Document jBGY8wK41a2Q9yj8kDYpm1ZaN

FILE NAME: Kaiser Gypsum (KG) DATE: 1998 Nov 4 DOC#: KG050 DOCUMENT DESCRIPTION: Legal - Deposition of Joseph Ross Hobby Pickner vs. Owens-Coming Joseph Ross Hobby Page 1 to Page 119 11/4/98 Condensed Transcript and Concordance ft. Prepared by: Tooker & Antz Court Reporting and Video Services 818 Mission Street, 5th Floor San Francisco, CA 94103 Phone: (415) 392-0650 FAX: (415) 512-9543 Page 1 :n tmi tvttbiT* eevet or rm n*t* op AiHtMTTw pew rimi eevMTV ,,( TYtVtN N. PteRHH evivvn t. PIMNI*. }' ' <> MA It (10) m> ii:i uji .1 0 ui IPI (Iff) )r 9TAPIP MWim wt NfiMil OP JOMItt , ! to il HOtrffV Pickner vs. Owens-Coming Joseph Ross Hobby aiilaiaua Itraat. ISUi ni, Ian Pianata. Calilamaa TUOI. !.. MAAV p. NfflffON. Xartttaa thartrv.r* (> C a lila r m a ( a la a l C u i Paaaaffuaa. paaaanallr appaaia t| J0MPH tOffff HCffffV HO) Caff aa luaai bp tha plaantiltai anff tu iff aitniai. 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And the time (5) is 9:39 a.m. I'm Steve Leftwich, a certified notary public (s> for the County of San Mateo representing Tooker & Antz, 818 m Mission Street, 5th Floor, San Francisco, California 94103. (0) Telephone area code 415-392-0650. 19) This is the beginning of Videotape 1, Volume I no) in the case of Sylvin W. Pickner and Evelyn I. Pickner a n versus Owens Corning, et al., in the Superior Court of ( i 2) Washington for King County, Case No. 98-2-09390-1 SEA for (13> the deposition of Joseph Hobby. ( in The deposition is located at the offices of us Jackson & Wallace, 580 California Street, San Francisco, (is> California, noticed by attorneys for plaintiff and the in> videotape is produced by plaintiff. (lei Counsel, would you please Identify yourselves a) and your clients? (20) MR. BERGMAN: Matthew Bergman for the (2D plaintiff. (22) MS. JACKSON: Gabriel Jackson for Kaiser (23) Gypsum. (24) MS. STEELE: Katherine Steele for E.J. (25) Bartells.*12 / ------------------------------------------------------------------ f Page5 ,,, bt'"l4 R|iff4'that. #* Naffnaday, tha 4th ( , ] ffy I N*ur t t t f f , U Mhim hff at ha haul I i l * ` la at . . . .. tha(. at th * VAN PPKIff TP JACRKW t NAIU C I. )|0 Tooker 81 Ante Page 8 (1) MR. CLARK: Paul Clark for W .R. Grace. (2) MR. PETTY: This is Ken Petty on the o i telephone, Washington counsel for (41S) 392-0650 11/4/98 xmax(i/i j Kaiser Gypsum in the n Pickner case. (5) THE VIDEOGRAPHER: The reporter may swear in isi the deponent, o (8) JOSEPH R. HOBBY (9) having been duly sworn, (10) testified as follows: ( in EXAMINATION BY MR. BERGMAN ( in MR. BERGMAN: O. Could you please state your (i3> full name for the record, sir? (14) A. Joseph Ross Hobby. (15) Q. And where do you live? (isi A. I live in Danville, California. in ) Q. And what is your current position? (is) A. Vice President Human Resources fo r Kaiser H9i Materials C o rp o ra tio n . (20) Q. And how long have you held that position, sir? (2D A. A pp ro xim a te ly five years. (22) Q. Sir, I'm handing you what has been marked as (23) Plaintiffs Exhibit 1 which is the Notice of Deposition in (24) this case and ask you to look at it, please, and I have a (25) few questions to ask you regarding this notice. Page 9 (i) This is a 30(b)(6) deposition on various (2) topics relating to this case. And I want to go through o i those topics with you briefly this morning. The first (4) topic, and that's toward the bottom of Page 1, is Kaiser (5) Gypsum's corporate history, organization, and governance (6) between 1957 and 1977. Are you the witness that Kaiser m Gypsum has designated to speak for the company on that o i topic? (9) A. Yes. (10) Q. And second topic, sir, is Kaiser Gypsum's u u relationship with Kaiser Cement. Are you the witness that 1121 has been designated to speak for Kaiser Gypsum on that (13) topic? (14) A. Yes. (15) Q. The third topic, sir, is asbestos-containing (i6) joint compounds manufactured by Kaiser Gypsum and intended in> application of those products. Are you the witness who is (i8) going to speak for Kaiser Gypsum on that subject matter? (19) A. Yes. (20) Q. The fourth topic is Kaiser Gypsum's knowledge 1211 of the dangers associated with asbestos. Are you the ',22; individual who Kaiser Gypsum has designated to speak for the 1221 company on that subject matter? (24) A. Yes. (25) Q. The fifth topic is sales of Kaiser Gypsum Page 10 in joint compounds in thW Portland and Vancouver area. Are you (2 ; the witness on that subject matter? (3i A. Yes. Page 1 to Page 10 BSA Pickner vs. Owens-Coming Joseph Ross Hobby Q. Finally, our next is the sixth item, is K a is e r:*12356*13; Gypsum's answers to the interrogatories that plaintiffs :s> propounded in this case. Are you the witness on that ;'; subject matter, sir? :s: A. Yes. Q. The seventh topic is the involvement of Kaiser no; Gypsum Company with the Gypsum Association. Are you the ;: : i witness that Kaiser Gypsum has designated on that subject (--) matter? A. Yes. Q. The eighth topic is Kaiser Gypsum's business as; dealings with Owens Corning Fiberglas Corporation. Are you :is) the witness who Kaiser Gypsum has designated to speak for i n ; the company on that subject matter? --) A. Yes. Q. The ninth topic is Kaiser Gypsum's document 1201 retention policies. Are you the designated witness on that 12 d matter? c i) A. Yes. :::) Q. And finally the tenth topic is certain c m ; documents that are listed in the Notice of Deposition, (25) Exhibit 1. Are you the witness who is designated on those Page 11 i a party to this :;; litigation andyourinquiryis (inappropriate in that regard, isi Kaiser i Gypsum is the party. Kaiser Cement is not. j (?) MR. BERGMAN: Q. You can answer ;the question, :d sir? I (8) A. Would you repeat the question? j<5) Q. Yes, I would. Can describe the corporate ao; relationship between Kaiser Gypsum and Kaiser Cement between a n the years of 1965 and 1975? ( id A. Yes. :i3) Q. Would you do that for me, please? ( id A. Kaiser Gypsum Com pany, Inc. is a wholly-ow ned as) subsidiary o f Kaiser Cement Corporation. (is) Q. And how was it that Kaiser Gypsum came to be ( in incorporated in the State of Washington? (is) A. I don't know. as) Q. Do you know when Kaiser Gypsum was associated - ;:s) incorporated in the State of Washington? i: i) A. Yes. (22) Q. And when was that, sir? (23) A. 1952. (24) Q. Was, between theyears of 1965 and 1975 what (25) was the division of products manufactured by Kaiser Gypsum a ; subject matters? A. Yes. 'i ; Q. Thank you, sir. MS. JACKSON: Counsel, I'm going to interrupt :s; you just for a moment. To the extent that we have (e; objections to the various topics I'm going to wait until you P) hit the topics before making objections, all right? ;s; MR. BERGMAN: l understand, Counsel. (D Q. I'm handing you now Exhibit 2 which I will no; represent to you is Kaiser Gypsum's Responses to Plaintiffs :m Interrogatories and Requests for Admissions in this case, n o and I'd ask you first of all to turn to the tabbed page (id which is the signature page. And that is Page 15. Is that : ii) your signature, sir? i d A. Yes. i i ; Q. And didyou review these interrogatories on (id behalf of Kaiser Gypsum prior to their submission to as) plaintiffs? i d A. Yes. i i ; Q. I'd like toask you then some general c n questions, first of all on the corporate structure and c :; organization of Kaiser Gypsum. The first question, and I i d would direct your attention to basically Interrogatories h i 1,2, and 3, and 14. Could you start, sir, by describing ' 2?> the relationship b e tw e e n K aiser G yp su m and Kaiser Cement Page 12 i; between the years of 1965 and 1975? ::: MS. JACKSON: I'm going to object to this :i: question in that Kaiser Cement is not Page 13 i d and Kaiser Cement? I'd be happy to clarify that question if (2) you need me to do so. (3) MS. JACKSON: Objection insofar as you refer mi to Kaiser Cement products. The plaintiff has nottestified isi to any products manufactured by Kaiser Cement Kaiser (6) Gypsum products, of course, you may inquire about. (i) MR. BERGMAN: Q. W hatw erethe products that (8) were manufactured by Kaiser Cement as opposed to Kaiser <si Gypsum? no) MS. JACKSON: During what years, Counsel? ( in MR. BERGMAN: Q. 1965 to 1975. (12) MS. JACKSON: Ifyou know. (13) THE WITNESS: Well, to the extent I know (14) Kaiser Cement was in the cement manufacturing business at (15) thattim e primarily. :i5) MR. BERGMAN: Q. And what business primarily a n was Kaiser Gypsum involved in the 1965 to 1975 time frame? | (in A. Primarily w allboard and j ac ce ss o rie s. [ Q. Where were Kaiser Gypsum's jcorporate 1201 headquarters located in the 11965 to 1975 time frame? ( in A. Based on the inform ation I've been provided 1221 they w ere located in (th e K a is e r C e n te r in O a k la n d , (-- > j C alifornia. 1:24) Q. And where was Kaiser Cement's !corporate 25; offices located in the years of 1965 to 1975? Page 14 Page 10 to Page 15 (415) 392-0650 11/4/98 XMAX(2/2) (i: MS. JACKSON: Same objection. (2) THE WITNESS: To the best of my :knowledge they (3) were located in the !Kaiser Center in Oakland, California. | (4) MR. BERGMAN: Q. Did Kaiser Cement and Kaiser isi Gypsum Company j have separate accounting departments? (5) A. To the best o f my knowledge, yes. (i) Q. And did Kaiser Gypsum and : Kaiser Cement have (8) separate management? o) MS. JACKSON: Can I just object, Counsel, uoi Perhaps if you ask a little corporate history as a preamble (in there might be some confusion over the names. At one point (12) the Kaiser Cement name included Gypsum in its title. It <iaj would be a little more clear for the witness to have that (14) history first. (15) MR. BERGMAN: Q. Could you provide us with -- c s i was there a time, sir, when Kaiser Gypsum and Kaiser Cement (in had the same name in their title? (is) A. There w as a tim e when the corporate entity was U9i called Kaiser Cement & Gypsum Corporation. (20) Q. And was Kaiser Cement & G yp su m -w a s Kaiser (2i) Cement & Gypsum Corporation located at the Kaiser Center (221 during the 1965 to 1975 time period? (23) A. To the best o f my knowledge, yes. (24) Q. And was Kaiser Cement & Gypsum Company a (2s> separate entity from Kaiser Gypsum Company during that same Page 15 (1) time frame, sir? (2) A. Yes. (3) Q. Was there - did Kaiser Gypsum Corporation (4) receive its instructions from Kaiser Cement & Gypsum (5i Corporation in the 1965 to 1975 time frame? (5) MS. JACKSON: Objection, the word (7) "instructions" is vague. ( 8 ) THE WITNESS: I don't know. (5) MR. BERGMAN: Q. What was the level of dOi day-to-day interaction between Kaiser Gypsum Company and u d Kaiser Cement & Gypsum Company in the 1965 to 1975 time 112) frame? (13) MS. JACKSON: Ifyou could, Counsel, clarify ;i4) the years that the company was called a company entitled ( in "Kaiser Cement & Gypsum Company," was in existence, it would ;i-:: clarify for the witness. (17; MR. BERGMAN: Q. Sir, during w hat years was c e i there an entity known as Kaiser G ypsum & C em ent Com pany? (13) A. From roughly 1964 to approximately 1978. (20i Q. Between 1964 and 1978, sir, what was the level (2D of day-to-day Interaction between Kaiser Gypsum Company and (22) Kaiser Cement & Tooker & Antz Pickner vs. Owens-Coming Joseph Ross Hobby 11/4/98 ____________ XMAX(3/3) Gypsum Company? :: : A. I don't know. -;) Q. Did Kaiser Cem ent & Gypsum .Company and Kaiser c f i Gypsum Company have the same in-house counsel? I'm not 1 > Page 16 !'! asking you for any comments or communications with that (2) counsel but did they employ the same in-house counsel? 3) MS. JACKSON: I'm just going to place 3n :i ) objection on the record that I'd like to apply to any is) question that involves Kaiser Cement is not a party to this s> action. Plaintiff has not testified in his deposition he :3! was exposed to or claiming exposure to products manufactured m by Kaiser Cement, and I'd like a running objection to any (9) questions on that. (ioi MR. BERGMAN: I will give you a 2"! A. Those aren't m y w ords. I think he w as Vice c u president and general manager. c :; Q. W hat were Mr. Costa's :responsibilities as Vice c m President and General Manager of Kaiser Gypsum Company? (24) A. I can only deduce from the organizational c m chart that his business w as to run, his role w as to run that Page 18 |(i) company on a day-to-day basis. (2) Q. And sitting here today you don't :know whether (3) or not Mr. Costa reported |to anybody else? :'4) A. No, I've not seen an organizational chart that im said that he, !nor have I read anything th at said that Mr. j (I Costa reported to som eone else. overbroad. ''. in MR. BERGMAN: Q. Based on this document, sir, c m what conclusions can !you make? | (16) A. W ell, I can conclude that Mr. jCosta was fhe CM Vice President and General Manager o f the Kaiser Gypsum ns) Company, for exam ple. (19! Q. Looking down the chart, sir, there's the Group (201 Manager, Wallboard Accessories and Metal Products. What (2d were, what category of products were Wallboard Accessories? (22) MS. JACKSON: I'm going to object, Counsel. (23) W e've reached a stipulation with local counsel for Kaiser c o Gypsum that the products inquired into would be limited to (25) the joint compound products that your client has testified Page 20 running m i objection on that subject matter, Counsel. a=! THE W ITNESS: I don't know. "-3) MR. BERGMAN: Q. Sir, I'm handing you what (in has been marked as Exhibit 3. J'D Q. W as Kaiser Gypsum in the 19 - !Kaiser Gypsum (9) Company, a public or jprivate corporation in the year 1970 (si when |this chart was generated? I (10) I A. It w as a wholly-ow ned subsidiary of Kaiser (in Cement (i) that he was exposed to. So insofar as your question exceeds o that narrow scope pursuant to stipulation I would object. (3) MR. BERGMAN: Q. I'm not asking for any (4) detailed information. I'm just concerned about - - 1would (M like to know, :im MS. JACKSON: Can you indicate Corporation or Kaiser C em ent & Gypsum and this falls within the ambient of my igi what the a?) plaintiff number on the bottom? | Corporation, <121 depending on the tim e request of organization and governance, :iu MR. BERGMAN: Yeah, I'm sorry, the fram e. plaintiff (18) num beris238. I 13) Q. Do you know whether or not Mr. what were the r i general category of wallboard accessories. I'm not asking (?) :i9i Q. Sir, does Exhibit 3 appear to be an (20) organizational chart of Kaiser ;Costa reported U4) to Kaiser Cement & ;Gypsum Company in 1970? specific product questions at this time. (9) A. Well, as I understood It I think Cem ent & Gypsum Corporation, c u the (i9) A. I don't know. they're (ioi referred to in our Gypsum Division? (i6) Q. I'm going to go down the list of interrogatories. They generally consist ;22) A. T h a t's w h a t the title o f the some of the (in individuals on this (in of the various joint compounds. front page says. (23) Q. And is this one of the document !organizational chart and for the record (iai I'm referring to Page 240. W hat were the H 2) Q. And who did, who was, first of all, J.W. (im Blewett? that you (2a reviewed in preparation for this !roles of the (im executive assistant, the two (i4) A. W ell, according to the chart deposition? , executive assistants listed on co> this chart, he w as group t i M M an ag er for the c m A. Yes. i Mr. Eshelman and Mr. Orzech? W allboard Accessories and Metal Page 17 i) Q. Okay. I would like to turn, direct | (211 A. I don't know. I've not seen a job (22) description, nor do w e have any jo b descriptions fo r those (23) positions. Products (is) operations. (I?) Q. Do you know whether Mr. Blewett is still (13) living? your (2) attention to page, the third page which is designated as o i Page No. 240. W ho was Mr. R.A. Costa? (24) Q. Do you have any knowledge whatsoever as to c m what Mr. Eshelman or what Mr. Orzech did in the (i?) MS. JACKSON: Counsel, I believe we provided <20; that to you in the answers to interrogatories that were the (2u subject :a A. Well, according to the chart he w as Vice <m President and General Manager of Kaiser Gypsum, i Page f9 |: i ) organization? of your motion. (22) MR. BERGMAN: I understand. (23) THE WITNESS: I'd have to see the is) Q. And who was president of Kaiser Gypsum during o> that 1970 time frame? a A. I don't know. 1 (2) A. No, I don't. Perhaps I should say | at this (3) point that the day-to -d ay >business operations o f Kaiser (4) document (24i that I provided. I have not committed - - 1know a number of :2M the employees on these charts are.deceased Q. HoW Would that information be obtained? ' c-M A. I don't have an y idea o ff the ' G ypsum C orp o ratio n ended in 1978 or about that time. There (9) are no current em ployees o f Kaiser Gypsum. So it's and I haven't*(i)49 Page 21 top of my head. .been isi over between 20 years since (i) memorized them. -D Q. W as there a president of Kaiser there w as any em ployees there, o I've 0 MR. BERGMAN: Q. Who did Mr. Gypsum i o Corporation? been with Kaiser com panies roughly 18 Blewett report o to within Kaiser Gypsums' ;i 3) A. I d on 't know. ;years. So I have (8i no direct knowledge (4) MS. JACKSON: W hat time frame? c m Q. W ho if anybody did Mr. Costa o f these people and w hat they did. I (9) (5i MR. BERGMAN: Q. 1970, the date reportto? And us) am I pronouncing his j can m erely go from the docum ents that that this isi chart was generated? name right first Of all? have been provided to uoi me. And as I in A. Well, according to the chart he c-M A. Yeah. I have not seen an !look at these documents as you have reported to (S) Mr. Costa. That's the w ay \ organization ch art m i w ith Mr. Costa's them in (in fro n to f you, le a n m ake 1 would read it. i nam e on it reporting to som eone else, jcertain conclusions but - (9) Q. Looking down the chart, sir, cei Q. So to the best of your knowledge ( i 2) Q. W hat conclusions can you make, there's V iceN in President of Sales. W hat Mr. Costa was (i9> the chief executive officer sir? was the function of the Sales :m of Kaiser Gypsum Corporation? I (13) MS. JACKSON: Objection, Department of Kaiser Gypsum in the 1965 Tooker & Antz (415) 392-0650 Page 15 to Page 21 Pickner vs. Owens-Coming Joseph Ross Hobby 11/4/98 XMAX(4/4) to 75 period? .12; Correction, in the 1964 to would assume, 221 though, that they going with si th at question. I'd answer it 78 period. w ere generally involved in researching igenerally that, you know, the 7 7 7 MS. JACKSON: Could you repeat the and :12; developing and/or improving :m anagem ent team , all of the managers question, 74; Counsel? . existing or new products. would shoulder som e 7 responsibility 1 7 MR. BERGMAN: Q. Yeah.'What 712! Q. In the 1964 to 1978 time period for the safety o f their product. was the function 7 7 of the Sales were there 73) ongoing changes in the : .7 Q. And by management team would Department of Kaiser Gypsum in the 1964 to products that were manufactured by 7 .;i that be fair to (io> say that the vice 1978 time period? Kaiser Gypsum? presidents who are listed on the, kind of :- =! A. W ell, I have no direct 1 1 : MS. JACKSON: I'm going to object 7 1 1 ) on the, toward the bottom of Page knowledge but I'll us-/ venture that they :it's vague : is: and overbroad. 240? w ere in charge o f selling the various ;ao> 'I'M THE W ITN ESS'I have no direct id A. I w ould say m ost of them. products manufactured at the, on the ! knowledge but I usi would assume that if There m ay be som e m people on there m anufacturing side o f ion the business. (they had a department for that purpose a a that, fo r exam ple, the Financial Analyst Q. And would that include joint that that department did something and or 7 4 ) the Vice President and Controller compounds? there were changes. m ay not have a very strong 7 7 link to 7 7 A. Yes, I would think so. ; : 20) MR. BERGMAN: Q. And I guess the safety efforts. But som eone like the UN) Q. And who did the Vice President !sir. In light of 1211 counsel's prior objection, vice 15) president fo r operations in the for Sales 75; report to within Kaiser .which is well taken, I'm trying 221 to manufacturing environm ent id may Gypsum Company? ascertain whether there was a constant .have a greater responsibility. Page 22 1evolution of 201 products within the Gypsum is i Q. And moving then to the Vice i Division or, and whether that was 24) part of | President for (isi Operations, who did that d A. Well, the chart would indicate to the ongoing operations of the company. i individual report to? me that he -) reported to Mr. Costa. I : i7 MS. JACKSON: To the extent that I 2 7 A. According to the chart he 2! Q. The next question is what was the you know. reported to Mr. (2 1 ; Costa, role of the (4) vice president for merchandising within Kaiser Gypsum in the I Page 24 j ::i> Q. And would the Vice President for Operations 23) have been the primary in 1964 to 1978 time period? j a i THE WITNESS: I don't have any direct individual other than Mr. Costa 241 >d A. I don't know. ! 2 ) knowledge but I would assume, to use responsible for insuring the safety of Kaiser Q. Why was there a separate your word, that there a : was an evolution or Gypsum's 251 products?*i2 merchandising and ;e) Sales Department? ;certainly new products were introduced (4) ! - i A. I don't know. ' and those new products may have replaced ! Page 26 ::c! Q. Does anybody at Kaiser Gypsum existing products, a i that sort of thing. | 7 ; a . I don't know. have any 11i ) knowledge regarding why That's common in industry, ; 2: Q. You had indicated individuals in there was a separate sales and 7 7 a : MR. BERGMAN: Q. And was one of the 3) management team who were merchandising department? :the functions O) of the Research & responsible for insuring the safety 4) of '-'D A. Kaiser Gypsum has no : Development Department to integrate new Kaiser Gypsum's products and you em plo ye es. i :3) scientific developments that occurred i identified the Vice .=. President of :in! Q. Is the answer to my question that between 1964 and 1978? IOperations. Would the manager of nobody 15> besides yourself has any :-) A. I don't know. [ :Research & si Development also have knowledge as to why there was a 7 7 | ai-: Q. W as one of the functions of the 'shared some responsibility for :d insuring separate Merchandising and Sales Research & m i Development Department the safety of Kaiser Gypsum's products? Department? !to deal with any safety concerns that 121 7 A. He m ay or he m ay not. I don't :4] MS. JACKSON: No one at the i might have arisen regarding products know. company. ' manufactured or sold by : ii) Kaiser 7) Q. How about the Vice President of aei THE WITNESS: You asked was ;Gypsum Company? merchandising? there anyone at asi Kaiser Gypsum who In ) A. I don't know, 70) A. I don't know. has knowledge and I indicated Kaiser (201 i :i5) Q. W as there a separate i d Q. And how about the vice Gypsum has no employees. department within Kaiser -M7 Gypsum that president of sales? : i) MR. BERGMAN: Q. Is there 'was responsible for insuring the safety of its 72) A. I don't know. anybody else 1221 besides yourself that ; .1 1 ; products? 73) Q. And how about the vice would be able to better answer the (2.21 7 -s; A. To the best o f m y knowledge |president for 7 4 ) manufacturing? question as to what the different function of there w as not. ! 75) a . I don't know. the ;24; Merchandising and Sales , 7 7 Q. Who at Kaiser Gypsum would I ' 1 7 Q. And how about the, the group Department was? have been 201 responsible for insuring the manager of 7 7 wallboard accessories? 22: A. If there is I don't know w ho that safety of the products that in were sold to 1 7 A. Mr. Blew ett? would be. the public? 1 7 Q. Yes. Page 23 2 1: MS. JACKSON: Over what time frame? 27 A. I don't know. .21) Q, So the only individuals thus far, a Q. Who did the vice president for merchandising (21 report to within Kaiser Gypsum? - 7 MR. BERGMAN: 1964 to 1978. ; .2 7 THE WITNESS: Ultimately I would have thought 7 -7 Mr. Costa would be. so if I 22) understand your testimony, sir, the two individuals that you 23: have identified as being responsible for insuring ' : A. A ccording to the ch a rt he w ould have reported <7 to Mr. Costa. Q. The next department is research and, -:, development. What was the function P age 25 : 1 MR. BERGMAN: Q. Was there anybody besides 2) Mr. Costa at Kaiser the safety 24) of Kaiser Gypsum's products are the vice president and ; 7 . 1general manager, Mr Costa, and the vice president of of the research and :") development department within Kaiser Gypsum in the Gypsum who was responsible for insuring 7 7 the safety of the products that were sold Page 27 1964 to :s: 1978 time period? by Kaiser Gypsum 4) to the public? 7) operations, at this point Mr. Schaper? c-i A. I have no direct knowledge. I ! 7 ) a . W ell, I don't know w here you're (2) MS. JACKSON: I'm going to object Page 2 1 fo Page 27 (415) 392-0650 Tooker & Antz Pickner vs. Owens-Corning Joseph Ross Hobby insofar as it misstates his testimony. I i S-C-H-A-P-E-R. think his testimony was that 4! the management team. ! Page 29 ,s ) MR. BERGMAN: Well, let - well, ) Counsel, I'm :sr,going to start objecting to ' your speaking.objections. rt> You're certainly entitled to object. ; Q. Now sir, if you would, please, turn to P a g e ::) 241. It appears to be a \ breakdown of the sales division or o i the ISales Department of Kaiser Gypsum. And Q. And if I've misstated your testimony in any (9) way, Mr. Hobby, please enlighten me as to how I've done :io> that. -i- }A. I think you've mischaracterized It. What I iid tried to say was that everyone in management has a no responsibility, okay, for the safety of the employees and/or a n the products. I also indicated to you I don't know if any nsi one person in the organization had absolute day-to-day uei responsibilities for that other than I would assume, and I n > know that's dangerous to do, but Mr. Costa as the head of iw the organization would have overall responsibility. Beyond n?> that I cannot say to you whether an individual within this (co) chart has greater or lesser |we've talked ;:> about, quite a bit about who ;reports up the chain of (5) command. I'm l going to try to address some questions to |you <3) about how information is |disseminated down the chain of m command. is) Would - well, first of all, if I could direct (9i your attention once again, though, I'm sorry, to Page 240. uoi And I'd like to direct your attention to the line toward the u u bottom of the page, the five vice presidents? <i-) A. I see it ( i 2) Q. Okay. W as information concerning the safety m i of Kaiser Gypsum products shared between the various vice us) presidents listed on Page 240? (is) MS. JACKSON: During what time frame? responsibility than another. I ::u have no direct knowledge. n o Q. Sir, I'm handing you a picture an exhibit n o marked as No. 5 . 1do have a color photograph if that would 101 be easier for you. Is that Mr. Costa? nsi a . I don't know. (1 7) MR. BERGMAN: Q. During 1964 to 1978. And uei let me just say for the record, Mr. Hobby, unless I say ii9i otherwise, during my examination this morning my time frame (201 will be 1964 to 1978. CD MS. JACKSON: And just for the record to be ico absolutely clear, Kaiser Page 28 i) MS. JACKSON: Counsel, I just would like an c : opportunity to see actually the color photo - o MR. BERGMAN: Absolutely. ;4> MS. JACKSON: -- and also advise you that this (s) was not provided to us prior to Gypsum's products became <231 asbestos-free in 1975. So to the extent you're inquiring ::4 i about information past the 1975 date I would object. (cs) THE W ITNESS: I lost track of the question. Page 30 the deposition. Thank you. :s> THE W ITNESS: I've never seen this picture m before, I've never met Mr. Costa, nor have I ever seen a tei photo of Mr. (i) MR. BERGMAN: Q. That's fine, Mr. Hobby, ici It's hard when a bunch of lawyers ask questions and go back 3) and forth, I know. Costa where he has been identified to me. S o l (9) would have no way of identifyinq Mr. Costa. * no) MR. BERGMAN: Q. Is Mr. Costa still living? :m A. To the best of my knowledge he is not. But (ici again I would refer you to the listing that I, was provided in> to you and remind you that I haven't committed all the iio deceased persons to memory. '-) Q. I understand, sir. >> A. But I understand Mr. Costa is not living. Q. Do you know when Mr. Costa ceased to be vice U3) president and general manager of Kaiser Gypsum Company? !'-9! A. No. (4) A. That's okay. :3) Q. I'd like to direct your attention on Page 240 (6) to the five individuals listed in the vice president m category. And we've spoken a lot about them. And I believe (8i you said that all of those individuals would report to Mr. (?) Costa. And my question to you now is would these uo> individuals, these five vice presidents have been (in responsible for sharing information between themselves c o regarding the safety of Kaiser Gypsum's products? ( i n A. I have no direct knowledge of theanswerto ti4> that question. Whether or not they would have had a (in responsibility as you put it to share information. I have usi not seen that In any job title or anything. I would say as Q. W hat was, directing your attention once,again (n to Exhibit 240, the vice president of manufacturing, who did c : i that individual report to? A. According to the chart I would indicate that C4i he reported to a Mr. Schaper I guess you would pronounce it, (I 7> a normal course of business issues such as safety may be usi would be shared between various departments, yes. (19) Q. So as a normal course of business then the co) various vice presidents would have been expected to Tooker & Antz (415) 392-0650 11/4/98 XMAX(5/5) share information concerning the safety of Kaiser Gypsum's .2:: products? ; c:o A. W ell, w hen you say share, I !don't know w hether ornotthere was some responsibility or directive, for le ? ) exam ple for Mr. Hague to com m unicate to Mr. Crow le about | Page 31 j (i) som e safety item , w hether or not he iwould have a o responsibility to do that. I would indicate to you that I'm m I sure Inform ation w a s shared based on I probably the individual m determination !of that manager. j (5) Q. So, and I understand that, you know, w e're (si talking about the corporate structure and we may not have O' precise Idirectives concerning every interaction and every o i responsibility that each corporate officer has in relation (?) to every other corporate officer. However, had say the :io) manager of research development learned of information ; m regarding the, learned that Kaiser Gypsum's products may not ( O be safe when used as intended would that have been the type ' id of information that would have been shared to the vice (i4i president of sales responsible for selling those products to 1". the public? (15) MS. JACKSON: Calls for (speculation. | (*(i)417> THE W ITNESS: All I can say to that Iis that (13) I've never seen a d o cu m e n t that would indicate as you have csi just stated. (29) MR. BERGMAN: Q. Based on your knowledge of 12:1 the company overall would you have expected the vice (22: president of sales to have been informed of any defects of (23) the product that rendered it dangerous when used as 1241 intended? cs) A. T hat w ould be speculative on my part. I could Page 32 (i) speculate th at on that Mr. Bergman, but I have no direct 2) knowledge. (3) Q. And I would understand from your answer that (4) you're not aware of anybody ielse at Kaiser Gypsum that would (-) know whether the Research & Development .Department would have been !responsible for sharing safety information with O) the Sales Department? ! isj A. No, I've never seen a document or anything in isi w riting or anything that I've been, any of the inform ation coi |'ve reviewed that would cause me to be able to answ er that h d question positively yes. (12) Q. Now if we could go back to Page 241? (13) MS. JACKSON: Just for the record, Counsel, (i4i you have not designated 241 as a document you wish tb (it: examine our witness on. (is) MR. BERGMAN: Yes, I do, Counsel. My i n i intention in this designation was to Page 27 to Page 32 BSA Pickner \ s. Owens-Coming Joseph Ross Hobby 11/4/98 XMAX(6/6) refer to the first page :is i of these documents, not to list every page of the document :ie> that was indicated. But I will, in light of your objection 2:: I will keep that in mind in the course of my examination. 