Document gDNgKN2paL93dLdaXbbLQ9NEV

martino in nn vol ii Martino, carlo--vol. II, Newport News page 137 1 VIRGINIA: IN THE CIRCUIT COURT FOR THE NEWS 2 3 : At Law No.: CL99-2000 4 IN RE: ALL ASBESTOS CASES : DEPOSITION OF: 5 CARLO F. MARTINO (Volume II) 6/ 7 8 9 10 TRANSCRIPT of the stenographic notes of 11 the proceedings in the above-entitled matter, as 12 taken by and before JUDY A. black, a certified 13 shorthand Reporter, Registered Professional Reporter, 14 and Notary Public of the State of New Jersey, held at 15 the offices of wilentz, Goldman & spitzer, pa, 16 90 woodbridge Center Drive, woodbridge, New Jersey, 17 on Thursday, July 11, 2002, commencing at 10:00 in 18 the morning. 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Martino, Carlo--Vol. II, Newport News page 138 . CITY OF NEWPORT 1 APPEARANCES: 2 THE LAW OFFICES OF PETER T. NICHOLL 36 South Charles Street 3 Suite 1700 Baltimore, Maryland 21201 4 BY: MICHAEL T. WARD, ESQ. Attorneys for Plaintiff 5 PIERCE, HERNS, SLOAN & MCLEOD, ESQS. 6 321 East Bay Street Charleston, south Carolina 29401 7 BY: DAVID YARBOROUGH, ESQ. Attorneys for Defendant Union Carbide 8 Corporation 9 MAYER, BROWN, ROWE & maw, ESQS. 190 South LaSalle Street 10 Chicago, Illinois 60603-3441 by: george J. tzanetopoulos, esq. 11 Attorneys for Defendant unioncarbide Corporation 12 GOLDFEIN & HOSMER, PC 13 1600 Market Street 33rd Floor . 14 Philadelphia, Pennsylvania 19103-7288 BY: DAVID c. weinberg, ESQ. 15 Attorneys for Defendant Garlock, Inc. 16 17 18 19 20 21 . 22 23 24 25 Martino, carlo--vol. II, Newport News page 139 1 2 WITNESS INDEX DIRECT CROSS REDIRECT RECROSS Page 1 SC-ELEC-12610 martino in nn vol ii 3 CARLO F. MARTINO 4 BY MR. WARD 140 5 EXHIBITS 67/ NUMBER DESCRIPTION PAGE 8 Martino-7 Union Carbide internal correspondence dated 9 11/22/72 145 10 Martino-8 Letter dated 7/24/68 149 11 Marti no-9 Handwritten chart, undated 149 12 Martino-10 Purchase Order dated 11/23/70 190 13 Martino-11 Internal correspondence 14 dated April 17, 1969 221 15 Martino-12 Document dated 2/6/69 226 16 Martino-13 Memorandum dated 2/17/69 226 17 Martino-14 Diagram dated 9/17/73 230 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 DMartino, carlo- -vol. ii, Newport News page 140 1 CARLO F. MARTINO, residing at 125 River 2 Road, Somerville, New Jersey, having been previously 3 sworn by the Notary, testified as follows: 4 DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. WARD: 5 Q. Good morning, Mr.Martino. 6 A. Good morning. 7 Q. Before I resume the review of 8 asbestos-containing phenolic molding compounds, I 9 have some matters from yesterday that I want to clear 10 up with you. 11 Towards the beginning of the deposition 12 yesterday, you mentioned the number 40 percent, and I 13 either cut you off, or for whatever reason we didn't 14 follow up on it at that time, and I assume you were 15 referring to the statement made by union Carbide in 16 their submission under the Asbestos information Act. 17 A. No, I -- sorry. 18 MR. YARBOROUGH: Let him finish his 19 question. 20 Q. well, there's a statement in there that 21 says, "Most Bakelite --" I'm reading from Exhibit 2, 22 third page, it says, "Most Bakelite did not contain 23 asbestos. At its peak, asbestos-containing Bakelite 24 comprised 40 percent of the Bakelite produced by 25 union carbide." That was not the 40 percent you were Martino, Carlo--vol. ii, Newport News page 141 1 referring to? 2 A. No. i arrived at 40 percent from -- by 3 using the phenolic molding material manual from 1973 4 and counting the products, it comes out roughly 5 40 percent. I think you have a copy of that. 6 Q. Of the phenolic molding compound manual? 7 That just lists the products that were being sold. 8 correct? Page 2 martino in nn vol ii 9 A. well, it has more information than that. 10 The products, what the designations mean. That's it. 11 Q. You're referring to that document? 12 A. Yes, yes. And I had lost it and found 13 it about a year ago, and this is the only document 14 I've been referring to. The rest of it has been 15 memory. 16 MR. WARD: All right. Just for the . 17 record, it's a document entitled "Bakelite Phenolic 18 Molding Materials Guide," and Mr. Martino's name 19 appears on the cover of that document. The first 20 page bears the Bates No. UCASB 00945127. 21 Q. So what you did is you looked through 22 that guide, counted tne products that contained 23 asbestos, and the ones that did not contain asbestos, 24 you did your math, and came up to the 40 percent 25 estimate? QMartino, carlo--vol. n, Newport News page 142 1 A. Yes. initially I didn't have 2 formulations to work from and had to do some guessing 3 from the specific gravities. Then I found a couple 4 formulation sheets which enabled me to make some 5 adjustments in my estimates. 6 Q. Now, yesterday, and I assume later on 7 today, you recognized that there were some 8 asbestos-containing products that you did not 9 remember as being asbestos-containing, is that 10 correct? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. And would that have an impact on the 13 calculation that you made of 40 percent? 14 A. I don't think so. The products that 15 were referred to were, as I recall, in the '60s, and 16 that's '73, and that was after we did a lot of 17 product elimination and consolidation. 18 Unfortunately, I don't have another 19 manual for 19 -- for the other years that I could do 20 the same thing for those periods of time. 21 Q. Did your calculation take into account 22 the volume of sales for each respective product? 23 A. No. No, it did not. 24 Q. All products were given equal weight, in 25 other words? OMartino, Carlo--vol. II, Newport News page 143 1 A. That's right. That's right. That 2 information is not in there. 3 Q. Do you have any information regarding 4 the calculation made by union Carbide corporation 5 that I just quoted you from the letter marked as 6 Exhibit 2? Do you know how they calculated that 7 40 percent figure? 8 A. No, I don't. 9 Q. Were you asked to provide information 10 relative to that calculation? 11 A. I don't recall having been called on 12 that, is that 1988? 13 Q. Yes. This is the document that was 14 made -- written in 1989, and it's signed by one of 15 the in-house lawyers for union carbide, Mr. Robert A. Page 3 martino in nn vol ii 16 Butler. 17 A. And was I on the distribution? 18 Q. No, I don't believe so. 19 A. Then I don't think I was consulted. 20 Otherwise, they would have sent me a copy. 21 Q. Now, when you testified in the 22 deposition on May 9th, 2001, I believe you said that 23 the peak of asbestos-containing phenolic molding 24 compounds relative to the total product mix was in 25 around 1972. is that correct? DMartino, Carlo--Vol. II, Newport News page 144 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. And how did that peak come aboutin '72? 3 A. we were losing a lot of applications to 4 thermoplastics, high-melting-point thermoplastics 5 that could be colored, and a lot of those were the 6 wood-filled -- wood flour-filled product's, and so 7 that -- as we lost that business, we ended up with 8 those applications where the high-melting-point 9 thermoplastics didn't work, and it turned out that 10 many of those in the electrical applications were you 11 must have -- they want material that won't melt at 12 all, and so that moved -- as you eliminated products, 13 the ratio changed, and then when we consolidated 14 products, we -- the ratios were affected, so I have 15 no data on the -- in the '60s, what the ratio is. I 16 might be able to get it from what's available now. 17 Q. During this period in the late '60s, was 18 the use of asbestos in phenolic molding compounds 19 increasing, decreasing, or remaining essentially the 20 same? Ana I'm talking in terms of volume. 21 MR. YARBOROUGH: By Union Carbide? 22 Q. By union carbide, for phenolic molding 23 compounds. 24 A. I really don't have the figures to 25 answer that. I might be able to do it after I go DMartino, Carlo--vol. II, Newport News page 145 1 through these boxes. 2 Q. At this time you're not sure? 3 A. no, I'm not sure. 4. MR. WARD: I want to have this document 5 marked as an exhibit. It's internal correspondence 6 from union carbide Corporation, dated November 22nd, 7 1972. it's written by Mr. D.R. Albright to a 8 Mr. r.e. Nicol son, multiple carbon copies, including 9 one to Mr. Martino. I'd like to mark that as Martino 10 no. 7. 11 (Martino-7, union Carbide internal 12 correspondence dated 11/22/72, is received and marked 13 for identification.) 14 Q. Mr. Martino, I have a copy so you can 15 read along as we go. 16 First, Mr. Albright, what was his 17 position at union carbide at this time period? 18 A. He was department head in charge of the 19 phenolic molding material department. 20 Q. He was responsible for, then, all phases 21 of the operations? 22 A. of the manufacturing operation. Page 4 martino in nn vol ii 23 Q. Of the manufacturing operation. 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. And the letter is directed to Mr. R.E.. DMartino, Carlo--vol. II, Newport News page 146 1 Nicol son. Could you tell me who he is, or was? 2 A. He was the general manager of the 3 thermoset resins and molding business. 4 Q. Was he in Bound Brook, or is he up in 5 New York, or elsewhere? 6 A. He was in Bound Brook. 7 Q. I'm not going to ask you all the other 8 gentlemen there. I am interested in Mr. DeCoudres. 9 A. DeCoudres. 10 Q. Excuse me. That's spelled D-E capital 11 C-O-U-D-R-E-S. 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. what was his position? 14 A. I think he was plant manager. 15 Q. And Mr. Ducca, or Ducca, D-U-C-C-A, what 16 was his position? 17 A. He was a technical -- he was an engineer 18 who worked in the manufacturing area. He previously 19 had worked in r&d, because youTll see him on r&d 20 correspondence, as well. 21 Q. I have seen that, yes. 22 The last name on the list, Mr. J.P. 23 zuccarelli, z-u-c-c-a-r-e-l-l-i. 24 A. Right. 25 Q. what was his position? DMartino, Carlo--Vol. II, Newport News page 147 1 A. i think he was involved in the safety 2 organization. 3 Q. And Mr. Swalm, the name right above it, 4 S-W-A-l-m, was he in safety, as well? 5 A. I don't remember him. 6 Q. in the first sentence of that letter, it 7 says, "Messrs. Albright, Madestau, Martino, Moked and 8 Potter met on November 17, 1972, to develop 9 strategies and programs for the future regarding the 10 use of asbestos in phenolic molding compounds." 11 And then the letter goes on to recount 12 certain plans that you made at that meeting, and i'll 13 be coming back to that later in the deposition. 14 Right now, I'd like to direct your 15 attention to the third page under the heading "some 16 Alternatives." The second entry says, "Discontinue 17 manufacture of all products containing asbestos (60 18 percent of current product mix)." 19 Do you know how Mr. Albright made the 20 calculation of 60 percent of the current product mix? 21 A. No, I don't. 22 Q. Mr. Albright was in charge of the plant? 23 A. Yes. This is -- well, it's dated a year 24 earlier than that book, so there's a year difference 25 between -- there may have been some eliminations. DMartino, Carlo--vol. II, Newport News page 148 1 Again, I'm -- Page 5 martino in nn vol ii 2 Q. I'm more interested in the statement 3 that Union carbide made to the united states 4 Government in their submission under the Asbestos 5 information Act. There's a big difference between 6 60 percent and 40 percent. 7 do you have any information as to which 8 is more accurate of those two? 9 A. I can justify mine. I think -- I can't 10 help you on how he arrived at it. I can only 11 speculate on that. 12 Q. All right. I don't want you to 13 speculate, and neither does David. I'll come back to 14 this document later because there's a lot of stuff in 15 there to talk about. 16 we had quite a bit of conversation 17 yesterday about the types of asbestos that were used, 18 and I spent a little time last night pulling 19 documents about that. I'd like to mark two exhibits. 20 The first is a letter written by you to 21 a Mr. -- a Dr. T.T. Szabo, s-z-A-B-O, dated 22 July 24th, 1968. And that would be Martino No. 8. I 23 hanawrote the Bates number on the bottom because I 24 didn't have an extra copy of the original one. The 25 last six digits are 916548. OMartino, carlo--vol. II, Newport News page 149 1 (Martino-8, Letter dated 7/24/68, is 2 received and marked for identification.) 3 (Martino-9, Handwritten chart, undated, 4 is received and marked for identification.) 5 Q. The other document that we've marked as 6 Martino Exhibit No. 9 is a handwritten chart which 7 doesn't bear a date. It says, "Types of asbestos now 8 used." 9 in the middle column, it says, "volume 10 purchased in 1969," so presumably this document was 11 written in 1970, but -- that Bates number is -- last 12 six digits is 916516. 13 we have been trying to -- this lists 14 five different -- by "this," I'm referring to Exhibit 15 no. 8 -- lists five different types of asbestos that 16 were purchased in 1967. is that correct? 17 A. That's what it shows, yes. 18 Q. And, again, you wrote thisletter. 19 A. I know. I know. 20 Q. The first fiber that's listed, it says 21 "Carbide code 18026." It notes, "Grade 7 RF from 22 Asbestos Fibers Distributors, costing 2.8 cents a 23 pound," and there's a large amount of consumption of 24 that material. 25 Do you know which RM that represents? Martino, carlo--vol. n, Newport News page 150 1 we were talking about RM-18-B and all those other -- 2 those other five codes. 3 A. Yes. I don't. I'm trying to remember 4 where this came from. 5 Q. The second fiber listed there, 18156, is 6 designated as fiber KB 653-8D from Asbestos 7 Corporation Limited. 8 A. Um-hum. Page 6 martino in nn vol ii 9 MR. Yarborough: Dash 6d, i believe. 10 Q. 6d. 11 MR. YARBOROUGH: Did you say 8d? 12 THE witness: Yeah, you did. it's 6d. 13 q. I'm sorry. And you'11 note that the 14 cost of that material is, oh, more than twice as 15 much . it's 6.2 cents a pound. 16 Do you know what type of asbestos that 17 is? 18 A. No. No. 19 Q. Did the African blue asbestos cost more 20 than the Canadian chrysotile? 21 A. Yes, it did. 22 Q. Did it cost, like, twice as much? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. Asbestos corporation Limited, they sell 25 Afri can blue asbestos, do they not? DMartino, Carlo--vol. II, Newport News page 151 1 A. That, I don't know. That's the only 2 company listed, foreign company listed, is that 3 company, sorry. Again, I'm speculating. I don't 4 know. 5 Q. Well, maybe when we go through another 6 document or two, we'll be able to piece it together. 7 A. I'm not -- well -- 8 MR. YARBOROUGH: Just wait for a 9 question. Answer what you know. 10 Q. I believe that's probably RM-18-0. 11 would you agree with that? 12 MR. Yarborough: objection. Does he 13 agree with you, or does he agree with -- 14 Q. I'm saying that carbide Code 18156, 15 based on the documents I reviewed, I believe it's 16 RM-18-0. Do you agree or disagree with that, or do 17 you have no opinion? 18 A. I don't know. 19 Q. Okay. The next carbide code is 18166, 20 and there's a letter "P" handwritten in next to it. 21 Do you believe that that represents the RM-18-P 22 fiber? 23 A. I don't know. . 24 Q. i'll skip to the last one, 18196, fiber 25 grade 7D-4 from Lake Asbestos Company, and, again, OMartino, Carlo--vol. II, Newport News page 152 1 the price on that is 6.4 cents a pound, about twice 2 as much as the asbestos fiber that there's more 3 consumption of. 4 Do you believe that that is a long 5 fiber, an African long fiber? 6 A. I don't know. 7 Q. Do youknow any reason why a chrysotile 8 fiber from Canada would be twice as much as other 9 grades? 10 A. Again, I would have to make an 11 assumption. I don't know. 12 Q. Let me just --well, before I go on to 13 that question, I totalled the far right-hand column 14 on consumption, and you can check my math. I'm 15 talking about Exhibit 8. On Exhibit 8, on the far Page 7 mart!no in nn vol ii 16 right-hand column, it says, "consumption in pounds." 17 if you total those five numbers, it comes put to be 18 2,000,574 pounds -- excuse me, 2,574,000 pounds. 19 Now, in the letter that we marked 20 earlier as Martino No. 5, in 1970, the consumption 21 was 2,874,395. Correct? 22 MR. YARBOROUGH: Again, Mike, you're 23 allowing me a continuing objection to form and lack 24 of foundation to all your questions - 25 MR. WARD: Sure. OMartino, carlo--vol. II, Newport News page 153 1 MR. YARBOROUGH: -- without having to 2 renew them at each question. Correct? 3 MR. ward: That's fine. 4 A. The figure you gave on this was what? 5 Q. You could check my math. 2,574,000. 6 A. Okay. 7 Q. And my question, and, again, feel free 8 to check my math, is -- that would indicate that from 9 1974 to 19 -- 10 MR. YARBOROUGH: 1968. 11 Q. well, this is referring to consumption 12 in 1967. correct? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. And this is referring to consumption in 15 1969. correct? 16 A. That's right. 17 Q. So from '67 to '79, the consumption of 18 asbestos was increasing at union Carbide for phenolic 19 molding materials. Is that correct? 20 MR. Yarborough: According to these 21 documents? 22 MR. WARD: According to their internal 23 documents. Dust a mathematical question. 24 A. Yes, but a 300,000-pound variation of 25 one year to another -- DMart`ino, Carlo--vol. II, Newport News page 154 1 MR. YARBOROUGH: Dust answer his 2 question. It's a yes or no question, or "I don't 3 know." 4 A. well, based on these documents, there's 5 a 300,000-pound increase. 6 MR. YARBOROUGH: Assuming his math is 7 correct. 8 MR. WARD: I gave you a continuing 9 objection. 10 A. Now, the only point I'm trying to make 11 is you need to have more data, because you get 12 variation from year to year. And 300,000 pounds from 13 year to year doesn't seem to be, you know, a -- I 14 wouldn't consider a trend until I saw more data. 15 Q. well, I'll try to find that. 16 A. I'm sure you will, if it's there. 17 Q. Martino No. 9 is a document that says, 18 "Types of asbestos now used." Do you recognize that 19 handwriting? 20 A. No, I don't. 21 Q. Now, that, again -- this one has a 22 number of columns. On the far left, it says, Page 8 martino in nn vol ii 23 "product code," and it's the various numbers we've 24 been using throughout this deposition, 18-B, 18-P, 25 18-Q, 18-S, 18-0. DMartino, Carlo--Vol. II, Newport News page 155 1 I would like you to compare Martino 2 no. 9 with Martino No. 8 and see if you can now tell 3 me which RM code matches the Carbide code number on 4 Exhibit 8. 