Document jBBZ5Q8Nbk7p7j0ax5LaEK5jO

ORIGINAL IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT FOR THE EASTERN DISTRICT OF TEXAS BEAUMONT DIVISION CHARLES B. WRIGHT, ET UX., VS . PLAINTIFFS, MONSANTO COMPANY, ET AL., DEFENDANTS. ) ) ) ) NO, B-85-3 22-CA ) ) ) ) Deposition of W.B. PAPAGEORGE Taken on behalf of the PLAINTIFF. GORE REPORTING COMPANY 408 Olive Street St. Louis, Missouri 241-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000060899 1 IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT 2 FOR THE EASTERN DISTRICT OF TEXAS 3 BEAUMONT DIVISION 4 5 CHARLES B. WRIGHT, ET UX, ) 6) 7 Plaintiffs, ) 8) 9 vs . ) NO. B-85-322-CA 10 ) 1 1 MONSANTO COMPANY, ET AL., ) 12 ) 13 Defendants . ) 14 15 Deposition of W.B. PAPAGEORGE, taken on 16 behalf of the Plaintiffs at the Danielle Hotel, in 17 the County of St. Louis, State of Missouri, on the 18 26th day of September, 1986 before Elsie M. 19 Delevich, Registered Professional Reporter and 20 Notary Public. 21 22 23 24 25 GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 2 WATER PCB-SD0000060900 1 APPEARANCES OP COUNSEL: 2 3 FOR THE PLAINTIFF: 4 Mr. Herschel L. Hobson 5 4000 Twin City Highway 6 Groves, Texas 77619 7 FOR THE DEFENDANT, MONSANTO COMPANY: 8 Mr. Robert A. Hall 9 Woodard, Hall & Primm, P.C. 1 0 4700 Texas Commerce Tower 1 1 Houston, Texas 77002 1 2 FOR THE DEFENDANT, WESTINGHOUSE: 13 Ms. Roseann Oliver 1 4 Phelan, Pope & John, Ltd. 15 180 North Wacker Drive 16 Chicago, Illinois 60606 17 FOR THE DEFENDANT, GENERAL ELECTRIC: 18 Mr. Morris C. Carrington 19 Mehafty, Weber, Keith & 20 Gonsoulin 21 Interfirst Tower 22 Beaumont, Texas 77702 23 24 25 GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 3 WATER PCB-SD0000060901 1 2 FOR THE DEFENDANT, TRANSFORMER 3 CONSULTANTS: 4 Mr. Kent G. Sullivan 5 Cook, Davis & Me Fa 11 6 Two Houston Center, Suite 2600 7 Houston, Texas 77010 8 FOR THE DEFENDANT, RESEARCH-COTTRELL: 9 Mr . Paul A. Scheurich 10 Benekenstein, Norvell, Bernsen 11 & Nathan 12 600 Interfirst Tower 13 P.O. Box 551 14 Beaumont, Texas 77702 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI WATER 1 W.B. PAPAGEORGE 2 of lawful age, having been first duly sworn to 3 testify the truth, the whole truth, and nothing 4 but the truth in the case aforesaid, deposes and 5 says in reply to oral interrogatories propounded 6 a s follows, to-wit: 7 DIRECT EXAMINATION 8 QUESTIONS BY MR. HOBSON: 9 Q. Would you introduce yourself, sir? 10 A. William B. Papageorge. 1 1 Q. Mr. Papageorge, my name is Herschel 12 Hobson and I think we have met here just a few 13 moments ago for the first time. I am going to 14 take your deposition in this case, and I represent 15 the plaintiff and as I understand, you are 16 employed by Monsanto? 17 A . Yes. 18 Q. Monsanto is a company that we have sued, 19 so you recognize I am on the other side of this 20 lawsuit from you and your employer? 21 A . I do. 22 Q. How long have you been employed by 23 Monsanto, Mr. Papageorge? 24 A . Since 19 5 1. 25 Q. Were you employed by anybody else before GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 5 WATER PCB-SD0000060903 1 that? 2 A . Yes . 3 Q . Just brief thumbnail history of your 4 employmen t? 5 A. The previous four years I was with the 6 Philips Petroleum Company in Bartlesville, 7 Oklahoma. 8 Q. What kind of work do you do, Mr. 9 Papageorge? What is your training? Are you an 10 engineer or -- 11 A. My training, I have degrees in chemical 12 engineer. 13 Q. We were interrupted just briefly, Mr. 14 Papageorge. You told me you were a chemical 15 engineer? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. What degrees do you hold? 18 A. Bechelor of science degree, and a 19 masters of science degree. 20 Q. Where did you get your degrees? 21 A. Both from Washington University in St. 22 Louis. 23 Q. Did you go to Philips after you got your 24 degrees? 25 A . Yes . GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 6 WATER PCB-SD0000060904 1 Q. And when you came to Monsanto in 1951, 2 what was your job capacity a t that time? 3 A . Design engineer. 4 Q. Where were you located? 5 A . The Monsanto plant in St. Louis called 6 the John F. Queenie plant. 7 Q This case has to do with PCBs, and I 8 understand that there is a plant in Illinois that 9 made the PCBs, that your understanding? 10 A . Yes . 1 1 Q. Was that the only plant at Mons anto that 12 made PCBs ? 13 A . No . 14 Q What is the name of the town in Illinois 15 where the PCBs were made? 16 A . Sauget, S-A-U-G-E-T. 17 Q. That is why I asked you to say it. I 18 wasn't sure how to do it. 19 Where else did Monsanto make PCBs? 20 A . Anniston, Alabama. 21 Q- Anyplace else? 22 A . Newport, Wa1es in the United Kindgom. 23 Q. Anyplace else? 24 A . And there was a joint venture with 25 Mitsubishi in Japan . GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 7 WATER PCB-SD0000060905 1 - Q. Any others? 2 A. That is all 1 am aware of. 3 Q. In some of the other depositions or in 4 the literature I have read about PCBs there is a 5 mention of a certain kind of Japanese dielectric 6 material. Did you all have a trade name for your 7 Japanese dielectric material? 8 A. It was the same trade name we used in 9 the United States and Europe. 1 0 Q. Aroclor? 11 A . Aroclor. 12 Q. So I read about another Japanese 13 dielectric material, a trade name which I can't 1 4 remember right now, but Monsanto, inc1uding this 15 Mitsubishi joint venture you always used Aroclor 16 as your trade name? 17 A . Yes. 18 Q. Have you ever worked at any one of those 19 other plants, has that ever been your assignment? 20 A. I worked at two of the four. 21 Q. Which two was that? 22 A. The Anniston, Alabama plant and the 23 Sauget, Illinois plant. 24 Q. I had in 1951 here in St. Louis, where 25 you s tarted. That is not either one of these two GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI WATER PCB-SD0000060906 1 plants ? 2 A. That is correct. 3 Q. Where did you go next in your career 4 with Monsanto after you were design engineer here 5 inSt. Louis'? 6 A. You mean geographically or work 7 assignment? 8 Q. Promotion wise and then if you changed 9 geographically, let me know? 10 A. At the same site in 1953, approximately, 1 1 I was appointed a supervisor of a chemical 12 production unit at the same plant, the Queenie 13 plant. 14 Following that, I was assigned to still 15 another chemical producing unit. That would be 16 about 1954. 17 Q. And that plant was still in St. Louis, 18 here? 19 A. Yes. Still the same location. 20 And about 1955, I was appointed a 21 maintenance supervisor at the same plant. And 22 about 1956, '57, I was the maintenance 23 superindendent at the same plant. About 1958 or 24 '59, I wa3 appointed general superindendent of 25 warehousing distribution, shipping and utilities. GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 9 WATER PCB-SD0000060907 1 And in 1964, I was transferred to the Sauget, 2 Illinois plant as a general superintendent of 3 manufacturing. In 1965, I was transferred to the 4 Anniston, Alabama plant as plant manager. In 5 1977, I returned to the St. Louis area, assigned 6 as manager of environmental control, coordinating 7 the PCB issue. 8 Q. What year was that, sir? 9 A . 197 0. 10 In about 1971, '72, my job remained the 1 1 same, but the title was changed to manager, 12 environmental protection. 1973, my job was 13 expanded to include several other Monsanto 14 products, title changed to manager, product 15 acceptability. And I kept that title with 16 different product assignments until 1977, at which 17 time I was appointed director of environmental 18 operations for one of Monsanto's operating units 19 which at that time was the chemical intermediate 20 unit. 21 In 1982, I was appointed -- same title, 22 director of environmental operations for the 23 Monsanto industrial chemicals unit, and beginning 24 this year, 1986, I was appointed manager of 25 occupationa1 health for Monsanto Chemical Company, GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 10 WATER PCB-SD0000060908 1 an operating unit of Monsanto Company. 2 I think that brings us up to date. 3 Q . Okay, sir. 4 Now, as manager of environmental health, 5 what kinds of activities fall under your 6 supervision? 7 A. Occupational health? 8 I have the industrial health - 9 industrial hygiene, occupational medicine, and 1 0 epidemiology related to sites that are assigned to 1 1 the chemical company world wide. 12 Q. Who is your chief epidemiologist now? 13 A. Dr. William Gaffey. 14 Q. Who is head of your industrial hygiene 15 program? 16 A. The directed head is John Henshaw. 17 Q. And who heads up your occupational 18 medicine program? 19 A. Dr. George Roush, R-O-U-S-H. 20 Q. Earlier today I learned that there will 21 be a Dr. Emmett Kelly for a deposition today. Is 22 he in your organization? 23 A. Dr. Kelly is a retired employee. He is 24 Dr. Roush's predecessor. 25 MR. CARRINGTONi What is Hens haw's area? GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 11 WATER PCB-SD0000060909 1 - THE WITNESS: Industrial hygiene. 2 Q . Has Monsanto ever purchased PCBs from 3 any other manufacturer for resale? 4 A. Not to my knowledge. 5 Q. Is that something that has ever been 6 looked at, to your knowledge? 7 A. No. Not to my knowledge. 8 Q. Has Monsanto licensed the right to make 9 PCBs to anyone else other than this joint venture 10 you mentioned? 1 1 A. Not that I am aware of. 12 Q. Were the processes at these four plants 13 the same that made PCBs? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. Would you describe to me how you 16 manufactured PCBs? 1 7 A. We start with Benzene, which is a 18 petroleum product, and expose the Benzene to high 19 temperature pressure, thereby forming biphenyl 20 which is combination of two Benzenes. Biphenyl, 21 itself, at room temperature is -- to me looks like 22 candle wax. So it has to be heated to make it a 23 1iquid, which we do, and we then funnel chlorine 24 through the liquid. Chlorine then randomly affixes itself to the biphenyl, anywhere from one GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 12 WATER PCB-SD0000060910 1 chlorine -- well, zero chlorines to ten 2 chlorines. And the mixture Monsanto sold as 3 Aroclors, PCB mixture is just that, a mixture of 4 the various PCBs of which there are 210 possible. 5 Q. As I understand, even though there are 6 210 possible, some of those are quite unlikely? 7 A . True. 8 Q. Do you recall about how many likely PCBs 9 there are? 10 A . Well, there is -- commercial mixtures we 1 1 sold would generally go up to about eight 12 chlorines, and nine and ten are, to my knowledge, 13 not detected in those mixtures. 14 Q. What about side reactions in 15 manufacturing other than PCBs, make dibenzoturans 16 or other materials with the PCBs? 17 A. Those are possible. 18 Q. Were they made in your processes? 19 A. Not in our process. 