MAKE MONEY SELLING ASBESTOS EVEN THOUGH YOU 11 BAD TO DO ALL OF THESE CHANGES AND UPGRADES AND THE 12 LIKE, CORRECT? 13 A. YES. 14 Q. AT THE TIME THAT YOU DID.THESE STUDIES -- 15 EXCUSE ME. 16 AT THE TIME YOU DID THAT INVESTIGATION, ONE OF 17 THE THINGS YOU ALSO DID IS YOU WEvNT TO LIBRARIES, 18 REFERENCE LIBRARIES TO GET A LITTLE BIT OF INFORMATION 19 FOR YOURSELF, CORRECT? 20 A. NO, I DON'T THINK I DID GO TO A PUBLIC - 21 LIBRARY. 22 (PAUSE IN PROCEEDINGS.) 23 MR. HAROWITZ: 24 fi OKAY. I GUESS YOU DIDN'T. YOU DIDN'T G O TO 25 ANY LIBRARIES AT THE TIME? 26 A. I WENT TO THE UNIVERSITY OF CALIFORNIA, BUT 27 NOT TO A PUBLIC LIBRARY. 28 2 THIS WAS THE UNIVERSITY OF CALIFORNIA LIBRARY? DEBORAH L. NEVILLE CSR 9703 PID00011165 714 1 A. THAT'S WHERE I DID SOME REFERENCE WORK, 2 ft. AND AT THAT TIME YOU LEARNED OR AS A RESULT OF 3 YOUR INVESTIGATION YOU LEARNED THAT WITH SUFFICIENT 4 EXPOSURE TO ASBESTOS THAT WAS INHALED BY WORKERS, 5 WORKERS COULD DEVELOP ASBESTOS-RELATED DISEASES OVER 6 TIME? 7 A. YES. 8 Q. BUT BEYOND THAT, MR. COATS, YOU DIDN'T SEEK 9 THE ASSISTANCE OF AN EPIDEMIOLOGIST, CORRECT? 10 A. NO, I DID NOT. 11 Q YOU DIDN'T CONSULT WITH AN EPIDEMIOLOGIST TO 12 FIND OUT WHAT THE LONG-TERM EFFECTS OF ASBESTOS MIGHT 13 BE? , 14 A. NOT WITH AN EPIDEMIOLOGIST, NO, SIR. 15 Q. AND YOU DIDN'T CONSULT WITH ANY DOCTORS AT THE 16 TIME YOU WERE BUYING THE MINE, TO DETERMINE WHAT THE 17 SPECIFIC HEALTH EFFECTS OF ASBESTOS WOULD B E ? ` 18 A. NO, I DID NOT. 19 Q. NOW, YOU TOLD US THAT YOU FOUND OUT TO BRING 20 THE MINE UP TO SAFETY STANDARDS, YOU WERE GOING TO HAVE 21 TO GET TO A FIBER PER CUBIC CENTIMETER OF SOMETHING LIKE 22 FIVE FIBERS PER CUBIC CENTIMETER? 23 A. Y E S . 24 ft:. WAS THAT FOR THE MINE OR THE MILL OR JUST THE 25 MILL? 26 A. I BELIEVE I SAID THAT THE OSHA, WHICH 27 CONTROLLED THE MILL, WAS ALREADY AT FIVE, AND THE MINE 28 WAS AT 10, AND TREY SAID THAT SHORTLY THEY WOULD BE AT DEBORAH L. NEVILLE CSR 9703 PID00011166 715 X FIVE. 2 g. DID YOU KNOW THAT THE OSH& STANDARD WHICH WAS 3 ENACTED IN 1972, WHICH WAS AT FIVE, WAS TO BE REDUCED TO 4 TWO IN 1976? 5 A. NO, I DID NOT KNOW SHAT. 6 Q, HAVE YOU EVER LEARNED SHAT? 7 ,A. WELL, YES. 8 Q. WHEN DID YOU LEARN THAT? 9 A. WELL, AFTER WE GOT INTO BUSINESS AND WE HAD 10 ALREADY DISCUSSED WITH ENGINEERS TO GO TO AT LEAST BELOW 11 TWO. - - 12 Q. BY 1976 WHEN YOU BEGAN TO SELL ASBESTOS, THE 13 LEVEL WAS AT TWO FIBERS? 14 A. IT MIGHT HAVE BEEN LATER IN THE YEAR OF 1976. 15 Q. AT ANY RATE, THAT WAS THE LEVEL THAT YOU HAD 16 TO LIVE WITH? 17 A. YES, SIR. 18 Q. WERE YOU PRESENT WHEN SAMPLING WAS BEING DONE 19 OF THE AIR AT THE MILL? 20 A. YES, MANY TIMES. 21 Q. AND DID YOU SEE THE RESULTS OF THE SAMPLING? 22 A. YES, I HAVE SEEN THE RESULTS OF SAMPLING, 23 g. WERE THERE EVER SITUATIONS WHERE YOU DIDN'T . 24 SEE ANYTHING IN THE AIR BUT THERE WAS STILL MEASURABLE 25 ASBESTOS IN THE AIR? 26 A. YES, I WOULD SAY AT A LEVEL OF TWO FIBERS OR 27 FIVE FIBERS OR EVEN 10 FIBERS YOU MAY NOT SEE ANYTHING 28 IN THE AIR, THAT IS WHY WE HAVE TO TAKE THE DEBORAH L. NEVILLE CSR 9703 PID00011167 716 1 MEASUREMENTS 0 DETERMINE WHAT THE LEVELS ARE. 2 Q. SOME OF THE THINGS THAT YOU HAD TO DO TO OPEN 3 THIS MINE UP INCLUDED, YOU MENTIONED THE BAG HOUSES THAT 4 YOU DESCRIBED. YOU ALSO HAD TO PUT IN CYCLONES, 5 CORRECT? 6 A. UM-HUM, UH-HUH. 7 g TELL THE JURY WHAT CYCLONES ARE. 8 A. IN A FACILITY LIKE THIS, AS IF YOUR VACUUM 9 CLEANER, YOU SUCK IN AIR. A CYCLONE IS A BIG FAN THAT 10 CAUSES NEGATIVE AIR OR SUCTION AND THIS AIR WOULD EXTEND 11 DOWN THROUGH PIPES FOR DIFFERENT PIECES OF MACHINERY, 12 AND THEN IT WOULD GO UP THROUGH THE CYCLONE AND THEN 13 FROM THERE INTO THE BAG HOUSE. 14 Q AND YOU BELIEVE THAT THROUGH USE OF THIS 15 PROCESS, YOU COULD REMOVE SOMETHING LIKE 99.99 PERCENT 16 OF THE ASBESTOS DUST IN THE MILL? 17 A. WE COULD MAKE IT VERY HEALTHFUL, YES. 18 Q. NOW, YOU DIDN'T PARTICULARLY LIKE SPENDING ALL 19 THAT MONEY ON CLEANING UP THE MINE AND MILL, BUT YOU 20 RECOGNIZED THAT WAS THE ONLY WAY YOU WERE GOING TO BE 21 ABLE TO OPERATE THIS MINE AND MILL, CORRECT? 22 A. OH, YES. 23 Q. IN FACT, YOU REALLY, AT THE TIME THAT YOU 24 PURCHASED THIS MINE AND MILL, YOU REALLY DIDN'T THINK 25 THAT 10 FIBERS PER CUBIC CENTIMETER OF ASBESTOS WAS A 26 DANGEROUS LEVEL, DID YOU? 27 A. WELL, I DON'T THINK WHAT I THOUGHT WAS TOO 28 IMPORTANT. THE LAW SAID YOU HAD TO BE THERE, BELOW DEBORAH 1. NEVILLE' CSR 9703 P1D00011168 717 1 FIVE, 2 . BUT YOUR ATTITUDE WAS "THAT'S HOT GOING TO GET 3 ANYBODY SICK"? 4 A. NO, NO. THAT IS NOT CORRECT, SIR. 5 Q. WASN'T IT YOUR POSITION IN THE TIME THAT YOU 6 PURCHASED THIS MINE AND MILL .THAT PEOPLE WERE GETTING 7 SICK AT 100 FIBERS PER CUBIC CENTIMETER OVER A 10-YEAR 8 PERIOD AND THAT WOULD BE AN 8-HOUR TIME-WEIGHTED 9 AVERAGE? 1 A. I BELIEVE THAT IS A QUESTION THAT. I WAS ASKED 11 IN 1992, AND IT WAS NOT PHRASED THAT WAY. IT SAID AT 12 WHAT LEVELS WOULD YOU BE FEARFUL IF PEOPLE HAD TO WORK 13 IN THOSE THINGS, AND THAT WAS THE NUMBER I TOLD. 14 Q AND THAT'S THE LEVEL YOU TOLD ME AT THIS TIME 15 YOU THOUGHT PEOPLE WOULD GET SICK? 16 A. THAT THEY WOULD GET SICK AT A LOT LOWER LEVEL 17 ALSO. 18 Q. WHEN I ASKED YOU AT WHAT LEVEL PEOPLE WOULD 19 GET SICK, YOU TOLD ME 100 FIBERS PER CUBIC CENTIMETER 20 OVER AN 8-HOUR TIME-WEIGHTED AVERAGE FOR 10 YEARS; IS 21 THAT CORRECT, SIR? 22 A. I MAY HAVE SAID THAT, YES. 23 Q. NOW, YOU'VE TOLD THIS JURY YOU HAD A GOOD 24 RELATIONSHIP WITH THE ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION AGENCY. 25 A. YES. 26 Q. SIR, DIDN'T YOU. BELIEVE THAT MEDIA AND 27 GOVERNMENTAL AGENCIES AND MAINLY THE ENVIRONMENTAL 28 PROTECTION AGENCY WAS CREATING -- THIS IS YOUR QUOTE, DEBORAH L. NEVILLE CSR 9703 PID00011169 718 1 "MASS HYSTERIA" BECAUSE THEY WERE SCARING THE AMERICAN 2 PUBLIC AND AMERICAN MOTHERS FROM THEIR REPORTS ON 3 ASBESTOS? 4 MR. WAH: OBJECTION, IF HE HAS A QUOTE, LET'S 5 SHOW THE GENTLEMAN HIS TESTIMONY. 6 THE COURT; ALL RIGHT. AND I NEED THE 7 ORIGINAL LODGED WITH THE COURT. 8 MR. HAROWITZ: YOUR HONOR, I HAVE A COPY IF 9 THAT'S ACCEPTABLE. 10 11 12 HONOR? THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. MR. HAROWITZ: YOU WANT THAT MARKED, YOUR 13 THE COURT: YES. ALL RIGHT. SO OUR RECORD IS 14 CLEAR, WE HAVE AS PLAINTIFF'S 5S THE DEPOSITION OF 15 GORDON A. COATS ON MARCH 25TH, '92. X DON'T SEE A 16 VOLUME NUMBER ON THIS. 17 MR. HAROWITZ: IT'S JUST ONE VOLUME. 18 MR. WAH: YES. 19 (PLAINTIFF'S EXHIBIT 58 MARKED FOR 20 IDENTIFICATION.) 21 MR. HAROWITZ: 22 Q MR. COATS, YOU RECALL I TOOK YOUR DEPOSITION 23 BACK IN 1992? 24 A. I DO. 25 Q. AND IT WAS A RATHER LENGTHY DEPOSITION, I 26 THINK? 27 A. YES, IT WAS. 28 Q. DURING THAT DEPOSITION, I 'M GOING TO BE DEBORAH L. NEVILLE CSR 9703 PID00011170 719 1 REFERRING TO PAGE 40, LINES ONE THROUGH ELEVEN, ALL 2 RIGHT. AND I 'M GOING TO BE REFERRING TO PAGE 40, LINES 3 ONE THROUGH 11. 4 A. PAGE 40? 5 Q. PAGE 40 LINES ONE THROUGH 11. 6 MR. HAROWITZr MAY I PROCEED WITH THAT; YOUR 7 HONOR? 8 Q I ASKED YOU THEN, CAN YOU GENERALLY TELL ME 9 WHAT IT WAS THAT YOU LEARNED, AND I MAY BECOME MORE 10 SPECIFIC. I WANT TO LEARN FIRST OF ALL THE GENERAL _ 11 AREAS OF CONCERN AND GENERALLY WHAT YOU UNCOVERED. 