Document k6MMnZKXbwpMrazdKX4amNamB
FILE NAME: US Gypsum (USG)
DATE: June 14, 1984
DOC#: USG008 DOCUMENT DESCRIPTION: 1984 Legal - Partial Transcript of Testimony
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U N I T E D STATES D I S T R I C T COURT D I S T R I C T OF SOUTH CAROLI NA COLUMBIA D IV I S I O N
3 i LEXI NGTON COUNTY SCHOOL D I S T R I C T )
FIVE,
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PLAINTIFF, VS .
UNITED STAGES GYPSUM COMPANY,
) C I V I L ACTI ON NO. 8 2 - 2 0 7 2 - 0 ) ) ) ) UNI T E D STATES COURTHOUSE
) C OL UMB I A, SOUTH CAROLI NA
DEFENDANT.
) FRIDAY, APRIL 6, 1989
9
10 BEFORE TFE PHAORNTOI ARLABLTER A NLLSOCYRDI P TF. OFMATCEMSATHIOMNO, N YSEONFI ORT RDI AI SL T R I C T JUDGE, '
AND A JURY.
^
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12
T RA NS CRI P T ORDERED BY
D A N I E L A . S PEI GHTS, ESQ.
13
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APPEARANCES :
14
FOR THE P L A I N T I F F 15
D A N I E L A. SPE I GHTS , ESQ. P. 0 . BOX 621 HAMPTON, SOUTH CAROLI NA
17
IS
19 FOR THE DEFENDANT
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BLATT S FALES BY: TERRY E. RICHARDSON,
EDWARD J . WESTBROOK, P. 0 . BOX 3 6 5 BARNWELL, SOUTH CAROL I NA
JR., ESO.
ESQ. ,
ROBI NSON, MCFADDEN, MOORE, POPE, W I L L I A M S , TAYLOR B R A I L S F O R D , PA
BY: W I L L I A M L. POPE, ESQ. FRANK R. E L L F R B E , I I I , ESQ.
P . O . BOX 9 A A C OL UMB I A, SOUTH CAROLI NA
23 MORGAN, L EWI S & BOCK 1US
BY: RI CHARD P. BROWN, J P . , ESQ.
24
PHILADELPHIA, PENNSYLVANIA
25 P
P H I L L I P W. LOTER O F F I C I A L REPORTER
U :
1 1 NDEX
) D I R E C T CROSS REDI RECT RECROSS
3 WI TNESSES FOR THE DEFENDANT:
4 JOHN HERMAN
201 BY MR. BROWN
163
199,202
S
BY MR. S PE I GHT S
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JOHN HERNAN, D E F E N D A N T ' S WI T N E S S , SWORN DIRECT EXAMINATION
3 BY MR. BROWN:
4Q 5A
MR. HERNAN, WOULD YOU G I V E US TOUR FUL L NAME, PLEASE? JOHN F. HERNAN.
6Q 7A
AND YOUR ADDRESS? LOMBARD, I L L I N O I S .
sQ
MR. HERNAN, I N ORDER NOT TO C.aUSE YOU ANY EMBARRASSMENT,
9 DO YOU HAVE A S L I G H T SPEECH I MP A I R ME NT ?
10 A
I HAVE STUTTERED S I N C E I WAS A C H I L D .
11 Q
WEL L, DURI NG THE COURSE OF T H I S E X A M I N A T I O N , JUST
i : TAKE YOUR T I M E AND WE W I L L W A I T .
i 13 WHAT I S YOUR OCCUPATI ON?
14 A
I AM THE MANAGER OF OUR CORPORATE Q U A L I T Y FOR THE U. S.
15 GYPSUM COMPANY.
;
lo Q
HOW MANY YEARS HAVE YOU BEEN WI TH U. S. GYPSUM?
37 ; A
3A YEARS.
0
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1S
AND DURI NG THAT T I M E WHAT P O S I T I O N S HAVE YOU HELD?
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19 A i
1 HAVE HAD MANY P O S I T I O N S I N O P E R A T I O N S , STAFF AND I N
T C
:o Q U A L I T Y , WORKING AT NUMEROUS PLANTS AND I N THE COR PORATE
nJT ! O F F I C E .
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-* ! Q
WHERE I S YOUR PRESENT L OCATI ON?
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I N THE CORPORATE O F F I C E I N CHI CAGO.
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24 , Q i 1
25 1 A i__ .
AND WHERE I S THAT CORPORATE O F F I C E ? 101 SOUTH WA C K E R - D R I V E .
164
1Q
I S THAT RI GHT I N THE CENTER OF CHI CAGO?
A
YES.
3Q
I S THAT B U I L D I N G THE HEADQUARTERS OF UNI T E D STATES
4 GYPSUM COMPANY?
5A
6Q
YES . ALL RIGHT.
DO YOU KNOW WHEN THAT B U I L D I N G WAS B U I L T ?
t
A
8Q
I T WAS B U I L T I N 1 9 6 3 . WERE YOU WI TH THE COMPANY THEN?
9A
YES .
10 Q
A L L R I G H T . NOW, I WOULD L I K E YOU TO TELL THE JURY
11 WHAT YOUR F I R S T ACQUAI NT ANCE WAS WI TH THE PRODUCT CALLED
12 AUDI COTE.
13 A
MY F I R S T A CQUAI NTANCE WI T H AUDI COTE WOULD HAVE BEEN I N
14 1 9 6 0 WHEN I WAS A S S I G N E D THE P O S I T I O N OF Q U A L I T Y S U P E R I N T E N
15 DENT AT THE FORT D O D G E , I O W A , P L A N T .
16 Q
AM ICORRECT THAT A U D I C O T E I S AN A C O U S T I C A L PLASTER
17 PRODUCT?
18 A
YES.
19 Q
I T COMESI N BAGS?
.
20 A 21 Q
YES. AND HOW I S I T A P P L I E D I N ORDER TO GET I T ON THE C E I L I N G ?
22 A
THERE ARE TWO GENERAL WAYS FOR THE A P P L I C A T I O N OF I T .
23 THE I N I T I A L - - TO ACQUI RE A PRESCRI BED SOUND RATI NG OF THE 24 PRODUCT, I T SHOULD BE A P P L I E D TO A O N E - H A L F I NCH T H I C K N E S S . 25 THE I N I T I A L COAT OF A P P R O X I M A T E L Y T H R E E - E I G H T H S OF AN I NCH I S
1 G5
I , A P P L I E D E I T HE R THROUGH A MACHI NE A P P L I C A T I O N OR BY HANir> OR
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BY HAND TROWLI NG.
3 Q
BY MACHI NE A P P L I C A T I O N , DO YOU MEAN SPRAYI NG I T ON?
4 |A
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5 Q
I T CAN BE SPRAYED ON. THAT MEANS YOU M I X I T WI TH WATER, THEN SPRAY THE
6 | PRODUCT ON?
I
7 iA
YES. I N ORDER TO PREPARE I T FOR A P P L I C A T I O N , I T I S
8 ; MI X E D I N , I GUESS THE BEST WORD TO USE I S AS A PLASTER M I X E R ,
9 !j THAT LARGE TUB M I X E R . I T I S POURED I NT O THE M I X E R , WATER
10 ; ADDED AND MI XED FOR ABOUT F I V E MI NUT ES TO A CHI E VE THE i
11 | HOMOGENEOUS M I X , AND THEN FROM THAT P O I N T ON WOULD BE A P P L I E D
I
12 | E I T H E R BY HAND OR BY THE MA C H I N E .
13 j Q
WHEN WAS THE F I R S T T I M E YOU EVER SAW AUDI COTE A P P L I E D
14 TO A C E I L I N G ?
15 A
I WOULD SAY I N I 9 6 0 .
16 j Q
AND HAVE YOU SEEN I T A CT UA L L Y B EI NG A P P L I E D MANY T I M E S
17 | S I N C E THEN?
18 A
YES. I WOULD E S T I M A T E THAT I HAVE SEEN I T I N EXCESS
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A HUNDRED T I M E S .
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?
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20 Q
HAVE YOU ALSO SEEN I T I N PLACE AFTER I T S BEEN A P P L I E D
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21 : T 0 C E I L I N G S ?
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22 ! A
Y E S , NUMEROUS T I M E S .
25 Q
A L L R I G H T . NOW, I N 1 9 6 3 WHEN THE U . S . GYPSUM HEADQUARTERS
24 I WAS BEI NG B U I L T , WHERE WERE YOU? I!
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25 j A
1 WAS THE Q U A L I T Y S UPERI NTENDENT OF THE FORT DODGE, I OWA,
166
] PLANT.
"I Q
D I D THE FORT DODGE, I OWA, PLANT HAVE ANY ROLE I N S UP PL Y -
I NG THE B U I L D I N G M A T E R I A L S FOR THE HEADQUARTERS I N CHI CAGO? ;
4A
I T WAS THE PLANT THAT FURNI SHED A L L OF THE PLASTER
5 PRODUCTS FOR THE CORPORATE O F F I C E B U I L D I N G .
6Q
AMONG THE PLASTER PRODUCTS THAT WERE S U P P L I E D , WAS
7 AUDI COTE ONE?
1
8A
YES.
I
9Q
A L L R I G H T . D I D YOU S UP E R V I S E THE ACTUAL PREPARATI ON
.
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10 OF THE PRODUCT I N I T S SHI PMENT TO CHI CAGO?
.
11 A YES.
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12 Q
NOW, WERE YOU PRESENT I N CHI CAGO I N 1 9 6 2 WHEN AN
13 EXPERI MENT WAS DONE ON THE C E I L I N G OF THE 17TH FLOOR OF
14 THE HEADQUARTERS?
1
15 A
IN 1982.
16 Q
'82?
17 A
Y E S , I WAS PRESENT.
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18 Q
YOU WERE T HE RE . A L L R I G H T . NOW, D I D THERE COME A T I M E
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19 AFTER THAT E XPERI MENT WAS DONE WHEN A QUESTI ON WAS R A I S E D AS i
20 TO WHETHER THE MA T E R I A L ON THE C E I L I N G OF . T HE 17TH FLOOR
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21 ACT UAL L Y WAS A U D I C OT E ?
22 A
YES.
23 Q WAS THAT AFTER THE EXP E RI ME NT WAS DONE?
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24 A YES.
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25 Q WERE YOU ASKED TO UNDERTAKE ANY K I N D OF I N V E S T I G A T I O N
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1 TO DETERMI NE WHETHER THAT C E I L I N G REALLY WAS AUD1COTE?
1 :A ! i
YES.
Q
A L L R I G H T . WHAT D I D YOU DO I N YOUR I N V E S T I G A T I O N I N
i
4 j ORDER TO DETERMI NE THE ANSWER?
5 !A
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WE L L , I S UP ER VI S E D THE REMOVAL OF TWO LARGE SLABS OF
6 I THE C E I L I N G ASSEMBLY ADJ A CE NT TO THE TEST AREA AND HAD THOSE iI
SAMPL ES CUT OUT OF THE C E I L I N G A R E A , MOVED THEM TO MY O F F I C E , !
