Document jR5Emw6o9Lnvx4ywQRMJowDR

I / IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF WEST VIRGINIA CHARLESTON, WEST VIRGINIA JAMES M. ADKINS, A d m i n i s t r a t o r o f th e Es ta ta of R slph E. A dkins, D eceased, a t a l, P la in tiffs, vs. MONSANTO COMPANY, a D e la w a re C orporation, D efendant. ) > > > > ) ) No. ) ) >' ) ) 81-2098 D eposition o f GEORGE J . LEVINSKAS tak en on b e h a lf o f th e P la in tiffs. S' 4 r R e p o r t e r : M. J o y S p r i n g e r J am es M ay R epo rtin g S er vic e CERTIFIED SHORTHAND REPORTERS R.R. 2 - BOX 65 ED W AHD SVILLE. IL L IN O IS 62025 \ IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF WEST VIRGINIA CHARLESTON, WEST VIRGINIA JAMES M. ADKINS, A d m in is tr a to r o f the E sta te o f Ralph E. A d k in s, Deceased, e t a l, P la in tiffs, vs. MONSANTO COMPANY, a D elaw are C orporation, D efen d an t. ) ) ) ) ) ) ) ) ) ) ) ) No. 81-2098 APPEARANCES: M essrs. C a lw e ll, McCormick & Peyton, by W, S tu a r t C a lw e ll, J r . , E sq . M essrs. B ow les, McDavid, G raff & Love, by C h a rles M. Love I I I , E sq . For P la in t if f s , For D efendant. IT IS STIPULATED AND AGREED by and b etw een co u n sel fo r the p la in t if f s and co u n sel fo r the d efen dan t t h a t th e d e p o s it io n o f GEORGE J , LEVINSKAS may be taken pursuant to Rule 2 6 (a ) o f the F ed era l R ules o f C i v i l P r o c e d u r e , on J u ly 14, 1 9 8 3 , a t th e R a d isso n H o te l, Room 2 1 5 , 9 th S t r e e t and C o n v en tio n P la z a , S t . L o u is , M is s o u r i, b e fo r e M, JOY SPRINGER, a N o ta r y Pub l i c w ith in and fo r the County o f M adison, S ta te o f JA M E S MAY R E P O R T IN G S ER V IC E 1 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 I l l i n o i s ; th a t the issu a n ce o f n o tic e and dedimus is w a iv ed , and th a t t h i s d e p o s it io n may be taken w ith th same fo r c e and e f f e c t a s i f a l l F e d e r a l r u le s and s t a tu to r y req uirem en ts had been com p lied w ith . IT IS FURTHER STIPULATED AND AGREED t h a t any and a l l o b je c tio n s to a l l or any p a rt o f t h is d e p o s itio n , ex cep t o b je c tio n s as to form o f the ques tio n s asked or answers g iv e n , are hereby reserv ed and may be r a is e d on th e, t r i a l o f t h i s c a u s e ; and t h a t th e sign atu re of the deponent is n ot w aived. 'k'k-k'k'k'k-k'k'k'k'k GEORGE J , LEVINSKAS p rod u ced , sworn and exam ined on b e h a lf o f th e p l a i n t i f f s deposes and says as fo llo w s: EXAMINATION BY MR. CALWELL: (Whereupon th e r e p o r te r marked P la in t i f f s ' D e p o sitio n E x h ib it #337 (Monsanto #8324400 and #8324401) c o n s is t in g o f 2 pages, for the purposes o f id e n t if ic a t io n .) JA M E S MAY R E PO R TIN G S ER V IC E l 1 \ 1 1 v2 *3 4 5 6 7 8 9 ib n 12 13 1 14 15 16 17 18 19 V 20 21 22 23 24 25 * Q (By Mr. C a lw e ll) D o c to r , w ould you s t a t e y o u r f u l l name f o r th e r e c o r d , p l e a s e . A It* s George J. L evin sk as. Q You have a Ph. D ., i s t h a t r ig h t ? A Y e s, Ph. D. Q You s t i l l l i v e a t 517 F a ir v ie w C ir c le ? A Fairways C ir c le . Q How do you pronounce i t , C reve -- A I t ' s Creve Coeur. i Q And w hat i s your a g e , s i r ? A I have to s t o p and t h in k . 5 9 . My birthday ju s t happened Last week. Q And you g r a d u a te d from W esleyan U n iv e r sity in M iddletown, C on necticu t? A Tha t* s c o r r e c t . Q That was your undergraduate work? A R ight. Q Was t h a t in C h em istry? A Major in C h em istry, minor in M athem atics. Q Then you w ent in th e C oast Guard? A N o. I was in th e Army in betw een tim e a t W esleyan. I s ta r te d a t W esleyan and a t the o u tb re a k o f World -Jar I I I l e f t to go in th e s e r v i c e , r e tu r n e d and g o t my D e g r e e . Q And you g o t a Ph. D. a t th e U n iv e r s i t y J A M E S MAY R E P O R T I N G S E R V I C E 3 * i V 1 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 'i o f R ochester in 1949? A '53. Q And t h a t was in C h em istr y , r ig h t ? A No. That was in Pharm acology w ith a minor in B io ch em istry . Q That Degree was co n fer re d on you in 1953? A 1953. Q What d id you do f o llo w in g b e in g awarded th e ph. D.? A I jo in ed the fa c u lty a t the G rivas School o f P u b lic H ealth in the Department o f Occupatio n a l H ealth a t the U n iv e r sity of P ittsb u rg h . Q And w hat d id you do f o r th e U n iv e r s i t y of Pittsburgh? A Com bination o f teach in g and rese a rc h . Q Did you tea c h T oxicology? A Yes, 1 taught a course in T oxicology. .Q I n d u s t r i a l T o x ic o lo g y ? A The t i t l e was I n d u s t r ia l T o x ic o lo g y ,y e s . Q What e l s e d id you te a c h th ere? A I gave sem inars and I lectu red in a v a r ie t y o f o th e r c l a s s e s or c o u r se s fo r o th er members o f the f a c u lt y , but I had o n ly the one cou rse w hich was my p a r t i c u la r c o u r s e . 4 J A M E S MAY R E P O R T I N G S E R V I C E L Q And t h a t b e in g I n d u s t r i a l T o x ic o lo g y ? - . A In d u stria l T oxicology. Q Now, what is I n d u s t r ia l T o x ico lo g y ? A I'm n ot su re th e r e 's a form al d e f in it io n fo r i t , but I would say th a t i t ' s a stu dy o f the e f f e c t s o f ch em ica ls w hich were u sed , handled and en cou n tered in in d u stry. Q Now, t h a t b ea rs some s tr o n g r e l a t i o n s h ip t o your Ph. D. in Pharm acology? A I t ' s e s s e n t i a l l y a f a c e t o f Pharma c o lo g y , i f you want to c a l l i t such. Q What i s Pharm acology? A W ell, Pharmacology in ins b road est s e n s e w ould be th e s c i e n c e o f d r u g s. Then i t would have s e v e r a l subdivisions ranging from the knowledge o f p la n ts from which drugs or m ed icin al drugs cou ld be e x tr a c te d on the compound, p r e sc r ib in g o f tr e a tm e n ts, to the treatm ent of drugs, m edical con d ition s as w e ll as stu d yin g the a ctio n s o f drugs, in clu d in g th e ir ad verse or to x ic reaction s. Q Now, sounds lik e a p r e t t y broad d iscip lin e. A Yes. Q On what d id you do your d i s s e r t a t i o n ? Did you s i n g l e o u t some s p e c i f i c a r e a t h a t you w ere JA M E S MAY R E PO R TIN G SER V IC E 1 p a r tic u la r ly in te r e s te d in? 2 A A ctu a lly , I studied the c h a ra cteris 3 t ic s o f the bone m ineral. 4 Q Now, how lo n g d id you te a c h a t th e 5 U n iv ersity o f Pittsburgh? 6 A Five years, u n til 1958. 7 Q And then what d id you do? 8 A Then I jo in e d the AmericanCyancmide 9 Company a t t h e i r S t a n f o r d , C o n n e c t ic u t , la b o r a t o r y . 10 Q They had L e d d er le L a b o r a to r ie s t h e r e , n did they not? 12 A No. L e d d e r le was a d i v i s i o n o f 13 A m erican Cyanam ide, b u t I was in the C orp orate M e d ic a l 14 D ep a rtm en t, w h ich i s s e p a r a t e from the L e d d e r le D i v i s i o n . 15 Q Now, b e in g in th e C o rp o ra te M e d ic a l 16 D ep a rtm en t, was th a t r e l a t e d to t h i s a r e a you had been 17 t e a c h in g in I n d u s t r i a l T o x ic o lo g y ? 18 A Y es. They com bined two l a b o r a t o r i e s , 19 one from T o x ic o lo g y , one from I n d u s t r i a l H y g ie n e , t o 20 form a s o - c a lle d E nvironm ental H ealth L ab oratory, and 21 I j o in e d them to head up t h a t la b o r a t o r y . 22 Q So d id you have some e x p e r ie n c e or 23 t r a i n i n g in I n d u s t r i a l H ygiene? 24 A I had some w h ile I was in the g r a d u a te 25 s c h o o l and I have been a member o f th e I n d u s t r i a l H ygiene . JA M E S MAY R E P O R TIN G SER VIC E t t 1 *1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 V 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 1; A ssociation , I guess, since about '54, '55. Q - Now, how does I n d u s t r i a l H ygien e a s a d is c ip lin e , and I assume th a t i t i s , r e la te to I n d u s tr ia l T oxicology? Are th ey p r e tty c lo s e , th e y go h an d -in -gloye? A They are q u ite c lo s e , and from t h ir t y years ago I dare say th a t most people probably wore both b a ts , th a t they were not as sep a ra te as th ey are today. Q Could you b r i e f l y t e l l what the d is c ip lin e o f In d u str ia l H ygiene in v o lv es as you d id when you e x p la in e d - - A W ell, p rim arily In d u str ia l H ygiene is concerned w ith the - - I g u e ss, the d e f in it io n would be m onitorin g o f s t r e s s e s as they occur in th e w o rk p la ce. Q Now, when you s a y s t r e s s e s a s th e y occur in the w orkplace, that* ' ? term of a r t , o b v io u sly . W hat's i t mean to you? A W e ll, s t r e s s e * t o me c o v e r s a v a r i e t y o f s t r e s s e s . I t can range from n o is e tr. r a d ia t io n to h e a t . W hatever p h y s i o l o g i c a l s t r e s s e s may e x i s t in th e w ork p lace. Q So i f I u n d e rsta n d what y o u 1r e s a y i n g , then, In d u s tr ia l Hygiene is the stu d y o f the c o n ta c t betw een human a c t i o n and w h a tev e r m igh t be in th e w o r k p la c e J A M E S MAY R E P O R T I N G S E R V I C E k 7 1 th a t would cause s tr e s s ? 2 A His work en viron m en t, y e s, 3 Q And the pu rp ose f o r s tu d y in g th a t 4 is to do what? 5 A p r o te c t the h e a lth and w elfa re of the em ployees. 7 Q So out o f exam ining th ese p o in ts o f 8 s tr e s s you, I g u e ss, d evelop p r in c ip le s or r u le s -- 9 A One w ould hope t o c o n t r o l them w ith in , 10 t o l e r a b l e l i m i t s . 11 Q I ' d l i k e t o e x p lo r e t h a t j u s t a l i t t l e 12 b i t nore. Once you i d e n t i f y a s t r e s s p o in t , a r e you 13 r e s p o n s ib le a s th e I n d u s t r i a l H y g ie n is t Jor d e s ig n in g 14 d i f f e r e n t ways o f , l i t ' s s a y , I f i t Ts a t o x i c s u b s t a n c e , 15 d i f f e r e n t ways o f h a n d lin g the - a t e r i a l s or d i f f e r e n t 16 ways o f p r o c e s s in g th e m a t e r i a l s ; or I f I t ' s c o n n e c te d 17 w ith a p r o d u c tio n o f some ?ub-i ta .n ce, fo r e x a m p le, w ould 18 the I n d u s t r i a l H y g ie n is t be re pop.sib" s f o r maybe a l 19 t e r i n g th e means o f p r o d u c tio n to in c r a a .;* th e s a f e t y 20 o f th e worker? Is th a t the kind o f th in g you do as an 21 I n d u s t r i a l H y g ie n is t? 22 MR. LOVE; o t u a r t , I w ould o b j e c t t o 23 th e form o f your q u e s t io n on the b a s is you 24 h a v e n ' t e s t a b l i s h e d he i s an I n d u s t r i a l 25 H y g ie n i s t . Go ahead and a n s w e r . JA M E S MAY R E P O R T IN G SER V IC E A I 'm not the In d u str ia l H ygien ist. .-(J (By Mr. C a lw e ll) I w a sn ' t a s k in g you to t e s t i f y a s one, but you b elon g to the I n d u str ia l Hygiene A s s o c ia tio n fo r t h ir t y years and i t ! s very c l o s e l y r e l a t e d , and I'm s im p ly a s k in g you i f you knew i f th a t Is a fu n c tio n that: th e I n d u s tr ia l H y g ie n ist would perform . A H aving s a i d I have b een a member o f the s o c ie ty for th ir ty years and I tr ie d to in d ic a te i there Is an o v erla p , i f you w i l l , between T o x ico lo g y and I n d u s t r i a l H y g ie n e , and s o on t h a t b a s is and t h i r t y years ago there were no sep a ra ta p r o fe s sio n a l s o c ie t ie s for t o x ic o lo g is t s , so most o f us belonged to th a t s o c ie ty . I would have to c o n je c tu r e th a t probably t h a t's th e fu n ctio n o f the I n d u s tr ia l H y g ie n ist, but I'm n ot an In d u str ia l H y g ien ist and I c a n 't speak w ith c o n v ic tio n on th a t p o i n t . Q I understand th a t. But th a t would g e n e r a lly be a r o le th a t you would ex p ect an I n d u s tr ia l H y g ien ist to p lay a s ig n if ic a n t p art in? A Oh, th e r e w ou ld be a v a r i e t y o f p e o p le in v o lv ed in s a f e t y who w ould p a r t ic ip a t e in th a t de c is io n , and I can assume th e I n d u s tr ia l H y g ie n ist would have a ro le in i t . Q Now, in r e l a t i o n to the I n d u s t r ia l JA M E S MAY R E P O R T IN G S ER V IC E ( 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 2 21 22 23 24 25 ' H ygien ist, again , referrin g to th at l i t t l e hyp oth etical s i t u a t i o n t h a t I d e s c r ib e d , who would you e x p e c t to be playing a role? A I t w ould depend on the s tr u c tu r e o f the o r g a n iz a tio n , but I t would be a v a r ie ty o f people sta r tin g w ith the m anagerial p eop le, the engineering p eop le, process p eop le, ch em ists, m edical personnel. I would th in k th ere would be a v a r ie ty o f people in volved in th at d e c isio n . Q Now, you worked fo r American Cyanamide in th e C orporate M ed ica l D epartm ent. Now, what s p e c i f i c a l l y d id you do fo r them? A We had a la b o