Document mqJ2g7qDOj34pR6eNwz5DoVMZ

Ketcham Bruce - Hall Kenna 6-7-05.TXT 00001 1 IN THE SUPERIOR COURT OF THE STATE OF CALIFORNIA 2 IN AND FOR THE COUNTY OF ALAMEDA . 3 O0O---- 4 KENNA HALL, et al., '5 . Plaintiff, 6 vs. No. 835640-0 7 ASBESTOS CORPORATION, LTD., et al., 8 Defendants. 9 ./ 10 11 12 13 DEPOSITION OF BRUCE KETCHAM 14 15 16 17 Taken before DENISE M. LOMBARDO 18 CSR NO. 5419 19 June 7, 2005 20 21 22 23 24 25 00002 1 INDEX 2 3 EXAMINATION BY MS. GROSS 4 PAGE 5 5 EXHIBITS 6 PLAINTIFFS' 71 Notice of Taking the Deposition of PAGE 5 Custodian(s) of Records and person(s) 8 Most Knowledgeable of Defendant Rockwell International 9 2 Order dated May 27, 2005 15 10 3 Handwritten document consisting 20 'll of one page 12 4 Letter dated August 20, 1993 49 13 5 Spreadsheet 56 14 6 Document entitled "Sales by Principal 58 customers, September 1971" 15 7 Document entitled "customer Sales 60 16 Analysis," dated September 1979 17 8 Defendant Rockwell International 72 Corporation's Responses to Plaintiffs' 18 Standard iNterrogatories to Friction Defendants 19 9 Slide Presentation AV-91109 76 20 10 Document entitled "Brake Parts," 114 21 Rockwell 22 11 Document dated August 15, 1972 126 23 12 Letter dated May 19, 1975 127 Page 1 Ketcham Bruce - Hall Kenna 6-7-05.TXT 24 13 Answers of Defendant Rockwell 132 Automation 25 D00003 1 DEPOSITION OF BRUCE KETCHAM 2 3 BE IT REMEMBERED, that pursuant to Notice, and on 4 the 7th day of June 2005, commencing at the hour of 5 9:22 a.m., in the offices of Kazan, McClain, Edises, 6 Abrams, Fernandez, Lyons & Farrise, 171 - 12th street, 7 Suite 300, Oakland, California, before me, DENISE m. 8 LOMBARDO, a Certified Shorthand Reporter, personally 9 appeared BRUCE KETCHAM, produced as a witness in said 10 action, and being by me first duly sworn, was thereupon 11 examined as a witness in said cause. 12 13 , --o0o-- 14 15 TERRY N. GROSS, Kazan, McClain, Edises, Abrams, 16 Fernandez, Lyons & Farrise, 171 - 12th Street, suite 17 300, Oakland, California 94607, appeared on behalf of 18 the plaintiffs. 19 20 CHRISTOPHER A. KEELE, Stoel Rives, 111 Sutter 21 Street, Suite 700, San Francisco, California 94104, 22 appeared on behalf of the Defendant Rockwell 23 international, Inc. 24 25 000004 1 VALERIE E. ROSS, Goodwin Procter, 901 New York 2 Avenue, N.W, Washington, D.c. 20001, appeared on behalf 3 of the Defendant Rockwell International, Inc. 4 5 CHARLES OSTHIMER, Wright, Robinson, osthimer & 6 Tatum, 44 Montgomery Street, 18th Floor, San Francisco, 7 California 94104, appeared on behalf of the Defendant 8 Freightliner Corporation. 9 10 FRANK M. STEVENS, Stevens, Drummond & Gifford, 11 1910 Olympic Boulevard, suite 250, Walnut Creek, 12 California 94596, appeared on behalf of the Defendant 13 Pneumo Abex Corporation. 14 15 JENNIFER 3. LEE, McKenna, Long & Aldridge, One 16 Market street, San Francisco, California 94105, 17 appeared on behalf of the Defendants Maremont 18 Corporation; and Kelsey-Hayes. 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 00005 1 BRUCE KETCHAM, 2 sworn as a witness, 3 testified as follows: 4 (Plaintiffs' Exhibit No. 1 marked for 5 Identification.) 6 EXAMINATION BY MS. GROSS: 7 Q. Good morning, Mr. Ketcham. As you know, my Page 2 Ketcham Bruce - Hall Kenna 6-7-05.TXT 8 name is Terry Gross and I represent the plaintiffs in 9 this case. 10 could you please state your name for the 11 record. 12 A. Good morning. My name is Bruce Ketcham. 13 Q. what is your business address? 14 A. Business address is 39100 Country Club Drive in 15 Farmington Hills, Michigan. 16 MS. GROSS: Could counsel here identify 17 themselves and state whether they're admitted or*not to 18 the California state bar. 19 MR. KEELE: Christopher Keele, K-e-e-l-e, 20 appearing for Rockwell International. Yes, I am 21 admitted to the California state bar. 22 MS. ROSS: I'm Valerie Ross and I'm not 23 admitted. 24 MR. STEVENS: Frank Stevens, Stevens Drummond & 25 Gifford. I am a member of the bar and have been for 32 000006 1 years. 2 MS. ROSS: My application for pro hac vice in 3 this particular matter is currently pending before the 4 court. 5 BY MS. GROSS: 6 Q. I was going to ask you, Mr. Ketcham, if you've 7 had your deposition taken before, but I understand that 8 you nave. 9 Can you tell me the number of times that you've 10 had your deposition taken? 11 A. I would estimate somewhere between 12 and 15 12 times. 13 Q. Who is your employer, Mr. Ketcham? 14 A. I am employed by Exponent, incorporated. 15 Q. Were the depositions taken in relationship to 16 your work with Exponent? 17 A. Some of them were. IB Q. When was the first time you had your deposition 19 taken? How many years ago? 20 A. I believe it was in about 1993. 21 Q. Who was your employer at that time? 22 A. Rockwell international corporation. 23 Q. Can you tell me, of the 12 or 15 times that 24 your deposition was taken, was that related to your 25 work for Rockwell international? 00007 1 A. some of them were, yes. 2 Q. I'm primarily interested in the depositions 3 that were taken related to your work with Rockwell. 4 can you tell me, were any of those depositions 5 taken in California? 6 A. Taken here in California? 7 Q. Yes. 8 A. Physically taken in California? 9 Q. Yes. 10 A. I don't believe so. I'm not certain. 11 Q. is there any way for you to tell me how many of 12 those depositions were taken in asbestos-related 13 actions? 14 A. in friction asbestos actions, I've had one 15 other deposition. 16 Q. What was that one other deposition? 17 A. The case name are you referring to? 18 Q. Yes. Page 3 Ketcham Bruce - Hall Kenna 6-7-05.TXT 19 A. I believe it was Douglas. I don't recall the 20 full case caption. 21 Q. That was the name of the plaintiffs, Douglas? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. Have you ever testified in an asbestos-related 24 trial? 25 A. Yes, I have. 000008 1 Q. How many times? 2 A. Twice. 3 Q. Can you tell me the date of the first time that 4 you testified in an asbestos-related trial? 5 A. I don't recall the precise date. 6 Q. can you give me the year? 7 . A. Probably not the precise year. 8 Q. I'm sorry? 9 A. Probably not the precise year. 10 Q. Was it in the 1990s? 11 A. No. 12 Q. 1980s? 13 A. No. It was in the 2000s. 14 Q. Do you recall the caption of that case? 15 A. I believe it was Bargelski, and I don't recall 16 the named defendant. 17 Q. And what was the nature of your testimony in 18 that case? 19 A. it related to the sale and distribution of 20 friction products by Rockwell International. 21 Q. were you called as a witness by Rockwell? 22 A. I was called as a witness by ArvinMeritor. 23 Q. other than the sale and distribution by 24 Rockwell of friction products, what else was included 25 in your testimony in that trial? 00009 1 A. That was -- I think that was primarily what it 2 was about. I don't recall the other specifics at this 3 time. 4 Q. The second trial, that was after 2001, I 5 assume? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. When was that; do you recall? 8 A. That was in 2004. 9 Q. Where was that case? 10 A. in San Francisco. 11 Q. Do you recall the name of the caption of that 12 case? 13 A. The plaintiff's name was Crow. 14 Q. Do you recall plaintiff's counsel? 15 A. I don't. 16 Q. What was the nature of your testimony at the 17 second trial that you testified in? 18 A. Aaain, it was primarily related to the sales 19 and distribution of friction products. 20 Q. How long have you worked at your current 21 employer? 22 A. since 2000. 23 Q. I'm going to quickly go through some of the 24 admonitions related to depositions in California, 25 since you've been deposed so many times and testified D00010 1 at trial, I'll keep it brief. 2 First, I know that you understand that the 3 court reporter is taking down your testimony and that Page 4 Ketcham Bruce - Hall Kenna 6-7-05.TXT 4 even though we're in the informal conference room at my 5 office, your testimony is the same as if it's given in 6 a court of law. 7 You understand that? 8 A. Yes, I do. 9 Q. And we areinterested in your besttestimony 10 this morning. We're not interested in any guesses, but 11 certainly, with your experience, we are entitled to 12 your best estimate regarding the questions that I ask 13 this morning. 14 You understand that? 15 A. Yes, I do. 16 Q. You will have anopportunity, as you have in 17 the past, to review your deposition testimony and make 18 note of any errors, but I'm sure you understand that if 19 you do wish to make changes or if there are any 20 corrections, that can be commented upon at trial to 21 your embarrassment. 22 Do you understand that? 23 A. Yes, I do. 24 Q. Are you taking any drugs or medication or is 25 there any other reason why you can't give us your best 00011 1 testimony this morning? 2 A. No, there is not. 3 Q. What do you do for -- is it Exponential? 4 A. Exponent. 5 Q. Exponent is your current employer since 2000? 6 A. That's correct. 7 Q. What do you do for them? 8 A. My position title is senior managing engineer. 9 I'm an engineering consultant. 10 Q. What does that mean in terms of job duties? 11 A. It could involve the investigation of accidents 12 and crashes, perhaps dealing with clients on certain 13 potential recall-related matters, those types of 14 duties. 15 Q. Do you have any degrees that render you an 16 expert in any of those areas? 17 A. I have several degrees, yes. 18 Q. Why don't you briefly describe your educational 19 background. 20 A. okay. I have an electrical engineering degree 21 and a degree in industrial economics from Union 22 college. I have a Master's in business administration 23 from Xavier university, and I have a law degree from . 24 the University of Detroit. 25 Q. Have you practiced law? 00012 1 A. No, I have not. 2 Q. what is the relationship between Exponent and 3 Rockwell, if any? 4 A. There is no relationship beyond the client. 5 Q. So Rockwell is a client of Exponent; is that 6 correct? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. Can you tell me how Rockwell became a client of 9 Exponent? 10 A. Rockwell, through their counsel, hires Exponent 11 to represent them or to assist them in certain matters. 12 Q. Does that include asbestos-related matters? 13 A. Yes, it does. 14 Q. Are you being paid by Rockwell to appear here Page 5 Ketcham Bruce - Hall Kenna 6-7-05.TXT 15 today? 16 A. I'm being paid by counsel for Rockwell. 17 Q. Can you tell me what your hourly wage is? 18 A. Exponent currently bills $235 per hour for my 19 services. 20 Q. Did you ever work for Rockwell? 21 A. Yes, I did. 22 Q. Can you tell me the years of your employment? 23 A. I began working with them in 1978 and continued 24 through September of 1997. In '97, as you may be 25 aware, Rockwell International spun off the automotive 00013 1 businesses that they owned into a separate company 2 called Meritor Automotive, and I continued working for 3 them up until the year 2000. 4 Q. Have you reviewed anything in preparation for 5 your deposition today? 6 A. Yes, I have. 7 Q. what have you reviewed? 8 A. I've reviewed some interrogatory responses, 9 some of my prior testimony, and I've also reviewed some 10 documents. 11 Q. What prior testimony did you review? 12 A. The testimony that I gave in the two trials and 13 the deposition that I previously mentioned. 14 Q. What documents did you review? 15 A. Documents regarding some of the -- relevant to 16 some of the questions that you asked in the deposition 17 notice. 18 Q. Where were the documents located that you 19 reviewed? 20 A. I reviewed them with counsel. 21 Q. Would that be counsel for Rockwell in 22 Washington, D.C., or local counsel? 23 A. The most recent ones I reviewed yesterday with 24 both counsels. 25 Q. Where did the -- do you know where the 00014 1 documents that you reviewed came from? 2 A. I believe that they're from the materials that 3 were -- are maintained by Goodwin Procter. 4 Q. During your employment with Rockwell, did you 5 have any responsibility for the maintenance of business 6 records? 7 A. Only tangentially. 8 Q. What do you mean by "tangentially"? 9 A. Well, to the extent that either myself or the 10 departments that I supervised created records that 11 were -- needed to be maintained or retained or 12 whatever, we compiled with that policy. 13 Q. Have you had an opportunity to review the 14 deposition notice that was served in this case back in 15 January of 2005? 16 A. I've seen one similar to this. I don't know if 17 it's the exact one or not, but, yes, I've seen the 18 notice. 19 Q. When was the first time that you saw it? 20 A. Last week I believe it was. 21 Q. I've already marked this as Plaintiffs' 1. 22 Have you seen a copy of this order that was 23 filed in Alameda county superior Court? 24 A. I don't believe tnat I have seen that document. 25 I may have, but I don't believe so. Page 6 Ketcham Bruce - Hall Kenna 6-7-05.TXT D00015 1 Q. I'll mark this as plaintiffs' next. 2 MR. KEELE: Do you have copies of those, 3 Counsel? 4 MS. GROSS: I can make copies of them. 5 Actually, there's a copy of the deposition notice you 6 can keep. 7 (Plaintiffs' Exhibit No. 2 marked for 8 Identification.) 9 BY MS. GROSS: 10 Q. Is it your understanding that you're being 11 produced today as the custodian of records for Rockwell 12 International? 13 A. I don't know if that was my understanding. 14 Q. So you have no understanding one way or the 15 other of whether or not you're being produced as the 16 records custodian? 17 A. That's correct. 18 Q. Why don't we talk briefly, before we get into 19 the records custodian portion of the deposition notice, 20 about your job duties at Rockwell. 21 You started working at Rockwell International 22 in 1978; correct? 23 A. That is correct. 24 Q. What was your first job duty there? 25 A. My initial job title was sales order manager at 000016 1 their Florence, Kentucky, facility. 2 Q. what were your job duties there? 3 A. It was inside sales. The people that worked 4 for me handled the customer calls, the purchase orders 5 for service parts. 6 Q. what was the nature of Rockwell International's 7 business when you started working for them in 1978? 8 A. Rockwell international was a multinational 9 conglomerate at that point in time. The portion of the 10 business that I worked in was the automotive businesses 11 of Rockwell international. 12 Q. when you say "automotive businesses," what 13 kinds of vehicles are you including? 14 A. They made components for on-highway vehicles, 15 off-highway vehicles, industrial vehicles and passenger 16 cars and light trucks. 17 Q. what kind of components? 18 A. A whole variety of components. On the heavy 19 vehicle side, which is primarily the area that I was 20 working in, they made axle assemblies, brake 21 assemblies, drive lines and eventually went on to make 22 transmissions and clutches and joint ventures and ABS 23 components, plastic components. I think that was about 24 the major categories during the time that I was 25 employed by them in the heavy vehicle side of the 00017 1 business. 2 Q. Were you always employed in the heavy vehicle 3 side of the business at Rockwell International? 4 A. No, not always. Sometimes my later 5 responsibilities gravitated across both the light and 6 heavy vehicles segment. 7 Q. After your sales order manager job in Florence, 8 Kentucky, what else did you do? 9 A. My next position at Florence was as the 10 purchasing manager there. Page 7 Ketcham Bruce - Hall Kenna 6~7-05.TXT 11 Q. When did you start that job? 12 A. In 1978. 13 Q. What were your job duties as the purchasing 14 manager? 15 A. The people that worked for me were responsible 16 for buying and expediting what we call 17 purchase-complete items. Those were items such as 18 nuts, bolts, screws that were used in some of the 19 service parts that were distributed out of the Florence 20 facility. 21 People that worked for me also were responsible 22 for the nonproductive purchasing in the facility, such 23 as boxes and labels, as well as for contracts for the 24 operation of the facility. 25 Q. in 1978, was Rockwell manufacturing brake 00018 1 linings? 2 A. They were not manufacturing brake linings in 3 1978. 4 Q. Did your job duties as the purchasing manager 5 at the Florence, Kentucky, site include the purchase of 6 brake linings? 7 A. I can't recall. I don't know whether we 8 purchased those directly from the lining suppliers at 9 that point in time or.whether we got the linings 10 through what I would call your interplant sources. For 11 instance, we ordered other materials from the various 12 Rockwell automotive manufacturing plants, and they were 13 shipped to the distribution center for further 14 distribution to the customers. 15 Q. Were the manufacturing plants manufacturing 16 brake linings? 17 A. No, they were not. 18 Q. So the manufacturing plants were purchasing 19 them from outside sources? 20 A. At that point in time, that's correct. 21 Q. do you know who would have been in charge of 22 purchasing brake linings in 1978? 23 A. At that point in time, I believe that the 24 purchasing responsibilities resided with the plants. 25 So each individual manufacturing plant, as did 00019 1 Florence, had its own purchasing department. 2 Q. Was Florence a manufacturing plant or a supply 3 center? 4 A. At that point in time, they were strictly a 5 distribution center. They brought in components, 6 packaged them and reshipped them on out to customers. 7 Q. when you began working for Rockwell 8 international in 1978, how many manufacturing plants 9 were there, if you recall? 10 A. i would ask for a clarification, but that 11 wouldn't help either. I really don't recall. 12 Q. Was there some point in time in which you did 13 become aware of how many manufacturing plants Rockwell 14 International had during the 1970s? 15 A. Well, i generally knew the plants within the 16 automotive business, particularly within the heavy 17 vehicle segment side of the business, but, also, plants 18 were started and plants were closed during various 19 periods of time. So I don't know that i can give a 20 specific answer. 