20 Q. How did you control them? 21 A. Well, I don't know that we deliberately 22 controlled. Our process, which I didn't complete 23 describing, involves the addition of a 24 neutralizing material, because as you make the 25 PCBs, you also make acid. Our process involved GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 13 WATER PCB-SD0000060911 1 the addition o lime to neutralize the remaining 2 acid in the mixture. That mixture then was 3 distilled, and the recovered vapors which are 4 condensed is the finished product. That is the 5 Aroclor material. 6 I am under the understanding -- in fact, 7 I was told by researchers in Europe that the 8 European equivalent were found to contain 9 chlorinated furans. I am also aware their process 10 used caustic soda as the neutralizing agent which 1 1 is more reactive than lime. That is tire only 12 difference in the two processes I have been able 13 to determine. 14 Q. Do you think that is where the option 15 name is from, sodium hydroxide? 16 A . Yes. 17 Q. You did not find benzofurans in your 18 PCBs ? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. Do you know what the lower limit of 21 production was that has been looked at? 22 A. At that time, I just don't remember. 23 Q. Would it be in the parts per billion 24 range or parts per million? 25 A. Parts per billion. GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 14 WATER PCB-SD0000060912 1 - Q. Do you know if the Aroc1 ors that were 2 looked at for benzofurans were looked at from all 3 four of the manufacturing operations'? 4 A. I don't know about the Japanese 5 operation, but I know they were looked at for the 6 other three. 7 Q. When did the Anniston, Alabama plant 8 begin operation, about? 9 A . I understand it was about 1929. 10 Q And what about the Sauget, Illinois? 1 1 A . About nineteen thirty -- late thirties. 12 Q- And the UK operation? 13 A . As best I remember, that was in the 14 fifties. 15 Q . And Japan? 16 A . 1970 . 17 Q. I take it you didn't make them in Japan 18 too long? 19 A . That's correct. 20 Q. How long did that plant operate? 21 A . About a year. 22 Q. And the UK plant, do you know when it 23 ceased product ion? 24 A. About the same time as the U . S . , about 25 '77, sir. GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 15 WATER PCB-SD0000060913 1 - Q. And you say that is about the same time 2 the other two plants stopped? 3 A. The Anniston plant ceased operations in 4 1972 or three. And the Sauget, Illinois operation 5 was terminated in 1977. 6 Q. Do you know why you kept the Sauget, 7 Illinois plant going longer than the Anniston 8 plant? 9 A. It was the more modern ot the two units. 1 0 Q. What was the difference from a 1 1 modernization standpoint? 12 A. We had modern instruments, the equipment 13 is newer. It is expected to be less plagued with 14 maintenance problems, easier to control leaks and 15 the like because of that. That is all I can 16 remember at this moment. 17 Q. The Anniston plant, was it originally 18 built to make PCBs or was it a unit that made 19 something else you converted to make PCBs, do you 20 recall? 21 A. The Anniston plant, as I unders tand it, 22 was original1y in the metal additives busines s. 23 Swann Chemical Company is the owner operator. And 24 the PCB unit was added later. I don ' t know 25 whether they converted equipment or added new GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 16 WATER PCB-SD0000060914 1 equipment specifically designed to make PCBs. 2 Q. What about in Sauget? 3 A. Sauget unit was deliberately designed to 4 make PCBs, patterned after the Anniston unit. 5 Q. And I take it Newport, Wales, same 6 thing, it was deliberately built? 7 A. Yes . 8 Q. What were the differences in design 9 between Newport, Wales, and Sauget? 10 A. I don't think there was anything 1 1 dramatically different. I believe the size of the 12 equipment was varied; bigger tanks I believe were 13 necessary at Krummrich than the others because of 14 the anticipated capacity needs. 15 Q. But the proces s, itself, was the same? 16 A . The process was identica1. 17 Q. How many people were involved i n 18 manufacturing PCBs at the Anniston plant, give or 19 take? 20 A. The definition of involvement, it is a 21 matter of degree. 22 If we take it from the point where raw 23 material is received, the product is made, unit 24 maintained, the janitors that clean up to the 25 people that ship it out, I would say eighty to a GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 17 WATER PCB-SD0000060915 1 hundred. 2 Q How many total employees are in the 3 plant at Anniston,about? 4 A . At that time, about 350. 5 Q. How many of the employees were involved 6 in operating the unit, actually manufactured the 7 PCBs and then packaged the PCBs for shipping? 8 A . Fifty. 9 Q And then you would have maintenance 10 people? 11 A . Yes . 12 Q Were the maintenance people assigned to 1 3 that unit individually or were they floating from 14 unit to unit where they were needed? 15 A. They would service the whole plant, so 16 they would float from job to job. 1 7 Q. What about at Sauget, how many people 18 were involved in those operations? 19 A . About the same numbers. 20 Q Again, would maintenance people be 21 involved in other processes as well as PCBs? 22 A . Yes . 23 Q- Aroclor is Monsanto's trade name. Is 24 there any other trade name that Monsan to sold PCB 25 under that you are aware of? GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 1B WATER PCB-SD0000060916 1 A . Yes . 2 Q. What were the other trade names? 3 A. Therminol was one of them. 4 Q. Would you spell that for us, please? 5 A. T-H-E-R-M-I-N-O-L. 6 And in Europe, the same material was 7 sold under the trade name Santotherm, 8 S-A-N-T-O-T-H-E-R-M. These were PCBs used in heat, 9 transfer applications. 1 0 Santovac, S-A-N-T-O-V-A-C, were PCBs 1 1 used in vacuum pump service. 12 Q . What kinds of vacuum pumps are we 13 talking about? 14 A. Gee, I don't know how to describe. 15 These are pupms that are used to evacuate vessels, 16 to pull the area to create vacuums, sucks vapors 17 out of systems. 18 Q. All sizes of pumps or talking about 19 pumps that are carried around lo big ones that tit 20 on the back of trucks ? 21 A. All sizes, depending on the vendors as 22 to which size he would recommend to his 23 customers . 24 Other trade names that appear on our 25 products contain PCBs. Now, these are blends of GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI WATER PCB-SD0000060917 i PCBs with other materials. We had a series o1 2 hydraulic fluids under the trade name 3 P-Y -D-R-A--U-L, Pydraul. 4 Q Who were your customers for these 5 hydraulic fluids? 6 A . All types of industries that used 7 hydraulic systems in their operations; 8 particularly where fire hazards could exist such 9 as die casting industry. 1 0 Q. Mining operations? 1 1 A . Mining equipment, some of it used it. 12 yes. Some forklifts, some customers, air 13 compressors, even some elevators. 14 Q. What about automobiles? 1 S A . No . 16 Q Trucks, eighteen wheelers? 17 A . Not in the normal power system of the 18 truck. There are a few that had auxiliary 19 equipment attached to them like hoists and lifts, 20 some of them used hydraulics, but not too many. 21 Q. Any other trade name produc ts that were 22 sold? 23 A . Yes . We packaged mixtures with PCBs for 24 the dielectric industry, used trade names that 25 belonged to other companies on the labels and GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 20 WATER PCB-SD0000060918 1 shipped them from the plants. 2 Q. Who were those? 3 A. It was General Elec trie's Pyranol, 4 P-Y-R-A-N-O-L, and there were several of those. 5 And then Westinghouse ' s Inerteen I-N-E-R-T-E-E-N. 6 I can't think of any other trade names 7 at the moment. 8 Q. The private label stuff that you did for 9 GE and Westinghouse, is that the right 10 characterization, private label? 1 1 A. I have heard that expression used. I 12 don't know technically if it is the correct one or 13 not. 1 4 Q. You made it and put somebody else's name 15 on it. Your name, Monsanto, didn't appear on the 16 products that GE and Westinghouse sold? 1 7 A. It appeared as packaged by Monsanto. 18 Q. It said packaged by? 19 A. Yes, with Monsanto's logo. 20 Q. So if I picked up a can of Pyranol, it 21 would have GE on it? 22 A . No. 2 3 Q. I mean Monsanto on it? 24 A . Yes. 25 Q. Would it say GE on it or General GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 21 WATER PCB-SD0000060919 1 Electric? 2 A. No, it would say Pyranol number so and . 3 so. ; I 4 Q. What about Wes tinghouse, would their 5 Inerteen have Monsanto on it or Westinghouse on 6 it? 7 A. Monsanto on it. This is a material that 8 left Monsanto plants. 9 Q. How did it leave? How was it packaged 10 for Westinghouse and GE? 1 1 A. Several forms. It could be five gallon 12 pails, thirty-two gallon steel drums or fifty-five 13 gallon steel drums or by tank trucks or rail car, 14 tank rai1 car. 15 Q. Do you know if GE or Westinghouse 16 repackaged these materials and put their names on 17 them? 18 A. I am led to believe that some of that 19 did take place, yes. 20 Q. Were all of the PCB materials that 21 Monsanto sold in liquid form? 22 A. I unders tand there was a brief period 23 where we sold a PCB that was a solid. 24 Q. Do you know what its purpose was or how 25 it was made into a solid? GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 22 WATER PCB-SD0000060920 1 A . It was the fully chlorinated, the ten 2 chlorine version, which is a solid at that -3 under those conditions, and it was a very short 4 production run, and I understand it was sold as a 5 fire retardant additive for plastics. 6 Q. Do you know about what time period that 7 was? 8 A . It was in the middle i f ties . 9 Q. Where was it made? 1 0 A . Anniston, Alabama. 1 1 Q. Was it made in the same reactor as the 12 other PCBs or did you have to make a special 13 reactor and unit for that? 14 A . 11 was the same reactor. 15 Q. You weren't there when they made that 16 run, I guess, but do you happen to know what 17 changes in operating parameters were necessary in 18 order to make the ten chlorine unit -- ten 19 chlorine PCBs? 20 A. Well, the period of chlorination was 21 extended, introducing chlorine longer to make 22 certain it was fully chlorinated. The 23 temperatures had to be raised to keep it moltant. 24 And I understand, I am led from the records that I 2 5 read and all, that when they cooled it to make it GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 23 WATER PCB-SD0000060921 1 into its solid tor in so it could be shipped, they 2 had to use equipment that was used by another 3 product made at that plant, and they had to 4 control the dusting problem that was created by 5 this new material. Those are the changes that I 6 understand took place at that time. 7 Q. Do you know how much tempera ture 8 increase was necessary? 9 A. I don't remember. Something in the 10 order of a hundred degrees Fahrenheit difference. 