Document kDaKNzQ8RKNgd39r2MnQNjmqy

1 IN THE DISTRICT COURT OF THE UNITED STATES EASTERN DISTRICT OF KENTUCKY 2 PIKEVILLE DIVISION 3 4 5 EQUITABLE RESOURCES ENERGY COMPANY, a West Virginia 6 Corporation, 7 Plaintiff, 8 VS. 9 MONSANTO COMPANY, a Delaware Corporation, 10 Defendant. 11 ) ) ) ) ) ) ) ) ) ) ) ) No.91-441 12 13 14 15 DEPOSITION OF JOHN CRADDOCK, PH. D. 16 TAKEN ON BEHALF OF THE PLAINTIFF. 17 18 19 September 9, 1992 20 21 22 23 RICHARD E. SCHROEDER 24 Registered Professional Reporters 400 North Fourth St. - Suite 910 25 St. Louis, MO 63102 (314) 621-0107 STLCOPCB4025305 1 EXHIBIT INDEX 2 Plaintiff's Page Moved In Evidence 32 3 4 13 14 5 29 30 6 31 33 7 34 69 8 60 63 75 79 97 104 106 107 108 114 89 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 STLCOPCB4025306 1 .......... IN THE DISTRICT COURT OF THE UNITED STATES EASTERN DISTRICT OF MISSOURI 2 ....;____________ EASTERN DIVISION 3 .4 EQUITABLE RESOURCES ENERGY COMPANY, a West Virginia 5 Corporation, 6 Plaintiff, 7 VS . 8 MONSANTO COMPANY, a Delaware Corporation, 9 Defendant. 10 ) ) ) ) ) ) ) No. 91-441 ) ) ) ) ) .. 11 . ,r- 12 - - it .- ) - 13 iiMii'1' - W fa * ! . . ;7-'. ....................... i2T>T 15 16 17 DEPOSITION OF JOHN CRADDOCK, PH. D., produced, sworn, and examined on the part of the PLAINTIFF, used in an action pending in the United States District Court within and for the Eastern Division of the Eastern Judicial District of Missouri, in re: EQUITABLE RESOURCES ENERGY .COMPANY,,a West Virginia Corporation, VS. MONSANTO 'COMPANY, a Delaware Corporation, on September 9, -1992, at the office of Husch, Eppenberger, Donohue, Cornfeld & Jenkins, 100 North Broadway, St. Louis, Missouri, before Richard L. Saunders, a Notary Public within and for the City of St. Louis, State of Missouri. 18 APPEARANCES: 19 McCoy, Baker & West 309 North Broadway 20 Lexington, Kentucky 40592-1660 . By: Michael D. Baker, Esq. 21 And Charles E. Beal, II, Esq. For The Plaintiff. 22 VanAntwerp, Monge, Jones & Edwards 23 1544 Winchester Avenue - Fifth Floor Ashland, Kentucky 41101 24 By: Gregory L. Monge, Esq. J For The Defendant. 25 * \ 5 I 2 STLCOPCB4025307 1 JOHN CRADDOCK, PH. D., 2 3 of lawful age, produced, sworn, and examined on 4 behalf of the PLAINTIFF, deposes and says: 5 DIRECT EXAMINATION 6 BY MR. BAKER: 7 Q. Mr. Craddock, my name is Michael Baker, and 8 Mr. Beal and I represent Equitable in this case. 9 We're in a law firm in Lexington, Kentucky. 10 I assume you have probably had this 11 done to you once or twice before. I will say that 12 the way we try to do things, I'm not here to match 13 wits with you, to try to trick you into saying 14 something you - don't mean. I'm here to try to get 15 some information. This is our first deposition in 16 this case, so some of the questions that we ask may 17 seem elementary, and sometimes it's because we don't 18 know. Other times maybe we do know but there are 19 things we need to get nailed down early on in the 20 case. . 21 If I ask you anything you don't 22 understand, please don't answer. Just ask me to 23 rephrase it or to explain it. I'll be happy to do 24 that because, like I said, I'm not here to try to 25 trick you into saying something you don't mean to 3 STLCOPCB4025308 y&a&ijR*rffl:iirw. .-..s.vtra -x. .:<!;. !- -1- -`v. :.-c.y\i. T-jS-f '-- -- --. --: ,-, .V^'-.-Wfl.-..!... J -.- T. J ::. 1 say .-r=;............. ... . - .. . 7.... - - ' --- .... . .' ` ' . .' ' . 2.................................... ;......... ................ What is your name, please? 3 A. John Craddock. ......_ .. 4 "" .......... 5 . ...... 6 Q. Mr. Craddock, where do you live? A. 6 Ferrand Woods, St. Louis, Missouri. Q. And approximately how old are you? 7 A. Figure that out. 56. 8 Q. What's your educational background? 9 A. I have a B. S. in Chemistry from Memphis 10 State University and a Ph. D. in Organic Chemistry 11 from Vanderbilt University. /. ~.-f:\,l2>iif.*:, " "12 O/.-V-.vt. .. --.-. -.<* ,:>. .'13. Q. l:fs|::;A. ' ^+1 A ';6' :- r ' ` .:''Ti^';-.':' u-.v v^- /"' t'4, Q.M" When did you obtain 1961 . . . .. Where did you go to your work Ph. D.? after that? :^;t .A. Right out of school I went to work for 16 M. W. Kellogg Engineering Company in New York City. 17 Q. And, generally, what was your job there? 18 A. I was a research chemist in their research 19 laboratories in Jersey City. 20 Q. How long did you stay in that position? 21 A. I was with Kellogg until 1965. 22 Q. Then where did you go? 23 A. Joined Monsanto in 1965 in St. Louis. 24 Q. Have you been working for Monsanto in St. J 25 Louis all the time since 1965? 4 STLCOPCB4025309 1 A. That's correct. 2. Q. What was your job in 1965? 3 A. I joined Monsanto in 1965 as a research 4 group leader. 5 Q. And what did that mean? 6 A. I came into the Central Research Department 7 and I had a group of three or four younger chemists, 8 junior chemists, and a couple of technicians 9 reported directly to me. 10 Q. And how long did you stay in that position? 11 A. Two or three years probably. 12 Q. Did you get a promotion? 13 A. I did. Then moved to something like a 14 group leader II. These are more or less pay 15 grades. You sort of move up the chain. 16 Q. Did you have additional responsibilities in 17 that job? 18 A. Yes. The group got larger, a couple more 19 people. I had responsibility for interfacing with 20 the Engineering Department. . 21 Q. How long did you remain a group leader II 22 approximately? 23 A. Probably three or four years. 24 Q. Then you got another promotion? 25 A. At some point along the way I became what 5 STLCOPCB4025310 1 was classified in those days as a senior research 2 group leader and I held that position as long as I 3 was in the Corporate Research Department. 4 Q. Then at some point you left the Corporate 5 Research Department? 6 A. In about 19 -- I'd say 1971 I was loaned to 7 what was in those days known as the Hydrocarbons & 8 Polymers Division as -- what was the title we called 9 them in those days? A commercial development 10 manager. 11 Q. That was the Hydrocarbon - 12 A. And Polymers. No longer exists. 13 V Q. And how long were you on loan to that 14 .division? 15 A. I was with them from '71 to probably '74. 16 Q. Then did you go to a different division? 17 A. 1974 I moved into Monsanto Industrial 18 Chemicals Company as a manager of commercial 19 development in the Food & Fine Chemicals Division. 20 Q. Is that a separate corporation? 21 A. Monsanto Company owns all the Monsanto 22 leader divisions or groups, or sometimes they call 23 them chemical companies. The corporate structure 24 changes. We just changed back from companies. 25 We're now groups again, so -- 6 STLCOPCB4025311 m i Q. I understand how those things can happen. 2 But Monsanto Company.-- 3 A. Monsanto Company is the principal entity, 4 and I work for Monsanto Company. 5 Q. You worked for different -- either 6 divisions or groups within that company all this 7 time ? 8 A. That's correct. 9 Q. And what did you do in the production 10 development of Food & Fine Chemicals Division? 11 A. In the Food & Fine Chemicals I was a 12 manager of commercial development and my job was to 13 interface with customers and with regulatory if: f. . -' 14 : agencies, to move new products from the laboratory 15 or to find new uses for existing products. 16 Q. And how long did you stay in that division? 17 A. Probably until about '77, '78. 18 Q. Then where did you go? 19 A. Then I stayed in the Monsanto Industrial 20 Chemicals Company but I moved into the newly formed 21 Environmental Operations Department. 22 Q. And have you remained in that department? 23 A. I've essentially remained in that type of 24 function. I moved from the Monsanto Industrial 25 Chemicals Company, Environmental Operations 7 STLCOPCB4025312 --Tir-V V - .. , is? 1 Department, to the corporate staff in roughly 1984 2 or '83, sometime thereabout. 3 Q. And have you had any other jobs since then? 4 A. No. I essentially have the same function 5 with the corporate staffs. 6 Q. What is your current position with the 7 corporate staff? 8 A. My title is product and environmental 9 safety/regulatory affairs director. I'm in the 10 Corporate Environmental Safety Health Department. 11 Q. And what does your current job entail 12 besides testifying? 13 A. I have to do with product stewardship for 14 products that we no longer manufacture. We 15 primarily provide information to former customers, 16 regulatory agencies, the media, anybody who has 17 questions about products that we no longer 18 manufacture, which includes PCB's. 19 I provide regulatory management for 20 our existing U. S. Plants, for products that we make 21 under the Toxic Substances Control Act which are 22 regulated under TSCA, T-S-C-A. That's an acronym 23 for Toxic Substances Control Act. 24 Along with these products, we provide 25 health and safety information, which includes STLCOPCB4025313 a VV*^. yfr - -. :. 7.;.': -o'}/- -;.. .-^^ f;`_.;'j .: -iV'iVrrfirr-iT^ 'r-ir ^-i^'i,wttj4*>. .> TrV'rtTTir.'-----r:~:,1T~r":'-'i'-`-- 'rAii* -7-777;--------"~T-~ j:" - ~;. v?i' >' ~V .. ; * -' . r,y;.";.^', ;^Y: i'J Ji. ,*j ' -_".-`.'VT iiTK 5;?.' -. - -4.T s~ _i""..\ '..& l'% ' '.\.'.I"!T .' ' 3?'!.;Yv41i.'tvv5vlA?fy.s' Material Safety Data Sheets, any product questions 2 that people have favorable to replacement and so .... 3 forth. 4 Q. When did you first become familiar with 5 PCB' s? 6 A. I became familiar with PCB's when I worked in the laboratory. Corporate Research Department. We used PCB's as a routine heat exchange fluid for safety purposes. 10 Q. Would that have started in 1965? 11 A. In that time frame, you know, probably asi2v .somewhere from '65 to '70. It was a routine tool " -v&il:.: ' M-sm^ ^ Jr1 " i3 .that was available in the laboratories. 1 A :->' dii:^k.Q* si'S In your straining at Memphis State and -;i>; -. T^!fVy4? fel-'iy^rV*y,' 1 (.. ^Vanderbiltydid.you study anything about PCB's? r.-at v#>;<-f a>; -ji,;-'-'- Aap'-Vi.1 - 16 ' ^ A. . No, not that I recall. ..... 17 Q. So your first familiarity was after you 18 first started working for Monsanto? 19 A. Right. 20 Q. And I assume in your first job prior to 21 Monsanto you had no involvement or knowledge of 22 PCB's? 23 A. I don't recall PCB's at all. 24 Q. Just for the record, what does ''PCB" mean? 25 A. PCB is an acronym for the chemical family STLCOPCB4025314 -~r.P i:.. .?: ..i-V-..' .4 . . v 1 chlorinated biphenyls. 2 Q. Is that a chlorinated hydrocarbon? 3 A. It is a chlorinated hydrocarbon of a 4 specific type. 5 Q. Are there chlorinated hydrocarbons that are 6 not PCB's? 7 A. There are literally thousands of 8 chlorinated hydrocarbons. 9 Q. Also, for the record, what is a PCT? 10 A. PCT is an acronym for another family of 11 chlorinated hydrocarbons, polychlorinated 12 terphenyls. 13 Q. Are there chlorinated hydrocarbons that are Vv;-' /:. : V- . 14 J still commonly used? 15 ; A..., Many. For instance, common dry cleaning 16 fluids are chlorinated hydrocarbons. 17 Q. And I assume you say there are chlorinated 18 hydrocarbons that are safe for use? 19 A. I think that's a fair statement. 20 Chlorinated hydrocarbons have many similar 21 properties, chemically, as well as health and 22 safety. 23 Q. Were you involved in the decision by 24 Monsanto to stop producing PCB's? 25 A. No, that was before my tenure in this 10 STLCOPCB4025315 WEs^'&sasfr: s^?.':irX!V .'-.'.'/'M';' SMfe! w*><&n''.nrV^bu4Y^ 1 position. 2 ......... Q. Were you involved in the decision by 3 Monsanto to stop producing PCT's? 4 A. No. 5 Q. Are you the pe 6 to the first set of int 7 this case? 8 A. Yes, I am. 9 Q. In resp onse to 10 A. Yes, that's CO 11 MR. BAKER: We 12 identify a corpo rate re J. - 13 deposition. I would as ..Scrij'r;--r- -r -C' .r* . 14 ^ -V '`'"''Jr?- is,. authorized " S " - : . ` -areas that to sp eak on . were asked i ''`V.Y r- ' 16 deposition. ..... 17 MR. MONGE: Fo 18 our answers to the inte 19 no one person ha s all t 20 Dr. Craddock has put hi 21 information that 's been 22 as to whether he will b 23 representative for 30(b)(6) representative, I don't 24 know that that's accurate at this point, Mike. And 25 since you asked specifically for him and didn't ask 11 STLCOPCB4025316 W'i''-' T.: ' l for a 30(b)(6) representative, I really can't say 2 that he will be. 3 Q. (By Mr. Baker) Have you been involved in 4 working with Monsanto in other litigation involving 5 PCB's? 6 A. To some extent, yes. 7 Q. Have you testified in any trials? 8 A. I think one. 9 Q. Do you recall the style of the case or 10 where the case was? 11 A. Yeah, this was a special case. I don't 12 know exactly what -- it was handled -- it was in San 13 Francisco and it's a case where they have a sort of . s 14 jii administrative judge, both sides agree to dispute. . 15 Is that what they call it? 16 MR. MONGE: I think there was an 17 arbitration of some kind. 18 Q. (By Mr. Baker) Do you know who the 19 plaintiff was in that case? 20 A. It was a list of plaintiffs. It was called 21 the Wynne Market Plaza cases. 22 Q. Have you given depositions in any other 23 litigation involving PCB's? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. Approximately how many times? 12 STLCOPCB4025317 ----- aassfciiK-^ " ... - t )1 .. ....._;.......... 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 .) 13 .. -'r,- - .... '' 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 J 25 A. Three or four. ..........Q. Do you know if there are transcripts of those depositions or of your testimony in the San Francisco case? A. I'm sure there is because there was a court reporter. MR. BAKER: Is there any objection to our obtaining transcripts of his prior testimony? MR. MONGE: I don't know about the arbitration. I'm really not sure what that was about or whether there was, but if there are publicly recorded transcripts of evidence of his testimony in public records, we will certainly undertake to.see if we've got those or you can get them. ; MR. BAKER: I will ask then if you will produce any transcripts of his testimony in cases involving questions concerning PCB's, or if they exist and there is some objection to it, inform us they exist and the basis for the objection. MR. MONGE: We'll do that right well. Q. (By Mr. Baker) I assume -- in fact, I'm ' confident there have been cases for a number of years against Monsanto concerning PCB's. When did you first become involved in 13 STLCOPCB4025318 STLCOPCB4025319 1 Q. Or in any litigation concerning PCB's? 2 .........A. . No. ......................... 3 Q. When you were in the Environmental 4 Operations Department were you involved with PCB 5 litigation at all? 6 A. No PCB litigation. 7 Q. So your involvement with PCB litigation 8 began sometime after you moved to the corporate 9 staff? 10 A. It began after 1980, because the function 11 moved to the corporate staff in '84. My involvement 12 with PCB's began roughly in 1980, total involvement. 13 Q. Would Mr. Papageorge -- or is it 14 Papageorge? . 15 A. Papageorge. 16 Q. Would he have been involved with PCB's 17 earlier than you were? 18 A. I don't know if there was litigation prior 19 to that time. 20 Q. We can ask him. 21 In your current position are you 22 involved at all in testing new chemicals or new 23 substances to determine whether they are hazardous 24 and whether they should be marketed? 25 A. No, I'm not. 15 STLCOPCB4025320 Vii .... .- : 7 -- 7 - 7,. :; ^ W; l Q. Were you involved in any of that kind of 2 activity in any of your previous positions? 3 A. Yes, I was. 4 Q. When did that begin and how long were you 5 involved in that? 6 A. When I was in the commercial development 7 function, the first commercial development function 8 which would move to Hydrocarbons & Polymers 9 Division, which is roughly '71. 10 Q. In 1971, and, say, for five years 11 thereafter did Monsanto develop new products? 12 A. Yes, they did. 13 Q. In general terms, how many new products 14 would they have developed? 15 :v:: :., MR. MONGE: To the extent that you know the 16 answer to that question. 17 A. I don't have a number. Dozens would be a 18 guess. 19 Q. (By Mr. Baker) That's good enough for our 20 purposes. Was there testing prior to marketing 21 those products to determine both what they would do 22 and how well they would do it, as well as whether 23 they were safe for use and how they should be 24 disposed of? 25 MR. MONGE: Let me just have an objection 16 STLCOPCB4025321 1 to the form of the question, and probably should 2 ..have objected earlier on the use of the term "safe" 3 because that can connote a lot of things. It might 4 be safe for one application and not safe for another 5 application. But with that objection. I'll let him 6 answer. 7 THE WITNESS: Okay, what's the question 8 again? 