21 Q. Let's limit your answer to the side of the Page 8 Ketcham Bruce - Hall Kenna 6-7-05.TXT 22 company you are familiar with, the heavy vehicle side. 23 Can you tell me how many plants Rockwell had in 24 operation in 1978 with that limitation? 25 A. Not precisely, but would you like me to make an 00020 1 estimate? 2 Q. Take a stab at it. 3 A. can I have a piece of paper and make some 4 scribbles? 5 Q. sure. 6 A. Roughly, around 14. That's anestimate. 7 Q. That was in 1978? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. You have a list in front of you. Is that a 10 list of locations? 11 A. Some of them are. 12 Q. Can we mark that as anexhibit for the 13 convenience of the court reporter? 14 A. If you wish. I don't think it's legible, 15 but... 16 Q. Thank you. And I'll be asking you about those 17 plants later. 18 (Plaintiffs' Exhibit No. 3 marked for 19 identification.) 20 BY MS. GROSS: 21 Q. How long were you in the purchasing manager 22 position for Rockwell? 23 A. I believe that was until about 1982. 24 Q. Did the kinds of products that you were 25 purchasing change or did they remain the same? 00021 1 A. The basic products remained the same. Part 2 numbers may change, but the basic product remained the 3 same during that period of time. 4 Q. What did you do after that? 5 A. I became the production control manager at the 6 Florence facility. 7 Q. What does that mean? 8 A. As production control manager, I had the 9 various subdepartments reporting to me. At various 10 times they included the purchasing department, the 11 inventory control department, the specifications 12 department, the quality department, incoming, receiving 13 and production scheduling, and there may have been one 14 or two others at various points in time. I can't 15 recall. " 16 Q. Was there a manufacturing plant at that time 17 located at Florence? 18 A. No, there was not. 19 Q. so what location's production were you 20 controlling? 21 A. The production at Florence. 22 Q. what was the production at Florence? 23 A. The packaging and distribution of service 24 parts. 25 Q. what do you mean by "service parts"? 00022 1 A. Parts that are used in the service and repair 2 of Rockwell assemblies that were sold. - 3 Q. What Rockwell assemblies are you referring to? 4 A. All the components that were made or 5 distributed from the manufacturing plants which we have 6 previously talked about. Page 9 Ketcham Bruce - Hall Kerina 6-7-05.TXT 7 Q. How long did you stay in the position of 8 production control manager? 9 A. I was in that position till 1984. 10 Q. Then what did you do? 11 A. I became the division materials manager for the 12 on-highway axle division. 13 Q. what were your job duties in that position? 14 A. That was during a time of the consolidation of 15 the purchasing functions that were previously at all 16 the individual plants. They were now going through a 17 process of centralization. 18 I acted primarily as the coordinator liaison 19 between the central procurement unit that was being 20 established and the remaining purchasing materials 21 functions in the on-highway division plants. 22 I also had responsibility for various special 23 projects during that period of time. 24 Q. what kind of special projects? 25 A. There were all sorts of projects as far as D00023 1 relating to the distribution of goods to some of our 2 customers, such as line-setting operations, which is 3 basically shipping just in time to some of the 4 customers, as well as I was somewhat involved in the 5 conversion of the brake linings from asbestos to a 6 nonasbestos. 7 Q. During that 1984 time period when you were the 8 division materials manager -- 9 A. That's correct. 10 Q. -- for on-highway vehicles, did any of your job 11 duties include purchasing brake linings for on-highway 12 vehicles? 13 A. That was on-highway axle division. 14 Q. On-highway axledivision. 15 A. No. ' 16 Q. Who was responsible for purchasing brake 17 linings for the on-highway axle division? 18 A. That was during the transition at that point in 19 time from the plants to the centralized procurement 20 function in Troy, so it would have transitioned from 21 the individual buyers and purchasing management 22 responsibility in the plants to the buyers and the 23 purchasing management responsibilities in Troy, 24 Michigan, which is the headquarters. 25 Q. can you tell me who that individual was? In D00024 1 1984 during the transition, who became responsible for 2 the purchasing of brake linings? 3 A. I'm not certain as I sit here. 4 Q. How would I find that information out? 5 A. Make a request. 6 Q. So you don't know who was purchasing brake 7 linings during the 1978 through 1984 time period. 8 That's correct? 9 A. I said that I believe that those brake linings 10 were being purchased by the buyers and purchasing 11 management people that were located in the plants that 12 purchased brake linings. 13 Q. You don't know the name of any of those 14 individuals; correct? 15 A. probably, if I think about it, some will come 16 to me, but right now as I sit here, I don't. 17 Q. Tell me about your involvement with the Page 10 Ketcham Bruce - Hall Kenna 6-7-05.TXT 18 transition from asbestos to nonasbestos-containing 19 brake linings. 20 A. As I recall, that was primarily a process of 21 keeping the on-highway axle plants informed as far as 22 what was happening during that transition period. 23 Q. who, if anyone else, were you working with on 24 the transition? 25 A. I'm sure I was working with some of the people D00025 1 in the procurement function as well as the materials 2 people in the axle plants that used brake linings or 3 brake assemblies in their product. 4 Q. Can you tell me the names of any of those 5 people? 6 A. I'm sure that if I thought about it somewhat, I 7 might be able to think of some, but as I sit here, no. 8 Q. If some do come to mind, please do stop and 9 tell us. 10 Can you tell me what prompted the transition 11 from asbestos to nonasbestos-containing brake linings 12 at Rockwell International? 13 A. The domestic manufacturers of brake linings 14 went through a transition -- I want to say it was about 15 December of 1987 -- in which they closed their lining 16 manufacturing plants and retooled and reset up new 17 processes to change from making asbestos linings to 18 making nonasbestos linings in their facilities. 19 Q. What was your next position? 20 A. The next position was as a manager of product 21 compliance. 22 Q. What were your job duties in that position? 23 A. I was responsible in part for product safety 24 investigations, recalls, notification of customers that 25 might be involved in recalls of Rockwell products. D00026 1 Q. Did your product compliance job duties include 2 or were they in any way related to issues regarding 3 asbestos? 4 A. No. 5 Q. What was your next position? 6 A. My next position was as the manager of product 7 analysis. 8 Q. What did you do in that position? 9 A. I assisted both corporate counsel and outside 10 counsel in the defense of -- technical defense of 11 product litigation.* 12 Q. Did the litigationinclude asbestoslitigation? 13 A. Yes, it did. 14 Q. in that position,were you -- strike that. 15 In that position, did you have any 16 responsibilities for the maintenance of business 17 records related to the litigation? 18 A. Only to the extent of complying with any of the 19 records that I had in my department and providing those 20 to -- for retention, if necessary. 21 Q. Do you know if Rockwell has a record retention 22 policy? 23 A. when? 24 Q. During the time period that you worked there. 25 A. I was aware of it. At least some period of 00027 1 time, yes, they had a record retention policy. 2 Q. I'm going to go through the custody of records Page 11 Ketcham Bruce - Hall Kenna 6-7-05.txt 3 portion of the deposition notice and ask you some 4 questions about the production request. 5 The first request is for a record retention 6 policy. 7 My understanding is that you're aware that 8 Rockwell had a record retention policy during the time 9 period that you worked there; correct? 10 A. Yes. At least during part of the period of 11 time, I'm aware that they had a retention policy. 12 Q. Are you producing Rockwell's record retention 13 policy today? 14 A. I nave no documents with me. 15 Q. do you know when Rockwell first initiated its 16 record retention policy? 17 A. No, i don't. 18 Q. Do you know anything about Rockwell's record 19 retention policy? 20 A. somewhat. 21 Q. Why don't you describe for me, as best you can, 22 what Rockwell's record retention policy was during the 23 time period that you worked for Rockwell, if you can. 24 A. were there some documents? I don't know if you 25 have that policy or not. D00028 1 Q. I don't have themin this case. That's why I'm 2 asking you about them. 3 MR. KEELE: I think, counsel, those documents 4 were made available for your inspection. 5 MS. GROSS: in Washington, D.C., this week? 6 MR. KEELE: correct. 7 MS. GROSS: I see nods of the head. 8 MR. KEELE: Last week. 9 MS. GROSS: And I haven't received copies of 10 them yet. 11 BY MS. GROSS: 12 Q. is there any way for you to describe, based on 13 your personal knowledge, the record retention policy? 14 A. in generalities, yes. 15 Q. Go ahead, please. 16 A. There were -- as I recall, the policy that I 17 was familiar with had various categories of documents 18 and outlined the number of years for which those 19 documents were to be maintained or retained. 20 Q. Did you have any responsibilities related to 21 the formulation of that policy? 22 A. No, I did not. 23 Q. In any of your job duties at Rockwell, did you 24 get involved with tne retention of business records 25 other than for the area that you were responsible for? 00029 1 A. Not really. Not that I can recall. 2 Q. can you tell me if Rockwell maintains 3 historical business records with an independent 4 contractor? 5 A. can you clarify the question? 6 Q. Yes. I'm going to ask you about locations 7 where Rockwell maintains its historical business 8 records. 9 The first one is: Are there off-site 10 facilities where Rockwell maintains historical business 11 records? 12 A. There used to be. There may still be. 13 Q. You're not sure? Page 12 Ketcham Bruce - Hall Kenna 6-7-05.TXT 14 A. As I sit here, I'm not certain that they still 15 exist today, but at one point in time, there were. 16 Q. Please remind me how long it's been since you 17 left Rockwell's employment. 18 A. 2000. 19 Q. If you could quickly go through pages 3, 4 to 20 the middle of page 5 and tell me what Kind of search, 21 if any, you conducted for documents responsive -- 22 MR. KEELE: Uust to clarify, Mr. Ketcham 23 personally, what search he personally conducted?24 MS. GROSS: Yes. 25 the witness: where did you wish me to start? 00030 1 BY MS. GROSS: 2 Q. At the top of page 3, there are categories that 3 run through the middle of page 5 of the deposition 4 notice. 5 A. And your question again, please? 6 Or could you read it back? 7 (Record read by the Reporter.) 8 THE witness: in response to 2, I went through 9 and searched the customer master, had customer name and 10 address master for those names that are listed here. 11 BY MS. GROSS: 12 Q. Where was the customer master -- strike that. 13 What is the customer master? 14 A. The customer name and address master is a 15 listing of customers that Rockwell sold to during the 16 period from late 1960s to 1995. 17 Q. Is that a computerized list or is it on a 18 database, is my question? 19 A. Is it currently on a database, no. 20 Q. It's a hard copy? 21 A. it'5 a hard copy. 22 Q. where is that listed located? 23 A. At ArvinMeritor. 24 Q. what location at ArvinMeritor? 25 A. Troy, Michigan. D00031 1 Q. Is it located in a certain department? 2 A. Currently? 3 Q. Yes. 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. What department? 6 A. Legal. 7 Q. What were the results of your search of the 8 customer master list? 9 A. All of the names that were on this list here, 10 list of vehicle manufacturers, with the exception of 11 Daimlerchrysler corporation -- and making some 12 allowance for spelling -- were on the list. 13 Q. What kind of information is contained on the 14 customer master list? 15 A. A customer code, a name and address. 16 Q. How do you search the list? 17 A. The list is available in two formats: One is 18 alphabetical by the entity's name. The other listing 19 is a customer code list listing, alphabetical, 20 numerical. 21 Q. Is there any information on the customer master 22 list regarding sales made to a customer? 23 A. No. 24 Q. To find out what sales were made to the Page 13 Ketcham Bruce - Hall Kenna 6-7-05.TXT 25 customers on the list, what is your next step? 000032 1 A. For what period of time and to which customers? 2 Q. The period of time -- the time period for this 3 particular deposition notice and for the case, 4 actually, is 1970 through 1990. The vehicle 5 manufacturers that we're interested in are identified 6 on the deposition notice under "vehicle manufacturer." 7 A. What I also did -- and maybe we can talk about 8 that, also -- is that for -- in response to No. 3 here, 9 all right, X did search a couple of -- or had a search 10 done for a couple of the vehicle manufacturers for 11 service part sales for a couple years. 12 Q. How did you do that search? 13 A. Information was requested from our Florence, 14 Kentucky, facility to provide information for, as I 15 recall,for select years for select customers. 16 Q. How did they do the search at the Florence, 17 Kentucky, facility? 18 A. That is based upon customer code and the time 19 period. 20 Q. Do they maintain sales records at the Florence, 21 Kentucky, facility? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. How far back in time? 24 A. They go back to about 1977 or '78. 25 Q. Can you tell me the format in which the sales 000033 1 records at the Florence, Kentucky, facility are 2 maintained? 3 A. By "formatyou meanwhat? 4 Q. Are they maintained in hard copy? Are they 5 scanned onto a computer? Are they in a database? 6 A. They're in a database. 7 Q. Are you familiar with searching that database? 8 A. From an information technology standpoint? 9 Q. Have you ever searched that database in 10 Florence, Kentucky, that contains information regarding 11 sales? , 12 A. I personally have not. 13 Q. Do you know anything about how it's searched? 14 A. Can you clarify? 15 Q. Yes. 16 When I do a search, for instance, for 17 information in some of the databases here, I have a 18 field that I can input information into, specific 19 information. 20 Do you know whether or not the database in 21 Florence, Kentucky, is searchable by a field? 22 A. It's my belief that it would be since my 23 requests for searches are made by customer and a 24 particular time period that I'm interested in. 25 000034 Q. who do you request the search from? 1 A. I currently request it from a gentleman by the 2 name of Timothy Rogers. 3 Q. what's his position at Rockwell? 4 a. He is in the information technology department 5 at Florence. His exact job title I'm uncertain of. 6 Q. So to obtain records responsive to categories 7 No. 2 and 3, it sounds like you reviewed the customer 8 list which I believe was produced to us; is that 9 correct? - Page 14 Ketcham Bruce - Hall Kenna 6-7-05.TXT 10 MS. ROSS: The customer list was not produced 11 to you. 12 BY MS. GROSS: 13 Q. You reguested sales records from the Florence, 14 Kentucky, location; is that correct? 15 A. Some sales records for some periods of time, 16 yes. 17 Q. And did you obtain some sales records? 18 A. Yes, I did. 19 Q. Were those produced to counsel in Washington, 20 O.C.? 21 A. I don't recall. 22 Q. which vehicle manufacturers did you request 23 sales records for? 24 a. I think that is probably outlined in some of 25 the interrogatory responses. If you have that, i'd be 00035 1 glad to comment. 2 Q. I'll ask you about the interrogatory responses. 3 Let's keep moving through the deposition notice. 4 Any other searches conducted for documents 5 responsive to categories No. 2 and 3? 6 A. I don't believe so. There may have been, but I 7 don't believe so. 8 Q. The sales records -- what kinds of information 9 do the sales records contain? 10 A. The sales records at Florence, they contain 11 information on customer code -- and this is not all 12 inclusive. This is just what I can recall -- customer 13 code, quantity, purchase order number, date shipped, 14 and there are a number of other fields in there, some 15 of which I think are in some documents that have been 16 provided to you. 17 Q. Any information regarding the kind of part that 18 was purchased? 19 A. only from -- I'm sorry. Part number is there 20 as well as there is a product code. 21 Q. is there any way to tell from the part number 22 or the product code whether or not the product that was 23 shipped contained asbestos? 24 A. No. 25 Q. Category no. 4, which is limited to documents 00036 1 containing information regarding asbestos-containing 2 products, what kind of search, if any, did you do for 3 responsive documents? 4 A. I did no search on that for this particular 5 case. 6 Q. Why is that? 7 A. Those types of documents typically would have 8 been gathered ana retained by Goodwin Procter. 9 Q. Were you a part of the Goodwin Procter effort 10 to obtain documents related to asbestos litigation? 11 A. No, I was not. 12 Q. Do you know who from Rockwell or ArvinMeritor 13 would have been involved in putting together asbestos 14 litigation documents? 15 A. No, I don't. 16 Q. Let's look at page 4. What kind of search, if 17 any, did you do for category No. 5? 18 A. I contacted a gentleman to see if any of those 19 agreements existed. 20 Q. Who did you contact? Page 15 Ketcham Bruce - Hall Kenna 6-7-05.TXT 21 A. His name is Dennis Kline. 22 Q. what is his position? 23 A. He is -- I'm not sure of his exact job title. 24 He is in the sales and marketing function. 25 Q. where is the sales and marketing function for D00037 1 heavy-duty vehicle products located? 