r a t o r y th a t was c o n cerned w ith the to x ic o lo g y o f a l l products of the company e x c e p t the drugs w hich were handled by the Ledderle D iv isio n . Q Was t h a t company in v o lv e d in a n y ch lo rin a ted phenols? A I do n ot r e c a ll th a t they were in v o lv e d in t h e m an u factu re o f them . They may have used them. Q Did you have o cca sio n to -- Is t e s t in g th e r ig h t word fo r what you would do? A (Nods head a f f ir m a t iv e ly .) Q When you w ere w o rk in g f o r Am erican J A M E S MAY R E P O R T I N G S E R V I C E 1 1 Cyanamide, d id you have o cca sio n to t e s t c h lo r in a te d phenols fo r to x ic ity ? A No, I did n o t. / Q When you w ere d o in g your c o u r se w ork, d id you have any stu d ie s th a t in v o lv ed c h lo r in a te d phenols o f any kind? A I don*t r e c a ll th a t I did any work on t h o s e . Q I would assume th a t you 're a t le a s t now f a m i li a r w ith a group o f s u b s ta n c e s th a t have been gen era lly id e n tifie d as dioxins? A I 1ve h eard o f them. Q D uring your c o u r se work when you w ere w ork in g on your Ph. D. or d u rin g your c o u r se work d id you have o c ca sio n to become acq u ain ted w ith any o f the d i o x i n s , know o f t h e i r e x is t e n c e ? A No, and I d o n 't b e lie v e anybody e ls e knew o f t h e ir e x is t e n c e a t th a t tim e. Q And th a t w ould have been in th e l a t e 'AO's and e a r ly ' 5 0 's , r ig h t? A Yes. Q Did you stu d y about ch loracn e during your course work? A Y es. Chforacne i s a c o n d itio n t h a t ' s f a ir ly w e ll describ ed in the m edical lite r a tu r e . JA M E S MAY R E PO R TIN G SER VIC E 1 1 Q Even in th e la t e 1900*s th e re was some - - 2 A I th in k the term was probab ly c o in e d 3 about th at tim e, 4 Q And d u r in g your c o u r se work d id 5 you have o c c a s io n to know o f some o f th e c a u s e s o f ch lo ra cn e, su b stan ces th a t might cause it? 7 A The c l a s s i c one w ou ld be th e c h l o r i 8 nated nap hth alen es which is c it e d in v i r t u a ll y a l l 9 textb ooks in which i t ' s refer r ed to . 10 \> Do you now know i f a c h l o r i n a t e d 11 n a p h th a le n e has th e p o t e n t i a l fo r c r e a t i n g a d i o x i n 12 in some s te p o f i t s use ? 13 A I d o n 't know. N ot knowing how th e y 14 m an u factu re r h lc r in a t e d n a p h th a le n e s , I d o n 't know i f 15 t h a t Ls a . h e m ica l oss i b i l i t y . I dor.' t r e c a l l o f l r e a d in g abou c d io x in s in c h l o r i n a t e d n a p h th a le n e s . 17 Does the naroe c h lo r in a t e d n a p h th a le n e 18 i n d ic a t e t o you -- 1 g u e s s , y o u 'r e a t o x i c o l o g i s t , r ig h t ? 19 A Y e s . 20 Q - as a to x ic o lo g ist that there are 21 s u f f i c i e n t s t r u c t u r e s t h e r e , m o le c u la r s t r u c t u r e s t h a t 22 m igh t s e t up a s i t u a t i o n w here you c o u ld g e t a d i o x i n 23 o f some kin d under c ir cu m sta n c es? 24 A As c o n j e c t u r e , I d o n 't b e l i e v e t h a t a 25 n ap h th alen e would form a d io x in . C h em ically i t ' s a JAM ES MAY R E P O R T IN G SER V IC E i 1 \ 1 2 ' 3_ 4 5 6 7 8 '9 10 11 12 13 J 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 `i d o u b le r i n g , u n lik e th e d io x in t h a t Ts form ed from sin g le benzene rin g s. Q When d id you f i r s t become a c q u a in te d w ith these substances id e n tifie d as dioxins? A 1*01 not sure I co u ld put a p a r tic u la r tim e fram e on i t , bu t I w ould s a y p r o b a b ly somewhere in to the e a r ly , m id'70rs , perhaps. q O.K, How lo n g d id you s t a y w it h th e A m erican Cyanarnide Company? A U n til 1971. q And then you w en t t o work f o r M onsanto? A Yes. q And ware you Manager o f P ro d u ct Afsenr-merit vr.sn you f i r s t went th ere? A That the p o sitio n I h eld . I th ir.k th e f i r s t t i t l e th e y i v e me was Manager o f P roduct Developm ent and th ey d ecid ed th a t was a r a th e r n o n -d e s c r ip t term fo r ny p o s it io n , so th ey changed i t to Manager o f Environm ental A ssessm ent and T o x ic o lo g y . Q Where d id you go to work f o r M onsanto? Was t h a t in th e S t . L ou is a r ea ? A S t. Louis area. q Was th e r e a s p e c i f i c p la n t you w e n t to? A W ell, corporate headquarters. q And what i s your p r e s e n t p o s i t i o n w it h J A M E S MAY R E P O R T I N G S E R V I C E k 1 1 A 2 -3 4 5 6 7 '8 9 10 n 12 13 J 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 i th e company? ' *;w. . i: CvA I f ro th e D ir e c t o r o f E n v ir o n m e n ta l A ssessm ent and T oxicology. Q Have your d u t ie s changed or r e sp o n - s i b i l i t i e s changed much s i n c e 1971 w it h th e company? A Not s u b s ta n tia lly . There's been somewhat o f an enlargem ent and in t e n s if ic a t io n , but e s s e n tia lly unchanged. Q S o e s s e n t i a l l y y o u 'r e doin g tba same work in the same area t h a t you a lw a y s have f o r M onsanto? A T hat's c o r r e c t. Q I would im agine you probably have a l i t t l e more a d m in is tr a tiv e r e s p o n s i b i l i t y and th a t so r t of thin A That'" c o r r e c t. Q When you f i r s t w ent t o work f o r M onsanto, was th ere a s p e c i f ic p r o je c t th a t you w ent to work on, or what did you s t a r t d o in g f o r them? A The p rim ary em p h a sis was in th e a r e a o f what we c a l l en v iro n m en ta l a s s e s s m e n t. They w ere s t a r t i n g a program to r e v ie w w hat was known a s i t s products to determ ine what a d d itio n a l te s tin g -sh o u ld be done, and to g e t th a t program underway i s why I jo in e d the company. Q Was t h a t a new u n d e r ta k in g f o r th e J A M E S MAY R E P O R T I N G S E R V I C E % 1 \ A * J t. 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 c c ompany? A I d o n 't th in k i t was new in th e s e n s e o f de n o v o , but i t was a r e d ir e c t io n and renewed emp h a sis on i t . Q So th e re had been some program , by w hatever name, th a t had sou gh t to do e s s e n t i a l l y what you came to the company to do? A I b e lie v e most o f what I was doing was b e in g done b e fo r e I came th e r e . Q And you s im p ly , p e r h a p s, r e d ir e c t e d i t , a n d , p e r h a p s , im proved on i t . A R efocused and r e i n t e n s if i c a t i o n . Q O.K. Arid what d id th a t in v o lv e ? " e r e char-- peci.fi*; su b sta n c e s you were lo o k in g a t a t tiiat time? A I t started o ff as a general idea, and w hat we s t a r t e d to do was to lo o k a t new p r o d u c ts , p ro p o sed new use^ fo r e x i f t i n g p ro d u cts or where we were in s tit u tin g , proposing to in s titu te changes in m a n u fa c tu r in g p r o c e d u r e s ,t h a t we w ould take a lo o k a t th o se o p e r a tio n s o f th o se products to review them and from our p e r sp e c tiv e see whether th ere was a d d itio n a l in form ation th a t ought to be developed in lig h t o f ' c o n c e r n s , q u e s tio n s or la c k o f knew led g e r e g a r d in g m aterials involved. J A M E S MAY R E P O R T I N G S E R V I C E 1 . ] Q O.K. And d id an y o f th o se p r o d u cts *. .A f in clu d e c h lo r in a te d phenols th a t Monsanto m ight have been u sin g or producing? A We-do have a m a te r ia l w hich i s a su b stitu te of chlorophenol used as a germ icide. I th in k we lo o k e d a t th a t o n e. T h a t's a b o u t th e o n ly o n e . Q D id i t have a name? A Santophen. Q Was t h a t a t th e Krummrich P la n t? A I t was Krummrich or Queeny. I r e a l l y c o u ld n 't t e l l you fo r su re . Q And what were you lo o k in g fo r ? A V e il, th is is a germ icide chat was r ' i s te r e d 1th the E n v ir one*?r. ta 1 7r c te c t io n A g e n c y , and we took s o r t o f a g e n e r a l lo o k a t i t to s e e i f th e r e was so m e th in g more we ih o u lc d o . P ro b a b ly my generp L r e c o ll e c t i o n would be was tir .e e i t was r e g is t e r e d w it h the EpA and met th e r e g i s t r a t i o n r e q u ir e m e n ts , we p r o b a b ly d i d n ' t do much w ith i t . Q And t h i s w ould have been in 1 9 7 0 , ' 7 2 , th a t tim e fram e, somewhere in th ere? A p r o b a b ly . Somewhere in th e e a r ly to mid f 7 0 ' s , Q in Santophen? Were you lo o k in g f o r a c o n ta m in a n t JA M E S MAY R E P O R T IN G SER V IC E I 1 t 1 A No. I t was j u s t to look a t the product 2 as i t w as' M in g so ld . 3 Q Did you look a t an y, l ik e , p en ta 4 chlorophenol or trich lo ro p h en o l, orthochlorophenol 5 during th a t period? 6 A We p r o b a b ly d id some a c u t e t o x i c i t y 7 t e s t i n g on one or two o f th e c h lo r o p h e n o ls . We d id do -- 8 T his would be g e t t in g in t o th e mid 1970*s p rob ab ly - - 9 some t e s t i n g o f e it h e r p e n ta c h lo r o p h en o l or p e n ta - 10 c h lo r o p h e n o l b y p r o d u c ts, w a s te p r o d u c ts , f o r c h lo r a c n e 11 in th e r a b b it e a r t e s t f o r th e c h ic k edema f a c t o r . 12 Q You w ere lo o k in g f o r a d i o x i n t h e n , 13 I s t h a t r ig h t ? 14 A I w a s n 't s p e c i f i c a l l y lo o k in g f o r a 15 m a t e r ia l. Ve were t e s t i n g to s e e i f th e y c a u se d th e 16 b i o l o g i c a l e f f e c t s . D io x in m igh t ca u se chem or d ib e n z o - 17 fu r a n s m igh t c a u se them. 18 Q A t l e a s t th o s e two s u b s ta n c e s w ere 19 on your m ind, s o to sp e a k , when th e s e m a tte r s w ere b e in g 20 lo o k ed a t and t e s t e d fo r a c u te t o x i c i t y ? 21 A I f I c o u ld r e c a l l my s t a t e o f m ind, 22 I d o n ! t t h in k I had in mind a p a r t i c u la r su b sk n ce t h a t 23 I was lo o k in g f o r . My c o n c er n from a b i o l o g i c a l t e s t 24 in g s t a n d p o in t was I f i t produ ces t h i s b i o l o g i c a l r e s 25 ponse in a n im a ls , w h atever produces i t , then th e r e a re J A M E S MAY R E P O R T I N G S E R V I C E i c e r ta in p reca u tio n s we*d have to take in a d v is in g p e o p le a b o u t h a n d lin g th e s e r e s i d u e s . What th e c a u s a tiv e agen t is in most cases is o f secondary im portance t o me. Q But you knew a t th a t time th a t ou t o f th a t, say, the pentachlorophenol or tric h lo ro p h e n o l, th a t i f ch lo ra cn e was produced, th e p o s s ib le c a u sa tiv e a g en t would be one o f the d io x in s or d ib en zofu ran s? A Having a g e n era l aw areness o f th a t, y e s , but not any sp e c ific d ioxin . Q But you w ere a t l e a s t aware o f th a t a t the tim e, rig h t? A R ight. Q Do you know i f an y d io x in s w ere id e n tifie d during th is p eriod o f tim e in th ose su b stan ces? A I don't r e c a ll that they w ere, but th en my group i s n o t in v o lv e d in c h e m ic a l a n a l y s i s o f m ateria I s . Q Were you w ork in g in c o n j u n c t io n w it h the group th a t was involved in the chem ical a n a ly s is a t the same tim e on the same s u b s ta n c e s fo r th e same g o a l? A We do a l l o f our work in c o n j u n c t io n w ith th e u n i t who has r e s p o n s i b i l i t y f o r th e p r o d u c t. X c a n 't sa y th a t I a c t u a lly knew what th e y were d o in g or was aware o f what they were d oin g in terms o f ch em ical JA M E S MAY R E P O R T IN G SER V IC E k a n a l y s i s . As a m a tter o f f a c t , i t p r o b a b ly -- We probably could d e tec t things in the b io lo g ic a l system a t le v e ls , low er than th e c h e m ists c o u ld d e t e c t them a t t h a t tim e . So I r e a l l y d o n 't know w h eth er th e y were attem p tin g to an alyze and unable to a n a ly ze. Q You w ere w o rk in g w it h a n im a l t e s t i n g , I suppose? A Yes, s ir . Q How do you d e t e c t th e s e s u b s ta n c e s through anim al te s ts ? Is i t through o b servation o f e f f e c t s on the an im als and then you deduce from t h a t what they were exposed to? A W e ll, we g e n e r a l l y know w hat we a r e g iv in g th e a n im a l, and th e a tte m p t i s made to i n t r o duce th e ch em ica l to the an im al in a manner an alogou s to th a t w hich a worker or custom er would en cou n ter the c h e m ic a l. Then we o b se r v e the e f f e c t on th e a n im a l. Now, we d o n 't know w h eth er th e m a t e r ia l we a d m in is t e r e d or some byp rod u ct or some m e ta b o lic end produ ct p ro duces some end e f f e c t . The f i r s t s ta g e i s m erely a b rin gin g to g eth er the a n iira l, chem ical and o b serv a tio n . The a tte m p t to d e c ip h e r w h at s p e c i f i c a l l y produced which ob serv a tio n is an oth er saga th a t takes a con sid era b ly longer tim e. Q So i f I understand i t , the f i r s t phase JA M E S MAY R E P O R T IN G S ER V IC E I 1 or th is a sp ect of your te s tin g in v o lv es inducing a 2 M onsanto-product or a known su b sta n c e in an an im al 3 and then record in g the r e s u lt s or e f f e c t s , i f any? 4 A T hat's co rr ec t, 5 Q From a t o x i c o l o g ic a l ' s ta n d p o in t and 6 r e la te d in d u s t r ia l h y g ie n e sta n d p o in t, i f a worker was 7 b e in g ex p o se d to t h i s p ro d u ct t h a t gave you some un 8 d esira b le r e su lts in your anim al te s tin g , is i t 9 im portant fo r you to ca rry i t one ste p fu rth er to fin d 10 ou t s p e c i f i c a l l y w hat th e t o x i c su b s ta n c e i s b e fo r e 11 you take some a c t i o n r e g a r d i n g ,s a y , w orker e x p o su re ? 