Document mqYnOdRnmMgLNqV36GNaE03b0

FILE NAME: Ford (FD) DATE: 1998 May 4 DOC#: FD032 DOCUMENT DESCRIPTION: Legal - Deposition of Arnold Anderson CAUSE NO. 94-007165 STEPHEN F. BLOCK, JR. and RITA BLOCK, plaintiffs, -vs- IN THE DISTRICT COURT OF HARRIS COUNTY, TEXAS MAREMONT CORPORATION, ET AL. Defendants. 215TH JUDICIAL DISTRICT V I D E O D E P O S I T I O N OF ARNOLD ANDERSON Dickinson Wright 500 Woodward Avenue, Ste. 4000 Detroit, MI 48226 APPEARANCES: FOR PLAINTIFF: FOR DEFENDANT FORD: FOR DEFENDANT FORD: May 4, 1998 10:35 a.m. COOK, BUTLER & DOYLE 4 Houston Center 1221 Lamar, Ste. 1300 Houston, Texas 77010 BY: MR. RUSSELL L. COOK, JR. MS. LYNN BRADSHAW DICKINSON WRIGHT 500 Woodward Avenue, STe. Detroit, MI 48226 BY: MR. ROBERT S. KRAUSE 4000 CALLIER & GARZA 1301 McKinney, Ste. 3138 Houston, Texas 77010 BY: MR. BERNARDO S. GARZA REPORTER: Patricia R. Murray, CSR PATRICIA MURRAY & ASSOCIATES BRIGHTON (810) 229-8238 ANN ARBOR QOC.oejr APPEARANCES (Con't): FOR DEFENDANT CHRYSLER: FEIKENS, VANDER MALE, STEVENS, BELLAMY & GILCHRIST One Detroit Center 500 Woodward Avenue, Ste. 3400 Detroit, MI 48226 BY: MR. ROBERT H. FEIKENS FOR DEFENDANT ABEX: POLING, MC GAW & POLING 5435 Corporate Drive, Ste. 275 Troy, MI 48098 BY: MR. RICHARD B. POLING, JR. MS. VERONICA B. O'HARA FOR DEFENDANT MORTON: LAURA D. MASON, P.C. The Rembrandt Building 19678 Harper Avenue, Ste. 101 Grosse Pointe Woods, MI 48236 BY: MS. LAURA D. MASON FOR DEFENDANT ALLIED Sc GM: THOMPSON & KNIGHT 3300 First City Center 1700 Pacific Avenue Dallas, Texas 75201 BY: MS. DAWN MARIE WRIGHT FOR DEFENDANT BRIDGESTONE/ FIRESTONE: BAKER & BOTTS One Shell Plaza 910 Louisiana Houston, Texas 77002 BY: MR. GEORGE T. SHIPLEY ALSO PRESENT: HARDIN, COOK, LOPER, ENGEL Lake Merritt Plaza 1999 Harrison Street, 18th Oakland, CA 94612 BY: MR. TROY D. MC MAHAN & BERGEZ Floor PATRICIA MURRAY & ASSOCIATES BRIGHTON (810) 229-8238 ANN ARBOR (313) 995-9545 INDEX WITNESS : ARNOLD ANDERSON Examination by Mr. Cook PAGE NO. 5 EXHIBIT INDEX EXHIBIT NO . DESCRIPTION 1 2 ' 3 4 Curriculum Vitae Technical Service Bulletin 99 May 29, 1973 memo to J. Keller Carcinogen Task Force Report to E&R and M&S Subcommittees PAGE NO. j 1 6 25 32 41 PATRICIA MURRAY & ASSOCIATES BRIGHTON (810) 229-8238 ANN ARBOR (313) 995-9545 ARNOLD ANDERSON 1 Detroit, Michigan 2 May 4, 1998 3 10:42 a.m. 4 5 THE TECHNICIAN: Today's date is May 4, 6 1998 and we're on the record at 10:42 a.m. This is 7 the video deposition of Mr. Arnold Anderson at the 8 offices of Dickinson Wright in Detroit, Michigan. 9 This is the matter of Block versus Maremont 10 Corporation et a l . 11 Counsel, can you put your appearances on 12 the record, please? 13 MR. COOK: Russell Cook and Lynn Bradshaw 14 for plaintiffs. 15 MR. KRAUSE: Robert Krause on behalf of 16 Ford Motor Company. 17 MR. GARZA: Bernard Garza, Ford Motor 18 Company. 19 MS. WRIGHT: Dawn Wright, on behalf of 20 Allied Signal and General Motors. 21 MR. MC MAHAN: Troy McMahan, Ford Motor 22 Company. 23 MR. SHIPLEY: George Shipley, Bridgestone/ 24 Firestone. 25 MS. MASON: Laura Mason, for Morton PATRICIA MURRAY & ASSOCIATES BRIGHTON (810) 229-8238 ANN ARBOR (313) 995-9545 ARNOLD ANDERSON 5 ______ .---------------- -- 1 International. 2 MR. POLING: Richard B. Poling, Jr., on 3 behalf of Abex Corporation. 4 ARNOLD ANDERSON 5 called as a witness by the Plaintiff, being first 6 duly sworn, was examined and testified as follows: 7 EXAMINATION 8 BY MR. COOK: 9 Q. Please state your full name for the record, sir. 10 A. Arnold Eric Anderson. 11 Q. Mr. Anderson, you are here today as corporate 12 representative for Ford Motor Company, am I correct? 13 A. 14 Q. I believe so. Let me hand to you what has been marked as Exhibit 1 15 16 A. 17 and ask you if you have seen this. No, I have not. The information is information I received on the telephone but I have not seen this 18 19 Q. 20 document. From the standpoint ofinformation you've received on the telephone, are you talking about the notice 21 of deposition? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. And the areas that were to becovered in the 24 deposition? 25 A. Yes. PATRICIA MURRAY & ASSOCIATES BRIGHTON (810) 229-8238 ANN ARBOR (313) 995-9545 1 Q. 6 ARNOLD ANDERSON Are you here today as the representative for Ford 2 Motor Company as the person best able to testify as 3 to those areas? 4 A. Ford Motor Company must think so. I'm a retiree 5 so I'm not in a position to make that judgment for 6 Ford Motor Company. 7 THE TECHNICIAN: Off the record at 10:45 8 a .m. 9 We're back on the record at 10:46. 10 11 (Deposition Exhibit No. 1 was marked.) 12 BY MR. COOK: 13 Q. Mr. Anderson, have you had a chance to read that 14 deposition notice while we were taking the break? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. Can we go through the four areas that are listed 17 there and would you first read number 1 into the 18 record? 19 A. "Any and all industrial hygiene studies conducted by 20 or on behalf of Ford Motor Company to evaluate 21 worker exposure to asbestos dust during brake or 22 clutch maintenance or repair." 23 Q. Do you have any knowledge of that area? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. Number 2? PATRICIA MURRAY & ASSOCIATES BRIGHTON (810) 229-8238 ANN ARBOR (313) 995-9545 1 A. 2 3 Q. 4 A. 5 Q. 6 A. 7 8 9 Q. 10 A. 11 Q. 12 A. 13 14 15 16 17 Q. 18 A. 19 Q. 20 A. 21 Q. 22 23 A. 24 25 Q. 7 ARNOLD ANDERSON "Ford Motor Company policies and/or procedures for brake or clutch maintenance or repair." Do you have anyknowledge of thatarea? Yes, I do. No. 3? "The Medical link between inhalation of asbestos-containing dust and asbestosis, lung cancer, mesothelioma and gastrointestinal cancer." Do you have any knowledge about that area? Yes, sir. No. 4? "Any and all studies performed by Ford Motor Company concerning fiber release from asbestos-containing products (brakes, clutches and gaskets) during grinding, sanding and/or filing, or other procedures." Do you have any information about that area? Yes. Did you bring with you today any documents? No, I did not. Do you have any personal documents at home that relate to any of these areas? I have quite a number of file cabinets with information on the subject, yes. At your house? PATRICIA MURRAY & ASSOCIATES BRIGHTON (810) 229-8238 ANN ARBOR (313) 995-9545 1 A. 2 Q. 3 A. 4 Q. 5 6 A. 7 8 9 10 Q. 11 A. 12 Q. 13 14 15 16 17 A. 18 Q. 19 20 A. 21 Q. 22 A. 23 24 Q. 25 A. 8 ARNOLD ANDERSON At my home, yes. Where did those file cabinets come from? I bought them. Where did the information come from that's in those file cabinets? Quite a number of sources, some from libraries, some I obtained personally over a time period from technical society meetings, large numbers -- plus a number of documents that I wrote myself. While you were at Ford Motor Company? And after, yes. We will be filing a motion to take a look at your files so we would ask that you preserve any information that is in those files that might relate to any of the areas we've asked you about today or asbestos generally. All right. Now, sir, have you ever given your deposition before? Yes, I have. On how many occasions? I never kept track. I would imagine by now it must be around 20. When did you start? About 19 -- somewhere around 1980, I think. PATRICIA MURRAY & ASSOCIATES BRIGHTON (810) 229-8238 ANN ARBOR (313) 995-9545 1 Q. 2 A. 3 Q. 4 A. 5 6 7 Q. 8 9 10 A. 11 Q. 12 13 14 15 16 A. 17 Q. 18 19 20 A. 21 Q. 22 23 24 A. 25 Q. 9 ARNOLD ANDERSON How many of these depositions related to asbestos? Ten probably, maybe one or two more, I don't know. What did the others relate to? Mostly brakes and clutches, one form or another, with regard to performance, about the safety issues, diagnostics. There are certain engineers at Ford Motor Company that are assigned to litigation. Are you one of those engineers? No, never have been. Since you've given your deposition on a number of occasions you know even though we're sitting here informally this proceeding has the same significance, force and effect as if we were before a judge and jury in a courtroom? I'm aware of that. If I ask you a question and you don't understand what I'm asking, will you stop me and tell me you don't understand? You can count on it. If I ask you any more questions about where did you get the file cabinets, you can tell me about that, too. I'll answer your questions. That's what you're supposed to do. PATRICIA MURRAY & ASSOCIATES BRIGHTON (810) 229-8238 ANN ARBOR (313) 995-9545 10 ARNOLD ANDERSON 1 So when did Ford Motor Company quit selling 2 vehicles that had asbestos in their brakes? 