9 Q. (By Mr. Baker) Let me try to rephrase the 10 question again. I'm not trying to trick you into 11 adopting the word "safe," but from, say, 1971 when 12 you first became involved with testing products, 13;V :.v. say, for the next five years or so, did Monsanto 14 conduct tests concerning applications and safety of 15 their products? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. What kind of testing was done? 18 A. There's a general health and safety screen 19 that's done that's recognized by the regulatory 20 agencies and the acute test for short-term exposure, 21 and this includes ingestion, dermal testing. The 22 various routes that this particular chemical would 23 commonly be exposed to people, those routes were 24 tested first in a series of acute short-term tests, 25 and then following that, depending on the result of 17 STLCOPCB4025322 1 the test and the outlook of the market, then you 2 went on to more detail testing. 3 Q. Did you do animal testing? 4 A. Yes, animal testing is involved. 5 Q. Testing on humans? 6 A. No. Human testing is not allowed in this 7 country. 8 Q. What kinds of animal testing would you have 9 done for a new chemical product? 10 MR. MONGE: Again, objection to the 11 generality, but understanding that he's just 12 speaking in general terms, to the extent that you 13 can answer that, go ahead. 14 A. . Depending on the particular use of the 15 screen, there are standard test protocols. Usually 16 these involve mice. You start with the lower 17 species, mice, then you move up to rodents. 18 Ultimately, you move up to things the size of dogs, 19 apes, monkeys and so forth. And there's also tests 20 that are done in avian and fish species. 21 Q. (By Mr. Baker) What are you trying to 22 determine with these tests? 23 A. In the acute test you are trying to 24 determine the exposure level at which any -- guess 25 I'm trying to think of the word -- that any chronic 18 STLCOPCB4025323 1 or any clinical signs of health effects will occur. 2 ........Q. And are you looking at a broad spectrum of 3 adverse health effects? 4 ........... A. Yes, there's a generally defined protocol 5 of what you're looking for in these tests. 6 Q. And generally what kinds of health effects 7 are you looking for or hoping not to find? 8 A. Well, in the acute test, the first test, 9 you are really looking for a lethal dose, to see 0 what is the maximum tolerated dose and you're 1 looking to see if there are any overt signs of 2 irritation, rash, any kind of manifestation of a 3 .possible health factor. 4 *2,,, ; When you move to the higher species, of 5 .animals the longer term studies can involve lifetime 6 feeding studies at various doses up to the maximum 7 minimum tolerated doses. You actually dissect the 8 organs of the animal and you look for everything you 9 look for in an autopsy, everything from organ 0 development, tumorgenic cancer effects, neurological 1 disorders. 2 These tests, by the way, are not done 3 by someone such as myself. These are done by 4 trained board-certified pathologists, 5 toxicologists. It's very specialized type of 19 STLCOPCB4025324 1 testing. 2 ...... , Q. Are there national guidelines for this kind 3 of product testing? 4 A. These are evolving. There have been 5 standard protocols that have been accepted over the 6 years and these have changed as the body of 7 information has gotten done, but yes, there are. 8 And there were guidelines and at the time the 9 testing was done according to accepted national 0 standards that were applicable and in force at the 1 time. 2; Q. What agency or agencies would adopt or 3 ;promulgate guidelines for this kind of testing? 4 MR. MONGE: Just let me -- during what - 5 .period of time? 6 Q. (By Mr. Baker) Okay, let's say from 1971 7 to the present, if it has changed since '71. 8 A. It has changed since '71. Changed 9 significantly. 0 Q. Why don't we start with '71 and go 1 forward? Then we'll start with '71 and go 2 backward. 3 A. I'm not sure if I can give you an exact 4 chronology of this, but up until probably the '60's 5 and '70's the only protocols that were established 20 STLCOPCB4025325 1 were by the Food & Drug Administration, and these 2 were primarily for chemicals which would be used as 3 a drug or a therapeutic ingredient to be ingested or 4 used on humans or as a food which would be ingested 5 or used on humans. Included in this, they have a 6 definition of things that are used on foods for 7 consumption by humans. The food and drug 8 regulations also include things that you feed to 9 animals which would be fed to humans. 10 At some point in time the 11 U. S. Department of Agriculture had certain test 12 protocols that came in and these sort of evolved as 13 for chemicals which were used in animal feeds 14 primarily, and that was probably 1970, pre-1970. 15 Since 1970, as more and more government agencies 16 have proliferated and science has moved forward, 17 these have changed. 18 At one point in time they established 19 the Environmental Protection Agency and I think the 20 EPA was first established probably in the early 21 '70's and they began to regulate under something 22 known as FIFRA, F-I-F-R-A, which is the Federal 23 Insecticide, Fungicide & Rodenticide Act. I believe 24 that's what the initials stand for. And this began 25 to regulate pesticides as they were called, which 21 STLCOPCB4025326 1 were things we used to control pests; bugs, rodents 2 and so forth. 3 Then this has been extended then to 4 look at agricultural chemicals, things which you 5 used on farms which would leave a residue on a crop 6 which might subsequently be ingested by humans or 7 animals. And there's some overlap with respect to 8 the FIFRA group under EPA and the FDA and USDA who 9 regulate the foodstuffs, so these have evolved since 10 then and as these have evolved more and more 11 standards have been developed for testing. It was 12 only fairly recently that a standard good laboratory 13 practices act was passed which requires standard 14 ^practices in laboratories for animal maintenance, 15 feeding, cleaning, caring and record keeping has 16 come around. That's roughly in the early '80's to 17 maybe the mid-'80's. 18 Q. Okay, Mr. Craddock, in the '50's and '60's 19 were there any nationally accepted testing 20 guidelines that would be applicable , to a chemical 21 such as PCB? 22 MR. MONGE: If you know. 23 A. Prior to the federal guidelines, 24 professional societies, which include the 25 membership, established the practices such as the 22 STLCOPCB4025327 iiiiib'lCX -4- -r; r 1 AMA did for physicians, the Americ an Chemical 2 Society did for chemistry, there ' s a society of 3 toxicol ogists, veterinarian s and s o forth, and these 4 dif fere nt groups establishe d the p rotocols and 5 practic es that we used in t esting the animals or 6 product s or whatever that i nvolved their 7 profess ions . 8 Q. (By Mr. Baker) Do you know what kinds of 9 guidelines were in plac e for PCB' s in the 1950 's and 10 the 19 6 0 ' s ? 11 A. From my readin gs, there were essentially 12 very few. It was the s ame as for any other . .4 V- 4 - V: - '13 chlorinated organic ind ustrial chemical, :Ifr Q . 4 : And then your testimony is that primarily 15 the guidelines in place during that period were for 16 foods or drugs to be in gested? 17 A. Well, they wer e for -- there were tests -- 18 they weren't tests that were established by -- these 19 chemicals were not test ed for food use but the 20 testing procedures were the ones that were 21 applicable to foods bee ause these were the most 22 stringent test procedur es that were available at the 23 time, so the acute sere ens that were used for these 24 chemicals were the ones that were basically used for 25 testing any chemicals f or the acute screen. 23 STLCOPCB4025328  VJ: jV':.. - 'rrtr"` 1 Q. If Monsanto or some other company were 2 today to develop a chemical, a new one, say PCB's 3 had not been discovered or developed until today; 4 what kind of testing would be required prior to 5 marketing ? 6 MR. MONGE: Let me object to the relevance 7 of that on the basis that it really asks him to 8 assume something that hasn't happened, didn't happen 9 and won't happen. But I mean to the extent that he 10 can speculate on that or wants to answer that 11 question, I will let him go ahead and answer. 12 Q. (By Mr. Baker) You may answer. 13 . r A. About the best thing that I can say about 14 iat;was iinS1979. the ; National Academy of Sciences 15 published a monograph on polychlorinated biphenyls. 16 They looked at what was known about PCB's, what was 17 known about the testing, what was known about the 18 required testing systems that were required by the 19 government agencies in power, and the most stringent 20 testing system for new chemicals on the market was 21 the FIFRA test system. And they looked at the 22 testing that had been done for PCB's and compared it 23 to what was required by the FIFRA act in 1979 and 24 they concluded that PCB's had had all of the testing 25 prior to that time that would have been required in 24 STLCOPCB4025329 ft 1 1979 for any new chemical going on the market and 2 that PCB's would have passed the FIFRA test system. 3 Q. At what point in time? Let me rephrase 4 that. You said that was a conclusion they reached 5 in 1979? 6 A. 1979. 7 Q. Was that testing that had been done through 8 1979 or testing that had been done through 1957 or 9 what point in time? 10 A. It's probably testing that would have been 11 done up through 1978 and early 1979. 12 Q. To the extent you know, does your company vi-i- 13 take the position that the testing required by FIFRA i-'- ----- - 14 was done prior to their marketing of PCB's? 15 MR. MONGE: If you know the answer. I 16 don't want you to speculate on it. 17 A. No, I started to say the testing that was 18 done, all of this was before my time because I 19 became involved in 1980. But this is a published 20 document that's available. - 21 Q. (By Mr. Baker) Who published that 22 document ? 23 A. The National Academy of Sciences in 24 Washington, D. C. 25 Q. Do you know if that's something that is 25 STLCOPCB4025330 - VxJ -' \.P-' l currently available? 2 A. It's available in good libraries. It has 3 been out of print but I think it has been reprinted 4 because it's commonly available in good libraries, 5 good laboratories, certainly available at the 6 National Academy of Science library in Washington. 7 Q. Let me ask you an easier question. Do you 8 have a copy of it? 9 A. I had a copy at one time and I may still 10 have it in my bookcase. 11 MR. BAKER: Do you have any objection to 12 producing that for us? 13 MR. MONGE: How big is it? 14 . . THE WITNESS: (Indicating.) 15 - ... MR. MONGE: No. 16 MR. BAKER: If you give us the front page, 17 we'll try to find it somewhere else. 18 MR. MONGE: If we got a copy of it I don't 19 have any objection to that, so we'll make a note. 20 MR. BAKER: I'd ask that you either produce 21 it for us or give us some identifying front page or 22 something. 23 MR. MONGE: I will. If I got a copy of it 24 I'll give it to you. 25 It's a monograph, right? 26 STLCOPCB4025331 THE WITNESS: It's a monograph. Q. (By Mr. Baker) If you were to develop a new chemical today -- I won't ask about hypothetical PCB's, but I assume that Monsanto develops new products regularly. On a new chemical product, not for food or drugs but a chemical product for a lubricant or any other external use, what kind of testing are you required to do today before marketing that product? A. I don't know the details of what's required but there is an established federal protocol now, a 'detailed protocol for any new chemical that's to come on the market, everything, including a premanufacturing notice. I think this is now required under EPA. Q. Is that more stringent than it was in 1979? A. I'd have to guess. MR. MONGE: Don't guess. Don't guess. A. Okay, don't know. Q. (By Mr. Baker) You testified earlier that you did participate in animal studies or conduct animal studies? A. I managed the budgets and the planning of those, yes. Q. Among the possible health effects that 27 STLCOPCB4025332 1 you're looking for or hoping to avoid are you 2 looking at whether a substance may cause cancer? 3 A. Absolutely. 4 Q. Tumors ? 5 A. Absolutely. 6 Q. Do you look at mutation of cells? 7 A. Which is one of the standard protocols. 8 yes . 9 Q. You look at effe ct on reproduction? 10 A. Yes, this is sta ndard. 11 Q. Are you familiar with the steps that 12 Monsant o took for new pro ducts prior to 1970 in 13 assessing the risk of the products? 14 . A. No. 15 Q. Do you know who would be who is still 16 living today? 17 A. That's hard to - - Mr. Papageorge, you have 18 his name. He was involve d. I don't know whether he 19 was involved in -- you kn ow, in this time, but he's 20 certain ly one that might know or have -- it was 21 during his generation whe n this was done, 22 Q. Do you know of a ny other persons who are 23 living who may have parti cipated in testing of PCB's 24 between the 1930's and 19 71? 25 A. Yeah, I think th e director of our Medical 28 STLCOPCB4025333 ....-ri-.'i 1 Department is still alive and well. Dr. Emmett 2 . Kelly. 3 Q. Do you know where Dr. Kelly lives now? 4 A. He lives in St. Louis somewhere. 5 Q. Is he retired? 6 A. I think he has an active retirement. I 7 don't know exactly what -- I know he has some 8 volunteer clinics. I don't know whether he does 9 anything else now, but he's retired from Monsanto. 10 Q. And Dr. Kelly is a physician, is he not? 11 A. He is a physician. Q. Are you familiar with the former Monsanto 'product Pydraul AC? Yes, I am. .- . - Q. Do you know approximately when Monsanto began producing Pydraul AC? A. Only from reading the literature, but 18 probably in the '50's, early '60's, something like 19 that. 20 Q. Do you know what the components of Pydraul 21 AC were? 22 A. Off the top of my head, I don't know. I'd 23 have to look that up. 24 J 25 Q. It did contain polychlorinated biphenyls? A. Yes, I know it did. 29 STLCOPCB4025334 .v.vr.' J 1 Q. What is Aroclor? 2 ........ A. Aroclor is a registered trademark owned by 3 Monsanto Company for the general family of 4 polychlorinated polyphenyls. It is not a synonym 5 for PCB's. 6 Q. Polychlorinated polyphenyls? 7 A. Correct. 8 Q. So a PCT would be Aroclor? 9 A. PCT could be sold under the trademark 10 Aroclor. The trademark doesn't necessarily describe 11 the product. It's like some of the federal 12 trademark laws. It's just a name, that this is your 13 product. 141; i . ,, Q. I have seen different numbers attached to 15 .. the name Aroclor. I believe that those numbers 16 reflect a percentage of chlorine. 17 Can you enlighten us some on that? 18 A. In addition to Aroclor being a registered 19 trademark of Monsanto, I think that the Aroclor with 20 the following digits were also registered 21 trademarks. The combination of the trademark 22 Aroclor with the other identifying code defined the 23 product. For example, Aroclor 1242, that was a 24 particular industrial grade chemical. 25 Q. Do you know what the 12 meant on that? 30 STLCOPCB4025335 vi.-. ..- v.,.-. -, /,?-<a**t :f,^..`-.-1- - . ;' ' '- ........ -- -ft>i--- ^ . v....,:,., ;s;.?' V`T^ -- "lT ~ T' - .) i A. For certain of the Aroclors, and you'd have 2 to look at the specific products, the 12 indicated 3 that it contained 12 carbon atoms, and it was our ...4 internal nomenclature for polychlorinated biphenyls. 5 the 1200 series. These were for pure 6 polychlorinated biphenyls. 7 Q. Do you know what the 42 number meant? 8 A. For a certain of the 1200 series, and this 9 is not a generic universal name, but the last two 10 digits indicated the average percent chlorine in the 11 industrial grade mixture, so which was an * -12 ) \ , 13 SUSP .,- 1C identifying , jti&Jfg * i-: product. -'v^ 1 -v - v. ' v. Q. ui Do label of '? .v . you know name for that particular '........: V ' ' - ' V ' ' V ;;V r. . . - .... . whether Pydraul AC contained v : v- "' . ' /. - Aroclor 1254 ? v. , 16 A. .......I'd have to look it up because there are ' 17 lists of these things and I'm not sure. I just have 18 to look it up. 19 Q. Assume that it did, because what we have 20 seen says that was the Aroclor in Pydraul AC. What 21 would the 1254 have meant? 22 A. In that case it would have indicated it was 23 a polychlorinated biphenyl fluid that contained 54 24 percent chlorine on the average. J 25 Q. You know how many chlorine molecules were 31 STLCOPCB4025336 Svt'ra. 1 attached to the structure in 1254? 