Document jy5ybodMydYz88aop698r81Gk

FILE NAME: Union Carbide (UC) DATE: 1989 Mar 10 DOC#: UC064 DOCUMENT DESCRIPTION: Legal - Deposition of Dernehl Vol 1 with Cover Letter S T A N L E Y R. W A T S O N L IC E N SE D IN T E X A S A N D O K LAH O M A D O U G L A S A. H I N C H C L I F F L IC E N SE D IN T E X A S A N D K A N SA S Watso n & Hin c h c l if f ATTORNEYS AT LAW A P A R T N E R SH IP IN CLU D IN G A P R O F E SSIO N A L C O R PO R A TIO N 307 MAIN STREET OUANAH,TEXAS 79252 T E L E P H O N E : (817) 663-6 101 FAX: (817) 6 6 3 - 6 1 0 2 November 10, 1992 Dr. Barry I. Castleman 1722 Linden Avenue Baltimore, Maryland 21217 R e Union Carbide CornoratTrr~~% Deposition of ~CarT Derneh1 Arthur Frehse Case Dear Dr. Castleman: Enclosed is a copy of the deposition of Dr. Dernehl, taken in the Arthur Frehse case in 1989. In speaking with Mr. Henderson, and other attorneys, it is my understanding, that this deposition of Dr. Dernehl, is a fairly good representation of what Union Carbide knew of the hazards of asbestos, when Dr. Dernehl went to work there. The deposition was taken in two parts, and it is clear to me that the second part of the deposition is coached by the attorneys for Carbide. Mills and I have not decided actually whether one of us will come to the deposition or not. I will be talking to you in advance of the deposition further. Yours very truly, ~/ * * * Stanley R. Watson S R W :aew cc: Mr. B. Mills Latham Attorney at Law 1660 Texas Commerce Plaza Corpus Christi, Texas 78470 STATE OP MINNESOTA DISTRICT COURT S&3/'<3?<3 tiCU-JL COUNTY OF CARLTON SIXTH JUDICIAL DISTRICT 7 PERSONAL INJURY/CAREY Arthur A. Frehse, and Helen J. Frehse, husband and wife# Plaintiffs, vs, Anchor Packing Company, et al., Defendants. VOLUME I Deposition of CARL U. DERNEHL, M.D., taken pursuant to Notice of Taking Deposition, and taken before Kirby A. Kennedy, a Notary Public in and for the County of Hennepin, State of Minnesota, on the 10th day of March 1989, at the Holiday Inn, University Plaza a Trade Center, 333 Sherman Parkway, Springfield, Missouri, commencing at approximately 9:15 o'clock a.m. . . . c Spi'.:.' ` KIRBY A. KENNEDY &_ASSOCIA T E | J g ^ : ^ | ^ ^ . (612) 9 2 2 ^ 9 5 5 ^ ^ * 1 APPEARANCES : 2 , MICHAEL S. POLK, ESQUIRE, of the Law Firm of 3 HERTOGS, FLUEGEL, SIEBEN, POLK, JONES & LaVERDIERE, 999 Westview Drive, Hastings, Minnesota 55033, appeared for and 4 on behalf of Plaintiff. 5 ROBERT D. BROWNSON, ESQUIRE, of the Law Firm of STICH, ANGELL, KREIDLER & MUTH, Suite 120, The Crossings, 6 250 Second Avenue South, Minneapolis, Minnesota 55401, appeared for and on behalf of Defendant Conwed Corporation. 7 BRUCE JONES, ESQUIRE, of the Law Firm of 8 FAEGRE & BENSON, 2200 Norwest Center, 90 South Seventh Street, Minneapolis, Minnesota 55402-39001, appeared for 9 and on behalf of Defendants Armstrong World Industries (Delaware), Inc., GAP Corporation, Keene Corporation, 10 National Gypsum Company, Owens-Corning Fiberglas Corporation, Owens-Illinois, Inc., Turner & Newall PLC, 11 Union Carbide Corporation and United States Gypsum Company. 12 WILLIAM D. HARVARD, ESQUIRE, Of the Law Firm Of BLASINGAME, BURCH, GARRARD & BRYANT, PC, 440 College 13 Avenue North, P.O. Box 832, Athens, Georgia 30603, appeared for and on behalf of Defendant Union Carbide Corporation 14 and members of CCR. 15 ANTHONY J. LAURA, ESQUIRE, of the Law Firm of KELLEY, DRYE & WARREN, 175 South Street, Morristown, New 16 Jersey 07960, appeared for and on behalf of Defendant Union Carbide Corporation. 17 18 JOSEPH GOLDBERG, ESQUIRE, of the Law Firm of MILLER & NEARY, Suite 606, Park National Bank Building, 19 5353 Wayzata Boulevard, Minneapolis, Minnesota 55416, appeared for and on behalf of Defendant A. W. Chesterton 20 Company. 21 ROBERT E. DIEHL, ESQUIRE, of the Law Firm of MEAGHER,-GEER, MARKHAM, ANDERSON, ADAMSON, FLASKAMP & 22 BRENNAN, 4200-Multirfoods Tower, 33 South South Sixth Street; Minneapolis, Minnesota 55402, appeared for and on 23 behalf of Defendant A.H. Bennett Company. 24 25 KIRBY A." KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES Ji.-' m 2 927-1959 ' `` 's. 1 GARY B. BISHOP, ESQUIRE, of the Law Firm of MANN, WALTER, BURKART, WEATHERS & WALTER, 300 John Q. 2 Hammons Parkway, Suite 600, Springfield, Missouri 65806, appeared for and on behalf of Defendant W. R. Grace & 3 Company. 4 INDEX: 5 Cross-Examination by Mr. Brownson 6 Cross-Examination by Mr.Polk 7 Recross-Examination by Mr. Brownson 8 Cross-Examination by Mr. Goldberg Page 5 Page 116 Page 161 Page 164 9 10 Dernehl Deposition Exhibits 1 through 44 marked Page 4 11 Dernehl Deposition Exhibit 45 marked 12 Dernehl Deposition Exhibit 46 marked -Page 55 Page 147 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 * KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES (.612) .922-H1*.*^**5v.5W*-;VTU (At this time DERNEHL Deposition Exhibits . v. 1 through 44 were marked for identification by ' the Court Reporter.) HR. JONES: Dr. Dernehl has informed usthat he is a diabetic and for that reason is occasionally subject to hypoglycemia. He has also asked us to watch him carefully because he has difficulty because of lack of concentration. He will take the measures that he can to correct it. It's also important for that reason that we break for lunch right at 11:55 or noon. - ..... MR. BROWNSON: Why don't you make sure that we have a watch here. , MR. JONES: I just wanted to let you know. MR. BROWNSON: We will do anything to accommodate. (At this time a discussion was held off the record.) . CARL U. DERNEHL, M.D., the Witness in the above-entitled matter after having been first duly *4 . . . sworn deposes and says as follows: ' /V. ' ' . KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES (612) 922-1955 V . 4 .^ . . ` *. . JKEi;''" 1 CROSS-EXAMINATION 2 3 BY MR. BROWNSOM: 4 Q. Dr. Dernehl, my name is Bob Brownson. I 5 introduced myself to you earlier. I represent a company 6 called Conwed Corporation, which is a Defendant in a 7 lawsuit up in Minnesota brought by a James Manisto against 8 many Defendants. Do you understand generally that we are 9 here on that case? Have you been informed of that fact? 10 A. I have been informed that there is a lawsuit 11 which involves Union Carbide and that's about it. * 12 Q. We are here today to ask you some questions 13 concerning Union Carbide matters and I am going to start 14 out the questioning and others, I am sure, will also 15 question you. Before we start I would like to tell you a 16 couple of things. The first is if my questions are not 17 clear to you or anyone's questions are not clear to you or 18 you don't understand them, would you please tell us that 19 before you answer the question? 20 A. Yes. ...... 21 Q. And that way we willhave a record which 22 reflects questions that you understood. Okay? . 23 A. Right. *4 24 Q. And, secondly,please speak upaudibly and 25 don't shake your head or shrug your holders or say huh-uh 5 : ass*. 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 a 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 or these sorts of things because Xirby will have difficulty with that. A. I understand. Q. And, finally, don't speak while I an speaking I will try not to speak while you are because he can't take down two people at once. Is that agreeable? A. Right. , 3. Dr. Dernehl, have you ever had your deposition taken before? A. Yes. ' Q. Has it ever been taken in any proceedings regarding an asbestos-related case? A. I was called to give a deposition in an asbestos-related case but the deposition was discontinued. It was a problem between the attorneys. Q. Did you actually give any testimony on the record or didn't it get that far? A. It never got that far. Q. The depositions, that you have given, generally in what context were those, what type of case? A. Usually involving chemicals. Q. -- Were those injury type cases involving chemicals or patent cases or what? A. Injury type. Q. Have you ever testified in court in an injury KIRBY A. KENNEDY- &- ASSOCIATES . (612) 922-1955 1 casa where you have actually gone with Counsel to the 2 courthouse and testified? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. Do you recall where that was? 5 A. Well, there was some involving Workmans* 6 Compensation cases that were down in Galveston County in 7 Texas. I testified in Georgia, Worth Carolina, New York, S Tennessee, maybe some others. Those are all I can recall 9 right now. 10 Q. In any of those cases in which you have 11 testified, did they involve asbestos in any way? 12 A. They did not. 13 Q. Have you ever given testimony before Congress 14 or any regulatory agency? 15 A. As I recall I testified before a Senate 16 hearing on the OSHA law during the days when it was being 17 formulated. 18 Q. Was this the OSHA law with respect to asbestos 19 in the work place or something else? 20 A. No, this was the basic OSHA law. 21 Q. Did that testimony have anything to do with 22 asbestos or-- a-sbestos standards? 23 A. No, it did not. . ' 'a c 24 Q. Have you ever given any testimony to, and this . rl 25 would be testimony under oath, in any forum regarding * v? ; * - *. KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES (612) 9 2 2 - 1 9 5 ! ^ * 1 asbestos for OSHA standards which regulate asbestos that 2 you can think of? 3 A. iio, I nave not. 4 d. Are you the author of any publications? 5 A. Regarding anything? 6 Q. Well, I will start with that and I think we 7 will narrow it down pretty quick depending on what you say. 3 A. Yes. 9 Q. About how many publications have you authored? 10 I don't need an exact number but give me a ballpark figure. 11 A. Ten. * 12 Q. Did any of those publications have anything to 13 do with asbestos? 14 A. They did not. "' ' \ 15 Q. Have you contributed to any textbooks or 16 publications or texts of any type which dealt with asbestos 17 even if you weren't the primary author? 18 A. I have not. 19 Q. Have you peer reviewed any texts orarticles 20 or published material dealing with asbestos? 21 A. I have not. 22 Q. -- Dr. Derneh l, how old are you at the present . - ; 23 time? 4 ' . 24 A. Seventy-five. ; 25 Q . ; Are you currently employed? - y ~ " " '= KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ^ASSOCIATES (612) 922-1955 `` 1 A. No. 2 Q. Would you then be retired? 3 A. I am retired. 4 Q. Are you living here in Springfield? 5 A. Yes, I am. - 6 Q. What was the last occupation you retired from? 7 A. I was the associate corporate medical direphnr 3 of Union Carbide Corporation. 9 Q. When was the date of your retirement? 10 A. It would be August, I guess, probably the 30th, 11 1979. - 12 Q. And where were you located at the time of your 13 retirement, where were you officing? 14 ' A. 270 Park Avenue, New York. 15 Q. Is that the location of the main Union Carbide 16 medical department in the United States, corporate medical 17 department? 18 A. It was at that time. 19 Q. Has that changed since that time? 20 A. Yes, it has. 21 Q. When did you begin with Union Carbide? 22 A. April 1 -1947. 23 Q. Let me just back up before that a little bit 24 and ask you what your formal education was before that time? 25 A. I was in high school in a city called '..'a V,- KIRBY A. KENNEDY &. ASSOCIATES * .. .. . (612) 1 Wauwatosa, 2 entered the 3 degree and 4 Q. When did you receive your 14.D.? 5 A. 1933. 6 Q. And that was from Wisconsin? 7 A. That was from Wisconsin. 8 Q. At Madison? 9 A. At Madison. 10 Q." What was your BA in, what field' 11 A. iSlothing specific, just general arts,'Bachelo: 12 of Arts. 13 Q. 14 obtain upon getting your 14.D.? 15 A. I had a one-ya&r rotating internship at the 16 Medical College of Virginia in Richmond, Virginia, and then 17 I stayed on for the first year of a medical residency as 18 Internal Medical Residency at the Medical College of 19 Virginia. I was scheduled to take the last two years of a 20 residency there but due to problems with the alumni, the 21 decision was made to drop a number.of non-MCV graduates 22 from the residency program and so we had to look elsev/here. 23 I then went to the medical branch of the University of 24 Texas at Galveston, Texas, where I took two years in a 25 trial residency program, which was a conflagration of . . *' ' ; '* v : .urv.f** KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES (612) 922-195*5 preventative and internal medicines. Q. Sounds like the alumni at the Medical College , . - '' ' ' ' ' of Virginia didn't like non-Virginia Medical College graduates in the residency, is that it? A. Well, their problem was that all but one of ~ their residents were from outside schools and the alumni felt that some of these residency positions should be reserved for MCV graduates. At that time residencies were hard to get, and when we were told that we were going to be dropped it was really only by sheer luck that I got this place down at the University of Texas. All of the rest of them were filled up years in advance. Q. Following that residency in Texas did you have any further education, formal education? A. After I finished the residency, I was offered a position on the teaching faculty and 1 stayed on in the Department of Preventive Medicine teaching Occupational Medicine from 1942 to 1947. Q. And did you then join Union Carbide? A. Joined Union Carbide in 1947. The University requested permission to keep me on as an advising lecturer, which was granted by Carbide. In the couple of years later, Baylor Medical College in Houston requested my services as 4 ` a faculty member and I was given a position as Clinical Assistant Professor Of Occupational Medicine, Industrial KIRBY A. KENNEDY a s s o c i a t e s ^ (612) 922-1955 i v-.... t-V'i 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Medicine at chat time. Q. Would you describe for us your positions in the medical department at Union Carbide through the years, can you take us through that chronology? A. I started in 1947 as the medical director of the 'favae n ;*y p ^r* which was a large chemical plant. I worked there until 1955 when I was transferred to New York as assistant medical director of Union Carbide Corporation with responsibility for the chemicals plants. In 1963 I was given the title of director of toxicology for the corporation. In 1965 I was given the title of associate corporate medical director with responsibility for toxicology and assorted general trouble shooting operations I was also.at that time told that I was to represent the corporation in medical affairs in various specialty organizations like the Manufacturing Chemists Association, Society of the Plascics Industry, Compressad Gas Association. done. Those I think were the major jobs that I have ,, Q. Then from '65 through *75 you were associate corporate medical director, do I have that right? A. ---'-65 through '79. - Q. '79? A. Right. Q. And you were stationed during those years at KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES (612) 922-1955 ^ - ^ ^ ^ v.!- i,'* - 1 of such files today? 2 A. To the best of ray knowledge, when I left New ' ' ''i 3 York all of those files were put in a box and they were 4 shipped somewhere, down to West Virginia, I believe. What 5 they did, whether they kept all of that stuff in West > Virginia or simply kept the chemicals part, I don't know. 7 Q. Now, in the second paragraph of Exhibit 4, the 4 3 Asbestos Toxicology Report, there is a statement, "It is 3 believed by most authorities that these cases -- " and they 10 are talking about cases of cancers, " -- have been 11 associated with exposure significantly exceeding the 12 threshold limit value." Do you see that particular 13 sentence? , 14 '=.. ,a . Yes. . :v : . ' '' 15 Q. Do you know who the authorities are that are 16 referred to there as "most authorities"? 17 A. I think that is a statement that is lifted 18 from the general literature and really does not mention any 19 specific names. * - 20 Q. Well, let me back up a little bit. Do you 21 know when this Asbestos Toxicology Report was published, 22 Exhibit 4? \ # 23 A. I do not* I am surprised that it does not 24 have a date on it* Ordinarily we dated those things. 25 Q.- I am going to show you a document marked KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES ** * (612) 922-1955 __________ ____________________ > 1 Dernehl Deposition Exhibit 32, which is a memorandum of . ' \ . . ^ _ 2 January 12, 1965, which refers to the report and ask you if 3 that gives you a point of reference to date the report9 4 MR. LAURA: I object to that 5 characterization as it refers to that report. It refers to o a report. 7 MR. POLK:1 Off the the record. ' - 3 (At this time a discussion was held off 9 the record.) 10 BY MR. BROWNSOU: 11 Q. Doctor, do you believe that this memorandum, 12 which you are looking at which is Exhibit 32, does that 3.3 help you date the Asbestos Toxicology Report that we have 14 just been referring to? 13 A. I would suggest that we probably prepared it 16 in'1964. 17 Q. Now, with that knowledge, let's go back to the 18 Asbestos Toxicology Report, does that help you determine 19 'who these authorities are that said that cases of cancer, 20 ; have been associated with exposure significantly exceeding 21 the threshold limit value? ' 22 A. Not really. . 23 Q. But is it your testimony that that statement 24 ; is based upon a review of the medical literature at the 25 time? . . . ----- ;----- ; : KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES . . V (612) 922-1955 ^ . Yf r ! A. That's right. 2 Q. Can you give us any specificarticles or^ 3 references or texts? 4 A. Not any more. 5 Q. Now, on the thirdparagraph of theAsbestos Toxicology Report you are talking about waste control 7 asbestos dust exposure. Do you see that? ' 4 8 .... A. Yes. . 9 Q. And one of the things that you talk about is 10 "wet processes where possible". What do you mean by that7 11 A. Well, if you handle the asbestos in a water 12 slurry or with the fibers thoroughly wetted with water, 13 there is no dust and there is no reasonable way that you 14 can expect the fiber to enter the body. 15 Q. And would you consider a paper making 16 operation to be a wet system? 17 A. Yes. 13 < Q. But would you agree with me that in a paper . f 19 making operation or a wet system there is some process at 20 the begining where the fiber has to be dumped into the wet 21 system where it would release dust? * 22 MR. JONES: If you know. 23 A. Yes, we know that to be true. And I know that 24 Carbide tried to handle -- to reduce the amount of'dusting 25 that occurred at such a time by .pelletizing the product so KIRBY A. KENNEDY & .ASSOCIATES /r .,,.Vsi-'V (612) 922-1955v` 4 dLf< ||li|gkV, ' ^ J, Vs f 2 * v that it wasn't just loosa fibers in a bag, which is the way . . it was originally sold. 3ut the product was pelletized so whan you dumped you had much less dust and your local 4 exhaust ventilation at the point of dumping more readily 5 picked up and carried away the dust. ' 6 Q. Would you agree, however, that even the 7 pelletized asbestos did create some dust as it was being 3 dumped into the wet process in a paper making operation'' 9 A. I think very probably it did, yas. 10 Q. Would you also agree that even the pelletized 11 asbestos would create dust during delivery and unloading if 12 bags were broken or that sort of thing? 13 A. Certainly. ..... 14 Q. Would you also agree that in a paper making 15 operation where you have a wet system, after that product 16 comes out of the dryer and is now in a paper board form 17 that you would get dust as it's cut and drilled and ground 16 and those sort of things? ' ":. , . . . . . . 19 MR. JONES: I,will object on the basis 20 of foundation. 21 ; A. Not to my knowledge whatsoever. ' 22 C* Have you ever observed a paper making 23 operation using the Calridia asbestos? 24 : A. No, I have not. ` ' ... 25 Q.. Do you know of any Union Carbide customers who . . s KIRBY A. KENNEDY &. ASSOCIATES . . > - (612) 922-1955: .>r/p ^ ^ :-------------- ;--------- ----------------------- 1 2 3 4 3 6 7 3 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 13 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 had such operations? v A. I know that Calridia asbestos was sold to^ certain customers for that purpose but I do not know who the customers were. Q. Have you ever heard of the Conwed Corporation? A. . No. . Q. Never visited their plant at Cloquet, . ' Minnesota? A. No. Q. And I take it then you weren't aware that it was a manufacturer of ceiling tile? ' A. No. Q. Among other things? -, . A. . NO. .: v \ . \ : . ' , . Q. Would you agree with me that as of the date the Asbestos Toxicology Report was written, why don't you xook at it again, the recommendations that you made to control dust were to use a closed flow system, a wet process, adequate ventilation and pelletizing of the asbestos? I am getting that all out of Paragraph 3 there. MR. JONES* Look at it again. ' A. !"Closed flow systems, wet processes were possible, and adequate exhaust ventilation where openings in the system are necessary" ' , MR. LAURA* Let the record reflect that KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOIATES - ' (612) 922-1955 . ^ . : 7- _____________ ;_________V! the Doctor was reading from his report. A. Then we also recommend the use of respirators. Q. Where do you see that on there? -N A. It says, "Where satisfactory containment tc stay within the threshold limit value is impractical or impossible, efficient and reliable respirators are available for the protection of employees." . Q. .low, would you agree with me, however, that the recommendations made by you in the Asbestos Toxicology Report are, Number 1, a closed flow system? MR. JONES: I am going to object to the form of the question first in the sense that he did not draft it by himself. Second, that what recommendations the document makes are in the document itself. You can go ahead and answer. , 'V A. Well, I agree to what is in this paragraph. Q. Paragraph 3 of the toxicology report? ' A. Certainly.- I think that covers the thing very !"practically and it is state of the art protection of that day and time. Q. One of the things listed in Paragraph 3 is the statement, "In paper manufacturing, it would be desirable to know the dust concentrations where the asbestos is dumped from bags into the pulp slurry." Do you see that' ; . A . . : Yes. ... ' --------------- - KIRBY A. KENNEDY &. ASSOCIATES : " ... . (612) 922-1955^/^ - (T Why would that be desirable to know* 2 A. Because that's the place where a person might" 3 be exposed where the product is removed from its protective 4 bag covering as used in shipping and it gets exposed to the 5 outside air and allows the escape of fibers to the outside 6 air. 7 Q. Would that be true with the pelletized 3 asbestos as well as the open fiber? 9 A. We are talking about pelletized fiber here. 10 Q. And it also goes on to say, "Concentrations 11 should also be determined where dusting occurs in finishing 12 products." Do you see that? 13 A. I see that. ^ , 14 Q* I take it from that statement that it was 15 recognized that once the product comes out of the wet 16 system and is in the finishing stage, you can get dust 17 there, is that right? Is that what we are talking about 18 there? : . - 19 A. That is what the statement implies, and I 20 assume at the time we wrote this we were told that this 21 would occur. . ; . ,, 22 Q. -- Now, do you know if any tests were done by 23 Union Carbide to determine what the dust concentrations 24 were at the point that pellets were dumped from bags into 25 the pulp slurry? . . >. KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES (612) 922-1955 .';;; ` 1 K. Union Carbide did not do that kind of testing. 2 That would be the responsibility of tha user. 3 Q. Did Union Carbide ever tell customers or users 4 that they should do that testing? 5 A. Did it right here. 6 (J. You are saying that Paragraph 3 of the 7 asbestos toxicology report tells customers to do that? 8 A. That's right. 9 Q. Did Union Carbide ever do any testing to 10 determine what concentrations of dust were in finishing 11 products in che paper industry? ' 12 A. That was the responsibility of the customer. 13 Union Carbide did not do testing in the customer's plant. 14 Q. Well, if the evidence in this case shows that 15 Union Carbide did do testing at the Conwed plant, would 16 that surprise you? 17 A. If they did, I didn't know about it and I 13 would be surprised if they did. 19 HR. J0JES`j Your questions were talking 20 about at the finished product end? 21 MR. BROWNSON: My last question was 22 anywhere in-tho-plant-^- I just said at the plant. 23 MR. JONES: I just want to make sure that '4 24 the Doctor understood that. 25 A. Well, it was our policy not to do testing at KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES (612) 922-1955 : W".,: ,, "11 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 13 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 the.customer's plant. That was the responsibility of the customer. If a Carbide person came in and did sampling in the Conwed plant I would be very much surprised. Q. Would you be surprised to hear that sampling . was done by Union Carbide at the point where the bags were dumped into the pulp slurry? A. I would be surprised to find out that Union Carbide people did that, yes. Q. Would you also be surprised to find out that sampling and testing were done by Union Carbide at the point where the products were being finished? ' A. Yes, I would be surprised to hear that. Q. Now, look at Page 2 of the Asbestos Toxicology Report. It also says that, "Pre-employment and periodic physical examination of workers are desirable." Do you see that? A. Yes. Q. And then it goes on to say, "These should include chest X-rays." Do you know why this particular statement uas made in the Asbestos Toxicology Report? what was the purpose of putting it in there? A. -- Well,-- jrtr^-s known that breathing excessive quantities of asbestos will produce changes within the lung that show up on X-ray. ' Q. Was it also known by you or the Union Carbide i- *'h 4 KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES (612) 922-1955 remember the request for analytical assistance from Union Carbide. Q. Now -- ; A. It s probable that I did see the report since I recollect that part about the analytical assistance. Q. wnt request for analytical assistance are you speajcing of? A. Let's see if I can find it back hare in the text. This would be on Page 15. Q. That's Paragraph 5.0 entitled "Request for Analytical Assistance." A. Yes. Q. What do you remember about that request? A. Well, my recollection is thattheywanted Carbide to use some analysis to help to quantitatively define the parameters to be used in -- parameters of the fibers that were to be used in testing. Q. And who is the they that was making that request, was that Dr. Timbre.ll? A. I think it was probably -- Q. Or Dr. Sayers? think A. . that I think it was they wanted help probably arequest of UICC. I _ in defining this matter. Now, without reading this line-by-line I couldn't tell you specifically which individual requested it. KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES (612) 922-1955 v ; i 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 13 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 medical department at the time this Asbestos Toxicology Report was written that mesothelioma could be caused by exposure to asbestos? A. I am not sure it was known at the time that cnis was in here, although in the earlier paragraph up here they talked about increase in the incidents of cancerous tumors, especially of the lung. Q. Would you agree with me that mesothelioma is a cancerous tumor of the lining of the lung? A. That's right, I would agree with that. ' Q. Let's move on to another exhibit. ' MR. GOLDBERG: might want to review the time. Before you do that, you ; MR. BROWNSON: It's five to 12:00. MR. JONES: 45 minutes for lunch. Why don*t we break; now for (At this time a lunch recess was taken.) BY MR. 3R0WNS0N: Q. Dr. Dernehl, the next thing I want to show you is what13 been marked as Dernehl Exhibit 5, and Dernehl Exhibit 5 is a report by Doctor I. C. Sayers in England and with Union Carbide-- U .K . Limited.' I will show it to you. I will ask you, first of all, have you ever seen that report before I have shown it to you right now? A. I really do not remember the report. I do ... ' . r/; , _ '* . KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES . ... n* . (612) 922-195.5 ' ; ;; i gP 1 2 u. v;no is uicc? A. That was the organization that was being set 3 up to determine the characteristics of the fibers that were 4 to be used in a series of tests to determine the effects of 5 asbestos in animals, animal experimentation. . 5 Q. Who was setting up this UICC, I guess, is what 7 I am wondering? 3 A. The international organization. 9 Q. './as Union Carbide involved with it? 10 A. I think it was a European organization. Union 11 Carbide would have been involved only through the British 12 organization. . 13 Q. Was the British organization Union Carbide, U. 14 K. Limited? 15 A. Probably, yes. 16 Q. That name is on the fir?t page of the Sayers' 17 report and, 1 guess, that's why I asked the question. You f 13 wouldn't disagree? 19 A. No. - 20 Q. Do you know Dr. I. C. Sayers? 21 A. I don't know him, no. 22 q . -- Have you ever heard of him? 23 A. I don't know him. I haven't heard of him 24 other than what I would have gotten from this report. 25 Q. You told us today that reports about KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES (612) 922-1955 v y industrial hygiene or toxicology from Union Carbide overseas subsidiaries would be routed to your department? 'A. Yes. Q. exhibit Would that be true with this report as well. MR. HARVARD: Is this Exhibit 7? A. Exhibit 5. Q. I take that back,Exhibit 5. A. I think, as a matter of fact, we just would have been sort of on the fringes of this. This would be a request to go to the management people, since it 'involved commitment of laboratory facilities, people and the finances that were involved and medical would not be involved in that part of it. Q. 3ut it, nevertheless,contains numerous toxicology and industrial hygiene conclusions from England, and I am assuming that? A. It's possible. Q. As such it would have come to your attention'9 ' MR. JONES: Let me object to the testimony of Counsel characterizing the document. Go ahead and answer -i>, TVw-*r>r. . A. I have stated that the only thing that I remember about this document was a request for -- was the only thing that makes me think I saw this document is I KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES VT. (612 ) 9 2 i - m > W i g g - ' . , ,.r . / 1 remember the request for support of the analytical studies. 2 Q. Weil, would you agree -- j A. The rest of the document I do not remember 4 seeing. 