12 A I d o n 't t h in k i t ' s n e c e s s a r y and 13 I dare s a y in m ost c a s e s t h a t ' s n o t d on e. I f you 14 know so m eth in g in t h a t p a c k a g e , i f you w i l l , t h a t 15 you a d m in is t e r e d t o t h a t a n im a l i s p r o d u cin g an a d 16 v e r s e e f f e c t , th e p rim ary c o n c e r n and sr .p h a sis s h o u ld 17 be on c o n t r o l i n g , l i m i t i n g or e l i m i n a t i n g ex p o su re s o 18 th a t th e e f f e c t i s n o t s e e n . To d e la y a c t i o n u n t i l 19 you foun d o u t w hat th e c a u s e was I th in k j u s t i s n o t 20 d o n e, t h a t ' s n o t th e p r a c t i c e . One can c o n t r o l a r i s k 21 w ith o u t know ing w h a t's in v o lv e d . 22 Q And i s t h a t in f a c t M o n sa n to 's p o lic y ? 23 A Y e s, t h a t ' s th e p r a c t i c e in th e 24 c h e m ic a l in d u s t r y , a s f a r a s I know i t . 25 Q Now, a s a t o x i c o l o g i s t and in th e JA M E S MAY R E P O R T IN G SER VIC E '; \ 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 n 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 i r e l a t e d i n d u s t r i a l h y g ie n e a r e a , how do you d e te r m in e t h a t w o rk e r in th e w o rk p la c e i s s u f f e r i n g some d e l e te r io u s ex p o su re th a t w ould re q u ire the M edical Departm ent, the to x ic o lo g is t and the in d u s tria l hyg i e n i s t t o t a k e a l o o k a t t h e s i t u a t i o n ? How d o y o u come to know t h a t s o r t o f th in g ? A I'm n o t sure th e re is a s p e c ific a n s w e r t h a t w o u ld a n sw e r a l l t h i n g s . In some c a s e s , p erh ap s, in m ost c a s e s , one would s t a r t looking a t a m a te ria l b e fo re th e re were c o m p la in ts. This is r e a l l y the ra tio n a le of doing the to x ic ity te s ts is to have fo re k n o w le d g e of w hat may o c c u r so as to a v o id d i f f i cu lty -- '} T h e r e i s a p r e v e n t a t i v e p h i l o s o p h y i n this -- A I t 's a su b h eaith concept alm ost in the sense of p re v e n tstiv e m edicine. I f th ere are w orker c o m p la in ts, th ese would m e rit in v e s tig a tio n , i f a p h y sician has a q u e stio n th a t he en co u n ters. There c o u ld be a v a r i e t y of re a s o n s . I t c o u ld be the a p p e a rance of in fo rm atio n in the lite r a tu r e or elsew here th a t a chem ical produced an e f f e c t and one would wonder w hether chem icals somewhat s im ila r or re a so n a b ly s im ila r m ight be producing a s im ila r e f f e c t . But th e re could be a v a rie ty of trig g e r points. J A M E S MAY R E P O R T I N G S E R V I C E 1 l* 1 Q In connection with the preventative 2 concept in toxicology and in d u s tr ia l hygiene, does 3 th a t require people, such as y o u rse lf, to sta y 4 ab re ast of the lite ra tu r e in order to try to see i f 5 th e r e a re going to be problems t h a t you might be able to prevent in the workplace? 7 T h i s i s one o f t h e t h i n g s we would 8 hope to try to do. 9 Q And d o e s M o n s a n t o m a i n t a i n some 10 k i n d o f a l i b r a r y t h a t you h a v e a c c e s s t c f o r t h i s 11 k i n d o f r e s e a r c h ? 12 A Ve have a v a r i e t y o f l a b o r a t o r i e s , 13 ke have one i n t h e C o r p o r a t e M e d i c a l D e p a r t m e n t a n d 14 we a l s o h a v ' c l o s e by our C e n t r a l R e s e a r c h L a b o r a t o r i e s . 15 A* 1 s a i d l i b r a r y . l A I t s h o u l d V L i b r a r i e ?. One i s 17 a c t u a l l y i n t h e D e p a r t r t e r . t o f M e d i c i n e and E n v i r o n 18 m e n t a l H e a l t h . Ve have a C o r p o r a t e R e s ^ r c h C e n t e r 19 which has laboratorfes connected to which are exten 20 sive actual library f a c ilitie s . 21 Q Is that Corporate Research Center? 22 A Yes. And t h e n i n t h e l a s t d e c a d e 23 mostly th e re 's been a p ro life ra tio n of online computer 24 s e rv ic e s th a t w i l l give you access to a b s t r a c ts in 25 l i t e r a t u r e , a n d we s u b s c r i b e t o s e v e r a l o f t h e s e . JA M E S MAY R E P O R TIN G SER VIC E 1 q And, i f you know, p rior to about 2 te n y e a r s ago when you had a c c e s s to th e s e com puter 3 data b a ses, I suppose 4 A They have r e a l ly grown o n ly ab ou t 5 the la s t ten years. 6 Q Did the M onsanto l i b r a r i e s , were 7 they on, did they p rescrib e - - Is th ere lite r a tu r e th at 8 you s u b s c r ib e to or i f some s c i e n t i s t s ore whs re w r it e s 9 a p a p er, how do you g e t i t a s a t o x i c o l o g i s t ? 10 A A gain , th e r e * s no f i x e d a n sw er. T here 11 a re numerous a b s t r a c t s e r v i c e s . Chemical, a b s t r a c t s , 12 b i o l o g i c a l a b s t r a c t s a re the l a r g e s t , but t h e r e a r e 13 a l s o v a r io u s su bs pec Lai t i e s in s u b j e c t d i s c i p l i n e s . W The r e a r e s e r v i c e s , one o f vh ic h is the i*ab le o f 15 c o n t e n t s in w hich th ey s im p ly r e p r o d u o ? t t n b l e o f 16 c on ten ts o f var iou s jo u rn s 1? a r-d i;hc-y n -., :>'*t Li l i t t l e 17 H ea d er1 3 D ig e s t r a g a r i p e - s i z e fo r r. 7 i / c s r i J o u r n a ls 13 w hich in d iv id u a ls su b s c r ib e to or g e t .a r t of th eir 19 membership in th ese s o r io t ia * . c o corson has h is 20 own way o f tr y in g to cope, w it h t h i s . 21 Q So i t l o o k s l i k e a eoo.b ina t i o n o f 22 t h i n g s . I g u e s s , t h e M o n s a n to l i b r a r i e s v:oulc be on 23 one or more o f t h e s e c h e m i c a l a b s t r a c t s e r v i c e s ? 24 A That*s c o r r e c t . 25 Q And t h e s e t a b le o f c o n t e n t s e r v i c e s , JA M E S MAY R E P O R T IN G SER VIC E 1 1 and in a d d itio n , would the Monsanto r ese a rc h lib r a r ie s 2 a lso subscribe to various p u b lic a tio n s, I suppose? 3 A Y es. 4 Q And then in a d d it io n to t h a t , i n - 5 dividu al to x ic o lo g ists, lik e y o u rself, nay, perhaps, 6 subscribe to p ro fessio n a l p u b lication s? 7 A Yes. 8 Q Do you know how lo n g th e M onsanto 9 lib r a r ie s th a t you have been ta lk in g about have been 10 in' e x is t e n c e ? I s t h i s so m e th in g t h a t ' s been a lo n g - 11 tim e th in g w ith the company? 12 A I don' t know, but I would c o n jec tu r e 13 th a t Chav p r o b a b ly have a lm o s t th e same l i f e sp an a s 14 th e r e s e a r c h la b o r a t o r ie s th e m Iv e s. ..'ich r e s p e c t 15 to th e M ed ica l Departm ent l i b r a r y , i t p r o b a b ly g o e s 16 back to a b o u t th e tim e o f th e M ed ic a l D epartm en t s im p ly 17 b eca u se i t w ould be im p r a c t ic a l t o o p e r a te w it h o u t a IS lib r a r y r e so u r c e . 19 Q So I would c o n c lu d e from t h i s t h a t you 20 w ou ld n ' t have had a company w it h o u t th o s e k in d s o f 21 f a c i l i t i e s , probab ly? 22 A E v e r y .p la c e I have been a s s o c i a t e d 23 w it h has had a l i b r a r y , and I d o n ' t s e e how one c o u ld 24 p o ssib ly hope to even t r a i l a pack w ith ou t a lib r a r y . 25 You c o u l d n 't even hope to t r a i l a p ack w ith o u t a l i b r a r y , ' i J A M E S MAY R E P O R T I N G S E R V I C E 1 * i 1 A Yes. 2 *Q And anybody in v o lv e d in in d u s t r i a l 3 hygienet 4 A Yes. 5 Q And a l s o p e o p le in v o lv e d in th e M edi 6 c a l Department? 7 A T hat's co rrect. 8 Q These are lik e to o ls o f the tra d e, 9 I suppose? 10 A T h a t's c o r r e c t . IV Q Now, one p r o j e c t t h a t you remembered 12 sp e n d in g some tim e on in th e e a r l y t o mid ' 7 0 's was an 13 e x a m in a tio n o f San toph en R, and a t t n a t tim e t h e r e 14 were p ro b a b ly o th e r s u b s ta n c e s you w ere lo o k in g a t in 15 t h i s e v a lu a t io n p r o c e s s t h a t was g o in g on? l A T h a t's c o r r e c t . 17 Q Would ycu u n d e rta k e to do some r e s e a r c h 18 on t h a t in c o n n e c tio n w it h th e a c t u a l la b o r a to r y , t e s t s 19 and e x p e r im e n ts you w ere d o in g , lo o k a t th e l i t e r a t u r e 20 and t h a t k in d o f th in g ? 21 A What we w ou ld a tte m p t t o do w ou ld 22 be to attem pt to look a t the in form ation in our f i l e s , 23 a lo o k a t th e l i t e r a t u r e t o s e e w hat in fo r m a tio n may be 24 th e r e t h a t was n o t in our f i l e s . We w ou ld a tte m p t t o 25 g e t in form ation w ith r e s p e c t to who was u sin g i t and JA M E S MAY R E P O R T IN G S ER V IC E ft 1 how or what i t was b ein g u sed fo r so t h a t from th a t 2 c o m b in a tio n o f in fo r m a tio n we c o u ld r e a c h some ju d g 3 ments a s t o w hether the p rod u ct was r ea so n a b ly a c c e p t 4 ab le fo r i t s intended u se, could be used s a fe ly , whether 5 th e r e w ere q u e s t io n s w h ic h w ould a r i s e and we f e l t t h a t we c o u ld d e v e lo p a d d i t i o n a l in fo r m a tio n t o answ er th o s e 7 q u e s t io n s . T h a t's th e p e r s p e c t iv e w h ich we ta k e t h o s e . 8 Q And t h a t k in d o f in q u ir y may le a d 9 you to the reso u rce lib r a r y and a lit e r a t u r e search? 10 I t Enay le a d you in many d i f f e r e n t d i r e c t i o n s to c o l l e c t 11 t h i s in fo r m a tio n ? 12 A Y e s . 13 Q Now, d id t h a t e v a lu a t io n p r o j e c t 14 th a t you w ere g e n e ra lly in v o lv e d in in th e e a r l y t o mid 15 ' 7 0 * s , d id t h a t have an e n d , a t some p o in t in tim e 16 d id t h a t p r o c e s s come co an end? 17 A T h a t's a n e v e r - e n d in g p r o c e s s . I t 18 c o n t in u e s t o t h i s d a y , and p e r i o d i c a l l y we go back 19 and we r e v ie w t h in g s t h a t we have r e v ie w e d b e c a u se 20 o f som ething th a t tr ig g e r s a d e s ir a b ilit y o f goin g 21 back and lo o k in g a t I t . 22 Q So when we w ere t a l k i n g e a r l i e r a b o u t 23 your jo b b e g in n in g in 171 and c o n t in u in g e s s e n t i a l l y 24 unchanged th ro u g h to d a y , t h i s ev a lu a tio n p r o j e c t r e a l l y 25 i s your j o b , t h a t ' s w hat we have b een t a l k i n g a b o u t? JA M E S MAY R E P O R T IN G SER V IC E k 1 % J s I A T h at's the prim ary a sp e c t o f i t . v 2 Q Now, d u rin g t h is p e r io d 1971 through 3 today hav* you had o cca sio n to take a look a t and 4 e v a lu a te an end product th a t was m anufactured a t the 5 N itro f a c ilit y id e n tifie d as 2,4,5-T ? 6 A I don1t r e c a ll th a t I ever did anything 7 w ith 2 ,4 ,5 -T . 8 Q Have you done a n y work w it h one or 9 more o f the d io x in s ? 10 A I ! ve n e v e r done t e s t i n g w it h a d i o x i n . 11 Q Have you done a n y r e a d in g a b o u t d io x in 12 in c o n n e c tio n w it h your job ? 13 A I ' v e r ea d o f d i o x i n s , I ' v e rea d a b o u t 14 d i o x i n s , and in my comment a b o u t 2 , 4 , 5 - T , I ' v e r ea d 15 on 2 , 4 , 5 - T . 16 q Now, w ould you have been r e l y i n g on 17 th e M onsanto l i b r a r i e s f o r th o s e r e a d in g s ? 18 A Y e s, we w ould do s e a r c h th ro u g h 19 th e l i b r a r y t o g a th e r th e in fo r m a tio n . 20 q And you have done t h a t on 2 ,4 ,5 - T ? 21 A To some e x t e n t . 22 q And y o u 'v e a l s o done t h a t on one or 23 more o f th e d io x in s ? 24 A Yes. 25 Q Which o f the d io x in s , i f you can i J A M E S MAY R E P O R T I N G S E R V I C E is 1 remember, have you done th a t k in d o f r e se a r c h on through th e M onsanto R esearch Library? A I 'v e read som eth in g or o th er on probably tw enty d iffe r e n t isom ers because there are ta b le s in which th ey have l i s t e d acu te t o x ic it y of a s e r ie s o f them, and I'd say probably twenty item s may ap p ea r in some o f th o s e t a b l e s . Q One o f th e more p op u lar o f th e d io x in s a p p ea r s to be t e t r o c h lo r o d ib e n z o - p a r a - d io x in . Have you done some r e a d in g on th a t? A Yes, I have , % Do you r e c a l l when you s t a r t e d t h i s in q u iry through the lite r a tu r e in the research lib r a r y on 2 , 3 , rcL'O? A A gain, I'd say probably c a su a lly , when I s a y c a s u a l l y , X mean j u s t s o r t o f as a g e n e r a l in t e r e s t and h earin g d isc u ssio n s a t s c ie n t if ic m eetings p r o b a b ly th rou gh the mid ' 70*3 and towards the end o f th e '7 0 * s and th e p r e s e n t more in t e n s e , Q So we c o u ld g e n e r a l ly s a y you began som e g e n e r a l r e a d in g in the raid 170*s and a s we a p p ro a ch i today i t g e ts a l i t t l e more in t e n s e , r ig h t? A T hat's co rr ec t. Q Now, I assum e you did t h is r ea d in g on company tim e , i s th a t r ig h t? JA M E S MAY R E P O R TIN G SER VIC E i 1 A Since I work fo r the company tw enty- 2 fou r hours a day* seven days a week, the answer i s y e s . 