Document jgeJYjOB1wnkwnmwKrnNzgBpQ

ill P 'A C IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT FOR THE DISTRICT OF SOUTH CAROLINA ANDERSON DIVISION CAROLE M. WHITFIELD, ET AL., Plaintiffs, vs. SANGAMOWESTON, INC., ET AL., Defendants. ) ) ) ) ) C.A. No. 8-84-3184-14 ) ) ) ) ) ) 1:06 P.M. March 15, 1985 Greenville, South Carolina DEPOSITION OF MONSANTO COMPANY BY AND THROUGH ITS AGENT WILLIAM B. PAPAGEORGF ROMELIA M. ADAMS OIANN C. HOLT Adams&tloltinc. VERBATIM COURT REPORTING SERVICES (704)334*4802 DEPOSITIONS DAILY COPY VIDEOTAPING (TRAVEL) 503 COURT PLAZA BUILDING, 901 ELIZABETH AVENUE / CHARLOTTE, N.C. 28204 WATER PCB-SD0000060593 Papageorge - 2 1 APPEARANCES: 2 For the Plaintiffs: 3 4 5 For the Defendant 6 Sangamo Weston, Inc.: 7 8 9 Mr. Terry F. Richardson, Ms. Susan J. Herdina Blatt & Fales Post Office Box 625 Barnwell, South Carolina Jr. 29812 Mr. L. Gray Geddie Mr. Donald A. Cockrill Ogletree, Deakins, Nash, Smoak & Stewart Post Office Box 2757 Greenville, South Carolina 29602 10 For the Defendant Schlumberger, Ltd.: 11 12 13 Mr. Daniel B. White Rainey, Britton, Gibhes & Clarkson, P.A. 330 East Coffee Street Post Office Box 105R9 Greenville, South Carolina 296Q3 14 For the Defendant 15 Monsanto Company: 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 Mr. W. Francis Marion, Jr. Haynesworth, Perry, Bryant, Marion & Johnstone Post Office Box 2Q4R Greenville, South Carolina 29602 and Mr. Thomas M. Bistline Assistant Litigation Counsel Monsanto Company 800 North Lindberg Boulevard St. Louis, Missouri 63167 * * * ic 24 25 WATER PCB-SD0000060594 Papageorge - 3 1 This is the deposition of MONSANTO COMPANY 2 by and through its agent WILLIAM B. PAPAGEORGE, being taken 3 by Notice and in accordance with the Federal Rules of Civil 4 Procedure before Romelia M. Adams, Notary Public, in the 5 offices of Ogletree, Deakins, Nash, Smoak & Stewart, logo 6 East North Street, Greenville, South Carolina, on the 15th 7 day of March, 1985, beginning at 1:06 P.M. 8 IT IS STIPULATED AND AGREED by and between 9 counsel for the parties that review and signing of this 10 transcript by the witness is waived. 11 *** * 12 13 14 INDEX 15 By Pages 16 Examination Mr. Richardson 4 - 131 17 Examination Mr. Geddie 18 Further Examination Mr. Richardson 19 20 * * * * 131 - 135 13 8 - 139 21 22 23 24 25 WATER PCB-SD0000060595 Papageorge - 4 1 WILLIAM B. PAPAGEORGE, being first duly 2 sworn, was examined and testified as follows: 3 EXAMINATI ON (By Mr. Richardson): 4 5 Q. State your full name and address for the record, 6 please. 7 William B. Papageorge. Would you want my business 8 address? 9 Q. That's fine. 10 A. Bu"siness address is 800 N"i-r-io- rth Lindber' gh Boulevard,, 11 St. Louis, Missouri 63167. 12 Q. Your employer? 13 A. Monsanto Company, 14 Q. Your age? 15 A. Sixty-two. 16 Q. I believe you've been involved with PCB's for some tiijt' 17 with Monsanto? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. Since when? 20 A. My earliest involvement was, the best I remember, about 21 1963 or thereabouts. 22 Q. What happened in '63 to bring you into touch with PCB-^ 23 A. I was a supervisor of functions at a Monsanto plant 24 that used PCB'_s^ 25 What was that function? WATER PCB-SD0000060596 Papageorge - 5 1 A. Maintenance Supervisor and later Maintenance Superin 2 tendent . 3 Q. For what facility? What was Monsanto making that used 4 PCB? 5 A. Monsanto atjthis site made hundreds of chemical 6 product^.' The PCB'_s__w__e_r_e_ __i_n_v__o_l_v_e__d___i_n___e__l_e__c_t_r_i_c_ al 7 equipment associated with those manufacturing units. 8 Q. So, you weren't at that time involved with the sale 9 of PCB's as a raw material to other facilities such 10 as Sangamo? 11 A. No. 12 Q. At that time, did you know there were hazards or 13 dangers associated with PCB's? 14 A. I was never made aware of any hazards. There are 15 precautions to be taken as with any chemical. 16 Q. Even today__you don't_recognize there are any hazards 17 invo 1 ved_ with_PCB' s? 18 A. That is correct. 19 Q. Is that your position or is that the position of 20 Monsanto? Are you speaking for Mr. Papageorge or 21 is that a company position? 22 A. I believe I'm speaking for both of us. 23 Q. When you say there are certain precautions, why do 24 precautions need to be taken? 25 A, They should not be used in such a way that skin is WATER PCB-SD0000060597 Papageorge - 6 1 exposed, nor should any vapors that result from heating 2 these materials be inhaled. Those are the primary 3 precautions. 4 Q. Why should you not be exposed by skin to PCB's? 5 A, Eventually, and it varies from person to person, the 6 PCI^Ls..-will--remove the oils from the skin creating a 7 chapped skin condition, a reddening of the skin, 8 drying, cracking. And, this is why we caution 9 individuals exposed to them not to get it on their 10 skin; if so, to wash it off quickly. 11 Q. The other one I think you mentioned was the vapors 12 from having heated PCB's? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. What effect does that have? 15 A. If enough vapors are inhaled, it would irritate the 16 breathing system, the nostrils, the lungs, and create 17 respiratory irritation and sometimes,if it's overdone 18 it can be a serious impact on the respiratory system. 19 Q. What does it do to the respiratory system? 20 A. It irritates the mucous membrane and it just hurts 21 like a bad cold. 22 Q. Is it a permanent effect on the mucous membrane? 23 A. No, not to my knowledge. 24 Q. Are there any other reasons you need to take orecautioi} 25 with PCB's, to your knowledge? WATER PCB-SD0000060598 Papageorge - 7 1 A. I'm assuming your question has to so with human 2 exposure? 3 Q. Yes, sir. 4 A. No? I don't know of any others. 5 Q. What's the source of that information about those 6 needs for precautions? Any medical articles or research 7 Monsanto has done? 8 A. The specific source is Monsanto's Medical Department, 9 and they, in turn, conducted animal studies and 10 peruse the literature of any other studies that might 11 haye been done by others or of similar types of 12 c-hemica--ls> . 13 Q. The Medical Department keeps abreast of the current 14 literature in the technical fields in which Monsanto 15 markets products? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. Did you receive that information on needing to take 18 those precautions in 1963 when you first became involved 19 with PCB's? 20 A. Yes; uh-huh. 21 Q. To your knowledge, did Monsanto know about those needs 22 for precautions prior to 1963? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. How far back? 25 A. As best I remember, as far back as Monsanto made and WATER PCB-SD0000060599 Papageorge - 8 1 sold the material. 2 Q. Nineteen twenty-nine or something like that? 3 A. Well, Monsanto was not, as a company, involved until 4 the early '30's. They bought a predecessor company 5 that made the material in 1929. 6 Q. Who was that company? 7 A. Swan Chemical Company. 8 Q. Was that a merger or complete purchase or just ourcha;e 9 of the PCB function of the Swan Company? 10 A. As I understand it, it was a purchase of all the assets 11 of Swan Chemical Company. 12 Q. Where was Swan Chemical located? 13 A. As I remember, the home office was in Birmingham, 14 Alabama; they had a plant in Anniston, Alabama; a 15 plant in Camden, New Jersey;and a plant in St. Louis. 16 Q. Did you have any dealings with Sangamo at any point ir 17 time? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. When was that first involvement with Sangamo? 20 A. Nineteen seventy. 21 Q. In what capacity? 22 A. I was at that time assigned the responsibility for 23 keeping abreast of PCB. issnps. And, as part of my 24 assignment, I visited the Sangamo plant in Pickens, 25 South Carolina. WATER PCB-SD0000060600 Papageorge - 9 1 Q. Prior to that visit in 1970, you had not had any 2 correspondence or communications with Sangamo? 3 A. Not personally, no. 4 Q. Did you have files to review in preparation for your 5 visit? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. What were those files that you reviewed? 8 A. Oh, I don't remember exactly, but certainly the -- th^ fa 9 there were a -- a name oh a list of customers. 10 Q. Sort of a customer file of correspondence and sales 11 and that type thing? 12 A. And, the type of products they purchased. 13 Q. What was the purpose of your visit in 1970? 14 A. To share with the appropriate people at the plant what 15 we at Monsanto had learned about PCB1s from laboratories 16 and governmental agencies in this country, and we had 17 just returned from a trip in Europe and we wanted to 18 share what we learned with them there and -- just let them 19 know all we knew, I guess -- that was our intent real fy- 20 Q. Did you go to Europe? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. So, when you said we went to Europe, we, Monsanto, 23 you are one of the team that went to Europe? 24 A, Yes. 25 Q. To do what over there? WATER PCB-SD0000060601 Papageorge - 10 1 A. We talked with the governmental representatives in ---- ------------------------------ --------- '~ ~ ' ----------------------- ------------------------------- -------------------------------------- TZT 2 some of the European countries; we talked with representa 3 tives of companies in Europe, Western Europe that made 4 PCB's; and we talked with representatives of universities 5 that had analyzed for PCB1s and knew something about 6 the sampling and analytical methodologies. 7 Q. How long did you stay in Europe? 8 A. About a month; three weeks to a month. 9 Q. How many people went with you? 10 A. Two others. 11 Q. Who were they? 12 A. Elmer - -W_- h> eeler -- 13 MR. WHITE: I'm sorry? 14 WITNESS: Elmer Wheeler. 15 A. -- and Robert Keller. 16 Q. Are they still with Monsanto? 17 A. Dr. Keller is. Mr. Wheeler is retired. 18 Q, In St. Louis? 19 A. No. 20 Q. Where? 21 A. I'm not certain. 22 Q. Did you also have some information from vour own 23 Medical Department or medical directors on the sttt^ieji 24 you mentioned earlier that Monsanto had been doing on 25 PCB's, animal studies, I think you mentioned? i WATER PCB-SD0000060602 Paoageorge - 11 A, Yes, we did. Q. Were those animal studies ongoing in 1963 when you first became involved with PCB? No. In 1963, the original studies had been terminate^ completed. Q. Did you have access to the final reports on those studies in '63? A. No. Q. They were in existence, but you didn't see them until 10 later? 11 A. That is correct. 12 Q. When did you see them? 13 A. Sometime in 1970. I don't remember exactly which 14 month. 15 Q. Who did you meet with at Monsanto in 1970 when you 16 came -- I'm sorry -- with Sangamo in 1970 when you 17 visited Sangamo? 18 A. I only remember one name, a Mr. Hydrick. 19 Q. First name? 20 A. It stafts with a J. 21 Q. Where did you visit Sangamo? 22 A. In Pickens, South Carolina. 23 Q. Had you been to any other Sangamo location or head 24 quarters prior to the visit to Pickens? 25 A. No. WATER PCB-SD0000060603 P E N 6A 0 C O .. BAYO NNE. N.J. Paoageorge - 12 1 Q. How many people at Sangamo did you meet with? Was it 2 just this one man or was there a team and he was the 3 top dog? 4 A. There was a group. I don't know if I would call them 5 a team and I don't know if he was the top individual, 6 but there was a group of people,.several oeople. 7 Q. Did they have anyone from locations other than Pickens 8 present? 9 A. I don't remember. That was not discussed, to my 10 knowledge. 11 Q. Have you ever had any dealings with a comoany called 12 Schlumberger? 13 A. Yes, but not with PCB's. I don't want to mislead you. 14 Q. Alright. They have some corporate relationship with 15 Sangamo, is that your understanding? 16 A. That's what I was told recently. I was not aware of 17 it. 18 Q. So, you've had dealings with Schlumberger totally 19 independent of Sangamo and PCB's? 20 A. That is correct. 21 Q. Did any of that involvement have anything to do in 22 South Carolina? 23 A. No. 24 Q. What were the conclusions of those animal studies you 25 say you saw in 1970 done by the Medical Department of WATER PCB-SD0000060604 Paoageorge - 13 1 Monsanto with regard to PCB? 2 In 1970, the information we had on completed studies 3 indicated that we could expect the respiratory 4 irritation that I mentioned earlier; we could expfect 5 skin problems that I discussed earlier. That's the 6 extent of our knowledge in mid-1970. 7 Q. Were you aware at that time of the Japanese studies? 8 A. I'm not aware of any Japanese studies. 9 Q. Even as of today? 10 A. I may have the wrong definition of studies. 11 Q. In Japan in '68 or so, they had some studies of PCB's 12 and the hazards and dangers or precautions associated 13 therewith. 14 A. There were investigations in 1968, not dtudies. 15 Q. Are you aware of that today? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. Were you aware of that in 1970/ of those investigation^? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. What is your understanding of what those investigation 20 concluded? 21 After talking with representatives of the Japanese 22 industry and government and hearing their presentation s 23 at meetings in this country, I concluded that individ iials 24 were exposed to a cooking oil or an oil intended for 25 human consumption that had been contaminated with PCB WATER PCB-SD0000060605 PEHGAO CO .. BAXO HNE. H.J. Papageorge - 14 1 and that many ailments were reported; nauseas, headaches 2 nervousness, pigmented infants. I don't recall all the 3 others; there were a list of problems that were rep<J>rtec 4 And, at that time in 1970, there was still some que ?tior 5 as to what was the cause of all these symptoms that were 6 being described. And, later, the conclusion -- als<t> 7 I talked with the Food and Drug Administration indi^idui 8 who went to Japan to personally investigate this inefcide: 9 The conclusion,as I understand it today, is that there 10 was a contaminant created in this situation, in thif 11 accident, that is perceived to be the cause of thes 12 symptoms. 13 Q. What comtaminant? 14 A. I believe it's the chlorinated dibenzo-furans. I 15 don't know which one, but it's one of the chlorinated 16 or one or more of the chlorinated dibenzo-furans. 17 Did you make Sangamo aware of those Japanese 18 investigations in 1970 when you visited? 19 A. That was part of my discussion points. 20 Q. Did you tell Sangamo in 1970 any levels of PCB's t hi t 21 were either hazardous or dangerous levels or which was 22 a safe level, any parts per million, or any types of 23 units at which there would be a risk or no risk, wh 24 I would refer to as a threshold limit value? 25 That's right; there were threshold limit values WATER_PCB-SD0000060606 Papaqeorqe - 15 (' 1 established before that 1970 discussion. And, the 2 users of PCB1s were awarp nf fhnsp f and all I had to 3 do was review once more the fact that they existed and 4 that the levels in the workplace should be kept below 5 those numbers. 6 Q. What were those numbers in 1970? 7 A. For one of the PCB's, if memory serves me right, 8 the aroclor 1254, which is the 54 percent chlorinated 9 PCB, the recommended level, as I remember, was a half -----^ * 10 i^tilligram per cubic meter of air. ___ 11 Q. Sangamo was aware of that at your visit in 1970? 12 A. Yes. (, 13 Q. How about for the 1242? 14 A. Twelve forty-two, it was one milligram per cubic 15 meter, if I remember it correctly. 16 Q. What other information did you and Sangamo discuss at that 17 1970 visit? 18 A. We discussed the fact that we had strong indication 19 that PCB's were being found out in the environment 20 in areas that were surprising in that they were not 21 necessarily industrial areas. Since this was an 22 industrial chemical, that was the surprising feature. 23 Q. When you say not in industrial, you mean in environmer tal 24 areas such as Twelve Mile River and the banks of the 25 river? WATER PCB-SD0000060607 Papageorge - 16 1 A. I don't know the Twelve Mile River, but -- 2 Q. The river running by and away from Sangamo Weston 3 in Pickens County. 4 A. I don't know. 5 Q. Where did you hear then that these PCB's were being 6 found? 7 A. They were being found in the Great Lakes. 8 Q. Oh, you weren't talking specifically about Pickens? 9 A. No, no, no. These are reports coming in -- they were 10 being found off the :coast of California ; they were found 11 up in Sweden, 1 in forests, in pine needles and in lakes 12 and riverstreams in Sweden. That's the kind of 13 information we shared with the Pickens representative 14 And we also shared with them that we had refined the 15 analytical methods and assured ourselves that the methodis 16 used by these investigators were appropriate, that they 17 were getting the proper data, that it was not'a misle.adinL<ng 18 number that they were seeing. And, we also told them 19 that up to that point, it was only the 54 oercent PCB 20 that was being reported, which was, to us, a still 21 puzzling question, because what about the others, why 22 aren't they being found. So, our purpose was to bri 23 them up to date on what we knew. And we told them we 24 had some animal studies still underway and the report 25 wasn't in yet and also that we couldn't let the PCB's WATER PCB-SD0000060608 Papageorge - 17 1 get into the environment. By we, I'm talking about a 2 of us involved with them the users, the manufacturers, 3 as well as the consumer. And, we re-emphasized the need 4 to control the escaoe to the environment. That was the 5 purpose of the visit. 6 Did you receive any information that there was, in 7 fact, any escape into the environment from the Sangam<|) 8 plant in Pickens County? 9 A. No. 10 Q. Did you ask that question? 11 A. I can't-say specific for that plant, but it was a typical 12 question thatwe would ask. And, at that point in tim^, 13 the methodology for analyzing was not available, so 14 I don't know how anybody could have said with certainly: 15 Yes; we've analyzed and we have determined it is 16 escapement-. 17 Q. I thought you said Monsanto verified that the reports 18 of PCB's in the Great Lakes and out in California and 19 in Sweden were, in fact, accurate reports? 20 A. Correct. 21 Q So, the technology must have been available in those 22 locations to verify. 23 The technology was available in half a dozen labora^ori 24 in the world. We were in 1970 sharing that technology 25 with our customers. So, we handed them a copy at this meeting: WATER PCB-SD0000060609 BAYO NNE. N.J. Papageorge - 18 1 Here's the methodology; you either develop in your owij 2 laboratory or find a nearby laboratory to help you 3 analyze samples. That: was another purpose. 4 Q. So, that document you gave them would allow them then 5 to go out and determine whether or not there was any 6 environmental escape from their own facility? 7 A. That is right. That was the intent of that. 8 Q. Was that document such that you would need special 9 equipment or was it just the methodology more than th^ 10 equipment that was unique to that evaluation? 11 A. The equipment at that time was unique and not very 12 common. So, in almost every case, the laboratory had 13 to buy the equipment. 14 Q. Did the report that you handed them go into the details 15 about what type of equipment was needed and that type 16 thing? 17 A. It referred to the equipment Monsanto used. It did n<j>t 18 try to evaluate other available equivalent equipment. 19 Q, In this visit that you made in 1970, was it specifically 20 aimed at Monsanto -- at Sangamo or was it a program 21 of going to everv customer of Monsanto who was purchasing 22 PCB1s? 23 A. It was a program of going to every dielectric customer 24 that was still purchasing or had purchased PCB1s from 25 v--M---o--n----s--a--n---t-o---.------ WATER PCB-SD0000060610 Papageorge - 19 1 Q. Was it limited to purchases of 1254 or just PCB's in 2 general? 3 A. PCB's for dielectrics, electrical equipment use. So, 4 it would cover the 1221, 1242, 1232, 1254, 1260, 1240 5 all -- almost all of them. 6 Q. What was the proper method of disposing of PCB waste 7 in 1324? 8 A. The proper method in 1970 was landfilling in a permitted 9 facility, permitted by local authorities or State 10 authorities, whatever the oermitting authority is. 11 Q. Did that ever change? 