Document jgEBGd2zMMLw1qnNznOXarK5O

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 DOST DIRECT 7^2 W 21054 c e r t a i n , b u t I b e l i e v e it was in the o r d e r of 1983 ^ or '82, r e l a t i v e l y recently.'.'- \ Q. A l l r i g h t , sir. D o c t o r , I ' d l i k e to m o v e on to . another area and' talk with.'you about target organ t o x i c i t y , if I; n a y . .. . H a v e -you had o c c a s i o n to r e v i e w the scientific l i t e r a t u r e on the effects of TCDD on the various organs and systems' of the body? A. I ' m a f r a i d s o . Q. Do y o u h a v e an o p i n i o n as to w h e t h e r T C D D c a n a dversely affect the following systems or organs, and I'm g o i n g to name these t h ings for you, doctor, and what I w a n t to know, here, is if y o u h a v e an opinion. The skin? A . Yes . . Q. T h e i m m u n e s y s t e m ? A . Yes. Q . The 1 iv er ? A. Yes. Q. P o r p h y r i n s y n t h e s i s ? A. It can, yes. Q. C a r d i o v a s c u l a r s y s t e m ? A. At p e r h a p s v e r y h i g h d o s e s . Q. W h a t I w a n t to k n o w is if y o u h a v e an o p i n i o n , doctor. I d o n 't want your opinion at this point. 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 DOST - DIRECT 21055 n. I see, yes, I h a v e an o p i n i o n . Q. G a s t r o i n t e s t i n a l s y s t e m ? A . Yes. . ... ...... : Q. N e u r o l o g i c a l s y s t e m ? A. I h a v e an o p i n i o n , yes. .1 ' 0 Reproductive system? A. Y e s . Q. A n d f i n a l l y , the e n d o c r i n e s y s t e m ? A . Yes. Q. A l l r i g h t , sir. Do y o u h a v e an o p i n i o n as to whether TCDD can cause mutagenic effects? A. I d o h a v e an o p i n i o n , , yes. .: Q. Do y o u h a v e an o p i n i o n as to w h e t h e r T C D D c a n cause carcinogenic effects? A . Yes. Jm Q. A l l r i g h t , sir. N o w -- THE COURT: Do I u n d e r s t a n d it that the w i t n e s s has b e e n r e f e r r i n g to an o p i n i o n w h i c h he holds on all these m a t t e r s with respect to humans? Is that the q u e s t i o n ? MR. LOVE: Based upon the literature. T H E C O U R T : Is that t rue, si r ? Y o u w e r e r e f e r r i n g to h u m a n s ? THE WITNESS: I was really thinking both in t e r m s of a n i m a l s and h u m a n s . 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 DOST DIRECT 21056 THi) C O U R T : But at a n y rate, both. THE WITNESS: At any rate, both, yes, sir. THE COURT: Thank you. BY MR. LOVE: ... .. Q. A l l r i g h t , d o c t o r , l e t ' s t a l k a b o u t the s k i n first. W h a t I i n t e n d to do now is go t h r o u g h e a c h one of these with you. W h a t is y o u r o p i n i o n as to w h e t h e r T C D D can adversely affect the skin? A. It ca n a f f e c t the sk i n . Q. A l l r i g h t . Now, w h a t is the b a s i s for y o u r opinion? A. T h e b a s i s is p r i m a r i l y e v i d e n c e t h a t has b e e n d e v e l o p e d in o b s e r v a t i o n s of h u m a n s w h o h a v e p r e s u m a b l y be e n e x p o s e d to TCDD at v a r i o u s l e v e l s in the development of chloracne. Also research that has been done with experimental animals both attemptin to find an a p p r o p r i a t e model, an e x p e r i m e n t a l m o d e l for c hloracne, but also testing of some m o d e l s and using some m o d e l s to e v a l u a t e the a c n e g e n i c p o t e n t i a l of TCDD. Q. All r i g h t , d o c t o r , b a s e d u p o n y o u r k n o w l e d g e as a toxicologist and your knowledge of the literature, do you hav e an o p i n i o n as to w h e n we k n e w or w h e n it was known that TCDD was capable of inducing DOST DIRECT 21077 chemicals. The problem that they had was that they d i d n ' t r e c o g n i z e the right area of the ear to use and the model fell into considerable disfavor and m e a n w h i l e t h e r e were a t t e m p t s to use rats and o t h e r t y p i c a l e x p e r i m e n t a l s p e c i e s . A m o n k e y is s u b j e