2 A. In Troy, Michigan. 3 Q. Is the gentleman that you contacted the head of 4 sales and marketing? 5 A. As I said, I don't know exactly what his job 6 title is. 7 Q. Do you know whether sales and marketing retains 8 records, historical business records? 9 A. I don't know whether these particular records 10 here are maintained or not. 11 Q. Moving along to category No. 6, can you tell me 12 what search, if any, you conducted for documents 13 responsive to category No. 6? 14 A. I looked to see whether the three entities 15 there were on the name and address master. 16 Q. Were they? 17 A. No. 18 Q. What is the -- did you say main address master? 19 A. Name. 20 Q. is that different from the customer list? 21 A. No. 22 And I think beyond the entities there, there 23 was some question as far as sales into particular 24 counties. 25 Q. Yes. 00038 1 A. And I believe that was eventually limited to 2 placer -- is that the pronunciation -- County. 3 Q. Yes. 4 A. And I did a search based upon zip codes for 5 that county and did not locate any distributor within 6 that county that matched any zip codes. 7 Q. Category No. 7, what, if any, search did you 8 conduct for documents responsive to category No. 7? 9 A. I did not. 10 Q. why was that? 11 A. Again, those are typically documents that would 12 have been gathered and maintained by Goodwin Procter. 13 Q. Category No. 8, same question; 14 A. I did not. 15 Q. For the same reason? 16 A. That's correct. 17 Q. Maintained by Goodwin Procter. 18 Category No. 9? 19 A. I did not, other than the copies that I have 20 for myself, but those are also typically maintained by 21 Goodwin Procter. 22 Q. Category No. 10? 23 A. I,.did not. 24 Q. same reason? 25 A. Yes, that's correct. 00039 1 Q. Category No. 11, same question. 2 A. I did not. 3 Q. why not? 4 A. Again, those are documents that typically would 5 be maintained and gathered by Goodwin Procter. Page 16 Ketcham Bruce - Hall Kenna 6-7-05.TXT 6 Q. category No. 12, same question. 7 A. And the same response. 8 - Q. Could you tell me, of the remaining categories, 9 13 through 15, which, if any, you conducted a search 10 for responsive documents regarding? 11 A. On all of those I aid not search. And, again, 12 those were documents that typically would be gathered 13 and maintained by Goodwin Procter. 14 Q. A few more questions regarding how Rockwell 15 maintains historical documents. 16 I'm going to show you answers to discovery that 17 you verified in March of 2002. 18 A. okay. 19 MR. KEELE: what's the title of that document, 20 Counsel, just for identification purposes? 21 MS. GROSS: Answers of Defendant Rockwell 22 Automation. 23 MR. KEELE: Is there a set number? 24 MS. GROSS: Plaintiff Kenna Hall, Set One. 25 MR. KEELE: Thank you. 000040 1 BY MS. GROSS: 2 Q. In response to interrogatory No. 3, Rockwell 3 states that it has reviewed company records regarding 4 possible sales to Mack Trucks, Freightliner, Murray 5 Trailer and has ascertained that Rockwell sold 6 assemblies from time to time to Mack, Freightliner, 7 Murray Trailers during the 1965 to 1995 time period. 8 And I'll show you that paragraph, if you want 9 to take a minute and read it. 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. Are you the person that conducted the search 12 described there? 13 A. Yes, I did. 14 Q. Do you recall what steps you took to identify 15 the fact that Rockwell sold to Mack Truck, Freightliner 16 and Murray? 17 A. Yes, the steps that I had previously described, 18 would you like me to restate them? 19 Q. Yes. 20 A. Did a search -- and this is as best as I can 21 recall. But we were able to identify the customer 22 codes that related to those customers, and a request 23 was made to Florence for certain years to gather the 24 information of sales to those customers. 25 And then based upon those part numbers that D00041 1 were provided as part of that, a search was done to 2 ascertain that they were -- contained -- or that some 3 of those part numbers contained brake linings and that 4 some of them at least were asbestos-containing 5 materials. 6 Qk How did you determine that the materials 7 were -- that the part numbers were brake linings and 8 that they contained asbestos? 9 A. For those specific searches that I did at that 10 point in time, I don't have a specific recollection, 11 but I can give you the general process that I would' go 12 through in order to ascertain that information. 13 Based upon a part number, which is typically 14 either a lining part number or a brake assembly part 15 number, either I or I would have somebody else try to 16 break that down using a bill of material to determine Page 17 Ketcham Bruce - Hall Kenna 6-7-05.TXT 17 what the 1 ini no part number was that was on that shoe 18 or in that brake assembly. 19 Once the lining part number is determined, 20 typically, you would go to the lining part number 21 drawing. On the lining part number drawing, typically, 22 there is a material specification or lining mix that is 23 shown on the drawing, and based upon that material 24 specification or lining mix, you can determine whether 25 it is asbestos-containing or nonasbestos-containing. 000042 1 And there may be other steps that are gone through for 2 various other components. 3 Q. Where are the drawings that you would review 4 located? 5 A. in Troy, Michigan, at ArvinMeritor. 6 Q. Do you know how far back in time the drawings 7 go? 8 A. I don't know how far back they go. They go 9 quite a ways back. 10 Q. Quite a ways would be '50s? '60s? 11 A. Before that. 12 Q. Before that? 13 A. Before that. 14 Q. 1930s or '40s? You're just not sure? 15 A. Quite conceivably. 16 Q. The bills of material, where are those located? 17 A. In Troy, Michigan. 18 Q. How far back in time do those qo? 19 A. They go back a ways. I don't know how far 20 back. 21 Q. Would they parallel the drawings? 22 A. I'm not certain. 23 Q. Who did you request to do the searches at Troy, 24 Michigan? 25 000043 A. A gentleman by the name of David Detloff would 1 typically assist me on those types of searches. 2 Q. What department is he employed in? 3 A. He's in the brake engineering department. He's 4 a draftsperson. 5 Q. Is it your testimony here today that Rockwell 6 has no record of sales to other vehicle manufacturers 7 identified in this case, other than Mack Truck, 8 Freightliner and Murray Trailers? 9 A. No, that is not my testimony. 10 Q. Did you conduct or did anyone conduct a search 11 for documents indicating sales to the other vehicle 12 manufacturers identified in the deposition notice? 13 A. Not to my knowledge. 14 Q. How did you wind up with these three names only 15 in the interrogatories? 16 MR. KEELE: if you need to review the 17 interrogatory question, Mr. Ketcham, to get a context 18 for that, please feel free to do so. 19 THE WITNESS: Are there other interrogatories 20 that were answered in this particular case? 21 ^ MS. GROSS: There were what we call Dieden 22 interrogatories. There were Alameda County general 23 corporate interrogatories that were answered, but those 24 would be the case-specific interroaatories. 25 THE WITNESS: These are the case-specific 000044 1 interrogatories? Page 18 Ketcham Bruce - Hall Kenna 6-7-05.TXT 2 MS. GROSS: Correct. 3 MR. ICEELE: Also, I'd ask, if there are 4 supplemental answers, that those be produced as well to 5 the witness. 6 MS. GROSS: Sure. I don't have supplemental 7 responses. 8 Why don't we take a short break because it 9 would be important to locate them. 10 (Off the record.) 11 MS. GROSS: Back on the record. 12 BY MS. GROSS: 13 Q. I found Rockwell's supplemental responses to 14 plaintiffs' set one, again, verified by yourself. 15 I'm showing tne witness the verification dated 16 May 23rd, 2002. 17 Take a look at the answer. I have a couple of 18 questions for you. 19 A. (Witness complying.) 20 Q. In addition to the entitiesMack Trucks, 21 Freightliner Corporation, Murray Trailers, the 22 supplemental responses include utility; is that 23 correct? 24 A. That is correct. 25 Q. I would represent to youthat we have received 000045 1 discovery in this case from International Harvester, 2 also known as Navistar, listed as Navistar 3 International on our discovery, as well as General 4 Motors, to name two that I'm aware of, that have 5 identified Rockwell as a supplier of axles, brake 6 assemblies. 7 can you describe for me why those names were 8 not included in your discovery responses, if you know? 9 A. To the best of my recollection, as I sit here, 10 the names that were included in the discovery responses 11 were the ones that I was requested to check. 12 Q. So if I understand you correctly, it's not that 13 you went -- did you go through -- strike that. 14 Did you go through the list of vehicle 15 manufacturers to check for these vehicles on the 16 customer list? 17 MR. KEELE: Objection. Vague as to "these 18 vehicles." 19 MS. GROSS: The vehicles identified in 20 interrogatory No. 3 of our discovery responses and also 21 again on our deposition notice. 22 THE WITNESS: I went through and looked to see 23 if the names of the vehicle manufacturers, represented 24 to be the names of the vehicle manufacturers, appeared 25 on the customer name and address list, and they did. 00046 1 BY MS. GROSS: 2 Q. The four that you identified? 3 A. And then I went and looked at the four and 4 requested Florence, for particular years, to run some 5 of the sales records that they have. And as I recall, 6 I did research to determine that we, in fact, sold 7 those four entities asbestos-containing brake products. 8 Q. What's confusing me is why you chose those four 9 as opposed to the other names on tne list. 10 A. I believe I was requested to search those by 11 counsel. 12 Q. Your search was limited to those four on this Page 19 Ketcham Bruce - Hall Kenna 6-7-05.TXT 13 list? 14 A. Yes, I believe that is correct. 15 MS. GROSS: Well, I'm going to request that a 16 search be conducted for sales information regarding all 17 the names on the vehicle list. 18 MR. KEELE: To the extent it hasn't been done? 19 MS. GROSS: Yes. 20 MR. KEELE: Your request is noted, Counsel. 21 BY MS. GROSS: 22 Q. I'm going to show you some exhibits that were 23 attached to your deposition. And I don't think I can 24 pronounce the name, but it begins with a B, one of the 25 cases that you identified earlier. 000047 1 A. Bargelski. 2 Q. Bargelski. And they're at the purple tabs. 3 A. Although I may have misspoke. You said 4 "deposition." 5 Q. These are exhibits. It looks like the case is 6 George and Bonnie Douglas -- does that ring a bell -- 7 in New Orleans, Louisiana. 8 A. Yeah. Douglas is the one that I talked about 9 having the deposition, yes, not Bargelski. 10 Q. could you take a look at the three purple 11 tabbed items? 12 MR. KEELE: counsel, I'd ask that you identify 13 those for the record so we have a clean record going 14 forward. 15 MS. GROSS: I will. 16 BY MS. gross: 17 Q. Dust take a look at them and I'll identify 18 them. 19 A. (witness complying.) 20 Q. I've shown Mr. Ketcham three documents attached 21 as exhibits to the Douglas deposition. One of them is 22 an August 20th, 1993 letter. They don't have Bates 23 stamps on them, but one of them looks like a chart. 24 One of them is marked as Deposition Exhibit 3 entitled 25 "Compiled From Data From Product support systems, OEM 000048 1 Sales Systems." 2 sir, can you tell me if this is a document -- a 3 compilation of documents generated by Rockwell? 4 MR. KEELE: Again, "this" being Exhibit 3 to 5 the Douglas deposition? 6 MS. GROSS: Correct. 7 THE WITNESS: I'm sorry. The question was -- 8 BY MS. GROSS: 9 Q. can you tell me if that compilation was 10 generated by Rockwell? 11 A. That compilation was generated by -- that's 12 correct. 13 Q. Can you describe for me what the document is? 14 A. Which document? 15 Q. The one I just asked you about. 16 MR. KEELE: Exhibit 3. 17 THE WITNESS: Exhibit 3? 18 MS. gross: Yes. 19 THE WITNESS: That is a listing for two 20 distributors, Fleet Parts and Heavy Duty Sales, of 21 brake shoes and air disk brake kits. 22 BY MS. GROSS: 23 Q. Can you tell me how that compilation was made? Page 20 Ketcham Bruce - Hall Kenna 6-7-05.TXT 24 A. At this point in time, I don't recall. 25 Q. Did you know at some time? 000049 1 A. I'm sure I did. 2 Q. Did you make the compilation? 3 A. Yes, I did. 4 Q. Let me take a look at it. 5 Actually, I need to go make a copy of these 6 three, i'll be right back. 7 (off the record.) 8 (Plaintiffs' Exhibit No. 4 marked for 9 identification.) 10 BY MS. gross: 11 Q. Back on the record. 12 Can you tell me, looking at the August 20th 13 letter, who Bienvenu, Foster firm represents? 14 A. I believe it may be the plaintiff. I'm not 15 certain. 16 Q. You have no association with that name? 17 A. Hold on a second here. 18 I don't know, and I think that last statement 19 was probably a mistake. I'm sorry. 20 q. So you have no association with that name? 21 A. No. No. 22 Q. But were you the person who made this 23 compilation that's marked as Exhibit 3? 24 A. I believe I was, yes. 25 Q. How did you go about making the compilation? 00050 1 A. That was what I said. I really don't recall at 2 this point in time. 3 Q. My understanding from looking at this -- please 4 correct me if I'm wrong -- is that it is a compilation 5 of products sold to a specific entity, 6 asbestos-containing products sold to a specific entity 7 between 1978 and 1992; is that correct? 8 A. That is correct. 9 Q. So it is possible for you to provide the amount 10 of sales that Rockwell made of asbestos-containing 11 products to a specific entity during a time period? 12 MR. KEELE: Objection. Speculation. Vague. 13 THE witness: To a certain extent, it is, yes, 14 in doing the process that I had previously described to 15 you. 16 BY MS. gross: 17 Q. So for the vehicle manufacturers identified in 18 this case, can you provide the amount of sales of 19 asbestos-containing products during the relevant time 20 period? 21 A. For sales from Florence, starting in the late 22 '70s. 23 Q. Is that what is represented on this 24 compilation? 25 A. Yes, it is, to the best of my knowledge. 000051 1 Q. You limited it to sales from Florence. Why is 2 that? 3 A. Because those sales records exist for at least 4 a portion of the relevant time period that we've 5 discussed. 6 Q. What about sales records from the manufacturing 7 plants? 8 A. Those do not exist during the relevant period Page 21 Ketcham Bruce - Hall Kenna 6-7-05.TXT 9 of time. 10 Q. Do you know what happened to those documents? 11 A. Those are no longer available. Those have been 12 disposed of. 13 Q. How do you know that? 14 A. Because I'm aware of it. 15 Q. Were you involved in the disposal of documents? 16 A. in the disposal, no. 17 Q. Do you know when they were disposed? 18 A. I know when certain documents were disposed or 19 approximately when certain documents were -- when some 20 documents were disposed. 21 Q. Do you know when the sales of axles containing 22 brake assemblies containing asbestos-containing brake 23 linings were disposed of? 24 A. We had -- I know when some sales records for 25 some plants for some years were disposed of. 00052 1 Q. Why don't you tell me what you know about the 2 disposal of sales records of Rockwell's 3 asbestos-containing products. 4 A. On the OEM side of the business, there were 5 sales records that were -- collected paper sales 6 records that were collected from some plants for some 7 periods of times. They were not complete and they were 8 subsequently disposed of. 9 Q. When was that? 10 A. In the late '90s. 11 Q. What else can you tell me about the disposal of 12 sales records of Rockwell's asbestos-containing 13 products, if anything? 14 MR. KEELE: Objection, vague, overbroad. 15 THE WITNESS: what would you like to know? 16 BY MS. GROSS: 17 Q. Well, you described vaguely what you know about 18 the OEM sales records disposal. What about sales of 19 replacement parts or service parts? 20 A. On the service parts side, those exist from '77 21 or '78 to date. 22 Q. Do you know anything about what prompted the 23 disposal of the OEM sales records in the late 1990s? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. What do you know about what prompted the 00053 1 disposal? 2 A. The sales records were in record retention 3 storage. A notice was sent to the legal department 4 requesting whether they should be retained or not 5 because they were -- the records that we're talking 6 about were beyond the normal disposal time limit. 7 No response was received back and the records 8 were disposed of. 9 Q. Do you know how far back in time the sales 10 records of the OEM sales went that were disposed of? 11 A. They varied by plant. We did not nave all 12 plants. The years that we had for each plant varied 13 from time to time, and I don't know how far back -- the 14 furthest back one went. 15 Q. Just to make sure I have this right, the sales 16 records that we're talking about are sales by Rockwell 17 of asbestos-containing products to OEMs? 18 A. They are sale -- all sales, not just 19 asbestos-containing products. Let me make that clear. Page 22 Ketcham Bruce - Hall Kenna 6-7-05.TXT 20 of all products from certain plants for certain periods 21 of time. 22 Q. You're very careful about certain plants, using 23 the language "certain plants," "certain periods of 24 time." Why is that? 25 A. Because it varied and we did not have sales -- 00054 1 paper sales records for all plants, and they were not 2 consistent as far as start date or even dates 3 available. 4 Q. So the compilation that was used in the Douglas 5 case was from data from the product support system OEM 6 sales system. 7 What can you tell me about that database? 8 A. I really don't recall. 9 Q. The date on the letter is 1993. can you tell 10 me if that was before or after there was this disposal 11 of sales records that you were describing earlier? 12 A. This was before. 13 Q. If I wanted to find out more information about 14 the OEM sales system, who would have that information 15 at Rockwell or at Arvin? 