12 A. Yes; it did change through the years. 13 Q. When did it change after 1970? 14 A. Starting in 1971, Monsanto had an incinerator that we 15 installed specifically for destroying liquid wastes, 16 pumpable waste that could be pumped to a unit and 17 burned. About th&t time, as I remember, there were 18 some commercial incinerating facilities either just 19 starting up or planned. So, that was a change that 20 was evolving. And, in later years, the Environmental 21 Protection Agency, the Federal Agency, established 22 some rules as to where PCB's could be land-buried. 23 Q. In 1970, you said the use of landfills. 24 A, Uh-huh. 25 Q. Was that an industry practice or was there any specif ic WATER PCB-SD0000060611 Papageorge - 20 1 requirement from any Federal, State agency or from 2 the manufacturer such as Monsanto to its customer? 3 A. The requirement on the part of the regulatory 4 authorities was general in that it referred to 5 chemicals. So, the permission that was granted for 6 many of these landfills was to distinguish between 1 " " " - "* 7 what it was called a sanitary landfill,that takes care 8 of normal household wastes, and chemical landfills , 9 Different permission were granted, okay? 10 Q. Who was setting that up? Was that the Federal 11 Government? 12 A. No. The Federal Government in 1970 was really -- the 13 organization was not in place just yet. FPA was just 14 organizing, so they did not have, to my knowledge, 15 any regulations established as yet. 16 Q. So, that was a State regulation you were talking about ? 17 A. State or in some areas counties or cities^ municipaliti es. 18 Q. Did you have any familiarity with the South Carolina 19 regulations on that point? 20 A. No; not per se, no. 21 Q. So, the statement you made about using the chemical 22 landfills is more just the normal regulations for stat es 23 nationwide or - 24 A. It's the typical regulation, yes, sir. And, it was 25 up to each customer to check with his own locality--to PENGAD C O .. BAYO NNE. N.J. WATER PCB-SD0000060612 Papageorge - 21 1 determine where he could go with his waste. 2 Q. So, the first time that Monsanto ever used an 3 incinerator to dispose of PCB waste was in 1971, 4 or did I read too much into that statement? 5 A. Yes; yes, that is correct. 6 Q. Prior to that time, had the research facility or Medical 7 Department done research into using incineration as 8 disposal for PCB waste? 9 A. Prior to that time. Well, we did some research and 10 studies before the incinerator was designed and built 11 Those studies began in the late '60's and into the 12 '70's and then the unit was placed on order -- and 13 designed based on those studies, and finally it was 14 placed in service in *71. 15 Q. In Anniston? 16 A. No; in Illinois. 17 Q. What physical location in Illinois? 18 A. That's the Monsanto plant in Sauget, S-a-u-g-e-t, 19 Illinois. 20 Q. Was that under your control and supervision, -- 21 A. Yes, sir. 22 Q. -- the incineration project? 23 A. Yes, sir. 24 Q. Have you ever given any prior depositions such as " ' 1 -> 25 we're doing today? WATER PCB-SD0000060613 Papageorge - 22 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. Approximately how many? 3 A. Six, eight, ten; about a dozen. 4 Q. Have you ever given any prior trial testimony? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. About how many? 7 A. About three that I remember, three. 8 Q. I'm going to ask you to try to identify them, unless, Frank, 9 you might have a list of all that. 10 MR. RICHARDSON: Frank, do you have a 11 list? 12 MR. MARION: At this time, I do not. 13 Not that I don't know of, I don't 14 have a list, no. 15 Q. Mr. Papageorge, we've got to go through it. How about 16 start with the depositions and tell me case names and 17 approximate dates. 18 A. I may not remember the case names in the formal fashicn, 19 but - 20 Q. You can refer to it as the Westinghouse case or what 21 ever. 22 A. There was a North Carolina poultry case, in which 1 geve 23 deposition. 24 Q. Do you remember the plaintiff's counsel in that case? 25 A. No. WATER PCB-SD0000060614 Papageorge - 2.3 lbDic 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q. It was in where, around Raleigh? Do yu remember where' A. I don't remember Raleigh, North Carolina. I remember Greensboro. Q. Have you got a file that has all these old depositions in it? A. I don't have any files. Q. Does Monsanto have a file with all your old deposition in it? A. I don't know. Q. Do you not ever-see^thfese depositions when they come back? A. Yes. Q. You do? A. Uh-huh. Q. What do you do with them when you finish reading them' A. I send them back to the Legal Department. Q. If you wanted to see one, you'd call Tom or one of his people and ask them for it? A. Yes. Q. Alright, sir; the next deposition? A. These are not in chronological order; just as I recall them. Q. I understand. A. I was deposed in Knoxville in a General Electric transformer case. I was deposed in New Hampshire'in i. WATER PCB-SD0000060615 Papageorge - 24 1 mink case, m-i-n-k. 2 Q. What kind of mink? Is that the name of a company? 3 A. No, no; these are the animals that are used for fur 4 coats, ladies' coats. 5 Q. PCB's were contaminating the minks? 6 A. That was the allegation, yes. I was deposed in a cas4 7 involving a dental laboratory using one of.our chemicals 8 in the mold formation or construction. 9 Q. What stcite? 10 A. The deposition took place in Missouri, but the case 11 was, as I remember, in Michigan. 12 Q. Alright, sir. 13 A. Speaking of Michigan, I was deposed in a dairy farm 14 case in Michigan. And, let's see, I was also deposed 15 in Indiana in a dairy cattle case. There was a case 16 out in, I believe it was, Montana, a transformer case 17 in a packing house. I believe I have them all. I 18 can't remember anymore. 19 Q. Of those, other than the mink case, how many involved 20 animals as opposed to personal injury to humans? 21 A. All but the dental laboratory case involved animals - ....... ----- -- -- i 22 or birds, chicken or cattle. 23 Q. Now, let's go through your trial testimony. What cas| 24 have you testified in? 25 I testified in the General Electric transformer case BAYONNE, N.J. WATER PCB-SD0000060616 Papageorge - 25 1 in Knoxville and the mink case in Mew Hampshire and th4 2 dairy farm case in Michigan. I believe that's it. 3 Did any of those involve a manufacturing facility 4 that used the PCB's as ratv materials, and I'm saying tjiat 5 as opposed to a facility which used an end product of 6 a manufacturing facility using PCB? 7 No; in none of those cases was a manufacturing plant 8 or its activities directly involved. 9 To your knowledge, has Monsanto ever been sued on suclj 10 a case besides this one that we brought? 11 Oh, to mv knowledge? That reminds me of another 12 deposition. There was a case up in Waukegan Harbor. 13 Q. Illinois? 14 A. Waukegan, it's just off Milwaukee. This has to do 15 with a customer who used PCB's in the resulting 16 contamination of the harbor. I was deposed on that 17 case. And,that's thecnly situation I'm aware of where 18 a marmf ar--l-nri ng farej-.U.-hy associated with a PCB 19 contamination allegation. 20 Q. And, what was the manufacturing facility there? 21 A, They made engines. 22 Q. When did Monsanto last make PCB's? 23 A. Nineteen seventy-seven. 24 Q. When did they discontinue the manufacture of PCB's? 25 A Well, it's a combination of many factors that werd WATER PCB-SD0000060617 Papageorge - 26 1 taken into consideration. By 1977, we, of course, 2 had withdrawn from many of the uses that had existed 3 through the 130's-, '40's, '50*8 and '60*5. It appeared 4 that many of the previous users had found acceptable 5 alternates. That included the dielectric application^ 6 The industry had informed us that they had found 7 alternates that were not as good but acceotable. 8 Monsanto, as a company, just didn't feel that a man 9 made chemical should be found out in the environment 10 the way PCB's were found. And, although we had 11 initially thought that certain applications,because 12 of the benefits PCB's could offer,could be managed 13 and controlled , we found that we were perhaps 14 unrealistic. No matter how closed a closed system 15 was, it still leaked and the material still could get 16 away. And, even with the electrical industry where 17 fire safety was a very important consideration, we fornd 18 that transformers and capacitors still had maintenance 19 problems and still PCB's would get into the environmert 20 So, Monsanto decided that its good name and its intent 21 to do what's right just almost demanded that we get out 22 of the PCB business. And, we finally got our customer 23 to accept the alternates they had at that time, and 24 we told them that as of a certain date, no more. 25 Monsanto did not manufacture or sell those alternates? WATER PCB-SD0000060618 Papageorge - 27 1 A. Very few of them did we have in alternate form. 2 Q. In the dielectric area, did you have any alternates? 3 A. In the dielectric, we didn't get any of that business 4 anymore. We did not have the alternate. 5 Q. What was that alternate? 6 A. I can't claim to he -- to know totally. But, it was 7 my understanding that for transformers the industry 8 went to -- either back to mineral oil or to what is 9 called a gas-filled dry units or they used silicones, 10 silocone liquids, I believe that's the three alternates 11 that they had. 12 Q. Why was it such a concern of Monsanto that PCB's 13 being in the environment was a concern? 14 A. Well, it's a lot of subjectivity. It's a case of 15 wrestling with the concept of is it right to make a 16 chemical that finds its way into the environment just 17 about everywhere you sample? is this really the right 18 thing to do. And, apDarently the environment can't 19 metabolize it, can't degrade it; there're some creatures 20 in the environment that will consume it and it builds 21 up in their bodies, and they, in turn, are consumed bv 22 others, and you may have heard the expression, the 23 bio-accumulation that goes up the food chain. And, 24 Monsanto just didn't feel it was the right kind of 25 business to be in. WATER PCB-SD0000060619 Paoaqeprge - 28 i 1 The ingestion in that food chain by a human being, dops 2 that have any effect on the human? 3 I'm not one qualified to say that. It's my understanding 4 that there are some allegations that if you get enough, 5 it might have some kinds of adverse effects. This is 6 why the FDA established some limits in certain foods, 7 and this is why some State authorities would establish -- 8 would announce guidelines of how many -- how many oounds 9 of fish to eat in a week or some such guideline to he! 10 people keep below what was'perceived to be an acceptable 11 level. 12 Do you know what those acceptable levels were at any 13 point in time? 14 I don't know. Personally, I didn't memorize any 15 number. 16 Q. And, you said you, of course, are knowledgable, but 17 that's not your area of specialty. 18 A. No. I'm not a toxicologist or medical doctor, so -- 19 Q. Who at Monsanto would you call who would be knowledgable 20 about that, what department or what group of toxicolc gis 21 or scientists? 22 Well, personally, I would call the Director of our 23 Medical Department. 24 Q. Who is that now? 25 A. George Rousch, R-o-u-s-c-h. WATER PCB-SD0000060620 Paoageorge - 29 1 Q. In St. Louis? 2 A. In St. Louis. 3 Q. How large a staff does he have? 4 A. I don't know the exact number, but -5 Q. Two or three doctors or a hundred of them? 6 A. There are about a hundred, a little over a hundred 7 total people, and I would say three-fourths of them 8 are professionals; industrial hygienists, toxicologists, 9 epidemiologists, medicial occupation doctors, nurses. 10 O. How big was that department in 1963 when you started 11 working with PCB's? 12 A. It consisted of three professionals and two secretaries. 13 Q. When did you come with Monsanto? 14 A. In 1951. 15 Q. How many were in that department in '51? 16 A. Three people. 17 Q. Do you remember those three people? 18 A. Yes 19 Q. Who were they? 20 A. Dr. Emmet Kelly, the Director; Jack Garrett, at that 21 time, the Industrial Hygienist; and Elmer Wheeler, who 22 v;as the Manager of -- I'm not certain of this -- 23 Environmental Health or some such title. He's the 24 one who concerned himself with toxicology studies and 25 placing of these studies. WATER PCB-SD0000060621 Papageorge - 30 1 Q. What is his name? 2 A. Elmer Wheeler, W-h-e-e-l-e-r. 3 Q. Were those same three there in '51 also there in '63? 4 A, Yes. 5 Q. How long did they remain in that department? Are they 6 still there? 7 A. Mr. Garrett is still there. Dr. Kelly retired in 1974 8 and Mr. Wheeler retired shortly thereafter. 9 Q. Do you know where Kelly and Wheeler are? 10 A. I don't know where Mr. Wheeler is. Dr. Kelly is in 11 the St. Louis area. 12 Q . Was one of those specifically assigned the PCB project 13 or did they all work on it? 14 A. They all worked on it in different ways. 15 Q. Depending on their expertise? 16 A. Correct. 17 Q. Are they the ones that conducted these animal studies 18 that we've talked about? 19 A. They didn't personally conduct the studies; they founc 20 the appropriate laboratory that can do this kind of 21 work and placed the order, if you will, with the 22 laboratory and followed the studies. 23 Q. They were the liaison? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. Is that department resDonsible for them disseminating WATER PCB-SD0000060622 1 health-related issues among the Monsanto Company? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. Does it also disseminate health-related issues to the 4 customers of Monsanto? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. Does it also have any input into the labelling or 7 information being fed out to customers? 8 A. Yes. ' 9 Q. Did the PCB's being sold by Monsanto ever contain any 10 type of warnina or caution label? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. At what point in time do you first remember it having ( 13 a caution label? 14 A. There were orecautionary statements on labels as far 15 back as I can remember. 16 Q. Even before 1963? 17 A. Oh, yes; yes. 18 Q. And, it changed throughout the years? 19 A. As new information was available, they would revise 20 the label to reflect that new information, yes. 21 Q. At some point in time, did Monsanto decide to go to 22 a closed system that you mentioned earlier of using 23 the PCB's or as a use for PCB's only in a closed syst 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. Was that a Monsanto decision? PENGAO C O .. BAYO NNE. N.J. WATER PCB-SD0000060623 Papageorge - 32 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. What does a closed system mean? 3 A. Well, for that program, the closed systems were 4 defined as two types : one was the use in electrical 5 equipment, such as capacitors, transformers, motor 6 switches, electromagnet devices; and then the other 7 was the heat transfer application. Those two 8 applications were perceived to be the type that were 9 controllable, manageable, in terms of escape of PCB1s. 10 Q, When did that take place, that company Dolicv to go 11 to a closed system use only? 12 A. That was approved by our senior management in 1970. 13 It became effective immediately and was in terms of ( 14 evolving into a situation where those two were the 15 only uses by early 1971, as I remember. 16 Q. And, the reason for going to the closed system was 17 what? 18 A. The primary reason is to maintain the benefits, safety 19 benefits, of PCB's in high energy,arching electrical 20 systems and in high temperature heating systems. And, 21 in order to retain the benefit of PCB's and not impact 22 the environment, we decided we will terminate the sel] 23 of PCB's for such things as varnishes and paints and 24 printing inks and carbonless copy paper and all thos 25 miscellaneous uses that just easily get out into the BAYO NNE. N.J. WATER PCB-SD0000060624 Panageorge - 33 / l 1 environment. And, by controlling the escape into the 2 environment, we thought -- we were hopeful that we 3 could impress really on society, which has the final 4 vote, that this is an appropriate use for PCB's and 5 we think that use should be continued. That was our 6 intent. 7 Q. Were there alternatives in the marketplace for these 8 capacitors and transformers back as early as 1970? 9 A. Not to my knowledge. In fact, our customers insisted 10 there weren't. 11 Q. Including Sangamo? Did you specifically talk to 12 Sangamo about that? ( 13 A. I don't remember any specific company that's in the 14 electro business making these statements. But, as a 15 group, and I met with them in groups, that was the 16 opinion of the industry. :e 17 Q. These groups you're talking about, they had some kind w1 18 of trade association? 8o 19 A. Yes. PENGAD C O .. BAYO NNE. N.J. 2 20 Q. What kind of groups are you talking about? u i>* 21 A. They do have trade associations. But, the group I ha< 1 a o: 22 in mind was the National Electrical Manufacturers <o 65 23 Association. .'.S: 24 Q. You would go to their conference or annual convention 25 of some kind? WATER PCB-SD0000060625 Papageorge - 34 1 A. I have attended a few of those, yes. 2 Q. For the purpose of discussing PCB's? 3 A. Yes. I was asked on several occasions to be on their 4 program. 5 Q. What years, do you recall? 6 A. It went from 1970 through '75 off and on. 7 Q. And, you say that there was some question about the 8 alternative products to use to replace the PCB's? 9 A. Uh-huh. 10 Q. But, apparently at some point in time, either they weij 11 developed or they just actually went on to other 12 alternative products, is that correct? 13 A. That's right. 14 Q. About when was that? 15 A. Nineteen seventy-seven, as I recall. 16 Q. Well, you said that that alternative wasn't as good 17 but was adequate? 18 A. That's my understanding, uh-huh. 19 Q. Why wasn't it as good? 20 A. Well, when they reverted to the mineral oils, that 21 created a unit that could no longer be installed in 22 doors. If it were, it had to be put in a vault with 23 special fire walls, with special firefighting deluge 24 systems, alarm systems, under special insurance rates 25 and the like. These are all the trade-offs that had WATER PCB-SD0000060626 Papageorge - 35 1 to be made to go to, say, the mineral oil. When they 2 went to the silicone oils, the unit of a given size 3 could not perform the job that it could have with 4 PCB's in it. So, it was a lower rated unit. When 5 they went to the air-cooled or gas units, whereas the\f 6 could get by previously with a small unit to perform, 7 they had to end up with a monster unit, and that 8 required more space and the like. So, in every case, 9 there was a trade-off, 10 Q. And, the trade-off was, for those inconveniences, the| 11 hopeful elimination of the dangers of the PCB's? 12 A. I find the use of the word dangers difficult because 13 they introduce additional dangers with these material 14 So, the real advantage in changing was to get away from 15 this situation of having to constantly monitor and 16 protedt PCB's from escaping that unit. 17 Q. You use your own words; I'm not trying to put words 18 in your mouth. The reasons that you needed to 19 constantly protect the PCB's from escaping that unit 20 was what? 21 A. To keep it from getting down into the sewers, into 22 the rivers, into the lakes, into the land, picked up 23 by the growing vegetation, in the air. Wherever it 24 would eventually end up, we didn't want it there. 25 That was the intent. WATER PCB-SD0000060627 FOKH 2094 FENCAD CO .. BAYONNE. N .J. 07002 Papaqeorqe - 36 1 Q. PCB's are only man-made; they don't apoear in the 2 environment naturally without being man-made? 3 A. There is some speculation that some of the PCB's can 4 be produced nathrally. But, the studies to confirm 5 all of that have never really been carried out. 6 Q. Do you believe that? 7 A. To a degree, yes. I don't think that man can make 8 things that nature can't really. As long as there's 9 chlorine out there and we know that it's there and th4 10 salt water and the like and we know there's hydrogen 11 and carbon and there's engergy, it's possible. I don 12 know the probability, however. 