Document g2r439bvYvRQKVxGKrLrgRDEG

Conttnuatton ofa V&poAitton ofa E. SCOTT TUCKER, Pk.V takzn on the 24th day oJam, 1992. iSwom 1- /> ' r/ lx'0'*;' :-> i; ^ _scsj mm kmstKi _ 5 5. 3&M3 , X,TS$ 1 l TMMP^Tf .lX .$; ! ""I '(Tte'^de ,i I * V > IY i' Tiff >Xi'$ T^GtQ WATER PCB-SD0000042227 188 1 A . Yes. 2 Q. I was just trying to obtain the numbers . 3 MR. KASHANI: Enough for today? 4 Okay. Thank you, Doctor. 5 (THE DEPOSITION WAS ADJOURNED UNTIL THE 6 FOLLOWING DAY) 7 - (CONTINUATION OF DEPOSITION ON 6/24/92) 8 BY MR. KASHANI: 9 Q . Good morning, Dr . Tucker 10 A . Good morning, Saied. 11 Q Do you remember that you 're still under 12 oath? 13 A . Yes. But thank you for reminding me . 14 Q . Dr. Tucker, I'm going to show you a 15 document which, unfortunately, is not 16 Bates numbered, but have tagged the 17 interesting pages, but - - - 18 A . Before we get started, I think we had 19 some unfinished business from yesterday 20 that I was supposed to check into,. Do 21 you mind if I -- - 22 Q . Oh, yes. Certainly-. 23 A . -------- answer with regard to that? 24 Q . Please. Please. 25 A . Okay. I checked , and my Ph.D. degree JUDY COMP & ASSOCIATES WATER PCB-SD0000042228 189 1 from the University of Iowa was awarded 2 in February, 1968, which would mean that 3 I probably began working at Monsanto in 4 the fourth quarter of 1967. And I'm 5 sorry about the little lapse in memory, 6 but it has been ------- oh, gosh -------- I guess 7 two and a half decades or something like 8 that. And when I was depose d in-------- i n 9 the Outboard Marine Case I m i s s p o k e 4. 10 myself. That is not correct in that 11 record. So , let this record reflect that 12 that's not correct, that it was a ye a r 13 off. 14 Q . So, if you began work in the fourth 15 quarter o f 1967, when did Dr . Keller give 16 you the ass ignment to look i n t o the P CB 17 issue? 18 MR. ZIMMER: Asked and answered. 19 A. I believe that's already been asked and 20 answered. 21 Q, Well -------- 22 A. Do you want to go back and review in the 23 record -------- 24 Q . Well-------- '' 25 A. --------or I can------------I can------------ JUDY COMP & ASSOCIATES WATER PCB-SD0000042229 190 1 Q. I'd like to get the years now, if we '2 could. 3 A. Well, I mean, my memory is about as clear 4 about that as it was about when I got my 5 degree, which is probably something I 6 would remember better than when I was 7 assigned this problem, which wasn't 8 particularly, you know, known to be 9 important at that time. It would-------I. 10 -------- it's very doubtful that a brand new 11 graduate student out of a university 12 would receive an assignment like that 13 immediately upon arriving at Monsanto. 14 My guess would be sometime in '68. 15 Q, But, I guess with this as the starting 16 point, with the fourth quarter of 1967 as 17 the starting point, can we rely on 18 yesterday's testimony that you received 19 this assignment, I believe it was three 20 to six months after starting work? 21 MR. ZIMMER: I think that 22 mischaracterizes his testimony, but 23 if that's your recollection, Doctor 24 25 A. I think we set up a window yesterday. My JUDY COMP & ASSOCIATES WATER PCB-SD0000042230 191 1 '2 MR. ZIMMER: That's fine. 3 A. My--------let me------------let me------------I've thought 4 about this, because, you know, it bothers 5 us all as we get older that we don't 6 remember things, and then of course, we 7 have no base line, because I don't know 8 what you remember, you know, at your age. 9 So I don't know whether I'm losing it o.r 10 not. I doubt it. 11 Q. I assure you that I remember absolutely 12 nothing from 1967. 13 A. The situation was when Ijoined Monsanto, 14 I recall my first assignment. And my 15 first assignment was in the atomic 16 emission area to look at metal 17 spectroscopy. And we ------- I remember 18 buying a Perkin Elmer model 303 atomic 19 absorption instrument, which was a state 20 of the art brand new kind of instrumental 21 technique at that time. And I remember 22 working on that. So I know that at least 23 the first three months, if not longer, 24 when I was with Monsanto, was just, you 25 know, getting settled in and being given JUDY COMP & ASSOCIATES WATER PCB-SD0000042231 192 1 new kind of projects to, you know, get my 2 attitude- good and get my feet on the 3 ground and so I'd understand the system. 4 I know from my own experience that most 5 people that we get, unless they are 6 overachievers -------- even when they're 7 overachievers -------- it's about six months 8 before they really settle down and they 9 really start to perform effectively fr o.m 10 my viewpoint as a -------- as a senior level 11 management ------- laboratory management 12 person nowadays. So the routine is that 13 the windowing is probably three to six 14 months or more before I got started on 15 the ------- on the project, or before Keller 16 assigned it to me. And then there's, you 17 know, a time frame of putting things 18 together after that, purchasing 19 equipment. Equipment doesn't come out 20 like that. I mean first of all, you 21 know, you have to get a ------- you know, a 22 approval for the do 11 a r s, and you have to 23 get a quote, and then you have to order 24 it , and they have to make it and then 25 they ship it and things of that sort. JUDY COMP & ASSOCIATES WATER PCB-SD0000042232 193 1 So, that's -------- is that helping you? '2 Q. I believe so. I think what we were 3 trying to do yesterday was set a time 4 frame, starting from a beginning point, 5 and we've now, I guess, established a 6 beginning point ------- 7 A. Uh-huh (affirmative). 8 Q. -------- which is when you started work, which 9 would be the fourth quarter of 1967. 10 A. Sometime during the fourth quarter of 11 1967 and that ---------- and that jibes with the 12 fact that the degree at the University of 13 Iowa was awarded in February of 1968. 14 Q. All right. And then we discussed a 15 certain period after that. You were 16 given this assignment, then a certain 17 period -------- 18 A. Correct. 19 Q . -- after that - -- 20 A . Cor r e c t . 21 Q . -- certain other events happened. 22 A . Cor r e c t . 23 Q . All right. S o , given this beginning 24 p o i nt , is there anything else you'd like 25 t o clarify about the succeeding event -- JUDY COMP & ASSOCIATES WATER PCB-SD0000042233 194 1 the timing of the succeeding event from '2 yesterday ------- 3 A . I------- ' 4 Q. -------- other than the beginning point? 5 MR. ZIMMER: I think that was the 6 only thing you asked him to double 7 check on, so ------- 8 A. Yes, the clarification is for your 9 benefit. 10 Q. I understand. 11 A. And so, if you require more 12 clarification, I'd be happy to try it. 13 MR. ZIMMER: Let's let him ask the 14 question before you answer. 15 A . Okay. 16 Q. All right. So, given this beginning 17 point, do you remember when you first 18 started running standards through the 19 equipment ------- meaning the gas 20 chromatograph with electron capture and 21 the gas chromatograph with the mass 22 spectrometer? 23 MR. ZIMMER: Asked and answered. -5' 24 Q. Well, I mean, with all due respect, I 25 mean ------- I understand that, you know, JUDY COMP & ASSOCIATES WATER PCB-SD0000042234 195 1 it's a long time ago. But we have a 2 deposition that was taken ten years ago 3 with completely different dates than what 4 I've just heard. 5 MR. ZIMMER: Okay and what the 6 dates showed on that deposition -------- 7 . MR. KASHANI: Wait a minute. I'm 8 not directing my attentions to you, 9 and I'd appreciate if for once you, 10 don't testify. 11 MR. ZIMMER: You know, I'm getting 12 so tired of hearing that worn-out 13 criticism of that I'm testifying. 14 If you ask a fair question, I won't 15 have anything to say. But this 16 prefacing of every one of your 17 questions as with, "Well, you told 18 me yesterday. Has that changed now" 19 20 MR . KASHANI: Oh , no, no. n o . 21 MR . ZIMMER: Just because the man 22 has figured out the exact date o f 23 his degree. 24 MR . KASHANI: No , no. I ' m e n t i 11 e d 25 t o go forward --------I guess what I ' m JUDY COMP & ASSOCIATES WATER PCB-SD0000042235 196 1 responding to is your "asked and 2 answered" objection. I'm entitled to 3 go forward from an established date 4 to establish a time line from that 5 date now that it's been established. 6 It is not appropriate for you to say 7 that these questions have been asked 8 and answered when yesterday we 9 hadn't established a beginning _ 10 point. Now that we've established a 11 beginning point, I'd like to go 12 forward and establish the dates from 13 that beginning point. So I don't 14 think it's appropriate for you to 15 say "asked and answered." 16 MR. ZIMMER: All right.. Are you 17 done? 18 MR. KASHANI: Yes. 19 MR. ZIMMER: Okay. It' s very 20 appropriate for me to say, "asked 21 and answered," because merely 22 establishing a beginning point 23 doesn't change the answers that he 24 gave you yesterday to the precise 25 same questions. He wasn't able to JUDY COMP & ASSOCIATES WATER PCB-SD0000042236 197 1 answer the question yesterday except 2 to give you broad time frames in 3 terms of the number of months after 4 he started. 5 MR. KASHANI: Well, maybe we can 6 7 MR. ZIMMER: So what difference 8 does it make -------- 9 MR. KASHANI: -------- fill in -------- 10 MR. ZIMMER: Let me finish. What 11 difference does i t make whether he 12 started in 19 67 o r 1 9 7 3 ? You think 13 the answer is going to be different 14 the second day. 15 MR. KASHANI: We're trying to 16 establish some dates and years -------- 17 MR . ZIMMER: It's your time - 18 MR . KASHANI: --------if possible 19 MR . ZIMMER: You can spend it 20 you want, but, I mean, he told you 21 the answer to at least two of the 22 questions that' you have now 23 addressed to him this morning, 24 yesterday. 25 Q . Given this beginning point of starting JUDY COMP & ASSOCIATES WATER PCB-SD0000042237 198 1 work in the fourth quarter of 1967, do '2 you remember the year that you first 3 began running the standards through the 4 5 A . The year? 6 Q. -------- mass spectrometer? 7 A. Probably 1968. 8 Q . Okay. 9 A. Now, wait. Wait a minute. You said m a. s s 10 spectrometer, okay. And you've lumped a 11 couple of things together here. 12 Q. I understand. 13 A. Your earlier question that I was going to 14 ask you to separate. You need to 15 separate gas chromatography electron 16 capture and gas chromatography mass spec. 17 Q. Let's do that. 18 A. Gas chromatography electron capture was 19 the instrument that I ordered and that I 20 set up and that I operated initially. 21 Gas chromatography mass spectrometry was 22 an instrument that I believe was operated 23 in Martin Deitrich's group by Jim 24 Mieuer, that I used through Jim Mieuer, 25 in other words, had him do it, because he JUDY COMP & ASSOCIATES WATER PCB-SD0000042238 199 1 was the mass spec expert and things of '2 that sort. And so answering your 3 question earlier, I'd like to amend your 4 question to reflect that it's GC electron 5 capture and not mass spec, because mass 6 spec, that's erroneous. 7 Q. Okay. So let me ------- 8 A. I think that's important. 9 Q. No, I understand. I understand because. I 10 understand certain equipment was obtained 11 later. So, when did you first begin 12 running standards through the gas 13 chromatograph electron capture equipment? 14 A. I guess it would be sometime in 1968. 15 Q. And do you remember when you first 16 started running samples from the 17 environment through the mass spectrometer 18 electron capture equipment? 19 A. Okay. The mass spectrometer will always 20 happen at a much later date -------- 21 Q. I'm sorry. 22 A. --------than the elect ron capture, so------------ 23 Q. I misspoke. I meant the gas 24 chromatograph electron capture -------- 25 A . Okay. JUDY COMP & ASSOCIATES WATER PCB-SD0000042239 200 1 Q. ------- when you first began running samples 2 through -------- 3 A. Not specifically. But it would have 4 occurred after the equipment had been 5 ordered, after the equipment had been 6 received, after the equipment had been 7 set up, after the standards had been 8 obtained, after we'd run the standards 9 through, after we'd developed the 10 preparative methods and things of that 11 sort. You don't just jump in and do the 12 environmental samples, because in order 13 to get the constituents that you're 14 interested in out of the environmental 15 samples, you have to go through and spike 16 similar matrices that are free from the 17 materials with knowns, go through it, 18 make sure you get the recovery, and in 19 this particular case with PCB's, it was 20 particularly complex, because there was 21 like 210 potential isomers, so you have 22 to make sure that you put the material in 23 the matrix, you run it through your 24 isolations procedures that gets it in a 25 form that you can feed it to the JUDY COMP & ASSOCIATES WATER PCB-SD0000042240 201 1 instrument and then you have to look at '2 that relative t o r eal standards to see if 3 any one of the 2 10 things have changed, 4 so it's--------it ' s a rather complex 5 situation. It ' s n ot like developing 6 methodology for a single constituent. 7 It's at least 210 times more complicated, 8 and in reality, it's probably some 9 factorial of 210. I don't know if you _ 10 know what factorials are, but 210 11 factorial is some number that we never 12 will understand. 13 Q . So-------- 14 A. I'm trying to give you what I think you 15 want, and that's a feeling for how this 16 development occurred and the difficulty 17 and the amount of time required. 18 Q. All right. I think I have an 19 understanding -------- 20 A. I'd like to be responsive to your 21 questions ------- 22 Q. I understand. I think I have an 23 understanding of how this works. I mean, 24 it's not something that you just -------- from 25 what I understand, and correct me if I'm JUDY COMP & ASSOCIATES WATER PCB-SD0000042241 202 1 wrong -- it's not something that you '2 just, you know, pour something in a test 3 tube and then look at it and then you 4 have the answer. I understand that it 5 r e qu i res very precise methods and precise 6 work. 7 Well, that's correct. And the other 8 thing that------- 9 MR . ZIMMER: Let's let him ask y o.u 10 a question. 11 THE WITNESS: Okay. 12 Let me qualify this. I'd like to qualify 13 this though. I'd like to qualify this. 14 Okay? Less than one percent of the 15 people in the United States have Ph.D.s, 16 and even a lesser amount than that are in 17 chemistry. Okay? That kind of 18 assignment went to an individual with 19 that kind of level of training and not 20 somebody else; okay? And so, that, 21 again, reflects the degree of complexity, 22 the degree of training and the degree of 23 experience that's required to execute 24 these techniques. At that point in time 25 electron capture and mass spec were JUDY COMP & ASSOCIATES WATER PCB-SD0000042242 203 1 leading edge technologies that -------- that ' 2 were just being developed and understood. 3 Okay. I'm sorry. I'll get off my 4 soapbox . 5 Q. No. I understand. And do you recall 6 what equipment it was that Jensen and 7 Widmark used? 8 A. Yes.They used ---------------- the one piece of 9 equipment that I do remember was an LKB_ 10 mass spectrometer. 11 Q. Did they ------- 12 A. The brand names of the other stuff they 13 used I don't have the faintest idea. 14 Q. Did they use gas chromatograph and the 15 mass spectrometer in conjunction? 16 A. Yes, they did. They were one of the 17 pioneers in terms of interfacing that. 18 And I think they worked very closely with 19 LKB, which was the instrument company 20 doing that. And there weren't that many 21 mass spec instrument companies around, 22 so, it required, again, a lot of 23 expertise, a lot of knowledge, and a lot 24 of dollars to do that kind of routine. 25 Q. And this is referring to the work Jensen JUDY COMP & ASSOCIATES WATER PCB-SD0000042243 204 1 and Widmark did back in 1966? 2 A . '66. '67. I believe '67 was the first 3 documentation of their work that I saw. 4 Maybe '68, something like that. That was 5 the date on the information. 6 Q. So, Jensen and Widmark were using this 7 --------as you described it------------leading edge 8 technology before Monsanto? 9 A . Yes . _ 10 Q. So, if we can go back to the question of 11 ------- I think we've left off at the point 12 that you started to run the standards 13 through the gas chromatograph and the 14 electron capture. Could I ask if you 15 remember approximately how long it was 16 after you began running the standards 17 through the gas chromatograph electron 18 capture before you could begin using 19 samples from the environment, or begin 20 testing samples from the environment? 21 A. Now, the question is ------- 22 Q. Do you recall approximately how long it 23 was after the time that you began running 24 standards through the gas chromatograph 25 electron capture equipment to the time JUDY COMP & ASSOCIATES WATER PCB-SD0000042244 205 1 when you began running samples from the 2 environme n t ? 3 A . No , I don ' t . 4 Q . Was it on the o r d e r of six months, a 5 year? 6 MR . ZIMMER: Asked and answered. 7 A . Let me cl arify the situation ------- 8 MR . ZIMMER: No . Answer his 9 qu e s tions and let him do the work, 10 okay . That ' s the way we want a 11 depo s i t i o n . 12 THE WITNESS: Can I--------I would 13 like to talk to you off the record. 14 I n e e d to c1a r i f y something. 15 MR . ZIMMER: All right. Let's take 16 a re cess. 17 (OFF RECORD) 18 Q . I'll just ask my previous question. Do 19 you recall approximately how long it was 20 between the time you first started 21 running standards through the gas 22 chromatograph electron capture equipment 23 and you first ran samples from the 24 environment? 25 A . No. JUDY COMP & ASSOCIATES WATER PCB-SD0000042245 206 1 Q. I guess my next question was do you '2 recall approximately the order of time, 3 between six months and a year, 4 approximately how long it was? 5 A. I mean, we could play this arbitration 6 game in terms of, you know, any number 7 -------- the number of how I feel and things, 8 but I don't remember, as I stated. 9 Q. Are there any documents that might .. 10 refresh your recollection as to when 11 these events occurred? 12 A. I'm sure there are. 13 Q. Do you know what those documents might 14 be? 15 A. They could be original electron capture 16 chromatogram traces from the instrument 17 and things of that sort. 18 Q. Could they be lab notebooks? 19 MR. ZIMMER: Calls for speculation. 20 A. I believe I stated earlier that I wasn't 21 in the habit of keeping a lab notebook 22 unless I was dealing with something that 23 was patentable, or, you know, something 24 of that sort, so I -------- I answered the 25 que stion. JUDY COMP & ASSOCIATES WATER PCB-SD0000042246 207 1 Q. Did anyone who was working on the '2 equipment keep a lab notebook? By 3 "equipment," I mean the gas chromatograph 4 and electron capture? 5 MR. ZIMMER: Same objection. 6 A . No. 7 Q. Let me refer back to your deposition in 8 the Outboard Marine Case. We'll be 9 introducing portions of this into the 10 record, not the whole thing, but 11 portions . 12 A . That's good. Good Lord, that11 s a thick 13 document!i 14 Q . First of all, you said before that you 15 recalled this deposition? 16 A . I recall the event. 17 Q. Do you recall if the -------- the caption of 18 the case is listed as United States 19 versus Outboard Marine Corporation and 20 Monsanto Company. Do you recall if 21 Monsanto was a defendant in that case? 22 A. Monsanto was a co-def e n d a n t . 23 Q. Do you recall the substance of the case? 24 A. I believe the substance of the case was 25 with regard to environmental JUDY COMP & ASSOCIATES WATER PCB-SD0000042247 208 1 contamination with PCBs by Outboard 2 Marine in terms of the waythey were 3 using it and things of that sort. 4 Q. Were these PCBs originally purchased from 5 Monsanto? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. At this particular deposition, do you -------- 8 A. Well, let me correct that. They could 9 -------- they were probably originally . 10 manufactured by Monsanto because Monsanto 11 was the sole U.S. manufacturer of these 12 materials, and I doubt they would go to 13 Europe or someplace else to get them. I 14 mean, there wouldn't be any cost 15 incentive. Whether or not Monsanto sold 16 them to a broker who, in turn, sold them 17 to Outboard Marine, I have no knowledge 18 o f . 19 Q. Do you mean that Monsanto was the sole 20 U.S. manufacturer of PCBs? 21 A. Do I mean that? 22 Q. When you said sole manufacturer -------- 23 A. That's what I thought I said, yes. 24 Q. -------- of these things? 25 A. Yes. They were the sole U.S. JUDY COMP & ASSOCIATES WATER PCB-SD0000042248 209 1 manufacturer of PCBs to my knowledge. 2 Q. Do you recall the specific deposition, I 3 guess it' s listed as having taken place 4 o n Ap ri 1 15, 1982? 5 A . I believe I mentioned -- - I believe I 6 answered earlier that I recalled i t . 7 Q Were you represented by counsel - - - 8 A . Yes. 9 Q -------- at that deposition? An d were you 10 testifying under oath at that time? 11 A . Yes. And it states in here that I was 12 duly sworn in and things o f that sort, so 13 page three . 14 MR. ZIMMER: No . He 1' s aware o f 15 that. 16 Q Let's save some time here. While that ' s 17 being taken care of, let's turn to 18 something else. I'm going to hand you 19 the exhibit that I had originally. 20 MR. KASHANI: Mark this 334. 21 (Thereupon the Court Reporter 22 marked the.pertinent document as 23 PLAINTIFF'S EXHIBIT NUMBER 334-A) '* 24 Q. I'll ask you to take a look at that. 25 A. (Witness complies with request) . JUDY COMP & ASSOCIATES WATER PCB-SD0000042249 210 1 Q. 'Dr. Tucker, you've had some time to look <2 at the Exhibit. Do you ------ 3 MR. ZIMMER: Are you finished 4 looking at it? 5 THE WITNESS: If you ask about 6 areas that I haven't gotten to, I 7 can look at it again. 8 Q. Okay. This Exhibit seems to refer to a 9 presentation that was made to the 10 Interdepartmental Task Force on PCBs, May 11 15, 1972. Is this the presentation you 12 mentioned yesterday in the context of 13 discussions with the Corporate Management 14 Committee? 15 A. Yes.This is a presentation that I 16 mentioned yesterday that was given, I 17 believe, to either members or I know 18 it was certainly given to Howard Bergen 19 and those kind of folks prior to being 20 presented externally, which is a standard 21 procedure for companies -------- for every 22 company I ever worked for. 23 Q. Do you recall giving the actual 24 presentation to, I guess it was a 25 government body? JUDY COMP & ASSOCIATES WATER PCB-SD0000042250 211 1 A . Yes. 2 Q. Does the description of your portion of 3 the presentation begin on -------- 4 unfortunately, the pages aren't numbered, 5 but there is a page that begins with 6 "Assessment of the Biological Persistence 7 of Polychlorinated Biphenyls by Dr. E.S. 8 Tucker" . 9 A . Ye s . . 10 Q. Does this describe your portion of the 11 presentation? 12 A. Yes. The reason I remember that is that 13 it's a fairly high honor to present this 14 kind of information to the -------- to a 15 interdisciplinary group that's appointed 16 through the President's Council on 17 Environmental Quality. 18 Q. I understand. Let me refer you to what I 19 believe is a slide or maybe a part of the 20 presentation. 21 MR. KASHANI: Let's go off the record 22 for a second. ' 23 (OFF RECORD) 24 Q. Let me refer you to the first page which 25 describes your presentation. It's the JUDY COMP & ASSOCIATES WATER PCB-SD0000042251 212 1 page that at the top, again, reads 2 "Assessment of the Biological persistence 3 of PCBs". Refer you to the second to 4 last paragraph on that page, that begins 5 with, "Aroclor 1016 is a special case in 6 that while it contains about 40 percent 7 chlorine by weight -------- 8 A . 4 1. 9 Q. 41 percent. I'm sorry. "-------- chlorine by 10 weight, its penta, hexa, and heptachloro 11 biphenyl content has been significantly 12 reduced with respect to Aroclor 1242, a 13 product produced by direct chlorination, 14 containing 42 percent by weight 15 chlorine." Is this Aroclor 1016 the same 16 as MCS 1016? 17 A . Yes. 18 Q. What is Aroclor 1016? 19 A. Basically, as I recall, Aroclor 1016 or 20 MCS 1016 was a 42 percent chlorinated 21 product that was distilled. 22 Q. You mean, it was t a-k ing Aroclor 1242 and 23 distilling it? 24 A. It was taking 42 percent chlorinated 25 biphenyl and distilling it. JUDY COMP & ASSOCIATES WATER PCB-SD0000042252 213 1 Q How was that 42 percent chlorinated 2 biphenyl manufactured? 3 A . By ------- in the standard process that -------- 4 that Monsanto used. 5 Q Was that the same manufacturing process 6 we discussed yesterday? 7 A . Yes. 8 Q Was the 42 percent biphenyl manufactured 9 in the same way that Aroclor 1242 was 10 manufactured? 11 A . Yes. It's just that at the point that it 12 was 42 percent chlorinated, there are 13 some other steps that I think, I believe, 14 were taken to produce the actual product 15 that was called Aroclor 1242. 16 Q I see. So it's ------- 17 A . That's why I differentiate -------- 18 Q What were those final steps? Were those 19 the------- 20 A . The final steps were -------- 21 Q -------- distillation process? 22 A . -------- as I recall -------- I'm an analytical 23 chemist, not a process chemist, and I 24 wasn't in charge of that particular 25 operation ------- but, as I recall, there was JUDY COMP & ASSOCIATES WATER PCB-SD0000042253 214 1 some treatments of the materials with 2 diatomaceous ------- blowing it with air to 3 remove ------- dry air to remove HC1 and then 4 treatment of the material with 5 diatomaceous earths or some kind of 6 absorbent ------- solid absorbent material 7 and then filtering to remove any residual 8 amounts of hydrochloric acid or chloride 9 materials that were deleterious to the 10 dielectric properties of the fluid. 11 Q. Did these steps change the PCB content or 12 PCB composition? 13 A. Not to my knowledge. 