Document jNj6o6xR5QkMvRjKMYvMr1DG5

*-Ur.- US.Deoonmenr of Transportanon j.* ` m TlyV, I heresy certify that the annexed 'is a true copy of a document entitled "Stenographers1 Minutes before the United States Maritime rnmitonn - Meeting in PpgarH tn--------Minimum Requirements for Industrial Health and Safety in Shipyard December 7, 8, 1942," consisting of 348 oaoes. as it apr*ar<; nn fijj in the Maritime Administration, U.S. Department of Transportation IN WITNESS WHEREOF, I have hereunto set my hand, and caused the seal of the Maritime Administration to be affixed, on trie day and year below written. Secretary Maritime Administration Washington, D.C.. October 4 79-12. Form MA-93 (Rev. 9-S2) DEFENDANT'S } EXHIBIT f HK?/STC_49 03 , IHDSX yv".. . * I . * -t~ - * J ' '.-i, *v; . | *' ; . . * ****!* *. * * * ***.,.* . .Eeaarha of Chalrsan Ring ' * ..*#* > . .` .* * ' ` .;*. * * . .' Address by Philip Drinker ' . Address by.Lt. Coadr. D. E. Carlson .'.-/Address by Dr. Bedtrtg Q.-Sohn- --------.A:; Address by Mr. John Roehe > *. `t ; * ; Address by Hr. -JaoS: tTolff . 11 5 4 27 23 43 /... Address' by. Hr. Has Easaoris ' 55 : - * l ..Discussion of Hlnlsun Standard's for -.//.Control of Health ', . ' ' ` * : * ' s; **,.'' . * *; * * * * 'J* '***, . * ' -v. Address by Ensign E. ill' Helson \ * 60 *105 ,-i Address, by Ensign Honrlch Ross and * > Denonstration of Welding 114 Address by Ensign John T- Ege, Jr, '* jr.' 126 *. ' 6-f f1/S>0m c/-/7* J>Ja-j-*-? f* ./^3_ '^./.'.^Joint aeeting of Safety Hen and Physioians 24$ ' .. rv./' /V/Addreas', by Hr/. Esdnig Euhn yV-: >* jyr.-.H25S-:* *-*Vv;>^-.y ;v :;;'^Vy ;-* v-_` /*jV' * ~r- s .* r..; i -s r.~ 'A .* r<. -- V.-i. 1 * n.> ..v.. COLLIES, Charlie, Branertrlcl: Marine Coast-. Corpw Ship building, Boileraaier Foreman, .Brunswick, Georgia .* * COLLIHS, Valter S., Delta Shipbuilding Co., Inc., ' Chairsan, Plant Labor Hanageaent Co.au 1515 Yerna Street, Rev Orleans, La. . .t COHLOH, Valter j., St. John* s "River Shipbuilding "Co.y Jacksonville, Fla. ,,` COOE, Varren A., National Conservation Bur. (and Zurich .Ins. Co.) 135 South LaSalle St., Chicago, Illinois ** .# CORD, Albert Va., Aetna Cas. 4 Surety* las. Co.) Chicago. Insp. & Eng. Dept. 120 S. LaSalle St., Chicago, Illinois CROFT, Theo., G.,*Dr.,'St. Joh^s River Shipbuilding Co., Jacksonville, Fla. . *- CORRIS, George E;, Rational Safety Council, Publicity, 20 Vacker Dr., Chicago, Illinois. * . .# . ( DALZELL, V. C., Asst. Gen. Supt., De}.ta Shipbuilding Coupany. '' DANIELS, J.V., D. S. Fidelity and Guaranty Co., Div. Safety Rep., 165 V. Jackson Bird., Chicago, IHiaoi-s. DE3XER) Tunis H.,. Ara-y Ordnance Safety 4 Security * Branch, Safety Engr., 333 S. Michigan Avenue, Chicago, Illinois..-.. .. DESJARDEU'S', Henry G., Saf-ety Engineer, Savy Department, Vanhington, D. C. '. ' BCLA3, G. .tloa-.Mgr.. Valte Butler Shipbuilders Inc., Adalnistra- '.DODtSTT, 'H.';R.V'e A S Restaurants,. Electrio Boat Co., 'Groton,; Connecticut. ....- .. DR-lliAr.Rt PhiT? Dr., Departaent of Industrial Hygiene, School, of Public Health, Harvard E., Boston, Mass. 'B33.John F.r Jr/j Ensign)' 55 Shatuck St., Boston, Hass. . ELSBT,' ;Chan. H., Safoty Engineer, Employers Mutual .* Liability-Ins. Co.-of blgoonain, -1200 Empire- Building, Trrnfran. H* flCOUCla. .*' ' . ZWEBTZ,-C. G.,` Safaty Engineer, Kanitovoo Shipbuilding Co., Hanltowoc, Wisconsin . .' . .' FAIL, A.. K. Alabana Dry D. & Ship. Co., Mobile, Alabana ` 7LUXER, Dr. C. B., Yainwright' Shipyard, Panaaa City, Florida (The Travelers).--------- . ' ` 1 ; . j: -j ' ] I I j| FRAZIEH,' Hal C., Safety Engineer, Houston Shipbuilding Corporation, Houston, Texas * . * . . . ` ' . : i | | GARFIELD, S. H*,' Dr., Rlehaond Shipyards, Vancouver - J * Eaiser Co. ' . ,: GILES, Villi an P., Dr., Eheea Hfg. Co., Providence, : . Ehode Island* ..... ; * .' ' i GOLDSTIBE, Edgar H., California Shipbuilding Corporation 1 ^* * t .** : GHAHAH, S. D., Delta Shipbuilding Co., Safety Director, 1303- Short Street, Heir Orleans, La. ' . ij ij1 GHAHAM,. Valter E., Capt., US Harltine Commission, Ee.gionnl Industrial Advisor, Hev Orleans, La. * . GHAX, H* D'., Halt or Butler Shipbuilders, Inc., Exec* V- President .. , .!- . > ' - * ! ! | GHEEHLEE, Captain, Houston Shipbuilding Corporation HAAS, Tozey D., M, D*.,;Ain* Dry Doch & S. B. Co-., Mobile, Alabaaa . ^ HAG31AHH, ' IEVIH L./'Taapa' Shipbuilding Co., Taapa, Fla. I 1iI EAE303, J.^G...Labor Management, Southeastern Shipbuilding 'Corp., .Savannah, Ga.. .. ; ....... \ ]. HAIDES,f tgoore- Dry Dochlng Co*., JLoot* Supt. Hoc. ; L.HOGGAST, A'. C., Labor-Coordinator, Ore Shipbuilding Corp. ; HOLMSIOG,; Otto S.,. Senior Construction Engineer, Eaployers Eutuals Liability-Inn. Co., of tTio*, Hilanobae, Wisconsin. . HHHLlESS,* V. 'V. 'Employers Liability Asa.* Corp., - Safety Engineer, 175- V. Jachsoa Blvd., . Chicago^ Illinois. I 1-D HUTCHIHSOH, A. X., St. Johns Rivor Shipbuilding Co., Jackaonvilla,' Tin* . * ** . *.\ ? . ... . * <* * JOSES; X. G.', Safoty Engineer, Southeastern Shipbuilding Corp.'f Savannah, Ga. . ' '. _* ** . ' * j JOSES, 'j. .Von Jr.,*. Electric Boat Co., Groton, Conn.* . * > * ' . .* " ` ' * " " --- - '* .. , JOHSOH, Bheea Hfg. Co.,` Providence, Rhode--Island.. 0*9 * * _ | JOHHSOH,* Franklyn V.,* Oregon Shipbuilding Corporation, Portland, Oregon, and falser Co. Inc. Safety Engineer. XAXE, Dave, laiser Co., Inc., Edmond Shipyard #3, Biohnond, Calif. . *. . * t *' . * '' - * XEEPEH, H. Dean, Luaberaenla Kutual Cas. Co., 4750 Sheridan Ed., Chicago, Illinois. %**.* * * *. * IESDALL, Carter, Bethlehen Steel Co,,^ Bethlehen, Pa., Safety'Engineer. * . .t * . # ^ . ' EOSSOBIS, H.' D., D. S. Bureau of Labor, Statistics ' .j 1 j j | ' ' ; * ; SUES, Hedtrig, Dr*., Hat. Society Prevention Blindness, 112 Blahach Ave., Eassond, Indiana. . - t * * * .* *' ' * ' ; : . LAHIE, A.- J.f Supt. Engineering. Dept., Pacific Ind-eantty ' Co., 621 S. Hope St., Los Angeles, California. . ` ` . . * . I { - LSSTSH, D. B-,' Great Lakes Eng. tforka Safety Director, i 1330 *S. LaSalle, Chicago * .. -! LOCIE,-. Thoaaa L., Hetr Eng-. Div. Hgr* Eng. Dept., .* ' Aaerican Mutual Liability Ins. Co., 142 Berkeley St., Boston, Bass* _ r. * : : : ZIcCSXj D;'A*, H*'D.'Liberty Mutual Ins. Co., Medical ; E38earchr"; Industrial Dlv.,. Booton, Maas-. v ,, - ScXca,'' C Si H.T?B.j>'`175/ff.-Jachson Travelers Ins. Co., Shnbcygak,'DTaccanin.' - ' : ' r. *.' -HATHEHSOH, ?'. H.; Safety Engineer, national Safety Cstmail*. * Chicago', *. Illinois _ .. .. ' '* * *' X. .. .* *4 ?* . . -j f ' 1-12 XA2HEV, Clareaoe, Karin Ship, Calif., Labor Management #; * . EEHAJTSX, C. H., Industrial Hygienist, Mine Safety Appliances, Pittsburgh, Pa* ' i HERRETT, A. H.Gulf Shipbuilding Ave., Kobile, Alabama \0 * ' _ ______ 4. KILLER, Lawrence C., Safety Direotor, California . Shipbuilding"Corporation----- *----------------------------------------------------------- , ' . - - ; HOOHE, Robert S., Todd-Hoboken, Dry.Docks, Hoboken,H.- J. . ** . HOREX, C. T., Rheea Hfg. Co., Providence, Rhode Island. ' * *' . XULLIH, David P., South Portland Shipbuilding Corporation. *. * #' SEILSpH, A. S., St.. John1 a River Shipbuilding Co., Jacksonville, Ha. ' . .' . ; : HELSOH, X. V., Ensign, D.S.5.R. 55 Shattuck St., Boston, Massachusetts * - *. . . HORIOH, Jack, Rhoeao Hfg. Co., Providence, R. I. (Labor JL.F.L.) . ! Qt C03HSLL, John. P. Karine Ship Corporation, Labor Coordination . . : 'OLDS, Harvey, Richmond Shipyards, Ch.', Labor - Hanagement Coma* * .. . * \ : . . '! : OSfSJS.,^ R. Representing C; if. Eliason,Regional ': *'r*C* o aatr-*u*ctiov.`a"...^, Office * . , % Oak. law n d*, California * i * ' - * * PACZLED; H. E.'r Los'Angoles Shipbuilding^ Drydock `]; Corporation ' '' ' PARfSDHE^KER,: C/'JL. American Optical' Company PEARS, Eugene S.'^ 'Adjuster, Aetna Gas, & Sur. Co. if.'..POLSEX,; C.':"ir.."- a'.r Hed/Director Pacific Indemnity' Co.,- 'Canaol. Stael Ship Bldg. Dlr*,Loa Angoleo. Ship Bldg., i .Tfosiarn. Pipe. & Stael Shipbuilding Dir* .. | . PRICE,' B./'Joseph, uJ D*. nodical Dirootor, Gulf Ship- building Corp*,, Habile, Alabama . . ` RELLER, Louis S.^'The Ingalls Shipbuilding Corp., Pascagoula, Hiss., Asst. to Executive Tice Prea. * HISCS, 7. E;, Dr., Hed.` Dir. Oregon Shipbuilding Corporation,- Portland, Oregon. ------ - ----------- ,* ,< . * HEIR, . J, Dr. Delta Shipbuilding Co., Plays. Charge Of 1st Aid Station 3613 Hap oilan Ave., Hev Orleans,. La. RIHG, Daniel S., Direotor Shipyard Labor Relations, O'. S Saritine Commission, Washington, D. C. ' ROCHE, John'K., Safety Consul* - - Commission. - - . , . ROSS, Moruich, Ensign, 55 She SCHHOBL, 6-eorge 7., Alabama D Hobile, Alabama. ` ' SCHHAKE3BERG, George, - Todds E 'Brooklyn, H. X. # *.*. . * SBCRSST, Trod S. Personnel ,D1 Co* -- ' .. , - . SES7, Thoa. R., AflBt. Dir. Er liability Cafl. Co.,- Atlanta, > - SESSIONS,' R. I., Li out. Corner, (HC) TJ. S. Havy Red. Officer for Industrial" Hygiene A Hedicine, Horfoli . HaTy Xaria, `Portsmouth, Virginia . * '. SE32IOOR,. W. E., Liberty Hutual* Insurance Co., Boston, Sana.,. 7.- P. Chief Eng. Safety, Eng. Dept. ' ' ****** ; SIELSX,' H.Ingall Shipbuilding Co., Pascagoula, Hiss. r-; Labor 'Sanageaent Coma. Representing Labor A. 7.L. SXHHOTT, Edmund T."`, SO St. John St. j Reru Xor3c City, C..'B*--Blach Jr*. Cor?., Todd Shipyarda Inc. . . - ~-..r -r;-^ -> a ' ? '' v : -- i'. . 31X2, Eerbcrt .A-','. Tcdd--Johnsda Dry Docis, Ecu Orlsans, Lau*- ^-.V " ' ^v.r.; /; '' SEIT2,.. Earlo, Gulf Shipbuilding CCoorrppooi ra` ti`on ' ` * Sl3 J *T H1 ^ ^ ** nn#sl< J J <J+* * **T > -- .> am T1 :` . ,. 1-G SHIDEfl, Boron D., Marine Ship Corp., Sanallt, Calif. ' SPENCER, Dr'. L. C. Hed. Dir. Southeastern' Ship Building Corporation, Kao Evoy Ship Building Corp., SaTannah, Ga. SPOFFORD', V. E., Regional Dir. Const., 310 South Michigan, Chicago, Illlnola , STERLING^ -L> H.,-Adjuster,--Travelers Ins. Co-.r-^53_. Inauranoe Ex. Bldg., Chicago, Illlnola v. . - . ._ STRIPLING, 7. C., Ala. Dry Doci & Ship Bldg. Corp.* Safety Dir. ... ^ . : *; SMART, Haraon 7. 73.ce Pres., E & S Rest*. - Industrial Food.- Crafts Serving Electrio Boat Co., New London, Connecticut . * * . * 1 < *..... ., * TALLMAH, Ma., E. Safety Dir., Mo Clcskey & Conpany, Hoohers Paint Shipyard, Tanpa, Florida and Houston, Texas. . .. ' * . . . : ^ / i, TM.Ls<R, Jr* M. R. Lt * Csdr. XT. S. . District*Industrial Relations Officer, 106 Administration Building, Great Latea, HI. ` . . TERRI, Jr.'Mallace I*., Hoore Dry Doch Co., Oakland, California, D3Lrcotor of Safety. .. MAEEKAN,' J. R* ^aat. to Pres. Southwestern Shipbuilding Corp., Savannah, Ga*. y,\ * ' MALL,`Jr.Safety Eng. Brunswick Marine Const. ;Corpi, Brunswick, Ga* *' MATSON, A. L., Chalman Labor Mgnt* Costa.., Richmond Shipyard #1, lalser Shipyard ' * . *. ' t *' j* , *c *!* ** ', */(*v^ . * * ** * - NE3ZEL, Herbert, Acting Industrial Advisor, Haritino Ccaaiasion,;Chicago, Illinois ' y :` ,-V .'y.'r* --- * . - MRELAN, T.'j.;-Supervising Const. Eng. Travelers Ins. ; Co*, Eartford,. Conn- .. ** , s- * : -'-'--'.VVy- S" J . * v` ' -SHITS, E^'E., Sun`Shipbuilding Co., Cheater, ,Pa. Safoty . Sag. - Por* Dir*. - k'-- VI . -v- '."'* - NINFRES^ .2* S.,_ Pennsylvania Shipyards, Toxaa ./ .\ ** * .4 * ' ' ' :L * V ' Ino.r Beaunoat, ' \. - 1-S Y0L7F, Jack, Supervisor Shipyard Training, Dir. * S Shipyard Labor. Halations U. } Yaahington, D. C- I % . , S. Harltine '` Commission, * 4( YOODELL, Todd, Oregon Shipbuilding Corp. Portland, . Ore*, Hgr. Ins* & Safety *. , ` _. , ' VAH DORE3, *Y. 3., - California Shipbuilding Corp., ^ Vllnlngton. Calif/ ' ` ;' >.. . i \ `1 .} 1 ,j ... *.; * r'** *'* r*r'V . - .* i. v . , * r , - . * ... v.-x;. w'i* /. * *'* ... -** , * *-* . . \ \** * ^ , . .. : V:* ^^5 - --v:JT;s i ' CHAIRMAN RING: How aa. we start off, I guess we better ! ' ' . ' ' , i know who wo are. Hy name la Ring. I ain with the Maritime : .. . . i Commission, in charge ef the shipyard labor relations, and a _ ; vI part of the function of the .shipyard labor -relations is that ' * '' ** * . '* I of .safety *md health_ programs for contractors-of the Maritime Commission in the rarloirs'"yards-all' over -the-'cquntryi-- j i 4 : This- conference is being oalled Jointly by the Maritime Commiaaion and the Nary in the interest of promoting- standard ized programs to develop at least* minimum requirements for the . *' ' *. .' * ,,. . i| `two* safety and health, for the million people who will be in f . * .* the shipyards after the first of the year. ' * * * - ' . iI ! ji . The invitations went forth to all of the contractors in " ** . * * . * * 'li| shipyards on the Atlantic, Pacific, Great Lakes, and Gulf | ... .` i Coasts* and a response has been received which indicates . *' m t. j. i` that there will be a far larger attBndanc-e her-e as the day \ goes on .than now. 4 te received a number of wires this mom- | V :.r- .I Ing indicating "that`trains are .late, planss have been delayed, 'and'that `those who are. intending to attend the conference will be delayed.,/.^./,-^ V~V:.; `J -...-jv/.te are "afraid, to hold things up any longer on account of. .`those ^^th`transportation delays,! 'and felt if we were, going `to.get.'anywhere/we. might as well start now and let tha late- 312 e \ ) L been cade with production in the fast and growing expansion of ell of the plant3, too little attention had been ceid to the natters involving the health and safety of the employee ',?e have had towns, end sizable towns, that have grown to double their capacity, and to treble their capacity, during the last- year, and we have had yards that have mushroomed o- to such a degree that in the. rush and bustle of getting pro duction going and putting the work in on the million tons c: shipping we expect to get in thi3 year, that possible the features of protecting the health of the men who are working in the yards and tneir safety have. not been emphasized on a standardized basi3 and on a uniform basis as they should hav been. ' Accordingly, the Maritime Commission and the Navy de cided that they would have a survey made in which facts woul be gathered whereby we could present to the Industry and those who are principally interested standards for the ob servation of rules governing the health of men working in th yards and their safety. As a result cf that, the services of Mr. Drinker, who is the head of the Public Health, and a group of men from the Bureau of Medicine and Surgery, of the Havy, were detailed to take a tour in typical yards all over the country to find out what the facts were. We felt that before planning on any rules we had better get down to bed rock and knew exactly what conditions exist. ~ E l a They made this tour and made specific records and re- . ports on eaoh yard, transmitting the same to the yard for ' their guidance, la addition to that, they were at all times * . *w , i collecting data which would he in -the nature of a common de- nominator-aa_fjr as everyone was concerned, so that at the. = conclusion of the tour Mr. Drinker and* his associates-felt' that we would have enough facts at hand to be able to presen to the industry, through the Maritime Commission and Navy, ir minimum standards as to the requirements for the protection > * * . * * . * , * of the`health of the men in the yards* ' . ' . . * . * . . -During this morning, Hr. Drinker - will present to you i- * those minimum standards for health. At the same* time Mr. i ' 'I . vTohn Bochfc of the Hational Safety Council, also made a tour * . .. .> ! i of the principal shipyards in the oountry from the standpoint of safety/' and he has developed, a. number of facts which have ; -..led him to believe tha-trwe- can now ha*e a sufficient factual ; \ Vv-J". '. ' '- j 'basis''to prescribe minimum standards so far as the safety... ; / factors'in the yards are concerned. ' --W ' | . " ..-'.In- addition to that. Hr. Jack Wolf, who is in charge of ! . ^training for..the Maritime Commission, has- also made.a number | '--`of., tours and he has.some very decided ideaa.7wi.th respect, to : ' - the inculcation of the`'health hasards~an'd'the safety perils _ : ..'0il .... V-.;ia. r'*' the min da '-C, of'sen .';* i-'/j--* who are`just entering-$ha . industry. - *. \ He- ' t- - --.V- ''- D r ,. j and green, into the industry, one of the very first things \ ` ' . g that he gets along with the training as far as the shill of j .the craft that he is going to work 1a is concerned, is a - knowledge of what he Bust do, and what he must observe to . protect his own health and to protect his. own safety. . :- Xf you ~get- that "to the-men when`they''are Just coming In ' the yard, why then you have started right at the 'foundation ' *\ ** to build up a respect for the health and safety program. - : - : Xou will notice, among other things hanging around here^ a lot of empty suits which are designed for the use of women' '' - *: . '. *. '! . * coming into industry. ` We all know from recent reports that . there is going to be a tremendous influx of women in the in dustry, specialised attention therefore is being given along \\ . .'***. * **,,.* * .* . ** * **.V * . * ... those lines independent from the line that this- conference 'jj will proceed upon. However, we have felt in view of the fact u ' u . ' ' *: :' . . i: " " . the manufacturers have moved toward, the production of oloth.es . -v-r. . * * * y * ** '* ` which, will be safe-for women to wear in the industry, you i : : ' sight like to see some. Accordingly, arrangements are being' i;`-Bade, and`our socuta are now out to obtain some human figures ;0t. attractive form' that can sake these enpty clothes that are I ;;.v; hanglag ca' the.' rack a "little more deleatable so far as thhe : -*** *. * rr**r' * * S -V * ; ' *" - ** !*. \ V'r.iT-V-'* wgir ai>-a "eannemar?. * anfl- 11v .* .. rsm nilT Chicago to be wearing' ea- > . ; . . , 0 3 '' .* * ` e jj tores of the clothing will he presented- / I was at first a little afraid of such a program, be cause it atruofc ae that maybe the wearer of the clothes and * .*. .... . * , ` ' their appearance night detract from the concentration on the *4 clothes themselves if-we did such a thing. However, I waa overruled, and Hr. Roche especially here said, "You da not ' T *' t t .E I erpect these fellows who are pretty hard boiled and who have = ** . * . ^ I 4 come from all sections of the country, to become very en- j V. ` . ** thuiiaatio and pay very much attention to a lot of empty .. 9 " * '* *. * * clothes? Tou have to put those clothes over some very at-- *' ; ' . '\ * . ' | .tractive forms before they will really give their attention j i j! to it,* and accordingly arrangements are being made, as I i. Is - * 1 *, ' h' av.e. said.* , to . h a.v. e some ,, s.ort- of a. safety clothes* model . s how .v. ` . ; tomorrow afternoon. Tie will hear more about that later. ; *. ' . ***- . Howt.\ one of the. very serious things that we are con- ' " . '*** "-v ^ "U " fronted with-is the fumes from welding machines,' and there t. 1 will be a demonstration on that for each group, one ffcor tho sei " .-'J: - ! you who are spec if.io ally dedicated to the hhee*alth, side of ; it, and one for-those who are speqiflcally from the safety `` will J ' *r * 3 * :} : : . concerned with the problems that are involved. , . ,, ' -I want to weloome all'of you here* an<l I want to tell v . | " 'you that I think that this la the first time that the ship -* building Industry on the eoope as broad as this has mowed . * . ~ ---- ..r * * ***..* . r * * * * . * * j --directly into'cooperation and focuaed'ltaclf and its-*atten- ' . 'tion on two very specific problems that they have. **, ! -i ' 1 * l Tou want to remember that it was on this day. Just a year ago that the blow cane at Pearl Harbor. The thing that'left -I * us . stunned .% for,, a little . while; the thing that no . one ever . . . * . . .^ * '. ;* I . expected would occur* and although we have gone along during ' ' " ! the lact year, striving here and striving there, most of us ! "* * * . . *s .' were -doing .it with our eyes right on the Job before us, in ' ** ' "V ' * * . *- *- i ^order to develop things, and it is only when you stand today, a year from that day', and look back over the year that has ; ' Just* passed!, and realize what a tremendous Job that the 'ship yards'of the nation have accomplished. ... ... j ^ 'Our boys,to the extent of. four millions,.' and 2 Imagine 1 "V '< ... .; -.;'.that there are. very few of us here who'has not one who is close'to-us,`are out in the uniform ready to protect the i . * . - ` Ail*-" n." *'**.*' ' \ ***> ? 1* * * N * * V . >* . as ^ tilth that In view, we are dedicating this conference to the purpose of pronoting the greatest individual, efficiency * in' shipyards throughout the country. Our whole objective is . ~` 1 baaed upon production, because everything else is subsidiary , '' . ' , . to that, but we must -remember that production in this struggle ' . ' ' . la something of a' long-range nature. ________ ___________ " ~ .' < \ ' `. * ** *j This is not going to be a short struggle that we are ; *.\ * `j in, as everyone realises what odds we are up against, and if. we are going to be in a long drawn out straggle we have got i to have men who are physioally fit and we have got'to'keep ' them physically fit, and we have got to keep them from the '* * t '` * i perils that will impair their productivity. 1 * i \ . -I again want to 'say that you are welcome here. I hope . n\ ; . . . -v . - . .. 1 ' ;: that'we will have an opportunity to meet eaah other person- ' ally, and discuss individual problems as we go along, but ; '1 '..time -with, us, especially- in these days, is very short. We j .'hope to wind this conference up tomorrow, evening, and as for'. . the general program at the present time, I think I will Just' sketch that now. '"- ' . ;' . . - ... .: .' * V '**-*.. - *F ir- st' ,yo. uv will hear .f.rom Ur. Drink. er w* -it h\ respect to th , /_ ' I ' J. *' ^ * .'* ' ' ., y1 * , ^fr^^:^^;V:,aininca standards Vso far _aa health .is - concerned. '. ... - ;.'Derti -you will hear from hr. John Roche with resweat to; . r.S . ' '.- j ' minimum 'standards-' so - far- as./safety is concerned, and next you ~i-V: 7--'mill hear froa.hr. -Jaak. ITo-lf. with re sweet- to the training' - ' Then, we would welcome a woz*d from the representatives -i of the Na.ry, Com mander C_a rlson* and Hr._ D_esjardin. es. and ' ii then I" think the tine 'will he ripe to separate for the after ' noon session into two groups, where you yourself oan study , ' what Is being presented to you*and find out if in the papers' - that hare been distributed 'to-you-.anything is- whacky, r-any-^- it J thing is off the beam, and "let us all sit.down together *and ' . *. . .j :5 work out for ourselves from the wealth of experience and ; knowledge that'we have-here along these specialized-lines ; standards that will be ones of'integrity, that will be'prao-; .... j ' -1 tical ones, that'will be ones which will result in a promo- : i jl- tion. and accumulation of production, and when we have done - ... a * jK `that, all-collectively, we ought to oome together here to'l ti: morrow morning on a final agreement on the consensus of this I? - j conference with'respect' to thos6 standards. ;:*J : . that is done, it-is intended that the Haritime', -j Commission' and the'_ Navy Department promulgate those to. all | . .-Cjj.of the yards,* and ask that in .the interest' of efficient pro-'' ' duetion, those-`standards be adhered to. We; ui-li have'an or-- . \` * - - '*' "* * _ * '** **-**--' ` :  -V do hope that we can act In the role of coordinators and ad- : * risers, He want to he there to help you do that Job. % j Now, in the very first place, we want it understood that * ' ` # _* ' J the standards will be the product of your doing, your own ' * .. . . / i conference right here. If all those who cone who hare* been ' ----- ' . * -* t invited* we will hare representatirea here" from the Safety "I * .... # i Department, from the Hedlcal Department, from management, ! from labor, and in that way we will hare a*true cross picture ` . ii of those who hare the principal duty of really building these ships for us. ., . j t How, tomorrow morning then it is hoped that we will be j *. ' . . . *f . * ' . # i: in a position to come to some agreement on what the standards *. _ should be. Tomorrow afternoon we hope that we will be able i .. | to display to you the most advanced styles so far as clothes : . . . i* i for women are concerned, and as soon as definite arrangements ' ' ..* .. - j ar.e made on that, we will let yon know. ' . . | ;' * .. ! . rroa now on, I.think that we might as well get down to j .work. If'any of you hare not got copies of hr. Drinker's or j Mr, RocheTs data, they% will available for you at the regis tration desk outside. .1 'also want to say that everyone here . ' ::i. . .. -I ' ; | will register, so that, we will- have a record of the attendance '.'-%uin.,-'I wank to; thank-you very `much 'indeed for your j attendance here-.and I want-.to wish you all success in the i .speedy and efficient foraulatioa .of these formulas for the j protection, 'of-the* health-and safety of workers- in our ship-- '1 *11- r yard3, because, after all. It la going to be jour Job. Thank n . i| . you all very much, Indeed. ' (Applause.) . , ' - ' * ij How, I want to present to you Ur. Drinker, t&o will talk '4 . . * * ji- to you on the minimum standards for industrial health in 5' . .. .; ; ! i shipyards. ' " " . ; . UR. PHILIP DRIH3ER: Have you gentlemen--all copies of __\ . *' - i this .minimum standards. for the oon trol of health in contract I: shipyards of Maritime Commission and Navy? i " ' Horn, it will be Impossible for this to be the suocess ` *i we hope 'for'the conference unless you in such brief time as I .we have, and we are going to designedly hare plenty, unless : * /* . * i you mill around and get to know each other and inter-visit. ' . . ' .* * *i !Cou come f-romall corners of the country, and many of you hare v\ * .. ' 1' * . . *: . not met eaoh other, and we wish you would throw formality to * the winds and Just `inter-visit and have spme unofficial talks ss? . * . . * * about anything at all to do with the things that bring us # .V '* here* "v V'- .-v .. ' i j [ t- - T7111 yoa turn first to Section A, page 1, and I do not intend to rea'd all of this in detail, 'but I do hope that those who are especially concerned with the medical end of . thin* "wili. take tise'to' go over it roughly now, and then in ..-detail this: afternoon, and this evening. ' . - .12 Roman numerals, we suggest that substations for first aid be ' within * distance of about 400 yards for anybody, so that a , man'would, in an eaergenay Job, not have to be taken further . * * * , * * ** * ' ..than .that,or- If he could walk, he would not have to be re- . quested to go farther...than that- himself. ' * " i j' - ..'`.We do`not wish to Imply in this that'we" intend to be j .4 " " arbitrary and go out and measure the distance. TTe certainly do not aspect to do that. ' ' * .- .-The doctors and nurses and ambulance facilities are ' more'or-less according" to'the accepted practices, and I think in aaajr yards they are already established. If the yard ] beats .these suggestions that naturally is no cause for Tin- ; . 'favorable comment, tfe favor it very warmly. j On page 2-A, one of the first faults that we found with the.maritime yards, - and it is not true of all of them, - j !:;= v: TTbtrtr of. some of them, and that was the records and forms that' 1 I-':' * r ` . / j- ;- r?*' came! 'to ' the Haritime Commission. ' i thought that _ those reo- : . ..'ords and forms were very poor, and they are being changed. : VT .'?**; 'V:*:V'?>. V ***? g ' . t ' i. * ^ m' ` . -- * " -- *~ - ~ u i!j !i i to bring bin to a doctor, naturally. ; . ! 1 Iten 1 ia a fora authorizing the workman to report to .* .' * .s i ' the medical department for examination dr treatment issued by a foreman or leading man or other supervisor. This shall j !i t -iaheu~time of --issue',arrivsl-fft* diap-ensary,--dlscharge -from~dis-* pensary and return to work. ' ` " : ' .* ' 'i . . l In many cases, now there are no records ia the yards of ' ' .. .| men -oho go to dispensaries for minor ailments. They cause ,# * loss of time, and ia most oases we have no. way of showing it, 5 i 1 and no way of comparing with another yard for loss of time . on any such basis. ' That is not true in every plaoe, but it ' ** . is true in a great many -of them'. . * ' ! 1 % The 'filing of records with the medical department and ` . the safety department in many cases ia not good at all, and : . it would, .- b* e . a- d.e; cid..e. d, advantage of all to see '+tha' t* that- is ' \ . good. . *; ,*. . 'I ; ' } v'.:;We'would like to have the safety and medical departments .to have the' same records of any accident, injuries or ilL- ... ............................ . . . ' ness, and"that they have that information given to them I* *' . '. ' , ' promptly. .'.AV- ./ V;T'." j ) 1 ;ht' be does ........................ y- :. [: '1 1 .-'Vnot mean on' examination in advanoe of hiring necessarily* bu` ..i^whon n ,maa `Is hirsd- ha should be examined- to see that he is- ^ :j?u1r in 'tho' Job for x which' fc- is phyaically suited, and not on /O':'.i v :*j ..'VO 14. <e for which he la physioally unsuited, 'which may do hia harm or harm to those with whoa he worha. We. feel that periodic . . * ' . ,,* check examinations should be given to the men In all Jobs ` * \ I*. ' . , ! j where the nen ar< &olng something which la hazardous or which ' la. a,..ciaky. Job, either to the men themselves or to others. I'. have reference~to~crane operators, locomotive and hoisting and '` portable engineers. ,* '. " ` It certainly should have periodic 'physi- * . ii oal check-ups, and now in many yardar.they do not have that. We urge In the' strongest possible' terms that there be periodic '' i chech examinations to men In Jobs In whioh there Is a definite * * **..*** *! health risk suoh as sand blasting, paint spraying, and cer- : * . 'i ' tain types of radium and x-ray work. " item 3 'la that special examinations, suoh x-ray, nsero- i .-\.. . logic and urinalyses shall be given la the- individual case as indicated, and in accordance with local needs.. H-ow, special 5 - examinations such as x-ray, serologic, and urinalyses would 5 ' 3a V. *..=.-*. ' * i, ` |. ..be ashed by a doctor in any normal establishment., .and we.be-- jlleve it should-be-here, -but we do not think there is a<zy. ! ' ...... " .need for us to-give any cut and'dried scheme "that you should-' V . ' .... a` .. . \ ...-'follow* * -Shey `will vary with the place, and we think it would '-O.' ' 7 be ahindranca' rather than a 'halp- for un. to-' detail. the pro-- -*i\v ceciuLsrsi - ta be-'fcllowed everywhere*.' 'a ** *.*. %V. ~-V\V-v* . 7 ,*:. /I* 7.--;.v <- 1 * ' ';v'j.* *;T : T ' **' * ' 11 page '3-dr ' air' raid precautions,'- the amount of work ; '1 a; that waa- done' oa .that, ''and, the preparations , throughout the 15 i completely, and In other places It was done rather haphazard- . lyv It was more or leas a natter, of ohanoe, ' j .. .Hou,' we do not believe .that our organization ia in any j 'position'to say what precautions ought to be taken, but we ' :do feel very strongly that the least the'yard .can do is to' keep up to date and be sure-they are acting in accordance with the wishes of the local army and navy officials. . If that is done, there is no reason that we should criticize it,: * ' . *. * *i but by and large nost of the# yards we saw the emergency ned- ! ..... i laaL supplies," such as you would nsed in the event of an air; * ' * * **" j raid* etc., were.generally speaking all in one plaoe. Now, | . 1 . . i that is not always true, but generally it is. So if there ! ' .- * `# | was a,direct hit, presumably most of them would be destroyed. \ The responsibilities of the aredioal services .are, I i j .' ` .I think, more or less-what would be expeoted, with posslbXe j exceptions of item. Bo...3/ ' That, -I-do not think has been done .;. ; v. - j-.- 0* j in practically any yard we have se-en, and is done in most j modern industrial establishments*t such as large factories. That in, it 'should betha Joint responsibility of the med ; ioal snd safety departments through the supply department to: 16e i! with, and in some cases they nere chemicals the result of a careless use'would be bad* . j- How, there la no reason why, If the Maritime Commission i '* ; [ `and the Navy act as a unit, we cannot hare what amounts to an * ..." . i enforced labeling, and that would simplify things a lot. j .# . I , '' Tou may buy a ban of`something or other to thin paint- 1 >1 with/-and wha we want .to do is to make the-manufacturer put" f i the name -of the IngrediSatton there. Now, you do not have ; | ` I' .i to ask him to divulge the chemical formula, but you would : !I . . j>i ,1 save us. a lot of headaohes if that information was- given. ' - Hoa, we- have a laboratory on the west coast, but-we do ij | 1 `not want you to send in these chemicals- fof us to' analyse. ' i It is'a devil' of a Job, and it is very easy for the manuf ac- : ... tursr who puts the `labels, on- there to give us that informs . vtion-.``: Ve do not want-to have him divulge the trade seorets ? . t* * , * . * .. "* * * ' . - or. his-secret farauln-because there, is no reason -why we : ---should-have*it, but instead of "Quick Acting Solvent 22," j ' | or soaething like that/they night-as well put on the con- 7 position, -say, 10 per- bent benzoin, 80 per cent phenol, or - ** ^ ^ v ` *'V`* * .'.v* . * . ; * ".`whatever/.,.v i t< 'is/* and`let ua know what`it is. "That would save ..-you`a lot' of-trouble, and also it would save us a lot of that this ought to be done, and oe think we can put it * ' ' * j - through. le could hare the strong backing in that oaae of w ** aoat of the large manufacturing companies likewise, suoh as *i General Electric, General Motors, eto., because they are in ' * * ** * . ,* the same boat, "and they donot like these weird names in iJ their chemicals any more than, we do.' " j ^ Bow-,7-I-hepe-very mueh.-t.hAjt -ynu-gill g-i ynn-p-"hg^- lag on'that, and if you hare any reason to disagree, perhaps * . * . '* . ; when we get down to details or on.that this afternoon, you ! : . .... can so indicate. . . . * . . | .{ * . On Item Ho. 5, the future employment of women, and the | '... * ..." " . i necessity of making provisions in the meical set-up for their #.**.** * . , * . examinations and care, la perfectly obvious, but I do not ", think it is" being foreseen in "a good many yards as it'should "^e. - .vj *-.. . i Cafeterias and canteens. By and large in. the Maritime i 'and the Havy contract"yards, they could stand a very lot of ! 'improvement." ' fTe'saw few of_ them that would compare favorably I that you would see in a modern sanufaoturing plant. TZhat " ""."ought "to be done about them from .the broad national policy, |. . we. are not yet quite sure, but something certainly should be';  >c or food dispensing arrangement that, the men use,- and Inspect them, the way they are done* and In regular army and navy ' work. How, those -inspections ought to be at scheduled times, * ' *' and they ought to be very frequent, and they ought to be i" ' * `` ." thorough. . : ... ' I* *- -- ' " j i i ..." .The water supply, sewerage_.aa<L_H.aate disposal by and ! large, we had little fault to find" with any of them." There " were one or two exceptions, but in general they were -well ! handled. But, we think 'those suggestions for inspection on page 4 should be followed, * * * ... --The provisions for salt tablets, particularly in the . ' . ' yards around the Gulf,are imoortant, and in plenty of the J { j j east coast yards' in the summer weather. . * . . Sow, part .of our'set-up for the future work will involve the laboratory which will be at the Harvard School of Public' '* . * ,, "* *# ' *-- * ....... - * ' . , \ Health, and there will be another one at Berkeley, California. 2h. -vwo. rk... .t..h...at we want these. . laboratorie. s to do .at.fi.rst is to help yoa.out in examination of urine specimens, and in- * . . * ;** - .* *,, footed blood poisoning. ' . . " ' . ' 'I \ i j propose .to" disouss in the medical meeting this after noon procedures for carrying out such analyses and we will be ? /!-*'<? - '| r^ady,'wo hope* very soon to helo you out with such analyses' .ourselyesj' -and then 'to send somebody who can show you hew to:. r7*'*-**V-/** -**.'> i'. .. . . **. ' -j practically all of the Uarltlse and many of the Nary operated ' yards knov you are likely to get some lead poisoning, os- I ! pe dally from Holding on lead painted surfaces* As. you knov, it is pretty nearly routine procedurenov in all Maritime j * * > ** Im* ; yards to paint all metal surfaces as soon as possible, uhether ; they have "been erecte'd or not, and very often the painted ones ` are taken out to the hull and" voided in the proper position. ( j She lead paint is not stripped off at that time before veld- *. . * i ing* The routine procedure is to veld vith the paint on, i ` '* : . ' * '. j and the heat of the arc gets rid of the paint, and the veld- ' " '-| leg Job Is ail docs at one time. '' ' .. ., I .: There has nsver keen any such vurk done yet industrially . .` . ' , I vhsn lead poisoning has not resulted, and ve think it is . certainto re-sult in the ahlp yards. The vay to avoid it.. I ' I; obviously, is not to paint needlessly, and ve are sure you ; - ....*. ` .i vill back us in suggesting t.o the Ilaritine- Commission that , | * . . I * *. * . steps be taken to reduce that practice of painting before it needs to be dans* ` have no fault to find vith ship construction in vhichj . a job. is finished, and has been painted, and an inspector '."'goes around'and 'ch'ocks off, and. says that that has to be ..'revaloocLThat sort of thing is inevitable.,' Ze are not i [-.. :-' v' ;c'... -* ... ....... - _. - ; V' *'-v . : . - i'> /.''. - .. i` ' teriticising that,- but've- are criticising the needless pre- .:l'paintinrugr*j.*'and rvra ta>yr*<c firmly convinced that froa the production ". -.- vrS'.'.T.j-j.iiiT.'r- -s2.v4-!Vs ' * ';" "'^jrtardpolnt- that' that `can be easily, stopped*' ,, V--' *. . 2V~ (- ' ' " How, wo will show you In the demonstration here this ` .* * .-* ' afternoon when we hare & welding outfit going the procedures ;1 ' .. . . now adopted for sampling air/ and It is & procedure that can * * '.*** ** ** * . ,be done by the"safety engineers, or the procedures that our 1 . ** t < - * "t . men will .use when they cone to visit you to chech up on any * : >i' such-hazarda-aa we*ar.e discussing hare today* *i . * .* , - . How, those sort of air analysea~andr~checha ne?d not he done, often* We do not want to wish a needless chore on you * * * ** ' * . that will Interfere with sore Important duties for the safety " * 'engineer, and above. all the last thing we want to do is to 51 : put through any restrictions that will slow up the ship- building program* If we can present to you the facts as we know they exist, why then nayhe you can mate suggestions \ -- r *'*%**.*' ; -. * ; * * . ' , yourselves to put through the things that you thinh are ... ` " -*' ' V . ' ' . " . . necessary*. .- ^ ,v - . She-Items, under Section *S* on the use of safety depart- meats'in Shipyards which has to do* with respiratory protec- equipment,*'and'the llha, we thinh that the respiratory [''program'in the Haritine yards, and the Havy yards, hare no t been. *atJoll*gDOdI\ We would urg* in the .strongest possible , :v/ Warms that'all yards now-buy only and use only, respiratory * :* ***>, *' V*; ,, ' and. respiratory protective- equipment that has the approval >V;'of-~tha^ TTnit'od.'States Suresu of Wines.Experiment Station at .*. *,/;-*<*.*. ,.* c4.. ?.VEj call7 of firms supplying respirators which have the federal " ** * approval# ' . . .. _ '' . ; Wa have seen material used of protective equipment la `practicality every yard which la aot at all salted to the Job. . ` . * ** 4 - * - '- . ` * | The aoat reliable consultant you can got on that today Is ! v * . / * ! ;..the TInited States Bureau of Mines, which, of course, is a .t ' . federal organization and whose Information is open to all ~i of you Immediately* ' `` # *j . ` tTe will have here, and show you this afternoon, ! ' . *. I .tomorrow, a respirator, or respirators which have such aooro- ' ; . , :-r . .. ." i ..yal, respirators which giTe aid, adequate protection, et j cetera, in welding of lead painted surfaces. ' .* ** ."*'* `* ' **. Mow, there is an item on 3--B on sterilization of res- | pirators'which perhaps will be a useful scheme to'you, and ! \ . '* .! .also you*.will notice in the last- paragraph of the last page j oa 5-B-, reference to the _ national. Safety CCoouunnt cil sheet ; . governing, the; same thing more .'fully# I '.'V Section* C *-ia ' devoted to *"a Very bbrrief diswussion of * . .* > - . \ v--7r' * *v* *:,**'>`:" *..*? v* * * *.** * * . * * * seven items' of 'industrial disease's which is libel y to occur .. in shipyards, or*in'nany cases already have.' 'The most in- portant^. of ..then is the flash bum,- foreign bodies in t!he ' ' :Vv. Vi'/-:* 1^- v . . . . * . ' ` ' * . ` * m*' i ` ' '1 a ' m .* # *` ^ ^ ,* '* f' ^' * ** 1 *- C"*`x,wmm'.'?? ** - m ~~ *..* *. ** i" ,*, jv | . . * **"*.' i " `., % :\'J *'f\. *- 221 :.; 3-C refers'to xino'fune fever froa welding galvanised * * *, . " ....*...........%. *.,'* . .. * . * , . * . ' . * |. * . * * ' . . . . ' ' aetals.' - ' ' ' ./-f'\ '. ' *_' '. \.i * Ths. next, section Jlas to do with fiberglas, and'then on -4-C, It has to do with asbestosis, and silicosis. The ~ . * ' - asbestosis is caused in connection with the handling of * * *.** * . `.asbestos* -That `is not unlike silicosis in its effects, and j Ui- -are rather expoct it to oocur in shipyards, because we have 1' ' seen asbestos being, handled in' installation work with little ! ' . ' - . : .-V . : v . . j or no precautions* ` ` ' ' ` . - ` * * . -; ` ' Asboptosis, silicosis, lead poisoning froa solvent . ; 11 i '/ ' ; * "'i . *'- ` ` i " ''vapors, and lead can really not be controlled satisfactorily ; ' .* . j . unless systematic,' periodic examinations of aen are enforced./ X sight say*: it:.is:very .difficult or practically impossible j ' ..'s . . s ... . .*;to control it' by urinalysis*" It-has never been able to /\ cental it. that, way'so far that I know of*' ' , * , ,* *'*,'**"* * * . 1 t . 1. .* v* /V-'* $?.//^Cn,.Section ^ we .-have ventilation, standards,' the dis- .'cussioa of .which would be- out. of order now, but we will dis- ^. 1-^ v* ./*VmT4>v\v ;* .v v-'...* " ..**'.*% *... .* * J. * . ' * toaorrow with any groups r* * -A- .t *:. \:t '*- * ?: /such:, a.-- discussioa -with- the*._JV0V: -- -* -r* --. tM,q afternoon for those Interested in the medical aspects, to meet in this rooa at two ofcloci:, had those interested in the safety engineering aspects will meet with Ur. Roche ' . . , in the Aaerican Rooa on the aesranine floor at two o'clochr Then, at three-thirty o*clock we will shift and we will then give the* same welding demonstration here, and rentilation to . * * * ... . * '* 'the safety group and Ur. Roche will go over his stuff to.......... some extent with the medical group, *5 ` ''*'* As.a.result of the conferences this afternoon, we hope that we pgr* iron out perhaps nost of the difficulties, objec tions, additions,' or subtractions that -you hare to sake to ** , *. > .. ' , t {. * these proposed standards, and that toaorrow we can formulate- . it into final shape* ' . * *> :r-.Ur 'Roche and' 1 apologise Jointly for the fact that there 1 1I ,.is a certain amount of duplication in his reports, and ours* j ..'Soke of' the so things are'safety engineering, and some are '. taedlcal, and' some' certainly are'both* ' " v: - . `He 'la' interested in prewenting accidents, and disease, just as. nu.ch.~as we* ara. ` S03 if' we do overlap,- we have no ' . * n c . *?:.oy* ***. v%...* <.** i-r-r * ..*.:* , * , ** .. * . *. apologies*;'. Tou will, not ice * that we demand a safety store . ; > ' ... .-i.--*.- . .~ 4 ---.'and so', does''he,"'and- Just -'so'long as 'you hare that material '^r. ... '* Jr' ' '''.r-VaTailabi's^where %tha.ken -can.easily, and conveniently, get will consist of too physicians frca men In lndnstrial oorh * in the Navy yards. Dr. Sessions .Tras with ns this sunnier on j this tour, and he will be one of then. There will be six . . # _ * aea, three of chon you -will see this afternoon in the '. demonstration that we .propose to give. They are engineers, i . - . v- | . and 'cheaists trained especially .in industrial- medical manner ; on the prevention of disease. * .. One of the doctorrs headquarters will be in the east, ' ' . I and one in the west,- and there 'will be two ensigns' to cover ! the east coast and one to cover the west coast, one the Great Labes, and one the Gulf, and I have to cover all the rest of ! then, and. this gentleman (Hr. Mng) is our boss. .;;.... '..Itow,. our Job is to help 70U. We-will, be available to cone and see-you and help you at anything that we can. ' We have had'a couple of requests from yards now. to go baeh on At . * - ' ... -- 'I `specific investigations," to aea the hazards jnhich they though' '' that' they had/'cr did have, 'and to help tell them ways o.f '.improving: .conditions^ et cetorsu^. - That is.what we are for, , y and 'that .is what' we' are^ being paid for, and if you do not ' ,v. : '-..'`.`.Ur'; C{ Xv" ".'uaha use of 'tis," sr-if. you do not- aahe us rrorh for you, we 'v;-wili'`be'^s-elf-ii'aTiidatinsr and 'resigned. ~ That-is. chat the questions, "but get this ready tor this afternoon. Thanh you5 Tery nuch. (Applause)- ' . * CEUBHAH RIBGl Well, I Just had1 another demonstration ! of Harrard philosophy that has always been pursling to me. ' '" '' .' - i If I am not mistaken, I heard Hr. Drinker Just nou say that ; '. . ., * Hr. Hoohe and he mated to apologise Jointly for overlapping, *... . * . *_ | .and two minutes later, he said, *If you find any overlapping-' there, ve have no apologias to Bake.* ...... Sooner or later, as \ ! .. I years go on, I -Bill find out hov to assimilate those things.' *' * .I 'la the meantime, I think ve ought to hear from the Havy. ' c |! th is Just as much interested in this program as the Itari- r tine Commission,, and ufaich is bearing an equal, if not a ... -i heavier brunt pf the load and the expense. The oooperation ; "that has been extended by the Havy has been something-that |` \ ~ ` * . * *% has been, fine, especially in Washington, there sometimes they.`find one'agency and another quietly'and politely fig^.t-1 - **. *** -. v ;* .* * * ing uith each-other* "*' \ ' ...... ... . *. * * . . * > ' *. :* . '; X uant to-present to you'at thin time Lieutenant . Co=mand*er J3. '2. Carlson,' tmo,'is the Havy representative on safety and- health* \ j 7^LHUTSHAH*;'COSTAffDSE CIHLSOHr _ haak: you-very nuch, IIr*;'Chairon7 but'.I 'could .llih;. to sar'that Hr.'-D e s Jardine s ;v->"v : ~-i: i'-- - ' _ in one- of,- ^oe-m, and X Just' cant to-* say that trei i\ - *jy \ .1%!.**- *%-j:-?.*V % ;; V *. ;; * /- : - - . : * -: ` r * 7 Trill.- cooperate- ulth youto- tho* fullest extent*Ho -never, ve . _ ---r- - ... - : "cro goisrj- to 'sit 'bank on the sidelines and iot Exv Bing boon the show. We are Just here In an as ala ting capacity. There ` . V' are Just a eouple of things that corn* to ay mind at this time, j and you are Jusrt as auch`affooted h7 them, and I have refer-! ; . 4. - - ' J ence particularly to the manner In which we are being hit by- . * | the draft. You are going to have a special problem that 7ou! ' .- i never had before, because you are going to have the lame and the blind, and-not the -female coming-to--you*- Have you--e-ver- -- - * '# * . tried.to put safety shoes, on a girl? Well, you are going to have to do that very shortly.. All I can say is regard to * that is to try to get them. You are going to have trouble j .' - - * - i * getting material; you are going to hare especially consider able trouble in getting men. 1 know that we are having a dickens of a tine now finding safety engineers, doctors, et cetera, because the doctors are practically all gone. v * * * *. ,..; , , . They are all in uniform. - We have got problems which each individual Is going "to have to solve'himself, and'the biggest help that we are going to be able to give will come 'from the1 Bureau of HedLclne `and Surgery in the Havy Department. We ' are'gains to loan'the necessary of fleers to- the Saritlne Commiesion.'to 'carry along on that, and in that connection, I would like'to present to you Commander Burton, of the Surgeon _ _____________ _____ _______ ^ __ to say in' .that tha. Surgeon General rs office ha a promised all-the . -*V:' they are going to need on this progran is available. a0 ^ar * * \i as the pro gran is concerned, I have nothing to say about that. It sounds very good to ae. (Applause) ! CHAIR2IAN BIEG-: ' TTeall knou the difficulties that have ; _ ' * -. ' ` .' i been caused so far as eye trouble is concerned, and we knew ' .. . ** * '` ! that is one of our principal probleas. In arc flashes, *daea' ' - - ,* a burn occurs, and the result'is that you put'& man* a eye j " out of comaission for a'while, I would like to say that the ' *, , * 't ,. organization in this country which his taken one of the lead * ** *- i ing roles In safety ueasures, so far as eyes are concerned, .` ' . ` . . i i is the Eational' Society for the Prevention of Blindness, the representative of. that association is here today, and she is probably one of the leading ophthalmologists in the country. * *' * * * j tfe have- prevailed upon Dr. Eedwig S.Kuhn to cose here froa Earraon4, Indiana, to give us a feu vords, and ne have under stood "that .Dr* Kuhn uill. be here for any specialised assist ance which she,, can give during the entire session. I want to present to you at this .tine Dr. Heduig S. Kuhn. " ' " *'..**'-.** * . : V-l'. ISlv;ESpTm3- S. KDEEj- yell, I do not knou that there is' nuch I can, say after the reference'to the. lane,' ths blind, `and tha. wcaen all- in'one sentence. X do. not knou whether ue .. arc- 'going to-Ve/cibla to kelp-you. very nuch or not, .but ue \ ;S Vv` ;;-.V ; V' - - - - ' are going .to try,.'. and X .think.it ia not only .Jus t a* question of gp'ssla a," but-the'actio cur .that' ebaa freer eyes after they__ ;> r.\V-V' : r.-y ;. arc -pro toe-tad iron gog^oo that'X hope ue.can.-get across to  . . . - . you in the next couple of days. . * j2. ^ a* WJ -. I Trould Just liie to say ' * ' , at this.tine that the Joint comnittee of Industrial Ophthal* * *~ * * " " nologiats, .which Is the official group of the A* H. A., and , Aaerlcaa- Academy. of Ophthalaog^lt^are bach, of this Industrll T .wo* r.i that has'. heen ' suggested, ' and .* .* which'it . . has been * my pri-- K;` Tileg8 to "be associated with, and I hope that I can be of \ sone useful assistance to you* Thanh you very much.(Applause) * 'CHAXRHAH EXHG-: X now tahe a great deal of pleasure in j I presenting .to you Hr. John Roche of our Safety Department. . I ' -.- HE..JOEH B0CE2: then we started this program a few months ago, Dan'Ring told he a onething he did not tell'you. He said, .' } . *Rocha,. our. Job is to build ships, and we are ncrt building as. .. nahy ships as we could build if we were not hawing the acci- j dents--that were occurring'in shipyards to-day.* ' -\:v.not - . Hot^ we hare/absolute and final records' on the national j shipbuilding situation in this country today,' but we have-been, able to prepare estimates, ' and the national Safety Council will: shortly'cone'"out with a statement. that if the'accidents had not occurred,\f the tine had not been lost, if the nen j: had. not been, hilled, we ..would hare- built 101`care -Victory/.... V'-''-"'^ /-V . " -Vrr yv* n't - -re* o rrnfl V<^rr rri. * r+nnl t*. rffl v'v" nCTT `wertr 'going'-to' ha'pragtlaal,' that-it wan not"*going to- "be an r'"idealistic :achonLa^`-"cure-all, Ilia cone erf"the other things. . ;/!: that'hawo':-boon- wishod on..''the shipbuilding' industry,, and a lot. of other industries in tha last tow years. So, uhat yon get' *. ** *# ' . . . . ** ji today, and that yon tdll look at this afternoon in the'safety ``part of this nesting,-and the health part, are oar ideas or ! ttlnlnua standards, not -eonplato accident prevention pro grans, hat 'thar standards, the basis upon which yon can build a sound _ ...... .fc- ^ .s -accident prevention prograalnryour shipyards. . * . "` . :z .Let ne nay a word about, the type of yard selected. . T7e ,i ** did not go to the worst yard; ere did not go to; the best yard;* 'or to tha biggofft yard, or to the enallest yard. We tried ! ' ' ` '''i to get a representative, sample of the shipbuilding industry.! 'j We took froa those samples the best things that they had in. ' . '. . * = -j their organization, and the plans for -facta that I propose ! . . ' .* ' I far tho nlnlsaa standards are the beet things that are going! on. in'tha shipbuilding industry today,, aa far-as I uas able j "to discover* on that survey, based oa ny past erperienoa, based oa ny conversations,. and talks trith shipyard nen* /. Share is .a definite need.for standards^ *1'have run ^ x' * * * "' * *' * * - * ' . .* ` . into e.rery conceivable typo of accident and record, every '% , possible type of safety couaittae, every possible type of designation of- responsibility to a safety dopartnent. - Won, ' ths safety nan night be. anything- from a--shipping ^ * * V.^ *_7. ** * . "j;* #-** *;* f.' ^ ^. ** ..** * ***7r .. ; * * ' c * * * *\ .. --_ * f** * . .- * *. * dorkto* a'vln^^reaidQjit. . Es night be the ''yard super int en-! dent-* or* ah in. the case of .coao yerd^ ho had a definite and specific responsibility- fear- the. safety and health for c -.-`-.`-r-*.*" .-* .. .* .-/ . ` : . -t.'.'f. tha> nan:.in..his yardJ^-'.^. ;./< * j -f-'v-,;. ^ * . * *. *. **L * - - *' * ' ` ` \ . So, w are rcconaanfliag' gta'nrtgT&a. `'ffo.-do not nay, hoo- - .'..** * ` *.** *' : r *. * *.i-.. i error, ' that IT your yard dooa.not ocnpl7 <n eretj roapeet, 'tint 'you nuat arbitrarily .change froa-that 70-s . . * ; * V* * . * / ' :, *? :. * . .-' are do lag; to -that' those Hialaun'` standards sussent. If you are doing a better 40b than .the gtandarda-ach-^Sor, then" ' -.. . r .'v/. 5-V:^ *'*-. *''. '. . '*' _ . : .................. . -------- ~ . __ * continue to ao'lt. .If you are not dolng^ag goolT a Job,' thou the least that caa be ashed lo that 70U bring up your 'safety departaent and health department and hygiene uurh to tho nlnlsua standards that-are'reqnirotL 'l"'.'"*'"'' ;V- ' - . Hoer, 'I triad out this pro gran- on a group of guinsapigu and I see a lot .of then aro'hore, that la, "the proposed ninii- aua standards -for the cafot7 in shipyards.' there were 13 ' * ,' * * nen fron all sections -of the country at "that aeetiag, and so' ' ' _. ; ; .j \held a seating in Chicago and discussed these proposed aini-i . ', . ; ^ .' . i jsua standards and at their' suggestions certain corrections ' ' ' .1 and changes hare been, nado in the proposed standards, fhey ! are included, so that you hare right nor in your hands, that. represents a pretty good cross-section of opinion of tho * * * ' * .* * shipbuilding industry on the type' of standards they thinh shoul d be nlnlnua. * ' . ': ' '' . Hoc, let ne Boy first, tho drean of every safety eagine'e . ,. * ,, * / . is to sell hia aanageneat', to get hia nanageaent actively in bach of hin, and to' nahs mans, gen errs believe that safety j is Just as lnpartont as a safety engineer hnous it ia. That: is one of tho toughest Job a that a safety nan has' in any . j . Shoaa gjrlnga^gtaaanrdn, -thllo thqy -pill sort gaaraniee .*.* .- - '.' '. . v. * >-'c\ .- , . - ' \% * * _ * , , * *** to do'.that for you, ,'certainly caliber -a epe elfin action on . '......*.....*....>.. -, r . ... . .%--. ',, ..iT:.*-". !?.'.).> >.:*...*, *. -_s> i'.. ..... . tho part.'of .ganaggaoafc, ' 'They tea VI,/'Sar 'actiTa'.and latere triad coop^ratlon^ ^dsi^nntratoa. ^_cartaAn^nctri'^3s that.' dll | shoe in no-caeertoln xxay `that. aanageaagj' liTdeflult ely a~ " * ^ " * .* ` * . *'**** ~1 . " ,* . * ... bach of' joist yard, pro gran, and tilth, that cooperation and ' . The safety dspartnont has outlined a "pro gran, and tre d23 -.* * ^ . * ' *'>*.'-;* ** * - * > have cone discussion on that thin afternoon* ' -We-have tried ' * - /. ` ,' *r V* r * v V- '.'-I : .v--.t ;%5>* I * * " ' *. . to designato^tha*eisa cf.the safoty dLcpartnent based on.tho sine of the yard* ..We bare told them. of. their responsibilitib j * * . "* '' i and xaat .they shrill do and hoc they'shall do it, according * * . * *****.* ' . to the yiiniaaa standards^. . , ? ,** * \ * J . f . * .7 . * * .. " . * . .. . ' . - ' .Hoc, they are not to he chipping Claris, hat safety ' *; `- ' directors and _onfoty engineers, and they are to take the- '' > .: ..'' i- 1 responsibility and proTent .aocident 3 ;ia. the yards* `. :* * . ... .We are suggesting, too, certain types of report foma j | j uhich you ciU find in the bach or.the leaflet hero, and the': are too elaborate to go through at this tine, and they dll be discussed this afternoon* . ^ ' ~ . v \ , e.. . We have specified the typo of couaittees. Hoc ever, age \ ** * *` '' . * let me stress a*-standards are chat ore are referring tc There is a policy-foming coamittee, or a central connittee  ' ,............. ' ^ - .. 32! ii a supervisors eonsittee, and the various Inspection conaittees. Bow, IT 70a have noro than feat, use 'then, but If you do not ! . hare a policy-fornlng 'conaittee, and I regret to say that I I.nany of the yards do not haare then, then you "should hare one,1 and'get'the-benefit'of* nanagementr s participation in your deliberations upon safety patfal-easy which arise in'the ,yardrf # * * , . * .. . We specify esployee training.' Let ae say this: I risited training schools in every yard in every section of , .. 11 the country, and they are doing a swell Job of craft train- - 'I ing, but they are doing a lousy Job of safety training. I j ' ' ' V. ' '; .' I walked into a welding school and saw the instructor working * without a helset. ' I investigated the records of shipyards and found .that hen who had taken craft training in those .\ welding schools were 0 per'cent`nore likely to have eye flash than, were the nen`;aho did not'have training. I found in one; .yard that there was sore'tine lost due to eye' flash than allj | tho'rest' of the lost tine fron all of the other aca.lden.t3 ' ' in 'these yards fron'anything ''else. '. w .... y ' . ' I* found one yard where there were'two days given off . -for every* oye flash/ -and' in. other yards all they did was to >.' get treated;"''''e have"no.Y'sthndards, 'and we are' losing too truch. tine;*.. T2hyT 'Because craft,and; safcty'training are not TAV T^ it td.ll be elaborated on considerably. The LLaritiae Cosnlssion. la' setting up tho standards, said that you cust not sat up standards, but. give thea tools with, which to uorh, .' * ' . * * . Ii and the fir at thing to do la create an organisation, and that , * * is not. going to be a typical goreranental organisation, tfe | ' .' '* i iarc not going~ta hound you to-death with two or three hundred inspectors, bat we are going, to. set up a consulting' or ganlza- * * *. * " '-- t tion which will be available to.you, and which will "Be * ... . . { ! able to give you the help which you need then you want it, ! ' ! based on your sonthly reports to the ISaritine Commission. ' ! If your yard shews a need of help, you will get it, whether i you want it or not, and 1 can see soao of 70U sailing., Veil, all that that noans is this: that we are going to review your records, and if you are above a' general small industry average, then you aspect to receive a visit fron the ' Harltine consultant, and have hin offer hia oLssiatance to , determine .chat AVurongi there your accident record i3 up, ! /vU.\ i;-v'.... . . .... ' ` j and that.you can' do* to get tho accident record there it be- *. ***%'*,...'...*.`*"**, .* .*'* * '*,* * * - * \. ^ .... `I .V-V;Vr Asothcr,. thing, we are supplying the tools for you in addition to the-orginisatioa, and one of tho too la will be via' i:'Carcfai. Hana^-ghat uas>;all the way-up and down lir mhfl 34 fron tho building of ohipo, to tho patriotie angle, and every thing doe, but nothing on specific safety praetloos chi eh they need* There should be specific postors for burners, stage riggers, orane operators, ot eotora* ' ' Tor xanple, we hare a aan out la-the Bay orea-in-San -- Praneiaoo whore we hare a vAriety of ohlpbuildingy-aaklng-a ' study. He la taking pictures, aaking sketches, and he is beooning thoroughly foalliar with shipbuilding operations. That nan is an artist, and a photographer. Tou can expect within a short tine now to here speciflo and definite types of posters for crafts on safoty practices* In addition to that, we will later on furnish you with safety instruction cards, and such other saterlal as you \ ^nay need. In addition, we will hare sound filn strips based again on specific unsafe oraft practices. Tou all know about goggles. All I hoard up and down the Paoific ccast was, `to are 5,000 pairs short. We need - then, but we can't get then." Another-yard says, "Wo are 10,000 pairs short," or th7 will say, "We need hard hats," or, "We need shoes, we cannot get then, and we are begging for then." Well, the liaritine Conuission is1 doing this for you. This is not a precise, but a hope. We will go before the War Priorities Board, and endeavor to secure better priorities ratings for the nanufacturcrs of safety equipaent. The War Priorities . 35 Board goneroualy gare the shipyards the beat possible rating they oould get, and then they tarn around and gire the safety equipaerit aanufacturora a double X rating, and they cannot get the stuff to sake the things you want. We are going to help you on that, and we are going to ash you to get down on your knees and pray very hard then Roche and .... 