12 YOUR ANSWER WAS, AS A PREAMBLE, I LEARNED THAT 13 THE MEDIA AND CERTAIN GOVERNMENTAL AGENCIES, PRINCIPALLY. 14 THE EPA, WERE IN A MASS HYSTERIA MODE, THEY WERE SCARING 15 THE AMERICAN PUBLIC AND MOTHERS WHO HAD LITTLE CHILDREN, 16 TO A DEGREE WHICH WAS UNCONSCIONABLE. 17 AND I CAN CONTINUE WITH THE REST OF THE 18 ANSWER. 19 MR. WAS: YES, YOUR HONOR. 20 MR. HAROWIT2: 21 g. HAVING SAID THAT I WAS AWARE THAT ASBESTOS 22 FIBERS INHALED IN HIGHER CONCENTRATIONS FOR A LONG 23 PERIOD OF TIME THEY COULD POSSIBLY CAUSE INJURIES, 24 HEALTH INJURIES TO THOSE PERSON'S WHO HAD BEEN IN THAT 25 ENVIRONMENT. 26 NOW, MR. COATS, YOU STATED THAT AT THAT TIME 27 EVEN THOUGH YOU KNEW -- STRIKE THAT. 28 YOU'VE INDICATED IN THIS DEPOSITION AS WELL, DEBORAH L. NEVILLE CSR 9703 PID00011171 ' 720 1 WHICH WE CAN GO TO THAT IP YOU LIKE, THAT THE LEVELS OF 2 100 FIBERS PER CUBIC CENTIMETER OVER A 10 YEAR TIME 3 PERIOD THAT PEOPLE WOULD BE GETTING SICK? . 4 A. THE? WOULD BE GETTING SICK, YES. 5 Q AND WHEN I ASKED YOU AT WHAT LEVEL PEOPLE GOT 6 SICK, THAT'S WHAT YOU TOLD ME; IS THAT RIGHT? 7 A. I SAID THAT AT THOSE LEVELS PEOPLE WOULD GET 8 SICK AND I DIDN'T WANT TO HAVE MY EMPLOYEES IN ANY 9 CONDITIONS LIKE THAT. 10 Q, OKAY- ALL RIGHT. AND YOU'VE INDICATED TO US 11 THAT YOU HAD RECEIVED -- - AND LET ME SEE IF THAT -- 12 MR. HAROWITZ: MAY I APPROACH AGAIN YOUR, 13 HONOR? * 14 THE COURT: YOU MAY. 15 MR. HAROWITZ: I'LL BE PUTTING BEFORE YOU 16 EXHIBIT NUMBER 52. 17 Q. WHEN YOU MADE THAT STATEMENT IN THE, 18 DEPOSITION YOU HAD ALREADY SEEN AND RECEIVED THIS REPORT 19 BY DR. SELIKOFF; IS THAT CORRECT? 20 A, YES, THAT WAS 16 YEARS PREVIOUSLY. 21 Q. SO YOU KNEW FROM THAT REPORT FROM M L SELIKOFF 22 THAT IN FACT, PEOPLE WERE GETTING SICK AT MUCH LOWER 23 LEVELS OF EXPOSURE TO ASBESTOS? 24 A. I BELIEVE THAT'S TRUE. 25 Q. OKAY. AND YOU'VE BEEN ASKED SINCE I ASKED YOU 26 AT DEPOSITION WHETHER YOU THOUGHT THAT FOR PEOPLE TO GET 27 SICK FROM ASBESTOS, WHETHER THEY HAD TO BE EXPOSED TO 28 100 FIBERS PER CUBIC CENTIMETER IN THAT 10-YEAR PERIOD ' . DEBORAH L. NEVILLE CSS 9703 i PID00011172 721 1 ON AN 8-HOUR TIME-WEIGHTED AVERAGE, HAVEN'T SOU, SIR -- 2 YOU'VE BEEN ASKED THE SAME QUESTION THE LAST TIME YOU 3 WERE IN COURT, WEREN'T YOU? 4 A. I DON'T RECALL THAT I WAS. 5 MR. HAROWITZ: MAY I HAVE THEN MARKED NEXT IN 6 ORDER REPORTER'S TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS FROM JUNE 29, 7 1996. 8 9 10 11 THE COURT;. ALL RIGHT. THAT'S 59. (PLAINTIFF'S EXHIBIT 59 MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION.) THE COURT: WHAT IS THE DATE ON THAT? 12 MR. HAROWITZ: JUNE 29, 1996. 13 THE COURT: THIS IS THE DEPOSITION OF 14 MR. COATS? 15 MR. HAROWITZ: THIS IS HIS TRIAL TESTIMONY IN 16 THE CASE OF XSOLA. AND MAY I APPROACH THE WITNESS? 17 THE COURT; YOU MAY. 18 MR. HAROWITZ: 19 Q REFERRING TO PAGE 67, LINES TWO THROUGH 21. 20 MR. HAROWITZ; MAY I PROCEED, YOUR HONOR? 21 THE COURT: I NEED YOU TO APPROACH. 22 (COUNSEL APPROACH THE BENCH.) 23 THE COURT! ALL-RIGHT. YOU MAY PROCEED, 24 MR. HAROWITZ. 25 MR, HAROWITZ! 26 Q SIR, YOU WERE, LET'S SEE, 1996 YOU WERE 27 PROBABLY ON FOLSOM STREET WHEN YOU TESTIFIED IN THE 28 ISOLA CASE; IS THAT CORRECT? DEBORAH L. NEVILLE CSR 9703 PID00011173 722 1 A. THAT'S CORRECT. 2 Q. AT THAT TIME MY PARTNER ASKED YOU SOME -- 3 A. MS. CHASER. 4 Q. AT THIS TIME SHE ASKED YOU QUESTION, AND AT 5 THE TIME YOU WENT INTO THIS BUSINESS YOU THOUGHT THAT 6 DESPITE WHAT THE STANDARDS WERE OF 10 GOING TO FIVE 7 GOING TO TWO, THAT UNLESS A PERSON BREATHED IN 100 8 FIBERS PER CC FOR 8 HOURS A DAY FOR TEN OR 20 YEARS, 9 THAT THEY WOULDN'T GET ASBESTOS DISEASE, CORRECT, YOUR 10 ANSWER WAS THAT'S A GENERALITY? 11 A. YES. 12 Q. AND THEN SHE READ FROM THE DEPOSITION THAT I 13 JUST READ FROM BEFORE. AND THE QUESTION WAS PAGE 63 14 LINES 23 THROUGH 26. 15 "THE ANSWER: I'M SURE THAT I'VE SAID AS A 16 NUMBER, IF YOU EVER BREATHED IN 100 FIBERS PER CC FOR A 17 LONG PERIOD OF TIME THAT WOULD NOT BE VERY HEALTHFUL. 18 THEN SHE READ: QUESTION, YOU SAID IN 1975 19 YOUR BELIEF THAT A CONCENTRATION OF ASBESTOS HIGH ENOUGH 20 TO CREATE ASBESTOS DISEASE WAS 100 FIBERS PER CC 8 HOURS 21 A DAY, FIVE TO 10 YEARS; IS THAT YOUR OPINION, WAS THAT 22 YOUR OPINION AT THE TIME? 23 ANSWER: THAT WAS MY OPINION AT THE TIME. 24 QUESTION: HAS THAT OPINION CHANGED SINCE 25 THEN? 26 ANSWER: NO, NOT REALLY." 27 I ASK YOU, MR. COATS, IS THAT STILL YOUR. 28 OPINION TODAY? DEBORAH L. NEVILLE .CSR 9703 PID00011174 723 1 A. ABSOLUTELY NOT, 2 Q. WHEN DID THIS CHANGE BETWEEN 1996 AND NOW? 3 A. WELL, I WOULD SAY BETWEEN 1992, WE NEVER, EVER 4 WOULD SUGGEST THAT AN EMPLOYEE SHOULD BE SUBJECTED TO 5 THOSE LEVELS. 6 Q.` YOU TOLD US THAT WHEN YOU GOT THE SEL1K0FF 7 REPORT AND -- 8 MR. HAROWITZ: MAY I APPROACH AGAIN, YOUR 9 HONOR? 10 THE COURT: YOU MAY. 11 MR. HAROWITZ: 12 -- WHAT HAS BEEN IDENTIFIED AS NUMBER 52, THAT 13 YOU HAD SOMEBODY. IN YOUR EMPLOY LOOK INTO THE EMPLOYEES 14 AT YOUR PLANT? IS THAT CORRECT? 15 A. YES. 16 Q. WHO WAS THAT? 17 A. MR. HOYLMN. 18 Q. WAS THAT DR. HOYLMAN? 19 A. HE WAS NOT A DOCTOR. 20 Q. SO YOU WERE GOING TO ACCEPT WHAT MR. HOYLMAN 21 SAID OVER WHAT DR. SELIKOFF HAD TO SAY ABOUT EMPLOYEES? 22 IS THAT CORRECT? 23 A. ONCE WE HAD THE EMPLOYEES EXAMINED BY OUR 24 CONTRACT HOSPITAL AND THE DOCTORS AND THE B READER, THAT 25 WE FOUND THAT THEY WERE HEALTHY AND HAD NO INDICATION OF 26 AN ASBESTOS-RELATED DISEASE, WE PUT OUR TRUST IN OUR 27 DOCTOR'S OPINION. 28 Q. OKAY. NOW, ISN'T IT CORRECT, MR. COATS, THAT DEBORAH L. NEVILLE CSR 9703 PID00011175 724 1 MANY OF THE EMPLOYEES THAT WORKED FOR PACIFIC ASBESTOS 2 NEVER CAME TO WORK FOR CALAVERAS? 3 A. I DON'T KNOW THAT. 4 Q. WELL, HOW MANY PEOPLE FROM PACIFIC CAME TO 5 WORK FOR CALAVERAS? 6 A. I DON'T KNOW THE PRECISE NUMBER, BUT MANY. 7 Q. SO YOU DON'T KNOW WHETHER THE PEOPLE WHO HAD 8 DEVELOPED ASBESTOSXS WHEN THEY WORKED FOR PACIFIC 9 ASBESTOS HAD RETIRED OR WERE TOO SICK TO COME TO WORK AT 10 CALAVERAS; IS THAT RIGHT? ^ ^ 11 A. I DON'T KNOW OF ANY EMPLOYEE WHO WORKED FOR 12 PACIFIC THAT CONTRACTED ASBESTOSIS.. 13 Q. NOW, AFTER THIS INITIAL PROCEDURE, INITIAL 14 TIME PERIOD WHEN YOU WERE LOOKING INTO INVESTIGATING 15 WHAT YOU HAD TO DO IN ORDER TO OPEN THE MINE, AND WHEN 16 YOU ACTUALLY OPENED THE MINE, THE AGENCIES THAT YOU 17 DISCUSSED CONTINUED TO COME BACK ON A REGULAR BASIS TO 18 THE MINE AND THE MILL TO INSPECT, CORRECT? . . 19 A. YES. 20 Q. OKAY. AND I KNOW YOU'VE TOLD THIS JURY YOU 21 HAD A VERY GOOD RELATIONSHIP WITH OSHA THAT DEVELOPED 22 OVER THE YEARS; IS THAT CORRECT? 23 A. YES. 24 MR. HAROWITZ: YOUR HONOR, MAY I HAVE MARKED 25 AS NEXT IN ORDER A MARCH 30, 1978 LETTER WHICH PURPORTS 26 TO BE FROM MR. COATS TO TASK GROUP A? 27 THE COURT: OKAY. THAT WOULD BE 60. 28 (PLAINTIFF'S EXHIBIT 60 MARKED FOR DEBORAH L. NEVILLE GSR 9703 PID00011176 725 1 IDENTIFICATION.) 2 MR. HAROWITZ: MAY I APPROACH THE WITNESS, 3 PLEASE? 