1 1 Q. Was this a heat generated or supplied to 12 the reactor by steam or was it direct fired or do 13 you recal1? 14 A. This had to be direct fire. 15 Q. We are not talking about low 16 temperatures here? 17 A. That's right. 18 Q. Approximately what was the operating 19 temperature of the reactor when you were making 20 normal Aroclors? 21 A . About 500 degrees Fahrenheit. 22 Q. You could maintain 500 degrees 23 Fahrenheit and then just by varying the period of 24 chlorination, the length of time of chlorination, 25 you could make the various Aroclors? GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 24 WATER PCB-SD0000060922 1 - A. Yes. For the lower chlorinated -- when 2 I say 500, give or take a bit. Some ot it was 400 3 something approaching the 500. And we would puli, 4 when we distilled, we would pull a higher vacuum 5 for the higher boiling materials. 6 Q. Did you make your own chlorine at these 7 plants? 8 A. At one time, yes. 9 Q. Up until about when, would you recall? 10 A. At Anniston, I think we dismantled our 1 1 chlorine producing unit in 1968 or nine. We then 12 purchased chlorine. 13 At the -- I am not familiar with the 14 source of chlorine at Japan. At the other two 15 sites, it was a combination of chlorine produced 16 at the plant, supplemented by purchased chlorine. 1 7 Q. Did you use one process for making 18 chlorine? 19 A. I'm sorry? 20 Q. Did you use one process for making 21 chlorine? 22 A . Yes. 2 3 Q. Which one did you use? 24 A. This is the use of the Denora cell. I 25 don't know if you are familiar with it. It is GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 2b WATER PCB-SD0000060923 1 micro electrodes. 2 Q. I am most familiar with the Hooker 3 process, but I know of the Denora. 4 Have you had an opportunity in your work 5 to become familiar with how PCBs are utilized in 6 industry? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. In the electronics business, how are 9 PCBs utilized, to your knowledge? 10 A. Electronics or electrical? 1 1 Q . Start wi th elec tronics? 12 A. I am not familiar with the specifics, 13 but PCBs were used in some of the electronic 14 components as a plasticizing agent. 15 Q . Like in the coatings of capacitors or 16 boards or -- 17 A. Yes. The board concept. 18 Q. Would you consider a capacitor an 19 electronic component or electrical component? It 20 doesn't matter, let's talk about capacitors. 2 1 PCBs were used in capacitors? 22 A. Yes . 23 Q. How were they used in the capacitors, 24 what function did they play in the capacitor, do 25 you know? GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 26 WATER PCB-SD0000060924 1 . A. They helped insulate the Layers of foil, 2 which are separated by paper, and the additions of 3 the PCB enhanced insulating properties of that 4 paper. 5 Q. Do you know how the PCBs were introduced 6 in the components, in capacitor manufacturing? 7 A . Yes. 8 Q. How was that done? 9 A. The capacitors are fully assembled in 1 0 terms of the materials used to make them, the can, 1 1 the lid, the contents. There is a hole 12 deliberately left open in the top of the unit. 13 These are placed in baskets conveyed into chambers 14 about half the size of this room, and stacked in 15 that room. The chamber is closed, sealed, and 16 evacuated, all the air is removed from it, which, 17 in turn, sucks the air out of each of the 18 capacitor units. 19 The PCB, then, which is to impregnate 20 the capacitors, is introduced into that chamber. 21 The chamber is flooded, so that the PCB finds 22 itself, now, into the evacua ted can. And after 23 that step, the surplus PCB is pumped out of the 2 4 chamber, the chamber is opened and these units are 2 5 brought out into the open down the assembly line GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 27 WATER PCB-SD0000060925 1 at -which workers on the assembly line solder the 2 opening in the unit shut. 3 The units are then degreased, the 4 surplus PCB that is clinging to the outside 5 surfaces is removed and the small ones are ready 6 tor equipment shipment, testing and shipping . The 7 larger ones in the cases I saw were painted 8 through a spray chamber, were then ready for 9 sale. 10 Q. What other kinds of electronic 1 1 components, I guess, would PCBs be used for? 12 A. I don't know that -- all I know is that 13 the defense industry, Department of the Defense 14 with their contractors were involved with PCBs and 15 some of their equipment. I do not know the 16 details. I was not made privy to it. 17 Q. What about small transformers? 18 A. Small transformers? 19 Q. Right, like used in radios or? 20 A. I am not aware of PCBs used in that type 21 of transformer. 22 Q . What about in electrical equipment, how 23 were PCBs used? 24 A. 11 is used in addition to capacitors, it 25 is used in transformers, and it is also used or GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 28 WATER PCB-SD0000060926 1 was used in some o the electrical switching gear, 2 which turn high power off and on, and it was used 3 in some electromagnetic devices, such as those 4 large magnets that are used to move scrap steel 5 from one pile to another, they contained PCS type 6 fluids. 7 Q . Start with the transformers. Do you 3 know how PCB are used in transformers? 9 A. I think I do, yes. 1 0 Q. Ail right, sir. Can you explain for 11 us? 12 A. It is used in some transformers to help 13 conduct the heat that is generated within the unit 14 to the outer surfaces where it can be dissapated. 15 So it is really a heat transfer system, 16 internally. 17 I don't know what else to add to that. 18 Q. Do you know if PCBs are used in any of 19 the components of the transformers? 20 A. Not to my knowledge. 21 Q. What about in the electrical switch 22 gear, how would the PCBs be used in the electrical 23 switch gear? 24 A . Again, as a heat dissipating device. 25 Q. Sould it be used in these push buttons, GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 29 WATER PCB-SD0000060927 1 also? 2 A. I have personally not seen any push 3 button with PCB containing units. 4 Q. You mentioned one ot the products you 5 used as a heat transfer medium, PCBs are used in 6 the heat transfer medium. What are some of the 7 uses of the heat transfer medium? 8 A. For example, they are used to cook 9 varnishes, and to avoid the use of an open flame 10 under the varnish pots, the heating of the PCB 1 1 would occur in one room, the hot PCB would be 12 transferred to the varnish pot, transfer -- the 13 heat would transfer to the varnish, and the cool 14 PCB would return back to the fired unit to be 15 reheated, and that is the heat -- a typical heat 16 transfer system. 17 Q. Have you ever seen that product used for 18 ethylene oxide units? 19 A. No. 11 is widely used throughout many 20 industries in those cases where flammable 21 materials are pres ent and must be heated. And 22 avoiding direct contact of the heat source to the 23 flammable material. 24 Q. Is that use of PCBs still ongoing? 25 A . Yes. GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 30 WATER PCB-SD0000060928 1 I ' in sorry, not with PCBs. 2 Q . Are there any uses of PCBs ongoing right 3 now that your aware of? 4 A. The only one I am aware of are the 5 permitted use in transformers and capacitors that 6 are in place, not new ones. 7 Q. Do you know if anyone has used PCBs for 8 encapsulization for other applications, 9 encapsulated PCBs in a material to be used in 10 other types of operations? 11 A. Yes . 12 Q. What kinds of encapsulation processes 13 are you familiar with? 14 A. The only one 1 am familiar with were the 15 carbonless copy paper application, which I think 16 is encapsulated, and the encapsulation included 17 PCBs as a co-solvent. 18 Q . Has the electrical industry or 19 electronics industry used encapsulation in any of 20 their components that you are aware of? 21 A . I don't know. 22 Q. Do you know if any other companies 23 marketed PCBs in the United States ? 24 A. I received reports at one point in time 25 that there were some companies involved in the GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 31 WATER PCB-SD0000060929 1 sale of PCBs. That is as far as I got with my 2 information. 3 Q. Do you recall what those reports said, 4 who it was and where it was and what it was for? 5 A. Well, it was relating to our withdrawal 6 from the heat transfer application, and I got 7 reports from the -- I believe it was the U.S. 8 Geodetic -- one of the government industries, I 9 think it was U.S. Geodetic Survey, that had 1 0 something to do with the offshore drilling rigs, 1 1 that indicated that the drilling rig operators 12 were obtaining replacement PCBs from other 13 companies after we had withdrawn. 1 4 The reports I got at the time were 15 Coastal Chemical and Geneva Chemical. 16 Q. Are those foreign operations? 17 A. I don't know. 18 Q. Was Monsanto the only domestic 19 manufacturer of PCBs, U.S. manufacturer? 20 A . To my knowledge, yes. 21 Q. Do you know if GE or Westinghouse 22 obtained any of their PCBs from any foreign 23 manufacturers? 24 A. I do not know. 25 o,, What about the other chemical GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 32 WATER PCB-SD0000060930 1 m an ufacturers excuse me, not chemical 2 manufacturers, but electrical equipment 3 manufacturers, do you know if they bought any 4 foreign PCB? 5 A. I do not know. 6 Q. Have you ever seen any figures on 7 imports of PCB materials into this country? 8 A. I recall some figures that were obtained 9 from the Department of Commerce in about 1972 or 4 10 thereabouts. Prior to that, there were no figures 1 1 available to any government agency, that I could 12 determine. 13 Q. What did you find in '72 or '73? 14 A . I forget the exact numbers. As 15 recall, they were primarily associated with PCBs 16 present in equipment and apparatus, rather than 1 7 PCBs shipped in containers. I have forgotten the 18 numbers. 19 Q. The florescent lighting fixtures, I 20 understand they have something called a ballast in 21 them and this had PCBs in it, is that your 22 understanding? 23 A. Some of them do. 24 Q. Do you know how you can determine which 25 ones do and which ones don't? GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI WATER PCB-SD0000060931 1 . A. My layman's approach is the single tube 2 florescent fixture does not have a ballast which 3 contains PCBs. Multiple tubes are very likely to 4 contain some PCB. 5 Q . Does it make any difference if it has 6 one of these little tin can starter units? 7 A. Yes, that is the single unit. That does 8 not have PCBs. 9 Q. So if it has the little screw-in tin 10 can, then you know your unit doesn't have PCBs in 1 1 it? 12 A. That is my understanding, yes. 13 Q. If it has one of these black boxes in it 14 that is two or three inches tall and two or three 15 inches wide and six to ten inches wide, that is 16 where the PCBs would be? 17 A . Yes. 18 Q. I call it a ballast. Do you know what 19 it really is? 20 A. Again, I am not an electrical engineer, 21 but I understand that is a combination of a little 22 trans former and a capacitor. Together they 23 opera te to give the right charge of electricity to 24 start the glowing of the tube. 25 Q. Do you know how the PCBs were used in GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 34 WATER PCB-SD0000060932 1 these ballasts of florescent lights? 