8 ! AND I SUBSEQUENTLY HAD I T MOVED TO THE RESEARCH CENTER.
9 |Q i
WHAT WAS DONE AT THE RESEARCH CENTER?
10 | A
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THEN THE RESEARCH CENTER PREPARED SAMPLES FROM THE SLABS
11 ! AND TESTED THE SAMPLES. j
12 j Q
TESTED THEM TO DETERMI NE WHAT?
i 13 ! A
TO DETERMI NE THE C H E MI S T RY OF THE PRODUCT.
i 14 j Q
WAS THE RESULT OF THAT T EST REPORTED BACK TO YOU?
15 A
NO.
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MR. S P E I G H T S : I WOULD OBJECT TO THE RESULT COMING
17 I N THROUGH T H I S GENTLEMAN AS HEARSAY, YOUR HONOR.
18
MR. BROWN: I ONLY ASKED I F I T WAS REPORTED BACK
19 | T O H I M , YOUR HONOR.
20 !
THE COURT: I ' M AWARE OF WHAT A L L YOU HAVE ASKED.
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MR. BROWN: AM 1 ALLOWED TO HAVE HI M ANSWER, YOUR
HONOR?
23
THE COURT : YES .
I
24 Q
WOULD YOU ANSWER THAT Q U E S T I O N , MR. HERMAN?
25 A
1 D I D NOT SEE THE TEST R E S U L T S .
163
1Q
WHAT ELSE WAS DONE WI T H THE SLAB THAT WAS SENT TO THE
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RESEARCH LABORATORY?
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3A
THE SLAB WAS CUT I NTO V A R I O U S P I ECE S FOR SU3SE0UENT
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4 T E S T I N G BY THE ONTARI O RESEARCH FOUNDATI ON AND ALSO FOR
5 i E X H I B I T S AS MI GHT BE NEEDED.
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6Q
WHERE I S THE ONTARI O RESEARCH FOUNDATI ON?
.
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A
THAT I S I N A SUBURB OF TORONTO, CANADA.
'
8Q
A L L R I G H T . NOW, WERE THERE SOME SMALL SAMPLES TAKEN
.
9 FROM THAT SLAB THAT YOU HAD CUT OUT OF THE 17TH FLOOR?
!
10 A
I HAD PURPOSELY TWO, ROUGHLY S I X - I N C H BY S I X - I N C H S L A B S ,
11 CUT FROM THE MASTER SLAB AND ENCAPSULATED WI TH A P L A S T I C
,
12 S I D I N G ON I T .
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13 Q
1 SHOW YOU T H I S OBJECT WHI CH HAS BEEN MARKED AS
14 DE F E N D A N T S ' E X H I B I T 1 AND ASK YOU I F T H A T ' S ONE OF THE P I ECES
15 THAT WAS PREPARED OUT OF THAT SLAB?
?
16 A
YES .
17 Q
A L L R I G H T . NOW, ARE YOU F A M I L I A R FROM YOUR PAST
O
18 EXP E RI E NCE WI T H THE LOOKS OF A UDI COT E AND THE TEXTURE OF
AUD1 C0 TE AND THE HARDNESS OR THE C H A R A C T E R I S T I C S OF AUDI COTE?
i
20 A
YES.
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S
21 j Q
I N YOUR O P I N I O N , BASED ON YOUR E X P E R I E N C E , I S THAT SAMc LE
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^ 1 A SAMPLE OF A UDI COT E ?
1
23 A
YES.
24 Q
D I D YOU ALSO EXAMI NE THE S P E C I F I C A T I O N S FOR THE B U I L D I N G
25 | OF THE U. S. GYPSUM HEADQUARTERS?
H .J. 0
'O
169
1A
YES .
*>
Q
D I D YOU LOOK AT THE S P E C I F I C A T I O N S FOR WHAT WAS TO BE
!
3 PUT ON THE 1 7 TH FLOOR C E I L I N G ?
4A
YES.
5Q
WHAT D I D THES P E C I F I C A T I O N S PROVI DE?
6A
THES P E C I F I C A T I O N S
CAL L ED FOR THE A C O U S T I C A L PLASTER
7 I N THE B U I L D I N G , I N C L U D I N G THE 17TH FLOOR, TO BE U. S. G.
S AUDICOTE ACOUSTICAL PLASTER.
9Q
AT THE TI ME WHEN THE B U I L D I N G WAS B U I L T , WERE YOU
10 AWARE OF ANY I N S T R U C T I O N S AS TO WHETHER THE B U I L D I N G MA T E R I A L S
11 TO BE USED WERE TO BE U. S. GYPSUM' S PRODUCTS OR ANYBODY
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12 E L S E ' S ?
13 A
YES.
14 Q
WHAT WERE THEI N S T R U C T I O N S ?
15 A
WHAT WE HAD WAS A D I R E C T I V E THAT A L L OF THE PRODUCTS TO
16 BE USED I N THE B U I L D I N G WERE TQ BE MANUFACTURED BY THE
17 U. S. GYPSUM COMPANY.
'
18 Q
TO THE BEST OF YOUR KNOWLEDGE, WAS THAT ORDER CARRI ED
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19 OUT?
.
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20 A
YES.
21
MR. BROWN: YOU MAY CROSS E X A M I N E .
X i.
CROSS E X A M I N A T I O N
23 BY MR. S P E I G H T S :
24 Q
MR. HERNAN, YOU HAVE HAD AN A C T I V E ROL E ' I N ' S C H O O L L I T I G A T I O
25
S I NCE I T ' S BEEN F I L E D A G A I N S T U. S. GYPSUM, H A V E N ' T YOU?
I Q
YOU HAVE WORKED CL OSEL Y ON THESE CASES AND, I NDEED,
HAVE ANSWERED I NT E RROGA T OR I E S CONCERNI NG THESE CASES, ' H A V E N ' T YOU?
A
YES.
Q
AND YOU HAVE COL LECTED I N F O R MA T I O N CONCERNING THESE
: CASES?
! A
YES.
i Q
AND YOU HAVE WORKED CLOSELY WI T H MS. TORY AND DR. KORN
; I N PREPARI NG THE TEST OF T H I S PRODUCT, WHATEVER I T I S , ON | THE 1 7TH FLOOR?
! A
YES.
; Q
AND I T HAS BEEN K I N D OF YOUR L I T T L E JEWEL W I T H I N THE
i COMPANY, HASN' T I T ?
YOU HAVE BEEN THE COMPANY MAN REGARDI NG
; T H I S T E S T , H A V E N ' T YOU?
;A
YES.
iQ
HOW, WHAT YOU' RE T R Y I N G TO T E L L US TODAY, AS I GATHER,
I
| I S THAT THAT SAMPLE RI GHT THERE IS A U D I C OT E . YOU' RE TRYI NG
TO I D E N T I F Y THE PRODUCT FOR US, I S THAT F A I R ?
A
YES .
Q
WELL, WOULD YOU AGREE THAT THERE I S MORE THAN OIKE WAY
TO I D E N T I FY A PRODUCT?
A
YES.
Q
ONE WAY, AT L EAST SOME E V I DE NCE OF I T , I B E L I E V E YOU
: ALL UDED TO, WOULD B t S P E C I F I C A T I O N S . T H A T ' S I MPORTANT TO YOU
171
] I N YOUR C O N S I D E R A T I O N OF WHAT A PRODUCT I S ?
"1 | A
THAT I S THE S T A R T I N G P O I N T .
3 jQ
YES, S I R . 1 MEAN, T H A T ' S YOUR S T A RT I NG P O I N T , S P E C I F I
4 C A T I O N S . AND THEN I F YOU CAN F I N D THE A R C H I T E C T , YOU WOULD 5 \ VA NT TO TALK TO THE A R C H I T E C T TO SEE WHETHER THERE WERE ANY
6 SHANGE ORD, RS ON THE S P E C I F I C A T I O N S , WOULDN' T YOU?
7 A
8Q
YES. THAT WOULD BE A REASONABLE STEP I N REGARD TO I . D . ?
9 |A
YES.
10 ' Q
THEN I F YOU COULD F I N D THE ACTUAL PLASTERER WHO A L L I E D
11 THE M A T E R I A L , THAT WOULD BE A REASONABLE STEP TO GO TALK
12 ; TO H I M AND ASK H I M WHETHER OR NOT I T WAS AUDI COT E?
13 ! A
YES.
14 . Q
THEN I F YOU HAD SOME SALES I N V O I C E S FROM A SUPPLY HOUSE,
15 | THAT WOULD BE A REASONABLE T H I N G TO DO, SEE I F YOU COULD GET
16 SOME SALES I N V O I C E S TO SHOW A SHI PMENT OF AUDI COTE FOR A
i 17 C E R T A I N USE?
18 A
!
19 i Q
I F I T SHOWED I T GOI NG TO THAT P AR T I CUL AR J O B , YES. YES, S I R . AND SOME SALES I N V O I C E S MI GHT HAVE THE
20 I JOB FOR WHICH THAT I N V O I C E OR THAT SHI PMENT WAS I NTENDED?
1
21 : A Y E S .
22 | Q
A L L R I G H T , S I R . THEN ANOTHER WAY MI GHT BE TO TA L K TO
23 THE SALESMAN, I F A U . S . G . SALESMAN REMEMBERED S E L L I N G A
24 i PRODUCT FOR A C E R T A I N B U I L D I N G , A SCHOOL OR WHATEVER, THAT
25 WOULD BE A REASONABLE STEP I N PRODUCT I D , TO TA L K TO THE
172
1 SALESMAN?
1
!Ii A YES. '
1
i
3 iQ
AND THEN. I N A D D I T I O N TO T H A T , YOU COULD HAVE I T
4 | ANALYZED BY ONE OF THESE MI C R O S C O P 1 STS L I K E DR. ROHL OR 5 1 MS. LAVOTI.
6 :A
i 7 :Q
YES . SO T H A T ' S ANOTHER WAY OF T RY I NG TO I D E N T I F Y THE PRODUCT.
8 ! AND AS I GATHER FROM F HAT YOU S A I D WHEN QUESTI ONED BY COUNSEL 9 I S THAT YOU CAN ALSO LOOK AT I T , I F YOU ARE E XP ERI ENCED WI TH
10 ii I T ; I N OTHER WORDS, SOMEBODY L I K E YOU THAT HAS SEEN A LOT OF 11 AUDI COTE OVER THE Y EARS, YOU CAN LOOK AT I T AND T H A T ' S SOME
12 EVI DENCE OF PRODUCT I D?
,
13 A
YES.
V
34 Q
A L L R I G H T , S I R . AND THE SAME WOULD HOLD TRUE I F SOMEBODY
15 L I K E HOLBROOK W I L L I A M S WHO HAD BEEN I NVOLVED I N THE BUSI NESS
5in
16 FOR 20 OR 30 YEARS WI TH YOUR PRODUCT, HE WOULD BE PRETTY
u.