4 THE COURT: YOU MAY. 5 MR. HROWITZ: 6 Q MR. COATS, I'M PLACING BEFORE YOU WHAT HAS 7 BEEN MARKED AS PLAINTIFF'S EXHIBIT NUMBER 60. I ASK YOU 8 TO TAKE A LOOK AT THAT TO SEE IT THAT'S FAMILIAR TO 9 YOU. 10 A- YES, I HAVE. ^ , ._ 11 Q. AND THAT'S YOUR SIGNATURE ON THAT LETTER? 12 A. ABSOLUTELY. 13 Q. THAT WAS PREPARED IN THE ORDINARY COURSE OF 14 THE BUSINESS OF CALAVERAS ASBESTOS MINING COMPANY? 15 A. YES, AND I DRAFTED THE LETTER. 16 MR. HAROWITZ: YOUR HONOR, I WOULD LIKE TO PUT 17 THIS UP BEFORE THE JURY, 18 THE COURT: MR. WAH, OBJECTION? 19 MR. WAH: NO, YOUR HONOR. 20 MR. HAROWITZ: 21 Q OKAY. MR. COATS, I 'M GOING TO READ THE 22 LETTER. YOU FOLLOW ALONG WITH ME. IT GOES: 23 "TASK GROUP A INTER-AGENCY TASK FORCE. 24 SUBJECT: MSHA/ OSHA JURISDICTION. 25 AND IT'S DATED MARCH 30, 1978. 26 AND IT READS; 27 WE ARE A SMALL OPEN PIT MINING AND MILLING 28 COMPANY EMPLOYING 200 PEOPLE. OUR ECONOMIC IMPACT ON DEBORAH L. NEVILLE CSR 9703 PID00011177 1 THE RURAL, MOUNTAINOUS COMMUNITIES IN WHICH OUR 726 2 EMPLOYEES LIVE IS SUBSTANTIAL. .. /__ __ _________ 3 WE PLACE HUMAN LIPE AMO OCCUPATIONAL SAFETY AS 4 TOP PRIORITY. WE RAVE A RECORD OF COOPERATION WITH THE 5 MANY LEVELS OF GOVERNMENTAL AGENCIES THAT REGULARLY 6 'DUPLICATE EACH OTHERS ROUTINE INSPECTIONS. I AM PLEASED 7 TO THINK OUR ATTITUDE AND PHILOSOPHY IS ONE OF 8 CORPORATION RATHER THAN AS AN ADVERSARY OF GOVERNMENT. 9 I MUST POINT OUT HOWEVER, THAT WE ARE 10 CONSTANTLY PLAGUED WITH UNEXPECTED VISITS FROM FEDERAL, 11 STATE, AND LOCAL AGENCIES. ALSO, WE ARE ASKED TO SUPPLY 12 CONFIDENTIAL BUSINESS DATA TO THESE. AGENCIES. THE TIME 13 CONSUMED BY OUR EMPLOYEES TO ASSIST THESE VISITS AND 14 COMPLETE THE FORMS AND OTHER PEOPLE PAPERWORK IS 15 EXTREMELY COSTLY. FURTHERMORE, MUCH OF THE INFORMATION 16 IS OF NO VALUE TO THE GOVERNMENT AND SHOULD NOT BE 17 BLXTHLY GIVEN. 18 OSHA AND MSHA PAPERWORK GETS MORE COMPLICATED 19 AND EXTENSIVE EACH DAY WITH DUPLICATION AND REPETITION. 20 GOVERNMENT HAS TAKEN THE FREE OUT OF 'FREE ENTERPRISE ', 21 AS WE FIND OURSELVES BECOMING SLAVES OF PAPERWORK AMD 22 REPORTS. 23 PAGE TWO. MSHA EMPLOYEES HAVE BEEN FOUND TO 24 BE HELPFUL, COOPERATIVE, FIRM AND FAIR. .THEY ARE 25 KNOWLEDGEABLE WITH YEARS OF MINING EXPERIENCE. THEY 26 KNOW OUR PROBLEMS AND BECAUSE OF THEIR VAST EXPERIENCE 27 ARE HELPFUL IN FINDING SOLUTIONS. 28 OSHA PEOPLE GENERALLY LACK PRACTICAL MINING DEBORAH L. NEVILLE CSR 9703 PID00011178 ) 1 e x p e r i e n c e ;, h e n s e a r e n o t p r o b l e m s o l v e r s , t h e y c a n b e 727 2 THOUGHT OF RATHER AS A GROUP OF POLICE TYPE INSPECTORS ,..... 3 WHO READ GOVERNMENT REGULATIONS, INTERPRET THEM AND THEN 4 ISSUE CITATIONS. A KNOWLEDGE OF REAL WORLD IS LACKING. 5 INSTEAD OF WORKING IN CONCERT WITH INDUSTRY TO ACHIEVE A 6 ' COMMON SAFETY GOAL, OSHA SEEMS TO THINK OF THE PRIVATE 7 SECTOR AS THEIR ADVERSARY. 8 IT IS HOPED OUR OPINIONS WILL BE CONSIDERED BY 9 THIS TASK GROUP. GORDON A COATS, PRESIDENT." 10 SO, MR. COATS, THE RELATIONSHIP -- STRIKE 11 THAT. 12 YOU DIDN'T HOLD OSHA IN QUITE SO HIGH ESTEEM 13 AS YOU MIGHT HAVE SUGGESTED EARLIER IN YOUR TESTIMONY, 14 SIR? 15 A. AT THAT DATE I DID NOT. 16 Q. AND, IN FACT, ISN'T IT, CORRECT, SIR, THAT 17 OVER THE YEARS YOU WERE CITED FOR VIOLATIONS OF OSHA 18 SPECIFICALLY RELATED TO DUST VIOLATIONS? 19 A. PROBABLY SOME MINOR VIOLATIONS WHICH I DON'T 20 RECALL AT THIS TIME. 21 MR. HAROWITZ: MAY I HAVE MARKED AS NEXT IN 22 ORDER DEPARTMENT OF INDUSTRIAL RELATIONS DIVISION OF 23 INDUSTRIAL SAFETY, CITATION DATED, LOOKS LIKE 10/12 24 1977, AMD THERE'S DIFFERENT DATES ON II -- EXCUSE ME, 25 AUGUST 25, 1977. 26 THE COURT; ALL RIGHT. THAT'S PLAINTIFF'S 61. 27 (PLAINTIFF'S 61 HARKED FOR 28 IDENTIFICATION.) DEBORAH L. NEVILLE CSR 9703 PID00011179 . 1 . 728 MR* HAROWITZ: MAY I APPROACH THE WITNESS? 2 THE COURT: YOU MAY. ____ ., .. . 3 MR. HAROWITZ! 4 Q MR. COATS, I'M PLACING BEFORE YOU EXHIBIT 5 NUMBER 61. I'LL ASK YOU TO TAKE A LOOK AT THAT AND SEE 6 IF THAT'S FAMILIAR TO YOU. ' 7 A YES, I'VE SEEN THIS. . 8 0. AND ON THIS DOCUMENT THERE IS REFERENCE TO A 9 CITATION FOR ASBESTOS WORK PRACTICES ON OCTOBER 1, 1977, 10 CORRECT? THE FIRST PAGE YOU SEE THAT, ASBESTOS WORK 11 PRACTICES? 12 A, ASBESTOS SPILL ON THIRD FLOOR OF MILL. 13 Q. AND IF WE GO DOWN TO THE NEXT PAGE THERE'S 14 ALSO A VIOLATION FOR MECHANICAL VENTILATION SYSTEMS; DO 15 YOU SEE THAT? 16 A.. I SEE THAT. 17 Q. OKAY. IT SAYS THE FOLLOWING MECHANICAL 18 VENTILATION SYSTEMS WERE NOT MAINTAINED FREE OF LEAKS TO 19 PREVENT HARMFUL DUST FROM BEING DISPERSED INTO THE 20 ATMOSPHERE? 21 A- UH--HUH. . 22 Q. YES? 23 A. YES. 24 Q- AND THAT WAS DATED OCTOBER 12, 1997? 25 A. UM-HUM. 26 Q. AND IF YOU GO DOWN TO THE LAST TWO PAGES OF 27 THE DOCUMENT, YOU SEE THAT IT'S ENTITLED "ASBESTOS DUST 28 CONTROL"? DEBORAH L. NEVILLE CSR 9703 ' PI D00011180 729 1 A. ES* 2 fi. FEBRUARY 15, 1978? 3 A. YES. 4 Q, IT SAYS DURING THE PLANT SURVEY ON AUGUST 23, S 24, 1977, A DUST SURVEY WAS CONDUCTED BY G. DENTON AND 6 S. RHYU. THE LABORATORY ANALYSIS OF THESE DUST SAMPLES 7 IN BREATHING ZONES OF THE ORE PREP PLANT OPERATOR AND 8 CRUSHER OPERATOR EXCEEDS THE THRESHOLD LIMIT VALUES FOR 9 ASBESTOS DUST. THESE EMPLOYEES WERE WEARING RESPIRATORY 10 EQUIPMENT OFF AND ON AT THE TINE OF THIS SURVEY. 11 HOWEVER, RESPIRATOR EQUIPMENT IS NOT PERMITTED AS A 12 SUBSTITUTE FOR ENVIRONMENTAL CONTROLS. 13 DID I READ THAT CORRECTLY? 14 A. YOU READ IT CORRECTLY. THAT WAS IN 1978. 15 Q. ALL RIGHT. MR. COATS, YOU RESENTED THE OSHA 16 PEOPLE COMING OUT THERE ALL THE TIME MEDDLING IN YOUR 17 BUSINESS? 18 A. NO, I DID NOT. 19 MR. WAH: OBJECTION; ARGUMENTATIVE. 20 THE COURT: OVERRULED. 21 MR. HAROWITZ: 22 Q SIR, DID YOU EVER RESENT DR. SELIKOFF AND HIS 23 MT. SINAI GROUP? 24 A. ABSOLUTELY NOT. 25 Q. YOU ALREADY TOLD US THAT YOU REFERRED TO HIM 26 AS THE INFAMOUS DR. SELIKOFF BEFORE AND YOU SAID THAT 27 W A S N 'T RIGHT, CORRECT? 28 A. THAT'S CORRECT. DEBORAH L. NEVILLE CSR 9703 PID00011181 730 i Q. WHY DIO YOU CALL HIM THE INFAMOUS DR. SELIKOFF 2 WHEN I TOOK YOUR DEPOSITION IN 1992? 3 A. WELL, I THINK YOU HAD ASKED ME A QUESTION AND 4 I CALLED HIM THE FAMOUS DR. SELIKOFF, AND THERE WAS SOME 5 QUESTION RIGHT AFTER THAT AND IN A FLIPPANT WAY WHICH I 6 HAVE APOLOGIZED FOR, I DID SAY INFAMOUS. 7 Q. AND THE REASON YOU CALLED HIM THE INFAMOUS 8 DR. SELIKOFF WAS BECAUSE HE WAS CREATING PROBLEMS FOR 9 YOUR INDUSTRY; ISN'T THAT RIGHT, SIR? 10 A. WELL, I BELIEVE THAT I WAS MORE CLOSELY 11 ASSOCIATED WITH THAT LETTER THAT WE REQUESTED IN JANUARY 12 OF '75 FROM THE DEPARTMENT OF INDUSTRIAL SAFETY 13 REGARDING PREVIOUS, REGARDING EMPLOYEES OF PACIFIC 14 ASBESTOS, AND THEN WHEN WE FOUND THAT NONE OF THOSE WERE 15 CITED OR CALLED IK HAD THESE DISEASES, THAT WAS MY ONLY 16 CONTACT WITH DR. SELIKOFF OTHER THAN HEARING ABOUT HIM 17 AND KNOWING THAT HE WAS AN AUTHORITY ON THE INSULATION 18 WORKERS. 19 Q. DIDN'T YOU TALK ABOUT HIM AT THE ASBESTOS 20 INFORMATION ASSOCIATION MEETINGS? 21 A. YES, I DID. 22 Q- YOU TALKED WITH OTHER PEOPLE IN THE INDUSTRY 23 ABOUT HOW HE WAS CREATING PROBLEMS FOR THE ASBESTOS 24 INDUSTRY, HAVEN'T YOU, SIR? 25 A. THERE WAS DISCUSSIONS OF THAT NATURE, YES. 26 Q AND IT WAS THE ATTITUDE, YOUR ATTITUDE THAT 27 DR. SELIKOFF WAS BEING PAID BY THE UNIONS, CORRECT? 