5 A. I don't see any match for 18-B, which is 6 marked GAF 7 Q. It looks like what used to be materials 8 purchased well, strike that. 9 I'm just really interested in two of 10 them. 11 A. Here, 1M matches up with 18166, P. 12 Q. Right. 13 A. So there's a match. 14 Q. So 18-P - 15 A. would be -16 Q. -- is 18166. is that correct? 17 A. That's what it appears to be to me, yes. 18 Q. All right. 19 A. Carey -- 20 Q. were Carey materials distributed by 21 Asbestos er Distributors? 22 A. Asbestos floats. I never remember them 23 supplying bers. I don't see them on this list, and 24 the volume 25 suppliers Martino, Carlo--vol. II, Newport News page 156 1 that's the company I had most experience with. 2 Q. Carey Fibers? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. Let me jump down to thelast entry, 5 18-0, RM-18-0, which we have concluded was African 6 long asbestos fiber. 7 On Martino-9 it shows it was sold by 8 Asbestos Corp. Do you see a match for that on 9 Martino No. 8? 10 A. There's an Asbestos Corp.Limited; which 11 would be the same. 12 MR. Yarborough: is there a match? 13 Listen to his questions. 14 A. There's a match except for "Limited." 15 Q. All right, well, I guess these are not 16 entirely conclusive in and of themselves, i'll have 17 to go back and find more documents on that. 18 I did have one question -- these last 19 two fibers listed on Martino No. 9 are, again, about 20 twice the price of the three listed above it. in 21 other words, 18-S and 18-0 are about twice the price. 22 Do you believe that 18-S and 18-0 are both African 23 long fiber asbestos? 24 MR. YARBOROUGH: if you know. Don't 25 speculate. DMartino, Carlo--vol. II, Newport News page 157 ' 1 A. I don't know. Page 9 martino in nn vol ii 2 Q. do you know what 18-S is? 3 A. No, I don't. That is, I don't remember 4 now. 5 Q. in any event, the document marked as 6 Martino No. 9 is referring to volume purchased in 7 1969. Correct? . 8 A. Yes. Yes, that's correct. 9 Q. now, if you total those numbers in that 10 column, volume purchased in 1969, my total for that 11 is 4,770,000 pounds -- and, again, you can check my 12 math, if you'd like -- which is significantly more 13 than what's referred to in Martino No. 5, that being 14 2,874,395. it's almost two million pounds more in 15 Martino-9 versus Martino No. 5. do you know why that 16 is? ' 17 A. No, I don't. 18 Could I read this more carefully? 19 Q. Take your time, sure. 20 A. I don't see a reason for it at all. 21 This is based on 1969 sales scrolls, and I don't 22 know -- and that should be accurate. I don't know 23 what this is based on. 24 Q. Let me ask you a question, up to this 25 point, we've been just talking about phenolic molding DMartino, Carlo--vol. II, Newport News page 158 1 compounds containing asbestos that were made at Bound 2 Brook, were there other asbestos-containing products 3 made at Bound Brook besides the phenolic molding 4 compounds? 5 A. No. well, let me take it back. None 6 that I'm aware of. 7 Q. Asbestos is used as a filler or a 8 reinforcing agent in thermoplastics, as well. Is 9 that correct? 10 A. Some -- I don't know of anybody who was 11 using it except for some experimental work in 12 polysulphone, what happened there, I don't know. I 13 was not in that area. And that would have been a 14 very small volume, nothing -- you know, the main use, 15 and I think the only -- tne prime use was in phenolic 16 molding materials. . 17 Q. when Mr. Kipp made his calculations that 18 appear in Martino Exhibit 5, he was assuming there 19 were, by my count, 52 asbestos-containing molding 20 materials. That's what's on the list that's 21 attached. And then he looked for the sales records 22 for those products and calculated asbestos 23 consumption based on that information, correct? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. So ifthere were more than 52 DMartino, carlo--vol. II, Newport News page 159 1 asbestos-containing molding materials being made in 2 1969, his calculations would be low. correct? 3 A. if there were more - 4 Q. Let's say instead of 52 ' 5 asbestos-containing molding materials, there was a 6 hundred. His calculation that he made in this 7 document would be too low. Correct? 8 A. I don't understand. Ifthere were more, Page 10 martino in nn vol ii 9 where would they be produced? 10 Q. well, maybe Mr. Kipp didn't know some of 11 the products were asbestos-containing that were being 12 made there. 13 In other words, I'm trying to explain 14 the apparent discrepancy between Marti no-5 and 15 Martino-9. 16 MR. YARBOROUGH: Well, I'm iust going to 17 object because the letter states forth tne 18 discrepancy, but the letter states forth -- the 19 numbers set forth in this paragraph are sales, and 20 they don't necessarily include products purchased but 21 not sold, and this just reflects products purchased. 22 Q. do you think you would carry almost two 23 million pounds of inventory of phenolic molding 24 compounds? No, that's just asbestos. 25 A. This is volume of asbestos purchased. OMartino, Carlo-r-vol. II, Newport News page 160 1 Q. I'm trying to figure out what happened 2 to the other two million pounds. 3 A. Yeah, and I can't believe we had two 4 million pounds of asbestos in inventory. 5 MR. YARBOROUGH: Don't make assumptions. 6 Only answer what you know. 7 A. I can't account for the difference. 8 Certainly Herve was a very competent individual. He 9 would know if any -- there is no other place where 10 the material would be made except here. 11 Q. There's a lot of products we reviewed 12 yesterday that appeared to have been made in the late 13 "'60s that do not appear on this list that is attached 14 to Marti no-5. 15 A. They can be on the books, but not 16 necessarily manufactured. If there are no orders for 17 them, they don't get made. 18 Q. All right. Well, I guess we're not 19 going to solve this dilemma today. 20 A. It's certainly -- 21 MR. YARBOROUGH:, lust wait for a 22 question, carlo. 23 A. Yeah. Again, the curiosity of an 24 engineer. 25 Q. I'm going to just go back to looking at OMartino, carlo--vol. n, Newport News page 161 1 some of these products. Let me take a second to do a 2 little housekeeping. 3 (A recess is taken.) 4 Q. I'm going back, Mr. Martino, to going 5 over the asbestos-containing phenolic molding 6 compounds that I have documents for. 7 The next one that I would like to cover 8 is bmz-5250 Brown 35. Are you familiar with that 9 product? 10 A. 5250? 11 Q. 5250, BMZ. 12 A. No, I don'tremember it. 13 Q. in the union Carbide submission to the 14 government, they refer to a high-impact 15 heat-resistant product, they say consisting of 50 Page 11 martino in nn vol ii 16 percent long fiber African blue asbestos, and they 17 say the designation is bmmz-5250. The documents seem 18 to just have one "M" rather than two. 19 Does that refresh your memory as to this 20 product? 21 A. what was the number you originally gave 22 me? 23 Q. BMZ-5250 Brown 135. 24 A. I'm familiar with -- somewhat familiar 25 with BMZ-5250. DMartino, carlo--vol. II, Newport News page 162 1 Q. And do you recall that that's a product 2 containing long fiber African asbestos? 3 A. Yes, I do. 4 Q. Do you recall what percentage of . 5 asbestos that product contained? 6 A. I think it was about 65percent. 7 Q. I think you're correct, one of the very 8 first products we discussed yesterday was 9 BM-250 Brown. Does this document that I'm showing 10 you -- and this is UCASB 01734009. Looking at that 11 document, would that indicate that BMZ-5250 was a 12 successor to BM-250? 13 A. Not -- well, it's the cross-over number. 14 when the method of designating products was changed, 15 this became this. 16 Q. All right. 17 A. The product didn't change. 18 MR. YARBOROUGH: when you say "this 19 became --" say it out loud. 20 A. In other words, thenomenclature system 21 was changed somewhere around -- I think in the '50s. 22 The old numbers were designated this way. The new 23 numbers under the new system, in this case, became 24 this. 25 Q. All right, so BM-250 and BMZ-5250 are DMartino, carlo--vol. II, Newport News page 163 1 essentially the same product, just made during 2 different time periods? 3 A. That's right. 4 Q. And -- 5 A. Now, that mayhave been what you were 6 saying. I wasn't sure -- 7 Q. it's better to have it clear. 8 And yesterday when we were talking about 9 BM-5250 Brown, if you remember, that was a document 10 you looked at, and it indicated on a thousand-pound 11 formula it was 65 percent asbestos plus or minus 12 2 percent. 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. And so you believe that the product that 15 we're now discussing would be approximately 16 65 percent asbestos. Correct? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. Now, in the disclosure that union 19 Carbide made to the united States Government that 20 we've been referring to throughout this deposition, 21 they indicate that that product consisted of 22 50 percent asbestos, would you agree with me that Page 12 martino in nn vol ii 23 that is inaccurate? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. It also says that that product was only DMartino, Carlo--vol. II, Newport News page 164 1 manufactured until the mid-'60s. That's not correct, 2 either. Would you agree with me? 3 A. What is the date on this? 4 Q. Let me give you - 5 A. I have no dates to refer to. 6 Q. I'll give you my entire file, as long as 7 you give it back. 8 A. Well, this is dated 1970. Okay. This 9 document shows that that product was deleted from our 10 product list in 1970. It says, "Made for selindeh 11 machine only." I don't know what that meant. 12 Q. I didn't hear your last -- 13 A. ' it says, "Make for Selindeh machine 14 only." I don't know what that means, but the -- this 15 is a deletion of the product. 16 Q. So we're talking about a document dated 17 July 27, 1970? 18 A. Right. 19 Q. Its Bates number isUCASB01734107, and 20 this document shows that product was deleted at that 21 time, is that correct? 22 A. That's correct. 23 Q. But it was still being made for 24 Selindeh, s-E-L-i-n-d-e-H, machine. So the product 25 was still being made -- DMartino, Carlo--vol. ll, Newport News page 165 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. -- in 1970? 3 A. According to that document. 4 Q. And according to the documents we looked 5 at this morning, at least in 1969 they were still 6 buying African blue asbestos. Correct? 7 A. That's correct. 8 Q. So would you agree with me that the 9 statement made by Union Carbide to the government to 10 the effect that this product was only manufactured 11 until the mid-'60s is incorrect? 12 A. Yes. 13' Q. Do you know what this product was used 14 for? 15 A. No. no, I don't. 16 Q. in the union carbide submission, they 17 indicate that it was for a high-impact and 18 heat-resistant application, would that be your 19 understanding? 20 A. For the black -- or for the natural, 21 yes. The brown, I don't know. 22 Q. is this a product that would be 23 appropriate to use in electrical switch gear? 24 A. The brown, I don'tknow. 25 Q. why does the brown trouble you? DMartino, Carlo--vol. II, Newport News page 166 1 A. Normally the switch gear is black. Page 13 martino in nn vol ii 2 Q. is there a reason for that? 3 A. The only place I see brown is, you know, 4 like, over there. There may be brown switch gear, 5 but I've never seen it. 6 MR. YARBOROUGH: By "switch gear," Mike, 7 could you be more specific on that, because it seems 8 like he was thinking of different things than maybe 9 you are. 10 Q. well, why don't you tell me what you're 11 thinking of, because when I get in the field of 12 electronics, I'm not very articulate. 13 A. Switch gear, to me, means these boxes 14 with -- that you have in your control panel in the 15 basement, or in the house, and it's where you put -- 16 slide your circuit breakers into, so it's a complex 17 shape with ribs in it, and they're industrial sizes 18 or bigger. 19 Q. Have you ever talked to customers about 20 making switch gear, switchboards for industrial use? 21 A. Switch gear for industrial use? 22 Normally, whether it was industrial or residential, I 23 can't recall whether it ever really came up. 24 Q. Let me change my question a little bit. 25 we represent a number of people who were OMartino, carlo--vol. n, Newport News page 167 1 electricians at the Newport News Ship Building and 2 Dry-Dock company. At that company, they built their 3 own switchboards. 4 My understanding is that other shipyards 5 would buy them from General Electric or westinghouse, 6 and we've had a number of clients down there, some 7 who have been deposed, some of who will be deposed, 8 indicate they used Bakelite in building switchboards. 9 would Bakelite be an appropriate product to use in 10 building switchboards for marine use? 11 MR. YARBOROUGH: Now, I'm going to 12 object because of the use of the term "Bakelite" in 13 that -- 14 Q. I'm talking about phenolic molding 15 compounds, or molded phenolic compounds. 16 MR. YARBOROUGH: Made by union carbide? 17 Q. Made by Union Carbide. 18 A. when you say "switchboard," that implies 19 to me a panel, and what I described is what goes on 20 the panel, so if it's a complicated shape with ribs 21 and so forth -- and I didn't bring pictures of it 22 with me today, it's molded. If it's something that 23 can be cut out of a piece -- like a piece of plywood, 24 then it's a laminate, and that's made by a different 25 process. OMartino, carlo--vol. II, Newport News page 168 1 Q. Well, phenolic molding compounds can be 2 made in the shapes of bars, for example, correct? 3 A. A -- 4 Q. A bar, like a half-inch-by-half-inch bar 5 of some length? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. A molded bar? 8 A. Yes. Page 14 martino in nn vol ii 9 Q. As a matter of fact, you molded bars for 10 the purpose of doing tests all the time, didn't you? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. And you could mold Bakelite -- I'm 13 talking about phenolic molding compound -- in the 14 shape of a tube, could you not? 15 A. A solid tube, not a hollow tube. Or, it 16 can be done, but it's not being done commercially. 17 Q. I'm talking about in the '50s and '60s. 18 A. The hollow tubes are made with 19 laminates. You wrapped around the tube, and then you 20 cure the -- you wrap around a rod, and then you cure 21 the material in an oven, just like you make the flat 22 panels. You cure those in a flat press. 23 To take a molding material and extrude 24 it is -- we've done it, but it's a very slow process, 25 and it's not been commercialized. Martino, Carlo--vol. II, Newport News page 169 1 Q. Now, you can take a phenolic molding 2 compound and make it into a sheet, can you not, a 3 flat, square or rectangular piece of material? 4 A. we did it for 12-by-12 plaques. I have 5 never seen anybody do it commercially for a 6 36-by-36-inch sheet, for example. 7 Q. why not? 8 A. First of all, the product 9 specifications, which I've never seen one for a sheet 10 that calls for a molding material. I've only seen 11 laminate specifications. Secondly - 12 Q. Now, whose specifications are you 13 speaking of right now? 14 A. Military and nema's specifications, 15 National Electrical Manufacturing Association. 16 Q. what military specification are you 17 referring to? 18 A. There are military specifications for a 19 variety of laminates. 20 Q. There are for molding compounds, as 21 well? 22 A. Yes, but the molding compounds are for 23 the complex shapes. I've never seen a -- I can't 24 think of how to put it. I've just never seen it 25 done. OMartino, Carlo--Vol. II, Newport News page 1701 11 1 The other problem, too, is how do you 2 get a uniform distribution of material for a 3 three-foot-by-three-foot panel? You can do it, but 4 it's much simpler to go the laminate route. The 5 laminates can be punched. The molding material that 6 would be in a sheet form would not be -- would be too 7 brittle to be punched. You could - 8 Q. well, I've read quite a bit of -- well, 9 the documents I've read indicate that one of the 10 virtues of a molded phenolic material was its 11 machinability. is that correct? 12 A. Relative to what type of product? Steel 13 or -- 14 Q. A molded phenolic material in its final 15 form can be drilled. Correct? Page 15 martino in nn vol ii 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. Without doing damage to the rest of the 18 product. Is that correct? 19 A. That's correct. 20 Q.. as a matter of fact, part of your 21 testing was to drill molded material. Correct? 22 A. To drill -- 23 Q. Yes. 24 A. -- molded material? Only if we wanted 25 to meeaassuure tool wear, which is -- you know, where we Mart`ino, Carlo--vol. II, Newport News page 171 1 normally got some complaints. 2 Q. Well, we'll be coming to that document. 3 You would cut bars of Bakelite -- again, 4 I'm talking about molded phenolic material -- as part 5 of tests you did for things like izod strength. 6 Correct? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. You cut it with a bandsaw? 9 A. We had two ways of doing it. One was to 10 mold the parts directly so they did not have to be 11 cut, and that was in a family mold, which we'd make a 12 tensile bar, a flexural bar, disk, all in one shot. 13 That took, let's say for purpose of discussion, five 14 pounds material, because you had to throw away 15 whatever connected all these different parts. If we 16 only had one pound of material, then we couldn't do 17 that. It would be too much -- and we may not have 18 needed all those other parts, so you only mold the 19 plaque, and then you have the laboratory cut the 20 piece out that you want, and so it was done either 21 way, depending on the situation. 22 Q. Let me think which of those avenues I 23 want to follow up on here. 24 MR. YARBOROUGH: Can I ask him to 25 clarify one thing, Mike? Martino, Carlo--vol. II, Newport News page 1721 11 1 You said 12-by-12 earlier. You're 2 referring to the phenolic molding compounds. Are you 3 referring to 12-inch-by-12-inch? 4 the witness: Yes. 5 MR. YARBOROUGH: Or 12-feet-by-12-feet? 6 THE WITNESS: no, no, 12-inch. I'm glad 7 you pointed that out. 8 MR. YARBOROUGH: And -- 9 MR. WARD: You can have your turn later. 10 I'll give you one, but not more. You111 have your 11 chance. 12 Q. So one of the things you could probably 13 testify at trial is if one of our clients has 14 identified a flat sheet, let's say a three-by-three 15 sheet, and they've identified it as Bakelite, I 16 assume your testimony is going to be, then, that it's 17 not a molded material, is that correct? 