5 0. Would you agree with me that this document o discusses toxicology issues concerning Union Carbide 7 asbestos at the 3ritish subsidiary? 3 A. Without reading the whole document I couldn't 9 agree to that, no. 10 Q. Well, let's look at Page 4, Paragraph 1.0, the 11 introduction reads, "Union Carbide U.K. Limited has been 12 promoting the sale of Coalinga asbestos for just over two 13 years. During this time, the public has become 14 increasingly aware of the considerable health risks 15 associated with the use of this material. So far, over 20 lii potential customers have raised the issue and have 17 requested an assurance that Carbide's material will not be 18 a source of danger to their employees." Now, would you 19 agree that those statements raise industrial hygiene and 20 toxicology issues about the use of Union Carbide asbestos 21 in England? 22 ________ M3 , JONES: Object again to the form of 23 the question. The foundation is not set. Unless you give 24 him a chance to read the entire document he can't answer 25 the question. .. ... KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES (612) 922-1955 ? ^ . t tJ- to ' ^ 1 MR. BROWNSOWs I am asking the question 2 based upon the statements I just read. i MR. JONES: Based upon two isolated 4 statements from the document? . 5 MR. BROWNSON: Yes. 6 MR. JONES: Same objection. 7 A. Well, apparently this first paragraph 3 indicates that customers in England raised some questions 9 about the hazards of asbestos and it further follows in the 10 next paragraph to say that some of these concerns were 11 answered by materials sent from the New York office and the 12 Asbestos Toxicology Report, which you showed me earlier. 13 and that these reports had gone part way in alleviating 14 some of the concerns that existed. -J 15 Q. Well, based upon the three paragraphs entitled 16 "Introduction" that we have just looked at on Page 4 of 24 17 of this report, wouldn't you agree with me that this 18 discusses industrial hygiene and toxicology issues' 19 MR. J0WE&? Again, same objection. 20 Characterization of the document which the witness did not 21 write, the document speaks for itself. 22 A. -- W5li r a s I stated before, on the basis -- I 23 can only say that on the basis of these initial paragraphs 24 it is suggested that the subsequent contents of this 25 document would have something to say about the hazards . ' vv> . ' -VA<\*- *->-* 'V. * KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES (6 i2 ) 92 2 -1 9 5 5 ; associated with the use of asbestos. U. And is that not the type of information which would corns to you in the medical department? A. I have already indicated that the only thing that I remember about this document is -- at this time the o m y thing I remember is the request for support for the analytical studies. I do not recall the rest of the report. . Q. Maybe my question isn't clear. I am not asking you if you remember this particular document, I am asking you isn't this document of the type that would come to your attention because it contains toxicology and industrial health issues? A. It would come to my attention. Q. Now, do you know what they are referring to in the third paragraph in the introduction where they say, "Carbide's replies have been based upon two communications set by New York office on March 22nd 1966, and October 7th, 1966"? ....... A. I have no idea what they said. Q. Do you have any recollection of being informed of the work of Newhouse and Thompson at the London hospital that's talked-aboui-- in- Paragraph 2? *. A. No, I do hot. Q. Do you ever remember hearing about problems wich dock workers in London handling Union Carbide asbestos, . * . t - ' : 1 KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES = . ,& * (612) 922-1955 ` sT refusing to unload it from ships? 2 A. I remember hearing about that, yes. 3 'Q. Do you know who you heard that from' 4 A. I heard that by word of mouth in the course of 5 just general discussions. 6 Q. And do you know what steps Union Carbide took, 7 if * to alleviate the fears of those dock workers? a A. No, I do not. 9 Q. .Will you look on Page 5 of the report' 10 Paragraph 2.2 is entitled "Paper," and I would ask you to 11 look at that paragraph. - 12 A. The first paragraph? 13 Q. Wall, the whole section about the -- Paragraph 14 2.2 about paper. . 15 MR. JONES: Bob, to avoid interrupting 15 you later on, would you accept a continuing objection to 17 subsequent discussions of various paragraphs isolated from 18 the report without giving him an opportunity to read the 19 whole report? r .. 20 ' HR. BROWNSON: Well, I don't like that 21 objection because I am going to have him read each section 22 that i ask him about. 23 MR. POLK: Counsel, you are representing 24 by that objection or the request for a continuing objection 25 that this witness has not reviewed this report before his KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES (612) 922-1955^ ; *V>**Vufc* deposition today, is that correct? MR. JONES: I didn't make any representation like that. MR. POLK: Well, in ray opinion the objection is not well taken if it's established through this witness's testimony that he has reviewed the report before his deposition today. MR. HARVARD: The witness stated on the record that he would not be in a position to answer what the report says or doesn't say unless he had an opportunity to go through the whole thing a moment ago, and I think that's foundation for the objection. That's the extent to which I believe the objection is offered. MR. BROWNSON: We have now reached the point where three different Union Carbide lawyers have made objections at the deposition. I don't'mean to cut you guys off, but why don't one of you make the objection? . MR. JONES: Your concern is noted. . ! MR. BROWNSON: I don't care if you consult or whatever, but we will be here all day if everyone is thinking of objections. - :--- ---- M R . LAURA: Off the record for a second. (At this time a discussion was held off the record.) . BY MR. BROWNSON: ' ' " . ' ' . . . , V ' ' ' ` KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES : ;-10 . (612) 9 2 2 - 1 9 5 5 ; : ' - 7*1 1 Q. Have you ever read this report before now' 2 A. I may have read the report when it first came 3 in my hands, assuming it did. I assume it did. 4 Q. Did you read it in preparation for your 5 deposition today? ' 6 A. No. 7 a* Have you now had a chance to look at Section 3 2.2 entitled "Paper"? 9 A. Yes. 10 MR.JONES: Do you have aresponse to my 11 request for a continuing objection? * 12 MR. BR0WN30N: Go ahead, that's fine. I 13 don't think it's a good objection. 14 -r MR. JONES: I didn't expect you to. 15 BY MR. 3R0WNS0N: 16 Q. Would you agree with me in Section 2.2 of the 17 Sayers report Dr. Sayers is describing concerns raised by IS paper makers in England to the use of Union Carbide 19 asbestos in their plant? ** 20 A. Well, in part it's true. Itnot totally true. 21 2.2.3, for example, will tell. The Tullis people indicate 22 that their fai lure ~to-u se the material was not so much the 23 dust proposition as it was the fact that there was 24 indeterminant experimental work I gather on their product. 25 Q. Would you agree though that at Southalls, the ... ______________ ' ! X ______ ' - ' . ' KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES -. : (612) 9 2 2 - 1 9 5 5 ; . ^ ^ ^ ^ ; ; , - - ^ . 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 e 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 .21 22 23 24 25 Charles Turner Mill, and the Tullis Paper Mill seems to be expressing to Dr. Sayers about the use of Union Carbide . / asbestos in their paper mills? A. They raise questions about it, yes. Q. Do you know if Union Carbide took any specific steps to answer these questions raised by the paper makers in England? A. I have no idea. Q. Do you know if Union Carbide ever advised its customers in the United States in the paper industry about these conversation from England? ' A. I have no idea. Q. Why don't you go to Page 8 of the Sayers report? Paragraph 3.3 is entitled "Literature Surveys," and it reads, "These are made from time to time on the subject of toxicology, and a number of more important articles have been collected." Do you see that reference' - A. Uh-huh. Q, Do you know who- is making the literature surveys that they talk about there? A. 1 do not know. Q. -- Would you- agree with me as a general * proposition that in trying to determine the toxicology of asbestos it would be a good idea to survey the medical literature on that topic? ' ' " 1 ,5 7 . . ' - * ' KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES . (612) 922-1955 ` " sl . > ' A. I think that we did survey the literature in terms of keeping abreast of the material which came into our hands. We did not specifically initiate a broad survey of all the liter&ture in the vorld. Vie did try to keep abreast of the literature that came out in the United States on this product. Q. Are you aware of literature which came out in the United States in the 1360s concerning studies done at the South African asbestos mines with respect to disease? A. Africa. We saw some literature which came out of South . - Q. Now, I am not speaking about literature published in South Africa, I am speaking about literature published in America concerning the disease in the South African asbestos? > A. I would say that the only thing that we saw in that regard were some references that were published in Selikoff's papers. Q. My next question then, Dr. Dernehl, is did you also see some of the literature published outside of this country about studies of disease among South African asbestos mine workers? A. We did see an occasional report which came to `4 our attention. Q- Did you see studies about disease associated * KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES . (612) 922-1955i^ : ^ g ' . . -- wich Canadian chrysotile mine workers? A. Yes, that we did. Q. Do you know if those were the studies of Dr. J. C. McDonald, the other Dr. McDonald? A. I believe they were. Q. I will next ask you to go to Paragraph 4.4.2 on Page 11 which is entitled "Cause of Disease." ' quote in that paragraph they refer to cases -- In the MR. JONES: read the whole section? Have you had a chance to ' quote. THE WITNESS: I have read through the ........ 3Y MR. BROWNSON: Q. They are referring to cases in Canada, six in number from 1952 to 1954. My question is,.are those the cases that we just mentioned that you saw coming out of the chrysotile miners? ....... A. They -were part of them. = Q. McDonald articles? A. There were others besides mesothelioma. Q. Right. But does this reference, which you have just read, the-quote appear to talk about some of the cases cited by Dr. McDonald among the Canadian chrysotile miners? ' A. Part of the cases, yes.* KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES (6 1 2 ) -"922-i9'55* * S * a. 7.i.l -- On Page 13 of the Sayers report, at Paragraph A. All right. r Q. They quote from your toxicology report, and this is a quote we discussed earlier, "In paper manufacturing, it would be desirable to know the dust concentrations where the asbestos i3 dumped from bags into the pulp slurry." Do you see that quote? A. Yes. Q. Do you know why it was considered desirable to have that information? - A. Well, because if the dust concentrations were high it would be highly hazardous areas. If the dust concentrations were low it would be an area of less concern. Q. It then goes on to state that, "Dr. Taylor believes that there is more dust produced in opening a paper or plastic bag of asbestos than there is with a conventional hessian sack.* Do you see that reference? A. Yes. - MR. JONES: Would you like him to read ' the whole section then he can talk about it all at once? -------- MiU- BROWNSON: No. MR. JONES: Okay. BY MR. BR0WN50N: . Q. Have you ever heard of such a thing, that *.&*** KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES (612) r - 1 there is more dust produced in opening a paper sack? 2 A. No, I have not. 3 Q. Is that the first time you have ever heard 4 that statement made? 5 A. Well, if I read this report I assume I saw 6 this statement before. I also notice the following 7 statement that, "No satisfactory answer was forthcoming." 8 This was his opinion. . 9 Q. They then go on to say two paragraphs later, 10 "It is recommended that a dust count be made in a region of 11 a freshly opened bag of pelletized and open products." Do 12 you know if that was ever done? 13 ( 14 A. I have no way of knowing. Q. Do you know if your medical department ever 15 did such a study? 16 A. To the best of my knowledge we did not. 17 Q. Do you know a Dr. Hilton Lewinsohn? 18 A. Lewinsohn, he is the guy with Carbide now? 19 Q. Well, he is, r-ight. 20 A. I have met him once, I think, up in New York. 21 Q. Do you remember when you met him? 22 A. --- About-- 1-985. 23 Q. Do you know, was he at Union Carbide at that 24 time? - 25 A. I believe he was, yes. KIRBY A. KENNEDY 6 ASSOCIATES . (612) .922-1955 \i *- : Q. Do you know where Dr. Lewinsohn was employed in September of 19?5? A. No I didn't know that. Q* Do you know where he worked before he came to Union Carbide? A. No. He came to Carbide after I left, if he is there now. ' ' 4 ' Q- Do you know where he worked at the time you met him in 1985? Was he at Carbide at that point? A. I can't be certain. I would say he worked at South Charleston. ' Q. Have you ever heard a reference to Dr. Lewinsohn and his TBA Associates do you know what that would mean? i. : . ' ; , '- , A* TBA Associates? HR. JONES: B as in boy? . HR. BROWNSON: Yes. A* NO. Q. You don't know what that refers to? . A. No, I have no idea what that refers to. Q- Do you remember some industrial hygiene studies that were conducted at the Charleston, West Virginia plant in a couple buildings called buildings 511 J0*!% and 512 back in 1962 and '63? ' c A. 511 and 512, that would be up in the research'" ' ---------------------------- -- -- __ c -- (612) 922-19,55 : .  M IIS J B L, 91' ( ,1 />, . f l l /. ;M I ^jf 1 '< I fl 'f I g 1 ^ll |j| B HI ?m 1 ml f SI v SI *X| 91 Ml H fl f| U S| SI 11 f| '11 ( f| V 'jSe 'M l l 2 j 4 5 s 7 a 9 10 11 12 - 13 . 14 15 16 17 13 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 ' * / . 1 ^ ._/ area, I think. Wo, I can't recall what you are talking about. , Q. Well, thesq were particular studies that were done about dust caused by workers sawing insulation block, I think with a band saw. Counsel. MR. JONES: Object to the testimony by 3Y MR. BR0WNS0N: * Q. all? Does that help refresh your recollection at A. Buildings 511 or 512 or plant 511 and 512? Q. It's called plant 511 and 512. ....... A. Okay. Yes, that was done at the plant level to determine the quantities of dust that were developed in sawing insulation that was applied to pipes. Q. And do you remember that particular work that was done in connection with that? A. I just know it was done. Q. Do you know why it was done"5 A. Because we wanted to know how much dust was produced by the process. .. - v Q. Do you knov; if there had been complaints from workers in those plants about the dust? A. I don't think there would be any compl'aints by ' the workers. I think this was a concern of supervisors in ~ :- ' KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES -SI -< -i -\ . (612) 922-1955 - ^ : ^ ^ che industrial hygiene department about the potential hazardous nature of the work. Q. I am going to show you what has been marked as Dernehl Exhibit 24 which is a memo of July 20, 19S2. r BY MR. BROWNSON: HARVARD: V7hat's the number on that' MR. BROWNSON: Exhibit 24. ' Q. The question I am going to ask you is is that a memorandum concerning this study on sawing insulation in Charleston, West Virginia? MR. POLK: I will object to the form of the question. The document speaks for itself. A. Your question was. Q. Is that a memorandum concerning the dust, what we have just been talking about, from sawing insulation at Charleston, West Virginia? A. At the Institute plant? Q * That's the Institute plant? , A. . 9 . Q. Now, on that memo on Exhibit 24, it indicates that a copy was sent to you. Do you see that on the top? A. Yes. Q. Do you remember receiving it? A* Sure. . Q. The next one I want to show you is Exhibit 26 -- - .. - . KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES. ... ~ \ (612) 922-1955 . ` wall, we will go with Exhibit 25, and I will ask you if you have ever seen that before? MR. HARVARD: VJliile he is looking at it ^uld you stats for the record what the document is so we can make our notes now? MR. BR0WN30N: That's a memo of December J, 1962 from the medical department at Plant 512 at Institute, Wast Virginia. BY MR. BROWNSON: Q. v Can you tell us what that is, v/hat the document is? ' A. Well, it's a document prepared by the industrial hygienist at the Institute plant concerning dust problems with the sawing of blocks of asbestos-containing insulation and Johns-Manvilie's complaints that the results of-our observations did not coincide with observations that they had made at their manufacturing plant in Manville, New Jersey. He requested that the supervisor of the insulation department and the industrial hygienist visit the Manville plant to see if we could determine why there was a discrepancy in the results. 3. Let me show you what has been marked Exhibit 26, and ask you if you can tell us what that is? That's a memo of December 4, 1962. A./ Well,, in essence this is a letter from the KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES (612) 922-1955 * ' i . ' _________ __ ;____________________ ;_______ 5 1 1 Medical Director, Dr. Sexton, to his supervisor, Jim 2 Giambruno, to not send Mr. Peele to Johns-IIanville to 3 supervise or to study the Johns-Manville report, but that 4 we were to continue to do a sampling in our plant as the 5 situation indicated. : 6 Q. And that shows that a copy was sent to you as 7 well, correct? ' * 3 A. That's right, information copy. 9 Q. I assume you would have read it when you got 10 it? 11 A. Probably. ' 12 Q. Exhibit 27, would you tell us what that is? 13 MR. HARVARD: Could I see Exhibit Number 14 26, please? -- . - , . -. ' ' 15 MR. BR0WN30N: December 4. 15 ' MR. JONES: For the record. Exhibit 27 17 is a letter from Saxton to Giambruno dated 23 October 1963. 18 A. V7ell, in essence this says that he is 19 submitting -- that Dr. Sexton is submitting a report from 20 Mr. Paela which indicates that two types of 21 asbestos-containing insulation blocks cannot be processed 22 with reasonable dust concentrations that one other type can. 23 Q. And is that also by Sexton? 24 A. It's by Dr. Sexton. ` ... 25 Q. Dr. Sexton of Union Carbide? KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES (612) 922-1955 ; - 1 A. Right. 2 c. ''Okay. ' '' ' ' 3 A. The medical director of the Institute plant. 4 d. I am now going to show you what has been 5 narked as Dernehl Deposition Exhibit 33 and ask you if you 6 can rail us what that is? 1 ~ S . 7 MR. JOKES: For the record, this is a 3 latter dated June 7, 1967, to Dr. Hall fro* Dr. Dernehl. 9 Beyond thac I would object to the form of the question. 10 The document speaks for itself as to what it is. 11 BY MB. BR0WN30N: ' 12 Q. Have you now had a chance to read if5 13 A. I did read it. 14 ; Q. Did you review this document before your .-V = -f*| ' m 15 deposition today? 16 A. Which document? 17 Q. The one you are looking at there. 13 A. This one? 19 " Q. Yes. . j * . 20 A. Yes, I did see this. 21 a. When did you review it, do you know? ' 22 A. Last night. ^ 23 Q. Now, is that a leter from you of June 7, 1967, 24 to Dr. Tom Hall? 25 A.; Yes, it is. .. N KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES - - (612) 922-1955 : V:'fy*-- - Q And it indicates in the very first line that you have reviewed Dr. Sayers'^report? A. Correct. 0. Untitled, The "asbestos as a Health Hazard in the U.K."? A. x Yes, I did. / - . : . ' Q. 3ased on that, would you now agree that you ' . did in fact review the sales reports? A. 1 indicated before I probably reviewed the report, but I don't remember it. Q. llow that you see this letter would you agree with me that you did review it? A. I did review it. I still don't remember it. Q. ilow, in the second paragraph on Page 1 in about the middle you say, "We therefore made some preliminary studies in which the material was injected into the belly cavity of guinea pigs, rats and rabbits." Are you referring there to the Mellon Institute study that we just spoke about a little while ago? ' . A. That's correct. Q. Going then to Page 2, to the second paragraph. and the copy is not real good but you speak in that paragraph about halfway through about the threshold limit value. Do you see that? . A. Yes. i '-* s KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES -- -- .. ;.r; *VjJ. - ' (612) 922-1955 \&dP Q. And you state, "It is probable that the five 2 million particles par cubit foot will not be acceptable for 3 the prevention of mesothelioma." 4 A. Yes. . ......... 5 Q. That indicates, I take it, by at least June 7, 6 1967 some research was being done by Union Carbide with 7 respect to mesothelioma? 8 A. No. 9 Q. It does not indicate that? 10 A. It does not indicate that at all. This is my 11 personal opinion being expressed. 12 Q. Well, it does indicate that as of that date 13 you were aware of the disease mesothelioma? 14 A. Correct. 15 Q. And it also indicates that you questioned as 16 of June 7, 1967, whether the then threshold limit value was 17 sufficient to prevent mesothelioma? 18 A. I was concerned that it might not be. 19 Q. In fact, you were concerned that even one 20 million particles per cubic foot might not be enough, is 21 that right? - 22 A. That's a possibility. 23 Q. And that was one-fifth of thethreshold limit 24 value in effect that date? 25 A. That's correct. ' . KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES . (612) 922-1955 ' * + ' . , *?. Q. Now, do you know if this concern about the threshold limit value not preventing mesothelioma was ever communicated to Union Carbide customers? A. I do not believe that it was communicated to customers because it had no basis in fact, it was simply a personal opinion at the time. Q. But it was your -- A. It was my concern that this would not be * acceptable. Q. And at that point in time you were -- I had- better get the title again, associate medical director in '67? A. Q. In '67, yes, I was associate medical director. One of the other Union Carbide employees whose deposition was taken in this case, Bert Barton, described you as the Union Carbide toxicological guru. Would you agree with that assessment? A. I don't know what guru naans, but I was the expert in toxicology. * . 3. Would it be fair to say that in the Union Carbide company you were the expert or authority in .the field of toxicology? A. That's correct. Q. And would it be fair to say that your.opinions on that subject would carry a good deal of weight within KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES .(612) 922-1955 the company? 2 MR. JONES: I will objsct to the form of 3 the question as to asking him to speculate about oacple's 4 state of mind. Go ahead and answer, if you can. 5 A. Let's say that I liked to think that my 6 opinions would carry considerable weight. 7 . I will show you what has been marked as 3 Dernahl Exhibit 34 and ask you first, is that another 9 document that you reviewed before the deposition here today' 10 A. No, I did not review this. 11 Q. Okay. . 12 A. This is one we looked at before. 13 Q. I am not sure if we did or not, but you might 14 have looked at it over lunch. 15 A. The Asbestos Toxicology Report. 16 Q. I am asking now about the letter. 17 A. The letter? ..... 18 Q. To Prank Dexter. .... ... 19 < MR. JONES: For the record, 'this is a 20 letter dated June 13, 1957, to Frank Dexter from T. J. Hall 21 with a two page asbestos toxicology report attached to it. 22 A. I don't remember thisletter, but I do 23 remember that problems arose with the badly damaged 24 shipments of bags of asbestos and the refusal of the dock ' 25 workers to unload those badly damaged shipments. ' KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES ' ` * . ' ~ ' (612) 922-1953 3-V. X* 2 J 4 5 6 7 3 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 " " :------:----:----- :-- ------ :--------------------- Q* And were these badly damaged shipments, the ones over in England? A. In England. ' C. And these were the dock workers who wouldn't unload them from ships? A. That's right. , Q. And that was because the bags were broken and they were very dusty? A. Yes. Q. pellets? Do you remember if that was open fiber or - A. I have no idea. Q. Do you remember what type of bags those were7 A. I have no idea. Q. ` A. Do you know if they were paper bags7 I have no idea. Q. The first paragraph of the letter says that Dr. Dernehl has followed this area very closely, the area of possible toxicity and carcinogenic*properties of - asbestos, would you a agree with that as of June 13, 1967? A. I would say that we had followed it closely, I am not sure that I would say very closely. Q. And, again, following it closely includes reviewing medical literature on that topic? " ' A.. As it came to hand, very closely, it might . .<''V... .. KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES ^ ; - ' (612) 922-1955 V_______________________ - ____________ ______ [P*~ hav3 involved going ouc and searching for stuff racher than just keeping abreast of the stuff that was coning to hand. Q. Can you identify for us what Exhibit 34 is'* for the record. MR. JONES: It's already been identified the record. MR. BR0WN50N: I didn't think it was for BY MR. 3R0WNS0N: * Q. Tell us who the author is and what the date was. MR. JONES: That's been done. A. This was apparently written by T. J. Hall. Q. Do you know T. J. Hall to be Dr. Thomas Hall? A.... That would be my understanding. Q. Okay. A. And apparently it was written to a Mr. Frank Dexter who I do not know. Q. Earlier I had showed you Exhibit 32, which is a memorandum of January 12, 1965. I Will ask you now, does that exhibit indicace that a copy was sent to you? . MR. POLK: Did you say January oc July' MR. 3R0WNS0N: January. A. Yes, I saw the memorandum. Q. That's all I have on that. The next exhibit I want to show you is Dernehl Deposition Exhibit 35, and I : *. : KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES : (612) 922-19$5 " V V ' -- " ~W ' 1 will ask you first, i3 that something you reviewed before 2 the deposition today? 3 A. No. 4 Q. Would you look at it now then? 5 MR. JONES: For the record, this is a 6 letter dated August 1, 1967, to Frank Dexter from Thomas 7 Hall. 3 BY MR. BROWNSON: 9 Q. Have you had a chance to review it? 10 A. Yes. li Q. Can you identify for uswhat that is? 12 MR. JONES: I will object to that, the 13 document speaks for itself. c 14 BY MR. BROWNSON: . . ;.' .. . ,. ' 15 Q. Doesthat documentindicate thata copy was 16 sent to you? 17 A. Yes, it does. ..... 13 Q. And would you agree that a copy was sent to 19 you? ... 20 A. Yes, it was.. 21 Q* The next document I want to show you is 22 Deposition Exhibit-- 36--and I will first ask you if you 23 reviewed that before your deposition? 4 . 24 A. No, I did not. C 25 Q I will then ask you to take a look at it. KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES : - (612) 922-1955.: 1 i'nat s .a letter of November 30, 1967, to Frank Dexter from 2 Thomas Hail in Brussels. , 3 .IK. PGLKs Well, I think, for the record, 4 it ought to reflect that there is a second page attached to 5 that exhibit that is not typewritten but in some 5 handwritten form. 7 BY HR. BROifJSON: 3 Q. Do you recognize the signature at the bottom 9 of the first page where it says Thomas, the signature of 10 Dr. Thomas Hall? 11 A. 12 Tom Hall. It says Thomas Hall below it, so I assume it's 13 0* There is some handwriting on the left margin 14 of that page. Can you tell whose handwriting that is? 15 . 16 A. No, I can't. \ t ' . Q. Can you tell us whose initials those are at 17 the bottom of it? 18 A. I have no idea. 19 Q Paragraph 2 of <this letter there is a sentence, 20 "Perhaps it would be better to have this sort of 21 publication", and they are talking about the Sayers' report, 22 "-- first approved--by-- Carl Dernehl before we finally agree." 23 Do you see that? 24 A. Yes, but this does not refer to the Sayers' 25 report really. ' , - KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES . (612) 9 2 2 - 1 9 5 5 , . . . . . :Ub :V : _______________ ________ ;_________ ________________ (v1\ 1 Q. Do you know -- 2 A* It says* "In this report Ian passes on a 3 request for permission to publish our data." This is th'r 4 analytical data that should bo developed at Niagara Falls, 5 "I would like your comments on this." 6 Q. Well, it says that "Ian", and I assume that's 7 Ian Sayers, "Passes on the request for permission to 8 publish our data." Do you know what data that refers to'' 9 A. The data that would be -- wait a minute here 10 now. Belgium to Dexter, Union Carbide. No, I don't know 11 what that data refers to but this must have to do' with some 12 asbestos data developed by Union Carbide B e l g i u m . ..... 13 Q. 'Well, attached to it is handwritten notes of 14 Dr. Sayers, is that right? 15 A. Well, I don't know who wrote the handwritten 16 note. 17 Q. The letter says it's Dr. Sayers handwritten 18 notes, is that right? 19 MR. JONES: It speaks for itself. 20 ~ MR. HARVARD: Are you asking if that's 21 what the letter says, Bob? 22 ' ' 23 --- :-- ;-- MiW BROWNSOH: Yes. . ' MR. JONES: I don't see it. Can you 24 point out where on the letter? 25 ' MR. BROWNSON: First paragraph right in \ ____________________ ;______________ _______ _________ >*- .. . KIRBY A. KENNEDY ASSOCIATES - - `V (612) 922-1955 ; . -i: X the aiddle 2 A. Okay. i Q. Does that indicate-- ' # . . . 4 A* I am enclosing a copy of his handwritten 5 report for your information." All right. So Sayers says, S "Chrysotile fibers, being curved, are less likely to go 7 deep into lungs. Injected chrysotile does cause cancer in 3 idea, so the fact that in practice it is less responsible 9 for tumor production is probably due to a greater 10 elimination rate as well as it's geome, " whatever the hell 11 he means by geome. 12 U I think it means geometry but it's cut off. 13 .. A. That could be. 14 MR. JONES: What you have just done is 15 read the section handwritten? . 16 THE WITNESS: Yes. 17 A. In other words, he says that because the 18 fibers are curved they are less apt to penetrate deep into 19 the lung* and, therefore, less apt to cause disease in the 20 lung even though these curved fibers, when they are 21 injected into the animal, will produce cancers. 22 Q. -D id you,-- at that time in 1967, agree with 23 those statements or conclusions by Dr. Sayers? 