c t to a c o n d i t i o n r a t h e r like c h l o r a c n e b u t it isn't e n t i r e l y i d e n t i c a l , a n d .the n u d e m o u s e -- t h e r e is a s t r a i n of m i c e that has a g e n e t i c d e f e c t in w h i c h it does not have hair -- and the c h a r a c t e r i s t i c of the s k i n of the n u d e m o u s e a p p a r e n t l y a l l o w s it to r e s p o n d in a f a s h i o n s o m e w h a t s i m i l a r but not the same as the h u m a n akin to chloracne. The r a b b i t is the best. The others are really not overly satisfactory. They're useful for some things but are not excellent. Q. As a t o x i c o l o g i s t , w h a t is the s i g n i f i c a n c e , if any, of t h e s e d i f f e r e n t r e s u l t s in t h e an-imal studies? A. W e l l , c e r t a i n l y it w o u l d i n d i c a t e t h a t the h u m a n s k i n is s o m e w h a t u n i q u e . A t o x i c o l o g i s t is a little disappointed when there isn't a proper model, of course, and I think that that's the part that concerns me most. Q. All r i g h t , sir. Dr. Dost, I w a n t to t u r n n o w DOST - DIRECT 21078 to the immune system, if we may. Can you tell the 1 2 jury# just briefly, generally# what the Immune 3 system involves? A A Well# the immune system is collectively all of 5 the mechanisms that are employed by an organism to 5 fight off infection# to control any:foreign protein 7 that nay come into the organism* That sometimes 8 creates more problems than it solves* If anyone has 9 ever had a very severe reaction to a bee sting, the 10 reaction itself probably is going to cause far more 11 damage than the bee sting# if you happen to be 12 particularly sensitive to bee venom# because of that 13 immune response to the bee..venom* 14 The other important component that the 15 imm-une system protects against are cells of one's 16 own body that have become deranged# either because . 17 they've been infected by the virus or because they 18 have become# they have reached the initial stages of 19 development of tumors* Tumor cells early on caus.e 20 an immune response. 21 Q. All ri g h t , sir. D o c t o r , w h a t is y o u r o p i n i o n 22 as to wh e t h e r diox in can adve rs el y affect the immune 23 syst em? 24 A. It a p p e a r s that it can. 25 Q* All right, sir. W o u l d you e x p l a i n that to us i a a V t S i t * J- :S^ \ T ; ' //{*..,, v:. A * I t a a personal .judgmentt'that* s tempered by a f great deal of experience and a great deal of conversation with other scientists, yes* Q. - And throughout the course of this tine period# . from-"1970 until; the presen tVy.when-- you-4-ve .becpme-.jaore-. r., * -- . - and more and more involved-in .the dioxin issue# in addition to doing your governmental research and work for EPA and the state governments put west# you also have agreed to testify for chemical companies in the Agent-Orange litigation; isn't that true? A. Correct. Q. And you came down on the side of industry in that particular case, didn't you? A. I came down on the side of the available information. Q. Well, Doctor, you were hired and paid by industry in that case to testify against the veterans, isn't that true? DOST CROSS 21206 -':' HR. LOVE* A. . I think n o t . , , Your Honor, I object. "C;"r -* : r.'.Vc- : **-.- ; ` * .* * ; -- THE COURTx Just, a ,moment . . :; ; V . * MR. LOVE t . I .obiect to the .sanner.In !V- .-* i . " . * ,,w--5---.--: V. , - - --V:v''V-"V : 'A'- : ' >, , r V \, . , .-'.i . "J J ;* ,..* w h i c h :counsel was asking that.^question. - We .can. cone?*v: "'' -i-T * ' T- yv to .the bench to discuss it if";you *'like .V,;; V^.'> THE COURT If there's sore to it than what I hear in the question t h a t .was asked and the. objection that was made, then I'll have you cone to the bench. Doesn't seem to ae that it's a very . complex matter. . Is there something that you -haven't, ... related .that, you feel we ^ought- fcordiscus s a t the-- bench? ... MR. LOVEs v1 -i-.