2 1 ; MS. JACKSON: My objection was that it was not :o2) on the list. Now you're telling me that you designated (22: incomplete listing of document numbers or you intended to (24) designate just the Page 1? Is that it? Because what I was 1251 just objecting to was document 0241 was not designated in Page 33 your notice. So my objection would be it's outside the Cl scope of the notice. :2i MR. BERGMAN: I understand, Counsel, and u> insofar as I refer to question 241 such reference is in (5) pursuit of my general inquiry concerning the corporate () history and governance of Kaiser Gypsum, notthe document (D per se. :d Q. And my question to you, Mr. Hobby, is what id were the general responsibilities of the vice president of u d sales of Kaiser Gypsum Company? : i i : MS. JACKSON: And just for the record so that (-21 you know, not having seen the complete designations in your :n> notice and not having a clarifying letter or phone call a n about the nature of your notice, we have not prepared and u d reviewed the documents that are not listed on your notice. ::s; MR. BERGMAN: I understand. (12) MS. JACKSON: So my objection is going to be css that we've not had an opportunity to review them and that he (id had be given incomplete numbers and I'm going to object (20; insofar as the documents are not complete. C l: MR. BERGMAN: Q. Okay.W hat is the general 122: responsibility of the Sales Department, Mr. Hobby? And I (201 will ask you to look at Page 241 only insofar as it helps (24! you formulate an answer. If it doesn't help you, just (2D ignore it. Page 34 :i> MS. JACKSON: Referring back, Counsel, to the c i date of this document which is on 0238 is 1970, November 1? c i That's the limitation on your question? :: MR. BERGMAN: Q. No, my question is in general what was the department, responsibility of the Sales Department of Kaiser Gypsum Company in the 1964 -- 1! MS. JACKSON: Ifyou know. -:> THE WITNESS: I think I already answered that (2) question but I have no direct knowledge. I have not seen a ::o: job description. But I did venture an assumption thatthe id function of the Sales Department was to sell the products r.z> that are manufactured by the company. c d MR. BERGMAN: Q. W as one of th e - w h a t c-4i department of Kaiser Gypsum is, was responsible for id communicating product information to customers? ; CD MS. JACKSON: Objection, vague. "Product c d information" is unclear. ; .13] THE WITNESS: I don't know who had [C D responsibility for that. ' c d MR. BERGMAN: Q. I'm nottalking ,about the c d individual, I'm talking about the organization. i (22) A. I could guess but I have no direct knowledge c d o f who would have had responsibility for that specific c c function. j (25) Q. What is your best j understanding? Well, let me * j ! Page 35 (1 : ask you this: Was there an entity at Kaiser Gypsum that 121 communicated ' information regarding the use and application j (d of Kaiser Gypsum products to the (customers? j A. Well, as far as I know the Sales i Department no id doubt communicated jw ith its customers. But there m ay have c: been other departments that 'com m unicated with customers as ;d `well. :si Q. W hat department, if any, at Kaiser IGypsum was (9) responsible for communicating safety information to c d customers? c d A. I have no direct knowledge. j C2 ) Q. W as there a department at Kaiser Gypsum that m had responsibility for communicating safety information to C4) the public, the users of your product? c d A. I don't know. I don't know, j c d Q. Is there anybody who knows jwhether there was c d any department at ! Kaiser Gypsum responsible for usi communicating product safety information to `the public? j es) a . I don't know. I (20) Q. I'd like you to look at Page 244 and that is 1211 of this exhibit. (22) MS. JACKSON: Same objection as to the (2D incompleteness and lack of 1designation. Objection to the c d inquiry j outside the scope of the notice, j c d MR. BERGMAN: Q. Kaiser :Gypsum as I* I Page 36 c : understand it, sir, manufactured joint compounds that o contained asbestos ' during certain years; is that correct, c : sir? 4 A. T hat's correct. cd Q. And what plants, what I manufacturing facilities c : were responsible or manufactured asbestos-containing joint i :d compounds? c ; MS. JACKSON: I'm going to object insofar as o the joint compounds in Iquestion would have emanated from one j .10) plant in the Pacific Northwest. The inquiry on other plants 1id is inappropriate. (121 MR. BERGMAN: Q. Go ahead and answer the co! question, sir. i d A. In the research I did I didn't ;research all i d the operations that m ay ,have or may not have produced joint -si com pounds. I focused my research in the Seattle plant. But i d I do know :that other plants did, but I would be hard pressed us) to categorically say w hat ail the plants manufactured. :i9) Q. Why did you focus your ;research on the Seattle 20 plant, sir? I ; : d A. Because based on the advice of counsel, Mr., 1:21 the Pickner case involved w as localized to that region. (23) Q. What years did the Seattle plant manufacture (24) asbestos-containing joint [compounds? ; (25) A. Roughly from 1969 to 1975. i Page 37 id ) Q. And is it your understanding, sir, that Mr. (2) Pickner was not exposed to joint compounds prior to 1969? (3) A. I have no knowledge o f Mr. Pickner's exposure. ; (4) Q. And again, without going into any |Contents of id any communications, you focused your, you did not focus any of ;your inquiry prior to 1969; is that correct? i :d A. I read a lot of documents and ;reviewed a lot isi o f documents that would give me som e general knowledge. ;But (?) I'm telling you that I focused on Ithe Seattle area and the (id Pickner case because I understood that's what we w ere being (i d deposed on. ! (12) Q. And was - you're aware, sir, and this kind of (id gets into one of the !other subject areas we're going to talk (i4! ;about today which is sales of ' asbestos-containing joint (id compounds i in the Portland and Vancouver area. Would those (i6) products have been, and is it your testimony, sir, that - tm well, where jwere joint compounds that were | manufactured, ue; that were sold in the ` Portland, greater Portland and <i9) Vancouverarea manufactured? (20) A. Well, would I say they were (generally (2u m anufactured at the Seattle plant. ; 22) Q. And that was located kind of Harbor Island 22) area? ' 24) A. I'm not fam iliar with the term I"Harbor 12D Island." : Page 38 :d Q. Located kindof south Seattle? (2! A. In Seattle, j (3) Q. Okay. | (4: A. I've not beento the plant ` personally. ; :d Q. Okay. And so if I understand your testimony, (6! sir, at least after 1969, joint compounds that Mr. Pickner, d Kaiser Gypsum joint compounds that Mr. Pickner | may have (si worked around would have Ibeen manufactured primarily in (5) Seattle; Iis that correct? Page 32 to Page 38 (415) 392-0650 Tooker & Antz Pickner vs. Owens-Coming Joseph Ross Hobby 11/4/38 XMAX(7/7) :o! A. To the best of my knowledge. That's my c u understanding, yes. :::i Q. And how about prior to 1969, sir? 'i3) MS. JACKSON: I'm going to object, Counsel, : : m it's not relevant. MR. BERGMAN: It manifestly is relevant, : Counsel. The client was the scope of the notice, i: - . THE WITNESS: I don't know, i c m MR. BERGMAN: Q. Do you know 'whether any a n asbestos-containing joint compounds were manufactured in the a :; Delanco plant? I c m MS. JACKSON: Same objection. m MR. BERGMAN: Watch if I screech while moving c the phone. I apologize in advance. c m THE W ITNESS: I guarantee you, I'm answering c m them all, Ken. ; c m MR. PETTY: Okay. I 'H i MS. JACKSON: Does that sound exposed from 1965 on. i n i Q, But you can go ahead and answer the question. ;: a; ' ^A- Perha ps if you tell me where he w a s exposed I (i9> could more directly answer the question, co) Q. Yeah. Mr. Pickner worked in Portland, greater c i ) Portland and Vancouver, greater Portland, Oregon and C2i Vancouver, Washington. CD A. Yes. c d Q. And from approximately 1964, '65 on. So what c m I'm trying to do is figure out if the Seattle plant didn't Page 39 | c m THE W ITNESS: I don't know. If you :know the csi answer to that perhaps you could give me a document or (i6> something that would remind me. But based on my knowledge a n as I sit here right now I don't ;know the answer to those C8i questions. | c m MR. BERGMAN: Q. Okay. And I'm ireferring to coi Exhibit No. 244 -- or Page ! 244. I c i: A. Yes. i C o Q. And that document indicates 'wallboard a?) accessories. And so based on that I'm c m A. What wallboard, where are you located at? c m Q. I'm looking at the bottom line of 1better, Ken? , c m MR. PETTY: It sounds better except Inowl got csi something in my throat, i csi MS. JACKSON: I was going to say ;you don't c m sound so hot. | csi MR. BERGMAN: Mr. Hobby was i approximately five a?) feet away from the !phone, Ken, so this may help things out a co) little bit. c m MR. PETTY: I've been hearing some and not c m hearing some but I guess I would just like the record to c m reflect, and I'm going to keep quiet as best I can, Matt. c m but the tenor of the questions that I hear, I think more or C5) less all of them | assume that this witness knows or has to :i ) start making asbestos-containing joint compounds until 1969 o where would this joint compound have been obtained prior to : ; that period? im MS. JACKSON: Well, it assumes facts notin (5) evidence that in fact there were exposures that I don't <> believe have been testified to prior to the 1969 time frame, m MR. BERGMAN: Q. You can answer the question, (8) Mr. Hobby. A. I'm getting a little confused. c m Q. Okay. - c i) A. But in 1969 is when we started manufacturing a:> joint compounds that contained asbestos. I don't know U3i whether or not we manufactured any joint compounds that c m didn't contain asbestos. And ) don't know specifically c m whether or not there may have been some asbestos joint c s i compound that could have found its way to Portland through c m some channel I'm not aware of. c s i Q . q'Pkay. And I want to make sure I understand <i9i your testimony. Are you testifying that Kaiser Gypsum did cot not commence manufacturing asbestos-containing joint c u compounds until 1969 or that it did not commence c m manufacturing asbestos-containing joint compounds in Seattle (23) until 1969? c m A. In Seattle. c m Q. Okay. Prior t o '69 did Kaiser Gypsum Page 40 ::) manufacture asbestos-containing joint compounds? c: A. I believe the answer to that is yes. A gain I o h a ven 't fo cused m y research very much on what other plants ^ m may have manufactured. ' (M Q. Do.you know whether asbestos-containing joint (=> compounds were manufactured at the Antioch plant? (71 MS. JACKSON: Objection, it's outside Tooker & Antz the j Page 43 Page 41 !(i) know the answers to questions. And I (:' organizational chart on Page 244. believe if you look at c i the law on Civil c i A. Yes. c i Q. Okay. And that is the basis on !Rule 30(b)(6), I think you need to find out I m i what he knows personally and then what which I (M inquired whether or not !is reasonably known ;m to him or what he asbestos-containing joint compounds (5) knows from reasonably available c i were manufactured say at the Jacksonville !information, and I don't think the law allows plant? c MS. JACKSON: Well, to the extent iyou or anybody cm to assume that the |company can always produce a witness that that you're m looking at a document that j (') can answer every one of your questions. you haven't designated in the <ei notice and So I would just '?) interpose an objection you're asking him to speculate on what it generally speaking to the tenor of (m your means, (9) the document speaks for itself. questions which I think assume facts not in c m MR. BERGMAN: Q. You can answer the question, a n Mr. Hobby, evidence. co) MR. BERGMAN: Well, the third sub c o A. Yeah. This would indicate that there were U3> some sort of wallboard accessories manufactured at those c m various locations. i is i Q. And you previously testified that your a?) understanding of wallboard - a n d I tin don't want to belabor Mr. Hobby who I'm sure has places he'd a :: rather be, with extended colloquy on the record. But the c m third item ofthis notice of deposition specifically c m requests asbestos-containing joint compounds accessories included joint c m compounds? manufactured by csi Kaiser Gypsum and c o A. It included, yes. intended application of said products, csi c m Q. When did Kaiser Gypsum start There was no date restriction on that, so I manufacturing <201 asbestos-containing joint I am concerned (i ' 1 that we have no compounds? jo .) A. I don't know the answer to that right off the 1221 top of my head. Perhaps ;you can help me. I don't remember. I 'i d Q. Well, I don't know the answer to ;information prior to 1 9 6 9 .1don't believe ' ('.a) that this is merely an academic concern given that the usi evidence in this case is that Mr. Pickner worked as a c m i painter upon being released from the Navy Ithat c m question, either, sir. ; csi MR. PETTY: This is Ken Petty. Are in '64. c i) MR. PETTY: I think the evidence in 'we j Page 42 this case 12:1 does not establish any exposure to Kaiser Gypsum products c m before 1969. You may think it does or wish i :i i anywhere near a break because I don't that it does but c m I don't believe that it |know what is happening 121 but I can't really does. I don't think Mr. Pickner was (25) able 'hear anything. I can hear your questions co to pinpoint any exposure in those years and j and some of Gaby, but I can't hear the certainlyI !witness at all. ] m MR. BERGMAN: I can try to move the 1phone a (5) little closer to the witness, Ken. j Page 44 ! in neither of his three brothers were able to MR. PETTY: Okay.________ _ (415) 392-0650 jdo so. I (2) MR. BERGMAN: I'm just very P a g e 38 to P age 44 bsa Pickner vs. Owens-Coming Joseph Ross Hobby concerned at this point that, you know, we've gone to considerable expense to u: come down here to take a deposition. We have put this '. deposition off on numerous occasions. The deposition si clearly seeks information regarding products manufactured " prior to 1969. And we have a witness who can't answer that d question. And through no fault of his own. I think he's, c-; you know, doing a yeoman service but apparently was not uoi prepared to do that. And I think that's clearly within the i d scope of both Rule 26 and my notice. So I'm going to do the best I can to continue with this examination but I'm going us; to note at this point for the record that I am quite m i concerned that through no fault of the witness our U i examination has been hampered. MR. PETTY: Well, let me just respond to that i n ) if you want to make statements for the record like that. I C8i think it should be clear that our discovery obligations are iii-> defined by the civil rules and framed by the facts of the case. And I mean I think you've been shown great latitude :21 ) here in allowing you to ask questions about Kaiser Cement, a izn company who's not named in this case whose products are not ;23> even the type of products at issue in this case, and if you : continue to persist to ask questions that are well beyond (csj the scope of discovery I think vye're going to have these Page 46 2! products were manufactured here. Where is it? No. 4 <2) I believe. 