24 A. I would agree with them now, so I imagine I 25 did at that time. ' KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES ' J*- (612) 922-1955,. 'V* 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 S 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 U. Would you also agree that around this same time you were also concerned that in fact the Calridia asbestos, because it was so fine, had a greater propensity to get into the small airways of the lungs than other ' asbestos fibers? question? MR. J0N23: ' Do you understand the A. I don't like the word propensity Q. Well, how about ability? A. How about possibility? Q. Let me rephrase the question and you -can answer it. Will you agree that you were concerned at around this time, 1967, that the Calridia asbestos fibers had a greater possibility of getting into the small airways of the lungs than other asbestos because they were so short, so fine? A. Yes, I would agree with that. Q. In fact, that was the reason that you had the toxicology report done by the Mellon Institute in 1966? A. That was a part of the reason. . Q. Now, again, do you recall approving any publication .by Dr, Ian Sayers or approving any reports of . Dr. Sayers for publication around 1967? A. I do not recall any such approval. Q. Now, you told us earlier that you did receive KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES . (612) U-*~ 3 4 5 6 7 B 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 a 9 20 21 22 23 24 25 copy of his 1967 report. published? Do you 'enow if that report was 'A. I have no idea. Q. Do you know if you approved that report for publication? . A. I have no idea. Q. Do you know if you would have had to have approved that report for publication? Let me rephrase that, Was your approval required before that report could be published? A* I would say that I would be asked for an opinion as to whether it should be published, but this opinion was not binding upon whether or not it was or was not published. Q. So would your role then be as more of a reviewer as opposed to the final authority as to whether it*s published or not? A. I think that is a fair way to put it. Q. I am going to show you what has been marked as Dernehl Deposition Exhibit 33 and ask you, first of all, did you review that before your deposition? A. .No._______ Q. it is? Can you review it and tell us if you know what MR. JONES: For the record, this is a - M.* KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES St (612) 922-1955:; v UV document dated April 23, 1967, to D. C. Willard from Bert Hurray. , A. This is a report from Bert Hurray, who was an ' industrial hygienist for the South Charleston plant on studies which were made on employees while they were installing Kaylo insulation and a recommendation that studies be continued to get more meaningful data. / Q. Do you remember being involved in any way in chat particular project? A. No, I do not. Q. On the last sentence of the latter it says, "It would be helpful to schedule -- " I am sorry, it talks about being kept informed of jobs pertaining to cutting, installing and removing Kaylo in order to be helpful to schedule the air sampling work. Does that indicate to you that air sampling work was being done at the South Charleston plant in '67? MR. JONES: Object to the form of the ; question. Dr. Dernehl has already said that he wasn't involved in the project. Go ahead and answer, if you can. A. Well, my answer would be that studies of this type were going-on-- in-the three major chemicals plants, Charleston, Institute and Texas City and that information of this type was sent up to my office for information only. Q. Now, were air sampling studies being done back ' . KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES (612) 922-1955 >_j : in 1967 at Charleston, Institute and Texas City? A.. Charleston, Institute, for sure. Texas City, l think, came later. .. Cj. ' viare they being done at Charleston and Institute m 1967 to see if workers ware being exposed to excessive amounts of asbestos? A. That's correct. Q. And these are Union Carbide employees? A. Those are Union Carbide employees. Q. Would it be fair to say that by 1967 the Union Carbide medical department had a concern about it's' employees being subjected to excessive amounts of asbestos on the job? A. Union Cr-.rbide had that concern long before 1967. Q. A. Q* 1947? Do you know when it first had that concern7 The first time we started using asbestos. Would that be as far back as when you began in A. Yes, that would be true because when I was at the plant level we were concerned about the insulators removing insulation and applying insulation and the way they were doing it and trying to see to it that they used appropriate respiratory protection while they were doing the work. ... ... -h .>; KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES _____ :_________ - ___________________________ \ v > Q. asbestos? And that s because that insulation contained A. That's correct. U. One of the things Union Carbide was doing from 1947 was taKing air sampling and air tests? A. They were not taking air samples in those early dates. That came later. Q. Do you know when that began? A. About the time when we got industrial hygienists in the plant, which would be in the early '60s. Q. Do you know when you began to take annual chest X-rays from your workers in the plant? A. We started that when we -- about 1941 at South Charleston, and we started it in 1947 in Texas City, *47 at Institute, and at all the other plants it was initiated when the plants started, came about. .......Q. Did you attend the 13th Annual Congress on Occupational Health at Brighton, England in 1975? A. No, I did not. - Q. Do you know if anyone from your medical department did? A. -- No, nobody did. . . Q. Do you know H. B. Rhodes? .. *4 . A. No, 1 do not. v . Q. Never heard that name? . KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES (6 1 2 ) 922-1 9 5 5 *;; 1 A. I may have heard it, but I don't recall it. 2 MR. JONES: We have been going about an j hour and a half, let's take a short break here. 4 (At this time a brief recess was taken.) 5 BY MR. 3ROWNSON: 6 Q. Doctor, before we took our break we were 7 talking about the International Congress on Occupational 8 Health meeting at Brighton, England in 1975. 9 A. Yes. Was that the International something on 10 Permanent Commission on Occupational Health? 11 Q* ^ don t know. But what I wanted to s*how you 12 was an exhibit marked 39 and ask you to take a look at that 13 and see if that helps you at all in recalling anything 14 about that? r 15 . ' ' MR. JONES: ,. ., v 1 ' For the record, this is a 16 memorandum dated September 29, 1975, from H. B. Rhodes to 17 R. E. Byrne, Junior, among others........ 18 (At this time the requested portion of the 19 transcript was -read aloud by the Court 20 Reporter.) 21 A. Not really. I seem to recall that there was a 22 meeting of the Permanent Commission and International 23 Association on Occupational Health, which was held in 24 Brighton, England, probably at about that time, i was a 25 member of that, but I did not go to England. . . 4 ' > KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES (612) 922-1955. ~ T IW 1 Q. Do you remember a conclusion coming out of 2 that meeting that the standard of two fibers per CC may ba J even too high'to prevent mesothelioma? 4 A. 1 do not remember that, no. 5 U .have you aver heard that said? 6 A. I don't recall whether I ever heard it said or 7 not. 8 Q. Do you know, have you ever heard of a Dr. 9 Steve Holmes? 10 A. No. ' 11 Q. Do you Know who ha is' ' 12 A. No. 13 Q. Now, earlier I had asked you some questions 14 about if Union Carbide did air testing in customer plants. 15 A. Yes. ' 16 Q. Do you know after the OSHA standard went into 17 effect in 1972 if Union Carbide offered that service to its 18 customers? 19 A. We did not. - 20 0. Okay. .21 A. To the best of my knowledge. 22 q . Do--you-- know who John L. Myers is? He was tha 23 marketing manager for the Calridia asbestos division at one . . -'a ' . . . 24 time. / - . .. ' . 25 A. I metMyers a few times, yes. : : .; . KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES . (612) 922-1955 . J .W ' ' Q. Would you be surprised if in 1974 Mr. Myers was-tuiling customers that ha would be happy to take hand or analyze air samples from their plant for asbestos dust? A. That was Mr. Myers' problem and not mine. It was not the type of thing that Union Carbide as such was doing. We did not want to intrude on customer's operations. Q. Do you know if in the 1970s such air sampling was being done by Union Carbide as a marketing tool to alleviate the fears of customers about asbestos dust? A. Not that I know of. MR. BR0WN30N: I guess that's ill the questions I have right now. I will let Mr. Polk ask some. MR. POLK: The record should reflect it's five minutes to 3:00. CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. POLK: . Q. Dr. Dernehl, I am going to ask you some questions and they are going-to be fairly direct and hopefully you will be able to respond in a fairly succinct way so we can get back to Minnesota today. I don't want to waive my right to-con-tinue this deposition in the event, - *. however, I am not able to finish. First of all, I want to tell you my name is Michael Polk. I represent the Plaintiffs in this case. . \..^V .. KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES , ' *(612) 922-1955 / Secondly, I want to establish your agreement with me that you will do your best to respond as succinctly as possible to fcne questions that I ask you. Will you agree to do that? A. I will try. Q. If there is anything that I ask you that you don't understand, please let me know and I will-be happy to clarify the question. First of all, would you agree with this general proposition that Union Carbide, as a corporate entity, as far as you know was well aware of hazards associated with asbestos at the time that you arrived in 1947? ' MR. JONES: Object to the legal characterization "corporate knowledge,"but go ahead and .answer. .` : ' " / .. ' \ A. There were people in the corporate medical department that were aware of health hazards from asbestos. Q. If you know, would you agree with this, that the knowledge possessed by the Union Carbide medical department, as of 1947, went"back into the 1930s? A. Yes. Q. And would you agree that the basis for the knowledge that was within Union Carbide's possession as of *. 1947 was based at least in part on a review of medical literature? A. Yes. ' .. . KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES .. (612) 922-1955 / '' 7 :\ M . - u-V- 1 Q. And would you also agree that Union Carbide, 2 in its medical department as of 1947, had the capability of 3 doing in-depth literature searches? 4 A. I don't think so. We didn't have time. 5 0. Aould you agree that at some time subsequent 6 to 1947 Union Carbide had the ability and the resources to 7 do in-depth medical searches, that is medical literature 3 searches? * 9 A. Union Carbide used their Mellon fellowship to 10 carry out some in-depth researches on certain products ' 11 rather than having this done by the medical department 12 itself. .. 13 Q. Let me rephrase it then. Did Union Carbide 14 have the ability and resources to draw on outside 15 organizations to conduct in-depth medical literature 16 searches at some time subsequent to 1947? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. Did Union Carbide's medical department at any 19 time have access to computerized medical literature - 20 searches? 21 A. Through Mellon Institute, yes. , : . . - - ; 22 Q. Now, at what point, in your opinion, 23 subsequent to 1947, did Union Carbide have the ability and 24 resources to conduct in-depth medical literature searches? 25 A.. I would say in the late '50s and early '60s :. W KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES (612) 9 2 2 - 1 ^ ^ ^ ^ 1 vmen the Mellon Institute staff was expanded to the point 2 tnac they could put some people on this sort of search. J Q* This is almost the same kind of question that 4 I asxed you earlier but it's a little bit different. Did 5 the knowledge that Union Carbide's medical department had with reference to asbestos hazards, was that knowledge in 7 1947 solely based on tne literature? 8 A. In 1947, yes. 9 0. And when, in your opinion, was the first time 10 that Union Carbide's medical department had knowledge of 11 asbestos hazards that was not based solely on medical 12 literature? 13 A. I can't answer that question because it's 14 impossible to eliminate the medical literature source from 15 other sources of information. 16 Q. Okay. 17 A. They are intertwined. 18 Q. I understand what you are saying. Let me ask 19 you this. When was the first time, in your opinion, that 20 the Union Carbide medical department had information that 21 they gathered or had gathered at their direction concerning 22 the hazards of asbestos that were not contained within 23 medical literature? 24 A. I would say at the time that we did the animal 25 studies at Mellon.Institute. KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES V....... -A ' (612) 922-1955 " ^ 1 Q. In 1966? A. Whatever year it was. - Q. Would you agree with this, that Union Carbide gained some knowledge in the early 1960s, specifically 1961 and 1962, by virtue of their own in-plant experience in Nest Virginia? A. What we gained at that time was information on the dust concentrations that were present during certain manufacturing operations and maintenance operations in the plant. ' Q. Now, let me ask you this, I have information 12 that indicates that you attended an IHF meeting in 1955. 13 First of all, did you regularly attend IHF meetings? ( 14 A. I wouldn't say regularly. I attended a number 15 of them. 16 ' Q* Would you agree that Union Carbide was a 17 founding member of IHF? 18 A. I would. 18 Q. And were you ever on th e 'board of directors.of 20 IHF? 21 A. I don't think so. - 22 Q. Were you ever an officer of IHF? 23 A. No. 24 Q. And IHF was an organization that was begun 25 when? .. KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES (612) 922-1955 - > .. ..v " A. I really don't remember. Q. - Wnat does IHF stand for? A. Industrial Hygiene Foundation. Q. And did you start attending meetings in the 1940s, that is after 1947? A. I really don't recall, but I doubt that I did. Q. And why is it that you doubt that' A. Because as a plant medical director we didn't do much traveling. Q. When specifically in 1955 were you transferred to New York from the Texas City plant? A. Officially July 1. I went then to New York for about a week and then I spent a month in Pittsburgh going through the records of Dr. A.G. Kramer, who was the medical director of the chemicals operations prior to the time that I took over in 1955. Q. Would it make sense to you that you would have attended the IHF 20th Annual Meeting held in November of 1955 in Pittsburgh? A. 1 really can't say, but I might have. Q. Well, I think the gist of my question is based on the position that you held as of November of 1955, would it make sense to you that you would have or may have attended? * A. I might have attended, yes. KIRBY A. KENNEDY & -ASSOCIATES (612) 922-1955 ' \ 1 Q. I assume that you don't have a specific recollection one way or another? A. That is correct. I know this goes back a ways, but did you ever have any discussions with the president of Johns-Manville Corporation at any time during your caraer with Union Carbide? A. ' ' ` Wot to the best of my knowledge. I don't even know who the president of Johns-Manville was or is. Q. You don't recognize the name then A. R. Fischer at all? ' . A. No way. 13 Q. And when you came on board in 1947, it's my 14 understanding that you personally knew that asbestos could 15 cause asbestosis? 15 ' A. That's correct. 17 Q. And you gained that knowledge from what, your 18 medical education? 19 A. That's correct. * 20 Q. At the University of Wisconsin? 21 A. That's correct. 22 Q. And you understood when you came on board with 23 Union Carbide in 1947 that asbestosis could be fatal? 24 A. That's correct. " . 25 Q.- And you also knew that in 1947 asbestos was a KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES (612) 922-1955 :*' ___ ,.< r IO- 1 2 3 w 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 progressiva disease, is that true? .. A * correct. Asbestosis was a progressiva disease, that's . .% . Q. And you also, I assunte, had knowledge in 1947 that asbastosis was in part related to the dosage that one inhaled or ingested? A. That one inhaled, not ingested. nothing to do with swallowing. It has Q. I guess in terms of asbestosis you are absolutely correct,1 stand corrected. Now, did you gain any knowledge whatsoever, be it by fact or theory, that asbestos had a propensity to set up a reaction that could lead to cancer? A. This came to my attention in the early '60s and prior to that I had no knowledge of this. Q. So it's your testimony today that at no time prior to the early '60s did you evan have a hint that asbestos could cause cancer? A. That's correct. ? v' Q. Do you know a Dr. Henshaw,-Corwin Henshaw? A. I know the name. I don't recall that I have over met the man. 0. Do you have any recollection of any textbooks that you have seen written by Dr. Corwin Henshaw? A. I have not seen any. KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES " (612) 922-1955 -- 4^1 : V .tS IP c c I iM: Q. You took two years of trial residency in Preventive Medicine and Internal Medicine, is that right7 A. That's correct. L Q. Were you ever board certified in any specialty7 A. I an board certified in the specialty of Occupational Medicine. Q. When did you become first board certified7 A. In 1955. Q. To your knowledge is there any board certification or was there ever any board certification for Preventive Medicine? . A. Yes, the subspecialty ofOccupational Medicine is -- - the certification in occupational medicine is a subspecialty under the 3oard of Preventive Medicine- Q. What is your definition of preventative medicine? A. Preventive medicine is that science of medicine which is devoted to the prevention of illness and disease in human beings. ' ' - Q. And if a person is board certified in 1955 in Occupational Medicine, that I assume would include the specialty of Preventive Medicine, is that-true? A. That was a part of it, yes. Q. Did you ever study, in connection with your '* -4' medical training, industrial hygiene? KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES cr . ' * (612) 922-1955 . , - h.< Ci No, I did not. * Was there a board certification for .the specialty of toxicology in 1955? , A. There was not. - Q. And since that time, to your knowledge, is enere such a board certification? A. I am not sure. I think there may be. c * Q. When you came on board with Union Carbide in 1947, did Union Carbide have an industrial hygiene department? . A. In *47? . Q- In 1947. A. No, they did not. a. And subsequent thereto they did establish such a department, didn't they? ' A. Yes, they did. Q. When did Union Carbide first establish it's industrially hygiene department? A. Well, if one man is considered a department.I would say about 1953. Q. And the one man you are speaking of, that wouldn't have been Mr. Peele, would it? A. No, that was Mr. Paul McDaniel. Q. Nov/, since 1953, taking it up to 197 9 -when you retired from Union Carbide, would you agree that the *: */.*' .. ~ KIRBY A. KENNEDY fit ASSOCIATES " (612) 922-1955 ... . ... industrial hygiene department grew by leaps and bounds? . MR. JONES: I will object to the form of che question. MR. POLK: He understnds. the question. He is thinking about it. A. The corporate industrial hygiene department grew from one man to about six men and, in addition to that, . we had an industrial hygienist and in some instances two industrial hygienists at three plant locations. Q. Now, v/ould you agree that between 1953 and 1959 or *79 that the industrial hygiene department worked in tandum with the medical department of Union Carbide? A. I would say yes. Q. In your opinion, as an associate medical director at Union Carbide, did there exist incontrovertible evidence as of June 1967 that asbestos could cause mesothelioma? A. Clarify a word for me. Did you say incontrovertible? Q. Incontrovertible or, if you prefer, uncontrovertible, if there is such a word. MR. GOLDBERG* Evidence that you can't controvert. A. I would not consider in 1967 that it was incontrovertible.. In 1967 there was a growing probability " _ KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES - ; : - (612) 922-1955 ' , !------ 107 |H|,, i #1 2 Ml ( 2 f 1 '" 3 ill I " 4 :1 5 ~J3k 6 JP 1 7 1 I a 11 * 1 10 It I il ,,y?d I 12 c iM l l v 13 S I 14 J 1 15 l^l (~ e> W l 17 all 13 W1 19 -S I 20 :H 1 21 f I 22 I 23 1 , 24 11 ^ *'25 that there vas a relationship between asbestos .ind mesothelioma# but there was evidence coming up at intervals . ~\ . " " which suggested that this might not be the case. y. As you sit here today, do you believe that it J.S incontrovertible that asbestos can cause mesothelioma? A. I think -- Counsel. MR. JONES: Any kind of asbestos? ' HR. POLK: That's what the question was, A. I think that mesothelioma -- I mean that asbestos can cause mesothelioma. . " Q. And that that proposition, in your opinion as you sit here today, is incontrovertible? . I think that is true of some cases. Not all j cases are caused by asbestos. Q. That's not the question though. The question is is it, in your opinion as you sit here today, incontrovertible that asbestos can cause mesothelioma? , A. Yes. " . i Q. :!ow, tell me the period of time or the date or the year, as bast as you can between 1967 and today*s dates when you formulated in your own mind that it was incontrovertible that asbestos can cause mesothelioma? A. I would say in the early '70s. "* ' Q. Now, ,follow that up with me, if you will, and & 1 : KIRBY A. KENNEDY ASSOCIATES 7/ - nV '*V- tell me what the basis is that you rely upon or relied upon then to come to that conclusion? A. The epidemiological studies which were dona on various work groups which -- reliable epidemiological . studies on various work groups which demonstrated a statistical association between asbestos exposure and mesothelioma. ' 4 Q. And in your opinion was there an absence of statistical data connecting asbestos to mesothelioma prior to that time? A. There was an absence of valid epidemiological studies. The great majority of studies which had been done ' ' . A at that time had some serious flaws which raised some question as to the validity of the conclusions that were ' ; - . . reached. Q. Tell me specifically what you are relying upon i or what you relied upon in coming to that the conclusion that those studies were invalid? A. One of them was that they failed to take into account the question of smoking. Q. Vihat I am asking you is to identify the studies that you reviewed that led you to the conclusion? A. I really can't recall what the spacific studies were that led to those conclusions. Q., Fair enough. Am I to take it, however, from . .. . .. . , . . ^ ~ : ' KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES :** - ' (612) 922-1955^ X your testimony today that you in fact personally reviewed 2 certain studies regarding `the connection between asbestos 3 and mesothelioma prior to 1967? x 4 A. I don't believe that any of those types of 5 studies really existed prior to 1967. Prior to 1967 we 6 were in a position where people were counting cases of 7 mesothelioma and looking at exposure to asbestos and making . 8 an association which might or might not have been valid. 9 Q. Did you at that time consider those cases to 10 be solely case studies as opposed to the epidemiological 11 studies that you -- ' . 12 A. I believe, yes, that they were case type 13 studies. ' ' " ' "' ' - '" : ' 14 3. You taught Occupational Medicine for five 15 years, correct? 16 A. Well, more than that. I continued teaching 17 Occupational Medicine until the day I retired. When I left 18 the University I was given a visiting lectureship at tha 19 University and then Saylor Medical College in Houston asked 20 me to teach Occupational Medicine for them until 1955. 21 When I transferred to New York, I was given the title of 22 clinical assistant professor of Occupational Medicine by 23 New York University. I taught there several times a year 24 from 1955 until my retirement until 1979. ' 25 Q. Do you have anyone in mind that you consider KIRBY A. KENNEDY &, ASSOCIATES . .. (612) 922-1955 ^ to be the, quota unquote, "Father of Occupational Medicine"' A. I guess you would have to go back to that venerable character known as Urfcano Pozzani. . Q. And did you rely on any particular occupational medicine text in you: academic endeavors when you were teaching? A. Thare was one, I can't remember his nama, but it was -- I can't really remember the name of the text. Q. You did in fact, however, utilize a textbook for the teaching of occupational medicine, is that right' A. There was such a text, yes, and we used it. Sut as much as anything else we researched the literature and used information from the literature. Q. You have used the word hazard on several occasions when you have been testifying here. Can you define the word hazard as you have used it? A. Hazard would be the probability of a material causing harm under given conditions of exposure. Q. Let me be a little bit more specific now than I was earlier. Is this a true statement, that in 1947 when you came on board at Union Carbide you understood chrysotile asbestos fiber could cause asbestosis, is that true? . ' A. That's correct. Q And have you personally participated or XIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES (612) 922-1955 ...,,if\" T - V ' 1 directed to be done, participated in or directed to be done, any studies of any nature whatsoever for the purpose of | determining the toxicity of chrysotile'asbestos fiber when compared to other types? 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 A. I-have not participated in any studies which compared the types of chrysotile toxicity to the toxicity of other asbestos fibers, Q. Can you tell me up to 1979 when you retired whether you have any information at all that would indicate that Union Carbide ever did a study or commissioned a study for determining the toxicity of chrysotile asbestos fiber as compared to another type of fiber? A. Not that I know of. Q. And, furthermore, can you tell me, up to 1979 when you retired, whether or not Union Carbide ever did any kind of studies whatsoever concerning the carcinogenicity of Chrysotile asbestos? A. Not that I know of. Q. Did you have any involvement with Union Carbideas a consulting physician after 1979? A. I had a contract with Union Carbide from 1979 to 1982, at which time-the contract lapsed and anything i have done since then has been as an individual contractor. 24 Q. Have you served Union Carbide as an 25 independent contractor since 1982? KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES TJ" (612) 922-1955 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. And I don't want to be repetitious, but have 3 you ever served for Union^Carbide as an independent ..-t . contractor since 1932 with reference to anything having 5 anything to do with asbestos? 6 A. Only the one case that I indicated early on in 7 which I was asked to make a deposition and for various a reasons it fell through. 9 Q. Nov;, were you aware of any Worker's 10 Compensation claims being asserted by workers of Union ' 11 Carbide for asbestos related diseases of any kind prior to 12 1970? 13 A. 14 , Q. ....... No, I am not. . How about after 1970? ... 15 A. I believe there were a couple of cases of 16 alleged asbestosis at Institute in Charleston from the 17 period 1970 until the time I retired. Just how many there 13 were I don't recall. 19 Q. Do you profess Any expertise in the area of 20 air sampling? 21 A. No. 22 q . _p q ynn understand the concept of time weighted 23 average? 4 24 A. I think so. ` 25 Q. Do you understand the concept of total KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES (612) 922-1955 ' V ^ - U the sales recoras indicating Bakelite sales to Conwed? You 2 nave them. There are all kinds of sales of Bakelite to 3 Conwed. ' 4 MR. JONES: Do you have them? 5 MR. POLK: I don't know if I have them 5 with me. I will be happy to share it with you when I get 7 back. I will warrant that to you on the record, that . <f S 3akelite was sold to Conwed. 9 10 11 A. 12 Q. 13 studies c MR. LAURA: When? MR. POLK: Between 1954 and 1963. 14 A. 15 Q. 16 ' A. 17 It's used 18 fixtures 19 that type 20 Q. 21 asbestos? 22 A. Hot to the best of my knowledge. 23 Q. So it would be your opinion, as you sit here 24 today, thi 25 asbestos?. KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES t?. ... - (612) 922-1955/ 1 concentration in terms of dust studies? 2 A. Well, I don't really k n o w w hat you m ean by 3 total concentration. 4 Q. How about just the word concentration? 5 A. Do I u n d e r s t a n d the m e a n i n g of the term 6 concentration? 7 Q. Yes. 8 A. Yes. ` 9 Q. As t h e a s s o c i a t e m e d i c a l d i r e c t o r d i d y o u h a v e 10 any interfacing, if you will, with any other manufacturers 11 of asbestos or asbestos-containing products? ' 12 A. No. 13 Q. Did yo u have an y relationship with a Dr. 14 Lewinsohn at Raybestos Manhattan at any time? 15 A. No. 16 Q. Did you share correspondence with other 17 asbestos manufacturers? 18 A. No. 19 Q. Do you know what Bakelite is? . 20 A. Yes. ' .. 21 .. Q. Did you ever participate in any kind of 22 studies concerning Bakelite? 23 24 relevancy. MR. JONES: Object on the grounds of 25 MR. POLK: Do you want me to show you ' .a . - __ .. KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES - (612) 922-1955 .. H ..... 2 J 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A. It would be my opinion that the phenol formaldehyde resinwhich composed Bakelite did not contain asbestos. It would b * possible that there might be some varieties of asbestos that -- I mean soma varieties of Bakelite that had asbestos added to them. I don't know about that. Bakelite. "Q* I don't know all of the product breakdowns of . ( . 1 will read you an answer to Union Carbide's interrogatories. It says "Bakelite was a compounded mixture of phenolic resin, tetramine, lubricant and fillers, one of which was chrysotila asbestos." ' MR. JONES: Identify the exhibit. A. That might be one particular product of the Bakelite. For example, we sold Bakelite under something like BX3 400. This might have been 3KS 780. Q. Well, was Bakelite marketed by Union Carbide in granular form? A. Yes. MR. JONES: Can you identify the -- . MR. POLK: No. You have them. I don't think I am obligated to identify the sources. - MR. LAURA: Sure you are. If you are reading from a document at a deposition you have to let us know what it is. . MR. POLK: I wasn't reading from a KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES ,, * ' (612) 922-1955 . .if ", 1 document. MR. LAURA: I said if you are readinq 3 from a document we are entitled to know. 4 I will move to strike the 5 xast excnange on the basis of what he was reading was not identified. ' 7 BY MR. POLK: 3 Q. Then, I will go through it without reading* 9 from the document. Doctor, was Bakelite marketed in 10 granular form? . 