Document jy5oXkv2pJJG2dMB1xp5d1VVR

FILE NAME Paccar PAC DATE 2023 Sept 26 DOC PAC015 DOCUMENT DESCRIPTION Legal - Deposition of PMQ Rodney Curbo Carpenter v 3M Ex L EXHIBIT L Paccar Inc. PMQ Rodney Curbo September 26 2023 SUPERIOR COURT OF THE STATE OF CALIFORNIA FOR THE COUNTY OF LOS ANGELES RONALD LEROY PATRICIA ANN CARPENTER AND CARPENTER Plaintiffs VS. 3M COMPANY k MINNESOTA MINING & MANUFACTURING COMPANY et al Defendants J.C.C.P. ) NO 4674 ) Los Angeles County ) Superior Court No. ) 20STCV46727 ) ) ) CERTIFIED ee ORIGINAL ) ) eee ORAL AND VIDEOTAPED DEPOSITION OF PACCAR'S PERSON MOST QUALIFIED SEPTEMBER 26 2023 VOLUME 2 OF 2 RODNEY CURBO ORAL AND VIDEOTAPED DEPOSITION OF PACCAR'S PERSON MOST QUALIFIED RODNEY CURBO produced as a witness at the instance of the PLAINTIFFS and duly sworn was taken in the styled and numbered cause on SEPTEMBER 26 2023 from 10:33 a.m. to 7:08 p.m. CST before Kimberly Byrns Buchanan CSR RPR in and for the State of Texas reported by machine shorthand at the offices of Gordon Rees Scully Mansukhani LLP 2200 Ross Avenue Suite 3700 Dallas Texas 75201 pursuant to the Texas Rules of Civil Procedure and the provisions stated on the record or attached hereto Asbestos Reporters GPS affiliate 214-347-4781 Paccar Inc. PMQ Rodney Curbo September 26 2023 APPEARANCES 188 FOR THE PLAINTIFFS Mr. H. W. Trey JONES & BENDON Jones LLP 2251 Hidalgo Avenue Los Angeles California 90039 Tel 310 498-6254 mail trey@treyjoneslaw.com FOR THE DEFENDANT PACCAR INC Mr. Jason J. Irvin 10 GORDON REES SCULLY 2200 Ross Avenue MANSUKHANI LLP Suite 3700 11 Dallas Texas 75201 Tel 214 231-4676 12 mail jirvin@grsm.com 13 - and - 14 Ms. Shaghig Agopian remote BUTY & CURLIANO LLP 15 516 16th Street Oakland California 94612 16 Tel 510 267-3000 mail sagopian@butycurliano.com 17 18 FOR THE DEFENDANT ARVINMERITOR INC 19 20 Mr. Robert H. Baronian Of Counsel PRINDLE GOETZ BARNES & REINHOLTZ One World Trade Center remote LLP Suite 1100 21 Long Beach California 90831 Tel 626 568-0834 22 mail bbaronian@prindlelawpas.com 23 24 25 Asbestos Reporters GPS affiliate 214-347-4781 Paccar Inc. PMQ Rodney Curbo September 26 2023 APPEARANCES APPEARANCES Continued FOR THE DEFENDANT CUMMINS INC Ms. Gabriel A. Jackson GOLDBERG SEGALLA remote 611 Gateway Suite 120 Boulevard San Francisco California 94080 Tel 415 432-6600 mail gjackson@goldbergsegalla.com 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 FOR THE DEFENDANT PNEUMO ABEX LLC Mr. Johan D. Flynn remote WHEELER TRIGG O'DONNELL LLP 370 17th Street Suite 4500 Denver Colorado 80202 Tel 303 244-1947 mail flynn@wtotrial.com ALSO PRESENT Brent Goucher - Videographer Asbestos Reporters GPS affiliate 214-347-4781 189 Paccar Inc. PMQ Rodney Curbo September 26 2023 INDEX 190 PAGE Appearances 2... ee ee ee eee ee eee ee ee ee eee eee ee ere cece cen 2 RODNEY CURBO EXAMINATION EXAMINATION BY BY MR MR JONES ce ee FLYNN EXAMINATION BY MR BARONIAN EXAMINATION BY MR IRVIN FURTHER EXAMINATION BY MR JONES FURTHER EXAMINATION BY MR FLYNN 196 328 348 357 418 455 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Changes and Signature Reporter's Certificate . 2... eee ee ce ee ee ee eee ee eee .... ee ee ce ee ee eee ee eee 458 460 NO EXHIBIT 24 EXHIBIT 25 EXHIBIT 26 EXHIBIT 27 ******* EXHIBITS DESCRIPTION PAGE PACCAR INC'S SECOND SUPPLEMENTAL RESPONSES TO PLAINTIFFS REQUESTS FOR PRODUCTION OF DOCUMENTS 199 ADVANCE FIELD MAINTENANCE MANUAL - ROCKWELL MASTER BRAKE PACCAR000141 2153 TO 2191 Q SERIES TO 148 AND BOUND MANUAL - KENWORTH MAINTENANCE MANUAL - CHASSIS 236740 COMPILED ESPECIALLY FOR RICHARD PETTY NO BATES NUMBERS) KENWORTH TRUCK COMPANY FINAL CHASSIS BILL OF MATERIAL NO BATES NUMBERS 204 219 221 Asbestos Reporters GPS affiliate 214-347-4781 Paccar Inc. PMQ Rodney Curbo September 26 2023 EXHIBITS EXHIBITS Continued) 191 NO EXHIBIT 28 EXHIBIT 29 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 EXHIBIT 30 EXHIBIT 31 EXHIBIT 32 EXHIBIT 33 EXHIBIT 34 EXHIBIT 35 DESCRIPTION PAGE DEFENDANTS KENWORTH TRUCK COMPANY AND PACCAR INC INDIVIDUALLY AND THROUGH ITS DIVISION PETERBILT MOTORS CO ANSWER TO PLAINTIFF'S FIRST SET OF INTERROGATORIES VEHICLE AND ENGINE DEFENDANTS) DEFENDANT PACCAR INC'S RESPONSES TO PLAINTIFFS STANDARD INTERROGATORIES TO ALL DEFENDANTS 226 231 DEFENDANT PACCAR INC'S ANSWERS AND RESPONSES TO PLAINTIFF'S FIRST SET OF INTERROGATORIES AND REQUESTS FOR PRODUCTION OF DOCUMENTS 233 SMALL BOUND MANUAL ORIGINAL - 1985 KENWORTH OPERATION AND SERVICE MANUAL NO BATES NUMBERS) DOCUMENTS SUBMITTED IN RESPONSE REQUEST FOR PRODUCTION NO 26 PACCAR000560 940 1028 TO 1036 1236 AND AND 1301 TO HANDWRITTEN NOTES - THINGS TO BE DONE BEFORE ASBESTOS CAN BE RELEASED PACCAR000363 TO 364 MEMO DATED SEPTEMBER 1 1983 FROM R. MELDER SUBJECT PRELIMINARY SUMMARY OF BRAKE TEST PROCEDURE MEETING 239 264 271 273 OFFICE COMMUNICATION DATED JULY 25 1983 FROM DAVE DEACON REFERENCE PROJECT 81021 - TEST ASBESTOS BRAKE LININGS COMPLETION NOTICE 276 Asbestos Reporters GPS affiliate 214-347-4781 Paccar Inc. PMQ Rodney Curbo September 26 2023 EXHIBITS EXHIBITS Continued) 192 NO EXHIBIT 36 EXHIBIT 37 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 EXHIBIT 38 EXHIBIT 39 EXHIBIT 40 EXHIBIT 41 EXHIBIT 42 EXHIBIT 43 DESCRIPTION PAGE HANDWRITTEN NOTES DATED 12/8/82 RICH FROM DAVE DEACON REF ASBESTOS LININGS PACCAR000367 TO 373 TO LETTER DATED JANUARY 15 1981 FROM MANHATTAN INC WITH ATTACHED REQUESTED ABEX DATA PRESENTATION LETTER STAMPED PACCAR000332 OFFICE COMMUNICATION DATED NOVEMBER 24 1982 TO DAVE DEACON REFERENCE STATUS OF ASBESTOS LINING PROJECT 81021 STARTING WITH BATES PACCAR00036 NONSEQUENTIAL) LETTER DATED OCTOBER 7 1982 FROM KRISTEN DEAN SUBJECT KENWORTH DIRECT SHIP PURCHASE ORDER CONTRACT WITH RELATED DOCUMENTS ATTACHED ABX KENWORTH - 05838 TO 05871 LETTER DATED NOVEMBER 15 1983 FROM KRISTEN DEAN SUBJECT KENWORTH DIRECT SHIP PURCHASE ORDER CONTRACT WITH RELATED DOCUMENTS ABX KENWORTH - 05802 TO 05810 OFFICE COMMUNICATION DATED DECEMBER 30 1988 FROM GEOFFREY WHEELER RE INTRODUCTION OF ASBESTOS BRAKE LININGS PACCAR001640 PETERBILT FACSIMILE DATED 2/28/89 FROM PACCAR001659 TRANSMISSION STEVE VANDERLIP PETERBILT PROJECT INITIATION FORM DATED 7-22-83 SUBMITTED BY GARY N. BEAUMONT PACCAR000380 280 285 285 285 285 287 289 295 Asbestos Reporters GPS affiliate 214-347-4781 Paccar Inc. PMQ Rodney Curbo September 26 2023 EXHIBITS EXHIBITS Continued) 193 NO EXHIBIT 44 EXHIBIT 45 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 EXHIBIT 46 EXHIBIT 47 EXHIBIT 48 EXHIBIT 49 EXHIBIT 50 EXHIBIT 51 EXHIBIT 52 EXHIBIT 53 DESCRIPTION PAGE PAPER - ASBESTOS EXPOSURE DURING BRAKE LINING MAINTENANCE AND REPAIR BY ARTHUR N. ROHL PUBLISHED IN ENVIRONMENTAL ET AL RESEARCH 12 NO BATES 110-128 1976 SPREADSHEET PRODUCED BY RODNEY CURBO - CHASSIS INFORMATION OVERSIZED DOCUMENT) FINAL CHASSIS BILL OF MATERIAL DATED 05/11/79 PACCAR003881 AND B COLOR PHOTOCOPY 1974 KENWORTH 123 CABOVER 298 304 319 329 COLOR PHOTOGRAPH KENWORTH 1978 100 329 ABEX ASBESTOS LETTER TO KENWORTH DATED SEPTEMBER 3 1986 000422 LETTER DATED FEBRUARY REGARDING IH SAMPLING FROM AXLE DEPARTMENT PACCAR000173 TO 174 5 1985 DATA INTEROFFICE COMMUNICATION DATED JUNE 25 ASBESTOS 1984 SUBJECT IN TRUCK MANUFACTURING PACCAR000171 TO 172 LETTER DATED MARCH 2 1987 FROM ROBERT L. SCHUMACHER CIH PACCAR000240 AMERICAN SOCIETY OF SAFETY ENGINEERS OFFICIAL PUBLICATION - PORTLAND CHAPTER MAY 1978 NO 9 DATED 334 344 344 344 361 Asbestos Reporters GPS affiliate 214-347-4781 Paccar Inc. PMQ Rodney Curbo September 26 2023 EXHIBITS EXHIBITS Continued) 194 NO EXHIBIT 54 EXHIBIT 55 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 EXHIBIT 56 EXHIBIT 57 EXHIBIT 58 EXHIBIT 59 DESCRIPTION LETTER DATED SEPTEMBER 27 1976 FROM ROBERT L. SCHUMACHER TO DAVID BISSONNETTE PACCAR000069 TO 72 PAPER - SOCIETY OF AUTOMOTIVE ENGINEERS INC - ASBESTOS EMISSIONS FROM BRAKE DYNAMOMETER TESTS BY A.E. ANDERSON ET PRESENTED MAY 14--18 1973 PACCAR002528 TO 2538 AL INTEROFFICE COMMUNICATION DATED JANUARY 29 1976 FROM D. A. BISSONNETTE REFERENCE JOSEPH V. REDACTED CLAIM PACCAR000065 SAMPLE DATA SHEET FUMES AND MISTS PACCAR000068 - PARTICULATE DATED 8/23/76 ABEX CORPORATION MATERIAL SAFETY DATA SHEET REVISED PACCAR000268 TO 270 1/14/87 MEMO DATED JULY 7 1982 FROM W. W. MATTHES SUBJECT ASBESTOS LINING FIELD TEST UPDATE PACCAR000357 TO 360 PAGE 364 386 431 441 446 447 Asbestos Reporters GPS affiliate 214-347-4781 Paccar Inc. PMQ Rodney Curbo September 26 2023 195 1 PROCEEDINGS 2 THE VIDEOGRAPHER We are on the record 3 The date is September 26 2023. The time 4 on the monitor is 10:33 a.m. 5 This is Volume 2 of the recorded 6 deposition of PACCAR PMQ Rodney Curbo And this is 7 being taken in the matter of Ronald Leroy Carpenter and 8 Patricia Ann Carpenter versus 3M Company et al The case number is 20STCV46727 This matter is being heard 10 in the Superior Court of the State of California for the 11 County of Los Angeles 12 This deposition is being held at Gordon 13 and Rees in Dallas Texas and being taken by counsel 14 for Plaintiffs 15 My name is Brent Goucher a legal 16 videographer representing GPS located in Dallas Texas 17 The Court Reporter is Kim Buchanan representing GPS 18 located in Dallas Texas 19 Appearances and applicable stipulations 20 will be reflected on the stenographic record 21 And the deponent has been sworn in on a 22 prior deposition 23 Counsel you may proceed 24 RODNEY CURBO 25 having been first duly sworn testified as follows Asbestos Reporters GPS affiliate 214-347-4781 Paccar Inc. PMQ Rodney Curbo September 26 2023 196 1 2 BY MR JONES EXAMINATION 3 Q. Good morning Mr. Curbo You ready to 4 continue 5 A. I am 6 Q. Okay When we left off we were discussing 7 some information in PACCAR's files about asbestos 8 hazards Do you recall that A. I believe so 10 Q. What did PACCAR do to inform its customers that 11 there were asbestos components in the trucks it sold 12 A. I'd say the main thing that we did is we passed 13 along information from our component suppliers For 14 instance we know that -- we found a Rockwell 15 maintenance manual which we passed along that had 16 a -- an asbestos warning in it 17 Q. And then did any other component part suppliers 18 supply warning information to PACCAR Kenworth or 19 Peterbilt 20 A. I believe one of the other documents that we've 21 produced along with that Rockwell manual was an Eaton 22 manual I think it was dated in 19 -- it's like the 23 early 1980s 24 Q. PACCAR never included its own -- well 25 actually that's -- what components in a PACCAR truck Asbestos Reporters GPS affiliate 214-347-4781 Paccar Inc. PMQ Rodney Curbo September 26 2023 197 1 contained asbestos historically speaking 2 MR IRVIN Vague as to time Overbroad 3 as to time 4 Q. BY MR JONES At any time 5 A. Based off what we know today at certain times 6 we believe brakes included -- well brakes included 7 asbestos clutches included asbestos and gaskets 8 certain gaskets Mainly -- I believe the only ones that we're aware of are related gaskets 10 Q. BY MR JONES So the warning information 11 received by PACCAR -- which is Kenworth and Peterbilt 12 Right 13 A. Yes 14 Q. The warning information received by PACCAR was 15 from Rockwell and Eaton true 16 A. I believe that's true 17 Q. Rockwell and Eaton supplied axles brakes and 18 brake assemblies to both Kenworth and Peterbilt true 19 A. Yes 20 Q. And the brakes that were included in the brake 21 assemblies had the asbestos lining on them true 22 MR IRVIN Vague as to time 23 But go ahead 24 A. At various points in time the brakes did 25 include asbestos yes Asbestos Reporters GPS affiliate 214-347-4781 Paccar Inc. PMQ Rodney Curbo September 26 2023 198 1 Q. BY MR JONES Okay 2 MR BARONIAN And excuse me Trey 3 MR JONES Yeah 4 MR BARONIAN Bob Baronian 5 We have the same stipulation from Session 6 1 that AN objection by one is good for all 7 MR JONES Yes sir 8 MR BARONIAN Thank you Q. BY MR JONES So of those components brakes 10 clutches and gaskets the only warning information 11 provided to Kenworth and Peterbilt was for the brakes 12 A. To the best of my recollection the only 13 documents that we found that included asbestos 14 warnings was related to the brakes 15 Q. Are you aware of any evidence that PACCAR 16 Kenworth and Peterbilt ever informed its customers 17 that clutches included asbestos 18 A. I don't believe we found anything that 19 indicates that we would -- that the information that we 20 passed along included any warnings 21 Q. Is there any evidence that Kenworth or 22 Peterbilt ever informed customers that gaskets included 23 asbestos 24 A. No evidence that I've seen To the best of my 25 recollection anyway Asbestos Reporters GPS affiliate 214-347-4781 Paccar Inc. PMQ Rodney Curbo September 26 2023 199 1 Q. Well and that's something that was explored in 2 this case true 3 MR IRVIN Vague ambiguous 4 A. I'm not sure I understand your question 5 exactly 6 Q. BY MR JONES Sure 7 One of the things PACCAR was asked in this 8 case was to produce documents indicating that suppliers of asbestos components provided warning to PACCAR true 10 A. I believe that that was one of the requests 11 over time related to this case 12 Q. I'll show you what I'll mark as Exhibit 107 13 MR JONES That's not fair That was 14 mean 15 Q. BY MR JONES Let me show you what I'll mark 16 as Exhibit 24 17 Exhibit 24 marked 18 Q. BY MR JONES It's the second supplemental 19 responses to your request for production in this matter 20 MR BARONIAN I'm sorry Trey Is that 21 Abex's second set of supplemental responses 22 MR JONES PACCAR's 23 MR BARONIAN Oh PAC -- PACCAR's 24 That's what I meant Okay Thank you 25 Q. BY MR JONES Exhibit 24 is PACCAR Inc's Asbestos Reporters GPS affiliate 214-347-4781 Paccar Inc. PMQ Rodney Curbo September 26 2023 200 1 Second Supplemental Responses to Plaintiffs Request for 2 Production of Documents in the Carpenter case true 3 A. Yes 4 Q. Can you -- and these discovery responses are 5 verified by you true 6 A. Yes 7 Q. Can you please go to Request for Production 8 Number 11 on page 11 MR IRVIN And Trey these aren't the 10 amended the most recent ones 11 MR JONES I think they are the most 12 recent 13 MR IRVIN I don't think they are 14 But -- because we amended -- because we did a whole 15 amendment based on your -- 16 MR JONES I think that's correct 17 MR IRVIN -- various meet and confers 18 And so we went through -- I think these are a few 19 iterations prior ... 20 MR JONES I'm only aware of a second 21 But if you've got a different one 22 MR IRVIN Yeah Why don't I have that 23 printed out for you 24 MR JONES There's a third 25 MR IRVIN No. I think it's the amended Asbestos Reporters GPS affiliate 214-347-4781 Paccar Inc. PMQ Rodney Curbo September 26 2023 201 1 So it wasn't like supplementing 1 2 3 here It was 2 amended to -- yeah This isn't the most recent version 3 ... 4 MR JONES You want to go off the record 5 MR IRVIN Yeah Let me see if I can get 6 it printed for you 7 MR JONES Let's go off the record 8 THE VIDEOGRAPHER Yes sir One moment 10 The time is 10:42 a.m. We are now off the 11 record 12 Break was from 10:42 a.m. to 10:44 a.m. 13 THE VIDEOGRAPHER We are back on the 14 record The time is 10:45 a.m. 15 Counsel you may proceed 16 Q. BY MR JONES Mr. Curbo these requests for 17 production three of them at least ask about warning 18 information provided by suppliers of asbestos components 19 to PACCAR true 20 A. I believe they ask for all communications about 21 asbestos -- 22 Q. Right 23 A. -- with our various suppliers 24 Q. True 25 And then at page 11 the request seeks Asbestos Reporters GPS affiliate 214-347-4781 Paccar Inc. PMQ Rodney Curbo September 26 2023 202 1 communications about asbestos with axle suppliers from 2 1972 to 1999 true 3 A. Yes 4 Q. And then on page 13 PACCAR lists some 5 particular documents which includes the Rockwell and 6 Eaton manuals that you described before true 7 A. I believe so 8 Q. Okay And then the other communications with Rockwell and Eaton about asbestos would have been mostly 10 related to that transition from asbestos to nonasbestos 11 brakes true 12 A. Yes sir 13 Q. Okay PACCAR was also asked about 14 communications about asbestos from transmission 15 suppliers and PACCAR didn't have any communications 16 A. That's correct 17 Q. And same with engines No -- PACCAR didn't 18 have any documents related to communications with engine 19 manufacturers about asbestos True 20 A. That's correct 21 Q. PACCAR never included its own asbestos warning 22 on a truck true 23 A. We did not 24 Q. PACCAR never wrote out its own asbestos warning 25 that it put in a manual true Asbestos Reporters GPS affiliate 214-347-4781 Paccar Inc. PMQ Rodney Curbo September 26 2023 203 1 A. We did not 2 Q. The only way a customer would get a warning 3 from PACCAR would be if a supplier included that warning 4 in something that went into PACCAR's maintenance manual 5 true 6 MR IRVIN Vague over -- vague as to 7 time overbroad 8 A. Yeah I guess what I would say in fairness of completion we passed along information that was 10 provided to us by our suppliers things like maintenance 11 manuals So if a truck was manufactured or assembled 12 with a Rockwell axle it got Rockwell maintenance 13 information If it was produced with a Eaton axle or 14 Eaton brakes it received Eaton maintenance manual 15 information 16 And that information was put in the trucks 17 as they were being assembled And 18 Q. BY MR JONES And if the supplier didn't 19 provide that warning then PACCAR didn't provide that 20 warning 21 A. That's correct 22 Q. Okay Can you please go to Request for 23 Production Number 44 in that document It's at page 79 24 Interrogatory No. 44 asks for the -- all 25 warnings you provided concerning asbestos hazards Asbestos Reporters GPS affiliate 214-347-4781 Paccar Inc. PMQ Rodney Curbo September 26 2023 204 1 associated with your trucks true 2 A. Yes 3 Q. And then in response to that request 4 beginning on page 81 and going to page 82 PACCAR lists 5 some -- lists the documents it has related to all 6 warnings PACCAR provided concerning asbestos hazards 7 associated with its trucks true 8 A. It lists the documents that we have yes Q. Okay I'm going to mark as Exhibit 25 the 10 documents that are listed in that response 11 Exhibit 25 marked 12 MR IRVIN Well let me see that 13 Q. BY MR JONES And if you can just confirm 14 for me that those are all the documents listed in the 15 response 16 MR FLYNN Trey can you tell us the 17 response number again please 18 MR JONES 44 in the second supplemental 19 set 20 MR IRVIN Are those all jammed together 21 Is that not just the Rockwell 22 MR JONES Correct That's -- I think 23 it's two series The first one I think is the 24 Rockwell The second one is the Rockwell again I 25 think it's the same one And then the Eaton one Asbestos Reporters GPS affiliate 214-347-4781 Paccar Inc. PMQ Rodney Curbo September 26 2023 205 1 But I think there's only two -- 2 MR FLYNN And Trey just to -- 3 MR JONES -- series 4 MR FLYNN Sorry Trey just so I can 5 hear you said 34 Number 34 6 MR JONES 44 7 MR FLYNN 44. Okay Thank you 8 Q. BY MR JONES So this should be PACCAR 141 to 148 and PACCAR 2153 through through 2191 10 A. It appears to be 11 Q. Okay So Exhibit Exhibit 24 is all of the warning 12 information PACCAR has located located in its records for 13 asbestos warnings supplied supplied to customers concerning 14 asbestos and PACCAR trucks trucks true 15 A. So -- 16 MR IRVIN Counsel can you ask that 17 question with saying Exhibit Exhibit 25 18 MR JONES Oh 19 She got me All right All right 20 Q. BY MR JONES Sir Exhibit -- 21 MR JONES That's all right 22 MR IRVIN It takes a village 23 MR JONES That's for sure 24 Q. BY MR JONES Exhibit 25 includes all of the 25 documents in PACCAR's possession related to warnings Asbestos Reporters GPS affiliate 214-347-4781 Paccar Inc. PMQ Rodney Curbo September 26 2023 206 1 provided to Kenworth and Peterbilt customers concerning 2 asbestos in Kenworth and Peterbilt trucks true 3 A. To the best of my knowledge I think during 4 this -- the time frame specified in these requests 5 Q. Well it's from nine -- the request is 1972 to 6 1999 true 7 A. That's -- yes 8 Q. Okay A. That's what I recall 10 Q. Are you aware if that request was for every 11 warning ever no matter the time Would there be any 12 other documents 13 A. Not that I'm aware of But we specifically 14 looked for the time frame associated with this case 15 Q. Fair enough 16 The first two -- there's three documents 17 in this set Exhibit 25 True 18 A. Actually I believe there's five 19 Q. Oh are there 20 A. Yes 21 So there is two copies of the Rockwell 22 maintenance manual There's a copy of an Eaton 23 maintenance manual There is a maintenance guide from 24 Eaton which is very difficult to read 25 Q. What page does that show up on Asbestos Reporters GPS affiliate 214-347-4781 Paccar Inc. PMQ Rodney Curbo September 26 2023 207 1 A. 2189 right at the end It's the last the 2 last -- the last three pages are two different 3 documents 4 Q. Got it Okay 5 A. Maybe It may be the same document It's a 6 little difficult to tell 7 But there's a maintenance guide for Eaton 8 that I think is a separate document It starts on 2190 2189 may be part of that I'm not a percent 10 sure 11 Q. Okay I'm going to include all the Eaton stuff 12 in one thing -- 13 A. Okay 14 Q. -- even though it may be one to three things 15 A. Okay 16 Q. Is that okay 17 I can't find a date on those last two 18 things 19 A. Okay 20 Q. That's basically why I'm doing it 21 So the first two documents are Rockwell 22 Advanced Field Maintenance Manuals 23 A. Yes 24 Q. Dated 1978 25 A. Yes Asbestos Reporters GPS affiliate 214-347-4781 Paccar Inc. PMQ Rodney Curbo September 26 2023 208 1 Q. Okay Do you have any evidence that Eaton ever 2 received these manuals before 1978 3 A. Sorry Can you repeat that question 4 Q. Do you have a Rockwell Advanced Field 5 Maintenance Manual with an asbestos warning dated before 6 1978 7 A. We do not have a copy 8 My understanding is that Rockwell began putting warnings in their manuals in 1976 10 Q. Do you have any evidence that PACCAR received 11 that warning in 1976 12 A. I have no reason to believe that we didn't but 13 we do not have any documents 14 Q. If you looked through PACCAR's documents do 15 you have any reason to believe that you did receive that 16 document 17 A. Our standard practice was to pass along 18 maintenance manuals from our component suppliers so I 19 have no reason to believe that we would not have -- I 20 have every reason to believe that we would have passed 21 those -- that same manual along in 1976 22 Q. And your understanding is that Rockwell has 23 said in these asbestos cases that it started putting a 24 warning in manuals in 1976 25 MR IRVIN Argumentative overbroad Asbestos Reporters GPS affiliate 214-347-4781 Paccar Inc. PMQ Rodney Curbo September 26 2023 209 1 vague ambiguous 2 A. My understanding from -- well specifically 3 talk -- spoke with Rockwell's corporate representative 4 and he confirmed that they started including asbestos 5 warnings in their manuals in 1976 6 Q. BY MR JONES And when you say corporate 7 representative you mean corporate representative in 8 asbestos litigation right A. Yes sir 10 Q. Okay So the only information you have is from 11 outside of PACCAR about that right 12 A. That's correct 13 Q. Okay That's something you knew from when you 14 worked there right 15 A. That's correct 16 Q. And you haven't found a document within 17 PACCAR's documents demonstrating that it got a warning 18 as early as 1976 19 A. That's correct 20 Q. Okay And then the third document is Eaton 21 Drum Brake Service Manual and that one's dated 1982 22 true 23 A. Yes 24 Q. And do you have any evidence in PACCAR's files 25 indicating that PACCAR received a warning from Eaton Asbestos Reporters GPS affiliate 214-347-4781 Paccar Inc. PMQ Rodney Curbo September 26 2023 210 1 about asbestos before 1982 2 A. I don't 3 Q. Okay And PACCAR doesn't have any documents 4 relating to warnings for clutches or gaskets true 5 A. None that I recall seeing 6 Q. As of 2011 you didn't know if anybody at 7 PACCAR had even read these warnings true 8 MR IRVIN Improper impeachment vague ambiguous overbroad 10 A. Well I'm not for sure I understand your 11 question Can you rephrase it 12 Q. BY MR JONES I can 13 Do you know if anybody at PACCAR ever even even 14 read these warnings 15 A. I have no reason to believe that they wouldn't 16 have 17 MR JONES Do you still have the Morrison Morrison 18 transcript in that stack Yeah 19 MR IRVIN This is my stack But -- 20 MR JONES Okay 21 MR IRVIN -- I'll make sure I don't have 22 23 24 25 any MR JONES MR IRVIN MR JONES I don't need it I've got it Okay I've got it electronically I Asbestos Reporters GPS affiliate 214-347-4781 Paccar Inc. PMQ Rodney Curbo September 26 2023 211 1 don't need it 2 MR IRVIN Okay 3 MR JONES Don't give it to me 4 MR IRVIN Okay 5 What page and line do you 6 MR JONES 106 page 5 7 THE WITNESS Can we go off the record for for 8 a second MR JONES When I'm done with this -- 10 THE WITNESS Okay 11 MR JONES yes -- 12 THE WITNESS Thank you 13 Q. BY MR JONES Mr. Curbo this is your 14 deposition testimony from 2011 in the Morrison case 15 true 16 A. It appears to be yes 17 Q. And at page 106 line 5 to 6 you're asked the 18 question Did PACCAR read the warning before they 19 included it in their maintenance manual 20 Did I read that correctly 21 A. You did 22 Q. And then at lines 9 to 10 your answer was H 23 can't tell you for sure if anybody at PACCAR read the 24 warning 25 Did I read that correctly Asbestos Reporters GPS affiliate 214-347-4781 Paccar Inc. PMQ Rodney Curbo September 26 2023 212 1 A. You did 2 MR JONES Okay Let's go off the 3 record 4 THE VIDEOGRAPHER The time is 11:00 a.m. 5 We are now off the record 6 Break was from 11:00 a.m. to 11:01 a.m. 7 THE VIDEOGRAPHER The time is 11:01 a.m. 8 We are now back on the record Counsel you may proceed 10 Q. BY MR JONES Did you find any documents in 11 PACCAR's files that demonstrate that the warnings in the 12 manuals we just looked at were actually sent to 13 customers 14 MR IRVIN Vague ambiguous 15 A. Well I would say two things 16 First of all from my personal experience 17 whenever I was working as a mechanic I know that 18 manuals were sent with the trucks 19 And secondly that's one of the questions 20 in people that I interviewed especially the people who 21 worked in our Test Department in the plant that I would 22 ask to confirm And so I've confirmed it with people 23 who worked in the plant and I've had -- I had personal 24 experience of that occurring 25 MR JONES I move to strike as Asbestos Reporters GPS affiliate 214-347-4781 Paccar Inc. PMQ Rodney Curbo September 26 2023 213 1 nonresponsive 2 Can you read back my last question 3 please 4 THE REPORTER One moment 5 Requested portion read 6 A. Well again the reason that I have that 7 information is personal experience and something that I 8 followed up And I don't recall any documents that specifically state that we passed those manuals along 10 But I know from personal experience and from talking 11 with people that we did 12 Q. Okay 13 MR JONES I move to strike as 14 nonresponsive 15 Q. BY MR JONES And my question only relates to 16 documents found in PACCAR's files Do you understand 17 that 18 A. I understand your question 19 Q. Okay And I'm not asking about your personal 20 experience And I'm not asking about your conversations 21 you had with other people Okay Do you understand 22 that 23 A. I understand that 24 Q. Okay And you've already told me that so you 25 don't have to tell me again Okay Asbestos Reporters GPS affiliate 214-347-4781 Paccar Inc. PMQ Rodney Curbo September 26 2023 214 1 And he's going to ask about that when he 2 comes back at the end of this So it's going to get out out 3 there Okay I don't want you to think that it's not 4 going to happen It's happened and it's probably going going 5 to happen again Okay 6 We on the same page 7 A. We are 8 Q. Okay What documents did you locate in PACCAR's files indicating that PACCAR actually sent the 10 warnings found in Exhibit 25 to customers 11 A. Well as I just stated in my previous answer I 12 don't recall seeing any specific documents 13 Q. Okay Thank you 14 Now you also said in your experience 15 those manuals were sent -- were to customers is that 16 right 17 A. They were sent with every truck They were 18 also -- that was what our maintenance manuals at the 19 dealerships were made up and included those maintenance 20 manuals And they were also available to purchase by 21 customers 22 And when I say they were available for 23 purchase what I'm talking about is the complete 24 maintenance manuals which would have included these 25 types of manuals Asbestos Reporters GPS affiliate 214-347-4781 Paccar Inc. PMQ Rodney Curbo September 26 2023 215 1 Q. And you also mentioned -- well first of all 2 as far as your personal experience as of 2011 you 3 didn't even know if anybody read the warnings in the 4 Rockwell manual right 5 A. Well I believe what I said is I can't tell you 6 for sure if anybody did 7 Q. Well you would be among those people that were 8 at PACCAR right A. I'm -- I wasn't at PACCAR in say 1972 In 10 1978 I wasn't at PACCAR 11 Q. Okay And you mentioned that you talked to 12 people at the plants That's the investigation you did 13 where you didn't take any notes Right 14 MR IRVIN No. Asked and answered 15 A. That's correct I did not take notes 16 Q. BY MR JONES And we've already found that 17 some of the information that you got from those many 18 interviews was inaccurate true 19 A. I'm not going to say whether or not it was 20 inaccurate It just doesn't seem to line up with some 21 of the documents that we found It happens often 22 That's why we do investigations is to flesh that out 23 Q. Well I did the investigation right 24 MR IRVIN No. Misstates testimony 25 A. I'm not for sure what you're referring to Asbestos Reporters GPS affiliate 214-347-4781 Paccar Inc. PMQ Rodney Curbo September 26 2023 216 1 Q. BY MR JONES Well PACCAR didn't do the 2 investigation I'm the one that found the Abex 3 documents that show that PACCAR was ordering brake 4 linings directly from Abex and shipping them to the 5 distributors right 6 A. Well I'm not for sure that that's what those 7 documents specifically say 8 Q. Have you read them now A. I -- the ones that you presented to me yes 10 MR IRVIN Misstates testimony Vague 11 and ambiguous to the last question 12 Q. BY MR JONES Do you have an example of a 13 Kenworth or Peterbilt manual that included the warning 14 information from Eaton and Rockwell that we attached as 15 Exhibit 25 16 MR IRVIN Well vague ambiguous 17 A. I'm trying to figure out how to answer that 18 question because it doesn't make sense with what 19 happened so let me try and explain 20 Q. BY MR JONES Well I understand what 21 happened according to your testimony 22 Your testimony is when a warning comes in 23 from Eaton or Rockwell or anybody else when 24 information for a particular component parts come in be 25 it the engine the transmission the brakes and axle Asbestos Reporters GPS affiliate 214-347-4781 Paccar Inc. PMQ Rodney Curbo September 26 2023 217 1 whatever it is there is a manual that includes those 2 different pamphlets from the component part suppliers 3 true 4 A. So that -- if you want to call it a manual that 5 includes those that's -- that would be the entirety of 6 the maintenance manual which was provided to our 7 dealerships which was made up of Peterbilt or Kenworth 8 maintenance manual which covered the proprietary information the proprietary parts that we designed and 10 installed on trucks 11 It also included maintenance manuals from 12 our component suppliers So that manual is what was the 13 maintenance manual that was available to our dealerships 14 but also available for customers to purchase 15 Included in every truck was a maintenance 16 manual from Peterbilt or Kenworth depending on what 17 truck it was a maintenance manual from the axle 18 supplier a maintenance manual from the brake supplier 19 a maintenance manual from the engine supplier 20 So those were independent and individual 21 manuals which were provided 22 Q. Okay So my question is Do you have an 23 example of any Kenworth or Peterbilt manual that 24 includes an asbestos warning ever 25 Reporter clarification Asbestos Reporters GPS affiliate 214-347-4781 Paccar Inc. PMQ Rodney Curbo September 26 2023 218 1 A. Well the Kenworth and Peterbilt manuals would 2 have included -- would have been proprietary parts and 3 components that we designed 4 Q. BY MR JONES Sir I'm talking about the copy copy 5 of this manual that included the sections from the 6 component part suppliers like the Eaton and Rockwell 7 maintenance manuals we attached as Exhibit 25 8 Do you understand what I'm saying A. No I don't 10 Q. Okay So you say there's a Kenworth manual H 11 believe you described it as like a three binder or 12 something like that Right 13 A. The Kenworth manual itself inaudible -- 14 Q. I'm saying the Kenworth manual that includes 15 the information from the component part suppliers You 16 understand that 17 A. I'm going to use a term -- and let's get 18 terminology and maybe it'll help -- 19 Q. Okay 20 A. -- to make sure we're -- 21 Q. Sure 22 A. -- communicating correct 23 So the master maintenance manual included 24 a Kenworth manual -- so at a Kenworth dealership the 25 master maintenance manual included a Kenworth manual Asbestos Reporters GPS affiliate 214-347-4781 Paccar Inc. PMQ Rodney Curbo September 26 2023 219 1 Rockwell manuals Eaton manuals Fuller manuals for 2 transmissions Cat Cummins and Detroit manuals as 3 well as well as others 4 Q. Let me show you what I'll mark as Exhibit 26 to 5 the deposition 6 Exhibit 26 marked 7 Q. BY MR JONES What's the chassis number on 8 that please A. This is 236740 10 Q. Thank you 11 MR JONES Let's go off the record and 12 you can give that thing a look 13 THE VIDEOGRAPHER The time is 11:12 a.m. 14 We are now off the record 15 Break was from 11:12 a.m. to 11:19 a.m. 16 THE VIDEOGRAPHER The time is 11:19 a.m. 17 Counsel you may proceed 18 Q. BY MR JONES What is Exhibit 26 19 A. So whenever I was talking about maintenance 20 manuals I failed to mention you can also purchase a 21 maintenance manual specific for your chassis 22 So this is a -- I'm going to call it 23 custom maintenance manual for the specific Chassis 24 236740 which it appears the customer purchased 25 Q. BY MR JONES And the customer who purchased Asbestos Reporters GPS affiliate 214-347-4781 Paccar Inc. PMQ Rodney Curbo September 26 2023 220 1 that chassis was Richard Petty 2 A. That's correct 3 Q. Do you know if that's the race car driver 4 A. Don't know 5 Q. Do you know if the race car driver bought any 6 Kenworths 7 A. Don't know 8 Q. Okay Does that appear to be a Kenworth maintenance manual for a 1974 Kenworth truck 10 A. It does 11 Q. Okay And is that an example of the manual 12 that you could buy from Kenworth that included 13 information from the component suppliers like Eaton or 14 Rockwell 15 A. Yes 16 Q. Okay You looked at the section on brakes 17 A. I did 18 Q. Did you see any warnings about asbestos in the 19 1974 manual 20 A. I didn't notice them 21 I was looking fairly quickly 22 Q. Okay Give it another look please 23 A. Witness reading 24 I don't -- it doesn't appear H 25 didn't -- again I didn't notice it if it is -- if there Asbestos Reporters GPS affiliate 214-347-4781 Paccar Inc. PMQ Rodney Curbo September 26 2023 221 1 is 2 Q. Okay And I also handed you what I marked as 3 Exhibit 27 4 Exhibit 27 marked 5 Q. BY MR JONES What is Exhibit 27 6 A. It's the Final Chassis Bill of Material for 7 Chassis Number 236740 which corresponds to the chassis 8 number for this custom maintenance manual Q. Okay And Exhibit 26 was a document compiled 10 by Kenworth true 11 A. Appears to be 12 Q. It includes information published by Kenworth 13 and information published by component suppliers to 14 Kenworth true 15 A. That's my understanding 16 Q. And Exhibit 27 is a true and correct copy of a 17 Kenworth document 18 A. Appears to be 19 MR IRVIN Trey that's not the one 20 that's -- with the watermark on it so we won't fight 21 you on that But after the depo I'd like just to 22 check the -- compared to ours 23 MR JONES Sure 24 MR IRVIN Okay 25 MR JONES Ure Asbestos Reporters GPS affiliate 214-347-4781 Paccar Inc. PMQ Rodney Curbo September 26 2023 222 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 10 11 12 MR IRVIN I don't have a reason to distrust you I just trust our documents more than ones without the Bates and the watermark Q. BY MR JONES Does that appear to be a true and correct copy of a Kenworth document A. It does Q. Published by Kenworth A. It appears to be yes Q. And that is an example of kind of the recipe for a truck right A. Well this is a record of all the parts that were used to assemble a truck 13 Q. So that would include things like the axles and 14 brakes and engine transmission and all those sorts of 15 things right 16 A. Yes 17 Q. And then the idea is that document has parts 18 numbers right 19 A. Yes 20 Q. So that if someone goes to a Kenworth dealer 21 they can ask for a replacement for the windshield wiper 22 And someone at the dealer can look at that document 23 find the part number and order that replacement 24 A. Correct 25 Q. Okay Does PACCAR have an example of a Asbestos Reporters GPS affiliate 214-347-4781 Paccar Inc. PMQ Rodney Curbo September 26 2023 223 1 maintenance manual from Kenworth or Peterbilt like what 2 we attached as Exhibit 26 that includes the warning 3 information 4 A. Not that I recall 5 Q. Okay Now you mentioned that there was a 6 manual that went into the trucks either the glove box 7 or the sleeper cabinet -- or compartment right 8 A. Yes Q. Is it your testimony that that manual had 10 asbestos warnings in it 11 A. I think that's what we've said is that for 12 example the 1978 Rockwell manual that we produced we 13 believe that's one that we passed along 14 Q. Okay Do you have any documents in the PACCAR 15 repository that demonstrate that warning materials from 16 suppliers was included with the truck in either the 17 glove box or the sleeper compartment 18 MR IRVIN Asked and answered vague 19 ambiguous 20 A. I'm going to give a little bit of background 21 There yes -- there are some depending on 22 the time frame And the reason I'm going to give 23 background is essentially what happened -- 24 Q. BY MR JONES I don't need background 25 MR IRVIN Well let him finish his Asbestos Reporters GPS affiliate 214-347-4781 Paccar Inc. PMQ Rodney Curbo September 26 2023 224 1 answer inaudible 2 Q. BY MR JONES I just want to know And if you 3 can -- you've got the documents next to you Right 4 A. I have the documents that were produced in this 5 case 6 Q. 7 case Okay Only the documents produced in this 8 A. Well there's a hundred thousand Final Chassis Bill of Materials that I don't believe were produced in 10 this case 11 Q. Fair enough 12 And you've got the binders right next to 13 you 14 A. For what was produced in this case 15 Q. Can you show me the document that demonstrates 16 that a warning from suppliers was included in the glove 17 box or sleeper compartment of PACCAR trucks including 18 Kenworth and Peterbilt trucks 19 A. I don't believe during this time frame that 20 it's documented 21 Over time we began documenting those 22 particular manuals and the Final Chassis Bill of 23 Material in our bills of material 24 But previously it was simply the test 25 mechanics in our Test Department at our factories would Asbestos Reporters GPS affiliate 214-347-4781 Paccar Inc. PMQ Rodney Curbo September 26 2023 225 1 look at the order determine what components were on the 2 truck and they would include those manuals 3 Q. Okay 4 A. That was the process previously 5 At -- I don't know exactly what date we 6 began to include the manual part numbers in our Bills of 7 Material 8 Q. Do you have a single sheet of paper found in PACCAR's files that indicates that warning information 10 was put in the glove box or sleeper compartment of 11 Kenworth and Peterbilt trucks 12 And by warning information I mean 13 asbestos warnings 14 A. Not that I can put my hands on right now 15 Q. Okay I mean it -- do you want to go off the 16 record and you can look for it 17 A. It's fine 18 Q. I -- you don't think that it's in there right 19 A. As I said I don't think that during this time 20 frame when these trucks were built that it was part of 21 the bills of materials ... 