2; MR. BERGMAN: Mm-hmm. Well, why don't we do 4; the best we can. I mean if we could stipulate that Kaiser si Gypsum manufactured a product prior to 1969 I think that ; -2j could move things along. : (7! MS. JACKSON: I would be happy to stipulate to 8> that. ! MR. BERGMAN: Okay. All right. I think ;that (io i would satisfy things and get Mr. [Hobby on to places he'd ( in much rather !be. i n i ) Q. I'd like to direct your attention inow, sir, to :i3i Interrogatory No. 4 :i4i MS. JACKSON: With regard to your 1stipulation us) you're asking if Kaiser ;Gypsum manufactured joint compound usi ;containing asbestos prior to 1969 as an ! overall background (H i question? j ;i3) MR. BERGMAN: That's correct, Counsel. ! (i2) MS. JACKSON: Not concerning the .Seattle (2:: plant. : H i) MR. BERGMAN: That's correct, i ;22) MS. JACKSON: All right. And that's what we (23) can advise you. : (24) ; ,25) | of the MR. BERGMAN: Okay, that's fine. Q. Sir, if you could look on Page 4 ! Page 47 Page 45 :: kind of problems. Now there may be some legitimate concerns that (3i we both have and we should try to move ahead, iron them out (41 and get what you can get done, accomplished today. I mean that's all I think we need to be doing. But you need to be is; guided by the facts of this case and the allowable scope of discovery and also what the obligations are for the witness is: to know in response to your notice which I think we've O) already determined you only listed about 25 pages of uoi documents and you want him to be able to talk about a bunch of other documents that you didn't specifically list. (2-1 MR. BERGMAN: Aren't you sorry you didn't go m-, to law school, Mr. Hobby? THE WITNESS: Yes. No. ' 2 , MR. PETTY: We are. : MS. JACKSON I'd just like to advise counsel n-. that to move the process along in the spirit of cooperation :is: if you would refer to our answers to interrogatories you : 3, might be enlightened as to the years prior to 19, I think (2d 69, or if in fact the question was asked and we answered it -2 not to your satisfaction we have not been notified that that (22; was insufficient response. .22! MR. BERGMAN: Is there a specific (-2 interrogatory, Counsel? ' 2') MS. JACKSON: I think you asked us what Page 44 to Page 49 ! (i) interrogatories, I'm going to ask you some questions (2) regarding these (products. First of all, would it be fair to (3) ;say that the six products listed on Page 4 of (Kaiser (4) Gypsum's response to plaintiffs j interrogatories are joint (5) compounds? si A. They are not all joint (compounds. I (7) Q. Okay. Which ones would not be Joint is; compounds? (3) A. Well, No. 2 is identified as a finishing ;1 0 compound. I H D Q. What is the difference between a (joint (12. compound and finishing compound? ( in A. Well, again, I'm n otan expert and I w as (id trying to m erely respond to your question. But I think that (is; a . finishing compound is used during a different phase of the (is; construction process than a joint compound. ( -7; Q. Okay. And I just want to make sure that i ; i we're - I mean counsel and I made certain agreements prior .12; to this deposition and I want to make sure that I honor (22; them. ! (22, Would a finishing compound be .something that (221 was used in the process of taking two sheets of sheet rock (22: and ;making a smooth joint between the two, or would it have (20 some other application? i (25) a . No, that's, that would be the general i Page 48 ! (i) application. (415) 392-0650 ~ 11/4/98______ ____________________ XMAX(8J8) i (2 Q. Okay. Okay. Could you describe form e (3i briefly what then Joint Compound !Powder is and how it was (4: used? And I'm (referring to the first item on Interrogatory j si 4 - on Page 4 of your response to | interrogatories. | =) A. Well, the jo in t compound :referenced there ca m e (7) in a powdered form. j (3) Q. And what was it used for? j<s) A. Well, it w as typically mixed with w ater to .201 form a slush, if that's !the right term, and that w as then 1 1 ; applied to the various surfaces or joints. (12) Q. What about, and then after it was applied to (i3) surfaces and joints was any other work done to it or :14 ; modification done to it? (is) A. Well, I'm not sure I understand your question 101 b u t - l d o n 't (understand your question, j ( II*(i)478*12) Q. Okay. I'll try to move on and then (come back ;is r to this in more detail later. (25) A. Okay. (20) Q. And then what was the finishing powder that 2D Kaiser Gypsum manufactured? (22) A. That w as also a white powder jthat would have (23) been mixed with j water typically to form a paste that was I (24) used in the finishing aspect of the Iw allboard construction (25) that you described. Page 49 (i) Q. And would the Finishing Compound Powder then (2) come later in the taping process than the joint compound (3i powder? (4) A. I understand that it would. (si Q. Okay. is) A. Keep in mind that I'm not a w orks -- (7) craftsperson. (8) Q. Okay. One-Day Joint Compound Powder. How did ($> that differ from the first two products that you just ; 101 testified to? ( in MS. JACKSON: If you know. (12) THE WITNESS: I don't know exactly. 1 don't ;i3) know - do you mean in chemical makeup? (14) MR. BERGMAN: Q. No, sir, just .did, how was (i;) that a different product than the first two that you've :ie; testified to? (in A. I can surm ise that it was chem ically com posed m : so that it set up faster. Powder? r-vi i>u 1 111 c c (2o: A. I think it had purposes where it, that CD extended beyond just the joint application. Q. And what purposes would those be? | (23) A. I understand they, a lot of times there w ere (24) nails and staples and other com ponents that w ere used to lay usi out the w all th at this was used to cover in addition to the Tooker 81 Antz bsa Pickner vs. Owens-Coming Joseph Ross Hobby Page 50 then? Or let '-i joints. Q- I understand. And Dual-Purpose Pre-Mix c i Compound? I Page 52 ; '-) me rephrase it. W hat was the Gypsum ;i A. T h e prim ary difference here as I ;Association at the time :2i that Kaiser understand it (; has to do with the, with IGypsum was associated with it? the fa c t th a t it w as a prem ixed <si ;<3) A. I don't know how, I don't know compound as opposed to a powder. Ihow to answer 1 that. Be more specific, Q. And by premix compound, in other j (5) Q. W hatwas its purpose? words, it o ) would not have to be mixed up? A. It w ould generally com e in a bucket o r a cio> plastic container w here the w ater had already been added so 1161 A. I guess its purpose w as to serve j its members. j i n Q. Okay. And who were its ; members? :1;i you didn't have to physically do the mixing. (8) A. I can assum e that those m em bers w ere generally (?) m ade up of Q. And how about Pre-mix Topping Compound, was C3) that the premix those people that w ere in the gypsum industry. equivalent to Finishing Compound Powder to c 11 the best of your understand knowledge? i : ; i A. That's my understanding, (1 ) Q. And do you know any of the other members of m i the Gypsum Association besides Kaiser Gypsum? list Q. Okay. I'm going to ask you a little (12) more . i > questions about these products in (13) A. I have no personal knowledge. MS. JACKSON: Clearly it's outside question in general but I <is> want to be the scope (14) of the notice, we're talking completely fair here. Would it be fair to group about Kaiser Gypsum. Certainly us> not any ?i these all in joint compounds or I - other companies are at issue here. i-oi A. W ell, it would depend w hat the (isi MR. BERGMAN: Q. W ere other question was. manufacturers of im gypsum products c i) Q. Okay. involved in the Gypsum Association? A. But if you're just talking about the accessory (23) com pounds would I (19) MS. JACKSON: Objection, outside the scope of (i? 1 the notice. say w e can refer to them as joint i24> compounds. (20) THE WITNESS: I can assume so. I mean I know (in we weren't the only >2S Q. Okay. And so then if you could once again1 member. (22) MR. BERGMAN: Q. Okay. Do you Page 51 know how many (23) members there were? (24) A. No. (i: look with me on Page 4, No. 1 through 4 would be, would have (2) to be mixed with (25) Q. Do you know what the Gypsum Association did 11/4/98 ________________________ XMAX{9/9) Page 54 i) about and I'm inquiring into Kaiser Gypsum's involvement in c: the Gypsum Association and my previous questions were just 3) prefacatory in nature. 4) A. Okay. ; ; ) Q. W as the nature of Kaiser ;Gypsum's involvement ;si in the Gypsum Association? I understand that's a broad :7) question but hopefully w ecanhonein from there. i *8) A. W ell, as I understand it w e.w ere Ia member. I (9) Q. And did Kaiser Gypsum attend (meetings of the :ioi Gypsum Association? 1 (11) A. I have no direct knowledge of that but w e (121 probably attended as members do. ! (13) Q. Who at Kaiser Gypsum, and by Ithat I don't mean U4i the individual, but ;what entity, what officer of Kaiser (i.c.: Gypsum would have been responsible for ;maintaining or :ii attending meetings of the Gypsum Association? 1 C-7) A. I don't know that anyone would have had a (is) responsibility to attend. I (i9) Q. Who would have, who, which Kaiser Gypsum (201 officers would have attended meetings of the Gypsum ::i; Association? ( ( 22) A. From tim e to tim e any o f them :might have (2 1, attended. (24) Q. Okay. Did the Gypsum Association conduct, did csi Kaiser .Gypsum participate in any joint research ;efforts in*520 water, and Nos, 5 and 6 would come i3i premixed; is that correct? ;4! A. T hat's my understanding. `-'i Q. Okay, Would the application of the joint (S) compounds, and I'm nowtalking about merely just for the o > sake of expediting this, between sheets of dry wall, would (8) the application as opposed to the mixing of these six o> products be similar? 1io! A. As far as I know, yes. (in Q . I want to turn briefly to a subj ect matter ( i 2> regarding, that it's been identified in our deposition m i notice and that is the Gypsum Association. And then I'll n o turn back to these products in a few minutes. If you would ('->) please, look on your answers to our interrogatories, No. 10. A. W hat page would that be? Q. Thatwouldbe Page 6. Your interrogatory ;ia> indicates that you believe that Kaiser Gypsum was a member U9i of the Gypsum Association from approximately 1952 to :20) 1978. Is that correct to the best of your knowledge? A. Yes. ::2i Q. W hat was the Gypsum Association, sir? -- I A. W ell, I believe the Gypsum Association is 120 still in existence. (23) Q. W hat is the Gypsum Association Page 53 (1 ) during the period that Kaiser Gypsum was a member of that 121 entity? (3) A. W hat it did? > Q. Yes. (5) A. I don't understand that question. (si Q. You'd indicated its purpose was to serve its Pi members and my question is :what did it do in service of its (s> j membership? | (5i MS. JACKSON: If you know, j no) MR. PETTY: He's not being offered as a Gypsum (in Association | (12) MS. JACKSON: Right. : (U ) THE W ITNESS: I don't, you know, I haven't (14) seen the by-laws of the Gypsum iAssociation or anything. I i.si do know that ;they probably had meetings to discuss issues of do) industrial importance. 1 7) MR. BERGMAN: Okay and - (I) A. And I've never seen any of those minutes or a?) anything, j (20) Q. Okay. (211 A. I'm saying that, I'm speculating actually. I 12:1 shouldn't do that. (23) MS. JACKSON: Yeah. (24) MR. BERGMAN: Q. Okay. And just i responding (25) to counsel's objection which 1is well taken, I'm concerned Page 55 (1 ) conjunction with the Gypsum Association? 1(2) A. I don 't know. : (3) Q. Did Kaiser Gypsum receive publications from (4) the Gypsum !Association? (5) A. I don't know. I would assume that w e probably (si did as members, would receive publications that were sent m out to all members. I (8) Q. Did the Gypsum Association conductany (9; research into hazards ;associated with asbestos to the best noi of 'your knowledge? i (in A. I don 't know. ( 12) Q. Did Kaiser Gypsum participate in any research :ic ; with the Gypsum Association referring or relating to the :i4) (hazards associated with asbestos? (i5) A. I don't know. (15) Q. Did the Gypsum Association1well, insofar as ( i n Kaiser Gypsum was involved with the Gypsum Association, did (iB) it receive any information relating to thermal insulation (19) products as :opposed to gypsum products? (20) MS. JACKSON: Objection, outside the scope of 12:1 the notice. There's no indication that Kaiser Gypsum ever :::) Tooker & Antz (415) 392-0650 Page 50 to Page 55 8sa Pickner vs. Owens-Corning Joseph Ross Hobby 11/4/98 XMAX(10/10) manufactured or your client was exposed to technical bulletins? and then my letter of September 29th n, any products c t ! entitled generically A. Yes. clarified exactly what we were seeking, "thermal insulation" from Kaiser (24) , .20) MS. JACKSON: Can I interrupt you intended m ) application. And I'm trying to Gypsum. ju s t for a a i; minute, Counsel, because find out how Kaiser Gypsum 20) intended :25! MR. BERGMAN: Q. You can go :again the notice has designated 22; 0325 ' its asbestos-containing joint compounds to ahead and answer. ! as the document you wish to inquire on, and be (in mixed. Page 56 iwe have not 221 been provided nor did we j anticipate that the 326 and 327 (21) which 22) A. I'm not sure I can answ er - 1 don't know w hat :3 i you w an t from me. -j A. I have no direct knowledge w hat are not on the notice would be inquired on. So You know, I'm trying to answ er your .24; we may have o received from the to 25) that extent the witness has not seen question. Gypsum Association. My response to these two pages before. 25) Q. I know you are, sir. your 3) earlier question is I'm sure as m em bers w e received general 4) Page 58 Page 60 information. I have never seen a (i) MR. BERGMAN: Okay. | (i) A. W e have a pow der and w e have docum ent that cam e from :si the 2 ) Q. I'd like to ask you some questions, Iw ater and there's (2) directions on the Gypsum Association that comes to my sir, on, 3) and, maybe if you could refer in (bag. mind. conjunction with Exhibit 6 n ; to Exhibit 4, : 3) Q. Okay. Q. Okay. And are you aware, do you refer with the two documents in conjunction ; 4) a . Okay. N ow how they intend it know whether >3) or not the Gypsum 5) with one another. to be mixed, I isi d on 't know how to Association had any involvement with (ai j <C) MS. JACKSON: Do we have Exhibit 4? ' answer that. thermal insulation products as opposed to I n i THE WITNESS: Exhibit 4 did you say? ! (6) Q. Okay. Let me try to ask a few gypsum products? i si MR. BERGMAN: Q. I'm sorry, I :questions then n i to be a little more i A. I have no personal knowledge. misspoke, Page 3) 4 of your specific. no) Q. Do you know whether Kaiser interrogatories. i (5) A. Okay. Gypsum received a n information from the (io) A. And w hat w as your - 9) Q. Was it the intention of Kaiser Gypsum Association concerning any tests ( in Q. I just wanted to direct your i Gypsum, and ;10> again I'm referring to the ! i- i conducted on the safe levels of attention to the U2) products that were listed !first four products listed in (n> your asbestos exposure of gypsum i 3) products? on Page 4 of your interrogatories ( i 3) and then look at the Kaiser Gypsum. interrogatory answers, the dry compound, ;was it the (12 > intention that they be poured ti-ii A. I have no knowledge. I've never 14) A. Okay. out of a bag into a bucket of U3i water? s e e n a (i= ) docum ent from the Gypsum (is) Q. Sir, I'd like to direct your attention | (in A. I don't know. Association. to ' 16! Products 1 through 4 on Page 4 of in Q. Was it the intention that Kaiser id Q. Sir, I'm handing you what has your interrogatories. And u d if you could Gypsum dry :ie) joint compounds be mixed been marked as i n i Exhibit 6 . Mr. Hobby, describe in as great detail and as extensive with an electric mixer? you're looking at your watch. Did <is > you iie i detail as you can the process under id " ) A. I don't know. want to take a break? which (13) asbestos-containing joint | 19) Q. Was it the intention of Kaiser a?) A. I w as thinking m aybe a break, compounds manufactured by Kaiser 201 (Gypsum, were usi there any directions short break a j) would be - Gypsum were mixed. What was the intended j governing or instructing the users of '.20; ; : i: Q. I have about two or three more process for mixing <211 Kaiser Gypsum Kaiser Gypsum asbestos-containing joint minutes on this 22) subject matter. asbestos-containing joint compounds? compounds on howto (2i) mixupthe 23) a . Okay. (22) MS. JACKSON: Objection, vague. ;product? :a Q. And then we'll take a break, Are you (23) referring to at a job site or S22) MS. JACKSON: Objection, asked a ) A. That's certain ly- mixed in the manufacturing (24) process? and answered. Page 57 25: MR. BERGMAN: Yeah, thank you for I 23) THE WITNESS: I don't know. There that `were (24) directions on the bag to the best a i Q. Does that work within your time frames? Page 59 |of my knowledge. Now I 25) haven't ' committed those directions to memory. If we a i A. I just needed to step out fo r a few minutes. 