4 Ring and Drinker go down there and try to get a better rat ing for the aanufacturers of equipsent. Other things covered in the proposed aininua standards i. are cafe practices for wol.dora. How, again those are nininun standards. I did not intend to go through, and I do not intend to go through the whole ganut of work practices for the welders, the burners, or tho chippers, or the practices \ Nof housekeeping, or handling of tools, but we have given you what we hare found as a result of our study, because we believe that they were' the things that oaused the accidents in shipyards today. How, If we have le-ft anything out, we hope that you wil say so, but the things that are in there have caused acci dents, and caused a lot of then, and those of you that have studied your records know Just how nany accidonts th'ey have caused. We propose later on to issue ainlaun standards for staging of scaffolds; we propose later on to issue niniaus standards for fire protection, and they are not arbitrary standards, but only suggestions and recommendations. The consulting force of the flafot7 Urision of the Maritime Comission will be glad to cooperate and help in evsry way that it' can in the development of such standards in your yards that will dthor neet-or-better Haritlne standards. One of our biggest problems was women. They always are. Hare and more women are being takon into shipyards. I'hare iheard all hinds of figures. They say evontually that eight * per cent, 24 per eont, 36 per oent will be In dilpyards, but no one really knows how naay women we are going to use. All of the 38-year-olds and over, now, hare been elininated froa the draft, bell, what does that neon? It means the younger and nore aotire aen, shilled or non-ebilled, are going to be \taken for military service, be hope not, but it looks as though they will, and that aeans that nore wonen nust be ready to step in to fill thoir places. Training will have to be ' developed for women, and the question is will it be difforent frou that given to nen? bhat shall be included in addition to the training that we are giving, to the aen? Those are Just a few of the problems that we are faced with women In the shipyards. You all know the ocamen-problem which I won't touch on here. That will take care of Itself. If there is any doubt about it, see me after the meeting, and I will tell you a couple of stories based on that. i 37 .HoweTer, on# of the biggest probleus is clothing for woaen. I wrote to & lot of nannfaoturors for worh olothlng. In fact, I wrote to 159 of ttien, and what you aee here notr la a repreeontatlTe oanple of the aorh clothing being nnnu- faoturofi for wonen. But, what-are gone of the probleaa? Here is one for you to" consider. Oftontlnes, you hare seen in 7our own 7ard. If 70U hare wonen eiployod, when a wonan weldor wants to nove orer to another Job, ehe will ooil up hor hose, put it ovor hor shouldor, and thon orer7 few steps she would tphe, ohe would have to hitch up hor pants, be cause the wonen are built a little difforontl7 froa the nen. In other words, the wonen are wearing non's elothing. The nan, if 70U will pioture hin in 7our own nind, has a different \. figure from a wonan. A nanfs bod7 is built straight up,and down, and a wonan on the other hand is built in this nanner (illustrating). Do 70U. see that I nean? TTell, as a result of that, the pants do not ata7 up. _ Another problca is, that no'at wonen shave under the . ' area. Thej oro wearing rough clothing, and the7 are wear ing clothing- that is of a dyed naterial, and we are not faniliar with the spec!floations. It nay run, and it nay not. We are afraid of a dernatitis ara Infection, tfell, what should they have under their arnpits? Should they have-on am shield? Should th.9y be built in? Should they be supplied separately? Should we ash then to bring them from their own  6b hone? Should we supply theu7 That la Just another one of i tho problems that la going to face us in the future. * - *. * .' * ' ' .Another thing, many tines woman diaappear fron their ' ' ' Jobs for about an hour# Veil, there la a reason for that. ......... ... , . -* * They are all dressed up In their unifora, and here is mat ! i ! was described to ae la th_a_shlpyard-ln Broofclyru---------- --- -j i ... First, they put on a suit of long underwear, then a * * * ; \ pair of frhahl trousers, and women .being as neat as they are,' trill put on aonething over that, and I do not know why. Then , . * , they hare to .go to the office, and they are gone for about i an hour, because it tahcs then about that long to get their \ *. '" . . i '` ' . j clothes off, and go to the office, and return, and'then put ' " * .* *' ' j than bach on'again, the manufacturers haYe not recognised . \ 'r , *. . * '* . * the need for sons convenient arrangenent for women who are .* .. '! j i worhing in shipyards, and brother. If you tah9 an hour for ' ' * i - .. i each woman, in the Borgiag and once In the afternoon,- and j multiply that by the number of"women you have in the ship-- " j. yards, and the number- cf shipyards you have in the country, i - ' i you trill have lost a lot of hours in the building of Victory - *. f..N . . - ` i chipa, which.is an essential activity at this. time. . .. j So, w have got ta establish soma standards there. "/ * >' , . _Shull .clothing' haver cuffs? there be cuffs on -.............` .......... * ' trousers?^ .q*i.^TT the clothing be made- ta hide the natural j ! carves and contcur of tho wenen* sc that they will act be exposed to the Jibes of the man in tho yards, or shall +-V* S I  . 39; clothing bo designed so that you know it is a woman and know who is working alongside of you, or near you? Shall the ** ' j , . clothing be designed by a stylist as one of these hats down ! . * . . ' .. I I . here are deslgnsdby Dache at a considerable, cost? In that ; . .* ` *t / -_ - ' j /; tray, the women will feel pepped up and their morale raised, --because they feel that they have style work clothing"to"^ear. . There-are a lot of.problems* Shall they have flat s'eaa i _ . *. i pockets, or any pockets at all? Shall the clothing be flane- >. . . . .. j! proof?. .If it is flame-proof, tho should do it, the shipyard? Eho shouldpay for the worker^, clothing being made flame proof," the worker or the shipyard? -Should there be some * t ./ cooperative agreement? Those are only a few problems with *'** \ women* ' * i . . < *- * . 1 '. . - "Dhat about separate lockers and locker rooms for thea.7 ! . Ehat- about protection of their looker rooms? That about j * transportation? TZhat do' you do with them at night when they! - .. *i . are working on the graveyard shift, or the swing shift? Those - ** - " v" *: ' i are- Just a few of the things that you will have to be think-- ***.C*> ** 7.. V- .I Ing about, : 'another one of the tools we are going'to give you | -*. ' '* ,l.* *'#' '"\.r "*-* **. v* " f ,7- "* *'*" ' '**."..* Ar*'.. I4nc. ao *'scarfentyrtcfelnct ers-*rt*E** lv?.TeTrcry~'T'pTeifrlsrsofinft TI talked ttroi aon this tour,: ", .a.national shipyard accidsai pro-vention contest for thich a ru_Las rcr sucn a conteac on that table, and. I a I ah those of 'you oho are Interested, would get copies of those rules and .. * '. ' I study then, and please wrlije .me therein you think they should *... he changed, so.-tre can get this contest under way starting tj i January 1, and continue up until Deceabsr 31, 1943. ' .... How, in the safety setup, as I said before, tre were not j going to build up an organization of about 600 uen to cone around- and-plague youi Tou know they are investigating some ; * * . of. them now, and it probably would not. be long until they .' * starting investigating governmental organizations to find .: ' 'I out what they are. doing,. and getting paid'for. We are going; " .*.* -. . _. j . to have four nen, one in each region, tho will serve and act! # * .v , *. - ! * *' ' ' #' * . - * . j! with you as safety consultants, and assist' you in yotir j .* * safety problems. Each of then have lots of experience in . . * . shipyards, and plenty of experience in safety, plus addi- - tional. training that' is proposed to give them before they ` actually, go to work in the .district, "hey .are at your dis- ! .. r.. v., . * **.. * ' .* * ; . /* ;' ------------ - ** . ' po-sal,- and you are urged to-use them, and as I said before, ' you will use- them whether, you want to or not, if your.acci- dent record does .not-'come up to the .general industrial average ' 1- How,' "thin..afternoon, .we will meet in the American Eooa ; ` ' ' >C ; ` ' ' ' Vr at: two .QTcloek, for all. those people who are interested in i- .. * - > - > safety, and.X. aa going to .ask you/to please bring with you f / .*> -\r:t : *.*/. *.. . * . ;'* ' ' t ;\Wyour.alnlcrcg standards. for oaf ety. with such corrections and . One of the things I hare left out I see, and I have it \j^/ here In tig capital letters, ia the safety supply store. *e| are definitely recommending that a safety supply store be \ installed in allyards. I tnou you are soiling about that, but ue trill stand behind that recommendation, until" hell freezes orer.- e do not believe that men should be- compelled to go into the city"SSd pay retail store prices for safety ' ,*.**.' '. f equipment 'that Is needed for specialised work* It is our ' * ' ' ,, opinion that' they should be given the opportunity to purchase A- ' .. - . i . I that material ia the shipyard, or if not, that then to have ` it Issued as the property of the shinyards* ` .* . Sow, that nay sound lihe a rather tough recommendation, \ jbut in one yard X hrow of, they.could not get safety equip- meat for their man and they wre not able to beep it on their V .' .. I vaea, until they adopted the practice of buying all of the equipment themselves and issuing it on chech. Then, they were able to. give them the' equipment-. 'r ' ; ' ; Hoxr, there is a'certain'turnover in shipyards^ That ha's been discussed from tine 'to`.time,'and .they were then, able to ,, ,, \i * * .*. ' *** '* *. *. *.<* ' ... *. . . ^ * .. get the old'equipment bach, `sterilize it, ' and reissue it to the new men coming into the'yards, and' thare has been only oea a light-' draubach..to 'that at the present tine," and that is 'th-i't tha niTt in tht">raT'd : gt* ?*efnsad to nont. shipyard they went to. they could, not gat * them, and they conveniently lost then and paid for then. I know that that \ has happened to a lot of yon. . Those are about all of the remarks I would like to make; on these n3 nlmtna standards at this time* . This afternoon, .we will Sake our coata off and our hair down, and really go ! 'to town on it*' Thank you very much, gentlemen. (Applause) | j-- -CEAXBILAH EOTCr: I was just exchanging "iTf ew 'side re- ' * marks with ths representative of the Havy during Hr. Eochels talk, and there is something that occurred there that is very, very outstanding. The Alabama, the battleship, they tell me has been launched, or it has been commissioned, after , ' " * . . ` I*I about 24 million man hours, approximately, has been launched; . i without a single fatallity* That is quite a record. (Applause) "> The second thing thatT learned, and I was almost bowled , N\ . # * * # over, is that the Hew Jersey has been launched, and not yet commissioned or shipped out, but has been launched after about IS million nan hours, "and also no fatality there. " . (Applause) ; \ ' * ' r / ' .; Hew,` that is quite a record* And I thought yen would all like to know itj-.because the Havy has in their yard, pre-^ seated a very strong appeal fer safety,'and safety precau- '* V* .--l.-'/r*** X'l*^** *'. /-. ** ... ....... * ' * ftibnsJ-- Ik seems that `it '.'la. hearing results. should be called an. experts^' An expert, apparently is. somebody who feela that the general pnbllc la taking bin at too high ! * I a mine simply because he can talk in tens that the general1 ' . .* I public cannot understand. Along .that line* 'with respect to ! * ' i the assignment of rooms to this aftemooars-session, I tv>i *>v - * ` I that Drinker is about the best expert I have ever seen. j . Jacl^ Wolff_has been in this training--business from .scratch, and he went from nothing up to twentyflve or thirty 4. ` I thousand people. He inows the picture on training, and he ! ' * ! has been mating tours all -over the country, and after.he has' been in a plant, I night say about three or four days later,! somebody calls up Washington and says; `Wolff was up here a feu days ago telling us about the'training setup, and I . wonder how soon te can get him bach.* We ash them That theyi would 11he to have him bach for, and they say, `There are some other things that we want to ash about." ; So, these follows when they are out in the field putting ' ' -i something over, that is one of the finest tests I knew of " * *'**'* whan they are ashing for him to cone bach. That has happened . ! several times, and I want to present to you at this time Mr. \ . ' * '1 Jack Wolff_ ` ^ HR. -ZA.CZ. TOLT?: One of "&.e things, that perhaps la cost j '' v' *'j ' '' | interesting-, and perhaps means the most about that we hare . *. * * *. ' 'boen listening to-'today, and what we are here to worh on*, la`that-'finnlly tho recognition has come to those in places of responsibility that it la a human element that we have to depend on most to 'build these ships. When we speak r and health, we do it because no natter how nuch equipment you . '* * *' i have in your yard, no natter how nuch naterial is over there1 ' ' '. *- . s on the sidetraah waiting to be lifted on the hull, it is the . 1 ' . * .I * | hu. m. an elem ent that controls the'amount st* ee l that is necessar*y * ' ' ' ; - ~ ' _j ` . ;___L,__ i Does that check?' ' * ' . How, experts can come along, as we have heard them this j" morning, and they can outline minimum safety standards, and ! ' . i they can outline minimum health standards, and they can set !. then up, but'they cannot make then work by themselves. It 1 . -j takes something more than that, and. until it works, it is not . . . worth'a damn. It has got to work before it will produce ships. ,i .How, thaso safety standards can be set up by you folks ; ' who are experts in safety. Our management can be sold on them. " V' ' ' * .J and can issue instructions telling the yards that those safety standards'and those minimum health standards are to be follovec ' . ; * ' "r. 4 . - . .` j They can give directions, but that still does not do the job; - because-, we have seen a lot of orders issued, and they have . been 'cither forgottan, or definitely violated, because some body thought' /that .they were Just somebody's wild idea. ' Tfe for.a- little, while, and pretty, soon wa .da not- see them at all. Tt in' junt; iiko.*a *naa 'who" spilled some fl^-avy on his vest. 27ha / first day he was very conscious of that gravy spot, I* the second or third day, he did not notice It at all, but of his friends did see It.' How, that works, because it Is i * > .. | easily checked. All you have to do is put a sign or a poster ... j up in a prominent location, leave that poster there for a fev days, and then change -it,- and rape at--that frequently, and then ' . ' ' .' | make a survey of your y ard, and ask any man you come to what . is bn the poster that is out there on the main gate, the * * ' poster that looks down on you as you come into the yard. If you get two per cent of the men tho can tell you Just mat is ion that poster, figure that you are lucky, because you have got a hi^aer percentage than you are expected to get. He have \ ' *. - ' ,, i- 'triad'that already. * . . ' ' . How, that does not have to do only with safety posters,! * ' . . i but we have asked them the same thing about fire extinguishers. Tfe hare aakad them whore the aeareet fire" extinguisher could . be located. For esample, if this room caught on fire, where- ' /would you go for the nearest fire extinguisher, and out of . 50 or 60 men in a scries of conferences, supervisors^ mind you, there was not a one of then who knew there `he could go to rrr.d a fire extinguish- , and every one of them passed with in. two feet of one before- coming, into the room. ; ' ' /' . So, ` we cannot depend too- much on pesters,' and on signs, * .9 m ** * because pretty soon we become immunised to them, and we do | . * . * * not so them any mors,. V* '' -W i /. 29hs 41 about that date that' they are going to hare that evening that they will he thinking about, is what you are referring 'to* They can do that, because they hare plenty of tine to * `' i do it, because the machine is doing their work for then. - Another thing is'If we give all of the answers to the * . .. men in the field and in the yard, very shortly they say, , ** ^ *' . ' *. Well, of course, that is pretty dangerous, and that ought to be fixed, but we have got a safety engineer here, and tha "is hia problem, and his worry* ' We will let him do all', of th worrying about that.* Poes that jbappen? Sure it does. It happens right along. ' '. ' 7 I - - . One of the things that we have to do if we are going I to cut down safety and health-hazards in a yard is to let y v""- .: ' the men in the yard, the welders, the- burnorsi the ship- ' 'wright, .the ship fitters, andjall the rest of them, the time' *V .* - '** ;.*? ?\\ . * V -* ^ l*T* -*** | * * * *\ 5.:;-; checkers, and those-'that are actually working as mechanics, \ 'those', who are working as'helpers, .those who" are working in--! ...- *..* ,;*.* * : -.-******. I| - ' .. ' * i[ Jobs, that arc ^supposed" to be dangerous, to let them knew j j*-** ' *. '-vV--' *" v-. -\ . . ;. v.. that we'aeed their * help'just'as much as they`need ours. TV .* '. .i . ' 7...^ ^V^.'Thoy* -.said here this morning that training was'one of -r: v ' u; V 'si T. .-Ss1. 1 -v,.` "1*^*-S-. . ' TTl : *. "" ' " \nV*vV- .. v *.. -* ; ; . f "* * * V** *,i . ^vtha;'th^sa^wh3ch'i':Ta.g'very necessary*'*" Hoy, we can do train- -V'J.lig'br attempt, to--.da 'training in-two-different ways*' We ean 7;igiV:V5^v... * aaha.'-.it,-ah 'infomatiTe' sort of'thing*" We... can -start but b7 ' ;?.['>* ^' - . .. or ^8 can do it tile otiier ray. T7e car. ae their help in f* * /.j / determining what wa are up against, and what we ought to do to correct it. Take one of the craft instructors, for example. Here . comes .a beginner in who is going to be a -wider. You can get this welder to go through a course in welding and you Just .heard, that a few moments ago, and the amount of eye flashes- which are suffered in the shipyards, and that the biggest percentage of them oocurred to those who had Just finished a course in welding* ; In other words, it was obrlous safety had not been in- ' ` . * .. .. eluded* Hop, there may be a reason for that, and one of the *. * . . reasons is maybe that the welding superintendent, or the weld0 , ' \ 'lug superYiscr'was not asked in to help work out a program for teaching welders*. Consequently, somebody in a school up- v\ ; . . town, or .somebody in a school someplace else worked up a ' 7-` program for teaching weldars and all he thought about was that 7 there -was a" certain seam that had to be welded, for in hori- sbataX' posit ion,- and then, in a vertical posit ion ^ and in an . T oVdihead positian,"and so all he did was to train those people /to weld thoae Beams under those- conditions in those positions, ^'Hand-it -no-rcr-cccurrcd to-, him when-they--; t out of there, where" ft."''-*v<?, iv.S.'.f'.'i -r--. '.`V..." - -... ^'thay^are act surrounded by_a booth with a curtain in the back * * < ./* - 7.*?* --* ^*# ;.m>." .*.* "*.* **, .'*.*.- * j, .** - . v. - :' -:^of?-thCT* 'and on to-a platform'there welders are working all around''thea^that thoy- would not know* boor to take care of them- ... \ 8 el TO 6 tell, if we want to oomeot those situations/.maybe we had better get the welding department to get in there with us to help us cork out a pro gran for the proper training of people to he able to do "tile things which are required, once they get into the shipyards- If we do that, it means that * ** * \' the safety department will come to the training department, *. * ** , and the two of them will get together, and pull in the weld- . , \ * ing department^ and* the welding department and the safet7 department and the training department'will work out a method .which, will include safety practices, safety hazards, safety | .. . . -> -. * procedures, as well as the technique, or the technical side ! 4 * * * * . of welding- Does that check? ' `* ` r, ' 4 * , . .. #* ' 4- ` . ** How, one'of the ways in which the safety engineers and ; the doctors,' and somehow or another .1 am speaking now of the fellow who has been around warioua shipyards as a shipyard .employee," one of the things"that we run into is that very ' fow people know the company doctor- Does that check? Very few people know the. company dootcr. About the. only contact j '.that the nan night'hare with the medical end of it, or the :~kgalth..end of it'ia Aen he' hay~a~ burn, cr a flash",:' or.' some" accident that brings 'him to the firsfc-a'id station*' That' is - '-Vv.-:,, , .'his first contact.'; .'Elba he;..gcta ia. th3re,.thore-is a young :-':v' t '.'woman, who'taias a record of what .happenod,..to him, and another >.':nurso finest .hint up in; a hurry*'- ana ho.'is*, on-hia.- way out,- and! that lias been Ills only c02.Cs.ct so Tar as health is the ehip-- 1 yard Is concerned. . ' Ij i.t other tines he nay cone Into first-aid because he ! .' ' ) . nay hare a Ter7 sore throat. How, you who are on a monthly salary, would probably go hone on account of that sore throat .. ' ' I taean. It is possible that he night, but if he is on an. ; ; hourly basis, he will-not want- to go-hone, because he_sll ; . . -i not want to lose the dayTs pay, and so they swab his'throat.!. They are beginning to do it , nore and nore '. new. ' I hare heard quite a bit of discussion already as to .* .;: * whether it was good practice for the first-aid to do some- i ; * I ` thing-for a nan which db.es not inyolre an industrial Injury.: . ' I hare heard discussions pro and con with the predominating - note aeening to be that we really ought to t&he care of the fellow, although It Is a non-industrial injury, because it will help us to get^acae wbrh out of that nan that we would " not get otherwise. -In other'words, he`would go home, if he :.v.,v.... -'r :..r/: * \ .. : . were'no,t* siren thatt a ttention* ' * * v:`; Still, whoa the safety'and health standards are being set up it will be a little bit easier to wori up a setup of ^and 'those'reGpo'nnible for'oafety in-the.shipyards, will'go t "`""the-.'auperrisorn' who'are. directly^ inrolred, for .the correctic .* '.* y..*i#'t:.1 / r> . . individuals to their toy, why . \' .. worh out all of the difficulties that ., . , they cannot do those things, and then. .* ,, . lie Ter 51 t la. ' i ! i . each one of those difficulties, or obstacles, they wori out i' * . '* i a specific solution. Safety and health are' certain pro due- ' tioa'objectives, aren't "they?'' "7e-can call on- the--superwi^or: . `. N ** I to help us in worfcing out' why some of these objectives are difficult to attain. - . * *. . . * ' # ..la cutting doxm lost.tine, accidents, for instance, you! will be inproving production, and when you are able to show ! that-to the supervisors, they will begin'to shoe"you all-hind . '\ i of reasons uhy -mat you`are suggesting would be inpossible tc . > I * . do-. However, then they would begin to thiah about the .natter jand goever all of the worh, and wori outmat they believe *. . - *. -- - i! would be a' way cf getting- around every one of those obstacles * and then they were through thare is not a safety engineer in .* **"** * . ' * ,' . *1 .the yard, or in' any yard,' that would not have run across a. .- '-great nuaber of things which he otherwise would have .cver- ' VI:* ' - r ` 1' ' ; loohed, which will help' hia to'do 'a bettor safety Job in .- * :V:: -*. that yard. - . ' * - . ^.-'Shat elsa hava wef Those supervisors who helped hia *rwtr-jv batt! 'jaragrftWj' by' sone hn.n-.rda uhichj have previously been.overlooked, and then by worhiug out sone - ... ... , . ^ ... . .. ; --.r.-. "v ` :*.* soluticnn for each one- cf those hazards, each, one cf those \ >< froa'then-'os,, wtruld.'bw safety nindod- EhyT Because safe' *.*. ^ <. * I ' < " ' *. *. f .'* . *v .* ' * t hao*becone.'their"baby*. Doeathat 'chechf ' . * ; Bow, there 1s another group here whoa we hare not nen- tloned a`great doal about* and that la the labor management committee* those people who represent the labor management .comsittoe* flow, th? Idea of tho labor management committee . * l waa to help push production* to help cut cut the things that * .* * * *' , ., * i' causes loss of production, &ndr-^ubsttute"fcr"then methods""', which will help production* ". ... I How, re- can. do two. things with labor management commit . .* i \ tees. Fe can get then to deciding what hind of a poster ; i , ** *" *. i would be the beat to place out in the yard; we en set them." . . '* tc doing any number of things which would not""Infringe on i j * management1 s prerogative in running the yard, because perhaps . .' . ." - `I in seme cases we may b.e afraid that they will tahe some cf I ; - . ' * * . . ; . - iI cur prerogatives and so- we will try to heep them from werh-- j lag oh anything which will`involve some sort of a decision, j .. v.* > ' ' ' . or ww.eaa pufup- bone of.these things pertaining to safety j ha sards', to then, and ash their help in developing what those1 ' * - r*."- O .* . ' .- .| *ha* sar d s- t.o` * s' a** fe' ty and* hea l.t.h .reall. y are, and believe se thars are plenty* '\ -**\* * * . .*- *v .*-r. . --; /*. . * *.*'. *. ' * * . .* - happen to-innw of one shipyard, in which at .a labor * ' . jnanagenant cccgittoe meeting, -tho subject or tin cups ease j up.'iar/which.the'`caterer; had, a.'lot' of -wagons around the yard,; ;.* ,v;.-.v *.*. i . j and.\they. werw serving coffee 'in tin cups with rolled edges l * jT r-J * *. ! ' '* ` ' * . ** * J .underneath;* ^Eavo- you over chochad..to oes hem -those tin cups; * .. . *, .* v** . . , w . . .*. 1/ *< . * * { : v ." . j `amt unshod? .2a. you hncer how they ara-cashcdT ffeXX, if you I Os O3 ever loohcd at then. .washing then, you would nevdr hale a t drinh out oif those cup a again. That la tho way they arc " ` waphed, and that la the. way thousands of nen have to drlni *. * ' '. ( * .* , their coffee out of those tin crops. That .la.thy quite a 1! j ` - .' I large percentage, of sore mouths were developing in tho yard.1 *_ . 'The labor-management .committee in that, yard-tool that- V- ' ' / . ' into consideration, and they mado a report on it. and .for a ! J ! -I brief period, a couple of days, three or four, perhaps, the j men were served paper cups, but after'three or four days,' the tin cups were bach again, and nobody did anything about ' .* * * * * ' - * - *' ' * . . * * +m * * . * . That la an 'illustration, of -how in -the safety and health ' * * * end of it there should ba- a closer tie-in between labor- ! . * *'***'. v* ' * . .. s . management eomnittaes and tho health officers, or those who '^ara responsible for the health end of the shipyard and also `-..-'the safety engineers. Boca that chech? - . . J.yVe eight be pretty safe in.saying that unless you.safety .'.'-.engineers.and unless you'doctors aaho a setup through which you can'utilise the training facilities In..that yard, to actually put the problems right up to tho Hen- themselves, i ' don*t-.^eVua:try.;'ta put all.of. ^r-,,:!;.-:.^`U/Z5-'r''~lri tha problems * up - to. 'thea, '' ' but * - '--put up'fc thW'datiyou ore trying'to accomplish in the yard,! and then'ash' thru*to toll' yorrthe. reasons *hy you wontt .; accomplish, it*! and`then; .still hold yoursolvas in chad and . * f. . * '* **,.. *t . ' * : . -/ 36hs (V `* ' . 54 1 ` to figure out for you the best way of getting around each . . .- . one of those reasons, uhy 70U cannot reach, that safety or l t ! i health objective, and you will cone up with two things. Tou ! . '' * .' i will cone up with sons hazards which you hare previously ! overlooked; you trill .cone up with some nethods of solving | those hazards or getting around then, which you have pre- ` ' * ' . viously overlooked, and the second big thing is that you 1 ' !i will have that shipyard organization coapletely behind you * mm in your efforts to naks the yard safer, and nore healthful. _ . * . '- . -- *. . iI That neans that you trill be taking the brake -off production, 1 ' '* 'I which is, put there by accidents and sub-nomal health. Shank / you very nuch* ' (Applauds) . * '\. * " CEAIRHAH EI3G-: Sou, X think one of the worst crises i \'that*a'*nyco*nferencIe'.co-n*aita*.is to . overburden *conferences *' ! uith. too such talk* and too such naterial at one tine. Well, tre will aeet again this afternoon at two o`Tclock. There' is ! ' -only one other it an that-I think we should go into this . ` .abraing* and. that is' with relation to statistics. How, . * statistics are-the-bans'of sost production Benrs lives. ` e _______ . X ' * .. Vhcar about- all of .the'questionnaires that are out from Govoruacnt* agencies'with- respect to then.-' Oh.'-the safety pro-i -4-* -* --J.*. -: **7- . ' ` . . .1[ ** grn. ar you'will, fi. nd'a, : <fer. n.-which, we \ hope can- be mtade-t standard!J `* i * * :v.. --v.:*/-- I y-.'sed. fer aH# statistic a In.the shipyards, that arc represented ! , ! in1'the''Sarliiafl^avy pro gran.~ * '* . \ **-**. ;; ; , v .* . . ^. # ^ . * --t %**">*. --'L *: ..->*-.^'.*'Y *** * T7w h* avoA-'h. .f--lr. c- 'w; *ft*,h *us 4 * **'. f.- - /.V-.J *A to*dK.a-y,.v*.H.*t.' vi *- .H.a n * K m`?ais.. c *cr* is. o_r.*f th*el.-.<* * ,"* '**'' ,v.' *" r 3* r.*' ** - '**'*'* t*' * " - ' '. 00 Bureau of Labor Statistics, who la trilling and desirous of extending the full cooperation of that Bureau to our group. 4' * .* ' * . How, .let ae say'this: There is going to be no- yardstick thereby we can gauge the proficiency of one yard against the t laxity of another, unless we hare our statistical data on .the ease basis, or on the sane basic plan. We do not want to go into a ramified and diverse statistical exploration, but | what we do need, though* and what we will ash you- to give :your attention to this afternoon is .the study of the s tat is- ! ticsl forms that you will find attached to your safety nlni- bos standards. *` *' .ft.. . * Before we go into the huddle this afternoon, and so tha yon will hnowHr. Easscrls, 1 would lihe to ash him to corns' \ *. . .* '."** * ' tip here and say hello to 70U, and' tellyou in brief Just shat j .the'story on statistics is. . ' . " , HR. KAJC EiSSOBIS'j ' X case up here primarily to sit in .* ;* * * * *. * cn the discuasiena in connection with, tha forms that have ***.'* f > . ' .'*'* ' ' * .* * ** 'been suggested, to get your .reactions to them. X want to ' sew whether or not you have any suggestions for their - lrrorove- v. *' .v . '1 . nest so, that, they will give ua- a. little bettor'indication- of [ what ^cauneg accidents-'In. .tha yards, and* how we ..can better -'hewp trade of that in happening* * I da not want to burden you - ' - with any diacusaion- of'the datajig on the form, because we .- will go into that this.'afternoon* T7o of the Department of *\ . * **.* /`. \ *' ./,.*7 . ;**'' *. * . * . . . * . *`. * Labor,] and specifically tho Bureau of Labor Statistics, are . . ,-'w;v. .* -.'i' V. v-';^' iv * J^ *,<*. /, V. ,'*'^. I**t,s . ^' * 7 . f* ** . . f * ' *.* , ; * .* 9. Yery happy to he of service la this connection, and to ass. In tfao derelopuent or tho type of information which Trill he # ` both you la the yards and ths people in the Haritlne Co'aais sion, and other Gorernaental agencies, to inow. how the yard are coning along with, the safety program and through the sediun of 'statistics, to indicate to th.ea the, danger signals v ,* , m. m the sore spots, to* which they can in turn direct their' attar. tdon.' ' . . X want to assure you of one thing. I haVe no use for * statistics as such. They are valuable to us only for- the sane reason that they are. waitable and should be valuable to you, and that is'as signs, or danger signals, or as tests, of good perfcrnsnce. Bow, to-tho extent that they can per-. fora that function, "they can be of* value, and ue trill do the utuost to put at your disphsal the' facilities that we have.. To .the extant that they are of no -particular Talus to you, X; ,: * J want .to assure you thht we will be tho last one to burden you * '.*** * ' . ..** *"*. ** * .* * * ** with anything that will have no use' to either you or us. you very nuch. (Applause) . . - ' " * .*:. ... CEMH2IAH ElSCri How, we aro.- running toward tha .-tna* _rr tho noraing'seoaionl^'-X thinh we; ought to hatre & resune new to sc-o exactly' there wa have gone, * and what has happened. Firs ..a. . .;... , f* - \ *. ' ' -x -!.V* ; # r.' t . .` 'you hare had a group of'ncn who haYe node a'tour of thin *- . * * \/J# ` ... * * * * ** . ' . : '. . * country to ascertain what thor facts arc,; and present,, to 'you . ./thoir`reactions *aa to` that' in needed with, respect to' health and safety and training, te haTe- received the cooperatlc of persons oho aro outstanding in their line with respect to the developaent of this program. te cant now to go in', a phase whereby everybody 0111 actively participate in the formulation of these standards, and that vilijsncnr^-thia afternoon when -re-bresh up into too groups, one from the . . ^* .. . . *. ,, * . ^ nodical sldo, and one from the health side. . Dr* Drinier will be in charge of the discussion from the medical side, and Hr. Roche from, the safety side. Hoc, there is one thing I would lihe to ash' all of tho.se tho hav not done, and be sure to da, because we rant a couplets * record of this 1- * registration* * conference, * If you have \ and that 1s with respect to ,. not filled out a card showing * *.** . * . that you are here, aad giving us the data concerning your "* . eonpany, address,.' at cetera, I hope that you will do so, .be-; eausa re would be very happy to have that information. ' V'.~'-'-.vX want'to say'that the attention has been given this aorring, and "the rreefiption that has been, given to those of ' m ^ .V ,i V* ,. * * * .* ' f. * .ua- who have opohea has-'boon something that brings to me k ' .great <*<****, ^ ---r 'thnt wriH pull any ^ punchoc- this afternoon*'Shu- only ray that wo in this- country V r.%\ ^ -' Vv:. *.; *V> '* - * /V'- :v*: :* * . '* '"get by, and develop things, in. by having' our cm Ideas clearly prososrtcd**' Xf we do not agree with- a thing, at-least here in V i v.*` we ha vw bo an able to progress la the oaj that tro hare. * So, roll up roar sleeves, and get down to wori thi3 afternoon, aad lot us bring out cf 'this sone roal practical \ .' . \ constructive standards that ulll be of benefit to the nilli . V` , sen who trill soon be vorilng In the shipyards. The attenti that Is glv_en-nen *s health--Iil thyarued services is very, very pronoun dad* T7e can do no leas for those who are"in the Amy, and the sen who arc baching the services up too, be cause this'trar unllhe any other war, presents a hose front that Is nore lnportant than any other hone front ever has .. ' ; i b-een In the history of the world* This is a nechanined war, : - aa. d the vons3 # tho prov'id* e. th* e. ns;chine% a and the instmse.ntall- j: *' * * tics of transportation to get the sachines where they are - i i \V needed to. partic*ipa' te * in ths war . la very lnportan t, and everyI one of you are participating in this just as .nuch as If you ! . *, ' were out there on the .front lines with a Garand rifle. . " Sow, again I want to ihanh you for the attentiou that has been'given to everyone, and'although after conferences . i a tine cones then- we have to got down to deshs again and V* . * *. stoady. things that are possibly dry, nevertheless, tha out- --cone'cf it-unrb^southing, X thialc, if we give sufficient 1 -attention to it* that you. trill be proud cf X call your .. attention, again to'tha oshlhita that'are here that ullX be. '' . . r. . ` ' .-v-v -v- - - . .* * . --.. .. ' . 'ready, fes* Inspection, and X hape that you ulll enjoy the .. deaenstrabiona that have been prepared for you*. . .. . -- - - - . ' * . . VV;. * *2**^ * ... /**. * ...*** - , * * *' * ->< ^ "V ' i*--*i* ` '.* ' / ' . . /* W? - v.-.* - * k }Iafl Start Ho, 1 page UNITED STATES MARITIME COMMISSION V MEETING IS:REGARD TO THE HUiUIDII STANDARDS F.OR THE CONTROL OP HEALTH IN CONTRACT SEE?j XARDS OP THE NARITEIS COMMISSION ' AND HATT. Held la the American Room, Hotel LaSalle, Chicago, *0 Illinois, oa Honday, December 7, 1942, at too o'clock p.m. , Dr.-Philip Drinker, Department of Industrial Hygiene, School of Public Health, Harvard University, Boston, Hassachusetts, > .* * ?i5 presiding* m .. * .** * S --A'.'.V-'.: o -- . ./ . ' j'--.':' . .. . . . p* . . .CHAIRMAN BRISKER: Gentlemen,. re rant to discuss in soce , > |' .-detail the suggestions for the so-called medical standards, *' H--'. -\.r* V-... . ' and then re rant to give you some short demonstrations oh . - * ,'|'.:.8oae particular'elements re rant to bring out, 'and it Is our ? hope- that this xrill.be Ter7` Informal so re can break In and . ' . .j .'ask questions or make `suggestions as vs go along. -' ' * . Jott all have. copies-'of this? If not, re rill' give ' * . "I-*-jott soma marc; this minimum standards for the control of 01 DR. F. RIEKS, (Medical Director, Oregon Shipbuilding Corporation, Portland* Oregor): You have too few clerks on that, Tor one thing. . ' CHAIRMAN DRINKER: Too few clerks? "' DR. RISKY: I think so. . ' * . * ' ` -''CHAIRMAN DRINKER: How- about ambulance facilities, l_s . ** r ']IilIl ' ` that all right? ' \ `. * II * . DR. D. A. HcCCY,(Liberty Mutual Insurance Company, i! Hedical Researoh, Industrial Division, Boston, Massachusetts): ffhy not have instead-of a passenger car a station wagon? 5 . ' CHAIRMAN DRINKER: Because we were not sure we could get it. If tre' could get a station wagon, we will put it in. It ; . ' '` . Is a good suggestion. You mean that as a stand-by? - j DR.' UcCOY: That is right. Doesn't the Army or Havy or | the Maritime Commission have authority to pick up such things 5 V . ' '' ' r;/; . /' ' ; from the public? '`i\ -j /.> CHAIRMAN DUSKER: -We can get them. ' _ j DR. McCC^: . You can get them? . ' ' . j C'\'- CHAIRMAN DRISKERr .` Yes,, within' reason. That is a good : suggeotion.Are there any'other suggestions in that first ' \\ .'.. ry'*---r* **1"~m ` x.^'H~ *'!****'4 **"v /~.*l~*.?r*'- C, * **r'r T..-/>~ 1 '*. *'.; ; ** * t ,i*--; * * * j- <* **- ' - * . J-.-' part,'--undarTpersonnel?.'- vVv'*;;;-;.. ". : * ' ^. *s .. . ,EL.''LESTER. P BECK, (Chief, "Davy Insurance Division, -.* rv r ;yy-': %:-v /'.vv**:''-: -.Office of. Procurement and Material, TTsshihgton, D. C.J: ' men. that; are * ***. /, *-* * bit- later. Could' .. / 3h we postpone that? _. 61 UR. SECS: It does have a direct effect on the nurber of doctors per thousand ecployees, ! - CHAIB21AN DRIKSER: I agree with you, but that will cone a-little later. . ; . HR. LOOTS S. RELLZR, 4The--Ingalls--Shipbuilding Sorp-., --- - jt; Pascagoula, Mississippi): In our yard we use a station wagon inside the yard to detraat attention, and when the case goes out of`the yard we have a regular anbulance, which is used at . ( apply to me for work hare been drug addicts and sen who hav made absolute failures of their lives. How, those nen are inadequate. They are not the type of nen we want. ' Is it possible in sons way to get some younger meru*or men that would give up their praotice, to come as^H-time men? The l men are worked to death. They make three hime-s-.aa- mu-oh-or- . . * l four times as much as they would on an all-tine Job, and it I. `' ' !i is practically impossible to get men for full-time Jots. ii . *^ . * . [ CHAIRMAN URXNhhR: That sane situation applies to quite if * jj a few yards now. jj .* * .. ` . - 'BE. CROFT: la thera any solution to it? . a. j; * CHAIRMAN DRUIHZR: TJ.e- think there is. Some of us do not think that the distribution of doctors to the forces has beer. j: quite as-fair as it' should be,-in view of the shipbuilding l pro gram j^and aone of the, other manufacturers T^and we hope to get some of them back again, 'frankly. - . | s - UR.CROFTOur part of thi_ country has been rather . .jj liberal*'' '.In fact//are have gone over our quota. I am not n -1 ; industrial surgeon.; _ X am.-Just simply a surgeon that went vj --In to-take .care .of. the injured men, and now this whole-prob- lea, is thrown in pj ?np. take--care-o-f--the-whole buslnea'a~ _ / .can help take j'vVlvi'V.J. CHAIRMAN DRI2XZR:..." TTo. saw-' the same: situation in `v*.* *;*'.***'-*** .*J*.^*'' **v ** ' * T .* #* * 5k r - 1 right out and said that manufacturing centers like ftew fork, , Uassachusetts, Heir Jersey and Illinois, and so on, are the ones that are. not over their quota, and sone of the Southern * * . , states, generally, are way over, and they have been depleted in doctors as & result, and the manufacturing states have not subscribed their quota. Some sort of a redistrl-ctlng is , - .. inevitable. ' I Imagine that is one of the Jobs_that'Ur. UcHut has Just had landed in his lap. X do not* think there is anybody today who can say what the solution is' going to be, *.***. * * ;but we 'are thoroughly aware of it, and re are also aware ' n 4 . - . - . that there -ars quite a far yards that cannot live up to these suggestions of persolxnel. Xou simply cannot get them j. * , * ' # /* . * for.exactly the reason you gave. * Ve have seen'two or three . " *'**'* ** . x\ yards in precisely the situation you have, where they have * surgeons- who have done no industrial work at all, but have ' ti. !" 'gone,'-in to help;because they know, help is needed. '' . - - X know .that does not answer your question, but if you '' could get-them, is'this''areasonable distribution of per' sonneITt77* >?? *' "f'V-3JIL. S. Km. GARFIELD* * tHlciurand Shipyards, Vancouver' * when X- 65: . .' CHAJRSAB DRUTEER: I know that has keen suggested Tor ' several of the Gulf states .where there is a shortage in the ; ' ' . i naritine and nary yards, to reassign sane doctors from either ' ' the-Public Health Service, or the Army or the Kavy. j .j li-.. . " HR. RSLLZH: They won't, do that. . . 'i CEgRaAlT .DRIKSEH: 1 think they will.' ' '' j . HR. RSLLER: The Havy won't,- because we hare a doctor : down there taking care of about 'four hundred soldiers, and * ' *^ ' -. we would like to borrow his to take care of physicals, and t 1 j | he wants to cone in, end he is just sitting around twiddling ' ........ " `. - * - ;' ' ' his fingers, and we can't get him to cone. '` i _ * - DR. GARFIELD: The Public Eealth Department said they | ^ ' j would if the Haritine Connission requested then to. - j ` ^CEAXEUIAH BRJHZZR: I know that, too* ' ' .> ^?:*CEAXH!A8 PRIHHSl:.. Tea, . -v:: : V | BSCS:- /.JI, would Just like to volunteer, 'as a matter . I', of'information,' that the Davy .Department has developed and . | Trill/ have available standard, sets of hospital plans in "the yardsif. you. wan^jto-Jxav^ti^^ 'Safe' been worked out . 66 ( sstion- of the. disapproval, of the.plans. It is a question of getting the necessary approval- of dispensing the funds to carry then out. The Kavy has not approved that. /HR. EECZ; I merely have volunteered that as information * . . * to shov that" ve 'should put--together the. p.e.ople vho are con cerned about it, and iho can plan the functions of a hospital, ' ' -I and the hospital being laid out to give the minimum amount ! of space that can be used for the various functions to be .i performed. .. '.*V \ ;v ^ ' \ ' j * . CHAUSIAN DRINKER: I do not .think the yards are lacking! *% .. . *. ** in knowledge of what to do.' It la.the inability to get authorization to do It on these*physical facilities, as far X as the medical ones go.'" . ' Is there any other discussion-on the physiaal facilities? /DR. I*.'. C;; SPENCER, ' (Sledicai Director/ Southeastern Shlp-^- . " ' .! building' Corporation,. and HaoSvoy Shipbuilding Corporation, - . . ; X^.*7- ' -. - ..... . . . Savannah, Georgia): z* X. would like`"to ask for some recommenda tion in regard to- sex aad'`color.'*: t. * . ** * v. '-.* * * ** . -: ` . ` .** ' - - * quest,. at least, a egrtgation of-colorT----* ... -- ---- - ..." CHAT?.HAN ERINZZR: ` I. do-aot aee any- way, to evade it, J f` ** * Too. have the yard, and that la where we want the' yard. Tie ;| * are not in a.'position to say yon should or you should not do ..it,. with the tradition of. the neighborhood. Ton would have v- -T" _ ,:.to do it-that tray. - 3C- thish we havT to "accept it as we find it* % ..We agw ree-..with. 4 * ",.j --DR.` W. ' J.. HUH, (Delta Shipbuilding Conrpany, Hew Orlsar Louisiana): Are the Earitine Go miss ion going to request that these notes you have here he the ai.ni wnm requirenents o | *' j the. yard? : - ;7 ]: . . ' . rv. * .V-:T/*. /*'. *' # -. -'CEAIBSAH DRIHSEH: Tea/they are*.'. " . V- * * 1 ?EH*-'RUH:The reason I ash that, is ye do not have anj- ; ' i.j-V.thing :lihe what you 'are ashing for here. . We have the docto- *\ **'*;" * f %., w*. ~ * ** T. ' X. +**'*'\-- -*" . - *......%........* .*** ~ *. . : . * ' * ! hut we have, not; these ether facilities* . W.e -also Just recen ''slzr eoapletad. our new, first- aid 'station,, hut it does not coul close .to neasurins up- .ha-your minisraa' standards, here. 'Of 103c 5 that? .. ! DR. h; Tha Vancouver yard Is probably the busiest '.4 _, . ` } '-'one In our area, and that Is solved in.-this vay: 37e are out 3 * *** _ * ^ -* ; * * ...... ^ l --''tins vhat ve choose tc call sub-stations on-the va-^s, one I . v ;. _ or.tuo cn the vays, depending on the nunber of ways. *. 1*' ,- t.'M-r iR tr*r in the Oregon.and. The * There -Brill be one in Vancouver cn the outfitting, one in the . ' , asaenbly 'and plate shops. ' Ten can get away fres the diffi culty of distance., and I thirh you -arill find in those that , ; v-'.'H --a-e the greatest in papulation that that urill tans the load ` -`.off ths"'nan station*" In other 'trords, use your snail station screening stations, probably, vith a nurse at each station /" DR. HIT 2ou are talking of a first aid dispensary A. - I '` / '` In the yard- These are all-out-patients. . * .*%. * , (/ * V . T- CHAI3!IAK> DRIHTSRS No, that is not what I near. . *;* jj.'A, vvA*. EH- HcCCY: . IT you hare anything separated, it should A ". ..-A"I'-Ahe'outside of the yards, and that will he an additional ez- " ' - j. Apense-A .Thej canJ t get-the aen- ins-i-do the-yards-; ... A | A-T'AA DR." SPENCER: 'I hare cade a reco emendation to the fire `A | ''7 v **' ** -'A; ' ` . .. - A:t-'where. I wort that the? build a" dia'pensary outside the fence * Ij r*.!* ' ' - `. " ' jj "* so the .out-patient can cone in and get treatsent without - A ''A' 'A'entehing tha yard, and hy .putting a guard at the inner door - A 7 only, .those that return'to- the yard'hare to cone hack insid.*e.4i - A7 AvA1v| A;-`to do' that.'thecaeIres. .' It would '. [ . . .. . . : - 1 -- v it. ___ _____ x ____ ` _ ' ' * 3 M , HR.. -0'CCKHZLL: I would like to set, the doctors' opinion: ' E - . I ' - ' `.. ; < .! U .J '- : ; - CHARULAS DHI'HZ?.: ' As far as the Uaritine .* I*. .... r Conniss ion ' . .i ' goe's, they would not hare any opinion. I think it is up to ; ; j. `the indiTidual yards | Jpy (laiser Company, Inc.',-Richmond Shipyard ; '* Richmond," CaIifprnia)_:_^_I-donTt think that the majority '-o^ doctors want'physiotherapists or o'ated paths uu.ling- in --| ,- -v.:^-vV:.vfc.^;v 'C^JA. - ' . .1 I their organisations. We-at ^guly Dam'had' one working with ; , us and we found''him .very"sood. We'.classified him as a jl ............. . . j *I t .'''physiotherapist. ' Ee was not referred to as a doctor at all. ; <*J ' \Ee..-,srafl. very .good' on baci;. cases. X aa sure be reduced our . '* .** :* *.r.! ` * * .** ` * . ,, * ` '- ' Vi' '-.lost'time cases' quite a'hit. ".They hare a little knowledge, ! 1 : .j V-7-'-:3^2rn-ta.?ase-.2-A,--gentlemen, on-the-general questiown cf .| -.itha fora of accident--reports-, and the- Hie* Hr. - Roche trill '.J'.'''take .Tip with the safety engineers this subject, and he is '.S 4- do ins' it now, - I would lihe to hare-us evade that question if we- can.The fora he has I thirh will satisfy any^pf you J for coapleteness,-.-flnd-if^we-^onf-ine our-diacussign~j^,'"U'e,ccrds ; ; / "l"' in. general'to those -that apply purely'to the medical' side, it' .would be'better now. ' Xs there any discussion on these items i- 5n *. -on. the records and forms? e have no defense at nil for the * C-~ i- V-' ` \ ` ~ I.* present Haritine-records. The sooner they are .done away with, ... V . . . .* ; . I i . the' h a*u-*ui..e.r-;w:V e-w^illVb...--l-fe' : "I ."r*".:*-*. * *: ' .: i' ;* ion of X-nay equipment, say. ' ir ah' -the'_.top'' 'ofT Page 2-Ar an 2-r; unit for' yards employing ' V o;?/'. Z `r r lsh * +i* Coast, can. do it. . .S / . K i D ^ * J^ n/- * 5-- . . "iie interchange of accident'reports, say/ under Item 6 ( f -VrV jj. '. |on Page 2-A, that'is in the yards tre" hare seen, has been not . 'X 'near as good as it ought to he. ' We hope the inordveuent in <\ -.'i A ;.' -'- .. - the record forms trill help, hut the record forms, as tre four; thesr, in'such yards as tre investigated in carty cases have ' ... :. .j -.been 'extremely faulty irith-e-very- great-lachr-of interchange Ou-ol * V. ; vjj-'- between the safety and the.medical groups not hepg reported j "hack fast enough^ ~ Let us go on to the examinations. We do not say the * \^/ employment of cgjL^ye^ shall depend on a physical exanina- tion.- ' The' labor shortage, is such. that I did not thinh there ' v^> J:j`| w----** V. ;,* . V* .-. .  ' 3 union nenbers are unable to be eicplayed through the depres- ' ' *' *.' * .** .V* '- ( , ' ^ ;. ,* . .." . * ' * . . ; elan, or partly so, because of physical disability. They h ; -long since' exhansted the regular union nesbers, and tre find -> ty tw~|' *>a' ttrii fin nenbers are agreeable not to pre-enployner.t,'>*'or^ ' S'.*. . ' --tg-s. ` '' " ' " 'iV.V-.jj. /rather, pre-placesent physical examinations., .1 raise the ' 'V*vV-.*'|-'V-pint nerely. for.'discussion'that-ue-find ourselfes nor 0MW 4 W /' , |. 'of .ghat tre choose .to call the helper classifications.' In j--'. other gorda," our upgrading cystea has been such that re have ' i '.`perhaps an excess _cf Journeymen workmen.. The pre-placeaent .. / . . rh . . ; w?- - ~ *.*.* * 4;V *. ' ` *%:.t . *. ' * .*** I-" * . . ' # * *..* < * * . _|.....^exaalnation hag,/trill h? a sorting process, `pretty such, to ' -- -- -. _ heavier work. . . on hav long our cper~ % / hast. an agreement that will accept a Journeyman rrcs any other ? ** ' - I! craft,-and that-'is the machinists. As an example, if you \ taie a* man who was an operating engineer running a crane and .ii , *#*>.'* '* * . * 1 \* j after examination decided he was not physically able to run . 1 ii ` . that crane and you were moving him to run another Job, that - ; i- .' ' . ' ' r '.-.would necessitate his. Joining another union and paying another --initiation." f e e ' r ' ."r '. ' ' -V ' " *' " ~ '7. :* . . . - h-*- `'`IN ''. ' ''..I'. .' ' ' / ... i '.:* CEAIHKAN DRIH2ZR: We.are well aware of that. 'We under- . . -*. * V'* . * * * . ^ I stand the difficulties, and possibly even some misunderstand . ; ins, or even turmoil this suggestion will cause,, but we still thlnh it ought' to be done. ' We have talhed with the A. F. of' '**. L* officials, and they have been more than cordial to the j. suggestion,' and'we havs hopes that-'we can show the union . : '''leaders' who '.are responsible for. that clause that Dr. Riele' ,.T \t * ./V i eited, Jahd that this gentlemen* Just cited,' that it will be i union to' another^ _X;believe you will filnndd most of the unions *-V; vviItV..*r*::` *v.f r. * -*r* *:,*v'r,*-* V* . * Y* . '*t - * .*' *. . ** * ** ''./working' on.' the .West.Coast "agree'that they do not take initia-  selves as to the magnitude of the problem and the dim- ' - i-' - . .' ' - .jj cult Is s of setting. It through. .We Btlll thinh. it ought to go - 'i'I. * . . 2 through-*- , : v- >. ? .. ` .* hr. T70CDELL: ' Hj point is', .as far as the union Is con- . ' li cemed,. you say a'nan nay he ruled out as a crane operator, '' I! ' - - 'V ' ' * * '' : 'It......................... - .. ' . ; -land I.say' that 'if,he went bach to his union, and told then jj-thn* ^uflliry as that*,' he would not be-out. He" ' . " .-j'-- . . . ' t night he alassed as a laborer, or something of that hind. p Xou. are "speahing of a .case where a nan is-the nenber of a * i union, .^e -have not go so many of those now. They are all : i- % a . .. * , ... - . ... . . coning in fron the outside, and the number of permanent aea- >r. *.V-' r .7 . '. ' - ' ' .. . bers of the union that would, be unfit to worh on that classi - it . V fication. are so. minute I do not thinh. it is a'real, problem. -Jz HR. - 0' COHHELL: If. you'are going to give an examination ** . --*. -nT _y.v** w * * *. vJl;'.* *! * \ ' *. * ` '*. ' "* . < v. *_ v ___ ^ : ________ *.- ...* . _ x . <___^________ ^ v _________ * ; ji .J*. * HAIBHAH EKE3Z2R:/'That..is the next item. That'is' at . .. x*: -.f?* < ..., ^..ir - w-'Jw/v.. , w-. .. .. v**1/.**;'*'7 .** .. *..^* v /'\w` -r the:.bo-ttoa of Sage 2X "Periodic' chach examinations shall be ................ v.y.* -,-v.r--x -rr'*.-r: 2Qk 7I 0w ...j.-. . . :' ' . jj nr-d X-ray work, 'and paint sprayers." . > ** * ' * \ * .\i * ' S :;.r Purposely we did not try to enumerate then all, 'because ' - '.J we cantt, and because of the different things that go on in : . different yards, but the general thought is that those chsch- ,,g?' examinations, in fact, ought to be given by the yard phy-' --\ *. sioiarts-irr cooperation" with-the 'saf etyniepsrtarent ahd'_anags- ' ' ' .. jj'"';.'ment ought to state what Jobs are to have these check-up ex-' . 5 aginations. In our opinion, not having then now Is working . - - * V-. .. - . ; . : .-.-ii labor a great deal of ham. I do not think labor quite re- ; . .'-..-.I > V.-'-., : ., -. ! ' ' ' : 'alines how such ham>' -"Besides,' the most important point from that point of view is' the. can power. Ve just cannot afford * - * * . ' ` -; ; to go along doing the way we are now. It does-.not natter v r'VCwhat-'we' think we. have to do.v tfe will welcome some discussion . :: . ... . ............. _ ..... . PHIGIi..' Our. problem.' is ' th.` "' ...-- ' ;.(^amund two thousand'per cent every three mbnths^ and we do r('."/. p-rre-employment ^examinations Ee .would either have to quit "i-*. iv./ M-'. . .. . c ..... Y\.';'-r7v*ii:'.:Ythe pre-employment examinations to. do the other, or. else we -r.i: a.r ' -V-':;. -7 wl TV ta. nntll -tS**.'fcrr--i/i'w ' . .* o2 23k ( tout* Job ayd that Is ay Job, - and it took se several months I to find it. out, *It is a phyaicianrs`duty, and there 13 no .:...'on. that I knou of,. including the unions,-who can objeot to * '.vj\*r, *. . v* * , ** vt,**, '- *,***.. . . * v - , . *.**.*.*.*. r. ^ % . . r*r. that policy,- '-It Is an odd .situation that you have to us.it, */ V [> until 'an epileptic has'an attack, in'front of a scaffolding : or in-f-roni of -a- hoist,--or order to 'Igtr'hl Il ' . -go, yet We have.had to do that, and ire have given discharges H .-to, X`should estlnate, fifty nen in one yard who were *< , . -- , ; .. , .. . . * ' ', . ** , * % * epileptics. The. Lord knows- it is hard enough tp keep a | j | vy-r- ~ \ '. . h :..-r =- ..-'`v.} f -working .force therewith' the naterial we are getting, and j. :> jet-, it., is "only, fair'to the large percentage of the men that C,' , ** * ,, "* 'i,*',* * * *1 . ` **^ * S* * *. , ** -.J those people who do not `or are not able to-keep control of ` j .( -J - -f*-*'*` f,'. *' * '* * " "* ~ r~ * ' * ' *-* ' * " *. * r ' **`` j > ; .th enl t.'l aa ' aTI e\*?' 'f, 4 ** a o kr\r*Ttf let. t>e ': . -* "* /. . . ;7 . v^";-;f.h...I.\...and;.kilT a.* hunk-e-r--o-f'sen-belo-tr - hi-n and- get off - scot free- , p; - -llcve that anyone, -cocceny official, union official, or ar.y . `' " * |j '.'/other official'eill object to that particular policy, I do - not believe the Uarltine Comsissiont needs to give ns the ` ::.'./-;V.'l^Viantho'rlt7,,to do that* I thini that is the physicianra Job. ~ . '7-Av..' -'**- >/!'.>-f'' * '.'i-*LurC.. ccco> n^7~ ~Tr~Trr ^ TjlL . / \ry^l;>AISIA2f DRI5KZH: . I hop' _ BIZSS: ` The other point jghlch IX .rraise., and the --i - A'"-.thing prhlch I an alarned about, is this, and the point eras - i . . i.7-;' raised a erhlle ago* ' Hoer many ' '' ' ' pre-placenent'exaninatiens i are: ' .you going to do, in nhich case in hoc sany doctors- da you iI . and: -. . 'i- r*! r? :v`' v' V -Y- Y?*-' Y.; " . - j- !.'enough 'physicians' to do pre-placenent; examinations, and ...periodic : * Y fYthateurpersonnel'' la about-uhah the nlr.tnnn standards are,' t i-Yl* bot.-T.-do not believe-.the rtm load of enaninations ennld . s ' IItI ' i A^i n o'ft* . '\ *; * ' Lare.-to asaune--that . % . . . /* hai -sre. the . ' ** personnel) :. he? S' would you reel, about, that-- item 2,-in a- general cay? :! ../'* ;- Itea 3, * Special Shaminations, rack as X-ray, ' | " '*'' serologic and urinalyses a hall be given la. the individual ! I' case- aa '. indicated and la accordance with local needs, | wa . : I A0 sot "believe there la any need to do that, be- .`cause you willdo-that tay^ay*"'Several yards-* hire "raised '.question or facilities for X-rays*" That is, it.could be * cheaper to have the X-ray there and tahe their oca pictures ,| .- instead of .haring- to ship the men. into torn and save .a very .; .r i.* :* ** ' ' " - ' '* ` considerable delay, and often it could be:such better to aahe- ` .- - -- v * . ' . . . ` .V. j j .the examination themselves right, at the yards., and tahe- the * r' ti. ..'.. cpoicutludr"ersa*ppboecrtaruesqeu.ethsetsy fcroomul.dadnoy iytardbsetftoerr* fu*vnds. \ to do it* '. }' K. fsrA '-- : .... ' . .y .:"*Jj.'--'' --;.y* `" | * * * " | . *!' ^ 1 Se veraa. l ,r .ce* apa ap. *ro. v* eo_ of* that very warmly, and ce ; r*4 .-- * . ; "S9-: . SJcCoy and nyaelf1 were* just .talking about Trh.ath.er * welding fuses ..cause bronchitis ;* * or * Just ^ *-aggrava* te* it. . That is; -j * * ' 4*** *.*'** * * . **. -* "'Just a personal opinion with.se and Dr. HCC07, and .you '-0-111 "' get two aides- cf---it ^wherever jour ure* y _ ~ ~. ; Jit ' v.; .. * .. /-, .' ,, ..' 1 .-.I `thinh probably without exception that chest Z-raya would be/indicated fros a public health standpoint and the /standpoint of the welfare of everybody that coses into a ship- yard. ' I third? there in no question but what prs-enployaent .--.physical examinations are the proper thing to do, and X thi: ^J " w *. %**..; , * * * i.** ** **/ v.. *r* * *T . , . *. . % : r* ,'* * * . **f ,-- f-ifcv Garfield*a point is correct,, that the Maritime Cccula- _ aiont3-prise''duty.is to see that we get the help,, . ` :_/ to. `start, shipping war products r. * +\ * . * .'.*.. >" . 1.;\'.*v*'*vi---***, ^ I ' - V^ r . ^ * and X'thinh. everybody, 'in-' .' *v-. - . . i* '. ' * .. * ` " * V- - ...... 90 ** - 'I -opLzlon-&s..to-'3h2.t-to do.ahout that, and. also the chert-' '.VaS'f 'physicians in''the yards**-..:. *4'.; >.--'-HR, WOODnijL:. .Would that hare to cone fron the Joi: .-'coisnltteer. . - v"i\ * \ . ,, ' . . '' 13RUTSHR: 1 1 ~th4 *>> i ^-Tfnrfra "h .- TV"'':' - : -'T; /. . **_ . -. . . hare it cone froa the Joint cocaittee as representing the physicians la the shipyards, . J X .suggest as a cosaittee Dr, Riehe and Dr, Spencer ^ *' * * *. * ,,. * '* and Dr* Croft, ',. Is that agreeable7 - * . ' :' ^..csorzi .Zes v*/4* * *'; .l*- "# * *' . * , y:-{;:'l4^V5R*V^?KC2R: lea. .DSUSSar ' ?e>ould .ash you, then,' tto con-- " TC* ***V " ' ' * ' 4-'*' " *; ** * *- * - ` . ' * * * ^ **',** --** * ' * 4 ` . *.* ^* * I'' `7' tnt*idfiet*r*-* threfr.th*iTn*<?gns ortnr>*e ,*' the* nshhfSoTr^taa&gPe* of physiciann?st IInt Sary ...... ` ............ ' ' ;** 3/ . statenent as-to . "= \'T. I'' ~ ^hatyou.thlnh'.the Saritine- Conaiasion. and the Favy-ought to ^o;..about.-*tt* too;' pre-placoaent.physicaX'exanlnatioW 4 il-- 92 j triers-It-inyolres..a -Larse-nunber oi'-aeru--In- one-case- there 3M - . * ,'. . ` * : j#* ! jj. trer8-aone--twenty-sea-hilled,. and-the-radio-station-,-the- local Il a: * -'r. a:.. .dio.- station,-bro -. ... .* . .- ad .. cast . v* -that. . tie y ; had. -several . . \. hundred . *. hilled|'.9 and the doctors . started-driring in .froa', as-f ar away as one * , . * . . - - . hundred ailes, .and.hospitals in the local' comnunit-ie8--were "' left^iTithout doctors.\ :. ' . . 4 **** * < ' ^ ^ ** * **,* * *;. ** * _ ... ,, . * ` . " 7./'.',That /brings up'two things; rirat,'that they'need to- hare an understanding with any local radio station that there! - will he no.broadcasts or any disasters, whether they are bonbings, or whether they are exclusions,.- or whaterer they ' * ' * V* .1. . * * K' .% 9 ; 'j sight be, ..except when siren .by authorities; and" secondly. i .1. * * ,, ' - .will, rectatn at their.posts.and not'.cone to the y .;-.:CH!AIa3AH BRISSSRh -The-point-we want t -in.especially shown, under item 4, under air raid precautions., a that' Von. b suro-rotr sra lrtrr4 t.Vi 1 nKnl IO i4 3k S' ' r '*'V WQ 7 do not.' think so* *'*. ***,**.*. . ^ . *,.*. * * . DU* *' ADA1IS: -On the. question, of absenteeism, I should Hi /to hear the' expressions of ease of the other members here* " tfe newer got Into a definite routine "or formula- of -uke-cking ; - that*'.' How- are you. going to know whether these men are off ' from'sickneaa or Just plain cussedness? run Into a eery " tain, type of who wants only ao much money each treek, and / when they earn that mnoh 'money, then they lay off until the .***.*."*. ** . * . V cart week. * X would like to hare an expression as to how you are .going.to check up on thes-e Ben* . * ; ;.;*uaed. to-.he.three daysr but now it Is one day -- to "bring a slin'froa the-doctor.who- treated his saying he was ill whilf ;*V he. waff, off* ` .V .* * '* ' r - it >- v.'.'H i".'.i-1/. CEAZK2AH . .. f 33KEHXSR:/"Eld you hear ' * .. that. Dr. . Adams? . N't,. - 4 *;'--*^-* '*\ * ***" f **.*.. * * .1' think, one 'day .is not ao very good.' -V 'V v-''` ` ,, think- three day iff about right* I *' yard about placing work*. and he sale of work, they conic r./ v :1. * that.*-all. shipyard wor^-waff-hcaTT7 and. all ha wanted' to kna- * * * ----^ noiu. Tn other- wordQ- h wa aa.to turn-down all those who could not do everything, -- I women and men. .. ...............' ' ' v -* CHAXH21AST DHi'KjR: ' all? h' -'"*. * ' V' They had to he able "to do anything a .. - . DB. PRICH:. They had tn. ha.. a~hi a fin any work that was" required.-'.. : -.1 / dAIR&AN DRZKlSRi _ X do not think that is general.'. That prohahly differs'with.the locality. , . . . . * DH*` 7. J. Hilly, ` (Telta Shipbuilding Company, Hew Orleans, Louieiana) r ^e have that down at Hew Orleans. ' -- CEAIHIIbH DHZBXSH: Shall I take up Ho. 5, the matter of v' . . , ,* *,r >4 ' . ,v .* , employing women? ?e mentioned before that that really has' to-be suggested; the physical facilities that ere necessary \ will'have to "be suggested by the yardr or, rather, 'perhaps i ^-;..the'district rather than the yard, but it certainly trill -. * n* * ^ 'v*"** * * *** ^ -1 - .t* " - * *' ** * , * * * " * wary with.*'the'-district.. ;-Lo you, gentlemen' feel we ought to ' ' formulate, some p<jlicy with regard to item No*. 5? T. >*, '.'"l.w * \^ . *' * * * . ..* * '* ` .* i I ~ r;:-'' gy thought 'was* that' the employment of women in-the ship-- "~ ' /* r*.. . * . j * and we do not know quite 'going yet*'.1 2lwe know iar there are' going to' ber' a good/nary, of t5o^ ~ TThnf the 'percentage win be in'the next ...'** _* f-i-.rrv* ? .* '*^ *,,.** .. .* cin. noirtis-- 'err year- is:, unpredictable*. Should we make that * .. ... .i'.i--:*.. pore definiteT'-.