22 Q. When did that start 23 A. I just said I don't know re -- I don't know 24 when that started 25 Q. So when is the first time any asbestos warning Asbestos Reporters GPS affiliate 214-347-4781 Paccar Inc. PMQ Rodney Curbo September 26 2023 226 1 information ever went into the glove box or a sleeper 2 compartment of a Kenworth or Peterbilt truck 3 A. Well we believe that we have a document that 4 would have been passed along which is a 1978 document 5 And we've been told by Rockwell that they included 6 warnings in their 1976 manuals so at least by 1976 7 Q. And where is the evidence that that was put in 8 the glove compartment or sleeper compartment of a Kenworth or Peterbilt truck 10 A. I don't have any document that I can put my 11 hands on right now that shows that 12 Q. As of 1997 PACCAR didn't know if it 13 communicated any warnings to customers at all true 14 A. I don't know what you're referring to 15 Q. In 1997 did PACCAR know if it had ever 16 communicated warnings to customers 17 A. I don't know 18 I wasn't involved in this litigation at 19 that time and I don't believe that I specifically asked 20 that question 21 Q. Let me show you what I'll mark as Exhibit 29 to 22 the deposition Oh pardon me 28 to the deposition 23 Exhibit 28 marked 24 A. Okay 25 Q. BY MR JONES Exhibit 12 is Defendant Asbestos Reporters GPS affiliate 214-347-4781 Paccar Inc. PMQ Rodney Curbo September 26 2023 227 1 Kenworth Truck Company and PACCAR Inc individually and 2 through its division Peterbilt Motors Company Answers 3 to Plaintiffs First Set of Interrogatories Vehicle and 4 Engine Defendants 5 Did I read that correctly 6 A. You did read that correctly 7 Q. And that is in State of New York 7th Judicial 8 District And then on the right it says Asbestos Litigation underlined 10 Do you see that 11 A. Yes I do 12 MR IRVIN And for the record 13 you're -- you said Exhibit 12. We're speaking of 14 Exhibit 27 15 MR JONES 27 that's right 16 THE WITNESS 28 17 MR IRVIN 28 18 MR JONES 28 19 We're taking turns 20 Brent my man are we really on 28 All 21 right We're really on -- this is 28 All right 22 I got to triple myself 23 Q. BY MR JONES Okay What I described before 24 is Exhibit 28 whatever number I had assigned to it 25 before True Asbestos Reporters GPS affiliate 214-347-4781 Paccar Inc. PMQ Rodney Curbo September 26 2023 228 1 A. I'm sorry I was -- 2 Q. Sure 3 A. I wasn't listening 4 Q. These are PACCAR's responses to asbestos 5 interrogatories in 1997 true 6 A. It appears to be 7 Q. And they're verified by PACCAR -- PACCAR'S 8 attorney I believe at the end Do you see that A. They're verified by an attorney 10 Q. Okay 11 A. It says attorney -- yeah Attorneys for 12 Kenworth and PACCAR 13 Q. Okay And then -- 14 MR IRVIN And can I have a running 15 objection Because it was verified by a attorney not a 16 client And then we'll address that at the time of 17 trial 18 MR JONES Sure 19 MR IRVIN Thank you 20 Q. BY MR JONES In Interrogatory No. 1 on the 21 second page they list the people that they got 22 information from Do you see that 23 A. Yeah It says -- yeah 24 They identify the -- each person who 25 either consulted with or who provided information used Asbestos Reporters GPS affiliate 214-347-4781 Paccar Inc. PMQ Rodney Curbo September 26 2023 229 1 in answering these interrogatories 2 Q. Do you recognize the PACCAR people listed 3 A. I do 4 Q. Who is Richard Slosson 5 A. Richard Slosson was a risk manager at PACCAR 6 Q. What does that mean 7 A. Worked in PACCAR Legal I'm not for sure 8 exactly what the -- what his responsibilities were Q. How far back did he go at PACCAR 10 A. Don't know 11 Q. Okay Virgil E. Pound who was Mr. Pound 12 A. At the time he was the senior technical 13 director at Corporate Legal 14 Q. And -- at Corporate Legal 15 A. I believe he was -- at the time he was working 16 at PACCAR 17 Q. Do you know how long he had been at PACCAR 18 A. Quite a while 19 Q. Okay Quite a while before 1997 20 A. Yes 21 Q. Okay And then who's Dave Bissonnette 22 A. Dave Bissonnette was a industrial hygienist for 23 PACCAR 24 Q. And we know he goes back to the mid 1970s 25 true Asbestos Reporters GPS affiliate 214-347-4781 Paccar Inc. PMQ Rodney Curbo September 26 2023 230 1 A. Yes 2 Q. Okay Can you please go to Interrogatory 3 No. 12 at page 13 4 Interrogatory No. 12 asks for warning 5 information supplied by PACCAR for asbestos components 6 true 7 A. It -- yes it appears to 8 Q. And it's limited to the time period 1970 to 1980 correct 10 A. Yes it is 11 Q. And PACCAR's answer in 1997 about asbestos 12 warnings is and I quote It is not known if warnings 13 or explanations were placed in the vehicles during the 14 years 1970 to 1980 15 Did I read that correctly 16 A. You did 17 MR IRVIN Hey Trey when do you plan on 18 taking a lunch break 19 MR JONES Whenever you like 20 MR IRVIN I just wanted us to preorder 21 our lunch this time so it didn't take so long So you 22 know when you think you're like 30 minutes out or -- I 23 guess we should ask Rod and the other folks here Like 24 when we're 30 minutes out can we take -- 25 MR JONES Yeah Let's take -- we'll Asbestos Reporters GPS affiliate 214-347-4781 Paccar Inc. PMQ Rodney Curbo September 26 2023 231 1 take a break after this 2 MR IRVIN And then we can -- yeah H 3 just don't want that delay again that we can hopefully 4 finish today 5 MR JONES Sure 6 Q. BY MR JONES In interrogatories in 2009 7 PACCAR didn't mention any warnings supplied with the 8 trucks true A. I don't know 10 Q. Let me show you what I'll mark as Exhibit 29 to 11 the deposition 12 Exhibit 29 marked 13 Q. BY MR JONES And I'm going to ask you about 14 Interrogatory No. 57 15 A. Witness reading 16 Q. Exhibit 29 is Defendant PACCAR Inc's Responses 17 to Plaintiffs Standard Interrogatories to All 18 Defendants In Re Complex Asbestos Litigation in Superior 19 Court of California County of San Francisco True 20 A. That's what it appears to be 21 Q. And you recognize the law firm at the top left 22 of this document 23 A. I do 24 Q. That's the same firm that represents PACCAR in 25 this case Asbestos Reporters GPS affiliate 214-347-4781 Paccar Inc. PMQ Rodney Curbo September 26 2023 232 1 A. Yes 2 Q. 3 true Okay These interrogatories are from 2009 4 A. Yes 5 Q. 6 true They're verified by Larry Bean for PACCAR 7 A. Yes 8 Q. And Mr. Bean was a corporate representative in asbestos cases before you took that role true 10 A. I believe so yes 11 Q. Okay Can you please go to Interrogatory 12 No. 57 13 Interrogatory 57 asks about warnings for 14 the health hazards of asbestos related to 15 containing friction products true 16 A. That's what it appears to be 17 Q. And as far as PACCAR is concerned the 18 containing friction products are brakes and 19 clutches true 20 A. Yes 21 Q. And then in response to the interrogatory in 22 2009 does PACCAR mention that warning information was 23 provided in the glove compartment or sleeper box of 24 trucks 25 A. Witness reading Asbestos Reporters GPS affiliate 214-347-4781 Paccar Inc. PMQ Rodney Curbo September 26 2023 233 1 It doesn't get to that level of 2 specificity but it does state Further answering 3 subject to objection Peterbilt and Kenworth distributed 4 service literature relating to their heavy duty trucks 5 at various points in time This material included 6 service literature authored and published by the 7 component manufacturers which Peterbilt and Kenworth 8 are informed and believe contained warnings at various points in time According -- 10 Q. And that would be -- oh sorry 11 A. Reading Accordingly this interrogatory is 12 inappropriately directed to PACCAR and should instead 13 be addressed to component part manufacturers who are in 14 a better position to answer questions regarding warnings 15 associated with their containing products 16 Q. Okay That document doesn't mention the 17 warning going in the sleeper box or the glove box 18 right 19 A. It just says -- it's a general statement that 20 says that we distributed that information 21 Q. Okay 22 A. It doesn't get into the how 23 Q. Let me show you what I'll mark as Exhibit 30 to 24 the deposition 25 Exhibit 30 marked Asbestos Reporters GPS affiliate 214-347-4781 Paccar Inc. PMQ Rodney Curbo September 26 2023 234 1 MR IRVIN After this one can we take 2 our break to order lunch 3 MR JONES We can do it now if you want 4 MR IRVIN Yeah Let's -- well -- 5 MR JONES Fair enough 6 MR IRVIN I don't mean to interrupt you 7 right when you're going through an exhibit ... 8 Q. BY MR JONES Exhibit 30 is Defendant PACCAR Inc's Answers and Responses to Plaintiffs First Set of 10 Interrogatories and Request for Production of Documents 11 in the District Court of Creek County State of 12 Oklahoma in the Adams case True 13 A. That's what it appears to be 14 Q. And this set of discovery was verified by you 15 on November 2014 true 16 A. Yes 17 Q. If you go to Interrogatory No. 8 on page 16 18 there's a long question about information for equipment 19 identified in Plaintiffs work history in this 20 particular case And then it asks for specific 21 information in subparts a through k true 22 A. It appears to I haven't read the entirety of 23 the request yet 24 Q. The only part I'm going to ask you about is 25 subpart k Well a and k Asbestos Reporters GPS affiliate 214-347-4781 Paccar Inc. PMQ Rodney Curbo September 26 2023 235 1 So A is the trade name or the brand name 2 of the equipment right 3 A. Yes 4 Q. And then if you look in the answer it says 5 it's Kenworth and Peterbilt right You see that 6 A. Witness reading No I do not 7 Q. You see that the answer mentions Kenworth and 8 Peterbilt That's the only thing I'm asking A. Well the answer says Kenworth and Peterbilt 10 never used raw asbestos nor did they manufacture 11 containing products Rather they assembled 12 and sold heavy duty trucks 13 Then it goes on to talk about components 14 that were manufactured by various component suppliers 15 and that PACCAR which would be Peterbilt and Kenworth 16 is informed and believes that some of these preassembled 17 component parts may have at various points in time 18 incorporated brakes clutches and gaskets that contain 19 some form of encapsulated chrysotile 20 Q. Okay Subpart k asks for warning information 21 true A description of any warnings that Defendant 22 placed on the equipment or its packaging operating 23 manuals brochures catalog or other printed material 24 True 25 A. Yes Asbestos Reporters GPS affiliate 214-347-4781 Paccar Inc. PMQ Rodney Curbo September 26 2023 236 1 Q. In 2014 did these interrogatory responses 2 verified by you mention that asbestos warnings were put 3 in the glove box or sleeper compartment of Peterbilt or 4 Kenworth trucks 5 A. It does not 6 MR JONES Let's go off the record 7 THE VIDEOGRAPHER The time is 11:48 a.m. 8 We are now off the record Break was from 11:48 a.m. to 12:11 p.m. 10 THE VIDEOGRAPHER This is the beginning 11 of Medium Unit Number 2. The time is 12:11 p.m. and we 12 are now back on the record 13 Counsel you may proceed 14 Q. BY MR JONES Mr. Curbo in PACCAR's responses 15 to interrogatories in this case when asked about 16 warnings provided about asbestos PACCAR said that it 17 included warning information in the glove compartments 18 or sleeper compartments of the trucks true 19 A. Yes 20 Q. That's a very big deal right 21 A. Well I think what we know is from -- I forget 22 which one of these -- we said we distributed We didn't 23 talk about how 24 My under -- my -- I believe the 25 1978 Rockwell manual was found in like the 2016 time Asbestos Reporters GPS affiliate 214-347-4781 Paccar Inc. PMQ Rodney Curbo September 26 2023 237 1 frame And that's when I believe we changed our 2 responses to say that we passed along warnings not just 3 that we passed along maintenance manuals like we said 4 previously 5 Q. But where's the evidence that that was put in 6 the glove box of trucks 7 A. Well like I've said I've told you my personal 8 experience I -- when work -- I worked as a mechanic Those manuals came either in the glove box or the 10 sleeper compartment of the truck 11 And I talked with probably the most 12 credible person and by that I mean the person who knew 13 the most was a gentleman by the name of Rich Rhodes 14 who worked in Newark at the Peterbilt factory 15 And there was another gentleman who was 16 a -- Rich worked in the Peterbilt factory in the Test 17 Department as a supervisor And he confirmed 18 that -- this is back in the 80s whenever I asked that 19 question He confirmed that -- or not back in the 80s 20 back -- sorry 21 We were talking about that back in the 22 80s when I first started working at Peterbilt we had 23 racks of manuals and we placed them in trucks even 24 in -- during that time frame And he confirmed that 25 back in the late 60s early 70s they did exactly the Asbestos Reporters GPS affiliate 214-347-4781 Paccar Inc. PMQ Rodney Curbo September 26 2023 238 1 same thing 2 And there was another gentleman that 3 worked for Kenworth His name escapes me right now He 4 was a product -- what's the right term He was the 5 engineering manager at one of the plants that happened 6 to be at the Kansas City Kenworth plant and he 7 confirmed the same back into the 70s 8 Q. And if the warning is actually in the truck that's a big deal because that means anybody that drives 10 the truck would have access to the warnings true 11 A. Yes 12 Q. And that would mean anybody that worked on the 13 truck would have access to the warnings true 14 A. Yes 15 Q. If only the dealership had the warnings then 16 maybe the customer never saw it right 17 A. Possibly 18 Q. And if you had to buy the manual that had the 19 warning then maybe the customer never saw it right 20 A. If they didn't buy the manual 21 Q. PACCAR made a different manual than what we've 22 attached as Exhibit 26 and that manual was meant to go 23 in a glove box true 24 A. Correct 25 Q. It's not the same as Exhibit 26 true Asbestos Reporters GPS affiliate 214-347-4781 Paccar Inc. PMQ Rodney Curbo September 26 2023 239 1 A. That's correct 2 Q. Let me show you what I'll mark as Exhibit 31 to 3 the deposition 4 Exhibit 31 marked 5 MR IRVIN This is 32 6 MR JONES I don't think so 7 MR IRVIN No 31 All right Math was 8 never my strong suit Is that a Operators Manual Yeah 10 THE WITNESS Yeah Operators and Service 11 Manual 12 Q. BY MR JONES What is Exhibit 32 sic 13 A. It's what we generally refer to as a operators 14 manual 15 Q. That's what goes in the glove box 16 A. This is one of the manuals that goes in the 17 glove box 18 Q. What's the date of that manual 19 A. This is 1985 20 Q. Okay Are there any warnings about asbestos in 21 that manual 22 A. Witness reading 23 I -- just quickly skimming I don't see 24 any asbestos warnings in this manual 25 Q. Okay Do you agree with me that in general Asbestos Reporters GPS affiliate 214-347-4781 Paccar Inc. PMQ Rodney Curbo September 26 2023 240 1 when component suppliers provide PACCAR with 2 information specifically with maintenance information 3 PACCAR would take that information and it would be 4 included in its master maintenance manuals And exactly 5 how that was sent to PACCAR you don't know True 6 MR IRVIN Well vague ambiguous 7 overbroad argumentative and compound 8 Q. BY MR JONES I'll withdraw I'll ask the question again because of the compound objection 10 Would you agree with me that in general if 11 a component supplier provided PACCAR with information 12 specifically with maintenance information PACCAR would 13 take that information and it would be included in 14 PACCAR's master maintenance manuals 15 A. What I would agree with is that we would 16 include the component suppliers maintenance manuals in 17 with our master maintenance manual 18 Q. The master maintenance manuals are three 19 binders which include maintenance manuals from multiple 20 component suppliers and those maintenance manuals from 21 component suppliers would be distributed to the people 22 who had those master maintenance manuals true 23 A. Yes 24 Q. The master maintenance manual unless otherwise 25 requested by a driver user or purchaser of a truck Asbestos Reporters GPS affiliate 214-347-4781 Paccar Inc. PMQ Rodney Curbo September 26 2023 241 1 goes to PACCAR's dealerships correct 2 A. That's correct 3 Q. In 1978 after PACCAR received the warning from 4 Rockwell it did not include that information in the 5 operators manual that came with the truck true 6 A. That's correct with the operator's manual 7 Q. Okay You're saying that there's another 8 manual that's not like Exhibit 26 and it's not like Exhibit 31 that fits in a glove box 10 MR IRVIN Misstates testimony 11 A. It -- yes that is what I'm saying 12 Q. BY MR JONES Okay And you don't have a 13 single sheet of paper that says that ever happened 14 true 15 MR IRVIN Asked and answered 16 argumentative 17 A. Can you rephrase the question with more 18 specificity 19 Q. BY MR JONES You don't have a single piece of 20 paper that says -- that indicates in any way that PACCAR 21 included warning information in the trucks it sold that 22 included asbestos warnings true 23 MR IRVIN Misstates testimony vague 24 ambiguous 25 A. Not at my fingertips right now that I can Asbestos Reporters GPS affiliate 214-347-4781 Paccar Inc. PMQ Rodney Curbo September 26 2023 242 1 remember 2 Q. BY MR JONES And the evidence you have is 3 from interviews you had with people where you didn't 4 record the interviews true 5 A. That's true 6 Q. And you didn't take any notes from the 7 interviews true 8 MR IRVIN Asked and answered argumentative 10 A. That's correct 11 Q. BY MR JONES Okay So as far as that we 12 have to take your word for it right 13 A. Yes 14 Q. And people that have done sworn interrogatories 15 before you never mentioned anything about warnings going 16 in the actual trucks right 17 A. Well what I would say is in those 18 interrogatories they did refer to the manuals going 19 into the trucks or being distributed 20 They didn't say how they were distributed 21 We already talked about that I don't know whether or 22 not they knew whether -- if there were warnings in there 23 at that time 24 Q. The first person to ever say that that 25 information went in the compartments of trucks be it Asbestos Reporters GPS affiliate 214-347-4781 Paccar Inc. PMQ Rodney Curbo September 26 2023 243 1 the glove box or the sleeper box is you true 2 A. I prob -- I may be the first one to say it in 3 legal proceeding like a deposition I don't believe I'm 4 the first person to say it because it happened 5 Q. And you didn't say it happened in 2011 when you 6 were specifically asked about it true 7 A. Well in 2011 I believe I was asked about 8 warnings and at that time we didn't -- I don't believe we knew that warnings existed in those manuals 10 Was -- I just stated a couple minutes ago 11 I believe it was in the 2016 time frame that we 12 discovered that Rockwell maintenance manual with the 13 warning 14 Q. Sir in 2011 you specifically talked about the 15 warning only you described it as being from Meritor 16 true 17 A. Don't recall 18 Q. Okay 19 MR JONES Do you have the Morrison 20 deposition 21 MR IRVIN No. 22 MR JONES You just had it earlier 23 MR IRVIN I did but I think I gave it 24 to you or Rod 25 MR JONES I don't have it I've Asbestos Reporters GPS affiliate 214-347-4781 Paccar Inc. PMQ Rodney Curbo September 26 2023 244 1 been -- I'm using ... 2 MR IRVIN Which line and page are you 3 going to go to 4 Q. BY MR JONES Okay Can you please go to 5 page 92 line ? 6 A. Witness reading 7 Q. In 2011 you did know about the warnings 8 supplied by Rockwell in 1978 true A. Well it sounds like maybe we did I thought 10 it was 2016 when we found that 11 Q. You for sure did You were specifically asked 12 who was the supplier and you said Meritor right 13 MR IRVIN Well wait So -- 14 A. I was asked What -- do you remember whether 15 it was brake assembly or an axle 16 I said I believe they provided a warning 17 in -- in a maintenance manual 18 For what part is the question 19 Reading I believe it was related to 20 brakes but I'm -- that's the best of my recollection 21 I'm not a percent sure 22 Question Fair enough Do you remember 23 which supplier that was 24 Reading I believe it was Meritor but 25 again I'm not a hundred sure Asbestos Reporters GPS affiliate 214-347-4781 Paccar Inc. PMQ Rodney Curbo September 26 2023 245 1 Q. BY MR JONES Meritor used to be called 2 Rockwell 3 A. That's correct 4 Q. So in 2011 when you were asked about this 5 you knew about the warning from Rockwell true 6 MR IRVIN Well -- 7 A. It sounds like maybe I did 8 Q. BY MR JONES Okay And in 2011 you didn't mention warnings going in glove boxes did you 10 A. I don't recall 11 MR IRVIN Argumentative 12 Q. BY MR JONES Well we just went through that 13 testimony and you said that the operators manual that 14 go -- went in the glove box didn't have the warning 15 information right 16 MR IRVIN Misstates testimony 17 A. The operators manual does not 18 Q. BY MR JONES Okay Why is Exhibit 31 the 19 size it is 20 A. Well because it's an operators manual it's 21 not the maintenance manual 22 Q. Okay And so if we look at it by comparison 23 this is the manual that would go to the dealership 24 true 25 MR IRVIN No. Asbestos Reporters GPS affiliate 214-347-4781 Paccar Inc. PMQ Rodney Curbo September 26 2023 246 1 A. That particular manual is -- as I've said is a 2 custom manual which is ordered by customer for a 3 specific truck 4 Q. BY MR JONES And would be sold to the 5 customer 6 A. That's correct 7 Q. They paid for this 8 A. Yes sir Q. And this manual is smaller because it fits in 10 glove box right 11 A. It's smaller because it's a different manual 12 It's an op -- let me explain because you don't -- I'm 13 not for sure we're getting this 14 That's an operators manual -- 15 Q. We're getting it 16 Go ahead 17 A. -- and then there's a maintenance manual 18 So that manual is smaller That's 19 specifically written for the operator of the truck 20 There is a maintenance manual which is 21 specifically written for servicing the truck Kenworth 22 used to call their operators manuals Operators and 23 Maintenance Manuals because there is -- regular 24 maintenance intervals are spelled out in that manual 25 Q. Sir -- Asbestos Reporters GPS affiliate 214-347-4781 Paccar Inc. PMQ Rodney Curbo September 26 2023 247 1 A. At -- the purpose of that -- that's -- we're 2 talking two -- I want to make sure when you're saying 3 there's two different manuals that we're talking about 4 Q. Sir the reason this manual is the size it is 5 is so it can fit in a glove box right 6 A. I don't know why it's the size that it is 7 Q. But it is like half the size of the big one 8 that's ordered by the dealership -- MR IRVIN Argumentative 10 Q. BY MR JONES -- right 11 A. It's smaller 12 MR IRVIN And -- 13 Q. BY MR JONES Okay Can you go to the 14 back -- well so this exhibit 31 actually lists out the 15 different manuals that a customer can get with their 16 truck true 17 A. I don't know 18 Q. And it does not mention a maintenance manual 19 that comes for free in the truck true 20 A. I don't know 21 Q. Let me show you exhibit 31 again 22 Can you go to the back page On the left 23 is a section and it says Parts Catalogs true 24 A. Yes 25 Q. It lists an Operators Part Catalog and an Asbestos Reporters GPS affiliate 214-347-4781 Paccar Inc. PMQ Rodney Curbo September 26 2023 248 1 Illustrated Parts Catalog true 2 A. It does 3 Q. These are both catalogs that have to be 4 purchased from Kenworth true 5 A. I believe so 6 Q. It says These catalogs are custom for 7 the specific components in your Kenworth truck Order 8 these catalogs from your Kenworth dealer Please provide your chassis serial number when ordering There 10 is a nominal charge for these catalogs Allow 11 approximately four weeks for delivery 12 Did I read that correctly 13 A. Yes you did 14 Q. And then on the right are shop manuals right 15 A. Yes 16 17 true You've referred to the custom shop manual 18 A. Yes 19 Q. This is the custom shop manual on the top 20 right true 21 A. Yes 22 Q. And at the top it says Order a shop manual 23 True 24 A. Yes 25 Q. Under Custom Shop Manual it says This manual Asbestos Reporters GPS affiliate 214-347-4781 Paccar Inc. PMQ Rodney Curbo September 26 2023 249 1 contains detailed service procedures specifically 2 compiled for the components on your specific truck 3 includes Kenworth Electrical System Troubleshooting 4 Manual 5 Did I read that correctly 6 A. No. 7 Q. What did I get wrong 8 A. Reading Detailed service procedures specially compiled for your -- for the components 10 Q. Right 11 A. Not specifically 12 Q. Thank you 13 And then the next paragraph says The 14 information contained in this manual is the same used by 15 Kenworth dealers and includes maintenance disassembly 16 assembly repair overhaul and troubleshooting 17 procedures 18 Did I read that correctly 19 A. Yes 20 Q. This custom shop manual with detailed service 21 procedures specially compiled for the components on a 22 specific Kenworth truck was sold by Kenworth to 23 customers true 24 A. That's my understanding 25 Q. Do you have a single piece of paper that says Asbestos Reporters GPS affiliate 214-347-4781 Paccar Inc. PMQ Rodney Curbo September 26 2023 250 1 that was provided for free with the trucks 2 MR IRVIN Asked and answered 3 argumentative 4 A. That particular maintenance manual would not 5 have been provided for free with the trucks 6 THE VIDEOGRAPHER Mr. Jones could I have 7 you lower your mike just a little bit 8 Sorry about that MR IRVIN He's getting louder as the day 10 goes on 11 MR JONES I told you I would 12 Q. BY MR JONES When did you start telling 13 people that asbestos warning went in glove boxes or 14 sleeper compartments 15 MR IRVIN Argumentative 16 A. I don't recall 17 Q. BY MR JONES It wasn't in the beginning 18 though right 19 A. I don't believe so 20 Q. Now one thing you had mentioned before was 21 that questions about warnings for asbestos components 22 should be asked of the suppliers of PACCAR not of 23 PACCAR right 24 A. I believe that's what we say 25 Q. Why do you say that Asbestos Reporters GPS affiliate 214-347-4781 Paccar Inc. PMQ Rodney Curbo September 26 2023 251 1 A. Because the component suppliers are the -- have 2 expertise with their particular parts or components that 3 they manufacture 4 Q. Does PACCAR understand that it has an 5 independent duty to warn about asbestos hazards even if 6 suppliers don't warn 7 MR IRVIN No. This is -- is calls for a 8 legal conclusion It -- don't answer this one because it 10 calls for a legal conclusion 11 Don't ask him legal questions 12 MR JONES What does that mean 13 MR IRVIN Inaudible -- you're asking 14 him what the legal duty is 15 MR JONES Yeah 16 MR IRVIN He's not here to speak about 17 that It's not in your notice We would have put up a 18 lawyer if you wanted to ask about legal -- 19 MR JONES I believe it says 20 Information provided in interrogatories 21 And he read that information from an 22 interrogatory It's in every interrogatory response in 23 this case 24 MR IRVIN It doesn't say anything about 25 what is your legal duty Asbestos Reporters GPS affiliate 214-347-4781 Paccar Inc. PMQ Rodney Curbo September 26 2023 252 1 MR JONES Sure Okay 2 MR IRVIN Yeah 3 Q. BY MR JONES Did PACCAR ever understand that 4 it was required to warn about hazards even if it didn't 5 manufacture the product 6 MR IRVIN This misstates -- it misstates 7 the law misstates the evidence assumes facts 8 MR JONES What law does it misstate California civil law It doesn't misstate that 10 MR IRVIN No. You've had several 11 assumptions in it 12 You can ask your question 13 MR JONES All right I'm going to limit 14 mine to California civil law 15 MR IRVIN No. About hazards about 16 warnings about who should have -- 17 MR JONES Sure 18 MR IRVIN -- warned There's 19 a -- unpack all that issue 20 Q. BY MR JONES Do you have the question in 21 mind 22 A. No. 23 Q. Does PACCAR understand that it was required to 24 include warnings about asbestos even if it didn't 25 manufacture the product Asbestos Reporters GPS affiliate 214-347-4781 Paccar Inc. PMQ Rodney Curbo September 26 2023 253 1 MR IRVIN Same objections Also calls 2 for a legal conclusion 3 If you know sir 4 A. I don't know what they specifically understood 5 at the time legally 6 What I do know is that starting in 1976 7 Mr. Bissonnette explains in a memo that -- I believe it 8 was one of the Washington OSHA folks mentioned to him that asbestos might be an issue within our plants 10 And beginning in 1976 up through about I 11 think ten or 12 years Mr. Bissonnette did 12 sampling And not only did he find that there was 13 no health hazard associated with asbestos he found no 14 asbestos in any of his -- any of the testing that he had 15 done 16 Q. BY MR JONES Did he test for asbestos 17 exposures when brakes were -- when compressed air was 18 used to remove dust from brake drums and brake 19 assemblies 20 A. I don't know 21 Q. Did he do a test to determine asbestos 22 exposures when new brakes were ground or sanded to go 23 back into a truck 24 A. I don't know 25 Q. Did he do a test to determine if there were Asbestos Reporters GPS affiliate 214-347-4781 Paccar Inc. PMQ Rodney Curbo September 26 2023 254 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 10 11 asbestos exposures when brakes were relined A. What I -- what we know is -- and it's limited granted but it is -- the information we have is limited He did do a test of the mechanics doing brake work Q. Did he do a test to determine asbestos exposures when new brakes were being -- when brakes were being relined A. No I don't know exactly what the mechanics were doing when they were doing the brake work that -- where he did 12 Q. You don't know what he tested 13 MR IRVIN No. Misstates testimony 14 A. Well we can look and see what he said -- what 15 was said that he tested 16 Q. BY MR JONES Okay And back to my question 17 So are you saying that PACCAR didn't have 18 to warn because there wasn't a hazard 19 MR IRVIN Objecting for all the reasons 20 I did the prior legal conclusion questions And also 21 under ref kind 22 A. What I'm saying is we found that there was no 23 hazard found that there was -- actually they -- what 24 Mr. Bissonnette found was that there was no asbestos 25 beyond what was ubiquitous what's in the air anyway Asbestos Reporters GPS affiliate 214-347-4781 Paccar Inc. PMQ Rodney Curbo September 26 2023 255 1 Q. BY MR JONES So what you're saying is PACCAR 2 didn't need to warn because there was no hazard from the 3 asbestos components in the Kenworth and Peterbilt 4 trucks true 5 A. I'm saying what we found was no asbestos 6 Q. Is that why you didn't warn 7 A. I don't know exactly the reason why they didn't 8 warn Q. Did they believe that legally they didn't have 10 to 11 A. I don't know 12 Q. Did they believe