11 A. Yas. . 12 Q. Doctor, was there a single purpose for the 13 drafting of the Asbestos Toxicology Report? 14 A. A single purpose? ... 4 15 Q. Yes. That would be a yes or a no answer, X 16 think. 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. And what was the singular purpose for the 19 Asbestos Toxicology Report? ' 20 ; A. A request on the part of the marketing people 21 for such a statement. 22 Q. And are you able to tell us the degree of 23 involvement that you had with the drafting of the Asbestos 24 Toxicology Report in comparison to Dr. Lane? . 25 A.* I can't remember the details of something like v * - i' KIRBY A . KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES (612) 922-1955' >,f chat Q. Now, to the best of your recollection was the disease of mesothelioma ever included in any asbestos . ' . L- toxicology report which came from you or your department"7 A. I really couldn't answer that. I have no -- T don't have the document to look at, the host of documents, to see whether we e^er used the term mesothelioma or not. """ . . : . - - I am afraid I can't answer your question. ' Q. Vere asbestos toxicology reports reviewed on any time interval basis; in other words, were they reviewed i ' annually or more often than that for any purpose? A. reports? Q. Are you talking about Union Carbide toxicology That's correct. A. I don't believe that they were on any regular review basis. Q. Would you agree that as of 1967 you were knowledgeable that there was not a particular safe dose of asbestos for the development of mesothelioma? A. No, I don't know that today. s3. Maybe I should rephrase that. Did you have knowledge in 1967 that the development of mesothelioma from exposure to asbestos could occur with less dosage than that needed to produce asbestosis? ' A.- No, I did not know that. I " :" KIRBY A. KENNEDY fit ASSOCIATES ^ - (612) 922-1955 v * ~ ! 1 Did you nave any knowledges or idea of that? 2 A. I had an opinion that that might be the case. 3 Q. Ana where did that opinion that you formulated 4 in 1'967 come . from*? . ' 5 A. That's hard to say. i would say that it was 6 just a judgmental decision on my part at that time.L 7 Q. Well, would you agree with me that an opinion 3 of that nature formulated at that time would have needed 9 some basis? 10 A. Not necessarily. . 11 Q. Did that just pop into your mind then' 12 A. It's one of these things that when you pull 13 off something like this why you are concerned about a . 14 disease like mesothelioma and it appears to ybu that a 15 level of five particles per cubic foot might not be low 16 enough to protect against a sarious disease like 17 mesothelioma. 13 Q. And, as I understand it, you found Mr. Sayers 19 1967 report to be reasonably accurate,' is that correct? -I 20 will show you the document if you would like, but I will 21 warrant to you that that's what your letter to Dr. Hall 22 say s . 2 J A. Yes, i remember the letter. 24 Q. All right. 25 A. Yes, I would say that's probably true. KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES iv (612) 922-1955 v* /i . . '. tv* i Q . And without looking at Mr. Sayers1 report, as you sit-here today, do you have a recollection as to whether Mr. Sayers' report addressed the disease of mesothelioma? ' A. My recollection is that it did. G. And do you recollect, as you sit here today L without reviewing your letter of June of 1967, whether or not that letter I take it it's the letter, let me make sure, whether that draws upon Mr. Sayers' report, that is the contents of the report? MR. JONES: I will object. like to look at the letter again If you would A. I have looked at so many documents I ara not sure what you are talking about. i Q. Well, I am talking specifically about the letter that you wrote to Dr. Hall which I think you saw before your deposition here today, it's your June '67 letter to Dr. Hall? ` ... BY MR. POLK: MR. JONES: Dernehi Exhibit 33. - G Your Counsel has given you a copy of the letter, has he not? A. Yes. Q. Now, my question to you is this, as you are sitting there in your chair right now reviewing the letter KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES o (612) 922-1955 " 1 uo you have any recollection of drawing upon Mr. Sayers' 2 report in drafting the contents of Exhibit 33' 3 A. Not really. 4 Q. And setting aside the letter foij a moment, do 5 you have any recollection of drafting any documents of any 6 kind, Doctor, wherein you relied upon the contents of Mr. 7 Sayers' report? 8 A. No, I do no. recall such a document. 9 Q. Did you have any input -- I think you talked 10 in your testimony about some kind of warning that 11 was put on to the containers of asbestos, do you recall 12 that? ' - 13 ( 14 A. Right. Q. What kind of involvement did you have in that 15 issue? ' 16 A. All of the products that Union Carbide sold 17 had some sort of a lable on it. Union Carbide had what 18 they called a label committee, ,it was a part of the 19 chemicals and plastics division but it acted as a label . 20 committee for the whole corporation. The label committee 21 was comprises of the medical department, law department, 22 transportation, marketing and fire and safety protection 23 and chemical reactivity groups and when somebody had a 24 product that they wanted to market they submitted a request 25 for a label to the label committee. KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES (612) 922-1955? 1 Q. Did tha medical department have any 2 involvement with the label committee? 3 A. Yes. 4. o. Did you personally? 5 A. Yes. ' ' ' 6 Q . Ware you a member of tha label committee? 7 A Yes. 6 Q. Were you a member of the label committee * 9 between 1963 and 1979? 10 A. I was a member of the label committee from 11 1955 until 1973 whan I withdrew from that activity. 12 .....a. Did tna label committee keep minutes? 13 A. Yes. 14 a. Wa3 there a secretary to that committee? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. Who was the secretary of the labeling 17 community bstv/een 1965 and about 1975? ^ 18 ' " " A. I don't know about as early as *65. I know at 19 *75 a gentl eman by the name of Jim Chatsworth was the 20 secretary. 21 <3* .tfhat position or what dapartment would he have 22 come from? 23 A. . >. ... ,,,V He was in, I am not sure", shipping, I think, 24 in South Charleston. . 25 Q. When.was the first time that labeling of .v * 'v# '. KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES (612) 922-1955 asbestos products was discussed in the labeling committee? A. I have no recollection. Q. Well, w j s it ever discussed? A. 'Yes. Q. And did you make recommendations from a mauical toxicology standpoint concerning the labeling of the asbestos? A. Yes. Q. And were those recommendations geared towards the wording of the label? ' A. Yes. - Q. , And did you actually, on your own behalf or yourself, draft the language? ; A. I probably drafted the language and submitted it to the label committee as a whole for discussion. Q. Now, was the draft of the label for the asbestos that you did, whenever that was done, was that adopted by the committee? * A. Oh, gee, it might/have been adopted with some minor revision?. I really can't answer that. Q. Did you at any time or anyone from your department a~t any-- time-make a suggestion to the labeling - ' committee that notification of potential cancers be '. * Vi included on a label? A. It was discussed. . . ~ ' ~~ KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES . (612) 922-1955.'' " . -Vi ----------------------------------------- -- ___ - _________________ 1 Q And it was ultimately rejected, is that right? 2 A. I don't recall the axact wording v;hich was 3 ultimately used. * 4 2. V/ell, Doctor, I am just asking you if the use 5 of tna word cancer was rejected by the committee, that's 6 all. 7 A. Yes; but I think that they selected some 8 alternative language and I was trying to remember what it 9 was. 10 Q. Whenever the labeling committee met and 11 whenever these discussions were going on, and I understand 12 that you can't recall the time, can you tell me this, were 13 discussions concerning the labeling of asbestos produced by 14 Union Carbide, were those discussions ongoing over the t 15 years? 16 A. They were from the standpoint that there were 17 alterations in the product over the years which resulted in 18 the need for a new label. . 19 Q. And what alterations were made to the product 20 that required that? .21 A. Well, for one thing, they prepared a so-called 22 coated product,-- which--ended up on the basis of all 23 acceptable knowledge at that day and time as having no 24 carcinogenic hazard and it was a product which, for example, 25 was exempt under the OSHA regulations. So that required a KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES (612) 922-1955 V <* change in labeling. 0. Would you agree with me on this, that you knew m *947 that asbestos could cause serious bodily harm? A. I knew that asbestos, when inhaled in excessive quantities, could produce the disease asbestosis. Q. In 1947 when you held that opinion, what was your definition of excessive quantities? A. Anything in excess of ten particles per cubic foot greater than ten microns in length. Q. And, Doctor, as far as the Union Carbide asbestos is concerned, can you tell me how many particles per cubic foot one needs to be able to see it? A. I am not sure I can do that. ( Did you ever learn, while you were the associate medical director, that there needed to be a certain number of Coalinga or Calridia fibers in a cubic foot of air before it was visible? A. That was outside of my area of knowledge or competence to judge. _ Q. Would you have been interested in knowing information from the Union Carbide industrial hygiene department that unless there were more than ten particles per cubic foot you couldn't even see the stuff? . W c MR. JONES: Object to the question as calling for speculation. .. * T KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES (612) 922-1955 C p f M . HraBgjp!' ' I . MR. POLK: I am asking if he would heva 2 igpp?rf'.r;'; 3 frty\ 4 %- .... V 5 6 7 a been 'interested in knowing that information when ha was the . associate medical director. A. Mot particularly. We had industrial hygienists that worried about that particular aspect. 0 So you wouldn't have nacessarily been interested in knowing that even in your capacity as being on the labeling committee? 3 A. That's right. 10 . MR. JONES: I will object to the 11 question as argumentative. Go ahead. . 12 BY .-1R. POLK: , i3 Q* In your opinion, as a .member of the labeling 14 committee for several years, do you personally feel that it 15 does any good to warn a user of Union Carbide asbestos 16 fiber to not breathe dust that they can't see? 17 MR. JONES: Object to that on the basis 18 it calls for speculation. It's beyond the witness's stated 19 expertise. Go ahead and answer in you can. Also, as to 20 the form of the question as to the words whether it does 21 any good being vague and ambiguous. Go ahead and answer. 22 i A. -- Yes,-- because you can't see a gas but you warn 23 people about breathing gas. So it's the same sort of a 24 . 25 warning. Q. . / . And to your knowledge was the word cancer ever ' . . ` KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES -T-* (612) 9 2 2 - 1 9 5 5 ^ 7 , , ^ . 1 used by Union Carbide in connection with its asbestos 2 products labeling? 3 A. The labeling I don't recall. 4I Q. 'What is the average length of a Calidria 5 asbestos fiber? 6 A. Average length is somewhere under five microns, 7 as I recall. 8 Q. And you certainly are familiar with the 9 standards that have been used by industrial hygienists for 10 a long time as far as the counting of asbestos fibers I 11 assume, is that true? - 12 A. I am familiar that they count them. I don't 13 know exactly how they do it. That's their business. 14 Q. Have you ever had an occasion to do any 15 counting under a microscope of a filter containing asbestos 16 fiber? 17 A. No, I have not. 18 -Q Do you know what the aspect ratio is for a 19 particular fiber to be counted as an asbestos fiber? 20 A. I don't know what you are talking about. 21 Q. I an going to show you what I have marked as 22 Plaintiff'sExhibit-- 8S24. ;i will represent to you it's the ' %. * ' 23 September 1, 1972 material data safety sheet which you saw 24 before, and I think you indicated that it was incomplete 25 because it didn't have another page connected to it. I KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES ^ (612) 922-1955. , , ~ -- -- -----------------------------------^ B:' 1 R. 2 W^f H h K ''*" H^> j uon'c think there was any follow up on that, would you take a look ut what I have here and tell me if the second paga than is now connected to the first page makes that document complete? in EIf i|rH c c A. ihat now makes tne document complete. Q. And, again, I don't want to be repetitious, 7 but as I recall your testimony, while you had involvement 3 with the labeling committee, you didn't have any 9 involvement in the drafting of material safety data sheets? 10 A. do, that s not true. I did not have any 11 particular input into drafting this material safety data 12 sheet. . .- 13 14 15 16 17 13 19 20 . 21 22 2 J 24 25 Q. Can you answer this, with the document you have got in your hand, the September 1, 1972 sheet, 'would there have been anybody in the medical department that would have had input other than yourself? A. If there was medical input in it, it came from j Or. Lane. ' ' j " | Q. When did Dr. Lana, by the way, leave Union Carbide? A. Gee, I am not sure. I would say probably '83. --------- HR. JONES: Do you mind if we mark that? MR. POLK: Go ahead, sure. A ' (At this time DERNEHL Deposition Exhibit 46 was marked for identification by the . ' *- . ' *:'1 ' KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES (612) 922-1955 . . r *U , -T0i:,v 1 Court Reporter.) 2 MR. -JONES: Dr. Dernehl, what has now 3 been irked as Dernahl Exhibit 46, t h n f e the aterial 4 safety data sheet that you were just talking about? .: THE WITNESS: Yes. ` 3Y MR. POLK: i-lR. JONES: Thank you. Q. Would you agree with this, that as of 1960 Union Carbide had experts within it's employ to test ambient air levels for asbestos? MR. JONES: Object to the form of the question. Test, you mean the capability of t e s t i n g ? .. BY MR. POLK:.... Q. Do you not understand that question? 1 A. Yes, we had experts who were capable of making determinations of air concentrations. 0. And would you also agree that as of 1960 Union Carbide had the equipment within it's possession to -test ambient air levels for asbestos? A. At some locations. Q. And would you also agree that as of 1960 Union Carbide h a d e m p l o y experts who could evaluate the testing for purposes of determining those levels? A. Yes. . Q. And in your opinion would Union Carbide's KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES (612) 922-19515 . t \ X expertise in the testing of embient tir levels m d the 2 counting of asbestos fibers, would that expartiss have 3 gotten better or worse between 1960 and 1972? 4 MR. JONES: Object on leek of foundation 5 You cun answer, if you can. ' o BY MR. POLK: 7 Q. In your opinion? 8 A * N o * Ifc would have improved because, for one 9 thing, the technology of sampling and of identification had 10 improved. . 11 Q. And in your opinion, if you have one, is there 12 any expertise required for the counting of asbestos fibers 13 in the ambient air? 14 A. -Yes. - ^ .... . 15 Q. Can you categorize the degree of expertise 16 tnat in your opinion i3 necessary for that to be done? 17 A. No, I can't do that. 18 Q. And are you familiar with any kind of training 19 program offered by Union Carbide concerning the testing of 20 ambient air levels for asbestos that were offered to any 21 personnel within the employ of Union Carbide at any time? 22 A. -- I-- raa-Lly--have no reiiable knowledge in that 23 degree on that question. 24 Q. You were apparently shown some documents last 25 night when you met with your attorneys from Union Carbide, KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES (612) 922-19^5./-,,;. ,7;^; is that right? Right. .. a. A. Are you represented here todry? Am I represented here today? Q. Yes, by an attorney. A. Two of them. Q. Maybe even three of them? A. Maybe aven three. I forgot about him. Q. Did you retain these attorneys la3t night? A. No. Q. Other than the document, which I believe consists of the letter that you wrote to Dr. Hall in 67 -- A. Yes. Q. I want to know each and- every document that you reviewed last night with your attorneys. A. That is the only document we looked at. a When you left Union Carbide in 1979, did you take any documents with you?,, A. I did not. Q. And who took your position, if anyone, in 1979? A. i don't think anybody took my position. Q. And I want to confirm with you that I have a correct understanding of your prior testimony, correct me i' .4.> *,,. .**. KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES _. M (612) 922-1955 . ** / 1 .vi.v-.i-''`v.s>.w*<; .. * 1 2 j 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 ii I M *ro,,g, that In the 1940, you recognised a concern in the asbestos area relating to insulators using asbestos, is that'true?' .. A. That's correct. C. Ana the reason that you recognised that at cnat time was because insulators in the field were manipulating, sawing, and doing other things in the field with asbestos containing pipe insulation, block insulation and that sort of thing, is that right? A. That's correct. Q. And, Doctor, do you understand or have any knowledge concerning whether or not asbestos is an ingredient in gasket type products? A. yes. My knowledge is that it is in some gaskets, 16 Q. Do you have any knowledge from any source .17 whatsoever that would indicate to you whether or not the 18 asbestos within gasket type products is a potential hazard? 19 A. it is a hazard -in certain types of gaskets. :20 Q* nias Union Carbide, to your knowledge, ever a .21 producer of any asbestos-containing gaskets or packing 22 material? -------:____ 22 A. Not that I know of. 24 Q. Do you have an opinion as to whether or not 25 in-place asbestos-containing insulation products such as KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES 4. (612) 922-1955 ' 1 A. In 1967? 2 Q* That's correct. 3 A. No, we did not know that at that time. 4 Q. And did your knowledge concerning the 5 synergistic effect between cigarette siroks and lung cancer 5 arise in the early '70s? 7 MR. BROWNSON: You had better rephrase 8 that, Hike. You mean cigarette smoking and asbestos? 9 3Y MR. POLKs 10 Q. I am sorry, cigarette smoking and asbestos, 11 did that knowledge come to you in the early 1IQs'* ' 12 A. I would say yes. 13 Q. Finally, with reference to the labeling 14 committee, can you tell me what criteria was used by the 15 committee in dealing where asbestos labeling? 16 A. At the time that the first asbestos lables 17 were applied to the bags. 16 Q. May I interrupt you there? When was that? 19 You don't remember? \ ' . 20 A. I am sure I do n 't know. It would probably be 21 in the aarly '60s when we first started shipping asbestos. 22 Q* Why do you say it would probably be in the 23 early '60s when you first started shipping? 24 A. Because that's when I think they probably 25 started shipping.. ' KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES ,.,v ' (612) 922-1955 r'v *..... * -r >%* 1 2 4 5 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q. Does that necessarily mean then in the airly oOs when you started shipping you had the knowledge to Pu the warning on the bag? A. We put a warning on the bag. Q. When you started shipping from the King City plant in the early '60s? A. To the best of my knowledge that bag would have had soma sort of a warning. Now, I must admit there is a possibility -- there is a possibility that the early shipments for tne first year or so may have been made without a label but it was not done without the label committee's .knowledge or approval. Q. They kind of snuck them out? question. ' : ' HR. JONES: ' Object to the form of the '" " ' : / . . BY HR. POLK: Q. I am just kidding. You think it was about a yea.: or so after that that you believed to the best of your recollection that a warning label was put on the asbestos bags? A. To the best of my recollection and my expectation that would have been the case at that time we took into consideration what was known about asbestos, what was known about Coalinga asbestos as compared to the long fiber asbestos that was marketed by Johns-Manville and by KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES (612) 922-1955 ' ' 1 th. Canadian operations and the belief on the part of many 2 people that only long fiber asbestos caused asbestosis, and 3 because of that the label on the initial Coalings shipments 4 was probably a mild label. 5 Q. Saying something like what, don't breathe it? 6 A. Avoid breathing dust, a simple sort of a thing. 7 Q. Okay. 3 A. .subsequently, as we learned more about it, I 9 am sure the language became or should have become and 10 probably did become more stringent and we now warned that 11 breathing dust nay cause prolonged serious illness and than 12 the statement, "Do not breathe dust." No longer "avoid", 13 but "do not". 14 Q. And based on the knowledge that you had at the 15 various times in the '60s and '70s, at what point do you 16 believe that the more serious warning should have been put 17 on the bag? ' ' 1 18 A. I would say in the late '60s and early '70s, 19 by which time it was pretty well established that there was 20 an association between exposure to asbestos and 21 mesothelioma and lung cancer. - 22 Q. And you have kind of answered ay question. 23 Were there any other criteria, other than what you have 24 mentioned, that was used by the labeling committee? 25 A..-. Well the kind of damage that was produced was ` KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES bV >V 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 3 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 13 19 20 "21 22 23 24 25 always taken into consideration. U. You mean tne kind of damage that the product itsalr could produce was always taken into consideration' A. Right. 0. Did 1 ask you if you ever recommended that the word "cancer" be put on the label? A. fou asked me and I told you that we did not ' ever recommend it, that I can recall. . 0. Is there any particular reason that in spite of your knowledge concerning that issue that such a recommendation wasn't made? argumentative. MR. JONES: Object to the question as Go ahead and answer. A. My best recollection at the time is that, Number 1, at that point in time everybody was still concerned about the long fiber chrysotile type of asbestos and we were talking about the short fiber, short small fiber Coalinga type asbestos. And it was our belief at that time, and actually to some degree it is still my belief, that they are not the same breed of cat, they don't act exactly the same and they don't necessarily produce the same disease or the same typas of disease and that with that uncertainty in there there was also a question of whether ws should go so far as to say causes cancer*. Q. Was that uncertainty ever resolved KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES . A* ffinV Q;> ' definitively in your own mind before 1979? A. I don't believe it has been assigned or < resigned totally at this point in time. Q. Do you have any idea what Canadian Grade 7 fiber is? A. No, I don't. Q. Do you understand that the Calidria or ' 4 Coalinga fiber was likened from day one to Canadian Grade 7 fiber? A. No. MR. JONES: Object to the form'of the question. A. Don't know anything about that. Q- And did you ever do any kind of ;/ork to determine the carcinogenicity of Cadnadian Grade 7? A. No. . Q. So you wouldn't know, as you sit here today, one way or another as to whether or not Canadian Grade 7 chrysotile causes mesothelioma, is that right? . A. That's correct. Q * Have you aver been a diagnostic medical' doctor' A. I wouldn't say so, no. ' Q. Have you ever treated a patient? A. Yes. " Q* Do you know how mesothelioma works in the body; ** ... v * * In . . . - .. . .'* KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES . (612) 922-1955 * $ # * & * ' V . j.n otiijr words once you have a tumor do you know what that 2 tuinor does to cause death generally? J A. Well to the best of my recollection, 4 mesothelioma -- 5 Q. Doctor, I am just asking you if you know. I 6 don't need an explanation. 7 A. I really haven't studied it to the ooint where ' a 3 I could tell you how mesothelioma causes death. 9 Q. Do you have an opinion, and you may not, 10 whether or not mesothelioma or death by mesothelioma is 11 more painful or less painful than death by asbestosis' 12 A. I have no way of knowing that. 13 MR. POLK: That's all I have for now, 14 but again I want to retain my right to continue the 15 deposition. I am ending my questions now because it's 4:30 16 and we have to get back to Minnesota. 17 10 REC ROS3-EXAMINATION 19 3Y MR. BROWNGOU: * . 20 Q. Let me ask you a question, Doctor. Maybe Mike 21 asked it, but I don't think so. Are you aware that soma 22 individuals are more susceptible to mesothelioma than 23 others? 24 MR. JONES: Object to the question as ' 25 repetitive. Go ahead. .. ~ ~ KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES .. o' ^ - (612) 922-1955 * / .... I don't know how you determine that. J. P ' ' 3 Q. Ara you aware that in practice that has turned out to be the case? 4 A. I don't know how anybody could prove that 5 there is greater susceptibility to mesothelioma. 6 Q. Are you aware that cases of mesothelioma have 7 been diagnosed upon extremely low exposure histories to <3 asbestos? * 9 A. I am aware of the fact that there are cases of 10 mesothelioma which are not related to asbestos, so it is 11 entirely possible that you could have somebody with a very 12 low exposure to asbestos who had a mesothelioma. 13 -3 Are you also aware that people have been 14 diagnosed of having mesothelioma that had very low exposure 15 to asbestos? 16 A. 17 18 Thanks. I suppose that's possible. HR. BROWNSON: That's all I have. 19 MR. GOLDBERG: I hve a question. 20 MR. HARVARD: Can we take a break right 21 now just to give the Doctor a break? , 22 MR. GOLDBERG: I just have one question 23 though. Can I just ask one question? 24 MR. POLK: I want to be clear here on . 25 the record that we are going to have direct examination now. KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES -J (612) 922-1955 p.*. MR. JONES: Unless you want to say the deposition can't be used at trial. MR. POLK: I didn't end my questions for the purpose of missing my airplane. I am not done cross-examining the gentleman. MR. JONES: You made that clear on the record. MR. POLK: Are you not planning on bringing this witness to the trial, is that the idea, because I have no notice that you intended on taking his testimonial deposition. This was noticed for discovery purposes. ..... . MR. JONES: I think there are some things in discovery that need to be clarified based on some of the testimony that's been given today. MR. POLK: Then I think you ought to note the gentleman's testimonial deposition. You discovered my client for six hours before I took any direct and I want to have the same opportunity. . . MR. LAURA: In every deposition, discovery or otherwise, you have the right to direct examination, so I don't think that's a problem. I mean, if you have a problem with that, tell me what it is but I don't think that we should not have the right to do that. MR. POLK: I don't know what the intent KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES 0 (612) 922-1955 ' I-------- -- -- -- -- ---- -- ________________ _______________ 1 here is. What's your intent? Are you intending on 2 offering the deposition at trial? If that's what your 3 intent is, yes, I have a whole lot of problems with chat 4 and that's not in accordance with the Minnesota Rules. 5 MR. JONES: The Minnesota Rules don't 6 maics any distinction between depositions for discovery 7 purposes and testimonial purposes. 3 9 10 question? MR. POLK: Sure it does. MR. HARVARD: Why don't we get your one . 11 12 13 BY MR. GOLDBERG: CROSS-EXAMINATION .... 14 Q. One question in two parts. Doctor, my name is 15 Joe Goldberg. With regard to your opinion that chrysotile 16 asbestos can cause mesothelioma, have you had an 17 opportunity to review any literature or hear any testimony 18 to the contrary from any expert? 19 A. I can only recall seeing,' and I can't tell you 20 where I did read it, evidence to the effect that the 21 incidence of mesothelioma among a group where it was 22 expected to be high, was found to be very low. It 23 suggasted that there may or may not be a relationship 24 between chrysotile asbestos and mesothelioma. * ' 25 Q., And now the second part of my question. Would ` ~ I KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES : TM V ' '. (612) 922-1955 . .. ' ^_______ ________________;____________________________________________________ \ y f it be fair to say than that it's not that you have considered and rejected evidence tc the contrary but rather that you nave just not been exposed to it. MR. 3ROviNSON: I an going to object to tnac in light of his last answer. BY MR. GOLDBERG: MR. POLK: I will join in that. Q. Do you understand the question, Doctor' Let me rephrase the question. V7as it that you rejected the voracity of the one item you were talking about or simply that it was not a substantial enough body of evidence to cause you to reconsider your opinion? in other words, did you think it was wrong or not enough? A. To reconsider v/hat opinions? Q That chrysotile can cause mesothelioma. " A. 1 think that the preponderance of evidence at the present time suggestions that under certain circumstances chrysotile asbestos can cause mesothelioma, and the circumstances generally are tiiose of rather large exposure, massive exposure. Q. I understand you have testified to that. A. How, I think it is also entirely possible that the relationship between exposure to chrysotile asbestos and mesothelioma is and has been exaggerated. - Q., Doctor, my question to you isn't quite on that KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES (612) 922-1955 -.