28 A. HE WAS. DEBORAH L. NEVILLE GSR 9703 PID00011182 t 731 1 Q . AND HE WAS TELLING PEOPLE THEY WERE SICK WHEN 2 THEY WEREN'T SICK? __ ___ __ ___________ _ 3 A. THAT IS CORRECT. 4 Q. THAT WAS YOUR OPINION WHEN YOU RAN THAT MINE 5 AND MILL? 6 A. THAT IS CORRECT, BASED ON THE INFORMATION* THAT 7 WE HAD. 8 Q. OKAY. SO WHEN YOU SAY WELL-RESPECTED, YOU 9 DIDN'T RESPECT HIM AT THAT TIME? IQ A. I HAVE RESPECTED HIM FOR THAT HE WAS AN, 11 AUTHORITY ON ASBESTOS-RELATED DISEASES. - 12 Q NOW, MR. COATS, I'VE HAD A LOT OF DOCTORS ON 13 THE STAND. MR. COATS, YOU HVE SOME STRONG FEELINGS 14 ABOUT REGULATION AND INDUSTRY, DON'T YOU, SIR? 15 A. I THINK I DO, YES. 16 Q. AND YOU DID BACK AT THE TIME THAT YOU WERE 17 RUNNING THE CALAVERAS MINE AND MILL, CORRECT? 18 A. I BELIEVE, YES. 19 Q. OKAY. AND YOU LET THOSE FEELINGS BE KNOWN TO 20 OTHERS BY WAY OF SPEECHES, DIDN'T YOU? 21 A. I DON'T RECALL. ... * 22 fi. DO YOU RECALL GIVING A SPEECH AT UNIVERSITY OF 23 NEVADA, RENO IN 1979 FOR THE MINERAL INDUSTRY MANAGEMENT 24 GROUP? 25 A. NO I DON'T. 26 MR. HAROWITZ : .YOUR HONOR, MAY I HAVE MARKED 27 ACTUALLY TWO DOCUMENTS, ONE IS A JANUARY -- IT'S A 28 DOCUMENT SHORT COURSE ANNOUNCEMENT, JANUARY 17, 1979. DEBORAH L. NEVILLE CSR 9703 PID00011183 734 1 Q. CONSUMER PRODUCI SAFETY COMMISSION? 2 A. YES, PROBABLY CONSUMER PRODUCT SAFETY 3 COMMISSION. 4 Q, AND THEN YOU GO ON TO TALK ABOUT SOME OF THE 5 COST TO INDUSTRY GENERATED BY THESE PARTICULAR < 6 REGULATORY AGENCIES, CORRECT? 1 7 A. YES. YOU WISH ME TO CONTINUE READING THIS? 8 Q. PLEASE. 9 A. YEAH. "23 MAN DAYS OF GOVERNMENT INSPECTION. 10 DIRECTOR" -- . I GUESS THAT MEANS OUR DIRECTOR OF 11 ENVIRONMENTAL AFFAIRS SPENDS THAT. "$500,000 ON 12 ENVIRONMENTAL REGULATION FIVE PERCENT OF OUR SALES GO 13 GOES TO ENVIRONMENTAL! RELATED PROJECTS." 14 Q. . NOW, DOWN AT THE BOTTOM OF THE PAGE IT TALKS IS ABOUT THAT YOU THOUGHT THESE REGULATORY AGENCIES, WHAT 16 IMPACT YOU THOUGHT THEY WOULD HAVE UPON YOUR COMPANY. 17 YOU SEE THAT, THE LAST TWO LINES GOING OVER TO THE 18 FOLLOWING PAGE? 19 A. "WE WILL EXPECT" -- IS THAT WHERE YOU WISH ME 20 TO START? 21 Q. YES, PLEASE. 22 A. "WE EXPECT TO BE HERE FOR SEVERAL MORE YEARS 23 IF GOVERNMENT REGULATION DOESN'T DO US IN. WE ARE 24 CONSTANTLY PELTED WITH" -- 25 Q. IS THAT "SETTLED"? 26 MR. WAH: HE SAID "PELTED" 27 MR. HAROWITZ: EXCUSE ME. THANK YOU. 28 A. -- "WATER POLLUTION, NOISE OSHA, EPA, MSHA, DEBORAH L. NEVILLE GSR 9703 PID00011186 735 1 DOP, HEALTH, WELFARE. I DOUBT IF EVERYTHING IS AS BAD 2 AS OUR GOVERNMENT WOULD LIKE US TO BELIEVE. THE 3 GREATEST DANGER FACES IS THE DANGER PERPETRATED BY THESE 4 DOOMOLOGISTS," AS I CALLED THEM. "POSSIBLY WITHOUT EVEN 5 REALIZING WHAT THEY ARE DOING THEY ARE CONTRIBUTING TO 6 THE'* -- A WORD I CAN'T READ, "REGARDING THE FREE 7 ENTERPRISE SYSTEM. THEY ARE A DANGER TO OUR 8 SOCIOECONOMIC SYSTEM AND REAL DANGER TO THE PEOPLE THEY 9 PROFESS TO BE PROTECTING, THE CONSUMER." 10 Q. OKAY. AND THEN FINALLY., AND I'M NOT GOING T0_ 11 HAVE YOU READ THIS, DOES THAT REFRESH YOUR MEMORY? 12 A. I'M SURE I NEVER GAVE THAT AS A SPEECH. I MAY 13 HAVE BEEN INVITED TO DO IT. THESE WERE MY NOTES AND 14 THIS IS WHAT I WOULD HAVE SAID. 15 Q. THAT IS YOUR OPINION AT THE TIME? 16 A. YES. . , 17 Q. YOU TALK ABOUT DDT Aim SUGGEST REGULATIONS 18 REGARDING DDT WERE NOT WELL-FOUNDED, CORRECT? 19 A. I DON'T KNOW WHERE THAT IS. 20 Q. WELL, IF YOU LOOK AT THE BOTTOM OF THAT PAGE 21 WHERE IT SAYS, "YOU ALL REMEMBER DDT." .. . 22 MR. HAKOWITZ: MAY I APPROACH, YOUR HONOR? 23 THE COURT; ,YOU MAY. 24 MR. HAROWITZi. 25 Q. IT SAYS, "YOU ALL REMEMBER DDT, IT KILLED THE 26 INSECTS THAT RAVAGED GRAIN FIELDS"; 0 YOU REMEMBER 27 THAT -- I THINK YOU *RE ON THE WRONG PAGE -- RIGHT THERE 28 YOU DON'T HAVE TO READ THAT. DEBORAH L. NEVILLE CSR 9703 A. NO. 736 m mwp ffkiriure* nnrnip 737 1 NEXT IN ORDER A MAX 16, 1969 LETTER FROM BILL RUTHERFORD 2 TO GORDON COATS. 3 THE COURT: THAT WILL BE 63. AMD I'M SORRY, 4 YOU SAY IT IS A LETTER? 5 (PLAINTIFF'S EXHIBIT 63 MASKED FOR 6 > IDENTIFICATION.) 1 7 MR. HAROWITZ: MAY I APPROACH? 8 THE COURT: YOU MAY. 9 THE WITNESS: THANK YOU. 10 MR. HAROWITZ: 11 Q. YOU'RE WELCOME. WHY DON'T YOU TAKE A LOOK AND 12 SEE IF YOU RECOGNIZE THAT LETTER, . , 13 A. YES, HE WAS THE PERSONNEL GUY AT THIS TIME. 14 Q. AND THAT WAS A LETTER THAT YOU RECEIVED FROM 15 MR. RUTHERFORD IN MAY OF 1979? 16 A. YES. 17 MR. HAROWITZ: YOUR HONOR, I'D LIKE TO DISPLAY 18 THIS TO THE JURY. PID00011189 I tt I I It.' SHRINK-WRAPPED? A, THAT'S RIGHT. ;* __________ _ Q. AND THEN YOU FOLLOWED UP WITH A MARCH 9, 1979 LATER SAYING IF THEY WANTED THEM SHRINK-WRAPPED, THEN THEY CAN ASK FOR IT TO BE SHRINK WRAPPED, CORRECT? 747 1 THE WITNESS: THEY WERE ROT SHRINK-WRAPPED. 2 MR. HAROWITZ: 3 Q. NOR WERE THEY STRETCH-WRAPPED? 4 A. NO, THEY WERE NOT. 5 Q. NOW, MR. COATS, YOU TOLD US THAT WITH RESPECT 6 TO THE BAG WHICH IS IDENTIFIED AS EXHIBIT 21, THE BROWN 7 PAPER BAG, THE ONE THAT HAS JOHNS-HANSVILLE PRODUCTS 8 CORPORATION ON THE BACK. THE JOHNS-MNVILLE ART 9 DEPARTMENT CREATED THE LOGO AND THE INFORMATION -- NOT 10 THE INFORMATION BUT THE STENCILING ON THIS BAG? 11 A. NO, I DON'T THINK I SAID THEY DESIGNED IT. Q THAT WAS IMPORTANT INFORMATION, THAT GRADE.4T? A. EVERYTHING ON THIS BAG IS IMPORTANT, YES, SIR. Q. WHEN A WORKER IS TRYING TO FIGURE OUT WHAT KIND OF ASBESTOS TO PUT INTO A PARTICULAR BATCH OR A TRANSITE PIPE, THEY'RE GOING TO LOOK FOR THAT 4T, THAT'S VERY IMPORTANT INFORMATION, CORRECT? A THAT'S CORRECT. Q. SO YOU WANT TO PUT THAT IN BIG BOLD LETTERS; IS THAT RIGHT? A. WELL, THAT IS THE WAY WE SHOWED IT THERE, YES. Q. AND THE LOGO, CERTAINLY YOU WANT EVERYONE TO 1 * 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 A. e. A. READ IX. e. A. QA. Q. A. Q. NO, I CAN'T READ IX. CAN YOU READ IT NOW? IF I HAD MY OTHER GLASSES I PROBABLY COULD FROM THIS POINT? I'M GLANCING AT THE BAG. I CAN READ IT, SIR. CAN YOU READ IT NOW? IT TALKS ABOUT THE CAUTION. READ IT FOR ME, PLEASE. I HAVE TO HAVE MY GLASSES ON. GO AHEAD. 750 1 WORLD FOLLOWED THOSE GUIDELINES. 2 0. MR. COATS, AM I CORRECT THAT THE FEDERAL 3 STANDARDS DID NOT SAT THAT THE LABEL SHOULD BE ft 4 SPECIFIC SIZE? 5 A. DO NOT BELIEVE THE STANDARD SAID IT HAD TO 6 BE A SPECIFIC SIZE. i 7 Q. WHAT THE STANDARD SAID, AND TELL ME IF THIS IS 8 REFRESHES YOUR MEMORY. "CAUTION LABELS REQUIRED BY 9 SUBSECTION SHALL BE CONSPICUOUS AND LEGIBLE AND SHALL 10 CONTAIN THE FOLLOWING OR EQUIVALENT WARNING"; DO YOU , 11 REMEMBER THAT AS BEING THE -- 12 ft. THOSE SOUNDS LIKE THE WORDS. 13 Q. AND DO YOU THINK THIS IS CONSPICUOUS, 14 MR. COATS? 15 A. I THINK IF YOU'RE HANDLING A BAG OF ASBESTOS 16 THAT WOULD BE CONSPICUOUS. 17 Q. WHEN YOU'RE HANDLING A BAG OF ASBESTOS AND 18 YOU'RE WORKING AROUND SOMEONE WHO IS HANDLING A BAG OF 19 ASBESTOS? 20 A. I BELIEVE ANYONE WHO WOULD BE IN THAT 21 SITUATION WOULD HAVE HAD EXTENSIVE TRAINING ON THE 22 HANDLING OF ASBESTOS THERE AND THAT WE WOULD HAVE 23 POINTED OUT THE DANGERS TO THE PEOPLE FOR HANDLING RAW 24 ASBESTOS. 