* It's along the .lines that, I had mentioned, Your Honor. That's all. y THE COURTS At this moment? MR. LOVEs T h a t 's correct. THE COURTS If that be the. c a s e , the witness may ans wer that question A. Would you repeat the question? Q. . You decided to testify on behalf of industry in that case against the plaintiffs in that case who were, in fact, veterans of the Vietnam war? THE COURT < The question is whether or not he had been hired to do so DOST CROSS 21207 MR. CALWELLi Yes. THE COURT:- That ia.^the question* Doctor* Were you hired to. do so? '* THE WITNESS* - I was..'retained by counsel for the industry,;; yes * J q . V :^ n d ,aside from testifying in that case by way v of deposition, you also testified in Australia, did you not? ; ; ^ r\ - A. That's correct. Q. Before a Royal Commission that was investigating what effects, if any. Agent Orange had had on Australian veterans r isnJ-t-- that- right? --- A. That's correct* Q. And you took the same position there that you took in the Agent Orange casej isn't that true?: A. I have no control over the position that I take* I can only go by the evidence. Q. But you selected the evidence, did you not, that you decided to assign weight to? That's true, is n 't it? A. No* sir. No one has been able to challenge my selection of the evidence. Q. But* Doctor, the fact is you did select the evidence that you chose to. rely on 7 isn't that right? 25 A. The evidence that I selected was every bit of POST -- CROSS 21208 evidence that I could find. ` : . * - . .. '* q . .. But you don *t .rely on all the.evidence * do you? you haven't in this courtroom*.. ,, *... '`I- ' *'*" **"' V - - V - ' ' - . ;* * ' * - *: . . -- V. A*\ . I.-have to ..rely .on ..every^jalt of evidence that^.1. . can find in developing ay opinion* If I were' to*. . rely* in this courtroom* on.reyery bit o f evidence," I' would have had to come here by train instead of by plane because I couldn't bring it with me. Q. Doctor, what I'm saying to you is that in selecting the evidence t h a t .forms the .basis for your opinions* you select certain studies and certain scientists as having more- credibility -than-other---- scientists or studies; isn't that true? A. I really don't think so.'. I present what I. find* I may speak to the credibility when I present it but I have an obligation to use all of the evidence and proceed as far as the evidence permits me to proceed. Q. And you simply haven't been convinced yet# personally# as a scientist# you haven't been convinced yet of certain things about dioxin and its toxicity; isn't that true? A. I w o u l d p r e s u m e t h a t ' s true. i I Q. You have found that it is a most toxic substance# haven't you? A. Yes. DOST -- CROSS 21209 q . And you have found that it is probably the most toxic synthetic substance; isn't that right? A. That's probably true, yes,;. q Of all the things that nan, through the wonders V .. y " .*C>.:v-: if.V-V'V/ ' : ' . of science, have cone up with, -this may be the most toxic thing you've ever encountered; isn't that right? . 7 A- It could very well be. 9 Q. And you have found that it affects the skin; 0 isn't that true? X A. Yes. :- 2 Q. And you have concluded.-.thaflt affects t h e --- 3 immune system; isn't that true?.. *4 A. Correct * 5 Q. And you have found that it affects the liver, 6 that's true, isn't it? 7 A. y e s . 8 Q. That it has some cardiovascular effect; that's 9 true; isn't it? 0 A . Yes 1 Q. That it affects the gastrointestinal system, 2 that's true, isn't it? 3 A . Yes. 4 Q. And it affects the nervous system, you found 5 that to be true, haven't you? DOST - CROSS 21210 A. Yes. q . -And it affects the reproductive systen and the endocrine; y o u 'found that'to be true, haven't you? A . . . -;>;*** Q, And you found that to b o n u t a g e n i c , you-'found t h a t :to be true?