14 Q. So, the base, before the distillation 15 step in the production of MCS 1016, or 16 Aroclor 1016, was the beginning product 17 in terms of PCBs and terms of PCB 18 content, the same as Aroclor 1242? 19 A. Yes. Yeah. I think I understand your 20 questions. 21 Q. I guess what I'm saying is, that absent 22 this step that you mentioned, in order to 23 make Aroclor 1016, you would take Aroclor V* 24 1 2 4 2 and distill it to produce Aroclor " 25 10 16? JUDY COMP & ASSOCIATES WATER PCB-SD0000042254 215 1 A . No . 2 Q. Then what -------- 3 A. That's the point I'm making. The point 4 I'm making is that you wouldn't go to 5 completely producing the final product, 6 Aroclor 1242 and then convert the final 7 product, Aroclor 1242 into what was 8 Aroclor -------- what was eventually called 9 Aroclor 1016. You would do that step 10 prior ------- 11 Q. It was intermittent -------- Okay. Butin 12 order to produce Aroclor 1016, do you 13 start with a product that has the same 14 PCB content and ratios as Aroclor 1242? 15 A. It was my understanding that they did. 16 Q. And then, at that point, you would remove 17 a certain number ------- or remove a number 18 of the penta, hexa, and heptachloro 19 biphenyls from that product to get 20 Aroclor 1016? 21 MR. ZIMMER: At what point, when you 22 say, "at that point"? 23 Well , you-------if we have to go through 24 the manufacturing p r o c e s s , as you stated 25 you start with a product which has a PCB JUDY COMP & ASSOCIATES WATER PCB-SD0000042255 216 1 content similar to -------- the same as 2 Aroclor 1242 and then there are some 3 other steps which you discussed -------- 4 A. Okay. 5 Q. -------- and then, at some point in the 6 process, do you remove -------- to manufacture 7 Aroclor 1016 -------- do you remove the penta, 8 hexa, and heptachloro biphenyl, meaning 9 the PCBs with five, six or seven _ 10 chlorines on them, or do you remove some 11 portion of those PCBs? 12 A. Let me -------- let me say this -------- the 13 efficacy of the Aroclor products or PCB 14 products, relative to their safety and to 15 their dielectric properties and all that 16 kind of good stuff, was dependent upon 17 the chlorine ratios, so a product like 18 Aroclor 1242 had to contain 42 percent 19 chlorine and had to have the isomeric 20 distribution fairly closely that it had 21 to perform the way it did in dielectric, 22 you know, and fluid applications from 23 properties viewpoint, including the 24 safety aspect of it and that kind of good 25 stuff. So, the deal here is -------- what I JUDY COMP & ASSOCIATES WATER PCB-SD0000042256 217 1 think you're trying to say is that the '2 product was produced, and then it was 3 distilled and fractionated to the extent 4 that the higher chlorinated homologs were 5 removed, is that what we're getting at 6 here? 7 Q. Sure. I mean, what we're talking about 8 is you have a product that starts out 9 with the same -------- in the manufacturing . 10 process you have a product that starts 11 with the same PCB content and ratio as 12 Aroclor 1242, but then you take it 13 through a distillation process to remove 14 a portion of the PCBs with five or six or 15 seven chlorines? 16 A. Right. As I recall, Aroclor 1242 had ------- 17 you know, it's kind of like a Gaussian 18 distribution. It's determined by the 19 reactivity. And I believe Aroclor 1242 20 had something on the o r d e r of about five 21 to eight percent of PCBs that would have 22 a chlorine number of five and above i n 23 i t . 24 Q. Five, six or seven chlorines? 25 A. Correct. JUDY COMP & ASSOCIATES WATER PCB-SD0000042257 218 1 Q. More than five? Five or more? '2 A. Five or greater chlorines, up to maximum 3 theoretical possible, which was ten. And 4 I believe it was somewhere on the order 5 of five to eight percent, in that range. 6 Q. Is that percentage -------- just a quick aside 7 --- is that percentage accurately 8 reflected in the chart Ishowed you the 9 otherday? _ 10 A. You will have to show me the chart. I 11 don't recall it. 12 MR. ZIMMER: He's talking about the 13 handwritten chart here. 14 Q. That's Exhibit 332. 15 MR. ZIMMER: He didn't prepare it. 16 That calls for speculation. You 17 asking him now to interpret this 18 chart , and he's not your expert. 19 A . You cannot tell from thi s chart . 20 Q All right. Going back t o MCS 1016 -------- 21 A . Or I cannot tell from th i s chart. I 22 don't know what you can d o . Excuse me 23 I didn't mean to speak f o r you. 24 Q Going back to MCS 1016, d o you recall 25 reason for removing the -- - as you JUDY COMP & ASSOCIATES WATER PCB-SD0000042258 219 1 described ------- the five to ten percent of 2 PCBs from Aroclor 1242 that had five or 3 more chlorines ------- 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. ------- on the biphenyl? What was that 6 reason? 7 A. At this point in time ------- and I believe 8 this document is dated May 15th, 1972 --------- 9 we had accumulated enough scientific and 10 other types of information, both 11 externally and internally, with regard to 12 polychlorinated biphenyls and the way 13 they behaved in the environment to have a 14 good picture of what was going on 15 finally. What we had found, basically 16 ------- this is strictly my opinion -------- was 17 that the only problems associated with 18 PCBs were the long-term, from an 19 environmental viewpoint -------- and it was a 20 potential situation -------- was the long-term 21 persistence of the isomers 22 and above five and above, based on 23 you know, looking at environmental 24 samples that were way up the trophic 25 line, things of that sort. So it was JUDY COMP & ASSOCIATES WATER PCB-SD0000042259 220 1 felt that with proper product stewardship 2 by the people who used it, once everybody 3 became aware of the situation - -- and we 4 had a pretty good picture in 1972 -------- 5 that a product that was devoid of the 6 small amount of penta and above isomers 7 could still be used in dielectric and 8 some very closed system type applications 9 where safety was a paramount .. 10 consideration and things of that sort, 11 which is really what Aroclors were used 12 for to begin with, because they were a 13 fairly expensive product. And if cheaper 14 substitutes were available, and there 15 were many, they would have been used, but 16 they just didn't have the flammability 17 properties of the Aroclor and the safety 18 record of the Aroclor. So the attempt 19 here, and what I'm trying to say is that 20 Aroclor 1016 was Aroclor 1242 earlier in 21 the game there, in the manufacturing 22 process. It was distilled to remove the 23 five to eight percent higher chlorinated 24 homologs and to produce a product that, 25 if it was used properly, wouldn't JUDY COMP & ASSOCIATES WATER PCB-SD0000042260 221 1 contribute ------- continue to contribute to 2 the accumulation of the persistent 3 isomers in the environment. In other 4 words, it wouldn't overwhelm the 5 environment's ability to handle those 6 isomers which was a bit slow and very 7 hard to even observe. 8 Q. You mean the environment's ability to 9 handle the PCBs with five or more 10 chlorines was, as you say, a bit slow and 11 difficult to observe? 12 A . Correct. 13 Q. Was the distillation process to produce 14 MCS 1016, was that a difficult process or 15 expensive? 16 A. I'm not a process chemist, and I have no 17 knowledge of the dollars associated with 18 it or the difficulty at the level that 19 they did it with the existing equipment 20 and things of that sort, so I -------- I don't 21 feel qualified to answer that question. 22 Q. And the answer you gave concerning the 23 reasons for producing MCS 1016, is that 24 Monsanto ------- is that the conclusion that 25 -------- as far as you know -------- I'm asking JUDY COMP & ASSOCIATES WATER PCB-SD0000042261 222 1 for your knowledge -------- Monsanto -------- 2 people at Monsanto reached prior to 3 producing MCS 1016? 4 MR. ZIMMER: Lacks foundation and 5 calls for speculation. 6 Q. I mean, you gave me the reasons for 7 producing MCS 1016. 8 A. I mean that was -------- can we -------- can we get 9 the questions down to where I don't , 10 forget the front before we get to the 11 end? Please. Or ask two. 12 Q. You mentioned the reasons for producing 13 MCS 1016, and I'm wondering were those 14 reasons -------- you mentioned those reasons 15 with reference to this document, which is 16 dated 1972. I'm wondering if those 17 reasons were in place when Monsanto first 18 started producing MCS 1016. I mean, were 19 you aware of those reasons for producing 20 the product? 21 A . Not------- 22 MR. ZIMMER: Same objections. 23 Oka y Let me s t at e this. Not to the 24 deg r e e that we wer e aware at this point 25 i n time . This is a n evolutionary JUDY COMP & ASSOCIATES WATER PCB-SD0000042262 223 1 process. Back originally when PCBs were 2 first even reported being found in the 3 environment, nobody understood how they 4 got there or where they came from or any 5 of those kinds of routines. I mean it 6 -------- the knowledge that we have today is 7 so much superior, based on our experience 8 and all the work that we've done, 9 relative to what happens in the .. 10 environment that back then, you know, we 11 were like two years old, okay, in our -------- 12 in our understanding of that kind of 13 thing. So the whole thing was an 14 evolutionary process. And in 1972, we 15 had achieved what's called a state of 16 grace in terms of having enough 17 knowledge, both internally and externally 18 -------- and it wasn't just Monsanto folks -------- 19 that we felt we understood the mechanisms 20 that were going on in terms of the 21 environmental movements and PCBs and what 22 was happening. I don't know whether that 23 answers your question or not, but it 24 answers it from my viewpoint in terms of 25 the evolutionary process. So, whether or JUDY COMP & ASSOCIATES WATER PCB-SD0000042263 224 1 .not ------- the question was we had -------- when 2 we first started manufacturing MCS 16 -------- 3 whether we had the same knowledge we had 4 in 1972, the answer to that would be 5 "no", because we continued to generate 6 knowledge until I left the company in 7 1978, in fact there are still people 8 today who are generating knowledge with 9 regards to this particular problem. 10 Q. Sure. I understand that. But ------- let's 11 see if we can go at it another way. Do 12 you recall when it was that Monsanto 13 first manufactured MCS 1016? 14 A . No. 15 Q. I'll show you a document. 16 MR. KASHANI: Mark this Exhibit 17 335. I'm sorry. 18 (Thereupon the Court Reporter 19 marked the pertinent document as 20 PLAINTIFF'S EXHIBIT NUMBER 335-A) 21 Q. I'm not suggesting that you received this 22 or that you remember it, but -------- 23 A. You're not what? I'm sorry. 24 Q. Your name is not listed here, so I'm not 25 suggesting that you were copied on this JUDY COMP & ASSOCIATES WATER PCB-SD0000042264 225 1 document. But does this trigger any 2 recollection as to when Monsanto began 3 producing ------- or experimenting with in 4 this case ------- MCS 1016? 5 A. You're asking me to document the validity 6 of this document? 7 Q. No, I'm wondering if this document 8 triggers any recollection as to MCS 1016? 9 A. Not any specific knowledge on my part as 10 to dates or days or times or anything of 11 that sort, no. 12 Q. This material this document refers to 13 a material known as Aroclor 1242B. Is 14 that the same material as --------- orthe same 15 product,eventually as MCS 1016? 16 A. I don't recall working with any product 17 called 12 4 2B . 18 Q Did you ever have an occasion t o test MCS 19 10 16 i n your biodegradation st u d i e s ? 20 A . Yes. 21 Q . And what were the results? 22 A . The biodegradation studies, I be 1 i e v e , 23 without check ing the record -- - and there 24 i s , you know, it's published a 1 1 over the 25 place - -- was that it degraded a t o r JUDY COMP & ASSOCIATES WATER PCB-SD0000042265 226 1 about the same rate as Aroclor 1242, and 2 that the degradation rate was 3 proportional to the degree of 4 chlorination in the studies that were 5 performed. 6 (OFF RECORD) 7 - (While off the record the Court 8 Reporter marked the pertinent 9 document as PLAINTIFF'S EXHIBIT . 10 3 3 6 -A) . 11 Q. Dr. Tucker, do you recognize this 12 document? 13 A . Yes. 14 Q. Did you write it? 15 A . Yes. 16 Q. Up at the top it says "Special Study 17 71-2." Now, what does that mean? 18 A. As I believe we discussed earlier, the 19 first the special study, there were three 20 types of reports that we issued: special 21 studies, methods, and new techniques in 22 the analytical chemistry group. 71 23 refers to the year. The 2 refers to the 24 sequence ------- the zero sequence of the 25 report . JUDY COMP & ASSOCIATES WATER PCB-SD0000042266 227 1 Q. So this was part of a series of reports? '2 A. Correct. ' 3 Q. Referring to the title, it says., "MCS 4 1016 - An environmentally compatible 5 Aroclor." What did you mean by that. 6 II environmentally compatible"? 7 A. It meant that -------- as I recall -------- that 8 the material, if released -------- if 9 controlled properly and used properly and 10 only released at very low levels -------- that 11 there would be no environmental problems 12 as we saw them at that point. 13 Q. Referring again to the first page, this 14 is page TRAN 036753, under the section of 15 summary, the first sentence reads: "The 16 information present in this special study 17 report demonstrates that, from an 18 environmental viewpoint, MCS 1016 is at 19 least 10 times better than the current 20 product Aroclor 1242." Now, what did you 21 mean by that? 22 A. I believe I meant that the laboratory 23 information that we were able to produce 24 in studying the two materials 25 indicated that whatever we JUDY COMP & ASSOCIATES WATER PCB-SD0000042267 228 1 felt at that point in time was -------- had to 2 do with environmental compatibility -------- 3 that MCS 1016 was, in our judgment, a 4 factor of ten better. 5 Q. Better than Aroclor1242? 6 A. Correct. 7 Q. Meaning whatever environmental -------- I'm 8 going to use the word "problem" --------- was 9 associated with Aroclor 1242, MCS 1016 10 was ten times better, I guess. Ten times 11 less likely to produce that problem than 12 Aroclor 1242? 13 A. Perceived problems. And the problems are 14 still perceived today -------- 15 Q. Oh, yes, I understand. We're talking 16 about what was believed at the time of 17 this report. 18 A. Okay. The observation was that -------- that 19 after long periods of time in the 20 environment, if PCB fluids were released, 21 that we could still see some. Some 22 people perceived t hat as a problem back 23 then. I don't know that there -------- and 24 this is twenty-five years later, so I 25 don't know that it's a problem. So I JUDY COMP & ASSOCIATES WATER PCB-SD0000042268 229 1 don't know whether you want to call it a 2 "problem" or not. If you choose to call 3 it a "problem" I'd like to define it. 4 Q. Well, let's ---------- I think you're talking 5 about the situation of environmental 6 persistence, persisting in the 7 environment -------- 8 A . Correct. 9 Q. ------- in terms of PCBs persisting in the 10 environment. 11 A . Correct. 12 Q . Just let'1 s call it a "situation" o r 13 whatever you want. 14 A . Let's call it a "s ituation," because 15 persistence is not necessarily a problem 16 Q. I understand. 17 A. The earth persists, so that's a nice 18 thing, you know. So, I ------- I -------- 19 Q. But, in terms of ----------- 20 A. I don't think I -------- 21 Q . Well----------- 22 A . Okay. 23 Q . When you say that MCS 1016 is at least >* 24 ten times better - -- and "better" is y our 25 word, not my word. JUDY COMP & ASSOCIATES WATER PCB-SD0000042269 230 1 A Right. But I don't see myself using 2 "problem" in here either. 3 Q No. I understand. I understand. But 4 when you say MCS 1016 is at least ten 5 times better than the current product 6 Aroclor 1242, did you mean that MCS 1016 7 was ten times less likely or -------- well, 8 let's say ten times better in terms of 9 not persisting in the environment? 10 What I meant was that through the 11 criteria that we were using in this 12 study and I'd have to read this study 13 and delineate the criteria -------- that MCS 14 1016 was ten times better. It could mean 15 that it had ten times less of something. 16 It could mean that it degraded ten times 17 faster. It could mean a lot of things. 18 I'd have to read the report to give you 19 --- to reestablish the information and 20 interpret it for you. 21 But from what i t says 22 times better from a n 23 of view? 24 Yes. That's what i t 25 MR. ZIMMER "Viewpoint," I I JUDY COMP & ASSOCIATES WATER PCB-SD0000042270 231 1 think, is the word used. 2 A Yeah. Environmental viewpoint . Okay. 3 Q Let me refer you t o the second page , 4 which is number TRAN 0 3 6 7 5 4 . 5 A Yes, sir. 6 Q And go back down t O the paragraph above 7 where it says, " Conclusion." It says, 8 "Some simple arithmetic with the numbers 9 in Table II shows that approximately 75. 10 percent of Aroclor 1254, approximately 10 11 percent of Aroclor 1242, and only 12 approximately 1 percent of MCS 1016 are 13 the refractory PCB isomers that are 14 responsible for the biological build up." 15 What does "refractory" mean? 16 A "Refractory" means difficult. 17 Q Difficult to degrade? 18 A It could be difficult to degrade, yes. 19 Q What did you -------- 20 A In this context, it probably is. 21 Q This biological buildup, is that -------- 22 A It could be difficult to partition into 23 water from fat situation too. So it's 24 refractory to some process. 25 Q What did you mean by "refractory" in this JUDY COMP & ASSOCIATES WATER PCB-SD0000042271 232 1 sentence? '2 A . Okay. Let me read it. "Refractory" 3 meant ------- I think I meant persistence -------- 4 Q. Okay. 5 A. -------- based on the observations that we've 6 made t o da y . 7 Q. I understand. And this reference to 8 biological buildup in that sentence, by 9 that were you referring to the . 10 accumulation of PCBs, for example, in the 11 fatty tissues of fish and so forth? 12 A. By that I meant that the higher 13 chlorinated PCBs, because of their 14 properties, were preferentially absorbed 15 and concentrated in lipophilic materials. 16 Yes. 17 Q. Is "lipophilic" referring to fatty 18 tissues? 19 A . Yes. That's correct. 20 Q . Fatty tissues of fish and other animals? 21 A . Fatty tissues are in any living organism 22 Q . Sure. Let me refer-you back to the 23 testimony that was given before the EPA, 24 that I believe we introduced as an 25 Exhibit yesterday. JUDY COMP & ASSOCIATES WATER PCB-SD0000042272 233 1 A . This was before Judge Sweeney? 2 Q Yes. Exhibit 317. And to refer you to 3 page 2862 of the transcript, which is 4 TRAN 028546. 5 A . Letmejust -------- 6 Q If you look back at the bottom paragraph 7 where it says, "Answer", is that your 8 testimony? After where it says "A" about 9 line 17. 10 A . I would say it is. 11 MR . ZIMMER: I don' t understand th 12 question, rea 11 y It says, 13 " An s w e r . " T h i s is a passage of his 14 test imony . 15 MR . KASHANI: 11 ' s Dr. Tucker's 16 test imo n y . 17 THE WITNESS: Yes. 18 MR . ZIMMER: I mean , do you want 19 him to review i t and make sure -------- 20 MR . KASHANI: No No . I-------- 21 MR . ZIMME R : -- i n the context of 22 the question that i t 's correct? 23 MR . KASHANI: No I just want to 24 make sure I have the right place in 25 the transcript and this is still Dr. JUDY COMP & ASSOCIATES WATER PCB-SD0000042273 234 1 Tucker's testimony. '2 A. Yeah. I looked back, and then there 3 seems to be -------- it seems to be continuous 4 from the point at which it shows that I 5 was s wo rn in. 6 Q. Okay. And the answer presented here, or 7 the answer here or the testimony you gave 8 here reads, quote: "The definition is 9 proposed because we sincerely believe ... 10 that the predominant problem with 11 polychlorinated biphenyls is the 12 persistence of some of the higher 13 chlorinated ones in the sense that if 14 they persist for exceedingly long periods 15 of time and can bioaccumu 1ate, then there 16 is a potential possibility that they 17 could achieve, if they continue to be 18 released, that they could achieve a level 19 in higher organisms that could have a 20 toxic impact." Was this your testimony? 21 A . Yes, sir, 22 Q . When you said "bioaccumulate" do you mean 23 the same thing as the phrase "biological ' *5` * 24 buildup" in Exhibit 336? 25 A . Yes. JUDY COMP & ASSOCIATES WATER PCB-SD0000042274 235 1 a. And by the "higher chlorinate d ones," do '2 you mean the PCBs with five o r more 3 chlorines on them? 4 A . Yes. 5 Q And is that the same as the " r e 6 PCB isomers"? 7 A . Yes. 8 Q. Thank you. 9 A. Shall I return Exhibit 317 to the 10 recorder? 11 Q Sure,, Thank you. Yes . D o c t o r, I'm going 12 to refer you back t o another Exhibit as 13 well as long as we ' r e looking at older 14 Exhibits. 15 A. Since we're talking about how I feel 16 about things, and you brought that up in 17 that last testimony in front of the EPA 18 for the Toxic Substance Act routine -------- 19 Q. There's no question pending. 20 MR . ZIMMER: Well, if he wants to 21 talk, he 1's entitled t o . You don't 22 have the ability to cut him off, so 23 ------- Doctor, if you feel you need to 24 add something to it, you may. I 25 would prefer that you wait for a JUDY COMP & ASSOCIATES WATER PCB-SD0000042275 236 1 question, though. '2 A . Yeah. Okay. 3 Q Turn back to Exhibit ------- 4 MR. ZIMMER Don't feel chagrined 5 about makin g comments that you feel 6 are necessary to augment your 7 testimony. 8 Q . Let' s move on. We have very limited 9 time . We go on t o Exhibit -- - back to. 10 3 2 7. Yesterday you mentioned that--------I 11 believe you mentioned that you had no 12 specific recollection of this Exhibit. 13 This is Exhibit 377. Do you have any 14 general recollection of this document? 15 A . Yeah. I have a general recollection of 16 the document. And -------- yes. 17 Q Do you remember what context you might 18 have prepared this document or prepared 19 this draft? 20 MR. ZIMMER: He didn't 21 that he did prepare it. 22 A . General context. 23 Q Well, what's the substance of your 24 general recollection? 25 A . Of this? JUDY COMP & ASSOCIATES WATER PCB-SD0000042276 237 1 Q . Yes. 2 A. That it had to do with research that I 3 was working for on a Monsanto product 4 while I worked for Monsanto. And it 5 talks about a lot of things that -------- some 6 of which we were directly involved with. 7 Q. I'm going to refer you to a sentence on 8 page three which is TRAN 023492. 9 A. Okay. Are you going to give me a copy of 10 it to look at? 11 Q. Okay. Sure. Since I don't have a copy, 12 could you please read that -------- 13 A. Oh, here I'm sorry. 14 Q. Could you be kind enough to read that -------- 15 that first full paragraph? 16 A. Which one? This one that starts 17 "Unfortunately"? 18 Q . Yes. 19 A. Okay. "Unfortunately the solution to the 20 problem will initially involve our 21 withdrawal of Aroclor 1254 and 1260 from 22 the market place. Followed by a 23 concerted effort to prove that Aroclor 24 1242 is biodegradable. If we can prove 25 that Aroclor 1242 is biodegradable then JUDY COMP & ASSOCIATES WATER PCB-SD0000042277 238 1 with sufficient care the manufacture and 2 use of this material can continue. The 3 clearance of Aroclor 1242 will in turn 4 clear materials such as 1221, 1232, etc. 5 and possibly even Aroclor 1248." 6 Q Okay. Do you recall writing that? 7 A I don't recall specifically writing that, 8 no . 9 Q Do you have a general recollection of 10 writing something like that? 11 A Yes. 12 Q And do you have that general recollection 13 in the context of the time of this 14 document, which appears to be October or 15 December, 1969? 16 A I'm sorry. 17 Q October or November, 1969? 18 A I can't argue with the date. I don't 19 recollect it specifically. I don't know 20 what I was doing in 1969 specifically -------- 21 that specifically. I apologize for my 22 inability to do that, but I just don't. 23 Q The second sentence what you read, 24 mentions, quote, "A concerted effort to 25 prove that Aroclor 1242 is JUDY COMP & ASSOCIATES WATER PCB-SD0000042278 239 1 biodegradable." Do you recall that 2 effort taking place? 3 A . Yes. 4 Q. Then the next sentence reads, "If we can 5 prove that Aroclor 1242 is biodegradable, 6 then with sufficient care, the 7 manufacture and use of this material can 8 continue." Do you recall proving that 9 Aroclor 1242 was biodegradable? 10 A. Ye s . 11 Q. How did you do that? 12 A. Through the semicontinuous activated 13 sludge studies, through the River 14 Die-away studies, through all the efforts 15 that we incurred. 16 Q. Are these -------- 17 A . We-------- 18 Q. Are these the studies that we looked at 19 yesterday? 20 A . Some of them, yes. 21 Q You mentioned you couldn't recall any 22 other studies than -------- o t h e r than what 23 looked at. Do you now r e c a 11 studies 24 other than what we looked at ------- 25 A . No . JUDY COMP & ASSOCIATES WATER PCB-SD0000042279 240 1 Q. -------- in terms of those documents? '2 A. I -------- I'm ------- that's a very convoluted 3 question. Can you ask that in a more 4 direct fashion, please, so I can 5 understand what I'm answering? 6 Q. Yesterday, I showed you Exhibits -------- 7 A. If I had a tail I'd feel like I was being 8 jerked around by that question, very 9 frankly, so since I'm attempting to be as 10 honest and as straightforward as 11 possible, I'd appreciate it if you could 12 clarify that question. 13 Q. Yesterday, I showed you Exhibits 328 and 14 329 -------- and, I'm sorry, 330 -------- and I 15 asked you if you remembered any 16 biodegradation studies other than the 17 studies that are reflected in these 18 Exhibits, and you said, "No, I don't 19 recall." Could you show me which of 20 these studies is a reference in these 21 documents, as you said, proved that -------- 22 proved that Aroclor 1242 is 23 biodegradable? 