25 Q. DIDN'T YOU TELL US IT WAS IMPORTANT THAT THE 26 WORKER GET AS MUCH INFORMATION AS THEY CAN ABOUT THE 27 HAZARDS OF ASBESTOS SO THEY CAN PROTECT THEMSELVES? 28 A, ABSOLUTELY. DEBORAH L. NEVILLE CSR 9703 Q. AND WASN'T THE WHOLE PURPOSE OF PUTTING A WARNING ON THE BAG TO PROVIDE SUCH INFORMATION TO THE workers? A. THAT WOULD BE ONE OF THE REASONS, YES. Q. WHAT OTHER REASON WOULD THERE BE? 752 1 Q. SO, IF YOU'RE WORKING IN AN ENVIRONMENT THAT 2 HAS FIVE FIBERS PER CUBIC CENTIMETER OR LESS, YOU CAN'T 3 - , SEE ANY ASBESTOS IN THE AIR? 4 A. NO, YOU WOULD NOT. , 5 Q. SO HOW WOULD YOU KNOW IF YOU'RE CREATING 6 DANGEROUS LEVELS OF ASBESTOS DUST IF YOU CAN'T SEE IT? 7 A. ONLY BECAUSE THE MANAGEMENT HAD A POLICY OF 8 MONITORING THE WORK AREAS, AND THEY KNOW WHAT THE 9 STANDARDS ARE AND WHAT THE ALLOWABLE LIMITS ARE. 10 Q. SO THIS IS THE BAG THAT YOU PUT YOUR PRODUCT 11 OUT IN, CORRECT? > 12 A. YES. 13 Q. DID YOU FEEL THAT ONCE THE PRODUCT LEFT YOUR 14 MILL AND WENT TO A CUSTOMER THAT YOU WERE NO LONGER 15 RESPONSIBLE FOR IT? 16 A. YES, I DID, BECAUSE THEY HAD PURCHASED THE 17 PRODUCT, IT MET ALL THE SPECIFICATIONS, THEY WERE 18 EXPERTS AT HANDLING THE FIBER, THE MANUFACTURE, AND SO PID00011204 753 1 BREATHING ASBESTOS DUST MAY CAUl SERIOUS BODILY 2 HARM." 3 MR. COATS, IN 197 5 W H . YOU DECIDED -- WERE 4 MAKING THE DECISION WHETHER TO BUY THIS MINE AND MILE OR 5 NOT, AT THAT TIME YOU KNEW ASBESTOS COULD CAUSE 6 MESOTHELIOMA? i 7 A. YES. y 8 Q. AND YOU KNEW THAT ASBESTOS COULD CAUSE LUNG 9 CANCER? IO A YES. 34 Q. AND THAT ASBESTOS COULD CAUSE ASBESTOSIS? 12 A. YES. 13 Q. WHEN YOU PUT ON THIS BAG "BREATHING ASBESTOS 14 DUST MAY CAUSE SERIOUS BODILY HARM," WHAT WAS YOUR 15 INTENT? 16 A, MY INTENT WAS TO. FOLLOW THE LAWS OF THE UNITED 17 STATES OF AMERICA, SIR. THOSE ARE SPECIFIC WORDS 18 REQUIRED BY OSHA TO PUT ON THE BAG. 19 Q. REQUIRED BY OSHA? 20 , A. THEY WERE NOT MY IN THE FEDERAL REGISTER, THEY 21 WERE PUT OUT -- 22 MR. HAROWITZ: MAY I HAVE MARKED AS NEXT IN 23 ORDER - 24 THE W I T N E S S ,THEY WERE NOT MY WORDS 25 MR. HAROWITZ: EXCUSE ME. I'M SORRY. 26 Q THE INDUSTRIAL RELATIONS TITLE 8 -- EXCUSE ME 27 FROM 1976 28 THE COURT: THAT'S 68. . DEBORAH L. NEVILLE CSR 9703 PID00011205 754 1 (PLAINTIFF 'S EXHIBIT 68 MARKED FOR 2 IDENTIFICATION.) 3 MR. HR0WIT2: 4 Q. MR. COATS, LET ME JUST ASK YOU THIS: DID YOU S UNDERSTAND THAT YOU COULD NOT USE ANY INFORMATION, ANY 6 WORDING BEYOND THAT WHICH WAS CONTAINED IN THE FEDERAL 1 7 STANDARD, THE FEDERAL OSHA STANDARD? 8 A. I UNDERSTAND THAT BY LAW I WAS REQUIRED TO PUT 9 THAT WORDING ON EACH AND EVERY BAG. 10 Q. AT A MINIMUM? _ _ __ . 11 A. AT A MINIMUM. 12 0 AND THERE WAS NOTHING IN THE REGULATIONS, 13 NOTHING THAT SAID YOU COULDN'T PUT CANCER ON THE BAG, 14 WAS THERE, SIR? 15 A. NO, THERE WAS NOT, BUT THAT CAME A FEW YEARS 16 LATER. 17 Q. RIGHT, IN 1963 (SIC) OR '90 -- 18 . A. AS A REGULATION OF FEDERAL GOVERNMENT. 19 Q. IN 1983 OR 1984, YOU STARTED TO USE THE WORDS 20 "CANCER" ON YOUR BAG; IS THAT RIGHT. 21 A. THAT'S CORRECT. 22 Q. NOT BEFORE THAT? 23 A. NOT BEFORE THAT. 24 Q, AND YOU KNEW AS OF 1975 THAT ASBESTOS CAUSED 25 CANCER, CORRECT? 26 A. I KNEW THAT. 27 Q. BUT YOU MADE THE DECISION THAT YOU WOULD JUST 28 PUT THE MINIMUM AS REQUIRED BY THE GOVERNMENT ON YOUR DEBORAH L. NEVILLE GSR 9703 * PID0011206 t 755 1 BAG; IS THAT CORRECT? 2 A. I MADE THE DECISION THAT I WOULD PUT ON WHAT 3 WAS REQUIRED BY THE LAW, AND I ALWAYS FOLLOWED THE LAW, 4 AS DID OTHER MILLS AND MINES IN THE ASBESTOS INDUSTRY. 5 Q. NOW, YOU TOLD US THERE WAS DISCUSSION OF 6 ALTERNATIVE LABELS? IS THAT RIGHT? 1 7 A. I DON'T KNOW WHAT YOU'RE REFERRING TO. 8 Q. I'M SORRY. THE ASBESTOS INFORMATION 9 ASSOCIATION DISCUSSED ALTERNATIVE LABELS, THAT'S ONE OF 10 THINGS THAT YOU TALKED ABOUT AT THESE MEETINGS? A. MANY AIA MEETING, YES, SIR.- 12 Q. AND NOT ONLY AT THE AXA, THERE WAS AN 13 INTERNATIONAL BRANCH OF AIA, CORRECT? 14 A. THAT WAS THE INTERNATIONAL AIA, YES. 15 Q. AND IN FACT, YOU WEREN'T JUST A MEMBER OF AIA, 16 YOU WERE A DIRECTOR OF TH AIA? 17 A. NO, I WAS NEVER AN OFFICER. 18 Q. YOU WERE NOT A DIRECTOR? 19 A. NO . 20 Q. OKAY. 21 MR. HAROWITZ: MAY I HAVE MARKED NEXT IN 22 ORDER -- 23 THE WITNESS: .I DIDN'T KNOW I WAS, . 24 MR. HAROWITZ: -- A MARCH 12, 1980 RECORD OF 25 BOARD OF DIRECTORS MEETING OF THE ASBESTOS INFORMATION 26 ASSOCIATION. 27 THE COURT; ALL RIGHT. THAT WILL BE 69 28 {PLAINTIFF'S EXHIBIT 69 MARKED FOR DEBORAH L. NEVILLE CSR 9703 PID00011207 756 1 IDENTIFICATION.> 2 MR. HAROWITZ: MAX I APPROACH, YOUR HONOR? 3 THE COURT! YOU MAY. 4. THE WITNESS: THANK YOU. 5 MR. HAROWXTZ: SURE. 6 Q. TAKE A LOOK AT THE DIRECTORS WHO ATTENDED THIS *jf MEETING. 8 A. I GUESS EVERYBODY WHO ATTENDED WAS A DIRECTOR. 9 I WAS THE REPRESENTATIVE OF CALAVERAS ASBESTOS. 10 Q. LISTED AS ONE THE DIRECTORS? 11 A. IT DOES SAY THAT UP ABOVE, BOARD OF DIRECTORS 12 MEETING. 13 Q. YOU WOULD THEN GET THESE MINUTES FROM THE 14 MEETING, CORRECT? 15 A. THAT'S CORRECT. 16 Q. THEY WOULD TALK ABOUT WHAT'S GOING ON WITH 17 OSHA, EPA, WITH CONGRESSIONAL SHIFTS REGARDING ASBESTOS? IS A. THAT'S TRUE. 19 ,Q AND WITH DIFFERENT STATES? 20 A. CORRECT. 21 Q ONE OF THE DIFFERENT THINGS YOU TALKED ABOUT 22 WAS WHAT OTHER STATES WERE DOING WITH LABELING? 23 A. I DON'T RECALL THAT, BUT THAT'S VERY LIKELY, 24 YES. 25 Q. TAKE A LOOK AT PAGE 3, IF YOUWOULD, PLEASE. 26 A. PAGE THREE. 27 ft. THE BOTTOM, UNDERMASSACHUSETTS; YOU SEE THAT? 28 A. I SEE IT. DEBORAH L. NEVILLE CSR 9703 PID00011208 I 757 1 Q. AND THERE'S REFERENCE THERE TO MASSACHUSETTS 2 ATTEMPTING TO INSTITUTE A LAW THAT WOULD REQUIRE THE 3 SKULL AND CROSSBONES ON ASBESTOS AS A WARNING LABEL; DO 4 YOU SEE THAT? 5 A. I SEE THAT. 6 Q. AND THEN CONNECTICUT ALSO CONSIDERED WHAT TO 7 DO ABOUT LABELING ASBESTOS, AND THIS WAS IN 1980. IT'S 8 THE BOTTOM OF PAGE THREE AND UP TO THE TOP OF PAGE FOUR; 9 YOU SEE THAT? 10 A. I SEE IT. . 11 Q AND CONNECTICUT WAS GOING -- CONNECTICUT WAS 12 GOING TO REQUIRE A LABEL THAT SAYS THE ITEM CONTAINS 13 ASBESTOS AS A CAUSE OF CANCER WHEN INHALED, CORRECT? 14 A. THAT'S CORRECT. 15 Q. . THAT'S ONE OF THINGS THAT YOU TALKED ABOUT AT 16 THE MEETING, AT LEAST IT WOULD REFLECT THAT WAS 17 SOMETHING THAT THE DIRECTORS TALKED ABOUT? 16 A. WE TALKED ABOUT ALL THOSE SORT. OF SAFETY 19 ITEMS, CORRECT. 20 MR. HROWITZ: AND MAY WE HAVE MARKED NEXT IN 21 ORDER A MAY 25, 1979, CORRESPONDENCE FROM JOHN H. MARSH 22 TO DIRECTORS. 23 (PLAINTIFF'S EXHIBIT 70 MARKED FOR 24 IDENTIFICATION.) 25 MR. HROWITZ: MAY I APPROACH? 26 THE COURT: YES, YOU MAY. 27 THE WITNESS: THANK YOU. 28 MR. HROWITZ: DEBORAH L. NEVILLE CSR 9703 PID00011209 758 i Q. WHO WAS MR. MARSH? 2 A. I DON'T SEE HIS TITLE, I DON'T KNOW. 3 Q. AT ANY RATE, YOU READ THIS DOCUMENT, IT WAS IN 4 YOUR FILES. 5 A. SURE. 6 Q. WOULD YOU TURN TO PAGE -- YOU KNOW, THIS IS 7 SET UP NOT WITH PASSAGES. 8 A. WELL, DO THE ITEMS -- 9 Q. PARAGRAPHS 4.13. %wi' ' 10 A. OKAY. YOU SEE, I CAN'T -- .. , 11 Q. ACTUALLY 4.15.1.1. - - 12 A. OKAY -- 13 Q IT'S NOT THAT EITHER. LET ME BACK UP. 14 WHAT IS AN A LOGO, QUOTE, A, CLOSE QUOTE, 15 LOGO? 16 A. I THINK THAT WAS A BLACK AND RED LOGO 17 SIGNIFYING ASBESTOS, WHICH WAS TO BE PLACED ON BAGS. IS Q. WE'LL COME BACK TO THIS PAGE IN A MINUTE. AND 19 I'M SORRY FOR CONFUSING YOU. IF YOU GO DOWN A FEW 20 PAGES, YOU'LL SEE THE PASSAGES START TO GET NUMBERED. 