Document mpKELwMV5bM2RKrmOY6Nxngog

FILE NAME: Johnson & Johnson (JAJ) DATE: 2018 Feb 1 DOC#: JAJ074 DOCUMENT DESCRIPTION: Legal - Deposition of Frederick Pooley, Ph.D. with 2 Pages of BC Notes Frederick Pooley, Ph.D. SUPERIOR COURT OF WASHINGTON FOR KING COUNTY JODY E. RATCLIFF, Plaintiff, v. BORGWARNER MORSE TEC LLC, et al., Defendants. ) ) ) ) ) ) SEA ) ) ) ) THURSDAY, FEBRUARY 1, 2018 Page 53 No.16-2-18128-7 Videotaped Deposition of Frederick Pooley, Ph.D., held at the offices of Orrick, Her,rington & Sutcliffe LLP, 51 West 52nd Street, New York, New York, commencing at 9:31 a.m., on the above date, before Carrie A. Campbell, Registered Diplomate Reporter, Certified Realtime Reporter, Illinois, California & Texas Certified Shorthand Reporter, Missouri & Kansas Certified Court Reporter. GOLKOW LITIGATION SERVICES 877.370.DEPS deps0golkow.com Golkow Technologies, Inc. 1.877.370.DEPS Frederick Pooley, Ph.D. Page 54 1 APPEARANCES: 2 3 LANIER LAW FIRM, P.C. BY: W. MARK LANIER, ESQ. 4 wml@lanierlawfirm.com 6810 FM 1960 West 5 Houston, Texas 77069 ' (713)659-5200 6 7 LANIER LAW FIRM, P.C. 8 BY: RACHEL LANIER, ESQ. rachel.lanier@lanierlawiirm.com 9 DARRON BERQUIST, ESQ. darron.berquist@lanierlawfirm.com 10 SHANNON TULLY, ESQ. shannon.tully@lanierlawiirm.com 11 ETHAN HORN, ESQ. ethan.hom@lanierlawfirm.com 12 126 East 56th Street, Sixth Floor New York, New York 10022 13 (212)421-2800 14 15 LANIER LAW FIRM, P.C. BY: LEE E. CIRSCH, ESQ. 16 lec@lanierlawfirm.com 10866 Wilshire Boulevard, Suite 400 17 Los Angeles, California 90024 (310) 277-5100 18 Counsel for Plaintiffs 19 2 0 ORRICK, HERRINGTON & SUTCLIFFE LLP BY: PETER A. BICKS, ESQ. 21 pbicks@orrick.com ALLEGRA AUSILIA NOONAN, ESQ. 22 anoonan@orrick.com 51 West 52nd Street 23 New York, New York 10019 (212)506-3742 2 4 Counsel for Defendant Johnson & Johnson 25 Page 55 1 ALSTON & BIRD LLP BY: JOSHUA L. BECKER, ESQ. 2 josh.becker@alston.com 1201 West Peachtree Street, Suite 4900 3 Atlanta, Georgia 30309-3424 (404) 881-7000 4 Counsel for Imerys and Cyprus 5 6 ALSO PRESENT: 7 JAWANA COLEMAN, Lanier Law Firm DAVID EGlLMAN 8 ELLA FASSLER JOAN STEFFEN 9 10 VIDEOGRAPHER: 11 HENRY MARTE, Golkow Litigation Services 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 56 1 INDEX 2 PAGE 3 APPEARANCES.................................. 2 4 EXAMINATIONS 5 BY MR. BICKS............................... 15 6 BY MR. LANIER................................133 7 BY MR. BICKS................................ 367 8 BY MR. LANIER............................... 411 9 BY MR. BICKS................................ 459 10 BY MR. LANIER............................... 460 11 12 EXHIBITS 13 No. Description Page 14 1 Curriculum Vitae-Frederick David 18 Pooley 15 2 Occupational Exposures to 37 16 Non-Asbestiform Talc in Vermont, Boundy, et al. 17 3 Report of F.D. Pooley, 39 18 JNJ 000325709 - JNJ 000325722 19 4 Report o f the Examination o f Rock 47 Samples from the Vermont mine, 2 0 Department of Mineral Exploitation, University College, 21 Cardiff, FDP000000381 -FDP000000430 22 5 Report of the Analysis of J. & J. 54 23 International Talc Samples, Department of Mineral 2 4 Exploitation, University College, Cardiff, 25_______FDP000000459 - FDP000000494 Page 57 1 6 McCrone Associates, Inc. 21 May : 1987 letter from Ian M. Stewart to 2 Donald M. Benninger, J&J-0163931 7 Talc Product Safety and Purity 62 4 Project: 1. Talc Ore Sampling- Fontane Mine Italy, F.D. Pooley, 5 W.R. Dean, I.W. Sloan, 30th September, 1971, 6 JNJAZ55 000001979 - JNJ AZ5 5_000001987 8 F.D. Pooley letterto Dr. Shelly, 72 8 28th September, 1972, JNJAZ55_000003645 9 Photos ofthe mine 72 10 10 Report ofItalian Mine Samples J. 7 11 &J., Department ofMineral Exploitation, University College, 12 Cardiff, FDP000000495 - FDP000000618 13 n Report of Examination of 82 14 International Samples ofTalc Supplied by Johnson and Johnson, 15 University College, Cardiff, Dr. F.D. Pooley, Department ofMineral 16 Exploitation, JNJAZ55 000002931 - 17 JNJAZ55_000002936 18 12 Examination of Shower to Shower Talc Sample for Johnson and 19 Johnson, University College, Cardiff, Dr. F.D. Pooley, 20 Department of Mineral Exploitation, 21 JNJNL61 000019271 - JNJNL61_000019273 22 13 University College, Cardiff, Dr. 88 23 F.D. Pooley, Department of Mineral Exploitation, 8th November, 1972, 24 letter from Pooley to A.J. Goudie, JNJMX68 000004230 - 25 JNJMX68 000004231 2 (Pages 54 to 57) Golkow Technologies, Inc 1.877.370.DEPS Frederick Pooley, Ph.D CO LO 1 14 Heinz J. Eiermann report, January 90 7,1976 2 15 Report of Examination of Powders 92 3 for Johnson and Johnson Ltd., University College, Cardiff, Dr. 4 F.D. Pooley, Department of Mineral Exploitation, 5 JNJAZ55 000002066- JNJAZ55 000002070 6 16 University College, Cardiff, Dr. 96 7 F.D. Pooley, Department ofMineral Exploitation, 7th April, 1975 8 letter to G. Lee, JNJNL61 000009765- 9 JNJNL61 000009767 10 17 Memo to Editors from Thomas C. 98 Chalmers, 11 JNJNL61 000021695- JNJNL61 000021697 12 18 Report ofthe Examination of Tale 105 13 Samples obtained from Mount Sinai Hospital, University College, 14 Cardiff, Dr. F.D. Pooley, Department of Mineral 15 Exploitation, JNJNL61 000035499- 16 JNJNL61 000035562 17 19 "Consumer Talcums and Powders: 108 Mineral and Chemical 18 Characterization," AN Rohl, AM Langer and Selikoffand Tordini 19 and Klimentidis 20 20 The New York Times, "Beauty; a 115 dusting ofpowder," Deborah 21 Blumenthal 22 21 Inhaled Particles IV (In Two 123 Parts) Proceedings of an 23 International Symposium organized by The British Occupations Hygiene 24 Society, Edinburgh, 22-26 September 1975, edited by W.H. 25 Walton 1 22 University College, Cardiff, Dr. 129 F.D. Pooley, Department ofMineral 2 Exploitation, 20th May, 1975 letter from Pooley to Dr. F.R. 3 Rolle, JNJMX68 000009127 4 23 18th August, 1972 letter from W.R. 168 5 Dean to Dr. A. Goudie, FDP000000320 - FDP000000324 6 24 January 22,1996 confidential 175 7 Johnson & Johnson memo from W.H. Ashton to J. Hopkins, 8 JNJ000065186 Metadata 9 25 July 26,1984 Cyprus Industrial 188 Minerals Company letter to Mr. 10 Thomas P. Hall of OSHA Division of Consumer Affairs from K.F. Julin, 11 president, CAMC-Greco-000364 - 12 CAMC-Greco-000366 13 26 Chrysotile Asbestos, World Health 193 Organization 14 27 "Talc Pneumoconiosis: A 212 15 Pathologic and Mineralogic Study," A.E. Gibbs 28 Proposed Outline for Talc 182 17 Technical Presentation at the FDA Talc Symposium, 18 PCPC000419 - PCPC000421 19 29 June 6,1973 Johnson & Johnson 223 Baby Products Company memo from 20 D.R. Peterson to R.J. Mortimer, R. Miller, D.D. Johnston and H.G. 21 Stolzer, JNJ 000231416 22 30 March 14,1976, Examination of 226 23 American & British Talcum Powder Products by Dr. F.D. Pooley, 24 JNJ 000235207 25 Page Page 59 Page 60 1 31 Johnson & Johnson Benelux B.V. 235 December 13, 1973 letter to J.H. 2 Smids and H.L. Farlow from M.J.M. Oerlemans, 3 JNJA255 000006532 - JNJAZ55 000006539 4 32 13th December, 1973 Johnson & 242 5 Johnson Limited letter to Dr. G. Hildick-Smith from W.R. Dean, 6 JNJ 000260970 - JNJ 000260971 7 33 University College, Cardiff, Dr. 245 F.D. Pooley, Department of Mineral 8 Exploitation, 25th January, 1977, letter to F.R. Rolle from F.D. 9 Pooley, JNJ 000264731 10 34 "What Did Testing Reveal" document 248 11 from Hopkins'deposition 12 35 Examination of Johnson and 252 Johnson's Baby Powder, Dr. A.J. 13 Goudie, Johnson and Johnson Research Center, 14 JNJ 000260033 - JNJ 000260835 15 36 Examination ofJohnson and 255 Johnson's Baby Powder, Walter 16 McCrone and Associates, JNJ 000239387 - JNJ 000239390 17 37 September 19,1973 Johnson & 259 18 Johnson Baby Products Company memo: Following are the major 19 points discussed by Dr. Pooley on his visit here September 12,1973, 20 JNJAZ55 000010715 - JNJAZ55 000010717 21 38 "Amphibole Content of Cosmetic and 269 22 Pharmaceutical Talcs," A.M. Blount, 23 IMERYS 211157 - IMERYS 211165 24 39 Proposed Specs for Analyzing Talc 274 for Asbestos, 25 JNJ 000232679 - JNJ 000232743 Page 61 1 40 18th February, 1975, Johnson & 280 Johnson Limited letter from l.W. 2 Sloan to Dr. R. Rolle, J&J-0084545 3 41 Johnson & Johnson Baby Products 281 4 Company, November 24, 1976 letter from W.H. Ashton to Mr. George 5 Lee, JNJ 000242147 6 42 "An epidemiological study in an 286 7 Anatolian village environmentally exposed to tremolite asbestos," 8 Yibaris 43 Report on Carcinogens, Thirteenth 302 9 Edition, Asbestos, CAS No. 1332-21-4, National Toxicology 10 Program, Department ofHealth and Human Services 11 44 The Collegium Ramazzini Releases 309 12 Official Position on the Global Health Dimensions of Asbestos and 13 Asbestos-Related Diseases, 24 June, 2015 14 45 Asbestos: Worker and Employer 310 15 Guide to Hazards and Recommended Controls, Department of Health & 16 Human Resources, CDC, EPA, US Department of Housing and Urban 17 Development, NIH, OSHA 18 46 Asbestos and Cancer Risk, What is 311 asbestos? American Cancer Society 19 47 Societ Talco e Grafite Val 319 20 Chisone, JNJ 000270519 - JNJ 000270549 21 48 October 2,1974, Johnson & Johnson 326 22 Baby Products Company, Ashton-Ferry Visit to Societ 23 Talco e Grafite Val Chisone, JNJ 000252591 24 25 3 (Pages 58 to 61) Golkow Technologies, Inc. - 1.877.370.DEPS Frederick Pooley, Ph.D 1 49 October 31,1974, Johnson & 328 Johnson Baby Products Company, 2 Italian Talc Source, Societ Talco e Grafite Val Chisone, Tale 3 Publication Matters, Project No. 0503.00, 4 JNJ 000270495 - JNJ 000270496 5 50 W.R. Dean letter to sirs, Johnson 333 & Johnson Limited Research 6 Programme - University College, Cardiff, 7 JNJ 000260873 - JNJ 000260874 8 51 September 9, 1975, Johnson & 340 Johnson Baby Products Company, 9 A.M. Langer Analysis of Talcum Powder Products - Edinburgh 10 Meeting, JNJ 000253056 - JNJ 000253057 11 52 October 3,1975, Johnson & Johnson 344 12 Baby Products Company, Review of Talc Events at Brighton and 13 Edinburgh Conferences, September 14-26,1975, 14 JNJ 000329832 - JNJ 000329833 15 53 Distribution - Talc Advisory 350 Group, 16 JNJ 000026899 - JNJ 000026902 17 54 May 3, 1972, Johnson & Johnson, 351 from T.H. Shelley to Dr. R.A. 18 Fuller, JNJ 000257622 19 55 "Translocation of Inhaled Asbestos 360 20 Fibers from the Lung to Other Tissues," Y. Suzuki, American 21 Journal of Industrial Medicine 22 56 "Is There Transplacental Transfer 363 of Asbestos? A Study of40 23 Stillborn Infants," Abida K. Haque, Pediatric Pathology & 24 Laboratory Medicine41 57 Mark Lanier handwritten 367 25 demonstratives 1 57 Johnson & Johnson Limited, 18th 378 August, 1972, W.R. Dean letter to 2 Dr. A. Goudie, FDP000000320 - FDP000000324 58 Timeline of Talc Testing -Dr. 382 4 Pooley 5 59 "Talcum Powder and Cancer, What is 387 talcum powder?" American Cancer 6 Society 7 60 Definition of Asbestos, 394 JNJAZ55 000009029- 8 JNJAZ55_000009041 9 61 Phillippe Douillet letter from 399 J.W. Swanson, Acting Associate 10 Commissioner for Regulatory Affairs 11 62 University College, Cardiff, Dr. 403 12 F.D. Pooley, Department of Mineral Exploitation, Report of Two Simple 13 Laboratory Tests for the indication and Concentration of 14 Chrysotile Asbestos from Toilet Talc, 15 JNJAZ55 000007383 - JNJAZ55_000007405 16 63 Background, Personal and 404 17 Confidential, JNJ 000270497 - JNJ 000270499 18 64 E-mail from Eric Turner to Rich 435 19 Zazenski, 20 December 2001, IMERYS 239883 20 65 September 21,1971, Johnson & 459 21 Johnson, letter to R. SchafFner, Ph.D., from W. Nashed, Ph.D., 22 JNJAZ55 000012649- JNJAZ55 000012651 23 24 (Exhibits attached to the deposition.) 25 Page 62 Page 64 1 2 CERTIFICATE..................................... 463 3 ACKNOWLEDGMENT OF DEPONENT... 4 ERRATA........................................... 466 5 LAWYER'S N O TES.................................467 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 63 Page 65 1 MR. LANIER: Okay. All the 2 protective orders and anybody's 3 anything applies to this. I have no 4 plans on disseminating this stuff. If 5 anything is subject to a protective 6 order, then - I'm going to use some 7 documents from the Ingham case that 8 are Imerys documents, but we'll use 9 the Ingham protective order. And 10 there's another protective order for 11 the Ratcliff case, and I'll honor that 12 as well. 13 MR. BICKS: And there are a lot 14 of people and also people who are in 15 other rooms that are with you, I 16 assume you'll hold them to that? 17 MR. LANIER: Yes, I will hold 18 them to that. I won't let David go 19 berserk-oid. 20 MR. BICKS: So that means David 21 Egilman is agreeing to be bound by the 22 protective order? 23 MR. LANIER: I don't know about 24 that, but I'll do the best I can. 25 Yes, he signed it, so he has agreed to 4 (Pages 62 to 65) Golkow Technologies, Inc. - 1.877.370.DEPS Frederick Pooley, Ph.D. Page 66 Page 68 1 be bound by it. Joan works with him, 1 Q. Is that a place where you spent 2 so she's the local Egil-maniac. 2 most of your life? 3 VIDEOGRAPHER: Okay. We are 3 A. Yes, I've been in Cardiff now 4 now on the record. My name is Henry 4 for 55 years, and I have strong family 5 Marte. I'm a videographer for Golkow 5 connections to Wales, although I was brought 6 Litigation Services. Today's is 6 up for 12,14 years in London before I moved 7 February 1, 2018, and the time is 7 back to Wales. 8 9:31 a.m. 8 . Q. And tell us how old you are. 9 This videotaped deposition is 9 A. I'm --I will be 79 in a day or 10 being held at 51 West 52nd Street, New 10 so. 11 York, New York, in the matter of 11 Q. All right. So your birthday is 12 Ratcliff versus BorgWamer Morse Tec, 12 coming up? 13 LLC. 13 A. Yes. 14 The deponent today is Dr. Fred 14 Q. All right. So we'll try to get 15 Pooley. All appearances will be noted 15 you home for your birthday. 16 on the stenographic record. 16 Walk us through --and you're 17 Will the court reporter please 17 Dr. Pooley. Are you a doctor? 18 administer the oath to the witness. 18 A. Yes. Ph.D., yeah. 19 19 Q. But not a medical doctor? 20 FREDERICK POOLEY, Ph.D., 20 A. No. 21 of lawful age, having been first duly sworn 21 Q. All right. And tell us, 22 to tell the truth, the whole truth and 22 Dr. Pooley, about your educational 23 nothing but the truth, deposes and says on 23 background. 24 behalf of the Defendant Johnson & Johnson, as 24 A. Well, I attended what you might 25 follows: 25 call high school in London called --it was a Page 67 Page 69 1 DIRECT EXAMINATION 1 grammar school called St. Marylebone Grammar 2 QUESTIONS BY MR. BICKS: 2 School until I was 17 years of age and took 3 Q. Good morning, Dr. Pooley. 3 my exams and graduated, as you do. I didn't 4 A. Good morning. 4 go to university with the rest of my friends. 5 Q. Can I ask you to please 5 I decided to - 1wanted to be a mining 6 introduce yourself to the folks who may see 6 engineer, and so I left and obtained a job 7 this on a video? 7 with what was called the National Coal Board, 8 A. I'm Frederick David Pooley. 8 which is the national mining company in the 9 I'm a now retired professor from the 9 UK, mining coal. And so I moved back to 10 university in Cardiff, Cardiff University in 10 Wales to - close to my family there and 11 Wales. And I've been involved in dust 11 started work as a miner. 12 particle research for a period of about 12 Q. So you actually had been a coal 13 60 years, and I'm here today to give you as 13 miner? 14 much information as I can about the products 14 A. Yes. For two--two and a half 15 which are to be talked about. 15 years, yes. 16 Q. Yeah. 16 Q. And what kind of a coal mine 17 And you mentioned Cardiff, 17 were you in? Tell us what that was about. 18 Wales. Just tell us where is that. 18 A. Oh, it was a mine called 19 A. Well, if you look at a map of 19 Oakdale Colliery. It's about 25 miles north 20 the United Kingdom, it's the little bit 20 of Cardiff. And so on every working day I 21 that's sticking out to the left between 21 used to turn up and descend half a mile down 22 England and Ireland. And it's just a small 22 to my workplace. 23 population, two and a half million, you know, 23 Q. And you said you were a coal 24 but very nationalistic and proud of their 24 miner for about two years? 25 heritage as well. 25 A. Yeah, about two and a half 5 (Pages 66 to 69) Golkow Technologies, Inc. - 1.877.370.DEPS Frederick Pooley, Ph.D. Page 70 Page 72 1 because then I also when I was in university, 1 bachelor's degree in mining engineering. And 2 I used to in my vacations go back and work in 2 I --then after obtaining that, I stayed on 3 the mine to earn cash to keep body and soul 3 in the department to study separation of fine 4 together, as it were. 4 particles research, and I obtained a master's 5 Q. Yeah. 5 degree and eventually a Ph.D. 6 And in terms of kind of age and 6 Q. And after you got your Ph.D., 7 things like that, how old were you when you 7 tell us what you did. What jobs did you 8 were doing that? 8 have? 9 A. Well, I started I was 17, just 9 A. Well, I was thinking of going 10 over, and I left - 1 finished in the mines 10 to South Africa to become a coal miner, but I 11 when I was about 20. 11 would be - 1had married and I was 12 (Pooley Exhibit 1 marked for 12 offered --because I was studying fine 13 identification.) 13 particles there for my research, I had by in 14 QUESTIONS BY MR. BICKS: 14 the last year of my research contacted or 15 Q. And we have over there -- 15 been contacted by the Medical Research 16 Carrie can pass to you --we have a copy of 16 Council in Cardiff. They had a research unit 17 your resume, and I'm just going to ask you 17 there called the Pneumoconiosis Research 18 that you just have that in front of you. 18 Unit. It was a very well-known organization. 19 A. Sure. 19 And that was studying the disease, dust 20 Q. And 'tell us, this is the first 20 disease, in coal miners and also diseases due 21 page of your resume, is it not? 21 to exposure to dust from other sources, 22 A. Yes, it is. 22 asbestos, et cetera. 23 Q. And if we had the full resume 23 Anyway, they approached me 24 there, you have a bunch of articles and list 24 because they knew that I was doing some work 25 of research papers and things like that? 25 on examining and visualizing fine particles, Page 71 Page 73 1 A. Oh, yeah. Yes. 1 and they were having problems in identifying 2 Q. All right. And with 2 and locating asbestos fibers in disease 3 Mr. Lanier's agreement, I'll substitute that 3 cases. And so I had worked up and was 4 in at a break and we'll put in the full 4 performing analyses for them of disease 5 resume. 5 cases. And so they said they didn't want to 6 On your resume here, I see your 6 lose me, so as soon as I got my Ph.D., they 7 academic qualifications, and can you give us 7 arranged for the Medical Research Council to 8 some detail about where you went to school 8 pay for me to stay in the university as a 9 after you were working as a coal miner? 9 research fellow. And I was working --I 10 A. Well, I was qualified to go to 10 started work sort of full time on their 11 university and what the company that I was 11 dust-related problems, disease problems. 12 working for, the nationalized coal company, 12 Q. And at University of Wales, 13 they were training me to become a mining 13 have you spent some of your life being a 14 engineer within their organization, but they 14 teacher? 15 said that you can go to university and we'll 15 A. Well, what happened after a 16 pay for you to go. So I had a nice 16 year or so, the head of the department, 17 scholarship and so off I went to take up a 17 though, as I was working in decided that I 18 mining education, and I chose Cardiff to go 18 could sort of --I should teach, and so they 19 to. 19 appointed me as a lecturer within the 20 Q. And tell us what degrees you 20 department. And from there on ~ and I 21 got and also describe to us what Cardiff is. 21 carried on with the research I was doing. 22 A. Cardiff is the capital of 22 And from then on, I became a senior lecturer 23 Wales. 23 and a reader. A reader is a research 24 Q. Yeah. 24 position within the university. And 25 A. And the - - 1was studying for a 25 eventually I was awarded a chair, became a 6 (Pages 70 to 73) Golkow Technologies, Inc. 1.877.370.DEPS Frederick Pooley, Ph.D. Page 74 Page 76 1 professor in the university. 1 Q. Have you consulted and helped 2 Q. And who would you teach and 2 different organizations from time to time? 3 what would you teach them? 3 A. Well, in a sense that people 4 A. Well, it was on the-mining 4 knew what sort of work I was doing in Cardiff 5 courses because in mining dust and health 5 on the grapevine in the medical field, so 6 problems, et cetera, was a major subject of 6 I've been involved since -- many 7 the course; you know, how to take dust 7 organizations, you know. 8 samples and how to analyze them and determine 8 Q. And on your resume, you list 9 whether they are not --they were -- 9 the British Medical Research Council. 10 represented a problem in terms of workforce 10 A. Uh-huh. 11 exposure. 11 Q. And I think you described that 12 Q. And on your resume I counted 12 for us, but maybe tell us exactly what that 13 that you have about 130 papers that you've 13 is. 14 written or been someone who had a part in 14 A. It's the governing body of 15 writing. 1-5 medicine in the UK. You know, it's the one 16 Is that about right? 16 that controls doctors and hospitals, et 17 A. Yes. Yeah. 17 cetera, and it funds all the government 18 Q. And do you also have research 18 medical research in the --in the countries. 19 papers that you've written? 19 It's a very big organization. 20 A. Yeah. Well, it wasn't just 20 Q. And does that research council 21 dust - dust disease, et cetera, that I was 21 come to you to help get information from you 22 performing research work on. I was also 22 on certain problems? 23 performing work on min - other mineral 23 A. Yeah. Well, whenever there was 24 particles. So I had papers relating to the 24 a problem related to exposure to dust or, you 25 biological interaction of minerals and 25 know, asbestos problems, for example, yeah, Page 75 Page 77 1 bacteria, et cetera. 1 then they caught me on to and they paid for 2 Q. And do you have patents? 2 research to be performed. 3 A. Yes, a lot of the work that we 3 Q. And have you also done work for 4 were doing had very interesting facets which 4 something called the World Health 5 were industry applicable. So we worked on 5 Organization? 6 several processes; one for recovering gold 6 A. Yes, via the International 7 from gold ores using bacteria and treatment 7 Agency for Research on Cancer in Lyon, they 8 of waste and recovery o f heavy metals, et 8 funded for several years projects in the 9 cetera. And the university was very keen on 9 department where we were looking at, well, 10 sort of trying to make money out of my 10 things like dust in Turkey, for example, and 11 research and so they patented or paid for the 11 manmade mineral fiber dusts and diseases 12 patenting of several parts of the work I was 12 related to manmade mineral fibers. 13 involved with. 13 So we were involved in going, 14 Q. And give us a rough number of 14 taking samples, characterizing materials to 15 how many patents you have. 15 try and sort out what was the property of the 16 A. Oh, well, the thing about 16 dust that was causing the health problems. 17 patents is you not only patent them in your 17 Q. And what about on your resume, 18 own country but you patent them in countries 18 I see that you did work with NIOSH in the 19 where it's likely to be applicable. 19 United States and the EPA. Tell us a little 20 Q. Yes. 20 bit about that. 21 A. So about 30 or 40 patents. 21 A. Well, there again, the - I 22 Q. All right. And you mentioned, 22 said people seem to know that I was working 23 I think, something called the Medical 23 with dust and so I was approached many times 24 Research Council. 24 by NIHS {sic} from -- at Morgantown, they 25 A. Yes. 25 have a research lab there. To give you an 7 (Pages 74 to 77) Golkow Technologies, Inc. - 1.877.370.DEPS Frederick Pooley, Ph.D. Page 78 Page 80 1 example, I looked and determined dust 1 the medical school at the Heath Hospital in 2 contents of workers from the Libby mine in 2 Cardiff. And so I joined the pathology 3 Montana and reported back. I performed 3 department there and I worked there for ten 4 examination of disease cases from asbestos 4 years continuing the same vein of dust 5 plants in North Carolina, et cetera. 5 research. And I actually finished that 6 Q. And you've done a lot as you've 6 appointment last year in March after 50 years 7 told us. If I asked you what of the things 7 in the university. 8 you've accomplished you're most proud of, 8 And again, they said they 9 what would that be? 9 didn't want to lose contact with me and I 10 A. Oh, my family. My children. 10 could carry on doing what I wanted to do and 11 Q. And tell us just quickly about 11 I have a lab. And so I'm now classified as 12 your family. 12 an honorary consultant to the Department of 13 A. Well, my oldest son is an 13 Cellular Pathology in Cardiff. 14 American citizen. He lives in Seattle and, 14 Q. And you mentioned that you have 15 you know, he's a very good engineer. He's 15 a lab. 16 developing the new - part of the new sewage 16 A. Uh-huh. 17 system in Seattle. And my youngest son is a 17 Q. Tell us about your lab and very 18 mining engineer. He followed me in the 18 basically what kinds of things go on in that 19 profession. And he apparently runs a company 19 laboratory. 20 in Johannesburg, a mining-based consultancy 20 A. Well, over the years, we've 21 company. 21 continually worked in the dust research field 22 Q. And do you have a daughter? 22 looking at particles, characterizing them, et 23 A. A daughter, yeah. And she's -- 23 cetera. 24 she works in Cardiff and lives in Cardiff and 24 And, in fact, the laboratory 25 she's doing very well because she's --I 25 that we set up, and it's still there, it Page 7 9 Page 81 1 don't know what you call them. She's a 1 handles analytical tasks from the government. 2 property developer. Although she has a job 2 We have a system called the Coroner's Court 3 as a teacher, which --and she's doing very 3 in the UK, if anybody suspected of dying from 4 well as well. 4 a exposure to a dust, you know, something 5 Q. And how many grandkids do you 5 like asbestos, then the coroner can sort of 6 have? 6 direct the pathologist looking - who looked 7 A. Seven. 7 at the case to send samples to Cardiff to 8 Q. All right. And tell us what 8 have examinations of the tissue made to 9 you do today. 9 establish what particles, how much, et 10 A. Well, when my - in the UK we 10 cetera, is involved in the death of the 11 have a retirement age, 65, so I was at the 11 individual. 12 university and I was coming up 65, so they 12 And that has built up so that 13 said, you know, you can't work on. You know, 13 we have a sort of --we look at something 14 by law you can't work on past 65. And so I 14 like 4 or 500 mesothelioma cases a year going 15 became a research professor, you know, carry 15 through that laboratory. So I look at one or 16 on with the work I was doing. I was still 16 two now and again, the interesting ones, but 17 teaching actually. And I did that for a 17 I'm there to make sure they sort of -- 18 couple of years and then they said, "Well, 18 they're doing it properly. 19 you know, it's --you're 67." 19 Q. And from time to time have you 20 So but the medical school in 20 been involved in litigation that relates to 21 Cardiff, the Welsh National School of 21 asbestos in your career? 22 Medicine, knew I was going to leave and they 22 A. Oh, yes. 23 wanted the facility to look, to examine dust 23 Q. All right. And in the 24 particles, tissues, et cetera. 24 laboratory you mentioned, we're here today in 25 So they persuaded me to move to 25 a case involving Johnson & Johnson. 8 (Pages 78 to 81) Golkow Technologies, Inc. 1.877.370.DEPS Frederick Pooley, Ph.D. Page 82 Page 84 1 You know that, right? 1 samples that I received were sort of late 2 A. Uh-huh. 2 '70s, early '80s. 3 Q. And we're going to talk today 3 Q. And did Johnson & Johnson pay 4 about testing that you did. 4 you for the work that you did? 5 Was that done in your 5 A. The - well, I got paid a 6 laboratory that you just told us about? 6 consultancy if I sort of wrote a report and 7 A. Yes. 7 presented data. The university was paid for 8 Q. All right. And do --as a 8 the use of the laboratory, et cetera, you 9 general matter, do people and companies come 9 know. 10 to you when they want to learn about mineral 10 Q. And in terms o f you coming here 11 questions? 11 today from Wales, have we agreed to pay you 12 A. Well, yes, we get a lot of 12 for your time? 13 requests, as it were, you know, from industry 13 A. Yes. 14 in general and, you know, and other 14 Q. All right. And in the work 15 countries. I have a lot of international 15 that you did over those 1970s into the '80s, 16 contacts. 16 did you get to know the people at Johnson & 17 Q. And we're going back in time, 17 Johnson? 18 probably 40, 50 years ago, but did Johnson & 18 A. Oh, yes. Yes. Very well, 19 Johnson approach you in the early 1970s to 19 yeah. 20 test the talc that was used in Johnson & 20 Q. And do you remember any of 21 Johnson baby powder? 21 those people that you worked with? 22 A. Yes, somebody came to the 22 A. Well, there was the first chap 23 university, followed up, wanted - made an 23 that contacted me was a Dr. Rolle from the 24 appointment and then we chatted about a 24 applications lab in New Brunswick. And then 25 problem - oh, wasn't a problem, per se. 25 there were a whole bunch of engineers, et Page 83 Page 85 1 They just wanted a more detailed 1 cetera, at that lab, senior engineers, who 2 characterization of the products that they 2 were very interested in what I was doing, you 3 were using, the sources o f the talc. 3 know, and wanted to know what I was finding, 4 Q. And did you end up doing 4 et cetera. 5 testing for Johnson & Johnson? 5 Q. Many of the folks that you 6 A. Oh, yes, extensive. Yes, 6 dealt with, I can tell you, are no longer 7 extensive testing. 7 with us. 8 Q. And did that include looking at 8 A. Yes, I know. Yeah. 9 an ore deposit in Italy? 9 Q. And I'm going to ask you in 10 A. Yes. 10 your dealings were you ever able to form a 11 Q. And did it also include looking 11 view as to whether or not these people at 12 at a talc deposit in Vermont? 12 Johnson & Johnson who you work with were 13 A. Yes. 13 concerned and wanted to make sure that the 14 Q. Tell us how extensive was the 14 talc that they were using in baby powder 15 testing that you performed. 15 could be used safely? 16 A. Well, the concern, as far as 16 A. Oh, yes, because the whole 17 the powders were concerned was, you know, 17 thing about the talcs is that - strange that 18 were there any contaminants with the talc 18 their main concern is that these talcs never 19 which could cause a likely problem if people 19 got contaminated with bacteria, et cetera, 20 used the talc topically, you know. 20 and could cause a problem. But they were 21 Q. And do you remember for how 21 also concerned because impurities, quartz, 22 many years you performed testing on these 22 possibly asbestos, might -- you know, might 23 talc deposits? 23 appear in these products. And they were 24 A. Around --I simply started 24 buying their powders from other 25 around about 1970, '71, and I think the last 25 organizations, so they had very little 9 (Pages 82 to 85) Golkow Technologies, Inc. 1.877.370.DEPS Frederick Pooley, Ph.D. Page 86 Page 88 1 control, you know, internationally over the 1 you want to put it that way, associated with 2 source of their materials. 2 that. They produce dust and they're exposed 3 Q. I asked you a little bit about 3 to dust and they have pneumoconiosis cases 4 Italy. 4 where the dust exposure has been severe, but 5 Did you visit the mine in Italy 5 there's no major concern about controlling 6 where Johnson & Johnson at one point sourced 6 the dust at that time. It's probably --it 7 talc from? 7 may have changed now, but... 8 A. Yes, the Val Chisone mine. 8 Q. In the testing that you did on 9 Yeah. Yeah. 9 the two ore deposits and also baby powder 10 Q. And did you go there in person? 10 products with talc in them, were you ever 11 A. Oh, yes. Yep. Very 11 able to determine whether or not either the 12 interesting visit, yeah. 12 ore or any of the baby powder had asbestos in 13 Q. And you mentioned you called it 13 it? 14 the Val Chisone mine? 14 A. Well, we were - part of a 15 A. Yeah. 15 visit like that to take samples is to look 16 Q. Can you describe the area that 16 around to see if you can see anything which 17 that's located? 17 might represent an asbestos-type contaminant. 18 A. It's in the north of Italy, 18 And although looking at the rock specimens we 19 just not far from the border with France, 19 brought back, there were amphophile minerals, 20 just where the Alps start to develop. So it 20 but there was no obvious asbestos visible in 21 was very, very mountainous, very picturesque, 21 the mine. 22 and it was very difficult to get to the mine 22 Q. And after all the testing that 23 actually. They had a ski lift installed 23 you did, were you able to ever find asbestos 24 there to take workers in to work when the 24 in the samples or the deposit samples that 25 snow is on the ground. 25 you looked at? Page 87 Page 89 1 Q. And did you also visit a talc 1 A. No. Mineral types, yeah, 2 deposit in Windsor, Vermont, where Johnson & 2 amphophile mineral, but no asbestos, no. 3 Johnson at one point sourced talc from? 3 Q. And were you experienced with 4 A. Yes. 4 the test methods that you used? 5 Q. And were you there personally? 5 A. To examine these specimens? 6 A. Oh, yes. Yeah. 6 Q. Yes. 7 Q. And did you test the ore 7 A. Oh, yes, I was, you know. 8 deposit in Vermont as well as product, baby 8 Q. Do you know of anyone who had 9 powder, that used the talc from that ore? 9 more experience in the 1970s than you in 10 A. Yes. As with the Italian mine, 10 testing the ore deposits that you tested? 11 we - 1paid a visit there and arranged a 11 A. I don't know, but there were 12 sample myself, underground to take samples, 12 probably people around who would have done a 13 to look at representative impurities that 13 similar job if it was presented to them, but, 14 might get into the talc product. 14 you know, we're few and far between. 15 Q. And you told us that you were a 15 Q. Let me talk about the deposit 16 coal miner, so I take it you have experience 16 in Vermont, the Windsor area. You were 17 in mines, right? 17 familiar with that? 18 A. Yes. Lots of it, yeah. 18 A. Yeah. 19 Q. And when you visited these ore 19 (Pooley Exhibit 2 marked for 20 deposits in Italy and Vermont, did you ever 20 identification.) 21 wear a respirator? 21 QUESTIONS BY MR. BICKS: 22 A. No. No. 22 Q. And let me show you what we'll 23 Q. Why not? 23 mark as Exhibit 2, if Carrie can show you 24 A. Well, the mining of deposits 24 that. 25 like talc, there is not a lot of disease, if 25 This is an article, I take it, 10 (Pages 86 to 89) Golkow Technologies, Inc. - 1.877.370.DEPS Frederick Pooley, Ph.D. Page 90 Page 92 1 that you are familiar with? 1 samples here. 2 A. Yeah. I have seen this, yes. 2 Q. And this is kind of --if we 3 Q. And this is --there's some 3 start the story, this is -- appears to be one 4 people on here: Maryanne Boundy, Karen Gold, 4 of the first things that you did; is that 5 Kenneth Martin, William Burgess and John 5 right? 6 Dement. 6 A. Yeah, that's right. 7 In your experience in dealing 7 Q. And if we look at this 8 with dust and mines and so forth, are these 8 document, and I'm highlighting stuff on the 9 names familiar to you? 9 screen here, it says right here that these 10 A. Well, the one name is, John 10 are identity samples submitted to Fred Pooley 11 Dement. I know him quite well. We've 11 at University College? 12 actually published papers together. 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. Yeah. 13 Q. That's you, right? 14 A. Yeah, but-- 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. And what about here, the 15 Q. All right. And it indicates 16 Department of Environmental Health Sciences, 16 here that these are samples of Vermont 17 Harvard School of Public Health in 17 production talc, Windsor 66, which is used in 18 Massachusetts, have you heard of that 18 the manufacture of Johnson's baby powder. 19 organization? 19 Do you see that? 20 A. Yes. 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. And I'm focusing here when 21 Q. Are you familiar with the 22 we're talking about Vermont, and I'm 22 numbers Windsor 66? 23 highlighting here: "Since geological studies 23 A. Yeah, I'm familiar with Windsor 24 dating back from the early 1900s have shown 24 Minerals. The 66, yes. 25 that the Vermont talc deposits contain no 25 Q. And you'll see that there's a Page 91 Page 93 1 asbestos." 2 Do you see that? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. And is that a view that in the 5 work that you did over the years that we'll 6 talk about that you --was consistent with 7 what you concluded? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. And I'd like to show you 10 some --a study that you did, and I'm going 11 to ask you some questions about it. 12 A. Okay. 13 (Pooley Exhibit 3 marked for 14 identification.) 15 QUESTIONS BY MR. BICKS: 16 Q. And I think this is the third 17 exhibit, and you have this in front of you, 18 Dr. Pooley. 19 A. Yeah. Yeah, I've got it. 20 Q. And this is a report that you 21 wrote? 22 A. Uh-huh. 23 Q. And you did several reports on 24 talc out o f the Vermont deposit, right? 25 A. Yes, I looked at quite a few 1 description here of where these came from and 2 it says here that, "Our quality assurance 3 division takes a sampling at random from a 4 production line during each shift." 5 And as somebody who deals with 6 talc testing, are you familiar with kind of 7 how that works? 8 A. Yes, they quality control, you 9 know. Yeah. 10 Q. And if we look later on, we 11 have here your report on these samples, 12 right? 13 A. Yep. 14 Q. And we can see here that you 15 looked at ten samples, right? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. And in terms of what you were 18 doing in this report, it says that you were 19 doing analysis performed, were implemented to 20 establish the presence of asbestos fiber of 21 the chrysotile or amphophile types. 22 Do you see that? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. And is that analysis that you 25 did? 11 (Pages 90 to 93) Golkow Technologies, Inc. 1.877.370.DEPS Frederick Pooley, Ph.D. Page 94 Page 96 1 A. Yes. 1 any dust associated with these materials. 2 Q. And for our jury, can you just 2 And obviously if you want to look at dust 3 give them a briefing on amphophile and 3 particles, you've got to image them, and the 4 chrysotile types. 4 only way you can see most of these harmful 5 A. Well, those two terms cover the 5 fibers, asbestos fibers, for example, is by 6 major group --mineral groupings from which 6 using high magnification equipment such as 7 commercial asbestos has been produced. The 7 the electron microscope. 8 serpentine rocks produced chrysotile fibers 8 Q. And is that equipment that you 9 and the amphophile mineral types, various 9 yourself use? 10 amphophile mineral types, but they occur in 10 A. Oh, yes. Yes. The department 11 other rock masses. But the industrial 11 I worked at in Cardiff, we had an electron 12 asbestos as produced from both of those 12 microscope, a very early one, from about 13 sources, mainly chrysotile, 90-odd percent of 13 1955. So I've been brought up in my student 14 all asbestos ever used is of the chrysotile 14 days and research days with the ability to 15 type, but there have been small quantities of 15 access an electron microscope. 16 amphophile-type asbestoses produced from 16 Q. And I want to go to the part of 17 South Africa. Even the United States had 17 your report where you talk about your 18 amphophile asbestos production facilities. 18 conclusions. 19 Q. And in terms o f the tests that 19 A. Uh-huh. 20 you did, there's something called X-ray. 20 Q. And this is on page 8. And you 21 Is that a test that you did? 21 see right here that it says "Conclusions"? 22 A. Yes. Well, these are ore 22 A. Right. 23 minerals. 23 Q. Are you with me? 24 Q. Yeah. 24 And you looked at ten samples, 25 A. You know, and so X-ray 25 right? Page 95 Page 97 1 diffraction is a technique used to identify 1 A. Yes. 2 minerals. 2 Q. And you say here they "were 3 Q. Yeah. 3 found to be free of chrysotile asbestos 4 A. And has been done --has been 4 fiber," and then you say, "with the exception 5 used for many years, and so there's quite a 5 of one small chrysotile fibril"? 6 large reference collection of X-ray 6 A. Yes. 7 diffraction data to which you can refer once 7 Q. And you go on to say that, 8 you've analyzed samples with an X-ray 8 "Considering that in most laboratories a 9 diffraction - X-ray diffractometer to check 9 background contamination of one fibril per EM 10 whether your mineral sample is the same as 10 field is normal, the chrysotile content of 11 quoted. 11 the samples examined can be considered nil." 12 Q. Yeah. 12 Are you with me? 13 And so you did the X-ray 13 A. Yes. 14 diffraction? 14 Q. So do you conclude here that 15 A. Uh-huh. 15 there was no chrysotile asbestos in the 16 Q. And then you also did something 16 samples you looked at? 17 here, electron microscope, and here you talk 17 MR. LANIER: Objection. Form. 18 about the preparation? 18 THE WITNESS: Yes. 19 A. Yeah. 19 QUESTIONS BY MR. BICKS: 20 Q. But is that also a testing 20 Q. All right. And you also here 21 method that you used? 21 say something that I thought was interesting 22 A. Well, the whole exercise of 22 to me as I learn about this. That you refer 23 looking at these specimens is to try and 23 here to no diffraction patterns were present 24 establish what sort of particles, what sort 24 which corresponded to diffraction patterns 25 of mineral particles, are going to end up in 25 from amphophile asbestos fibers. 12 (Pages 94 to 97) Golkow Technologies, Inc. 1.877.370.DEPS Frederick Pooley, Ph.D. Page 98 Page 100 1 Can you explain to us what that 1 explained, you know, what the geology, if you 2 is talking about? 2 like, of the orebody because it was a 3 A. Well, after examining the 3 slightly different mine to the Italian, as it 4 samples with the X-ray equipment, we couldn't 4 was a mass --what we call a massive talc 5 match any of the information to 5 deposit. Talc didn't occur in seams. And I 6 amphophile-related mineral in a reference, 6 arranged with him and he collected for me and 7 international reference, sections. 7 conveyed out of the mine samples of rock from 8 Q. And what do you conclude here 8 the talc-producing zones in the mine. 9 about whether or not the tests that you use 9 Q. And if you look at this report, 10 answer the question of is there any kind of 10 it indicates that you got samples from 11 asbestos in these samples? 11 something called the ore footwall, the 12 A. While there were --it 12 hanging wall rocks and minerals found in 13 didn't --they didn't produce any results, 13 these samples. 14 which indicated that there was asbestos 14 Tell us what that is. 15 present. 15 A. Well, the main talc mineral 16 Q. All right. And you did many of 16 source is enclosed above and below by other 17 these tests over time, right? 17 rock's strata and taking samples from the 18 A. Oh, hundreds, yes. 18 hanging wall refers to the roof, really, and 19 Q. All right. And when you see 19 the footwall refers to the strata underneath 20 these diffraction patterns that you refer to 20 the talc deposit. And but if there was any 21 here that do not conform to what you see as a 21 contamination going to occur in the talc rock 22 standard pattern taken from amphophile or 22 once it had been taken out, it was likely to 23 chrysotile asbestos, what does that tell you? 23 come from the roof or the floor, you know, 24 A. It tells you that there are -- 24 material falling into the production zone or 25 there are no minerals of that type present or 25 being scooped up off the floor of the working Page 99 Page 101 1 detectable in the sample and so that you're 1 area. 2 unlikely to find particles of those ~ of 2 So that gave us sort of ~ gave 3 those minerals in any dust formed from 3 you a picture, if you like, if that's ground 4 degradation of the material. 4 up with the talc, what sort of minerals are 5 Q. And do you think you did good 5 likely to occur in the ground mixture, you 6 testing here and used the best test methods 6 know, and their origin, did they come from 7 that you know of? 7 the roof or the floor, or were they in the 8 A. Yeah. The best that were 8 talc. Because we were also taking samples of 9 available at this time, yeah. 9 the talc itself so we could compare the 10 Q. Yeah. And you ultimately 10 three. 11 prepared a very detailed report on this. 11 Q. And ultimately --and we'll go 12 Do you remember? 12 through it --did you reach a conclusion 13 A. Of samples from the Vermont 13 about whether or not there was any asbestos 14 mine? 14 in the samples that you looked at at Vermont? 15 Q. Yes. 15 A. Yes. There was no visible 16 A. Yes. 16 asbestos material in the rocks. So when we 17 (Pooley Exhibit 4 marked for 17 examined the rock specimens, we did find some 18 identification.) 18 sample amphophile mineral in the rock, but it 19 QUESTIONS BY MR. BICKS: 19 wasn't asbestiform. 20 Q. And we're going to hand you, I 20 Q. And I want to ask you about 21 think, what is Exhibit 4 and have you tell us 21 that because as I look here, you list here 22 what this is. 22 the samples that you looked at -- 23 A. Why I went to the Windsor 23 A. Uh-huh. 24 Minerals mine in Vermont and with the mine 24 Q. - right? 25 manager, took a tour of the workings. And he 25 And you can see that we've got 13 (Pages 98 to 101) Golkow Technologies, Inc. - 1.877.370.DEPS Frederick Pooley, Ph.D. Page 102 Page 104 1 14 samples, right? 1 MR. LANIER: Objection. Form. 2 A. Right. 2 THE WITNESS: These are just an 3 Q. And one o f them says 3 association o f minerals occurring in 4 "amphophile in talc specimen." 4 that sample. When you look at a rock, 5 Do you see that? 5 it's like looking at a fruit cake; 6 A. Sure. 6 you've got lots of bits and pieces 7 Q. And just when you see the word 7 mixed in, different fruit, et cetera. 8 "amphophile," that doesn't mean that it's 8 You know, they are just particles of 9 asbestos, right? 9 different minerals. 10 A. Oh, no. No. 10 QUESTIONS BY MR. BICKS: 11 Q. All right. And I want to talk 11 Q. And let me go to your 12 and ask you a little bit about that sample in 12 conclusion. And this is a report. It's a 13 your report. 13 48-page report, right? 14 MR. LANIER: Object to the form 14 A. Yes. 15 on that previous question. 15 Q. And the conclusion is here. 16 QUESTIONS BY MR. BICKS: 16 Do you see where I am? 17 Q. This is the V9 sample that we 17 A. Just a --yes, 48. Yep. Yep. 18 were talking about. 18 Q. And I'm highlighting "here the 19 A. Sure. 19 amphophile minerals were found in discrete 20 Q. And we actually have a picture 20 location and not disseminate throughout the 21 of it here. 21 talc ore" -- 22 Do you see that? I don't know 22 A. Yes. 23 if it's --can you see the screen where you 23 Q. --"and were not asbestiform in 24 are? 24 character." 25 A. Yes. I've got -- 25 Can you explain what that Page 103 Page 105 1 Q. Perfect. 1 means? 2 A. Yeah. 2 A. Well, as it says, the -- these 3 Q. And do you see that? 3 amphophile specimens that we found were 4 And this was the sample where 4 dotted around, but they weren't contiguous - 5 it says there was amphophile in the talc 5 continuous throughout the talc deposit. They 6 specimen, and then you look at it and you 6 were very obvious in terms of their color 7 say --you talk about something called 7 difference, et cetera. Because that's one of 8 actinolite, and you say it's non-asbestiform. 8 the main sort of sampling techniques, you 9 Can you tell us what that 9 know, is it a different color, does it appear 10 means? 10 different, does it appear fibrous or 11 A. Well, normally commercial 11 whatever. 