1 ao:
17 GOOD AT LOOKI NG AT I T , TOO; WOULDN' T HE?
o 18 A I T H I N K THERE COULD BE A Q UE ST I ON I N THAT P ART I CUL AR
i z
19 AREA.
.
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20 ! Q
WEL L, S I R , YOU MEAN A MAN WHO HAS BEEN P UT T I NG I T UP
S
21 FOR 20 OR 30 YEARS WOUL DN' T BE AS COMPETENT TO LOOK AT I T
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22 ; AS YOU WOULD?
23 ! A 1
24 Q
I WOULD SAY NO. ALL RIGHT, SIR.
NOW, WHEN YOU TOOK THESE SAMPLES, I
25 ! ASSUME YOU D I D N ' T PREDETERMI NE SOME S P E C I A L PLACE I N THE
73
1 C E I L I N G TO GET OUT OF THE l ' ' T H FLOOR, BUT YOU WENT DOWN AND 2 P I CKE D I T AT RANDOM, A F A I R SAMPLE OUT OF THE C E I L I N G ?
3A
YES.
:
4Q
ALL RIGHT, SIR.
ANDTOOK TWO I LABS TOB E GI N WI TH?
5A
YES.
Cs Q
NOW, YOU WOULD AGREE WI T H ME, WOUL DN' T YOU, MR. HERMAN,
7 THAT T H I S MA T E R I A L RI GHT HERE I S A HARD M A T E R I A L ?
8A
YES.
9Q
NOW, YOU HAVE - r U. S. GYPSUM HAS A D V E R T I S E D AUDI COTE
10 OVER THE YEARS, H A S N ' T I T ?
11 A
YES.
i
12 Q AND AS APART OF THATADV ERT I S E ME NT YOU SEND OUT BROCHURES,
13 D O N ' T YOU?
14 A
YES.
15 Q
A L L R I G H T , S I R . I ASK YOU I F T H I S I S A COPY OF A
16 BROCHURE FOR A U D I C O T E , 1 9 6 2 , WHI CH WOULD HAVE BEEN A P P L I C A B L E
17 TO THE SALE OF IRMO H I G H SCHOOL, OR AT L EAST THE F I R S T PART
18 OF I T ?
19 A
YES.
i
20 Q
A L L R I G H T , S I R . AND I ASK YOU, MR. HERMAN, ON T H I S
21
BROCHURE AT PAGE 2 I F I T D O E S N ' T SAY " A U D I COTE : DOES NOT SET
22
INTO A DENSE, HARD MASS" ?
23 A
I WOULD HAVE TO READ I T . I D I D NOT READ I T .
24 QA L L R I G H T , S I R . WOULD YOU READ THAT F I R S T P A R A G R A P H ?
,
25
AND I ASK YOU WHETHER OR NOT T H A T ' S AN ACCURATE STATEMENT
;
174
] !| CONTAI NED I N YOUR BROCHURE?
I 2 ! A t
3 |Q
I
THAT IS A CORRECT STATEMENT. A L L R I G H T . AND THEN I ASK YOU WHETHER FURTHER DOWN
4 ! YOUR BROCHURE A D V E R T I S I N G T H I S PRODUCT DOE SN' T SAY, " A U D I C O T E
5 I S RECOMMENDED FOR USE ON C E I L I N G S OR WA L L S , WALL AREAS,
6 ; NOT SUBJECT TO CONTACT, E X C E S S I V E V I B R A T I O N OR HI GH MOI S T URE .
7 I T I S I D E A L FOR USE I N C L A S S R O O MS . " I S THAT ALSO A CORRECT
S STATEMENT T H A T ' S I N YOUR BROCHURE, MR. HERNAN?
9 |A
YES.
10 | Q
A L L R I G H T , S I R . SO THE I MPORT OF THAT STATEMENT I S THAT
j 11 | T H I S M A T E R I A L , T H I S HARD M A T E R I A L , S H O U L D N ' T BE USED WHERE
i: | THERE I S GOING TO BE ANY V I B R A T I O N OR WATER DAMAGE OR ANY
13 j CONTACT WI TH THE M A T E R I A L ; I S N ' T THAT CORRECT?
t 14 ' A
THAT I S WHAT THE STATEMENT STATES.
15 j Q
T H A T ' S WHAT YOU REPRESENTED THE PRODUCT TO PEOPLE L I K E
16 j IRMO HI GH SCHOOL, OUT THERE I N THE F I E L D WI TH T H I S BROCHURE;
17 ' I S N ' T THAT R I G H T , MR. HERNAN? i
IS ' A
YES.
19 ! Q
MR. HERNAN, HAVE YOU EVER HAD AN OPPORTUNI TY TO EXAMI NE
20 A RESEARCH REPORT DATED MARCH 9 , 1 9 7 3 , P RE VI OUS L Y MARKED AS
i P L A I N T I F F ' S E X H IB I T 1 7 0 7 , EN TITLED, "DEVELOPMENT 0 F
22 , M A T E R I A L S AND PROCEDURES FOR R E P A I R I N G DAMAGED AUDI COTE
i 23 A C O U S T I C A L PLASTER C E I L I N G S " ? !
24 ! a
I DO NOT T H I N K THAT I SAW THAT S P E C I F I C REPORT.
25
A L L R I G H T , S I R . I SHOW YOU A COPY OF 1 7 0 7 AND ASK YOU
175
1 1 TO REVI EW I T AND ASK YOU WHETHER OR NOT YOU HAVE EVER SEEN
'
i 2 i THAT REPORT?
3 !A
I ' M CONSCI OUS OF THE E X I S T E N C E OF T H I S REPORT AND I
:
i 4 | SAW I T RECENTLY FOR THE F I R S T T I M E .
5 .Q
A L L R I G H T , S I R . I WANT TO TALK ABOUT T H I S REPORT TO TOU.
6 | THE F I R S T L I N E OF T H I S REPORT, 1 9 7 3 , S A Y S , " A U D I C OT E A COUS T I CA L
PLASTER WAS USED I N THE U . S . G . CORPORATE O F F I C E , 17TH FLOOR
.
8 : AND C A F E T E R I A . THESE AREAS ARE I N NEED OF R E P A I R , BUT
9 ! CONTRACTORS W I L L NOT USE STANDARD A UDI COT E BECAUSE OF I T S
;
10 ! ASBESTOS C O N T E N T . "
11
I S THAT A F A I R READI NG OF THAT?
!
12 A
YES.
!
13 Q
T H A T ' S THE 1 7TH FLOOR, NOW, WHI CH I S PART OF THAT SAMPLE i
14 RI GHT THERE; I S N ' T I T ?
15 A
YES.
;
16 Q
AND THEN AS A RESULT OF T H I S , YOU - - THAT I S , U . S . G . ,
l
J" ENTERED I NTO A PROGRAM TO R E P A I R THE C E I L I N G CONTAI NED ON
<E
^ c
18 THE 17TH FLOOR?
o
,,
19 A
I T H I N K THE WORD R E P A I R I S USED I N A FASHI ON THAT DOES
7-
i
20 NOT STATE WHAT WAS DONE.
.
c
e
2i ; Q
WELL, S I R , L E T ' S LOOK AT WHAT WAS DONE ON PAGE 2 TO THAT
c.
7t
'*>** ! 1 7 TH FLOOR.
j
23
" M A T E R I A L S AND PROCEDURES FOR R E P A I R AND P A I N T I N G OF
24 DAMAGED AUDI COTE PL ASTER C E I L I N G S , " T H A T ' S WHAT WAS DONE,
25 | WASN' T I T ?
176
1A
T H A T ' S WHAT T H I S S T A T E S .
Q
A L L R I G H T , S I R . WE L L , THE F I R S T T H I N G THAT YOU HAD ON
1j
3 j T H I S - - WELL, LET ME BACK UP A M I N U T E . I HAVE LEFT OUT
4 ; SOMETHING. ,
5 1
T H I S 17TH FLOOR C E I L I N G , I FORGET BECAUSE I ' V E BEEN
6 , TO CHI CAGO, BUT THE 17TH FLOOR C E I L I N G I S I N YOUR CORPORATE
HEADQUARTERS; I S N ' T THAT RIGHT?
8 iA |
9Q
YES. I N FA CT, I T ' S UP THERE WHERE YOUR CORPORATE BOARD OF
.0 I DI RECTORS FOR U N I T E D STATES GYPSUM MEETS?
11 A
YES.
12 Q
I T ' S UP THERE WHERE YOUR P R E S I D E N T HAD I T S O F F I C E ?
A
YES.
k
13
14 Q
SO THAT I S SORT OF A S P E C I A L FLOOR FOR THE U. S. GYPSUM
15 B U I L D I N G , T H A T ' S YOUR TOP L EV E L MANAGEMENT WHI CH OCCUPI ES
;
16 THAT FLOOR, I S N ' T I T ?
* ft
17 A
YES.
;
IS Q
SO I I MA G I N E THAT I F - - I HAVE WORKED FOR A FEW BOSSES
ec>
c
,
19 BEFORE, I WOULD I M A G I N E THAT E VE RY T HI NG I S DONE TO KEEP
Xf.
2 0 ` THAT FLOOR AND THAT SPACE I N T I P - T O P SHAPE; I S THAT A F A I R
|
I
21 I STATEMENT?
c.
\
22 i A
YES.
23 j Q
NOW, I S N ' T I T CORRECT, MR. HERNAN, THAT YOU COULD HAVE - -
24 YOU HAVE COMPUTERI ZED SALES RECORDS WHI CH REFLECT SALES OF
25 I AUDI COTE PRODUCT 5 SI NCE 1
I_______________________
77
1A
I C A N ' T ANSWER T HA T . 1 D O N ' T KNOW.
|
2Q
YOU WEREN' T THE ONE THAT GOT THE COMPUTER I NFORMATI ON
3 AND S UP P L I E D US ABOUT SALES OF AUD1COTE?
4A
NO.
5Q
YOU DON' T KNOW WHETHER OR NOT YOU COULD GO TO YOUR SALES
6 O F F I C E AND LOCATE OTHER B U I L D I N G S WHERE AUDI COTE WOULD BE?
7A
I CANNOT STATE OF KNOWI NG OF ANY OTHER B U I L D I N G S WHERE
8 OUR MA T E R I A L I S I N .
9Q
YOU D O N ' T T H I N K THAT U. S. GYPSUM COULD F I N D AUDI COTE
10 I N SOME B U I L D I N G AWAY FROM THAT CORPORATE HEADQUARTERS I N A i
11 SCHOOLHOUSE OR CLASSROOM OR I . B . M . B U I L D I N G OR SOMETHI NG
1
12 L I K E T H A T , I F THEY WANTED TO?
,
13 A
WE COULD, I ' M C E R T A I N , I F WE LOOKED.