21 ' A. ALL RIGHT. 22 Q. AND I WANT TO TURN TO PAGE 3. 23 A. ALL RIGHT. GOT IT. 24 Q. IT'S UNDER 3.3.1.5, SECOND ITEM FROM THE 25 BOTTOM. HAVE YOU READ THAT? 26 A. HOW FAR DID YOU WISH ME TO GO, SIR? 27 Q. I 'M SORRY, JUST THAT SECTION. 28 WHO IS THE EEC ADVISORY COUNCIL, DO YOU KNOW DEBORAH L. NEVILLE CSR 9703 PID00011210 759 1 WHO THAT IS? 2 A. THAT MUST BE THE EUROPEAN ECONOMICS COUNCIL OR 3 COMMITTEE. 4 Q. OF THE AIA? 5 A. OH, I DON'T KNOW. I THOUGHT EEC WOULD BE THE 6' EUROPEAN ECONOMICS COUNCIL BUT -- 7 Q. MAYBE THIS WAS SOMETHING THAT CAME TOGETHER 8 WITH YOUR AIA MINUTES. SO DID YOU RECEIVE INFORMATION 9 FROM THE EEC ON OCCASION? 10 A. NO, I NEVER DID. BUT EXCUSE ME, IF I MAY ,SA.Y_ 11 IF YOU READ IT, SHOULD THIS LABELING BECOME MANDATORY, < 12 THEN ALL ASBESTOS FIBER COMING INTO THE EEC -- MEANING 13 IT SOUNDS LIKE XT'S A GROUP OF COUNTRIES, SO THAT'S WHY 14 I GOT THE IDEA IT WOULD BE THE EUROPEAN, LIKE THE COMMON 15 MARKET, FOR EXAMPLE. 16 Q. AT ANY RATE, IT INDICATES THAT THIS IS A 17 SUBCOMMITTEE WORKING ON THE SUBJECT OF LABELING. 18 THEY'RE PROPOSING ALL BAGS OF ASBESTOS FIBER ARE 19 LABELED, AND THE PRESENT INTENTION IS TO DECLARE 20 ASBESTOS TOXIC WHICH WOULD AUTOMATICALLY REQUIRE THE 21 SKULL AND CROSS BONES WARNING LABEL. OUR OBJECTIVE IS 22 TO GAIN -- I HAVE QUOTE A CLOSE QUOTE SIGN OF ASBESTOS 23 IS A UNIQUE SUBSTANCE. 24 WHAT DOES THAT MEAN? 25 A. TO ME, THIS MEANS INSTEAD OF PUTTING ON LIKE 26 ON STRYCHNINE, YOUR RAT POISON, THE SKULL AND 27 CROSSBONES, YOU WILL PUT THE BIG A ON IT IN RED AND 28 BLACK, AS I RECALL. BECAUSE ASBESTOS IS A VERY UNIQUE DEBORAH L. NEVILLE CSR 9703 PID0011211 760 1 PRODUCT. 2 Q. AND TO YOUR WAY OP THINKING, WOULD IT BE MORE 3 EFFECTIVE TO PUT A BIG RED A ON THE BAG OR SKULL AND 4 CROSSBONES IF YOU WANTED TO LET PEOPLE KNOW THAT 5 ASBESTOS COULD CAUSE LIFE-THREATENING DISEASE? 6 A. ' I WOULD HAVE -- I WOULD HAVE HAD NO OBJECTION 7 TO THE SKULL AND CROSSBONE ON IT. 8 Q. OKAY. DID YOU EVER CONSIDER USING A SKULL AND 9 CROSSBONE? 10 A. ONLY THROUGH THIS IS WHERE WE HAD HEARD, ABOUT 11 IT. . < - - ' ' 12 Q, NOW, THE AIA, THE ASBESTOS INFORMATION 13 ASSOCIATION, ALSO DEALT WITH OTHER ISSUES THAN LABELING, 14 DID THEY NOT? 15 A. YES, THEY WOULD TALK ABOUT OTHER WORK 16 HAZARDS. THEY WOULD HAVE SEMINARS WHERE YOU COULD GO IN 17 AND MAYBE THERE WOULD BE AN EXPERT ON EXPLOSIVES. WE 18 COULD ATTEND THOSE SEMINARS IF WE WISH. 19 Q. OKAY. AND THEY TALKED ABOUT DIFFERENT FIBER 20 TYPES OF ASBESTOS, DID THEY NOT, AS ONE OF THE ISSUES, 21 FOR EXAMPLE, CROCIDOLITE, AMOSITE, TREMOLITE? 22 YES, I*M SORRY. EXCUSE ME. 23 A. WE DISCUSSED THOSE. 24 .Q. AND HOW TO DEAL WITH THOSE DIFFERENT FIBER 25 TYPES? 26 ft. YES. 27 Q. SIR, IN 1980 -- STRIKE THAT. 28 IN 1981, DIB YOU HAVE AN UNDERSTANDING THAT DEBORAH L. NEVILLE CSR 9703 PID00011212 761 1 CROCIDOLITE WAS A MORE HAZARDOUS FIBER THAN OTHER 2 ASBESTOS FIBERS IN THE DEVELOPMENT OF DISEASE? ______ 3 A. ABSOLUTELY, YES. 4 Q. OKAY. WOULD YOU TURN TO PAGE 9 WHICH IS THE * 5 LAST PAGE OF THE THIS DOCUMENT, 6 AND YOU WERE CERTAINLY A MEMBER OF AIA IN 7 1981, WERE YOU NOT? 8 A. YES, I WAS. 9 Q. AND YOU REMEMBER -- YOU DIDN'T REALIZE YOU 10 WERE A DIRECTOR? . , 11 A. NO, I DIDN'T. . 12 Q. DO YOU KNOW IF YOU WERE A DIRECTOR IN 1981 -- 13 YOU WOULDN'T. I'LL WITHDRAW THAT.. 14 THERE WOULD BE NO FOUNDATION FOR KNOWING YOU 15 WERE A DIRECTOR IF YOU DIDN'T KNOW YOU WERE A DIRECTOR 16 EARLIER. 17 LET ME REFER YOU TO 5.3. 18 A. OKAY. 19 Q 5.3 ON PAGE 9 AT THE TOP, IT'S THE LAST PAGE. 20 MR. WAH: OKAY. 21 MR. HAROWITZ: 22 Q OKAY. YOU'VE READ THAT? AND THAT STATES, 23 "FOLLOWING LENGTHY DISCUSSION, IT WAS,AGREED THAT THE 24 AIA'S POLICY MUST BE TO DEFEND AND SUPPORT CROCIDOLITE 25 (BLUE) ASBESTOS AS FORCIBLY AS POSSIBLE. MEMBERS WERE 26 ASKED TO APPLY THE FOLLOWING GUIDELINES. 27 A, THE RISK IS THE SAME AS OTHER TYPES, AND 28 SHOULD NOT BE AGREED THAT CROCIDOLITE IS MORE DANGEROUS; DEBORAH L. NEVILLE CSR 9703 7 62 i B, FIGHT TO HAVE THAT SAME TLV -- FIGHT TO 2 HAVE THE SAME TLV FOR ALL TYPES, 3 C, SUPPORT BY FURTHER STUDY*" 4 AND THAT WAS THE AIA'S MOTION IN 1981; WAS IT, 5 MR, COATS? 6 A. I THINK THAT WAS THAT DR. ROBOCK MUST HAVE 7 BEEN FROM SOOTH AFRICA WOULD HAVE PROPOSED THIS. I 8 DON'T KNOW, I DOUBT -- THIS IS WHAT THEY'RE PROPOSING 9 BERK AND UNDER NEW BUSINESS, BUT -- OR OTHER BUSINESS. 10 BUT I CERTAINLY WOULD NEVER HAVE SUPPORTED THAT NOR 11 WOULD ANY OTHER COMPANY IN THE INDUSTRY OR ANY COUNTRY 12 OTHER THAN SOUTH AFRICA. 13 Q. OKAY. WOULD YOU TURN TO PAGE 6 THEN. EXCUSE 14 ME, PAGE FIVE. IT'S LIKE FOUR PASSAGES BACK. 15 A. WHAT IS THE -- THE SUBSECTION 3.3.3? 16 A. 3.3.3, OKAY. DOWN AT THE BOTTOM? 17 Q. RIGHT. SEE WHERE IT SAYS, "IT WAS AGREED. n 18 A. NO, IT SAYS "MEDICAL ADVISORY PANEL." 19 Q. RIGHT ABOVE SCIENTIFIC ADVISORY PANEL, THE 20 PARAGRAPH ABOVE THAT. 21 A. DR. ROBOCK. 22 MR. HAROWITZ: MAY X APPROACH, YOUR HONOR? 23 THE COURT! YOU MAY. 24 THE WITNESS: 3.3,3? 25 THIS PART RIGHT HERE, THIS WAS AGREED? 26 MR- HAROWITZ! 27 Q. YES. 28 A. YES, I 'VE READ IT. DEBORAH L. NEVILLE CSR 9703 PID00011214 763 X Q. AND THIS 3.3.3 HAS TO DO WITH THE MEDICAL 2 ADVISORY PANEL AND WHAT THEY HAD TO SAY, CORRECT? 3 A. THAT'S CORRECT. 4 Q AND THAT WAS THE MEDICAL ADVISORY PANEL FROM 5 AUSTRALIA, BELGIUM, FRANCE, SOUTH AFRICA, UK, USA, 6 CANADA, DENMARK, RIGHT? ' * 7 A, RIGHT. 8 AND WHAT THEY SAID WAS, IT WAS AGREED THAT THE 9 AIA 1S POLICY MOST BE NOT TO DISCRIMINATE BETWEEN THE 10 TYPES OF ASBESTOS, AND THE CHAIRMAN THANKED DR. GAYS 11 (PHONETIC) FOR THE TACTFUL WAYS IN HAD WHICH HE HAD 12 POINTED THIS FACT OUT TO THE CHAIRMAN OF THE MAP, 13 CORRECT? ... , 14 A. THAT'S WHAT IT SAYS, YES. 15 Q. THAT WAS THE POLICY OF THE ASBESTOS IG INFORMATION ASSOCIATION AT THAT TIME? 17 A. AT THAT TIME, WHICH I CERTAINLY WOULD NOT HAVE 18 SUPPORTED. 19 . NOW, WOULD YOU AGREE WITH ME, MR. COATS, THAT 20 THE ASBESTOS INFORMATION ASSOCIATION NEGOTIATED WITH THE 21 GOVERNMENT IN SETTING PERMISSIBLE EXPOSURE LIMITS, OR AS 22 YOU CALLED THEM, TLVS? 23 A. YES, I DO BELIEVE THAT THEY PARTICIPATED IN 24 THE SETTING OF STANDARDS. 25 Q. IT WAS ACTUALLY A NEGOTIATING KIND OF 26 ARRANGEMENT WHERE THE INDUSTRY WOULD TAKE ONE POSITION, 27 AND OTHERS WOULD TAKE ANOTHER POSITION, AND THEN THERE 28 WOULD BE A COMPROMISE? DEBORAH L. NEVILLE CSR 9703 P1D00011215 764 1 A. THERE WOULD BE A COMPROMISE, PROBABLY, YES. 3 Q. WERE YOU FAMILIAR WITH SOME OF THE PEOPLE ON ___ __ 3 . THE OTHER SIDE OF ISSUE, THAT IS, WHO WOULD WANT LOWER 4 PERMISSIBLE EXPOSURE LIMITS SUCH AS SELIKOFF; DID YOU 5 KNOW WHAT HIS THOUGHTS WERE ABOUT PELS? 6 A. NO, I DID NOT KNOW. 7 MR. HAROWITZ; YOUR HONOR, I 'M ABOUT TO MOVE 8 INTO ONE FINAL AREA. SHALL I PROCEED OR... 9 THE COURT: NO, I THINK WE SHOULD BREAK HOW- 10 IT'S 1:30. _ _ ^ .... 11 MR. HAROWITZ: OKAY, * 12 THE COURT: UNLESS YOU'RE GOING TO BE THROUGH. 