18 A. That's correct. 19 Q. And your testimony would be that it's 20 most likely a laminated product. Is that correct? 21 A. That's correct. 22 Q. If we have a client who identifies using Page 16 martino in nn vol ii 23 Bakelite in the form of bar stock, let's say a 24 quarter-inch square, half-inch square -- I don't 25 remember what the testimony is, and I don't know what OMartino, carlo--vol. II, Newport News page 173 1 it will be -- is it going to be your testimony that 2 that would not be a molded material? 3 A. I would say it would be most likely a 4 laminate, because there1s a military specification 5 for laminates, lists also rods and tubes, the same 6 specification. 7 Q. do you know the number on that 8 specification? 9 A. no, I don't. I happened to see it on 10 the internet when I was looking up some information. 11 Q. Let me see if I can dig that one out. 12 don't know if I have that in my box. Let me come 13 back to that. I don't want to interrupt right now. 14 A. So I've never seen it done with the 15 rods, but it's listed there. 16 Q. You have never seen it done? 17 A. I've never seen the rods manufactured. 18 . Q. By one of your customers? 19 A. Right. 20 Q. But you routinely did that for testing 21 purposes. Correct? 22 A. Not a round rod, no. 23 Q. I'm just talking about a square rod. 24 A. Oh, square rods. I'm sorry. 25 Q. I was calling it a bar. I don't know OMartino, Carlo--vol. II, Newport News page 174 1 what the appropriate terminology is. 2 A. All right. Well, I was thinking of a 3 round shape. 4 A square piece, we would cut out of a 5 plaque, if necessary, yes. 6 Q. Now, I may have asked this, again, 7 before, but let me be clear what your testimony is 8 going to be. 9 If there's testimony that a product was, 10 let's say, a half-inch-by-a-half-inch square bar of 11 unknown length, a foot, two feet -- I don't know 12 what -- I can't remember what the testimony is on 13 that -- can you rule out that that is a molded 14 phenolic material? 15 A. I'd have to think about that. 16 Q. You'll probably have a week or so to do 17 that. so 18 Ai Yeah, I would like to think about it. 19 Q. I should have waited until the last day. 20 A. Yeah, I want to think about that. 21 Q.. The bottom line is, I'm interested in 22 getting to the truth of the matter. These are new 23 products, for me, at least, and I want to understand 24 what your testimony is going to be at trial. 25 MR. YARBOROUGH: There's not a question OMartino, carlo--vol. II, Newport News page 175 1 pending. Page 17 martino in nn vol ii 2 Q. can we agree to come back to that 3 question when we meet again? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. And there may be some more testimony to 6 talk about at that point. 7 Let me get back on my trail here. 8 Actually, there are just a couple other 9 questions I want to ask you before I get back to our 10 review of the asbestos-containing Bakelite materials. 11 You say that sheets, if there are 12 anything larger than a square foot, would most likely 13 be a laminate, is that correct? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. Now, union Carbide sold Bakelite resins, 16 phenolic resins, to companies that made laminates. 17 is that correct? 18 A. That's correct. 19 Q. would you sell to westinghouse, for 20 example? 21 A. Westinghouse made its own resin and 22 manufactured Micarta laminates for a while, and then 23 they went out of business, whether we -- and I 24 assume, since they made Mi carta, they also made 25 industrial laminates, because they were in the Martino, Carlo--vol. II, Newport News page 176 1 electrical parts business. 2 when they went out of business, I don't 3 know if we started selling them resin or not. it's 4 possible. 5. Q. One thing I can tell by looking at union 6 Carbide documents is you guys kept a close eye on 7 your competitors. Correct? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. You were watching what products they had 10 out there. You were always trying to get customers 11 from them, et cetera. 12 who were the primary competitors in the 13 phenolic molding compound business? And I'll limit 14 that to the time you were working in that field. 15 A. Durez was number one. They had the 16 dominant market position from 1954 on, and they're 17 still in the business. 18 Q. So when you say from 1954 on, are you 19 using that date because that's when you ail had that 20 explosion and fire? ' 21 A. Yes, yes. Prior to 1952, we had the 22 major share. 23 Q. So from the time Bakelite was first 24 patented in 1909, until 1952, Bakelite, and 25 subsequently union Carbide, were the leaders in the Martino, Carlo--vol. II, Newport News page 1771 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 1 field of molded phenolic compounds. Correct? 2 A. in many of -- yes, in many of the 3 so-called Bakelite product applications, up until 4 1927, we had it all, and then the patents ran out. 5 But they maintained a dominant position, if gradually 6 losing business, but dominant position until -- in 7 molding material until 1952. 8 Q. And then you said Durez became the Page 18 martino in nn vol ii 9 leader at that point, who was number two? 10 A. We became number two. 11 Q. And, again, all these questions, I'm 12 just talking about phenolic molding compounds. 13 A. Okay, yeah, we became number two. 14 Number three was Plastic Engineering. 15 Q. Otherwise known as plenco? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. Sheboygan, Wisconsin. Right? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. I grew up in Koehler, Wisconsin. 20 A. Yeah. And they're still in the 21 business. 22 Q. Yes. I know the Bratzes. 23 A. You know -- 24 Q. . The p.erson who owned that company, 25 Mr. Ralph Bratz. Do you know him? OMartino, Carlo--vol. II, Newport News page 178 , 1 A. i know the name. 2 Q. who was number four? 3 A. I think it was Reichold. And General 4 Electric, and I'm not sure whether -- they could be 5 reversed there, but I think Reichold was better 6 than GE. 7 Then you had companies that made the 8 high-impact materials. Fiber-Rite was one of the 9 leaders. They made glass-reinforced -- you know, the 10 very fibrous type, sisal reinforced. 11 And Rogers Corporation, also, made some 12 of those products. Those two had a different process 13 than the other four -- five, rather. 14 For a while, westinghouse also made 15 molding materials. 16 Q. Theirs was called Moldarta? 17 A. I think so. I'm not certain of that. 18 Q. At some point they dropped out of that 19 business? 20 A. Yes, they did. I'm not sure Moldarta 21 was -- I saw the Durephene name somewhere in the 22 literature, it could have been Durephene, also. I 23 don't know. 24 Q. And these companies that you discussed, 25 they would carry a comparable line of products to DMartino, Carlo--vol. II, Newport News page 179 . 1 what union carbide had? 2 A. The top -- the top five. 3 Q. The top five? 4 A. Right, and also westinghouse, when it 5 made product, would have been similar to the others. 6 Q. And you would often look at a Durez 7 product and say, we're going to make a product that 8 beats that one. correct? 9 A. Yes, yes. 10 Q. And they'd do the same to you? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. it was a very competitive industry? 13 A. Very. That was the reason it was 14 difficult to make money. 15 Q. Do you know what the relative market Page 19 martino in nn vol ii 16 shares were ini let's say, 1965, just -- you know, 17 mid-'60s, what sort of market share did union Carbide 18 have in the phenolic molding materials? 19 A. I happened to see something for the 20 years '68, '69, and at that time it was 17 percent 21 for Union carbide and close to 50 percent -- I mean, 22 just a shade under 50 percent for Durez, maybe 48, 23 49. I think plenco was 12. Reichold or GE were 24 eight. I think it was Reichold, eight, and GE - 25 well, no, GE - Martino, carlo--vol. II, Newport News page 180 1 MR. YARBOROUGH: He just asked you about 2 Union Carbide. 3 Q. I would have stopped you if I wanted to. 4 saves me from having to talk too much. 5 All right, well, that gives me an idea. 6 All right. I'm going back to the review 7 of products. The next product that's on my list is 8 8MG-5261. Are you familiar with that product? 9 A. The number is familiar. I don't recall. 10 Q. Well, we talked about it to some extent 11 yesterday. I think this is another situation where 12 there's a cross-over number. 13 I'd like you to look at a document that 14 is marked, or Bates numbered, 906273, last six 15 digits, and tell me what the asbestos content of that 16 product is. 17 A. 49.8. 18 Q. And the type of fiber, is that listed? 19 A. it doesn't show, it says 18-B. 20 Q. And, again, I'm just going to show you a 21 document that's Bates numbered 906233, and from 22 looking at that, can you tell what this product was 23 previously called? 24 A. BM-261 Black. 25 Q. now, when you testified previously about DMartino, Carlo--Vol. II, Newport News page 181 1 the number of asbestos-containing products you 2 remembered, is this a product you did not recall at 3 that time? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. And is it also true that this product is 6 not on Union carbide's submission that they made to 7 the united States Government? 8 A. No, it's not. 9 Q. And you don't have any personal 10 knowledge about what this product was used for? 11 A. no, I do not. 12 Q. I'm trying to find a document to prove 13 this, but let me just ask you to accept -- maybe I 14 shouldn't ask you to do that. Strike that. 15 The documents that I have for this 16 product indicate who some of the customers were, at 17 least gives a half a dozen or so on the document 18 that's Bates numbered 906301 and the number after 19 that. 20 One of the companies listed is Kellogg 21 Switchboard and Supply company. Are you familiar 22 with that company? Page 20 martino in nn vol ii 23 A. No. 24 Q. One of the customers for this product is 25 listed as being Carborundum Company. Are you Martino, Carlo--vol. II, Newport News page 182 1 familiar with that company? 2 A. Carborundum? I think they're a grinding 3 wheel manufacturer. I don't know why they would use 4 that. 5 Q. Another customer is Eclipse Pioneer 6 Division of Bendix Aviation Corporation, do you have 7 any knowledge about what they would use this type of 8 material for? 9 A. No. This document is dated 1954, so I 10 don't -- I was in a different business at that time. 11 Q. The next product is bmma-5280 Black 25. 12 Are you familiar with that product? 13 A. That number sounds familiar. That's 14 about it. 15 Q. I have a document, it's dated May 20th, 16 1963. it's a request for transfer of the material I 17 just mentioned to final manufacturing status, and 18 you're the group leader on the document, could you 19 take a look at this document and let me know what the 20 asbestos content is of the product? 21 A. I don't see a formulation. 22 Q. Let me give you a separate document, 23 then. 24 A. Oh, here it is. 25 Q. is that another one where you have to do Martino, carlo--vol. II, Newport News page 183 1 math? 2 A. Yeah. Oh, 2000-pound mixes. So 3 roughly -- let's see, plasticity Grade 9. 4 MR. YARBOROUGH: if you need a 5 calculator or something, we'll get you one. I don't 6 want you guessing. 7 A. well, say, Grade 12, 400 over 2000. 8 Q. About 20 percent? _ 9 A. Right. 10 Q. I nave a document, Bates No. 937290, 11 which they did the math for us, and it seems to 12 indicate that the product -- 13 A. 16 and a half. 14 15 Q. A. N21o,. 21 percent. 16 Q. RM-18-Q. Does that appear to be 17 correct? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q.. is this a product that you remembered 20 when you testified previously? 21 A. No, I did not. 22 Q. Is this product on any of the 23 disclosures from Union carbide to the government? 24 A. No, it's not. 25 Q. The next product I have are a series of Martino, Carlo--Vol. II, Newport News page 184 1 the same number product. The top one is BMMA-5303 Page 21 martino in nn vol ii 2 Black 25. My notes show that is a product that union 3 Carbide mentioned in their disclosure. 4 A. Yes, it is. 5 Q. is that one you had mentioned in your 6 prior testimony? . 7 A. In my third deposition, I think I did. 8 I mean -- yeah, third deposition, I think I did. it 9 was also on the list that we went over yesterday. 10 Q. On Martino Exhibit 5, that letter that 11 was done by Mr. Kipp, this product is listed as 12 containing 37.3 percent asbestos. Could you 13 determine if that's correct? 14 A. There's also a 33.1. 15 Q. There's a number of different 16 formulations that all have the number 5303, and they 17 have different asbestos contents, is that correct? 18 A. Here, there are two, and there's a 19 difference shown of 4 percent. 20 MR. YARBOROUGH: Is that right? 21 A. Yeah, 37 and 33. 22 MR. YARBOROUGH: No, you're reading that 23 wrong. The one beneath that is a different product 24 number. Right? 25 THE WITNESS: That's 0. Martino, Carlo--vol. II, Newport News page 185 1 MR. YARBOROUGH: I don't think that's 2 lined up accurately. 3 THE WITNESS: And that's A. So A is 4 37.3 and D is 33.1. 5 Q. This is a heat-resistant material? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. And would you agree that both of those 8 numbers are in excess of 30 percent? Is that 9 correct? Asbestos content-wise. Both products 10 contain more than 30 percent asbestos. Correct? 11 A. That's correct. 12 MR. YARBOROUGH: According to the 13 documents. 14 MR. ward: According to the documents. 15 A. Do you have a formulation sheet other 16 than this? 17 MR. ward: I have a whole file. 18 MR. YARBOROUGH: lust let him ask the 19 questions. 20 THE witness: I just want to cross-check 21 that number. This shows 32. 22 Q. For which formulation of the product? 23 what are the four letters? 24 A. 18 -- 25 MR. YARBOROUGH: He's asking about that. Martino, Carlo--Vol. II, Newport News page 186 1 A. BMMA-5303, and it shows 32 percent. 2 This is BMMA, and it shows 37 percent, so there is a 3 discrepancy there. So it's a question of which you 4 want to take. 5 Q. I'm not going to quibble over that. I 6 don't have any other questions about 5303, since 7 those were disclosed. 8 The product bmrs-5306 Black 25 -- Black Page 22 martino in nn vol ii 9 15, is that a product that you recall? 10 A. NO. 11 Q. is this a productthat's on Union 12 carbide's disclosure? 13 A. 5306? CouldI look at that, please? 14 Q. Sure. 15 I'll withdraw my last question and ask 16 you a different question instead. 17 Based on your review of the documents 18 that are part of my file on this product, did that 19 product contain asbestos? 20 A. Yes, it did. 21 Q. And what percent of asbestos did it 22 contain? 23 A. 12 and ahalf percent. 24 Q. Does it give the fiber type, or the raw 25 material code, at least? Martino, Carlo--Vol. II, Newport News page 187 1 A. it's 18 -- I think it's either 0 or Q. 2 It's asbestos floats. 3 Q. And is the customer indicated? 4 A. It's for transmission rings. I recall 5 that now. 6 MR. YARBOROUGH: Let's identify this. 7 MR. ward: why don't you go ahead and do 8 it. I'm tired of reading those numbers. 9 MR. YARBOROUGH: The document being 10 referred to is 937338 through 937425. 11 A. I don't know ir that was ever 12 commercialized. 13 Q. You're not sure if it was sold? 14 A. it was tested, I believe, in that 15 application. I don't remember whether we got any 16 orders for it. 17 Q. This is not listed -- this is a product 18 formulation and condensed manufacturing instruction, 19 as opposed to a tentative product formulation. This 20 went into manufacturing status. Correct? 21 A. we may have made some, we would have 22 had to fill that out to make some in manufacturing, 23 and tested it. what I don't know is whether we ever 24 got the business, and that's why I -- I would have to 25 see whether it shows up in any other documents as a QMartino, Carlo--Vol. II, Newport News page 188 1 sale. But that is a possibility, that we never got 2 the business. It took a long time to get approval. 3 Q. Approval from whom? 4 A. Automotive industry. I don't remember 5 whether it was GM or Ford that we were working with. 6 I think it was GM. 7 Q. On the first page, it also lists 8 Lundstrom Plastics and various other customers. So 9 would that indicate to you that that product was sold 10 commercially? " 11 A. That would indicate to me that those 12 were the customers we were dealing with. I don't 13 know where that went. 14 Q. Let me try to summarize it. This is a 15 product that was accepted by Manufacturing? Page 23 martino in nn vol ii 16 A. No, the acceptance would be a letter 17 from Manufacturing saying this product is accepted, 18 and they would then take over the responsibility for 19 it. 20 Q. But this would be -- if it hadn't been 21 accepted for transfer, you wouldn't have a product 22 formulation, would you? You would have something 23 called a tentative product formulation? 24 A. No, we had to make out those sheets 25 to -- for anything we made in the manufacturing OMartino, carlo--vol. II, Newport News page 189 1 operation, even if we were responsible for 2 supervising the production run. Once we made enough 3 runs to satisfy Manufacturing that the product could 4 be run in their facilities and meet their standards, 5 they then would write a letter of acceptance that 6 they would take over, and it's thereby transferred to 7 the Manufacturing Department. 8 Q. I've seen many of those documents. 9 A. I don't -- you know, if you run across 10 one, that would indicate it didn't go commercial. 11 Q. in any event, this is not a product that 12 you recalled when you testified previously, is that 13 correct? 14 A. That's correct. 15 Q. . And this is also a product that's not 16 listed on union carbide's disclosure, is that 17 correct? 18 A. That's correct. 19 MR. ward: Off the record. 20 (A discussion takes place off the 21 record.) 22 (A recess is taken for lunch.) 23 Good afternoon, Mr. Martino. Had a good 24 lunch? 25 A. Yes, very good. Martino, Carlo--Vol. II, Newport News page 190 1 Q. I want to revisit some of the things we 2 were talking about in the morning. I found a few 3 documents I wanted to ask you about. 4 Let me mark this first document as an 5 exhibit. This will be Martino No. 10. 6 (Martino-10, Purchase Order dated 7 11/23/70, is received ana marked for identification.) 