12 asbestos, amphophile asbestos in particular, 12 And these, as they were 13 normally occurs as veins or seams. And if 13 examined, taken back to the lab and crushed, 14 you were to break a piece of that away and 14 they didn't produce any fibers which could be 15 look at it, even with the naked eye, it would 15 construed as being asbestos. 16 appear to be very fibrous. And when you 16 Q. And then you say here that 17 prepare samples of that, for examination in 17 "serpentine mineral was found in the 18 an optical microscope, this fibrous texture, 18 specimens located at the center of the 19 if you like, is very, very obvious. And 19 orebody but no fibrous components were 20 there is no indication of a fibrous texture 20 observed"? 21 in any of these photomicrographs o f the 21 A. That's right. 22 amphophile mineral. 22 Q. And what does that mean? 23 Q. And it's also just neat because 23 A. Well, the deposit had this 24 I think the colors are cool here. 24 serpentine mineral core and so that was 25 Tell us what this is. 25 sampled to find out whether or not the 14 (Pages 102 to 105) Golkow Technologies, Inc. 1.877.370.DEPS Frederick Pooley, Ph.D. Page 106 Page 108 1 serpentine mineral breakdown had produced 1 Q. And I want to focus right here 2 fibers of chrysotile. 2 on Vermont 66. That's the Windsor Vermont 3 Q. And in coming up with these 3 talc, right? 4 conclusions, did you reach a conclusion about 4 A. Yeah. Yes. 5 whether or not there was asbestos in any of 5 Q. And did you perform analysis on 6 these samples? 6 that talc? 7 A. Yeah, we didn't detect any 7 A. Yes. 8 asbestos in any of the amphophiles. 8 Q. And would that be with the same 9 Q. And did you use the testing 9 test that we talked about? 10 methods of the X-ray diffraction, the 10 A. That's correct, yes. 11 electron microscope and the optical 11 Q. All right. And this is your 12 microscopy? 12 sample 9, right? 13 A. Yes. 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. All right. And over tim e - 14 Q. And so if we go to the report, 15 and these conclusions that you just told us 15 we can see what you found. 16 about, in all the testing that you did over 16 Are you with me? 17 time, did you gain more confidence in your 17 A. Yeah. 18 conclusions? 18 Q. It says here that you find 19 A. Yes, I suppose so. Yeah. 19 97 percent talc with 2 percent chlorite and 20 (Pooley Exhibit 5 marked for 20 1 percent carbonate mineral, right? 21 identification.) 21 A. Yes. 22 QUESTIONS BY MR. BICKS: 22 Q. So do you see any kind of an 23 Q. Let me show you another report 23 amphophile or the like here? 24 that you did, and from time to time did you 24 A. No. In that test there was no 25 do reports on looking at international 25 amphophile detected. Page 107 Page 109 1 samples o f talc for Johnson & Johnson? 1 Q. And on your conclusion at the 2 A. Yes. I was sent samples from 2 end --you see here these are your 3 other countries. I didn't know whether they 3 conclusions. 4 were all Johnson & Johnson talcs that they 4 Are you with me? 5 used, but anyway, they came from other 5 A. Yes. 6 countries, sourced in other countries, and we 6 Q. And you state at the bottom 7 examined them to look at their purity and 7 here that "during the electron microscope 8 their mineralogy. 8 analysis of the samples, fibrous or lathlike 9 Q. And this is Exhibit 5 to your 9 particles were observed. These when analyzed 10 deposition. 10 were not found to be amphophile but talc 11 A. Uh-huh. 11 mineral. No chrysotile asbestos was observed 12 Q. And this is a report that you 12 on any of the samples." 13 did; is that right? 13 A. Yes. 14 A. Yes. 14 Q. And is that the conclusion that 15 Q. And if you look at the report, 15 you reached after doing the testing? 16 it shows you on the first page that you 16 A. Yes. 17 looked at a bunch of different samples. 17 Q. And to be specific here, were 18 Do you see that? 18 you actually doing testing yourself? 19 A. Yes. 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. And I have that down on the 20 Q. In other words, were there 21 screen here. 21 sometime in laboratories that people have 22 You look at samples really from 22 somebody else doing it, but were you actually 23 all different parts of the world; is that 23 doing it yourself? 24 right? 24 A. Yeah. 25 A. Yes. 25 Q. All right. And you were 15 (Pages 106 to 109) Golkow Technologies, Inc. 1.877.370.DEPS Frederick Pooley, Ph.D. Page 110 Page 112 1 familiar, are you not, with a company called 1 mine --Roger Miller was the Windsor Minerals 2 McCrone's? Are you not? 2 mine official, and I've seen articles by 3 A. Yes. 3 Dr. Millette and sort of work that he does, 4 Q. And did you deal during this 4 yes. 5 1970s time period with McCrone? 5 Q. And so you were looking at the 6 A. Yes. I visited their 6 Windsor --the ore from Windsor Minerals in 7 analytical setup in Chicago, but Walter 7 the 1970s, right? 8 McCrone, the guy who started the company, he 8 A. Right. 9 actually visited Cardiff several times. 9 Q. And this tells us that McCrone 10 (Pooley Exhibit 6 marked for 10 was working with Windsor also at kind of the 11 identification.) 11 same time period you were? 12 QUESTIONS BY MR. BICKS: 12 MR. LANIER: Objection. Form. 13 Q. And let me show you a McCrone 13 THE WITNESS: Yeah, a little 14 report. 14 later. 15 And during this time period, 15 QUESTIONS BY MR. BICKS: 16 there were multiple people and companies 16 Q. A little bit later? 17 looking at these deposits and trying to 17 A. Yeah. 18 identify minerals and so forth? 18 Q. And this letter says that 19 A. Sure. Yeah. 19 "since that date, we have continuously 20 Q. And was there exchanges of 20 monitored composite samples for Windsor using 21 information and people kind of talking 21 transmission electron microscopy, the most 22 together? 22 sensitive technique for fine asbestos 23 A. Yeah, about techniques. Not 23 fibers." 24 about samples, per se, because a lot of these 24 Do you see that? 25 were commercial samples and obviously there 25 A. Yes. Page 111 Page 113 1 was, you know, privacy involved. 1 Q. And were you also using that 2 Q. Yeah. 2 kind of technique? 3 A. But, yes, because McCrone's 3 A. Yes. 4 were interested in selling techniques on the 4 Q. And this letter tells us that 5 market, you know. 5 "the Illinois EPA wrote to Windsor Minerals 6 Q. And were they generally in your 6 as to the effect that they were satisfied 7 field and experience recognized as, you know, 7 that Windsor product is free of asbestos, 8 a good company of people of good experience 8 that has always been our opinion and 9 who had done this before? 9 continues to be our opinion based on 15 years 10 A. Yeah, very good optical 10 of closely examining this product." 11 microscopy setup. And also, you know, they 11 Do you see that? 12 developed into scan SEMs, you know, electron 12 A. Yes. 13 microscope equipment. 13 Q. And give or take, you were 14 Q. And let me show you this 14 looking at these talc samples and ore 15 exhibit, which is Exhibit 6 to your 15 deposits and also baby powder bottles with 16 deposition. 16 talc in them, right? 17 And this is a 1987 letter from 17 A. Yes, that's correct. 18 McCrone Associates. 18 Q. Roughly over this same time 19 Do you see that? 19 period; is that about right? 20 A. Yes. 20 A. Yep. Roughly, yeah. 21 Q. And you see the name Ian 21 Q. All right. And did you reach a 22 Stuart, Jim Millette, Roger Miller. 22 similar conclusion that over 15 years of work 23 Are any of these names familiar 23 that the Windsor product was free of asbestos 24 to you? 24 based on closely examining the product? 25 A. Yes. The Roger Miller was the 25 A. Yes. 16 (Pages 110 to 113) Golkow Technologies, Inc. - 1.877.370.DEPS Frederick Pooley, Ph.D. Page 114 Page 116 1 Q. All right. Let's talk a little 2 bit about Italy. 3 You went to Italy, right? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. And you prepared reports on 6 your visits. 7 Do you remember that? 8 A. Yes, I do. 9 Q. And we're going to give you 10 your visit report. 11 (Pooley Exhibit 7 marked for 12 identification.) 13 QUESTIONS BY MR. BICKS: 14 Q. Because it helps us figure out 15 in time where we are. 16 This tells us the date is the 17 30th o f September, 1971? 18 A. Yeah. 19 Q. And the title of this is "Talc 20 Product Safety and Purity Project." 21 Do you see that? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. And talc ore sampling? 24 A. Yeah. 25 Q. And that's you? 1 of any contamination of the talc product with 2 material which wasn't from the talc seam, as 3 it were. 4 There were also other concerns 5 about, you know, how hygenic was the 6 production facility because one of the 7 concerns they always had was whether or not 8 the talc was likely to become contaminated 9 with anything from the mine, oil, bacteria or 10 whatever, yeah. 11 Q. And this also says here that 12 you studied the ore finishing process. 13 Do you see that? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. And can you just describe to 16 someone who has never been to a mine, in this 17 Italy mine, what - in a rough sense what one 18 would see? 19 A. Well, you know, this mine is in 20 a mountain, basically, and so to gain access 21 to the talc, they drive tunnels into the side 22 of the mountain until they hit the talc seam. 23 They would have established that - the 24 location of the talc in the mountain before 25 driving -- you know, with drilling, and then Page 115 Page 117 1 A. Yep. 1 they developed the mine along the seam. And 2 Q. And the other two folks there, 2 in Italy the talc is deposited as a seam, 3 do you know who they were? 3 very much like a coal seam in a coal mine, 4 A. Yeah, they were there from J&J. 4 and then they drive along the deposit and 5 One was the laboratory manager in the UK, anc 5 then mine into the talc on either side of the 6 the other was the technical services director 6 roadway and... 7 of J&J UK. 7 Q. And this has been - according 8 Q. Yeah. 8 to this report that you prepared, this had 9 And if you look at this report, 9 been going on at least since 1945 and it had 10 you go to the second page --are you with me? 10 increased significantly that year? 11 A. Yep. 11 A. Yeah. 12 Q. It says that "a scientific team 12 Q. So this had been a deposit that 13 visited the Val Chisone talc mine on the 30th 13 had been used for some time? 14 of September, 1971, and the visit was made in 14 A. Well, yeah, quite new actually 15 order to see the conditions under which talc 15 in a sense. You know, it's 1940, wasn't very 16 is mined and to examine the talc seam 16 long. It's only 19 sort of - but the 17 itself." 17 Italian talc had earned a reputation of being 18 Did I read that right? 18 a very high quality material. So they were 19 A. Yes. 19 ramping production up and developing the mine 20 Q. And can you explain to us what 20 at different levels. 21 that's talking about? 21 Q. And it says here in this memo 22 A. Well, essentially to establish, 22 that you had detailed discussions. 23 A, what the --what the production locations 23 Do you see that? 24 in the mine looked like so that one could 24 A. Page? 25 assess whether or not there was a likelihood 25 Q. It's right on the first page. 17 (Pages 114 to 117) Golkow Technologies, Inc. - 1.877.370.DEPS Frederick Pooley, Ph.D. Page 118 Page 120 1 A. Oh, I'm sorry. Yeah. Yes. 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. Detailed discussions -- 2 Q. And that they were passed on to 3 A. Sure. 3 Dr. F. Pooley at the University of Wales for 4 Q. --with Senor Piero Sartorio, 4 detailed identification and characterization? 5 the technical director? 5 A. That's correct. 6 A. Yes. 6 Q. And did that identification and 7 Q. And the mine engineer. 7 characterization ultimately happen? 8 And you also had discussions, 8 A. Yes, it did. 9 do you remember, here with somebody named 9 Q. And can you tell us what 10 Dr. Stefano Zucchetti of the Institute of 10 conclusion you reached after looking at all 11 Geology and Mineral Deposits of Turin 11 of these samples, all this testing, as to 12 Polytechnic? 12 whether or not asbestos was present in these 13 A. Yes. 13 deposits and samples? 14 Q. Is that a ~ Turin Polytechnic, 14 A. No, we didn't find - we didn't 15 is that any - in your business something 15 find any asbestos in any of the samples we 16 that means something? 16 took. 17 A. Well, it's a university in 17 Q. And did you do good testing; do 18 Turin, you know, and they've got a department 18 you think? 19 of minerals engineering and mining, yeah. 19 A. Oh, yeah, very, very intensive. 20 Q. Yeah. And this says that this 20 We took quite a few months working on these 21 individual's published paper of studies on 21 samples and comparing it with the product 22 the deposits 22 from the mine itself, the 00000 talc. 23 A. Sure. 23 Q. And I have a couple slides here 24 Q. --in this valley? 24 that I thought might be helpful so our jury 25 A. Yes. 25 could get a little bit of a visual sense of Page 119 Page 121 1 Q. All right. And I gather what 1 some of the things that happen at this 2 you did here is you gathered a series of 2 deposit. 3 samples, right? 3 And they may not be the best to 4 A. Yes. 4 see, but I want to see if maybe you can at 5 Q. And by my count, it looks like 5 least tell us a little bit about what this is 6 you came up with a sampling program, and I 6 since you had visited there. 7 guess you got about 60 samples or so. 7 A. As I mentioned earlier, the 8 Do you see that? 8 mine is in a valley with very steep mountains 9 A. Yes. 9 rising from it. This is the site of one of 10 Q. All right. And there's a 10 the entrances to the mine, if you like, and 11 comment in here that says that the massive 11 they've driven into the side of the hill and 12 talc is exceptionally pure. 12 what you see here is the waste material 13 Do you see that? 13 that's been produced from the driveage as 14 A. Yep. 14 they go in to hit the talc seam. 15 Q. And what does that mean? 15 Q. And then let's look at this 16 A. Oh, it was quite impressive in 16 other picture, the next page, and see if you 17 that it occurred, which is very homogenous 17 can tell us what this is. 18 material, quite what I would call some nice 18 So our jury can understand, 19 mineral specimens, and, in fact, people used 19 this is --there are some mines that are open 20 to -- they used to have people visiting the 20 pit, right, and there's some where you have 21 mine to purchase blocks of talc for carving 21 to go underground? 22 purposes. It was very, very good quality 22 A. Yeah. 23 material. 23 Q. Which one is this one? 24 Q. And it says here that 60-some 24 A. This is an underground mine, 25 samples were taken? 25 and this is one o f the roadways heading in 18 (Pages 118 to 121) Golkow Technologies, Inc. - 1.877.370.DEPS Frederick Pooley, Ph.D. Page 122 Page 124 1 towards the talc seam. And what you see here 1 A. Oh, these are sample bags. In 2 are boxes, they're core boxes, because the 2 addition to the sample --on a continuous 3 management would drill ahead to find out 3 basis and samples of the core would be ground 4 where the talc was and was it still 4 up and bagged off and labeled and sent to 5 continuing. And at the same time they would 5 interested, sort of, parties for analysis to 6 take core samples and send them out in these 6 see if it was still meeting the specs that 7 boxes, laying them in the boxes, so that 7 the purchaser required in terms of whiteness 8 examination could be made of the cores to see 8 and impurities and texture. 9 if there was any impurity occurring or 9 Q. And did you --I presume from 10 beginning to occur in the samples. 10 time to time you communicated to the folks at 11 And if the talc wasn't 11 Johnson & Johnson about what you saw, right, 12 suitable, then they would say, you know, from 12 your test results? 13 the cores from a particular area, they will 13 A. Oh, yes. Yes. Yes. 14 say, "Well, we won't bother to mine that; you 14 Q. And I want to show you a letter 15 know, carry on until we got a better 15 dated September 28, 1972, which I think will 16 product." 16 be Exhibit 8 to your deposition. 17 Q. Yeah. 17 (Pooley Exhibits 8 and 9 marked 18 And this next photograph, tell 18 for identification.) 19 us what this is. 19 QUESTIONS BY MR. BICKS: 20 There are holes there in that 20 Q. Do you remember somebody named 21 wall. What's going"on there? 21 Dr. Shelley? 22 A. Well, they were ~ they're now 22 A. Yes, indeed. 23 driving these roadways in the talc seam, as 23 Q. And we have before you 24 it were. 24 Exhibit 8. If you can take a look at that, I 25 Q. Yeah. 25 think it's a --it's an important letter. Page 123 Page 125 1 A. And so these are drill holes 1 Did you write this letter? 2 ready to blast rock out so they can advance 2 A. Yes. 3 the roadway in the talc seam. 3 Q. And it refers to work that you 4 Q. And do some of these holes, 4 were doing on the Italian mine samples that 5 sometimes do they drill in and then take out 5 you say here were in progress for over a 6 samples for testing? 6 year? 7 A. Oh, sure. Yeah. The sample 7 A. Yes. 8 holes would be very similar in size to these 8 Q. Is that right? 9 holes that you see in this rock face. 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. And the next photograph here, 10 Q. So this was a project that - 11 again, it's hard to see, but at least it's 11 how extensive, I guess, would you describe 12 better than having no picture, I hope. 12 it? 13 A. Yeah, this is a picture o f -- 13 A. Oh, it's pretty intense, you 14 at the processing plant and shows you piles 14 know. It wasn't a matter ofjust sort of 15 of crushed talc rock prior to sort of 15 taking a sample and --you had to prepare it 16 sorting. 16 for examination, prepare it for optical 17 Q. And you say "sorting." What do 17 examination, you know, cutting rock specimen, 18 you mean by that? 18 producing thin sections of rock. So it was 19 A. Sorting, well, you know, you'd 19 extensive. 20 have lumps of rock and you sort them. You 20 Q. And there's reference here to a 21 know, colored ones you don't want, white ones 21 Shower to Shower sample. 22 you do. And the ladies of the village there 22 Do you remember that? 23 were providing quite a bit of employment for 23 A. Yes. I remember the name, 24 picking --picking off about. 24 yeah. 25 Q. And tell us what this is. 25 Q. Yeah. 19 (Pages 122 to 125) Golkow Technologies, Inc. 1.877.370.DEPS Frederick Pooley, Ph.D. Page 126 Page 128 1 And do you recall generally 1 Q. And you say here that some 2 during this time period that a question had 2 tremolite was located but was not asbestiform 3 arisen, I think in the United States, about a 3 in character. 4 Shower to Shower sample which was a Johnson 4 Can you explain what that 5 baby powder product, right? 5 means? 6 A. Yes. 6 A. Well, A, in the rock specimens, 7 Q. And people were looking at that 7 it was detected. It didn't have the typical, 8 to try to determine what the answer was from 8 if you like, asbestiform appearance. There 9 a scientific basis? 9 weren't veins of fiber and it --when 10 A. Yeah. 10 examined, it didn't break down to produce, 11 Q. And you were involved in that? 11 you know, extensive fibrous particles. 12 A. Yes. 12 Q. And there's reference here 13 Q. And so I gather you went back 13 that - that it says "some tremolite was 14 and looked at all the information you had 14 located but was not asbestiform in 15 about the Italian mine and it's in this 15 character," and then it says "has not been 16 letter, right? 16 detected in 00000 talc imported into Great 17 A. Uh-huh. 17 Britain for the past year, nor in shipments 18 Q. And you say here that the 18 dating back to 1949," right? 19 report ~ 19 A. Yes. 20 MR. LANIER: Object to the 20 Q. So that 1949, that's looking 21 form. 21 back over 23 years, right? 22 QUESTIONS BY MR. BICKS: 22 A. Sure. 23 Q. - the report of the 23 Q. How did you know that? 24 examination contains a brief outline of the 24 A. Well, I had been supplied with 25 results obtained, right? 25 samples, historic samples, of talc from J&J. Page 127 Page 129 1 A. Sure. 1 Q. And this was the work that you 2 Q. You prepared a very detailed 2 did, right? 3 report that I'll show you, and you know what 3 A. Uh-huh. 4 the report is, right? 4 MR. LANIER: Objection. Form. 5 A. Yeah. 5 QUESTIONS BY MR. BICKS: 6 Q. And you say here that "no 6 Q. All right. You prepared, I 7 chrysotile was found at the mine or in the 7 gather, a very detailed report that I think I 8 samples taken; some tremolite was located but 8 count is over 122 pages. 9 was not asbestiform in character and has not 9 Do you remember that? 10 been detected in 00000 talc imported into 10 A. Yes. 11 Great Britain for the past year, nor in 11 (Pooley Exhibit 10 marked for 12 shipments dating back to 1949." 12 identification.) 13 Did I read that right? 13 QUESTIONS BY MR. BICKS: 14 A. Yes. 14 Q. I'm going to put that in front 15 Q. And this 00000 talc, this was 15 o f you and ask you a couple questions about 16 the talc that came from Italy? 16 it. 17 A. Sure. Yes. 17 Is this a report that you've 18 Q. And they called it 00000, 18 prepared, Dr. Pooley? 19 right? 19 A. Yes, this is. I wrote this 20 A. Yeah. 20 report, yeah. 21 Q. And let's walk through what -- 21 Q. And it's long? 22 and this is information --this represents 22 A. Yeah. 23 what you and folks working with you had 23 Q. And our jury will have an 24 concluded based on a year-plus of research? 24 opportunity to look at it in detail, but I 25 A. Yes. 25 want to ask you if we can go to your 20 (Pages 126 to 129) Golkow Technologies, Inc. - 1.877.370.DEPS Frederick Pooley, Ph.D. Page 130 Page 132 1 conclusion page at 122. 1 A. Yes, we were. We tried to be, 2 MR. LANIER: What are you 2 you know, as thorough as possible. 3 calling this exhibit number, please? 3 Q. And you were also looking at 4 MR.BICKS: 10. 4 batch shipments of talc and old samples - 5 MR. LANIER: Thank you. 5 A. Yes. 6 QUESTIONS BY MR. BICKS: 6 Q. -- of powders, right? 7 Q. See if we can see it. 7 A. That's correct. 8 A. Yep. 8 Q. And what did you conclude after 9 Q. You talk here about electron 9 looking at those shipments and all the 10 microscope examination. 10 various samples? 11 Do you see that? 11 A. No fibrous asbestos minerals 12 A. Yes. The electron microscope 12 detected. 13 examination, yes. 13 Q. And in terms of your dealings 14 Q. And you say here at the bottom 14 with Johnson & Johnson, one could have just 15 that "no amphophile or chrysotile mineral was 15 looked at only the samples, right - 16 detected in any of the numerous powders 16 A. Sure. 17 examined." 17 Q. - rather than the whole 18 Do you see that? 18 different parts o f the mine? 19 A. Yes. 19 A. Sure. 20 Q. And can you explain to us what 20 Q. Right? 21 that is referring to? 21 A. Yes. 22 A. There were no particles 22 MR. LANIER: Objection. Form. 23 detected in that examination which had the 23 QUESTIONS BY MR. BICKS: 24 form, okay, of amphophile mineral particles. 24 Q. What was your understanding of 25 Q. And in terms o f the samples 25 why the entire mine was looked at? Page 131 Page 133 1 that you were looking at here, you were 1 A. Well, it's --it's really 2 looking at - if we go back up front, you 2 reference. You --if minerals which are not 3 were looking at several different types of 3 very pleasant turned up in the rock 4 things, right? If we go to the first page, 4 specimens, then we could sort of concentrate 5 this lists all the things that you were 5 on trying to detect them in the product. 6 looking at. 6 All mineral analysis is 7 Do you see that? 7 reference-related. The diffraction is 8 A. Yes. 8 reference-related. The optical microscopy is 9 Q. And you're looking at things 9 reference-related. And the EM work is 10 from the footwall to the general ore to 10 reference-related. This is what the material 11 massive talc. 11 looks like, and that's your first step in 12 To someone who is not in your 12 terms of identification and characterization 13 line o f work, it looks like you were looking 13 of impurities. 14 all over the place -- 14 Q. And did the folks at Johnson & 15 MR. LANIER: Object to the 15 Johnson, were they in any way trying to 16 form. 16 influence scientific conclusions you reached? 17 QUESTIONS BY MR. BICKS: 17 MR. LANIER: Objection. Form. 18 Q. --is that fair? 18 THE WITNESS: Well, let's put 19 A. Yes, it was quite an intensive 19 it another way: You can't influence 20 sampling and examination exercise. 20 an examination. You either get a 21 Q. And were you trying to, in 21 result or you don't. 22 basic terms, look for any possible sample 22 QUESTIONS BY MR. BICKS: 23 anywhere in that entire deposit that could 23 Q. And was this work that you were 24 theoretically have something in there that 24 doing --you know that some people do work 25 could be a problem? 25 because they've got to do it in connection 21 (Pages 130 to 133) Golkow Technologies, Inc. - 1.877.370.DEPS Frederick Pooley, Ph.D. Page 134 Page 136 1 with a lawsuit. 1 accomplish? 2 A. Uh-huh. 2 A. Well, they were trying to 3 Q. Was this work done in 3 establish, if you like, the purity of their 4 connection with any kind of litigation? 4 products. You know, they were concerned. I 5 A. No. 5 found them to be a very proud company, you 6 Q. We had talked a little bit 6 know, historic and... 7 before about doing work on international 7 Q. And when we look at the Italian 8 samples, and as time rolled forward after 8 sample, you say here - you conclude that - 9 1971, were you called on to look at 9 you say that you see a fibrous sample? 10 additional international samples for Johnson 10 A. Yeah. 11 & Johnson? 11 Q. But no asbestos particles 12 A. Yes. 12 observed? 13 (Pooley Exhibit 11 marked for 13 A. Yeah. 14 identification.) 14 Q. Right? Is that right? 15 QUESTIONS BY MR. BICKS: 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. And we have before you 16 Q. All right. And you say 17 Exhibit 11. 17 "fibrous." What do you mean by that? 18 Is this another report that you 18 A. Well, it's just a general 19 prepared? 19 description of the form of the particles. 20 A. Yes. 20 You know, they're longer than they're wide, 21 Q. And you can see here on 21 presumably, you know. 22 Exhibit 11 that you're looking at talc from 22 Q. And in your conclusions, which 23 all over the world, but one of the talcs that 23 is here, you talk about this Brazilian sample 24 you're looking at is the Italian 00000, 24 number 9, right? 25 right? 25 A. Yes. Page 135 Page 137 1 A. Yes. 1 Q. And you then go over to the 2 Q. All right. And you report on 2 next page and you say, "The remainder of the 3 some of the things that you found later on in 3 samples were found to be asbestos-free." 4 this document, and you say that the Italian 4 Do you see that? 5 00000 has talc with chlorite and magnesite, 5 A. Yes. 6 right? 6 Q. And did that include the 7 A. Yes. 7 Italian 00000 sample? 8 Q. Did you see any kind of 8 A. Yes, indeed. 9 amphophile in the Italian 00000? 9 Q. All right. I had asked you 10 A. No. 10 about this Shower to Shower sample, and I'll 11 Q. All right. You did, however, 11 ask you as we roll forward, you remember 12 see one question that you noted from a sample 12 somebody named - I think it was Seymour 13 in Brazil, right? 13 Lewin in New York? 14 A. Yes. 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. All right. And so when you 15 Q. And how about Arthur Langer, 16 were writing your reports, was there any 16 did you know Arthur Langer? 17 effort by anybody at Johnson & Johnson if you 17 A. Yes, very well. Yeah. 18 saw something that was a problem or you were 18 Q. And did you actually work at 19 concerned about to not have you communicate 19 Mount Sinai Hospital? 20 it to them? 20 A. Yes, indeed. 21 A. No. 21 Q. And tell us when you did that. 22 Q. And how would you describe the 22 A. 1970. 23 level of kind of the dialog and what you 23 Q. And did you know the people - 24 thought the people at Johnson & Johnson who 24 a lot of people talk about Irving Selikoff. 25 you were dealing with were trying to 25 Did you come and know those 22 (Pages 134 to 137) Golkow Technologies, Inc. - 1.877.370.DEPS Frederick Pooley, Ph.D. Page 138 Page 140 1 folks? 1 In your world of people who use 2 A. Oh, yes. Very well. 2 microscopes and mineralogy, are these some of 3 Q. And you recall, I think I asked 3 kind of the leading people in the field? 4 you about this, that there was --some people 4 A. Yes, they were. They were 5 were debating because some people in New York 5 well-known in the field, anyway, yeah. 6 thought that they had seen asbestos in Shower 6 Q. And there was also a discussion 7 to Shower, right? 7 about a particular sample where someone had 8 A. Yeah, I think it --the topic 8 thought that there was asbestos in it, a 9 was raised. 9 sample called 108/T. 10 Q. And was that ultimately --what 10 Does that -- the number and 11 ultimately happened with that debate; do you 11 letter ring a bell? 12 remember? 12 A. Yes, indeed. Yeah. 13 A. Oh, there was --no evidence 13 Q. And you had undertaken, along 14 was produced, I'll put it that way. 14 with many other scientists, to try to get to 15 Q. And extensive studying was 15 the bottom of that? 16 done. Do you recall that it actually showed 16 A. Yep. 17 that there was actually no asbestos? 17 (Pooley Exhibit 13 marked for 18 A. That's correct, yeah. 18 identification.) 19 MR. LANIER: Object to form. 19 QUESTIONS BY MR. BICKS: 20 (Pooley Exhibit 12 marked for 20 Q. And before you is Exhibit 13, 21 identification.) 21 which is a report that you prepared. 22 QUESTIONS BY MR. BICKS: 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. Yeah, you remember that. 23 Q. Do you see that? 24 Let's just quickly look at this 24 And it's the 8th of November, 25 exhibit, which is Exhibit 12, where you're 25 1972, and this is you, Dr. Fred Pooley, and Page 139 Page 141 1 looking at the Shower to Shower specimen and 1 you say here that you find no evidence of any 2 the conclusion that you reach is that no 2 of the mineral at all, focusing on 3 detectable chrysotile or amphophile is 3 chrysotile. 4 present in the Shower to Shower sample. 4 Do you see that? 5 Do you recall that? 5 A. Yes. 6 A. Yes. 6 Q. And is it fair to say as we've 7 Q. And do you also recall during 7 looked through these historical documents, 8 this time period that there were other kind 8 that at least at this stage that's what 9 of scientists looking at these talc samples 9 people were concerned about, whether there 10 and products, people from MIT? 10 was chrysotile in one or two of these 11 Do you remember anyone from 11 samples? 12 MIT? 12 A. Yes. Chrysotile was the 13 A. Berger? 13 asbestos fiber being, you know, pushed, as it 14 Q. Berger, yes, you - somebody 14 were. 15 from -- 15 Q. Yeah. And you remember during 16 A. Yeah, there were a lot of 16 the 1970s that there was - the FDA, the 17 names. 17 government organization in the United States, 18 Q. Yeah. 18 was looking at testing methods for asbestos 19 A. Yeah. 19 and trying to investigate some of these 20 Q. A fellow named Gordon Brown 20 issues? 21 from Princeton? 21 A. Yes. 22 A. Gordon Brown, yeah. 22 Q. And did you actually appear 23 Q. Does that name ring a bell? 23 before the FDA? 24 A. Yes. 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. People from McCrone. 25 Q. And if somebody were to say, 23 (Pages 138 to 141) Golkow Technologies, Inc. - 1.877.370.DEPS Frederick Pooley, Ph.D. Page 142 Page 144 1 you know, that Johnson & Johnson and you were 1 Q. All right. And was that 2 trying to hoodwink the FDA and not give them 2 consistent with what you had seen as well? 3 truthful information, what would you say to 3 A. That's true, yes. 4 that? 4 Q. I want to show you another 5 A. Nonsense. 5 report that you did. This is in 1973. And 6 (Pooley Exhibit 14 marked for 6 because of what was going on during the '70s 7 identification.) 7 is you were looking at Vermont talc and also 8 QUESTIONS BY MR. BICKS: 8 international talcs at the same time, right? 9 Q. Here is a report. Do you 9 A. Yes. 10 remember that everyone was looking at this 10 (Pooley Exhibit 15 marked for 11 108/T sample and providing information on 11 identification.) 12 what they saw? 12 QUESTIONS BY MR. BICKS: 13 MR. LANIER: Exhibit number? 13 Q. And in this exhibit, I think 14 MR. BICKS: 15. 14. 14 it's 15, you're back also looking at Italian 15 QUESTIONS BY MR. BICKS: 15 cosmetic-grade talc, right? 16 Q. And I have 14 in front of you. 16 A. Yes. 17 It's a little bit hard to read, but it's a 17 Q. Because --so in terms of time 18 January 1976 letter and the name at the top 18 frames, do you understand that what was going 19 is Heinz Eiermann. 19 on here was that Johnson & Johnson bought -- 20 Does that name in any way ring 20 owned a mineral deposit in Windsor, right, 21 a bell? 21 for a time period? 22 A. Not really, no. 22 A. Yeah. 23 Q. All right. I think he was 23 Q. And the historical record will 24 somebody at the FDA. 24 show that, you know, they bought that in the 25 A. FDA. 25 late 1960s. Page 143 Page 145 1 Q. And we'll see his name, I 1 Does that comport with your 2 think, in a couple other documents. 2 knowledge? 3 But you remember that this 3 MR. LANIER: Objection. Form. 4 sample, I guess, people were looking at in 4 THE WITNESS: Well, I knew they 5 1972, they spent a few years trying to look 5 owned the Vermont mine, yeah. 6 at it, right? 6 QUESTIONS BY MR. BICKS: 7 A. Yep. 7 Q. And do you recall that in the 8 Q. All right. And then so here 8 late 1960s that in the United States Johnson 9 finally we have this memorandum from the FDA 9 & Johnson was shifting its source of talc 10 and where they're going through a bunch of 10 used in US baby powder from Italy to Vermont? 11 different samples of cosmetic talc, and we 11 A. Yes, I knew that --that had 12 can see here sample 133, the 108/T. 12 happened, yes. 13 Do you see that? 13 Q. But you were also into the '70s 14 A. Yes. 14 still looking at Italian cosmetic-grade 15 Q. And it's a little bit of a 15 because it was used in other parts of the 16 tricky document to see, but you see these ND, 16 world? 17 ND, those letters? 17 MR. LANIER: Object to the 18 A. Yep. 18 form. 19 Q. And do you know what ND means? 19 THE WITNESS: It was a major 20 A. Not detected. 20 source of talc in the UK, yes. 21 Q. Yeah. And you have to go back 21 QUESTIONS BY MR. BICKS: 22 and look to see that those columns represent 22 Q. So here's another Italian 23 what would be chrysotile and tremolite. 23 cosmetic-grade and you're doing a report. 24 Do you see that in the charts? 24 This is for Johnson & Johnson in the UK, 25 A. That's correct. 25 right, Johnson & Johnson Limited? 24 (Pages 142 to 145) Golkow Technologies, Inc. - 1.877.370.DEPS Frederick Pooley, Ph.D. Page 146 Page 148 1 A. That's right, yes. 1 Q. - even though it looked like 2 Q. Fair enough. 2 maybe it could be? 3 And what you're doing here, 3 A. Could be, yes. 4 you're looking here it says, "the powders 4 MR. LANIER: Object to form. 5 were examined for their suspected chrysotile 5 (Pooley Exhibit 16 marked for 6 content," right? 6 identification.) 7 A. Yes. 7 QUESTIONS BY MR. BICKS: 8 Q. All right. And you're 8 Q. Another document, I just want 9 looking - so our jury is clear, you're 9 to have you tell us what it is, is 10 looking at four different samples, right? 10 Exhibit 15, which is a report that you did -- 11 A. Yes. 11 16 on international samples. And this is 12 Q. And I'm focused really on the 12 another report that you prepared, and it's 13 Italian cosmetic-grade one. 13 April 7, 1975. 14 And you reach a conclusion at 14 Dr. Pooley, is this a report 15 the back, which is interesting, because you 15 you prepared April 7, 1975? 16 say, "Of the four powders examined, only A 16 A. Yes. 17 and D were found to contain particles that 17 Q. And it's on various 18 looked like - resembling chrysotile, and 18 international samples that are listed. You 19 these have been shown to correspond to the 19 looked at Italy, United States. 20 mineral meerschaum. No chrysotile was found 20 Do you see that? 21 in any of the samples." 21 A. Yes. 22 A. No. 22 Q. And here's actually a situation 23 Q. Tell us what that's all about. 23 where you found an asbestos mineral in a 24 A. Oh, I think there was - there 24 sample that was out in California. 25 had been a worry that samples may be 25 Do you remember that? Page 147 Page 149 1 contaminated with something, and this is why 1 A. Yeah. 2 this was undertaken and small --a few 2 Q. And what was that deposit? 3 particles of this mineral was detected in 3 A. Warm Springs, I think. It's 4 those two samples you listed. 4 the Death Valley, somewhere around that area, 5 Q. And what is meerschaum? 5 the mine. 6 A. It's the --are you familiar 6 Q. Yeah. 7 with meerschaum pipes? 7 And so I guess one thing I want 8 Q. Do I --I've never even heard 8 to ask you is in terms of your dealings with 9 of them. Oh, apipe. Yeah. 9 Johnson & Johnson, were there situations 10 A. A white mineral. 10 where actually sometimes you found asbestos 11 Q. Oh, yes. 11 in a sample and you communicated it to them? 12 A. And it's carved. 12 A. Yeah, well, that --that sample 13 Q. Yeah. 13 was actually from another company, I think. 14 A. You can carve it into -- 14 Avon. 15 Q. Meerschaum pipe for tobacco. 15 Q. Yeah. 16 A. Yeah. It's the same mineral. 16 In other words, a lot of times 17 Q. Yeah. 17 you were actually analyzing talc samples for 18 A. Yeah, it's a white mineral and 18 other companies or deposits that had nothing 19 it consists basically of a mass of very fne 19 to do with Johnson & Johnson? 20 fibrous particles, which are illustrated at 20 A. That's right. 21 the back. 21 Q. Fair enough. 22 Q. Yeah. 22 MR. LANIER: Object to form. 23 But it turned out not to be 23 QUESTIONS BY MR. BICKS: 24 asbestos - 24 Q. I want to ask you, you recall 25 A. No. No. 25 and we talked a little bit about it, but in 25 (Pages 146 to 149) Golkow Technologies, Inc. - 1.877.370.DEPS Frederick Pooley, Ph.D. Page 150 Page 152 1 the 1970s there was a series of newspaper 1 Thomas Chalmers. He's the president of Mounl 2 articles, you remember, in the early 70s 2 Sinai Medical Center in New York. 3 from folks at Mount Sinai, Dr. Langer and 3 A. Yeah. 4 also Seymour Lewin, who had been at NYU. 4 Q. And this is where we are for 5 Do you remember that generally? 5 your deposition, right - 6 A. Yes. Yeah. 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. And it created a fair amount of 7 Q. - in New York. 8 public attention and discussion, fair? 8 And so you lived in New York 9 A. Yes. 9 for some time? 10 Q. And you were actually - you 10 A. Yeah. Top of Central Park on 11 were at Mount Sinai. You told us you worked 11 the Columbia campus. 12 there? 12 Q. Ah. And Mount Sinai - 13 A. Yes. 13 A. Was on Fifth Avenue. 14 Q. I want to show you a letter 14 Q. And about 99th Street? 15 from Thomas Chalmers. He was the president 15 A. Yes. I used to walk down every 16 of Mount Sinai Medical Center. 16 morning. 17 Does that name ring a bell? 17 Q. That's a good, long walk, 18 A. Vaguely. Yes. 18 right? 19 (Pooley Exhibit 17 marked for 19 A. Well, I was younger. 20 identification.) 20 Q. And this refers to the recent 21 QUESTIONS BY MR. BICKS: 21 media reports that I alluded to. 22 Q. Yeah. And tell us again what 22 Do you see that? 23 you were doing at Mount Sinai. 23 A. Yes. 24 A. I was developing Mount Sinai 24 Q. And that the president of Mount 25 research techniques. 25 Sinai wanted to issue a statement to make Page 151 Page 153 1 Q. On what particular topics? 1 sure there wasn't misimpression, right? 2 A. Had to look at particles in a 2 A. That's true. 3 transmission electron microscope. 3 Q. And the second page of this, do 4 Q. Did you think that there were 4 you see where I am? 5 room for improvement, let me put it that way? 5 A. Yeah. 6 A. Well, I was invited to do it. 6 Q. It says here, "The news media 7 You know, I wanted to show them the 7 specifically emphasized the dangers of talcum 8 techniques that we were using and, you know, 8 powders advertised for babies. The only baby 9 how to look at tissue specimens, et cetera. 9 powder tested that was reported to show 10 And the result of that short stay, I think 10 asbestos represents less than 1 percent of 11 three articles were published. So I got a 11 the market, and that sample was five years 12 publication with Irving Selikoff. 12 old. The most commonly used baby talc has 13 Q. Yeah. 13 been consistently free of asbestos." 14 So you actually published an 14 And you're familiar that the 15 article with Dr. Selikoff? 15 most commonly used baby talc is Johnson & 16 A. Yes. Yeah. 16 Johnson, right? 17 Q. And you said you were invited. 17 MR. LANIER: Object to form. 18 Who invited you? 18 THE WITNESS: Yes. 19 A. Dr. Selikoff. 19 QUESTIONS BY MR. BICKS: 20 Q. Understood. 20 Q. I mean, what is the most 21 And so this is a memo dated 21 commonly used baby talc based on your over 22 March 23,1976. 22 50 years of research into powders and talcs? 23 Do you see that? 23 MR. LANIER: Object to the 24 A. Yeah. 24 form. 25 Q. And it's from somebody named 25 THE WITNESS: J&J baby powder, 26 (Pages 150 to 153) Golkow Technologies, Inc. - 1.877.370.DEPS Frederick Pooley, Ph.D. Page 154 Page 156 1 yeah. 1 cause cancer." 2 QUESTIONS BY MR. BICKS: 2 That's what this says, right? 3 Q. Yeah. And then it's the 3 A. Yes. 4 opinion o f the Mount Sinai Department of 4 Q. From the president of Mount 5 Pediatrics that baby talc is a useful and 5 Sinai? 6 safe product. 6 A. Sinai, yeah. 7 Do you see that? 7 Q. And they talk here about that 8 A. Yes. 8 Mount Sinai investigators were involved, 9 Q. All right. And Johnson & 9 right? 10 Johnson baby powder, is that a product that 10 A. Yes. 11 has been used in your family from time to 11 Q. And that the research work was 12 time? 12 of the highest quality and a significant 13 A. Oh, I expect so. 13 contribution to the field; that's what's 14 Q. All right. And one o f the 14 stated here, right? 15 things that's referenced in this news article 15 A. Yes. 16 is that --it says here that recent data 16 Q. And do you recall that reports 17 carried out in Mount Sinai and for the last 17 were done kind of reflecting that research. 18 four years, right? 18 You know Dr. Arthur Langer, 19 Are you with me? 19 right? 20 A. Yes. 20 A. Very well, yeah. 21 Q. And you see this is 1976, but 21 Q. Okay. And you were actually as 22 for our jury, just for going back in history, 22 part of this research that was going on 23 we're talking about kind of four years of 23 during this four years, were you looking at 24 research on this question, right? 24 samples to try to find out what was going on? 25 MR. LANIER: Objection. Form. 25 A. Well, the whole range of Page 155 Page 157 1 QUESTIONS BY MR. BICKS: 1 samples was being examined, yeah. Tissue 2 Q. Is that consistent? You were a 2 specimens and - 3 part o f that as a -- 3 Q. Yeah. 4 A. Yes. 4 A. Yeah. 5 Q. You lived it? 5 Q. And you prepared a detailed 6 A. I was --yeah. 6 report, which I think is Exhibit 18. 7 Q. You were part of it? 7 (Pooley Exhibit 18 marked for 8 A. Part of it, yeah. 8 identification.) 9 Q. Yeah. And one o f the things 9 QUESTIONS BY MR. BICKS: 10 that was going on was people were trying to 10 Q. And do you have that in front 11 develop effective techniques for measuring 11 of you? 12 asbestos in talc, right? 12 A. Sure. 13 A. Yes. 13 Q. And you say here, and so we're 14 Q. And I think you've described 14 clear, this is you, University College 15 for us the people at Mount Sinai actually 15 Cardiff? 16 reached out to you to come to the United 16 A. That's it. 17 States and help; is that fair? 17 Q. Fred Pooley, and your signature 18 MR. LANIER: Objection. Form. 18 January 8 of the year 1976? 19 QUESTIONS BY MR. BICKS: 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. Share your knowledge? 20 Q. And you're looking at 38 talc 21 A. Yes, that's correct. 21 samples that originated from Dr. Langer, 22 Q. All right. And there's a 22 right? 23 statement here. It says, "It's important, 23 A. Yes. Yes. 24 practical implications because prolonged 24 Q. And you conclude here that six 25 exposure o f certain forms o f asbestos can 25 o f the samples appear to contain 27 (Pages 154 to 157) Golkow Technologies, Inc. 1.877.370.DEPS Frederick Pooley, Ph.D. Page 158 Page 160 1 amphophile-type material? 1 here of other products where things were 2 A. Yes. 2 detected but they were not Johnson & Johnson? 3 Q. And these are samples 1, 8,11, 3 A. No. 4 16,21 and 24. 4 Q. And then we have to flip over 5 And in your line of work, you 5 and we see Johnson & Johnson sample 20? 6 got to keep track of these numbers, right, 6 A. Uh-huh. 7 because people put sample numbers and it can 7 Q. And it says? 8 be tricky, right? 8 A. ND again --an ND for 9 A. Yep. 9 serpentine and amphophile. 10 Q. It's little bit like putting a 10 Q. Yeah. 11 puzzle together at times, right? 11 And Dr. Langer - and we'll 12 A. Uh-huh. 12 keep track of those numbers. And what are 13 Q. And you go on and you talk 13 they, Allegra? 4, 9, 18 and 20. 14 about these samples. I want to focus in 14 And I want to show you a paper 15 particular on Johnson & Johnson samples. 15 by Dr. Langer. And this is a paper that 16 And because these were samples 16 you're familiar with and you remember I 17 that people were looking at, right? 17 showed you the president of Mount Sinai 18 A. Sure. 18 Hospital saying that they had come out with 19 Q. And if you go to what is the 19 good research and they were going to publish 20 second to last page and we've got a whole 20 it? 21 list of samples. It's American OTC products, 21 A. Sure. 22 which what does OTC stand for; do you think? 22 Q. Right? 23 A. Over the counter. 23 MR. LANIER: Objection. Form. 24 Q. All right. And then it lists a 24 (Pooley Exhibit 19 marked for 25 series of products here, and I'm going to ask 25 identification.) Page 159 Page 161 1 Allegra to just help me keep track of the 1 QUESTIONS BY MR. BICKS: 2 numbers and write them down of which are the 2 Q. And this is Exhibit 19, and 3 Johnson & Johnson ones. 3 this is a paper "Consumer Talcums and 4 Johnson & Johnson 4, and it 4 Powders: Mineral and Chemical 5 says 1968, and it says for serpentine, what? 5 Characterization," A.N. Rohl, A.M. Langer and 6 A. ND. 6 Selikoff and some - and Tordini and 7 Q. What does that mean? 7 Klimentidis. 8 A. None detected. 8 Are any of these names familiar 9 Q. And then as it says amphophile, 9 to you? You told me about Langer and 10 it says? 10 Selikoff. 11 A. ND again, yeah. 11 A. Well, the line below is Bowes 12 Q. Yeah. 12 and Skinner. I knew those two chaps. 13 And then 19 --670, a medicated 13 Q. Yeah. And these are the folks 14 powder, serpentine? 14 from the University of Glasgow. 15 A. Not detected. 15 And they're looking at consumer 16 Q. And amphophile? 16 talcum powders, right? 17 A. Not detected, yes. 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. And then we go down to 18. 18 Q. And on there - they say what 19 A. Yeah. 19 their methodology is on ~ it's page, I 20 Q. Johnson's baby powder English. 20 think, 259, if I can find it. 21 A. Yeah. 21 And it's important when you do 22 Q. And it says? 22 test methods to look at what tests people are 23 A. ND for serpentine and ND for 23 doing, right? 24 amphophile. 24 A. Yes, indeed. 25 Q. And there are indications on 25 Q. And it says here they were 28 (Pages 158 to 161) Golkow Technologies, Inc. 1.877.370.DEPS Frederick Pooley, Ph.D. Page 162 Page 164 1 doing optical microscopy, transmission 1 showing here --and there's a lot on the 2 electron microscopy with selected area 2 chart, but I think it bears looking at 3 electron diffraction - 3 together. 4 A. Yeah. 4 You see along the top that 5 Q. --X-ray diffraction and 5 you're looking at sample number and then it 6 scanning electron microscopy with X-ray 6 goes all the way to 21, right? 7 analysis capabilities? 7 A. Yes. 8 A. Yeah. 8 Q. And then down on this column, 9 Q. Are those --as somebody in 9 it lists what are the minerals that they're 10 your field, are those the kind o f test 10 looking at, right? 11 methods you say should be used? 11 A. Yes. 12 A. Yeah, they're pretty standard 12 Q. And one o f the things that they 13 in a particulate laboratory. 13 look at is tremolite? 