Document jBnYOpeYjdpoLEnR0pDE86ka2

4 c 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SUPERIOR COURT OF NEW JERSEY LAW DIVISION: MIDDLESEX COUNTY DOCKET NO. W000026087 GEORGE M. BADE, SR., and ROSE BADE, his wife; OSCAR HUBER and PATRICIA HUBER, his wife? ANDREW KREBS and ELIZABETH KREBS, his wife; DEPOSITION UNDER MAT MATHES and MARY MATHES, ORAL EXAMINATION his wife? JOSEPH PIETRAS and OF BLANCHE PIETRAS, his wife; MATTHEW M. SWETONIC JOSEPH ROLANDS and RUTH ROLANDS, . his wife? RONALD S. RESZLER and ROF RESZLER, his wife? WILLIAM T. ROLANDS and MARY ROLANDS, his wife? EDWARD E. TERMYNA, SR., and FLORENCE TERMYNA, his wife? WARREN J. TUMLER and VERONICA TUMLER, his wife, ARMSTRONG WORLD INDUSTRIES, INC., formerly known as ARMSTRONG CORK COMPANY, et al., Def endants Brody & Geiser (201) 738-8555 or (212) 732-0644 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 TRANSCRIPT of the deposition of the witness, called for Oral Examination in the above-captioned matter, said deposition being taken pursuant to Superior Court Rules of Practice and Procedure by and before DIANA L. R. SENATORS, a Notary Public and Certified Shorthand Reporter, at the Offices of HILL and KNOWLTON, INC., 420 Lexington Avenue, New York, New York, on Tuesday, June 7, 1988, commencing at approximately 10:15 in the forenoon. BRODY & GEISER CERTIFIED SHORTHAND REPORTERS 170 Broadway New York, New York 10038 (212) 732-0644 JOB # 8060710 Brody & Geiser (201) 738-8555 or (212) 732-0644 1 2 3 4 5 6 1 a 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 APPEARANCES: WILENTZ, GOLDMAN & SPITZER, ESQS. 136 Church Street New York, New York 10007 BY: CHRISTOPHER M. PLACITELLA, ESQ, Attorneys for Plaintiffs DAVIS & GILBERT, ESQS. 850 Third Avenue New York, New York 10022 BY: MARIBEL PIGDEREDO, ESQ. Attorneys for Hill & Knowlton, Inc. MC CARTER & ENGLISH, ESQS. Four Gateway Center 100 Mulberry Street Newark, New Jersey 07102-4096 BY: KEVIN J. CONNELL, ESQ. Attorneys for the Wellington Defendants GOLDEN, LINTNER, ROTHSCHILD, SPAGNOLA 6 DIFAZIO, ESQS. 1011 Route 22 West, Box 897 Somerville, New Jersey 08876 BY: E. RICHARD BOYLAN, ESQ. Attorneys for Defendant Eagle Picher Brody & Geiser (201) 738-8555 or (212) 732-0644 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 WATERS, MC PHERSON, MC NEILL & FITZPATRICK, ESQS 400 Plaza Drive Secaucus, New Jersey 07094 BY: CALVIN A. LEE, ESQ. Attorneys for Defendant Anchor Packing, Inc. BUDD, LARNER, GROSS, PICILLO, ROSENBAUM, GREENBERG & SADE, ESQS. 150 JFK Parkway Short Hills, New Jersey 07078 BY: JOHN J. CATINO, ESQ. Attorneys for Defendant Combustion Engineering, Inc. ALSO PRESENT: NESS, MOTLEY, LOADHOLD, RICHARDSON & POOLE, ESQS. 333 Westminser Mall Providence, Rhode Island 02903 BY: JOHN J. MC CONNELL, JR., ESQ. Brody & Geiser (201) 738-8555 or (212) 732-0644 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 INDEX WITNESS NAME MATTHEW M. SWETONIC Direct by Mr. Placitella PAGE NO. 7 Brody & Geiser (201) 738-8555 or (212) 732-0644 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 exhibits 6 EXHIBIT NO. DESCRIPTION PAGE NO. P-1 Transcript of a presentation given to the Asbestos Textile Institute on 6/7/73 by M. Swetonic 40 P-2 Document entitled "What you should know about asbestos and health. " 44 P-3 Document entitled "Recommended work practices, fabrication and use of Asbestos Paper Products 44 P-4 Letter dated June 10, 1987 79 Brody & Geiser (201) 738-8555 or (212) 732-0644 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 MATTHEW M. SWETONIC, 88 Aldridge Road, Chappaqua, New York, 10514, called as a witness, having been first duly sworn according to law, testifies as follows: DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR- PLACITELLA: Q Good morning Mr. Swetonic, my name is Chris Placitella. A Good morning. Q I'm with the law firm of Wilentz, Goldman & Spitzer, and I represent certain plaintiffs in an asbestos personal injury case, of which Hill and Knowlton is not a party. A Uh-huh. Q We are here today for the purpose of taking your deposition to determine what knowledge you have concerning some of the facts and circumstances involved in these cases. Have you ever had your deposition taken before? A No. Q I'm going to ask you some questions which I ask that you answer to the best of your ability. If for some reason you don't understand a question, please tell me that and I'll attempt to rephrase it. If you answer it I'll assume you understood it. Do you Brody & Geiser (201) 738-8555 or (212) 732-0644 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SWETONIC-Direct understand that? A Yes. Q Okay- I also ask that you keep your answers to my questions verbal, as the court reporter can't take down a nod of the head or a shrug of the shoulders, okay? A Fine. Q If during the course of the deposition your attorney should object to a question that I ask, please don't answer it until such time as we have the opportunity to discuss what we should have learned a long time ago in law school, probably what we should not have forgot, and she tells you whether you can answer the question or not. A I understand. 0 Give me the benefit of your education. A Bachelor's Degree inWriting from the University of Pittsburgh. Master's Degree in Journalism from Columbia University. Q When did you receive the Master's? A 1965. Q You currently work for Hill and Knowlton; is that correct? A That is correct. Q Did you hold any job prior to your getting Brody & Geiser (201) 738-8555 or (212) 732-0644 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SWETONIC-Direct 9 your Master's Degree? A For about six months I was a reporter for the Easton Express in Easton, Pennsylvania? daily newspaper. Q How old are you today? A Today? Q Yes - A Forty-five. Q When you finished your Master's Degree in 1965, what was the first job you had after that? A Johns-Manville Corporation. Q What did you do for then? A Initially I started out as an assistant editor on their company magazine. Q How long did you have that job? A Roughly to 1967, when I then was named editor of that publication. Q What was the name of the publication? A I knew you were going to ask that. I don't remember. Q And as editor what were your basic responsibilities? A Just basically to put out this magazine, which primarily talked about what employees were doing in the company, occasional features on the, some of the new Brody & Geiser (201) 738-8555 or (212) 732-0644 SWETONIC-Direct 1C 1 products that they were developing, that sort of thing. 2 Q Okay. 3A For example, their insulations were used in a 4 lot of spacecraft so we would do stories on that 5 practically every month, or however many times a year 6 it came out. 7 Q But you don't remember the magazine name, 8 though? 9A No, I really don't. 10 Q Did the magazine ever deal with issues 11 such as asbestos and health? 12 A I'm trying to remember if it did or not, because 13 again as I say, I knew that would be something you 14 would ask. I don't remember, to be totally honest with 15 you. 16 Q How long did you have the job as editor of 17 that magazine? 18 A For approximately one year, sometime into 1968 19 it changed. 20 Q And what is your next job? 21 A I was approached by the company because one of 22 the specialties that I had taken at Columbia was 23 science journalism. 24 Q So you stayed editor of the magazine until 25 sometime in 1968? Brody 6 Geiser (201) 738-8555 or (212) 732-0644 1 2 3 4 5 6 1 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SWETONIC-Direct A Right. Q And then your next job was? A I then approached by the company, as I was saying before, because I had done science writing as a specialty in the second half of my year at Columbia, to help them with their evolving public relations problems with asbestos and health. And they gave me a title that was something like coordinator of special projects. One of those very fuzzy type names. Q How long did you have that job? A Until 1972 when Manville moved to Denver and I did not want to leave New York. So I took over a job as the executive secretary of the Asbestos Information Association of North America. Q Let me go back to the public relations job you had with Manville from '68 to *72. A Uh-huh. Q What specifically was your job function? A I was -- I reported to two people who were sort of in charge of the total public relations effort on asbestos. A fellow named Bill Raines, another fellow named Jack Solon, who is really the head of advertising, and public relations. Bill Raines being the head of public relations. two. And I worked basically for those Brody k Geiser (201) 738-8555 or (212) 732-0644 SWETONIC-Direct 1 Q What did you do? 2A Well, for example, I would help write background 3 papers on various types of asbestos-related diseases 4 like asbestos and mesothelioma, asbestos-related 5 disease, and different types of products like asbestos 6 cement or the insulations or that sort of thing. 7 Pretty much a writing assignment. I would also write 8 testimony for executives who were going to testify at 9 say OSHA or EPA hearings, that sort of thing, or at 10 least would do drafts of them in any case. 11 Q Every time you generated a piece of 12 written work, would that be filed somewhere? 13 A Yeah, it would have been. 14 Q How was that filed? 15 A Well, it was -- it was just in what we would 16 call our old asbestos and health files at 17 Johns-Manville. 18 Q And who was the custodian of those files? 19 A They were just in the department. 20 Q Which department was that? 21 A Public relations. 22 Q So the public relations department was 23 centered in New York City at the time? 24 A That's correct. 25 Q And they had their own files on asbestos Brody & Geiser (201) 738-8555 or (212) 732-0644 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 15 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SWETONIC-Direct ] and health? A To the best of my recollection, yeah. I mean, I would have a filing cabinet with the stuff that I was working on but Q When the transfer was done out to Denver, were those files shipped to Denver as well, to your knowledge? A I would assume they were because they were, you know, we were actively working on the issues. So there would be no reason for them to be tossed away. Q Was the custodian of those records -- who was the person in charge of them? A Well, Bill Haines did not go out there. He went to -- he went to another company. I would guess Jack Solon* Q Is Jack still with the company? A No, he's retired. Q Do you know who his successor was? A No, I really don't. Q Now, in preparing these papers or writings that you spoke about, did you ever to go back and do research on asbestos and health? A Yes. Q In order to --. A Yeah. Brody & Geiser (201) 738-8555 or (212) 732-0644 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SWETONIC-Direct 4 Q What kind of research did you do? A Well, we had been collecting, you know, basic stuff out of the, out of the medical literature. Q When you say "we," who are you talking about? A Well, Hill and Knowlton and Johns-Manville. Q So Hill and Knowlton had a relationship with Johns-Manville at that time? A Yes. Q Okay, go ahead. A X can recall at one point a meeting at which somebody commented on the fact that we had more than 4,000 papers on asbestos and health in the file at that particular point in time. Q Now, when you say at that point I found about 4,000 articles on asbestos and health, at what point in time are we discussing, just so I know, about 1968? A Well, it was probably later than that. We're probably talking '71 or something in that ballpark. Q Did Hill and Knowlton maintain their own file on asbestos and health at that time? A Yes, they did have -- yeah, they did. Q And who was the custodian of that file? A Probably a fellow named Carl Thompson. Brody 6 Geiser (201) 738-8555 or (212) 732-0644 1 2 3 4 5 6 1 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SWETONIC-Direct Q Is Carl still with the company, do you know ? A No, he's retired. Q Now# after Carl left what happened to that file? A No, but it's different than that. What happened was that when Manville moved to Denver all of the Hill and Knowlton files were turned over to the trade association. Q What trade association? A The Asbestos Information Association. Q Okay. And when was that? A Late 1971 probably. Q Okay. So Hill and Knowlton didn't retain copies? A Not to the best of my knowledge. Q Now, you said you did some research for Mansville when you took over in this public relations job. Did you ever document the earliest articles that you can recall concerning asbestos and health? A I'm sorry, I don't quite understand. Q Let me rephrase the question. Did you . breakdown the articles into the various diseases, or did you just lump medical articles together when you were doing --. Brody & Geiser (201) 738-8555 or (212) 732-0644 SWETGNIC-Direct ]c 1A No, these were all medical articles we are 2 referring to. Basically they were, they were looked at 3 by a combination of either disease or, you know, 4 product line for example, insulations for example. 5 Q Okay. Did you maintain copies of the 6 papers you wrote for Manville? 7A X probably -- they were probably at the trade 8 association as well. 9 Q So then you didn't maintain personal 10 copies of the papers, did you? 11 A No. 12 Q Can you recall writing any papers 13 concerning exposure to insulation productsand their 14 effect on human health? 15 A Yes. 16 Q Did the papers have titles? 17 A Oh, they probably did. It wassomething like 18 Asbestos Insulation and Human Health or, you know, some 19 such name. 20 Q Was that paper published at all? 21 A No. I mean not -- you mean like in a journal or 22 something? 23 Q Right. 24 A No. No. No. These are not medical papers. 25 These were background papers. Brody & Geiser (201) 738-8555 or (212) 732-0644 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SWETONIC-Direct Q Okay. A I'm not a doctor or a scientist. Q Where did you get the information for the paper? A Generally out of this* out of the medical literature as it existed. Q Who supplied the medical literature to you? A The company. And they did searches through the medical literature to get all there was out there. Q Did you consult any physicians in connection with this paper Asbestos Insulation and Health? A Basically we would? we would write a paper or I would write a paper# Then the company would? would have it reviewed by their consultants? medical consultants* Q And do you know who that was? A The primary one in those days was a fellow named Dr. George Wright# Q Did you ever meet Dr. Wright? A Oh? yes. Q What would his role be in conjunction with these particular papers? What would he do? A He was a consultant to Johns-Manville. He was Brody & Geiser (201) 738-8555 or (212) 732-0644 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 6 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SWETCNIC-Direct 1: affiliated with, as I recall, St. Luke's Hospital in, I can't remember where it was. I just remember it was St. Luke's Hospital someplace. Q When you had this job in public relations, did you consult or collaborate with any other asbestos companies? A Not until the trade association was formed. Q And when was that? A In, I think, maybe late 1970. Q Can you recall with respect to the paper on Asbestos Insulation and Health what the earliest articles you were able to find in the medical . literature were implicating asbestos insulation as a health hazard? A No. Q Do you remember from what decade they came? A No, not really. t remember better the, you know, when the diseases were found, you know, in the medical literature as opposed to their association with any particular product. Q Okay. Well, can you recall with respect to asbestosis the earliest articles you were able to find in the medical literature? A My recollection is that they were probably in Brody 8 Geiser (201) 738-8555 or (212) 732-0644 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SWETONIC-Direct 19 the 1930s. Q Do you remember the authors of any of those papers? A No. Q Do you remember what the papers said? A Just basically that heavy exposure to asbestos insulations or asbestos could causer you know? asbestosis. Q Okay. Did you have any discussion with any physicians or any other representatives of Manville concerning those findings? NS* FIGOEREDO: By those findings you mean? Q The papers dating back to the 1930s on asbestosis* A I'm not quite sure about what you mean by discussions. Q Well, did you have discuss with Dr* Wright, for instance, about the articles you found dating, concerning asbestosis back in the 1930s? A Probably no specific discussions* Q Was it part of your job to communicate your findings to someone else within the company? A Well, it's not findings. You know, we had the processes -- basically we had this great body of Brody & Geiser (201) 738-8555 or (212) 732-0644 SWETONIC-Direct 1 medical literature. And it would be to go through that 2 particularly looking for epidemiological studies or 3 studies that were trying to indicate at what level 4 these various diseases# exposure level these diseases 5 were caused. And those were the most important things 6 that we used in the, in trying to prepare these 7 background papers. 8 Q This body of literature that you're 9 discussing, was that something that was accumulated 10 over time by Manville and they had it in a file, or did 11 you go out and do a search or someone at your request 12 go out and do a search at that point you wanted to 13 write the paper? 14 A I don't know the answer to that, because some of 15 those papers were in place when I got involved in the 16 job. And I don't know, I just don't know the answer to 17 that. 18 Q Did Manville have a medical library at the 19 time? 20 A I don't recall. 21 Q Now, you said that part of your endeavor 22 was to determine exposure levels. What did you mean by . 