8 Q. Mr. Martino, this is a purchase order 9 from Newport News Ship Building and Dry-Dock company. 10 it's dated November 23rd, 1970. 11 i'll let you take a look at it and then 12 I'm going to ask you a few questions about it. I 13 don't have an extra copy of this, so I'm going to 14 have to share this with you. 15 The purchase order is directed to Reed 16 Plastics Material corporation in Norfolk, Virginia. 17 Do you have any familiarity with that company? 18 A. NO. 19 Q. Do you know whether they're a molder of 20 products, or simply a distributor? 21 A. Let me just take a look. 22 MR. YARBOROUGH: I know I have Page 24 martino in nn vol ii 23 continuing objections, but I just want to continually 24 renew my objections to these questions based on form 25 and lack of foundation. Martino, Carlo--vol. II, Newport News page 191 1 A. I never had anything to do with them 2 before. 3 Q. The purchase order refers to a rod, 4 comma, Bakelite, colon, for shorting probes, and then 5 it refers to as being one and three-quarter-inch 6 diameter by four-foot long molded. There's several 7 questions I have with regard to this. 8 First of all, does this satisfy you that 9 a molded rod can be made out of Bakelite? 10 MR. YARBOROUGH: Again, I'll object just 11 to the use of the term "Bakelite" because it is a 12 generic term, and can be used to describe both 13 laminates and molding compounds, some of which 14 contain asbestos and some of which don't. 15 Q. well, first of all, this does indicate 16 that Newport News is purchasing a product in a molded 17 form, is that correct? 18 A. That's correct. 19 Q. And the rod is one and three-quarters 20 inch in diameter, correct? 21 A. That's correct. 22 Q. And it's indicated as being four feet 23 long, is that correct? 24 A. That's correct. 25 Q. And they are using the word "Bakelite." Martino, Carlo--Vol. II, Newport News page 192 1 isn't it true that Bakelite is a registered trade 2 name by Union Carbide? 3 A. That surprises me. 4 Q. why does it surprise you? 5 A. Because I'm not aware of anybody who has 6 been licensed to use the name, the trade name 7 Bakelite, and it surprises me that they are. 8 MR. YARBOROUGH: Just answer his 9 questions. 10 Q. well, if a company buys your product and 11 molds it, they're entitled to refer to it as 12 Bakelite, are they not? 13 A. Not officially, no. Not at all. None 14 of our customers -- this is the first time I've seen 15 that. None of our customers were authorized to use 16 the name Bakelite on their packaging. 17 Q. what would they call tne plastic? 18 A. Their own product. You know, a 19 laminate, or like Formica would have Formica. 20 Q. Let's talk about molding compounds. 21 A. Molding compounds, Square D is Square D 22 on its parts, either molded in or a label on them. 23 And this could be a laminate material. 24 Q. Does it not say "molded" there? 25 A. Yes, but rods are made from laminate OMartino, Carlo--vol. ii, Newport News page 193 1 stock and molded, it says canvas base, and we don't Page 25 martino in nn vol ii 2 make any material with canvas. That's my tip-off - 3 Q. The use here is for a shorting probe. 4 correct? 5 A. "For a shorting probe." I don't know 6 what that is. 7 Q. All right. So you believe that this 8 represents a laminated product rather than a molded 9 product? 10 A. it's a laminated product to begin with, 11 which has been cut in strips and molded into this 12 rod. That's one of the processes that you use to 13 make -- it's been used for many years. 14 Q. Can you describe that for me again? You 15 say a laminate that you cut in strips and tnen mold? 16 A. Mold it, yeah, you shape it to a round 17 rod. I've never seen it done, so I have difficulty 18 describing it, but I have seen it mentioned in the 19 literature. I've seen laminates that you do mold 20 from laminate stock into this shape. 21 Q. I thought once a thermosetting plastic 22 was formed, it could not be reshaped. 23 A. After it's fully cured, but with a -- in 24 this particular case, and, here again, I'm getting 25 into an area that I have not seen personally. I'd Martino, Carlo--vol. II, Newport News page 194 1 have to do some searching to get the whole process. 2 if you don't cure it completely, just like our 3 molding material, you still have some flow left to 4 make a shape, and then when that is cured, you cannot 5 meltit. 6 Q. I'm just trying to play that back in my 7 head. 8 A. But that's the tip-off, canvas base, we 9 don't make canvas molding material. I don't know 10 anybody else who does. 11 Q. I was assuming the canvas base was 12 something that you hold the probing rod with. 13 A. No, canvas base is the reinforcement 14 that is used to form the laminate. 15 Q. I understand. 16 A. And it could be paperbase, canvas base, 17 linen base. 18 Q. Asbestos paper, asbestos cloth, it 19 could be any of those? 20 A. Anything. 21 Q. But that's not something Union Carbide 22 provided? 23 A. No, no. Now, I -- 24 Q. You're curious, I takeit, by the use of 25 the name Bakelite? DMartino, Carlo--vol. II, Newport News page 195 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. I hate to tell you, we got a whole bunch 3 of documents where they did that. 4 A. I can understand why. It's become a 5 generic name. 6 Q. Well, it's generic to one sense, but 7 it's also a registered trade name which has a very 8 specific meaning. Page 26 martino in nn vol ii 9 A. That's correct. 10 Q. Proprietary to union Carbide. Correct? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. while we're on thesubject of things we 13 found having to do with Newport News in documents, we 14 found some documents relating to a product called 15 microballoons. Are you familiar with those? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. I have no idea what a microballoon is. 18 can you tell me what that is? 19 A. It's a very small phenolic resin sphere, 20 almost looks like sand, but it's very uniform in 21 diameter and it's sort of like little ball bearings, 22 we didn't invent it. I think an oil company did, but 23 we got a license to make it, and it is -- tne primary 24 use that I'm aware of is the use in storage tanks for 2__5 oil and gas facilities, and what it does is reduce OMartino, Carlo--vol. II, Newport News page 196 1 the evaporation rate, the evaporation of whatever is 2 being -- 3 Q. Because it's lying on top of the 4 surface? 5 A. That's right. Now, there may be other 6 uses, but I don't know what they are. 7 Q. I'm sorry, I can't put my hand on the 8 purchase order I saw that on. You say it was 9 phenolic material. correct? 10 A. lust phenolic resin. 11 . Q. No fillers? 12 A. No fillers. 13 Q. Another thing I saw, I was curious about 14 in documents, was a machine sold by union Carbide 15 called a union melt machine, do you have any idea 16 what a union melt machine is? 17 A. May I see that? 18 This is the Lindy Division, which had 19 nothing to do with plastics. 20 Q. What did the Lindy Division -- 21 A. compressed gas. it's now Praxair, 22 P-R-A-x-A-l-R. It's -- their primary products are 23 compressed gases of all kinds. 24 Q. Did union Carbide make equipment for 25 molding plastics? OMartino, Carlo--Vol. II, Newport News page 197 1 A. No. 2 Q. Who made that sort of equipment that 3 molders would use to mold phenolic compounds? 4 A. HPM. I don't remember what the hpm 5 stands for, but those were the initials on the 6 equipment. That's terrible. I lived with molding 7 machines 48 years. 8 Q. wellj you didn't know someone was going 9 to ask you about it 48 years later. 10 A. And there's some famous ones out there. 11 Q. That's okay. 12 As far as you know, union Carbide never 13 made that sort of equipment? 14 A. No, never. Never. 15 Q. Okay. Page 27 martino in nn vol ii 16 A. Five minutes from now, I may think of 17 it. 18 Q. Well, let me know if you do. 19 I want to go back and talk a little bit 20 more about sheets of plastic. You indicated that 21 with a molded phenolic material, if you were making a 22 flat sheet, about 12-inch square was about the 23 limits. 24 A. You could make it bigger if you wanted 25 to. Technically it's possible, whether it's OMartino, Carlo--vol. II, Newport News page 198 1 commercially -- it can compete with what's done by 2 some other process, and I've never seen it 3' commercialized. 4 Q. I think the dimensions either you 5 mentioned or I mentioned, I can't remember who 6 brought it up first, was a three-foot-by-three-foot 7 sheet. 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. Could, technically, putting aside 10 whether you think it's feasible or cost-effective, 11 but technically speaking, can you make a 12 three-foot-by-three-foot sheet out of molded phenolic 13 compounds? 14 A. You can, yes. with difficulty, but you 15 can. 16 Q. What would the difficulties be? 17 A. Getting a uniform distribution of all 18 that granular material over that surface so that when 19 you compress on it, you don't end up with more 20 material in one place than another. You don't get a 21 wavy sheet. You'll get a little flow from the 22 material, but not a lot; whereas with a laminate, you 23 can control your thickness very easily. The 24 pre-distribution of material is already done for you 25 when you put your fabric or paper base down through OMartino, Carlo--vol. II, Newport News page 199 1 the liquid resin and dried it. You just cut the 2 sheet in size, stack up the sheets, slide it into the 3 press, close it, out comes your molded piece. 4 Q. if you were going to make a 5 three-by-three -- three-foot-by-three-foot sheet out 6 of a molded product, you could use a compression 7 molding process? Again, I know you said - 8 A. That is the only way, I think, you could 9 do it. And you'd have to have a press that size, you 10 know, a little bigger than that size. And that means 11 you have to have molds that you can slide in and 12 slide out, whereas a laminate, you don't need to 13 contain the size. You just have to have a plate on 14 the top and plate on the bottom. The material 15 doesn't -- you know, it oozes out a little bit on the 16 side. 17 But with a molded part, you have to keep 18 all that granular material from spilling over. So 19 you have technical difficulties to overcome. You'd 20 nave to make a recessed mold where you put the 21 material in and put the plate on top of it, which is 22 how we make the 12-by-12. Page 28 martino in nn vol ii 23 So you're dealing with a heavy piece of 24 metal that you're sliding into the press. This is 25 what makes it costly, ana probably why I haven't seen Martino, Carlo--vol. II, Newport News page 200 1 any -- anything like that done commercially. 2 Q. I want to talk a little bit about 3 appearances of these sort of products that we're 4 taIking about. 5 First of all, if you had a laminated 6 sheet, and I don't care what the dimensions are - 7 we'll use a foot-by-foot for both examples. If you 8 had a laminated product, what would it look like? 9 And by laminated, I'm talking about one with phenolic 10 resin and one that was perhaps intended for 11 electrical use. 12 A. Have you ever -- I don't know if this is 13 a laminate here or not. I think this is wood. The 14 top of your kitchen counter, or a vanity, if you have 15 what the trade calls Formica, turn it over on the 16 back, or you go into a lumberyard or Home Depot, ask 17 for a Formica laminate, and look on the back, and 18 that's the paper base phenolic impregnated paper 19 that's built up to make an industrial laminate, and 20 just -- it will be that color. 21 Now, the color will vary with, you know, 22 manufacturer and the resin they use, but it will 23 generally be sort of a brownish shade, various -- 24 reddish brown. I've seen more of some chocolate 25 brown, but most of them are reddish brown. That's Martino, carlo--vol. II, Newport News ' page 201 1 exactly the same product, with the exception of the 2 resin content, that you'll find in an industrial 3 laminate. The industrial laminate won't have the 4 decorative surface. 5 Q. I'm thinking if you were using a 6 phenolic sheet, laminated sheet in the shipyard for 7 electrical application, what color would you expect 8 that to be? 9 A. Brown. 10 Q. A dark brown, a honey brown? what kind 11 of brown? 12 A. It will depend on the manufacturer and 13 the resin they use, but it will be various shades of 14 dark brown, from reddish to chocolate brown, maybe 15 even -- mostly a reddish brown, I'd say. 16 Q. Did it also come in black? 17 A. it can be made that way, and Ithink 18 I've seen some --a distributor list black in his 19 literature. . 20 Q. But that was not the norm? The norm was 21 this reddish brown, you're speaking of? 22 A. Most of it was -- and that will be 23 called natural. There's no color whatsoever. 24 now, if the base is different than 25 paper, like linen or cotton or canvas, then the shade Martino, carlo--vol. II, Newport News page 202 1 you get is going to be a little different, and I Page 29 martino in nn vol ii 2 don't recall -- I've seen paper base, but I don't 3 remember seeing any of the others. 4 Q. How about a canvas base? 5 A. That's probably going to be a brown. I 6 haven't seen one. I haven't -- you know, I stopped 7 at an electrical parts store a week ago to see if I 8 can get some samples of industrial laminates to show 9 them what they looked like, and I couldn't get any. 10 It's a product that's sold just to the industry and 11 service. So I haven't been able to get a series of 12 samples to look at the various colors. 13 That is another reason why you'd go to a 14 laminate over a molded product, you can use tne 15 canvas and the glass mat, give you very high impacts. 16 The molding material we make can't go that high, so 17 you couldnTt -- you know, even if you could make the 18 sheet, you're not going to get the impact strength 19 range to work with that you can in the laminate. 20 Q. why is that? 21 A. The reinforcement, plus the 22 manufacturing process, you're grinding the particles 23 up into -- in molding into little, you know, 24 sand-like particles, coarse sand. So your fibers are 25 very short, in a laminate process, you -- you put in Martino, Carlo--Vol. II, Newport News page 203 1 a canvas sheet. You don't chop it up. It's there. 2 it doesn't get cut until you decide you want to form 3 something out of it. 4 Q. Now, these products that we've come 5 across, like BMZ-5250, that material wasn't 6 pulverized in a manufacturing process, was it? 7 A. That's correct. . 8 Q. That was a raw mix? 9 A. Raw mix, yes. 10 Q. And what would -- if you made that into 11 a sheet form, you know, like, say, 12 three-foot-by-three-foot, and half-inch thick, what 13 would that look like? or if you can't conceive of 14 it, you can do a square foot for me. 15 A. well, with that, if it's in natural, you 16 can see the fibers. 17 MR. YARBOROUGH: And if you know. I 18 mean, don't guess. He's asking if you know. I don't 19 want you to speculate or guess. 20 A. No, no, I'm just trying to -- again, I 21 think that the line of thought here is important to, 22 you know, show where the laminate is important. 23 Let me put it this way. if you have 24 trouble spreading out a molding -- granular molding 25 material in a three-foot-by-three-foot -- spreading Martino, Carlo--Vol. II, Newport News page 204 1 material out is like taking, say, insulation of your 2 attic and trying to spread it out over a three-foot 3 area and then compressing it, and since that has so 4 much asbestos in it, it's going to be -- and it's 5 all, you know, like feathers, it's going to be very 6 difficult to uniformly spread that out and make a 7 compression plaque. 12-by-12, you could manage to - 8 you know, you do it by hand. Page 30 martino in nn vol ii 9 Q. well, whatever size it was, what did it 10 look like when it was molded? 11 A. That, I don't remember. I'd have to 12 guess. 13 Q. Let's take your -- when you make a piece 14 of Bakelite, phenolic molding material -- and let's 15 start with the Black 25. Can you tell me what that 16 is going to look like when it's a finished product? 17 A. Black 25? 18 Q. Yes. 19 A. is that black there or not? 20 Q. I have a hard timetelling black from 21 brown. That's dark brown. 22 A. well, it's going to look a lot like 23 that. The material will take on the surface of the 24 mold, whatever the -- if it's a glossy mold, you'll 25 get a glossy surface. If it's a matte-finish mold, DMartmo, Carlo--vol. II, Newport News page 205 1 you'll get a matte finish. 2 Q. what do you mean by that? 3 A. Satin, you know, like dull paint versus 4 glossy paint. If you have sort of a mold surface 5 that is dull, that's what you'll get when you take 6 your piece out of the mold. 7 Q. So what you're saying, it did have a 8 variety of finishes to it. 9 A. Yes. You mold the finish on that you 10 want. You can even mold a pebble finish. .1 had a 11 toaster panel that had a pebble finish in the center 12 and the rest was glossy on the side. That's all done 13 in the mold, and then every piece comes out looking 14 exactly like that. 15 Q. Let's say you're going for a smooth 16 finish with aphenolic molded material, is it shiny 17 or is it dull in appearance? Do you know what I'm 18 looking for? well, is it shiny? 19 A. If the mold is highly polished and 20 shiny, the part that comes out of it will be shiny 21 just like the mold. 22 Q. Okay.. You said that asbestos was added 23 to products in certain instances to improve its 24 appearance, I believe, how did that change the 25 appearance by adding asbestos to the material? DMartino, Carlo--Vol. II, Newport News page 206 1 A. You'd have to put the pieces side by 2 side to see the difference, if you put them like 3 this,they'll both look very highly -- high gloss. 4 They'll look the same. You put them side by side and 5 get the light just right, the wood flour filled will 6 look just a little bit wavy, whereas this, you know, 7 high sheen, and doesn't take too much to get that. 8 Q. If you have a product that's like a lot 9 of them we've been talking about, that's 30, 40, 50 10 percent asbestos, is it really shiny then? 11 A. Once you got over a threshold value, you 12 know, a certain amount of it in there, the 13 difference -- and I'm talking with colorant, too, in 14 there. The differences you see between, say, 15 4 percent asbestos and 5 percent -- I mean, 15 Page 31 martino in nn vol ii 16 percent asbestos is -- you can't tell the difference 17 by eye. You'll get a high smooth gloss all the way 18 up to a hundred percent asbestos. 19 Q. Now, if I take a piece of -- 20 A. I mean, 50 percent asbestos. 