24 MR. ZIMMER: If it is indeed in one 25 of these studies. JUDY COMP & ASSOCIATES WATER PCB-SD0000042280 241 1 MR. KASHANI: But he said he '2 doesn't recall any other. 3 MR. ZIMMER: Right. Does he have 4 to recall all of them? Does he get 5 penalty points for not remembering 6 every single piece of paper that was 7 - generated? 8 A. This is ridiculous. I published an 9 article in a peer group--------peer revie w, 10 journal that clearly indicated that 11 Aroclor 1242 was biodegradable. 12 Q. What wa s------- 13 A. The information was presented as part of 14 the presentation to the President's 15 Council on Environmental Quality 16 Interdisciplinary Group as being 17 degradable. Now you're asking me to look 18 back at a segmented time frame, 1969, I 19 believe, December to February of 1970, on 20 three reports, which may or may not be 21 complete renditions of what was going on 22 at that point in time, and you're asking 23 me to judge from that information whether 24 or not Aroclor 1242 is degradable. I 25 don't understand that. JUDY COMP & ASSOCIATES WATER PCB-SD0000042281 242 1 Q. You said that at some point you proved *2 that Aroc'lor 1242 was biodegradable. 3 A. That's correct. 4 Q. Do you recall the study or studies that 5 proved that Aroclor 1242 is 6 biodegradable? 7 A . Yes. 8 Q. Which studies were those? 9 A. They are published. The S e m i c o n t i n u o u s 10 Activated Sludge study showed that 11 Aroclor 1242 biodegraded at roughly about 12 20 percent of the material every 13 forty-eight hours. 14 Q. When was that study published? 15 A . I don't know. I ' d have to look in the 16 record. But I can look. It would have 17 to be, probably i n the 1970s. 18 Q Would it be the -- after 1972? 19 A . Could be. I'd have to look. 20 Q. Do you remember when the work was 21 performed? 22 A. Not really. 23 Q. Specifically, prior to that date of 24 publication? A year prior, two years 25 prior. JUDY COMP & ASSOCIATES WATER PCB-SD0000042282 243 1 A. I don't remember that specifically. 2 Q. Was the work performed before 1970? 3 A. I just said I don't remember that 4 specifically. 5 Q. And did the studies show that all of the 6 PCBs in Aroclor 1242 degraded or the 7 lower chlorinated PCBs? 8 A. What the study demonstrated was that to 9 one degree or another, the degradation 10 rate was proportional to the degree of 11 chlorination, so what we were able to 12 observe during the time frame of the 13 study, was that the lower chlorinated 14 materials degraded more rapidly than the 15 higher chlorinated materials. During the 16 time frame of the study, we were unable 17 to observe any significant degradation on 18 those things that we began to call 19 refractory isomers. 20 Q. And these refractory isomers are the PCBs 21 with five or more chlorines? 22 A. Correct. 23 Q. So, during the course of the study, you 24 saw that the PCBs in Aroclor 1242, which 25 had four or fewer chlorines were JUDY COMP & ASSOCIATES WATER PCB-SD0000042283 244 1 degrading? '2 A. Correct. 3 Q. But that the PCBs in Aroclor 1242, the 4 refractory PCBs in Aroclor 1242 were not 5 degrading over the course of your study? 6 A. During the time frame observed, that's 7 correct. 8 Q. And were these the refractory isomers 9 that were reflected in Exhibit Three . 10 Thirty-six as being about 10 percent of 11 Aroclor 1242? 12 A. Right. "Refractory" is a cute scientific 13 word for slow. 14 Q. So, your study that you were just 15 describing, the study that was published 16 in the mid-seventies that you described, 17 during the course of the work that led to 18 that study and led to that paper, 19 approximately 10 percent of the PCBs in 20 Aroclor 1242 were not observed to 21 degrade; is that correct? 22 A. I don't know that to be correct to that 23 level of detail. 24 Q. Well ------- 25 A. I stated what I knew earlier in answers JUDY COMP & ASSOCIATES WATER PCB-SD0000042284 245 1 to questions you just asked me. 2 Q. So, you saw that the refractory isomers 3 were not degrading during the course of 4 your study? 5 A . That's correct. 6 Q. And this is a study that you referred to 7 earlier as proving that Aroclor 1242 is 8 biodegradable? 9 A. Correct. 10 Q. Were there anystudies that you can 11 recall at any time which showed a greater 12 degree of biodegradability or a greater 13 percentage of biodegradabi1ity than 14 reflected in this study? 15 A. This study showed acertain amount of 16 biodegradability. 17 MR. ZIMMER: Do you have the study 18 so that we can -------- 19 MR. KASHANI: Unfortunately, we 20 don' t . 21 MR. ZIMMER: Okay. 22 MR. KASHANI: It has not been 23 produced to us. 24 MR. ZIMMER: That's not correct -------- 25 THE WITNESS: It's in the open JUDY COMP & ASSOCIATES WATER PCB-SD0000042285 246 1 literature. I mean --------- 2 MR. KASHANI: And also, it's 3 somewhat later than the time period 4 of this case. 5 Q. But in any case, do you recall any 6 studies that showed a greater degree of 7 biodegradabi1ity of Aroclor 1242 than 8 reflected in that study? 9 A. Do I recall any studies that show any 10 greater degradability than shown in the 11 published work? 12 Q . Yes. 13 A. Not specifically. Which doesn't preclude 14 that it didn't occur. 15 MR. KASHANI: Let's take a break. 16 (OFF RECORD) 17 Q. I'm going to refer you back to the 18 deposition from the Outboard Marine case. 19 Let me re fer you to page 103 -- -- 20 beginning at page 103, and cont inuing to 21 page 105. And what I'd like to do is 22 introduce the cover page, page 3 and the 23 signature page, the certificate -- 24 A . Uh-huh (a ffirmative) --25 Q . -------- along with those pages as - JUDY COMP & ASSOCIATES WATER PCB-SD0000042286 247 1 MR. KASHAN I: Well, let's start '2 with introducing the cover page and 3 signature page and the notary's 4 signature as an Exhibit. Just call 5 this the Exhibit next in order. 6 (Thereupon the Court Reporter 7 marked the pertinent document as 8 PLAINTIFF'S EXHIBIT NUMBER 337-A) 9 Q. And then let's go to pages 103 to 105, .. 10 beginning on page 103, where it -------- 11 there's a question down near the bottom 12 of the page that says, "Well, you had run 13 enough known samples to convince you that 14 you could find what you knew was there by 15 mid-1969, correct?" and going on to page 16 105, ending with your answer in the 17 middle of page 105, which reads, "Many of 18 them were, yes. We had a practice, as we 19 pulled up notebooks periodically, these 20 would go to the library, if I remember 21 correctly, for microfilming and things of 22 that sort, and then we would get them 23 back and retain them ourselves. But -v * 24 everything was kept. It was a general 25 practice to retain everything." I'd like JUDY COMP & ASSOCIATES WATER PCB-SD0000042287 248 1 for you to read over that testimony "2 starting with that indicated page on 103 3 and going to page 105. 4 A. (Witness complies with request) . 5 MR. KASHANI: And we'll introduce 6 that portion as the next Exhibit. 7 (Thereupon the Court Reporter 8 marked the pertinent document as 9 PLAINTIFF'S EXHIBIT NUMBER 3 3 8 - A) , 10 Q. Do you recall ------- 11 A. Can I have the first one that was 12 introduced as an Exhibit to make sure 13 we're talking about the same document? 14 It's just this several hundred page 15 document. (Witness peruses document). 16 Okay. 17 Q. Do you recall giving that testimony? 18 A. I recall giving the testimony. 19 Q. It's the testimony that I've indicated 20 beginning on the question on page 103 21 that I read and ending with your answer 22 on page 105, which I read. Was that 23 testimony true and accurate? 24 A . Yes-. 25 Q. This Outboard Marine deposition was taken JUDY COMP & ASSOCIATES WATER PCB-SD0000042288 249 1 about ten years ago. Do you know today 2 ------- let me go back a second. Page 105 it 3 refers to lab notebooks. As you sit here 4 today, do you know where those lab 5 notebooks might be or if Monsanto kept 6 those? 7 A. I don't know where they might be, and I 8 don't know if Monsanto kept those. 9 Q. Thank you. I refer you to testimony 10 beginning on page 66 of the deposition, 11 and beginning with the point -------- the 12 question which reads, "Did you do any 13 other type of sampling or analyses 14 besides water and sediment?" and going to 15 your answer on page 68 where the question 16 asked is, "Those were the first 17 environmental samples that you ran?", 18 question mark. And your answer is, 19 "Yes." I wonder if you could read that 20 portion, beginning with the question on 21 page 66 and going to your answer on page 22 6 8. 23 D o you want me to read that aloud? 24 No ,. You don't have to read it aloud 25 A. Just read it? JUDY COMP & ASSOCIATES WATER PCB-SD0000042289 250 1 Q. Yes. 2 MR.- KASHANI: I want to mark this 3 as Exhibit next in line. 4 (OFF RECORD) 5 (While off the record the Court 6 Reporter marked the pertinent 7 . document as PLAINTIFF'S EXHIBIT 8 NUMBER THREE 339-A.) 9 A. Okay. I've completed reading it. 10 Q. Again, with reference to the testimony 11 that I delineated from the question on 12 page 66 to the answer on page 68, do you 13 recall giving that testimony? 14 A. Not specifically. 15 Q. Was that testimony true and accurate? 16 A. I think, to the best of my recollection, 17 it was. I was under oath at the time 18 that it was taken. 19 Q. Do you recall the fish samples that are 20 mentioned in this testimony? 21 A . Nope. 22 Q. Page 67, there's an- answer that refers to 23 ------- the answer is down near the middle of 24 the page. There's a question first that 25 reads, "Why would you find higher levels JUDY COMP & ASSOCIATES WATER PCB-SD0000042290 251 1 in fish?" And your answer was, "The '2 reason that eventually came out of it was 3 a little thing called bioaccumulation." 4 Is that bioaccumu 1 ation referring to the 5 biological buildup of PCBs in fatty 6 tissues? 7 A. It refers to the selective partitioning 8 of low levels of material from water into 9 an organism's lipid---------lipid materials.. 10 And that's called, I think, 11 bioaccumu 1 ation . At least it's kind of 12 like my definition of it. 13 Q. In the context of this testimony, is that 14 referring to PCBs traveling and being 15 collected in the fatty tissues of fish? 16 A . Yes. 17 Q. Thank you. Dr. Tucker, do you remember a 18 project of getting samples from some of 19 Monsanto's customers, from their plants, 20 to analyze for PCB content? 21 A. Yes, sir. 22 Q. Do you remember who worked on that 23 project? 24 A. Not specifically. 25 Q. Do you remember when that project began? JUDY COMP & ASSOCIATES WATER PCB-SD0000042291 1 '2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 252 A . No, sir. Q. Do you remember the purpose of that project? A. I think there were --------- not specifically --------- there were many purposes, probably. Q. Do you remember generally any of those purposes? A . The only thing I r was that there were---------there was an int e rest to see ou r own customers' operations where they were using the mate rial to d e t e r m i n e what was there, and I seem to recall in one case that there were some sedimentation ponds that had fluids in the bottom of them, and they wanted to reclaim and/or develop ways for reclaiming and/or recovering these materials and recycling them. Q. Do you recall which customer that was with the ponds? A. Not specifically. Q. Let me refer you to a portion of your deposition starting on page 86 and going to page 87. MR. KASHAN I: Mark this Exhibit. (Thereupon the Court Reporter JUDY COMP & ASSOCIATES WATER PCB-SD0000042292 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 253 marked the pertinent document as PLAINTIFF'S EXHIBIT NUMBER 340-A). Q I refer you to page 86 beginning about mid-way down the page where it says, "Question: Was there a project set up within Monsanto to provide you with samples for analyses from customers?" And your answer was, "Yes." And then going to page 87, where your answer ---------- or where the question is, "So you were provided with the samples he took and you analyzed those samples for PCBs as part of your overall assignment to confirm that PCBs were in the environment?" And you answered, "Yes." I'd like you to read that portion, please. A Okay. I've read it. Q Do you recall giving that testimony? A Not that ---------- not specifically I recall giving the testimony. Q All right. Was the testimony I ' v e indicated from that portion on page 8 6 to the portion on page 87 true and accurate ? I was under oath at the time I said these things, so, I would assume that i t was. JUDY COMP & ASSOCIATES WATER PCB-SD0000042293 254 1 Q Do you 2 A . T O the 3 truthful and accurate. 4 Q. Does this refresh any recollection of who 5 might have been involved in the sampling 6 for you? 7 A. Yeah. Don Pogue. I recall Don Pogue 8 being involved in the project. 9 Q.Whowashe? .. 10 A. Well, starting with the most simple, I 11 believe he was an employee --------- Monsanto 12 employee. I believe he was in the 13 marketing and sales or technical customer 14 interfacing area, to the best of my 15 recollection . 16 Q. How did Don Pogue go about collecting 17 these samples, if you know? 18 MR. ZIMMER: Calls for speculation. 19 A. I don't know. 20 Q. Did you ever deal directly with any of 21 the customers in the context of these 22 samples, or obtaining these samples? 23 A. It wasn't ------------ that was not the way that 24 we did that, no. 25 Q. Well, how was it done? JUDY COMP & ASSOCIATES WATER PCB-SD0000042294 255 1 A. In general, it was donethrough an '2 interface' that dealt with the customer. 3 Q. What do you mean by "interface"? 4 A. Well, a project manager like Don Pogue 5 might be considered a project manager. 6 In this particular instance, as I recall, 7 it was his job to contact the customers 8 and --------- and I don't know which customers 9 or how they selected them. I wasn't . 10 involved in that. But to contact them 11 make arrangements to get the samples, get 12 them to the laboratory, get us to analyze 13 them. We'd analyze them and provide the 14 information back to them, and he, in 15 turn, would then provide it to the 16 customer. That's the way it worked. 17 Q. You mean you pr o-v ided the information 18 back to Don Pogue or some equivalent --------- 19 A. Whoever. 20 Q. --------- Monsanto employee? 21 A. Correct. 22 Q. And the information would flow on from 23 there? 24 A. Correct.That's a typical project 25 manager type approach that's taken for JUDY COMP & ASSOCIATES WATER PCB-SD0000042295 256 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 most t h i n g s , Q Do you recall if the customers were told that on e of the purposes for taking the samples was with an idea of reclamation efforts? A. I don't recall ----------- I have no knowledge that customers were specifically told that. I knew that that was part of it. Q. Did you personally ever notify any customers that they had PCBs in samples collected from their facilities? A . No . MR. ZIMMER: Lacks foundation. Why would he? He hasn't told you he had any customer contact. I marvel at the time we've spent on things like that that are outside of the Witness' area. A. For the record, my job was not to contact customers or interface with them. MR, ZIMMER: He knows that. Just answer the question. Q. Do you recall a meeting with representatives from NCR concerning their use of PCBs that took place about 1970? JUDY COMP & ASSOCIATES WATER PCB-SD0000042296 1 '2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 257 A . No, I don't. Q. I refer you to the Exhibit next in order Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. Q. A. (Thereupon the Court Reporter marked the pertinent document as PLAINTIFF'S EXHIBIT NUMBER 341-A). This is Exhibit 341, and I ask you to review that. (Witness complies with request). .. It's a one page. I gave you two copies. Oh. Okay. I've reviewed it. Do you have any general recollection of this document? No, sir. Does this trigger any recollection of a meeting with representatives from NCR? No, sir. What about the next Exhibit? MR. KASHANI: Mark that 342, please . (Thereupon the Court Reporter marked the pertinent document as Do PLAINTIFF'S EXHIBIT NUMBER you recall this document? 342-A). 5 - ' * No, sir. JUDY COMP & ASSOCIATES WATER PCB-SD0000042297 258 1 '2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q. Does this trigger any recollection of a visit with NCR? A . No, sir. Q. Turning to the second page of this document. This is at page TRAN 085271. Near the top, under the heading, "Objectives" Number 1. "Review the current state of knowledge in areas of toxicology, biodegradation and analysis. of --------- I believe that's --------- MIPB, HB-40, and Aroclor 1242." Do you know what "MIPB" means? A . Yes. Q. What is that? A. What does it mean? Q . Yes. A. It means monoisopropy1 biphenyl. Q. Do you know --------- was that a proposed replacement product for NCR, to your knowledge ? A , Yes. Q. Why was it proposed' as a replacement? A . For NCR? Q . Yes. A. Because it did the same job that Aroclor JUDY COMP & ASSOCIATES WATER PCB-SD0000042298 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 259 Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. 1242 did. Was NCR using Aroclor 1242 previously? I believe that has been documented, yes. And what were they using it for? As an encapsulation fluid for carbonless carbon paper. Are these those triplicate forms and quadruplicate forms? Theycanbe,yes. And what was HB-40? I believe HB-40 stood for 40 percent hydrogenated biphenyl. What does that mean, "hydrogenated"? It means that biphenyl has been reacted with hydrogen such that it's taken up 40 percent of the theoretical amount that it could take up if it were completely hydrogenated. Do either MIBP or HB-40 contain chlorine? No . Are either of them PCBs? No . Do you recall if NCR ever substituted another product for Aroclor 1242 in its application? JUDY COMP & ASSOCIATES WATER PCB-SD0000042299 260 1 A. I believe they did, but I don't recall it '2 specifically. 3 Q. Do you remember if it was HB-40? 4 A. As I said, I don't recall it 5 specifically. 6 Q. Did you have any involvement in any 7 discussions at Monsanto pertaining to 8 NCR's use of Aroclor 1242 and the 9 possible substitution of another produ c.t 10 for Aroclor 1242? 11 A. Go through that question again, please? 12 Q. Do you recall any discussions you had 13 with individuals at Monsanto regarding 14 NCR's use of Aroclor 1242 or NCR's 15 substitution of another product for 16 Aroclor 1242? 17 A . No. 18 Q. Do you know why NCR substituted another 19 product for Aroclor 1242? 20 A. I do not know why NCR did. 21 Q. Do you recall a meeting that took place 22 in 1970 with representatives from General 23 Electric? 24 A. Vaguely. 25 Q. Let me show you the Exhibit. JUDY COMP & ASSOCIATES WATER PCB-SD0000042300 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 261 A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. Q A. Q. (Thereupon the Court Reporter marked the pertinent document as PLAINTIFF'S EXHIBIT NUMBER 343-A). If it's the one that I recall vaguely, and I can explain to you why it was vaguely. Was there more than one meeting with General Electric? I haven't the faintest. There could have been. (Witness peruses document). I refer you to the Exhibit next in order, Exhibit 343, and ask you to review that, and then ask you if that refreshes your recollection about meeting with General Electric. (Witness peruses document). Yes, this is the meeting that I vaguely remember. This meeting took place in January of 1 970? Yes. Did representatives of Gene r a 1 Electric come to St. Louis to meet w i t h Monsanto representatives ? It indicates that they did. Do you recall the meeting was in St . JUDY COMP & ASSOCIATES WATER PCB-SD0000042301 262 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Louis? A . No, I don't. Q. Do you recall generally what was discussed at the meeting? A. Let me explain why I recall the meeting. I recall Mr. Edward L. Raab from General Electric, and I recall him slamming his fist on the table and telling us that if we quit manufacturing PCBs,they'd sue u.s . Q. Do you know what General Electric used PCBs for? A. Ye s . Q. What did they use PCBs for? A. They used them as a dielectric fluid. Q. Is that in capacitors and transformers? A . Yes. Q. Do you recall ----------- I'm referring you to the page two of this Exhibit at TRAN 023510 under the heading of C. Biodegradeabi1ity of PCBs. The second sentence mentions, "Drs. Richard, Keller and Tucker discussed biodegradeabi1ity studies by Monsanto at" --------- is that Ru abon? A . Ruabon. JUDY COMP & ASSOCIATES WATER PCB-SD0000042302 2 63 1 '2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q. Ruabon? A . Ruabon. Q. Ruabon. That's spelled R-u-a-b-o-n ---------- "and elsewhere." Do you recallthose discussions? A. Not specifically. Q. Do you recall any discussions at this meeting about the biodegradabi1ity of Aroclor 1242? , A. Not specifically. Q. Let me point out for the record that there's a mark --------- I think there's a mark on your copy ---------- it may not have come out. It's in pencil. It's very light --------- on page two. That mark is not part of the Exhibit, and I will provide a clean Exhibit for the court reporter. There's some handwriting up on top of page two. That is not part of the Exhibit, and that will be removed. That was--------- MR . ZIMMER: It's the copy that he ' s been s ho wn, so i t 's going to stay in the Exhibit MR . KASHAN I : Well , I can show you JUDY COMP & ASSOCIATES WATER PCB-SD0000042303 264 1 an Exhibit without that, or one that, 2 we--------- 3 MR . ZIMMER: Well , you can do that, 4 but -- 5 MR . KASHANI:: Why don ' t we use this 6 Exhibit? 7 MR : ZIMMER: -- this one is going 8 t o stay in there as well because 9 it ' s the one that he referred to. 10 MR . KASHANI:: Let ' s use that one. 11 MR . ZIMMER: No . This one's 12 staying in the record. You can add 13 another one if you want, but it's up 14 to you what you want to show him. 15 That one also has it. 16 MR. KASHANI: This one also has it 17 too, so --------- 18 Q. Well, does that mark affect in any way 19 your understanding of this Exhibit or 20 your recollection of the meeting? 21 A. Not really. 22 Q. Does it mean anything to you? 23 A . No . 24 Q. Were there any meetings at Monsanto prior 25 to the General Electric meeting to JUDY COMP & ASSOCIATES WATER PCB-SD0000042304 265 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 discuss what would be discussed at the General Electric meeting? A. I don't recall any. Q. I'll show you Exhibit --------- the next in order, by the way, do you recognize this Exhibit, xhibit Three 343? A . No. Q. Do you know if Exhibit 343 reflects what took place at the General Electric meeting? A. I couldn't swear to it, no. MR. KASHANI: I'm entering the next Exhibit. That will be 344. (Thereupon the Court Reporter marked the pertinent document as PLAINTIFF'S EXHIBIT NUMBER 344-A). Q. Do you recognize this document? A . No, sir. Q. Do you recognize the handwriting? A . No, sir. Q. Does this document trigger or refresh any recollection of a possible meeting prior to the General Electric meeting to discuss topics for the General Electric meeting? JUDY COMP & ASSOCIATES WATER PCB-SD0000042305 1 "2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 266 A . No, sir. (Thereupon the Court Reporter marked the pertinent document as PLAINTIFF'S EXHIBIT NUMBER 3 4 5 -A) . Q. I'll show you one last Exhibit. A. Okay. Q. It's Exhibit 345. Do you recognize this do cument ? A . No , s i r . _ Q. Does this document trigger any further recollection of what was discussed at the General Electric meeting --------- A . No, sir. Q. --------- of January, 1970? Do you recall which Aroclors General Electric used predominantly? A. No, sir. I don't. Q. Was Aroclor 1242 used in capacitors --------- used in dielectric applications? A. Was the question both or one or the other? Q. Let's start with dielectric applications. A . Yes. Q. Was it used in capacitors? A. I believe so. JUDY COMP & ASSOCIATES WATER PCB-SD0000042306 1 '2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 267 Q. Was it used in transformers? A . Yes. Q. Did Westinghouse use Aroclor 1242? A. They used polychlorinated biphenyls. I can't remember for sure, but it seems to me that Westinghouse had its own trade name and made up their own fluids. Q. Was that Interteen? A. That seems-----------that would---------------yeah. Since you brought it up, that sounds like what the name was, Interteen. Q. And do you know what Aroclors or PCBs went into Interteen? A. I think it depended upon the application. It depended upon whether the unit was going to go in a very cold climate or a very warm climate. The whole --------- the whole reason these are called dielectric fluids was because they stayed fluid, and the fluidicity of the material was of particular importance. So, for example, if they were going to use it in Alaska where it was very cold, they would use a lower chlorinated material --------- to the extent they could safely --------- to keep it JUDY COMP & ASSOCIATES WATER PCB-SD0000042307 268 1 fluid. '2 Q. I'm sorry --------- a more chlorinated? 3 A. Lower chlorinated material to the extent 4 that they could, because the chlorine to 5 hydrogen ratio determined its safety from 6 an explosive, fire viewpoint. 