13 Q. But, what you were seeing in 1970 at the Great Lakes 14 and in the Pacific, on the California Coast, and Swedeif 15 in your mind, that wasn't being created naturally 16 in the environment; that was being generated from a 17 man-made chemical and then put in the environment through this environmental exposures that we've discussed 18 19 A. That's our conclusion. 20 Q. Did you receive any information from Sangamo in 1970 21 when you visited? 22 A. I certainly received information in terms of what thei| 23 plant looked like and what their operations were like 24 Q. Did you receive information on their orior disposal 25 practices? WATER PCB-SD0000060628 Papageorge - 37 1 A. Yes; that would have been a normal topic for discussion. 2 Q. What was th&t, do you know? 3 A. I really don't remember, I really don't. 4 Q. Do you remember anything in their process of manufacturin' 5 a disposal that was of concern to you with their handling 6 of PCB or did you evaluate that or were you just 7 there to talk to them? 8 A. Their plant was typical of the other capacitor plants 9 that I visited. So, nothing stands out as being 10 abnormal. The problems that,in general,all of the 11 capacitor manufacturers had were so similar that my 12 advice really boiled down to: Do all you can to keep 13 it away from water. And, at that time, we were planning 14 for the incinerators, so I suggested: If you can, sthre 15 your liquids and eventually we'll be able to take it 16 from you and destroy it and burn it? and if there werfe 17 any solid materials, like capacitors that had failed the 18 test or sawdust or gloves or what have you, rags, mak 19 sure they're buried somewhere where they won't get nefir 20 water. That was my message as I visited all the 21 capacitor plants. 22 Q. And, you found the typical capacitor plants not doin^ 23 those things? 24 A. At that point in time, yes. This was the state of the 25 art. The material was not considered to be a problem WATER PCB-SD0000060629 Papageorge - 38 1 what little bit would get on the floors, would be washed 2 down with a hose. 3 Q. And, out into the sewage system? 4 A. Whatever system each plant had. Some had sewage 5 systems; some had treating plants. It varied on the 6 locality and the company. And, then the burial would 7 be whatever the practice for the whole Diant was in 8 terms of getting rid of its solid wastes. It was 9 not at that point in time considered by anyone as 10 requiring special attention. And, what I was doing w^s 11 saying: From now on, let's give it special attention. 12 Q. Why keep it away from water? 13 A. Well, -- 14 0. By it, I mean the PCB's. 15 A. -- that seemed to be the way that PCB's were spread 16 through the environment, either as part of the water 17 itself, but more likely as particles in water that 18 were carried along with the waterways. So, this is 19 how we thought we could explain PCB's used in one 20 spot being found in a remote area,conveyed by water 21 systems. 22 Q. Did you receive any information with regard to 23 Sangamo's reaction to what you were telling them? 24 A. I got encouragement that they understood the need for 25 this, they were very anxious to retain the use of thi^ WATER PCB-SD0000060630 BAYO NNE, N,J. Papageorge - 39 1 material in their product, and I walked away with an 2 assurance that they were sensitive and would do the 3 right thing. 4 Q. Did you generate reports as a result of your visit? 5 A. On occasion, I would write back to the representative 6 my impressions, second thoughts that I had. 7 Q. In this situation, it would be right back to Sangamo, 8 your customer? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. Would you have internal. documents reviewing your visit} 11 and what was discussed and who you met with and -- 12 A. Not normally, no. These would be discussed at a 13 group meeting, sort of a feedback to the rest of the 14 committee that I had as to our observations and findi rigs. 15 Q. Who was your committee that was working on this projecj 16 in 1970? 17 A. It consisted of manufacturing representatives--these 18 are all Monsanto people -19 Q. Yes, sir. 20 A. -- it consisted --* 21 Q. Have you got any names as you go through? 22 A. I'll try to remember them all. Gee, it's been so longj 23 Q. Have you got a file on this that would show all these 24 people's names? 25 A. I used to have a file. I don't know if it still exist) s. WATER PCB-SD0000060631 Paoageorge - 40 ( 1 Q. That would be a personal file? 2 A. No, no, no; this is a -3 Q, Monsanto? 4 A. -- Monsanto file that went with the function. When I 5 was removed from the function, the files were turned 6 over. 7 Q. What was the name of the particular file? 8 A. I don't know that I had any -- 9 Q. PCB file or -- 10 A. Yeah; that was a -- that was it. PCB Issue or some 11 such name. 12 Q. I'm sure we can get all those names. Did you have any 13 follow-up with Sa,ngamo either in Pickens or any other 14 location? 15 A. My only personal follow-up was in a letter that I wro 16 back following my visit. I remember that. 17 Q. To whom. 18 A. To Mr. Hydrick. 19 Q. When was that letter written approximately? 20 A. Well, as I remember, we visited the plant in June of 21 1970. And, I completed my tour of other plants and 22 came back and wrote it. So, it had to be early 23 July, 1970. 24 Q. What did you tell him? 25 A. I told him the thoughts that I just expressed about WATER PCB-SD0000060632 PENGAO CO .. BAYO NNE. N.J. Papageorge - 41 1 keep it away from water; you might consider storing 2 your liquid waste and we don't be in a position to tike 3 it from you and burn it: your solid materials, make 4 certain that wherever you put them that it's an approved 5 site away from water, because too many sites in that 6 at that point in time were located near river banks a^d 7 so on. And, I was telling them keep it away from 8 any body of water. 9 Q. Are you talking about the water solely for the movemeijit 10 of the PCB's or was there any other'reaction or the 11 way it settled into the bottom or anything else or 12 the fish eating the PCB's or -- 13 A. That was part of the presence, yes. The fish were a 14 good indicator of thepresence ofPCB's in thatsysteifi 15 water system. 16 Q. How did you correlate finding PCB's in fish with the 17 potential contamination of the creek? Does it have t<|> 18 be a certain level of parts per million or some unit 19 for you to say: Alright;we've got aproblem in this 20 creek? 21 A. Well, for me personally, sav, any validated analyses 22 of the presence of a PCB in fish, irrespective of its 23 level, would be an indicator that that fish was exposed 24 to PCB somewhere. Now, depending on the species of 25 fish, whether they are migratory in terms of where WATER PCB-SD0000060633 Papaqeorcre -42 1 do they spend their lifetime or whether they're 2 bottom feeders or surface feeders, each of these 3 will exhibit different amounts of PCB's and they will 4 also metabolize it differently so when analyzed, it 5 will show up differently to the analysists. But, just 6 the fact that it's in the fish means that it was exposec.. 7 And, we didn't think that that was appropriate; it 8 shouldn't be. 9 Q. Why not? What effect would it have on the fish? 10 A. I don't know of any effect on the fish themselves. 11 Q. Have you ever noticed any fish kills as a result of 12 PCB's exposures? 13 A, No. 14 Q. Never heard of any? 15 A. That is correct. 16 Q. I presume the same is true with regard to humans. If 17 you find PCB levels in humans, you'd say the same 18 thing? , 19 Yeah. I susoect I have PCB's in me; I suspect every 20 person in this room does. That doesn't make it right, 21 So, -- that was a big motivator to not lose control. 22 Do you have an opinion as to what level of PCB's, for 23 example, in the bloodstream of a human being is reaching 24 the point where it is a danger or health hazard to the t 25 individual? FORM 2 0 *4 PENGAD CO .. BAYONNE. N .J. 07002 WATER PCB-SD0000060634 Papageorge - 43 1 A. No, I don't. I've never heard a number personally. 2 Q. If you wanted to find that out at Monsanto, you would 3 call this Medical Director that we talked about earlier - 4 A. Yes, sir. 5 Q. -- and they would have the expertise in that erea? 6 A. They would have the expertise, yes. I don't know if 7 they would have a number though. I can't -- never 8 having asked, I don't know. 9 Q. Would there be any place else in the body that you 10 know of that you would look to other than the blood 11 stream to determine whether somebody had had exposure 12 to PCB's? 13 A. PCB's are known to accumulate in the fatty tissue. 14 So, the body burden of PCB's in humans is, to my 15 knowledge, reported as the amount found in fatty 16 tissue, adipose tissue. 17 Q. When you say burden, what do you mean body burden? 18 A. It's the amount that the body is carrying or present in 19 the body. It is not just a matter of oassing through 20 and disappearing; it's there constantly. 21 Q. Other than this one letter in July of 1970 you' discusised 22 writing Sangamo after your visit, was there any other 23 correspondence or communication that you had with 24 Sangamo? 25 A. No. WATER PCB-SD0000060635 Papageorge - 44 1 Q. That was it? 2 A. Oh, communication, I had personal contact with 3 individuals from the company. 4 Q. Sangamo? 5 A. Yes, 6 Q. Tell me about that, 7 A. They were represented on a group effort that the 8 electrical industry put together for addressing PCB's 9 They were represented, as I remember, in that group 10 effort. 11 Q. Approximately what point in time? 12 A. Seventy-one through seventy-four. 13 Q. Were you the Monsanto representative on that group 14 effort? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. Who from Sangamo was the representative? 17 A. I don't remember the man's name. 18 Q. It wasn't the same one you knew here in Pickens? 19 A. I don't think so. The individual that was there, I 20 remember served for a short time and then retired, and 21 he was replaced by another individual. 22 Q. What was the name of this group? 23 A. This was a panel put together under the National 24 Electrical Manufacturers Association to come up with 25 guidelines for the industry to use to handle PCB's WATER PCB-SD0000060636 Papaaeorge - 45 1 properly. 2 Q. You don't remember a title or anything like that? 3 A. Well, later we transferred from the National Electrical 4 Manufacturers Association to the American National 5 Standards Institute. And, at that time, we called 6 ourselves the ANSI Committee C107, I think that's the 7 right terminology, Committee CIO7. 8 Q. And, it was basically the same committee under a 9 different heading? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. When did that terminate? 12 A. I'm not certain. I bad to resign from that committee in 13 1975, and it was still active. 14 Q. Why did you have to resign? 15 A. My assignment changed. I was no longer involved with 16 PCB's. I felt it appropriate to,.after four years 17 of chairman of that committee, that someone else 18 assume that duty. 19 Q. Who took your place as the Monsanto representative? 20 A. On that committee? I believe David Wood. David Woocj. 21 Q. Does Mr. Wood visit St. Louis on occasion and come 22 up here with his work? Isn't he still with the companjv? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. Does he visit the United States on occasion with regarjd 25 to his responsibilities? WATER PCB-SD0000060637 Papageorge - 46 \ 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. How often would he come to the States? 3 A. I don't know that I -- I see David maybe once a year. 4 I don't know how frequently he comes when I don't see 5 him. 6 Q. Do you know whether he's got trip planned anytime soon? 7 A. No, I don't. 8 Q. Do you talk to him with some frequency? 9 A. No; it's more a social contact than a business contact. 10 Q. So, you had been chairman of that Cl07 or its 11 predecessor from its inception until 1975? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. And, then David T\Tood came on but not as chairman ? soma14 one else was chairman? 15 A. That is my understanding, yes. 16 Q. When was that committee disbanded, do you know? 17 A. I don't know, 18 Q. Did they keep minutes of those meetings and report to oo 19 the people who were absent by sending them copies of 20 the minutes or reports of some kind? 21 A. I never>saw one. 22 Q. You never saw any minutes at all? 23 A. No. I just don't remember any minutes. 24 Q. Did you maintain a C107 Committee file of some kind? 25 A. Yes. At the time when it was active, uh-huh. WATER PCB-SD0000060638 0A Y O N N E , M.J. Papageorge - 47 1 Q. And, passed it on to David Wood or someone else 2 at Monsanto that had that responsibility? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. Can you tell me whether you ever discussed with 5 Sangamo its specific situation as opposed to the general 6 discussions in that committee at any of these meetings? 7 I presume you talked to the people socially or about 8 side issues? 9 A. Yes; but I never perceived myself as the individual 10 qualified to speak specifics, because I never really 11 knew the total situation at each of our customer's 12 sites, so I could not be specific. 13 Q. Did Monsanto have anybody else that attended or was 14 a member of the C107 committee? 15 A. You mean in addition to me or David Wood? 16 Q. Yes, yes. 17 A. I believe on occasion I took along Monsanto individuals 18 who would make presentations to the group, for example, 19 analytical methods or toxicology results, that kind 20 of -- so we would be part of the program, but they 21 would not be members of the committee. 22 Q. Who would you take along, if you recall, on analytical, 23 methods? 24 A. It would be Dr. Robert Keller or Dr. Scott Tucker. 25 Q. Both in the Medical Department? WATER PCB-SD0000060639 Papageorge - 48 1 A. No; they were in the Analytical Chemistry Service 2 Group. That's not its formal title, but that's what 3 it did. 4 Q. In St. Louis? 5 A. In St. Louis. 6 Q. How about the toxicologist? 7 A. That would be Elmer Wheeler. 8 Q. Anyone else that you recall from Monsanto being on 9 the program or going with you for any reason? 10 A. I don't recall anyone else at the moment. 11 Q. Did you assist in drafting these caution labels that 12 accompanied the PCB to customers' locations? 13 A. Some of them, um-hum. 14 Q. From what point to what point? 15 A. From 1970 forward; 1970 to 1976. 16 Q. Do you know whether or not Monsanto has ever had any 17 workmen's compensation claims where the allegation 18 has been made that PCB exposure was a contributor 19 leading to that compensation claim? 20 A. I'm not aware of any. 21 Q. Would you know if there were any? 22 A. No. 23 Q. The Legal Department would be where you would call if 24 you needed to know that answer? 25 A, I would go any of three places: Personnel Department, WATER PCB-SD0000060640 Paoageorge - 49 1 Medical Department or Legal. Being an outsider, I 2 could start with any of those three and work my way 3 to the source. 4 Q. How about claims by any individuals, personal injury, 5 that would relate to PCB's, are you aware of any such 6 claims made to Monsanto at any point in time by non7 Monsanto employees? 8 A. Claims of personal injury by workers or -- 9 Q. Well, I'm going to ask you both. First, claims of 10 personal injury by workers who didn't file a comp 11 claim. 12 A. Whose workers? 13 Q. Monsanto. 14 A. Oh, okay. 15 Q. Let's limit it to that. So I don't get too complicate^ 16 A. I know nothing about that. 17 Q. Then the same three departments you'd ask about? 18 A. Correct. 19 Q. Now, how about non-Monsanto personnel, either 20 environmentally exposed or people, say, that work for 21 a customer such as Sangamo? Do you know of anything 22 about any claims in that area? 23 A. The only claim I'm aware of is a claim of a dairy farm^ 24 that his family's health was affected by PCB's. 25 Q. And, that's where you gave the deposition earlier? WATER_PCB-SD0000060641 BAYONNE, N.J. Paoageorge - 50 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. Let me talk just a minute about some of these 3 uses of PCB's. Did Monsanto market PCB's to be used 4 in a dairy setting in some way? 5 A. No. 6 Q. How did the man say his family got exposed? 7 A. The claim was that a coating that was used in his 8 silo to protect it from the acids that are generated 9 was formulated with one of Monsanto's PCB's present. 10 And, as a result, that was the source of PCB's that 11 ended up in the milk and the meat that his family 12 consumed. . 13 Q. Did his family show up PCB's -- a PCB burden in the 14 body, to your knowledge? 15 A. I don't know that. 16 Q. You in 1963 said you had your first dealings withPCB'si. 17 Was I correct in that or did you deal with it earlier? 18 A. Oh, okay, yes; that was my first knowledge of and 19 working with. 20 Q. And, you worked in that production operation with 21 Monsanto for some oeriod of time? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. How long was that? 24 A. I guess it was -- I said '63, did I? 25 Q. (Nods head affirmatively.) WATER PCB-SD0000060642 Papageorge - 51 1 A. I thought it was earlier than that. 2 Q. Well, I'm not trying to put words in your mouth. I 3 thought you said '63. But, whatever you recall, thatf 4 fine. What do you recall is your first involvement? 5 A. Well, there was a period there in the '60's, early '60[s, 6 I was a supervisor of a group that used PCB's in 7 equipment, in compressors and transformers and electrical 8 equipment and so on. And, that lasted until 1965, I 9 guess, the end of '64. 10 Q. And, then what did you do? 11 A. Then I was assigned to a Monsanto plant at which PCB'^ 12 were manufactured. 13 Q. For sale to customers such asSangamo? 14 A. Correct. 15 Q. Until when? 16 A. Until 1970 when I was assigned the PCB Issues job. 17 Q. Going back to the early '60's to the end of '64 or '65 era, 18 tell me what department that was with and what functiDn 19 you were doing,first? 20 A. Well, it was two really functions. One was the 21 maintenance function, the electricians working on 22 transformers and electrical gear would be the neople| 23 that would be the closest to the material. Following 24 that, I had -- I was assigned the power generation 25 and distribution function, the power plant where WATER PCB-SD0000060643 Papageorge - 52 1 the electricity is made and distributed. There 2 again, I had the maintenance people as well as the 3 people who operated the equipment who .close to the PCB's. 4 Q. Did you have what I refer to as standard operating 5 procedures or guidelines for those workers to perform 6 their jobs which in any way would have mentioned the 7 proper method of handling PCB's or how to work with th 8 PCB's? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. What, generally, did those standard operating 11 procedures with regard to PCB's consist of? 12 A, Don't get it on your skin; if you get it on your work 13 clothes, launder them; don't wear them for a full week 14 that kind of message; if you get it on your hands -- 15 first of all, you should have been wearing gloves, the 16 right kinds of gloves; if you did get it on your hands 17 wash them; keep clean is really the message that is 18 conveyed. 19 Q. And, that was basically the standard operating 20 procedures for the workers themselves? 21 A. Yeah; correct. 22 Q. Was there a standard operating procedure or any 23 bulletins or documents involving how to handle PCB 24 spillage or waste that might have occurred? 25 A. Not in the '60's. WATER PCB-SD0000060644 PEN G AO C O .. B A T O M N E . W.J. Papageorge - 53 1 Q. What did you do with PCB's if a transformer started 2 leaking? 3 A. We would treat it just like we did many chemicals in 4 the plant. It would go to a chemical landfill after 5 it was absorbed in sawdust or sand or some absorbing 6 material. 7 Q. So, you would throw sawdust or sand on it and shovel 8 it up and put it in a 55-gallon drum and haul it out? 9 A. Yes? to the chemical landfill, along with the other 10 chemicals generated at the site. 11 Q. Did you have a standard operating procedure on all 12 the chemicals in the facility with regard to seepage 13 and waste just like we discussed? Was that written 14 anywhere? 