14 Q. And what's tricky sometimes 14 A. Yes. 15 about these papers is they don't tell you 15 Q. And chrysotile? 16 what the products are that are being looked 16 A. Yes. 17 at, right, because they don't --they just 17 Q. Right? 18 list numbers? 18 A. Yes. 19 MR. LANIER: Objection. Form. 19 Q. Sample 4, what does it show for 20 THE WITNESS: That's right. 20 whether or not there was tremolite or 21 QUESTIONS BY MR. BICKS: 21 chrysotile? 22 Q. So you have to kind o f follow 22 A. Oh, it only lists talc and 23 clues to figure it out, right? 23 chlorite. No other mineral. 24 MR. LANIER: Objection. Form. 24 Q. And what about when we go over 25 THE WITNESS: Right. Sure. 25 to sample 9? Page 163 Page 165 1 QUESTIONS BY MR. BICKS: 1 A. Same again, it just lists talc 2 Q. All right. And this article, I 2 and chlorite. 3 don't know if you remember it, got a fair 3 Q. And what about if we slide over 4 amount o f attention. 4 here to 18? 5 Do you remember any of that? 5 A. They've got talc and chlorite, 6 A. Well, when it was published. 6 but they've also included 1.6 percent quartz. 7 Q. Yeah. 7 Q. Yep. 8 A. Vaguely, yeah. 8 And then when we go to 20, you 9 Q. Okay. And I want to look at 9 see here -- 10 the Table 4 here, which --and, by the way, 10 A. Talc and chlorite. Nothing 11 you didn't have any - you weren't doing the 11 else. 12 testing for this study, were you? 12 Q. And there's also, I should say, 13 A. No. 13 anthophyllite. 14 Q. And if you go to Table 4 , 1 14 What is anthophyllite? 15 want to talk about this for a minute. And 15 A. Well, it's another asbestos 16 Allegra will have to remind me of those 16 mineral. It's linked in the group. 17 numbers. 17 Q. Yeah. 18 What were they? 4, 9, 18, 20. 18 A. It's an amphophile. 19 And those were --we learned 19 Q. Yeah. 20 from that other document these were the 20 And was there any anthophyllite 21 Johnson & Johnson samples, right? 21 on any of the Johnson & Johnson samples? 22 A. Yeah. 22 MR. LANIER: Object to form. 23 MR. LANIER: Objection. Form. 23 THE WITNESS: No. 24 QUESTIONS BY MR. BICKS: 24 QUESTIONS BY MR. BICKS: 25 Q. All right. And so what this is 25 Q. No? 29 (Pages 162 to 165) Golkow Technologies, Inc. 1.877.370.DEPS Frederick Pooley, Ph.D. Page 166 Page 168 1 A. No. 2 Q. So when we go back to 3 Dr. Chalmers - or I called him a doctor. 4 Let me make sure. Yeah, he's a doctor. 5 Dr. Chalmers' article where he 6 says -- 7 MR. LANIER: What's the exhibit 8 number? 9 MS. NOONAN: 7. 10 QUESTIONS BY MR. BICKS: 11 Q. --that the most commonly used 12 talc has been consistently free of asbestos. 13 First of all, do you agree with 14 that statement, and was it consistent with 15 what you found? 16 MR. LANIER: Objection. Form. 17 THE WITNESS: Yes. 18 QUESTIONS BY MR. BICKS: 19 Q. And does it appear to be 20 consistent with the published article of 21 Arthur Langer? 22 A. Yes. 23 MR. LANIER: Objection. Form. 24 QUESTIONS BY MR. BICKS: 25 Q. All right. The folks at Mount 1 article that appeared. It's called "Beauty; 2 a dusting of powder." 3 Do you see that? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. And the reason I'm referring to 6 it is because it's got information, and it's 7 important to look at the date, 1984. 8 A. Uh-huh. 9 Q. Remember I had shown you --and 10 at this time, fair, you were still part of 11 looking into various talc deposits to see if 12 there were concerns about asbestos, right? 13 A. Yeah, we used to get one or two 14 requests. 15 Q. Yeah. 16 And this is Dr. Irving Selikoff 17 talking about this in this article and he 18 says, "Many of the talcs that used to be were 19 contaminated with asbestos and we raised Cain 20 about it." 21 What do you make of that 22 comment? 23 A. Is that on the first page, is 24 it? 25 Q. Second page. Page 167 Page 169 1 Sinai, do you remember even after this 1 A. Second page. 2 statement of the president and the article by 2 Q. Are you with me? 3 Mr. Langer, Dr. Langer, and the folks on 3 A. Many of the talcs? 4 that, do you have any knowledge or 4 Oh, yes, I've got it now. Yes. 5 recollection about whether or not they were 5 Q. Yeah. You were kind of living 6 continuing to monitor whether or not cosmetic 6 through these times. 7 talcs in the United States had any asbestos 7 What do you make of that? 8 concerns? 8 A. How can I put it? It's 9 A. No, the whole talc scene tended 9 something about nothing. He's making it sort 10 to sort of deflate a little bit, let's put it 10 of a scene that --I mean, these talcs, they 11 that way. 11 didn't change their source, you know, after 12 Q. Yeah. 12 this --they still used the 00000 in the UK, 13 Let me show you an article that 13 the mine is still working, you know. I think 14 came out in the New York Times, Sunday 14 they still produce talc from Vermont and 15 Magazine section, in the year of 1984. 15 other locations. I think people were a bit 16 (Pooley Exhibit 20 marked for 16 more --suppliers were a bit more careful 17 identification.) 17 that they bought talcs from reputable 18 QUESTIONS BY MR. BICKS: 18 producers. 19 Q. Do you get --over your part of 19 Q. Yeah. 20 the world, do you folks read The New York 20 A. So that you couldn't get sort 21 Times? 21 of, you know, like the Californian talc, 22 A. No. 22 which had 35 percent amphophile in it, you 23 Q. Oh. A lot of people don't read 23 know. 24 it these days. 24 Q. I mean, one interesting thing 25 Let me see if you --here's an 25 about geology, and you can help us out here, 30 (Pages 166 to 169) Golkow Technologies, Inc. 1.877.370.DEPS Frederick Pooley, Ph.D. Page 170 Page 172 1 is if you --would you expect to see dramatic 1 MR. LANIER: Objection. 2 changes in a short period of time of the 2 QUESTIONS BY MR. BICKS: 3 mineral content of a deposit that you, for 3 Q. All right. There are ways 4 example, had investigated? 4 actually, though, and manufacturing processes 5 A. No. 5 to enhance the purity of talc, right? / 6 Q. I mean, how long ~ if you look 6 A. Yes. 7 at a deposit in Italy --I think these 7 MR. LANIER: Objection. Form. 8 records will show you spent two years looking 8 QUESTIONS BY MR. BICKS: 9 at the Val Chisone ore deposit and you 9 Q. What is also said here - 10 reached your conclusions. 10 remember I asked you about Heinz Eiermann anc 11 In terms of one of the things 11 I showed you him on a memo? 12 about geology is the history of something, 12 A. Yes. 13 it's a long, long history, right? 13 Q. And he says the FDA was 14 A. Sure. 14 monitoring the program, the director of the 15 MR. LANIER: Objection. Form. 15 Division of Cosmetic Technology, and he says 16 QUESTIONS BY MR. BICKS: 16 "the industry was very careful in the 17 Q. And so would you expect to see 17 selection of purchase of talc that was free 18 changes over a 10-, 15-year period of time or 18 of asbestos." 19 what time frame, I guess I should ask you as 19 Do you see that? 20 a geologist, do you look at? 20 A. Yes. 21 A. Well, it depends on the nature 21 Q. From your perspective, was 22 of the deposit, but normally once you've got 22 Johnson & Johnson, based on your ten-plus 23 a deposit like that Val Chisone one, it's 23 years, were they very careful in the 24 going to remain very much the same unless the 24 selection and purchase of talc that was free 25 talc seam moved into a different geological 25 of asbestos? Page 171 Page 173 1 setting, as it were. 1 MR. LANIER: Objection. Form. 2 Q. Yeah. 2 THE WITNESS: Very much so, 3 And so Dr. Selikoff says here 3 yes. 4 that --he's the professor of community 4 QUESTIONS BY MR. BICKS: 5 medicine, and he's at the hospital, right, 5 Q. And Eiermann says, "In 6 where Dr. Chalmers is the president, right? 6 subsequent analysis we really could not 7 MR. LANIER: Objection. Form. 7 identify asbestos or only on very rare 8 THE WITNESS: That's correct, 8 occasions." 9 yeah. 9 Do you see that? 10 QUESTIONS BY MR. BICKS: 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. And he says the Food and Drug 11 Q. Was there ever any 12 Administration became involved and the 12 identification o f asbestos in the Vermont 66 13 companies that were producing cosmetic-grade 13 or the Italian 00000? 14 talc got the asbestos out, right? 14 A. No. 15 MR. LANIER: Objection. Form. 15 Q. All right. And then remember 16 QUESTIONS BY MR. BICKS: 16 Seymour Lewin, I asked you about him? 17 Q. Do you see that? 17 A. Yes. 18 A. I would put this another way. 18 Q. And he says he's been doing 19 If you're producing a talc and it's got 19 regular X-ray analysis and he says he was 20 asbestos in it, no way you're going to get it 20 doing it just to be sure there are no serious 21 out. 21 offenders, and he says he was doing it since 22 Q. And there was no --was there 22 1975, right? 23 any asbestos, so we're clear, in any of the 23 A. Yes. 24 Johnson & Johnson product? 24 Q. And so this is in --written in 25 A. No. 25 1984, this article, so I guess if we credit 31 (Pages 170 to 173) Golkow Technologies, Inc. - 1.877.370.DEPS Frederick Pooley, Ph.D. Page 174 Page 176 1 him, he's been doing it for nine years, 1 is my question? 2 right? 2 A. Oh, the British government. 3 A. Yes. 3 Q. And can you just describe 4 MR. LANIER: Objection. Form. 4 generally to our jury, who may not be 5 QUESTIONS BY MR. BICKS: 5 familiar with this, what were you doing? 6 Q. All right. And he says, "I 6 . A. Well, I was -- 7 found no asbestos in any that I've tested 7 Q. And I should say there are a 8 during the last five years." 8 bunch o f folks here. 9 Do you see that? 9 You're not the only person, 10 A. Yes. 10 right? 11 Q. All right. And are these 11 A. Well, the --Dr. Wagner was the 12 statements about finding no asbestos, is this 12 pathologist -- 13 at least consistent with the research that 13 Q. Yes. 14 you had done over a fair amount o f your 14 A. --o f the team. 15 career? 15 Q. And he's a well-known doctor in 16 A. Yes, indeed. 16 this - in this - 17 Q. All right. You also did your 17 A. Oh, yes, he was. 18 own research, do you remember, in an animal 18 Q. - area? 19 experiment with the Italian talc. 19 A. Yeah. He discovered 20 Do you remember that? 20 mesothelioma, essentially. 21 A. Yes. Well, the Medical 21 Q. Yes. 22 Research Council in the UK, the laboratory I 22 Sometimes is it Wagner or 23 was associated with, was --they did a lot of 23 Wagner? 24 animal experimentation. 24 A. Well, he preferred Wagner, I 25 Q. Yeah. 25 think. Page 175 Page 177 1 A. You know, the premier sort of 1 Q. Wagner. Understood. 2 laboratory for animal testing. 2 A. Yeah. 3 Q. And did Johnson & Johnson -- 3 Geoffrey Berry, who is a very 4 A. Yes. 4 well-known epidemiologist, and then you've 5 (Pooley Exhibit 21 marked for 5 got Cooke, Hill, who were senior technicians 6 identification.) 6 at the Medical Research Council research 7 QUESTIONS BY MR. BICKS: 7 laboratory, myself and then also 8 Q. We have in front of you an 8 Dr. Skidmore, who worked - they were all 9 article which is Exhibit 21. 9 Medical Research Council and myself. 10 A. Yeah. 10 Q. Yeah. 11 Q. Did Johnson & Johnson have 11 And just tell us in general 12 anything to do with the research and work you 12 terms, what were you doing --what was your 13 did here? 13 group doing in these experiments? It says 14 A. No, but the --we used a talc 14 "animal experiments with talc." 15 source, which was the 00000 Italian -- 15 A. We were checking the talc 16 Q. Yeah. 16 powder that was used in the experiments and 17 A. --in animal experiments to see 17 manufacturing dust clouds with the talc, et 18 if there was --would be any obvious 18 cetera, and we were checking off the 19 biological response, which could be matched 19 composition of the dust created in the animal 20 with experiments that were being undertaken 20 cages, and we were also looking at the 21 with asbestos minerals and other sources of 21 postmortem material from the rats, you know, 22 minerals. 22 what do they have in their lungs after being 23 Q. Yeah. 23 exposed to. 24 And what I mean involved in 24 Q. Yeah. 25 terms of the --and who funded this, I guess 25 And one --I see here something 32 (Pages 174 to 177) Golkow Technologies, Inc. 1.877.370.DEPS Frederick Pooley, Ph.D. Page 178 Page 180 1 called an intrapleural inoculation 1 Q. And chrysotile? 2 experiment. Tell us what that is. 2 A. And uncontrolled. 3 A. Well, it's a - it's a test ,3 Q. So you've got the material 4 procedure where the mineral of interest would 4 injected, right? 5 be injected into the pleural cavity of the 5 A. Yes. 6 animal to set if it set off a biological 6 Q. And you've got the Italian 7 response, i.e., did you produce mesothelioma 7 talc, right? 8 in animals, which was a standard procedure, 8 A. Yes. 9 it was employed by the National Cancer 9 Q. And this is the 00000 talc? 10 Institute in the USA, in Washington, to check 10 A. The 00000 talc, yeah. 11 on the biological activity of mineral dusts. 11 Q. And this was the talc that at 12 Q. And how big are the injections 12 some point in time was used by Johnson & 13 to somebody who may not understand milligrams 13 Johnson in baby powder, right? 14 in what I will call normal person's talk? 14 A. Yes. 15 A. They're large. You know, in 15 Q. All right. And then there's 16 fact, it's - talc, it has been used as a 16 something called SFA chrysotile. 17 treatment for surgical procedures in humans. 17 What is that? 18 Q. Yeah. 18 A. Super fine asbestos, a sample 19 MR. LANIER: Objection. 19 of super fine chrysotile asbestos. 20 THE WITNESS: There's a history 20 Q. Yeah. 21 out there, if you like, of the 21 And then there's something 22 biological activity of talc. 22 called a saline control, right? 23 MR. LANIER: Responsive. 23 A. Yeah. Just saltwater. 24 QUESTIONS BY MR. BICKS: 24 Q. Yeah. 25 Q. That's --are you familiar with 25 And it says here 48 rats were Page 179 Page 181 1 a procedure called pleurodesis? 1 injected? 2 A. Oh, very much so, yes. 2 A. Yeah. 3 Q. And is that --tell us what 3 Q. And then how many --you're 4 that is. 4 familiar with mesothelioma; you mentioned it 5 A. It's used extensively, not just 5 a couple times, right? 6 for lungs, but if somebody has an operation 6 A. Sure. 7 and has surgery removing part of a lung, 7 Q. All right. So how many 8 then -- 8 mesotheliomas were there in the rats with the 9 MR. LANIER: What's his degree 9 Italian talc? 10 or expertise on this? 10 A. None were produced. 11 MR. BICKS: Yeah, I'll take 11 Q. And what about the SFA 12 that off. Strike that and we'll take 12 chrysotile? 13 it o ff the record. Yeah. Yeah. 13 A. 18. 18 of the 48-- 14 MR. LANIER: I mean, he claims 14 Q. All right. 15 to be an expert on a bunch o f stuff, 15 A. --succumbed to. 16 but this... 16 (Pooley Exhibit 22 marked for 17 MR. BICKS: Yeah, we'll fix 17 identification.) 18 that on the videotape. 18 QUESTIONS BY MR. BICKS: 19 QUESTIONS BY MR. BICKS: 19 Q. I think to kind of wrap us up 20 Q. In terms o f the experiment 20 here, Dr. Pooley, over time --and let me 21 here, what I want to focus on is this Table 1 21 show you Exhibit 22. 22 and ask you about this. 22 All right. This is a letter 23 So this is the results of the 23 you wrote, right? 24 intrapleural inoculation, right, o f the talc? 24 A. Yes. 25 A. Yeah. And chrysotile. 25 Q. And it indicates how many 33 (Pages 178 to 181) Golkow Technologies, Inc. 1.877.370.DEPS Frederick Pooley, Ph.D. Page 182 Page 184 1 samples you've looked at over kind of -- you 1 A. False. 2 wrote this. Do you remember this is FR - 2 Q. And in doing the work that you 3 Dr. F.R. Rolle? 3 did for Johnson & Johnson, did you try to do 4 A. Yes. 4 the best job that you possibly could? 5 Q. And he was at Johnson & 5 A. Yes. Yes, indeed. 6 Johnson? 6 Q. And based on your knowledge of 7 A. Yeah, from their analytical 7 Johnson & Johnson, had an issue been 8 laboratory in the US. 8 identified to them, what do you think would 9 Q. And I noticed, by the way, that 9 have happened? 10 most o f the people you're dealing with at 10 A. They would have taken some - 11 Johnson & Johnson are doctors, right? 11 they would have reacted, let's put it that 12 A. Yeah. Ph.D.s, yeah. 12 way. How, I don't know, but they would have 13 Q. And - 13 reacted. 14 A. And medical doctors. 14 Q. Did anybody at Johnson & 15 Q. And was that kind of the nature 15 Johnson ever pressure you to come up with 16 of the background of the folks you were 16 answers in any of your tests? 17 dealing with? 17 A. No. 18 A. Yes. Well, it was --it was a 18 Q. And how, given your background, 19 New Brunswick development laboratory, and 19 would you have reacted if someone tried to do 20 they were developing things for 20 that? 21 medically-related purposes. 21 A. Well, I would have --what's 22 Q. And it says here that you've 22 the British term? I would have given them 23 looked at material for over 30 different 23 two fingers. 24 geographical sources; you've looked at 24 MR. BICKS: I appreciate your 25 various grades produced; you've looked at 25 time, and I know that, you know, you Page 183 Page 185 1 some sources sampled over a more than 1 have health issues, and I can tell you 2 two-year period to check consistency. 2 that we appreciate that. So I pass 3 And did that include the 00000 3 the witness. 4 and Vermont? 4 MR. LANIER: Objection. Form. 5 A. Mainly the 00000. 5 MR. BICKS: I pass the witness. 6 Q. Mostly 00000? 6 VIDEOGRAPHER: The time is 7 A. Yes. 7 11:45 a.m. Going off the record. 8 Q. And you say that when you 8 (Off the record at 11:45 a.m.) 9 looked at adding these samples together, 9 VIDEOGRAPHER: Okay. We are 10 you've collected over 150 samples; is that 10 back on the record. The time is 11:57 11 right. 11 a.m. 12 A. That sort o f region, yes. 12 CROSS-EXAMINATION 13 Q. And if we looked at j u s t - 13 QUESTIONS BY MR. LANIER: 14 expanded it more and looked at all the 14 Q. Good morning, Dr. Pooley. 15 different talc work that you've done, what 15 A. Good morning. 16 would be your ballpark on how many samples 16 Q. And my name is Mark Lanier. 17 you've looked at? 17 You and I met for the first time yesterday; 18 A. Oh, I don't count them, so it's 18 is that right? 19 hundreds. 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. If someone were to stand up in 20 Q. And I'm taking your deposition 21 front of a jury and say that Dr. Fred Pooley 21 today, but the jury's not had a chance to 22 found asbestos in Johnson & Johnson baby 22 meet me because I am not trying the case for 23 powder, would that be true? 23 the Ratcliff family. It's being tried by 24 A. No. 24 some folks who work with me at the law firm, 25 Q. False? 25 Ethan and Darron, and I think Shannon and 34 (Pages 182 to 185) Golkow Technologies, Inc. - 1.877.370.DEPS Frederick Pooley, Ph.D. Page 186 Page 188 1 Mark Linder may be there as well, but I'm the 1 you weren't in on any of that, were you? 2 one taking your deposition today. 2 A. No. 3 A. Right. 3 MR. BICKS: Objection to the 4 Q. All right? 4 form. 5 A. Yes. 5 QUESTIONS BY MR. LANIER: 6 Q. What I would like to do is 6 Q. Were you in on any o f the 7 cover the things that Mr. Bicks has covered *7 meetings where Johnson & Johnson tried to 8 with you, but maybe tell the rest of the 8 measure the effect that the presence of 9 story. 9 asbestos might have? 10 Okay? 10 MR. BICKS: Objection to the 11 MR. BICKS: Objection. 11 form. 12 THE WITNESS: Yeah. 12 THE WITNESS: No. 13 QUESTIONS BY MR. LANIER: 13 QUESTIONS BY MR. LANIER: 14 Q. In other words, you-all left 14 Q. Were you in on any o f the 15 out a lot, didn't you? 15 policy discussions about who or whom the 16 A. Not that I can remember. 16 company should hire to do their tests and 17 Q. Huh. Here's one of the things 17 what kinds of tests they should do? 18 that Mr. Bicks asked you. I wrote it down. 18 A. No. 19 I've got it here on the screen so the jury 19 Q. So if we want to do this, just 20 can see the words. 20 as Mr. Bicks asked, based on your knowledge, 21 He said: "Based on your 21 it's fair for the jury to know that your 22 knowledge of J&J, had an issue been 22 knowledge is fairly limited; you don't have 23 identified, what do you think would have 23 access to the confidential documents, do you? 24 happened?" 24 A. No. 25 Do you remember being asked 25 MR. BICKS: Objection to the Page 187 Page 189 1 that? 1 form. 2 A. Yeah, earlier on. 2 QUESTIONS BY MR. LANIER: 3 Q. Yes. 3 Q. And one thing we can do, 4 A. Yeah, I said that they would 4 though, is we can look at not just based on 5 have reacted. 5 your knowledge, but based on your experience. 6 Q. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. 6 Let's just see what experience shows because 7 You remember being asked this 7 experience can dictate the truth, right? 8 question? 8 MR. BICKS: Objection to the 9 A. Yeah, by -- yes. 9 form. 10 Q. Yeah. I mean, if we really 10 QUESTIONS BY MR. LANIER: 11 want to know --you're not an expert in 11 Q. Right? 12 Johnson & Johnson, are you? 12 A. I'm not quite sure what you 13 A. Not at all, no. 13 mean. Could you sort o f-- 14 Q. You haven't seen some o f the 14 Q. Yes, experience can dictate the 15 memos and confidential documents, for 15 truth. 16 example, in this litigation, have you? 16 We can look at the experiences 17 A. No. 17 that the evidence shows happened - 18 Q. So some of - you weren't in on 18 A. Sure. 19 any of their policy meetings about what to 19 Q. - and from that evidence we 20 do, were you? 20 can decide maybe what J&J would and wouldn'i 21 A. No. 21 do, fair? 22 Q. You weren't in on any of the 22 A. Yeah. Okay. 23 meetings where they discussed what the impact 23 Q. Okay. Here's the way that I 24 might be if word got out that their products 24 would like to -- well, I've got a number of 25 had asbestos and how it would affect sales; 25 things I want to cover with you but first 35 (Pages 186 to 189) Golkow Technologies, Inc. - 1.877.370.DEPS Frederick Pooley, Ph.D. Page 1 9 0 Page 192 1 just a practical matter. 1 Q. All right. What I would like 2 You were originally listed by 2 to do is give you an idea o f where I'm going 3 Johnson & Johnson to be an expert in this 3 to cross examine you on so you and the jury 4 case and then they changed that and called 4 and the Court have an idea of where we're 5 you a fact witness. 5 going. So I've drawn this little drawing. I 6 Do you know anything about that 6 call it Fred Pooley Road. 7 change? 7 This is the roadmap for how I'm 8 A. No. Other than it's my ' 8 going to ask you questions. 9 experience confined to talc, basically. 9 Okay? 10 Q. Right. 10 A. Uh-huh. 11 But you were being asked a lot 11 Q. All right. The first thing I 12 of expert opinions about how mines work, how 12 want to do is I want to cover your 13 they don't work, you know, what geologically 13 experience. And we're going to make a stop 14 happens in a mine over X number of years, and 14 and talk about talc. And then we're going to 15 what did Mount Sinai do, and what someone's 15 make another stop, just discuss some 16 reputation. 16 integrity issues. And then we'll finish with 17 And you remember all of those 17 some cancer questions. 18 questions? 18 Okay? 19 A. Yes, because I have experience 19 A. Sure. 20 in those areas as you suggested. 20 Q. All right. And I'll try to - 21 Q. Right. 21 that will help you keep a pace of where we 22 As an expert, though; that's an 22 are and where we're going. 23 expertise you carry, right? 23 So let's start with that first 24 MR. BICKS: Objection to the 24 stop: Experience. What I'd like to do under 25 form. 25 experience is talk about a couple of Page 191 Page 193 1 THE WITNESS: Yeah. 2 QUESTIONS BY MR. LANIER: 3 Q. Okay. Well, one of the reasons 4 I'm asking you is you're charging a fee to 5 Johnson & Johnson for being here today, 6 aren't you? 7 A. Well, I'll address the invoice 8 to the - 9 Q. To the lawyers? 10 A. --law firm. 11 Q. Okay. You're charging a fee to 12 the law firm that represents Johnson & 13 Johnson, fair? 14 A. Yeah. 15 Q. And you're not charging a fee 16 just for your time; you're charging your 17 expert deposition fee, aren't you, $500 an 18 hour? 19 A. Yes. 20 MR. BICKS: Objection to the 21 form. 22 QUESTIONS BY MR. LANIER: 23 Q. Because your normal time you 24 get reimbursed at $250 an hour, right? 25 A. Yes. 1 different things. I'd like to talk about - 2 I've got them up here and we'll go through 3 each one. 4 All right? 5 A. Uh-huh. 6 Q. Let's begin with asbestos 7 industries, because you haven't been fully up 8 front with the jury about how many asbestos 9 industries you've worked for. 10 You've worked for just about 11 every asbestos company there is, haven't you? 12 MR. BICKS: Objection to the 13 form. , 14 THE WITNESS: I have no idea. 15 QUESTIONS BY MR. LANIER: 16 Q. Well, I mean, Johns Manville, 17 you worked for them, didn't you? 18 A. Did a little bit of work way 19 back, yes. 20 Q. Yeah, they're bankrupt now. 21 MR. BICKS: Objection to the 22 form. 23 QUESTIONS BY MR. LANIER: 24 Q. But they were one of the major 25 producers of asbestos, a miner o f asbestos, 36 (Pages 190 to 193) Golkow Technologies, Inc. 1.877.370.DEPS Frederick Pooley, Ph.D. Page 194 Page 196 1 and a manufacturer of asbestos, right? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. You did work for Eagle-Picher, 4 didn't you? 5 A. Yes. It's one of the names I 6 remember, yeah. 7 Q. You did work for Kent 8 cigarettes, didn't you? 9 A. You mean Lorillard, do you? 10 Q. Yeah, they make Kent 11 cigarettes? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. You did work, asbestos work, 14 for Bethlehem Steel, didn't you? 15 A. I can't remember that one. 16 Q. All right. Would it - do you 17 want to challenge it? 18 I can pull out one of your 19 depositions where you said it, if you 20 challenge it, but if it seems right to you, 21 we'll just keep moving. 22 A. Yeah. 23 Q. Does it seem right to you? 24 A. If I'v e - 25 0- You've sworn to it under oath. 1 been, if we move over to the law part of your 2 experience, is you've been, to some degree, I 3 don't want to say a professional witness, but 4 you've gotten around the block testifying in 5 asbestos cases, haven't you? 6 MR. BICKS: Objection to the 7 form. 8 THE WITNESS: Yes, a lot of 9 people have - I've looked at samples 10 from a lot of people. 11 QUESTIONS BY MR. LANIER: 12 Q. Well, no. No. That's not what 13 I said. 14 I said: You've been an expert 15 witness testifying for a lot of asbestos 16 companies. You've come in to countless 17 courtrooms and said, "Chrysotile asbestos 18 cannot cause mesothelioma," for example, 19 right? 20 A. Uh-huh. 21 MR. BICKS: Objection to the 22 form. 23 QUESTIONS BY MR. LANIER: 24 Q. Right? 25 A. Yeah. Page 195 Page 197 1 A. Yes, I've contacted or been in 1 Q. Yeah. 2 contact with very many people over the last 2 And when I say "lots of 3 50 years. 3 courtrooms," I mean, you've testified before 4 Q. You've done asbestos work for 4 in the state o f Washington, haven't you? 5 Turner & Newall, which is, or was, a British 5 A. State o f Washington? 6 company, one of the largest importers of 6 Q. Yes. 7 asbestos, right? 7 A. No, I don't think so. 8 A. Yes. 8 Q. All right. I'll pull a 9 Q. You were on a - y o u did work 9 deposition and we'll see if maybe I'm - was 10 for Kaiser Gypsum, another asbestos company, 10 it Washington, DC? 11 right? 11 A. I can't remember. 12 A. Yes. 12 Q. Huh. 13 Q. You did work for US Gypsum, 13 A. I've - I've provided some 14 didn't you? 14 information in Washington, DC, I think. 15 A. Yes. 15 Q. Well, I'm talking about 16 Q. You did asbestos work for Steel 16 testimony. 17 Grip and a bunch of small companies, right? 17 A. Oh, I see. 18 A. Possibly, yeah. 18 Q. Hired gun. 19 Q. Hollingsworth & Vose? 19 A. Oh, I see. Okay. 20 A. Yes, I know that. 20 MR. BICKS: Objection to the 21 Q. And when I say "you did work 21 form. 22 for these folks," you did litigation work, 22 QUESTIONS BY MR. LANIER: 23 didn't you? 23 Q. You've testified in Texas many 24 A. Yes. 24 times, haven't you, my state? 25 Q. I mean, what you've really 25 A. Not many times. 37 (Pages 194 to 197) Golkow Technologies, Inc. 1.877.370.DEPS Frederick Pooley, Ph.D. Page 198 Page 200 1 Q. Well, you've done it in 1 the disease, remember? 2 Beaumont. You've done it -- you remember 2 MR. BICKS: Objection to the 3 Beaumont, Texas? 3 form. 4 A. I know Beaumont, yes. 4 THE WITNESS: No, I - 5 Q. And you've done it in Houston. 5 QUESTIONS BY MR. LANIER: 6 Remember Houston, Texas? 6 Q. You don't remember that? 7 A. Yes. 7 A. I don't think so, no. 8 Q. You've testified in Georgia, 8 Q. So in which of the cases have 9 haven't you? 9 you testified where you were hired by an 10 A. I'm not sure. 10 asbestos company and you actually admitted 11 Q. You've testified many times in 11 that their product caused the mesothelioma 12 California, haven't you? 12 disease? 13 A. Yes. 13 A. I have no idea. 14 Q. Testified in Kansas, haven't 14 Q. Yeah. 15 you? 15 You've been doing this for like 16 A. Yes. 16 50 years, haven't you? 17 Q. Testified in Hawaii, haven't 17 A. No, not quite. 18 you? 18 Q. Oh, I've got you testifying 19 A. Yeah. No. I've never been to 19 back into the '70s, don't I? 20 Hawaii. 20 A. Oh, yes, that's right. I 21 Q. You testified in Hawaii 21 testified in Minneapolis. 22 litigation. You-all just did the deposition 22 Q. You got the '70s, '80s, '90s, 23 on the mainland. 23 2000s, 2010s. I mean, you're in your fifth 24 A. Oh, I see. 24 decade of doing this? 25 O- You remember? 25 A. Yeah. Page 199 Page 201 1 A. Possibly. I don't know. I 1 Q. You're like --you have more 2 never remember these cases. 2 staying power than the Beatles. 3 Q. So many you don't remember 3 MR. BICKS: Objection to the 4 them? 4 form. 5 A. Yeah. 5 QUESTIONS BY MR. LANIER: 6 Q. Minnesota cases, right? 6 Q. That's pretty good, isn't it? 7 A. Yeah. Yes. 7 A. No. 8 Q. Alabama cases, right? 8 Q. And you've made a good bit of 9 A. Yeah. 9 money over these 50 years of being an expert 10 Q. Ohio cases? 10 witness in litigation, haven't you? 11 A. Yeah. 11 A. No, not a lot. 12 Q. Virginia cases? 12 Q. Well, I mean, just look at 13 A. Yeah. 13 today. 14 Q. Right? 14 A. Uh-huh. 15 And when you've testified, 15 Q. Now, you're going to charge 16 you've testified as an expert about all sorts 16 $500 an hour? 17 of issues for asbestos, right? 17 A. Yes. 18 A. Mainly mineralogical. 18 Q. And you do an eight-hour 19 Q. No, you've testified about how 19 minimum. If we end your deposition after two 20 they work in the body? 20 hours, you're still charging eight, aren't 21 A. Oh, yes. Yes. Yes. 21 you? 22 Q. Yeah. You've testified --in 22 A. Eight hours, yeah, whatever 23 fact, you've testified in all these different 23 time I'm spent being questioned. 24 places that whoever hired you, their product 24 Q. Okay. You don't charge for an 25 was not responsible for the mesothelioma or 25 eight-hour day? 38 (Pages 198 to 201) Golkow Technologies, Inc. 1.877.370.DEPS Frederick Pooley, Ph.D. Page 202 Page 204 1 A. Oh, no. No. No. 1 hope you can see this, it was in Los Angeles, 2 Q. All right. So let's say -- 2 California? 3 what time did you start this morning? What 3 A. Yeah. 4 time did the meter go on? 4 Q. Daniel Blue versus Fiberboard, 5 A. When we walked in the room. 5 and you gave this deposition in Cardiff, 6 MR. BICKS: Objection to the 6 Wales. 7 form. 7 Do you remember that? 8 QUESTIONS BY MR. LANIER: 8 A. Yeah. 9 Q. All right. So the prep time, 9 Q. All right. 10 the time you spent with Mr. Bicks ahead of 10 A. No, I don't remember this. 11 time, you don't charge for that? 11 Q. You don't remember it? 12 A. Yeah, but it's not the rate 12 A. No. 13 that you've specified. 13 Q. Well, one of the questions that 14 Q. Ah. So the $500 an hour is for 14 I found interesting was on page 23, and it 15 time in the room? 15 was this one right here. It was a 16 A. That's right. 16 cross-examination: "Have you gone over your 17 Q. And then all the time you've 17 questions and your answers before you came 18 spent getting ready with Mr. Bicks was, what? 18 here to testify, the particular questions 19 Not free; what were you charging then? 19 asked of you?" 20 A. $250 an hour. 20 And you said: "Yes." 21 Q. What about your flight over 21 You know, you practiced. 22 here from Cardiff? 22 Remember that? 23 A. Well, I normally take the 23 A. What was the date o f this? 2 4 traveling time one day. 24 Q. This is 1990. 25______ Q. In other words, you're going to_____ 25 A. No, I don't remember it. Page 203 Page 205 1 charge eight hours -- 2 A. Eight hours, yeah. 1 Q. Okay. Well, when you --did 2 you have chance to visit with Mr. Bicks 3 Q. So to fly over here, and they 3 before you started testifying here today? 4 pay for all your expenses, too, right? 4 A. We met in the last day or two, 5 A. Oh, surely. Yeah. 5 yes. 6 Q. Yeah. 7 So a couple of grand to come 6 Q. Which one? Last day or two? 7 A. Yeah. A day or two, yes. 8 over here? 9 A. Uh-huh. 8 Q- Well, no, is it -- 9 A. Two. 10 Q. Three or four grand to 11 testify -- 10 Q. Two. Okay. Then it's not day 11 or two; it would be the last two days? 12 A. Yeah. 12 A. Yeah. 13 Q. - in here? 13 Q. And I'm only saying that 14 A couple of grand to go back? 14 because you are an engineer, aren't you? 15 A. Yeah. 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. What - I've left out your 17 practice time. 16 Q. Precision is important, isn't 17 it? 18 A. Practice time? 18 A. O f course. 19 Q. Yeah, where your time where 19 Q. I mean, the difference between 20 you've sat with Mr. Bicks and gone over some 20 last day or two, we know the answer; it's the 21 of this stuff, right? 21 last two days? 22 A. Whatever --whatever time I 22 A. Sure. 23 spent. 24 Q. No. What I mean is, for 23 Q. All right. So when did you 24 arrive in the US? 25 example, in 1990 you gave a deposition, I 25 A. My flight got in on --what day 39 (Pages 202 to 205) Golkow Technologies, Inc. 1.877.370.DEPS Frederick Pooley, Ph.D. Page 206 Page 208 1 is it today? 1 remember? 2 Q. Today is Thursday, but just 2 A. Yes. 3 till midnight. 3 Q. You're not a cancer doctor; 4 A. Okay. So I got in on - 1 left 4 you're not an oncologist, are you? 5 on Sunday, got in on ~ 5 A. No. 6 Q. Monday? 6 Q. Now, you've testified all over 7 A. Monday. 7 the US that your clients' asbestos did not 8 Q. And then did you meet with 8 cause diseases, but you've never testified as 9 Mr. Bicks on Tuesday? 9 an oncologist, fair? 10 A. Yes. 10 A. No. 11 Q. And on Wednesday? 11 Q. You're not an industrial 12 A. Yes. 12 hygiene doctor who deals with industrial 13 Q. And then today, Thursday? 13 hygiene, are you? 14 A. That's the two. 14 A. I do deal with industrial 15 Q. Got it. 15 hygiene. I'm a member of the British 16 So we're on day three. 16 Occupational Health Society. 17 A. Yeah. 17 Q. Okay. So what is your training 18 Q. S o - a l l right. All right. 18 as an - what degrees do you hold in 19 Now, I still want in my stop here on your 19 industrial hygiene? 20 experience, I want to talk about a few things 20 A. The - I've got a mining, 21 that are missing from your experience. 21 engineering degree. And a large part of that 22 When you testify here, one of 22 degree course deals with occupational health, 23 the questions Mr. Bicks asked you, he said: 23 test sampling, et cetera. 24 "As a geologist," dot dot dot. 24 Q. Well, in the United States 25 You're not a geologist, are 25 there is a specific certification. Page 207 Page 209 1 you? 1 A. Yeah. 2 A. No. I don't classify myself as 2 Q. You can be board certified as 3 a geologist. 3 an industrial hygiene doctor. 4 Q. Yeah. 4 Are you? 5 So when he asked you: "As a 5 A. We don't have that sort of 6 geologist," works well for the jury when he's 6 certification in the UK, no. 7 asking a geology question, but if we're going 7 Q. Yeah. 8 to tell the whole truth, you're not a 8 Do you have any industrial 9 geologist, are you? 9 hygiene training as a medical doctor? 10 A. No. 10 A. I don't understand what you 11 Q. You are not any type of a 11 mean. 12 chemist who deals with the chemical makeup o' 12 Q. Well, there is a medical 13 different minerals, are you? 13 specialty in the United States that deals 14 A. Are you referring to the 14 with this. 15 composition of minerals? 15 A. Oh, I didn't know that. 16 Q. Well, no. Certainly you have 16 Q. Yeah. 17 to deal with those. 17 Well, let's do it this way: Do 18 A. Yeah. 18 you have a medical degree? 19 Q. You are a mineralogist, but 19 A. No. 20 you're not a chemist by training, are you? 20 Q. So you're not an MD, are you? 21 A. No. 21 A. No. 22 Q. When we talk about whether a 22 Q. Do you have an epidemiology 23 mineral causes mesothelioma, like the test 23 degree? Are you an epidemiologist? 24 that was referenced by Mr. Bicks towards the 24 A. No. 25 end of your examination, the rat tests, 25 Q. Do you have a pathology degree? 40 (Pages 206 to 209) Golkow Technologies, Inc. 1.877.370.DEPS Frederick Pooley, Ph.D. Page 210 Page 212 1 Are you a pathologist? 1 A. Yeah. 2 A. No. 2 Q. But in the kind of academia 3 Q. And that's someone who looks at 3 where you were, you need to be publishing, 4 slides to diagnose disease, right? 4 which means you need to be getting research 5 A. Yep. 5 funds so that your research is paid for, and 6 Q. Right, sir? 6 you need to build up the department. 7 A. Yes. 7 Those things are important, 8 Q. All right. Okay. Last thing 8 aren't they? 9 on experience road that I want to zoom in and 9 A. Yes, they can be. Yeah. 10 talk about is I want to talk about your 10 Q. Yeah. 11 experience with Johnson & Johnson. 11 Okay. And so the only reason 12 Okay? 12 I'm finding this interesting is Mr. Bicks 13 A. Yes. 13 asked about Exhibit Number 1, which was youi 14 Q. Johnson & Johnson has been the 14 CV. 15 source of a lot of work and funding for you 15 A. Yes. 16 in the past, true? 16 Q. And when I was looking at your 17 A. Yeah. As we were quite busy 17 CV and I was trying to find where in here it 18 about 40 years ago, yeah. 18 says --or your resume, as Mr. Bicks called 19 Q. And they stepped in at a really 19 it. You've got it as a curriculum vitae up 20 good time because you had just --you were 20 at the top. 21 running out of your funding from the British 21 Those are the things that 22 government and they stepped in and provided 22 surround your life, if we're Latin students, 23 you with funding, didn't they? 23 right? 24 A. No. They didn't provide me 24 A. Sure. 25 with funding, no. 25 Q. But in everyday language, this Page 211 Page 213 1 Q. Well, your lab, your group? 1 is kind of a resume, fair? 2 A. Oh, yeah, the department I 2 A. Uh-huh. 3 worked in, yeah. 3 Q. And one of the things I found 4 Q. Yeah. Yeah. 4 interesting is you never put anywhere on here 5 A. They wanted some research done 5 that during the '70s, '80s, '90s, 2000s, you 6 and so we helped them out. 6 were making a substantial amount of money as 7 Q. Yeah. 7 an expert witness for the asbestos industry. 8 But I'm just saying that the 8 You leave that out of your 9 timing was really nice, because it came in at 9 professional resume, don't you? 10 a time where you were losing your funding 10 A. Well, go down to the last 11 from the government? 11 paragraph. I can't see it. 12 A. Yeah, you're talking about 12 Q. All right. Let me blow it up. 13 research funding, and it was at a time when I 13 Sorry, sir. Hold on. We'll get it large so 14 was --I became a lecturer in the department. 14 you and the jury can see it better. 15 So it didn't affect my funding, personal 15 This one that says, "Research 16 funding. 16 or consultant." 17 Q. It affected the funding of the 17 A. Yeah, you see there British 18 department in the place where you worked and 18 Medical Research Council, Health and Safety 19 hoped to continue to succeed in, fair? 19 Executive, World Health Organization, 20 A. It helped. 20 National Institute of Occupational Safety and 21 Q. Yeah. I mean, some o f - a lot 21 Health, USA and EPA and numbers of other 22 of people sometimes think academia is just 22 industrial and government organizations. 23 like maybe it was for us in high school where 23 Q. Ah. So when you tell the 24 the teachers that did a good job teaching are 24 professional world --by the way, your CV is 25 the ones who just keep the jobs. 25 what you hand out at professional meetings or 41 (Pages 210 to 213) Golkow Technologies, Inc. - 1.877.370.DEPS Frederick Pooley, Ph.D. Page 214 Page 216 1 academic meetings, right? 1 But, I mean, don't say -- you 2 A. No. I don't hand this out, no. 2 just said under the record - you just 3 Q. You've never handed out your 3 said -- let's put this up so the jury and you 4 CV? 4 can see what you just said. 5 A. No. 5 You said: I have ~ "I can't 6 Q. What do you keep a CV for? 6 make a decision on what caused the 7 Just testifying? 7 mesothelioma." 8 A. No. People like yourself ask 8 A. That's right. 9 me what I've been doing for the last few 9 Q. But what you do over and over 10 years, so I can produce this. 10 again is say that it wasn't your client's 11 Q. Ah. So, well, that's what -- 11 product that did it; you can exclude them, 12 that's what I was driving at. 12 right? 13 So when people ask you and you 13 MR. BICKS: Objection to the 14 give them this, you've listed testifying for 14 form. 15 asbestos companies about whether or not 15 THE WITNESS: No. 16 people got sick from their products as 16 QUESTIONS BY MR. LANIER: 17 "consulting for industrial organizations"? 17 Q. Well, sir, would you like me to 18 A. Yeah. 18 show you some samples of where you did that? 19 Q. That is language that means, 19 A. Yeah. Okay. 20 let's see, we could say also known as being 20 Q. Here, it might just be easier 21 paid to be a witness by asbestos companies to 21 to just pull out a Redweld of it. 22 say their products didn't cause the 22 Okay. The first one I've 23 mesothelioma. 23 pulled out is Marie Soignet versus Montello, 24 MR. BICKS: Objection to the 24 Inc., 1989, looks like you were here - - 1 25 form. 25 don't know which of these defendants you were Page 215 Page 217 1 QUESTIONS BY MR. LANIER: 1 working for. 2 Q. Is that where it fits? 2 Was it Union Carbide, Pacific 3 A. No. 3 Asbestos, Atlas Corporation, Sun Marketing or 4 Q. Well, I mean, that's what 4 Mill White? 5 you've done. I've got an entire box of your 5 Do you remember which one of 6 depositions. 6 them had hired you? 7 You understand? 7 A. Yes, you want to go back to 8 A. Sure. Yes. 8 Henry Garrard. 9 Q. And I have yet to find one of 9 Q. Ah. Henry Garrard? 10 them where you said the company that hired 10 A. Bruce Shaw. 11 me, yes, it was their asbestos that caused 11 Q. So that would be Union Carbide? 12 this person's meso. Every time you say it 12 A. Uh-huh. 13 wasn't. 13 Q. And Union Carbide, we should 14 A. Let me qualify and so I can't 14 add them, by the way, to our asbestos 15 make a decision on what caused the 15 industries. I think we left that one out. 16 mesothelioma. 16 Union Carbide had an asbestos 17 Q. Actually, you say every time 17 mine in California for chrysotile asbestos 18 that you can, that you can say chrysotile 18 called Calidria, right? 19 does not cause mesothelioma. 19 A. Yeah. 20 Did you not know you say that 20 Q. And you testified that 21 over and over? 21 chrysotile asbestos does not cause 22 A. Yeah, I know. Yes. That's 22 mesothelioma, so your client's product could 23 because I've never appeared in a case where 23 not be the cause, true? 24 chrysotile only has caused a disease problem. 24 A. Yes, I suppose you could--you 25 Q. Yeah. 25 could say that, yeah. 42 (Pages 214 to 217) Golkow Technologies, Inc. - 1.877.370.DEPS Frederick Pooley, Ph.D. Page 218 Page 220 1 Q. No, that's not you could say 1 I'm not. My degree is in Greek and Hebrew. 2 that; that's what you said, right? 2 Isn't that just horrible? 3 A. I actually say -- 3 But because you are an engineer 4 Q. Chrysotile doesn't cause 4 and precision is important, we don't ever 5 mesothelioma -- 5 want to be imprecise when we can be precise, 6 A. Oh, yeah. 6 fair? 7 Q. --so it couldn't be theirs. 7 A. If possible, yes. 8 A. Sure. 8 Q. So, for example, you told the 9 Q. Here's another one I pulled 9 jury, I asked you, I said: "How much are you 10 out. June Greear versus Union Carbide. This 10 charging for the time when you're not in the 11 one is in Atlanta, Georgia. Deposition of 11 room giving testimony?" 12 Frederick David Pooley. This is another one 12 You said: "$250 an hour." 13 back in 1989. 13 A. Yes. 14 And it looks like this is 14 Q. That's not precise. 15 another one where you are there with Henry 15 (Pooley Exhibit 23 marked for 16 Garrard firm, Bruce Shaw? 16 identification.) 17 A. Yeah. 17 QUESTIONS BY MR. LANIER: 18 Q. So, again, this is probably 18 Q. I'm going to hand you 19 Union Carbide in this one, right? 19 Exhibit 23. According to the bills we've 20 And you testified in this one 20 been selected, 11 hours? 21 that the Union Carbide chrysotile asbestos 21 A. Sure. 22 doesn't cause mesothelioma, don't you? 22 Q. At 300 per hour? 23 Hold on. I'm looking for the 23 A. Yeah. Yes. 24 language. You said -- look at the bottom of 24 MR. BICKS: I want a discount. 25 page 24: "I would still say it was not 25 THE WITNESS: No. Page 219 Page 221 1 caused by chrysotile." 1 QUESTIONS BY MR. LANIER: 2 A. Yeah. Yes. 2 Q. Yeah. You've been 3 Q. I mean, which is what your 3 overcharging, haven't you? 4 client --that was the kind of asbestos your 4 A. This is for document review and 5 client had there, right? 5 it's not just sitting in a room. 6 Right? 6 Q. Okay. Wait. Wait. Wait. 7 A. Yes. 7 Wait. 8 Q. Yeah. 8 So the jury understands, you 9 So if we look here then at your 9 got three different rates going? 10 work, have we got a fair synopsis of your 10 A. No. 11 experience that may not have been covered yet 11 Q. You got $500 if you're in the 12 by Mr. Bicks. 12 room for depositions? 13 Can you see anything else we're 13 A. Yes. 14 leaving out at this point? 14 Q. You got 250 if you're just for 15 There may be another company or 15 visiting time, we'll call it? 16 two that you did work for. 16 A. Yep. 17 A. Yeah. 17 Q. And then you got another $300 18 Q. Anything else? 18 an hour for reading time? 19 A. Well, if you could send me a 19 A. Sure. Yeah. Document review. 20 list of all these and then I can tell you 20 Q. But it doesn't say only 21 whether or not there are some missing. 21 document review - 22 Q. I don't know that that's 22 A. No. 23 necessary. 23 Q. - sir. It also says "and 24 I'll tell you what I would like 24 consultation," which is visiting, isn't it? 25 to do, though, because you're an engineer, 25 A. Yes. 43 (Pages 218 to 221) Golkow Technologies, Inc. - 1.877.370.DEPS Frederick Pooley, Ph.D. Page 222 Page 224 1 Q. So you spent time reviewing 1 Q. You understand the jury is not 2 documents, that should be 300, but I thought 2 getting $500 an hour to watch this. 3 that your visiting time is supposed to be 3 A. No. I realize that. 4 250? 4 Q. But that's not a lot o f money 5 A. No, meeting to discuss my 5 to you, $500 an hour? 6 review of the documents. 6 A. No. 7 Q. Right. 7 Q. We ought to move to England. 8 A. Yeah. 8 A. Not for performing the sort of 9 Q. That's supposed to be 250 for 9 work that I'm doing at the moment, no. 10 the visiting time? 10 Q. Performing the kind of work. 11 A. Well, I didn't review any 11 A. Yes. 12 documents in that. 12 Q. You call this a performance. 13 Q. Okay. 13 Sir, all you're supposed to do 14 A. It's what we call horses for 14 is just answer questions and tell the truth. 15 courses. 15 What's performing about that? 16 Q. It's called who did what? Say 16 A. Well, you have to answer the 17 it again? 17 question, don't you? I have to speak to you, 18* A. Horses for courses. 18 and I have to receive questions. 19 Q. I got to see how she typed 19 Q. Well, heck, you only charge 250 20 that. Horses for -- 20 an hour when you do that for Mr. Bicks. But 21 A. For courses. 21 when all a sudden the camera is turned on, 22 Q. I live --I live in Texas: I 22 even when he asking you the questions, you 23 grew up in Texas. I mean, we've got horses, 23 double your fee. 24 but I don't know about courses. Courses is 24 A. No. 25 what we take at school. 25 Q. Yes, you do, don't you? Page 223 Page 225 1 A. Yeah, and, you know, race 1 A. No. 2 courses, aren't they? 2 Q. So you didn't charge $500 an 3 Q. Oh, we call them tracks. 3 hour when he asked you questions on your 4 A. Oh. Well. 4 deposition; it's just when I do? 5 Q. Horses for tracks doesn't sound 5 A. That's right. 6 good, I guess. 