3 MR. KRAUSE: You mean by model first or 4 what are you talking about? 5 BY MR. COOK: 6 Q. The last time a Ford Motor Company vehicle 7 was sold containing asbestos in the brake 8 assemblies. 9 A. Of all the vehicles made including the trucks, I do 10 not know absolutely but I believe it would have been 11 somewhere around 1992, perhaps '93. 12 Q. How about if I take out the trucks and just go with 13 cars? 14 A. That would be somewhat earlier, I would have to 15 check through the records on that. That happened 16 after I retired so I did not have privy to the full 17 information on that. 18 Q. When did you retire? 19 A. 1987. 20 Q. So it would have been sometime between '87 and 1992 21 that they stopped using -- selling vehicles with 22 brakes containing asbestos? 23 A. Right. Probably early '90s. I believe there was 24 one or two applications that they had no effective 25 substitute. PATRICIA MURRAY & ASSOCIATES BRIGHTON (810) 229-8238 ANN ARBOR (313) 995-9545 1 Q. 2 3 4 A. 5 6 Q. 7 8 9 A. 10 11 12 13 Q. 14 A. 15 16 17 Q. 18 A. 19 20 21 22 Q. 23 24 A. 25 11 ARNOLD ANDERSON I want to ask you about that. Was there a particular type of brake that needed asbestos to perform? I don't understand that question the way you worded it. I'm trying to -- and it's a poor question. When did Ford Motor Company start looking for substitutes for asbestos in their brakes? Well, to look for substitutes to get rid of asbestos or to look for some material other than asbestos for whatever reason, because there were two separate investigations? Let's talk about whichever one came first. The first one was the late '60s for performance enhancement. was 1969. Perhaps it was 1970 but I believe it What was the purpose of that study? To find some brake linings with improved green fade, in other words, so hard usage early in the life would produce somewhat higher friction or less friction loss. Was it thought that perhaps that could be achieved by finding a substitute for asbestos? Yes. it was believed the water from the chrysotile asbestosis was contributing to the green fade. PATRICIA MURRAY & ASSOCIATES BRIGHTON (810) 229-8238 ANN ARBOR (313) 995-9545 1 Q. 2 A. 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 Q. 10 11 A. 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 Q. 23 24 25 A. 12 ___________ ARNOLD A N D E R S O N ___________________________ Then when was the next study done? That would have been a little further into the '70s, looking at potential replacement materials for asbestos and there were different time periods involved in the research area. We were looking at it somewhat earlier than in the divisions because the divisions had to go through the brake suppliers and brake lining suppliers to get work done. I'm not sure I understood that. Tell me what you mean by the research area you were looking at. I was in the scientific research staff. We did some research studies into brake lining formulation and making linings with other than chrysotile asbestos. We could do this with almost no time delay. The divisions, Ford Motor Company, Lincoln Mercury Division, et cetera, if they wanted to look for a brake lining without asbestos they would have to go to a brake supplier who in turn would go to their lining suppliers who would then try to make materials without asbestos. So there could be some time delay. When was it the scientific research staff was looking at finding a substitute for asbestos in the second phase? We were looking for substitutes somewhere in the PATRICIA MURRAY & ASSOCIATES BRIGHTON (810) 229-8238 ANN ARBOR (313) 995-9545 1 2 Q. 3 4 A. 5 6 Q. 7 8 A. 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 Q. 17 A. 18 19 Q. 20 A. 21 22 Q. 23 A. 24 25 13 ARNOLD ANDERSON early '70s. Why were you looking for substitutes in the early '70s? Basically to see if there were safe and effective substitutes available. Why did you want safe and effective substitutes for asbestos? There had been some words issued, I think the first came from a Dr. Thompson from South Africa suggesting brake lining wear debris could be a problem. There were issues that came up later somewhat secondary to the studies from Mt. Sinai on the shipyard workers suggesting potential risk from all forms of asbestos. When was the South African study done? That preceded the work by Lynch, so it must have been about 1965 or '66. How did you become aware of that study? There was a reference, I believe, in Jeremiah Lynch's study. Who is Jeremiah Lynch? Jeremiah Lynch is from the U.S. Public Health Service who performed the study of brake lining fiber emissions in, I think, '68 or thereabouts. PATRICIA MURRAY & ASSOCIATES BRIGHTON (810) 229-8238 ANN ARBOR (313) 995-9545 14 ARNOLD ANDERSON 1 Q. And you read that study when it came out? 2 A. Oh, yes. 3 Q. Why? 4 A. I read virtually everything that had to do with 5 brakes that I could find. 6 Q. Did you share that information contained in that 7 study with anyone else at Ford Motor Company? 8 A. Yes. 9 MR. KRAUSE: The Lynch study? 10 MR. COOK: Yes, the Lynch study. 11 BY MR. COOK: 12 Q. Who did you share it with? 13 A. The information was on thetechnical information 14 accession list. In otherwords, the technical 15 library had it published as a list so that 16 publication list of documents went to all the 17 divisions within Ford Motor Company. 18 Q. Was that the first time you became aware there may 19 be some hazard associated with asbestos use? 20 A. Well, you say asbestos. That's a couple families of 21 minerals. That's a generic term and in the 22 23 24 Q. technical community we prefer to use technical terms. So it's a difficult question to answer. With any of the families of asbestos as you might 25 want to define them, when was the first time you PATRICIA MURRAY & ASSOCIATES BRIGHTON (810) 229-8238 ANN ARBOR (313) 995-9545 1 2 3 A. 4 5 Q. 6 A. 7 Q. 8 A. 9 Q. 10 A. 11 12 13 14 Q. 15 A. 16 17 18 19 20 Q. 21 22 23 24 A. 25 Q. 15 ARNOLD ANDERSON became aware there be might be any problem with any of the asbestos families? The amphibole family in the '65 timeframe, I believe. Was that from Dr.Selikoff's Among others, yes. study? Did you ever work with Dr. Selikoff? Yes, I did. When was that? He was invited to Ford Motor Company. We had meetings at Ford Motor Company and at Mt. Sinai and for a time period they did some contract work for Ford Motor Company. What years would that have been? First meeting, I think, was 1970and itcontinued for a few years. I remember we had communications in '76, is the last I specifically remember but there could have been others with other portions of the company. Prior to 1965 -- I think that's when you said you first became aware of the amphibole potential hazard -- did you have any knowledge that asbestos in any form might be harmful to the human body I don't believe so, no. Let me get a little bit about yourbackground and PATRICIA MURRAY & ASSOCIATES BRIGHTON (810) 229-8238 ANN ARBOR (313) 995-9545 1 2 A. 3 Q. 4 5 A. 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 Q. 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 16 ARNOLD ANDERSON training, sir. You're a scientist, is that correct? Technically, I'm an engineer. What is your background from an educational standpoint to be an engineer? Well, I started off as physics and math major at Reed College in Portland and then I transferred to engineering and a brief stint at Portland University and then to Oregon State University as it's called now. I got a Bachelor's degree in mechanical engineering with automotive options. That was in '56. Then '56, '57 I was with Chrysler at the Chrysler Institute. I did graduate studies with University of Michigan on a part-time basis and I've taken a number of courses at quite a few locations in material science since then. If I looked at the Ford light truck line, as I understand it, there was a small utility vehicle that was produced in the late '60s and the early '70s. Ford also had the F-Series trucks during that time period and then, of course, right around 1980, there were the large Broncos and then 83-1/2 they introduced the Ford Bronco II. Then, of course, the Explorer, I think, in '90. When was asbestos -- when were brakes not PATRICIA MURRAY & ASSOCIATES BRIGHTON (810) 229-8238 ANN ARBOR (313) 995-9545 1 2 A. 