2 A. I understand it was in the capacitor 3 port ion. 4 Q. My experience has been that sometimes 5 these things have a kind of a gooey material that 6 comes out of them. Is that where the PCBs are? 7 A. Some of that is PCBs, but the amount of 8 PCBs is very low, an ounce or so. It is my 9 understanding it is not very great. 10 Q. An ounce or so of the entire ballast 1 1 weight would be PCBs? 12 A . Yes. 13 Q. When one buys Aroclor, I understand it 14 comes with different numbers after, it is Aroclor 15 something or another, and as I recall from reading 16 the last two digits tell you the percent of 17 chlorination? 18 A . Yes. 19 Q. Is that a range? In other words, if I 20 buy Aroclor 1260, does that mean it is about sixty 21 percent chlorinated? 22 A. I would word it a little differently. 23 Q . Tell me what it means ? 24 A. I would say of that total weight of 25 Aroclor 1260, 6 0 percent by weight is chlorine. GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 35 WATER PCB-SD0000060933 1 Q. Is there a cut-off? I mean, the 2 difference between Arochlor 1240 and Aroclor 1260, 3 would there be a range in there, 1240 is thirty to 4 fifty and 1260 is fifty to seventy? 5 A. That is a range, but it is not that 6 wide. The specification calls for fairly narrow 7 range. So when you see 1260, it is sixty-nine 8 point something to sixty point something. So it 9 is not too great a range in terms of total 10 chlorine. 1 1 Q. Chemically, is there much variation 12 between 1260 that is made today and 1260 that is 13 made a year later? 14 A . No. 11 is pretty cons is tent. 15 Q. If you dipped into some 1260 and got 16 some of it, what chemicals would you expect to 17 find there? I mean, are all of the PCBs sixty 18 percent chlorinated or is it a mixture? 19 A. It is a mixture. 20 Q. Tell me how that mixture varies? 21 A. I would expect to find in a 1260 the 22 single chlorinated type, the two chlorine, three 23 chlorine, four, five, six, seven, eight, but the 24 amount of the five, six, seven and eight would be 25 greater, higher than I would find in, say, the GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 36 WATER PCB-SD0000060934 1 Aroclor 1242 version. 2 Q. So it is a distribution of: these 3 different chemicals and it is sort of the average 4 or the most of the chemicals located that 5 determines what the Aroclor is? 6 I may not have said that very 7 eloquently. 8 A. Yes, that points out the differences in 9 these mixtures. 1 0 Q. Would -- if you took one of the lower 1 1 chlorinated weights of Aroclors and compared it to 12 one of the higher chlorinated Aroclors, some 13 disappear? 1 4 A. Yes. They lower chlorinated would be 15 highly unlikely to contain the seven and eight 16 chlorine; whereas the higher chlorinated would be 17 less likely to contain very much of these single 18 and double two chlorine. So there is a shift that 19 takes place. But there is an overlap of the two 20 mixtures. 21 Q. What would be the lowest chlorinated 22 Aroclor that you would sell? 23 A . We had an Aroclor 12 2 1. 24 Q. in 1221, would you expect there would be 25 some eight chlorine bipheny1s or just none at all? GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 37 WATER PCB-SD0000060935 1 A . None at all o that low chlorine. 2 Q What about on the other end of the 3 spectrum. you said you made some o E the ten 4 chlorine vers ions, did that have an Aroc 1 or 5 number? 6 A . Yes. It was Aroclor 1272, sir. That 7 was seventy-two percent is the maximum. 8 Q . And at 127 2 or -- what would be the next 9 one down that you more commonly made than that? 1 0 A. Commonly made would be 1260. 1 1 Q. The 1260 material, would you expect to 12 find some one and two chlorine biphenyls in that? 13 A. A little bit would be detected. 14 Q. What was the, I guess, the best seller 15 over the years? 16 A. Best seller? I believe Aroclor 1242. 17 Q . And what was 124 2 ' s primary use? 18 A. I don't know that 1 recall its primary 19 use. It was widely used in capacitors and in some 20 transformers, in some coatings. It was used in 21 the carbonless copy paper application, which was a 22 large user when it was fully developed. It was 23 used in heat trans fer fluids and in the vac uum 24 pumps. So it covered just about all the uses. 25 Q. What was the largest seller that was GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 38 WATER PCB-SD0000060936 1 s o 1-d as Pyranols? 2 A. That 1 don't know. I don't remember the 3 different Pyranol numbers. 4 Q. Same thing for InerteenV 5 A. Correct. 6 Q. You mentioned coatings. I don't think 7 we have talked about coatings, yet. How were PC B s 8 used in coatings? 9 A. Paints and varnishes is what I had in 1 0 mind when I talked about coatings. Specialty 1 1 paints contained some PCBs to give them long 12 wearing properties, like the traffic lanes that 13 are painted on highways, or paints that were 14 exposed to high temperatures, it could resist heat 15 a little better, or ship hulls, boat hulls. 16 Q. Were the PCBs ever used for any -- well, 17 there is a term and it has gone from my mind, used 18 -- these marine paints that have had in the past 19 mercurials and other kinds of materials on them to 20 keep the barnacles from growing on the ships, did 21 it have any use -- and there is a name for that 22 that I can't remember -- 23 A. I unders tand PCBs did give the coating a 24 property that would reduce the formation of 25 barnacles. GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 39 WATER PCB-SD0000060937 1 - Q. Do you know who had the patent or the 2 license for the carbonless paper in PCBs? 3 A . NCR. 4 Q. Did they develop that process, NCR? 5 A . Yes . 6 Q. Did Monsanto have any involvement in 7 developing that process'? 8 A . No . 9 Q. Do you know how they came about using 1 0 PCBs in the carbonless paper process? 1 1 A. I'm sorry? 12 Q. Do you know how NCR came about using PCB 13 in their carbonless paper process? 14 A. No, I don't. 15 Q . What time period has the epidemiological 16 program at Monsanto been under your supervision? 17 A. I wouldn't say that it has ever been 18 under my supervision. 19 Q. I'm sorry, I thought a while ago when 20 you were telling me you were the manager ox 21 director, that epidemiology came under your 22 auspices? 23 A. I relate to it, I use Dr. Gaffey as my 24 in-house consultant, and I interface with the 25 plants that provide the data that Dr. Gaffey uses GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 40 WATER PCB-SD0000060938 1 in his studies. 2 Q. About how long have you been doing in 3 that? 4 A. Ever since I was appointed a director ot 5 environmental operations, which was about 1977. 6 Q. Was Dr. Gaffey here when you got that 7 appointment or did he come shortly after? 8 A. He came shortly after that. I don't 9 recall what year. 10 Q. And Judith Zack was doing that work 1 1 before Dr. Gaffey? 12 A . Yes . 13 Q. How long had Judy Zack been doing that 1 4 work? Was she there when you came or got into 15 thisposition? | j i I | 16 A. Yes. She was active at the time. A 17 couple of years, as best I recall. 18 Q. Do you know if anybody preceded Judy 19 Zack as an epidemiologist or was she Monsanto's 20 first? 21 A. I would say she was Monsanto's first . 22 Q. Did she and Dr. Gaffey work together 23 any? 24 A. I believe there was a brief period when 2 5 their careers overlapped, yes, but I don't ' i i i GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 41 WATER PCB-SD0000060939 1 remember the specitics. 2 Q . Did Judy Zack have a P h . D ? 3 A . I don't know, 4 Q . When Dr. Gaffey and Judy Zack 5 overlapped, who was on top of the overlapping, who 6 reported to who? 7 A. It is my understanding Dr. Gaffey was 8 the head of the department, so -9 Q. So he was hired in over Judy Zack? 1 0 A. Yes . 1 1 Q. You mentioned a while ago that one of 12 your duties was to coordinate with the plants to 13 get data for epidemiology. Have you been involved 14 in estimating or obtaining exposure data in 15 epidemiological studies involving PCBs? 16 A. Not directly, no. 17 Q. Has it been done? Not to my knowledge. 18 Q. I take it you have some familiarity with 19 epidemiological studies? 20 A. A little bit, yes. 21 Q. It is done in a way that exposure 22 indices are determined, either through actual 23 monitoring or through es timations made by 24 industrial hygienists or others as to exposure, 25 are you familiar with that? GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 42 WATER PCB-SD0000060940 1 A. Yes . 2 Q Has that ever been done for any ot the 3 employees who manufactured or worked in these PCB 4 plants ? 5 A. I don't know the depth to which it was 6 done, but something in the way of such a study has 7 been done. But I don't know if the distinction 8 has been any more refined than they worked in that 9 unit or not. 10 Q. I take it from your earlier discussions 1 1 here today that you have visited these plants 12 where PCBs were made? 13 A . Oh, yes. 14 Q. Which plant would you say would have the 15 higher exposure? 16 MR. HALL: Would you read that question? 17 (The requested portion of the record 18 read by the reporter). 19 MR. HALL: Do you unders tand that 20 question ? 21 A. I don't know that I understand it 22 totally. 23 At what point in time I guess is my 24 di1emma. 25 Q. Well, obviously -- CORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 43 WATER PCB-SD0000060941 1 - A. When I visited them? 2 Q. Yes. 1 want to ask you about your 3 knowledge, first of all, when you saw these 4 plants. You told me workers there would have 5 greater exposure than the ones at Sauget? 6 MS. OLIVER! I object, toundation, as tar 7 as it calls tor some kind of scientific conclusion 8 that Mr. Papageorge may not be able to give us. 9 MR. HOBSON: If he can't give me, he 10 can ' t give me. 11 A. The potential tor exposure was, to some 1 2 degree, greater at the older unit; however, the 13 use of protective equipment helped overcome or 1 4 prevent exposure. So when I look at the worker, 15 per se, I would say that exposure was equivalent, 16 practically nil. 17 Q. Whatever exposure, it any, you think, 18 then, based on your understanding of what is going 19 on out there, that the employees at each of these 20 plants would have been equally exposed, it exposed 21 at all? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. What about over time, can you tell me it 24 based on your experience and knowledge, if you 25 have any experience and knowledge, would exposures GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 44 WATER PCB-SD0000060942 1 have been greater in, say, the 1930s when these 2 plants were operating or would they have been 3 greater in the '40s or '50s or would it go the 4 other way? 5 MS. OLIVER: Same objection as to lack ot 6 foundation. 