16 A. I'm uncertain. 17 Q. Is there a department called product support 18 systems? 19 A. I don't know. I don't recall at this point. 20 Q. Because you haven't worked there since 2000? 21 A. I've been gone since 2000. 22 You're asking here about some information that 23 was generated 12 years ago and I just don't recall. 24 Q. Looking at that column, again, on Exhibit 3 -- 25 well, the compilation that's marked as Exhibit 3 from D00055 1 the prior deposition, what is it about those part 2 numbers that leads you to believe that they're 3 asbestos-containing products? 4 A. That tells me that they're asbestos-containing, 5 nothing. 6 Q. Do you know whether they're asbestos-containing 7 or not? 8 A. That was the -- as I recall, that was the 9 purpose of going through the exercise. So, I mean, we 10 would have taken those part numbers, determined the 11 linings that were on them, determined the mix that was 12 on them or the material specifications, as I had 13 previously described to you the process that's 14 necessary to go through to identify if something has 15 asbestos-containing lining on it. And these are the 16 ones that would have been identified. 17 Q. So if I gave you part numbers, you could find, 18 potentially, bills of material, make your way back to 19 product drawings, and there you would find tne brake 20 lining specifications. 21 Do I have that process correct? 22 A. In general, yes. There may be different things 23 that would be needed to be looked at, but in general, 24 that's the process. 25 Q. And here, one of the headings is "Fleet Parts." 00056 1 Are you familiar with Fleet parts? is that the name of 2 a company? 3 A. I believe that is the name of a company. 4 Q. Heavy Duty is also listed -- Page 23 Ketcham Bruce - Ha11 Kenna 6-7-05.TXT 5 A. I believe that is the name of a company. 6 Q. I have a few more questions regarding documents 7 that our investigator reviewed at the Goodwin Procter 8 law offices in Washington recently. 9 I'm going to mark this as plaintiffs1 next and 10 show it to Mr. Ketcham. 11 (Plaintiffs' Exhibit No. 5 marked for 12 Identification.) 13 BY MS. GROSS: 14 Q. Have you seen this kind of spreadsheet before? 15 MR. keele: Let's mark it as an exhibit first. 16 MS. gross: It is marked. 17 THE witness: Yes, I have. 18 BY MS. GROSS: 19 Q. What is it? 20 A. It appears to be an invoice account listing. 21 Q. can you tell me how this document is generated? 22 A. It appears to be a computer-generated document. 23 Q. Did any of your job duties include working with 24 these kind of spreadsheets? 25 A. Not that I can recall. 00057 1 Q. Can you tell me what the information represents 2 regarding sales to a particular account? 3 A. It appears to be a compilation of customer 4 codes, part numbers, customer names, dates, quantities 5 and sales dollars and also includes what I would 6 believe to be perhaps the customer order number as well 7 as the customer part number. 8 Q. For the customers identified in the customer 9 list, do you know if this kind of spreadsheet regarding 10 their sales history -- regarding Rockwell's sales 11 history to them can be generated? 12 A. Not for the relevant time period, I do not 13 believe. 14 Q. what do you mean by "the relevant time period"? 15 A. I don't believe that this type of data goes 16 back to 1989, 1990. 17 Q. The relevant time period here is 1970 to 1990. 18 A. Right. 19 Q. How far back in time does the information go? 20 I see 4-15-86 on the invoice. 21 A. On these pieces here (indicating), these pieces 22 of paper, yes. 23 Q. So then I don't understand your last response. 24 How far back in time can this kind of 25 spreadsheet memorialize information I guess is my 00058 1 question. 2 A. This was generated at some point in time, okay, 3 in the past. 4 Q. I'll agree. 5 A. In the past. 6 Q. Yes. 7 A. And I don't believe that that information 8 exists anymore for the past. 9 Q. Information regarding sales -- 10 A. That's correct. 11 Q. -- or a specific company? 12 A. sales information such as this. 13 Q. How far back in time do you think the 14 information poes? 15 A. I think it goes back somewhere into the '90s. Page 24 Ketcham Bruce - Hall Kenna 6-7-05.TXT 16 Q. And how do you know that? 17 A. I believe at some point in the past I've 18 inquired on that. 19 Q. Who would you inquire that information from? 20 A. I don't recall who that individual was or would 21 be. 22 Q. I'm going to mark as next -- 23 You could mark that and hand it to the witness. 24 (Plaintiffs' Exhibit No. 6 marked for 25 identification.) 000059 1 BY MS. gross: 2 q. Have you seen this kind of document before? 3 A. I don't recall seeing this type of document 4 before, no. 5 Q. can you tell me what it is? 6 MR. KEELE: objection. Foundation. 7 THE WITNESS: The document speaks to itself and 8 it says, "Ashtabula Brake Plant, Sales By principal 9 Customers," and the date there is September 1971. 10 BY MS. GROSS: 11 Q. Can you tell me if every plant maintained this 12 kind of list? 13 A. I do not know. 14 Q. Who would havethat information? 15 A. I do not know. 16 Q. i'm going to include this, which is the second 17 page, I think, of that document, in the exhibit. 18 Take a look at that. I think it's the 19 identical document or a continuation of it. 20 A. It appears to be identical. 21 Q. Can you tell me if Rockwell did any evaluation 22 of its share of the heavy-duty market, on-highway 23 vehicles? 24 A. I'm sure probably at some points in time that 25 they may have for certain products, that type of thing. 000060 1 Yes, they may have. 2 Q. Were you ever involved with that kind of 3 evaluation or analysis? 4 A. As I recall, only from the larger point of 5 perhaps some questions that I might have been asked in 6 deposition or trial. 7 Q. is there a department at Rockwell that includes 8 marketing and analysis? 9 A. There may be. 10 Q. But you're not familiar with that because you 11 haven't worked there in five years? 12 A. I haven't worked there in five years. 13 Q. I'm going to mark as plaintiffs' next and show 14 the September 1979 spreadsheet to the witness. 15 (Plaintiffs' Exhibit No. 7 marked for 16 Identification.) 17 BY ms. gross: 18 Q. Are you familiar with this spreadsheet that's 19 marked as Exhibit 7? 20 A. I have seen it before, yes. 21 Q. Can you tell me what kind of information is 22 provided on it? 23 A. I'm uncertain. However, it appears to be sales 24 to specific customers for a specific period of time. 25 Q. is there any way for you to identify what D00061 Page 25 Ketcham Bruce - Hall Kenna 6-7-05.TXT 1 products were sold to the customers? 2 A. No, not specifically, other than the fact that 3 the heading at the top says Y,Brake Plant." 4 Q. Does the brake plant refer to the Rockwell 5 brake plant? 6 A. Well, adjacent to that it says, "Rockwell 7 Standard company Brake Plant." 8 Q. if you turn to the second page, about 9 two-thirds of the way down there's a listing for IHC. 10 A. correct. 11 Q. Do you have any association with the initials 12 IHC? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. what do they stand for? 15 A. international Harvester Company. 16 Q. There's also entries for other vehicle 17 manufacturers identified both in plaintiffs' 18 interrogatories and in the deposition notices. If you 19 follow along with me, there's GM, Oshkosh, Kenworth, 20 Ford, Peteroilt. 21 Does the information on the spreadsheet 22 represent sales to those companies? 23 MR. KEELE: objection, vague. Sales of what? 24 MS. GROSS: sales of parts, Rockwell standard 25 parts. 00062 1 MR. KEELE: Same objection. 2 THE WITNESS: It appears to be sales data. 3 BY MS. gross: 4 Q. Is there any way for you to use this document 5 and trace back what was sold to the companies that I 6 just identified? 7 A. No. 8 Q. How would you go about trying to figure out 9 what products are represented in this sales analysis? 10 A. I don't believe that there is any way. You'd 11 have to identify what brake plant that you're talking 12 about here, but going beyond the plant, there's no way 13 to ascertain exactly what parts were sold. 14 Q. is there any way to identify the brake plant on 15 this document? 16 A. Not that I know of. 17 Q. Let's turn to the person most knowledgeable 18 portion of the deposition notice. 19 Actually, before we do that, for categories of 20 information No. 4, 7, 9 and then I guess 10 through 15, 21 my understanding is that the law firm of Goodwin 22 Procter maintains those documents. 23 Do I have that right? 24 A. The numbers -- 25 MR. KEELE: Dust to repeat, if I may, Counsel, 000063 1 4, 7, 9 and 10 through 15; correct? 2 MS. GROSS: Yes. 3 THE WITNESS: To the best of my knowledge. 4 MS. GROSS: i'll just state for the record that 5 our investigator appeared at the Goodwin Procter law 6 offices -- I think it was last week -- and we are in 7 the process of having those records copied. So they're 8 not available at this time to examine Mr. Ketcham 9 regarding, and we'll reserve our right to redepose 10 Mr. Ketcnam if necessary once we obtain copies of the 11 documents. Page 26 Ketcham Bruce - Hall Kenna 6-7-05.TXT 12 MR. KEELE: we'll certainly oppose that. The 13 documents were made available, and you could have had 14 them here to examine him today on those documents. 15 MS. gross: I don't believe that's true, 16 according to the court order. 17 MR. KEELE: our record has been made, Counsel. 18 BY MS. GROSS: 19 Q. Let's turn to the person most knowledgeable 20 portion of the deposition notice. 21 If you would take a minute to review pages 5 22 and 6. Let me know if there are any categories of 23 information that you're not -- strike that. 24 Let me know what categories of information you 25 are being produced as the person most knowledgeable 000064 1 for. 2 A. In general, I would say all of them. 3 Q. can you explain to me your job duties that were 4 related to defendant's document retention policy? 5 A. The retention policy was something that I and 6 my people were -- knew about during the normal course 7 of business. It is a document that occasionally would 8 come up during litigation searches for documents. I'm 9 familiar with looking at documents that have been 10 stored in accordance with the record retention policy, 11 those types of... 12 Q. sitting here today, you can't tell me what the 13 policy is, can you? 14 A. No, beyond what I had previously said in 15 general. 16 Q. other than the customer list, the engineering 17 drawings, the bills of lading, what other documents, 18 historical documents, does Rockwell maintain related to 19 its heavy-duty truck business? 20 A. I don't think that I can answer that in its 21 entirety without having access or being shown the 22 retention policy. 23 However, it would, in general, encompass all 24 the functions of the business. Be it sales, marketing, 25 finance, human resources, and all the typical types of 00065 1 major business functions that a manufacturing company 2 would have. 3 Q. can you tell me today who is the corporate 4 custodian of records at Rockwell? 5 A. I believe that's Donna Repka. 6 Q. where is she located? 7 A. in Troy, Michigan. 8 Q. Do you know who held that position prior to 9 Donna Repka? 10 A. No. 11 Q. Do you know, when you arrived at Rockwell in 12 1978, who the custodian of records was? 13 A. I'm not certain. It may have been her. 14 Q. This morning you wrote down a list of, I 15 believe, 13 manufacturing plants; is that correct? 16 A. I made notation of 14. 17 Q. Did any of those plants manufacture axles? 18 A. May I see the list? 19 Yes. 20 - Q. which plants, if you know? 21 A. Winchester. And this was as of 1978 which was 22 your request earlier. Winchester, Newcastle, Newark, Page 27 Ketcham Bruce - Hall Kenna 6-7-05.TXT 23 Marysville. 24 Q. What do the other plants manufacture? 25 A. Oshkosh. 000066 1 Q. what other kinds of products were manufactured 2 by the remaining plants? 3 A. There are forging plants. There are drive-line 4 plants. 5 Q. Can you say that again? 6 A. Drive-line plants. And there are brake'plants 7 and spring plants. 8 Q. The axle plants, did they include brake 9 assemblies in the axles, if you know? 10 A. sometimes they may have been shipped with brake 11 assemblies attached, not in all cases. 12 Q. Can you tell me what percentage of Rockwell 13 axles contained brake assemblies during the relevant 14 time period? Is there any way for you to know? 15 A. That were shipped with brake assemblies on 16 them? 17 Q. Yes. 18 A. No. 19 Q. Can you tell me if it was 50/50 or 20 predominantly the axles had brake assemblies on them? 21 A. It varied by -- in general, it varied by plant 22 and it varied by customer, at least during my period of 23 time that I have a recollection of. 24 oh, there's one other type off plant, axle 25 plant. It would be Kenton, also. 000067 1 Q. Is there any way for you to describe or testify 2 regarding which customers purchased axles with brake 3 assemblies and which did not? 4 A. In generalities I could, again, for the period 5 I'm familiar with. 6 Q. How would you delineate the customers that 7 purchased axles with brake assemblies and those 8 without? 9 A. You're talking about, say, on-highway 10 customers? 11 Q. Yes. 12 A. Either truck or truck tractors, typically the 13 larger OEMs would buy axles and brakes separately and 14 that they would install the brake assemblies in their 15 manufacturing plants. Typically, small OEMs would 16 order axles with brake assemblies and sometimes hubs 17 and drums on them as a complete set. 18 Q. when you state larger OEMs, who are you 19 referring to? 20 A. Are you talking about identified by name? 21 Q. Yes. What companies are you referring to? 22 A. The major trucking and truck tractor 23 manufacturers in North America, such as -- at that 24 period of time -- because some of these have changed 25 names and gone out of business and things -- 000068 1 Q. When you say "that period of time," what are 2 you referring to? 3 A. I'm referring to the relevant -- 19 -- 4 Q. '78 when you started? 5 A. Right, till 1990. 6 Q. okay. 7 A. The International Harvester or Navistar, the Page 28 Ketcham Bruce - Hall Kenna 6-7-05.txt 8 Ford, General Motors, Mack. I'm sure there's other 9 ones I've left out. 10 Q. Freight!iner corporation? 11 A. Freight!iner, yes. 12 Q. That would be a major -- 13 A. correct. 14 Q. -- OEM? 15 A. correct. 16 Q. That only bought the axles from Rockwell 17 without the brake assemblies? Is that your testimony? 18 A. No, that's not my testimony. 19 MR. osthimer: objection to form. 20 MS. GROSS: Then I need to clarify this. 21 BY MS. GROSS: 22 Q. I thought you testified that the larger OEMs 23 bought axles -- 24 A. Typically bought axles. 25 Q. Without the brake assembly included? 000069 1 A. Correct. Correct. I can't say that was in 2 every single case or not in every case and it was the 3 axles that Rockwell sold to them because, obviously, 4 they bought axles from other suppliers, also. 5 Q. Right. 6 Well, I'm interested in what your knowledge is 7 regarding the Rockwell axles that were sold. 8 A. Correct. Correct. 9 Q. So the list of larger OEMs that you gave me was 10 the list that -- from your background and information, 11 the list of OEMs that would have bought axles 12 separately from the brake assemblies was International, 13 Ford, GM, Mack, Freightliner; is that correct? 14 A. Yes, typically. And there may be other ones, 15 too, but typically. 16 Q. Then you stated that the smaller companies 17 bought axles complete with brake assemblies? 18 A. Typically* 19 Q. And what are you basing this information on? 20 A. Based upon my knowledge of being there. I've 21 been in the plants, so I've seen what was produced. 22 22 years' worth of experience in the company. 23 Q. And the smaller -- when you say "smaller 24 companies," who are you referring to? 25 A. The smaller vehicle manufacturers that might 000070 1 produce 100 or 200 vehicles a year. 2 Q. Any company come to mind? 3 A. Yeah. I can't attach a name to that, but it 4 could have been, oh, fire truck manufacturers or mixer 5 companies or something like that as opposed to what we 6 talked about as being the larger manufacturers that 7 might produce thousands or tens of thousands of 8 vehicles in a given year for the on-highway, heavy-duty 9 market. 10 Q. if I wanted to verify the sales of axles to any 11 of the major OEMs that you listed, how would I go about 12 doing that from information available at Rockwell? 13 A. Verify the sales of axles? 14 Q. Yes, without brake assemblies, to the major 15 companies that you listed. How would I go about 16 verifying that the axles were sold without brake 17 assemblies? 18 A. I don't know. Page 29 Ketcham Bruce - Hall Kenna 6-7-05.TXT 19 Q. So there's no information available, to your 20 knowledge, at Rockwell that would determine whether or 21 not these larger OEM customers purchased their axles 22 with or without brakes? 23 A. I can't think of anything as I sit here today. 24 Q. The brake plants that you mentioned, what kinds 25 of products were they manufacturing? 00071 1 A. They manufactured, in general, brake shoes, 2 brake assemblies of various designs for various 3 markets. 4 Q. Did the brake shoes that were manufactured at 5 the brake plants get sold with linings? 6 A. some of them did. 7 Q. Did the brake plants manufacture the linings? 8 A. During what period of time? 9 Q. The '70 to '90 time period. 10 A. one brake plant manufactured linings beginning 11 in 1985. 12 Q. Were the brake linings asbestos-containing 13 linings? 14 A. That that plant manufactured? 15 Q. Yes. 16 A. No. 17 Q. Can you tell me where the brake plants that 18 manufactured the shoes and the brake assemblies 19 purchased their brake linings during the time period 20 relevant here? 21 A. They purchased them from lining suppliers. 22 Q. Which lining suppliers? 23 A. We may have listed them in an interrogatory 24 response at some point in time, which is probably a 25 better response than X can get from my memory. 