6 Q. Do you really want to say that? 7 A. No. 7 Because I've got your deposition history and 8 Q. All right. I don't understand 8 you charge the same regardless of whether 9 what that means for you to say horses for 9 it's the fellow asking you or not. 10 courses. I just am asking you to be honest 10 You know that? 11 with the jury and tell them the truth about 11 A. No, I've charged various rates 12 how much you're charging in this case. This 12 over the years. 13 case alone, you've got 11 hours of reading 13 Q. So now we need to break this 14 and visiting time. You've got more time this 14 down. Now it's $500 in the room for the 15 week. You've got time in here for the 15 deposition if I'm asking the questions? 16 deposition. You've got your travel time. 16 A. Yeah. 17 I mean, you're going to make 17 Q. But it's only 250 if Mr. Bicks 18 thousands of dollars off --thousands, heck 18 is asking the questions? 19 you'll make thousands today. You're going to 19 A. No, it will be the same. 20 make a lot of money off this case alone, 20 Q. Okay. You are under oath, and 21 aren't you? 21 even though you're a British citizen, you 22 A. Not a lot, no. 22 understand perjury applies in the United 23 Q. What's a lot to you? 23 States? 24 A. A lot to me? Well, that would 24 MR. BICKS: Objection to the 25 depend what I'm doing. 25 form. 44 (Pages 222 to 225) Golkow Technologies, Inc. 1.877.370.DEPS Frederick Pooley, Ph.D. Page 226 Page 228 1 THE WITNESS: Uh-huh, sure. 1 Are you able to see Exhibit 2 QUESTIONS BY MR. LANIER: 2 Number 24? It's on the back. 3 Q. All right. You've got to tell 3 It says, "Attached as page 11 4 the truth. 4 of the current issue of a CTPA Guide where 5 So when you're performing for 5 Fred Pooley makes the suggestion any batch of 6 Mr. Bicks is $500 an hour, and when we're 6 cosmetic talc which reads positive for the 7 performing for me, it's $500 an hour; is that 7 presence of amphophiles" -- 8 what I understand? 8 Now, that's a certain kind of 9 A. Yes. 9 asbestos, right? 10 Q. Okay. Let's move down the 10 A. No, it's a mineral. 11 road. 11 Q. Well, asbestos is a mineral, 12 If you need to take a break, 12 sir, isn't it? 13 just say the word. 13 A. Sure. But this is amphophile 14 A. No, it's okay. 14 mineral. 15 Q. I mean - all right. Now, the 15 Q. Well, amphophile minerals 16 question in part is for the jury on this as 16 include - 17 we get ready to move down the road from 17 A. No, it doesn't include --you 18 experience is whether or not your work for 18 can't include chrysotile under an amphophile 19 J&J and your money that you've taken and the 19 heading. 20 asbestos industries --by the way, I left out 20 Q. It's not all asbestos. There's 21 RT Vanderbilt, too, didn't I? 21 asbestos that's not an amphophile; that's 22 A. Uh-huh. 22 chrysotile? 23 Q. Yes, sir? 23 A. True, yeah. 24 Because you were on retention 24 Q. But there are asbestos that are 25 for RT Vanderbilt, weren't you? 25 amphophiles - Page 227 Page 229 1 They've retained you to do 1 A. Sure. 2 work? 2 Q. - like tremolite? 3 A. Yes. 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. I mean, they just paid you like 4 Q. Actinolite? 5 a regular stipend or something, didn't they? 5 A. Yeah. 6 A. No. 6 Q. Anthophyllite, crocidolite. 7 (Pooley Exhibit 24 marked for 7 Those are a certain grouping of asbestos, 8 identification.) 8 right? 9 QUESTIONS BY MR. LANIER: 9 A. Yeah, of amphophile minerals. 10 Q. See, the reason I said that is 10 Yes. 11 because of this document that I saw in -- 11 Q. Yes, a kind of asbestos; is 12 we'll mark this as Exhibit Number 24. It's a 12 that more accurate? 13 document that I saw from --oh, thank you. 13 A. No, I would put it as a source. 14 A document I saw looking 14 Q. Amphophiles are a kind of 15 through the Johnson & Johnson records about 15 asbestos? 16 you. 16 A. No, they're not. Amphophiles 17 By the way, did you look 17 are not a kind of asbestos. You're talking 18 through their records on you? 18 about a mineral. The majority of amphophile 19 A. No. 19 samples are not asbestos. 20 Q. One o f the things they were 20 Q. Okay. That's fine. That's 21 talking about when they were trying to figure 21 fine. We'll fuss that at some other point. 22 out whether or not to use you in some 22 Let's see if you're not talking about 23 stuff - this is back in 1996. I guess a 23 asbestos here. 24 year after one of those depositions we were 24 "Batch of cosmetic talc which 25 just looking at. 25 reads positive for the presence of 45 (Pages 226 to 229) Golkow Technologies, Inc. - 1.877.370.DEPS Frederick Pooley, Ph.D. Page 230 Page 232 1 amphophiles should be rejected even if its 1 A. No, I was not on a retainer. 2 subsequent examination establishes whether or 2 Q. So when Johnson & Johnson says 3 not it's fibrous or nonfibrous." 3 that you're on a retainer for them, Johnson & 4 A. Right. 4 Johnson is just wrong, right? 5 Q. That was your position in '96, 5 A. I'm on a list of their 6 right? 6 individuals who they can contact, yeah, if 7 A. Sure. 7 they want help. 8 Q. You said, "The mineral 8 Q. Uh-huh. 9 tremolite is chemically a calcium magnesium 9 But not a ~ Johnson & Johnson 10 silicate and occurs in two crystallographic 10 is wrong when they say "a retainer"? 11 habits." There's fibrous, which is called 11 A. Sure, that description is not 12 tremolite asbestos, right? 12 correct. 13 MR. BICKS: Objection to the 13 Q. Okay. Now, as we leave the 14 form. 14 experience, I want to ask you just a couple 15 QUESTIONS BY MR. LANIER: 15 of questions and make sure we're on the same 16 Q. Do you see that? 16 page because we're about to get into talc and 17 A. Yes. 17 some opinions. And we're going to need to 18 MR. BICKS: You said he said 18 take a lunch break. Before we do, I want to 19 that. 19 ask you these questions. 20 QUESTIONS BY MR. LANIER: 20 True or false: Science 21 Q. And then there's prismatic or 21 shouldn't change based on who's paying you, 22 nonfibrous which is not asbestiform. 22 true or false? 23 Do you see that? 23 A. True. 24 A. Yes. 24 Q. Thank you. 25 Q. You agree with that, don't you? 25 Next. You were specifically Page 231 Page 233 1 A. Yeah, sure. 1 asked about whether or not you had appeared 2 Q. "Here in the US a controversy 2 in front of the FDA, and you even put that on 3 has been underway for 25 years. All the 3 your CV that you have, remember? 4 agencies and health-oriented groups have 4 A. Did I? 5 accepted the view only the rare fibrous 5 Q. Yeah. 6 tremolite might be hazardous as opposed to 6 Your CV says you appeared in 7 the harmless. This has been fought at many 7 front o f the FDA. 8 meetings of science groups and in the courts, 8 A. Oh, yes, I have. Yes. 9 mainly spearheaded by RT Vanderbilt, which 9 Q. Yeah. You didn't remember that 10 sells large tonnage of tremolitic talc." 10 on your -- 11 A. Uh-huh. 11 A. I've given a presentation to 12 Q. "It turns out, they have Fred 12 the FDA, yeah. 13 Pooley on retainer." 13 Q. Yeah. Yeah. 14 Do I read that correctly? 14 Do you know what role, if any, 15 A. Yeah. 15 Johnson & Johnson played in getting you in 16 Q. You're on retainer for the talc 16 front of the FDA? 17 company that's selling large tonnage of 1? A. No, not at all. 18 tremolitic talc, tremolite asbestos being a 18 Q. Because you were also asked did 19 concern? 19 anybody at Johnson & Johnson ever pressure 20 A. Repeat that question. 20 you to come up with answers in any of your 21 Q. Yeah. 21 tests. 22 Are you the Fred Pooley that 22 Do you remember that? 23 was on retainer for this company that was - 23 A. When was I asked that? 24 who sells large tonnage of tremolitic talc, 24 Q. By Mr. Bicks this morning. 25 was that you? 25 A. Yeah. Oh, yes. Sorry. Yes. 46 (Pages 230 to 233) Golkow Technologies, Inc. - 1.877.370.DEPS Frederick Pooley, Ph.D. Page 234 Page 236 1 I remember --yes. No, I -- 1 put in a box. "Can Fred Pooley handle this? 2 Q. And you said no? 2 Is he controllable?" 3 A. No. 3 A. Yeah. 4 Q. But as a practical matter, they 4 Q. Well, now, you're chuckling, 5 were paying you, weren't they? 5 but did you know that this is the way 6 A. Who? 6 industry looked at you? 7 Q. Johnson & Johnson for those 7 A. No. 8 tests. You weren't doing those 8 MR. BICKS: Objection to the 9 independently? 9 form. 10 A. Oh, no. No. No. I was 10 THE WITNESS: Not at all. 11 looking at samples for them, yes. 11 MR. LANIER: All right. 12 Q. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. 12 Let's -- we're going to move down the 13 And this was, of course, the 13 road. We're going to talk about talc 14 people who tried to figure out whether or not 14 is our next stop on the road. This 15 you were controllable. 15 might be a good time to take a break 16 Did you know that? 16 if you want to take a break for lunch 17 A. No. 17 or whatever. I'm fme either way. 18 (Pooley Exhibit 28 marked for 18 MR. BICKS: I'm worried about 19 identification.) 19 our group over here. 20 QUESTIONS BY MR. LANIER: 20 VIDEOGRAPHER: All right. The 21 Q. So in all the documents that 21 time is 12:43 p.m. We're going off 22 you reviewed for 11 hours, Mr. Bicks never 22 the record. 23 gave you the one that I'm giving you, Exhibit 23 (O ff the record at 12:43 p.m.) 24 Number 28, where the company decided whether 24 VIDEOGRAPHER: We're back on 25 or not you were controllable. 25 the record. The time is 1:16 p.m. Page 235 Page 237 1 Do you have Exhibit 28 in front 1 QUESTIONS BY MR. LANIER: 2 of you? 2 Q. Okay. Sir, we were going down 3 A. Yes. 3 the --going down Fred Pooley Road. 4 Q. This has got a presenter of 4 A. Yeah. 5 Luzenac. And if you'll look, you'll see a 5 Q. We've gone through your 6 note on the back, handwritten note. That 6 experience, and we're now going to talk about 7 says, "This is the outline which Rich 7 talc. 8 Zazenski prepared." 8 Okay? 9 Do you know the Luzenac people? 9 A. All right. 10 A. I've met people from Luzenac, 10 Q. And before the break, I had 11 yeah. 11 asked you this: "Science should not change 12 Q. Connected with Johnson & 12 based on who is paying you?" 13 Johnson? 13 And you agreed with me, right? 14 A. No. 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. Did you know that they were one 15 Q. But I've got some problems that 16 of the mines that supplied Johnson & Johnson? 16 I would like to challenge you on. 17 A. No. 17 Okay? 18 Q. "I think it's exactly what the 18 So I got a picture o f you on 19 FDA is looking for. I talked to Don 19 this sheet of paper, and I'm going to make 20 Hughes" - 20 some notes to challenge you while we go 21 Do you know Don Hughes? 21 along. 22 A. I can't remember the name, no. 22 First of all, yesterday - for 23 Q. ~ "he agrees this is what the 23 the jury's benefit, yesterday I was entitled 24 exposure data should be used." 24 to ask you some questions to leam your 25 Now, look at the bottom I've 25 opinions, what we call a discovery 47 (Pages 234 to 237) Golkow Technologies, Inc. - 1.877.370.DEPS Frederick Pooley, Ph.D. Page 238 Page 240 1 deposition. 1 Q. Well, can we at least agree 2 Remember that? 2 that science should not change based on who's 3 A. Sure. 3 paying you? 4 Q. And that's where I met you, 4 A. Yeah, sure. 5 right? 5 Q. So, I mean, if talc mines don't 6 A. Yes. 6 have asbestos in them, that should not 7 Q. And that's where I got to find 7 magically change. Those mines have been 8 out what your testimony might be in this case 8 there for millions of years, haven't they? 9 so that I could formulate how to cross 9 A. Uh-huh. The deposits, yes. 10 examine you and play this to the jury, right? 10 Q. Yes. 11 A. Sure. 11 So in that regard, let's just 12 Q. Okay. One of the things you 12 look at not only what you've said, but what 13 said to me yesterday that really stunned me 13 some other people have said. 14 is you said that talc mines don't have 14 Okay? 15 asbestos in them. 15 A. Okay. 16 Do you remember saying that, 16 Q. So, for example, are you 17 sir? 17 familiar with the Cyprus Industrial Minerals 18 A. Yes, it's the one --and I was 18 Company? 19 referring to the ones I visited, yeah. 19 A. I heard the name, yes. 20 Q. Well, I was --I don't even 20 (Pooley Exhibit 25 marked for 21 know that we had limited it - 21 identification.) 22 A. Oh. 22 QUESTIONS BY MR. LANIER: 23 Q. --so severely. I just --I 23 Q. The Cyprus Industrial Minerals 24 was trying to talk to you in general. 24 Company produced a document that's marked as 25 A. Right. 25 Exhibit Number 25. Give you a copy. Page 239 Page 241 1 Q. And let's see if I can find 1 MR. BICKS: So I'm just on the 2 your deposition. Somehow on the break things 2 record going to make sure it's clear, 3 got moved. Be patient with me for a moment, 3 I'm objecting to any document that, 4 please. 4 you know, hasn't been turned over to 5 Yesterday's deposition on 5 us. Maybe this has; maybe this 6 page 2 4 ,1just asked you pretty plainly: 6 hasn't. The one document that was 7 "Your testimony is that talc mines are not 7 used before, I don't know that I have 8 contaminated with asbestos?" 8 ever seen it. 9 You said: "That's right." 9 MR. LANIER: The one that 10 A. Yeah. 10 referenced him, the Luzenac document? 11 Q. Do you remember that? 11 MR. BICKS: Right. Anyway. 12 A- Yep. 12 MR. LANIER: All right. 13 Q. Now, that's what you say when 13 QUESTIONS BY MR. LANIER: 14 Johnson & Johnson's paying you in this case. 14 Q. Sir, do you have Exhibit 15 They paid you to give that testimony 15 Number 25 in front of you? 16 yesterday, $500 an hour, right? 16 A. Yes. 17 MR. BICKS: Objection to the 17 Q. It's on Cyprus Industrial 18 form. 18 Minerals Company Amoco letterhead, written tc 19 THE WITNESS: Yep. 19 OSHA, 1984. 20 QUESTIONS BY MR. LANIER: 20 Do you see that? 21 Q. But if we go back and we look 21 A. Yeah. 22 at other things where you're not getting 22 Q. Is that a yes answer? 23 paid, you've said differently when not paid 23 A. Yes. 24 by J&J, haven't you? 24 Q. All right. What I'm really 25 A. I have no idea. 25 interested is this Rationale Point 1, what's 48 (Pages 238 to 241) Golkow Technologies, Inc. 1.877.370.DEPS Frederick Pooley, Ph.D. Page 242 Page 244 1 said down here, and I would like you to look 1 A. Yeah. Talc and asbestos, yes. 2 at it with me. 2 Q. Yeah. 3 It says, "Talc and asbestos are 3 Okay. Now, let's just set 4 mineralogically similar." 4 aside what that group has found, and let's be 5 Do you agree with that? 5 honest about what you've said when J&J wasn't 6 A. Yes. Chrysotile is very 6 paying you to testify. 7 similar to talc in terms of its structure, 7 A. Uh-huh. 8 yes. 8 MR. BICKS: Objection to the 9 Q. "And may be found in the same 9 form. 10 orebody." 10 QUESTIONS BY MR. LANIER: 11 That means the same mine, 11 Q. You have found amphophile 12 doesn't it? 12 tremolite in talc, which is asbestos, haven't 13 A. Yeah. Yeah, you'll find talc 13 you? 14 in chrysotile mines, yes. 14 A. No. Where have I said it's 15 Q. "The concentration of asbestos 15 asbestos? 16 can range from over 50 percent to less than 16 Q. Amphophile tremolite is 17 .2 percent by weight." 17 asbestos, isn't it? 18 Do you see that? 18 A. No. 19 A. Yeah. 19 Q. Sir, do you remember you 20 Q. So - now, that's not what 20 testified about the World Health 21 you're saying, but we've still got the range 21 Organization; remember that? 22 of asbestos in talc mines according to Cyprus 22 A. Sure. Yeah. 23 Industrial Minerals is 50 percent to 23 Q. The World Health Organization 24 .2 percent by weight. 24 is one of the authorities on this, aren't 25 Do you see that? 25 they? Page 243 Page 245 1 A. Yeah. That's in an asbestos 1 A. Yeah. 2 mine, isn't it? 2 (Pooley Exhibit 26 marked for 3 Is it a talc mine they're 3 identification.) 4 talking about? 4 QUESTIONS BY MR. LANIER: 5 Q. Sir, all I know is it's sitting 5 Q. I'll give you a document marked 6 here talking about their mines. 6 26, and it's the publication that the World 7 MR. BICKS: Objection to the 7 Health Organization put out on chrysotile 8 form. 8 asbestos. 9 QUESTIONS BY MR. LANIER: 9 A. All right. 10 Q. It sure seems to be talking 10 Q. Do you see the World Health 11 about a talc mine. If you look, it says, 11 Organization on chrysotile asbestos? 12 "The proposed standard with respect to 12 A. Yep. 13 non-asbestos-containing talc and asbestos, so 13 Q. In this document, the World 14 we request bulk materials containing only 14 Health Organization - and they are the 15 small trace amounts of asbestos be exempt 15 authority on this, aren't they? 16 from the standard." 16 A. No, I wouldn't say that. 17 Do you see that? 17 Q. You would not say that? 18 A. Yeah. 18 A. No. 19 Q. And their rationale for that is 19 Q. Who is more authoritative than 20 the similarity. It's talking about talc here 20 they are? 21 and talc standards. 21 A. On what? 22 MR. BICKS: Objection to the 22 Q. On these issues of 23 form. 23 asbestos-related diseases and where it's 24 QUESTIONS BY MR. LANIER: 24 found. 25 Q. Do you see that? 25 A. I wouldn't say that the World 49 (Pages 242 to 245) Golkow Technologies, Inc. 1.877.370.DEPS Frederick Pooley, Ph.D. Page 246 Page 248 1 Health Organization was. 1 Do you see that? 2 Q. Who is more so than they are? 2 A. Yep. 3 A. Oh, people who work in the sort 3 Q. And it says, "The principal 4 of asbestos or asbestos disease area. 4 varieties of asbestos are chrysotile" - 5 Q. Well, sir, those are the people 5 A. Yep. 6 who you said that you were one of their folks 6 Q. And that's the serpentine 7 who did the work for them? 7 material; that means it's shaped curly, 8 A. That's right, because they 8 right? 9 didn't know much about it. 9 A. No, serpentine is a type of 10 Q. But, sir, if you've done work 10 rock. 11 for them, surely you know what they have to 11 Q. Okay. That's fair. 12 say, don't they? 12 A. Chrysotile is a form of 13 A. No, I don't know what they have 13 serpentine rock. 14 to say. 14 Q. And we won't fuss why that rock 15 Q. Look at this. On page 2, "The 15 is called that right now. 16 term 'asbestos'" -- 16 - "and crocidolite, amosite, 17 MR. BICKS: Do you have an 17 anthophyllite, tremolite and actinolite, 18 extra one of those? 18 which are amphophiles." 19 MR. LANIER: Just the one I 19 Do you see that, sir? 20 gave him. I'm sorry, I thought I had 20 A. Yeah. 21 more copies of these things, and I 21 Q. Now, that's what the WHO says, 22 just didn't know which ones I was 22 doesn't it? 23 going to use, and I'm bulked up as 23 A. Yes. 24 best as I could. 24 Q. It says that, "Exposure to 25 25 asbestos," in the very next one, "Including Page 247 Page 249 1 QUESTIONS BY MR. LANIER: 1 chrysotile, causes cancer o f the lung, the 2 Q. "The term 'asbestos' designates 2 larynx, the ovary" --ovarian cancer -- 3 a group of naturally occurring fibrous 3 "mesothelioma." 4 serpentine or amphophile minerals." 4 Do you see that? 5 Do you see that? 5 A. Yep. 6 MR. BICKS: He's not even on 6 Q. So tremolite is a principal 7 the same page. 7 variety of asbestos. 8 MR. LANIER: Oh, I'm sorry. 8 Do you see that? 9 THE WITNESS: Where are you 9 A. Yeah. Where does it say that? 10 talking? 10 Q. Well, that was the sentence 11 MR. LANIER: I'm on page 2. 11 that I highlighted and we just read. 12 THE WITNESS: Oh, yeah, page 2. 12 A. "Exposure to asbestos, 13 I've got it, yeah. 13 including chrysotile causes" --it doesn't 14 QUESTIONS BY MR. LANIER: 14 say that -- 15 Q. Yeah. 15 Q. Look at the sentence right 16 And you see where it says, 16 before what you're reading. "The principal 17 "Asbestos is one of the most important 17 varieties" -- 18 occupational carcinogens," that means cancer 18 A. Yeah. 19 causers? 19 Q. --"are chrysotile, 20 A. Uh-huh. 20 crocidolite, amosite, anthophyllite, 21 Q. Do you see that? 21 tremolite." 22 A. Yep. 22 Do you see that? 23 Q. It says, "The term 'asbestos' 23 A. Yep. 24 designates a group of naturally occurring 24 Q. So according to the WHO, 25 fibrous serpentine or amphophile minerals." 25 tremolite is a principal variety o f asbestos. 50 (Pages 246 to 249) Golkow Technologies, Inc. 1.877.370.DEPS Frederick Pooley, Ph.D. Page 250. Page 252 1 Do you see? 1 references, the footnote. 2 A. I'm not following your line. 2 Do you see it? 3 Q. Sure. 3 A. No, not really. 4 A. Tremolite is not a, you know ~ 4 Q. All right. Let's --here's 5 Q. Tremolite -- 5 where we land -- 6 A. --a principal form of 6 A. Oh, I see you. 7 asbestos. 7 Q. Yeah. 8 Q. Well, that's what it says. 8 So the principal varieties of 9 A. Well, I wouldn't believe it. I 9 asbestos - 10 said that's why I question the document. 10 A. You said page 5. 11 Q. Tremolite is a principal 11 Q. Yeah. 12 variety o f asbestos. And that's by the World 12 --they include tremolite, so 13 Health Organization, correct? 13 we can make that note here according to the 14 A. Well, it's by somebody writing 14 WHO. 15 it for the World Health Organization, yeah. 15 Fair? 16 Q. And put out by the World Health 16 A. Yep. 17 Organization? 17 Q. All right. We'll label this 18 A. Yeah. 18 asbestos. 19 Q. Which you in your CV and in 19 Now, in this regard, sir, 20 your testimony to the jury, you even bragged 20 you've said when you were not being paid by 21 about the fact that they've asked you to do 21 Johnson & Johnson, you said that you had 22 work for them before? 22 found tremolite in talc, hadn't you? 23 A. Sure. They didn't ask me to 23 A. Yep. 24 write this document. 24 Q. So what the World Health 25 Q. No. No. This wasn't written 25 Organization says is a principal variety of Page 251 Page 253 1 by people who are getting paid by asbestos 1 asbestos, it is something that Fred Pooley 2 companies. 2 found this in talc, didn't you? 3 A. No, they got - 3 A. Yeah, I found - we found 4 MR. BICKS: Objection to the 4 tremolite in association with the talc. 5 form. 5 Yeah. 6 THE WITNESS: - p a i d a lot 6 Q. Not just in association with 7 more maybe. 7 the talc. You found it in the talc. You 8 QUESTIONS BY MR. LANIER: 8 also found it in the finished product, didn't 9 Q. Oh, they didn't --no, sir. 9 you? 10 Where do you know that? 10 A. I can't remember. Where did 11 Where do you know that the 11 you get that from? 12 person who wrote this is getting paid? 12 Q. I got that from testimony you 13 A. Well, he's probably still 13 gave for money but it wasn't Johnson & 14 employed by them. 14 Johnson. It was when someone else's asbestos 15 Q. Sir, he gives a footnote there, 15 was being blamed. 16 footnote 4. You can look on page 5 and see 16 MR. BICKS: Objection to the 17 footnote 4, asbestos. This is air quality 17 form. 18 guidelines for Europe. 18 QUESTIONS BY MR. LANIER: 19 A. Yeah. 19 Q. Let me show you the deposition. 20 Q. The second edition, put out by 20 You gave this testimony in 1990 21 the World Health Organization Regional 21 in that Blue versus Fiberboard case that you 22 Office. 22 and I discussed earlier. 23 Do you see that, sir? 23 A. Yeah. 24 A. On page 5, is it? 24 Q. Do you remember that case? 25 Q. That's on page 5, yes, sir, the 25 A. Sure. 51 (Pages 250 to 253) Golkow Technologies, Inc. 1.877.370.DEPS Frederick Pooley, Ph.D. Page 254 Page 256 1 Q. In that case you said on 1 in London. 2 page 34: "What types of minerals are 2 Does that ring a bell? 3 included in the industrial definition of 3 A. Oh, yeah, but I've never been 4 talc?" 4 to Beaumont. 5 And you said: "One finds talc, 5 Q. Right. Right. The case was 6 carbonate, magnesium, calcium. There are 6 there. 7 small --sometimes there are small quantities 7 Page 16: "Did you 8 of amphophile minerals such as tremolite" ~ 8 determine" -- well, you said: "What I have 9 A. Yeah. 9 done there is some actual laboratory work 10 Q. --present." 10 with some talc samples." 11 Do you see where you said that? 11 Do you see that? 12 A. Yeah. 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. And you were asked again: 13 Q. And the question: "Did you 14 "We've already discussed tremolite and some 14 determine whether it was asbestos in the 15 of the amphophile contaminants." 15 talc?" 16 And you said: "Yes, that the 16 You said: "We examined it 17 mines were contaminated by tremolite." 17 mineralogically, yes." 18 Right? 18 Now, this was work you were 19 A. Yes, tremolite could be found 19 doing for Johnson & Johnson, I believe, 20 in the mine. Yeah. 20 right? 21 Q. And tremolite, so that we're 21 A. I have no idea. 22 clear --let's get our other sheet we had up 22 Q. "Did you find asbestos in the 23 here - according to the World Health 23 talc?" 24 Organization is a principal variety of 24 When Johnson & Johnson wasn't 25 asbestos, the kind of asbestos that causes 25 paying you to testify, your answer was in Page 255 Page 257 1 mesothelioma and ovarian cancer, right? 1 that sample: "There was a trace of 2 A. Yeah. 2 asbestos." 3 Q. That's the WHO, right? 3 MR. BICKS: Objection to the 4 A. Yeah. That's what they said, 4 form. 5 yeah. 5 QUESTIONS BY MR. LANIER: 6 Q. Yeah. Now, that's not the only 6 Q. Do you see that? 7 time before you were getting paid by Johnson 7 A. Yep. 8 & Johnson when you testified that you had 8 Q. So we've got you testifying 9 found asbestos contaminants in talc, is it? 9 that there is a trace of asbestos in talc 10 MR. BICKS: Objection to the 10 when you tested talc? 11 form. 11 A. Uh-huh. 12 QUESTIONS BY MR. LANIER: 12 Q. When you're not paid by Johnson 13 Q. That's not the only time, is 13 & Johnson, right? 14 it? 14 MR. BICKS: Objection to the 15 A. I can't remember, but I'm sure 15 form. 16 you've got it there. 16 QUESTIONS BY MR. LANIER: 17 Q. Oh, sure. Let's look at 17 Q. Cimino you were not paid by 18 another piece of testimony. This is one you 18 Johnson & Johnson, were you? 19 gave in Beaumont in the Cimino case back in 19 A. No, I don't know who I was paid 20 Beaumont, Texas, back in 1990. 20 for - paid by, rather. 21 Do you remember testifying in 21 Q. Yeah. Yeah. 22 the Cimino case in Beaumont? 22 That was one of these that had 23 A. No, I didn't. 23 Henry Garrard. He was the guy that hired you 24 Q. It's the deposition of 24 a lot, wasn't he? 25 Frederick David Pooley at the Stafford Hotel 25 A. Sure. Yeah. 52 (Pages 254 to 257) Golkow Technologies, Inc. 1.877.370.DEPS Frederick Pooley, Ph.D. Page 258 Page 260 1 Q. And this time it was Pittsburgh 1 tremolite is very rare. It's not a 2 Coming, it looks like, that you were working 2 commercial asbestos mineral. Although it's 3 for, right? 3 called asbestos tremolite, you'll have 4 A. Yeah. 4 difficulty finding anywhere around the world 5 Q. So, by the way, on our asbestos 5 that mines the mineral and sells it." 6 industries chart, I think we left them out as 6 It's only basically available 7 one of the ones you've done work for, 7 as a contaminant, except in Turkey, right? 8 Pittsburgh Coming. 8 A. Yes. - 9 Okay. Now, so when you're 9 Q. In fact, you said: "I know of 10 working for Pittsburgh Coming, you say that 10 only one little mine, and it's in the middle 11 you do find asbestos when you've tested talc, 11 of Turkey." 12 right? 12 A. That's right. 13 MR. BICKS: Objection to the 13 Q. "And so the exposure to 14 form. 14 tremolite comes from a wide range of sources. 15 THE WITNESS: Yes. 15 For example, it's possible that you might 16 QUESTIONS BY MR. LANIER: 16 have used a talcum powder which contained a 17 Q. All right. Now, those, again, 17 small amount of tremolite in it, for 18 aren't the only two times just in my little 18 example." 19 review of your deposition history when you've 19 A. Yes. 20 said that. 20 Q. So when you're testifying for 21 You've said it more times than 21 Kent cigarettes, you say talcum powder is 22 that, haven't you? 22 contaminated with tremolite, and that's in 23 A. I have no idea. 23 the end product? 24 Q. You even said as recently as 24 A. Yeah. 25 2000 in Minnesota, State of Minnesota, County 25 Q. But again, you weren't Page 259 Page 261 1 of St. Louis, Richard Carlson versus 1 testifying for Johnson & Johnson in a talcum 2 Lorillard Tobacco Company. They're the ones 2 powder case in that one. You were working 3 who made Kent cigarettes. 3 for Kent cigarettes, right? 4 You did a lot of work for them, 4 A. Yes. 5 remember? 5 Q. Now, we started this whole 6 A. Yes. 6 discussion out with my concern that science 7 Q. And so in this deposition back 7 should not change based upon who is paying 8 in 2000, your testimony that you gave on 8 you? 9 page 2012: "Let's shift over to tremolite. 9 A. Yes. 10 Is tremolite an amphophile?" , 10 Q. But your science seems to shift 11 Do you see that? 11 depending upon who is paying you, doesn't it? 12 A. Yes. 12 A. No. 13 Q. And, of course, tremolite is 13 Q. Talc mines don't have asbestos 14 the one that we've been talking about where 14 in them unless you're working for Pittsburgh 15 the World Health Organization said it's a 15 Coming, Kent cigarettes or one of the other 16 principal variety of asbestos, and I told you 16 asbestos companies, right? 17 you had found it in talc and in finished 17 A. You're referring to tremolite 18 product. 18 now, are you, or tremolite asbestos? 19 Remember? 19 Q. I'm referring to tremolite, a 20 A. Yes. 20 principal variety of asbestos according to 21 Q. "What are the ranges there in 21 the World Health Organization. 22 terms of the normal population in an 22 A. Yeah, well, I said this 23 industrial area?" 23 document is a -- not very good. 24 And you start talking about it: 24 Q. No. You started out by saying 25 "It depends on the source of exposure and how 25 that the jury should listen to you because 53 (Pages 258 to 261) Golkow Technologies, Inc. - 1.877.370.DEPS Frederick Pooley, Ph.D. Page 262 Page 264 1 you've done work for the World Health 1 A. Other sources of material that 2 Organization. 2 are referred to as being asbestos, yes. 3 A. No, I didn't say that at all. 3 (Pooley Exhibit 27 marked for 4 Q. Sure, the jury heard it. It 4 identification.) 5 was on your CV. 5 QUESTIONS BY MR. LANIER: 6 Now, the bottom line is, is 6 Q. Yeah. 7 you've talked about talc mines being 7 And I've handed you Exhibit 8 contaminated by asbestos yourself, haven't 8 Number 28. If we go back to something you 9 you? 9 wrote back in 1992, this is --did I put a 10 A. I can't remember. 10 sticker on your copy, sir? 11 Q. Well, here's your CV. 11 A. Yes. 12 A. Yeah. 12 Q. What does that sticker say? 13 Q. Exhibit 1. It's one of the 13 A. Exhibit 27. 14 things that you put on your brag sheet, your 14 Q. And it's this article? Okay. 15 stud sheet. 15 I went out of the order. Thank you very 16 A. Yeah. 16 much. 17 MR. BICKS: Objection to the 17 This is Exhibit 27. 18 form. 18 A. Talc pneumoconiosis. 19 QUESTIONS BY MR. LANIER: 19 Q. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. 20 Q. Consultant on biological 20 A. The pathological and 21 effects of mineral dusts, collection and 21 mineralogical study. 22 quantification to World Health Organization. 22 Q. You're the F.D. Pooley on this, 23 A. That's right. 23 aren't you? 24 Q. So I said that's one of things 24 A. That's right. 25 that you bragged about on your CV, and you 25 Q. And you've got here - 1think Page 263 Page 265 1 said no. 1 there's a typo because it says "tail" when it 2 I mean, it's on there; I didn't 2 ought to say "talc." 3 make that up, did I? 3 A. Sure. 4 A. No. No. 4 Q. That should be "talc," right? 5 Q. And now you're saying that 5 A. Yep. 6 they're garbage and not to be believed? 6 Q. All right. "Minerals that may 7 MR. BICKS: Objection. 7 contaminate talc include tremolite" -- 8 THE WITNESS: No, I'm referring 8 Do you see that? 9 to the document you gave me. 9 A. Yeah. 10 QUESTIONS BY MR. LANIER: 10 Q. - "anthophyllite" - 11 Q. Well, sir, I'll refer to a 11 Do you see that? 12 document you wrote -- 12 A. Yeah. 13 A. Which has got chrysotile 13 Q. Anthophyllite, I guess. I 14 asbestos written on it. 14 don't ever pronounce it right. 15 Q. Yeah. 15 ~ "antigorite" ~ 16 Well, chrysotile is asbestos, 16 A. Yeah. 17 isn't it? 17 Q. - "chrysotile"? 18 A. Oh, sure it is. Yeah. Yeah. 18 A. Yeah. 19 Q. Okay. And those aren't the 19 Q. Those are asbestos, aren't 20 only kinds. The asbestos isn't just 20 they? 21 chrysotile and tremolite. There are other 21 A. Yeah. 22 varieties of asbestos, aren't there? 22 And you've forgotten tremolite, 23 Aren't there? 23 didn't you? 24 A. Yes, there are. 24 Q. Yeah. 25 Q. And - 25 A. Yeah. 54 (Pages 262 to 265) Golkow Technologies, Inc. 1.877.370.DEPS Frederick Pooley, Ph.D. Page 270 Page 272 1 all fours. This is the Cimino deposition or 1 Q. Can I have the WHO again, 2 testimony that you gave in 1990 and on 2 please? 3 page 16, you specifically used the word in 3 No, not really? 4 the process of Q and A: "Did you determine 4 A. Yeah, don't believe everything 5 whether it was asbestos in the talc?" 5 you read. 6 "We examined it 6 Q. Well, the World Health 7 mineralogically, yes." 7 Organization exhibit again, 26 or whatever 8 "Did you find asbestos in the 8 number it was. Principal varieties, 9 talc?" 9 actinolite. 10 "In that sample, there was a 10 Do you see that? 11 trace of asbestos." 11 A. Yeah. 12 That's your word. 12 Q. And you're going to fuss and 13 A. Yeah. 13 say that they're wrong on actinolite being a 14 Q. So you swear under oath one day 14 principal variety of asbestos? 15 "I found a trace of asbestos when I tested 15 A. Yeah. 16 the talc," and then you turn around today and 16 Q. All right. So anything that 17 you say, "The talc mines don't have asbestos 17 they call asbestos, you just say it's not 18 in them and the talc products don't." 18 asbestos because it's in the talcum powder; 19 MR. BICKS: Objection to the 19 is that where we are? 20 form. 20 A. No. 21 QUESTIONS BY MR. LANIER: 21 Q. All right. But they say, at 22 Q. Do you see why those two seem 22 least, actinolite is a principal variety? 23 to be a little inconsistent? 23 A. They do, yes. 24 A. Oh, yeah, I do, because it's 24 Q. O f asbestos? 25 confusing whether you're talking about 25 A. Yeah. Page 271 Page 273 1 asbestos fibrous tremolite or fibrous 1 Q. And, of course, the jury may 2 anthophyllite. So you can have the mineral, 2 not be surprised to find out, you found 3 but you needn't have the form. 3 actinolite, that principal variety of 4 Q. Sir, you just said you had 4 asbestos, you found it in the J&J Vermont 5 asbestos in there, and yet you tried to tell 5 mine, didn't you? 6 the jury that you don't have asbestos in the 6 MR. BICKS: Objection to the 7 talc. The bottom line is, as you've sworn, 7 form. 8 you have asbestos in talc. 8 THE WITNESS: I fo u n d -w e 9 You've seen it in the finished 9 found a sample, yes, containing 10 product, haven't you? 10 actinolite, but it wasn't asbestiform. 11 MR. BICKS: Objection to the 11 QUESTIONS BY MR. LANIER: 12 form. 12 Q. Well, asbestiform is talking 13 THE WITNESS: I haven't seen 13 about the size. That's all that means. 14 asbestos in the finished product, no. 14 A. Yeah, it's talking about 15 QUESTIONS BY MR. LANIER: 15 fibers. 16 Q. Sir, you said that you had in 16 Q. Yeah, it's talking about the 17 the Kent cigarette testimony we looked at. 17 size and shape? 18 A. Yeah. 18 A. Yeah. 19 Q. Tremolite in the talcum powder 19 Q. It's not talking about the 20 end product? 20 mineral content, correct? 21 A. Sure. Yeah. 21 A. Asbestos? 22 Q. Okay. Heavens, you found 22 Q. No. When you say "it was not 23 actinolite. That's another variety of 23 asbestiform" -- 24 asbestos, isn't it, actinolite? 24 A. Sure. 25 A. No, not really. 25 Q. --you're just talking about 56 (Pages 270 to 273) Golkow Technologies, Inc. 1.877.370.DEPS Frederick Pooley, Ph.D. Page 274 Page 276 1 the size; you're not talking about the 1 Q. Do you see that? 2 mineral? 2 A. Yedi. 3 A. Yeah, it didn't have the form 3 Q. It says, "Shelley reports that 4 of asbestos. 4 Pooley's found actinolite in our Vermont talc 5 Q. In your definition? 5 by his concentrating technique." 6 A. Yes. 6 A. No. No. 7 Q. So you're going to look at it 7 Q. Do you see that? 8 and say, "No, I think asbestos should be 8 A. Yeah, I see it. Yeah. Yeah. 9 shorter than this or longer than this or 9 Q. See, because Mr. Bicks asked 10 wider than this or narrower than this," 10 you if you ever found any asbestos in any 11 because you've come up with an arbitrary 11 Johnson & Johnson product or mine. 12 decision of what that is? 12 A. And I said no. 13 A. No. 13 Q. Yeah, you said, "I never did." 14 Q. Well, what does the World 14 A. Nope. 15 Health Organization say about it? 15 Q. But, boy, when we look inside 16 A. Well, they say it's asbestos, 16 the confidential documents that are redacted 17 and I say it's not asbestos. Asbestos, yeah. 17 and that are protected and subject to a 18 Q. They say it's asbestos and 18 protective order and not to be given out, 19 they're not getting paid to testify for 19 Shelley reports Pooley has found actinolite 20 either side in this case. 20 in our Vermont talc. 21 A. No. 21 MR. BICKS: Objection to the 22 Q. And they're the ones that the 22 form. 23 governments and everybody looks to for having 23 QUESTIONS BY MR. LANIER: 24 the worldwide scientific knowledge on this, 24 Q. Do you see that? 25 and you're going to get paid for 50 years to 25 A. Yeah. Page 275 Page 277 1 come in to court and testify for everyone 1 Q. And that actinolite, according 2 that's got anything to do with asbestos and 2 to the World Health Organization, is a 3 you're going to change what's asbestos and 3 principal variety o f asbestos, right? 4 what's not. 4 A. No --well, they say it is, 5 M R.BICKS: Objection. 5 yeah. 6 QUESTIONS BY MR. LANIER: 6 Q. Yeah. 7 Q. Is that where we are? 7 So we've got Pooley also, 8 MR. BICKS: Objection to the 8 according to J&J, in 1970 --what's the date 9 form. 9 on that Exhibit Number 29? 1973? 10 (Pooley Exhibit 29 marked for 10 A. Uh-huh. 11 identification.) 11 Q. Pooley, you got actinolite in 12 QUESTIONS BY MR. LANIER: 12 the Vermont --in J&J Vermont mine. 13 Q. Is that where we are? 13 True? 14 A. No. 14 A. Yes, if you say so. 15 Q. Because even in 1973, according 15 Q. Well, I mean, that's Johnson & 16 to Pooley Exhibit Number 29 --I'm sorry, 16 Johnson said so; it's not me. 17 sir, you shouldn't have to stand up. I'll 17 A. All right. 18 stand up and get it to you. No, I apologize, 18 Q. You found anthophyllite, and 19 that's not fair to you, and please accept my 19 anthophyllite, even you'll admit, is an 20 apology. I'll do better. 20 asbestos, won't you? 21 This is a Johnson & Johnson 21 A. It has been used as an asbestos 22 document back in 1973. 22 mineral. 23 A. Yeah. 23 Q. Yeah, it's an asbestos mineral, 24 Q. The baby product company. 24 isn't it? 25 A. Uh-huh. 25 A. Yes, it has been used as an 57 (Pages 274 to 277) Golkow Technologies, Inc. 1.877.370.DEPS Frederick Pooley, Ph.D. Page 278 Page 280 1 asbestos mineral. 1 Q. You disagreed with Mount Sinai. 2 Q. Yeah. 2 They found more of them than you. You could 3 You're not going to fuss with 3 only find five; is that right? 4 the World Health Organization and say, "Oh, 4 A. Yeah, they had a pretty good 5 they're wrong when they say" -- 5 lab. 6 A. Yeah. 6 Q. British talcum products, 7 Q. --"that anthophyllite is a 7 "Similarly 18 products were examined by 8 principal variety of asbestos." 8 Dr. Pooley. He verified one product as 9 You agree, don't you? 9 containing anthophyllite. 10 A. It has been mined, yeah, for 10 A. Yeah. 11 asbestos. 11 Q. Even though the Mount Sinai 12 (Pooley Exhibit 30 marked for 12 people said they found it in --tremolite in 13 identification.) 13 three and anthophyllite in a fourth. 14 QUESTIONS BY MR. LANIER: 14 A. Uh-huh. 15 Q. That's Exhibit Number 30. 15 Q. Do you see that? 16 Here's a copy for counsel. 16 A. Yep. 17 This is another Johnson & 17 Q. Now, if we're looking then in 18 Johnson document that we've marked as Exhibit 18 1976, in 1976, you found asbestos 19 Number 30. 19 anthophyllite, right? 20 Are you able to see the Johnson 20 A. Yeah. 21 & Johnson letterhead in 1976? 21 Q. And that's in the finished 22 A. Yeah. Sure. 22 product? 23 MR. BICKS: Let's give him time 23 MR. BICKS: Objection to the 24 to look at it. 24 form. 25 25 Page 279 Page 281 1 QUESTIONS BY MR. LANIER: 1 QUESTIONS BY MR. LANIER: 2 Q. It says, "A total of 38 samples 2 Q. Isn't it? 3 originating from the lab at Mount Sinai." 3 A. Yeah, of which talc? Was it a 4 A. Yeah. 4 J&J talc or -- 5 Q. Now, this is the hospital 5 Q. Well, I don't know. Probably 6 laboratory that you and Mr. Bicks testified 6 not whoever is paying you today. 7 about with a number of different scientists, 7 MR. BICKS: Objection to the 8 and you-all tried to use the 1976 write-up by 8 form. 9 the fellow who was the head of the hospital 9 QUESTIONS BY MR. LANIER: 10 or something. 10 Q. I mean, we don't know which 11 Remember that? 11 talc it is, do we? 12 A. Yeah. 12 MR. BICKS: Objection to the 13 Q. "They were examined by Dr. F.D. 13 form. 14 Pooley." 14 THE WITNESS: Well, you ought 15 That's you, isn't it? 15 to because they weren't --they 16 A. Yeah. 16 weren't my samples, you know. 17 Q. For American talcum products, 17 QUESTIONS BY MR. LANIER: 18 "A total of 20 samples, corresponding to 19 18 Q. No, sir. This is Johnson & 19 different products, were subjected to 19 Johnson's document. If you got a question ~ 20 examination by X-ray and electron microscope. 20 and Johnson & Johnson never says in here, 21 Dr. Pooley verified five products contained 21 "Hey, don't worry, it's not ours," do they? 22 several percent by weight of fibrous 22 A. No. 23 anthophyllite asbestos." 23 Q. No. I mean, Johnson & Johnson 24 Do you see that? 24 doesn't say, "Glory be, at least it's not our 25 A. Yeah. 25 product," do they? 58 (Pages 278 to 281) Golkow Technologies, Inc. 1.877.370.DEPS Frederick Pooley, Ph.D. Page 282 Page 284 1 A. It's a Mount Sinai product, 1 you talking about? 2 isn't it? 2 Q. I'm talking about the samples 3 Q. No, sir. 3 that Johnson & Johnson was talking about that 4 A. Isn't it? 4 you did. 5 Q. No, sir. 5 A. The ones I had from Mount 6 The samples originated from 6 Sinai? 7 Mount Sinai, but it says these samples were 7 Q. Yes. Here's my problem: When 8 19 different American products. 8 you listen to your testimony from Mr. Bicks, 9 A. Right. 9 it sounds like you never found asbestos 10 Q. All I'm saying is, is Johnson & 10 anywhere. 11 Johnson on their letterhead where they talked 11 A. Yeah. No, that's incorrect. 12 about them having asbestos in them -- 12 MR. BICKS: I'm just going to 13 A. Uh-huh. 13 say this, and I'll do it on redirect 14 Q. --that you found asbestos -- 14 if I have to do it, but either you 15 A. Yeah. In some of those 15 didn't listen to about two and a half 16 samples, yes. 16 hours of direct where we went over a 17 Q. Yeah. 17 whole bunch of exhibits, including the 18 --does not say, "Hey, at least 18 ones you're talking about, which show 19 it wasn't our product." 19 that there have been findings of 20 They don't, do they? 20 asbestos. 21 A. Yeah. 21 MR. LANIER: I'm going to 22 Q. Huh? 22 object to you coaching the witness 23 A. Well, somebody produced them. 23 right now. 24 Who produced them? 24 MR. BICKS: But it's really - 25 Q. Well, I suspect if Johnson & 25 MR. LANIER: Please don't coach Page 283 Page 285 1 Johnson had it as a Johnson & Johnson 1 the witness, Peter. Peter, you've got 2 product, they might not say. But if it was 2 redirect opportunity. Please don't 3 not J&J, I can almost guarantee you they 3 coach the witness. 4 would have said, "At least it's not our 4 QUESTIONS BY MR. LANIER: 5 product." 5 Q. Sir, you swore to me under oath 6 MR. BICKS: Objection to the 6 yesterday that talc mines don't have asbestos 7 form. 7 in them -- 8 QUESTIONS BY MR. LANIER: 8 MR. BICKS: Objection to the 9 Q. Don't you agree? 9 form. 10 A. I don't know. 10 QUESTIONS BY MR. LANIER: 11 Q. Earlier didn't you say Johnson 11 Q. --and that's false, isn't it? 12 & Johnson is the most popular talc product 12 A. Well, you can find the minerals 13 out there? 13 in the mine. 14 A. Sure. Yeah, or was, is, yeah. 14 Q. So when you swore - 15 Q. Yeah. 15 A. Whether they're asbestos or not 16 Okay. So while you say talc 16 is a different thing. 17 mines don't have asbestos in them, somehow 17 Q. Sir, you've said you found 18 you're getting this product with asbestos in 18 asbestos in the finished talc product. 19 it at the end, aren't you, when you're not 19 That's after they've cleaned and purified it 20 getting paid by Johnson & Johnson? 20 and tried to get it out. 21 MR. BICKS: Objection to the 21 A. Which sample was that? 22 form. 22 Q. It's the one we just looked at, 23 QUESTIONS BY MR. LANIER: 23 sir. It was the Mount Sinai group. There 24 Q. Right? 24 were 20 samples. You found anthophyllite 25 A. I'm not sure. What samples are 25 asbestos in one of them. 59 (Pages 282 to 285) Golkow Technologies, Inc. 1.877.370.DEPS Frederick Pooley, Ph.D. Page 286 Page 288 1 A. Yeah. Okay. 1 powder." 2 Q. Okay. 2 A. Uh-huh. 3 A. Yes. 3 Q. Do you see that? 4 Q. I mean, look ~ 4 A. Yep. 5 A. Yeah. So you can find, yeah, 5 Q. Now, I didn't make this up, did 6 in some samples, yes. 6 I? 7 Q. So when you swore under oath 7 A. No. No. No. No. 8 yesterday and earlier that talc mines don't 8 Q. And if we believe what you and 9 have asbestos in them, something J&J paid you 9 Mr. Bicks said, that when Johnson & Johnson 10 to do, $500 an hour, that was a false 10 finds that out, they'll quit selling it or 11 statement? 11 they'll put a warning label on and everything 12 MR. BICKS: Objection to the 12 will stop. 13 form. 13 A. Yeah. 14 QUESTIONS BY MR. LANIER: 14 Q. Then we ought - we shouldn't 15 Q. We can look at a wealth of 15 be having any more baby powder after 1973, 16 testimony where we've shown it's false, 16 should we? 17 right? 17 MR. BICKS: Objection to the 18 MR. BICKS: Objection to the 18 form. 19 form. 19 THE WITNESS: I don't know. 20 QUESTIONS BY MR. LANIER: 20 QUESTIONS BY MR. LANIER: 21 Q. It's just false, isn't it? 21 Q. According to -- 22 MR. BICKS: Objection to the 22 A. It's a business decision, isn't 23 form. 23 it? 24 THE WITNESS: I think we're 24 Q. Yes. 25 talking about different mines. 25 "According to their first test, Page 287 Page 289 1 (Pooley Exhibit 31 marked for 1 the content was 1.59 percent." 2 identification.) 2 A. Right. 3 QUESTIONS BY MR. LANIER: 3 Q. "On our request they tested 4 Q. All right. Let me give you 4 another sample, and the result on that was 5 Pooley Exhibit Number 31. Pooley Exhibit 5 .3 percent. During the period 6 Number 31, it's another Johnson & Johnson 6 August/November, we've had continuous 7 document. 7 contacts with them. We've supplied with all 8 This is Johnson & Johnson 8 the data and comments we've gotten from J&J 9 Benelux BV. I think that means that it's out 9 USA and J&J UK." 10 of Amsterdam, the Dutch. 10 A. Yeah. 11 Do you see that? 11 Q. "We also asked them clearly not 12 A. Yeah. 12 to make any publications about asbestos in 13 Q. And if we look at it --and 13 baby powder before we agreed with their 14 this is dated 1973. 14 findings." 15 A. Yeah. 15 A. Yeah. 16 Q. The subject line is asbestos in 16 Q. "Because they did not accept 17 baby powder. 17 our arguments against their method of 18 Do you see that? 18 testing, we've proposed a discussion between 19 A. Yeah. 19 our experts and theirs." 20 Q. Here's a summary about the 20 A. Right. 21 subject. 21 Q. Because what Johnson & Johnson 22 A. Uh-huh. 22 did, and what you did, is used very 23 Q. "During the month August, the 23 interesting testing techniques to try and 24 Dutch consumer organizations informed us 24 show that there was no asbestos, right? 25 they've determined asbestos in Johnson's baby 25 MR. BICKS: Objection to the 60 (Pages 286 to 289) Golkow Technologies, Inc. 1.877.370.DEPS Frederick Pooley, Ph.D. Page 290 Page 292 1 form. 1 QUESTIONS BY MR. LANIER: 2 QUESTIONS BY MR. LANIER: 2 Q. The government wasn't getting 3 Q. Right? 3 paid by you, was it? 4 A. I don't understand what you're 4 A. No. 5 saying. 5 Q. You're the one where they 6 Q. Well, you're the one that J&J 6 wanted to know - the e-mail's out there, the 7 sent in to fight for them on this. They 7 letter's out there, would you be compliant, 8 hired you to go be their guy to try and 8 and if so, they would have you testify, 9 change the Dutch people's mind, didn't they? 9 remember? 10 A. No. I haven't been to Holland. 