7 A. My understanding is that the thirties, 8 there were some incidences that led to an 9 acquiring ot some information that helped us 10 understand what PCBs would do to skin and to 1 1 respiratory systems, which supported what the 12 animal studies had previously told us. So from 13 those experiences in the thirties, led to the use 14 of respirators when vapors were available or j i 15 present, the use of gloves, instead ot bare hands, 16 and the washing of work clothes, removal of 17 contaminated work clothes. So the early thirties i 18 were a learning experience, and later on, I am not 19 aware of any unusual situation, other than the 20 dusting that occurred when we made that special 21 material which was something new that they had to 22 learn how to cope with. 23 Q. What kinds of respirators were being 24 used at the plant, do you know? 25 A. I don't remember the makes and models. GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 45 WATER PCB-SD0000060943 1 It.is the halt face organic vapor type. 2 Q. Half face dual cartridge air purifying i 3 res pirator? 4 A . Yes . 5 Q. And used organic cartridges? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. Do you know if the organic vapor 8 cartridges were verified for effectiveness against 9 PCB s ? 10 A . No, I don't. 11 Q. What kind of gloves were they using? 1 2 A. Well, again I don't remember the 13 specifics, but they were a black rubber like 14 material. 15 Q. You don't know which particular material 16 they were made from? 17 A. I don't remember. At one time I did, 18 but I don't remember. 19 Q. When did - 20 MR. HALL: Were you through? 21 Q. I'm sorry, I didn't mean to interrupt 22 you. 23 A. I do remember there was no material that 24 was effective for long, so we had to buy many new 25 gloves, just keep throwing them away and getting GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 46 WATER PCB-SD0000060944 1 new ones. 2 Q . I was going to ask you about the - - how 3 readily penetrated the gloves were by the PCBs? 4 A. Well, they would swell before they would 5 penetrate to the point where they weren't 6 useable. So that was the indicator, throw them 7 away and get new once. 8 Q. Do you know if any studies have been 9 conducted about the ability of PCBs to penetrate 10 different glove materials? 1 1 A. I am not aware of any. 12 Q. When did you say the respirators and 13 gloves were regularly begun to be used in the 14 manufacturing facilities? Is that the thirties? 15 A. No. They were, of course, in place in 16 the sixties when I was involved, and the best I 17 can recall, in the fifties they were introduced. 18 Q. So at least by the fifties you all were 19 aware in your manufacturing facilities that 20 respirators or gloves and protective equipment 2 1 were necessary? 22 A . Yes, plus clothing. 23 Q. The clothing that the workers wore, was 24 it provided by Monsanto? 25 A. Yes. GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 47 WATER PCB-SD0000060945 1 Q. Was it thrown away or was it laundered? 2 A . Laundered. 3 Q. Do you know if it mattered whether it 4 was laundered with soap and water or whether it 5 had to be drycleaned? 6 A . I don't remember. 7 Q. In telling me what you did earlier, I 8 didn't recall that you said anything about y toxicology. Do you have any input or interface 10 with toxicology? 11 A. The interface is one where I am aware of 12 the results of their studies, and apply them 13 through the industrial hygienist to the 1 4 workplace 15 Q I think one of the jobs you told me 16 about was product acceptability? 17 A . Yes. 18 Q. Did that involve evaluation of products 19 for the toxilogical properties? 20 A . Yes. At that time, I had a direct 2 1 interface with the toxicologist. 22 Q Does Monsanto practice what I would term 23 tier testing? Have you ever heard that 2 4 terminology? 25 A. yes . GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 40 WATER PCB-SD0000060946 1 Q. Do you do that? 2 A . Yes. 3 Q. Can you describe to me your tier testing 4 program? 5 A. It varies from product to product; but 6 the sequence is one of starting off with what is 7 commonly referred to as acute toxicity testing, 8 which involves inhalation, skin, exposures to 9 determine, in a relative fashion, the toxicity of 1 0 that new material or that product. This is 11 normally followed to the next tier in a thirty day 12 study. It might be a feeding study or an 13 inhalation study or skin absorption, depending on 14 what is perceived to be the most apt problem of 15 exposure to humans. 16 The next step would be a subchronic 17 series of, say, ninety-day study. And finally, 18 there would be a lifetime study with laboratory 19 animals which is about two years. And depending 20 on the product, there would be some, what I would 21 refer to as special s tudies, mutagenicity, 22 reproduction, teratogenicity, depending on the 23 toxicologis t's opinion a s to how it might resemble 24 a known material that any suspicions that he may 25 have as to what might happen. GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 49 WATER PCB-SD0000060947 1- The intent is to conduct the studies in 2 a sequential fashion so the results of a study 3 helped plan the next study, what direction the 4 total program should be headed. That is iny 5 exposure to tier study at Monsanto. 6 Q . Can you tell me, in general, what 7 triggers each tier? In other words, when you 8 would begin the first tier, and what would trigger 9 the second tier and the third tier, and so on? 10 A. Well, within Monsanto, we have a 1 1 procedure that follows a development of a pi'oduct 12 through the laboratory, through research. Before 13 our researchers can send samples of a new product 14 to potential customers for evaluation, the first 15 tier of studies must be completed, and we pass tire 16 findings of those studies on to the person 17 receiving the sample. 18 And we also need that information for 19 shipping those samples, putting the proper laberLs 20 on them. If there is any promise to that product, 2 1 as indicated by the customer or potential 22 customer's reaction, we then embark on the second 23 set, the ninety-day s tudies . Depending on the 24 results of those ninety-day studies, and the 25 professional opinion of the toxicologis t, we may GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 50 WATER PCB-SD0000060948 1 app-rove the production in limited quanities of 2 that product shipped to known customers. On the 3 other hand, i there is some adverse findings we 4 proceed, then, with the two year studies. 5 Final approval for marketing a product 6 must wait until all studies are completed and the 7 results evaluated. So it is tied in with the 8 progress that a product makes from the laboratory 9 bench to the production unit. 10 Q. Can you tell me approximately when 11 Monsanto began their tier testing approach? 12 A. I don't personally know of a specific 13 date. Some products had tier testing from back in 14 the '40s and '50s. it became a -- I guess a 15 standard approach in the middle '70s, as best I 16 recall. 17 Q. Are you familiar with the term called 18 product shepherdizing? 19 A. No. 20 MR. HALL: Could we take a brief break 21 here? 22 MR. HOBSON: Yes . 23 (Reces s . ) 24 BY MR. HOBSON : 25 Q. Mr. Papageorge, I think when we took our GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 51 WATER PCB-SD0000060949 1 break, I was asking you about shepherdizing 2 programs, and I think you said you didn't | 3 recognize that term. What I have in mind is are 4 you familiar with any procedures whereby 5 manufacturer of a product will retain control over 6 how that product is used or handled after its 7 sale? 8 Classic example that you might or might 9 not know about is Ethyl Corporation where they 1 0 sold Tricepdid (sic.) for years and years, and you 1 1 mentioned you worked with Philips, Ethyl specified 12 the design of the lead handling facilities and 13 retained to right to come in and inspect them and 14 train employees, does that strike a - 15 A. I am aware of the Ethyl program. I am 16 not aware of similar programs. 17 Q. I was going to ask you whether Monsanto 18 had any similar programs for any of their 19 products? 20 A. No. Not that I know of. 21 Q. Do you know whether anybody besides 22 Ethyl had those kinds of programs? 23 A. No, I do not. 24 Q. Do you have any input to the reports of 25 studies that are conducted by Monsanto, for GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 52 WATER PCB-SD0000060950 1 instance, epidemiological studies, would those 2 studies come to your desk for your comment and 3 review before they are released or published? 4 A . Not normally. 5 Q. Do you know if Monsanto has ever had any 6 business dealings with a company called 7 Resea rch-Cottrell? 8 A. I am aware ot Research-Cottrell, and I 9 am also aware that our engineering people have had 10 contacts with Research-Cottrell people, but I do 1 1 not know the specifics. 12 Q. But I want to limit my questions right 13 now to PCBs. Do you know if any work with 1 4 Research-Cottrell with PCBs has ever been done, 15 sold them for any product for use in their product 16 or anything like that? 17 A. I don't remember. 18 Q. Who would be a more likely person to ask 19 that question to than you, if you know of anybody 20 at Monsanto that could tell us about the business 21 dealings of Monsanto and Research-Cottrell? 22 A . Someone at the marketing sales 23 organization at the point in time for which you 24 want to question. It would be a marketing 25 person. GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 53 WATER PCB-SD0000060951 1 - Q. I take it that your job has given you 2 the opportunity to become somewhat familiar with 3 the medical and scientific literature that 4 surrounds PCBs and their use; is that correct? 5 A. Yes . 6 Q. When, in the medical and scientific 7 literature, published literature, could you go and 8 find mention of potential for some kind of health 9 hazard associated with PCBs? 10 MR. HALL: Would you read that back for 11 me? 12 A. I am confused by the word when. 13 Q. About what year? 14 A. You mean the report was published? 15 Q . Yes, sir. 16 A. This is the literature available to the 17 general public? 18 Q. Right. Well, general public, scientific 19 people. If you had a medical doctor or industrial 20 hygienist that wanted to go find out something 21 about a product? 22 A . The earliest I recall was, and I have 23 forgotten the formal title, it is a hygienic 24 review that reported acute s tudies that were 25 conducted, the results of these studies, and GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 54 WATER PCB-SD0000060952 1 recommended an exposure level in the workplace. I 2 think it is the American Hygienic -- the name 3 escapes me, but I recall a pamphlet or bulletin 4 that was available in the 1950s. 5 Q. .American Conference of Industrial 6 Hygienists? 