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 Q. 24 25 A. 17 ARNOLD ANDERSON containing asbestos put in those lines? The first I recall -- well, in the front brakes, removal of asbestos was relatively straightforward. There was a transition to semi-metallic or resin-bonded metallic brake linings, which initially contained asbestos backing layers so there was an asbestos -containing layer behind the friction material. So from a working surface standpoint it was a non-asbestos lining but from a total content there was some asbestos which if you totally wore the lining out, it could be released and could be part of the friction system. Those started to be used in the late '70s, I believe. The first drum brake lining without asbestos that Ford used, I believe, was from Abex and that I think came into usage late '81, something like that for the '82 model year is what I recall. That was suitable for the smaller duoservo drum brakes but had some performance problems on the duoservo drum brakes used on the big pickups and vans. So in the early '80s the Abex product would be used on the smaller Ranger and Bronco II? I believe so, yes, on the 9 -inch brake. PATRICIA MURRAY & ASSOCIATES BRIGHTON (810) 229-8238 ANN ARBOR (313) 995-9545 1 Q. 2 3 A. 4 5 6 Q. 7 8 A. 9 10 Q. 11 A. 12 Q. 13 14 15 A. 16 Q. 17 18 A. 19 Q. 20 A. 21 Q. 22 A. 23 24 25 18 ARNOLD ANDERSON Was Abex the only manufacturer that was producing for drum brakes a non-asbestos substitute? There are other companies that made materials but it becomes a question of finding the material that meets the performance standards. Abex was the only one to meet the performance standards? Initially, yes, as far as making a production material. Then did the others follow suit? Yes. Abex was making this material that would meet production standards, non-asbestos material, in the early '80s, 1982, '83, that timeframe? Yes, I believe that's correct. They were used on the small pickups and utility vehicles? Yes. How about cars? That came into use on some of the cars as well, yes. Can you give me the names of some of the cars? Actual introduction dates I don't recall off the top of my head. I'm sure that information is readily available. But the vehicles that used the same size brake would be the Mustang, particularly PATRICIA MURRAY & ASSOCIATES BRIGHTON (810) 229-8238 ANN ARBOR (313) 995-9545 1 2 3 4 5 Q. 6 7 8 9 A. 10 11 12 Q. 13 14 A. 15 16 17 18 19 Q. 20 21 A. 22 Q. 23 24 A. 25 19 ___________ ARNOLD ANDERSON____________________________ the smaller Mustang, the rear of the Thunderbird, the rear of the Escort. There's a number of the small vehicles that were able to use that same friction material or one very similar to it. Did you continue to -- you being Ford Motor Company -- continue to buy asbestos-containing brakes from Abex once they started coming out with the non-asbestos material? I believe we used Abex asbestos-containing brakes up until -- I think 1987, '87 or '89 I think was the last they made the asbestos-containing linings. Where were you getting the asbestos brakes from after '87? There was a disc brake lining from Friction Division Products, FDP, it was called, That was used in several vehicle lines. Bendix made some asbestos-containing segments, drum brake linings which were used on the big pickup trucks and vans. By big pickup trucks and vans, you're talking about Ford F-150 and larger? 250 and larger. The vans, we're talking about the Aerostar and Econoline? No. We're talking the 250 and 350 vans, basically the equivalent of the pickup truck but with a closed PATRICIA MURRAY & ASSOCIATES BRIGHTON (810) 229-8238 ANN ARBOR (313) 995-9545 1 2 Q. 3 4 A. 5 6 Q. 7 8 9 A. 10 11 12 Q. 13 14 15 A. 16 Q. 17 18 A. 19 20 21 22 Q. 23 A. 24 25 20 ARNOLD ANDERSON body, using the Large brake, 13-1/8-inch drum brake. So if there was a 250 or larger pickup or van, those brake linings were supplied by Bendix? I believe Bendix was the supplier of the brake linings for those, yes. Is that how it worked at Ford Motor Company, different suppliers would supply brakes for different lines of vehicles? Right. The materials have to be certified for use in a particular vehicle so a specific vehicle would use a particular brake lining. Let me go back then and you're going to stretch my memory a little bit but back into the '70s, was the Ford Maverickbeingmanufactured in the'70s? I believe so. Who would have made the brake lining for the Ford Maverick? You're stretching my memory also. I think the front brake on the Maverick was FDP-1353 and the rears, I think that was a Bendix primary and secondary. But I would have to check the records on that. Who is FDP? Friction DivisionProducts. The original company was Thiacol and the Friction Division was separated from that and it was then called Friction Division PATRICIA MURRAY & ASSOCIATES BRIGHTON (810) 229-8238 ANN ARBOR (313) 995-9545 1 2 Q. 3 4 5 A. 6 7 8 9 10 11 Q. 12 13 A. 14 15 16 17 Q. 18 19 A. 20 21 22 23 24 Q. 25 A. 21 ___________ ARNOLD ANDERSON____________________________ Products and they shortened it to FDP. Back in the '70s and '60s if you can go back that far, do you remember any other specific application of FDP brakes in Ford Motor Company products? FDP for Ford Motor Company supplied only disc brake linings, which at various times covered almost the full line of vehicles so they supplied linings for the smaller vehicles. I don't know think that they supplied for the trucks but for passenger cars they supplied Ford, Lincoln and Mercury Divisions. So they would have supplied the disc brake linings on the Pinto? I believe the Pinto -- let's see. The Pinto had for some of the time it had a Bendix lining I know of. Pinto was around for a long enough time there were several linings used. Can you give me a timeframe when we could be sure it was an FDP as opposed to Bendix? There you're asking for a little more from my memory than I would be comfortable with. But that should be a matter of record. The information is published each year as far as car models and what linings are used. Where is it published? For U.S.-manufactured vehicles there's a PATRICIA MURRAY & ASSOCIATES BRIGHTON (810) 229-8238 ANN ARBOR (313) 995-9545 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 Q. 8 9 10 A. 11 12 13 Q. 14 15 A. 16 17 18 19 Q. 20 A. 21 22 Q. 23 24 A. 25 Q. 22 ARNOLD ANDERSON manufacturers group, the data sheets I know are in the Detroit Public Library. I've looked them up on a number of occasions. Right now, I don't remember the name of the group. My memory is such I can go to a file cabinet and find something but I don't necessarily know the name of it. Let me talk about some other original equipment manufacturers that were vendors to Ford. Did you buy brake linings from Worldbestos? I think they supplied some materials for light truck. I don't remember Worldbestos ever supplying anything for passenger cars. In what timeframe would Worldbestos have supplied it for light truck? I don't believe they ever amounted to much of a supplier. I remember looking at running some tests on some of their materials but it was some time back. Can you give me a rough timeframe, '70s, '60s? Late '60s, early '70s. I'm pretty sure I ran some tests on the Worldbestos materials. Those would have been tests to see if they met your specifications? Performance standards, yes. Can you remember -- the only light trucks they had PATRICIA MURRAY & ASSOCIATES BRIGHTON (810) 229-8238 ANN ARBOR (313) 995-9545 1 2 3 4 A. 5 6 Q. 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 A. 15 16 17 18 19 20 Q. 21 22 A. 23 24 25 Q. 23 ___________ ARNOLD ANDERSON___________________________ at that point in time, I think, and correct me if I'm wrong, would be the F-Series trucks and the small original Bronco and the Econoline vans? Probably that would be right. Again, you probably have looked at the records more recently than I. Do not take what I'm saying as being right. I'm doing this by memory, not by looking at the records. I haven't seen those records. To be fair with you I want you to know that. Do you recall in what context you were testing those Worldbestos brakes, whether it was with the Econoline, the Ford F-series or the small Bronco? At the time when I did the tests the tests were done with a specific brake, not for a specific vehicle. Initially the lining is tested and the specific brake for the performance in that brake. Then knowing that performance you can decide which vehicle it may be appropriate for. Do you know what vehicle that was approved for use on? No, I don't. I'm pretty sure the testing we did was op an 11-inch drum brake so that it would have been for the larger of the light trucks. Again, the 250 series? PATRICIA MURRAY & ASSOCIATES BRIGHTON (810) 229-8238 ANN ARBOR (313) 995-9545 1 A. 2 3 Q. 4 5 A. 6 7 Q. 8 9 A. 