15 A. Yes. The same type of advice would appear on many, 16 many chemical procedures. Each process had its own 17 book. 18 Q. But, that section would be pretty standard among the 19 different chemicals? 20 A. Pretty much so except for the very, very unique kinds 21 of chemicals. 22 Q. Nothing at that time that you recall was unique about 23 PCB's with regard to disposition of them? 24 A. That is correct. 25 Q. Anything else in that standard operating procedure tha t WATER PCB-SD0000060645 Papageorge - 54 1 you recall dealing with PCB's? 2 A. I don't recall anything else. 3 Q. Were you getting the PCB's, to your knowledge, from 4 the manufacturing facility that you subsequently went 5 to work for? 6 A. I was getting it from either of the two Monsanto 7 plants, the one in Alabama or the one in Illinois. 8 Q. Do you recall at that time whether or not -- those 9 shipments would come in in what kind of containers? 10 A. Oh, it would range from tank rail cars or by truck, 11 tank truck. 12 Q. But, it was bulk shipment and it wasn't 55-gallon drums? 13 A. No. Sometimes they were in 55-gallon drums, sometimes; 14 they were in five-gallon pails. It depended on how 15 much was required at the time. 16 Q. Okay. And, do you recall whether or not there were 17 labels and cautions and so forth on the PCB's at that 18 time, from the early '60's up through '64 that you would 19 be receiving? 20 A. Yes. On the smaller containers there were labels, yes;, 21 but not on the tank trucks or tank cars. 22 O. How about the 55-gallon drum? 23 A. There would be a label affixed on the drum. 24 Q. Do you remember anything as to what it said with rega::d 25 to the cautions or hazards associated with PCB's? WATER_PCB-SD0000060646 Papageorge - 55 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. What did it say? 3 A. Avoid prolonged breathing; do not get on skin; wash 4 contaminated area; launder clothing. These kinds of 5 statements were on the label. 6 Q. Did it say anything about disposition of the PCB's 7 after it had been used or was what I call waste 8 material? 9 A. At what point in time? 10 Q. The early '60's up through '64. Now, this is the 11 time you were in the actual manufacturing function. 12 A. No; it did not refer to disposal on the label at that 13 time. 14 Q. Do you know anything about what Monsanto v;as shipping 15 to its customers by way of the same caution or warning 16 label? Was the same label going out to the customers 17 as was coming to you in your particular facility? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. And, there wasn't anything added with regard to dispos al 20 or waste at that time, to vour knowledge? 21 A. That is correct. 22 Q. Did you have disposal or waste or just containers that 23 were almost empty but not quite that you had to get 24 rid of? 25 A. At that time, no. WATER PCB-SD0000060647 Papageorge - 56 1 Q. You did not? I mean, would you expect there to be a 2 waste from the use of the PCB's during this early 3 '60's through '64 operation that you had? 4 A, Yes. 5 Q. How did you get rid of it? I don't mean spillage 6 now. We talked about spillage. But, if you have 7 waste or some excess PCB's, you'd go through this 8 landfill situation again? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. And, you did that because of the standard operating 11 procedure of Monsanto that we discussed earlier? 12 A. Correct. 13 Q. How would the customer who received that same 5514 gallon drum know how to disoose of that waste? 15 A. I can't speak for the customer at that point in time. 16 Q. Monsanto gave no guidance with regard to that 17 disposition of waste at that point in time? 18 A. Not specific guidance. These were considered to be 19 industrial chemicals and should be handled like 20 industrial chemicals. 21 Q. Alright, sir. Now, in either late '64 or early '65, 22 what manufacturing facility of PCB's for Monsanto did 23 you go to work at? 24 A. In Anniston, Alabama. 25 O. You moved from St. Louis? WATER PCB-SD0000060648 Papageorge - 57 1 A. Correct. 2 Q. And, you lived inAnniston for how long? 3 A. Five years. 4 Q. Tell me about that facility. Does it produce all 5 of these types of PCB's or all the different numbers 6 that you use? 7 A. It did, yes. 8 Q. From the time Monsanto purchased that plant in 1929 oij 9 '30, whenever it was, did it continue to use the same 10 facility? I think -- didn't you say you bought it from 11 Swan Chemical or something like that? 12 A. Yes. When you talk about -- the facilities through 13 the years were modernized and expanded. 14 Q. The same physical location? 15 A. But, the site was the same,uh-huh. 16 Q. Do you know anything about the production levels 17 of that Anniston facility prior to your arriving ther^ 18 in late '64 or early '65? 19 A. You mean how many pounds a year did it make? 20 Q. Yes. 21 A. As I remember, it was something like 30 million pound^ 22 a year, 40 million pounds a year, something -- it's 23 been awhile. 24 Q. Was that a fairly constant volume or were there -- was 25 there some year when you had a big expansion and doubled PENGAD C O .. BAYO NNE. N.J. WATER PCB-SD0000060649 Papageorqe - 58 1 the capacity of the plant? 2 A. No. The increase was very qradual through the years, 3 shared by the two plants, so there was no nee^ to 4 double it suddenly at any one site. 5 Q. Now, the other plant is in Illinois, I believe? 6 A. Correct. 7 Q. And, approximately in -- let's take as a benchmark, 8 this -- the first of 1965, approximately what would 9 the volume have been at that time? 10 A. About the same. 11 Q. Back in 1951 when you first went with them, do you 12 have any idea about what the levels were, 20 to 30 13 million, or do you have any idea at all? 14 A. I have no good idea; I'd have tolook that uo. 15 Q. When they stopped making itin 1977, approximately 16 what would the volumes have been in the two plants? 17 A. The Anniston olant was not operating at that time. 18 It was terminated in '72. So, the unit shut down 19 in '77 was in Illinois. 20 Q. In '71, what was the volume of the Anniston plant? 21 Same thing? 22 A. The two we talked about. 23 Q. Thirty to forty million? 24 A. Right. Then when it shut dov/n, the total PCB produced 25 was at one plant at about half the original. WATER PCB-SD0000060650 Paoageorge - 59 1 Q, Likewise at about 30 to 40 million? 2 A. Something like that. 3 Q. What was your position when you went there in early 4 1965, late '64? 5 A. In Alabama? 6 Q. Uh-huh. 7 A. I was the Plant Manager. 8 Q. How many employees were at the plant? 9 A. About 300. 10 Q. Did you have any type of Medical Director or research 11 arm or toxicologist in Anniston or was all of that 12 done in St. Louis? 13 A. It was all done in St. Louis. 14 Q. Did you have a plant doctor? 15 A. We had a part-time plant doctor. 16 Q. He was an in-town doctor that just came out a couple o f 17 days a week? 18 A. He came out every morning and spent about half a day 19 with us. 20 Q. Who was he? 21 A. Dr. Francis, James Francis, I believe was his first 22 name. 23 Q. Is he still down there, do you know? 24 A. To the best of my knowledge, yes. 25 Q. Did you ever have any discussion with Dr. Francis WATER PCB-SD0000060651 Papageorge - 60 1 regarding the potential or the need for precautions 2 with PCB's? 3 A. Not specifically, no. 4 Q. Generally, did you have any discussion? 5 A. General health matters, yes. 6 Q. But, not geared to PCB's in particular* is that the 7 distinction you are drawing? 8 A. That is correct. 9 Q. Do you recall anyone ever having this dried skin 10 problem that we discussed as one of the potential 11 dangers of PCB's when you were at that plant? 12 A. I recall an occasional situation, and it would be 13 traced back to carelessness, not following procedures 14 Q. When you say carelessness, you mean the worker allowing 15 PCB's to get on his skin? 16 A. Well, not wearing gloves in the first place and then 17 allowing it to get on his skin and not washing it 18 promptly. So, it's a series of wrongdoings that led 19 to his problem. 20 Q. He didn't follow the standard operating procedure? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. Did the standard operating procedure We discussed in 23 St. Louis also exist in Anniston? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. Were there any changes -- we talked about the early BAYO NNE. N.J. WATER PCB-SD0000060652 Papageorge - 61 1 '60's to late '64 era; now we're talking late '64 up 2 to '70. Were there any changes in the standard 3 operating procedure with regard to those needed 4 precautions as to PCB's by Monsanto that you're aware 5 of? 6 A. No changes, no. 7 Q. Did you become aware of the second types of precautions 8 needed, i.e., breathing the fumes that resulted in any 9 workers having difficulties at the Anniston plant? 10 A. I'm aware of the need not to inhale those fumes. I 11 never ran across a situation where it happened. 12 Q. That was my question; alright, sir. Did vou recall 13 any standard operating procedure at the Anniston planlj. 14 with regard to disposition of PCB's? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. And, that's something that, except hs to chemicals 17 in general, did not exist in the earlier period. I 18 believe this was a new standard operating procedure 19 that came into effect when you were at Anniston? 20 A. It was not new for the plant. The plant had a 21 prodedure which said; You take these wastes to the land-f22 fill that's over in this Dart of the plant. That is 23 the procedure followed. 24 Q. Did that procedure specifically identify PCB's or was 25 it just general for any waste at the plant? WATER PCB-SD0000060653 Papageorge - 62 1 A, Well, each of the operating units had similar words. 2 So, the wording for PCB's would say: Take the tars 3 from this still or the rags from this drumming operation 4 or the gloves from this department to the landfill. 5 Q. Would you just put them in the landfill or would you 6 put them in 55-gallon drums and then put the drums 7 in the landfill -- 8 A. Both. 9 Q. -- or either? In other words, you could do either? 10 A. Either, yes. 11 Q. Any other containers in which the PCB's were to hav 12 been put before putting in the landfill other than 13 55-gallon drums or not using anything? 14 A. Well, there were -- instead of the steel drums, there 15 were the fiber paper type drums and there were paper16 bags and plastic bags, miscellaneous containers. 17 Q. Was there any disposal of waste from the Anniston 18 plant from late '64 forward into any water or stream 19 or creek? 20 A. The disposal of waste from the Anniston plant did go 21 into a creek and then eventually entered the city 22 municipal treatment system. 23 Q. Are you aware of whether or not that escape included 24 PCB's? 25 A. Yes. WATER PCB-SD0000060654 8A TO N N E . N.J. Papageorge - 63 1 Q. You are aware and, yes, it did? 2 A, Yes, 3 Q, Up until what point in time? 4 A. I was aware of it -- I don't understand your question. 5 My awareness exists today. 6 Q. Yeah. I mean when -- hopefully when the plant closed 7 in '72, they discontinued that, but did they ever 8 discontinue that up until the time they closed the 9 Anniston plant in 1972 or did it always have waste 10 going into the stream? 11 A. Well, let's limit the discussion to PCB wastes 12 because there are wastes from -- 13 Q. I'm sorry; I meant to limit it to that. 14 A. PCB wastes were never intended to go directly to the 15 creeks or Streams or this treatment system at the 16 city system. The PCB wastes entered a collection 17 pond, and it was also a neutralizing pit because the 18 wastes were acid in nature. And, the PCB's in that 19 system would collect at the bottom of this pond and 20 the neutralized waste would go on then to another par; 21 of out plant treatment system and eventually would go 22 to the city treatment system. 23 Q. Did you test that waste as it entered the city treatment 24 system to determine whether or not there were any PCB1s 25 that were entering the city treatment system? WATER PCB-SD0000060655 Papageorge - 64 1 A. At what point in time? 2 Q. Well, let's start' in late '64. 3 A. In '64, the methodology for testing PCB's in waste 4 was non-existent, so we would not have tested for it. 5 no one would have tested. 6 Q. You're saying Monsanto wasn't capable of testing even 7 if it had wanted to? 8 A. Correct. 9 Q. Sixty-five? 10 A. Same situation. 11 Q. Sixty-six? 12 A. Same. 13 Q. Sixty-seven? 14 A. Same situation. 15 Q. Sixty-eight, 16 A. Same. 17 Q. Sixty-nine? 18 A. Same. 19 Q. Seventy? 20 A. Seventy, our laboratory had refined a procedure, but 21 that expertise had yet to be taught to the plants. 22 So, '70 was the year of transition, when the expertise 23 was being taught to the plant laboratories. 24 Q. To test? 25 A. To test water for the presence of PCB's, yes. WATER PCB-SD0000060656 PENCAD C O .. BAYO NNE. N.J. Papageorge - 65 1 Q. Seventy-one? 2 A. Seventy-one, the plant started testing and analyzing. 3 Q. Did it then find that PCB's, in fact, were entering 4 the city water system from this holding pond complex 5 you discussed? 6 A. Yes; at very low levels, yes. 7 Q. Do you know what the levels were? 8 A. I don't remember the numbers, but they were parts per 9 billion levels. 10 Q. Where would we call in Monsanto to find out those 11 documents to see those numbers? 12 A. I would go to the Law Department. 13 Q. Was there any change in the process as a result of ha\ ing 14 discovered those parts per billion entering the city 15 system? 16 A. No, As I recall, that was discussed with the State 17 Water authorities and it was deemed acceptable -- yes, 18 acceptable. 19 Q. So, no change was made in the process? 20 A. No. 21 Q. . Was the same sequence also in the Illinois Plant, to 22 your knowledge, or do you have any knowledge of that p Lant 23 A. The same sequence in terms of analytical capacilities 24 (WHEREUPON, a discussion was held off the 25 record.) WATER PCB-SD0000060657 Papageorge - 66 1 A, I forgot the question. I think you said: Was the 2 same procedure - 3 Q. Yeah, Do you know anything about the Illinois plant? 4 I'd think itwould be the same, but I just want to know 5 whether you have any knowledge. 6 A. Well, the Illinois plant collected the waste from 7 their operation in a collection sumo right below the 8 department, like a bathtub, and separated the PCB 9 layer from the water layer. That water layer then was 10 transferred to the municipal treating system. So, it 11 was the same, and yet not exactly the same. There wa 12 no neutralizing and so on. 13 Q. In '71, when they got the capability to test, did the^ 14 test and find that there were levels of PCB in the water 15 going into the water system in Illinois? 16 A. Yes; yes. 17 Q. Was that still the system, and the case up until 1977 whfen 18 they closed the Illinois plant or did they ever change 19 that? 20 A. That was the system; that was the permitted allowance 21 that the villagetreament plant wouldaccept from 22 Monsanto. 23 Q. That was the state agenty in Illinois? 24 A. No; that was a municipal system. Now, the state agen 25 monitored theout-fall of themunicipal system. WATER PCB-SD0000060658 PENG AD CO. Papageorge - 67 Q. Did you ever receive any data as to what they found? A. I didn't personally receive that. I was led to believe that it didn't show up in the effluent; it was in the sludaes that were buried. Q. On the chemical landfill? A. Yes. Q. You remained in Anniston until 1970? A. Yes. Q. Plant Manager the entire time? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. Then you returned to St. Louis at about what point in 12 time in 1970? 13 A. January. 14 Q. Title? 15 A. Manager, Environmental Control. 16 Q. Department? 17 A. It was in the -- I think it was called the Functional 18 Fluids Business Group. 19 Q. Any chemicals in there besides PCB's? 20 A. Yes; there were many others. 21 Q. You had responsibilities beyond PCB's from January -- 22 A. Not at that time? jhst PCB's. 23 Q. For how long? 24 A. For how long for PCB's exclusively -- 25 Q. Yes. tv WATER PCB-SD0000060659 PENGAD CO .. BATO NNE. N .J. 07002 Papageorge - 68 1 A. -- or PCB's and others? 2 Q. Well, exclusively first. 3 A. Exclusively until about 1972 or 3, then I started 4 picking up other chemicals. 5 Q. How long PCB's with other chemicals? 6 A. From '72, '73 until *76 when PCB's were taken from 7 me. 8 Q. And, given to whom? 9 A. A Mr. Cole Weber. 10 Q. Mr. Cole Weber? 11 A. C-o-l-e Weber. 12 Q. Did he then take over the title you had also? 13 A. He had the title,' hut he had a different set of 14 chemicals that he was monitoring. 15 Q. Where is he now? 16 A. In St. Louis. 17 Q. Still with the company? 18 A. Yes. . 19 Q. Where did you go in 1976? 20 A. I kept the chemicals,other than PCB's, that were assig ned 21 to me and picked up some additional chemicals. 22 Q. Did you ever have anymore dealings with PCB's after 23 1976 when that was given to Mr. Weber? 24 A. Only on a spot basis. 25 Q. What do you mean by a spot basis? WATER PCB-SD0000060660 Papageorge 69 ( 1 A. Like this instance, for example. 2 Q. All these depositions and testimony we discussed? 3 A. Special request. Mot routinely, no. 4 Q. Anything beyond what the Legal Department might ask 5 you to do? Did you have any technical or customer 6 request to come in that you assisted with? 7 A. No. 8 Q. How much of your time now is spent working for or 9 in conjunction with the Legal Department? 10 A. I have never measured it. It's hard for me -- 11 Q. Five percent, fifty percent? 12 A. Gosh! It's nearer five than fifty. ( 13 Q. Does this PCB group still exist at Monsanto? 14 A. I don't know that I would call it a group any longer. 15 There is an individual that follows the PCB issue. 16 Q. Who is that? 17 A. John Craddock, C-r-a~d-d-o-c-k. 18 Q. T"Jhat department is he in? 19 A. He is a member of our Corporate Environmental Policy 20 staff. 21 Q. What does he do now with regard to that position? 22 A. Oh, he keeps tuned in to governmental activities 23 regarding PCB's; he responds to inquiries from old 24 customers, academic people who are wanting to study 25 the PCB issue. WATER PCB-SD0000060661 Papageorge - 70 1 Q. He keeps abreast of the literature, whatever is cominc 2 out? 3 A. The current literature. He helps, I understand, our 4 Legal Department, keeping abreast of current legal 5 matters. 6 Q. Does he provide you with any quarterly summaries on 7 the literature or--vfoat 's going on -8 A. No. 9 Q. -- or send you articles on PCB's or anything like that? 10 A. No; huh-uh. 11 Q. Do you talk with him on some frequent or infrequent 12 or regular or irregular basis about PCB's? 13 A. I currently just talk to him infrequently, and it's -- 14 MR. COCKRILL: Excuse me; off the record. 15 (WHEREUPON, the proceedings were adjourne d 16 in order for Mr. Richardson to 17 accept a telephone call.) 18 (WHEREUPON, the Court ReDorter read back 19 the last question and the beginning 20 of the answer, as requested.) 21 A. I intended to say it's an informal discussion, since 22 I am no longer assigned PCB's. It's just to satisfy 23 my curiosity rather than to fulfill a job need. 24 Q. You'd just run into him out at the plant basically? 25 A. Or in the corridors, lunch, somewhere. WATER PCB-SD0000060662 1A Y 0N N E . N.J. Papageorge - 71 1 Q. rTie processes that you mentioned both in Anniston and Illinois with 2 regard to the waste, you said you'd have it in a 3 settling pond and you'd take off the water and the 4 PCB's are heavier and would go to the bottom? 5 A. (Nods head affirmatively.) 6 Q. What do you do with the sludge in the bottom? 7 A. It goes to the landfill. 8 Q. Do you get in there and drain the pond and get in 9 bulldozers or -- 10 A. Yes, or equipment. 11 Q. And, haul it to the landfill? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. When you say equipment, describe -- 14 A. A backhoe and you'd dump it into the drums and seal 15 the drums and then haul the drums over to the landfill 16 and deposit it in the landfill. Now, this amount is 17 small. It doesn't happen often. It's a once-a-year 18 type of clean-up of this sludge. 