10 MR. BICKS: Objection to the 11 Q. It says that "there will be a 11 form. 12 discussion about this scheduled 12 THE WITNESS: What, that 13 December 19th, and the meeting will be joined 13 scribble on the back o f that letter, 14 by Mr. Pooley and Mr. Sloan of Johnson & 14 you mean? 15 Johnson England." 15 QUESTIONS BY MR. LANIER: 16 They even associate you as 16 Q. Uh-huh. 17 being of Johnson & Johnson England. 17 A. I have no idea who wrote that. 18 A. Yeah. 18 Q. Well, I'll tell you what we do 19 Q. Do you see that? 19 know, we do know that back in 1973, the 20 A. Well, I didn't go to a meeting. 20 company knew about a Dutch consumer --the 21 I'm not... 21 Dutch consumer organization finding it in 22 Q. So when you swore that there 22 Johnson's baby powder, and the company never 23 was no asbestos in the baby powder, did the 23 told you about it, kept it hush-hush, right? 24 company never show you this privileged, 24 MR. BICKS: Objection to the 25 confidential document? 25 form. Page 291 Page 293 1 A. No, I've never seen it. 1 QUESTIONS BY MR. LANIER: 2 MR. BICKS: Objection to the 2 Q. Do you read Dutch? 3 form. 3 A. No. 4 QUESTIONS BY MR. LANIER: 4 Q. The company never told you 5 Q. They never showed you this one? 5 about it, did they? 6 A. No. 6 MR. BICKS: Objection to the 7 Q. Huh. Because you would think 7 form. 8 if they were going to have you do their 8 THE WITNESS: No, that's the 9 testing back in the '70s -- 9 first time I've ever seen that 10 A. Uh-huh. 10 information. 11 Q. - and they had the Dutch 11 QUESTIONS BY MR. LANIER: 12 equivalent of the EPA, I guess, or whatever, 12 Q. So if we're trying to examine 13 the Dutch consumer organization, the 13 whether or not the product might have 14 government organization, finding the 14 asbestos in it, this is even outside of what 15 asbestos, you would sure think they'd tell 15 you've done. The Dutch have found it, 16 you about it, wouldn't you? 16 haven't they? 17 A. No. Why should they? 17 A. Yeah. They found 18 Q. Because they wanted you to be 18 anthophyllite, yeah. So they say. 19 their clean bill of health. 19 Q. In baby powder. 20 A. No, they wanted a sort of an 20 What was the year on that? 21 unbiased result. 21 A. 1973, isn't it? 22 Q. Well, sir, it's kind of hard to 22 Q. And you say it's the first time 23 get more unbiased than the government. 23 you heard about it. 24 MR. BICKS: Objection to the 24 Did you not know that the 25 form. 25 company said they were going to try and meet 61 (Pages 290 to 293) Golkow Technologies, Inc. - 1.877.370.DEPS Frederick Pooley, Ph.D. Page 294 Page 296 1 with you and use you to refute this? 1 been identified, what do you think would have 2 A. No. Never. 2 happened?" 3 Q. Because when I said to you, I 3 You said: "Oh, I think that 4 said: "Well, did the company ever show it to 4 they would have taken it seriously and pulled 5 you?" You said: "No. Why should they." 5 the product," or something like that. 6 (Pooley Exhibit 32 marked for 6 Remember? 7 identification.) 7 A. Yeah. They would have acted. 8 QUESTIONS BY MR. LANIER: 8 Q. Yeah, acted. 9 Q. Look at Exhibit Number 32, 9 A. Yeah. 10 please. 10 Q. Uh-huh. But what they did - 11 Do you have Exhibit 32 in front 11 we've got the Dutch example, among others, of 12 of you? 12 them saying, "We'll send in Fred Pooley." 13 A. Yeah. 13 A. Yeah. 14 Q. Here it is, Johnson & Johnson. 14 Q. And then they never sent in 15 This looks British to me, Cosham? 15 Fred Pooley. 16 A. Yeah. 16 A. No. 17 Q. Portsmouth? 17 MR. BICKS: Objection to the 18 A. That's right. 18 form. 19 Q. You'll see back in 1973, "We've 19 QUESTIONS BY MR. LANIER: 20 recently --we recently encountered some 20 Q. Though, this is at a time when 21 adverse publicity in Holland in which a Dutch 21 you were doing work --if we go back to 22 consumer organization claimed J&J baby powder 22 experience road, you were doing a lot of work 23 has asbestos. Ian, Fred Pooley and I will 23 for J&J at the time, weren't you? 24 probably be over there seeing the health 24 A. Yeah. 25 authorities on or about the 8th of January. 25 Q. They've got you flying all over Page 295 Page 297 1 We plan to reassure everyone concerned our 1 the world for them, don't they? 2 baby powder is completely free of asbestos." 2 A. Not really, no. 3 A. Yeah. 3 Q. Well, where were you flying on 4 Q. "Apparently Fred's flying to 4 that last exhibit in front of you? 5 Duluth on the 18th o f December. It's just 5 A. Duluth. 6 possible he may stop by New Brunswick." 6 Q. Duluth, Minnesota - 7 That's New Jersey, the J&J 7 A. Yeah. 8 headquarters, right? 8 Q. --from England. 9 A. Yeah. 9 And then they say maybe you'll 10 Q. But you're saying that they 10 go by New Jersey on the way back. 11 never talked to you about it? 11 A. Oh, yes. I delivered a device 12 A. No, they never set that meeting 12 for concentrating impurities in talc. 13 up. 13 (Pooley Exhibit 33 marked for 14 Q. They just seem to have ignored 14 identification.) 15 it based on you? 15 QUESTIONS BY MR. LANIER: 16 A. And I'm flying to Duluth to 16 Q. Yeah. 17 appear in a trial there. 17 And then we can go further and 18 Q. See, one of the things that we 18 we can look at Exhibit Number 33. When you 19 ask at the beginning is --you were asked 19 swore to the jury under oath in response to 20 what do you think J&J would do if they got 20 Mr. Bicks' questions that there had been no 21 bad news. 21 asbestos ever found in the Johnson & Johnson 22 A. Uh-huh. 22 mines and product, we can look at your 23 Q. You said: "Based on your 23 January 1977 tests letter. 24 knowledge of J&J" --this is the question, 24 Do you see that? 25 the way Mr. Bicks asked it: "Had an issue 25 A. Yeah. 62 (Pages 294 to 297) Golkow Technologies, Inc. 1.87-7.370. DEPS Frederick Pooley, Ph.D. Page 298 Page 300 1 Q. And when we look at that, this 1 (Pooley Exhibit 34 marked for 2 is another one where you said, "We have found 2 identification.) 3 in the Vermont composite fibers of 3 QUESTIONS BY MR. LANIER: 4 antigorite" -- 4 Q. Well, in his deposition, which 5 A. Uh-huh. 5 maybe will get played, I hope, Exhibit 6 Q. - "which I would like to 6 Number 34 is being used and it's being 7 confirm using another sample." 7 handwritten. 8 Do you see that? 8 "What did testing reveal," and 9 A. Down at the bottom? 9 Mr. Hopkins in his deposition has had to 10 Q. Yes, sir. 10 admit that testing revealed that from 1970 11 A. Oh, yes. Composite fibers of 11 on, fibrous talc tremolite, tremolite and 12 antigorite, yeah. Okay. 12 actinolite in '71; '71, fibrous materials of 13 Q. Antigorite, that's another one? 13 tremolite and actinolite; asbestos-type 14 A. Sure. 14 materials, tremolite, actinolite in '73; 15 Q. But you don't consider that 15 actinolite by Pooley in '73; McCrone in '74, 16 asbestos either, do you? 16 chrysotile; more chrysotile fibers by McCrone 17 A. No. It's not an asbestos 17 in '74; Cyprus tremolite, possibly 18 mineral, no. 18 chrysotile; McCrone, asbestos; Miller to 19 Q. Okay. Now, sir, I'm going to 19 McCrone, fibers of asbestos; again, McCrone, 20 try and show the jury - I've got a chart I'm 20 '75, fibers of asbestos; fibers of 21 working on of Johnson & Johnson mine test 21 antigorite. Goes on and on, page after page, 22 results that have been done by different 22 through the '70s and through the '80s finding 23 folks. 23 the asbestos in Johnson & Johnson's products 24 A. All right. 24 from testing. 25 Q. And hopefully we'll get this 25 Did you know about any of Page 299 Page 301 1 finished and be able to show this to the 1 these? 2 jury. It's over 900 test results, most of 2 MR. BICKS: Objection to the 3 which are often private, but ones that show a 3 form and use o f the document. 4 presence of tremolite or amphophiles or 4 THE WITNESS: No. 5 asbestos -- 5 QUESTIONS BY MR. LANIER: 6 A. Uh-huh. 6 Q. So Mr. Bicks said this, I wrote 7 Q. - - by different names. TheJ&J 7 it down: "If someone were to stand up in 8 Battelle testing and others. And your 8 front of a jury and say that Dr. Pooley found 9 testimony is: "I just never saw that stuff," 9 asbestos in J&J baby powder, would that be 10 or have you seen over 900 positive tests? 10 true?" 11 MR. BICKS: Objection to the 11 Do you see that? 12 form. 12 A. Yeah. 13 THE WITNESS: No. 13 MR. BICKS: I thought I said 14 QUESTIONS BY MR. LANIER: 14 true or false. 15 Q. For asbestos? 15 QUESTIONS BY MR. LANIER: 16 A. I know nothing about that. 16 Q. And the bottom line is, if 17 Q. Right now --whose deposition 17 people want to know the whole truth, what you 18 was this? 18 would say is, based on the documents, the 19 Do you know Mr. Hopkins? 19 Dutch found it; a number of other people have 20 A. The name is not familiar. 20 found it; you found anthophyllite in finished 21 Q. He's giving a deposition for 21 talc product; you found amphophile in 22 Johnson & Johnson talc right down the hall in 22 tremolite; you found the mines are 23 asbestos. 23 contaminated by tremolite; you've found 24 Did you know about that? 24 traces of asbestos testing the talcum powder; 25 A. No. 25 you believe talcum powder can have tremolite 63 (Pages 298 to 301) Golkow Technologies, Inc. - 1.877.370.DEPS Frederick Pooley, Ph.D. Page 302 Page 304 1 in the end product; you found the talcum 1 the results, the data. Where is it, you 2 powder or talc mines with tremolite, 2 know, chrysotile? 3 anthophyllite and chrysotile; and you found 3 Q. Sir, you've seen it. We've 4 actinolite in the Vermont mine. 4 covered the reviews of it. Here, let's look 5 That's the fuller story, isn't 5 at some more together. 6 it? 6 (Pooley Exhibit 35 marked for 7 MR. BICKS: Objection to the 7 identification.) 8 form. 8 QUESTIONS BY MR. LANIER: 9 THE WITNESS: That's the whole 9 Q. Examination of Johnson & 10 story of what? 10 Johnson baby powder. I want to show you one 11 QUESTIONS BY MR. LANIER: 11 of the reports that was put out before 12 Q. O f all we've covered so far in 12 Johnson & Johnson forced the company doing 13 your deposition, fair? 13 the report to change it. 14 MR. BICKS: Objection to the 14 Okay? We'll mark it as 15 form. 15 Exhibit 35. 16 QUESTIONS BY MR. LANIER: 16 Do you have that in front of 17 Q. Yeah. I mean, we've covered 17 you? 18 this, haven't we? 18 Do you have that in front of 19 A. Yeah. We've covered it, yes. 19 you, sir? 20 Q. All right. Next. Mr. Bicks 20 A. Yeah. Here it is. 21 showed you a document on inhaled particles 21 Q. Yeah. 22 marked Exhibit 21. I'm trying to understand 22 And the only reason I'm saying 23 the import of this. 23 that is we've got a video record of it, but 24 Animal experiments with talc. 24 we have to have a typed record as well. I 25 A. Yeah. 25 don't mean to seem impertinent, so somebody Page 303 Page 305 1 Q. Do you remember him talking to 1 reading it needs to see that you've got it in 2 you about this? 2 front of you. 3 A. Yes. 3 A. Right. 4 Q. So if I'm understanding this, 4 Q. Okay. This is an examination 5 what Mr. Bicks has said is talc itself 5 of Johnson & Johnson's baby powder, but it 6 doesn't cause mesothelioma, but chrysotile 6 says, "Do not use this report. Replaced by 7 asbestos does. 7 another version." 8 Are you really willing to say 8 Now, you don't know the 9 that? 9 background of why they did that, do you? 10 MR. BICKS: Objection to the 10 A. No. 11 form. 11 Q. "Summary, two samples of 12 THE WITNESS: Well, yeah, you 12 Johnson & Johnson baby powder which 13 can induce mesothelioma in animals 13 correspond to samples examined by Professor 14 with chrysotile, yes. 14 Lewin of New York on behalf of the FDA have 15 QUESTIONS BY MR. LANIER: 15 been examined," all of this stuff. 16 Q. And chrysotile is one of the 16 "Both samples contained an 17 contaminants that's been found in Johnson & 17 insignificant amount of tremolite" --and 18 Johnson baby powder, isn't it? 18 we'll discuss whether or not there is such a 19 MR. BICKS: Objection. 19 thing later ~ "neither sample contained 20 THE WITNESS: I haven't found 20 chrysotile." 21 it. 21 A. Uh-huh. 22 QUESTIONS BY MR. LANIER: 22 Q. Do you see that? 23 Q. I didn't - wasn't my question, 23 A. Yes. 24 sir. 24 Q. Now, as a practical matter, had 25 A. I don't know. I haven't seen 25 you ever been shown this examination of 64 (Pages 302 to 305) Golkow Technologies, Inc. 1.877.370.DEPS Frederick Pooley, Ph.D. Page 306 Page 308 1 Johnson & Johnson's baby powder? 1 this report, it's replaced by another. 2 A. No. 2 Let me show you what replaced 3 Q. Do you know whether or not the 3 it. This is the old one. All right. You 4 finished report, the substitutionary report, 4 may be saved by me misplacing it. I'm going 5 kept in that language of the tremolite that 5 to come back to that in a moment. I need 6 was found? 6 that, please. 7 MR. BICKS: Objection to the 7 Now, one thing that I was 8 form. 8 really curious about when Mr. Bicks went 9 THE WITNESS: I'm sorry, I'm 9 through this with you and you-all talked 10 not following your line of reasoning. 10 about the Mount Sinai test results. It was 11 QUESTIONS BY MR. LANIER: 11 Exhibit 19. 12 Q. Well, here's my reasoning. 12 Do you still have Exhibit 19 in 13 Here's what I'm asking you: McCrone put out 13 front of you? It's this one right here. 14 a report that said there was tremolite. 14 A. Yes, I've got it. 15 See that? 15 Q. Of the 20 products, half of 16 A. Uh-huh. 16 them had tremolite and anthophyllite, 17 Q. Tremolite. 17 principally asbestiform, some also contained 18 And tremolite, as we know, 18 fragmented forms of these minerals. 19 according to the World Health Organization ~ 19 And then Mr. Bicks made a great 20 where is my WHO handout? I keep losing it. 20 display of going through the various numbers 21 No, the one that says --as we know, 21 trying to match up which ones were Johnson & 22 tremolite is a principal variety of asbestos, 22 Johnson baby powder. 23 right, according to the WHO? 23 Remember that? 24 A. Yeah. 24 A. Uh-huh. 25 Q. So examining Johnson & 25 Q. How do you know which ones are Page 307 Page 309 1 Johnson's baby powder, this sample finds that 1 Johnson & Johnson's baby powder? 2 tremolite - now, by the way, so the jury 2 A. I don't know. 3 will remember, Walter McCrone, this is one of 3 Q. I mean, Mr. Bicks was saying it 4 those testing agencies that you said are 4 was numbers 4, and he's calling out these 5 really, really good when Mr. Bicks asked you. 5 numbers. 6 You said they are recognized, 6 You don't know, do you? 7 they know their stuff, and they do it right, 7 A. No, other than they must have 8 correct? 8 had something written on the can they were 9 A. Yeah. 9 using. 10 Q. Did you know actually they just 10 Q. Something what? 11 worked for the asbestos industry back then? 11 A. They must have had something 12 MR. BICKS: Objection to the 12 written on the can that they were using. 13 form. 13 Q. Yeah, but you got no clue; this 14 THE WITNESS: No idea. 14 article doesn't tell you. 15 QUESTIONS BY MR. LANIER: 15 You got to do a Frankenstein 16 Q. Did you know that they'll 16 and put this together with something else and 17 change their reports if their people paying 17 try to hope it makes it coherent. 18 them ask them to? 18 I mean, can you find anywhere 19 MR. BICKS: Objection to the 19 in this article where you're willing to 20 form. 20 testify on which number sample is Johnson & 21 THE WITNESS: No idea. 21 Johnson's? 22 (Pooley Exhibit 36 marked for 22 A. No, I can't find it. 23 identification.) 23 Q. So that's Mr. Bicks testifying; 24 QUESTIONS BY MR. LANIER: 24 that's not you, fair? 25 Q. All right. So, look, don't use 25 MR. BICKS: Objection to the 65 (Pages 306 to 309) Golkow Technologies, Inc. 1.877.370.DEPS Frederick Pooley, Ph.D. Page 310 Page 312 1 form. 1 A. No. 2 QUESTIONS BY MR. LANIER: 2 Q. All right. You got Exhibit 37 3 Q. It's Mr. Bicks saying -- 3 in front of you? 4 Mr. Bicks saying none of these are Johnson & 4 A. Yeah. 5 Johnson products; that's not you. 5 Q. And Exhibit 37, specifically 6 You don't know, do you? 6 says it's Johnson & Johnson, 1973? 7 MR. BICKS: Objection to the 7 A. Yeah. 8 form. 8 Q. "Pooley described a fiber as a 9 QUESTIONS BY MR. LANIER: 9 particle with parallel sides and at least a 3 10 Q. The question pending, sir, 10 to 1 length to width aspect ratio. He also 11 you've had a chance to read through the whole 11 reports Vermont talc contains about 1 percent 12 document. Yeah. No. No, I was just waiting 12 of fibrous talc." 13 for an answer. 13 Did J&J get that wrong, or is 14 A. Oh, no, I can't -- 14 that true? 15 MR. BICKS: I thought we were 15 A. I can't remember making that 16 waiting for a question. 16 comment. 17 QUESTIONS BY MR. LANIER: 17 Q. You don't know if that's true 18 Q. I said: "Can you find anywhere 18 or not? 19 in this article where you're willing to 19 A. Oh, here, the --yes, you do 20 testify which number sample is Johnson & 20 get talc particles which have a 3 to 1 actual 21 Johnson's"? 21 ratio, yes. 22 A. I have no idea. 22 Q. So you reported Vermont talc 23 Q. You just had a chance and read 23 contains about 1 percent of fibrous talc, 24 through the entire article -- 24 fair? 25 A. Yeah. 25 A. No, fibrous particles. Page 311 Page 313 1 Q. --didn't you? 1 Q. It says he reports -- 2 So you don't have anything 2 A. Oh, yes, sorry. The fact that 3 other than Mr. Bicks telling you which one is 3 it's fibrous and it is talc, it's fibrous 4 Johnson & Johnson, fair? 4 talc, yeah. 5 A. Yep. 5 Q. All right. 6 Q. Okay. Last question on this 6 A. Yeah, logically. 7 before we move on down the road from talc. 7 Q. That's a true statement then -- 8 In the --ah, did I miss 8 A. Yeah. 9 something? We've got a few more stops with 9 Q. --that you reported Vermont 10 talc. 10 talc contains 1 percent o f fibrous talc? 11 Okay. In the talc mines where 11 A. Yeah. 12 Johnson & Johnson gets their baby powder, did 12 Q. Thank you. 13 you ever find fibrous talc? 13 All right. Now, to summarize 14 A. No. No. 14 our stop here on the road for talc, the talc 15 (Pooley Exhibit 37 marked for 15 mines. 16 identification.) 16 A. Uh-huh. 17 QUESTIONS BY MR. LANIER: 17 Q. You showed some pictures with 18 Q. Let me give you Exhibit 36. 18 Mr. Bicks that had like people going inside 19 Let me give you Exhibit 37. 19 the mine. 20 Here, give you Exhibit 37, sir. 20 A. Sure. Yeah. 21 A. Okay. 21 Q. But there were also open pits, 22 Q. Fibrous talc is regulated, too, 22 weren't there? 23 isn't it? 23 A. No. As far as I'm aware there 24 A. I have no idea. 24 were no open pit, open pit mine there. 25 Q. You didn't know that? 25 Q. You didn't know? 66 (Pages 310 to 313) Golkow Technologies, Inc. 1.877.370.DEPS Frederick Pooley, Ph.D. Page 314 Page 316 1 A. No. There weren't when I went 1 product, any reasonable company would warn, 2 and visited it anyway. 2 true? 3 Q. So they didn't put you in any 3 MR. BICKS: Objection to the 4 of the open pit mines where they would 4 form. 5 explode dynamite and have this big explosion 5 THE WITNESS: Yes. 6 and all the dust cloud and everything -- 6 QUESTIONS BY MR. LANIER: 7 A. No. 7 Q. And the last thing I want to 8 Q. --and then go in there to try 8 cover with you are the testing methods, 9 and figure out what's what? 9 because there are different ways to test for 10 A. No. 10 asbestos, aren't there? 11 Q. So your talc mines are always 11 A. Yeah, there are a limited range 12 closed, never open? 12 of techniques. 13 A. Uh-huh. 13 Q. There are different ways to 14 MR. BICKS: Objection to the 14 test for asbestos, aren't there? 15 form. 15 A. Yeah. 16 QUESTIONS BY MR. LANIER: 16 Q. I asked you yesterday and you 17 Q. Is that right? 17 told me that you had never heard of the 18 A. Yeah. Well, this was an 18 concentration method. 19 underground mine, not an open pit mine, yeah. 19 Remember that? 20 When I visited the place, yeah. 20 A. Yeah. 21 Q. All right. And then we've 21 Q. In fact, the concentration 22 already got on talc an understanding from the 22 method is one of the best methods and most 23 International Agency on the Research of 23 important ones, isn't it? 24 Cancer, that's IARC, right? 24 A. I have no idea. I don't know 25 A. Yes. 25 what - 1 don't know how it's performed. Page 315 Page 317 1 Q. And that's a part o f the World 2 Health Organization, right? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. World Health Organization is 5 the group that says tremolite's a principal 6 variety of asbestos? 7 A. Yeah. 8 Q. So they define asbestos as 9 including tremolite, chrysotile, 10 anthophyllite and actinolite, true? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. And all o f those have been 13 found by various people in talc, correct? 14 MR. BICKS: Objection to the 15 form. 16 QUESTIONS BY MR. LANIER: 17 Q. True? 18 A. Yes, the minerals. Yes. 19 Q. Uh-huh. And a good number of 20 those have been found in Johnson's baby 21 powder as well by different people, true? 22 A. Yes, people have said 23 they've... 24 Q. And you'll be quick to tell 25 this jury if there is, in fact, asbestos in a 1 Q. So you don't even know what it 2 is? 3 A. Yes, that's right. 4 Q. Pooley doesn't know what - 1 5 guess that means you haven't done it then, 6 huh? 7 A. No, I'm not --I'm not familiar 8 with the process. 9 Q. But, I mean, the different ways 10 you test can make a difference in whether or 11 not you find something, can't it? 12 I asked you yesterday what your 13 hobbies were. 14 You remember that? 15 A. Vaguely, yes. 16 Q. And you didn't tell me cooking. 17 A. Gardening. 18 Q. Gardening. 19 A. Yeah. 20 Q. What kind of stuff do you plant 21 in your garden? 22 A. Flowers, vegetables. A whole 23 range of stuff, yeah. 24 Q. Do you ever plant radishes or 25 carrots? 67 (Pages 314 to 317) Golkow Technologies, Inc. - 1.877.370.DEPS Frederick Pooley, Ph.D. Page 318 Page 320 1 A. Carrots, yes. 1 Q. I can probably put on two 2 Radishes, no. 2 paperclips and I'm still not going to get 3 Q. Okay. Real, real small seeds? 3 anything on a bathroom scale, right? 4 A. Yeah. 4 A. Uh-huh. 5 Q. What a lot o f people will do 5 Q. So whether or not the 6 when they plant them in a home garden --at 6 measurement you're using is sensitive enough 7 least over here, I don't know about over 7 to pick it up allows you to either say, you 8 there --is they'll take like a shaker that 8 know, put that on the bathroom scale, those 9 you would use in the kitchen for like sugar 9 two paperclips, it will say zero, nondetect, 10 or something that's got holes in the top. 10 and you'd have zero, even though there's 11 A. Sure. 11 something there. 12 Q. Here, I can kind o f draw it. 12 Are you with me? 13 They take like - it's got holes in the top 13 A. Yes. 14 and they fill it up with the seeds and they 14 Q. When if you put it on a more 15 shake the seeds out. So it's a way to kind 15 sensitive scale, it might tell you that 16 o f get those seeds out there. 16 you're at .01 gram, right? 17 A. Yeah. 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. O f course, the only seeds that 18 Q. So how you test for asbestos is 19 are going to get out are seeds that are 19 something that can be important because you 20 smaller than the holes, right? 20 want to have a sensitive test. That's the 21 A. True. Yes. 21 language that's used, right? 22 Q. You're not going to get a 22 A. Yes. 23 watermelon seed out a little shaker that's 23 Q. And some tests just aren't 24 designed to put out little carrot seeds, 24 sensitive enough, right? 25 right? 25 A. Yes. Page 319 Page 321 1 A. True. 1 Q. So did you ever know 2 Q. Same principle is there with 2 Dr. Blount? 3 like cooking, a lot o f people who bake will 3 A. No. 4 use scales to weigh out their ingredients. 4 Q. Doesn't ring a bell? 5 A. Sure. 5 A. No. 6 Q. There's a difference between a 6 Q. A.M. Blount. 7 bathroom scale that we might stand on that's 7 (Pooley Exhibit 38 marked for 8 going to tell us how much we weigh and a 8 identification.) 9 cooking scale that's going to tell us down to 9 QUESTIONS BY MR. LANIER: 10 the tenth of a gram how much something 10 Q. I want to show you a paper by 11 weighs. 11 Dr. Blount and I've --the next exhibit 12 You follow me? 12 number is 38. So we'll mark it as 38. This 13 A. Yes. 13 paper came out in 1991. I'm not throwing it 14 Q. So, for example, I can take 14 at you, but I'm trying to keep you from 15 this paperclip and it exists; it's for real, 15 having to get up. 16 right? 16 And Dr. Blount in 1991 talked 17 A. Yes. 17 about amphophile content of cosmetic and 18 Q. And if I put it on a 18 pharmaceutical talc. 19 sensitive-enough scale, it's going to --it's 19 A. Uh-huh. 20 going to show us it's there? 20 Q. Do you see that? 21 A. Yes. 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. But I put this on a bathroom 22 Q. And this is a 1991 article. 23 scale, it's going to act as if there's 23 She's in the geology department at Rutgers 24 nothing there? 24 University in Newark. 25 A. Yes. 25 A. Yeah. 68 (Pages 318 to 321) Golkow Technologies, Inc. 1.877.370.DEPS Frederick Pooley, Ph.D. Page 322 Page 324 1 Q. And she talks about how 1 are you? 2 important it is to use the right test or you 2 A. No. 3 will get a finding that says there's no 3 Q. And in that she finds a great 4 asbestos when, in fact, there is asbestos. 4 deal more asbestos present? 5 A. Uh-huh. 5 A. How does she identify the 6 Q. But you're not familiar with 6 asbestos? 7 her method, are you? 7 Q. She does it off o f shape, et 8 A. Nope. 8 cetera, I'm sure. 9 Q. She says the method proposed by 9 A. Using an optical microscope? 10 the FDA is to weigh out 1 milligram of talc 10 Q. No, can't be only that. 11 on each o f two microscope slides, mix the 11 Look at the conclusion. "The 12 talc with a needle on one slide, drop in some 12 results from this study demonstrate the 13 liquid, and then start counting your fibers. 13 utility o f the centrifuge method not only for 14 A. Uh-huh. 14 obtaining a count o f particles, but also 15 Q . Have you ever used that method? 15 obtaining information on the shape of 16 A. No. 16 particles in a population." 17 Q. Why not? 17 Do you see that? 18 A. So you mix it on a slide with 18 A. Beneath that table? 19 what? 19 Q. It's at the very end, yes, sir. 20 Q. It says mix it with one --with 20 A. Yeah. Yeah. 21 a drop o f 1.574 refractive index liquid. 21 Q. And she's able to find things, 22 A. Right. 22 if you go to Table 1 -- 23 Q. And the other with 1.590 23 A. Table 1. 24 liquid. 24 Q. -- that might be nondetect in 25 A. Right. 25 some but wind up with needles and fibers Page 323 Page 325 1 Q. You've never done that? 1 she's able to find. 2 A. No. 2 A. Optically. 3 Then look at it with what? 3 Q. Yeah. 4 Q. I would assume you're going to 4 A. Yeah. 5 scan them with a polarizing microscope. 5 Q. But you're not familiar at all 6 A. Right. 6 with this approach, are you? 7 Q. Now, have you ever done that? 7 A. No. 8 A. No, we don't use optical 8 Q. Okay. 9 techniques to quantify asbestos. 9 A. Optical microscopes aren't used 10 Q. Yeah, it's not going to give 10 because they can't resolve finer fibers. 11 you much result, is it? 11 Q. Well, actually, though, the 12 A. No. 12 company talked about using some stuff. 13 Q. So there's got to be a better 13 You used a preconcentration 14 way than that. And she goes through here and 14 method or you talked about using it. I don't 15 she talks about another process, but you're 15 think you ever did, right? 16 just not familiar with it, are you? 16 A. No, we tested one, yeah. 17 A. Yeah, I don't know what the 17 Q. Yeah. 18 process is. 18 And Johnson & Johnson decided 19 Q. She says, "High grade talc 19 not to have you use that test - 20 products from five deposits, three in Vermont 20 A. Uh-huh. 21 {sic}, one in North Carolina and Alabama were 21 Q. - right? 22 examined using the centrifuge optical 22 A. Yep. 23 method." 23 Q. So Pooley rejected the 24 A. Uh-huh. 24 preconcentration method. Rejected 25 Q. You're not familiar with that, 25 preconcentration method. 69 (Pages 322 to 325) Golkow Technologies, Inc. 1.877.370.DEPS Frederick Pooley, Ph.D. Page 326 Page 328 1 Right? 1 asbestos in Vermont? 2 A. Yeah. 2 A. No, mineral. Tremolite 3 Q. And the reason you rejected it 3 mineral. 4 is it was too sensitive; it was going to show 4 Q. Look, it says, "Considering 5 asbestos, right? 5 method of preconcentrating the asbestos." 6 A. No. 6 A. Yeah. 7 Q. Sir, we've got the documents on 7 Q. I didn't make that word up. 8 this. 8 A. No. 9 A. Okay. Can you show me? 9 Q. Do you see it? 10 Q. Sure. 10 A. Yeah. 11 (PoOley Exhibit 39 marked for 11 Q. And then it says, "They find no 12 identification.) 12 asbestos by doing this with Italian talc. 13 QUESTIONS BY MR. LANIER: 13 They find .05 percent of a tremolite-type in 14 Q. Let me hand you a document that 14 Vermont." 15 we'll mark as Exhibit Number 39. It's a 15 A. Yeah. 16 Johnson & Johnson document. 16 Q. Tremolite, of course, is what 17 Do you have it in front of you? 17 the World Health Organization says is a 18 A. Yep. 18 principal type or variety of asbestos, right? 19 Q. Okay. Let me zoom out here. 19 A. They do in their document, 20 "Proposed specifications for analyzing" -- 20 yeah. 21 hold on. I can fix it. I'm just going to 21 Q. So J&J says, if you'll look on 22 take this down. 22 page 3 of 7, "How are we going to do this? 23 It says, "Proposed 23 How should we analyze our talc for asbestos?" 24 Specifications for Analyzing Talc for 24 There are these different ways 25 Asbestos." 25 of doing it. There's the USP method. Page 327 Page 329 1 A. Sure. 1 There's step-scanning, preconcentration, the 2 Q. Because this is where the 2 Pooley method; differential thermal; 3 company gets to make a difference. I mean, 3 microscopy. 4 how are you going to do it? What kind of 4 Do you see that? 5 scale are you going to use? 5 A. Yeah. 6 A. Uh-huh. 6 Q. So they used the USP method, 7 Q. You know, if you're going to 7 for example, on page 4 o f 7. We see using 8 measure paperclips, you got to have the right 8 this on Italian talc used in Shower to 9 scale, right? 9 Shower, there's a level of detectability of 10 A. Yes. 10 1 percent for tremolite and 5 percent 11 Q. All right. So we're looking 11 chrysotile. 12 here, again, at testing methods. Now, in 12 A. Uh-huh. 13 this regard, if you'll look on page 2, 13 Q. Now, that's not adequate 14 Johnson & Johnson sends this out, 14 because you're not going to see 1 percent of 15 May 1963 {sic}. 15 tremolite or 5 percent of chrysotile. That's 16 Do you see that? 16 not sensitive enough, right? 17 A. Yeah. 17 A. What, mineral? 18 Q. All right. May of 1963 {sic}. 18 Q. Yeah. 19 "England is considering method 19 A. Or fiber? 20 of preconcentrating the asbestos to be able 20 Q. Either one. 21 to analyze by X-ray. They find, Pooley, 21 A. Either one. 22 .05 percent of a tremolite-type in Vermont." 22 Q. It's not sensitive enough, is 23 Do you see that? 23 it? 24 A. Yes. 24 Fair? 25 Q. You found a tremolite-type of 25 A. Yeah. 70 (Pages 326 to 329) Golkow Technologies, Inc. 1.877.370.DEPS Frederick Pooley, Ph.D. Page 330 Page 332 1 Q. Now, but if you look at page 5, 1 (Pooley Exhibit 40 marked for 2 "Dr. Pooley has developed two techniques for 2 identification.) 3 preconcentrating chrysotile and tremolite in 3 QUESTIONS BY MR. LANIER: 4 talc followed by X-ray diffraction analysis 4 Q. Yeah. So they decide not to 5 that will detect up to .05 percent. When 5 do, but let me show you the reason why they 6 this method is applied to Italian and Vermont 6 didn't use your method. It's Exhibit 40. 7 talc, no chrysotile is detected. The second 7 Exhibit 40, Johnson & Johnson, 8 technique involves preconcentrating tremolite 8 1975, writing to Bob Rolle in New Brunswick, 9 in talc followed by X-ray. This technique 9 New Jersey. 10 has not been written up yet, but evidently 10 Do you see that? 11 when applied to Vermont talc, .05 percent of 11 A. Yeah. 12 tremolite-type is found. The limitation of 12 Q. Look what he says, "I've also 13 this method is it may be too sensitive." 13 enclosed our test method for the proposed 14 A. Uh-huh. 14 X-ray technique which was drawn up by Boots 15 Q. This is too sensitive. The 15 Limited" - 16 company is going to find it. 16 That's like a pharmaceutical 17 You don't want to find 17 store? 18 asbestos, do you? 18 A. Yeah. 19 MR. BICKS: Objection to the 19 Q. What we would call a drugstore, 20 form. 20 except it's like a major one there, right? 21 QUESTIONS BY MR. LANIER: 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. They never paid you to do that 22 Q. --"in conjunction with 23 method on their talc, did they? 23 Dr. Pooley. We deliberately have not 24 A. No. 24 included a concentration technique as we felt 25 Q. You didn't do the method that 25 it would not be in worldwide company Page 331 Page 333 1 they thought was too sensitive that might 1 interests to do this. But Fred tells me 2 actually find the presence of asbestos, did 2 you're now considering such a test in the 3 you? 3 USA." 4 MR. BICKS: Objection to the 4 Do you see that? 5 form. 5 Do you see that? 6 QUESTIONS BY MR. LANIER: 6 A. Yep. 7 Q. Right? 7 Q. In fact, in the US Johnson & 8 A. No, I didn't use that 8 Johnson continued to be concerned because 9 technique. I developed it, but I didn't use 9 they were afraid if the FDA used such a 10 it. 10 concentration method - or your 11 Q. Yeah. 11 preconcentration method might actually show 12 And the reason you didn't use 12 asbestos? 13 it is not only because it was too sensitive, 13 MR. BICKS: Objection to the 14 but it wasn't in the worldwide interests of '14 form. 15 Johnson & Johnson; it wasn't in the company's 15 QUESTIONS BY MR. LANIER: 16 interests to do it, right? 16 Q. Did you know about that? 17 A. I don't know. You better ask 17 A. No. 18 the company. 18 (Pooley Exhibit 41 marked for 19 Q. I mean, you understand if they 19 identification.) 20 find asbestos in the product, it's going to 20 QUESTIONS BY MR. LANIER: 21 affect the sales pretty tremendously, right? 21 Q. Show you a document we'll mark 22 A. Oh, sure. I quite agree. 22 as Exhibit Number 41. 23 Q. Huh? 23 Johnson & Johnson, 1976, Baby 24 A. Yes, if you find asbestos 24 Products, "Attached is a copy of a disturbing 25 fibers. Yeah. 25 proposal request which the FDA has currently 71 (Pages 330 to 333) Golkow Technologies, Inc. - 1.877.370.DEPS Frederick Pooley, Ph.D. Page 334 Page 336 1 made available to qualified bidders. 1 I want to talk to you about 2 Involves separating asbestos for identifying 2 integrity, and we've covered a lot of this, 3 and determining. I find this proposal more 3 but there's a couple of areas where we've not 4 disturbing than other proposals up to now 4 covered it so far. 5 because it aims at separating and isolating 5 So here's our stop at 6 the asbestos." 6 integrity. I want to talk about some data 7 Do you see? 7 and reports, the importance of consistency 8 A. Uh-huh. 8 being key and some warning areas. 9 Q. "As I've pointed out many 9 Okay? 10 times, there are many talcs on all markets 10 A. Yep. 11 which will be hard-pressed in supporting 11 Q. Consistency, so this is another 12 purity claims when ultra-sophisticated assay 12 one of those where I want to challenge you a 13 separation and isolation techniques are 13 little bit because I think that your 14 applied." 14 testimony is kind of perhaps gotten a little 15 Do you see where I'm reading? 15 clouded on an issue of tremolite, 16 A. Yeah. Yeah. 16 specifically with regards to what you've said 17 Q. "Chances are this FDA proposal 17 in this litigation, and I want to make sure 18 will open up new problem areas with asbestos 18 we're real clear. 19 and talc minerals." 19 Fair? 20 I mean, heavens, shouldn't the 20 A. Sure. 21 company be --do you see where I'm reading, 21 Q. So our subject matter here is 22 sir? 22 tremolite. Now, we've gone over and over 23 A. Yeah. Yeah. 23 what the World Health Organization says aboul 24 Q. Shouldn't the company be trying 24 it. 25 to figure out by the most sophisticated, 25 A. Uh-huh. Page 335 Page 337 1 sensitive method possible does our baby 1 Q. And I don't want to rehash 2 powder got asbestos in it that's going to 2 that. 3 affect the health of the babies and the 3 A. Uh-huh. 4 mommas and dads who are using it? 4 Q. Okay? 5 MR. BICKS: Objection to the 5 But you said something when you 6 form. 6 were hired by J&J yesterday, so this is 7 THE WITNESS: (Witness nods 7 testimony that's being paid for by Johnson & 8 head.) 8 Johnson. 9 QUESTIONS BY MR. LANIER: 9 You said yesterday that there 10 Q. The company shouldn't --you 10 was no dramatic biological response in Turkey 11 nodded yes, but I have to have a verbal 11 to tremolite exposure. 12 answer. 12 A. Yes. 13 A. Oh, sure. Yes. . 13 And you're talking about a 14 Q. I mean, the company shouldn't 14 mine? 15 say, "Nah, that's too sensitive. We don't -- 15 Q. Yeah, that's where tremolite 16 it's not in the company's worldwide interests 16 itself --dramatic - 17 to be doing this." The company ought to say, 17 A. It's a location where tremolite 18 "By golly, if it's in there, we want to 18 is mined, yeah. 19 know," shouldn't they? 19 Q. Right. 20 A. One would have thought, yeah. 20 And you said there's no 21 Q. One would have thought. Thank 21 dramatic biological response around tremolite 22 you. 22 mines, around the Turkey tremolite mine. 23 All right. Let's move down the 23 A. Yeah. 24 road. These last two are not so long so I'm 24 Q. And that's one of the reasons 25 actually getting near the end of the road. 25 that you don't think tremolite is that bad? 72 (Pages 334 to 337) Golkow Technologies, Inc. - 1.877.370.DEPS Frederick Pooley, Ph.D. Page 338 Page 340 1 A. Not always bad. 1 village with a population o fjust 425 2 Q. Yeah. But that's not the 2 people" - 3 truth. 3 A. Yeah. 4 A. Do you know another tremolite 4 Q. - "four cases o f mesothelioma 5 mine? 5 occurring in four years is unusual." 6 Q. No, sir, but I know the Turkey 6 You would agree that's 7 tremolite mine. 7 extremely unusual, wouldn't you? 8 A. In Halafli, yeah. 8 MR.BICKS: Objection. It's 9 Q. I've only got one copy of this, 9 beyond the scope. 10 so I'll pass it around, but I'm going to mark 10 THE WITNESS: What is unusual? 11 it as Exhibit Number 42. 11 What do you consider to be unusual? 12 (Pooley Exhibit 42 marked for 12 The mesothelioma? 13 identification.) 13 QUESTIONS BY MR. LANIER: 14 QUESTIONS BY MR. LANIER: 14 Q. Four out of 425 people. 15 Q. Exhibit Number 42 is an article 15 A. Well, there are locations in 16 in the British Journal of Industrial 16 Turkey where there are higher numbers of 17 Medicine. It's "an epidemiologic study in an 17 mesothelioma. 18 Anatolian village environmentally exposed to 18 Q. Uh-huh. 19 tremolite asbestos." 19 Four out o f 425, is there 20 A. Uh-huh. 20 anyplace in the world short of a - 1mean, 21 Q. This is the Turkish area, isn't 21 can you name any -- 22 it? 22 A. Yeah. In Turkey, yeah. 23 A. Well, it says it's in Turkey, 23 Q. With greater than that? 24 yes. 24 A. In a village called Karaoren in 25 Q. "Tremolite's the most occurring 25 Anatolia, they have 25 to 30 percent o f the Page 339 Page 341 1 of the amphophile asbestos minerals"? 1 deaths occurring, and that's a lot higher 2 A. That's right. 2 than 4 in 400. 3 Q. Oh, it looks like it's not just 3 Q. But look at this: "The 4 the World Health Organization that's calling 4 villagers are not occupationally exposed to 5 tremolite a principal variety of asbestos; 5 asbestos, but fine and coarse tremolite 6 it's also being called that by the British 6 fibers were found in the bulk sample o f the 7 Journal of Industrial Medicine article here, 7 white stucco and they inhale these fibers 8 right? 8 from the walls of the house." 9 A. Yeah. 9 A. Right. 10 Q. Now, it discusses the mine 10 Q. Do you see that? 11 there, and then it talks about the detection 11 A. Yes. 12 of four cases of malignant pleural 12 Q. And so for you to say that 13 mesothelioma in this village --and how do we 13 there's not been --what was it you said? -- 14 pronounce that? 14 no dramatic biological response around 15 A. No idea. 15 tremolite? 16 Q. I think it's Qaparkayi. 16 A. Turkey mine, it's the variation 17 Look at the discussion: 17 in location. I said there are --there's a 18 "Mesothelioma is rare. In the annual 18 village Karaoren where 25 to 30 percent of 19 incidence in populations with no exposure to 19 the deaths occurring in the village -- 20 asbestos is one per million." 20 Q. And it's from tremolite as 21 You agree with that, right? 21 well? 22 A. Oh - 22 A. No. 23 Q. "The risk may be increased by a 23 Q. Okay. But this is tremolite. 24 factor of a thousand or more among those 24 This is their only exposure. 25 heavily exposed to asbestos. In a small 25 A. You know, well, I'm just 73 (Pages 338 to 341) Golkow Technologies, Inc. - 1.877.370.DEPS Frederick Pooley, Ph.D. Page 342 Page 344 1 indicating that there are higher incidences 1 QUESTIONS BY MR. LANIER: 2 of mesothelioma in Turkey. 2 Q. Well, sir, the tremolite that 3 Q. From other asbestos exposures? 3 you have found in this case - you've 4 A. No, not asbestos. 4 testified before that it's the tremolite that 5 Q. The evidence comes from reports 5 causes meso, haven't you? 6 of increased rates of meso. It's talking now 6 MR. BICKS: Objection to the 7 about the amphophile form of asbestos is the 7 form. 8 most important in forming meso, especially 8 THE WITNESS: Ifit's in a 9 crocidolite and amosite, but it talks about 9 fibrous form. 10 how the asbestos mines were contaminated with 10 QUESTIONS BY MR. LANIER: 11 tremolite, which may be a better contaminant 11 Q. Sir, here's testimony you gave 12 than chrysotile for causing meso. 12 for the Kent cigarettes in California. It 13 Do you see that? 13 was a deposition you gave in 1993. 14 A. Yeah. You've lost me. I don't 14 A. All right. 15 know what you're talking about, Turkey or 15 Q. Frederick David Pooley. 16 USA. 16 Do you see that? 17 Q. Well, here's the bottom line in 17 A. Yes. 18 the conclusion: "We believe, however, 18 Q. And if we go into this 19 tremolite fibers are the real cause of the 19 deposition, on page 7, this was - I'll have 20 high incidence of mesothelioma." 20 to give you the deposition. It doesn't say 21 To say that tremolite doesn't 21 which case. It just gives the lawyers he 22 cause meso, it does, doesn't it? 22 testified for. 23 MR. BICKS: Objection to the 23 You're asked on page 7: "Do 24 form. Beyond the scope. 24 you have an opinion regarding whether 25 THE WITNESS: Yes, if the dust 25 tremolite as a contaminant of chrysotile Page 343 Page 345 1 is o f the right form. 1 would be a cause of mesothelioma?" . 2 QUESTIONS BY MR. LANIER: 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. So tremolite, you will admit, 3 Q. "I believe that tremolite could 4 can cause mesothelioma, fair? 4 be the cause. We have evidence to show that 5 A. Yes. If it's in the right 5 exposure to tremolite alone does cause 6 fibrous dust form, yes. If you inhale it 6 mesothelioma." 7 long enough. 7 Do you see that? 8 Q. Well, we'll get to that on the 8 A. Yes. 9 cancer part. 9 Q. Now, you don't say "fibers," 10 A. Okay. 10 "nonfibers," make it this, make it that. You 11 Q. You will admit that tremolite 11 just said tremolite alone, when you weren't 12 is biologically active, right? 12 being paid by J&J, no fuss, no muss, no this 13 A. Fibers or nonfibers? 13 or that or the other, tremolite alone causes 14 Q. Tremolite. 14 meso, right? 15 A. Well, tremolite in the 15 MR. BICKS: Objection to the 16 nonfibrous form, I don't know if anybody's 16 form. 17 measured its activity. 17 QUESTIONS BY MR. LANIER: 18 Q. Well, you will testify that 18 Q. Right? 19 exposure to tremolite alone can cause 19 A. Yeah. 20 mesothelioma, won't you? 20 Q. I mean, you're not hedging it. 21 MR. BICKS: Objection to the 21 You're not dancing it. You're not playing 22 form. Beyond the scope. 22 any word games. You're straight up saying 23 THE WITNESS: No, tremolite 23 exposure to tremolite alone can cause 24 fibers, the asbestiform. 24 mesothelioma, true? 25 25 A. If it's in a fibrous form, yes. 74 (Pages 342 to 345) Golkow Technologies, Inc. 1.877.370.DEPS Frederick Pooley, Ph.D. Page 346 Page 348 1 Q. Where did it say "if it's in a 1 Right? 2 fibrous form"? 2 A. Yes. 3 Where did you say that? 3 Q. And the reason that it was 4 A. Where did I say ~ 4 advantageous to who paid you in that case to 5 Q. Before you got paid by Johnson 5 say it is because you had people exposed to 6 & Johnson, where did you say that? 6 chrysotile asbestos and tremolite? 7 MR. BICKS: Objection to the 7 A. Uh-huh. 8 form. 8 Q. And you were saying --you were 9 THE WITNESS: Not in that 9 hired by the chrysotile people. You said 10 document, no. 10 it's not the chrysotile; it's the tremolite? 11 QUESTIONS BY MR. LANIER: 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. No. Not under oath in that 12 Q. Remember? 13 case, right? 13 A. Yes. 14 MR. BICKS: Objection to the 14 Q. Now, in this case you got 15 form. 15 people exposed to tremolite, and you're 16 QUESTIONS BY MR. LANIER: 16 saying it's not the tremolite? 17 Q. In fact, you testified in the 17 A. Tremolite was in a fibrous 18 Canadian mines that their mesothelioma was 18 asbestos, asbestiform. 19 caused by tremolite, didn't you? 19 Q. You don't identify the 20 A. Yes. 20 tremolite there as a fiber? 21 Q. And you say it over and over in 21 A. No, but it was. In fact, I 22 different depositions and testimony in 22 published an article about it. 23 Alabama, in the Washington case in the year 23 Q. Who is "they" in your sentence? 24 2000, you gave a deposition. 24 A. Sorry? 25 Do you remember that? 25 Q. Who is "they" in your sentence? Page 347 Page 349 1 A. No. 2 Q. Page 232, you said: "Do you 3 agree tremolite causes mesothelioma?" 4 MR. BICKS: Objection to the 5 form. 6 QUESTIONS BY MR. LANIER: 7 Q. Do you see it? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. Your answer: "Yes. There are 10 one or two cases where it's possible to 11 attribute mesothelioma to the inhalation of 12 tremolite." 13 A. Yes, fibers. 14 Q. Where does it say "fibers"? 15 A. I know it doesn't say fibers, 16 but what I'm saying it's got to be in a 17 fibrous form. 18 Q. That's what you're saying now? 19 A. No, that's what I've always 20 said. 21 Q. Where does it say "fibers"? 22 A. It doesn't say on those --in 23 those sentences. 24 Q. You swore to tell the truth in 25 these, the whole truth, right? 1 A. I'm sorry, I'm not - don't 2 follow you. 3 MR. BICKS: He said "I." He 4 said "I." 5 MR. LANIER: Oh, I'm sorry. 6 QUESTIONS BY MR. LANIER: 7 Q. If we go back to what you found 8 in the talc, it's not just tremolite that you 9 found, but you know that other asbestos 10 anthophyllite - you found anthophyllite, 11 didn't you? 12 A. Where? 13 Q. In talc. 14 A. I may have in the past, yes. 15 Q. Yeah. 16 And you found it in finished 17 products or someone else did in 1976? 18 A. Yeah. 19 Q. Right? 20 You wrote it up as being 21 present in talc in 1992, anthophyllite. 22 See it? 23 See it? 24 A. Yeah. I can see where you've 25 written it, yes. 75 (Pages 346 to 349) Golkow Technologies, Inc. 1.877.370.DEPS Frederick Pooley, Ph.D. Page 350 Page 352 1 Q. Well, you've testified in other 1 break? 2 cases anthophyllite causes meso, right? 2 THE WITNESS: No. No, don't 3 A. I don't think so. 3 worry. 4 Q. Your deposition in the Greear 4 QUESTIONS BY MR. LANIER: 5 versus Union Carbide case, 1989, page 27: 5 Q. I asked you yesterday about 6 "Are you of the opinion that anthophyllite is 6 the --and this is part of integrity. 7 capable of causing meso?" 7 I asked you yesterday about 8 What did you say? 8 this and does - do these things cause 9 A. "Yes." 9 cancer, et cetera, and what is asbestos and 10 Q. All right. So I just asked 10 what isn't. And even today you said, well -- 11 you, you've testified before that 11 well, what was it you said yesterday? 12 anthophyllite can cause meso. You said: "I 12 Yesterday you said to cause 13 don't think so." 13 cancer you need to have breathed enough of 14 Yes, you have, haven't you? 14 it; that there's a safe level? 15 A. Again, it's in the fibrous 15 A. Yeah. 16 form. 16 Q. Remember that? 17 Q. No, sir, that's not what it 17 MR. BICKS: Again, object to 18 said. 18 the form as beyond the scope. 19 A. I know it doesn't say it, but 19 QUESTIONS BY MR. LANIER: 20 it should say it. 20 Q. Well, sir, that's what you've 21 Q. Well, even still the 21 been testifying about all day is whether or 22 anthophyllite that you found and others have 22 not there's a safe amount or whether it's 23 found in talc is in a fibrous form. We saw 23 safe to have the asbestos in the product, 24 that earlier in the reports. 