3 Q G ive you an o p p o r tu n ity t o make a 4 selfserv in g statem ent, 5 A I do a la rg e amount a t home, I do 6 some a t w ork, so i t ' s a l l company tim e . 7 Q And was th e r e some p a r t i c u la r r e a s o n 8 why you began to take a lo o k a t th e se d io x in s in th e mid 9 17 0 ' s ? 10 A W e ll, in th e mid 170*5 j u s t a a g e n e r a l 11 i n t e r e s t in t o x i c o l o g y , t h a t th e y arft u n iq u e c h e m ic a ls , 12 p eo p le w ere b e g in n in g to d e v e lo p t o x i c o l o g y d a ta and 13 th e y a re o f g e n e r a l i n t e r e s t o f t o x i c o l o g i s t s , s o you 14 s t a r t t a l k i n g t o p e o p le a t m e e tin g s and p e o p le s t a r t 15 p u b lis h in g a r t i c l e s ana you read - th e n . 16 Q D id you r ea d a b u t d io x in s in c o n n e c 17 t io n w it h c h lo r a c n e in th e n id 17 0 's ? 18 A I d o n 't r e c a l l where th e c h lo r a c n e 19 c r e p t i n . I t was n o t i n i t i a l l y a c h lo r a c n e q u e s t io n 20 th a t I r e c a l l , 21 Q What i n i t i a l l y was th e q u e s t io n - 22 My u n d e r s ta n d in g i s th a t your i n t e r e s t in a s u b s ta n c e 23 l i k e t h a t would b e , number o n e , o f c o u r s e , in i t s 24 e x i s t e n c e , b u t what i t may do t o o r g a n ism s, w hat i t 25 may do to human b e in g s a s a t o x i c o l o g i s t ? JAM ES MAY R E P O R T IN G SER VIC E 4 1 A T hat's c o rre c t. 2 Q And I assum e you w ere r e a d in g th e 3 l i t e r a t u r e in th a t fa s h io n in th e mid 17C's fo r th a t 4 reason because th a t was your f ie ld ? 5 A The i n t e n t o f t o x i c o l o g y i s u l t i 6 m a tely to p r o t e c t p e o p le . In th e 17 0 's when we a r e 7 rea d in g abou t i t , i t was predom inantly from a sta n d 8 p o in t o f, you m ight alm ost sa y , in t e ll e c t u a l c u r io s it y . 9 This is a fa s c in a tin g compound. In form ation is b ein g 10 d e v e lo p e d and a p p e a r in g in th e l i t e r a t u r e . I t p o s e s n some r a th e r unique p r o p e r t ie s , so i t ' s a g e n e r a l p ro 12 f e s s i o n a l i n t e r e s t t h a t was w here th e i n i t i a l r e a d in g s 13 in d io x in began . 14 J And when you began your i n i t i a l 15 r e a d in g , die- you read a n y th in g a b o u t i t ? t o x i c i t y or 16 o b serv ed e f f e c t s on human b e in g s ? 17 A As f a r a s I can r e c a l l , th e e f f e c t s 13 on human b e in g s came in much l a t e r . 19 Q When you w ere r e a d in g in th e mid T7 0 ! S , 20 w ere tem p o ra l c o n n e c tio n s b e in g made betw een sym ptom s, 21 p h y s ic a l e f f e c t s on humans, ana e x p o su r e to d io x in ? 22 MR. LOVE: Can I a s k you w hat you 23 mean by ''te m p o r a l'1? 24 Q (By Mr. C a lw e ll) In tim e . In o th e r 25 words, a fe llo w has been working fo r a p lan t and got JA M E S MAY R E PO R TIN G SER V IC E i n t o som eth in g th a t may c a r r y a d i o x i n iso m er and a l l o f a sudden he breaks out in ch loracn e or com plains a b o u t b e in g tir e d and th a t kind o f th in g . In other w ords, what you have th ere i s m erely a f a c t o f a tim e r e la t io n s h ip . Did you s t a r t to read abou t th a t in the mid f 7 0 's 7 A Somewhere a lo n g the lin e the a s s o c ia t i o n came in . My g e n e r a l r e c o l l e c t i o n - - and I w i l l have to back up to s o r t o f put i t in c o n t e x t -- in th e 1960's thalidom ide, I have no in te r e s t in th alid om id e, I never worked w ith i t , but i t ' s a unique th in g th a t b u r st on the t o x i c o l o g i c a l sc e n e and was tn a n ife ste d in the m alform ation o f in fa n ts . This being o f g rea t in te r e st to c o x ic o lo g is ts . Perhaps not as d ram atically or a n s lo g o u s , d io x in s appear on the s c e n e , h ig h ly p o t e n t , Im purities in products, is the e f f e c t the product or i s i t the im p u rity and can im p u r itie s be g o tte n o u t and the product k ep t. So from th a t a n a lo g y w ith th a lid o m id e , t h a t f s when my i n t e r e s t in d io x in s a p p e a r e d . I t was th a t p o in t o f view from a to x ic o lo g y sta n d p o in t an in te r e s tin g s u b je c t. I was not read in g w ith any c o n sc io u sn e ss I was goin g to g e t any d ir e c t in volvem en t w ith the m ateria l. Q And d id th e m a t e r ia ls you w ere r e a d in g make o b s e r v a tio n s a b o u t th e p h y s i c a l e f f e c t s o f th e JAM ES MAY R E P O R T IN G S ER V IC E 1 d io x in s on humans or s u s p e c te d e f f e c t s ? 2 A The e a r l i e s t r e a d in g s I d id in th e 3 t o x ic o lo g y jo u r n a ls was d e s c r ib in g an im al e x p e r im e n ts, 4 and oth er th an , perhaps, a c a s u a l m ention in the in 5 t r o d u c tio n someone m ight have made th e y were n o t c o n cerned w ith eq u atin g e f f e c t s w ith humans. 7 Q In the read in gs you began to do in 8 the c o n t e x t we have been t a l k i n g a b o u t in the mid 17 0 ?s , 9 did you read abou t the t o x ic e f f e c t o f d io x in s on c e r t a in 10 a n i :ia Is? n A Y es, th ese wore d escrib ed in r e s u lts o f. 12 Q Ar.d do you r e c a l l what th o se w ere? 13 k V e i l , th e two - - 14 > . T.OVY : " ha t th e a r t ic le s we re ? 15 Q r5 y K r. -a d w ell) I '- i.^ o r r y . The 16 e f f e c t s on the.3 <-; a n i.on 1 s tud ie ? . 17 A T e . \ \ , th e two ones we a re d e a l in g w it h , 18 p o t e n t i a l c a r e i n o g i c i t v and the p o s s i b l e r e o r o d u c t iv e 19 e f f e c t s , th o se were th e two a r e a s t h a t m ost o f t h a t 20 i n i t i a l work was b ein g d on e. 21 Q How a b o u t the s k in i r r i t a t i o n , r a b b it 22 e a r t e s t and t h a t kind o f th in g ? T hat was in c lu d e d in 23 your r e a d in g s , t o o , w a s n 't i t , in th e n id 17 0 's ? 24 A I s u s p e c t i t w a s , b u t th o s e a r t i c l e s 25 d o n 't sta n d o u t. As I s a i d , m ost o f th e ones I r e c a l l JA M E S MAY R E P O R T IN G SER V IC E 1 3 1 were d ealin g w ith te ra to lo g ic e ffe c ts and the cancer issu e . 2 Q And d id you r e l y on th e M onsanto 3 lib r a r ie s as your source for readings? 4 A W ell, a l l o f them, in clu d in g s c i e n t i f i c 5 d is c u ssio n s and the m eetings w ith o th e r s. Q And in c lu d in g th e M onsanto l i b r a r i e s ? 7 A Yes. S Q D uring th e same tim e p e r io d we have 9 been ta lk in g ab ou t, your kind of in tr o d u ctio n to the VO d io v .in s in th e mid *70*5, do you remember r e a d in g a 11 s tu d y oy a gen tlem an named Hoffman e n t i t l e d "R ecen t 12 p e r i meat s w ith H ig h ly T onic Ha phtha le n e s d a te d 1957? 13 A I d o n 't p a r t i c u l a r l y r e c a l l th e a r t i c l e , 14 Q -.'ould you know one by Rimmig and 15 S c h u lz , " C h lo r in a te d A rom atic C y lic R s te r s a s S u b s ta n c e s 1 R e s p o n s ib le f o r the S o - c a l le d C h lo r a c n e ," d ated 1957? 17 A I d o n 't r e c a l l th a t paper s p e c i f i c a l l y . 18 Q Have you heard the a u t h o r s ' names b e fo r e ? 19 A Kiranig I 've h e a r d , and I b e l i e v e he 20 w ro te a r e v ie w on c h lo r a c n e . 21 Q And do you know w h eth er you' ve r ea d 22 h is review or not? 23 24 25 th a t? A I d id read h i s r e v ie w on c h lo r a c n e . Q Do you r e c a l l when you m ight have done JAM ES MAY R E P O R TIN G SER VIC E 1 A W ithin the l a s t y e ar or two or th r e e . 2 Q And you g o t t h a t o u t o f the M onsanto 3 library? 4 A R ight. 5 Q Are you fa m ilia r w ith an a u th o r, and I thin k I ' a pronouncing th is wrong, O etel? I th in k it* s 7 0 -e -t-e -l. 8 A Oe te 1. 9 Q You must have had German, r ig h t ? 10 A I a l s o knew O e t e l. 11 Q Did you s tu d y German, i n c i d e n t a l l y ? 12 A I once c o n s id e r e d German when X was 13 in c o l l e g e . 14 Q do you can road s t u d i o s w r i t t e n in 15 German, r ig h t ? l A I have read them. 17 Q Are you f a m i li a r w ith or have you 18 rea d a s tu d y by O e t e l, " R e s u lts o f T e s t s on A n im als and 19 C l i n i c a l E x p e r ie n c e s w ith H ig h ly T o x ic C h lo r in a te d 20 N a p h th a le n e , a C o n tr ib u tio n to th e Perna P rob lem ," in 1955? 21 MR. LOVE; L et me p la c e an o b j e c t i o n 22 on the r e c o r d .. S t u a r t , i f you can r e l a t e 23 your q u e s tio n s a s to tim e , i t w i l l be v e r y 24 h e l p f u l i f you can a s k him when he read 25 so m eth in g . The rea so n b e in g sim p ly by v ir t u e JA M E S MAY R E P O R T IN G SER V IC E I 1 of his t i t l e , ob viou sly, I spent a great 2 d ea l of time w ith th is gentlem an in terms 3 o f th is case sin c e se v e r a l years a g o , and 4 h e ' s done a g r e a t d e a l o f work in my reg a rd 5 a t my r e q u e s t w h ich w ould be a t t o r n e y work product or th in gs prepared in a n tic ip a tio n 7 o f or for l i t i g a t i o n . I have no problem 8 w ith your in q u ir in g o f him as to what he 9 did p rior to th at time or as to what he 10 did a f t e r t h a t tim e t h a t was n o t r e l a t e d 11 to th e m atter w h ich we a r e in v o lv e d , b u t 12 I want you to be a b le to g e t as much a s 13 you can from che w i t n e s s , but I want you 14 to be s e n s i t i v ; to w hat we a re t a l k i n g a b o u t. 15 Q (3y Mr. C a lw e ll) On th e s e s t u d i e s 16 I have bean t a lk in g a b o u t, and I'm r e f e r r in g to t h i s tim e 17 fram e we have been t a lk in g a b o u t , t h i s mid ! 7 0 r s p e r io d 18 o f tim e when you s t a r t e d your r e a d in g s , and th en w e ' l l 19 ad van ce in tim e u n t i l we g e t t o th e p o in t t h a t d i s t r e s s e s 20 Mr. L o v e. Do you remember th e s tu d y j u s t m en tio n ed by 21 O e te l in t h a t tim e frame? 22 A I'm su re I d id n o t read i t in t h a t 23 tim e fram e. I'm n o t su re t h a t I e v e r rea d i t . 24 Q How d id you happen to know O e t e l or 25 m eet him? Was t h i s in c o n n e c tio n w it h your work a t JAM ES MAY R E PO R TIN G SER V IC E \ 1 Monsanto? 2 \ > \A This was in con n ection w ith work a t 3 Cyanamida.w it h BASF, h i s e m p lo y e r , and Cyanamide had a 4 common i n t e r e s t in s ome che m ica I s . Ac t u a 1 l y , I th in k 5 I met him e a r l i e r a t s c i e n t i f i c m eetin gs in h is c o u n tr y , but that cemented the r e la tio n s h ip . 7 Q A gain, during th is time p eriod were 8 you fa m ilia r w ith or did you read a stu dy by, is i t 9 Padder., P - a - d - d - e - r , and B au er, ''I n d u s t r i a l I n t o x i c a 10 t io n Due to P e n t a c h l o r o o h e n o l d a t e d 1951? Had t o do 11 w ith l i v e r d i s e a s e and p e r ip h e r a l n erv o u s s y s te m , lu n g s , 12 s k in . 13 A I d o n f t r e c a l l r e a d in g t h a t a r t i c l e , 14 Q Do you r e c a l l d u r in g t h a t tim e p e r io d 15 r e a d in g an y s t u d i e s or r e p o r t o f s t u d i e s c o n d u cte d a t 16 the BASF P la n t in Germany r e g a r d in g a 1953 i n c i d e n t 17 when an a u t o c la v e r e a c t i o n ran away? 18 A I f ve read o f t h a t s t u d y , a t l e a s t , 19 in some a b b r e v ia te d s e s s i o n s . I d o n f t r e c a l l s p e c i f i c a l l y 20 when. I t may have been r e l a t i v e l y r e c e n t l y . 21 Q And l i k e w i s e , d id you g e t t h a t o u t o f 22 th e M onsanto lib r a r y ? 23 A Y e s, s i r . 24 Q Which M onsanto l i b r a r y we t a lk in g 25 ab o u t? I th in k you s a i d t h e r e w ere s e v e r a l . JA M E S MAY R E P O R T IN G SER V IC E t 1 A My p r i m a r y c o n t a c t w o u l d be t h e 2 lib r a r y in the Department o M edicine and Environm ental 3 H ealth ,w h ich i s the departm ent th a t I'm in . That f a c i l i t y 4 has a c c e ss to a l l oth er M onsanto lib r a r ie s as backups 5 plus o u tsid e s e r v ic e s . Q Do you have a l i b r a r i a n in th e r e t h a t ' s 7 in charge o f th a t place? 8 A Yes. 9 What i s t h a t p e r s o n 's name? 10 4 M iss '-Cary D avis . 11 Q How lo n g ^ias sh e been w ith th e company, 12 i f you Know? 13 A he has beer* in th e d ep artm en t som e 14 where s i x or e ig h t y.