23 that? 24 A well -- 25 (Recess) Brody & Geiser (201) 738-8555 or (212) 732-0644 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SWETONIC-Direct A -- determine is not a good word. All we were looking for was what was in the literature with regard to the exposure levels at which asbestos caused disease of various types. Q And what did you find? A Basically the problem with the, at that time is that the dust samples -- again. I'm just referring to the literature -- that the dust samples that had been taken years before that were recorded in the literature were not the same sampling techniques that were being used at that particular point in time. And so it was kind of difficult to arrive at what would be considered, you know, a "safe level" of exposure. So of course, there was a lot of research going on trying to correlate, you know, one with the other. And we just tried to help explain that as best we could. Q Did Manville have a position or a belief at that time, to your knowledge, as to what was the safe level of exposure in terms of asbestosis now? A Asbestosis. Ifm sure that they did. I can't say specifically what that might have been for asbestosis. Q Did you ever research the concept of threshold limit value for them? A Of course, that's what we were, you know. Brody & Geiser (201) 738-8555 or (212) 732-0644 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SWETONIC-Direct 2: essentially looking at, is to try and determine what sort of, what would make sense in that regard. Q Did you reach any conclusions or did anyone working with you reach any conclusions concerning the reliability of an established threshold limit value? A In other words, would it work? Q Right. A Yeah, I think they believed that there was a level that could be set by the government that would protect people, if that's what you mean. Q Do you know what that was? A No, they thought, I think, you know, in the low numbers of fiber per cubic centimeter, whether it was going to be -- whether it would be two or four or five or somewhere in that general ballpark. 0 Did you also do research and prepare a background paper concerning asbestos and lung cancer? A I'm sure I did. Q Okay. And who did you consult, or what did you consult in preparing that paper? A The same processes as the other ones. Q Can you recall the first articles that you were able to -- the earliest articles you were able to find demonstrating an association between asbestos and Brody & Geiser <201> 738-8555 or (212) 732-0644 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SWETONIC-Direct lung cancer? A My recollection/ probably in the late '40s/ something like that. Q Can you recall who the author of those articles were? A No/ I have the recollection it was a British paper/ but I'm not sure. Q Can you recall any particular epidemiological studies that you found which established an association between asbestos and lung cancer? A Well/ that's what I'm referring to, epidemiological studies. Q Okay. Did Manville ever give you any of their own data with respect to their own employees when you were writing up these background papers? A No. Q So this was basically a search of what was out there at the time? A Yes, that's correct. Q Did you put your conclusions as to when this first association became known in this background paper? A Most likely. I mean,that would bethe standard way I would write things. So Iwouldassume 1 did Brody & Geiser (201) 738-8555 or (212) 732-0644 SWETONIC-Direct 24 1 that. 2 Q Did anyone, to your knowledge, come back 3 to you and disagreewith your conclusions? 4 A No. 5 Q Did you submit those papers to Dr. Wright 6 again for review? 7 A Oh, yes. 8 Q And did he disagree with the determination 9 or conclusions that you reached concerning asbestos and 10 lung cancer? 11 A No, not to the best of my recollection. 12 Q Did you also attempt to determine whether 13 there was a safe level of exposure in terms of 14 contracting lung cancer from asbestos? 15 A The process of looking at TLV's for asbestos was 16 just applied across the board for all the diseases. 17 Q Did you ever do a background paper 18 concerning exposure to asbestos and mesothelioma? 19 A Again, I'm -- don't remember precisely doing 20 that, but I assume I did, because we had a great body 21 of those papers, eight or nine of one type or another. 22 So that would be naturally one to be done. 23 Q Do you recall the earliest articles that 24 you found in Manville's files demonstrating an 25 association between asbestos and mesothelioma? Brody & Geiser (201) 738-8555 or (212) 732-0644 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SWETONIC-Direct A Yeah, that's definitely in the '50s. An epidemiological study of one type or another. Q Can you recall specifically the name of the paper or the study? A No. Q Or the author? A My recollection, it was a paper out of South Africa or Rhodesia, as it was then known, on the asbestos mines and crocidolite mines in South Africa is my recollection. Q Does the name Wagner ring a bell? A Yeah. 0 Can you recall when you looked at the Wagner paper whether is there was any mention of different exposure levels in that particular paper? A No, I can't remember: Q Did you ever do apaper forManville concerning the risk of contracting asbestos-related disease from low level exposure and do a medical search in connection with that? A I don't think as a specific paper not that I -- not that I recall. Q Did you ever do that type of research in looking at the medical literature in possession of Johns-Manville? Brody & Geiser (201) 738-8555 or (212) 732-0644 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SWETONXC-Direct 26 A Yeah, that was obviously part of, you know, when going through the whole OSHA process to find out, you know, at what levels things are gonna not happen again. Q Can you recall the earliest papers that you found concerning low level exposure to asbestos and asbestos disease. A Well, what -- okay, let me ask you a question. I have to ask you a question; that is, what do you mean by "low level"? Q That's a fair question. Did you ever do any research papers, for instance, bystander exposure, people who actually didn't work with insulation products but were exposed as bystanders? A I don't recall their ever having, ever having seen such a paper. The only -- Okay. MS. FIGOEREDO: Don't guess. THE WITNESS: No. Q Did you ever see any papers concerning exposure and risk of disease or disease developing in family members? A Yes. Q Can you recall the earliest paper in that regard? A Oh, gosh that, that came probably late. That was again, I think, a British paper, too. Woman Brody & Geiser (201) 738-8555 or (212) 732-0644 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SWETONIC-Direct 27 author. X met her a couple of times. Probably, probably that would have been in the late '50s, early '60s I would think would be my best guess. Q That's your best estimate? A Yeah. Q And do you recall what the substance of . that paper was, what it said? j A Yeah. Basically she had found cases of j mesothelioma in the households of people who had worked in asbestos factories of one type or another/ I don't j i | recall what kind/ in England somewhere. Q And did you bring these or have discussion about these papers with anybody at Manville? A Oh, sure. It was a very -- those were very important issues. Q Who did you run those papers by when you found them? A Well/ I mean everybody knew that they existed. I meanf the doctors at Manville knew the authors of these papers. They spent a lot of time talking with them about them, what the implications were/ what kind of levels one might have projected that the people had - been exposed to in the households. You know/ this thing/ none of this happened in isolation. I mean/ I spent many a month in Europe talking around with Brody & Geiser (201) 738-8555 or (212) 732-0644 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SWETONIC-Direct doctors over there, you know, going over there with the Manville people to get better information on what was going on. Q Which doctors did you go see in Europe? A Good question. I know we went out to a pneumoconiosis research unit, or some such thing in Penarth, Wales. And there was another center for asbestos health studies in Scotland. You know, those sorts of things. And to conferences and that sort of stuff. Q Did you ever meet with a Dr. Nocks? A Dr. Nocks. The name is familiar. Q Company known as Turner 6 Newall? A Yeah. Yeah, I probably did. Q Did you ever meet with a Sir Richard Doll? A I don't believe I personally did. 1, of course, know who he is. Q After you had read this paper over, did you discuss it with Dr. Wright, the paper on mesothelioma in the family of asbestos factory workers? A I wouldn't think we discussed it. Q Did anyone at Manville, to your knowledge, ever disagree with the conclusions reached in that paper when you brought it to their attention? A Well, no, no one ever disagreed with it. Brody & Geiser (201) 738-8555 or (212) 732-0644 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SWETONIC-Direct Q Can you think of any other papers that you discovered or you discussed with anyone concerning asbestos disease and family members? A That's -- that's the only paper that I can recall, that one particular paper. Q Can you recall ever reading any papers in possession of Manville concerning asbestos disease found in residents around an asbestos factory or mine? A The only one that I can recall was there was some higher incidence of mesothelioma in the vicinity of a shipyard in Scotland or some such place. That's the only one X can recall. Q Can you recall approximately when that paper was published? A Well/ no. It was probably again in the '60s. Q Can you describe the relationship between Bill and Knowlton and Johns-Manville when you first went to work for Johns-Manville? A Hill and Knowlton was not retained by Johns-Manville when I went to work there. They were retained sometime in 1968 specifically to work with them on the asbestos and health situation. But when - precisely they are, I don't know. They were in place when I was offered to change jobs within the company. Q Do you know who the account representative Brody & Geiser (201) 738-8555 or (212) 732-0644 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SWETONIC-Direct 3C from Hill and Knowlton was at the time? A Carl Thomson. Q You tell me he's retired, correct? A Yes. Q Did he have any associates that worked with him on that account that still work at Hill and Knowlton? A No. Q Can you recall any of the associates he had with him on that account? A Jim Callaghan. Do wantmore? I'm trying to remember. Fellow named Bill Jenkins. Those are the only two additional I can remember. Q What specifically was Hill and Knowlton retained to assist with by Johns-Manville? A Well, basically to counselthem on how to discuss the implications of the asbestos and health problem with the public, with their employees, with government, whatever Q Now, at that time was Hill and Knowlton to your knowledge retained by any other insulation manufacturer or asbestos manufacturer? A Not to the best of my knowledge* Q Are you aware of an agreement between Johns-Manville, Owens-Corning, Pittsburgh Plate Glass Brody & Geiser (201) 738-8555 or (212) 732-0644 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SWETONIC-Direct 31 and Certain-Teed in the late 1960s retaining Hill and Knowlton concerning the issues of asbestos and health? A When would this have been? Q '67, '68, *69. A No, I thought it was just Manville. Q Did Hill and Knowlton have its own medical people at the time that assisted Manville? A You mean doctors,professionals. Q Doctors. A No. Q What type of assistance did it give Manville other than writing copy for them and helping them with press releases, that type of thing? A Just, you know, just counsel them on, as I said, on public relations aspects of the issue. Q Did Hill and Knowlton give Manville any technical support? A No. Q Did they ever, during the time that you worked there, counsel Manville on how to deal with lawsuits arising out of asbestos? A NO. Q Can you recall what specifically Hill and Knowlton advised Manville to do with respect to the problem of asbestos and health? Brody & Geiser (201) 738-8555 or (212) 732-0644 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SWETONIC-Direct A Well, the basic position was that to solve the problem and to at the same time put it in perspective where it had gotten a little bit out of whack, Q that? When you say that, what do you mean by A That it was the belief of all of us working at Manville that asbestos could be used safely and that the exposures could be controlled to an extent where there would not be, you know, additional disease in the future. And so the effort was to, obviously to explain that to whoever needed to understand it. Q When you say could be used safely, what do you mean by that? A Meaning that you could manufacture asbestos products, you could use asbestos-containing products, you can mine asbestos without endangering the health of the people who were handling that. Q What precautions would have to be taken in the opinion of Manville at the time to accomplish that obj ective? A Well, obviously huge air cleaning equipment in plants and factories and mines, which they already had . in place basically. But to, you know, to make sure that you had state-of-the-art air cleaning equipment in all operations. I can remember basically, you know. Brody & Geiser (201) 738-8555 or (212) 732-0644 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SWETONIC-Direct sort of research projects to try and find ways, for example, to open bags of asbestos in a fashion that the dust would not be created. They had these things where you'd stick your hands in, almost like in an operating room, and then open the bags that way. And eventually I think they developed mechanical bag openers, and that sort of stuff. A lot of technical type of efforts to do that sort of thing. Q Was it Manville's believe at the time that opening a bag of asbestos would release asbestos containing particles? A Of course it would. A bag of asbestos, and you open it you get a puff up, you get an exposure. Q Did that include asbestos cement as well? A I don't recall stuff on asbestos cement, to be honest with you. Because they were really basically involved in the finish asbestos cement products. So I don't think they sold asbestos cement in bags, as I recall. Q Okay. A So it would not be something that technically they'd pay attention to. . Q Were you ever involved in any discussions on labeling of Manville products? A Not that I recall. Brody & Geiser (201) 738-8555 or (212) 732-0644 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SWETONIC-Direct Q Now, when you say that the issue in Manville's mind got out of perspective, I want to explore that- What do you mean by that specifically? A Well, there was perfect --. MS. FIGUEREDO: You mean in greater detail than he has already explained to you? MR. PLACITELLA: I haven't heard about perspective. He just told me about ways to make use of the product safe, I believe. A Uh-huh. Q And X want to know what you mean when you say it got out of perspective. A I think there was a feeling in the, you know, in the popular press that any exposure to any level of asbestos was automatically going to give people disease. And that simply was not supported by what was in the, in any of the literature, or by any of the research that had been done. So that was part of the reason for, for, you know, doing some of those background papers. It could be used with the press or whatever to explain, yes, it's a problem but it's, it can be, you know, dealt with. - Q Okay. At that time were you familiar with Dr. Irving Selikoff? A Oh, yes. Brody & Geiser (201) 738-8555 or (212) 732-0644 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SWETCNIC-Direct Q How were you familiar with him? A Dr. Selikoff and the Environmental Sciences Laboratory at Mount Sinai and Johns-Manville entered into a research project sometime in the late '60s to address the issue of the safe handling of asbestos insulation in the field, not in the production of it in a factory, but in the field. Q Why why was that? A Because Dr. Selikoff had done a lot of research on insulation workers, really asbestos insulation workers. And they had an exceedingly high incidence of asbestos-related diseases. Q Is that something that was known to Manville at the time? A Oh, of course. Q Okay. Go ahead. A So the question was how can you develop or change work practices. Can you get portable air hoods to work with what needs to be done to protect these people in the way that they either apply or tear out asbestos insulations. Q Do you know whether John Manville and Hill * and Knowlton ever established any type of public relations campaign to counteract the adverse publicity that Selikoff's studies were generating in the press? Brody & Geiser (201) 738-0555 or (212) 732-0644 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SWETONIC-Direct 36 A No, not really. I mean, they were basically working together with the man at that time. Q Were you familiar with an article that appeared in the literature at the time called The Magic Mineral? A I remember the name, but not the article. Q Did you ever have any discussions with Hill and Knowlton or in Manville itself concerning how best to present the asbestos and health picture to the labor unions? A No. The only -- my only recollection of labor unions is they were also involved in that project that I had mentioned before with Manville and Mount Sinai and Selikoff. A fellow from there was a member -- the president of the union was a member of the board of this thing, which I can't even recall the name of anymore. Q Let me just move on for a second and I'll come back. You had this particular job until you said about what time? A The end of 1971. Q Prior -- let's discuss the AIA of North America. A Okay. Q When was that established? Brody & Geiser (201) 738-8555 or (212) 732-0644 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SW ETONIC-Dir ect 37 A I believe in late 1970, Q And was that patterned after any other organization, to your knowledge? A Yes, an Asbestos Information Association type of a group in England. Q Do you know whether Hill and Knowlton had advised the AIA in England prior to that time? A Yes, they had. Q Do you recall in the 1970s what companies founded the AIA of North America? A 1 could name a couple. It's in some of the material I passed on for the deposition before. Certain-Teed, of course Manville, Raybestos-Manhattan, National Gypsum. It seems to me there were seven or eight. GAP, that's all I can remember of the initial. Q Was Ovens-Corning a member? A I don't believe so. Q What about Baldwin, Ehret, Hill, do you recall that, or Keene Company? A No. Q Celotex or Philip Carey? A Philip Carey I think may have come in in the second group much later. They expanded it from the original seven or eight up until about 22 or 23. And I can't, again, I also can't remember too many of them. Brody & Geiser (201) 738-8555 or (212) 732-0644 SWETONIC-Direct 1 you know. 2 Q When it was established in 1970, did you 3 have any role within the organization? 