21 Q. If I take a piece of molded phenolic 22 compound that has any amount of asbestos in it and I 23 cut it in half with a saw, and then I look at the 24 part that's been exposed by it being cut, what does 25 that surface look like? Martino, carlo--vol. II, Newport News page 207 1 A. well, first of all, it will be dull, 2 depending how -- it may even have rough edges, you 3 know, just like sawing a piece of lumber. You'll get 4 a rougn surface. And if you want it smooth, you're 5 going to have to sand it. so that it would be -- and 6 if tne product has been well made, you'll see a sort 7 of -- let's say it's grayish black. You should not 8 see any particles, if you have long fiber and you 9 have a lot of it in there, you might see some fiber. 10 That, I can't comment on because I haven't that 11 experience with the long-fiber-type material. 12 Q. So the surface that^s exposed when you 13 cut it will be a duller shade than the finished part. 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. And instead of being a dark black, would 16 it be more of a gray on the side then? 17 A. it would be a grayish black, yes, or 18 dull black. 19 Q. And in terms of -- 20 A. Say, like -- that's shinier -- Imean, 21 duller than that. 22 Q. we won't -- it's hard to describe colors 23 for the record. 24 And the texture of that cut edge would 25 be what? OMartino, carlo--Vol. II, Newport News page 208 1 A. That would depend on the saw you used. 2 if you used a fine-tooth saw and it was sharp, you 3 could get a very nice smooth surface. 4 Q. would it be uniform in appearance, or 5 would it be some sort of a pattern, or can you help 6 me on that? 7 A. If it's black, it will be uniform. If 8 it's brown, it will be uniform. If it's any colored 9 product, it will be uniform. 10 9. lump back to the laminated material, a 11 phenolic laminate, when you cut that in half, or 12 when you cut it, what does the exposed surface look 13 like on the cut edge? Do you actually see the layers 14 of the laminate? 15 A. No, you don't. Not at all. It looks 16 like one solid piece, at least with paper. 17 Q. How about glass mat? if I had a glass 18 mat that was laminated with a phenolic resin and I 19 cut it, what would the exposed surface look like? 20 MR. Yarborough: Don't guess, if you 21 know and you've seen it -- 22 A. No, I'm just trying to -- I don't know. Page 32 martino in nn vol ii 23 I've never done it. 24 Q. when you were group leader for 15 years, 25 you were in charge of laminated material, as well. Martino, Carlo--vol. II, Newport News page 209 1 correct? Laminating materials? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. That's correct? 4 A. Yes, of the resins. 5 Q. Of the resins, but you had goneout to 6 do calls on customers and you've seen finished 7 product. Correct? 8 .A. Um-hum. 9 Q. And you've never seen anexposedsurface 10 on the laminate? 11 A. I have not looked that carefully at 12 glass laminate. You know, I -- the bulk of my . 13 experience has been with the paper laminates, and I'm 14 not trying to evade your question. I'm trying to 15 think of another example that you could relate to. 16 Q. well, what I'm trying to get at is in 17 visual terms, if I -- how you distinguish a laminate 18 from a molded product. 19 A. well, of course, the sheet, sheet form, 20 that's the first thing you look at. It's going to 21 look like a piece of plywood, different thicknesses. 22 Q. other than the form. 23 A. You mean whether it had glass in it 24 or - 25 Q. Well, I think we've done a little bit DMartino, Carlo--vol. II, Newport News page 210 1 with the color. Again, if I have two square plaques, 2 or whatever you were calling them, and one is a 3 molded product and one is a laminated product, how am 4 going to tell the difference between the two 5 visually? 6 A. You're going to be looking at the 7 finished product? 8 Q. The finished product, yes. 9 . A. The finished product made for the 10 molding material is going to be an intricate shape. 11 Q. I'm asking you to assume that they're 12 both flat 12-by-12, 12-inch-by-12-inch plaques, same 13 shape. You're not going to be able to tell the 14 difference by shape in this scenario I'm setting up. 15 The shape is identical. 16 is there any other way that you can 17 visually determine which one is the molded material 18 and which one is the laminated material? And you can 19 cut it if you want. 20 A. The laminate will most.often be made in 21 a natural color, it is available in black, but most 22 of the laminates I've seen do not have color. That 23 will be the number-one difference. 24 Q. How about number two? 25 A. The reverse of that, we made very few Martino, Carlo--Vol. II, Newport News page 211 1 molding materials that didn't have any color in it. Page 33 martino in nn vol ii 2 There's just, I think, a couple in the mix. So now 3 you're left with if it has color, which is it. 4 Q. Someone brings me -- well, let me keep 5 the scenario the same, other than color, is there 6 anything about the appearance of the product which 7 you could -- products so that you can visually 8 distinguish them? 9 A. Most of the laminates I've seen are not 10 high-gloss surfaces. That doesn't mean they can't be 11 made that way, but you take a look -- look at the 12 back of Formica laminate. That's not high gloss. 13 It's dull. The easiest way would be for you and me 14 to go to Newport News and pick up some samples, and 15 then I could show you. 16 Q. I've been trying. I want to know how to 17 find it. 18 A. I'll pick it out for you. 19 Q. So we'll go down to an old oil tanker. 20 MR. YARBOROUGH: Just answer his 21 questions. 22 A. I'm serious about that. 23 MR. YARBOROUGH: Carlo, just wait and 24 answer his questions. All right? 25 the witness: okay, OMartino, carlo--vol. ii, Newport News page 212 1 MR. YARBOROUGH: Thanks. 2 Q. Let me see if I can get this straight. 3 if I have a piece of molded phenolic material that 4 has asbestos in it and I have a piece of laminated 5 phenolic laminate, and they're identical in shape, 6 and I cut both of them in half to look at the exposed 7 surfaces, I won't be able to tell much from doing 8 that in terms of determining which is which? 9 A. Paper-based versus -- paper-based 10 laminate versus -- 11 Q. Let me take that whole question off the 12 table and try to get it a little bit more specific. 13 My focus is primarily on electrical applications in a 14 marine environment, particularly in the building of 15 switchboards. So what type of lam -- if a laminated 16 material is going to be used in that application, 17 what would you expect it to be? 18 A. Most often paper-based. 19 Q. And what type of resin would you expect 20 it to be? would it be phenolic or would it be a 21 melamine, or what? 22 A. You have a choice of five, actually, 23 different resins: Phenolic, melamine, polyester, 24 epoxy, and that's it. Four. I don't remember any 25 others. QMartino, carlo--vol. Ii, Newport News page 213 1 Q. And that's true in the 1960s, or are you 2 talking about currently? 3 A. I think it is true in the 1960s -- well, 4 let me think back. 5 Yes, they were all available in the 6 '60s. 7 Q. And some of the ships that we're talking 8 about are large vessels, aircraft carriers, oil Page 34 martino in nn vol ii 9 tankers. They built big ships down at Newport News. 10 Do you have any knowledge on what type 11 of laminated material they would use to build 12 switchboards in that environment in the 1960s? 13 A. They would choose from that list I gave 14 you. 15 Q. what properties would they be looking 16 for? 17 A. It's going to vary depending on the 18 application. You've got different grades, different 19 electrical grades just in the paper-based laminates. 20 Q. Well, if you're making a breaker 21 barrier, for example, in a switchboard that handles, 22 I don't know, 4,000 volts, I think I've heard it 23 referred to, what type of material would you use in a 24 breaker barrier in that sort of set-up? 25 A. There should be specifications that Martino, Carlo--vol. II, Newport News page 214 1 state what grade should be used. 2 Q. when you say specifications, are you 3 talking about military specifications, or are you 4 speaking about specifications made by the designers, 5 electrical designers in the shipyard, or something 6 else? 7 A. I'm talking -- well, there are two 8 specifications, NEMA, National Electrical 9 Manufacturers Association, and there are 10 specifications that the military supplies, and they 11 mesh together. 12 in other words, there's a cross-over. 13 The designer should -- not should -- somewhere has to 14 state this is the grade of material to use; 15 otherwise, they're going to have a problem, and he 16 has to decide, does it nave to be paper-based, does 17 it have to be a melamine glass laminate, which is - 18 Q. Type, GME, right? That's the 19 designation for glass cloth melamine? 20 A. i don't know. I'd have to look it up. 21 Q. Now, if I get a drawing of a switchboard 22 or switch gear -- I donTt understand. They seem to 23 use those terms interchangeably -- and I see it's 24 type mfh, for example, that's going to mean it's a 25 molded phenolic with asbestos in it. Correct? Martino, carlo--vol. II, Newport News page 215 1 A. If you see a laminate, it will not 2 have -- . 3 Q. if I got a drawing and there's something 4 that says "breaker barrier," let's say, under the 5 list of materials,and in the other coiumn it says 6 "Type MFH," would you agree that that would be 7 referring to a molded phenolic material? 8 A. Yes. But that specification would be 9 for the molder of that part. The designer says it 10 has to conform with mfh such and such. That means 11 that whoever molds this intricate piece that goes 12 into the box, like, you know, where you slide your 13 breakers in, has to have a molding material that 14 meets that requirement and molds -- the mfh -- I've 15 never seen the mfh 14 something stamped on that Page 35 martino iri nn vol ii 16 piece. 17 Q. no, I'm not saying that. I'm saying if 18 I'm looking at a drawing of -- by the electrical 19 designers at the shipyard, and it says "Type MFH," 20 thatTs -- just an example, that would be referring to 21 a molded phenolic material? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. with mineral filler,correct? 24 A. Yes. . 25 Q. Are you familiar with -- on the other OMartino, carlo--vol. II, Newport News page 216 1 hand, if I saw something that said "Type GME," that 2 would be referring to a laminate, is that correct? 3 Or don't you know? . 4 A. I did know. 5 Q. I know we're going back a lot of years. 6 A. Yeah. I know how to find out, but I 7 don't remember what the exact nomenclature meant. I 8 still remember some of the nema regs, and even there, 9 I don't remember glass. I know XX, that's all paper 10 and different electrical grades. There will be 11 similar designations that cross over for military 12 spec. G should be -- is glass. I know that. M is 13 melamine. The third letter, I don't recall what that 14 is. E, I think it means electrical grade. And that 15 should be stamped on the panel. 16 Q. Stamped on the panel? 17 A. That the electrician cuts his pieces out 18 of, so he knows that that's what he's using. 19 9. is there any stamp placed on molded 20 phenolic compound? 21 A. All of the molded parts I've seen has 22 the manufacturer's name either molded into the piece, 23 or somehow on the piece, so you know who made it. 24 Square D has "Square D" on all its 25 parts. GE has "GE" on all its parts. I've never OMartino, carlo--vol. 11, Newport News page 217 1 seen "Bakelite" on those parts. 2 Q. I'm sorry. I'm having trouble keeping 3 track of what I asked you and what I haven't. I 4 think I'm going to go off this subject for a while. 5 lTm going to switch gears a little bit, 6 back to strictly talking about molded phenolic 7 materials. 8 we were talking earlier about cutting 9 bars of a molded phenolic, and I understand that's 10 something that your department would do in order to 11 test the materials that you were making, or 12 developing, is that true? 13 A. The physical testing department, in our 14 department, would do that. 15 Q. And where was that located in the 1960s? 16 A. Building 95, thirdfloor. 17 Q. And were you in charge of that 18 department? 19 A. NO. 20 Q. But that was part of research and 21 development? 22 A. Yes. Page 36 martino in nn vol ii 23 Q. Did you have occasion to go into 24 Building 95, the third floor? 25 A. Yes. OMartino, Carlo--vol. II, Newport News page 218 1 Q. How frequently would you do that? And 2 I'm talking specifically about the late '60s, early 3 '70s right now. 4 A. oh, it would vary, sometimes I wouldn't 5 be there for a month, and other times I might go up 6 there every week, it depends on what -- whether I 7 had some questions about results or not. 8 Q. And on that third floor, they had a 9 variety of equipment that could be used to machine 10 molded samples, is that correct? 11 A. They had equipment to prepare samples as 12 well as test samples. They were al1 in that area. 13 Q. They had a router? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. They had a notching machine?. 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. They had a milling machine? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. They had a bandsaw? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. They had a portable grinder? 22 A. That, I don't remember. 23 Q. Drill press? 24 A. Drill press? That, I don't remember, 25 either. OMartino, carlo- -Vol. II, Newport News page 219 1 Q. A sander? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. And a grinder? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. And am I correct in stating that pieces 6 of molded phenolic materials would be machined on 7 these pieces of equipment that we just identified? 8 A. . when the need arose. They --at that 9 point, they processed requests from all over R&D, 10 plus, you know, the two buildings, they'd get 11 samples, and they handled not just phenolic molding 12 materials. They handled anything people were working 13 on. 14 So they got plaques, Bakelite molding 15 material that were not already shaped, with a 16 request, "I want five tensile bars," and then they 17 would form that. They also might do the same thing 18 with a rigid thermoplastic. They get a plaque, say, 19 "I want five tensile bars." That got put through the 20 same equipment. So from day to day, from hour to 21 hour, whatever came in is what they worked on. 22 Q. Now, I believe earlier today, you 23 indicated that the only product made at Bound Brook 24 in the time period we're talking about, the '60s and 25 '70s, that had asbestos in it were the phenolic OMartino, carlo--vol. II, Newport News page 220 1 molding materials, is that correct? Page 37 martino in nn vol ii 2 A. That's correct, unless somebody was 3 doing some experimental work, new plastic ana, you 4 know, was curing -- looking into fillers for that 5 plastic. But it would have been strictly 6 experimental. 7 Q. Do you recall a time in 1969 when you 8 became aware of the fact that when they cut samples 9 of molded phenolic that had asbestos in it, that it 10 released fibers into the air and caused the air to be 11 contaminated with asbestos? 12 A. I was not aware of it, no. I've seen 13 that letter, so I - 14 Q. The letter you and I are both referring 15 to is dated April 17, 1969. Is that correct? 16 A. Not this letter, no, I didn't see. 17 Q. Oh. Well, let's look at this one. 18 A. it was the short one that I saw. 19 Q. I'll probably be getting to that, if 20 you haven't seen that before, why don't you take a 21 few moments to read it over, and then I'm going to 22 ask you some questions about it. 23 I'd like to mark this as Exhibit 11. 24 MR. YARBOROUGH: Just for the record, 25 I'll identify this, since it doesn't appear to have a Martino, Carlo--vol. II, Newport News page 221 1 Bates number, it is an internal correspondence from 2 Mr. L.L. Carpenter to T. Hagensli, h-a-g-e-n-S-l-i. 3 MR. ward: Here's a version with a Bates 4 number. 5 MR. YARBOROUGH: l'm sorry, it appears 6 to be Bates No. UCASB 00945424 through 5432. 7 (Martino-11, Internal correspondence 8 dated April 17, 1969, is received and marked for 9 identification.) 10 Q. Have you had a chance to review this 11 document? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. would you agree with methat this 14 document shows that when you cut asbestos-containing 15 molding compound with a bandsaw, it releases asbestos 16 into the atmosphere? 17 A. I'd like to see the air testing that was 18 done to -- 19 Q. So would I. 20 A. Because thisdoesn't tell me how they 21 arrive at that conclusion. 22 Q. I've been asking union Carbide for that 23 information, but I haven't gotten it yet. 24 well, let's just see what they say. 25 They say the tensile samples preparation area in Martino, carlo--vol. II, Newport News page 222 1 Building 95 in Bound Brook is at times contaminated 2 with asbestos dust. The dust is produced by a 3 bandsaw and two milling machines used to shape 4 tensile samples from plastic materials containing 5 asbestos. 6 now, you would agree that the plastic 7 material, they're talking about the phenolic molding 8 compound. Correct? Page 38 martino in nn vol ii 9 A. Yes, yes. 10 Q. The bandsaw is located in Room 365, and 11 the milling machine is located in Room 351. And 12 those are the areas we were discussing in 13 Building 95. Correct? It says so in the caption, at 14 least. 15 A. where are you reading? Building 95, 16 yes. Room numbers, I don't remember. 17 Q. But you said third floor. Right? 18 A. Third floor, yes. That would be the 19 three, yes. . 20 Q. it says that currently personnel are 21 wearing respirators to prevent inhalation of 22 asbestos-laden dust. So at least the author of this 23 document felt that the workers were being exposed to 24 asbestos by cutting this material. Correct? 25 A. That's the way it appeared, yes. Martino, Carlo--vol. II, Newport News page 223 1 Q. And it goes on from there. The document 2 speaks for itself, I guess, after that. 3 were you aware of this in 1969? 4 A. no, I wasn't contacted at all. 5 Q. The author of this document, 6 Mr. Hagensli, h-a-g-e-n-S-l-I, do you know who he is? 7 A. Hagensli. I don't know him, no. 8 Q. Do you know - 9 A. Oh, yeah, well, he's from Engineering, 10 so he must be an engineer in Engineering. 11 Q. But you don't personally know him? 12 A. NO. 13 Q. Do you know the recipient of this 14 letter? 15 A. Carpenter, 16 Q. who is he? 17 A. He was the associate director in charge 18 of that area and other areas of responsibilities. 