19 Q. What is your academic background? 20 A. I have a Master's degree in chemical engineering. 21 Q. From where? 22 A. Washington University in St. Louis. 23 Q. Undergraduate? 24 A, A Bachelor's degree in chemical engineering, same 25 institution. WATER PCB-SD0000060663 Papageorge - 72 1 Q. When did you receive your Bachelor's? 2 A. In 1943. 3 Q. And, your Master's? 4 A. Nineteen forty-seven. 5 Q. Prior to '47, had you done any work for chemical 6 companies or had it been academic? Had you been emplc yed 7 by a company such as Monsanto? 8 A. No. 9 Q. From '47 to '51, what did you do? 10 A. I worked for Phillip's Petroleum Company. 11 Q. Doing what? 12 A. Oh, it was varied type of assignments. I was invol\ ed 13 with drilling fluids used in drilling oil wells and -- 14 Q. That's alright; I don't want to go into all of that. 15 What did you do in '51? I presume you went with 16 Monsanto in '51? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. What did you do with them as your first job? 19 A. I was inadesign group designing chemical manufacturin': ' 20 equipment. 21 Q. Had you heard of PCB's in your academic studies? 22 A. No. 23 Q. At Phillip's Petroleum? 24 A. No. 25 Q. This equipment that you were designing, did it have WATER PCB-SD0000060664 BAYO NNE. N.J. Papageorge - 73 1 anything to do with PCB's? 2 A. No. 3 Q. How long did you remain in that position? 4 A. Two or three years. 5 Q. Then after that, what did you do? 6 A. I was given assignments in production supervision, 7 making different chemicals at different times. 8 Q. Did any of them involve PCB's during that time? 9 A. No. 10 Q. . How long did you continue in that capacity? 11 A. Let's see, about another three years in that. 12 Q. Then what did you do? 13 A. Then I was made a Maintenance Supervisor. 14 Q. At what facility? 15 A. Oh, the plant was divided into equal geogfaohic areas, so 16 I had about a fifth of the plant to maintain, repair, 17 construct and craftsmen and handling equioment. 18 Q. What year did you start that job? 19 A. I believe it was 1955. 20 Q. Did you have any exposure or dealing with PCB's durinc 21 that time? 22 A. This is when I became involved with PCB's through the 23 electricians and the maintenance of electrical 24 equipment. 25 Q. And, that would be '55? WATER PCB-SD0000060665 Papageorge - 74 1 A. Fifty-five through '59, some period like that. 2 Q. But, it was primarily a plant maintenance function 3 that you were involved -- 4 A. Yes; but, not -- yes; and very little of it at that 5 point. 6 Q. Involved with PCB's? 7 A. Correct. 8 Q. What standard operating procedures existed at Monsanto 9 at that point in time with regard to PCB's? 10 A. It's the ones we discussed earlier: Don't get it on 11 your skin, wear proper -- 12 Q. I might be getting a little confused. I thought you 13 said this project was from the early '60's until '64, 14 but now vre've moved it back to '55 to '59. Is that the 15 one we already discussed earlier in this deposition? 16 A. No; no. I'm confused,too,here. 17 Q. Alright. 18 A. As Maintenance Supervisor and eventually Maintenance 19 Superintendent, I supervised electricians who, in turn, 20 handled the material, and I was responsible to see 21 that they got the right instructions. 22 Q. That was '55 to '59? 23 A. That was '55 to '59 roughly. 24 0. What did you do from '59 to '64? 25 A. Fifty-nine to ' 64 I was put back in the engineering WATER PCB-SD0000060666 Papageorge - 75 1 group, again designing equipment, although this time 2 I was supervisory level. 3 Q. But, no PCB equipment? 4 A. That is right. 5 Q. You remained in that capacity the entire time from 6 '59 to '64? 7 A. To '63 or so. 8 Q. Then what happened in '63? 9 A. Then I became a General Superintendent to which the 10 power generating equipment was assigned. That was one 11 of my big units. And, this is where I became more 12 closely involved with PCB's and big transformer and 13 power distribution systems and large air. compressors 14 that had PCB's in them and the like. 15 Q. And, that's what we talked about earlier? 16 A. That's right. This was the big first exposure for 17 me to PCB's ^ 18 Q. Let's go back to the '55, '59 era. 19 A. Alright. 20 Q. I'm going to ask you about the standard operating 21 procedures that Monsanto had at that Doint in time 22 with regard to PCB's. 23 A. It was the same aS it was in the '60's: Don't get it 24 on your skin, wash your clothes, don't breathe hot 25 vapors from PCB's . WATER PCB-SD0000060667 Paoageorge - 76 1 Q. And, no comment with regard to waste at that time? 2 A. That is correct. 3 Q. With regard to the structure of Monsanto, what 4 department or division had PCB's under it? 5 A. In what way, in the selling? 6 Q. Let's talk about in the manufacturing and selling of 7 PCB's. 8 A. That was -- I don't know how small a group we -- that 9 has always been a part of the Functional Fluids Group. 10 Q. What percentage of the volume of that group is PCB's? 11 A. Today, zero. 12 Q. Nineteen sixty-five? 13 A. Sixty-five? It would be a pure guess on my part. I 14 don't have all the numbers to -- 15 Q. I'm trying to found out whether you're talking about 16 99 percent of that Functional Fluid is PCB's or 17 whether it's a small player within that division. 18 A. It's more like 50 percent. 19 Q. Were the two plants, PCB plants, in Anniston and 20 Illinois under that Functional Fluids Group? 21 A. Mot the plants. The group that is responsible for 22 the marketing of the product and its profitability and 23 its applications and all relies on a manufacturing 24 group to produce the material. It's a separate 25 function. It's a sort of a service that they buy frori WATER PCB-SD0000060668 Papageorge - 77 ( 1 a manufacturing group ; give me so many Dounds of a 2 product and put it in this package. 3 Q. So, the manufacturing group is within Monsanto but it : 4 separate? 5 A. That's right; it has its own management, its own 6 targets, its own objectives and its strives to build 7 up an inventory which another group will market. 8 Q. What did the Functional Fluids Group do? Did it market, 9 the product? 10 A. It marketed the product, it made the business 11 decisions regarding products. 12 O. Did it do the research with regard to PCB? 13 A. Yes; it had a research function assigned to it. 14 Q. So, it would develop another number, 1016, and then telL the 15 plant how to make 1016, for examola? 16 A. That is correct. 17 Q. Who was in charge of that Functional Fluids Group in 18 the early '60's? Late '60's? 19 A. Late '60's it was -- middle to late '60's it was Dr. 20 Anagnostopolous. 21 Q. Is he still there? 22 A. He is still with Monsanto, yes. 23 Q. What department is he with, do you know? 24 A. He is in the Corporate Planning Department. He is the 25 Vice-President of Corporate Planning, I believe - WATER PCB-SD0000060669 Papageorge - 78 1 Q. In St. Louis? 2 A, In St. Louis, yes. 3 Q. How about the early '70 's, the same man? 4 A. Early '70's was Hovrard Bergen, B-e-r-g-e-n. 5 Q. Those men are more managers' as opposed to your knowing 6 more about the technical part of PCB's or - 7 A. That is right, they were general managers. They had 8 responsibilities over many disciplines. 9 Q. Do you know whether Monsanto sold to another Sangamo 10 facility besides Pickens County, South Carolina? 11 A. No, I don't. 12 Q. You don't ever remember visiting another Sangamo 13 facility somewhere else? 14 A. I never visited one, to my knowledge. 15 Q. How many sites did you go out and visit in 1970 16 during this time period you had your dog and pony 17 show on the road? 18 MR. MARION: Object to the form. 19 MR. COC-KRILL: To the characterization of 20 the form. 21 A. I never counted it but it must have been a dozen or so. 22 Q. Do you know whether other people from Monsanto ever 23 visited Sangamo in addition to that one time we've 24 talked about that you did? 25 A. Yes. WATER PCB-SD0000060670 Papageorge - 79 1 Q. Was it something that Monsanto did on a regular 2 basis,to go see its customers? 3 A. That is traditional -- normal. 4 Q. And, that would be done every several months or every $ix 5 months maybe? 6 A. Oh, I don't know that there's any time period. It's 7 at the discretion of the field salesman. And he may 8 on occasion invite people out of St. Louis to join 9 him or he may ask someone out of St. Louis to make 10 a call without his presence. The field salesman 11 doesn't have to be present. 12 Q. Do you know what field sales office serviced the 13 Sangamo account in Pickens? 14 A. At the time I was directly involved, it was handled 15 by one person who, I believe, worked out of the 16 New York office. 17 Q. Who is that? 18 A. Randy Graham. 19 Q. So, he was the man in 1970? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. Those field salesmen, I guess you'd call them, were 22 they educated or knowledgable, excuse me, with regard 23 to the technical part of the company or the product? 24 And, I say that trying to draw the distinction Somb 25 companies have salesmen who are just gladhanders and PCNGAO C O .. BAYO NNE. N.J. WATER PCB-SD0000060671 Papageorge - 80 1 they have then some salesmen who are -- industrial 2 salesmen who are knowledgable about the details of 3 the product,that have technical knowledge to assist 4 the clients or customers when they're making sales. 5 What concept did Monsanto use in that regard? 6 A. Our field representatives are trained to provide a gocj>d 7 bit of this technical information. This is not meant 8 that there aren't others he can call or; for more in-deptlji 9 expertise in very specific areas. Put, he has enough 10 technical knowledge of the product that he's able to 11 discern when he can handle it alone or needs further 12 help. 13 Q. Are most of them engineers? 14 A. I think its about equal. Some are chemists and some 15 are engineers. 16 Q. All of them are professionals , though? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. Randal, is that what you said, Randal Graham? 19 A. I called him Randy, I don't know what his formal -- I think 20 his initials are W. R. Graham. 21 Q. You don't know what his background is? 22 A. I don't remember. 23 Q. Was he present in this 1970 meeting when you went in? 24 A. Yes; he was my escort. He drove the car and introduced 25 me -- WATER PCB-SD0000060672 Papageorge - 81 1 Q. Knew the people and had been there? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. Did you get the impression that he had gone in prior :o 4 that time with some frequency? 5 A. Yes. : 6 O. Do you send those people to technical schools to 7 keep them abreast? Do they go back to St. Louis every six 8 months or a year for refreshers or to learn the new 9 products or new developments on products? Is it a 10 constant educational process that Monsanto has? 11 A. It is constant and it varies from product group to 12 product group and person to person. In the dielectric 13 area where there was only one individual covering 14 virtually three-fourths of the United States, it was 15 not a case of where you'd call a group in to meet. 16 We'd call Randy in and say: Hey, -17 Q. He was the only salesman east of the Rockies? 18 A. Just about--yes, he was. So, there was one person, : 19 so he would drop in St. Louis on occasion and he'd 20 be brought up the speed on what new developments were 21 taking place and the like. 22 Q. Would he have worked almost exclusively with PCB's? 23 A. Yes; that was it. 24 Q . Did you have another man out on the West Coast? 25 A. Out on the West Coast, we had a couple of individuals i WATER PCB-SD0000060673 Papageorge - 82 1 But, there was only a couple of customers, so it was 2 much -- 3 Q. They weren't full-time PCB's? 4 A. That's correct. 5 Q. With regard to Mr. Graham, is he still with the compar v?* 6 A. No. 7 Q. Where is he now? 8 A. I don't know. 9 Q. When did he leave, have you got any idea? 10 A. I'm going to say early '70's, '72 or thereabouts. 11 MR. COCKRILL: Off the record. 12 (WHEREUPON, a discussion was held off 13 the record.) 14 (WHEREUPON, the proceedings were recesse: 15 in order for the witness to make a 16 telephone call.) 17 Q. Because of Mr. Graham's involvement with the PCB's, 18 would he have been on the distribution list for any 19 memos and literature and articles coming in on PCB's? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. With regard to a salesman like that and his relationsh IP 22 with a customer, I presume what you're saying is 23 he would have been also sort of a technical represente tiv 24 if they had questions about the product, and if he 25 thought it was over his head, he would have had to cal 1 WATER PCB-SD0000060674 Papageorge - 83 1 somebody either at the PCB plant or in St. Louis 2 to fly out and assist him with that technical 3 question, but more times than not, he could handle 4 it himself or by telehpone? 5 A. That's a fair evaluation. Not only would his back-up 6 technical people fly to the plant, but they could 7 handle many of these inquiries by teleDhone or by 8 letters. 9 Q. In addition to the medical department we discussed 10 earlier, were there chemists or industrial hygienists 11 that worked for Monsanto outside of the Medical 12 Department or was all that -- I said chemists, I 13 didn't mean chemists; I meant the industrial hygienis 14 from a health standpoint, would they have all been 15 in the Medical Department? 16 A. In St. Louis, it would have been in the Medical 17 Department. Those at some of the olants, would be 18 in the manufacturing function. 19 Q. Do you know which one of the PCB's was being sold to 20 Sangamo? 21 A. I'm aware of at least three types. 22 Q. Which were those? 23 A. Aroclor 1242, Aroclor 1254 and,finally, Aroclor 1016. 24 Q. Aroclor, is that just a marketing name? 25 A. Yes; it's a Monsanto trademark. WATER PCB-SD0000060675 Papageorge - 84 1 Q. And, all of the Aroclor and then the numbers are 2 a type of PCB? 3 A. Not all of them. 4 Q. Aroclor was used on other chemicals in addition to 5 PCB? 6 A. Correct. 7 Q. Those three at least--there could have been others 8 sold to Sangamo that you don't know about or -- you 9 know at least those three? 10 A. That is right; there could be others. 11 Q. The 1016 is sort of an unusual number to me, It 12 doesn't fit the mold. Was that a later developed 13 product of some kind? 14 A. It was a late product, yes. When the product was 15 under development, it was assigned a number out of 16 a book, a log book, which numbers are assigned to 17 experimental chemicals. And, the next number when its 18 turn came up was 1016. And, originally that product 19 was referred to as MCS 1016, that's Monsanto Company 20 Sample 1016. When it was finally accepted by the 21 electrical industry, the capacitor manufacturers, we 22 were in the midst of referring to it now as an 23 Aroclor to be consistent with previous Aroclors. But, 24 to stay with the initial nomenclature would have been 25 confusing because this material also had close to WATER PCB-SD0000060676 Papageorge - 85 1 4 2 percent chlorine to maintain the same fire retard arit 2 properties. Instead of having two 1242's and since tl|e 3 correspondence and the language of the development of 4 this new product kept referring to 1016, we decided 5 to forget the past in terms of naming our PCB's and c4ll 6 this One Aroclor 1016. It doesn't fit the previous 7 pattern. 8 Q. When did Monsanto start marketing that product? 9 A. It was either late '71 or early '72. 10 Q. When you find PCB's, say) out in the environment, cou^d 11 you by your testing methods nowdifferentiate between 12 1242, 1254 and 1016 if you found it in theenvironment! 13 say, in the sludge in the river up in Pickens County? 14 A. No. All that the analytical chemists can really tell 15 you is that the results of his analyses produce a 16 print, a chart, that most closely resembles the 17 standard. He can never really tell you it's 1242 or 18 1254. He can tell you that: What I see now most 19 closely resembles 1254 or 1242. Very seldom are the 20 prints exactly alike. There's always a slight change.) 21 Q. But, when it gets out in the environment, it doesn't 22 break down into just a more basic chemical you genericslly 23 refer; to as PCB- it remains in that pattern in which 24 it was originally sold? 25 A. No. That's why I meant that the -- this fingerprint. PC N C M ) C O .. BAYONNE. N.J. WATER PCB-SD0000060677 Papageorge - 86 ( 1 let's call it, is not exactly the same as the material 2 that was back at the plant in the drum. Now, if you 3 catch it right at the out-fall, it's most likely to be 4 like that. But, further downstream and days, months 5 or years later, it will appear different. Some of 6 the peaks and valleys disappear. 7 Q. Unfortunately for you, I'm a liberal arts major, so I 8 don't know much of the technical part of it at all. 9 But, I would like, if you could, to try to explain 10 to me -- and if you've got to do it by referring to 11 a sheet of paper to sketch, that will be fine with 12 me -- but tell me what you chemists call PCB's and 13 then how you vary between 1254, 1242 and 1016. What's 14 different among those? 15 A. I'll try. PCR's are made by starting with a common 16 chemical, benzene. I think most of us have heard of 17 benzene. And, it's described graphically by the 18 chemists by a hexagon, as a diagram. Each of the corners 19 of this hexagon represents the position of a carbon. 20 And, attached to the carbon for benzene are hydrogens. 21 That is graphically how benzene is described on paoer 22 for communications between the chemists. And, we taka 23 two of those benzenes and connect them nose to nose, so 24 to speak. We form a chemical now called biphenyl. 25 Mow, if we introduce this biphenyl to chlorine gas. FORM 2004 PENGAD CO.. BAYO NNE. N .J. 07001 WATER PCB-SD0000060678 Papageorge - 87 1 the chlorine will start displacing some of these 2 hydrogens that are at each of these points on the 3 benzene rings. The chlorines will attach randomly, 4 and you can have one chlorine per biphenyl to ten 5 chlorines per biphenyl. That's the maximum. So, 6 when the PCB's are produced commercially, we don't 7 end up with any one of these chloro, di-chloro, tri8 chloro biphenyl; we end up with a mixture. And, 9 through years of experience, we learn that after so 10 many minutes of exposure to chlorine we'll end up 11 with the product we were striving for. '''hat oroduct 12 would be designated as Aroclor 1242 or Aroclor 1254, 13 dependent; on how much chlorine was present in the 14 final mixture. 15 O. So, the last two digits, except for the 1016, represent 16 the percentage of chlorination? 17 A. It's the percent by weight of chlorine that's present 18 in the total mass. 19 Q. And, that is the cumulative effect of the one to ten 20 chlorine atoms? 21 A. That is correct. And, it's rather consistent in that 22 the randomness is still there but each time the 23 penta chloro and the four chloro and the three chloro 24 are fairly consistent. 25 Q. You mean the number of three chloro and four chloro are WATER PCB-SD0000060679 BAYO NNE, N.J, Papageorge - 88 1 fairly consistent on a mean curve? 2 A. From batch to batch, you can pretty well predict, assumin'' 3 you use the same method of production, same temperature, 4 some volumes, same amount of chlorine and same time. 5 Q. What's different about 1016? I know it's 42 percent, 6 but it was a new product, late '70's; that's unusual, 7 isn't it? 8 MR. MARION: Objection to form. I think 9 you misstated (sic) late '70's, I th:.nk. 10 Q. Early '70's I think you said, didn't you? 11 A. Introduced in the early '70's -- 12 Q. Early '70's. Well, whatever I said, I'm sorry. 