4A Yeah, I -- Manville basically for the first year 5 provided, for all intents and purposes, the staff to 6 this group. And from the public relations standpoint 7 that was myself and this fellow Bill Raines. 8 Q Did you have a title? 9A I don't believe so. At least not initially I 10 don't recall that I did, in any case. 11 Q What was the purpose of the AIA of North 12 America. 13 A Well, it was essentially to get the entire 14 industry into the effort that Manville had basically 15 been carrying on its own, which was to basically 18 address the health issues from an informational 17 standpoint with regard to asbestos and its various 18 health problems* They had technical committees, for 19 example, to put together, you know, safe use, safe 20 practice books on various types of asbestos useage, you 21 know, that sort of thing. 22 Q Okay. You started officially full-time 23 with the AIA when? 24 A Beginning in 1972. 25 Q What was your position? Brody & Geiser (201) 738-8555 or (212) 732-0644 SWETONIC-Direct 39 1A 2 3A Executive secretary. Q What were your job responsibilities there? Basically it was really a continuation of my 4 Manville job, just with a different title. 5 Q And were there any other officers within 6 the organization at that time? 7A No, I was -- myself and a secretary were the 8 sole paid employees. 9 Q What were your job responsibilities, the 10 same as you had with Manville? 11 A Same really as we had with Manville. 12 Q Only at that point in time you were doing 13 it on behalf of not just Manville but other member 14 companies? 15 A Other member companies, that's correct. 16 Q Did you ever, in that capacity, go around 17 to any trade organizations to give speeches or anything 18 like that? 19 A Not really. Basically the asbestos people, to 20 my recollection, didn't have too many trade 21 associations. And this one, as I said, was dedicated 22 pretty much to the asbestos and health issue. And they 23 had most of the major companies involved in it. So --. 24 MS. FIGUEREDO: Excuse me. 25 (Witness and Counsel confer). Brody & Geiser (201) 738-8555 or (212) 732-0644 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SWETONIC-Direct 4 Q Do you recall ever giving a presentation to The Asbestos Textile Institute? A No. Q Do you recall speaking before them on June 7, 1973? A I really don1t. Q Okay. MR. PLACITELLA: Can I have this marked as P-1? (The above-mentioned document is marked as P-1 for Identification.) Q I am going to show you what's been marked P-1 for Identification/ which I represent to you is a transcript of a presentation that you gave on 6/7/73 to The Asbestos Textile Institute according to one of the asbestos companies that was present at that. MS. FIGOEREDO: That is an imperuim (phonetic) document? MR. PLACITELLA: What? MS. FIGOEREDO: I'm asking you is his name in the document? MR. PLACITELLA: Yesf right on top. Q I ask you to review at least the first couple pages of that and see if that helps refresh your memory. Brody & Geiser (201) 738-8555 or (212) 732-0644 SWETONIC-Direct 4: 1 A Sure. 2 (witness reviews). 3 A Yeah, it's possible. 4 MS. FIGUEREDO: Are you going to ask him 5 specific questions on this document? 6 Q Yes, I am. 7 MS. FIGUEREDO: I would like him to read 8 the whole thing. 9 MR. PLACITELLA: We will go through it. 10 Q Does that help refresh your memory? 11 A Yeah. I don't recall the occasion. 12 Q Do you recall at one time speaking before 13 The Asbestos Textile Institute? 14 A I do not. 15 Q Does this refresh your memory as to 16 whether you had ever given presentations to asbestos 17 industry trade organizations? 18 A If that is an accurate document, then I 19 obviously did to that group. But I, the fact of the 20 matter is, I don't even remember giving that. 21 MS. FIGUEREDO: Bis question is, does it 22 refresh your recollection? If it doesn't, you 23 can say no. 24 A 25 No, it does not. Q Will you tell me if this statement in this Brody & Geiser (201) 738-8555 or (212) 732-0644 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SWETONIC-Direct document is true to the best of your knowledge? It says, "In our original concept the Association would limit its activities to providing accurate, unbiased information on asbestos and health to the press, to the public and to interested politicians and other government officials." A Yes, that1s true. Q That's true. You recall making such a statement ? A No. MS. FIGCJEREDO: Do you have another copy of that he can look at at the same time you're reading things from it? MR. PLACITELLA: I am sorry, I don't. Q Wa~ the following statement true at the time; "It must be remembered that at this particular time the enormous problems that would later develop with regard to OSHA and other federal regulatory agencies were as yet on the distant horizon and basically unrecognized by the industry"? A Yes, that's true. Q Okay. - MS. FIGOEREDO: Can I interrupt? If you're going to ask a lot of things like, can we make a copy of the document so he can have it in Brody & Geiser (201) 738-8555 or (212) 732-0644 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SWETONIC-Direct 4; front of him to look at in conjunction MR. PLACITELLA: Sure. MS. FIGUEREDO: Is there a machine? THE WITNESS: Sure. Q Can you recall making the following --. MS. FIGUEREDO: I asked if we can have a copy. MR. PLACITELLA: Fine. As soon as I am done you can have a copy. MS. FIGUEREDO: I want him to have a copy in front of him. I don't think it's that unfair to ask for him to have a copy of a document if you are going to be reading statements from it. MR. PLACITELLA: As soon as I finish this paragraph you can make a copy. Q Do you recall making the following statement: "Fortunately and properly the Association has had the wisdom to alter its original limited concept of its proper functions? and now endeavors to assume whatever activities and responsibilities it deems necessary to protect the interests of the - asbestos manufacturing industry in the United States vis-a-vis asbestos and health"? A i don't remember making that statement. But --. Brody & Geiser (201) 738-8555 or (212) 732-0644 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SWETCNIC-Direct 4U Q Do you dispute that it was made by you? A I just don't recall. Q What I'd like to have you do right now is to read it. We will take two minutes out and you can read this statement and see if it refreshes your memory and see whether it refreshes your recollection. MS. FIGUEREDO: Are you going to be reading him other direct passages? MR. PLACITELLA: I will let him read that. Do you want to make a copy? MS. FIGOEREDO: Yes. (Recess.) MR. PLACITELLA: I can go on while we are waiting for copies. Can we mark these? (Documents are marked as P-2 and P-3 for Identification.) Q In 1973 was there anyone authorized to speak on behalf of the AIA of North America other than yourself? A Oh, sure, the president. Q Who was that? A 1973, probably John Marsh. Q Now, you told me that around 1970 when the organization was established both you and Mr. Raines i iIt ii Brodv & Geiser (201) 738-8555 or (212) 732-0644 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SWETONIC-Direct 4! were the only executives or principals within the organization; is that correct? A No# no. I said that we were on the staff. Q Oh* okay. Did you have other staff within the organization at that time? A Yes, from the member companies. Q Okay. Can you recall who else was on the staff in 1970? A I can only remember one man, and that was a fellow named Ed Fenner from Johns-Manville who was in charge of environmental affairs. Q Did it have a president at that time? A Yes. Q Who was that? A I can't remember. Q At some point in time you recall John Marsh taking over -- A Yes Q -- as president? A Yes. Q When was that? A Probably in late *72.. Q All right. Was he with an asbestos company? A Yes. Brody 6 Geiser (201) 738-8555 or (212) 732-0644 1 2 3 4 5 6 1 e 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SWETONIC-Direct 46 Q Which company? A Raybestos-Manhattan. Q Do you recall how long John Marsh was president ? A No. Q How long did you remain executive secretary? A I left in August of '73. Q And where did you go after that? A To Hill and Knowlton. Q I am going to ask you to look at P-2 and P-3, and ask if you have ever seen these before, or copies of them? (Witness reviews). A I've seen that one. MS. FIGDEREDO: He is referring to P-2. MR. PLACITELLA: Correct. i j A No, I've never seen this one. Q Can you tell me what P-2 is? A I had nothing to do with the preparation of | t\ | i this. I'd be assuming what its purpose was, because I don't know. I've just seen copies of it. ' Q Where did you see copies of it. A Probably Bob Marinas sent me a copy when it was put together. Brody & Geiser (201) 738-8555 or (212) 732-0644 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SWETONIC-Direct 4 Q Who is Bob Marinas? A He succeeded me as running the trade association when I left in '73. Q How long did he keep that job? A I don't know. I know he's gone. Q To your knowledge, was that booklet P-2 put together after you left? A Yes. Q Now, your attorney has asked me to make you a copy of P-1 so we can go through it together. And in June of 1973, who else was authorized to speak on behalf of the Asbestos Information Association of North America to industry trade organizations other than yourself? A Well, the president obviously. And, of course, the people who would be in charge of the environmental sections of it. Q And who was the one who had the responsibility of making presentations to various industry organizations? A No one. Q Can we turn to page 3? - I'd like to refer you to the first full paragraph. A Uh-huh. Brody & Geiser (201) 738-8555 or (212) 732-0644 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SWETONIC-Direct 48 Q On page 3 the sentence says; "First, there is no doubt that the inhalation of substantial amounts of asbestos being lead to increased rates of various types of lung disease, including two forms of cancer. These are facts which cannot be denied, even if they do not apply in all circumstances and under all conditions." Is that a statement that you believe was true in 1973? A Yes. Q Do you believe that the members of the organization ascribed to that statement? A Yes. Q All right. I'd like to read you the next sentence: "The medical literature is full of solid evidence linking asbestos to disease. In my office I have on file more than 2,000 medical papers dealing with the health risk of asbestos, and hundreds more are published every year." At that time in 1973 did you have at least 2,000 papers in your office -- A Sure. Q -- on asbestos disease? A Probably was more.- Q Can you recall ever making that statement? A Yes. I mean --. Q Okay. Let me just go on to the next | Brody & Geiser (201) 738-8555 or (212) 732-0644 1 2 3 4 5 6 1 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SWETONIC-Direct 49 sentence: "Secondly* the spreading of alarm over the health risks of asbestos has as its prime spokesman one of the most talented medical publicists of the age* Dr. Irving Selikoff of New York City Mount Sinai Hospital." Did you believe that at the time? A Uh-huh. Q Do you recall stating that? A I don't recall stating it. 0 I ask you to turn to page four. The first full paragraph says: "While Dr. Selikoff has* in his zeal, unquestionably painted a far darker pictures than the facts warrant, we should always remember in his defense that the insulation workers he has been studying for far more than a decade were and still are dying from asbestos-related disease at an appalling rate." Do you believe that statement to be true in 1973? A Yes. Q Did the members of the organization in 1973, to your knowledge, ascribe to that statement as well? A I would think so. - MS. FIGUEREDO: One second. (Witness and Counsel confer). Q I'd ask you to look at page 7. Brody & Geiser (201) 738-8555 or (212) 732-0644 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SWETONIC-Direct The first full paragraph says: "In those years industry efforts to combat the spate of negative press articles on asbestos were carried on primarily by the Johns-Manville Corporation, which set up a task force of specialists in various fields to do what it could to portray the problem in its proper perspective," Were you part of that task force. A Basically I was -- not really. I didn't go to those task force meetings. Q Who went to those task force meetings? A People much higher up the ladder in the company than myself. Q All right. Do you know the names of any of them? A Well, Jack Solon would have been, the president of Manville. Q Who was that? A Clint Burnett was his name. Dr. Wright was part of that task force. People representing the environmental control side of the company. I can't remember specifically who. That's about -- I mean, there were many more, but I can't remember. Q Okay. And the next sentence says: "While some minor successes were achieved, it was found that no one could acting independently could adequately or Brody & Geiser (201) 738-8555 or (212) 732-0644 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SWETONiC-Direct effectively represent an entire industry in dealing with the press and with government officials*" Do you believe that to be true at the time? A Yes. 0 I read this paragraph to you before, and I'd like to give you the opportunity to address it. The second paragraph on Page 8* It says: "Fortunately, and properly the Association has had the wisdom to alter its original limited concept of its proper functions, and now endeavors to assume whatever activities and responsibilities it deems necessary to protect the interests of the asbestos manufacturing industry in the United States vis-a-vis asbestos and health." Did you believe that to be true at the time? A Yes. i i t 0 And was that the position of the various members of the Asbestos Information Association at the time? A I would have to assume so. I Q The next page discusses the nine fields of endeavor for the Asbestos Information Association. And it lists medical affairs, legal affairs, government ' affairs, environmental control, publicity and public relations, customer relations, employee relations and inter-industry relations. Was that true at the time? Brody & Geiser (201) 738-8555 or (212) 732-0644 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SWETONIC-Direct A I assume it was, Q To the best of your recollection? A Yes, bestof my recollection. Q Am I correct that part of the function of the Asbestos Information Association was to send medical people around the World to attend various medical seminars and meetings? A Yes. Q And what was the purpose of sending those people there? A Well, two purposes. One/ obviously/ to gain the most up-to-date information on what research was being done on asbestos and health. And secondly/ in some cases people in the industry were actually doing research of their own of various types, and they would go and present their information. Q Do you recall attending a meeting in 1972 in Lyon, France sponsored by the World Health Organization along with John Marsh? A Yes. Q I'd ask you to look at page 10 and read the first three paragraphs where it starts "To take our - activities." A Uh-huh. Yes. Q Now, I ask you to look at the third full Brody & Geiser (201) 738-8555 or (212) 732-0644 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SWETONIC-Direct paragraph where it says "Both John Marsh the president of the AIA and I attended the conference on behalf of the Association." Is the "I" referring to you, Matthew Swetonic? A Yes. Q Are you aware of a study sponsored by the Asbestos Information Association conducted at the Somerset Hospital in New Jersey? A Yes. Q Okay. What is your knowledge of that study and the AlA's role in that study? A A doctor out there believed that he had developed some sort of a treatment for mesothelioma using electricity or some such thing/ and so he had come to the Association looking for money to try the treatment, continue the treatment. That's my recollection of it. Q Do you recall the Association retaining the services of Clifford Scheckler? A I don't recall it on a pay basis. i Ii Q I'll ask you to look at page 13, the last paragraph. It says: "In the customer relations area the total effect of negative press publicity and government relations on industry customers is still today rather poorly defined. Some members of the Brody & Geiser (201) 738-8555 or (212) 732-0644 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SWETONIC-Direct 54 Association have reported serious problems in this area, while others have experienced few or no difficulties thus far," Can you recall what problems you were referring to? A I believe to the point that people* customers didn't want products of any type with asbestos in it, no matter, you know* what. Q Can you recall the Asbestos Information Association preparing slide presentations concerning