7 Q. Okay. 8 A. So it depended --------- 9 MR. KASHANI: Let's take a break., 10 (OFF RECORD) 11 Q. Dr. Tucker, we had --------- 12 MR. KASHANI: --------- and counsel, we had 13 inadvertently produced copies --------- 14 the copy of Exhibit 343 that we 15 produced inadvertently had some 16 marks on the second page. That 17 production was inadvertent, and we 18 did not mean to waive any rights by 19 producing that. In fact, my copy, 20 unfortunately, did not contain those 21 marks which is why the production 22 occurred. That's why I was unaware 23 of it. I'd like to introduce 24 another Exhibit and mark it Exhibit 25 next in order --------- JUDY COMP & ASSOCIATES WATER PCB-SD0000042308 269 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 MR . ZIMMER: You can substitute it i f you like. I don't really care. MR . KASHANI:: Okay. MR . ZIMMER: If you want, instead o f 343. That'1s fine. MR . KASHANI:: Okay. Let's . substitute this document instead of Exhibit 343. This document is in all respects identical to Exhibit 3 4 3 except -- I have a---------let me go back. I have a document which is in all respects identical to Exhibit 343 except it does not contain the marks that were put on later. This document I have in my hand is identical to what Monsanto produced to us, and I would like to substitute this document for the existing Exhibit 343, and this document will become Exhibit 343. MR. ZIMMER: That's fine. See, I'm not such a bad guy. Q. Dr. Tucker, I'm going to show you the Exhibit next in order, Exhibit 345 ---------- 346, I'm sorry --------- JUDY COMP & ASSOCIATES WATER PCB-SD0000042309 270 1 (Thereupon the Court Reporter 2 marked the pertinent document as 3 PLAINTIFF'S EXHIBIT NUMBER 346-A). 4 Q. ---------- and ask you if you recognize this 5 document? 6 A. No, sir. 7 Q. This is a document that's been provided 8 by Monsanto. It appears to be an 9 organizational chart, dated June 1, 1972. 10 I wonder if you recognize some of the 11 names and relationships on the chart? 12 A. Are you asking me if I recognize ---------- is 13 that a question yet? 14 Q. Yes. Do you recognize any of the names 15 16 A . Yes. 17 Q ---------or relationships on the chart? Do 18 you recognize Mr. C. W. Roos, who is 19 listed at the top? 20 A . Yes, I do . 21 Q . Who is he ? 22 A . He was the Director' of Technology 23 P 1 a n n i ng and Evaluat ion as it says here 24 Q Did he have anything to do with PCB s or 25 functional fluids? Start with PCBs JUDY COMP & ASSOCIATES WATER PCB-SD0000042310 271 1 A. Would you define anything to do with ---------- 2 Q. Would be involved in the manufacture or 3 testing or production. 4 A. No, sir. 5 Q. What was his job? 6 A. He was Director of Technology Planning 7 and Evaluation. 8 Q . What did that mean? 9 A . It meant that the following groups that 10 are shown there reported to him. He was 11 really --------- let's see --------- let me try to 12 remember. He had the --------- the analytical 13 or applied sciences people reported to 14 him, which was a, you know, support --------- 15 service support group. He had process 16 technology group , which, again, was a 17 service support group and that kind o f 18 routine. It's a position much like mine 19 right now where I'm Director of 20 Analytical Programs for Clemson Technical 21 Center. I mean, I don't know what kind 22 of level of detaile d explanation you want 23 in terms of what the job entails or 24 entailed. 25 Q Do you know when he joined Monsanto? JUDY COMP & ASSOCIATES WATER PCB-SD0000042311 272 1 A . No, si r . 2 Q Was he with Mons anto in 1967? 3 A . I don' t know. 4 Q About 1968, 1969 ? 5 A . I don ' t know. 6 Q If you go to the first column on the 7 left. you have 1 isted T.M. Patrick. 8 A . Right. 9 Q Do you remember him? 10 A . Yes. I re me mb e r Tracy Patrick. 11 Q Who wa s he? 12 A . He was Bob Kelle r ' s boss. 13 Q Did he have any involvement with PCBs 14 MR. ZIMMER : I'm sorry. Which 15 f rame are we talking about? As 16 the date of this --------- 17 MR. KASHANI: During the time that 18 -- let's define the date as between 19 1968 and ----------- 1967 and 1972. 20 MR. ZIMMER: All right. Thank you. 21 A I have problems with --- still have 22 problems with the involvement. 23 Obviously, he was my boss' boss, and I V* 24 worked on PCBs. So, if that's 25 involvement, then I would agree to your JUDY COMP & ASSOCIATES WATER PCB-SD0000042312 273 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 stipulation he had involvement. But, I mean, I don't understand the question. If I answer "yes" is --------- I really don't understand the question. What do you mean by "involvement"? Q. Did you have any discussions with him concerning your work with PCBs? A . No. Q. Did you ever report to him or send memos to him, to your knowledge? A . No . Q. What about Mr. Marchand, O.J. Marchand, the Facilities Supervisor? Do you know him? Or did you know him? A . Yes. Q. What was his job? A. Facilities Supervisor. Q. Was he in charge of the lab? A. Physical building, yes. Q. Was he in charge of obtaining equipment? A . No . Q. Did he have any role in your obtaining equipment for your PCB work? A. He may have. Q. Do you know what that role might have JUDY COMP & ASSOCIATES WATER PCB-SD0000042313 1 '2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 274 been? A. It could have been as simple as opening the door so that they could be delivered. I mean, he was in charge of the physical facilities, so you'd have to be more specific in terms of what kind of a role you're talking about. Q. Did he have to authorize a requisition or an expenditure --------- . A. I don't know whether he was in the authorization trail. I don't recall. Q. Dr. Keller is ----------- explored that. And then we have group leaders. What are group leaders? A. Group leaders are individuals that lead groups of people that are given certain types of assignments. Q. You are listed here as a group leader; is that correct? A . Yes. Q. When did you become a group leader? A. I believe I commented earlier, about three years after I joined the company, but I don't recall exactly. Q. That would have been about 1970? JUDY COMP & ASSOCIATES WATER PCB-SD0000042314 275 1 '2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A . Well, it --------- well, let's see --------- let's see, I think we've established that I joined the company sometime in the last quarter of 1967, so three years from that, it could --------- it could be 1970. Q. Did your group have a name? A. Analytical chemistry group. Q. Do you recall which people in that group were involved in the PCB work you were ... doing? A. Probably most all of them. Q. Do you know how many people were in the group? A. Not specifically, no. Q. Do you recall any names? A. I recalled some of those names for you earlier . Q. That was a Mr. ---------- Litsch ------------- was that A. Litschgi. Q. Litschgi? A. Right. Q. Do you know how to spell that? A. L-i-t-s-c-h-g-i. Q. And who else? JUDY COMP & ASSOCIATES WATER PCB-SD0000042315 276 1 A. Bill Meaz. 2 Q. Mr. Mieuer? 3 A. Jim Mieuer was not in my group. He was 4 in M.W. Dietrich's group, which was the 5 spectroscopy group. 6 Q. Did the spectroscopy group have any 7 involvement with the PCB work? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. And Mr. Dietrich was in charge ---------- Dr. 10 Dietrich or Mr. Dietrich? 11 A. Doctor. 12 Q. Was he in charge of that group? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. Do you know who worked for him or under 15 him? 16 A. Jim Mieuer was one ofthem. Bernie 17 Katlowski, Ozzie Knast. Ozzie actually 18 worked for me some too, now, that I 19 recall. Gary Mappes --------- those are names 20 that come --------- that come to me in 21 recollection . 22 Q. Do you know if any of thesegentlemen are 23 still at Monsanto? 24 A. Let's see. Not specifically. 25 Q. What about the gentlemenyou mentioned JUDY COMP & ASSOCIATES WATER PCB-SD0000042316 277 1 earlier that was working in your group, ' 2 if they are still at Monsanto? 3 A. Jerry Litschgi is still at Monsanto. 4 Bill Meaz was at Monsanto, but last I 5 heard, he had muscular dystrophy, and I 6 don't know whether he is still with them. 7 Another name that's just been sparked up 8 --------- Bob Kaley worked for me too. 9 Q. How do you spell that? 10 A. K-a-l-e-y. 11 Q. What did Mr. Emery do? E.M. Emery, or if 12 it's Dr. Emery? 13 A . You know. I don't r emember if it's Doctor 14 or not. I think it was,. Ed Emery was 15 the group leader of the gas 16 chromatography group. 17 Q. Did he have involvement with the PCB 18 work? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. What did he do with the PCBs? 21 A. His involvement with thePCBs, as I 22 recollect, was mainly from aproduct 23 viewpoint, in terms of composition, those 24 kinds of things. 25 Q. Did he analyze Aroclors for composition? JUDY COMP & ASSOCIATES WATER PCB-SD0000042317 278 1 A . Yes. 2 Q. Was he the fellow who analyzed, or did he 3 do any analyses of Aroclors for PCB 4 composition in terms of number of isomers 5 and isomers in the --------- 6 A. Ed was a group leader. It was doubtful 7 he did any analysis himself. 8 Q. Do you know if he supervised work that 9 in v o1v e d determining the isomers of 10 Aroclors? 11 A . He may have. 12 Q What about Mr. -- - is that Fowl er ? 13 A . Lou Fowler. 14 Q Lou Fowler? What was his role? 15 A . Lou Fowler was a group leader o f what 16 would call the process instrumentation 17 group. 18 Q. What is that? 19 A. When you have a process that's 20 manufacturing something, sometimes you 21 dedicate on-line instrumentation that 22 continuously monitors that process and 23 analyzes a stream for something. That's, 24 you know, a fairly simplified definition 25 of what a process ---------- in-line process JUDY COMP & ASSOCIATES WATER PCB-SD0000042318 279 1 monitor is. 2 Q. Was Mr. Fowler or his group involved in 3 any way in monitoring the process for 4 production of Aroclors? 5 A. Not to my knowledge. 6 Q. Do you know if Dr. Dietrich or Dr. Emery 7 or Mr. Fowler or Dr. Fowler are still at 8 Monsanto? 9 A. I think Ed's retired --------- Emery. Fowler, 10 I think, died, and Dietrich may or may 11 not be at Monsanto. But I don't know 12 specifically that any of them are. 13 Q. Do you know where they might be living? 14 A . No, sir. 15 Q. Who is --------- is that Hinchen under Senior 16 Research Specialist? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. Who is he? 19 A. He was Senior Research Specialist. He 20 was a statistician. 21 Q. Did he work with one of the groups listed 22 above? 23 A. He worked with all of them. He worked 24 for Keller. 25 Q. What did he do? JUDY COMP & ASSOCIATES WATER PCB-SD0000042319 280 1 A. He was a statistician. He would develop 2 statistical models. He would look at 3 assemblies of information and analyze 4 them from a statistical viewpoint to talk 5 about how true, how accurate, how precise 6 ---------- you know, in general, to numerically 7 describe the properties of assemblies of 8 numbers. That's what a statistician 9 does. . 10 Q. Did he have any involvement with the PCB 11 work? 12 A. Yes, he did. 13 Q. Did he determine confidence levels for 14 any of that work? 15 A. Yes, he did. 16 Q. And by that, I mean did he analyze your 17 data from the PCB work and determine how 18 confident you could be that that data was 19 accurate? That might not be a correct 20 21 A . No . 22 Q. ---------description. W h at did you understand 23 when I said" did he determine confidence 24 levels"? 25 A. Confidence levels, relative to the JUDY COMP & ASSOCIATES WATER PCB-SD0000042320 1 '2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13. 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 281 Q A. Q. A. Q. A. question that you asked, seemed to indicate to me how true numbers and environmental samples were that, we measured and he did not do that. What did he do, then. with respect to PCB work? He helped us make sense of the tissue residue information that we obtained from Industrial Bio-Test, and the avian, . mammalian, and aquatic exposures studies that we conducted to try to ferret out what was going on with PCBs in those types of biological systems. You mean that he would help determine whether you were actually detecting PCBs in the tissues? It could-be loosely interpreted as that, but that wasn't the focus. And what was the focus? The focus was to create pharmacokinetic models that described how PCB --------- that did a material balan ce in terms of PCBs in, PCBs out and where within the system with the box being the animal the PCBs would go. JUDY COMP & ASSOCIATES WATER PCB-SD0000042321 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 282 Q So, he helped in the determination of how much PCB remained in the animal? A Correct. Q Do you know where he is today? A No, sir. Q Is that John Hinchen? A I believe it's Jack. Q Hinchen? A Hinchen; right. As it's spelled there. H-i-n-c-h-e-n. Q This left column has individuals and titles listed in it in sort of order. Does that order, to your knowledge, accurately reflect the sort of pecking order, or the order in which people reported to other people? A No. I think it's --------- well, it depends. Q I mean, for example, did Mr. Marchand report to Mr. Patrick? A Yes. Q. Did Dr. Keller report to Mr. Marchand? A . No . Q. He reported to Mr. Patrick? A . Ye s . Q. And did the group leaders report to Dr. JUDY COMP & ASSOCIATES WATER PCB-SD0000042322 283 1 Keller? 2 A . Yes. 3 Q . And Mr. Hinchen reported to the group 4 leaders -- 5 A . No . 6 Q ---------and to Dr. Keller? 7 A . No . 8 Q . Whom did Mr. Hinchen report to? 9 A . Dr. Keller. 10 Q Turning to the second column w e see 11 Manager Process Technology. Do you 12 r e c o g n i ze that name? 13 A . Yes, I do . 14 Q . Who is that gentleman? 15 A. 01 1 ie D e G a r mo . 16 Q Did he have any involvement with Aroclors 17 or P C B s or their production? 18 A. I do not know. 19 Q, Underneath, we have J.F. Quinn. Do you 20 recognize that name? 21 A. Yes. Jack Quinn. 22 Q. Who is he ? 23 A. Section Manager in the Process Technology 24 section. 25 Q. Was he involved in the production of JUDY COMP & ASSOCIATES WATER PCB-SD0000042323 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 284 Aroclors? A. He could have been. I do not know. Q. What about D.R. Cova? A. I believe it was Daryll Cova, yeah. Q. Was he involved in the production of Aroclors? A. I do not know. Q An d under n e a t h, we have group leaders, do you know any of Mr . Caldwell, Mr. Knapp., or Mr . L y n c h ? A . Yes. Q Which one s do you know? A . Knapp's n ame , Bill . I believe W . stands for Willi a m . And Lynch I kind o f remember. Caldwell, I don't r erne mb e r . Q What did Mr . Knapp or Mr. Lynch do? A . I don't know. Q Did they have any involvement with Aroclors or PCBs? A. I don't know. Q. Looking to the third column, we see Mr. Codt, C-o-d-t. Do you recognize that name? A . No, sir. Q. Going to the last column, we see J.S. JUDY COMP & ASSOCIATES WATER PCB-SD0000042324 285 1 Metcalf. Do you recognize that name? 2 A . No, sir. 3 Q. And underneath him, we see J.C. Weber. 4 Do you recognize that name? 5 A. No, sir. 6 Q. Thank you. Mr. Tucker, do you recall any 7 trip mentioned --------- talked yesterday about 8 trips to Europe to meet with Mr. Jensen 9 and Mr. Widmark. I have taken a .. 10 deposition of Norman Johnson in this 11 case, and Mr. Johnson testified that 12 after a return from a trip to speak with 13 or meet with Jensen or Widmark, or both. 14 Dr. Richard and Mr. Johnson attended a 15 meeting where there were discussions 16 about the work going on in Sweden, and 17 Mr. Johnson testified that that meeting 18 took place in 1968. Do you remember any 19 such meeting when Dr. Richard reported on 20 results of work taking place in Europe by 21 the Swedes? 22 MR. ZIMMER: Let me ---------- before 23 you answer, I'm not sure you've got 24 the dates right. But Keller 25 testified that the trip took place JUDY COMP & ASSOCIATES WATER PCB-SD0000042325 286 1 ln 69 2 MR. KASHANI: His trip. I'm 3 referring to Dr. Richard's trip. 4 MR. ZIMMER: Okay. 5 MR. KASHANI: And Mr. Johnson's 6 testimony. 7 MR . ZIMMER: I was at Mr . 8 John son's, but I don't recall the 9 test imo n y, but if that 's accurate, 10 a n s w e r if you know of that sort of 11 meet i n g . 12 A . No . 13 Q. Mr. Johnson testified that Dr. Richard, 14 as early as 1968, suggested or urged or 15 advised --------- let's use "suggested." We 16 can check the testimony to see what Norm 17 Johnson's exact testimony was, but I'm 18 going to use the word "suggested." Mr. 19 Johnson testified that in 1968 Dr. 20 Richard suggested that Monsanto would 21 have to withdraw all Aroclors from the 22 market. Do you recall any such 23 suggestion made by Dr. Richard or anyone 24 else? 25 A . No. JUDY COMP & ASSOCIATES WATER PCB-SD0000042326 1 '2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 287 Q. Are you familiar with a Dr. Risebrough? A. Do you want to define "familiarity"? Q. Have you ever met him? A. I don't recall ever meeting him. Q. Have you ever read his papers on PCBs? A. I have read at least --------- I recall reading at least one unpublished paper, perhaps, by Risebrough. Q. Let me show you the Exhibit next in ... order. (Thereupon the Court Reporter marked the pertinent document as PLAINTIFF'S EXHIBIT NUMBER 347-A). Q. It's Exhibit 347. Do you recognize either the first page of this Exhibit or the attachment? A . No, sir. Q. The first sentence reads, "Attached is a Xerox copy of a technical paper which Scott Tucker and I picked up in Washington recently." And I imagine that "I" refers to Elmer Wheeler. Do you remember picking up Washington with Dr. a technical Wheeler? paper in * A. No, sir. JUDY COMP & ASSOCIATES WATER PCB-SD0000042327 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 288 Q. Do you remember ever seeing the technical paper that's attached to Exhibit 347? A. I don't specifically remember seeing it. Q. Do you have any general recollection of this paper? A. I have a general recollection, yes. Q. Is this a paper by Dr. Risebrough that you were mentioning --------- you mentioned earlier? _ A. I can't be sure. What I mentioned I recalled was reading an unpublished paper by Risebrough. This appears to be published. Q. Was the unpublished paper you read prior to the date of this paper? The date on this paper appears to be --------- (OFF RECORD) Q. The date on the memo is October, 1968, so presumably the paper is on or before October, 1968. A. I can't answer. I don't have a good recollection, obviously. Q. What do you remember about Dr. Risebrough's findings? A. I remember that Dr. Risebrough claimed to JUDY COMP & ASSOCIATES WATER PCB-SD0000042328 289 1 '2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 have found polychlorinated biphenyls in a variety of environmental samples somewhere on the west coast, I believe Q And d o you--------A . -- o f the United States, Q And d o you remember when you first heard about those findings? A . Not specifically. Q Was i t prior to the date of this memo. October,1968? A . I don't recall. Q. Does this memo indicate that you knew about or heard of at least some of Dr. Risebrough's. findings as of October, 1 9 68? MR. ZIMMER: Does this memo indicate that? MR. KASHANI: Well, the memo refers to Dr. Tucker and Dr. Wheeler picking up a paper that appears to be Dr. Risebrough's paper in Washington. MR. ZIMMER: You're right. Well, he's not going to answer that JUDY COMP & ASSOCIATES WATER PCB-SD0000042329 1 '2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 290 argumentative question, though. That's spurious. Because it may indicate that to you. It may indicate something else to someone else. You haven't established a foundation that he remembers this memo, and you've already asked him if he remembers picking up that paper in Washington, and he said ... "no. " MR. KASHANI: Well, he said he had some recollection. MR. ZIMMER: He said he had a general recollection of the paper. MR. KASHANI: I'm trying to establish when --------- approximately when he may have seen this paper. MR. ZIMMER: Right. And you don't need to argue with him, based on what you think this memo shows. That's not a fair question. Q. Does the memo trigger any recollection as to when you might have read this paper? A. The memo doesn't trigger any recollection. Elmer has indicated that JUDY COMP & ASSOCIATES WATER PCB-SD0000042330 291 1 '2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 we picked something up. I don't recall picking it up. I mean, Elmer could have picked it up when I was there too, but, you know --------- as I said earlier, I don't recall this. Q. Elmer, that's Elmer Wheeler? A. Correct. E.P. Wheeler. I believe E. stands for Elmer. Q. Did you have an opinion of Dr. .. Risebrough's work at the time you first heard about it? A. Not at the time ---------- probably not at the time I first heard about it. I probably would have had to review it first. Q. After reviewing it, did you formulate an opinion as to its --------- A. I recall an opinion. Q. What was your opinion? A. My opinion was that the information was interesting and plausible, but that it wasn't definitive. Q. Now this is the information that Dr. Risebrough had found trace amounts of PCBs in wildlife on the west coast? A. Dr. Risebrough had found indications of JUDY COMP & ASSOCIATES WATER PCB-SD0000042331 292 1 chlorinated hydrocarbons in environmental '2 type samples, I think primarily birds' 3 eggs and things of that sort on the west 4 coast. And I believe, subsequently, at 5 some point in time --------- he was primarily 6 looking for pesticides, like DDT and 7 Dieldren, and Lindane, and Toxaphene, and 8 a myriad of other chlorinated hydrocarbon 9 pesticides that had been intentionally .. 10 sprayed around out there and also 11 manufactured out there, and I believe ---------- 12 my recollection as it is --------- is that some 13 point in time, he became aware of the 14 Sjorn Jensen work and went back and 15 reviewed his information and seemed to 16 find a number of extra peaks that he 17 decided that he felt strongly enough that 18 these were all PCBs, and he published 19 that information. And it was based 20 strictly on electron capture gas 21 chromatography, which is not an absolute 22 identification technique in environmental 23 --------- especially in environmental samples 24 for PCB s . I' 25 Q. By "peaks" do you mean the graph readouts JUDY COMP & ASSOCIATES WATER PCB-SD0000042332 293 1 that come out from the gas chromatograph? 2 A . That's correct, 3 Q. Do you recall anyone at Monsanto 4 expressing an opinion as to Dr. 5 Risebrough1s work? 6 MR. ZIMMER: When? 7 Q. Let's start with at any time and go back. 8 A. I've just indicated that I expressed an 9 opinion, and I was at Monsanto. .. 10 Q. Anyone else? 11 A. Not really. It would have been in my 12 bailiwick to comment on the technical 13 aspects or validity of Risebrough's work, 14 specifically the analytical chemistry 15 associated with it. 16 Q. Do you recall any discussions concerning 17 Dr. Risebrough's work? 18 A . No, sir. 19 Q. Do you recall if Dr. Risebrough also made 20 the assertion that PCBs could have an 21 effect on steroids in wildlife? 22 A . Y e s . 23 Q. When did you first hear that? 24 A. I believe it was part of the papers or 25 draft papers that I saw where he had JUDY COMP & ASSOCIATES WATER PCB-SD0000042333 1 '2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 294 used, I believe, it was PCBs to invoke some microsomal enzyme response. Q. Was that in live animals? A. I don't recall. But, in general, any chlorinated hydrocarbon will invoke microsomal enzyme responses. Q. And what's a "microsomal enzyme response"? A. I'm not sure. I'm not a biologist, but. I know it invokes it. Q. Is that an effect on the steroids in the animal? A. Could be. Q. Let me show you an Exhibit. MR. KASHANI: Exhibit next in order. (Thereupon the Court Reporter marked the pertinent document as PLAINTIFF'S EXHIBIT NUMBER 348-A) A . I've looked over the Exhibit given me. Q Do you ha ve any recollection of Exhibit 348 ? A . No, sir. Q Any general recollection? A . I have some general recollect; ion of s ome JUDY COMP & ASSOCIATES WATER PCB-SD0000042334 295 1 of the opinions that I've been reminded 2 of that were stated in here, yes. 3 Q. Which opinions are those? 4 A. Well, as I said earlier, I believe I was 5 asked to review Risebrough's work, and my 6 opinion was that it was speculative and 7 not based on absolute confirmation. 8 That's not a criticism, incidentally. 9 Scientists are intentionally speculative. 10 I mean they are asked to do that kind of 11 routinely. The problem associated with 12 that speculation is when actions are 13 taken on it. But there were some concern 14 with some of the extrapolations and the 15 probability of them being true or not 16 true. And there was some feeling, I 17 think, that Risebrough had extrapolated 18 the information he had way beyond any 19 reasonable interpretation of it, and, you 20 know, it's kind of interesting, 21 twenty-five years later, we were right. 22 Q. What was unreasonable about Risebrough's 23 extrapolations? 24 A. Well, Risebrough took --------- 25 Q. I'd like to ask about your conclusions JUDY COMP & ASSOCIATES WATER PCB-SD0000042335 296 1 back at the time, meaning at the time you 2 3 A . Okay. 4 Q. --------- reviewed his work and not today. 