/.,;.' * '..To a U n i t e d extent V.;*'*- v. Q. And you also found it to be carcinogenic, haven *t you? A That's correct Q. But you just, as a scientist, are not yet convinced as to how far this -goesT -are- you? ... - A Well, we've talked.about the toxicity Q* Well, I want you to answer ay question first. A. How far it goes, what do you mean by.that? DOST - CROSS 21211 q . Well# you*re just not convinced about certain things. You're not convinced about how carcinogenic it is# are you? A # The evidence is reasonably clear how : carcinogenic it is# what dosage is required to produce carcinogenicity. q . You're not convinced as to how carcinogenic it S 8 is in humans# are you? 9 A. No.. o q . And you're not convinced exactly as to how it * 1 may poison a human# are you? 2 A. Its mechanism, I presume--y o u 1 r e speaking -of? | 3 Q. Y e s 1 4 A. No# I don't know. I s Q. You're just not convinced about that.yet, are r 6 you? 0.7 A. No o n e e l s e is. t 8 Q* Well# you've read studies where people have El 9 hypothesized about how it poisonshumans, haven't po you? 2 1 A. I've read studies where people have 2 2 h y p o t h e s i z e d h o w it a f f e c t s b i o l o g i c a l s y s t e m s . 23 i Q. Y o u ' v e r e a d those, h a v e n ' t y o u ? 24 A . Y e s . 25 Q. A n d y o u just d o n ' t a c c e p t s o m e of t h o s e , is DOST - CROSS 2121-2 that right? A. Most of the people who are investigating these questions are unable to convince themselves Q* Doctor* X want y o u .to. answer my question You . (1 `^ . / ' >' r ` , l-* >;4 t ; have seen explanations of the .toxicity and the ' mechanism of dioxin th a t .you simply just don't accept, isn't that true? A. Yes q And you simply don't accept -- you haven't seen a study, yet, that convinces you that dioxin may, in fact, cause long-term irreversible effects on the peripheral nervous system, for-example, you just -- haven't been convinced of.that yet, isn't that true? A That's true. Q. - You know, and you are' convinced that it does have the ability to exert a toxic effect on the peripheral nervous system in humans, isn't that true? A. Apparently. Q. But you're just not convinced as to how bad it is or as to how long it lasts, isn't that right? A. How bad it is, I presume you mean by dosage it requires to do that. Q. How much injury it causes, you're just not that convinced about it -- A. At a given dose. dost Q. CROSS 21213 are you? . . . THE COURT: Just & nosent. What did you state, doctorr you said something about the given dose? X *b not surt : - -V.--. ;; `THE W I T N E S S : .:.Yes# sir ,; I did- : * THE COURT*" X '* not7;sure that was. heard; A- The destruction depends:on the dosage. q - . But the fact remains you simply aren't convinced yet as a scientist as to how much injury may result, dependent on whatever dose was received, and as to whether or not it's going to be permanent or not,, i s n 't "tha t,right?- -- .r-r-- ~ A. .That's correct*,....- . Q. You're'convinced and there's no doubt in your mind that it causes some injury, that's true, i-sn't it? A. Yes, that's very true. Q. You're convinced and there's no doubt in your mind 'that dioxin does, in fact, cause a skin disease isn't that true? A. With appropriate exposure, yes. Q. And you're convinced and there's no doubt in your mind that dioxin does, in fac-t, adversely affect the immune system, that's true, isn't it? A. With a sufficient exposure, yes, sir dost CROSS 21214 Q R i g h t i t 8 j u s t t h a t y o u -* * y o u ' r e n o t w i l l i n g , 3u s t y e t ^ t o . s a y - h o w ^ o n g t h o s e t h i n g s a a y l aa s t ., *t h a t ' s t r u e , rj. B n t i t v ? j* *_ >' A* n?t<* vid &?kafetell .se . ; Y r. . *rf;r:^ v '`rY ; Q* ` *>*..And ,y ,;reiixpt.;'Convnced as -^yet as .;..\.;yV'>\y V' v V.. to h o w s e r i o u s "t le s e i nj u ^ a . c t ; T;b e / i s `A thaat' t"ru1e,*'?**"'*:* ***'*;Y*;-:TY*`it*'`?-'KT**1;*' Y+ 'zkf'&JV^ktlU*rv*^^;'-Y*rt***,,'r, .* . A ' ' That.'s correct* v V Y \\ *.- q . Now, all of those or that attitude that you have, your scientific attitude toward dioxin, is something that you've arrived ;at simply from your r e a d i*n-g , , i s n ''"ti'/t h a t r'i g-h*t** '-*"f'-'~ r:1-- .