-'-K ' .. i point. I'-ly question is evidence to the contrary, evidence that asbestos doesn't cause mesothelioma has been described to you. My question was did you think that evidence was wrong or untruthful or simply inadequate in its scope to change your opinion? A. It was inadequate in its scope. . MR. GOLDBERG: I have no other questions. MR. HARVARD: Can we take a break right now for about five minutes and let us talk. (At this time a brief recess was taken.) MR. POLK: Doctor, we were just outside talking and your lawyers would like to take some testimony from you. I am sure you are tired and would like to go home and we would like to go home. Do you have any problem, if the weather was somewhat decent up in Minnesota, of appearing in Minnesota at some future date for the purposes of completing this testimony? Do you have any problem with that? THE WITNESS: Well, the main problem is I don't like to travel any more. For one thing, this business of hypoglycemia; the other is I am getting cataracts and-you noticed I had a little bit of trouble trying to see when I was reading. And if I do travel my wife has to go with me to keep an eye on me. MR. POLK: How would you feel about it ' ; V. y y KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES. . (612) 922-1955^'^*?^*-; .. U. .y*';V ' hr * r i 2 j 4 i> o 7 3 9 10 11' 12 13 14 is 13 17 13 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 i Wvi brougnt or someone brought you end your wife up to Minnesota at some future date for the purpose of completing your testimony and put you up in a nice hotel in Minneapolis? MR. HARVARD: At their expense. THE WITNESS: It would have to be after the 1st of May because we are having a meeting of the Sons of the American Revolution down here the last of April and x am the general chairman of the whole damn meeting. It's a state meeting. I am going to be wrapped up in that from here on out until that is over. " MR. POLK: The lawyers for Union Carbide would like to take some testimony from you. The case that we are here on or one of the cases that we are here for is the Manisto case which is scheduled for trial March 20 coming right up. I certainly don't want to do anything to prejudice Union Carbide to take your testimony, but on the other hand we would like to close it up and that's why ws are asking you about your availability and willingness to come up. I think you have answered the question. . THE WITNESS: My problem is the responsibilities-- I-- am-going to have in this area up until the end of April because from here on in it really gets short and have to work like mad to get everything set up. ' MR. POLK: Would those responsibilities , KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES . .. (612) 922-1955 .,.... 1 C.1SO entail the time period up to March 20, the next week 2 or so? ** THE WITNESS: Right up until the 29th of 4 April. 5 tomorrow or MR. JONES: That starts immediately 7 THE WITNESS: It started a few weeks ago 3 and actually just this day loss is sort of a problem to me ' 9 so, I mean, that's -- 10 MR. JONES: As I see it we have three 11 alternatives, one we can stay and continue it tomorrow; two, 12 we can come back; or, three, we can stipulate that it won't 13 be used until it's completed. You have indicated that you 14 are not willing to do the third, if I understand you 15 correctly. 1(5 HR. POLK: That's correct. 17 MR. GOLDBERG: Isn't there some late 18 plane out of here so you can switch airlines and get to 19 Minneapolis at midnight or something? You need another 20 hour and a half. You need to be walking out of here at .21 7:00 or 7:30. 22 ------- MR~-- POLK: Why don't we reschedule 23 sometime prior to trial.and come back? . ' ' . *-' ' 24 MR. JONES: As opposed to staying 25 overnight. Doctor, what's your -- KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES (612) 922-1955 <pvsy. W a .- Vii 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 3 9 10 11. 12 13 14 15 16 17 lb 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 T32 '.flTlJESS: Wall, it would be better for me if we did that If I have to go up there I have to take a ay to go up there, and a. day being in session, and a day to gat back. That's three days out of my area o responsibility.: Down here, if you only have half a day left on me, why it's a half a day loss. If you have a whole day, it's a whole day loss. MR. POLK: I have a suggestion. The new rules of Minnesota Civil Procedure call for a telephonic deposition, which we did just very recently. Do you have any problem with that? I will stipulate to the taking of the Doctor's telephonic deposition at a time mutually convenient for all parties. MR. BROW2J5CN:' So will I. MR. POLK: Commencing with your direct examination and reserving any right to further cross. How is that? MR. LAURA: Sounds good to me. MR. POLK:. Doctor, would that be satisfactory with you? I t 's a matter of just talking into the telephone. ------- MR-.- HARVARD: One of us could be hers to show him those documents and you all can just take the risk - - ** . over the phono that we are living up to our obligation regarding the practice of law that ws have shown him the ~~ : ' ` . *''* . : KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES . (612) 922-1955 ''H" ' . .. ....?? r.*\ " 1 document and not handed him a script to read the next 2 answer. 3 ' MR. POLK: That's fine by me. 4 MR. HARVARD: I am just kidding about 5 that, Mike. We will have somebody here to meet with the 6 Doctor and be present with him if the telephone deposition 7 occurs, and I assume that's not a problem for anybody 3 (At this time a discussion was held off 9 the record.) 10 MR. POLK: It is then agreed on behalf 11 of the Plaintiff, that procedure. 12 MR. JOWES: Fine on behalf of Union 13 Carbide. 14 MR. HARVARD: Just so the record is 15 clear, I want to make sure that Union Carbide is taking the 16 position that this -- that we object to any attempt to use 17 this deposition in any Court for any purpose allowed by law 18 until such time as the deposition has been complete and the 19 examination which we intend .to conduct in the deposition 20 has in fact been accomplished because at this point the 21 deposition is incomplete. We believe there are matters 22 which can be__inappr.Qpr_iately interpreted and we want tho 23 opportunity to conduct our examination prior to this 'a 24 deposition being concluded. 25 ' MR. POLK: You are not asking for my a ~ KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES " : : ... V ......... (612) 922-1955 J . 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 13 agreement on that. ' MR. HARVARD: tatOLi^nt on -the record. Uo, I am putting my MR. POLK: The Plaintiffs position is hataar it's usable or not in Minnesota is determined by tne Minnesota Rules of Civil Procedure. (At this time the deposition recessed.) Key-Word Index = CARL U. DERNEHL, M.D. (VOLUME I) . 11 tJ-j uA /.GV:.4_^iTG'* i'J Ld AiiuKA* i'2 La **** J*.3^ . . PG u'J A.-jOaxTiS* . I'd du awLEBSON* * 2 of .IEa GHSR, GEER, rt.AHKiiAM, AUDERSCN, ADA'ISON, PG Lii MiDXRSQU* . PG Li.' oLPiiORhYLLiTG* *0 Li.' .iR*id i\r\Ot*G* i JO . irlJjwS \i^nSVitO:iO voii.l Industries ; 2 j uU on behalf of Jof -Micu:nta AIvMBTivjuG 'or Ia Industries | " -i ' . 1 P0 Li ASU2S70S1S* 21) 15 concerned with the iuie-isc 6J 7 thui were ctiva in c using 00 u not widely different fro* 01 <i rapidly fatal form of 122 x5 that.asbestos could cause 122 2- : Union Carbide in 1047 tin: 2.5 2 ; vli&cajc# is that true? A. X2J 5 h a d knowledge* in 1047 that 12. i J. I yaeas- in terms or i j U 22 asbestos fiber eoulu cause - 2 1o a couple or cased of alleged 127 4 than that h jeciCd to pro-juce 144 J , could pieduce the ciseas.? 15S 24 i3w7 that eiyuratte diaoke and -S.b 2 long fiber asbestos caused 101 Li or lusts painful than loath by ASBESTOS 15. o. At the 'ASBESTOS XL wore the Ions ASBESTori jd, that there wn*. AfiUESTOJ.ilJ in people who ASBESTOSiC7 a . That's ASBESTOS l.'i ould be fatal "ASBESTOSIS v:an a ASBESTOS IS waa in part ASBESTOS!.; /ou arts ASHEST)-; ?j, i3 that. true? ASBESTOSIS .,r. institute in ASBESTOS IS * ,\. MO, I ACBE3703IC. G. In 1347 ASBESTOS! h v.l a ASBESTOS IS, and because if ASBESTOS IS? .v. i have i'O LtJ Vft/iS* . , KIRBY A. KSiWKDY S. ASSOCIATES - ' (612) 022-1955 " PG L-J 22 2 AUSTIN* by the name of Susan AUSTIN. There was PG LN AXLJES3* - ' : PG LN BAKER* ' PG LN 21 23 BALALTYNE* medical director; Dr. Brian BALANTYJE; a large staff PG LN 101 15 BARTON* ./as taken in this case, Bert BARTON, described you as PG LN EECHTOLD* PG LN BERGSTROM* PG LN 3IEDR0N* PG LN 54 10 54 23 BLUE* you familiar witn the term as- Johns-.Ianvilie Ultrabestos BLUE asbestos? Have you BLUE asbestos' A. I PG LN 30PE* PG LN BRAKE* PG LN 3RINGSN* vs. American 3RAXE Block Corporation, PG LN 2 5 3 7 3 9 4 2 4 10 '5 3 5 4 BROWN^. of Plaintiff. ROBERT D. Cross-Examination by Mr. Recross-Examination by Mr. at 11:55 or noon,_ MU. to let you know. MR. CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. Dr. Dernehl, my name is Bob 3R0WNS0N, 3R0WNS0N BROWNSON BROWNSON: BROWNSON: 'BROWNSON: BROWNSON. ESQUIRE, of the Page 5 Page 161 Why don *t you We will do Q. Dr. I introduced KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES ' (612) 922-1955 ' a PC LN 2j 15 u i7 41 23 2 lu 6 40 o 51 1 4 53 13 55 20 55 5 5 6 56 25 57 10 57 13 53 9 62 5 o3 6 63 19 55 7 66 6 36 10 67 10 o7 13 67 15 67 17 70 10 76 21 73 14 78 13 33 1 33 5 85 20 6 14 8 6 19 8 6 25 7 12 3 7 15 90 13 91 22 91 24 93 17 94 b 95 6 95 7 96 6 96 9 97 15 98 11 104 6 BROWS* ' ycu talking about? tailing about i>55. take a brief break? recess was taken.) He did, '12. clarify the question? go aneaa and answer. answer the question. Court Reporter.) by Counsel. recess was taken.) recalls chat journal? name of the article? to Hilling." said commissioned? in Exhibit 7. the exhibit number? have been published. Rephrase that. on the copy. off the record.) you, on Exhibit 4? WITNESS: Not mine. ? MR. POLK: Yes. know whose they are. off the record.) finished product end? to review the time. recess was taken.) answer the question. from the document? the whole report? objection is offered. ,, concern is noted. off the record.) continuing objection? didn't expect you to. through the quote. about it all at once? .hi. <70333: Okay. JONES: 3 as in boy' testimony by Counsel. the number on that? Exhibit 24. make our notes now? , 'West Virginia* Number 2G, please? as to what it is. for the record. ilR. 6Y HR. MR. 3Y .V* 3Y MR. BY MR. 3Y MR. MR. 3Y MR. MR. 3Y MR. MR. MR. BY MR. MR. BY MR. MR. BY MR. BY MR. MR. 3Y MR. MR. MR. MR. BY MR. BY MR. MR. MR. BY MR. MR. MR. HR. MR. MR. BY MR. MR. BY MR. BY MR. MR. 3Y MR. MR. BY MR. MR. BY MR. HR. BY MR. MR. BY MR. MR. BROWNSON BROWNSON BROWNSON BROWNSON BROWNSON BROWNSON -BROWNS ON BROWNSON BROWNSON BROWNSON -BROWNSGN BROWNSON 3R0WNS0N BROWNSON BROWNSON BROWNSON BROWNSON BROWNSON BROWNSON BROWNSON BROWNSON BROWNSON BROWNSON BROWNSON BROWNSON BROWNSON 3R0WN30N 3R0WNS0N BROWNSON BROWNSON BROWNSON BROWNSON BROWNSON BROWNSON BROWNSON BROWNSON -BROWNSON BROWNSON BROWNSON BROWNSON BROWNSON BROWNSON BROWNSON BROWNSON BROWNSON BROWNSON BROWNSON BROWNSON BROWNSON 1 wa 5 Still Q. Was that I think it o. You Q. Just so 0. Well, is Q. Do you lie aIso stated Q. I am You are right, Q. Doctor, Just the . The name of Q. And in Yes. A. Q . Was your Exhibit 1. Q. You have Q. 'Was there That document Q. Doctor, Are those yours Is that yours? Now wo know Q . W.2 have Q . Doctor, My last It's five to a. Dr. I am asking Yes. MR. Vieil , I don't We have now I don't care Q. Have you Go ahead. Q. Would you a . They are No. -MR. Q. Have you Yes. A. No Q. Does that Exhibit 24. Q . The That 's-a memo Q. Can you December 4. Q. Have you I didn't think KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES (612) 922-1955 PG LN 14 S iO4 22 105 3 105 14 106 7 107 22 107 25 114 5 116 11 152 20 156 7 161 19 162 17 165 4 169 14 BROWN* . was for the record. say January or July? from Thomas Hall. speaks for itself. handwritten form. che letter says, Bob? where on the letter? recess-was taken.) Not that I know of. opposed to airborne. in the early '70s? RECROSS-EXAMINATION that's possible. been exposed to it. for all parties. BY MR. MR. BY MR. BY MR. BY MR. MR. MR. BY MR. MR. MR. MR. BY MR. MR. MR. MR. BROWNSON: BROWNSON: BROWNSON: 3R0WNS0N: BROWNSON: BROWNSON: BROWNSON: BROWNSON: BROWNSONs BROWNSON: BROWNSON: BROWNSON: BROWNSON: BROWNSON: BROWNSON: Q. Tell us January. A. Q. Have you Q. Does that Q. Do you Yes. MR. First Q. Doctor, I guess that's Aerodynamic? You had better Q. Let me That's all i I am going to So will I. PG LN 114 17 BYRNE* , from li. B. Rhodes to R. E. BYRNE, Junior, among PG LN BYRNE* PG LN CALVARAS* '.'-'//i Vv`-. PG LN CAREY* . PG LN CARLSON* PG LN 36 2 39 5 39 7 39 CARPENTER*- - - - ' in command was Dr . C. P. fellow, and C. P. as fellows. Q. Now , C. P. Carpenter, is that Charles P. CARPENTER, and an CARPENTER was the CARPENTER, is that Charles CARPENTER? A. Right. PG LN CARPENTER* PG LN CELITE* .PG LN CELOTEX* . w - -h --f . .;V '-4 KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES ' ( 612) ^.`4. til LH CHa TSWGTH* 19 gentleman by the name of Jim CKATSWORTH was the LH CHESTON* LH CHRYSOTILE* 15 ? THE WITNESS "Refind CHRYSOTILE Asbestos, 13 Hot really. I know that CHRYSOTILE generally is 17 say it would be a long fiber CHRYSOTILE. Q. But not 21 if Union Carbide mined any CHRYSOTILE other than that 4 Exhibit 15, would show a long CHRYSOTILE fiber that . 11 , "Variation of Properties of CHRYSOTILE Asbestos 21 described in the article as CHRYSOTILE. Does that 23 A. If they describe it as CHRYSOTILE, I assume it's 24 as chrysotile, I assume it's CHRYSOTILE. Q. Have 8 is entitled, "The Effects of CHRYSOTILE Asbestos ` 1 associated with Canadian CHRYSOTILE mine workers? 17 you saw coming out of the CHRYSOTILE miners? A. 23 McDonald among the Canadian . CHRYSOTILE miners? A. 6 right. So Sayers says, " CHRYSOTILE fibers, being 7 deep into lungs. Injected CHRYSOTILE does cause 22 Union Carbide you understood CHRYSOTILE asbestos fiber 3 determining the toxicity of CHRYSOTILE asbestos fiber 6 which compared the types of CHRYSOTILE toxicity to the 11 determining the toxicity of CHRYSOTILE asbestos fiber 17 the carcinogenicity of CHRYSOTILE asbestos? A. 11 and fillers, one of which-was CHRYSOTILE asbestos." 6 to a definite conclusion that CHRYSOTILE asbestos cannot 9 Do I have an opinion that CHRYSOTILE asbestos cannot 16 medical certainty, that CHRYSOTILE asbestos in 21 for your last opinion that CHRYSOTILE can cause 1 today to indicate that CHRYSOTILE asbestos can 8 you would also agree that CHRYSOTILE asbestos is 14 concerning the deposits of CHRYSTILE asbestos in the 21 Conwad plant and testing for CHRYSOTILE asbestos in the 16 about the long fiber CHRYSOTILE type of 19 or not Canadian Grade 7 CHRYSOTILE causes 15 regard to your opinion that CHRYSOTILE asbestos-can 24 not be a relationship between CHRYSOTILE asbestos and 15 what opinions? Q. That CHRYSOTILE can cause 18 -- under certain circumstances CHRYSOTILE asbestos can 23 between exposure to CHRYSOTILE asbestos and LN COALINGA* ~ 9 the King City deposit, the COALINGA deposit, had been 2 mined any asbestos from th.e COALINGA deposit around 5 think it was at a town called COALINGA. Q. Do you KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES -V " (612) 922-19^5 'w-.f'* lie V PG LN 55 11 bl 11 32 12 144 l 157 24 153 3 159 18 160 8 COALINGA* toxicity or toxicology of the that wa were getting at bean pronoting the sale of to be a certain number of , what was known about tnat the label on tha initial fiber, short small fiber that tha Calidria or COALINGA or Calridia fiber COALINGA. Q. Okay. A. COALINGA asbestos for just COALINGA or Calridia COALINGA asbestos as COALINGA shipments was COALINGA type asbestos. COALINGA fiber was likened PG LN CON3TAN3* PG LN 1 18 26 56 64 3 73 5 76 15 77 3 134 1 134 3 134 8 155 is; 155 20 C0NW2D* Plaintiffs, vs. and on behalf of Defendant I represent a company called particular report did reach Have you ever heard of the Carbide aid do testing at the in and did sampling in the indicating Bakelite sales to kinds of sales of Bakelite to f that Baxelita was sold to in the fiver that ajoined the Union Carbide going to the CONWED Corporation (a CONWED Corporation. CONWED Corporation, which CONWED Corporation, who CONWED Corporation? A. CONWED plant, would that CONWED plant I would be CONWED? You have them. CONWED. MR. JONES: CONWED. MR. LAURA: CONWED or Cloquet plant7 CONWED plant and testing PG LN CREWSON* PG LN 54 13 54 20 PG LN CROCIDOLITE* they mined in South Africa, of your knowledge that is CRONOIDE* CROCIDOLITE. Q. I CROCIDOLITE fiber? A. 2 PG LN CROWELL* PG LN GRUSEN* PG LN 1 22 '3 12 3 13 DERNEHL* I Deposition by Mr. Goldberg through 44 marked ^ of CARL U. Page 164 . Page 4 . DERNEHL, M.D., taken DERNEHL Deposition DERNEHL Deposition.Exhibit KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES .... . . (612) 922-195S.M^ ^ ^y, >'J LA ' 14 41 45 4 21 54 63 a 22 40 20 43 3 47 2 47 10 47 22 43 17 50 19 55 17 55 22 56 S 58 21 59 1 65 1 66 1 70 1 78 19 78 20 78 20 39 19 95 4 98 5 98 3 102 3 103 18 104 25 106 22 110 20 111 19 116 13 139 19 147 24 148 2 148 3 DERNEHL* 45 marked Page 55 (At this time HR.. JCJE3: Dr. the record.) CARL U. BY ivIR. 3R0WN30N: Q. Dr. ? A. Right. J. Dr. A. I have not. Q. Dr. and it says Number 4, Dr. C. You mentioned earlier, Dr. you what has been marked as you what's been marked as I am asking right now, Dr. And you are referring now to now what has been marked as a bell. (At this time the reporter has marked as you what has been marked as that's been marked as to look at that one. Dr. you what has been marked as you is a document marked as to show you a document marked 3Y MR. BR0WN50N: Q. Dr. you is what's been marked as as Dernehl Exhibit 5, and My next question then, Dr. you what has been marked as you what has been marked as 7, 1967, to Dr. Hall from Dr. you what has been marked as of the letter says that Dr. exhibit 1 want to show you is "-- first approved by Carl you what-has been marked as form of the question. Dr. BY MR. POLK: Q. Dr. to Dr. Hall? MR. JONES: sure. (At this time MR. JONES: Dr. , what has now been marked as DERNEHL Deposition Exhibit DERNEHL Deposition DERNEHL has informed us DERNEHL, M.D., the DERNEHL, my name is Bob DERNEHL, have you ever had DERNEHL, how old are you DERNEHL. Nas your DERNEHL, that the chest DERNEHL Deposition Exhibit DERNEHL Deposition Exhibit DERNEHL, are not about .the DERNEHL Exhibit 10, for DERNEHL Deposition Exhibit DERNEHL Deposition Exhibit DERNEHL Deposition Exhibit DERNEHL Exhibit 45 and you DERNEHL Deposition Exhibit DERNEHL, I would like to DERNEHL Deposition Exhibit DERNEHL Deposition Exhibit DERNEHL Deposition Exhibit DERNEHL, the next thing I DERNEHL Exhibit 5, and DERNEHL Exhibit 5 is a DERNEHL, is did you also DERNEHL Exhibit 24 which DERNEHL Deposition Exhibit DERNEHL. Beyond that I DERNEHL Exhibit 34 and ask DERNEHL has followed this DERNEHL Deposition Exhibit DERNEHL before we finally DERNEHL Deposition Exhibit DSRNEftL has already said DERNEHL, I am going to ask DERNEHL Exhibit 33. BY DERNEHL Deposition Exhibit DERNEHL, what has now been DERNEHL Exhibit 46, that's PG LN DIBARTOLOMEO* PC LN DICKSON* KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES (612) 922-1955' ***rj*_ - PG LN DOMXE* PG LN EDMUND* PG LN ENGLANDER* PG LN ENGLISH* PG LN 3 12 3 13 3 14 4 1 47 2 47 11 48 17 49 1 49 17 49 21 50 9 50 19 50 24 51 16 53 5 54 4 55 17 55 22 56 1 56 8 58 1 58 22 59 3 59 25 62 4 63 1 63 4 63 6 64 15 64 18 65 14 66 1 *67 5 67 9 69 7 69 22 70 i: EXHIBIT* Page 164 Dernehl Deposition Page 4 Dernehl Deposition Page 55 Dernehl Deposition this time DERNEHL Deposition marked as Dernehl Deposition marked as Dernehl Deposition are referring now to Dernehl sheet we have here, which is Q. In this particular safety data sheet, which is data, such as we see in marked as Dernehl Deposition at the first page of that . right-hand corner of the about it. Q. The logo on information bulletin, such as this time DERNEHL Deposition marked as Dernehl Deposition record, I would object to the has been marked as Dernehl is described in this article, marked as Dernehl Deposition document, which is Deposition looking at, Deposition The study reflected in marked as Dernehl Deposition MR. HARVARD: What was the number? MR. BR0V7N30N: a technical report such as the characterization of the you what has been marked as marked as Dernehl Deposition wrote this particular one, notes are, do you, oh *, in the second paragraph of Report was published, marked Dernehl Deposition EXHIBITS 1 through 44 EXHIBIT 45 marked Page EXHIBIT 46 marked Page EXHIBITS 1 through 44 EXHIBIT 9, it's a document EXHIBIT 10 and ask you if EXHIBIT 10, for the record EXHIBIT 10. There is a EXHIBIT Number 10? a . EXHIBIT 10, was issued EXHIBIT 10, were there EXHIBIT 15 and ask is you EXHIBIT, it's got this EXHIBIT portrays? A. I EXHIBIT 15 in the upper EXHIBIT 15, would show a EXHIBIT 45 was marked EXHIBIT 45 and just ask, EXHIEIT on the grounds EXHIBIT 45 and you hav^ EXHIBIT 45? A. N o , Y EXHIBIT 7 and it's SXHI3IT 7. if you look EXHIBIT 7? A. That, I EXHIBIT 7. BY ilR. EXHIBIT 1 and ask you this EXHIBIT number? MR. EXHIBIT 1. MR. JONES: EXHIBIT 1 and it not be EXHIBIT as a technical EXHIBIT 2 and ask you if . EXHIBIT Number 4, and ask EXHIBIT 4? A. No, I EXHIBIT 4? MR. . - EXHIBIT 4, the Asbestos "y? EXHIBIT 4? A. I do not \ EXHIBIT *32' which is a 'iv PG LN 70 12 78 il 78 20 73 21 .31 5 81 6 1 7 31 3 95 4 95 6 95 20 95 25 96 1 96 22 97 12 97 13 97 16 93 5 102 3 104 3 104 18 104 20 104 24 104 25 105 22 106 5 110 20 114 12 135 12 139 19 140 2 146 22 147 24 143 3 EXHIBIT* ' you are looking at which is Q. Let's move on to another wnat's been marked as Darnehl Exhibit 5, and Dernehl with this report as well, MR. HARVARD: Is this Is this Exhibit 7? a . 5. 0 I take that back, has been marked as Dernehl on that? MR. BRQV/NSQN: Q. How, on that memo on one I want to show you is 26 -- well, we will go with show you what has been marked it? A. Probably. Q. MR. HARVARD: Could I see MR. JONES: For the record, narked as Dernehl Deposition has been marked as Dernehl Can you identify for us what Q. Earlier I had showed you I will ask you now, does that I have on that. The next you is Dernehl Deposition to show you is Deposition second page attached to that marked as Dernehl Deposition I wanted to show you was an MR. JONES: Identify the ? MR. JONES: Dernehl in drafting tha contents of I have marked as Plaintiff's this time DERNEHL Deposition .now been marked as Dernehl EXHIBIT 32, does that help EXHI JIT. MR. GOLDBERG: EXKI3IT 5, and Dernehl EXHIBIT 5 is a report bv EXHIBIT ~ MR. EXHIBIT EXHIBIT EXHIBIT 2XHI3IT 7' A. 5. Q. 5. A. 24 which Exhibit I take I think, is a memo EXHIBIT 24. BY MR. EXHIBIT 24, it indicates EXHIBIT 26 -- well, we . EXHIBIT 25, and I will ask EXHIBIT 26, and ask you if EXHIBIT 27, would you tell EXHIBIT Number 26, please? EXHIBIT 27 is a letter EXHIBIT 33 and ask you if EXHIBIT 34 and ask you EXHIBIT 34 is? MR. EXHIBIT 32, 'which is a EXHIBIT indicate that a EXHIBIT I want to show you EXHIBIT 25, and I will ask EXHIBIT 36 and I will EXHIBIT that is not EXHIBIT 33 and ask you, EXIII3IT marked 39 and ask EXHIBIT. A. That might EXHIBIT 33. BY MR. POLK: EXHIBIT 33? A. Not EXHIBIT 3824. I will EXHIBIT 46 was marked EXHIBIT 46, that's the PG LIT FOURDRINIER* PG LiJ FR2H3S* PG LH 31 10 FRI* have been sort of on the FRINGES of this. This PG LN GAFFNEY* KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES (612) 922-1955 PG Li* 151 13 151 14 151 l 151 19 151 21 GASKET* asbestos is an ingredient in is that it is in some or not the asbestos within a hazard in certain types of of any asbestos-containing GASKET type products? A. GASKETS, yes. Q. Do GASKET type products is a GASKETS. Q. Was Union GASKETS or packing PG LN G2NDXIV* PG LN 97 2 97 17 giambruno* , to his supervisor, Jim 27 is a letter from Saxton to GIAMBRUNO, to not send Mr. GIAMBRUNO dated 23 October PG LN GLIDDEN* PG LN GREENHALGH* - PG LN GROGAN* ....... PG LN GUYER* ' ' ' '' ' ' . PG LN GUYER* PG LN 98 8 98 24 102 20 104 12 104 13 104 13 105 7 106 2 106 10 106 11 106 12 133 21 139 16 139 18 150 12 HALL* dated-June 7, 1967, to Dr. of June 7, 1967, to Dr. Tom , to Frank Dexter from T. J. apparently written by T. J. . Q. Do you know T. J. T. J. Hall to be Dr. Thomas , to Frank Dexter from Thomas , to Frank Dexter from Thomas , the signature of Dr. Thomas Hall? A. It says Thomas -- It, so I assume it's Tom what your letter to Dr. letter that you wrote to Dr. your June '67 letter to Dr. letter that you wrote to Dr. HALL from Dr. Dernehl. HALL? A. Yes, it is. HALL with a two page cHALL. Q. Do you know HALL to be Dr. Thomas Hall HALL? A. That would be HALL. BY MR. BR0WNS0N: HALL in Brussels. - MR. HALL? A. It says HALL below it, so I assume HALL. Q. There is some HALL says. A. Ye-, I HALL which I think you saw HALL? MR. JONES: HALL in '67 -- A. Yes. f \ t ' *r KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES ' (612) 922-1955 > Hi- p l n HALL** PG LN HAMMOND* PG Lj.'I -HANjUN* PG LN :IAKAYDA* PG LN 40 7 40 HAUN* Q. How about Charles C. you racall hin? A. Yes, HAUN, do you recall hin? HAUN was one of the later PG LN HELLA* PG LN HELOCK* PG LN 123 20 123 20 123 24 HEN3HAW* . Q. Do you know a Dr. know a Dr. Henshaw, Corwin seen written by Dr. Corwin HENSHAW, HENSHAW? HENSHAW? ' Corwin Henshaw? A. I know the A. I have not PG LN 35 7 HILL* Toxicology at Chapel HILL -- at Research PG LN HIRSCHORN* PG ,LN HOLLOWAY* PG LN HOLMES* . - 115 9 you ever heard of a Dr. Steve HOLMES? A. No. Q. PG LN HOOKER* PS LN HOROCKA* KIR3Y A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES (612) 922-I'955.,.:;^X^V*' PU LN 41 i HULL* names PG LN INGALLS * -hers is an E. Q. w hh ui t^.lt . Ti ,don', c ,know if is PG l n JEuKINS* PG LN JEHOME* PG LN 54 23 54 24 55 1 55 7 61 16 97 2 97 3 122 5 122 9 157 25 JOHNS-MANVILLE* a brand of asbestos known as ? A. I have heard of Q. Do you know if know what type of asbestos reasonably long fiber # to not send Mr. Peele to to supervise or to study the ? with the president of know who the president of asbestos that was marketed by JOHNS-MANVILLE Ultrabestos JOHNS-MANVILLE, beyond JOHNS-MANVILLE mined any JOHNS-MANVILLE mined at JOHNS-MANVILLE product. JOHNS-MANVILLE to' JOHNS-MANVILLE report, but JOHNa--MANVILLE Corporation JOHNS-MANVILLE was or is. JOHNS-MANVILLE and by the PG LN JOHNSON* PG LN 41 20 41 21 JOYNER* Q. How about Dr. R. e . Dr. R. E. Joyner? a . Dr. JOYNER' a . Dr. Joyner JOYNER took my place at PG LN JUNTTI* PG LN KANZLL* PG LN KCAL* PG LN 1 12 2 9 KEENE* Company, GAP Corporation, Inc., GAF Corporation, KEENE Corporation, KEENE Corporation, KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES (612) 922-1955. PG LN KENDALL* ptj Ltl KENDALL* PG LN 42 18 XJSTCHAM* PG LN NET-CIIUm * Aou about N. H. KETCHAH? A. He was the PG LN 16 3 16 7 . 16 9 23 13 23 20 23 21 23 22 23 23 24 9 25 20 25 20 26 2 26 4 26 15 23 2 28 9 28 19 40 10 43- 4 43 5 43 7 43 18 5a 22 53 25 55 2 55 4 62 7 62 9 157 5 KING* * are these the people at the mining of asbestos at context, it sounds like the unit. Q. How about his name. Q. Was he at I am not sure, it was either I believe he was at . Q. Have you ever been to you recall when you went to Q* Do you know when whan King City began, the chest X-rays of employees at by this outside doctor at been done of employees at the most of the coverage of-the Dr. Lane actually went out to know why this X-ray study of Q. How about John M. chest X-rays of workers at mean day one of production at that go back to the time that plants elsewhere, other than of the Calridia deposit at that, the Calridia fiber from the Coalinga deposit around a mine maybe 30 miles east of only for the workers at the material, the work-erg- at the you started shipping from the KING City, California, is KING City. Q. so if W2 KING City deposit, the . KING City,.California, do KING City7 A. I am not KING City or .Monterey. j KING City. Q. Have you KING City? A. Twice. KING City on either of KING City began, the King KING City facility, began IKING City, was it an X-ray KING City*5 A. Yes. Q. KING City facility? A. KING City operations. Q. KING City to set things up KING City employees was KING? A. Also. Q. KING City were done at day KING City? A. At the KING City started KING City, wherefor Union KING City at any time' KING City? A. I have KING City? A. I KING City. Unless I am XING City facility? A. KING City facility KING City plant in the PG LN KING* KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES (612) 922-1955-' XINXEAD* C'. How about Edwin R. was he a fallow? a . , in any event, that Edward ? A. I don't know what KINXEAD, was he a fellow7 KINKEAD came along later. XINKEAD worked for some of KINXEAD did. Q. r-ow ?G LLI KOZACIK* PG LN KOZACIK* PG Lli KROOL* PG LN 21 25 LAFRANCE* Paul McDaniel being one, Leo LAFRANCE. I can't PG LN LAMINAR* PG LN 21 22 31 4 66 15 66 17 66 21 136 24 147 ia 147 19 LANE* , A. Let's see. Dr. Kenneth the side but at that time Dr. done at the direction of Dr. Lane? A. Probably at Dr. Q. Do you know if Dr. remember that. Q. Is Dr. Yes. A. It would be Dr. what period of years Dr. has the name of Dr. K. s. Q. Is that che same Dr. probably wrote part of it and Report in comparison to Dr. input in it, it came from Dr. Dr. Lane. Q. When did Dr. LANE, who was an assistant LANE was doing most of the LANE? A. Probably at LANE'S request. Q. d 0 LANE actually went out to LANE still alive? a . LANE. Q. Do you recall LANE dealt with that topic LANE? A. Right. Q. LANE we were talking about LANE probably wrote part LANE? A. I can't LANE. Q. When did Dr. LANE, by the way, leave PG LN 14 17 55 14 56 15 LANG2R* Q. How abou-t- -a-- doctor named being done by a Dr. Arthur ? A. No, I don't. Q. LANGER? A. I don't LANGER, who was affiliated LANGER, Wolff, Rohl and PG LN LEE* C KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES (612) 922-1955/' PG LN LEE* PG LH LJNANDER* PG LN LUDiG* PG LI i 4 1 4 5 7 17 15 MANIST* Jaats W. -W. Maniseo and Patricia S. Minnesota brought by a James that we are here for 3 the MAII3TO and Patricia s. MANISTO, husband and wif MANISTO against many MANISTO case which is PG LN HANKA* PG LN MANKO* ?G LN HARSH* PG LN MCCARTHY* PG LN MCCUNE* PG LN HCCUNNEY* PG LN 17 11 17 12 21 24 125 23 MCDANIEL* ' ' industrial hygienist, Paul , Paui McDaniel. Q. Is Mr. industrial hygienists, Paul ? A. No, tnat was Mr. Paul MCDANIEL. Q. Is Mr. MCDANIEL still around? MCDANIEL being one, Leo MCDANIEL. Q. Now, PG LI MCGARY* PG LN MCGUILLIVRAY* * .PG LN MCJILTON* KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES PG LN MCLEAN* PG LN MCNEIL* ' PG LU MEDFORD* 42 of. How about Or. F. 2. MEDFORD? A. Medford. 