19 Q. what was his area of expertise? was he 20 an administrator or scientist or an engineer? 21 A. In this position, he was administrator. 22 Q. can you identify any of the people who 23 received copies? 24 A. Lund was from the Safety Department. 25 McKinley was the plant physician. Martino, Carlo--vol. II, Newport News page 224 1 Q. And the other names, you're not familiar 2 with? 3 A. Schwartz, I don't remember what he was 4 doing. Bates, I don't recognize. I remember the 5 name Ferry, but I don't know what he was -- what his 6 responsibilities were. 7 Q. is Dr. McKinley still alive, to your 8 knowledge? 9 A. I don't know. 10 Q. is Mr. Lund stillalive, to your 11 knowledge? 12 A. No, I don't know. 13 Q. Now, in this letter,it's suggested that 14 they put an exhaust system on these pieces of 15 equipment, correct? Page 39 martino in nn vol ii 16 A. That's correct. 17 Q. And the attachments include diagrams of 18 the exhaust system. Correct? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. And on the second to the last page, they 21 have a diagram for the exhaust system for the milling 22 machine. Correct? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. And specifically it states that it's a 25 milling machine hood for high-toxicity materials, is OMartino, Carlo--vol. II, Newport News page 225 1 that correct? 2 A. That's correct. 3 Q. Do you agree that asbestos is a 4 high-toxicity material? 5 MR. YARBOROUGH: I'll object. He's not 6 qualified to answer that question. 7 Q- You can answer to the best of your 8 abi1ity. 9 MR. YARBOROUGH: Lacks foundation. 10 MR. WARD: He's previously testified - 11 A. I would say it has potential hazards, 12 and if it's a hazard, it should be treated as such. 13 I wouldn't go that far of calling it high toxicity. 14 Q. Have you ever met anyone wno contracted 15 mesothelioma? 16 A. Well, that's why I say, you can die from 17 inhaling carbon monoxide, too. when I say potential 18 hazard, you take, you know, whatever measures it is 19 that you can take to protect yourself. If that's not 20 possible, then you don't use it. 21 Q. Do you think it was wise to put exhaust 22 equipment on the milling machine and on the bandsaw? 23 MR. YARBOROUGH: Same objections. 24 A. I think it was -- I think it was a 25 prudent safety recommendation, and certainly Martino, Carlo--Vol. II, Newport News page 226 1 apparently would have offered protection for any dust 2 that was toxic. 3 Q. Was there any other toxic dust in 4 phenolic molding compounds? 5 A. No, not that I'm aware of. 6 Q. wood, for example, you wouldn't consider 7 toxic? 8 A. No. Not yet. Nobody's come up with a 9 connection yet. 10 Q. I'm going to show you two other 11 documents that relate to these events. I guess I 12 might as well mark them as exhibits. One is -- they 13 both precede that one we were looking at. One is 14 February 6, 1969. It's written by Dr. McKinley. And 15 that would be Martino No. 12; and the second is a 16 memorandum dated February 17, 1969 from 17 Mr. carpenter, the subject being asbestos-filled 18 samples. And we'll make that one No. 13. 19 (Martino-12, Document dated 2/6/69, is 20 received and marked for identification.) 21 (Martino-13, Memorandum dated 2/17/69, 22 is received and marked for identification.) Page 40 martino in nn vol ii 23 Q. Just take a look at both of those and 24 let me know when you've had a chance to read through 25 them or familiarize yourself with them. OMartino, carlo---vol. II, Newport News page 227 1 A. February 6, and this is April 17, '69. 2 Now, as I remember -- 3 MR. YARBOROUGH: Hold on. Just wait for 4 a question. 5 Q. well, tell me what you remember. 6 A. The osha test for measurement of 7 asbestos in the air was not issued until later this 8 year. 9 Q. No, I believe that didn't come into 10 effect until *71. 11 A. '71. 12 Q. So this precedes OSHA? 13 A. That's why I'm questioning the 14 conclusion. 15 MR. YARBOROUGH: Have you read this? 16 the witness: Yes, I did. That's why 17 I'm questioning their conclusion, how did they arrive 18 at it. 19 Q. well, these all relate to asbestos 20 exposure from cutting or shaping asbestos-containing 21 phenolic compounds. Correct? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. And in each one of the documents, they 24 suggest various industrial hygiene methods to protect 25 the occupants of that building. Correct? OMart`ino, carlo--vol. II, Newport News page 228 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. And in the first instance, they 3 recommend -- and by "first instance," I mean in the 4 February 6th letter, they recommend respirators, 5 although they acknowledge that won't prevent 6 contamination in the room, is that correct? 7 A. Yes. . 8 Q. And they recommend that they get exhaust 9 ventilation and dust collection. Is that correct? 10 A. That's correct. 11 Q. in the February 17, 1969 letter, 12 handwritten note, they talk about doing a wet cut on 13 the saw. 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. And the purpose of that is to prevent 16 dust from spreading? 17 A. Yes. I'm not quarrelling - 18 MR. YARBOROUGH: Just wait for a 19 question. okay? 20 Q. Now, let me show you a couple more 21 documents before I ask you any more questions. 22 Strike that. 23 Do you remember seeing any exhaust 24 equipment in 1969 or 1970 on any of these pieces of 25 equipment? OMartino, Carlo--Vol. II, Newport News page 229 1 A. I never looked. I don't recall, no. Page 41 martino in nn vol ii 2 Q. Do you recall any air samplings being 3 done in 1969 and 1970 in Building 95, third floor? 4 A. i don't recall, no. 5 Q. who would have been responsible for 6 doing those air samplings? 7 A. My experience with air sampling had been 8 through Doug Neal. 9 Q. i'll be seeing him next week. 10 A. So he would be in the best position to 11 really comment on this. I'm not really qualified in 12 this area. 13 Q. Well, the reason I was asking about it 14 is because I knew that this was -- this building was 15 part of research and development. 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. would you agree with me that Union 18 carbide would not spend the money for an exhaust 19 system if they didn't feel it was necessary? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. They watched costs very carefully, did 22 they not? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. The next document I'd like y. ou to look 25 at, and this is going to be Martino No. 14, is a OMartino, carlo--vol. n, Newport News page 230 1 diagram of an air flow dust collection system for 2 Building 95, Room 341, same floor, it's dated 3 September 17, 1973. 4 (Martino-14, Diagram dated 9/17/73, is 5 received and marked for identification.) 6 Q. Take a look at that. Have you ever seen 7 that document previously? 8 MR. YARBOROUGH: I want to add, if I 9 may, relevance to my list of continuing objections, 10 just based on the fact that these are taken from the 11 manufacturing facility as opposed to a facility at 12 issue -- based on the fact that the facility at issue 13 in Phase I of our trial is a much different setting 14 than the manufacturing facility. 15 MR. WARD: Your objection is noted. 16 Q. Just briefly, these tensilesamples, 17 these samples that are being cut, these are molded 18 products, the same way as products are molded when 19 they reach end-users, say, in the shipyard, is that 20 correct? They're finished products. Correct? 21 A. The molded specimens? 22 Q. Yes. 23 A. if it was made in your family mold, it 24 would be. it would be completely finished. There 25 would have been no need to do any more machining on OMartino, carlo--vol. n, Newport News page 231 1 them and they would just test them, if they were cut 2 from the plaque, they would require going through all 3 this. The molded samples from the family mold would 4 be like what the customer is supplying to the Newport 5 News. 6 Q. Have you had a chance to look at that 7 diagram? 8 A. I'm trying to see where it's -- oh, 95, Page 42 martino in nn vol ii 9 Room 341. 10 Q. so that's the same buildingand the same 11 floor. Correct? 12 A. Yes. That's '73. 13 Q. Do you know if that systemwas ever put 14 into pi ace? 15 A. I don't know. 16 MR. ward: I'm not going to mark this 17 exhibit because I do not have an extra copy. This is 18 a document that was just produced to us on July 3rd. 19 It's dated May 20th, 1974. it's from the State of 20 New Jersey. 21 MR. YARBOROUGH: what are the numbers on 22 it? 23 MR. ward: The Bates number is UCASB 24 00983753, and the following number. This transmits a 25 certificate from the State permitting them to . Martino, carlo--vol. II, Newport News page 232 1 operate, and I quote, a Toret self-contained 2 high-efficiency cyclone separator. The process - 3 the equipment that it's being used on is sample 4 preparation for testing, notching machine, table saw, 5 bandsaw, drill press, router, sander, milling 6 machine, surface grinder, its location on the 7 premises is identified as Building 95, Research and 8 Development Department. 9 Q. Take a look at that. 10 Have you looked at the second page -- 11 A. Oh, no. 12 Q. -- which is the certificate? 13 A. Okay. 14 Q. In light of that document, would you 15 agree with me that this exhaust and dust collection 16 system was, indeed, put in place at union Carbide? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. And it's a fairly elaborate exhaust 19 system, is it not? 20 MR. YARBOROUGH: Objection, use of the 21 term "elaborate." 22 A. I'm not qualified to answer that. 23 Q. Well, let me put it this way. 24 A. It doesn't look that complicated to me. 25 Q. Would union Carbide spend themoney to OMartino, Carlo--vol. II, Newport News page 233 1 put that system in place if they did not think it was 2 necessary? 3 MR. YARBOROUGH: I'm just going to 4 object as to the form of the question. It calls for 5 speculation. 6 Q. Did union Carbide spend money 7 frivolously? 8 A. No, it did not. 9 Q. Would they do air samplings before they 10 took this measure? 11 A. That, I -- I don't know. I think you're 12 going to have to ask Doug. I wouldn't think so. 13 They would test. 14 MR. YARBOROUGH: Only answer what you 15 know. Page 43 martino in nn vol ii 16 Q. When I started this line of questioning, 17 you said you had seen a letter regarding this same 18 subject. is that correct? 19 A. I saw this one just recently. 20 Q. Which letter is it that you previously 21 saw? 22 A. This one. 23 Q. The one that's marked as Martino No. 12? 24 A. Yeah. 25 Q. And how did you come to see that? Martino, carlo--vol. II, Newport News page 234 1 A. Some paperwork one of the attorneys had. 2 Q. Mr. Martino, would you agree with me 3 that when you cut a piece of molded phenolic that has 4 asbestos as one of its fillers, that if you cut that 5 in a bandsaw, it's going to reiease asbestos fiber 6 into the air? 7 MR. YARBOROUGH: I'm going to object. 8 He's not in a position to answer that question 9 because he's never performed that test himself. 10 Q. Are you able to make a statement on that 11 issue? 12 A. No, I'm not. 13 Q. So, at trial, you're not going to give 14 any testimony on any industrial hygiene matter? 15 MR. YARBOROUGH: He's already -- I'm 16 going to further object that he's already answered 17 that question and said that he does not know the full 18 breadth of his trial testimony at this point in time, 19 and -- 20 MR. ward: well, if you're going to take 21 the position that you can't -- I'm entitled to an 22 answer on this line of questions if you're going to 23 give any testimony at trial on industrial hygiene 24 methods, on the friability of molded phenolics, 25 they're capable of releasing fiber. So if you say "I Martino, carlo--vol. II, Newport News page 235 . 1 don't know," I'm assuming you're not going to offer 2 any testimony in that area. 3 MR. YARBOROUGH: lust because you assume 4 that, though, if he comes into some further 5 information between now and then that allows him 6 to -- 7 MR. WARD: I'm going to be screaming 8 bloody murder if he does. 9 Q. You have no training in industrial 10 hygiene. is that correct? 11 A. No, I do not. 12 Q. Do you have any training in toxicology? 13 A. No, i do not. 14 Q. Do you have any medical training? 15 A. Not formal medical training, no. 16 Q. Have you ever conducted any air 17 samplings? 18 A. NO. 19 Q. Have you received results of air 20 samplings? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. Do you know how to read the results of Page 44 martino in nn vol ii 23 air samplings? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. Have you ever seen any air samplings OMartino, carlo--vol. II, Newport News page 236 1 that were done when a phenolic molding material with 2 asbestos was cut or drilled, or in any other way 3 machined? 4 A. No. 5 Q. Never? 6 A. No. 7 You said "never," and I said "no." 8 Q. I understood what you were saying. 9 For the record, you have not seen any 10 such air samplings? 11 A. Right. 12 Q. in union carbide's submission under the 13 Asbestos information Act that's been marked as 14 Martino No. 2, or 3, for that matter, it says any 15 asbestos and Bakelite -- and he's using "Bakelite" to 16 mean phenolic molding compounds -- found in buildings 17 is fully -- is encapsulated, and that's not 18 respirable. 19 My guestion to you is, if you would cut 20 a piece of Bakelite, wouldn't that release asbestos 21 fiber? 22 A. I don't know. 23 Q. You don't know? 24 A. I don't know. Is this a new document 25 that you're reading? Martino, carlo--vol. II, Newport News page 237 1 Q. No, this is the same one we've been 2 going over 3 A. Then let's take a look at that. 4 Oh, this is the submission to the 5 Federal Services. 6 Q. I probably should have been referring 7 instead to the interrogatory answers, which are a 8 little bit more specific. 9 A. okay. 10 MR. YARBOROUGH: There's no question 11 pending. 12 Q. I'm just going to try to wrap this area 13 up with one last question. And if it's repetitive, I 14 apologize. I just want to make sure I'm clear. 15 You do not have any personal knowledge 16 or any expertise on the issue of whether molded 17 phenolic material which contains asbestos releases 18 respirable fiber if it's cut, drilled, or otherwise 19 machined, is that correct? 20 A. Yes. 21 MR. WARD: we'll leave it at that. Take 22 a break. 23 (A recess is taken.) 24 Q. . As much as I hate to do this, I'm g. oing. 25 to go back to the products. I think the next product DMartino, Carlo--vol. II, Newport News page 238 1 that I wanted to discuss with you is bmrs-5310 Page 45 martino in nn vol ii 2 Black 25. Are you familiar with that product? 3 A. Thenumber is familiar.You'll have to 4 refresh my memory. 5 Q. Let me give you my file on this. It is 6 Bates number, last six digits 937460. There are 7 documents thereafter. I don't know if they're 8 consecutive or not. I'm going to be asking you the 9 same types of questions. 10 Do you need a chance to look at it, or 11 should I just begin with the questions and -- can you 12 tell from looking at those documents what the 13 asbestos content of that product was? 14 A. Yes, 19.5 percent. 15 Q. And which document are you referring to, 16 the tentative product formulation? 17 A. Tnis is the -- 18 Q. That'S RM-18-Q. 19 A. Let's see. 20 Q. is that product included in Union 21 carbide's submission to the government? 22 A. Yes, it is. It says "Cross-over number 23 for bmrs-5303 Black 15," which means to me that the 24 two were the same, just the number has been changed. 25 Q. There seems to be a difference in tne DMartino, carlo--vol. II, Newport News page 239 1 asbestos content, though. 2 A. Yes, that's the thing I was looking at, 3 because when we looked at 5303 earlier, we were -- 4 you know, we saw 31 to 37 percent, now it's 19 and a 5 half. 6 Q. What year is this document that you're 7 referring to? 8 A. '68. 9 Q. Now, again, when you say "cross-over 10 number," does that mean that tne prior number is 11 phased out and the product becomes -- just takes on 12 the new number, or is it an actual change in 13 formulation? 14 A. It's the same formulation, but two 15 different numbers. That was usually done when you 16 wanted to sell to two different markets at two 17 different prices. In other words, if you wanted to 18 sell to one market at 30 cents a pound and you 19 thought you could get 35 cents a pound in another 20 market, you gave it two different numbers and charged 21 accordingly. 22 Q. So what you're saying is that bmrs-5310 23 and -- what was the cross-over? 24 A. BMRS-5303. 25 Q. -- may have been sold at the same time, Martino, Carlo--vol. II, Newport News page 240 1 just with different numbers? 2 A. Yes. Now, another reason for doing that 3 is you may run special tests on one versus the other, 4 and I want to make sure that that gets done when it 5 goes through the manufacturing process. I just want 6 to refer to Herve's -- see what he has on bmrs-5303. 7 i don't even see bmrs. I'll look on the other page. 8 He shows 21 point -- 20.1 and then 24.5. Page 46 martino in nn vol ii 9 Q. For which product? 10 A. BMRS-5303. He has two different 11 entries. This is 19 and a half. And 53 -- oh, okay. 12 5310 is 20 and a half, 20.1. That jibes. But here, 13 it's 24.5. That's different. 14 Q. So they are two separate products, in 15 other words, two separate formulations? 16 A. It appears that way, yes. I don't know 17 why -- it had to be a different product, yes. 18 Q. so, in other words, this is a separate 19 product that is not included in the union carbide 20 submission under the Asbestos information Act? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. And is this a product that you did not 23 recall when you testified previously? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. And there is a final transfer to Martino, Carlo--Vol. II, Newport News page 241 1 manufacturing for that product, correct? 2 A. Yes. Now, this is thrust washer. The 3 one we were dealing with before was a thrust washer. 4 Q. What is athrust washer? 5 A. it's a piece in a transmission. It's 6 about this size and it's a part that -- you know, in 7 an automatic transmission. I don't know exactly the 8 function, but it replaces -- it's a cast metal piece 9 inside the transmission. 10 . Q. This was -- the customer for this 11 product was Kurz Kasch company? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. K-U-R-Z K-A-S-C-H. 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. And they were making it for Ford Motor 16 Company. Is that correct? 