that they weren't required to 13 by state or federal law 14 A. I don't know 15 Q. Did they do any investigation to determine what 16 PACCAR's responsibility is to warn for products 17 manufactured by other people but included in Kenworth 18 or Peterbilt trucks 19 MR IRVIN Same objections Also 20 argumentative 21 A. I'm sorry Can you -- 22 MR IRVIN Misstates testimony 23 A. - ask the question or read it I'm fine 24 with that 25 THE REPORTER I didn't hear your answer Asbestos Reporters GPS affiliate 214-347-4781 Paccar Inc. PMQ Rodney Curbo September 26 2023 256 1 at the beginning 2 MR JONES He didn't -- 3 4 5 6 7 8 10 11 12 MR IRVIN He didn't answer ahead MR JONES Oh You mean the -- go What's your question MR IRVIN She wants -- he asked you to reread the last question THE REPORTER Okay MR JONES Are you saying you didn't get an answer to the -- that question THE REPORTER Yes 13 MR JONES He didn't answer it He asked 14 me to reread it 15 THE REPORTER Okay Thank you 16 MR JONES And I'm going to politely to 17 ask you to pretty rewrite it -- read it 18 And forgive me for that bad joke I did 19 about the exhibit number 20 MR IRVIN You said I'll pass the 21 witness right 22 THE VIDEOGRAPHER Mr. Irving can I have 23 you move your microphone just a little closer 24 MR IRVIN Yeah I'm sorry I don't 25 need to be on -- mike up right now But yeah Asbestos Reporters GPS affiliate 214-347-4781 Paccar Inc. PMQ Rodney Curbo September 26 2023 257 1 THE REPORTER Okay One moment 2 Requested portion read 3 A. I don't know 4 Q. BY MR JONES You agree that PACCAR 5 distributed trucks that included asbestos brakes 6 MR IRVIN Asked and answered 7 A. We've said that before 8 Q. BY MR JONES You agree that PACCAR distributed trucks that included asbestos clutches 10 MR IRVIN Asked and answered 11 A. Some trucks yes 12 Q. BY MR JONES For the brakes you agree that 13 PACCAR distributed Kenworth trucks that included 14 Rockwell axles true 15 A. Yes 16 Q. And PACCAR also sold Kenworth trucks that 17 included Rockwell axles true 18 A. Yes 19 Q. PACCAR distributed and sold Kenworth 20 trucks that included Rockwell brakes with asbestos 21 linings true 22 A. Yes 23 MR IRVIN Vague as to time overbroad 24 Q. BY MR JONES Kenworth distributed 25 and -- pardon me Asbestos Reporters GPS affiliate 214-347-4781 Paccar Inc. PMQ Rodney Curbo September 26 2023 258 1 PACCAR distributed and sold Kenworth 2 trucks that included Abex asbestos brake linings true 3 MR IRVIN Same objections 4 A. At certain times 5 Q. BY MR JONES PACCAR distributed and sold 6 Kenworth trucks that included asbestos clutches 7 from Spicer 8 MR IRVIN Same objections Overbroad as to time 10 A. At certain time frames yes 11 Q. BY MR JONES And Kenworth distributed and 12 sold -- pardon me 13 PACCAR distributed and sold Kenworth 14 trucks that included engines from Cummins that had 15 asbestos gaskets in them 16 MR IRVIN Same objections 17 A. I don't know specifically We -- I believe so 18 Q. BY MR JONES For -- you did some 19 investigation into Kenworth sale of trucks to Kraft 20 Foods true 21 A. Yes 22 Q. Your investigation confirmed that those trucks 23 included Rockwell brakes true 24 A. Yes 25 Q. Those trucks -- Asbestos Reporters GPS affiliate 214-347-4781 Paccar Inc. PMQ Rodney Curbo September 26 2023 259 1 2 Excuse me MR BARONIAN I'm going to -- hold on 3 I'm going to object Lacks foundation 4 speculation 5 Q. BY MR JONES Those trucks - 6 MR BARONIAN Okay Go ahead 7 Q. BY MR JONES Those brakes from Rockwell 8 included Abex asbestos linings true A. I don't know 10 Q. Okay They were 551C 11 A. Sorry Yes some of them did Yeah 12 Q. Okay 13 A. Sorry 14 Q. Those Kenworth trucks sold to Kraft included 15 clutches from Spicer 16 A. Yes 17 Q. Before 1982 those would have been asbestos 18 true 19 A. I didn't look at the billed dates to determine 20 if it was -- some of them had -- were asbestos Some of 21 them were ceramic 22 Q. And they were from Spicer 23 A. Yes 24 Q. Okay And the engines on the trucks sold to 25 Kraft were supplied by Cummins true Asbestos Reporters GPS affiliate 214-347-4781 Paccar Inc. PMQ Rodney Curbo September 26 2023 260 1 A. Yes 2 Q. Okay 3 MR JONES Let's go off the record 4 THE VIDEOGRAPHER The time is 12:41 p.m. 5 We are now off the record 6 Break was from 12:41 p.m. to 1:54 p.m. 7 THE VIDEOGRAPHER The time is 1:54 p.m. 8 We are now back on the record Counsel you may proceed 10 Q. BY MR JONES Good afternoon Are you ready 11 to continue with your deposition 12 A. Yes I am 13 Q. PACCAR began a transition from asbestos brake 14 linings to nonasbestos brake linings in the late 70s or 15 1980s true 16 A. Yes 17 Q. Do you have any evidence that PACCAR ever sold 18 a truck that included nonasbestos brake linings before 19 1979 20 A. We have a document where we talk about -- where 21 we talk about selling nonasbestos brakes on trucks in 22 1984 which is -- I was chuckling because it -- I think 23 one of the Abex documents said 1981 but I'm not for 24 sure that's accurate 25 Q. Well Abex said in 1981 We have nonasbestos Asbestos Reporters GPS affiliate 214-347-4781 Paccar Inc. PMQ Rodney Curbo September 26 2023 261 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 10 brakes available to sell to PACCAR true MR IRVIN Misstates the document A. My recollection of the document is it said that they had sold -- or I think it said that we sold that PACCAR sold -- Q. BY MR JONES Which -- A. -- nonasbestos products Q. Which document are you referring to A. I don't recall I -- you know if it was -- MR IRVIN It was an Abex exhibit 11 A. -- I've barely seen those documents but that 12 was one of the things that jumped out to me was the -- 13 MR IRVIN That's what he's talking 14 about 15 A. -- was the 1981 date 16 MR IRVIN But I think you guys are 17 crossing wires so you might back up a step 18 MR JONES Yeah 19 Q. BY MR JONES What document do you have in 20 PACCAR's files that indicates that PACCAR sold a truck 21 that included nonasbestos brake linings before 1980 22 A. Gotcha Sorry 23 Reporter clarification 24 MR IRVIN 1980 25 MR JONES 1980 1-9-8-0 Asbestos Reporters GPS affiliate 214-347-4781 Paccar Inc. PMQ Rodney Curbo September 26 2023 262 1 A. Before 1980 2 Q. BY MR JONES Correct 3 A. I -- we don't We say 1984 is when we first 4 sold nonasbestos brakes 5 Q. Okay Do you have any evidence that any truck 6 Kenworth or Peterbilt ever sold before 1984 included 7 nonasbestos brakes as original equipment 8 A. Nothing in particular Q. Okay 10 THE VIDEOGRAPHER And I apologize for the 11 interruption but if we're done with that exhibit do 12 you believe we could move it over 13 MR JONES Oh The binder 14 THE VIDEOGRAPHER Yes sir Yes 15 It's not an exhibit binder 16 Q. BY MR JONES When is the first time that 17 PACCAR had a nonasbestos brake that could be used as a 18 replacement for a truck originally equipped with 19 asbestos brakes 20 A. I believe that would be 1984 21 Q. Do you have Exhibit 24 in front of you 22 A. I do 23 Q. Exhibit 24 is the Second Supplemental Responses 24 to Requests for Production in this case true 25 A. Yes Asbestos Reporters GPS affiliate 214-347-4781 Paccar Inc. PMQ Rodney Curbo September 26 2023 263 1 Q. Can you go to page 50 of that document And 2 it's Request Number 26 3 A. Okay 4 Q. PACCAR has asked for All writings related to 5 asbestos brakes on the market before 1990 that 6 could be used as replacement parts for your trucks that 7 included asbestos brakes as original equipment 8 Did I read that correctly A. Yes 10 Q. Okay And then these are again the discovery 11 responses that you verified as being true and correct 12 A. I believe so 13 Q. Let me show you what I'll mark as Exhibit 36 14 which I believe is every document identified in response 15 to that request 16 THE REPORTER I -- you may have skipped 17 one See that row up there by your red book 18 MR JONES Oh no We're going to change 19 that 20 MR IRVIN Exhibit 107 21 Q. BY MR JONES Exhibit 114A 22 Let me show you what I'll mark as 23 Exhibit 32 24 MR JONES We're going to put this one on 25 Brent I saw him get a hamburger at lunch I think it Asbestos Reporters GPS affiliate 214-347-4781 Paccar Inc. PMQ Rodney Curbo September 26 2023 264 1 might be weighing him down a little bit you know 2 Exhibit 32 marked 3 Q. BY MR JONES I'm going to show you what I've 4 marked as Exhibit 32 and represent to you that that's 5 all of the documents identified in PACCAR's Second Set 6 of Supplemental Responses to Request for Production 7 No. 26 8 And I'll just ask you to confirm that that's true 10 11 numbers MR JONES He's going to need the Bates 12 MR IRVIN Yes I understand 13 I'm just trying to verify -- 14 MR JONES Oh 15 MR IRVIN -- that the amended were the 16 same Yes All right 17 A. I believe it is 18 Q. BY MR JONES Okay Can you tell me which 19 one of these documents indicates that PACCAR has a 20 nonasbestos brake that can be used as a replacement for 21 a truck originally equipped with asbestos brakes 22 A. Well I believe PACCAR 560. It states that the 23 only -- it's dated January of 1984 24 Reading The following is a list of 25 brake linings currently used on Peterbilt cam brake Asbestos Reporters GPS affiliate 214-347-4781 Paccar Inc. PMQ Rodney Curbo September 26 2023 265 1 assemblies 2 And it lists for one of the friction 3 ratings FF nonasbestos 931-162 Abex lining 4 Q. Okay Does this say that that Abex nonasbestos 5 lining can be used to replace a brake in a vehicle where 6 the original equipment was an asbestos brake 7 A. This document doesn't say that 8 Q. And it actually says that you could only use the nonasbestos brake with quote engineering approval 10 end quote True 11 A. At that time frame that's true 12 Q. And it also indicates that there's some design 13 differences if the nonasbestos brake is going to be used 14 as it relates to parking brakes true 15 A. Yes 16 Q. It says that for the nonasbestos lining 17 parking brakes are required on two axles true 18 A. That's correct 19 Q. Were trucks at what time normally supplied with 20 parking brakes on two axles 21 A. It was an option 22 Q. Okay 23 A. You chose how many park brake or -- yeah how 24 many park brakes you wanted 25 Q. So if you had the nonasbestos brake you had to Asbestos Reporters GPS affiliate 214-347-4781 Paccar Inc. PMQ Rodney Curbo September 26 2023 266 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 have a vehicle with two emergency brakes one with -- strike -- I'm going to try again If you used the nonasbestos brake then the vehicle had to have parking brakes on two axles true A. In nine -- on January of ninety -- 1984 Q. True A. That's correct in January of 1984 Q. Okay And you could only use the nonasbestos brakes with engineering approval true A. In January of 1984 Q. Okay Where is the next document that indicates -- well so this doesn't say anything about using the nonasbestos brake as a replacement in a truck originally supplied with asbestos brakes true A. I mean I'm not for sure I understood your question that way this question The way we under -- I understood that question is if I have a truck today that's built with asbestos brakes when did I start building that same spec of truck with asbestos -- or with nonasbestos brakes 23 Q. Well what I'm talking about -- so we know in 24 the Carpenter case that the trucks supplied to Kraft 25 in -- I think the time frame is like 1974 to 1978 or Asbestos Reporters GPS affiliate 214-347-4781 Paccar Inc. PMQ Rodney Curbo September 26 2023 267 1 '79 something like that 2 A. I think so 3 Q. During that time frame the trucks supplied 4 included Rockwell brakes with Abex 551C brake linings 5 true 6 A. At least on -- 7 MR FLYNN Objection lacks foundation 8 calls for speculation Assumes facts Q. BY MR JONES All of them that indicate a 10 lining indicate that it's 551C 11 A. Correct I believe that -- 12 MR FLYNN Same objections 13 A. -- the only ones that indicated it were on the 14 front brakes if my memory is correct 15 It's the information we have The others 16 we don't have the information 17 Q. BY MR JONES But they're manufactured in the 18 1970s and you don't have any evidence that there was a 19 nonasbestos brake available for these trucks before 20 1984 right 21 A. I don't have the lining information so I have 22 no evidence one way or the other at this point 23 Q. Well the evidence you have is you're not aware 24 of PACCAR selling any trucking with nonasbestos lining 25 before 1984 true Asbestos Reporters GPS affiliate 214-347-4781 Paccar Inc. PMQ Rodney Curbo September 26 2023 268 1 A. That's true 2 Q. Okay So -- 3 A. To the best of my knowledge 4 Q. The request is pretty specific though isn't 5 it Asbestos brakes on the market before 1990 that 6 could be used as replacement parts for your trucks that 7 included asbestos brakes as original equipment 8 MR IRVIN Overbroad Q. BY MR JONES Do you understand that 10 A. Well as I understood the question -- and I 11 think it's up for interpretation 12 Now that I understand what you're asking 13 my interpretation of the question was I got this truck 14 I'm building today with asbestos brakes When did we 15 start building that same truck that same specification 16 with nonasbestos That's the way we answered the 17 question 18 Q. All right Then let's ask the question the way 19 it -- let's answer the question the way it's written 20 For a truck like the truck sold to Kraft 21 that included asbestos brakes in the 1970s when was 22 there a nonasbestos brake on the market that could be 23 used to replace the asbestos brakes 24 MR IRVIN Argumentative misstates the 25 question Asbestos Reporters GPS affiliate 214-347-4781 Paccar Inc. PMQ Rodney Curbo September 26 2023 269 1 A. Well I believe -- as I understand that 2 question now I believe -- and this is off the top of my 3 head -- it would have been when we wrote the -- or when 4 the EPC implemented for these changes There were 5 multiple EPCs We found some of them It's the project 6 that made the change That's the communication that 7 says this part's replaced by another part And I 8 believe the earliest one of those is '87 that we've found copies of 10 Q. BY MR JONES So on -- to PACCAR's knowledge 11 there are no nonasbestos replacement brakes on the 12 market to use in a truck that was originally equipped 13 with asbestos brakes until 1987 14 A. What I would say is I don't necessarily agree 15 with -- 16 MR FLYNN Objection -- objection lack 17 of foundation calls for speculation vague ambiguous 18 and overbroad 19 A. I don't necessarily agree with the way you 20 reworded my response 21 But what I said is at least by 1987 we 22 know that there was a project that implemented -- that 23 communicated that 24 Was there something prior to that Again 25 this is off the top of my head My recollection is that Asbestos Reporters GPS affiliate 214-347-4781 Paccar Inc. PMQ Rodney Curbo September 26 2023 270 1 would be the first thing that I believe we have 2 documentation on Was there something prior to that H 3 don't know I don't recall But -- 4 Q. BY MR JONES And I'm -- 5 A. -- at least by 1987 6 Q. I'm not rewording what you're saying I'm 7 asking my question 8 So my question is Are you aware of any evidence that there were nonasbestos brakes on the 10 market before 1987 that could be used to replace brakes 11 in a truck originally equipped with asbestos brakes 12 MR FLYNN Objection lack of foundation 13 calls for speculation vague ambiguous overbroad 14 A. What I would say is we know we were building 15 trucks in 1984 that had nonasbestos brakes so those 16 brakes were available 17 Whether or not -- I don't have any 18 documentation that says one way or the other whether or 19 not those particular brakes could replace some other 20 preexisting asbestos brakes I don't know 21 Q. BY MR JONES Do you have any evidence 22 indicating that before 1990 -- well strike that 23 Do you have any evidence that before 1987 24 there was a nonasbestos brake on the market that could 25 be used to replace a brake in a truck originally Asbestos Reporters GPS affiliate 214-347-4781 Paccar Inc. PMQ Rodney Curbo September 26 2023 271 1 equipped with asbestos brakes 2 When I say in a truck a PACCAR truck 3 Kenworth or Peterbilt 4 MR FLYNN Objection lack of foundation 5 calls for speculation assumes facts 6 A. What we know is that nonasbestos brakes 7 existed -- brake shoes existed prior to 1987 8 I do not have anything specifically that states this particular nonasbestos brake can replace 10 that -- a given asbestos brake out in the field I 11 don't know 12 I just know that nonasbestos brakes 13 existed prior to 1987 14 Q. We know definitely in 1983 that the nonasbestos 15 brakes couldn't be used as a replacement for a PACCAR 16 truck originally equipped with asbestos brakes true 17 MR FLYNN Objection lack of foundation 18 calls for speculation assumes facts 19 A. We don't have anything that spec -- that I'm 20 aware of that specifically says that a nonasbestos brake 21 could replace a -- an asbestos brake in service prior 22 to -- I think it was prior to 1984 as you stated 23 Q. BY MR JONES Let me show you what I'll mark 24 as Exhibit 33 to the deposition 25 Exhibit 33 marked Asbestos Reporters GPS affiliate 214-347-4781 Paccar Inc. PMQ Rodney Curbo September 26 2023 272 1 MR IRVIN Could you identify the Bates 2 number Counsel 3 MR JONES 36 -- and there's a signature 4 on top of it 36 -- oh 362 362 5 MR IRVIN Thank you 6 Q. BY MR JONES What is Exhibit 33 7 A. Appears to be notes I believe -- given that 8 this -- the initials I believe it's notes from Gary Loggins which is a Peterbilt engineer 10 Q. Exhibit 33 is a true and correct copy of a 11 document found in PACCAR's files 12 A. I believe so 13 Q. And it's dated 11/16/82 1982 14 A. I believe so 15 Q. And this was -- these are the handwritten notes 16 of a Peterbilt engineer true 17 A. Yes 18 Q. And this engineer was working on the project to 19 transition from asbestos to nonasbestos brakes true 20 A. That's correct 21 Q. This Peterbilt engineer goes through the 22 advantages and disadvantages of using nonasbestos 23 brakes true 24 A. Yes 25 Q. Under the disadvantage the first disadvantage Asbestos Reporters GPS affiliate 214-347-4781 Paccar Inc. PMQ Rodney Curbo September 26 2023 273 1 is that the nonasbestos brakes will cost more and his 2 estimate is around 25 percent more 3 A. That's correct 4 Q. And then there's several engineering problems 5 presented by the nonasbestos brakes true 6 A. Yes 7 Q. Changes in the design of the truck might be 8 required to move to nonasbestos brakes true A. May 10 Q. Yeah I said might 11 What I said is correct 12 A. That is correct They may be 13 Q. And the conclusion is None of the nonasbestos 14 linings meet the requirements for truck or tractors 15 using our standard design practice 16 Did I read that correctly 17 A. You did 18 Q. Let me show you what I'll mark as Exhibit 34 19 Exhibit 34 marked 20 MR FLYNN Can you identify the Bates 21 label -- 22 MR JONES Yes 23 MR FLYNN -- of the document 24 25 read it MR JONES No. It's too tiny I can't Asbestos Reporters GPS affiliate 214-347-4781 Paccar Inc. PMQ Rodney Curbo September 26 2023 274 1 The witness is checking for the document 2 in his binder 3 MR IRVIN What's the date of the 4 document Trey 5 THE WITNESS '83 September 183 6 MR JONES September 1 1983 7 Let's go off the record 8 MR IRVIN Yeah That's a good point THE VIDEOGRAPHER The time is 2:18 p.m. 10 We are now off the record 11 Break was from 2:18 p.m. to 2:25 p.m. 12 THE VIDEOGRAPHER The time is 2:25 p.m. 13 We are now back on the record 14 Counsel you may proceed 15 Q. BY MR JONES Exhibit 34 is a true and correct 16 copy of a document found in PACCAR's files true 17 A. It appears to be 18 Q. It is authored by a PACCAR employee true 19 A. Yes 20 Q. Who authored this document 21 A. It was R. Melder from PACCAR Technical Center 22 Q. And he is discussing a meeting with a Peterbilt 23 and a Kenworth representative and then several people 24 from the PACCAR Technical Center true 25 A. That's what it appears Asbestos Reporters GPS affiliate 214-347-4781 Paccar Inc. PMQ Rodney Curbo September 26 2023 275 1 Q. Before this project typically speaking 2 Kenworth designed approved whatever their own trucks 3 and Peterbilt did the same on the Peterbilt side True 4 A. For the most part 5 Q. And when it came to brakes Kenworth is the one 6 that did all the approvals and engineering work and all 7 that stuff for Kenworth trucks and Peterbilt did the 8 same for Peterbilt trucks A. For the most part yes 10 Q. When this project happened in the late 70s 11 early 80s they combined the efforts of the PACCAR 12 Technical Center Kenworth and Peterbilt to find 13 nonasbestos replacements for asbestos brakes in Kenworth 14 and Peterbilt trucks true 15 A. Yes 16 Q. And this is a memo that's discussing those 17 efforts true 18 A. It's one of the meetings that they had 19 regarding that project 20 Q. And as of September 1 1983 Kenworth needed 21 testing of nonasbestos brake lining to offer as an 22 option to their standard lining of 551C Abex and 23 MMD39 Carlisle used in their Rockwell foundation brakes 24 true 25 A. That's what the document says Asbestos Reporters GPS affiliate 214-347-4781 Paccar Inc. PMQ Rodney Curbo September 26 2023 276 1 Q. And 551C Abex and MMD39 Carlisle were both 2 asbestos brake linings true 3 A. I believe so 4 Q. Let me show you what I'll mark as Exhibit -- 5 MR IRVIN 35 6 Q. BY MR JONES -- 35 7 Exhibit 35 marked 8 MR JONES Oh And I can't see the Bates number on this one either 10 MR IRVIN Yeah It's right where the 11 blacked part of the memo is 12 See if I can find it I believe it's 382 13 Q. BY MR JONES What is Exhibit 36 14 THE WITNESS Actually it's 383 15 MR IRVIN Oh sorry 16 A. Appears that it's a memo to Virgil -- 17 Q. BY MR JONES 35 I'm sorry I misspoke 18 A. Oh 35 19 Q. This is Exhibit 35 20 What is Exhibit 35 21 A. Memo from Dave Deacon to Virgil Pound regarding 22 Project 81021 which was entitled Test Nonasbestos 23 Brake Linings It's the completion notice for that 24 project 25 Q. And who's Dave Deacon Asbestos Reporters GPS affiliate 214-347-4781 Paccar Inc. PMQ Rodney Curbo September 26 2023 277 1 A. Dave Deacon was an engineer for Peterbilt H 2 believe he was engineering manager at that point in 3 time 4 Q. And who's Virgil Pound 5 A. I believe that's when Virgil was chief engineer 6 for Peterbilt 7 Q. So this is a discussion between management and 8 the Engineering Department of Peterbilt A. It's a -- it's notification that this project 10 has been completed 11 Q. Okay And the project was to test nonasbestos 12 brake linings true 13 A. That's correct 14 Q. And once they were done testing they realized 15 that the nonasbestos brake linings couldn't be used in a 16 truck originally equipped with asbestos linings true 17 A. In 1983 that's what they had determined 18 Q. So on July 25 1983 they determined that 19 reading Based on testing at the PACCAR Technical 20 Center it was determined that nonasbestos linings are 21 not a direct substitution for current production A new 22 project will deal with evaluating production 23 nonasbestos linings and what design changes are 24 required True 25 A. That's what it says Asbestos Reporters GPS affiliate 214-347-4781 Paccar Inc. PMQ Rodney Curbo September 26 2023 278 1 It also says that Nonasbestos brake 2 linings are being offered both for original equipment 3 and market use 4 Q. It doesn't say they're being offered on PACCAR 5 trucks does it 6 A. It doesn't specifically say that 7 But I don't think they'd be talking about 8 other people's trucks Q. Well they knew in 1982 a year before -- the 10 year before this that Mack Trucks was already standard 11 nonasbestos right 12 A. Yes they did 13 Q. They knew in the early 1980s that -- I think 14 Abex Carlisle and Raymark had said that there were 15 nonasbestos linings available True 16 A. Yes 17 Q. You couldn't use them on Kenworth or Peterbilt 18 trucks until PACCAR tested those to make sure they could 19 be safely used right 20 A. That's correct 21 Q. You don't just slap whatever lining you want on 22 a heavy truck and then have it roll down the 101 in 23 Los Angeles right 24 A. That's correct 25 Q. You got to make sure that whatever brakes you Asbestos Reporters GPS affiliate 214-347-4781 Paccar Inc. PMQ Rodney Curbo September 26 2023 279 1 put on there are going to work as the truck was 2 designed true 3 A. That's correct 4 Q. And as of 1983 what the PAC -- the Peterbilt 5 engineers say is that they can't -- you can't just swap 6 out the nonasbestos for the asbestos brakes true 7 A. Right 8 And it said A new project will deal with evaluating production asbestos linings and what 10 design changes are required 11 Q. Why was Mack Truck so far ahead of Peterbilt 12 and Kenworth in releasing nonasbestos brakes as standard 13 on their trucks 14 MR IRVIN That misstates the documents 15 It's argumentative And it's -- misstates evidence and 16 calls for speculation 17 A. All I can do is speculate 18 Q. BY MR JONES You agree the Mack Trucks were 19 standard nonasbestos before Peterbilt and Kenworth 20 true 21 MR IRVIN Calls for speculation 22 Misstates the document 23 A. I believe we have a document that states that 24 Mack was standard with non -- had gone standard with 25 nonasbestos Asbestos Reporters GPS affiliate 214-347-4781 Paccar Inc. PMQ Rodney Curbo September 26 2023 280 1 Q. BY MR JONES Let me show you what I'll mark 2 as Exhibit 36 3 Exhibit 36 marked 4 Q. BY MR JONES Oh Exhibit 35 that's a true 5 and correct copy of a document from PACCAR's files 6 A. It appears to be 7 Q. Okay Authored by a PACCAR employee 8 A. Yes Q. Exhibit 36 this is 367. I can read this one 10 Hallelujah 11 What is Exhibit 36 12 A. Appears to be a handwritten note from Dave 13 Deacon to Rich It says Reference Nonasbestos 14 linings 15 Q. And who is Mr. Deacon 16 A. Again Dave Deacon I believe at the time was 17 engineering manager at Peterbilt 18 Q. And Rich 19 A. I'm not for sure exactly who that is 20 Q. And Mr. Deacon reports that -- first that 21 Eaton and Rockwell can and will offer nonasbestos 22 brakes true 23 A. Yes 24 Q. That Carlisle Abex and Raybestos are the 25 leading OEM suppliers of both asbestos and nonasbestos Asbestos Reporters GPS affiliate 214-347-4781 Paccar Inc. PMQ Rodney Curbo September 26 2023 281 1 brake linings true 2 A. That's what he says 3 Q. He reports that There is no current 4 government regulation that specifically requires 5 nonasbestos brake linings True 6 A. Correct 7 Q. And he reports that Mack is the only 8 manufacturer which has gone standard on nonasbestos True 10 A. Yes 11 Q. So at this time what had to happen was PACCAR 12 had to test and approve the nonasbestos linings for use 13 on Kenworth and Peterbilt trucks true 14 A. Yes 15 Q. And it had to do that in conjunction with the 16 brake assembly manufacturers Eaton and Rockwell 17 A. Yes 18 Q. And it had to do that in conjunction with the 19 brake lining manufacturers Abex and Carlisle true 20 A. Yes 21 Q. All of those entities had to work together to 22 come up with a nonasbestos brake lining to use on 23 Kenworth and Peterbilt trucks true 24 A. That's correct 25 Q. Now PACCAR's discovery responses discuss the Asbestos Reporters GPS affiliate 214-347-4781 Paccar Inc. PMQ Rodney Curbo September 26 2023 282 1 trucks being custom that the customer had the ability 2 to select different things within the truck the 3 different axle or engine transmission things like 4 that Right 5 A. Yes 6 Q. PACCAR has to confirm that all of those things 7 will work together true 8 A. That's correct Q. PACCAR -- no matter what the customer wants if 10 PACCAR can't build that truck safely so that it meets 11 all the federal requirements PACCAR can't sell that 12 truck True 13 A. That's correct 14 Q. So the customers have to order things that are 15 within the range of equipment that could safely operate 16 on a truck sold by Kenworth or Peterbilt true 17 A. That's correct 18 Q. Once an order for a Peterbilt or Kenworth goes 19 through it's reviewed to make sure all of those 20 components work together true 21 A. Yes sir 22 Q. PACCAR has more expertise in integration and 23 the ultimate application of the components that go into 24 the truck true 25 A. That's correct Asbestos Reporters GPS affiliate 214-347-4781 Paccar Inc. PMQ Rodney Curbo September 26 2023 283 1 Q. So the brake lining manufacturer designs and 2 manufactures the lining right 3 A. Yes 4 Q. The brake assembly manufacturer designs the 5 brake assembly true 6 A. Correct 7 Q. 8 true The engine manufacturer designs the engine A. Correct 10 Q. The transmission manufacturer designs the 11 transmission true 12 A. Correct 13 Q. The clutch manufacturer designs and 14 manufactures the clutch true 15 A. That's correct 16 Q. And PACCAR's expertise is taking all of those 17 different components and putting them into a truck 18 true 19 A. That's correct 20 Q. Historically speaking even before this 21 transition to nonasbestos brakes the brake assembly 22 manufacturers the brake lining manufacturers and 23 PACCAR have worked together to make sure that the brakes 24 work on trucks true 25 A. That's correct Asbestos Reporters GPS affiliate 214-347-4781 Paccar Inc. PMQ Rodney Curbo September 26 2023 284 1 Q. That's also true of the transmission and engine 2 manufacturers They've worked with PACCAR to make sure 3 that those engines or transmissions work safely in the 4 PACCAR trucks True 5 A. Yes 6 Q. So the component parts suppliers were involved 7 in the integration of their components into the Kenworth 8 or Peterbilt trucks true MR IRVIN Overbroad 10 A. Can you restate the -- or re -- 11 BY MR JONES Sure 12 The component part suppliers -- 13 A. Right 14 Q. -- so some of the ones we've talked about 15 are -- 16 A. Right 17 Q. -- Eaton or Rockwell Abex or Carlisle 18 Cummins Spicer 19 The component part suppliers have 20 historically worked with PACCAR to make sure that those 21 components would work safely in Kenworth and Peterbilt 22 trucks true 23 A. Right I would say we worked together 24 Q. From the beginning of time probably right 25 A. As far as back as I'm aware of Asbestos Reporters GPS affiliate 214-347-4781 Paccar Inc. PMQ Rodney Curbo September 26 2023 285 1 Q. Okay 2 MR JONES Let's go off the record 3 THE VIDEOGRAPHER The time is 2:41 p.m. 4 We are now off the record 5 Break was from 2:41 p.m. to 2:51 p.m. 6 THE VIDEOGRAPHER This is the beginning 7 of Media Unit Number 3. The time is 2:51 p.m. We are 8 now back on the record Counsel you may proceed 10 Exhibits 37 to 38 marked 11 MR JONES Plaintiffs and PACCAR have 12 stipulated that the documents included in Exhibit 37 are 13 true and correct copies of documents found in PACCAR's 14 files and were received by PACCAR 15 MR IRVIN That's correct 16 MR JONES And Plaintiffs and PACCAR have 17 stipulated that Exhibit 38 are true and correct copies 18 of documents found in PACCAR's files They are 19 authentic and they meet the business records hearsay 20 exception 21 MR IRVIN That's correct 22 Exhibits 39 and 40 marked 23 Q. BY MR JONES Okay Sir I had handed you 24 while we were off the record Exhibits 39 and 40 25 A. Correct Asbestos Reporters GPS affiliate 214-347-4781 Paccar Inc. PMQ Rodney Curbo September 26 2023 286 1 Q. Exhibits 39 and 40 are Kenworth documents 2 true 3 A. They appear to be 4 Q. These were not found in Kenworth's files true 5 A. That's correct 6 Q. But they're on Kenworth letterhead true 7 A. They appear to be 8 Q. Authored by Kenworth employees true A. Appears to be 10 Q. And these appear to be documents published by 11 Kenworth true 12 A. That's correct They appear to be 13 Q. Okay PACCAR sold asbestos brakes until they 14 didn't have any more asbestos brakes to sell true 15 MR IRVIN Well argumentative 16 overbroad vague as to time ambiguous 17 A. I don't know that that's a percent 18 true 19 Q. BY MR JONES 1988 is when several nonasbestos 20 linings were qualified for use on brakes for which 21 asbestos linings were still available true 22 A. I believe that's true 23 Q. And PACCAR's intention was to continue selling 24 the asbestos linings until they were quote depleted 25 true Asbestos Reporters GPS affiliate 214-347-4781 Paccar Inc. PMQ Rodney Curbo September 26 2023 287 1 MR IRVIN Vague ambiguous overbroad 2 A. I think there's a document that indicates 3 something like that for the -- I think it's the 551D 4 lining replacement if I recall correctly 5 Q. BY MR JONES Let me show you what I'll mark 6 as Exhibit 41 7 Exhibit 41 marked 8 Q. BY MR JONES Depleted means don't have them anymore right 10 A. Okay This document says -- the 1988 document 11 it does say that the as -- if you have no objections 12 So this is a -- this is not a 13 determination This is a recommendation from -- it 14 appears to be from Engineering to Marketing that says 15 If you have no objections the nonasbestos linings will 16 be standard and the asbestos linings will be optional 17 until the supplies of asbestos linings is depleted 18 I don't necessarily recall what the 19 decision was 20 Q. Depleted means don't have them anymore right 21 A. That was the recommendation 22 Q. Okay And Exhibit 41 is a true and correct 23 copy of a document found in PACCAR's files true 24 A. I believe it is 25 Q. It's dated December 30 of 1988 true Asbestos Reporters GPS affiliate 214-347-4781 Paccar Inc. PMQ Rodney Curbo September 26 2023 288 1 A. That's correct 2 Q. It's on letterhead that says Peterbilt 3 Division - Engineering true 4 A. That's correct 5 Q. It's authored by a Peterbilt employee true 6 A. Yes 7 Q. Who are the people that wrote the memo and that 8 received the memo A. As I said Geoffrey Wheeler was an engineer so 10 Engineering 11 Chris Cavette I believe at that point in 12 time was in marketing I think he was one of the 13 marketing managers 14 Steve Vanderlip Rick Harris Bob 15 Giebelhaus and Chuck Koske were all engineering 16 Q. Okay And as far as the asbestos 551D brake 17 goes PACCAR did not switch to the nonasbestos version 18 of that brake until all of the asbestos brakes were 19 gone true 20 MR IRVIN Misstates testimony 21 MR FLYNN Objection lack of foundation 22 calls for speculation assumes facts Lack of 23 foundation 24 A. I don't know that we have a document that 25 specifically spells that out Asbestos Reporters GPS affiliate 214-347-4781 Paccar Inc. PMQ Rodney Curbo September 26 2023 289 1 Q. BY MR JONES Let me show you what I'll mark 2 as Exhibit 42 to the deposition 3 Exhibit 42 marked 4 A. Okay 5 Q. BY MR JONES What is Exhibit 42 6 A. Appears to be a fax from Karen Filipek -- or 7 I'm sorry to Karen Filipek And I'm not for sure who 8 it -- I don't recall who it was from Q. Steve Vanderlip 10 A. I think there may be another page 11 Q. It's on the front page 12 A. Oh Yep from Steve Vanderlip There it is 13 Q. Who is Steve Vanderlip 14 A. He was an engineer 15 Q. What was his position 16 A. He was one of the engineers -- I think he 17 was -- at this point in time I think he may have been 18 the group lead for the foundation group -- brake group 19 Q. Okay And who is Karen Filipek 20 A. I believe she was a Rockwell employee 21 Q. And this message from Mr. Vanderlip says Per 22 Bob Bolla Rockwell has run out of 551D asbestos brake 23 lining for the 15 by 6 RDA wedge brakes Because of 24 this we will be changing to Carlisle NAB 25 Asbestos Linings Asbestos Reporters GPS affiliate 214-347-4781 Paccar Inc. PMQ Rodney Curbo September 26 2023 290 1 Did I read that correctly 2 A. You did 3 Q. Okay And this is a true and correct copy of a 4 document found in PACCAR's files 5 A. It is 6 Q. This document was authored by a PACCAR 7 employee true 8 A. Yes Q. Okay 10 A. But what it doesn't say is anything