-.Uhat is. the- feeling?- T'"- r;"-"7 ' yiTZZf.TELm XcCCTz: X"think:.it'should be made aorw definite,.be-- cauno`i2. taking a general treatment rooa> you- hare to co-par'! .'ate.-the toilet- facilities,-you* hare- ta-have- separation,, and ' , -*. . . - *.*%' .* . -I . ; * , ' *I * *I usually-the..nurses. like..a separation- from- the-f enale natlents .... i . * . . i . - . . ***.*.* *. ,* . ** *.*.. *# * ,j : 'In other words, you have two female lavatories, and then the . , . - ; _ - i-, * ' t , .......'......... * *.. * * doctor and the staffj the male nurses, want separation from :.the sale patients, ' Supposing back on Section A, Page 1,'we "r". ' ' ' -.[ Increase those facilities to take care- of what has "been rug . gested nowj would that be satisfactory? Would everybody be ; In agreement with that? -- ** * ' . PR. REEK:. Doctor*. I would- like to suggest .what our - # *t ****' ! * .*' 0 ** . * ' experience has been, We have about 10 per cent,.of our pay- i - ' .roll in women*. I an sure.,it will- probably .so'.to 30 or 40 j [ 1-.--.'per cent if the war lasts .long enoughs. He have-.provided in ' our building, .'as, you remember* an extra. women1 a treatment | opace.-.. We have not. aa yet found it necessary. to use that, -'/except. where we do have a disrobing case* `or-a.'case brought %\ *V In-byr ambulance.... I think that is. entirely a local' problem.' k"**" CH- AIBiiA.-*S 7. DRU`Uk'ZRj~ '--Ho."w* about, t.h' e~col.ored, or whites'T -. X think' the apace should, be provided* * `'''I.-. > pa^'wTT.yt;*' T poud^cn^o-argae^that*- -If is l...^** vf' *.j Vt'l/'-faf,. lTo<ciWa)Tl, pT5-rroabbllerma naSs tto warhhne-ftch.haei"r- yvnonu have htor* 'hhfat'frf-eo .crteeppaSnTate--Space "''''-'"J'a.' ~.`rt'-'-V. j- *' 1\\ * .. * . . -r*.'. '.T.'-j/' for- colored-end whiten .in tho-. Southern, yardsr-there- whhL-be'. ,?M J , y *i ?* , , , t * * * '*,* V*", . ' , < . . . , .. 8' a first class mess. .Vw *> .-- ) -r 1G0! .I....- . BR* RISCZ: - Aa-'l -say, that is. a problem in-the South,- and they trill hare to-h-are-it--- .V-Cl ''.- . * *' , * . * ;* " * * * # HR* RELLXR: tfe.are setting up separate rooms for our people* ' *' y y-:- ': >.' .j . ' ' CHAIKlfeH. DRIRXER: la'there any special f eeling^orPSHe part or this group on the Teeding situation in the yards? | Personally, I thlni itis'a mess in roost or the places re hare seen it.* X thinh the reeding In 'the yards is by and *` ** * . ^. - *V large rery-badly, handled, almost without exception* *- '- `j ! - * DR*. CROFT: X would llhe .to get some ideas on that* They hare no reeding facilities' now in our yard, at all* They are /Just in town*'and there`were a lot of little'places' mushroomed P ' V. -V ; '" V'C??-'*v; ` * 1 * - 't " ud around nearthere* V.'v*-3.' '* * . y. .* -V{-- * *' ' " " v CRAIR3iff DRXSXSRr" Qaich' and dirties and-diners* . _ . DR*-' CRGTTr ;; Quich'and 'dirties; The' city board of healtir . * *' ^ * * ';* *1 ,\X *. z'/.,' **" \*\ ' *. v *. ., has been .right*'down sy* itech* : X'hare* done ay-beat to "try to get them, to'put soaefplace'in the plant, Originally^ in thei plans they had itr bnt-X don't, sees to get to-first base* Cimg^'Bai3SSRr/:,vX hnro=. not- go-f ir^t_l : : v ! . baner-and X harcr- dnna-^a' good.'deal cf holXarihg oa thin*. X do-. . not. thinh.' tre- can-get--to- hone plate?-unlaos. this group does- * ^ # ** . /' V- %*c* % :f.rf.w * **-v * ; ^ i* * ' * .* * * *' , ' scuathihg about- it* ; Xn.'yotn'do' s onething perhaps re can- get :-.r * ' vv-U .O--' .' nepouhoro*.".. H'harei Gpent. nctfh .of uy prufesoionah Ufa' and '* ' -i'** " * - *. *'-' ' % ' hare- dons a lot. 'of eounuXting.uoriu is- thn laat..nrtai or- ' . ` '` ft^tna-fcirnrf' itt' thcr rraritiae Tarda ^ tic '.and the Navy does not compare at. all with. shat you find la a! . _ | nodcm manufacturing establishment or a modem mining com- ! mnnity* It 'la hot anything like it. Tfhether the yards want /* - *?, * - * * . ^ . 4-. * * *. .; . * to"gb_, into feeding or not, I don't know, hut what they are doing now ^is certainly not very 'good* !' ' ;/. . CEQF7:talked it_ ever. with_ Ur. page, who is the ."'.r __ . ...treasurer a? the St*-John1 s Shipbuilding, and'for years has" '. ,been connected with large corporations, "and some coal cos- panies in Pennsylvania, and he seemed to think it would be Va .very; difficult problem to get someone who was capable of ' .`doing.. it;and. doing .it - right. ; , he said there were very few concerns :;> *'; vi\; ^caa^tekeemy. of; jour gentlemen'to'establishments wa^-assa run- i^-ning../tucnty-four..houra where the employees get anywhere from *' ... :*-l.. 21.1 .* . * g* . t 5 . ** . . * C. . . . ' ** . ** . Tilth, so idea of doing any feeding. ', /' US. RIZ2ZZ: As'far aswe are'concerned, we'put up cafe *'*** '" * 7 ,!*' , _. * , terias "and found them inadequate to feed twenty thousand nen in''V half an hour." It was purely from a personnel standooint'. t V >, f'Tou 'can'say. that'you cannot see that there is "any difference ' between feeding'a steel plant and a shipyard. I say there is! "ri '"i :--"T-;""7 " ~ j ;a'great deal of difference" partly~be'cause. there is a war-on.[- We are unable to get personnel* ' ' ; : ' CH-AIHHjJf DRIUSSR: ' That has a lot to do with it. /'.'v; 2H* EIZSS: Secondly, we found, there was too much abuse \* ^- *> '** r*'*.'mr~*!.***"' *w*'**7' ^** y* *. *. * ., 5* ' * ' * '* **,!. ? > - * * * . * * of the cafeterias.'"- In other words; 'our leaderaec, superir- ' tendentsj" foreman and everybody else brooked off at 11:30, in: ^ reorder .to get into' our facilities at 12:00, and we* just could -`%A .; - :.S . `.'not handle twelve:thousand or."any 'small portion of them-in l^theJeff;ort-to.\try to';tahe;'-carevof .part, or; them,, and we- slap] 44* . .. : :. ... ,, -105 " ** ' ' ` ' ,. . ( 'd'V. - ...CHAIHZ1A5 BRISKER: -TTe can throw a-Tory good bluff and -: . V ' .. A ' gat'away with it; that-in, IT we hare a quick and dirty/ or ` '***.' ' *' ` ' *'diner, yon can Just gat away with a lot of by being ; highhanded, if It in insanitary, and get the local health people in* Vs hare' newer found any/trouble with that* Do yon gcntleaen wish to take any position about the reeding * situation? -It la a large one; it Is an awfully big one; and | IT tre start It now we better hare a pretty good idea where ii i V 8is leading.> '* . .. vr ;/-.V. *# **** * * *-*. * * *' * //..I hare had sereral shipyard, ` . \ . *. - ' . . , . *. execaxtiyes say to ae that . they, would either run a shipyard or a cafeteria, but they . .would `.be dagned if they would run both. A .` `'I * \- HH*.`0rCOilHiLL:. X hare newer heard any cocplaint fron our :.V . . ........ . * . j^--. people'about the way we feecL our non- .to -run in a whole ' . ' ' [-/fleet cf cafeteria- trucks with hot.* coup,.- coffee, and things i I * -V;' * ;>* **" . .!*'-* . *. ; *1 . ; ef that. acri.,-. They* gat in. the yards- just, ten alnutes.. before i ; the-whlntle blows^ Everyone' seens to be quite satisfied. ' v<* * * |7I Itare aarer heard any' complaints. 'j * *% ** *. A >J ^ . X. hare aoe.rt it done in sene yard U -. "-t- ------ c..-v. r .-. . - : r. * r'-.' you- hsm gacbr trouble- in Jusning the ' ! * * * . * t *. * . * V *. , kw . .. * *. * *. , ... * * . *.^1!' *.. # , .#<***.; * /7* ** ''* * .- -*I,*** .* . t.*"*.t%. : ^r **.*.* > '< . * *'* - . ...* .. |j 4 si. rhi3tle to get there? - 7-- - HE* O'CC^UZLL: The management lias Issued an order tha' c. J|. the leadermen. is responsible Tor their men. getting on the J< I...`-'.XT.they don't, the leaderman is fired. . 1' , 7 - \.. RSIH: Down at DDe elta we hare two large cafeterias ./ ' y- n---' ' jl'-;." and two so-rcalled .mess halls* .That is,,..food is.-transferred ^" * p; .* :.r . .'''-froa .the cafeteria'to the mess halls. We don't have any _'r. V-;. .'..trouble at all* ` "J' .. . \ ' /l- ' ' . .. . ,r . ; V *r?v' DBIH2ZR:- Eow about this matter of salt tablet: `.. ly...|.. * ** . **_.. t *jiS. .. 7- DR. RIES3;. The only, trouble with the salt tablets is i.*** 4 %* w * t -v** .* ;* * . ~ ` ` *. * * 4' - * ' . j- ? they ..take.then, straight .and then they throw them up and then -v: . ` "* _. \ .** . : - tr. c<t21 .to us*'! ' - . . v . *!'*.*.*- ; l* * -* w "'***',. % f * ' *. m ' . .' ; : v' S?EUCERi^I notlce in this* sectioa -Tco'u say, * shall .*.***. * *--*,. IT \. T, v* * . *.* ..*. \m **>. % . w .^. . , . ... * . . * * . *. * . . . ^ ^ ^ -.HbTr-*1wti*. establishing^mininna stand-' "" 1 ` a--.', arda for- Sanitation? Sane of theism TiTPTvfcs haairref. aajwa-ffunlil-yr i'tnru-.' them unless_you 7-" '< "V -'| * icer certainly trill ^ S' 105: I ' Ue have taken longer to go through, this than we In T tended, and X an afraid-it will, sake us a little short In | the subsequent program, but our. three officers here all hare l 'v ^ j 'il. sonething to tell of iaoortance, and we' will let then go . ! ji * ,*'** V, ' i .ahead* '..Hxv-Kelson-wlH speak--first* ,, ' # : . .. UEL '' ' s'... 5ZLS0H, (Srxaign, U*S+H+&., Boston, Hasaa--' .' v.', . . .! 5 ;'v .- . ; . ''' i .chnsetta): '' Since our tine. Is very, short and we crust hurry i ` ' ' ' - : along, we will merely skin through the subsequent sections : a of this manual, and In case any questions come up regarding ' . . . ' * ,i 9 (. * . > '* _ ;! our ninlmuta. standards concerning dust and fumes, and.sxs-forth, i 5 we would like to answer them here and now, or hare your .views . . \ .on. th^s"'and~your reactions^to the suggestions we have made, h jj m'- *ii *':.r'w.`*^--'4';r j ' | ` fhln.iig--m.wa3yi;,for^ythesreeg.ety engineers, but we think, that ' j . 3 4 \*;*.,/A* ;'** v" ;* ** V* ' . * ** * *v .I . ,i toar should, hare.'an., idea'of what the problems' are "in the S. yard.and how .to control them. . ;*-;*\ v ; *. g * , 1 * * * ^ ;i , ^'**"**t** * * i,.*./* ft **,*'. , * * j . . I*. As' far an ^dust-in.^shipyards. Is "concerned, it is not a .; S J > * -A* ' * '-`J'n* , .* "* _ . *y\\r* . * v * * .; " 1 . `. * * . * '* **.v *................. J. * * I .j j[ ;' common, problem!. `Botst. shipyards- do not do any sandblasting, ; i$ : ' ." " , - *,**'' . , .* r--/.>- * \1 . .' . i*.. . . .* ,* Ii - ' ft..'. II f^J CiUi? I A" *?.' ** :ci ouc re.~iiih:-. silica dust, cf course, 'the re--- - crult" (XT'erasure after a,Icngatiag^lif eflicosis X need --hot .go'' into details of-.thatu;.... gcurdoctors ..hnotr I.. aa_,not.& - - Lead 'dust. frcru.paiatclued in. the paint ehou nay result jj.' ' . . .. .. . * . . U ~ in lead_ polairing because:: ofy.iraiatlcrr~a,f` the-Lssd*.' | 7 ... Asbestos:._Xn aahy yards, asbestos pipe coverings. are*'' used* They are shaped and'formed .at the shipyard, usuall' y' I - : v. ; by a_ cub-7contractor, * and. cutting, pounding and' sewing of the ` ' jjasbestos cloth and insulating naterial is done-* Hor,' where . j C'"1 v -.f:'.- v:;*.;>*' -^-.*7-.' .. ' - . :**- flf*.,' *****&" engV1'*in1 Je"eyrs! and ** ;p.?h*.ry*As**vincrpi*a****n s- .-"'X }a*_.a`.a.w. i ng^w^hjat~i.a.7-:**ia,th.*gf . . -. *:.Xv.b&--:> --V 7- r7%- 5 ' , .a jj ' po surerjjT5f * -- -- * - . . **- 10T g>gjrtrgT-.B.rT.Ioggble% .ll. ait. 'for lea- d fuse- s: MF* os you/.> p* ro-- he=:in=^i^e22=ut' one ar.d one-half - . "l "v- - . ' " .j . - '< yf^eadLpsrypTdrt.er.oetrerJ'of -air, -'In -otCr tests 'rhich V } *70 ran re .had as. anch aa thirty tinea the naniuuu' allowable -: Y.*-.-. i--all-:.. . . ' ' . '/ Unit of, lead, created-In- th* ^taaarih ere `&ie baT^seidlns^cn-'- '; i painted- -surfaces* 'jcr th,ar-* hatotroubiti: Sharg~j A* future^* V cannot' sa7, but. `St^ns^sunethirg to.ratcli out fcr ! *.*** ** .* , *I ... in relders* .\ .. . . *' : \J\T V-.'- .Zinc orida poisoning or the sine ahvng mar cans ed . 8 *' .% .. . . ' .**- * - '**. rI . -* . "*" : . j\- v- . . ` v I i-_f=nasfc TpgT.dig.-g- on. galrar.lt ed surfaces^-- e+?--cns^sct ornr. e14 iregl^ . .- r; h ;.'* .*" ' : -T ' ' * ` .*>4'V j '/the^-Leaf of* the arc- ftfffipst.Toiatnthsrkirrc- . !.. I " burns., really, and_prarggWg r.h uhen irbai ed Y .'" :? * . ..' - j I . > in``??5fficieni. ouantii^rgsgia^tJ-il'igL^'?- e.w;-w,r. After it.//.-; --i; - * ; \ .. araosura Seray go hone i .f -- . * \ v~** * !- * * \m- 4..rfr . .* - *._. a 1 . . ..`r : .* . . `'It is g~tewporarT^t^aggshaLuerer*. .'After a night of discos ,. :* *, ,** -`^**'*f. **. ,V*/*- /* ** 1.*:!** , ; * *,v t' *.. '* , * ` * ^ *j,-** x k ' . v " *. : ' fort,, therfnes^szernihg- he is probably ahljisstna gnotg. rorh,. ' * j "'??* ' - . v. ''-* `"-s.' - 1 7 '1 ;-.-'and eo^lgtrt tlaar-is- not, a Xargs itea,-:rit-rdago^-hggerer, po- !. .* v'V- 4 ^Vn ' 10S; % F!!LJs*x*~^rr=ix?~ pjgphlwta.. giving in-detail -tile technique of" doing! :K' v-. ''*: *. **-* -- _ i basophilic aggregation-testa,- As-you knew. r^ j specific test- -In.->tksr wordsit Trill not Indicate lead . ' - - ,. _ poisoning alone* A.-basophilVni:;-.cona.t la also obtained in i *** ,"* * .* * * . *. * *" > * 1 * . * . 'V* ,* . -other: disorders such as diabetes;-"ggdsgtbers* X have-these bulletins; IT you would like to cooa'up and get one after 7* * - ' - ' * ; j- `-.the 'aeetlng, you are welcone to; then* ` '. .. .; Where any-large ncaber of .workers crust be checked for * - *..** *- .'* . _ - . . 5 r **. ` * *" "'*"** '*.** ** " *'* ' . ' * * 'xaighb raention- a word about, labboratory facilities* '* ' . ' '' '.`7"'^ *. "V .""V" . .. .\ .. *^wrjr..n.i V11 f iI ri i i i w<=-* **** > rr imf iro': : ! !1 a-bad actor-- In-many-cases-.we hare--round sprayers operating . .... v \ . .. . without-the proper* protection, and in most, cas-es their help-- - r.\: '' . era `hare not-Vany-. protection at all. / A usair, would- h e standing beside a painter, ss&Z. the-painter would be wearins a reepir- \ -'ator, and the helper not'any,-.and .breathing in this fine nist r of'red lead paint in.'great Yolune. How, obviously it is ' ' dangerous. "The absorption of lead through inhalation is * t *` ' . *. .. ' ~; *j * * * . v_ " *1 *'sueif core rapid than that hj tnjectlcn^ and seen lead poison-* **.**.. v ***! f *'*. - * .-ins danger is intensifled. '* * V * ` '. * ;. . . - . . X`'would liie to.-"call' your attention to fiberglas on * , " **' " **> ' ** * '*,* * ; '* *.*** ' *. * * * * ' Page S-C*` There'hare been uany ala apprehensions' about '' ! 1; *+\ 'ivJi--'V '' :\i * 1 * ** , \ J *. * 1 . V ; , * * *. , * j ^fiberglasand the main one- ban"been'the danger of breathing! -/'particles' of fibergins, which is'used in .insulation in ships. . As; far. as' has been daterained,'-there are. no* ill effects fren.! .irthnl ation/particlea, of. flberglsg./' ;Aa"you hnow',. It is a silicate,/' not. a.'sillcn,'.*not' free" silica. at".all;/ therefore, 'I "lr. .:*jcjCyVvj~ W-v.; r--:* r-.;.-. .; } ^:_Cbrbon_TotrnchIaridcr^:when.Tinhaled,'-, aa yore, hro-erp. fcnT'anyf. ~ ....#/./.. . .s : . '. r*- *r* ^ ' . Ye have tehen longer to go through this than we in 105 tended, and I an afraid it will nahe us a little short la the subsequent progran, but our- three officers here all hare ' sonething to tell of Importance, and we will let then go * ' ahead. Mr.' ITelsoa will spealc first. . ` : .(-isign, if. 1,7.> '-ostonMassa-I -1'. chusetts): Since our tine is very short and we must hurr .`alo'ng,'we will nerely shin through the subsequent sections - . ` of this annual', and'in case any questions coae up regarding cur nirdaun standards concerning dust and fuues, and other * * * '. occupational disease factors, we would lihe to answer'then here ` . ' and now,, or-have ycur-views on then and 70ur reactions to the ' ` . ' '. . ' . . ' suggestions we have nade. This part of the is intended * for use cy. safety engineers, but we thinh that you, too, ' : should have an .idea of what the urcbleas are in the yard . * and how to control then. '" ' *; v- '. (Manual is followed point by point.) ' ' Is far att dust in shipyards' is concerned, it is not a . widespread proolen. Most shipyards do not do any sandblasting, ' sene do,', where they do have iti we have seen it dene very badly, tfe have seen sandblasting out in the open, sandblasting in a roon with no provisions nade far dust'control , sand-- ' . blasting without the proper protective ecuipnsnt for the operator; ; . uo- heed. faulty respirators. The protective devices listed in the- nanual. are reccmended tc control the danger cf silicosis.. ^7. /// / 106 .. Lead dust frca paizt aired iz the paizt shop zz7~resait 0' -ia_LeasL-P.QisQr.i~g doe to lohalatina of Teat* pirr.er.t !*-y sizing operations. . '_ . Asbestoss la zaz7 yards, asbestos pipe coverings are used.' They are shaped azd forzed at the shipyard, usually by a sub-coztractor, azd cutting, pounding azd sewing of the * . asbestos cloth azd insulating zaterial is.done. 2Tcv, where there is azy extensive cutting, there is a dust hazard _if the substazde contains asbestos'. All insulating zaterials do aot ccztaiz asbestos. Here again we poizt to the reguiati: recudr safety engineers' azd' physicians to hzow the con- *\ ' ' stituszts of zaterials azd czezicals used iz the yard. She- next itez is zetalffuzes azd szcis uroducedby welding operatiozs oz zed lead painted surfaces. Share is a definite hazard of lead' poisoning created iz such cue rations. We hare seez it.being doze iz shipyards very cftez. The heat of the arc cz steel which has beez uaizted with red lead paint volatilizes lead iz the forz of az czide a zahes a fuze which, when. inhaled.,' is 'deuosited iz the lungs of the welder azd absorbed. If' the exposure is repeated daily or at irecuszt - intervals, the chances are the welder.will ccztract ' chronic lead poisoning-- ' . ' '<*& have zade sens tests proving that the errs sure t 0 1 'i !i le ad free we. lding lead-painted s teel is above the *saxinun -ftllowable-1 ini t-for-l-ead-^uns-.--As- linit is ohetand one-half nilligrans of lead per" ten cubic * neters of.air. In our tests.we found as such as thirty tines the rjt1 -run allowable linit of lead present in the atnosphers surrounding the welder. Whether or not there nay he widespread trouble in the future fron this'practice, we cannot say, hut lead poisoning anong welders is sonething to watch out for. _ Zinc oxide poisoning or zinc chills is a ccrron disorder associated with welding of galvanized steel. The heat of the electric arc bums away the* sine coating, producing a dense white dune of zinc cride. When the funs is inhaled in sufficien quantity,- it causes netal dune fever. After exposure to a heavy concentration of cine oride funes, a welder nay go hone and after a few hours begin to have alternate chills sad- fever, .--s illness is real but tenporary. After a night of disccn- fcrU, he^ is probably able to go-to vcrlc the next coming. . " "/ . ** lost tine.itherefore, is not a large iten. However, the dis- . order does-accasicnally cause--lest tins- of a day or two, and the lowered efficiency of the- vorher, due to his washed out feeling, is senething to contend "ith. Ai so, the effects on the- nan1 s norale are- vsry bad indeed- S CZL* -- p2 `~-v++* *0 -* ^*-** S.. Dept, of labor, Washington, D. D. ' <d r. 103 Che 'eons tract ton. of Liberty ships does'not involve ' . such galvanized welding. Only in piping is galvanised natal used. Therefore, those yards.concerned only with . . * --Li-'oerty-shipsznsy-notr-f tnd-ggt^r-yggg"?e-re r" to 'ae f '5'jrir / * probles. It is a problea, however, in ITavy contract yards where destroyers and other TTavy vessels are built. ITavy specifications denand galvanized steel' as a preventive .. seasure against corrosion. _ . * _ *- Solvent vapors in a shipyard are encountered in connection with painting operations. The various solvents in paints include petroleua spirits, turpentine, toluene, naphtha, and others. ' ' * "* * ** . ' In cenenting and paint cleaning there are certain prspa: V' ' . , '* ' . ations containing toxic solvents. In nost cases the safety engineers are unaware that the- solvent is tonic. Carton tetrachloride and benzene are frequent offenders in that respect.- ' '_ The acid gases and casts aresfcund in pichling, cleaning and ddgreasing operations. They are not conncn in shipyards, hut they rust be considered where they are present. ' . Alkali xists can be considered in a class with the acid gases and cists. : _ . ` * Asphyxiasiug atnospharss need no explanation: oxygen lacir and carhcn ncncxide", generated by revet pots, are nost inuortant. . ' ' * '' ' lev, ~ have-here in connection with lead nci seninc rg-p . 109 pamphlets giring in detail* the tichnique of doing the . sinple.basophilie aggregation tests. JLs you -now, the test is not* for lead poisoning. Aihigh basophilic court is also obtained in other disorders such as diabetes. I hare these ~'~ bulletins; if you would like to get one after the neeting, you'" are welicore to -then. . ' ' ' ` Where dry large uuncer of workers rust be checked for * , lead poisoning, this nethod of eraninatica is probably the * nost feasible. Where the counts are suspiciously high, a diagnosis of lead poisoning nay be confimed by a urine or blood analysis. '. ' I right nentioa a word about laboratory facilities. ' 'Naturally, laboratory facilities will not be arailable to each c z you your locality. At least, you night hare difficulty in. getting then. And the techniques used in doing lead analyses * * * * * . right not be used by the operators of the laboratorySo ' * % ** * we propose to set up laboratories to- be operated under the Maritiaa Connission to which ycu hay send sanples directly and hare the analysis reported back to you. Shanrns, ns: Section- C takes up these occupational diseases acre in detail and is a repetition, of those I hare already nenticnsd. Severer*, 1 would like to snuhasice uarticularly the danger of lead, poisoning present in spray painting with red lead.. no _ In too many yards we hare found sprayers operating without'the proper protection, aad ia alaost every case their helpers have not been protected fcos ==e inhalation .V . - ' --o*--ther-lcad nistsv -"Tie-absorption of lead- through inhalation is ouch acre rapid than that- taken ia by ingestion, and the ; danger of poisoning is .intensified. .. ,, I woid like. to call your attention to fiberglas cn page 3-C. . There have 'oeea aaay aisapprehensioas aoout fiberglas, and the rain one has been the possible danger . of breathing particles of Tibergias when applying it to ships as insulating naterial. Is far as has been detemiaed, . 'there -are ac ill effects frcn inhalation of particles of ffeberglas. Is you nay know, it is a silicate, cot a free silica at alii therefore,., it cannot cause silicosis in any way. The particles of fiberglas are irritating to the skin, however. That is", they work their way into the skin nay produce a nild dsmatiais. in imunity, or toughness, is usually acquired after a while, and. that tolerance rust be considered in treating nen who ccnplain about their skin condition frcn woridrg with fiberglas. ' ' . .. The canent nsed in.fiberglas installation is very often one containing carbon tetrachloride, another source of danga* tfhen inhaled for any length of.tine or in any auureciabie m amount carbSn *tetrachloride causes serious livdr danas re. and * ., fktal-paiscnlngtcases have been reported. ' JLsbistasis, which I hare already ceatiosed, oa pare h-C, "Is~a'disease which will act appear-,-perhaps .--until- a year ur-- nore of exposure to asbestos dust", but the danger is present in soae yards and should be recognised. It is similar ia its effects to silicosis, causing shortness of breath and a tight .* i' . ' * feeling around the chest of the victim. ' " I think that is all Ineed to nentioa. I want to remind you again of the basophilic aggregation tesfe booklets which we have here for you. I will now turn the ueeting over_ to Dr. Drinker. ' .. . CZUZyjLTT DZHiZZZ.: In.order to show you what we want to ' do,, we nay have to double up a little bdf with the safety en gineers and postpone our demonstration so they can .see it at the. same time. `' Ve"would like to hear seme discussion on these items TV _ * _ __ *t 6 * S C just took up, on veiling. especially. ' Dr. Drinker, I came back with great anticipa- tier, because.of a discussion wa have had in the last few days im cur shipyards with the electricians partly in relation to * ' *" a welding machine and partly in relation tc welding fumes. ' rr'e are very sensitive at cut welding femes in cur pla.ee right near, and have been, for nary renths, but particularly because of cer-- ' . . . ' li i ' -113 . . . X raised as & question, -one,, the probability of tracheo^* 'bronchitis from welding; is due to welding fuses? Second- . . ( * . * * * * *. '* * ' f ' ' ,* ^ ' t' * * *, | ly, ifl It possible and has it happened In other shipyards orer * . ** * ' '**" ^ ** -* * . y r. - ' ** * ** ** J # the country that definite statements hare been made that \ J. ' "j;^^Te<>trocution--can-occur rrom-w eld-lag machines? . : r~" 5. , ' . . I /could point out that we hare aereral thousand welders, il ... **..* -***; - * ` *; * * ij' They hare welded for sixteen souths through rain and shine, | ... . j wet and dry. So far, this is the first death, to B7 hnowl- : .5 -* ' r . d. ; t edge, that we can'ascribe to" electrocution from a" welding j * ** ^ #> * , ^ ; sachine; It was an alternating current nachine with 300 . j * . \ ' amperes, and the contaot.voltage of 80 wolts, I ash that j ' Tery definitely, is it. possible, is Improbable, and has'" it ' happened in other shipyard3T" .V r .* " *' *v\ , | X disputed 'with'the' autopsy'surgeon the' cause- of death, If !J. ; . _ .-J;. *T* ......... . ^-V and also his assumption that 'the' tracheobronchitis waff due to! vj[the inhalation, of. fumes. His statement was simply that there- r- must be something in the ordinary fumes Trcn welding cn steel! ' which-was causing that in our worhneiu , X hare some ether. ' : theories' on it, but"X would"rather, listen to- your discussion of ..those- ucintn- fi' 5 Ov'T-.-V-V- V:---ly-f-'*;2''-/: Space Without Tcntiiatinu^"trouble: in extremely lihely*-.. Gal-! '**' i-iHiii. * * *-, 4 . * * * - .'.*** .* ' #. .Tcrlr^d Ircm 1c lively* *tc- .**uIit *f'.. ,* .. * - -, #. ,, 'if * ^^ * , . ., --. ' .' I m , rouble- ary^b^rsr. *urLcaafc th . .1! \ .i.yr;. j . ,f * ` *. . .. . 5 * "*. * ^ 1*^ ]" . * . * "* ,*.* * j , *y* -i \ '- , a .,, ** ,*-. .**.*,,* v .* * * * . ***** * * 114: 53 ' . * .....'-. inhaling orf fuses -is preveenntteedd..-----' The oonnlyly- cure thhaait we can . . ' * .* - suggest,- or the heat one? la ventilation with local exhausts R . .. - .. .* .1 * * sum lied hear to the Jw ob#. . '- *. J Asto whether yo.u_ars-getting away .with-it-or-nety--whether m . 4 ' * *# ' ' * ' . * ' f* .* 1 * * ........ * '* you are having enough ventilation, it Is extreuely hard to state without some air sasples,' and we would like at this* " - - point, to show you the desonstratloa that we have arranged here If. . now,. 'and we trill let Hr* Tge describe hotr it can be aasoledjI: a'*****'. * .'. * . 1^- ***.' *.*** * * . _ - ' -. * *- ' * - . * i j-'-*;.:A?ter tre have given - that-demonstration, then the discussion *' * say continue* '*': 'z; - \.V **-1 ':'i welder that-'the Earitlse. Consiseion has' loaned us r j | i**. a*. AUQ ULBJiBdwUUb C w } * W i *. * - *v 4`^- ,.*ts** * \,T- ^ V .* 4 .V' /*" ,`v #-.* , ? ly * . . .' ( J j'yV'v,: |^-'";-'_u_ aill.le^a. v*_e_ - I* at' xtc.. y. o_ . u* ___r' J.u. d*g_ sena.t;_w*he*tiher w' e ihave tiak en proper : ence* Te , . ! . are . assur. .ed. by the . . . : - ' - .. haa* beexc- .kind enough. to supply : -`C \T' would, nnt be & ocuX. iSLtha--- . * *' -I-.-.*>* - . . --* *. *- *. r * i:i .#-- . " ' r*.rsot,. 71'- .v. V ' *-*.*..- I -......*" ' *t`'' ` r * J' tk - 56* ` '(Ss -dt,__liiirti aUiu-- --!--i^eiu-isg. ) .../, To prerace our demonstration, let me a ay Just a word or , * - .*:* j* ir * ^ . . . * , . - . - i:I .two .about the ventilation program which Is covered in some j ;0;v.:'V JV -Ho. , .* .. .."detail. in"t|Ss minimum standards which jou now have. Cur >f . * "; " ' * ' ' " ' '' . Interest in ventilation, of course, Is considerable, Just as ir--' \ , . ' yours is,"since most `of the^hanards we have been discussing .* . v. . I can be controlled by ventilation. i .. . i How,, our prime . concern, 5s:tis53k, with ventilation, ! i .v. is the elimination of welding fumes r and that is what we are 5 -.r-: **..;* gains to show you. here today vr !.*T~ * 'vi ihfas5e w^^4g-e=e=t==up *r ^''/A.^Ado .no-t thtn1g ia view of; our. combined audience 1 that we.should'go through our..section on ventilation stand ? -A".-A . . ~ `'.v " . He rgUl -have an opportunity to tahe. * iv.'*'*- -r* 'r-^ r"V V '.""T""-' "j-- . ` ' ' ." .. that-: up _ s eparately;w^th'the safety-engineers who are.nore _ _ I'^.C ~ y<~*!* ^ ." * }' r prt~^r.tly 1 orgaf;>&=Shlt.'.sight, paint- out 'in our .ventils .ration.'standards,' the-' second."paragra '.bility"of the-safety*, department'*- whose staff shall worh in .-A ' v * . V"` V'S:, *> * * . V~ * >S*. JftT. 2TA5?V J -*7r.\ *.; ! * ...r .tt.Th*s**fi.t'*'** ~ **.v '` r - *7" *. *>*\ - .-*7*.. S'i * ~ v .. v;-;,v* V ^ './ *jk . >>.*., V. ^***'***..>! . * - -* * . , . 57* y ' *3. . - - 3. ^ , ; l which JOU this* ifl = * It _ A -. v` . , ' .. "'intention whatsoever or upsetting the applecart. 1V-'ar yards which have cone to opr. attention, and undoubtedly ! *. 9W- tJ-a -U. II n y^G. * :.V*. v- ** . ' pose' these ventilation,standardst,. --5-r: i'-tI--~=-.. _ * r ' * *' ; n <*7 - y - ' ' / mr Xenthfa^ioiTVcn er^zit end- j - reilava whoxWilh. have* to .o-tand' tae garr, 1 an arrj . ' - . -'-j S- z ' "**-* v -.v.-'-v ' . .. . .. " what we propose to'*do here Is for our v< .* '' -* * ' o. . s'trlhe an ,a< rc ',andw sh/ ow' you, , exa ct,ly, how th* efune t which is , j` . : ^ T--:- ;*# ` '>,,>.*/y.'.-s. ;v.> *j ' J'\./enei^ted'froa'that'*arc caa.be drawn away iron the Vicinity \ S ~'* ,i' - ***** /..*** -*..%\ "k- T`i ** s /*.. ** ; . . *- * sm+ wlm crH^ ' - ' -; Siey1. have1 else prcridedr'utf with la 'length'of .flexible n ined. fabric-: e " -t--* ' y.''which in ` on- the- fernhhar end of our | : -.1 "'i;- 2hp.harr<h'crr:the--'intaharlerax" gf^thin-faie ih-a-V=eo '*-11 OJC !j : j__How,-~there~is' aao.th.er trick -rh.ich.-wo- sax for the first 3 " Ai v s'* - . V;tlue on our recent. Inspection.-of some- of the yards on the .West Coast.- `Let ns 'take a loot at this. It is sisply a " n\ _ ' -- - .8 Ir re vacuum .cleaner which-has ` the metal hose attached to `i " it on the Ie?55Ezr3. side, and it demonstrates very clearly ._ * * * * * ' that a vacuum cleaner has will pick up welding fnnes and ; . . = >;v-: V:-. y. hold them-. 'This does not require any exhaust to take jzst :\<u -r WW .n .fuses 'tAt the outside,. 1st the fumes are drawn into the vacuu *_. -r 3". ; cleaner cscd are trapped in. the hag and they-stay there. Let _ ' ' '*3 * . . , . - . , -- **. . *.*.. * : ' V. ^ #* -.V V.'- ..*-** " ; .. : 7 ' " 1V->us- take a look at this' and'see how that works*. ..................... ' ( V-` fWe wanted to. show you.' ' jsl you. have any questions , 't r vy Jjor 5" J P 12O -r - ,( f -> littlo sore difficult, to handle tube ouch as we Lave her ' vJLLL ` f^' because It gsagd not stay where It ps& -Tt-bas--t&-bo ha *i 4+ Ar----laUa-BTAncr^.Vn <f>nV-. igjt the Uetal hoSC, BUCh as xre hare In this vacuus cleaner. Is better In that respect, do rnt, n4vn"`>" 11 v : wnt.<ftp - * i - peT&g-^b-l^ ui' Lli&-"WTrldgr--te-prop-t-hrj tht- * -Ll rrrr.! '.'IT'7*"LIf " QUESTION: But he could not hold it six Inches fros hi arc. It . would* be ino* ossible* * '* HR* ROSS:. It depends, of course,- on trhere he is weld ing*; j . * .* . . *. 0*, -* >*--' * * * -. ' ^` "' ' ( \] QUE3TIQ3: Suppose he has. to]do aoue. other welding, s< 1 \oide plate welding, he would hare to rig up a little gadgc .H to hang it there* He sight dp that, . ^ . .... , . HR*'ROSS: lea, he night do that* He must use his ir ***."' v , . * * ^ . * * * * . . - genuity and see if he cannot'hold it close to his arc* I: . * ,, * * J ' *.* . ` . * / ' * ' % . . * ho cannot use' the local exhaust, why* of course,.he will : ... .* -t.-.'1 * , -I sor.t- to . ventilation .. by, diluti.*o..n*** ' . ' _ ; . *. . '; QSSSTICU: That is what we do, or we try to do it* y;~- 5UHSTIC1: Eon close can you got that hose to the az baforu it b.ng any effect on. the welding process? **:::V?' ? ' - ' -> HR*- RC32: The hose oherald be within.-a lx or eight i *.w ****\. ` *'** , * ` . . *',V *.**'** .* * .'.^'*,**'** '* * . . ' * , *** * :;-;:.o..f:th..... ' o....r.e-*. . ';. v -r / j..-.'.V.......v..-............ . - QUESTION: T7hat is the-closest, you.aan get! ............ fra, ROSS:-I would- imagine-that--would be. determined largely by circumstances. It would not -Interfere a bit, ` If you. get It very oloae, eventually it would begin to pi ^V A; ," `i up the sparfcs, ' * ' i ai.t.p- f^> Sd ' ' I tioB-^ul, uu.j.'rjring !j jjl1 TZZQ " th'^tuirgi" & long as you are no exhausting in a spot that is dangerous, they will go out te-^ . "i fore they get very far, ^ ' . | .* . .i .QU22TI0H: Don't you thir.h it would be well to tell abc. : * *i i the efficiency of the type of bell horn, which increases the .* .. 'efficiency of the hc^se approximately - 80 per cent? J .-HSU .BOSS: I hare not aeon a figure as high as that. However,`the efficiency, is Increased substantially when a .boll south is put onto the end of.' this hose. In fact, al-' . - * * . _ .Boot any shape helps- a groat deal. Thii .efT* fu:'"^ bullintlon ^SSpns-ee,<SSa. flaring south or bell south, or as-foot-es^- Ihdsg, even a straight flange across the end -of - lhit, will ^ < TrtOU. . help to- extend none, of' influence over what it is wher; ;..thnr.piato %gada, It' aonotineg is difficult .to adopt that o , .V' r`X':*V * * ' local, exhaustsince the-bell nouth night then interfere - -'*****, V r *..'**.-' w'* r..v. *.*>. //* /w*^!. :..r \**.***"*** * 1 *1 * '* . with'carryi2Lg.it arouu-'and'getting into'tight places. QUESTICSr-". Hour about the four*-inch hosef ' v -'-HH*-; ROSS t.;.Tho`four-inch hoae in- a' natter of. choice, 123 course, a~litilo more--bulky,.-and. possibly-would not be so : . .` ' ' ' 1T* lit easy to get Into tight places, but t**nt In-n nr rv* pr^' uJr CtUjl^ Xyr^-u^ 'U) `fJLruj rJw^. TZgSCrsuj^tr liters1 is^'a^^oodr-rzea-jrto~b^~ssi&~f-or; C Jt^ hI ' *. ! --esc-hf13"*.......... ';.' ' ' 7~T^ * ` '. I __ * * * ~ i Q0SSTIOH: I wanted to ash a question. About four years .i ago' I was In Jacks*onville, Florida, in a drydoch, at Merrill.* * Stevens * We were repairing a ship down there, and they had . t five or sin welders in the bottoa of an inner bottom, and they * ` j . had & large 'induced draft fan* It was sitting right where the '* ' ` j welder was in the inner bottom without any general ventila^- ; . . *- ` | tien, end all he did'was .Just as fast as these -aim welders : . ./*_'. : . .. - * - . i*I , , T^ere welding,' it would bring those fumes right up through the ' - .' '.. . hole'like that* ' Would that be a go'od idea, to use- something': . .like that,* or in 'this better? *.''' ' ; . ' . ... .-.-.tT_.-iou *ROSS;* Of course,.'the fellows'who like this, or the! . : .<-* .-4 '' ' fellows who Hie. dilution'by general ventilation are pretty ` .' ,;/\xpj^ruZ*-<>~+ Lae^Li | evcnljiy;'divided* `X-thial: this-is cars efficient because you = ' *".5 .A i .-have to remove- a lot of air to clear out a compartment by. that . ;.nethfl^,^whei:ea5.-oiilj tw hundred c*f*n* will'do the same job r* ^ ft a 'Ai\ ^ *m *V4 ` i *. * /* * < -v.>yf * - .:*. ,. * i *; . . * . -*V. .'fV^OUSSTIOJ ;' -uV nearly had a very `unfortunate o itnot ion. (! ^ ~ -v-,t V.yrv..* >-. ''.. ' ' 1 ";with:rubber* hose in our* yard*" .We- just about*, omothered seven ; -. '* * . - \. . /,,> j * .men* ' bo. were Tory fortunate- in getting them out* So we '. ' j -",-.*.'-^v ' j n eraanally would not allow any "rubber* hoc o' inoide the ohiu at. all* ' ' HEU ROSS: That la & very Interesting observation. tfe ' . ' uaed this rubber hose simply because it happened to cone with our display equipment. -Te * 7-aotr-na csar that I J ! j I !' A _t : QUSSTIOH: . .After It'has been used'for a while, i will _ i . ' - becoae frayed and the canvas trill catch the sparks, and you *' * .* , . will have a fire as sure as the world. X know we had a lot 1 I ii I ` ' ` | of trouble with it, and we finally threw all the rubber hose: * . .* 1 . * ,: out, * . . . ' '.HR. ROSS-: That is very Interesting. . *' * . . ^l OETESTICK: Hr. Chairman, at Hsrine Shin we/ase flexible;' -v ; ; -j metal hose, -throe--inch, and we have a similar set-up, but it; I- '. is-' .very difficult to get'your hose within six inches whero ^ " h production welder might be welding In an inner bottom. If! ' v ' ' .. ` .* ! -. you have ever been down in an inner botton you will find the: three-inch flexible hose cannot bend bach on itself within |" j* r.4** ** * - v *- .* , . ' thirty inches from the floor, and so it la not absolutely practical from the viewpoint of a production weldor, where j yoti get-sis `oif-seven 'of- thca:.`In.ah inner botton tank, ^e r 'Xf - *v-:V ':* * \ 1 -.y' have .provided' a.Xongfivo-lnch/main duct off-which we take [- ' V ~ ' ' " / ' thn -.throe, inches. nnd we- figure, if we can gst-.it within a .y. \-y.'coupXo of;'feet in cn- lmar button^. when they are getting down cGLotJe^tOr-' the-deep tanka ,* we are- doing pretty welZL. Rut the' *!<#* .;***?/"***'* . : *-,.**. i . - * ** * . . ' '* Vv'"flenibic' pipe "has ` proved pretty successful with un for thatl * II 114 *J y IS. 1I0ES7ICZ RCSS (ENSIGN^ BOSTON, UASSAC3JSETIS): TTe rill leare it' to your ^udgenent Aether ire have taken proper precautions in this natter if welding. IT there is one tine 'proper safsty precautions should ... " ... be taken, this is it, because we hare a very discriminating audience. ' TTe are assured by-the Anerican Optical Conpany, which. has .been Sind ,, * ' . ' -- ^ enough to supply this little shield, that there .would not be a soul in the audience Tiho would have an, eye flash. If there are any such cases as a result of this dencnstration, please tell then and not us. 115 To preface our demonstration, let me say just a word or two about . ** ' ` the ventilation program which, is' covered in sone detail in the * . . . im standards which you now have. Our interest in ventilation is consider- . * .* ` able, just as yours is, since most of the health hazards we have been discussing today canrtr`"coni - Iow, our prime concern with ventilatioh is the elimination of welding ** * .* fumes, and that is what we are going to show you here today. * I do not think, in view of our combined audience, that T/e should go through our section oh ventilation standards.. 17e shall hare an opportunity .. * * ' * * to take that up Separately with the safety engineers who are more concerned with it. Ecwever, I night point out, in cur ventilation standards, the second paragraph which says, "The maintenance of proper worlmzg conditions shall be the responsibility of the safety department, whose staff shall work in^ciose cooperation with-the welding, paint, and electrical depart ments ` . . . ' . . . .. . '` fhat is putting it right up to you saf ety men. It is rather a labor . of ieve for you. Certainly there "will not be any reward other than that cf a cleaner working atmosphere. If you already have a ventilation wet up in your yard of which you are preud, and .. jea which you think is entirely adequate, we hare no intention what- so-aver of upsetting the apple cart. There are yards which hare coze ' * to our attention however/ end undoubtedly other? which have not, in .* *-- which the ventilation progrea lacks certain fundenentals to make it t* satisfactory, and that is the reason we propose these standards. Sow, what, we ..propose to do hero is to show the_cight_and the wrong . way to ventilate a welding operation. . _ '. ' Tfe have dorm here to r.y left a fan of approximately 2C0 c.f.: .. capacity a rubberised fabric duct which is on the discharge side_ of our fan. "This duct is described in our ri rbn standard .s as an accepted' re shod for discharging funes and also is a neans of ducirg air for general ventilation. Z * The hose on the intake end of this fan s a three inch diasseter . flexible rubberised hose used exclusively 'or local exhaust. 117 ` . Kerr, as you all knew .it is not enough for a local exhaust hose to * * be held in the sene cospartsent Tilth a welding operation. That sinply provides the elisu.nation of approximately 200 c.f.n. from that cosnariment , and does not even begin to take the welding fumes away. If,, on the . other hand, this hose is held in close--gro^-ty--ta---tha wwleH-j-.r ,apn vat-tow-- it will pick up almost'one hundred percent of the fuses. Suppose we start this welding operation. First of all, we will shew . you that if the hose is held close enough to the welding operation it /' . ' * will pick up the fuses* If the hose is not held close enough to the ^ welding operation, the fuses will be disseminated into the room. . . ' _ (Here followed a demonstration of welding) ' 12. BOSS:* Hew, with the help of a ^tube, which can very easily be sade from l/i" glass tubing fifteen or twenty inches long, you can find out whether the local exhaust hoses n your own yard, are exhausting enou,gh air. Jibcub two .diaseters from the end of this hose, we have drilled 118 a. hole approximately 3/l6ff is dianater and with the add of that hole- " ** . tto can establish what the static pressure is is that. hose. Two is'ches difference is water levels of the mascneter represents 200 c.f.a. < . . ..*%' ` . ** through tho __ three Irch hose* 1 * * . * . * w * .** * ' .. ` . * ^ . * * .*. . ' "This will not be true 'of a bo se*-of--another dianeter, but-by---a-sjn:pl6^ calculation we can translate the jnancxeier readings-into volun.es of air handled. Thus, with the aid of a sascnster and a s/lS" drill, you can. sake a ccsplete survey of the efficiencies of the exhaust ** * 1 systess os the ships under construction is your yard. . ' Few, tiara is another trick which we saw for the f irst tisa on our recent inspection of soae of the shipyards on the ~est Coast. Let us taka a look at this. _ It is sisply a vaepuua cleaner wi th a natal hose '. * , ' *' * attached to it on the intake side, and it denonstrates tery clearly *y that a Taceuus cleaner bag can pick up welding fuses and hold then. This does not require, any.`exhaust duct to take fuses to the outside, *, ** i, . ^ __ _ for the-fuse's -are- dram into the rae/uus cleaner, are trapped into the bag, and they stay there. ", . - (There was a desonstra tion with the tucuus cleeser drawing off the fuse s frcs the welding) 1SE. EOSSj. Few that is our welding deaonstration which we wanted to shew you. Do you hare any questions? __ QUESnCIT: Does that bag hold tins fuses? EE.'EOSS: Tes, it does. . . ' ' QUESTICF: Is it'proposed then that that si; it be used in tight spots?, o\- * .ID^.-EOSSi Tes that sight Tery well be used in a tough spot. It is . really .quite els ingenious affair. It is seset: .ing we hare seen only but there is no reason it could not be adapted for use yh your yard. 12 C I night sention as a result of Dr. Eieke's question that it is _ particularly desirable to use local exhaust oa galvanized iron, or when it is oa p&iated netal. It is aot at all uausual ia L'aritine yards for sene of the fittings and plates to-be painted -with red lead an-* I later welded, and the ireid aftaf~thBhr~ir paialed mice .agad-aj---Inose__ fuaes that are generated ia that process should be brought cut at the" * . . . * # . point of their generation so they won't be diffused throughout the con- partnent, ccatar.inatiag the whole working space. QCaSTIOlT: Does it take two nen to operate_ that gadget? . ROSS: That is a very good point. . Q'CZSTICE: I say that, because where I cone froa we hare pretty snail ianer-bottons, and pretty snail fore-peaks, and sonstines we hare to try.to squeeze three welders down there end a half a dozen other people want- to cone down end look at it, end so forth, and I knew if I try to get six welders in there and a nan to help each welder, I will hare to aeke the ships bigger or the nen snail. HE. ROSS':-- The question is: does it take two nen to operate this local exhaust, and the answer is, "Ho"'. It is a .* little more .difficult to hardle a tuba such as we have here, because * ' ** . . it will not stay where it is put. The ratal hose, such as we have ia. .* * * .* . #' . * ,' this vacuus cleaaer is better ia that reject. ' * QUESTION: But he could-not hold it six inches fron his-arc. . It .*. * %. * . . ` 1 . ' would be iapossible. \ .- . '* *. * * ' . ^____________----_-- ------ 113. BOSS-:--lb depea57"Of"course, oa where'he~is"weldirg. f * QJJZSIIOIT: Suppose he has to do some other welding, some side plate weldirg, he would have to rig up a little gadget to haag it there. He eight do that. ' /,' ' ' UR. ROSS: Tes, he might do that. Ee must use his iagesuity sad see . % . ** ** if.he carrot-hol'd it close to his arc. If"he carrot use the local exhaust he will resort to --rertilatior by dilute or. '. ' OGESTIOE: That is what wo do, or wo try to do it. . . MR+- RC-SS; Tes., As a rule, you.will fird it is going- to require a combination of bo-in. QUISTTOE: Hew close car you get that hose to the arc before it ary effect c the weldirg process? . ' ROSS; The hose should be within six or eight inches, of the arc. 122 QOZSriOIT: TThat is the closest 70U can get? . *. . , IQ.* HOSS: I rrould imagine that would be detemined largely by circunstasea* It would cot interfere a bit* If you should get it very close, eventually it.would begin to pick up the sparks, but so long as you are not exhausting in a spot that is dangerous, they will go out before-they get very far* ' . _______________ _--`---------- ---" QUESTION; Don't you thick it would be well to tell about the efficiency of the type of- bell horn, which increases the efficiency of the hose approximately . . *< * * IS. SCSSs I have not seen a figure as high as that* however, the effic ency is increased substantially when a bell nouth is put on the end of , * , ' *. ' * * the hose* In fact, almost any shape helps a great deal*. Jl flaring nouth or bell nouth, even a straight flange across the end, will help to extend . * * . *` the sons of influence _`over what it is what it Is with a plain opening. It sonstines is difficult to adopt that on a local exhaust, since the bell nouth night then'interfere with carrying it around and getting into tight places* '' . QUESTION: How. about the four inch hcse? 1G*-EC SS: The four inch hose is a natter of c. ce* 122 QUESTION: TTLat is the closest you can get? . . IS. EQSS: I would imagine that would be determined largely by circusstenca. It -would rot interfere a bit. If you should get it very close, eventually it--would begin to pick up the sparks, bat so long as_you are not exhausting in a spot that is dangerous, they -will go out before-they get very f ar. f - > - _______ - ' "" 'y___________ r------- --:------ " - -- "' ** QUESTION: Don't you. think it would be -well to tell about the efficiency of the type of'bell horn, which increases the efficiency of the hose approximately 8C^? . _ ', . IS. ECSS; I have not seen a figore as high as that. Eowever, the effie ency is increased substantially when a bell .nouth is put on the end of *4 * * . * '. ' * * the hose. In fact, almost any shape helps a great deal.. 1 flaring nouth or bell' nouth, even a straight- flange across the end, -will help to extend \ . ' the ron* e o* f influeSnc'e 'o`ve^ r w,ha*t it is wh` at it is w4 ith a plain openi.ng. It soaetines is difficult to adopt that on a local exhaust, since the bell .. ' , \ . * * . * * ** ' ` , ' ncuth night then'interfere with carrying it around getting into tight daces. \- *` ` .; . QUESTIONS Ecw. about the four inch hcse? '' . . -v HE.-EC SS: The faur inch hose- is a natter of choice. The four inch hose is, cf . 123 course, a. little care bulky, arid possibly would cot be so easy to get .into tight places* .But oa the other hacd it offers lower resistance ' m* *% to air flow than does the three inch. ** .* '- * QUZSriCa: I wanted to ask a question. About four years ago, I was , . iU .Ta'ty-^f>r?rr*T1 .v ,, . * _ ' _____ ----1 ft* H-y rfftr-l- tr ^f StiTr--f i '"TTr ~7nre ` ** ' * repairing a -ship down there, and'they had fire or sin welders in the*' bottoa of an imerbottoa, and they had a large induced draft fan. It was sitting right where the welder was in the inner batten without any general ventilation, end all he did was* just as fast as these sin- welders were working,- it would bring those funes right up through the. hole like that- TTould that be a good'idea, to use sonething like that, or is this better. " . ` * HR. ROSS: Of course, the fellows who like this, or the fellows who like dilution by general ventilation or pretty evenly divided. I think ` \ '*''.,,-*** * ' .' this (referring to local enhaust) is core efficient because you have to renove a lot 'of air to clear cut a ccrpartrent by general ventilation, whereas crly two hundred c.f.n. will do the sane job here. It is a difficult cuestfcn to answer, and I think' it depends entirely on circun stances. ` *. . ` ' . 1. . . QURSH02I:- 17a nearly had avi ry unfortunate situation with rubber hose in our yard. - Ts just aheu- ; snothered seven nan. TTe were very *> fortunate in getting then out- So we personally would not allow any rubber hose inside- the- shin at 124 ell. * . ` `* " # * * * * '' -; ' .. * . ' IS*. #ROSS: That is a-very interesting 4 . 1. _ observation* TTe usedthis rubber hose simply because it happened to ccse with our display eoiipment* * * t* _.4tcr_it_h&s_ been .used for a ?diile/ it Trill bee ora frayed, aad * '* * . * the canvas will catch the sparks aad a fire will surely result* I knew*- ire had a lot of trouble with it, and we finally threw all the rubber hose out*. ` ' 12* ROSS; That is very interesting* . .QUZSTXQI.T: Ur* chairman, a *t Herrin 4. 5 Shi*p, we u^e * fle. xible natal hose, three inch, end we have a similar set-up, but it is very difficult to get your hose within six inches waerer.a production ?relder night be welding * *. * in an iaaerbottoa* If you have ever been down in an imerbotten, . you will find a three inch flexible hose cannot bend back on itself ' within thirty inches of the floor, and so it is not absolutely practical from the viewpoint of a production welder, where yen get sin or seven of then in an irherbottsmvfcank*' TTe have provided a long five inch main' ; * ** . ' * - ` *' duct off which we take the three inch hose, and we figure if we c an get within a couple of feet in an irnerbetten, when they ere getting down close to the deep tank, we are doing pretty well. 3ut the flexible pipe has proved pretty successful with us for that* . ` . 125 IS* BOSS? *Ihat is a good point* As a natter of fact, we hare paid a great deal of attention to imerbottons. TTe have alL but slept in then at one tine or another to see what the conditions are in there, end I Trill agree with you, it is not the easiest -thing to use these coils of hose in that confined space. Again, the .circunstances.will govern the proceeds * , . * * . . X thi nk if you get the hose to wind in among the manholes of your flo'oring that will possibly do it. But it is a good point. ' QUZSTICIT: These ventilation standards are somewhat similar to the ' safety standards and are of the. "shall be", and "mist be" type. In other words, as you have in that safety standard, you have "shall be" and "will be"*. - ' ' '. ' . MR. 1CSS: Well, sir, wo are taking quite a practical viewpoint of . this whole thing.. Xs far as we are concerned', we think that you Trill . - ' ' `* * . feel that it "shall be." In other words, we are sirply after ventilation, adequate ventilation* ' We want to see the ships clean, the men ' breathing acceptable air- `: ' . I . QUISTIGI: That is quite true from, a humanitarian standpoint, but I *an` wonderin-g-an *far as your p,hraseolo, gy is con, ce,rn(ed. There it says "shall be" and in the other meeting it says "shall be" it means do it* , MB. R2SR: Tcu nay find the wording a little abrupt, I will agree- \\ V4 i /2.G r 4! ...jrt EE-. JOHZI F. EGZ, Jr-, ( Ensign, Boston, Massachusetts) : ' First of all, I would like to-say something about respirators. \ ' toJt. ' '< If you all look X at y'our health minimum standards, you will find in Section B a discussion on respirator's a' i * . > * t The most inoortant point is that the respirators must be Bureau of Mines anorcved. . * ` . ;' " < have here on display pictures of all the respirators which'have Bureau of Mines .. ' ij approval.The advantage of having such a reouirenent.assurance that the respirators * -* ' .* * m '"'Ml be well designed and wilM-eive adeouate protection. In the section oh general ' | JN * V; V * qui"enents, adequate protection is defined. J2--7^ *V /s1/ < m In'the pages -that follow, where more thecrore type.. of respirator is sectioned the - choic>e. derpends upron*: the degrss-.fcf the hasardW. tnhya-tai^su^a.t,-h^ and 1 ~^ ' VT4'-. ' Lwould*like to add sonething to what has already been said about the lead poison-? ' '-r-V a fujarct ________ i** hazard. It is possible -to 'have'^either when psiht-is sprayed - *--* or when lead painte^d ' surfaces are welded or heated to a similar degree. . .' ' A\s-you all probably know,*' it is very diffic* ult to ventilate . *lead fumes down to ' -a concentration which will not 'cause'lead poisoning. The concentration would have to be less than 0.15 milligrams per cubic meter of airfor a continuous exposure. Kcw, ,i .. . ' tfive. milligrams -rs a concentration which none of you would consider especially bad. ' This morning you were in a concentration of this order in the century room. To expect ^. * ' men to give proper respect .toy^cncentration of less than 0.!5 ' ` ta-ntha-of- a nilligrams is-almost too much to ask . ' '' .* * -* ' f, *. *^f* '" - i. ^ , rAn'added dlficulty is that^the jobs are usually "pick-up" in nature. They involve. '' ** many short exposures .for a welder throughout the day at^many locations on the ship. . Ventilation is even more difficult, and respirators are a solution. In general, however . *- - * -'S' V ' " ' respirators are a last resort, because control by ventilation is likely to be mere. ______ * * # .* . <* ' sucessful and is in addition is more ccnfortable for the men. * * < ; * . . > -. . ` Tie are.-insisting that respirators for protection against lead fumes be Bureau of Approved* 's* ' . .' ' Uines^ hero are samples from the two companies having approval. It is emphasised *^ * that the respirators of these two companies, are the only ones to date having approval.-. r As yet, neither company has a model which has bees, approved for , . ** * * " ^ * protection against red lead point spray, however, each has respirators, 1. . . * * which preliminary tests indieateywill be approved by the Bureau. The Hine Safety Appliances Company is'showing two types for lead fume protection. One of the models is designed to fit under, the welders ' helmet. Another has a face-piece designed for women. Two other types have been submitted to the Bureau for protection against red lead paint sprays. . . TTillson Products Company has two respirators approved for protection against lead fuses hare a nodel designed for tronen and another Y for wearing under idle welders* helmet- MecTe(s ACiiOj-neA' or frci&zho*' t'ci lead paiwjr sprigs 2fd to tm- su.bw.ittei *o the, Bureau. 4ooft* ' It is pointed cut thai^the filters of'the respirators' of both companies are the paper throw-away type- Thus, when the resistance of these respirators builds up and they become uncomfortable to wear, the paper filters are discarded. In the case of lead fumes, the time for discarding filters should be left up to the sen. In the case of paint * *' *^ spray mists, the filters should be thrown away daily or mors frequently if necessary. J , . . * . There are salesmen here from each of the companies -- Llr. Charlton .. . : . ,, . * ___ _______ - uf Willsc-a Products Co./ and. Hr. Il^bs-rfey Safety Anoliances. * - " * -A'*. 1 * w*,-. * \ **. **U*** frv*. -** ; .*,, l * * * , * `- * . / . *az..C-..S ***"** ^ ' `, ^ '..Both cf. these gentlemen. Tgp glad*to'^discuss your- respiratci^SrobQbs ' ` ' - *T'" * ` l. and tell yots-maro* about the respirators which are being shewn here today r: ` `i'- 5cw, in. comeetion with lead, poisoning, it is necessary to make analyses of air, blood, or urine, in order to establish whether'or not or C f -C Mess Ceases vrvich a.*: so be used by She -- a--*e Commission field --e-- ^ /' in making these analyses. For those who west then, we here mimeographed , jpasshjets which describe the analytical methods. for the determination ' ~s'" .. * - .. ' `r ' . , . ` . of 'esS in both urine and blood. These are available here at the neettar, ^ 1 71! r * . - or through the sail by request. `* la connection with welding, again, 2 would like to say* s onething about the nature of welding funes fron black iron. The intense heat of _ . mi the arc vaporises the neta! coastituents"of the -rod aad"*base netai^ t- ' "axi..in AeeeraL t tVew Tire %\o^. exit hesij oxidise in the air. ; The color of thdstfunej is a chocolate "orcwn^ There are also some gxses formed -- oxides of nitrogen and osone are ' typical examples. Osone does not seen to offer a danger. In the case of the oxides of nitrogen, however, there nay be danger if the welding is ' v done in confined spaces where there is little ventilation. In both cases, the gases are so diluted that they are invisible. Both are -pulnonary irritants. There are other -ftmot r.r.i- gases which are not Along with these fuses and gases, any coating such as paint will contribute fuses* Lead paint will give lead oxide fuses, and galvanized plates will give sine oxide fumes. The first is a source of lead poison ing, and the second nay canse 'bine shakes". . . . It is extremely important "to understand just what the effects of the fuses on the sen will be. The sen themselves rarely knew and usually speculate about the effects. They range between two extremes.' There is the min who knows the worst will happen, and he will attribute many . common ailments to breathing the air near a welding job. On the other hand, wr*e h_a_v_e__th__e__m_a_n_w__h--o--h--a--s--n--'t---t-h-e----s--l-ig--h--t-e--s--t---c--o--nc--e-r-n- ; fo`r the welditn- fumes* ^some accurate evaluation of the fuse concentrations could be made, then, knowing what' the safe concentrations are, the adequacy or need for ventilation is at once apparent. It has been shewn that thirty milligrams of total fume in a cubic --o'tsT of air is a reasonable standard when there are no toxic fumes present. At this concentration, the air is slightly haiy. The fumes ^a5r~_to interfere with work, but the concentration is not uncomfortable. I I VI *i r If the air is kept below this level, the gas concentrations are also well within the safe linits ^ ^ . .- ' ' y. In order to judge conditions, we designed a senpling ins^ment which makes use of .a-sheet -Of filter "paper. The instrument 7.-as made up in a few days. .It consists of a Sears and Roebuck tire punp end a few other metal parts which are available in almost any machine shop. r . The instrument makes rapid dateminations of fume'conditions possible. * Our standards were made on the basis of .three strokes of the pump, " .. wens . and I have here the standard' colors which -are formed on the paper. These are simply the stains of the welding fumes. In practice, three strokes are taken, and the resulting stain is compared ?rith standard , colors. You know what the concentrations are in less than a minute * " i* and can decide on the spot whether your conditions are above or below ' .par. .The sis field,men of the Maritime Commission will make these -* . tests on recuest. ____ .. -c sj ' ( A denoastratioa here followed.) _ _.. . - * --, la coaaeotioa with this work we'have also developed aaother fuse' saapler. * The iastruaeat is iae:q>easive, siaple, aad easy to use. It coasists of a vacuua cleaaer puap, aad a device for holdiag a sheet of filter paper so that air caa be drawa through it. The fuaes are thus ' `v collected oa the paper. The collectioa efficieacy^as detersiaed by e* xteasive tests- ,is e*xtre(! *aeVly high, aad with it wo are *ureo* ared to aake tests fcr all toxic wcldiag fuaes fouad ia shipyards. ______ ______ ^ /JZ /S3 i c t \ have mentioned, there is another source -- that of using,,hot rivets * %4 * on red leaded steel. Since it was shewn that there was no particular reason for using red lead, why wouldn't it be possible for the Maritime^ Commission Construction Section to substitute a nonttoxic paint? ^ *. .* * MR* EG2i Dr# Drinker discussed that earlier, and will say a few sore words about it later. # .. * I sight point out that-not only welding on lead painted surfaces, but any operation involving intense heat will vaporize the lead and create just as serious a hazard. '***"' *' 1 '\ * n .r~ 67k i 126' '|/j^ . ' QUESTION: Tou have to be abrupt If you want to get it done* ' . * ,, 'Ca U SR. ROSS: That is what we want, . I think we are both after the aaae thing.' The wording does not necessarily hare to cone up between us. . - ' _ Gentlesen, our tine is quite short. -5e hare--right hers * * * * .*i Er. John Egsn who has- eece very interre ting things to present * 1. / * to the group, .and. I' will now turn the raeeting over to -b '* ' HR* JOHN ?. EGS, Jr. t (Ensign, Boston, Massachusetts): j . " " c-.i .| First- -ef all I would liha to joah-a little bit oa- respirators-. ( If you all -hare your health niniaua standards you will find 1 ' * '' **- I . in Section B a discussion on respirators. .^ ; s ' .'Thu aoot Important point, you notice there,- is that the . .. -i y; respirators -asst be Bureau of Mines approved* Row, I have -fcr-yonr-"perasal-hgrs pictures- of all the respirators which - **"".** * * * . * are Bureau of Mines approvedr^sd --I win -leave that tk- here ' ,r;-- -* :` . i on. the deck,- and. if-any of you are interested in it, you css *; * g* *. *' .. ** oose- up, after the seetisg and-look*it-over. -'vXk*-v^-5"3-' trill notice sss&r.thsr general, reqnireaenta, that ade-- . " - v -a!; i;5-'' cu ^ * -t t .quate protection in-^iaoignhd^-and..-it-'is- recoasended ' that the IS '"rwsroiratora be confortcblo* . `' 127 . .In -the following pageswhere more than one type of ' roapirator Ifl mentioned, the choice depends, on the degree cf ` ' .. .. i the .hazard which -you hare- at'hand. " : Jt- would like to say a few words about the lead hazard 7 ' "again* ;-Xo^. heard-about this paint spray' hazard, and' : ...about ihe.fuae hazard caused by welding lead painted surfaces. -i . . Aa'.'you all probab-ly know, it is a very difficult Job to ` * \ . - ' i rentllate lead fumes down' to the concentration which would not Vx` . ' . 5 .cause lead poisoning* The figure is *15 milligrams per tenth I | 7,; " " * 1' "* ... ! -ef-a -tehis aster of cr>-.