3) Q. Okay. Would you rather do it now? ;1 ) clarification, Counsel. (2 ) Q. How were the users of Kaiser Gypsum joint (3) compounds supposed to had a i------------------------------------------------------------------ i Page 61 a A. No, let's go ahead and finish | mix up the products? ; a; bag - what w e're a: doing. |(4i A. I don't know, 2) MR. BERGMAN: Q. Do you know a MS. JACKSON: What again is the j 15) Q. Was there a manner in which 'that there were (3) directions on the back, exhibit a : number? j Kaiser Gypsum (si joint compounds were :sir? =; MR. BERGMAN: I'm sorry, Counsel, (supposed to be mixed? : ( ) A. I've been told there were. it's 325. 1 A. I assume that there w as some d Q. Okay. . Q. Do you know what this document, sort of si directions on the package on 6) A. And I w as also told that there is, sir'? how to mix and w hat quantities m with w ere warning cn labels on the bags. : : A. It says it's a Technical Bulletin. |w a te r to get, and that varies to get the ' d) Q. I understand, in Q. And were technical bulletins necessary uoi consistency that the j 19) MS. JACKSON: Are you close to the prepared by 121 Kaiser Gypsum for the craftsperson would be looking for. 'end of your a i) questioning? benefit of its customers? A. I understand they w ere. ; i i : Q. Okay. i ( i i ) MR. BERGMAN: Yeah I am, yeah, 121 A . B e y o n d th a t I'm n o t s u re w h a t I Mr. H obby. (12) Well, I'm n o tb u tM r Hobby Q. And were technical bulletins you're asking <i3) me. Ihas been very patient and this (id would be prepared by <is > Kaiser Gypsum for the :i4) Q. Well, our deposition and again i a fine time for a break. Counsel, I have benefits of the users of its products? I'm not, Mr. usi Hobby, you're doing a great | some (14) things to say on the record but '-5) A. That's my understanding. job, our deposition notice (is) sought IMr. Hobby doesn't need to be <is ) a : Q. Is Exhibit 6 the type of information information on how, the use and application that ;isi would have been contained in of Kaiser (in Gypsum joint compounds, belabored by that. ! (16' THE WITNESS: Well, I'd like to hear Page 55 to Page 61 (415) 392-0650 Tooker & Antz Pickner vs. Owens-Corning Joseph Ross Hobby them. MR. BERGMAN: Go ahead nd take your break. (: s' /You deserve it. . ::6> TH E W ITNESS: Okay. }:;;i THE VIDEO GR APHER: D o you want to go off the (2D record the video record at this time? ' 221 MR. BERGMAN: Let's go offthe record entirely (231 for a little bit. :<) THE VIDEO GRAPHER: Offthe record ^t (2D a.m. ) MR. PETTY:'nd how are you showing it in this u r deposition? - MR. BERGMAN: Okay. Let's break ' for a, let's nsi just break for a second. I'm using a video monitor showing :i3i it to the |witness. It's not being dubbed onto the tape .in (2?) any manner. ; :2i ) MR. PETTY: That's what I wanted to ;insure and (22) would like to make sure that i is the case. I (23) MR. BERGMAN: Yeah. That is the Page 62 a i (Brief recess). (2) (W H E R E U P O N , PLAINTIFF'S case and - c o that is the case. ! (isi THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Do you want to go offthe EXHIBITS 14 THRO UG H (3) 17 W E R E Page 64 11/4/98 XMAX(11/11 ) the intended manner in which Kaiser :?) iGypsum joint compound was mixed? | !11: A. I have no direct knowledge of that. As I (i3) indicated before the break, J'you know, I'm not a :i?) craftsperson. I noted th at the bags had direction on them. 20 I don't know if those were gyp - com pound bags or not. But :2n they had directions on them . This appeared to be using a 12:1 m ixer in one case, appeared to be hand mixing in another (23i case. It would seem logical that something along those 24) lines would happen. But I'm not sure I can answer your (2;i question in the affirm ative. MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION). THE VIDEO GRAPHER: Back on the record at (5i a.m. ' 5) MR. BERGMAN: Q. W hen we broke, Mr. Hobby, we n : were discussing Page 4 of your responses to interrogatories ib: and we were discussing the manner in which these four bagged (at or dry joint compounds were mixed up, and I believe that you ::o > had indicated that you didn't have absolute'knowfi on m i that, W e discussed withyWdr counsel in recognition that a ( i n long time has passed. So I don't want you to at all feel (i3) like I'm pressuring you for an ansv/f, Mr. Hobby. If you (14) don't know th answer to the question we'll just take it at (> that and if your lawyers and us have to take something on usi later on, that's fine. I just don't want you to think for a tii) minute -- you're obviously working very hard and you're in a (ia> difficult position and I do appreciate that, sir. us) W hat I'd like to do at this time, Mr. Hobby, (20) is show you a videotape that has been identified in this (2ii case as one of plaintiffs exhibits and the videotape shows (22) mixing up some Kaiser Gypsum joint powder and first I'd just (23i like you to look at and then I'll have some questions to ask (24) you about it. And that videotape is designated s Exhibit (2D 14. And I'll have a few questions afterwards to ask you (1 ) record? (2i MR. BERGMAN: No, let's stay on the record. ( I MS. JACKSON: Can you identify for us where id this tape came from if we don't have Exhibit 14, where the (6) tape came from, who made the tape? Do you have :some () informational issues for us? | (i) MR. BERGMAN: Sure. It was a tape that was o> made by Dr. Longo, my associate, the tape it's on, and (9i identified in the discovery in this case. It was my 11 0 associate has paired it down to about four or five minutes (in but of course all of them are available and have been 121 available for your review. (13) MS. JACKSON: Okay. So this is an edited :io version (isi MR. BERGMAN: That is correct. 'isi MS. JA CKSO N:- - of a tape made by Dr. Longo. i ii ) MR. BERGMAN: That is correct. (is) MS. JACKSON: Okay. (16) MR. PETTY: And I just would not necessarily (201 accept your representation that it's been produced in 1211 discovery in this case because I believe I have | propounded 1221 Kaiser Gypsum specific j written discovery to you for which 1231 you provided answers and even supplemental | answers but Ido (24) not recall this |videotape being described in any way, shape*I Page 66 : Q. Is there anything that you saw in that tape 21 that appeared to you to be an incorrect use of a Kaiser c i Gypsum joint compound? (4) A. Again I have no direct knowledge o f the use as (ci it was intended back a t those particular point In time. I : 5) think I could go out and take a sack o f most any powdered r> product that w as on the m arket today and duplicate t h a t ' s; scenario, and I guess you're referring prim arily to the (6) airborne (io) Q. No, actually, sir, I'm not. I'm not referring (in to the airborne matter in that. I'm referring more to the 1121 manner in which the workmen or the individuals depicted in (U i Exhibit 14 poured the joint compound into the bucket and (i4i mixed it up. (15) MS. JACKSON: Insofar as the witness has not (i-i: seen this tape before we have made our best efforts to (in comply with discovery requirements in the State of (isi Washington. I think this is outside the scope of the (i5) notice, I think this lacks foundation, and I wish you would (20) move along on some of these topics. (2D MR. BERGMAN: Q. Would you like to see the 1:21 tape again, sir. (23) MS. JACKSON: No, spare me. Page 63 id regarding that. c i A. Is there anything I'm supposed to focus on? ( ) Q. W hy don't you just watch it and it's about two (4) or three minutes long. (i ) A. Okay. Q. Watch it as best you can and if you want to m see it again or something that's fine as well. MR. PETTY: Matt, what videotape is this? You (6) said something about Exhibit 14. ( 12) MR. BERGMAN: It's one of the MLS tapes. . c-i! MR. PETTY: I don't know that I've seen it ; i 2) unless this is one that you showed in another deposition. :-3) MR. BEPGMAN: It's not, I haven't shown it in (14) a deposition. j (26) or form in those responses. j Page 65 :i) MS. JACKSON: I guess insofar as it's I an (2) exhibit to the deposition we would ask for the copy 3) reflecting the edit to b e ~ give it to us. 4) MR. BERGMAN: We'll give to you. That's fine (' ) MS. JACKSON: Yeah. Okay. (*) (Videotape being shown). (7) MR BERGMAN: Okay, let's stop now. (8) Q. First of all, Mr. Hobby, would you like to see (5) that tape again? (10) A. 1m ay at som e point. Right now a i l Q. Okay. (12) A. Until 1know I'll ask. (13) Q. Okay. My question to you, sir, is after (14) reviewing that tape designated as Exhibit 14 does that (isi appear to you to be (24) THE W ITNESS: No, no. (25) MR. BERGMAN: Q. Okay. I guess was there Page 67 (1 ) anything, I understand this is 20 years later but based on '2; your knowledge and based on your preparation for this n) deposition and based on our deposition notice was there (4 anything that you saw that the individuals on Exhibit 14 did :c: in mixing that joint compound that appeared to you to be an (t) inappropriate or improper application of Kaiser Gypsum o: products? (3) MS. JACKSON: Objection. Objection, calls for (6) speculation. This witness is not offered to testify about coi appropriate or inappropriate methods to hnix product and I'm ::i) not going to let him answer that question. (12) MR. BERGMAN: Q. Do you know Tooker & Antz (415) 392-0650 P a g e 61 to Page 67 BSA Pickner vs. Owens-Corning Joseph Ross Hobby the appropriate- ' 14' Counsel, are you instructing the witness not its, to answer? '-5 MS. JACKSON: I am indeed, i" . MR. BERGMAN: And the basis of that, if you :ie> would, is that is was not within the scope of the - I- ; MS. JACKSON: Outside the scope of the notice, 1201 lacks foundation, calls for speculation and we are not (2 1 ; offering him as a witness as to the appropriateness of the !--) methods that whoever It was in the tape used to mix 221 products. MR. PETTY: Matt, you should know I'm in a ::=) difficult position. I can't see your videotape over the Page 68 the steps and we've kind of c d gone through one step of the mixing and now I'm 'wondering ;i6) what the next step would be. '- 7> you. A. I'm trying to be responsive to I i '-si Q. I understand. i il&i A. You understand I'm not a craftsperson. I 1201 understand the :material was applied, okay, there may .have :::: been a tape applied at some j point in time. There m ay have i : : i been |som e sort of smoothing that occurred. | Depending on <22; w hat the final intent ;for the wallboard may have been, there | iso might have been some sort of a paint Iapplied or texture 221 applied. It would jvary from each and every job, would vary. phone and I'm a little surprised that you're using a tape 121 that you would not have produced to me before today. MR. BERGMAN: I thought you'd be here, Ken, u ; b u t- 1: ' MR. PETTY: So you intended to surprise me i> there today in person. ; i MR. BERGMAN: Q. Do you know, Mr. Hobby, (8> whether in mixing Kaiser Gypsum joint compounds it was isi intended that the material be poured from sacks into u d buckets? (in A. I don't know about your use of the w o r d :-:: "intended." I would suppose that material may have been : :) poured but that would have been an Individual decision by lie the craftsperson. Q. Are you aware of any instructions by Kaiser :121 Gypsum to its customers not to pour joint compound from a :i~) bag into a bucket? A. la m n o ta w a re . Q. Can you now, I'd now like to broaden my co: questioning directing your attention to Page 4 once again of ;:n responses to interrogatories, to all six of the products listed on that document, and ask if you can describe how (23) once mixed, Kaiser Gypsum joint compounds were applied to C4) walls of sheet rock? ' A. How they were applied? Page 69 j Page 70 l in Now I don't know if that's responsive !to you but I'm trying o to be. 112: Q. I think it's quite responsive, sir. jYou (4i testified there was a smoothing that would go on in this isi process? j(6i a . There m ay be. j O) Q. May be. Can you describe what |that smoothing isi would have been? | :9> A. Well, I think th at can vary from |a trow el aoi application, a trowel, to basically take the lumps or often :iu when you put a material like that on a surface, you know, it 112) lumps or it tends not to be evenly applied. You may Iuse a ( i2) trowel. You m ay use a sanding Idevice o f some sort. :i4i Q. What kind of a sanding device would have been us) used? is) THE WITNESS: Again that might ( li) MS. JACKSON: If you know. (is) THE WITNESS: That would vary by application. (isi MR. BERGMAN: Q. Was it anticipated by Kaiser coi Gypsum that dried joint compound would be sanded, j (2i) A. I don't know the answer about w hat Kaiser 1221 Gypsum 's anticipation was. | (22) Q. Would It have b le n proper to sand dry joint (24) compound? | :25i MS. JACKSON: Object to the use of the term .2: Q. Yes. :: A. I have no direct knowledge on how they w ere c: applied. That would be, vary by craftsperson. 4. Q. After Kaiser Gypsum joint compounds were applied to sheets of dry wall what was the next step in a) preparing or finishing the job for eventual painting? A. Well, again that m ig h t:s) MS. JACKSON: Assumes facts not in evidence. 1: On a general basis not all walls may have been painted, you :::> know. ' i i : MR. BERGMAN: Q. I'm just trying, maybe you 112: can just, you know I'm trying to work through the scenario c i ; of how Kaiser Gypsum joint compounds were used and I'm :i4) trying to, you know, go through I Page 71 (-) "proper." Vague. j 3) THE WITNESS: I would think in those (ii circumstances in which I described where it was necessary to ;) smooth the .application, there would be some method .possibly in using a trowel or possibly using 'sanding or something like H) that to smooth j it out. So it may be proper, it may not be :7; j proper. i (5; MR. BERGMAN: Q. Did Kaiser ;Gypsum know that 12; users of its joint compound may use sanding as a process to 1(10; smooth the dried material? j ( ii; MS. JACKSON: I'm going to object insofar as 1121 what Kaiser Gypsum knew. !There is no time frame involved. Page 67 to Page 73 (415) 392-0650 1 1 /4 /9 8 _______________ XMAX(12/12) 1 1 : MR. BERGMAN: Q. 1964 to 1978. i i) A. I don't know w hat Kaiser Gypsum knew regarding cr; requirements for sanding, i 16) Q. Okay. I'm going to show you a little bit more ( ii: of Exhibit 14. I understand .there will be some objections as; to those and I'll have a few more questions to ask you ( i 2) regarding that. You need to turn it on. c o i (Videotape being shown). ; 2 1 ) MR, BERGMAN: Why don't we see if we can turn C2) the sound off. l e i ) THE VIDEOGRAPHER: All the way I down? .24) MR. BERGMAN: Yeah. (25) Okay. That's fine. I Page 72 1 (i) Q. Mr. Hobby, does the sanding process that was o depicted in Exhibit 14 appear to you as a representative of i Kaiser Gypsum to be a proper use of Kaiser Gypsumjoint (4) compound? : (5) MS. JACKSON: Objection, calls for I (6) speculation, outside the ken of this witness. We're not rn calling him and offering him to testify about the is: j appropriateness or the proper methods of the use in any (s) particular application. I'm not going to permit him to (ioi answer. ( ii) MR. BERGMAN: Q. Does the sanding of joint 12) compound depicted on ;Exhibit 14, Mr. Hobby, appear to you to I (Hi be, and l quote from the notice of deposition, "The intended <i4> application of ;Kaiser Gypsum joint compound"? (is: MS. JACKSON: Same objection. :i=) THE WITNESS: Am I supposed to answer? I've m i gotten confused. (is) MS. JACKSON: No. i (is) MR. BERGMAN: You're instructing the witness 1201 notto answer, Counsel. ' (2i) MS. JACKSON: I'm sorry, I'm making my 1: 2; objection. I did not instruct him notto answer. (23) MR. BERGMAN: Okay, j (H) THE WITNESS: I got confused. Give ;m e y o u r(2S) question one more time.1 : Page 73 i( i) MR. BERGMAN: Q. I understand, .sir. Does the (2) sanding of Kaiser Gypsum joint compound depicted in Exhibit a: 14 appear to be the intended application of that product? : (4) MS. JACKSON: Lacks foundation. (=) THE WITNESS: Well, again I don't ;know when (6; this film was made, whether it was made in 1970 or not. I sort of 1doubt it or in that time frame that we're (talking o i about. So to the extent that this film represents how it was done back then, I'm not sure, you know. If sanding was 1 (1 1 ) necessary to do the job, certainly the method that these :::> people used would i be one way to accomplish that. ( 12) MR. BERGMAN: Q. Okay. One of the topics ( ii) that we've designated has Tooker & Antz Pickner vs. Owens-Corning Joseph Ross Hobby been sales of Kaiser Gypsum joint :i 4) compound irt Portland and greater Vancouver a re l: And can 'csT you, was there any single-entity that distributed your ::s; products in those geographical areas? A. Entity? I'm not - :-?