- A* T h a t ' s c o r r e c t * .- ^.-vr^>r.:-v-v^ /.- Q. -This is not somet h i n g :that you have determined on your own in terms of sweating through an original piece of research# is it? A* Hot on dioxin. Q. It's just something -- it's kind of editorial that you've -- it's an editorial position of the things you've read# isn't that right? A. No# that is not correct. An editorial has an entirely different meaning than the development of a defensible scientific opinion. Q. And is that what you've in fact done, doctor# you've tried to develop a defensible scientific DOST - CROSS 21215 opinion to com to Court with? . . A. Yes#, 'sir. -1 q . How long, Doctor# would you have to have peripheral neuropathy for it to. be a condition .that.. you wpuld .consider''permanent?;?*:?.: v '*> ; '! t , *. A. not entirely sure how ^ong. " I would have - to rely.on the advice of neurophysicians who specialize in neurology to sake that kind of a ju d g a e n t Q. . So really#'y o u 1re not in a position to tell the jury# really -- to really give then an opinion as to how long it takes, for a n y Ofrthese conditions-that - you're convinced dioxin causes, has to persist before it's permanent, are you? A. Ho. Q* How, Doctor, I want to shift the focus here just for a minute and we'll come back to this a little later. I want to.ask you about chlorine free radicals. There's a difference between a free chlorine and a chlorine-free radical, isn't there? A. Y e s . Q In fact, i"this is 2,3,7,8 -TCDD, for that to be a chl.orine-free radical, you'd have to get rid of all these chlorines, is that right? r E* t7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 21 22 23 24 25 DOST - CROSS A. NO, sir. . 21216 * -^ 5-?n y " tof 1.;e t ..ihit: would b e ? . .. . ._ . A * > ? i ^ at wou.f*:3u?t be dibenxodioxia. : , r-` i * *"*;/!* ` "*V..j1';.v*>'V/ Q. ;v:X;;Wl th no < ...... "''''r \ |What u l O e r a n :Sxk*plaf0: 'chlorine-free radical? A. A free radical is an entity that exists by itself in a highly unstable state. A chlorine-free radical would be chlorine, itself, separated from the rest of the sol ecule `.r^'V-v. Q. . Th at wo u1d b e . a ch 1or inH=ffree~;rad ical ?:- " ; A* Chlorine-free does not 'mean -- we're talking about a free radical -- / i Q. Yes, sir. .- A. -- that is comprised of chlorine. Q. Right. Let's say one of these -- A . Not talking about substance that is free of chlorine. Q. Let's say if this chlorine, here, came off, that would be a free chlorine? A. It would probably be negative charged and it would probably be lacking, in electrons or carrying an extra electron. Q. But it would be a negatively charged free 6 7 e 9 ,0 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 21 M22 23 24 25 dost CROSS chlorine ion, is that right? 21217 A. -Nofyit wouldn \.t.be an ion..-,'- Q* . .What .would it be? .. ; ' ' .*'*-"*'** * -" :"n ,**-'*> -,,."h "v-.**.*- "' S' `, 150 ..a-free .radical**An ion is a __ia " -,<. . `i** ;' r . / ,* ~ .weVhad so<3iun-chloride or hydrogen' chloride In that solution, _itxWould ioniie ;;a n d `it would*-exist as a chloride ion on the one hand and the hydrogen ion on the other that could be combined, let's say,.if you put sodium in there, we would end up perhaps with sodium ions and chlorine ions* This -- a chlorine-free radical has a . very powerful> or any free radical has a powerful - capability for combining with almost any kind of a * *; * * >, . - - * molecule, because lt*s carrying a great deal .of energy and it can literally jam its way^ into a . reaction* Q* How, and if one of these chlorine free radicals, as you have defined it, and I want to,make sure I understand your definition of it, now you tell me if I'm wrong, I believe your testimony was that sometimes in the body, this dioxin -- I'm talking about an animal, this dioxin molecule will begin to be metabolized and you'll lose a chlorine off one corner, is that right? A. That's correct* J