about the 11 15 by 7 RDA brakes or any of the other wedge brakes 12 Just they ran out on that particular brake 13 MR BARONIAN Trey 14 MR JONES Yes sir 15 MR BARONIAN Trey what was the Bates 16 number on that Could I see it before you move on to 17 the next 18 MR JONES Yeah 1655 or 1653 or 1659 19 165 -- 20 21 just -- 22 MR BARONIAN Wait I'm sorry You MR JONES 165. And then the fourth 23 number is written over And I can't tell if it's 24 a -- go ahead 25 MR BARONIAN Okay So it's four digits Asbestos Reporters GPS affiliate 214-347-4781 Paccar Inc. PMQ Rodney Curbo September 26 2023 291 1 and one -- starts with a 1. All right Give me 2 second We'll try and -- 3 MR JONES 165 and then I can't tell 4 what the fourth digit is 5 I can exclude some It's not 0. It's 6 not a It's not a 2. Could be a 3 It's not 4 7 Could be a 5 It's not a 6 not a 7 not an 8 could be 8 9 THE WITNESS 1659 10 MR JONES It's 1659 11 MR BARONIAN Inaudible Hold on 12 Oh this -- is the deal where the numbers 13 are so tiny you can't read it 14 MR JONES No. This one it's written 15 over The Bates stamp is on top of handwriting -- 16 MR BARONIAN Oh all right Hold on 17 MR JONES -- in the document 18 MR BARONIAN I'm close now I'm at 19 1641 so I'm close 1656 20 MR JONES Bob I don't care if you're 21 there or not I'm not going to ask about it anymore 22 There's nothing you can do about it right now so I'd 23 like to move on 24 MR BARONIAN No. I just -- just give me 25 a second and let me look at it please Asbestos Reporters GPS affiliate 214-347-4781 Paccar Inc. PMQ Rodney Curbo September 26 2023 292 1 Okay 16 -- was it 50 Is that what you 2 said 3 THE WITNESS 59 4 MR JONES 59 5 MR BARONIAN 59. Sorry Okay 6 Okay Oh I see it Okay 7 That's fine Go ahead Thank you 8 Q. BY MR JONES Was it a big deal when PACCAR learned that asbestos was a hazardous material 10 MR IRVIN Vague ambiguous overbroad 11 argumentative 12 A. Don't know 13 Q. BY MR JONES I mean whenever that was at 14 some point PACCAR learned that potentially every truck 15 they sold had asbestos in it right 16 A. Possibly 17 Q. And the asbestos was in wear items meaning 18 things that are replaced right 19 A. Yes 20 Q. Brakes are replaced true 21 A. Yes they are 22 Q. Clutches are replaced 23 A. Yes they are 24 Q. Gaskets are replaced 25 A. Yes they are Asbestos Reporters GPS affiliate 214-347-4781 Paccar Inc. PMQ Rodney Curbo September 26 2023 293 1 Q. So whenever PACCAR learned about asbestos 2 hazards it knew that people repairing Kenworth and 3 Peterbilt trucks could potentially encounter these 4 components true 5 MR IRVIN Assumes facts argumentative 6 A. I would assume so 7 Q. BY MR JONES Okay The hazards of asbestos 8 is something that PACCAR's executives would have been aware of true 10 A. Again I don't know 11 What I can say is all I can do is assume 12 that it was a large enough deal that they hired an 13 industrial hygienist in 1974 who ultimately beginning 14 in 1976 did sampling regarding asbestos 15 So it was an important concern which they 16 addressed 17 Q. Well and Peterbilt had to spend a lot of money 18 because of asbestos right 19 MR IRVIN Vague ambiguous overbroad 20 A. I'm not for sure what you're -- what you mean 21 Q. Well the transition away from asbestos was an 22 almost project right 23 A. It was a long project 24 Q. With sev -- many different engineers working on 25 it true Asbestos Reporters GPS affiliate 214-347-4781 Paccar Inc. PMQ Rodney Curbo September 26 2023 294 1 A. That's correct 2 Q. And PACCAR kept track of the engineers hours 3 true 4 A. That's correct 5 Q. And the reason PACCAR had to keep track of 6 those hours is time they're spending on this asbestos 7 thing is time they're not spending on other engineering 8 projects true A. That's true 10 Q. PACCAR had to pay for the testing to approve 11 the nonasbestos linings true 12 A. Correct 13 Q. These projects had to be approved by PACCAR 14 executives true 15 A. PACCAR managers yes 16 Q. PACCAR executives were definitely aware of the 17 asbestos issues related with the transition from 18 asbestos to nonasbestos true 19 MR IRVIN Argumentative overbroad 20 calls for speculation assumes facts 21 A. Can you rephrase the question 22 Q. BY MR JONES Sure 23 PACCAR's executives were definitely aware 24 of the issues related to the transition from asbestos to 25 nonasbestos brakes true Asbestos Reporters GPS affiliate 214-347-4781 Paccar Inc. PMQ Rodney Curbo September 26 2023 295 1 A. I don't know that I have anything that in -- H 2 mean what -- I guess my -- maybe I'm splitting hairs 3 What are you considering an executive At what level 4 is -- 5 Q. The Chief Executive Officer -- 6 A. Okay 7 Q. -- as high up as you can possibly go at PACCAR 8 had to be aware of this multiyear project involving every truck by -- sold by PACCAR including the brakes 10 in every single truck Right 11 A. Personally I would assume that there was some 12 knowledge but I don't know to what level 13 Q. Just to start one of these projects to 14 transition from asbestos to nonasbestos linings required 15 the approval of multiple employees at PACCAR including 16 managers true 17 A. Yes 18 That's the case for any engineering 19 project 20 Q. Let me show you what I'll mark as Exhibit 43 21 Exhibit 43 marked 22 Q. BY MR JONES What is Exhibit 43 23 A. It is a Project Initiation Form 24 Give me a moment Things have changed 25 over the years Asbestos Reporters GPS affiliate 214-347-4781 Paccar Inc. PMQ Rodney Curbo September 26 2023 296 1 This is for a project 81021 -- I'm sorry 2 This is Project 83103 which is to 3 Reevaluate nonasbestos brake linings for production 4 usage compatibility and proper matching of powering to 5 achieve optimum braking to be determined 6 Q. The reason for the project is there is a market 7 demand for this type of brake shoe lining true 8 A. That's what he states Q. And the brake shoe lining referred to is a 10 nonasbestos brake true 11 A. I believe so 12 Q. And just to get this project approved there 13 had to be four different signatures true 14 A. Yes within -- that's all within Engineering 15 Q. During this project did anybody in management 16 say Hey maybe we should start informing our customers 17 about all the different asbestos components found in our 18 truck until we get it switched over to nonasbestos 19 MR IRVIN Argumentative vague 20 ambiguous overbroad calls for speculation 21 A. I've not seen in any document -- 22 Q. BY MR JONES Did you see - 23 A. -- something related to that But 24 Q. Did you see any evidence that management at 25 PACCAR wanted to provide their own warnings about Asbestos Reporters GPS affiliate 214-347-4781 Paccar Inc. PMQ Rodney Curbo September 26 2023 297 1 asbestos hazards whether or not the suppliers provided 2 those warnings 3 A. I think by 1983 which this document is we had 4 information from Mr. Bissonnette that we had done 5 sampling and didn't find any asbestos when mechanics 6 were working on brakes or when people in the plants were 7 working around brakes 8 Q. Are you familiar with Dr. Irving Selikoff A. I've heard the name 10 Q. How have you heard the name 11 A. Through this -- through various depositions 12 But we -- I believe we also have a document that 13 references some study that was done by Selikoff and 14 others 15 Q. And Dr. Selikoff was at Mount Sinai true 16 MR IRVIN Calls for speculation 17 A. I don't know 18 Q. BY MR JONES Okay He was an asbestos 19 researcher right 20 A. I don't know 21 Q. Okay What do you -- you know anything else 22 about him 23 A. No. 24 Q. Okay Well did PACCAR try to go out and see 25 has anybody done a study to find out if work with brakes Asbestos Reporters GPS affiliate 214-347-4781 Paccar Inc. PMQ Rodney Curbo September 26 2023 298 1 causes asbestos exposures 2 A. I don't know regard -- specifically 3 regarding -- I don't think we've seen any documents 4 that -- regarding that 5 MR IRVIN Vague overbroad ambiguous -- 6 Q. BY MR JONES Let me show you what I'll -- 7 MR IRVIN -- calls for speculation and 8 beyond the scope Q. BY MR JONES Let me show you what I'll mark 10 as Exhibit 44 11 Exhibit 44 marked 12 MR JONES Rohl and Langer 76 13 MR IRVIN Okay 14 Q. BY MR JONES Have you seen Exhibit 44 before 15 A. I may have but I don't recall 16 Q. Okay 17 A. I don't believe so 18 Q. Exhibit 44 is an article entitled Asbestos 19 Exposure During Brake Lining Maintenance and Repair in 20 a journal called Environmental Research And the date 21 is 1976. True 22 A. Appears to be 23 MR IRVIN And Trey can I get a running 24 objection to beyond the scope 25 MR JONES Yes Asbestos Reporters GPS affiliate 214-347-4781 Paccar Inc. PMQ Rodney Curbo September 26 2023 299 1 MR IRVIN Thank you 2 MR JONES I disagree but it's not my 3 job to bicker about objections I'm reminding myself 4 right now Consider myself reminded 5 Yes 6 MR IRVIN Thank you Counselor 7 Q. BY MR JONES The authors are identified as 8 being from the Environmental Sciences Laboratory Mount Sinai School of Medicine of the City University 10 of New York True 11 A. That -- yes 12 Q. Okay And it talks -- the abstract the first 13 sentence says Data obtained on asbestos exposure of 14 garage mechanics during brake lining maintenance and 15 repair work show that fiber concentrations -- show 16 that -- yeah -- fiber concentrations frequently in 17 excess of regulated limits are common 18 Did I read that correctly 19 A. Yes 20 Q. Did PACCAR know that 21 A. I don't know 22 Q. Okay 23 A. But what I can say is in 1976 Mr. Bissonnette 24 did sampling and found no asbestos 25 Q. Well air -- did sampling for what Asbestos Reporters GPS affiliate 214-347-4781 Paccar Inc. PMQ Rodney Curbo September 26 2023 300 1 A. It says that he did sampling for mechanic 2 doing brake repair work and clutch repair work 3 Q. But it doesn't say that they used compressed 4 air right 5 A. It does not 6 Q. It didn't say did they brush out the drums with 7 a haired brush right 8 A. We've already talked about it It doesn't -- we don't have a lot of details on the 10 testing 11 Q. You don't have any idea what they were doing 12 when they did the testing other than the very brief 13 description in the documents right 14 MR IRVIN Argumentative 15 A. And the brief description says they were doing 16 brake repair and clutch repair 17 Q. BY MR JONES What does this document say they 18 were doing 19 This document really spells out what they 20 tested right 21 A. I don't know I have not read the document 22 MR IRVIN Well yeah 23 Q. BY MR JONES Well let's go to page -- you 24 can just look at the pictures and see 25 Let's go to page 120 of the document Asbestos Reporters GPS affiliate 214-347-4781 Paccar Inc. PMQ Rodney Curbo September 26 2023 301 1 There's a picture of a guy beveling a truck brake lining 2 at a municipal garage It's figure 5 3 MR FLYNN Counsel which year is this of 4 the series of -- 5 MR IRVIN I'm sure it says -- 6 MR JONES '76 7 MR IRVIN Yeah 8 Q. BY MR JONES Do you see the picture of the gentleman beveling a brake lining 10 A. I do 11 Q. And then if you go to the next page there's 12 another picture of this gentleman grinding brake linings 13 to remove grease and dirt Do you see that 14 A. That's what the caption says 15 Q. And you can tell by the size of that brake 16 lining that that's the brake lining for either a heavy 17 truck or a bus or something like that right 18 A. It's -- appears for a heavy vehicle of 19 some sort 20 Q. Okay The type of vehicle that Kenworth and 21 Peterbilt manufactured right 22 MR IRVIN Well calls for speculation 23 A. It's similar in size to a truck brake 24 Q. BY MR JONES I skipped one There's a 25 picture of -- oh Go to 118. There's a picture of a Asbestos Reporters GPS affiliate 214-347-4781 Paccar Inc. PMQ Rodney Curbo September 26 2023 302 1 guy using compressed air to blow dust off a brake 2 assembly on a car right 3 A. Yes 4 Q. Just looking at the pictures -- 5 MR FLYNN Object foundation 6 MR IRVIN Go -- 7 THE REPORTER What'd he say 8 MR FLYNN I'm going to object foundation -- 10 THE REPORTER Object foundation 11 MR FLYNN -- calls for expert testimony 12 vague ambiguous overbroad 13 MR JONES You have to be an expert to 14 see a picture I'm not supposed to bicker about 15 objections I'm going to listen to myself again 16 Q. BY MR JONES Okay On page 118 there's a 17 picture of a guy blowing out a brake assembly with 18 compressed air right 19 A. According to the -- 20 MR FLYNN Objection lack of foundation 21 Calls for speculation 22 A. According to the caption that's what it 23 indicates that he's doing 24 Q. BY MR JONES So we've got a -- I mean just 25 looking at the pictures of this document we got a Asbestos Reporters GPS affiliate 214-347-4781 Paccar Inc. PMQ Rodney Curbo September 26 2023 303 1 pretty good idea of what they tested right 2 MR IRVIN No. Argumentative 3 MR FLYNN Same objections 4 MR IRVIN Yeah Same objections 5 A. I've not read the document I don't know 6 Q. BY MR JONES Why would PACCAR's company 7 industrial hygienist come up with results so drastically 8 different than these researchers from Mount Sinai MR IRVIN Calls for speculation 10 foundation argumentative 11 A. I don't know 12 MR IRVIN And calls for an expert 13 opinion 14 Q. BY MR JONES Let's look at the billed sheets 15 We're going to -- okay 16 MR JONES Let's attach as Exhibit 45 a 17 page document printed on -- what's the size of this 18 paper 19 MR IRVIN 11 by 17 20 MR JONES 11 by 17. Is it two pages or 21 do you just have 22 THE WITNESS It's two pages 23 MR IRVIN Okay Thank you 24 MR JONES M going to mark the 25 Exhibit 45 And then I'll put a little number 1 on the Asbestos Reporters GPS affiliate 214-347-4781 Paccar Inc. PMQ Rodney Curbo September 26 2023 304 1 bottom hand corner of the first page and a little 2 number 2 in the bottom hand corner of the second 3 page 4 5 Q. 6 Exhibit 45 marked BY MR JONES Have you written on that one No. 7 Let's trade them because I put the sticker on 8 that one A. Okay 10 Q. Okay What is Exhibit 45 11 A. This is a Excel spreadsheet which I created 12 based off of the Final Chassis Bills of Material that 13 were requested by Plaintiffs attorney And so by 14 chassis number I tried to pull out what I felt like was 15 the pertinent information that you might be asking for 16 Q. So what were you looking for when you looked 17 for this stuff 18 A. So what I pulled out was the chassis number 19 Most of these were what we would term fleets or small 20 fleets so I gave the beginning and ending chassis of 21 the fleet 22 If the Final Chassis Bill of Material 23 indicated the distributor or dealer number who the 24 dealer was I indicated that 25 If it indicated the dealer location I Asbestos Reporters GPS affiliate 214-347-4781 Paccar Inc. PMQ Rodney Curbo September 26 2023 305 1 included that 2 Who the customer or operator depending on 3 the time frame there were two different terms that were 4 used Customer or operator would be the ultimate 5 customer who at least the dealer had originally ordered 6 the truck for 7 Who the front axle supplier what the 8 model of the front axle was part number for the front brakes who the rear axle supplier rear axle model 10 rear brakes part number 11 Transmission supplier transmission model 12 clutch supplier the clutch disk part numbers what type 13 of clutch it was 14 And then I have some comments regarding 15 some of the additional information that was in the Final 16 Chassis Bill of Material 17 MR FLYNN Counsel can I interrupt you 18 please Is there some way to identify this document or 19 drop it into the Chat so we could see it or at least get 20 a Bates number or put eyeballs on it 21 MR BARONIAN I was thinking the same 22 thing 23 MR JONES Let's go off the record 24 MR IRVIN I'll send you guys a PDF 25 THE VIDEOGRAPHER The time is 3:17 p.m. Asbestos Reporters GPS affiliate 214-347-4781 Paccar Inc. PMQ Rodney Curbo September 26 2023 306 1 We are now off the record 2 Break was from 3:17 p.m. to 3:26 p.m. 3 THE VIDEOGRAPHER The time is 3:26 p.m. 4 We're now back on the record 5 Counsel you may proceed 6 Q. BY MR JONES Okay Exhibit 45 is a summary 7 of a couple thousand pages probably 8 A. Yes Q. Okay And what you did is you summarized the 10 data from these voluminous records to get the things 11 that indicate who the axle brake transmission engine 12 and clutch suppliers were True 13 A. Yeah Based off of the deposition notice I 14 tried to summarize the information that I believed that 15 you were looking for 16 Q. And for the chassis numbers are these 17 individual chassis numbers or are they a series of 18 chassis numbers or a little bit of both 19 A. Well the answer is yes 20 Q. Okay 21 A. So for -- 22 Q. Let's start at the top 23 A. So for instance if you look at the very first 24 one Chassis Number 239946 it's for that fleet So 25 those -- the trucks 239946 through 239950 will be Asbestos Reporters GPS affiliate 214-347-4781 Paccar Inc. PMQ Rodney Curbo September 26 2023 307 1 identical 2 Q. And so that means that is five trucks -- 3 A. That's correct 4 Q. -- 46 47 48 49 and 50 5 A. That's correct 6 Q. So the chassis number on the left does that 7 represent an individual truck 8 A. Yes Q. Okay And then what are the beginning chassis 10 number and ending chassis numbers -- what's the 11 significance of those 12 A. Well so for instance we just talked about 13 the first one That's a truck fleet That's the 14 beginning of the five trucks and the ending of the five 15 trucks 16 The next one after that is 24725 and the 17 beginning chassis number for that fleet is 24725. The 18 ending chassis number is 24727. So that's a truck 19 fleet 20 Q. Okay 21 A. That's 22 MS JACKSON Trey this is Gaby can I 23 interrupt you Did you send these documents to all of 24 us 25 MR JONES I didn't no Asbestos Reporters GPS affiliate 214-347-4781 Paccar Inc. PMQ Rodney Curbo September 26 2023 308 1 MR IRVIN I sent it to Johan and Bob 2 because I have their mails handy 3 4 please 5 Can one of you guys send it to Gaby MR FLYNN Yeah I'll take care of it 6 right now 7 8 MS JACKSON Appreciate it MR IRVIN Thank you Q. BY MR JONES And then do you have the year on 10 here 11 A. I did not put the year 12 Q. Okay But my recollection from reviewing them 13 is they were all from the 1974 -'79 something 14 like that time period 15 A. Well I believe that that's close 16 Q. It's going to be in the documents but it's in 17 the -- 18 A. The time -- it's in that time frame 19 Q. Okay 20 What's the -- for a brand new truck 21 what's the expected life of a truck 22 A. During this time frame probably in the 23 million range Maybe less 24 Q. Okay 25 A. Really depends on the service and how it's used Asbestos Reporters GPS affiliate 214-347-4781 Paccar Inc. PMQ Rodney Curbo September 26 2023 309 1 and how it's maintained 2 Q. 3 miles And how long will it take to get to a million 4 A. Again it depends on the service of the truck 5 For Kraft we were provided with what was 6 it like a newsletter from Kraft that had some 7 information about Kraft's transportation company or 8 division and it looked like they drove roughly 120 -- 100- 120,000 miles a year per -- on each truck 10 Q. So roundabout ten years 11 A. Nine -- eight to ten years 12 Q. Something like that 13 A. Yeah 14 Q. Okay Did you count up how many trucks you 15 could confirm were sold to a business that had Kraft or 16 Kraft Foods in the name 17 A. I did not I believe there was one that 18 didn't It had a different -- I think 19 20 one MR IRVIN Probably the Richard Petty 21 MR JONES That's separate That's my 22 personal collection 23 A. I thought there was one that wasn't but I'm 24 not seeing it 25 Q. BY MR JONES Okay So if it -- where it says Asbestos Reporters GPS affiliate 214-347-4781 Paccar Inc. PMQ Rodney Curbo September 26 2023 310 1 Customer Operator for example it doesn't say Kraft 2 all the way down for all the chassis Is that because 3 you only made the entry once for the series 4 I mean -- so let's look at 272023 5 THE WITNESS You know what 6 MR IRVIN Yeah 7 THE WITNESS He doesn't have the final 8 That's the one I printed out the other day and I added some information 10 MR IRVIN Well I thought she gave 11 me -- I had -- 12 THE WITNESS She gave you this That's 13 this one -- 14 MR IRVIN -- three copies 15 THE WITNESS The copy you have is a 16 previous version because I did some work I realized 17 that these were -- there was information missing 18 A. If I look here I think all of these were 19 either Kraft Foods Kraft Kraft Lehigh Kraft Inc 20 Sealtest So that's the variation in the -- 21 Q. BY MR JONES Got it 22 A. -- dealer end So sorry 23 Q. We've been referring to Exhibit 45 we're 24 referring to the document in front of you with the 25 sticker on it Asbestos Reporters GPS affiliate 214-347-4781 Paccar Inc. PMQ Rodney Curbo September 26 2023 311 1 A. And it's the final version 2 Q. What you handed me -- because we swapped them 3 I put the -- 4 A. Right 5 Q. -- sticker on the one that you gave me We 6 swapped so that you had the one with the sticker H 7 have an older version 8 But the exhibit is the current version we've been talking about the whole time 10 A. Yes sir 11 Q. All right That's good enough for me Okay 12 MR IRVIN And that's the one everyone on 13 the Zoom has 14 MR JONES Okay 15 Q. BY MR JONES For the axles did it appear 16 that all of the axles were supplied by either Rockwell 17 or Timken 18 A. Yes 19 MR BARONIAN Lacks foundation 20 Go ahead 21 Q. BY MR JONES For the brakes -- 22 A. Let me back up 23 Q. Yeah 24 A. For the front axles it appears that all of 25 them were provided by Rockwell or Timken Asbestos Reporters GPS affiliate 214-347-4781 Paccar Inc. PMQ Rodney Curbo September 26 2023 312 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 10 11 12 I think on the rear axles there were a few of them that I couldn't tell -- Q. Okay A. -- without having additional information Q. For the rear axle -- A. No. Q. - it was either -- A. I'm sorry Q. -- Rockwell or you couldn't tell A. No. Let me back up Q. Okay A. There are some -- 13 Q. Let me ask you a question 14 A. Okay 15 Q. Who were the manufac -- 16 MR BARONIAN No. Misstates -- hold on 17 Misstates testimony 18 Go ahead 19 Q. BY MR JONES Who were the manufacturers of 20 the rear axles on the -- in the PACCAR Kenworth billed 21 sheets you summarized 22 A. So I believe it was all Rockwell or Timken 23 What you will see is some blanks within 24 the column for Rear Axle Supplier because it was not 25 specifically specified in the Final Chassis Bill of Asbestos Reporters GPS affiliate 214-347-4781 Paccar Inc. PMQ Rodney Curbo September 26 2023 313 1 Material But based off of the model of the axle I 2 believe that they were all either Rockwell or Timken 3 Q. Okay So -- 4 MR BARONIAN Hold it Move to strike 5 based on speculation Lacks foundation 6 Q. BY MR JONES So based on your review of the 7 records it appears that all of the front and rear axles 8 were either Rockwell or Timken axles A. It appears that way 10 MR BARONIAN Misstates the testimony 11 lacks foundation -- 12 Q. Who supplied -- 13 MR BARONIAN I'm sorry Lacks 14 foundation Calls for speculation 15 Go ahead 16 MR IRVIN You might want to build a 17 foundation 18 MR JONES Okay 19 Q. BY MR JONES How do you -- how do you know 20 that these are Rockwell or Timken axles identified in 21 these documents 22 A. Well based on my experience I know that you 23 know the SQHP axles are Rockwell models for a rear 24 axle 25 Q. And how -- what experience is that Asbestos Reporters GPS affiliate 214-347-4781 Paccar Inc. PMQ Rodney Curbo September 26 2023 314 1 A. Thirty years working at Peterbilt and 2 multiple years prior to that working as mechanic 3 Q. And through that work you've become familiar 4 with the designation for Rockwell axles 5 A. Yes 6 Q. Have you seen that designation in PACCAR billed 7 sheets and then looked at the actual axle itself and 8 confirmed that this billed sheet referring to SQHD is in fact a Rockwell axle 10 A. Yes 11 Q. Okay Okay How else do you know that what's 12 identified in the documents are either Rockwell or 13 Timken axle What experience do you have to establish 14 that 15 MR BARONIAN Assumes facts 16 A. Thirty years working as an engineer for 17 Peterbilt and had experience with those axles I've 18 work -- done design work associated with those axles 19 ... 20 Q. BY MR JONES On many of the billed sheets it 21 says Rockwell right 22 A. There are -- yes 23 Q. So for a lot of them it either says the name 24 Rockwell and then the part number or it just has the 25 part number right Asbestos Reporters GPS affiliate 214-347-4781 Paccar Inc. PMQ Rodney Curbo September 26 2023 315 1 A. That's correct 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 10 11 Q. And if it says Rockwell and has the part number and you see that same part number somewhere else what does that indicate to you A. It's likely the same Q. Okay MR BARONIAN Hold on Move on Assumes facts lacks foundation MR JONES Bob you're God You're God MR BARONIAN Yeah yeah Go ahead 12 MR JONES All right 13 Q. BY MR JONES Who supplied the brake 14 assemblies for the trucks -- the Kenworth trucks where 15 the customer operator is identified as Kraft 16 MR IRVIN Overbroad 17 A. Well to the best of my knowledge and 18 understanding all of the brake part numbers appear to 19 be Rockwell brakes 20 Q. BY MR JONES And what is your experience in 21 that area 22 A. Well again 39 years at Peterbilt 23 I was also engineering manager for the 24 vehicle systems which included responsibility for our 25 air brake system Asbestos Reporters GPS affiliate 214-347-4781 Paccar Inc. PMQ Rodney Curbo September 26 2023 316 1 Q. And through that experience did you have 2 experience working with Rockwell part numbers for brake 3 assemblies 4 A. Yes I did 5 Q. Okay For Rockwell brake assemblies who 6 supplied the brakes -- and I'm not asking about the 7 brake lining -- but the brake itself with the lining 8 attached MR BARONIAN Assumes facts Lacks 10 foundation 11 A. So are you asking who supplied the brake -- the 12 assembled brake shoes to Rockwell 13 Q. BY MR JONES Let me ask it this way Did the 14 Rockwell brake assemblies include the brake and friction 15 lining 16 A. You're talk -- 17 MR BARONIAN Assumes facts Lacks 18 foundation 19 A. When you say brake and lining are you speaking 20 of the brake shoe assembly 21 Q. BY MR JONES Correct 22 A. They would come in with the brake assembly from 23 Rockwell 24 Q. Okay Did you ever see a circumstance where 25 PACCAR purchases brake assemblies and the brake Asbestos Reporters GPS affiliate 214-347-4781 Paccar Inc. PMQ Rodney Curbo September 26 2023 317 1 assembly showed up for a drum brake system and the 2 actual drum brake shoe assembly wasn't part of it 3 A. There are some points in time in certain brakes 4 that they were assembled in our plant 5 Q. Okay Was that rare or common 6 A. It was fairly rare 7 Q. Okay 8 A. Is my understanding Q. And typically the brake assembly purchased by 10 PACCAR included the brake shoe and lining 11 A. Typically 12 Q. Okay 13 MR BARONIAN Assumes facts lacks 14 foundation calls for speculation 15 Q. BY MR JONES Through your review of these 16 documents were you able to identify the supplier of the 17 friction brake linings 18 A. I was not 19 Q. Okay You saw the number 551C 20 A. Ah Sorry I wasn't for the most part except 21 for on some of the descriptions within the Final 22 Chassis Bill of Material it did indicate which lining 23 was used on some of those parts -- 24 Q. Okay 25 A. -- not all Asbestos Reporters GPS affiliate 214-347-4781 Paccar Inc. PMQ Rodney Curbo September 26 2023 318 1 Q. And so where -- 2 MR FLYNN Object -- I'm going to object 3 and move to strike Lack of foundation speculation 4 Q. BY MR JONES Your summary is a summary of 5 documents produced by PACCAR in this case that are from 6 Bates number PACCAR 002539 through PACCAR 005271 true 7 A. That's correct 8 Q. Okay And that Bates series that I just read all of those documents are true and correct copies of 10 documents found in PACCAR's files true 11 A. To the best of my knowledge they are 12 Q. And you've reviewed all of them every page 13 right 14 A. Yes I have 15 Q. Okay And you -- these actually came from 16 PACCAR's files These aren't ones I gave you Right 17 A. That's correct 18 Q. Okay These documents were authored by PACCAR 19 true 20 A. Yes 21 Q. They were authored at or near the time 22 indicated in the document where it indicates when the 23 chassis was generated true 24 A. Correct 25 Q. Okay These documents are main -- were created Asbestos Reporters GPS affiliate 214-347-4781 Paccar Inc. PMQ Rodney Curbo September 26 2023 319 1 in the normal course of PACCAR's business of 2 manufacturing and selling heavy trucks true 3 A. Yes they were 4 MR IRVIN It might be a good time to 5 attach 46 over there the two additional pages 6 MR JONES Oh yeah 7 We're going to -- well let me make sure I 8 got all this business -- record business done MR IRVIN Can I see those pages 10 MR JONES Yeah 11 What's our next in order 12 THE VIDEOGRAPHER 46 13 THE REPORTER 46 14 Exhibit 46 marked 15 MR IRVIN Let me just -- 16 MR JONES Oh 17 MR IRVIN I'm just going take a quick 18 scan of these so that when we get people wanting 19 them -- to send them 20 Here you go Counsel 21 MR JONES Thank you 22 Q. BY MR JONES Are you the custodian of records 23 for PACCAR for these documents 24 A. Yes 25 Q. Okay And how are you qualified to identify Asbestos Reporters GPS affiliate 214-347-4781 Paccar Inc. PMQ Rodney Curbo September 26 2023 320 1 that these documents are in fact business records of 2 PACCAR 3 A. Well I've worked with them for years as well 4 as pulled the information together 5 Q. And how are these documents prepared in your 6 experience 7 A. As -- you mean -- what -- how are they prepared 8 for proof -- Q. How are they generated 10 A. Oh 11 Q. How were they -- 12 A. How do we create them 13 Q. Correct 14 A. So it begins with the customer placing an order 15 through a dealership that that order which is a listing 16 of option codes is sent to Peterbilt or Kenworth 17 To make a long process very short 18 essentially what happens is those option codes are used 19 to generate and select Bills of Material which are what 20 are denoted by the numbers called M number That's 21 Bill of Material number 22 So it generates a Bill of Material based 23 off of what's ordered And that's all pulled together 24 That's the parts that are ordered to build the truck 25 So that grouping of parts gets segregated Asbestos Reporters GPS affiliate 214-347-4781 Paccar Inc. PMQ Rodney Curbo September 26 2023 321 1 out in different types of reports One is it goes to 2 Purchasing to purchase the parts 3 One is is it goes -- it -- one is it goes 4 into an engineering file which is the Final Chassis 5 Bill of Material before it becomes an FCBM We call it 6 a chassis image which Engineering's job is to ensure 7 this is as accurate as possible before the truck is 8 completed So in the event that there's changes that 10 occur or whatever along the process those are captured 11 in the chassis image And then the chassis image on 12 the day that the truck is completed is captured and 13 becomes the Final Chassis Bill of Material 14 Q. What is the business purpose of these 15 documents 16 A. It's to capture how the truck was manufactured 17 how it was assembled what components were used 18 And then it also is used by our 19 dealerships for whenever a customer comes in and he 20 says I need a new plate -- wear plate -- wear equalizer 21 plate on the suspension 22 And so the parts guy can go in and look at 23 the Final Chassis Bill of Material find that wear 24 equalizer plate and know that he's got to order Part 25 Number K274-90 That's what he needs to replace that Asbestos Reporters GPS affiliate 214-347-4781 Paccar Inc. PMQ Rodney Curbo September 26 2023 322 1 worn plate or whatever the part is 2 Q. And the date -- there's a date at the beginning 3 of these documents that indicates when the truck was 4 built 5 A. It's the -- the date is on the top of every 6 page which indicates the day that the truck was 7 completed 8 Q. And when were these generated A. In that late 70s -- I don't remember if they 10 go into 1980 -- time frame 11 Q. I guess my question is is When is the billed 12 sheet generated in relation to the date the truck is 13 constructed Is it the same day a few days before a 14 few days after 15 A. Generally it's -- there's a little bit of lag 16 time sometimes 17 What you might find is a truck that was 18 finished late Friday afternoon might have a billed date 19 of early Monday morning 20 But in general most of the billed 21 sheets -- or the Final Chassis Bill of Materials are 22 generated the day that the truck is completed 23 Q. So the idea is that when the truck rolls off 24 the assembly line that's also when the chassis 25 bill -- Final Chassis Bill of Materials is generated Asbestos Reporters GPS affiliate 214-347-4781 Paccar Inc. PMQ Rodney Curbo September 26 2023 323 1 A. Yes sir 2 Q. Okay And that's enter -- indicated on the 3 date at the top of each document 4 A. That's correct 5 Q. Okay When you see the code 551C in these 6 documents what does that mean 7 A. Well what I saw is there were either notes or 8 the brake part number description which indicated that -- and I believe it was all on the front 10 brakes -- yeah the -- quite a few of the trucks -- the 11 front brake there was either a note or part of the 12 brake description that indicated that the linings were 13 551Cs 14 Q. And what does that mean 15 MR FLYNN Objection -- objection Move 16 to strike Lack of foundation speculation 17 A. It means that the brake linings on -- it would 18 mean to me that the brake linings on that particular 19 front brake were 551C Abex linings 20 Q. And how do you -- 21 MR FLYNN Same objections Same 22 objections 23 Q. BY MR JONES How do you know that a -- 24 MR JONES You're God too 25 Q. BY MR JONES How do you know that the 551C Asbestos Reporters GPS affiliate 214-347-4781 Paccar Inc. PMQ Rodney Curbo September 26 2023 324 1 is an Abex lining 2 A. Just based off my experience 3 MR FLYNN Objection speculation lack 4 of foundation lack of personal knowledge 5 A. Based off of my experience 6 But what I will say is it -- really the 7 only way to determine for sure is to look at the prints 8 for those brake part numbers which would define what components were used in the brake assembly 10 Q. BY MR JONES Does the 551C designation tell 11 you anything about whether or not the part is an 12 asbestos part 13 A. Well again assuming that I'm correct in my 14 assumption that that's Abex 551C lining that would be 15 an asbestos lining 16 Q. And do you have any reason to question that 17 that 551C is an Abex lining 18 A. I do not 19 MR FLYNN Objection speculation 20 argumentative lack of foundation lack of personal 21 knowledge Ramirez 22 MR JONES Well you guys all of a sudden 23 like that Ramirez case huh I don't think it was that 24 popular with y'all when it first came out 25 Q. BY MR JONES And how are you familiar with Asbestos Reporters GPS affiliate 214-347-4781 Paccar Inc. PMQ Rodney Curbo September 26 2023 325 1 551C being an brand lining 2 MR FLYNN Same objections 3 A. Well I think we have documents that we've 4 produced that indicate that 551C is asbestos lining 5 Q. BY MR JONES And how do you know that it's 6 an brand lining 7 MR FLYNN Same objections 8 A. I don't 100 percent I just know that there is an Abex 551C lining 10 Q. BY MR JONES Have Eaton and Rockwell informed 11 PACCAR that the 551C is an asbestos lining 12 MR BARONIAN Overly broad assumes 13 facts 14 MR FLYNN Hearsay 15 MR IRVIN Calls for speculation 16 Reporter clarification) 17 MR IRVIN He said