2 .......,A. Well, these are industrial grade fluids, so 3 Aroclor 54 is not a single component, it is a 4 distribution of components made by a chemical 5 reaction, but the average number of chlorines would 6 correspond to, I believe, five. 7 Q. So there would be some with more and some 8 with less? 9 A. Some with less. 10 Q. How would you test a substance to determine 11 whether it contained PCB's and what percentage of 12 chlorine or whether it had Aroclor 1254, 1242 or 13 some other kind of Aroclor? How would you test 14 ;ithat ? ' ^ s Tf-i"/:. . `' ' 15 MR. MONGE: You talking about any substance 16 or looking at this particular substance to 17 distinguish it from a 1242? 18 MR. BAKER: Maybe I should narrow that 19 down. 20 Q. (By Mr. Baker) First, in general terms, if 21 I have a truckload of dirt here and want you to 22 determine whether it has PCB's in it, what kind of 23 testing would you do? 24 A. Talking about today's time frame? 25 Q. Today, yes. 32 STLCOPCB4025337 . .: 1 A. Yeah, there are standard analytical tests 2 for various chemicals. These tests are generally 3 recommended by the ASTM, the American Society for 4 Testing Materials, which, again, is a private 5 society of the analysts who are involved in the 6 profession, who have developed standard protocols. 7 Most of these have been accepted by the federal 8 regulatory agencies as the standard methods of 9 preferred methods to use for testing. 10 For polychlorinated biphenyls there 11 are a number of standard tests, depending whether 12 it's soil, water or what not. Generally, it's done 13 by a chemical extraction or workup. This will vary, 14 depending on the media, and then the extract is - 15 analyzed by a gas chromatograph. 16 Q. How would you distinguish between Aroclor 17 1254, Aroclor 1242 or any other in the range of the 18 different PCB's? 19 A. These are distinguished by comparison with 20 a known authentic sample of the original material. 21 Q. If you had a truckload of dirt that had 22 been exposed to Aroclor 1254, would there be a 23 possibility of having changes within that sample 24 that would cause some of the tests to say that there 25 was 1242 or 1260 or any of the other numbers? 33 STLCOPCB4025338 'Zts$P&&&:ns . 1 A. There's an effect known as the weathering . ;..........._ 2 effect. If the material has been exposed to soil, 3 to microbes, to the elements; wind, rain, heat, what \...... 4 '' .5 B .............6 not, there will be some changes over the years. There are more sophisticated tests that you can do. Gas chromatograph coupled to a mass spectrometer in 7 comparison with specific individual peaks that are 8 in a sample, you wind up with a statistical 9 probability, what the sample is. What you generally 10 say though is if you have a truckload of soil that 11 this is like an Aroclor 1254 material, for example, r ^ >12 there were probably a dozen other kinds of PCB's ` ...............* BIS : A'.X: 1; manufactured in the world by other companies. These 14 -other companies didn't necessarily make samples of 15 - - - - "- * 16 - ' their material available for comparison. Monsanto ...did, and so the standard and the synonym has been V'VV. 17 kept in. But to tell whether it's an Aroclor 1254 18 or a Kaneclor 500, which is a Japanese product, and 19 Clophen 50, which is a German equivalent, you would 20 be hard pressed to tell the difference, but you 21 would say it is like an Aroclor 54. It has 22 predominately five chlorines from the distribution, 23 but these were different, and if you compared all 24 the samples of these, if you could get them, they J 25 would be different. 34 STLCOPCB4025339 1 Q. You have named two other products that you 2 said were made in other countries and similar to 3 1254. Are there others? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. Can you name any of those? 6 A. They were made in Spain, they were made in 7 Czechoslovakia, they were made in the iron curtain 8 countries. We don't even know the names of what 9 those were. They were just turning up now. But 10 Germany, Spain, France. Protolac. These are listed 11 in various EPA publications, in the NAB book, but 12 Germany, France, Spain Italy, Italian PCB' s, 13 Japanese, they were made world wide. 14 Q., So I guess if you went to the north pole..... 15 ,-and found a sample of ice that had something that 16 was similar to a 1254, you might say maybe that was 17 made by some other company? 18 A. You might say that. As a matter of fact, 19 PCB's have been found on islands. There are some 20 islands up in Michigan in the middle with no 21 industry. PCB's are carried strictly by air 22 currents around the world, no industrial contact, 23 and they have found PCB's from atmospheric 24 deposition on this island and all they can say is 25 it's PCB's. It might be like something -- they are 35 STLCOPCB4025340 *i.\>kfs*-. 1 not sure what they are because they are mixed and 2 mingled with the air and may have been around a half 3 a dozen times, and that is part of the scientific 4 dilemma. 5 Q. And to your knowledge is there any way to 6 test the sample you referred to on the island to 7 determine whether it came from Monsanto or from 8 Germany or Japan or whatever? 9 A. Not to my knowledge, but the standard that 10 is used is it's Aroclor-like and it's primarily - 11 because those are the standards that have been 12 available. Monsanto made standards available for 13 v.' (.. research world wide. 14 . j-. < Q. _ Ignoring the. iron curtain countries for a 15 /moment, outside the iron curtain countries do you 16 have an idea in general of what percentage of PCB's 17 were manufactured by Monsanto and what percentage 18 were manufactured in other countries? 19 MR. MONGE: If you know, and I assume 20 you're talking about -- I shouldn't ^assume anything, 21 I've done that too much, but that could have changed 22 over a period of time. There may still be some 23 production going on. I mean, if he knows, I'm glad 2 4 for him to answer. 25 A. That's hard to answer the question the way 36 STLCOPCB4025341 1 that it's framed. 2 ......, Q. (By Mr. Baker) Let me ask you a whole 3 bunch of little questions then. 4 Are you aware of any companies 5 manufacturing PCB's today? 6 A. Today I think I assume PCB's production 7 world wide has been stopped. 8 Q. Does that include the former iron curtain 9 countries ? 10 A. Yes, but that's strictly speculation. 11 Q. When did Monsanto cease production of 12 PCB's? ) 13 . A. 1977 . . / . Q. . When did Monsanto cease production of np* 15 16 Aroclor 1254? A. 1977 . 17 Q. Between 1977 and today were there other 18 countries that produced PCB's? 19 A. Yes, there were. 20 Q. To the extent that you know, tell us who 21 did it and for how long a period after 1977 they 22 did. 23 A. Most of the Europeans continued to produce 24 PCB's up until the mid-'80's. Germany may have ) 25 stopped first. The French and the Spanish 37 STLCOPCB4025342 1 purportedly produced PCB's up until the '87, '8888 2 time frame for sale world wide. 3 Q. Now, for the period from the beginning of 4 time through 1977, do you have a general idea of 5 what percentage of the world wide production of 6 PCB's was done by Monsanto and what percentage was 7 done by other companies? 8 A. No. Be hard to guess because -- the other 9 companies other than Monsanto, nobody has generally 10 published their world wide figures or provided their 11 information on PCB's even to the European common 12 market, the NATO, or to the World Health 13 Organization. The only hard numbers are Monsanto 14 numbers. 15 Q. If a plant in Kentucky used Pydraul AC for 16 15 years or more and samples were taken inside and 17 outside that plant and a substance that was similar 18 to Aroclor 1254 was found in several of those 19 samples and I were to ask you, what do you think the 20 source of that would have been, what would your 21 answer be? 22 MR. MONGE: Calls for speculation, but go 23 ahead. 24 A. Well, if they used Pydraul AC and if 25 Pydraul AC contains 1254, which I believe it does. 38 STLCOPCB4025343 /,V. 1 and they purchased Pydraul AC and you know what was 2 bought was in the drums, there is a high probability 3 that it's 1254. 4 Q. (By Mr. Baker) Could you personally try to 5 make a case that it wasn't a Monsanto product? 6 MR. MONGE: Object to that because that 7 calls for this witness to speculate on what he 8 personally would do, and I don't think we have -- I 9 don't think it's been raised. I don't think we 10 raised that as a defense, although there certainly 11 are areas very close to there that we have reason to 12 believe that there have been foreign PCB's used, but 13 we.haven't -- a 14 : .MR. ; BAKER: Are you instructing him not to 15 , answer., that question? 16 . MR. MONGE: No, he can answer for whatever 17 it's worth. 18 THE WITNESS: What's the question now? 19 Q. (By Mr. Baker) The question was: Based on 20 your knowledge, could you personally make a case, 21 using our hypothesis, that what was found was not a 22 Monsanto product? 23 A. You could always make a case. I think it 24 would be a case of how strong the scientific base 25 was. You would have to look at what the evidence 39 STLCOPCB4025344 1 was . 2 Q. I won't ask you any more about that, in any 3 event. 4 Do you know when Monsanto first 5 started manufacturing Pydraul? You said you thought 6 it was the mid-'50's or so. 7 MR. MONGE: Pydraul AC? 8 A. I don't know definitely. I think Pydraul 9 AC I think was about the mid-'50's, early '60's. 0 Q. (By Mr. Baker) Do you know when Monsanto 1 first started moving PCB's? 2 A. Monsanto bought Swan Chemical Company in 3 1935, so Monsanto assumed the manufacture of PCB's 4 ifrom Swan's plant and bought the Aroclor trademark 5 from Swan, so 1935 is the start date. 6 Q. And Swan had one plant that manufactured 7 PCB ' s? 8 A. That's correct. 9 Q. Where was that located? 0 A. Anniston, Alabama. . 1 Q. Do you know when that plant opened? 2 A. I believe 1929. 3 Q. And Monsanto acquired the entire Swan 4 Company or some portion of that? 5 MR. MONGE: If you know. 40 STLCOPCB4025345 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 ; 12 y- 13 4$mmmi^r--f 14 . - 4-.' ....' ' 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 A. I don't know. I've never seen a document. Q. (By Mr. Baker) That's fine. Now, Monsanto had another plant then where they manufactured PCB's, did they not? A. That's correct. Q. Just one additional plant? A. That's correct. Q. Where was that located? A. That was at Sauget, Illinois. Q. Is that just across the river from St. Louis? A. That's correct. Q. First, when did that plant open ; :: ' approximately? ' . ; A. I don't know when the plant opened. .' Q. Was it already open in '35 or sometime after the Swan plant? MR. MONGE: If you don't know - MR. BAKER: If you don't know, that's fine. A. I don't. Q. (By Mr. Baker) Do you know when Monsanto began producing PCB's in the Illinois plant? A. I don't know for a fact. About the time that the Anniston facility stopped, okay? 41 STLCOPCB4025346 :--.m l1***-'- .r.. ......~y;p. :: VjV 1 Q. To your knowledge, for most of the time 2 between 1935 and 1977, Monsanto had one plant 3 producing PCB's? 4 MR. MONGE: Let me just say that you can go 5 ahead and answer that but you probably would get a 6 better answer to that kind of question from 7 Mr. Papageorge. 8 MR. BAKER: I'll just wait until tomorrow. 9 I don't want to put you on the spot on something you 10 don't know about. 11 Q. (By Mr. Baker) Are you familiar with the 12 uses of Pydraul AC? 13 A. From reading in the literature. 14 Q.r; In general, what was Pydraul AC used for? 15 A. Pydraul AC was generally sold for use as a 16 compressor lubricant. 17 Q. Was there also other uses? 18 A. It was used for other things but I think 19 its primary use was as a compressor lubricant. It 20 may have been used as a lubricant fox other types of 21 equipment. Sometimes customers would use the same 22 fluid for various other pieces of equipment. 23 Q. What was the major selling point for 24 Pydraul AC that distinguished it from other 25 lubricants ? 42 STLCOPCB4025347 1 A. Safety, flame resistance, fire safety, 2 resistance to explosion. 3 Q. For companies who began using Pydraul AC as 4 a lubricant, what kind of lubricants did it replace? 5 A. Generally hydrocarbon lubricants. 6 Q. Petroleum base products for the most part? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. And Pydraul AC was a synthetic replacement 9 for petroleum-based lubricants? 10 A. Synthetic is a hard definition in chemistry 11 to come by because hydrocarbon lubricants are 12 synthetic. They are made from crude oil. PCB's raw 13 materials come from crude oil but it replaced 14 Jstraight hydrocarbons with just carbon and hydrogen 15 molecules which have a tendency to burn readily, 16 explode. 17 Q. But Pydraul AC was much more stable than 18 the products it replaced? 19 A. Absolutely. 20 Q. And that was the major selling points for 21 it? 22 A. Absolutely. 23 Q. From the beginning I assume that Monsanto 24 understood that Pydraul AC was a very stable 25 product, would you not say? 43 STLCOPCB4025348 ' "* !p _1 MR. MONGE: If you know. ;___ ____ 2 .......... A. Have from the very beginning. I don't 3 know, I was not involved in it. I assume so, but I 4 don't know. 5 Q. (By Mr. Baker) But at least when they 6 began making Pydraul AC and selling it as a 7 substitute for less stable petroleum-based products 8 they used, that it was much more stable? 9 A. From my reading, okay, of the literature 10 and the records that we have, Pydraul AC was 11 developed in response to request from the gas - 12 : industry for a much safer flame-resistant, -v--'.^ -;' -:^ ' 1A .. xtA&ji&i- A " #' ..x..*"I>.vr -i<<ijHtL.'.^rjn:.i'fi'-',, '- ;.-*-;vj; A&^sStmiisSs;^.& flip explosive-resistant lubricant because of several ^catastrophic4 events that happened at compressor ; stations. v. ' - - v Q. Do you know whether there were any studies . 17 done prior to 1966 by Monsanto concerning the 18 biodegradability of Pydraul AC or PCB's in general? 19 A. I don't know. 20 Q. You don't know if there weren't any, but - 21 A. I don't know if they were or there 22 weren't. Biodegradability studies, by the way, 23 weren't routine studies that were done until some 24 point in time, and I don't know what that was. J 25 Might have been the '70's or something, but they 44 STLCOPCB4025349 ' '.............. fr > 1 were not a standard of the industry. 2 ______ Q. Do you know what studies, if any, were done 3 by Monsanto prior to 1966 concerning the potential 4 adverse health effects of Pydraul? 5 A. I don't know of specific studies, no. 6 Q. Do you know of any studies done prior to 7 1966 concerning potential adverse health effects of 8 PCB's in general? 9 A. Yes. PCB's in general, but specifically 10 Monsanto Aroclor PCB's, the industrial grades as 11 manufactured by Monsanto, which means these are the 12 things that are manufactured from the plant 13 production line stuff, these things were tested for 14 acute;health effects, Up until 1970 it's my 15 understanding that ac ute screens had been done, 16 chronic health effect s, up throu gh long-term animal 17 feeding studies had b een done on some species, 18 Q. Do you know when those began? 19 A. Late ' 60 ' s - - late '60' s I would guess, 20 Q. Do you know of any such studies that were 21 done prior to 1966? 22 A. I couldn't s ay. I don' t know if there were 23 or there weren't. 24 Q. We talked ab out biodegr adability. Is it 25 biodegradability or i s there ano ther term. 45 STLCOPCB4025350 1 biodegradation? ......_........ 2 . A. Both terms are used, biodegradability or 3 biodegradation. 4 Q. Do you know if prior to 1970 Monsanto had 5 -V g done biodegradation studies on any other chemicals? A. I don't know. 7 Q. Do you know anything about profitability of 8 PCB's and Pydraul AC? 9 A. No. 10 Q. That takes care of a whole bunch of questions. r '.v ^ 12 .. " ` A. I'm not as old as I look. : product when I became involved. This was a gone Qrufs I'm not as old as I look either. I believe .you mentioned gas chromatography earlier -- - - A. ' ' Yes. '' : ' ' 17 Q. -- in some of our questions about how we 18 determine what was in a sample. When was that 19 developed? 