5 A. Well --------- okay. 6 Q. I mean, obviously, today there is more 7 information --------- 8 A. Yes, and --------- 9 Q. --------- andback at the time --------- _ 10 A. --------- you know, it's comforting to 11 understand that the way we felt was based 12 on good logic. First of all, Risebrough 13 took information that was generated for 14 one purpose and revisited it and 15 interpreted it in light of other people's 16 findings in Sweden and categorically said 17 that there was a major pollution problem 18 with polychlorinated biphenyls on the 19 west coast of the United States. Whether 20 that was true or not, that was a pretty 21 large step based on the information that 22 he had, especially since the information 23 was based on analytical technique that 24 was known to be less than definitive when 25 dealing with weathered biological JUDY COMP & ASSOCIATES WATER PCB-SD0000042336 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 297 samples. It was a conclusion that you could draw, but it was not necessarily responsible. Q. You mentioned that Dr. Risebrough was using the gas chromatograph with an electron capture device? A . Correct. Q. Was that similar to the equipment you were using? A. Correct. Q. Were there any other opinions that you found unreasonable or any other opinion --------- I'm sorry. Let's go back. Any other opinions --------- A . Yes. Q. --------- that you recall triggered by this memo? A. Did you ask me if there were any other of Risebrough's opinions that were expressed in his papers that I found unreasonable Q. A. Q. A. Yes. At the time? - --------- at that time? What were those? Yes. '* ' That PCBs and chlorinated hydrocarbons. JUDY COMP & ASSOCIATES WATER PCB-SD0000042337 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 298 in general, were responsible for eggshell thinning in birds. Q. Why did you think that was unreasonable? A. I felt that that was unreasonable because there just wasn't enough information at that time to make that conclusion in a definitive fashion. Q. Was there enough information at that time to conclude that DDT was responsible f or eggshell thinning in birds? A . No, sir. Q. Did that information later develop? A. It had been speculated that that was true, but I don't think it's ever been shown that that was the cause of eggshell thinning. Q. So, it's your opinion that it has not been established that DDT can cause eggshell thinning in birds? A. I think it's been established that DDT or the commercial product DDT potentially can in laboratory animals. I don't think it's been shown definitively to do so at part per billion levels in the environment. JUDY COMP & ASSOCIATES WATER PCB-SD0000042338 299 1 Q. I refer you to a portion on page ---------- 2 A. Let me say one more thing too. The 3 microsomal enzyme situation, which I have 4 classed myself --------- classified myself as 5 not being an expert in, you can invoke 6 the same kind of responses they were 7 seeing with chlorinated hydrocarbons just 8 based on stress of the --------- of the animal 9 and things of that sort. So, you know,, 10 just from my viewpoint as a scientist at 11 that point in time, the information 12 wasn't overwhelming enough to --------- to take 13 major action. It called for generation 14 of more information. 15 Q. You believe that the information was 16 similarly lacking with respect to DDT at 17 that time? 18 A. DDT was considerably different than PCBs. 19 Q. Turning to page two of Exhibit 348, I 20 refer you to the last full paragraph. 21 Can I ask you to read that? 22 A. The last full paragraph? 23 Q . Yes. 24 A. Starting with Risebrough? 25 Q. "Risebrough has taken known Aroclor JUDY COMP & ASSOCIATES WATER PCB-SD0000042339 300 1 samples --------- '2 A . "Risebrough has taken known Aroclor 3 samples and claims to have evidence of 4 enzyme and hormone change. Here there is 5 not question of identification. Either 6 his position is attacked and discounted, 7 or we will eventually have to withdraw 8 product from end uses which have exposure 9 problems. Since Risebrough' s paper in .. 10 "Nature", December, 1968 has just been 11 published, it is timely, perhaps 12 imperative, that this paper and its 13 implications be discussed with certain 14 customers. This is a rough one because 15 it could mean loss of business on empty 16 and false claims by Risebrough." 17 Q. Do you recall discussions along those 18 lines at Monsanto at about the time of 19 this memo, 1968? 20 A . No, sir. 21 MR. ZIMMER: Lacks foundation. 22 Q. Do you recall if the implications of 23 Risebrough's paper were discussed with 24 any customers? 25 A . No, sir. JUDY COMP & ASSOCIATES WATER PCB-SD0000042340 301 1 "2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q. Do you recall if Monsanto lost any business because of Dr. Risebrough's claims? A . NO , sir. Q "NO , " you don't recall or "no," they d i d n ' t lose any business? A . Both Q Wait . I don't understand. You don't --------- A. Well , then only ask one question at a .. time Q Did Monsanto lo se any business because of D r . Risebrough' s claims? A . Not to my knowl edge. MR. ZIMMER: Let's take a break. (OFF RECORD) Q. I wonder if we could go back on the record and just finish up with Document 348. Let me refer you to page one of this document which is number T 091772. A . Excuse me? Q. I'm referring to the Bates number down at the bottom, A. T 091772, okay. (OFF RECORD) Q. I refer you to the second to the last JUDY COMP & ASSOCIATES WATER PCB-SD0000042341 1 '2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 302 A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. full paragraph which reads, "Monsanto is preparing to challenge certain aspects of this problem, but we are not prepared to defend against all of the accusations." Do you know which accusations Monsanto was not prepared to defend against? - MR. ZIMMER: Assumes facts not in evidence. Lacks foundation and calls for speculation. You can answer it. No. Do you know which aspects of the problem Monsanto was prepared to challenge? MR. ZIMMER: Same objection. Same answer. No. Going to the three numbers after ---------- in the first paragraph, it says, "Risebrough in a recent paper," and then it lists three items, one, two, and three ---------- they're numbered. Okay. Up at the top. Yes. Again, taking you back to the date o f this memo which is March, 19 6 9 , a t that point, to your knowledge. was M o n s a n t o challenging Risebrough's apparent claim that PCBs are a pollutant --------- I'm JUDY COMP & ASSOCIATES WATER PCB-SD0000042342 1 '2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 303 referring to number one ---------- are a pollutant or widely spread by air and water. Do you know if Monsanto was preparing to challenge that accusation? MR. ZIMMER: Calls for speculation. A . No. Q. Was Monsanto prepared to challenge the accusation that PCBs were an uncontrollable pollutant? Again, I'm . quoting from number one. MR. ZIMMER: Okay. Your question before was did he know. Now you're saying was Monsanto. He is not Monsanto. He can only tell you what he knew so ---------- I know it's a semantical --------- MR . KASHAN I : I know I me an , I ' m assuming when I ask 11 D O you know? it and you answer "No" that you are saying---------the answer m e a n s that you do not know. MR . ZIMMER : Okay. THE WITNESS: Tha t 11 s what I a s sume too. MR . KASHANI : Okay. JUDY COMP & ASSOCIATES WATER PCB-SD0000042343 304 1 MR. ZIMMER: I'm just making sure, 2 because the --------- 3 MR. KASHANI: I can rephrase the 4 second question. 5 Q. Do you know if Monsanto was prepared to 6 challenge the apparent accusation that 7 PCBs were an uncontrollable pollutant? 8 A. Was prepared to ---------- 9 Q. Challenge,yes. . 10 A . No. 11 Q. Was preparing to challenge. 12 A. What do you mean by "challenge," please? 13 Q. Refute it, dispute it through the 14 literature or through publications. 15 A. If "challenge" means that Monsanto would 16 initiate a more definitive analytical 17 program to get bona fide information to 18 either verify or deny speculations by 19 Risebrough, then I might say "yes" to 20 that. "Challenge" has a, you know, an 21 emotion associated with it that ---------- I 22 mean, you know, this isn't exactly a 23 boxing match or a fist fight. 24 Q. This memo is entitled Aroclor Wildlife 25 Accusations which has a certain JUDY COMP & ASSOCIATES WATER PCB-SD0000042344 305 1 connotation to it, and I guess I'm using '2 "challenge" in the same context, whether 3 4 A. Well --------- 5 Q. --------- Monsanto was prepared to simply 6 accept these accusations without response 7 or if Monsanto was preparing to respond 8 in some way. 9 MR. ZIMMER: Okay. That's a . 10 different question. 11 A. The memo discusses Risebrough, and the 12 word "accusation," which is also an 13 emotional word, is what Risebrough was 14 doing. He was accusing. Monsanto didn't 15 necessarily believe that he had the facts 16 to speculate the way he was. And so I 17 believe that they were preparing to 18 defend themselves against those 19 accusations, and any defense against 20 those kinds of accusations involved 21 obtaining definitive information that was 22 beyond a shadow of a doubt reflective o f 23 what the real situation was. S o , i f you 24 mean was Monsanto challenging him i n that 25 way, I would agree, although I still JUDY COMP & ASSOCIATES WATER PCB-SD0000042345 306 1 '2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 don't like the word "challenge" because I don't think this was an --------- needed to be or was an adversarial situation from Monsanto's viewpoint. Q. Well, using your definition, was Monsanto preparing to challenge the accusations that are listed in number one on page one of Exhibit 348? A. What I said was that Monsanto was preparing to investigate properly. Q. I'm using your definition of "challenge" A . No . Q. --------- the one you used in your previous A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. No, I was using your definition of challenge, and, yes --------"Yes" to what? Yes, Monsanto was preparing to obtain definitive information to establish the validity of Risebrough's speculations. Do you know if Monsanto ever obtained that information? No . What about the second item referring to JUDY COMP & ASSOCIATES WATER PCB-SD0000042346 307 1 PCBs as a toxic substance with no '2 permissible allowable levels? Do you 3 know if Monsanto was preparing to 4 challenge that accusation? 5 A. Well, it goes on further than just that 6 portion --------- 7 Q. Well, yes. I'm referring to the whole 8 thing. 9 A. Okay. Yes. .. 10 Q. Was Monsanto preparing to challenge that 11 accusation? 12 A . Yes. 13 Q. And were investigations performed to 14 challenge that accusation? 15 A . Yes. 16 Q. Do you kno w who was involved in those 17 investigat ions? 18 A. I believe you would have to talk with 19 Industrial Bio-Test. 20 Q. So Industr ial Bio-Test did the work to 21 challenge these accusations? 22 A. I think so . I don't know. 23 Q. Do you kno w who at Monsanto was involved? ' -5 * 24 A. Not specif ically. It probably would be 25 in Wheeler 's bailiwick. JUDY COMP & ASSOCIATES WATER PCB-SD0000042347 308 1 Q. Was Dr. Kelly involved? '2 A. Emmett Kelly was Wheeler's boss. 3 Q. Was Mr. Garrett involved? Jack Garrett? 4 A. I don't know. I doubt it. 5 Q. Do you know if any laboratory other than, 6 or any group other than Industrial 7 Bio-Test was involved in doing the 8 investigation to determine the validity 9 of the accusations set forth in number .. 10 two of Exhibit 348? 11 A . No . 12 Q. And, finally, was Monsanto prepared to 13 challenge the accusations set forth in 14 number three, which reads that apparently 15 PCBs are "a toxic substance endangering 16 man himself, implying that the peregrine 17 falcon is the leading indicator of things 18 to come"? 19 A. Was that-question "preparing" or 20 "prepared"? 21 Q. Let's say "preparing." 22 A . Ye s . 23 Q. Do you know if Monsanto did do 24 investigations to determine the validity 25 of this claim? JUDY COMP & ASSOCIATES WATER PCB-SD0000042348 309 1 A . No . '2 Q. Okay. Who asked you to review Dr. 3 Risebrough's work? 4 A. I don't recall. 5 Q. Might it have been Dr. Keller? 6 A. Could have. 7 Q. All right. Thank you. 8 MR. KASHANI: Let's take a break. 9 (OFFRECORD) . 10 Q. Dr. Tucker, I'm going to refer you back 11 to Exhibit 321 that was introduced 12 earlier and ask you if you have any 13 general recollection of this document? 14 A. That's different to what you usually ask. 15 You changed to general recognition ---------- 16 whether I have --------- or do I recognize the 17 document? You said "general recognition" 18 this time? 19 Q . Yes. 20 MR. ZIMMER: Recollection. 21 A. General - 22 Q. Recollection. ' 23 A. ---------- recollection. Yes, I do. This is an 24 earlier Exhibit. 25 Q. Other than when you saw it yesterday, do JUDY COMP & ASSOCIATES WATER PCB-SD0000042349 310 1 you have any other recollection? 2 A. Not specifically. 3 Q. Any general recollection? 4 MR. ZIMMER: I'm also puzzled by 5 --------- I mean, of seeing it before? Or 6 what's the --------- or issues discussed 7 . in it? I mean, that's the dilemma, 8 I think, that both the Doctor and I 9 are having. 10 MR. KASHANI: I've asked the same 11 question with respect to other 12 documents, and Dr. Tucker answered 13 "yes" or "no," and I'm asking the 14 s ame question . 15 MR. ZIMMER: Well, and he's 16 expressed some confusion about it, 17 so I think if there's a way you 18 could flesh that out for us --------- 19 Q. Well, can you answer, Dr. Tucker? 20 A. Well you've expressed confusion. I mean, 21 I've asked this same question before. 22 MR. ZIMMER: You just did the same 23 thing. We can have it read back if 24 you need to. If you can answer, go 25 ahead, Doctor. I'm not trying to be JUDY COMP & ASSOCIATES WATER PCB-SD0000042350 311 1 obstructive. I'm just trying to 2 figure out --------- 3 A. I don't recall specifically this memo. 4 The topic in it is obviously something 5 that Monsanto was paying me to deal with 6 there. We all know that, so in general, 7 it's familiar. 8 Q. Let me refer you to the paragraph that's 9 numbered Five on the first page. That's 10 at TRAN 057161. Number Five reads, "The 11 advisability of determining" or it says, 12 it reads "determing" --------- I assume it 13 means determining, although, of course, 14 we're not sure ----------- "the character and 15 possibility of isolating the "major 16 fraction" in each of the Aroclors to be 17 studied is to be explored." Does the 18 term "major fraction" in the context of 19 Aroclors mean anything to you? 20 MR. ZIMMER: Calls forspeculation 21 and lacks foundation. 22 A . "Major f 23 me , yes. 24 Q . What doe 25 A . Major pa JUDY COMP & ASSOCIATES WATER PCB-SD0000042351 312 1 Q. Does that refer to the dominant isomer in '2 the context of what we were discussing 3 yesterday? 4 A . Yes. It would appear to do s o . That's 5 how I would interpret i t . 6 Q Just to take an exampl e, in the case of 7 Aroclor 1242, the domi n a n t isomer would 8 be the biphenyl which has three chlorines 9 on it? 10 A . Correct . . - 11 Q And that would be the major fraction of 12 Aroclor 1242? 13 A. It might be part of the major fraction. 14 Q. What would be the rest of the major 15 fraction? 16 A. Depends on what you defined as the 17 fraction, whether it was half of it, 18 whether it was a third of it, whether it 19 was a fourth of it, whether it was an 20 eighth of it? Depends on your definition 21 of the fraction. 22 Q. But major fraction does ---------- 23 A. 51 percent is a major fraction. If 24 there's four components in something, and 25 one of the components is twice as much as JUDY COMP & ASSOCIATES WATER PCB-SD0000042352 313 1 in the others, then one-fourth of the '2 components is the major fraction. It 3 depends on the definition of the fraction 4 is what I'm attempting to relay to you. 5 Q. So, does major fraction embody the 6 concept that the compound in this case 7 --------- not a compound --------- the substance in 8 this case, Aroclor consists of more than 9 one different substance? . 10 A. I think while it doesn't consist of more 11 than one substance, it consists of 12 multiple isomers and/or homologs, but 13 they're basically the same substance, 14 polychlorinated biphenyls. 15 Q. That's a new term. What do you mean by 16 " h o m o 1 o g '' ? 17 A. What I mean by "homolog" is, for example, 18 all of the isomers that have five 19 chlorines associated with them --------- all of 20 the isomers that have four chlorines 21 associated with them. Those to me are 22 homologs. 23 Q. So, "homolog" is a sub-set of isomers --------- 24 in the context of Aroclors? 25 A. Homolog is a group of isomers that have JUDY COMP & ASSOCIATES WATER PCB-SD0000042353 314 1 the same chlorine number. That's what I '2 mean by it. 3 Q. Back to the question onmajor fraction. 4 I understand that we have to define, you 5 know, a percentage, but does major 6 fraction embody the concept that there 7 are different components to an Aroclor 8 and we can take a sub-set of those and 9 call it the major fraction? . 10 A. I think yeah, that would be true. I 11 think "fraction" itself denotes ----------- when 12 its talking about anything --------- that it's 13 a sub-set thereof. 14 Q. Do you know ---------- 15 A . Yes. . 16 Q. Okay. Do you know if, at the time of 17 this memo, --------- this is December, 1968 ---------- 18 Monsanto had the ability to isolate the 19 different homologs in Aroclors? 20 A. I know they did not. I know no one had 21 the ability to isolate the different 22 homologs. 23 Q. Atthe time of this memo in December, 24 1968, --------- I'll withdraw that. 25 A. If I canshed some light on that, I'd be JUDY COMP & ASSOCIATES WATER PCB-SD0000042354 315 1 happy to. Or I can stick to your '2 questions. It's your choice. 3 MR. ZIMMER: Why don't we stick to 4 his questions. 5 THE WITNESS: Okay. 6 Q. I refer you to another document. 7 - MR. KASHANI: This can be marked 8 Exhibit Three Forty-nine. 9 (Thereupon the Court Reporter 10 marked the pertinent document as 11 PLAINTIFF'S EXHIBIT 349-A) 12 Q. Do you recognize this document? 13 A . No, sir. 14 Q. I refer you to page four, the paragraph 15 numbered four, section "C". This refers 16 to --------- I'll read the quote. It says, 17 "Top-cut --------- top, hyphen, cut --------- 18 retained batches of A-5460," and then the 19 next sub-paragraph, sub-paragraph "D" 20 refers to, quote, "Carry out a plant 21 trial of 'top-cutting'." Does the term 22 "top-cut" mean anything to you? 23 A. No, sir. 24 Q. Does that have any application to PCBs? 25 A. Aroclor 5460 is not a PCB. JUDY COMP & ASSOCIATES WATER PCB-SD0000042355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 316 Q . I know. A . Okay. Q. I understand that. A . So I don' t--------- Q I'm asking you if --------A . Does this -- Q Not this. but--------A . --------- state that there's any applicat ion to ---------I don please. ' t understand the question r * Q Does the term "top-cutting" have any applicati on to PCBs? A . Top-cutti ng could have application t o anything. Q What does "top-cutting" mean? A . Taking -- - I would --------- I can only - - - I can only speculate. MR . ZIMMER: Do you mean to him or in this memo ? MR . KASHANI: Well , I mean he' s already testified he's not fam i 1 i a r with the memo.' I mean--------- MR. ZIMMER: Well, the term actually --------- Q. Well, you said top-cutting could mean JUDY COMP & ASSOCIATES WATER PCB-SD0000042356 317 1 different things, and --------- '2 A . I know what the "top cut" means to me in 3 English. 4 Q. Does it mean anything to you in the 5 context of PCBs? 6 A. I could speculate on what it means. 7 Q. Okay and what is that? 8 MR. ZIMMER: He doesn't want you to 9 do t h at . .. 10 THE WITNESS: Okay. 11 Q. No, you can go ahead. 12 A. It would seem to me to take the top part. 13 I mean --------- I mean, you know, you don't 14 have to be too intuitive to understand 15 that kind of part, but I don't know how 16 it would be applied. 17 Q. Do you mean taking the higher chlorinated 18 isomers out? 19 A. I don't know. I don't know what the top 20 o f an Aroclor i s . That ' s why it doesn' 21 make sense to me . 22 D r . Tucker, do you recall hearing about 23 a n incident in Japan where some cooking ' -5' * 24 oil was contaminated with PCBs? ' 25 Yes JUDY COMP & ASSOCIATES WATER PCB-SD0000042357 318 1 Q. Referred to as the Yoshu incident? '2 A . Yes. 3 Q. How did you hear about that? 4 A. Through higher up folks in the company in 5 Monsanto. 6 Q. Was that Dr. Keller? 7 A. No. It was probably through ------------- it could 8 have been through Keller, but most likely 9 through Wheeler. . 10 Q. And what were you told? 11 A. Just what you said yourself, that some 12 rice oil had been contaminated ---------- I 13 don't have the details of how it was ----------- 14 with a Aroclor similar product, a 15 polychlorinated biphenyl product, and I 16 believe they were called Kaneclors. 17 Q. And were you told anything else? 18 A . No, sir. 19 Q. Were you told that any people were 20 injured? 21 A . No, sir. 22 Q. Did you express any response to this 23 info rmation? 24 A. Yeah. My response was "Why, so what?" 25 In other words, the people who imparted JUDY COMP & ASSOCIATES WATER PCB-SD0000042358 319 1 the information to me obviously wanted me '2 to do something, and I asked them what 3 they wanted me to do. 4 Q And what did they say? 5 A . I think the indications were that they 6 wanted us to take some of the 7 methodologies that we had and look at the 8 Kanec1or-type products and things of that 9 sort, and see what those Kaneclor PCB . 10 products looked like relative to the 11 Monsanto products. 12 Q And did you do that? 13 A . I recall either my group and/or Emery's 14 group doing some comparative work. 15 Q . And what were the results? 16 A . The results that they were different, but 17 the s ame. 18 Q You mean the Kaneclor was different, but 19 the same than Aroclor? 20 A . They were polychlorinated biphenyls, but 21 they were --------- definitely gave different 22 isomer distribution traces. 23 Q They give different isomer traces. Does 24 that mean that they seem to indicate a 25 different mix of isomers than the JUDY COMP & ASSOCIATES WATER PCB-SD0000042359 320 1 Aroclors that Monsanto manufactured? 2 A. There was a different mixture of isomers 3 between the two products, the Kaneclor 4 and the Aroclors. 5 Q. Could you detect any isomers ---------- which 6 isomers ? 7 A. Could I detect --------- 8 Q. Could you detect which isomers were in 9 the product that you examined from Japan? 10 A. The gas chromatography equipment that we 11 had available to us in the --------- even 12 nowadays --------- is not capable of doing 13 complete isomeric separations. And so, 14 what you end up with is a whole bunch of 15 peaks, some of which can have lower ---------- a 16 peak, for example, may have lower boiling 17 tetrachloral bipheny1-type isomers and 18 higher boiling trichloral biphenyl 19 isomers. So there's some overlap. But 20 the fingerprint that you get is 21 representative of the Aroclor or the 22 Kaneclor that you're dealing with. And 23 the higher the chlorination, the higher 24 the boiling point, so the whole 25 fingerprint moves one way or the other. JUDY COMP & ASSOCIATES WATER PCB-SD0000042360 321 1 depending upon what degree of '2 chlorination there is. You see a number 3 of peaks and, depending upon whether you 4 are using capillary columns or packed 5 columns or whatever, you see more or less 6 peaks. And it's --------- it can be, you know, 7 isomer distribution, homolog 8 distribution, component distribution, or 9 whatever distribution, but it's a ... 10 reproducible distribution of how the 11 column separates the constituents in that 12 product, and you end up with what's 13 called a fingerprint. And what I'm 14 saying is that we compared the 15 fingerprints of the Kaneclor products and 16 the Aroclor products, and there were 17 differences. 18 Q. Could you tell the homolog distribution 19 in the two products? 20 A. No. Not with --------- no. 21 Q, Could you tell that there were different 22 homologs? ~ 23 A. All we could tell was that there were 24 different boiling points, since the 25 separation that you obtain in a gas JUDY COMP & ASSOCIATES WATER PCB-SD0000042361 322 1 chromatograph is primarily boiling point '2 an d / o r at traction, which can---------you 3 know, i f --------- I don't know how to say this 4 ---------I guess I'll just say it. In a 5 biphenyl molecule you've got ten 6 posit ions in which you can put chlorine. 7 Okay? For example, in a mo nochloral r 8 there are three isomers, ortho, meta , and 9 para. Each one of those will have a *- 10 different boiling point. And they have a 11 different attraction for the liquid phase 12 that's present in gas chromatographic 13 columns that are used to separate those 14 two. So, depending on what the boiling 15 point of these are will determine how 16 they allude and also, the liquid phase 17 that's used in the column will determine 18 the order in which they are alluded. 19 When you start adding in 210 isomers in 20 different quantities, they can coallude. 21 A five could allude with a seven. A five 22 could allude with a' three, so there's---------- 23 it's kind of like an overlap all the way 24 across. So, we don't know for sure that 25 any particular peak that would come out JUDY COMP & ASSOCIATES WATER PCB-SD0000042362 323 1 that was --------- that was --------- whether it was 2 totally a pentachloral homolog or whether 3 it was totally a pentachloral isomers or 4 which of them were. We just know that 5 it's a peak that appears at a certain 6 point, and that it's reproducible if you 7 don't change your conditions around too 8 mu c h . 9 Q. What did you mean when you just said five 10 ' and seven and three. 11 A. Number of chlorines per biphenyl 12 molecule . 13 Q. So, by "five," you werereferring to a 14 biphenyl with five chlorines on it? 15 A. Correct. 16 Q. And "seven"referring to a biphenyl with 17 seven chlorines on it? 18 A. Correct. 19 Q. Could you tell whether the samples of the 20 polychlorinated biphenyl product that you 21 analyzed from Japan contained biphenyls 22 with five chlorines- on them or six 23 chlorines on them', or seven chlorines on 24 them? 25 A. By electron capture or by GC electron JUDY COMP & ASSOCIATES WATER PCB-SD0000042363 324 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 capture? Q. By any method available to you at that time. A. What was the date of the Yoshu incident? Q. Well, we have a document that refers to it that is --------- let's see --------- we have one document that refers to it that appears to be dated 1968. I have others. MR. KASHANI: Let's enter this as the next Exhibit and let me see if I have other documents. (Thereupon the Court Reporter marked the pertinent document as PLAINTIFF'S EXHIBIT NUMBER 350-A) Q. This Exhibit has been marked Exhibit350. Do you recognize that Exhibit? A . No, sir. Q. Does that refresh your recollection as to the date of the --------- I use the term Yusho (pronouncing you shaw). Does that refer to the Japanese incident? A. I think that's ----------- is that the correct pronunciation or --------- Q. I don't know if the -------- A. That's --------- I'm referring to the Japanese JUDY COMP & ASSOCIATES WATER PCB-SD0000042364 325 1 incident, and I call it Yoshu '2 (pronouncing yo shoo). 