foundation 18 MR FLYNN I said hearsay 19 MR IRVIN Oh hearsay 20 Reporter clarification) 21 A. I said I'm not for sure I don't recall 22 Reporter clarification) 23 Q. BY MR JONES One second 24 Okay Were you able to identify the 25 clutch suppliers in the Kenworth billed sheets where the Asbestos Reporters GPS affiliate 214-347-4781 Paccar Inc. PMQ Rodney Curbo September 26 2023 326 1 customer operator is identified as Kraft 2 A. Yes I was 3 Q. And who was the supplier of the clutches 4 A. Looks like Spicer was for all the trucks 5 Q. And it looks like there's a mixture of organic 6 and ceramic clutches 7 A. Yes 8 Q. Up until 1982 the Spicer organic clutch was an asbestos clutch true 10 A. I believe that that's true 11 Q. And what engines were identified as being used 12 in the Kenworth trucks built where the customer or 13 operator is identified as Kraft 14 A. I didn't include that in this list but I 15 believe they were all Cummins engines 16 Q. And what's the basis for that statement 17 A. I've looked at it while I was going through 18 and I don't recall seeing another engine 19 Q. Cummins is pretty easy because mostly it says 20 Cummins right 21 A. It says Cummins or something like NTC 22 I'm familiar with the model numbers as 23 well 24 Q. Okay So your recollection from reviewing the 25 documents is that the engines identified in the Final Asbestos Reporters GPS affiliate 214-347-4781 Paccar Inc. PMQ Rodney Curbo September 26 2023 327 1 Chassis Bill of Materials for Kenworth trucks where the 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 10 11 12 identi -- operator or customer is identified as Kraft were Cummins engines true A. For these chassis that we looked at MR JACKSON Move to strike the last series of questions Speculation foundation MR JONES Okay That's all my questions I'll pass the witness MR IRVIN All right Can we take minute -- does anyone on the Zoom have questions MR FLYNN I have some questions for Abex 13 MR IRVIN Who else Anybody 14 MR BARONIAN I do too yeah 15 MR IRVIN All right 16 MR JONES Do you want me to move 17 MR IRVIN Yeah 18 THE VIDEOGRAPHER Are we going off the 19 record still 20 MR IRVIN Yeah 21 THE VIDEOGRAPHER The time is 3:55 p.m. 22 We are off the record 23 Break was from 3:55 p.m. to 4:13 p.m. 24 THE VIDEOGRAPHER This is the beginning 25 of Media Unit Number 4. The time is 4:13 p.m. We are Asbestos Reporters GPS affiliate 214-347-4781 Paccar Inc. PMQ Rodney Curbo September 26 2023 328 1 now back on the record 2 Counsel you may proceed 3 MR IRVIN And before we start just a 4 piece of housekeeping We're going to attach as 5 Exhibit 46 the two additional pages of the Final Bill of 6 Chassis Materials that Mr. Curbo provided here today 7 Go ahead Mr. Flynn 8 EXAMINATION BY MR FLYNN 10 Q. Mr. Curbo my name is Johan Flynn I represent 11 Pneumo Abex LLC Can you hear me all right sir 12 A. Yes 13 Q. All right Great 14 You would agree with me would you not 15 that Abex was never an exclusive supplier of 16 containing friction materials for use in brake 17 assemblies used by either Kenworth PACCAR or 18 Peterbilt correct 19 A. To my knowledge Abex was not an exclusive 20 supplier of brake linings that were used on Peterbilt or 21 Kenworth products 22 Q. Okay And also the same with PACCAR as well 23 A. Or PACCAR that's correct 24 Q. Okay You're familiar with the term OEM 25 right Asbestos Reporters GPS affiliate 214-347-4781 Paccar Inc. PMQ Rodney Curbo September 26 2023 329 1 A. 2 hear I'm -- could you just say it again I couldn't 3 Q. I'm sorry Mr. Curbo 4 You're familiar with the term OEM are 5 you not 6 A. Yes 7 Q. And that stands for Original Equipment 8 Manufacturer correct A. Correct 10 Q. And Kenworth PACCAR Peterbilt was an original 11 equipment manufacturer of off -- of highway tractors 12 Is that a fair assessment 13 A. Yes 14 Q. Okay You're familiar with the term tractor 15 A. Yes 16 Q. Okay I'm going drop into the Chat two 17 exhibits Exhibits 47 and 48. And then I'll share my 18 screen sir Give me one second here 19 Exhibits 47 and 48 marked 20 Q. BY MR FLYNN I'm now sharing on the screen 21 Do you see Exhibit 47 Mr. Curbo 22 A. I see a -- what appears to be a photograph of a 23 Kenworth over truck -- tractor 24 Q. And what exactly -- describe to the jury what a 25 over truck means Asbestos Reporters GPS affiliate 214-347-4781 Paccar Inc. PMQ Rodney Curbo September 26 2023 330 1 A. Well essentially there's I'm going to say two 2 classifications of truck One is a over where the 3 cab is over -- located up -- on top of or over the 4 engine 5 The other is what we call a conventional 6 which is the truck that has a nose with a hood out in 7 front that covers the engine 8 Q. And was a Model 123 Kenworth the over tractor 10 A. I don't recall if they called them 123s 11 100 And there may have been a specific version of 12 the 100 that they called the 123 I don't recall 13 seeing that model designation 14 Q. All right But it's fair to say then that a 15 100 series Kenworth tractor is what's depicted in 16 Exhibit 47 is that fair 17 A. I believe so yes 18 Q. Okay And is this the model of tractor that 19 was sold to Kraft where Mr. Carpenter worked 20 A. I believe so 21 Q. Okay And when we use the term 22 trailer why do we use that term tractor and 23 trailer Why is there that distinction 24 A. Well I think maybe what you're asking about is 25 there's tractors Tractors pull a trailer And then Asbestos Reporters GPS affiliate 214-347-4781 Paccar Inc. PMQ Rodney Curbo September 26 2023 331 1 there's trucks which generally have some sort of body 2 on them that carries the load And they can also pull a 3 trailer but it's typically not in the same fashion as a 4 tractor pulls a trailer 5 Q. And Kenworth PACCAR and Peterbilt were 6 manufacturers of the tractors and not the trailers Is 7 that -- my understanding correct 8 A. You are correct Q. I'm now sharing on my screen what's marked as 10 Exhibit 48 Do you see that sir 11 A. I do 12 Q. Is what's depicted in Exhibit 48 based on your 13 knowledge and experience another example of a 100 14 Kenworth tractor 15 A. Yes it is 16 Q. In this case Mr. Curbo you can't tell the 17 jury the percentage of Abex friction materials that were 18 used in OEM Rockwell brake assemblies supplied to 19 Kenworth from 1978 to 1987 is that true 20 A. As I sit here today I cannot tell you -- tell 21 that I don't know what that percentage would be 22 Q. And likewise for PACCAR you can't tell the 23 jury in this case the percentage of Abex friction 24 materials used in OEM Rockwell brake assemblies supplied 25 to PACCAR from 1978 to 1987 true Asbestos Reporters GPS affiliate 214-347-4781 Paccar Inc. PMQ Rodney Curbo September 26 2023 332 1 A. As I sit here today I cannot tell you that 2 percentage 3 Q. Okay And you also can't tell the jury the 4 percentage of Abex friction materials used in OEM 5 Rockwell brake assemblies supplied to Peterbilt from 6 1978 to 1987 true 7 A. That's true 8 MR BARONIAN Assumes facts Q. BY MR FLYNN I want to shift gears now and 10 talk about Eaton 11 Eaton was also a supplier of brake 12 assemblies to Kenworth PACCAR and Peterbilt from 1978 13 to 1987 correct 14 A. That's correct 15 Q. And you can't tell the jury in this case the 16 percentage of Abex friction materials used in OEM Eaton 17 brake assemblies supplied to Kenworth PACCAR or 18 Peterbilt from 1978 to 1987 true 19 A. That's true I cannot tell you that 20 percentage 21 Q. And in your role as the Person Most Qualified 22 or corporate representative of Kenworth PACCAR and 23 Peterbilt you're aware of who the suppliers of 24 containing brake linings were that were used in 25 the brake assemblies sold to Kenworth PACCAR and Asbestos Reporters GPS affiliate 214-347-4781 Paccar Inc. PMQ Rodney Curbo September 26 2023 333 1 Peterbilt over time Is that a fair statement 2 A. I would say I'm at least aware of some of them 3 Q. You're aware that Carlisle was also a supplier 4 of containing brake linings used in brake 5 assemblies sold to Kenworth PACCAR and Peterbilt 6 correct 7 A. That's my understanding 8 Q. You're also aware that Raybestos was also a supplier of containing brake linings used in 10 brake assemblies sold to Kenworth PACCAR and 11 Peterbilt correct 12 A. I believe so 13 Q. And you're also aware that Bendix was also a 14 supplier of containing brake linings used on 15 brake assemblies sold to Kenworth PACCAR and 16 Peterbilt correct 17 A. They may have been I'm not -- 18 Q. And -- 19 A. -- for sure about that 20 Q. -- are you aware sir of whether a company 21 called Nuturn N or Merimar phonetic was a 22 supplier of containing brake linings used on 23 brake assemblies sold to Kenworth PACCAR or Peterbilt 24 A. I don't know 25 Q. Okay Mr. Curbo are you aware from documents Asbestos Reporters GPS affiliate 214-347-4781 Paccar Inc. PMQ Rodney Curbo September 26 2023 334 1 produced by PACCAR in this case that Abex stopped 2 selling and supplying containing friction 3 materials as of December 31 1987 4 A. I believe that's accurate 5 Q. And there's actually a document in the PACCAR 6 document collection that discusses that very issue does 7 it not 8 A. Yes Q. I'm going to drop into the Chat what I will 10 mark as Exhibit 49 11 Exhibit 49 marked 12 Q. BY MR JONES And I'll share my screen in just 13 a second Mr. Curbo Bear with me 14 Mr. Curbo do you see on the screen what's 15 marked as Exhibit Number 49 16 A. Yes It's pretty small 17 Can you give me Bates number and I can 18 look it up 19 Q. Sure It's PACCAR000422 You see it in the 20 lower right corner of the document 21 A. Okay 22 Q. PACCAR 422 23 A. It's different Let me look September 3 24 1986 25 Huh I think you must be looking at a Asbestos Reporters GPS affiliate 214-347-4781 Paccar Inc. PMQ Rodney Curbo September 26 2023 335 1 different set of discovery 2 Q. Okay Well that -- can we work off my screen 3 MR JONES Well I don't have it What 4 is it 5 6 So -- MR FLYNN I dropped it into the Chat 7 MR JONES Well I'm here live and in 8 person I'm not on the Zoom MR IRVIN It's -- it's -- 10 MR FLYNN Inaudible September 3 1986 11 letter from Abex that was in PACCAR's file saying when 12 Abex was selling asbestos brakes 13 MR IRVIN It's from - 14 MR JONES September 3 86 15 MR FLYNN September 3 '86 yes 16 MR JONES I got 873. And it's part of 17 Exhibit 37. It's one of the documents in Exhibit 37 18 MR IRVIN His version is from 19 different case is what the watermark tells me 20 MR JONES Oh That's -- you got to the 21 bottom of that because you're going to remember this 22 case I guarantee And not because of that dadgum 23 watermark 24 MR FLYNN Inaudible it even says on 25 the document the Bates label Long v PACCAR Asbestos Reporters GPS affiliate 214-347-4781 Paccar Inc. PMQ Rodney Curbo September 26 2023 336 1 5/24/2018 2 MR JONES Hey we're just working in 3 this case all right Johan Your 863 4 THE WITNESS 873 5 MR JONES All right 6 873 7 MR FLYNN 873. Okay 8 Well it's the same document we can talk through it 10 MR JONES Right 11 THE WITNESS Right 12 Q. BY MR FLYNN Exhibit 49 Mr. Curbo is a 13 September 3 1986 memo from Abex This was a document 14 found in PACCAR's business records correct 15 A. Yes 16 Q. This is a fair and accurate copy of PACCAR'S 17 business record labeled 873 is it not 18 A. Yes 19 Q. And this is a document maintained in the 20 ordinary course of PACCAR's business 21 A. Yes 22 Q. And in the third paragraph of that of 23 Exhibit 49 it's -- 24 MR JONES Johan we stipulated that this 25 is authentic and was received by PACCAR previously Asbestos Reporters GPS affiliate 214-347-4781 Paccar Inc. PMQ Rodney Curbo September 26 2023 337 1 This is part of Exhibit 37 2 MR FLYNN Okay All right 3 Well I wasn't provided what was in 4 Exhibit 37 so I was working off of a an exhibit 5 inaudible 6 MR JONES Sure Just letting you know 7 Go ahead 8 Q. BY MR FLYNN Mr. Curbo let me restart Exhibit 49 that's been stipulated to as 10 an authentic business record of PACCAR states 11 Effective live January 1 1988 Abex Corporation will no 12 longer sell any asbestos materials 13 Did I read that correctly 14 A. You did 15 Q. And this is a letter that PACCAR received from 16 Abex at or around the time of September 3 1986 17 A. Yes I believe so 18 Q. Okay Mr. Curbo did you know what 19 Mr. Carpenter did when he worked at Kraft from 1978 to 20 1987 21 MR JONES Lacks foundation calls for 22 speculation 23 A. Can you ask the question just because 24 there's a detail that I -- 25 Q. BY MR FLYNN Sure Asbestos Reporters GPS affiliate 214-347-4781 Paccar Inc. PMQ Rodney Curbo September 26 2023 338 1 A. -- need to make sure I got 2 Q. Do you know Mr. Curbo as the Person Most 3 Qualified for PACCAR what Mr. Carpenter the Plaintiff 4 in this case did when he worked at Kraft from 1978 to 5 1987 6 MR JONES Lacks foundation calls for 7 speculation 8 A. My recollection based off of reading his deposition I believe he was a truck driver 10 Q. BY MR FLYNN Okay And based upon your 11 review of Mr. Carpenter's deposition are you aware of 12 whether Mr. Carpenter ever adjusted any brakes on any of 13 the trucks he operated as a truck driver at Kraft from 14 1978 to 1987 15 MR JONES Lacks foundation lacks 16 personal knowledge calls for speculation 17 A. My recollection from the deposition is he said 18 that he did not adjust any brakes at Kraft 19 Q. BY MR FLYNN And are you aware of whether 20 Mr. Carpenter ever testified that he did any mechanic 21 work including inspecting removing installing 22 handling manipulating sanding grinding filing or 23 blowing out any of the brakes on the trucks he operated 24 as a truck driver at Kraft from 1978 to 1987 25 MR JONES Lacks foundation calls for Asbestos Reporters GPS affiliate 214-347-4781 Paccar Inc. PMQ Rodney Curbo September 26 2023 339 1 speculation no personal knowledge 2 A. My recollection from reading his deposition was 3 that he said he did not do any work on the truck that he 4 drove at Kraft -- or the trucks that he drove at Kraft 5 that the -- they had mechanics that took care of the 6 maintenance work 7 Q. BY MR FLYNN And your understanding from 8 reviewing Mr. Carpenter's deposition is that he was not a mechanic correct 10 MR JONES Lacks foundation lacks 11 personal knowledge calls for speculation 12 A. My understanding is that he did not work as a 13 mechanic while he was at Kraft 14 Q. BY MR FLYNN And based upon your review of 15 Mr. Carpenter's depositions he never -- it's your 16 understanding that he never identified any Abex friction 17 materials during the course of his deposition true 18 MR JONES Lacks foundation lacks 19 personal knowledge calls for speculation 20 A. My recollection is that Mr. Carpenter was not 21 aware of a company called Abex or any of their products 22 Q. BY MR FLYNN And are you aware based on your 23 review of the case materials in this case Mr. Curbo 24 whether there's any information as to who supplied the 25 replacement brake linings that were used at Kraft when Asbestos Reporters GPS affiliate 214-347-4781 Paccar Inc. PMQ Rodney Curbo September 26 2023 340 1 Mr. Carpenter worked there from 1978 to 1987 2 MR JONES Lacks foundation lacks 3 personal knowledge calls for speculation 4 A. Nothing beyond what Mr. Carter sic I think 5 testified that he saw -- he testified he saw Bendix 6 brakes He testified he saw Eaton and Rockwell brakes 7 is my recollection 8 Q. BY MR FLYNN I want to shift gears a little bit and ask you some questions about brake linings 10 Based on your experience your work your 11 personal knowledge when you were at -- working for 12 PACCAR and its related entities how long in terms of 13 mileage were asbestos brake linings that were used in 14 Kenworth PACCAR and Peterbilt tractor brake facilities 15 designed to last -- how long were they designed to last 16 before they were intended to be replaced or removed 17 MR JONES Lacks foundation calls for 18 speculation 19 MR IRVIN You asked him this question 20 A. I'm not a hundred sure what the design 21 target was I think we have some documents in our 22 production that indicate there were at least some fleets 23 that got in the range of a 100- to 130,000 miles before 24 a brake change 25 Q. BY MR FLYNN And did Kenworth PACCAR Asbestos Reporters GPS affiliate 214-347-4781 Paccar Inc. PMQ Rodney Curbo September 26 2023 341 1 Peterbilt believe that the containing friction 2 materials that they included with their axles in their 3 tractors were safe 4 MR JONES Lacks foundation calls for 5 speculation 6 A. Yes I believe so 7 Q. BY MR FLYNN And PACCAR Kenworth or 8 Peterbilt ultimately were the entities that determined whether or not to include any potential warning about 10 asbestos related to the brake assemblies used in their 11 tractors correct 12 MR IRVIN Vague ambiguous overbroad 13 calls for a legal conclusion 14 A. Well I think as I testified before what we 15 did is we passed on the information that was provided to 16 us from our components suppliers 17 Q. BY MR FLYNN So ultimately the one who made 18 the decision of whether to include a warning was 19 Kenworth PACCAR or Peterbilt correct 20 MR IRVIN Same objections 21 A. No. I think as we know Rockwell included a 22 warning in their maintenance manual in 1978 23 Q. BY MR FLYNN Even -- 24 MR BARONIAN Objection -- hold on 25 Objection nonresponsive Move to strike Asbestos Reporters GPS affiliate 214-347-4781 Paccar Inc. PMQ Rodney Curbo September 26 2023 342 1 Q. BY MR FLYNN So let me ask the question 2 again 3 Even though Kenworth PACCAR and 4 Peterbilt believed that the containing friction 5 materials you used in your axles and your tractors was 6 safe it was ultimately your decision -- Kenworth's 7 PACCAR's or Peterbilt's -- whether or not to include 8 any potential warning about asbestos related to your tractors Fair 10 MR IRVIN Same objections 11 A. Well I think given that the practice at the 12 time was that we passed along our component suppliers 13 information we didn't make the decision of whether or 14 not the component suppliers included a warning in their 15 documentation or not 16 Q. BY MR FLYNN But the ultimate decision of who 17 included a warning or didn't include a warning rested 18 with you as the OEM manufacturer of the tractor -- 19 MR IRVIN Asked and answered 20 Q. BY MR FLYNN -- fair 21 A. As I said we didn't make the decision of what 22 warnings were placed in the OEM -- or I'm sorry -- in 23 the component suppliers manuals They made that 24 decision 25 Q. And -- Asbestos Reporters GPS affiliate 214-347-4781 Paccar Inc. PMQ Rodney Curbo September 26 2023 343 1 MR BARONIAN Move to strike 2 Hold on Johan 3 MR FLYNN Sorry 4 MR BARONIAN Move to strike as 5 nonresponsive his last answer and the answer to the 6 previous question I couldn't get my finger on the mute 7 button fast enough 8 Thank you MR FLYNN I apologize Bob for speaking 10 too quickly 11 Q. BY MR FLYNN This isn't designed to be a 12 trick question Mr. Curbo I'm only trying to figure 13 out that whether or not when you received a warning 14 from say it was from Abex or if it was from Rockwell 15 you would include that warning to your end users 16 Correct 17 A. I'm sorry Say -- ask it again 18 Q. All right When you received -- or PACCAR 19 Kenworth Peterbilt whichever one it was received the 20 Rockwell catalog that had a warning in it you passed 21 that warning along to your end users of your tractors 22 that you were selling Is that fair 23 A. That's correct 24 Q. Okay Looking -- oh couple more questions H 25 want to just authenticate a couple of documents I Asbestos Reporters GPS affiliate 214-347-4781 Paccar Inc. PMQ Rodney Curbo September 26 2023 344 1 don't know if these documents were in the set of 2 documents or not that were included in 37 but I'm just 3 going to authenticate these documents and then I think 4 I'm finished 5 MR FLYNN Just adding exhibit numbers so 6 inaudible Like right when I need my computer to 7 cooperate it doesn't want to cooperate Give me one 8 second please MR JONES Oh is the Zoom over here too 10 THE REPORTER Yes 11 MR JONES Oh 12 MR FLYNN I had these all queued up and 13 ready to go but then it just doesn't want to pass -- 14 MR IRVIN Just jump and I'll catch you 15 MR FLYNN There we go 16 Q. BY MR FLYNN I'm going to drop into the Chat 17 three exhibits Exhibits 50 51 and 52 18 Exhibits 50 to 52 marked 19 Q. BY MR FLYNN I'm going to share my screen 20 Exhibit Number 50 Mr. Curbo is a PACCAR 21 labeled document It's 123 to 124 22 Do you recognize what I have marked as 23 Exhibit Number 50 to the deposition Mr. Curbo 24 A. I believe so 25 Q. Is Exhibit 50 a letter dated February 2 sic Asbestos Reporters GPS affiliate 214-347-4781 Paccar Inc. PMQ Rodney Curbo September 26 2023 345 1 1985 from Scott Wetzel Services Incorporated a document 2 that was found in PACCAR's business records 3 A. I believe so 4 Q. Was this a document Exhibit -- 5 MR JONES Hey give us one second 6 We're trying to get the -- get it in the room 7 THE WITNESS Yeah It's different 8 Okay So that's February MR JONES I feel like I recognize it 10 What is it February 3rd sic what Eighty 11 THE WITNESS 183 12 MR IRVIN Okay 13 THE WITNESS Yeah 14 A. Looks like it's 173 and 174 15 Q. BY MR FLYNN All right The Bates label is 16 so small I can't even read it so thank you for 17 clarifying it I'll ask my questions again 18 Mr. Curbo do you see on the screen what 19 we've marked as Exhibit 50 PACCAR 173 to 174 20 A. Yes 21 Q. Is this a business record that was kept in the 22 ordinary course of business by PACCAR 23 A. Yes 24 You should probably show me 174 just to 25 make sure Yes Asbestos Reporters GPS affiliate 214-347-4781 Paccar Inc. PMQ Rodney Curbo September 26 2023 346 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 Q. And the page has Table I Airborne Asbestos Concentrations A. Correct Q. to 174 Is this a fair and accurate copy of PACCAR 173 A. It appears to be Q. All right And then we'll shift gears to the next one which is PACCAR 171 to 172 which is Exhibit 51 Do you see that on the screen Mr. Curbo A. Yes I do Q. Okay A. Yes I do Q. Is Exhibit 51 a fair and accurate copy of a PACCAR business record dated June 25 1984 A. It appears to be MR JONES Hang on hang on Can we find it in this case please MR IRVIN Thank you THE WITNESS Sure 20 MR IRVIN Here 21 THE WITNESS Here It's -- I got that 22 right here Well here it is 23 Okay We have it 24 MR JONES What -- 25 THE WITNESS 171 and 172 Asbestos Reporters GPS affiliate 214-347-4781 Paccar Inc. PMQ Rodney Curbo September 26 2023 347 1 MR JONES Okay 2 Q. BY MR FLYNN Is Exhibit 51 Mr. Curbo a fair 3 and accurate copy of a business record maintained by 4 PACCAR 5 A. It appears to be yes 6 Q. Was this a document that was kept in the 7 ordinary course of business by PACCAR 8 A. Yes Q. Is this a fair and accurate copy of that 10 business record 11 A. It appears to be 12 Q. Exhibit 52 sir which I'm now showing on my 13 screen is a document labeled PACCAR 240 Do you 14 see that 15 A. Yes I do 16 Q. Is Exhibit 52 PACCAR 240 dated 17 March 12th -- March 2 1987 a fair and accurate copy of 18 a PACCAR business record 19 A. Yes 20 Q. Is Exhibit 52 a document that was kept in the 21 ordinary and regular course of PACCAR's business 22 MR JONES What was 52 the number again 23 I'm sorry 24 THE WITNESS 240 25 MR JONES 240. Thank you Asbestos Reporters GPS affiliate 214-347-4781 Paccar Inc. PMQ Rodney Curbo September 26 2023 348 1 MR FLYNN All right With that I have 2 no further questions I'm going to jump off and go pick 3 my kids up But I'll be on the Zoom -- or listening on 4 the phone 5 I appreciate your time Mr. Curbo and 6 your attention sir Best wishes 7 THE WITNESS Thank you 8 MR IRVIN Bob Bob MR BARONIAN I'll go Sure I'll go 10 Shouldn't take me very long 11 EXAMINATION 12 BY MR BARONIAN 13 Q. Can you hear me all right Mr. Curbo 14 A. I can 15 Q. Great 16 You earlier were asked by Mr. Jones about 17 PACCAR -- oh boy If I can find the number -- 1659 18 Do you recall that 19 It was the document -- to refresh your 20 memory this was the document from a Karen 21 Filipek -- actually it was from Steve Vanderlip to 22 Karen Filipek dated February 28 1989 on Peterbilt 23 memorandum or form Do you recall that 24 A. I do 25 Q. Okay And in the context -- or in the middle Asbestos Reporters GPS affiliate 214-347-4781 Paccar Inc. PMQ Rodney Curbo September 26 2023 349 1 of that document it says Per Bob Bolla Rockwell has 2 run out of 551 -- it looks like 0 -- but asbestos brake 3 lining to the -- or for the 15 by 6 RDA wedge brakes 4 Because of this we will be changing to Carlisle -- I 5 believe that's -- NAB nonasbestos linings 6 You recall that 7 A. Yes 8 Q. Okay My question is You didn't have this conversation with this person Bob Bolla at Rockwell 10 did you 11 A. Me personally 12 Q. Correct 13 A. No. I -- me personally I did not 14 Q. Okay So anything you told us about any such 15 conversation is based on others having a conversation 16 It's not something you were party to You didn't talk 17 to this fellow about what's in this document did you 18 A. Not that I recall 19 Q. Thank you 20 All right I'm going to shift gears now 21 For the -- any of the Kenworth trucks that 22 are identified in the billed sheets that you reviewed a 23 short while ago you were not present when those trucks 24 were being assembled at Kenworth were you 25 A. No I was not Asbestos Reporters GPS affiliate 214-347-4781 Paccar Inc. PMQ Rodney Curbo September 26 2023 350 1 Q. And you did not personally work on them 2 assembling them or doing any of the work that was 3 required to put them together did you 4 A. No I did not 5 Q. All right So you did not see any Rockwell 6 axle or Rockwell brakes yourself personally on 7 any of the Kenworth trucks identified in any of the 8 Kraft billed sheets did you A. No I did not 10 Q. All right So any testimony you gave us today 11 about those billed sheets is based solely on your review 12 of what's in those billed sheets as opposed to your 13 personal knowledge Would that be fair 14 MR JONES I'm going to object to 15 compound 16 MR IRVIN And overbroad and vague 17 MR JONES And join those objections 18 Q. BY MR BARONIAN Well I can restate it 19 Let's try this 20 Since you did not personally take part in 21 any of the work any testimony you gave about the Kraft 22 billed sheets and those Kenworth trucks that went to 23 Kraft is based on your review of those billed sheets 24 Would that be fair 25 A. Yes Asbestos Reporters GPS affiliate 214-347-4781 Paccar Inc. PMQ Rodney Curbo September 26 2023 351 1 Q. Okay As a result you do not have any 2 personal knowledge yourself other than what's in those 3 billed sheets as to what brand of brake assembly or 4 what brand of brakes went on any of those Kenworth 5 trucks to Kraft is that correct 6 A. I would not have personal knowledge as to 7 exactly what went on those trucks except for the fact 8 that I know that the Final Chassis Bill of Material we work extremely hard to ensure that they are 100 percent 10 accurate at the time that that truck was man -- was 11 assembled 12 Q. I understood your answer 13 MR BARONIAN And respectfully move to 14 strike the nonresponsive portion 15 Q. BY MR BARONIAN All right You mentioned 16 earlier that there were times when Kenworth assembled 17 the brakes at their plant onto brake assemblies is that 18 correct 19 MR IRVIN That's -- misstatements 20 testimony 21 A. I believe what I said is I -- my understanding 22 is that there were some volume brakes at various 23 points in time that were assembled at the Peterbilt or 24 Kenworth factories as opposed to purchasing the entire 25 brake assembly Asbestos Reporters GPS affiliate 214-347-4781 Paccar Inc. PMQ Rodney Curbo September 26 2023 352 1 Q. BY MR BARONIAN Okay 2 MR IRVIN And vague as to brakes versus 3 brake shoes or brake linings 4 Q. BY MR BARONIAN Okay And have you heard the 5 " term dressed and undressed in reference to axles on 6 trucks 7 A. Yes 8 Q. Could you explain to us what the difference is A. Well there were also -- there's certain times 10 when we have -- have had dressed axles which include 11 the brake assemblies being installed on the axles when 12 they're received from the supplier So dressed would be 13 with the brake assemblies installed 14 Undressed would be ones that we would 15 install the brake assemblies to the axle 16 Q. Okay And when there are undressed axles does 17 that necessarily mean that those brake assemblies that 18 Kenworth would put on those axles in assembling the 19 truck come from the same component supplier or could 20 they come from a different supplier as well 21 A. I'm not for sure -- so I'm not for sure I 22 follow your question Can you rephrase it a little bit 23 Q. Sure sure 24 Well let's try it this way You 25 explained to us what a dressed axle is That's Asbestos Reporters GPS affiliate 214-347-4781 Paccar Inc. PMQ Rodney Curbo September 26 2023 353 1 basically -- correct me if I'm wrong That's basically 2 where the axle is supplied with the brake assemblies 3 already attached Fair 4 A. Yes 5 Q. So if Kenworth purchased from a component 6 supplier such as Rockwell or Eaton a dressed axle 7 that would mean that when Rockwell or Eaton sold that 8 axle to Kenworth for assembly in one of its trucks it not only came with the axle but with the brake assembly 10 already attached to that axle Is that fair 11 A. Yes 12 Q. Okay If Kenworth bought a brake -- I'm 13 sorry -- an axle from either Rockwell or Eaton or both 14 for that matter that was undressed that would mean the 15 brake assembly was not attached to the axle when it was 16 received from either Eaton or Rockwell true 17 A. That's correct 18 Q. All right In that instance when an undressed 19 axle is received by Kenworth Kenworth would have to put 20 the brake assembly on as part of the assembly of the 21 truck true 22 A. That's correct 23 Q. And in putting that brake assembly on does it 24 necessarily mean that a Rockwell brake assembly would 25 have to go on a Rockwell axle or could an Eaton brake Asbestos Reporters GPS affiliate 214-347-4781 Paccar Inc. PMQ Rodney Curbo September 26 2023 354 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 assembly be put on a Rockwell axle or vice versa A. You could install either brake on either axle meaning a Rockwell axle could have Eaton or Rockwell brakes installed as well as an Eaton axle could have Rockwell or Eaton brakes installed Q. Got it Do you know -- well let me back up again We've already established that you don't have personal knowledge of any of the trucks that Kenworth sold to Kraft how they were assembled other than reviewing the billed sheets So what I want to ask you now is Do you know based on looking at the billed sheets if any of the Kenworth trucks that were assembled by Kenworth for sale to Kraft if the axles that came from the component suppliers were undressed versus dressed MR JONES Object to compound and argumentative A. If I understood your question correctly -- first of all I'm going to limit it to the trucks that we reviewed for this case Whether or 22 not -- 23 Q. BY MR BARONIAN Yes 24 A. -- there's additional Kraft trucks I'm not for 25 certain Asbestos Reporters GPS affiliate 214-347-4781 Paccar Inc. PMQ Rodney Curbo September 26 2023 355 1 Q. Fair enough 2 A. But for those my recollection is all of the 3 axles were undressed 4 Q. Meaning that Kenworth itself would be putting 5 the brake assemblies on those axles when they assembled 6 the trucks at their factory 7 A. That's correct 8 Q. I want to shift gears here Even if we assume that Rockwell supplied a 10 brake that went on a Kenworth truck that went to Kraft 11 once the first brake job is done you would have no way 12 of knowing what replacement brakes were put on such a 13 truck is that true 14 A. That is true 15 Q. And you have no documentation in any of 16 PACCAR's files to indicate what replacement brakes Kraft 17 used on any of the trucks they purchased from Kenworth 18 when subsequent brake changes were done 19 A. That is correct 20 Q. So as to any brake that Mr. Carpenter may have 21 been around or near that came off a Kenworth truck at 22 his job at Kraft Foods you wouldn't know what brand of 23 brake that was by any documentation or anything you've 24 seen in this case would you 25 MR JONES You're not including Asbestos Reporters GPS affiliate 214-347-4781 Paccar Inc. PMQ Rodney Curbo September 26 2023 356 1 Mr. Carpenter's deposition anymore 2 MR BARONIAN Sure Because he testified 3 he didn't see the name on anything that came off a 4 truck So sure you can include his testimony 5 MR JONES All right 6 A. Could you ask the question 7 MR JONES Actually I take it back 8 Don't include Carpenter's testimony because I'm just going to object anyway I'm just smarting off to Bob 10 MR BARONIAN I know You can't help 11 yourself 12 If the reporter would be so kind -- Kim 13 if you could kindly read my question back 14 Requested portion read 15 A. Well I think we would know what the brakes 16 were the first time that a brake job was done but after 17 that we would not 18 Q. BY MR BARONIAN And you don't know based on 19 the testimony you've seen whether 20 Mr. Carpenter -- well withdrawn 21 MR BARONIAN I think I'm good with that 22 That's all I have at this time Thank 23 you 24 25 going MR IRVIN Rod are you okay to keep Asbestos Reporters GPS affiliate 214-347-4781 Paccar Inc. PMQ Rodney Curbo September 26 2023 357 1 THE WITNESS Sure 2 EXAMINATION 3 BY MR IRVIN 4 Q. Mr. Curbo I'd like to ask you a few questions 5 on behalf of PACCAR 6 You started -- I think you told Mr. Jones 7 you started with PACCAR in 1983 8 A. Yes Q. Tell us a little bit about your work experience 10 before then 11 A. Well prior to that -- I'll start from high 12 school Out of high school I went to Wyman Technical 13 Institute where I got a certificate for a diesel 14 technician So I worked as a truck mechanic 15 Ultimately decided to go back to school 16 Worked some as a mechanic in other areas while I was 17 going through school part of that time going to school 18 to be a mechanical engineer And after school I was 19 able to get a job at Peterbilt 20 Some of the places that I worked as a 21 mechanic I worked at an international dealership and 22 then for a Detroit diesel distributor and then for a 23 Peterbilt dealership 24 And then whenever I was working at a 25 Peterbilt dealership is whenever I decided to go Asbestos Reporters GPS affiliate 214-347-4781 Paccar Inc. PMQ Rodney Curbo September 26 2023 358 1 to -- back to college 2 Q. And what's the time frame here 3 when -- you -- well let me back up 4 You were a heavy truck mechanic yourself 5 A. Yes 6 Q. And what's that time frame where you were a 7 professional heavy truck mechanic before you decided to 8 go to school and then worked your way through school A. 1976 to -- well I worked still -- main -- 10 kept working while I was in school for the first couple 11 years So about 1980 roughly 12 Q. And so you were a heavy truck mechanic working 13 on Class A trucks at the same time that Kraft received 14 these -- you know some of these Kenworths that are 15 reflected in the billed sheets 16 A. Yes 17 Q. I want to go back and talk with you a little 18 bit about some of the documents some of the questions 19 Mr. Jones asked you 20 The first thing I'm going to do is hand 21 you what Mr. Jones marked as Exhibit 23 22 You recognize that document 23 A. Yes 24 Q. And do you recall -- will you turn to page you 25 know PACCAR 92 Asbestos Reporters GPS affiliate 214-347-4781 Paccar Inc. PMQ Rodney Curbo September 26 2023 359 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 10 11 12 13 A. Yes Q. Do you recall that Plaintiffs counsel -- MR JONES Which one is 23 Sorry MR IRVIN It is the -- THE WITNESS The -- MR