7 A. That is another group that picked up 8 these values, but it seems to me there was another 9 study that preceded that. 10 Q. But mid '50s? 1 1 A. They are related. 12 In the '50s. 13 Q. So at least from the '50s, some 1 4 precautions, at least potentially, ought to be 15 associated with PCBs? 16 MR. SULLIVAN: I am going to object to 17 the form of the question because I don't think the 18 question specifies precautions as to whom. I 19 don't think there has been any clarification as to 20 who this type of knowledge can be imputed to. So 21 I think the question is clearly overly broad. 22 Q . If you can, answer, Mr. Papageorge ? 23 A . I remember you said in the '50s some 24 precautions. There were precautions existing 25 prior to that on labels. GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 55 WATER PCB-SD0000060953 1 - Q. All right. Let's talk about that, 2 then . What precautions on what labels were you j 3 referring to? 4 A. Monsanto's products which contained 5 PCBs, on their labels had precautionary statements 6 referring to breathing of vapors and exposure to 7 skin. 8 Q. When were those incorporated on the 9 labels, approximately? 1 0 A. Starting almost from the beginning. The 11 ' 30s , ' 40s . 12 Q. What would those labels have been put on 1 3 to? 14 A. They were put on the smaller packages as 15 distinguished from the trucks and tank cars. And 16 they were also included in the trade literature 17 and brochures that were published off and on by 18 Monsanto. 19 Q. What were the uses of these brochures 20 and items that you have just discussed? I don't 21 understand- what you mean by that. 22 A. They were publications that describe the 23 products, describe known applications of those 24 products, and also in some instances, suggested 25 other applications that hadn't been fully __________________________ GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 56 WATER PCB-SD0000060954 1 developed, but appeared to be promising, so they 2 were both describing known situations and 3 suggesting further uses. It is sort of 4 advertising literature for the product lines. And 5 in there, each of these, there is a section on 6 safety and health, and describes precautions to be 7 taken. 8 Q. I think in response to one of my earlier 9 questions you told me about, or at least in my 1 0 mind I think you told me about some observations 1 1 that Monsanto made in its manufacturing facilities 12 early on about some problems that led to the use 13 of gloves and respirators and clothing. 14 Are these the dermatological problems 15 that you are talking about? 16 A. Yes, determine a logical was some of the 17 -- the reddening of the hands and so on was noted. 18 Q. And chloracne problems? 19 A. Chloracne didn't appear until we made 20 that one special run of that 1272 type. But 21 chloracne was suspected because of that kind of 22 chemical. Chlorinated hydrocarbons have that 23 repu ta tion. 24 Q. The labeling that you had on your 25 product in the '30s and '40s, would it address GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 57 WATER PCB-SD0000060955 1 those kinds of hazards? 2 A. It addressed skin and respiratory j 3 problems, yes. 4 Q. Tell me about the respiratory problems. 5 What did it address from the way of respiratory 6 problems ? 7 A. I forget the exact words, but it 8 cautioned do not inhale vapors or avoid inhaling 9 vapors. I forget the exact words. 10 Q. Do you know why that precaution dealing 11 with respiratory hazards were on the products? In 12 other words, what outcome were you guarding 13 against with that kind of information? 1 4 A. We were guarding against irritation. It 15 is even more than that. The severe harm to a 16 respiratory system that I have been told 17 represents a severe cold, a sore throat, irritated 18 nostrils, pain in the chest that comes from 19 exposure to these kinds of materials. 20 Q. Exposure via the respiratory route? 21 A. Yes . 22 Q. So skin exposure, wearing gloves and 23 that sort of thing was directed more at the red 24 hands and respiratory hazards, the cold like 25 symptoms you were trying to prevent; is that GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 58 WATER PCB-SD0000060956 1 right? 2 A . Yes. 3 Q . Were the respiratory symptoms and the 4 dermatological problems something that you could 5 find in the medical and scientific literature in 6 the '50s? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. Was that literature published in the 9 United States, to your knowledge? 1 0 A. The only one I can address is the 11 article I tried to describe earlier where they did 12 end up with a recommended exposure level. As I 13 recall, there was a summary of these kinds of 14 effects in that brochure, or that pamphlet. 15 Q. And that would have been in the '50s? 16 A . Yes. 17 Q. When did your career at Monsanto get 18 involved with health effects of PCBs as a part of 19 your regular job, and if 1 didn't ask that very 20 well, I will maybe come at it this way: I think 21 you said in 1970 that your job changed to an 22 environmenta1 -- I think you said you got more 23 involved or got involved with the PCB issue, it I 24 remember your response. 25 A. Yes . GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 59 WATER PCB-SD0000060957 1 Q . Is that when it was, 1970 that this took 2 more of your time? 3 A . Yes . 4 Q. What precipitated you finding that job 5 or that job finding you or do you know'? 6 A. In the late '60s, laboratories 7 throughout the world, in looking for DDTs, found 8 evidence that PCBs were present in samples. And 9 Monsanto became aware of that, started some early 10 investigations. So by late 1969, Monsanto was 1 1 concerned that these PCBs, which are man made, 12 which was one of our products, were being found in 13 samples that -- that, to Monsanto, were 1 4 surprising. And it did effect many of our 15 products, and it involved, within Monsanto at that 16 time, two business groups, and that is when they 17 felt that they needed someone to help coordinate 18 the flow of information from the outside and 19 within Monsanto regarding PCBs. That is when the 20 job was created. Then I was asked to help. 21 Q. Which two business groups were these 22 that were involved? 23 A. At that time, they were called the 24 group and the other I remember was 25 the functional fluids group. GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 60 WATER PCB-SD0000060958 1 - Q. I don't recall that we talked much about 2 the plasticizer application of PCBs. Can you tell 3 me something about that? 4 A. I think a more descriptive words, at 5 least it helps me, is called miscellaneous uses. 6 These are the applications that we talked earlier 7 about, paints and varnishes, plasticizing of 8 plastics, making them more flexible, wire coatings 9 or other plastic articles, the carbonless copy 1 0 paper, all of those uses which the PCBs were 1 1 incorporated with other chemicals in a finished 12 product as distinguished from the fluid existing 13 and maintaining that identity as a PCB and heat 14 transfer fluid or hydraulic fluid or dielectric 15 fluid, which were the functional fluids group. 16 Q. These miscellaneous applications, 1 7 coatings and carbonless paper, when PCBs are used 18 in those, if you need to break it down for me, 19 please do so, are the PCBs reacted with the other 20 materials that make up the system or do they 21 continue to exist identifiably and chemically? 22 A. In most cases, they maintain their 23 identity. They do not react chemically. 24 Q. And I gues s in a way, that is one of the 25 problems with PCBs, they don ' t react chemically GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 61 WATER PCB-SD0000060959 1 and that is why they are persistent in the 2 environment? 3 A . Yes. 4 Q. Do E'CBs exist naturally in the 5 environment? 6 A . Not that I am aware of. 7 Q So when we say PCB, they are man made ? a A . That is my understanding. 9 Q. When do you recall , if you recall , the 10 potential discussion of the potential of PCBs to 11 cause cancer, either in animals or man or through 12 some test system fall into this story about PCBs? 13 A. The first report that I was aware of 14 which related cancer to PCB was a report of a 15 study conducted by Dr. Kembro, Renata Kembro, in 16 which she reported that the animals she tested 17 showed cancerous livers. That is, as best I 18 recall, the first association of cancer and PCBs. 19 Q. Do you recall about when that was ? 20 A . Yes. About 19 7 4. 21 Q. That would be after you took this 22 coordinating job that you told me about between 23 the two divisions? 24 A . Yes. 25 Q. Who is Dr. Kembro? GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 62 WATER PCB-SD0000060960 1 - A. She, at the time, was a member ot the 2 Center for Disease Control in Atlanta, Georgia. 3 No, let me correct that. 4 I believe when she started the study, 5 she was a member of the Food and Drug 6 Administration located in Atlanta. Later she 7 joined or was a member of the Center for Disease 8 Control. 9 Q. Do you know what products she tested? 10 A. Yes . 1 1 Q . Which one was that ? 12 A. Aroclor 1260. 13 Q. Did it prove out to be she, indeed, had 1 4 liver cancer in her animals? 15 A. I don't know that any proof was 16 definately established. There was a disagreement 17 between toxicologists. I don't know it was ever 18 res olved. 19 Q. Some folks said it was cancerous and 20 some said it was a non-cancerous tumor? 21 A. That's right. 2 2 Q. What is the state of the knowledge 23 today, as you know, about the cancer potential tor 24 PCBs, and if you need to break that out for man, 25 animals or test systems, feel free? GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 63 WATER PCB-SD0000060961 1 MR. SULLIVAN: I am going Lo object to 2 the form of the question in there are obviously 1 3 fifteen forms of cancer, and I think the question 4 is ambiguous, at best, with respect to what you 5 are asking of the witness. 6 MS. OLIVER; I am also going to object on 7 the grounds that that asks for a medical opinion 8 to have any real usefulness in a case like this, 9 and Mr. Papageorge can't give us that opinion. 1 0 Q . You can still answer, if you can, Mr. 11 Papageorge. 12 A. I am aware of a study conducted by the 13 National Cancer Institute with Aroclor 1254 in 1 4 which they found no evidence of cancer. 15 Q. Is that animal study? 16 A. Animal s t udy. 1 7 MR. SULLIVAN; You said what? I'm sorry? 18 A. Aroclor 1254 was studied by the National 19 Cancer Institute and found no evidence of cancer, 20 lifetime study of rats. 21 I have not seen, personally, any 22 scientific report that associates cancer with 23 humans and PCBs. 24 Q. Do you know if it has been tested - 25 PCBs have been tested by the screening system GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 64 WATER PCB-SD0000060962 1 sister chromatid exchange? 