--`Hoxrr ten aiTHgrams per, cubic .foot ! J . ' * 4 - :V - . .. ' . . . ' *! of air is a concentration which'none of you would believe to ; . *` ' . . . ' 1 '..be especially bad. Tor" instance,-upstairs thismorning in the' .. ... .^..v ` I room,the concentration of emohe in the &!ur was-probably about; flve.'-millgmna,' or possibly teiu' To expect people; to beware /.-ef-ar-hamard when~the concentration must-be kept down-to less -. ''' : -;V r: i * . ' ." * '. than two--tenths o.. f a. aSLine'ter is- somethin*g t(hat is alm. ost *. . ' ' : ' . ' _ V\iapoesilrl?r''tb' r v '* . .`-Xe ore insisting, that'respirators be Bureau of Ifines approved. for lead- fumes, and 1 hare here samples which the w. w. *. , :vs *7-- ,r :-^r .. ** ] "-*-i'^-"sVr.Thia-cn* e,rK,. gs,*.* a*p*pro*v. ma^lt vfor .. na**t*a*l**fuse's. This 'one he I . .** ..* - *- * .. _ .. ... approval for-' astal fcrsggy and in- .dealgnsdkto- -*.tmd31- a. --c.. '--'.i '.\. . .-. _ . . ....... . -- . I- ' 128 *1 -aref. ala., two respirators here which hare- not as yet the - ! 1 urval of the Bureau of tfines for lead slate, that ia, those' IV- .... - - l\ . canned by spray painting. However, these approvals are be- . # ; ** : fj riiered-to- be' forthcpaing_saonr iSrill leave_ these reeplrators here'and"you nay one up after tbs' meeting and looi then 1 over# Willson Products hare annulled us with three respiratl '. ' . .i ors, two of which, are^ designed for lead funes, and these are the. respirators that are-.to be used in controlling the problem ' * ` * of lead fuses* I will leave both of these up here n.nl you -ft " ` ` * . ' - * . .. V can look at these after the meeting .Is over* . : I I i f ! v In both types of respirators here we hare Replaceable ' ( Reaper fillers, which'are thrown away. Toucan'realise the 'aSrantaga*" of^Ear'ing ouch, a wysttra. It does not mean that you ,V ; - . . ~ \I hare to throw the. complete respirator away. Xau. need only , -v throw-away' a.'small felt or .paper filler, which is very in- * * . **., **,. ,* . .*,* y . *--..*.* > *. .. ^ * *. . i' i JI '_enpenaive*'''-T' .'V-'-v.--v ' * . V. ' i .:vv;- ..o There, are salesmen in. attendance here from each of the' | ,-.VV- t v- _ *-- j 1 _ companies**' ''There is 3r. Charlton from the Willson Products, and Mr-; Hfthsff aj of Hln* SAfoty Appll^naKgT n.rrd br> - *1 , * _T' - _ ' , ">*\.'**T.*/*r*. ..*';*T***V-*\-***l+` VrV4 . VI; gantienen. would be-J^inj3L: to-; diacasa * jour.' reap irator problems- j r*.;* * V j :-- ..>* .**%i.^-t*,^.**;.m. ..* -.pr.*' VVwith you agd tftTT 'wm.^ --V 'I bit. 'ca^ abnut the reonlrators: '.'-.V-V rr- .: . J -,'.-' . ; '...J .1 VV;that"arc being shewn.horn today*.:-v~.T-r-i. >.`.'v .* ;. V -- .'i .* . ,v ! * * ** 'j * * i** , ** " \ *. * ** - - * ' * ^ ,v-i ; ' . v ; j :Vy;-v,-;.V?IIonr;;lR'_connowticrn\with..lead-pinanins, it in also-. _ j S rj * --.* ^* v if *?*;-'**'`V****"' '** rV ***?..`*****V***. - *..* .1" 7 . , ** . ' t - ; t. $e^essary. to de-o.eaa typer, .of-air*, analysis ,^r wri r^Tyaig 'to II * .. *..*,.'.*r.r..**.-t*.5^-:*tz, > "v* ^* `fV',v/--*.,* l^eotahlish. whothar.or not..there ia v-V a .hacard present*. -'-r. TTe have a laboratory set up on .the East and West Coasts which. 1 ..through these analyses for you If you desire* I hare 3- ' ' - .... ' ` ' '' -` . brought-along with me a mimeographed sheet which describes j* the analytical methods of the determination of lead in both 1 ____ .. I! urine and blood, and .if..there are any of you here who desir*. s. one of these, you can.get it after the meeting* --- . i ' In connection with welding, again, I -could lihe siuuly 5 , !Xt|; to say something about the nature of welding Tunes when tare .steel or black iron .is welded. The intense heat of the arc .25-7`- -- . * ' **- ' * .. | Topcriseo the metalo, `ahd these oxidise in the air and are constituents of the fuses. There are also substances of an r organic' nature which constitute part of the fune, The color '5 - . _. if `of this fune .is a brownish chocolate -color. I.suppose all.-ol 5. you have.seen it at. some tine or.other, ' e ' r * *. ' ..' ' ' ' . | .".;Bocr,.-.in.connecti-ern with*welding, there are.some gases ' i formed,' Oxides of nitrogen and exone, are typieal examples, V fl j The-welders. thens elves ,.-ef course; notice-the effect of these j .22-3 on-them, .nisi there "are two. types of .Individuals, in ` general;- these who fear-the woi3t,,JLs .going to happen, when the breathe these welding'fusee-p. and there la .the other'extreme , ^|'!'thg."lnfl.i7idual..who docs nat'. thinh that anything could poo-- ` vVV*/ . '-.A olfcly-*.happen- to him-when. hs breathes the--'fuses of welding . .** ~ '.-'W i.V *- '* - *' - : * urtO *. :sj+3' 'rrP" rrl T o t utilises a piece of filter paper. The inatruaent was designed { : - ij by ua In about two or throe days. It conn tats of a Sears .*!* * * * * t` , '.!i Roebuck pusp and a few other netal carts whlci are available !* ' '. _ . * * `v * " -__ " t -in alnoat any nachine whop. If any of you desire, jou could f . . -* ' [ bar* theae pop guns or pump guns, .whatever you -sant to^call u* .ij then* sade uo, and. then you could-have a very rapid aetkod u. * * * I i of doteralnlng Just how bad your fune conditions are. I .* '* ' ' s. Oar standards cere na.de on the basis of three strokes of f .. ' r* \ . . ' * * .. !; . the puarp gun, and I have here the standard colors which are i -1 `V .. r ' foraed on the paper. These\ar eiaply the stains of the S' * * .* * ; welding fuaas, ,.ad Jln._pmctice.all that is necessary la'to F ' f-.-^uat take-three strokes of the gun, take the paper out, and_ ire it with the standard. .Xou. then hare an analysis in r;. . . .............................. .. . s' vJuat- that- such tise^-. ,2bu know- ezactly what the concentration jj-. of fUaeff th' the air is*- Since ee..have also, set ..up .standards, J.; it.'.'ia very sinplc to''decide on the snot whether your air S.. conditions, arc-below par or encclient.or- Just- what they are. |j! \Tho ois non who ,arc .t.o go with Ha.ritlne Connioe'ion on. this ^^calih'pgggraa will- each have- ouch, an instruneirt, and they"' .-;..octxld jpa throat' jn^rghf^yn-ng with.you and teIX you in a *. .* :T`i` -* .*1 j- * ~ -J*.'V*: *. * '*'..*-*v* . ~~ |j4* * - ` t -ti* ;- . ;-.V - 'A;. -1 * * . . -i * *.*. *` * -- * I'~T?c:^crn' cT `a\Sectioa' lust;'how'-good or bad' your fsaane eondi-- X.wcul!l Ilka :t tabi. a' teort. ewer the .weldins wro-itaelf ' - .. v. ~ > j;.-;and.'show..you .tha'fftaia-1, that- wac-' forsed> 2' innginc- it would ` :>--H'-'V*>T.' ' -v . .`be wnr^; r^rttt*t.` drvr^nr- nrr*r odT thoso1-! have.* Theflo- ntnnrta-rfr 72k ,, ` HI'" . . -... .*.. : ....... . * . ' I. 131 * ' Taro prepared by welding.in a fume--chamber. The air wan kept . ** )i `i , w' B J B. '5 In constant circulation and the concentrations of fune in the air were determined by standard methods-, _and then by taking samples with the gun'at intervals -we -arrived at thin standard, which isr that of 30 milligrams of 'fuse per cubic meter of air. . (A demonstration here followed.) i -- . '\ HR. 2S2: That was about one stroke of the pump, and it r **i * in ' is far in excess of anything you can see on these standards. ** /* After the meeting you .can all come up and take a look at the . pump that we hare and see how it works, s-nd decide among - - ' .. ' ' . i yourselves whether any of you would like to have such an . '. j .Instrument in jour possession* ' ' ; - . 'j i! I . ** ' * *'*'.* ' * * .1 .. TSe-havw also .developed one ether instrument for ^asp-ling \ - .fumes .and air* At present there _qre- two-methods of sampling ' . ' . - - '*.. ... . - * ~ .... , -. *. j lead fumes, . sine .fumes and other metal oxide ftimes* Both of j : i these methods we felt were not good enough for our purposes, ' ' so we set'out-; to develop a method which would be rm&h simpler ' . )i - ' `* i and such easier to handle in the...field* It consists of a i ; . raauuuToieansr, punpr jss. 'ordinary-household piece of caulu- ! -neat, - and a device fair holdli;s~ a piece of filter paper in a :V .\~'Z ,'rX' "I..* .a- ' .funnal^like. apparatus.*' The air is'simply drawn through the J | "filter paper,, and.tha fuses are' collected on the paper* *- T*~**`*i,yw* *i.j **%"* *V:-/.-. * .* `.a..* - y.?~. . **-- - *' * * -' ' * * :3Xia soxa .extensive - toatp. ca the caHoction efficiency -this .instrument for- lend fumes* She efficienciaa were- !* ' '***'*.* ' f */.**. * , f * ''+ *' ..i -- y ./* *##* *** 4 . .V-* * . *J ' * - ' ` ..< ` " * ' ' * ". * extremely high and the .instruncnt hm5.:n5>'w-' ------------ -- the present, nethods -of .collectIon* / _ - * He hare these instruments In both. laboratories, that is, on each c. oast, and with *these we won. ld make the fume deters . ' , '' i* # inationo* " " ' . I would lihe to chow this equipment and show you how it .$ works* - ' .* * " j; . (Demonstration continued*) E ' - ` v . ' $ .HR* BIS: On the -second test we get this fume collected 1 * . *.*..*. ** i '\ on the paper* How, we hare found this instrument to hare a ' li | rery high collection efficiency, for lead fuses j and it will !' work, also,"equally ns well, for those, of zinc or any other l " v .. seta! rtnaes jou cone la contact "crlth la the shipculldlng la- -f * dustry*' . Shis la a larice'we hare made, and if any of you * pI - , . . ^ ... t . ' 8 -care to'-look..it orer^fter khe meeting, you Eay.lo so* QUESTION: After we da make up- one of those, how are we :C S. . - '*'-....to know what we are looking at? * ' . " .. . '* HR.'- ES-2: As 1 said before, it is -net intended that each jj . *****. ,* ^ . * ' . ;' of the safety- engineers, or each of the. yards build this piece 1 "of 'equipment*:;-: Tn theT'first,. yT nnm/_ jt. `rwpi t-V,. .th ..warfg--of---- -j.-v.tt chartist Wdctomino- "jUoU.'what the fumo concentration la,.' V'ccad it would'be iirpractiealrfor'the `safety engineers of the / 3 ' --VV\.\ * .V j'-"..plants to do-that' typa'ef. work* Hauerer, with this ether .* S'-''-7*' v*:/*- -V**i <" - - .* \ . /.* -;* * ' * . . '.- aanpler,r you. need* only .abstain, on a piece `of paper to dotarmi. *6. .* ,vJ ~ .* **.' '* . * : . * * rjb:; JJnst what your conditions- are, and that in what we reconnend* * ~*-**'-JK'-:--'"-i. .* - .'v-- "il. -` Q2J3SSICH: . Are you prepared to- giro- us those rarious- / ( 74h r. (. * i* color charts? ~ * -- , . :. t. . I? _ . CHAIH2IAH DRI2XZR: ' tfe Trill if you ask for then* ' ' HR. EG-2: As a satter of fact, the color chart is prt ably unnecessary, because you will see, If you cose up latt . iJi0iI! the first standard has a stain on It which" is Just per- * * ** m i ceptlble* That was cade with one stroke of the -gun. Con sequently, If you went out with one of these instruments an Just used one strike and got & stain on the paper, or one that was Just barely-perceptible, your conditions would be ' good* The difference between that one and the one on the end are .easily renesbered by anyone* So' a whole series of these standards wrould 'rot he necessary for you* \v.**.: S': [/', UH. BSI2E: . Is that standardIn relation to soae par : ticular nuaber, .or Juat nuisance dust in general, or what? y`;; HR*. SSSr The fuse was generated in a welding chamber* a . II | It wae done on black iron with standard welding rods, We rt' . ' - '--x " r '*'*- : ... . ' hare tried.three or four other roda and the stain on all of ".ij _ ' then la identical* Just go out In the yard and use it .. 1 under--the conditions that we find* TV at. ia thn. -tVa-t serwice to the Harl- 'analyse for any co3'6 man, gas. or vapor wmch causes occupational *:.* C.-*.*-* *;* *.*'*/ *. ., . .. . ' * diseaoea*.' V ^ SKr jo'---:' r;',.-. *-> S' S. * ` . 'QjnSSTTCn: Hr* Sge, 'you hare been nentioned here the . /?**' V;' ^ , w ** . ..f`V( ^ ' * . * m* ' * * . *' poeoibility of lead, fumes fron welding on pro-painted red lead surfaces. . It has teen called to our attention that _** several cases hare resulted fron the use of hot rivets on holes that had teen drilled, and the red lead had penetrated l|- into'the inside of the hole* Considerable study was made 11 /' -' . * at the tine that it was found, and it w&a found that-there i . . . .' H waa no particular reaaon for using red lead. It is aore of tMf . ' * 5 a custoa than anything else, and it seess to ne that one of l! # !S the things that eight develop froa this nee ting is the fact h ' . -' that a reccnaendation he nade, possibly to the Maritime Con- s ' nission Construction Seotioh, that a lacquer which is equally n. , l good as a preservative for steel plate could be'-used in place 1 : ' 'of the red lead that is used supposedly as a preservative* Chile it'does act as a preservative, I do not thlni it is ' ! essential*. s;: . . . . . .j I EH* 'EG2: Ur* Urinher tooh that subject up, with the doctors before the safety engineers cane down, and he will - V *: .. speak a little acre,about that later* . . *_ \ **.'* * * * *,***. * ' ' * * . \X night point out that not only welding on lead painted ^surfaces, but any operation at all in which tersfii^-h^-p^r-- .v.izcrclredy will, vaporise the lead and create Just as serious *I 5 ^ * ' , . . ?,i- .. - 1-;.a*hazard aa welding will*'- ' :" * v?; \ * .* * ' * nHftThilAS DHEIXSHr There is nothing we welcone core than - t ':' '^,1-*** -K:t^a`.'^aT 'this.' organisation, tuko the position that early paint-- K * ^r*.* * ''* \,a (. * * *^^*%1.;*-\/* ,*?.*.*. . ***- . . * ** .* \4: s* }* .fj|6r**'* ins. with, read. lead, when ^ be_ .**-s'/A.t<*e,s. pti.,p.,,e^*.*d*.,-v,*-**. -a..n*_d_ . .** . *t.. of mYh^-\ o sc . a.S nr. esot-h*.oi'cn.s.ge*,ne& las:, etioncotuhldatbetheusereddslheoaudld 7Sk JEt. *L 13 h painting be avoided. If this group will take a strong posi tion on that, I think it trill hare a very definite effect. The easiest way to get out of this poaalble lead poisoning 1e ' r to avoid the lead painting"'!? some thing else can he done in stead, and it would seem to me such a thing as Hr. Haye has suggested is a very logical way out of it. We do not want to make analyses any more than you want to have them made. We would .like to avoid this lead hazard. The easiest* way to s avoid It la not to use the lead until after the welding has It * * v been done. n Sow, gentlemen, when Kr. Hoss was discussing ventilation, !' It wafl asked if os this Section 2-D there were any "musts* or I . j | *shalla* "here definitely`arc, and I can point cut a few | of them* ' * ., * ; | ` . .On- Page S-5 bn the local exhausta, we have specifications S .: 'in the first paragraph suggesting what the fan's capacity : "i. . . .' * ! should be. Designedly we do not name the fan. It does not i :1/Bake any* difference what you uae as long an it will do the 1 a fan for a looccal exhaust ...* * * 'j through the flexible | - V- ! e general vent Ha- V*. |...tica. is discussed,, under'B"> the second paragraoh, that two* n"..^ _ * . .... * ..... ^ ll^/parasr3.ph,9X is desirable sometinea to supply'a quantity f Vk n||* *V****S ** * * ^*- ,* .. *.'* *A .**"** . * , . , m ' air into tho- double bottom. Here a 2,000 c.f unit l.'nay *be.used.fr' ' .*' ' ' i Two paragraohs below that, again, there are some definite i* - * '` , figures giving capacities of the fan* - ' ; j: . * ; Finally, in next to the last paragraph, the final sen- I . _____ . . In tance, it says- , Vfi-j.nininun of 400 c.- f.s. per wel.der shall he i* . ; supplied to a given working space, snch as a deep tank when r general ventilation is-used alone." ': 1i` j; The question has been brought up as to what these veld- i! . s ing fumes may do, and what the health, hazard. reallJ is. Ther 5 ' i ji are- plenty of instances now to show that welding, even on i. |i black iron In a confined space, is a bad practice and an un- b* * \ healthful one. The reasons nay be due to the metal fumes. t<* * . ' * t ''They are probably due to a combination of the metal fumes, 1S3 and the slight amount of tonic gas which we get. Accidents ; from. welding and serious illneoa from welding'on black iron ,#* ,. . s .* * . ' ' j: `are very rare, very rare indeed. By and large, welding in t an open apace is not unhsalthful. .This demonstration would iI!; J . '. . * .4 | have been a perfectly good example. It would not have.been ' i! unhealthful in any way for the welder to weld here without * cntilatioEu Tou can sec the sane thing being done in - ahopa .practically all over the country with no bad results, * ** . . -* . ; _ * - .. + \ * ; | but. that la &TGT7 differont natter from putting four or five . ..** **'.-* *. weldore in a deep tank with no ventilation.1 Bhen you get on galvanised iron and are welding in double bottoms where galvanised piping is being installed, -the men are breathing | sino oxide, and you can gat the chills and f?er. nrt -* ( ^ * ................ 1c * <. * _ 7djC .. Anybody trill get then. -If the nan io exposed and breathing : it, he trill get-then- But they are very, rery easy to dratr N - i' off. But to cay that It can be done with lnpunity trithout * --Ventilation is absurd,' because it cannot. /The nen trill have r. ' . !t . # t trouble. They altraya hare and always trill, as long as^ they =* breathe the sine oxide fusee. ` ii . - . ` ` DR. RIaZ: The point io brought up, what ia a confined I; * * apace in a liberty boat? The question arises, ia it in the . hold or ia it in the foredeck exclusively and shaft alley an U . . ' . _ . . ? double bottons? Juat hotr big 13 a confined space. That is r 4 * , * l a question*. I do not ask you for an exact definition. 1 as B - . '' f _ for a relatively close definition. That ccaea un all the ti U \ . . .. .* i Sone nan dawn in the hold says that it ia too snoky in there 'i * ". ' ' for hin. How* ia that your, idea of a confined, space, or whs ii*-: * '* l #. . . . v t. '. .I . .. . s ia it? .. . `r**.. . .' R? CSAIfaLATT BRINj.hR: Tho.betting la pretty good If you - ` Vs- : . . . | look ah it-and see that it is good and thick with asoke, the. 11 ia -too. `snaky r_5ould p-:.'CEAIZnji3' BRISKER: _ Do.#'- X would hot against it? if it wc !I ' -. , .**'*kn/ .t'.v.w.' '.'..V' *.* fi*."'..'.-..'3r:*-..' .-.V. ..-...--. .. _ . _ j- .black'iron X. would'bet. ogainaf tha. chronic aspects ; ..* v *--***-. 1 + 'i* # /*m' ..-.-: *'>***. . ** * * .. .. - ' . * * BB*.'RXESSr-` .Ih..'nijh.'caafle acute tracheobronchlt ls.- -v..' . ' 3 CaAEQA3 ERIiiliRr Eafiaitaly^ ' '' | ~/ .y v\ jj ' Kl*. Rliidr ' Hot' enough'to nake ha serioualy ill.- 0 V .' ' .. . ..... * iss - . CHhIHHAfT DHXNIZR: ..I will-agree. - ~ -- . : ... Hr* Roche-ashed that the safety engineers' group please .remain here, as' he wishes to continue his discussion in this room." Vo will leave, the equipsent we have here, and I hope l very'much"that the doctors, if they want to stay for^the ` safety engineers' meeting will do so. They will he very welcome. However, those of you fellows who would liie to adjourn to one of the other rooms, ao that we can continue , . % thin discussion Informally, nay .do so. * * . OtO) I C J " "T: Just heforo you do, oy question was about r. .'.the shall* and'busts*, et cetera. That on the first page i* ' , * - i ' '.of Section. D -- not necessarily the remainder of it, but the ri*i i '.first page -- pertaining to the personnel of the department and ventilation standard*-- hag that been approved as yet? - . ' .....* CHAIRMAN IRIHEHR:'! That was not. aeant to be in the ' * **.,'* . t .. li . * shall* state. Va put that, out aa'a feeler to see your re-- ' ..H action.. .. ... - , . _ C.T_-hr e-.r-a. la ?.. nothing uniform at all . in the way ventiia- .. - t .... ^.v... / . -u ... >. .- \ . - .tion la handled in the yards. . If we could get a semblance / :.. ' . * *. ' *- X .* -' . 1. . of- uniformity within, a one itnita n-r ." ,'!, . .1 ------ i L - ~ . u mmia . V * .. to do .it^.'*' lie /thinh the ventilation ought to be under * ' * f * j1 ' _ -`t* . ( x-V ^ ^* . * , .jtha safety department* but wo. did. sot feel lihe putting it JL. . * i * v,\* ..jam. at. 3 must^or "shall?*.; In acne cases, we. hnow good yards _ ' whore thay have- good ventilation: arrangements new, and they ' **. v-t. *! >;. *=" *' ' ...am not; the'aana' ao. we have suggested hero. If they am . * \ t t v * .. ~ * * < , ; v% . . *, -* * . * . V good and: worhing, wo certainly do not intend to interfere. % 4* . # and that Is the reaeon, they -are -cot in .the shall*. . ' QU2STIC3: It is'in the "shall* here. - . * CHAI&1AH DRISKiR: Let us eaj ve are starting from ooratch, then. -- -------- ^ `* KEU RIEG: Before the doctors leave, I want to aek a M, c- 6 couple of quest ions. I always have to get right dotm on the h ihH 'beam on this thing. ' ! ' Is It definitely understood there is a complete agree- sm cent here aa far as the medical side is concerned, on the I l , * t ' ` * alaicua aedical standards except those things the committee 8* * ` la going to handle, which I understand is pre-placement . examinations and periodic check-ups, and the addition of -1 ' shortage of1 physicians in the yards. If it ian*t, let us 1 ' , * .. : ' V. ^ *' ** * 4 ' * \ 0 * A # , * _ _ .` ' hear it right no*, and IT we' need more time, let us take more ` . . . `I- . . time to go in and examine anything we need. Let us not ruah.-- anythir.g across. Eowr about it. now? I will count three, and * ` ` : f. ' if-. I do not hear a dissentby the tine three comes down, I 5. will taka it for granted that it is understood. .. : ii ,,w _______ ... ; jBit*v.SPEIICERt^ Gentlemen, la the South. * X do no*t Imotr * anything 'about the. rest cf the- country -- there urn he's' ... .* v .s.-r/.v> *; *,v v.;t..^ '.I ^question about tho reueirfeal diseases being .the most, isport- ' > ' . ant point in these yards. .In. Savannah one of" the yards took ... . '* blood, testa on'all oT'thd' employo.es, which were approximately **. ..v SO' - pe r-.*ce.n..taw*' ..hit.e s a. nd*. -. 5. 0 per cent colored, and found IB pr er oont poaitiVCo ' . - ' lira federal gar emnent tells us-we can get froa seven to nine-cases of-gonorrhea for each case of syphilis. It is a natter of common knowledge to everybody that syphilis is a' ...-**. ** # debilitating condition, and gonorrhea, although nor3 briefly, .. - ' ` . . -1 Ijb a disabling condition for a few* days* .' 'j * i - In nany cases the Department of Health is urgently | annlous to help us in all ways they can. If they can get a ' *' t 1 little help, they will cone into the yards and establish treatment centers for a minimum of cost, and do a.maximum* : amount of good, and I wonder if we could go on record of , ashing the Haritime-Commission to give a little consideration to the local health departments to enable them to tahe this - - . . . problem off - our. hands* _ , i i HR. EIuG:.- Aa I correct or incorrect that the Public - ' .. r . -r . . .j ij Health Service is conducting a nationwide campaign along that. ,* . *** '. * . I1 lino, that they have set up clinics at various points for ; treatment at Tarious places? It is ay recollection that that1 is one of the reasons we siirted clear of the venereal dis-- ' ease proposition whea'we were- drawing up these `standards was .that thepehhad -already been set afect by Dr* Parren a pretty widespread campaign.'- 'Sat I wrong in that7 . ' 'S''- - ' .* lSpznCEHr Tau arm not wrong la- that. There- are i . assemble- treatment cantara.- available to people who will go v ** - ':v? J* ** * ,* *` .1 ( them and got treatment* but a groat many* of the shipyard worhora commute long distances* sad a great, many of them Ufl they aro unable to meet the hours In which these clinics are held open,| and the length of tine it takes a man to leave *" the Job and go to oneof these treatment centers and come ^ _V* . t* . - bach la" unreasonable-.. . ................ ,, CHAXH5AN D3IHK221: How would it be if we communicated with the Public Health Service and suggested to them that In any yard where it appears there la a neoessity for treatment centers to tahe some action along that line? I am sure the Public Health Sendee has been cooperating with us in such a way that they will probably do everything in their power to ' ' '* . help out along that lino* It will be definitely understood, ' 'henr that will be the procedure in any yard where they feel there is a definite indication that there is a need existing 'fora treatment canter in the yard'to ash the Public Health r.'Servica to do something about setting that up* I will do * . that as soon as we get word, in from the various yards on that " . .EH-" BI2SZ:. 2y only suggestion on that is, you are not . in a position to 'carry through in many localities on that ___ -.program-- .* . * 'I/.***- uogiar~sisply indicate to them, our willingness to fs \ .. - ' ^ cooperate^with .the. Public Health programs-. Ho one will argue wciiareaiL'; disease needs." control* but many local phyei- - '.** r' . : c-nns- in many of the areas is tha country "feel that shipyard ;s "*' ' .*V r/j -.V ; ' ' . - ...worhara aro In' d good position to tata care of' the treatment* i . [ 4 ` # * * J t *, * *, * * < ' ,* '- ' . >* < * ,;:Ta other words, tha'Haritims Ccmnlaaioa la not- in a position I '"V; ---X 'K- *... Z'' *- ... . . to cay.to any local area,.* "Teu moot d vs-- Venereal disease.* . . * *^ \ *r . . . HR* CLAREHCH UAZHETT, (Labor Hanagement, Harine Ship, California): That about treatment of the common cold? I waa upatairs in the safety engineers, and I wondered^if this group had X d* iscussed the' treatment of the common cold in the Hamit ime Commission yards. It seems to iae on the West Coast, whsre ve hare so" ouch rain and working outside, that that is one of the biggest problems. I was wondering if it had been brought up- before this committee? ' ' .* EH. RIHG: I wlll^asl^J^r. Drinker to answer that, be cause I was up at the cis^L engineers most of the tine. '*CHAIHELAH DRUTEER: We did not discuss hers the common cold, at ail, or- any illness other than Industrial. Frankly, if! ue 'can' athy. cut of it, why,-we would like to. The import * .* \ ` . - 4 * * anoo of. it X will admit. * ., - \\ * ,, * . ' _r; - ' ' ` / ` ' ' HJL~ gAjfi&yt. The- workers would v* to stay out of it, -- -CHAIhsLAH LHXHEER.! So would n. the rest of us. and our r" V.' .... - ^wiyas~'gnd oUr^_clldranu.' X .hare, nat aeon a single inndduustrial ;* is** *; *> * * . . . .. *progrant yet" that '00500 with] the wnaoa cold' in .a way they **"?/ .*,,*** ' I/V.*\ \ - * y * >\ ' .*.*.*.* - . .-arc- especially proud'd:fV'- We' ear.r.ot answer that. X aeanr we -y*?**-;' ' -T. -.vv-r:v "t . -t;. - * * * * yS-J* sob anything' especial to* held cut.'for you. ` . ' . *.-*..tre : * factories- prescribed i*:.CHALviJL&I7 DHIlilihlt:. Hot with an*r m rr-nni 4* r* 84k V-- 14 "... .DR. CROFT;- A-nah.froa Abbott A Company cane around to . ` ` . ' ' * !1 see iae the other day, and he had a folder In which they : * , ,i clained large reductions In the lost days from colds by the j. vaeoineS,` but there is no way In the world of making that nan ' '' . ,, i take them. He is to take one A day for seven days, and.then' I one twice a week for the rest of the winter, and the chances ' are they throw them away. It is very unsatisfactory, froa ' ay experience. . ' .* ' i i I CHAIHHIH DRINXZR: Fron a health stan&oolnt, frankly, I ; .I do not think the Uaritine Cocsiasion and the Navy would get | ' ` . j away with It. I would hate to see us try It. I`do not think \ * ' *` ** ,we could get anywhere* Haybe we could, ` - ' * * wt : .DR. SPESCSR: One .of the questions "that troubles us a great, deal" is tetanus., especially' in the yards whore they . * ***. > * .*,, **. - #* 'build concrete shipa.ahd they get deep punctured wounds all'.. ' the tine. ..The adalnlatratlon of the anti-t'etand serus la a ./ dangerous procedure la oona cases, especially where it has ""been repeated t'ine after tine* HoreoTT,,,*( it. 1* p haw long, the adninintrutiott lasts froa a prophylactic dose. _ X. wonder Drinker would sfriae 'us''of the possibility of .^dealing with anti-totanic lnsnnlration, that is-, an anti tetanus toxoid, and aat'a aerunT. * .. -.CHAIKmi BH33S2R: X die net oee how we can evade that .y-' v .*** . ' . .. `.jane* "... X would'.Hke tc* - TTe-have not- considared that-'. X thin . -, ... '* to think of that* .1 cannot answer that right off the hat . * to what we ought to do, I ah frank to confess I think we ought to do sosething, ' * DR. RIEX2: I would suggest there are all aorta of thi of.that sort that are local-problems, and the Uaritlne_Cc=?=- mission cannot attempt to take a definite stand on then, ` . ^ For instance, our fluoroscopic heads were removed from our yards a few days ago on aocount of some unfortunate ac ci>dents at Los Angeles, At any rate, I would, say they eon aider the use of toroid if it is enough of a problem, . At Portland, it is not*' tfe have' thought about it and discussed it, but have not felt that we as a prophylactic y, neaaure- could even go into the idea of toroid* So again I . * * . ;;.feel that in a local problem which, the UasStine Conaission , ...Vwould bo looking for trouble on if they tried to generalise . .. too widely*^ v* . . ' ;. .. j" ; ;s,'...CHAIBHAN DRUnSRt' I_think it would be a local problen* ' If we wanted to give any such isauniration it would be extra ; ordinarily difficult to give it to all cf the sen in the - yard.,-- Th irrcr..wewld-notr^e-any 7ay 'of-enforcing it.' It. is no jj. s. problen such- as - the sraj1 or navy hare where-, they are hand- `ling recruited.. TTe can profit fron their experience, but we I-^ cannot-"do it the-way they-are doing, and we could'net. get * away with, it* r.. * i ..y; 'v-* "- ^^^rK 1 * * ** ^ C*.7RAZX2R> (Houston Shipbuilding Corporation, * '/* * * " , * ***_! .* , * *# *.* , . '* . ` ' Houston,..Texas): In-Section.C it says, *An eye flash, shall he treated only hy the doctor.* . / i* tv ' CHAIHUAN DRINKER: It cays, *or hy aethoda prescribed t; his," does it not? It says that somewhere. *` . HR. FRAZIER: That is in Section C, * effects on workers. CHAIHZIAN DRINKER: That could he modified to ucd only ! ' ! *' .( treatments that are .sup erris ed or prescrihed hy the doctor. * * That is a.good point. I agree that-ought to he changed. e gil*l c. hange i* t.` . * . ' . |! . . HR. BARQH D*- SNIDER, (Harine Ship Corporation, Sanalito1, California): I am not speaking as a medical man, Doctor, hut .... , -. | I am advisedhy some of the industrial doctors that one of ; .the difficulties in treating eye flaches is that the men do- ! '. ` * I 'not experience these symptoms until perhaps in the evening I . * . ` ' s- \ `. *! :*'***:'* . ' * .* * ' j when they are-far atray.from the medical center of the yards.' .The resuit_ is that they go to the general hospital or'to a hospital which perhaps has .not concentrated on-"the industrial arc flash and gives a relief which is cot only temporary hut' * . . * . . . 4 . *. ; actually irritates - the- condition itself, and hy the time the y . - . .1?. . . :-----------------------1 '.xrcrrsan cornea into- the shipyard the- next morning M a- ccndi- ' - .* i * 7 ' ... .... -i _'ticn. 13 .aggravated and it takes twice as- long for him to get v.'ever".!^..;. J^.IIcxine,' our medical director has reported that / that hai-happened. quite: fre<iaontly,. because many of their ` * ' C" ' /*' ~ .* *% * w'.'i. . >:.-w' -*'. ` . .. * * : - . 4 ^workers do*-not'live* la quite proxialty to the.yard. T'aa .r \, h r. v.- --i : c- ; - -- } wondering if any" sort- of action can- he taken which would per haps set forth, a-general procedure for these institutions to follow for the treatment In such cases* . . / ' , CEAIBHAH BRISKER: If you will look at -the standards yov rill see-that we purposely hare not prescribed treatment in detail in any single one of then* *e prefer not to do so if ,> * we can* ^e would rather leave that up to the individual physician. The yards, by and large, are getting the beat nedical help they can. From the inspections we nade they 'were good, in our opinion.' _ '. HE. SRE3ER: . 7e found a serious problem in our'particu- ' *. lar yard. There were many men who'were going to outside \* ` sources for treataent when they wake up at night. N . CEAXRIifiS DHISSSR: Tou nean because they were away from the yard? . . ,* . , -HR. S' SH3ZE: Tea, they have not'access , to it at that .* ' : . : -. time of night. ' ' ^v. v *' . * CEAUdlAH BRISKER: I think that is a'point we can dis cus a in-tie-medical group tomorrow, and we will* .' ' " *'UH* .SUITE: I have ono question, please,' on Page 3-b* ji *___ .v '. . .. ~ * * . ^ spoke & while ago about'ventilation in confined spaces. ' -.1 ^ -Xr." . v.% * I ,.srwe.dr four'sentences, there in that are very .applicable, . .|. to' decrease an accident .from breathing, funea,- eh cetera, and .- thor-last one,.'about the side, plate, has that boen taken up, I .- ' .. :v-^./.i v' :-.i- *. . -r V - ;tha. aids plate being, loft V -y -the Baritina Corn,3 solont" 5k ( Si r . 147 ` CHAIEHAH DRIESER: What we found La as- you go around in the various yards In done placeB it was all right to take of; * \' ** . the aide plates, and in others not* The Uaritine Coanisslor. * .-*'% * * itself has no objection to that* They leave it up to-the indivIdUaTTyarda* * . . ' ":'* * . , HR* SUITE: That is a definite ruling fron the Jtaritine* CEAIRHAN DRIJTKER: They leave it up to the yard* HR* SEITE: Well, how about cutting a hole through? 2 H In other words, is it a standard sise^ or does a nan have. to stoop to go through or crawl over., and also additional - .. .* excess holes for the hose? '.* * ' ' * CEAIEZLAH DRI2TESR: Js found the sane thing there, tooj * * * . * ' ' .* . ' ^that ruling would vary -with the yards. They leave a great , . ` .t --. , .. ** deal of leeway on that* ' \ ' * ' . .. /' / HR* RELLER:. What can the Haritia8 Cc emission do to help us haring .the Selective Service taking the'local doctor 'fron j *.* ` * . * * *i * * . ' * ,* *I . *'*''*"'. * * * .* . ._ j jj -cur town? .We`-talked*in the aedical group about the trouble "i ^^ * . * 4 * j .we*'are 'going to have,getting doctors to cose in to neet this j personnel standard we 'are setting up* ' . 'j I . ",^vC?^TTgiAg>T)RT?ii,Tr'!.^ in the *v,,Vng~'wwer are going* ' * *' ***. ** r * * ^ /4 ^ *.'** *--!*V****\fVa'***nV*"d5*^** iTVp_"<._**u .'*a**h2'*.--. *'i'_a**a* *'r1_es*1. ol.:.*uV i_t<>?io*.*n#*..xton' o* _.r**_ra w___ _, im*.n_, . ar" general seetf f'lrg*-. ,1 Wo will'`answer`.'that definitely* 'What-the result will Bow, If* that la the deal, It la the deal* > * Bow, Hr, Roche wants to get on with the safety side of It#. Are there any objections? ; DR* RIEZZ: I hare one sore. On Seotion C, under ,Flash burns,* I taie. exception -- and I may be wrong ... . . * ' to !| the statement that, *A flash is & surface eye bum resulting' . . ' i) from eren momentary unprotected exposure to the welding arc,*1 I' X object to that vise 'from eren momentary unprotected ex- ! B' , '. 'S " posure.* ' It io a. small point, but one of the potato I hare ; I ' ~ . |. | run into repeatedly la the misconception that most arc flash ing occurs from one bright arc, and the nan rans into the fir3h aid station and.cays, 'Give me some of those magic drops to prevent any trouble. * T7e put eye drops in their * .* "^ ** .eye, and he goes.hone, and has no trouble. He Bays, "Boss, those arc certainly swell drops for preventing eye trouble,* | _?e; have, through the'year had a lot of patients come into get medicine to prevent them developing symptoms. I thinh that shauldbe changed tor ,*A flash is & surface eye'bum . resulting froa undue exposurs'jB or "unexpected exposure to .-/'the welding arcr exposure should j:v..rroa^expoauru:,T Say "cxpocuro* and youara'safe' an- you can | i -vj............v^y *.. ; ... . ;. . r.,be*^. Isa1^that.what'"the hcicntlsta. always., want to do? . fh Tagne that nobody understands it. . . ' __ DR* -HcCOT: Something that la not corerod here is the practice of nurses removing foreign bodice. They are not : legally co qualified to carry on that operation. Will they ' he.,qualified because-of the.practice.under ran, or are they ; * i -* -, going to be held doun technically and slapped behind the i bara? ' * _ HR* BI3G: Dr. Drinker here Is looking for a eeotion ! that he says states that nurses are prohibited from that. . .` 'i ' , "DR. Hc. COI: As a natte,r of- fa* ot, oh t* he West. Coast that!i is the practice. ' . , ..HR. RI3G: .Dr*' Drinker in a very nice and polite and . - . " - I snaky ray/cants to knou trhether you read the third paragraph ' under Section C, ^that part that says,' "For use of safety -.lc:' ' - ' . '- - ' . 1 departments la shipyards; a guide for'prevention, of indua- V; v: .v;.:.-. ' / ...- trial disease in shipyards,* uhere it says: ."Foreign bodies! /In the eye shall be' removed qn&er the doctor* a orders only and by- methods he haa prescribed. * . - . DR*. HcCOI: That does not cover'it. If I stand over a .PPFPP' ker l3 to romovo that, foreign body from ^th<> a7_e*-thsfc deem net'.cover' It* because'he. is not legally .qaaldr^d.^eTeii'though-X tell him to, to'do it.- " . ' '// ny eye I as . ---- #*** *. ' > '' * s. ' ** ' * * * *\ : supposed # naVta aolc flayfeofly to put ths end ot a handkerchief.; * . <. *.* l ! M *. 1 i. M * * ., ,| ^ ; t V- i: ,.iato get It-cut.uniafla./it la'a'doctorT.. V `" 3 I " - ............... '.... ............................. J ,- * ' .' 150 ; '' ! . ' ....DR* UcCOI: Embedded corneal bodies, trhero he la using ' an Instrument* * . ' ' HR* Ri2<5: '' :. ' ` * ! | It only says here "foreign bodies la the eye shall be removed only under the doctor's orders or by methods .. * ' " . he has prescribed.* -If-it-Is not embeddedy-roertainly the doctor can ashsoaebody else to remove that* If it is ea- ! `' i bedded* certainly the doctor trill give no such orders as that, - * .* * i and if it is done by methods by hia' prescribed, certainly you 1 can say that if they are embedded you shall not do it* I ; .i * * # `' ** .thirds it" is covered* Let us interpret it as if it is covered ] anysay* .. . # ' ' # . k . - * .* * ' *, .. t . ` `ffe trill tafce it for granted, then, that these things ' '' | are the consensus of the group, subject to the reoorts of ; /v - *' r ; the committee to cone in, because tre trant to fcnotr that every body has had a. chance .to hammer them as such as they vant* "*i *:% ~C*, ** * v . .*;- ** * \ * . *. J T hope 'that Dr* HcCoy trill nottaie ny remaris along , ^ -. - -.J ..*-that line`as.being directed in any manner-personally, That is a very good point, to/be brought; up* ` In'V. - r ': * j-'--v; ` :/ -. '. '. v - - ' ' '` -: . * ' 'I --i trsmrt to -thanh you all very such, indeed, for the es> J ' * , ''*! **''*.*. * - 't J ce-Hant and rmllj fiMir.tim iH.n'i'Ht. ymi ni1 f jinlii.7% Into thii * *.'**-*/ * *Vv ' * * .*. * * *** * iT-/'2' thlng*_ -,. X oa reallygetting, proud of this trholc. thing* I tI ' vrr%. -1-wm *4- 4* '.jV . .V.' . r iritiae 3a - Man od-Tues ft see '*! !l 'I. ' ' ""7 ` ...................' 151 fast these days, that if we tahe up much tine we wind uo ' .. j behind the.'eight tall"', so far as our friends-across the sea are concerned. ' . . . ; I want to erpress ay thanfra to all of the medical aen l who have been in attendance-here, and for all of the wor-h. that you have done* _' (?Th8 meeting adjourned) .  PROCEEDIBGS . . CHAIKIAH EDCHE: 'This la not an informal meeting, but Lt you will recall, I toll you this morning .to take your hair down and your shoes off, and let us go to town. ' We are gcin^ to read'over the item Ho* 1, and we are going to read them ` erer one at a time* e have about two hours to do it, be- ' ' ' .* * * cause as soon as we finish here, we arc supposed to go down ' and see the welding and ventilation demonstration in the * American Roon. So, let us keep our eye on the clock, and ' *. i # discuss down to the point where it is useful. ' ** ,' * . ` `How, os you.rise for any point of discussion, please - ` " * * * ' give your name, your company, and your city. That is fer . . , = I thm record, so that you can get due credit for any sugges-^ tlons that, you night sake. *\ * '/ V 'Sow many of you have read this overt ..' . " .(quite a four.) . ,v . . . * .. ' Are you agreed that we may skip the introduction which is Iteat.''* ' .v.-- v . ; *.; . Is there any objection ta_fihat?--(-Hone)------ --------------- -- 1 How,.-what we would Ilka above an eloa la to turn out ' coaathing infornativc; but we do not want to -turn out an .-< v.~ /. .y.`' encyclopedia, but X soy again that we do- want all of the *.r ^ '* ... . things that you now know are canning aceidsnts in shipyards ? : . *v. .* ** 4 : *. .r-.**/ . ; ;_ta be included- la the sot of* minimum, standards-that will -.** f ' ^ * . :, r"_* ' - - ;* . * ' ."control accidents'.*. And if .`.there is anything left out,, pleas lot us'know about It, or if there is anything included in ; here that you t.hink should not be included, please bring t ," that out, ; ' ; . ' " j ' . How, you trill'remember that ve had this previewed, and prediscussed by a committee of 13 men from shipyards al\_oTer ` . - .' 'l the nation. ` ". ' ! . . The first paragraph is Ho. 2, managements part. . **2. Uanageaent Part. ' .2*1 It is absolutely essential, if a successful acci- j dent' prevention program is to be Installed and operated, . . . i 1 that top plant management take an active and interested part' , .j .in the work* The same supervision given any other important . ' V'*. .* I activity in the shipyard shall be given the safety urogram. ' _. * .J ' -2*2 The responsibility of management in so far as j industrial safety is concerned shall be considered to in- *** ''%. ^ * . . ~ \ ' %m * .* * * * * 'elude:. . /' :. j ] v (2*21) The provision of a reasonably safe working en vironment* ' ' . . --; 3';- Training of employee* fnr aa.f ety. ^, ^'.-'W;-(2*23) .;.Satabliahaent of. ait accident record and report-: - ing system*. *. __ .. - -.C `,, ** * *-r***i*'* ' \- '. *` j {2.24} The- appointment;; where necessary, of a safety ; >... .* . ,tw . engineer (or` d safoty director) ' end staff to install, main- i. . # * i *.*r; / -/tain and properly supervise an accident prevention program* . ;: i".' ; - v- ' . ' i *^-'-(2.2S) Tho- issuance of instructions to all division t or department heads, foreaea,' leader or leadingaen or to an; persona ta a supervisory capacity that they are coasidered responsible) for accidents which Involve eaployees working under their direction and that they are required to ccnply with all of the provisions of the accident prevention progra in effect in the shipyard. ' . * Ve will go right through that section, and we will cone '* * . hack to it and ask for a discussion. ,* ' * . > . ' (2.26) An active and interested participation in eafsty .' through ' ' * /* .* . ` 1 | * (a)- Eeviaw of* and executive action on, safety records. ' " ' i (h) . Frequent attendance at safety"neetingsw *\ * *' . '. . . * * "- . ' ' . - ii ' (c) Actacole &gea eat cf good or had departmental safety1 * \ . \ *'**' ' *- , 1 `records through personal interviews with departsent heads. : ' .. I General letters,- Tor hulletin hoard posting, .. \ 'addressed to eaployees and discussions of good or poor yard--:. " *. . ... *\ ;i accident records ` r- = ~ v-. '' | .-V* :A. ' . '* ; -1 (e)''.By'setting a good example. (Goggles, safety shoes,,' hard nthw-i* :`:`;`usd hy any. exscutivo tho exposes hinsalf to yard operations. Sow, say I.have.any consents on that section, please? *.'-Z3.o.- n- ofvh- esitate, pica ao, to. go.t up. If yon t.hink it should * r\\ ;;'..... ; contain hcro-er chsruld contain less, please let ae know. . ` - v - -* * . .i"--'-1' Eli*,'''hits EA23r Claiser Cospany, Xacoip orated, Bichnand if Shipyard. Ho'5, Eichaond', Califernia): ` Under- Section 1^3, i . i- gays, "In all eases the use of the words r aha11 * or 'suet jj indicates that that conpllancs with that section of the nlni! Bran requirements la mandatory." Shy wouldn't it he a good jj exanple tinder 2.26, Section A, Instead of saying "necessary. ' protectire equipaent should he used", say "protective equip- 1 neat shall he used*? . ' i; CEAIBHAH RCCES: Tou are absolutely rigat* That word ii ` . ? should* should he changed to the word "shall". Are. there any other corrections? , * *, . . HR. HAL FRAZlhd, (Houston Shipbuilding Corporation, j i ! Houston* Texas): Under 2.26-B, why eouldn't there he in stead of "frequent attendance at safety aeetinga* he changed | to read* "That management shall be required to attend"? . CHAIHHAH BOCSS; I agree with you on that, hut we have got to reneaber one thing* -Pe are building, ships, 'and we have yards full of busy executives* That does not mean that .they are excused entirely froa attending safety meetings, . brut on the other hand. It is not necessary for then, to attend ovary safety nesting to demonstrate an active'interest* . >vX atusbla"a.littla 'over the frequency* I iwould lihe ,** ' *" *V**"!<'** \****\^*.'*; *- t' si* * **' _ * ' "* *" * * * '/to say' "regular* rather''than, "frequent* ' _; :* - ' ;* >*'.. " ' '/.'/v n.. ns*. PRiZIER: .. Poll, 1st no put "regular* in thore in . place' cf' "frequent*.- . - CTIAISnAir HOCUS:- '.la that satisfactory?' Arothers any r * ,* ^ conn ants- on .-the uses, of- th- word "regular"' in place of the '1 word frequent*7 . Under 2.25-b? ; . I know, for example, that you could not get Henry Eaiaer -H * '* * ` *` * to attend-many safety meetings, .although he does attend, them when he is around. ... ... . . . 4" * * *. - * . 4* .: '' ... SB. H. R. GHSSHLSEJ {Honaton Shipbuilding Corporation):-! In regard to 2.25-e, X tronder if yon really mean that, Henry Eaiser every tine he walks down in the yard, has to shift * t* into safety shoes* * . ' CEAIRHAU ROCEE: .Ton are darmed right I do* Anybody here think that Henry Xaiser should not do that? ' SR* GEO*RGE 7* SCE*MOEL, (Alabama # Brydock . and\' Shipbu. ilding*. .Company, Mobile, Alabama): In Section E, then is it under- 1 \ '. ."stood that every person working in the yard should wear ' -- ' . .. ._ * | _1 j = `safety shoes, et cetera? I \CE3SS1L& E3CES: Xes, and If it is a case ishere tiiex l! ... . . .r would be exposed to head injuries, they should be protected* : TFer. example* if a- person is working where they are not I exposed to^head injuries, he. does not have to /wear a hard J ' hat, but if that person is froa time to tine in a hazardous ! . _____ .*V'.Haritina 'consultants, and anybody-'else who 'comes in there* !. -v'.vVr.V'- ] .V X 'nearly got'ny brains' knocked out in. one shipyard, because . / .; , * // f--,V . *# lb'3 Ths will cove on to the next item, Seotlon 3, Safety Director * ** # , i and Staff* . '' ' ... ` 3.1 A safety director, (title may be safety engineer, safety Inspector,) et cetera, and staff shall be appointed ii for S' shipyards haring 1,500 employees or more*- (See . .. | saction 3.25 .for duties And responsibilities.') The safety I. * ' !*t director shall report to, and be resp*onsible to the general ij ' manager* . i; . * '. i ... R. R* R. CIA2I, (Pennsylvania Shipyards, Beaumont, h *- . - . Texas): X question as to whether or not the staff function ii should be under general manager* I think a better word would * . m i % .* ** . ' *' be `top management*. In our yards specifically, I do not .. - \' know how it. is" with the rest of the yards, but the general i ' i J; : .1 . . . . . .i -1. manager is principally interested in production.' As a matter . sil of fact, he'is head of--the production department, and as ' such,' X am wondering as to whether or not safety would `.j f 'f `receive frcm/the general manager in his capacity as produc- \ I `tion 'chief,, 'the interest it deserves. ` ' ' ' ' '! t; \ * * ; * ` \* . - ' ' X think safety should be a staff function, msfl any-----------L recommendations cf the safety* department should'come through: 1. ^ top management,.' through -'the liw cf authority to the general ! . * * - mj" ^v a ^ ^ 1,, .t ^ * -j . '-i ** * . t* *| . * w* ''**. . * ` *1 * . *. ^ I! "been made. I believe one of the difficulties that safety has its proper place la production, and especially since the outbreak of the war. I an not citing ay own. company as being the acme of a safety program, ho* it should be run, et cetera, but we have "found by setting the safety department up as a division of the production department, that safety has be come Inseparably wrapped up with production, and.by having .the safety department report directly to the production - department, you have full- compliance and responsibility. : "* CE1I2UAJ7 EOCEE: That is the other side of it. X th*n> i what the argument is hers the definition of your- term *top ; .t 'management*, and the fact that 'general manager* in cna . plant nay not fulfill the functions of a general manager in *' " '' your plant. Bhat we need then is a definition of scat we .'.***'* * _ i ' f "i i ! , nean by "top management*/ or by 'general manager*. Will you : ' i * r . T ** . *: ' *; agree with that7 ' . - " *| / . HE. GABS: X_ believe it ` specifically mentioned, or j ..that he specifically requested, it be connected with produe- ` .. . ' I tinn,. gnd he 'dnrib-did-Bhother-the-safety division uetup~umds~r~ .'`prcdaetlan'would W as essential as it" would outside of pro-- j dnctionX T believe -it is mere effective outside of the pro '' " .*# ' ' 'S, . ,Vt' . ` . `( . 4 *^ ' " daetion department. .. U '- v`v<S2J3IIAS I3C2S: V'V ' ' '. .that is your suggestion, for the change?" -- , * j ?1H yeu.sugge-at a`change?, ' *, .. ^ * I * >, *-- **- . 4 ^wb*-*** ** **.** 1 *'*'*.* *. . v. " i . a . : bS/ dAHT: -:" X dm not- have' any specific, change to mate on -*V `J . .... - \ '' 160 9ha it, other than ay original suggestion., which was "top manage- nent". It was `brought out this morning'without the coopera- * '- ! tion or -top management, -we are not going to do anything with ; the safety program, and to--be--absolutely- frani,- in thinh in . . *' . - . order to properly institute a safety program, we are going to / ;. 1 hare to hare the brass hats in on the thing. . : j In other` words. It is going to hare to come from the . `. top of the heap, and I also seriously question whether or ,, . *. . I I 1 | not the question cane up about the' removal of a hazard, that : would probably slow up production a little bit,'which way ! . . ' . - -. . * ! .-the ^production chief would lean. His interest is principally In production, and I am thoroughly convinced that our praise-- .there should be "top management". I believe if ue use the ' '.**' fc 'i 1 ^ ", * .*."{ ***,, *. . . ,V y * _. * . tars "top'management" that that would be. sufficiently in- ' elusive* ` ' . *' ' HH* SSIDERj. I thlnh that would' still leave it up to ... ,'w. I' ' ` '. *xts to be interpre- ted.'# ' * "* ' .- ' [ ' . itt . *' - CHAIHHAH KOCHS: You mesnby the top management, the- highes '? v.*.t'.CHATRTIAU KOCHS: ATT right," let us say in the Kaiser J r`T a.;'-*?.*. i.' Jf.i' .' . * -.T,-- ' . '/ ; * j ./ Shipbuilding Company that. Hr*. Kaiser lochs upon, safety in j vv.-'';'vr" t ; ''' ! *'hin yaird acr his*fpsponnibility as much a anybody elso's, and . v * r^^V': - ' v` \ i-.he holds all of the-'general managers in his yard equally : * *, r * *. .* :.*.)#* <4 ( lOhs \4 . ` - ' ' 1 responsible, not only for production, bat for safety, too. . I' agree with you /that there should be eoae definition, perhaps, and If yon would be willing to offer one, we would be delighted to hare It. Ho one has orer done that, that I inn. w of* . ....."....... ,' . . . ' *' ` SOU. GREEELSH: thy use the wording, then? . ^ '* CEAIEHA2I EOCESj All 'right, then you giro us a better one. tfe are trying to saha it as good as possible*- / EE* S* T. SIXTH, (Consolidated Steel Corporation, Los Angeles, California): X heartily concur with the first *. < ' .4 * " ` ` I' ` " ' *- ' gentlenan* In our particular plant, we are dealing with tht * . ` 4 * I ` *' " , treasurer and assistant president of the conpany,' and- it is .V a * healthy '" X situation to *' know that you are with the top manag . . neat nore. so than with your production nanageaent, and I wo - say, . tcp nanageaent instead of production*. . CHUESAH BOCES: tould you. agree with tile tera hides' operating" eaecutire*? :/ * a superintendent, ' That .brings. it down in sone eases to *v.. : j V. . * .*. . UHEA*4. aSuHjUtiiSiuH;; .Area*t the conpanies under the Saritine J.'V . _____ ~ CHAIRIIAH EDGES i Tos. . * <i ' r; ' SHXDEEr ^ell*\why weuldn11 they report filreotlpr.t * 4*. : r"f-* * .* VV*l- . *- ^. , '**t. .r. ' ^.* .* . +. .-**V-^. ^,4*___ `V* .* _ .. _ ' '% .. ^ . operative. We want .an Individual tiling* We want it brcu under the eyes at the nan who is responsible for* the prof and loss in the company. Perhaps I should have said the : or the men. .... . .. KJU GRAHAM. (Delta Shipbuilding Company, Hew~Orlearns, . '** Louisiana) : I would suggest that the top management be % comprised of representatives from the^general superintender or whoever has control, or holds the title in charge of pro duction, anil- executive Tic-e-president, or president of the company, as top manageaent, and the safety engineer, ill three are 'interested in production, economy and safety. I -tfalnh that could comprise the top management, very satisfac .* 1 ^ ' v : . * '* . . ._ ** .orily, 'rather than an individual, who is interested in a particular department* " '1 .* ' "" - " * " * . :: CEAIRHAH BO CHS: ' You got a good point,. with one excep- * ***- '*. : .w . * - . . .- tlon," the safety engineers, are employees of the ' shipbuildih *v*;' company,' rather than of the-Maritime Commission. .` HE* GRAEAM: They are charged by Washington with.the * - * i -***,*.** . - ' responsibility far safety in the yarL, in trhl rh --the-v-onerat-e tlwrT; . .&*:: * V =. * ` ` -* \ .............. ' CETAXaHAIT BOCHE: ' Xos, the resident plarir engineer* v T%: * - ` SR*':SHAEAUr; Too,, the' resident 'plant engineers are changefar the safaty in the-.yards* : '*- : . .' m. * . * i' * ` *.* . * ,/% ' ... , .* - `A v * ' . nR.^ GHSSBLSEr,- - He: is an om-officlo member of the exscu t ' *b ^ 7J. *< ,--V . .. ^ 4. * * % * , . # . * tlve safety,, committee. by Maritime Comnis sion- or der. * 11 HR* GEORGE 7, SCEHOEL: Speaking of resident plant engineers, I tAke It that you scan Maritime engineers? Tfcat 1 about the Navy? *' - - CE1IHMAS ROCES: In the HaYy, the sane thing would hold * . 4* * true* I do not know, frankly," exactly on that, but I can in- quire* Do >e haTe a resident engineer in the Nary Yard? COMMANDER CARLSON: Each engineer In tha Navy Yard, operates directly under the management. '. : HR. ClARY: On thin top management thing, the gentleman ' ' i back here from the Dolta Shipbuilding Company, New Orleans, . spoke about a certain procedure that should be'`followed. i : i* .* * .That Is the line of authority from top management. Hy con- ' \ * . . * * . *' ' . .*.* , 7 eeption of top management includes all,of the corporate ' officers, and- these staff, offleers performing the funttion ; of management./ and how'thia: safety department gets tip to the' top management should be left to the individual shipyard, * * * * , * . * *- .**.* * . * to erhataver operating practice would be most suitable for - .. ` that particular- yard* ' ' ' '' ;-i ^ ? i ; :.a ,C5TAlR2iAir B3CES; . How, heennn s' we-are-nreca-edr-fur *v* <%, fcaau itr 'da .getting late, and this is your set of standards I .`..-and so-'trecibi get? a definition that: will be satisfactory to . * . * *** j.'. 7' tha- grsup- bn"this,, ue will -appoint a coamittae to go into j u;. that' batter*-^!*1 act''going, to appoint Hr* Clark, hr. Snider, : \ t .['had th'q, gentleman.' from Houston :te forsulate a definition tha u-"". v~ .. - . **. .... ' fit under' paragraph `3ii, and*-report on: that at this 4 16aeetins tomorrow corning. Ur. Clark will be chairman of that committee. ^. * ' ... . UR. DESJAEDIH2S, (flavy Departsent, ffashington, D. C.) : I Sky not use the highest..ranking executive? .j ` *i . . CEfllEHAH EOCHE: I Till ask the committee to take that' . * . J under advisement. I will drop that matter nor, and continue . ' tl with the balance cf the material. . j . By the way, I meant to put on that committee Ur. Graham i instead of the gentleman from Houston, and I am going to add . Dare Kaye. .` *` . I . * ^_ ! . 3.2 The staff in the safety department in addition to the safety director, * shall consist of: * "; \* . -.;*'** . ** . *. ` j 3.21 An assistant safety director in yards haring 5,000 . employees or sore* . ` . If :' ... .'3*22 One safety engineer (safety inspector) ** * * * " ` ` ` additional 3,000 employees. * , **,.' '* , *.' for each . \* ! \ .-VSxanple : It a yard has 35,000 employees'there would be r* - v* * * * * * * 1 required a safety director and an assistant plus 10 safety : . inspectorsV _______ _L-----' "" ^ ^7_" *. . %* *V* ? '3*' 2v-3r.'A* - T,h *e-.s.*ta.*ff .o*. f** engines ere ` shal. l be ' distributed over ttie three shifts. In proportion to the number of employees os - * V- i * * +* * ** - ; \'* ^ 1 t *.*h. * %*- ** * .. each: ch-lft* ; ' . * . * '* * * , *. ' 3*24 One- clerk, and/or stenographor for tho first 5,000! .'-employees and one' dark for each additional 7,500 employees... | ' CXt is-.-aot.'to be'.assumed that the time of safety inspectors 14hs ( . . . * . 165 or the safety directors can toe spent on clinical detail.) ' All office functions, while adequately supervised toy the `safety director, should toe oarrled on toy cl?rha so the great est possible amount of tine of the safety director and his ! staff say toe spent in the shipyard- . HR* GRAHAM: I thinh it is entirely inadequate." The j Ltar.*av Hational Safety Council offers the toroadest experience of ' K any organization which we hnow, and they have the only real . z i experience to offer, and they never suggest that there toe as; ' . many as one man trying to handle 3,000* It is a job almost * ' ' ' . impossible. We are doing, a war ^oto with production as the * *. * i i II j i | .paramount is sue,' and the management is not going to toe able I \ * ` | ' 'to- give us the time necessary to follow through with the 1 . - L ! educational worh-tre need. Therefore, I thinh that we should! toe suggesting one man-to a thousand as & minimum. . C3AX2HAH E0CE3: I would lihe to hear some mere discus-^! sion on that* *' . HRw E. E. PACESRD: (Los Angeles Shipbuilding and Dry- doch Corporation) Something liha that would create a terrific effect upon us, and would werh a considerable hard^* ship n a lot of us.' For sample, if' we have-8*000 men, that *. . ** ** * .* h - - ' * * I . . ..* .' * * ; * . will' only giro, us two men* Ha- will say we hare 8,000 men divided up into three shifts, and so how can-you put two.men r-'- ` * V " in.- throe shift at r. CE.AIHHAI? BOCEE: The answer is *ah least* ;.* 'Ecu have- got o *. *,..** 1 f i-aa ( . .. .166 to be logical about it. If you have got three shifts, you need three Ben. .* ' . * HE* PACKARD: I do not thihk we should have anything llie that, because in aost of then they hare been staffed 'for sons tine* I know that I hare nore aen than that, and , sous of these ecoaouical heads of departments are apt'to get the idea that .we havA got too aany, and are going to get i i anhitious, and ash us to cat down our staff. I had to fight : rery hard to get ay aen to the present level, and 1 would not rant to lose'then at this tine. . \ . C* EA2BHA5 ROCHR: ; B* hat is your reoosaeadati\on? * j\ ' . `i SR. PACKARD: X thinh thait It should be one nan to. 2500,; N . . or one nan to 1500. * *. `' . - CEAIRHAN BOCHS: Those figures are the .consensus of the ! group aeeting tre'had here -in: Chicago, and they are their ' . .. \. ** t . . .* figures. . ' ' - HR.-BAH T.-22UH, (Consolidatod Steel Corporation, Los ..* - '*.'.*,** . Angeles, California): .Again,' that inposes a penalty on us.. who have- a 'functioning' organization 'that has naybe one nan ; .* ;.R L; T 1 -i.* r*-- ' -i to a thousand,' and^X. would. say, *At least-one safety engineer ' ' l.yrj vr};:~'sy: V.W-v.'----1 to 1,000 hen.* V'...: _ . ,< * ' /, * -).JU V-**-4:-**-".''' : . ' * - " . *. i1' *\ Vt. ? j T .;** * * . *- . .CHAI22AS-.roGZSr. PXdaaa.understand' that this is & nni- - * ' '*' :.. . _;. - . - . * . ' - V ; I X eaphnsinci that"ffsrreraX tinea, that these are.nini>. j I.... .-r. nun standards, 'and na'thing wehaTer alX got to realise is j .* .*'t* 'y- * **vv-'V` V-. . ' ` .` | - this: That it - in alX* right .tor want * 2S;- or 30'. saf ety engine era. xjz.12 business of increasing perhaps sa j. supervision. TTould yon a till hold that flew with th M' jj Bind? * : s. . . * : jj ' HE* ZSHDALL: .Tea, I think so. H `* - |! ' * * | ; . CEAIBJIA.S HOCES: ^ tfhat would ha your suggestion? XR. XEEMLL; I would say about 1500* . . . CHAIPJIAN ROCHZ: One to 1500, That seems to be th sensus 'of the group, .' %* - !i JR* KiLLTER * COHLQH, (St, John.** RlTer Shipbuilding jj; Company, Jacksonville, Florida): Ths thing that pursles : * ." jj Is the clarification of the purpose of this booklet, . It s . . ** * it that there Is a difference of opinion as to the purpose of ' I ' ' jj this booh, la this to .be a set of standards that tre adopt. 1. or la this merely to be a guide to possibly refer to at intervale,-'or la nanagaaent going to. adopt this? *- - ' ' l- .. :* CEAXEH&3 EOCHS: ; This Is a. set of standards to be adopte i,, &s & nlalaua, . \1 j \! I , HR*" C03LOS: , -- ' By..the safety departaant? .. eH CHATBT1A.E BQCHS: By each shipyard, by management, and .* |-:..the safety department as 'a ain,inrun requirement, reP- vhS';-.Iln.es only ainisua'requir^entas: *** * 3xiaa-tf-^S^IiPr -X think that thsr 5,000 is & littlcr hl^i. ; ' ^V- j,GZAXRIMt RDCES: X'nan wondering why-- nobody thougit of . ; vV4> -* * * Bhs that. ... . 16 ' .HR. PACZAED: If you were going to-put in a starting figure of 5,000 sen, you can use two shifts, and if 70U hare a safety director and one assistant, that will be tough. I /* * 4 r thisfc we should cut that down to at least 3,000, and if not 3,000, to possibly 2500. 1 on nore inclined to 2500. ' CEiIRHAN E0CB3: Well, would you say this: Change that ** t figure to 3,000,_and then under paragraph 3-21, have it read this -way: , * . .`. t^ . ' ' 4 " *An assistant safety director in yards having 3,000 employees or acre, except that there ghAVj always be at least one safety engineer per shift Is that all right? *-"... SR. PAC2AB3: Xes. / ` ^ .` ` . _ _ .CE&.IE2IA5 BCCHE: _ la that satisfactory that we adopt the figuro_cf^3,CCO fcr ths_ initial, and 1500 for the final? ...--SB* SIUBOTf:' Are we talking now about shipbuilding, or what?_ .If you change that to safety engineer on each shift, you night? have alittle difficulty with a snail Job of only ... .t. ... s ^ ..` . . . ;. * , . . . * i. ten: or fifteen sea. . . *. * .;gSAjERHAS EOCHS: . trell, you hare got' tc be.ll<ogical and #**..-. *!",*' -** v.-fV./vh'*' -.i' *` S'.." v . '. . . * `. ...-**.