14 Q
A L L R I G H T , S I R . ARE YOU T R Y I N G TO T E L L US DOWN HERE
15 I N SOUTH CA ROL I N A THAT THE CORPORATE HEADQUARTERS I N CHI CAGO
16 WOULD BE SUBJECT TO THE SAME H I S T O R Y WI TH YOUR PRODUCT AS
17 A CLASSROOM I N I RMO?
IS A
I DON' T B E L I E V E THAT THE SALES RECORDS WERE KEPT FOR THAT
19 LONG OF A P E R I O D . THERE WAS NO - - I DON' T T H I N K THAT THERE
20 WAS ANY B A S I C REASON FOR K E E P I N G OF SALES RECORDS L I K E T H A T ,
21 THAT PERI OD OF T I M E .
22 Q
MY Q U E S T I O N , THOUGH, MR. HERMAN, WAS WHETHER THE CORPORATE
23 HEADQUARTERS C E I L I N G I S SUPPOSED TO BE WHAT YOU WOULD T H I N K
24 A C E I L I N G WOULD BE I N BETHEL B A P T I S T CHURCH OR I N THE IRMO
:
25 HI GH SCHOOL OR I N SOME OTHER B U I L D I N G ? WOULD YOU E N V I S I O N
178
1 THAT THAT PRODUCT WAS PUT TO THE SAME USE, WAS PUT TO THE 1 SAME H I S T O R Y , AS 1RMO HI G H SCHOOL?
3A
I WOULD SEE NO ACTUAL REASON NOT TO BE THE SAME.
4Q
WE L L , TO BEGI N W I T H , YOU DO N ' T HAVE A FLAT ROOF, DO
5 YOU? THE 17TH FLOOR I S NOT YOUR TOP FLOOR, I S I T ?
6A
THERE I S A MECHANI CAL ROOF OVER I T .
7Q
A L L R I G H T , S I R . AND I D O N ' T B E L I E V E THE PRESI DENT OF
S U . S . G . HAS EVER GONE DOWN THE HAL L AND WRI T T E N ANY G R A F F I T I
9 ON THE A U D I C O T E , HAS HE? YOU H A V E N ' T EVER SEEN T HA T , HAVE
10 YOU?
11 A
12 Q
I DOUBT I T . ALL RIGHT, SIR.
AND YOU DOUBT THAT - - YOU WOULDN' T
13 I MA G I N E THE P RE SI DE NT TO GO DOWN AND JUST GOI NG DOWN TO
34 CLASS AND GO UP AND DO L I K E T H A T , WOULD YOU?
15 A
I DOUBT I T .
16 Q
A L L R I G H T , S I R . BUT YOU HAVE JUST TOLD US AWHI LE AGO
17 I F YOU WANTED TO F I N D SOME A U D I C O T E SOMEWHERE ELSE BESI DES
18 THE 1 7TH FLOOR, YOU COULD HAVE FOUND I T , COUL DN' T YOU?
19 A
YES .
20 Q
A L L R I G H T , S I R . BUT EVEN THE 1 7TH FLOOR OF YOUR
21 CORPORATE HEADQUARTERS RE F L ECT S T HA I I N 1 9 7 3 , EI GHT YEARS
22 BEFORE YOU RAN T H I S P R O J E C T , YOU WORKED ON T H I S C E I L I N G ;
23 I S N ' T THAT CORRECT? U . S . G . WORKED ON I T ?
24 A 25 Q
YES . ALL RIGHT, SIR.
AND THE F I R S T T H I N G YOU D I D WAS YOU HAD
179
1 O I L SPOTS, EVEN ON THE 1 7 T H FLOOR, YOU HAD SOME O I L SPOTS 2 ON THAT C E I L I N G , D I D N ' T YOU?
3A
T H A T ' S WHAT T H I S S T A T E S .
4Q
A L L R I G H T , S I R . AND TO GET R I D OF THOSE O I L SPOTS
5 YOU CUT OUT A S E C T I ON OF THE C E I L I N G C O N T A I N I N G THE O I L
6 SPOT S U F F I C E N T L Y LARGE TO REMOVE O I L SATURATED M A T E R I A L ,
7 REMOVI NG A COUS T I CAL P L A S T E R , BASE COAT PLASTER AND ROCK
8 LATHE, I S N ' T THAT CORRECT?
9A
YES.
10 Q
YOU WENT A L L THE WAY DOWN TO THE BASE WHEN YOU STARTED
11 R E P A I R I N G T H I S S UBSTANCE, D I D N ' T YOU?
12 A
YES.
13 Q |i
TO REMOVE THOSE. AND THEN WHAT YOU D I D , YOU WENT BACK
14 j I N THAT C A V I T Y THAT WAS F I L L E D AND YOU STARTED PATCHI NG I T
15 | WI TH SOME MA T E R I A L ?
5
16 , A
YES.
u.
i
nr
17 Q
A L L R I G H T , S I R . WE W I L L GET TO WHAT YOU USED TO
O
i
PATCH I T I N A FEW M I N U T E S . NOW, THE SECOND T H I N G YOU HAD fo-.
3
19 1 ON THE CORPORATE HEADQUARTERS UP THERE WAS GOUGES AND
Z
1
20 ! SCRATCHES, LOOKS L I K E YOUR P RE S I DE NT OR SOMEBODY MAY HAVE
<a.
S
21 , BEEN GOUGING AND SCRATCHI NG THAT M A T E R I A L A L I T T L E B I T A - T E R
c
t
22
A L L . I S THAT RI GHT?
i
23 ! A i
APPARENTLY THERE WERE SOME SCRATCHES.
24 i Q
A L L R I G H T , S I R . SO WI T H REGARD TO THE SCRATCHES AND
25 GOUGES, YOU USED AN I MPLEMENT AND A SMALL PAI NTBRUSH AND SOME
1 BO
1 ; M I X I N G FORMULA TO F I L L THE C A V I T I E S WHERE THOSE SCRATCHES
;
-> j <UJD GOUGES HAD TAKEN PLACE?
! i
ii
3A
YES.
;
4 ' Q
I S N ' T THAT WHAT THAT REFL ECTS?
,
5
A L L R I G H T . AND I T SAYS FOR DEEP GOUGES A SECOND TOUCH- UP
6 WI T H THE SAME TYPE OF PAT CHI NG M I X , USI NG A SMALL F A I N T BRUSH,
7 ; MAY BE NECESSARY; I S THAT CORRECT?
Si
]
! A
YES.
:
9 1Q
THEN THE T H I R D T H I N G YOU HAD, YOU HAD AREAS WI TH SURFACE
i
i
10
i
, DAMAGEFROM
WATER L EA K A GE .
SO YOU HAD SOMEWATER LEAKAGE
;
l; j UP THERE ON YOUR A U D I C O T E ON THE 17THFLOOR,
TOO, D I D N ' T
I
12 ; YOU?
i
I
,
13 | A
APPARENTLY.
'
i
14 1 Q
YES , S I R . AND YOU HAD TO GO R E P A I R THOSEUP T HE RE ,
|
IS : TOO, D I D N ' T YOU?
16 , A
YES.
17 | Q
A L L R I G H T , S I R . SO, NOW, TO R E P A I R T H I S WATER
DAMAGE
-
IS ; ON THE 17TH FL OOR, YOU REMOVED A P P R O X I MA T E L Y T WO- I NCH DI A ME TE R
19 ! SECTI ONS OF A C O U S T I C A L PL ASTER DOWN TO THE BASE COAT SURFACE j
20 THERE. YOU WENT BACK DOWN TO THE BASE COAT ON THAT TO REMOVE .
2 i ; I T , D I D N ' T YOU?
,
22 ; A
YES.
'
23 ; Q AND THEN YOU HAD TO GO I N THERE AND PATCH THATM A T E R I A L
|
I
|
24 I AS WELL?
25 | A
YES.
181
1 !q
NOW, I [.'ON 1T HAVE THE LAST TWO - - T H I S I S A FOUR- PAGE
I
| DOCUMENT, I S N ' T I T , THE ONE YOU HAVE GOT I N YOUR HAND, AND
THE F I R S T TWO PAGES I HAVE GOT COP I E D HERE?
4 jA
3 AND A.
5 Q i
A L L R I G H T , S I R . WE L L , TURN OVER TO PAGE 2 , AND I T
' R E F L E C T S , I B E L I E V E , DOES I T , MR. HERNAN, THAT AFTER YOU D I D
T H I S , THAT I S , AFTER YOU TOOK I T DOWN TO BASE COAT AND
i I
8 ! F I L L E D I T I N WI T H T H I S M A T E R I A L , THEN YOU HAD TO GO OVER AND
9 YOU HAD TO P A I N T I T ?
10 !I A
YES.
11 | Q
SO YOU P A I N T E D THAT E N T I R E M A T E R I A L UP THERE ON THE
i 12 | 17TH FLOOR?
{ 13 {j A YES .
!
14 | Q
NOW, WOULD YOU READ THE LAST PARAGRAPH, L I T T L E C, FOR
15 i ME DOWN ON THE BOTTOM OF PAGE - - WE L L , I T SAYS PAGE 2 UNDER
16 ; PARAGRAPH 3 . CAN YOU F I N D THAT ON YOURS?
17 | A
YES. THIS IS 5 - C . "WITH APPRECIABLE REDUCTION IN
I IS ! SOUND A BSORPTI ON AND A S L I G H T L Y D I F F E R E N T TE X TURE , BUT WI TH
19 A HARDER SURFACE, TO M I N I M I Z E SURFACE DAMAGE FROM MI NOR
20 I A B R A S I O N .
21 ; Q
YOU GOT THE STUFF HARDER, D I D N ' T YOU?
22 : A
THE PATCHED AREAS.
I 23 Q I 1I
YES, S I R . YOU B U I L T YOU A NEW C E I L I N G
24 1 CHI CA GO, D I D N ' T YOU?
UP THERE I N
25 A
1 WOULD SAY NO.
182
1Q
YOU P AT CHf D I T , YOU P A I N T E D I T AND YOU PUT PREMI X I N
T
AND YOU COUL DN' T GET AN' ASBESTOS TO PUT I N THE M I X , COULD
3 YOU?
,
4A
NO.
5Q
AND ' 7 3 , A YEAR BEFORE I RMO GOT I T S LAST BATCH OF
6 AUD1 COTE, YCU COULDN' T GET ANYBODY TO PUT AUDI COT E UP I N YOUR
7 C E I L I N G , COULD YOU?
,
8A
WE WERE NOT MAKI NG THE PRODUCT AT THAT T I M E .
i
9Q
Y ES , S I R . BUT D O E S N ' T I T ALSO SAY HERE, " THESE AREAS
,
10 ARE I N NEED OF RE P AI R BUT CONTRACTORS W I L L NOT USE STANDARD
11 AUDI COT E BECAUSE OF I T S ASBESTOS CONTENT" ?
12 A
STANDARD A UDI COT E WAS NOT MADE AT THAT T I M E .