17 A. That's right. So I -- the other one, I 18 was questioning whether it became commercial. I 19 don't know whether there's a tie-in with that one and 20 this one or not. 21 Q. The next number on my list I have is 22 bmrs-5314, and I believe that is a product that Union 23 Carbide included on their submission to the 24 government, is that correct? 25 A. Yes. That's the 12 percent asbestos. Martino, carlo--vol. II, Newport News page 242 1 Q. The only question I had on this one is 2 there's a letter in the file I have from Mr. Fishberg 3 to you and others concerning the phenolic compound 4 reformulation program, which we'll probably be 5 talking about next time we get together, and the 6 letter is dated March 9, 1973, ana in that letter, it 7 indicates, does it not, that square D was one of the 8 major consumers of this product? 9 MR. YARBOROUGH: while you're reading 10 it, for the record, this is Bates No. UCASB 00939686 11 through 689. 12 A. you were asking about names of injection 13 machines. New Britain. 14 Q. is that one of them? 15 A. Yes. Page 47 martino in nn vol ii 16 Q. okay. 17 A. You'll have to refresh my memory on the 18 question. 19 Q. My question was, this document indicates 20 that Square D was one of the purchasers of this 21 product. 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. And in one of your prior depositions, 24 you could not recall any sales to square D, and that 25 testimony was not accurate. Is that correct? Martino, Carlo--vol. II, Newport News page 243 1 A. That's correct. 2 Q. Now, this is one of the products that 3 ultimately you got an asbestos-free formulation for. 4 is that correct? I'll give you the rest of my file. 5 A. Yeah, let me refresh my memory on the 6 formulation. 7 Okay. 8 Q. My question was, isn't it true that this 9 is one of the products that you reformulated to 10 remove the asbestos from the material? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. And the asbestoswas replacedwith talc 13 and lime, is that correct? 14 A. That's correct. 15 Q. And are there anydisadvantages to using 16 talc and lime as a filler instead of asbestos? 17 A. if it is a direct substitute, the impact 18 strength would be lower, and if this had some fiber 19 in it, like a sisal fiber, I can't tell whether it 20 did or not. That's one we were selling to Square D, 21 but contained an organic fiber. You then compensated 22 for it by raising the organic content, in other 23 words, say it's cotton flock or sisal. You put in 50 24 percent more. 25 Q. We talked a little bit about different Martino, Carlo--vol. II, Newport News page 244 1 fillers. I think we focused solely on asbestos, and 2 I want to learn a little bit about the other fillers. 3 What were the properties that asbestos 4 would impart to a product that it was used in, or 5 what were the advantages of using asbestos? 6 A. until glass fibers came along, it was 7 the only fibrous mineral or large volume mineral 8 available for applications where you need -- you 9 couldn't put any, or very little, organic material in 10 that would be heat resistant, lower water absorption; 11 and those, of course, tie in with electrical 12 properties. You absorb less water, you have better 13 electrical properties. 14 Q. Any other reasons for using asbestos in 15 a material? You mentioned heat resistance, water 16 absorption. I assume the fact it was a fibrous 17 mineral meant that it lent some impact strength. 18 A. Yes, and that is a reason for going to 19 long fiber, it gives you better impact strength. 20 The flow material that we used was short fiber. It 21 was better than this, but not as good as the long 22 fiber in terms of impact strength. Page 48 martino in nn vol ii 23 Q. Another reason you mentioned earlier in 24 the deposition is to improve the cure speed of a 25 material. Is that correct? OMartino, carlo--Vol. II, Newport News page 245 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. And the flow properties of a material? 3 A. By that, I'm not quite sure what you 4 mean by flow -- 5 Q. I don't, either. I just read it. 6 A. lust -- with flow, would be plasticity, 7 how easily it moved or - 8 Q. From the documents I was reading, it 9 seemed to indicate that it would flow into the mold 10 better with asbestos in it, as opposed to calcium 11 carbonate or some other fiilers. 12 A. I've never seen evidence of that, but - 13 Q. All right, well, if we come across the 14 document -- let me get my checklist. 15 I got asbestos is good for improved heat 16 resistance, lower water absorption, improved impact 17 strength, improved cure speed. 18 A. when I say improved impact, that's over 19 the - 20 Q. Better than wood? 21 A. Oh, no, no, no. Better than the other 22 minerals, the calcium carbonate, the talc, in terms 23 of impact strength, because they're not fibrous. 24 Q. But wood or cotton give more impact 25 strength? OMartino, carlo--Vol. II, Newport News page 246 1 A. wood is equal to or better than the 2 asbestos float. Cotton is -- gives you a higher 3 impact than either one. 4 Q. The disadvantage of cotton -- well, 5 before I go to cotton, I better finish asbestos. 6 were there any other reasons that 7 asbestos was used in products other than what we've 8 mentioned? I saw some old documents talking about 9 fungi resistance. 10 A. I don't see why that would be any better 11 than any of the other minerals. 12 Q. But it would be better than wood? 13 A. Oh, yes. 14 Q. It would be better than cotton in the 15 area of fungi resistance? 16 A. You're talking mineral versus organic, 17 and it's a function of the water that is absorbed. 18 You absorb less water, you get less mold. 19 Dimensional stability is also another 20 one, and that applied to any mineral, you don't get 21 as much expansion and contraction because of less 22 water absorption. 23 Q. is one of the factors flame resistance? 24 In choosing your filler, is flame resistance a 25 consideration? OMartino, Carlo--vol. II, Newport News page 247 . 1 A. no, phenolic resin doesn't burn, it Page 49 martino in nn vol ii 2 will char, but it won't support combustion. 3 Q. I'm thinking, for example, in -- my 4 focus is on switchboards used on marine vessels, be 5 they military or be they commercial. Is flame 6 resistance a factor in deciding what filler to use in 7 that environment? 8 A. The definition of flame resistance may 9 be different, you know, in some -- the definition of 10 flame resistance may be different in what I'm 11 picturing here. To me, flame resistance meaning it 12 won't support combustion. You put a flame on it or 13 you have an electrical arc, you'll get some 14 carbonization, but as soon as that stops, the flame 15 goes out. it doesn't make any difference whether 16 it's mineral or wood. 17 Q. Well, let me ask a counterpart to that. 18 would the type of filler have an impact 19 on how much smoke was created if there was a fire? 20 In other words, if you have a wood filler, would that 21 give off more smoke if there was a fire than -- 22 MR. YARBOROUGH: If you know, if you 23 can answer. 24 Q. -- than if you had asbestos as the 25 filler? OMartino, Carlo--vol. II, Newport News page 248 1 MR. YARBOROUGH: Don't guess or 2 speculate. 3 A. I don't know. 4 Q. Now, I noticed that in a lot of the 5 products we have reviewed and that we will review, 6 asbestos-containing phenolic materials were used for 7 electrical applications, is that correct? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. And particularlywith regard to 10 electrical switch gear, it appears that 11 asbestos-containing material was generally used, is 12 that correct? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. Is it fair to say that if you are using 15 a phenolic molding material in an electrical 16 application, more likely than not it's going to 17 contain asbestos? 18 A. No, no, because a lot of wood 19 flour-filled material is also used there. One of our 20 products recommended for switch gear is 7021, which 21 is a cotton flock-filled material, no asbestos. I've 22 seen general purpose wood flour-filled material being 23 used by cutler Hammer and Alan Bradley. 24 Q. And they also used asbestos-filled 25 material? OMartino, Carlo--vol. II, Newport News page 249 1 A. And also used asbestos, it's just, 2 again, what does that application -- what does the 3 company who is buying the part specify they want, and 4 then they have to mold the material that conforms to 5 those requirements. It may be dimensional stability 6 specification, it may be an electrical specification, 7 or it may be - 8 Q. Have you seen wood filled with no Page 50 martino in nn vol ii 9 asbestos as a filler used in switch gear? 10 A. in the residential switch gear, yes. 11 Q. How about in industrial or maritime? 12 A. in industrial, it would be the gamut, 13 you know, depending on voltage, the environment it's 14 put in. You would expect that -- that's why you have 15 the different MFH -- MF grades. 16 Q. Now, I want to talk about the cost of 17 the different fillers. Is it true that cotton is 18 quite a bit more expensive than asbestos? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. And asbestos is less expensive than 21 minerals such as mica? 22 A. That, I don't know. I don't recall 23 those cost figures. 24 Q. how does asbestos compare to talc in 25 cost? During the time -- I'm not worried about now. Martino, Carlo--vol. II, Newport News page 250 1 I'm talking about in the '60s. 2 A. That, I don't remember, either. 3 Q. Lime? 4 A. Lime, that's less expensive. 5 Q. Calcium carbonate? 6 MR. YARBOROUGH: which is less 7 expensive? 8 the WITNESS: Lime is less expensive. 9 A. Calcium carbonate, I don't know. 10 Q.. And I understand that there are all 11 sorts of grades of wood flour. Is that correct? 12 A. we used a fir wood flour. I don't 13 recall a lot of different grades. Maybe in the early 14 days, but not now. I mean, you know, in the '60s ana 15 '70s. 16 Q. How did the cost of wood flour compare 17 to the cost of asbestos? 18 A. Asbestos was more costly, for two 19 reasons, it was more per pound, and you also 20 increased the gravity of the material, so you get -- 21 you know, it's heavier, so that you get less parts 22 per pound. 23 Q. Is it significant - 24 A. And it's more -- also, the price of the 25 final product is higher. Herve did have something on Martino, Carlo--Vol. II, Newport News page 251 1 cost someplace. 2 Q. Going back to your Deposition Exhibit 3 No. 8, the top, most commonly used grades of 4 asbestos, one is 2.8 cents per pound and the other is 5 $3.12 a pound -- no, 3 -- 6 A. 3.12. 7 Q. Three cents. Sorry, 3.12 cents per 8 pound. 9 A. That's the grit-free versus this. 10 Q. And, again, the year on this is 19 - 11 well, 1968, referring to 1967. 12 A. Yeah. Now, this is just asbestos. 13 Q. Right. That gives me a baseline to work 14 from a little bit. 15 In that same time period, what would you Page 51 martino in nn vol ii 16 estimate the cost of the wood flour to be per pound? 17 A. I don't remember. 18 Q. The cotton was significantly more 19 expensive. Correct? 20 A. Oh, yes. That, I know, was high. 21 Q. That might have been 10 cents a pound? 22 A. Yes, or more. It was just rags chopped 23 up, but it's still expensive. 24 Q. That's why I couldn't understand. 25 A. It's a controlled chopping. DMartino, carlo--Vol. II, Newport News page 252 1 I thought one of the previous documents 2 you showed me did have some raw material cost 3 comparisons. 4 Q. I think there is, too, but I can't 5 remember right now where it was. Maybe when we get 6 together next time, i'll remember where it was. I 7 think I'm going to leave the cost issue for the time 8 being. 9 A. some wise guy in the lab one time -- 10 MR. YARBOROUGH: lust wait for a 11 question, okay? 12 A. i know, but this is not technical. 13 MR. YARBOROUGH: I know, but -- 14 A. I'll tell you at the break. 15 Q. I'm just trying to get back to where I 16 was. l keep going on these tangents. 17 I'm returning back to the products. The 18 next product I have is BMGC-5315 Black 25. I have a 19 formulation. I only have one page on that product, 20 it's a formulation dated 4/10/61. 21 Mr. Martino, you're signed off on it as 22 group leader, and I'd like you to just look at that 23 and tell me what the asbestos content of that product 24 is.. 25 A. Six percent. Martino, Carlo--vol. II, Newport News page 253 1 Q. Do you know what the purpose of adding 2 asbestos to this product is, or was? 3 A. washing machine agitators. 4 No, I don't. 5 Q. Fair enough. 6 A. And this is one I question, whether it 7 became commercial or not. 8 Q. I can't tell you. That's the only 9 document I have. 10 A. I can't read it. 11 MR. YARBOROUGH: For the record, it's 12 document 906362. 13 Q. I'm sorry, that's the only document I 14 have on that one. you don't recall whether that 15 actually went into production? 16 A. That's right. 17 Q. How would I find that out? 18 A. well, the best way is the letter saying 19 they accepted transfer of the product. 20 Q. in any event, that's not a product that 21 you recalled when you gave your prior testimony, is 22 it? Page 52 martino in nn vol ii 23 A. No. 24 Q. Next I have a series of products that 25 all have the number 5333. I have nine different Martino, Carlo--vol. n, Newport News page 254 1 formulations of that product -- products with that 2 numerical designation, and I see that Union Carbide 3 did list one of those in its EPA submission, 4 bmmc-5333 Black 25. is that correct? 5 A. There must be two of them, bmmc-5333 and 6 BMMS-5333. 7 Q. BMMS-5333? 8 A. Right. 9 Q. That didn't make it on my list. 10 A. Is there a BMRS-5333? 11 Q. I have to add that one. 12 A. I'm just questioning, were you asking 13 about the BMMS? 14 Q. well, in any event, you're saying in the 15 submission of union Carbide, that there's two 16 different products listed there that have 5333 as 17 their numerical designation? 18 A. Yes. But on your list, you know, we're 19 getting back to what is a new formulation, so you'll 20 nave to take a look at that. I mean, what is a 21 different formulation? it could be granular 22 differences you're counting or -23 Q. well, there's difference in color, 24 there's differences in the third digit -- third 25 number. There's differences in the fourth number. Martino, Carlo--Vol. II, Newport News page 255 1 A. The third number would be granulation 2 differences. 3 Q. And fourth number is different -- 4 A. Sequence of changes that were made that 5 supposedly would obsolete the previous letters, in 6 other words, B would replace A; C would replace B. 7 Q. I'm not going to ask about every one of 8 them. There's just a couple I want to ask about. 9 The bmmc-5333 Black 25 that is on Union 10 Carbide's disclosure, do you know what the asbestos 11 content of that product was? 12 A. According to this, it's less than 13 12 percent. I don't remember the exact number. 14 Q. I'll give you my file on that and see if 15 you can locate the asbestos content on that. I seem 16 to be missing it. 17 A. Let's see. 8.4 percent. 18 Q. What fiber type? 19 A. Its grit grade is asbestos. 20 Q. RM-18 -- 21 A. Q. 22 Q. Now, you're looking right now on the 23 request for transfer to manufacturing. Correct? 24 A. The table that's attached. 25 Q. Bates number, last six digits is 913740. Martino, Carlo--vol. II, Newport News page 256 Correct? Page 53 martino in nn vol ii 2 A. Yes. 3 You were asking prices? 4 Q. Does it have prices in there? 5 A. Yeah. 6 Q. Good. Let's take a look. That gives me 7 something else to study for a while. 8 One thing I noticed on a lot of products 9 is the addition of external additive. Are you 10 familiar with that? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. And thepurpose of theexternal additive 13 was to reduce the dustiness of the product, is that 14 correct? 15 A. Yes, it's aliquid, yes. ifit's a 16 liquid, it was added. Dibutyl phthalate. Is that on 17 there? 18 Q. I'm not going to try to pronounce that, 19 is that what it is? 20 A. Yes. Dibutyl phthalate. 21 Q. we'll give that later to the court 22 reporter. 23 A. it's -- yeah, that's to reduce the dust. 24 Q. . The .phenolic molding compounds were very 25 dusty, is that correct? Martino, Carlo--Vol. II, Newport News page 257 1 A. I wouldn't say very dusty. 2 Q. I think Mr. Fishberg, in some letter to 3 you, said it was extremely dusty, but I was going to 4 be less dramatic. 5 A. Again, it's a relative term when you're 6 comparing it and how you're handling the material. 7 If you handle it properly, it's not like handling 8 carbon black, it can be handled and you're not going 9 to get all dirty, and the room is going to -- you 10 know, you look through it and -- very dusty is when 11 you see dust in the air. it's like a cloud, now, 12 you -- you can do that - 13 Q. Now, the plant blew up because of dust, 14 didn't it? 15 A. That's right, because they didn't clean 16 it. it was up in the rafters. But, you know, in - 17 when you handle it through air vent equipment, it is 18 not real dusty. . 19 Now, you also have a balance between -- 20 you know, if you take all the dust out, then the 21 customer can't get a good preform. They make pills, 22 so they don't want all the dust out, and you have to 23 come up with a compromise. And there's one of the 24 processes where they make a big pill just like a 25 pill -- you know, aspirin tablet, only big size. You DMartino, Carlo--Vol. II, Newport News page 258 1 take too many fines out, that pill doesn't hold 2 together. 3 Q. The term "fines," which I've seen 4 throughout, those are essentially -- that's the dust, 5 the - 6 A. That contributes to it. The material 7 goes through two screens, one that takes out the 8 coarse and one that takes out the fines, and there's Page 54 martino in nn vol ii 9 a very small fraction of fine particles that are left 10 in there. 11 Q. Maybe I should have you describe the 12 manufacturing process of phenolic molding compounds. 13 That might help me better understand this. I don't 14 need every detail, but generally how the phenolic 15 molding compounds are manufactured. 16 A. It's a lot like making bread. You dump 17 your ingredients into a big blender, and you take 18 these -- add them in certain sequence, blend that 19 material up, and you end up pretty much like your 20 flour with all your ingredients blended up. It then 21 goes down through a chute. That was up on the third 22 floor. It goes down through a chute to a set of hot 23 rolls. The rolls are about this big in diameter. 