-.-ar:;. _hc nas been w ith the company 15 .r.uc'n Longer than t h a t , our. I 'c . n o t su re now much lo n g e r . l ^ o h s ' s a l i b r a r i a n , s o I assum e her 17 work w it h th e company has been a s a l i b r a r i a n , a s f a r a s 18 you know? 19 A As f a r a s I knew. 20 Q Do you know her a p p roxim ate a g e? 21 A he became a grandm other S a tu r d a y . 22 V.'e have been k id d in g her on t h a t . 23 Q You u n d ersta n d s h e ' s been w it h th e 24 company fo r some p erio d o f tim e, then? 25 A Yes. JA M E S MAY R E P O R T IN G S ER V IC E 1 Q ^ Now, is sh e in charge o f th e lib r a r y 2 as the lib r a r ia n , is she the head person in the lib ra r y 3 in the Monsanto scheme o f th in g s? 4 A Y es. 5 Q I s th ere some stu d y or group o f s tu d ie s 6 on th e d io x in s t h a t you c o n s id e r to be a u t h o r i t a t i v e ? 7 A There are s e v e r a l rev iew s on d io x in . 8 A l l c la im to be a u t h o r i t a t i v e . I gu ess j u s t a s b eau ty 9 is in the eye o f the beholder, the a u th o rita tiv en ess of 10 them depends on th e r e v ie w e r . 11 Q O.K. In your judgm ent who do you 12 re 1 y on ? 13 A None o f them and a l l o f them. Most 14 o f them a r e good c o m p ila t io n s o f w h a t's in the l i t e r a t u r e , 15 th e y a r e a means o f l o c a t i n g w hat o th e r p e o p le have s a i d . 1 Most o f them a r e a t b e s t a r e c i t a l o f th e p o r tio n t h a t 17 th e r e v ie w e r , t h a t p a r t i c u la r w r i t e r , r e v ie w e r , f e l t 18 was Im p o rta n t. S in c e we a l l may put d i f f e r e n t a s s e s s 19 ments on t h i n g s , one has to go b ack , In my o p in io n , lo o k 20 a t th e th in g s and s e e what th e o r ig in a l a u th or a c t u a l l y 21 s a i d , how j u s t i f i e d h is s ta te m e n ts w ere in term s o f h i s 22 I n fo r m a tio n , t r y t o s o r t o u t th e o p in io n from th e f a c t 23 and th en su p erim p o se o n e 's own o p in io n s to make i t 24 a u t h o r i t a t i v e . 25 Q Are th ere any in d iv id u a ls th a t you JA M E S MAY R E P O R TIN G SER VIC E I \ 1 1 have id e n t if ie d through th a t p rocess you have j u s t d es- 2 !/ ^ - ' c r i b e d thifc' you r e l y on and c o n s id e r to be a u t h o r i t a t i v e ? 3 t;; 'A Can I b rea k th e q u e s tio n in two p ie c e s ? 4 Q Sure. 5 A I r e l y on th e p u b lish ed l i t e r a t u r e . 6 T hat w ou ld in c lu d e Symposium V olum es. The N a tio n a l 7 I n s t i t u t e s o f H ea lth has symposium. There i s the Mono- 8 graph e d ite d by R inata Kimbrough, th ere are books by t 9 Young, a l l o f w hich are u s e f u l fo r g e ttin g a t informant' y??. . y , :: : 10 t i o n . T here i s a tw o-volum e s e t p u t o u t by th e VA-oa:*y 11 .il*4* * 'V the h e a r in g s, and th ere is a two-volume s e t put o u t by 12 th e c o u n t e r p a r t o f t h e N a t io n a l R esea rch League it* 13 Canada. A l l o f th o s e a r e good s o u r c e s f o r l o c a t i n g 14 th e l i t e r a t u r e . P er h a p s, th e m ost o b j e c t i v e , and I 15 w ou ld c o n s id e r a u t h o r i t a t i v e , w ould be the two d o cu - 16 [Dents by th e C anadian N a t io n a l R e se a rc h C o u n c il. I t ' s 17 n o t q u i t e th e N a t io n a l R e se a rc h C o u n c il, b u t i t ' s th e 18 e q u i v a l e n t o f t h a t in Canada. X w ould th in k t h a t ' s 19 p r o b a b ly th m o st, in my ju d g m en t, t h a t ' s th e m ost 20. a u t h o r i t a t i v e . 21 Q How d id you r e a c h t h a t c o n c lu s io n ? 22 A I t ' s a r e a d in g o f docum ents, t h e i r 23 d e s c r i p t i o n o f th e way th e y t r e a t th e s u b j e c t . X t h in k 24 th e y a r e o b j e c t i v e , I th in k th e y lo o k a t i t from a l l 25 i s s u e s and r e a c h c o n c lu s io n s w h ich a r e d e f e n s i b l e . I t ' s J A M E S MAY R E P O R T I N G ' S E R V I C E l 4( 1 a judgment. 2 : Q In your read in g o f th a t Canadian 3 N a tio n a l R esearch League, or w hatever i t i s , have you 4 read rep o rts or stu d ie s or view s o f any anim al s tu d ie s 5 c o n n e c te d w it h one or more o f th e d io x in s ? 6 A A ll o f the sources I m entioned have 7 anim al s tu d ie s d escrib ed in them. 8 Q A g a in ,r d fe r r in g to the Canadian 9 N a tio n a l, what t o x ic e f f e c t s on an im als have you read 10 a b o u t r e l a t e d t o 2 , 3 ,7,8-TCDD? 11 A I t has been shown to be h i g h l y t o x i c 12 to c e r t a i n a n im a l s p e c i e s in s i n g l e d o s e s , c o n s id e r a b ly 13 l e s s t o x i c t o o t h e r s . I t h as a w ide v a r i a b i l i t y on 14 t o x i c i t y in s h o r t-te r m e x p o su r e to a v a r i e t y o f a n im a ls . 15 I t has been fe d fo r e x te n d e d p e r io d s o f tim e t o r a t s . 16 T h ere1s some d isa g r e e m e n t a s to th e c o n c lu s io n s o f th e 17 s t u d i e s t h a t w ere d on e. They produce c a n c e r In lo n g 18 term f e e d in g s t u d i e s in r a t s . Some p e o p le c la .in th e r e 19 I s a h ig h e r l e v e l t h a t has n o t produced c a n c e r and some 20 p e o p le d is p u t e t h a t . A t r e l a t i v e l y low d o s e s i t p ro 21 d u ces m a lfo r n n tio n s in pups and r a t s . A g a in , th e q u e s 22 t i o n o f w h eth er or n o t th e r e i s an e f f e c t l e v e l , low 23 e f f e c t l e v e l . So the i n t e r p r e t a t i o n o f th e f i n d in g s i s 24 q u it e v a r ia b le . 25 Q \n y e v id e n c e o f l i v e r damage? 1 JA M E S MAY R E P O R T IN G SER VIC E 1 A Y es, th ey produced liv e r damage. 2 Q Any e v id e n c e o f some d e le t e r io u s 3 e f f e c t s on th e enzyme system s o f an im als? 4 A There are e f f e c t s on enzyme sy stem s. 5 I'm not sure th ey are d e le te r io u s . 6 Q And how a b o u t th e immune s y s te m , you 7 read about any e f f e c t s in th is Canadaian N a tio n a l R esearch 8 League? 9' A There have b een e f f e c t s r e p o r te d t o 10 th e immune s y s te m. 11 Q And w hat e f f e c t s w ere th o se t h a t you 12 have read a b o u t in t h i s C anadian N a t io n a l R esearch ? 13 A The s u s c e p t i b i l i t y o f a n im a ls i n f e c 14 t i c n s w ith o th e r organ ism s a p p ea r s to be in c r e a s e d on 15 o c ca s io n . 16 Q In t h i s same r e a d in g put o u t by th e 17 Canadian N a t io n a l R ese a rc h L ea g u e, a n y th in g th e r e a b o u t 18 human a c t i o n and th a 2 ,3 ,7 ,8 -T C D D ? 19 A T here a r e r e f e r e n c e s to some o f th e 20 s t u d i e s r e p o r te d on p e o p le in d u s t r ia l l y e x p o se d t o 21 a c c id e n t s o f one s o r t or a n o th e r w here in r e t r o s p e c t 22 i t ' s b e l ie v e d t h a t 2 , 3 , 7 , 8 or some d io x in s may have been 23 in v o lv e d . 24 Q What k in d s o f p h y s i c a l e f f e c t s a r e 25 su s p e c te d in th o se? - i J A M E S MAY R E P O R T I N G S E R V I C E i 1 A The o n ly c o n s is t e n t fin d in g i s the 2 report of chloracne. 3 Q Are th ere any in c o n s is te n t fin d in g s? 4 A W e ll, when we s a y i n c o n s i s t e n t f i n d i n g s , 5 the term I u s e /c o n s is t e n t "i f you lo o k a t the d if f e r e n t 6 r e p o r ts , v i r t u a ll y a l l o f them w i l l d is c u s s c h lo r a c n e . 7 One may sa y so m e th in g was o b se r v e d and some o th e r r e p o r t 8 d o e s n ' t m en tion t h a t or f in d so m e th in g d i f f e r e n t . The 9 common th rea d i s th e c h lo r a c n e . T here a r e in d iv i d u a l 10 th in g s r e p o r te d in d i f f e r e n t s t u d i e s , and how v a l i d 11 or r e p r o d u c ib le th e y a r e i s h i g h l y q u e s t io n a b l e . 12 Q And has t h e r e been some l i v e r damage 13 r e p o r te d in humans? 14 A I'm n o t su re on t h a t s u b j e c t . I 15 b e l i e v e th e r e may have been some t r a n s i e n t l i v e r damage 15 s h o r t l y a f t e r e x p o s u r e . 17 Q And l i p i d m eta b o lism ? 18 A T here have been a n a ly s e s done on 19 l i p i d m eta b o lism , b u t I c a n ' t r e c a l l s p e c i f i c a l l y r i g h t 20 now w h ich w a y th e y w e n t. 21 Q How a b o u t an y e f f e c t on enzyme s y s t e m s , 22 e n d o p la sm ic r e tic u lu m ? 23 A I d o n 't th in k th o s e m easurem ents have 24 been done in humans. 25 Q How a b o u t th e immune sy stem ? JA M E S MAY R E PO R TIN G SER V IC E I 1 A There was a newspaper accou n t r e c e n tly 2 o f e f f e c t s an immune s y s te m s . 3 Q I'm ta lk in g abou t the Canadian R esearch 4 League. 5 A In humans, I d o n 't b e lie v e I r e c a ll r e a d in g o f th e e f f e c t on immune sy ste m s in humans. 7 Q What a b o u t a n y th in g r e l a t i v e t o ca n cer 3 in these papers? 9 A In terms o f c o n siste n c y , th e r e 's no 10 r e p o r t o f c a n c e r . There may be one or two in s t a n c e s 11 w here th e r e i s a s ta te m e n t w here a c a n c e r or two may 12 have o c c u r r e d . There a r e some new spap er a c c o u n t s , a g a i n , 13 o f c a n c e r s , b u t th e y a r e n o t q u it e th e same le a g u e a s 14 th e s c i e n t i f i c l i t e r a t u r e , a t l e a s t , I d o n 't t h in k i t i s . 15 MR. LOVE; S t u a r t , you want to take 16 a b r e a k . We have been a t t h i s a l i t t l e o v er 17 an h o u r . 18 (Whereupon a *h?rt r e c e s s was ta k e n , 19 a f t e r w h ic h th e f o l lo w in g p r o c e e d in g s w ere 20 h a d : ) 21 Q (By Mr. C a lw e ll) C o n tin u in g on a b o u t 22 the C anadian N a t io n a l R e se a r c h d o cu m en ts, do you r e c a l l 23 a n y symptoms t h a t you r ea d a b o u t t h a t have some tem p o ra l 24 c o n n e c tio n w it h th e d i o x i n e x p o su r e in humans? 25 MR. LOVE; S t u a r t , I w ant to a s k you JA M E S MAY R E P O R T IN G S E R V IC E ( 7 a g a in a b o u t the word " te m p o r a l." I know . 2 .g e n e r a lly what i t means, but are you speak 3 ing o f acu te as opposed to long-term . 4 E v e r y th in g w ould have some tem poral r e l a 5 tion sh ip to everything e ls e . 6 Q (3y Hr. C a lw ell) w e ll, as I under 7 sta n d i t , i f you*re lo o k in g a t , a s a t o x i c o l o g is t , you 8 h ave someone who may be sym ptom free or a t l e a s t g iv in g 9 no c o m p la in ts, h e 's exp osed to some su b sta n c e , fo llo w in g 70 t h a t e x p o su r e you h ave some c o m p la in t s . Now, th e r e may 71 or may n o t be a tr u e c a u s a l c o n n e c tio n betw een th e e x 72 p o su re and th e c o m p la in t s , b u t n e v e r t h e l e s s , you have 73 to lo o k a t t h a t tim e r e l a t i o n s h i p a s a f a c t o r in t h a t 74 in q u ir y , t h a t ' s a c c u r a t e , i s n ' t i t ? 75 A T hat w ould be r e a s o n a b ly a c c u r a t e . l Q So my q u e s t io n t o you i s in th e 77 C anadian N a t io n a l R e se a rc h p a p e r s , have you been made 78 aware o f symptoms t h a t hurrans e x h i b i t t h a t may have su ch 79 a r e l a t i o n s h i p t o e x p o su r e t o a s u b s ta n c e t h a t ' s s u s 20 p e c te d o f b e in g one o f th e d i o x i n s , s p e c i f i c a l l y , 2 , 3 , 7 , 8 ? 27 A W ith th e e x c e p t io n o f c h lo r a c n e , the 22 i n d i v i d u a l s a f t e r th e e p is o d e s have had some c o m p la in t s . 23 I d o n 't r e c a l l th e s p e c i f i c d e t a i l s o f th e c o m p la in t s . 24 They a r e r a t h e r g e n e r a liz e d c o m p la in t s . Going back t o 25 your e a r l i e r s t a t e m e n t , th o u g h , t o a s s e s s th o se p r o p e r ly , JA M E S MAY R E P O R T IN G SER V IC E l 1 I th in k one would have to take n ote o f were those com- * *v 2 p la in ts o r sim ila r type o f general com plaints ev id en t 3 among th e * 6 p eo p le or have th ey v o ic e d them p r io r to 4 th e e p iso d e , the freq u en cy and v a r ie ty o f them, are 5 they sim ila r to the kinds o f com plaints a group of th a t 6 s iz e would have had p rio r to the e p iso d e . So th a t i f 7 one was lo o k in g fo r th in g s to t i e to g e th e r , I d o n 't 8 r e c a ll nor do I b e lie v e th at there are any com plaints 9 r e l a t e d t o phenoxy3 0 6 t ^c 10 Q O ther than th e c h lo r a c n e ? 11 A O ther than th e c h lo r a c n e . 12 Q But you have rea d o f r e p o r te d c o m p la in ts 9 13 h ave you n o t? A Yes. 15 Q A ches and p a in s in th e e x t r e m i t i e s ? 16 A A ches and p a in s , t i r e d n e s s . 17 Q I r r i t a b i l i t y ? 18 A (Nods head a f f i r m a t i v e l y . ) 19 Q S le e p d is o r d e r s ? 20 A Yes. A ll of which are evid en ced by 21 a n y p o p u la tio n a t an y tim e or o t h e r . 22 Q L oss o f l ib i d o ? 