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 Q. 22 A. 23 24 25 Q. 24 ARNOLD ANDERSON No. It could have been a 150 but it would have been more than an Econoline. You think I can find out that information by looking in the Detroit Public Library? I know I would be able to fine it. I would hope you would. Can you give me some more hints as to where I should look? Right now I would have to check some of my files to see what the names were on the sources. At one time, Automotive Industries would put out an annual index which included all the vehicles and raw materials and brake suppliers and sizes and so on and I believe some of those including lining formulations. They stopped doing that about the timeframe you're talking about and then after that, there was some formal and informal publication of whose linings were used on what vehicle. I'm not sure right now what my references would have on that. What would you have to do to determine that? Probably go home and open a couple file cabinets and look through. That's the reason why I have file cabinets because I don't have a perfect memory. Subject to your lawyer's agreeing to this and they PATRICIA MURRAY & ASSOCIATES BRIGHTON (810) 229-8238 ANN ARBOR (313) 995-9545 25 ARNOLD ANDERSON 1 may or may not, again, but we're going to request 2 that you do that and we're going to leave a blank in 3 the deposition so you can, assuming your lawyers 4 agree, fill in as to what sources we might go to 5 determine for specific vehicle line at Ford Motor 6 Company who might have made the brakes in a 7 particular year. 8 A. All right. 9 Q. It's my understanding you think that information is 10 available; you just can't remember exactly where to 11 find it as we sit here today? 12 A. That's correct. 13 14 (DepositionExhibit No. 2 was marked.) 15 16 BY MR. COOK: 17 Q. I would like to hand to you what is marked as 18 Exhibit 2 and ask if you can identify that for me, 19 please. 20 A. It's A Technical ServiceBulletin No. 99 from 21 22 23 24 Q. October of 1975 from Ford Parts and Service Division. Seems to be three pages from something which is quite obviously much bigger. All right, sir. Can you tell us what a Technical 25 Service Bulletin is? PATRICIA MURRAY & ASSOCIATES BRIGHTON (810) 229-8238 ANN ARBOR (313) 995-9545 1 A. 2 3 4 q. 5 6 7 A. 8 Q. 9 A. 10 Q. 11 A. 12 Q. 13 A. 14 Q. 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 ARNOLD ANDERSON Technical information sheets that are put out periodically by the Parts and Service Division of Ford Motor Company. Does Exhibit 2, at least those pages that are copied, appear to be a true and correct copy of an original Ford document? Certainly appears to be, yes. Now, if you turn to the second page, under Chassis? Yes. Article 1269? Yes. It hasBrake Asbestos Fiber DustRemoval? Yes. Is thatthe first time that you're aware this October 24, 1975 Technical Service Bulletin at Ford told the people that were working on Ford vehicles about the dangers of asbestos? MR. KRAUSE: I think without having other Technical Service Bulletins in front of him it's kind of unfair to ask this witness if this is the first. This is a document authored 23 years ago. MR. COOK: The reason I ask it is because in reading some other depositions it's my understanding this is the first and if it's not - MR. KRAUSE: I just don't know if he's in a PATRICIA MURRAY & ASSOCIATES BRIGHTON (810) 229-8238 ANN ARBOR (313) 995-9545 27 ARNOLD ANDERSON 1 position to say yes or no. 2 THE WITNESS: As far as I'm aware, this 3 came about after a meeting with Irving Selikoff and 4 some government and industry people talking or 5 requesting some additional studies on brakes. 6 So I would expect it would be quite 7 unlikely there would be a similar publication before 8 '75. I'm not sure but I think it was somewhere 9 around April or May of '75 when Selikoff had that 10 meeting and I believe that was the basis, why this 11 article was written. 12 BY MR. COOK: 13 Q. Would you read the warning? 14 A. You mean the caution? 15 Q. Is it a warning or caution? 16 A. 17 It says caution. "Dust and dirt conditions present on wheel brake assemblies and rotors and drums may 18 contain asbestos fibers that can represent a 19 potential health hazard when made airborne by 20 cleaning with compressed air." 21 Q. Do you know what that means as we sit here today? 22 A. I believe so. 23 Q. What do you think that means? 24 A. 25 That basically common sense rewording of that is, it would be prudent not to blow off brakes with PATRICIA MURRAY & ASSOCIATES BRIGHTON (810) 229-8238 ANN ARBOR (313) 995-9545 1 2 Q. 3 A. 4 Q. 5 6 A. 7 8 9 10 11 Q. 12 13 A. 14 15 Q. 16 17 18 A. 19 Q. 20 A. 21 22 Q. 23 24 A. 25 Q. 28 ARNOLD ANDERSON compressed air. Why? Because of a potential health hazard. What is the health hazard of blowing off asbestos fibers with compressed air? That was not known at that time but it was considered a potential risk based on the presumption that chrysotile asbestos, the type used in brake linings, behaves the same as the amphibole types that were used in the shipyards. Did your studies in regard to asbestos deal with asbestosis? My studies dealt with fiber release. We didn't perform animal or people experiments. Let me restate the question. It was another poor question on my part. Do you know what asbestosis is? Certainly. How do you know that? I've read several hundred articles and medical literature on the subject. Do you know of any article that indicates chrysotile is not a causative agentin asbestosis? Not in that form. Is asbestosis potentially a disabling disease? PATRICIA MURRAY & ASSOCIATES BRIGHTON (810) 229-8238 ANN ARBOR (313) 995-9545 1 A. 2 Q. 3 A. 4 5 6 Q. 7 8 9 A. 10 11 Q. 12 A. 13 Q. 14 15 A. 16 17 18 Q. 19 A. 20 21 Q. 22 A. 23 24 25 29 ARNOLD ANDERSON Certainly. Is it potentially a fatal disease? There's some argument on that but a reasonable argument can be made that it would be causative as far as a person's premature death. So is it true one health hazard of asbestos and blowing off asbestos as stated in this caution is the fact someone may contract asbestosis? That would not be logical from this nor from the research that's been done. When did you retire, sir? 1987. Have you continued to keeptrack of asbestos articles as you did when you were working at Ford? Not as I did, but I still follow the literature. I can use the computer now which sometimes is more efficient that going to libraries. Why do you follow the literature? I'm interested, I'm still writing, still presenting papers. Who do you present papers to? One I'll be presenting next week is Southern Illinois University at a break colloquium. One coming up in September is for the Society of Automotive Engineers break meeting. PATRICIA MURRAY & ASSOCIATES BRIGHTON (810) 229-8238 ANN ARBOR (313) 995-9545 1 Q. 2 30 ARNOLD ANDERSON What is your position in regard to whether or not auto mechanics should clean rotors and drums with 3 compressed air? 4 A. I think it would be prudent for them not to use 5 compressed air. 6 Q. And why is that? 7 A. It's a lot cleaner. 8 Q. As you sit here today do you tell these seminars and 9 other people to whom you make speeches that there is 10 a health hazard in regard to asbestos as opposed to 11 a potential health hazard? 12 A. All the studies I've seen indicate that brake 13 mechanics are not an at-risk population with regard 14 to asbestos fibers but that's beside the point. A 15 person still should use common sense in working with 16 any particulate matter. 17 MR. COOK: I'm going to object. It's 18 nonresponsive. I may have asked a bad question, 19 though. Let me see if I can restate the question. 20 BY MR. COOK: 21 Q. Do you take the position at these seminars that 22 brake mechanics are not at risk from 23 asbestos-related diseases? 24 MR. KRAUSE: That assumes the subject of 25 his talks has to do with health hazards. PATRICIA MURRAY & ASSOCIATES BRIGHTON (810) 229-8238 ANN ARBOR (313) 995-9545 31 ARNOLD ANDERSON 1 THE WITNESS: At the various presentations 2 I've made with regard to brakes, I point out the 3 mechanisms involved in the friction and wear 4 process, what sort of fibers may be released from a 5 theoretical standpoint and a practical standpoint 6 and what the consequences may be of that. 7 I don't get into the business of telling 8 people how to service brakes because at the meetings 9 where I'm making my presentations it is not brake 10 mechanics. 11 BY MR. COOK: 12 Q. Do you think that asbestos should have been 13 eliminated from a health standpoint from brakes? 14 A. No. 15 Q. Do you think asbestosshould have been eliminated 16 from a performance standpoint from brakes? 17 A. In some applications. 