11 MR. HAROWITZ: YOU KNOW, IT'S NOT GOING TO BE 14 THAT QUICK. IT'S NOT GOING TO BE LONG EITHER. 15 THE COURT: WOULD YOU APPROACH, PLEASE? 16 (COUNSEL APPROACH THE BENCH.) 17 THE COURT ; ALL RIGHT , WE ARE GOING TO RECESS 18 FOR THIS AFTERNOON NOW IN JUST A MINUTE. MR. COATS, 1? YOU'RE NOT EXCUSED FROM TESTIFYING. 20 THE WITNESS: I UNDERSTAND. 21 THE COURT: YOU WILL NEED TO COME BACK AND THE 22 ATTORNEYS -- MR. WAH WILL SPEAK WITH YOU ABOUT 23 SCHEDULING A TIME FOR YOU TO COME BACK THAT WORKS. 24 THE WITNESS: THANK YOU, 25 THE COURT: THAT WORKS FOR EVERYONE, 26 HOPEFULLY. AND I WANT TO ADVISE THE JURY, I TOLD YOU 27 THAT I WILL TRY TO LET YOU KNOW AS SOON AS WE KNOW IF 28 THERE MIGHT BE SOME CHANGES IN OUR SCHEDULE TO BE DEBORAH L. NEVILLE CSR 9703 PID00011216 7 69 1 Q. ARE yOU FAMILIAR WITH THESE DOCUMENTS? 2 A. I DON'S! RECALL THEM, BUT I'M SURE I RECEIVED 3 II AND X KNEW THAT THAT WAS THE PURPOSE OF THE AIA/NORTH 4 AMERICA. 5 Q. AND WHS DO YOU BELIEVE YOU RECEIVED THESE 6 DOCUMENTS? 7 A. BECAUSE WE WERE MEMBERS OF AIA/NORTH AMERICA. 8 Q. AND YOU PERSONALLY YOU DON'T RECALL DIRECTLY, 9 YOU PERSONALLY, WERE SOMEONE WHO ATTENDED THE MEETINGS 10 OF AIA? # ^ ___ 11 A, NOT ALL OF THE MEETINGS. I- WOULD ATTEND THE 12 ANNUAL MEETING. 13 Q. AND IF INFORMATION SUCH AS THIS CAME TO 14 CALAVERAS ASBESTOS COMPANY, WOULD YOU RECEIVE IT 15 PERSONALLY? 16 A. YES, IT WOULD GET TO MY DESK. 17 Q. AND DID YOU MAKE AN EFFORT TO REVIEW MATERIAL 18 THAT YOU RECEIVED FROM THE AIA? 19 A. YES, I DID. 20 Q. SIR, THE POSITION STATEMENT THAT IS ATTACHED 21 TO THE LETTER -- STRIKE THAT, 22 LET ME ASK YOU FIRST, WHO'S MR. PETRIE? 23 A. I DO NOT KNOW MR. PETRIE. 24 Q. WHO IS MR. PIGG? 25 A. MR. PIGG WAS THE EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR OF THE 26 AIA/NORTH AMERICA. 27. Q. AND YOU ARE FAMILIAR WITH THE POSITION OF THE 28 AIA ON ASBESTOS, CORRECT? DEBORAH L. NEVILLE CSR 9703 PID00011221 770 X A AS STATED IN THIS LETTER? 2 Q. YES. 3 A YES, X AM. 4 Q. OKAY. WOULD YOU FIRST READ THE FIRST 5 PARAGRAPH OF THE POSITION STATEMENT. 6 ft, YOU MEAN FOLLOWING WHERE IT SAYS THE 7 OBJECTIVES OR AT THE TOP? 8 Q. AT THE TOP. THE FIRST FULL PARAGRAPH, 9 A "THE ASBESTOS INFORMATION ASSOCIATION/NORTH 10 AMERICA, (AIA/NA), IS AN INCORPORATED NONPROFIT .. 11 ORGANIZATION OF 54 FIRMS ENGAGED IN THE MANUFACTURE AND 12 SALE OF PRODUCTS CONTAINING ASBESTOS FIBER OR IN THE 13 MINING, MILLING, OR SALE OF ASBESTOS FIBER IN NORTH i 14 AMERICA," 15 Q SIR, DOES THIS PARTICULAR DOCUMENT INDICATING 16 THE POSITION OF THE ASBESTOS INFORMATION ASSOCIATION 17 REFRESH YOUR MEMORY THAT IN FACT THERE WERE MANUFACTURES 18 OF ASBESTOS-CONTAINING PRODUCTS THAT WERE MEMBERS? 19 A. YES. 20 g, AND THIS WAS IN 1979? 21 ft, . YES, IT IS FIVE YEARS AFTER WE STARTED -- FOUR 22 YEARS AFTER WE WERE IN BUSINESS, YES. 23 Q. OKAY. THEN COULD YOU GO TO THE LAST PARAGRAPH 24 ON THE PAGE, IT'S A FAIRLY LONG PARAGRAPH. 25 A. YES. 26 0. COULD YOU READ THAT FOR THE JURY, PLEASE? 27 A. "THIS ASSOCIATION IS UNAWARE OF ANY SCIENTIFIC 28 EVIDENCE WHICH INDICATES THAT ASBESTOS PRESENTS AN DEBORAH L. NEVILLE CSR 9703 PID00011222 1 INCREASED HEALTH RISK TO THE GENERAL PUBLIC. 771 LIKE IN 2 MOST ASBESTOS-CONTAINING PRODUCTS, THE FIBERS ARE QUOTE, 3 LOCKES IN, CLOSE QUOTE, BY CEMENT, PLASTIC OR OTHER 4 BINDERS. SUCH FIBERS ARE NOT EASILY RELEASED DURING 5 NORMAL HANDLING AND APPLICATION. ASBESTOS-RELATED 6 DISEASE TODAY IS CONFINED PRIMARILY TO INDIVIDUALS FROM 7 OCCUPATIONAL AND OCCUPATIONALLY-RELATED ENVIRONMENTS AND 8 RELATES DIRECTLY TO THE INHALATION OF HIGH LEVELS OF 9 ASBESTOS DUST IN THE PAST. WORKING ENVIRONMENTS OF THE 10 PAST CANNOT BE RELATED TO PRESENT REGULATED CONDITIONS. 11 MEDICAL RESEARCH INDICATES THAT THERE IS A DOSE-RESPONSE 12 RELATIONSHIP IN THE DEVELOPMENT OF ASBESTOS-RELATED 13 DISEASE. THUS, THE ASBESTOS INDUSTRY IS CONFIDENT 14 THAT WITH PROPER PRECAUTIONS, ASBESTOS AND 15 ASBESTOS-CONTAINING PRODUCTS CAN CONTINUE TO BE USED IN 16 MANY INDUSTRIAL AND CONSUMER PRODUCTS WITHOUT RISK TO 17 THE HEALTH OF PEOPLE MAKING OR USING THESE PRODUCTS." 18 Q> THAT'S FINE. THANK YOU. 19 SO MR. COATS, IS THAT YOUR UNDERSTANDING OF 20 THE POSITION OF THE ASBESTOS INFORMATION ASSOCIATION IN 21 1979? 22 A. YES, IT IS.. ' , 23 Q. AND WAS IT THE ASBESTOS INFORMATION 24 ASSOCIATION'S POSITION, AND YOU WERE A MEMBER OF THAT 25 ASSOCIATION, THAT IF THE LEVEL OF EXPOSURE TO ASBESTOS 26 WAS KEPT WITHIN THE PERMISSIBLE EXPOSURE LEVELS, OR THE 27 TLVS AS YOU CALLED THEN, PEOPLE WEREN'T GOING TO GET 28 SICK? DEBORAH "L. N E V I L L E C S R 53703 PID011223 ...... 772 1 A. IF THE EXPOSURE WAS LIMITED TO THOSE TLVS 2 MANDATED BY THE ENVIRONMENTAL AGENCIES, BE IT MSHA, OSHA 3 o r ~e p a 7 THAT THE PEOPLE MOST LIKELY WOULD NOT BE EXPOSED ~~ 4 TO AN ASBESTOS-RELATED DISEASE. 5 Q. DID YOU BELIEVE.THAT PEOPLE WHO WORKED IN 6 ENVIRONMENTS SUCH AS THE ENVIRONMENT AT YOUR MINE AND 7 MILL, THE LEVELS WERE KEPT TO TWO FIBERS PER CUBIC 8 CENTIMETER, THAT THOSE PEOPLE WERE NOT AT RISK FOR THE 9 DEVELOPMENT OF AN ASBESTOS-RELATED DISEASE? 10 A. THAT IS WHAT WE BELIEVED. 11 Q. BUT YOU WERE WRONG, CORRECT? 12 A. NO. 13 Q. OKAY. SIR, THEN CAN YOU EXPLAIN MICHAEL 14 HAAS'S SITUATION? 15 MR. WAH: OBJECTION; YOUR HONOR, 16 ARGUMENTATIVE; LACKS FOUNDATION. 17 THE COURT: SUSTAINED. 18 MR. HAROWITZ: 19 Q. MR. COATS, DID YOU EVER VISIT THE 20 JOHNS-MANSVILLE PLANT IN STOCKTON? 21 A. YES/ I DID. 22 Q. AND DID YOU TAKE NOTE OF WHETHER THE 23 JOHNS-MANSVILLE PLANT IN STOCKTON HAD THE SAME KIND OF 24 EQUIPMENT THAT IS TO REMOVE ASBESTOS FROM THE AIR AS YOU 25 HAD AT THE MILL AND MINE? 26 A. IT WAS NOT PRECISELY THE SAME, BUT IT 27 PERFORMED THE SAME FUNCTION. 28 Q. TO BRING THE LEVELS DOWN TO THE OSHA REGULATED DEBORAH L. NEVILLE CSR 9703 *t '*'!f _ > -... 1 PID00011224 773 1 FIBERS PER CUBIC CENTIMETER? 2 A. YES. 3 q 7 DID YOU VISIT -- EXCUSE ME . 4 DID YOU VISIT THE OPERATIONS OF OTHER 5 CUSTOMERS DURING THE TIME PERIOD THAT YOU HAD THE MINE 6 OPEN? LET'S LIMIT IT TO 1976 TO 1981. > 7 A. IN THE UNITED STATES YOU'RE REFERRING TO? 8 Q. FIRST, LET'S START THERE. 9 A. I WAS ONLY ALLOWED IN ONE OTHER PLANT, AMD 1 THAT WAS THE PABCO VANBUREN (PHONETIC) PLANT IN 11 VANBUREN, .ARKANSAS. - 12 Q. DID THAT PLANT HAVE THE SAME TYPE OF 13 OCCUPATIONAL EQUIPMENT TO KEEP THE LEVELS OF ASBESTOS 14 DOWN THAT YOU HAD AT YOUR OPERATION? 15 A. NOT THE IDENTICAL EQUIPMENT, BUT EQUIPMENT 16 THAT WOULD PERFORM THE SAME FUNCTION, YES. 17 Q. AND WERE THERE OTHER CUSTOMERS'. PLANTS THAT 18 YOU WERE NOT ALLOWED? 19 A. THE CERTAINTEED PLANTS. 20 Q. YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT KIND OF EQUIPMENT 21 CERTAINTEED PLANT HAD TO KEEP THE ASBESTOS LEVELS DOWN? 22 A. NO. 23 Q. INTERNATIONALLY, DID YOU VISIT THE PLANTS OF 24 CUSTOMERS WHERE ASBESTOS WAS USED? 25 A. I VISITED GENERALLY WHEN YOU WENT OVERSEAS. 26 YOU WERE NOT ALLOWED TO GO INTO THE PRODUCTION AREAS. 