13 A. -- and it was terminated in '77. Our early information, 14 which kept repeating itself, is that the higher 15 chlorinated types of PCB's were the ones most apt to 16 be found in the environment. And, since it was our 17 desire to keep it out of the environment, we concluded 18 that the lower chlorinated were most apt to disappear 19 with time. Nature takes care of it, either through 20 bacteria or'.through other processes. So, we took a 21 material that was very similar to the old Aroclor 22 1242 and put it in a refining unit, a distillation 23 column like the petro chemical business, and removed 24 the higher chlorinated parts and we removed the very 25 low chloros, the one chloros, such that we ended up WATER PCB-SD0000060680 Papageorge - 89 1 with -- I'm going to use a term that may not be 2 technically right -- but the heart cut so that we main 3 tained the same percentage of chlorine but this time |t 4 was predominately the tri chloro rather than a 5 mixture of one chloro and five chloro. 6 Q. And, that's because you really wanted to eliminate 7 the five chloro which didn't break down? 8 A. Correct. I'd rather start with a three chloro because 9 I had a better probability that the three chloro will 10 eventually disappear from the environment, if it got aw4i 11 from me in the first place. That was the intent of 12 introducing Aroclor 1016. 13 Q. In Anniston or up in Illinois, you'd have a productior| 14 line that would have, I guess, chambers where you'd 15 make the biphenyls and then put the chlorine gas to 16 it, -- 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. -- and you'd run that system for awhile and get 1016 19 and you'd clean that out, and if you had an order for 20 1242, you'd come back and run it and change all the 21 knobs and whistles and run it through the same system 22 or -have you got two different production lines - 23 or a production line for every particular tyoe of 24 PCB? 25 A. No; the unit was flexible; it could make any of the j WATER PCB-SD0000060681 Papageorge - 90 1 PCB ' s . And, the type, of course, varied with time. The 2 longer you introduced the chlorine, the higher 3 chlorination you'd get. 4 Q. How about the temperature? Would you vary the 5 temperature? 6 A, Yes. 7 Q. How high would the temperature go? 8 A. I don't recall the exact temperatures, but the higher 9 the chlorine contents, the higher temperature 10 required to make the final product. 11 O. And, you don't remember the exact temperatures for 12 1254, for example? 13 A. No, I don't. 14 Q. A thousand or -- 15 A. About 300 degrees Fahrenheit up to 500 or 600 degrees 16 Fahrenheit. 17 Q. Are the higher percentage of chlorinations more toxic 18 in your opinion? 19 A. It depends on the creature, the animal tested. 20 Q. What if you had both hands here and you've got one of 21 them exposed to 1254 and one of them tol242, would you 22 expect the result to be more severe with the Aroclor 23 1254 than the Aroclor 1242? 24 A. NOt for humans, no. 25 Q. What if you go down to, sav, 16 percent chlorination WATER PCB-SD0000060682 Papageorge - 91 1 versus 54, you just don't have a differentiation on 2 effect there? 3 A. I'm not -- no; I don't have that distinction in my mind no. 4 Q. So, the only distinction with the percentage of 5 chlorination is the fact that somehow it's a more 6 permanent, long-lasting chemical because of the 7 higher percentage of chlorination? 8 A. In the environment. 9 Q. In the environment? 10 A. In the environment; uh-huh. 11 Q. How about the function of it when you put it in a 12 capacitor? Why would you choose 1254 versus 3 2-42? 13 Would it also be more heat resistent or have other ( 14 characteristics? 15 A. Well, the -- because of the higher chlorine content. 16 the 1254 would be more fire resistant; also because 17 of its higher chlorine content, it's much more viscous ;; 18 it's like molasses. I can perceive some applications 19 where this thicker fluid is desirable; on the other 20 hand, I also am aware of situations where it's desira) >le 21 to have a thinner fluid. It's easily bumped; it's 22 easily handled, and as long as it performs the 23 function well, many companies would prefer the thinne: 24 fluid. 25 Q. Would somebody like Mr. Randal Graham come in and-- s< Y WATER PCB-SD0000060683 BAYO NNE. N.J. Papageorge - 92 1 Sangamo says: Alright; this is the apDlication I 2 want. Mr. Graham would say: Alright; you need 1242 3 or you need 1254. Would he give them the guidance on| 4 the particular type of PCB they would need? 5 A. He would give them the initial guidance, yes. He 6 was capable of doing that. 7 Q. Do you know or did you see when you were at Sangamo 8 whether or not they had their own independent laboratory 9 that was evaluating or testing PCB1s or determining 10 whether it was more optimum for them to use 1254 11 versus 1242? 12 A. I know they had a facility for testing their 13 products. I have no way of knowing whether they 14 were developing new products in that same facility. 15 Q. Do you know whether they were independently doing any| 16 evaluation of the health hazard potential? 17 A. No; I don't know.that. . 18 Q. There's a statement here that lawyers for Monsanto 19 have made. It says: Information about the reported 20 environmental presence of PCB's was provided to Sangamo| 21 as it became available. 22 MR. WHITE: Can I ask you what document 23 you're reading from? 24 MR. RICHARDSON: Answers to Rule L6 (b) 25 Interrocratories. WATER PCB-SD0000060684 Papageorge - 93 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q. We've talked about your visit to theplant. Do you know anything else that Monsanto provided to Sangamo regarding the environmental presence of PCB's? A. Yes. Q. Tell me about that. A. They received a letterthat we had sentto users of dielectrics earlier that year reporting our understanding of prese^e in the environment and the type that was being identified in informing them that you, as a use, of Aroclors are, whether you know it or not -- of course, these aren't the exact words -- are using PCBfs; we want you to be aware of that, and also some statement about: Let's keep it out of the environment. So, there was a mailing made to all customers on record in early 1970. MR. RICHARDSON: Frank, is that in this box over here? MR. MARION: To my knowledge, I think all the correspondence we could locate with a reasonable search is in there|, Q, Anything other than this one letter in early 1970? I mean, I'm sure all the labels and all that -- we'll get into all that later -- you provided when you shipped something, but - A. Uh-huh. BAYONNE. N .J. WATER PCB-SD0000060685 Papageorge - 94 (i 1 -- independent of your visit, this letter and the 2 labels, do you know of anything else? And, it could 3 be every six months you sent in technical bulletins 4 on PCB's or something like that. 5 A, There was a continual dialogue. I know that there were 6 people in addition to Randy Graham who were talking 7 to Sangamo people. This was not unique to Sangamo. 8 Q. Talking to everybody? 9 A. Everybody was treated alike, as far as we could. I 10 just at the moment don't remember any other mailing 11 or document that comes to mind. 12 Q. Who were the other people that were talking to Sangamo? 13 A. Oh, -- 14 Q. If you don't remember names, if you're talking about 15 the medical director or you're talking about a 16 hygienist or whatever. 17 No; I'm talking primarily about product related technical i 18 people. Paul Benignus was the -- I think the title 19 at the time was Market Manager for Dielectrics; then 20 there was an individual reporting to Mr. Benignus, 21 James Bryant, B-r-y-a-n-t. That was part of his 22 assignment, communicating with the dielectric people 23 on developments in the PCB issue. 24 Q. Were these people all during this era, early '70's -- 25 early '60's through 1977 or was it limited to some WATER PCB-SD0000060686 E N C A D C O .. B A Y O N N E . N .J.f Panageorge - 95 1 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 ( 13 14 15 16 : 17 o CO 0 0 FORM 2 3bDic u I 8 < 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 point in time? A. It's limited because they all left Monsanto eventually I forget the exact years, but Mr. Benignus retired. Q. He's in the St ,i Louis area? A. I believe he is. Q. And, the other, Bryant -A. Mr. Bryant joined some other company, and I don't knov 1 where he is today. Q. What company? A. I don't know; I don't remember. Q. They mentioned also, Monsanto lawyers, about a lawsuil in 1976. Did you know anything about that back in 1976, brought here in South Carolina? A. No. I heard about it in the corridors several years later, but that's the extent of my knowledge. Q. You mean you heard about it in the corridors sometime after '76? A. Yes; about 1978 or so; somehow I knew about it. That': all I knew. Q. Have you seen sales records from Monsanto to Sangamo either in preparation for this deposition or not, for any reason? MR. MARION: Would you repeat the question? I'm sor.v Q. Have you seen any sales records from Monsanto to Sangamo? fE N C A D C O .. BAYO NNE, N.J, >7002 WATER PCB-SD0000060687 Papageorge - 96 1 A. I had seen on occasion a listing of dielectric 2 customers, and on that list Sangamo was one of the 3 customers. 4 Q. But, more specifically, do you know anything about 5 the volumes? 6 A. No. 7 Q. You mentioned the three types that you know they were 8 using. ` 9 A. Right. 10 Q. Do you know what percentages of each by year or any 11 thing like that? 12 A. No. 13 MR. RICHARDSON: Have you all got those 14 sales records? 15 MR. MARION: That one package in there is 16 invoices. That's all we could find 17 the ones in the folder. I think tha^; 's 18 primarily, if not all, the sales 19 invoices which would have the 20 quantities, I assume, on them. 21 Q. David Wood down in Brazil, he's with what group in 22 Monsanto in Brazil now? 23 A. In Monsanto we call that the International Division. 24 Q. Within that is he working on some particular types o^ 25 chemicals? WATER PCB-SD0000060688 Papageorge - 97 1 A. I don't know. 2 Q. They're not selling PCB's internationally? 3 A. No, no. No PCB1s anywhere from Monsanto. 4 Q. What percentage of the American market does Monsanto 5 have of PCB's? 6 A. Over 90 percent. 7 Q. Did they have any American competition at all? 8 A. Not to our knowledge at that time. 9 Q. Did they have some importing with -- 10 A. We can only speculate. There are no records kept 11 by any agency. 12 Q. I didn't ask with regard to the European trip. 3ut, w'^o 13 were your competitors internationally with PCB's? 14 A. Well, there's two French companies, a German company, 15 a Spanish company, Italian, and there are some oh the 16 other side of the iron curtain: Czechoslovakia, Poland 17 and Russia. 18 Q. Not on the iron Curtain side, but can you name the 19 others or do you know the names of the others? 20 A. I think I remember some of them. There's the Flick 21 Company in Spain; Caffaro, C-a-f-f-a-r-o, in Italy -- 22 these may be shortened versions of complicated names -j23 the Bayer Company in Germany, B-a-y-e-r ; Kuhlman, 24 K-u-h-l-m-a-n, .inFrance; and Rhone-Poulhac, R-h-o-n-e 25 Poulhac (sic). I don't know how to spell Poulhac (sii WATER PCB-SD0000060689 PENGAO C O .. BAYO NNE. N.J. Papageorge 98 1 P-o-u-l-h-a-c (sic), something like that. 2 0. Which ones of those did you visit? 3 A. The customer meeting was a meeting of representatives 4 of those companies held in Brussels. So, as I 5 remember, all of those names I mentioned, except the 6 Spanish, were represented in the room. 7 Q. Were there documents generated or hand-outs at that 8 meeting or -9 A. I didn't get any. I don't what they did -- 10 Q. -- reports that you made back to your .Monsanto personnel 11 as a result of that meeting? 12 A. I don't recall ever writing it. I reported orally to 13 a group what we found in Europe. 14 Q. What were they doing with regard to PCB hazards? 15 A. Well, they accused Monsanto of overreacting, that PCB 16 really weren't a problem, that we 'were creating the 17 problem. They were not going to follow our lead in 18 terminating markets -- 19 Q. This was in 1970? 20 A. Yes; April, May, 1970. So, the receptivity was not 21 favorable to Monsanto's position at all. 22 Q. Are they still making PCB's? 23 A. I understand they are, yes. 24 Q. Do you know that, and where do you get this understaninc 25 A. Well, I read, on occasion that the common market and WATER PCB-SD0000060690 Papageorge - 99 1 the OECD are working with rules that would impact on 2 the member nations and the PCB's are being criticized 3 by some member companies. I've read enough in the 4 popular press and trade literature to indicate that 5 PCB's are still being sold, but the pressure is increosint 6 to terminate it in Europe as well,as we have in the U,S. 7 O. Have you, yourself, seen anyone that had medical 8 effects from PCB exposures? 9 A. No. 10 Q. Do you have any knowledge with regard to the criteria 11 needed to diagnose someone with the effects of PCB 12 poisoning? 13 A, No. 14 Q. Who in Monsanto would have expertise in that area? 15 A. It would be the occupational medicine doctors. 16 Q. And, they're within the Medical Department? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. It's a special subsection on occupational medicine? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. Who heads that up now? 21 A. They report to Dr. Rousch. As I remember, there 22 are six medical doctors in that group. 23 Q. Dr. Rousch is not in that group, but - 24 A. No; but, the occupational medicine group reports to 25 him, and I believe three of the six report directly to WATER PCB-SD0000060691 Papageorge - 100 1 Dr. Rousch as senior medical doctors of occuoational 2 medicine. Then there is the next level, junior level, 3 or some such. The terminology isn't exact, but that's 4 the intent. 5 Q. But, you don't know the names of those doctors under 6 Dr. Rousch? 7 A. Yes, I do. 8 Q. Who are they? 9 A. Alright; there's Dr. Tillman, T-i-l-l-m-a-n, Dr. 10 Spraul, S-p-r-a-u-1, Dr. Barnes, B-a-r-n-e-s, -- 11 Q. Is that the senior level occupational disease -- 12 A. No; this is a mixture. I'm not too sure which is 13 which. This is a recent change. That's why I'm not 14 sure of the exact titles. Then there's Dr. Bonifili, 15 B-o-n-i-f-i-l-i. I believe that covers that covers; 16 the occupational medicine group. 17 Q. Have you seen any documents that reflect what 18 would be needed to make such a diagnosis? 19 A. No. 20 Q. Do you know whether Monsanto has a document either 21 in-house or medical literature to reflect that? 22 A. I'm not aware of any document that refers to health 23 effects and PCB's. Never been discussed in my presence, 24 huh-uh. 25 Q. Never been discussed, the health effects of PCB's on WATER PCB-SD0000060692 Papageorge 101 1 humans? 2 A. I'm a little confused. If I understand your question, 3 you imply that there's a document that ticks off the 4 symptoms that would be present if an individual is 5 over-exposed to PCB's. 6 Q. I'm asking you whether you are aware of anything like 7 that that Monsanto has. 8 A. I'm not aware of any such thing, no. 9 Q. With regard to the manufacturing of PCB's, do you - 10 and let's start at the en(jf 1977, right before you quit 11 the production of PCB's -- 12 A. Uh-huh. 13 Q. -- would a chemical analysis or quality control analysis 14 have been done of the product at that point in time 15 or a sample taken and analyzed in detail before being 16 shipped to the customer? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. Each shipment would be so anyalyzed? 19 A. Yes. Each -- I don't want to mislead you. A shipment 20 may consist of more than one lot, especially if the 21 material is in packages, drums, buckets, smaller 22 containers. 23 Q. Do you know what type units Sangamo ordered? Was it 24 in bulk sample or 55-gallon drums or -- 25 A. I would only be speculating. I WATER PCB-SD0000060693 Papageorge - 102 1 Q. You don't know that; the sales records will show that? 2 A. Uh-huh. 3 Q. But, in your analysis, did it show other chemicals 4 appearing in the liquid solution in addition to these 5 polychlorinated biphenyl molecules? 6 A. There was reference to other chemicals, other 7 undesirable materials being present. And, we'd look 8 for them and assure they're not there. 9 Q. Like what? 10 A. Moisture, water, chlorine, salt, sodium chloride. 11 It's been a long time since I've seen those, but ther^ 12 is an attempt to -- 13 Q. You mentioned a chemical earlier, fluchloros (sic) or 14 I forgot what the term was that you said. It would 15 be polychlorinated, maybe dibro -- 16 MS. HERDINA: Dibenzo furan. 17 A. Oh, with the Japanese incident; is that when I mentioned 18 it? 19 Q. You might have. I don't know when you mentioned it. 20 But, would that be something that you would check for 21 in those samples? 22 A. No. 23 Q. Would the equipment pick that up if it were there? 24 A. T don't know what equipment you have in mind. 25 Q. Whatever you used to check the batches. WATER PCB-SD0000060694 Papageorge - 103 1 A. Oh, it's many pieces of equipment, each one doing 2 its thing. 3 Q. Would it be possible that the PCB's would have some 4 of those chemicals in there? 5 A. Under certain conditions,those chemicals could be 6 produced. It's possible, yes. 7 Q. In the manufacturing process, that -- just like you 8 say, you get the different chlorine counts on the 9 molecules. Is that a slight variation from the 10 molecular system that you discussed earlier? 11 A. Yes. There is a chemical variation, yes. 12 Q. Can you describe to me what the chemical variation - 13 tell me that name again. 14 A, It's dibenzo, d-i-b-e-n-z-o, furan, f-u-r-a-n. 15 Q. What is the molecular structure of that? 16 A. If you remember, earlier I talked about the two 17 hexagon configurations graphically describing 18 biphenyl. If you can picture adjacent corners of 19 these hexagons now connected by oxygen, that 20 configuration is now the dibenzo. Hi means two 21 benzene rings and the furan refers to the oxygen being 22 hooked on, now. That is a dibenzo furan. Now the 23 remaining corners can contain chlorines. Now, this 24 time instead of up to ten, it can only go up to eight 25 because two of them have been taken up by the oxygen. WATER PCB-SD0000060695 Papageorge - 104 1 Q. By the oxygen. 2 A. So, that's what happens chemically under certain 3 conditions. You have to have oxygen present and 4 temperatures have to be a certain kind. 5 Q, To your knowledge, has that ever been a substance 6 that has been created durinq the manufacturing process 7 of PCB's? 8 A. My knowledge regarding furans goes back to a study 9 made by the European laboratory that we visited in 10 which they found these kinds of chemicals, furans, 11 in European material and did not find it in the 12 Monsanto material, either the U.S. or the United 13 Kingdom Monsanto material. 14 Q. You five got a plant that makes PCB's or made PCB's ove:: 15 there? 16 A. We had one, yes; same Monsanto process. And, they 17 were asking us why our material didn't have it in 18 it and they wanted to know what the difference was. 19 We could only speculate because we don't know what 20 the competitions' procedures are to account for the 21 difference. 22 Q. Have you ever seen PCB's break down when used in a 23 customer's facility or in the environment to create 24 the dibenzo furan? 25 A. No, I've never seen that. WATER PCB-SD0000060696 Papageorge - 105 1 Q. It's got to have high temperature and some other 2 factors? 3 A. My understanding is they have to have high temperatures, 4 it has to have a source of oxygen. 5 Q. But, the test that was run wouldn't show those up 6 because you weren't looking for them? 7 A. That's true, because it takes a different methodology, 8 You have to prepare the sample differently and run it 9 through special equipment to look for the furans. 10 Q. The manufacturing process that we discussed, were thefe 11 ever any major changes or modifications in it from 12 the time you got familiar with it, I guess, as Plant 13 Manager in '64? 14 A. The pnly major change I'm aware of is the change we 15 made when we produced Aroclor 1016. That's the only 16 major change in terms of the manufacturing process, 17 not in the waste control, water control additions 18 that we made. Those were different kinds of changes, 19 Q. Well, that's what my question was directed to. Other] 20 than the United Kingdom, any other plants produce PCB's 21 internationally? 22 A, For Monsanto? 23 Q. Monsanto. 