18 Q. If you were the one that got todecide the rules in 19 this country, what would your rules be about 20 asbestos in brakes? 21 A. I sent a rather long letter to the people at the 22 U.S. government with regard to the asbestos ban 23 pointing out my position, what I believed would be a 24 proper approach, and that would be to pay attention 25 to the actual risks from the fiber standpoint, the PATRICIA MURRAY & ASSOCIATES BRIGHTON (810) 229-8238 ANN ARBOR (313) 995-9545 1 2 3 4 5 6 Q. 7 A. 8 Q. 9 10 A. 11 12 13 Q. 14 A. 15 16 17 18 19 20 Q. 21 22 23 A. 24 25 32 ARNOLD ANDERSON risks from a vehicle braking standpoint, and the risks of substitutes from both fiber standpoint and the safety standpoint. That if you don't look at the big picture you can't make a logical decision. Did you disagree with Dr. Selikoff? On some things. I agreed with him on others. What did Dr. Selikoff think about whether asbestos should remain in brakes? At our first meeting he thought the probability was quite low that brake asbestos was the source of any problem. In subsequent meetings did he change that opinion? Whether he changed the opinion or not, I don't know. What he did say in 1975 was that there's need for more studies. But Dr. Selikoff was an interesting person as far as what he would say when he was on the soap box. By that, do you mean he would say something different on the soap box than what he would say personally to you? Yes. (Deposition Exhibit No. 3 was marked.) PATRICIA MURRAY & ASSOCIATES BRIGHTON (810) 229-8238 ANN ARBOR (313) 995-9545 33 ARNOLD ANDERSON 1 BY MR. COOK: 2 Q. Take look if you will at what has been marked as 3 Exhibit 3 and see if you can identify that. 4 A. It's a document I've seen. It's been a while. 5 't It seems like something was eliminated. 6 There's a sentence on the first page that doesn't 7 make sense. 8 Q. You mean portions of this document are missing? 9 A. It says general plant ventilation is the only 10 engineered control used for these operations period 11 and then on the next line there's nothing for about 12 three-quarters of the line that says, but 13 respirators are not worn during brake rebuilding 14 or pipe covering. 15 I don't understand that. Then there's an 16 empty space before the next section occurs. 17 MR. COOK: To the extent this document is 18 incomplete, we would request a true and correct copy 19 of the original document. 20 MR. GARZA: What is the document? 21 MR. COOK: Here's a copy of it here. 22 MR. GARZA: This is a May 29, 1973 memo to 23 J.A. Keller, Personnel Services Supervisor. 24 MR. COOK: It appears to me that portions 25 of that document have been redacted and I would like PATRICIA MURRAY & ASSOCIATES BRIGHTON (810) 229-8238 ANN ARBOR (313) 995-9545 34 ARNOLD ANDERSON 1 to ask the witness about the complete document. 2 MR. GARZA: When was this document 3 produced? 4 MR. COOK: I think in the Kents case. 5 MR. GARZA: We will be happy to look for 6 it. I don't know if we have the original here. 7 MR. COOK: If we can have that; if not, we 8 will reserve the rights to re-examine this witness 9 on the complete document. 10 MR. GARZA: Have you seen that in the 11 documents produced in this case or in the documents 12 you were allowed to review today? 13 MR. COOK: There's are no Bates numbers on 14 this document and there's ten or twelve boxes in 15 there or something like that. It's hard for me to 16 know. 17 BY MR. COOK: 18 Q. Understanding that it appears there's some portion 19 of this document missing, can you identify this 20 document? 21 A. I've seen this document yes, I recall that. 22 Q. What is this document? 23 A. It's a document sent by Henry Lick, who is an 24 industrial hygienist, to I believe his name was Jack 25 Keller who was the supervisor at the General PATRICIA MURRAY & ASSOCIATES BRIGHTON (810) 229-8238 ANN ARBOR (313) 995-9545 1 2 Q. 3 A. 4 5 Q. 6 7 8 9 A. 10 11 Q. 12 A. 13 Q. 14 15 16 A. 17 Q. 18 19 20 A. 21 22 23 24 25 35 ARNOLD ANDERSON Services Division which covered this basic area. Who is Mr. Harris, Dr. Harris? At the time I believe he was the medical officer at the Engineering Center. Mr. Anderson, you presented papers and made speeches regarding asbestos in brakes. I want to know what your background is from a medical standpoint as to whether or not asbestos can cause harmful diseases? My background is not in medicine, as I'm sure you are well aware. Have you ever taken any medical courses? Not specifically, no. Do you feel uncomfortable in taking the position that asbestos should not be taken out of brakes, not having any medical background in that regard? No, not at all. Why is it that you feel as an engineer that your opinions on the medical issues of asbestos should be taken into account? The issue is one of engineering up until the fiber has gotten into the lung and I think an engineer is far more qualified in doing research with regard to fibers, fiber emissions and respirability than a medical doctor. Once the fiber reaches the lung and what PATRICIA MURRAY & ASSOCIATES BRIGHTON (810) 229-8238 ANN ARBOR (313) 995-9545 1 2 3 4 5 6 Q. 7 A. 8 Q. 9 10 11 12 A. 13 Q. 14 A. 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 Q. 25 36 ARNOLD ANDERSON happens to it after that, the etiology is certainly more in the field of medicine. But certainly the engineering aspects I think are best done by engineers and medical aspects best done by medical people. Don't they overlap to some extent? Certainly. One area of overlapping is whether or not the amount of fibers that the engineers or exposing individuals to through whatever programs they have as to whether or not that causes a harmful effect on the body. You've leaving a big empty space in there, sir. What is the big, empty space that I'm leaving out? The thing is, how much fiber is released from a brake is totally different than how much fiber makes it into the lung. The body has its defense mechanisms as far as reducing the amount of fiber that can make it into the lungs. There's also the question of what is the residence time of the fiber from the brake which establishes whether or not there's going to be fibers in the breathing zone of the person. Those are engineering things. How the fiber gets into the lung is not an engineering thing, though, is it? PATRICIA MURRAY & ASSOCIATES BRIGHTON (810) 229-8238 ANN ARBOR (313) 995-9545 1 A. 2 3 4 Q. 5 6 A. 7 Q. 8 A. 9 Q. 10 A. 11 Q. 12 A. 13 14 15 Q. 16 17 A. 18 19 Q. 20 21 22 A. 23 Q. 24 A. 25 Yes. ARNOLD ANDERSON It is an engineering thing. 37 Medical people have come to our lab as far as some of the fluid dynamic aspects of things. Are you an expert as to the fluid dynamics of the airways? Not of the airways, no. Isn't that how asbestos gets into the lungs? Yes. That's a medical decision? It could be. Do you think it's anengineeringdecision, too? I don't consider it a decision. It's a matter of doing some research with regard to what happens with regard to fibers in an airstream. Has Ford Motor Companysuccessfully modeled the human airway in regard to fiber transfer? That's an ill -- the question is inappropriate. As far as fiber transfer? Well, somehow the fiber has to get from the outside air, goes in either the nostrils or the mouth, right? That's correct. And then down, what, the trachea? The thing is there's a turbinator bone which causes some spin and there's passageways which contain PATRICIA MURRAY & ASSOCIATES BRIGHTON (810) 229-8238 ANN ARBOR (313) 995-9545 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 Q. 13 14 15 16 A. 17 Q. 18 A. 19 Q. 20 A. 21 22 Q. 23 A. 24 25 38 ARNOLD ANDERSON mucous which will attract some materials and then you have your bronchial tree with mother and daughter passages and there's a potential of impact of fiber at those junctures and then there's the potential -- if you have a straight fiber of appropriate dimensions to make it all the way to the air sac. But the thing is that could be handled very easily by either an engineer or doctor, both of which would have about the same sort of academic training as far as that aspect. So you believe an engineer can -- let me ask the question. You've just described the passage, the potential passage of an asbestos fiber into the lungs, is that right? Roughly, yes. Has Ford modeled that in any scientific way? Not that I've know of. How did you come about this knowledge? We did some work with Dr. Andrew Reeves at Wayne State University on some of this. Who is Dr. Nicholson? He's a physicist that worked -- if you're talking about Bill Nicholson, a physicist that worked with Irving Selikoff. PATRICIA MURRAY & ASSOCIATES BRIGHTON (810) 