20 A. It's hard to say. The first gas 21 chromatograph that I personally used was when I was 22 at graduate school -- when was that? 1958 to 1961, 23 so gas chromatography was in its infancy in 1960, 24 and the first reports of gas chromatography were J> 25 probably in the early 1960's. 46 STLCOPCB4025351 ***>*: Q. Do you know or have you read anything that would tell you when Monsanto first received notice that PCB's had been found in tissue samples? A. Yes, from my reading and discussions at Monsanto there was a report from Sweden. Some Swedish researchers had found PCB's in the tissues of either some fish or some birds. They were looking for DDT and found an unknown -- Q. Would that have been an article published in The New Scientist magazine about 1966? A. That sounds reasonable, by Soren Jensen. Q. And you were at that time I believe a work group leader, not quite a group leader II? A .S;-:: Ir was ' barely at Monsanto at that time. That was in 1966. Q. Was that something that was discussed at your level at all during that period? A. I don't recall that. Q. What's the basis for your knowledge of the 1966 report? A. From reading the history of PCB's and the available records and files of Monsanto and the EPA and the National Academy of Sciences and the published material that's available. Q. Is that something that has occurred since 47 STLCOPCB4025352 ygS i-: 1 1970 or were you familiar with it before 1970? 2 A. No, that's occurred since I took this 3 function in 1980. 4 Q. Do you know or have you read in company 5 documents or learned from other persons at the 6 company what Monsanto's response was to that 1966 7 study? 8 A. Yes, from reading Monsanto's reports and 9 reports that Monsanto made to various federal 10 regulatory agencies, Monsanto discussed it 11 internally, and I think that people from Monsanto's 12 laboratories and St. Louis offices actually went to 13 Sweden to try to talk to Jensen to try to work with 14 qr.him.~..to;i determine what the peaks were and so forth. 15 We might have even provided him samples of material 16 to use for his comparative analytical studies. 17 Q. Do you know whether Monsanto conducted any 18 studies on its own? 19 A. I don't know specifically what studies 20 Monsanto did or did not do. I just .don't know. 21 Q. Would Papageorge know about that? 22 A. Mr. Papageorge would know. I think he was 23 the man who was involved at that time. 24 Q. Was Dr. Kelly involved at all at that time? 25 A. Dr. Kelly was the medical director at that 48 STLCOPCB4025353 1 time, so he would probably have known. 2 Q. During that time period from 1966 through 3 1970, after the report out of Sweden Monsanto 4 continued producing PCB's and Pydraul AC, did it 5 not ? 6 A. From what time frame? 7 Q. From 1966 through 1970. 8 A. Through 1966 to a point in 1970. There's a 9 point in 1970 when Monsanto voluntarily stopped 0 selling PCB's for certain type uses, which included 1 the lubricant uses. These were defined as open 2 uses . 3 ,, . QJ ,V Up to that point where you started 4 Sdiscontinuing,production for certain uses between 5 1966 and 1970, in that time period did Monsanto take 6 ;any other steps either to protect its workers -- 7 first let's talk about protecting workers first. 8 Did Monsanto take any additional steps 9 to protect it's workers from PCB exposure. To the 0 extent that he knows and has read, X have no problem 1 with him answering, but, again, I think that those 2 kinds of questions, you are going to get much better 3 information out of Mr. Papageorge. But having said 4 that, he can certainly answer to the extent of his 5 knowledge. 49 STLCOPCB4025354 $') 1 A. I don't know of any specific different 2 actions that were taken because the plants required 3 certain precautions for chlorinated organic 4 chemicals, and PCB's was created as a chlorinated 5 organic chemical and those safeguards were adequate. 6 Q. (By Mr. Baker) You don't know of any 7 safeguards between '66 and '70? 8 A. I don't know of any other. 9 Q. Do you know of any warnings to customers 10 made between 1966 and, let's say, the beginning, the 11 end of 1969? 12 A. I don't know -- I don't know specifically 13 in those days, no. 14 ......Q. Then you indicated that things started to 15 change in 1970? 16 A . Correct. 17 Q . Ultimately that led to discontinuing PCB 18 use f or some uses? 19 A . Correct. 20 Q . Can you tell us when that process started 21 and, to your knowledge, what occurred along the way ? 22 A . Until the discontinued use? 23 Q . Yes . 24 A . From my reading, Monsanto was concerned 25 about the reports of environmental persistence. 50 STLCOPCB4025355 1 That was a new issue at the time. This was not an 2 issue that the scientific community was even aware 3 of or had been concerned with before. 4 Q. Environmental what? 5 A. Persistence. This means lack of 6 degradation. It just remains. PCB's weren't a 7 stable compound. It was designed to be a stable 8 compound, to be chemically inert so it wouldn't burn 9 readily, it would not explode, but in 20/20 10 hindsight you said, well, it should be persistent. 11 But from the time of the first reports it was a very active program in the Monsanto research community and that there was a function -- I don't know the i.title, of the function at the time. We call it ;product acceptability now, which it's a manager who is responsible for communicating health and safety 17 results for signet products, seeing that products 18 are acceptable according to the standards in place 19 by the public and the professional or technical 20 groups or regulatory groups at the time. They have 21 begun to look at this quite closely. 22 I know that Mr. Papageorge made 23 several trips to talk to people who had reported 24 these things. Monsanto searched the literature to 25 see what, if any, reports were available. When the 51 STLCOPCB4025356 5^0*1 i;ij' - '-j 'a**.'***! .. : V............. ;Sfri .V.'. \.~ ' .. 1 concern about chlorinated organic chemicals being 2 persistent came up, DDT was the prime question at 3 this time. This was about the time of Rachel 4 Carson's book Silent Spring. This was the first 5 published -- first major published piece of 6 literature that questioned the persistence of 7 chlorinated chemicals in the environment. 8 There were groups that were formed 9 within the scientific community that Monsanto 10 participated in. I know Mr. Papageorge represented 11 Monsanto with a group called The Interagency Task 12 Force on PCB's which was formed by the U. S. 13 Government and industry which included all of the 14 ... government agencies that were available at the 15 time. EPA I don't think was in force at this time, 16 and these started meeting in 1970; scientists from 17 industry, from the government, and I ought to 18 include Department of Commerce, FDA, USDA, it's just 19 an alphabet soup of government agencies, but this 20 report's available. , 21 Mr. Papageorge was there and 22 represented Monsanto. All the information that 23 Monsanto had on testing, anything that we had, and 24 this is published in their report at this time. 25 Q. Approximately when was that? 52 STLCOPCB4025357 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 . 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A. The meetings began roughly in 1970, maybe '69, about that time frame. The report was finished in May of 1972. Drafts were out in '71. Typical of a government report, it takes however long it takes to get the thing printed and published, but Monsanto participated in all these scientific discussions. Monsanto made the decision unilaterally that if there was concern about PCB's building up in the environment, that it was persistent, that they would take what steps that were available to prevent its buildup until we could determine if there was any harm. There was, and there still is, a question within the scientific community as to what, if any, harm is caused by .PCB's persistence from the environment. Health effects were not the question at the time. And so Monsanto took steps to limit sales of PCB's, what they've defined as open uses, and this has since crept, by the way, into the regulatory life of the Toxic Substances Control Act. Monsanto limited sales of PCB's for any open uses. They continued sales for only totally enclosed uses, which were certain electrical applications and transformers which were defined as being closed, and electrical capacitors which were 53 STLCOPCB4025358 defined as being closed. Monsanto considered at the time totally stopping manufacturing PCB's until -- Q. Was this in 1970? A. This time frame, '70 to '72, but at the request of the U. S. Government and electrical manufacturers Monsanto continued to manufacture PCB's for electrical uses because they were afraid they would totally shut down electric power distribution in this country because PCB's came in with the electrification of America. To distribute electrical power you almost had to have PCB's in the equipment or for safety and for flame resistance. - So as a result of these meetings and '.tall;Monsanto restricted PCB's sales to only what was ^defined as totally enclosed uses, and this is documented in the Interagency Task Force report. As a matter of fact, Russell Trayne, who came in as the first administrator of the EPA, said -- I don't know if it's in this report or a subsequent report, that Monsanto took steps which no agency in the U. S. Government had the authority to do to limit sales and use of this chemical at this time. Q. Your first limiting of the use, did that have anything to do with processing of food or preparation of food? 54 STLCOPCB4025359 1 A. No. PCB's were industrial chemicals. They 2 generally weren't sold for use with food products to 3 my knowledge. When you say for food products you 4 haven't defined what you mean. 5 MR. MONGE: If you've got a specific fluid 6 in mind, that might be helpful to him. 7 A. Pydrauls were not sold for food products. 8 Q. (By Mr. Baker) I understand that. What is 9 Therminol? 10 A. Therminol is a registered trademark of 11 Monsanto Company for flame-resistant heat transfer 12 fluids. 13 Q. Was there more than one Therminol? 14 A. Yes, and there is more than one family of 15 Therminols. To help you out, there is a Therminol 16 FR system and there's the Therminol system. 17 Q. Did some or all of those contain PCB's? 18 A. Therminols? 19 Q. Yes. 20 A. Therminols do not contain PCB's. 21 Q. Any Therminols at all? 22 A. Just the trademark Therminol is not a PCB. 23 Q. Any products that included Therminol that 24 have PCB's in them? 25 A. Therminol FR contained PCB's. Therminol 55 STLCOPCB4025360 Iw?**?* 1 flame resistance -- I'm not trying to play games, 2 .just trying to educate you, but the Therminol 3 trademark is alive and used today. They don't 4 contain any PCB's. They are the standard of the 5 industry for safety and for flame resistance, and 6 the Therminol heat and transfer fluid trademark is 7 alive, sold today, every day, used all over the 8 world. 9 Q. But there was a fire-resistant Therminol 10 that did contain PCB's? 11 A. That was manufactured and sold up until 12 about 1970, that's correct. 13 Q. And was that used at all in the preparation 14 of; foods? : ., . ... . - - * . 15 A. There were food processors who used heat 16 transfer fluids in the processing of foods 17 preparation. I don't know how broadly you construe 18 that. 19 Q. I don't mean to be difficult at all. It 20 was used in the processing of foods?, 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. And was it your testimony that Monsanto 23 stopped selling Therminol with PCB's in 1970, 24 approximately 1970? 25 A. Monsanto stopped selling Therminol FR which 56 STLCOPCB4025361 contained PCB's in roughly 1977, in that time frame. There was a phaseout period and in roughly 1970 Monsanto announced that there was an environment persistence problem; they were working on what to do, and in this time frame from roughly 1970 to early '72 or late '71 all these open used products that contained PCB's sales were stopped. Is that a good enough answer? Q. That's good enough for that question, thank you. What did Monsanto tell its customers who had been buying Therminol FR about this change? A. I don't recall the specifics. The first -notices were when the environmental persistence came out;and.Monsanto notified customers in general of products that contained PCB's, okay, that PCB's had been found in the environment and might have even mentioned in Sweden that they were thought to build up like DDT were and that Monsanto was going to look into this and that probably some general -- I don't know if it's -- general warnings like don't get it on the ground, treat it like industrial chemicals. Q. Were there any such warning letters before 1970? A. To my knowledge there were a group of letters that were sent in the early '70's. I can't 57 STLCOPCB4025362 1 say as to what was done before that. 2 ........MR. MONGE: Again, go ahead and get the 3 information you can out of him, Mike, but I think 4 Mr. Papageorge will give you more. 5 MR. BAKER: I believe you. 6 Q. (By Mr. Baker) I don't want you to try to 7 answer anything you don't know the answer to, but 8 like I told you in the beginning, we're starting 9 from scratch here. 10 What's your familiarity with the 11 series of warning letters -- or, I'm sorry, series 12 of letters that went to customers concerning PCB's 13 in Monsanto products? 14 . ; A. I have read these as a historical 15 document. I don't recall the specifics of the 16 number or the contents of these things but I have - 17 at one time I have read these. 18 Q. You weren't involved at all in the decision 19 to send them? 20 A. No, these were in the '70' s,. I only became 21 involved in the '80's. 22 Q. Are you familiar with labeling of Pydraul 23 AC? 24 A. Yes, I have read the historical files of 25 the labeling of various products. 58 STLCOPCB4025363 r ini fliVTMiiiofflifti i mn'ir'n''~ri^ti "i - W w--i.!* *'-*- * ' :a-(7`. . *W?fy ;.::y j=-'.;;' .. "~Y ' 1 ...2 Q Was there ever a label on Pydraul AC containers that mentioned PCB? 3 A. I don't know. I can't answer ever. 4 Q. Have you seen any Pydraul AC label that 5 mentioned PCB? 6 A. I don't know that I've ever seen a Pydraul 7 AC label, period. 8 Q. Do you know if other Pydraul products had 9 labels that mentioned PCB's? 10 A. At what time frame? 11 Q. First, at any time, and then we'll try to 12 S' 1* 13 narrow it down. .... MR. MONGE: If you don't know, just tell .14; .-v^.--.^< * <>v > j .' , /, ^^...15 him. you don't know, John. |:A . I really don't know specifically. . -'-V ' 16 ; 17 MR. MONGE: MR. BAKER: How about a five-minute break? Let's take a five-minute 18 break. 19 (A brief recess was taken.) 20 Q. (By Mr. Baker) Do you knov? a man by the 21 name of Cumming Paton or Paton? 22 A. Yes, I've met him. 23 Q. Do you know if he's still alive? 24 A. I believe he's still alive and I believe he ) 25 still works for Monsanto. 59 STLCOPCB4025364 Q. So you believe he lives in the St. Louis 2 area? 3 A. I don't know. He was in the International 4 Division. I don't know where in the world he is 5 now. 6 Q. I don't guess you know what his position is 7 with the company now either? 8 A. Today, I don't know. 9 Q. Do you know in the early to mid-'70's what 10 ; 11 _- .. . .... ' 12; his position was with the company? A. I don't know his exact title at that time. ` Q. Do you know in general what he did? . A. He was involved with PCB's, whether it was X j:':' S-k-r..^ -15 . "product market or management or marketing or what not, but he was involved with PCB's in the '70's .... 16 time frame. 17 Q. We have premarked a number of exhibits and 18 they are not in order. We use them in depositions 19 but they have our marks on them and I suppose the 20 court reporter may want to use some other 21 identifying mark, but this is a document we have 22 marked as Plaintiff's Exhibit 2. 23 I'll ask you first if you are familiar 24 with this document. ) 25 MR. MONGE: Take your time, take a look at 60 STLCOPCB4025365 .,'-,V's.:./..;-. - -r ' : *: "'V-r** 7 **. ";.* 1 it. Why don't we use his marks, and if we end up 2 with missing numbers, if they are not there, they 3 will use your markings. 4 MR. BAKER: We will guarantee we will have 5 missing numbers. 6 A. I don't remember this document specifically 7 but the contents are familiar and the attachment 8 I've seen and some of the historical files. 9 Q. (By Mr. Baker) Let me just quickly go 10 through the names on here since you're our first 11 witness and tell me what you know about these 12 persons; what their job was then, whether they still )^~y. 1 3 ' iitl4:i worked for the company. 'fefe'iv -:-y.hr:. .:h-\ - You already ' know about ' Papageorge. ' v-A >.,-- 15 "' 16 J. F. Stapleton? A. Stapleton was in the Law Department at that 17 time. He may have been the head of the 18 Environmental Section. 19 Q. Do you know if he's still living and/or 20 working with Monsanto? ; 21 A. I think he's dead. 22 Q. P. S. Park has a hyphen and something else 23 there. I thought maybe an address. 24 A. E Building was the law building, probably J 25 was an address. He was -- he retired several years 61 STLCOPCB4025366 vr, ; 1 ago. He was the environmental counsel at the time 2 he retired. 3 Q. To your knowledge is he still living? 