3 Q. Yoshu. Does this document. Document 250 4 (sic) refresh any recollection about the 5 timing of that incident? 6 A. It doesn't pinpoint when the incident 7 occurred. It does --------- it was apparently 8 produced, by the date in the upper 9 right-hand corner, in December of 1968 . 10 and it talks about it, so I assume that 11 it had to occur sometime prior to that, 12 but that's as close as it fixes it for 13 me . 14 Q. In any case, I'm referring --------- in terms 15 of your ability to detect the different 16 homologs of polychlorinated biphenyls, 17 I'm referring to the analysis that you 18 took at about the time of the Yusho 19 incident so we can establish through 20 other means when that occurred. And then 21 my question remains as whether at that 22 time -- at the ti me that you were asked 23 to test the Kaneclor --------- is that 24 K-a-n-e-c-l-o-r? 25 A. Either K-a-n-a or K-a-n-e --------- JUDY COMP & ASSOCIATES WATER PCB-SD0000042365 326 1 "2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q. A. Q. A. Q "Kaneclor" meaning the PCB product from Japan, whether at that time you were able to detect the presence of PCB molecules with five or six or seven chlorines on them? Yeah. I think, basically, that you could, especially on the neat product when you were dealing with materials that werelOOpercentPCBs. . So, if you were ---------- And, again, I will say very frankly that it would --------- you could --------- it would be very difficult to pinpoint every peak that came off as being completely this or completely that because again, there is serious mixture i n terms of that kind of thing, but---------and also, you 'd have to be dealing with the neat product. I understand. I f you were able, for e x a mp1e , to draw a pure--------- pure as it comes - -- s a mp1e o f A r o c 1 o r 12 4 2 right off the production line at Monsanto and analyze that --------- and again, I'm talking about roughly the time of the Yusho incident --------- Yoshu (pronouncing yo shoo)? JUDY COMP & ASSOCIATES WATER PCB-SD0000042366 327 1 Yusho (pronouncing you show)? Yoshu 2 (pronouncing yo shoo) --------- 3 A. Yes, sir. 4 MR. ZIMMER: We understand. 5 Q. --------- incident, could you at that time 6 determine whether it contained PCBs with 7 five, six or seven, however many 8 chlorines? That would be a neat sample, 9 asyousay. 10 A. Yeah. We could imply it by comparison 11 with Aroclors and with --------- by comparison 12 with Aroclors using them as standards, we 13 could imply what was there. 14 Q. So the answer is "yes"? 15 A . Yes. 16 Q. Do you recall when Monsanto, or when you 17 in your lab, or, to your knowledge, other 18 labs at Monsanto first became able to 19 detect the presence of higher chlorinated 20 PCBs in the Aroclor products? 21 A . No . 22 Q. Was it sometime be fo re the Yusho 23 incident? 24 A.Certainly. 25 Q. Do you remember approximately how long JUDY COMP & ASSOCIATES WATER PCB-SD0000042367 328 1 before? 2 A . No , s i r . 3 Q . D o you recall i f your group was the first 4 t o b e able to run that analysis, in other 5 w o r d s , the f i r s t group to be able to pin 6 -- not pinpoint, but detect the presence 7 o f -- or let u s say - -- well, I will 8 just withdraw that. That's fine. For 9 this work that was done, this work in _ 10 determining the PCBs or determining the 11 presence or detecting the presence of 12 PCBs with five, six and seven chlorines 13 on them, did you need the --------- did you use 14 the gas chromatography electron capture 15 equipment or the gas chromatograph mass 16 spec equipment? 17 A. My group used primarily gas 18 chromatography electron capture 19 equipment, and that equipment was not 20 used to identify isomericcomposition of 21 neat, pure Aroclors. In fact, if you 22 opened up a bottle of Aroclor near one of 23 those detectors, you would probably shut 24 it down for a week. 25 Q. So, what equipment did you use. JUDY COMP & ASSOCIATES WATER PCB-SD0000042368 329 1 A. I didn't use any equipment to do it. 2 Q. Did your group what equipment did 3 your group use? 4 A. My group did not do that. 5 Q. Oh, I see. Do you know whose group did 6 that work? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. Which group was that? 9 A. Martin Dietrich's group. ^ 10 Q. Okay. 11 A. Or Ed Emery's. It would depend when and 12 that kind of routine. 13 Q. Okay. Thank you. 14 MR. KASHANI: Let's move to the 15 next exhibit. Plaintiff's Exhibit 16 3 5 1. 17 (Thereupon the Court Reporter 18 marked the pertinent document as 19 351 -- A) . 20 Q. Doyou recall this document? 21 A. Not specifically. 22 Q. Do you have any generalrecollection ---------------- 23 A . Yes. 24 Q. ---------- of the topics discussed in this 25 document ? JUDY COMP & ASSOCIATES WATER PCB-SD0000042369 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 330 A . Yes. Q. Do you remember writing this document? A. Not specifically. Q. Did you draw the map on the second page? A. I know I didn't do that. I'm not that artistically inclined, I guarantee you. No . Q. Who is Mr. H. Vodden? V-o-d-d-e-n? A. If I remember correctly, Vodden is one of the people associated with the Monsanto U.K. operation in Newport. Q. That's Newport in England? A. Uh-huh (affirmative). United Kingdom. Q. This memo appears to referto testing some mud samples from an estuary in the Uskmouth --------- U-s-k-m-o-u-t-h --------- area in United Kingdom. Do you remember receiving those samples and running those tests? A. No, sir, I don't. Q. This memo refers to ppb of Aroclor. Does ppb mean parts per billion? A. Yes, it does. ' -5' * Q. And it says, in the third column it has parts per billion Aroclor 1242 Found. JUDY COMP & ASSOCIATES WATER PCB-SD0000042370 331 1 Was your lab able to test for the 2 presence of Aroclor 1242 under parts per 3 billion at the time of this memo, that's 4 October, 1969? 5 A. It would appear that that's true, yes. 6 Let me caution you on something here. 7 Many times materials that showed electron 8 capture activity when run through these 9 procedures were calculated as certain _ 10 Aroclors because the Aroclors were the 11 only things that were available as 12 standards. 13 Q . Okay. 14 A . The only time we could be fairly s u r e 15 from an electron capture chromatog ram 16 that we were dealing with a bona f i d e 17 Aroclor ---------- in other words, a Monsanto 18 PCB product --------- was if the complete 19 chromatogram matched in every way, shape, 20 and form with that of a standard 21 material. And in ----------- usually that was 22 always backed up by the fact that we 23 probably knew that the material was being 24 used and/or manufactured in the area that 25 the samples were obtained from. So, with JUDY COMP & ASSOCIATES WATER PCB-SD0000042371 332 1 those kinds of information available to 2 us, we could decide whether we might be 3 dealing with an Aroclor 1242 or 1254, or 4 1 2 6 0. 5 Q. In the case of this memo, was it the 6 determination made that you were dealing 7 with Aroclor 1242? 8 MR. ZIMMER: Lacks foundation. 9 A. The memo indicates and states that the 10 electron capture fingerprints were 11 identical with that of our Aroclor 1242 12 standard. In that particular instance, 13 and the fact that I would assume that, as 14 I said earlier, they may have been using 15 the material around that area, that it 16 might --------- it was --------- it had a high 17 probability of being Aroclor 1242 or that 18 being the source of what was being found. 19 MR. ZIMMER: Doctor, don't assume, 20 if you would, please. 21 THE WITNESS: Okay. Sorry. 22 MR. ZIMMER: He wants to know what 23 your recollection is. He can read 24 the memo --------- 25 A. Okay, I --------- I don't recollect this, as I JUDY COMP & ASSOCIATES WATER PCB-SD0000042372 333 1 stated earlier, specifically. 2 Q. Do you know what the first column, the 3 first "PS Out Number N 6 9/"---------do you 4 know what that means? 5 A. It's a sample designator of one sort or 6 the other, but I specifically don't 7 remember it or know what it means. 8 Q. Does that refer to method of logging or 9 record keeping of samples at Monsanto's 10 lab? 11 A. No . 12 Q. I refer you to the next document. 13 A. (Witness peruses document). 14 (Thereupon the Court Reporter 15 marked the pertinent document as 16 , PLAINTIFF'S EXHIBIT NUMBER 352-A). 17 A. Okay. 18 Q. Do you recognize thisdocument? 19 A. No, sir. 20 Is this document in the format of other 21 memos that you wrote about the time of 22 this document, a b o ut 1 9 6 9 , a t Mon santo? 23 A . Yes, sir. 24 Q. Is this the format we were discussing 25 yesterday, where you would dictate or JUDY COMP & ASSOCIATES WATER PCB-SD0000042373 334 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. handwrite out a memo and the secretary would write and it would come back and make corrections and then it would go back? I believe so. Do you recall any of the topics that are mentioned in this memo? Yes, sir. Which topics do you remember? I recall Wisconsin Alumni Research Foundation Institute. And I recall making a trip to review an audit at the Institute. I don't recall exactly when I did it or, you know, making that --------- but I do recall making that trip. And I also recall a gentleman named Francis Coon. Is that the name listed here, F. Coon in the first sentence? Yes, sir. And Birdsall I remember too, because those were the two people I talked to when I visited. What was the purpose of your visit? Wisconsin Alumni Research Foundation Institute had put together the wherewithal to begin sampling a sampling JUDY COMP & ASSOCIATES WATER PCB-SD0000042374 335 1 of Lake Michigan to determine what kind 2 of constituents were --------- could be found 3 in samples of water, flora, fauna, 4 sediments, and things of that sort. And, 5 to the best of my recollection, I think 6 they were looking for industrial sponsors 7 to help pay for this scientific endeavor 8 --------- investigation. And in return for 9 participating and helping to---------to cove r 10 the costs of doing this kind of --------- this 11 thing, the information would be shared 12 o p e-n ly and freely with all of the 13 sponsors as well as being published. 14 Wisconsin Research Alumni Foundation was 15 a university-type thing, so that's what 16 it was about. 17 Q. Was the Wisconsin Alumni Research 18 Foundation interested in looking for the 19 presence of PCBs in the Michigan --------- Lake 20 Michigan water? 21 A. Not specifically. 22 Q. Werethey interested inlooking forPCBs 23 among other substances? 24 A. Ye s . " 25 Q. Did they have theequipmentnecessary to JUDY COMP & ASSOCIATES WATER PCB-SD0000042375 336 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. detect the presence of PCBs? Yes. And what equipment was that? They had electron capture gas chromatographs which were fairly common and used for pesticides. It was not fairly common that they were being used for PCB analysis or had been validated, verified, or confirmed for that. If I remember correctly, WARF had been working on validating the EC/GCs for use to measure chlorinated hydrocarbons as well as PCBs and to include PCBs. All right. "EC/GC" meaning electron capture gas chromatograph? Right. Or GC/EC. I use them both ways. Sorry. I'll try to stick to one or the other . Referring to the last paragraph on page two. That sentence reads, "In view of this, our current Penascola (sic) --------- P-e-n-s-a-c-o-1-a --------- problem and other published information, I would suggest that we step up our efforts at finding immediate replacement formulations for JUDY COMP & ASSOCIATES WATER PCB-SD0000042376 1 '2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 337 Pydraul AC and Pydraul 625." Is this one of the topics that you recall from this memo ? A . No, sir. Q. Does the term Penascola problem mean anything to you? A. The term "Pensacola" ------------ Q. Pensacola, I'm sorry. A. ---------means something to me. It's a cit y. in Florida and we have a plant there, and the Pensacola problem, as it's put here, I seem to recollect --------- I don't remember clearly enough to --------- to recollect. Q. Does the term "Escambia Bay" trigger any recollection? A. Yes, that does. That means ----------- Q. Is that by Pensacola? A . Yes. Q. Was this Pensacola problem, is that when there was a discharge of Aroclors or PCBs from a Monsanto plant which poisoned some sea life? Is that what happened? MR; ZIMMER: It assumes facts not in evidence. A . No . JUDY COMP & ASSOCIATES WATER PCB-SD0000042377 338 1 '2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q. What happened? A. Well, you've thrown some things in there like poisoned sea life and things of that sort that I think are speculative and conjecture and inflammatory and untrue. Q. Then what did? A. As I recall, to the best of my ability, it seems to me that there was a unit --------- I know we didn't ever manufacture PCBs .in Pensacola, and I think there was a unit that may have been using a PCB-containing fluid that had leaked and that had --------- the material had, apparently leaked into something that went into Escambia Bay. And I recall --------- and I'll tell you what I recall right now, especially since you mentioned Escambia Bay --------- I'm not even sure I'm pronouncing that correctly --------- is that we were concerned that the material had gotten into the bay and that it perhaps might have, you know, contaminated some of the bottom feeding organisms in that bay. And I remember receiving shrimp where somebody had hired a shrimp boat to go collect shrimp by the JUDY COMP & ASSOCIATES WATER PCB-SD0000042378 339 1 '2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. plant. And the reason I remember it is because the shrimper that was asked to do that was very indignant and very embarrassed to do so, because nobody shrimped there because there weren't any shrimp there, and it wasn't a place where shrimp were, and he felt his peers would laugh at him. Didhefindanyshrimp? .. We --------- I think we found about a half a pound of shrimp after an extensive dredging of the area and things of that sort, and they were shipped to us, and I believe we analyzed them. Do you recall the results of that analysis? No, sir, I do not. Was the unit that leaked an air compressor unit? MR. ZIMMER: It assumes facts not in evidence. I don't recall. ' Is Pydraul AC used in air compressors? I don't recall specifically. What about Pydraul 625? JUDY COMP & ASSOCIATES WATER PCB-SD0000042379 1 '2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 340 A . I don't recall. Q. Are Pydraul AC and Pydraul 625 PCB-containing compounds ---------- PCB-conta i ning substances? I'm sorry A. I believe that they're PCB-containing fluids. I don't know how much or which or any of that kind of thing. Q. I refer you to the second sentence of that paragraph that reads, "I also feel., that Aroclor 1242 should not be used in replacement formulations." Do you recall writing that? A. No, sir, I do not. Q. Do you recall communicating that to anyone? A. No, sir, I don't. Q. What about the second half of the first sentence, going back a step, where it says, "I would suggest that we step up our efforts at finding immediate replacement formulations for Pydraul AC and Pydraul 625." Do you remember discussing or communicating that with anyone? A . No, sir. JUDY COMP & ASSOCIATES WATER PCB-SD0000042380 341 1 Q. Going to the third sentence, it reads, 2 "If this were done, I firmly believe that 3 in a short period of time analysts would 4 soon be reporting Aroclor 1242 as a 5 significant water pollutant thus 6 seriously endangering a market which so 7 far has not been questioned." Do you 8 remember communicating that or discussing 9 that with anyone? 10 A. No, sir, I don't. 11 Q. Does this memo trigger any recollection 12 of discussing any of these topics? 13 A. Are you referencing the last paragraph of 14 the Exhibit? It does not trigger any 15 specific recollection of discussing these 16 topics with anybody. 17 Q. Any general recollection? 18 A. Not --------- well, these kinds of things were 19 discussed, but I don't recollect 20 discussing these things specifically. I 21 don't recollect discussing Pydraul AC, 22 625. I do not recallect this. 23 Q. What kind of things? Do you mean things 24 like replacement formulations for 25 PCB-containing products? JUDY COMP & ASSOCIATES WATER PCB-SD0000042381 342 1 A . Yes. 2 Q . What do you remember about your 3 d i s c u s s i o n s on that topic? 4 A . In a lot o f applications where the safety 5 And s o m e o f the other items that were 6 i n h e r e n t t o PCB weren't needed, but that 7 PCB s were u s ed because they had good 8 physical properties and things of that 9 sort, because of the outside chance that 10 there may have been some problems, the 11 other types of materials were being 12 looked at to substitute for those 13 formulations, especially when we were 14 dealing with formulations that were 15 uncontrolled in any way, shape or form, 16 and I believe we touched on one earlier, 17 the NCR situation. 18 Q. By "substitute," do you mean substitutin 19 a non-PCB-containing product for a 20 PCB-containing product? 21 A. That's correct. 22 Q. Do you remember ha ving those discussions 23 about the time or about the date that's 24 listed on this memo on September, 1969? 25 A . No, sir. JUDY COMP & ASSOCIATES WATER PCB-SD0000042382 343 1 Q I want to turn back to Exhibit Three '2 Fifty-one just very briefly. The firs 3 column on the first page had t ha t 4 reference of PS Out N u mb e r N 6 9 / . You 5 mentioned that that1's not a log number 6 ---------that's not a number that you would 7 have kept at the Monsanto labs? 8 I believe I stated that it's not a --------- 9 not a number that I recognized as a . 10 Monsanto number, or that I recognized. 11 Q Did Monsanto use a numbering system for 12 its samples that was different from this? 13 Not specifically. This --------- to clarify 14 this --------- this may have been the numbers 15 that were put on the labels by the people 16 who sent the samples. I mean, it's just 17 merely identification that means 18 something to somebody. And that 19 hopefully is unique to the sample. But I 20 do not recognize this, as I said earlier, 21 as a Monsanto number. I mean, like MCS I 22 would recognize as Monsanto Corporation 23 Sample. Or OS is Outside Sample, or 24 things like this. PS Out Number ---------- No. 25 I assume number --------- N69 slash means JUDY COMP & ASSOCIATES WATER PCB-SD0000042383 1 '2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 344 Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. nothing to me. Did you --------- It doesn't trigger anything Monsantoish t o me . Did your group in your lab have a system for keeping track of samples? Yes. Could you describe that system? To the best of my recollection, the .. system was instituted when a large number of samples began to come in from customers and from all kinds of different locations. And the samples when received were logged into a log book by the technician who received them. Who was that technician? It could have been any number of the people that I've mentioned previously, Jerry Litschgi, Bill Meaz. There was another gentleman by the name Ben Litchtenburg, or something like that. I can't remember. His name was "Nick" --------- was his nickname he went by. And these were people who worked in your group? JUDY COMP & ASSOCIATES WATER PCB-SD0000042384 345 1 A . Yes. 2 Q. Do you know what happened to that log 3 book? 4 A. No, sir. 5 Q. Was it kept atthe lab in St. Louis? 6 A. Yes, sir. 7 Q. Do you remember what it looked like? 8 A. No, sir. 9 Q. Dr. Tucker, have you everheard of the 10 Texas Eastern Transmission Company or 11 Texas Eastern Corporation? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. How did you hear of them? 14 A. Not too long ago I read about them in C 15 and E News. 16 Q. Did you ever hear about Texas Eastern 17 while you were working at Monsanto? 18 A. Not to my recollection. 19 Q. Did you have any contact with any 20 individual from Texas Eastern? 21 A. Not to my recollection. 22 Q. Do you remember discussing Texas Eastern? 23 A. No, sir. 24 Q. What about Transwestern Pipeline 25 C o mpany? JUDY COMP & ASSOCIATES WATER PCB-SD0000042385 346 1 A . No, sir. ' 2 Q. Have you ever heard the term 3 "Transwestern" outside the context of 4 this lawsuit? 5 A . No , sir. 6 Q Are you familiar with a product called 7 MCS 15 3 or Turbinol 153? 8 A . No , sir. 9 Q Are you familiar with a product called 10 81 or OS 91? 11 A . No. 12 Q. Were you aware while you worked at 13 Monsanto that Monsanto was selling 14 PCB-containing lubricants for gas 15 turbines and natural gas compressors? 16 A. Not specifically. 17 Q. Did you have any general knowledge of 18 that? 19 A. No. I wouldn't say I did. I had no need 20 to know, no reason to know, no reason to 21 care in my function with Monsanto. 22 Q. Were you ever called upon to test samples 23 from Texas Eastern's equipment or plants 24 or Transwestern's equipment or plants? 25 A. The group that I ran may have. We tested JUDY COMP & ASSOCIATES WATER PCB-SD0000042386 347 1 samples from a large number of customers. 2 I don't recollect it specifically. 3 Q D o you remember ever getting a sample 4 from Texas Eastern or Transwestern? 5 A . No , sir. 6 Q I f you did receive such a sample, would 7 i t be reflected in the log book? 8 MR . ZIMMER: Calls for speculation 9 A . I f the log book was being used at that 10 time, I assume it would have been 11 standard operating procedure to put it 12 in. There were any number of ways in 13 which sample receipt and things of that 14 sort were documented. Sometimes we used 15 to get a work request for analysis from 16 the people submitting and things of that 17 sort, and that would be used as the 18 documentation. If there was a log book 19 and we were logging those samples into it 20 it would be in that log book. 21 Q Other than the log book, what were some 22 other ways that you kept records of 23 samples? 24 There were work requests that were 25 submitted by people that were in the JUDY COMP & ASSOCIATES WATER PCB-SD0000042387 348 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q. A. Q. A. groups that we provided analytical support to. Usually they were triplicate copy things or something like that, and I can't remember if they were NCR carbonless carbon paper or not. Very frankly, I don't think they were. But we would get a copy of it, and they would keep a copy of it, and we would keep those as records sometimes. We also might attach those to the report and file it with the report that was provided back to the customer whoever our client happened to be, the customer being used as internal. We didn't provide that information externally. Meaning another division or department of Monsanto? Uh-huh (affirmative). Did you ever get unsolicited samples from customers or other outside companies other than Monsanto asking for analyses? The samples I would- get would have to come through somebody prior to reaching us. They would not come directly to us unless they were prearranged agreements. JUDY COMP & ASSOCIATES WATER PCB-SD0000042388 349 1 Q. Meaning it would have to go through 2 someone else at Monsanto? 3 A . Right. 4 Q. Did those work requests have a specific 5 form that you could recognize if you saw 6 it ? 7 A . Yes. 8 Q. Were copies of those stored at the lab? 9 A. I believe so. 10 Q. Do you know what happened to them? 11 A. No, sir, I do not. 12 MR. KASHANI: Let's take a break. 13 (OFF RECORD) 14 MR. KASHANI: I'll introduce two 15 more documents. Let's introduce 16 them both together. 17 (Thereupon the Court Reporter 18 marked the pertinent document as 19 PLAINTIFF'S EXHIBITS NUMBERS 353A 20 AND 3 5 4 - A ) . 21 Q . D r . T u c k e r, I'm showing you Exhibit 22 and 3 5 4 , and ask you if you r e c o g n i 23 either of these Exhibits? 24 A . Give me a chance to review -- 25 Q . Sure JUDY COMP & ASSOCIATES WATER PCB-SD0000042389 350 1 A . -------please. '2 Q. Of course. Take as long as you want. 3 A. Okay. (The witness peruses the 4 documents) . 5 Q. Do you recognize either of these 6 documents ? 7 A. Not specifically. 8 Q. Do you have any general recollection of 9 the subject matter? _ 10 A. I generally recognize the Monthly Summary 11 memo and generally recognize the subject 12 matter in the other memo. 13 Q. The Monthly Summary memo is Exhibit 354, 14 and the other memo is Exhibit 353. 15 A. Yes, sir. 16 Q. Monthly summary, is that something you 17 prepared every month? 18 A . Yes, sir. 19 Q. And what was the purpose of the Monthly 20 Summaries ? 21 A. To document and update Keller where we 22 were at. To justify our existence. 