*- * " * --n>iT o eVusrrfc ' ' * * - I r1 "-:t11 \5 ' the yard, and you' night have non of then in tha actual ; - V : ? .T v ... . !. . "* 7.' * . - ( 19hs i 170 tile foremen and the leadsmen take an active part. Under th production conditions which we are operating today, the lore- *s p ii rt nan does-not play that part, and for one nan to have to do i the selling Job and the-educational wort 'for fifteen, hundred, \ X repeat that that is. almost an impossibility. 5 lJ CHAX2SH3 EDGES: I agree with you that under the,present l setup, and the present operating methods in some of the yards Hl'Il, but where a determined effort has been made to secure the t cooperation of foremen, and where recommendations such as sire i ' t submitted here, and such as Jach Uolff has talied about are made, and carried but, -ere do get the cooperation of foremen t vary definitely, and there are several such yards that are K only getting that* ' ' EE. GS1E1H: X thini if this would be a mandatory standard by which we are to operate, it would get a'better s chance cf success. *' " \ tiI \ '' CEA.XHMAE BOCE2: Xt might almost be considered that. * ' * * .l .Sow,' that has been changed from the 3,000 in the' initial,! ! to. 1500 fear the additional employees, and X will change that ; enasple later cn*_ v , . >* how about 3.2-4? One of `the "troubles we frequently : find in. yards in that the''safety engineer does all of him own clerical'worh*_ In fact, sons of`them stay there nights . my; -".v- ^; 'to do, it. Xa that/catinfhctory?' Xf so,'we will continue. ' ; -X ; .Cr V '.'.O'- ~ ' . ; .. . .; ``'HRi- 2*'J. BEEIAHX (Xravelara Insurance Company, Hart- ' 20hs ford, Connecticut): In paragraph 3.1, I mould suggest that you put a provision in there- that this applies to yards hav- 1 _ , leg 1500 employees or acre. There are many yards throughout the country on snail ship construction that do not quite rea that figure. Why should not these provisions apply to the smaller yards under 1500? -* -_ ` CEiZBHAB' EOCEE: Xou tell me. Does anybody agree vith that, that yard^having less than 1500 employees need a eafet engineer, or can tho personnel director tahe care of that? (Cries of, *5o*.) . t . ^ What Is the lour figure? , . . EE* GEAEill: Five hundred. t .. 4 . *. % ' . ..HE* ESSJAEDI3ES: 1 thlnh that is rather lop. _ ; GHAZEHAE EDGES: I thlnh so, too. ' ' . . '* ;* HE* SEEDAXLj. X do not inom hotr you can get any figure .caa thing lii.e that at all. Bach in tho days before Pearl Earher, and before .the mar, me .had a number of repair yards T that .did not have a thousand employees* Some days it -could i; oparate -tro hundred, and then a ship mould come in, and me . !. /*? mould Jtssp-froa.ttTo hundred to trnelTo hundred oror-night. `:vl C .V,7J^-Ec_haye a oafsty engineer in'every yard. . . . . '''-v-a . CEiXE3iS'_EDGESt ' X. agree mm; lth you*_ . ' ... +' ' i'* * . *. ' *"* * ** * .* * ' * * CHdXEEAE'. EOCEE:v .Hell,.- shall mo say then-that the safet director and star? shall he appointed for all shipyards? Is that agreed, regardless of the nuaber of employees? | . HR* J0E3S0H; _ (Zaiaer Conpaay, Portland, Oregon): I wcult like to see in that same paragraph some prorision for a wage scale for inspectors,' or whatever yon call then. I near. . \ literally that, I hare heard eo many tiaea from people all i over the country that they cannot get,or they cannot heep ' . * * ` ' i competent inspectors, because they are not allowed to pay then an adequate wage* they are paying thera a helpless wage, and' they expect than to contact foresee, and supervisors and I do : * * *' i not think that that is right, I think it should be in there ; that an Inspector gets not loss than a Journeyman1 swage. * . l ` * * *. . . i i * 1 CElIEiiH BCCEE: I trill show you sone of the scare where ji i the stitches`have not been pulled out yet, because I brought ; I . .that aattor up* 'That is a natter for the laber relations : j 'I * division, * as ' such, and not tho safety division, and it is '--j . being`taken care of.'*'' ` '| : '- ' .-V .' j :'4` .*\ * HE, JOHHSOS: ell, tho atabilinatlcn board said, why 1 .. . * *4 .* i 'hot'put it-in. there* and then they will have sonething to___!_ .''back'then, %r` I J . *,* ^v * *.. **1**? ' *'*v*/.,'.v.*. ., '*.*!'** ** ,, *_**** * .! *'* CSMEHil* 2SGE2:' '1 sa'afraid that`we cannot, get away li-V; r'f" '"v' ;; V:-- -w .. j -'.'\witJs that,/ but; it 'ih boing'taken-caro of,.' and you can count j ah thati. :`itknow1 that whore you get a good san who cakes a j* A . V.* '. . * . good-, inspected,and' you'pay- him 40 a week, maybe, and the t : ' first" thins' you know ha In* out welding*. and making more uonay, g ;>.-* v *_ ..*' v ' . .\ ] and getting in overtime, and lots of fellows hare been list I that tot', and some of 'these fellows are making iees than $40 II a we eh. ' * i .. ; '' * . ' .* -So/ there is aoae_ need for stabilisation there, and i ; treating these sen and these Inspectors should he treated ' in a different manner, and I agree with you, but I do net ^ .* . thirds it is part of the safety standards to set the wage' i ; ' ! scale., because we would have zone agreements, and everything ' ** . else,to take care of* and you know That that is. t> . \ i ** * _ , HH J. H. EiXi-OH-, (ho ore Drydock Company, Oakland, \ { "' ; - . . `| jj California) : On. 3.1, safety director, about the number of ; s' . ' ' ! employees, et. cetera, X think there should be something in ! l * - '. . - .j j _ there to cover that I hare in mind. I happen to know of one yard whore the safety director was the fire chief, the first-' ! j aid. man,1 and captain, of the gourds. . in this particular case j : I know' he was all three, and I. think his duty should be safety dire ctorj-'-and' nothing else.' ` . '*' . | i! - .' CSiJP.tAn BOCHil: Tou will .find that clearly* outlined jsiad.gr 3.25> Tv Vt.- V ' --...------,---------- --------------- lVvT^iv.hS.r SChilOSLr.-X.think an inspector should have some . '5-..electrical.and'cthar; experience before .he ia trained as an --L inTs* p. iJe>;ctosr. r..Xa se'.Ta.'.t*....'.c..a..sJ...e..3r* w. e-have ,to .>.tr. ai:n ..o..ou.urr' inspectors; iT .'and' X'.bellsvw:that -you cannot* gat,.an. average nan in that ' ' ; - \ ' T- 'r-f-x wv.**`* "'y--'*-- * -v , ' '* . * ;: JJ. category, who*.doea not'run- around 01*23-an hour. and. X thlr.br , 7*b .* ,, ; -*i :.-yoro puttin'Shore- that the requirements for the. inspector' j  174 Mxb is to be so and so, that wo will be able to control the rage scale In .that*way without setting it. * __ / - CEUEkAH ROCHE: Ton have got a very go-od point there. Wo have considered that, but in the interest of keeping this thing froa getting too bulky, it was left out. The consult an % * r will assist in discovering these nen in each case, and train ing the aen whoa you are going to use as inspectors in the yard, and give you a hand in'that way. That is going to be done cons where along the line in the training pro gran, but 6 is going to be done specifically for shipyards. HE* SHISER: In regard to 3.1, you say a safety director / ** et cetera, and shall be"appointed for all shipyards having . * ,* * 1500 employees er nora I- See Section 3.25 for duties and IT ' r, esponsibili ties*' '. The s,afety director, shall report to and - t t. -* . .*;*"*'* _ * i- ...** *'. - * \ bev responsible: to the general nanager.* ' " v -vy'-V'^ Suppose the function of the safety organization were a. ' 'safety director frcu 'the 'parent conpany, will that' change "'the status'of'that any? .. ,v . - > - ' GHAXE2IA2T ROCHE; Tea, you. report to the general manager .----c.-r- of hn yard,` and to', his- ' In ether words, anything that is | ''batter than `what-wu haver'here,' we' arc not'' kicking about, bu ."] ''It auat'bot-"at' least thisl:5`' i'J. '*' . V -1-Viojr'' rvhsirt'J Ve' wdTLput that jin there. a and I will catch that la the minutes. i .. . - . How, we will continue with 3.25, duties and respon- ,p aibilities. . . " . . ..... ' 3.25 Duties and responsibilities. The duties and I responsibilities of the safety director shall include: .. (a) Conp&ete responsibility for formulating. adsiniate i !i ' j ing and ashing necessary changes in the ehlpyard accident j prevention pro gran within the Units of authority granted by i . j the shipyard management. The safety director shall also be [ ** ' ' | required, to correlate the shipyard accident prevention progr ! with the minimum standards of the U. S* Maritime Coaaission. i `* .' H ** ./ *t .* ; . Any objection to that? . ' ' 'N(He response.} . * * }. * * . ... \ ' ' - -V Ck) ' Subaisdon of regular aonthly, weekly or daily reports on the status of safety directly to the general ' .* * * ' .. * manager of" the shipyard* .... ' . *v .. May I say right there,''that`that 'general manager8 tern Trill be put in agreement with whatever our committee decides 1 * ,. , . .for. that teimu .' . . '. Acting in an advisory capacity on. all matters per ' taining to ' safety 'and health, (sec paragraph *?' following) * .tho management, general manager, superintendents, foremen, 8 r.quartarmen,.' leadsman*. 'purchasing 'department, engineering * dapartaont,."conaiasary department, cr contractor .1 ' JOESSODr.. - X qua ation-/the help proposition* . . . . 4 175 . CEAJKiiN BOOHE; Host cf the yards da act have hygierj.ce and somebody has to take care cf that. ' r HE. JOEHSCW: they asked us what medical school we graduated fros In our yard. _. CSAIE5LA.H ROCEE: What te want- Is that they will a ah fcr .your assistance. Tor example, I hare area into the same condi tion is, other yards, and hare found that the medical depart ment never Bakes trips through the yard, and they do not knew *% chat the term is that ia used in the yard, and they do not kaoim shether it is toxic cr not. Well, the safety engineers . can bring that to their attention, and get some, action in ; that way, . * - ; - . 2hs safety engineer say;not dodge the responsibility " for his post, in the health and hygiene program in the yard. : ' 2hat is. definitely a part of hia Job, * ' ; .. *j . * * *' * .* . *i . (d) Maintenance of the accident record system. Baking - ! *-.all necessary .reports, `personal investigation of all' fatal . . : '` . |! or serious accidents,, investigation through Me staff of i ` accidents, - securing supervisors accident reports, checking j':* corrective action taken by*, snipervisors to elininata accident ^ * .% * causes* . . . * *. *. tv . i '* .\** -* .#' \ * *' ' -:' ; ** - ' . ,* ** ; v:. - * . C-:':'-'; '.And., yon. .can Interpolate-thare- * through his staff eher-ve *: posalblfl,*-.^ We kaorer that thn safety. engineers have only 24 V, heura a day, Just like anybody else,.* * * v'/'-j'- : * "*' ..v" ** *7*'v y.}' - ' Supervising^* or.elosaiy" cooperating uith.the train- '***.i * ,*v*'***'l*. *'*.*?* 1, ** , ..-- * *m -- : * * ^ **>..'**y.* . - * '**,.* * .* v \ \ ,% . :;* 2 hs lag supervisor, the safety training of ,. / Section 3.2S). . 1 employees. (See j ^ ' (f) Correlating safety work with medical (first aid) k< . ** ' ji*; department to Insure proper selection and placement of em i * * 'l ployees according to physique, experience and intelligence' E *. i and for the purpose of securing or giving information-that t ... ; trill tend to control existing or potential accident causes. *!i!s . 2 hnow one yar.d whore ' the safety engineer does all of the'hiring and he does first aid worh, too. * The last f -* , ' " he did was. to tahe the general manager.to the opera the night '{ he had' to wori. X am telling you we are outlining your i* duties specifically, and anything extra gets -extra compensa i: tion* ' ' : - ; ` * . _ ' ** * . ' *' * |- '.-(s) .Mating personal inopectlono and supervising * >! inspections by staff end by special employee committees. ^` '* ' *. .. ' . for-the purpose of discovering and correcting unsafe condii tiona or xuasafe worh practices bpfore they cause accidents. ii .. ' - ' . (h) - *- ..... . . . Exchanging'information, with other shipyards on beat sifety methods and'consulting with' U. S. Haritime Commission _-oxr 'oafarty problems-which/ cannot "be solved with methods: cr f il : i-nform .a. tion. at ha nd.*':V-*> v :rV^>.' v-',..'... *. ' * ' -l vV--(i). 'gating certain that ail federal, state or local ' ........ ; I ;* V- r.-. . "l.-- -' .v crdinn.noea cr orders bearing on industrial safety arc ` ': -r- 'J `IT*--'' eotsliodZ-wish.:^ * - ' > 'v- V:: - -v . " . : i.-'z. E -{,Jl\/.?exnrria^'any-necessary help cr. advice frem state- ' department of labor representatives on matters pertaining to safety.- " '; . . . ' And we better put in there "and health*. -IQ. E. E. HHJTE (Sun Shipbuilding Company, Chester, Pennsylvania): In paragraph (h), * consulting 'with the U. S. *` . * ' . * Earltise Commission on safety problems which cannot be ' ** 'solved with methods or information at hand*, don't you think * * t*hat a s'taff safety director goes beyond the bounds if he " consults with "the Haritine Commission if theyaatter should . ' . 'i have been taken up with his own management, instead of the i v Ear itine Commission? . .. .... #* * . ' . * i .. ! * 'i ,, CKAIRHAB KOCHS: Khat I should have exalalned is that you - .. . ' Will hare a'.regioaa:! `safety consultant in this area for that purpose* v ' .t ?" `' EEIS2:/ Hot-with the plant engineer, or any Haritine ; * *- * .'-*..*.*.** -. ' Commission? . .. ` > . ** ` ' M. ' ' y* i> * . * . ' f .. : , I j ; . .."CEAIR2AH HCCH3: - Eo, 'with the regional safety representa tive, "that means*' .Tould you'rather have it put in there that way? - hr '________ . ! . - \/'>>v--*. . v*. > ?*;'*? ;?> 1.. v, . . jiiUii;.How,. on .(i)-.does.'anyone'object' to the words "safety -'sT-' Vif'V,.V<-r*'>.'V>vii.iVJ v>- y. - health*,. because,.yon say. have- occasion to- contact your- health department I' HR.' JOHHSQH: It says under (f) yon say, "oroper eelec- | tlon and placement of employees according to physique, t '' ' . * jj esperience, and intelligence, and for the purpose of securir. ! '' , ' `' ( or giving information' that will tend to control existing or i. , i. ; potential accident causes.* From a labor standpoint, I woul j' ' I* liie to add there, *ezcept in Instances where a local union u l , supplies the man.* L` ` * * . ` jj . CSA.IB2IAE BOCHE: That is going to be tahen care of, we | hope. There is* a conference going on now with the A. F. of I 1 ` ' '' |! and the C. X* 0*y and other unions, if there be any, and the 4 - ._ management representatives, which tend to smooth out that . point, and I "thirh we trill have & lot less trouble with that for which every one of us is thanhful* ' ' ' -Than,'' If there is no objection,, we will add the word ' health* in paragraph (J)., *' . ' .. (h) '..-.'Initiating activities that trill stimulate and maintain 'the 'interest of employees 'in 'safdty. ' '' ' --' Acting as seei*g!ary of all safety committees and is.such.capacity;he `shall prepare an agenda for each such meeting eoveriag-jt!n.'Tra.aia3ffs to' ba discussed and, he shall prepare for Iha record^. minutes of .each" such aeoting. . na^.'gaXBSEt . That'in impractical In many shipyards, " . .v .. V - - ` -"J.: .* - . .. ' . occurding: to your committee- setup, 'and' according to the number .ef. hours in sc dayv / ' ' CEA.EHLA.H EDGES: That la the safety director, and ycu 'interpolate there through his staff. * Obviously, you coul not he there 24 hours-a day. Tou can put in- "and/or* IT ii * * *, \ you want, hut any of'these activities, the safety director i .. . as such, is the administrator, 'and he mahes it clich. I do not care if he ever goes to a safety meeting, if`hs gets a I! j; .good safety record in his yard, hut he will go to then, I trow, or he will not get that. . ' HR. PACIAES: .1 hnoor ny particular yard has used this ii - .` ** \ , original program that cane'through with the inspection, nor tw, , ''.****' jj . or less as a Bible, and ire are going to hare to he careful there in otcr wording, because inasmuch as nost people hnosr jj '* nothing about safety, and they have- steered around it as | such'as possible, now 'they have cose 'face to' faee with it, 's .and they have' to do something about -it, and they are very | / apt -to- go by. the lino. '' . - : '.V eHATRUAE EDGES:' Well,'.let us go on with our next part ' (n) ' Directing the activities of his staff including the assistant'shfaty director,/ so .that the shipyard acciden p;.. prevention 'program will W' efficiently "operated.." It is-'. * `y expected that' tha-'safety director nay " delegate certain " - ..-..'aJ.. -T- -3 i *** V , - .* .: - .; ........- . . . .-y-'.lp .responsibilities'.to his 'staff engineers-* such as that of *, t-v __ ;' ;h V W..: K'- acting aa socrotary of oortaln of`the- safety coanittaea. 1 .* It ' '?*,-v/.* * * S .V. . . \! ..* *' -,.j.- *-.'O**' **1 * /rj /- Pornisaiou for-sa'ch'delegation'of ` " ' authority is . - 4 : _ expressly ~ ... '. isi i given la the interest of effloioaoy and Tor training the safety staff* , .* 1 ^ (n) Submission of the required reports on the status ' of safety la' tho shipyard to the IT, S* Haritime 'Commission . at the tide and intervals hereinafter requested. 3*23 .The duties of the assistant safety director, the staff engineers and elerhs, shall be as delegated by the safety director* ' . . ." * . . \ i - In. other worda, ho is boas of the safety department* [ - ` . " i ' How, tre trill coco, to So*.4, accident prevention feres .' r' ' . ** *. - ` ** .and reports* . *. . I i l > ^ . HR* 3EHLS2T: fou made a point about full-tine staff . diroeter a for. employees hore in connection with this, and ; ; so clon^t you thinh that that should be brought In there some = place?" tie may get a haphazard'setup soae place within tho ! law* '''CSAIB2A2 RCCES; Don*t .cay law*. g is not a law* If ire are going to- say we should have a safety director in every shipyard^and-act. say tho Basber-of--employees,--X-ds--not-dhlnh. 7. v- : .~S-> . V--.-- .*,* * I i'we can cayffa`fall-tins, safety director^, because-whore you ! >.' - ` . - _havo. only two- or thro hundred,. or. fire hundred men, and we . i -. " !'>. -/-V..- .. [ '.hnyu'^|x. lot`.ccf yarda.liha do- not thinls. yyootu can expect 000 and . - il ' ' CHAlEhA.2 ROCHE: How do some of you men- from the ship yards foal about that? .* . . ^, ' HR* PAC2AJRD: I 'like it the tray it is* " ' " `..HR. GRAEAH; The safety director's vork is a full-time * , . , ,f Job la any Banner, regardless of the sire of the yard Fr il CEAX3HAH RGCES: X agree with you, tat they do not all , ' * devote full-tine to it* Xou take the several yards out here, tsho are building small craft and have maybe 200 men, they ' * do not have a full-time safety engineer, and I would not * 8 reconmend a full-time safety'engineer for a plant that size, 9H * . * **v * . 6 because they cannot support then. ' . . ' \ hr, GRAEA2: X do not agree with you, because they can v\ ' .' . .. , * . . support then if they have one death' in ten years. ' ..-*>**V CEAIRHAB RCCEE:^ tfe hare gat to be practical about -this . TbT begin with, `we, have not enough safety engineers'"to7 go '' ' around right' now, and have the big Job of training them, ...rad those of you who have been trying''to hire them will 'know .-vy..... : .. ... .. '. . . .-...that* - Lot ua keep that point in nind,' however, for tomorrow ^ and put' into- use at. least the following forms and reccrdar r Suporvlaor'o roport cf accident. ' * " 321i3 < r t -' * % 18B ' (a) Giving all vital data on case plus statements as to unsafe act and/or unsafe condition, reason unsafe act cr condition wa permitted to exist or occur and the inaediate corrective action taken or reeosnended. (Sample attached.) ii n Let na say this:' Host yards have such foras, and they `j HtPA '' ! will not be changed if they are any good at all, but this : fc is a suggested fora, and already I have had several suggested ` i corrections for it*- ` ; . HR. GRAEAH: Kkat supervisors do you uean? '. " .* ' . CHATRUAB -J50CES: The isaediata supervisors. ' Ehat we ; t ! ` j would call in tho manufacturing industry a foreman rs report c' accident, but we do not do that in shipyards, because you know *' ' ' ! the difference in terminology;- Tou don*t dare say even -: * . ** . ' i * . . * ** `i .-leadiagaaa** because that neans- a different thing in diffsrer ' ' V. ' ,' ' . ;. . i sections' of-the. country, as X found out,' to ny sorrow. ' - * * _. * *--* * _ ** " . * :` ,* . - _ Hotr, take a good look at that fora, and if any of you ! j I #` `` ' ' *1 have anything on it* trill you see ne after a while, and we ! trill go at-it again? '' ' /-i /';>*../* . .' ` 1 -s ' . * ', . / *t " ` "* .* 4*22.. .Safety Engineers1 recommendation, fora. * '. .| t .t \ a (a)-.:-.;V?bTa: used.hy safety staff to record recarsaendations naangSr-,. or- other designated. onoctrti'7ca._one to safety depart--*' ** ***: %;.*? *, - . . ... *. * '* .. , . * * ?vV'- .** I*-*..,` . . I sent files after use to check performance. _ (Sample to- be . ; \z~.r . -* #** * *..*. -.* * * r* ;* * . > l' 33hs ( ( ." 184 So aany tiaes those forms are issued to a Ban on the : i Job, and they are never collsoted. Ton trill notice down at the botton of this fora, the specifications-provide apprcxi- * * i r . aately three by five, and you can have then made up in pads. A. lot of yards have then, and this is about the consensus of '. . the forms that I saw, and if there is anything ' lihe that, i ' - they trill not be changed in your yard, but i*f you do not have thea, we will ash you to put then in* . * *i : . 4.13. U* S*. Earitine Cosalssion reports* . ' . * * i t .. (n) To be submitted monthly to TJ. S* Havy -- Earitine ` +' 'x ** * iti Connie sion. To include over-all breakdown of predominant ' accidents, types add cauaos, accident frequency and severity ( \' . * '* ' " ` rates. Total zmnber fatal cases, total of lost tine cases .. " . ' ' ' i and the tine lost, total all eases including first aid and ' number retreataents* "Also to be shown are cumulative * 4` '. lI * frequency and severity rates January 1 to date and changes r j 'in frequency and severity rates fron preceding month.' A ` brief statement of what ia being done to control each of the : ". p'redon^^attt nV^aflTrf: 'i --Thin--fo-ra-to-be ui^edr-al-so--for------ report to nanagtsest'.or.shipyard, *Tq be submitted in trip- llcate so aa'.to reach E. Sr_.Havy-2aritis Commission not later than 15th or aonth following aonth record: covers. . . -- ' . ^ * *. . * (Sampler attached*),.' . : ~ ' V-fr , ' i?o here, got a new. form'for the? C. S'. Earttino Ccnaission *. V- ** > i . r:. <y . ..r.: ---* - . ... ,- . * , .- * . . 7-lt ia.a combination form to dft.ss double Job,, with a copy to (' ,4ha ( s3c ' '. - . ' IS5 go to the labor statistics, and a copy to the Jlaritine Coamis- ^4 * . t4 4 ! aiort, and a-copy for your own use. You trill notice on the ' reverse aide of the fora thich I trill'cotsr first, because that is ny part of it, ere hare departed from the scientific approach, so I have been told, for the prevention of acci- . dent a, ` *- . * " is : - . In other trords, uh&t is desired/that we want to know the' {j cause of the accidant,'and that is wrong. We did originally P 'want to include .a definite stateaent for each group of- such ` items, as to that you were doing to improve.the conditions, but J 4' ,. , v. it would sake it too bulky, and we were trying to simplify -Ii ! .it*-' . ; | ' then tre have fini shad with this, it will be on an eight ' .* . _ ' .] hy eleven sheet. That will' enable you to tell ub after you : .*:`.-v.V-.. .. 1 have filled out`the. fora,''what are the predoalnant hazards, so ^ * * t * * _ " >* ,( that you will not use the scattershot method of - engineering, " .- * . 4 . `-'j1 ^ - . \ i . * |1 but the'direct' approach method- `You will be able to. tell what I la wrong*.:'and that is' causing the host trouble,' and therefore! I- take a rest for .-.j \ -s;> t-'?-..:'' "rj-1..4 ; \. > ... .. ' .. ' .7 23?.'2AX.EDSSOEXSc . This-'*fcm' is a. substitute for the ..J.. V::-"V- .-? : .. , course, the'id eat in cation, the case of the company, and the '. I location, of the yard, the average number of employees, et ! * * . *i cetera. How, some cf you are going to ask ma what do you . mean by "aTerage number of employees", as .of what time. He _ ... * * ' did not put that oh the fora, r*da~not believe, but ItemHo. ; i : 4,givss us the total employee hours worked, and Item lio. 3 ; gives us the Average number of employees, on the payroll dur ing the 15th of the month. t ; I v How, there are all kinds of ways of getting the average .! of that type, but-that is the simplest and the most useful, j Have . any of you any . suggestions . for making it any \ simpl'er* than that? ..* ` . ' ` *' ' !*{ | . V-' How, you are going to have women, so it Is employees, ' \. . * ** instead' or man-hours. That is a question of adding up the ; Ij ! 'total incaber -of hours of. the work your' employees work., and | '. ' * /*** f. ~ \ ' * , *. , .j you can get that from your-payroll, or estimate it very .j elobely*"-;/`:!-:'^ ; \ '-''j.. . . \ ~\Tou will a.lso notic.e,1 we'are listing fa. talities, perman-i . , . * * . * ' t eat impairments, temporary total, and then total, and under ; ., n - -;tha: total iis *nah-disabling injuria c** Horn,. reading across .| ~.tha '.columTi,-:'ih. the' first two columns is tha. number, and in 1 * - if** *[!*>, *r/ ^,;y u.** i *'*".*.'"* '** * ' * "thsrlaak: two' colnans'arm days lost, tinder the. number, you ..* . * . 'v _ rt* y .V I 'i'.-iAV ,-* ' J * * '- * N| rspltfc ,thn.tr ** xr-v* .that: occurred:, faring tfa nenfa* and: t v.. ./ *** ~i ; . . * * %* *i .c^ greater aovsrltgT thsa fofaerly-reportcfa Thoas. thnt - occurred daring the- month.,"'and- gty of. those that- occurred and t* % .vc*, _* * \ / A ZSha r . ** 1ST were reported during the earlier month, and subsequently turned out to be more severe in terms of disability uhc are listed,. there' is* a temporary total, and a permanent impair ment under _Iteas 7 and 6, respectively,r ' * KR. GRAEAH: Eow'can you determine that? Zou cannot * tell that the severity is until'the accident is concluded, so hotr do you hnou uhich is the greater? I ' HR. 'KOSSORIS: Tou recorded for any earlier month. . HR. GRAEAH: Suppose you have a man uho has been severely ** ... * * . t\ injured through a'fracture, and you expect him* to be injured : * * . s [ for a year,' and another one'with the same injury, and you .do ' ` not hnou uhichis thegreatest severity.' i : "'"...HR. ECSSOBIS: Tou do not estimate that. If a man has ' ' . a fractured arm,' so far as you tnotr, all you hncw that it x* * ' ^ ` ^ * * .. . `, i j ia. a. "temporary disability. * If*he has'lost his arm, then you I * ....... *' * - '. hnoer it is a permanent impairment! Houever, if, say, three .' ' >'.*".. -: * i- '. .. . ' j ! norths' later the fracture develops and he' is further impaired,; 'then you Just report that undar item 6-(b), and that indicates - v". '. / . . " . * .* . ' . 1 that fn earlier injury-h&g- % (**, ' *, *. *.. . * ,r% -" * ., All- me. are''trying to-get is'-a eouht'oif the- fatalities --,. ** ^r* .* v* that are permanent and' temporary. "IT you. uish to put this .V* ** * * V>. `*V*.* ,.*\fJc , * ti ' * * .. . . .. on aa anasarbaisisi* .and`.let these ride, that Is all right, Si .< ^ ` /1 .*`. _.**.****' .. ii'^S-r.zv.*`< . , . > . . , * * ' bat`on 'a*monthly':basis*, you have tu use a mahe--shift arrange-- 4,' *. ***.. '* . . *.'* ,f. * .\ ,* ,* *' * '** * . -..v ft-1v.- aent, 'in*' order-, tb * catch upr .* *' ,* . . V-./.-*. .* *' ` ' . ( 37hs . 1SS -Under the "Days Lost* there is a column Tor Injuries during the -month, and that is sinply the time that you h&v lost for injuries that occurred during that .particular non * %. * and if people are injured in earlier months, and are still out* in the month reported here, you oan cover that absence under column *!)* . . " ' Now, we have to break this up in this way, because cn & monthly reporting basis, you cannot accurately accusulat- anything^ because you have to give it recognition as it co: up," and so by breaking it. in this way, you should have no *' difficulty -Boat so ever, ** . . , . Under the non-disabling injuries, we are Just asking t '' the number that occurred, during the month* * ' '. *...\The frequency rate is shown as Item No. 10, and that -."is explained, thsrs immediately following that heading.* It ' is a'Tery simple operation, and you put.it directly on the. ' * . . ,. . , fora to. sare .the trouble of,having to look for it in any other place. 1 ` ` ^ ' Ue are not asking for tha severitlas for the very slar HK .L reason8 you." cannot daml op a severity rate on tha monthly bs ** ** # *.*'* * *,. x. s;*jr .*. *-m4.* * - not knowing what your tine, losses arc going to be. A nan g .- 'hurt 'in'April* .and docs not get back.'to .work, until July* an * * ;* ** ./* **?r/-' vc 1 * . -**'*1'.'*.* *^**. . `* 'yen cannot;tall ne .in April that the severity rate Is,, be : .;*u?* <".** : i-. .-_ i-;*T:..'-*'; ; . . -w---. ; - . r_. _` * -- . > r. cans a you* would, not', know .tha "total tine* *- .. . :. -;5;^ixEU-SAISr ' However*, the doctor * a' estimate will give *yc a fair .comparison, wouldnTt it? That would give you somethin to work on,and that you would lose on one case, you would pick up on*another case, so at the end of the year- it would cone out approximately rigt. r '' ' .' SR. SOSSORIS: There is no"object ion to keeping them, if * * % .' . . you want to, and-I suppose many of you do, hut so far'as we . * # are concerned, all 'we are after la the frequency rate, and if we know the distribution in terms of fathlitiss, permanent t Vli cPt* inpayments, temporary^ et cetera, we hare a pretty good ' * idea of that that' story is . 4. ' * HR. CONLOH: Do you mean the- total employees now at 4 . \ work? . . * /V:.:/ HR* EOS SOHIS; Tou can take that information from your payroll, 5 ,--`HR, COHLQH: ` ' * ;-**-:* ' * - ' ' ' * .That is'what I was 'going to ask you about, -X believe that most of.ua keep our payroll by.the week, and. v . : * r": .* - | it is very difficult to get it exactly, and we have been doi: I -'.it for the Haxitlme Commission on a four or a five week peri I HR*. E0S2QRIS: Couldntt you break your week on the numb w...g-:.. ooxf dcaayysT,;vx'llf* it''is two cdays out' ooif' tuhbe wubewe. k, or two-sixths^ ' Vr'v'rV-:'-* CCI71CIT:- tfell,- it iff very .diffi'oult to- get them to _ J-^-r.^-VV ' " ' ^JL-/d .that,' because.- it requires a lot of work in the payroll that, da 190 you hare to offer on that? * . HE. GHAHAU: ' DonTt they all sign a dsHy labor' report? ' Ve tabs our records from the daily labor report. * .. EH. KOSSORIS; Then- you have got daily reports, and it is Tery simple to 'add them up. . *SB. GRAEAH; Well, ve have to reconcile that, and I think that is easily done. . HR. rosseals: Do all of the rest of you have your ' records on that basis? ' '. EE. X. G. JGXES, (Southeastern Shipbuilding Corporation,' * .* . ** .* * I Savannah,- Georgia): It is absolutely impossible for us to ' get it on anything other than a four or a five meek basis. " v.Xt.is like pulling teeth non to get it from the department ' .on that basis, and I mould like to see it on either a four .or a five meal: basis. ~ ' ' j ,u.. HR. XOSSOHIS: that you are going to do there 'is that j ` .. "i if you are going to aim -the thing up, and have some of them ................... ; ,i on a monthly basis, and some on a. four or five ueek basis, uhea tre start compiling them, and comparing them with each ; :.othor, .tho enpericnce trill not be quite the sane. It mn ay not i.- ` ,, * . - . 'nnha. at^r diffarense*'X'do not know*' : , , * ,t .. * y-u*.4% * J' , z***. *.. -- ** -...*,j.r * ,*,.* ` . . . . # |{ -U"-Z i'z JOUSSt On-this injuries on fatalities,, are ee going . ... / . ; "'to a tha S.GCOT >vb-r* . - X-1 '-'l-V ' ..." r ' < 'l' V ' *'* '* ' ' "* L d out than? 40hs I an referring to '*o* oa fatalities. 191 . HR. K0SS0RI3: .Well, 70U naxhare days lost during the south because of injuries. w 'When It cones to pamansnt inpairnents we can estimate pretty cloael7 what those- losses amount to, hut In terms of actual tis.8 lost for work* that la another stor7. The tine ' t charges do not take that into account, and this will. . . Are. there anj other questions on the fern? . . HR. LESS20KS, (Great Laics Engineer): Could we taka . the consensus so far*, whether these hours should he based i \ on a weekly basis, or a monthly basis, rather than certain ' r days? Host of us figure our nan hours per week, and on a ( lr rn \ four--week basis would be such easier figuring than breaiing- li i; thea'up in the niddle* , . . . .. . .SR. S0SSQ5I5 i What is 7our pleasure on that? .i _ HR.. GRAHAH: Isn't It a natter of record in regard'to =- 'the nan-hours worked? I believe that information is available il I' ll to every department that manta it., isa.'t it? 1 . .. * `* '' ! -HJ HR. CORXOHt We hare 12 four-week periods throughout the 4..i- . J* 1* i JOHHSOJ: (Haloor Company, Portland, Oregon) I *:.V . -r " *. i think vc are exaggerating-the Importance of a few can hours -c 'core or lass* I da-`not. see chy thoy cannot take four full j .'traoka and take the two" extra' days,* cr whatorer they are eork- . ` ime* What if they do nine 10,000 man hours., you will catch it ilh-3 l ?i ** .'. c* all up at the - end * of the rear", anyway. gateau Terr such difference. 132 I do . hot think it . HE. EOSSORIS: It nakes a auch neater setup for cocuari- Bon to hare it on a aonthlr basis than to have it at differ ent tines of the month, say, froa the 5th to the 13th, or whatever the tine nigtt he. _ ~ Suppose we-leave it on that basis, and ash you to estimate for whatever period 70U hare and ask you to give % us the estimate so far- as you? nan hours are concerned. HE* WITS: Couldnrt you extend that to the. 15th of the nonth, instead of the loth of the nonth? \ . . CHilR.-JA.If HDCHS: . It is the 15th of the nonth. v .* * . '. an error at the top of* the page. . ' . That is ... HE* SUITE: . I haTe a question on this setup; Suppose ` *..'*- .r yards hare private contractors coning on the yard doing ' " *. - i incidental Jobs, and there are Uarltine and Harr inspectors- ; in 'the yard, but arc thcr to be included in this setup, and ! are thej all to neet with these sane .requirenents7 . , < . . CSUEHiir BQCHj>: If it la a sub-contract, and ther are -/-' paid'br the shipyard'operators* ` then. they must be ccnpellsd ` 1 I to neeftho requirements that arc net by your people in the |.. yard-'. tfa had a case like that involving asbestos, because -' QTontrnTTy; in ' going "to' cans back on your shoulders, and ***..* m. *.'*. * . ' I 9" ` w,`* r** . _.V oonebody uAli. have to pay the bill. ` ' -. . j 13 1 . ' . ; ' 193 Baausont, leias): I thick hr. Salth'o qaoatlon ras ecppoas t a ship came- in for repairs, and supposedly belonging to Texas, ue as a shipyard ropair that ship, and they are not actually working on Sanitise contracts, then how would you report that? CHA.IRHA.JT ROCHE: Do wo want reports where work is done in a Haritine yard, hut . not on Haritine wor*k on employees * involved in that work? .For example, repairing a ship belong-' ing to the Texas Company. I would say no, offhand. '. : HR. USO*: I would sa7, "Ho* offhand, but the percentage of that work is going to bo so snail and Infinitesimal that I do not think it trill reflect any degree of change whether ! wo have it or do not have it. I thinkthat eould be included \ . *. or not included, as you all decide here. ^ ; ' HR.* T&LLiCS I. Tirpyr (no ore Drydock Company,. Oakland, j ` . i California) : 'It would...help us & groat deal, .1 know in our j . . . * * particular case, if wo.could lump 'the whole thing all together * * * . . . ".I j .. .. Sow, take sn example where a man is injured in our ** . * * * >. . ;i' aadiine eh op, and ha nay be working on Havy work, maybe garitine, naybo repair, and It ia pretty difficult to ascer tain whether- cr pot that wua- a. Haritine Job he was working * * `* ... on cr not. ran dooa not know h.*Tf the time himself. .. - v : .! r . - - . .. ; ,inR TITUS-: X doubt if thoro would bcy say, ono out . * *. * v . * "*** ' . *1 * * - fi-wp hundred, caaea, taking thw ukolo thing ovur-all, t *. . . ` . ' '. ` if | * would. W allocated, to a private- Job, amd X do not oe*" W, you cannot.include alX.of it right-in tha single re- II r3hs rs' -- .. that you trill hare a unifors rule all the tray through. 194' < ' - Per exasplo, a can the la turning a lathe today for a i private Job, .nay for the next 29 days be working on Haritine Cossission or Bavy work, and similarly with every other class! ' , (_ V . #t * f ieatlonV '. ; . .. -** * i * So, I think in vietr of the fact it la so snail,you night c- as troll ltnsp it riit in, and include it all in there. EH. SEITH: Iy question then is in this regard: tfe have quite a nunber of private contractors who cone into our yard who- do insulating work, and doing sayb'e construction work * . _- x while we are still operating, and also the'Kavy and the I 1 ' !rM:; Earitine nen, who are doing routine.' inspection work-on the .* . * * * K it Job. That is that I had in nincL . . * i! . . CEATPiiH BCCESt That is the way -I understood your cuss ... , ' . I i tion, and he thought that I did not. there you have a contrac . c6 '{ tor in thd yard* he nay not ondanger your sen, cr he say e> ; danger your acn by hia operations. ' > ; --.-8a* . - EH# SUITE: The question was this sorals offect of these. -particular eaployecs of ours seeing these other fellows i : cTlawed to do an 'they please. 'VK**r* S.V-:: ' ',, . j - * -:V 'GaillEAir H1CE3: That is why when we. discus sod this : v cattar, we designate the responsibility to the- engineer, so j . that when'contracts core Io to- outside eontractars,. you will, ?.r.-V'v;* ! 'writ into., tho 'eoutract' thd safety: provisions that they ore \ *V.Vr. ' .** **/.** ' * * - '* .* * ; ,* i ---i rrrr_ 'nrwT therr will tirrnnTl t* b thn aan thaC ' 195 ihz f you have la your yard, . I ' i . ' H2. EHICri .That la the thought that I had on arising. 1 '' ' ' .1jj Zf you put an over-all blanket catch-all provi&n in your `. 2 contract, that a sub--contractor13 eaployeea ahould he covered, ,_L ' -- thou it la understood and agreed that the sub-contractor's .. i asployoes trill he hound hy and vill adhere to all of-the ' safety rules, regulations and requireaents in effect In the . n<1* yard* Then, you havo the whole thing taten care of, and your ii legal department can worh that out very quickly. . k Sij 2R4 SHITHt X have taken this up on numerous occasions >N | i - with cur top aanageaent, and tre cannot aeea to reach an agreeaent an. that, because we do have several sub-contractors | _ xln tha yard, and they have been a11erred to do those things, and It has varied a handicap, and It is one of eur definite ... prohlans." ' Vl*'; |` V '* ,, ; ! \ icShlTWR HD CHS: If you will xrrlto ne a letter, I will-.' | ha glad to givo. you that in the forn or a roconnendation* R - 'All rights among the other foras, you will see several li . or thea There* 'and the only reason I list then at all 1a no __ . tor totIA >0 Isolate*. hero. . SW,' 1,11 T0IT 0'lJpla' j '' ! v'ia"wrc<ioer.,?-lsaoerwl-o.' ~_ .to n0* Vttas^To0then^, and we l ,/ .* . will ha glad to' hal? you 'in the preparation or your own feras, * /': : - ce* `giro you sosa'informs,tloa on. existing foxes'. ` .. "t* ' ..." .j-'-- .* * ;rr . . \ ' . : S2.`-lID3SCni3r./.*Bid; X'waterstnnd you to say the super-- - * * J * '' . **V * * * ` `" ' 5hs ( (' ' . visor's report in oa optional fora? 1S6 :I i CSAIKIA5 ECCEZ: Bo, it la not on optional fora. That ' . ** i foxoi snst bo nosd in one nay or'anothor. If 70U bare a fora ' " i use it,'and if you have not a fora, use that one, and by the ; tine the regional consultant gets around, he will find whether -i .it is any good cr not* .I 11 EH. 10 220HIS: fell., if ue ore to drav off statistioa * * j i! fros these 'foraa.ond tre have 35 or 40. different foms being ! used, that uill be very difficult. . ' ,! CHAIHEiH EOCES; tell, nost of then are liie that. * .* ** * * . __' * ' HE. HCUGr: Can they all ccnfora to that? , . >_ * . - *' CSAJESEAH SOCES: Host of then do confora to it. . * \ * 4 * HE. RX5S: Eould it be nuch trouble to mahe the other j I ! 1 j * foms exactly liha this? 'i ...'._ ..' * * . * * * . . - i! - '* .EH* TEiHSEr X 'could UJia to subait our foresa for your ' , m consideration* *'. v - . 2R* JSip&i Lot us g dcun to braes tachs on this thing. 'ffo are not going to be able to chech this deal in any uay at! - \ . ,. t* 'all if vo are going to be vacillating`about the ferns that ; cVcacs isw''Ehf`fianrt you. have a ecsnittoe appointed* or cons- / body appointed to ga out and bring in a standard fora that /'you uill'all agree ta,,. oo that ue ron/t have any question- : 1 abast iiu.. Ee uili say uhsn ue prooulgato the standards that * * ,** *L.* \,j.*<./; .**% ** -* -S. *** ** *. *. :i : this, is*thu'fccra to bo used for the supervisor1 s report* be-- * * . . * * . *' * i. r -*'? ' ca. n- toe'if * you. change' it' a# round *.*.** * ' in one* little * way or * anoth*e. r* _ | * h 197 first of all It nates It difficult*/ so far as analyses of then are concerned, and secondly. It leads to difficulty, so far as 1storprotations are concerned. Hoc, we hare the opportunity with, everybody gathered here today, to do soaething that- I do not believe any other industry with as broad a scope as this has ever had" er chance to do, namely, get down to bed roch, and say this-goes for all of tts. If that is not good enough, and we do not want to impose anything on you that you do not want, but if that is not good enough, tell us what is good enough, and let ua understand that we will use that fora, and that only.' * _ I do not aee any other tray that we can get going on thiathing. te are here to standardise things, and you canno* standardise then by letting a little slide off to the fight, and a little slide..off-to the.left, because the first, thing' you fcnow, you aro all out in the .nlddle again. . C2LIKSA3 ECCHE: Let ua have ouch a connittee appointed on that fora, then. ' ./ ., HR, tTEELUIi X taJsa it, then, that this supervisors form in not to- go to the Conniesion? : ' . j V' _ * __ * .` * i C2AIK2A2J ECCES: Tars, it coaos't the Saritine Connie sic :j dofiattoly, ' J-**'.***. * * j - J Soar, wo will appoint a connlttae to naho a study of /that fora and report on It tomorrow noraiag. X an' go-lng to appoir % ." * *' ea that, ccsnlttao Carter Kendall, as diaima, Dave Lector,. I 7hs ` .' 198 ;i and I. 0. Jones. I an going to ask you follows to got to- \ gather this erening and be prepared to report toaorroer. By tho way, I would alBO like to add to that ooasittee Han: 't lassoris. . IN - (b) The following fomnlaT'sha! 1 be used in dot era Inin . 'I accident frequency and serenity rates for shipyards. ^ 1. Accident frequency - ' ` ' ` # Sunber Disabling Injuries X 1,000,000 Total iian Hours Worked for Period ~ . * *. , Covered . 2. A disabling injury ehail be considered to be any injury which results in a nan being unable to report for work on the aert regular day cr shift after the accident, or .* , one w. hich calls. for a.standard tine% ch arge being aade regard lass of whether tine is actually lost. If tine is lost due to the injury, H * * * subsequent to tho initial return to work, 1.the: " ; * *1 ; . the injury be accounted as disabling. . 4.1*4 Hinutoa central' safety eosnittee. ' . 4.15 Sinateo supervisors- safety connittee. *' .* * * 4*13 inspection connittee tons. . * .. . .a.' " Himrtos of neotingn should show data and tine of '.neeting, naacs of these present, action on unfinished bnsiac briaf description cf now basinoao discussed and action taker or ordered by the eonsittoe on each JLtca. The discussion should always include' tha predestinating accident haaarda of the yard" and' the neoaa suggested ta control then. . % 4S^2s I TQQ X v* b* ' Yarioua Inspection committee foms xd.ll be cade , available to.shipyards on request. ! tt ! 4,17 These forms, and any others pertaining to indent rl \ safety or--health shall be filed and Bade available to author! . -.*' .. ' . -! tad representatives of the IT, S. Kavy-haritime Commission ' * upon request* '' ' ' '- '' I HE. SEISES.: X would lihe to go bach to that part refer- [ ring to a-disabling injury xihich results in a nan being unabl . i to report for xrorh on the next regular day or shift after the . ". ;' accident, or one which- calls for a standard tine charge being \i Bade, regardless of whether tine is actually, lost, lhat does unable to report for tori* mean? Our Insurance carriers i - * |" * " do not. permit us to bring a nan bach to worh if ho has 'a [ patch ever hir.eye. ' ` CEAJRUAH EOCHS: The answer is If he la there ready fer 1 xrorh, that it'ia not a .disabling injury. '1 'EE,-.S2H3ES: Eha. -is to decido that7 - j ' CELX221H EOCES: Ton in your yard* Xf the'man is there. -it--in up to -yuur nodical'-officer to - decido-that*--tfe--cannot -t naha any, docintone or a medical nature, because tre have to -... * ^ y *. -- ; . , ^ * i ^ # ***.^ .* . * * _*. \* , . t ^ * ' .* * * . . * * .."* * , *. * *. 'Xsavc'that up'ta the''doctor, 'and that is.a condition that .! * (* ' */ ***** ` * * , . * t * *. \ ** .. * . t has to. be corrected locally, If you do not agneewlth. nc. ' . . h r*' ..... .? . . * - . - . * --. -. ; .* - Ir .w>t..i;2hsdr- Is- m. definition on thn font, paragraph. 1, that is ' a. standard,and, it-is generally accepted as that definition! j /. It daea net leave each leeway; if a nan in there ready' tot' do work, he le not & lost case. I suggest that we novo on, as It la getting rather lat 5.. Safety consltteea. . 5.1 ' The safety dlreotcr. In cooperation with the ehi yard general nanager," shall cause to be foraed and put Into effective operation at least the following safety couplet ee 5.11 Gantral safety conaittee . a. Henberehlp: nanagenent representative (chalrnan safety direotor, (secretary) superintendents, forenen, sedl cal department representative, quarteraen or leaderaen, and one esployee. \ .' . . . \ . Sow on this safety connittoe, the safety director as such _should he a secretary, and he should not delegate that . * . \ . responsibility. .. ' ' * " Heaberaklp.of all hut nanageaenl representative . r v *. ; . . * ` . .. aedleal ' departaent representative'and safety director shall be (nay he) rotated ~ toms of 2 nonths each hut rotation be arranged so only' 1/2 of ecsaittee changes each couth. * * ** : * flatr, there in considerable leeway there, and if you -.want ta. hoop.hip on. for three nonths* that is all right, bu' - da not nako it~'a'pamaaesh ccssittoo. *' '`'v-'-'lv Soctiaga --' Shall, ho- nojxthly or nora often as. . * * ' " '__ ' - *-* Oj. * ` naocscnry. " i ^*^1- tha-.caao- of" soat c thane central co mittcos they : ,, *. ` . I ' amt' and again,/`and their- average in about 12 or 15 tines a Jha / `. * . 2U1 V year, but not at regular intervals, and it la up to the t eafety director to see that they hare to noet at least once a nonth, or 12 tines a year. ' '" * HE.' C03IL0H: . This setup now count s manda the old Sarltin Coccaisslon -instructions in regard to. an executive safety ccmittee, and a general safety connlttee? t , HE. EIHQ-: Anything in conflict uith this that has gone *i * on in the past, trill he disregarded. ' . ' ** V CEilEHAH BOCEE: How, if 70x1 want to have the Haritine nan on there, yon can, .of course. These are cininuns. If you want the Harltine on there, put hia on. . 0 * . * d, duties -- Shis is the policy foralng corsnittae for s ** **_. . 'safety wori. Th ey raviaw.. the * soatfaly. report as su bmitted to t_ *. * ,. * , H*' S#* Havy-Haritiaa Ccnsi3oion. and other records to detemine the course'of-safety rorh for'eonins period. 'Thq^ decide sue natters as type of safety cquipaent to he*used and how it /_ shall he sade available to'non* types, of- safety training to ho' waeid*. whether accident prevention -plan is being adhered . , * . to* intor-plant coctost awards, otc Sone such counitto'es* 1 `review the inrwntigatian on'fatal cr' st erious- accidanto^ and *1-- ,*, : *a ' -. i.t*" V*'^ * '* " *\ *'* ***">? *' Vl W V * * % '*.* .*/ * .jsnaajtsms reeonsandatiozuW'AH ccxrssiiiittaaee'-&nccaboru are expected to . . , .** ., . , * ^ .** -v. _ >, . . . ** * . \ V; V * /;* : ' " ^nahe practical-cu(j3wirt:icrsa`to inprovu-shipyard safety. .-They- also revia-w reparts- cf. other' ccnnltteoa to oaha certain 1 trusgeationa and reusrmead'atlcca are properly followed ' . . **"-. . ** *, ; * % , ^ 0m .* ... ,a ' *. ' * nv i--*. * \ ' **.* threugu 'V'V/'V .. * * * .* - .. *.* * . ' .hs L V nsrh fin 202 o* ` Secretary - Tho safety director ehall act as ! . * t 1 secretary, prepare aa agenda, tahe ninutes, prepare a report of coaalttee ooeting and distribute copies of reports to ! a sabers. Ke shall follow through with other comaittees, ; the suggestions and recoemendations of the central safety - . EH. tSHUS: X do not believeI understandparagraph *a*. ` Does that aeon one superintendent, one forenan, or does it ncan all of the forenea? * ' : i ii i ! j CSAJEHA5ECC3S: Ho, Juatthe representatives. j ; ' HE* BhlrS: Sho representatiYos froa each craft? ' ` ^ . _ CZITKEAH EOCES: He, Just representatives. fou could not possibly get then froa each craft* . I thirl in one yard, we 4 .' * would have 500 forenen in there, hut representatives we would * i v'* v * *'*.' v - ; * * * ' ' sty cf two' cr three.' ...Ha will leave that up to the individual yard for their best decision on it* " .. ' . ' EE* PASE1B3: I.wonder if we could gat this over to the : . - V'..- . ............ . . '` ' Esvy oh this safety cossittce, cr the safety `engineers using ; a psrticalair typo of safety equipaent. I brow the Bavy," | ^chorally cpcnhfng, in very good that -way,, and.in certain yards :c *. . '.V ; certain' inaivtduals whs* ar_ reearvo officers and. who hnew \ 'V;*"T'; * *. | `nothing about safety,;' dictate the tarns of what typo ef e<piip- . aant wa are to. gurchaoo,' `end, it nr.hna it. very enharmsoing r " r* * "-C ; - ` .'.j * . ; ' .. .. ;:ana'difficult*' jvv'u:;-C-v`'.. I j *. . . V nr...--"?'. . *, . * ; . - .*.- . xtarCoa Cyl 8 Coaroy fols ES li ( I ------- CEAIEHiJI ROCHE: - fhat -in-true probably in seas , %* * * but.you-vlll find la your nedical standards, that th of approved. equlpaent aro specified, aad there will or no leeway there* It trill contain a decision pruev of, .what' conpaniefl you. trill hare to buy the equipment HE. PACSLAFU: Can tre get these reports that cans' from the Navy to the various yardsT _ CHAlEHJaH K0CE2: It probably trill, and the Navy, course, has its own plan on It* _ . * TTould you Ills to coment.on that question? . CC2HA3D23 CAKLSOH: I understand they are preparIn; Hat natr, and that can bo referred to as a Bible* ,% I thlnh tre can erori that out a right you Howe"? ne`in regard to your individual case* - CHAJhllAg, KOCHS: Ihanh you, Conaander* It haa been su^eated that.'we all non go down to aee.Br. Drlnhar'a de atrntlon on trelfllag and ventilation, and after he.has fin- 2nhcd.WQ shall rsaaln. thorn and finish our deliberations t\ there, because tre havo gat "to be out of this roes by five. anyway. "uo"naybo a little late. .fCherauncn* an odjoumnent tras tahen at 5:45 t\ ft'cloch: p.s*' te'5-tCQ Moloch p*. a.) ---AFTER. HZC2SS .. * > / {The-neeting eras resumed, pursuant to recess , ` * 5:C0 o'cloch p. cu) ' ' . CKAIR2AII ROCHE: I suggest that those safety sen . rear nove`up to the front and they util ho able to hem better. * .' '. r ' ' 'aOien ve finished upstairs, ve uere Just starting ? 6, `Supervisors * Safety Cossalttee.* That la on Page 6, It is 5.12. .. `, HR. DAVID KATE: Before you start with that, I soui lihe to refer to 5.11, In connection with neabership on . .* - \* Central Safety Consalttee. X aa not trying to plug any p; ticular organIzation, but shy couldaet there be a represe stive' of labor and a representative of aanageaent speeif I ".ally' representing labor and aanageaent cooaitteee? . . y/; CHAIH2A3 R0C3S: That la a very good point. The ques \ . . * .V v * ` . ' ` - \xssa, "thy couldnrt thore be a representative of aanageaent a representative of labor.on. the Central Safety Ceanittee, 'and' eopocinlly designated to represent the laborr-Banageseu ^-coaaittoo. Tho- arsuer .to r~rhriT~J^t 'grfirtgt^^e<^tir^entsa.'' and only alaIrma,, requireaent 5fXc3i `can. pu^eaybodjr' ols-a on that 'eouaittee. that you vent to ^'J&sladins'tl^-chlQfr "of poliaor`of the nearest icon, if you m T .... , ** **# * * ** . * \ .V; *^; V ^. * . Ol, t i'rU _** ? ' * ' .*' i*** . * * . * *. * ! shy conlda^Vyou .oay. that it, in so reconacndod? * 205 ___... C2AIH1L&K..HCCKSV -Because sone or the yards do not have * ** . ( T. ahor-nmnagaaeat conaltteea. Ve hope that all of then will have* ' ffe can lnolude, if you Ilia, where there aro lahor- naaagenent couaittees, if It la agreeable that we hare such representation. I flee none head a hahlag. ' I would say this : >. Thla Velng the alntcaa requlreaents, 1? you want to put then i ; .. * j on, go ahead, and It la a good idea, In ay opinion, and IT 1 '' * you have' not got one or donTt want one, why, leave then off. | B3U. 33U2X1H: X would say that you leare it as it is, | and put then on If `you wont then on* . -CHAIH2IA3 BCCH2: All right, that will he the decision. | Is that all right with yon. Hr. Sayet | .**.*. j \ '.SB. lATS:' All right. .* .... ' . ;:- CHAXH2A3 BDCSS: So will tnhe it for an answer, hut ha -is ns satisfied*. , ' 5Trr uo will continue with 5.1S, the Supervisors1 Safety Cossitteer* _ ,,-:V' a^J.Heaherchip - Canageaent representative, oafety . * * . * - . * . director,, nodical departnent representative, superintendents, . jj ..foruaea, quartorseB,.--and leadsman, fhis in a- rotating coc^~ :*l!*'nttow; mintIds' Should "bo. arranged a a all of the supervisor; * . "V-' . .* " J staff; servo Ia`their'respective periods,. I.a*., ouperintsnd- % . . ' ** '* *v . . . csta ahangw nnr` conthn , fcrcneg. each, two nonths ,. <juart "* . ..vr* .............v.-.i v . ---- -* . .... ................ . ` * HMfc n*e* <at, *an*d*J ,v nt ^/fem^rrrt `* _ X, n* 'n> earn should an. entire A"; v*.-t*. r-.T,i-:;, ^ *- group chaago at ona tine*-. `Shorts a ddcopartaant or unit of ^ ^ r|j-.t -- 'Ji*. s,.T , . * * .. department. has. an unusually poor rocord..then the. resoonsible . . . . . ' . ` supervisory staff - superintendont,. foremen, quartemen or loaderncn should be retained oa the committee until their record la at leant' equal to the shipyard average. . .. ` . b. . Heetihgs - Shall be monthly or semi-monthly or.noro frequently, aa necessary. . i `` * . ' ' . ^ * c. .Duties - The primary purpose of this committee is the stimulation and maintenance of interest and the educa-. tlon of its members in accident prevention. The shipyard . accident record shall be rsrieced, the predominant types of accidents and the predominant causes ef these.accidents shall be discussed. Suggestions and recommendations to im prove the records arc solicited froa each member. At least one. timely subject must bo discussed at each meeting; 1. e. * **. .. . . *' ' ' such as\eye injuries, and their prerontion,' electric ohochs, hand tool accidents r etcetera. Hethods of avoiding accidont duo to theso .operations should be presented by the committee * * k,, ` . nosbors. -- d The'committee ohall revlev reports of aTt fatal and ' aardour accidents and cugge<rt preventive action* .It shall ; "'-O', " ' * ' nprieff'reports-. ef-_inspection committees' and chech on the ' ' .quality. af^the suggested eorrectiva octlcs for unsafe cosdi- tier.a or practices- reported* " ' . ; . . . -`v *. ' " :XjEU. iLL^izALL-i Dhichin the scalar- esnnittee? ; . s r.i '> CSAUuHU BCCIISr The Central Committee- is tha s ZL 52t couaittee, ' ........... -- -- - .................................... ... . HR, .EUTDALI*:. - And thon-7ou would havo the senior ce:n- nitteo passing on the Central Coanittee? . CSA-Lr^L&H RCCHE: .JJo , hut the/ ohall act on racocceniia* tlons, I reversed that, or. I turned It around, la other .-words, they will do as they are told hy the Central Safety Conaittee. . * . ' . * .' * ' ** * . HR, rESDALL: . In other worda, they shall carry out the suggestions? . ... CHAIRUAH ROCHS: Tee, they shall carry out the sugges tions and recosaendations* / '. . - . . HR, 23SJDALL: .That in hotter, It is a little hit loose there* ' ... - . . ` HR* .SUES! tinder Section C, you oay,She ohipyard acci * d^ e*' n* t .rec*o r*;d% shall t **f, he reviewed, the * , *'' t f * predoalnant . >% t ' typ* e,s of , * aceidonta and the predoalnant causea of -these accidents .. * ' ' " - -ahall he discussed** Uhy wculdnft. it. he p'ernisalhle to add *'!***.** w *** ^ ** t * , ** ^ . * ^ . * ` *. *aEdopprepriatestcps tnhen'to olininate then8? The suggestic. "-..v . .. . . .. and rocesaendatioas aoaotinefl are not aotlonahlo, hut if you ' * . . 1, , pat in specifically that, an appropriate action shall he tahe: Vvvi ------------------------- ---------- pretty specific ' " I ^ **,*;'* , HOCUS? - .tie are in- hopes hy this tine the condi* * * *Vp*'' fA ***T>*\*-- *** * ** 4`f* ** ^ - -" -- * .L..V>t2an .tI^t.^hare-.canned, the accidents hare already been tahen L'r> v .--v ' . . | care cf, arsapt'os a general ovurall spread*. That is, on . I -.v"-- "V:-~r"VCj?-;.'v , v- r.- .- *. r '<.. - . **'. Lr *.....** -. ** .* *\":**** . %**.>/ .** V '* ,* . .. # . & .' . v 'vJ> / ; 208 groups of accidents. Individual cases ahould "be taien care of by tKftt tine. . The question that in Paragraph (o) after * '* 4 ." '. this sentence, the second sentence, "The shipyard accident record ahall be reviewed, the predoninant types of accidents and the predoninant causes of these accidents shall be dis cussed,* there be added "and appropriate action shall-be taiei *Ba you agree that that should be In or leave it out, that is,- leave it the way it is? * ' 'j .: HE. E2HXALL: Well, if the Central Committee is the pollcy-fomlng body, they should tahe the action, rather . than the advisory, .. .. . CHAITvIAB ROCHE: It is Just a double chech,. because ; * . -* i ^ they are giving a sore thorough review than the Central Conr* . nlttee can give, because of tha close contact, **.** . * . v;ve*- .tha coisaittoe shall act on the suggestions and ' . ruconaendationg of the central osaittee, * " . . ; ... Cataida speakers ouch aa safety engineers, insuranco senj jj. state departaent,-laboraen or nan froa ether shipyards, nay \ be used 'froa tine to tiae to stiualate interest' of eonnltt ee ---caabers la, acoiduntrpraTcgtibn. worh, . Sound fila strips, ` J ' "* 'V ` * : / S ' ^* *.v V\ *r ` . / cation pictures orve'Uiojr sinilar nefiia. on safety subjects j / can.and should, bo used if available end practicable* L * Secretary- -- Eaac as- fen central aafoty coccaittae, coaa ta" tho impaction casnittoos, `if no arc t* j "* * ,, ,. .. - | ..through there.. /.' ' - r.- V.- ~y ' ' j . v - * - --: ' :"t ! 20; a- - Efunfcor - Ono committee for each, department and each, hull* ........ . .** ........--'............................... ' *` . ^ b Inspection - Weekly or noro often ae neoeosary.' . . o* Kenborship -- At least tuo employees and a supervise 4 employee of.each Job being. Inspected. The safety director ,' % - or' otaff safety engineer nay and should also accompany the committee, , . ' ' . d* . Duties to inspect their department .or hull for ** `i tho purpose of discovering and having corrected unsafe acts ! . . .* . II and unsafe conditions likely to cause accidents* .On each ' ' . . ' ' '_ | s section of a Job they should be accompanied by a responsible s* ,* supervisory 'employee* They are observers only - the foreman- quarteraan or leadoraan shall do all corrective work* Where. 4 a condition'is .discovered on Uhloh. there is disagreement the. . * . \ ** * * - ` .* ** ' * * * Bunorintendont shall ma.bg the aeccaoary decision* Easarda " \ r.. ; . - ' _ .... - . lsaediatoly dangerous to health, life or llhtr should be cor rected by tha accompanying supervisor at once* . - .-j i-.l/...-Sgf that I mean that the inspection committee is not to : '. . * ' * .: go around and corraet. the nen thanaolvea* There is nothing | _ ;..-that "irritates. a foreman ora crap orris er more than to have i - 4..;:.:. - - .J . ..Bc^e_Inspector cose around and give' orders- to his sen* .' J. -,-M I do'not-agree rith that clause shore a ; 'p'V v4-`; .-./v. * ..... . I ; J.- andiSIisn ia di-xesrre-red. on.uhish: them is a. disagreement vher [. , * ' . * -- *, -- vr -- . ' ` . i ' tha, c^earintoadant: shall. ua2m--th necessary decision*. _ j .- . CTAITaAg BSC33Ir Will you propofle a.suhstltuticnT ' 81c s.. HR* GHAEAH: I would ooy on cneoutiTo connittco whi rwprocdnta nanagosent, production and Hurltine Couaioelc: .. CSAIRHA3 RCCHS: Thoy ohall cmho. the deoiaion? . US* GRAKA3: that in right.' '* ' ... . ' ' CHAIRHAS BOCHSi there la only ono trouble with that t '4 % - gr-d that Is that thero la too such tine wasted la getting decision fron another eo.naittee, as this nay be sosething that noeda icaedlate action* . HE* GRASAH: 7ell, you corered. innediate action in th , * * , sort clause in that paragraph* ... .. . ' .CSAUSLAS RDCH3: You da not bell ere that they can or that they should go to the superintendent? ': mu GRASAHt He, air, I do not.- ' ' ' _ .- . j: CIAI22LAS. HOCUS: You would rather wait for a meeting 0: .tho carsalttao? 7-^ ; .' i '4* . ..<* ** * * * *. \% * * * * ** . * * * * . : ^ * ' * v. * ..HE*. SRAHASf: She superintendent sight -feel that.ho la 1 , * : * *' * * , > * . * * . . chargo* .end ha Bight docido to. disregard tho reeonaendation '* \' ` '* . ' 3 entirely, and ihon you oro'*Ioot* ' / . V '- - . **- .5H * . <- .-- - . . *"*". / '* ' - | . . . CSAXnSAS ECCS2: . I soar; what you'naan* Shat do'you this! ; eg that ralnfc? Shg-jacint^dn--ob4eotwd- to` to thU'sentenced . ---- -<*.'> i'vW.-J.* J v ' =:-\ "V.............. .. . . ' -- .j`-`.aaaro a condition- is disasTercd; oaf which-- there la a diaagreo- . abat,. the cup eriatcadcmi* shall na2ur tiur. nocesaary decision, . end' it-in- swggotrtcd- that, tho decision-bef referred to- tho t t*- L .i.sriral.S^oty^S3assittoo,. which win-tuba ccae tine*. '* \. * * *-.*-.< " 1 * " . `I :V."v* [ lAEA3i_ X do. nrrf ggrcu- that*it-wilX taha son# ttsife -* ' ;4 ,,.r *.*.'*-- 'l' * * . ; `: " ) lw 212: i i ! .s . iil . . .i1! i; - Hoxr nany of you thinh It should be changed? (a fcw.) ; *_ *i -It ioohs Ilia it will have to otay.os'it in, I * * ' . - . i < . How, again, let me point out that that is a nininua re- . .* ' r quirenent, and if you want to tube- that to your central cod .^ . * .* nittoe in your yard, that is perfectly all right to go ahead ,* # i and do it* I aean, theoe are what are hnown as rubber stand * .` > ards. The only rubber standards we have in the country* Tou can stretch it, as long as you stretch it in the right direc tion* ' - . . c*. She cocaittae shall submit written reports to the I ** ** * \ :< safety director and indicate whether accident producing con-' ,i 8tf * ' .* * ., ` ditiona.br practices hare been corrected* * ** ; These reports shall i " N\ - '. . .. . * . . 