4 A. As far as I know. 5 Q. T. O. Gossage? 6 A. He's retired from Monsanto Company. I 7 think he's CEO of Hercules Company. 8 Q. You know what his position was with 9 Monsanto roughly in 1973? 10 A. He was in Marketing. Could have been 11 either director of sales or director of marketing. 12 Q. W. N. Maddox? 13 A. I don't know him, no. 14 , ,.Q. Then there are a number of persons down 15 here that this Cumming Paton memo was sent to. 16 Let's just run through the list and quickly identify 17 those to the extent that you can. 18 J. Armentor? 19 A. Don't know him. 20 Q. R. S. Bevacqua? 21 A. He was a salesman. ; 22 Q. Boutin or Boutin? 23 A. Don't know him. 24 Q. J. G. Bryant? 25 A. He was a salesman. 62 STLCOPCB4025367 1 Q. R. J. Christman? 2 .......... A. No. 3 Q. C. L. Clay? 4 A. No. 5 Q. P. D. Craska? 6 A. No. 7 Q. H. R. Ford? 8 A. I think he was a salesman. 9 Q. Are there any names you see on here who are 10 persons other than salesmen? 11 A. I would imagine this was the sales force, 12 just from the office addresses at that time, you 13 know. Salesmen change. 14 . . Q. And you did not get a copy of this memo at 15 that time? You've just seen parts of it. 16 A. At this time I was doing other things. 17 Probably Hydrocarbons Division. 18 Q. I'll ask that be identified but we're not 19 moving to admit it. 20 Show you a document we have marked as 21 Plaintiff's Exhibit 3, which is a document that was 2 2 produced by you in response to our request for 23 production of documents. 24 MR. MONGE: By "you," meaning Monsanto? 25 MR. BAKER: Monsanto. My first question 63 STLCOPCB4025368 _____._____jftaWilijrtfc* --Si ' > *- -....?,,,; .-?:=?=> = -v :F -r-'-^s^: 1 is: Is there a better copy somewhere? 2 MR. MONGE: I don't know. I expect there 3 might be but I don't know that. What that says is 4 -- help me out. Log of PCB incineration letters, 5 customers, and Monsanto something, and I know that, 6 Mike, because I've asked that same question. 7 MR. BAKER: I would ask on the record if 8 you find one that's a better copy, would you please 9 produce one for us? 10 MR. MONGE: I think the rest of the 11 document, from my review of it, is legible. The 12 ) .......... 13 only illegible part of it that I have had trouble with was the same thing you did, and that was the 4 ; cover sheet: If we can find something better, I 15 -will, but I don't know that there is anything else. 16 \ Q. (By Mr. Baker) Mr. Craddock, I will ask 17 you if you are familiar with this document. 18 A. I don't think I've ever seen this before. 19 Q. I will not ask any further questions about 20 it. Let me ask you a general question about the 21 documents. 22 Who were the persons responsible for 23 putting together the documents in response to our 24 request for production of documents? ) 25 A. The Law Department staff. 64 STLCOPCB4025369 ife 1 Q. Were you involved at all in putting them 2 together? 3 A. I read the questions and the answers and 4 what not and looked at some of the things that were 5 put together, but I did not - 6 MR. BAKER: I will ask, is there someone 7 with the Law Department staff who will be available 8 to answer questions about where these came from or 9 do they all claim some kind of privilege? 10 MR. MONGE: I don't know the answer to that 11 at this time, so I'll defer that, but I will respond 12 to you on that. That's about the best I can tell 13 :C; you at this time, Mike. 14 . ji . , MR. BAKER: Mr. Craddock, if you were not 15 involved in putting together the documents and if 16 you were not in a position when most of these 17 documents in the '60's and early '70's were prepared 18 and circulated, I don't think I will waste your time 19 in going through each of those and asking you 20 questions about them. , 21 I will say that we may try many of 22 them with Mr. Papageorge tomorrow, but at some point 23 we will like to have someone produced who can 24 respond to questions about these documents. 25 MR. MONGE: Again, I'll withhold response 65 STLCOPCB4025370 !^pBV! **** ViWiilil- 5**7 H- 1 to that other than to say I rather suspect that on 2 many of the documents that you will receive answers 3 from Mr. Papageorge that will probably satisfy your 4 inquiries on those. 5 Q. (By Mr. Baker) Are you familiar with a 6 condition known as chloracne? 7 A. Yes, I've heard of chloracne and I've read 8 some about it. 9 Q. What is chloracne? 10 A. Chloracne is a very special severe case of 11 acne. It's almost a misnomer according to 12 physicians that I've talked to. It's caused by 13 exposure to certain types of chlorinated chemicals. 14 : It's pustules that resemble teenage acne, except 15 it's much more severe. 16 Q. Has there been a problem with workers or 17 was there a problem with workers who manufactured 18 PCB's developing chloracne? 19 A. From the literature in the early '30's 20 there were some reports of some skir* problems of 21 some plant workers. That's about the only report 22 that I know of that's published. 23 Q. This may be a futile gesture but I'll ask 24 you if you know of any steps Monsanto took to study 25 that problem and to attempt to remedy it. 66 STLCOPCB4025371 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14; 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 MR. MONGE: Let me just object to the question on the basis that his early activity was in the early '30's and I believe the incident he's referring to was prior to Monsanto's ownership of the Swan Chemical facility. With that objection and clarification, he can answer, if he knows. A. Dr. Kelly was involved with some material and it's my recollection just from reading the literature and was about the transition of the plant from Swan to Monsanto that there were some workers who had some skin problems and there was some studies that were done I believe at Harvard or somewhere that Monsanto instigated and sponsored and this information is published in the open literature. It's my understanding from reading the literature it was more of a personal hygiene problem rather than a specific PCB problem. It's very hard to determine what it was. If you read the literature, they talk about PCB's ai>d other things such as chlornaphthalenes which are much more -- other chlorinated compounds with impurities are much more known to cause severe problems that you have. PCB's are not really considered by most physicians that I've talked to to cause chloracne. They cause 67 STLCOPCB4025372 1 some skin ra sh but it's n ot as severe as chloracne. 2 If you talk to a dermatologist, there 3 are a couple who say they have only see seen one or 4 two cases of chloracne in their whole career. 5 Chlorinated hydrocarbons in general 6 can give some people allergic reaction. For 7 instance, people that can't wear suits that are dry 8 cleaned, they get the same type of thing. They get 9 the red rashes and what not, but that's not 10 chloracne. But it's not the severe pustules stuff, 11 so there's some misunderstanding and misthought 12 about what chloracne is. There are some reports in 13 the literature, and Dr. Kelly would be involved with 14 that. /: 15 Q. Is it the position of Monsanto that PCB's, 16 particularly the more highly concentrated 1254 or 17 1260, that they do not cause potential health 18 problems ? 19 MR. MONGE: Let me object to the form of 20 the question. You used the term "highly 21 concentrated," and I - 22 MR. BAKER: If I change it to "more 23 concentrated" would that change the objection? 24 MR. MONGE: No, it really wouldn't, because 25 I'm not sure what that means in terms of that 68 STLCOPCB4025373 in SUflAl Wv y ~4J. .......v.- r.;: 1 question, but he may know. 2 ....... A. , Let me help you, okay? Aroclors are all 3 highly concentrated. Aroclors are a hundred percent 4 PCB's. They are just different fractions, okay? 5 They are different products, okay? So all Aroclors 6 are highly concentrated. 7 Q. (By Mr. Baker) What I mean is with more 8 chlorine content is what I mean. 9 Is it the position of Monsanto that 10 Aroclor 1254 is not hazardous to human health or 11 does Monsanto agree that there are potential health 12 13 14 hazards to 1254? -h-.;, si' - y yy,. v;.".y -.'yy-y . MR. MONGE: To the extent the question .................................................... . . . . i-r.-i---.. ...... . ^e answered in that form, you may answer it. can 15 ' '..-V 16 Understanding that he's just -- it's a general '? ,.y question. 17 A. It's Monsanto's position, and it's my 18 professional position, that PCB' s are no more 19 hazardous to human health than any other chlorinated 20 organic chemical. This is based upon published 21 health studies, epidemiological reviews done 22 primarily in government and university laboratories 23 where they've collected extensive data on 24 occupational exposed workers. These are the most 25 exposed people, exposed a 40-hour work week, some of 69 STLCOPCB4025374 1 them as long as 20 or 30 years in manufacturing 2 facilities other than Monsanto plants, primarily 3 because Monsanto manufacturing facilities, they are 4 closed units. There are places that these are used 5 in other manufacturing facilities where people 6 actually come into daily skin contact and based upon 7 the published information and the health studies 8 that's available in the literature, it's our 9 position that PCB's are no more harmful to human 10 health than other chlorinated hydrocarbons, and -- 11 Q. Okay, does Monsanto take the position as to 12 13 whether Aroclor 1254 is more or less biodegradable V'.-.::. --../T*;V .......... ' ;than other chlorinated hydrocarbons? ..... 14 A. y It's a generally accepted principle of 15 ;chemistry and science that the more chlorine content 16 on the specific molecule, the less biodegradable 17 that it is, so we believe that chlorinated 18 hydrocarbons, including PCB's, are biodegradable to 19 a certain extent. It's just a question of a 20 chemical reaction. , 21 For years people said PCB's don't 22 biodegrade and we now know that's wrong. And the 23 EPA is trying to write into the regulations 24 technologies to allow bioremediation of contaminated 25 soil. It's a question of reaction. And it's a 70 STLCOPCB4025375 ' . -t. . . ' i*. V-'.J -.j. . 1 generally accepted principle of science that the 2 higher the chlorine, the slower the rate. 3 Q. And Aroclor 1254 has a high chlorine level? 4 A. Well, it's higher than 48 but it's less 5 than 60 or 68. It's intermediate. 6 Q. If special biodegradation efforts are not 7 made, how long does it take for Aroclor 1254 to 8 biodegrade ? 9 A. This is a subject of conjecture because 10 biodegradation is a function of the natural 11 microorganisms in the soil and the local conditions, 12 but it's a generally accepted principle in 13 regulatory agencies, for instance, that monochloro 14: ; biphenyls degrades -- has a half-life, say, of the 15 order of days. A dichloro is the order of weeks. A 16 trichloro biphenyl is the order of months, the time 17 it takes for half of it to decrease. When you get 18 higher than that, it moves up to the order of 19 years. And these haven't been characterized because 20 it's harder to make those measurements but this is 21 the way the scientific theory is evolving. I don't 22 think there's a published number for 1254, which 23 would be essentially a penta, a five chlorine 24 average. 25 Q. As you increase that, it is not a 71 STLCOPCB4025376 mathematical progression, it's more a geometrical progression; is it not? MR. MONGE: Objection, unless you - A. That's hard to define. It's just inherent in the chemistry of the beast. You'd actually have to make the measurements to see. Q. (By Mr. Baker) Do you have an opinion as to the half-life of Aroclor 1254 under ordinary conditions? I know that's a general phrase and may draw an objection, but I - MR. MONGE: It will draw an objection because it is a general phrase and he has indicated -that in many;cases, in all cases, it depends upon the;nature of the local terrain, the condition of the. soil and so forth. With that objection and trying to keep things going here, if he can answer it. A. It's the order of years, okay? Whether the half-life is five or 10 years, I don't think those measurements have been made, but it would vary because of local conditions. Q. (By Mr. Baker) Have you seen any studies that would give us estimates under any conditions? A. There are beginning to be, in the literature, published studies. I don't know whether 72 STLCOPCB4025377 a* r;rp^fxi\x:: -Vr 1 they've actually put half-lives to these or not but 2 there are studies in the Hudson River published by 3 General Electric Company, but I don't recall any 4 half-lives of being -- 5 Q. Does Monsanto acknowledge that there are 6 plants such as perhaps the Kentucky Hydrocarbon 7 Plant in Kentucky -- and I'm not asking you to speak 8 specifically to that, but do you acknowledge that 9 there are plants where PCB's are in the soil? 10 A. Yes, there are places where PCB's are in 11 the soil from spills, accidents and so forth. 12 Q. Do you acknowledge that there are places 13 where PCB's have escaped through the normal use of 14 the product? . 15 MR. MONGE: Object to the term "normal use 16 of the products." And I think in fairness to the 17 witness, Mike, that normal use of the product would 18 include all kinds of things because PCB's, as you 19 know, were used in many different settings and I 20 think in fairness to him you ought to pin that down 21 a little bit more specific, but he can answer. I'll 22 let him answer. 23 A. I'll answer with a qualifier. For 24 instance, today PCB's are allowed to be used for the / 25 rest of their useful life in electrical transformers 73 STLCOPCB4025378 m ||P| r^'-j... r->~: 1 and capacitors under certain conditions. Their 2 normal use is hanging on a pole. Every time there 3 is a lightning storm these things escape because if 4 lightning hits one of those things EPA says that's 5 not a spill, nobody spilled it. Under normal use 6 conditions, material ruptured, whatever it was, and 7 it contaminated the ground under it, and so that's a 8 f act. 9 Q. (By Mr. Baker) In such instances where the 10 ground is found to be contaminated by PCB's, is it 11 Monsanto's position that there should be some effort 12 undertaken to clean that up? iM 13 , A. Yes. ; ~ ' ' 14 ,:vi. Q. So while you don't admit that there are 15 health risks from it, you do agree that where there : 16 are spills, they should be cleaned up? 17 A. It's required by federal regulations. 18 Q. But aside from the question of federal 19 regulations. 20 A. We would clean up PCB's as ,we would clean 21 up any other industrial chemical, you know. At our 22 plant we have plant safety and maintenance practice 23 codes that require that if we spill water our men 24 are required to clean that up to certain standards, 25 you know. If they spill anything they are required 74 STLCOPCB4025379 ... 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 ; ;* 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 to maintain that area. Q. The cleanup for PCB's is generally a little more complicated than cleaning up water though; is it not? A. In some cases, yes. Q. And more expensive? A. In some cases. Q. Does Monsanto have a position as to who should be responsible for paying for the cleanup of spills of PCB's? MR. MONGE: Object to that; instruct him not to answer. That calls for a legal conclusion and this witness will not be allowed to answer that. Q. (By Mr. Baker) To prove that we are going to have some exhibits that are numbered, for the time being I'll show you a document that's marked as Plaintiff's Exhibit 13 and ask you if you are familiar in general with this kind of document, and then specifically with this particular one. A. I am familiar with this type of document. I have probably seen a form of this 54. Yes, I'm familiar with this type of -- Q. First, what is an MSDS? A. Sheet. MSDS is an acronym for Material Safety Data 75 STLCOPCB4025380 ........ x.-.V-f-X'-. *r-i- ` -f- 1 Q. And with whom were those required to be 2 filed?............ 3 A. I don't think they are required to be filed 4 with anybody. They were required to be prepared, 5 and the regulation on these have changed and I can't 6 tell you exactly what they were. 7 In the original days when OSHA started 8 you were required to have Material Safety Data 9 Sheets in your plant for materials that were in your 10 plant primarily for the use of workers or anybody 11 who was in the area who wanted to see what chemicals 12 they might become involved in, what was known about 13 them, so I guess to qualify my answer, you were 14 supposed to..keep: a file of them in your own 15 facility. , . r^ 16 Q. And what kinds of facilities were required 17 to keep a set of these documents? 