229-8238 ANN ARBOR (313) 995-9545 1 Q. 2 3 4 5 6 7 A. 8 9 10 Q. 11 12 13 14 15 A. 16 17 18 Q. 19 20 A. 21 Q. 22 A. 23 Q. 24 A. 25 39 ARNOLD ANDERSON Now, I want to ask you how an engineer can determine whether or not a particular asbestos fiber will become lodged in this passage through the airway, through the mouth and through the daughter and sister passages you've just talked about. How would an engineer do this? The first thing you have to do is know the particle size and size distribution of the materials entering the nose or mouth. You said a minute ago you could do this as an engineer as well as a doctor. My question is: How would you know how the human body will react that particular piece or portion of asbestos fiber as it passes through there? The human body isn't involved in reaction until the fiber or particle touches the human body. It's free flowing within the airway initially. How do you know when the fiber touches the human body? That's done by aerodynamic studies. Have you done such aerodynamic studies? Not lately. Well, have you ever done such aerodynamic studies? I had some of my people look at that sometime ago, yes. PATRICIA MURRAY & ASSOCIATES BRIGHTON (810) 229-8238 ANN ARBOR (313) 995-9545 1 Q. 2 3 A. 4 5 Q. 6 7 8 9 A. 10 11 12 13 14 Q. 15 16 A. 17 Q. 18 A. 19 Q. 20 A. 21 22 23 24 25 40 ARNOLD ANDERSON When did you decide that the asbestos fiber first touched the human body? That's a question that by itself wouldn't be able to be answered. If you can't answer that question how do you know as to when it touches the human body, how can you possibly answer the question as to what reaction it would have with the human body? Well, if you talk about reaction to the human body, there I have done a little bit of work. With regard to what happens to the chrysotile fiber in contact with the surface fluids of the human body, that has been done. You as an engineer have been doing this work as opposed to a medical doctor doing this work? Yes. Is chrysotile asbestosharmful to thehuman body? It can be. How? In sufficient quantities -- if a personaccording to the data I've seen, if a person inhales something in excess of ten or so fiber per cc over an extended time period, there's a potential for asbestosis and lung cancer. PATRICIA MURRAY & ASSOCIATES BRIGHTON (810) 229-8238 ANN ARBOR (313) 995-9545 41 ARNOLD ANDERSON 1 (Deposition Exhibit No. 4 was marked.) 2 3 BY MR. COOK: 4 Q. Let me hand you what's been marked as Plaintiff's 5 Exhibit 4. 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. Can you identify that for me, sir? 8 A. Yes. It's a document called Carcinogens Task Force 9 Report to Engineering & Research and M&S 10 Subcommittees. 11 Q. What does that mean? 12 MR. KRAUSE: What does what mean? 13 MR. COOK: What he just said. 14 THE WITNESS: It was a task force report as 15 a result of -- I think OSHA required, it should be 16 in here. There's a requirement for all 17 manufacturers to keep records on virtually 18 everything that may have toxic effects. 19 BY MR. COOK: 20 Q. Who is this J.W. Durstine? 21 A . I d o n 't know h i m . 22 Q. Who are these people that are copied -- D. Baker - 23 A. Well, Block was the corporate medical officer, 24 Douma, Fadow, Frey, Gratch -- well, Gratch was my 25 boss. A number of these people are involved in PATRICIA HURRAY & ASSOCIATES BRIGHTON (810) 229-8238 ANN ARBOR (313) 995-9545 1 2 3 Q. 4 A. 5 6 7 Q. 8 9 A. 10 Q. 11 12 A. 13 14 15 16 17 Q. 18 19 20 A. 21 22 23 24 25 42 ARNOLD ANDERSON various manufacturing, engineering activities through the company. Is Dr. Block a vice-president of Ford Motor Company? I don't remember what his title was. He was the medical officer. I don't believe that was a vice-presidential position. Was it the highest medical position at Ford Motor Company? Yes. Does this document appear to be an accurate reproduction of an original Ford document? Well, it's been a long time since I've seen this document but this one has all the earmarks of being the correct and total -- I would have to spend sometime looking it on over to make a positive statement but it definitely looks - Take whatever time you need because what I need to do is find out if this appears to be a true and correct copy of an original Ford document. Let me take a moment here then. THE TECHNICIAN: Off the record at 11:40 a.m. (A brief recess was taken.) PATRICIA MURRAY & ASSOCIATES BRIGHTON (810) 229-8238 ANN ARBOR (313) 995-9545 43 ARNOLD ANDERSON 1 THE TECHNICIAN: Back on the record at 2 11:48. 3 BY MR. COOK: 4 Q. Mr. Anderson, do you have any training in 5 epidemiology? 6 A. No. 7 Q. Does Exhibit 4 appear to be a true and correct copy 8 of an original Ford document? 9 A. No. 10 Q. In what regard is it not a true and correct copy? 11 A. There's five or six duplicate pages in it. At least 12 six pages, a couple are out of location. 13 Q. 14 All right, sir. Do those pages, though, appear to be true and correct copies of original Ford 15 documents? 16 A. Yes. It could bereassembled, taking out the 17 duplicate and making what appears to be the 18 original document. 19 Q. Take alook at page 5. 20 21 A. 22 23 24 Would you read the first sentence? "During the past several years positive evidence has established the link between the inhalation of asbestos -containing dust and chronic respiratory disease (asbestosis) as well as several forms of 25 cancer." PATRICIA MURRAY & ASSOCIATES BRIGHTON (810) 229-8238 ANN ARBOR (313) 995-9545 44 ARNOLD ANDERSON 1 Q. Do you agree that statement? 2 A. That statement is correct. 3 Q. What about the next sentence? Would you read that, 4 please? 5 A. "These include lung cancer, mesothelioma, cancer of 6 the membranes lining the chest and abdominal 7 cavities and gastrointestinal cancer." 8 Q. Is that statement correct? 9 A. At the time that was believed -- the 10 gastrointestinal cancer was one proposed by Selikoff 11 and his group and has not been accepted very 12 broadly. 13 MR. COOK: Object to the response as being 14 nonresponsive. 15 BY MR. COOK: 16 Q. Other than the part concerning gastrointestinal 17 cancer do you believe the rest of that statement is 18 correct? 19 A. Since they are using asbestos in the generic sense, 20 that would be a correct statement, yes. 21 Q. Could you read the next sentence, please? 22 A. "Asbestos is found in a variety of automotive 23 components and thus many occupational exposures are 24 possible." 25 Q. Is that correct? PATRICIA MURRAY & ASSOCIATES BRIGHTON (810) 229-8238 ANN ARBOR (313) 995-9545 1 A. 2 Q. 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 45 ARNOLD ANDERSON Yes. Do you feel that it is important for an engineer who is designing a product to warn potential users of that product of any hazards related to that product? MR. KRAUSE: I think you're getting beyond this witness's area of expertise. This witness is not an expert in the warnings area, he's qualified as what he's indicated are his areas of expertise. MR. COOK: Are you going answer the question? THE WITNESS: repeat the question? At this stage, could you MR. COOK: reporter read it. I'm going to have the court 16 (The reporter read the last question.) 17 18 THE WITNESS: The designer -- that is not 19 the role of the designer to warn the end user. It's 20 the role of the designer to do the most effective 21 design he can and relay any information he may have 22 about potential hazards on to other people whose job 23 it is to provide the warnings. 24 BY MR. COOK: 25 Q. Whose job is it to provide the warnings? PATRICIA MURRAY & ASSOCIATES BRIGHTON (810) 229-8238 ANN ARBOR (313) 995-9545 1 A. 2 3 4 Q. 5 A. 