1 - .. .3 .be referred to the fluparrinory safety coanittee by the safety ,' director* ' Tf necessary because"oT dangerous conditions, he I nay refer than at' once to the general manager, -. EH*. 7RAZIZR: Tou shipped over the underlined portion T*-* 4. *->.: I r *-. \vi. ?-.* . ia;paragm?h dB'* ' '.> .V * * v *. ... * . ' `` .... CTAi.rulAH.RCChi..Ho-, T read that in a very loud voice, .| ..Then X would BUgUgat. that, cVtgwgrt '-tha. j ................ . . ...... ** / '. * permanently as a igned to roril % ^ * * ratios, ** ..... * ............................... ,* 213. 1* .s i* ! [ \ 1* StaSics Inspectors - Daily or contiguous inspections of nil stages shall be nade on each hull - or other locations here stages are used. Report .shall be aade of- all-defects '- * ** .* \ to the rigger foraaen for lnaadiate correction. Copy,of the . * ' . "i daily report shall be submitted to the safety director. . ** * ; * - Again, that `is flexible. In soce yards the staging in- spootion is done by the stage rigger foreaen. and they are i ` ` ... ' I authorised and qualified to aahe lnnediate repairs, fhe only - ` t .I thing re hare been missing, horarer, are reports which will j , .` " 'i ( Indieate-a trend that re did-get a lot of staging effects ` - '. ` ` ' ' 'i that re rant to hnor about, oo that rith that re can take - *\ . + .. ' t appropriate action to see that they do not occur again, and ; v 'V': : *. .'cut dom on any uanecossary stage repair-work. '' ' .' 2* ; Crane Inspectors - feebly inspections .shall'be .! jj nado of all 'eranea. and rigging. Sports shall be submitted !' '* . *-v. * ` " '' ' ! to proper dspartaent head for' correction of unsafe conditions' '` . *... ** . .1 . * . *. t .'*** **' *" V " * .. -- n tJ or practices* Copies of reports on defects shall be nado to ! ~ t~7tho safety .director..;....,. ......... .......... T7 c. Cthar'lbnrDoatom-r- An abere'and at indicated fre- ': :; - ' queasy*"';-yX.y * - v ~ `. - J jVV \.-_: . \-'\vy ES*. JCSISCnf* .'(PortlandV'Crogon): .The one objection X '.-I V.:.; *. ' - ...' .V-'l--'- 13 to haring.'co'nany"of thebe 'eosaittoes -'vjy:/ ^ ^ `; fiatias that .-.v'.--. j "* ` *-** I* % I &.* *#aam*ejs\a* '.to0 ., c^ althat^ ,y7;e,,n. ^a^re- tu.bing all- as?'* th,eau thority a, n, d ' v'..-: ..5..; ..*-.-y-.?.*.y'-.' -.`h '* '-i ;.''` *' #-;v . .J J } I ....... ..... .... ________ '........... ............. ` .. . . 214. ' ' . ' du. ties-o* f your: safety In* spectors..and-pu# tting the m.on con- i ;; nittees. -.-I wish-we would oonsider that t. and probably In . ,, ' I ; nany of these oases here, a safety Inspector, a qualified safety _Inspector, can act as this oonalttec. He can tata , ;' ; I i up the safety steward with hin, if he wants to be a ears- .' nittoe, but do not leare the safety inspector out of all i ' these prlnary Inspection duties. - '; CEAIH3LAH HOCEZ: That la a rery good point, and you ; ' .` `\ !j will notice there the nesbershlo it cayo "specially qualified . ' ` i individuals or teaas permanently aosigned to vor,B and' tint *" practically sahss. it the aef oty inspectors* . ' " t '! . .^ ^ i . How, there are rery few safety nen who are qualified ' : * i" crane Inspectors. In insurance cocpanleo you get special- ' ` '' i ists, for ezanpls, the ccnpany that-I was with. TTe had ele- ! II . rator nen, and thoy did nothing but lnspeot el'orators.' .T3e' | 4 * * . , | had cone boiler.nen and they did nothing brut Inspect boilers,*', and wo' had.unfired pressure Teasels In sene cases before wo = had a largo Timber f then, and those nen inspected nothing \ \" but tbp.t, - hdrb different .specialists,` and._tthhaa`t in enactly what! i :):r. ... -.. .'-..you arcfdoing Hi this - ease^-' X thlnh there- ore very ferar or >.jii -> V .\ - .'>*' . ; 'Ton. herc who would Ilia to gs cut. and naha- a canplots crane d . -* ` .-'~[r V"X'". : *._ j $ inspectionlcnrt that right? 2ba* of us- are qualified> I *1 * * If; * v*-- .. .. * . .* ^ .............. .* - . '>* :4-" -V.*:.n -. *.**. '* * *I * \I n 4,/-2co.wv *,> but* i vary'few, n-r^? you do- not- Tory' often ran Into one. .,[)*' -^Ila-you alsJlt'W_ r a&. l^o tot r# nfcfr a c onpXato* emn. s Ins\pection, . you ........................................ __ ... ** '* .................... ::. > ' certainly would-not-hc.-an- lnspector-cf hollers, ! 215 : .* ! first, ' * * i hecauflo you would not "be permitted to, and ceoondly, hecauoe * ** I *1 you aro not qualified to do that' particular type of nor!. ' . . 'HR* COIILOS: I was going to say the sane thing that ** . . : i this gentlcaan hack here 'said. 1 tafl going to ask who is to '- i appoint theee non? Are they to he appointed hy the safety 1 * .* . i departnent, or hy the various superintendents? t ,. ' ' l . . CEAER2AH ROCHZ:- T^at is a very good point. They ohould he appointed on consultation with tho proper departnent # .. *. , * j. t i J heads hy the safety engineer, and will rery properly h'eeone - ; ' 4 * * . a port ef hio departnent on they do in 'aoae yards. * .i 'i . *h ' . . HR-.-COULCR: Ittlooha like they aro going to overlap, ' ` * '' -. . ' j ' ; CEAISHfijr ROCES: -Veil, I realise that the crane in-* - : .specters liio to aaintoin control af the cranes in their yards and. the riggemen liho to take cars of thoir own nen^and. j ? * . > I that in-all right. ' The sain thing is to get the inspection ; 'I4lIii ' -i . -.I' . . - ' dons, nrtd the conditions eorroctod. v": -j vi ' - .................................. * i. * ! ` ' - ' ".HR. S2SISLSS: Under the nenbership of the central safety comittooi the aanngencnt has a representative, and he is the discusionn following t * : * * - - ` ` *. ' to ho that-nan," is ho .nay: he* } t , *** v * vl\ ' 14k ' ..-1- 2ie all of the reconacndations that- are*nade? , . CEilHEAK H0CH2: Copies will he given to hia as is lndi cated undor the duties of the safety engineer for keeping th general nanager inforaed ef tho progress of safety in the yard* .' . , ECU QRSSIfLSS: Is it Just a question of keeping hia in- fomed, or will he he given the privilege of saying, flles,* or,So*T V . ** ; CEAJH3AH ROGER: SToll, not only he given, hut he will prohahly take it, and he usually does, . . HR* SRSZilLSS: Bell, it is not here, and>.I thought it ought to he hero,, ..... ..... * . CHAIE2A5 B0CE2: -So, in ether.words, we have purposely avoided, a eying that the general aanager in tho yard cast do this .and cast So that, because them is no use hunping your head against a atone wall, fo am leaving it up to kin to-, 'appoint a.nanagoaest representative on these conaitteea, and it nay he'hlnsolf, and.wo. aro leaving it up to ths safety engineers- to keep hia properly iafsmed of -concLitions in the yard with, re epoch .to safety, honith, hygiene, ot cotom, * - * *4 , * . , . t ' 1 , . ** * .* * i. . r , t. .-*. v: . . psd .that is whom they' all cane under,. ' _ '--.v.-.i HE, SKS2LE2i. Has anyone figured .how nuch of a staff ali of, it3 comitteeJ, ot catam*. that a saf aty onginee / ` V ' ** . " , %* ,, * h . v^ , . la;.ssi=s_.-w barer. . *.* **.* *` *.# " .*.. ,, . * , I*.' , * ^- * _____ * *.* ?>>;; ii *.. . * " * . .* * '* . ..: RCdE; ... That , has- hean covered,. . * . , I do not knaw , < , vhcther you vere upstairs there & little vhilo ago orhon ve * "i . - ' * eoverod that natter, and la fact, sa have even Increased it ' . j considerably* ._ . ' . ' * ' - . : | HR* GHSETLE3D: Zt looho to no that vith a force of ' 1 torcuty' thousand nen, ere aro go lag to hare at our yard prob ably tuo or three hundred instead of the relatively feu 'that' * you had up at the other nesting* '* . ,. .I . | ' CEAX7IIAH ROCES: TTe 'have cut the ninimua to three thous and, and for an aoaiatant safety director, and for eaoh ! 1 thousand thereafter, there, ahaald bo .one additional* .' . ' j I , .US*. GRSE3LZ2: . Shat do*eff not coTer all of these cocsitte nen? ' . . .. . . " ' ' CHAHSA2 RCCHS: _.2hoac are entirely separate* SR- QR2EILZ2: ?ha oafoty engineer appointed in consults , . ', tion pith the heads of tha dopartaent? . . - .,. . . '' " ' ' * * ' .* . *. -- --: 'GEAXriiAIZ R0CE2: _ Those aro separate* ' **' . , SR*--SUHAH:. `.'Sou have 00 nany eouaittcea you have alroad. ... . ' i ' pointed out;tho oafoty director only has tventy-four hours to ' ..V; ' " . ` ` j Paririzu. He pill spend an entire- day to- Just hoop up rith ; tho eoreatttofla. X thlTib ynn hmrrv tnn nevy onrsn-tttn<Mi-v------------j- SB*- GRdHdSr. Ey the nastar neecchhjania* v`./:/ .;. : = ATffTAJi BCSSS:; I, ho in your crafts- eomittee. - * V' .*."%< f j. ...-i*..-.**w.**-.:-/r...;.' ' **5.^ * -. .da.you.,got.yotcr'.tallara inrpoorted? . _ .  ........................ ................... ..218 | .. I HE* GRAHAH:- He- do~not happon..to-.hare any boiler's in- ' opectod by anybody, except the Haritine- - ................. - ' . CHAIR2AH ROCEE: Holl, what about the rigging? j * ** ` HR. -GRAHAH: That la checied by the carpenters. \ 1 *1 . .CHAIR2A3 ROCHE: * Than the carpenters do the inspection. ; . HR* GRAHAH: Hell, we inspect it and they correct it. - ' * .1 . . CHAIRSA5 ROCHE: It is perfectly all right if you went : * / | t. o tahe throe* or foui r of your aen and nahe' staging inspectors ' out of then* . <> i | ...HR* GRAHAH: Holl, that is part of their duties-* . ' CHATRHAH RGCE2: Do you hare then all on hulls? % HR* GRAEAS: All of tho hnll3 are cowered* . '. ' ' C2AIE2AH ROCHE: To.u.do not hare any stagings in the ! '*..*** ;shopT. ^ . .. V `v " ' * '- . _ . `. HR. GRAHAH: She non in the- chop also worh on-tho hulls, . 1" -- -. . . . > ; end they hare to be able'to worh anywhere* .. ' - . C5AIHHAH ROCHS: Tho point I noha is thin:- That you de .sot need. to.call then safety .engineers. - Tou can hawo nen out .***. * ** '.of' the .riggors, and/or aen out- a* hm * cut of.- any. oil. the. nhepa j.. ;car hous eheeping eonnitteea* .U;..-* -S-- . . . . gRAHAg; ,'.5en*t ynu.-.thlnh, the Central Coisnittco and ^' .,* * * , v ..<:. . ' , t * * ** .......*....... - " ho, ouporrisors connittaa. thar Xabor-nanageaent eonnittac t **/*:* -r - . m..sufficient? . .. *k ' *k .** ^ * ' ; -------- . - . * ' ' : ' ' m * '* f * ' . .C2AIRHAH ECCHH; ''PoyZ do eata* and neither dooa thin. . :;v^-`:;4V;*V:;.-. Jiy. - . I ' . rI ; '[ .comiitteo that noV-la Chicags^- 1au>oaeed" t'*he' a.d...d...i.t..iona"l sen I ,.k .______ ____------------------------------- ....................219. uho are Baking- inspections of their own Jobs, Tor orasple, ono oofoty engineer on th.o-.imll cannot hoop the hull in good .* * condition, not eren on a Victory chip, and you are making biggor chips than that In'none of these yards, I hare Been that bo many tines whore you get a condition corrected in on. ', # epot and you walk down'the line and correct soae place else,' .` ' | and by the tine you return th' ere are three or four ether .i i places for you to correct. So, he does need sone help,' All. | . of this .13 educational, v ;j i . . .1 -think.IT you put a nan on an inspection ccnmittee, you util sake a convert of hia, ' If you do 'not believe that, try. ... - - ` It with ecus cf your tough nuts aoaetines, ?hese arc n* . * . . ' . tional eonaittcea,-. ` Tou get oone good out of then, it j oduea_ . ; is truh: : " * ......... ' .' ' i :-but*` get .conditions, and practices discovered and corrected, ; .-.but'-ton biggest thing you'are doing is soiling then on safety, ..If'.thoy .-report a,nan for act -gearing a hard hat, or not - . * , r* . v *^ * r. -. . * * . 'I * ` x' . ** . . ** * .j ' uoaring goggles, .or .not using'the proper ventilating equipment */-* * ' ; ** .*,.** * ** ****** * ` ***.* *. .1 'j ; or putting up' offoctivo stagings, or uhat havo you, they'aro ^ . `i ' ' rat going.tflL:da_that; tfrpns nlJLag^:_Atlleast not for a uoe> or ' * *T- .*.* y. ;*.? ~ -I K n progrxi .that X havo evur conducted, or operated, ' w *---^ ----------+ r+`f\+"; v. -i* ^ _. rn <fc 4 I M J ' i _ " ...................... _ ________________ . __________ ' Z2A and-tho-toughest-cases > that wo- ever had,-the* follows who wduld not woar- goggles, the-aen who would not use guards % 9 with which to protect. themselves, were Christiana after a little serrice on a safety comnittoe* ._ How, you can lump all of these, and call then house- * . . heaping conalttoes, If you want to* These sre alnlaua re- quiranents, hut you ars oortainly going to need Inspection ; i| ! i ! ef cranes, hollars, and continuous Inspection-of staging* * # .` 1 i Thera in -not a yard I visited that did not have staging .' ' * inspectors, not one, and nost of thoa were staging nen, or j Ii1 ' * staging directors* -. *...' ' - ' ,' .I .| c 'Arc there any..core cocaenta on that, particular section?- \. . ' V -I ,,HH* .* In .loo-1^3 crop thia, it seems lit a a ,, . . * . ! . i di^licaiion hero on. the central conaittae and the axrocr- ' ' - a * *: . * :. J viaory conaittoc af your lead omen, quarteman, forenan, i ' :" . *. ! ,-et cetera*, ,0a the central connitteq, or the policy conai.ttae ..should ha. tho nar.ngoacnt, tho safety director, the ne-dicol *- * '**- *' . \* . .. * \ * \ 4 : representative, and tho nuperintondat that ;. ' * . : '' . ` * covers * * . !I every one' ' i your divialoeg cr crafts in your yard* They are the pcopl ' >- . -who 'would naturally fora..tha poliaics. of tho safety, aannd when 14 ' ' *i ^. * v. K . . , 4-. P4 *. : *h- ^ .' /--.f* .** ,**^ .l **.* `* s%-. . v>" **.,*,*..,.*.*, * . .. . . A*, 'f " -yqujcuse to yqur.fluaorviscry coanittces with your safety J .. . ^. - * i. --\M ' ; *- : ' l ./,/ directors, yotar foreaca, n?><3 your cusorintendonts, who ars ! > " '* * 1*. e . , , * . * * r.. w * * . _, _ * .v.-- -*- ! ,ij>,S^.a^cx7i3ors.._affKthat. uha'undor thca cone tho leodoraan ; - : . * ii'-fFr .?wnrtora*m^T7ho..thsy dlraet^. and. then, conea tho. safety . ^ *t * * *../ . * * * * *.* * * " ^.general.';oo32dtour.'which, is a., cagalttoc. froa every, craft in i . ` ^ ***.*.-. *' - . *4-'4 v T * *. . ' * * * `' * ; * 221 tho yard .who .aeetsand th.ty.ar9 all polled,, and % all of thel. ouggestions -are . .J brought-to-your \" * central * o*ooattt*ee who act. a upon then, or the supervlaory committee who acts on then, an- then In our ease with- thirty safety Inspectors, It does not seem-lihe-they haTe a thing to do.---------- \ CHAIHUAK ROCHE: Hho does not have anything to do, the oafoty director? . ' HR* HHIT2: Ho, because everything la dene for him. . CfTATTfiSAfl ROCHE: Hell, & good safety engineer worha tha* tray# Let `me say thin: Perhaps tre should specify the sine of the .eontral eonnittee. That is a small committee, hut wit cur present system of. labor management operation, tre should have representation on any policy-forming groups affeotlng- the welfare and`the activities of the men In the yard, and that Is what I say a representation from your various ouper- risory jgroupa, er supervisors,`and your, labor, and one from the employees* -X would bo satisfied, if you would, they would Slave two* superint endonto, one foreaan, one medical department representative, ona quarteraanr. one leadorman and onn anplsjaat pSH jnnr Trwr>gnwtatlTa, your Safet :-*V . \ * *?* * .* . \ ,t.: ** * . director, end your secretary, which In plant for a policy- forming groups' ` `* :* . . "' ' 7-.ME.. HEIX3: The only troubla about quarto men. and Is ad err *- *J* -* * *, ' % * * *. * ** * * sort,: Is ? you.'taho thorn out ef tho boiler shop, they are not t .* interested la- p^'ythirtg -also*. ..X tLinhtho four suporiutendon^ :l - . ' ok ( .t .'................. .. .. 222 i " should "bo on there* -- .. . CHAIRHAH HOCHZ: . ' . That-la ** ' .-*--..................................... I all right, to put the ** . . four I * '* I ! 1 superintendents on there, or whatever It la* j HR* `ffHITE: If,you plot a quartersan out of the air who' i happens to he In the-ho41er shop, and who is not Interest in' '' .I hull construction, or anything else, he is of little value to . ' ` us la the general advisory end ef it* ' '! ! ' i CHAUMAH ROCHE*. However, you do get valuable represeata- . i tion for that ccnalttce, whether he has the overall picture or I not*. At least, his group, the leaderaan. Is being represented on that co'aaittee* Ton do not aspect that eaoh and. every -j individual on hero is going to have the sane intense interest; i | , in safety problems that you ara going to have, but at least, -: k '. * . ** - % .i j you. ara getting tho viewpoints of the representative leader* nen on this question of policy that will be raised for this jj ecssaittee* And tho'y are tha nen in general who will have to ,* * * ... #* . enfeswa.these rulo'a \ and they'should have representation on this "eossittoe* . ***'- -* >> **-.*'. * .* * ** . . . * *-# * ` ` .*"'** . 'V- ` Sow, getting down to your* supervisors' .- `" coanittee, that, . . * . i j * I - - . :^*w* * c*. * *1 axsrthi^ _ * . ./-* **> anS~2gain the a in a snot" ` .* i ef the difforencea j 'l differences in nunbera and '. . . ' * - ' 1. _ . loademca in one yard and .**'*-' '* /'* ' - :r * : '*. - V'V - **\ | ' *, X .. ..-IT .. ' '/ . * * ' tv. * * .* ' ' V * . " - *. * * ; It.proposed that these special loop cetera; .. .3>>-..7" /. * ** ^ ** * ' *V .. r` '* , '* ' - ii 8 be paid as special Inspectors, or are they esplo'yees froa ti i rarloua departaents? CHAIR2AH ROCKS: It depends on the yard. In sone yards ** . * . the oafety departaent has the departaent, and In other yards * , * ( they work. for the particular departaent In which they ars in ejecting, That la left up to the yard . HR* GRAHAM: Are their duties or responsibilities con- : fined to that of inspecting? '. , t . ; CHAIRHAJT ROCKS: Sot necessarily, as It nay be a part- j .* .. *' * '* . I S tine Job*' . A woekly inspection of a crane, where there are * . *. .1 only two cranes in a yard, lxr not going to take a week, In ' . * .* ,i l .ether words, they ora Inspectors so long as thoy are working. ' '' j f.. a inspection. After that j thoy go bach to staging or rig- \ ** * ',*.'** Slag, cr whatever thoy aro doing** ` ** ` * * . * *. .* * * ** t% ` *- ' * . v ,^HR* GRAEL52I:; In .pone yards they '. ' '* are ' - on the *. payroll , of i `/flonethlng' else?' ... ' . . ^../CEAIHgAS ROCKS: .Too,-.that la true. They hare taken ' Bone of tho stage riggers -who arc qnalif lod uen to cake " stags Inspectors, and that is all thoy do all the tine ..?aragrspk~l~.undcr tdutlos.'> on .Page 7, InspeotorSy'you state hero that .staging inspectors ' V. *' V'yrV-**"'*" i' .** .'*** '"*+ N< ' - 1 :* % chnll, report oil. dsfoota' to tho rlggor feranan f`or I'naed' iato v.- y <- *.. . ,'v .v- .. riggor forenatt has s'.V'V . \ 1 i_* %%. ** ** N .b * ;! ;..'.'r;-.. .. TTky not oaks It Sta^* * * t- .. ,p . - * - * * . **. ... :*. . - * % . *. 99 4 22* _ CSAXH3U3 RQC2LS:..-That ic .all right*. X could suggest ** * \ /. . you aako it. the *?roper Foreman,9 'because there is a differ . once there. Or you can nahe it 9Becpon3iblc Foreman. * 7. ' ,,. . '* . . will change that froa Rlgsirg Foreman8 to "Responsible Fere ** * *. * * * j *! nan.9 There is a difference in authority. j H. I -ikat a*Conaitteeo in addition to those specified in these * *'.'* ' ' 'i * i* standards, nay he formed and operated if desired. n * *% * .* ` * -j .t r. fionehody a few nonenta ago said that that is a lot of ' conaittees to have, hut you should aee the number of con- I ' .' ' * nittees that they`have in Done yards. Every craft has a i j ' coanittoe on each shift. I have seen as aany as thirty in ` ' . . i flono yards. -It soess to so all they do is have aeetings, but .i ' if they help your safety program that is fine. There is no ; ' *- # . * * ) question hut a certain anount of It does help come eosait- i I',, toes. , . ' | ;`.b. ,, Representatives on all cosnittees, when of a supe: .i visory status, should be appointed by the shipyard general"" manager and held responsible by Mn for. active and inter* .. anted'participation in the work erf the conaittee. Eanloyee ; H ' ............ r v- * j i- *| ' ;J *..Fcpresent&tiqa nay boa ocured in .the sane manner, or by --: jw| I."1--*"` ' . " ~v -.V VV4.r.ff' ;.t seosupqolianttaacoggfct-. iorTf*. BosJsalbavyoo*e. comitts os, union ns.hVormo stewards ; - ' : o--r Ytry? *.' "^7 nstioa isabers or by any other feasible neanru 'V'-;---' _ - . .... T. . . -f*1*. services of production onplcyces haring related " * * C *' * .'*** * * V ''*t /.. ^ 'll ^ *" * * ^ .* .v ,'Sstiea cay-be taken advantage of on inspection: ccnnitteos. ' * M < /VX _ _____ .... ? r;-r if. /.:?iv-x.-t- *' t-vt --. _ '*! * 1 * *-. tinuoua..staging-inspectors, * ana or. sea froa the ventila tion crew nay be utilised for. checking on ventilation prac tices* The reports, of state or insnrance inspectors will * * * .i - ' ` be-considered adequate on boilers, air conpressors and re ceivers, or on other pressure Teasels* . ...... ,* ; la the Century Rooa yon will find an exhibit of nateri- als on the board fron the national Safety Council,. Those of yon who are publishing house organs oan get fro a the Hationa? Safety Council a conoidorable anount of naterial .without cos', that can be used In your nagaainea. They include aata, cer tain -posters which are available that are -appropriate. ' That ' one you cce on the wall, whllo not suitable for your naga- * x sino, if any of you want copies of that, let ae have your - noses and addresses, and I will see that you get as uany as you want, without charge. `* _ '... dlflo, these of you who arc operating in a eountry where! -there.Is a anew condition in the wintertime, we will give you :.all of .the. posters you need on driving safely with'snow on . ' ...the ground. . Those of you operating car pools, where there Jiiwa.uk...tho^grpunE, will ba_ given a sufficient number ef. . ..Tbowileto,'four-page .leaflota, for your ennloyecs, rtefes for : .' `- i*' *' *- * ' ;.asto pools .is.the- winter0 j, ,j . `. ; That in not the exact title, but is illustrated on. the beard, plus a lot of other things. ' ^v^r^^' S^w .uaBt anything, lot ce inow* ' There imrt any . > .-charge for any "of* thou, and iiLyou select. sees on which there . .v,. . 24k 226 : la a charger I-will let.you know how- such It la, j . Tito tine for-the-safety training of an employee to start .' i la at the lncoptlon of his employment, After a physical ex amination, which should be made to sake certain that the era *i J ployee is physically canable of performing safely the work ' * . ' . 'i , ho ifl requesting, thegan shall hare explained to hin the ' *I safety policy of the company by a representative ef the * : \i safety department, This say be done Individually, In genera . H... groups or in craft groups and the Instruction nay be sup- ; " ^ *| plesented by printed instructions in the form of rule books . 4^ i er instructioncards, ` ; . - . '! ....* .HH, JACI VOL77: Hay'I say there that I have listened in on several instruction programs that cere given by a member 1 ' ' '| of tho safety department, and in principle, .they were doing j the right thing, but it tras not'being done in the right way, It was not very offootive, 7or example, a groat many nationaT statistics were thrown at the .new people coming in, and - . ; reference was na&o that tho hold could be filled with de- 1 -e-flp4Aatrad-bod-lgfl, and eat aff-wma nnd--hart day..ig-tha-en urs-e- . of a .year, rlnd X <raestioned;* whether it did very much, good* .-Consequently,- X-cnould.suggest that every cofoty engineer go * ' '"* * .'.farther than,. jnat to an sums, because a oafety man in giving tha-'instructionn .to the new mam, that `it is being done in a way that will bo effective-with that now r_in. . v* . _ ,, '*:** V*-> * ' . . ' * ' ** , '^ * .GSAUt3A3 EDCHSi' .Ihat is a good point, and that brings 22 7 \ up a-beoutiful opportunity-to-toll you thin: - I would lihe to toll you of Jach-Holff To. trori.which he bpcfce about this , corning* It will be his Job to assist in developing ouch. '. preliminary inspeetion Instructions for your nen* It uill ' i ! i ! I !; * bo hie Job to correlate all safety training and to elaborate I . on any phase of it with you follows.- That does not nean tha it is going to be conpuloory, of course* . His program will be so prepared oo that it uill fit your particular yard, and it uill be nade at your request. *. .' ': % heard that talfr on the decapitated eras and legs, and j i it Is net a Tory good one, and certainly a weldor is' not very .. i such interested in national statistics, ' - .* sore specific'instructions. ` ffhat'he needs is ' . ; i . . . 6.3 Eaployeeo shall have in thoir possession, and be i instructed in.the p*ro*per use of, oil necessary ... ^ p* ersonal ** . protective equipnent before boing started on any Job. *. .: 6.S Senoral safety rule boohs, craft safety rule boeis "or`safety instruction cards any snd.shouHbe supplied ee . plo7oo. Such booia ohould be coaciso but eonplate enough . tjj -!i^ n-rn'XT ' saf Cty rules* Ho ` * "* t '**.' ':*** **.;r* * ' * *-. . '* . rale .ahnli..bajingludcd which'will mat be strietly enforced. - f.t *. ..The asaifftanc of TJ. ^ _ITaY7-3aritiae Ccnnisoierr safety on- '* ' ' *.- * * . .. ^. * . .. r * * * * *.*** a **; -* .. giseers uill be given. La the .preparation, of ouch. rule boeto * . * , * * j?. ir.aoctaa.^ "< * * t. , *w, * .- * . a v ** . .-Thsm .aro: a cyornX.ywry good.aeta of. boo!is and'in ' ,,mW " 228 cards . availablo** -Ono- of.the .'beet. X hare- sea w&a developed ' by Trank Johnson-In Oregon, utilising a-lot of cartons, but 1 - i specifio craft construction* Instead of a "let of hurrah in ! ' . ` j tho boohs that lead the fellows to throw the boohsaway, ho ; hrm really given thea something* .. . .! * -! 6*4 All ecployeea shall beInstructed la theirspecific * i .duties by their iaaediate supervisor and they shall be n&de faslllar with the hazards of the Job and Instructed care-- fully. In how to avoid.then* It shall further be the duty ' .* * * of the supervisor to constantly check nil ecployeea so ua- * . safe working practices nay be corrected beforev accidents occur* . . . . There is certainly nothing new about that* That should . nvo been done for years* , .If you talk to the aTerage super** .H **. `- ^ ^ _ vincr, he will tell you that he Is doing that, again that is where Jack tfolff fs program cones lh, and the JIT . i r .*** % - * . .training prograa eocca In* That is tho Job Instruction train ` tag. Bo, training nethods In industry generally, as well as . ^ . la shipyards,-have Improved considerably ever the past year* : Safoty^instruction shall be correlated with all apprentice end crafty training schools* Saf oty instruction w : in mush schools or training coaroos shall Include, an an*- ,, .* . f QX * 4* .. . . planation. and demonstration/the need, for tho safety equip** ' *. ; . \ j I \ nont or safe practices cuecifiod and' tho st trict enforcement #** * * v /* * ..... . * . *.. ' of all safoty roquirenento In tho classes*. The Instructors : i 229 ohall, by their own exampleirrpreas upon tho learners tho isportanoe of the.eafoty requirements. `* . - ! i * 6,6 Safety bulletin boards ohall bo located at oach hull *. ** .. * ' and shop.,, and at such other locations where they any be do- ' simble, on which safety posters, letters or bulletins froo ' . . .' i tha shipyard canagcaent- or safety dopartaent, and other safety naterial aay be posted, ` .' . ; 6*61 The bulletin boards ohall be located where the ,, . '* * najority of the employees at a particular location will see .. . ' then, V .-**.". ** . ' ii t J 1 j . *. * 6,62 5hc bulletin boards shall be well constructed, .; * a loohed glass cover and ohall be lighted at night. ' \. ' .. _ .. , i hare ') j i ./ ',f.S.S3 Safety posters and othor caterlal on bulletin ...* . . , *, boards shall bo changed at least seai-obnthly or sore often.! .-(Posters will be uado -available by'the n,S, Eavy-liaritlne i Coiaaission for the uao of shipyards*' However, posters nay' i V - % ',.** * 1 . . ,1 ... * .1 \ - : -1 ' be selected by the shipyard safety departaont froa any source.) arc Going to try to got you specific pootars. Is tSmro. anyj objection to that- *aoai-soatM y * ehn-rgoT-- ' V-': -' , . ally, X .would; IsdTe'nins up such loss'than that. I would ; - *'m. .*. . . . .* * .* * . *, -* _` " ^ . . .m . . , . . < k* . .** ..' .. 7 ' ^ .".'say that you should' chrmgo, thoa rare*often, 'but with cur < proses^ aot-up,` it' in practically inpoaolhlo to do anything 1 U'.v *- ; butter. C Them is a Innlt cf applicable pastors,,and thorn arc v , . , . - hot enough, good onoa-'tc'so'aruund, and w<j hsrnc to supply " : ' the co. j-..''/'*'-- ''j'c.'.-' <i >' : '* */ ' ' j 230 ' . LOU DSSJARDI3ZS: -We have our own artist, nr<! v mala ,,it a practice to hare our B&vy yards display poatera of * *' . . ' $ _ ooac specific action. .... . ' * I , CHAIPHAB ROCKS: That is exactly what we are going to do in this oet-up. . 0 ' ; * *\ I2R. KsSDALL: 'Will you ash the group how many ars using '/ ,* Junbo posters? I aa referring to the 'billboard sine, l : 'CHAXRIH3 RQCH2: Thsro are about a do sen using theca* We ore going to try to produce Bone poatera worth whils, but* ' .' we hare not had any good ones lately. * `, non to boreden. - .* #' . i We have inspired the ! . - i I ' *. S.7 Where ohipyard house organa (nagaxinee or newo- : ' N papers) aro established, (it is recommended that they be _ ' established in all yards having 5,C00 or sore employees,) ; .* *. * ." ' i-' '' -_ j | - the safety dimeter shall arrange to havo a reasonable pro- i j portion or* the space devoted to safety (articles, items" { v' -- < `.v--,. -I and cartoon crata relating to safety will be n&de available S* j by W._S.-UaV7*tIaritiaa Commission safety engineers.) ~; . - ;.... .. ." _ . Cow, please do rt ash us for any until after tho. first yesrlv;.Thn7p^Ii3ity:ia7i3'ign'^~tfgrhi^ en then now;;' ...xY^ ' v-i- - >* ^. | `/and la. tho Eceantihe wo will have this, stuff that I told - you ; 1 V. :t... . *' * ' j [ v about upstairs,. .. *v. f> j . . * . 'y\ i * --.` r **.*. , i - * j' .. > !::* Sound, film btrips and notion pictures on oaf aty - - '.` i '*.. ^'= ." . ..-P.v cuajects- should be/used whgrn^pgnatleabla> Public addrwoa : ; ; /..''`aystozssp. whom* instailed * may .bo used for safety neaongos to . . `. t ...* .** ' ' .... . . 231 ; *. I to shipyard employees especially during lunch ho urn or at . ' shift changes* .. ' 1 i ; -Soae "of those public address eye tens are being used to . tct7 good advantage* * .J *i it 7*1 A safety supply sto shall be established in each i i!' shipyard where safety shoos, safety hats', protective impact . goggles and tinted welding goggles shall be Bade available ' to shipyard worhsrs* Shoes nay be sold at or near cost to ' employees but safety hats and impact and tinted goggles a hall "* , 'I * ' be issued to each employee but shall remain the uroperty of i : ' * ! * %- * J the company to be returned whoa the employee ends his es- ' >I ployaent* Equipment ouch as trorh clothes, gloves, welders c ** * ** * * helmets, say also be stoched and sold to esroloyaec if de- ' ' N* sired*. " .. v . *` ' O'.' . : *i . . I J *' . , : | '` **. % * . * *-11. Seggles say bo qtochod in the central tool roon or *^ '*.**' "* 'first aid department- but should be fitted as* described in . ; T. * i . * .* f . * . paragraph 7*5 following* ; ' ' t . ` ECU- Z3bLL: Tou`flay'thero x-.n " 1: * "shall8* Eou cay, ' 1 M. safety-supply otoro shall bo established. * Hens, it is ay ******* * ** , * iapyatrflinn V > 1 *>'., -y*y.bnv n.jVfe. dt.at.A^r'T.n w^ ' v* -*-* . . * i,by`tha-3hritiae-Soisai33ioa''thai you shall not have the stores r,v*-vV." * ' *' : j- uithia the confines- of a Saritina Ccsaission yard* ',/ ''^ea&ZZZUS. E5XS2r'! "And I have boon definitely instructed :v! - to ^lncludg thin. by .the ^Ccstaiooisa*, * *. *t-f. it . ' *^;,\,,7.7 . .*%*. *, -.*a*'*/f***'*'*' * ... * K- *.v^ " ..'.v-. ;. . ` ' v 1 . ` " *** *'*** * * * * * to got' it? - * ** : ** * t*, t -, ' /-> !I . j i i ! I 12 ( . ...... 232 .. CRAZK3M ROCKS: -ffe hope so. It- la a tough thins to - haro your nan haying shoes froa Glncburg, and Klein, and Bulcahey, and then cone In with every poaoihle hind of equinnont at a variety'of pricec. . ; HEU" XODALL: Along the sane line s-^we. have found that . r v ;* unless you can soil safety shoes on a payroll deduction has is 70U do not sell the shoes. At least, you do not cell very tany of then, TThat can ho done along that line? *V . CHAIRHAH RCCHE: That is a law-that would require an Act of Congress to change, I oynpathiae with you, hut I do not hnow what you can do about that, ` . HR. 7RAZISR: I hog to differ with you. In our ship . * yards wo sell all we can get, and the non cone in and pay % * % cash for thaa, there is no payroll deduction* The cash ^ * , ia put on the barrel head,-and thoy get the shoes',"and I ha? >* cold ao naay as a thousand dollarc * worth 'a day, s"-.-. CSAXR2AH JCH3: ** * * k * * *. , * , * * goncral orpcrionco*. That is right, * i , *, . . ' *' and that oeena to he't- " ' * . * * - ' . /HR* GWHSr I would liho to propose a problea hero, 1 '.-'flay flafoty.enpfl, and 'inpaet 'nsA tinted goggles shall be- Isac ! i-*Vt: ' * >m .. ' :' v: to' aaoh. enplayua, bat- shall reaain the property of the coo : ` ' jji* '`l-j ; . 7 o.bo; rotomed whoa tha esployce ends- his onplcynant* - \ lp>wo hara eight thousand asa In.tha yard at tha proses a ' .. J. .w-- . ; i.. . . *?. ;hl23* wot.'hsnru yot to iocuo a safety hat er goggle tea* v*.. "*\| ' ..* .* /. . * ' - , -`.rcssLined tha prwowrty of-tho coapasy*. ITo hara sold the t **>! ** '* ,, *t . ^ ,, '.***i ^?*.^- % 4 *%4 ** ^ *., *4 ,r * . *. * *t , . 2c the sen the-sane as we did..the ohoeo. X\on, IT we start r j la suing thes e hats, than w hare got to oonsldcr the con problen that will confront us oT najor proportion. There fore, I doubt *rery such If It 1b feasible for ua to adopt any ouch plan. I-thinh It was you who suggested this nor 4 ,, lag the oain difficulty with this* It is true thatjrou 1 the hats on a tool' choch, and when the man quits, he has : the tool chech and lost the hat, and he pays you for the t and goes on* . So why not sell It to hln in the first place? I oay that, especially in rlew of the fact that you night hare a ** * *" \ *i Tery ' difficult problen on your hands of -sorale in Sew Torh. . # How, that to tay'nind is & question that sonebody is . going to hare to answer for no, bcoanse X cannot answer it -.r .'*.: . .* . aywolf* . ' ------h-------*_ . CHATKiAIZ RCCHS: 111 right, let us hare sone other discuss ton. on that**' .** *' '*'; t * *SFU* conifer Let him but "It, or not*, as he 'pleas ea7~* *_ ' . .* .* (Off the record.) . -* . * .. Vv;;'*-'-Is rcgard' to paragraph 7.1, X do hot **** ' * *i** **% **r 4 * '' 4 '*.'** * * * ' ' the- reference.-In*.there'to the- word ^tinted*'goggles. t * * * CSAXkidH SOCXBl/'1 "have boon loehing far a good none `.Wr... *Cr .:'*, v:'-' sy- hare been abl '*..M* . * * i* .'*<***. *'.*' IL*. >lv* ._ * ' ** 'oro approved*',>V;-'=* ...*.: * * *. t' Z` 4 * I*/* .. / ,, \ Standards that .* * . * .* *.'. - ' ' ` " 234' r * HR. DSSJAHDEjES: Tou couidl call it "absorptive lonaes*. CHAIH-IAR ROCHE: The suggestion has been cade alao that we call It "filtered lenses0, . ' . ..ECU WHITS: Xou do not scan the conbination of the two impacted and tinted?' _ ' , CHAIRHA5 ROCHE: `Definitely. `Iapaot and tlntedv Thoy practically all hare then* .\ . HR. DHITE: I .aa roainded that at night the glasses do not hare to .be tinted for a chipper, does it? '. CHATTYAH ROCHE: Ea should hare thea tinted, if he is ' ** % * > * '1 uprising in elooe prpslalty to any welding operation. I thin we ean solve thio problca by taking out the word "shall", ar ` * . . . # .. ** ^ putting in the word should"* In .thio paragraph, but that ir sot solving the proble3. In ay. opinion, we should nay "shal : 2R.-JCE2DALL:' I would suggest that you ie&vo the word shall" ,in there* I can see your point, but. we are interes . in getting thio equipneat to the aen, and we are not. gettin. * * - *..%.* * **' ' . * 4 ` , ......,...* * ' * our woldors to woar absorptivo or filtered lessee under the (' ' welding hood, because they So not want to buy thea, PdffldRTi: ,...^hat-.we-are, do lng na-a ia cnaobkIint g far a. d& ' -ii- _.I-.- , .. >. . -pealt f01* tho/kaio which'.in' returnable any tine they wish 'V' *, *. * r-. .. V, \ v .. ^.... * .* v . .. . ' ` :*' ,* ..vtoytcmlsato thoir eaploynent, and. if they huvo a second her ' *V * " ***.*,jv. <?*.*V**^.; .* *v;*- Vt*: >*v . * V * ,, *-**1.. *:'.> *v * . ' . ... * ^r.;; . . J- 'kai sivon. to' then, wer Just oharga than one dollar* or `one ^dollar and fifty'.cents* whatevor it is worth aw a deposit. i'V ? . * -- ++ .'* ^ . .*- jp. *. *. sr * *L . ^butlthay got their nosoy bsch * **', t ^ ^ s, * * .*,**. ( * ^ s' ."?*.* *'*. * .. . .... * *j* * *' *.*`/*'*. *'* ~ ^ * * %* *\ '* .. .* ** .*.. . ** * * .. ** * . * * *B  CHAIHU&H R0CE2: There is your answer. I would ouggest that you takea deposit froa then equal to the aaount of the _ `' hat. , * ' '. ' - .! t' * * ' 7.2 The attendant of'the safety store should he shilled ' . \I in fitting safety shoes, and if goggles are also issued, he .* * . r ` should he trained in proper fitting and servicing of goggles, i 8.1 Inpactresistinggoggles of .atype suitable for ' the particular Job and also of a type meeting the require- ' * * * * i aenta of the U*S* Bureau of Standards. shall be worn by every. . i - * | ospl-cyee exposed to the ha sard of eye injuries. Practically; *, ' i every onployee in the shipyard, with the exception of those . * ii working inaidooffices, are either directly exoosed to eye .. ? i j injury fros the work they do, or indirectly through working ; .* *# near operations likely to cause flying objects* w, * '* . 8*2 vExcept whsrc temporary lack of goggles nake it ' * : ' .......... . * .. 'S lnposalble, each saployee shall have his `own pair of goggles* .If It is necessary to reissue goggles to different enployecs, the goggles oust be sterilincd after each use* ' _ 8,5 * Cegglos supplied 'employees should be carefully gtkhad ta thftjy face tajpravegt irritation and' to prerent "v .'.'J-V . fcha''entrance of fareiga. ebjecta around the- c&os. .(See . ,*,V*** * ' **,.,* '<* . * * * ." Jjarasr^ ;< .-;'&*&dlX. employpen working in prcxialty to arc-welding yr ?'&.,v\' ; operations-'ohhll:'bo required, to-wooer, anti* "flash* goggles, o: \* , . ; ,% . * . , * .* \ . v * * . at- Xcairt Ud* shade j.. "tar; cquirnlont)' of a type neeting th requirenents .of the U.S. .Bureau of Standards. (See Section " ' . . i 9.1 on Holding-for Additional Eye Protection for Helders.) : ' . HR* HATE: Thera night he aone question ohade 4 or 5. ` ** - * ' .* I. CHAIR2LAH ROCHE:' Or lto equivalent.. Ton can use letters or nunbors. ' '' : .' ' j- .. HR.' DESJARDIHES: Ho* 3 la very satisfactory, and I be~` ' / ' ' ' . .. Here that Ho. 4cr 5 is rather dense* ` . i > CKAXRHAH ROCHE: I uso Ho. 3 myself, hut this 4 or 5, ! io recomaecdod. hy the APA Standards* ..... . .- '| .j- . HR. PE2JARBIHES: Should you not aention A, B or C? ; ' . CHAIRHAS ROCHE: Or the equivalent* '1 I 'j HR. J0H3SC3: I.'ihinh that *4 or 5 shade* should he j iahen out, because I believe they should go to the A, B, C, j . or mediun or darh* ! .. -- . ./ ;-;v'CEAIH2AS HXBE: ..If you trust me, I ulll put in tho . ** .. ** ..*. . . . proper designation to fit that, and get in iouch nith Hr* * * ' * t * ' Johnson* '.`'V J.-'. ` * **-*',/ . ` % * w. / - * * < '' ' . %i . *j ' ' HR. HKITE: * 'Bid you ever'wear a tintod glass in a tanh j " : ' : . j . chipping at. plght? .' ' ''; ,. ^ . .; UHIEEr-' Ton could not- do it* > . V.!* A* ,*,.'. . , * * fc w *.#*.,.* w . .i%* * .. *. . .*..,' * :.j . . . * , .. ' * * . , j'egAmm pggsi; jJhy-nst?r`S> n . * rr-x., - 1 /. | >'r;4r>7H33*'.:Xga'eassst see*-- That naans that a nan has. }v> IV-.. to havo. too. pairs'of; gogsXsa* 'v V ;v ' 237 CHAIK2AH ROCHSi -Houarer, you-have gat.to protect jeer' ' I chlppcrs against eye flash, whether, you rcsore the weldlrg operations froa Inside the taah .while they are chipping, or whether you supply.then with tinted goggles that protect then * , ' * * . ' You hare a. cholco of the leaser of two erllaj which la it going to he? '' Ton adait there is a problem there? * ' i 5 . HR* TTEXTS: Yea, I do* That neana that thousands of ser 'will haro two pairs of goggles in their pocheta. I night net ho & rery good safety engineer, hut I would newer put a aan ; ' . ' i i . in a tani under any artificial light with a tinted goggle, * , .. i ' because he cannot see. - .- i * . v* l . HR#^ BSSJARD33ZS: I hare not had any experience on that!, ( ' ** ,* ' .` . * * * :* ' ... I HR* FRAZI2R: He hare had trouble at tinea on that, wher nan eocplain that they cannot coo, and we issue then clear ' . lenses, and. thoy wort satisfactorily* In fact, the clear - * " . I Ions is .opprozinately aa protective from eye-flash as is your - - ' ' ' . -"' j tinted goggle's* . -'He hare records to'proYo that on certain '' " . . . . . - .i things*. Thoro is a. ais cone option, I holiere, so far as your *., .* * ' ,' ti tinted goggles, arc concerned* Ho wort on the theory that if! 9 ... you haYo^a_ahndu it;will.protect you,, and uwith your expert- . ..eneo la;welding,' X. holiere you will find the eurred lens, i -f' ?'*;">: %::.y * ' . - .1 . -.crca-in..thu.dear,....will.'also' cut down your rayh, .and you can r / ** - ** ... hncone iaoae at tinea arer* a curtain period of tine to eye | s. -. . .. - . V.- t* . flash.' rays*; 1. 'v'/*-.*' ': ** ; " .. . ! - - .,^ic-iJ-u.That. i tha; reason these 3011 visit the first aid station '. ' / T" * ' r.*V ' ' ............,______ __________ ......................... ...................... -238. % l They got the ciaconcept-ioa-ihat-,if you do-not-hare a green i * '. t '. goggle, you have got a flash, burn, and I believe the answer J- to that is, 'whether it be tinted or othemioe, that you do - . receive great benefits froa you plain lenses, but it snot .- ` ' ' `;be of a Qurred'.nature* A flat lens will not protect you, i ' 1 i j i CHAU3UH ROCHS: indicate that, . .. The data tre ... * hare . accumulated '. . dooa not' * * ' ( ; < . JUL 3072AK: It night be that the nen who are given these goggles are sore apt."to wear the clear lenses, because they ; . i are not aa heavy as the .tinted ones, . . _ . j` .. CHAXnSAS HOCHZ: 7hat do 70U reeoaaend? * ,, . . HR*. BOUHAH: . So* 2. X do not hare any reason for it, ." * * ' ' ' " ''That type cf glass is very light, .; ;* HE,. P...7ALL: Xcu ham only tuo rays of light that : ; j j ! yen have, to eontond with, phi oh is. infra red and ultra violet, * ** '' . , 'I 13 . Ton: can* cut .out pith clear glass oil of your ultra violet, but - ` . ?*' cat -infra rcd,7?h.ickrun3_45 per cant cf your-bums. So, you j.Tscuid: say ..about :5S per cent of your chance ia cut doun trith | 'a clear goggle,.. . j ul.Vh:rAR.-BgCSSs..^ Xh.i3_rae .there ia oone protection | * *, ` '' -dl v\Giron;byh clear glhagy ;:buV;.lt. jg.'trua that no havo had eye j r"- - * . . .... . .j flaahr'-'Grithl elans- '^Inha . co'g.rgleg being pom. Ton do not cut ! * i r*. 7*V * *- *.*`-*i l r,. ' V .*'**;*, * 4* ,* * #' - - `- . ** ** ** * . ** *'. ` I j .. ..'.bst.-caffiaiprh for Is2&.,espatr8rc to give. ade<tuatc protection, # V /ir. '7 j * -H. 7 UzziL X -]holl'rrg- xre .shauXih. s>.-. crc` record as reconaecding either 5 ;V : .'*'* ' i vfVgagSlsgl'car.magving.;thgr.-vulil!ng.opemtian. uhoru uhea sonebedy * .J: . ....... . : 233 who la exposed -^ho does not hare adequate protection- If 'jz'z do not agree with tho prorision here,.wo will hare to hare : . *- ,^ t ~* .I acne solution, and cone practical, usable oolutlon that will' *m * giro protection to the eeployees, and certainly assist in j * ' erery way so as to not atop production. > # * ># . ! ' * ' HR- FRAZ1ZR: Do you neanhy that, notdesignating 'i either tinted or clear, hut that either will he satisfactory? 0 CHAXRHAIf ROCKS: Ho, *slr. He are designating tinted- HR. T7HITS: Ton cannot wear tintedglasses at night, . ' ` ' .* . CKAIKHAH ROCKS: He haTs only-had two people who hare * ,* \ ' .raised ehjeotlona to it. .. ' . j i HR. J0E3B0K: I heliore that a lot of the eye flash ' can. he orercone hy using clear goggles at night, and oida ;V . . . - .' jf shields, and-enforcing the rule on welding shields. You do .not need. to hare It any "bigger than two .pieces of paper to do it. , :_ ** '* . * *. CKiilK^AH' ROCKS: . Possibly we should put in another para ' ^ *'-..* * * * -T *. , '. . graph hiere on ahlolds, on the use of welding ohieldn. - HR. CERhSLfiH: Hcwld anybody liha to aahe & suggestion. oa: . .;:..to .the.type of welding ocroea that should he uaed, whether s'-vf should; fc*' throe-aided; with a'hood,. oorr notT -a. .7- IS;'" '. CHURUdS- SSCKZl: He ham a one in there. *v "S .V.. i-:.V- _ r \m` *. ,* /'**,- . - / ' 2L.Y* AA*?n? rwrpeOldro>r--rs? ' roj ha7l"l?, "hhon nada faailiar with tha- hararda * erv% ,h\s' thoir~worir'. and' they should ho instructed In safe methods ' ' .^:.r ' . ... ` .................. am i 58 V* . ........-/ ftflfllgsod* -- _ . --------------- v ...... . 240 ; _ ' 9*2 Personal protective equipaent used by welders shall ' include: . . .: . . . i .! .............. '' . i 9*21 Haiders* protective hood provided with, the proper* * , .. . . * i shad of 'tinted glass for protection against the hamful rays ,,* . *i of the arc and a olear oover glass to pro.teot the shaded ^ * glass. * * . * '' . . ' i. / : i * 'i ! a. The Qhades or their e<juivalent, recommended are: ` ; Up to 50 50 to 75 J&spereo - Ho* 6-7 Shade dsperes - Ho.' 8 ` Shade 75 to 200 Aapereo - Ho* 10 Shade 200 to 400 .Over 400 inpereo -- Ho,* 13 *" . Ac^eroo - Ho, 14 Shade Shade .-* ` b* Shades, nay also' be selected froa the following table: - : '' . * * * u T*** * . * . t ' '. . Uelding Glass . - Pod Dianater "*** ** . ., " . ' ` *' * '* *' Shade Ho. ' ' V ' . - ...**. . 10 . . - v Zfjss * . i . * ** ~* ...-.~. * T-.T, * . * #..\;* t4rt- ... *V J , |1 * . ' h* .v~ ***> .* . . + n. *.** ...v.,,..... . .* '* - j-. .. . ' .;. .* ; * *: ! u, V . > . 10 -10- -.10 v* .* - : " * * ' ,V.S/1.. . *. . - \ ***'.*- V* `T* * ** * v; . * : .15 ; is- . " 12 1 . ' Z/3 ' ' .v ; -v ..... v /f l- . i4 . id --i- ( u93c _ ____________________ _________ ________ _ __ * ` 241...............................* ' _____ c. -?hs weldors ' -hoods -should-be Inspected, at leut *. , |, 'wcehly-to dotectpocaibla lightleaho-, crashed protective ; | j | j glass or badly fouled or aicsing corer glasses. Any defects discovered shall be eorrsoted &t once. ' .| 5 9.22-Protectiveleatherwelders' Jachet, long sleeved ! - . v . ! wool ohirt with buttoned collar and leather welders * gloves : * .' . - t i and safety hat. ' .j > .' * .- ! a. It has been, found satisfactory in the hot sunaer i nontha tosubstitute flan* proofed cotton shirts* If this la done the flana proofing, which cust be i:eanplied 'after ,. . ! . eaah washing, should be done under the direction of the .. * . . -yard. -Shis entails that-laundering also be done by the - ' pany; -connercial laundries are rapidly 'undertating this ohiph i< eoa-: ! type of werh* *- . . . . That is substituting for tin wool shirt. 3Tow, I hnow. that, you uso those down in the.South, and cone on the West . Coast in tho hot country.- Poes evoryone agree that that . should be* left- in there if they are flans proof? . if ;:.Sar4oaed .and. tinted- protective goggles with aide-1 [,;}[. ahlal^a- to be worn under the`'hood for protection against * \ , V- *l**v**,*t.> ' '*'t' , *. f . rv*'. yl, * . , * * . *. % ` - J* ** '.Vharaful rayu whom tho hood to raised ahd for protection _ against flying scale and'chips* .?he goggles should be of f a typo noeting the' mquimaenta of the-' IT. . Samoa ef j *. , * V v * *v, ** . /*'**..* ' ; * ` ' * y. . Standards 'had.'of at .least iTo* -4-S ohada or equivalent.* - -____ -- A ^ r* _ - * nuot-do*- hro-you-going..to follow op by recommendations for ' *` i punishing anyone for the violation of these rules? *; . CSAlRIiAli RCCE2: He are not. T7e are not going to follow ,I up with the punishment of anyone for violation 'of these rules. * ' ________ ` i Tho aafoty engineer's Job lo to lay dean the company's policy i to a aan'as soon as he starts. Froa then on, he continues j to train that nan In safety, and it is his Job to ao train ; .* . .i the nan * want to that he is willing to obey the 1 ** punish then,. that is your Job, , safety rules. If you. i *i and not the Hardline | .> Connlcsion^o Job. . _ ` , i ` HR* URITE: Tou would not sake a recommendation that . _* flone disciplinary action be tahen IT soae man violated this j j thing continually? ' CHilKL&S R0CE2: ' v' ' . *t Ho, I would not, 'with anything published by. the Earitine Commission. That would' be ashing for too . such* . . '. SS* SISE05T: la it your idea that these various yards ora to pay for thin laundering if' the ohirta are flame proofed? _ - .GXAIRHAB RCCES: He* ' . * . . . .SHHOTT?.. Thoy caa be lanisdorcd new without the flnn* proofing being tahen out of the shirt* .. . C3AXSHAS RDC22.: That in the first tine I have heard. about that* E2*. SI33QTT: The- dcPont peonies* prepared oono orepara- -.-vr : * .. . ' ;tioa, and X.understand, they can be- laundered tar a opooiai .............. " preparation* . . . . . ................................. . . 243 ** . CHAH2IAZJ RDCE2:...I trill tell you, when you get a larse . ' * J . % -juinbor of then, it neons that you hare got to get. oone lauadr to put.this business In for you* > . ' ... ! , H2U ` SIHECTT: that does that* . I^know around Hew fork, * ' : they hare a laundr i ... .. ; .! CEAIRHAH ROCKS: That is right, but none of the duPont : %. ' products non, so far as I know, laundered in the regular ray trill be any good after laundering* They have to be reflaae ' . * * *' ;' proofed, and that business of special preparation, it looks ; to no like adding noro cost to It* ..['* '**. ,* . . * ! *` _ Tou say who should pay for it? Frankly, I do not know. *' w* i I tMnlr that depends upon the local, conditions. ' Host of the .v * *'",* * * ** . Sagacoiun plants which enploy nany. thousands acre-people tha ' Bi| ..* * *. ". *... * * -V. * *- ..we do,`pay for the laundering and the re-flane proofing of \ the'-'shirto^ *' ; ::*4^ V/ n yjJtiDt- strikes as.that this paragraph aeans . that the'-. ' company is.to pay for.the laundering* r;- . -;v; . ... ' ` ....................... ^..CHAXRELAH ROCHE: jtdoes not say that,, but it is left k J' - 4 --up.-to. than.--An a mttap of -friat, * *8* , i . ,< ^ ^ w ** . v - .* . cone* t* that, under - 'V'f.a i2ittler later cn* and. that.*, is loft up' to the yard , *.. . *..**; f ***..<. *.^***?k *** * \ * * ^ *.**_#. **'... ' ** * * * -l ^ 1 * '**- .f.v V ' " r -<1-':^^* .dacida one tray or. the other* .* `' - C `1 -I*:''.'* V.'-. .... '.. . . Saf'oty'ahacs with leather odes and heels* ' . UIU TRAIXEHr Caoeuthin eorror the- voider rs boots that 's HI l'.T ! \ ch * \ A \f-Zr . CHAIHHAH ROCKS: ...Tea... ................ - ----- ; Z-l-z . ... hr*. FRAZIER:- -Tou.know they were stopped In production *I on those about three nonths ago, and in order to get the * ' assistance of a body, I think we should write to the *ar Production Board on that order 217 to get some action on m "* .. ' ....... * -that, because we are unable to get wonen's shoes. .. CHAIRMAN ROCHE:- V& will go to town on that. ' i .I t : SR# F5ZIZR: That is on the order M-217. : CEAIRSAN ROCHE: What do you think about corded heels? HR- F1SIER: I think they are all right. " | a 3. 5 # *t . 1' ' .. *, .* CEAlRHAB ROCHE: All right,-I will get a definition of * that, and we will put it in there. ' # _. / HR. FRAZIER.: That'is, corded soles and heels. i j ; ; S* * - . * | . / HR. WHITE: Bo all welders have to wear safety shoes?- I. ' . ' \ S'. \ ' GEAJRILfiN .ROCES: Tee. . *. ' : X :HR-. FRAZIER: in being used.' Bown South they hare devised a boot which . \* ** . . 3k lK" 245 tect aen working-nearby-from the harmful-affects of the ' electric.-arc rays should be used on all electric welding op erations .... -- --* .... -- - - -...--. - -- ..... . ... -Of. course, you are going to hare difficulty in some * *> ' ** *9 i . spots, but where youtcanjose_thea, use then, and that ply-- - ' . '* , iI wood sheet business I saw on the Vest Coast is possibly the * ' cheapest and the best screen of any* It is two plywood 1 ' sheets about 14 s 16 Joined together with a couple of rings,' t' an inch and one-half inch in diaaeter, and the holes are ' : ` J drilled, in the wood so that when you put then together here -| . ` .` they are self-supporting, with no Joints from which light i [ i .can leak through* 5hey overlap, and it makes a good solid shield that can be usad, and it is very light, and I found ' \\ ' . * * . *. other shields that hare weighed as high as two hundred pounds the- .men.*,* w oul*d- not us* e them, because they wo uld not carry .. them around, but they do carry the plywood shields around, * * ****'.,* and it.Is. a swell Job* ** 4 * # '' ...... HR*;GRAHAJX: Do not they object to the extra piece of equipment' that they will hare to move? ' S. 1 CHAH2US R0CES: ghat, does v_ / ^ this'.'{indicating)*' .'*'..'..';^ v J**;;* v*-*'*--'* not ?flrh any-fTm th-rn. , *.. -''.r.:* .*^1 ; V ;/ *' ;LVV*1* *. * %* ` ` . - /..-/..HR*. .SRASLfiU: ; Ihe way wehave ever eons that'Is by aug- r;7-:f- '* . . . /`'Sooting .that' they bracket the screen to' hold the welding rod * .;'*/" 'v' - 7.'**'&***/'. * * * * * ^ . , * * i ' - * *. ` ` . . ` cox^ and we .put `a hood on the- ten*; Ve have four pieces of ;; :r- ir*&: ' fy * /, ^.-.Borwca, and I think you will find that that will work out ..*. . ` v-u s*v . -.' \ . -.. J-v.,- - .. . . --, .'-> 4 *>, ,-* O:.. '-.'...,.*..v,*-**:*:r.**.::..*,r% -/ . *. . . *-_*5,.<..*........*...-.'/**. ".-..*.,.... * - r' .,* *** . . * . ..** , *% .* , * V ', ` . v v- /Vi! * *-v ` - ` " *. *v * ' *' *.** * hotter than carrying an additional piece of equipment, * . * .. --CHAIrCiAK ROCKZ: --I would like to see then sade as . * , m. ) ` . i cheau'1 ^ t as possible without using' metal,. and there is a definite need ' for thousands of these soreens. . *** . . ! 1 *1 ! . ER, GRAHAM: For a screen that scal~lj there is plenty of * * 4 * scrap sheet netal around in the yard, of, say, 16-gauge, that ' .* i will provide the welder with sufficient 'material, if he is ' ' ** * j not careless, . ' ; i j CHAIRMAN* ROCHS: , ' West developed for? Whose yards were those screens in the : ' '. . . * * - MR, HOGAN: In the Oregon yard, . . .. CHAIRMAN FjOCEZ: They are very fins, ' . j . By the`way, I bolieve we should change * should" to N ....... . * .. . .. ! j shall*, and after that, we will add the words *where pra>- I ticable*, Perhaps that is why I put the word * should* in ; .there*;r; ... . ..`-.'We'have to-'get out of'this room very shortly,, and a lot! of this etuff ^that you find from here on you will want to do, I know, "and you trill want to add to it, because it covers j :i \ -.1*4. Vi?"' * 'v-r-V.'-' - ' ' . | ^^gpeolfle. craft practices'-for tha ncflfpartr do will you take b'T.'thdoe with you tonight nn& write in in, pencil or iInnk tho [v correct ions' that you would _like to have'included, and sign |C" Gtwe then to:.ue tacorrow morning* and. I will, in t : ;V* .; . ;i \ . put^thoao-' corrections'. or- additions' in there- where it ccan be an Tola ith Dec, ............... ........................... done, Is* .that satisfactory to you? 247 Then we will have that discussed with these four'nen . * *. who arc oonins in, and we will get a consensus on this and ,,put this thing into effect.. ' * ' ' How,' I want to tharsh you for your close and careful .*'* attention, and for the interest that you have taken in this jotu ' *. " V / " *. (The neetins adjourned until 10:00 unlock a. a., Tuesday,- Deceaber 8, 1342.) . * ^. V i ; .*. . `* * ... ; * ~ . *. - " - - <.........* .V * . v . .. . *>** r* . .. c * - * *. ,, 4 . %` . . ' * 4 4 w **,,** *' * , . * . v ---I * . r.*; *r^iV\***" w.* * -* i * C7 1 Harm UEITZD STATSS UARI7IH2 COHUISSIOH _ and . ' UHI7SD STATSS HA7Y ' 2*6 "HSZ7ISG JOR INDUSTRIAL HEALTH AND SAFETY IN SHIP YARDS. ` ' Hold In the Century Room, Hotel LaSalle, Chicago, i Illinois, on Tuesday, December 8, 1942, at ten orcloch a.a., v5fr. Daniel S. Ring, Chief,' Shipyard Labor Relations, United . ... ' States Haritiae Commission, presiding** ' i v'/ -o- . ' ` - CEAiH2AN RING: I have a number of announcements to * nabe. ' First of all, anybody,who has not registered should *' . * *' * register immediately* There are cards ay&ilable and they ' can be obtained, at the little desk outside the door* Tie I ' rant a complote record of ererybody who has been here* . ' Secondly, -there is quits a report by'the Eureau of .Labor Statistics 'on. injuries in shipyards, during the year '* Iv... ' 1 . ... -' ; 1 *1S41 that in in the course ef preparation* That is a .. * >v.v. '. in- general of conditions in 92 shipyards 'with respect * . '% . ,* 4*i ^* t .. `s _* * .* . * 7* reyietr' ! to the' . * injuries sustained there and a breabdorn as to the nature of " those injuries* .'Ths:Eureau of Labor Statistics .in present- ^;.ing that-' in''Britten.form. in. the naar future; in'printed 249 form, and thero axe II yard.3 with approximately 3,500 ia- jj juries that are completely brofcen down on a practical statis tical basis* By `practical*, I nean that there is an analysis of-the cause and the Beans of prevention of each and every !' one of those injuries* r- How, if you want then, you can gat . '* r1; those reprints of that article by comaunicating with ICr. E Hoche and he will have the Bureau of Labor Statistics send then.to you. I would thint that everybody here would want t V i> copies of that.' How, if there is anybody here that does not '*%.,* ' * want a copy, say `ae.1 : ` Hearing no 'ae'a1, we will* Just give this^ list of at- * .* * r ' .tendance hereto Hr. Roche, wlw will. transmit it to-the ' Bureau of Labor Statistics and ash them to send about five - . . copies to each one of you.' That .will amount to about 500 ! J copies.' \ jj ' r : '-C ''} .' yv-'1"V . . ' 'I -j/..- .-.He have with us .today,' and X would! like to have him I -* 7\-. , y V.- ! ! I come up" and' Just ` cay `iellp^ to you. Dr* Peterson of the ; fl' " i ., , 1' * |. ^ * ' .*,' .v - - - ** . . '. - : a American Hedical Association.' . He want to have Dr. Peterson ` J . ccme np and, say "hollo*a ^ .! L.:' *%' --C-C,** '.*y >v^-'--.x-ti'is';a:?r:ea*X. . p. l* e` a*.s* u**r-.e'to be-here % and meet with you * I^ ^ v:: ..... ; .* . : .-rii;'today.'" 'Tho'-hotico of' tha'meeting caaa to-my attention a r'*r. - "r* ..-**c. % >>'v.;. ' .* ' *'. ' ' j *'**'v, * .j **r - * . . , _. 25 U I. see one or two references in your standards to the wori which the Council on Industrial Health has been doing. I an sure that that body will be greatly interested in learn ing the results that you achieve through this conference and - *, -- , > 'through ' tbg~yo'rk-which"Dr--Drinker-aad-4tr-^- Roche-have been - carrying on. '. '. X believe that you are thoroughly alive to thef vital problems which are confronting you and the profession at large during these trying days and what steps we are taking to arrive at some satisfactory solution. I think if we all ` *' . attempt to figure these things out.together, we will make considerable progress. ' Thank you very ouch. * (Applause.) . \ * , - CHAXRHAff RIHG: I want to say that I have a telegram from John Green* president of the Industrial Union of the .' ., . * Karine and Ship Building Workers of America, affiliated with the 0. X.`:'0. which,*as .usual, I have ldft upstairs in ay overcoat*' John said that, he wanted to extend his regrets for being'unable to attend'here. He was aeeting in Uashing- ton under circumstances that prevented him from leaving, . and he .wanted to extend to thin conference his sincere viahe for a successful prosecution of the objectives thereof. ' >yA-.;! want to, have that in the record, because I 'know if he could, have*been here he would have been, here* '*"-"* ."'Realising that the safety nan are prone to be a little 251 less technical than the aedical people, I suppose that re can just call on the safety aen for a report now, and then they will hare their nininun standards bandied up and tied up and rea^yto go* . . " .. : - I trill call on Hr* Roche to report for the safety sea. (Hr* 'Roche nere assumed the Chair.)-----------------------*------------- . CEAIRHAH R0CE2: As you hnow, tre did not finish our job yesterday*, 'ffe had to postpone it* I ashed each of ycu to write your suggestions and recoaaendationa of the p^rt *' . . not finished in the craft safety operation section of the ' : standards*. I hope you hare all done that* = .. . :i hare a report from the comittee of which Hr* Clari ' was chaiman*' i would llie to present that at this ' 1 tdatt*. ' *' . .1 . -. * .` . j Tour ccanittee appointed to gala a change in the . j V** * * *` * * language in paragraph 3 wiohas to report as follows: That : ,.:the la'ot sentence of the ah ore-naned paragraph be changed .'-.Jv:... . to'read as-follows:. . V' ' -v . . ' I j . ', * * . . *" *, " ** "The safety director shall report to *and be responsible ' ' * *. ** - *'.i ***-,- * .* ^* * j ,:to the highest, ranging nanagerial eaacutive- or hin designated ... . . . . djalibexationn . `ffnlAfvr hairin' present at. the : ' V"'-* '! ? x. fF-.hji- * > v;- -'H * ' *v * *i5, epori; be* accepted? . * 4 ' to' a Vetoand % i ^ .* f. * -i:'*.; _ >. r-^ . v. - - ;v ':>V. -.v -:/r ` \ . . . - .' .. . ** ' ' ,. < ' - carried-) ** 252 ' . CHAIBHM R0CE3: Then that will he the language of that 'particular section- '" \ ' Hay I -hare a report froa the coasittee on the super-___ Tia'ors* fora? la the chairnan here? ** # ` HE. ES3BALL: We aade very few changes in this fora. We hare no written report to offer because our seating Just adjourned about fire sinutes 'ago. . . at . One suggestion was to include/the top of this fora, which I understand will be printed on a 5 by 8 card, instruc- 0 '. ' * ** tions to be subsitted with the sonthly injury suasary fora by the 15th of the succeeding sonth to the Division of Labor, \\ * ' . - 'Accident Statistics, Bureau of Labor Statistics, Washington, B.C. * That is aerely to direct it -down the right channel. `'.- Then, on the first line we'thought it wise to add a few words to the first sentence: *?ill out for every disabling- injury whether or not coapensible. * That will clarify that point aatorially. ' - ' ' "hose 'are the only changes we suggest ** report cT accident.fora. : : ***. .CSAISaAS EQCE2: You all hare that fora in front of you * * * *.. %. .f , i..`- /"., >; * .**-` *.__, - . .. .- * * * .' * -.T9U-^LaTe hoard`the changes nads and reccaaonded- Will ' * v \w ***/ . * *'**."*'- *. -you aahe^a notion that the report of the conaittee be ao- r * v.? ceptedt , ." ..*v..,,*. .. . r.-.