> Q. CrffpaH. (151 A. Oh, I d o n 't know but I would assum e not. ! MS. JACKSON: I'm going to object that it'^ c i ) vague. ' >" ) MR. BERGMAN: Yeah. I'm just trying to go cet from the vague to the specific. (Co Q. And how were joint compounds manufactured By '(isi Kaiser Gypsum distributed in the greater Portland and i 2) id MS. JACKSON: If you know. THE WITNESS: Well, one of two ways that I ;i4i would imagine. One would be that the consumer could go to a ;i5: :supplier and buy that. Or there may, the contractor, usi assuming that's the (consumer, may buy directly from the c m company. I (13) MR. BERGMAN: Q. Would Kaiser Gypsum sell U9i directly to users of Kaiser Gypsum - would Kaiser Gypsum (201 joint compound be sold directly from Kaiser Gypsum to ::d customers in the Portland j and Vancouver area? . I (22) MS. JACKSON: Asked and answered. Page 74 ;i ) Vancouver areas? . (C) MS. JACKSON: Could you ask a foundational o i question as to whether or (23) THE WITNESS: I'm sorry, what did you say? (24) MS. JACKSON: I'm said it was asked and (25) answered. You answered it. not they were? | Page 76 o MR. BERGMAN: Q. Yeah. W ere Kaiser Gypsum isi joint compounds distributed In greater Portland and isi Vancouver area In the 1964 to 7 8 time frame? <m A. Vancouver, W ashington? <3) Q. Yes, sir. (5) MS. JACKSON: Insofar as you've asked for uo> information outside the years that the manufacturer of these <i d products would involve asbestos I would object to that, id MR. BERGMAN: That objection is well taken, n i l Counsel. Let me rephrase that. n o Q. W ere asbestos-containing - well, were Kaiser usi Gypsum joint compounds manufactured by --were Kaiser Gypsum usi joint compounds distributed in Portland and Vancouver i n i Metropolitan areas between 1964 and 1975? (isi A. Yes. (is) Q. Okay. And can you describe the manner in 1201 which the products were distributed? c l ) M S'JAC KSO N: Objection, vague. (22) THE W ITNESS: I don't know what you mean by 23) manner. Did we sell them? (24) MR. BERGMAN: Q. Yes. (2M "A. Yes. jin THE WITNESS: Yes. (2) MR. BERGMAN: Q. Okay. Would those primarily 01 be large dry wall contractors? (4) A. I don't know ab o u t the size o f the (5) contractors. I (6) Q. Would they generally be dry wall contractors cm as opposed to householders or small consumers? (0) A. Well, yeah, I d on 't think w e would normally o sell to the person putting a deck on the back o f their house (io) or something. But w e would sell to contractors. (U ) Q. Okay. Do you, and by you I mean Kaiser 1121 Gypsum, have any knowledge of any of the contractors that :1 3> Kaiser Gypsum supplied joint compound to between 1964 and (14) 1975? usi MS. JACKSON: I object insofar as you use the (1 s> word "contractors." I don't think we have any knowledge of i n i what these entities are. W hat their businesses are is not (13) at this point knowable by us. (19) MR. BERGMAN: That's well taken. (20) Q. I'd like to inquire whether or not j Kaiser 1211 Gypsum has any knowledge of !any of the customers that bought 1221 I directly from Kaiser Gypsum joint compound Page 75 ' i ) Q. Would Kaiser Gypsum sell them to, was there a (2) wholesaler in Portland and Vancouver Metropolitan areas on responsible, primarily responsible for products in C3) the '64 to 7 5 time period? (24) A. Yes, I think w e have | knowledge. (23) Q. W hat are some of the some of the customers who distributing your on joint compound products Page 77 in the '64 to 7 5 time period? (' > A. The term "wholesaler" I'm not sure of. There () w ere certainly suppliers. i) Q. Okay. W as there a primary or a principal on supplier? I guess let me try to put the question together cn this way. How would Kaiser Gypsum joint compounds go from (101 the, get from the factory to the consumer in fh i Portland :m area in the 1964 to 7 5 time frame? (1 ) purchased joint compound in the '64 to 7 5 period in o Portland? (3) MS. JACKSON: I'm going to object to the (4) question as overbroad. My Iunderstanding in our conversation (5) of |yesterday you were interested in inquiring as jto the (5) plaintiffs job sites and suppliers that may or may not have cn supplied to those particular job sites. I think we're <a> j prepared to answer those questions for you !but are not (9) prepared to give you answers 11/4/98 ___________ XMAX(13/13) :on the greater area other than 1 :' whatwe .talked about generally that there was (distribution a u in the that area in the years 'you've inquired aboi^t. i: i MR. BERGMAN: Yeah, and as I indicated this is (isi not an area I intend to 'spend much time on. Are there, have .14; you prepared -- let's go off the record for a i minute. | (in THE VIDEOGRAPHER: This marks Ithe end of tis> Videotape No. 1, Volume iNo. 1 in the deposition of Joseph (in Hobby. Going off the record. The time is 11:46 a.m. isi (Discussion off the record). | (*9) THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We're back on the record. 1201 At 11:49 a.m. This | marks the beginning of Videotape No. 2, I 2D Volume 1 in the deposition of Joseph Hobby. | 22) MR. BERGMAN: Q. Mr. Hobby, in preparation (23) for your testimony here jtoday have you reviewed some of the i job sites that Mr. Pickner worked at and some of the (25) contractors that may have J'supplied products to those Page 78 j (i) particular job sites? I 2) a . Yes. ! (3) Q. And can you tell me whether or (not Kaiser (4) Gypsum supplied products, supplied joint compound to any of in those job sites to the best of your knowledge? (3) A. Yes. ' (M Q. And what job sites were those sir? (3) A. There w ere none. (?) Q. There were none. None of the job :sites that noi you reviewed indicated Kaiser Gypsum products were used? j in) I (12) A. T hat's correct. MR. BERGMAN: Okay. All right. At this time (13) why don't we take a break. I'll indicate the exhibits I (14) want to inquire into and hopefully we can carry on. (15) THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Off the record at (i8) a.m. ( I *13I ) (Luncheon recess, 11:49 a.m. to j 1:36 p.m.). ii8) r.y. 1201 (2i> 1221 231 j1 (24) -- 0O 0-- !2r) | Page 79 | (i) (W H ER EU PO N , PLAINTIFF'S EXHIBITS 18 AND 19 (2) W ERE MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION), m i 4) AFTERNO O N SESSION im Novem ber4, 1998 1:36 P.M. (6) -- 0O0-- I cm JOSEPH R. HOBBY (3) having been | previously duly sworn, (9) testified further as follows: :i o :r.! (EXAMINATION BY MR. BERGMAN (RESUMED) (12) (in THE VIDEO GRAPHER: Back on the record at 1:36 (i'4, p.m. (15) MR. BERGMAN: Q. Mr. Hobby, you recognize (i> you're still under oath? Tooker & Antz (415) 392-0650 Page 73 fo Page 79 Pickner vs. Owens-Coming Joseph Ross Hobby A. Yes. id Q. Okay. If you would, please, on Page 5 of your aw interrogatories, I'd like to direct your attention to 201 Question No. 7. a MS. STEELE: What number? 22; MR. BERGMAN: Question No. 7. ; Q. The question is post had to Kaiser Gypsum: : a "State the date on which you learned that asbestos poses a hazard to human Page 80 a; health." 2 ' Would you please, sir, read the second : : paragraph of Kaiser Gypsum's response? a ; A. "W ithout waiving said objections si Kaiser Gypsum responds that it becam e aw are (si generally sometim e that the 1970s the users m of some asbestos-containing building products (si [could be at health - excuse me] could be at (si risk of inhaling quantities o f respirable uoi asbestos fibers sufficient to pose a a :: potential hazard to their health." -si Q. I'm going to ask you a number of questions, m i sir, concerning this question and the response to try to m : flush out a little better Kaiser Gypsum's position. In usi general it would appear to me, sir, would you not agree, csi that the answer to Interrogatory No. 7 relates to users of a?) asbestos-containing products? aw A. Yes, I would say that, a w Q. Okay. I want to pose some questions to you aoi generally, sir, not with respect to users of 2D asbestos-containing products but asbestos in general. When 22; did Kaiser Gypsum become aware that asbestos in general (23) posed a potential hazard to human health? 2D a . aware? -2) Q. W hen did they first becom e Yes, sir. Page 81 2. A. I have no idea. 2' Q. Okay. Was there a time, was there a time that (j) Kaiser Gypsum became aware of hazards of asbestos in general id prior to the time it became aware that users of its asbestos s> products could face a health risk? A. Well, I would answer that in this way, I :" guess. Asbestos is not a new term in the dictionary. ;si Asbestos w as known w ay back a long time ago as being w hat it :3 is. So w hen our people first became aware, I can't answer aoi that, but - I don't know if that answers your question or :iu not. I'm trying to say that a s b e s to s w a s n 't a h id d e n ite m -::2 > .. necessarily. 23 Q. Right. And was there some time prior to the 2D early'70s when Kaiser Gypsum became aware that asbestos as: could pose a potential hazard to human health? a ;: A. For users? ;i" ; Q. No, in general. I (221 a . In general? Yes, would I say there w as an a) aw areness. 20) Q. Okay. When was that awareness gained? ( 2d A. I don't know. ! : Q. Okay. Wasn't there a time prior |to the early : : d '70s when Kaiser Gypsum became aware that asbestos could 2d jpose a potential hazard to its employees? j 25) A. Yes. j ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Page 82 (1) Q. And approximately w h e n (2) A. I've seen docum ents that would lead me to id believe that they had | knowledge. I don't know w hen they ms first had knowledge, j (5) Q. I understand that, okay. I want to parse out () a little bit more, if I could, sir, !your response to n i Interrogatory No. 7. It indicates that Kaiser Gypsum became 2; aware generally some time in the '70s that users of its <9> asbestos products could face a health risk. My question to aoi you, sir, is, can you be any more specific as to when in m i the '70s Kaiser Gypsum became aware that users of its n : i products could face a health problem? (in A. Well, I don't know. I have seen a docum ent a n where warning labels were put onto their products and nsi i certainly that would be I guess a point in tim e certain a?) w here there w as an awareness. (id Q. Okay. And we'll get to those documents later, uei sir, but if I represented to you that those documents are as; dated 1972 would that be a fair statement? | (20 MS. JACKSON: I'm going to object |insofar as <21) if you have a document that could help the witness then I t : : ; would like for you to tell him. He was not employed by the (23) company in those years and his knowledge is from documentary a o review. (25) MR. BERGMAN: I understand that. I understand * Page 83 (1) that. (2) Q. So it would be your testimony, sir, that at a) the date and we'll peruse those documents in a few minutes, :o at the date that the documents were generated by | Kaiser (5; Gypsum relating to warnings on jits products was the date on (5; which Kaiser | Gypsum recognized that its products could ' D potentially pose a hazard to its customers? iei A. Well, I w ouldn't characterize it exactly as oi you've said that. I would s a y th a t th a t's a p o in t in tim e 2 ; w h e re I have a docum ent that identifies that at j least a t a n that point in tim e there was that awareness. Now whether or ;12> not there was an aw areness prior to that, if som ebody could (i3) show me a document then I would know. Page 79 to Page 85 (415) 392-0650 11/4/98____________ _ XMAX(14/14) -ID Q. Okay. Looking a little bit more at your is) answer to Interrogatory No. 7, you i indicate that Kaiser as; Gypsum learned in th e '70s that users of some d d i asbestos-containing products could be at a ;risk of inhaling aa, quantities of respirable | asbestos fibers sufficient to pose (22; a hazard to human health. | (20) Was there some time prior to the | early 1970s a n when Kaiser Gypsum became aware that larger quantities of (2:1 asbestos dust could pose a risk to human health? (23) MS. JACKSON: I'm going to have to object that (24) the question is vague, overbroad. (25) THE WITNESS: I think I just answered that Page 84 a ; with my la s t- - the same answer would apply that the issue, 21 the quantity of asbestos fibers is not something that I can 3; focus on. I can focus on when we knew and we have at least (4) one document that says that we knew in, what did you say, (5) 1972? (6) MR. BERGMAN: Q. Okay. (D A. I've never reflected on the quantity. I've (8) never seen a document that reflects on the quantity w hether (?) there was m ore or less, aoi Q. Okay. And I'm not trying to mislead you in a n any way, sir. I'm trying to understand a little better (12; Kaiser Gypsum's position and let me try to rephrase the (i3) question and see if that helps. It may, it may not. It id would indicate to me from reading your response to as) interrogatory No. 7 that there was, there is some uei distinction regarding the quantity of asbestos in u d relationship to the human health risk. And I may have id misread your interrogatory in that respect in which case (i9) please correct me in that regard. But it would appear as 201 though from that answer that Kaiser Gypsum may have been (2d aware prior to the '70s that a greater quantity of asbestos 1:21 would have posed a human health risk. That may be a (23) misreading on my part. (24) A. W ell, all I can tell you is 1don't rem em ber 25) our thought process when we answered that interrogatory, and Page 85 (i) I can't rem em ber that there was a, the issue w hat would have ::: caused us to use the word "quantity." 3) Q. Okay. So as far as you're concerned you could id just as easily say that Kaiser Gypsum became aware generally isi in the '70s that its products posed a hazard to human health (8) and the issue of quantities is irrelevant? (D MS. JACKSON: I'm going to object insofar as si you want to rewrite the answers to interrogatories. He's (5) not Tooker & Antz Pickner vs. Owens-Coming Joseph Ross Hobby 11/ 4/98 XMAXJ15M5) going to give you a different answer than document, I guess the answer to your Gypsum as to ' whether or not its we've already :iO' submitted. You can ask i : question maybe is yes. products caused mesothelioma? your questions, we can go from m m there. 'i'.! Q. If you could- M A. Well, .all I know is that the, you We re not going to reanswer the ' i i ' A. I do n 't know that they know, there had been lawsuits in that interrogatories one k m by one. necessarily knew the ; - full scope and particular area and we've dealt with ' MR. BERGMAN: That's not what I'm ram ifications o f w hat that disease was or them. I don't, I haven't been party to endeavoring m m to do. I'm just trying to is. w hether or not :n> w e've adm itted as a understand what the interrogatory k m <: Q. That in 1965 the Kaiser com pany that we, our product is the means. I'm not trying to rewrite them or Gypsum's knowledge of m m mesothelioma | id cause o f mesothe - say it again for rephrase them or a?) anything like that. was limited to the information contained in me. 