23 A One o f th e h a r d e s t t h in g s t o g e t from 24 people is an accu rate sex h isto r y . There is a tendency 25 to over-or underexaggerate. JA M E S MAY R E PO R TIN G SER V IC E 1 Q And how d id you have o c c a s io n t o become 2 aware o f it? 3 A He was making th e stu d y a t th e r e q u e s t 4 o f the M edical Department. 5 Q And w ere you in v o lv e d in t h a t r e q u e s t? A No, I was n o t. 7 Q Did you have any co n n ectio n w ith the 8 study? 9 A No, I did n ot. 10 Q D id you doany work w ith th e l i t e r a t u r e n on 2 ,4 ,5 r T in c o n n e c tio n w ith th a t study? 12 A I d i d n o t h i n g in c o n n e c t i o n w ith t h a t 13 s t u d y . 14 Did you do a n y th in g in c o n n e c tio n 15 w it h th e work f o r c e a t N it r o p e r t a in in g t o 2 ,4 ,5 - T ? 16 A I* v e n e v e r d e a l t w ith the work f o r c e 17 a t N it r o on an y i s s u e . 18 Q A re you f a m i li a r w i t ! a s tu d y th at' 19 h a s b een d e s c r ib e d in th e docursent.o, M^n^a-ito d o c u m e n ts, 20 a s th e DMEH Study? 21 A I w ould have to know w hich DMEH s tu d y 22 b e c a u se DMEH i s an a cron ytr. f o r D epartm ent o f M ed ic in e 23 and E n v iro n m en ta l H e a lth . 24 Q A DMEH s tu d y on th e N it r o p o p u la t io n , 25 N it r o P la n t p o p u la tio n ? JA M E S MAY R E P O R TIN G SER VIC E l 1 A I d on1t b e l i e v e I ?ve e v e r s e e n th e 2 a ctu a l study. 3 Q Are you aware th a t a stu d y was un der4 taken? 5 A Yes. I ju st said so e a r lie r . Q Now, i s th a t th e Suskind stu dy? 7 A T hat's the Suskind stu d y, in so fa r as 8 I know. 9 Q And how do you know th a t? 10 A B ecau se i t was a g e n e r a l d i s c u s s i o n 11 t o p ic in th e M ed ical D epartm en t. 12 Q That w ould be D r. Roush? 13 A Dr. Roush i s our M ed ica l D ir e c t o r and 14 head o f th e d ep a rtm en t. 15 Q And he t o ld you c h a t th e DMEH s tu d y l i s in f a c t th e S u sk in d s tu d y a s i t p e r ta in ? t o N it r o ? 17 A I'm n o t su re he made th a t s t a t e m e n t 18 d i r e c t l y , b u t we d id have p e r io d ic s t a f f .iie e t iu g s , and 19 th e d i s c u s s i o n o f w h a t's h a p p en in g i s made a t one o f 20 th o s e d e p a r tm e n ta l m e e tin g s , I presum e. So I h ave an 21 a w a ren ess o f i t , b u t I ' v e n o t been in v o lv e d in i t and 22 I'm n o t aware o f the s p e c i f i c d e t a i l s o f th e s t u d y , 23 Q And i f I u n d e rsta n d your t e s t im o n y , 24 you've never done any research in to the 2 ,4 ,5 -T product 25 or a n y t e s t s on th e N it r o 2 , 4 , 5 - T p r o d u c t lo o k in g a t th e JA M E S MAY R E PO R TIN G SER V IC E l lit e r a t u r e or the Monsanto f i l e s , an yth in g lik e th at? MR. LOVE: I*m n o t su r e I u n d e r sta n d the q u estio n . I f you do understand the q u e stio n , you can answer i t . I d id n 't understand i t . Q (By Mr. C a lw e ll) \ Did you understand what I 'm asking? A I g a th ered th e r e a r e two p a r ts tc th e q u e s t io n . One i s I d id n o t do a n y t e s t i n g on 2 , 4 , 5 -T q o . k.' A The o th e r o n e , w h ich l f ve s a i d e a r l i e r I'm aware of but I f ve n ot been in v o lv ed in the N itr o stu d y or the Suskind stu d y , Q D ii you ev er search Monsanto f i l e s fo r an y t e s t r e s u l t s or Lab r e s u l t s on 2 ,4 ,5 - T produ ced a t the N itro Plant? MR. LOVE; I*:3 g o in g to o b j e c t to the q u estion u n less you r e la te i t to a s p e c i f i c t in e p e r io d on th e grounds t h a t I m entioned e a r lie r . Q (By Mr. C a lw e ll) D u ring th e p e r io d o f time th a t you were employed a t M onsanto. MR. LOVL: You w ant i t up t o and i n clu d in g today? MR. CALWELL: Uh huh (ye s ) . JA M E S MAY R E P O R T IN G S ER V IC E 1 MR. LOVE: I ' m g o in g t o i n s t r u c t th e 2 w itn ess not to answer u n less i t r e la te s to 3 in fo r m a tio n p r io r to March o f 1981. Now, 4 w ith regard to the tim e period subsequent 5 to th a t, I would in s t r u c t him n o t to answer th a t q u e stio n on th e b a s is o f a t t o r n e y - c lie n t 7 p r iv ile g e and work product. 8 Q (By Mr. C a lw e ll) O.K. You u n d e rsta n d 9 what your law yer's done there? 10 A (Nods head a f f i r m a t i v e l y . ) 11 Q Do you a g r e e n o t t o an sw er? You a g r e e 12 to take h i s i n s t r u c t i o n and n o t an sw er th e q u e s tio n ? 13 A Gan I go o f f th e r e c o r d a m in u te? 14 MR. LOVE; I'm i n s t r u c t i n g you n o t 15 to answ er w it h r e g a r d t o th e m a tte r s I l m en tion ed s p e c i f i c a l l y . As t o t h in g s y o u 'v e 17 done f o r me a t my r e q u e s t w it h r e g a r d t o 18 t h i s l i t i g a t i o n , I'm i n s t r u c t i n g you n o t 19 t o answ er h i s q u e s t io n . As t o t h in g s you 20 have done p r io r to th a t f o r th e company, I 21 w ould i n s t r u c t you t o an sw er h i s q u e s t io n , 22 MR. CALWELL: Now, y o u 'r e u s in g '8 1 23 a s th e c u t o f f ? 24 MR. LOVE: I'm u s in g th e d a te o f th e 25 f i l i n g . JA M E S MAY R E P O R T IN G SER V IC E I 1 MR. CALLWELL: March o f *81? 2 MR. LOVE; March o f 1 9 8 1 , a s I r e c a l l . 3 I f I 1in w ron g, c o r r e c t me. 4 MR. CALWELL: I th in k i t was a b o u t 5 March. MR. LOVE: T hat was th e d a te o f the 7 f i r s t o f th ese f i li n g s o f th ese la w su its in 8 N itro. 9 MR. CALWELL: So i f I u n d e r sta n d your 10 o b j e c t i o n , y o u 'r e i n s t r u c t i n g him n o t t o 11 an sw er q u e s t io n s w it h r e g a r d to a n y th in g 12 he has done f o r you in c o n n e c tio n w it h t h i s 13 l a w s u i t , w h ich w ou ld h ave been on or a f t e r 14 th e f i l i n g d a t e w h ich we a g r e e was a b o u t 15 March o f *81? */ 16 MR. LOVE: T h a t's c o r r e c t . 17 Q (By Mr. C a lw e ll) You u n d e r sta n d what 18 th e d e a l i s t h e r e , D o c to r? 19 A I 'v e n o t looked fo r or gone in to the 20 m ed ica l f i l e s on the N itr o c a s e . T h a t's a hunan h e a lth 21 s i t u a t i o n w h ich i s n o t my p r o v in c e . 22 Q O.K. Now, when you sa y on th e N itr o 23 c a s e , you mean t h i s l i t i g a t i o n , i s t h a t r ig h t ? 24 A When I s a y N i t r o c a s e , I'm t a l k i n g 25 about your q u estion where you sa id the N itro study. JA M E S MAY R E P O R T IN G S E R V IC E i 1 Q So a s o f M arch, 1 9 8 1 , you n e v e r made 2 an y in q u iry in to the company f i l e s or lite r a tu r e fo r / 3 anything p ertain in g to the N itro P lan t, is th at righ t? 4 A T hat's co rrect. 5 Q And th e 2 ,4 , 5 - T p ro d u ct? 6 A T hat's co rrect. 7 Q S in ce 1981 has the company in s tr u c te d 8 you to do that? 9 MR. LOVE: L e t me once a g a in in t e r p o s e 10 an o b j e c t i o n s o th e r e w o n 't be an y m isu n d er 11 s t a n d in g . I f y o u 'r e a s k in g a b c u t m a tte r s 12 o th e r than f o r a pu rp ose o th e r than th e 13 N it r o l i t i g a t i o n - 14 MR. CALWELL: Uh huh (ye s ) . 15 MR. LOVE; -- I have no o b j e c t i o n 16 t o th e q u e s t io n . 17 MR. CALWELL: T h a t's the q u e s t io n . 18 MR. LOVE; I f h e ' s been i n s t r u c t e d by 19 t h e company p u rsu a n t t o th e N it r o l i t i g a t i o n , 20 I would t e l l ym n ot to answer the q u e s tio n . 21 I f you have been i n t o th e m a tte r t h a t Mr. 22 C a lw e ll's ask ed you abou t fo r any purpose 23 oth er than any l i t i g a t i o n , then I would 24 in s tr u c t you to answer the q u estio n . 25 A I e le c t not to answer the q u estion . JA M E S MAY R E P O R TIN G S ER VIC E 1 1 2 *3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 MR. LOVE: E it h e r you have or you ' c' **- haven* t , I t h in k i t d oes r e q u ir e an a n sw e r . I f you' re s a tis fie d , th a t' s fin e . A W ell, other than w ith r esp ec t to l it i g a t i o n , I have not looked a t the lite r a tu r e fo r 2 ,4 ,5 -T . Q (By Mr. C a lw e ll) Now, have you been made aw are - - T h is i s p r io r to '8 1 - - in your jo b a s a t o x i c o l o g i s t w ith your company - - L e t me a s k yai some p r e p a r a to r y q u e s t io n s a b o u t t h a t . We have been c a l l i n g you the t o x ic o lo g is t and you got th is joo w ith the company as a t o x ic o lo g is t . In an o r g a n iz a tio n a l s e n s e , how do you g e t your wor'*Y Does i t a l l fu n n e l i n t o you from t h e s e v a r io u s o p e r a tin g u n it s ? Do you have a r e sp o n sib ility for a p articu lar, lik e , In d u strial C hem icals or some p a r t ic u la r a r e a , or i s th a t a companyw ide problem? A We have r e s p o n s i b i l i t y f o r a l l o f the com panies1 to x ico lo g y . Q So i f th ere is a t o x ic o lo g ic a l in q u iry or problem o f s u f f ic ie n t m agnitude, i t w i l l e v en tu a lly g e t to your o ffic e , then, righ t? A That's g en era lly tru e. Q Now, p r io r to *81 had your o f f i c e b een made aw are o f a n y w orker c o m p la in ts t h a t N it r o c J A M E S MAY R E P O R T I N G S E R V I C E \ 54 i 1 w o rk ers may have had in th e 15 0 ' s , 16 0 's and 17 0 's 2 p erta in in g to chloracne? 3 A In my tim e a t M onsanto s t a r t i n g in 4 1971 I*ve n ot had a com plaint addressed s p e c if ic a lly to 5 c h lo r a c n e . Whether th ere were com p lain ts r e g is te r e d 6 w it h th e company in th e 14 0 ' s or 15 0 ! s or p r io r t o t h a t 7 I do n ot know. 8 Q But w hat y o u 'r e t e l l i n g me i s your 9 departm en t, your T o x ico lo g y Department - - Does i t have 10 an o f f i c i a l name? You may have a lr e a d y t o l d me and 11 I ' v e f o r g o t t e n . 12 A I t ' s the D epartm ent o f M ed icin e 13 and E n v ir o n m e n ta l H e a lth , w h ich c o n s i s t s o f s e v e r a l 14 u n i t s , one o f w h ich 1 w ould c a l l a s e c t i o n on t o x i c o l o g y 15 i s a p a r t o f th e Departm ent o f M ed icin e and E n v ir o n m e n ta l 16 H e a lt h . 17 Q So i f we c a l l i t the s e c t i o n on 18 t o x i c o l o g y , w e ' l l know w hat we a r e t a l k i n g ab o u t? 19 A T h a t's a good term . 20 Q Has anyone in your d ep a rtm en t in 21 t h i s s e c t i o n on t o x i c o l o g y , t h a t you know o f , p erform ed 22 a n y work or in q u ir e d i n t o , exam ined or i n v e s t i g a t e d 23 a n y w orker c o m p la in ts r e l a t e d t o th e 2 , 4 , 5-T p r o d u c t a t 24 th e N it r o P la n t and any h e a lt h c o m p la in ts , chloracne and 25 t h o s e o th e r g e n e r a l symptoms and c o m p la in ts we t a lk e d a b o u t ' ; J A M E S MAY R E P O R T I N G S E R V I C E h . i 1 1 e a r lie r , fa tig u e , aches and pains? 2 -v ,A I do n o t r e c a l l t h a t we have had 3 a com p lain t* o f t h a t n a tu r e r e f e r r e d to my s e c t i o n a t 4 the time I have been w ith the company. 5 Q Are you aware th a t th e r e were co m p la in ts 6 p rior to the time th a t you g o t there? 7 MR., LOVE: C o m p la in ts t o th e s e c t i o n 8 on t o x ic o lo g y ? 9 MR. CALWSLL: Y e s. 10 Q (By Mr. C a lw e ll) Any w r i t i n g s o r n memoranda,whatever, th at m ight appear in your reco rd s? 12 A W e ll, I'm n o t aware t h a t a n y c o m p la in ts 13 were made to th e s e c t i o n on t o x i c o l o g y a t a n y t im e . Ntx;, 14 w h eth er t h e r e w ere c o m p la in ts made to the M ed ic a l D e- 15 partm ent or to th e p h y s ic ia n s p r io r to my tim e , t h a t 16 w ould be c o n j e c t u r e on my p a r t . 17 Q I j u s t w ant to know w hat you know. 18 A I d o n 't have a n y know le d g e t h a t t h i s 19 was d o n e. 20 Q And I^ a n t to make su r e we u n d e r s ta n d , 21 when I s a y c o m p la in t s , I d o n 't mean i t ' s a w orker who 22 w rote you a lette r or c a l l e d you up , b u t a problem or an 23 is s u e r e l a t i n g t o c h lo r a c n e or some o th e r c o m p la in ts t h a t 24 m ight r e l a t e t o th e 2 ,4 ,5 - T p ro d u ct or th e N i t r o P la n t 25 a b o u t c h lo r a c n e and th o s e g e n e r a l symptoms t h a t we t a lk e d * i J A M E S MAY R E P O R T I N G S E R V I C E k* 5 I about. 2 A ' I don11 r e c a ll th a t's d irected to 3 my group o r p e o p le w o rk in g f o r me, a c o m p la in t o f the 4 nature th a t y ou 're sa y in g the N itr o people have had or 5 are com plaining t h is , t h is , th at or the other th in g . 6 Q Did you lea rn th a t com plaints o f th a t 7 n a tu r e w ere made t o th e M e d ic a l D epartm ent when you had 8 th ese b r ie fin g s w ith Dr. Roush and so forth ? 9 MR. L^VH: Once a g a i n , can you r e l a t e 10 your q u e s t io n t o a s p e c i f i c tim e? 11 Q (By Mr. C a lw e ll) P r io r to *81. 