13 Q
Y E S , S I R . BUT EVEN I F I T HAD BEEN, OR I F YOU HAD SOME
14 S T I L L AROUND, OR I F YOU WANTED TO GO OVER THERE AND MAKE SOME,
15 YOU KNEW A YEAR BEFORE IRMO HI G H SCHOOL I N ' 7 4 PURCHASED
16 AUDI COTE THAT CONTRACTORS I N YOUR AREA WOULDN' T EVEN PUT I T
17 I N YOUR B U I L D I N G ?
18 i 19 1
MR. BROWN: O B J E C T I O N , YOUR HONOR. THE COURT: OVERRULED.
20 : A
I
I ' M NOT PERSONALLY CONSCI ONABL E OF KNOWLEDGE OF THAT
21 ; M Y S E L F .
;
THE COURT: YOU HAD SEEN THE REPORT, HA DN' T YOU?
23 i
THE W I T N E S S : I SAW I T W I T H I N THE LAST WEEK.
I
24 | Q
!
T H A T ' S WHAT THE DOCUMENT R E F L E C T S , ANYWAY, THOUGH,
25 ; D O E S N' T I T ?
183
1A 2Q
YES.
1;
NOW, MR. HERMAN, ] T H I N K I ASKFD YOU A FEW MI NUTES AGO
!
3 I F YOU ALSO HAD NOT BEEN THE MAN TO ANSWER I NTERROGATORI ES
;
4 FOR T H I S CASE, L EX I NGT ON CASE?
:
5A
YES.
!
6Q
A L L R I G H T , S I R . AND FOR THE L A D I E S AND GENTLEMEN OF THE
7 ; J U R Y , WHEN YOU ANSWER AN I NTERROGATORY, YOU UNDERSTAND THAT
I 8 ! t h a t I S A QUEST I ON T H A T ' S PART OF A COURT PROCEDURE WHICH
9 1 MUST BE ANSWERED UNDER OATH? i
10 A
YES.
11 i Q
A L L R I G H T , S I R . 1 ASK YOU, MR. HERMAN, WHETHER I N
12 i JUNE OF 1 9 8 2 WE ASKED YOU THE FOLLOWI NG QUE ST I ON AND U . S . G .
13 ! GAVE THE FOLLOWI NG RESPONSE:
34 !
"WHEN AND BY WHAT MANNER WERE YOU FI RST AWARE OF THE
15 HAZARDS OF ASBESTOS AND A S B E S T O S - C O N T A I N I N G PRODUCTS -- M
;
16 ; LET ME TRY A G A I N .
"WHEN AND BY WHAT MANNER WERE YOU F I R S T AWARE OF THE
1 C
17 i
1 HAZARDS OF ASBESTOS AND A S E E S T O S - C O N T A I N I N G PRODUCTS TO
.
18
"
19 i THE USERS OF THOSE PRODUCTS?
'
;
20
ANSWER: " T H I S DEFENDANT -- "
c.
i
21 ;
c
MR. BROWN: O B J E C T I O N , YOUR HONOR, T H I S QUESTI ON
l
2 2 ; I S ASKED OF THE DE F E NDA NT , I T ' S NOT ASKED OF MR. HERNAN.
23
THE COURT: OVERRULED.
24 i o ! v
' ' T H I S DEFENDANT STATES THAT W I T H ' R E S P E C T TO THE DANGERS
25
ASSOCIATED w it h e x p o s u re to a s b e s t o s , l a t e 1 9 6 0 'S , and w i t h
184
1
RESPECT TO A C O U S T I C A L PLASTERS AS MANUFACTURED / ND SOLD
THIS DEFENDANT, NEVER ."
3 i
WAS THAT THE ANSWER THAT YOU V E R I F I E D UNDER OATH
4 : I N L EXI NGTON CO UNT Y ' S CASE BACK I N JUNE OF 1 9 8 2 ?
5A
YES .
6 IQ
WE L L , NOW, MR. HERNAN, YOU HAVE SEEN, I ASSUME, THE
REPORT ON THE EFFECTS OF ASBESTOS DUST ON THE LUNGS, DATED
8
1 9 3 0 , WHICH WAS I N THE U. S. GYPSUM L I B R A R Y ?
9A
I HAVE SEEN THAT W I T H I N THE LAST SEVERAL DAYS.
10 Q
A L L R I G H T , S I R . YOU WOULD AGREE WI T H ME THAT THAT
11 DI SCUSSES THE DANGERS OF ASBESTOS?
12 , A
YES.
13 [ Q
HAVE YOU SEEN THE U N I T E D STATES GYPSUM COMPANY L I B R A R Y ' S
14 COPY OF A REVI EW OF P N E U M O C O N I O S I S , DATED 1 9 3 1 ?
1? I A
W I T H I N THE LAST SEVERAL DAYS.
;
16 , Q
AND THAT DOCUMENT D 1 SCUSSES ASBESTOS AND ASBESTOS-
U ?a. 17 i RELATED DI S EA S E BACK I N THE 1 9 3 0 ' S ?
c 18 ; a YES.
1 Q o
z 19 HAVE YOU SEEN THE DOCUMENT E N T I T L E D , "PNEUMOCON 10 S I S , "
V
r.
20 I N 1 9 3 2 ?
U
21 A
W I T H I N THE LAST SEVERAL DAYS.
Ufi.
**.- Q
A L L R I G H T , S I R . AND T H A T ' S M A I N T A I N E D I N THE U . S . G .
23 ; L I B R A R Y ?
Q 24 ; A 11 2?
YES . HAVE YOU SEEN THE DOCUMENT E N T I T L E D , " P N E U M O C O N I O S I S , "
185
] 1939 ?
2 :A
W I T H I N THE LAST SEVERAL DAYS.
3Q
YOU WOULD AGREE WI TH ME, WI THOUT BELABORI NG THE P O I N T ,
4 MR. HERNAN, THAT THERE ARE A NUMBER OF ME DI CA L DOCUMENTS I t
5 THE U . S . G . L I B R A R Y WHI CH DI S C U S S THE HEALTH EFFECTS OF
6 A SB E S T OS , DOCUMENTS WHI CH GO BACK TO 1 9 3 0 ?
7 IA
YES .
8 1Q
AND THOSE DOCUMENTS GO ON UP , I N C L U D I N G DOCUMENTS I N
9 THE 1 9 6 0 ' S, CONCERNING DR. S E L I K O F F ' S STUDIES?
10 A
11 Q
YES . WEL L, MR. HERNAN, HAVE YOU ALSO SEEN T H I S I NTERNAL
12 DOCUMENT, T H I S I S AN I N T E R N A L DOCUMENT OF UNI T E D STATES
13 1 GYPSUM COMPANY, I S N ' T I T ? . (
14 ! A
YES.
15 ; Q
AND THAT DOCUMENT I S DATED FEBRUARY 1 1 , 1 9 5 5 ?
3
16 : a
YES.
I
17 ! Q
AND I T ' S E N T I T L E D , " E L I M I N A T I O N OF DUSTY C O N D I T I O N S " ?
a o
i
18 ! A
YES.
c
I
">
19 Q
AND THAT DOCUMENT SAYS UNDER, " AS B ES T OS EXPOSURE,
7
20 I OPERATI ONS I N V O L V I N G THE MANUAL HANDL I NG OF ASBESTOS I N ANY
e.
O
21 PLANT SHALL BE CONSI DERED AN AREA I N WHI CH EMPLOYEES SHALL BE
c
e
77 1 REQUI RED TO WEAR ADEQUATE RE S P I R A T OR Y E QU I P ME N T " ?
23 1 A 24 | Q
YES . AND THAT DOCUMENT REQUI RES EVEN PEOPLE SWEEPI NG I N THE
25 AREA OR WORKING I N THE AREA TO WEAR MASKS OR RESPI RATOR
( I
86
1 EQUIPMENT?
1A
YES.
3Q
AND THAT I S 1 9 5 4 ?
:
4A
YES.
'
5Q
WE L L , DO YOU S T I L L STAND BY YOUR ANSWER THAT I N THE
6 LATE 1 9 6 0 ' S THAT U . S . G . F I R S T DI SCOVERED THE DANGERS OF
:
7 ASBESTOS?
8A
FOR MY PERSONAL KNOWLEDGE, WHI CH I S WHAT YOU ASKED ME,
j
9 I HAVE CLASSED A S B E S T O S I S ALONG WI TH S I L I I C O S 1 S AS B A S I C A L L Y
10 BEI NG ONE AND THE SAME. I D I D NOT PLACE ANY S P E C I A L ONUS
j
!
11 ON ASBEST OS, A NY T HI NG D I F F E R E N T THAN EXPOSURE TO S I L I C A D U S T ^
12
Q
WE L L , S I R , I N 1 9 8 3 , J U N E , WHEN YOU ANSWERED T H I S I NTE RRO
13 GATORY, YOU WE RE N' T ANSWERI NG FOR JOHN HERMAN, WERE YOU?
,
14 YOU WERE V E R I F Y I N G THAT I NTERROGATORY FOR U N I T E D STATES GYPSUM
15 COMPANY, I S N ' T THAT CORRECT?
16 A
YES.
17
Q
YOU WERE THE MAN, ID O N ' T KNOW HOWYOU CHOOSE THE P EOP L E,
18 BUT YOU WERE THE MAN WHO WAS RE S P O N S I B L E FOR MAKI NG SURE
!
19 T H I S I NF ORMA T I ON WHI CH WAS G I V E N TO T H I S COURT WAS THE MOST !
20 ACCURATE I NF ORMA T I ON P O S S I B L E ?
21
A CORRECT.
22
Q AND ON THAT - - WOULD YOU S T I L L NOW,TODAY, STAND BT
23
YOUR ANSWER TO THAT I N F O R MA T I O N THAT U. S. GYPSUM COMPANY
24
D I D NOT KNOW THE D A N G E R S OF THE HEALTH E F F E C T S OF ASBESTOS
25
U N T I L THE LATE 1 9 6 0 ' S ?
187
1 A
TO THE BEST OF MY KNOWLEDGE, MANY PEOPLE WHO I ' M AWARE
OF I N T H I S P AR T I CUL AR AREA OF PLASTER PRODUCTS, FEEL THE
3 SAME WAY THAT I F E E L .
4Q
MR. HERNAN -
5
THE COURT: YOUWE R E N ' T ASKED HOW YOU F E L T .
ARE
;
6 YOU T E L L I N G US THAT YOU GAVE THAT ANSWER TO T H I S COURT UNDER
I
,
7 ; OATH WI THOUT EVEN LOOKI NG I N YOUR L I B R A R Y FOR WHAT I NFORMATI ON
I
,
8 | THERE
WAS?
'
!
j
9
THE WI T N E S S : I ' M C E R T A I N THAT THERE WAS A STUDY
j
10 MADE,
YOUR HONOR.
;
11 1
THE COURT:
WAS I T REPORTED TO YOU?
YOU'RE VERIFYING j
12 I THAT ANSWER UNDER OATH.
:
t
( 13 I I |
THE WI T NE S S : PERHAPS I D O N' T Q U I T E UNDERSTAND.