23 Q. Was Exhibit Three Fifty-four one of those 24 Monthly Summaries? ' V* 25 A. It appears to be so, yes. JUDY COMP & ASSOCIATES WATER PCB-SD0000042390 351 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q. And did all of your Monthly Summaries follow the same general format? A. As best I can recollect, yes. Q. Were these summaries something you did in the ordinary course of your business --------- ordinary course of your work at Monsanto? A . Yes. Q. And can weassume that it was important to your work there that the summaries be as accurate as possible? As accurate as you could make them? A . Yes. Q. Going back to Exhibit 353, this refers to "Aroclors having been applied to soil and test plots at the University of Florida on the 28th of June, 1939." I'm referring to the firstsentence in Exhibit 353. What was that all about? A. I don't recall what it was all about. This occurred six months before I was born. Q. Oh, I don't mean the application of the soils, but --------- A. I'm sorry, but I don't recall what it was about. JUDY COMP & ASSOCIATES WATER PCB-SD0000042391 352 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q. Do you remember receiving samples from test plots that had been exposed to Aroclors in 1939? A. I believe we did, yes. Q. And after simple preparation did you analyze those samples? A. I do not recall it specifically, but I believe we probably did. Q. Do you remember the results? _ A. Not specifically, no, sir. Q. Do you remember if you detected any PCBs in those soils? A. Not specifically. Q. Do you have any general recollection? A. If they put them in there, we probably detected them. Q. By "put them in there," do you mean if --------- by putting them in there you mean applying --------- when whoever it was applied Aroclors to the soil plots in 1939? A. Uh-huh (affirmative). Q. And by "We probably saw them," do you mean that after you analyzed these soil plots after --------- I guess we're talking about thirty years --------- you still detected JUDY COMP & ASSOCIATES WATER PCB-SD0000042392 353 1 the presence of PCBs in those soil plots? '2 A . It is possible. And the reason I say 3 that is, although I don't have details, 4 from the memo it states that they were 5 using this as termite deterrents or 6 something of that sort. So I would 7 imagine that they were applied at some 8 very gross high level, and having that 9 much Aroclor in there would make it, you 10 know, such a sterile environment that it 11 would be just like putting it in a jar. 12 Q. And the Aroclors was essentially 13 unaffected after thirty years? 14 MR. ZIMMER: Lacks foundation. 15 Calls for speculation. 16 A. I don't recall specifically. 17 Q. Do you recall generally detecting any 18 Aroclor in these samples? 19 Not in these specific samples. I'd have 20 to see some documentation, some report or 21 something of that sort to ---------to 22 specifically recall' this. I don ' t 23 specifically recall the details of these 24 samples. We analyzed a lot. 25 Q. I'm going to refer you to Exhibit 354, in JUDY COMP & ASSOCIATES WATER PCB-SD0000042393 354 1 the last paragraph on page one. It's 2 TRAN 058742. It reads, "Forty-five 3 Aroclor treated soil samples from a 4 Florida test plot have been provided by 5 the Agricultural Division. The Aroclor 6 was placed in these plots in 1938." Is 7 that referring to the same plots as 8 Exhibit 353? 9 A . I don't know for sure. If I had to 10 guess. I would. I don ' t know . The date s 11 are different. One s a y s ' 3 9 in the memo s 12 that I have and one s a y s '38. As I 13 stated. we analyzed a lot o f s amp 1e s o ve r 14 the eleven years or so that I was at 15 Monsanto. 16 Q Going back to Exhibit 353, this refers to 17 plots which were laced or exposed to 18 Aroclors approximately thirty years 19 before the date of the memo and they were 20 sent for analysis. Do you remember 21 analyzing any plots of this type, soil 22 samples that were exposed to Aroclor 23 many, many years before the analysis? 24 A . I do not remember specifically analyzing 25 these samples, as I've stated earlier. JUDY COMP & ASSOCIATES WATER PCB-SD0000042394 355 1 Q. . Do you have any general recollection of 2 these samples? 3 A. Yes. I have a general recollection of 4 samples from a poison test plot for 5 termites in Florida. 6 Q. And, do you recall the results of those 7 analyses? 8 A. No, sir, I do not. 9 Q. Do you recall if you detected any PCBs at 10 all? 11 A. I just stated I do not recall. 12 Q. Would you have been surprised if you had 13 found no PCBs in those plots? 14 A. In which plots? The ones in Florida? 15 Q. The reference in Exhibit 353. 16 A. Looking at the memo --------- what I need to 17 know the levels that they were laced 18 with; okay. And if I knew the levels, 19 and they were inordinately high, which I 20 suspicion they are, I would have been 21 surprised if we did not detect the PCBs 22 in there. In one of the four situations 23 mentioned here, the 5442, I would have 24 been surprised if we detected PCBs in 5 ' 25 that since it's a terphenyl. JUDY COMP & ASSOCIATES WATER PCB-SD0000042395 356 1 Q. Meaning if they had put Aroclor 5442 '2 there wouldn't be PCBs because it is not 3 a polychlorinated biphenyl? 4 A. That's correct. 5 Q. But, turning to the second paragraph of 6 Exhibit 353, it says, Aroclors 1242, 7 1248, and 1254 were mixed in test soil 8 (one cubic foot per plot) at two rates of 9 application and in replicate spots." . 10 Would you have been surprised to detect 11 Aroclors 1242, 1248, or 1254 in these 12 plots? 13 MR. ZIMMER: Lacks foundation. 14 Incomplete --------- hypothetical, if you 15 will. 16 A . I would neithe r have been surprised nor 17 unsurprised. I don't -- I don't - -- I'm 18 not sure why I would get emotional over 19 the situation or be s led by it. 20 Q . D o you recall writing up any report o f 21 the analyses o f these test plots? 22 A . No , sir, I do not. 23 Q . D o you recall publishing any papers that 24 ref er to these plots? 25 A . No , sir, I do not. JUDY COMP & ASSOCIATES WATER PCB-SD0000042396 357 1 Q. Earlier I pointed out a memo with your '2 name on it which referred to proving that 3 Aroclor 1242 was biodegradable. If you 4 had found that these test plots did not 5 contain any Aroclor 1242 after thirty 6 years, would that have contributed 7 towards the goal of proving that Aroclor 8 1242 was biodegradable? 9 A . "Yes" and "no." . 10 Q . How so? 11 A. First of all, if the Aroclors were 12 introduced into this soil, and if it was 13 a sandy Florida soil or whatever it was, 14 which is pretty sterile to begin with, 15 and they were introduced at, say, a 25 16 percent incorporation level by weight or 17 something of that sort, and I didn't find 18 them there, I would have been very 19 surprised if we analyzed them, okay, 20 because under those kinds of conditions, 21 I would not expect, from what I knew 22 about those materials at that point in 23 time. that they would go away c omp1e t e1y, 24 and that'you wouldn't see portions of it. 25 So, it really would depend upon the JUDY COMP & ASSOCIATES WATER PCB-SD0000042397 358 1 overall total picture as to whether or 2 not that type of information would 3 support or deny the biodegradabi1ity of a 4 material. There are a number of 5 variables that determine whether a 6 material biodegrades or not. If you take 7 and put Aroclor 1242 in a five gallon can 8 and put it in a warehouse for 15 0 years. 9 I will guarantee you when you come back 10 and look in that warehouse if it's still 11 there, and the can's still there, and you 12 look inside, you probably will find what 13 you put in there. 14 Q. You mean the Aroclor 1242? 15 A. That's correct. And I would not use that 16 as evidence that the material wasn't 17 biodegradable, because that's totally out 18 of context, totally out of perspective of 19 how the biological systems work. If, on 20 the other hand, they had spiked these 21 soils which were not just pure sand or 22 something of that sort, but soils that 23 had significant biological activity, 24 organics available and things of that 25 sort, and spike them at very low levels. JUDY COMP & ASSOCIATES WATER PCB-SD0000042398 359 1 when I came back and I analyzed those 2 soils, I'd be willing to speculate --------- 3 not beyond a shadow of a doubt --------- that 4 this along ----------- if they weren't there when 5 I analyzed them and especially if they 6 were just, you know, very altered or very 7 different ---------- I would be willing to 8 speculate and combine that information 9 with a variety of other information from 10 different sources and talk about the 11 relative biodegradabi1ity of them. It's 12 not a yes/no and on/off situation. 13 Q You mentioned a paper that you had 14 written in the seventies which reflected 15 that Aroclor 1242 was biodegradable to 16 some extent. Did you use the results of 17 these soil tests in that paper? 18 A . No, sir. 19 MR. ZIMMER: That mischaracter i zes 20 his testimony about the paper too. 21 A . Well, regardless of the 22 mischaracterization. or whatever--------- 23 Q Do you know the paper I'm referring to? 24 A . I know the paper I published, yes, and 25 that information from the soil test plots JUDY COMP & ASSOCIATES WATER PCB-SD0000042399 360 1 was not used in there since it wasn't ---------- 2 didn't have anything to do with it. I'm 3 not even sure the data was available at 4 the time the paper was published, but 5 even if it had been it had no bearing on 6 it. I wasn't a controlled test. 7- (OFF RECORD) 8 MR. KASHANI: Next Exhibit. 9 (Thereupon the Court Reporter .. 10 marked the pertinent document as 11 PLAINTIFF'S EXHIBIT NUMBER 355-A). 12 (OFF RECORD) 13 Q. I'll hand youanother Exhibit. I'm 14 handing you what has been marked as 15 Exhibit 355, and ask you to review that. 16 A . Okay. 17 Q. Do you recognize this document? 18 A . N o , s i r . 19 Q. This document refers to a meeting which 20 took place on June 30, 1970. On the face 21 of the document, it refers to such a 22 meeting. Do you recall any such meeting? 23 A . No, sir. -5' * 24 Q. It says that those present at the meeting 25 were R. Munch, R. Keller, E.S. Tucker, JUDY COMP & ASSOCIATES WATER PCB-SD0000042400 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 361 V.W. Saeger, and E.M. Emery. Does that trigger any recollection of the meeting? A . No, sir. MR. KASHANI: Let's go off the record for a second. (OFF RECORD) Q. Dr. Tucker, I asked you earlier about when it was that Monsanto first proposed or when it was that it was first_ discussed or you first heard about the possibility of producing MCS 1016. Does this memo trigger any recollection about when that replacement product was first proposed? A. No, sir. As a matter of fact, in reviewing the memo, I didn't see any mention of it. Q. Does Aroclor 1242B mean anything to you? A. I believe I stated earlier when asked that question that it did not. Q. What about Aroclors 1230B? A . No , s i r . Q. Now, going back to the first page, the document --------- this is TRAN 038874 ---------- on about the --------- mid-paragraph --------- you have JUDY COMP & ASSOCIATES WATER PCB-SD0000042401 362 1 a paragraph that begins with the words 2 "Presently Known" underlined. And then it 3 reads, "Presently known: Thecomposition 4 of both standard Aroclor and the 5 replacement products by isomers and/or 6 chlorine level." Do you know what that's 7 referring to? 8 MR. ZIMMER: Calls for speculation 9 and lacks foundation. 10 Q Is that a correct statement as of July 7, 11 1 9 7 0 ? 12 A . No, sir. 13 Q s in correct about i t ? 14 MR . ZIMMER: What does the 15 s t a t erne nt say, for starters, 16 C o u n s e1? He's never seen th 17 b e f o re and it w a s n ' t written 18 MR . KASHANI: He ' s just sai 19 i n c o rrect, and I've asked hi 20 --------- we've moved on. I mean, I've 21 asked him what's --------- 22 MR. ZIMMER: Well, I haven't moved 23 o n . 24 MR. KASHANI: ---------- incorrect on 25 that. JUDY COMP & ASSOCIATES WATER PCB-SD0000042402 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 363 MR. ZIMMER: I'm still puzzled about what the question is. You're asking him to interpret something somebody else wrote. MR. KASHANI: You're not answering the questions. Dr. Tucker said that . this was incorrect. MR. ZIMMER: Well, something about the way he reads it is incorrect, but we don't know what was in the mind of the author. That's the problem. He can tell you what he thinks is incorrect about it. That's fine. Q. What's incorrect about it? A. At this date in 1970, and even to this date today, we do not know, by complete definition, all the isomers and/or chlorine levels that are present in any and all of the Aroclor products ---------- products as they were manufactured then. So, I find this to be incorrect, and I find it to be a statement made by an individual who didn't understand what we're talking about here today. JUDY COMP & ASSOCIATES WATER PCB-SD0000042403 364 1 Q. Who is that individual? 2 A . E d Emery. 3 Q . He ' s the fellow who signed this memo? 4 A . 11 ' s the person who this memo is from. 5 Q . You said you didn't recognize the memo 6 How do you know that this memo is from 7 Mr . Emery and that - -- 8 A. Because up at the top it says, "From.: 9 Name and Location: E.M. Emery", so I'm 10 assuming that if the memo is an accurate 11 memo --------- and that's conjecture --------- that 12 it's from who it says it's from, who is 13 Ed Emery. And Ed Emery --------- I know Ed 14 Emery and I know his knowledge of the 15 situation, and I don't think that he knew 16 what h e was saying here 17 When w e encounter memos o f this type that 18 say " From" and a name. can we ass ume that 19 the memo is accurate, as you are doing 20 now, that the memo came from the name 21 listed after the "From"? 22 MR. ZIMMER: Do not answer that. 23 We are not going to make any 24 a s s u mp tions. 25 MR. KASHANI: I'm not entitled to JUDY COMP & ASSOCIATES WATER PCB-SD0000042404 1 '2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 365 make the same assumption Dr. Tucker is making? Dr. Tucker is assuming this memo is from Mr. Emery because MR. ZIMMER: Dr. Tucker is going MR. KASHANI: it says ----------- MR. ZIMMER: --------- beyond what he has to do in responding to your questions, and he is assisting you in trying to figure out something that I'mabout to cut off, because his job is to sit here and answer your questions and not guess, speculate, or assume. MR. KASHANI: Dr. Tucker said that this memo is from Mr. Emery, based on the fact that Mr. Emery is listed after the "From" line on this memo. MR. ZIMMER: Right. MR. KASHANI: And I'm entitled to explore --------- MR. ZIMMER: And he's not going to do any other assuming ---------- MR. KASHANI: I'm entitled to JUDY COMP & ASSOCIATES WATER PCB-SD0000042405 366 1 explore why - -- the b a si s of that. '2 MR . ZIMMER: He said he assumes 3 that because his name is there, that 4 he mu st have written the memo if it 5 wa s actually written and if it went 6 out as it shows. You can interpret 7 the memo just a s well as Dr. Tucker 8 can in terms of whether it ever was 9 sent or not. That's as far as we ' 10 g o i n g to go. 11 Q . This me mo is similar to other memo s of 12 this type that we've seen today. On 13 memos of that type where it writes the 14 "From " 1 i ne from that person, does that 15 indicate that person wrote the memo? 16 MR. ZIMMER: Lacks foundation. 17 Calls for speculation. 18 Q . Was someone running around Monsanto 19 putting other people's names on memos? 20 A . I wouldn't know that. 21 MR. ZIMMER: I'll be happy to tell 22 you probably not. But why are we 23 wasting time with this? 24 MR. KASHANI Because we are 25 encountering difficulty JUDY COMP & ASSOCIATES WATER PCB-SD0000042406 1 '2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 367 authenticating documents, and we're seeking any way that we can establish who wrote documents and when they were written. MR. ZIMMER: Well, you can't establish who wrote this document through somebody that didn't write it and doesn't remember seeing it before. As soon as you find that . out, you should move on. A. Let me categorically state that I could not validate that this document was written --------- ever written, or by who it's written, or that any people on this distribution, list really received it--------- MR. ZIMMER: He knows that. A. ----------- and that includes me who is on there, and I've already stated that I don't recognize this document specifically. I don't understand what the issue is here. If you're trying to get me to say something that I don't want to say, or that I can't say, or that's'not true, I have a problem with that. So, what is the issue here? JUDY COMP & ASSOCIATES WATER PCB-SD0000042407 368 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q. Q. MR. ZIMMER: Let's just let him ask his questions. You stated that Mr. Emery was not entirely correct when he made the statement on this memo, and I'm just asking how you know that Mr. Emery said that, or whatcauses you to say that Mr. Emery said that? MR. ZIMMER: He gave you his interpretation of aparticular sentence in a memo, which I probably shouldn't have let him go that far to do since he disclaimed any prior knowledge of it or who wrote it. But we're talking in circles here now, because he's not going to do any more assuming for you. Now, if you have a question about a subject matter in the memo, if you can refresh his recollection about it or something, that's fine. Was your basis for saying Dr. Emery wrote this was the fact that Dr. Emery, or E.M. Emery is listed on the front line of this memo? ' JUDY COMP & ASSOCIATES WATER PCB-SD0000042408 369 1 A. That was my only basis. 2 Q. Referring again to this phrase. I 3 understand your testimony that even today 4 we do not know 100 percent, completely, 5 the complete isomerization --------- the 6 complete composition of every Aroclor. 7 A. Correct. 8 Q. But as of the time of this memo, July, 9 1970, did you know the approximate _ 10 composition of the Aroclors? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. Did you know that each Aroclor contained 13 a mixture of homologs and isomers? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. Did you know that each Aroclor contained 16 biphenyls with different numbers of 17 chlorines ? 18 A. That's what homologs and isomers are. 19 Q. Your answer is "yes"? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. Did you know at that time that, for 22 example, Aroclor 1242 contained biphenyls 23 with different numbers of chlorines? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. Let's move on. JUDY COMP & ASSOCIATES WATER PCB-SD0000042409 1 '2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 370 A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. MR. KASHANI: Exhibit next in order. (Thereupon the Court Reporter marked the pertinent document as PLAINTIFF'S EXHIBIT NUMBER 356-A) Okay. Do you recognize this Exhibit 356? Not specifically. Is that your signature at the bottom? . It appears to be. Do you have any general recollection of the topic matter of the Exhibit? Yes. It's second sentence of the first paragraph refers to, "Also included are samples of two blends of distillation cuts from Aroclor 1142." What is Aroclor 114 2? I don't recall. I want to refer you back to an earlier Exhibit, 326, and refer you to page --------- well, it's numbered page on, what is page TRAN 006987, and first paragraph. ask you to read that v' (Witness complies with request). Okay. JUDY COMP & ASSOCIATES WATER PCB-SD0000042410 371 1 Q . Does that refresh your recollection as to 2 what was Aroclor 1142? 3 A . No, sir. 4 Q. What is a distillation cut from Aroclor 5 1142? Referring back to Exhibit 356. 6 A. "Distillation" usually refers to a 7 process whereby a mate rial is heated up 8 and components that ar e present in that 9 material, if it's a mu lti-component 10 mixture, vaporize. If those materials 11 are collected for a pe riod of time and 12 represent a portion of what was 13 originally being disti lied, then what you 14 have is a fraction or a cut--------15 distillation cut. 16 Q. Do you mean, in the context of Aroclors, 17 that through distillation, certain 18 components of the Aroclor could be 19 removed? 20 A. Correct. And I mean that in terms of 21 gasoline and petroleum and everything 22 that the engineering concept of 23 distillation is employed for, including 24 water . 25 Q. To refer to the rest of the sentence ---------- JUDY COMP & ASSOCIATES WATER PCB-SD0000042411 372 1 the full sentence --------- and this is the '2 second sentence, first paragraph of 3 Exhibit 356, it reads, "Also included are 4 samples of two blends of distillation 5 cuts from Aroclor 1142, prepared by R. 6 Munch, to see if elimination of the 7 higher chlorinated isomers would make a 8 product which would be more 9 biodegradable." Do you know what that's 10 referring to? 11 A. Based on the document that you just had 12 me review --------- 13 Q. Refer --------- 14 A . I--------- 15 Q. Referring back to Exhibit 326? 16 A. I believe that's the thick one --------- the 17 one that deals with the product 18 specifications and how they make it and 19 that kind of stuff? 20 Q. Yes. How they make Aroclor. 21 A. That's the first time that I understood 22 that 11 meant crude biphenyl. I've 23 always understood that 12, in the 1242 or 24 1221, meant the finished product, but I 25 never knew that the 11 did. So, based on JUDY COMP & ASSOCIATES WATER PCB-SD0000042412 373 1 that, and this information, I would say '2 that Ralph Munch either did or had crude 3 Aroclor 1242, which would be 1142 4 fractionated through distillation, and 5 collected those cuts and made them 6 available. 7 Q . And did he remove the higher chlorinated 8 isomers from the crude Aroclor 1242? 9 MR . ZIMMER: Calls for speculation 10 Lacks foundation. 11 A . It implies it in the memo that I'm 12 reading. 13 MR . ZIMMER: See, that's the 14 dilemma. 15 THE WITNESS : Yeah, I --------- 16 MR . ZIMMER: He's asking you what 17 your memory i s . 18 A . Okay. My memory does not contain that 19 information, but it implies it in the 20 memo that you 1v e asked me to read. 21 Q Referring to--------- recall yesterday we 22 discussed MCS 1016 and the process by 23 which MCS 1016 -- - 24 A . Yes. 25 Q ------ is produced? Does that also, at one JUDY COMP & ASSOCIATES WATER PCB-SD0000042413 374 1 point, involve crude Aroclor 12 4 2 ? '2 A . It could, but I don't know that. For 3 example, I don't know what 10 stands for. 4 Do you know what 10 stands fo r f r o m any 5 review of the documents? I'd b e curious 6 because I don't. 7 Q Do you know what MCS 1016 stands for? 8 A . Yes, I know what --------- I know what MCS 10 16 9 is . 10 Q Right. . 11 A . But I don't know what the 10 i s , for 12 example, like the 11 --------- the 1 2 I do 13 know. 14 Q Do you remember running any - - - this memo 15 refers to samples of two blen d s o f 16 distillation cuts from 1142. D o you 17 remember running any tests on those 18 samples? 19 A . No, sir. 20 Q. Do you remember if, at the time of the 21 date listed on this memo --------- this is 22 Exhibit 356, you had the ability --------- and 23 by "you," I mean the laboratories at 24 Monsanto --------- I'm asking for your 25 knowledge and what you knew. Did the JUDY COMP & ASSOCIATES WATER PCB-SD0000042414 375 1 laboratories at Monsanto have the ability '2 to remove the PCBs with more chlorine on 3 them from a batch of Aroclor? . 4 A. Yes. They probably had the capability. 5 Q. Through this distillation process that 6 you discussed? 7 A. (Witness nods head in the affirmative). 8 Yes. 9 Q. Going down to the third paragraph of . 10 Exhibit 356, it reads, "Do your 11 micro-organisms, once adapted to 12 biphenyl, require further feeding on 13 biphenyl to continue degrading the 14 chlorinated biphenyls." Do you know what 15 the "your" is referring to? 16 A. I believe it's referring to organisms 17 that the Ruabon people were using to 18 study degradeabi1ity. 19 Q. Was Mr. Lidgett --------- L-i-d-g-e-t-t ---------- in 20 Ruabon? 21 A . Yes, sir. 22 Q. And was he doing work on biodegradation 23 of PCBs ? ?' * 24 A. I don't know if he was specifically doing 25 it or if he was supervising it. He was JUDY COMP & ASSOCIATES WATER PCB-SD0000042415 376 1 associated with it. 2 Q. And do you remember the subject matter of 3 that question which is in the third 4 paragraph of Three, Fifty-six relating to 5 the micro-organisms? 6 A . Yes. 7 Q. And what do you remember about that? 8 A. I remember that it had to do with the 9 concept of co-metabo 1ism which I 10 mentioned earlier. 11 Q. Do you remember getting an answer to this 12 question? 13 A. No, sir, I do not. 14 Q. Just to refresh my memory, is this 15 referring to having some biphenyl in the 16 mix to, let's say, facilitate the 17 biodegradation of the Aroclor? 18 A. Yes. In-two ways. 19 Q. What are those ways? 20 A. One way, in that the biphenyl molecule 21 without any chlorines on it is easier for 22 less resistance and less unusual for 23 bacteria to encounter. So, when the 24 bacteria encounter that they develop the 25 appropriate enzyme systems to use that as JUDY COMP & ASSOCIATES WATER PCB-SD0000042416 377 1 both a carbon source and as an energy 2 source. If that material is continuously 3 provided to them and it's their only 4 source of energy, or it's a significant 5 source of energy and/or building blocks, 6 in terms of the feed they're receiving, 7 they'll continue to develop the enzymes 8 that are required to metabolize those 9 things. If it's withdrawn they may not. 10 Q. Meaning if the biphenyl is withdrawn? 11 A. Correct. So, if you were to take those 12 organisms and adapt them on biphenyl so 13 that they could oxidize biphenyl and then 14 begin feeding them chlorinated biphenyls 15 they would probably metabolize the 16 chlorinated biphenyls, but they may quit 17 if they are not continued to be --------- if 18 they are not continually provided with 19 the easier carbon and energy source 20 biphenyl. And if that happens, then of 21 course, they wouldn't degrade those. So, 22 the other thing is is that the bug 23 population needs a n energy source that 24 can keep up with i t so it can stay viable 25 and not only use the energy source that JUDY COMP & ASSOCIATES WATER PCB-SD0000042417 378 1 it's getting to stay viable but also to 2 co-metabo-lize other things, and that's 3 what that's meant by. 4 Q. Is a biphenyl molecule a PCB molecule 5 without any chlorine on it? 6 A. You could describe it that way, yes. 7 Q. And----------I don't want to mischaracter i ze 8 what you said, so I'm trying to put it in 9 layman's terms. You understand my 10 problem? 