-V-'i-*- C'Sha- notion was aadc,` seconded, and carried-) ' * 253 . . CHAIRHAH ROCES: Hay I Ha ve a copy of that before you. go today? ; HR. EEHDALL: Tea. ' . . . CEAIRHAH R0CH2: We atill have the procedure of appoint- % 4 , * lag the." committee fox the group aa a whole. We have about three hour a1 work to complete that. If we get a committee we can begin the safety part of that -Job. I would say there is about an hour and a half * s work, perhaps, left. 4 . So I aa going to leave that authority with Dan Ring for this action. He would like to finish this 30b before we, leave today,.but 'I would like to have immediately, or as r soon aa the cosaittee is appointed all the suggestions and \ criticisms you have written in longhand. * \. \ already. *;"*/' -f-. ` . ' I have several y HR. EHHDAIL: .Hr.; Chairman, in reviowing that fora, we- '* * also took a crack'at the monthly injury summary. But tre suggest you include in that op" of. that fom the address, - * * .. ' . . .. with a notation as 'to the number of copies and where they should go. .,TJe are not really cortain aa to how many copies --- _ ___' *_-*-- ^^ "  -25d opinion. . . Tie also had'in alnd possibly the addition of an item, under item 10, "Frequency Rate", to include.the accumulated year to date frequency. That would overcome the objections that were raised yesterday on tEe~four paid periods against fire paid periods, automatically carrying that out and taxing it along and also giving you a much better picture of your .frequency, because one swallow does not mahe a summer, and one month night be terrible and the next night be fine, and 1 your year to date will give you a better picture* 1 ' (Chairman Ring here resumed the chair.) K r. ' CEAIRhAR EZHG: 1 thinh that is fine. Suppose we have * .. * . * 1. * * \. a notion for the adoption of the recommendations of the com " aittoe in that respect, that is, if scaebody agrees with him ..of course**' Hots it yourself. Hr. Eendall. , ' . - ~ * *r . \ H* R. EZ3UL1L: 1 i so nove* ', , .' * *` , : " * . .. *' (fi^'notioa was seconded, put to a vote, and carried.) ( - v ..* . . ..* ' '.*' CRAIRITAH RIHGi How, with .respect- to the situation that the committee on safety finds itself in, we do not want to - go away from iiera without things wrapped up and dono in "a proper rasner*\';x thlr.h, after' tho; time that has been spent * * . 'i^ v .i ' *. "*'.* ' * * ** ' * ^ coming hoTer'and tho--sacrifice that everyono has made to \.* bo present.'at thin aeoting-,' it would bo littla Bhort of a -.'cxiaa-`if .we loft, -cay, 'an. hour and a half's worh between * * * - . . ** *.*-*; "I* ,*/ ** , *** . .* '* . . * ..p, complete*3ob* as. far as th3 cafoty standards are concerned t r inscrr-t and the condition that it 1b now in* 25 . . I think# therefore, that- unless there is objeotioa I will appoint a consittee to get to work on this as soon as we have finished with the lecture that we will'have this -noraingr-and--I -will--'them- -to--report -to -thi s -meeting at 2-^QC___ o?clock for final action, ` Do I hear any objection to that? There is no objection Tha coast*tec, I think, should be 'composed, in view of '. * . )1 the excellent results froa the safety consittee. thuB far, of hr. Eeadall, Hr. Saye, Hr. Frazier, and Hr. Frank Johnson* Bow, we ought' to have soaebody froa labor on this coaaittee. I think we will designate Hr. Fail and Hr. Grahaa, with Hr. Eocho serving ex officio. '. . `. * Tie.hare the privilege of having with us Dr. Eedwig Euhn, who knows-a great deal about eyes and knows a great ' ' ' '' - S' . " deal abort their effect.in industry. He has kindly con- . oented to show scae slides here and, rather than acre into * * ` - '"* *. ;* *. ' ` * the aedical part'.this noaont, I think we will change the '* ' 4* t line of procedure to peisit Dr. Euha now'to present and I- . .... . , . .. ................. ...... . ..... . - tt -^illustrate a~slida~ 1cctuxa that X know overyone will be in- 1 erostod: inland then we. will have the aedical .department , .,'roport inapdintoly'after that, at which tine Hr.- Sendall, jj '1 *-"*c* ' ' S-. Iir. Eocha>'ond: tha ccsaittoa. on safoty can really start g:> yias-f - \.`----Vvc; v"* .. ' .... . .rv;V-T:r<-' I will'now turn the seating Jover to- Dr. EVihai ' * ' i O. c- - ` . .. {.r . ` . - Oi 4 " It H *. * i * "s ..nsort Helen Dr. Inhn IX - . .. DR. HEDWIQ S. RUHR, (National Society for the Preventio of'Blindness, Hammond, Indiana): The thing that shipyard safety men, medical men and production men are Interested in as in all industries, ls^Syea for the Job," which means ` ` for-Safety and for-?roduct-i-on---That falls intn a few verr simple categories* ' ' , * S' ` > The first problem, cf course, is one you all know about *4 and have already talked about here, and that is goggle pro jection* Perhaps the road of eye protection is one that has been laid by-Harry Gilbert, who has done more, to be the . V * . pioneer ih goggle protection than perhaps any one person in * *. , /'the ;country. This is, protection to the eyes. If you will, . .* however, please, keep the two things separated, - protection .. to eyes, and protection from defective eyes*. .' . '-.in, all-out program is practically the only goggle oolu- \tion. in moat.industries, so that it includes management, . ..v.--ji .-'whan it goes into a plant, and visitors,' when thoy go into a .. - jk .. .plant, -- than tha men will also be sold on it*.. V : -. . various- types' of goggles you have seen. You who * * I*' *'* * :*. * }r.'%* a*..*"" *,-- .'I ?* J* , ** . `. **v-*vw'-~:- *.*. .- %'S ........... . .* * * ` \ |V--_ People who are unfortunate chough to have astigmatism know J.' v ""* *,*'*J* \ *v* * j ** * * c + .. - . #* ** aw#*A ^ ^ ^ V a 4 av aw ^ ^1 V. * **** v"*#* /._* * ** V*/JP\:/.;> . . 7e hare goggles for cany purposes; splash, light and : gases, and then we hare the newest development, the prescrip tion goggle, which has eliminated the oover-all1' goggle* . Becaus-e-of the prescription goggle and beoause of the el Inin; "tion of the corer-all*, fitting and adjusting Is essential* *. ' Host of your toxic funes trouble, of 'course, are really j : simply ventilation problecs, and not protection problems to ' the eye Itself. - - ` j . ' .Then In discussing accidents, because of eye defects, i one has the other side of the picture, froa accidents to the; `* '. s *; eyes* Tour aen hare broken arsa and broken shoulders and ! ^ accidents because of eyes, and I think that is the thing that sost generally' safety aen completely" orerlook. "` . v. As one example, you hare all seen thi3 ad la the papers of the Better Ylslon Institute, - *Ee says ay eyes are O.X.* > /. ./T"- . . ./Oh, yeahi That' is what I thought..* This could hare been ' taken out of. a case in our office, where the fellow came In with a foreign' -body In his eye. After checking him through jj-a. fcund he':ha& iur~d^th'perc^~^gnf;Y~S'6' wan sarenabi'e to---------- | ^.'queetlonins,._and'I asked, /Hare you had many accidents,* |# Vke said, .*I. hare had arlot of foreign bodies.* I'said, ; . \ X don't, nesn. that*. . Bid' you ercr- get your fingers in a I*aachlno?/. Ha pulind his left hand out of hiis- pocket, end he ** , *.* `w * ***.-;#* * ".'*> *. *- \ * Z'* when I say ' ` .-,1 had" throe- fingers off.* y That is- what I aean . .. . . . accidents . ...-------------------v, r^'cn eye defect* * . ** * . - * -* - * - * * 258 ; i ,i ! \ Tou hare a crane operator with a visual defect. Ton i ' ' ` . ' . ` iI hare an aocident, and you report it, but you make no mention . often of nh.etb.er the other fellow caused the accident, or ! tho fellow who was "reported" as being hurt having bec~n the ; cause of it himself* In other words,, that crane operator ' can by dropping a load break a shoulder* He is the fellow . *. .you want to find out about, not the fellow with the broken . shoulder* The nan who had somebody drop soaething on hin can be' blind In both eyes end yet that defect has no relation ' f' ' ' chip to his adcident, while the possible eye defect of the crane operator does,. - if this crane operator has no depth ' perception, that was a definite contributing cause of that . ' * . .5. . * accident**^', That type of'record, is beconing a part of the safety man*a plans, for reporting;- and must becone a part, . otherwise defects' and .accidents cannot be correlated with .. r ' . - V * * *w . . . .'.****" ; . * .,*. . * . , *' . statistics at all* Truck drivers and tractor drivers and men on scaffolding, et cetera, fail In the' sane category* This brings, up the first major question: XTKet. *- ^ i" ` *' * --: -----^ : '.V..: ` ' ' 2. Xou need to know about depth, perception. Uind yc now, that does, not mean you .are going to do anything about * . . ` . often you cannot, but you do need to know, ,.*** * 1'-: V.'" 3* Huacle Imbalances Tor near and close. You can pu a crane operator oh a cr^ne who has absolutely ptr-rr.t. In each eye, 20/15, and If he has a muscle .inbalance he nay start the day .beautifully', but after three or four hours he fatigues, ..and he end3 up working on a dangerous Job visual! unstable. . (To me a definition of-.the accident prone is & ciunsy person, or an awkward, person, and therefore he is * unsafe person. Isn*t that what any safety.man feels? There \ . if . 'fora,/you are visually clumsy, then you are unsafe, and a person with a muscle inbalance is visually clumsy.). * 41'.-'Xou need to know what sort of color appreciation a * ** >*** ('*' * y ' . . .."* * ", \,m t. .. v. . r t.V. * ' * ** ,** " wnrr hafl'* '/. . s; . * ' .V.'**/ * V.\". 'iff.- .'* ' . . . .: -..And,' -finally, for certain pprr<ecision Jobs you need some nearrision' tests, : y :.t'.' V .-. . *;- .- . ' v.v*.:-.v; .She, Snellen chart at twenty feet for.industrial records ,is impossible. . pint-does, not, in the first place, give you _j. T.art nffc^BBEyterprandfcL, be cause SO per cent of the tine it cannot 1 ''yl?:-'. '-!*?;. *.' -j :?2hs?'Xighi' ia wrong, th.a'rnncrae:'ih. looking' the ', *. . Y*# * !.*-* *.'*s-.4.*^r-- .s^ " * ` .t. otharjwny*,-'when Bho carers one eye, or,., ns in oxer district*; ... ' v.i'- * -- * ' . .. . . .. . ... I ~ . j:. . gouth.Chicago,.. among .the people that aoaa `to woxh aver' in - j , xzidiann'i ' clauses ;`oro- hold.' .'The''hen gat the Snailon charta ^ .r; | 2- 5k the employment office and sire- you any thins you naat. Cr the chart hang* over their heads as they wait, - as I sav ** . one large ordnance plant. Here the chart lo in the valth ** w . rooa, and the nurses take the vision tests while the nert fellow sits there and memorises It.- So that kind of a vie record doea"-notna'tfan anything. v .' JL_l with Then vj take it? Tlken 261 28k > In the lower row.of colucna are the percentages of these s Base fivecategories aaong the men who have lost tine acci- ' dentc. In each instanoe the per cent la higher, especially \ In the 'nen who rea&in uncorrected in spite of glasses, Frcn ' ' ., . ^ `* __ i this slide you get the" idea that there is something h<flid>>* ! '~ , * ' i acuity and that ail of these visual factors play, a part in ., j ii accldonta, .\ i This lead3 us right into the second basic question, - ! * ** . i what do We need to fcnow about an employee1 a eyes to insure' ' ' . . .. * i nartnun proauction and ninlnua waste,, which I.presune you are ^i ' also interested in* ' >. ! . i i ' . Tfe need to hnow the sane facts, and this next slide : `* .* -I 'flisply is a rough dramatisation of what we sean by visual ! * ' .J chili* thin la a young lady looper and a crane operator, '! The. crane operator gust often operate at a span of 150 feet, *'.*'"* # * .* * * but'your looper worhs at eight inches eight hours a day . straight ahead, not down* How, the two people cannot fill ; both of those'Jobs with the saae visual equipment, . ;; .. The next slide shows you the percentages on sixteen" thauscndjarployeew^ that worn _ eheched in the Calmat district, .v'f: '| /.and;.the poreonh"of' dofecta of these five things- talhed about * ** *% *' * *'. * * r ** -***,* ,. i*e*,/acuity defects*'2X per cent, unoorrected acuity,.'12 V " :vV' Sane ..J ana, nuaexa- moninnea, 23 per cent; i <--?V. r -}.*. ,\v .*?;'-T.. ... .. * . V,.. irf'hnyijiadustry.'v It.'would probably-' bo the ; - *..*. **. .. . : * -- ' aaaaan<e .. ' in the .- \ l CO -V ......................... .................................. . 26 L ehipyards- as anywhere else..................................................................... . * ^ The- next slide shows.you.that.people that.apply for a Job hare almost 'the same average almost the same percentage or defects, and that a person does not get a visual defect by going Into industry. He may hare an accident, but you ,4 . i dontt get a muscle- imbalance, - ----------------------__ i. From this type of information you can set up a Job classification which should be kept rery simple, - Class A, the fellow that has to be absolutely perfect;. Class B, the .fellow that does not hare to be perfect (intermediate); and ! . .. . _ `. i ; ,,clsss C, the people that hare to be perfect especially for - . *i close-in production wort, ^, j ' *. % * ' . v.. Why all this? Primarily to eliminate the visual bottle t* . ; * *. * ' ` .* * t '. * . ` .'meets to efficiency and the visual aptitudes, the thing that' I . Wolff in doing with training in your overall analyses, : ; - * . j ;Xou cannot train visual defects, such as acuity, but you can . / . . i -.train muscle balances, and you can sometimes train depth - j perception* ...That mates for, accuracy and mates for safety, ' * -** _ ` | .ySrtrj day,the army and navy air. corps recruiting headquarters / send _down the boys that.have muscle imbalances,' and they are * * V-i trained until., they can pass 100 per cent n-nd go- on ahead j t,v.",` ' v- ' - ' : ' j * **. i, .y:fly^planes^**If_we can do It,' for aviation, we can do it; . *V . . c* ` ' j irs-^or.iindustry, as. aoon'an industry 'sees- the results accomplishes C .;V'!.-'s . * j. next two, elides-'ahotr you the* relationship between ' - r.* * . * visual 254 performance records for inspectors* You Kara good vision, fair vision and poor vision, and the correlations are direct with speed of Tori* In other words, your speed, you notice, is highest with your poor vision* The foreman will pick .1. out an Inspector and say, ""That girl is ny best inspector, she is snappy and speedy." But actually she is the one that \ , ' lets( things go through.* Accuracy of work, at the bottom of the column that you saw, is inverse. In other words, the better your vision,* the sore accurate you are, and the poorer jronr vision, the less accurate you are. . ' . The other slide demonstrates the same thing for.clerical work, in which your record forma are shown by the coleans resting on the table, indicating the relative amount of work accomplished by p eopl(e who passed the vision test an* d failed * .# * in the three-Jobs indicated. In other words, you will do . more work and do it nors accurately if you can pass all these *. visual tests. ! ' * ^ "Sew, this last slide I Just threw on to show you how nature or survival of the fittest -------- s the people'that cannot,do their'Job. ' This is according to 'the~specialised occupations, - three groups, crane operators, *, ; *. v\` , ` *. \ V. .* . .** %...* ''* #-- *.* * .. \* . * . clerks, and loop era The; crane operators, you see, are the . V- -- : a. *'***. v.-. j**'-*.*;**. . > - .-*'*,,. . * ** ' most, perfect in. all groups, and the elerknf acuity without . *. ' . \ *v \.' *> .1 ` - * *- . * ' glasses is very' badW `Do,you. know why? Moot clerks are near sighted without'their glasses. Thoy cannot see, which does 265 not make tis.cn poor Claris, perhaps quite the contrary, but la-Just a'natter of record. Among the loopers, muscle im- balance la very high. The girl working eight Inches from her * " * . 4 ** i. eyefl la In a predicament unless she haa special visual skille Sow, what' to do with the situation as is, - 1.e., with j . the employees at wort. 1* Tou check the visual skills' of *It * * ' I[I' these .employees in the departments of critical production. l jj (I repeat, we moat be realistic .about programs in war times || | and. not suggest an all-out program when industry could iron 1 out trouble npeta but haa no tine Tor an all-out program., |. now, at least*) \ . ' V , .. . 2* . Correct the defects among the critical production '*/'* ' * . employees, wherever possible. `\ . .`3% Shift jthe employees, if necessary. ' . ' . . : .. .. . . . '' ' TThat-.to- 'do wlth;.new applicants? 1*. Allocate them and . * t* **',**. '* ; *' * * '* . place, them according to their visual shills, and I am sure. . I lr. tfolff will bear^ae out in wishing'that the people.that he trains were tested and picked and allocated, so he could I teach thon what they can do*. 2* '. .Cn-rr^nt. them before hiring IIow, .Just a word about.the welders, and Juab a comment ' - '* on. your statement in.-'the outline- hero. Welding Is mainly a --.i'"v*:;V:*- - V'*. problas* -X believe-, oiyprotective equipment and" its.use*" I .titinJr .the/welder. that 'wears ..his ` equipment, where- that equip- V I'iuvilfet u ___ .......... - .................... -- ................ 2S6 .lk aent is adequatelias no troubles. It is the fellow that | breaks the rules accidentally or ignorantly that has trouble. ST did & little Job in research on welders on Vitaair.e A, ** * *' Welding does sot sake, a bit qf__dlf.f erence. Welders have-no - depletion of rioual purple. . .. , Wow, in your Section C, No* 1, under flash bums and jj foreign bodies in the eye; Hr. Ring has said that when you put in your records the word 'shall* it means a certain thlng^, and you nay, *An eye flash, shall be treated only by * a doctor, * I wonder if you have any idea what that means? | An eye flash is a simple thing to take care of. We have & /T lot of flaahea, but nothing compared to what the shipyards . \ . have, and we train our nurses to take care of flashes. The only thing we do la 'to make sure to see the cornea at the tine or within 24 or'36 hours so we know there has been no ` , * " injury to it or other trouble. But to anesthetize the eye, ` j . to nake Ice compresses, to follow it up with directions at .. . . . * ->-J hone, all of it under nedical supervision and outlined by ***** ' ;*.* * , . the doctor,, r grant vrm la artnj.Vt^(T u iiul-ub eA!'i~rinT and V'-T 1 it, is 'stated' that, '.*It/shall.he treated, only'by a doctor,' -.'it means that that one* thing h.is to be violated* Sy ougges--, ^&.vvv-:*:f . \:*. ` - tioTi- TTDrsTcT 'br thnt vm '1 -n~A 4 +- should b O dCBS UCldor a % . ~/a ' V .<*. '.'' handle th'e se things,. -C his discretion how to *v'.r -. \* * '' . ' ! * ' ** . . ,,*\* .1.r v^.. ;*>>^f.v-./**.'. -a* : .* .* . * *. " * *'?- *Acothor> thing cans up* .Oner- of the doot-ors asked ue what to do la cases where flash, symptoms do not.develop for sever, or eight hours aftarward and they report to a general hospital and that general hospital does not know anything about in- ! duatri&l accidents or flashes and does not handle then well. ; " &ay I suggest that your Saritine Commission, either thrcu ' 1 ' .* -I its medical consultants cr th& U. S.. Public Health Department issue a Terr a tuple sheet of instructions to general hospitals *. ^ j in the industrial areas with directions on hotr to take care i of a case that cones in with a history of a flash. There is ' no mere uncomfortable can, and there is no man'who suffers, ! . >. not damage, but suffers pain .and discomfort as much as the i ; '- ' - -* . man with a flash who is not treated properly. \ . - *. N. '' ` .! 1 ! I raa very;much amazed to hear this morning the'-cocaents made that weiders are off three or four- days in the yards. j Our weldsrs go bach on the'Job. They are given aad^edication *. ` '-. t to use during the day and told where first aid can give then ! *. * * . 4" ` tt ice compresses once r twice 'during the day, if neoessary. . ! They arc not off the'Job, except very rarely, nor are foreign ` . .' bodies off the Jnh, .a+j** wia --------:------- . ` . ' i \: .'.'The comment was 'nade that'IT you'have a patch on a case * ., * ,. . . .*. - . . .*>. . *. .. you send him horns. 'Tou cannot put. him.- on a. crane or a ccaf- fold, but you can 1st Mr*. go' bach to worh* and if your cen are crane operators,, do', not' put .them' on the crane, but you : can giro then something to' do and. not'have then be absentees. '' ./`The final suggestion to-'you. from a"aere ophthalmologist 258: is, first, that whera possible yon thirds about visual testa, ' * I j even on the Pacific Coast, where labor has not yet under-- * .. -* * , i stood that testa for new applicants will coae, I can tell you that, in one plant here labor is the. instigating power behind' an all-out visual-testing pro gran to increase production in a plant doing vital war worh. I an sure that as soon as labor' .i hnows this Is not a discriminatory test, but a test that will ', { add to one's merit rating, bring in more money, they will not . i ' be again3t it; 2. Hahe a visual survey at* the hey spots of ! . - . - . I your plant, to find out what you^hsve, where you thinh your ! * trouble is; 3* Eave a goggles program to protect eyes; 4.' . % ' \. Use of the visual data you have to protect other people , * . .. . .* i . . ` ". ' ` . ! from defective eyes, and, finally, 5, have a rehabilitation i- \. . . - . . . -' program* \ 1* . , ' . .. ' ' . Ton have been very hind* Thanh you. .* ......-:i-_ '"7 `' ' 1:'.'-ECU'EIDC-: _Dr* luhn hnows by now when you put out, you * > 4 %. *1 , lay yourself - open'..far any attach on anything, you have said. . i -- v., / . ' ':** ' . * :*: . ** % .* , . ' .X.aa wpnd'erins.'if. thcr8 are- any* questions7 Dr luhn did not %, * hnavr she was.,going to be subjected to this cross exaainationj --fmd I. aa^ going to.- tahe";thia'on. ny own-. Eaa annyy!body any qaes- '..* t--,'*,* "-*.%***\ <x.t.*T<f*.* t/t v*-:*c;*'J' ** ' _ ;*,** *~ ,# * -- **' . ' v * *' . - .i . * 4* M ___w w w ___a. _ * ****. I 2 7\) ~DR. SPE3CTR: . Could we possibly hare copies of Dr. Kuhn's address? I thinJ&e would all profit by it if we bad it, ' '. -' ` t -CHAIRHAH RIHO: Suppose we put in an order now for mimeographed copies' to the extent.,. I would aay, of about 500 of Dr. Kuhn's remarks. The atenotypist can prepare that Tor us and deliver it'to the Haritiae Commission, and I will hare it distributed to everyone who is here. I think we are ready to take up the report from Dr, Drinker on the medical and health standards, and now I think that that committee on which hr. Eoche is ex officio member and which is composed of Hr. Kaye, Hr. Kendall, Hr. Frasier, Hr. Johnson, hr. Fail, and Hr. Grabs, nay roll up their - ' `f '****. * * * shifts and got together and be ready to report here at 2:00 o'clock with a comprehensive program that will enable us to get the minimum standards of safety out of the way, . _ .1 will now turn this meeting to Dr. Drinker. S : D S*. B* RISKER : ' I " wculd suggest in this report that we ' skim through a rehash very rapidly of the things which we ', know are not controversial and let us get then out of the I way, and then come back to the items on which we ask the | coaaittee to report, because that will unquestionably have v to have a little dincasoion* . .. ' ''*- .* .. .. ' ` * il .-.***: 5' ' . l : On Section h,' nodical facilitioa, it vac suggested tha : * . . ^...... * .* -wo had. too. few clerkn down there under paragraph 4- and that tre should change that where it says "at leant two clarka" to at'least three clerks.* ' Are there any objections to that? I assume that is approved, then# . '^ ' There was a suggestion that there be a station wagon provided within the yard to be used as an ambulance Inside "the yard. I do not think we need to make that obligatory, but we could put it in'as a suggestion. You remember,' it was said that a station wagon running around about the yard worked out better than an'ambulance, because of the feeling the people had of an ambulance going around. It seems that is a matter of preference and could be left to the medical * and.'safety groups, especially to. the medical, in the yard. - * . * '~ ' ' la -there any objection to that? It seems to be 0.2. * , . . 'It was suggested "that in 'physical facilities" there .. *f be a statement definitely in that lint that there be a pro- rinion fox a clerk and registration desk which will be put - .. v . . '.. * ****** V * *. . * *. In. so thoxe will be a distinct room for the registering`enc purely clerical part'of it aa distinguished from tho'recor: ' *.. 4 * * that you, night want ta get only the nurses or tha doctor t- tr ' ".. . .' ;.:;-i;;;*:V-It;''waa also .suggested that .in the "physical facilitie ' * * -*.*/*- .-n .,*.* .V.. .* ' we otnto definitely that provision may be necessary in car ..tain, districts, an in-the. south; for what amount to facil- itato-' handling 'four groups; that. in, nalo, female, white, and colored. He would not put that in -as a requirement, be cause that naturally will shift to the district, and X see no reason for making that any sort of an obligatory standard That is, we would not put that in as a "shall"; is that right? " '' ` ** # There was a suggestion, and it was agreed upon -- I do'not think it can come in in the standards, but we will do what we can. ab out it -- thi at safety inspectors and medical * * attendants be paid on a scale which will enable the yard to keep such individuals and is op them satisfied and on the Job. / * *v low, on the possible controversial items: . First, the suggestion was mad'e by Dr. Kuhn *--' and I doubt if there 'would be any objection from anybody. Tou notice in the medical standards we did not give the directions to the medical staff as to how they would treat them. These come- , * * ** . . . .. . .................' under, hare as a guide to the safety department and, so far * ..-V. - . .' ''as we'are concerned,' we question the need of 'putting them in under.'the medical standards. ^tvTm.a. ` f '**"** * * r. ** ***** * .'that thsy'wcuid be, loft up to.'the doctor to arrange, any- V~ .'way., jEuk;.- if it-' in- to"be- stated,. I think the euggestiom ;*.**.' si--t-?: *`*.V ' ' . trwatod accdrdiTi.;..ter`.matheda prescribed by the pbyaician, /and do'not state "that-they; would have .ta be treated by tho physician. That is agreeable l: . The other item he. suggests is a brief notification to ' **. . the hospitals in the general district as to-how eye flashes . * night be treated when aen call upon then or upon the local physician.' I fla m would all agree to that. If^agree- . ' . ' ' ' " - ~ .| able to you, we will see that step is taken, to get out ouch notices, preferably through the American Hedical Associ ation* ' r '' . f * Tou can help'us on'that, Dr. Peterson. f *, , DR- PETERSOH: Tea. ' . * : . DH. DRIEEER: Ve assume you will help us, is that right? ( . '* ... '"'as. PET2RS0R: * That is right,' * . ; ' \ .SHAIEIIAS RIEG: Tou .are going to do it? .* . ' - -I -ri}R. PETERSGH: That`is right.' '' CHAIRHAS RUG: That.is out of the way, then. . . '; j 'j DS.'-DRIHESR: .'I would ask now that you tum back to the' proposed' resolution, and I 'want very much to have the pro .* '*';# . * .***'. . ' - V ', ' ^ _ : and con.sides'of that* presented bo there *is no feeling in i "anybody^ mind that it has not been properly discussed. -4 . _V t ' l \ w ` **- J,* , ; * ' _ ` . 1 . Tou remember that you approved of qur appointing a' committee -c ^">vV-r .' -i . ; `' " * which started. with Dx. Riake as chainaaa and Doctors Spehcer -* ' '' j- >.. =' ~ ' and Croft as fellow members. and that committee was form-- ,, '' ' " * `T V *" * / *'. *r " \ ' * V ' *. * . .'wlatod'.tb^write" several resolutions^ v : :' O' 'ITKw fgrr; vTt wan requested by one'of the physic inns 'thin morning "that 'we^oolTo-alab- in 'regard to the contacts 'I -..-.V V '.* e ' r> >* . 6l4 .. '"between the various company nodical directors and the cocpan; i` * e officials* tfe hare had this experience on the west coast, jj that the medical directors and the company officials, namely, li 275 quest ty the shipyards, physicians in sufficient number to provide for tthe execution of the provisions of the *HIHI1IUJ STAHDAKDS for'the 0CH7R0L 01 HEALTH in COHTHACT SHIPYARDS 0p JtARITIiLS C01QIISSI0H AND HAVY*, dated Deceater 7th and 8th, 1942, at Chicago; and, furthermore, that additional physicians .. / "* ` : 1 .be^provided, on an essential basis, to insure a safe level of y. medical oare for the employees in areas where minimum stand ards, herein listed, are insufficient; that the essentiality * of Maritime and 5avy contract shipyard physicians be com- 'parable with, that of Havy Yard physicians while the paramount nature of ship construction shall prevail* . *. II Prospective employees'-of Haritime and Havy \\ * . ' _ * . contract ! i t :. shipyards shall under pre-placamcnt physical examinations by `% 4 ^^ * qua ,lifie. d and licensed phy^ sicians* , in the pursuit of employee. i health, efficiency and the safety of fellow employees*' - i III That those employees exposed to particular hasards -; through their specific occupation or who through their worh hazardously expose fellow employees shall receive periodic . .'* '' . rechech physical examinations*. ___________ . * . ; : IT -That' a ccmaittee be appointedto rorh with the Council -..on IndaatTiai Health of the American Hodical Association in .. the preparation of pertinent medical articles relative to .... . ` \ * the special problems arising out of the shipyard weri, i.o., i -1 arc flash,'welding affections, etc* ' ,' ~ *-* * **. * . ,* *-- ' ** . ' * . . .This set of resolutions has been'.exposed to criticism * & * vj by.various interests, Maritime people, labor people in the .' ` meeting, various phyaicians, and we subnit it f or your ap proval# A. discussion would be welcome on it# I. ` . ** * ' . PR. DHI3Z3R: The use of the word "essential" -and _-"essentiality" in that first resolution is deliberate, be- cause that is a tern with a very specific meaning in the ** Procurement and Assignment Division- with reference to ' ' doctors, and it is Teally important that those actual words be used# ' .: * . ft .. De would like discussion on these resolutions now, ' . * * . know, there are somb pros and cons# . 1 ! ( . ! f : *" ,'dR.POISET: ' It- seems that the second item in the resolu- . *% ,. '' tion could be elaborated on a little bit# It seems to me _ `- . *' ... . '; that specific recommendations should be attached to these ; ' ` v# *. 4**'. - .**# * ' * , , I 'I "resolutions by amendment or otherwise, pointing out what we : i. - propose to do when you give the examinations, I think that ; V part was very bell brought' out byDr#'Xuha# The ordinary physical eraaination is'not very valuable as they are'or* * .-*.** . * .^ " dinarily made, either pro-employment or pre--placement*- The word, "shall*,, it aeens to'ne, 'should be eliminated- I- .s "o' \i.' 'f"'i ..J."'.\ }`IV-'-. . ". '-* . . J -,t:. think it. should be a. Voluntary thing# Conditions vary in., * ! j rbt *. J*;v^-**"**w #-* *^ '*. *`at.* ***.v * * .* * *.* . * . *: ,, | different, parts of the country and conditions vary differentl: J , . - * .* f ^ 4+ * # , % ; . j -in'different yards# ' r '... ' V. i| . . Tharw are many yards at this tine that 'do not have . j - r--* * .-v? . -. i -j' * proper .or sufficient, facilitios for taking care, of thc^caaes ' ' ' ' .277 they already have* I am familiar with several yards of that t kind* Sene provision should he nade or recoanendation in *. * . ,. * . eluded that if pre-placement. examinations are going to be made, that facilities will be_forthcoaing* J 4 I think those facilities should be separate, and I ' think "that a different doctor should make those examinations than the doctor who is practicing in the yard, *4 The reason for that is obvious. A doctor will go a long way in your personal relationship in the personnel I problems in the yard if he is not hampered by turning men ' . down or asking one nan Btop one job and go to another job. ' That was pointed out yesterday to some extent* \ * *" * *. .* . . I would...like to know before this resolution is voted i i* \ on an to just how far it -is Intended to go in the natter of j * * '* i serological examination* It,seems to ae it is rather silly ] to make Uassermanns. X nan may have a negative Tfassermana'- ... * *^ . today-_and a positive one later. So.far as' immediate in-.. * *,-./ *.**,** * . * . / _ . t i ! * faction, 1 think there is no more danger than any of -us en-- ' . . * '*, '.* * * *. . , counter who go to a drug store or an n-rdiraTy -------!_ * I*** .* \ / '* V * * V The examination .should include, -certainly, the deep . . " .* ' ># ** 'j r ; '>* . * . , * /* 4 . * '* . . * ' -.reflex and._triple area reflex and patella., and 'so on, he-- i . cause- that ia where'you pick up the-things that will" do daa- ' age in' tertiary syphilis. to the 'man, or the men working with hia. That can be very 'easily "and. quickly dona* '" -; ' /- *.-* ' * % - Vv *' '* " ' * : * V ** . ' *: *' . TJhen you'consider-that, in acme yarda there ia a turn- . 278 over- or 100 percent -- I was told this coming 150 percent, *, 4d I as told in other quarters there is a greater, turnover ' ` in'labor every year -- you are going to sake an artful let ctf . UasgeTaanno and waste a lot of tine in nan power and clerical work possibly without reason, ' ' . : , Ccaing now to the proposition that was discussed yester day of the dirriculties resulting fmc the exposure to sine " e* . oxide fuaes* I do.not thinfc that natter enters into this . -proposition* This is purely a.natter or naintaining can .. . power, and I- do not`thin!: that the liaritine Cceaaission or , : ... this meeting should rote on this with any idea relative to ! \, , ' compensation or- suits*' : * , . . , , . .' .. ' ' . <*/-j .:[Xn the first'place, 1 do not thini that who pays the : *j - " damages'enters into the picture at all- It `is a matter cf placing men where they will build ships' and do more wort- ; 1 XT a aan gets In a condition as a result of something in the \ sK . 'yard,'he'is certainly entitled to be paid for`it, ' .; - i`^*iatire.to the Z-rnyc, certainly trained technicians ' ( .should tata the.pictures with adequate chest equipment, and j '.'...tha.. f iIn a "Should'bo' read by a' doctor who hnews what -he sees ., /.* . - . * .* W *V *%* a.**1**.*? -*% CZ ' _** * , A * \ * --- . ' ' *| *- . - * *- - - physician reading _ any -idea what, ha. sees* [ w.'3>/v- `' V '. ' ' ! v.Hi'a interpretation, can' be, erroneous and cf very littIs value -r\v--,; ^ ' .*. ' . * . - i Py. " grbat "deal of time aad'affort: and coney has been runted ca' y-.-'ths part of-; the-7aan: and' aio- on' thr part of the exaaining , .**, >_v-*.%: " *.. * *** , .**...;.**: -- ^v*'**.?' " ' * ** .- . * i. .t r. V* ; " ' . . * ' . *; i ' ' 279 physician and the clerical help and everyone concerned trith dt. ' . . *' .< *. I would like to see specific recomaendations made, or ' at least an amendment made, to these resolutions, hr irking out I the~varioua points that will make the pre-employment or pre- jj placement examination pertinent to the ship industry and pertinent to the industry in general rather than just an -or- dinary examination that trill take up a lot of time and he ' * done in a cursory manner and won't mean anything. * * . DR. RISES: There is- not any argument at all about what the doctor said. I agree on every point, I think. \ | On these recommendations we avoided certain points, ' | ^specific points. Ho matter what you say in specific points j '` * . * J* ~ [ in resolutions, if the physicians themselves who carry on ' . - |1 - those examinations choose to ignore your recommendations, ) ' \m they will do so. .So we felt it was better simply to estab- \ ''' y ` . * ` . -.. |' lish the pre-placement examinations with the thought they I were to he for the best interest of all parties, the workaeni IHt . ' - | the work, and so on, and leave, if necessary, to special J "* . . . ' |---eeamitteca the ,pai liuular points wBEeBTshall he Included in 7's--"v 5 that. physical examination.' - - ' ;'X. would agree- with the doctor that this examination . *. -- j -- . ... ... ' *..*-- 'should he entirely pertinent to shipyard work, and so on. . "'* ' * * **' - # . - * .;.,* . ' . , A . 1 '* *. ; Ao-^to- tho-particular typo of examination, physicians in r.....*ha South, nay want examinations, that we do not need on the .. . :> ... ...-- - v.v; -.. 250 Coast, and so on. 80 we left those out for that reason, 'ffe trill be happy to tahe the doctors1 desire on the thing. Ve feel, in having established pre-placement examination, that that la the thing to do, and that we have gone- a long wayB. The particular point could be "covered' by the e'xamina- tions, I thinh, and can be determined by some other' group, perhaps by the Medical Society group or the Maritime medical advisors, and so forth, in conference with the local medical * directors, if need be* . DR. DRI3XSR: Are there any other comments? I for one should hate to see us at this point detail in the fora of rules the precise examinations that should be given. I do not thiah re need to, and the shortage both of men and physicians is such that it would be a physical impossibility for us to examine to in any way exclude men today. That is ths _ furthest thing . '. .** ,*.' fr, om, , the>. int,ent of anybody, * * v * * ...** . . --BE.- EP22TCSR;.. Doctor, may I ash a question? Gentlemen, . " 4 ** . 1 do not want to mahe this in the form of a recommendation. As a; matter of fact, -I bring it us with great .hesitation /r!'da not 'want''to throw-'a sonh'ey' wrench: in the gears, but it .would.holp.ne-k great deal, and X thinh others, to have a . * few' points' clarified as to-whom, the medical, department i3 ' 'rs):. t ... ' ' ' responsible*.*:;; * \C*i V'** . ' ; T.. . It ./;>'v . '* . . . *...V . . v. * .'.In those yards whsxa wer are functioning* we do not hnew ;K.- -yw,` yyyy , ' * ^whether we areresponsible to..tha insurance company vho pay* *' ,7X our salary or to the Haxitiae Commission or to the management in the yard, or to whoa* Is that out of order? ' . OUIRHASlRIUG: So, 1- is in order. t *, . * ** DR. .SFESC5R! The insurance company pays ay salary on *\ j , ' * *! * . a full tiae basis and I would say roughly 10 percent of ay ~ 1 ,* endeavors are concerned with insurance qnd about 90 percent of ay endeavors should be concerned in natters that do not concern insurance, ' *a . . Horeover,-'I have been embarrassed to discover that neither- the Haritine representative nor the management of thf yard nor-the'insurance company has the remotest idea of who .is going to pay, '4for what, . He need facilities, and I was ^. surprised to-'discover that the -insurance company was prepa-rec * ./ -c.-,.;. ,, . to pay for them*- I got down to the yard and the yard was v . "v1... ... . - .. - ...-* - * . . prgared to pay for^thea, and now the condition has been ; : : raised and nobody is prepared for them* : . DR, DRISESS: '* Thanh you. Dr. fencer, I am going to 'ash Hr, Bing to answer that question.' " ' " - . ' ' There was another'point which, was raised to me. -.1 : .*\.t .'rather confess it rather..horrified ae, ".The representatives - \ .. -' ' .. ! `-froa on'a.yard pointed out in very unalstahabla teraa that I".' "- 'v,'-.-V- *\^*; - ; "J \ `' : ` tha-.insurance agreement --'1 do not neaa that ao a slaa ' .V-'* ! :* ... ;.pgainat tho insurance'ccapunios". at all; it. in not so in- . I : | ;' ^ * * *; /i/w *r. .%'* V; *' "** '* *. v * . "* ' - -* * *. tended'.--but*'the.-insurance agreement with, tho nedical. dfi-- '.partaent specifI cally-prohibited^, the nodical-departaent from / Ph *' * " _. -- : ` . . . is- ^ . ii ' . 228822 ? imni i! ' treat ins anything to ** do with illness or even an accident , , *s 1! that was not industrial in origin* That is. If a nan was I t ( ; ! * * . 1! t; 'i * !i | h !| i! *i i* !* In the plant and began to. have a fever, or something like ! that, the doctor was not supposed to treat hia, and the yard was not supposed to have any obligation to hia, to take hia . * hoae or tats care .of hia, providing the illness or the source of trouble was not industrial in origin. - If that state of affairs is in any way general, it . nct?1ntM**. would sees 'to no it is very much to the interest of the ; Earitine Commission to do something about it, because it is j '` n .' , | certainly out -of line with modern industrial medical prac- j Hi . ii tice* very sorely out of. line. . '. ' 5 i ! ' DE. PEIC2: Hobody has mentioned in these discussions G .' !1 l any specific dangers or hazards or accidents which women ' ' -3 . 5 5 are core liable to* I wonder'if anybody knows'of any par- : .`..-I. - t * N, ' * ' ticular types of accidents or particular types of hazard | *A . whioh result in accident that a,woman is .liable to? If so, \ *% 1nn ~ ` - . I would lihe to know what it is. . . .1 ' . -. 1 In other words, when you j' . ' h .. .i ' examine a woman what- are you going to look for to prevent ! *3 her from, getting hurt and to be assured that what she has - *| ' after" the- injury she''did not hare before the injury. ' '" . . - .. ; .' DE. DEIDEEE: * Could we come back to that,and get this j .'other item off first? V '.Y ' i ' " . V- i #/ ****..** * ...**.* *" . .* <. , 4 T CSAIEIUir EI2G: " I am- very glad that Dr. . ; ' -1 . '-. . * '* , i :* Spencer brought ' .. ; -up'that point*-'* There* are-different'rules prevailing in ' ' * 1)' ' '*. ' - ' . ;.--i - - ' ' .... r - *> `` /. ; ' >' t' - r` *. " .............. ^ .J . ** . i1 i 283' .different States. As far as the shipyard, industry is con. % oerned, it is a hodge-podge. In many of the yards the in- i | . euranoe Hov, ws . carriers *. hare got . - '1 do put the medical department in there. . * ! ii i to wort all that out. We. hare got to "bring it to acme degree~hf~standardilation, as far as the qhip building industry 1b concerned." . I thinb, if it is necessary, we can have a conference with the insurance companies and case to an amicable agree ment as far as the- Maritime Commission is concerned; at any ; It rate, as to sharing any compensation that night be necessary 1! i- l .* # * between the yard and our contractor, which would maie it a reimbursable item* . : \. . "*.*"*. * * .:. thinb'in recent years there has been a very.broad ' " attitude taben by all'insurance companies. The campaigns p 8 they have'carried .on in the public Interest and in the in3 ; terest of public health have been magnificent. I do not- "1 -.thinb it would be in .beeping with that policy to find other ..than, a liberal attitude-being displayed by-the insurance .. _ companies*., and. in.^a yard.* if an injury is compensable or not . ,vv-...'. ~ ** "** - - - I ,"Jvcompensable*,.that" question has nothing to do with the war \ X l* D W *.* ** * ^ "*.* * `. . . . . ` *i " '.-effort* tTe want, the' man treated and we want, him bach to worb .* * -'v at the* earliest* possible moment. b ";*.--*.** 7-*'.-* . - * *** ` * ................................................................................................... ij| - tc quibble, about who. is going, to pay how much- of tho r 200 2S4 bill** It Is a point that is very well taken and it has to he worked out. ' i, * I think that we will have to get in touch with those ! insrurance companies that limit the operations of medical men in the yards-and-through an arrangement that will be ' mutually satisfactory come to a determination as to who will ' share the expense for what, and if all of you here who are faced with these problems will address them to the Maritime ` Commission, we will begin to work on that right away* - * is one point*- ' ' .* That . ! t j . How, with respect to who the medical department head : * * * ***** * . is responsible to: He have here recommendations for minimum ! \ .. *, *. ' standards and among them, as I understand, is that he will _ j ^ . t # * . * t ` b8 responsible to the highest managerial authority or to such person that the highest managerial authority designates* T f think that there is a little quibbling in that*' Of course, S. **.** * . * , . 'we cannot'go out and change the set-up of any company and rearrange its organisation chart* He can, and we intend to, ' - emphasise the importance of the medical department to the ' point "where"" Ifwill not* be hampered ox" fettered in doing .% :-'tha work'that comes'writhin'*its recognized field* He will -0 - - . /- -v*. . ' ; aowft *wTBTytv.nff toward that-end* ',** . , * H V *. * * ** * ' '* . .... ' . * Itoing'tke days to* ccmc whan we have'inspectors in the . **. -*:T*. .*. ' . . . ' * * * * *' . * . * * .. field especially dedicating themselves to health in ship* * * --* * * .' -,*.. .*:.*r.***^i * .,, / 1 . , * Tarda> 'tra Trill run across' iron tine to tine points vhcre 1 285 1 r* *we will get .reports indicating that the aedical department is being haapered or prevented by a poor organizational set up in tho yard froa doing ita full job, fron being given the authority that nust always.run concurrently with responsibil a ity# If they are going to be responsible for the health of K n i! a aillion shipyard workers' welfare, there is one thing that l has-to be true, as sure as the .sun risos in the east and sets j in the treat, and that is that responsibility oust inevitably carry with it sufficient authority whereby the"responsibility can be discharged* That trill be one of our basic tenets. .n jj 2 do not think, however, because of the variety of |t . ' ii patterns of operating organizations that we have in all of ' ' '! ` ' '' . ". -. '` ; . ` the shipyards that tre can fomulate a standard here and say. \ '' ". ? .that tre will regiaent everybody into line and in every . . jj- .plant], regardless'what, the rest of the set-up is, the head p of the aedical departaeat-'will be responsible .to a certain _ jj* person* I think we will have to take that as we sore along,' ii . ... v -r - '- - -- | ' and".I -hope that as we aove out and move around that there *Hi * ` . ` - . a will be no. hesitancy in bringing up those points* ;--l.' thinir will fine as a result of this aeetiag cany ' | ?^aaa trill have'been oppressed,' oany proposals and sugges- ** n - T *. * 'M* ** * * " * - ** * tiona will have been nade"which* we. can take into account ] r.._ later without putlring then into nininna standards* \. -.-I Croft-, suggested senething that la so practical-that ' ;T : ).: Vv; v'-.:-- -v-. '. a*ac^ right with no all.the tine;, that I ".V- .Vv t:1'i--*'- ' '' " *i * . when non are . ceasing in for aa examination -- and ha, I understand, has just in sisted on It and has put in pre-placement examinations . that they ha divided into four classes, A, B, C, and D; ,. ' Class A to he the'perfect physical specimen, capable and available for wort on anything; B, being a physical person . who is capable of doing practically any job in the yard but : /**'*,, , ! who in his past history has a minor condition or a minor ia--' pairaent of his physical structure* You want that mainly for the purposes'of`the record* Class C, I presume, would . be persons who are so incapacitated that they would naturally have to be assigned wort which would.`be limited in bind and : in nature by the incapacity of the individual; .they would be way 'down the line* And I imagine that the Class D would be \. . ." * 'those who are actually uneaployabls. ' .. ; v-: la "that right. Dr.'Croft? .. ' CROP?: Yes-"" .* 'j '! * CKAIBHAH RlaG: How, that is an idea, gentlemen, that -[ . strongly appeals to me* Although we do not have to put ' . * ^ ` * ***- = . j that d.own in our ainiaua standards and bind everyone by it, | it certainly does furnish food for thought, and gives us. j :.nidc' channels 'to ha.ro-cur ai'r.ds operating along.* ` ' -j Dr. Spencer's suggestions'alao give urn, 'and.particularly the llaritiaa-'Cbmaisaioa-and'Havy,. some food for thought with; r'- '' '* .-..respect to insurance orgauihationa that are sot-up in the j *V *'*\ .-"*'*.***'-;. .* **^* ' *".*!* * *k - ' ** ' . _ ** --.yards*.- -`I thinh that'the inevitable result of "this conference . '' 2S7 25a la going to be, both as far as the radical departments are concerned and the safety departments, for ua to focus atten tion upon the Importance of the xesponsibilltiea that have been placed upon the medical heads and the safety heads, and \. .. also ,' to draw attention and . s*t--art relief to * the absolute -- requirement. that correlafTve'-authority oust be given, di- ' , -' .- . ' '- racily in line with the responsibilities involved* ` I degree . hope that this long rambling - answered Dr, Spencer but, if ** * .. discourse has to some ** / it has not, I -Brill be . \ very glad.to go , HE. BSCS: farther* . I want to say _. that in ' handling * insurance in \ \ i , * the yards where the contracts are cost plus fined charges * * * : * or the insurance is reimbursable cost, we have had no dif- *\\ . , ficulty whatsoever in wording cut an arrangement with the : : insurance companies for tha doctors in the yards to treat ; J any case that is sent in-to the'first aid station and for j ,,. * *. * - j .an amicable* arrangement for the division of cost* `j . \ \* *- . .v* / ' *. * * -Ij The-casualty division of the Haritime Commission, I ; "ri"': *' - V.: :* . . i . am sure, -as well as tho Hary insurance division, will cooper - .* ." i &ta to* .arrange for a. proper distribution of the cost of the ! resolution that posoibujr the EI nvy representatives pres err! -y. say .not have, been* clear about, and I would }ust Ilia to :raad' thelast sentence again, that had to do with the essentiality of the medical personnel,* that the essentiality of Haritine and Hary contract shipyard physicians he comparable'with that of Hary Tard physicians while the paramount nature of ., * ship construction shall p re rail;'" That is, we are asking that so Tar as the numbers oT ' personnel concerned go in our contract yards, Hary operated contract yards, that we hare physicians to compare in numbers with what the Hary would hare Tor treatment of civilian - personnel in Hary yards, such as HorTolk, Hare Island, . ` *. '* the like. .' *( and Is that conception clear, gentlemen? l - . DH. BUBTOH: Tes, but our doctors in the Hary yards '' also' hare a certain number of serrice personnel and some dependents to take care of," so I do not know if you can con-'1 Tine the percentage assigned to ciTilian care or not* i ` ' DB*`. BHI3EES:' In the number oT doctors in the Hary yards," say, Haro Island and HorTolk, the number oT doctors Tar ex ,^ * -.ceeds Tor taking care oT cirilian personnel those we hare in the Havy' cuntr act. y arflarnaw, ana ail wwe ask that we be oh : !'Bcaeuhere 'near an>equal. haals* Boes that seem unreasonable?. '*He- .are no*t _ asking Hary"# approval - * y,{* - *^ * . v i' ,** *_ ,* .. * " - . T1 . '. :. sure you understand it* 1 ~ *' of this* now, * ` but I want * ' to b.e t " * * Lv* 6X6 going to ask Hary approval of ..it! Inter,` though^v `* ' ' DR, DP.I32SR: I want to be sure you understand it nor, ' y' . - Dr, Burton bad no part in these resolutions, so it is unfair to dump it in his lap# _ . ' DR. RIE22: That particular reference to the essential ity does not entirely 'desand-the exact numbers. The feeling' is also there that the haritime and Havy contract shipyards may go out and compete with the civilian population on es sentiality, and we feel they should be placed on a relative basis, as far as the need for physicians is concerned, leaving the number of the percent to the procurement division or, at least, placing us on the same footing as other seal-military 4 , organisational The number, of course, is not important. I thinh that would be covered in your minimum standards, but the'particular point I am anxious to see discussed and under stood ia simply that when you get. the ships done, they do not' say, -O.Z., we will give the .physicians to the Army and the - - . . -. . *. : .. ' ' - 5avy, 'and the rest of the world can go hang.* ' i i j .. `: - `, *! ^ CHAIE2ILR .RIRGi hay I ash Dr. Hiehe *a question? As I ' 1 read that resolution, it means to me that we need doctors ' .1 ri privato contract shipyards--w-ith. just- -aa -much degrea~uf-------'.necoasity'aB' ths'Savy. need- thcm in *heir Davy yards.. rot:hjbsb:fjo*:.:/g? vv' " t4 - . ` * ,, . .**7*,' ' **" * ** . .* ** * * JCHAIE21AH RIBGt'' And that in what we are eying; we need thore is to it* S3 s. -''M B * Z30 CHAIHHjLH RIHG: Eow 1b that, Dr* Burton? DH. BURT05: It sounds all right to no#. ' . CHAIHKAS'HIHG: 0 .X. ' ; DR, DRIHXSR: Is there anyone else who wishes to speak . ' either for or against these resolutions? - . CHAIEHAH RI5G: I am always bobbing up on something or other. I was rery, wery much interested In the talk: that. Dr. Folsey saade with respect to the pre-placement examination. How, I want to say once more, you can hare a pre-placsment : - examination or. you donrt . If you are going to . - haTe to hare it now. change this to the point * ^ . where . you -- j i i ! say, "Dherever we want to, or wherover it is deemed desirable, \. * '' . * *t ^ ` ." pre-placement examinations, will be held", you are putting entirely superfluous into these minimum standards, because 1 you are just.reemphasising what you can do now. I think the; ' 'j question ia Bafely before you.; Do you want pre-placement . , * *; ***'," *V . J examinations based upon the standards that can well be pre- !. scribed by tho industrial' health section, the American lied- ' f leal Association,' and with their guidance; do you want them or donrt;you? * ^ .. / If you dohlt want them, throw this thing out' of' there; ; if you want than,'say so,-and donrt quibble about it. J-i ' . ..'D* ' H f* DRIU2JLR: Hr. Hing has made it olaar that the last .... .. ' thing he wants- us to do -is to try to railroad this thing through* *; . .. r 291 DR. RISKS: Stall be subait these and aore that they 3 !l be accepted? H w h . 5 . ` DR. DRIBX2R: . That is in order# ' . ' I. ' DR# PRICE: Dr* Drinber, there is one little point I I : . *31 * ` aight bring up, .1 do not believe there is any'sention in . ; there about worEing with the Procureaent Assignaent 8ervice. : DR. DRIHK2R: XTe hoped the implication was there. e ' are perfectly veil aware we have to go before then, tfe intend to do it* ' ' ' :3 *3 this It |\ *" -- DE# PRICE: I thought that aight be put in. . . DR. DRI2Z2R: ffe have to, go before then regardless resolution*' `* `* Dr. Riohars resolution is up before you now for a of ' I i ' ; i <J rote* J HR. O'CCBHELL: I would liie to ash what .the Haritiae tl V \4 Coaaisaion expects .to do with areas such as the specific 3 one' I aa frca, the Bay area, where the union contract says there shall} be no doctor or physical exanination. ** # % * * : tl : CHAHULLS EISG'i Tou take oare of that in your labor ..^relationn. ` Organic ad labor frOa the 3ay area was invited to' ' ** .-'-#'C-- .* '* ' ;t \ T *'v*~ >\. *.*; i V * * v ;** ' . .; :. * i . ' . ;i -.be here'to express itonlf. Every'one on these labor sanage- ;,y. -i--.-.- .' . : .....-- . * i ;v aent ccsaittoes was invited to-be here*' The opportunity for! .*% ** * . i ** * , .. ~P*saion vac offered than, and we have not heard froa thes_ X;:;: : ..r- - V:: : j" ''at all* : . . ' -- ''-/'I-'- '? ' ... ; "- ' ' ; j j.. y/v If*, it--in dseaed in. the interest of public health*- " * il ... . - v" '-*'*. - .":" \ ?.-"" ` .. . - ' ' ... ..." v .. '| i rla \*w . : 29 `through labor relations, we will taka care of any of those thing's that arise . . . ! (Dr* Drinker hera assumed the Chair.) . CHAIRILLS DRIEEER: A notion is in order in regard to these resolutions* . . * :! - DR. HEIR: I move-they be accepted.' H H * , '" ItTi CHAIRHAH DRIHEER:. It is mowed they be accepted^ Ie there a second? , ' '. DR. GARJIILD: I second the motion. (the notion was put to a rote and was carried unan- '. .. * inoua'ly.) .` ' ; . ii ! CHAIEHAR DRI2JEER: There are two or thres other items ' that I want to ball your attention to, and then I will be \ . ` through* . * * . . ., ' One in that the respirators that we showed you yester- . i! day afternoon are here on this'desk and on display. I an !. sorry we cannot giro any of then away to you, but they are "j ' 4 i there suitably'tagged and labeled and we hope you will ex-- . anine then* , * . *H : ....... ... *' ` .. .' .. .! ; `* _ Tha alneographed outline.dn`lead analyses are alsoarail-- *!iv. '.able to you. 'Some, of you got'then yesterday/ but many of . you did not* 'If tho doctors are interested or if they rant .. ua_to mail' coping to anybody, if they co indicate we will be / glad.to take care of it. ' Thors' are sene corrections on tha i ` *. * i* *...*, . ., . '` '* ; . - . . *. _ ' - ^.. . . .. ; * * ' outlines and we- will take- care of that. ' : ' : *' -*-*- *.*' '* . - .....t V** * ... V-\I* ' v. ' . . ` * < ,,-**. - r * * * " . *" *' "t . ./'*. ' " ' l .1 -* to & .r '9 ' 2-9 3 'tfe Teel Tery strongly that it will be reiy nuch to the interest of the nedical departments in the yards if we hare - f occasional meetings in the various districts and perhaps out of the districts so that a nan fron the Gulf region will neat with somebody from the east coast or the west coast or the Great Lakes occasionally and simply swap information of i ** " a purely technical sort. Such meetings have been taking place successfully in the safety organisations and we know, everyone knows froa his own experience in-technical-natters,: *i that occasionally such nestings would be very profitable, ' and^ we propose to push then forward and do everything we can * \ .* to see that such nestings take place, ,not too often but r ,* * i \ occasionally* ' ' . ' . .. Xf il ' '...I do not think that reqdres any action by this group, ; !. .but we shallnot let the thing drop* ' ~j ! ` IH* __ ` .`The resolutions have been passed* e.can then vote on ` -the adoption of these standards with the corrections which . we went, over briefly first* Ue would like a notion on those standards with the. corrections outlined addsd, and also the -- - j ``J " ^u" ' ;| * ' *. ` * ' ' * , - ` . *' N implications; of- these resolutions ** * * # * ** * , % ^ 1 I , * * s, ^ * * * being appended* *- * * ! ^.TTouId anybody' care' to move that these staaindards be r J . `adopted? .';` ` V-.j.'y.'j1 " . ,. . JEL 2IC. CGTi I so nove* .. ` . ' s t .................._ .. .~ ' V.y.vBB*. HI IX !i i t second the notion* . j..(Ths notion was put to a vote and carried \unanimously.) l  ' CEAIRHAU DRISZZK: Tiers was one other item that cane up at an informal discussion. It la not our Job to tell . the Havy or the Maritime Commission hov to build shins from \ ' ** a technical standpoint, but we canst least pose questions * or suggestions, and one that was made yesterday was in rs- 1 gard to the -reduction of lead paint prior to welding, and we will* take steps in that direction. .- . Another suggestion has been made. that we ash the Havy t I ; to eliminate what the Navy will admit is needless galvaniz- j ing, particularly la certain inside Jobs, such as braces, \ angle brackets, and the like, that you can now see being : * ,galvanized for use in. kitchens and so on, where there is no * * . , j question of .hard* usage or no special corrosion problems froa sea water. It would help us froa the health standpoint and the reduction of ehances of aetal fuae' feYer in welding Jobs, j '.v . ' *'* "" if unnecessary galvanizing.were eliminated. Do jany of you ! j gentlemen have any views on/it? `if there is no objection ; froa any of. you, we will put that question and. thought be- - fore-'the Ha \iy fur^t5e~~buegatioa of the purely Havy : , . --' *: \ . .. .... ' ' ** r *- * r:* .-v? Yards. " :V'V ~ * * r -V * ** .** * * . . ' .. s * *' r .* * .**/.* *.*.**,, . **** ... *"#-**/% r * ` *" *. * . (Hri Ring here assumed the Chair.)- . ; , Contract * . : . CHAIHHAH HEIG-:. As* far as the Radical Department is concerned, I want to congratulate than. This-has been an awfully quick sort of'a 'thing-, tfe cane here yesterday, none of ua knowing the rest of ua who were here, and ve cut  B-2 ' '' - ' 295 our .heads together and we sat down and* we hare done some thing. Thlo is Just`a 8tart. This is Just like charting a course. Xou hare" not covered the Journey yet at all. There are ' going to he obstacles and heartbreaks and discouragements ' as ve go along; that is always the way where progress is in volved. Thereare going to .be times when ve will want to ` . I * consult with one another;. Probably the most important [ thing will be, as far as the Medical Departments are concerned, to take in each area/ say, about seven plants and formulate ' a little intdr-plant interchange o'f views and have the ! medical men meet every month and possibly, if the tine can be * % * . 'found, to. visit a plant in that area once a month. The inter ' change of. information in that way on an informal basis has t' \ ' been, tried and found highly practical. It is strongly # >. A ... * X ; ..*r ' . * , . ` . .. J `1 commended^ to you, that some deal like that be worked out, as ! . .* ^ :*. - '.*** far as.tho Medical Departments are concerned. ! ^j .-...ITow, there is another thing. nhsn ve lay these things 5 , down they are Just scraps of paper until* they' are put in so '. it operation and erecution. ,i : . We_am.not going to via this war," ve are not going to .. * * :'* *' .*_ ' . .- i ^T.-progress* by vlahful thinking, and these things will ; -* * \ ` :V .. . *' * . ; . remain ln_ the realm of wishful thinking until ve get out and ' *i ,%*,*l| : I .something^ about 1th.. ...Shs first step la going to bp .the- -v ./.-'V-V:' '-* * ' . \ ..'* - suonlsalan of them to the. Maritime Commission and to the ,t ; : t aavy, and -if -approval*is. obtained -- and I have every reason * if  . - 296 to' bellsve It will be -- then the promulgation of the aase ' by the Haritine. Commission and the Havy War Contractors, having the Job of building ships for the tvo-organisations. Once that la done vs vill hare our advisors and consultants ih^thfTfield. The Job is yours. You have got to shoulder >the responsibility of carrying these things out. ' You have ' sat down and put your minds together and said, "These are the things that must -be done fron the medical standpoint in these ship yards if ve are to neet the war effort, if ve are .. *' . i to take care of the&an- power problem. . ' > . How,`let us not fail or flag in our efforts. When ve .* get bach to the plants let us remember ' that ve have behind ' ^usthe collective opinion of the.men best qualified in their ** ' respective linesas to what isneeded to speed thiswar . effort tip, and to sake the most- use of the man powerfrom *. .v i * the medical standpoint, and I am' wondering whether or not ve should not give some consideration to coming together **'** * . again in another six months for a two - or three day oonfer- ; -i : ,; enee and finding out where the obstacles'are that ve have . . / . *.