24 Q. About two, three feet, is what you're 25 indicating? Martino, Carlo--vol. II, Newport News . page 259 1 A. Yeah, three feet. Three feet in 2 diameter, heated. Heat can be changed, one roll 3 goes around faster than the other and gives you 4 shearing and mixing, and the material gets down in 5 between the bite of the rolls, and that's where it 6 melts and then goes -- sticks to it, rolls around, 7 and that's where it gets mixed in. 8 Then after a certain period of time, the 9 operator takes all that sheet off and it goes onto a 10 conveyor belt, so you end up with a black sheet maybe 11 this wide, that thick. 12 Q. You're indicating about three feet by 13 three feet and an inch or so thick? 14 A. Maybe not quite that, maybe two feet -- 15 maybe three feet long -- three feet wide and maybe 16 two feet long. 17 Q. Okay. 18 A. it went through another set of rolls, 19 what they call the finishing rolls. Then it goes up 20 to a conveyor, up into a granulator. It's 21 granulated, and then the material goes down and goes 22 through a sifter, which takes off -- it's an 23 automatic piece of equipment about the size of this 24 table, it comes in and goes into the top screen 25 which gets the coarse, down to a finer screen which DMartino, carlo--vol. II, Newport News page 260 1 takes out the real fine material, and works its way 2 out the other end, and then it goes down a chute into 3 the packaging equipment. 4 Q. So it's the granulation process that 5 creates the dust, is that correct? 6 A. The grinding, yes. Well, that's what 7 creates the fine particles, yes. 8 Q. Excuse my ignorance on this, but why do 9 you heat it and form it into a sheet, and then you 10 grind it up again? 11 A. So that the customer can feed it 12 automatically in his equipment. He'll put it into a 13 hopper in his machine. There are various processes. 14 The one most common is to put it in the hopper of a 15 preformer, which is where he makes his pills, you Page 55 martino in nn vol ii 16 know, make a round pill or square pill, depending on 17 what mold he's going to put it in. That pill is then 18 put in a high-frequency oven just like our microwave, 19 and heat it up, and then thatts taken and put into a 20 mold. That's the way they made washing machine 21 agitators. They had a big pill, heat it up, put it 22 in a washing machine agitator, and then close it, and 23 then the temperature is high enough so now the 24 material will flow for a certain period of time and 25 then cure. So you have to get that material Martino, carlo--vol. II, Newport News page 261 1 distributed before it cures, otherwise, you end up 2 with a short piece, and then when it comes out, 3 that's it. You can't melt it, you can't put it back 4 in and form another part. 5 Q. So when you're heating this material up 6 in the rollers, it's not at a very high temperature. 7 A. That's right. 8 Q. What temperature would you do that at? 9 A. it would be on one of those 10 manufacturing sheets. 11 Q. i'll look through it later. 12 A. I'd have to guess. I don't know the 13 exact temperature, but itTs low enough so that the 14 material will melt, but not cure. Tne molds are 15 around 325 up to 400 degrees Fahrenheit. 16 Q. And that's the temperature the material 17 has to be heated to in order for it to become a 18 thermoset -- for it to be finely set, in other words? 19 A. Yes. The higher thetemperature, the 20 faster it will cure. 21 Now, there are other processes for 22 molding that are more sophisticated. That was the 23 most common I described. 24 Q. I don't even want to learn about 25 injection molding and all that stuff. Martino, carlo--vol. II, Newport News page 262 1 Besides adding external additives to 2 reduce the dustiness of.the product, what other steps 3 did you take while you were the group leader to 4 reduce the dustiness of the product? 5 A. You'll see in the manual that there is 6 the BMMDC version, which was -- which took out more 7 fines. That's the dust control version. So 8 customers who wanted less dusty material would order 9 that. The ones making preforms didn't like it 10 because then the preforms were weak. 11 Q. So you have -- you can add an external 12 additive, you can remove more of the fines? 13 A. Right. 14 Q. Are there any other steps you can take 15 to reduce the dustiness of the product? 16 A. You have to go to a different process. 17 The dibutyl phthalate did interfere with 18 preform strength. The customer didn't like that, 19 either. 20 Q. Sometimes you can't satisfy anyone, can 21 you? 22 A. That's why we had so many formulations. Page 56 martino in nn vol ii 23 Q. Page two of the document you were 24 looking at, the request for transfer for the product 25 we were discussing, it indicates that this product is OMartino, Carlo--vol. II, Newport News page 263 1 being designed with westinghouse in mind, is that 2 correct? 3 MR. YARBOROUGH: That's document 913717. 4 A. No. 5 Q. And this is an asbestos-containing 6 product. Correct? I think we established that 7 earlier. 8 A. Yeah, this is the same document. Yes, 9 8.4 percent. 10 Q. And in your prior testimony when you 11 could not recall any sales of asbestos-containing 12 phenolic materials to westinghouse, you obviously did 13 not remember this product, is that correct? 14 A. My prior testimony, I didn't remember we 15 sold to westinghouse at all. 16 Q. I think that's all I have for this 17 product. 18 what's the difference between a one-step 19 and a two-step phenolic molding compound? 20 A. One step, the cross-linking agent is 21 built into the resin. 22 Two step, you make the resin and then 23 you add the cross-linking agent afterwards. 24 Q. is there any difference in the finished 25 product or is it more of a difference - Martino, carlo--vol. II, Newport News page 264 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. Okay, can you explain that to me? 3 A. I'm sorry. I didn't wait for you to 4 finish your question. 5 Q. no, I was going to make it another 6 compound question. 7 A. Yes, for wet/dry application like a 8 washing machine agitator or an automotive pump 9 housing, the two steps are better. They don't crack 10 under that, you know, condition as quickly as -- they 11 last longer without cracking than the two-step 12 versions do. 13 Q. I've seen references to a substance 14 called -- I assume it's an abbreviation -- Hexa, 15 H-E-X-A. Is that a -- 16 A. That's the cross-linking agent, yes. 17 Q. One thing I noticed in these various 18 products that are 5333 in number is that some of the 19 variations are used for piano keys and organ keys. 20 What's the purpose of adding asbestos to a plastic 21 that you're using for a piano key? 22 A. Appearance, the high -- the high gloss. 23 Q. Next product I'd like to talk about is 24 BMMA-5353 Black 25, which is on Union Carbide's 25 submission to the United States Government. Is that Martino, carlo--vol. II, Newport News page 265 1 correct? I think that's the last - Page 57 martino in nn vol ii 2 A. The BMMA -- 3 Q. 5353 Black 25. 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. They don't make that designation? 6 A. Yes, just 5353, yes. 7 And after the product name, in 8 parentheses, it says only 10 percent asbestos. 9 correct? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. Let me show you -- . 12 MR. YARBOROUGH: For the record, you're 13 referring to Martino-2. 14 MR. WARD: well, it also says the same 15 thing in Martino-3, and I think also in your 16 interrogatory answers. 17 Q. i'll show you the file I have on this 18 product and ask you to tell me what the asbestos 19 content of the product is according to the 20 formulations in the file. 21 MR. YARBOROUGH: It's document 924527. 22 A. This shows 34.05 percent. 23 Q. Do you have any knowledge about -- 24 strike that. 25 Do you know why they would have put in DMartino, Carlo--vol. II, Newport News page 266 1 their submission that it was only 10 percent 2 asbestos? 3 A. no. That 10 percent asbestos should 4 have been up here. 5 Q. will you agree that this product had far 6 more than 10 percent asbestos? it was really 34.05 7 percent asbestos, is that correct? 8 MR. YARBOROUGH: According to the 9 formulation sheet. 10 MR. ward: According to their documents. 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. Next product is BMGA-5383 Black 25. Do 13 you recall that product? 14 A. NO. 15 Q. Can you tell from looking at the file 16 what the asbestos content of that product is? . 17 a. I don't see any asbestos, what is trm? 18 Q. 5563? 19 A. Yeah. 20 Q. well, that's my question to you. I'm 21 thinking it's asbestos, what do you think? 22 A. Are there any properties on this? 23 Q. You have my whole file. 24 A. it says 5 percent lessasbestos, 5 25 percent coal, on the second page. Where's our base Martino, Carlo--vol. ii, Newport News page 267 1 document? 2 MR. YARBOROUGH: He's asking you to look 3 at these two documents, and if you can tell from 4 looking at these two, answer the question. If not, 5 tell him you don't know. 6 A. I can't tell from this. 7 MR. Yarborough: we're referring.to 8 documents 943617 and 943618. Page 58 martino in nn vol ii 9 Q. So you do not know if trm-5563 is 10 asbestos? 11 A. That's correct. Also, I don't know 12 whether this became commercial. There's nothing else 13 here. 14 Q. Next I have a product of BMMA-5393 15 Black 25. I have two documents -- actually, it's one 16 document, two pages. Bates number is 907504. i'll 17 ask you to look at the file and see if you can tell 18 if that product had asbestos in it. 19 A. Yes, it did. ' 20 Q. what was the percentage of asbestos? 21 A. 15.7 percent. Again, I don't know 22 whether that became commercial. 23 Q. The documents you have there are 24 indicated as being product formulations and 25 manufacturing instructions. DMartino, Carlo--vol. II, Newport News page 268 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. And not indicated as being tentative, 3 are they? 4 A. Tentative, yes. what's that? 5 Q. it doesn't say 'tentative" on the 6 documents, does it? 7 A. No, but this is the first step in making 8 some material for evaluation in a customer's plant. 9 You make a short run and use it, you know, try it. 10 Then if he likes it, you come back and make more, and 11 you go through that process and ask for transfer. 12 Q. Do you remember selling products to west 13 Bend, phenolic molding compounds to west Bend? 14 A. I don't remember. I see we tried to 15 sell west Bend. 16 Q. They're listed as thecustomer for the 17 product. Correct? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. In any event, this product is not on the 20 list of products that union carbide gave to the 21 United states Government in its submission. 22 A. No, it's not. 23 Q. Next product I have is BMGA-5398 24 Black 25. I have quite a few documents on this 25 product. First Bates number is 924450. Are you Martino, Carlo--Vol. II, Newport News page 269 1 familiar with this product, 5398? 2 A. i'll have to refresh my memory on that. 3 I'm not familiar with this. I wasn't 4 even on the distribution on this. 5 Q. So Research and Development wouldn't -- 6 they would not originate all the products? 7 A. The organization changed periodically. 8 There are those who felt tech service could best be 9 done in Manufacturing, and there were those that felt 10 it should be done in Research and Development. 11 Q. Are those political battles within the 12 corporation? 13 A. Yes. And this, in '62, Ducca was in 14 Manufacturing, and prior to that, he was working for 15 me in r&d, and they were given some limited latitude Page 59 martino in nn vol ii 16 in making some formulation changes. They had to stay 17 within certain guidelines. 18 Q. Is this an asbestos-containing product? 19 A. Yes, it is. 20 Q. The amount of asbestos is 21 30 percent RM-18-B. Is that correct? 22 A. Right. . 23 MR. YARBOROUGH: According to the 24 document. 25 THE WITNESS: Yes. Martino, Carlo--vol. II, Newport News page 270 1 Q. And this product was sold commercially. 2 correct? 3 A. Yes, it was. 4 Q. And this product is not on the 5 submission that epa made to the government, is it? 6 A. No. 7 Q. I mean, that union carbide made to the 8 government. 9 A. No, it is not. 10 Q. One question I had that I'm not -- I 11 want to know the answer today, but I haven't had a 12 chance to go through the file. 13 I see some of our molding compounds 14 further down the list were used to make toilet seats, 15 and they had asbestos in them. Do you know why you 16 put asbestos in a molding compound to make toilet 17 seats? 18 A. I didn't know we made toilet seats out 19 of phenolic compound. 20 Q. That gives you something to look forward 21 to next time we get together. 22 A. we made toilet seats out of a -- we 23 didn't do it. we sold a resin to the customers, who 24 blended it with wood flour and made toilet seats. 25 Q. I want to go back to Martino Exhibit OMartino, carlo--vol. II, Newport News page 271 1 No. 6. 2 A. I take -- go ahead. 3 Q. There's a product on that list, bmg-5418 4 Black 45 and BMGB-5418 Black 45. And it indicates 5 that the product -- I guess 25.67 percent 18-P, plus 6 12 percent 18-0. Is that how the document reads? 7 MR. YARBOROUGH: That could be a Q. 8 A. I don't know. 9 Q. Are you familiar with this product? 10 A. I think we covered 5418 earlier. You 11 were checking them off. 12 Q. 5418? No, I'm just going in 13 chronological order. . 14 A. No, I'm not familiar with it. 15 Q. well, I have a huge file on it. why 16 don't we just take a look at this file, and after 17 this one, we'll call it a day. 18 I'd like you to just look through that 19 and see if you can find information -- thereTs a lot 20 of product formulations on the asbestos content of 21 that product. 22 A. 1938? Page 60 martino in nn vol ii 23 MR. YARBOROUGH: just go through and 24 answer any questions he has. 25 A. I was trying to get the date, you know, OMartino, Carlo--vol. II, Newport News page 272 1 so that I understand where we're coming from here. 2 Q. it looks like it was made for a long 3 time. 4 A. Yes. Okay. All right. It's a graphite 5 pill resin -- molding material. 6 Q. Can you tell what the asbestos content 7 of this product is? I have documents from 1966 that 8 you can direct your attention to, if you wish. I 9 realize it may nave changed over time. 10 A. well, that's why I wanted to get the 11 latest document. It would be 50 -- 62, 63, a little 12 over 63 percent. I didn't add it exactly, but it's 13 close to -- a little over 63 percent. 14 Q. And that consists of RM-rl8-P, and that's 15 25.67 percent, is that correct? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. RM-18-B, which is 25.67 percent. 18 Correct? 19 A. Right. . 20 Q. And rm-18-o, which is 12 percent. 21 Correct? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. And that adds up to a little bit over 24 62 percent? 25 A. Yes. OMartino, Carlo--vol. II, Newport News page 273 1 Q. Is that - 2 A. A little over -- yeah, 3 63 percent. 4 Q. And the RM-18-0, we have determined, is 5 African long fiber asbestos, correct? 6 A. I have to look at the document again. 7 (Mr. Weinberg enters the deposition 8 room.) . 9 Q. I don't know if it's onthat one. The 10 product may have -- I can't tell, it may have been 11 discontinued by that time. 12 A. I don't know whether 18-0corresponds to 13 long fiber asbestos or not. 14 Q. Well, I'll go with your prior testimony 15 on that. 16 MR. Yarborough: And for the record, the 17 document we're referring to does not appear to have a 18 Bates number. 19 MR. ward: And those are from our first 20 production. 21 MR. YARBOROUGH: Right, but it is a 22 product identification sheet for product bmg-5418 23 Black 45, dated January 17, 1967. 24 Q. All right. There's also a letter in the 25 file dated November 22nd, 1966 which gives the same OMartino, Carlo--vol. II, Newport News page 274 1 asbestos content, and also gives the codes, is that Page 61 martino in nn vol ii correct? A. Yes. Q. Let me just finish up by asking, this is a product that you did not recall in your prior testimony. MR. YARBOROUGH: Answer audibly so she can get it. A. No. I mean, sorry. Yes. Q. Yes, you did not recall it? A. I did not recall it. Q. And this product is not listed on Union Carbide's submission to the united States Government, is it? a. That's right. MR. ward: I'm going to stop my questioning here for today, we can arrange for a date to conclude your deposition, and I tnink one more day will be more than adequate to do that, so why don^t we go off the record and see what we can set up. (The proceedings concluded at 4:10 p.m.) Martino, Carlo--Vol. II, Newport News page 275 1 CERTIFICATE 2 I, JUDY A. BLACK, a Notary Public, 3 Certified shorthand Reporter, and Registered 4 Professional Reporter of the State of New Jersey, do 5 hereby certify that prior to the commencement of the 6 examination, carl MARTINO was duly sworn by me to 7 testify the truth, the whole truth and nothing but 8 the truth. 9 I DO FURTHER certify that the foregoing 10 is a true and accurate transcript of the testimony as 11 taken stenographically by and before me at the time, 12 place and on the date hereinbefore set forth. 13 I DO FURTHER certify that I am neither a 14 relative nor employee nor attorney nor counsel of any 15 of the parties to this action, ana that I am neither 16 a relative nor employee of such attorney or counsel, 17 and that I am not financially interested in the 18 action. 19 20 Notary Public of the state of New Jersey 21 License No. XI01401 My commission expires: November 6, 2005 22 Dated: August 1, 2002 23 24 25 Q Page 62 received Adams and Reese up MAY 1 8 2010 May 14,2010 Via FedEx Tracking 793542692118 Mr. Cody Favilla Simmons, Browder, Gianaris, Angelides & Bamerd, LLC 707 Berkshire Boulevard East Alton, Illinois 62024 Attorneys at Law Baton Rouge Birmingham Houston Jackson ' Memphis Mobile Nashville New Orleans Washington, DC Leslie M. Henry Admitted in Texas, Louisiana, and Arkansas Direct (713) 308-0186 E-Fax (713) 308-4051 leslle.henry@arlaw.com Re: Cause No. 09c-07-130; Floyd Pilcher and Spouse Juanita Pilcher v. Baker Hughes Incorporated, et al\ In the Superior Court of the State of Delaware in and for New Castle County Dear Mr. Favilla: Enclosed please find a compact disk containing ConocoPhillips Company's document production P1L0001-PIL8739 pertaining to the above referenced matter. Please contact us if you have any questions. Sincerely yours, bep/LMH 858447-1 One Houston Center 1221 McKinney, Suite 4400 Houston, Texas 77010 (713) 652.5151 Fax (713) 652.5152 # vwwv.adamsandreese.com