24 A. We had a Japanese Monsanto unit. 25 Q. When did those two stop producing PCB's? WATER_PCB-SD0000060697 Papageorge - 106 1 A. I really don't remember. The program was identical 2 for Monsanto worldwide, but I believe the Japanese 3 finished -- terminated sooner than the United Kingdom 4 well, I'm guessing; I don't remember. Pretty close. 5 Q. Did they ship any of those manufactured processes into 6 the United States from anywhere? 7 A. No; no. 8 Q. How was the PCB transported to Sangamo in South 9 Carolina? 10 A. As I said earlier, I don't know soecifically. I can 11 guess that they use large volumes, therefore, it 12 would be tank cars, rail cars. 13 Q. Would those tank cars be owned by Monsanto? 14 A. Yes; owned or leased by us. They were under our control. 15 Q. I think at some point in time you had control of this 16 incineration process of disposing of waste? 17 A. Uh-huh. 18 Q. And, that was done in Anniston -- 19 A. No. 20 Q. -- or in Illinois? 21 A. Illinois. 22 Q. That's the only place you had that incineration process? 23 A. Correct. 24 Q. Why does that break down the PCB's? I mean, what does i' 25 do? Does it chemically change what had been WATER PCB-SD0000060698 Papageorge - 107 1 created by your manufacturing process? 2 A, Yes. 3 Q. Into what? 4 A. It forms carbon dioxide, that takes care of the carborj 5 it forms hydrochloric gas, that takes care of the 6 hydrogen and the chlorine. So, that totally destroys 7 the PCB. It's one of those two gases. 8 Q. You don't end up with benzene as a by-product or an 9 end result from that incineration? 10 A. If you do improper incineration, you could end up witlj 11 all kinds of things. 12 Q. But, the incineration turns everything into a gas? 13 A. Two gases: carbon dioxide and hydrochloric gas. 14 Q. Is that possible or was it used on the customer's 15 facility by them having their own incineration processes 16 at any time, to your knowledge? 17 A. I believe one of our customers purchased their own 18 incinerator. But, in general, unless you have high 19 volumes of materials, it's better to use a common unit| 20 somewhere. 21 Q. Who purchased it themselves? 22 A. General Electric. 23 Q. At what facility? 24 A, I -- 25 Q. Don't know? WATER PCB-SD0000060699 Paoageorge - 108 1 A. I'm not certain. 2 Q. The incineration you had, that started in '71 in 3 Illinois? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. You got shipments in back from all of your customers 6 to incinerate? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. Do you know what kind of volume you got back from 9 Sangamo in Pickens? 10 A. I don't remember anymore. I used to get the records 11 each month as to how much was received at the Illinois 12 site from where. 13 Q, Were you dealing in pounds, tons, 55-gallon drums, - 14 A. They were reported in thousands of pounds. 15 Q. How often would a shipment come in from a customer 16 such as Sangamo? Is it a once-a-month shipment coming 17 in or -- 18 A. It was sporadic. 19 Q. Did you use the Sangamo trucks to haul it back in? 20 A. I don't know what trucks they used. 21 Q. You shipped out the PCB's in Monsanto trucks? 22 A. Uh-huh, yes; tank cars. 23 Q. Tank cars ? 24 A. Uh-huh. 25 Q. Would it have come back with the same type transportation WATER PCB-SD0000060700 Papageorge - 109 1 or would it come back generally in 55-gallon drums; 2 do you know? 3 A. I don't know in what form it returned from Sangamo. 4 Q. You don't know, okay. With regard to this environmental 5 contamination we havd talked about, what if you have a 6 stream or a river that is showing PCB levels; is there 7 a method by which it can be now cleaned up, are the PjCB' s 8 broken down chemically in some way without putting it 9 in an incinerator? 10 A. I am aware of many claims that processes are availably 11 and capable of doing this. I'm not aware of any of 12 them being demonstrated successfully. And, I'm talkijng 13 now about water with very low levels, in the part 14 per billion range, which is the range that's possiblej 15 to be in. Anything over a part per billion range, 16 there is something wrong with the analysis or else 17 the water is cloudy, murky, it has a lot of mud and 18 sediment in it. So, clear water that is found to 19 have PCB's in it would analyze at the part per billior 20 level. And, I'm not aware at the moment of any process 21 that would effectively remove that low of level. The 22 government doesn't know how to do it, the EP.A. 23 Q. Has Monsanto got a group that's monitoring that 24 or doing independent research on that? 25 A. I'm not aware of what programs are in place currently WATER PCB-SD0000060701 Papageorge - 110 1 1 don't know, 2 Q. If you wanted to find out what Monsanto was doing 3 in that area, who would you call? 4 A. I'd go to John Craddock. 5 Q. You say you deal with parts per billion in clear 6 water. If it's parts per million, you would be able 7 to see a cloudiness in the water, then the cloudiness 8 would be caused by the PCB1s? 9 A. No. 10 Q. Tell me that again. I just wasn't following your 11 thought on that. 12 A. Water is not capable in and of itself to contain 13 parts per million levels of PCB's. It just can't pict 14 up that kind of -- they're not compatible. However, 15 water that has particulate matter in it, soil particles 16 sediment, if the PCB's are attached to thohe particles 17 Q. Attached to the sand? 18 A. -- so when the analysis is made on the unfiltered watar 19 sample, you will get an erroneous reading or a good 20 laboratory will filter the water and say: There's 21 so much I found in the whter and so much in the 22 Q. Silt. 23 A. -- in the silts that I collected from my sample. The 24 numbers are different, much different. 25 Q. Would there be anybody outside of Monsanto that if you WATER PCB-SD0000060702 Papageorge - 111 1 wanted to know whether the stream or river could be 2 cleaned up that you would go to to rule that out as 3 a viable alternative besides Mr, Craddock? You said 4 you'd heard of all these claims? 5 A. Yes; I keep reading newspaper clippings. I would go 6 to the EPA and see what they had in the way of new 7 technology. 8 O. Do you know anything or have your lawyers given you 9 anything with regard to the Sangamo situation 10 specifically in preparation for this deposition? 11 MR. MARION: I'm going to object. If 12 you'll ask him if he has reviewed 13 any documents, that might -- 14 Q. I'm not talking about mental impressions your lawyers 15 have given you. I'm talking about facts or documents 16 that you have seen on Sangamo with regard to PCB 17 counts downstream or those types of things. Have you 18 seen any of that data? 19 A. I saw a document in which there were some numbers 20 referring to concentrations of PCB's in I believe 21 it was this T\velve Mile Creek. And, the reason I remember 22 that, the number was in the high level that we just 23 finished talking about. 24 0. Parts per million? 25 MR. MARION: What did you say, parts per i WATER PCB-SD0000060703 Papageorge - 112 1 what? 2 MR. RICHARDSON: Parts per million is whaji 3 I said. 4 A. I believe that was the magnitude, yes. Okay; I did 5 see that document -- a document. 6 MR. RICHARDSON: Frank, if you could tell 7 him -- I'm not:trying to trick any 8 body -- could you identify which 9 document you're talking about or le 10 us see it? I mean, there's hundreds 11 of them; I just don't know which one 12 you're talking about. 13 MR. MARION: I don't know either. It's 14 documents we got through public 15 sources just like you have. As a 16 matter of fact, some of them are 17 referred to in the Complaint. That 18 the only documents I'm aware of tha 19 he would have seen. 20 Q. Was it an EPA or a Department of Health, Environmental 21 Control for the State of South Carolina? 22 A. No; it was one of these legal documents referring to 23 this case. 24 Q. It wasn't our Complaint? 25 A. It might be. I just don't remember. WATER PCB-SD0000060704 FORM 20B4 EN C AD C O .. B A T O N N E , N .J . 0 7 0 0 2f Papageorge - 113 1 MR. BISTLINE: Yes. 2 MR. RICHARDSON; Is that right? 3 Q. Those counts that you saw, if I'm reading you correct P-Y t 4 I get the impression that you're saying that whoever 5 was reading them should have done a little more 6 sophisticated analysis in separating the pure water 7 from the silt and given two different reasons, is 8 that what you're - 9 A. I can't say that. All I can say is that in reading 10 that information, I got the impression it was 11 referring to water samples. And, when I saw the 12 numbers, I reached a skepticism regarding water and 13 those numbers. And, not knowing any more than that, 14 I can't jump into a conclusion; They should have 15 filtered or they should have done this or that. I 16 don't know. All I know is I remained skeptical. Thi s 17 is typical of clear water with PCB's in it. 18 Q. Would the PCB's tend to settle to the bottom because 19 of being heavier than water? 20 A. That is the normal condition. 21 Q. If you made an attempt to mix PCB's with water, would 22 you be able to mix it so that the PCB concentration 23 would, exceed parts per billion, in other words, get 24 down to at least one part per million? 25 A. I suppose if you tried hard enough and used high ener gy WATER PCB-SD0000060705 Paoageorge - 114 1 like an osterizer or something. 2 Q. I don't mean high energy; I mean in an environmental 3 setting, you wouldn't expect it, in other words? 4 A. No; no. 5 Q. When did Monsanto stop incinerating Sangamo PCB's? 6 A. I don't know that. 7 Q. Because you got out of it in '77? 8 A. Yes; but I don't know when Sangamo sent the material 9 or how much Sangamo material was on site and when it 10 was destroyed. I can't answer that. 11 Q. Do you know whether they continued to do it after 12 '77? 13 A. Continued to do what? 14 Q. Send you, Monsanto --- not you personally -- send you, 15 Monsanto,PCB waste products to be incinerated? 16 A. I don't know. 17 Q. Can you inventory these PCB's? Did they have a big 18 storage facility, like you inventory lumber as a raw 19 material to go into a manufacturing process? Do you 20 inventory PCB's or does it come into Sangamo and 21 they've got to use it within 30 days or -- 22 A. It varies from customer to customer. 23 Q. Do you know what type inventory capability Sangamo 24 had at all? 25 A. No. WATER PCB-SD0000060706 Papageorge - 115 1 Q. I asked you about depositions and trial testimony and 2 then I asked you about the lawsuit here in South 3 Carolina back in 1976? 4 A. Uh-huh. 5 Q. Do you know of any other lawsuits involving PCB's 6 that Monsanto has been or is involved in? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. Could you identify those for me? 9 A. I'm certain I can't remember all of them. 10 Q. How many are you talking about? 11 A. Gosh! I remember some dairy cases in Ohio. What 12 else? I understand there's some dairy cases in 13 Michigan pending? I'm also aware of some -- I'm not 14 real clear on this -- there's some cases involving 15 capacitors with a utility on the .West Coast. I don't 16 have any details. 17 Q. California? 18 A. Yeah, Chat's all I can remember. 19 Q. With regard to PCB'^ and because of all of this litig^tio 20 that's going on in this area, do you know whether or hot 21 Monsanto has retained all records that it's ever had with 22 regard to the PCB issue? 23 A. Mo, I don't. 24 Q. Do you know of your own knowledge whether it's ever 25 destroyed any documents that it has ever in the past WATER PCB-SD0000060707 Papageorge - 116 1 had on PCB? 2 A. No, I don't know, 3 Q. Do you know what the record retention policy is of 4 the company? 5 A. I believe I do, yes. 6 Q. What is that? . 7 A. You're asking me to describe a multi-page book. 8 Q. Okay; that's what I wanted to know. So, they've got 9 an extensive record retention plan -- 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. *-- and they save the payroll records X years and the 12 sales records Y years and on down the list? 13 A. That kind of thing, yeah, research records and 14 personnel records and on and on. It covers all of 15 these things. 16 Q. Do you know whether or not Monsanto keeps any kind of| 17 notation of what has, in fact, been destroyed under 18 the retention program, in other words, like these anifmal 19 studies that were done apparently in the 'SO's or 20 before? If those had been destroyed, would there 21 be some notation at least that they had been 22 destroyed? 23 A. I'm not aware of any notes of that kind being kept, 24 what was destroyed; I'm not aware of any. 25 Q. Who was in charge of the record retention plan for WATER PCB-SD0000060708 Papageorge - 117 1 the company, do you know? 2 A, I don't know that there was any specific person in 3 charge. Each manager is responsible for complying anjl 4 is to report annually. He certifies that he is in 5 compliance. I suppose if anybody is in charge, it's 6 the top executive of the corporation. 7 Q, When that manager reports or certifies he's done it, 8 he didn't give a list: Yes; I've done it and these ate 9 the things I destroyed? 10 A. I've never seen anything like that. 11 Q. Are you aware of whether or not in this environmental 12 contamination area i-- if PCB' s are showing up, say, 13 in drinking water, have you ever known of a situationj 14 where there have been filters put on that drinking 15 water to try to filter out the PCB' s, are you fami] ia| 16 with that at all? 17 A. I've never heard or involved in any drinking water 18 PCB situation. I've never heard of any. 19 Q. You've never even heard of those types filters being 20 in existence? 21 A. That is true. 22 Q. From what you know about PCB's, would it be possible 23 to filter out the PCB's from water? I mean, is that 24 a technology that exists that you could do that? If 25 you had, say, parts per billion in water and wanted tj WATER PCB-SD0000060709 Papageorge - 118 1 filter it out, can you do that? 2 A. Knowing what I know about the tenacity with which PCB's 3 will cling to particulate matter, I can see where it's -- 4 yes, it's possible to find a filter media that will 5 work. 6 Q. Monsanto has never been involved in trying to filter 7 water to expunge PCB's from it, to your knowledge? 8 A. No. 9 Q. So, when you had these holding ponds where the waste 10 goes and then you take off the water and put it into 11 the city system and then you drudge out the sludge, - 12 A. Uh-huh. 13 Q. -- they never have a filter anywhere in that system; 14 it's just a normal settling process that they rely 15 upon? 16 A. That is correct, yes. 17 Q. Are you familiar with the effort Monsanto made to have 18 PCB's incorporated into insecticides? 19 A. There was no such effort. 20 Q, In other words, you're knowledgable about their effor : 21 with regard to insecticides and you know for sure tha : 22 they never discussed PCB's with regard to the 23 insecticides at all? 24 A. I'm aware of the discussion of insecticides in PCB's, 25 but this was a discussion in which we found out that WATER PCB-SD0000060710 Papageorge - 119 1 the U.S. Department of Agriculture had conducted 2 studies in which they used PCB's to extend the effective 3 life of the active ingredients, had published technical 4 articles and promoted, encouraged, the formulation of 5 such products, When we found out about it, our 6 Medical Director, Dr. Kelly, wrote to the Department 7 of Agriculture suggesting that they not approve such 8 formulations using PCB1s to extend the active life 9 of the ingredient. 10 Q. And, the reason it extended the active life is becaus^ 11 it adhered to the leaves or some such -- 12 A. No; that's a misunderstanding. We too thought that 13 the presence of PCB's so widely could have come from 14 aircraft spraying of pesticides. That was our first 15 thought. It turns out that's not true. This use 16 as an extender in pesticides was primarily limited 17 to internal use to control house pests, roaches and 18 the like. And, the idea was that when you spray 19 it on the pantry shelf, the active ingredient would 20 not volatilize and disappear. The PCB's, because of 21 their sticky nature,would keeo it there and then the 22 insect would be more ant to be exposed for a longer 23 period of time. That was the pesticide PCB connectioif 24 We were told by the Department of Agriculture, which 25 at that time was in charge of registration of pesticide WATER PCB-SD0000060711 Papageorge - 120 1 before EPA, that the number of formulations permitted 2 under that old system were minuscule and apparently 3 the market was never too big, but it was there. 4 Q. So, that's something that Monsanto never researched, 5 considered or promulgated? 6 A. That is correct. 7 Q. About what point in time did Monsanto find out 8 the Department of Agriculture was doing that 9 research? 10 A. This was in early 1970 -- no; I'm sorry -- yes; early 11 1970 is when we first became aware of this. 12 Q. Have you ever seen in the literature whether or not 13 it's been published that PCB's have an affect on unbc rn 14 fetuses? 15 MR. COCKRILL: Human fetuses? 16 MR. RICHARDSON: Yes. 17 A. Let me think a bit. There's so many allegations and 18 all in the popular press, I don't recall seeing 19 such an allegation in a technical article, but I do 20 remember do seeing that statement in some printed 21 matter. 22 Q. Do you know whether Monsanto has done research into 23 that specific point, animal studies or evaluations 24 of any kind? 25 A. Yes; I'm aware of reproduction studies vrith rats. WATER PCB-SD0000060712 Papageorge - 121 1 Q. When were those studies done? 2 A. They were started in '69 and completed about 1971 or 3 thereabouts. 4 Q. What were the results? 5 A. It was a three-generation reproduction study. As I 6 remember, at the high levels -- and this is 100 parts 7 per million in the daily diet of the test animal - 8 of the 1260, the higher chlorinated, the fetuses 9 weren't deformed; it just never produced. So, the 10 number of live births reduced at the high levels. 11 But,, there was no indication of deformed fetuses or 12 teratogenicity as it's called. 13 Q. Monsanto has got all of those reports and data? 14 A. Yes, they do. 15 Q. During the time you were the PCB man for Monsanto, 16 '70 to '75 or 6, did you approve any public statements 17 of Monsanto with regard to PCB health issues or did 18 you have input or draft them, or what was your role 19 with regard to the public relations issue? 20 A. Oh, I had, I guess, all of those roles at one point or 21 another. There were times I would prepare drafts of 22 these statements; there were others when I was asked 23 to review a draft prepared by others. I was part of 24 a group that would approve-- there was no single 25 oerson approving. WATER PCB-SD0000060713 Papaqeorge - 122 1 Q. I understand, Mr. Papageorge, that Monsanto made 2 some statements, public statements, took a public 3 position, with regard to these Japanese studies. 4 A. Uh-huh. 5 Q. Did they do that, to your kowledge? 6 A. I'm trying to think of a specific statement relating 7 to -- I don't remember it at the moment. 8 Q. How about any other published articles in the 9 literature, any public statements or comments or 10 opinions that Monsanto would have expressed? 11 MR. MARION: On the Japanese incident? 12 MR. RICHARDSON: I'm not limiting it to 13 that. ' 14 Q. Maybe the Swedish incident that came up or -- 15 A. We responded to the fact that we were aware of 16 the Swiss original work and that we were hard at 17 work trying to understand it. We responded to, as 18 I remember, a report that came out of the Mobile 19 Chemical Company. It was a study in which there was 20 a reference to some Mobile employees exhibiting a 21 cancer known as melanoma. And, as I remember, our 22 medical coctor responded that: That sure was a 23 strange finding; we hadn't observed it, comments of 24 that type. I don't remember any other specifics. 25 Q. Where would we find those? Have you got a PR Departir ent WATER PCB-SD0000060714 Papageorge - 123 1 that saves all those kinds of -- , 2 A. I don't know what they save. Again, I would go to our 3 attorneys. For ^ product like PCB's, which we no longer 4 manufacture, there is no active custodian, to my 5 knowledge, of the records or the papers. 6 Q. The Anniston plant, did it ship directly to Sangamo? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. Did it have any direct shioments from Illinios also 9 or did everything come out of Anniston just because 10 it was closer? 11 A. I think the supply of the material was from both 12 plants. 13 Q. There wasn't any reason to do part of the process in 14 Alabama and ship it to Illinois for further processing, 15 was there? 16 A. No. 17 Q. It was a complete operation -- 18 A. (Nods head affirmatively.) 19 Q. Was there any other product sold to Sangamo besides 20 what we've been referring to as PCB' s, to your knowledge, 21 other chemicals? 22 A. I do not know. 23 Q. Other than the incineration of waste that we've talkec 24 about, was there ever any storage by Monsanto of waste 25 of PCB's of any of its customers? WATER PCB-SD0000060715 Papageorge - 124 1 A. There was a storage of the liquid waste intended for 2 the incinerator. 3 Q. What, a year before the incinerator went on line? 4 A. Roughly a year, yes. We told our customers that: We're 5 planning on this unit? you may want to send it to us 6 and we'll store it, and when the unit is on stream, 7 we will destroy the material. So, there was that 8 initial storage. And, later it became a matter of 9 just someplace to put the material before we could 10 run'it through the incinerator, a smaller 11 volume, in other words. 12 Q. But, other than that, did you or Monsanto ever do any 13 storage or even burial of the PCB's for the customers' 14 A. No; no burial. 15 Q. Did the Monsanto sales representatives ever get 16 involved with obtaining sites, chemical burial sites ,| 17 for customers? 18 A. Not to my knowledge. (Shakes head negatively.) 19 Q. Did Monsanto do any studies of the stream running awa^ 20 from the Anniston, Alabama plant to see the environmental 21 effects on the silt or the water or the PCB levels 22 in that stream at any point in time? 23 A. Yes; there were some studies, fish studies, made. 24 Q. Did Monsanto conduct those? 25 A. No? Monsanto had others do the work. I'm trying to WATER PCB-SD0000060716 Papageorge - 125 1 remember who they were. Some university group did thj 2 work. 3 Q. What were the results of those studies? 4 A. I don't recall anything dramatic.. They were present 5 the PCB's were present, but I don't remember any 6 conclusion that tried to described unwanted effects. 7 It wasn't dramatic enough for me to remember, but -- Q. Again, you would call the Legal Department if you wanjted 8 9 to see those documents? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. Would they also be'maintained at the Anniston plant o 12 do you know? 13 A. I would be very surprised if it's at the Anniston pla|nt. 14 Q. Do you have a group called the Specialty Chemicals 15 Division? 16 A. That was the --one of the -- at a point in time, the 17 functional fluids products were assigned to the 18 Specialty Chemicals Division, yes. 19 Q. And, under that division, the Specialty Chemicals 20 Division? 21 A. The fluids were under the Specialty Chemicals, yes. 22 Q. When was that, do you remember? 23 A. About 1973, somewhere in there. 24 Q. Until - 25 A. Well, that terminology exists today. We still have WATER PCB-SD0000060717 Papageorge - 126 1 a Specialty Chemicals Division. 2 Q. Are these functional products under that? 3 A. Still under that, yes, 4 Q. Who is EarlHarbaso.n? 5 A. He is an Executive Vice-President of Monsanto. 6 Q. What is his present position? 7 A. That is his present. Executive Vice-President. 8 Q. Of what, some division, department or just Executive 9 Vice-President of the company? 10 A. He has the International Division assigned to him: 11 he has -- 12 Q. In the past - 13 A. Excuse me. 14 Q. Go ahead. 15 A. He has assignments within Monsanto to watch over. 16 Q. In the past, has he ever had any involvement with 17 PCB products, to your knowledge? 18 A. Yes; he was the -- I believe> if my memory serves me 19 right, there was a point in time when Mr. Harbason 20 was a Vice-President and Managing Director of the 21 operating unit in Monsanto to which the Specialty 22 Chemicals group reported. 23 Q. So, in that way, he would have had some stinervisory 24 responsibility over the PCB's? 25 A, Yes. WATER PCB-SD0000060718 Papageorge - 127 1 Q. How about Dan Eishop? 2 A. What about him? 3 Q. Do you know him? 4 A. Yes, 5 Q. What involvement has he had in the past with PCB's? 6 A. He is a public relations professional. 7 Q. Is he still in that department within Monsanto? 8 A. He is still in that department, yes. 9 Q. Would he have assisted in drafting any public state- - j::' 10 ments that Monsanto would have made? ji':. } 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. He's in St. Louis? 13 A. Yes. -aljiir 14 Q. Did Monsanto ever hire any consultants or outside 15 personnel with regard to the PCB issues other than, 16 I guess, this creek that runs away from the Anniston, 17 Alabama plant? you told me about that. 18 A. Uh-huh. Well, the animal tests that were conducted, 19 I would call them consulting laboratories. .20 0 They were not in-house? 21 A. That is correct. All the animal studies were done -- 22 Q. Who did they use? 23 A. Industrial Bio-Test laboratories was one of the laboraaorie' 24 Q. Industrial Bio-Test Laboratories? 25 A. Yes. Chicago, Illinois area; Northbrook, I believe. WATER PCB-SD0000060719 Papageorge - 128 1 Q. Northbrook, Illinois? 2 A. I think that's the area. 3 Q. Do you know the man's name that was the liaison to 4 Monsanto with that group? 5 A. There was no single person. We dealt with many in 6 the laboratory. But, Dr. Callandra was the spokesman 7 when we needed his contribution at symposiums or 8 discussions with the Federal agencies. Dr. Callandra 9 would be the person to join Monsanto people and 10 participate. 11 Q. He was the spokesman with regard to most of the anima[L 12 studies or were there other labs that did some of the 13 animal studies? 14 A. I don't recall any other laboratories that were involved. 15 So, it had to be just the one. 16 Q. When you visited Sangamo, did you notice any waste 17 water facilties that they were using or did you 18 evaluate them? 19 A. I have forgotten frankly. Nothing is vivid anymore. 20 Q. The comment has been used in some of this literature: 21 Non-detectable levels of PCB. What is a non-detectabl 22 level? 23 MR. MARION: To what literature are you 24 referring? 25 MR. RICHARDSON: Newspaper articles. No WATER PCB-SD0000060720 Papageorge - 129 1 scientific literature. I don't 2 believe it's a scientific term, but 3 it might be. 4 A. Oh, yes; it's a very valid term. 5 Q. Oh, it is? 6 A. Yes. And, no matter how sophisticated the analytical! 7 methods are, all of them have a lofrer limit in which 8 the chemist has confidence. Any number below that, 9 he feels uneasy because he knows the limitation of 10 the whole process, from taking the sample to reading the answer out of the instrument. So, they established, 11 12 after a time validating their methods and all, some 13 number below which they are -- they have no confidenoja* 14 And, that's referred to as the detectable level for 15 this material, using this method, using this kind of 16 instrument. And, then when they report the result?, 17 they say non-detectable. And,that in itself isn't 18 enough; you have to know more about what method was 19 used, what instrument was used to give you -- now, 20 many will now say non-detectable, then they'll go on 21 to say detectable limit is so-and-so. So, it is becoming 22 more and more common these days. 23 Q. Alright; I see what you're saying. In your ooinion, 24 is it detrimental for someone who is a landowner alonjg 25 a stream to have PCB counts that are detectable similar WATER PCB-SD0000060721 Papageorge - 130 1 to what you saw in our Complaint or that report, thos 2 types of levels on the property? 3 MR. COCKRILL: I just want to make a 4 comment here. I know that under th 5 rules all objections are reserved, 6 save those going to the form of the 7 question, but I just want to point 8 out that I haven't heard anything t hat 9 would show Mr. Papageorge to be 10 competent in this area. But, with 11 that -- 12 A. That was going to be my answer. 13 Q. I give you more credit than he does, Mr. Papageorge. 14 A. Well, I was going to answer: I don't know that I 15 have the qualifications for responding to your 16 question. 17 Q. But, you're very knowledgable on behalf of Monsanto. 18 Would you, if you had your druthers, rather have the 19 PCB's in the land and your home or not? 20 MR. MARION: Just note an objection to th|e 21 form. Go ahead. 22 A. My personal opinion. I am so familiar with PCB's 23 personally that I just don't find them an issue at 24 all. It wouldn't bother me at all because I know 25 that my land has other things that I can get excited WATER PCB-SD0000060722 Papageorge - 131 1 about, like arsenic and selenium and all kinds of 2 goodies if you really looked. So, in my opinion, it 3 wouldn't bother me at all if it were on my land. 4 Q. Would it make a difference to you with your children 5 have you got children -- 6 A. Uh-huh. 7 Q. -- if they had PCB levels in their blood counts? 8 A. I suspect they do, I suspect we all do, as I said 9 earlier. It's unfortunate, but it's there. But, I 10 don't equate presence with problem necessarily. 11 Q. Well, then why, as one of the decision-makers with 12 Monsanto, did you bother to discontinue the use of 13 PCB's? 14 A, It's more of a philosophical kind of thought that 15 occurs: Should it be there; what right have we to 16 make a material that ends up in the human body. Even] 17 though we don't see any harm, it just doesn't seem 18 right. And, we >-- we don't want to be associated tyi tfc 19 that question mark. So, let's stop making it until wte. 20 learn more. 21 MR. RICHARDSON: Let me speak to Susa,n 22 just a minute. 23 (WHEREUPON, Mr. Richardson and Ms. Herdir la 24 adjourn from the proceedings and re tum 25 MR. RICHARDSON: I don't have anymore WATER PCB-SD0000060723 Papageorge - 132 1 questions. Thank you, Mr. Papageorge. 2 MR. GEDDIE: I have a few. 3 EXAMINATION (By Mr. Geddie): 4 5 Q. Mr. Papageorge, I represent Sangamo, and I just have 6 a few questions for you. Is the Anniston plant still 7 in operation? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. It obviously no longer manufactures PCB's? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. The treatment process that you described when you 12 were Plant Manager there in the late '60's up to 13 1970 -- and just to summarize, you described it 14 as basically a settling pond with neutralization and 15 then release -- was that the state of the art, as 16 far as you were concerned at that time? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. Up until when, or is it still? 19 A. I would suggest that it's still the state of the art.. 20 Q. I believe you testified that you had no recollection of 21 Sangamo's treatment facilities from your 1970 visit? 22 A. That is correct. 23 Q. What other locations or companies did you visit during 24 25 WATER PCB-SD0000060724 Papageorge - 133 1 that 1970 tour? 2 MR. MARION: Say that again. 3 MR. GETTIE: What other companies did he 4 visit with the dog and pony show? 5 MR. MARION: I'm going to object. We're hot 6 going to get into our customer list| 7 I instruct him not to answer. 8 MR. GETTIE: You're going to instruct him| 9 not to answer? 10 MR. MARION: If you don't want specific 11 companies -- I'm not going to get 12 into that. 13 MR. GETTIE: I believe we have a right to 14 know that. p 15 MR. MARION: You can take it up. We're no 16 going to get into the othej: <?ompani|es. 17 Q. Mr. Papageorge, did these other companies have similar 18 treatment facilities to Monsanto in Anniston? V. St* H: 19 A. No. `f 20 Q. Do you understand my question? 21 A. I understand the question. But, our customers are 22 different from Monsanto. When you make the materials 23 you end up with water streams; when you use the materj. 24 you don't necessarily end up -- you shouldn't end up 25 with any water streams. WATER PCB-SD0000060725 Pagageorge - 134 1 Q. Did you visit the General Electric plant Hudson Falls, 2 New York? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. How would you describe the treatment at that plant? 5 A. I'm not aware of any treatment. I don't remember any 6 treatment. 7 Q. Was it a capacitor manufacturing plant? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. Was G.E. at that location, in fact, your largest 10 customer? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. Did you visit a plant by the name of Aerovox in 13 Massachussetts? 14 A. Yes, 15 Q. Was the treatment at that plnat the same roughly as 16 the Anniston plant? 17 A. No, 18 Q. How did it differ? 19 A. I don't recall seeing any facilities specifically 20 designed to treat their waste waters. 21 Q. What was the system, if you recall it, at Aerovox? 22 A. I don't recall. 23 Q. Did you visit the Sprague Electric Company also in 24 Massachussetts, I believe? 25 A. Yes. WATER PCB-SD0000060726 Papageorge - 135 1 Q. Do you recall anything of their treatment facilities? 2 A. I don't recall seeing any treatment facilities. 3 Q. Did you visit Electromotive in Florence, South 4 Carolina? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. Do you recall anything of their treatment facilities? 7 A. No. 8 Q. Were they a capacitor manufacturer? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. Did they use PCB's? 11 A. Yes. 12 MR. GEDDIE: That's all the questions I f 13 14 have, MR. WHITE: My name is Dan White; I 15 represent Schlumberger, Limited. 16 I v/ould like to read two things into 17 the record. This first point might 18 go at the beginning of the depositic n. 19 Schlumberger has filed a motion to 20 dismiss and a motion for Protectiv^ 21 Order. And, by appearing at tfri*Sf 22 deposition noticed by the plaintiff f 1 iJV t ,iv. 23 we are not waiving any positions 24 asserted in these motions, but 25 rather,we are expressedly reserving PENGAD C O ., BAYONNE, N J , WATER PCB-SD0000060727 Papageorge - 136 1 our rights thereunder. 2 MR. RICHARDSON; You're a little late on 3 that, aren't you, Mr. White? 4 MR. WHITE: Better late than never. And, 5 in fact, the motion for Protective 6 Order is scheduled for a hearing onj 7 Monday morning at 9:30 here in 8 Greenville on March 18th. 9 Additionally, during this depositio)P, 10 the deponent has been questioned 11 about matters not covered by 12 Schedule A attached to the Depositi pn 13 Notice regarding the scope of the 14 deposition. Schedule A indicates 15 that Monsanto's official would be 16 questioned regarding number 1: The 17 business history between Sangamo 18 Weston and Monsanto; number 2: The 19 business history between Schlumbergjeit. 20 Limited and Monsanto; number 3: 21 Current activities or business 22 engaged in within the state of 23 South Carolina. Schlumberger rese rlv es 24 the right to redepose this witness ht a 25 later date regarding the matters WATER PCB-SD0000060728 Papageorge - 137 1 inquired into today but not covered 2 by the Deposition Notice. 3 MR. GEDDIE: I might add as to that last 4 part, Sangamo Weston reserves that 5 same right, 6 MR. RICHARDSON: Based on jurisdiction? 7 MR. GEDDIE: No, no; based on the scope 8 of the deposition. 9 MR. WHITE: Scope of the Deposition Notice. 10 MR. GEDDIE: The Deposition Notice was 11 very specific and very narrow, and 12 the deposition itself was very 13 nonspecific and very broad. 14 MR. MARION- I'll just put on the record 15 too that we're here, and if you've 16 got questions, you can ask him. 17 The objections weren't made when 18 the questions were asked by any of 19 you. If you wanted, to. reserve it, I 20 suggest you should have reserved 21 it at the time the questions were 22 asked. He is here today; if you 23 have questions, ask them. Otherwise, 24 you can petition the Court. 25 MR. GEDDIE: Fine. WATER PCB-SD0000060729 PENCAD CO .. iA T O N N E . N.J. Panageorge - 138 1 MR. WHIT**-: All objections, except as to 2 the form, were reserved, and we 3 don't think that sort of objection 4 I just read into the record needed 5 to be made at the time the questions 6 were asked. 7 MR. MARION: Take it up with the Court. 8 MR. RICHARDSON: I've got another question. 9 FURTHER EXAMINATION (By Mr. Richardson): 10 11 Q. You said something about they shouldn't have water 12 streams? Did I misunderstand something? Explain that 13 term to me. 14 A. This is based on my understanding of what it takes 15 to introduce PCB's into capacitors, and I know that 16 I understand how PCB's are made. When PCB's are made, 17 water is a product of that process, and that water 18 contains hydrochloric acid, which is also generated as 19 we make the PCB's. Those undesirable components 20 must be removed from the PCB's. This is why the 21 manufacturer ends up with a water stream that contains 22 PCB's, They must be very careful not to freely dump 23 that into the city sewer system but to hold it up 24 a bit and let the PCB's settle out and let what little 25 remains in the water go forward. It's my understanding WATER PCB-SD0000060730 Papageorge - 139 1 that in the manufacture -- and what I observed in thl 2 manufacture -- of capacitors, it would be ideal to just 3 keep water out of that building, whatever. You don't 4 need water. So, the PCB's and the water never need t 5 get together; therefore, I can see where a treatment 6 system that the manufacturer has would not be at all 7 appropriate for a treatment system of a similar natur 8 at the capacitor manufacturing plant. I don't know ilf 9 that helped you any. 10 Q. Did you tell Sangamo that in 1970? 11 A. The thoughts were there? I don't know if I used those 12 exact words. 13 Q. Did that appear in any of the other, say, the January 14 1970 letter you talked about or any of that, not mixing 15 the water at all with PCB? 16 A. No; the theme we kept harping on was just keep PCB's 17 away from water and you won't have all these complex 18 problems of getting it out of the water. That's the 19 theme. We recognize in the real world that's dam 20 difficult to do. But, that was a target we all shot 21 for. I don't know if we all met it successfully, but 22 we -- that's what we strove for. 23 Q. You said it took the PCB's a bit to settle out. How 24 long did it take the PCB's to settle out of the wate 25 in the holding pond? WATER PCB-SD0000060731 Papageorge - 140 1 A, I don't have any numbers. This varies on the water 2 flow; it varies on the -- in our ponds, we had -- 3 they're not just lagoons, they were pits full of 4 gravel -- not gravel -- limestone, crushed limestone. 5 So, this neutralized the acid; and as it was 6 neutralizing, it would create particles, and the 7 particles would help trap the PCB's and they, in turn, 8 would settle. I don't have any numbers. As I said 9 earlier, -- 10 Q. Are you talking about a week or six months or - 11 A. I would guess it's more near a week or two than the 12 six months. C 13 14 MR. RICHARDSON: That's all I've got. Thank you, sir. 15 (WHEREUPON, the deposition was concluded 16 at 5:07. P.M.) 17 18 (Signature Waived) WILLIAM B. PAPAGEORGE 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 PENGAD CO .. BAYO NNE. N.J. WATER PCB-SD0000060732 Papageorge - 141 1 STATE OF NORTH CAROLINA) ) CERTIFICATE 2 COUNTY OF MECKLENBURG ) 3 4 I, Romelia M. Adams, Notary Public, do hereby certifyj 5 that WILLIAM B. PAPAGEORGE was duly sworn by me prior to 6 the taking of his deposition; that said deposition was takjJi en 7 by me and transcribed under my supervision; and that the 8 foregoing one hundred forty (140) pages are a true and 9 accurate transcript of the testimony of the said WILLIAM 10 B. PAPAGEORGE. I further certify that the persons were 11 present as stated. 12 I further certify that I am not of counsel for or in 13 the employment of any of the parties to this action, nor 14 am I interested in the result of said action. 15 IN WITNESS WHEREOF, I have hereunto subscribed my nan] 16 this ajL day of _____________________1985. 17 (" 18 ROMELIA M. ADAMS 19 Notary Public 20 My Commission Expires: 21 November 14, 1986 22 23 NOTE: Unless otherwise requested in writing, the tapes 24 for this deposition will be retained for 30 days 25 from the date of this Certificate. WATER PCB-SD0000060733