24 right? 25 Do I need to pull them back 25 MR. BICKS: Objection to the Page 351 Page 353 1 out? 1 form. 2 MR. BICKS: Objection to the 2 THE WITNESS: No. 3 form. 3 QUESTIONS BY MR. LANIER: 4 QUESTIONS BY MR. LANIER: 4 Q. What? 5 Q. So, sir, the bottom line is, is 5 A. I've been testifying on the 6 these asbestos varieties that the World 6 presence or not of asbestiform amphophile or 7 Health Organization all cause mesothelioma 7 other asbestos. 8 cancer, ovarian cancer, these types of 8 Q. Because it's not just IARC, 9 things, you've even said in other cases when 9 it's not just the World Health Organization 10 you weren't paid by J&J they cause cancer, 10 that says all of these forms of minerals are 11 haven't you? 11 asbestos and they all cause cancer. 12 MR. BICKS: Objection to the 12 You get that with there being 13 form. 13 no safe level from a number of different 14 THE WITNESS: When they were - 14 organizations, don't you? 15 when they were in the asbestiform, 15 MR. BICKS: Objection to the 16 yes. 16 form. 17 QUESTIONS BY MR. LANIER: 17 THE WITNESS: I have no idea. 18 Q. No, sir. You said it period. 18 QUESTIONS BY MR. LANIER: 19 Asbestos, cancer. 19 Q. You didn't know that's what the 20 Now, in this regard -- 20 US government says, NIOSH, that there's no 21 MR. BICKS: Can I just ask how 21 safe level? 22 much more you have? Because -- 22 A. No, I didn't know that. 23 MR. LANIER: I probably got 23 Q. You didn't know that's what the 24 another 45 minutes. 24 Surgeon General says? 25 MR. BICKS: You want to take a 25 A. Nope. 76 (Pages 350 to 353) Golkow Technologies, Inc. 1.877.370.DEPS Frederick Pooley, Ph.D. Page 354 Page 356 1 Q. You didn't know that's what the 1 actinolite, amosite, anthophyllite, 2 Joint Policy Committee, Society of 2 crocidolite and tremolite." 3 Epidemiology says? 3 A. Yes. 4 A. No. 4 Q. Do you see that? 5 Q. You didn't know that's what 5 A. Yep. 6 OSHA says? 6 Q. It says that all of the 7 A. No. 7 tremolite is fibrous, doesn't it? 8 Q. You didn't know that's what NTP 8 MR. BICKS: Objection to the 9 says? 9 form. 10 MR. BICKS: Objection to the 10 THE WITNESS: All of the 11 form as outside of the scope. 11 tremolite is fibrous? 12 QUESTIONS BY MR. LANIER: 12 QUESTIONS BY MR. LANIER: 13 Q. You didn't know that? 13 Q. Yes, sir. It's asbestos. 14 A. No. 14 MR. BICKS: Objection to the 15 Q. In fact, look at the NTP. They 15 form. 16 specifically say - and this is the national 16 THE WITNESS: Five fibrous 17 report on carcinogens talking about asbestos. 17 amphophile minerals. I think what 18 I'll pass you over some of these. This 18 it's really saying is that if 19 should be a couple of sets. I'll mark mine. 19 tremolite is in a fibrous form. 20 You-all can figure that out, but I'll mark 20 QUESTIONS BY MR. LANIER: 21 this as Exhibit Number 43. 21 Q. Sir, what do you mean when you 22 (Pooley Exhibit 43 marked for 22 say "fibrous form" and give me the reference 23 identification.) 23 for it? 24 QUESTIONS BY MR. LANIER: 24 You keep saying "fibrous form." 25 O. So this is the National 25 What is a fibrous - what do you mean by Page 355 Page 357 1 Institute of Health in the United States, 1 "fibrous form"? 2 Report on Carcinogens, Asbestos. 2 A. Well, if you break up the 3 Do you see where I am? 3 mineral, you create a population o f fibers. 4 You got a copy of it, sir? 4 Q. All right. Wait, fibrous form, 5 A. Is this the -- 5 by your definition, means if you break it 6 Q. It's the report on carcinogens 6 up- 7 from the US government's National Institute 7 A. Yeah. 8 of Health. This is the asbestos. 8 Q. - you get fibers? 9 "Asbestos and all commercial 9 A. That's right, yeah. 10 forms of asbestos are known to be human 10 Q. And you're saying that there's 11 carcinogens." 11 tremolite when you break it up, it doesn't 12 Do you see that? 12 become fibers? 13 A. Oh, sorry, I've got several 13 A. Yes. 14 documents here. Yeah. 14 Q. What does it become? 15 Q. Do you see where it says 15 A. Just becomes irregularly shaped 16 asbestos, it's known to be human carcinogens, 16 particles. 17 cancer-causers? 17 Q. Define fiber. 18 A. Oh. Yes. Yes. I got it now, 18 A. Define fiber? 19 yeah. 19 Q. Yeah. What do you mean when 20 Q. And if you look under 20 you say "if you break it up, you get fibers"? 21 properties, look what it says: "Asbestos is 21 A. Well, it produces particles 22 the generic name for a group of six naturally 22 with a length to width ratio which is greater 23 occurring fibrous silicate minerals including 23 than 3 to 1. 24 the fibrous serpentine mineral chrysotile and 24 Q. You're saying that it only 25 the five fibrous amphophile minerals 25 causes cancer if the length, 1-e-n-g-t-h, to 77 (Pages 354 to 357) Golkow Technologies, Inc. 1.877.370.DEPS Frederick Pooley, Ph.D. Page 358 Page 360 1 width is greater - 1 2 A. Greater than 3 to 1. 2 3 Q. -- than 3 to 1? 3 4 A. Yeah. 4 5 Q. So if it's a 2.9 inches long -- 5 6 or microns long -- 6 7 A. Yeah. 7 8 Q. - and 1 micron wide -- 8 9 A. Yeah. 9 10 Q. - it does not cause meso, 10 11 doesn't cause cancer, according to Fred 11 12 Pooley? 12 13 A. That's right. 13 14 Q. But if it is 3 microns long and 14 15 1 micron wide, it does cause cancer? 15 16 A. It has a greater propensity to 16 17 cause cancer. The longer o f fiber, the 17 18 greater the propensity. 18 19 Q. Okay. Well, no, you just said 19 20 that it doesn't cause cancer at all at 2.9. 20 21 A. I know, because it's not 21 22 classified as a fiber there. 22 23 Q. By you? 23 24 A. Yeah. No, I think it's -- 24 25 that's part of the definition o f - 25 Page 359 1 Q. From who? Show me where that 1 2 is by the National Institute of Health in 2 3 here. 3 4 MR. BICKS: Objection to the 4 5 form. 5 6 QUESTIONS BY MR. LANIER: 6 7 Q. Show me where that is, sir. 7 8 A. I have no idea. 8 9 Q. Show me where that is from the 9 10 World Health Organization. 10 11 A. Well, they don't bother with 11 12 dimensions at the World Health Organization. 12 13 Q. Yeah. 13 14 Show me where that is - you're 14 15 familiar with IARC? 15 16 A. Yes, very much so. 16 17 Q. Why don't you tell the jury who 17 18 IARC is? 18 19 A. The International Agency for 19 20 Research on Cancer. 20 21 Q. All right. The International 21 22 Agency for the Research on Cancer, where do 22 23 they come up with this idea? 23 24 Where do they say any of this 24 25 stuff you're talking about? 25 A. What, definition o f a fiber? Q. Yeah. That it won't cause cancer if it's 2.9 microns but it will if it's 3? A. 3 to 1 actual ratio. Q. Yeah, where does th a t - b y the International Agency for the Research of Cancer, IARC, where do they say it? A. That's just a definition of the fiber. Q. No, where do they say it won't cause cancer? Look, where do they give you this conclusion? I mean, that's just made up by you and the asbestos companies. MR. BICKS: Objection to the form. THE WITNESS: Well, okay. QUESTIONS BY MR. LANIER: Q. I mean, tell me anybody, other than someone testifying for an asbestos company, that says that. MR. BICKS: Objection to the form. Page 361 QUESTIONS BY MR. LANIER: Q. Can you think of anybody? A. HIRA, HOIRA, American Hygiene --the rules for counting asbestos. Q. I'll even go to the Collegium Ramazzini. A. Oh, yeah. Q. We'll go to Italy, place of the mines you were testifying about. I'll mark theirs as exhibit number next. Here, here's a complete set for you and the lawyers. 44, Exhibit 44. (Pooley Exhibit 44 marked for identification.) QUESTIONS BY MR. LANIER: Q. Even the Collegium Ramazzini in their official position on the global health dimensions of asbestos, the Collegium has taken this position: "Based on well-validated scientific evidence showing all types of asbestos, including chrysotile, the most widely used, cause cancers such as mesothelioma and lung cancer, and there's no safe level of exposure." Do you see that? 78 (Pages 358 to 361) Golkow Technologies, Inc. 1.877.370.DEPS Frederick Pooley, Ph.D. Page 362 Page 364 1 A. Yeah. 1 have to be at a 3 to 1 ratio, does it? 2 Q. It doesn't say it's got to be a 2 A. No. 3 3 to 1 ratio, does it? 3 MR. BICKS: Objection to the 4 A. They're entitled to say what 4 form. 5 they like. 5 QUESTIONS BY MR. LANIER: 6 Q. The Center for Disease Control 6 Q. Gives you studies in people 7 in the United States, the CDC, is associated 7 that show mesothelioma can be associated from 8 with the EPA and everybody else. Here's a 8 this. Tells you ovarian cancer can be 9 bunch o f those. We'll mark them as Exhibit 9 associated with this. 10 Number 45. 10 Do you see that? 11 (Pooley Exhibit 45 marked for 11 MR. BICKS: Objection to the 12 identification.) 12 form. 13 QUESTIONS BY MR. LANIER: 13 QUESTIONS BY MR. LANIER: 14 Q. We've got OSHA, the EPA, the 14 Q. Do you see it, sir? 15 National Institutes o f Health, CDC. 15 A. Uh-huh. 16 "There is no safe level of 16 Q. You got to answer out loud. 17 asbestos exposure." It doesn't say it's got 17 A. Yes. 18 to be a 3 to 1 ratio, does it? 18 MR. LANIER: I mean, 19 MR. BICKS: Objection to the 19 nobody's --this is - all right. 20 form. 20 We'll pick back up here. I think your 21 So we should probably take a 21 counsel wants a break. 22 couple-minute break. 22 VIDEOGRAPHER: All right. The 23 MR. LANIER: Well, not while 23 time is 3:24 p.m. We're going off the 24 the question is pending. 24 record. 25 MR. BICKS: All right. Well, 25 (Off the record at 3:24 p.m.) Page 363 Page 365 1 we've been going over two hours. 1 VIDEOGRAPHER: Okay. We're 2 QUESTIONS BY MR. LANIER: 2 back on the record. The time is 3 Q. You see it, sir? 3 3:31 p.m. 4 It doesn't say it's got to be a 4 QUESTIONS BY MR. LANIER: 5 3 to 1 ratio, does it? 5 Q. Okay. We were stopping at 6 I'm sorry? 6 integrity on the road and we had talked about 7 A. No. 7 the importance of consistency. 8 Q. Australian government doesn't 8 This, again, goes back to your 9 say it's got to be a 3 to 1 ratio. The 9 opinion shouldn't change just because someone 10 American Cancer Society doesn't say it, do 10 else is paying you, right? 11 they? 11 A. Uh-huh. 12 A. No. 12 Q. Correct? 13 Q. I mean, the American Cancer 13 A. Yes. 14 Society, there's a set of those. Mark it as 14 Q. I don't mean to be impertinent 15 Exhibit 46. 15 there, but uh-huhs and huh-uhs read a lot 16 (Pooley Exhibit 46 marked for 16 alike so we always have to get in a yes or 17 identification.) 17 no. 18 QUESTIONS BY MR. LANIER: 18 Now, I want to talk to you then 19 Q. The American Cancer Society 19 about also on this integrity stop, data and 20 says, "Asbestos, several types of amphophile 20 reports, and you looked at a lot about the 21 fibers, including amosite, crocidolite, 21 Val Chisone mine, that Italian mine, where 22 tremolite, actinolite, anthophyllite." 22 you spent, oh, I thought it sounded like 23 Do you see that? 23 years there. 24 A. Yes. 24 You didn't live in Italy for 25 Q. Doesn't say that these fibers 25 years, did you? 79 (Pages 362 to 365) Golkow Technologies, Inc. 1.877.370.DEPS Frederick Pooley, Ph.D. Page 366 Page 368 1 A. No. 2 Q. Okay. So you were in the Val 3 Chisone mine. 4 How many times did you go over 5 there? 6 A. I think I went twice to the 7 mine. 8 Q. Oh, okay. So this -- this 9 wasn't for years you were working on it? 10 A. No. Only on the samples. 11 . Q. Only on the samples? 12 A. Yeah. 13 Q. Well, who did more work on the 14 Val Chisone mine than you did? 15 A. I have no idea. 16 Q. How about the people who run 17 the Val Chisone mine? 18 A. I've actually never seen what 19 work they actually did. 20 Q. Whoa. Okay. Timeout. This is 21 important. 22 You've never seen the work done 23 by Val Chisone? 24 A. No. 25 O. So Johnson & Johnson didn't 1 So just so that we're real 2 clear, even though you may not have seen it, 3 you did see - found tremolite? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. It's just your opinion that it 6 wasn't o f the right size to where you were 7 going to say that it was asbestos? 8 A. It wasn't asbestiform, no. 9 Q. It wasn't the right size for 10 you? 11 A. It wasn't asbestiform. 12 Q. Asbestiform? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. Yeah, there's just a difference 15 in those words. I just want to make it real 16 clear. You're not saying it wasn't asbestos. 17 You're saying that -- you've got a - there's 18 the word "asbestos," which is referring to 19 the mineral, and the asbestos mineral 20 includes tremolite, right? 21 A. Yeah. 22 Q. And then you've got another 23 word you used called "asbestiform." 24 A. Yes. 25 0- And that's where you wanted to Page 367 Page 369 1 give you that? 1 have your size? 2 A. No. 2 A. And appearance, yeah. 3 Q. See, because I was concerned 3 Q. Yeah. 4 about it when I heard you say that Johnson & 4 A. Fibers. 5 Johnson --based on your knowledge, if 5 Q. Fibers? 6 Johnson & Johnson, if an issue had been 6 A. Yeah. 7 identified, then they'd take action. 7 Q. 3 to 1? 8 A. Yeah. 8 A. Yeah. 9 Q. And your idea that Johnson & 9 Q. Ratio? 10 Johnson was a reasonable company who never 10 A. Yeah, particles below that size 11 pressured you to come up with answers in any 11 ratio wouldn't be - 12 of your own tests. 12 Q. Asbestiform by your 13 A. Yeah. 13 definition -- 14 Q. And that Johnson & Johnson was, 14 A. Yeah. 15 you know, reasonable in their behavior and 15 Q. - though, they're still 16 what they did and they put safety first, but 16 asbestos? 17 they never showed you the work by the mine 17 MR. BICKS: Objection to the 18 company? 18 form. 19 A. No. 19 QUESTIONS BY MR. LANIER: 20 Q. Okay. As a sidenote, you did 20 Q. In terms o f the mineral, the 21 find tremolite in Val Chisone, didn't you? 21 mineral structure hasn't changed, right? 22 A. Yeah, I think --yeah, excuse 22 A. Yeah. 23 me, one of the mineral samples, yeah, we 23 Q. Right? 24 took. 24 A. Nope. 25 Q. Yeah. 25 Q. I'm not right? 80 (Pages 366 to 369) Golkow Technologies, Inc. 1.877.370.DEPS Frederick Pooley, Ph.D. Page 370 Page 372 1 A. No, I said -- 1 A. Where is that? 2 Q. Am I correct, the mineral 2 Q. It's on the very title. That's 3 hadn't changed? 3 the title of it. So this should be 47? 4 A. Tremolite mineral is tremolite 4 This is Exhibit 47, sir. I'm 5 mineral. 5 going to pass you this sticker and let you 6 Q. Thank you. 6 fix -- let me -- thank you. 7 A. And then there's tremolite 7 Let me fix this as Exhibit 8 asbestos, which is also tremolite mineral, 8 Number 47 and that means --I'm sorry, I'm 9 but it's o f --it produces fibers of 9 out of these, again, Carrie. 10 particular form. 10 So here we've got Exhibit 11 Q. Well, that's something you will 11 Number 47, and Exhibit Number 47 talks about 12 at least agree is open to academic debate, 12 the impurities present in their talc mine 13 right? That's an argument made by the 13 there at Val Chisone. 14 asbestos companies? 14 Do you see? 15 MR. BICKS: Objection to the 15 A. Yes, impurities present, yes, 16 form. 16 in talc. 17 QUESTIONS BY MR. LANIER: 17 Q. And it's published by the 18 Q. Right? 18 Society - Societ Talco e Grafite Val 19 A. Yeah. 19 Chisone? 20 Q. Right? 20 A. Yeah, that's the company. 21 A. I have no idea. 21 Q. Uh-huh. That owns the mine? 22 Q. So here's the deal: Did the 22 A. Yeah. 23 company ever give you the booklet that the 23 Q. So here's a Practical Guide to 24 Val Chisone mine wrote about their 24 the Impurities in the Talc. 25 contaminants? 25 You see? Page 371 Page 373 1 A. No, I haven't seen that. 1 And you can just tell by 2 (Pooley Exhibit 47 marked for 2 looking at the index they've got chrysotile. 3 identification.) 3 That's asbestos, isn't it? 4 QUESTIONS BY MR. LANIER: 4 A. Yeah. 5 Q. I'll mark it as Exhibit 5 Q. They've got amphophile fibers. 6 Number 44. And in all of those documents ~ 6 Actinote, that's asbestos, isn't it? 7 if you'll pass two of them down, please. 7 A. I have no idea. What are you 8 In all of those documents that 8 looking at? 9 you went over with Mr. Bicks, the 11 hours of 9 Q. I'm looking at the index on 10 documents that they paid you $300 an hour to 10 page 3 o f 31. I've got it up here for you if 11 look at, all of the rest of that, no one ever 11 that helps. 12 showed you this document put out by the Val 12 It says, "Summary." 13 Chisone mine that I've marked as Exhibit 13 A. Oh, yeah. Yes. Yes. I'm with 14 Number 44? 14 you now. 15 A. Uh-huh. 15 Q. And it's got fibers and small 16 Q. Is that correct? 16 scales from tremolite. 17 A. Yeah. I think it is, yeah. 17 Do you see that? 18 Q. So this is your first time to 18 A. Summary. Oh, yes, all right. 19 see what the people who run the mine, not 19 I'm with you. 20 people who visited twice in their life? 20 Q. Now, your testing was not 21 A. Yeah. 21 sensitive enough to find the tremolite 22 Q. But the people who run the mine 22 fibers, but the mine company knew they had 23 have to say about the impurities in their 23 them, didn't it? 24 talc, the harmful elements. 24 MR. BICKS: Objection to the 25 Do you see that? 25 form. 81 (Pages 370 to 373) Golkow Technologies, Ine. 1.877.370.DEPS Frederick Pooley, Ph.D. Page 374 Page 376 1 MR. BECKER: Object to the 1 talcs have a hard silicate content reaching 2 form. 2 also the 10 percent tremolites and 3 QUESTIONS BY MR. LANIER: 3 chrysotiles. 4 Q. You see? 4 MR. BICKS: Objection to the 5 A. Yeah. 5 form. 6 Q. And if you go to page 6, they 6 QUESTIONS BY MR. LANIER: 7 give some definitions, and the definition of 7 Q. I'm not sure that's their talc, 8 tremolite is given. 8 that may be other talcs outside of theirs, 9 A. Uh-huh. 9 but they're aware of this concern, aren't 10 Q. "Tremolite is the name given to 10 they? 11 the monoclinic amphophile resulting from," 11 MR. BICKS: Objection. 12 and then it gives the chemical formula? 12 MR. BECKER: Object to the 13 A. Yep. 13 form. 14 Q. "It's formed in very long, 14 QUESTIONS BY MR. LANIER: 15 bacillary crystals, mostly aggregated or 15 Q. Do you see that, sir? 16 fasciculated, that are white in color." 16 A. Yeah, I can see it. Yeah. 17 A. Yeah. 17 Q. Now, Mr. Bicks asked you how 18 Q. And then it gives the 18 would Johnson & Johnson react if they found 19 actinolite definition next. 19 this out. We know one thing, they won't tell 20 Do you see that? 20 you about it. 21 A. Yes. 21 They didn't tell you about this 22 Q. And it's --so we've got those, 22 booklet, did they? 23 and then if you'll go to page 27 o f 31 -- no, 23 A. No. 24 page 27 o f the booklet, which is page 22 of 24 MR. BICKS: Objection to the 25 31. "Talc impurities, very hard silicates as 25 form. Page 375 Page 377 1 chrysotiles and tremolites of amphibolitic 1 THE WITNESS: I've never seen 2 derivation namely with strict asbestos 2 this before. 3 content." 3 QUESTIONS BY MR. LANIER: 4 Do you see that? 4 Q. In fact, the booklet was 5 A. Uh-huh. 5 written in Italian. 6 Q. You and Mr. Bicks spent like 6 Did you know that? 7 30 minutes going through all of your Val 7 A. No. 8 Chisone experience that Mr. Bicks 8 Q. And then it was being 9 characterized as two years. It's really two 9 translated into English and this English 10 visits with a handful of samples. 10 translation, Johnson & Johnson found out 11 A. Uh-huh. 11 about it. 12 Q. But the people who made the . 12 Did you know that? 13 mine, who run the mine, they put out their 13 A. No. 14 own report saying that it had tremolites and 14 MR. BICKS: Objection to the 15 chrysotiles. 15 form. 16 MR. BECKER: Object to form. 16 QUESTIONS BY MR. LANIER: 17 QUESTIONS BY MR. LANIER: 17 Q. And Mr. Bicks said: "Well, 18 Q. Do you see that? 18 what do you think Johnson & Johnson would dc 19 MR. BICKS: Yeah, object to 19 if they found out maybe they had --there was 20 form. 20 asbestos in their talc," and I suggested to 21 THE WITNESS: Yeah, they made a 21 you that we could look and see from 22 listing here of talc impurities. 22 experience what they would do. 23 QUESTIONS BY MR. LANIER: 23 Remember our conversation about 24 Q. And, in fact, if you go to the 24 that? 25 next page as per the analysis, many of their 25 A. Sure. 82 (Pages 374 to 377) Golkow Technologies, Inc. 1.877.370.DEPS Frederick Pooley, Ph.D. Page 378 Page 380 1 (Pooley Exhibit 48 marked for 1 to you, did they? 2 identification.) 2 A. No. 3 QUESTIONS BY MR. LANIER: 3 Q. I mean, you understand the 4 Q. Let me hand you document 4 booklet raises doubts about the purity of the 5 number 48 and I'll show you what they did 5 talc? 6 when they realized this was getting out 6 MR. BECKER: Object to form. 7 there. 7 QUESTIONS BY MR. LANIER: 8 Here's Exhibit 48,1974. "This 8 Q. Right? 9 will confirm yesterday's discussion between a 9 A. Yes. 10 bunch of folks regarding the principal 10 Q. Did you know that the company 11 objective o f your trip to Italy in two weeks' 11 successfully stopped the booklets from 12 time." 12 getting distributed in English? 13 A. Uh-huh. 13 MR. BICKS: Objection to the 14 Q. "It was agreed you would 14 form. 15 provide technical support to Don Ferry in his 15 THE WITNESS: No idea, no. 16 meetings and discussions with the mine 16 (Pooley Exhibit 49 marked for 17 principals regarding their recent 17 identification.) 18 publication, 'Practical Guide to the 18 QUESTIONS BY MR. LANIER: 19 Recognition of Impurities in Talc."' 19 Q. Yeah. 20 Do you see that? 20 I mean, if you want to know 21 A. Yes. 21 what the company does or the jury wants to 22 Q. "In the light o f the current 22 know what the company does when they get this 23 talc antagonist climate, you and Don have 23 reaction, maybe we could look at Exhibit 24 undertaken to explain the potential impact 24 Number 49, fair? 25 and harm which may result from their booklet 25 If you look at the paper trail? Page 379 Page 381 1 calling attention to the impurities in talc." 1 A. Yep. 2 Do you see that? 2 Q. All right. Here's Exhibit 3 A. Yes. 3 Number 49. And this tells us how the company 4 Q. "It was Mr. Ferry's intent to 4 reacts when they get notice like this. 5 solicit removal of these booklets from 5 You got it in front of you? 6 distribution." 6 A. Yeah. 7 Do you see where I'm reading? 7 Q. Subject, the publication we're 8 A. (Witness nods head.) 8 talking about on Val Chisone? 9 Q. Yes? 9 A. Right. 10 A. Yes. 10 Q. See it? 11 Q. So the company finds out that 11 "Dear Mr. Lee, I visited the 12 this booklet in Italian has now been put into 12 management, the mines, the mills of our 13 English and they're sending people over to 13 Italian talc source with Mr. Ferry, the US 14 try to stop the booklets from being 14 agent. Our objective was to forestall the 15 distributed because it would have impact and 15 upsetting impact which distribution of a 16 harm. 16 recent publication will have on the world 17 Do you see that? 17 talc market. Dr. Stefano of Monte Carlo 18 MR. BICKS: Objection to the 18 accompanied us as interpreter and joint 19 form. 19 friend." 20 THE WITNESS: I have no idea. 20 Do you see that? 21 QUESTIONS BY MR. LANIER: 21 A. Yeah. 22 Q. Well, I mean, it's what it says 22 Q. "The business threat with the 23 right here. 23 Italian publication" -- 24 A. Okay. Ifyousayso. 24 And then it gives the title. 25 Q. And they never gave the booklet 25 It's the one we're looking at, right? 83 (Pages 378 to 381) Golkow Technologies, Inc. 1.877.370.DEPS Frederick Pooley, Ph.D. Page 382 Page 384 1 A. Uh-huh. 1 form. 2 Q. -- "is that it can raise 2 MR. BECKER: Object to the 3 doubts on the validity of the documentation 3 form. 4 of purity and safety of talc, which we've 4 QUESTIONS BY MR. LANIER: 5 established both here with the FDA and in 5 Q. Did you know that? 6 England." 6 I mean, sir, if we're talking 7 Are you reading with me? 7 about integrity and the Val Chisone mine, you 8 A. Yes. 8 don't go and edit out and stop publication of 9 Q. "The Italian publication raises 9 scientific material, true? 10 those doubts because it singles out Italian 10 MR. BICKS: Objection to the 11 SVC talc as the purest and best in the 11 form. No foundation. 12 world." 12 MR. BECKER: Object to the 13 Do you see that? 13 form. 14 A. Yes. 14 THE WITNESS: I would have 15 Q. "But even still, it's got 15 thought not. 16 traces o f the chrysotile asbestos." 16 QUESTIONS BY MR. LANIER: 17 Do you see that? 17 Q. Yeah. 18 MR. BICKS: Objection to the 18 So with all of that talk about 19 form. 19 Val Chisone, you will agree for integrity 20 MR. BECKER: Object to the 20 sake you don't stop publication of science; 21 form. 21 whether you agree with the view or not, let 22 THE WITNESS: I see, yes. 22 every view be out there, fair? 23 QUESTIONS BY MR. LANIER: 23 A. Sure. Yeah. Yeah. 24 Q. It says, "It states SVC talc 24 Q. By the way, why did you enter 25 has only traces of chrysotile asbestos." 25 into an agreement where you wouldn't publish Page 383 Page 385 1 It's got them, though, right? 1 any report of anything you did on Johnson & 2 A. Yeah. 2 Johnson's material without their okay? 3 Q. "It calls undue attention to a 3 A. Yeah. Well, I didn't enter 4 host of trace metals in talcs and brands them 4 into an agreement. The university might 5 as harmful elements." 5 have. 6 A. Yes. 6 Q. I mean, you were asked by 7 Q. "Our deliberations with the 7 Mr. Bicks if the company tried to affect what 8 Italian staff were concluded successfully. 8 you wanted to write or say or publish, you 9 We achieved our objective with these three 9 would give them, I think you said, the two 10 main points of agreement: Italian management 10 fingers? 11 will stop distribution of all English 11 A. Yeah. 12 versions of the publication effective last 12 (Pooley Exhibit 50 marked for 13 Wednesday." 13 identification.) 14 A. Yeah. 14 QUESTIONS BY MR. LANIER: 15 Q. Again, they didn't give it to 15 Q. Here's Exhibit Number 50. 16 you, did they? 16 That's your contract, and I don't see the two 17 A. No. 17 fingers in here. 18 Q. "Mr. Ferry and I agreed to 18 Here's what you were operating 19 undertake the responsibility of rewriting the 19 under. 20 publication for English-speaking countries." 20 A. Yeah. 21 Do you see that? 21 Q. This is your agreement you were 22 A. Yeah. 22 operating under, right? 23 Q. Take out the asbestos 23 A. I don't know. I didn't produce 24 impurities? 24 this document. 25 MR. BICKS: Objection to the 25 Q. It's a Johnson & Johnson one 84 (Pages 382 to 385) Golkow Technologies, Inc. - 1.877.370.DEPS Frederick Pooley, Ph.D. Page 386 Page 388 1 that's considered confidential and we're not 1 A. But they didn't. 2 allowed to take it out publicly. They want 2 Q. They didn't have to? 3 to keep this one private and protected. 3 A. No - 4 A. Yeah. 4 Q. You already wrote everything 5 MR. BICKS: Objection to the 5 they wanted? 6 form. 6 MR. BICKS: Objection to the 7 QUESTIONS BY MR. LANIER: 7 form. 8 Q. You see? Unless they're 8 THE WITNESS: The information 9 willing to waive that confidentiality 9 was published. 10 requirement, but I think that they want to 10 QUESTIONS BY MR. LANIER: 11 keep this confidential. 11 Q. You're not going to deliver any 12 And they said --we got to quit 12 lectures or make any verbal communications on 13 laughing for a minute. Get back serious 13 the subject of the program, which is the 14 again. 14 asbestos and the talc, without written 15 Sir, here's their offer to 15 approval of the company. 16 provide financial assistance for a research 16 Do you see that? 17 assistantship program? 17 A. Uh-huh. 18 A. Yes. 18 Q. So if we really want to know - 19 Q. "The details of the program are 19 by the way, in terms of integrity, wouldn't 20 going to be settled by Dr. Pooley and Johnson 20 you think it's important not only that you 21 & Johnson." 21 don't stop the publication of science, but a 22 A. Yeah. 22 company should not be dictating what an 23 Q. Do you see that? 23 independent scientist writes? 24 "This is something that will be 24 MR. BICKS: Objection to the 25 under the general direction and project 25 form. Page 387 Page 389 1 leadership of Dr. Pooley." 1 QUESTIONS BY MR. LANIER: 2 A. Yeah. 2 Q. Would you agree with that? 3 Q. Something where the company is 3 A. Oh, yeah. If you take on --in 4 going to pay the university money? 4 the interest if you take on work financed by 5 A. Yeah. 5 a company, then the - the data, et cetera, 6 Q. "All papers, publications and 6 is the --resides with the research worker. 7 reports written by Dr. Pooley or the student 7 Q. Well, not just the data? 8 or anyone else connected with the program 8 A. Yeah. 9 will be regarded as confidential and will not 9 Q. Any lecture, any article you 10 be published in any form without prior 10 write? 11 written consent of the company." 11 A. Yeah. Yeah. 12 A. Yeah. 12 Q. They get to insert anything 13 Q. "The company is empowered to 13 they want? 14 withhold such permission or to require the 14 A. If they --well, they can 15 university to incorporate any reasonable 15 suggest. 16 amendments which the company might suggest.' 16 Q. No, they can require I think 17 Do you see that? 17 was -- 18 A. Yeah. 18 A. Okay. 19 Q. They got to dictate what you 19 Q. --the word. Require, right? 20 wrote and published? 20 A. Yeah. Yeah. 21 A. No. 21 Q. See, because you were asked -- 22 Q. They got to require you to 22 and this still goes to the integrity stuff. 23 incorporate what they wanted to say? 23 You were asked toward the end by Mr. Bicks: 24 A. No. 24 "Was there any effort by anybody at J&J if 25 Q. It's what it says. 25 you saw something that was a problem or that 85 (Pages 386 to 389) Golkow Technologies, Inc. - 1.877.370.DEPS Frederick Pooley, Ph.D. Page 390 Page 392 1 you were concerned about to not have you 2 communicate it to them." 3 Remember that? 4 A. No, we were never placed in 5 that position. 6 Q. Well, actually, sir, you were. 7 Let me see if I can help you. 8 Let's do it this way. Here's my note at the 9 bottom. 10 You remember Edinburgh? 11 A. Yeah. 12 Q. I've always wondered, do you 13 pronounce it Edinburgh or Edinburgh? 14 A. Edinburgh. 15 Q. Edinburgh. 16 Because this goes hand-in-hand: 17 "Were you ever able to form a view as to 18 whether or not these people at Johnson & 19 Johnson who you worked with" --this is 20 Mr. Bicks asking you. 21 A. Yeah. 22 Q. "Were concerned and wanted to 23 make sure the talc they were using in baby 24 powder could be used safely?" 25 A. Right. Yeah. 1 paper with you at a seminar, wasn't he? At a 2 scientific symposium? 3 A. Yeah. 4 (Pooley Exhibit 51 marked for 5 identification.) 6 QUESTIONS BY MR. LANIER: 7 Q. And at that scientific 8 symposium, you stopped him? 9 A. Yeah. 10 Q. Because he was going to say 11 that the talc had asbestos in it, right? 12 Right? 13 I need an answer, then we'll go 14 to the exhibit. 15 A. Oh, no, we stop --yeah, we 16 stopped the paper because the --we didn't 17 think it appropriate to publish - 18 Q. We? 19 A. America --yes, the main --the 20 chap who produced the information, the 21 student that they paid for. Okay. 22 Q. Well, let's look at the paper 23 trail and let's see if it may have a clearer 24 recollection. 25 And this is the Johnson & Page 391 Page 393 1 Q. You said: "Oh, yes." 1 Johnson paper trail, so we're going based on 2 Remember? 2 what their own documents show, September 3 A. Uh-huh. 3 o f '75. 4 Q. You-all stopped the Langer 4 The A.M. Langer - you knew who 5 paper, didn't you? 5 Dr. Langer was, right? 6 MR. BICKS: Objection to the 6 A. Oh, yeah, very well. 7 form. 7 Q. Analysis of talcum powder 8 THE WITNESS: Could you repeat 8 products, the Edinburgh meeting? 9 that? 9 A. Yeah. 10 QUESTIONS BY MR. LANIER: 10 Q. "Bob Dean telephoned me just 11 Q. Yes, sir. 11 before noon today to report a call which he 12 You-all stopped the Langer 12 received from Fred Pooley." 13 paper, didn't you? 13 A. Uh-huh. 14 A. I didn't stop the Langer paper. 14 Q. You're calling Bob Dean. Is he 15 Q. Yes, sir, you did. 15 a Johnson & Johnson fellow? 16 You don't remember? 16 A. Yeah. 17 A. No. I knew we had a little bit 17 Q. So you're dealing with an 18 of a problem with the publication. 18 academic conference, right? 19 Q. Had a little bit o f a problem. 19 A. Uh-huh. 20 A. Yeah. 20 Q. And is that a yes answer? 21 Q. Is that what you said? 21 A. Yes. 22 A. Yeah. 22 Q. And in that academic conference 23 Q. Had a little bit of a problem. 23 before it's --during the process or right 24 Here's what happened. Let's be 24 before it, you telephoned Bob Dean? 25 real clear. Dr. Langer was set to present a 25 A. Yes. 86 (Pages 390 to 393) Golkow Technologies, Inc. 1.877.370.DEPS Frederick Pooley, Ph.D. Page 394 Page 396 1 Q. It says, "Pooley has just 1 contra --with refuting data? 2 received Langer's manuscript contribution for 2 A. No. I d i d i t t o j u s t - t o 3 the Edinburgh presentation." 3 demonstrate -- to show that we would not - 4 A. Yeah. 4 we wouldn't be publishing a joint paper. We 5 Q. "And Pooley was very concerned 5 should publish the American results separate 6 over its contents." 6 from the British results. 7 A. Uh-huh. 7 Q. Sir, what right do you have to 8 Q. Is that right? 8 stop the academic reporting of a fellow 9 A. Yeah. 9 academic - 10 Q. "Langer's paper reports on his 10 A. I didn't stop him. 11 examination of some 33 finished talcum 11 Q. Oh, you pulled it down. 12 products." 12 A. No. I just said that I - we 13 A. Yeah. 13 wouldn't publish or present a paper, a joint 14 Q. "Which he picked off the shelf 14 paper. I had to look after the --my 15 in the past year. 17 of these are UK 15 research student who was a joint author on 16 products and the rest US." 16 that, and we had never looked at these 17 So I guess 16 in the US, right? 17 American samples. So I thought the best 18 A. Yes. 18 thing was that, you know, we weren't --we 19 Q. "Langer is claiming he's 19 couldn't see eye to eye over what he had 20 detected chrysotile and amphophiles." 20 detected in samples. 21 In other words, asbestos, 21 Q. No, sir. It's not just that. 22 right? 22 You pulled the paper. 23 A. Yeah. 23 A. Oh, yeah. 24 Q. "He has identified the products 24 (Pooley Exhibit 52 marked for 25 by name and claims he detected tremolite and 25 identification.) Page 395 Page 397 1 anthophyllite in Johnson's baby powder." 1 QUESTIONS BY MR. LANIER: 2 A. Uh-huh. 2 Q. Yeah, here's Exhibit 52. Be 3 Q. This is what you're telling Bob 3 straight with the jury on this. 4 Dean. You're calling J&J to rat out a fellow 4 A. Sure. Yeah. 5 academic, aren't you? 5 Q. Exhibit Number 52 comes out a 6 A. Yeah. 6 few weeks later. Now the conference is over? 7 Q. "As yet, Bob Dean has not been 7 A. Yeah. 8 able to identify whether this Johnson baby 8 Q. See the conference happened 9 powder is UK or US sourced. Pooley made this 9 September 14th through the 26th. 10 confidential disclosure to Dean so Bob could 10 Do you see that? 11 forewarn the UK companies and be prepared 11 A. Yeah. 12 with refuting data." 12 Q. And you ratted the guy out, it 13 A. Yeah. 13 looks like --well, that's probably 14 Q. Did you really do that? 14 argumentative. 15 A. No. 15 You called and confidentially 16 I just told Arthur Langer we 16 disclosed this to the company behind the 17 weren't going to publish the paper together. 17 academic's back? 18 Q. You called Bob Dean? 18 A. Uh-huh. 19 A. Oh, yeah. Yeah. 19 Q. What, five days before the 20 Q. Well, that's what I'm asking 20 conference started? 21 you. Did you really make this confidential 21 A. Yeah. 22 disclosure to Dean - 22 Q. Okay. So now the conference is 23 A. Yeah. 23 over and look what the Johnson & Johnson 24 Q. - so that Bob could forewarn 24 people write to their talc advisory group 25 the UK companies and be prepared with 25 about this conference. 87 (Pages 394 to 397) Golkow Technologies, Inc. 1.877.370.DEPS Frederick Pooley, Ph.D. Page 398 Page 400 1 Are you with me? 1 together. 2 A. Yeah. 2 Q. Yeah. 3 Q. "During the International 3 You couldn't afford to have 4 Congress on Occupational Health" -- 4 your name on that. You were getting paid by 5 That's a pretty important 5 J&J to say there's no asbestos in their talc, 6 thing, isn't it? 6 right? 7 A. Yeah. Inhaled particles and 7 A. No, I wasn't, but my research 8 vapors. 8 student had been paid by J&J. 9 Q. Timeout. Don't jump ahead. 9' Q. Yeah. 10 This was the International 10 This is one of those where 11 Congress on Occupational Health. This has 11 you're under a contract? 12 got people coming in from all over the world, 12 A. Uh-huh. 13 doesn't it? 13 Q. And pursuant to the contract, 14 A. Yes. A lot of --big, yeah. 14 you not only stop it, but you pulled the 15 Q. "Dr. Wehner or Wehner presented 15 papers so that everybody couldn't get them, 16 his complete studies in the paper 'Inhalation 16 didn't you? 17 of Baby Talc Powder By Hamsters,"' and talks 17 A. No. I didn't pull the papers, 18 about other reports. And then it says, "On 18 no. 19 September 19th, Dr. Pooley arrived in 19 Q. Well, you had it done? 20 Brighton and informed J&J he still had not 20 A. No. I said to this committee 21 discussed his disagreement over the British 21 that we wouldn't be publishing because I 22 finished talcum product analysis with either 22 wasn't happy about the results produced by 23 Langer or his Sinai associates." 23 the Mount Sinai laboratory. And I had never 24 A. That's right. 24 looked or examined any of the samples from 25 Q. "It was learned despite his 25 Mount Sinai, and I thought it was rather Page 399 Page 401 1 intention not to present the Sinai results, 1 dodgy data. 2 preprints of the paper containing the 2 Q. You thought it was dodgy data 3 controversial data have, in fact, been 3 when you hadn't examined it? 4 assembled for distribution to attendees of 4 A. No. When I saw it, you know, 5 the Edinburgh conference." 5 when I saw the data, I thought it was, you 6 Do you see that? 6 know, strange, let's put it. 7 A. Yeah. 7 Q. You know it got published in 8 Q. "This distribution would have 8 peer-reviewed material? 9 taken place during conference registration. 9 A. Of course, yeah, and fine so -- 10 Dr. Petterson succeeded in persuading Pooley 10 Q. You just wouldn't just let it 11 of the need to arrange for immediate removal 11 out in the Congress for everybody to gather 12 of the hostile reprint from the conference 12 around to talk about? 13 packet." 13 A. No, I didn't want --I didn't 14 A. Uh-huh. 14 want to be associated it, have my name on 15 Q. They did that. They got you to 15 that paper. So we confined the publication 16 pull it, didn't they? 16 to British talcs. 17 A. No. 17 Q. Earlier today you said that 18 Q. Yeah, he says --are you 18 Mount Sinai had a better lab than you did? 19 fussing this where it says, "Dr. Petterson 19 A. I always said they did, yes. 20 succeeded in persuading Pooley to arrange for 20 Q. And so you didn't --you got it 21 immediate removal of the hostile reprint"? 21 pulled and as a result of getting it pulled, 22 A. Yeah. 22 it finally gets to be published over a year 23 Q. Did you arrange for that? 23 later. And in that amount of time, the 24 A. No. I already told Arthur we 24 company had time to organize their responses 25 weren't going to publish the results 25 to it, didn't they? 88 (Pages 398 to 401) Golkow Technologies, Inc. - 1.877.370.DEPS Frederick Pooley, Ph.D. Page 402 Page 404 1 A. I have no idea. 1 QUESTIONS BY MR. LANIER: 2 Q. You didn't know that? 2 Q. Let me give you an example of 3 A. No. 3 how we know it. Here's Exhibit Number 54, 4 Q. In other words, the spin 4 which is another Johnson & Johnson - another 5 doctors got to work on it. Do you-all use 5 Johnson & Johnson document, Exhibit 54. 6 that word "spin" over there in England? 6 "In our review meeting with 7 A. Oh, yeah, now and again. 7 Dr. Pooley" --do you see this, Johnson & 8 MR. BICKS: Objection to the 8 Johnson, talc, 1972? 9 form. 9 A. Yes. 10 (Pooley Exhibit 53 marked for 10 Q. "In our review meeting with 11 identification.) 11 professor Pooley, he indicated the MRC" - 12 QUESTIONS BY MR. LANIER: 12 Who's that? 13 Q. I'll show you Exhibit 53. This 13 A. Medical Research Council. 14 is another J&J, goes around to a whole bunch 14 Q. In England? 15 of people on their talc advisory group in the 15 A. Uh-huh. In the UK, yes. 16 Baby Products Company, Johnson & Johnson, 16 Sorry, no, this MRC refers to the laboratory 17 1976. 17 in Cardiff. 18 And if you'll notice, on the 18 Q. Oh, it's a Cardiff lab. 19 Battelle deposition clearance study on the 19 A. Yeah. 20 page 3 of 4, below that it talks about the 20 Q. --"was going ahead with their 21 Langer paper, consumer talcum powders. 21 study using government funds." 22 It says, "This paper will 22 A. Yeah. 23 appear in the November '76 issue of the 23 Q. "i.e., they do not seem to want 24 Journal of Toxicology and Environmental 24 money from us. This would mean we would not 25 Health." 25 be able to play any role in guiding their Page 403 Page 405 1 A. Sure. 1 work, et cetera" -- 2 Q. "Appropriate responses are 2 Do you see where it says that? 3 being organized." 3 A. Yes. 4 You bought the company time to 4 Q. - "as we previously thought"? 5 make those appropriate responses, didn't you? 5 A. Yes. 6 MR. BICKS: Objection to the 6 Q. "This is unfortunate. We 7 form. 7 expected otherwise. So now it's important we 8 THE WITNESS: I have no idea. 8 carry out the Battelle study for 200 grand 9 QUESTIONS BY MR. LANIER: 9 for three years." 10 Q. It wasn't the only time. I 10 I guess that's one where they 11 mean, Johnson & Johnson often used their 11 could guide the work? 12 financial ties to try to influence folks, 12 A. Sure. 13 didn't they? 13 Q. Play a role guiding the work as 14 A. I don't know. 14 they thought, et cetera. 15 Q. The Battelle study itself is 15 Do you see that? 16 something that the company spent 200 grand on 16 A. Yeah. 17 just so they could help maneuver the results. 17 Q. Now, they were paying you. 18 MR. BICKS: Objection to the 18 Were they guiding your work? 19 form. 19 A. No. 20 QUESTIONS BY MR. LANIER: 20 Q. So in terms of integrity, data 21 Q. Did you know that? 21 and report and all the rest, you were active 22 A. No idea. 22 in pulling the Langer presentation and 23 (Pooley Exhibit 54 marked for 23 article? 24 identification.) 24 A. Yes. 25 25 Q. From an academic meeting? 89 (Pages 402 to 405) Golkow Technologies, Inc. - 1.877.370.DEPS Frederick Pooley, Ph.D. Page 406 Page 408 1 A. Yes. 1 Q. - right? 2 Q. Warnings, it's the last thing 2 And then so if the jury is 3 on integrity stop. 3 sitting there thinking, "Gee, can just like 4 There's never a problem in 4 these few little fibers that are being found 5 giving information to the public that might 5 here have any role in cancer," of course, if 6 affect their health, right? 6 you're finding a few fibers, you know that 7 It's important to warn? 7 the fiber presence is much greater, right? 8 A. Oh, yes. Yes. Yes. They have 8 A. Yes. 9 adverts on stop smoking all the time. 9 MR. BICKS: Objection to the 10 Q. Yeah. If the company is 10 form. No foundation. Beyond the 11 putting out baby powder that's going to be 11 scope. 12 used on infants -- 12 QUESTIONS BY MR. LANIER: 13 A. Yeah. 13 Q. Now, another thing I want to 14 Q. -- and the company has data, 14 talk to you about is translocation, and what 15 whether the company agrees with it or not, 15 I mean by that - you know that term, right? 16 that that talcum powder, that baby powder, 16 A. Yeah. Yeah. 17 might have cancer-causing products in it, 17 Q. In other words, you might 18 it's important that the company warn? 18 breathe the fiber in and it may go into the 19 MR. BICKS: Objection to the 19 lungs, you might apply it externally to the 20 form. 20 genitals or another area, but the idea is 21 QUESTIONS BY MR. LANIER: 21 does the fiber move in the body. 22 Q. So that parents can make a 22 MR. BECKER: Object to form. 23 decision between buying that or just buying 23 QUESTIONS BY MR. LANIER: 24 the com starch variety, right? 24 Q. Right? 25 MR. BICKS: Objection to the 25 A. Uh-huh. Page 407 Page 409 1 form. 1 Q. And I asked you about this 2 THE WITNESS: Yes. 2 yesterday in your deposition, and you told me 3 QUESTIONS BY MR. LANIER: 3 no. 4 Q. Thank you. 4 Is that right? 5 All right. Next stop on the 5 MR. BICKS: Objection to the 6 road and the last stop. 6 form. 7 I want to talk to you about 7 THE WITNESS: Yes, that i s - 8 cancer for a little bit. Cancer, now, I'm 8 translocation means that you -- the 9 hoping we can get through this pretty 9 particle is capable o f traveling, if 10 quickly, so let's see where you agree with me 10 you like, okay. 11 and where you disagree. 11 Now, the potency of asbestos 12 Okay? 12 dust and the reason why it is - or 13 First of all, in terms of 13 can produce mesothelioma, et cetera, 14 cancer, it is individual asbestos fibers that 14 is because the particles don't travel. 15 cause cancer; it's not the clumps, right? 15 QUESTIONS BY MR. LANIER: 16 MR. BICKS: Objection to the 16 Q. So you're in the J&J case 17 form. Beyond the scope. 17 today? 18 THE WITNESS: Yes, it's ~ it 18 A. Uh-huh. 19 has to be inhaled. If it is in 19 Q. Your J&J paid testimony - 20 clumps, it's not inhalable. 20 A. Yeah. 21 QUESTIONS BY MR. LANIER: 21 Q. --is the particles don't 22 Q. So a lot o f times when you look 22 travel? 23 at tissue, what you're finding are individual 23 A. No. 24 asbestos fibers in the tissue ~ 24 MR. BICKS: Objection to the 25 A. Yes. 25 form. 90 (Pages 406 to 409) Golkow Technologies, Inc. 1.877.370.DEPS Frederick Pooley, Ph.D. Page 410 Page 412 1 QUESTIONS BY MR. LANIER: 1 Put out of the body? 2 Q. That's just false, isn't it? 2 A. Yeah. 3 A. No. 3 Q. - "but they do not circulate 4 Q. I mean, you can breathe in the 4 through the body; is that your opinion?" 5 fibers and they will travel in the body? 5 A. Yes. 6 A. No. 6 Q. Do you see the question? 7 MR. BICKS: Objection to the 7 MR. BICKS: Objection to the 8 form. 8 form. 9 THE WITNESS: Why should they? 9 QUESTIONS BY MR. LANIER: 10 QUESTIONS BY MR. LANIER: 10 Q. Look at the answer: "There is 11 Q. You can apply them genitally 11 evidence to show that mineral particles, 12 and they will travel in the body? 12 including asbestos, when deposited in the 13 MR. BICKS: Objection to the 13 lung will move via various systems, the lymph 14 form. 14 system, and - for example, and circulate in 15 THE WITNESS: No. I'm not 15 the body, yes. There's a recent publication 16 aware of that. 16 from Japan indicating translocation." 17 QUESTIONS BY MR. LANIER: 17 A. Yeah. 18 Q. Sir, you're not only aware of 18 Q. Do you see that? 19 it, you've testified to it before, haven't 19 A. Yes. 20 you? 20 Q. Today, particles don't travel. 21 A. Have I? I don't - - 1 can't 21 Then, particles do travel. 22 remember. 22 Do you see that? 23 Q. If we look at your non-J&J 23 A. Yes. 24 testimony ~ 24 (Pooley Exhibit 55 marked for 25 A. Yeah. 25 identification.) Page 411 Page 413 1 Q. - you say the exact opposite; 1 QUESTIONS BY MR. LANIER: 2 you say particles do travel. 2 Q. And, in fact, there's a good 3 MR. BICKS: Objection to the 3 bit of scientific evidence that bears this 4 form and beyond the scope. 4 out as well. 5 QUESTIONS BY MR. LANIER: 5 You referenced one of the 6 Q. Don't you? 6 papers in your testimony there. I'll give 7 A. Yes, but only out of the body. 7 you Exhibit Number 55, the American Journal 8 Q. No. Let's look at one of your 8 of Industrial Medicine paper from 1991. This 9 depositions just as a sample. 9 isn't old news - 1mean, isn't new news. 10 This is the deposition you gave 10 "Translocation of inhaled 11 in the Eastern District of Texas case, 11 asbestos fibers from the lung to other 12 Soignet versus Montello. It was taken at the 12 tissues." 13 Ritz Hotel in London in February o f 1989. 13 A. Yep. 14 Do you see this? 14 Q. "To investigate translocation 15 A. Yes. 15 of asbestos fibers, tissue samples from 13 16 Q. It might help you to identify 16 North American insulators were examined. Of 17 it if you remember who represented you. I 17 the two major types of asbestos, chrysotile 18 think this was one for Union Carbide and 18 and amosite, chrysotile was found to be much 19 Henry Garrard. 19 more active in the translocation than 20 A. Henry Garrard, yeah. 20 amosite, being the fiber mainly detected in 21 Q. On page 31 o f your deposition 21 mesothelioma." 