JONES Got it What's the date MR IRVIN It's the Team Approach to Safety and Health Seminar MR JONES Yeah Okay Q. BY MR IRVIN Okay And you recall that on page 92 Plaintiffs counsel asked you a little bit -- to read a little bit about the statement there that says Lack of information to evaluate the hazards 14 15 please 16 MR JONES What Bates page are you on MR IRVIN 92 17 MR JONES Okay Thank you 18 A. Yeah lack of enforcement personnel 19 Oh yeah Reading There is a lack of 20 information to evaluate hazards 21 Q. BY MR IRVIN And then he asked you next about 22 the mixed exposures -- 23 A. Correct 24 Q. -- asked you to agree that that mentions mixed 25 exposures Asbestos Reporters GPS affiliate 214-347-4781 Paccar Inc. PMQ Rodney Curbo September 26 2023 360 1 A. Yes 2 Q. And he read that to you 3 A. That's my recollection 4 Q. And what's the -- when it says mixed 5 exposures what's the phrase behind that that Mr. Jones 6 didn't read to you 7 A. It says in parentheses after mixed exposures 8 Several different chemicals Q. Chemicals So this portion of the document 10 that he read from dealt with chemical exposures 11 A. Appears to yes 12 Q. Now you mentioned that that document also 13 says -- and Mr. Jones referenced that -- the lack of 14 enforcement personnel for OSHA 15 A. Yes 16 Q. What did PACCAR do in 1974 to address this lack 17 of you know OSHA inspectors Did it hire anybody 18 A. I believe that -- it may have been related to 19 some of that -- was they hired Dave Bissonnette as a 20 corporate industrial hygienist 21 Q. And turn to PACCAR Bates 77 on there which 22 should be ahead of this 23 Did Mr. Bissonnette actually attend this 24 meeting called A Team Approach to Health and Safety 25 A. Yes he did Asbestos Reporters GPS affiliate 214-347-4781 Paccar Inc. PMQ Rodney Curbo September 26 2023 361 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 10 11 12 Q. Now I want to unpack a little bit about who Mr. Bissonnette is since he's referenced in this document and Mr. Jones attaches Exhibit 23. to attach this as Exhibit 53 I am going MR IRVIN Look at me Exhibit 53 marked MR IRVIN Mr. Jones MR JONES Yes sir Thank you Q. BY MR IRVIN Handing you what is marked as Exhibit 53 Could you identify that document for the record sir A. Yeah This is a document which we found 13 that -- where Mr. Bissonnette was going to be speaking 14 at an American Society of Safety Engineers gathering 15 Q. Now tell us a little bit about 16 Mr. Bissonnette's background This document discusses 17 it but explain to the jury a little bit about his 18 background 19 A. Yeah I mean he was a industrial hygienist 20 compliance officer for the State of Washington which 21 is -- my understanding is essentially Washington 22 state's version of OSHA 23 He was also a research assistant at the 24 University of Washington which is where he graduated 25 from Asbestos Reporters GPS affiliate 214-347-4781 Paccar Inc. PMQ Rodney Curbo September 26 2023 362 1 Q. Did he graduate from the Washington School of 2 Public Health 3 MR JONES Lack foundation calls for 4 speculation 5 Q. BY MR IRVIN Will you look at Exhibit 53 and 6 let me know if it tells you where Mr. Bissonnette 7 graduated from 8 A. I don't remember if it tells me here or if it's in another document 10 But this says he was a research assistant 11 for the University of Washington School of Public Health 12 and Community Medicine 13 Q. Yeah All right Thank you 14 And you -- so when we're talk -- you 15 recall Mr. Jones asked you a little bit about OSHA and 16 levels of asbestos And he attached I think 17 Exhibit 19 which discussed exposure and levels of 18 asbestos 19 A. Yes 20 Q. And promulgated by OSHA 21 A. Yes 22 Q. And PACCAR in '74 hires an -- someone who had 23 work closely with OSHA Is that your understanding of 24 who Dave Bissonnette was who attended the meeting in 25 Exhibit 23 Asbestos Reporters GPS affiliate 214-347-4781 Paccar Inc. PMQ Rodney Curbo September 26 2023 363 1 A. Yes I believe he was a -- well it says he 2 was a compliance officer for them for the State of 3 Washington 4 Q. Now will you turn back to Exhibit 23 for me 5 Let's go back there 6 A. Okay 7 Q. Now will you turn to page 133 of that 8 document or PACCAR 101 A. To 101 10 Q. Yes sir 11 A. Yes 12 Q. Now dis -- what is that particular page in 13 that document 14 A. This appears to be probably the presentation 15 that Mr. Bissonnette gave at this seminar 16 Q. And what in that particular passage strikes you 17 as important about Mr. Bissonnette's philosophy for 18 recognizing and addressing potential hazards 19 A. In the second paragraph he talks about There 20 are three basic industrial hygiene principals sic 21 Number 1 To recognize environmental hazards Number 2 22 To evaluate environmental hazards and Number 3 To 23 control those environmental hazards 24 Q. Now some mention is -- of this has been made 25 by Mr. Jones but did Mr. Bissonnette PACCAR's Asbestos Reporters GPS affiliate 214-347-4781 Paccar Inc. PMQ Rodney Curbo September 26 2023 364 1 industrial hygienist endeavor to determine whether 2 containing brakes and clutches were in fact a 3 hazard 4 MR JONES Lacks foundation calls for 5 speculation 6 A. Yes I believe that he did 7 Q. BY MR IRVIN And I'm going to hand you what 8 is -- I will mark as 54 Exhibit 54 marked 10 MR IRVIN Mr. Jones 11 MR JONES Yes sir Thank you 12 Q. BY MR IRVIN What is this document 13 A. This is the earliest document that we've found 14 where Mr. Bissonnette did some sampling and -- at 15 various PACCAR locations one of those being PACCAR 16 Truck Center in Edmonton Alberta which is where he did 17 sampling of three mechanics 18 At least two of those we know one was 19 doing brake repair work another clutch repair work 20 Q. And when you were speaking to Mr. Jones about 21 Mr. Bissonnette's original testing is this the document 22 that reflects that testing that you two spoke about 23 A. This is -- this -- yes 24 Q. Now the testing may have been ordered by 25 Mr. Bissonnette but who was it performed by Asbestos Reporters GPS affiliate 214-347-4781 Paccar Inc. PMQ Rodney Curbo September 26 2023 365 1 A. Looks like University of Washington School of 2 Public Health and Community Medicine 3 Q. An independent organization from PACCAR 4 A. Yes it appears to be 5 Q. Now because Mr. Jones asked you about a 6 passage in twenty -- Exhibit 23 that dealt with 7 chemicals is -- are chemicals studied there too 8 A. Yes they are Q. Let's go back to Exhibit 23 if you will 10 A. Okay 11 Q. To page 140 or PACCAR 107 12 Now what do you see on that page It 13 appears to me to be a flowchart But 14 A. It's like a flow chart that he discusses in his 15 presenta -- what appears to be his presentation 16 Q. And I guess that there's a -- explain the steps 17 in that because the jury can't see it right now 18 A. Right It says -- at the top it says The 19 Route to OSHA Compliance 20 The first thing is proposed occupational 21 health standards 22 Second is initial determination which I 23 believe he's referring to determining whether or not 24 there's a health concern 25 Second is -- or third is exposure level Asbestos Reporters GPS affiliate 214-347-4781 Paccar Inc. PMQ Rodney Curbo September 26 2023 366 1 which is doing some testing to determine whether or not 2 you're in compliance or whether or not there is a health 3 concern 4 And then if there is he goes to above 5 action level So if there is a concern then you 6 measure -- you continue to monitor the hazard 7 initiate controls train employees You could do 8 medical surveillance recordkeeping He lists out some possible steps that you 10 need -- may need to take 11 Q. If it's below the action level what's it say 12 A. If it's below the action level -- so in either 13 case if you take those measures or if it's below the 14 action level you're in compliance with what he's 15 referring to as the OSHA regulation 16 Q. And was this OSHA compliance method was it 17 aimed at employers 18 A. Yes 19 Q. And who was Mr. Carpenter's employer 20 A. Kraft Foods 21 MR JONES Lacks foundation calls for 22 speculation Move to strike for the same reasons 23 Q. BY MR IRVIN Mr. Jones talked to you a lot 24 about Kraft today 25 A. He did Asbestos Reporters GPS affiliate 214-347-4781 Paccar Inc. PMQ Rodney Curbo September 26 2023 367 1 Q. Now let's put Exhibit 23 in some context 2 related to these passages here 3 MR JONES I didn't ask him a single 4 question about what -- 5 THE WITNESS Inaudible 6 MR JONES -- Mr. Carpenter did not a 7 single one 8 MR IRVIN You asked him a lot about this exhibit 10 MR JONES Not one 11 MR IRVIN Oh All right Let's keep 12 marching on 13 MR JONES We can count them 14 Q. BY MR IRVIN Now you were shown by counsel 15 for Abex Exhibit 51 Do you recall this document 16 A. Yes 17 Q. What is Exhibit 51 18 A. It's a memo written in June 25 1984 to J.D. 19 Krumwiede from Mr. Bissonnette The subject is 20 Asbestos in truck manufacturing 21 Q. And it says -- let me read it and see if I'm -- 22 MR JONES What's the Bates number I'm 23 sorry 24 MR IRVIN Here 25 MR JONES Oh thank you This is 51 Asbestos Reporters GPS affiliate 214-347-4781 Paccar Inc. PMQ Rodney Curbo September 26 2023 368 1 MR IRVIN Yeah 2 Look how polite I am I had to find these 3 things on my computer and I've got you copies all 4 ready 5 THE WITNESS You might want to put 51 6 instead of 5 7 MR IRVIN Oh thank you 8 THE WITNESS Or else we're going to get confused 10 MR IRVIN Yes 11 MR JONES I bet your secretary is more 12 effective than mine 13 14 ... MR IRVIN You're your own secretary 15 MR JONES So he or she is definitely 16 more effective than mine 17 MR IRVIN That's not setting the bar 18 high but she's awesome I also tell people I don't 19 walk with a cane but I never get anywhere without my 20 staff 21 Q. BY MR IRVIN Now this is -- does the first 22 paragraph of this say Jerry you asked for information 23 regarding asbestos exposures in vehicle manufacturing 24 operations Several years ago an industrial 25 hygienist -- OSHA Industrial Hygienist Carl Mangold Asbestos Reporters GPS affiliate 214-347-4781 Paccar Inc. PMQ Rodney Curbo September 26 2023 369 1 suggested to me that there might be significant asbestos 2 exposures sic in brake assembly operations at PACCAR 3 truck plants Subsequently I monitored employees doing 4 work with brake assemblies And I found only 5 background levels of asbestos 6 A. Yes 7 Q. Now -- and is your sense that Mr. Bissonnette 8 kept looking at this even after the 1976 testing based on your review of the documents and this Exhibit 23 that 10 Mr. Jones mentioned to you that he kept looking at this 11 issue over time 12 A. I believe from the documents and the fact that 13 there were multiple samplings done and what he says 14 in this document indicates that he continued to look to 15 determine whether or not there was a -- the risk of a 16 health hazard associated with brakes on trucks 17 Q. And what'd he find 18 A. Best I can tell he found no asbestos 19 Q. And no health hazard 20 A. And no health hazards 21 Q. Now I want to hand you what was marked as 22 Exhibit 50 by counsel for Abex 23 MR JONES Thank you 24 Q. BY MR IRVIN What is this document 25 A. This is sampling that was -- this is a Asbestos Reporters GPS affiliate 214-347-4781 Paccar Inc. PMQ Rodney Curbo September 26 2023 370 1 letter from Scott Wetzel Services an outside entity 2 Q. Independent laboratory not associated with 3 PACCAR 4 A. Independent laboratory not associated with 5 PACCAR 6 Talking about the results of sampling 7 that they did for asbestos in the Axle Department which 8 would mean the Axle Department at -- within our assembly factory 10 Q. And does Mr. Wetzel mention what the OSHA 11 standard for concentrations of asbestos in the air is at 12 the time this was written 13 A. He says The results indicate fiber counts 14 well below the permissible eight TWA -- which I 15 believe is weighted average -- of two fibers per 16 cubic centimeter of air 17 Q. And turning to the next page what are 18 the -- the weighted averages there are they all 19 below ? 20 A. They're all well below 1 21 Q. I mean there's a dot and then a zero and 22 sometimes multiple zeros Is that what you see 23 A. Correct Yeah 24 The highest one is .014 25 Q. And then turn back to the front page Does he Asbestos Reporters GPS affiliate 214-347-4781 Paccar Inc. PMQ Rodney Curbo September 26 2023 371 1 say even that may not even be asbestos 2 A. Yes He says As you know the nature of the 3 analytical process is such that it is possible the 4 fibers counted are something other than asbestos 5 Q. What's the next sentence say 6 A. Reading Considering the tightly state 7 of asbestos in the brake linings I suspect that the 8 fibers are indeed some other material The lab concurs with this opinion 10 Q. And then what does the second paragraph 11 say ahead of Call me 12 A. It says Regardless of the exact identity of 13 the fibers the exposures are low and should not 14 compromise the health of your employees 15 Q. Now I'm going to hand you what counsel for 16 Abex marked as Exhibit 52 17 MR IRVIN Mr. Jones 18 MR JONES Thank you 19 Q. BY MR IRVIN What is this document 20 A. This is another document from another outside 21 or independent laboratory talking about monitoring 22 that was performed 23 Q. In the Axle Department 24 In the Axle Department yes 25 And will you read the last sentence of this Asbestos Reporters GPS affiliate 214-347-4781 Paccar Inc. PMQ Rodney Curbo September 26 2023 372 1 second paragraph for the ladies and gentlemen of the 2 jury 3 A. Reading Nevertheless based upon our 4 current understanding of the health effects and dose 5 response relationships between asbestos exposure and 6 asbestos disease the above results do not pose 7 any significant risk to health 8 Q. And like the testing in 1985 was this well below the regulatory standards 10 A. Yes It says that Both samples showed an 11 airborne fiber concentration of 0.005 fibers per CC of 12 air 13 MR JONES What's the complete -- 14 A. This result -- 15 MR JONES I'm sorry 16 A. This result is well below the current wishes 17 standard of two fibers per CC 18 MR JONES This is 52 19 MR IRVIN Correct 20 MR JONES Thank you 21 Q. BY MR IRVIN Now let's go back to 22 Exhibit 23 page 132 or PACCAR 100 23 Do you recall Mr. Jones speaking with you 24 about this particular page 25 A. Yes Asbestos Reporters GPS affiliate 214-347-4781 Paccar Inc. PMQ Rodney Curbo September 26 2023 373 1 Q. And he called it an asbestos warning but what 2 does that document call it 3 A. It's a Caution Sign and Label 4 Q. For employers to use in the workplace 5 MR JONES Object Lacks foundation 6 calls for speculation 7 Q. BY MR FLYNN Is that what this -- the next 8 page Mr. Jones references to you it's a Caution Sign and Label for employers 10 MR JONES Lacks foundation calls for 11 speculation 12 A. Yes My understanding of that section in 13 context with this document is that the caution signs and 14 labels they're talking about caution signs and labels 15 to be used in the workplace -- 16 MR JONES Not -- 17 A. -- for employees 18 MR JONES Move to strike as lacking 19 foundation and calling -- 20 A. An employee 21 MR JONES -- and speculative 22 Q. BY MR IRVIN And context is important in 23 documents like this isn't it 24 A. Yes it is 25 Q. Now you read Mr. Carpenter's deposition Asbestos Reporters GPS affiliate 214-347-4781 Paccar Inc. PMQ Rodney Curbo September 26 2023 374 1 testimony in preparation for your testimony here today 2 Did he mention any caution signs put up by his employer 3 Kraft 4 MR JONES Lacks foundation calls for 5 speculation no personal knowledge 6 A. I don't recall seeing anything mentioned in his 7 deposition regarding caution signs related to asbestos 8 Q. BY MR IRVIN And you -- Mr. Jones talked a little bit about this 10 But there's a -- PACCAR passed along an 11 asbestos warning in its trucks correct 12 MR JONES Lacks foundation calls for 13 speculation no personal knowledge 14 MR IRVIN Let me rephrase Let me 15 rephrase 16 Q. BY MR IRVIN Do you recall Mr. Jones speaking 17 with you about Exhibit 25 a Rockwell Master Q 18 Series 19 A. Yes 20 Is that correct 21 A. Yes 22 Q. And that document is dated what What year 23 A. It's 1978 24 Q. And are you familiar with this document 25 A. Yes I am Asbestos Reporters GPS affiliate 214-347-4781 Paccar Inc. PMQ Rodney Curbo September 26 2023 375 1 Q. Now what is the first year based on your 2 understanding that Mr. Carpenter worked at Kraft and 3 recalled new Kenworths 4 MR JONES Lack of foundation calls for 5 speculation no personal knowledge 6 A. I believe in his deposition he started at Kraft 7 in 1976 worked on the line and then moved into working 8 as a driver in the 1978 time frame Q. BY MR IRVIN And I'm going to unpack your 10 personal knowledge of this 11 But for trucks sold in 1978 was this 12 document included within those trucks 13 MR JONES Lacks foundation calls for 14 speculation no personal knowledge 15 A. As I understand it it would have been 16 Q. BY MR IRVIN Now you mentioned how you 17 understand that it was passed on You have personal 18 knowledge of this Will you explain this 19 MR JONES Lacks foundation calls for 20 speculation 21 A. I think as I testified earlier I worked as a 22 mechanic These -- this type of manuals were provided 23 in the trucks 24 Q. BY MR IRVIN And then when you started with 25 PACCAR did you see that activity with your own eyes in Asbestos Reporters GPS affiliate 214-347-4781 Paccar Inc. PMQ Rodney Curbo September 26 2023 376 1 the plant 2 A. Yes 3 There were racks in our Test Department 4 along each one of the work areas and the test mechanics 5 back there would look at the order which had the option 6 codes on it And based off of those option codes they 7 would select which manuals went in the truck 8 Q. Now there's been a lot of talk about manuals we -- with Mr. Jones 10 Will you explain -- he showed an operators 11 manual Could you explain to the ladies and gentlemen 12 what that is based on your experience as a mechanic and 13 at PACCAR and your knowledge having prepared for this 14 role 15 A. Sure 16 The operators manual is the manual that is 17 written for the operator of the truck It's general in 18 nature in that it talks about how to operate the truck 19 how to drive the truck 20 It also includes some level of maintenance 21 that needs to be done to the truck because as Mr. Jones 22 pointed out I think last week at the first part of the 23 deposition we had customers that were fleets 24 But we also had customers who were 25 operators and some of those operators did Asbestos Reporters GPS affiliate 214-347-4781 Paccar Inc. PMQ Rodney Curbo September 26 2023 377 1 their own maintenance So ti would provide a limited 2 amount of information regarding what maintenance needed 3 to be done on the truck 4 Q. Like what intervals 5 A. Like maintenance intervals yes 6 Q. Yeah Now like I might find that in my car 7 today It might say at amount of miles get the oil 8 changed that kind of thing A. I would bet that you would find that in your 10 car today 11 Q. Now there was also some mention of a custom 12 manual that was attached to the deposition Do you 13 recall that 14 A. Yes 15 Q. Now do you recall the year that that manual 16 was published Is it -- we can grab it but does 17 seven -- 1974 18 A. '74 I think yes 19 Q. Does that predate this Rockwell warning that 20 you've -- that's in the production that we just spoke 21 about and Mr. Jones spoke about with you 22 A. Yes it does 23 Q. Now explain what those manuals are as opposed 24 to something for someone who's driving the truck 25 What's that Asbestos Reporters GPS affiliate 214-347-4781 Paccar Inc. PMQ Rodney Curbo September 26 2023 378 1 A. Normally what would be provided would be the 2 Kenworth manual and additional manuals from our 3 component suppliers Those would be provided in the 4 truck 5 Q. Like but -- 6 MR IRVIN Pardon me Go ahead 7 MR JONES Move to strike as lacking 8 foundation lacking personal knowledge and speculative Q. BY MR IRVIN And you know this from your time 10 at Peterbilt New Mexico and also later with PACCAR 11 A. Yes 12 Q. Now this -- so when you say you've got the 13 Kenworth manual you've got the owner operator manual 14 Then you have these individual manuals like Exhibit 25 15 A. Yes 16 Q. And so contrast that with the custom manual 17 that Mr. Jones showed you Is that basically everything 18 put together in a nice special package for the owner or 19 operator or the owner of the truck 20 A. Yeah What the -- what that was the custom 21 manual for a given truck it takes those manuals and 22 puts it all together in a bound version for the 23 customer 24 Q. And then when we talk about a master 25 maintenance manual that a dealership might have how is Asbestos Reporters GPS affiliate 214-347-4781 Paccar Inc. PMQ Rodney Curbo September 26 2023 379 1 that different than the owner operator manual and the 2 custom manual 3 A. It includes all of the various -- it includes a 4 Peterbilt or Kenworth manual plus all of the various 5 component supplier manuals not just the specific one 6 for a given truck but for all variations of trucks that 7 we man -- that we built 8 Q. Okay And Mr. Jones talked to you a lot about you know PACCAR passing along Exhibit 25 the Rockwell 10 warning and then the Eaton warnings In your role 11 have you come to understand why PACCAR did that 12 MR JONES Lacks foundation calls for 13 speculation 14 A. Yeah We passed it along because we know 15 people are going to be doing maintenance on their 16 vehicles 17 We built custom trucks They vary broadly 18 in their content and the various components that were 19 assembled on those trucks And so that was a way to 20 ensure to the best of our ability to provide maintenance 21 information related to those trucks 22 Q. BY MR IRVIN And was -- did PACCAR make brake 23 assemblies or brake linings 24 A. We did not 25 Q. And did it endeavor to utilize brake assemblies Asbestos Reporters GPS affiliate 214-347-4781 Paccar Inc. PMQ Rodney Curbo September 26 2023 380 1 and brake linings from reputable industry experts 2 A. Yeah 3 I mean what I would say is we used 4 reputable component suppliers that were the best in the 5 industry People like Rockwell and Eaton and -- were 6 the best in the industry regarding brakes and 7 braking -- foundation brakes is what I'm trying to say 8 Q. And PACCAR believed based on your time there and things you've read to be part of this role that 10 those entities were experts in their particular 11 components 12 A. Absolutely 13 Q. Now go back to Exhibit 23 for me but 14 page 108 Do you recall Mr. Jones talking to you about 15 this presentation given by PACCAR's medical director 16 Mr. Johanson 17 A. Yes 18 Q. Do you recall that he gave -- he mentioned four 19 reasons that Mr. Johanson said there was an increasing 20 need for emphasis on industrial health 21 A. Yes 22 Q. And he included one of the reasons as workers 23 rights and compensations claims and things like that 24 A. Yes 25 Q. But how many reasons does Mr. -- Dr. Johanson Asbestos Reporters GPS affiliate 214-347-4781 Paccar Inc. PMQ Rodney Curbo September 26 2023 381 1 give there 2 A. He gives five 3 Q. Tell us what the filth is 4 A. He says And 5 finally myself plant nurses 5 and the Company are all concerned with each workers 6 health 7 Q. You weren't asked to read that were you 8 A. No I was not MR JONES Object to the argumentative to 10 the previous one I don't remember if I did or didn't 11 Q. BY MR IRVIN Now in 23 do you recall 12 Mr. Jones going into detail about some studies that 13 dealt with asbestos disease 14 A. Yes 15 Q. And what was the profession of the individuals 16 referenced in those studies within Exhibit 23 17 Hand it to me and I'll -- 18 A. Yeah I'm -- 19 Q. -- find the page It's further forward 20 A. You're talking about Mr. Johanson or you 21 talking -- 22 Q. No. 23 A. Oh 24 Q. I'm talking about me -- 25 A. Sorry Asbestos Reporters GPS affiliate 214-347-4781 Paccar Inc. PMQ Rodney Curbo September 26 2023 382 1 Q. -- the presentation on exposure limits and 2 they give the examples of asbestos exposure limits and 3 studies there 4 A. Yeah I think that's the presentation by Peter 5 Breysse 6 Q. Yes 7 A. And he was from the University of Washington 8 Q. And what is -- what's the profession of the individuals referenced in those studies about the 10 incidents of disease 11 A. I think where Mr. Jones was talking about the 12 difference -- occurrences expected versus actual that 13 was related to -- I guess the term that I would use is 14 insulators people who are working with insulation 15 Q. And in fact insulation union members 16 A. Yes 17 Q. Okay Now did you see anything in 18 Mr. Carpenter's deposition about him being a career 19 insulator 20 A. No. 21 MR JONES Lacks foundation calls for 22 speculation no personal knowledge 23 A. No I did not 24 Q. BY MR IRVIN Now assume with me that 25 asbestos insulation can be crushed by hand Asbestos Reporters GPS affiliate 214-347-4781 Paccar Inc. PMQ Rodney Curbo September 26 2023 383 1 Based on your personal knowledge working 2 as a mechanic then working at PACCAR can you -- can 3 someone crush a brake lining by hand 4 MR JONES Lacks foundation call for 5 speculation compound argumentative 6 A. I'm not for sure anybody could do -- could 7 crush a brake lining by hand 8 Q. BY MR IRVIN Mr. -- A. Not one that was made properly anyway 10 Q. Not one on a PACCAR truck 11 A. No. 12 MR JONES Same objections 13 Q. BY MR IRVIN Do you recall Plaintiffs 14 counsel asking you a bunch of questions about secondhand 15 smoke -- 16 A. Yes 17 Q. -- when he was talking about this 18 Do you see any where in that -- those 19 studies where it mentions secondhand smoke 20 MR JONES I'm going to object to 21 argumentative and I think misstates the testimony H 22 don't think I ever asked about that 23 A. I think he was asking about smoking not 24 secondhand smoke 25 Q. BY MR IRVIN Okay But -- Asbestos Reporters GPS affiliate 214-347-4781 Paccar Inc. PMQ Rodney Curbo September 26 2023 384 1 MR JONES Counsel I think you're 2 putting a lot of questions in my mouth that I didn't 3 ask And we can go back to the transcript 4 MR IRVIN Yeah Well -- 5 MR JONES But if this is some sort of 6 tactic -- 7 MR IRVIN Well I think you inaudible 8 MR JONES -- I think it's frowned on in this great state of California 10 Q. BY MR IRVIN Let me ask you this -- 11 MR JONES I do like that you're so 12 fixated on me though It shows I've been effective 13 Go ahead 14 Q. BY MR IRVIN Well do you see anything in 15 that section about people who are exposed to secondhand 16 smoke 17 A. I don't recall there being anything about 18 secondhand smoke 19 Q. Let's go to what Plaintiffs counsel marked as 20 Exhibit 6 And my hope is that we would have -- oh 21 here we go 22 MR JONES ? 23 MR IRVIN Yep 24 I'm going to hand it to me 25 Q. BY MR IRVIN Do you recognize what Asbestos Reporters GPS affiliate 214-347-4781 Paccar Inc. PMQ Rodney Curbo September 26 2023 385 1 Plaintiffs counsel marked as Exhibit 6 an SAE paper 2 entitled Brake and Clutch Emissions Generated During 3 Vehicle Operations 4 A. Yes I do 5 Q. Do you recall he read to you a portion of this 6 that said chrysotile was a major constituent in 7 automotive friction materials 8 A. Yes Q. Did -- do you recall whether he asked you what 10 that paper actually concluded 11 A. He did not 12 Q. Now go to page 2 of the article and read the 13 sentence starting with Most of the asbestos 14 A. You talking about in the abstract or -- 15 Q. At the orange 16 A. Here it is Okay 17 Reading Most of the asbestos is heated 18 to temperatures high enough to cause chemical conversion 19 and is therefore trapped or emitted as olivine or 20 forsterite particles 21 Q. And do you recall what percentage of the brake 22 wear debris in this study turned out to be nonasbestos 23 A. In the abstract it specifically says on the 24 average more than 99.7 percent of the asbestos was 25 converted Asbestos Reporters GPS affiliate 214-347-4781 Paccar Inc. PMQ Rodney Curbo September 26 2023 386 1 Was converted away from asbestos to 2 presumably this olivine or forsterite 3 Q. And Mr. Jones asked you about several SAE 4 papers Do you recall that 5 A. Yes I do 6 MR IRVIN What number are we on now 7 THE REPORTER Should be 55 8 MR IRVIN I think you're right In my zeal I forgot 10 Exhibit 55 marked 11 MR JONES There's some numbered -- 12 MR IRVIN No. We ran out of those 13 MR JONES -- inaudible because 14 of -- yeah 15 Q. BY MR IRVIN I'm going to hand you what I've 16 marked as Exhibit 55 17 What is that document 18 A. This is a SAE paper -- 19 MR JONES Actually lacks foundation 20 calls for speculation 21 A. This is an SAE paper that was found within some 22 of the PACCAR documents It's entitled Asbestos 23 Emissions from Brake Dynamometer Tests 24 Q. Mr. Jones asked you about a ton of SAE papers 25 Did he mention this one that was in the production as Asbestos Reporters GPS affiliate 214-347-4781 Paccar Inc. PMQ Rodney Curbo September 26 2023 387 1 well 2 A. No he did not 3 Q. And is it a true and correct copy of this 4 document kept in the regular and ordinary course of 5 PACCAR's business 6 A. Yes it appears to be 7 Q. And Mr. Jones mentioned that PACCAR had various 8 employees over time that were SAE members What is the SA telling its -- SAE telling 10 its members here in 1973 11 A. This particular test this presentation was 12 based off of some testing done by the scientific 13 research staff at Ford Motor Company where they placed 14 containing brakes on a dynamometer gathered up 15 the brake dust and they determined that 99.98 percent 16 of the dust was not asbestos 17 Q. And these two papers the prior exhibit and 18 this exhibit 55 they're talking about brake dust being 19 over 99 percent nonasbestos Is that your read of these 20 two papers 21 A. That's how I interpret these papers yes 22 Q. All right You can set that down sir 23 Let me back up a little bit 24 What have you done to prepare for your 25 testimony here today your role as a Person Most Asbestos Reporters GPS affiliate 214-347-4781 Paccar Inc. PMQ Rodney Curbo September 26 2023 388 1 Qualified for PACCAR and to answer Mr. Jones's 2 questions and speak to the jury in this case 3 A. Well I think specifically for this case I 4 reviewed several depositions specifically 5 Mr. Carpenter's deposition and then some of my previous 6 depositions 7 I reviewed all of the documents that we 8 presented I went through all of the Final Chassis Bills of Material and summarized the information best I 10 could what I understood that Mr. Jones was asking for in 11 the deposition notice 12 Additionally over time we've done 13 multiple document searches based off of other cases and 14 questions that get asked in interrogatories or requests 15 for production of documents 16 Also talked with hundreds of different 17 people to try and understand what we believe that the 18 documents were saying to understand the context of the 19 documents if you will 20 And 21 Q. And Mr. Jones mentioned what I believe is 22 Exhibit 4 your testimony in the Morrison case several 23 times 24 A. Yes 25 Q. Was that the first time that you served as Asbestos Reporters GPS affiliate 214-347-4781 Paccar Inc. PMQ Rodney Curbo September 26 2023 389 1 PACCAR's Person Most Qualified regarding all issues 2 A. I believe that there was a deposition prior to 3 that which was related specifically to radiator gaskets 4 and whether or not they included -- or the radiator 5 gaskets that we had used whether or not they had 6 asbestos in them 7 And then the Morrison was -- deposition I 8 believe was the second deposition that I gave which would have been the first general information regarding 10 asbestos at PACCAR 11 Q. And after the Morrison deposition concluded 12 did you stop searching for information and investigating 13 the issues that come up in cases like these 14 A. No. We -- we're continually looking for 15 documents 16 Q. And Mr. Jones mentioned this but PACCAR'S 17 produced more documents today than it did in Morrison 18 Why is that 19 A. Because we've found additional documents as 20 we've been searching for them 21 Q. And does PACCAR have a document retention 22 policy 23 A. We do 24 Q. Why does a company like PACCAR have a document 25 retention policy Asbestos Reporters GPS affiliate 214-347-4781 Paccar Inc. PMQ Rodney Curbo September 26 2023 390 1 A. Probably the easiest way to explain it is you 2 know whenever I go to the store I have a -- I get 3 receipt And I have to decide whether or not I'm going 4 to keep that receipt 5 If I keep all of those receipts my attic 6 is going to get full fairly quickly And a lot of those 7 receipts are not necessarily needed They're not needed 8 for tax purposes They're not needed for my own personal business 10 Well it's the same way with a corporation 11 or a business That are -- some documents are needed 12 for only a limited time And after that they're not 13 needed 14 Some documents are source documents for 15 other documents which might be kept which is the case 16 with the Final Chassis Billing Material 17 Q. And through your investigation over the years 18 and talking to people have you figured out new and 19 different places where there might be documents and gone 20 there and looked 21 A. Yes 22 Q. And documents that might be discarded under a 23 retention policy have you had some success finding 24 those on occasion 25 A. Yes we have Asbestos Reporters GPS affiliate 214-347-4781 Paccar Inc. PMQ Rodney Curbo September 26 2023 391 1 Q. And when PACCAR has been remodeling or changing 2 their offices do people call you and say Hey I've got 3 this file cabinet for example 4 Could you talk to us a little bit about 5 those experiences 6 A. I mean there's been multiple times over the 7 years when say there was an office reorganization 8 And say Hey we need -- we want to get rid of some of these file cabinets 10 And I would personally go look at files 11 within those cabinets and determine whether or not it 12 was asbestos and should be retained 13 Q. And if you got a interesting or strange or new 14 question in a case would you go investigate that as 15 like I'll say a targeted investigation 16 A. Correct Yeah 17 We -- there's -- oftentimes we get asked 18 a question either that we don't recall being asked or 19 it's asked in a little bit different way And it makes 20 us go -- so first of all if we haven't been asked 21 we're going to go look 22 If it's been asked but maybe in a little 23 different way sometimes it makes us go you know we 24 didn't look over here the last time -- or the times that 25 we've done these searches Maybe we need to go look Asbestos Reporters GPS affiliate 214-347-4781 Paccar Inc. PMQ Rodney Curbo September 26 2023 392 1 here because we looked over here 2 And so we might -- the other thing is we 3 go talk to people We ask people Do you know anything 4 about -- do you know anything about -- one of the things 5 we ask people a lot Do you know anything about PACCAR 6 Peterbilt or Kenworth ever providing 7 branded -- Peterbilt- or Kenworth brakes or did 8 we ever repackage a brake so that they were Peterbilt or Kenworth 10 We continue to ask that question 11 Q. And what's the answer you've gotten 12 A. It's always consistently been No we did not 13 do that 14 Q. Has PACCAR done broader document sweeps over 15 the years 16 A. Yes 17 Q. When was the last one 18 A. The last one was 2021-22 time frame 19 Q. And Mr. Jones showed you some documents 20 produced by Abex in this case 21 Overall -- well how many boxes are we 22 talking about of people just going and searching and 23 searching in new places and going and looking and 24 looking 25 A. Well maybe to put it in perspective I was Asbestos Reporters GPS affiliate 214-347-4781 Paccar Inc. PMQ Rodney Curbo September 26 2023 393 1 involved in the 2021-22 document search My 2 recollection there were something like 14 people 3 involved in reviewing documents and I believe we pulled 4 somebody like 5- or 600 boxes 5 Q. And looked through those for responsive 6 A. Looked through those for response documents 7 That's where some of the -- that why 8 our -- one of the reasons our production has grown because we did find responsive documents 10 Q. When PACCAR first got sued in 1997-1998 in an 11 asbestos case did it just say We found everything 12 we're going to find and we'll stop looking 13 A. No. 14 My -- best I understand is we did 15 document search in that '97 time frame I believe there 16 was one done around 2002 I think around 2005 2010 17 2016 2021 18 Q. And -- 19 A. Those are the major document searches Some of 20 those were broad but somewhat limited But then I 21 would say we've probably done hundreds of very 22 specific -- information 23 searches 24 Q. And when it came to the documents Mr. Jones 25 showed you from Abex and he talked about you know the Asbestos Reporters GPS affiliate 214-347-4781 Paccar Inc. PMQ Rodney Curbo September 26 2023 394 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 10 11 12 13 14 15 6,700 pages did any of these document sweeps locate those documents A. I've never seen those documents before Q. And were you personally involved in the 2021-2022 document sweep A. I was In fact I was -- went to PACCAR Parts Department looked at documents there talked to multiple people there during that visit -- Q. Let me back up A. -- about documents and about history Q. You got a lot of questions about -- from Mr. Jones about Abex replacement brakes When you read Mr. Carpenter's deposition was he familiar with Abex 16 MR JONES Lacks foundation calls for 17 speculation no personal knowledge 18 A. I think as I testified earlier my 19 recollection of his deposition is he was not familiar 20 with the Abex name or with any of Abex products 21 I think in the deposition he specifically 22 asked for Pneumo Abex and he was not familiar with 23 them 24 Q. BY MR IRVIN And did he testify or know 25 where Kraft purchased its replacement parts Asbestos Reporters GPS affiliate 214-347-4781 Paccar Inc. PMQ Rodney Curbo September 26 2023 395 1 MR JONES Lacks foundation calls for 2 speculation no personal knowledge 3 A. My personal recollection of his deposition is 4 that he consistently said he did not know where Kraft 5 purchased replacement parts 6 Q. BY MR IRVIN And Mr. Jones 7 mentioned -- attached one of the documents that had a 8 list of Kenworth dealerships Do you recall that A. Yes 10 Q. How are those dealerships if at all related 11 to Kenworth and its business model 12 A. Well they're -- 13 MR JONES Lacks foundation calls for 14 speculation 15 A. Well they're -- Peterbilt or Kenworth 16 dealerships are independently and -operated bases 17 Q. BY MR IRVIN And you personally worked at an 18 independently and operated Peterbilt dealership 19 A. I did 20 Q. Now -- and do you recall what brand of brakes 21 Mr. Carpenter said he might have seen removed from 22 Kenworth trucks at Kraft 23 MR JONES Lacks foundation calls for 24 speculation no personal knowledge 25 A. My recollection is he testified that he Asbestos Reporters GPS affiliate 214-347-4781 Paccar Inc. PMQ Rodney Curbo September 26 2023 396 1 believed Bendix brakes were removed from the Kenworth 2 trucks 3 Q. BY MR IRVIN And in all your review of those 4 billed sheets that Mr. Jones asked you about did you 5 see any indication of as -- Bendix brake assemblies 6 being OEM equipment on those trucks 7 A. No they were not 8 Q. Now Mr. Jones talked to you a lot about the formula I guess of -- the statement that PACCAR says 10 it doesn't know the chemical composition of the brakes 11 that it put on it trucks 12 A. That's correct 13 Q. Do you have a copy of those -- that exhibit 14 that -- Exhibit ? 