18 A. I think anybody who used these chemicals. 19 If you used certain chemicals or ingredients in your 20 facility, anything from things like.floor cleaning 21 materials, if they contained certain chemicals or 22 gasoline, you had to have them as well as other 23 industrial chemicals. 24 Q. This is a document Monsanto produced to us 25 in response to our request for production of 76 STLCOPCB4025381 1 documents. I will ask you if this is the MSDS sheet 2 for Aroclor 1254 at Monsanto. If you can tell me 3 the date. There are different dates on here. 4 A. It's my understanding from reading this, 5 okay, this is a Material Safety Data Sheet for this 6 particular product. The trade name is Aroclor 7 1254. It was prepared in May of 1971 according to a 8 certain OSHA format, okay? 9 Q. And on the second page of that about half 10 way down. Section 7, it has spill or leak 11 procedures. Who would have determined what those 12 procedures were? Is it something that a federal 13 agency has told you or something that Monsanto 14 ^decided;especially?: 15 4 A. : I don't know, I wasn't involved in 16 preparation of this particular issue. 17 Q. But at that time, your spill and leak 18 procedures for Aroclor 1254 were apparently to 19 absorb other absorbent material, place in drums, 20 bury in approved chemical landfill i,n accordance 21 with state and legal regulations? 22 A. Correct. 23 Q. I can't read the form directly above that 24 statement I just told you. Below that it says 25 "Waste disposal method." Then refers to burning in 77 STLCOPCB4025382 ... 1 incinerators. What's the difference between those 2 two? 3 A. I would think the first was probably steps 4 to be taken or procedures to be followed. Then the 5 actual disposal might be cleanup procedures or steps 6 to take. 7 Q. How would you decide whether to burn it in 8 an incinerator or bury it in a chemical landfill? 9 A. Both of these say in accordance with local 10 and state regulations, so I would assume from 11 knowing what I know about MSDS now and from reading 12 this, there were probably set procedures at this 13 time that specified how and where chemicals could be 14 disposed of and that the first thing they told you 15 to do was you had to clean this up, and this is how 16 to clean it up. And then after you clean it up, 17 what do you do with it, and you have to follow the 18 existing regulations. And at this point in time 19 each state, each locale, some counties, have 20 different regulations. That's when the first 21 environmental regulations came to be. They were not 22 standard. EPA was probably not in place at this 23 time, and so the information is follow your local 24 regulation. 25 Q. So you didn't tell people to do anything 78 STLCOPCB4025383 .... V-i- "A 1 other than comply with state and local regu. 2 . A. These were usually fairly specific, 3 state and local regulations theoretically met the 4 required safety and health requirements known at the 5 time . 6 Q. I agree you shouldn't tell them not to 7 comply with the state and local regulations, just a 8 question of the company position was if they comply 9 with state and local regulations, they don't need to 10 do anything else? 11 A. Fine. They would satisfy the health and 12 safety requirements that were known at the time. 13 Q. Now I want to show you another sheet marked ..14. ^assPlaintiff ' s Exhibit 14, which appears to be more " ; - - u~ : r .. . v 15. current. . . :r .' ;: f- : # : j 16 A. I'm very familiar with this, yes. i 7 ^::.'-:%--r':^-. * ' - >' V ' 18 Q. What is this document? A. This is a newer version of the Material 19 Safety Data Sheet that I caused to be issued and 20 drafted shortly after I got this position, and you 21 can see the date is September 1988, and I know this 22 because it's page 1 of 4. 23 The Material Safety Data Sheets 24 roughly at this point in time were undergoing > 25 revisions that were going to be required by the 79 STLCOPCB4025384 ^nm- 1 federal government within the next calendar year and 2 so we were getting lots of questions as to do you 3 have a Material Safety Data Sheet on PCB's. 4 Generally, they were for all types of products. 5 These things just didn't exist. There 6 is lots of confusion as to what is a PCB, what kind 7 of products and what not, so for our own use, for 8 our own plant facility use, for the general public 9 and regulatory agencies we produced what's called a 10 generic Material Safety Data Sheet for PCB's, which 11 is what this is. 12 Q. This document was prepared under your 13 direction? 14 A. This document was prepared under my 15 direction, yes, and my name appears on the last 16 page . 17 Q. Yes, and this document related to all PCB's 18 manufactured by Monsanto in 1980? 19 A. This document related to PCB's manufactured 20 by Monsanto and in general. We tried to put forth 21 as much information that was available in the public 22 domain as well as Monsanto's information relating to 23 these particular sections on PCB's. 24 Q. What persons would this have been made 25 available to? 80 STLCOPCB4025385 'i': ii ftiSwjwS *T* */ti - 1 A. This was made available to all of our 2 facilities. It was made available to any customers, 3 former customers, who requested it. It was made 4 available to regulatory agencies. EPA requested 5 these and used these. We sent these out by the 6 hundreds. As a matter of fact, this particular 7 safety data sheet was a new format and this was 8 approved by OSHA as being equivalent to the short 9 form you showed me previously. 10 Q. But as far as customers are concerned, you 11 sent this only to those that requested it? 12 A. That's correct, because you were not 13 required to produce this document because PCB's were 14 :: not manufactured. Therefore, the document was 15 prepared and it was made available to anyone who 16 requested it. 17 Q. On the first page, half way down the first 18 page, there's a heading, "Warning Statements," and 19 there are various forms of the labels there. It 20 says federal regulations under TSCA .require that 21 PCB's be marked with these labels. 22 When did you first start using labels 23 such as this? 24 A. The TSCA regulations were promulgated May 25 31st 1979. They became effective July 2nd 1979, and 81 STLCOPCB4025386 H- there was some grace period when these labels were required to be used. Might have been a year later but at that time period. As soon as they were available people began to use them, including Monsanto. Q. And I notice in each of these the biggest most bold-faced print on any of those labels has three letters, PCB? A. That's correct. These are specific PCB labels. PCB's are the only chemical name in the Toxic Substances Control Act. Q. Prior to the effective date of TSCA did you, or your company I mean, use labels that had PCB :.in, big. bold-faced print? , - MR. MONGE: Object to the form of the question on what is big bold-faced print, but if he knows, he can certainly answer. A. There were some labels that were for PCB's that were continued to be sold after the 1972 time frame, and these were all labeled that it contains PCB's in some way or another. Q. (By Mr. Baker) Prior to the 1972 time frame are you familiar with any label that Monsanto produced that said PCB at all on it? A. I don't know. 82 STLCOPCB4025387 ' - -:S3 1 Q. You do have on the bottom of the front page 2 emergency and first aid procedures. The top of the 3 second page, occupational control procedures. Were 4 those different for PCB's than they were for other 5 compounds ? 6 A. There are some differences. These are 7 generally -- these will apply to many industrial 8 chemicals and they will more specifically apply to a 9 lot of chlorinated organic chemicals as well as 10 PCB's. The first two, ingestion, skin contact, will 11 apply to anything except that -- well, it would 12 apply to any industrial chemical, so if you take the 13 name PCB out-- 14 ; : Q. Were these things required by federal law 15 or the things that Monsanto did on their own? 16 A. No, these were developed by Monsanto based 17 on our standard labeling practices and, again, some 18 were set up by industry groups. 19 Q. Under occupational control procedures, the 20 second heading there is Threshold Limit Value, TLV. 21 What is that? 22 A. OSHA had come into being, Occupational 23 Safety & Health Administration, at some point in 24 time about this time before 1980, I don't know 25 exactly when, probably the late '70's, and they had 83 STLCOPCB4025388 i begun to publish certain recommendations and 2 requirements. One thing OSHA published was -- this 3 is a particularly defined item. Threshold Limit 4 Value, and off the top of my head I can't tell you 5 exactly what it means because it differs a little 6 bit from a couple of other things, but the OSHA 7 standard and there's a table for various chemicals 8 that was subsequently incorporated into the OSHA 9 rules and regulations. So this is the inhalation 10 standard, the only one that I know of that has force 11 of law behind it. This is the standard for a plant 12 or manufacturing facility. Do not exceed these 13 values. 14 Q.\. That is for the air? 15 . A. That's air. 16 Q. And I notice there are two different 17 strength or percentage chlorine PCB's listed there; 18 42 percent and 54 percent. I assume 42 percent is 19 Aroclor 42 and 54 percent is Aroclor 54? 20 A. That's correct, but the numbers are -- 21 these are generic for any PCB's that had that 22 approximate content. 23 Q. Were there threshold limit values for any 24 other PCB's? 25 A. For whatever reason OSHA just decided to 84 STLCOPCB4025389 C&^rr*** r<7 1 pick two out of the range because they were a whole 2 range of products. These were the two that at this 3 time period were the most sold. 4 Q. So you believe the reason these two were 5 listed or were used by OSHA is they were most 6 prevalent ? 7 MR. MONGE: If you know. 8 A. I don't know. That's my guess. 9 Q. (By Mr. Baker) It's interesting that 42 10 percent or Aroclor 1242 has a 1 milligram per -- is 11 that cubic meter? 12 A. Right. 13 Q. That's 1 milligram of PCB or 1242 per cubic 14 meter of air? 15 A. Correct. 16 Q. Then the 1254 limit is half that? 17 A. Right. 18 Q. Is that because someone thought that 1254 19 was twice as strong as 1242 in terms of potential 20 adverse effect? , 21 A. I don't know what was in OSHA's mind when 22 they did that. I can speculate and give you some 23 technical answers. One is - 24 MR. MONGE: Don't speculate if you don't 25 know. 85 STLCOPCB4025390 Q. (By Mr. Baker) I don't want you to speculate, but if you can give me some technical answers as to why it would be acceptable to have twice as much 1242 as 1254 - MR. MONGE: I don't mind him giving you that but what I always concern myself with, Mike, is that later on when we go to trial and you've got somebody that comes on and says something completely different and you put him on and he's trying to sit there and defend what he said, and I don't want the witness to get caught in that kind of a trap. But "with that understanding, if you want him to give you - what he thinks. I'll let him do that. LrLi't: Q* ' (By Mr. Baker) What do you think? A. I think it's not just a factor of two, okay? I think they were trying to have a range. They were always based on actual measurements. They tried to do an inhalation chamber, and inhalation chamber experiments are a real bear to do. 1254 is so less volatile than 1242 because the difference in the inhalation is 150 degrees centigrade trying to get the maximum tolerated dose to cause an effect. They put rats in these things and try to make them start gasping or something. That's the may the inhalation chamber is, that's what I think it is. 86 STLCOPCB4025391 ,ic . -r 1 and you just have trouble heating it hot enough, you 2 know, to get that much in the air because, you know, 3 unless the air is that hot, it's going to condense 4 and come back out as vapor, so I think that was 5 probably the upper limit they could attain, and I 6 don't know if that caused a problem. You would have 7 to go read the OSHA reports to find out. But that 8 is the published standard, and very seldom do you 9 find that in any plant facility. You can't measure 10 it that high. 11 Q. I won't ask you any more about that. I'm 12 not trying to set you up -- 13 . A. No,-but it's technical. It's a good 14 tquestion, but you see how they do it -- 15 . , Q. The physiological effects? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. And this was something that was prepared by 18 you or under your direction? 19 A. This was prepared under my direction. 20 Q. And you mentioned literature reports about 21 PCB's impairing reproduction function in monkeys? 22 A. Right. 23 Q. And reports about Aroclor 1260 causing 24 liver cancer. Then you have a study that you say 25 you did that didn't produce cancers. Then down 87 STLCOPCB4025392 1 below that -- 2 A. National Cancer Institute did a study that 3 didn't produce cancer; not me, not myself. 4 Q. I thought the sentence before, that 5 Monsanto sponsored animal feeding studies. 6 A. I'm sorry, Monsanto spons oreci the studies. 7 t h at ' s correc t, and the National C ancer Institute 8 pe rformed stu dies a Iso, okay? 9 Q. Says it wa s not carcinoge nic under the 10 CO nditions of their bioassay? 11 A. That ' s the wording, exact iy, out of the 12 National Cancer Institute's report, they did not 13 find cancer. lv:-' $ " '' ' 14 Q. 'V.Do you know what the conditions of their 15 bioassay were? 16 A. They were pretty much the conditions of the 17 worker who found cancer. This has been a subject of 18 scientific disagreement for decades. As a matter of 19 fact, it has just recently been redone, all of the 20 studies, and there is a question -- the question, 21 even now, is: Do PCB's cause cancer at all? 22 Q. But then in the next paragraph you noted 23 that the consistent finding in animal studies is 24 that they produce liver injury following prolonged 25 repeated exposure by any route. 88 STLCOPCB4025393 ______________________ ___ __aM?-it4Mrifr- '-! 4,.\ *3f*ri?*1 ) . -. . . . :< ) 1 A. That's correct. Same as any other 2 chlorinated hydrocarbon. If you do that -- if you 3 substitute that, you could have taken that out and 4 put chlorobenzene, you get the same result. Dry 5 cleaning fluid, chlorethylene. 6 Q. And then, finally, on the next page, your 7 reactivity data, you don't list a half-life but you 8 didn't know that, but you didn't know is a fair 9 statement ? 10 A. That's correct. 11 MR. BAKER: I would move Plaintiff's 12 Exhibit 14 be admitted into evidence. 13 ,......... MR. MONGE: I don't have any objection to I A ',-y *.that. :. : : . ......' . .. - 15 j . Q. '(By Mr. Baker) Are you familiar with a recent study done I believe in 1991 I believe at the 17 Bloomington Westinghouse Plant by the OSHA? 18 A. I have read the abstract of that study in 19 some of the newspaper accounts. 20 Q. Have you seen the full report? 21 A. I don't know if I've seen the full report 22 or not. As I say, I've seen an abstract and 23 sometimes a summary report is like that and a full 24 report is like that. I don't think I've seen the 25 full report. 89 STLCOPCB4025394 1 Q. But you have seen the abstract? 2 A. I have seen the abstract. 3 Q. Do you recall the conclusion in that 4 report ? 5 A. I don't. There are a couple of reports 6 that have come out of that thing and I don't think 7 -- the results are somewhat contradictory from the 8 early reports to the later reports and I'd have to 9 have them in front of me to -- 10 Q. If I told you that our view of that report 11 said that it concluded that exposure to PCB's may 12 cause a significant increase in the risk of brain 13 cancer, would you agree that was part of that report 14 or . 15 . MR. MONGE: My objection is that's your 16 conclusion. He doesn't have the report in front of 17 him. He's told you that he doesn't recall exactly 18 what it said, but he can answer that to the extent 19 he can answer. 20 A. I remember that report came out. I think 21 it also says the results are not statistically 22 significant. In scientific lingo it means it's 23 probably not so. 24 Q. I object to that answer, but I guess that's 25 not my job. 90 STLCOPCB4025395 1 Mr. Craddock, have there been 2 discussions, internal discussions, among Monsanto 3 executives concerning that report? 4 A. When you say internal discussions among 5 people in Monsanto, I've talked about it with people 6 that I work with, you know, because we follow these 7 things and we look at those things, and I don't know 8 how broadly they talk about it. I'm sure that they 9 have. I can't -- 0 Q. I won't ask you any more about that. 1 Are you familiar at all with the 2 pamphlets that would have gone to some of the 3 customers who purchased Pydraul AC? 4 ;i . .