00072 1 MS. GROSS: Let's go off the record. 2 Coff the record.) 3 MS. GROSS: Back on the record. 4 BY MS. GROSS: 5 Q. Do you know who Rockwell purchased 6 asbestos-containing brake linings from during the 1970s 7 and 1990s? There's no information in the 8 interrogatories that I reviewed. 9 Do you want to go off the record? 10 MR. KEELE: Letrs go off the record. 11 (off the record.) 12 (Lunch recess taken.) 13 MS. GROSS: Back on the record. 14 I'll mark this as plaintiffs' next. I'm 15 marking Defendant Rockwell International Corporation's 16 Responses to Plaintiffs' standard Interrogatories to 17 Friction Defendants in the Callaway case from 1988. 18 (Plaintiffs' Exhibit No. 8 marked for 19 identification.) 20 BY MS. GROSS: 21 Q. I believe this is what you're referring to as 22 far as response to interrogatory No. 11 which 23 identifies the source of brake linings in Rockwell 24 brake assemblies; is that correct? 25 For the record, it says that Rockwell's brake 00073 1 assemblies that have incorporated asbestos-containing 2 linings have been marketed under various names. For 3 these products, Rockwell has from time to time used Page 30 Ketcham Bruce - Hall Kenna 6-7-05.TXT 4 linings manufactured by Abex, Raymark, Bendix. There's 5 a list of linings. 6 Is that the discovery that you're referring to? 7 A. I don't know if this is the particular 8 discovery that I was referring to, but this is a more 9 complete list of the lining manufacturers than I could 10 remember. 11 Q. is there any way for you to tell me, from your 12 work experience at Rockwell, which of these brake 13 linings were used by Rockwell more thanothers? 14 A. No, I don't believe so. I can't judge that. 15 Q. That information is crucial for this case. 16 Who at Rockwell can provide that information? 17 A. I don't know. I don't know if it's 18 discoverable, able to be found. 19 MR. KEELE: Excuse me. 20 Can you read the question back, please? 21 (Record read by the Reporter.) 22 MR. KEELE: Thank you. 23 BY MS. GROSS: 24 Q. Do you know if there are documents available 25 that describe or document Rockwell's purchases of brake 00074 1 linings between 1970 and 1990? 2 A. Only to the extent that there might have been 3 something at Goodwin Procter. 4 Q. Was there a purchasing department at Rockwell 5 between 1970 and 1990? 6 A. There were purchasing departments during part 7 of that period of time. As I had explained, there was 8 purchasing departments in the various plants and then a 9 centralized purchasing department. 10 Q. Do you know who Robert Mathers is? 11 A. Yes, I do. 12 Q. Is he still employed by Rockwell? 13 A. No, he is not. 14 Q. When was the last time you saw him? 15 A. in 1993. 16 Q. Do you know if he's still alive? 17 A. Yes, I do. 18 Q. Do you know where he lives? 19 A. Yes, I do. 20 Q. Where does he live? 21 A. He lives in Florida. 22 Q. Can you give me any more detailed information 23 about wl ire in Florida? 24 A. Not as I sit here, no, I can't. 25 Q. Do you have that information available to you? 3075 1 A. Yes, I do. 2 Q. Can you tell me about how old Mr. Mathers is 3 today? 4 A. I would estimate 78 or 79. 5 Q. Prior to this deposition today, did you search 6 for any 7 brake T 8 A. No, not for this -- in preparation for this 9 deposit >n. 10 Q. Did you talk to anybody today, other than your 11 attorne; ;, regarding who supplied brake linings to 12 Rockwel 13 A. No, I have not. 14 Q. of the manufacturing plants that you Page 31 Ketcham Bruce - Hall Kenna 6-7-05.TXT 15 identified, which ones are -- strike that. 16 of the plants that you -- of the manufacturing 17 plants that you identified, which ones are still 18 manufacturing brake assemblies? 19 A. The brake plants? 20 Q. Yes. 21 A. Tilbury I believe is the only one. 22 Q. can you tell me generally what decade the other 23 ones stopped manufacturing brakes? 24 A. in one of the interrogatories -- 25 Q. You lay out the dates? 000076 1 A. There are dates someplace. 2 Q. i'll check on that. 3 MS. ROSS: I think that was No. 15. 4 MS. GROSS: In the other ones? 5 MS. ROSS: Yeah. 6 MS. GROSS: which I don't think I brought down, 7 but I'll get them later. 8 BY MS. GROSS: 9 Q. On the break, I took a look at some of the 10 documents that were copied last week at Goodwin 11 Procter. One of them is a slide presentation regarding 12 Q and Q Plus Brakes. 13 Take a minute and look at the slide 14 presentation. I only have one copy. 15 A. (Witness complying.) 16 Q. Are you familiar with that slide presentation? 17 Have you seen it before? 18 A. Yes, I have. 19 Q. why don't we mark this and then I'll get copies 20 made. 21 (Plaintiffs' Exhibit No. 9 marked for 22 Identification.) 23 BY MS. GROSS: ' 24 Q. When you arrived, sir, in 1978, I believe you 25 testified that Rockwell was manufacturing axles, some 000077 1 of which contained brake assemblies, some did not, and 2 brake assemblies as well; is that correct? 3 A. And other products, yes. 4 Q. And other products. 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. I want to focus in on the brake assemblies and 7 the axles. 8 Can you tell me which product was the greater 9 part of Rockwell's business? 10 MR. KEELE: objection, vague as to time. 11 THE WITNESS: I presume that you're referring 12 to the automotive businesses, and I presume that you're 13 referring to -- 14 BY MS. GROSS: 15 Q. The heavy duty. 16 A. -- the heavy-duty side of that business. 17 Q. correct. That's my interest. And the time 18 period is -- I don't know if you can testify earlier 19 than '78 -- you probably can't -- but '78 to '90. 20 A. In general terms, the -- I'm sorry. Could you 21 ask the question again? 22 Q. I want to know, as between the axle 23 manufacturing part of the business and the brake part 24 of the business, which constituted the greater part of 25 Rockwell's business. Page 32 Ketcham Bruce - Hall Kenna 6-7-05.TXT 00078 1 mr. keele: same objection. 2 THE WITNESS: as far as dollar volume 3 sales-type thing? 4 MS. GROSS: Yes. 5 THE WITNESS: Axles. 6 BY MS. GROSS: 7 Q. Do you know if that was true during the whole 8 time period or did that change at some time period? 9 A. That would have been true throughout the entire 10 time period. 11 Q. Can you tell me what the Q and Q Plus Brake 12 Series are? 13 A. Q Brakes and Q Plus Brakes are cam brakes or 14 air-actuated cam brakes. 15 Q. Can you tell me when Rockwell started 16 manufacturing those? 17 A. Approximately, I believe, the Q was in the 18 early '70s, perhaps a little bit earlier than that. 19 And the Q Plus came in to being -- could have been in 20 the late '80s or early '90s, to my recollection. 21 Q. on the third page of the slide series, it 22 states that Rockwell is a major truck tractor and 23 trailer industry supplier in North America of a variety 24 of products, and brakes is No. 1 on the list. 25 Let me show that to you. D00079 1 A. Brakes is one of the ones on the list. 2 Q. can you tell me what "major supplier" means in 3 terms of a rank in the business? 4 MR. KEELE: objection. Foundation. 5 THE WITNESS: as far as brakes and air brakes 6 on heavy vehicles, you know, they were a major 7 supplier. There were only a couple other significant 8 competitors at that point in time. 9 BY MS. GROSS: 10 Q. "At that point" meaning the early '70s or 1978 11 or -- 12 A. well, generally during the '70s and '80s that 13 I'm aware of, the late '70s and early '80s. My period 14 of time when I was there. 15 Q. Late '70s through the -- 16 A. Through '90, which is the relevant time period. 17 Q. And wno were the -- I believe you said there 18 were two other -- only two other major competitors. 19 A. The ones that I can think of off the top of my 20 head would be Eaton Corporation and Dana as far as, you 21 know, axles and brakes. And there was some competition 22 in the other areas, too. As I said before, some of 23 these product lines came into being during the time 24 period that we're speaking of. 25 Q. which products? 000080 1 A. The clutches, transmissions and anti-lock 2 systems. 3 Q. so the brakes that are part of that list on the 4 exhibit that you're looking at, are those brake 5 assemblies with linings or without linings, if you 6 know? 7 A. I believe it's referring -- I'm sorry. Could 8 you ask the question again? 9 Q. The document that you're reviewing lists brakes 10 as one of the products that Rockwell was a major Page 33 Ketcham Bruce - Hall Kenna 6-7-05.TXT 11 supplier of during the relevant time period. 12 Did those brakes contain linings or were they 13 without linings? 14 A. "Brakes" I think here is the generic brakes, 15 that it could be brake assemblies, it could be some 16 foundation brake components, it could be lined shoes, 17 it could be unlined shoes. It was the collective 18 brakes, all of the brake components that get assembled 19 at the wheel ends. 20 Q. So for all of those products, Rockwell is 21 holding itself out as a major supplier? 22 A. Yes. They were a major supplier. 23 Q. And the only other competitors that you can 24 recall from that time period would be Eaton and Dana? 25 A. Major competitors in the heavy-duty air brake D00081 1 business, yes. 2 Q. On the next page, it says that Rockwell is the 3 leading foundation air brake supplier. Three out of 4 four vehicles stop with Rockwell brakes. Rockwell's 5 strength lies at both the end user and OEM levels. 6 I have some questions about the other ones. 7 What is a foundation air brake? 8 A. A foundation air brake is sort of what I was 9 trying to describe earlier. It's all the brake 10 components at the wheel end. It consists of the brake 11 shoes, the springs, the rollers, the anchor pins, the 12 cam shafts, the slack adjustors, everything that's 13 related to the brake product at the wheel end. 14 Q. The claim three out of four vehicles stop with 15 Rockwell brakes, does the "vehicles" refer to 16 passenger cars or are we talking about the heavy-duty 17 truck business? 18 MR. KEELE: Let me object, again, on foundation 19 grounds. Also, I'm not sure if this document is one 20 that is even relevant given there's been no foundation 21 as to the date of the document or when these statements 22 were applicable and how that relates to this 1978 to 23 1990 time period. 24 MS. gross: you can go ahead and answer the 25 question. 000082 1 THE WITNESS: Based upon what's on the document 2 here, we're talking about foundation air brakes. All 3 right? And foundation air brakes are used on heavy, 4 on-highway vehicles. 5 BY MS. GROSS: 6 Q. You have seen that document before; correct? 7 A. Yes, I have. 8 Q. Have you seen it during your employment at 9 Rockwell? 10 A. I don't recall that I saw it during my 11 employment with Rockwell. 12 Q. do you recall where you saw it? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. where? 15 A. counsel showed it to me. 16 Q. can you tell me, from your review of the 17 document, when the slide presentation was put together? 18 I don't see it on here, actually. So do you have any 19 information? 20 A. It would be my best estimate that it would be 21 in 1991. Page 34 Ketcham Bruce - Hall Kenna 6-7-05.TXT 22 Q. Do you know what division or department in 23 Rockwell generated this document? 24 A. I do not. 25 Q. And by that I mean the slide presentation. 000083 1 We're referring to a document that's actually a 2 representation of the slide presentation. 3 A. I do not. 4 Q. Does Rockwell have an advertising andmarketing 5 division, if you know? 6 A. They have advertising and marketing functions, 7 yes. 8 Q. Who was in charge of that when you arrived at 9 Rockwell? 10 A. I don't know. I can't recall. 11 Q. Can you remember anybody that held that 12 position during the time you worked for Rockwell? 13 A. Yes. . 14 Q. who do you recall? 15 A. Advertising or communications would have been 16 Michael Pennington. And I can't recall who was there 17 prior to him. 18 Q. Is he still with the company? 19 A. To the best of my knowledge. 20 Q. There's a statement on page 5 of the 21 presentation that Rockwell's overall market share 22 exceeds 50 percent. This is related to the air brake 23 market position for trailers. 24 During the time period that you worked for 25 Rockwell, do you have any information regarding 000084 1 Rockwell's market share? 2 A. No, I do not. 3 Q. Can you tell me if it exceeded 50percent or 4 was less than 50 percent during the 1970 to 1990 time 5 period? 6 A. I can't say whether it was over or less than. 7 we were a substantial -- a major supplier into the 8 market. 9 Q. That's what I was going to ask. 10 Is there any reason for you to believe that 11 during the 1970 to 1990 time period, Rockwell's 12 position was any less than 50 percent? 13 A. It may have been. 14 Q. During the time period that you worked for 15 Rockwell, was it a business that was expanding its 16 sales or contracting, if you know? 17 A. I think that varied by year and the market, the 18 conditions and the market share they had by year. 19 There were substantial periods of time during the 1980s 20 where at least the new vehicle truck market was 21 severely depressed. 22 Q. Did that change at some point? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. When did it change, if you know? 25 A. As I recall, the market became -- the new 000085 1 vehicle market, new heavy vehicle market, became 2 depressed in about 1981 or '82 and that it gradually 3 recovered, and I don't recall whether it recovered back 4 to 1980 levels, whether it was by the end of the decade 5 or whether it was into the 1990s. 6 Q. The overall market share of 50 percent, did Page 35 Ketcham Bruce - Hall Kenna 6-7-05.TXT 7 that apply to OEMs or was that also for replacement 8 parts as well? 9 MR. KEELE: Same objection. Foundation. 10 MS. gross: if you know. 11 THE WITNESS: can I see the document? 12 MR. KEELE: Also vague as to time. 13 THE WITNESS: Going with this document and how 14 I would interpret what is on this document, I would say 15 that it's pertaining to the OEM market share, to the 16 new vehicle market share. * 17 BY MS. GROSS: 18 Q. And there's, I believe, a list that starts -- 19 A. And this particular one here (indicating) talks 20 about the trailer axles. 21 Q. And there's a list on the bottom of that page; 22 correct? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. And I believe there's a column that says 25 "standard" and there's a column that says "option." 00086 1 A. Correct. 2 Q. Can you tell me what those refer to? 3 MR. KEELE: Same objections. Foundation. 4 ms. gross: if you know. 5 THE WITNESS: To the best of my knowledge, it 6 would refer to the databook position at the various 7 OEMs, in this case trailer OEMs. 8 BY MS. GROSS: 9 Q. What does"databookposition" mean? 10 A. That is set up to determine whether you are 11 standard equipment on a particular OEM's vehicles or 12 whether you are offered as a special order or as an 13 optional supplier to that particular OEM. 14 Q. Let me take a lookat that. 15 On page 4 of the exhibit, it has a list of 16 OEMs, and it states that Rockwell has standard databook 17 release position with all OEMs but one. 18 Can you take a look at that and tell me what 19 that means? 20 MR. KEELE: Let me interpose an objection again 21 as to foundation, counsel, these go to the form, and I 22 just want to make sure you understand the nature of my 23 objections. 24 Not only have you failed to establish that this 25 witness has or should have knowledge of the contents of 00087 1 this document, but you've also failed to make a 2 connection between the statements and statistics and 3 data in this document to the relevant time period, so 4 with that, I object to the foundation of the question 5 and the form of the question. 6 MS. GROSS: I'll just state for the record that 7 I have been asking the witness, who is presented here 8 today as the person most knowledgeable on various 9 categories of information, to testify from his own 10 personal knowledge regarding the information contained 11 in the document. If he didn't have that information, 12 I've given him the opportunity to state he does not. 13 With that, you can go ahead and answer the 14 question. 15 MR. KEELE: Again, just -- and I don't want to 16 belabor this, but to tne extent you're attempting to 17 use this document to make statements or reach Page 36 Ketcham Bruce - Hall Kenna 6-7-05.TXT 18 conclusions about Rockwell's position in the market 19 when this document clearly, as the witness has 20 testified, is after the relevant time period is 21 improper, and you haven't related anything in this 22 document to the relevant time period. 23 MS. GROSS: You can go ahead and answer, if you 24 know. 25 THE WITNESS: obviously, as I said, I didn't D00088 1 know who generated this particular document. I don't 2 have personal knowledge of the document, and the 3 replies that I'm giving, the responses I'm giving are 4 based upon my years of experience with Rockwell in the 5 interpretation of this data. 6 BY MS. GROSS: 7 Q. Correct. 8 My understanding is you're giving us your best 9 recollection or an estimate here today. You're not 10 guessing. I don't want you to guess. 11 A. Right. 12 Q. You can go ahead, if you remember the question. 13 A. What was thelastquestion? 14 (Record read by the Reporter.) 15 THE WITNESS: It's a similar comment to what I 16 made on the trailer OEMs, that it's standard position 17 in their databook and that's how the vehicles would 18 typically be built, if you have an option, the 19 customers that order from the OEMs have an option, and 20 somebody else has standard databook position other than 21 Rockwell. 22 BY M5. GROSS: 23 Q. which vehicles from that list was Rockwell 24 standard on? 25 We only have one copy of the exhibit, just for D00089 1 the record. So I'm asking you to just read into the 2 record, if you would, which vehicles Rockwell had the 3 standard databook position on. 4 MR. KEELE: You're asking him to read the 5 exhibit? 6 MS. GROSS: Yes. 7 THE WITNESS: If I can, I'll read the entire 8 page, okay, just to make sure that it's clear. 