the facts about asbestos and health? A Gee* not really. Q I ask you to look at page 18. It says* the first paragraph: "I personally believe that the employee relations aspect of the asbestos health problem is one that has been sorely neglected by most companies within the industry." Did you believe that at the time? A X assume. Q It says: "I feel that this could develop into a major problem area in the near future* and that steps should be taken now to deal with it. We know that Dr. Selikoff and various organized labor groups - are planning a full-scale campaign to bring their interpretation of the asbestos health problem to the attention of asbestos industry employees throughout the Brody & Geiser (201) 738-8555 or (212) 732-0644 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SW ETONIC-Direct Nation." How did you find that out/ do you remember? A No. Q The next sentence says: "If the industry permits this interpretation to be disseminated unchallenged/ the consequences could be grave indeed." Could you explain that to me what you meant by that? MS. FIGUEREDO: If you recall now what you meant by that. A No# I really can't. Q You don't remember what you mean by that? A No/ I really don't, to be honest with you. Q I ask you to look at page 23. The first full paragraph talks about the public relations campaign concerning asbestos and health. See that? A Oh-huh. Q Okay. The second full paragraph contains the following statement: "In any case, we also from time to time put out press releases on various subjects relating to asbestos-health. A few weeks ago we issued a release on the report of the advisory committee on asbestos cancers of the World Health Organization. In brief, the report concluded that the general public is not in danger from asbestos in the environment." Do you recall that? A No, I do not. Brody & Geiser C201) 738-8555 or (212) 732-0644 i 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SWETONIC-Direct Q Did you in 1973 have a file, about a half dozen files in your possession concerning important medical papers and photographs illustrating the benefits of asbestos? A Yes, of course. Q And when you left Hill and Knowlton -- I mean the AIA, do you believe those files were left with the AXA? A All the files that I had went down to the Washington office of the AIA. 0 Okay. And do you know who was in possession of those files? A Bob Marinas. He would have been the fellow who replaced me* Q Do you know today who is in charge of keeping such files? A The head of the -- I would assume the head of the AIA. Q What is his name? A Pigg, P-i-g-g, is his last name. I can't remember his first name. Q Did you deal with him on behalf of Hill and Knowlton ever? A No. Q Do you still deal with the Asbestos Brody & Geiser (201) 738-8555 or (212) 732-0644 1 2 3 4 5 6 1 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SWETCNIC-Direct Information Association? A No. Q When is the last time MS. FIGUEREDO: Wait, I'm sorry. (Witness and Counsel confer). Q w.nen is the last time that Hill and Knowlton dealt with the Asbestos Information Association, to your knowledge? A Late -- probably late *74. ' Q Okay. I'd like you to look at the bottom of page 25. It says: "And now having heard the bad ii j side of the public relations problem, it's time for the j good news. And the good news is, despite all the negative articles on asbestos-health that have appeared in the press over the past half-dozen years, very few people have been paying attention." Can you recall making that statement? A No. Q Did you believe that statement to be true in 1973? A I think I'd have to read further to find out in what context it was said. ' Q Please do so. And let me just -- A Now I understand what it's in context. Q Did you recall in February of 1973 the Brody 6 Geiser (201) 738-8555 or (212) 732-0644 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SWETONIC-Direct Association undertaking an interview - A Yes. 0 -- survey of the American public to determine its attitude toward asbestos, its awareness of the health issue? A Yes. Q And that survey was conducted by who? A Opinion Research Corporation, as it states. Q And did Hill and Knowlton have anything to do with that survey? A No. Q What was the results of that survey? ' NS. FIGUEREDO: Are you asking him of his independent recollection, or what's -- Q Right, what you member. MS. FIGUEREDO: Do you recall anything? A No, not specifics. Q Tell me what the results of the survey were from looking at this document. MS. FIGUEREDO: You can say what it states. A Well it says, "comment from summary." Since I don't have the summary I can't comment from it. So I don't, there's no way I possibly could. Q Okay. Does the text surrounding the first Brody & Geiser (201) 738-8555 or (212) 732-0644 1 2 3 4 5 6 1 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SWETONIC-Direct 59 paragraph on 26 give any meaning to that paragraph to you, that very few people have been paying attention? A I think the context is, yes, the context is that basically the vast majority of people according to this survey were neither aware of nor particularly concerned about asbestos health in their personal lives. Q Did that survey also include industrial workers? A I have no recollection. Q Okay. Can you recall if that survey was done at the request of the Asbestos Information Association? A Yes. Q All right. And it was the position of the members of the Asbestos Information Association at that time that very few people were still aware of the asbestos problem; is that correct? A No. I would assume, to my recollection, the reason the survey was conducted is because the industry thought everybody was aware of it. Q And the conclusion was what? A Thatvery few people wereaware. - Q Thank you. That was the good news, right? A That's right. Q Did you believe at the time that Brody & Geiser (201) 738-8555 or (212) 732-0644 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SWETONIC-Direct 6: Dr. Selikoff and his supporters dramatized and exaggerated the seriousness of the asbestos health problem? A Yes. Q Did you ever communicate that to Dr. Selikoff? A Not me personally. Q Did anybody at the Asbestos Information Association ever communicate that to Dr. Selikoff? A I don't know. Q Did the Asbestos Information Association or any entity on its behalf or its members ever do anything to try to counteract the positions taken by Dr. Selikoff in terms of dramatizing and exaggerating the seriousness of the problem? A Only to the point of trying to state what the facts were as they were known to the industry at the time. Q Which was that? A Basically that -- NS. FIGOEREDOs You want him to summarize all the facts that they were aware of? NR. PLACITELLA: I want to know what his basic understanding was. I'm not asking to cite me chapter and verse. I want to know what his Brody & Geiser (201) 738-8555 or (212) 732-0644 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SW ETONIC-Direct 6: basic understanding was. A Basically the statementr things that I've said before, and that is in essence that asbestos products company basically be used safely if the appropriate controls were, you know, were done. Q Let me ask you before you go on. Did Dr. Selikoff take a position contrary to that, that if you use the proper safety precautions the products could be used safely? A Basically that was the, that was the purpose of the whole program that Manville and Dr. Selikoff undertook to find ways to do that specifically for the insulation workers. Q What I'm trying to understand is why - A Whats --. Q -- the Asbestos Information Association believed that Dr. Selikoff was exaggerating the seriousness of the problem? A Because Dr. Selikoff took the single example from a health standpoint of the workers in the insulation trades, which was an extremely dusty trade, and tried to apply those numbers to everybody who worked with asbestos worldwide. And there was plenty of epidemiological data that said that just wasn't the truth, that's not the facts, people who work in other Brody & Geiser (201) 738-8555 or (212) 732-0644 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 8 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 ^5 SWETONIC-Direct 5 ways with asbestos where they're not exposed to huge amounts of asbestos dust the way the insulation trade were will not develop diseases at this sort of levels that Selikoff had in his study. Q Well, did you have a conclusion at the time that they would develop diseases at lower levels? A In some areas yes, and in some areas no. Q What do you mean by that? A In other words, if you looked at the textile mills, for example, they had problems not as serious as Selikoff's, but problems particularly with asbestosis. If you looked at asbestos cement pipe, before they got the crocidolite out you had some mesothelioma problems there. Most other asbestos cement situations there didn't seem to be any problems at all. The mining situation, for whatever reason, did not seem to be bad except in South Africa. So it was a mixed bag of things. Q Well, how long was it known that high levels of fibers were generated by asbestos insulation workers? A I don't know. I can't say. Q Okay. You did believe prior to 1973, however, did you not, that individuals who were family members were at risk of developing asbestos disease? Brody Geiser (201) 738-8555 or (212) 732-0644 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SWETONIC-Direct 6 MS. FIGOEREDO: Family members of whom? Q Asbestos insulation workers, okay, factory workers. A Only from the, from a study in England. Q And did you ever see anything that refuted that study? A I don't believe so. Q So was it that Dr. Selikoff was doing specifically in terms of what trade or exposed population that you say over dramatized or exaggerated the asbestos health problem, that's what I'm trying to determine? A Well, let me see, to try and put this into perspective. I can't remember how many people he had in that insulation workers study. But he would apply the percentages of deaths from asbestos to asbestosis, lung cancer, mesothelioma. As I said before, to everybody who worked in the asbestos industry, whether they had exposure to any significant quantities of asbestos at all, and despite the fact that there were lots of epidemiological studies around that said that basically those numbers do not apply to this, to the - people who work in this industry taken as a whole. Q Okay. That's what I'm trying to understand. Brody & Geiser (201) 738-8555 or (212) 732-0644 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SWETONIC-Direct 6 A Yes. Q You said that there was demonstration that people who worked with asbestos cement pipe could get sick/ correct? A Dating back beforecontrols were put into place. Q All right. And when was that/ '40s? A Yeah, probably. Q '50s? A I don't know, before my time. Q You say that there was evidence that people who worked in the asbestos textile factories could get sick, correct? A Yes, many studies. Q All right. There was evidence that people who worked in the asbestos insulation industry could get sick, correct? A Not in the manufacturing side. Q That I don't understand. What do you mean? A In other words, the people -- I mean, to the best of my recollection, I don't think that there were any studies that indicated the people who made the pipe * insulation had a problem. It was only the people who installed it and ripped it out that had the problem. But I may be wrong. But that's my recollection. Brody & Geiser (201) 738-8555 or (212) 732-0644 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SWETONIC-Direct 6= Q Is that because there were adequate controls put into the various factories -- A Right, Q -- where the products were made? A That's correct. Q Okay. All right. What other populations other than the factory workers who made the products did you think that Dr. Selikoff was exaggerating his findings concerning a specific population? that's what I'm trying to understand? MS. FIGUEREDO: I think you are misconstruing what he said. Before he said he was applying the rate for insulation workers to everyone else. You want him to name everyone that's not an insulatin worker? Q Are there any other trades that were exposed that you think the numbers were unfairly applied to? A The insulation workers from the outside. In other words/ people outside of the industry, the insulation workers were the only ones to my recollection that had any real serious problems. - Q Okay. During the time that you were with the AIA of North America, did you ever participate in any lobbying activities specifically with respect to Brody & Geiser (201) 738-8555 or (212) 732-0644 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SWETONIC-Direct the passing of OSHA standards? A I testified at the OSHA hearing on asbestos and discussions with their technical people during the course of it with regard to certain aspects of the proposed standard. Q You testified on behalf of who? A Asbestos Information Association. Q And its members? A Yes. Q What was the substance of your testimony? A Basically that the industry felt that the standard should be set for -- they didn't basically object to the proposed standard/ which X believe was two fibers per cubic centimeter. But they needed a couple of years to come into compliance. They said, can we do five or two years and then go down to the two. And there were, you know, nix and things in the workplace section, a compliance section that they wanted to change. I don't remember what they were anymore. Q Did the industry take, or the AIA take a position with respect to labeling of asbestos products? A I don't remember. I don't. Q Did you ever do any lobbying activities in front of NIOSH? Brody * Geiser (201) 738-8555 or (212) 732-0644 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SWETCNIC-Direct 6' A No, I don't believe so. Q How about the EPA? A Again, when the EPA was going through the process of their standard, there was testimony given by the Asbestos Association and by a lot of member companies as well, for that matter. Q And what was the substance of the testimony before the EPA by the Asbestos Information Association? A I really don't recall. Q Did you personally testify? A No. Q Do you know who didtestify? A I believe a man named Frank Zimmerman. Q Where is her from National Gypsum? A National Gypsum. Q Do you remember what his testimony was about? A Well, he was an environmental engineer, so the substance of his testimony, as I recall it, was to -- again they had proposed, as I recall, proposed a standard and, you know, to certain little modifications about what is practical and what was not practical, as I recall. Q Can you tell me what the structure of the Brody & Geiser (201) 738-8555 or (212) 732-0644 1 2 3 4 5 6 1 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SW ETONIC-Direct AIA was in terms of when you first went there in the early 1970s? Did they have various technical committees, how it was broken down? A Do you want it right at the beginning 1970 or -- Q Right. A -- or beginning 1971? It primarily really didn't change. It was - there would be a president and a vice-president, and then they would have primarily committees to deal with the environmental control part. That was the important part to them at that time. Q What do you mean by that? A To develop this sort of thing. This was --. Q You're referring to P-3? A Yeah, referring to P-3. I know they put out a whole bunch of these things, and that was an endless process that Cliff Scheckler was involved in, that you mentioned him before. Q Did they have a special committee on asbestos and health where the views member doctors met to discuss the issues? A I don't recall. Q Did they have --. A I don't really recall. Q Were there official meetings that took Brody & Geiser (201) 738-8555 or (212) 732-0644 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SWETONIC-Direct place on a somewhat regular businesses at the AIA? A Oh* yes. 0 How often did those meetings take place? A I have no recollection. Q Where would they take place? A They would normally take place in the* when I was there, in the offices in New York. Q And were minutes kept of those meetings? A They had legal counsel. Q Who was that? A Fellow named Bradley Walls. Q Do you know whether actual minutes were kept? A I really don't recall. Q Do you know whether any written summary of the meetings were ever put together and sent to the various members? A Z really do not recall. Q Were notes taken at the meeting? A I would assume so. I mean, I would take notes at the meeting. Q To your knowledge, has the Asbestos Information Association ever had a policy of destroying its old files concerning asbestos and health? A I have no knowledge of that. Not in my time. Brody & Geiser <201) 738-8555 or (212) 732-0644 SWETONIC-Direct Q Do you want to take a break? 2' A Yeah, sure. 3 I 4I | 5 Q correct? (Recess -) You told me around 1973 you left the AIA, 6 A That's right. 1 Q And you went to Hill and Knowlton? 8 A That's correct. 9 Q What was your job in 1973 at Hill and 10 Knowlton? 11 A I was an account executive in Hill and Knowlton. 12 Q And what were your jobs as account 13 executive? 14 A To assist clients who had problems with health, 15 health related issues. 16 Q And can you remember any of the clients 17 that you had at that time? 18 A Just the Asbestos Information Association. 