'q . Was Kaiser Gypsum familiar with m -m Exhibit 7? : ; ) Q. Mesothelioma the term k m "TLV" ? ; - A. I don't know. ' i ' ' A. I don't know that. : m MS. JACKSON: Absolutely does not, A. - thelioma Q. Well, let me ask you. does k m Q. You can't say one way or the Iyour m i characterization of his testimony is ;Kaiser Gypsum admit '' ' that its products otherwhether ion Kaiser Gypsum was incorrect. could have caused mesothelioma? aware of that? mm A. There m ay be a docum ent where the term "T LV " i : n is there. Now whether or not they were fam iliar with that k m term , again I w asn't there. k m Q. And sitting here today you have ! o'D MR. BERGMAN: Q. I'm just asking II think he i.m corrected me Did there come ! a time subsequent to 1965 when Kaiser .Gypsum became more conversant with the concept of 03) mesothelioma? j k m A. I don't know the answ er to that ! cm) A. I w ill not ad m it that. cm MS JACKSON I'm going to object I'm going cm to object only insofar as you're using a term, number one. ::: that i he's clearly not familiar with the definition. \ Number k : i two, he's not a medical expert no knowledge I because in k m order to be m ore I w ould j You're calling for an cm expert opinion Page 86 have to know w hat the level w as in jfrom him That's improper | MR. BERGMAN- Q Is Kaiser :: other than the documents as to whether S Page 88 Gypsum - what is mm Kaiser Gypsum's or not Kaiser Gypsum im was familiar with i n i the first place. And I've told you I do n 't i position as to whether or not its ::m that concept? know what the id level of knowledge i asbestos-containing jo nt compounds cans i A. No. No, that's right. |was. cancer? m Q. Sir, I'm handing you Exhibit 7. My first h i question, sir, is that one of the documents that you () reviewed with your attorneys? m A. Yes, it is. MS. JACKSON: Let me just state for the record :m that again this is one of the documents that was listed in k m the notice by evidently its first numbered page and with no i n indication that subsequent pages would be examined on. So ( i: i insofar as Pages 503 through 508 are attached, we have only k m seen them just today. So he has not seen the rest of this k m but he has seen this. i - 1 MR. BERGMAN: Q. Okay. Mr. Hobby, have you, usi let me just make sure I understand your counsel's statement. You have never seen before today Pages 503 through 508 of mbi Exhibit 7? : : m A. I don't recall th a t I've seen them. m m Q. Okay. Have you ever testified |'D Q. Did Kaiser Gypsum at any time j understand that <'> its products could ;potentially cause mesothelioma in the (s) | intended users of those products? i i d A. I don't know. ! d ) MS. JACKSON: Absolutely no foundation to that d) question j i d THE WITNESS: You know, we put warning labels noi on our packages in 1972 11believe it was you said. That r i would !indicate to me that we knew that there was a health :; :i hazard. Now whether or not we I knew that that health hazard i d led to | mesothe - I struggle with pronouncing it, I ! don't i h > know. ( id MR. BERGMAN: Q. Well, let me ask you this: (id Sitting here today what is what is Kaiser's position, Kaiser im Gypsum's position on whether or not its | products could have :i er*- caused j mesothelioma? I n i) MS. JACKSON: Sitting here today this is a k m company that is not in Page 90 id MS. JACKSON- Objection, it's overbroad. The m : word ''cancer" encompasses a number of different j diseases of n- different parts of the body Your client does not have m cancer u . MR. BERGMAN. He'd be surprised to here that. j 'M Q. What is Kaiser Gypsum's position as to whether :m or not its products caused a cancer of the chest wall? 'M MS. JACKSON Objection, lacks foundation, im calls for calls for medical opinion I'm instructing him n ' i not to answer. n i) MR. BERGMAN Your instructing him not to k .m answer - :iu MS. JACKSON: Absolutely D im MR. BERGMAN: - whether or not its product, iim whether or not the products I manufactured and so d by Kaiser '' : !Gypsum cause mesothelioma in the before m i regarding any deposition or court proceeding regarding c : i exhibits- A. No. Q. Pages 503 to 508 of Exhibit 7? A. No, I have not. Page 87 :; Q. Okay. I'm going to ask you some existence, does not transact business cui j and has no employees. So sitting here today lit doesn't have k m a position, on what products that it made 20 some odd years ji::-*: ago. I i :m ) MR. BERGMAN: Counsel, I'm going 'jto object to c m the speaking objection. And ; I understand that procedures in ' intended users? !M ) MS. JACKSON Absolutely Absolutely. mm MR. BERGMAN: And the basis on (that, Counsel? mm MS JACKSON That it's outside the ' scope of m m the notice. It calls for a medical opinion, lacks : : foundation H e ? questions id about Exhibit 7. If you would, j sir, let me ask you, at what in date did ' Page 89 i not going to answer it ! m m MR. BERGMAN' Q Are you gome Kaiser Gypsum became aware that there j| re California may be different but that's an to following mm your counsel's instruction was a disease im known as mesothelioma? ' A. I do n 't know. Q. Did there come a time, did Kaiser improperspeaking mi objection. ! im Q. Mr. Hobby, did Kaiser Gypsum's !products, joint in compounds, pose a i on that, sir. ! mm A. Yes. | im i Q . What is Kaiser Gypsum's Gypsum learn n i In 1965 that there was a j potential risk to causing mesothelioma? .position as to whether disease known as mesothelioma? n A. Well, to the extent that that disease is i") referenced in this D m A. I do n 't have a personal 1knowledge o f that. ! -m Q. What is the position of Kaiser Page 91 or not its products, it's Tooker & Antz (415) 392-0650 Page 85 to Page 91 BSA _______________ _________ Pickner asbestos-containing joint compounds posed a hazard to human health when used as a ; intended? - ; A. M ay have caused. :S) Q- What do you mean by that, sir? A. Well, my understanding is that asbestos a i potentially can cause health hazards in people. Okay. So an w e put warnings on our labels - on our products to notify on people o f that. T hat seem s perfectly proper. Now to me no: it's a giant leap to go from that conclusion to what you're a n trying to have me say here to you, that, yes, there is (in; definitely a causal factor between our p ro d u c ta n d a ain specific disease. I'm not in a position to sit here and i k i answer that affirmative, c-i) Q. Just so I understand your testimony and then ; lsj we'll move on, you are notin a position to say today im whether or not asbestos-containing joint compound as; manufactured by Kaiser Gypsum causes mesothelioma? a : MS. JACKSON: Asked and answered. MR. BERGMAN: Q. You can answer the question, a i; A. Yes. a n Q. You are not in a position to tell us that a n today? a n A. That's right. a n Q. Thank you. Sir, looking at, can you tell me, Page 92 a ; sir, what actions Kaiser Gypsum took in response to Exhibit a; 7? a ; MS. JACKSON: Again Exhibit7 with the a ; additional pages that we've just seen over the break? a> MR. BERGMAN: You have a standing objection on :s; that, Counsel, a THE WITNESS: Well, judging from the cover a i letter the attachments were forwarded by a Mr. Flicker to a n number of named individuals. a n MR. BERGMAN: Q. W how asM r. Flicker? a n A. My review of the organizational c h a r t;io indicates that he had som e role in the safety departm ent. a n Q. After the attachments to document 502 were m i circulated to individuals in the company what action was n : taken by Kaiser Gypsum in response to that information, the ns; information contained within that document? a n A. I don't know whether there was or was n otany as; further action taken. 1a Q. Can you tell me whether or not Kaiser Gypsum no; stopped manufacturing asbestos-containing joint compounds ten after Exhibit 7 was circulated throughout the company? nci MS. JACKSON: Assumes facts not in evidence. a n THE WITNESS: No, I- w e ll, I Page 91 fo Page 96 vs. Owens-Corning Joseph Ross Hobby understand that a ;, we stopped manufacturing asbestos-containing products, ! a a compound products at our Seattle plant around 1975. : Page 93 ; a: MR. BERGMAN: Q. And that was iten years after a; Exhibit 7 was drafted; is ;that correct? ; a : A. That's right, l a : Q. Can you tell m e -- i a: A. I would point out that the :second paragraph a:; does talk |something about respirators and that sort | o f thing n i w ere used. I !8) Q. Yeah. When did Kaiser Gypsum j begin to warn o ; users of its product to use | respirators? ! (10) A. Well, the docum ent I have, I Ithink you a n provided fo r me this afternoon, was around 1972 I believe, a ; | don't know if that's the first such. a n MS. JACKSON: I would really would task counsel a-n if you'd show him the | documents or give us the numbers to ( > Irefer to. j : l i > MR. BERGMAN: Sure, that's fine. :Sometimes I a n don't know what it is. aei Q. I'm handing you Exhibit I3, Mr. Hobby, and a n that's, for counsel's record No. 302. ' a n A. Yes sir. | a n Q. | direct your attention to exhibit, is that 7? ; a n A. No, 13. | a n MS. JACKSON: T h e - | a n MR. BERGMAN: The one that you're iholding, (25; sir. ------ ------------------------------------------ -- ----------------------------------------------------------------- j Page 94 H ii MS. JACKSON: This is 7. ' a : THE WITNESS: 13? | a i MR. BERGMAN: Q. Yeah, 13. ;Directing your m attention to Exhibit I3, sir, j in the middle of that document ;5> there's a, i it appears to be a warning; is that correct ; sir? ;i: A. Yes. It's described as a caution actually. ; a ; Q. Caution. Okay. Is that the caution ;that (2: Kaiser Gypsum placed on its ^products, its a ; asbestos-containing joint products that you previously a n testified : tO ? ; it is. A. This memo would indicate that a n Q. Okay. And if you could please read to me the (in exact admonition that ,was provided? a n a . "Caution: Contains asbestos j fibers. j a n Avoid creating dust. Breathing .asbestos dust m ay ca u se serious bodily harm." a n Q. You would a agree with me, sir, then, that as: nothing in this admonition .says anything about respirators? an you. a . No. That's right, I agree with (415) 392-0650 11/4/98 XMAX(16/16) n : Q. All right. If you could please look back on a n Exhibit 7 with me for a minute, sir, and I'm, I'd like to nzi direct your attention to Pages 503 and 504, understanding as; counsel has a standing abjection on that question. If you 2;; could peruse those two pages and tell me whether or not as; there's any reference to, any statement that a prolonged and | Page 95 | substantial exposure to asbestos is i necessary before (2; mesothelioma is 'contracted? | a A. Maybe you can help me if you , know if there is (<> such a mention. a : Q. Okay. If you could please look on the Page is; 504? i ' A. Okay. : a: MS. JACKSON: I'm just going to | object the a ; document speaks for itself. It's not a document that was ao> created by | anyone from Kaiser Gypsum. It's not authored by a n a Kaiser Gypsum employee. The document speaks for itself. I ;a : He can read from it but this prolongs the testimony here. I a ;; MR. BERGMAN: Q. Sir, are you Iaware of any a-n knowledge regarding the i Pickner case? : ae i A. Yes, I have know ledge o f the Pickner case. : Q. Are you aware of when Mr. Pickner was a n diagnosed with mesothelioma? I a n A. No, in fa c t I didn't know that Mr. Pickner had a n mesothelioma. j a ;| Q. Are you aware, sir, that Mr. Pickner was (2D diagnosed with ;mesothelioma approximately 32 years after I a n this Exhibit 7 was authored? I a i! A. I just answ ered that I didn't ^know he had (24) m esotheliom a. (2:) Q. Okay. Moving along, handing you Exhibit8,1*I i Page 96 ` a ask you whether you can identify that for ! me, please, sir? I 2: MS. JACKSON: This is another of the ,documents (n with the standing objection to the completeness issue. : (4: THE WITNESS: Can I identify it? ; a: MR. BERGMAN: Q. Yes. (2 A. In w hat respect? c- Q. Do you know what it is? a A. You just gave It to me. No, I don't know w hat c- it is. a a Q. Okay. I a 1 : A. It's a m em o. a : ' Q. Okay. And is this again another Imemo from Mr. a n Flicker? | : -- MS. JACKSON: The document speaks for itself. a a a . Yes, it w ould appear to be. : a t) MR. BERGMAN: Q. And Mr. Flicker, sir, was an id individual at Kaiser ;who had some responsibility over n n : safety? Tooker & Antz Pickner vs. Owens-Coming Joseph Ross Hobby 11/4/98 A. I understand that to be the case. - ' 1 Q. And Mr. Franklin, am I correct, sir, was the ::i> vice president of manufacturing? uc A. Oh, I'd have to go back to the, and cross c u reference the organization charts that c u Q. Okay. I'll hand you my copy, c u ^A. Okay. response to Exhibit 8 regarding products ' cu manufactured by Kaiser Gypsum? c m a . No, I do not. | it si MS. JACKSON: Assumes facts not in j evidence. j c m MR. BERGMAN: Q. Doyouknow |whether or not i Kaiser Gypsum continued to manufacture asbestos-containing c m joint compounds | after Exhibit 8 was authored7 : m A. Well, I've seen a number of docum ents com ing m ostly from the Safety Department. And my understanding o f - the way the Safety D epartm ent w orked is it dealt w ith .: employee issues, not end user issues, c u Q. Uh-huh. : c ' A. So com ing from the safety personnel, various documents that [you've given me and that I have seen Page 97 c MS. JACKSON: I'll just make an objection in o that this document that you've handed him, Plaintiffs 0240 cu is dated 1970 and the document you're inquiring on is 1966. cu It would appear not to relate. L THE WITNESS: Okay. I see a Mr. P. J. -u Franklin. MR. BERGMAN: Q. Okay. Ifyou would look iu with me, sir, and if you could read for me the first full c i paragraph of Exhibit 8. ' 1'1: MS. JACKSON: The document speaks for itself. : u MR. BERGMAN: Could you read that for me, sir? j c u A. Yeah, to the best o f my , knowledge they did. | c m Q. And did Kaiser Gypsum ever [provide a warning c m suggesting that users Iof Kaiser Gypsum products wear a ecu respirator approved by the U.S. Bureau of j Mines? | ' m i A. I can't answ er the word "ever." [ c m Q. Let me rephrase the question ;then for you, i Page 99 j c i sir. Are you aware of Kaiser Gypsum !ever providing any c i warnings to users of j its products that they should wear a m [respirator approved by the United States [ Bureau of Mines? [ ii A. No, I'm not. have c requirements that employees use respirators. So I deduct c u from that that there was an awareness by Kaiser to a c ' potential hazard at least of asbestos, raw asbestos :u exposure. Like I said before, the !asbestos, the term c m "asbestos" has ' been around a long time. c u Q. So would it be fair to say, sir, [that at least c m as of 1969 Kaiser Gypsum was aware that its employees c u working around asbestos faced a potential health [hazard7 [ c " A. Well, this is dated 1972 if you're making c m reference to this. c m Q I'm sorry, sir, I was referring to Exhibit 9. c u A. "Recent studies by medical i cm Q. Let me hand you Exhibit 9, sir. Sir, ! Page 101 authorities tiai tend to show some possible connection between im i I'd like c i to direct your attention on Exhibit 9 ' Upper right. to the bottom of the c i page regarding I c i MS. JACKSON Let's correct the date inhalation o f asbestos dust and cancer. safety indicating that employees should wear !atthe cu top of the bulletin. It's 6/20/72 Be c u certain that all persons who work c i respirators when handling and weighing [which cancels an earlier cm document. At in the c m vicinity o f asbestos are and batching u asbestos. Do you know the top You've got the wrong date c wearing a proper r.n respirator whether or not employees of Kaiser u u highlighted, ' approved by the U.S. Bureau of c m i Gypsum did wear respirators while handling, MR. BERGMAN: Q. I'm sorry, sir Mines for asbestos dust." j weighing and c m batching asbestos? iCouldyou cu please turn to Page 218 of c m Q. Do you know what the purpose