9 f,Rockwell International" is the first line. "Q 10 and Q plus Series Brakes" is the second line. 11 "Rockwell Air Brake" is the third line. "Market 12 Position" is the fourth line. "Truck/tractor" is the 13 next line. And it goes on to say that Rockwell has 14 standard databook release position with all OEMs but 15 one. It lists OEMs. And these OEMs have -- are listed 16 as standard databook position on this sheet. Ford, 17 GMC, Freightliner, Navistar, Mack, and Volvo. And on 18 option, it's shown as Kenworth and peterbilt. 19 BY MS. GROSS: 20 Q. As far as options go, from your experience of 21 working at Rockwell and your testimony here today, do 22 you know of other options other than Eaton and Dana? 23 A. Those are the ones that come to mind. There 24 may have been other ones during the course of the 25 relevant time period. 000090 1 Q. During the time period that you worked for 2 Rockwell, have you seen these kinds of business Page 37 Ketcham Bruce - Hall Kenna 6-7-05.txt 3 analyses or business evaluations before? 4 A. I may have. I don't recall. 5 Q. what department or division at Rockwell 6 international would be responsible for generating these 7 kinds of market or business analyses? 8 A. Typically, that would be coming out of the 9 business unit that existed at the particular time 10 period. 11 Q. Can you describe -- when you say "business 12 unit," what do you mean? ' 13 A. In general terms, it could be the brake 14 business unit or the axle business unit or the 15 transmission business unit, the major product lines. 16 And during the course of the time period that we're 17 talking about here, various business units were 18 created, combined, uncombined and so forth. 19 Q. You stated earlier that you believe that the 20 axle part of Rockwell's business was the larger part of 21 the business than the brake business. 22 Do I have that right? 23 A. From a dollar-volume standpoint? 24 Q. Yes. 25 A. Yes, that's correct. 00091 1 Q. So the brakes that are talked about in this 2 slide presentation, are they attached to axles or are 3 they, for lack of a better word, standalone items; 4 they're brakes by themselves? 5 MR. KEELE: Same objections. 6 BY MS. GROSS: 7 Q. Does that make sense to you? 8 MR. KEELE: Foundation. 9 THE WITNESS: NO. 10 BY MS. GROSS: 11 Q. The brakes that are referred to in this 12 document, are they attached to an axle? 13 MR. KEELE: objection. Foundation. 14 MS. GROSS: If you know. 15 THE WITNESS: ultimately, yes. 16 BY MS. GROSS: 17 Q. So this document, if you know, does it 18 memorialize the sale of just tne brake components or 19 just the brakes and the axles to the OEMs? 20 MR. KEELE: Same objections as I communicated 21 earlier and explained earlier. Foundation. 22 MS. GROSS: If you know, if you don't know, 23 that's fine.. 24 THE WITNESS: Based upon looking at the exhibit 25 that we're talking about here, we're talking about 00092 1 brakes and specifically air brakes. Now, it does not 2 include axles anywhere in that presentation. 3 BY MS. GROSS: 4 Q. Can you tell me Rockwell's market position as 5 far as axles during the relevant time period? 6 A. They were a major supplier. 7 Q. And when you say "major," they were in the -- 8 what was their market share, if you know? 9 A. I'm sure it changed over time, and Idon't know 10 specifically what their market share was. 11 Q. Who employed at Rockwell would have that 12 information? surely somebody must know? 13 A. During the relevant time period? Page 38 Ketcham Bruce - Hall Kerina 6-7-05.TXT 14 Q. Yes. 15 A. There may be. as I sit here, I do not know. 16 Q. Can you tell me if Rockwell was a major 17 supplier of brakes for use as replacement parts for 18 trucks or tractor trailers during the relevant time 19 period? 20 A. ''Brakes" being...? 21 Q. The same that we're discussing as part of the 22 slide presentation, the same product line. 23 A. The product that was sold for replacement parts 24 is not the same assembly that is sold for new vehicle 25 sales. 00093 1 Q. Describe the difference in the products. 2 A. Replacement parts are the component parts that 3 go into the brake assembly that is sold for a new 4 vehicle so that if somebody wanted to repair, service 5 or replace some of the components of the original 6 assembly, they would order those -- a particular part 7 that they wanted. If they needed to replace a spring 8 off of here, they would order a spring or a kit that 9 included a spring. If they needed a roller, they would 10 order a roller or a kit that contained a roller. 11 Q. Did Rockwell supply brake linings as 12 replacement parts for the brakes it sold to the OEMs? 13 A. Yes, they did. 14 Q. Can you tell me who manufactured the linings 15 that Rockwell sold as replacement linings during the 16 1970s to 1990s? 17 A. Those linings would have been manufactured by 18 the same lining suppliers that were supplying the 19 original equipment linings. 20 Q. And sitting here today, can you tell me who 21 were the top three suppliers of linings during the 22 1970s to 1990 time period? 23 A. I don't think I could, no. 24 Q. So you can't tell me if Rockwell had an 25 agreement to purchase any more linings from one 00094 1 manufacturer than another? 2 A. No. 3 Q. Can you tell me if there's -- how I would find 4 that information out through somebody at Rockwell? 5 A. I don't know. You would be talking about, you 6 know, purchasing, and I don't know if those records or 7 knowledge would exist. 8 Q. Who was in charge of purchasing, if you recall, 9 when you first began to work for Rockwell 10 international? 11 A. His name was Charlie Ammerman. 12 And we're talking here about the automotive 13 operations? 14 Q. Yes. 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. Is Mr. Ammerman still employed by Rockwell? 17 A. No, he is not. 18 Q. Have you seen him in the last five years? 19 A. No, Ihave not. 20 Q. Do you know if he's alive or not? 21 A. No, I do not. 22 Q. How old is he? 23 A. I don't know. 24 Q. When was the last time you saw him? Page 39 Ketcham Bruce - Hall Kenna 6-7-05.TXT 25 A. Maybe the late 1980s. 1095 1 Q. Was that in Troy, Michigan? 2 A. Yes, it was. 3 Q. Do you have any information regarding where he 4 lived? 5 A. Well, at some point in time, he lived in that 6 vicinity 7 Q. Can you spell his name? 8 A. Not with absolute certainty. 9 Q. Give it your best shot. 10 A. A-m-m-e-r-m-a-n. 11 Q. Who replaced him in purchasing, if you know? 12 A. I believe that was Daryl white. 13 Q. When was the last time you saw him? 14 A. Maybe in the mid-1990s. 15 Q. Do you know if Mr. White is still employed by 16 Rockwell' 17 A. He is not. 18 Q. Do you know if Mr. white is still alive? 19 A. I do not. 20 Q. where did you last see him? Was that in Troy 21 as well? 22 A. Yes, it was. 23 Q. Do you have any idea how old he would be today? 24 A. No. 25 000096 Q. who was the next person who was in charge of 1 purchasing at Rockwell who would have information, of 2 course, about the brake linings? That's what I'm going 3 after, the source of brake linings. 4 A. The next one that I can recall is Craig Pryor. 5 Q. Can you spell his last name? 6 A. Again, this is my best recollection. 7 P-r-y-o-r. 8 Q. When was the last time you saw Mr. Pryor? 9 A. In the 1990s, late 1990s. 10 Q. Do you know -- is Mr. Pryor still employed by 11 Rockwel1? 12 A. I m not certain. 13 Q. Again, did you see Mr. Pryor in Troy, Michigan? 14 A. That's correct. 15 Q. Any sense of his age? 16 A. Mid to late 50s. 17 Q. what other brakes besides the Q Brakes that 18 were ai r brakes did Rockwell manufacture? 19 A. During the relevant time period, there would 20 have been air disk brakes and there would have been 21 stopmaster brakes, Those are the ones that come to my 22 recollection. 23 Q. Actually, we can -- I'd like to read into the 24 record these other brakes perhaps to refresh your 25 recollection. 00097 1 Holdmaster, are you familiar or do you have any 2 association with that line of brakes? 3 A. Could I see the document? 4 Q. Sure. 5 MR. KEELE: You're now reading from Exhibit 8, 6 response to interrogatory No. 11; correct? 7 THE WITNESS: I'm not totally familiar with 8 Holdmaster, but the description there describes them as 9 a mechanical disk brake as opposed to an air disk Page 40 Ketcham Bruce - Hall Kenna 6-7-05.TXT 10 brake. The Duramaster was the air disk brake. So I 11 don't believe that the Holdmaster was an air brake. 12 BY MS. GROSS: 13 Q. So the stopmaster, the Holdmaster, the 14 Duramaster. Any other kinds of brakes that Rockwell 15 manufactured during the relevant time period? 16 A. Rockwell manufactured many brakes during the 17 time period, but those were the air brakes that I had 18 described for you earlier. 19 Q. what other kinds of brakes, other than the air 20 brakes, did Rockwell manufacture during the relevant 21 time period? 22 A. For use on heavy on-highway vehicles? 23 Q. Yes. 24 A. There were mechanical brakes that were used as 25 parking -- drive-line parking brakes on some 00098 1 medium-duty vehicles. 2 Q. wnat's a mechanical brake as opposed to an air 3 brake? 4 A. One that might -- an air brake is one that's 5 actuated by air. A mechanical brake would be one that 6 would be actuated by a lever. 7 Q. And when you say a "lever," do you mean like a 8 parking brake lever situation?9 A. Exactly. 10 Q. or would that be a drum brake? 11 A. Well, what I'm thinking of is a drum brake, and 12 the drum is attached to the drive line of a medium-duty 13 vehicle and is used as a mechanical parking brake as 14 opposed to all of the other brakes that werve been 15 talking about which are wheel-end brakes. 16 Q. can you tell me which of the brakes that we've 17 just identified that were manufactured by Rockwell 18 during the relevant time period contained asbestos 19 components, contained asbestos-containing components? 20 A. Of the Q, Q Plus, air disk and stopmaster 21 brakes? 22 Q. Sure. 23 A. All of them at one time or another contained 24 some asbestos components. 25 Q. Which components in those brake linings had 000099 1 asbestos in them? 2 A. The -- during certain years, during the 3 relevant time period, the stopmaster, the Q -- well, I 4 should really maybe clarify something here. I'm not 5 quite sure when the Q plus came in, was introduced, and 6 that may or may not have had asbestos linings on them. 7 Q. So you initially said you thought they were 8 introduced in the 1970s, but you're not sure? 9 A. No. The Q Plus I said was introduced in the 10 1980s. The Q was introduced in the 1970s. 11 Q. How would you find out that information, 12 whether it contained asbestos or not? 13 A. I suppose try to figure out -- the easiest 14 thing to do is figure out when the Q Plus was 15 introduced. 16 Q. And how would you do that? 17 A. There may be some advertisement literature or 18 maintenance literature that would provide a source of 19 that information. That might be a place to start to 20 determine that piece of information. Page 41 Ketcham Bruce - Hall Kenna 6-7-05.TXT 21 Q. I have some information here we can look at. 22 We were talking about what components contained 23 asbestos. 24 A. Correct. 25 Q. Which components? 000100 1 A. The brake linings on the Q and the stopmaster 2 at some point in time during the relevant time period 3 would have contained asbestos. And for a few years 4 during the relevant time period, there's a backing or 5 backer on air disk brakes that contained asbestos 6 material. The lining material or the wearable lining 7 material on the air disk brake never contained asbestos 8 material. They were always nonasbestos fibers. 9 Q. Can you tell me who supplied Rockwell with the 10 backers on the air disk brakes? 11 A. No, I can't. 12 Q. Can you tell me if Rockwell manufactured those 13 backers itself? 14 A. No. It would have -- the backing material came 15 embedded in the air disk brake pad. So it was part -- 16 it was part of the lining. 17 Q. Can you tell me who Rockwell was purchasing the 18 air disk pads from during the relevant time period? 19 A. As I sit here, no. 20 Q. How could I find out that information? 21 A. Maybe Zeida at Goodwin Procter. 22 Q. Any other components that contained asbestos? 23 Any other brake components that contained asbestos? 24 A. On the brake components, no. Those are it. 25 Q. I've asked you about the linings, other than 00101 1 what's listed in the discovery responses, that's all 2 you can tell me? 3 A. About the lining -- 4 Q. I'm sorry. The lining suppliers. 5 A. Suppliers, yes. 6 Q. And you can't tell me who or, in particular, if 7 there was one company that Rockwell purchased linings 8 from more than another? 9 A. No, I can't. 10 Q. With the air disk pads, you have no information 11 regarding who Rockwell was purchasing the pads from; is 12 that correct? 13 A. as I sit here today, I do not have that 14 information. 15 Q. Were you able to give me a date for this slide 16 presentation? 17 MR. KEELE: objection. Asked and answered. He 18 did. 19 BY MS. GROSS: 20 Q. Why don't you tell me again. 21 A. I believe it was in 1991. 22 Q. How do youknow that? 23 A. The presentation marking over here 24 (indicating). AV-91 I believe refers to the year. 25 Q. Is there any other place on the document that 00102 1 would lead you to conclude the year that it was put 2 together? 3 A. Yes. Yes. 4 Q. okay. 5 A. on the page marked "Rockwell Air Brake Market Page 42 Ketcham Bruce - Hall Kenna 6-7-05.TXT 6 Position, Trailer," it lists OEM rank fiscal year 1990. 7 There may be other items in here, if you want 8 me to keep looking. 9 Q. No. I know you're relying on the document, not 10 your personal knowledge. 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. of course, you have no idea when or how the 13 information that was compiled for use in the 14 presentation was put together? 15 A. Right. I don't know who put it together. 16 Without knowing that, I wouldn't have the other 17 information. 18 Q. Category No. 5 on the PMK notice, agreements 19 between defendant and vehicle manufacturers for the 20 supply of brakes during the relevant time period. 21 Are you the person most knowledgeable regarding 22 that category of information? 23 A. Yes, I am. 24 Q. Can you tell me, for the entities where 25 Rockwell brakes -- strike that. D00103 1 can you tell me, for the OEMs where Rockwell 2 brakes were standard, whether Rockwell had any kinds of 3 exclusive supply agreements with those OEMs? 4 A. I don't believe that there were any exclusive 5 supply agreements. 6 Q. So when a Rockwell brake is standard on a 7 vehicle, how does that come about, if you know? 8 A. There are negotiations between -- and this is 9 my understanding based upon my experience with the 10 company. There are negotiations that go on between 11 Rockwell and the various OEMs in which agreements are 12 established, and standard databook position does not 13 mean exclusive. All it does is give you what it says, 14 standard databook position, and other suppliers can 15 sell to that OEM. And if a fleet wants to have Brand X 16 brakes put onto that vehicle, as long as it's approved 17 by the vehicle manufacturer's engineering department, 18 it would be. 19 Q. So what does "standard" mean, if you know? 20 A. It means that. It means standard. 21 Q. It means if I go to -- 22 A. It means that you have that standard position, 23 that if a customer does not ask for something 24 different, that that's what would be offered to the 25 customer with Rockwell brakes. 000104 1 Now, various fleets have various preferences 2 for who they want for axles or who they want for 3 brakes. Buying a heavy truck is a little bit different 4 than buying a passenger car, and there's a lot more 5 individual specification that's done for heavy trucks 6 by the fleet buyer than a normal consumer would ever do 7 for a passenger car. 8 Q. I still don't quite understand what the 9 standard -- the significance of the "standard" is, 10 then. It means if I go into Freightliner -- well, if 11 I'm Freightliner and I want to purchase an axle, a 12 brake -- if I want to purchase a Freightliner, then the 13 Rockwell brake is standard on that equipment unless I 14 say I want another kind of brake; is that correct? 15 A. That's my belief. I'd say that if you want a 16 better explanation than that, it's probably best to Page 43 Ketcham Bruce - Hall Kenna 6-7-05.TXT 17 talk to a vehicle manufacturer. 18 Q. So it sounds to me, then, that -- well, strike 19 that. 20 Did any of your job duties involve you and 21 agreements between Rockwell and OEMs for the use of 22 Rockwell equipment as standard? 23 A. No, it did not. 24 Q. Who would have been involved in negotiating 25 those kinds of agreements? 000105 1 A. The sales and marketing department together 2 with, you know, other people supporting them. 3 Q. Have you, during the time period that you 4 worked for Rockwell, come across written agreements 5 between Rockwell and OEMs for the purposes of 6 establishing a standard brake agreement? 7 A. The agreements that are reached between 8 Rockwell and OEMs are not limited to standard brake 9 agreements. They encompassed the various products that 10 we manufacture. 11 Q. Have any of your job duties involved reviewing 12 or participating in the formation of those agreements? 13 A. No, they have not. 14 Q. Have you had an opportunity to review a typical 15 agreement between Rockwell and an OEM? 16 A. I have seen them in the past from time to time. 17 Q. what is the nature of your review of those 18 documents? 19 A. As i recall, it would usually come up in the 20 course of the type of questioning that we're -- going 21 on right now or in the investigation of particular 22 issues. 23 Q. Do you know how far back in time Rockwell 24 maintains its agreements with OEMs? . 25 A. No, I do not. 000106 1 Q. Do you know if it does maintain its agreements 2 with OEMs? 3 A. I would expect that they would maintain the 4 current agreements. As far as prior agreements, I'm 5 uncertain. 6 Q. You stated you believe that the agreements 7 between OEMs and Rockwell for standard equipment would 8 include more than brake assemblies. Did I get that 9 right? 