19 Q Can you remember specifically the member 20 companies that you dealt with? 21 A Well, of course, Manville and Raybestos, 22 National Gypsum. Those were the ones we were closest 23 with. 24 Q What specifically did you do when you took 25 on this job at Hill and Knowlton? Brody & Geiser (201) 738-8555 or (212) 732-0644 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SWETCNIC-Direct A My job basically was to serve in a transitional stage while this person who replaced me was learning the issues about asbestos* Q And who was that again? A Bob Marinas. Q And did you have a title when you -- you were account executive? A Yes. Q How long did you have that title? A For about, about a year. Q Until sometime in 1974? A Yes. Q What was the next job you had? A Well the title -- I was made a vice-president in 1974 sometime. Q And what were your duties as vice-president? A It's -- it was just areward. Q You had the same clients? A Same clients. Q Did you have any clients outside of the asbestos industry? - A Yes. Q Who was that? A Society of the Plastics Industry. Brody & Geiser (201) 738-8555 or (212) 732-0644 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SWETONIC-Direct Q And how long did you have the job as vi ce-president ? A Until 1980, Q And then what job did you have? A I was named a senior vice-president in 1980. Q Did your job responsibilities change? A At approximately that same time I was -- no, it was earlier than that -- I was named deputy director of the division that I currently run. Q Which is what? A It's titled today. Scientific Technical and Environmental Affairs. Q That's the job you have now? A That's correct. Q What does that division do? A It counsels clients involved in health related issues. Q Does that include also members of the asbestos industry, or former members? A Not today. Q When is the last time that Hill and Knowlton counseled a member of the asbestos industry? A I can't speak for Hill and Knowlton. I can only speak for my division. Q What about your division? Brody & Geiser (201) 738-8555 or (212) 732-0644 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SWETONIC-Direct A I don't know what other companies do. In about five or six years ago I would guess. Q And why was it, did that relationship cease at that time? A No, this was -- this was just a project that somebody wanted our advice on something. Q What project was that? A It was CJ. S. Gypsum. And they asked whether it would be possible to put together a background paper on the use of asbestos in schools. Q And what happened with respect to that? A Their lawyers decided that that would probably not be a wise thing to do, so the project was never completed. Q Why not? A I don't know. Q When you say background paper, what do you mean by that? A Similar to the papers, types of papers I described before. Q The history of, knowledge of diseases, that type of thing? A In this particular case to assess whether there was any real significant risk to children from asbestos in schools. Brody & Geiser (201) 738-8555 or (212) 732-0644 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SWETONIC-Direct Q And that particular project was abandoned? A That' s correct. Q And you said that was around when? A It's got to be five or six years ago. Q On the advice of USG's lawyers? A As I understand it. Q Did you actually have discussions with any of their attorneys? A No. Q The division that you man, do you have doctors and technical people working in that division with you? A No. Q How is that structured, thatdivision? A I am the director of the division. There is a deputy director and then eight other professional staff, meaning and secretaries. Q That's what I am -- what do they do? A As I said before, they counsel clients who have, you know, issues that involve environment, product safety and health, FDA related matters. Q Do they actually do research for the - clients like opinion surveys, medical research? That's what I'm trying to understand. A No, we wouldn't do medical research. We're a Brody & Geiser (201) 738-8555 or (212) 732-0644 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SWETCNIC-Direct public relations firm. Q Would you do research of medical articles? A Yes. Q Do you know whether Hill and Knowlton has ever represented the Asbestosis Research Council? A I don't know. Q Do you know whether they've ever represented or had an association with Turner & Newall? A I don't know. Q What about a member of the tobacco industry? A Yes. Q What is the association between Hill and Knowlton and the tobacco industry? A We have clients who are in the tobacco industry. Q Does your division have anything to do with the tobacco industry? A Yes. Q In what sense? A It's proprietary. I really can't discuss it. Q When you say "proprietary/" what do you mean by that? MS. FIGOEREDO: The agency has certain - agreements with certain clients that aren't public knowledge that Hill and Knowlton is doing Brody & Geiser (201) 738-8555 or (212) 732-0644 SWETCNIC-Direct 1 work for them is confidential and they can't 2 disclose that information. There are signed 3 agreements to that effect. 4 Q Do you know if Hill and Knowlton has ever 5 been associated with or represented Owens-Corning 6 Fiberglas? 7A I -- I don't know. I never have been involved 8 with Owens-Corning. 9 Q Never in terms of 10 A On behalf of Hill and Knowlton. 11 Q Any involvement with respect to 12 Owens-Corning Fiberglas and the hazards of fiberglass? 13 A Not to the best of my knowledge. 14 Q What about Pittsburgh Plate Glass, has 15 Hill and Knowlton ever represented them or been 16 associated with them? 17 A Yes. 18 Q What about the Safe Buildings Alliance, 19 have you ever heard of them? 20 A No. 21 Q What about the Asbestos Textile Institute? 22 A Not to thebest- of my knowledge. 23 Q United States Rubber? 24 A I don't know of it. 25 Q Any other members of the asbestos industry Brody & Geiser (201) 738-8555 or (212) 732-0644 SWETONIC-Direct 1 that you know of that Hill and Knowlton had associated 2 with or represented in the past? 3A The only one that comes to mind is, is now 4 Raymark Corporation or formerly Raybestos-Manhattan. 5 Q Do you know anything about Hill and 6 Knowlton's association with the Asbestos Information 7 Association in Great Britain? 8 A No, I know it no longer exists, I mean the 9 relationship. But I -- I don't know whether it didn't 10 or anything. 11 Q Does Hill and Knowlton still represent 12 Johns-Manville? 13 A I believe so. 14 Q Do you have anything to do with that 15 account? . 16 A No. 17 Q Does Hill and Knowlton still represent 18 Pittsburgh Plate Glass? 19 A 20 I believe Q Do you have anything to do with that so.! Ii j 21 account? 22 A I have in the past had something to do with 23 them, but not in recent years. !!I j j 24 Q Have you ever represented Pittsburgh Plate ; 25 Glass on the subject of asbestos and health? : Brody & Geiser (201) 738-8555 or (212) 732-0644 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SWETONIC-Direct A No. Q Does your particular division maintain files on asbestos and health? A Yes. Q Okay. And who is the custodian of those files? A I suppose I am. Q Did you have a personal file on that? A No. what we have is just a lot of, you know, books, published articles on asbestos and health of one type or another. Q Do you have a file concerning correspondence or memoranda concerning your representation of present or former members of the asbestos industry? A Not anymore. Q What happened to that file? A In the normal course of destroying files they were put in a transcript file when we no longer had worked for the Association, and they've long since been i i ` destroyed. Q Have you ever -- when I said you I mean - Hill and Knowlton -- give any advice to any member of the asbestos industry on the placement of warnings on asbestos products? Brody & Geiser (201) 738-8555 or (212) 732-0644 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SWETONIC-Direct '9 A Not me personally. And I don't# I can't answer for anybody else. Q Have you ever prepared press releases on behalf of any member of the asbestos industry or organization, to your knowledge? A I would assume that when we were working for the Asbestos Information Association in '73 and *74 that we did that, but I have no recollection of what they might have been about. Q Do you know a Don Ferguson? A No. Q What about Holly Spence? - A No. Q Do you know Mr. Moster, M-o-s-t-e-r? A No. Q How about Tabolt, T-a-b-o-l-t? A No. Q Burke, B-u-r-k-e? A No. Q Okay. What about a Mr. Smedley? A Smedley? I believe he's in our Chicago office. MR. PLACITELLA: Can we have this marked P-4? (The above-mentioned document is marked as P-4 for Identification.) Brody & Geiser (201) 738-8555 or (212) 732-0644 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SWETONIC-Direct Q Looking at a document which I'll show you which is marked P-4 dated June 10, 1987, which has been produced to me by Hill and Knowlton in response to my subpoena the last time we were here, do you recall discussing in Chicago the formation of a science advisory board concerning the health aspects of fiberglass ? A Vaguely. I don't remember the nature of the discussion, to be honest with you. Q Are you familiar with the medical studies done by Dr. Enterline? A Just from what I've read in the newspapers. Q What have you read? A I don't recall anymore. Fiberglass is not a field that I know very much about. Q Okay. I'm going read to you a paragraph from this document. Just tell me if this is true or not. It says: "We have discussed the formation of a science advisory board in Chicago as well as with Hat Swetonic of Hill and Knovlton/New York City, who is well aware of Dr. Enterline and his research, the creation of science advisory boards, and is completely . familiar with the asbestos as well as fiberglass issues." Is that a true statement? A Asbestos, yes. Fiberglass, no. And as I said. Brody & Geiser (201) 738-8555 or (212) 732-0644 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SWETONIC-Direct my only information on Phil's study is what I've read in the Times and other places. Wall Street Journal, whatever. Q Rave you ever met Dr. Enterline? A Yes. Q In what context? A He was doing research for, I can't remember who, probably Manville on asbestos in terms of the, the maintenance people in asbestos factories who seem to have a higher rate of disease than normal workers. He did some work on that for, I believe for Johns-Manville. Q Did you ever discuss with him his studies concerning the health aspects of fiberglass? A No. Q Are you familiar with an organization known as TIMA? A Yes. Q What is your familiarity with TIMA? A Johns-Manville had been a member of it when I was at the company. And I just -- and I knew the executive director. In fact, he lived in my hometown where I live now. Q Who is that? i A Jack Barnhardt. Its the same organization I'm Brody & Geiser (201) 738-8555 or (212) 732-0644 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SWETONIC-Direct 32 thinking of . Q Can you recall expressing "that a panel separate from TIMA would lend more credibility than an industry group trying to repudiate Enterline's findings or offer commentary on any future research findings"? A I don't recall making a statement like that. Q Let me read this paragraph to you and see if this refreshes your memory. A This is something I wrote? Q This is a memo that Hill and Knowlton gave me -- A I see. Q -- from the Hill and Knowlton files. MS. FIGUEREDO: Can we make acopy of i , this, too? MR. PLACITELLA: I mean, you gave me the original. I i ! i, MS. FIGOEREDO:I realize that, but we : don't have it in front ofme. J MR. PLACITELLA: Well, sure, make a copy. j I'll ask a couple questions in the meantime. ' Q Have you ever heard of a man named Jerry Blizin? A Jerry B1izin. | ! I Brody & Geiser (201) 738-8555 or (212) 732-0644 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 e 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SWETCNIC-Direct Q Who is he? A Yes. Q Who is he? A He was a Hill and Knowlton employee in your Washington office. 0 And what was his job? A He was a senior vice-president down there. Q Did he have anything to do with the asbestos and/or fiberglass industry, to your knowledge? A He/ he worked on an asbestos account down there a couple years ago I know. Q Do you know what account thatwas? A It was, I believe, a Canadian asbestos coalition of some type. is? A Q What about Gary Nash, do you know who he I don't believe so. Q The same doesn't soundfamiliar to you? A Gary Nash? Q Right. A No. Q I am going to ask you to look at the second full paragraph. It says: "Swetonic worked for fifteen years in this area and knows the players in the asbestos battle as well as the fiberglass issue. Brody & Geiser (201) 738-8555 or (212) 732-0644 X 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SWETONIC-Direct 84 Swetonic said/ and we agree, that a panel separate from TIMA would lend more credibility than an industry group trying to repudiate Enterline's findings or offer commentary on any future research findings." Do you recall that? A This is not an accurate reflection of anything that I might have said. Q Well, what did you say? A To my recollection, you know, in and this does refresh it somewhat, that -- in the first place, I never told her that I was an expert on fiberglass. Q Who? A This person Holly Spence. I assume she works in our Chicago office, is all I can gather from this. And as I recall, the discussion that what, what I had suggested to her is that they get some outside experts, medical doctors and that sort of thing, to form an advisory panel to, to whoever, I guess to TIMA, yeah, to advise them on how to, how to react to these things. But never, I would not have said "repudiate Enterline's findings" or anything like that. She's putting words in my mouth that I don't recall ever saying. Q That's Holly Spence's characterization? A That's correct. Q Did you discuss the role and mission of Brody & Geiser (201) 738-8555 or (212) 732-0644 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 sw ETONic-Direct that particular advisory board with her? A I don't recall. I don't recall. Q Do you recall saying to her that the "mission statements would include a concern for general health and safety and stress the group's interest in maintaining a totally independent body for review of all research methodology"? A Probably some of these are my ideas, but I cannot remember which ones, to be totally honest with you. Q Do you know a Dr. Anderson? A Where Dr. Anderson? Oh, I see. No, I have no idea who he is. Q Do you know if Dr. Anderson is currently the medical director for Johns-Manville Corporation? A I don't know. Q You ever hear of a Dr. Dobban of Owens-Corning Fiberglas? A No. Q Do you know of any videotape made by Drs. Dobban, Anderson, and Hill and Knowlton to express the fiberglass industry's views on the health aspects of fiberglass? A No. Q Who at Hill and Knowlton would have that Brody & Geiser (201) 738-8555 or (212) 732-0644 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SWETONIC-Direct kind of knowledge? A X don't know. Q Who is in charge today, to your knowledge, of Certain-Teed, Johns-Manvil1e, and Owens-Corning fiberglass in terms of the fiberglass industry at Hill and Knowlton? A I just -- I don't know. Q Who would know that? A I believe -- like I said, Manville is the only one X know we work for. And I think Bob Stone, who you've already deposed, works for them. Q You ever hear of a woman Dottie Wackerman? A No. Q Well, your division handles issues of and advises on health to various industry members, correct? A That is correct. Q What other division of Hill and Knowlton is involved in that? A Well, you have to understand that each office will, to a large extent, attempt to do it's own consulting in this area if they can get away with it. Meaning that it's good for their, for their bottom line * for their division. So Chicago will do some of it, Washington will do some of it. We just have no knowledge of it up here in New York. Brody & Geiser (201) 738-8555 or (212) 732-0644 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 swETONIC-Direct Q You have a counterpart to your department In Chicago and Washington? A Not a counterpart. But just people who will call us in when they're faced with these sorts of issues. Q Are you aware as to whether the Chicago office is an advisor to TIMA? A I have no knowledge of that. MS. FIGUEREDO: What does TIMA stand for? THE WITNESS: Thermal Manufacturers Insulation Association. Q Am I correct that you have no knowledge concerning Hill and Knowlton's representation of the fiberglass, anyone in the fiberglass industry? A That's correct. Q Are you aware of any presentations made by members of the fiberglass industry in conjunction with Hill and Knowlton comparing the hazard of asbestos to fiberglass? A No. Q Is it the practice of Hill and Knowlton to, when dealing with a subject for presentation to the public, to make videotapes practicing the presentation on behalf of the speaker? A That would be -- not necessarily standard, but Brody & Geiser (201) 738-8555 or (212) 732-0644 1 2 3 4 5 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SWETCNIC-Direct it would be frequently done. Q Do you know whether that was ever done by any member of the asbestos industry with the assistance of Hill and Knowlton? A Not to my knowledge. Q Well, you know that Hill and Knowlton has done that with respect to Johns-Hanville and it's approach to the bankruptcy, correct? A Yes. Q You've seen those videotapes? A I've not seen the videotapes. Q You know that that was videotaped? A I knew that was going on, yes. Q And that you i;. fact had knowledge of Johns-Manville formulating a public relations campaign for employees and the public in terms of bankruptcy and the issues related thereto; is that correct? A I was not involved in it. Q Who was involved in it? A Basically it was our Chicago office. Q So does your Chicago office also represent Johns-Manville and do work independent of the New York office? A To the best of my knowledge. Q What is the division of labor or Brody & Geiser (201) 738-8555 or (212) 732-0644 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SWETONIC-Direct 89 responsibility in terms of the representation of Manville between the New York and Chicago office? A i don't really know. Bob Stone who handles Manville used to be in our Chicago office. basically where it started. So that's Q Do you know who is in charge of the Manville account out of the Chicago office now? A No, I do not. Q Do you recall ever having spoken to a Holly