12 A I d o n 't r e c a l l t h a t c o m p la in ts o f 13 c h lo r a c n e or some o f th e "`th e r symptoms we a r e t a l k i n g 14 a b o u t have been d is c u s s e d a s r e l a t e d to th e N it r o w ork ers 15 in the tim e t h a t I have b een in th e M ed ic a l D epartm ent. 16 Q So a s f a r a s you know, th e n , th e f i r s t 17 tim e t h i s c h lo r a c n e , 2 , 4 , 5 - T , d i o x i n - r e l a t e d i s s u e came 18 up in your d ep a rtm en t was a f t e r *81, th e n , or in th e 19 M e d ic a l D epartm ent? 20 A In 1949 -- h ere I'm ta lk in g p a r tly 21 from , I g u e s s , a lm o s t h e a r s a y e v id e n c e , bu t d i s c u s s i o n s 22 th a t go around - - In 1949 Dr. buskind looked a t the 23 c h lo r a c n e w o r k e r s . T hat w a s ,q u o t e , p a s t h i s t o r y , in a 24 s e n s e . Then he was com m ission ed t o lo o k a t th o se w orkers 25 a g a in a b o u t t h i r t y y e a r s l a t e r . So t h a t from th e i n i t i a l JA M E S MAY R E P O R T IN G SER V IC E i r ep iso d e in '49 u n til the qu estion surfaced as is going down more r e c e n t l y f o r t h a t se co n d lo o k , I d on ' t r e c a l l th a t th ere was any d isc u ssio n about the N itro ep iso d e or chloracrie or such a t N itro , Q I t was j u s t a non-problem , a s fa r as you know, in the M edical Department or your departm ent? A I was n ot aware o f any is s u e in v o lv in g that su b ject a t that tim e. Q Is th at the kind o f th in g th a t the T o x ic o lo g y Departm ent w ould be c a l l e d in on i f th e r e had been? A I f I were to go jack to '49 and, sa y , trie r e a c t o r ulew up new, we w ould have been i n v o lv e d . probably would n ot have p h y s ic a lly v is it e d the scen e cr lo o k ed a t p e o p le , bu t we probab ly w ould have been in v o lv e d in d i s c u s s i o h s and w h atever o tn e r a c t i o n s we m ight have ta k e n . We p ro b a b ly w ould have p a r t i c i p a t e d . Q You knew th e r e was a c h lo r a c n e p rob lem a t N itr o throu gh ou t the p e r io d o f tiuje th a t th e y manu fa ctu red 2 ,4 ,5 - 1 , did you not? A I was n o t a t M onsanto d u rin g th e tim e , a s f a r a s I Know - - I'm n o t su r e when th e y sto p p e d m anufacturing, but I think they stopped m anufacturing in th e com pany, s o i t was much l a t e r in tim e than I e v e n r e a liz e d they had even m anufactured 2 ,4 ,5 -T . So I 'd JA M E S MAY R E P O R TIN G SER V IC E 1 1 have t o s a y n o , I was n o t aware o f the problem s th e y 2 had during the manufacture o f 2 ,4 ,5 -T . 3 Q I f you a c ce p t as true th a t th ere were 4 reported chloracne cases and other com plaints in v o lv in g 5 fa tig u e and ach es and pain s and s le e p d is o r d e r s from the w orkers who were in v o lv e d in th e 2 ,4 ,5 - T p r o c e s s 7 a t N itr o , if. th a t the kind o f problem th a t the T oxi8 c o lo g y Department would be c a lle d in on? 9 A We w ould be a sk e d to c o n t r i b u t e t o 10 th e r e s o l u t i o n o f the i s s u e , y e s , 11 3 And 'es lio n ia r .tc have a p o l i c y w here 12 a v o rk er w;io has been expose- to a ubs ta u ce , su c h a s 13 e ^ , 5 - T , un-d then b e g in s to e x h i b i t phys i c a l symptoms 14 ar.d comr-la i cs ah out c o n tiiiu e 1 urc-, in i t the po 1ic y 15 to remove them from exposure to `.cave them t h e r e , or 16 i s th e r e a p o l i c y a t a i l ? 17 S-'.r. ; Soy p e a k in g o f th e p o l i c y 18 tod ay, ii: 194? or - t period in between? 19 Q '3y ' ; r . _a S ' - S I ) l o l l , to d a y f i r s t . 20 A r7hen you sa y p o l i c y , I'm n o t s u r e , 21 p o l i c y or p r a c t ic e ? 22 Q '.'e ll, p r a c t ic e , 23 A I t ' s th e co'.im itrjent o f th e com pany, 24 i t ' s the p o lic y o f the company to p rovid e a h e a lth y , sa fe 25 w o r k p la c e . Now, how t h a t ' s im p lem en ted in terras o f JA M E S MAY R E P O R T IN G SER V IC E 1 s p e c i f i c s I r e a l l y don' t know and i t p r o b a b ly d oes 2 vary in i t s a p p lic a tio n in d iffe r e n t parts o f the company. 3 But my f u n c t io n in the t o x i c o l o g y end i s to d r.,* ist in 4 th a t g o a l o f p r o v id in g a h e a l t h y , s a f e w o r k p la c e f o r em 5 ployees . 1 Is i t a p rin cip le o f the f ie ld of 7 t o x i c o l o g y ;:nd i t s r e l a t e d i n d u s t r i a l h y g ie n e f i e l d n o t 8 t o r e e x p o se someone who has bean e x p o se d t o a h arm fu l 9 substance i? a t a l l p ossib le? 10 \ I ' l l g-o ba.'b. rhc s u b s ta n c e p er s e 11 is n ' t harm f11. I t ' s the c^nd 1cion ~ ~'z e x p o su r e t h a t may 12 be liar', f u 1 . And i f you ' re "'igni^-nt o f a h a i-n fu l e x 13 posure co rd i t i o n , then the e f f o r t , th e c a l w ould be 14 t o T t i t i tc , mod. i f y , a l t a r , to e l i n in a t a tVie larm 15 a s s o c i a t e d ; l t h the. e x p o su r e . 16 Q "!ou t o - t i f i e ] e a r l i e r , 1 b e l i e v e , 17 t h a t one o f th e w a7-: t h a t -cu r a. t "* : - - ic o lc s is t osn 18 beeome aware o f a orobIs - 1 or ' : -: la I n t , th e 19 l i t e r a t u r e and ther--. v e r t ? ^ " oth/.:-s th a t you 20 w ou ld lo o k a t ir. d e c id in g w h eth er vru h ave a t o x i c o l o g i e s 1 21 problem . I~ th e r e some sta n d a r d t h a t you have to d e ter m in e 22 when a s u s p e c te d h e a lt h r i s k , ev en though i t may n o t be 23 proven a b s o l u t e l y , r e a c h e s su ch p r o p o r t io n s t h a t you m ust 24 a s a t o x i c o l o g i s t a d v is e no fu r t h e r ex p o su re? Is th e r e 25 some b a la n c in g t h a t goes on th e r e ? I s th e r e some JAM ES MAY R E PO R TIN G SER V IC E 1 * 1 2 3 4 5 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 l 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 p r in c ip le th a t you as a t o x ic o lo g is t fo llo w to ^ t a t th a t issue? MR. LOVE; Once a g a i n , l ' d a s k you to c la r if y i f you 're sp eak ing in terms o f today or 1949. MR. CALWELL: I'm s p e a k in g in term s of h is fie ld gen erally. Q (By Mr. C a lw e ll) I s th a t the k in d o f a judgm ent t h a t a t o x i c o l o g i s t has t o make? A Your q u e s t io n 's k in d o f vague and broad. I f you're ask ing are there c le a r ly defined p r in c ip le standards th a t one a p p lie s and s a y s , s to p , t h is has gone too fa r , I'm not co g n iza n t o f any. Because of the v a r ie ty o f the m u ltip lic ity of is s u e s , q u estio n s and in clu d in g se r io u sn e ss o f e f f e c t s , th ere Is a h ost o f fa c to r s th a t go in . I f th ere was a c le a r human h a z a r d , you know, i f a m an s p i l l e d a c h e m ic a l on h is f in g e r t ip s and dropped d ead, you would o b v io u sly take trem endously str in g e n t p recau tion s th e r e a fte r . But when y o u 're n o t d e a lin g w ith su ch dram atic e v e n ts and, you know, what p o in ts do you u se to d ecid e t h i s , th a t and the o th er th in g . So t h e r e 's many h o sts o f th in g s in th ere. I t ' s alm ost im p ossib le to g e t a sim ple or d e fin itiv e answer to a q u estion o f th a t n atu re. Q So i f I understand what you 're sa y in g , J A M E S MAY R E P O R T I N G S E R V I C E 1 6 1 % '1 2 '3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 n 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 th en , i t ' s p art o f the to x ic o lo g ic a l d is c ip lin e fo r you t o lo o k a t th o se se p a r a te . f a c t o r s and a t some p o in t in tim e make a judgm ent in a g iv e n c a s e , "We a r e a t a p o in t w here th e r i s k i s no lo n g e r a c c e p t a b le and we must g et th ese people out o f there"? A R ig h t . You h i t two w o rd s. One i s i t ' s a ju d g m en ta l s c i e n c e t o a la r g e e x t e n t . And when you s a y th e r i s k i s a c c e p t a b l e , we can go through a lo n g recourse of what*s a ccep ta b le r is k , but those elem ents do g e t s tr o n g ly in tertw in ed in every d e c isio n o f th a t n a tu re . Q And in th e c o u r s e o f your em ploym ent a t M onsanto have you had o c c a s io n t o make su ch ju d gm en ts? A A g a in , you mean w ith r e s p e c t t o r i s k s ? Q Y es. A su b stan ce th a t you d e c id e , p erh a p s, p eo p le are b ein g exp osed to by w hatever means and you h ave had t o make a judgm ent and sa y t h a t th e r is k is no longer a ccep ta b le. A No. In my c a p a c i t y from th e e n v ir o n m en ta l a s s e s s m e n t schem e we have sto p p e d b e fo r e we p r o d u ced or e n t e r t a i n e d m aking m a t e r ia ls th a t we f e l t w ould p resen t unacceptable r is k s . Q But you have n ot done th at r e tr o s p e c tiv e ly in the sense that you nay - A I'm n o t c o g n iz a n t t h a t we have a .* J A M E S MAY R E P O R T I N G S E R V I C E 6 'L \ 1 ,2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 s i t u a t i o n or we had a s i t u a t i o n t h a t we f e l t th e r i s k s w ere such, we h ad to d is c o n tin u e the s it u a t io n d u rin g my tim e w i t h th e company. Q Are you f a m i l i a r w it h PAB, p a ra -a m in o - b ip h e n y l? A T h a t's why I s a i d my tim e a t th e company. Q So you a r e f a m i l i a r w ith th e PAB - - A I have some knowledge o f i t , y e s . Q And would th a t be an exam ple? A I ! ra n o t aware o f th e d e t a i l s , b u t I would have to sa y th a t is an example o f the r is k s were s u f f ic ie n t ly great where they decided to d iscon tin u e > m anufacture. Q Now, in making th ose kin ds o f ju d g - * m ents, what are the th in gs th at you as a t o x ic o lo g is t look at? A I t would cover every scrap o f in fo r - m ation I c o u ld g e t on th e s i t u a t i o n . I t w ould in c lu d e the nature o f the e f f e c t , the lik elih o o d or p r a c tic a lity or p ro b a b ility of co n tro llin g exposure, assessm ent as to w hether the r e s u lt and the exposure a fte r c o n tr o ls w as, q u ote, a c ce p ta b le or u n accep tab le in terms o f r is k . I t w ou ld in c lu d e a s e r i e s o f d e c i s i o n s . The u t i l i t y o f the product, i t s worth or the v a lu e. O bviously, the d ram atic exam ple i s something th a t m ight go in to a su ntan J A M E S MAY R E P O R T I N G S E R V I C E t 6 1 lo tio n or a h a ir c o lo r . Does i t warrant a degree o f 2 r is k th a t a drug to save a life -th r e a te n in g d isea se 3 m ight b e . So th ere is a v a r ie ty o f fa c to r s , and to 4 p r o p e r ly make th e judgm ent one w ould w ant t o g e t a l l 5 th e in fo r m a tio n o f w h atever n a tu re th a t m ight bear on 6 t h i s and s e e how a l l t h i s f i t s t o g e t h e r and w hat u l 7 tim ate c o n c lu sio n th ere would be, 8 Q Would you u n d ertak e th a t k in d o f in 9 q u iry and procedure, or r a th e r , what kind o f a problem 10 w ou ld w a r ra n t t h a t k in d o f u n d e r ta k in g p roced u re t h a t 11 you have j u s t t a lk e d a b o u t? I mean, you w o u ld n 't do 12 t h a t in e v e r y c a s e i f a guy g e t s a pim ple h ere and t h e r e , 13 but i s t h e r e some q u a l i t a t i v e a s s e s s m e n t you make on 14 t h e s e k in d o f problem s t h a t m ight be p r e s e n te d to you? 15 MPv, LOVE*. S t u a r t , I ' m g o in g t o ob 16 j e c t t o your q u e s t io n sim p ly b e ca u se I d o n ' t 17 u n d e r sta n d i t . I don' t know w h eth er y o u 'r e 18 a s k in g him t o sa y s i x p e o p le have to d ie 19 b e f o r e i t becom es a problem . I f Dr. L e v in sk a s 20 u n d ersta n d s the q u e s tio n , I 'd a sk him to 21 an sw er i t , bu t I d o n ' t . 22 A My g r e a t p u zzlem en t i s when you s a y 23 when t h i s s i t u a t i o n i s p r e s e n te d to you. As I s a i d 24 e a r l i e r , th e r e a r e s o many nuances in term s o f th e 25 c h e m ic a l and e f f e c t . So when you s a y t h i s problem , i f JA M E S MAY R E PO R TIN G SER VIC E \ 1. i t ' s n o t a c o n c r e te example or more c o n c r e te exam p le, 2 i t ' s d if f ic u lt to answer. 3 Q (By Mr. C a lw e ll) One o f your manu 4 f a c t u r i n g f a c i l i t i e s has o v er 200 p e o p le who h ave come 5 down w it h c h lo r a c n e , a g r e a t number o f them c o m p la in e d 6 o f aches and p a in s, sh o rtn ess of b reath , sle e p d is o r d e r s, 7 l o s s o f l i b i d o and th e r e j.s a c o n s i s t e n t p a t t e r n o f 8 th ose kinds o f c o m p la in ts, over 200 workmen's compen 9 s a tio n claim s are f i le d by the company in co n n ectio n 10 w it h th a t somewhat c o n s i s t e n t symptom c o m p la in t. I s i 11 t h a t th e k in d o f a problem from a t o x i c o l o g i c a l s i t u a t i o n 12 t h a t w ould v?arrant th e kin d o f in q u ir y you d e s c r ib e d ? 13 A X w ould a s k you how lo n g d id i t ta k e 14 th o se 200 workm en's c o m p en sa tio n c la im s to be f i l e d ? 15 Q About e ig h t e e n m onths. 16 A I s the e ig h te e n -m o n th tim e sp an d u r in g 17 w h ich th e s e c o m p la in ts o c c u r r e d and t h i s happened? 18 Q T h a t's r i g h t . 