14 i
THE COURT: D I D YOU MAKE SURE THAT ANSWER WAS
15 ! ACCURATE?
16
THE WI TNE S S : TO THE BEST -
17
THE COURT: OR D I D N ' T YOU CARE?
18
THE WI T NE S S : YES, S I R , I CARED.
AND TO THE BEST
19 j OF MY A B I L I T Y .
20 Q
( B Y MR. S P E I G H T S : )
WE L L , MR. HERNAN,
I F I SERVED YOU
21 ; TODAY - - WEL L, LET ME JUST ASK. YOU THE Q UE ST I ON RI GHT OUT.
22 |
MR. HERNAN, FOR U . S . G . , WHEN D I D U . S . G . F I R S T BECOME
23 I AWARE OF THE HAZARDS OF ASBESTOS AND A S B E S T O S - C O N T A 1NI NG
24 PRODUCTS TO THE USERS OF THOSE PRODUCTS?
25 A
I T WOULD APPEAR THAT THOSE REPORTS THAT YOU u I S T E D THERE
1 WOULD BE THE STARTI NG P O I N T .
">
Q
A L L R I G H T . AND AT L EAST GO BACK TO 1 9 5 4 WHEN YOUR OWN
3 I NT E RNA L P O L I C Y WAS STATED WI T H REGARD TO HANDLI NG OF
4 ASBESTOS?
5A
YES .
6Q
NOW, MR. HERMAN, DO YOU RECALL MY A S K I NG YOU SUPPLEMENTAL
7 INTERROGATORIES IN THE LEXINGTON CASE?
8A
I T H I N K SO.
9Q
AND YOU ANSWEREDTHOSE SUPPLEMENTAL I NTERROGATORI ES I N
10 JANUARY OF T H I S YEAR?
11 A
12 Q
YES. YOU RECALL THAT?AND I GOT
AL I T T L E MORE S P E C I F I C WI TH
13 YOU ON THAT O CCA S I ON. I ASKED YOU, AND I ' L L PULL I T OUT I F
14 YOU WANT ME TO TO REFRESH YOUR MEMORY.
15 A
1 THINK I SHOULD.
lt> Q
A L L R I G H T , S I R . I ASKED YOU I N ONLY JANUARY - - THE
37 P L A I N T I F F ASKED YOU, " S T A T E THE FOLLOWI NG WI TH RESPECT TO
18 ASBESTOS 1S : THE DATE YOU F I R S T HEARD I T ALL EGED THAT THERE 19 I S A CAUSAL CONNECTI ON BETWEEN A S B E S T O S I S AND THE I N H A L A T I O N 20 OF A S B E S T O S . "
21
D I D I ASK THAT Q UE S T I ON THAT DAY WI TH SOME FURTHER
22 REQUESTS FOR I NF ORMA T I ON?
23 A
YES.
24 Q
A L L R I G H T , S I R . SO THESE ANSWERS WERE BACK I N J UNE,
25 AND NOW I N J ANUARY, TWO OR THREE MONTHS AGO, YOU HAVE ANSWERED
, (
;
l 6
; a
:
5
W
t
189
1 iANOTHER QUESTI ON CONCERNI NG WHEN YOU KNEW ABOUT S P E C I F I C A L L Y j
2
I
| THE DANGERS OF A S B E S T O S 1 S .
I S N ' T THAT CORRECT?
' j
|
i
3A
YES .
1 |
4 !Q
READ YOUR ANSWER TO THAT , P L E A S E , MR. HERNAN.
5 ;A
"ANSWER A. 1 9 7 5 . L I T I G A T I O N F I L E D AGAI NST T H I S
11 [|
6 D E F E N D A N T . VARI OUS I N D I V I D U A L S MAY HAVE READ THE MA T E R I A L
7
I ! I N THE POPULAR PRESS
I N THE LATE
1960' S."
i ;
8 ;Q
A L L R I G H T , S I R . NOW, WOULD YOU ALSO BE W I L L I N G TO
;
9 ' ACKNOWLEDGE NOW, MR. HERNAN, THAT THE ANSWER YOU GAVE I N
i
t
10 i JANUARY I S NOT CORRECT, I N L I G H T OF THE I NT ERNAL POL I CY OF
j
i
11 1 | U . S . GYPSUM COMPANY I N 1 9 5 4 ?
:
i
12 A
I T WAS MY I M P R E S S I O N THAT THE 1 9 5 4 PERI OD COVERED
j
j NUI S A NCE DUST COMPARABLE TO S I L I C O S I S . T H A T ' S MY PERSONAL,
14B jI ! HONEST FEELI NG.
15 ' Q
WELL, S I R , WHAT' S THE DOCUMENT SAY? DOESN' T THE
1i> i DOCUMENT SAY ASBESTOS EXPOSURE?
17
A
i
is Q
YES. ALL RIGHT, SIR.
MY Q UE S T I ON I S , TODAY, A P R I L WHATEVER
19
| IT j
IS,
1 9 8 4 , WOULD YOU S T I L L RESPOND TO T H I S SAME I NT E RROGA -
20 ! TORY THAT I T WAS 1 9 7 5 BEFORE YOU HEARD I T ALLEGED THAT
21 i ASBESTOS CAUSES ASBESTOS1 S?
; A
BASED ON YOUR P R E S E N T A T I O N T HE RE , 1 WOULD SAY 1 9 5 4 .
23 1 ; q
ALL RIGHT,
j
24 M O N T H S A GO , MR.
S IR . WELL,
ALSO ASKED YOU I N JANUARY, TWO
HERNAN, TO STATE THE FOLLOWING WITH RESPECT
25 TO LUNG CANCER: " T H E DATE YOU F I R S T HEARD I T ALLEGED THAT
190
] THERE i s a c a u s a l c o n n e c t i o n b e t w e e n l u n g c a n c e r a n d t h e
- I;i I N H A L A T I O N o f a s b e s t o s , t h e i d e n t i t y o f t h e p e r s o n or d o c u -
j.
! m e n t t h a t wa s t h e s o u r c e o f s u c h A L L E G A T I O N . " r e s p o n s e :
!
; "LATE 1 9 7 0 'S ."
j
WAS THAT YOUR ANSWER I N JANUARY I N T H I S COURT?
6 ;A
THAT WAS MY ANSWER OR T H I S I S WHAT I SI GNED TO AT THAT
i TIME.
8 !Q
THAT WAS THE P O S I T I O N OF U N I T E D STATES GYPSUM COMPANY
9 ; INJANUARY?
| i
1j,
10 ; A
YES.
,
H
]
I Q
NOW, WOULD YOU S T I L L STAND BY THAT P O S I T I O N TODAY, THAT `
12 f U N I T E D STATES GYPSUM D I D N ' T HEAR I T ALL EGED THAT ASBESTOS
13 j CAUSED LUNG CANCER U N T I L 1 9 7 9 ?
14 ; A
I HEARD DR. S EL 1 K OFF SPEAK T H I S PAST WEEK, WHO I B E L I E V E
15 ' I S THE RECOGNI ZED EXPERT I N T H I S P AR T I CUL AR AREA.
16 ;
!
MR. S P E I G H T S : YOUR HONOR, I WOULD MOVE TO S T RI K E
17 I F HE I S T RY I NG TO C I T E -
18 i
THE COURT: YES. S T R I K E T HAT.
j
19 ! q
i
MY QUE ST I ON I S S I M P L Y T H I S , MR. HERNAN: WOULD YOU STAND
20 i , BY YOUR ANSWER TODAY AND ANSWER I T THE SAME WAY I F I ASKED
T _ S
; YOU THE SAME Q U E S T I O N , THAT I T WAS NOT U N T I L THE LATE 1 9 7 0 TS
22 ; THAT U. S. GYPSUM HEARD I T A L L E G E D , NOT PROVEN, BUT A L L E G E D ,
23 ; THAT ASBESTOS CAUSES LUNG CANCER?
24 | A
I
25 Q
I T WOULD BE E A R L I E R THAN T H A T . A L L R I G H T , S I R . I ASKED YOU T H I S , MR. HERNAN, ON J ANUARY,
191
1 , \ 9 8 9 : " S T / T E THE FOLLOWI NG WI T H RESPECT TO MESOTHELI OMA: 2 THE DATE YOU F I R S T HEARD I T ALL EGED THAT THERE I S A CAUSAL
3 ; CONNECTI ON BETWEEN MESOTHELI OMA AND THE I N H A L A T I O N OF
4 , ASBESTOS; THE I D E N T I T Y OF THE PERSON A ND/ OR DOCUMENT THAT
5 WAS THE SOURCE OF SUCH A L L E G A T I O N ; THE I D E N T I T Y OF THE PERSON
6 WHO RECEI VED SUCH I N F O R M A T I O N ; AND THE I D E N T I T Y OF A L L
7 DOCUMENTS GENERATED AS A RESULT OF THE R E C E I P T OF SUCH
8 ; INFORMAI ION. "
S' '
ANSWER: " L A T E 1 9 7 0 ' S OR AROUND 1 9 8 0 . " HAVE I READ
10 THAT CORRECTLY? I T S THE LAST OF THAT PAGE AND THE TOP OF 11 THE NEXT ONE.
12 , A
YES
YOU HAVE READ I T P ROP E RL Y .
13 :Q
I ASK YOU, MR. HERNAN, I F YOU ARE NOW T E L L I N G THE COURT
14 ' AND THE JURY TODAY , A P R I L , 1 9 8 9 , THAT THAT I S S T I L L U. S.
15 GYPSUM' S ANSWER, THAT I T NEVER HEARD I T ALLEGED THAT ASBESTOS
5
16 CAUSES MESOTHELI OMA U N T I L THE LATE 19 7 0 * S OR 1 9 8 0 ?
*
17 A
MY OWN PERSONAL KNOWLEDGE WAS AT ' ABOUT T H I S P ART I CUL AR
a
1
o
-
^
18 ,P ERI ODFOR MESOTHELI OMA.
i
19 Q
Y ES , S I R . BUT YOU NOW KNOW THAT THAT ANSWER I S NOT
T
;
w
!
20 CORRECT, DON' T YOU?
<
1 5
5
21 A
A L L I HEARD I S THE T E S T I MON Y OFFERED I N T H I S COURT ON
< o
*
22 T H A T .
23 Q
MR. HERNAN, YOU D I D N ' T V E R I F Y SOME ANSWERS TO I NTERROGA-
24 T O R I E S I N THE G R E E N V I L L E CASE, A S P E C I A L COURT I NTERROGATORY,
2? ; 1N FEBRUARY OF T H I S YEAR, A MONTH AFTER THAT?
192
1 :A
YES.
|Q
AND YOU D I D N ' T SU` PLY US BY COURT ORDER I N THE GRE ENVI L L E
1
II
3 j CASE WI TH A L L OF THESE DOCUMENTS I ' M NOW G I V I N G YOU TO LOOK
4 ! AT?