-'i:: A. Old sales literature? 5 Q .Yeah . . 6 A. No, most of that stuff's out of print. 7 It's not even available. 8 Q. Do you know a gentleman by the name 9 D. A. Olsen? 0 A. Y e s . , 1 Q. Is he still employed by Monsanto? 2 A. No, he's not. 3 Q. Is he still alive to your knowledge? 4 A. To my knowledge, he's still alive. Saw him a couple of years ago at Christmas. 91 STLCOPCB4025396 .4i ,VLT*- " / ; . ,-.... . -- : . , . ' ---" v:v ~ ''-' . . ... .......... ., .r )i Q. Do you have any idea where he lives? 2 A. He may still live here in St. Louis. 3 Q. You know a gentleman or a person by the 4 name of N. S. Johnson? 5 A. I know the name. I don't know him 6 personally. I think he was a salesman at one point 7 in time. 8 Q. Do you know if he still is employed by 9 Monsanto? 10 A. No, I don't know. 11 Q. You don't know if he still lives in the St. 12 'Louis area? ) 13 A. No. J.--',>&'.(.:iV.*fcoa<vi^trr^.x"-1\'-a - .'--` ?'*.. " 15 .. - 16 17 Q. Do you know a gentleman by the name of Larry Bradford? A. I know the name but I don't know him personally. I don't recall what his function was. 18 Q. You know whether he is employed with 19 Monsanto or lives in the St. Louis area? 20 A. I don't know. , 21 Q. Do you know a gentleman by the name of 22 Howard Buergin? 23 A. I've met Howard Buergin and I know the 24 name. He's no longer with Monsanto. ) 25 Q. Do you know what his position was in the 92 STLCOPCB4025397 1 early '70's? 2 A. He might have been the division manager or 3 whatever it was, or the business group manager at 4 that point in time. He might be dead now. 5 MR. MONGE: I believe he is. 6 A. I think he's dead now. 7 Q. (By Mr. Baker) I only ask you these 8 questions because you're the first one here and you 9 signed interrogatories. We asked for production of 10 a number of documents and you provided us with a 11 number of documents. Part of that request was for 12 correspondence to and from Kentucky Hydrocarbon or 13 Equitable Resources. We were given copies of some 14 letters that were unaddressed that appeared to be 15 form letters that may have gone to any number of 16 companies, and I will tell you that many of those 17 things -- our position is that Kentucky Hydrocarbon 18 did not receive those. 19 I want to ask if there are any lists, 20 computer-generated or otherwise, that would show the 21 persons to whom these letters were sent or if there 22 are any copies that would have the addressee 23 actually listed on the letters? 24 A. To my knowledge there are no specific lists 25 of people who got those, or addressees. To my 93 STLCOPCB4025398 A-:.;-?" ---.v .'Sfil 1 knowledge those letters were sent to anybody that 2 was on a computer sales list that had bought those 3 products at a given time. Or whatever list. I 4 don't know whether it was computed at that time or 5 not, but it was the sales list, whatever it was at 6 that time. 7 Q. Who would know what companies were on that 8 list ? 9 A. Well, as I say, I don't know if there is a 10 specific list. It would be a list of customers. If 11 we still have the list of customers it would be in 12 the archives with the rest of these documents. If 13 that was one of these specific requests in that 14 .' document,, we made a diligent search. These people 15 were told.to look and see if you can find these 16 specific things and specific things that you had 17 asked me. 18 Q. Now I'm more interested right now in 19 persons who might have actual knowledge. We're 20 talking about going back 20 years. , 21 A. I don't know who is left who would have 22 that. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know 23 who was in the business group at that time other 24 than these letters that you showed me, and I don't 25 know who had responsibility for putting together 94 STLCOPCB4025399 1 that mailing list. 2 ...... Q. Something else that we've noticed. It 3 appears to me that there were certified letters sent 4 to certain Therminol customers. Do you know who 5 would have been involved in a decision to have sent 6 these letters in a way to have a record that they 7 had been sent and received to certain customers and 8 not send them to others? 9 A. I don't know. I wasn't involved at the 10 time and I don't know what the circumstances were, 11 why it was done one way or the other. 12 Q. Can you identify any of the persons who 13 were or might have been involved in that decision? 14 A. No, I couldn't tell you who was in what 15 position at that particular time off the top of my 16 head. I just don't know. 17 Q. You've testified about some letters that 18 went to customers starting in 1970. 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. Does Monsanto have a position as to which 21 of those letters, if any, they contend were sent to 22 Kentucky Hydrocarbon? 23 A. I think it's Monsanto's position that 24 Kentucky Hydrocarbon was on one of our customer 25 lists and we have records of sales to the entity. 95 STLCOPCB4025400 ragSf*** 1 whatever entity it was at the time. Companies 2 change name and addresses. They were specifically 3 sent a copy of that package of material. 4 Q. Of each of those? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. So your position is that each of those were 7 sent to Kentucky Hydrocarbon? 8 A. It's my understanding. 9 Q. Other than copies of the form letters 10 without addressees, what evidence does Monsanto have 11 that any or all of those letters were sent to 12 Kentucky Hydrocarbon? 13 MR. MONGE: To the extent you know. 14 . : i : A.: ..I. don't know of any specific evidence that 15 we do have or that we don't have. I just don't 16 know. I was not involved, so I don't know. 17 Q. Who is C. B. Singleton? Did you know that 18 person ? 19 A.. I don't believe he was a salesman, I don't 20 know. 21 Q. We've already talked about Dr. Kelly I 22 believe. Do you know what salesmen or salesman 23 would have been responsible for Kentucky between 2 4 1966 and 1971? 25 A. No. 96 STLCOPCB4025401 1 Q. Do you know what persons would have been 2 responsible for Pennsylvania? 3 A. No. 4 Q. Do you know anyone who could tell us what 5 salesmen were responsible for those areas? 6 A. I don't, I really don't. 7 Q. Do you know if the salesmen had territories 8 to service or if they were assigned just to 9 particular customers or how they were assigned? 10 A. At that particular time, I don't know. It 11 changed from management to management, how they run 12 their business. 13 Q. Mr. Craddock, in response to our request 14 for.production of documents there were some invoices 15 produced and some computerized sales records 16 produced. Do you know the source of those 17 documents? 18 MR. MONGE: Do you have them? 19 MR. BAKER: Yes, I can show each of them to 20 you. ; 21 Q. (By Mr. Baker) First one is marked 22 Plaintiff's Exhibit 29. 23 A. This is a copy of a documents that we had 24 available in our archives. 25 Q. If I'm not mistaken, there were none of 97 STLCOPCB4025402 1 these produced for periods prior to 1971, this kind 2 of invoice. 3 We know there were sales to Kentucky 4 Hydrocarbon several times before 1971. Is there a 5 reason that there would not have been an invoice 6 like this that you're aware of? 7 A. Monsanto has a published records retention 8 policy, okay, like the sales records and all sorts 9 of things. I don't know what the sales record 10 retention policy is, but normally it's nothing like 11 20-odd-years or something like this. PCB records, 12 there's a normal culling out period and they go from 13 files to archives for maybe five years and there was 14 .a point in time that we started getting requests for 15 records, PCB records from the government, from 16 various people, and we saved what information that 17 was available was left in the archives and what we 18 say is if we have the document, we know it's there. 19 If we don't have it doesn't mean it didn't happen. 20 Just means we don't have the record.. But that's the 21 reason. It depends on some -- as with any company, 22 some people adhere strictly to the record retention 23 and some people never throw anything away and, you 24 know, we gathered what records were available and 25 this was, you know, done when this even started 98 STLCOPCB4025403 - : t', is-'-- - ........ - - ; " 1 maybe before my predecessors and they started 2 putting this together. It just means if we have the 3 record, we know it happened. If we don't have the 4 record, we can't be sure. Doesn't mean it didn't. 5 Just means we didn't have the record. 6 Q. This Exhibit 29 does show a sale from 7 Monsanto to Kentucky Hydrocarbon Company, Langley, 8 Kentucky, shipped to Maytown, Kentucky of four 9 5-gallon cans of Pydraul AC in April of 1971. 10 MR. MONGE; Now that's Pydraul AC-A? 11 12 ^ A. " A. (By Mr. Baker) Okay. With the correction. Pydraul AC-A, it does show that sale in April 1971, does it . not? . -' ' ' " - A.; That's correct. ............... 16 Q. What does the AC-A mean? 17 A. That, again, is an identifier to give you 18 that specific product, okay? And A was a variation 19 of AC. Off the top of my head I don't have that. 20 I'd have to look and see. It may have been - 21 there's no sense speculating. I'd have to look and 22 see . 23 Q. Do you know if Pydraul AC-A contained 24 PCB's? 25 A. I don't know without looking. I really 99 STLCOPCB4025404 1 don't know. From the date, it could have been when 2 they were changing formulations that may not have 3 been a PCB formulation. There were attempts to have 4 less persistent environmentally persistent products 5 because you couldn't just yank everything from a 6 customer and put him out of business, and there were 7 graduations in trying to get people over this time 8 period when the PCB-containing products were no 9 longer sold, and since this was May of '71 this may 10 have been one of the first variations of the AC, but 11 I'd have to look it up to tell you. 12 Q. I would ask, first, at some point you do 13 ...... :y 14 that and have your counsel inform us of whether that was a PCB product. 15 uvf..- MR. MONGE: Why don't you ask that? Make a 16 note to yourself there to ask Mr. Papageorge that. 17 MR. BAKER: That may resolve that problem. 18 Q. (By Mr. Baker) While you're on the 19 subject, you talk about reformulations. When did 20 Monsanto begin reformulating Pydraul in formulas 21 without PCB's? 22 MR. MONGE: Pydraul generally or Pydraul 23 AC, Mike? 24 MR. BAKER: Both. 25 A. I don't have a specific date, but roughly 100 STLCOPCB4025405 14 ::S -7- 1 this 1971-1972 time frame. There's a whole new 2 series of products that came out that had different 3 letters following the Pydraul name. 4 Q. (By Mr. Baker) Between 1966 and 1970 after 5 the report from Sweden, before 1970 did Monsanto 6 undertake any research or any work in developing new 7 products to replace Pydraul or for Pydraul AC? 8 A. I don't know. 9 Q. What is a PCT? 10 A. PCT is a polychlorinated terphenyl, which 11 means it has three phenyl rings linked together. 12 Q. Did some or all of the products that yv-. 13 initially replaced PCB fluids, Pydraul fluids 14 containing PCB's, did they contain PCT? 15 , MR. MONGE: Let me object to the question 16 about PCT. As I understand the thrust of your 17 complaint, you complained about PCB's and not PCT's, 18 so I would object to the relevancy of questions 19 relating to PCT's. He certainly can answer the 20 question with that understanding. , 21 A. It depended on what the application was 22 because PCT's were bulkier hydrocarbon molecules, 23 they had different properties. PCB's, a lot of them 24 were solids at room temperature so, obviously, that 25 wouldn't make a good lubricant. It depended on what 101 STLCOPCB4025406 Wf: 1 it was formulated for and what else was in the 2 ingredient, but it did have -- it had the 3 fire-resistant, explosive-resistant property, so 4 where it could be used in some cases, it was used. 5 Q. So in some cases Pydraul fire-resistant 6 lubricants that contained PCB's were replaced by 7 Pydraul fire-resistant lubricants that contained 8 PCT's? 9 A. I say they may have been but I'd have to 10 look. 11 Q. If that is the case, were the PCT products 12 later replaced by other products that contained 13 either PCB's or PCT's? 14 MR. MONGE: Same objection to the 15 relevancy, but you may answer. 16 V'A. Yes. Ultimately, Pydraul fluids were 17 totally reformulated without PCB's and without 18 PCT's. 19 Q. Do you know what is contained in the 20 product that most closely resembles Pydraul AC, the 21 reformulated product that contained either PCB's or 22 PCT's? 23 A. I have to look it up. Off the top of my 24 head, I don't know. 25 Q. Are you familiar with Pydraul 90-E? 102 STLCOPCB4025407 S&' . ; ' .. 1 A. I know the name and know that it was a - 2 the "E" was in the first round of products that was 3 believed to be environmentally acceptable and "E" 4 was the code for that, but the 90, I can't tell you 5 what the other ingredients were. But the "E" is 6 strictly an identifier so you know that that was 7 specifically designed to be environmentally 8 acceptable. 9 Q. Do you know roughly when that product first 10 became available? 11 A. I can't tell you. Sometime after '72 I 12 would guess, plus or minus. I wouldn't say minus 13 but could be a year or two later. 14 , Q. . Is that product still being used? 15 A. I believe it is still sold. Monsanto no 16 longer has the Pydraul line but the trademark and 17 line has been sold to another company. But it's my 18 understanding it is still sold. 19 Q. Approximately when was that trademark sold? 20 A. In the past couple of years. 21 Q. To whom? 22 A. It's either -- there's two companies and it 23 might be Stauffer Chemical, S-T-A-U-F-F-E-R. One is 24 the food company. I think it's Stauffer Chemical 25 who is in the phosphate ester business. 103 STLCOPCB4025408  ' ~ - 1 Q. Is ester, is that related to the "E" in 2 90-E at all? 3 A. No, an ester is a chemical reaction to give 4 you a different class of compound. 5 Q. Does Monsanto currently make any 6 fire-resistant lubricants? 7 A. We may but I'm not sure because I'm not in 8 the product group. I just can't answer that. We 9 have some functional fluids but I'm not sure. 10 Q. But you did produce some other records 11 concerning sales to Kentucky Hydrocarbon. I'll just 12 go through these very quickly. 13 rv;& 14 * 15 First is marked as Plaintiff's Exhibit 30.and I'll ask you if you can identify this. Says Sales Summary" at the top. 16 > A. These are documents that went to the 17 salesmen each month so you could see what is being 18 sold to whom, and this was just a copy of one that 19 was found in our file. 20 Q. Is there anything on here that would 21 identify the salesman? 22 A. Probably one of the numbers should but I'm 23 not sure which one. I can't read the things at the 24 top. There should be an identifier on this there. 25 It either went to the sales -- either went back to 104 STLCOPCB4025409 stoivSf 1 the salesman or went to the Marketing Department 2 showing shipment was made to that particular 3 customer at that time. 4 Q. Up in the far right-hand corner is a number 5 471, and I can't read - 6 A. I can't read that either. 7 Q. -- the legend on that? 8 MR. MONGE: We'll try and find you 9 something that shows what that is. I don't know 10 what it is either. 11 A. I can't read that. Maybe that's a page 12 number. 13 MR. MONGE: We'll find something and let 14 you know what that is. 15 Q. (By Mr. Baker) And this shows 165 pounds 16 apparently being sold to Kentucky Hydrocarbon in 17 Langley, K, which I assume is Kentucky, December 18 1959; is that correct? 19 A. That's correct. That's the way I read 2 0 that. , 21 Q. In gallons, how much would 165 pounds be? 22 A. If it's a hundred percent PCB it's 23 approximately 12 and a half pounds per gallon. 24 That's a rough number you can use for all PCB's. 25 Q. So that would be about 15 gallons, or about 105 STLCOPCB4025410 1 three 5-gallon cans? 2 A. That's what it.looks like. 3 Q. I'll just quickly show you some other like 4 that. Exhibit 31 is a similar sheet. In the upper 5 right-hand column it has No. 573 and I can read a 6 P-A -- looks like a "G" there. It may be a page 7 number but we'll check on that tomorrow. 8 This, again, shows 55 pounds of 9 Pydraul AC being sold to Equitable Gas Company. 10 Doesn't have an address there. 