15 A. It may be in here I don't know 16 Q. Yeah I think it's in here 17 MR JONES We don't have the exhibits 18 from the first day 19 MR IRVIN I know But I think I gave 20 you my version and you asked him about them 21 MR JONES Which one was it 22 THE WITNESS I think -- 23 MR IRVIN Exhibit 9 24 THE WITNESS There it is 25 MR IRVIN There we go Asbestos Reporters GPS affiliate 214-347-4781 Paccar Inc. PMQ Rodney Curbo September 26 2023 397 1 2 3 4 responses 5 6 you 7 8 MR JONES What was it MR IRVIN It was -- MR JONES Oh it was the interrogatory MR IRVIN I'm going to hand that back to THE WITNESS Okay MR JONES What year are those MR IRVIN Been 2020 10 MR JONES Oh this case 11 MR IRVIN Yes 12 MR JONES Yeah 13 Q. BY MR IRVIN And he asked you about 14 Interrogatory Number 13 on page 29. Do you recall that 15 A. Yes 16 Q. And one thing that didn't get touched by 17 Mr. Jones what's the actual question on Interrogatory 18 No. 13 19 MR JONES Object to argumentative and 20 compound 21 A. Interrogatory 13 says Have you ever engaged 22 in any of the activities listed below with regard to an 23 containing product alleged to be at issue in 24 this action If so then state the inclusive dates of 25 such activity Asbestos Reporters GPS affiliate 214-347-4781 Paccar Inc. PMQ Rodney Curbo September 26 2023 398 1 Q. BY MR IRVIN And so it's asking the start and 2 end date in other words 3 A. That's how I understand it 4 Q. Now the objection and answer starts on H 5 believe line 12 the next page 6 A. Correct 10 I think 7 Q. 10 8 And I believe Mr. Jones read to you the highlighted there the first paragraph Do you recall 10 that 11 A. I believe so yes 12 Q. And then I believe he skipped to the next page 13 and read you the statement about -- or a few pages ago 14 which states about the -- not knowing the chemical 15 composition of the brakes Do you recall that 16 A. Well I think that's -- yeah 17 So this says These products were at all 18 times manufactured by and obtained from various 19 component parts suppliers that are unrelated to PACCAR 20 PACCAR did not specify the use of asbestos in these 21 brakes clutches and engine gaskets and did not know 22 the exact formulation or chemical composition of the 23 components manufactured by unrelated entities 24 Q. And he talked to you a lot about you 25 know -- he just talked to you about that provision when Asbestos Reporters GPS affiliate 214-347-4781 Paccar Inc. PMQ Rodney Curbo September 26 2023 399 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 he was talking about when did PACCAR's trucks first contain or utilize containing brakes But what does PACCAR in front of that on the previous page that I've marked in orange MR JONES Object to hearsay Q. BY MR IRVIN It's a few pages before in the orange Do you see that A. I think you -- you talking -- Q. Well -- A. I think you're referring to -- Q. Yes A. -- the next paragraph where it says -- Q. Yes A. -- PACCAR is unable to accurately state when component part manufacturers first started using asbestos in component parts Q. And so before it ever says We don't know the chemical composition PACCAR says it doesn't know the start date 20 A. I think right after that we say we don't know 21 the start date but we know the end date 22 Q. Now does that interrogatory say When is the 23 first document you have that references asbestos in 24 brakes 25 MR JONES Object to argumentative Asbestos Reporters GPS affiliate 214-347-4781 Paccar Inc. PMQ Rodney Curbo September 26 2023 400 1 A. Now again the question was if so then -- if 2 we were engaged in any of those activities then state 3 the inclusive dates of such activity 4 Q. BY MR IRVIN And so you -- and he spoke to 5 you a lot about the Abex brochure 6 Does that tell us when PACCAR first 7 included or utilized containing brakes in a 8 truck that brochure from Abex -- or -- A. Oh 10 Q. -- American Brakeblok 11 A. I'm sorry Yeah 12 The -- no it does not 13 Q. Now did PACCAR nevertheless produce that 14 document to Mr. Jones in this case 15 MR JONES Argumentative Not relevant 16 But go ahead 17 A. Okay Can you ask the question 18 Sure 19 Was that American Brakeblok brochure 20 produced to Mr. Jones in this case by PACCAR 21 A. Yes -- 22 MR JONES Lack foundation calls for 23 speculation 24 A. Yes it was 25 Q. BY MR IRVIN Has a Bates number and Asbestos Reporters GPS affiliate 214-347-4781 Paccar Inc. PMQ Rodney Curbo September 26 2023 401 1 everything on it 2 A. Yes it does 3 Q. Now I want to talk to you a little bit about 4 the efforts -- PACCAR's efforts to substitute 5 containing brakes from nonasbestos 6 brakes When did that begin 7 A. We believe it initially began in 1979 when 8 we -- we have a purchase order from Engineering where they were trying -- they were ordering the first 10 nonasbestos linings to put on a truck 11 Q. Mr. Jones touched on this but let's unpack it 12 a little bit 13 Why not just take that first set of brakes 14 that we had and slap them on a big rig and off it goes 15 A. Because they don't always work safely 16 Q. And was it a quick process to substitute 17 containing brakes with nonasbestos 18 brakes 19 A. No it was not 20 Q. All right Well what are some of the types of 21 testing that PACCAR had to perform to make sure its 22 trucks actually stopped on the highway 23 A. I think the first thing -- and Mr. Jones 24 referred to this -- is each one of the entities along 25 the process had some work to do And so the lining Asbestos Reporters GPS affiliate 214-347-4781 Paccar Inc. PMQ Rodney Curbo September 26 2023 402 1 manufacturers had to do their testing 2 And then once they were able to develop a 3 lining which they believed was adequate they passed 4 along to the brake component manufacturers so the 5 Rockwells and Eatons And they did their testing which 6 was the dynamometer testing We referred to the SAE 7 test where they used a dynamometer 8 And then once it passed the dynamometer testing then we would put it on a truck and do vehicle 10 testing to ensure that it would safely stop the truck 11 if it would last it wouldn't come apart for instance 12 Q. Mr. Jones talked to you a little bit about Mack 13 having a standard asbestos in the 19 -- early 14 1980s Do you recall that 15 A. Yes 16 Q. Now based on documents what has 17 PACCAR -- what did they learn about Mack's conversion to 18 nonasbestos and whether that was successful or not 19 A. I think it's one of the documents that he 20 provided Let me look here 21 It -- essentially somebody was going and 22 asking questions about nonasbestos brakes I believe it 23 was Gary Loggins And what he found is that I believe 24 according to Randy -- let's see if that's the right one 25 According to yeah Randy Petras at Asbestos Reporters GPS affiliate 214-347-4781 Paccar Inc. PMQ Rodney Curbo September 26 2023 403 1 Rockwell it appears that the question that was asked 2 is Which OEMs are now using new sic asbestos as an 3 option or standard 4 Q. Nonasbestos 5 A. That's correct nonasbestos 6 It says Mack is using NMK And it 7 says that they've improved the lamination but they're 8 not at a hundred percent There's another document in here 10 again -- no from Dave Robertson where he asks those 11 questions that indicates that NAB now having problems 12 with linings or laminating They won't stay on the 13 shoe Mack has signed off on all warranty costs for 14 lamination with Rockwell 15 Which to me indicates they were willing 16 to take the risk of the brakes failing and pay the 17 warranty cost for that and would -- and Rockwell was not 18 covering the warranty on it 19 Q. What is the delaminating 20 You just mentioned that based on your 21 personal experience and your work with PACCAR during 22 this time period 23 A. Lamination I mean would be -- delaminating 24 would be like if this were a brake block or a brake 25 shoe part of it's pulling off It's pulling off the Asbestos Reporters GPS affiliate 214-347-4781 Paccar Inc. PMQ Rodney Curbo September 26 2023 404 1 shoe And that's what it indicates in the notes here 2 Q. And is -- was delaminating brakes acceptable 3 and possible brake failure acceptable to PACCAR at this 4 time 5 A. No. 6 Q. Now Mr. Jones showed you some documents 7 regarding PACCAR engineers having concerns about having 8 to do design changes to the truck for this change to nonasbestos Do you recall that 10 A. I do 11 Q. How did it turn out in the end about whether or 12 not there had to be design changes 13 A. Best I can tell for the majority of trucks 14 ultimately design changes weren't required except for 15 changing the linings 16 The design changes really came in in some 17 of the volume classification 18 trucks For the majority of the trucks it doesn't 19 appear that there were any design changes required 20 MR JONES Move to strike as lacking 21 foundation and speculative 22 Q. BY MR IRVIN And do you know that from the 23 documents 24 A. Specifically from the EPCs that were written 25 and how they were written It doesn't indicate any Asbestos Reporters GPS affiliate 214-347-4781 Paccar Inc. PMQ Rodney Curbo September 26 2023 405 1 additional design changes aside from changing the brake 2 part numbers because of the brake shoes 3 Q. And it's just a sound bite to say there's 4 concerns about design change But then in fact the 5 rest of the story is there didn't need to be design 6 changes unless it was a very severe duty brake 7 application 8 MR JONES Object to argumentative and compound 10 A. Well what I would say is if you read through 11 all of the documents as you read through them what 12 you'll see is those various concerns being addressed 13 through testing and through -- basically through 14 testing 15 Q. BY MR IRVIN Mr. Jones showed you some 16 documents about PACCAR having difficulties related to a 17 wedge brake lining called 551D Do you recall that 18 A. Yes 19 Q. And possible use of some existing supplies 20 related to those 21 A. Correct 22 Q. Now of the Final Bill of Chassis Materials 23 that you reviewed in this case for trucks sold to Kraft 24 did you see any indication that wedge brakes the 25 551D brakes were used on those trucks Asbestos Reporters GPS affiliate 214-347-4781 Paccar Inc. PMQ Rodney Curbo September 26 2023 406 1 A. I didn't see any indication that they would be 2 But the 551D was for a higher weight 3 rating than what these trucks were 4 Q. And a higher weight rating than most trucks 5 that we see on the highway experience 6 A. Correct 7 Q. And for the vast majority of trucks sold by 8 Peterbilt and Kenworth during this time period when you were at PACCAR were wedge brakes installed on those 10 trucks 11 A. Wedge brakes was a volume option 12 Q. Now do you recall when -- you got a lot of 13 questions about -- clutch substitution questions 14 When did PACCAR move from -- to 15 ceramic clutches or nonasbestos clutches 16 A. Well nonasbestos clutches was 1982 '83 time 17 frame 18 Q. And in fact you saw some references to trucks 19 sold before then in these billed sheets for Kraft that 20 there was -- there's some trucks that utilized ceramic 21 or nonasbestos clutches 22 A. That's correct Actually I think the majority 23 of them had ceramic clutches 24 Q. Now Mr. Jones touched on this and I want to 25 add a little bit to it Asbestos Reporters GPS affiliate 214-347-4781 Paccar Inc. PMQ Rodney Curbo September 26 2023 407 1 But PACCAR makes custom trucks What does 2 that mean Unpack that a little bit for the jury The 3 discussion was brief 4 A. Well I guess what I would say is a commercial 5 truck is really a tool It's not like our cars It's a 6 tool And every company has specific requirements based 7 off -- so just think about like Kraft based off of where 8 they run the trucks what weights they're hauling what length of trailers they may have those types of things 10 There's also differences in what people 11 prefer what -- as far as maintenance parts replacement 12 parts Who do they have close to them that can supply a 13 given brand of air filter 14 Q. Right 15 A. So they might specify a specific air filter 16 because of ease of obtaining the replacement part 17 There's a lot of different ways that -- or 18 reasons that a customer will ask for specific components 19 on its truck And they're the experts in what they're 20 using those trucks for and how they're using them 21 And Kraft was -- had enough expertise 22 They had their own mechanics who were maintaining their 23 trucks 24 So what I would say is it really 25 depend -- how the truck is configured depends on the Asbestos Reporters GPS affiliate 214-347-4781 Paccar Inc. PMQ Rodney Curbo September 26 2023 408 1 customer and what their needs are 2 We have some expertise in -- that we've 3 acquired over the years in certain applications and what 4 might work better for a customer and what might not A 5 lot of times the customer knows better than we do 6 because they've lived it they've experienced it and 7 they specify what they want for their -- essentially 8 their tool -- MR JONES Move -- 10 A. -- in the business 11 MR JONES Move to strike the 12 nonresponsive portions and also those lacking foundation 13 and those that are speculative and those where he lacks 14 personal knowledge 15 Q. BY MR IRVIN And this was the case both when 16 you worked at Peterbilt in New Mexico and then later at 17 PACCAR 18 MR JONES Same objections 19 A. It's the case whenever I worked in New Mexico 20 Peterbilt Also the case when I worked at PACCAR 21 Been involved in meetings with customers 22 reviewing specs looking at those special items that 23 they want for their particular situation 24 Q. BY MR IRVIN Now you mentioned -- Mr. Jones 25 asked you this about Cummins engines being in the trucks Asbestos Reporters GPS affiliate 214-347-4781 Paccar Inc. PMQ Rodney Curbo September 26 2023 409 1 here in the Final Bill of Chassis Materials Do you 2 recall that 3 A. Yes 4 Q. Did PACCAR make Cummins engines 5 A. No. 6 Q. Did it warranty Cummins engines 7 A. No. 8 Q. Did it simply drop those engines into the truck 10 A. A little more than simply but yes 11 Q. Yes It was the history major in me 12 But -- and did PACCAR have inputs on the 13 specific components with -- that Cummins might choose to 14 put on the engine block for example 15 A. No. 16 Q. If I drove a Kenworth off the lot and a mile 17 down the road the engine failed could I take it back to 18 PACCAR and have it serviced -- or the Peterbilt or 19 Kenworth dealership 20 A. During this time frame the majority of the 21 time -- and I would say overwhelming majority of the 22 time you would not because Kenworth or Peterbilt dealer 23 was not a engine distributor And so you would take it 24 to the Cummins shop or Caterpillar shop if you had a 25 Caterpillar or Detroit shop Asbestos Reporters GPS affiliate 214-347-4781 Paccar Inc. PMQ Rodney Curbo September 26 2023 410 1 I worked for a Detroit distributor ... 2 MR JONES Move to strike -- 3 MR JACKSON Move to strike Lacking in 4 foundation Calls for speculation 5 MR JONES Join 6 Q. BY MR IRVIN And you -- let me unpack this 7 You worked for a Detroit Diesel 8 distributor A. I did 10 Q. And then a Peterbilt dealer 11 A. Yes I did 12 Q. And this was the case when you worked at those 13 places 14 A. It was 15 In fact New Mexico Peterbilt was right 16 across the street from Sandia Detroit Diesel which was 17 the distributor I worked for just not in Albuquerque 18 It was another branch of Sandia Detroit 19 Q. And was this the case when you worked at 20 Peterbilt in the 1980s 21 A. Yes 22 Over time dealers began to work to become 23 approved by the engine manufacturers as distributors 24 where they could work on engines And so that's -- it's 25 a bit -- transition that's gone on over time But early Asbestos Reporters GPS affiliate 214-347-4781 Paccar Inc. PMQ Rodney Curbo September 26 2023 411 1 on in the 70s and 80s 2 During this time frame that was not 3 generally the case 4 Q. I want to unpack a few terms that counsel with 5 Rockwell mentioned based on your personal experience 6 whether it be as a heavy truck mechanic or at PACCAR 7 MR JONES About how much more do you 8 have MR IRVIN Not much 10 Q. BY MR IRVIN You mentioned the word axle 11 What's an axle 12 A. Well an axle is -- a front axle is the -- it's 13 the component on the front of the truck that has the 14 wheels the front wheels on it 15 And the rear axle has the rear wheels on 16 it And it has gears in it to drive the wheels on the 17 rear 18 Q. And what's a brake assembly 19 A. So the brake assembly is -- I'm going to throw 20 in some terms we've not talked about 21 A brake spider is kind of the framework or 22 foundation that all the other brake components are 23 attached to And so that assembly includes the spider 24 the brake shoes cam -- for an cam brake would include 25 the cam includes the anchor pins the springs that hold Asbestos Reporters GPS affiliate 214-347-4781 Paccar Inc. PMQ Rodney Curbo September 26 2023 412 1 every -- all the shoes onto that assembly 2 Q. And last question on this is What's a brake 3 shoe 4 A. A brake shoe is either a cat -- well it's a 5 metal piece that's curved that has the friction lining 6 attached to the top of that curved plate 7 Q. And so an undressed axle would mean just taking 8 the brake assembly and putting it on the axle A. That's correct 10 Q. Now I want to -- the last area I want to ask 11 you about is based on your personal knowledge of being a 12 mechanic at the same time that -- heavy truck mechanic 13 at the same time these Kraft trucks were sold and worked 14 on at Kraft 15 You know Mr. Carpenter mentioned that 16 mechanics would perform routine maintenance on some of 17 the Kenworths that came in 18 Did you have personal knowledge from your 19 work as a heavy truck mechanic in the seven -- late 20 70s early 80s about what's routine maintenance 21 MR JONES Lacks foundation calls for 22 speculation 23 A. Let's say in general routine maintenance is 24 going to be oil changes filter changes Might include 25 things like checking the joints if one of them Asbestos Reporters GPS affiliate 214-347-4781 Paccar Inc. PMQ Rodney Curbo September 26 2023 413 1 is -- or replacing the joint on the drive shaft 2 Would include things like brake jobs 3 Would include things like recharging the 4 conditioner Might include flushing the cooling 5 system There's -- 6 Q. Changing tires 7 A. Changing tires 8 Q. Oil changes A. You know one of the things that we've not 10 talked about is that quite often we were changing wheel 11 seals 12 Wheel seals -- when wheel seals leak if 13 you're driving around -- down the freeway and you see a 14 truck and it's got -- looks like oil has been splattered 15 on the wheel and it's spreading out that's typically a 16 wheel seal 17 But that -- those wheel seals also leak on 18 the brake And so if that's not addressed quickly the 19 brake -- the brake lining the friction lining will 20 become saturated with oil and has to be replaced And 21 it might be well before the brakes wear out 22 Q. And so basically your experience of being a 23 mechanic it's not just brake changes clutch changes 24 and engine overhauls Is that fair 25 A. No it's not Asbestos Reporters GPS affiliate 214-347-4781 Paccar Inc. PMQ Rodney Curbo September 26 2023 414 1 Q. Now let me ask you this question Based on 2 your experience as a heavy truck mechanic in this same 3 very time at issue in this case if a truck looks new 4 is it an accurate assumption to think that the -- a 5 brake replacement being done on that truck is the very 6 first brake replacement 7 MR JONES Lacks foundation calls for 8 speculation A. No. Just because it looks new doesn't mean the 10 brakes haven't been replaced 11 Q. BY MR IRVIN For issues like the wheel seal 12 A. For instance might have a wheel seal issue 13 Q. All right Now assumingly Mr. Carpenter 14 talked about brake adjustments 15 Can you tell me how you would adjust a 16 brake on -- based on your personal experience as a 17 mechanic at the time and in your time at PACCAR how 18 would you adjust a brake on these 100 trucks here in 19 the Final Bill of Chassis Materials 20 MR JONES Lacks foundation calls for 21 speculation 22 A. I don't recall if these had auto slack 23 adjusters It's essentially the same but there's a 24 little -- little minor differences if it has automatic 25 slacks Asbestos Reporters GPS affiliate 214-347-4781 Paccar Inc. PMQ Rodney Curbo September 26 2023 415 1 But essentially there's -- actually we 2 have a document in our production where our Tech Center 3 won't through and looked at I think three or four 4 different recommended ways to adjust brakes to determine 5 which way was best but I'll just pick one of them 6 essentially -- they're fairly similar 7 And that is is you would either adjust 8 the -- adjusting on the slack adjuster which is located inboard of the brakes underneath the axle -- or around 10 the axle might be behind it And you would adjust that 11 S -- that slack adjuster so that it adjusts cam which 12 then adjusts where the brakes are relative to the drum 13 And you can either do that by measuring 14 the gap between the drum and the lining or jacking the 15 truck up and turning the wheel until it stops and then 16 backing off like a quarter- or turn depending on 17 what the specification is 18 Another way was to tap on the drum with a 19 hammer and tighten up the brake until the -- you heard a 20 thud more of a thud with -- and then backing the brake 21 off until it rang as opposed to thud ... 22 Q. BY MR IRVIN Do you have -- based on your 23 personal experience in mechanics do you have to take 24 the wheels off and use compressed air when you're 25 adjusting the brakes Asbestos Reporters GPS affiliate 214-347-4781 Paccar Inc. PMQ Rodney Curbo September 26 2023 416 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 10 A. No. Q. And -- A. You -- Q. Why wouldn't you do that A. Well you wouldn't do -- you wouldn't take the wheels off I mean -- well I was thinking take the wheels off but I mean take the drum off If you take the drum off you got to -- you have to do -- readjust the brakes anyway But there's no need to do that 11 All you have to do is determine which 12 method you're going to use to adjust the brakes and you 13 adjust them using the adjusting nut on the slack 14 adjuster 15 Q. Now last question of you as -- your mechanic 16 experience in the 70s and early 80s 17 If someone was in -- three to four feet 18 from you when you're doing your mechanic work does that 19 pose a practical problem 20 MR JONES Lacks foundation calls for 21 speculation 22 A. I mean if somebody is within three or four 23 feet they're basically an length away and so 24 they're either looking over your shoulder -- as a 25 mechanic -- whenever I worked as a mechanic if somebody Asbestos Reporters GPS affiliate 214-347-4781 Paccar Inc. PMQ Rodney Curbo September 26 2023 417 1 was there and I was doing something immediately if 2 they're that close I have responsibility for their 3 safety So I'm not going to do anything that 4 might -- you know who knows what could happen You 5 never know That's why they're called accidents 6 But in general if somebody was that 7 close that would mean they were trying to get my 8 attention I would stop doing what I was doing And if they wanted to talk I would talk 10 Before I would continue on I would 11 somehow indicate that You need to -- you need 12 to -- it's time for me to go back to work 13 Q. BY MR IRVIN They'd be in between you and 14 your tool chest for example 15 A. They might be in the -- 16 MR JONES Lacks foundation calls for 17 speculation 18 A. It could make it difficult to get to tools 19 Inaudible) 20 Q. BY MR IRVIN Or you could drop something on 21 their toe something like that 22 A. It could 23 MR IRVIN That's all I've got 24 MR JONES So -- 25 MR IRVIN How long do you have and let's Asbestos Reporters GPS affiliate 214-347-4781 Paccar Inc. PMQ Rodney Curbo September 26 2023 418 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 10 11 see if we need to take a break THE VIDEOGRAPHER Counsel we are -- we have -- we are five minutes away from the hour mark and I will need to switch -- MR JONES Let's take a break THE VIDEOGRAPHER -- switch videos MR JONES Let's take a break MR IRVIN How long do you think you've got so I can tell my bride and not get in trouble THE VIDEOGRAPHER The time is 6:08 p.m. and we're off the record 12 Break was from 6:08 p.m. to 6:19 p.m. 13 THE VIDEOGRAPHER This is the beginning 14 of Media Unit Number 5. The time is 6:18 p.m. We are 15 now back on the record 16 Counsel you may proceed 17 FURTHER EXAMINATION 18 BY MR JONES 19 Q. Mr. Curbo can you please grab Exhibit 55 20 A. Sure 21 Q. This was the paper your counsel showed you in 22 the redirect Do you recall that 23 A. Yes 24 Q. And I believe the point was made that the wear 25 dust in a brake drum is less than one percent asbestos Asbestos Reporters GPS affiliate 214-347-4781 Paccar Inc. PMQ Rodney Curbo September 26 2023 419 1 A. That's correct 2 Q. Still says it's asbestos right 3 A. .02 percent 4 Q. Okay That's -- is not enough to hurt anybody 5 A. I don't know 6 MR IRVIN It -- beyond the scope Calls 7 for a medical opinion 8 Q. BY MR JONES Okay So -- okay And you understand that the people that 10 wrote this paper are the Ford Motor Company 11 A. Yes 12 Q. They've been defendants in cases that PACCAR 13 had been a defendant in 14 MR IRVIN Calls for speculation Beyond 15 the scope 16 A. Don't know 17 Q. BY MR JONES You don't know if -- 18 A. I don't know 19 Q. -- the Ford Motor Company has ever been sued in 20 asbestos litigation 21 MR IRVIN That's not what you asked 22 But beyond the scope Calls for 23 speculation 24 A. It wouldn't surprise me that they would but I 25 don't know Asbestos Reporters GPS affiliate 214-347-4781 Paccar Inc. PMQ Rodney Curbo September 26 2023 420 1 Q. BY MR JONES Okay And -- well certainly 2 Ford had asbestos brakes on their vehicles right 3 MR IRVIN Calls for speculation 4 A. Likely 5 Q. BY MR JONES Well based on this paper it's 6 a percent certainty isn't it 7 A. Well like -- I'll say likely they had asbestos 8 brakes in at least some of their vehicles yes Q. This paper on the front is stamped Library 10 A. It is 11 Q. Which would indicate it's in PACCAR's library 12 A. At some point in time 13 I don't believe it was found in the 14 library 15 Q. Okay And this is -- this paper is 50 years 16 old 17 Yes 18 More than 50 years old 19 And it says -- is that right more than 20 50 years 21 A. Yes 22 Q. And this paper is -- 23 A. 1973 24 Q. The paper's first sentence says Asbestos has 25 been a major constituent of automotive friction Asbestos Reporters GPS affiliate 214-347-4781 Paccar Inc. PMQ Rodney Curbo September 26 2023 421 1 materials for more than 50 years 2 Did I read that correctly 3 A. You did 4 I believe we talked about that last week 5 MR IRVIN Asked and answered 6 Q. BY MR JONES That goes back a hundred years 7 from today right 8 MR IRVIN Asked and answered A. Yes 10 Q. BY MR JONES Okay So according to this 11 document that was in PACCAR's library at some point in 12 time asbestos has been a major constituent in brakes 13 since 1923 or earlier true 14 A. According to this paper 15 Q. Okay And several other Society of Automotive 16 Engineer papers that we looked at last week indicated 17 that asbestos has been used in brakes for a very long 18 time true 19 A. I believe so 20 Q. Okay And I think you mentioned that though 21 PACCAR doesn't have -- doesn't manufacture brakes it has 22 employed brake engineers true 23 A. I don't think I ever used that terminology 24 Q. Foundation brake -- what was the title you 25 mentioned that had foundation brake in the title Asbestos Reporters GPS affiliate 214-347-4781 Paccar Inc. PMQ Rodney Curbo September 26 2023 422 1 A. I think what I was talking about I believe 2 Mr. Vanderlip who was group lead over the foundation 3 brake group 4 Q. Okay So they had a group of engineers that 5 was called the Foundation Brake Group right 6 A. That's correct 7 They weren't experts on foundation brakes 8 They were experts on integrating brakes into our chassis into our trucks 10 Q. They had a -- PACCAR had a group called the 11 Foundation Brake Group which is group of engineers that 12 were not experts in foundation brakes 13 A. That's correct 14 Q. Okay 15 A. So they weren't experts in designing the 16 foundation brakes So designing the shoes designing 17 all of that 18 They were -- they're experts in 19 integrating those brake assemblies into the trucks 20 selecting -- and they're the guys who are involved in 21 that transition doing -- with the Tech Center doing the 22 testing working with the experts from Eaton and 23 Rockwell doing the transition that type of work 24 Q. Now you were asked about Interrogatory 25 Number -- or Exhibit Number 9 which were the Asbestos Reporters GPS affiliate 214-347-4781 Paccar Inc. PMQ Rodney Curbo September 26 2023 423 1 interrogatory responses in this case 2 A. Yes 3 Q. And the -- we discussed the portion where 4 PACCAR says it didn't know the chemical composition of 5 the brakes or whatever I'm paraphrasing 6 A. Correct 7 Q. Okay What PACCAR also says -- 8 A. Remind me what page that's on Q. Page 30 10 A. It's number 11 right 11 Q. The answer begins on page 30 12 A. Yeah Okay 13. All right 13 Q. Can you -- on page 32 at line 16 to 17 the 14 answer says Early versions of nonasbestos brakes and 15 clutches could safely be used on certain trucks for 16 certain applications 17 Do you see that 18 A. No. 19 Q. There at page 32 line 16 Early versions 20 A. Okay Line 14. All right I see it 21 Q. Are we looking at the same thing 22 A. I don't know Mine's page 32 Early version 23 starts actually at 13 and half 24 Q. Maybe we're not looking at the same thing The 25 Carpenter Standard Interrogatory Responses Asbestos Reporters GPS affiliate 214-347-4781 Paccar Inc. PMQ Rodney Curbo September 26 2023 424 1 A. PACCAR's Objection and Answer to LAOSD Standard 2 Interrogatories to Defendants 3 Q. Okay At any rate reading Early versions 4 of nonasbestos brakes and clutches could safely be used 5 on certain trucks for certain applications 6 Do you see that 7 A. Yes 8 The earliest that's true is 1984 true A. Based off of the information that we found thus 10 far 11 Q. And that means -- that was only if engineering 12 approved it and if there was an emergency brake on each 13 axle true 14 A. Yes 15 Q. So the acc -- the most accurate way to say this 16 is the first PACCAR trucks that have nonasbestos brakes 17 were in 1984 true 18 MR IRVIN Argumentative -- excuse me 19 Argumentative calls for speculation 20 vague and ambiguous as to what you mean by the most 21 accurate way 22 A. I think based on -- 23 MR JONES I'll withdraw it 24 Q. BY MR JONES A truthful statement would be -- 25 MR IRVIN That's argumentative Asbestos Reporters GPS affiliate 214-347-4781 Paccar Inc. PMQ Rodney Curbo September 26 2023 425 1 Q. -- the first PACCAR trucks -- 2 MR JONES You got to wait until I get it 3 out 4 5 the pain 6 MR IRVIN I know I just couldn't take MR JONES I know 7 Q. BY MR JONES It would be a true statement for 8 PACCAR to say in this interrogatory that the first PACCAR trucks to include nonasbestos brakes was in 1984 10 and only then with engineering approval and if the truck 11 was equipped with an emergency brake on true axles 12 That would be a truthful statement true 13 MR IRVIN Argumentative 14 A. I think that would be just as true as what we 15 stated here 16 Q. BY MR JONES Well what you stated here means 17 that it's possible that in the 1970s PACCAR had a 18 nonasbestos truck right 19 A. It could be interpreted that way yes 20 Q. And that would