I
I
5 !A
I D I D NOT SEE THE DOCUMENTS U N T I L T H I S PAST WEEK.
6;
THE COURT: COULD YOU ANSWER THE QUESTI ON? YOU
7 D I D NOT SUPPLY THEM? NOBODY ASKED YOU WHEN YOU F I R S T SAW
8 THEM. YOU WERE ASKE.D I F YOU S U P P L I E D THEM.
9I |
10 j i
11 I i
12 '
THE WI TNESS: OH, YES. THE COURT: YOU D I D NOT, I N THE G R E E N V I L L E CASE? THE WI T N E S S : Y E S , WE FURNI SHED THEM. THE COURT: Y E S , YOU D I D NOT? Y ES , WE HAVE NO
13 | BANANAS.
14 :
THE WI T N E S S : WE F U RN I S HE D THE DOCUMENTS, YOUR
15 j HONOR.
16 Q
CBY MR. S P E I G H T S : } NOW, NOT ONLY D I D YOU FURNI SH THE
17 j DOCUMENTS, BUT I N FEBRUARY YOU L I S T E D THOSE DOCUMENTS FOR THE
18 F I R S T T I M E BY S P E C I A L COURT ORDER, YOU L I S T E D THOSE DOCUMENTS
19 AND V E R I F I E D THE L I S T , D I D N ' T YOU?
20 ' A
YES.
21 j Q
YOU D I D N ' T SEE THEDOCUMENTS
r>
1 DOCUMENTS?
BUT YOU V E R I F I E D
THE
23 A
YES.
24 Q
SO YOU' RE NOTT E L L I N G US NOW THAT I T WA S N' T U N T I L YOU
25 A R R I V E D I N THE COURTROOM I N C O L U M B I A , SOUTH C A R O L I N A , T H I S
FORM *Fl
193
1
! f
WEEK,
I S THE F I R S T T I M E '"OU EVER LEARNED ABOUT THAT, ARE YOU? :
n (1j A
THAT 1 LEARNED ABOUT WHAT?
3Q
TO MY UNDERSTANDI NG, YOU T E S T I F I E D A MOMENT AGO,
4 i MR. HERMAN, THAT I T WAS NOT U N T I 1 T H I S WEEK THAT YOU BECAME
5 I AWARE OF THOSE DOCUMENTS, WHEN YOU A R R I V E D I N COURT I N !
i 6 SOUTH CAROLI NA.
7A
W I T H I N JUST A VEF.Y SHORT PERI OD OF T I M E BEFORE T HA T .
,
i
8Q
FEBRUARY 15 WHEN YOU HAD TO V E R I F Y THE ANSWER TO
1
9 I NTERROGATORY TO JUDGE W I L K I N S JP I N G R E E N V I L L E , YOU L I S T E D |
10 A L L OF THOSE DOCUMENTS, D I D N ' T YOU?
11 A
YES.
12 Q
YOU D I D N ' T SUPPLEMENT YOUR ANSWERS DOWN HERE I N
; t
13 L EX I NGT ON AND T E L L THE COURT DOWN I N L EX I NGT ON THAT YOUR
14 ANSWERS WERE WRONG, D I D YOU?
IS A
NO.
;
16 i Q
A L L R I G H T . 1 ASK YOU WHETHER I N THE LEXI NGTON
w
l o
17 I N T E R R O G A T O R I E S , MR. HERNAN, I ALSO D I D N ' T ASK YOU WHETHER
^cN 18 !i1i OR NOT U. S. GYPSUM HAD S U P P L I E D ANY WARNI NGS ON I T S PRODUCTS.
i z
19 | YOU RECALL THAT QUE S T I ON?
i
l
C
->(!
*rV
A
YES.
a>-
t
21 ! Q
AND DO YOUR RECALL YOUR ANSWERI NG ME THAT EXCEPT FO?
c
22 j J O I N T COMPOUNDS I N 1 9 7 2 THAT U. S. GYPSUM D I D N ' T SUPPLY ANY
23 i WARNI NGS ON I T S PRODUCTS?
24 A
YES.
2S Q
NOW, J S N ' T I T CORRECT THAT U. S. GYPSUM ALSO MADE A
194
} PRODUCT CALLED SPRAYED- ON?
,
A
YES, SIR.
;
3Q
AND SPRAYED- ON WAS A F I R E P R O O F I N G AND ACOUSTI CAL PRODUCT, .
3 WASN'T IT?
5A
I T WAS MY KNOWLEDGE THAT I T WAS A F I RE P ROOF I NG PLASTER
6 MADE UNDER A FORMULATI ON FURNI SHED BY THE SPRAY- ON CORPORATI ON.
7Q
WEL L, YOU MADE THE SPRAYED- ON PRODUCT?
i
8A
YES.
|
j
|
9 Q
AND I T WAS A SPRAY
A P P L I E D PRODUCT?
!
1
10 A
YES.
:
11 ' Q
AUDICOTE IS A SPRAY A P P L I E D PRODUCT?
;
i
i
12 : A
THEY ARE TWO E N T I R E L Y D I F F E R E N T PRODUCTS, S I R .
^
13 q
A L L R I G H T , S I R . BUT THEY ARE BOTH SPRAY A P P L I E D PRODUCTS,
14 YOU SPRAY THEM UP?
15 A
ONE I N DRY FORM AND ONE I N WET FORM.
; 16 Q A L L R I G H T , S I R . ARE YOU F A M I L I A R WI TH THE SWEETS
*
IT
CATALOGUE?
c
'
18 1 a
I HAVE HEARD OF THE NAME. I ' M KNOWLEDGEABLE I N THEM.
j
r>
e
_
19 ; Q
YOU ARE KNOWLEDGEABLE I N THEM.
,
V
\
20 ;
MR. BROWN: O B J E C T I O N , YOUR HONOR. T H I S L I N E OF
5
21
Q UE S T I O NI NG HAS NOTHI NG TO DO WI T H THE PRODUCT I N T H I S C - S E .
2i
22
THE COURT: I T HAS TO DO WI TH THE R E L I A B I L I T Y OF
23 ! T H I S WI T NE S S . OVERRULED.
'
1
24 ; Q
J ASK YOU I F T H I S I S NOT AN A DVERT I SEMENT I N THE SWEETS j
25 I CATALOGUE FOR S P R A Y E D - O N , THE PRODUCT YOU ALSO MANUFACTURED
195
I 111 AT THE T I ME YOU WERE MANUFACTURI NG AUD1 C0 TE?
; 1A
t
3 |Q
THI S IS A SPRAYED-ON BROCHURE. A L L R I G H T , S I R . AND D O E S N ' T THAT BROCHURE REFLECT
4 | SPRAYED- ON A C O U S T I C A L TREATMENT AS ONE OF THE PURPOSES OF
5 SPRAYED-ON SPRAY A P P L I E D PRODUCT?
6A
T H I S I S THE SPRAYED- ON FORMUL A T I ON. I WCULD HAVE NO
i 7 i! KNOWLEDGE OF THE PERFORMANCE OF T H E I R PRODUCT.
8Q
T H I S I S A PRODUCT THAT YOU MADE AND A PRODUCT THAT HAS
9 I BEEN A DV E R T I S E D BOTH FOR F I R E P R O O F I N G AND FOR A COUS T I CA L 1
io : TREATMENT, I S N 'T IT? i
ii ! A
T H I S I S WHAT T H I S DOCUMENT S T A T E S .
12 j Q
ALL R I G H T , S I R . AND STARTI NG IN THE LATE 1 9 6 0 ' S UNI TED
13 STATES GYPSUM COMPANY REQUI RED THAT PRODUCT TO HAVE WARNI NGS
14 ON I T ABOUT ASBESTOS?
15 A
YES.
5
16 Q
SO
YOUR ANSWER TO THE I NTERROGATORY I N T H I S CASE THAT
*
17 YOU D I D N ' T SUPPLY WARNI NGS ON PRODUCTS I S NOT CORRECT, I S I T ?
K
c
as
is A
I T H I N K THE I N I T I A L ANSWERS WERE BASED ON THE AUDI COTE
oC
o
H
19 A C O U S T I C A L PLASTER AND THE S PRAYED- ON A C O U S T I C A L - - THE
2
-
1
20 SPRAYED- ON A C O U S T I C A L T R E A T M E N T , A S STATED HERE, ARE TWO
s.
1
6
j ENTIRELY DIFFERENT PRODUCTS.
c
zt
22 i Q
THE ANSWER WAS A C O U S T I C A L PRODUCTS, WASN' T I T , THAT YOU
I
23 GAVE US I N THE L E X I NG T O N CASE?
24 A
YES.
'
.
25 Q
A L L R I G H T , S I R . AND THAT DOCUMENT REFLECTS T H A T ' S AN
196
1 ACOUSTICAL PRODUCT, DOESN'T I T ?
1A
THAT I S WHAT T H I S DOCUMENT S T A T E S .
3
MR. BROWN: YOUR HONOR P L E A S E , A G A I N I OBJECT - -
4
THE COURT: A G A I N , I OVERRULE YOU.
5Q
SO I N THE LATE 1 9 6 0 ' S , I N ' 6 8 , BEFORE 1RMO HI GH SCHOOL
:
1
6 PURCHASED ITS ' 6 8 SUPPLY, BEFORE I T PURCHASED ITS ' 7 2 SUPPLY |
7 AND BEFORE I T PURCHASED I T S ' 7 9 S U P P L Y , YOU WERE S E L L I NG
|
8 ANOTHER ACOUSTI CAL TREATMENT PRODUCT WI TH WARNINGS ABOUT
!
9 ASBESTOS ON I T ? I S N ' T THAT CORRECT?
j
10 A
I N THE WAY THAT YOU HAVE PHRASED I T .
;
11 Q
WE L L , MR. HERNAN, NOT ONLY T H A T , YOU TOOK THE ASBESTOS
j
1
12 OUT OF THAT PRODUCT I N 1 9 7 0 , D I D N ' T YOU?
|
j
13 A
THE SPRAYED- ON F ORMU L A T I ON WAS CHANGED BY THAT PARTI CUL AR
14 CORPORATI ON.
15
THE COURT: D I D YOU TAKE THE ASBESTOS OU'1' , YES OR
i
16 NO?
:
17
THE WI TNESS: YES. YES.
;
i !
18
THE COURT: DON' T EVADE EVERY QUESTI ON. JUST WASTING
19 THE
COURT ' S T I M E . ANSWER THEM.
j
20 Q
( B Y MR. S P E I G H T S : ) W E L L , S I R , I N 1 5 2 0 , WALLS AND C E I L I N G S
21 M A G A Z I N E , DOES I T - - I N 1 9 7 0 , A R E N ' T YOU A D V E R T I S I N G T H I S
;
22 ACOUSTI CAL PRODUCT, T H I S A SB E S T OS - F REE PRODUCT?
23 A
THAT WAS DONE BY S PRAY E D- ON CORPORATI ON, NOT THE U. S.