10 A. The -- 11 (Brief interruption.) 12 BY MS. GROSS: 13 Q. I'm trying to get a sense of what kind of 14 agreements Rockwell entered into with OEMs for standard 15 equipment. 16 A. The type of agreements that I'm familiar with 17 would encompass more than just brakes. It would 18 encompass whatever portions of the product line or the 19 entire product line that Rockwell and the OEM wanted to 20 enter into an agreement for. 21 As i recall from the ones that I recollect, 22 they were for multiple product lines, it was not just 23 a single, standalone agreement for, you know, brakes 24 versus a single standalone agreement for axles and 25 stuff like that. Q00107 1 It was more of an agreement on the product Page 44 Ketcham Bruce - Ha'll Kenna 6-7-05.TXT 2 lines between companies, between the supplier and the 3 original equipment manufacturer. 4 Q. Do you have any sense of how much of Rockwell's 5 business was done through these standard agreements as 6 opposed to, you know, case-by-case, year-by-year basis? 7 A. My sense is -- and this is my belief -- that, 8 you know, with many of the major OEMs, that we had 9 agreements. 10 Q. The major OEMs would be the ones that you 11 identified earlier today? 12 A. That's the category that I'm talking about. I 13 can't say, as I sit here today, that we had agreements 14 with every single one of them or which ones we didn't 15 have agreements with, but that's the category that I'm 16 talking about. 17 Q. Do you know if, between 1970 and 1990, Rockwell 18 had any standard supply agreements with International? 19 A. I am not certain. I know that at least in the 20 initial part of that time frame, about '92 or so, their 21 primary agreement was with Dana. 22 Q. I'm sorry? 23 A. Was with Dana. 24 Q. Dana. 25 A. I shouldn't say primary agreement. I don't 00108 1 know that they really -- well, Dana was their primary 2 supplier. 3 Q. And I thought you said the initial part of that 4 period being 1992. Did I catch that right? 5 A. 1982, if I misspoke. 6 Q. And how do you know that? 7 A. Because that was a period in time in which 8 international Harvester was outsourcing some of their 9 internally manufactured parts, and it was a very large 10 piece of business and that Rockwell did not get that 11 business. So even after 20-some-odd years, it still 12 sticks in my mind. 13 Q. Was there any point in time, to the best of 14 your knowledge, that Rockwell had a standard supply 15 agreement with International? 16 A. I don't know that they had a standard supply 17 agreement. I know that Rockwell did regain some of the 18 sales to Navistar over time. 19 Q. What about Freightliner? The same question, 20 whether you're aware of any standard supply agreements 21 between Rockwell and Freightliner between 1970 and 22 1990. 23 MR. OSTHIMER: objection. Calls for 24 speculation. Lack of foundation. 25 THE WITNESS: I cannot speak to the specific 00109 1 dates. At some point in time, I know that we had some 2 agreements with Freightliner. 3 by ms. gross: 4 Q. What about General Motors? Same question. 5 A. I don't recall. 6 Q. What about Ford? 7 A. My best recollection is yes. 8 Q. Again, these are standard supply agreements - 9 strike that. 10 I'm particularly interested -- strike that. 11 is there any way for you to know whether these 12 standard supply agreements were for axles or brake Page 45 Ketcham Bruce - Hall Kenna 6-7-05.TXT 13 friction products? 14 A. I don't know as I sit here today. The 15 agreements would specify the content of what was being 16 included within that specific agreement. 17 Q. How did Rockwell distribute its service parts? 18 And I want to limit that to brake products. 19 A. During what period of time? 20 Q. This will all be the 1970 through 1990 time 21 period. 22 A. It varied. ' 23 Q. why don't you describe for me how it varied. 24 A. The service parts or aftermarket parts division 25 which I joined in Florence was established in -- it was 00110 1 really established in '73, but the business itself did 2 not start until 1976. Prior to that point in time, 3 distribution of service parts was done from the various 4 manufacturing plants to the OEMs. 5 For instance, if manufacturer OEM A wanted to 6 get service parts for brakes, they would order those 7 service parts from the manufacturing plant that was 8 supplying the original equipment parts to that OEM. 9 Prior to '76, there were also distributors, 10 warehouse distributors, independent businesses that 11 Rockwell sold some product to, including brake product. 12 They were brake distributors. And those were sold 13 through a small distribution center located within the 14 Kenton plant. 15 After Florence started, Florence took over the 16 business of shipping to distributors. Originally, it 17 was universal joint product in f76 and brake product in 18 '77. So after 1977, they took over the distribution 19 and sale of brake product to the warehouse 20 distributors. And in 1978, they took over the 21 distribution of product, including brake product, to 22 the vehicle OEMs. 23 Q. Did the distributor warehouses that you 24 described have any business relationship with Rockwell? 25 Were they Rockwell franchises or dealerships? 00111 1 A. They were an independent warehouse distributor. 2 Q. Where were they located? 3 A. Across the United States and Canada. 4 Q. Can you give me a sense of how many during the 5 1970 to 1990 time period? 6 A. It varied. 7 Q. Are you talking tens? Hundreds? 8 A. To give a relative sense, 200, 250. 9 Q. Have you seen any documents that would give you 10 a sense of the volume of sales of replacement parts 11 during the relevant time period, Rockwell's sales of 12 replacement parts? 13 A. Are you limiting it to brakes? 14 Q. Yes. 15 A. To brakes, yes. As to warehouse distributors 16 or to -- 17 Q. Let's start there. 18 A. Yes, I have. I was in that business, do I 19 recall specifically what it was, no. 20 Q. Is that information memorialized anywhere that 21 you know of? 22 A. Not that I'm aware of, unless it happens to be 23 in some of Goodwin Procter's materials. page 46 Ketcham Bruce - Hall Kenna 6-7-05.TXT 24 Q. There were the distributor warehouses? 25 A. (Witness nodding head.) 00112 1 Q. There were the sales from the manufacturing 2 plants themselves, is that correct, directly to the 3 OEMs? 4 A. Right, initially, in the beginning time 5 period, it was manufacturing plants to the OEMs and 6 from Kenton to the distributors. And then with the 7 advent of Florence, Florence took over the salesto the 8 distributors and then took on the sales to the OEMs. 9 Q. Can you tell me what percentage of the 10 replacement parts, again, limited to the brake-related 11 products, was going to the distributors or to the OEMs? 12 A. I think IYve answered that before someplace. 13 It was a low percentage, particularly when you 14 get around to sales of either lined shoes or linings. 15 Q. It was a low percentage to the distributors? 16 A. To the distributors and also to the OEMs as far 17 as aftermarket sales. 18 Q. So are we talking three percent, ten percent, 19 if you know? I don't want you to guess. 20 A. It was minuscule, really, because we were 21 buying the linings from lining suppliers and trying to 22 resell them into the market, into the aftermarket. And 23 the lining suppliers were also selling to the OEMs and 24 the lining suppliers were also selling directly to 25 the -- not only our warehouse distributors but other D00113 1 distributors that they had throughout the country. 2 Q. So Rockwell bought linings for resale and just 3 repackaged them in the Rockwell boxes or packaging? 4 A. That was one way for distribution. There were 5 other ways. 6 Q. what were the other ways? ' 7 A. The linings could be sold separately. Linings 8 could be -- in some cases, linings and, say, rivets 9 were sold to reline an axle. In some cases lined brake 10 shoes were sold. In some cases -- and this was more 11 rare -- but full brake assemblies were sold as 12 aftermarket parts. 13 And then there were also major overhaul kits 14 that were sold that included both lined shoes as well 15 as a lot of what are commonly referred to as hard 16 parts, which might be the springs and the rollers and 17 the anchor pins, so that a complete brake job could be 18 done on a heavy truck. 19 Q. And trie service parts, as far as the brake 20 parts, could be used on any kind of -- any make tractor 21 trailer or just the ones that Rockwell was the standard 22 equipment on? 23 A. The Rockwell components could be used on 24 Rockwell brakes so that if you wanted to replace 25 components that were on the original truck, you could 00114 1 use those components. But, also, particularly with 2 shoes, the shoes were remanufactured by independents in 3 the marketplace, in which case you might use an old 4 shoe, remove the worn-out lining, put on a new lining 5 and resell it into the marketplace. 6 Q. So the linings could go on -- strike that. 7 I'm looking at the -- I'll mark this as 8 plaintiffs' next. It's excerpts from a Rockwell brake Page 47 Ketcham Bruce - Hall Kenna 6-7-05.TXT 9 parts catalog that was copied at the Goodwin Procter 10 office last week, and there's a couple of pages that 11 refer to brake shoe repair kits and lined kits and 12 there's a column of applications. 13 (Plaintiffs' Exhibit No. 10 marked for 14 identification.) 15 BY MS. GROSS: 16 Q. What are the applications in reference to, if 17 you know? 18 A. That gives the size of the shoe to start with, 19 the drum diameter and the shoe width, and it also talks 20 about the friction level and it also talks about what 21 type of shoe it was. in this particular case, one of 22 the ones on the page is for a Q Series shoe, and above 23 that was one for a T series shoe. 24 Q. I notice on one of them it mentioned Eaton, I 25 believe, the one -- was it the one on the top there? Q00115 1 A. I don't see that. Maybe you can point it out 2 to me, what you're referring to. 3 Q. Here, actually, where it says, on the bottom, 4 Eaton -- under "Application information," it says, 5 "Eaton 16 and a half by 7 Q shoe." 6 what does the reference to Eaton signify, if 7 you know? 8 A. That would appear to reference the Eaton 9 corporation. 10 Q. And why is it or how is it involved with the 11 Rockwell brake shoes? 12 A. It appears in this particular instance they 13 were offering a shoe that could be used on an Eaton 14 brake. 15 Q. Who was offering a shoe that could be used on 16 an Eaton brake? 17 A. This was a Rockwell parts manufacturer. 18 Q. So Rockwell was manufacturing shoes that could 19 be used on Eaton axles? Do I have that right? 20 MR. KEELE: Objection. Vague as to time. 21 THE WITNESS: it would be on an Eaton brake. 22 BY MS. GROSS: 23 Q. On an Eaton brake. 24 Did Rockwell generally manufacture shoes for 25 use on other companies* brakes, if you know? 000116 1 A. In general, not. I would say that would be an 2 extremely, extremely, extremely, extremely small 3 portion of any business. Obviously the main portion of 4 the business was to service Rockwell's product. 5 Q. There's another reference to Fruehauf. 6 A. Uh-huh. 7 Q. Can you explain to me the connection between 8 the Rockwell shoe and the Fruehauf component or what 9 is -- I'll just end -- ask that question. 10 A. Again, Fruehauf appears to be a reference to a 11 Fruehauf brake, and this is a shoe that can be used on 12 a Fruehauf brake. 13 Q. Did the shoes come with linings, the ones that 14 are pictured here? 15 MR. KEELE: objection. Foundation, vagueas 16 to time. 17 THE WITNESS: Yes. 18 BY MS. GROSS: 19 Q. Can you tell me, other than Fruehauf and Eaton, Page 48 Ketcham Bruce - Hall Kenna 6-7-05.TXT 20 any other manufacturers that Rockwell manufactured shoe 21 kits for? 22 A. Not off the top of my head, no. 23 Q. Do you know if there are others? 24 A. I do not know. 25 Q. what is a shoe kit as opposed tothelining? 000117 1 what makes the -- I'll just ask that question. 2 A. Lining itself is the brake block. The brake 3 block or the lining is typically for on-highway drum 4 brake applications, heavy truck, is riveted to a shoe, 5 to the metal portion, to the metal shoe. 6 Lining can be sold separately. And, typically, 7 when I say "separately," it's sold as a lining kit in 8 which you have enough blocks in there to do an axle 9 replacement, so you have multiple linings into that 10 box. They can also be sold as lined shoes in which the 11 lining has already been riveted to a new metal shoe. 12 And it can be sold as a major overhaul kit, 13 which, as I said earlier, would include the lined shoe 14 as well as some of the other components that are used 15 to do a major brake overhaul, such as the springs and 16 the rollers and the anchor pins and such. 17 It may also be sold in kits that would include 18 the linings and some of the other components, but not 19 riveted to a shoe. 20 So there are multiple ways that you can buy 21 that brake product to reline a shoe. 22 Q. Do you know if Rockwell supplied instructions 23 with its brake shoe repair kits or its lined shoe kits? 24 A. They did include some instructions in some of 25 the kits. 00118 1 MS. GROSS: why don't we take a short break and 2 let me see if I can find some of the instructions. 3 (Off the record.) 4 BY MS. GROSS: 5 Q. I believe before the break, you testified that 6 Rockwell provided instructions with its shoe kits; is 7 that correct? 8 A. In some of them I believe they did, yes. 9 Q. Have you ever reviewed those instructions? 10 A. I probably have, yes. 11 Q. I did not find any instructions included in the 12 documents that I received so far from the inspection at 13 Goodwin Procter. 14 Did you conduct a search for instructions 15 related to the replacement shoe kits prior to the 16 deposition today? 17 A. No. 18 Q. do you know where the instructions that you 19 reviewed are located? 20 A. I would believe that those instructions would 21 be at Goodwin Procter. 22 MS. GROSS: Counsel, do you know if they were 23 produced as part of the production? 24 MS. ROSS: i believe they were. 25 MS. GROSS: Pardon? 00119 1 MS. ROSS: I believe they were. 2 MS. GROSS: Again, we haven't yet obtained 3 copies of what was produced at the Goodwin Procter law 4 offices. Page 49 Ketcham Bruce - Hall Kenna 6-7-05.TXT 5 BY MS. GROSS: 6 Q. Can you tell me if handling of the shoe repair 7 kits or the use of these Rockwell shoe repair kits 8 required any manipulation, grinding or other efforts 9 that would generate dust? 10 A. To the repair kit itself? 11 Q. Yes. 12 A. It is possible in the early '70s that some of 13 the linings that might have been shipped at that point 14 in time perhaps would have needed grinding in the 15 fi el d. 16 Q. Why do you say that? 17 A. Because that was a common characteristic of 18 linings at that point in time prior to the lining grind 19 elimination. 20 Q. Why did you have to grind the linings in the 21 field? 22 A. In order to match it to the contour of the 23 drum. 24 Q. And then at some point, that changed? 25 A. Yes. 00120 1 Q. Can you tell me, approximately, the time period 2 that it changed? 3 A. Approximately, I want to say, sometime in the 4 late '70s to early '80s. 5 Q. So then did Rockwell stop selling the shoe kits 6 and the lined shoe kits? 7 A. No. What they sold at that point in time were 8 linings on the shoes or linings in the kits that did 9 not need to be ground in the field. They were already 10 contoured to the proper contour for installation on tne 11 drum, or with the drum. 12 Q. Do you know if, during the time period when 13 Rockwell was selling the shoe lining kits that required 14 grinding in the field, whether the kits contained any 15 warnings regarding any potential dust hazards? 16 A. I'm not quite sure when they specifically 17 discontinued those shoes to the other ones. I know 18 that the first warnings in some of the maintenance 19 manuals appeared, I believe it was, in the late '70s. 20 Q. Do you know what prompted Rockwell to initiate 21 warnings in the late 1970s? 22 A. I'm not absolutely certain, and I believe it 23 was probably an outgrowth of the OSHA regulations that 24 were coming into being at that point in time. 25 Q. Are you the person most knowledgeable regarding 00121 1 warnings -- categories 7 and 8 on the deposition 2 notice? 3 A. To the extent -- yes, in general. 4 Q. So other than the reference to the OSHA 5 warnings, do you have any other information about what 6 prompted Rockwell to start placing warnings on its own 7 products that contained asbestos? 8 A. No. That's my belief. 9 Q, Were any of Rockwell's employees exposed to 10 asbestos at the manufacturing plants, if you know? 11 A. They worked in areas that required lining grind 12 and riveting of the linings in periods when asbestos 13 linings were used, and I know that there were 14 air-monitoring studies that were done in the early 15 '70s. I think that you might have some of those Page 50 Ketcham Bruce - Hall Kenna 6-7-05.TXT 16 documents that deal with that process. 17 Q. When was the first time that Rockwell was sued, 18 if you know, for an asbestos-related health claim? 19 A. From what I've seen and have been told, it was 20 1978. 21 Q. Can you tell me when Rockwell was first put on 22 notice by its employees that asbestos dust might be a 23 health hazard? 24 A. I think that there are some documents talking 25 about that in the late -- I'm sorry -- I should say tne D00122 1 early '70s. 2 Q. I noticed -- in the exhibits to your prior 3 deposition, I believe there are some copies of 4 grievances from Rockwell employees, expressing concerns 5 about brake dust, that are dated 1973. 6 Does that sound familiar? 7 A. Generally, yes. 8 Q. Do you know if 1973 was the first time that 9 Rockwell internally was alerted to brake dust hazards 10 regarding its own employees? 11 A. I think there might have been other documents 12 in there around that general time period. 13 Q. Did Rockwell belong to any industrial health 14 organizations? 