not be true 21 A. I don't know 22 Q. Well you do know 23 If it could be interpreted that in the 24 1970s PACCAR had a truck with nonasbestos brakes and in 25 fact the first truck PACCAR had with nonasbestos brakes Asbestos Reporters GPS affiliate 214-347-4781 Paccar Inc. PMQ Rodney Curbo September 26 2023 426 1 was 1984 then this statement would not be true right 2 A. Well I think we've said all along we don't 3 know exactly when -- we don't know the chemical 4 composition We don't know the composition of the 5 linings We don't know if all the linings contained 6 asbestos 7 In fact Abex's responses confirm exactly 8 what we've said and they say that not all linings contained asbestos 10 And so there might have been -- there 11 might be trucks out there that have 12 nonasbestos linings I just don't know 13 Q. I'm sure Abex was selling nonasbestos linings 14 before 1984 right 15 A. I believe they were 16 Q. And in fact Mack Trucks was nonasbestos 17 standard in 1982 18 A. I believe that's what the doc -- what our 19 information says 20 Q. Abex had to wait for PACCAR to test the 21 nonasbestos brakes before PACCAR could make them 22 standard on their trucks true 23 A. Well of course we're going to test them 24 Q. Mack completed that process by at least 1982 25 true Asbestos Reporters GPS affiliate 214-347-4781 Paccar Inc. PMQ Rodney Curbo September 26 2023 427 1 A. It appears that they completed that process and 2 maybe didn't have the same requirements that we had 3 because they had durability problems 4 Q. And PACCAR didn't complete that process until 5 1987 6 A. Well complete the process in 1987 7 We began offering nonasbestos brakes 8 during that transition period at least as early as 1984 Q. You've suggested that the industrial hygienist 10 Dave Bissonnette did tests on asbestos components and 11 PACCAR trucks and that those tests indicated that there 12 were little or no exposures to asbestos true 13 A. I believe what I said is he did sampling on 14 workers working around brakes and clutches in trucks 15 Q. Did you mean to suggest that that sampling 16 was the -- was done when the same type of work would be 17 done in say a PACCAR dealership where a mechanic is 18 changing brakes 19 MR IRVIN Objection There's no PACCAR 20 dealership Can you rephrase that question 21 All right You can answer about what 22 would happen at a PACCAR dealership 23 A. Well first of all what I would say is that 24 1976 document that we talked about was at a PACCAR truck 25 center and it was -- it states that it was doing Asbestos Reporters GPS affiliate 214-347-4781 Paccar Inc. PMQ Rodney Curbo September 26 2023 428 1 sampling of mechanics while they were doing brake 2 work and clutch -- brake repair and clutch repair 3 Q. BY MR JONES And it doesn't say what that is 4 A. It doesn't get into the specifics 5 Q. Did you know that Mr. Bissonnette when 6 providing information to lawyers in 1997 indicated that 7 PACCAR never did tests on asbestos components about 8 asbestos release A. No I didn't 10 MR IRVIN What -- 11 Q. BY MR JONES Do you have Exhibit 28 12 MR IRVIN What -- 13 Reporter clarification) 14 MR IRVIN -- I disagree Misstates the 15 documents Misstates the testimony 16 MR JONES Okay 17 MR IRVIN Oh The -- 18 Q. BY MR JONES It's the 1997 interrogatory 19 responses 20 MR IRVIN Yeah You said 1987 21 and -- there was a lot of things wrong 22 MR JONES Did I say 1987 I'll ask it 23 again I'll withdraw the previous question 24 MR IRVIN You mean you're talking about 25 the Tinker rogs verified by that lawyer Asbestos Reporters GPS affiliate 214-347-4781 Paccar Inc. PMQ Rodney Curbo September 26 2023 429 1 MR JONES Whoever verified it 2 I don't get to -- we don't get to pick it 3 They get to -- PACCAR gets to pick it 4 MR IRVIN No. We don't think so but 5 okay 6 MR JONES Was he lying Was that PACCAR 7 lawyer lying That dirty liar 8 Q. BY MR JONES All right In 1997 Mr. Bissonnette provided information to attorneys to 10 answer questions in asbestos litigation true 11 A. I believe that's what this indicates 12 Q. And one of the questions PACCAR was asked was 13 did they ever do any tests on the asbestos components 14 that PACCAR sold Interrogatory No. 10 on page 12 15 MR IRVIN Foundation and speculation to 16 all this 17 Q. BY MR JONES Are you on page 12 18 A. I am 19 And I'm looking at the other 20 interrogatories that are referenced in that 21 Q. Interrogatories for -- so it says 22 Interrogatory No. 10 Testing Were any tests 23 conducted on any containing component parts 24 identified in Interrogatory No. 4,5,6,7,8 4,5,6,7,8 4,5,6,7,8 4,5,6,7,8 8 or 9 25 Right Asbestos Reporters GPS affiliate 214-347-4781 Paccar Inc. PMQ Rodney Curbo September 26 2023 430 1 A. Yes 2 Q. And in 4 5 6 7 8 or 9 -- not in all of 3 them but some of them -- asbestos brakes asbestos 4 clutches and asbestos gaskets are identified true 5 A. Yes It -- yes 6 Q. And the answer to Interrogatory No. 10 is 7 Peterbilt knows of no tests conduct on 8 containing parts identified previously Did I read that correctly 10 A. You did 11 Q. PACCAR is also asked in this set of 12 interrogatories if there were any asbestos Workers 13 Compensation claims filed against the company at 14 Interrogatory No. 15. True 15 16. I'm sorry page 16 16 A. It specifically says Have you had any claims 17 of employees alleging injury due to asbestos exposure 18 If so state -- and there's some things to state 19 Q. And PACCAR says Defendant has no record of 20 any Worker Compensation claim alleging injury due to 21 asbestos exposure o component parts 22 Did I read that correctly 23 A. That's what this -- that's what it says 24 Q. PACCAR does have a report of a Workers 25 Compensation claim for an asbestos injury true Asbestos Reporters GPS affiliate 214-347-4781 Paccar Inc. PMQ Rodney Curbo September 26 2023 431 1 A. I believe there is at least one in Canada 2 Q. 1976 an employee of a PACCAR branch in 3 Edmonton Alberta who worked for PACCAR for about 4 20 years developed an asbestos disease true 5 A. I believe that's what the document says 6 MR JONES I don't have an extra copy of 7 it but we'll mark it as Exhibit 56 did we say 8 THE REPORTER Yes We haven't marked anything else 10 Exhibit 56 marked 11 Q. BY MR JONES Are you familiar with what I 12 have marked as Exhibit 56 13 A. I am 14 Q. What's the Bates number on it I'm about to 15 pull it up on this 16 A. 65 17 Q. Thank you Okay 18 And Exhibit 56 is authored by 19 Mr. Bissonnette the industrial hygienist true 20 A. That's correct 21 Q. He's certainly aware of this alleged case of 22 asbestosis and mesothelioma in this gentleman 23 Mr. Jackson true 24 MR IRVIN Calls for speculation Vague 25 as to time Asbestos Reporters GPS affiliate 214-347-4781 Paccar Inc. PMQ Rodney Curbo September 26 2023 432 1 A. Well he authored this document He's aware of 2 the claim 3 Q. BY MR JONES Okay And then Mr. Bissonnette 4 asked some questions about this potential claim Do you 5 see that 6 A. I do 7 Q. Does he ask What asbestos was Mr. Jackson 8 around at the PACCAR facility in Alberta A. He asks Was this -- was his exposure at our 10 branch sufficient to produce lung cancer If not at our 11 branch essentially says where else might he have been 12 exposed 13 Q. Mr. Bissonnette asked the kind of questions 14 that a defense lawyer would ask 15 MR IRVIN No no no no 16 That calls for speculation That's 17 argumentative Foundation 18 If you know what a defense lawyer would 19 ask then answer But I think that's complete 20 speculation It's argumentative 21 A. I would say that Mr. Bissonnette asked the kind 22 of questions that you would expect an industrial 23 hygienist to ask 24 Q. BY MR JONES Working for a company that was 25 alleged to harm someone Asbestos Reporters GPS affiliate 214-347-4781 Paccar Inc. PMQ Rodney Curbo September 26 2023 433 1 MR IRVIN Argumentative 2 Q. BY MR JONES Right 3 MR IRVIN Found -- argumentative 4 foundation beyond the scope 5 A. I would say he asked the kind of questions that 6 an industrial hygienist would ask to determine whether 7 or not this claim is accurate whether it's an accurate 8 claim or not Q. BY MR JONES Okay His first question is 10 Does this guy even have asbestosis mesothelioma Right 11 A. That's his question 12 Q. His second question is If so was his 13 exposure at our branch sufficient to produce lung 14 cancer 15 That's the second question 16 A. Correct 17 Q. And his third is If not our branch exposure 18 what was his previous work history and was it possible 19 that he's been exposed to mining milling insulation 20 or other occupational asbestos hazards 21 Did I read that correctly 22 A. Yes 23 Q. Did you find in the documents the results of 24 Mr. Bissonnette's investigation into the potential 25 asbestos exposures experienced at the Edmonton Alberta Asbestos Reporters GPS affiliate 214-347-4781 Paccar Inc. PMQ Rodney Curbo September 26 2023 434 1 Branch of PACCAR 2 A. I believe that that's why he did the -- it's 3 possibly the -- part of the reason why he did the 4 sampling of the mechanics at that dealership 5 Q. Okay And Exhibit 54 is one of those 6 documents 7 A. Yes 8 Q. Exhibit 54 is where they discussed asbestos sampling And the description as far as it relates to 10 brakes and clutches is quote brake and clutch repair 11 True 12 A. That's correct 13 Q. There's no description of what they're actually 14 doing true 15 MR IRVIN Asked and answered several 16 times 17 A. There's no detailed explanation of exactly what 18 they were doing 19 Q. BY MR JONES And for the person doing -- the 20 reports of the people doing brake repair it's 21 nondetectable Right 22 A. That's correct 23 Q. For the person doing clutch repair they found 24 193,500 fibers true 25 MR IRVIN Assume facts Misstates the Asbestos Reporters GPS affiliate 214-347-4781 Paccar Inc. PMQ Rodney Curbo September 26 2023 435 1 document 2 A. Well it says that they found 193,500 as I 3 understand milligrams which I forget how many pounds 4 that is but it's pretty extreme 5 And c it's denoted with a c in 6 parentheses which down below says As blank was 7 grossly contaminated a new blank from the same box of 8 cassettes was counted 10 means It's unclear exactly to me what that 11 Q. BY MR JONES Okay Now you've testified 12 before that the people that made the components that 13 supplied those components to PACCAR were the experts 14 about those components 15 A. Yes 16 Q. The people that supplied those components to 17 Carpenter as of 1978 with Rockwell at least was 18 warning about asbestos true 19 A. They were 20 Q. And they gave instructions about asbestos 21 hazards and how to avoid them true 22 A. Yes 23 Q. Does Mr. Bissonnette know better than Rockwell 24 about the hazards associated with Rockwell's brakes 25 A. I can't speak to that I don't know Asbestos Reporters GPS affiliate 214-347-4781 Paccar Inc. PMQ Rodney Curbo September 26 2023 436 1 Q. Well what you said before is that the 2 component suppliers are the experts about the hazards of 3 their products right 4 A. Yes 5 Q. That's why PACCAR you say relied on them to 6 provide the warnings 7 A. We relied on them to provide not just the 8 warnings but maintenance information etcetera Q. Are you saying that Mr. Bissonnette proved that 10 Rockwell was wrong when it warned about asbestos in the 11 brake manual 12 MR IRVIN Argumentative calls for 13 speculation 14 A. I don't know why Rockwell decided to include 15 the warning in their manual 16 What we do know is Mr. Bissonnette did 17 some testing and came back and says that he did not find 18 any asbestos 19 I think this particular document is 20 confusing at least associated with that particular 21 test which by the way was not associated with brakes 22 If you take a look at I believe it's 23 PACCAR 68 it's one of the newer documents that we found 24 in our last search I think it's 68 25 We found what appears to be when they took Asbestos Reporters GPS affiliate 214-347-4781 Paccar Inc. PMQ Rodney Curbo September 26 2023 437 1 the sample on August 23rd of 1976 which says An 2 Arnold Shillings was replacing brake shoes in the 3 southeast bay Rudy and I was replacing a clutch in the 4 southwest central bay 5 And it says in note The clutch was 6 only one to two weeks old 7 And then it says The third person 8 Herman Varing phonetic was electrical mechanic In parentheses he was doing similar to work performed by 10 Joseph Verne phonetic which I believe is the 11 individual who made the claim of having asbestosis or 12 mesothelioma I'm not for sure which 13 Q. BY MR JONES So this study was done by 14 Mr. Bissonnette as part of PACCAR's defense of that 15 claim 16 MR IRVIN Well you know that calls for 17 speculation Assumes facts 18 A. I don't know if it's part of the defense or 19 not 20 I know it -- I mean if it was that part 21 of the defense would have been the results from Herman 22 Raring who wasn't doing clutch or brake work 23 It would seem to me if that was the case 24 then what Mr. Bissonnette did was take the opportunity 25 while he was doing sampling for that case if that's Asbestos Reporters GPS affiliate 214-347-4781 Paccar Inc. PMQ Rodney Curbo September 26 2023 438 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 10 11 12 what he was doing to also do sampling of other possible -- I just lost the word -- other possible health hazards And appears that what he found was none Q. If someone was going to go -- if someone had a Kenworth truck and wanted to get their brakes changed one place they could do that would be at a Kenworth dealership true A. Yes they could Q. Kenworth dealerships had mechanics who were approved to do warranty work on Kenworth trucks true A. Yes 13 Q. Meaning they were trained by Kenworth to work 14 on Kenworth trucks true 15 A. Correct 16 Q. Customers wouldn't bring trucks to Kenworth's 17 factories to have their brakes changed right 18 A. No. 19 Q. They would go to a dealership right 20 A. Correct 21 Q. Mr. Bissonnette knew that 22 MR IRVIN Well -- 23 BY MR JONES Right 24 I believe so 25 Did he do any test at a Kenworth dealership Asbestos Reporters GPS affiliate 214-347-4781 Paccar Inc. PMQ Rodney Curbo September 26 2023 439 1 where he knew that mechanics were doing the type of work 2 to repair and maintain trucks on a daily basis 3 A. My understanding is the PACCAR Truck Center is 4 a dealership It's the one dealership in Canada that is 5 owned by PACCAR 6 Q. Okay So he only went to the company 7 dealership 8 A. That's what it appears Q. Okay Mr. Bissonnette must have been aware of 10 Exhibit 20 the Friction Materials Standards Work 11 Practices Guide 12 MR IRVIN Assumes facts calls for 13 speculation 14 A. I don't know 15 Q. BY MR JONES Well PACCAR has this document 16 right 17 A. We did 18 Q. And this talks about all the hazards associated 19 with asbestos brakes right 20 MR IRVIN Misstates the document 21 argumentative 22 Q. BY MR JONES Right 23 A. It talks about some of the hazards or concerns 24 Q. Did Mr. Bissonnette disprove the Friction 25 Materials Work Practices Guide Asbestos Reporters GPS affiliate 214-347-4781 Paccar Inc. PMQ Rodney Curbo September 26 2023 440 1 MR IRVIN Argumentative Calls for 2 medical or scientific opinion 3 A. All I would say is Mr. Bissonnette in 4 his -- in his -- when he did the sampling he claims 5 that he found no asbestos 6 Q. BY MR JONES That is what he claims 7 But are you saying that -- are you saying 8 that the warnings from Rockwell Eaton and the Friction Materials Standards Institute were completely 10 unnecessary 11 MR IRVIN Calls for speculation Calls 12 for legal and medical opinion Misstates testimony 13 A. Again what I'll say is for instance with the 14 Rockwell document we're not -- we don't know what their 15 decision process was 16 Our decision process appears to be 17 Mr. Bissonnette did sampling using independent 18 laboratories And if in the sampling that he did at 19 this dealership and in the inaudible plants found no 20 asbestos 21 Q. BY MR JONES And this is the -- this 22 Exhibit 54 -- 23 MR JONES Is it 54 24 25 question MR IRVIN Mr. Jones can I ask a Asbestos Reporters GPS affiliate 214-347-4781 Paccar Inc. PMQ Rodney Curbo September 26 2023 441 1 2 question 3 4 question 5 6 7 question 8 MR JONES Yeah -- no you can't ask a MR IRVIN I'm not going to ask him MR JONES MR IRVIN Yeah No. Yeah I'm going to ask you a MR JONES Yeah MR IRVIN He referred to PACCAR 68. You 10 asked him questions about that Can we attach it as an 11 exhibit 12 MR JONES Yes 13 MR IRVIN Thanks 14 What is next in line 15 THE REPORTER 57 16 17 stickers MR IRVIN Do you have one of those fancy 18 Exhibit 57 marked 19 MR IRVIN Can I just throw it to you and 20 you -- since you're an assistant 21 MR JONES There's like zero chance now 22 MR IRVIN Just kidding 23 Q. BY MR JONES Exhibit 54 is the only test that 24 even purports to do sampling sampling during brake or clutch 25 repair true Asbestos Reporters GPS affiliate 214-347-4781 214-347-4781 Paccar Inc. PMQ Rodney Curbo September 26 2023 442 1 A. It's the only document that we found yes 2 Q. The other sampling that was attached had to 3 deal -- dealt with people assembling the trucks right 4 A. The other documents that we found where they 5 did our sampling were associated with either -- within 6 offices or within the -- PACCAR's facili -- 7 manufacturing facilities 8 Q. So this is the extent of Mr. Bissonnette's study as to whether or not work with brakes and 10 clutches when repairing heavy trucks causes asbestos 11 exposure True 12 MR IRVIN Calls for speculation 13 A. I can't say that it's the only document that 14 we've found 15 Q. BY MR JONES Okay As far as you can tell 16 Exhibit 54 -- which you described as confusing right 17 MR IRVIN Misstates testimony 18 argumentative 19 A. What I described was that one result which was 20 associated with Rudy Abma phonetic who was 21 doing -- looks like he was replacing a one- or 22 week clutch is confusing 23 Q. BY MR JONES Okay And those results are 24 dramatically different from what we saw from the 25 independent researchers at Mount Sinai in 1976 true Asbestos Reporters GPS affiliate 214-347-4781 Paccar Inc. PMQ Rodney Curbo September 26 2023 443 1 MR IRVIN Argumentative calls for 2 scientific conclusion 3 A. I have not read that report I don't know 4 Q. BY MR JONES Well the first sentence says 5 that the exposures can be well above regulated levels 6 right 7 MR IRVIN Argumentative Calls for you 8 to speculate A. I've not read the report I don't know 10 Q. BY MR JONES You remember it said that it's 11 bad right Working on brakes is bad 12 MR IRVIN Argumentative 13 A. One sentence of an entire multi report 14 Q. BY MR JONES Well it was the first sentence 15 right It was the introduction 16 MR IRVIN And beyond scope 17 argumentative 18 Q. BY MR JONES Why are Mr. Bissonnette's 19 results so dramatically different 20 A. I don't know 21 MR IRVIN Argumentative 22 Q. BY MR JONES There -- are Mr. Bissonnette's 23 result similar to anyone else who tested asbestos brakes 24 and clutches at the time 25 MR IRVIN Calls for speculation Asbestos Reporters GPS affiliate 214-347-4781 Paccar Inc. PMQ Rodney Curbo September 26 2023 444 1 argumentative 2 A. I don't know 3 What we've -- what we have done is 4 provided the information that PACCAR found We assume 5 that that's the information that PACCAR based decisions 6 off of 7 Q. That one test 8 MR IRVIN Argumentative Misstates testimony 10 A. The ones we have found 11 I don't know if there are others or not 12 We haven't found additional documents but it didn't 13 mean they didn't exist 14 Q. BY MR JONES Okay You don't have any 15 personal knowledge of Mr. Carpenter's work with 16 anything right 17 A. No. 18 Q. What I said is correct 19 A. What you said is correct that I don't have any 20 personal knowledge of -- beyond what I read in his 21 deposition 22 Q. You never met Mr. Carpenter 23 A. I have never met Mr. Carpenter 24 Q. You never worked at any place where he worked 25 A. No I -- no Asbestos Reporters GPS affiliate 214-347-4781 Paccar Inc. PMQ Rodney Curbo September 26 2023 445 1 Q. You -- okay 2 A. Have not 3 Q. Are you aware of any issues related to exposure 4 to diesel fumes associated with people driving Kenworth 5 trucks 6 MR IRVIN No no That's not in the 7 notice Beyond the scope 8 We've gone nine hours Don't answer that Rod 10 MR JONES Well if you guys aren't 11 claiming that's an issue I'm not either 12 MR IRVIN It's not in the notice 13 MR JONES But -- 14 MR IRVIN And he's not a scientist 15 He's not here for those medical opinions We've not 16 been asked about diesel fumes It's not a basis of the 17 suit 18 You know I could go on till the Lord 19 comes back 20 Q. BY MR JONES Can you go in the notebook to 21 268 Bates 268 22 A. I can Okay 23 Q. We're going to mark that as Exhibit -- oh this 24 is a mess We're going to mark that as Exhibit -- 25 THE REPORTER 58 Asbestos Reporters GPS affiliate 214-347-4781 Paccar Inc. PMQ Rodney Curbo September 26 2023 446 1 Q. BY MR JONES -- 58 2 Exhibit 58 marked 3 4 5 Q. 6 A. 7 Abex Discussion between Counsel and Reporter MR IRVIN All right Mr. Jones BY MR JONES What is Exhibit 58 Exhibit 58 is a Material Safety Data Sheet from 8 Q. Does this Material Data -- Material Safety Data Sheet cover the 551 series of brakes 10 It's on the second line under Identity 11 under where it says Label 12 A. It does 13 Q. Okay So you were asked how you knew that the 14 551C was asbes -- was Abex right 15 A. Yes 16 Q. 17 me This would indicate that an Abex 551 -- pardon 18 This would indicate that a 551 brake was 19 an Abex brake true 20 A. Possibly 21 MR FLYNN Objection Move to strike 22 Lack of foundation calls for speculation assumes 23 facts 24 Q. BY MR JONES Are you aware of any other brake 25 manufacturer that sold a 551 brake to PACCAR Asbestos Reporters GPS affiliate 214-347-4781 Paccar Inc. PMQ Rodney Curbo September 26 2023 447 1 A. No no 2 MR FLYNN Same objections 3 A. I'm not 4 Q. BY MR JONES Okay And this indicates that 5 the 551 series of Abex brakes are containing 6 true 7 A. This in -- 8 MR FLYNN Same objections A. This indicates that the 551 series amongst 10 others Abex lining would contain asbestos yes 11 Q. BY MR JONES Okay This is a true and 12 correct copy of a document found in PACCAR's files 13 A. Yes 14 Q. This is a document received by PACCAR 15 A. Yes 16 Q. Okay Can you please go to 357 17 We're going to make this 59 I think we're 18 up to 19 A. Yes 20 Exhibit 59 marked 21 MR IRVIN Could you tell me what the 22 date on the document is so I could 23 MR JONES July 7 1982 24 Q. BY MR JONES Exhibit 59 is a document dated 25 July 7 1982 true Asbestos Reporters GPS affiliate 214-347-4781 Paccar Inc. PMQ Rodney Curbo September 26 2023 448 1 A. Yes 2 Q. And it's a memorandum on Abex letterhead true 3 A. Yes 4 Q. And it says -- subject is Nonasbestos lining 5 field test update True 6 A. That's correct 7 Q. And then attached to it on the next page is 8 Abex 931-162 Nonasbestos Block Field Test Update July 7 1982 10 A. That's correct 11 Q. This is the kind of testing that PACCAR would 12 rely on in part when trying to approve a new brake 13 lining 14 A. That's correct 15 Q. Okay And if you look in the -- on that second 16 page the field test update the fleet is Smith 17 Transfer Do you see that 18 A. I do 19 Q. And the second paragraph it says This fleet 20 normally receives between 130,000 and 150,000 miles 21 lining life from the replacement asbestos lining 22 And it identifies it as Abex 551. True 23 A. Yes 24 Q. Okay This is a true and correct copy of a 25 document found in PACCAR's files Asbestos Reporters GPS affiliate 214-347-4781 Paccar Inc. PMQ Rodney Curbo September 26 2023 449 1 A. Yes 2 Q. This is a document received by PACCAR 3 A. Yes 4 Q. Okay And this document would indicate that 5 the Abex -- that the 551 series of brakes were an Abex 6 product true 7 A. Seems to indicate that 8 Q. And that that was an asbes -- MR FLYNN Objection Move to strike 10 Lack of foundation calls for speculation lack of 11 personal knowledge 12 Q. BY MR JONES And that that was an asbestos 13 brake 14 A. It seems to indicate that 15 Q. Your counsel asked you about your doc -- about 16 the document retention policy at PACCAR Do you recall 17 that 18 A. Yes 19 Q. For documents that have been destroyed by 20 PACCAR you wouldn't have an opportunity to review those 21 documents true 22 MR IRVIN Argumentative 23 A. I'm not for sure what you're referring to 24 Q. BY MR JONES If a document doesn't exist 25 anymore you can't look at it Asbestos Reporters GPS affiliate 214-347-4781 Paccar Inc. PMQ Rodney Curbo September 26 2023 450 1 A. That's correct 2 Q. And a document retention policy means these are 3 the documents we retained and the rest we discard true 4 A. That's correct 5 Q. Apparently based on the records we've seen 6 from Abex lots of records related to the purchase of 7 asbestos brake linings have been destroyed pursuant to 8 this document retention policy true MR IRVIN Argumentative calls for 10 speculation 11 A. You know I've not had the opportunity to look 12 at our document retention policy regarding those 13 particular documents 14 Q. BY MR JONES Well you testified that 15 you -- that PACCAR has done several sweeps for 16 documents right 17 A. Yes I have -- yes I did 18 Q. And you've been personally involved in one of 19 those sweeps 20 A. Yes 21 Q. And you asked 75 or 80 people more than ten 22 years ago about subjects including PACCAR's purchase of 23 brake linings true 24 A. Yes I have 25 Q. And based on that investigation you testified Asbestos Reporters GPS affiliate 214-347-4781 Paccar Inc. PMQ Rodney Curbo September 26 2023 451 1 and have verified interrogatory responses for many years 2 indicating that PACCAR never bought brake linings 3 directly from Abex true 4 MR IRVIN Argumentative asked and 5 answered misstates testimony 6 A. That was my understanding 7 Q. BY MR JONES And now you've authenticated 8 several Kenworth documents beginning in 19 -- the mid 1970s and going through the early 1980s indicating that 10 Kenworth had a blanket purchase agreement with Abex 11 true 12 MR IRVIN Misstates testimony Calls 13 for a legal conclusion 14 A. I believe what I said is it appears that those 15 documents have Kenworth letterheads 16 Q. BY MR JONES And you've testified and PACCAR 17 has verified discovery responses that said Kenworth 18 never put a Kenworth label on boxes of asbestos brakes 19 true 20 MR IRVIN Argumentative asked and 21 answered beyond the scope of direct 22 A. That's been our understanding 23 Q. BY MR JONES And the documents from Abex 24 indicate that they had a label with Kenworth's logo on 25 it to put on boxes of asbestos brakes true Asbestos Reporters GPS affiliate 214-347-4781 Paccar Inc. PMQ Rodney Curbo September 26 2023 452 1 MR IRVIN Same objections 2 A. It indicates that they had a label to put on 3 boxes 4 Q. BY MR JONES Okay You don't have any 5 documents in PACCAR's files to prove that true 6 A. To prove what 7 Q. That PACCAR had the blanket purchase agreement 8 with Abex A. I have not -- we have not found that -- those 10 documents -- 11 Q. So if A -- 12 A. -- at this point 13 Q. If Abex didn't produce those documents you 14 would still tell people that PACCAR never bought 15 asbestos brake linings from Abex true 16 MR IRVIN Calls for -- argumentative 17 Calls for speculation foundation 18 A. Based off of the information that we have we 19 didn't have any information that indicated that we 20 purchased brake linings directly from Abex 21 Q. BY MR JONES Because that information has 22 been destroyed 23 MR IRVIN Argumentative 24 A. I don't know if it's been destroyed We 25 haven't found it Asbestos Reporters GPS affiliate 214-347-4781 Paccar Inc. PMQ Rodney Curbo September 26 2023 453 1 Q. BY MR JONES Okay Are you going to change 2 your interrogatory responses and admit that PACCAR 3 bought brake linings from Abex 4 MR IRVIN Calls for speculation 5 argumentative 6 A. Because I said last week we need to investigate 7 those documents and make sure we have them in context 8 and until we do we'll change or not change our responses based off of what we find 10 Q. BY MR JONES Do you know that Abex claims 11 that they started putting asbestos warnings on their 12 boxes of brake linings in the early to mid 1970s 13 MR IRVIN Calls for speculation 14 A. No. I was not aware -- 15 MR IRVIN Assume facts not in evidence 16 THE WITNESS Sorry 17 A. I was not aware of that 18 Q. BY MR JONES If PACCAR was sending brake 19 linings to PACCAR in the mid -- early to mid 1970s that 20 would mean PACCAR got those asbestos warnings true 21 MR IRVIN Calls for speculation 22 Assumes facts Argumentative 23 A. I think you're assuming that those documents 24 indicate that those brake linings were sent to PACCAR 25 I'm not -- based off of what I've seen of the documents Asbestos Reporters GPS affiliate 214-347-4781 Paccar Inc. PMQ Rodney Curbo September 26 2023 454 1 I don't think that's what they say 2 MR IRVIN Calls for speculation 3 Q. BY MR JONES So you think boxes of brakes 4 with asbestos linings with warnings on them would go to 5 every Kenworth dealership in the country and Kenworth 6 Corporate would have no idea 7 MR IRVIN Argumentative Calls for 8 speculation assumes facts not in evidence and misstates testimony 10 A. I don't think we -- I don't think I 11 understand -- or would have no idea 12 I don't -- I yes -- they would know that 13 the -- if -- assuming that those documents are accurate 14 and how we understand them I think they would know that 15 dealers were ordering linings from Abex through our 16 blanket purchase order That's what it appears on the 17 few documents that I've seen 18 Q. BY MR JONES Okay 19 MR JONES I'll pass the witness 20 MR IRVIN Hold on a second 21 MR FLYNN This is Johan Flynn I have 22 like two questions I need to ask on Exhibit 45 that I 23 wasn't able to ask earlier 24 MR JONES Which one was 45 25 MR FLYNN I think that's the Asbestos Reporters GPS affiliate 214-347-4781 Paccar Inc. PMQ Rodney Curbo September 26 2023 455 1 spreadsheet -- 2 MR JONES Yes Inaudible) 3 MR FLYNN -- that was prepared and 4 produced for the deposition 5 MR JONES Yeah 6 MR FLYNN Yeah I apologize I thought 7 I was done but I was rushing to get out of the house 8 when I was asking my questions earlier so I apologize It shouldn't be very long at all 10 FURTHER EXAMINATION 11 BY MR FLYNN 12 Q. Mr. Curbo Johan Flynn again for Abex 13 On Exhibit 45 there were some indications 14 of 551C for certain chassis And then for other chassis 15 there was no indication of 551C Is that correct 16 A. That's correct 17 Q. And then I believe for the first eight chassis 18 that were on Exhibit 45 the labels for the rear brakes 19 I believe begin with MPS Do you see that 20 A. I do 21 Q. Do you know what MPS stands for 22 A. I do not 23 Q. So based on the chassis that were sold to 24 Kraft there's some number of them that you have no 25 indication as the corporate representative of PACCAR and Asbestos Reporters GPS affiliate 214-347-4781 Paccar Inc. PMQ Rodney Curbo September 26 2023 456 1 Kenworth that whether they contained Abex friction 2 materials or not Is that a true statement 3 A. That's true I don't know what the linings 4 were on many of these brakes 5 Q. Okay 6 MR FLYNN Thank you sir That's all I 7 have I appreciate your time And sorry to have to 8 come back at the end and ask a couple more questions Thanks 10 11 We -- MR IRVIN Trey you done All right 12 13 my turn 14 15 16 that MR JONES I've already asked It's not MR IRVIN MR JONES Yeah yeah As long as you -Oh I have no followup on 17 MR IRVIN Okay 18 Anyone else on the Zoom 19 All right We're done for the day 20 MR JONES We're done for the forever 21 MR IRVIN A hundred percent 22 THE VIDEOGRAPHER This concludes Volume 2 23 of the recorded deposition of PACCAR PMQ Rodney 24 Curbo taken on September 26 2023 25 The time is 7:08 p.m. and we're going off Asbestos Reporters GPS affiliate 214-347-4781 Paccar Inc. PMQ Rodney Curbo September 26 2023 the record 2 End of proceedings at 7:08 p.m. 3 4 5 6 7 8 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Asbestos Reporters GPS affiliate 214-347-4781 457 Paccar Inc. PMQ Rodney Curbo September 26 2023 458 1 CHANGES AND SIGNATURE 2 WITNESS NAME RODNEY CURBO DATE SEPTEMBER 26 2023 3 PAGE LINE CHANGE REASON 4 5 6 7 8 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Asbestos Reporters GPS affiliate 214-347-4781 Paccar Inc. PMQ Rodney Curbo September 26 2023 Ir RODNEY CURBO have read the foregoing deposition and hereby affix my signature that same is true and correct except as noted above 459 THE STATE OF COUNTY OF RODNEY CURBO ) ) 10 Before me , on this day 11 personally appeared RODNEY CURBO known to me or proved 12 to me under oath or through ) 13 description of identity card or other document to be 14 the person whose name is subscribed to the foregoing 15 instrument and acknowledged to me that they executed the 16 same for the purposes and consideration therein 17 expressed 18 Given under my hand and seal of office this 19 day of , 2023 20 21 22 23 NOTARY PUBLIC IN AND FOR 24 THE STATE OF 25 COMMISSION EXPIRES Asbestos Reporters GPS affiliate 214-347-4781 Paccar Inc. PMQ Rodney Curbo September 26 2023 SUPERIOR COURT OF THE STATE OF CALIFORNIA 460 FOR THE COUNTY OF LOS ANGELES RONALD LEROY PATRICIA ANN CARPENTER AND CARPENTER Plaintiffs VS. 3M COMPANY k MINNESOTA MINING & MANUFACTURING COMPANY et al Defendants ) J.C.C.P. NO 4674 ee ) Los Angeles County ) Superior Court No. ) 20STCV46727 ) ) ee ee ) Nee Nee 10 11 12 PACCAR'S REPORTER'S CERTIFICATION DEPOSITION OF PERSON MOST QUALIFIED SEPTEMBER 26 2023 VOLUME 2 OF 2 RODNEY CURBO 13 14 I Kimberly Byrns Buchanan Certified Shorthand 15 Reporter in and for the State of Texas hereby certify 16 to the following 17 That the witness RODNEY CURBO was duly sworn by the 18 officer and that the transcript of the oral deposition 19 is a true record of the testimony given by the witness 20 That the deposition transcript was submitted on 21 to the witness or to the attorney 22 for the witness for examination signature and return to 23 me by ; 24 That the amount of time used by each party at the 25 deposition is as follows Asbestos Reporters GPS affiliate 214-347-4781 Paccar Inc. PMQ Rodney Curbo September 26 2023 461 1 Mr. H. W. Trey Jones - 04 HOURS 07 MINUTES 2 Mr. Jason J. Irvin - 01 HOURS 16 MINUTES 3 Mr. Robert H. Baronian - 00 HOURS 13 MINUTES 4 Ms. Gabriel A. Jackson - 00 HOURS 00 MINUTES 5 Mr. Johan D. Flynn - 00 HOURS 28 MINUTES 6 That pursuant to information given to the deposition 7 officer at the time said testimony was taken the 8 following includes counsel for all parties of record Mr. H. W. Trey Jones Attorney for Plaintiffs 10 Mr. Jason J. Irvin and Ms. Shaghig Agopian remote 11 Attorneys for Defendant PACCAR INC Mr. Robert H. 12 Baronian remote Attorney for Defendant ARVINMERITOR 13 INC Ms. Gabriel A. Jackson remote Attorney for 14 Cummins Inc and Mr. Johan D. Flynn remote Attorney 15 for Pneumo Abex LLC 16 I further certify that I am neither counsel for 17 related to nor employed by any of the parties or 18 attorneys in the action in which this proceeding was 19 taken and further that I am not financially or 20 otherwise interested in the outcome of the action 21 Certified to by me this 9th day of October 2023 22 23 24 25 Asbestos Reporters GPS affiliate 214-347-4781 Paccar Inc. PMQ Rodney Curbo September 26 2023 Kimberly Byrns Buchanan Buchanan Kimberly Byrns Buchanan RPR Expiration Date 12/31/24 GOUCHER PARKER SPIVEY LLC Texas Registration 11446 7344 FM 2068 Commerce TX 214.347.4781 75428-5884 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Asbestos Reporters GPS affiliate 214-347-4781 187