22 you were asked: "In your view and in your 22 MR. BICKS: Objection to the 23 opinion, asbestos fibers inhaled into the 23 form. 24 lung either deposit in the lung or are 24 QUESTIONS BY MR. LANIER: 25 expurgated by the body" -- 25 Q. Do you see that? 91 (Pages 410 to 413) Golkow Technologies, Inc. 1.877.370.DEPS Frederick Pooley, Ph.D. Page 414 Page 416 1 MR. BICKS: And beyond the 1 there's - particles don't travel and you 2 scope. 2 gave thought to the safety aspects of what 3 QUESTIONS BY MR. LANIER: 3 the company was about, Exhibit 56 is a paper 4 Q. Do you see that, sir? 4 that I guess you had not seen? 5 A. Yes. 5 MR. BICKS: Objection to the 6 Q. And if you look at the actual 6 form. 7 study, this translocation and the results 7 QUESTIONS BY MR. LANIER: 8 applied also to the very kinds of asbestos 8 Q. "Is there transplacental 9 that you were finding in the talc and others 9 transfer of asbestos: A study of 40 10 as well. Chrysotile, but in addition to 10 stillborn infants." 11 that, a small number o f anthophyllite fibers? 11 Do you see that? 12 A. Uh-huh. 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. Tremolite, actinolite fibers. 13 MR. BICKS: Objection to the 14 Do you see that? 14 form. 15 A. Yeah. 15 QUESTIONS BY MR. LANIER: 16 MR. BICKS: Objection to the 16 Q. "Low levels of small, thin, 17 form. Beyond the scope. 17 uncoated asbestos fibers were detected in the 18 QUESTIONS BY MR. LANIER: 18 placentas and organs of 37.5 percent of the 19 Q. So these fibers that you 19 stillborn infants. The fibers range from .05 20 testified yesterday don't travel - 20 to 5 microns in length, .03 to .3 in width, 21 A. Uh-huh. 21 with a mean length of 1.15 and a mean width 22 Q. --not just according to you do 22 of 0.06." 23 they travel, but according to the literature 23 MR. BICKS: Objection. 24 they travel as well, right? 24 QUESTIONS BY MR. LANIER: 25 A. Yeah. 25 Q. By the way, they don't use the Page 415 Page 417 1 MR. BICKS: Objection to the 1 same statistics you do on a fiber length, 2 form. 2 what makes a fiber a fiber, do they? 3 MR. BECKER: Object to the 3 MR. BICKS: Object to the form. 4 form. 4 QUESTIONS BY MR. LANIER: 5 QUESTIONS BY MR. LANIER: 5 Q. Do they, sir? 6 Q. And this is going back decades 6 A. No. The fiber lengths vary. 7 ago, true? 7 Q. "Our studies demonstrate the 8 A. Yep. 8 presence of short and thin fibers in 9 Q. And lest we think it was just 9 stillborn infants." 10 decades ago and just in the miners - - 1 mean, 10 A. No. 11 the insulation workers, did you know that the 11 Q. These fibers travel, don't 12 asbestos fibers even crossed the placental 12 they? 13 boundary and can travel into the infants that 13 MR. BICKS: Object to the form. 14 mommas are carrying? 14 MR. BECKER: Object to the 15 A. Right. 15 form. 16 MR. BICKS: Objection. 16 QUESTIONS BY MR. LANIER: 17 QUESTIONS BY MR. LANIER: 17 Q. Don't they, sir? 18 Q. Did you know that? 18 A. Yeah. They say so in that 19 A. No. 19 paper, yes. 20 MR. BICKS: Objection to the 20 Q. And my last concern here on the 21 form. 21 cancer stop, and then I'll pass the witness 22 (Pooley Exhibit 56 marked for 22 back. 23 identification.) 23 If Johnson & Johnson in this 24 QUESTIONS BY MR. LANIER: 24 case tries to suggest, the Ratcliff case, 25 Q. So when you testified that 25 that the mesothelioma was caused by exposure 92 (Pages 414 to 417) Golkow Technologies, Inc. 1.877.370.DEPS Frederick Pooley, Ph.D. Page 418 Page 420 1 to brake dust, that's contrary to every 2 opinion you've offered in your litigation 3 history, isn't it? 4 MR. BICKS: Objection to the 5 form. 6 THE WITNESS: Yeah. 7 MR. BICKS: Beyond the scope. 8 QUESTIONS BY MR. LANIER: 9 Q. Go ahead. 10 A. Yes. As far as I'm aware there 11 was --there were very few fibers in brake 12 dust. 13 Q. And the fibers that are there 14 are chrysotile? 15 A. Well, they get firmly altered, 16 don't they, from the action of the brakes. 17 Q. But you've always said brake 18 dust does not cause meso, right? 19 A. Right. 20 MR. BICKS: Objection to the 21 form. Beyond the scope. 22 THE WITNESS: Yeah. 23 MR. LANIER: Okay. I think 24 that brings us to a conclusion of the 25 road. I've got a lot o f questions I 1 Are you with me on that topic? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. And suggestions were made by 4 Mr. Lanier to the - 1 guess a jury if they 5 hear that, that I was making things up and we 6 really couldn't tell actually what Arthur 7 Langer was talking about in this published 8 study. 9 Remember that? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. And related to that, you were 12 asked questions about Arthur Langer and his 13 paper and whether or not it should be 14 published. 15 Was one of your concerns that 16 you wanted an opportunity -- 17 MR. LANIER: Object to leading. 18 QUESTIONS BY MR. BICKS: 19 Q. --to review his data? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. And if we look at Exhibit 18, 22 which the jury has seen, and this is an 23 exhibit I talked to you about, and this is 24 your report on all of that data, right? 25 A. Yes. Yeah. Page 419 Page 421 1 didn't ask you, but I think I'll get a 2 chance to come back after Mr. Bicks, 3 and so I'll -- I've saved a few. 4 THE WITNESS: Okay. 5 MR. LANIER: Thanks. I'll pass 6 the witness. 7 VIDEOGRAPHER: All right. 8 Standby. The time is 4:24 p.m. Going 9 off the record. 10 (O ff the record at 4:24 p.m.) 11 (Pooley Exhibit 57 marked for 12 identification.) 13 VIDEOGRAPHER: All right. 14 We're back on the record. The time is 15 4:32 p.m. 16 REDIRECT EXAMINATION 17 QUESTIONS BY MR. BICKS: 18 Q. We're at late afternoon, 19 Professor Pooley, and I appreciate it. 20 A. Yeah. 21 Q. I want to start with a topic of 22 conversation that took up a lot o f time, 23 namely Arthur Langer, the paper that he 24 published and what he was saying about 25 Johnson & Johnson. 1 MR. LANIER: Objection. 2 Leading. 3 QUESTIONS BY MR. BICKS: 4 Q. All right. And it's dated 5 January 5, 1976, and we talked about this on 6 your direct, right? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. All right. And one of the big 9 questions that Mr. Lanier asked you a lot 10 about is that you were changing your story by 11 saying that you had never found asbestos in 12 talc versus that you had. 13 Remember all those series of 14 questions? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. All right. So in this report, 17 Exhibit 18, you refer to six samples that 18 appear to contain amphophile-type material, 19 right? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. All right. But it turns out, 22 right, that when we look at actually what the 23 samples are, and we go to the back, that 24 Johnson & Johnson was one of the products 25 where there was no asbestos found, right? 93 (Pages 418 to 421) Golkow Technologies, Inc. 1.877.370.DEPS Frederick Pooley, Ph.D. Page 422 Page 424 1 A. Yes. 1 entry, cashmere bouquet, and then what it 2 MR. LANIER: Objection. 2 indicates are several percentage fibrous 3 Leading. 3 anthophyllite, right? 4 QUESTIONS BY MR. BICKS: 4 Do you see that? 5 Q. And is that consistent with 5 A. Yes. 6 what the president of Mount Sinai Hospital 6 Q. And then go back to sample 1 on 7 said about whether or not Johnson's baby 7 the chart that we were looking at. 8 powder had asbestos in it? 8 A. Uh-huh. 9 MR. LANIER: Objection. 9 Q. And do you see the entries down 10 Leading. 10 here next to anthophyllite? 11 THE WITNESS: Yes. 11 A. 11.4 percent. 12 QUESTIONS BY MR. BICKS: 12 Q. Yeah. 13 Q. And what Harvard Public Health 13 Does it appear to you as if 14 and NIOSH said when they said that the 14 it's matching up? 15 Vermont talc had --ore deposit had no 15 A. Yes. 16 asbestos in it? 16 Q. All right. 17 A. Yes. 17 MR. LANIER: Objection. Form. 18 MR. LANIER: Objection. 18 QUESTIONS BY MR. BICKS: 19 Leading. 19 Q. And then so if we keep going 20 QUESTIONS BY MR. BICKS: 20 down and we see, for example, sample 8, the 21 Q. And the McCrone's 1987 report 21 rosemary talc. 22 that I showed you where they said they looked 22 Do you see that? 23 at 15 years of talc samples at Windsor and 23 A. Yes. 24 said it was asbestos-free, do you remember 24 Q. And then you go on the chart 25 that? 25 and you see the indications of anthophyllite Page 423 Page 425 1 A. Yes. 1 and so on and so forth? 2 Q. And is all o f that -- 2 A. Yeah. 3 MR. LANIER: Objection. 3 Q. And doesn't that look like it's 4 Leading. 4 tracking exactly what's in Langer's paper? 5 QUESTIONS BY MR. BICKS: 5 MR. LANIER: Objection. 6 Q. --information, is that 6 Leading. 7 consistent with what your reports reflect 7 THE WITNESS: Yes. 8 about whether or not there is asbestos in the 8 QUESTIONS BY MR. BICKS: 9 talc that Johnson & Johnson used? 9 Q. All right. And then you look 10 A. Yes. It's consistent, yeah. 10 at the Johnson & Johnson numbers here, 4, 9, 11 Q. All right. And let's, again, 11 8 - 4, 9,18 and then 20, right? 12 look at these, and I want you to have in 12 A. Yes. 13 front of you the Exhibit 18 and also look at 13 Q. And then you look back at this 14 19 and the chart at page 266 of the study. 14 chart, and again, this is work, right, that 15 A. Yes. 15 you're looking at in Exhibit 18? 16 Q. And 266, to remind our jury, 16 A. Yes. 17 this was the one where I actually looked at 17 Q. This was work that was being 18 the samples which didn't have names and I had 18 done by Arthur Langer, right? 19 4, 9, 18 and 20 as what are Johnson & Johnson 19 A. No, I - 20 samples, right? 20 MR. LANIER: Objection. 21 A. Right. Yeah. 21 THE WITNESS: - I did that 22 Q. All right. So now look, if you 22 work. 23 might, just to give you some orientation and 23 QUESTIONS BY MR. BICKS: 24 look at, for example, the --going to 18, 24 Q. But on the sample numbers -- 25 right, and look, for example, here, the first 25 A. On the samples. 94 (Pages 422 to 425) Golkow Technologies, Inc. 1.877.370.DEPS Frederick Pooley, Ph.D. Page 426 Page 428 1 Q. The sample numbers that he was 1 one o f the organizations in the United States 2 looking at, too, right? 2 responsible for safety and health, geologic 3 A. Yes. Uh-huh. 3 studies dating back to the early 1900s have 4 Q. Same samples, right? 4 shown that Vermont talc deposits contain no 5 A. Yes. 5 asbestos? 6 Q. All right. And so is there any 6 A. Yes. 7 doubt that when you look at this, this 7 MR. LANIER: Objection. 8 published article of Langer, that he's 8 Leading. 9 talking --that you and he are talking about 9 QUESTIONS BY MR. BICKS: 10 the same samples? 10 Q. And if we look in this report, 11 A. Yes. 11 there are actually sampling and testing 12 Q. They are the same, right? 12 done - 13 A. They were the same. 13 MR. LANIER: Exhibit number? 14 MR. LANIER: Objection. 14 MR. BICKS: 2. 15 Leading. 15 QUESTIONS BY MR. BICKS: 16 QUESTIONS BY MR. BICKS: 16 Q. Bulk samples, no asbestos in 17 Q. Any question for anybody who 17,, these samples, further analysis by NIOSH. 18 works in this and was actually working on the 18 Do you see that, bulk samples, 19 samples and knows these articles that that's 19 no asbestos in these samples? 20 actually the scientific truth? 20 A. Yeah. 21 MR. LANIER: Objection. 21 Q. Was this work done, to your 22 Speculation. 22 knowledge, for litigation, or was this work 23 THE WITNESS: Yes. 23 done for public health? 24 QUESTIONS BY MR. BICKS: 24 A. For public health. 25 Q. Right. 25 Q. Yeah. Page 427 Page 429 1 And to one of the key questions 1 And if you go to the conclusion 2 that this jury is going to have to answer, 2 of this paper, conclusions, petrographic 3 which is, is there asbestos in Johnson & 3 microscopy analysis, analytical transmission, 4 Johnson's talc, right? 4 electron microscopy, X-ray diffraction, 5 You looked at that question, 5 step-scanning revealed no asbestos in the 6 right? 6 bulk samples. 7 MR. LANIER: Objection. 7 Is that consistent with the 8 Leading. 8 work that you did? 9 QUESTIONS BY MR. BICKS: 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. For how many years did you look 10 Q. Mount Sinai --and so we're 11 at those ore supplies and the finished 11 clear, Mount Sinai, that is where Dr. Langer 12 product? 12 worked, Dr. Selikoff? 13 A. Oh, over ten years. 13 A. Yep. 14 Q. Uh-huh. 14 Q. And it's the opinion of Mount 15 And in all of that work you 15 Sinai's Department of Pediatrics that baby 16 did, did you reach a scientific conclusion 16 talc is a useful and safe product? 17 about whether or not there was asbestos in 17 MR. LANIER: Objection. 18 Johnson & Johnson's talc? 18 Leading. 19 A. Yes. 19 QUESTIONS BY MR. BICKS: 20 Q. And what was your conclusion? 20 Q. Right? 21 A. That we couldn't detect any. 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. Uh-huh. 22 Q. And the statement here, can you 23 And is this consistent with one 23 read it to the jury starting with "the"? 24 of the exhibits I showed you, Exhibit 2, 24 MR. LANIER: Exhibit number? 25 Harvard School of Public Health and NIOSH, 25 THE WITNESS: "The most 95 (Pages 426 to 429) Golkow Technologies, Inc. 1.877.370.DEPS Frederick Pooley, Ph.D. Page 430 Page 432 1 commonly used baby talc has been 1 Q. And you will see they too found 2 consistently free of asbestos." 2 no asbestos, right? 3 QUESTIONS BY MR. BICKS: 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. And this is from the president 4 Q. And was that consistent with 5 of Mount Sinai Medical Center, right? 5 your conclusion? 6 A. Yeah. 6 A. Yep. 7 Q. And was this conclusion 7 Q. If you go on here, you see also 8 consistent with your conclusions? 8 the Atomic Energy Research Establishment at 9 A. Yes. 9 Harwell. 10 Q. Let me mark this. It was 10 Are you familiar with that? 11 Exhibit 23. We didn't mark it as Exhibit 23. 11 A. Yes. 12 Take a look at that. 57 we'll have to make 12 Q. And it says they're finalizing 13 it because somebody took 23. 13 their examination on Italian 00000 talc and 14 (Pooley Exhibit 57 marked for 14 they say they were unable to find any 15 identification.) 15 asbestos whatsoever in the samples we 16 QUESTIONS BY MR. BICKS: 16 submitted to them. 17 Q. This is a Johnson & Johnson 17 Was that consistent with the 18 document. 18 work you did -- 19 A. Uh-huh. 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. And say again what exhibit 20 Q. - over those years? 21 number is it? 57. 21 A. Yes. 22 And it's somebody named Dr. A. 22 Q. So if I started to make a list 23 Goudie. 23 just based on what we talked about, we looked 24 Do you see that? 24 at Harvard Public Health/NIOSH: No asbestos 25 A. Yeah. A1 Goudie, yeah. 25 in J&J. Page 431 Page 433 1 Q. Yeah. 1 Consistent with what you came 2 And it talks about what you've 2 up with? 3 completed your report on the examination of 3 A. Yes. 4 the Italian talc, and you were typing it 4 Q. We look at Langer's report, and 5 right now, right? 5 we went through those four samples of Johnson 6 A. Yes. 6 & Johnson products, right? 7 Q. And it says here that there was 7 A. Yeah. 8 an interim report, right? 8 Q. No asbestos, right? 9 A. Yeah. 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. And it goes on to say that you 10 Q. We just looked at the Mining 11 are confirming here that it was all very pure 11 Institute of Polytechnic School? 12 talc? 12 A. Uh-huh. 13 A. Talc, yeah. 13 Q. No asbestos? 14 Q. Right? Right? 14 A. Asbestos. 15 A. Yes. 15 Q. Right? 16 Q. And that's consistent with what 16 A. Yes. 17 you concluded, right? 17 Q. We looked at the Atomic Energy 18 A. Yes. 18 Research Commission - it's the Atomic Energy 19 Q. And it also says that there was 19 Research Establishment. 20 a copy of the report from the Mining 20 A. Establishment. 21 Institute of the Polytechnic School of Turin 21 Q. No asbestos? 22 relating to a completely and totally 22 A. Asbestos. 23 independent analysis that they made on 23 Q. Right? 24 Italian talc? 24 A. Yes. 25 A. Yes. 25 Q. We looked at McCrone's, 96 (Pages 430 to 433) Golkow Technologies, Inc. 1.877.370.DEPS Frederick Pooley, Ph.D. Page 434 Page 436 1 15 years o f studying, no asbestos? 2 A. Asbestos. 3 Q. Right? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. Then we looked at your -- I'm 6 going to call it your rat study, remember 7 that -- 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. --that you were on? 10 48 rats injection, no 11 mesotheliomas, right? 12 A. Yeah. 13 Q. And what does that tell you 14 about whether or not there's asbestos? 15 A. It --it's obviously - no 16 fibrous mineral in the sample to initiate a 17 disease response. 18 Q. Yeah. 19 And so I did a little timeline 20 of your particular work, and I'm going to 21 mark it as an exhibit, 58. 22 (Pooley Exhibit 58 marked for 23 identification.) 24 QUESTIONS BY MR. BICKS: 25 Q. These are some documents that 1 samples taken, some tremolite was located but 2 it was not asbestiform in character and has 3 not been detected in 00000 talc dating back 4 to 1949, right? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. The Vermont mine, your report, 7 amphophile minerals were found in discrete 8 locations and not disseminated throughout the 9 talc ore and were not asbestiform in 10 character. Serpentine mineral was found in 11 the specimens located at the center but no 12 fibrous components were observed, right? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. 108/T, a sample we talked 15 about, no evidence of the mineral at all, 16 right? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. Italian cosmetic-grade, no 19 chrysotile was found, right? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. Italy, chrysotile asbestos had 22 not been detected in any of the cosmetic talc 23 examined so far, right? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. And then we looked at Page 435 Page 437 1 we went through on your testimony and 1 January 8, 1976: Nondetect, nondetect, 2 remember the first one when you visited and 2 nondetect, nondetect, nondetect, right? 3 you concluded that the massive talc was 3 A. Yeah. 4 exceptionally pure, right? 4 Q. So if we add on this list, 5 A. Yes. 5 we've got Harvard, we've got the Langer 6 Q. And then you looked at Vermont 6 report, we've got the Mining Institute, 7 samples in late '71, and you concluded that 7 Atomic Research, McCrone's, 15 years, your 8 the content of any chrysotile was nil, which 8 study, and then we can put in here all of the 9 we said was zero, right? 9 work that you did on more than, you told us, 10 A. Yes. 10 150 samples, no asbestos. 11 Q. And then in March of 1972, your 11 I did not ask you about the 12 documents that this jury saw said 12 epidemiology and the miners. You're familiar 13 asbestos-free, right? 13 with that, are you not? 14 A. Yes. 14 A. That paper, yeah. 15 Q. And then on September 8th, no 15 Q. That the miners who actually 16 amphophile or chrysotile mineral was detected 16 worked in Italy and also in Vermont were 17 in any of the numerous powders examined, 17 studied. 18 right? 18 Did you know that? 19 A. Yes. 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. And then in the Shower to 20 Q. And I think the number is about 21 Shower, no detectable chrysotile or 21 2,800 miners and millers? 22 amphophile asbestos, right? 22 A. Millers. 23 A. Yeah. 23 Q. Do you know from those papers 24 Q. And then September 28th, no 24 how many mesotheliomas there were? 25 chrysotile was found at the mine or in the 25 MR. LANIER: Objection. 97 (Pages 434 to 437) Golkow Technologies, Inc. - 1.877.370.DEPS Frederick Pooley, Ph.D. Page 438 Page 440 1 Leading. 1 A. Yes. 2 THE WITNESS: Zero. 2 Q. And is that consistent with at 3 QUESTIONS BY MR. BICKS: 3 least with the work you did on Johnson & 4 Q. Zero. 4 Johnson? 5 The EPA, we looked in the 5 A. Yes, indeed. 6 McCrone's document where the EPA said that 6 Q. All right. So I'm going to 7 they had concluded no asbestos. 7 keep going on my list adding this. My 8 Do you recall that? 8 handwriting is not great, but I'm going to go 9 A. Yes. 9 up here and I'm going to start 11, American 10 Q. The FDA, you're familiar that 10 Cancer Society. 11 it examined talc on a few occasions in the 11 And then remember I showed you 12 United States? 12 the 1984 Sunday Times Magazine, right, where 13 A. Yes. 13 we had Selikoff, Lewin and Eiermann. 14 Q. And it concluded no asbestos in 14 Remember that name? 15 baby powder? 15 A. Yeah. 16 MR. LANIER: Objection. 16 Q. No asbestos. 17 Leading. 17 Do you remember that? 18 QUESTIONS BY MR. BICKS: 18 A. Yeah. 19 Q. Did it conclude that there was 19 Q. All right. And this is only 20 no asbestos in Johnson & Johnson's baby 20 some of the groups, right? 21 powder? 21 You're also aware that MIT -- 22 A. Yes. 22 did they look at samples? 23 Q. One organization I did not ask 23 MR. LANIER: Objection. 24 you about was the American Cancer Society. 24 Leading. 25 And I'm on ten so far on my list, so I guess 25 Page 439 Page 441 1 I'll go over to the --I can't go that -- 1 QUESTIONS BY MR. BICKS: 2 MR. LANIER: Objection. 2 Q. Do you know whether a professor 3 Sidebar. 3 at MIT reviewed samples from these deposits 4 (Pooley Exhibit 59 marked for 4 and concluded whether or not there was 5 identification.) 5 asbestos? 6 QUESTIONS BY MR. BICKS: 6 A. At Brown. 7 Q. And this is exhibit --what is 7 Q. At Brown? 8 it? --59. This is from the American Cancer 8 A. Yes. 9 Society and it's recent. It's from their 9 Q. Remember what he concluded? 10 website. January 5,2008 {sic}. 10 A. Yes. 11 Do you see that? 11 Q. MIT? 12 A. Yep. 12 A. No asbestos. 13 Q. At least by January 5,2018. 13 Q. Yeah. I think actually 14 And American Cancer Society in 14 Brown -- my recollection was Brown was at 15 the United States has some respect, right? 15 Princeton. 16 A. (Witness shrugs shoulders.) 16 A. Oh, Princeton. 17 Q. All right. And so what do they 17 Q. Does that make sense? Berger? 18 say here talking about talcum powder. This 18 A. Berger. 19 type of talc is not used in modem consumer 19 MR. LANIER: Objection. 20 products. Talc that is asbestos and is 20 Leading. 21 generally accepted as being able to cause 21 QUESTIONS BY MR. BICKS: 22 cancer if it is inhaled and the American 22 Q. Berger. 14, Princeton, no 23 Cancer Society says this type of talc is not 23 asbestos. 24 used in modem consumer products. 24 Now, you were asked questions. 25 Do you see that? 25 Let me hit some topics quickly. 98 (Pages 438 to 441) Golkow Technologies, Inc. 1.877.370.DEPS Frederick Pooley, Ph.D. Page 442 Page 444 1 Remember you were shown the 1 And remember you were showed 2 document about that you were controllable or 2 this McCrone report that had the "do not 3 questioning are you controllable? 3 replace with another version." 4 A. Yes. 4 Remember this? 5 Q. Was anybody --are you 5 A. Yes. 6 controllable, and did Johnson & Johnson ever 6 Q. This all relates to the Lewin 7 try to control you? 7 examples, right? 8 A. No. Notdirectly.no. 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. You were asked about the 9 Q. And we talked a lot about that. 10 research contract that you had with Johnson & 10 Ultimately Lewin himself said there was no 11 Johnson. 11 asbestos, right? 12 Remember that? 12 A. Yes. 13 A. Yes. 13 Q. All right. You were also shown 14 Q. Was there - did your research 14 a paper by A.M. Blount. 15 assistant actually publish an article? 15 MR. LANIER: Objection. 16 A. Yes, he was on the meeting 16 Leading. 17 where Arthur Langer's contribution was 17 QUESTIONS BY MR. BICKS: 18 removed. 18 Q. Do you remember that? 19 Q. Yeah. 19 A. Yes. 20 A. And he was an author. 20 Q. Did you take a look at this 21 Q. And did Johnson & Johnson have 21 paper to determine whether or not she used 22 any control over what your research assistant 22 TEM? 23 did? 23 A. No, she didn't. She used 24 A. No. 24 optical microscopy. 25 Q. No. 25 0- Is it a problem if you don't Page 443 Page 445 1 Now, you were asked a lot about 1 use TEM? 2 tremolite and the difference between 2 A. Yes. It means the finer 3 tremolite and tremolites that is asbestos? 3 fibers, the 0.2 on the micronometer, you're 4 A. Yeah. 4 unable to visualize them. 5 Q. Is that an important difference 5 Q. Yeah. 6 to you? 6 A. With an optical system. 7 A. Yes, because the disease -- 7 Q. All right. So is this a good 8 disease here is attributed --attributable to 8 method in your view or bad method? 9 these amphophile minerals is a function of 9 A. I've never used it, so I can't 10 whether or not they are fibrous or not 10 comment on its ease of application, as it 11 fibrous. And the finer the fibers that you 11 were, but obviously if it doesn't give you 12 can form from samples of these amphophiles, 12 full information, it's not very useful 13 then the more hazardous they become. 13 research-wise. 14 Q. And so when Mr. Lanier --this 14 Q. Yeah. 15 is his Exhibit 43 that he showed you, this 15 And I had my handwritten chart 16 article, and what does it say? 16 of the different organizations that we talked 17 Fibrous? 17 about, Harvard, Langer, Mining Institute of 18 A. Fibrous amphophile, yeah. 18 Polytechnic, Atomic Research, McCrone, your 19 Q. Is that consistent with your 19 rat study, your 150 samples, the 20 view? 20 epidemiology, EPA, American Cancer Society, 21 A. Oh, yeah. It's the--the 21 Selikoff, Lewin, MIT, you think these groups 22 biological system, the lungs, they don't 22 were using good science and probably good 23 recognize fibers by name. They only 23 methodology? 24 recognize fibers by size and shape. 24 A. All of them -- some of them 25 Q. Uh-huh. 25 were probably, you know, not using what you 99 (Pages 442 to 445) Golkow Technologies, Inc. 1.877.370.DEPS Frederick Pooley, Ph.D. Page 446 Page 448 1 might call up-to-date equipment. 1 recognized definition of asbestos? 2 Q. Yeah. 2 A. No, not really. No. 3 A. I'm sure, but I don't know 3 Q. Yeah. 4 their laboratories. 4 And if you look further at what 5 Q. All right. 5 the issues here and you look at what was 6 A. I can't comment. 6 going on, it says that "the Dutch consumer 7 MR. LANIER: Objection. 7 organization attempted to determine the 8 Speculation. 8 asbestos content by scanning electron 9 QUESTIONS BY MR. BICKS: 9 microscopy and X-ray energy dispersive 10 Q. Now, you were asked questions 10 analysis. This method has the following 11 about this Dutch --whether or not something 11 limitations," and it goes on to indicate what 12 was going on over in, I guess, a Dutch 12 they are. 13 consumer organization. 13 Do you see that? 14 Remember that? 14 A. Yes. 15 A. Yes. 15 Q. It indicates issues with the 16 Q. And you were shown a few 16 use of scanning electron microscopy? 17 documents. I actually want to show you a 17 A. Yeah. 18 couple that you didn't -- weren't shown. 18 Q. And that a talc platelet lying 19 (Pooley Exhibit 60 marked for 19 on the edge could be viewed as a fiber? 20 identification.) 20 A. As a fiber, yes. 21 QUESTIONS BY MR. BICKS: 21 Q. And in your work that you did 22 Q. All right. If you look at the 22 in your lab, did you see people making these 23 front, this is the definition of asbestos 23 kinds of mistakes? 24 that was offered? 24 A. Oh, yes. Yeah. You had to be 25 MR. LANIER: What's this from? 25 careful preparing samples so you didn't get Page 447 Page 449 1 MR. BICKS: It's a Johnson & 2 Johnson, definition of asbestos. 3 MR. LANIER: I mean, dated? 4 Give me something to go on. What is 5 this document from? 6 MR. BICKS: Part o f the Johnson 7 & Johnson production. 8 MR. LANIER: Okay. But, I 9 mean, who authored it? I mean, what 10 is it? 11 MR. BICKS: Yeah, look through 12 the document. 13 MR. LANIER: I am. Nothing to 14 identify it. 15 MR. BICKS: All right. 16 QUESTIONS BY MR. BICKS: 17 Q. All right. Let's look here the 18 definition o f asbestos offered by the Dutch 19 consumer organization is as follows. 20 Do you see that? 21 A. Yep. 22 Q. "All needle and/or fibrous 23 parts are composed units consisting of 24 magnesium and silicon." 25 Is that, in your experience, a 1 particles on edge. 2 Q. Uh-huh. 3 And it says here, "If one does 4 see a fiber, it's not possible to call it an 5 asbestos fiber by the presence of the 6 element's magnesium and silicon. Both talc 7 and chloride have the elements and magnesium 8 and silicon, however, they are not asbestos 9 minerals." 10 A. That's correct. 11 Q. Right. 12 And so do you see in looking at 13 these documents that there were some pretty 14 serious problems with what was going on? 15 MR. LANIER: Objection. 16 Leading. 17 THE WITNESS: Yes. 18 QUESTIONS BY MR. BICKS: 19 Q. And we've learned a fair amount 20 because what we've talked a lot about and 21 people are - we learned with history that in 22 the 1970s some scientists, including at Mount 23 Sinai, made mistakes and actually admitted 24 that they did, right? 25 MR. LANIER: Objection. 100 (Pages 446 to 449) Golkow Technologies, Inc. - 1.877.370.DEPS Frederick Pooley, Ph.D. Page 450 Page 452 1 Leading. 1 Q. And what is recognized here, 2 THE WITNESS: Yes. 2 and it's a lot o f information, a petition had 3 QUESTIONS BY MR. BICKS: 3 been made to ask that a warning be put on 4 Q. And were you actually one of 4 cosmetic talc, and this is around the time 5 the people who was called in to actually 5 1986. 6 point out that mistakes were made? 6 Do you see that? 7 MR. LANIER: Objection. 7 A. Yeah. 8 Leading. 8 Q. And the FDA writes and it says, 9 THE WITNESS: No, I wasn't - 1 9 "Your petition has not persuaded us that the 10 wasn't called in, but, yeah. 10 cosmetic talc that is presently being 11 QUESTIONS BY MR. BICKS: 11 produced contains significant amounts of 12 Q. You played a part? 12 asbestiform minerals. During the early 13 A. I played a part, yeah. 13 1970s, FDA became concerned about the 14 Q. All right. 14 possibility that cosmetic talc did contain 15 MR. LANIER: Objection. 15 significant amounts of this material. The 16 Leading. 16 agency received several reports about such 17 QUESTIONS BY MR. BICKS: 17 contamination. However, at that time, the 18 Q. You were asked about the 18 analytical procedures for determining 19 Vermont mine and you were cross-examined 19 asbestos in talc were not fully developed." 20 saying, ah, you found actinolite. 20 And you were part o f that 21 Remember that? 21 process in the '70s, right? 22 A. Yes. 22 MR. LANIER: Objection. 23 Q. And when we looked at actually 23 Leading. 24 what you found, the actinolite was 24 THE WITNESS: Yes. 25 non-asbestiform, right? 25 Page 451 Page 453 1 A. That's correct, yeah. 1 QUESTIONS BY MR. BICKS: 2 Q. So you saw actinolite, but it 2 Q. All right. Did you come to the 3 was not asbestiform, right? 3 FDA and talk about your work? 4 A. No. 4 A. Yes. 5 MR. LANIER: Objection. 5 Q. And, in fact, do you remember 6 Leading. 6 were your reports given to the FDA? 7 (Pooley Exhibit 61 marked for 7 A. Yes. 8 identification.) 8 Q. And it says here that the FDA 9 QUESTIONS BY MR. BICKS: 9 considered all analytical results to be of 10 Q. All right. And in terms of 10 questionable reliability. 11 what -- the questions of what the issues were 11 Remember that? 12 with some of the testing that was going on, I 12 A. Yes. 13 want to show you Exhibit 61. 13 Q. And did that include, to your 14 You know what, let me have that 14 recollection, the work that Lewin and Langer 15 one back because --sorry about that. 15 had did --done at that time? 16 Do you have a copy? Here 16 MR. LANIER: Objection. 17 we'll --this is Exhibit 61. 17 Speculation. 18 And this is from the acting 18 THE WITNESS: Yes. 19 Associate Commissioner for Regulatory Affairs 19 MR. LANIER: Leading. 20 of the FDA. 20 QUESTIONS BY MR. BICKS: 21 Do you See that? Somebody 21 Q. Well, based --you were there 22 named Swanson? 22 as a fact witness, right? 23 Do you see that on the third 23 A. That's right. 24 page? 24 MR. LANIER: Objection. 25 A. Third page. Oh, yes. 25 101 (Pages 450 to 453) Golkow Technologies, Inc. - 1.877.370.DEPS Frederick Pooley, Ph.D. Page 454 Page 456 1 QUESTIONS BY MR. BICKS: 1 Do you see that? 2 Q. And this assessment proved to 2 A. Yes. 3 be correct because many questions were 3 Q. And what does this tell us 4 subsequently raised about results reported in 4 about whether or not Italian 00000 and 5 the literature in the early 1970s, right? 5 Vermont satisfied this concentration method? 6 Do you remember that, that 6 A. That there was no chrysotile to 7 there were questions raised? 7 indicate, as it were, by his technique. 8 A. Yes. 8 Q. Yeah. 9 Q. And in part, that's one of the 9 You were also asked questions 10 reasons that you engaged in years of testing 10 about Val Chisone. 11 and over a hundred different tests, right? 11 Remember that booklet? 12 A. Yes. 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. All right. Now, you were also 13 Q. And I want you to actually - 14 asked about this concentration method. 14 as a scientist, what do you make of --when 15 Do you remember that? 15 you look at kind of comparing science to 16 A. Yes. 16 things that are more focused on marketing, 17 Q. Did you have ideas for a 17 what do you find is more reliable? 18 concentration method that you had worked on? 18 A. The science. 19 A. Yes, we did sort of experiment 19 Q. Yeah. 20 a little to see if we could improve the 20 And so let me actually show you 21 detection limit of the XRD techniques. 21 a little bit about some information about 22 Q. And did it turn out to be 22 this booklet. 23 something that was successful? 23 (Pooley Exhibit 63 marked for 24 A. But it didn't improve results 24 identification.) 25 to a great extent, let's put it that way. 25 MR. LANIER: What's the source Page 455 Page 457 1 Q. What about how did it compare 1 on this? 2 to, for example, TEM? 2 MR. BICKS: It's a Johnson & 3 A. Well, you concentrate to 3 Johnson document. 4 actually look at samples in the TEM. 4 MR. LANIER: I mean, who is it 5 (Pooley Exhibit 62 marked for 5 by? Do you know anything about it? 6 identification.) 6 MR. BECKER: It's signed. 7 QUESTIONS BY MR. BICKS: 7 MR. BICKS: Ashton. 8 Q. Let me show you Exhibit 62, and 8 MR. LANIER: Who is that? 9 do you see this is a memo you prepared, 9 MR. BICKS: He was head of the 10 right? 10 talc business at Johnson & Johnson. 11 A. Yes. 11 Unfortunately, he's not alive. 12 Q. And it talks about 12 QUESTIONS BY MR. BICKS: 13 concentration of chrysotile asbestos, right? 13 Q. You see here where -- 14 A. Sure. Yes. 14 MR. LANIER: Exhibit number? 15 Q. And if you actually look at 15 MR. BICKS: What's that? 16 this and go to the end, look at what the 16 MR. LANIER: Exhibit number? 17 conclusion was: "In our laboratory we are 17 MS. NOONAN: 63. 18 now subjecting samples to these tests for 18 QUESTIONS BY MR. BICKS: 19 indication of chrysotile asbestos." 19 Q. --that there's reference that 20 Do you see that? 20 the CVS publication was the brainchild of 21 A. Yeah. 21 Mr. Gianfranco, the son o f the owner, and 22 Q. And it says, "Tests on the 22 that "he was preparing the booklet for two 23 Italian 00000 talc alone have been shown to 23 years and had his heart set on the idea that 24 be negative and one test on a single Vermont 24 it would raise his personal reputation and 25 sample has also been negative." 25 talc and business to new heights. He had 102 (Pages 454 to 457) Golkow Technologies, Inc. - 1.877.370.DEPS Frederick Pooley, Ph.D. Page 458 Page 460 1 been following the talc asbestos controversy 1 that happened 40 to 50 years ago, right? 2 but only from disconnected pieces which came 2 A. That's correct. 3 to him through his agent in England or from 3 Q. To come talk to this jury, do 4 J&J staff. He figured that he has the best 4 you think it's a good idea for you to look at 5 talc in the world and other talcs had a lot 5 documents that took place 40 to 50 years ago 6 of asbestos in them, so he would capitalize 6 so you could be here and be knowledgeable 7 on the matter by putting out his booklet 7 about work that you did? 8 which would force others to say his talc, 8 A. Oh, yes. 9 find his was better, and thereby put him in a 9 Q. You were asked questions about 10 position to hold the top place in the 10 are you an epidemiologist or a pathologist or 11 high-grade market." 11 a whole series of things. 12 Do you see that? 12 Remember those questions? 13 A. Yes. 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. Does that shed a little bit of 14 Q. Does that have anything to do 15 knowledge about this booklet and whether or 15 with the testing work that you did? 16 not somebody in your field would be looking 16 A. No. Huh-uh. 17 at it? 17 Q. And Mr. Lanier asked whether 18 A. Yeah. It was definitely not a 18 you were a geologist because I might have 19 scientific reference. 19 misspoke and called you a geologist instead 20 MR. LANIER: Objection. 20 of a mineralogist, right? 21 Leading. Speculation. 21 A. Yes. 22 QUESTIONS BY MR. BICKS: 22 Q. So I apologize that I did that. 23 Q. And in looking at this and 23 You're a mineralogist, not a geologist, 24 seeing that booklet, does that in any way 24 right? 25 have any impact on the years and years of 25 A. Yes. Page 459 Page 461 1 testing that you did on talc in Italy and 1 Q. Does a mineralogist come in 2 talc in Vermont? 2 contact with principles of geology? 3 A. No, none at all. 3 A. All the time. 4 Q. Now, there was a lot of 4 Q. All right. And have you taken 5 questions asked to you about prior testimony 5 classes and probably taught them -- 6 that you gave in asbestos cases. 6 A. Yes. 7 Do you remember that? 7 Q. --on geology? 8 A. Yes. 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. And does that testimony you 9 Q. All right. You were asked 10 gave in asbestos cases have anything to do 10 questions about your deposition you gave 11 with the testing work that you did for 11 yesterday where you said that there was no 12 Johnson & Johnson? 12 asbestos in talc deposits. 13 A. No. 13 Remember that? 14 Q. You were also asked about 14 A. Yes. 15 whether or not you spent time getting ready 15 Q. Those questions. 16 to testify. 16 Were you referring to the 17 Remember that? 17 deposits that we're dealing in this case 18 A. Yes. 18 with, which is Italy and Vermont? 19 Q. And it was a quibble o f one to 19 A. No. 20 two days -- 20 Q. Did you see any asbestos in 21 A. Yeah. 21 those deposits? 22 Q. ~ right? 22 A. No. 23 You're about to be 79? 23 Q. But you have found in other 24 A. Yes. 24 deposits, for example, I showed you an 25 Q. And we're talking about things 25 exhibit relating to a deposit in California 103 (Pages 458 to 461) Golkow Technologies, Inc. - 1.877.370.DEPS Frederick Pooley, Ph.D. Page 462 Page 464 1 where you did see some asbestos, right? 1 Are you familiar with that from 2 A. Sure. 2 your 50 years of testifying? 3 MR. LANIER: Objection. 3 MR. BICKS: Objection to the 4 Leading. 4 form. 5 THE WITNESS: Warm Springs, 5 THE WITNESS: Not really, no. 6 California, yes. 6 QUESTIONS BY MR. LANIER: 7 QUESTIONS BY MR. BICKS: 8 Q. Right. 7 Q. In other words, he said, you 8 know, was there -- the findings from MIT, 9 So the suggestion every time 9 Princeton, NIOSH, Harvard, he made a big 10 you look at something you're always going to 10 list, remember? 11 say there's no asbestos, is that fair? 11 A. Yes. 12 MR. LANIER: Objection. 12 Q. Okay. What was the MIT study? 13 Leading. 13 A. An examination of talc samples. 14 THE WITNESS: No. 14 Q- By whom? 15 QUESTIONS BY MR. BICKS: 15 A. I don't know the research 16 Q. All right. In any o f the 16 worker there. 17 questions that Mr. Lanier asked you over 17 Q. Okay. Was it an official MIT 18 those three to four hours, does it --does it 18 study, or was there some fellow who worked at 19 in any way impact any of the conclusions and 19 MIT? 20 the work you did 40 to 50 years ago? 20 A. I have no idea. 21 A. No, huh-uh. 22 Q. And after all that work, after 21 Q- And how many samples? 22 A. I have no idea. 23 looking at the materials that are before you, 23 Q. And where did he get them from? 24 McCrone's, Selikoff, MIT, Princeton, FDA, 24 A. J&J, I suppose. 25 Harvard, NIOSH, your own medical work that 25 Q- You suppose? Page 463 Page 465 1 you did studying animals, the rats, do you 1 A. Yeah. 2 believe that you did good work? 3 A. I hope so, yes. 2 Q. Don't suppose. You tell me 3 what you know. 4 Q. And do you believe that all the 4 A. No, I don't know where he got 5 testing that indicated that there's no 5 them from. 6 asbestos in Johnson & Johnson's talc are 6 7 conclusions that as you're sitting here today 7 Q. Okay. What testing technique? A. I don't know. 8 looking at all this material, do you stand by 8 Q- All right. How about 9 the work that you did? 9 Princeton, who was the fellow at Princeton? 10 A. Yes. 10 A. That was Brown, I think. I'm 11 Q. Thank you. 11 not sure. 12 And we know that you have a 12 Q. Brown? 13 plane to catch. What time is your plane? 13 A. Brown, yeah. 14 A. Well, I better be there by half 14 Q. Or Burton? 15 past 7. 15 A. Brown. 16 MR. BICKS: All right. 16 Q. Brown. 17 MR. LANIER: I'll do the best I 17 And what technique did he use? 18 can. I got to cover things. 18 A. I don't know. 19 RECROSS-EXAMINATION 19 Q. And who gave him the samples? 20 QUESTIONS BY MR. LANIER: 20 A. I would assume J&J. 21 Q. Sir, I want to understand 21 Q. Don't assume. We want to know 22 something here. Mr. Bicks asked you a lot of 22 what you know. 23 questions that were what we call leading 23 A. I don't know. 24 questions, where he would put the answer into 24 25 the question itself. 25 Q. And how many? A. I don't know. 104 (Pages 462 to 465) Golkow Technologies, Inc. 1.877.370.DEPS Frederick Pooley, Ph.D. Page 466 Page 468 1 Q. And was it him alone? 1 QUESTIONS BY MR. LANIER: 2 A. I don't know. 2 Q. Did you tell them that J&J had 3 Q. In whose lab? 3 a right to tell you whether or not you can go 4 A. Princeton, I suppose. 4 even talk to them? 5 Q. And who funded it? 6 A. I don't know. 5 A. No. 6 Q. You never disclosed any of your 7 Q. And the Harvard study, who is 7 conflict? 8 it by? 8 Did you not know that the FDA 9 A. I think it was Berger. I'm not 9 was relying upon you and might see you as a 10 sure. 10 neutral? 11 Q. And how much -- you don't know, 11 12 but who gave the samples? 12 A. No. MR. BICKS: Objection. 13 A. I don't know. 13 QUESTIONS BY MR. LANIER: 14 Q. How many? 15 A. I don't know. 14 Q. Did you not know that when the 15 FDA does the write-ups like Mr. Bicks said, 16 Q. What technique? 16 that said, "Hey, we investigated and found 17 A. I don't know. 17 out that since the '70s there hasn't been any 18 Q. Was it good science? Bad 19 science? 18 asbestos in talc," that they were relying 19 upon people like you? 20 A. I have no idea. 20 A. Uh-huh. 21 Q. And next you also said that you 21 22 went to the FDA yourself and gave the FDA 22 Q. Did you know that? A. No. 23 your results; is that right? 23 Q. Just from a perspective of 24 You personally went? 24 integrity, if we get back on integrity road, 25 A. Yes, C Street, Washington. 25 disclosure is important for scientific Page 467 Page 469 1 Yes. 1 studies, right? 2 Q. Yeah. '3 Did you tell the FDA that you 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. I mean, The Tobacco Institute, 4 were being paid by Johnson & Johnson? 4 you're aware of the fact that a lot of 5 A. No. 5 leading publications will no longer even 6 Q. And that Johnson --no? 7 A. No. 6 publish something funded by the tobacco 7 companies, right? 8 Q. You did not disclose your 9 conflict of interest to the FDA? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. That's not something new; 10 A. It wasn't --it was a reporting 10 disclosure has been important in academia and 11 meeting. 11 science for a long time, hadn't it? 12 Q- No. I said: Did you disclose 12 A. I don't know. 13 your -- 13 Q. Transparency, you're familiar 14 A. No. 14 with that word? 15 Q. --conflict of interest that 16 you were being paid by J&J? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. You were not transparent with 17 A. No. 17 the FDA on who funded all of your work and 18 Q- Did you tell them that J&J had 19 a right by contract to affect your material 18 who was paying you to do it, were you? 19 A. No. 20 and how you wrote it up and how you reported 20 Q. Next. Mr. Bicks said you've 21 it? 21 been talking about things that happened 40 to 22 A. No. 22 50 years and you need to refresh your mind. 23 MR. BICKS: Objection to the 23 A. Uh-huh. 24 form. 24 Q. Okay. But the truth is the 25 25 truth and science is the science, isn't it? 105 (Pages 466 to 469) Golkow Technologies, Inc. - 1.877.370.DEPS Frederick Pooley, Ph.D. Page 470 Page 472 1 A. Yes. 1 margins. Remember that chart of all -- 2 Q. I mean, what I was fussing with 2 A. Yes. 3 you about is the fact that your opinion seems 3 Q. --these people giving him a 4 to change over the years based upon who is 4 clean bill of health. 5 paying you? 5 A. Yeah. 6 MR. BICKS: Objection to the 6 Q. I'm calling that his "no 7 form. 7 asbestos chart." 8 QUESTIONS BY MR. LANIER: 8 Are you with me? 9 Q. You realize that was my fuss? 9 A. Yes. 10 A. Yeah. 10 Q. O f course, that's only as good 11 Q. And then what the company does 11 as the tests are? 12 to get you ready is they cherry-pick their 12 A. Yes. 13 information and data to give you, didn't 13 Q. We need to look at the tests to 14 they? 14 see if they were using a sophisticated scale. 15 MR. BICKS: Objection to the 15 Can't weigh paperclips on a bathroom scale, 16 form. 16 right? 17 THE WITNESS: I was introduced 17 A. Yeah. 18 to data that I hadn't seen before, 18 Q. You didn't look at those tests 19 yes. 19 carefully, did you? 20 QUESTIONS BY MR. LANIER: 20 A. No. 21 Q. Yeah. 21 Q. And we know that what Mr. Bicks 22 That the company handpicked, 22 is telling you isn't accurate anyway. 23 didn't they? 23 Did you know that? 24 A. I don't know. 24 A. I had no idea. 25 Q. I mean, you didn't know about 25 Q. He said to you, "McCrone's Page 471 Page 473 1 this Harvard study before you met with him 1 15 years, never found any asbestos," 2 the other day, did you? 2 remember? 3 A. No. No. 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. You didn't know about MIT 4 Q. But I already showed you the 5 before you met with him the other day, did 5 McCrone's exhibit that said "don't use it," 6 you? 6 they're going to replace it by another 7 A. No. 7 version, where they did say that they found 8 Q. Princeton, didn't know about 8 tremolite, less than .5 percent, Johnson & 9 that? 9 Johnson's baby powder. 10 A. No. 10 Do you see that? 11 Q. Didn't know about NIOSH? 11 A. Yes. 12 A. No. 12 Q. So this idea that McCrone's in 13 Q. And he was selective in what he 13 15 years never found anything, bam? 14 showed you, wasn't he? 14 A. Uh-huh. 15 MR. BICKS: Objection to the 15 Q. So Mr. Bicks needs to consider 16 form. 16 when he's writing his things down for you and 17 THE WITNESS: No. 17 the jury that he needs to be accurate. 18 QUESTIONS BY MR. LANIER: 18 An engineer wants accuracy, 19 Q. Do you-all use that 19 right? 20 cherry-picking over in England? 20 A. Uh-huh. 21 A. Not really, no. 21 Q. Yes? 22 Q. And then Mr. Bicks does this 22 A. Yes. 23 chart where he goes down and starts on 23 Q. And then Mr. Bicks still didn't 24 page 1, goes to page 2, gets to 11 and 24 go through that whole list of things that the 25 whatever it was, starts writing in the 25 company's witness, Mr. Hopkins, has had to 106 (Pages 470 to 473) Golkow Technologies, Inc. - 1.877.370.DEPS Frederick Pooley, Ph.D. Page 474 Page 476 1 admit has revealed the presence of asbestos 1 left out ~ look, it only goes up to 1976? 2 in Johnson & Johnson products and mines. 2 A. Yeah. 3 1970 - 3 Q. 1977, January 1977, you wrote a 4 MR. BICKS: Objection. 4 letter to Rolle saying that you'd found 5 QUESTIONS BY MR. LANIER: 5 fibers and antigorite, right? 6 Q. 1971, he didn't cover this with 6 MR. BICKS: Objection to the 7 you, did he? 7 form. 8 MR. BICKS: Objection to the 8 QUESTIONS BY MR. LANIER: 9 form. 9 Q. Doesn't have that on there, 10 THE WITNESS: No. 10 does he? 11 QUESTIONS BY MR. LANIER: 11 A. No. 12 Q. In fact, what he did is he gave 12 MR. BICKS: Objection to the 13 you and the jury a very selective timeline of 13 form. 14 talc testing for Dr. Pooley. 14 QUESTIONS BY MR. LANIER: 15 Do you see that? 15 Q. Doesn't, does he? 16 A. Yes. 16 A. No. 17 Q. And he left out the 1973 where 17 Q. No. 18 you found actinolite. Doesn't have that on 18 And if you go back to his thing 19 here, does he? 19 of McCrone for 15 years, he doesn't have 20 MR. BICKS: That is on there. 