15 A. Beyond the National -- the National Safety 16 Council? 17 Q. Yes. 18 A. That is the only one that I recall. 19 Q. Rockwell wasn't a member of the Friction 20 Material standards Institute? 21 A. To the best of my knowledge, no. 22 Q. Or the Asbestos institute? 23 A. Correct. No. 24 Q. To the best of your knowledge, Rockwell was a 25 member of the National Safety Council. Do you know 000123 1 when Rockwell became a member of that council? 2 A. I think I've seen things that have said in the 3 '40s. 4 Q. Did Rockwell have an industrial hygienist 5 during the relevant time period, if you know? 6 A. I believe there is information on that in some 7 of the interrogatory responses. I believe there was, 8 but the interrogatory responses is probably a better 9 source than myself. . 10 Q. Can you tell me if Defendant conducted any 11 medical monitoring of its own employees? 12 A. Yes, Rockwell did. 13 Q. when did Rockwell begin monitoring the health 14 of its own employees? 15 A. In the brake plants, I believe that was in the 16 early '70s. It could have been '73. Again, I believe 17 that there are some documents that discuss the air 18 monitoring as well as the medical monitoring in several 19 of the plants. 20 MS. GROSS: Unless those documents were 21 produced recently at the Goodwin Procter office, I 22 don't have those documents. 23 MS. ROSS: They were produced at the Goodwin 24 Procter office last week. 25 BY MS. GROSS: D00124 Page 51 Ketcham Bruce - Hall Kenna 6-7-05.TXT 1 Q. can you tell me what kind of medical monitoring 2 Rockwell conducted at the brake plants? 3 A. The documents would be a better source of that 4 information than me. However, from my recollection, X 5 believe that there were chest x-rays and pulmonary 6 testing that was done on a [periodic basis. There may 7 have been other medical monitoring also done. 8 Q. Who did the medical monitoring for Rockwell 9 employees? 10 A. That would be included in the documents'to the 11 extent that I know. I don't know as I sit here. 12 Q. I don't have the documents, so I can't question 13 you regarding that, but I am interested in what you do 14 know. 15 Do you know if Rockwell evaluated those results 16 over the years? 17 A. I do not know personally beyond, again, what's 18 included in the documents. 19 Q. Do you know if Rockwell changed any of its 20 employees' work practices based on the results of the 21 medical monitoring of its employees? 22 A. Not that I know of as far as the medical 23 monitoring. However, there was -- also, as I had 24 mentioned, there was environmental monitoring of dust 25 levels at various points in time. Based on levels that D00125 1 were detected, changes were made in work practices. 2 Q. can you tell me when Rockwell first learned 3 that asbestos could cause lung disease? 4 A. The first time? 5 Q. Yes. 6 A. That I do not know. 7 Q. So we do know that there were industrial 8 hygienists employed by Rockwell, correct -- 9 A. That is correct. 10 Q. -- during the relevant time period? 11 A. Well, during some time period. Again, I refer 12 back to the interrogatories that list out that time 13 period, I believe. 14 Q. When did Rockwell stop using 15 asbestos-containing brake linings in its brake shoes, 16 brake assemblies and axles? 17 A. On the heavy-duty side, on-highway side of the 18 business, it was phased out after the changeover I 19 spoke of this morning, after -- in 1988, the asbestos 20 linings were used up, and by either the late 1980s or 21 early 1990s, the change would have been complete for 22 the on-highway side of the business. 23 Q. I did find a document dated Abgust 15th, 1972 24 from a prior Rockwell production that describes the 25 label that's to be used on friction materials that can 000126 1 be cut, drilled or ground by a customer in their place 2 of business. 3 I'll mark that as plaintiffs' next and ask you 4 to take a look at it. 5 (Plaintiffs' Exhibit No. 11 marked for 6 Identification.) 7 BY MS. GROSS: 8 Q. Have you seen that document before? 9 A. I'm uncertain. If it was attached to my prior 10 deposition, I probably saw it at that point in time. 11 Q. I don't think it was attached to your prior Page 52 Ketcham Bruce - Hall Kenna 6-7-05.TXT 12 deposition. I think it was produced to this office by 13 Rockwell in an earlier production. 14 A. okay. It does not look familiar, then. 15 Q. can you tell me if this is the first time that 16 Rockwell labeled its friction materials? 17 A. I don't know if this pertains to Rockwell. 18 Q. Do you recognize any of the names of the 19 district managers? 20 A. No. 21 Q. Do you know if this is the first time that 22 Rockwell received information regarding the labeling of 23 friction materials? 24 A. I don't know and -- I don't know. 25 Q. do you know what, if anything, Rockwell was 00127 1 purchasing from the Johns-Manville Corporation in 1972 2 that would lead this document to be in the files? 3 A. I do not. 4 Q. Do you know if this is the document that 5 prompted Rockwell to start labeling its 6 asbestos-containing products in the early 1970s? 7 A. I do not. 8 Did you say "early 1970s"? 9 Q. Yes. is that what you said? 10 A. No. I said late. 11 Q. You said the first warnings appeared in the 12 late 1970s. 13 A. Late 1970s. 14 Q. okay. 15 We'll mark this as plaintiffs' next. It's a 16 May 1975 letter from Raybestos-Manhattan -- to 17 Raybestos-Manhattan from Rockwell International. 18 (Plaintiffs' Exhibit No. 12 marked for 19 Identification.) 20 BY MS. GROSS: 21 Q. I'll ask you if you've seen that before. 22 Have you had an opportunity to review it? 23 A. Yes, I have. 24 Q. The letter references union grievances and 25 threats of being reported to OSHA. 00128 1 I realize that this occurred prior to your 2 employment at Rockwell, but do you have any information 3 regarding when the grievances first started or who was 4 threatening to report Rockwell to OSHA? . 5 A. Relative -- relative to this type of issue, 6 then, because -- I believe that there are some 7 documents that discuss those types of issues prior to 8 this point in time. 9 Q. You have no independent knowledge yourself? 10 A. No. 11 Q. You haven't talked to anybody about the 12 grievances or the OSHA issues? 13 A. No. 14 Q. what union represented the workers in the brake 15 plants, if you know? 16 A. I am notcertain. 17 Q. what kinds of precautions, if you know, did 18 Rockwell initiate in its brake plants arising from the 19 grievances that are discussed in the 1975 letter? 20 MR. KEELE: Objection. Foundation. 21 THE WITNESS: I don't know what was done 22 specifically in response to grievances. There may be Page 53 Ketcham Bruce - Hall Kenna 6-7-05.TXT 23 items that are included in some of the documents that I 24 had referenced that may state and talk about that. 25 Obviously, one thing that you can apparently 00129 1 see from the face of the letter is that prior requests 2 have been made to lining suppliers regarding the 3 receipt of materials from them. So I imagine that that 4 would be one of them. But as far as specific to 5 grievances, I would have to go back and rely upon the 6 documents. 7 BY MS. GROSS: 8 Q. So do you have any independent information at 9 all regarding any warnings or work practices, changes 10 that Rockwell took to protect its own employees from 11 asbestos dust? 12 MR. keele: objection. Vague. Time and 13 context. 14 THE witness: Again, there are things I know 15 that are discussed in some of the documents. I don't 16 know that they had dust-collection systems in the 17 plants, particularly in the riveting and in the 18 grinding area. And I'm sure that there were other 19 things that I can't recall as I sit here but I'm sure 20 were also included in some of the documents or 21 mentioned in some of the documents. 22 BY MS. GROSS: 23 Q. Do you know when the dust collections were 24 installed for Rockwell company? 25 00130 A. No, I don't know. It was at least in the '70s 1 and could have been earlier, much earlier. 2 Q. You really don't know one way or another? 3 A. Pardon? 4 Q. You really don't know one way or another? 5 A. I believe that there is reference in some of 6 the documents to dust-collection systems from the early 7 '70s, and my presumption is that they would have been 8 installed prior to that. 9 Q. Were you involved at all with the creation of 10 warnings that Rockwell used for its asbestos-containing 11 brake products? 12 A. "Creation" being...? 13 Q. The design, the language or anything like that. 14 A. Not during the relevant time period, no. 15 Q. Who would have been responsible for those 16 warnings? 17 A. I do not know. 18 Q. Do you know who was responsible for the 19 decision to warn the consumer regarding 20 asbestos-containing brake components that Rockwell was 21 putting into the marketplace? 22 A. No, I don't. 23 You're referring here to the first warnings 24 that appeared; correct? 25 00131 Q. Right. 1 Unfortunately, I don't think I have any of the 2 warnings that might have been produced at the recent 3 document production. 4 Can you tell me if Rockwell placed warnings on 5 products going to OEMs, warnings regarding asbestos in 6 brake products that Rockwell was selling to OEMs? 7 A. Yes, I do. Page 54 Ketcham Bruce - Hall Kenna 6-7-05.TXT 8 Q. Do you know when they started to place warnings 9 or provide warnings? 10 A. It was various points in time. 11 Q. Why don't you tell me when. 12 A. on the product itself, in the late '70s, I 13 believe it was, warnings appeared on boxes of 14 replacement parts that would have gone on to the OEMs. 15 Q. Do you know what those warnings said in the 16 late 1970s? 17 A. I believe it's disclosed in some of the* 18 interrogatory responses which is probably a better 19 source than my memory. 20 Q. Were those warnings from the late 1970s revised 21 at some point, if you know? 22 A. Various warnings were revised over a period of 23 time. 24 Q. Can you be more specific? 25 A. If we can find the interrogatory responses, I 00132 1 probably can be and would probably be more accurate. 2 If not, I can't. 3 Q. It's not in these. 4 Let's take another short break. We're almost 5 done. 6 (off the record.) 7 MS. gross: We've marked as plaintiffs' next 8 the Answers of Defendant Rockwell Automation to set 9 one. 10 (Plaintiffs' Exhibit No. 13 marked for 11 identification.) 12 BY MS. GROSS: 13 Q. If you'll turn to Rockwell's answer to 14 interrogatory No. 27, there's a warning from the late 15 1970s that states: "Caution: Contains asbestos fibers. 16 Avoid creating dust. Breathing dust may cause serious 17 bodily harm." 18 It says that this warning was placed on boxes 19 of replacement asbestos-containing brake parts. 20 Can you tell me if this warning was also given 21 to the OEM manufacturers that were purchasing 22 asbestos-containing brake parts during the relevant 23 time period? 24 A. certainly to the extent that they ordered 25 asbestos-containing brake parts for replacement parts, 00133 1 it would have been on the box that they received in 2 their parts distribution centers. 3 Q. So this warning was going out to the 4 distribution centers and to the OEMs; is that correct? 5 A. Well, when I was talking about distribution 6 centers, I was talking about the PDCs at the OEMs, or 7 parts distribution centers at the OEMs, where they 8 redistributed service parts. 9 Q. By the late 1970s, do you know whether or not 10 Rockwell was aware of the fact that breathing asbestos 11 dust could cause cancer? 12 A. I think that they were aware that some authors 13 had shown some type of relationship between the brake 14 dust and illnesses. 15 Q. Do you know where this warning came from? 16 A. Specifically, no, I do not. 17 Q. Do you know what division or department at 18 Rockwell was responsible for drafting the warning? Page 55 Ketcham Bruce - Hall Kenna 6-7-05.TXT 19 A. I do not. I know at the time I was working in 20 Florence -- and Florence is where aftermarket parts 21 were packaged -- that there was a requirement, since I 22 was then, you know, in the purchasing area, to purchase 23 new labels that had this imprinted upon it, but as far 24 as who, I do not know. 25 Q. The label that we've been discussing is the D00134 1 label on the replacement boxes in the late 1970s? 2 A. That's correct. 3 Q. Then was this -- it looks like there are 4 warnings that were introduced into product literature. 5 Do you know what product literature is referred to 6 here? 7 A. Yes. The warnings that appeared over here 8 would have appeared in some of the field maintenance 9 manuals for brake product, and they also may have 10 appeared in some of the parts books. 11 Q. Did Rockwell provide any mechanical training 12 services or other kinds of services to distributors who 13 were distributing its products? 14 A. I'm not sure that I understand your question. 15 Q. Did Rockwell provide any kinds of services or 16 training to mechanics or the OEMs who were 17 incorporating its products into their vehicles? 18 A. Rockwell Had field service personnel that would 19 handle training at some dealerships and/or fleets on 20 occasion. 21 Q. what's the difference between a dealership and 22 a fleet operation? 23 A. A dealership, I'm referring to a dealer of an 24 OEM, such as a Freightliner dealer or somebody like 25 that that sells new vehicles and has a service 000135 1 department in the dealership. For a fleet, I'm 2 referring to an operating fleet, Ryder, UPS, Fed Ex, 3 whatever. 4 Q. Rockwell had what kinds of employees that it 5 would send out to these locations? 6 A. Field service people as well as salespeople. 7 Q. What kinds of services do the field service 8 people provide? 9 A. They might offer suggestions. They might look 10 at -- offer some training in particular products from 11 time to time. In the repair of those products, they 12 might, you know, help in assuring that they had the 13 proper mix of service parts available to them and 14 answer any Questions that they might have. 15 Q. Did they offer training in removing and 16 installing brakes, for example? 17 A. I would imagine that they would. 18 Q. How far back in time did Rockwell offer field 19 services? 20 A. I don't know. 21 Q. was there a field services department when you 22 started working at Rockwell in 1978? 23 A. Ibelieve there was. 24 Q. Fleet operations, I believe you mentioned a 25 couple of companies. I'm a little confused about what D00136 1 constitutes a fleet operation for Rockwell in its 2 business. 3 A. A fleet is a collection of trucks that are Page 56 Ketcham Bruce - Hall Kenna 6-7-05.TXT 4 owned by one entity. Yellow Freight. I don't know if 5 they're even in business anymore. You see them on the 6 expressways all the time, you know, that are hauling 7 goods. 8 Q. Rockwell -- what was Rockwell's involvement 9 with Yellow Freight, for example? 10 A. I don't know. I was just trying to pick a 11 fleet name that I knew. I wasn't trying to say that 12 there was a relationship between Rockwell and Yellow. 13 Q. I understand. ' 14 I'm more trying to get at generally, what was 15 Rockwell's agreement with fleet operations? 16 A. I don't know that we had agreements with fleet 17 operations. Rockwell people would call on operating 18 fleets to encourage them to buy a Rockwell product on 19 the next new vehicle orders that they ordered from 20 OEMs, as well as to provide guidance or training in the 21 servicing of Rockwell product that the fleet might 22 have. 23 Is that helpful? 24 Q. Yes. 25 MS. gross: Counsel, can you tell me if there 00137 1 was product literature that contained the warnings that 2 are in the interrogatory responses produced at the -- 3 MS. ROSS: I believe that the field manuals 4 that Mr. Ketcham referenced were produced. And there 5 may have been other manuals as well, but I know for 6 sure they were within the production. 7 BY MS. GROSS: 8 Q. Can you tell me when Rockwell first started 9 conducting dust studies at its manufacturing plants? 10 A. I believe that was in the early '70s. And, 11 again, I believe that there were some documents that 12 probably discuss that. Whether that was the first, I'm 13 uncertain, but that's certainly the first documented 14 case. 15 Q. During the course of youremployment at 16 Rockwell, did any of your job duties require you to get 17 involved with the dust studies that were conducted? 18 A. No, they did not. 19 Q. So other than what's contained in the 20 documents, you don't have any independent knowledge 21 regarding dust studies? 22 A. That's correct. .. 23 MS. GROSS: .That's, all the questions I have. 24 I don't know if anyone else here has questions. 25 MR. 05THIMER: Noquestions. 00138 1 MS. GROSS: Thank you for your time. 2 THE WITNESS: Thank you. 3 (Whereupon, the deposition was concluded at 4 3:09 p.m.) 5 6 7 8 9 _______________________ SIGNATURE OF WITNESS 10 11 12 13 Page 57 Ketcham Bruce - Hall Kenna 6-7-05.TXT 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 000139 1 STATE OF CALIFORNIA ) 2 3 COUNTY OF ALAMEDA ) ) 4 5 I, DENISE M. LOMBARDO, do hereby certify: 6 That BRUCE KETCHAM, in the foregoing deposition 7 named, was present and by me sworn as a witness in the 8 above-entitled action at the time and place therein 9 specified; 10 That said deposition was taken before me at said 11 time and place, and was taken down in shorthand by me, 12 a certified shorthand Reporter of the state of 13 California, and was thereafter transcribed into 14 typewriting, and that the foregoing transcript 15 constitutes a full, true and correct report of said 16 deposition and of the proceedings that took place; 17 IN WITNESS WHEREOF, I have hereunder subscribed my 18 hand this 10th day of Dune 2005. 19 20 21 22 23 DENISE M. LOMBARDO, CSR NO. 5419 24 State of California 25 000140 1 The deposition of BRUCE KETCHAM taken on June 7, 2005 2 has been shipped from the disk of DENISE LOMBARDO 3 4 DELETE data: YES NO 5 CASE NAME: Kenna Hall, et al. Vs. Asbestos corp. Ltd., 6 et al. 7 8 9 CLIENTS REQUESTING DISKETTE: 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 Page 58 Ketcham Bruce - Hall Kenna 6-7-05.TXT 24 25 Page 59