2 A. I am aware only those studies were 3 conducted, but I don't know the results. ; iI 4 Q. Do you know what Monsanto's position is 5 about the carcinogenicity of PCBs today? 6 A . Yes . 7 Q. Can you tell us what that is? ji j B A. It is not a human carcinogen, and it is 9 not even a suspect animal carcinogen. 10 Q. Did you have anything to do with the 1 1 testing of -- in the PCBs by stream bounds test, 12 biotest? :I] 13 A. Well, I was involved. I don't know what j 1 4 you mean by anything to do. I visited the 15 laboratories, I was made aware of progress, i 16 periodically I would get a report on the j 1 7 findings. 18 Q. Do you know if anybody ever determined 19 that adequate quality control was maintinedon | i i ! i | 20 those tests by IBT? 21 A. I believe that our Monsanto quality 22 control group studied those reports from those ] | j | 23 studies to determine that it was acceptable. 24 Q. Are you familiar with the problems that 25 IBT got into about their quality control program? | GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 65 WATER PCB-SD0000060963 1 - A. Yes, I am. 2 Q. And do you know if Monsanto determined 3 that your studies were not involved in IBT's 4 problems ? 5 A. It is my understanding that the PCB 6 studies were completed long before the IBT people 7 had their problem. 8 Q. Have you given testimony to any 9 governmental bodies regarding PCBs and the alleged 1 0 or potential for health hazards? 1 1 A. I have not personally done so, no. 12 Q. What studies are you aware of, if any, 13 that Monsanto has done on their own workers that 14 have been exposed to PCBs? 15 A. I am aware of an epidemiology study that 16 was started by Judith Zack. I am also aware that 17 there is further study of that same cohort. I do 18 not know the results. I do know the results from 19 Mrs. Zack ' s studies. 20 MR. HALL: Zack? 21 A. Zack, I'm sorry, Zack, Z-A. 22 Q. Do you know if the follow-up s tudy has 23 been completed? 24 A. I do not know. 25 Q. You told me about the different uses in GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 66 WATER PCB-SD0000060964 1 the trade name of tlie PCBs that Monsanto makes. 2 Would the handling of those materials all be in 3 these four plants you told me about or does 4 Monsanto take some of the PCBs it manufactures at 5 its four manufacturing plants and transport those 6 to another locations for further processing or 7 packaging or utilization in some way? 8 A. Yes, it has happened. 9 Q. Can you tell me about how it has been 10 transported away from those four facilities, and 1 1 what handling or application has been made? 12 A. Well, most of the material transferred 13 from the producing units to another Monsanto unit 14 was done with rail cars. Occasionally, it would 15 be transferred in steel drums. The John F. 16 Queenie plant in St. Louis was the site to which 17 PCBs would be shipped, and these PCBs would be 18 blended with other ingredients to produce the 19 hydraulic fluids which were sold under the Pyranol 20 trademark. 21 Other Monsanto sites receive PCBs, 22 either in drums or tank cars, for use at their 23 site in their equipment, not to produce a shipable 24 product. 25 Q. Like heat exchange? GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 67 WATER PCB-SD0000060965 1 - A. Heat exchange or compressor fluid. 2 Q . Any other transfer applications that you 3 can think of? 4 A. Between Monsanto plants, no. 5 Q . Do you know if Monsanto has ever 6 contracted with anyone to handle PCB materials on 7 behalf of Monsanto? In other words, facility that 8 packaged them for you or- did something else for 9 you with those materials, an extension of your 1 0 operations? 1 1 A. The only arrangement I am aware of is 12 the use of distributors who would receive the 13 packaged material for their inventory. They, in 14 turn, would resell it. 15 Q. Does Monsanto put any restrictions for 16 reuse on the container's that PCBs were shipped 17 in? 18 A. I don't recall the specific instructions 19 regarding the containers, no. 20 Q. Do you know if PCBs are absorbed through 21 the skin? 22 I should say the intact human skin, to 23 be clear. 24 A . I have that understanding, yes. 25 Q. Do you know if there has ever been a GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 68 WATER PCB-SD0000060966 1 study done to determine whether or not the 2 temperature of the medium, of the PCB has any 3 affect on skin absorption? 4 A . I am not aware of such a study. 5 Q. Have you ever been tested to determine 6 the PCB content of your body? 7 A . No . 8 Q Is that something that Monsanto has done 9 for any It of its employees that you are aware 1 0 of? 11 A. Not that 1 know of. 1 2 Q. Do you know if any biological monitoring 13 was done of employees, for instance, blood samples 14 or urine or something like that to determine it 15 they were exposed to PCBs? 16 A . Not that I know of. j j '1 17 Q , Are there any trade associations that 1 18 you know of that have had an involvement with any 19 of the potential hazards or with the regulatory 20 lies that surround PCBs''' 21 A Yes . 22 Q Which ones have been active? 2 3 A There is the N EM A, National Electrical 24 Manufacturers Association, and they eventua1ly 25 work through ANSI, the American National Standards GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 69 WATER PCB-SD0000060967 1 Institute. Then there was the I believe it i 2 EEI. I think it is the Edison Electric Institute, 3 but I am not certain. It is EEI. I can't recall 4 any others. 5 Q. Is Monsanto a member ot CUT? 6 A. Yes . 7 Q . Do you know if CUT has ever done any 8 work on PCBs? 9 A. Not that 1 know of. 1 0 Q . What have NEMA and ANSI done with regard 1 1 to PCBs? 12 A. They issued a guideline document on the 13 appropriate handling and disposal of dielectric 14 fluids. 15 Q. Do you know about when that was issued? 16 A. Yes. There were versions available in 17 1972 under the NEMA logo. The ANSI version 1 18 recall came out about 1974. 19 Q. Is that something you have in your 20 files, the NEMA and ANSI vers ions ? 21 A . Not any more. 22 Q. In general, can you tell me what kinds 23 of handling precautions the NEMA paper in 19/2 24 would have included? 25 A. In general, it talked about avoiding CORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 70 WATER PCB-SD0000060968 1 s k i-n contact and breathing of vapors and referred 2 to protective gloves, it referred to hand creams, 3 barrier creams, it referred to just cleanliness, 4 in general, and it went on to discuss disposal 5 methods, recommended incineration sites, waste 6 material. 7 Q. Wha t - 8 A. That is all that comes to mind at the 9 moment. 10 Q . EEI, do you recall what the work they 1 1 did invol ved? 12 A. They prepared a document, a position 13 paper which summarized PCBs for their members and 14 they also were active in contacting governmental 15 agencies and some of the members of Congress and 16 the intent, as I recall, of that group was to 17 demonstrate that PCBs would be difficult to 18 replace, that continued use in some applications 19 was justifiable. 20 Q. If I had a fifty-five gallon drum of PCB 21 material today that I wan ted to get rid of, how 22 would I go about doing that? 23 A. Well, I would suggest to you that you 24 contact the Rollins incinerating operation in Dear 25 Park, Texas, and arrange for a proper shipment so GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 71 WATER PCB-SD0000060969 1 they don't spill it en route, and Rollins people 2 will incinerate it for you. 3 Q. Are they the only once that do that kind 4 ofbusiness? 5 A. I believe they are at the moment, yes. 6 Q. Has Monsanto ever taken upon themselves 7 to bring this material back for disposal? 8 A. There was a period of time when we did 9 have that service, yes. 1 0 Q. What did that involve and where was it 1 1 and what did you do? 12 A. We had an incinerator installed at the 13 Sauget, Illinois plant which was capable of 14 destroying liquid PCB wastes, and we would tell 15 our -- encourage our customers to collect the 16 material in sturdy drums that could withstand the 17 trip back, and we would supply labels with the 18 proper precautionary words on it, and give them an 19 address, ship to address, and we would attempt to 20 charge a fee that would sort of pay for the 21 operation without any profit motive. And it was 22 u3ed quite extensively. 23 Q. What time period did that occur, 24 approximately? 25 A . I'm sorry? GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 72 WATER PCB-SD0000060970 1 - Q. What time period, approximately, that 2 can you remember ? 3 A . We started collecting the material in 4 late 1970. The unit was placed on stream in early 5 '71, and was finally dismantled when we ceased 6 operations in'77. 7 Q. Is there a reason why you ceased that 8 operation? 9 A. Well, I wasn't involved directly at the 1 0 time, so I really don't know. 11 MR. HALL: By that operation, you were 12 talking about the disposal? 13 MR. HOBSON: Yes. 14 Q. Have you ever had any contact with a 15 company called Transformer Consultants? 1 6 A . Yes . 17 Q. When did those contacts begin? 18 A . '74 or '75. 19 Q. Can you tell me the nature of those 20 contacts at that time? 21 A. As best I recal 1 , they were in the 22 business of servicing trans formers. They were 23 aware of the PCB issue and through our marketing 24 people, made some inquiries regarding brochures 25 and the like that Monsanto might offer. The GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 73 WATER PCB-SD0000060971 1 marketing individual asked me to join him and we 2 visited Transtormer Consultants. I believe that 3 was about '74, '75, at their offices. 4 Q. Would there be a way you could verify 5 that date? Do you have a field memo or expense 6 report or something that would give you a date? 7 A . I used to have, but I no longer have . 8 Q . Tell me what you remember about the 9 meeting. if you would? 1 0 A . About the visit? 1 1 Q. Yes, sir. 12 A . As I recall , we met with s everal of the 13 Transformer Consultants representatives, there was 1 4 a circle of us in a large room, and I reviewed 15 with that group the status of things as I 16 understood it at that point in time, the latest 17 toxicity study reports, where the government stood 18 regarding PCBs and regulating of PCBs, and by that 19 time, the BPA had some thoughts on it, and EP A had 20 some guidelines on it. And we talked about the 21 existence of the NEMA, ANSI committee that had by 22 that time pretty well finalized its guidelines. 23 As I recall, a t that time Monsanto also 24 had revised a brochure on Askaril or PCB 25 handling. And we offered to send them copies that GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 74 WATER PCB-SD0000060972 1 they would, in turn, pass on to their clients, 2 customers. That was about the gist of our 3 discussion. We both agreed to keep the dialogue 4 going in the future. 