42 7 Dr. F. E. Medford? A. MEDFORD. Q. lie nay 42 o Ha nay not be a doctor, F. 2. MEDFORD? A. I think he PG LN 34 20 34 23 35 20 35 22 35 24 36 6 36 10 37 3 37 4 37 6 37 7 37 a 37 10 37 13 37 19 37 21 37 22 37 23 37 25 38 1 33 5 38 14 33 15 36 25 40 l 58 11 53 12 53 20 58 22 59 4 59 12 59 24 62 1 99 18 109 19 13 9 113 21 .-ELLON* , we had our own laboratory at to that, other than at the own research? A. At the personnel did research at the hygiene fellowship at the conduct research at the MELLON Institute in MELLON Institute in MELLON Institute. Q. MELLON Institute in MELLON Institute in MELLON Institute' A. their relationship with you a little bit about the . Is this part of Carnegie another institution? A. organization founded by the research canter run by the MELLON MELLON MELLON MELLON MELLON MELLON and they maintained Institute because I University or is Institute was an . interests as a Institute in would contract with the MELLON Institute for a had chemical fellowships at MELLON, they established hygiene fellowship at MELLON. Q. And what hygiene fellowship at MELLON Institute? A. Institute? A. As long as MELLON Institute existed. sometime in the '60s, the me put it this way, that the time was formed the Carnegie MELLON Institute was taken MELLON interests were MELLON University. Q. the umbrella of Carnegie . They were paid by the MELLON University. And MELLON Institute or Mellon Institute or Carnegie ship was in existence at the MELLON University, but MELLON Institute was there of the reports issued by the MELLON Institute it has , yes, we did some work at MELLON. Q. Other than . Q. Other than studies at MELLON, do you know of any Q. No, you mentioned the MELLON study and I want to MELLON Institute, Special appears*to be a report by the MELLON Institute, is that And this was a study done by MELLON Institute personnel any other studies done by the MELLON Institute done on this study by the MELLON Institute? A. you referring there to the MELLON Institute study toxicology report done by the MELLON Institute in 1966? A. Union Carbide used their MELLON fellowship to carry searches? A. Through MELLON Institute, yes. . Y " ' " ' KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES . (612) 922-1955 -Tr-fl&jiraii' i>G LN loi 8 la* iO 161 10 161 22 j.62 5 lt>2 6 162 10 152 12 162 14 164 16 164 21 164 24 165 15 165 13 165 24 .166 2 MESOTHELIOMA* j where I could tell you how you may not, whether or not not mesothelioma or death by are more susceptible to is greater susceptibility to Are you aware that cases of fact that there are cases of to asbestos who had a have been diagnosed of having chrysotile asbestos can cause effect that the incidence of chrysotile asbestos and That chrysotile can cause chrysotile asbestos can cause to chrysotile asbestos and that asbestos doesn't cause MESOTHELIOMA causes death. MESOTHELIOMA or death by MESOTHELIOMA is more MESOTHELIOMA than others'5 MESOTHELIOMA. Q. Are MESOTHELIOMA have been MESOTHELIOMA which are not fIE30THELI OMA. Q. \re MESOTHELIOMA that had vary MESOTHELIOMA, have you had MESOTHELIOMA among a group MESOTHELIOMA. Q. And MESOTHELIOMA. A. I MESOTHELIOMA, and the .MESOTHELIOMA is and has MESOTHELIOMA has been PG Lbi MILLIPORE* PG LN MONTEROTTI* PG LN MOSTROM* . PG LN MUHLS* PG LN MUMPTON* PG LIT 111 2 111 3 MURRAY* ' , to D. C. Willard from Bert This is a report from Bert MURRAY. A* This is a MURRAY, who was an PG LN 115 22 115 25 116 1 116 4 MYERS* Q. Do you knowwho John L. at one time,----A.-- I met be surprised if in 1974 Mr. dust? A. That was Mr. ' MYERS is? Ha was the MYERS a few times, yes. MYERS was telling MYERS' problem and not PG LN 17 2 17 3 17 5 MALE* ? A. Dr. Thomas NALE. Q. Is Dr. Nale Thomas Nale. Q. is Dr. NALE still around? A. Other than yourself and Dr. NALE, do you recall any l KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES (612) H'.sr-vi .V 1 y. \ PG LN iis 1 119 25 MELLON* `50s i.nd -early '60s when tne we aid. the animal studies at MELLON Institute staff was MELLON Institute. Q. FG LN 25 17 29 16 29 23 7d 2 7b 3 90 20 100 3 100 7 100 13 100 17 101 2 115 3 126 17 127 2 127 5 127 10 127 11 127 13 127 23 123 7 123 9 129 3 129 7 137 3 137 7 137 19 137 22 133 14 138 17 139 4 153 6 153 10 153 17 153 22 154 2 154 3 154 15 154 23 155 1 155 9 153 21 160 .19 160 25 161 4 MESOTHELIOMA* had you heard of the disease that asbestos could cause by cancer would you include Report was written that Would you agree with me that There were others besides for the prevention of Union Carbide with respect to you were aware of the disease was sufficient to prevent limit value not preventing be even too high to prevent that asbestos could cause between asbestos and that asbestos can cause , Counsel. A. I think that mean that asbestos can cause that asbestos can cause that asbestos can cause between asbestos exposure and data connecting asbestos to between asbestos and people were counting cases of was the disease of whether we ever used the term for the development of 1967 that the development of about a disease like a serious disease like addressed the disease of asbestos cannot cause asbestos cannot cause asbestos in fact can cause . that chrysotile can cause chrysotile asbestos can cause as relates to the.disease of Tell me, in your opinion, is to the development of a that the incidence of of causing a peritoneal exposure to asbestos and Grade 7 chrysotile causes Yes. Q. Do you know how the best of my recollection, MESOTHELIOMA9 A. I MESOTHELIOMA9 MESOTHELIOMA9 A. Yes. i*i Yes. MESOTHELIOMA COUld be . MESOTHELIOMA is a MESOTHELIOMA. Q. Right MESOTHELIOMA." A . Yes. MESOTHELIOMA? A. No. MESOTHELIOMA? A. MESOTHELIOMA? A. I was MESOTHELIOMA iwas ever MESOTHELIOMA? A. I do MESOTHELIOMA? A. MESOTHELIOMA, but'ther a MESOTHELIOMA? A. I MESOTHELIOMA -- I mean MESOTHELIOMA. a. And- MESOTHELIOMA? A. Yes. MESOTHELIOMA? A. I MESOTHELIOMA. Q. And MESOTHELIOMA prior to that MESOTHELIOMA prior to 1967 MESOTHELIOMA and looking MESOTHELIOMA ever included MESOTHELIOMA or not. I MSS OTHELIOMA? A. No, I MESOTHELIOMA from exposure MESOTHELIOMA, and it MESOTHELIOMA. Q. And, MESOTHELIOMA? A. My MESOTHELIOMA? MR. MESOTHELIOMA? Q. Yes. MESOTHELIOMA? A. MESOTHELIOMA. What's the MESOTHELIOMA, lung cancers MESOTHELIOMA? A. Yes. MESOTHELIOMA a lung, cancer MESOTHELIOMA? A. I MESOTHELIOMA is a heck of MESOTHELIOMA, is that fair MESOTHELIOMA and lung MESOTHELIOMA, is that MESOTHELIOMA works in the MESOTHELIOMA ~ Q. KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES (612) 922-195.$ PG ON lb l5 19 5 19 14 19 20 2u 1 20 o 20 11 20 21 20 22 21 19 25 25 NALL** comprised of two people, Dr. the -uspicos of you anu Dr. commonly passed on to Dr. then refer it to you and Dr. to respond directxy to Dr. cne department of you and Dr. be referred to you or Dr. operations problems came to U.S. plant operations came to . Q. other than Dr. time the directive of Dr. NALE and myself, and we Na LE? A. Yes. 0. NALE and myself for NALE? 7 That sort o NALE and myself without NALE? A. Absolutely. NALE? ?1. Yes. MR NALE and myself, and all NALE and myself. Q. NALE and yourself, who NALE who is the corporat PG LN 65 18 65 20 NAUMANN* xn Cellulosic Paper" by A. W. it was. I don't know NAUMANN. A. It says NAUMANN and I have not . PG LN N2ENAH* PG LN NESS* -- PG LN NIOSH PG LN NORRIS* PG LN PADUCAH* PG LN PALKS* .., - PG LN : PALMER* > PG LN PANAK* ------- ---- PG LN PATTERSON* PG LN PCM* - '* ' - . - ... " * * ** v*#* **** * . . KIRSY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES PG LN 97 2 97 20 125 22 PEELE* Giambruno, to not send Hr. subnit ting a report from ilr. , that wouldn't have been Hr. PSELE to Johns-Manville to PEELS :/hich indicates that PEELE, would it? A. No PG Ui PERLITE* PG LH PETERSON* PG LH 36 2 40 4 130 3 POZZANI* inhalation specialist Urboano did. Q. How about Urboano character known as Urbano POZZANI, and statistician, POZZANI, was he a Union POZZANI. Q. And did PG LH PROSE* PG LN RAZINSKI* PG LN REICHARD* PG LN 113 23 114 16 RHODES* did. Q. Do you know H. B. 29, 1975, from H. 3. RHODES? A. No, I do RHODES to R. E. Byrne, PG LN RINNS* PG LN 14 14 56 15 ROHL* > about a doctor named Arthur don't. Q. Langer, Wolff, ROHL, do you know if he ROHL and Selikoff? A. PG LN ROSEN* - PG LU SATTER* PG LN SATTER* KIRBY A. KENNEDY (612) 922 LN SAYERS* 21 5 id a report by Doctor I. . 21 was probably -- 0 CiT Or. i'o is on the first page of the 20 C Do you know Dr. 1. C. 17 witn me in Section 2.2 of the 17 2.2 of the ayers report Dr. 2 seems to be expressing to Dr. 13 don't you go to Page S of the yes. Q. On Page 18 of the 2 that you have reviewed Dr. 21 they are talking about the 24 this does not refer to the 7 Ian", and I assume that's Ian 14 is handwritten notes of Dr. 17 Q. The letter says it's Dr. 5 ." All right. So 23 or conclusions by Dr. 22 any publication by Dr. Ian 23 approving any reports of Dr. 13 understand it, you found Mr. 1 And without looking at Mr. 3 as to whether Mr. 9 , whether that drawsupon Mr. 1 of drawing upon Mr. 7 upon the contents of Mr. AYERS in England and with SAYERS' A. I think it SAYERS' report and, I SAYERS? A. I don't SAYERS report Dr. Sayers SAYERS is describing SAYERS about the use of SAYERS report? Paragraph SAYERS report, at SAYERS' report'5 .A. SAYERS' report, "-- SAYERS' report really. SAYERS, "Passes on the SAYERS, is that right? SAYERS handwritten notes, SAYERS says, "Chrysotile SAYERS? A. I would SAYERS or approving any SAYERS for publication SAYERS' 1967 report to bo SAYERS' report, as you sit SAYERS' report addressedSAYERS' report, that is SAYERS' report in drafting SAYERS' report? A. No, LN SCHIEFER* LN 3CHWAHN* LN S C a W A H H * LN SELIKOFF* 11 that were conducted by Dr. SELIKOFF and at least one 15 which were conducted by Dr. SELIKOFF? A. No, I 23 at which-you attended by Dr. SELIKOFF conferences 2 at those conferences with Dr. SELIKOFF? A. My 5 research reports on some of SELIKOFF*5 work. Q. Do 7 conferences other than Dr. SELIKOFF himself3 A. 20 first hear of the work of Dr. SELIKOFF, do you recall 22 OSHA was being formed. Dr. SELIKOFF testified 13 review was done we knew of SELIKOFF*S studies with 19 recognition gained from Dr. SELIKOFF*S work or from 20 ? A. I would say that Dr. SELIKOFF*S work was the 23 dealing with any of Dr. SELIKOFF'S studies? A. KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES (612) 922-1955 PG l n 5b 15 56 16 5b 17 57 2 89 13 SELIKOFF* . Q. Langer, Wolff, p.o'nl and , llchl and Selikoff? a . C.' That's ths same Dr. that this is a journal that that were published in SELIKOFF? A. Selikoff. SELIKOFF. Q. That's SELIKOFF you were speaking SELIKOFF and soma of his SELIKOFF'3 papers. Q. PG U m 42 2 97 1 97 17 97 19 97 23 97 24 97 25 SEXTON* . 0. Hoitf about Dr. R. J. the Medical Director, Dr. , Exhibit 27 is a letter from he is submitting -- that Dr. Q. And is that also by by Sexton? A. It's by Dr. by Or. Sexton. Q. Dr. SEXTON? A. He was the SEXTON, to his supervisor, SEXTON to Giambruno dated SEXTON is submitting a SEXTON? A. It's by Dr. SEXTON. Q. Dr. Sexton SEXTON of Union Carbide? PG LN SIMS* PG LN SKOGLUND* PG LN SLEEVE* PG Lil 36 1 39 4 SMITH* it was headed by Dr. H. F. a lot of fellows. Henry SMITH, Junior. SMITH was the Second in PG LN SMITH* PG 141 SORENSON* PG LN .?AFFORD* PG LN SPENCER* PG LN STACK* PG LN STERIOSCOPE* KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES " (612) 922-1955 , ^ ^ ; ^ ^ , . v * *.wv. PG Lu OVERLING* -, ' " PG LN rOQAEUS* ' ; PG Li.'} 3YK0RA* ' PG LJ TGM* ; PG LIT 34 21 THOMPSON* of the work of Newhouse ana THOMPSON at the London PG LJ THURER* PG LJ 79 19 TIMBRELL* that request, was that Dr. TIM3RELL? ' A. I think PG LJ TLV* PG LN TOOKEY* PG LN TREMOLITE* PG LN TUFFLEX* PG LIT UCAR* PG LN 54 23 ULTRABESTOS* known as Johns-Manville ` ULTRABESTOS blu asbestos' PG LN 1 14 2 11 2 13 2 16 5 11 '5 13 9 3 UNION* * Corporation, T&N PLC, Inc., Turner-'& Newall PLC, and on behalf of Defendant and on behalf of Defendant is a lawsuit which involves you some questions concerning corporate medical director of UNION UNION UNION UNION UNION UNION UNION Carbide Carbide Carbide Carbide Carbide Carbide Carbide Corporation Corporation Corporation Corporation. and that's matters and Corporation. KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES ... (612) 9 2 2 - 1 9 5 5 . . . ; PG LN 9 15 9 21 11 a11 20 12 3 12 13 3 15 i 17 l 17 24 id 2 Id 3 19 1 19 16 20 10 22 11 22 23 24 7 26 10 27 19 27 21 28 15 23 25 29 10 29 14 29 25 30 2 30 12 30 20 30 22 30 25 31 9 32 2 34 2 34 16 34 24 35 13 35 14 35 16 35 13 35 21 36 5 36 19 36 21 37 11 37 14 37 20 38 10 38 12 UNION* chat the location of the tain Q. When did you bag in with Q. And did you then join Union Carbide? A. Joinad in the medical department at assistant medical director of 0. During your years at , if I can use that tern, at he is no longer working at to the medical department at of the medical department for in the corporate offices of with medical problems in the example. Let's say a , if the question came from a hygiene and toxicology in doctors or not, at other you mean, would you visit all doctor kept them. Q. Did department, that is the department. Q. So the do. Q. Is ha still at Q. Was it done because the cancer, a recognition at there a recognition at the , the overseas divisions of Did tha overseas divisions of Falls research facility of do- with the asbestos group at Q. Was. there anyona at the related matters or for the '68 to '79. Q. Did tha to 300 books. Q. Did the at the medical department of references. Q. Did the the medical department of research actually dona by this research commissioned by . ? A. Commissioned by people. Q. Now, did Institute. Q. And which (1._ During what years did research commissioned by the years you worked at a fellowship; for example, fellowship. And when in 1938 Q. . And what years did laboratories. Q. Now, the that was always filled by UNION Carbide medical UNION Carbide? A. UNION Carbide? A. UNION Carbide in 1947. UNION Carbide through the UNION Carbide Corporation UNION Carbide up through UNION Carbide7 'A. UNION Carbide? A. No, UNION Carbide. At that UNION Carbide Corporation UNION Carbide7 A. . UNION Carbide plant around UNION Carbide division in UNION Carbide facility UNION Carbide facilities UNION Carbide locations7 UNION Carbide facilities UNION Carbide keep them UNION Carbide medical UNION Carbide medical UNION Carbide? A. No, UNION Carbide medical UNION Carbide's medical UNION Carbide medical . UNION Carbide, did they UNION Carbide have their UNION Carbide have its own UNION Carbide? A. Not UNION Carbide medical UNION Carbide asbestos UNION Carbide medical UNION Carbide medical UNION^Carbide? MR. UNION Carbide medical UNION Carbide during the UNION Carbide medical UNION Carbide and done by UNION Carbide and done by UNION Carbide personnel do UNION Carbide personnel UNION Carbide conduct UNION Carbide at any UNION Carbide7 A. I UNION Carbide had a UNION Carbide decided they UNION Carbide have the UNION Carbide chemical UNION Carbide's personnel KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES (612) 922-1955 '*' LU UNION* i J you know if he ever held the UNION Carbide industrial 1 some of the fellows at the UNION Carbide industrial '* Urboano Pozzani, was he a UNION Carbide industrial 15 ' A. Yes. Q. Is there a UNION Carbide plant there i.J A. Jo. 0. 'Was he within UNION Carbide somewhere3 17 Now, was there a policy among UNION Carbide plants 18 than King City, wherefor UNION Carbide facilities 25 '40s. Q. Do you know if UNION Carbide at any tine 11 . 0. Do you know if the UNION Carbide medical 11 know if in that time period UNION Carbide issued any 19 was up to the employer, not UNION Carbide. Q. Do 3 a document that's entitled " UNION Carbide Material . 5 to the Calidria asbestos by UNION Carbide? A. No, 10 you just spoke about where UNION Carbide said what 25 , do you know what the UNION Carbide material 6 talking about what notices UNION Carbide gave to . 10 notices that were issued by UNION Carbide to customers 20 and ask is you if this is a UNION Carbide information 20 No way. Q. Do you know if UNION Carbide mined any 24 of. Q. Do you know if UNION Carbide sold any 5 that wasn't Calidria that UNION Carbide didn't mine 9 idea. Q. Are you aware of UNION Carbide ever 15 is a study being done of UNION Carbide Calridia RG 5 . Q. And do you know if UNION Carbide ever 13 of any other studies that UNION Carbide commissioned 17 they ware commissioned by UNION Carbide or not, on 13 Institute personnel who were UNION Carbide employees, 22 mining and metals division of UNION Carbide in Tuxedo, 2 a'publication put out by the UNION Carbide Corporation13 3 , who was a customer of UNION Carbide. Does that 9 low, was there any policy at UNION Carbide in the 1960s 24 ever a.policy instituted at UNION Carbide that reports 3 Was there ever a policy at UNION Carbide that reports 3 Was there ever a policy at UNION Carbide Corporation 9 reports sent to customers by UNION Carbide must contain 15 . or a document issued by UNION Carbide? MR. 19 It says that it was issued by UNION Carbide, so I 23 document was reviewed by the UNION Carbide medical 19 told in prior depositions by UNION Carbide employees 5 . Q. While you were at UNION Carbide at the 25 . Q. Do you know of any UNION Carbide customers 23 .:. _i. any tests were done by UNION Carbide to determina 1 into the pulp slurry? A. UNION Carbide did not do 3 of the user. Q. Did UNION Carbide ever tell 9 A. That's right. Q. Did UNION Carbide ever `do any 13 of the customer, UNION Carbide did not do 15 in this case shows that UNION Carbide did d 5 that sampling was done by UNION Carbide at the point 7 be surprised to find out that UNION Carbide people did KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES r (612) 922-1955. ; PG LN 77 10 77 25 73 22 79 1 >JC 9 80 10 80 13 81 i 82 82 11 82 20 64 25 85 6 86 15 87 18 88 2 38 5 83 9 92 23 93 5 97 25 100 101 3 101 14 101 16 101 20 107 10 107 12 112 8 112 9 112 10 112 14 113 4 115 14 115 17 116 5 116 8 117 8 117 18 117 22 118 1 118 6 118 9 113 13 118 18 118 23 119 5 119 10 119 20 UNION* and testing were done by it also known by you or the C. Sayers in England and with analytical assistance from organization. Q. Was a European organization. Was the British organization hygiene or toxicology from toxicology issues concerning , the introduction reads, " issues about the use of workers in London handling And do you know/ what steps point where three different in England to the use of Dr. Sayers about the use of , yes. Q. Do you know if idea. Q. Do you know if Q. Do you know, was he at he worked before he came to Sexton. 0. Dr. Sexton of research was being done by was aver communicated to . Q. One of the other Barton, described you as the it be fair to say that in the now. Belgium to Dexter, asbestos data developed by correct. Q. And these are employees? A. Those are fair to say that by 1967 the asbestos on the job? A. . Q. One of the things you some-questions about, if went into effect in 1972 if not the type of thing that sampling was being done by this general proposition that knowledge possessed by the the knowledge that was within And would you also agree that some-- time subsequent to 1947 literature searches? A. me rephrase it than. Did 1947? A. Yes. Q. Did , subsequent to 1947, did Did the knowledge that , was the first time tha;t in your opinion, that the UNION Carbide at the point UNION Carbide medical UNION Carbide U.K. Limited UNION Carbide. Q. Now UNION Carbide involved UNION Carbide would have UNION Carbide, U. K. UNION Carbide overseas UNION Carbide asbestos at UNION Carbide U.N. Limited UNION Carbide asbestos in UNION Carbide asbestos,. UNION Carbide took, if any UNION Carbide lawyers have UNION Carbide asbestos in UNION Carbide asbestos in UNION Carbide took any UNION Carbide ever advised UNION Carbide at that time UNION Carbide? A. No. UNION Carbide? A. ...... UNION Carbide with respect UNION Carbide customers? UNION Carbide employees UNION Carbide UNION Carbide company you UNION Carbide. No, I UNION Carbide 3slgium. UNION Carbide employees? UNION Carbide employees. UNION Carbide medical UNION Carbide had that UNION Carbide was doing UNION Carbide did air UNION'Carbide offered that UNION Carbide as such was UNION Carbide as a UNION Carbide, as a UNION Carbide medical UNION Carbide's possession UNION Carbide, in its UNION Carbide had the UNION Carbide used their UNION Carbide have the UNION Carbide's medical UNION Carbide have the UNION Carbide's medical UNION Carbide's medical UNION Carbide medical KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES (612) 922-1955 LM UL\1ON* 3 you agree with this, that 16 . Q. '.Jouxh you a*gree that 6 tine during your career with 23 when you cane on hoard with 8 When you came on hoard with 9 Union Carbide in 1947, did 17 , they did. Q. Vfhen did 25 to 1979 when you retired from 12 the medical department of 15 associate medical director at 21 when you came on board at l all that would indicate that 15 you retired, whether or not 19 you have any involvement with 21 ? A. I had a contract with 24 . Q. Have you served 3 , but have you ever served for 10 being asserted by workers of 3 1 will read you an answer to 16 was Barelite marketed by 12 ? A. Are you talking about lo A. All of the products that 17 some sort of a labie on it. 14 of asbestos produced by 10 And, Doctor, as far as the 21 knowing information from the 15 any good to warn a user of 1 the word cancer over used by 19 Dr. Lane, by the way, leave 9 with this, that as of 1960 17 also agree that as of 1960 21 also agree that as of 1960 25 And in your opinion would 19 training program offered by 21 within the employ of 25 met with your attorneys from l at. Q. When you left 20 types of gaskets. Q. has 18 30 you were never informed by x9 far as you can recall, about 12 HR. POLKs The lawyers for 17 co-do anything to prejudice 12 JONES: Fine on behalf of 15 , I want to make sure that UKI03 Carbide gained soma UNION Carbide was a UNION Carbide? A. Mot UNION Carbide in 1947 that UMION Carbide in 1947, did UNIONCarbide have an UNION Carbide first UNION Carbide, would you UNION Carbide' A. "*I UNION Carbide, did there UNION Carbide you UNION Carbide ever did a UNION Carbide ever did any UNION Carbide as a UNION Carbide from 1979 to UNION Carbide as an UNION Carbide as an UNION Carbide for asbestos UNION Carbide's ' UNION Carbide in granular UNION Carbide toxicology UNION Carbide sold had UNION Carbide had what UNION Carbide, were those UNION Carbide asbestos is UNION Carbide industrial UNION Carbide asbestos UNION Carbide in UNION Carbide? A. Gee, UNION Carbide had experts UNION Carbide had the UNION Carbide had within UNION Carbide's expertise UNION Carbide concerning UNION Carbide at any time? UNION Carbide, is that UNION Carbide in 1979, did UNION Carbide, to your . UNION Carbide, at least as UNION Carbide going to the UNION Carbide would like UNION Carbide to take your UNION Carbide. hr. UNION Carbide is taking ^ ... i . 4 ^ ; i LN VESSEL* KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES (612) 922-1955 PS LN VIDEEW* PG Lji VU* PG LN ViALDER* . PG LN .VALUER* PG LH. WLDER* . PG LN WALSH* PG LN WAPPES* PG LN 36 3 WEIL* , and statistician, Caroli WEIL. I don't remember PG LN We l s e s * - PG LN 22 7 WELSH* directors in there, Dr. John WELSH was the corporate PG LN WEYERHAEUSER* PG LN WICKMAN* f - PG LN 111 1 WILLARD* April 28, 1967, to D. C. WILLARD from Bert Murray. PG LN . WILSOIL* PG LN 56 15 WOLFF* No, I don't. Q. . Langer, WOLFF, Rohl and SeliXoff? KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES (612) 922-1955. ' PC i-*l< viOmPUS* . ( r^ PG Ill'S WOOLERY* 62 16 by the name of Robert G. WOOLERY? A. Robert G. 62 17 G. hcoiery? A. 'Robert G v/OOLERY' Q. : 62 16 Robert G. Woolery? Q ' W-O-O-L- E-R-Y. A. No, 63 9 Paper" by Robert G WOOLERY. A. Well, this 63 11 prepared by Robert G* UOCLERY, but what happened 4 15 for someone such as Mr. WOOLERY to issue a PG Lil 167 10 WRAP* meeting. I am going to be WRAPPED up in that from PG LN YOUNG* r * c KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES (612) 922-1955 ^ 1 New York City at the corporate offices on Park Avenue? A. Right. Q. During your years at Union Carbide up through 1979, did you ever attend any conferences or symposia or proceedings which had anything to do with asbestos? A. I did. Q* What and where were those? A* 1 really can't remember. * Q. Can you remember any of them? A. I can't give you any dates, but I know that I 11 attended some that were conducted by Dr. Selikoff' and at 12 least one that was conducted by the, I guess, New York 13 State Industrial Hygiene Department. 14 Q* And do you recall which conferences you 15 attended which were conducted by Dr. Selikoff? 16 ' A.' No, I really don't. 17 Q. Do you recall where those conferences were 13 held? * 19 A. In New York, as I recair. 20 Q. Were they at Mount Sinai Hospital"? 21 A. One of them was. 22 Q. Were those conferences at which you attended 23 by Dr. Selikoff conferences conducted by the New York 24 Academy of Sciences? ... 25 A. I really don't remember. ' > "ifs*--.**'''4V **... * - . *v * * KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES ' <612> 9 2 2 - i 9 5 . ... 'V 1 Q. Do you recall the topics under discussion at 2 those conferences with Dr. Selikoff?. t . .... ! .3 A. My recollection would be they were the general . /' 4 types of hazards associated with asbestos and some research 5 reports on some of Selikoff's work. 6 Q. Do you remember any of the other speakers at 7 those conferences other than Dr. Selikoff himself? 3 A. No, not really. * 9 Q. Do you know if either of the Dr. McDonalds 10 were involved. Dr. A. V. or a Corbit McDonald? How about 11 Dr. Wagner from South Africa, do you know if he had any 12 involvement? 13 A. I don't believe I ever heard him. 14 Q. How about a doctor named Arthur Rohl, do you 15 know if he was involved? 16 A. I don't remember. 17 Q. How about a doctor named Langer? 18 .... A. 1 don't remember. 19 Q. When did you first hear df the work of Dr. . 20 Selikoff, do you recall that? 21 A. Yes, it was during the testimony before the 22 Senate committee when OSHA was being formed. Dr. Selikoff 23 testified immediately or a short time before I did and he 24 used the asbestos -- the observations he had made in 25 asbestos workers as the pressing point for an OSHA law. KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES (612) 922-1955 -. ..w. _________ ;______ ;______________ I f 1 Q. Do you remember when that was? 2 3 , A. The best I could remember it would have to be '/ 9 ' - ` . ' " . ' ''' i' ' in the late '60s or early '70s. 4 Q. Do you recall where this Senate hearing took 5 place? 6 A. Washington, D.C.. 7 Q. Was it some particular committee or ' 3 subcommittee of the Senate, do you recall? ' 9 A. I don't recall that. I know it was in one of 10 the hearing rooms in the Senate office building. 11 Q. Do you, remember any of the Senators who were 12 present? 13 A. I am sorry, I don't. The only one that rings c 14 any kind of a bell, and I don't remember his name, and he 15 was from New Jersey and he was one of the Democrats and one 16 o f `the pressing members of the issue. 17 Q. When did you first.become involved in any way 13 with the asbestos group, if I can use that term, at Union 19 Carbide? * 20 A. I would have to say in certainly the '60s. 21 Q. And do you recall what that involvement was or 22 what you did at that time? 23 A. At that time there was some conferences with 24 the corporate medical director and the asbestos production c 25 people at which we discussed their plans for the production .. . . .. . . -V ' vi---' "* . .. - - -- ! I KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES~ - " (612) 9 2 2 - 1 9 5 5 + ________________ ________________________ of asbestos. 2 Q. Now, when you say asbestos production people, 3 are-these the people at King City, California, is that what 4 we are speaking about hare? 5 A* At that time they were the people in the Mew 6 offices who were working on the concept of going into 7 the mining of asbestos at King City. . 3 Q. So if we could put this in context, it sounds 9 like the King City deposit, the Coalinga deposit, had been 10 discovered and now there was some discussions as to going 11 into production, is that about the time frame we are in? 12 A. That's about it. 13 Q. Were there any written reports or documents 14 produced as a result of those discussions? 15 A. I really don't know. i Q Who were the asbestos production people, if i 17 can use that term, who were involved in the discussions? 18 A. I have no recollection. 19 Q. Do you recall why the meical director and 20 yourself were involved in the discussions? 21 A. Because that was standard procedure within the 22 corporation, that when we were about to embark upon a new 23 manufacturing activity early in the planning stages the 24 corporate medical department was brought into the picture. ' 25 Q., Who was the corporate medical director at that ' " " J. ' KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES ~ " (612) 922-1955 '" V-. } .''.X ' 1 time who was involved in the discussions? A. Dr. Thomas Nale. Q. Is Dr. Nale still around? 4 A. He is dead. 5 Q. Other than yourself and Dr. Nale, do you 6 recall any other people from the medical department 7 involved in those discussions? ' 8 A. At that time I think there was just the two of 9 us. Excuse me. There was one other who was involved at 10 that time and that was our chief industrial hygienist, Paul 11 McDaniel. ' 12 Q. Is Mr. McDaniel still around? 13 A. I really don't know. 14 Q. Do you know if he is alive? . r;i 15 A. He was two years ago. Whether he still is, I 16 don't know. 17 Q. I take it from your answer that he is no 18 longer working at Union Carbide? 19 A. No, he retired a number of years ago. - 20 Q. Do you know where he was as of a couple of 21 years ago? 22 A. I think he was at Rochester, New York. 23 Q* Let me go back to the year 1955 when you moved 24 to New York City to the medical department at Unioh Carbide. 25 At that point in time I want to ask you about the medical ; " r-r-v KIRBY A. KENNEDY ASSOCIATES (612) 922-1955Xt\!v^^ *' . >. -* department, how it was set up. I take it that the main office of the medical department for Union Carbide Corporation was in New York City at the Park Avenue address, is that right? A. We weren't in Park Avenue at that time. The medical department was situated at 300 Madison Avenue. Q. Did the medical department have its own ' facility or was that in the corporate offices of Union Carbide? A. Well, they had two medical departments in New York; they had a rather large personnel medical department, which also was responsible for supervision of overseas operations, and then the department they called the industrial medicine and toxicology department, which was comprised of two people, Dr. Nale and myself, and we were at 300 Madison. Q. Where was the personnel medical department? ' a . It was at, what was the address, let's see, it was on 42nd Street. Right around the'corner on 42nd Street Q. Now, the personnel medical department, what generally did they do or what was their function at -that time? A. : Provided medical service for p e o p l e that worked in the building, did pre-employment examine Q., And would they, for example, have anything to KIRBY A. KENNEDY fit ASSOCIATES 1 do with medical problems in the Union Carbide plant around 2 the country? 