20 McCrone's Windsor finding in 1978 of 21 QUESTIONS BY MR. LANIER: 21 chrysotile fibers and fibrous tremolite; he 22 Q. Does he? 22 doesn't have McCrone in 1980 finding 23 I can't find it. Do you see 23 chrysotile; he doesn't have McCrone in 1980 24 it? 24 finding another chrysotile; McCrone in '83 25 A. No. 25 finding fibers; McCrone in '84 finding Page 475 Page 477 1 Q. Left out the McCrone finding 2 chrysotile in '74, doesn't he? 3 MR. BICKS: Objection to the 4 form. 5 QUESTIONS BY MR. LANIER: 6 Q. It's not on here, is it? 7 MR. BICKS: That's all his 8 work. That's all I put on the chart. 9 QUESTIONS BY MR. LANIER: 10 Q. It's not on here, is it, sir? 11 A. No. No. 12 Q. In fact, he doesn't have the 13 work of all o f the different folks that have 14 found tons of different studies and 15 opportunities to find asbestos? 16 MR. BICKS: Objection to the 17 form. 18 QUESTIONS BY MR. LANIER: 19 Q. It's not in here, is it? 20 MR. BICKS: Objection to the 21 form. 22 THE WITNESS: No, I think they 23 only relate to my studies. 24 QUESTIONS BY MR. LANIER: 25 Q. Well, even that, though, he 1 chrysotile fibers; McCrone in '85 finding 2 chrysotile fibers; McCrone in '86 finding 3 chrysotile fibers; McCrone in '86 finding 4 some other fellow exposed to fibers; J&J to 5 Miller finding tremolite in '87; the Colorado 6 finding of mines of tremolite and fibrous 7 talc. 8 Doesn't have any of that, did 9 he? 10 MR. BICKS: Objection to the 11 form. 12 THE WITNESS: No. 13 QUESTIONS BY MR. LANIER: 14 Q. None of this made his list. 15 I've got boxes over here of positive findings 16 that the jury will have seen. 17 He didn't give you any o f this 18 in his cherry-picked data, did he? 19 MR. BICKS: Objection to the 20 form. 21 QUESTIONS BY MR. LANIER: 22 Q. I mean, he didn't give you 23 1948 - going back to 1948 the finding of 24 minerals in asbestos, did he? 25 MR. BICKS: Objection to the 107 (Pages 474 to 477) Golkow Technologies, Inc. - 1.877.370.DEPS Frederick Pooley, Ph.D. Page 478 Page 480 1 form. 1 tremolite was located. 2 THE WITNESS: No. 2 QUESTIONS BY MR. LANIER: 3 QUESTIONS BY MR. LANIER: 3 Q. But was not asbestiform in 4 Q. He didn't give you the finding 4 character? 5 of asbestos minerals - we'll shoot forward 5 A. No. 6 in time ~ 1985, McCrone, Windsor, they find 6 Q. And has not been detected in 7 samples, 1.5 fibers counted in samples. 7 talc imported to Great Britain. 8 Didn't tell you about that one, 8 Do you see that? 9 did he? 9 A. Yes. 10 MR. BICKS: Objection to the 10 Q. But we've got Exhibit 10, which 11 form. 11 is your report, and if he's reading your 12 THE WITNESS: No. 12 report on the very back, Fred Pooley, that's 13 QUESTIONS BY MR. LANIER: 13 not what it says, is it? 14 Q. Didn't tell you about McCrone, 14 A. Uh-huh. 15 November 6, 1980, where they found asbestos 15 Q. Mr. Bicks has inadequately 16 fibers, chrysotile fibers? 16 quoted this report. "Particles formed from 17 MR. BICKS: Objection to the 17 the amphophile mineral found at the mine were 18 form. 18 hardly fibrous." 19 THE WITNESS: No. 19 A. Yeah. 20 QUESTIONS BY MR. LANIER: 20 Q. "The majority broke to give 21 Q. He cherry-picked the data for 21 compact particles." They got too small. 22 you and the jury hoping that everybody would 22 Doesn't mean all of them did, does it? 23 fall asleep and not try to look at the rest 23 MR. BICKS: Objection to the 24 of the data. 24 form. 25 That's not right to do, is it? 25 Page 479 Page 481 1 MR. BICKS: Objection to the 1 QUESTIONS BY MR. LANIER: 2 form. 2 Q. Doesn't mean all of them did, 3 QUESTIONS BY MR. LANIER: 3 does it? 4 Q. You ought to consider all the 4 A. Nope. 5 data, right? 5 Q. So he didn't quote it here, but 6 A. Oh, sure. Yeah. 6 you found tremolite that was asbestiform that 7 Q. I mean, the Val Chisone report, 7 didn't break apart, didn't you? 8 you found tremolite in Val Chisone. That's 8 MR. BICKS: Objection to the 9 not on the timeline, is it? 9 form. 10 It says, "The massive talc is 10 THE WITNESS: Yes. A few 11 exceptionally pure." 11 particles, yes. 12 A. Yes. 12 QUESTIONS BY MR. LANIER: 13 Q. Where does it say on the 13 Q. Yeah. 14 timeline you found asbestos tremolite? 14 And again, this shouldn't be 15 MR. BICKS: It says it right at 15 about cherry-picking. This should just be 16 the top. 16 about, be honest, be up front, tell the 17 MR. LANIER: Oh, he's talking 17 truth, right? 18 about this right here, 1972? Is that 18 MR. BICKS: Objection to the 19 is it, Mr. Bicks? 19 form. 20 MR. BICKS: I can't see it from 20 THE WITNESS: Yes. 21 where I am, but -- 21 QUESTIONS BY MR. LANIER: 22 MR. LANIER: It's right up 22 Q. And then you were asked about 23 there. 23 whether or not some of this work was done 24 That's your claim? 24 that was done by litigation. 25 MR. BICKS: Yeah, some 25 You don't know what work was 108 (Pages 478 to 481) Golkow Technologies, Inc. - 1.877.370.DEPS Frederick Pooley, Ph.D. Page 482 Page 484 1 done by litigation and what wasn't unless you 1 QUESTIONS BY MR. LANIER: 2 did it, fair? 2 Q. Which means it's a - it's 3 A. No. 3 asbestos but a different size? 4 Q. You don't know whether it was 4 A. No, it's -- 5 done to sell the product successfully or not? 5 Q. It's an asbestos mineral? 6 A. No. 6 A. It's tremolite, yeah. 7 Q. You're just answering his 7 Q. Which is an asbestos mineral? 8 questions? 8 A. Yeah, which occurs in a 9 A. Yes. 9 nonfibrous - 10 Q. And when you were asked with 10 Q. By nonfibrous you mean a 11 reference to Exhibit Number 4, did you reach 11 different size? 12 a conclusion about whether or not there was 12 A. Different shape and et cetera, 13 any asbestos in the samples you looked at at 13 yeah. 14 Vermont, you said there was no visible 14 Q. Yeah, that's the size. 15 asbestos material in the rock -- 15 Different length, different 16 A. Yes. 16 width, right? 17 Q. - right? 17 A. Yeah. Fair enough. 18 Well, you're not going to see 18 Q. And so it's a different size 19 asbestos fibers with the eye, are you? 19 than you think is dangerous regardless of 20 A. Yes, you can. 20 what American Cancer Society, International 21 Q. You can see an individual 21 Agency for the Research of Cancer, World 22 asbestos fiber with the eye? 22 Health Organization, FDA, CDC, NIOSH, all 23 A. No, but you see groups of them. 23 those other organizations, you think that 24 Q. I mean, you have - you can't 24 it's not dangerous? 25 even use a normal microscope. 25 A. No. Page 483 Page 485 1 A. Oh, okay. 2 Q. Can you? 3 A. What's a normal microscope? 4 Q. A light microscope. 5 A. Oh, I see. 6 Q. You can't see an asbestos fiber 7 like that, can you? 8 A. With a light microscope? 9 Q. Right. 10 A. No. 11 Q. Much less with your eye? 12 A. No. 13 Q. And then we did find some 14 amphophile material in the rock, but it 15 wasn't asbestiform. 16 What you found was tremolite, 17 didn't you? 18 A. Yes. I think it was, yeah. 19 Q. And then you just thought it 20 was a different size than you believe is 21 dangerous, right? 22 MR. BICKS: Objection to the 23 form. 24 THE WITNESS: It wasn't 25 asbestiform. 1 Q. And so you don't call it 2 asbestos, right? 3 A. No. I wouldn't call it 4 asbestos, no. 5 Q. No, what? 6 A. I said no. 7 Q. Why? What did I say wrong? 8 A. Nothing. 9 Q. Okay. If we go back and look 10 at your letter, Exhibit Number 8, in this you 11 found tremolite, didn't you? 12 A. Yeah. 13 Q. You just said: "It's not the 14 right shape; it might be .29 instead o f .30," 15 right? 16 A. Yep. 17 Q. Exhibit 11, you found asbestos, 18 and it's back here. Tremolite, actinolite, 19 you found it in one of the samples given to 20 you by the company, didn't you? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. EPA, 1976, Exhibit 14, this was 23 that hard to read one. 24 Lewin found asbestos in Johnson 25 & Johnson product, didn't he? 109 (Pages 482 to 485) Golkow Technologies, Inc. - 1.877.370.DEPS Frederick Pooley, Ph.D. Page 486 Page 488 1 A. He said he did, yes. 2 Q. I mean, he reported it? 3 A. Sure. Okay. 4 Q. You didn't find it? 5 A. No. 6 Q. But he did? 7 A. Yeah. 8 Q. Kind of a question o f how hard 9 are you looking? 10 A. Huh. 11 Q. What technique are you using, 12 right? 13 A. Yeah. 14 Q. Exhibit 16, you found tremolite 15 in California talc, didn't you? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. And we still go back to my 18 point about testing and scales. You got to 19 use the right test variation. I mean, you 20 can find something that's true, but if it's 21 not the whole truth, it's a lie, fair? 22 A. I don't understand what you 23 mean. 24 Q. Well, let me give you an 25 example. I'll give you a document from 1 A. Yeah. 2 Q. --"on the conference call 3 concerning our asbestos-free policy. We 4 clearly need to gather more data to help us 5 map our true position" - 6 Do you see where I'm reading? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. - "regarding developing the 9 Luzenac policy on this issue. The analogy 10 with World Health Organization drinking water 11 standards may be useful, as might toxic 12 metals in food like mercury in tuna, i.e., 13 free," like asbestos-free, "means below a 14 certain concentration and not absolutely 15 absent." 16 Do you see where I'm reading 17 that? 18 A. Yeah. 19 MR. BICKS: Objection to the 20 form and the use of the document. 21 QUESTIONS BY MR. LANIER: 22 Q. The idea that something is 23 asbestos-free is something that you-all and 24 the miners are talking about being below a 25 certain concentration as opposed to Page 487 Page 489 1 Luzenac, which is the mine company here. 1 absolutely absent. 2 We'll mark this document as Exhibit 2 Do you see that? 3 Number 64. 3 MR. BICKS: Objection to the 4 (Pooley Exhibit 64 marked for 4 form. 5 identification.) 5 MR. BECKER: Object to the 6 QUESTIONS BY MR. LANIER: 6 form. 7 Q. You understand that Johnson & 7 QUESTIONS BY MR. LANIER: 8 Johnson at times bought their stuff from 8 Q. Do you see it? 9 other companies, right? 9 A. Yeah. 10 A. Yes. 10 Q. Look at this line: "My father 11 Q. Their talc? 11 often told me I was a master of the 12 A. Yeah. 12 half-truth, but he didn't mean it as a 13 Q. All right. So here we've got 13 compliment. However, selection and spinning 14 the Imerys defendant now is the name that 14 are essential elements of corporate as well 15 they go by talking about talc and asbestos in 15 as any other type of storytelling." 16 2000. 16 Do you see that? 17 Do you see this? 17 A. Yes. 18 A. Yeah. 18 MR. BICKS: Objection to the 19 Q. "Your whimsical suggestions 19 form. 20 would certainly be very entertaining if they 20 MR. BECKER: Objection. 21 didn't go to the heart of the problem so 21 QUESTIONS BY MR. LANIER: 22 much. I like your best bon mot" - 22 Q. Yeah, this idea that, "Oh, 23 Do you know what that means? 23 well, we'll pull out studies that show no 24 A. Yeah, good word. 24 asbestos" --by the way, Luzenac, did you 25 Q. Your good word? 25 know Imerys, that they were supplying J&J 110 (Pages 486 to 489) Golkow Technologies, Inc. - 1.877.370.DEPS Frederick Pooley, Ph.D. Page 490 Page 492 1 with talc? 2 A. No. 3 Q. Yeah. 4 And here's where we get back to 5 the scales. The bathroom scales are not 6 going to register the paperclip; they're not 7 sensitive enough, right? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. So the company and their 10 different folks they hire, you can always 11 find someone, depending upon the testing 12 they're going to use, who is going to say 13 something is asbestos-free reasonably, 14 wouldn't you agree, if they don't use the 15 right technique? 16 MR. BICKS: Objection to the 17 form. 18 MR. BECKER: Objection. 19 THE WITNESS: Yes, if they're 20 not capable of doing the work - 21 QUESTIONS BY MR. LANIER: 22 Q. Uh-huh. 23 A. --correctly. 24 Q. So within the framework o f this 25 then, here's where I'm a little troubled. If 1 university and the British government. 2 Q. Weil, Johnson & Johnson is 3 paying the money to the university? 4 A. No, not continuously. We had 5 support for certain pieces of work. 6 Q. Yeah. 7 A. There wasn't a continuous flow 8 of cash coming from Johnson & Johnson into 9 the university. 10 Q. Sir, you've testified before, 11 I'll pull it out, but you've got retained by 12 Johnson & Johnson many times as a consultant 13 where they paid you. 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. All right. Don't pretend that 16 you never got paid by them. 17 You're under oath, right? 18 A. Yeah. 19 MR. BICKS: Objection to the 20 form. 21 QUESTIONS BY MR. LANIER: 22 Q. So when you look at these 23 results and you wind up saying in Exhibit 18, 24 for example, Johnson's baby powder, Pooley 25 says nondetected, you weren't able to detect Page 491 Page 493 1 we look at the Langer test - first of all, 1 it? 2 do you know what CTFA stands for? 2 A. No. 3 A. Cosmetic and Toilet Federation, 3 Q. But Langer found it, didn't he? 4 I think. 4 A. Well, he said he did. 5 Q. Uh-huh. 5 Q. Well, you and everybody - when 6 Langer actually did find 6 you're talking to Mr. Bicks, these are 7 Johnson & Johnson baby powder with asbestos 7 wonderful people who were great and careful 8 in it. You're the one who retested it and 8 and really good. 9 re-looked at the results and you're the one 9 A. Uh-huh. 10 who said it's not there, right? 10 Q. But the whole idea o f the 11 MR. BICKS: Objection to the 11 Dr. Langer, you know, never - Mount Sinai 12 form. 12 never found and the head of Mount Sinai never 13 THE WITNESS: I have no idea. 13 found, and he writes it on his list. 14 QUESTIONS BY MR. LANIER: 14 No, you took the sample and you 15 Q. Well - 15 changed the results to a nondetect, but the 16 A. Yes. No, when I looked at his 16 original result by Dr. Langer shows something 17 samples, yeah. 17 very different, doesn't it? 18 Q. Yeah, you determined it wasn't. 18 A. No. 19 You just disagreed with him on 19 Q. Yeah. It shows tremolite and 20 whether or not it was asbestos in the Johnson 20 anthophyllite, and you have ND. 21 & Johnson product, right? 21 What does ND mean? 22 A. Yeah. 22 A. Well, you - ND, not detected. 23 Q. And, of course, you're getting 23 Q. Yeah, same thing happened with 24 paid by Johnson & Johnson? 24 Boots baby powder, Avon perfume talc? 25 A. I've been paid by the 25 A. Yeah. Ill (Pages 490 to 493) Golkow Technologies, Inc. - 1.877.370.DEPS Frederick Pooley, Ph.D. Page 494 Page 496 1 Q. Powder spray, face powder. 1 truth about this? 2 You can't find asbestos in any 2 MR. BICKS: Objection to the 3 of that, can you? 3 form. 4 A. No. 4 QUESTIONS BY MR. LANIER: 5 Q. So when that exhibit is used 5 Q. Did he tell you that? 6 and Mr. Bicks tries to tie in, you know, 6 A. No. 7 columns 4 ,1 8 ,9 , all the rest of those 7 Q. Before he told you the EPA said 8 numbers, that's your analysis; that's not 8 it was fine, the FDA said it was fine, did he 9 Dr. Langer's analysis, right? 9 tell you that they were relying upon Johnson 10 MR. BICKS: Objection to the 10 & Johnson to be honest with them and give 11 form. 11 them all the test results? 12 THE WITNESS: No. Well, my 12 Did they tell you that? 13 result was in that table. 13 A. No. 14 QUESTIONS BY MR. LANIER: 14 Q. Did he tell you that Mount 15 Q. Yeah. 15 Sinai never said that it was clean for J&J? 16 A. Next to Arthur's, yeah. 16 MR. BICKS: Objection to the 17 Q. Right. 17 form. 18 You're the one who said this is 18 THE WITNESS: No. 19 the --your report on the examination o f the 19 QUESTIONS BY MR. LANIER: 20 talc samples; it's not his? 20 Q. The Dutch and others did show 21 A. No. 21 Johnson & Johnson, he didn't write that down, 22 Q. Right? 22 did he? 23 A. Yep. 23 MR. BICKS: Objection to the 24 Q. And then as far as Johnson & 24 form. 25 Johnson didn't have asbestos in their talc, 25 THE WITNESS: Write it where? Page 495 Page 497 1 McCrone said they did? 1 QUESTIONS BY MR. LANIER: 2 MR. BICKS: Objection to the 2 Q. He never showed you any of the 3 form. 3 Dutch tests, did he? 4 QUESTIONS BY MR. LANIER: 4 A. No. 5 Q. More times than I can count. 5 Q. Didn't show you the tests that 6 Did you know that? 6 showed asbestos, did he? 7 A. No. 7 MR. BICKS: Objection to the 8 MR. BICKS: Objection to the 8 form. 9 form. 9 THE WITNESS: No. 10 QUESTIONS BY MR. LANIER: 10 QUESTIONS BY MR. LANIER: 11 Q. It's just Mr. Bicks never gave 11 Q. Didn't discuss with you the 12 you those, did he? Did he? 12 differing scales and what kind of scales and 13 He didn't show you that when he 13 tests were used by these various folks he's 14 was refreshing your memory for $300 an hour? 14 trying to say are reliable -- 15 A. The McCrone results? 15 MR. BICKS: Objection to the 16 Q. Right. 16 form. 17 A. Yeah. 17 QUESTIONS BY MR. LANIER: 18 Q. He didn't show you all of those 18 Q. ~ did he? 19 tests, did he? 19 A. No. 20 A. Not all of them, no. 20 Q. And then Exhibit 2, do you have 21 Q. No. 21 that? I can't find my copy. Exhibit 2, it's 22 He didn't --did he tell you 22 the one he just asked you about. Since the 23 that the government relied on self-reporting 23 early 1900s. It's been --he's done that 24 by industry, that our government relied on 24 twice now, and I need to deal with it. 25 industry to be honest and actually tell the 25 Exhibit 2, it's an article. 112 (Pages 494 to 497) Golkow Technologies, Inc. - 1.877.370.DEPS Frederick Pooley, Ph.D. Page 498 Page 500 1 With due respect to Mr. Bicks 1 Q. Then if we start looking at it, 2 and you, this is almost laughable the way 2 there's actually an indication in this 3 this is being used, isn't it? 3 article that if you're not looking at the 4 MR. BICKS: Objection to the 4 bulk samples but you're doing something 5 form. 5 smaller, you will find some asbestos, right? 6 THE WITNESS: I don't know. 6 A. I don't know, no. 7 QUESTIONS BY MR. LANIER: 7 Q. You don't know. 8 Q. "Since geological studies 8 Did you look at this article 9 dating from the early 1900s have shown 9 carefully or just - 10 Vermont talc deposits contain no asbestos." 10 A. No. I haven't read it in 11 A. Uh-huh. 11 detail, no. 12 Q. You got that? 12 Q. So when you're answering 13 A. Yeah, it's there. 13 questions about it, you're just taking 14 Q. Okay. So who was using an 14 Mr. Bicks' representation; is that right? 15 electron microscope in the early 1900s? 15 MR. BICKS: Objection to the 16 A. I have no idea. 16 form. 17 Q. Nobody. 17 THE WITNESS: No. No. You - 18 It hadn't been invented yet, 18 you led me through the introduction 19 had it? 19 quite nicely. 20 A. Oh, I see. No. 20 QUESTIONS BY MR. LANIER: 21 Q. Right? 21 Q. In fact, if you look at this, 22 A. Yeah. 22 this talks about this idea of a length to 23 Q. I mean, look, you're telling us 23 width ratio of 3 to 1 or greater - 24 don't believe results unless they use an 24 A. Yes. 25 electron microscope. 25 Q. --as an arbitrarily defined Page 499 Page 501 1 A. Sure. 1 fiber? 2 Q. Tell the jury when the electron 2 A. Sure. 3 microscope was first in widespread usage for 3 Q. It's just arbitrary? 4 doing tests like this. 4 A. Yeah. 5 A. I would say in the 1960s. 5 Q. Do you see that? 6 Q. Okay. So let's write off the 6 A. Yes. 7 early and mid-1900s and know that ~ 7 MR. BICKS: All right. We got 8 MR. BICKS: You're writing on 8 to really wrap it up. 9 the exhibit. 9 QUESTIONS BY MR. LANIER: 10 MR. LANIER: Oh, you're right. 10 Q. This talks about an inability 11 I apologize. That's not right. 11 to distinguish rolled talc particles and talc 12 Here's an extra copy, so we'll mark a 12 shards from actual asbestos fibers. 13 clean copy as Exhibit 2 that's 13 A. Yes. 14 unwritten on. Is that adequate, 14 Q. I mean, this isn't something 15 Peter? For some reason I thought I 15 where the jury should read this and say, "Oh, 16 had my own. 16 my gosh, they've known forever that there's 17 QUESTIONS BY MR. LANIER: 17 no asbestos in talc." 18 Q. So there's the Exhibit 2. 18 That's saying that the test 19 "Since geological studies," I mean, "contain 19 results haven't been adequate, isn't it? 20 no asbestos," that's a nothing burger. 20 MR. BICKS: Objection to the 21 MR. BICKS: Object to the form. 21 form. 22 QUESTIONS BY MR. LANIER: 22 QUESTIONS BY MR. LANIER: 23 Q. Until you get to the 1960s at 23 Q. True? 24 least, right? 24 A. Yes, that you overestimate. 25 A. Yeah. 25 Q. And then - 113 (Pages 498 to 501) Golkow Technologies, Inc. - 1.877.370.DEPS Frederick Pooley, Ph.D. Page 502 Page 504 1 A. Fibrous materials. 1 lungs just recognize it's asbestos by its 2 Q. All right. Next. He said the 2 size and shape. 3 American Cancer Society says that talc is 3 A. Yes. 4 free of asbestos, Exhibit 59. 4 Q. When did you become a lung 5 Do you remember that? 5 doctor? 6 A. Yeah. 6 MR. BICKS: Objection to the 1 Q. Do you have any knowledge of 7 form. 8 whether or not the American Cancer Society 8 THE WITNESS: Oh, I look at 9 tested talc or relied upon what Johnson & 9 lung samples practically every week. 10 Johnson was telling them? 10 QUESTIONS BY MR. LANIER: 11 MR. BICKS: Objection to the 11 Q. That wasn't my question. 12 form. 12 When did you become a lung 13 THE WITNESS: No idea. 13 doctor? 14 QUESTIONS BY MR. LANIER: 14 A. What's a lung doctor? 15 Q. Because look what they say in 15 Q. A pulmonologist. It's a whole 16 Exhibit 59. They say, "Whether or not talcum 16 area of doctors. 17 powder is linked to cancer, it is important 17 A. Oh, sure. Yeah. I don't--as 18 to distinguish between talc that contains 18 far as I'm aware, pulmonologists are not 19 asbestos and talc that is asbestos-free." 19 involved in measuring minerals and deposition 20 A. Yes. 20 of particles in lungs. 21 Q. Now, when the companies like 21 Q. Actually, pulmonologists are 22 the mine here talks about, "We'll say it's 22 involved in determining what it is that the 23 asbestos-free if it just doesn't have so 23 lung has inhaled that is causing a cancer. 24 much," that would be important to tell the 24 Those are pulmonologists and 25 American Cancer Society, wouldn't it? 25 pulmo-oncologists. Page 503 Page 505 1 MR. BICKS: Objection to the 1 That's not you, though, is it? 2 form. 2 All right. And if we want to 3 MR. BECKER: Object to the 3 look at --next subject. Langer's real 4 form. 4 paper. 5 THE WITNESS: Yes. 5 We've got Langer's real paper. 6 QUESTIONS BY MR. LANIER: 6 We can see what Langer had to say. Langer 7 Q. Because talc that has asbestos 7 said things like "technique matters when 8 is generally accepted as being able to cause 8 you're trying to determine if there's 9 cancer if it's inhaled. 9 asbestos," right? 10 Do you see that? 10 A. Yep. 11 A. Yeah. 11 Q. Langer said, "If you use one 12 Q. And this idea this talc is not 12 technique, three samples of talc had 13 used in modem consumer products, that's 13 tremolite; in two o f these, tremolite's not 14 based on what the companies are saying. 14 detected by other means"? 15 Did you know that? 15 A. Uh-huh. 16 MR. BICKS: Objection to the 16 Q. Sort of makes you wonder why 17 form. 17 you can't detect it when he does, doesn't it? 18 THE WITNESS: No. 18 MR. BICKS: Objection to the 19 QUESTIONS BY MR. LANIER: 19 form. 20 Q. I mean, you have no evidence 20 THE WITNESS: Which technique 21 that the company --that the American Cancer 21 is he talking about there? 22 Society has tested these products, do you? 22 QUESTIONS BY MR. LANIER: 23 A. No. 23 Q. Well, I mean, you're the one 24 Q. And then you said something I 24 who was testifying about this paper through 25 found very interesting. You said that the 25 Mr. Bicks. 114 (Pages 502 to 505) Golkow Technologies, Inc. - 1.877.370.DEPS Frederick Pooley, Ph.D. Page 506 Page 508 1 This is the one where 1 Q. Do you have a clue whether they 2 supposedly you went back over because you hac 2 had an idea what they were talking about? 3 concerns about how he did it. 3 MR. BICKS: Objection to the 4 A. Yeah. 4 form. 5 Q. Do you even know how he did it? 5 THE WITNESS: No. 6 A. Yes. This is all by XRD data, 6 QUESTIONS BY MR. LANIER: 7 X-ray diffraction. 7 Q. Do you know if they were sober 8 Q. Right. 8 or not when they wrote it? 9 This study has demonstrated the 9 A. No. 10 presence in talc of anthophyllite, tremolite 10 Q. Do you know if they wrote it to 11 and serpentine minerals. 11 publish or if they wrote it to keep a job? 12 Those are asbestos minerals, 12 A. No idea. 13 aren't they? 13 Q. Next. Mr. Bicks pointed out 14 True? 14 you found actinolite, but it wasn't 15 A. No. They're not all asbestos, 15 asbestiform, as you call it. 16 no. You've got serpentine minerals, I don't 16 A. Yeah. 17 know what they are. 17 Q. That's the size and shape? 18 Q. Well, chrysotile is a 18 A. Yeah. 19 serpentine mineral. 19 Q. So you think that whether it's 20 A. Sure. 20 3 to 1 ratio makes a difference, right? 21 Q. But anthophyllite and tremolite 21 A. Yeah. 22 and chrysotile, those are asbestos, aren't 22 Q. But come on now, listen to me 23 they? 23 carefully, sir: Just because you find one of 24 A. He didn't report chrysotile, 24 the tremolite fibers, you know that there are 25 did he, in any of his specimens? 25 thousands more that you don't look at, right? Page 507 Page 509 1 Q. Okay. Fine. Take chrysotile 1 MR. BICKS: Objection to the 2 out. 2 form. 3 Anthophyllite and tremolite, 3 QUESTIONS BY MR. LANIER: 4 those are asbestos? 4 Q. When you find one in a grid, 5 In the interest o f time I'm not 5 that means that there are going to be 6 going to fight you over the rest of them, but 6 thousands more in the product, fair? 7 those are asbestos, aren't they? 7 A. Well, normally one would design 8 A. Okay. Yeah, they are. 8 the experimentation so that you detect more 9 Q. Next. The Dutch document. 9 than one. 10 Okay. This is Exhibit Number 60. 10 Q. Okay. You find five in the 11 Is this document that starts 11 grid? 12 with page 1 with a definition of asbestos, 12 A. Because one fiber, detecting 13 and it just starts going on into all of this 13 one fiber, is not a result. 14 stuff about the Dutch document and what the 14 Q. Okay. That's fine. Let's say 15 Dutch say. 15 five or ten. There are going to be thousands 16 A. Uh-huh. 16 more than that, aren't they? 17 Q. Have you ever seen this before 17 A. Yes, you have to obviously 18 in your life? 18 collect data then to demonstrate that. 19 A. No. 19 Q. Yeah. 20 MR. BICKS: Objection to the 20 But here's my point, sir: Not 21 form. 21 all are going to be the same size, some might 22 QUESTIONS BY MR. LANIER: 22 not meet your 3 to 1 ratio and others might? 23 Q. Do you have a clue who wrote 23 A. Yeah. 24 this? 24 Q. And you're not looking at even 25 A. No. 25 remotely all of the fibers, are you? 115 (Pages 506 to 509) Golkow Technologies, Inc. - 1.877.370.DEPS Frederick Pooley, Ph.D. Page 510 Page 512 1 MR. BICKS: Objection to the 1 Dr. Pooley, about whether or not your 2 form. 2 connection to Johnson & Johnson was known to 3 All right. Let's ~ it's six 3 the FDA? 4 o'clock. 4 A. Yes. 5 MR. LANIER: Okay. What do 5 Q. All right. This is a Johnson & 6 you -- what do you want? Do you want 6 Johnson document which is sending to the 7 to just quit now and I won't ask any 7 director of the Office of Product Technology 8 more and you won't ask any more? If 8 certain information, and do you see that 9 you want to do that, Peter, we'll quit 9 Johnson & Johnson is sending to the FDA your 10 now. 10 report? 11 It's up to you. I'll quit and 11 A. Yes. 12 you quit. 12 Q. Exhibit Number 4? 13 MR. BICKS: Because one o f the 13 A. Right. Yeah. 14 things you raised, I have to ask him 14 Q. All right. Does this indicate 15 one question. 15 that the FDA knows that you're working with 16 MR: LANIER: What one question 16 Johnson & Johnson? 17 do you have to ask him and I'll tell 17 A. Yes. 18 you if I have any more? 18 MR. BICKS: All right. 19 MR. BICKS: I've got to ask him 19 THE WITNESS: Samples supplied 20 about the FDA issue you raised. 20 by Johnson & Johnson. 21 MR. LANIER: Okay. All right. 21 FURTHER RECROSS-EXAMINATION 22 Hold on. Then I'm going to let you do 22 QUESTIONS BY MR. LANIER: 23 that. 23 Q. But in fairness, sir, it 24 QUESTIONS BY MR. LANIER: 24 doesn't say on here that they paid you to do 25 O- Oh, when did you start using a 25 it, does it? Page 511 Page 513 1 3 to 1 aspect ratio to define asbestos fiber? 1 A. Sorry. 2 A. That's the sort of standard 2 Q. It doesn't say on here that 3 international definition. 3 they paid you to do it? 4 Q. When did you start? '60s? 4 A. Well, I have to travel across 5 '70s? '80s? 5 the Atlantic. 6 A. I can't recall. 6 Q. That wasn't my question, sir. 7 Q. Litigation? 7 A. No. No. 8 A. No. 8 Q. I'm going to finish you in one 9 MR. BICKS: Objection to form. 9 minute if you'll answer my question. 10 MR. LANIER: Peter, do you want 10 It doesn't say J&J paid you to 11 to just grab a mic and do it there in 11 do it, does it? 12 the interest of time? 12 A. No. 13 MR. BICKS: Yeah. Yes. 13 Q. It does not say that J&J had 14 MR. LANIER: I'm going to pass 14 the right to edit your reports, does it? 15 the witness. I've got a couple more 15 MR. BICKS: Objection to the 16 questions, but I'm going to try not to 16 form. 17 ask them if Peter doesn't go outside 17 THE WITNESS: No. 18 of where he's going. And I can put it 18 QUESTIONS BY MR. LANIER: 19 on the Elmo if you want me to, Peter. 19 Q. It does not say that you had 20 If that helps you. 20 been working with J&J for quite some time in 21 (Pooley Exhibit 65 marked for 21 trying to do this, does it? 22 identification.) 22 MR. BICKS: Objection to the 23 FURTHER REDIRECT EXAMINATION 23 form. 24 QUESTIONS BY MR. BICKS: 24 QUESTIONS BY MR. LANIER: 25 Q. Here, you were asked, remember, 25 Q. Does it? 116 (Pages 510 to 513) Golkow Technologies, Inc. - 1.877.370.DEPS Frederick Pooley, Ph.D Page 514 Page 516 1 A. To do what? 1 INSTRUCTIONS TO WITNESS 2 Q. To do these tests. 2 3 A. No, it doesn't say - 3 Please read your deposition over 4 Q. It doesn't say that J&J viewed 4 carefully and make any necessary corrections. 5 one of your techniques as too sensitive? 5 You should state the reason in the 6 A. Uh-huh. 6 appropriate space on the errata sheet for any 7 Q. Does it? 7 corrections that are made. 8 A. No. 8 After doing so, please sign the 9 MR. BICKS: Objection to the 9 errata sheet and date it. You are signing 10 form. 10 same subject to the changes you have noted on 11 MR. LANIER: All right. Pass 11 the errata sheet, which will be attached to 12 the witness. We're done. Thank you. 12 your deposition. 13 VIDEOGRAPHER: This marks the 13 It is imperative that you return 14 end o f today's deposition. The time 14 the original errata sheet to the deposing 15 is 6:03 p.m. We're going o ff the 15 attorney within thirty (30) days of receipt 16 record. 16 of the deposition transcript by you. If you 17 (Deposition concluded at 6:03 p.m.) 17 fail to do so, the deposition transcript may 18 18 be deemed to be accurate and may be used in 19 19 court. 20 20 21 21 22 22 23 23 24 24 25 25 Page 515 Page 517 1 CERTIFICATE 2 3 I, CARRIE A. CAMPBELL, Registered Diplomate Reporter, Certified Realtime 4 Reporter and Certified Shorthand Reporter, do hereby certify that prior to the commencement 5 o f the examination, Frederick Pooley, Ph.D., was duly sworn by me to testify to die truth, 6 the whole truth and nothing but the truth. 7 I DO FURTHER CERTIFY that the foregoing is a verbatim transcript o f the 8 testimony as taken stenographically by and before me at the time, place and on the date 9 hereinbefore set forth, to the best o f my ability. 10 11 I DO FURTHER CERTIFY that I am neither a relative nor employee nor attorney nor counsel o f any o f the parties to this 12 action, and that I am neither a relative nor employee o f such attorney or counsel, and 13 that I am not financially interested in the action. 14 15 17 CARRIE A. CAMPBELL, NCRA Registered Diplomate Reporter 18 Certified Realtime Reporter California Certified Shorthand 19 Reporter #13921 Missouri Certified Court Reporter #859 20 Illinois Certified Shorthand Reporter #084-004229 21 Texas Certified Shorthand Reporter #9328 Kansas Certified Court Reporter #1715 22 Notary Public 23 Dated: February 9,2018 24 25 1 ACKNOWLEDGMENT OF DEPONENT 2 3 4 i,_ , do hereby certify that I have read the foregoing 5 pages and that the same is a correct transcription o f the answers given by me to 6 the questions therein propounded, except for the corrections or changes in form or 7 substance, if any, noted in the attached Errata Sheet. 8 9 10 11 12 Frederick Pooley, Ph.D. DATE 13 14 15 Subscribed and sworn to before me this 16 _______ day o f _________________ , 20 _ 17 My commission expires:_____________ 18 19 Notary Public 20 21 22 23 24 25 117 (Pages 514 to 517) Golkow Technologies, Inc. - 1.877.370.DEPS Frederick Pooley, Ph.D. Page 518 ERRATA 2 3 PAGE LINE CHANGE 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 519 LAWYER'S NOTES 2 3 PAGE LINE 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Golkow Technologies, Ine, 118 (Pages 518 to 519) 1.877.370.DEPS Frederick Pooley, Ph.D. Page 520 A abida 62:23 ability 96:14 515:9 able 85:10 88:11 88:23 228:1 278:20 299:1 324:21 325:1 327:20 390:17 395:8 404:25 439:21 492:25 503:8 absent 488:15 489:1 absolutely 488:14 489:1 academia 211:22 212:2 469:10 academic 71:7 214:1 370:12 393:18,22 , 395:5 396:8,9 405:25 academics 397:17 accept 275:19 289:16 accepted 231:5 439:21 503:8 access 96:15 116:20 188:23 accompanied 381:18 accomplish 136:1 accomplished 78:8 accuracy 473:18 accurate 229:12 472:22 473:17 516:18 achieved 383:9 acknowledgm... 64:3 517:1 act 319:23 acted 296:7,8 acting 63:9 451:18 actinolite 103:8 229:4 248:17 271:23,24 272:9,13,22 273:3,10 276:4 276:19 277:1 277:11 300:12 300:13,14,15 302:4 315:10 356:1 363:22 374:19 414:13 450:20,24 451:2 474:18 485:18 508:14 actinote 373:6 action 367:7 418:16 515:12 515:13 active 343:12 405:21 413:19 activity 178:11 178:22 343:17 actual 256:9 312:20 360:5 414:6 501:12 add 217:14 437:4 adding 183:9 440:7 addition 124:2 414:10 additional 134:10 address 191:7 adequate 329:13 499:14 501:19 administer 66:18 administration 171:12 admit 277:19 300:10 343:3 343:11 474:1 admitted 200:10 449:23 advance 123:2 advantageous 348:4 adverse 294:21 advertised 153:8 adverts 406:9 advisory 62:15 397:24 402:15 affairs 59:10 63:10 451:19 affect 187:25 211:15 331:21 335:3 385:7 406:6 467:19 afford 400:3 afraid 333:9 africa 72:10 94:17 afternoon 419:18 age 66:21 69:2 70:6 79:11 agencies 231:4 307:4 agency 77:7 314:23 359:19 359:22 360:7 452:16 484:21 agent381:14 458:3 aggregated 374:15 ago 82:18 210:18 269:20 415:7,10 460:1 460:5 462:20 agree 166:13 230:25 240:1 242:5 278:9 283:9 331:22 339:21 340:6 347:3 370:12 384:19,21 389:2 407:10 490:14 agreed 65:25 84:11 237:13 289:13 378:14 383:18 agreeing 65:21 agreement 71:3 383:10 384:25 385:4,21 agrees 235:23 406:15 ah 152:12 202:14 213:23 214:11 217:9 311:8 450:20 ahead 122:3 202:10 398:9 404:20 418:9 aims 334:5 air 251:17 al53:6 56:16 430:25 alabama 199:8 323:21 346:23 alike 365:16 alive 457:11 allegra 54:21 159:1 160:13 163:16 allowed 386:2 allows 320:7 alluded 152:21 alps 86:20 alston 55:1,2 altered 418:15 amendments 387:16 america392:19 american 59:23 61:18 62:20 63:5 78:14 158:21 279:17 282:8 361:3 363:10,13,19 396:5,17 413:7 413:16 438:24 439:8,14,22 440:9 445:20 484:20 502:3,8 | 502:25 503:21 1 amoco241:18 j amosite 248:16 j 249:20 342:9 1 356:1 363:21 j 413:18,20 amount 150:7 | 163:4 174:14 j 213:6 260:17 1 305:17 352:22 j 401:23 449:19 amounts 243:15 f 452:11,15 | amphibole ; 60:21 j amphibolitic 1 375:1 j amphophile j 88:19 89:2 93:21 94:3,9 94:10,18 97:25 98:22 101:18 102:4,8 103:5 j 103:12,22 104:19 105:3 1 108:23,25 109:10 130:15 1 130:24 135:9 j 139:3 159:9,16 ! 159:24 160:9 j 165:18 169:22 ! 228:13,15,18 228:21 229:9 229:18 244:11 244:16 247:4 J 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318:24 319:18 319:22 320:1,8 1 j 320:14 367:16 | 371:12 375:13 379:12 401:6 I 412:1 437:8 I 452:3 454:25 j 458:9 463:24 j 475:8 511:18 | putting 158:10 { 406:11 458:7 puzzle 158:11 ____ q____ ; qualifications J 71:7 1 qualified 71:10 | 334:1 I qualify 215:14 quality 93:2,8 117:18 119:22 156:12 251:17 quantification 262:22 Golkow Technologies, Inc. 1.877.370.DEPS quantify 323:9 quantities 94:15 254:7 quartz 85:21 165:6 question 98:10 102:15 126:2 135:12 154:24 176:1 187:8 207:7 224:17 226:16 231:20 250:10 256:13 281:19 295:24 303:23 310:10 310:16311:6 362:24 412:6 426:17 427:5 463:25 486:8 504:11 510:15 510:16 513:6,9 questionable 453:10 questioned 201:23 questioning 442:3 questions 67:2 70:14 82:11 89:21 91:11,15 97:19 99:19 102:16 104:10 106:22 110:12 112:15 114:13 124:19 126:22 129:5,13,15 130:6 131:17 132:23 133:22 134:15 138:22 140:19 142:8 142:15 144:12 145:6,21 148:7 149:23 150:21 153:19 154:2 155:1,19 157:9 161:1 162:21 163:1,24 165:24 166:10 Frederick Pooley, Ph.D. Page 557 166:18,24 167:18 170:16 171:10,16 172:2,8 173:4 174:5 175:7 178:24 179:19 181:18 185:13 186:13 188:5 188:13 189:2 189:10 190:18 191:2,22 192:8 192:17 193:15 193:23 196:11 196:23 197:22 200:5 201:5 202:8 204:13 204:17,18 206:23 215:1 216:16 220:17 221:1 224:14 224:18,22 225:3,15,18 226:2 227:9 230:15,20 232:15,19 234:20 237:1 237:24 239:20 240:22 241:13 243:9,24 244:10 245:4 247:1,14 251:8 253:18 255:12 257:5,16 258:16 262:19 263:10 264:5 268:6,18 269:3 269:9,14 270:21 271:15 273:11 275:6 275:12 276:23 278:14 279:1 281:1,9,17 283:8,23 285:4 285:10 286:14 286:20 287:3 288:20 290:2 291:4 292:1,15 293:1,11 294:8 296:19 297:15 297:20 299:14 300:3 301:5,15 302:11,16 303:15,22 304:8 306:11 307:15,24 310:2,9,17 311:17 314:16 315:16 316:6 321:9 326:13 330:21 331:6 332:3 333:15 333:20 335:9 338:14 340:13 343:2 344:1,10 345:17 346:11 346:16 347:6 349:6 351:4,17 352:4,19 353:3 353:18 354:12 354:24 356:12 356:20 359:6 360:20 361:1 361:15 362:13 363:2,18 364:5 364:13 365:4 369:19 370:17 371:4 374:3 375:17,23 376:6,14 377:3 377:16 378:3 379:21 380:7 380:18 382:23 384:4,16 385:14 386:7 388:10 389:1 391:10 392:6 397:1 402:12 403:9,20 404:1 406:21 407:3 407:21 408:12 408:23 409:15 410:1,10,17 411:5 412:9 413:1,24 414:3 414:18 415:5 415:17,24 416:7,15,24 417:4,16 418:8 418:25 419:17 420:12,18 421:3,9,14 422:4,12,20 423:5 424:18 425:8,23 426:16,24 427:1,9 428:9 428:15 429:19 430:3,16 434:24 438:3 438:18 439:6 441:1,21,24 444:17 446:9 446:10,21 447:16 449:18 450:3,11,17 451:9,11 453:1 453:20 454:1,3 454:7 455:7 456:9 457:12 457:18 458:22 459:5 460:9,12 461:10,15 462:7,15,17 463:20,23,24 464:6 468:1,13 470:8,20 471:18 474:5 474:11,21 475:5,9,18,24 476:8,14 477:13,21 478:3,13,20 479:3 480:2 481:1,12,21 482:8 484:1 487:6 488:21 489:7,21 490:21 491:14 492:21 494:14 495:4,10 496:4 496:19 497:1 497:10,17 498:7 499:17 499:22 500:13 ! 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S R ! r 54:1 55:10,10 | 57:5 59:2,4,20 1 59:20,20 60:5 60:8 61:2 62:5 i 62:17 63:1,21 1 182:3 j race 223:1 1 rachel 54:8,8 j radishes 317:24 ? 318:2 i raise 382:2 I 457:24 { raised 138:9 { 168:19 454:4,7 5 Golkow Technologies, Inc. - 1.877.370.DEPS Frederick Pooley, Ph.D. Page 558 510:14,20 raises 380:4 382:9 ramazzini61:ll 361:6,16 ramping 117:19 random 93:3 range 156:25 242:16,21 260:14 316:11 317:23 416:19 ranges 259:21 rare 173:7 231:5 260:1 339:18 rat 207:25 395:4 434:6 445:19 ratcliff 53:3 65:11 66:12 185:23 417:24 rate 202:12 rates 221:9 225:11 342:6 ratio 312:10,21 357:22 360:5 362:3,18 363:5 363:9 364:1 369:9,11 500:23 508:20 509:22 511:1 rationale 241:25 243:19 rats 177:21 180:25 181:8 434:10 463:1 ratted 397:12 reach 101:12 106:4 113:21 139:2 146:14 427:16 482:11 reached 109:15 120:10 133:16 155:16 170:10 reaching 376:1 react 376:18 reacted 184:11 184:13,19 187:5 reaction 380:23 reacts 381:4 read 115:18 127:13 142:17 167:20,23 231:14 249:11 272:5 293:2 310:11,23 365:15 429:23 485:23 500:10 501:15 516:3 517:4 reader 73:23,23 reading 221:18 223:13 249:16 305:1 334:15 334:21 379:7 382:7 480:11 488:6,16 reads 228:6 229:25 ready 123:2 202:18 226:17 459:15 470:12 real 318:3,3 319:15 336:18 342:19 368:1 368:15 391:25 505:3,5 realize 224:3 470:9 realized 378:6 really 100:18 107:22 133:1 142:22 146:12 173:6 187:10 195:25 210:19 211:9 225:6 238:13 241:24 252:3 271:25 272:3 284:24 297:2 303:8 307:5,5 308:8 356:18 375:9 388:18 395:14 395:21 420:6 448:2 464:5 471:21 493:8 501:8 realtime 53:17 515:3,18 reason 168:5 212:11 227:10 304:22 326:3 331:12 332:5 348:3 409:12 499:15 516:5 reasonable 316:1 367:10 367:15 387:15 reasonably 490:13 reasoning 306:10,12 reasons 191:3 337:24 454:10 reassure 295:1 recall 126:1 138:3,16 139:5 139:7 145:7 149:24 156:16 438:8 511:6 receipt 516:15 receive 224:18 received 84:1 393:12 394:2 452:16 recognition 378:19 recognize 443:23,24 504:1 recognized 111:7 307:6 448:1 452:1 recollection 167:5 392:24 441:14 453:14 recommended 61:15 record 66:4,16 144:23 179:13 185:7,8,10 216:2 236:22 236:23,25 241:2 304:23 304:24 364:24 364:25 365:2 419:9,10,14 514:16 records 170:8 227:15,18 recovering 75:6 recovery 75:8 recrossexami... 463:19 512:21 redacted 276:16 redirect 284:13 285:2 419:16 511:23 redweld 216:21 refer 95:7 97:22 98:20 263:11 421:17 reference 95:6 98:6,7 125:20 128:12 133:2 356:22 457:19 458:19 482:11 referenced 154:15 207:24 241:10413:5 referencerelat... 133:7,8,9,10 references 252:1 referred 264:2 referring 130:21 168:5 207:14 238:19 261:17 261:19 263:8 368:18 461:16 refers 100:18,19 125:3 152:20 404:16 reflect 423:7 reflecting 156:17 refractive 322:21 refresh 469:22 refreshing 495:14 j refute 294:1 j refuting 395:12 1 396:1 | regard 240:11 \ 252:19 327:13 1 351:20 | regarded 387:9 1 regarding ? 344:24 378:10 1 378:17 488:8 j regardless 225:8 1 484:19 } regards 336:16 } region 183:12 j regional 251:21 ! register 490:6 i registered 53:16 |S 515:3,17 1 registration 399:9 regular 173:19 227:5 regulated 311:22 regulatory 63:10451:19 rehash 337:1 | reimbursed | 191:24 f rejected 230:1 325:23,24 | 326:3 I relate 475:23 j related 76:24 77:12 420:11 i relates 81:20 444:6 relating 74:24 431:22 461:25 . relative 515:11 515:12 releases 61:11 reliability 453:10 reliable 456:17 497:14 Golkow Technologies, Inc. - 1.877.370.DEPS Frederick Pooley, Ph.D. Page 559 relied 495:23,24 502:9 relooked 491:9 relying 468:9,18 496:9 remain 170:24 remainder 137:2 remember 83:21 84:20 99:12 114:7 118:9 124:20 125:22,23 129:9 137:11 138:12,23 139:11 141:15 142:10 143:3 148:25 150:2,5 160:16 163:3,5 167:1 168:9 172:10 173:15 174:18,20 182:2 186:16 186:25 187:7 190:17 194:6 194:15 197:11 198:2,6,25 199:2,3 200:1 200:6 204:7,10 204:11,22,25 208:1 217:5 233:3,9,22 234:1 235:22 238:2,16 239:11 244:19 244:21 253:10 253:24 255:15 255:21 259:5 259:19 262:10 266:23 269:17 269:22,23 279:11 292:9 296:6 303:1 307:3 308:23 312:15 316:19 317:14 346:25 348:12 352:16 377:23 390:3 390:10 391:2 391:16 410:22 411:17 420:9 421:13 422:24 434:6 435:2 440:11,14,17 441:9 442:1,12 444:1,4,18 446:14 450:21 453:5,11 454:6 454:15 456:11 459:7,17 460:12 461:13 464:10 472:1 473:2 502:5 511:25 remind 163:16 423:16 remotely 509:25 removal 379:5 399:11,21 removed 442:18 removing 179:7 repeat 231:20 391:8 replace 444:3 473:6 replaced 305:6 308:1,2 report 56:17,19 56:22 57:10,13 58:1,2,12 61:8 63:12 84:6 91:20 93:11,18 96:17 99:11 100:9 102:13 104:12,13 106:23 107:12 107:15 108:14 110:14 114:10 115:9 117:8 126:19,23 127:3,4 129:7 129:17,20 134:18 135:2 140:21 142:9 144:5 145:23 148:10,12,14 157:6 304:13 305:6 306:4,4 306:14 308:1 354:17 355:2,6 375:14 385:1 393:11 405:21 420:24 421:16 422:21 428:10 431:3,8,20 433:4 436:6 437:6 444:2 479:7 480:11 480:12,16 494:19 506:24 512:10 reported 78:3 153:9 312:22 313:9 454:4 467:20 486:2 reporter 53:16 53:17,19,20 66:17 515:3,4 515:4,17,18,19 515:19,20,21 515:21 reporting 396:8 467:10 reports 91:23 106:25 114:5 135:16 152:21 156:16 276:3 276:19 304:11 307:17 312:11 313:1 336:7 342:5 350:24 365:20 387:7 394:10 398:18 423:7 452:16 453:6 513:14 represent 88:17 143:22 representation 500:14 representative 87:13 represented 74:10411:17 represents 127:22 153:10 191:12 reprint 399:12 399:21 reputable 169:17 reputation 117:17 190:16 457:24 request 243:14 289:3 333:25 requests 82:13 168:14 require 387:14 387:22 389:16 389:19 required 124:7 requirement 386:10 research 60:13 62:5 67:12 70:25 72:4,13 72:14,15,16,17 73:7,9,21,23 74:18,22 75:11 75:24 76:9,18 76:20 77:2,7 77:25 79:15 80:5,21 96:14 127:24 150:25 153:22 154:24 156:11,17,22 160:19 174:13 174:18,22 175:12 177:6,6 177:9 211:5,13 212:4,5 213:15 213:18 314:23 359:20,22 360:7 386:16 389:6 396:15 400:7 404:13 432:8 433:18 433:19 437:7 442:10,14,22 | 445:18 464:15 1 484:21 | researchwise j 445:13 ! resembling 146:18 j resides 389:6 i resolve 325:10 \ resources 61:16 j respect 243:12 | 439:15 498:1 \ respirator 87:21 | response 175:19 ! 178:7 297:19 1 337:10,21 ) 341:14 434:17 1 j responses ! 401:24 403:2,5 responsibility f 383:19 \ responsible j 199:25 428:2 ! responsive { j 178:23 1 rest 69:4 186:8 j 371:11 394:16 ! 405:21 478:23 494:7 507:6 j result 133:21 1 151:10 289:4 I 291:21 323:11 { 378:25 401:21 493:16 494:13 509:13 | resulting 374:11 | results 98:13 | 124:12 126:25 i 179:23 298:22 j 299:2 304:1 1 308:10 324:12 j 396:5,6 399:1 | 399:25 400:22 403:17 414:7 | 453:9 454:4,24 { 466:23 491:9 I 492:23 493:15 j Golkow Technologies, Inc. 1.877.370.DEPS 495:15 496:11 498:24 501:19 retained 227:1 492:11 retainer 231:13 231:16,23 232:1,3,10 retention 226:24 retested 491:8 retired 67:9 retirement 79:11 return 516:13 reveal 60:10 300:8 revealed 300:10 429:5 474:1 review 62:12 221:4,19,21 222:6,11 258:19 404:6 404:10 420:19 reviewed 234:22 441:3 reviewing 222:1 reviews 304:4 rewriting 383:19 rich 63:18 235:7 richard 259:1 right 68:11,14 68:21 71:2 74:16 75:22 79:8 81:23 82:1,8 84:14 87:17 91:24 92:5,6,9,13,15 93:12,15 96:21 96:22,25 97:20 98:16,17,19 101:24 102:1,2 102:9,11 104:13 105:21 106:14 107:13 107:24 108:1,3 108:11,12,20 109:25 112:7,8 Frederick Pooley, Ph.D. 113:16,19,21 114:1,3 115:18 117:25 119:1,3 119:10 121:20 124:11 125:8 126:5,16,25 127:4,13,19 128:18,21 129:2,6 131:4 132:6,15,20 134:25 135:2,6 135:11,13,15 136:14,14,16 136:24 137:9 138:7 142:23 143:6,8 144:1 144:8,15,20 145:25 146:1,6 146:8,10 149:20 152:5 152:18 153:1 153:16 154:9 154:14,18,24 155:12,22 156:2,9,14,19 157:22 158:6,8 158:11,17,24 160:22 161:16 161:23 162:17 162:20,23,25 163:2,21,25 164:6,10,17 166:25 168:12 170:13 171:5,6 171:14 172:3,5 173:15,22 174:2,6,11,17 176:10 179:24 180:4,7,13,15 180:22 181:5,7 181:14,22,23 182:11 183:11 185:18 186:3,4 189:7,11 190:10,21,23 191:24 192:1 192:11,20 193:4 194:1,16 194:20,23 195:7,11,17 196:19,24 197:8 199:6,8 199:14,17 200:20 202:2,9 202:16 203:4 203:21 204:9 204:15 205:23 206:18,18 210:4,6,8 212:23 213:12 214:1 216:8,12 217:18 218:2 218:19 219:5,6 222:7 223:8 225:5 226:3,15 228:9 229:8 230:4,6,12 232:4 236:11 236:20 237:9 237:13 238:5 238:10,25 239:9,16 241:11,12,24 245:9 246:8 248:8,15 249:15 252:4 252:17 254:18 255:1,3 256:5 256:5,20 257:13 258:3 258:12,17 260:7,12 261:3 261:16 262:23 264:24 265:4,6 265:14 266:14 269:21 272:16 272:21 277:3 277:17 280:3 280:19 282:9 283:24 284:23 286:17 287:4 289:2,20,24 290:3 292:23 294:18 295:8 298:24 299:17 299:22 302:20 305:3 306:23 307:7,25 308:3 308:13 312:2 313:5,13 314:17,21,24 315:2 317:3 318:20,25 319:16 320:3 320:16,21,24 322:2,22,25 323:6 325:15 325:21 326:1,5 327:8,9,11,18 328:18 329:16 331:7,16,21 332:20 335:23 337:19 339:2,8 339:21 341:9 343:1,5,12 344:14 345:14 345:18 346:13 347:25 348:1 349:19 350:2 350:10 352:24 357:4,9 358:13 359:21 362:25 364:19,22 365:10 368:6,9 368:20 369:21 369:23,25 370:13,18,20 373:18 379:23 380:8 381:2,9 381:25 383:1 385:22 389:19 390:25 392:11 392:12 393:5 393:18,23 394:8,17,22 396:7 398:24 400:6 406:6,24 407:5,15 408:1 408:7,15,24 409:4 414:24 415:15 418:18 Page 560 j 418:19 419c7 | 419:13 420:24 421:4,6,8,16 j 421:19,21,22 j J 421:25 423:11 I 423:20,21,22 423:25 424:3 ! 424:16 425:9 ! 425:11,14,18 | 426:2,4,6,12 J 426:25 427:4,6 I 429:20 430:5 \ 431:5,5,8,14 J 431:14,17 ? j 432:2 433:6,8 j 433:15,23 434:3,11 435:4 j 435:9,13,18,22 ! 436:4,12,16,19 436:23 437:2 439:15,17 f 440:6,12,19,20 j 444:7,11,13 1 445:7 446:5,22 J 447:15,17 449:11,24 1 j 450:14,25 j 451:3,10 452:21 453:2 453:22,23 j 454:5,11,13 f 455:10,13 | j 459:22 460:1 J 460:20,24 f 461:4,9 462:1 ( 462:8,16 463:16 465:8 j j 466:23 467:19 J 468:3 469:1,7 472:16 473:19 j 476:5 478:25 479:5,15,18,22 I 481:17 482:17 I 483:9,21 | 484:16 485:2 485:14,15 j 486:12,19 Golkow Technologies, Inc. 1.877.370.DEPS Frederick Pooley, Ph.D. Page 561 487:9,13 490:7 490:15 491:10 491:21 492:15 492:17 494:9 494:17,22 495:16 498:21 499:10,11,24 500:5,14 501:7 502:2 505:2,9 506:8 508:20 508:25 510:3 510:21 512:5 512:13,14,18 513:14514:11 ring 139:23 140:11 142:20 150:17 256:2 321:4 rising 121:9 risk61:18 339:23 ritz411:13 road 192:6 210:9 226:11 226:17 236:13 236:14 237:3 296:22 311:7 313:14 335:24 335:25 365:6 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