5 Q. Did this take place in their facilities 6 or yours? 7 A. Their facilities in the Akron area, as I B recall. 9 Q. Had Transformer Consultants been a 1 0 customer of Monsanto's as far as purchasing of 1 1 Askaril materials? 12 A. I understand they were, yes. 13 Q. At the time of your visit? 1 4 A. Yes . 1 5 Q. If they would have bought your Askaril 16 materials, they would have gotten the labeling, 17 precautionary labeling for Askaril materials? 18 A. Yes . 19 Q. Do you know how long they had been 20 purchasing Askaril materials? 21 A . No, I don ' t. 22 Q. Did they give you any impression ? In 23 other words, were you able to form any impres sion 24 about how long they had been purchasing your 25 product? GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 7b WATER PCB-SD0000060973 1 - A. Not really. 2 MR. SULLIVAN: Objection to the form of 3 the question because I think he just said he 4 doesn't know. Consequently, the question calls 5 for shear speculation. 6 Q. Did Transformer Consultants describe to 7 you what they did in their business? 8 A. Not to me, no. 9 Q. Did you have any knowledge prior to your 1 0 visit with Transformer Consultants? 1 1 A. Only that I was aware of the name and 12 the type of service. No direct contact. 13 Q . Can you tell us how transformers get 14 contaminated in the field with PCBs when, 15 apparently, they were intended to have mineral oil 16 in them? 17 A. I really have no personal involvement or 18 knowledge. 19 Q. Do you know if anybody at Monsanto has 20 looked at or thought about that problem? 21 A. Well, I have been present with 22 discussions on that, yes. 23 Q . What is your recollection of the 24 discussions? 25 A . The potential for cross contamination GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 76 WATER PCB-SD0000060974 1 does exist. Other than that, 1 don't recall 2 anything specific: . 3 Q . Just that people have said the potential 4 exists, and you have not heard them say how that 5 occurs or why that occurs, just that the potential 6 exists? 7 A. 1 suspect they did mention it, but 1 8 have forgotten, really. 9 Q. Mr. Papageorge, have you given any 10 technical papers or presentations to groups of 11 industrial hygienists or epidemiologists or 12 medical people that are interested in health 13 effects of different materials? 14 A . No . 15 Q. Have you published any papers in the 16 medical or scientific literature about PCBs and 1 7 any association for or against health effects? 18 A . No . 19 Q. Have you ever attempted to publish any? 20 A . No . 21 Q. Have any ever been prepared by you or 22 your staff for publication and Monsanto refused 23 pub1ication? 24 A . No . 25 MR. HOBSON: I think that is all I have. GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 77 WATER PCB-SD0000060975 1 MR. HALL: Mr. Carrington? 2 MR . CARRINGTON : No questions. 3 MR . SCHEURICH: No questions. 4 MS . OLIVER: No questions. 5 MR . SULLIVAN: I have a couple. I 6 wanted to clarify your testimony, if I could, 7 sir. 8 CROSS EXAMINATION 9 BX MR. SULLIVAN: 1 0 Q. Is my understanding correct that the 1 1 first regulations controlling the use ot or 12 exposure to PCB would have been in the mid to late 13 1970s, approximately? 14 A. The first regulations. As I recall, FDA 15 came out with something about 1973. That would 16 have been the first. 1 7 Q. And I believe you testified that the 18 first report of any alleged or potential link to 19 PCB exposure with any form of cancer was not until 20 1974 or '75; is that correct? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. And essentially all the prior 2 3 information available regarding any potential 24 health hazards associated with PCB use was 25 irritation to skin, such a s chloracne, or GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI WATER PCB-SD0000060976 1 irritation to the respiratory system, such as a 2 cold or sore throat? 3 A. That is my understanding, yes. 4 Q. I believe you stated it was 1974, 1975, 5 when you were first contacted by someone from 6 Transformer Consultants; is that correct? 7 A. No. It was someone from Transformer 8 Consultants contacted a Monsanto person who, in 9 turn, contacted me. 10 Q. But it was, as best you can recall, 1 1 1974, '75, when that occurred? 12 A . Yes. 13 Q. And it is your understanding that 14 Transformer Consultants was asking for general 15 information about any potential hazards associated 16 with PCBs ? 1 7 A . Yes . 18 Q. And is it fair to say that is about the 19 same time that industry and government was first 20 contemplating regulations regarding the use and 21 handling of PCBs? 22 That is the approximate time frame, 23 isn't it? 24 A. 11 is pretty close, yes . 25 Q. Is it fair to say, sir, you are not GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 79 WATER PCB-SD0000060977 1 aware of any competent medical literature or 2 research suggesting any link between PCB exposure 3 and lymphoma? 4 A . That 's correct. - 5 MR . SULLIVAN: No further questions. 6 MR . HALL: Anybody else? 7 MR . HOBSON: Generated a coup!e, if I 1 i1 1I i11i 8 may . 9 REDIRECT EXAMINATION 1 0 BY MR. HOBSON: 1 1 Q . Do you know, Mr. Papageorge, if any of 12 the Walsh Healey regulations were applicable to 13 PCBs ? 14 A . No . 15 Q. Did Monsanto ever have a policy or a 16 recommendation regarding the mixing of Askaril j I 17 materials with non Askaril materials when used as 18 dielectrics? 19 A. I don't know that I would call it a 20 policy. 21 Q. Well, if somebody asked you should these 22 materials be mixed, would you tell them anything 23 one way or the other? 24 A. Yes. We would say that if you mix them, 25 you diminish the fire resistance of that mixture. GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 80 WATER PCB-SD0000060978 1 S o y o u are losing some of the benefits that P C B s 2 offer. 3 Q. So it is not a good idea to mix the two 4 materials together? 5 A. From a fire resistance viewpoint, yes. 6 Q . Is that something that was known tor 7 many years, '30s, '40s, '50s? 8 A . Yes. 9 MR. SULLIVAN: Objection to the form of 1 0 the question because it is not defined, deter'mined 11 known to whom. 12 Q. Certainly known to Monsanto, and if 13 anybody would have asked, you would have told them 14 they diminish the fire resistive properties of the 1 5 materials if they mix it? 16 A . Yes . 17 Q. Did you ever dispose of any PCB 18 materials for either General Electric or 19 Westinghouse? 20 A. Yes . 21 Q. That would have been at your Sauget, 22 Illinois facility? 23 A. Yes . 24 Q. Were they part of your -- I guess 25 campaign or part of your -- I don't know what word GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 81 WATER PCB-SD0000060979 1 to use, program, to bring PCBs back to Monsanto 2 and get them incinerated? In other words, did you 3 go to GE and Westinghouse and say here is our 4 facility and here is our capability and tell your 5 customers and use them as the conduit back to 6 Monsanto? 7 A. Yes. We had that approach. a MR. HOBSON: I think that is all I have. 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI a2 WATER PCB-SD0000060980 1. . 2 COMES NOW THE WITNESS, W.B. PAPAGEORGE, '' 3 andhaving read the foregoing transcript of the 4 deposition taken on the 26th day ot September, 5 1986, acknowledges by signature hereto that it is 6 a true and accurate transcript of the testimony 7 given on the date hereinabove mentioned. 8 9 10 1 1 W.B. PAPAGEORGE 12 Subscribed and sworn to me before this 13 day of , 19 8 7 . 14 My Commission expires: __________________________ 15 16 17 18 19 Notary Public 20 21 22 23 24 25 I i !I j GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 83 WATER PCB-SD0000060981 1 State of Missouri ) 2 ) SS . 3 City of St. Louis ) 4 I, ELSIE M. DELEVICH, a Notary Public in 5 and for the State of Missouri, duly commissioned, 6 qualified and authorized to administer oaths and 7 to certify to depositions, do hereby certify that 8 pursuant to Notice in the civil cause now pending 9 and undetermined in the United States District 10 Court for the Eastern District of Texas, Beaumont 1 1 Division, to be used in the trial of said cause in 12 said court, I was attended at the Danielle Hotel, 13 in the County of St. Louis, State of Missouri, by 14 the aforesaid witness; and by the aforesaid 15 attorneys; on the 26th day of September, 1986. 16 The said witness, being of sound mind and 17 being by me first carefully examined and duly 18 cautioned and sworn to testify the truth, the 19 whole truth, and nothing but the truth in the case 20 aforesaid, thereupon testified as is shown in the 2 1 foregoing transcript, said testimony being by me 22 reported in shorthand and caused to be transcribed 23 into typewriting, and that the foregoing pages 24 correctly set forth the testimony of the 25 aforementioned witness, together with the GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 84 WATER PCB-SD0000060982 1 questions propounded by counsel and remarks and 2 objections of counsel thereto, and is in all 3 respects a full, true, correct and complete 4 transcript of the questions propounded to and the 5 answers given by said witness; that signature of 6 the deponent was not waived by agreement of 7 counsel. 8 I further certify that I am not of 9 counsel or attorney for either of the parties to 10 said suit, not related to nor interested in any of 1 1 the parties or their attorneys. 12 Witness my hand and notarial seal at St. Louis, Missouri, this l^ day of 13 14 UOUjo. , 1987. 15 My Commission expires August 8, 1988. 16 \QLtoi. 17 18 Notary Public in and for the 19 State of Missouri. 20 21 22 23 24 25 GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 8b WATER PCB-SD0000060983 DEPOSITION CORRECT ION SHEET In Re: Upon reading che deposition and before subscribing thereto, the deponent indicated the following changes should be made : Page Line Should read: Reason assigned for change: Page Line Should read: Reason assigned for change: Page Line Should read: Reason assigned for change: Page Line Should read: Reason assigned for change: Page Line Should read: Reason assigned for change: Page Line Should read: Reason assigned for change: Page Line Should read: Reason assigned for change: Page Line Should read: Reason assigned for change: ' ------------------ moonent WATER PCB-SD0000060984 In Re: DEPOSITION CORRECTION SHEET Upon reading the deposition and before subscribing thereto, the deponent indicated the following changes should be made : Page Line Should read: Reason assigned for change: Page Line Should read: Reason assigned for change: Page Line Should read: Reason assigned for change: Page Line Should read: Reason assigned for change: Page Line Should read: Reason assigned for change: Page Line Should read: Reason assigned for change: Page Line Should read: Reason assigned for change: Page Line Should read: Reason assigned for change: ' Deoonent WATER PCB-SD0000060985