3 4/ A. No. \ Q. Was that under the auspices of you and Dr. 5 Wale? 6 A. Yes. : 7 Q. Now, thepersonnel medicaldepartment, you say, ' ' 8 also was in charge of overseas work. What was that' 9 A. Well, they did all themedical work for 10 individuals who were being sent overseas for either work 11 positions or'on trips and they received a lot of the 12 questions that came up as a result of overseas operations 13 where as they received them they were commonly passed on to 14 Dr. Nale and myself for answers. 15 Q. Let me give you a hypothetical example. Let's 16 say a Union Carbide division in Brighton in 1955 some 17 question came up about a condition in a factory, for . i 13 example. Are you telling us that that question may have 19 been conveyed to the personnel medical department who would 20 then refer it to you and Dr. Nale? 21 A. That sort of an operation, yes. 22 Q. But - 23 A. Excuse me, let me also comment on the fact 24 that without any specific directive in that direction in 25 the subsequent few years from *53 on, I would say the - . . .. ... KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES .: .; ... (612) 922-1955 - overseas operations began to respond directly to Dr. Male and myself without going through the employee medical services. Q. Wall, would it be fair to say that ultimately such questions from overseas department about toxicology or hygiene would and up in tha department of you and Dr. Wale? A. Absolutely. Q. And would that also be true about such ' questions in this country, if the question came from a Union Carbide facility here about hygiene or toxicology, that would be referred to you or Dr. Wale? " A. Yes. talking about? MR. JONES: What time period are you 1955. BY MR. BROWNSON: MR. 3R0WNS0M: I was still talking about Q. Was that true then up through 1965, that same general set up from *55 to '65? * A. From *55 to '65 I would say practically all of the overseas operations problems came to Male and myself, and all of the U.S. plant operations came to Kale and myself. Q. Now, when you were promoted to director of toxicology in 1963, was this still within the industrial KIRBY A. KENNEDY &.ASSOCIATES . (612) 922-1955 " -- i medicine and toxicology branch ^ gy ranch of the medical department? 2 A- ^ was ,,ithin the ssme framework with the 3 ception that somewhere in there, and I really don't know 4 when or where, the toxicology wee dropped from the 5 department and it mainly became the industrial medical 6 department. 7 a. But did that department still deal with 8 hygiene and toxicology questions? ` 9 A. Right. 10 a. Throughout your tenure at the New York office 11 from 1965 to 1979, were you always involved with that 12 particular aspect of the medical department? 13 : A. . Yes. . ; . ' 14 * The toxicology aspect? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q? And I take it that the namechanged from time 17 to time but the subject matter remained the same? 18 A. Correct. - 19 Q. Other than Dr. Nale and yourself, who else was 20 involved in that department while you were there through 21 '79? 22 A. Left: nee. Dr. Kenneth Lane, who was an 23 assistant medical director,* Dr. Brian Balantyne? a large 24 staff of industrial hygienists, Paul McDaniel being one, 25 Leo LaFrance. I can't remember the other two. Those are - .,'f-i+.-'-. 1-V ; - '.*"*/* . KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES : . (612) 922-1955 . T ' ; v '.-J i **.*<,**" VI''.-... _ .. "... ' the ones that I knew best. There were about four or five others. An epidemiologist by the name cf Susan Austin. There was another M.D., let's see, who was -- his name escapes me but he i3 now medical director of Cyanamid. I think that's about it. Wait a minute, I have to add one more, there was a change in corporate medical directors in there, Dr. John Welsh was the corporate medical director ' e from 1963 to 1979 when I left. Q. I think you answered this before but just so I am clear on this point, from 1955 to 1979 were questions of industrial hygiene and toxicology in Union Carbide facilities both in this country and overseas within the jurisdiction of this industrial medicine and toxicology group? A. Yes, they were. Q. And have you now given us the names of all the people you can recall who were within that group for those years, anyone else in that group that you can think of from *55 to '79? * . A. I really can't remember. . Q. Now, other than at the main medical office in New York City, were there industrial hygiene type people, whether they are medical doctors or not, at other Union Carbide locations? "* A. Yes. KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES ' (612) 922-1955 1 Q. Generally how was that set up, can you tell us? 2 A. Generally it was set up on the basis of plant 3 size and management opinion, let's put it that way, because 4 we hod -- m the chemicals operations where we had large 5 clients, lots of people, lots of hazards, we had full time 6 medical services, one or two plant physicians, and 7 industrial hygienists, and nurses. And other operations 8 where we had just as many employees but the hazards were 9 different, they were lower, we would have part-time 10 positions in the community. So every plant we had had some 11 contact with a physician who acted as the medical director 12 for that particular unit. 13 Q. How about King City, California, do you know 14 what medical personnel you had there through the years? 15 A. They had a outside consulting physician who 16 examinee their people, read their X-rays, handled any minor 17 injuries they had and so forth. 18 Q Do you know who that physician was? 19 A. I don't recall his name/ 20 Q. Was he at King City? 21 A. I am not sure, it was either King City'or 22 Monterey. I believe he was at King City. 23 Q. Have you ever been to King City? 24 A. Twice. 25 Q. When was that, do you know? : .. KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES -vV (612) 9 2 2 - 1 9 5 5 ; : ^ * ^ ? 1 A Once I believe in the middle '60s, and once I 2 think in th early '70s would be ray bast recollection. J Q. Do you recall the reason for either of those 4 visits? 5 A. Just routine. 6 Q. And by routine, what do you mean, would you 7 visit all Union Carbide facilities on some rotating basis? * 8 ' A. *.Tnen it was convenient to do so, yes. 9 Q. Do you recall when you v/ent to Xing City on 10 either of those visits what you did there? ' 11 A. I met with the physician and reviewed a bunch 12 of X-rays with him. I went down to the plant and made a 13 plant tour. And I went out to the mine site and observed 14 some of the mining operations and I' had an industrial 15 hygienist with me. Following the completion of our survey 16 we-met with the management and gave them our opinions of 17 the status. 18 Q. Do you recall what your opinions were of the 19 'status on either occasion? ' - 20 A. One thing that was of concern to us was the 21 ore pile, which was being allowed to dry out and becoming 22 rather dusty and we were concerned about that as a dust 23 hazard. And we were a bit concerned about certain 24 maintenance activities which were allowing some of `the 25 ventilation equipment to deteriorate a little bit more than wa would liks to see. so there were some leaks in ventilation equipment* main concerns. That's my recollection of our two Q. Did you recognize at the time of the first visit that asbestos dust could be in any way hazardous to human health? A. Yes, we knew that. Q. Is that one of the things you were looking for on the visit? A. Yes. Q. Was there any recognition at the time' of the first visit that asbestos dust in some form and some dose could cause cancer? A. Well, wa were concerned with thedisease asbestosis. Q. At the time of the first visit in the mid-1960s had you heard of the disease mesothelioma? A. I really can't recall just exactly when I did first hear of that disease. - Q. Do you know when King City began, the King City facility, began taking chest X-rays from employees? A. -- As-- far as I know day one. Q. Was that at your directive? A. That was at that time the directive of Dr. Nale who is the corporate medical director. .v KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES (6i2) 2 * - % ? . 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 3 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 .21 22 23 24 25 y. What was the policy for chest X-rays of employees at King City, was it an X-ray or some other -- A. My recollection is it was annual. Q. City? This was done by this outside doctor at King A. Yes. Q. Were those annual chest X-rays of employees then kept on file somewhere? A. As far as I know, the doctor kept them. Q. Did Union Carbide keep them anywhere? A. iio. Q. At any time up through 1979, or even after that time, if you are aware of it, do you know if any epidemiological study has been done of employees at the King City facility? A. I don't believe so. Q. Do you know if there has been any screening or review of X-rays other than on a case-by-case basis for those employees? - A. There was a time, I don't remember exactly when it was, but we did have a large number of X-rays reviewed by a .spec ia-11st in reading X-rays for dust * exposure to make sure that the local people were not missing anything. Q. Do you know when this was? ' 4 : , -- : - .- - rx'iv.kaa'"* ' ' " KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES ' ' 2-1 1 \A. I really can't recall. 2 Q. Do you know where this reading took place? 3 A. I don't remember that either. 4 Q. Do you remember who the exoart was? 3 A. I don't remember that either. 6 Q. Do you recall if ha was a so-called B reader' 7 A. I believe that's why he was selected. 8 Q. Do you know if he was a radiologist? 9 A. I believe he was a radiologist. 10 Q. Do you know where the records or reports or 11 findings of this screening would be located? 12 A. Ho, I do not. 13 Q. Do you know if any written report or findings 14 was ever prepared from that screening? 15 A. I can't recall. 16 Q. Do you know at whose instance the screening 17 was done or whose request the screening was done? 18 A. I think it was done at the request of 19 personnel in the medical department, that is the Union 20 Carbide medical department. 21 Q. So the Union Carbide medical department at New 22 York? -- -------- ' 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. Now, other than -- 25 A. Incidentally, I was not involved in that phase KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES (612) _922-1955'-:`< *?***:"t- : 1 of tnings. I saw it from the side but at that time Dr. 2 Lane was doing most of the coverage of the Xing City 3 -\ operations. 4 j. So this X-ray reading or screening or whatever 5 you wane to call it would have been dona at the direction o of Dr. Lane? 7 A. Probably at Dr. Lane's request. 3 Q. Do you know if Dr. Lane actually went out to 9 King City to set things up or -- 10 A. 11 Q. J 12 A. 13 Q. Is it he or she? 14. . . A. He. 15 Q. Is he still at Union Carbide? 16 A. No, he is retirad. 17 0. Do you know where he is located? 18 A. Bartiesville, Oklahoma. 19 , Q. 20 employees .21 .... A. 22 of confid that we had not observed any 23 problems 24 we weren' 25 Q. t *- > . . ;&C KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES (612) 922-1955 1 department at that time recognized that exposure to 2 asbestos dust in some dose could cause disease? 3 MR. JONES: Object to the form of the 4 question as argumentative. You can go ahead and answer, 5 Doctor. 6 A. We knew that before they ever started mining - 7 asbestos. 3 Q. Was there a recognition at the time this X-ray 9 study was done that exposure to asbestos could cause cancer, 10 a recognition at Union Carbide's medical department that 11 asbestos exposure could cause cancer? ' 12 A. At the time that that review was done we knew 13 of Selikoff's studies with regard to cancer and asbestos. 14 Q. Was there a recognition at the Union Carbide 15 medical department at the time that X-ray study was done 16 that asbestos could cause mesothelioma? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. Was that recognition gained from Dr. 19 Selikoff's work or from soma-other source? 20 A. I would say that Dr. Selikoff's work was the 21 moving force behind the knowledge that there was an 22 association-between--asbestos exposure and cancer. 23 Q. And by cancer would you include mesothelioma? 24 A. Yes. . 25 Q. . Now, the overseas divisions of Union Carbide, *. V ... v\ . . / ' , * - I KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES t (612) 9 2 2 - 1 9 5 . 5 . ^ ^ ^ ^ mm. 3P 1 did they have their own medical departments or would all 2 hygiene -- stop there. Did the overseas divisions of Union 3 Carbide have their own medical department? 4 A. Yes, they did. 5 : Q. Would questions of toxicology and hygiene at 6 overseas facilities be handled by those medical departments 7 or would they all come to flew York? , 8 A. This would be handled by those medical 9 departments with the New York operation being the source of 10 expert knowledge if they needed it. 11 Q. Did the Niagara Falls research facility of 12 Union Carbide have its own medical personnel at any time 13 while you were with the company? 14 A. We did have a full time medical director at 15 the electro metalurgical group in Niagara Falls in 1955. 16 It goes back earlier than that. I guess the medical 17 director probably was hired about the same time 1 was in '47 18 and he stayed on at Niagara Falls Falls until maybe 1960. 19 Q. Did he have anything to do with the asbestos 20 group at Union Carbide? 21 A. Not that I recall. . 22 . Q. -- W as there- anyone at the Union Carbide medical %. 23 department in New York City who had responsibility at one 24 time or another for asbestos related matters or for the 25 Union Carbide asbestos group?. ..; ...... _ : ` " " KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES V ' . (612) 922-1955,7 1 A. In the medical department? 2 Q* Yes. . , . / , 3 A. It would be Dr. Lane. ' 4 Q. Do you recall what period of years Dr. Lane 5 dealt with that topic? 6 A. Not specifically. I would say probably from 7 the late -- probably the last ten years that I was there, 3 about *68 to '79. 9 Q. Did the Union Carbide medical department in 10 New York City have a medical library? ' 11 A. Nothing more than the books that we ourselves 12 kept in our home. 13 Q. Did it subscribe to any medical journals or 14 periodicals? .... 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. Do you recall which medical journals or 17 periodicals?....... 18 A. British Medical Journal was one. Journal of 19 Occupational Health, American Hygiene Medical Journal was 20 another, Archives of Industrial Health was another. We had 21 a complete set of the Journal of Industrial Hygiene and 22 Toxicology._Wait a minute now. I will have to qualify an 23 answer I gave you earlier when you asked me did we have a 4 24 library, I had forgotten the fact, yes, we did have a 25 library, That's where we kept all of these journals and a - . KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES (612) 922-1955 * "` ' - 77 1 collection of approximately 250 to 300 books. 2 Q. Did the Union Carbide medical department j subscri^be to ) the publication Nature? . . . . . . . v 4 A." I don't believe so. . i I 5 0. How about Lancette? i 6 A. Lancette, yes. 7 0. ilow about the New England Journal of Medicine? 8 A. That was a personal subscription. 9 Q. To who, you? 10 A. Well, I carried it myself for a number of ' 11 years. ' 12 Q. How about Cancer? 13 A. No. 14 Q. How about the Archives of Environmental Health? 15 A. Yes. lo Q. Is that something different than the Archives 17 of Industrial Health? Are those two different publications lb because you earlier had told us that you subscribed to the 19 Archives of Industrial Health? 20 A. I guess I probably meant the one that you 21 mentioned. 22 Q. The Archives of Environmental Health' 23 A. The Archives of Environmental Health. 24 Q. There also is a Journal of Archives of 25 Industrial Health. .... KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES (612) 922-19J 3? 1 A. As a matter of fact, I believe we had both of 2 them because the Archives of Industrial Health, as I recall, A( . _- ' j was a continuation of the Journal of Industrial Hygiene and 4 Toxicology. 5 0. How about the publication entitled Chest? b A. No. 7 Q. How about the Canadian Medical Association 8 Journal? 9 A. No. 10 Q. The British Journal Cancer? 11 A. No. 12 Q. The publication entitled American Review of 13 Respiratory Disease? 14 A. No. 15 Q. The publication entitled Environmental 16 Research? 17 A. No. 18 Q. How about the Annals of the New York Academy 19 of Sciences? - 20 A. I think we had some of those but not all of 2! them. 22 Q. ho v-nnu if you had the issues dealing with 23 any of Dr. Selikoff's studies? 24 A. I think we did. 25 Q. What was' the purpose for maintaining this . ` KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES < (612) 922-1955 v A 1 medical library and subscribing to these medical journals 2 at the medical department of Union Carbide? 3 HR. JONES: Object on the grounds of 4 foundation . Go ahead and answer. 5 A. Reference work. 6 Q. And were these used by yourself and the other 7 medical personnel at the medical department? | 8 A. These and other sources# yes. 9 Q. What were the other sources? Were there other 10 medical libraries that your department used? 11 A. Yes. ' 12 Q. What were those? 13 A. New York Academy of Medicine Library. I guess 14 that would be the primary other source for medical 15 references. ' r ' ' 16 Q. Did the Union Carbide medical department. 17 during the years you were there from `55 to *79, do its own 18 research into either industrial hygiene or toxicological 19 issues? - 20 A. Yes, we had our own laboratory at Mellon 21 Institute in Pittsburgh. 22 Q. .Now# before I get to that, other than at the 23 Mellon Institute in Pittsburgh# was there research 24 conducted within the medical department of Union Carbide 25 during the years you were there? . rv KIRBY A. KENNEDY & .ASSOCIATES (612) 922-1955 -k-.l ^ ''L A. Yes, on occasion we participated in research done at some other locations. Q. Were any of those locations in this country? A. Yes. Q. Do you recall what they were? A. One was the C U T , Chemical Institute of Industrial Toxicology at Chapel Hill -- at Research Triangle, Research Triangle in North Carolina, ihere was some work done at some of the private consulting toxicology laboratories in Illinois and I don't remember where the others were. Q. Now, was this research at theseplaces research actually done by Union Carbide medical personnel or was this research commissioned by Union Carbide and done by these outside sources? A. Commissioned by Union Carbide and done by the outside people. Q. Now, did Union Carbide personnel do their own research? A. . Q. " At the Mellon Institute. And which Union Carbide personnel did research at the Mellott--tttst-i-fctrte in Pittsburgh? A. There was a staff of about 35 people who worked at the chemical hygiene fellowship at the Mellon Institute in Pittsburgh. At that time it was headed by Dr. * . I. ! KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES (612) 922-1955 ~ Sv H. P. Smith, Junior. Second in command was Dr. C. P. Carpenter, and an inhalation specialist Urboano Pozzani, and statistician, Caroll Weil. I don't remember the other names. Q. , During what years did Union Carbide conduct research at the Mellon Institute? 7 A. From about 1938 through the present. Wait a 8 minute, I shouldn't say through the present any more 9 because I guess just about the time I left they severed 10 their relationship with Mellon and they maintained a 11 laboratory as their own corporate toxicology laboratory. 12 Q. And is that corporate toxicology laboratory 13 still in existence? 14 A. To the best of my knowledge, yes. ; ^ 15 Q. Where is that? 16 A. I am not sure whether it's either Bush Run 17 outside of Pittsburgh or up in Weschester County, New York 18 at -- I have forgotten the name of the place now. 19 Q. Was medical research commissioned by Union 20 Carbide at any facilities overseas during the years you 21 worked at Union Carbide? 22 A.* t t-h-ink. I am not certain about this, but I 23 believe that they had one study conducted by a British 24 research laboratory but I do not remember the name of the 25 laboratory. s. KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES (612) - . . - - ' I '[..-'tif' 1 Q. We will maybe talk about that a little later. 2 Let ate back up to another topic. Let me ask you a little 3 bit about the Mellon Institute because I don't know much 4 about it. Is this part of Carnegie Mellon University or is 5 this another institution? 6 A. Mellon Institute was an organization founded 7 by the Mellon interests as a independent research center 3 run by the Mellon Institute in supporting a number of 9 different fellowships. Various corporations would contract 10 with the Mellon Institute for a fellowship; for example. 11 Union Carbide had a chemical fellowship there where a lot 12 of the basic research in chemical processes was being done, 13 and this was prior to the formation of the chemical hygiene 14 fellowship. And when in 1938 Union Carbide decided they 15 had to learn more about the toxicology of their products, 16 they established what they called the chemical hygiene 17 fellowship. And since they already had had chemical 18 fellowships at Mellon, they established this chemical 19 hygiene fellowship at Mellon- 20 Q. And what years did Union Carbide have the 21 chemical hygiene fellowship at Mellon Institute? 22 A. -- As-xong-os Mellon Institute existed. And 23 sometime, I would guess sometime in the '60s, the Mellon 24 Institute was taken over by -- well# let me put it this way, 25 that the Mellon interests were taken over by Carnegie ' ., - --' KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES ~ > (612) 922-r955 ' 1 University and at that time was formed the Carnegie Mellon 2 University. 4 5 6 7 3 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q. Okay. A. The Institute people and activities then fell under the umbrella of Carnegie Mellon University. And they stayed there up until the late '70s or very early '30s when Carbide decided, because of administrative problems with ' 4 the University, to withdraw their fellowship and establish their own laboratories. Q. Now, the Union Carbide chemical hygiene fellowship, was that a fellowship that was always filled by Union Carbide's personnel or would that be open to others? A. All the people that worked there were-- this was a peculiar situation. They were paid by the Mellon Institute or Carnegie Mellon University, but they had all the rights and benefits of Carbide employees so that we always considered them as Carbide employees. Q. And did Carbide provide thefellowship that were paid out through the University? A. That's correct.. funds . Q. So the actual reimbursements for these people came through Carbide or directly through the University' A. Correct. Q. And during the years that the industrial hygiene fellowship was in existence at the Mellon Institute KIRBY A. KENNEDY 6 ASSOCIATES Vh- (612) 922-1955 * ^ . 1 *** there always ono fellow or were there sometimes nobody 2 or sometimes more than one or how did that work? 3 A. Well, I guess there were always a lot of 4 fellows. Henry Smith was the administrative fellow, and c, 5 P. Carpenter was the assistant administrative fellow, and 6 the others I guess would just be classified as fellows. 7 Q. Wow, C. P. Carpenter, is that Charles P. 8 Carpenter? 9 A. Right. 10 Q. How about Edwin R. Kinkead, was he a fellow? 11 A. Kinkead came along later. I don't know what 12 his status was. 13 14 - Q. Do you know if he ever held the Union Carbide industrial hygiene fellowship at any time? 15 A. I don't know if he was ever classed as a 16 fellow there or not. He may have been. I don't recall. 17 Q. Was he kind of a lower echelon researcher? 18 A. He was not one of the top guys. 19 Q. I assume that the fellows had staffs of - 20 technicians or researchers or whatever who worked for them-5 21 A. Yes. - 22 Q. So everyone who worked there would not 23 necessarily be a fellow, is that correct? 24 A. That's correct. ' 25 Q* Do you remember, in any event, that Edward KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES f \ 1P I 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Kinkead worked for some of the fellows at the Union Carbide industrial hygiene fellowship? A. 1 don't know what Kinkead did. C. How about Urboano Pozzani, was he a Union Carbide industrial hygiene fellow? A. Yes. Q. liow about Charles C. Haun, do you recall him? A. Yes, Haun was one of the later guys that came in in the middle '60s probably. Q. How about John M. King? A. Also. - Q. He was also under that fellowship? A. He was in the fellowship, yes. Q. Now, I am going to get into this a little later but I wanted to ask you now, in one of the reports issued by the Mellon Institute it has attached a mailing list and we are going to look at this a little later, but what I wanted to ask you is it talks about what seems to be medical department and it says Number .4, Dr. C* Dernehl. Was your department called Department 4? A. No, it was on the fourth floor of the building. Q. Actually I think in this particular case it may mean that you got four copies? A. That's also possible. - Q. Let me give you some other names. There is an KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES (612) 9 2 2 - 1 9 ^ . ^ : ^ 1 2. 0. Hull. I don11 know if is he a doctor. 2 A. He is. -J Q. Was he in your department? 4 . A. No, he was the medical director of the plant 5 in South Charleston for a number of years and then in the 6 last five, six, eight years he was listed as the medical 7- director of the chemicals division. ` a Q. There would he be located? 9 A. South Charleston. 10 Q. Did they have their own medical department at 11 South Chari aston? - 12 A. Yes, they did. 13 Q. That's West Virginia? 14 -:A. Yes. 15 Q. tnera a Union Carbide plant there of some 16 sort? 17 A. A very large plant in South Charleston. 18 Q. Does that have a name? 19 A - South Charleston plant. * - 20 Q. How about Dr. R. E. Joyner? 21 A. Dr. Joyner took my place at Texas City when I 22 went to New York. 23 a. During the 1960s was he located in Texas City, 24 do you know? . ' ; . - ' ** t. 25 A. Part,of the time; He left sometime in the '60s KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES * . (612) 922-1955 ^ 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 18 20 21 22 23 24 25 and became medical director for Shall Oil. . Q* How about Dr. R. j. Saxton? A. He was the medical director of the chemicals plant at Institute, West Virginia. 0. That's tha name I was thinking of. Dr. F. E. Medford? How about A. Medford. Q. A. believe. He may not be a doctor, F. E. Medford? I think he is. He was after my time, I Q. Do you know where he was located? . A. Ho. Q. Was he within Union Carbide somewhere'' A. I am not sure. Q. Do you know where the research and development department library was located? A. South Charleston, West Virginia. Q * How about N. H. Ketcham? A. He was the chemical division chief industrial hygienist. Q* He was where. South Charleston? A. South Charleston. MR. JONES: Would this be a good time to taka a brief break? . MR. BROWNSON: I think it would. / - .. - *** Sy * " ` KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES - (612) 9 2 2 - 1 9 5 5 . * T t -* .. av ,T . X 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 13 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 (At this time a brief recess was taken.) 3Y 3R. BAOWNSON: . . Q. You mentioned earlier, Or. Dernehl, that the chest X-rays of workers at King City were done at day one do you mean day one of production at King City' A. At the time they were hired. Q. Does that go back to the time that King City started production? * A. That would be about the time that the first people were hired. Q. Wnen was that, do you remember, that production started? v ... A. I don't remember. Ci* Do you recall it being around 1963? A. The best I could say it would probably be sometime in the early '60s. Q. Tow, was there a policy among Union Carbide plants elsewhere, other than King City, wherefor Union Carbide facilities that employees have annual chest X--rays A. Yes. Q. Where else? A. All of them. Q. When did that policy begin? A. I would say probably in the early '40si. Q.' Do you know if Union Carbide at any time KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES (612) 922-1955 H* 1 instituted a policy wherein it would advise its customers 2 of asbestos that their workers ought to have annual chest 3 X-rays? 4 MR. JONES; Could you read the question 5 oack 6 7 3 {At this time the requested portion of the transcript was read aloud by the Court ' Reporter.) 9 MR. JONES; Thank you. 10 A. I don't recall that Carbide ever advised any 11 of their customers on the specific steps that should be 12 followed in protecting their people against the hazards of 13 a material is the best day way I can express it, which in 14 effect says that we did not tell -- I do not recall that we 15 told people specifically that their people should have a 16 chest X-ray at regular intervals, although it is entirely 17 possible that customers may have been told this by sales 18 and marketing people with whom they dealt, that as far as . * 19 the medical department is concerned we did not issue any 20 directives to customers that they should have an annual 21 X-ray on their people. ' 22 Q. Did the medical department issue any 23 directives to sales and marketing people that customers 24 should be advised about annual chest X-rays for their 25 workers? . . a..: : KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES . * (612) 9 2 2 - i m . .*/ * 1 A. Joe that I Know of. . _ 2 Q. Now, are you familiar with the 03HA standard 3 concerning asbestos in the work place which took effect in 4 1972? 