Spence? A Yeah, having seen this now I do. Q Who is she? A She must work in our Chicago office, is all I can say. Q When did you speak to her? A Well, just on the basis of this, it would appear to be June of last year. MS. FIGUEREDO: Do you have any independent recollection other than from this document? THE WITNESS: No, not really. I mean, just very vague. Q Did you ever suggest that research concerning the health aspects of fiberglass have been conducted through the cancer research institute? Brody & Geiser (201) 738-8555 or (212) 732-0644 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SWETONIC-Direct A I don't recall making such a recommendation. Q Can you recall any instances in the past where Hill and Knowlton advised any member of the insulation industry to set up research foundations or medical research to help assist it on the asbestos and health issues A Only the, only going back to the establishment of that joint program with Selikoff back in the late '60s. Q Other than that, you can't think of any? A No, I cannot think of any. Q In your capacity at the Asbestos Information Association, had you ever discussed the hazards of asbestos specifically with any industry member representatives other than Johns-Manville? MS. FIGOEREDO: Can you repeat the question? (Read back.) A Well, that was the purpose of the trade association. So, sure, with all the other member companies when they would come to meetings or whatever. Q I'm reading from P-2, the statement that says; "Most finished asbestos-containing products when correctly used will not produce dust levels high enough to be a hazard to workers." Do you know what is meant Brody & Geiser (201) 738-8555 or (212) 732-0644 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SWETONIC-Direct 91 by the term "correctly used"? A No. As I said, I had nothing to do with preparing that document. Q Can you tell me what publications your division reviews on a regular basis on behalf of its clients to determine whether there were any articles concerning health hazards in industry in general? A Our division, as opposed to Hill and Knowlton research which would, you know, look at newspapers and regular magazines, we have subscriptions to about 120 or 130 separate medical publications of one type or another. Q And do you have a list of that? A No. I mean -- Q You don't maintain a list of that? A No, I really don't. Q During the time that Hill and Knowlton represented Johns-Manville and the AIA Association of North America, can you tell me what industry publications and medical journals that Hill and Knowlton reviewed on a regular basis for its clients? A No, not really. It's, you know, the standard New England Journal of Medicine. Journal of American Cancer Society, you know, the usual stuff. 0 Am I correct that there is a staff at Hill Brody & Geiser (201) 738-8555 or (212) 732-0644 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SW ETONIC-Direct and Knowlton that actually, that's part of their job responsibilities? A That1s correct. Q Where does that staff work out of? A Out of my division. Q And who heads that staff? A Marie Overfors. Q How long has she had that job? A Just a year. Q Prior to that was there some staff still in place to do that job? A Just normally one person. Q Do you know if an article, for instance, was found on asbestos and health, what would you do with that article in terms of your clients? A Well, right now basically nothing because we don't have any clients in the asbestos area. Q But at the time that Hill and Knowlton represented the asbestos industry in terms of Johns-Manville and the AIA. A That function, that research function didn't exist in this division at that time. Q Did it exist somewhere else within Hill and Knowlton? A I don't really recall. Brody & Geiser C201) 738-0555 or (212) 732-0644 1 2 3 4 5 6 1 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SWETONIC-Direct Q Did there come a time when Hill and Knowlton stopped representing Johns-Manvil1e? A To the best of my knowledge they represent them today. Q When is the last time that you know Hill and Knowlton represented Johns-Manville concerning the issues of asbestos and health? A I have no knowledge of anything that we have done for Manville, personal knowledge. Q When is the last time that Hill and Knowlton represented the Asbestos Information Association? A I believe the end of 1974. Somewhere in that ballpark. Q What why was that relationship terminated? A As I said before, we were retained, specifically me, to bring Bob Marinas who replaced me up to speed. When they felt that that had been accomplished, then we were let go. Q What did you do to bring Bob Marinas up to speed? A He just, you know, he had to learn all about asbestos and health. He knew nothing about it, nothing about any of the issues. And that was just a process that went on for a period of time. Brody & Geiser (201) 738-8555 or (212) 732-0644 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SWETCNIC-Direct 34 Q Who was the individual or individuals who taught him about that issue? A Well/ taught is probably too strong a word. But basically me and the other people in the industry. Q Such as? A Well/ it would be the people from the member companie s. Q Any particular doctors instruct him or give him advice/ to your knowledge? A I can't recall. Q Did the Asbestos Information Association at the time Hill and Knowlton represented them have medical advisors? A Did the Association have medical advisors? Q Right* A I believe only through the member companies. Q Well/ that's what I'm trying to understand. Did the member companies each have a medical director or a medical person on a board or something at it AIA? A Not all of the companies had medical directors or outside consultants that worked with them. Those/ some of them did and they would/ there was a committee as I recall of those doctors. Q And would they review any publications or Brody & Geiser (201) 738-8555 or (212) 732-0644 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SWETCNIC-Direct presentations made by the AIA on behalf of the industry member s? A Yes, I believe they would, as I recall. Q Can you tell me specifically which doctors you can recall dealing with from those companies? A I believe George Wright. I believe around that time Manville had retained Dr. Paul Kotin as well. There was a doctor from Raybestos, but I cannot remember his name, I believe. And those are the only ones that frankly come to mind. Q Did any member of the insurance industry ever have any relationship with Hill and Knowlton in terms of the issues of asbestos and health? A Not to my knowledge. Q Now, was there a policy within the Asbestos Information Association that nothing could be released unless it was approved by the member companies, and that no statement should be made without the approval of the member companies? A Well, there was -- there was an approval process. I cannot specifically say what it was. I ii know that not everybody had to approve a statement that _ needed to be made in a short period of time. But I don't remember what the approval process was. Q But generally there was approval on behalf Brody & Geiser (201) 738-8555 or (212) 732-0644 I 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 3WETCNIC-Direct 96 of the industry members - A Yes. Q -- of anything that was published or presented? A That's correct. Q So, for instance, were you made a presentation to Congress, the substance of that presentation would have to be approved by the member companies or members of it? A That's correct, although I've never made a presentation to Congress or any Congressional committee. Q For instance, when you testified before OSHA - A Yes. Q -- was the substance of your testimony first reviewed by the member companies? A Yes. 0 Before any of these pamphlets are sent out are they all approved by the member companies? A If the pamphlets wereproduced when I was there, yes. What happens today, I have no idea. Q Am 1 correct that you as you sit here today you don't have a recollection of a specific approval procedure? Brody & Geiser (201) 738-8555 or (212) 732-0644 1 i, 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SWETCNIC-Direct A I have no idea. Q Do you know whether Hill and Knowlton every gave advice to Manville or any member of the AIA on product packaging? A Product packaging? Not to the best of my recollect!on. Q Do you know whether Hill and Knowlton ever prepared any press releases or publications in response to the passing of OSHA regulations on behalf of its clients? A With regard to asbestos? Q Right. A I don't think Hill and Knowlton did. ': I j Q Do you know whether the AIA ever prepared presentations or publications in response to the passing of OSHA regulations on behalf of its member companies? j i I A It is my recollection that when I was at the AIA that I prepared a press release when the OSHA standards * j | were issued in June of 1973, I believe. June of '73? | *72, sorry. Q What was the substance of the press - release? A Just simply, I believe, that the, as I recalled it was very short, that the industry found the OSHA Brody & Geiser (201) 738-8555 or (212) 732-0644 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SWETCNIC-Direct standard to be acceptable, and that we believe that they would be protective of workers in the asbestos industry. Something to that effect, very simple. Q Did you ever prepare, that is Hill and Knowlton, help prepare any statements or press releases in response to any court case involving asbestos in the industry? A Not to the best of my knowledge. Q How about the Asbestos Information Associat ion? A Not that 1 have been involved with, no. MR. PLACITELLA: I don't think I have much more. Why don't we take a couple minutes and I'll look at everything rather than do lunch. (Recess.) Q I only have a couple more questions. A Sure. Q In your capacity with the AIA or with Hill and Knowlton, have you ever dealt with a Dr. Hilton Lewinsohn? A I know him. Q How do you know him? . A He was originally -- when I first met him he was working for one of the British asbestos companies. can't remember which one. And then he came to the I Brody < Geiser (201) 738-8555 or (212) 732-0644 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 16 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SWITCNIC-Direct ;; States and had a job with Ravbestos. That's how I know him. Q Can you recall the last time you had any contact with him? A Oh, cosh, probably fifteen years ago would be my best guess. Q Was the company that Lewinsohn worked for in Great Britain and a member of the Great Britain AIA? A Yes. Q Is that the context in which you met him? A Yes. G What is the relationship between the AIA and Great Britain and in the United States -- A No formalrelationship. Q -- at the time? A I'm talking fifteen, sixteen years ago. Q Right. A There was no formal relationship. We did not have joint meetings or anything. But when their people were in the States that he would meet with our people on various aspects of environmental control or whateve r. . Q You would exchangeinformation? A Yes. Q Now, did the AIA in Great Britain have any Brody & Geiser (201) 738-8555 or (212) 732-0644 1 4, 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SWETONIC-Direct medical advisors to your knowledge? A Yes, they did. Whether they were member company people or outside consultants, I'm not totally sure. Lewinsohn, for example, he was a doctor. My impression was he worked for the company. He might have been an outside consultant. 0 Do you know when the AIA of Great Britain was established? A Prior to the one in the United States is about the best I can tell you. Q Is my understanding correct that Hill and Knowlton at no time employed medical advisors concerning the issue of asbestos and health? A That's correct. Q They simply took advantage of whatever their clients' medical people --. A That's correct. j Ii Q And lastly, is my understanding correct that the AIA of North America still exists today, to your knowledge? A Yes, because we get their newsletters. Q How often do you get their newsletter? . A I really don't know. I don't know what the frequency of that is. Q Do you know where the AIA is located? Brody & Geiser (201) 738-8555 or (212) 732-0644 S WETC NIC-Direct 1 1A Near Washington somewhere. 2 Q What is contained in the newsletter? 3A As I recall, and I, you know, don't go through 4 the thing very frequently just simply because we don't 5 have any clients, reports on new health studies new 6 regulations, you know, that sort of stuff. 7 Q I don't think I have any other questions 8 at this time. I don't know. Thank you very much. 9 MR. CATINO: I have no questions. 10 MR. CONNELL: I have no questions. 11 MR. LEE: No questions. 12 MR. BOYLAN: No questions. 13 EXAMINATION BY MR. PLACITELLA: 14 Q Have you ever had any dealings with Dr. 15 Ray Murphy? 16 A No. 17 Q How about Margaret Becklake? 18 A I'm familiar with the name. 19 Q How about Hans Weil? 20 A Yes. 21 Q What is your connection with Dr. Hans 22 Weil/ or how did you know him? 23 A He was, when I knew him he was a professor of 24 epidemiology or some such thing at University of Tulane 25 Medical School. And yeah, okay. I have to change Brody & Geiser (201) 738*8555 or 212) 732-0644 i 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SWETONIC-Direct something I said before. I believe that the AIA did hire him as a consultant on the EPA because I believe he testified on our behalf at an EPA hearing. I be 1ieve . Q Did he advise the AIA on issues of asbestos and health from time to time? A Yes. Yeah, he did. Q How was he compensated? A I really don't recall. Q Do you know if he was paid by the hour or per project? A I really don't remember. Q Have you ever heard of a Dr. Roger Mitchell? A NO. Q How about Stuart Brooks? A No Q Ed Gaensler? A The name is familiar, but I don't have a context Q How about Mark Urtell? A No, I amnot familiar with the name. Q This struck me, I wanted to ask you this question before. Why is it that you have nothing to do with Johns-Manville anymore if you knew them so Brody & Geiser (201) 738-8555 or (212) 732-0644 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SWETCNIC-Direct intimately and worked there? A Well, two things. Our Chicago office wanted the business, because as you know Manville is in Denver. And so they, for their own basic financial benefit as an office, they kept me out of it. And the second part is, is that they as I understand it, we were primarily hired to deal with their financial situation, which I know nothing, you know, that's not part of my best -- I don't know anything about that sort of stuff. So that's really the answer. Q When you first went to work at the AIA and after leaving Manville - A Yes. Q -- who was paying you? A TheAIA. Q How was the AIA financed? A By the contributions of member companies. Q Was it an annual contribution? How does it work? A I don't really recall the law firm that handled how the billings were done. - Q What law firms? A This one, this fellow before, that I mentioned before. I don't remember the name of the firm. Brody & Geiser (201) 738-8555 or (212) 732-0644 SWETCNIC-Direct 1; 1 Q Now, you said in your professional 2 capacity you've had no contact with the AIA since 1 97 4; 3 is that correct? 4A That's correct. We have not done any work for 5 them since then. 6 Q Have you had any personal contact with the 7 AIA? 8A Yes, I made a speech to them about five years or 9 six years ago, for which we were not compensated. 10 Q Concerning what? 11 A Advising them that basically they ought to do 12 more public relations, trying to get business. 13 Q A business promotion? 14 A That's right, exactly. 15 Q Anything else other than that? 16 A No. 17 MR. PLACITELLA: Okay, thank you very 18 much. I don't have any other questions. -*T 19 (Adjourned 1:01 p.m.) 20 21 22 23 24 25 Brody & Geiser (201) 738-8555 or (212) 732-0644 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 CERTIFICA E I, DIANA L. R. SENATORS, Notary Public ar.d Certified Shorthand Reporter, do hereby certifv that prior to the commencement of the examination MATTHEW M. SWETONIC was duly sworn by me to testify the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth. I DO FURTHER CERTIFY that the foregoing is a true and accurate transcript of the testimony as taken stenographically by and before me at the time, place and on the date hereinbefore set forth. I DO FURTHER CERTIFY that I am neither a relative of nor employee nor attorney nor counsel for any of the parties to this action and that I am neither a relative nor employee of such attorney or counsel, i and that I am not financially interested in the action. ^ ___ DIANA L. R. SENATORE, CSR XI01397 Brody & Geiser (201) 738-8555 or (212) 732-0644 :> ft 2- AAd (3) 4 4 c: r.ew c:v;: 5 were s^: ccr.irsi ihmqs :*i: :::se disease. le r us luck 4: arm :: these .'ic::rs m v:r:.. first, mere :s no dcu.it that the 1 nh elation cf suistar.cial aroints of is:4i;:j cm lead "3 increased races cf various types c: 1m? disease, including two dams ci cancer. There are faces wr.ich cannct re denied, even if they do not apply in all circurstmces and under all conditions. The radical literature is full of solid evidence linkin? asccstcs 00 disease. In ry office, I have or. file r-ora man 2.11C radical capers dealing vim one health risks of ashestes and hmdrnds i\cr* are published ever*/ year. Secondly, the spreading of alarr over me healm risk of aithestoa has as its prune spokesman me of one tost talmtad aedical publicises of the 154 ------ Zz. Irvin? j. Selikorf if Haw York's Mount Sinai Hospital. .Vot only 13 cr. Selikoff capAile ci ir:us.:.; "da -ra ar.i ::.5 - ccr.sarva tv/a repcr-ar police 5 das::.; ar.i predicaicr.s ad zde rivices c AS5SS555, da a as d.jc s.rri'Ar.iei di.r-sali w;;.w. a araup . ziltr.zid pc: 1;: ccr.sciy-s dssaa.izai vr.o diva ca; "5 Sir. A 5 54 5 5 d^< 15 155 5555.55 S 0 1 ;A r.55i5.V 5 in a .unr.er unknown m this c: ar.y country. I deleave it is accurate :: say that tr.esa new laws, s;;:. as tr.e Occupational Safety and H e a 11 r Act, the Clear. Air Act t.u.e Consumer Protection .Act, ar.d others, have forever alters; the concept of tr.e free enterprise system as it was known m this country for a hundred and fifty years. Thus, in ccraoination, these throe factors created a situation m which a cadre of freshly created federal ager.c with strong statutory authority, were prodded into assi^nr? priority status to asdestos dy Cr. Selihofd ar.d his fclluvsrs who used and ir. scr.e cases misused the $reat wealth of negate*, asdestos-health data contained i:\ the medical literature to achieve these ends. In short, the asdestos industry was sir.yled cut decause it was vulr.endlc to attach, decauce there was somecr.e willing, i.r.ss: aruticuu, to iaad that attach, an dacause Congress rad sracicusly crovidcc tr.e vor.iclu.