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 Q. 14 15 16 17 18 19 A. 20 Q. 21 A. 22 Q. 23 24 25 46 ARNOLD ANDERSON Right now, I would not know. But that would certainly not be the job directly for a designer. It would be downstream substantially. What do you mean by downstream substantially? The person designing something is doing his work way before production has even started so there's quite a bit of time that can pass and materials may change and a number of things may change before production but the thing is a designer has an obligation to relay information with regard to potential risks and hazards in his work to the people that he works with. All right. Is one of the principles you are taught in your engineering courses that if it's possible to design out a hazard, possible and reasonable to design out a hazard, then you design a hazard out of a product but if it's not, then you warn about the hazard? That's a reasonable statement, yes. That's generally accepted in the engineering field? Generally accepted, yes. What you're telling me is that you pass on any potential hazard as a designer to other people that are more likely to be dealing directly with the general public or the user of the product? PATRICIA MURRAY & ASSOCIATES BRIGHTON (810) 229-8238 ANN ARBOR (313) 995-9545 1 A. 2 3 4 5 Q. 6 7 8 A. 9 10 11 12 13 14 Q. 15 16 17 A. 18 19 20 21 22 Q. 23 24 25 A. 47 ARNOLD ANDERSON Right. The designer from the design stage goes through quite a few further stages of evolution before it gets into production so that by the time something is in production materials may change. What information did the people that were designing the brakes pass on about the hazards if any about asbestos in those brakes? Ford only designed a portion of the brake system. Ford bought the complete brake assembly so Ford technically didn't even purchase the brake linings. They bought full brake assemblies from their raw material suppliers so that aspect would not be a direct portion for Ford Motor Company. So did they rely on the suppliers to provide information about hazards regarding the brake assemblies to potential consumers? That would be an area that I had no direct involvement with so I'm not sure how that would be done but certainly we would have expected the suppliers to relay information with regard to potential safety and health issues. Did the suppliers provide any information to Ford Motor Company about health risks in regard to asbestos? I have no knowledge of that. PATRICIA MURRAY & ASSOCIATES BRIGHTON (810) 229-8238 ANN ARBOR (313) 995-9545 1 2 3 A. 4 Q. 5 6 7 A. 8 9 q. 10 11 A. 12 13 Q. 14 15 16 17 A. 18 Q. 19 20 21 22 23 A. 24 25 Q. 48 ARNOLD ANDERSON Were you in a. position to have sssn that information had it been provided? Possibly, yes. Who would have been in a better position to see that information so they would know whether or not such information was provided than you? Well, the toxicologists, industrial hygiene people, I would presume would be the first to be informed. Then what about the people that actually worked with the product on the Ford assembly line? The plant Safety and Industrial Hygiene people are involved there also. As far as you know, in talking to any of them and doing your research did the suppliers ever provide you any information about the hazards of asbestos in brakes? I've not seen any, no. I want to ask you a couple questions about some more suppliers. One of them is Abex. Can you tell me some vehicles in the -vehicle lines in the 1960s and 1970s that would contain Abex brakes? '60s and '70s. In that timeframe I know heavy truck used Abex brake block, that I'm sure. Tell me what heavy truck is. I'm not sure I'm PATRICIA MURRAY & ASSOCIATES BRIGHTON (810) 229-8238 ANN ARBOR (313) 995-9545 1 2 A. 3 4 Q. 5 6 A. 7 8 9 Q. 10 11 A. 12 13 14 Q. 15 A. 16 17 18 Q. 19 20 21 A. 22 Q. 23 A. 24 25 49 ARNOLD ANDERSON familiar with heavy truck. The 18-wheelers you see on the road, those are heavy truck, the big guys. So in 1960 arid 1970 they were using Abex brake linings? Heavy trucks are basically built to order but the most common brakes and the most common linings included Abex. So unless there was a special order, it would be Abex? For some of the lines. There was Abex and Carlisle, I think were the primary suppliers of block for the heavy truck. Were there any lines that were just Abex? Could very well be. There was one material, brake lock 551-C, which is in very common usage and that would have been a fairly good size volume. Can you give me any specifics in the 1960 to 1970 timeframe of a vehicle that I could feel more likely than not was going to contain Abex brakes? Abex brake lining? Brake lining. Up to 1970 -- in the '60 to '70 timeframe, I don't know of any Abex lining used in passenger car. I'm not sure I can think -- I would have to go back PATRICIA MURRAY & ASSOCIATES BRIGHTON (810) 229-8238 ANN ARBOR (313) 995-9545 1 2 3 4 Q. 5 A. 6 7 8 Q. 9 10 A. 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 Q. 18 A. 19 20 21 22 Q. 23 A. 24 Q. 25 A. 50 ARNOLD ANDERSON through the records but I think at that time frame Abex was primarily a supplier for heavy truck for Ford Motor Company. Who is Carlisle? Carlisle is another supplier, primarily of heavy truck friction material and also called Motion Control Industries. Any particular vehicles that their product was used on? There again, primarily their heavy truck on the blocks, used on the air brakes. I think Carlisle made some heavy duty segment and there may have been some -- in that timeframe there may have been some large segments used on the light and medium trucks that were Carlisle. How about Wagner Electric? Wagner supplied a number of components. At that time I don't know that they were manufacturing brake linings. I think they were buying from others and marketing with their brand name. Were they marketing to Ford? Brake linings to Ford? Yes. For the OEM, I don't believe so. I don't recall PATRICIA MURRAY & ASSOCIATES BRIGHTON (810) 229-8238 ANN ARBOR (313) 995-9545 1 2 Q. 3 4 A. 5 Q. 6 7 A. 8 9 10 Q. 11 A. 12 Q. 13 A. 14 15 Q. 16 A. 17 Q. 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 51 ___________ ARNOLD ANDERSON____________________ _ _ them. Now, back to this document. Plaintiff's Exhibit 4, page 5, what is the date on that page? May 2, 1980. The next sentence after the words gastrointestinal cancer is what, sir? "Asbestos is found in a variety of automotive components and thus many occupational exposures are p o s s i b l e ." Is that statement true? That's correct, yes. What is the next sentence? "The most critical exposure occurs during brake and clutch repair." Is that statement true? It was probably believed to be true at that time. Do you believe that the non-asbestos-containing brakes used by Ford are inferior to the asbestos-containing brakes used by General Motors? MR. KRAUSE: I'm not so sure this witness knows what brakes General Motors us e s . Maybe he does. THE WITNESS: To make a blanket statement about inferior from one to another is not the sort of statement I would like to make. If you would PATRICIA MURRAY & ASSOCIATES BRIGHTON (810) 229-8238 ANN ARBOR (313) 995-9545 52 ARNOLD ANDERSON 1 indicate a specific area to address, there are 2 advantages and disadvantages to each formulation and 3 each basic type of material and you can say some 4 materials have advantages over others. If you 5 confine to one area as opposed to another you could 6 flip flop which is the better material. 7 BY MR. COOK: 8 Q. Are you familiar with GM brakes? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. How did you gain that familiarity? 11 A. Working on cars and being in the industry, you're 12 aware of pretty much everything. 13 Q. You want to know what your competitor is doing? 14 A. It's certainly is part of being in business, yes. 15 Q. Taurus is Ford's best selling car today? 16 A. I think it still is, yes. For a car, yes, not best 17 selling vehicle, best selling car, right. 18 Q. Ford F-150 is the best selling vehicle? 19 A. Best selling vehicle everywhere. 20 Q. Maybe that would be easier to do. Let's use the Ford 21 F-150 vehicle. It's the truck, large -- not the 22 largest truck but a large size truck, not the 23 smaller Ranger, right? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. Then the comparable truck would be what, the GMC PATRICIA MURRAY & ASSOCIATES BRIGHTON (810) 229-8238 ANN ARBOR (313) 995-9545 1 2 A. 3 Q. 4 A. 5 Q. 6 A. 7 Q. 8 9 10 A. 11 12 13 14 15 Q. 16 A. 17 18 19 20 Q. 21 22 h` 23 24 25 53 ARNOLD ANDERSON Sierra? GMC and Chevrolet both make pickup trucks, yes. Those are the CK pickup trucks? That's one of the types, yes. Thbse would be comparable to the Ford F-150 series? Yes. Now, looking at the brakes on those two vehicles advantages do the GM brakes have which contain asbestos over the brakes the Ford F-150 have? If you're comparing a GM brake with asbestos with the Ford which was non-asbestos, one of the big differences was in morning sickness. You want probably to have more information on that? I'm sure you're going to tell me. in the morning particularly after there has been some dew during the night which may not be commonplace in your area, but for a good portion of the United States you can have dew during the night. Believe me, we have plenty of humidity in our part of the world. In the morning that moisture, with brake linings containing a lot of graphite, can cause the friction to be abnormally low and this can cause a substantial loss of friction. This is referred to PATRICIA MURRAY & ASSOCIATES BRIGHTON (810) 229-8238 ANN ARBOR (313) 995-9545 1 2 3 Q. 4 5 A. 6 7 8 9 10 Q. 11 A. 12 13 Q. 14 15 A. 16 Q. 17 A. 18 19 20 Q. 21 22 A. 23 24 25 Q. 54 ARNOLD ANDERSON as morning sickness, either having abnormally low or abnormally high friction first thing in the morning. Does that mean graphite replaced asbestos in the Ford products? Well, when Ford went to the non-asbestos lining for disc brakes, they went to a semi-metallic material which used steel wool, sponge iron and graphite held together with a phenolic binder and that did provide a morning sickness issue. Is that an advantage or disadvantage for the GM CK? First thing in the morning, it's an advantage. Later in the day, it's gone. Do you know whether the GM CK trucks have asbestos-containing brakes? They went to non-asbestos, semi-mets themselves. When did they do that? I don't remember the exactly time. I believe they switched somewhere in the late '70s for the disc brakes. So everybody switched in the late '70s to the disc brakes? To semi-metallic disc brakes, yes, particularly for trucks. It's a particularly good application for trucks. I need to understand a little bit about the PATRICIA MURRAY & ASSOCIATES BRIGHTON (810) 229-8238 ANN ARBOR (313) 995-9545 1 2 A. 3 Q. 4 A. 5 Q. 6 A. 7 8 Q. 9 10 A. 11 12 13 Q. 14 A. 15 Q. 16 17 A. 18 Q. 19 A. 20 21 22 23 24 25 55 ___________ ARNOLD ANDERSON___________________________ terminology. Are there metallic brakes? There are, but they are extremely rare. And what would their usage be? As far as automotive? Yes. I would hope very minimal. They are not a safe material to use for automotive applications. Do you know anybody that's using metallic brakes in automotive applications? There's a few race car applications where they don't have concern about the first few stops in the morning. Then there's semi-metallic brakes? Yes. And are there then brakes that contain no metal at all? Yes, called NANMs, non-asbestos, non-metallic. What are the applications for NANMs? They are used for a number of -- if we want to get through this, there's about ten different categories of brake linings for different applications and unfortunately, right now they are more confusing than enlightening. For example, non-asbestos doesn't say what it has in it, it says what it doesn't have in it. PATRICIA MURRAY & ASSOCIATES BRIGHTON (810) 229-8238 ANN ARBOR (313) 995-9545 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 Q. 9 10 A. 11 Q. 12 A. 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 Q. 21 22 A. 23 24 25 56 ARNOLD ANDERSON So that some of the designations are somewhat confusing, like non-metallic. It says, again, what it doesn't have. But the evolution of friction materials with time and the fact people want to make secret what they have for raw materials tends to give rise to some rather poor description for the product. Are there any passenger cars that have these NANM-type brakes? Yes. Which ones would those be? Right now, the specific models, I don't have those at the top of my head. It used to be I had the list of each application for each lining for each vehicle in usage every year. I don't go through those anymore. There are some which are low mets, some which are high mets, there are some which are nonmetallic, there's still some semi-mets being used. If we see "organic" on the box, what does that tell us about it? Very little. The original term organic basically referred to an organic binder or resin which was used to hold together a classical brake lining which contained chrysotile asbestos. PATRICIA MURRAY & ASSOCIATES BRIGHTON (810) 229-8238 ANN ARBOR (313) 995-9545 1 2 3 4 5 Q. 6 A. 7 8 Q. 9 10 A. 11 12 Q. 13 A. 14 15 16 Q. 17 18 19 A. 20 21 22 23 24 25 57 ARNOLD ANDERSON Originally if you said organic brake lining, you were talking about the materials that were in common usage up through the '70s for the entire industry. What does it mean if you say it today? Not very much. Because it could be organic non-asbestos. It could be organic with asbestos. If you use the term organic what would you be communicating to the consumer? Basically that you have a resin binder and not much else. Are there any that don't have resin binders? Yes. But they are the rare breed. Those are the full metallics and those hopefully are not being sold to consumers. So basically for the average person's automobile or light truck or even heavy truck, they would all be organic? They all could be called organic. However, semi-metallic linings are commonly called semi-mets although occasionally are misrepresented as being metallic brake linings. In the retail end of things the marketers are not particularly precise in their descriptions and they are not consistent with what is used in the PATRICIA MURRAY & ASSOCIATES BRIGHTON (810) 229-8238 ANN ARBOR (313) 995-9545 1 2 Q. 3 A. 4 Q. 5 A. 6 7 8 Q. 9 10 A. 11 12 13 Q. 14 15 A. 16 17 18 19 Q. 20 A. 21 22 23 Q. 24 25 A. 58 ARNOLD ANDERSON OEM side of things. What do you mean by that? OEM is original equipment manufacturers. How are they not consistent is my question. The descriptive terms tend to be a little bit flowery, a little bit more, I think they call it puffery, to go along with their advertising. Why would organic be something that someone would want to put on a box? Can you think of any reason? Well, today for an aftermarket brake lining if you put organic on, it might be used to conceal the fact that it's an asbestos-based lining. Why would that be concealing the fact it's an asbestos-based lining? Well, if the box says organic brake lining, it doesn't say asbestos, does it? For some customers that would make a difference as far as their purchase decision. You would feel that would be misleading? There's a lot of things in the aftermarket brake lining I consider misleading but that in my opinion would be misleading at this stage, yes. What other things in the aftermarket brake area do you consider misleading from a marketing standpoint? I already indicated they sometimes call linings PATRICIA MURRAY & ASSOCIATES BRIGHTON (810) 229-8238 ANN ARBOR (313) 995-9545 1 2 3 4 5 Q. 6 7 A. 8 9 10 11 Q. 12 A. 13 Q. 14 15 A. 16 Q. 17 A. 18 Q. 19 A. 20 Q. 21 A. 22 23 Q. 24 25 A. 59 ARNOLD ANDERSON metallic and I've seen linings which were not semi-metallic linings that were referred to as semi-metallic merely because they contained some metal chips. Anything else you can think of in marketing that you feel is misleading in the aftermarket area? Yes. Very common to say meets or exceeds all state and federal standards. There are no state or federal standards. To make a statement it meets or exceeds is, I think, misleading. Anything else? Not that I can think of right now. Have you seen how Ford packages its aftermarket equipment? Equipment? Brakes. Brake shoes? Brake shoes, brake linings. Sure. Do they use this organic term on them? I don't remember seeing the term organic or semi-met or any other designation on the boxes. Is that under theMotorcraft name? Is that how that's distributed? I believe so. I would have to go back and take a PATRICIA MURRAY & ASSOCIATES BRIGHTON (810) 229-8238 ANN ARBOR (313) 995-9545 1 2 3 Q. 4 5 A. 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 60 ARNOLD ANDERSON look at the box. They've made some changes over time. Did Ford ever put on there meets or exceeds all state and federal standards? No, fortunately not. MR. COOK: I pass the witness. I need to put on the record, subject to this one document that I may have some more questions that is missing some pages. THE TECHNICIAN: Deposition concluded at 12:15 p.m. (Deposition concluded at 12:15 p.m.) ****** PATRICIA MURRAY & ASSOCIATES BRIGHTON (810) 229-8238 ANN ARBOR (313) 995-9545 61 __________________ARNOLD ANDERSON 1 CERTIFICATE 2 STATE OF MICHIGAN 3 COUNTY OF LIVINGSTON ) ) SS: ) 4 5 I, PATRICIA R. MURRAY, Certified Shorthand 6 Reporter, a Notary Public, hereby certify that I recorded 7 in shorthand the examination of ARNOLD ANDERSON, 8 the deponent in the foregoing deposition; and that prior 9 to the taking of said deposition the deponent was first 10 duly sworn, and that the foregoing is a true, correct and 11 complete transcript of the testimony of said deponent. 12 I further certify that no request was made for 13 submission of the transcript to the deponent for reading 14 and signature and that no such submission was made. 15 16 PATRICIA R. MURRAY, CSR-2155 17 Notary Public, Livingston County, Michigan 18 My commission expires: 1/27/01 19 Dated: This 7th day of May, 1998. 20 21 22 23 24 25 PATRICIA MURRAY & ASSOCIATES BRIGHTON (810) 229-8238 ANN ARBOR (313) 995-9545