** .' * ... i Bo^t-bee-n^ able to .overcome, finding out -where, -Iff anywhere,--------7 these standards do not'work out practically when we seek to \ applT them. \ There are going to be cany cases such as that. ' **.*"*. .**',. #*-* * .* * *- We are going to have to*be flaxibla at times. Ve are going - " ` r . - to have to adapt ourselves.* .But X would like to have an * ' expression, from, those here -- and 1 do' not want it on the ! ! ' . 'i 'basis of ve are Just going to come together and tali for the i t fun of it -- but I vould Hie to inov whether you thinh it i; jl . * ' * i ' & practical and coomonsense thing to try these out fcr sis fi . " ' p months and then get together again and put our heads togethe. ii ' ,, j; and find out how they are working out, how the inspection se. ;> " jj rice and the consulting service is working out, 'whether you * * L * . * - l are getting enough help from tbs Government Offices that you need them from, `and all of these things that go into the ii ' picture, l ' I would like to have some emression from the ' * " ' 5 -floor on that, .' - i -, . * `- v. \ jj.* EH, 'FLUKEH; Haie it only three 'months from now. 4*' . ' ' * ** . ; CEAIKHAS BING-; Three months is suggested. * * _ ' . HE, bOODELL: Hay I ask hov long it may take to have this adopted, if it is adopted by the Maritime Commission? 7. 'CHAXRHAH HIHG: It would be by the first of January, X hopel Wy-r C'- ' ::;ir .? ` ^^..'.Hho thinks three months "is "ho go oo? ^ .* * * ^ . J *.'* 7' ~ Vko thinks the idea is no good? Iftind up and yell. ' .V''*7y^.v ht-.lt ba -recorded--therg va-grstark sU'en'ogi--------. tfCOEELLr IT" think you better leave it that if afte ...j .v**-t"'* ** .'v --I-- . * ** ` " ' `` ir opinio is rather difficult to "set* a date at this moment. * *.'*>*> * *m. . 4 /I v- IC2AIR2IAI1 RHIG:' tfe'won't set-a date'at the moment, but ' '* 'fi -'we'will have it in the'back of our minds, that along about ' . " '. * 2S6: . j-5 three months from now ve vill get together and see hex these things are functioning, if that is agreeable to all.of you* J take it it is* . _ ' ' I want to express to you all here the very deep -b- appreciation for the way you-Jhave done this Job. It does something inside of me to see aen come from all places all around and wholeheartedly and unselfishly devote themselves * `. I to promoting the interests of their country. I feel it very' , keenly, 'and I want you to know I feel it very keenly. I , * think that the type of spirit that is- shown here is the * * : surest guarantee and the realest insurance that there `is - . * ' . nobody that will ever lick us, because when ve do get our *` ; 'heads together and get going ve throw all sense of self out ` of it. ffe attack a problem- as a problem and ve will put it .across, and 1 thank you all very very much* . ! **.. Sow Jack Volff has about another half hour that he ! . *."* 4 * ** would like to talk to you about things that he says every ... '.*' * *.* * * 'body in' the' convention has been pressing him to talk about. ? .'Whether that is so or not, I do not know. I do not want -to ---tresrass-oa y-onr Inifnl ranee to too great an 'extent. I think . ha iaa some'ideas'about the job "of instructor training and ! "f.'-'* J' i * . *! .... supervisory conferences that he believes, and incidentally I .V.. ..-.-v ... .^. _ ; ~\ . . . .: 'v beliava, are`very valuable*. '' . ' 'r '.is.there, anybody hare' that would rather not hear Jack * .*/ 'V *. v.*; .* \; **.*"'. ** ..-tfolff talk for a half an hour now, and who would rather ' **% - , .\ . I b . B-6 : 299 : " postpone the agony until, say, about tvo-thirty? Do you i**. . &ind hearing hin at 2:30? * _ (* Thera vere cries of ,Uo, *.) . . CE4ERHAN Ve will then make it a special order of business at 2:30 after you have fortified yourselves"vith gone Internal vitamins. . In keeping with our general policy not to fatigue the mentalities of those vho are engaged in intensive effort, I vender if it would not be in order now to take a recesfe * until tvo o'clock, when ve hope that the safety men, vho l i are supposed to be the practical ones here. Will have finally . come to an agreement upon their standards. Jfl ,A . . f ': . ' Is there anj objection to recessing now until tvo : o'clock? Hearing.none,'it is so ordered. *' ' ' _ (thereupon, a recess was taken until 2:00 o'.clock p..a,, Deo ember 8th,. i942v) ' . - 1- *-- *- . ' k ' ii . nft *-1 * .* "sI : :-r .. . 5 ` .` * *.*..' ; * * -* .' 4 . . *> IT:; - " . ' *-. , .. . -* . ... ' .' . ,,- ' I w " | . * * * # . k ^ , , ,, J-*.* * * VA J * ** iTjC* *, . . J J. . * ; ^ * :'*** *' JtT * V* ..r'*./ ** ' " ***^ *` . ' \ t I {, *i Com. .2/8 o u u .. . AFTER RECESS - Tuesday, Deo ember 8,. 1942, ' ' 2:00 oTclock'p.m. Ur* Daniel 5. Ring, presiding. ` ( / v CHAIRMAN RI}&: Is- the Safety Department ready to re- . port on the minimum standards? ' ; i : ' UR. ROSES.: The. Safety Division Is making its final re port* la it your pleasure that any additions which were made * . j ' this morning be covered, or will you aoeept tha report of ' * ., ' | the committee as complete? covered? ' \ How many would like to have them *- *I " .\ *. *. * | ` : I take it, than, that you will aooept the report of the : J ** . . t, . * , _i committee* .. ` .' . ' | .* .. j Wc have gone o.ver this from 9.51 to the end; that is, ; . * .* . *. i `from page 11- to .page 18,' and have made a number of. additional! *.'** ** . i * *' suggestions which have been'*inolnded. There have been some 1 minor changes in wordings.'- There have been no major changes. ,, 2 make a notion, therefore, that the report of the . -Safnty.'frnn^l^a^'Vo accepted^, ' ` '' . V--I\ (The motion'was'seconded, put to a vot a and carried * '**V- .. . %. *!! - "1; . un* a.nimous' l.y.)^ , ,i:* //,-i' ';*'T,.V'. * ..Y-* r-*: * * '/' '/_ .HDCESi . Hay X'at'thin tina! thank all of you for you n*> efforts^' and', your ainccre wori ia'correcting and forrulatin *.** . *.v* . V*. - f/V/*; .it. :-thea^`minimum standards. w V. i v. * ' . * .* T think they are going to do a got S Job for the American shipbuilding Industry In preventIng acoidents. ' .' 'CHAIRMAN RI2&: . ` I think Hr. Rooho should thank you. | -i In ` his palmiest days old Joe Cannon never railroaded anything -' ! I through sc snoothly. ' I don't know what is the natter with : .' you. . ' _' It was Just a pig in~a poke-and you approved it. How-----. '1 ever* there was a very representative oonnittee working on ! that* and I presuno it will have to stand. *. . . * ; I . I have a 'few announcements to sake. Cne is that I am ** * * ... * . _* , 1 I i obliged to absent myself until 3:00 olclock* and before going ! i I want to say to every one of you again how deeply I appreoi- ; \ ' ' . ' 1 ' ate. on behalf of the American Maritime Commission and the I'-. - .. .. j. j I | Navy* all that every one hers has done. I hope that in three months or so*, when we'get together again* we will find .that J what we have .outlined as' our course has been followed* shS" > . that the speed which has been prescribed* which- is the mas-' J. . . ,* . .t | . fmuia speed of which we all are oapable* will have' been '' 8 achieved in all respects.- ' ' ' ' |. Thai- second thing I. want to say is ' because there have ;Lboen: a number of;request* ~.if'- it'..is' the desire that'anyone' ; .| -havw' a complete stenographic' transcript' of these' minute's, you | jcan; sake, arrangements' with the' official stenographer for the j '5. .. anno.:. That* docs' act mean that tha* arrang omenta will be lln--` " J-^itod to'dimply'ordering then.- Share are' othor. .requirements j tH.'_.fall' upon your'4 shoulders*: ' X.'suppoac ycu* get what I ' * fu 302: aean* The question'on reimbursable la exoluded from this. I i hare not got my fiscal adviser here, . ( ' ** 'i | X cant to say one other thing. We do net want to forget K. ` ' ' | that the Job of the- Medioal Department and Safety is basically I a Job of management. The Maritime Commission and the Navy are i' jj la this.ploture primarily to advise and oonsult with manage- : S j* j ment with respeot to. those funotlons* Those functions, how- . '* ever, are responsibility of management, and you must not go i away from here understanding anything other than that. It is l. s your Job to maintain the production at,the highest possible > h* 3' '* *. i 1 H' peak through the proper medloal attention that is to be given 3- ' '. . J the men through taking the proper safety precautions. It is ! !i . i the Job of ths yards. We are going to be available to consult and advise with, as Ur. Eoche so eloquently put it, if neces-1 ' * . ; f H *. .. | . c -'city forces our cooperation upon you. .. How,' that does not de-; ' 'traot from the faot that basioally.it is not a Maritime Com- ; \ -..i' mission or the NavyTs .Job to assume any management function. \ 3 .. =; v; - = * ' " 'p It ;is-still operating on the basis that sahagement has respon- should register here* , y -i . -- f. .r.f-. ... .- . . p -v ; -- .- :,b ` . - - *. - vr .... . - /.^.rirowa. tonight in'Washington'.there is.'a dinner being given: ^ * s'* '* t ^ *4'. * .***,. *' * * ' | 'by the Anerio'an Hus cum at Safety, which you know has been the f ' .having spirit/in this, and a number of guards will, be made.-'; ! I .* - 7. '. . -" .I-.- ; - . :- v. ?=:* . v.One of those, award& will'- b'o. made. to. Admiral .Land, 'T-r* J I the. head of i .. I ! If . - 0U3 I the Karltime Commission. It was with the full appeal of >..V` : | Admiral Land that the conference was put Into operation, and ' I would feel especially pleased If the conference oould do ce one favor before I have to leave, and that Is to delegate me ' the authority to send a letter or a telegram, rather,--tar'that' *' `' i meeting tonight, where it oan be read, stating that the ship-' building Industry, as represented by the men who are conoemed with the health and safety of shipyard workers, have adopted ' these minimum standards here -and that we want to express at : * . j this time the appreciation, which I hope all of you feel, for' - j the sincere and deep Interest that Admiral Land has.taken in j * * % the'safety andhealth program, and to send tohis our con- i* ! . \\ gratulatlona upon his receiving thesafety , medal, " . 1 j j - Will anybody offer a motion to that effect? ` _ KR. GRAEAH: I move- to that effect, .. (Ihe motion was aeoonded, put to'a vote and carried C! : i( 'H ill ; t' unanimously,) .. ' CEA1RU.AII RING: I think I oan now safely turn this meet ing over first'to Jack Wolff, who will impose'upon your in-- . ..... | .dulgence and. patience for about half an hour on Job lnatruo-- : ' ' * . .".*"* '* . . . . I tion training, and st the. opecific request of John- Roche, who; iMl. oaaa to me and asked aa a speoial favor * *,"*"* * a ..recognition before the meeting* and make ' * ' that I aocord him * . the presiding ! *I ; i '^trioer ta wind the whole thing up. llrj Roche was very. e&-* ; phatic- along'that line, because he wanta-to have, the direction caj" have something here tod.37 that Bill be suitable genersll tor wear. ' However, we talked yesterday about the difference in shape- between a nan and a woman. Very definitely manu facturers of alothing for women shipyard workers should be apprised-of the faot that there is a difference between a ns and a women in the way of physical construction, and "that no only should the hips he cade wider in comparison wi tah Vh e waist, but'there are oertain alterations that should be cade at the shoulders and about the bust so that women are not ex a* posed to the alleged funny remarks of some of the men ih the 'shipyards. ' . ` ' . ** * ' 5Te talked a little bit yesterday too about the fast die I'think very definitely we should call for fast dies in all, .. \. *. working olothing tor women, most particularly becad-se- women -V : ' - : ' . .. do.; shave- under-their arms, and because there is a definite .need for-what I .think are oalled dressshields, either built '-.-.jV -.jr- ..into' the garments or supplied in addition to the garments, prevent possible dermatitis under the arms. *' : Some . studies .have been made of the so-called average r-gemaa-e-'-feavb tsome tlguj^-av^-lab-le-gdv-iag--the 1 ength--of /--*y * ; v *T* . . > . .vwcaanTa.legs>- the'various measurements that you take fcr a ;--.wcaani. ad these should he #made available, and I am sure we v v * ry. vvT" . * ** .**-<v/-v* - ; .. '. .: - * * * \ '.can get the'figures from the manufacturers. who have develop * *... '.** #'* #***1 * ** * ** ^ ^ `i ** * . than*-.'Thay-ohomli bo made available from all manufacturers -V" *. # ,. .. .* - vr'* V*" ' . . * " . ' ' c.sq whoa: ue-. get'standard garments, when- you give a woman a sol; else 14, she should knew that she is getting socethlug tha l is- going to fit her, because there is considerable differs:! between various manufacturers as to Just exactly what sire :j is. '. ' There are certain other points I would like -to hear d: cussion from the floor on. For example, should womenT's ove *. alls have cuffs; should she wear overalls; should she wear pants and Jackets; 'should she wear trousers under the welds leathers? .If so, what kind? Is. the ordinary slack advisab or should she go out and purchase a pair of khaki or blue denim trousers? What materials are best suited for womenTs overalls? What kind of headwear should she wear, assuming, !i ' - * i oourse,- where they are exposed to a falling objeot hazard -hi: - . ' .* I they wear hard hats? What kind of safety shoes should she i ** ' . * | * * - . j wear? As. you know* many women are now wearing menTs safety ; ' ' " *" i. ' , ** * , ,i * 4. i ..shoes, and the reason may be she cannot get women7a safety | shoes in the territory: she is located in,'or maybe it is be- .' ** cause they do not like the- existing womenTs shoes, . ' Bow, those are a few of the points that we would- like 1 t. .* - ,* * ( * . 4 ' some information on* : ~ --1-------------:----------------------------------------------r 'Let us first take up; Shall she or shall she not have * * * * **# ' " # * . m * '"'cuffa on the trousers7 "B hah is your pleasure?1 * - SEVERAL 70IC2S: They should not haveu ' "" /. '-OHAIFJIAB ROCHE: ` trousers, ` They should not have cuffs on their --.il?v. ' - *' . ' ' Se / 307 All right, then., It Is definite that they eheuld net : have cuffs on their trousers. Shat la your pleasure; should - they wear coveralls or two-piece garments, or should both be i available, and why7 We would like to have some volunteers. '*i '* * j Ur. Anderson* how about you7 . Shall a woman wear two-pieoe . , garments* or shall they be coverall type, or both,, and, why7 . . ' r. Are there any women In your yard? ' .. '' ] HR. AHDER8GK: Very few., ` . ! : 4 CEAIRHAK HOCEZ: All right, Then you have no opinion on \ that, Tho Is going to Volunteer an opinion? ' j ,*1 \ *1 J* # '* ; MR. FRAZ-laR: In our yard the. women wear both, but in cur t -! area, that is,'in the immediate.vicinity of Houston* it is ' 1: .. . : ! j found best to wear the coverall type. That particular garment ! has been found satisfactory and has proved itself as satis-- factory, and the women in our yards wear the coverall type. j i ; CEAIRMAH. RCCE2: - Does that also go for the welders and i ' . . . ** . * burners? "V v.\ ` . . * :. f:-. *i ; \` ' 'MR. FRAZIER: Zes, *. ; - .. . ' T :v v* -! 3A . * HR. JOKES; - We have some two hundred women now and it .. . ' 3 seems to be the consensus of the `women that the coverall type is most comfortable, 'and they seen to like it best* - :' . CHAIHHAKtROCHEAre phere any other experiences on that? 3 ;| ' Udell Haydon has. diseased about sixteen hundred women, j and he ought to have 'some idea,' v : 2V--.'-`V 1 ` HR. J*. IU E1ZDCU:-- TTc started out. with about sixteen. " and we were paying that we would not have any nore than that, we ended izp wi ^h ahout a lx een hundred# * * We followed out the example of using the coverall, he- oause they had more freedom In their arms* We recommended underneath the ooverall a sweatshirt that would keep then P; from getting oold, beoause it is very drafty on boss'd ship, 5. j. and the wocea are always working aboard ship. They are using u J; slacks ^nderneath the ooveralls, if they have them, which | works out pretty well* * . .. I aa not getting up here to tell you how to dress six- * < ,. teen hundred women, but the faot is' that those we have got S * i "* , <* . "* 3 are using at .the present tine sonething heavier than that in iii .* . ** ' . . * . ** . >, l this ooverall shape, and it does away with Hr, Roch.e*s idea ' | of pulling up their pants all the tine, beoauae they do not !'|.have to* '> I'. The safety shoe problem cane up, and`they found the ' n ' ' *- 'A -** .*'** '*'**'** - * | snalleat of the safety shoes was entirely too heavy, and the; 5 shied" away fron then* Finally they were buying boysT shoes * ~ * * * * ` * ,, * ` * *, V* * *' * -* ' . I with the heavy soles* and high heels; that is, the medium sir *"* *,*v***w*.>**. 1/#*/* 7 *. *,v. *.y, i, */ *"* **" ** * *' * ' * t *. * [heels,' and not having any information froa headquarters oc n b t : 'JL ' . 1 ~r i r Tn * . -*_ '* ; - . * * *- ' C`Tito dress then, we had to use our own netliud-a--aad--la.t_them p:' 4 * *1. . . *; ./** . Y.."...........Ci* * * --*. * ** them cut,' and I believe the. women. should be consulted, our ?l.|wonea. supervisors, .nxd"thc.dean.[of women in, tha yards- abaci 4 4> ; 10e S : _ 309 they are working with sen la the yards. We have found out that If we let then have something to say about It, we have a pretty good average of what they should wear to protect then , selves whenworklhg'Ln .. .` CEAIPJIAN ROCHE: the yard. ! *' w Thank you wry nuch. Hr. Eaydon. . That adds quite a lot to the discussion. I agree with Ur. Kaydoa ** that you should keep la touch with the women. The women will i * object, naturally, . * /. then how to dress. to having men ` ' . . Invade their field and tell ! . \ ! *i * ` , ! I do not think we cantalk about styling as such.' In ; '' * ' ,- other words, what do we care about what garment may be, al~ * . . , . * . i ` i \though, as has been suggested, blue and khaki are aooeptable r.- ii . .colors* In aircraft factories, munition, plants and machine 'j 7 .- :-r ' u-.v-.-i-vf.; * . | shops,and. so on, there-is considerable styling and there is-" some color worked into these women^s garments* . .j ' 7or 'example., a littie'while later you will see some gar-' h ' .. *. * .. * V-_. ' .. " .* '?y .U ` ", - ... * -* * * ' " . ments that were styled by a nationally known figure, Lily .| ; ..-Daohe, whioix ware styled for a specific company and sold to . * i*. v* ."nationally known, stylist* V .7''' .7,. . '' ** /*t%'*>* *"t**v *-*'.* ***.-. 4. .* **' , - V'v i-l-.X. do not think we will, have that problem in. the 'ship*- ! .-yards,'because-IT' there`ic any style la a. ah ip yard work gar-- t r.; .......' * * * ~v *# %*.** * *** --'*'?*>. \,,v *%l- 7.*** ' *' .* . . ;" * ' ' * * neat, the first tine'a-woman, goes into the tanks, or lays .*'* V * *j. . * .i* ' *.*^#,V.. *****,, y tj * *J*;m . *.*- . t , . ***. / ; .i*> I on any-br'the places to.da their welding, the style 1* ;* .*/. "win* Wrr >ia ....* - . ... : ' .. . I i II ! j i . O-fc. u Now, there are a couple of other points -that have been brought up, and.I would like to bring them to your att en` < j and perhaps we should nake recommendations to the nsnufactur- dK era. 'll ~ . In your opinion, Is there any necessity for protection j of the breasts of woaen la the work garaent, and if so, ! , ; . V ** ' ' ` L; should it be built into the garaent, or should it be- separate I' i- protection? That is a question that has arisen. As a oat- il I ter of fact. Dr. Euhn brought that up yesterday. Have you *. * *. 3 any opinion on that natter,especially the medical nen who'nay I. . . - ' be here. _ .. . 5 DR- SESSIONS: I think they should be separate. . I- 'i that should be individual* _ ' I think _ ' CHAIRHAH ROCHE: Do you think it is definitely needed? | ' V v DR. SESSIONS: It is in some cases, yes, but -I do not . 5 think it' should be built Into the garment* . . CHAULHAN ROCHE: All right, separate proteotion,' then. * . * ' * . ' * | Has any other doctor here any opinion on that? Ear about a .- ' |' 'the safety engineers? . .. ' * ' . '. ._/; TTFTr a_' P"rr*t yy,u tb* t ^vi apr ir *. j T charge of the yard should decide what they should wear; that , I"''it la an'individual natter? * ' . . _ , . VJv** '' " ":r| ... i'CEAIR2AH ROCHE: . .Xott'aean in the way of protection?.' -' *'1** ` IS*. SESSIONS:' That _ is'"right* / " 1/ ' '* ' gH&TwgAW ROCHE:'. It la all right, but we first have'to K 12a 811 aake tiie material available, and it is not available now. SR. GRAHAM: Then we should get to the point of deciding > . _ = what material should be used, is that right? ' CEAIRMAN ROCHE: Let us find out first if in the opinion of the-med-ioal men If protection is advisable and, if it is, let us take steps to see it is Bade available. DR. ADAMS: We have not as yet very many women in our organisation, but speaking in general, and from several years of general practice before I went into this particular phase of the game, the majority of the women in my opinion need ' protection* They do not need the style that is, advertised in ( il* I! .the magazines for the youngaters. They need the uplift type, a3 * V- ' .1* \. .***' ** * * ** * ** 'principally, that you find in a lot of the matrons brassieres .5 '*** .. . . ' .j 'i - that are on the market, and I do not think you are going to !( Vtl 3 have provide special materials, because those are easily , ; * * '* available* . . . ; '4, v*w. v . . * ' '* . - ` .' . ' ' ;' * .'*-*' 1 *. * '. ' * - ` - . " - * . ' -. "!; .j 'I .. . \'CHAIRMAN ROCHE: In other words, it is net a question of padding; it is a question of uplift? .BE*- ADAMS:.' Support, yes*'- . . !. ,* 1 * yvj*;../, * ... . *vr. **_.* `v *`y\m * ` ,', < _ .; '.T.'-CHAlRgAR ROCEE:_We have finished with-that, and we will; .'pass.oh to something else*Ton. have seen a number of the j t .garment a, and you have seen 'the material, and obviously some V'; cf" thesE-aro- tod light for' shipyard work* What ia your pleasur ^ .... **..* . .................... *-* - C oa -kthat`score;'* should ww recommend-the regular overall _ type ; : cloth, which is called denim, or the type they build their j 31 2 khaki trousers of? HR. TOODSLL: There has been a gament developed which la sade of a sky blue cloth. It sells for considerably cere than these* but apparently the glrla seen to like then, and are billing to pay_eare for the material. They are eater- proof* in a wool gabardine^ ' UR. STRIPLING: The deals cloth Is without doubt the thing that fits our situation. As a rule that heavier doth Is not needed, and that denis cloth la the only thing that 2 will stand the wear and tear. We have 80 many there that i* . * j ' ; oare eo such sore about their beauty that they are wearing . :| - It snake skin.-- which is out of the question -- "that as soon, as a .1 ; ' . * * " . *\ -nI we get the denis it will be better for the production. . it e ii: . CHAIRUAN RCCHS.- Up to. now we have found that there la H*. bs r need far garsents. that are heavy enough to withstand the wor . I. .. ... ... . ... .. .. jj X think* we can work that" out with.the manufacturers. They 7' should be styled to fit .the figure of.a wosan, cuffless, - . I . ' jj and I presume that goes-for sleeves as. well as for trouaer ! legs* -- either two-piece or*one--piece, depending upon the ; .j t ;* T---3-t--------- :---------:-----------=----------------------------------------------- -- ' *. * * *w..* - **'* **.<. .* * r *-.* % * ' * ` I desires^of the woman, herself,.. and. the dress shields shall be Y , supplied-either separata or attached. Also, the dies used j . shall bo fact, ' . ... bumarsQ clothing have had several . . . ..... ......... .. _ ........ .. . _ J ' fatalities- among sen*, hut not among women*.' as far. aa X know* 14e * u X7 0u H as yet. Xa it your opinion that the olothing of burners be u i flameproof? . .` * ' -- EH. ADAUS: My personal opinion is very definitely that should be done in that way* Before I went with this presen* ' , organisation I had a man in- a--private industry that spilled jj `mineral spirits over his trouser leg. Thirty minutes later E '' - ` :i 'he happened to do a little spot welding and a spark dropped over and ignited his trousers and he was laid up for about s If! -J five months. Very definitely it should be flameproof. CHAIRMAN ROCHE; Tour suggestion is not only for the women but for the men too? BE. ADAMSi Tea* * . .. \ . ; --.'-ME. TEERE: We have a regular process of. having printec i . a booklet by craft of recommended clothing for, women. Natur I';'-ally, ` after we find out'more things and-get more information | we will have to revise that booh, but in that we have very" ' I . definitely not recommended but said that women welders and :` . ' . \ `j- `.burners must, wear 'woolen garments and not cotton. We have ` | reoommended also-that* they wear a turtle neck sweater, which -.*. -.j . *. ' "' ^'proteofa their, neck and protects'.them from ssppaarks going dovr * 'N: K ,* V cjnr- I'"".- ?'* . / '.``` But :as c is ooncerr i-- 4, * ?" concentrated morn on having than in this-.kind- of .weather -?- . "* '*. * * * vf. .* .*' t"*At ,#i*. , v '* . ', f " ;v a .....v.-n^T--*:* **! *..**- * ; .* * H - . wear wars .underwear, ` long underwear, long underwear-pref era? . - :*'.* . . . i.. `.**'.-^1*..>.., . . .. * ** ^ H^ E.:'*t JO N` ES t .:-i fh e hair,o?- f. : th* e >* women. * * ha a ' co,, ncerned se: cmi* .. -- *. . , 16a , * * i * , I o- 1 0.1 1 ; to manufacturers* l ,% DR. ADAUS: I agree with this gentleman. In faot, he \ J* '* also81 tool; the words out of my mouth. I an from Tanoa. 1 This past summer we had three days where It was-101--In 'the l * * * 1 shade. Of course, out In Texas *lt gets higher than that, anc 1 4 you certainly would not find many women running around with \ longlea on in the .summertine. So my`suggestion is to adopt 1 the uniform suggestions for these garments and have, possibly. * i.1l two weights, a lighter weight for the southern climate and 1* an overall weight for the general cooler climates, and then ' . l4: in extreme cold use your heavy undergarments. . -. CEAlRUAtf RQCE2: That is very good* Xou may remember in the standards that we suggested that in the warmer area flame . l44! 3 >' 1 proof cotton might be found satisfactory in place of wool, ar.c f> * it has been in some plaoes, so let us nake that a part of-our* < It recommendation to manufacturers in the warmer areas* : 4 i J . How, I notice in the Chicago Daily News today something ` i which was said yesterday was reported seriously, and should ... i* . ! have been* As you know, men are prone to fool around; we.all' - * . . . , :*M do. It is the question of drop seats on women*a overalls, . * . - .* '* *. :> \ J. '/ * . . ; have had several cases where men have been guilty of dropping * *f rivets down the top of the drop seats which are not fastened *i * i across the top," and I think: we will agree seme such construe- ** ! tion is definitely needed,, not only for the welders * overalls-, .. \* l but the solders * loathcroi. `I think we should rec-* * - "  316 : manufacturers where drop seats are provided that they be ' fastened across the belt* or- some possible means of closing be made to prevent Just such occurrences* Have you any opinion on that? . ____________________________________:------------------------+- 'If there is no comment* we will let It go at that and . suggest that positive closure .means be provided* ' * ^ I* know these things Beem silly to be talking abo ut, but they are highly important* Accidents have happened because i ! * of .them, and considerable time may be lost, where garments .* #* * of the proper type are not.being supplied. '. .! * ; Has anyone else anything they would like to suggest as > . . * * s necessary for the body- clothing of the women? That is, the i ' i- \ overalls? We are not worrying about the long?.underwear. They ; ' ' ' will .wear that anyway if it is cold* ' t j How about hate, -or should there be any.hats? Should j women exposed to falling objects wear* hard hats? ` *. ~ !' HR. HATH: _ Definitely, . . | ' " CEAIRHAN ROCHZ; Should there be anything under the hat? HR. -HATij Bandannas* ` .' | i' ' CHAXR2A2T ROCHE: ' Bandannas have, been suggested, to be i - ' 1- ' T *'. ` . i wrapped closely around the head* - j; : - / * - * ; j i i ] HR. JCUZS: Does that answer ay question, Just, bandannas? . ij .. ClilRIlAIT RCCZBi. 'That has been done* He- have several :i" - . V.v- . ** r' ' . ' . !j nodcla of hats .coming here, but they cannot be worn under ' : li hard hats. Xbu fellows -up in the snow Country know what It 18e < .1I ; . oc* il/-- means to near a bard bat on a cold winter*s day, so even the men in the odder olimatea wear something to protect their heads. Usually, not non; of oourse, but they used to wear a a Hi stocking oui. off .at Lite Lup aud ti< ;d-t11-e--kno tT--and- it did give considerable proteotion against the weather, but " -i the women are principally concerned with keeping dirt out of their hair* 'We are oonoerned with-that too, but we are also concerned with keeping women*a hair out of- the machinery 'and ' ,, * * t, from, being smashed. Now, bandannas are satisfactory, although a skull cap may be considered Satisfactory. Have you any ' opinions on that matter? Nothing has been designed-as yet, .as far as I know. Are there any suggestions? -i ` UR.' STRIPLING: For welding there has been one designed. It la leather that comes down over the ears and over the back ' of * the head, that fits underneath the hard hat, I think that 1 is put out by the American Optical Company. .- . HR. PACKARD: I know we are Just venturing into the .; - ` ' far as' '' . . female field* as/welders and burners are concerned, and a great share of our- women are buying these railroad engineers* hats . ,i, . 11 * \ ***% ... 1 .1 t *"* * and wearing those underneath .the hard hats, and`that-works * very nioely, and it is big enough to hold up their hair, if they hava too .much, of ocurac. . .... ' . -S . % % CEAIS2AB RCCESt "Did you*all hear that?. Hr. Packard **.*..*.*.#* .* , *. . -said that out-in/his company they are buying railroad engines: ' -'H * - * * ' . " * * /. * ml - `\ ^ . ' ; -' * * . VI hat a and', wearing those underneath the hard hats and they are / & 19 e 4 / ....; IV ' . Si * {. \% big enough to contain all the hair -and give sufficient pro- ' *' . * s * teotion. That gives sufficient warmth. It does get a little ' ` I. chilly, you know, out in his aeotion of' the-country once in a * while, ** `. ; | H ' MR. FRAZIZR: tfomen in our-yard have found satisfactory ' ]' a net type which comes around and* ties in front. li It is like ! *. j a bandanna, but it is not as bulky. They like it very much. : 3 . .. ; J, ' t ; !j We have very few women. ` I received samples of it when I was ; in Chicago and tried it out, and it is very Inexpensive and iui cost8 20' cents apiece, and is out of the way. j . ' !; . ' CHAIRMAN RCCEE: Does that settle the question of hats? a -Eow about 'safety sho.es; what have you got to say about f .. . . ; ij\'womenTs safety shoes? I have noticed all over the Country ij . ' ' ' . !j women are- wearing men^s safety shoes, for some reason. tI- f of them oomplain they bother their feet. i . ... ' . - '' . j| What is your j pleasure? Do any of you know anything wrong with them? 5 . . ' !j ' .MR.. SZ2TDALL: , Tell then to wear heavy socks. 5 ` ` '. hosJ -- . * i | J ! jl * .; CHAIRMAN ROCHE: .Have you any comments .to make on women's \" . '' - i !j shoes that should be given to the nanufaoturers? Should they, >i '. ' . - ' . ' -j | jbe the high type shoes or.the type we exhibited oyer here? j ' ,i,i * : ' ' " t ' -* * V-N.' .__ i * . ' !i ii - hH. FRAZIZR: As far as the shoes'are concerned, perhans' l. ... \ v ( -, _ ." j| they should not be the low type. That is all right for the | 3- ' n ordinary work women* but for the .welders thay should have x ; tan-inch prong- type boot made with a clasp across-the inatep .to keep it cr M " '....V; 2Qe 319 ; . CEAlBiLAK HCCHS: The idea of the high boot la ' that ** * * > ; welding sparks do not drop into the top of the shoe. If 7ou *i * * _ .* ] have had that happen you know it is not a very nioe experience. l3i. ZKAZEUl--Th a-jaea._ln._the--Hou-sto n yard-ar e- uain g--the-- T ~spat-s, which are proving fairly successful, but the women do ' `* ** t not like then. The ten-inoh top boot is the best and by that 7 you eliminate the laoe type, in which the sparks lodge. ' ^ : CHAIRMAN ROCHZ: We have one suggestion, then, that in } stead of safety ahoea we have safety boots.- TThat is your 1 , $; * l opinion on these spats and shoes compared to boots? Does j* ; everybody think spats are satisfactory? * ; * .' ^ 1 ii \ t' w ' (There sere several members of the audience who ' '"* said3 *Ho.*) ' * . . . , ` " ' .** ,. . . ' CHAHHitAy EOCEZ: As a matter of fact, I have heard con- t .. - ' .: h siderable complaint about them. One point came up here yes- ! "i * . ' ***. * . ** 3 terday. 'One of the.men .present talked about sparks* This " : \ goes not only for'Trcaen,' tut for men too; and sparks fre- : a quently drop down into the gauntlet of the glove and they -; i,' suffer a lot of bums, and it was suggested that we get some sort of a euff inside-the garment, a glove- closed with j V;j elastic, that would make a Joint, around the top of the welder*1 s* 3 .j{. cr burner1 a sleeve that--would prevent that- Have any of them . p / had bums of that sort? 'Ecu many have had those cases? -Raise v'jj" ' your hand- . X.-see. one*' v-i.' ! j D2. RZZXZ:- Slight'burna are \ery common -the wrist, in- 21 e 5 Sty \ . ;* ' t'' . V ; aide the shoes, and In the ear oanals. Those, In our ex- . . . ; perlenae are the commonest of slag burns. They are happen- ] lng every day, no matter what we are using, so far. So we / 1--ar--open--to--suggestions*.--_--:--------------------------------=---------------------: ' ,* . *" - ** * ;! CHAIRMAN ROCHE: Dr. Adana, what do you think of that? m : DR. ADAMS; I cannot say I have had enough welders as > ;; * yet to get many of these superficial burns.. The question has arisen in ay vioinity, should we consider any' recommends # ? tion as to short or long sleeves in thebe garments? '3 . : I \T CHAIRMAN ROCHE: -For welders, of course, you would have. !* * .* ' * . . `i DR. ADAMS: For welders, yes, but try and get. the women !) - : to cooperate. After they get burned a few tines,, yes, they _ I . `* ` ' , - \ will* .`I have had a number of spark burns in the ear, but not ;! at the wrist. A-' :' ' ' j -CHAIRMAN ROCHE: 'How are you protecting the ears? j ; ; !i ' `` DR. `ADAMS: There is no protection I know of but a little- "**. .... . * . piece of cotton. ' ;|' ` CHAIRMAN ROCHE: Is anybody using- ear plugs here? i . . 5 -three people who use ear plugs. j ' ' . .. * J *' `BH* SPENCER: .It is a dangerous procedure. ' ` I see i ; --jj " : CHAIRMAN ROCHE: Do- you want to connect on that? - . n *V* *. '* 'tv '***-* .*'. .* . - ** * .- -V.V DR.-SPENCER: To dug up'the ears simply means you have - ti v . ;~v; ' ` -1 ' | ..`an incubator for disease gens and. any tendency to infection r; if-; is.- exaggerated* - It in a very unsafe practice topj-ug the ears ... j -. . . V _% v. . ' . . . " jj. with anything. "V' -v ' -- ' _ .  .. 321 DR. RIEX2: I will agree perhaps it is unsafe to plug , the ears with anything, except it is a lot worse to have a : lot of hot alag burn the ear drum out* I raise that point -adyi-aedlr-heoau-a-e--1we--faa-v-e--now seen actually hu^':dxredB~~o~f~ga~s~g~g-- of burns in- the external ear canal and burns of the ear drum* Many men aaid If we put cotton In the ears the alag is apt to set fire to it. So far we have not encountered that.* The \ welders simply do not take advantage 'of any protective measure * ** for the ear oanal until they have trouble, after which they i . use ootton in the ear oanal which they themselves apply. As far as the infectional danger Is concerned, in the ordinary ' ear canal, I think'I myself might go on record as not being \ ' - . ' .; alarmed^about that as much as I would about the danger of hot slag' in the ear* canal* *.-'! ' I might point out another reason for complete coverage *- . of the arms and legs for welders. You all knew of arc flash ! r In the eyes, 3- cf the skin. and I thick you all have' seen arc flash burns The ara flash and the ultra violet and infra red rays do cause quite a severe burn cf the exposed skin, " ". 7- T'--: ....... ' particularly on the legs, of welders who weld in a squatting ; i .! position. It can cause a deep burn which takes seme two weeks .to begin, to heal.' So do not be too surprised as your welders ' ; . * V . m ,, . ** :.*.*.* . '*.*'* V. . . v. - ** ocae into your yards to- sea..that accident happening.' It is . v ***** *'.* ,* < " ** * * .*< 3 a-thing .which is, of course, avoidable with complete coverage, *#*V. I ' '**'* e-ither by cloth or leather. . .*'*,* . . i ; 23e ` 322 : CEAIRMAH RCCEE: Thant 70a very much. Dr. Riehe. I : think that is very good. j DR. S?r.KCER: I an talking about something I do net kr.ow* ? muoh about now, and I ought not to talk about It, but why* 1 * 3 can^we conceive of something of an ear cuff made out of ij screen wire7 These bums In the ear canal are very painful j and disabling. I do not know whether that is practical or , ; not, but it ought to be explored if it is practical. * ,, 1 ' CHAIRMAN ROCH: It is used in foundries. ?' . * ` MR. WALL: I think the main thing the safety engineers . i . have to oontend with on that is stopping the person from hearC. . , . ^ ing. We have, I know, several cases. I have been standing . * ', ,, , 1 around the ways, and sometimes one person oan holler at -\ i' ' : i i j another and get him out of the way of a load of something . j . ' 3 . `* ' * ... 1 * ' ji that is falling off. ? ,i . . If you stop up the ears he can hear .- * . ^ . - 1 l s no d sig. nals. I agree with D* r. Spenoer that if we could arrive* w' ,* -j at acme-soreen type where the sound can go through, or a muff, '] or I think 'it is the thing 'for us to do. i ' . ____ . Id* FRAZIER: There is a screen wire muff on the market ' . . Si in use, and also this plug in the ears. It may be new to 7cu, r;. [r '. - ' - ' . "... i| but it is not to us. In Texas there is a small company which - li " v. - : i| manufactures a plug out of felt. They were at Beaumont, but ~s7 have now moved to San Antonio. I have tried out quite a - ' '' . i:.3w dcrena. of their product and it is very satisfactory for " \'.L- ' ' : ' .- ` ` ' .4 "S*12, ^c^-dera and for some of' the others that operate- the air A U guns. /- ' UR. DESJARDINS: I Just want to say that"Navy does Bake available ear defenders for those who care to wear then. As far aa_^h5.-h.e.aring...^slitles.. are, concern e&, you a an hear with then. ' .' !' . CHAIRMAN ROCKS: The National Safety Contest, which we c * spoke about yesterday, will be -inaugurated between all ship : . yards in the oountry. Xard3 will be classed according to type of work and size. Now, there are available on the piano here about one hundred copies of the rules for this oontest. Please take only one of then, and you will hear more about it in the 3 near future*' : . * .. 1\ . ! \ ' -'.-All of you will reaeive fron now on a oopy of the Victory n* . . . ; Jj` Fleet issued weekly. <i! ; - . . * The Victory Fleet will carry" articles ' * * r\ r 'on safety of general interest to the shipbuilding industry, , m* * * '* jj-. '.spot news, cartoons, ' and so I * * u. _ . t .. * * on. ij all of you and if anybody-wants '* Copies will be available to ,* nore than one copy, please let us .know and we will see that' you get it* UR. JACSWQLF?: (Supervisor of Shipyard Training, ; \2iviaioa Shipyard Labor P.elations, U. S. 'Maritime Commission, ; ji 7 .---V . -! j!\- ETashingtcn, D. CV) : We spoke, 'yesterday about the use of the *1 ; training departments' in helping tha- safety and health depart- }_. Bents get safety and health training over to the men. in the ' rf.' '* - - . * ", ^ ^ _.V. *-,*' .*.*" * . *. . : 1 i|- : organisations* * .'1^:.^; *'7...._ - .! *il*. ,,'* * #<'' ' * ~ ` * * * * ?M ' * ?*. V ' * .' * * * . * - . V.-VEow many safety sen in-this group have, ever gene through' 321 a ees'slon, a Job Instruction training session? Roughly fifteen per oent, ten or fifteen per.oent, .. -How many of you baring gone through it hare actually used it in safety work? . `. -----------------------CSoae-of--the-aesber-g -In* the audi'encaiaed~~the~ijr~ t . hands*) * 5 '` . i What has been your experience? . ^ ; MR. STRIPLING: Very good* ' . . ' MR* * WOLFF: In what way7 ! . * t, i ` MR* STRIPLING: In getting your idea over it is more I* j effective. The training you get in. the J.I.T. oourse gives * . i you a better Idea as to how you get your idea orer to the man, .* ' if The four little factors that are predominant in that particu- ? 'lar training gire you a better lift with the man, ' * *. . ** . | - ! DR. WOLFF: . You feel it has done a good deal to dissem- jt . *-* * ' . .. ` .. ' . ?; inate safety procedures to the.men out in the yard, is that it- - . ' * - !!' right? -. i i vMR. STRIPLING: That Is-right* I hare used that same ii . H* thing in safety engineering courses also. . ! DR. WOLFF:- .Those of you who hare used the Job ins true-* u ter training in safety work, in seeing that safety operations were included with Jch'traihlng, will see that 'it-makes as jj' such.difference in getting it out as though you were driring a spike- with ycurvkacd cr"uaing a hammer to drive it with*. ; |V-KR HOGGINt ,vvTTe 'are putting through the J, I.T*. about A !j 325 m r ,* i two thousand forenen .at the present, tine. * .j .4 ' ' UR. WOLFFi ' Did-you hit particularly on safety? MR. EOGGAN: On safety. _ ' - . ! li * , UR, WOLFF: There is no question that those who have * * * 1 used instructor training in shipyards find fros their experl- i ence that`the safety departnents who are failing to us's it are t* =1 Biasing the big bet. n You fcnow, it was Just a couple of years ago, in consider- i*! ing shipyards, that a f-irn that had two or three hundred es- i .* ployees was considered a fairly large firm, A firs that had * j a dozen or core forenen, well, that was already a sizable : 'i firs. But today we are dealing with shipyards that have five a.1 3 and ten and fifteen, twenty-five and thirty thousand and acre HH - ' ` !t!t u!! eaployees in one organization, and frequently with shipyards * *." .. * . , * | ,, , * , ` - f that-have in adjacent.organizations sixty, seventy or eighty 'i > lj*i thousand employees, Therefore, regardless of how well sore-- . . i! ' ili ' thing is planned, regardless of how much Eanagenent is behind . *. .' * " . . li i: it, regardless of how such or how well the safety department , * 'is organized, unless we utilize sosething that will distribute . *v u * **.* ! these things on a wholesale basis, we Just do not get the . _ - :l 3- -value out of: it,. T- - V- : . ~ ii V-i ' .'s'-r.;Tha renarh. waa Bade yesterday by a safety engineer that ... " a- . . * , .1 * he had. seen, several Job instructor training groups at worn, and. he had. not seen a "thing in those-Job instruotor training ' * ; ./; O -V. `."I'.5. \ ' ' \; . groups-.that- waa devoted specifically to safety procedures. I Well* that was hi a fault. He should have been in there pitch- i ] lng. j . Ia other.words, he was overlooking a bet. If he did not . ' ; K correot.it immediately, he wes not living np to his own possi- jj bilities in -aaking that yard safer. _ 1* ,* i *:_JTh.e.Cfi_ara.various foraaa-to--which yoo-can turn-to g~e~t------------------------7 the help of Job instructor Gaining ln'your yards* 6s If you :i * r have a training department in your yard whioh is using it r* and that is one of our endeavors now* particularly in the i . : 5 maritime yards, and I am sure it la In the navy contract yards tooto see that Job instructor training ia utilized with ;j all supervisors and with all men and with all mechanics, you ij should see that all those men pass on the "know how* as to j ' j. how to do a Job to some one else, . . ' . 3Y I There is another method which safety engineers have n H utilized, and perhaps the men who are responsible for the . j j health'in shipyards.can utilize that as well, - ih fact.they ; | can, - and that is the supervisory, the real supervisory pro- , ducticn conferences. How,, that does not mean a Conference ji in which we tell a supervisory how to be a good supervisor. . * 1 ! It does not mean that it is called a conference, and yet seme-- s - body, stands up there and lectures to a group of - supervisors. | .7. A - |j-..It docs not mean that it is called a conference but what we ! j j I.; conference In which the- .experience and the intelligence- of w /? 23 e 6 ' i: i. " . f . / . those supervisors is utilised in working out , a short out to increase production. That is exactly what it means* ' ' - 2iy home happens tobs in San Franciaoo*- Last October a : Chinese friend of mine, who has been a very intimate friend 'Ter twenty-five years -- he is a merchant there irl San__^_ * . * Francisco in Chinatown -- had my wife and myself and some ' friends at his place for a banquet. After the banquet he ' * '* ` took us around to their family meeting place* How, in San Francisoo each one of those Chinese families' has a meeting plade* By family, I mean all the cousins and ` all the brothers and uncles and nephews. They are all part of the family group. For instance, if Jack Wolff happens to .get into some trouble, I do not try to figure out my own way . out of the trouble myself* T call the family together, and ' .' **.*.. - i .'all ay uncles and nephews and brothers and cousins sit around . " f . ~t . *. .* I 'the table and they help me .figure the best way of getting out ' . cf my Jam* That is the. way they work it, and it is pretty successful, too* ' ' \,!y ' . .i ' 'When we got in this room and looked it over we discovered that it was a .luxurious spot. It had chairs all around the 1 \ v;':r . *"- v*- ` .. walla made of black ebony or teakwcod, whatever It' was, but . `ii each one was beautifully carved* and was something that you t i would Iove-,to have in your con heme.- They had them 1a there * ,* U -TV' " -r! by half a hundred, or mare* Between every two cf 3ft chairs ; * \* 4f iiad. a ras^ a. Canton' ChInn rase^. which is rery ** . V 29 j * . . 22a- beautiful, and any one of your wives or the ladles here would hare given their eye teeth to havo one of those for flower arrangehenta, but they were ouspldora at this meeting place, one between each of the two chairs* Rear the door was a ' *' "Chinese `tea ooiyj and* along thr-Chinese to a- oory was a bswl 7J7' , , half filled with three .Chinese cupa, the kind with .no-handles. They were nested In that .bowl. ' (i j I have been In China, and 1 have a nuaber cf Chinese . friends, and I have learned that theChinese do not do any- : thing Just for fun* eo I said to Chan ken,"Chan, what / * is the , l idea?" Rhy do'you have those three cupa nested In that way ' here alongside this tea eery?* . * . . "tTell, Jack,* he said, *ve always have that wherever " .' i: * * *I .`there is a Ejecting place at which Chinese meet to do something, to accomplish something.- Ke .said, `Tho-so -three cups you j j- **' ' * " . 'will always find in that way so that we-will never forget j I ! that Ccnfuciua once said* . ' . . * `each cno is a teacher. * * 'there three people .***'* * . . ' .* ' get together j . . .. .1 I ' ... j- . i . Hew, ha-did not say when three presidents get together ` *9 .'*. ,*.*** f .' each one ia "a tosoher* or three grandfatharo. Ho said, `shea three poopla got' tegethor oach one is a taachar.,* . j '* i J'- ona That thing is.what we utilizo' in produotica eenforenoes, -this i ; v.. ................ ` which Confucius discovered aeveral`centuries ago; i ` J that whenever- three people gat log other oach ona ia a teacher. -* - -* ..-V: Thorsforoft` no do not try to uoo a production aoafaraaeo to I 30 e 323 ` ^ tell supervisors how to beoome a better supervisor, but we 1 .. i` 1 j -do use tho'se production conferences to utilise that ability ' 3 of the supervisor, each supervisor, to contribute something i! i to the solution of a problem whioh is holding up production, and as he gets'practice involving problems that are holding. * , up production, does he beoome a better supervisor? He does, 1 aoesnrt he? He learns to swim by being in the water and swiaaing. .. .' *i 1 How, one of the things about that is that there is a C J3 ' method whioh can be used that will help to insure this. One : #j{ ?' of the things is to have three oolumns., the first column be-- i ing the objective; 'in other words, the training that we wani if' to accomplish or to have accomplished* The. nest'thing is the colukuz that is devoted to obstacles. ' . ' . 3 the thing that keeps ua from doing it. ... . .f j ** *.,** ' .. ! ." The third ooluna is for solutions, which means the method- that we use in cvercoaing those obstacles. .' I How, this particular. thing is a method in which any ! supervisor who ia already an effective supervisor finds, his- . vu . . * *. * , ..... *...-- .. V. ' . *..*.*.. . * *' * ' * | / * ' .. . .... 4 * - . '* . * * \ .'.self right at hone,.because any tine a supervisor ia given a J Job to do, .that ia-hia'objective.. ' The verything he does ia '.J-;:..- '.V--**...... ' ... . | ..to check that lob over to see what he is up against. Does i-.-.ii that <e*uhook?.; Ho has got`to find out what he Is up against, -I ' \j 'and than, he works, but a mneatthhaod of getting around each one of .i V. ' ` * * rl-tiioae obstacles* ''So thia . ** . la regular ^production procedure* 350 It Is not something which, takes his away' from It, which is a olasa room affair or a sohool room.affair. It ia the same thing he does on hia Job* So far as safety1 ia concerned, auppose you were to set up an objeotive auoh aa this* to out doan Inat. by 90 per oent; would that be a reasonable objective, for a . . .' - I group of supervisors to consider? Does the percentage seem a _ . little high? \. . . MR.' JONES: 2GL. ffOLFF: Cut it in half* Sixty wnuld be swell. *. All right, let us make it sixty, then. . * Even if you make it sixty you would find people who canTt do it. There will be a lot in that group who will say, "Xou canTt . * i * do that, because"*-- well, this is the."because" column* These * h \* ' * *, \ 3 are the reasons here, why you canTt out down those accidenta by 60 per cent.. . . j .Than after your supervisors have listed.down all the ' '.' reasons why they*cannot cut'accidents by 60 per oent, then " ' i ; those same supervisors, - not you, the safety men, - but the - ' * -%. supervisors themselves figure out methods by which they can i get around each one of those reasons, and when they are through the safety engineer has run into a bunch of things which perhaps he himself was -overlooking, and each one cf those men have become safety conscious and arc really thinking safety, because they have considered the. obstacles that they i "i are up against-' . /'./rV .. . ..... . 331 How, here la one of the objectives of a good safety can: Ee want's hia' men, the men in hia yard, to think, safety. In fact, you want your supervisors to think health too, donrt you? Well, will you do it by Just putting up a sign which Just says, "Think**7 Will that aooonplish it? Eou Just hang ' 0* m* up a sign in front of them that says, "Think, Damn Zou, Think. That is what we tell then, in effect* That is the sane sign we find in the 1,3.11. rooms, that sign that says, "Think," after they take away all the stimulation .to thought by having a maohine which does it all. * f Would you say if you follow this procedure by getting to gether first on an objective that everyone there says is a t -* . - '.reasonable objective to strive for, then by having them out * . '. *. line the obstacles which they say would prevent them from reaching this'objective, and these obstacles will then stimu n 35 . late their thinking so they will attempt to work out a solu t s unil tion for eaoh obstacle, - do you believe that that will stimu ii. I)' late their thinking along safety lines or health lines,if your objective happens to be one ca health? . '' r..r~ ***' .......... V ; .*v In Savannah, Georgia, at the Southeastern Shipbuilding a IT Corporation," a couple'of months ** **.* r"-rr s ~ ^*. * ' ' . V . ago there was such a * confer^ 1 :!] eace*/' I would like to ask Ir. Jones of Southeastern, if he a- 'i : nill give hia reactions to one that he saw in operation. n- ' V. * ;.;".v:`EH* JOHSS: '* when. Jaok presented this problem, op solu- . rather, *ta me, .1' caid, "Show me.** Ee said, "0.31*, I ooc *111. So I felt, well, this Is a ohance to throw a nonkey wrench In the machinery, ' I went out Into the yard and picked about twelve or. . fourteen of the most oantankercus lead men and foreaen that . I knew of and oalled them In for this oonferenoet and believe It or not, I.._think that those fourteen right now are the most safety-minded lead men and foremen that I have in my yard, and if I could conduot it there, and I hope I# can and I hoo* e- you all' can too, with the same zeal and enthusiasm that Jack ** f does, it is wonderful. You nay believe it or not, but it did 1 work in my yard with the most cantankerous and objectionable 3 foremen and lead men that I had. i. ... .. . I gratifying. The results have been very . ' '' ' * ,ji IH.. WOLFF:'- That la all I have to say, beoause this, is uI . . * . * .* 5 just being presented. The same thing is'being presented to . j T . . the training men in all maritime yards.' It has been prs- j; ' ' * . < seated to most of them already. We will gradully get some-" jj thing like that swinging, and if you feel that it has sens !j value to'you-in the extension of Bafety practices and health- i . *. , ` _' . : ful practices in the yards, I am. sure that the training de-- .T' partaents wiXXbe_cnly toe glad to-cooperate with ycu in eever '*... ; .-way to. put anyof their training facilities at your dispes aL. .v.-v. T , - . Thank you very such.'' CApplauseJ) ' . " .'' ' " V'* - . ` .. are- there'any questions?- You-know a'good conference ' leader never .does; the- work.*'" He- always- has somebody 'elae do i 4vv- .. / ' 34e it. .Are there any.questions? . . Id. COKLOK: I would like to have you olarify your dls- ' i tinction between a training progran and your supervisors. * . . Is the training progran that you speak of ^---------- ployeea coning in, or how is it done? , * . Id. WOLFF: That is a good point. ' '. ~ The purpose of this : ! ' Job instructor training progran is to help a supervisor be- cone a better instructor of the green man who is. ooming in, because today nine-tenths of the supervisor^ responsibility ; is training. Previously it used to- be about perhaps ten per ' tt * oent training and hinety per cent administrative, but today it . \, - . * ! is the other way around. . '. . ' . . Now, there are two things, two ways in which safety for t the beginner can be gotten over effectively* - with the cb- ! \ . '. : i operation, particularly, cf the training 'departments and the j safety departments. First, they have induction programs..in i .which the new workers come .into the yard and are given seme |* : pre-production training, getting the yard layout and explain- ` ing, perhaps* * some of the ha cards which, he will run up against v: v ' ... ; They will' tell.him where to go- for this and where to go for ; that* how to. oheck in and how to check out, and whom to see ?*4-'** *' _ ' ** ' ***. '.**'.**.* . "* * * * ' .* i, if he has-, to be absent from his work for any length cf time, . 'or whom-to go-to. if ha/needa coma-information beyond the'in- ......... ^ - . .% ... - * *. ` - .. * *.* '**'. ** * * ... * U* . **. . ` * * --I .formation he- can. get-from, the- men he 1st working alongside cf.. "Vjl* v ll* btv. en.-they have 'isatructors too who*traia men already V. .. ) . . * 35e working on ^et us sa3r that a welder has gone OVOoz- through., soboo'l and learned how to hold an arc* In many yards an Instructor follows that nan out on the Job when that' ' welder Is working alone on the platen or assembly platform, . '' . and-the Instructor la* right along-si-de for perhaps each teh welders or trainers who are working. There again he has the . .` ' ! opportunity of bringing out safety as well as technique, the . welding tenhnique itself. #. .. So, in faot, it is not only the supervisors. In fact, : . ' t we have two. distinct things; first is the training of the in-! dividual to Increase his skill so his individual production - will go up to the highest point; that is where safety cones . `* * * i S* in; and the second is the. development of the supervisor so he * will most completely utilise, organise and utilise; that in- . i, ** "* ,; dividual1a skill so as to increase the production of the ships ` * . t * .% . i, . -EH. DALZ2LL: I have a question I have, had on mind since we came here* It does net pertain to training at all. ' - 'STe find most of. our flashes cone at the rush period Just before- luncheon, when we have a lot of welders working up in i- the fore peak'and in^ the after peak* We put goggles on the men, and everything, and yet we find that maybe 50 per cent of them are sent home-, with flashes* I would like- to know if - '.* .r--'.-*s:!' .* H any of you gentlemen have any suggestions on how to stop that * . , **, .. < t. - What I am referring to, you will find. -- as I imagine yemail . ;.:.i .v : :i ' it i! do -- down in. the-fere. peak.maybe you trill have about twenty or twenty-five welders at work, close together. On the out- ` . ' . slcle of the seams, Just ahead of your master butt, you have . . - '' -* got on each seam maybe two or three men, one' putting in a ~` ., t ! i first beat, a aeoond beat, and finishing nffT_-Oae-maa--might- -- *^ . | stop, and the rrsxt man gets the flash, the man right next ta .* - j him gets the flash. . . i. . .. j ; MR. WOLFF: Ape there any suggestions on that? .i IR PACKARD: Mr. Chairman, the way we have successfully ` . . i handled that, in most cases, is by putting .'flash goggles on * `the welders and cutting down the shade on the operator, on j * the hood, and putting on flash goggles on the men. i ; ' * MR. DALZZLL: We-have-flashes where the men have goggles' jon and everything. It seems it leaks in through the side. - * . . ___ " 'i ... .MR* WOLFF: There still nay be some training needed here Are there any further questions? . ' . . .. ' If not, I will turn `the meeting over to Mr. Roche. _ , . CHAIRMAN ROCHE: " The; girls who are now going to model for you were furnished ua through the courtesy of Lou Holts, from the show *?riorities of 1S42* at the Erlanger Theater. ; -v'We are going'to show you how some shipyard girls lock i , `^ ^^ * i(.'"****. **. *' ,* | . when they come to^work, `and'-some who are more or less correct .attired for worki'". r--.' ~ * ' : ' . * '. . . - *' . * i . '! -j followed a style show, displaying the various ` ^'.'''.'."typeo of gamenta to be'used*in. the- shinyards. ) *I '"d. ' . >V".. v. -. .W..V.U.. ^ .j CSAIRMAN ROCHE: Is therw any further-business, which aaj . ..ft;.  836 one wishes to taka up at this time before the final closing j of this first industrial health and safety conference? | '_ . * I - : EH. -PACKAHD: Er. Chairman, there is one thing that has ' 'been bothering us a lot-in--the rarioua shipyards, ?-'Aft'er'~we' hare worked very hard in`finding good assistants, by the time* ` '` . ' . . -| we get them broken in to our ways of doing business, along ,, ... . . '' ; i comes the draft boards and threatens to take them. I wonder ' if there is anything this group oould do in order to try to ; help save these men? After '.all., our Job is to try to keep men in Indus try., and if our men, the men that are doing that Job, ! are constantly taken out of industry, we are going to hare a ; pretty tough time trying to keep up the program* Y It seems- to'. me that is one of the most rital things We hare to contend with* We can draft all the rules and regulations there are, ' but if we hare not an enforcement and cheokiag group, we a anno possibly do `anything with those rules we hare formulated* ' -id. 3SC2;- I beiiere, that Hr. ?aokardrs question is answered in the proceedings of the Manpower Commission. T think safety engineers hare been classified as essential occup tions. I know_they are considering- today that rery problem with casualty insurance'companies* ' ^ CHaIRMAS P.CCHS; -That in a rery good point* That point i---V:V;V '..--J-.-r; ;;.;,,'7.{'- -- -.-A' O v- '.'i* was made some time ago. As a matter of fact, local draft.. ' V* ' ;* ** i **'-** * ** ( /.T'; t. ; beards. did not pay much attention, to. it. Eowerer,. under the new war manpower 3ct-up\ with Paul EcJiutc girer. the s.ut7--< -- r f- 33 e ir r' * . 337 ! i to put men into Industry or military servloe, as he sees fit. I think we will have lass and less trouble in holding essen * tial men. * * r 4r HR* PACAHgj_ __I_have had -two--o-r three 'nan--hasten oul g from under me, and I'have another one that has a very good p *4 m R*1 f2 chanoe of going, even though he may be married. I know I a ii am not the only one. I am speaking probably selfishly, but | 1 am speaking for other people here. We have a local grouo f ' that meets onoe a month and thi3 has been a topic of con-. i ; versation, and we are frankly worried about it, and we do j not know- what to do. `: CHAIRILA2J H0CH2: I really bells'e your troubles in that - ' v. ' ! connection will be le. ssened under this new war manoo ver set i * ** *. - j! up. I.do not knew what good a resolution on cur part would i j ^ do. It`looks like being.stuck on a sandbar and passing a ,, ' : * *' ' ` ' ' j | resolution to get eight feet of water under the keel. 2cu - j . j| could pass a resolution but nobody would listen to it. ! SLR. SPOFFORD: At a meeting of the Tfar Manpower Board ' in Chicago several days ago we were told by a representative . .... , .. i of General Hershcyrs office that the only way to get defer- j 'meat for key men. if they had.b'een inducted by the local draft: | board ia to make a list of. your ksy men. Justify their- in-- j portance and go before the state chairman, of the draft board . -- . < .*, .... / . - ... ." . *.. .*' ---..' . . . . * ,, ' ~ and if that chairman approves tha. deferment of these men if i 1; ! | will *be recognized-by .General Kerseyra office and all otiier i i u> - 39 e f ? . 338- . ?' i f l ' - CHAIRHAK ROCES: la "there anything aloe anyone mialies"' < . * '' * *=. " \* *. *w * to' bring up at thia time? ." ' Xou can get ooples of the complete proceeding by ordei>* . * . i lng them from the young lady.at the Stenotype machine. There ' . mill be some charge Sot that. ` . '' * \\ .