* for such an assu How non of wr.;: -r. sm::c;o sovs a::-: an*i true, and ::.2 .runner m w.tirn be nos abused one evsilsole decs in crdor :: blow up at. essentially occupational :r:; into a national calanty ire topics which we s.Ull txamne bit l*ter. 7ne background of industry efforts to deal vitn t asbestcs*naltn trebles as a national issue gets bee* r.aar 1 e decade, to Ir. SeliXoff's now farous 19d4 Stainer on esbe disease At one :*ew York Academy of Sciences. While this itdid .turn to pnex the industry's conscience About Asbestos a heeler., t.te crcOle.-t still remained one of limited public end press inter fist until Around 13a 7, w.-.en one media bo gar. bteti; tbt medical busr.ci rearming ::: stones tnat would grionosi portray American industry's supposed complete disregard for Che environment and for one heaith And safety of its workmen end tha Are no an public. Tb e aobeotcc-heaith problem was four. to ie tailcr-nada ::: sue.': s:::;s and lr. Sel.Ac:: was r.tt i sen As * startmg w:^. ?acl 3rcdeur's inrar.cus No-./ '.'cr*j aztweie of March 1363, asdustos has sines grewr. ante an a care o: ca;:: cress .nearest. In :.k.:5t y a a r s , industry :::::s to c c re a t ::.e sea of negative press articles on asdestes were carried oa prune: dy the Cohns-har-villa Corporation, which set up a tasX force of specialists m various fields to do -net it could to port: the proile.t in its proper perspective, t-fcila sera successes were achieved, it was found that no one coreany act independently could adequately or effactivaly represent an er. industry in dealing with the press and with govcrnr.ent c:::;. As a result, m lata 1973, eight companies gathered Sew YorJc City to launch the Aadcitos Indcrsiasion Association of North America, which was franxly patterned after the Cnti 3 Frc.t cur rather r.:r::w 1 puolio reiiticr.s ; the Association has c::-:. in one last tvo years into an errant ration with pr;:r;:;4S m ei^ht ,tu;cr fields c: encsa. These axe: Medical Ai Le?al Affairs Governnunt Affairs Envircrvcantal Control Publicity and Public JUiaticns Cui;:r*r JUlaticr.o Lrolcyee delations, and 1 n t x r - indis try Delanor.s . In briefly discussing AIA activities in each of tn.as fields, I will leave ^vi:r.:r.: affairs .*:: last, .-.at because it hex e lew priority within the Association --- in fact it is currently the aicst irocrcanc -- hut because it is the rest ccapiicated and requires the tou discussion. To coke our a V i or.a ao a o. recital arrair : 0 OS 4.1 COViCUJ fart tnat if an orgar.i :i tier. .s sped_< autrcritatively or. a :redical natter, it r.us: net or.!/ scared ir. the literature of tnat particular radical sui;ct iut it .test also kee? itsal:: constantly inferred of new disc and developments. tnis ve ?uvs accomplished in a .turner of For example, Oy sending re?:resentatives to important medical nettings, suer, as tne 197 2 : nternaticnal conference on tne diological effects of asoestits held at lycr. in Trance, whim sponsored dy World Kealtn Cr sanitation. tSoW dor.n :ursn, tna President of c.ha A2A, ar.d 2 attended tU: conference on dar.alf of tne Association. We also meet on an irregular Oasis witn various r*o_c experts in tne field, dot.n :';itr tne United States and aorood. to review and discuss recent duvel d \ Cur literature research is eased considered/ oy oceivmd the monthly medical paper c: the -3of Occupational and Snvircnmencal Nealrn m ncnrred, uch is funded by the C-ebec Asbestos Minins Association. This year, for the first cine, the A1A has elected to sponsor medical research of its own. " .Currently underway is 4 completely AIA/NA funded study of chest sounds, which is bein? conducted by Ir. a.\ymcr.d Murphy of the Harvard School of Public Health. The purpose of the study is to find a new method 0: determining an individual's potential susceptibility to asresccs The Association has also recently decided to ccntnbuti to soao very exciting research into a possible cure for nasotholiocia throu^n electromotive treatment. This study is bein? conducted at Somerset Hospital in New Jersey. In the le^il affairs area, the Association oertioipitu: m an anucuo ourai capacity in the law suit brought by the Industrial Voicr. Cepartr.er.t ci the Afl/CIC a?i;:.5; the Occupational Safety and h'ealth Administration or. the isoestcs star, car w":::. was considered Oy :.-.e Justice department to de the Past one filed, the Association supported CSKA against tr.u -- - - somewhat of a uncus position for an ' industry to find itself in vis-a-vis a governmental regulatory- agency. Oral argument or* the case vas held. April 4 in Washington. While a decision his yet to Oe handed down by the Court of Appeals, we are confidant that tr.a case will da decided in cur favor. the Association has retained the services cd C. 1. ShecXler, with whom many of you ere familiar, as cur special consultant on environmental control affairs. At the present tin, Cliff is wornr.g with cne AlA/'iA Environmental Control SuO-Cocsittea on the development of e senes of five Association compliance manuals on the CSKA standards. We expect to have these rnr.uaIs available within a short of time. - 11 - last 'ear, because cf the well established -:e..i:.. of the renorane .'-1'-2: r.ethcd as 4 tcol m the oscs; industry, the AIA undertccx the sponsorship of a study at 4 research laboratory in California to detarn.ine the effect cf certain variables ch the overall accuracy of the he the. The results 0: the stucy snowed an error factor of plus or car.us 50 per cent under the nest faveraoie of r.easurin? conditions These results were sent to doth CSKA end to the national upaticr.il Safety and Health. A nurua: of the reccnhendaticns ccr.tatr.ed ir. the study far ir.prcvm? the Accuracy of the reshed have ceen incorporated into e sccn-tc* de-rsleesed revised NIC5H operations manual cn fiber ccur.tmr. In the customer relations area, the total effect of negative press publicity and ^svarnrant regulations cn industry customers is still today re oner poorly defined. Sene mergers of the Association have ncortod serious f.rsoler.s m this area, while others hae experienced few or no difficulties thus- for. into cne ci five caterer:.** "irs t, t.he customer has tnereugnly investigated M situation and Ms found ha car. no longer afford to ccr.ti using asnestes or asbestos-containing products, either becaus the ccs ci control is so high cr because be would ,wavi to raise the erica of bis product to 4 level thac would aaJee it ncn-cinpetitivo wit* r.cr.-esbestcs containing substitutes. econo, the easterner Ms not tnereugnly investigate Ms situation and only tmnM that he can no longer afford to continue using asbestos Third, the easterner has read ono or .tore negative articles on asOestos m the public press and has Mda the sr.a decision that "we ought to get thot dangerous stuff cut of plant.* Oden, decisions of this nature ore forced on to ur.agc.tent by ill - informed medical advisors cr safety and health directors. "our, tn s customer has neither a control prccisn is he particularly afraid cf using asbestos in his own plant. "cse or hi* c:-:i:.:;:;! whore finished do contain asbestos will j;:ess the divers health effects c: ascestcs m trying to take business away !::o hi-. Customer rears :: this nature are essentially -gut" reactions and hense extremely difficult to deal with. And ..T. five, the customer has none or these problems or fears out he has been advised by a government orficial or inspector that he would be better oif if he quit using esbestes or asoesto containing products m his plant, while this prctlea does not appear to be widespread, we have learned of a r.iToer of situatic: where it has occurred. Actions of this nature by gevernmont officials are totally uncalled tor and sr.culd bo dealt vitn promptly and decisively. The best solution is to obtain comcle- details on on a incident and then to register e formal complaint wit,*, tie offending c ffield's immediate superior or wit.- tie governmeno agency invclved. Tie Associ aticn's first reaction to tic overall customer ?,rciiem was to Approve fur.de for a scries of four regional sun.mars at vhicr. industry customers would id given a r.umier of idsio presentations on tie various aspects of tic asrestos-ieal::i proolem. Tie seminars were tentatively scieduled J:r tie So:ring of tiis year. Hcw<vr, ti.e experiences of a nur-ier of cur merier companies sieved tiat. general catciall type seminars of tie type originally ccntenolated would not ie effective in dealing wit-i th seventy of customer relations ortolans, order to do Vic jci properl '// it was found t.iat customer presentations have to ic tailored t o tie neats and proclams of tie individual customer. As a res-- the Asscciaton cancelled its scnsdulac series of ser.i-.irs ind instead elected to develop 4 r.'lexer of paexaped slide presentations or. suer, tcpics as "The facts About Asoestcs and Health," and *Vncsrstar.din? the CiHA Peculations , whim could be used by .mender cccpAr.ies as part of a tillered presents;ion to individual, customers. These slide presentations ere still in the worJts, ` but should be available shortly. As with custcror relations, the Association feels that employee relations is i prcolem best handled by the individual render companies. Thus :'ir, t.-.e AlA's sole contnution in this area of industry concern his been to prepare the drad t of an Lroicyeo Safety and Health Guide on AsbestosKealth. The draft was made available to the manner companies for their own use and at least or.e, Saybestos-MAnhatton. has produced it in ieexlet form for distribution to all its employe - 13 - I personally believe ::.i: tbe employee riliticr.s ai.:e:: ;; tne aaiestcs-bealtn pftcler. is ere tr.a - bos beer, sorely neglected b/ most companies vicrin ere industry. I dael t.-.i; true could develop into 4 na;or problem area in cbe rear 5uvand trot steps should ba taxer, new to deal with it. w <r.cv that Cr. SeliXctd ar.d various crganioad labor groups are planning a full seal* campaign to bring tbeir interpretation oi :.w.i ashestoo-beaitr problem to the attention o' asbestos industry employees erreugbeut tre nation. Id ;>.e industry permits tbit interpretation to ba disseminated unchallenged, the consequences could be grave indeed. .A-a - 13 - ;ustry relit: :r.s are rest defined as <eep..*.r the industry ;ed dttt: i.r.s srtar.t .tew deve icp.Tstts ct tte 50verr.ter.tal , r.edu i! and press relatucrs fronts that affect asbestos. TMs is accc.-.-.piushcd wuthir. the dy periodic distributions or d. cu.ter.ts end r.f emotion to the server ccnoar.ifts and '3 c hrs ct cur : dilute lust. ??. vdiu e of tr. s uctuoity car. be failed by no fact that our overall t :st increased fre.t aper exurna ely a doien aims in 197 1 to or ft than 60 a year later, whi we h*ve hud to tn.t t.te list jcr.iwiu: thus ya- for lo^is reasons, ve :;:2 rrscueno rscucs:; -e s:;ll :ece *3 it placed cn the list :.u: the catena! w sene ait is i read ar.d -s od considerail* value to those receiving :t. Next :: scvernr.eht affairs, cur outlie relations 4 puti.city i::;:::;es :::.s:;:;:e the single U:;es: :r.suu: 0: tuoe, e:fare and .tcr.ty v;the Association* Those cf who are fanliar with the craat.T.er.c that astestos has Seen receiving in tho outlie press ever the years can readily understand why this activity ronxs so high cn our priority 1. What you ray not understand ere the reasons why our extensive efforts in dealing with the .nation's tress have tee: so unsuccessful to date in producing the thecreti; balanced- cr positive* story or. asoettes and health. The sir.pl* is tr.a standpoint :: " today's young activist :!?c::2:( industry is tne bad guy, and nothing w do, say or achieve can ever cr.unga this ;*::ess.:r.. / It we spend $1C3 million dollars on environmental control, the press either says we cuf^c to have done it tan years ago or that ve should hava spent 200 million. Id wa sponsor medical research, they say ve are trying to buy daverade results. Id we are opposed to ridiculously stringent standards, they say we are in favor oi letting cur employees die. A television executive in Minneapolis described this new treed d reporter as being * so intent cn demolishing the establishment that they would blindly destroy the credibility od the media in the bargain." Another IV executive, this tise ia Chicago, stated "they want to taXe moral and political and social judgments on their assignments and then taXc sides. Sever itind getting tha ducts straight." :: Xi 4 reaul .as "industr as a .tn.tr.mr' 0 S 0 t *. asbestos will repair. 4 hot r.aws it an ctir sc Imp us m news is tad. The "^ccc" that asbestos doe* a-n prc tic-r.rnp lavas and proparty as of r.o concern to the press. T,'>arx*aaifc, y efforts to protect workman and the ge*r*l pillar- ima asbestos exposure wall always be given .taninni ccviratp*, svct information as directly contrary to tii pcr^r^ar aa irresponsible industry producing & *>' " yeefcaxt list is the sola element of .taws worthiness ar tn usce^tmi r-cry. The press relations battle nil vcr., not when the media starts to print pcsa-tlr*** no: 'mioaeed ertaoles about asrestcs, but whan the preri cutr-s** as print anything about asbestos at *11. As lrr-r &s .nessra/re tew; on asbestos-health continues to be genentad, ti* r.^uiia vail continue to eat at up. The madia wall cei* ernes* to carry such stories when the generation of nigticu-i* t*ews cesses ... -li lt is 43 ample 4s that. ?cs;:;vi cr balanced stories are a cbirara, since they are, by definition, not newsworthy. let t* ?ivt you 4 very specific exar.ple cf tr.is las principle In action. As test of you already knew, one Association Is currently er.pa,;ab in an extensive ca--.pai~r. ;; interest the trade press in articles on the benefits of asbes and on industry acccrplishrents in the envircnr.antai control arte. the trade press* unlike the national or public nedia, is .turn tore receptive to articles of tn.is nature and wo expec to be set-:.; a nurd:ar of positive stones in tna trade trass in tna next few tenths. In any case, va also froa tire to tira put out trass releases on various subjects relating to asbestos-health.. a few weeks 490, wo isourad a release on tna report of tna advisory comt on asbestos cancers of the World Health, Organisation. in brief, tna report concluded that one general public is not in dinenr frru asbestos in th.e environrent. Tnus far, we have received near!/ two dcren press clippings dr or. trade purl.rati that carried the story. 7c :.k.s best cd cur 'sncvledge, tot a newspaper, news ragaoine, radio cr TV station, cr any other segrant od the public .redes ran the story, with the single exception d a Trane.-, language paper in Toronto. As I said bedcre, id the news is good, the press ain't interested. Nonetheless, the Association has no intention of m abandoning our edderts vis-a-vts the national redia. We will continue to issue appropriate press releases, cooperate with daaturs writers comp stories or. asoestos, write scathing letters to the editor vr.it those stories appear, and in short, do all we can to present the press with, a balanced view of the asbestos-health Situation. Cur rest recent eddort in this regard has been the preparation and printing cd an Asbestos and Health Indorsation file, which va have railed to sere* 5,000 newspapers, negatm.es. 5 trade publications radio and TV stations, scic.-.re writers e:: across the Vnaced States. I .V.dv brought a haif-docen files alcr.p with me that you can taxe a leer, at a- ter me meesanp. Basically, the file contains copies of five industry position papers union were distributed earlier, as well as a nutter of i.tpcrtant medical papers ar.d a pair of photographs illustrotinp the benefits od asbestos and industry efforts at environmental control. You may be interested to know that the item chosen to illustrate the benefits of esbestos is a fire-proof asbestos suit. Whale we don't expect our information file to change the w.nole attitude of the press toward asbestos, we are hepanp that tha media wall maxe use of it to.accurately report the industry's position when doan? stories on the sub;eet. And now, having heard the bad side of the publac relations problem, it's tamo for the ?ood news. 5 Xnd the good r.cwj is .despite All the r.z?iz~ on a s t e 3 to 3 * h e al th that have Appeared m the :;a: over the pas t haid-doten years, very few people have dee.-. r.g 4mention. .re explain. :n rmruary, ::.i Association undertook a persona1 interview research survey oi the Ar-arican public to dstcr^ir its attitude reward asrestos ar.d its awareness od the health issue, the survey was conducted by the Opinion Research Corporation during harm and April, here man 2,0CC dencgraphiraily selected Americans were interviewed. Z have here with ti suddiciert copies dor all od you od a surrary od the resuits. ( CChUVd.N'T rRCy* 5UMhARY ] fledore going on to describe cur activities in the government relations area, I think it nigr.c be interesting at this point to take a very bcicd look at the r-anner m which Zs. Seiikoif and his supporters have use! his rasear: results to dn.r.i::: and exaggerate the seriousness of the asbestos-health preole.?., Z have two slides wnict :c;.t: :nu cut rather conclusively. s:::: :-------rissaxch cata The slide shews the actual results of Or. Sell four mortality studies of asbestos workers. The matters in " parenthesis beside the figures for total burner of workers indicate those wno have so far died from all causes. The percentage figures alongside the total number of deaths froa asbestosis, lung cancer and r.escthelic.ta are based on the total number of deaths from all causes, not on the .venter of 'fat vorkerc in the study. The rsost important study of the lot is the second froa the top, snowing the deaths froa asbestos-related disease among all manners of the insulation workers union, regardless - :3 - ci length oi exposure. Vou wiii zzza ~i: 1* rsrr c: tr.cs* worker: wr.o have died thus *xr -hr?