11 Would^ there be anything in your 12 records that would show where that was shipped to? 13 A. Not -- I think this is probably the 14 document that we had that that was produced, I don't 15 know. : 16 Q. That's in December 1966, is it not? 17 A. Yeah. 18 Q. I'll show you another one that's dated 19 December 1965. This says page number clearly at the 20 top. Now we know. , 21 A. I'll stand corrected on one thing I said. 22 This might be the summary for the year. This could 23 be a year end summary, okay? I don't know whether 24 this is -- says by month so it's probably December. 25 Maybe just bought before the money ran out. 106 STLCOPCB4025411 1 Q. This doesn't show any numbers on it. 2 Apparently there was a sale, December 1965, with 3 nothing on this sheet that would show how much. 4 A. This may have showed this customer didn't 5 buy anything. 6 Q. So, Mr. Craddock, you really don't know 7 what this represents, do you? 8 A. No, I don't. 9 Q. I think we have two more. This is one for 10 December 1967, has Kentucky Hydrocarbon Company 11 listed here, marked as Plaintiff's Exhibit No. 33. 12 And, again, this doesn't show any numbers for sales, 13 so I assume you have the same answer as you did for 14 3lthe last one. You don't know whether there were - 15 sales for that month or what this document 16 represents? 17 A. That's right. 18 Q. Up at the top of Exhibit 33, top left-hand 19 corner, is printed "Inorganic No. 2." I noticed on 20 the prior one it said "Direct No. 2." 21 Do you have any idea what those words 22 mean on these documents? 23 A. I don't know, they were just -- I don't 24 know whether it's accounting or billing or who put 25 out a series of reports, you know, and it's probably 107 STLCOPCB4025412 t.. . "vxr'iffai 1 just the name of the report. 2 Q. Finally/ unless I have missed one, there is 3 Plaintiff's Exhibit 34, which is December 1968 and 4 is another sales summary form, says "Organic No. 2" 5 at the left-hand column. This shows Kentucky 6 Hydrocarbon Company and does list 226 pounds. Let 7 me ask you a couple of general questions about all 8 of these. 9 Is it your testimony that these were 10 found in your records and you don't know where they 11 came from or exactly what they mean? 12 A. My testimony is that these are from our 13 archives, okay? These are documents that have the 14 names of the companies that you asked us to 15 service. These are the records we have. It's a 16 sales summary. I don't know any more than that. It 17 indicates that summary of sales for the particular 18 entity, quantity at that particular time. That's 19 just the records that we have. 20 Q. You can't testify that these sales occurred 21 or that there weren't other sales to Kentucky 22 Hydrocarbon that aren't reflected on any of these 23 sheets ? 24 A. That's correct. 25 Q. Are you familiar with a person by the name 108 STLCOPCB4025413 \" J&`rcs. ----` `,yiv! y>.^TA 1 of Farar Hodges? F-A-R-A-R is the way I have it. 2 ...... A. No. . 3 Q. Or John Richard Wheeler? 4 A. No. 5 Q. I believe you've probably answered this 6 about two or three times already in different 7 forms. Were you involved at all in the corporate 8 management committee in the early 1970's? 9 A. No. 10 Q. Are you familiar with a gentleman by the 11 name of John Mason? 12 > *=h^':'feis;r ` 13 A. There are several John Masons at Monsanto. There is a contemporary of mine that I know very ... . :4Mr^ 14 .. well who came in as a chemist about the time I did. " 15 That's one John Mason. He's now President of ,; i6 Monsanto Fund. 17 There is another John Mason who is the 18 director or manager of University Relations. That's 19 two that I know. 20 Q. University Relations? ; 21 A. Yeah, colleges, grants and stuff like that, 22 recruiting, all that sort of thing. 23 Q. And both of those are still around the St. 24 Louis area? 25 A. Yes. 109 STLCOPCB4025414 i'-'-z i Q. Do you know a J. H. Davison? 2 A. Don't think so. 3 Q. In one of the earlier documents referring 4 to waste disposal -- it was the 1971 MSDS form - 5 you talked about incineration as a possible means of 6 waste disposal. I'll speak specifically about 7 Pydraul AC with 1254. 8 Does it take very high temperatures to 9 incinerate that product? 10 A. Again, this is a question of relatively how 11 high is high. Takes about 1,200 degrees 12 centigrade. That's significantly less than a blast 13 furnace that runs at 3,000 or so. Incineration is a 14 specific chemical process, a controlled process, 15 that's contrasted to open burning a brush pile and 16 burn it. So, relatively, it's high but it's not as 17 high as -- it's an intermediate range I would say. 18 Q. Did Monsanto have a specific incinerator 19 for PCB products? 20 A. We had an incinerator for PCB's products 21 with a specific for PCB's. I don't know the 22 particulars of that. We did burn PCB's and other 23 chlorinated products in an incinerator. 24 Q. At least you did have an incinerator that 25 you did use for PCB's. Maybe it's good for 110 STLCOPCB4025415 "~:'T..: somethin gelsetoo? ......... A. Right. It's designed for PCB's. Q. Was there just one that was used for PCB's to your knowledge? A. Yes. Q. Where was it located? A. It was located in the Krummrich Plant at Sauget, Illinois. Q. When did you first start using that incinerator for PCB products? A. I don't know specifically when that incinerator came along. \ Q Was it there prior to 1970? ^" - A I can't tell you when it came on but it was certainly designed to be used at that plant. I don't know the time. Q. or not? You don't know whether it was there in 1970 A. I believe it was there in 1970. I don't know when it first came on though. I can't tell you that. Q. When Monsanto decided to phase out Pydraul AC, what did you tell your customers about it and what was your policy on products they may not have used already? Ill STLCOPCB4025416 -T-* 1 MR. MONGE: To the extent that you know. 2 A. I don't know the specifics. The policy was 3 generally outlined in those series of form letters 4 that we've discussed and I don't know the business 5 arrangements with particular products, I can't 6 answer that. 7 Q. (By Mr. Baker) Do you know whether 8 Monsanto offered to buy back unused portions of 9 Pydraul AC? 10 A. I don't know. 11 Q. Do you know whether Monsanto offered to 12 incinerate leftover Pydraul AC for its customers? 13 A. As far as Pydraul AC, I can't specifically 14 answer, but I know that we had a plan and a program 15 and a policy to incinerate PCB's for our customers 16 that came in in this early '70's time frame when the 17 phaseout program came in, and the reason for this 18 was that the problem was persistence in the 19 environment. We were going to get out of the 20 business because we didn't want PCB's to be disposed 21 of improperly. We made available to our customers 22 the means that we had at our disposal for handling 23 products at our plant, and so the offer was made to 24 customers, if they would get the material to our 25 plant, I think they were required to pay shipping 112 STLCOPCB4025417 Ate- r-i-.K 1 and we would incinerate it for something like fuel 2 cost, which is like two or three cents a pound 3 versus -- 4 Q. Did you take any steps to encourage them to 5 do that or offer them any incentive on replacement 6 products ? 7 A. There were steps taken to encourage the use 8 of incineration but I don't know the details of 9 whether they were incentives or whether it was just 10 -- I know there were affirmative plans to make this 11 information known to the customers and to get them 12 to use it, and what they did, I don't know. 13 Q. What about customers who had a system where 14 they-were using Pydraul AC and they wanted to switch 15 over to a non-PCB product? Did Monsanto do anything 1 6 to offer to clean out their systems for them or give 17 them advice on how to clean out the system or to 18 your knowledge was there any that have offered? 19 A. I really don't know. I wasn't involved 20 with that. t 21 (A brief recess was taken.) 22 Q. (By Mr. Baker) Mr. Craddock, we'll try to 23 finish up here shortly. 24 We were talking about incineration, 25 and in your testimony you gave the answer I think 113 STLCOPCB4025418 -* that was consistent with your answer to interrogatories about incineration, that there was some offer at a price for Monsanto to incinerate PCB fluids for its customers. Do you have any evidence that an offer like that was ever made to Kentucky Hydrocarbon or to Equitable? A. I personally don't have anything. I think if you request it in the interrogatory it was included, you know, in the document production but I personally don't have any evidence of it. Q. You don't know of any written or oral communications to Kentucky Hydrocarbon or Equitable other than what you've produced? A. , That's correct. Personally, I have no knowledge. Q. I'm going to show you a document that you produced to us that's marked as Plaintiff's Exhibit 69. This is a letter on Monsanto letterhead dated December 21st 1979 to Mr. Roger Williams at the EPA. It's signed by Clayton Callis, direc tor of Environmental Operations. Did you work for Mr. Callis, or with him? 114 STLCOPCB4025419 .41.1 f'rr. -V:: ..'Y- ----- 1 A. I worked with him during the time period 2 that I was in MIC Environmental Operations. He was 3 not my direct boss but he was the director of 4 Environmental Operations and my boss reported to 5 him. 6 Q. Are you familiar with the discussions that 7 led up to this letter? 8 A. No. 9 Q. Are you familiar with the situation that 10 caused this letter? 11 A. No, I'm not. 12 Q Is Mr. Callis still alive today? 13 A. Yes, he is. 14 Q. Do you know if he works for Monsanto? 15 , A. No, he's retired. 16 Q. Do you know whether he lives in the St. 17 Louis area? 18 A. I would say yes, except that he may still 19 have his house here. His wife died recently and I 20 heard that was living in Columbus, Ohio, and he 21 might be doing some work there for the American 22 Chemical Society. He's past President of the 23 American Chemical Society, so I don't know. He may 24 still have a mailing address. 25 Q. Are you familiar with a person named 115 STLCOPCB4025420 -iiy.VYi-. 1 W. N. Maddox? 2 A. No. 3 Q. G. R. Buchanan? 4 A. No. 5 Q. D. Wood? 6 A. David Wood probably, if that's David Wood. 7 Q. Is he still alive? 8 A. Still alive. 9 Q. Still works for Monsanto? 10 A. Still works for Monsanto I believe. 11 Q Do you know what his job was with Monsanto 12 r back in the '70's? ........................... - -V 13 A. He was involved with PCB's at some time " ....' ~ ' ' 14 period there before I became involved. 15 Q. We talked earlier about some of the acute 16 testing that was done on the PCB's in the Aroclor 17 products. 18 What sort of chronic testing -- first 19 of all, what's the difference between acute testing 20 and chronic testing? 21 A. Acute or short-term results just to get an 22 indication of a short-term exposure, like sometimes 23 we call it a casual exposure, okay; somebody 24 ingesting it quickly or getting it spilled on them 25 or walking through it, something like that, so acute 116 STLCOPCB4025421 1 is usually -- some people describe it as a one time 2 short-term exposure. 3 Chronic exposure includes up to 4 lifetime studies for the specific species being 5 tested; high doses constantly for a lifetime. 6 Q. Did Monsanto conduct any chronic testing of 7 PCB ' s? 8 A. Yes, they did. 9 10 Q. Starting when? A. Roughly in the late '60's, early '70's 11 maybe. 12 Q. So prior to the late '60's or early '70's 13 Monsanto had done no chronic testing? 14 A. I don't know to the extent. I know that 15 ; the lifetime studies were started about that time. 16 Whether they had done any preliminary stuff up to 17 then -- as I mentioned earlier, these things go in 18 stages and I just don't know the dates. 19 Q. Since 1935 have there been any other 20 manufacturers of PCB's in the United States? 21 A. EPA reports there was one, but it was small 22 and -- 23 Q. Do you know who it was and roughly when? 24 A. I seen their name but if my life depended 25 on it, I couldn't tell you. 117 STLCOPCB4025422 1 Q. It doesn't. 2 A. They were a small manufacturer. 3 Q. So it's safe to say that 99 percent or more 4 of the PCB's manufactured in the United States were 5 manufactured by Monsanto? 6 A. I don't know if it said 99 percent, but 7 Monsanto, we were a major producer of PCB's in the 8 United States. 9 Q. Do you know whether your production 10 increased or decreased between 1966 and 1970? 11 A. Offhand, I can't tell you, but these 12 numbers have been published. They are in EPA 13 reports, they are available. 14 Q. In the beginning I asked you about 15 testimony in prior litigation. Have you appeared 16 before Congress or any committees of Congress 17 concerning PCB's? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. Approximately when and how many times? 20 A. I probably have been before Congressional 21 committees half a dozen times since -- probably 22 since 1983. 23 Q. Have you appeared before the EPA or any 24 branches of the EPA? 25 A. Yes. 118 STLCOPCB4025423 .inahyfeij ' ~--V-. : ;r-#> -fy-'-Tr--- 4-~ V ......... ` . . ... .' . . . ^ - . 1 Q. When and approximately how many times? 2 A. EPA, probably a half dozen to a dozen 3 times. Most recently was this past summer. 4 revitalization hearings in Washington. 5 Q. Do you know if there are any transcripts of 6 your Congressional testimony or your agency 7 testimony? 8 A. There probably are. They usually keep 9 transcripts I believe or copies of testimony is 10 provided to them. 11 Q. Do you know if Monsanto would have obtained AV 12 ^ : 13 copies of those or any of those? A. I don't believe they would. I testified in ;. . - 14 . .. <*:-. ^.w.-."; .... ' 15 my. capacity as chairman of the Chemical i Manufacturers Association PCB panel and also as 16 -^, J 17 ; cochairman of the industry PCB consensus group. "which is a consortium of trade associations working 18 with EPA regulations. 19 Q. Do you have copies of any of those 20 transcripts? ( 21 A. I wouldn't have transcripts. I may have 22 copies of my remarks. 23 MR. BAKER: I would ask, first, if Monsanto 24 has in its custody or control any transcripts of ^ 25 Congressional testimony or administrative agency 119 STLCOPCB4025424 1 testimony concerning PCB's by this witness, that we 2 be given copies of those. 3 And I would ask, second, if the 4 witness does not object, that you provide us with 5 copies of any of your remarks to Congress or any of 6 its committees or administrative agencies concerning 7 PCB's. 8 MR. MONGE: My response to that is I'll 9 find out what I can and I'll let you know one way or 10 the other. 11 Q. (By Mr. Baker) Mr. Craddock, you testified 12 earlier that Monsanto and others conducted animal studies? A. Yes. /. . . Q. And that in the United States you couldn't conduct studies on humans? 17 A. That's correct. 18 Q. But that your studies in the potential 19 adverse effects of substances on humans were done by 20 conducting studies with animals; is that correct? 21 A. Well, when you are testing chemicals the 22 standard protocol is to test animals, that's 23 correct. 24 Q. I assume one reason for this is you can't 25 do it on humans and probably would choose to use 120 STLCOPCB4025425 7 ijjr rats instead, even if you could. 2 .......... Is another reason that you believe you 3 learn something from the effect on animals that 4 translates into what the effect will be on humans? 5 A. Well, this is highly debatable as to how 6 direct you can translate animal effects to humans. 7 There are some things -- I guess it's generally 8 accepted that there is some effects, maybe 50 to 60, 9 70 percent of the time that you can predict, but 10 then you get to -- they are finding more and more 11 exceptions because the metabolism of different ; 12 species is totally different and therein lies the is: ,ii 7-7" -7 . 7 : problem. For instance, 7?7-.,:-.77--,v >77 ' . 7. - : - - trying to think of an :example that they used -- there's something that .they tested on rats and it was very detrimental to 16 the rats but yet it turns out it's something that 17 doesn't have the same effect on humans. It's almost 18 like -- not a cancer cure but it's a significant 19 thing, but there's just drastic differences there. 20 A pharmacologist or toxicologist cou,ld explain that 21 better than I can. 22 Q. I'm not suggesting there aren't differences 23 but there are also some similarities is the reason 24 you use animals for testing? 25 A. Yes, 50 to 60 percent. It's not perfect 121 STLCOPCB4025426 STLCOPCB4025427 1 2... 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 ' 12 Z 13 .-i- - S ifi SIGNATURE OF WITNESS day of, JOHN CRADDOCK, Ph. D. Subscribed and sworn before me this, 1992 . Notary Public My Commission Expires: 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 ) 25 123 STLCOPCB4025428 STLCOPCB4025429