24 GYPSUM COMPANY.
25 Q
A L L RI GHT, S I R . THE COMPANY THAT WAS S E L L I N G YOUR
,
198
]
ENTITLED
D A V I D DONALD S M I T H VERSUS U N I T E D STATES GYPSUM
2 COMPANY, ET AL,, ?
3A
4
Q
YES. I ASK YOU I F ON THAT O C C A S I O N , AUGUST 2 5 , 1 9 8 1 , A YEAR
5 AND A HALF BEFORE YOU GAVE T H I S COURT THAT ANSWER, T H I S
6 QUE ST I ON WAS ASKED AND YOU V E R I F I E D YOUR ANSWER AS FOLLOWS:
:
7
' ' I F YOU KNOW OF ANY T E S T , S T U D I E S , RESEARCH OR E X P E R I
8 MENTS CONCERNI NG THE EFFECTS OF THE I N H A L A T I O N OF ASBESTOS
1
9 F I B E R S CONDUCTED AT ANY T I M E SI NCE 1 90 0 BY ANY MEMBER OF
10 THE ASBESTOS PRODUCTS I N D U S T R Y , M I N E R S , M I L L E R S , MANUFACTURERS,
11 S E L L E R S , ET CETERA, OR BY ANY GROUP OR O R GA N I Z A T I ON OF OR
,
12 RELATED TO THAT I N D U S T R Y , G I V E THE T I T L E S , DATES AND
!
13 P A R T I C I P A T I N G COMPANI ES OR O R G A N I Z A T I O N S AND RESPONSI BLE
14 I N D I V I D U A L S . "
1
15
ANSWER: " T H I S I NTERROGATORY I S OBJECTED TO ON THE
'
16 GROUNDS THAT I T I S OVERLY BROAD AND BURDENSOME I N THAT I T
17 COVERS A T I M E PERI OD OF 81 YEARS.
-
I
18
"HOWEVER, SUBJECT TO THE O B J E C T I O N , T H I S DEFENDANT I S
;
I
19 AWARE OF A STUDY CONDUCTED I N THE LATE 1 9 3 0 ' S CONCERNING
,
i
20 THE HEALTH EFFECTS OF I N H A L A T I O N OF ASBESTOS F I B E R S BY
'
21 DR. LEROY GARDNER OF SARANAC L A K E . "
.
i
22
WAS THAT YOUR ANSWER UP I N MI NNESOTA A YEAR AND A HALF
23 BEFORE T H I S ANSWER?
;
24 A
YES.
25
MR. S P E I G H T S : THANK YOU, S I R . T H A T ' S A L L I HAVE.
99
1
REDIRECT EXAMINATION
;
2 3Y MR. BROWN:
1
35
MR. HERNAN, L E T ' S GET BACK TO THE SUBJECT WHICH YOU
!
4 WERE CALLED TO T A L K A B O UT , WHI CH I S THE 17TH FLOOR OF U. S.
5 GYPSUM.
j
i
6
MR. SPEI GHTS SHOWED YOU SOMETHI NG OUT OF A REPORT I N
,
7 1 9 7 3 ABOUT SOME R E P A I RS THAT WERE DONE TO THE 17TH FLOOR.
;
8 NOW, THE F I R S T PARAGRAPH T A L K S ABOUT O I L SPOTS AND I T SAYS,
j
9 CUT OUT SECTI ONS OF C E I L I N G C O N T A I N I N G O I L S P O T S . " YOU HAPPEN
10 TO RECALL HOW B I G AN O I L SPOT THERE WAS I N THAT 17TH FLOOR
j
11 AREA?
|
12 A
NO, I DO NOT KNOW.
;
13 Q
DO YOU RECALL ROUGHLY HOW B I G THE E N T I R E AREA WAS OR
14 I S ON THE 17TH FLOOR OF THE U. S. GYPSUM B U I L D I N G THAT I S
15 COVERED WI TH A UDI CO T E ?
HOW MANY D I F F E R E N T ROOMS ARE THERE,
16 FOR EXAMPLE?
.
17 A
WI THOUT LOOKI NG AT THE P R I N T , I WOULD E ST I MATE THAT
| 18 THERE ARE PROBABLY I N THE NEI GHBORHOOD OF 25 O F F I C E S , AT L EAST
19 FOUR LARGE OPEN A RE A S . LET ME T H I N K , COUNT I N MY HEAD HERE. | I
20 THERE MUST BE I N THE NEI GHBORHOOD OF 2 0 , 0 0 0 SQUARE F EET.
21 THE O F F I C E - - THE TOTAL AREA WOULD BE PROBABLY 20 T I ME S 30
22 T I M E S THE S I Z E OF T H I S COURTROOM, FOR AN A P P RO X I MA T I ON OF
23 P H Y S I C A L S I Z E .
24 Q
DO YOU HAVE ANY I N F O R MA T I O N WI T H RESPECT TO GOUGES AND
|
25 SCRATCHES WHI CH COULD BE R E P A I R E D WI TH A SMALL SPATULA AND
,
2 00
1 SMALL P A I N T B R U S H , AS TO ABOUT HOW MANY OF THOSE THERE WERE
!
j
THAT WERE RE P AI RE D I N 1 9 7 2 ?
'
3 iA
I DON' T HAVE ANY PERSONAL KNOWLEDGE OF THA T.
'
4 !Q
A L L R I G H T . NOW, YOU WERE ASKED BY MR. SPEI GHTS WHETHER
5 ' THERE WERE OTHER PLACES THAT YOU COULD HAVE FOUND AUDI COTE
'
I 6 ON THE C E I L I N G S , AND YOU S A I D YES .
7 1A
yes.
:
i
8 'Q
AT THE T I M E WHEN T H I S E XP E RI ME NT WAS BEI NG DONE AT
:
9 | U. S. GYPSUM, WAS THERE A CASE PENDI NG I N NEW JERSEY I N V O L V I N G
1
10 i! THE CI NNAM1NSON SCHOOL D I S T R I C T ?
!
i!
11 : A
YES.
12 Q
DO YOU KNOW WHY I T WAS THAT THE 17TH FLOOR C E I L I N G
13 AT U. S. GYPSUM WAS SELECTED FOR THE EXPERI MENT RATHER THAN
14 GOI NG SOMEWHERE ELSE AND F I N D I N G SOME OTHER MA T E R I A L ?
15 A
YES.
;
16 Q
WHY WAS I T ?
* eo
17 A
I T WAS BECAUSE I T WAS THE - - DONE AT THE SAME PERI OD
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18 OF T I M E AND HAD THE SAME PRODUCT F ORMUL A TI ON.
z
19 Q
A L L R I G H T . ONCE MORE, I S I T YOUR O P I N I O N THAT THE
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20 ' M A T E R I A L I N THE 1 7TH FLOOR C E I L I N G AT U. S. GYPSUM I S AND WAS
V
, AUDICOTE?
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22 A
YES.
23 :
MR. BROWN: T H A T ' S A L L I HA V E , YOUR HONOR.
24 ; i
25 ! BY MR. S P E I G H T S :
RECROSS EXAMI NATI ON
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2 Ui
1Q
MR. HERNAN, MY UNDERSTANDING I S THE 17TH FLOOR I S JUST
-I THE CORRIDOR AND ONE ROOM THAT HAS THE AUD1COTE ON I T , I S N ' T iI
3 ; THAT CORRECT?
*
! A
WOULD YOU RESTATE THAT?
iQ
I S N ' T THE CORRIDOR THAT HAS THE AUDI COTE ON I T I N THE
6 1 7TH FLOOR?
7 ,A
THAT I S ONE OF THE AREAS ON THE 17TH FLOOR.
i, Q AND THEN THE CAFETERI A ALSO HAS I T ON I T?
9 . A THE CAFETERI A AND THE LOBBY OF THE B U I L D I N G ,
10 i Q ALLRI GHT, S I R . AND I ASK YOU ALSO,WHEN YOU TOOK THI S
I I | SAMPLE, THAT YOU JUST TOOK I T I N A RANDOM PLACE ON THAT 17TH
12 , FLOOR, D I D N ' T YOU? I S N ' T THAT WHAT YOU T E S T I F I E D ?
13 i A
I TOOK I T , I T H I N K I S A I D , ADJACENT TO THE TEST AREA.
14 Q
ALL RI GHT. BUT YOU TOOK I T - - YOU SELECTED THE TEST
IS AREA OR YOU SELECTED I T JUST ON A RANDOM BASI S ON THAT
1<- 1 7 TH FLOOR?
17 A
I DI D SAMPLE I T OR TEST I T MYSELF TO ASSURE MYSELF THAT
IS
I T HAD THE PHYSI CAL PROPERTI ES. 1
t
19 ; Q
WELL, AUDI COTE HAS 7 PERCENT ASBESTOS IN I T , DOESN' T I T ,
20 1 EXCESS OF 7 PERCENT?
21
A
YES.
22
MR. SPEI GHTS: 1 WOULD MOVE FORMALLY TO PUT
23 1707 INTO EVI DENCE, YOUR HONOR.
24 ii 2S i
MR. BROWN: THE COURT:
NO OBJ ECTI ON. RECEIVED.
202
),
MR. S P E I G H T S : T H A T ' S A L L 1 HAVE.
T !
REDIRECT EXAMINATION CONTINUED
t
3 . BY MR. Br OWN :
i
4 :Q
MR. HERNAN, WHERE WAS THE SLAB CUT OUT OF THE 17TH
5 FLOOR C E I L I N G ? i
6 ;A
I T WAS TAKEN W I T H I N ROUGHLY 7 TO 10 FEET FROM THE
I
1 ! T E S T I N G S I T E THAT WE WORKED ON HERE.
8Q
I S N ' T I T A FACT THAT THE EXPERI MENT WAS DONE I N A
9 i LARGE CORRI DOR AND RI GHT AROUND THE CORNER FROM THE CORRI DOR i
10 ! THERE WAS AN E X E CU T I V E WASHROOM?
11 ! A
i
YES.
12 ; Q
i!
AND WASN' T THE SLAB CUT OUT OF THE C E I L I N G I N THE
13 E X E C U T I V E WASHROOM?
14 | A
YES.
15 Q
WAS A L L THE M A T E R I A L I N THAT WHOLE A R E A , I NCL UDI NG THE
16 . WAShROOM, A L L PART OF THE SAME C E I L I N G ?
17 A
IS
t
19 '
YES.
MR. BROWN: T H A T ' S A L L . THANK YOU. MR. S P E I G H T S : NOT HI NG FURTHER.
20 '
MR. BROWN: YOU MAY STEP DOWN, MR. HERMAN.
21
23
1 C E R T I F Y THAT THE FOREGOI NG I S A CORRECT T RA NS CRI P T FROM
24
THE RECORD OF PROCEEDI NGS I N THE A B O V E - E N T I T L E D MATTER.
25
T " k /.
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I JLR.^ O F F I C I A L ,,R E P O RJE R_
DATE