* *rrr cr.a :; the three eshestos-related disease*. These, then, are the facta Tsu la^i^adi wares drerr.. This is what he knows fres his ewa ^rtetshi^artirr. s. Sew let us take 4 look At wr.it he has dans voi.ti ^tis iSyurts ia order to draratite the problem. . sl:ze 2------- pscsrsaia This slide shows 3r, Sell Its.Zi"* arjdor-rr. trrrs arcut asoestos-relatad deaths in the into details, Er. Seiikcff has * y the sir.pie procedure oi aulciplysn? ;.ts T^ararra^e af dear, s iro.t asbescas-raiatad disease aasn? hua insaduouac. workers by the taaal nuabcir of employees in rxa ertu-te urdustry. - :3 Ycu will disc :.c:t that ha his used his projected da* estimate :: enormous heights ever he past year ly sine / ir.creasm? the base figure ci er.p uyees exposed, while s::l retaining the srecentage rr.ultiplie od 14 par cans he mg expe e.-.ced Sy tne insulation workers. I nignc point cu: that this tac ic, however improper ar.d deceptive, has Coen an enormous success since each raisin? of the estimate has earned Sr. Selikcdd correspondingly grater coverage iy the media. .Vo diner example exists o the total gullibility of the press tna.t the manner m whim Sr. Selikcfd manipulated and played on their prejudices to gain publicity. t can readily envision the lot of them up there at Mount Sinai laughing themselves silly ever the ease with, which they bamicccled the press with these trumped-up predictions Pleas* don' t set r.e wrong, 94r.tler.en# : have 1.;:. doubt that the insulation workers are in fact dying as ratio, aa Dr. Seli.'oif says they are. The problem as he has trantla their mortality experience to trie rest cf the entire industry which is absolutely ridiculous. lace, the estimated number of employees in the industry is too high -- five tires too high to he ' * precise. Sven sore irp ertant, according to an analysis by the Association of more cha:n a doten mortality studies, including these of Dr. Sclixcff, ;:ur prediction is that approximately 2$ , 200 past and present employees m the asbestos industry have died or will event;.ally dia of asbestos-related disease, This is less than or.e-tniirteenth of Dr. Selifccffs nos: recent estimate. Za addition, our figures show that 13 of the If, 103 deaths --- or 80 per can - --- will occur among these m the insulation trades. of U3 in the s::.::.? and manufacturing areas of the industry we to die of asOestcs-related disease end that, all things *1 considered, there is absolutely nothing that we can do to :: prevent it. the only thing w can do is to clean up oar plants to assure that those entering the industry in the future will not heve the'sere experience. sizzz 2----- Gcvt^shr:;? acinous Within the past year and a half, the main tnrust of Association effort has shifted to the government affairs front, the principal agencies in Washington with which vo have lean dealing are, of course, the Occupational Safety and health Adainistrati on; the Environmental Protection Agency: the Toed and Drug Administration; the 3ureau of Mines; and, to a lesser degree, the National Institute of Occupational Safety and Haalth, end the NACior.il c; Health, been c: w-,;n Are mainly involved in research . In addition,-a raw weexs ago we were contacted by the Federal Trade Commission, which had received a petition froa the Center :'or Ccienco in the Public Interest requesting an investigation or consumer uses of asbestos for the purpose or determining wnether certain products ought to be labeled as hazardous and whether warnings should be required on all ' advertiser.*;::* for tnose products. On the basis of ay meeting with an investigator frea the FTC I would say that we have little to worry bcuc m this particular araa. Slid 4------ CSHA * The Occupational Safety and Health Administration has been of enormous concern to the industry over the past II months. As most of you already knew, the Association exp ended tr erne ndous efforts during the six month period - :: - leading to cho prcrr.ulpation of last Jane's CSHA star.carco :a astescao. : -- ** 4 '?*'-?# or the effectiveness of :. eocai industry involvement m this wst crucial matter that at eleven ran requirements an the standards, the industry position was accepted totally fcy CSHA on nine of the eleven, .'tout fifty percent c.n a tenth, ar.d totally rejected on only one, Sow, of course, OSHA is planning to redo the standard pacJtage ar.d we ere working closely with thorn on this project. The first step will he the formation of a 15 man advisory ccmiccse to review the current standards and any additional data and information chat has teen developed in the year since the standards were promulgated. Working in cooperation with nine other trade associations, including your own, we have selected four individuals as industry* wide reconaandations to CSKA for the duo* so-called employer spots on the advisory committee. The four cccplu jclic.cwere Cuy Caarielscn, Prcsidcht cf Nicclet; Ike '.'diver :: Payees cos-Manhattan; Sr. "red Purdsacx, vice President for Research and Cevelopr.er.c cf Johns Mar.v: lie; and Cliff Shecxier In discussing the formation of me advisory committee w:w John O'Neill of me CSKA Standards Cevelcpr.ent Section, we were asked to add a couple of names to the list so that CSKA would have at least the seaalar.ee of a selection. This we have agreed to da. The committee will be given up to nine months ta ccr.plate tis deliberations and prepare for CSHA a revised stancard package. This will he followed by puaiio hearings, approximately a year from now. w*o da not expect to see a new standard promulgated before the Tall of 1974 25 It is cz course impossible to determine at tnis t.r whit the new standards will loo* l.x, ^wavir, I would vs:.: tn say cr.at they will ci::a;:.;y r.ct be less strict than tne cnes we have tbday, alenough they will probably be less confusing and leave less rocra for employer interpretation. Something will unruastianably be done to improve the current difficulties with the monitoring requirements. SZ.1ZZ 5 ---- MIOSH these slides, by the way, ere merely simplified organisation cnarts of the venous agencies with which we dee in Washington. tho main function of the National Institute ter Occupations! Safety and Health is to conduct research and to prepare so-coiled Criteria Packages, which are essentially recommendations to CSHA for standards cn various materials and chemicals. Such a package on ashestes was prepared i by SICSH at the tir.e -*" C$HA proceedings last .air. VIC3 will :.3t be preparing & new or revised ::::e;:i package for t upcc.ting review of the asbestos standards. I do not relieve it would be unfair to say that of all the agencies Washington dealing with asbestos, Cr. SeliXoff has bad his greatest influence on the young idealistic scientists and doctors at SICSH. Consequently, . industry influence is veaxost m thi* agency. It was NICSH, after all, that made the original reccrctendacicn for a two filar standard in the asbestos industry. SISZZ $------- I?A Next to CSHA, the Snvircnnenital Protection Agency the greatest potential of any fedaral, agency for adversely affecting the future cf the asbestos industry m this count.ry. Net only is the IPA responsible for d eve loping and enferem air and varar pollution standards, bu t t.-.e Toxic Substances "\1 M V; s? 3 Control \ct, r.;w pending m Congress, will ilsc at. I?A :unction aitor passage. :r.;i reason, I an pleased to da sole to say that the asbestos industry das an excellent relationship with the I?A. no finer proof of this exists than the fact that there was net a single no;or industry rsccrrcr.endation or suggestion aade to the ?A at the public hearings on the proposed asbestos emission regulations that was not accepted either in to to or m principle m the final standards, which were published in early April :: this year. We are presently wording with the ?A on the development of waste water effluent standards for asbestos manufacturmg plants. w fully expect that these standards will turn out to be as reasonable as the air pollution regulations. The proposed effluent standards are scheduled to be published in the Federal Register m early July. This will be followed tv ' public hearings, zrzzzzJuly c: August, with tnc final standards doing promulgated in in* rail, per.-.ups *3 early as CctcOcr. We are also planning, in the near future, to meet m Washington wo.tr. representatives fron the standards development and enforcement tranches of the S?\ to discuss with them questions of interpretation and compliance policy with regard to the r.ew air pollution regulations. w have already resolved cn* interpretation question that is of special interest to the asaeotos textile industry. Approximately two weeks ago 1 was asked Oy a aecder company of the Association to find out whether the I?. was planning to require the manufacturers of aslestos safety clothing to register as potential emission sources under the law. In discussing the situation ever the pr.cne wu.'-, compliance offi; 1A * S , I argued that the producers of ASbAStC safety ciccnmg were not r.anufecturers as defined in the regulations but were instead only fAiricaticrs of an Asbescc: product, end as such. should not have to register AS po c e n c1 a emission sources After cur phone conversation ended, 4 brief meeting was held among the Z?A ccmpiiAnce people. X was then CAiied hack And informed that they Agreed with mo that the SAfety clothing producers should not be required to register. Vhile this richer minor problem cook Approximately an hour And a helf end two or tnree pncr.e cells to resolve, it is indiCAtiva of the type of day-to-aiy services chst the Associstioh provides for its merger comp Ames. \ Over the past year the feed and drug Administration shown *n increasing ::.:e:8j; in asbestos as a pcssitia hazardous contaminant m various foods, beverages and drugs, lacs in 1972 they sec up an asbestos cask fores to rivuw the situation ar.d to propose regulations and guidelines where appropriate. * Thus far they have concentrated their efforts in.two areas --- or. the use of AsOestos-ccntar.ir.atad talc in food packaging and m cosmetics, and secondly, on the use of asdestes calulose filter pads m the beverage and drag industries. ?n our first meeting with the TZA task force last :Jover-dr on the filter prcolera, they demonstrated an Appalling ignorance about the health hazards of asbestos. Since then, they have gotten one heck of a lot smarter, due et least in part to the tremendous arutunt of data end information wnich -u- the Association .y.4S been sutn ly mg to me.r.. As a :::.s. the FUA is today less panicky about asbestos ana ::.s:e: less likely to propose foolish, unsuptortobie raguiacac: Spokesmen from the FCA have, m face, defended cne filter against environmentslast attacks in the press and elsewh recent months. This is, quite obviously, a healthy sign. slizz a------- iNtrsrsr croups Since our contacts with the National Institutes t *. Health have been quite manirtal, and since the health and safety section cf the Bureau of Manes as presently bean? reorganised, we can now proceed to take a brief look at are various interest groups that have been an the forefront of the assault on asbestos, These are the groups and organara that constitute *the other side." As you can see, there are a lot of then, and betwee. thca they con exert powerful pressure on legislators and administrators at all levels of governtunt. i 42 Since tine is r.o; available to discuss each cf ;"e:; activities and philosophies in detail, : would like to say that ve keep a close watch on all cf them and are always prepared to taka whatever action is appropriate when they step out of line. ' s;::: projector err --- i:c:-:r cm Cur activities in tne area oc Congressional relations % nave teen quits minimal to date, although we are preparing for the upcoming struggle m Congress over workmen's compensation reform legislation, at which tima asdesoo* is unquestionably going to re racked over the coals dy Or. Selikoff and his compatriots in organized lador. Unfortunately, the Association has neither the manpower nor the time to embark on a full-scale legislative information program. We have met on occasion with the legislative and legal assistants to various Senators who have attacked asbestos. howevor much more need* to be done m this are* and : 4.T. afCl id individual .terrier companies are going to have to oe thi prime ball carriers and r.ot cha Association. Tor essentially the same reason, our government i activities at tne state and local level have declined to essentially zero over tne past year and a half. This has not been too serious a deficiency as most of the authority of the cities and states in asbestos control has been usurped by the various federal regulatory agencies. Nonetheless, rtcre individual company activity is required at these levels of government. In conclusion, I think we can ail be justifiably pleased with what we have been able to accomplish in the past few years in resolving the cornucopia of interrelated problems that constitute the asbestos-health situation. - Car plants are ciaanor And our workmen :::: p:::4s*.4i, general public has been shown to be m no darker frca asbestos, id it ever was. While we hove been regulated extensively, f:r the nest part the standards that have been developed have not been as dad as we feared they night be, and an sera eases they turned cut far better than wo ovor dared hope. In addition, while we are still taking our lump* in the public press, the nee addace od all this adverse - publicity has been shown to be surprisingly small. Va have sweated a lot and we have groaned a lot, bat we are still standing and we are still viable. I sense today within the industry a greater feeling od oor.didanee m the future than at any tmu m the past few years. But we must net rest contented. . 45 w*e cusc rc.tsriar -'ic Zc, Scli^ofi .".as to cuts beer, far lass successful tnan our industry has in influencing t.".e decisions of c.-.c various severmental regulatory agencies, mis will taka nis try harder* Just Use week saw a spaeen v of nis m wnic.". .".e purposely rr.isintertjreted sc.te data by a distinguished 2n tish scientist in order to prove that even two filers is r.o: a sufficiently safe level for occupational exposure to ascestos. The struggle is far frea over. We auss not only continue out indeed expand cur activities m t.".a various areas of concern if we are to assure the future weil-caing of the asbestos industry in the Unatd States. han*; you very much -\ nq > ? c *,^>r* *--iC^3o/i "5of>"l T0>) *T5 ^5 IS - <oo *> 25tfi to o c40 --a, c _ Oi/i) to c*otO '"4o*5"0 o UU>- Cu. CO or wID OC_T --> C3- io t0l>V o - Oc - *o r O X) Os. Sw 03 - I| g S5S 3 41 - ^ g ag c-S CO u. 0) CS S " s 2 o O_ --oc3> oO*V. 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Swetonic said, and we agree, that a panel separate from TIMA would lend more credibility than an industry group trying to repudiate Enterline's findings or offer commentary on any future research findings. Prior to the formation of the board, its role and mission or objective would be determined. Its mission statement would include a concern for general health and safety and stress the group's interest in maintaining a totally independent body for review of all research methodology. We suggest a board of perhaps five'members from a variety of specialties. A three-year contract' would help to ensure the independence of the group. The advisory board budget could be created to allow for the hiring of additional experts if needed. A TIMA representative such as Dr. Anderson could serve in a non-voting, advisory capacity. We suggest that TIMA might consider establishing a special grant to fund this panel and its work with the administration of the program being handled through a respected third-party/independent agency (such as the Cancer Research Institute). This group could review, on a regular* basis or sporadically, any significant research dealing with the issue of mademade thermal fibers or related issues. This independent team could have a great deal of credibility by virtue of its third party administration. The agenda for this advisory beard could establish a 30-day period in which TIMA could react to and express concerns to the board on its review of each project. After that 30-day period, the advisory board would jbe free to release its results. ' Hill and Knowlton can call upon its research capabilities to reveal many well-known and highly respected individuals in the scientific community who would be potential board candidates. This list would draw upon those with specialities in safety and health, environment, occupational disease, cancer, toxicology, medical, epidemiology, etc. It is estimated that putting together a.carefully selected group could take a month or two. Not only would this involve preparing the list of potential candidates and making contact but there also would be the preparation and distribution of background material. An alternative approach to the advisory board could be a larger board of specialist/consultants with expertise in a variety of specialties who could be called upon for specific tasks, such as reading specific pieces of research and offering commentary. Individual honoraria would be involved for each task.