19 A Then I w ould ia y a t th e b e g in n in g o f 20 t h a t somewhere som eone sh o u ld s t a r t p o n d e rin g w h at th e 21 iss u e s a r e and i s t h i s a p rob lem . I n o th e r w o r d s, one 22 w ould n o t w a it f o r 200 c a s e s . One w ou ld s t a r t a t an 23 e a r l i e r s t a g e . 24 Q Would t h a t h y p o t h e t ic a l s i t u a t i o n 25 w a rra n t th e a l l - o u t e f f o r t t h a t you j u s t d e s c r ib e d t o me J A M E S MAY R E P O R T I N G S E R V I C E l 6 I 2 3 A 5 6 7 8 9 TO 11 12 13 U 15 Id 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 'C about looking at every scrap of evidence? W'. A Q I think i t would. And th e id e a o f t h a t i n q u i r y w ould l e a d you to th e p o i n t o f b e in g a o l e to make th e j u d g - ment c a l l about w hether the r i s k is a c c e p ta b le or u n a c ce p tab le in term s of f u r th e r exposure? A I w ouldn*t say th a t a r is k is a c c e p t- a b le or u n a c c e p ta b le . I th in k one would go to re s o lv e the issu e to reso lv e the problem . P erh ap s, the best e x a m p l e i s a b o u t s m o k i n g a n d l u n g c a n c e r . We know ch at a c e r ta in number o f lung c a n c e rs a re going to o c c u r , s o i r we h a d a c h e m i c a l a n d t h e r e w a s o n e i n a c l i f e r e n t i n d u s t r y some tim e bacK w here you g e t a l u n g c a n c e r c a s e a n d yoi s a y , w e l l , we e x p e c t t o f i n d a c o u o le lu n g c a n c e r s iu a g ro u p o f w o r k e r s . Some tim e l a t e r you g e t a n o t h e r lu n g c a n c e r an d th e y s a y , we ex p ect a couple more, tnen you g e t th re e , fo u r and f i v e . Somewr;-:re y o u s a y , my G o d , we h a v e m ore l u n g c a n c e r s than we s h o u l d s t a t i s t i c a l l y n a v e . Now y o u h a v e a c o g n i z a n c e o f a p r o o l e m . New i f so m e o n e w e r e to sa y , when did you f i r s t oecome aw are of t h is lu n g c a n c e r problem , so you go back to t h a t f i r s t c a s e w hich was a y e a r , f iv e y e a rs e a r l i e r and you s a y ,y o u mean you have known a b o u t i t f o r f i v e y e a r s and haven* t done an y th in g . I s a id , w e ll, the re c o g n itio n of i t J A M E S MAY R E P O R T I N G S E R V I C E i V 1 2 '3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 w asn r t u n t i l i t exceeded some b o u n d a rie s , you had to g e t more th a n you e x p e c te d . X t h i n k t h i s i s one o f the d if f ic u ltie s of a l l o ccu p atio n al -m edicine. I have had ev ery com plaint th a t the d io x in people have had e x cep t I w o n 't comment on im potence. I f e e l t i r e d , I g et i r r i t a b l e , I fo rg e t th in g s , I haven* t had c h lo ra c n e ; and how do you d i s a s s o c i a t e t h e n o n - s p e c i f i c com plaint from the d a ily p ain s o f liv in g and where d o e s i t g e t t o t h e p o i n t w h e r e y o u s a y , ray G o d , s o m e body reco g n izes th a t th is s it u a ti o n is la rg e r than i t should b e. So the re c o g n itio n o f the problem and then the re s o lu tio n of the problem -- There a re no c le a rc u t touchstones. I t 's not lik e a tr a f f ic lig h t th a t goes f r o m g r e e n t o r e d i n a m a t t e r o f a s e c o n d . We c a n ta lk and s o rt of h y p o th esiz e in g e n e r a l i t i e s , b u t i t ' s v e ry d i f f i c u l t to be v e ry s p e c i f i c o r to t r y to g ive you exam ples w ith o u t g e t t i n g down to th e c o n c r e te d e t a i l s plus th e in fo rm a tio n t h a t ' s known p lu s th e f a c t th a t over the th ir ty y ears, having g otten out of gradua te sch o o l j u s t l a s t month t h i r t y y e a rs a g o , t h a t th e sta n d a rd s, the concept of s a fe ty has changed. I t i s n ' t the d e f i n i t i o n of w h a t we a r e t r y i n g to do h a s changed. I t ' s been g r e a t l y ex p an d ed . The c o n c e p t o f s a f e ty in clu d e s such th in g s as a s t h e t i c s , n o t only be clean and h e a lth y , but the sm ell v a lu e s. Years ago : J A M E S MAY R E P O R T I N G S E R V I C E l 67 1 2' *3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 9 20 21 22 23 24 25 d o n ' t d e a l w i t h th e p h y s i c a l exam s o f p e o p le a n d we don*t c o n ta c t n o rm ally the p la n t p e rso n n e l. But somebody has to have cognizance of a problem and then i t would be c a l l i n g in o th e r p e o p le f o r r e s o l u t i o n o f i t . Q The h y p o t h e t i c a l X o u t l i n e d f o r you you a g re e was o f s u f f i c i e n t m agnitude to j u s t i f y the a l l - o u t e f f o r t you ta lk e d a b o u t? A Yes. I f you had 200 em ployees comp la in in g of a c o n d itio n , somebody ought to look a t i t . Q Now, in a d d i t i o n t o , p e r h a p s , d e c i d ing w hat o u g n t to be done to c o r r e c t a s t r e s s s i t u a t i o n , u sin g your d e fin itio n of s tr e s s , are th ere follow up program s, fo r exam ple, Like, m edical m o n ito rin g th a t w ould come w ith in th e p u rv iew o f th e t o x i c o l o g i s t or in d u stria l hygienist? A Not in the purview of the to x ic o lo g is t. One w o u l d a t t e m p t t o s e t u p som e p r o c e d u r e s o r c o n t r o l or m o nitoring to see w hatever the c o n d itio n s were th a t those were capable of o p e ra tin g s a fe ly under those cond i t i o n s . . The n a tu r e of th e m o n it o r i n g w ould d epend on t h e s u b s t a n c e a n a t h e a b i l i t y t o m o n i t o r . One c a n n o t p u ll o ff a s h e lf an a n a l y t i c a l method fo r ev ry chem ic a l and b io lo g ic a l flu id of the a i r , o r what have you, b u t some e f f o r t s h o u ld be made to i n s u r e t h a t th e new c o n d itio n s were being m et. J A M E S MAY R E P O R T I N G S E R V I C E I ( 1 Q And in c o n d i t i o n s t h a t w ould in v o lv e 2 a ree^poaure to some d e g r e e ,, d o es t h a t c o n d i t i o n c a r r y 3 w i t h i t a n e c e s s i t y f o r some m e d ic a l m o n ito rin g ? 4 A I t h in k t h a t w ould depend on w h at 5 th e r e e x p o s u r e w ould b e . The n a tu r e o f th e r e e x p o s u r e 6 as w e ll as the chem ical or the m a te ria ls to w hich the 7 re e x p o su re was o c c u rrin g . 8 Q But t h a t 's som ething t h a t's a re c o g 9 nized- ste p to take in your d i s c i p li n e cr in the d i s c i 10 p l i n e o f i n d u s t r i a l h y g i e n e ? . 11 A , I t ' s o n e w a y o f a p p r o a c h i n g t h e s u b j e c t . 12 I h a v e a l i t t l e d i f f i c u l t y w i t h s a y i n g a r e c o g n i z e d s t e p 13 a s s u c h , b e c a u s e t h e r e a r e , a s f a r a s I k n o w , n o t e x t b o o k s ' 14 a n d n o s t a n c a r d s s e t o u t t h a t t h i n g s h a v e t o b e d o n e 15 t h i s w a y o r t h a t w a y . T h e r e a r e l a r g e e l e m e n t s o f 16 j u d g m e n t t h a t g o t h r o u g h a l l o f t h e s e s t e p s . 17 MR. CALWiiLL: C h a r l i e , l o o k a t t h i s f 18 document h e r e . I t ' s a 1382 document. I 19 assume you want t o -make the satiie o b j e c t i o n 20 . on i t . 21 MR. L O V d : . Y e s . I w o u l d m a k e t h e 22 same o b je c tio n to i t , 23 MR. CALWiLL: L e t ' s m a r k i t a n d I ! 11 24 in tr o d u c e i t , you make th e o b j e c t io n . 25 Q (3y Mr. C a lw e ll) D r, L e v in sk a s, I --- -- * ---- J A M E S MAY R E P O R T I N G S E R V I C E 9 \ t1 1 2 i 3 4 5 6 7 3 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 13 19 *i oCN 21 22 23 24 25 i ............... . w an t to hand you what*s been marked P l a i n t i f f s 1 E x h i b i t 337 (Monsanto #8324400 and #8324401). MR. LOVE: We would o b j e c t t o the i n t r o d u c t i o n and use o f w h at's been marked for evidence as P la in t if f s 1 Exhibit 337, which be ars Monsanto 1 . 13. numbers 8324400 and the secono page bearing Monsanto I.D . number 8 3 2 4 4 0 1 , on t h e b a s i s i t was g e n e r a - tec pursuant to the incident lit ig a t io n . MR. CATd2 l . 1 L : I a s s u n t *.*o u 1r e g o i n g co i n s t r u c t him n ot to answer any q u e s tio n s ab'-ut the document. M ? . l - ' M / E ; Y e s , I am. a T (Cy Mr. CaI've 11) Low, one more l i t t l e a r e a , D o c t o r , and I t h i n k we w i l l be t h r o u g h . We t a l k e d e a r l i e r a bout your u n d e r s t a n d i n g t h a t h r . !:us k i n d 1$ s t u d i e s were ^ne a the .-rue -.1th the LMlK s t u d y p e r t a i n i n g t o the IMtro p o p u l a t i o n . Do you r e - member t h a t ? A I n s o f a r as I know, tho.*t a r e i d e n t i c a l . Q hex-, have you been f^adr- aware o f a n y o f l r . Sus k in d 's co n clu sio n s or r e s u l t s from those s t u d i e s 1 A I have heard general d is c u ssio n about them. I 'v e not seen nor read the report. Q Do you know i f t h e r e i s in f a c t - - J A M E S MAY R E P O R T I N G S E R V I C E k 1 You u n d e rs t a n d what a m o r b i d i t y s t u d y i s ? 2 *; -A Y e s . 3 Q And was i t your u n d e r s t a n d i n g t h a t 4 Dr. 'Suskind was g o i n g t o do what may be termed a mor 5 b i d i t y s t u d y on the N i t r o p o p u l a t i o n ? A That's correct. 7 Q And was t h a t in f a c t th e same t h i n g 8 a s the OMbH s t u d y t h a t we t a l k e d a b o u t e a r l i e r ? 9 A A ; I ' v e s a i d , a s f a r a s I know t h e 10 DMSH s t u d y '.nc the Sus kind s t u d y a t the N i t r o P l a n t 11 are the sa.-T? s tur.y. M2 q Co you know I f t h e r e i t a r e p o r t 13 from Dr. "uskinci on the .morbidity st u d y ? 14 I r e a l l y am not p o s i t i v e t h a t the 15 r e p o r t i r i ' s u e d . I know t h e r e ' s been c o n s i d e r a b l e 16 d i s c u s s i o n oyar the d e l a y in h i s i s s u i n g h i s r e p o r t , 17 w h eth er i t was i s s u e d r e l a t i v e l y recent?.' I Jnr.' t know, 18 Q Have yor h e a r t t h a t i t i s or t h a t i t 19 i s n ' t or you j u s t d o n ' t know? 20 MR. L^V.b: I f you kncrA-, answer t h e 21 q u e s t i o n . I f you d o n ' t know, t e l l him you 22 con* t know, 23 A I d o n ' t know w h eth er t h e r e p o r t has 24 been i s s u e - j . 25 `3 (By Mr. C a l w e l l ) But you have been J A M E S MAY R E P O R T I N G S E R V I C E 1 p r i v y to some d i s c u s s i o n s a b o u t th e r e p o r t ? 2 . V *A I*v.e heard some d i s c u s s i o n a b o u t the 3 report. > 4 Q 0 . l \ . And have you heard a n y d i s c u s s i o n s 5 a b o u t Che r e p o r t c o n c l u s i o n s ? 6 A The r e c o l l e c t i o n I have i s t h a t e x c e o t 7 fo r the ch lo ra o n e, that there was no r e s i d u a l , no e v i 8 dence of residual injury in any of the employees. 9 m . CXi-rzu.: ^.K. Thank you, D o c to r. 10 That w i l l do i t . 11 12 13 14 15 l C e r e J . y o v i n -1r a ? 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 J A M E S MAY R E P O R T I N G S E R V I C E STATE OF ILLINOIS ) ) ss , co un ty ' oE m a d iso n ) 3 4 5 . 1 , M. JOY SPRINGER, a N o t a r y P u b l i c , d u l y 6 commissioned and q u a l i f i e d in and f o r the County o f 7 Madison, State o f I l l i n o i s , do hereby c e r t i f y that 8 pu rsua n t t o n o t i c e came b e f o r e me on th e 1 4 t h day 9 o f J u l y , 1 9 8 3 , a t th e R a d i s s o n H o t e l , Room 2 1 5 , 10 S t r e e t and C o n v e n t io n P l a z a , S t . L o u i s , M i s s o u r i , ' 11 GEORGE J. LEVINSKAS, who was by me d u l y sworn t o 12 t e s t i f y t o t h e t r u t h and n o t h i n g b u t th e t r u t h o f . 13 h i s knowledge t o u c h i n g and c o n c e r n i n g t h e m a t t e r s i n 14 c o n t r o v e r s y i n t h i s c a s e ; t h a t he was the re u p o n c a r e 15 f u l l y examined upon o a t h , and h i s e x a m i n a t i o n r e d u c e d 16 t o w r i t i n g under my s u p e r v i s i o n ; t h a t the d e p o s i t i o n 17 i s a t r u e r e c o r d o f the t e s t i m o n y g i v e n by t h e w i t 18 n e s s ; and s i g n a t u r e o f t h e w i t n e s s was n o t w a i v e d . 19 I FURTHER CERTIFY t h a t I am n e i t h e r a t t o r 20 ney nor counsel for nor r ela ted to nor employed by 21 and o f t h e p a r t i e s t o the a c t i o n i n w h i c h . t h i s d e p o 22 s i t i o n i s t a k e n ; and f u r t h e r , t h a t I am n o t a r e l a t i v e 23 or employee of any a tto r n e y or co u n sel employed by 24 the parties hereto, or fin a n c ia lly in terested in the 25 action. J A M E S MAY R E P O R T I N G S E R V I C E 1 IN WITNESS WHEKJEOF, I have h e r e u n t o s e t 2 my hand a o d a f f i x e d my n o t a r i a l s e a l on t h i s ______ 3 day of Ju ly , 1983. 4 5 6 7 N otary P u b lic w it h in and fo r the 8 County of Madison, State of I l l i n o i s . 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 1 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 J A M E S MAY R E P O R T I N G S E R V I C E k 75