5 A. I am hardly familiar with it. I think I read 6 through it once back wnan it first came out. 7 Q. I am not asking you at this point if you know 8 what it says, 1 am just asking you if you know that 03HA in 9 1972 issued it's standard for asbestos in the work place'5 10 A. I know the issue, but I don't know the date. 11 Q. Do you know if the Union Carbide medical 12 department ever issued any material for customers telling 13 customers that their workers should take any kind of 14 precautions against asbestos dust before the OSHA standard 15 came out? 16 a . Carbide issued certain materials that were 17 available to customers that would involve precautions that 18 should be taken with regard to their employees but I do not 19 recall what specific wording or specific precautions were 20 involved in those documents. 21 Q. Do you know if any of these documents dealt 22 specifically with the topic of asbestos dust? A. I think there were documents of that nature. 23 24 Q. How, I am talking about the time period before 25 the OSHA standards came in. Vie know there were after the -- ^ KIRBY A. KENNEDY .fit,ASSOCIATES ' '' ' , .. - (612) 922-1955 ' * ; 1 OJKA standard. 2 :1R. JONES: I will object on the basis he 3 said he didn't know when the OSHA standard came in. Can 4 you give him a date? 5 THE WITNESS: He did, *72. 6 BY MR. BR0WNS0N: . 7 a. Just so my question is clear, let me start 8 over. Confining ourselves to the time period before the 9 asbestos OSHA standard came out. 10 A. All right. 11 . Do you know if in that time period Union 12 Carbide issued any literature or notice to customers as to 13 how to protect their employees from asbestos dust? 14 A. I would have to say that they did not issue, 15 to the best of my knowledge, information on how the 16 employees were to be protected but I am reasonably sure 17 that they would have issued information on what the 13 employee'should be protected against. How the employee 19 provided that protection was up to th employer, not Union 20 Carbide. 21 Q. Do you know what form these directives or 22 these notices took? 23 A. My best recollection would be they would be in 24 product bulletins and material safety data sheets, if there 25 was one on asbestos at that time, and in toxicology studies. KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES (612) 922-1955 -V-' ` 1 -- 1 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 13 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q. I am going to show you what has been marked as Dernehl Deposition Exhibit 9, it's a document that's entitled "Union Carbide Material Safety Data Sheet". Is that the type of sheet you just referred to? A. ihat s the type of a sheet I am referring to. Q. Okay. A. But it's incomplete. 4 Q. Because there is only one page there? A. That's right. Q. Let me show you what's been marked as Dernehl Deposition Exhibit 10 and ask you if this is a complete copy of that document? MR. GOLDBERG: what is the title? Just for the record, Bob, THE WITNESS: "Refind Chrysotile Asbestos, Product Specifications, Descriptions, Uses." A. What is the date on this? Q. There is a September *72 date up on the top. A. I nave not seen this material safety data sheet. It was not made in my department. Q. Well, the questions I am asking right how, Dr. Dernehl, are not about the contents of this particular material safety data sheet, I am just asking if this is the form or the type of material safety data sheet that* you referred to earlier? KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES vr< (612) 922-1955 1 A. This is a version or revision of the material 2 safety data sheet that we used for other products. 3 Q. Do you know when the first material safety 4 data sheets were issued with respect to the Calidria 5 asbestos by Union Carbide? 6 A. No, I don't remember when. 7 Q. Did the medical department have anything to do 8 with providing the information on the material safety data 9 sheets which dealt with Calridia asbestos? 10 A. If the material safety data sheet was prepared 11 in our medical department then we had an input into it. As 12 I indicated, I have not seen this particular material 13 safety data sheet before. It was issued, apparently, by 14 the asbestos people or the mining and metals people because 15 it came out of Niagara Falls. And I don't recall ever 16 having seen it before. 17 Q. And you are referring now to Dernehl Exhibit 18 10, for the record? 19 A. Yes, sir. ........ ' 20 Q. Now, you mentioned earlier that customers were 21 not told what steps to take to protect their workers from 22 asbestos dust but they were told what the workers should be 23 protected from, is that a fair statement? 24 A. That's correct. 25 q .> - And look at the particular material safety ' KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES (612) 922-1955 1 safety data sheet said about asbestos? 2 A. First of all, I don't recall whether there was 3 one prior to this date and I would not recall what it said 4 without seeing the document. 5 Q. Now, we had earlier been talking about what 6 notices Union Carbide gave to their customers about 7 protection of customer's workers from dust. Other than the 8 notices, which are headed material safety data, such as we 9 see in Exhibit 10, were there other types or forms of 10 notices that were issued by Union Carbide to customers? 11 A. Product bulletins would be one. This is a -- 12 this is one type of a product bulletin. There were 13 probably others that were put out that would have made 14 reference to the hazards of the product and precautions 15 that should be taken in handling. Another one, of course, 16 is-the label types which is put on the products which also 17 gave precautions and warnings. 13 q . I am going to show you now what has been 19 marked as Dernehl Deposition Exhibit i5 and ask is you if 20 this is a Union Carbide information bulletin of the type 21 that you just mentioned? ' 22 A. This is one such bulletin# yes. 23 Q. And my question is, look at the first page of 24 that exhibit# i t 's got this heading at the top that says, 25 "Asbestos, Product Information Bulletin." . .. ' ` . " KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES ! . (612) 922-1955 - '*. . '/ . 1 A. Yes. 2 q . Is that the type of heading that these product 3 information bulletins would carry, the ones that you have 4 mentioned? 3 A. Some of then, yes. 6 Q. liave you ever seen that particular heading 7 before? 8 A. I really don't recall. 9 Q. On the right corner ofthe heading there is 10 some kind of a logo that appears tobe a jumble offibers. 11 Do you know what that is, what that portrays? ' 12 MR. -J3N3S: Object to the 13 characterization by Counss;. lut go ahead and answer. 14 BY MR. BROWNSON 15 Q. Do you know what the logo up on the upper 16 right-hand corner of the exhibit portrays? 17 A. I am sure I don't know. All I can think of is 18 it probably refers to asbestos fibers. 19 Q. Do those look to you like a magnified picture 20 of asbestos fibers? .21 MR. JONES: Objection. 22 A . -- -ee-su$e-I don't know. 23 Q. Have you ever observed Calridia asbestos under c 24 the microscope? 25 ` A. Yes. I looked at some of the samples T -*' 'r*V .. -- .>',-f-- KIRBY A. KENNEDY &.JSOCIATES .. (612) 9 2 2 - 1 9 5 5 - *j*ifcfc*.* 1 collected by our industrial hygienists. They did not look 2 ' like that. 3 Q. V/nat did they look like, the ones that you saw? 4 A. Well, first of all, they were very short 5 fibers, not long drawn out fibers, but they were very short 6 fibers. They weren't single strands but they tended to be 7 sort of -- how could I best describe it? You could see 8 chat they seemed to be made up of bundles of very small 9 fibers of unequal length, that's the best way 1 can 10 describe it. 11 Q. Are you familiar with the different types of 12 asbestos fibers? ... ... 13 A. Not really. I know that chrysotile generally is considered to be the long fiber asbestos. 15 Q. The long or the short? 16 A. Long. ' 17 Q. Long. Okay. 13 A. It is the type of asbestos commonly used in IS weaving the ropes and the mat and such because of its long 20 fiber characteristics. 21 Q. Are you familiar with the term amphibole 22 fibers? -- -- -------- 23 A. I know it rs a type of asbestos, but other than 24 that I know no more about it. 25 Q. Are you familiar with the term serpentine KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES (612) 922-1955" '^ * J . > ' "v 1 fibers? 2 A. Serpentina, to the best of my knowledge, is 3 simply a mineral classification. Beyond that I don't know 4 anything about it. 5 Q. The logo on Exhibit 15 in the upper right-hand 6 corner, what type of asbestos fibers does that look like to 7 you, based on your own knowledge? S MR. JONES: Object to the form of the 9 question. Lack of foundation. He has already stated he 10 doesn't know what those are. - 11 MR. POLK: I want the record to reflect 12 that the witness was about to answer the question. 13 MR. BR0WN30N: He also stated he didn't 14 think that was Calridia fiber. I am asking him what he 15 thinks it is. 16 A. I would say it would be a long fiber 17 chrysotile. 18 Q. But not Calridia? 19 A. Ho way. 20 Q- Do you know if Union Carbide mined any 21 chrysotil other than that out of the Calridia deposit at 22 King City 23 A. Not that I know of. 24 Q. Do you know if Union Carbide sold any fiber 25 other than that, the Calridia fiber from King City? KIRBY A . KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES (612) 922-1955 > H V**.*'J x A. I have no idea. 2 Q. I guess what I am wondering is do you know why 3 the logo on the product information bulletin, such as 4 Exhibit 15, uould show a long chrysotile fiber that wasn't 5 Caliaria th$t Union Carbide didn't mine or sell such fiber? 3 MR. J0N23: Object to the form of the 7 question, lacking foundation. 3 A. I would have no way of knowing why the art 9 department of Carbide did what they did. 10 Q,. Are you familiar with the term blue asbestos? 11 Have you ever heard that used? - 12 A. Yes. As I recall, that referred to asbestos 13 that they mined in South Africa, crocidolite. 14 Q. I don't know. I am asking you. 15 A. I think. I am not sure. 16 Q. Okay. 17 a . But I believe it refers to the asbestos mined 18 in South Africa. X9 q . To the best of your knowledge that is 20 crocidolite fiber? 21 A. To my recollection. 22 Q. _Have you ever heard of a brand of asbestos 23 known as Johns-Manville Ultrabestos blue asbestos? 24 a . I have heard of Johns-Manville, beyond that 25 nothing. ' * KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES (612) 9 2 2 - 1 9 5 5 A, .~y&: - d 1 . Do you know if Johns-Manville mined any 2 asbestos from the Coalinga deposit around King City' 3 A. I believe they had a mine maybe 30 miles east 4 of King City. Unless I am wrong, I think it was at a town 5 called Coalinga. 6 Q. Do you know what type of asbestos 7 Johns-Manville mined at that facility? a A. I have no idea. 9 Q. Are you aware of Union Carbide ever 10 commissioning any research or studies into the toxicity or 11 toxicology of the Coalinga or Calridia fiber? ' 12 A. Yes, we did some work on it. 13 Q. And do you recall some work ever being done by 14 a Dr. Arthur Langer, who was affiliated with Mount Sinai 15 Hospital, as far as analyzing that fiber? 16 A. That doesn't ring a bell. 17 (At this time DERNEHL Deposition Exhibit 18 45 was marked for identification by the 19 Court Reporter.-) 20 3Y MR. BROWNSON: 21 Q. I am going show show you a document which the .22 reporter has~marked as~ Dernehl Deposition Exhibit 45 and *. 23 just ask, if you take a moment, you don't have to read the 24 whole thing but just look it over. 25 MR. JONES: For the record, I would - . ' ' ........... KIRBY A. KENNEDY fc ASSOCIATES . (612) 922-1955 1 object to the exhibit on the grounds that it contains 2 highlighting by Counsel. 3 ' MR. BRDWNSONs You are right, it does 4 contain highlighting. 5 (At this time a brief recess was taken.) 6 BY I1R. 3R0MN30N: ; 1 Q. Doctor, let's go back on the record here. I 8 have shown you what has been narked as Dernehl Exhibit 45 9 and you have now had a chance to review that briefly, is 10 that right? 11 A. Right. ' 12 Q. Do you recognize any of the authors of that 13 particular article? 14 A. No, I don't. 13 q . Langer, Wolff, Rohl and Selikoff^ 16 A. Selikoff. q . That's the same Dr. Selikoff you were speaking 17 13 of before? 19 A. That's right. V 20 Q. Do you recognize thepublication? This was .21 published in the Journal of Toxicology and Environmental 22 H e a l t h . ------- -- -- . MR. LAURAs Are you asking if he recalls 23 24 that journal? 25 MR. BR0WN30N: Just the journal, right. KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOC lA'iSi? /e1\ 011-1 P'Y-K'&Gii'u i A. Ho. My recollection is that this is a journal 2 that Selikoff and some of his people started and I don't 3 think we ever subscribed to that. 4 Q. Do you know if you have ever seen the journal' 5 A. I don't think so. 6 Q. Now, in this particular article, which was 7 published in 1978, there is some -- a MR. JONES: For the record, why don't 9 you read the name of the article? 10 MR. 3R0WN30N: The name of the article 11 is, "Variation of Properties of Chrysotile Asbestos 12 Subjected to Milling." 13 3Y MR. BR0KNS0N: 14 Q. And in this particular article there is a 15 study being done of Union Carbide Clridia RG 144 fiber. 16 Did you see that reference in here? 17 A. I saw that. ia Q. That's at Page1 1975. First of all, do you 19 know v/hat Calridia RG 144 fiber is? 20 A. I do not. 21 Q. It's describedin thearticle as chrysotile. 22 Does that seem right-- to you? 23 A. If they describe it as chrysotile, I assume 24 it's chrysotile. 25 Q. Have you ever heard of this particular study f<) M ' * KIRBY A. KENNEDY &..ASSOCIATES ; `S'! ' (612) .?22-1955'.;`, J i ^ ^ ^ - ^ At which is describee in this article, Exhibit 45' j Il A. No, I have not. [ Q. Do you know who commissioned that study' A. I have no idea. . Q. And do you know if Union Carbide ever commissioned studies similar to that where Calidri 1 asbestos fiber was analyzed for its toxicity' MR. JONES: You said commissioned' MR. BROWN3ON: Yes. A. Was analyzed for its toxicity, yes, we did i t ' j some work at Mellon. - Q. Other than studies at Mellon, do you know of any other studies that Union Carbide commissioned on that topic? A. Not that I recall. Q. Are you aware of any other studies that anyone has done, whether they were commissioned by Union Carbide or not, on the toxicity of the Calridia fiber? A. Calridia fiber,-no. Q. Now, you mentioned the Mellon study and I want to show you next a document that's been marked as Dernehl Deposition E-xhibit-- 7-- and it's entitled "Mellon Institute, Special Report, The Fibrogenic Potential of Asbestos 'w Products via Intraperitoneal Injection in Guinea Pigs, Rats and Rabbits," and ask you to look at that one. . .. ' ?v. KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES . ' ' . (612) 9 2 2 - 1 9 5 5 ` ' ' ' 1 Dr. Dernehl, I would like to ask you some 2 questions about this particular document, which is J Deposition Exhibit 7. If you look at the cover page, first 4 of all, this appears to be a report by the Mellon Institute, 5 is that right? o A. That's correct. 7 Q. Is this the report that you just referred to 3 about the study about the toxicity of the Calridia asbestos? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. And what is the date of it? 11 A. 1966. 12 Q. And this was a study done by Mellon Institute 13 personnel who were Union Carbide employees, is that right' 14 A. Right. 15 Q. And it indicates on the back that you received 16 it appears like four copies of this. If you go to the very 17 last page it shows the distribution list. 18 A. Uh-huh. 19 Q. Would you agree^withme that based upon what 20 it says there that you, in fact, received four copies of 21 this report? 22 A. -- Yes-.------ 23 Q. Do you know of any other studies done by the 24 Mellon Institute done on the toxicity of Calidria asbestos 25 other than the one you are looking at. Deposition Exhibit 7? , ........ - KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES (612) 922-1955 ' . - 1 h. That, I believe, is the only one I can recall. 2 H. Do you remember why that study was done' 3 A. Yes. ' 4 And why was that? 5 A. The current knowledge in the middle and early 6 `60s wnen this was done held that the fibers that were 7 active in causing asbestosis were the long fibers and that a was the reason why the air sampling standard at that time 9 limited the counting to fibers of ten microns or longer 10 because it was felt that these were the fibers that were of 11 significance and that you had to be protected against. 12 Sometime about this time there developed information that 13 there was a form of silicosis, which is a disease not 14 widely different from asbestosis, that there was a form of 15 silicosis which was rapidly fatal and was produced by ultra 16 fine particles of silica. It was first observed in the 17 mining process somewhere in the United States where, for 18 reasons unknown, a group of miners started working in an 19 area of high purity quartz and they developed a very ,20 rapidly progressive and very rapidly fatal silicosis, which .21 was something totally unknown before. 22 -- Sher-t-ly-aiter that in Germany there was some 23 work done with a ultra fine silica powder, I believe it *4 . 24 was -- went by the name of degusa silica, which was a micro 25 fine silica powder arid which produced the same sort of -------- -- - ' -x 4 KIRBY A. KENNEDY & .ASSOCIATES : (612) 922-1955 > ^ - '4* ' ! I C 1SF ! A i f * 1 ! 4* c response in the workers exposed to it as was seen in this group of workers in this country who developed a rapidly progressive and fatal silicosis. Since this involved a scaling down of particle size, we were concerned then 'whether or not the short fiber Calridia asbestos might have 6 a similar reaction in people as did the micro fine silica; 7 in other words, were we going to be faced with a rapidly 3 progressive and possibly rapidly fatal form of asbestosis 9 in people who were overexposed to this very short fiber and 10 very fine fiber type of asbestos that we were getting at- 11 Coalinga. ' 12 Q. Okay. 13 A. Which is the reason why weasked for these 14 studies and to try to compare the actionofthese fibers in 15 animals as compared to a standard long fiber or reasonably 16 long fiber Johns-rtanville product. 17 Q. 3o would it be fair to say that as a result of 18 your knowledge of hazards with silica you became concerned 19 at some point in the mid-'60s that the Calridia asbestos 20 could hve similar effects in humans? 21 A. Could be rapidly? 22 Q. Yes.------ 23 A. Rapidly progressive and rapidly fatal, yes, we 24 were concerned with that possibility. 25 ' q. As a result of that, you commissioned this vi . w *.-. KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES . (612) 922"1 ?55 ' v**v study by the Mellon Institute? . h. That's correct. ' MR. JONES: The study reflected in Exnibit 7. . BY Mil. BROWNSON: Q. Was your concern only for the workers at the King City facility? A. The concern would be to anybody that was exposed to the material, the workers at the King City facility certainly but anybody else who handled the material likewise. Q. Would that include workers at customer plants who are handling the material? A. Certainly. :' ' Q. Are you familiarwith a gentleman by the name of Robert G. Woolery? A. Robert G. Woolery'' Q. w-o-o-l-e-r-y. A. No, I am afraid-not. Not at this stage. Q. He at one time was a group leader of product development and technical services at the mining and metals division of -Union-- Carbide in Tuxecio, New York. A. 1 may have had contact with him, but that was so long ago that I wouldn't remember it. ' q. i want to show you what has been marked as ' . ------- -- '-- " ... .... . . ' ' KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES ...._ (612) 922-1955 *'.V* ; - ~~~7Fu " 1 Durnehl Deposition Exhibit 1 and ask you this question only, 2 is this a publication put out by the Onion Carbide 3 Corporation? 4 MR. HARVARD: What was the exhibit 5 number? G MR. BRQWNSON: Exhibit 1. 7 MR. JONES: For the record, the document ' 6 is entitled, "The Effects of Chrysotile Asbestos Additions 9 to Ceilulosic Paper" by Robert G. Woolery. 10 A. Well, this was a paper apparently prepared by 11 Robert G. Woolery, but what happened to the document I am 12 sure I don't know. 13 MR. GOLDBERG: What is the date on that? 14 THE 'WITNESS: There is no date that I 15 know. At this point in time it had not been accepted for 16 publication. This is apparently a copy that he kept of 17 something he did submit for publication which may or may 13 not have been published. 19 BY MR. BROWNSON: ' * . 20 Q. You have no idea if this was sent to customers, 21 however? ' 22 A. If it was published, interested customers 23 might be provided with a reprint of the paper. 24 Q. Well -- ' 25 A.. I d o n 't know that that happened. I am merely KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES ^ (612) 922-195.5 1 talking of a possibility. 2 Q. In this case, this particular report did reach 3 Conwed Corporation, who was a customer of Union Carbide. 4 Does that indicate to you whether it was published or not7 5 MR. JONES: 1 will object to that. 6 A. It suggests that it was published. Carbide 7 itself might have prepared a number of those documents for 3 submission to customers, I don't know about that. 9 Q. How, was there any policy at Union Carbide in 10 the 1960s that technical reports concerning asbestos which 11 were sent to customers be reviewed by the medical 12 department? 13 A. Not all of them. 14 Q. So would xt be possible for someone such as 15 Mr. Woolery to issue a technical report such as Exnibit 1 16 and it not be reviewed by the medical department? 17 MR. JONES: I am going to object to the 13 characterization of the exhibit as a technical report. Go 19 ahead and answer. 20 A. If the publication made any reference to 21 health problems associated with the product then it would 22 hava been reviewed by somebody in the medical department. ,23' If it was just a technical report we would not review it. 24 Q. Was there ever a policy instituted at Union 25 Carbide that reports to customers about the use of asbestos -- :-------- " KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES " ! _ (612) 922-1955 --y ,, 1 be reviewed by the medical department? ; 2 A. Not that I know of. \ 3 Q. Was there ever a policy at Union Carbide that 4 reports to customers about the asbestos contained 5 statements about health? 6 MR. LAURA: Rephrase that. 7 BY MR. BROWNSON: ' . 4 8 Q. Was there ever a policy at Union Carbide 9 Corporation that reports sent to customers by Union Carbide 10 must contain a statement about the health effects of ' 11 asbestos? 12 A. There was no such policy, no. 13 Q. I am going to show you what has been marked as 14 Exhibit 2 and ask you if this is a report issued or a i 15 document issued by Union Carbide? 18 MR. JONES: For the record, the document 17 is entitled "Properties of Asbestos Suitable for Use in 18 Cellulosic Paper" by A. W. Naumann. 19 A. It says that it was issued by Union Carbide, 20 so I presume it was. I don't know Naumann and I have not 21 seen the document. ' 22 Q. Do you know if this document was reviewed by 23 the Union Carbide medical department before it was issued' 24 A. I have no idea. * 25 Q.. The next thing I want to show you is a . ` KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES (612) 922-1955 ' 1 document marked as Dernehl Deposition Exhibit Humber 4, and 2 ask that you first look at that. j MR. JOKESs For the record, as has been 4 noted before in other depositions, I will object to the 5 annotations on the copy. 6 MR. BROWUSON: That document was 7 produced to us with those annotations. . . - 8 (At this time a discussion was held off 9 the record.) 10 BY MR. BROWNSON: ' 11 Q. Doctor, is this a copy of a document-entitled 12 "Asbestos T o x i c o l o g y Report" and it has your name at the 13 end of it? 14 A. Right. 15 Q. It also has the name of Dr. K. S. Lane? 16 A. Right. 17 Q. Is that the same Dr. Lane we were talking 18 about before? 19 A. Yes. 20 q . Were you the author of this? 21 A. I probably wrote part of it and Lane probably 22 wrote part of it too. 23 q . Do you remember writing it? 24 ,, a . I doubt it. 25 C- Do you recallwriting any toxicology reports KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES (612) 922-1955 1 about asbestos? 2 A. Do I specifically recall? The answer is no. 3 Did I write them? I am sure I did. 4 Q. You don't deny, for example, that you wrote 5 this particular one, Exhibit 4? 6 A. No, I don't deny that I had a hand in writing 7 that. ..... r' V ' 't S Q. You don't know whose writing these handwritten 9 notes are, do you, on Exhibit 4? 10 MR. ER0WNS0N: Are those yours? ` 11 MR. POLK: It might be. j ' 1 12 < THE WITNESS: Not mine. ... 13 MR. 3R0WNS0N: Is that yours? . 14 MR. POLK: Yes. 15 MR. BROWNSON: Nbw we know whose they 16 are. 17 BY MR. BROWNSON: 13 Q. Vie have been told in prior depositions by 19 Union Carbide employees that this particular Asbestos 20 Toxicology Report was updated from time to time. Do you 21 remember doing that? ' 22 A. Specifically, no. 23 Q. Does that sound like it*s something that could 24 have occurred? ` 25 A.. That's a logical procedure. " ' KIRBY A. KENNEDY fit ASSOCIATES ` ,.v ' - " (612) 922-1955 *. .. . .v ' Q. Do you know where we would find today copies of the different versions of this asbestos toxicology reporc if it was updated? A. I have no idea. Q. Wnile you were at Union Carbide at the medical department until '79 where would you file these asbestos toxicology reports? ' A. They would be filed in our toxicology files under asbestos. ; Q. Did you have a particular drawer or file marked asbestos? * A. We had folders marked asbestos. Q. What sorts of materials would you keep in those folders? A. Anything that came to our mind about asbestos, that came to our hand about asbestos, correspondence, toxicology studies, anything we picked up in the literature that was of interest if we felt wa wanted to keep there. Q. Did you maintain that file over the years' - A. Yes. Q- Would you ever throw things out of it? ' iv I doubt it. G' Do you know if it's still maintained today' A. I have no idea. ' Q. Do you know who would have custody or control . *... . ' .. KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES ' - (612) 922-1955 ' . . -.{* _______________ .____________________________ ._____________________ 1 ^ pipe covering and asbestos block possess a hazard9 That 2 would bs a yes or a no answer 3 A. You want to know if I have an opinion? Yes, I 4 have an opinion. 5 Q. All right. iJhat is your opinion? 6 A. My opinion is that as long as the 7 asbestos-containing material is not disturbed it is not a 8 hazard. 9 Q. Do you have an opinion as to whether or not 10 in-place asbestos-containing insulation products pose a 11 hazard if they are^cisturbea? ' 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. What is your opinion? 14 A. If they release asbestos into the air they are 15 a hazard. ' 16 Q. And do you have any opinions, based on any 17 source from I guess anywhere, as to what the airborne 18 characteristics are of asbestos fibers? I mean to use a 19 different word as opposed to., airborne. 20 MR. BRCKiNSOH: Aerodynamic? 21 BY MR. POLK: 22 g. no ymi know anything about the aerodynamics of - - . 23 asbestos fiber? . 4 A. None whatsoever. 25 ' Q. And you don't have any recollection of seeing ------- --- -------- KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES / (612) V 2 2 - 1 W 1 any reports, while you ware the associate medical director, concerning the aerodynamics of asbestos fiber? A. .Jot that I can recall. 4 Q. And do you hava an opinion, as you sit here 5 today, that leads you to a definite conclusion that 6 cnrysocile asbestos cannot cause mesothelioma? 7 MR. J0NE3: I will object to tha form of 3 tha question as compound. Answer it if you can. 9 A. Do I have an opinion thatchrysotile asbestos 10 cannot cause mesothelioma? 11 Q. Yes. 12 A. No. 13 Q. No what? 14 A. No, I don't have an opinion that it cannot. 15 Q. Do you have an opinion, with reasonable 16 medical certainty, that chrysotile asbestos in fact can 17 cause mesothelioma? 13 A. Providing that theexposure of anindividual 19 is sufficient to bring about- 3 u c h a condition, yes. 20 Q. Let me just back up for a minute and get the 21 basis for your last opinion that chrysotile can cause 22 mesothelioma-.-- Whut-s-the basis for your opinion? 23 A. That it can cause? 24 Q. Yes. 25 ' A. Well* there is sufficient valid -------- : : KIR3Y A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES. / n t o A nn*v i r r --t< . ' ' \iA I 1 epidemiological studies today to indicate that chrysotile 2 asbestos can cause mesothelioma lung cancers. And there 3 is even more conclusive evidence available that the 4 probability of this occurring is enhanced ten times or more 5 if an individual smokes. 6 Q. Are you of the opinion that there is any s 7 synergistic effect between cigarette smoke and asbestos as ' 8 relates to the disease of mesothelioma? 9 A. Yes. . 10 Q. And what's that opinion based on? 11 A. That opinion is based on the fact that there 12 is evidence that the asbestos fiber picks up the 13 c a r c i n o g e n i c materials from cigarette smoke, binds i t and 14 carries it with it wherever it goes. 15 Q. Tell me, in your opinion, is mesothelioma a 16 luftg cancer? 17 A. Not as such. It's a cancer of connective 18 tissue that lines the lung cavity and it lines the .. * 19 intestinal cavity. 20 Q. Well, Doctor, are you able to cite for me any 21 medical literature from an epidemiological standpoint, 22 first of all, that has lead you to believe that cigarettes 23 can contribute to the development of a mesothelioma? 24 A. I can't cite for you the literature right now 25 but the statistical data which has been developed to this ~ ----------- -- KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES ' -- ~~~~K 1 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 point indicates that the incidence of mesothelioma is a heck of-a lot higher in those who smoke than it is in those who do not. Q. cancer? Is the same true for the development of lung A. Absolutely. ' . . ( Q. And I assume that you would also agree that ' Chrysotile asbestos is certainly capable of causing a peritoneal mesothelioma, is that fair? A If it can cause it in the lung, it can cause it in the peritoneum. Q. Doctor, are you aware of any studies that were done in the Cloquet, Minnesota, area concerning the deposits of chrysotile asbestos in the river that ajoined the Conwed or Cloquet plant? - A. I do not know anything about your studies in the river at this point. Q. And so you were never informed by Union Carbide, at least as far as you can recall, about Union Carbide going to the Conwed plant and testing for chrysotile asbestos in the river, is that right? ' A. Not that I know about. Q. Now, did you know back in 1967 that cigarette smoke and asbestosis had a synergistic effect with ` reference to the development of lung cancer? KIRBY A.'KENNEDY fit ASSOCIATES . (612) 922-1955 v ; '