of i c i A. I have no personal knowledge. [ Exhibit 97 the Exhibit 8 c u was, who it was intended to I w asn't there. i :u A. I'm sorry, I d id n 't hear you, go to7 Q. Can you tell me whether or not, ; m Q. Never mind. Sir, I'm handing you c u A. Well, it w ould indicate that It [do you know c m one way or the other 'what has c u been marked as Exhibit 10 was to go to c m safety supervisors. jwhether Kaiser Gypsum required its o n I'm sorry, Counsel, It's 333. c m Q. And do you know whether or not !employees to wear respirators when MS. JACKSON: Thank you. precautions c u were taken in response to !handling asbestos? MR. BERGMAN: Q. Did Kaiser Exhibit 87 j n c A. Well, I can assum e that if this ,Gypsum at some u point become aware c m A. I have no direct knowledge sort of a : in safety warning was that the federal government was cm whether of not !disseminated that they would have been considering banning asbestos from Page 98 ::: precautions w ere taken in response to Exhibit 8. c : Q. Do you know whether or not Exhibit 8 pertains c. to asbestos risks posed by or presented to users of Kaiser Gypsum products or employees of Kaiser Gypsum? ' ' MS JACKSON: Assumes facts not in evidence. - MR BERGMAN Q. Let me restate the question c : Does Exhibit 8 draw any distinction between users of Kaiser ru c m required to w ear them. j CM Q. Why would Kaiser Gypsum [suggest that its coi employees wear respirators and not suggest that its c u Icustomers wear respirators7 ! cm MS. JACKSON: Lacks foundation, assumes facts c u notin evidence, j c m THE WITNESS: Well, first of all, I can ; c m probably answer that in several ways, but my first thought, I Page 100 ' u I'd be supposing, of course, my first thought on that is o that the hazard of I asbestos- containing ' m building products7 cu A. I d o n 't know. At some point in [ time? [Mu Q Mm-hmm ; c m A. I don't know. [ C.U MS. JACKSON Overbroad l cu i THE WITNESS: When they became aware that the mm:: government was 1considering doing something. If there's a i o document that says that, you know. I cm MR. BERGMAN. Q Maybe if you .could look at c u the document I just handed you, Exhibit 10 for a second. Gypsum products and employees of Kaiser Gypsum7 c MS JACKSON: The document speaks for itself. c THE WITNESS: No, it doesn't draw a cm distinction. c u MR. BERGMAN: Q. D oyouknow what action, if r c i any, was taken in handling, weighing and batching raw cm | asbestos was known to Kaiser Gypsum. |What was not known was cm the hazard of | asbestos in an end product that may be used |by c i a user. | m' i MR. BERGMAN: Q. And what is the basis for m that understanding, sir? You !indicated that - ' I PagJe 102 ! c A. Is there a sentence in there? W hy d o n 't you c help me. c u Q. If you could look at the third I paragraph. j cm A. Third paragraph. Well, it talks about if cu asbestos fiber is banned. I guess it doesn't say by the cu federal Tooker & Antz (415) 392-0650 Page 96 to Page 102 bsa Pickrter vs. Owens-Coming Joseph Ross Hobby 11/4/98______________ XMAX(18/18) g o v ern m e n t. ` Q. Mm-hmm. So it would be correct to say that in s: November of 1971 Kaiser 'Gypsum was aware that there was a :w potential that asbestos fiber might be banned from its ; i3) products? - i. MS. JACKSON: The document speaks for itself. iz: THE WITNESS: That's what it says. ; MR. BERGMAN: Q. And I'm also correct, sir, (i4i that as of in November of 1971 that Kaiser Gypsum at that (is ) point was not providing any warnings to its customers <isi concerning asbestos content of its products? a r; A. I d o n 't know when w arnings w ere first provided aej to its customers. aw Q. Could you please look for me, sir, on Exhibit icoi 2, Page 5, your interrogatory answers? ai; A. E x h ib it2? a : : Q. Yeah. That's your interrogatory answers. A. Okay. W hat page? aw Q. Page 5. - A. Okay. Now where? :: to ::i a: Page 103 Q. If you could look at your response Interrogatory No. 6. MR. PETTY: Matt? MR. BERGMAN: Yes, sir. was generated warnings were not being provided? i ;73 MS. JACKSON: Lack of foundation, speculation, ib; assumes facts not in evidence. a ; THE WITNESS: Yes. | r-`3) MR. BERGMAN: Q. Y ouw antto look atyour a - ; answer to 19, to ; Interrogatory No. 6, and you indicate (ic > j beginning in 1972 Kaiser affixed caution | labels. When in riai 1972 did Kaiser begin affixing cautionary labels on its a v products? ns) A. I don't know. (iB) Q. Any time within January and i December of 1972? I (17> A. Yes. I'm not sure this is an j exact science. ! (is) Q. If you could look with me on Exhibit I3. (is) A. Yes. :-v) Q. We've previously discussed this document, (2D First of all, do you know who Mr. Toomey was? cl) A. I don't know Mr. Toom ey, or I understand he a n m ay have been an attorney. But I've been advised by counsel cmi that that may be the case but I have not personally seen his ;as i name on any organization chart. Page 105 put on there. W e know that that's the case. I 5) Q. But sitting here today you can't ' say whether a warnings started to be put on in January in '72 or September a ; of 1972? (si A. No, I can't. a ; MS. JACKSON: Asked and answered. I (io) MR. BERGMAN: Q. If I could direct iyour (id attention, sir, to the last full paragraph on the first page as; of Exhibit 13, it refers to a federal regulation regarding | (13) labeling. Could you read that paragraph, sir? ( in MS. JACKSON: The paragraph beginning with the usi reason? (16) MR. BERGMAN: Q. Correct. (17) A. "The reason for using the foregoing aei lab e lo n ly fo r asbestos-containing products aw is jthat they are the only gypsum products | (20) which federal laws a t this time | require to be (211 m arked. The regulation i w ent into effect July (22) 7th, 1972. Therefore, every effort should be ::n i m ade to im m ediately com ply with it. The | (24) label should be applied by stencil, ;stam ps, (25) stickers or w hatever may be the most | Page 107 a ; MR. PETTY: This is Ken Petty. I don't in MS. STEELE: What exhibit number are | a) convenient means fo r prompt ' mean (W to unduly interrupt you but may I you (2) looking at? !c o m p lia nc e." have an objection, may we c i have an (3) MR. BERGMAN: It's 302. ! (2) Q. Would it be fair to say, sir, after objection to all of your warnings questions (4) MS. STEELE: What page? reading (3) that paragraph that in simply (si because of the lack of relevance (5) MR. BERGMAN: First page. September of 1972 Kaiser Gypsum was and not reasonably iw calculated to lead to ; s) MS. JACKSON: To the extent there's a (4) notin current compliance with the any admissible evidence in this : io > c i privilege issue if he is an attorney I'd like federal regulation? particular case. I think you're well familiar with to preserve (3) that objection, (5) MS. JACKSON: I think that's Mr. ;: i) Pickner's testimony regarding his tw MR. BERGMAN: Absolutely, Counsel. speculation and (6) lacks foundation. practice in terms of a o reading warnings or :ioi Q. Do you know, sir, w hether- - well, (7) THE WITNESS: No, I wouldn't say instructions on the product packaging of if you (id could just --have you had a ' that that was ;s: fair to say that. other trades. |chance to look over Exhibit 13 1121 prior to :s) MR. BERGMAN: Q. You couldn't aw MR. BERGMAN: You certainly do is | my questioning of you? say one way or ao) the other. have a as) standing objection on that (in A. I looked over it, yes. a i ) A. I could not say one way or the subject matter, Ken. (io MS. JACKSON: Insofar as we didn't other. MR. PETTY: Thank you. have Page 2 as) until the break. a :) Q. Okay. Why didn't Kaiser THE WITNESS: I didn't get your question. (is) MR. BERGMAN: I know. (id MS. JACKSON: Okay. Gypsum provide more (12; specific warnings than the ones set forth on the first MR. BERGMAN: Q. Okay. We (-si MR. BERGMAN: Q. Okay. Do you i page (14) of Exhibit I37 were discussing ; is) whether or not at the know, sir, a w whether warnings were (15) MS. JACKSON: Calls for time Exhibit 10 was generated, the ;coi i applied to Kaiser Gypsum asbestos aoi Ispeculation, assumes as: facts notin memorandum, Kaiser Gypsum was providing products prior to the promulgation of Exhibit i evidence. warnings to its aai customers concerning j 13? i n i A. I don't know. hazards of asbestos. And I'd like you ; : 2 , if : :i: A. No, I don't know for sure. I ns) Q. W as there a reason that Kaiser you would, sir, to look at Page 5 of your a n ( ii) Q. What is your best Gypsum did not aw specifically provide interrogatories, and tell me whether or not 1understanding? warnings regarding the sanding of its a : > that refreshes a-w your recollection on 1aw a . I don't know. W h a t I can tell i product? whether warnings were being provided in ;you is I have, in . I've seen this | (in A. I don't know. November of 1971? docum ent, it says S eptem ber 28th, 1 9 7 2 ,1 j (22) Q. W as there a reason that Kaiser Page 104 | (25) have n o w a y of knowing this w as the Gypsum did not c i) provide specific first in a series of iwarnings regarding the mixing of its dry aw A. Well, this says beginning in 1972. If there's - a distinction between j Page 106 joint compounds? I aw A. I don't know.*i N ovem ber o f '71 and the beginning o f (3) j i n docum ents or not. And I think that in 1972 then I'll stand corrected. ! response to our (2) Interrogatory No. 6 i Page 108 a Q. Okay. So would it be fair to state, !that's w hy w e said as w e did that ( 3 ) j (i) Q. W as there a reason why Kaiser sir, that (5) at least at the time that Exhibit 10 1som etim e in 1972 there w ere warnings i Gypsum did not (2) specifically warn the Page 102 to Page 108 (415) 392-0650 Tooker & Antz BSA Pickner vs. Owens-Coming Joseph Ross Hobby 11/4/98 XMAX(20/20) you could take a minute to peruse or as ; 2d A. I'm not aw are o f any. By the 16 that refer or relate to any :2.-. tests of long as you want really to -c o peruse Exhibit i sam e token, I 22) mean one w ay or the !Kaiser Gypsum products for the benefit of 16 and I'll ask you some general questions other. I don't know w hether there w as ,end ,20 users? Page 114 i 23) any testing done. | 24) Q. You don't know, okay. And are 25) A. I think I answ ered that. The answ er is no. :i; regarding it. you aware of ;2S) Kaiser Gypsum being MS. JACKSON: Take as much time :provided with any testing of joint i Page 118 as you need to 3) read it. u MR. BERGMAN: Yeah, please do. ! Page 116 | ( i; MR. BERGMAN: Okay. I think I'm almost done. (2) Why don't we take a And, of course, counsel has a standing ; in compounds in general regarding levels of break. objection. ' airborne asbestos <2: fibers? (in THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Off the :si Q. And if it's helpful, Mr. Hobby, I'm j (3) MS. JACKSON: Could you restate record at 2:37 p.m. going to cd be directing questioning-- iyour question, u i please? i4) (Brief recess). 3) A. Yeah, I mean this is a lengthy ! 5) MR. BERGMAN: Q. Absolutely. You (5) THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Back on the docum ent, four no or five pages it's hard previously <ei testified I believe, Mr. Hobby, record at 2:51 <o p.m. for m e to focus on w hat you might (ioi \that you are not aware of < ) any tests prior cm MR. BERGMAN: Q. Mr. Hobby, did ask me. W hy don't you proceed. |to 1974 of Kaiser Gypsum compounds to there come a (si time when Kaiser Gypsum .id Q. I'm going to be focusing my <8i determine levels of asbestos fibers stopped using asbestos in its joint (5) questioning (i - : basically on the first and posed by the users of 9) Kaiser Gypsum compounds? second page and then Page 499 if <13) products. My question to you is are you |(io) A. Yes. that's helpful to you. aware (ioi of Kaiser Gypsum receiving any ( in Q. And when was that? !-<) a . Please ask your question and information regarding tests ( in performed (ioi A. Well, in the Seattle operations if I have to take <i= ) more tim e I will. on other manufacturers'joint compounds it w as around (i3) 1975. : ii) Q. Fine. Please do that. First of all, I regarding u o airborne asbestos levels prior (14) Q. How about company wide, was direct your attention to the upper to 1974? 'there a time in usi which asbestos was right-hand corner of Exhibit 16. <is ; It <i3i MS. JACKSON: If you know. completely phased out of joint compounds indicates that the document is confidential. <i4) THE WITNESS: I don't know. It's a \ (i5) that were manufactured and sold by Do you know <191 why Exhibit 16 would have long us) question but from what I gathered I Kaiser Gypsum? been confidential? from it I have no (i-i knowledge of any ( 1 *(i)47) A. I understood it w as about the <33! a . No, and in fact I don't know testing that was going on regarding end id sam e tim e in the ( i 2) r e s to fth e that th at w as a, (in I can't tell from that users. icom pany as well, and certainly the that it w as an original part o f that <2c; <13; MR. BERGMAN: Q. Just so I can com pany (i5) basically w as out of docum ent. It m ay not, it m ay have been understand <i5) your testimony then, so far i business by 1978. added later. as you know the first testing coi that was (20) MR. BERGMAN: Those are all the <031 Q. Are you aware of any testing of performed for the benefit or regarding end questions I (2 1 ) have at this time. Thank Kaiser Gypsum 24) joint compounds prior users <2i) was in 1974? you. to 1974 to determine the levels of csi 22) MS. JACKSON: Assumes facts not in (22) MS. JACKSON: Any other airborne asbestos from the use of said evidence. questions? products? <2 3 ) MR. BERGMAN: Q. The first (23) THE VIDEOGRAPHER: This is the Page 115 testing that (24) you're aware of? 25) MS. JACKSON: Overbroad. end of the (24) deposition of Joseph Hobby. The total number of videotapes c i) used is >-) A. Any testing o f joint compounds? 2) Q. Correct. j Page 117 2. All the original videotapes will be held at | (i; THE WITNESS: Does this document Page 119 <3) A. For airborne? saytherew as (2) a te stin 1974? (i) Tooker& Antz, 818 Mission Street, 5th M) Q. Correct. (2) MR. BERGMAN: Q. If you could turn Floor, San Francisco, 2) California 94103. <3) A. I don't, I don't, I w ouldn't be j with me, (4) please, to Pag 499. Telephone area code 415-392-0650. Going aw are o f any <s) test that you would do (5) A. Yes. (3i off the record. The time is 2:52 p.m. on a compound to test for airborne. (2) Q. Did Union Carbide conduct tests (4) MR. PETTY: Before we go off the ;') Q. Okay, okay. Are you aware of, are i of Kaiser i d Gypsum joint compounds? stenographic (5) record can we confirm the you aware iei of any testing that Kaiser :9, MS. JACKSON: The document speaks witness is going to reserve () signature? Gypsum conducted prior to 1974 to <s> ;for itself. j cm MR. BERGMAN: Absolutely. determine whether the use of its joint i : 9, THE WITNESS: This document says | ;ei (Whereupon, the deposition was compounds exceeded (ioi the threshold that it's the (ioi result of tests with KAGC concluded at (5) 2:52 p.m.). ; i: ; id :i :. limit value of airborne asbestos? compounds by Union Carbide. : :i3) A. Not the use of it. I am aw are of d i d MR. BERGMAN: Q. A ndareyou som e testing -2) that was done in our plants by an industrial hygienist to <i ) determine exposure, asbestos exposure, aware of any 1121 tests prior to 1974? , 13) A. This d o e s n 't-- j i n ; MS. JACKSON: Objection, ; (15- SIGNATURE OF WITNESS as ! ( I D CIS) (19! ! D , (2 1 ) (2 2 ) :2D ,24 d-n Q. Of your, of Kaiser Gypsum's ; overbroad. employees? m id THE WITNESS: This doesn't say A. Yes. when the tests a; may or may not have : Q. Okay. Okay. But your testimony, !occurred. though, is in . that you're not, Kaiser j i m MR. BLACK: What was the exhibit ! Gypsum is not aware -- well, prior <ie ) to inumber of ns) that document? 1974 did Kaiser Gypsum conduct any testing (i5) MR. BERGMAN: I'm sorry, it's 495. of its 13) products to determine the :2&) MR. BLACK: Thank you. exposure level of its customers to <coi (2i) MR. BERGMAN: Q. Are you aware, asbestos fibers? sir, of any <221 documents other than Exhibit Page 113 to Page 119 (415) 392-0650 Tooker & Antz