27 YOU WERE ALLOWED TO ENTER THE OFFICES AND DISCUSS 28 WHATEVER BUSINESS YOU HAD IN MIND. SO I WAS THE DEBORAH L. NEVILLE GSR 9703 PID00011225 774 SALESMAN AND THAT'S WHAT WE DISCUSSED, EXCUSE ME, I'M 2 TRYING TO THINK OF THE DIFFERENT COUNTRIES. I DON'T 3 THINK I WAS ALLOWED IN ANY OF THE MANUFACTURING 4 FACILITIES, 5 Q. SO YOU DID NOT KNOW WHAT TYPE OF EQUIPMENT WAS 6 In p l a c e t h o s e f o r e i g n c o m p a n i e s h a d t o k e e p t h e l e v e l s 7 OF ASBESTOS DOWN? 8 A. NO, I WAS NOT AWARE, 9 Q, YOU DIDN'T KNOW WHAT TYPES OF RESPIRATORS, IF 10 ANY, WERE BEING USED IN THOSE PLANTS? ;> , 11 A. I WAS NOT ALLOWED IN THE PLANTS. 12 Q. OR WHAT TYPES OF ASBESTOS-COLLECTION SYSTEMS 13 WERE IN PLACE IN THOSE PLANTS? 14 A,. NO, X HAD NO KNOWLEDGE OF THAT. 15 Q. , NOW, MR. COATS, THE REASON THAT YOU BOUGHT THE 16 CALAVERAS MINE, WHICH WAS THEN NOT CALLED THE CALAVERAS 17 MINE, BUT HAD PREVIOUSLY BEEN THE PACIFIC ASBESTOS MINE, 18 WAS THAT YOU THOUGHT THAT YOU COULD OPERATE THE MINE 19 PROFITABLY? AM I CORRECT? 20 A. THAT'S CORRECT. 21 Q. AND YOU CONTINUED TO RUN THE MINE BECAUSE YOU 22 FELT AS THOUGH YOU COULD CONTINUE TO OPERATE IT 23 PROFITABLY? 24 A. THAT'S CORRECT. 25 Q. AND YOU STOPPED THE PRODUCTION OF ASBESTOS 26 FROM THE MINE IN 1987? 27 A. DECEMBER 1987. 28 Q. AND THE REASON YOU STOPPED WAS BECAUSE YOU DEBORAH L, NEVILLE GSR 9703' PID00011226 775 i BASICALLY BAN OUT OF ASBESTOS ORE, OR CAME VERY CLOSE TO 2 RUNNING OUT OF ASBESTOS ORE? 3 A. THE SHORT ANSWER IS YES, THAT'S XT. BUT IF 4 YOU WISH, I WOULD BE GLAD TO EXPLAIN. 5 Q. FINE. GO AHEAD. 6 A. WHEN YOU MINE, IF YOU REMEMBER YESTERDAY WE 7 DREW A PICTURE OF THE INTERIOR OF THE PIT WITH THE 8 BENCHES. NOW, THERE WAS THROUGH GEOLOGICAL STUDY MORE 9 ORE, THAT'S ROCK AND SERPENTINE ROCK CONTAINING ASBESTOS 10 FIBER, DOWN AT THE BOTTOM AND OUT UNDERNEATH THESE 11 BENCHES. TO GET TO IT WE WOULD HAVE HAD TO START AT THE . 12 TOP AGAIN, GO BACK MAYBE 300 YARDS AND START ALL OVER 13 AGAIN. AND WE WOULD HAVE HAD TO GO DOWN MAYBE 500 FEET 14 BEFORE WE EVER HAD HIT ANY ASBESTOS ORE AGAIN. THE 15 COST, AS I RECALL, WOULD HAVE BEEN IN EXCESS OF FIVE 16 MILLION DOLLARS, AND MANAGEMENT DECIDED, THEY MADE THE 17 RECOMMENDATION TO OUR BOARD THAT WE CEASE OPERATIONS IN 18 DECEMBER OF 1987. 19 Q. THAT TYPE OF COST WOULD PRODUCE A SITUATION 20 WHERE YOU COULD NO LONGER PROFITABLY OPERATE THE MINE? 21 A. THAT'S CORRECT. 22 Q. AND THEN AT THAT POINT THE MINE WAS TURNED 23 INTO. A LANDFILL? 24 A. AFTER WE CEASED OPERATION, I APPLIED TO THE 25 VARIOUS AGENCIES TO GET A PERMIT TO ESTABLISH THE FIRST 26 ASBESTOS-CONTAINING WASTE ONLY LANDFILL IN THE UNITED 27 STATES THAT WOULD BE CALLED A MONO-FILL, MEANING WE 28 COULD NOT ACCEPT ANY OTHER FORM OF WASTE. IT HAD TO DEBORAH L. NEVILLE., CSR 9703 PID00011227 776 i CONTAIN SOME ASBESTOS AND WE COULD CONTROL IT RIGHT 2 THERE * 3 Q. THEN AT THAT POINT THE SITE WAS USED, IN 4 EFFECT, TO RETURN ASBESTOS TO THE EARTH? 5 A. WHICH MAYBE WILL BE DUG OUT AGAIN IN 100 6 YEARS. 7 Q. OKAY. 8 MR. HAROWITZ: YOUR HONOR,. MAY I APPROACH? 9 10 . THE COURT: YOU MAY. MR. HAROWITZ: ;./^ ^ ' 11 Q. MR. COATS, I 'M GOING TO SHOW YOU WHAT I HAS 12 ASKED THE CLERK TO MARK AS EXHIBIT 73, AND I 'M ALSO 13 GOING TO RETURN TO Y O U -- 14 THE COURT: DO WE NOT HAVE A 72? 15 MR. HAROWITZ! WE DO, I HAVEN'T USED IT YET. 16 MAY I APPROACH THE CLERK FOR A MOMENT? 17 THE COURT: YES, YOU MAY. 18 MR. HAROWITZ: MAY I APPROACH THE WITNESS? 19 THE COURT: YOU MAY. 20 MR. HAROWITZ: 21 Q. SIR, I 'M GOING TO RETURN TO YOU 62-B WHICH ARE 22 THOSE NOTES THAT WE TALKED ABOUT YESTERDAY THAT I HAD 23 SUGGESTED MIGHT BE FROM A SPEECH. 24 A. OH, YES. YES. 25 . AND I 'M ALSO GOING TO SHOW YOU 73 WHICH ARE 26 SOME TYPEWRITTEN NOTES, AND X WANT YOU TO LOOK AT THOSE 27 AND SEE IF THAT REFRESHES. YOUR MEMORY AS HAVING EVER 28 GIVEN THAT SPEECH AT THE UNIVERSITY. OF NEVADA, RENO. DEBORAH L. NEVILLE CSR 9703 PID00011228 a , 111 A, THIS LOOKS LIKE IT'S TAKEN FROM THIS; IS THAT 2 CORRECT? 3 Q. WELL, 1 DON'T KNOW. AND THAT'S WHAT I WAS 4 ASKING KQU. WHEN YOU SAY THIS, YOU'RE REFERRING TO 5 WHICH IS NUMBER.., 6 A. 73 APPEARS TO BE A SHORTENED FORM AND 7 TYPEWRITTEN OF SOME OF THE NOTES THAT I HAD IN THIS 8 LONGHAND DOCUMENT. 9 Q. OKAY. ARE THOSE YOUR HANDWRITTEN NOTES ON THE 10 73 DOCUMENT? 11 A. YES, THESE ARE MY NOTES. 12 Q. DO YOU SEE THERE WHERE YOU SAID UNDER -- 13 MR. MAH: WAIT A MINUTE. I'M GOING TO OBJECT, 14 IT'S AN INCOMPLETE DOCUMENT. IT'S ONLY ONE PAGE. 15 , THE COURT: FIRST OF ALL, THERE ISN'T A FULL 16 QUESTION PENDING SO LET MR. HAROWITZ ASK WHATEVER 17 QUESTIO.N HE INTENDS TO ASK. AN.D THEtN, MR. COATS, PLEASE 18 PAUSE BEFORE YOU START YOUR ANSWER SO I CAN SEE WHETHER 19 THERE'S AN OBJECTION AND HAVE AN OPPORTUNITY TO RULE ON . 20 IT. 21 MR. HAROWITZ: 22 Q. ON THIS TYPEWRITTEN SHEET, DO YOU SEE WHERE 23 IT'S INDICATED, FOREIGNERS, QUOTE, LAUGHING, CLOSE QUOTE 24 AT US. IT'S F? yS 25 A. YES, UP ABOVE. 26 Q. WHAT DID YOU MEAN BY THAT, SIR? 27 MR. WAN: ALL RIGHT. MAY WE APPROACH, YOUR 28 HONOR? DEBORAH L. NEVILLE ' CSR 9703 PID00011229 778 1 THE COURT! YOU MAY. 2 (COUNSEL APPROACH THE BENCH.) 3 THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. OVERRULED. 4 MR. HAROWITZ: 5 Q. MR. COATS, WHAT DID YOU MEAN BY FOREIGNERS, 6 QUOTE, LAUGHING AT US, CLOSE QUOTES? 7 A MR. HAROWITZ, D, E, F, AND G, AND 1 DON'T KNOW 8 WHAT A, B, AND C IS. WHAT WOULD BE THE GENERAL TITLE OF 9 THAT? DO YOU HAVE THAT, PLEASE? 10 Q. I DON'T, MR. COATS, BECAUSE THAT IS WHAT WAS 11 GIVEN TO ME BY YOUR COUNSEL. I- DON'T HAVE THE FIRST 12 PAGE. I WISH I DID. 13 A. BECAUSE WE ARE TALKING -- IT'S SO CONFUSING. 14 WE ARE TALKING ABOUT STEEL AND HOUSES, AUTOMOBILES, AND 15 FOREIGNERS. 16 Q. IF YOU DON'T KNOW, SIR.., 17 A. YES, 1 DON'T KNOW WHAT 1 WAS REFERRING TO 18 THERE. ,19 Q. WOULD YOU READ THE HANDWRITTEN NOTE NEXT TO 20 WHERE IT SAYS, FOREIGNERS, QUOTE, LAUGHING, CLOSE QUOTE, 21 LAUGHING AT US. THAT'S IN YOUR HANDWRITING? 22 A. I THINK BUS, BUSINESS HAS 4,400 DIFFERENT 23 FORMS PER YEAR WHICH REQUIRE 143 MAN HOURS -- OH, 24 143,000 MAN HOURS TO COMPLETE WHICH COST A 25 BILLION 25 DOLLAR EXPENSE. GENERAL MOTORS SPENDS ONE BILLION 26 DOLLARS PER YEAR, WHICH IS EQUIVALENT TO ONE-THIRD OF 27 THEIR NET PROFITS. 41 REGULATORY AGENCIES COST, COST 28 INCREASE 100 PERCENT IN FIVE YEARS.. DEBORAH L. NEVILLE CSR 9703 PID00011230 * 1 779 Q. OKAY. DOES THAT REFRESH YOUR MEMORY AS TO 2 WHAT YOU MEANT FOREIGNERS, QUOTE, LAUGHING AT US, CLOSE B 3 QUOTE? 4 , A. WELL, I 'M NOT SO SURE THAT THOSE HANDWRITTEN 5 NOTES ARE IN -- NECESSARILY IN RELATION TO FOREIGNERS 6 LAUGHING. IF WE ASSUME THAT LAUGHING MEANT THE 7 FOREIGNERS WHERE WHEN -- IF I CAN ASSUME THIS, BUT I 8 WOULD SAY THAT BECAUSE WE FILED SO MANY MORE FORMS THAN 780 1 CAN STATE THAT. AND WE'LL PROCEED FROM THERE. 2 THE WITNESS: I THINK I WOULD AGREE IT SAYS 3 PEOPLE ON A -- THEN I CAN'T READ THE LAST WORD, THEN I 4 CAN'T READ THE LAST TWO WORDS ON MY COPY. 5 MR. HAROWITZ: MAY I APPROACH, YOUR HONOR? THESE SAME PEOPLE WHO THEY PROFESS TO BE PROTECTING. n wrnm.n no TRVTN SELIKOFF BE ONE OF THOSE 1 MR. HAROWITZ: Q. ON THE LAST PAGE OP EXHIBIT NUMBER 62-B, AGAIN 3 THIS IS IK YOUR HANDWRITING; IS IT NOT? 4 A. THIS IS IN MY HANDWRITING. 5 Q. WOULD YOU READ THAT LINE THERE THAT STARTS