11 A. Yeah. That's fine. 12 Q. Is it correct to say with your 13 description that by supplying some 14 biphenyl initially the micro-organisms 15 --------- the bacteria --------- become used to 16 eating, as it were, the biphenyl and this 17 enables them more readily to digest and 18 degrade the PCB? 19 A. Yes. It allows us in the laboratory to 20 speed the process up so that we can 21 observe the degradation in the time that 22 we have to monitor it. The same thing 23 would probably occur in the environment, 24 but it would take long periods of time. 25 By introducing the biphenyl and JUDY COMP & ASSOCIATES WATER PCB-SD0000042418 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 379 Q. A. shortening ---------- short-circuiting the step and making it go faster, we can observe it on a real time basis. That's what that's all about. How long is a "long period of time"? Relative to in the laboratory or relative Q. A. Q. A. Q A. Q A. Yes. Well, depends on how much money you've got and how much time. I mean, you know, a month ---------- spending a month in studying a particular isomer and the biodegradabi1ity of it is a long time if you've got 210 of them. I guess my question is how ---------- by what factor, or how much is the process of biodegradation of PCB speeded up by introducing biphenyl into the mix? It ' s not necessarily that it speeds up the process, but it causes its inception t o occur earlier. How much earlier? 11 depends. On what? 11 depends on the bugs, and it depends on JUDY COMP & ASSOCIATES WATER PCB-SD0000042419 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 380 Q A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. the temperature, and it depends on the day of the week and where the bugs were gotten, and it just depends on so many variables that it's not predictable. But it is known that it will and can speed things up and that it well and can cause co-metabolism. So, the experiments you did in the laboratory were more favorable towards biodegradation than the natural environment ? No . Is biphenyl available in the natural environment ? Probably could be, yes. Is it available in the quantities that you used in the lab and the concentrations that you used in your lab tests? The biodegradation studies that were done ---------- that were published ---------- were not studies in which the biphenyl content of the constituents were cause co-metabo1ism. supplemented to -v \ ' We'll get back to those studies ---------- JUDY COMP & ASSOCIATES WATER PCB-SD0000042420 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 381 A. I mean, that seems to imply that ---------- I think you ---------- to me at least, you're leaving on the table an accusation that the biodegradation that we observed and published was stimulated through synthetic conditions, i.e. the additions of biphenyls which was not the case. Q. But ------------- I know that there were other experiments without the biphenyl. A. Q. Okay. I understand that. But the experiments with the biphenyl ---------- you just described those as synthetic conditions. Is that A. an accurate term? They were synthetic conditions that the biologists in Ruabon were using to initiate the degradation of things. Q. By"synthetic" you mean it was not ----------- a condition that was not present in nature? A. No. I mean that it was acondition that was put togethervin the laboratory. I don't know that it couldn't be present in nature too. So, I mean, there's a ---------- Q. A. What ------------------- difference there. JUDY COMP & ASSOCIATES WATER PCB-SD0000042421 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 382 Q. Sure. I understand. What concentration of biphenyl was typically used in the experiments in which biphenyl was used to trigger biodegradation? A. I don't recall. Q. Was it higher than what would commonly be found in nature? A. I would doubt it, but I don't recall. Q. Is biphenyl a manufactured compound? Is it something that Monsanto made, for e x a mp 1 e ? A. Q. Yes. Is it something that Monsanto synthesized in the lab or extracted from nature somehow? A. Monsanto synthesized it in an operating unit, a chemical plant. Q. Is it something that I could go out and harvest in nature in commercial quantities, meaning biphenyl? A. The kicker there is commercial quantities. What do you mean by "commercial quantities"? Q. The quantities that Monsanto was selling of biphenyl. JUDY COMP & ASSOCIATES WATER PCB-SD0000042422 1 '2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 383 A. No. That's why they manufactured it synthetically. That's why a number of naturally occurring constituents are manufactu red synthetically. Q . I'm t r yin g to get a feel for how common biphe ny1 i s in nature. Is it - - - A. I think i t ' s relatively common. Q . Is it as common as salt, for example? A . No . Q . As common a s P CB s ? A . It might b e . You know, that's a n interesti ng question. It might b e . Let's put i t to you this way. Biphenyl is two benzene rings. Q. Yes. A. How common is benzene in the natural environment ? Q. I don't know. A. Very common. And so, what I'm saying is the probability of those two rings combining, you know, in the petroleum reservoirs under the ground at high temperatures and pressures and things of that sort is probably fairly high, and so, certainly, I would say there might be JUDY COMP & ASSOCIATES WATER PCB-SD0000042423 1 '2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 384 Q. A. Q. A. Q A. Q. part per million levels of biphenyl that naturally occur in the environment from that process. And so, from that conclusion ---------- if that were true. This is speculation ------------ since PCBs are at part per billion levels and that kind of thing in the environment, then they might be equatable. Are those the concentrations you used in the tests with biphenyl? For ---------- we never ---------- the tests in the United States, to my knowledge, we never fed biphenyl in conjunction with the PCBs to bring about this co-metabo1ism because we got the materials to degrade with our bugs without doing that. Do you know what concentrations were used in Ru abon---------- No, sir. ---------- concentrations of biphenyl? I do not . MR. ZIMMER: Ruabon . Ruabon. Yes, it is Ruabon, (OFF RECORD) MR. KASHANI: Let's go to the next JUDY COMP & ASSOCIATES WATER PCB-SD0000042424 1 .2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 385 Q. A. Q. A. Q. Exhibit. (Thereupon the Court Reporter marked the pertinent document as PLAINTIFF'S EXHIBIT NUMBER 357-A). Exhibit 357. (Witness peruses document). Okay. Do you recognize this document? Not specifically. Do you have any general recollection of it ? ' A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. Yes. Who was Mr. Baxter ---------- R. Baxter? You know, as I recall, I think the gentleman in that last memo ---------- what was his name? Liggett? Lidgett? Lidgett. Lidgett reported to Baxter. Baxter was in charge of ---------- I suppose among other things ---------- biodegration studies ---------- A. He could have been, yes. Q. There's some handwriting up at the --------------- under the ---------- I guess under the word "Lidgett" on this document. Do you -y' A recognize that handwriting? JUDY COMP & ASSOCIATES WATER PCB-SD0000042425 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 386 A. No, sir. Q. Do you recognize the signature? A. Down at the bottom of the memo, is that what you're talking about? Q. Yes. A. No, sir. Q. The fourth paragraph of this document states ---------- well, let's go to the third paragraph that reads, "The samples sent,, by Scott Tucker have now arrived and we shall be including these bromoch1orobipheny1s in our subsequent experiments." Do you remember those samples? A. Not specifically. Q. What'sa "bromochlorobiphenyl"? A. Chemically, what that name means is is that it's a biphenyl molecule that has chlorine and bromine attached to it. Bromine is just a higher atomic weight halogen, just as, like iodine and fluorine and astanine ---------- astatine or whatever it is ---------- I always forget that one. Q. Why did you send was this a synthesized JUDY COMP & ASSOCIATES WATER PCB-SD0000042426 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 387 molecule, bromochlorobiphenyl? A. It probably was, yes. Q. Do you remember when it was ---------- when Monsanto first synthesized it? A. Q. No, sir. Was there any particular reason to synthesize bromochlorobiphenyl? A. Q. A. Yes. What was thatreason? . I believe that people were interested in seeing what would happen if you substituted bromine for chlorine on biphenyl. Q. In that context, were people at Monsanto, to your knowledge, interested in seeing if the resulting molecule ---------- I guess the resulting compound which had bromine as well as chlorine on the biphenyl ---------- was more biodegradable than chlorine alone? A. They were interested in seeing how biodegradable it was, yes. Q. Do you remember if any tests were run to determine how biodegradable the substance A. was? Not specifically. JUDY COMP & ASSOCIATES WATER PCB-SD0000042427 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 388 Q A. Q A. Q A. D O you remember generally any tests? I n general, I think there probably were some tests that were run. D o you remember the results? No , sir. S o , was this an attempt to see if a substance that was, I guess, similar t o PCB might be more biodegradable than PCB? MR. ZIMMER: Well, he hasn't said, that it was indeed done. He's postulated for you why it might be done. MR. KASHANI: He said he has general recollection that this was synthesized and that tests were run. I'm asking if he were aware that there was any consideration on Monsanto's part that substitution of bromine for chlorine and producing a molecule that contains bromine as well as chlorine, sort of a PCB with bromine, might be more biodegradable than PCBs alone. I think that's what they were trying to find out. JUDY COMP & ASSOCIATES WATER PCB-SD0000042428 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 389 Q. Did they succeed? A. I don't know. MR. KASHANI: This next Exhibit, Number 358 ---------(Thereupon the Court Reporter marked the pertinent document as _ PLAINTIFF'S EXHIBIT NUMBER 358-A). A. Q. (Witness peruses document). Do you recognize this document? A. Q. Not this document specifically. Do you remember the experiment that seems to be described in the document? A. Yes, I do . Q. Could you describe that experiment, A. please? There was some interest as to what might happen to the polychlorinated biphenyls used as encapsulation fluids in carbonless carbon paper when the material Q. was burned openly. Carbonless carbon paper was a product A. produced by NCR? Among others. Q. And what was the result of the experiment? JUDY COMP & ASSOCIATES WATER PCB-SD0000042429 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 390 A. Q. A. The experiment was a very preliminary semi-quantitative initial experiment to just see if the Aroclors were volatilized or destroyed or anything of the sort in ---------- by burning in this manner. Unfortunately, I noticed in here that they used the word----------t hat the word "incineration" is used, and this wou1dn ' t be considered incineration as we now think about "incineration" today. I . think that's important to note. "Incineration" today referring to a much higher temperature? Oh, yeah, and very controlled conditions. The experiment just consisted of taking ---------- creating an apparatus that you could suck the smoke and particulates, et cetera, off or a piece of paper that had been set afire and pull that through traps that were filled with hexane, in which polychlorinated biphenyls were very soluble, and so what you would end up doing would be capturing the ----------- any volatilized or vaporized or whatever PCBs from the ---------- and other organics for that JUDY COMP & ASSOCIATES WATER PCB-SD0000042430 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 391 matter too ----------- from the paper in the trap. And then the idea was to look in the traps and see how much was there, very roughly semi-quantitative1y. And then also look at the residual that was left on the paper and just get a feeling for what ---------- what happened when you did this. Q. So, briefly, the experiment consisted of burning some carbonless carbon paper from NCR and seeing if by burning any ----------- among other things ---------- Aroclors were released into the air? A.Correct. Q. Did the carbonless carbon paper contain A. Aroclor 1242? I don't recall specifically. That would Q. be ---------- that would probably be correct. Do you say that because of figure 2, which is at TRAN 007551? A. Q. Correct. You usedAroclor 1242 as a standard ----------- A. Q. Correct. ---------- to see if you could detect the same Aroclor 1242 coming off from the carbon JUDY COMP & ASSOCIATES WATER PCB-SD0000042431 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 392 paper? A. Q. Correct. Do you remember doing any other experiments along these lines? A. No, sir. Q. Do you know if the results of this experiment were reported to NCR? A. No, sir. MR. KASHANI: Let's take a break.. (OFF RECORD) MR. KASHANI: Exhibit 359. (Thereupon the Court Reporter marked the pertinent document as PLAINTIFF'S EXHIBIT NUMBER 359-A). Q. I could ask you my question ----------- the reason I'm bringing the Exhibit is I'm wondering if you don't recall about the Exhibit maybe it might trigger a recollection . A. Is that a question? MR. ZIMMER: Not yet. Q. THE WITNESS: Okay. The question is do you recall discussing or mentioning that ---------- to anyone at Monsanto ---------- that the process that Jensen JUDY COMP & ASSOCIATES WATER PCB-SD0000042432 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 393 A. Q. A. Q. A. Q A. Q A. and Widmark used to analyze PCBs in the environment might have been destroying Aroclor 1242? I don't recall it specifically. Do you have any general recollection of that issue? No. I have no general recollection of that issue . Let me refer you to page two of this . Exhibit, Exhibit 359. It's almost the last paragraph. It begins with "Scott Tucker." It says, "Scott Tucker reported that Aroclor 1242 could be destroyed by HNO3 ----------- and three is a subscript -----------slash H subscript 2 SO4 ----------- and the 4 is a subscript ----------- treatment." What's HNO3? Nitric acid. And what's H3SO4 Sulfuric acid. And can these compounds destroy Aro c 10 r 12 42 ? Nitric acid can. But that ---------- no. "Yes " and "no." There really has to be a "yes " and "no" in this , and it depends on the conditions just like so many things i n JUDY COMP & ASSOCIATES WATER PCB-SD0000042433 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 394 life do. And I can elaborate on the chemical reaction of nitric acid and/or sulfuric acid with chlorinated biphenyls. Q. Let's see if we can restrict it a bit. Were Jensen or Widmark using nitric acid or sulfuric acid in their preparation of samples for testing? MR. ZIMMER: Calls forspeculation. Q. Basedontheirpapers? A. I don't recall. I'd have to review the papers again. Q. Can nitric acid destroy Aroclors other than 1242? A. I would have to ask you what you meant by "destroy." . Q. Break down some of the PCBs such that they would no longer be recognizable by your detection equipment as PCBs? A. Q. Yes. Could nitric acid break down the lower chlorinated PCBs? A. I'dhave to ask you what you mean by "breakdown." Q. Break down the PCBs such that they are no longer recognizable as PCBs in your JUDY COMP & ASSOCIATES WATER PCB-SD0000042434 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 395 detection equipment. A. Q. Yes. And, with that definition, can nitric acid break down the higher chlorinated P CB s ? A. It's possible. Q. Under what conditions? A. Multiple conditions, usually high concentrations of nitric acid, certain periods of time ---------- the longer the better ---------- higher temperatures ---------- the higher the better. As I said, high concentrations, the higher the better. "Higher" in any of these cases means that the reaction or the reagent, nitric acid is more vigorous in its activity or reaction with other organic molecules, and so it depends on temperature, time, and concentration. Q. I refer you back to Exhibit 319 which we earlier discussed, but which appears to refer to Jensen and Widmark's methods or some of their methods. A. Correct. Is there something specific you want me to look at, or would you like me JUDY COMP & ASSOCIATES WATER PCB-SD0000042435 1 `2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 396 to read it? Q. No. Does that refresh your recollection as to whether Jensen and Widmark were using nitric acid or sulfuric acid in the preparation of samples? A . If you give me a chance to read this I will tell you. I don't see it on the first page so I'm going to have to read that if you would like me to accomplish that objective. Q Sure. A. Okay. Good. (OFF RECORD) A. Okay. Q. Were they using sulfuric acid or nitric acid? A. It appears in the second page, under ----------- MR. ZIMMER: Doctor, before you ---------- the question was. does that refresh your recollec t i o n as to whether they were doing it . He doesn't want you to just read the document to him. S o , since you were starting to do that ______ A. Yes, it says they were. It does not say JUDY COMP & ASSOCIATES WATER PCB-SD0000042436 1 '2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 397 how frequently or whether it's done to every sample or when. And it seems to imply that it's a confirmationa 1 technique. Q. What's a confirmat i ona 1 technique? A. "Confirmational technique" means if there's a question or a doubt, you might institute a second test that would help that if it passed that test, would give you two tests that indicated something that might ---------- whether it was a PCB. If there was still some doubt, youmight try a third confirmationa 1 test. Q. A. Okay. And if you were really in doubt and you had a mass spectrometer available to you with a gas chromatograph hooked up to it, you'd do it the right way and you'd use the absolute identification technique ---------- Q. mass spectrometry. So the paper states ----------- the Exhibit states that Jensen and Widmark were using nitric acid and sulfuric acid as part of a further test to detect the presence of PCBs in their samples? JUDY COMP & ASSOCIATES WATER PCB-SD0000042437 1 '2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 398 MR. ZIMMER: The document speaks for itself. Do you want him to just MR. KASHAN I: I haven't had a chance to read the document. I mean A. A. Q. A. Q. Yes. MR. ZIMMER: Well, you showed it to him. . MR. KASHANI: I haven't had a chance to read that particular portion. MR. ZIMMER: Well, I don't care about that. Would that be ---------- MR. KASHANI: The question's been answered. We're going to move on. Okay. That's what the document indicates. Now, having read that, does that refresh any recollection about the reference to nitric acid and sulfuric acid in Exhibit 359 ---------- on page two, 359? Yes. And what was your recollection now that it has been refreshed? JUDY COMP & ASSOCIATES WATER PCB-SD0000042438 1 '2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 399 Q A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. The recollection is that we wanted to assure ourselves that this type of treatment ---------- not assure ourselves ----------- we wanted to know whether this type of treatment in any way, shape, or form could affect what you saw in samples that were treated this way. You mean you wanted to assure yourselves ---------- and this is relating back to . approximately the time of the memo in 1 969? Could be. By "the memo," I mean Exhibit 359. Yeah. May 13th, 1969 is the date on the memo that I've been provided. What I mean ---------- do you mean by assure yourself that you wanted to assure yourselves that Jensen and Widmark were not destroying part of this PCB that they were trying to sample by use of the nitric acid and sulfuric acid? Correct. And is it the case that nitric acid and sulfuric acid will more readily degrade PCBs with fewer chlorines on them? JUDY COMP & ASSOCIATES WATER PCB-SD0000042439 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 400 A. Q. A. Q. A. "Degrade" may not be the right word. Would more readily destroy PCBs with fewer chlorines on them? By "destroy" I mean make them undetectable by the equipment ? Not necessarily. Is there a pattern to what :---------under the same conditions, are some PCBs more likely to be degraded than others by nitric acid and sulfuric acid? Yes. Which PCBs are those in general? It depends upon the reaction that occurs. If the polychlorinated biphenyl is nitrated ---------- in other words, a nitrate group is introduced into the structure or if it's sulfated, in other words an SL3 group was introduced into the structure Q. A. I don't mean to interrupt, but are those the things that can occur if the PCB is exposed to nitric acid or sulfuric acid? That's occur, one of or two the reactions that can VA of the reactions that can occur if they are exposed to mixtures of JUDY COMP & ASSOCIATES WATER PCB-SD0000042440 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 401 the two especially. Those things become polar and so high boiling that you would no longer see them via gas chromatography, and in addition to that, it makes them more water-soluble, so they wouldn't be extracted by the solvents that are used to extract them ---------- the polychlorinated biphenyls. Alternately, you can have oxidation of the ring _ where it opens it up and you're no longer dealing with a biphenyl, but you might be dealing with a phenyl aliphatic compound or something of that sort. And again, that would not give you a reading as a PCB. Alternately, another reaction could occur in which the chlorine on a molecule was replaced with a nitronium or sulfuric ion. In that case, that would be more ----------- there would be a higher probability of that occurring where there were more chlorines on a molecule than less. As I recall, the dominant reaction of chemistry here is nitration and/or sulfonation of open carbons, and that kind of routine. So JUDY COMP & ASSOCIATES WATER PCB-SD0000042441 1 '2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 402 A. Q. A. Q. this would appear, at least at some conditions, to affect the lower chlorinated materials first. Meaning that the lower chlorinated PCBs ----------the PCBs with fewe r chlorines are mo re subject to the re action that will render the molecule more difficult to detect? They could be, depending upon the conditions used. As I mentioned earlier, there's things called time ---------- exposure time ---------- temperature, and concentration or reagents. I understand. But those conditions being equal,.the PCB molecules with fewer chlorines are more subject to these reactions with the nitric acid and sulfuric acid? I don't know that. And that's not necessarily true. Well, what was that ---------- you mentioned a concern expressed here was that ---------- it was a concern expressed here that Jensen and Widmark were not detecting all of the PCBs that were actually present in the JUDY COMP & ASSOCIATES WATER PCB-SD0000042442 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 403 A. Q A. Q. A. Q A. Q. A. Q. s amp 1e ? Correct. So that there actually might b e in the sample than Jen sen and W finding? Correct. And were the PCBs that were not detected falling into any parti type? Were they more likely t o Aroclor 1242? I don't recall. Were they more likely to be P CB fewer chlorines on them? I really don't recall those de t the chemistries, and I would have to review the data or do some experiments to prove that, or we'd have to talk to an organic chemist. There's a reference on Exhibit 359 to Aroclor 1242 that's on the second page. This is it. It just so happens that the TRANS number is 359 here. Sorry. No problem. In Exhibit 359 there's a reference to Aroclor 1242. The full JUDY COMP & ASSOCIATES WATER PCB-SD0000042443 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 404 A. Q. sentence reads, as I read before, "Scott Tucker reported that Aroclor 1242 could be destroyed by HNO3/H2SO4 treatment." Does that refresh your recollection as to whether there was consideration that maybe Jensen and Widmark weren't detecting all of the lower chlorinated PCBs in their samples? No. It wasn't done for that purpose. Jf they used it as a means of confirming things, and we were trying to repeat and validate what they were doing, then we would do that. And we would use that treatment on Aroclor 1242. And then we would report our observations. And it's apparent from this that the observation was that some of the Aroclor had disappeared and could no longer be seen by electron capture. Now, what that means from there in terms of what Jensen and Widmark did or whether they played golf on Saturday or something of that sort, I haven't the faintest damn idea. So it can't be extrapolated that way. By some of the Aroclor disappearing, you JUDY COMP & ASSOCIATES WATER PCB-SD0000042444 1 '2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 405 mean they weren't measuring all of the Aroclor that was, in fact, present in the sample? A. No. I mean that the pattern that we saw after treatment under the conditions that we used, which aren't delineated here, was changed. And you could no longer see exactly the same thing you saw when you compared an untreated sample with a ... treated sample via electron capture gas Q. chromatography. You mean treated by the nitric acid or A. Q. Correct. ---------- sulfuric acid? A. Q. Correct. Do you recall what the difference was in A. the---------Not specifically. No, I don't. I will tell you very frankly as a chemist, though, that when someone runs a reaction at zero degrees centigrade, as indicated in the Jensen and Widmark article, that they are very concerned about keeping that reaction to a minimum, because JUDY COMP & ASSOCIATES WATER PCB-SD0000042445 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 406 that's what lowering the temperature does. If they were to run it at a higher temperature, then they themselves are probably anticipating that it would have an effect that they didn't want; okay? Q When you mention ---------- A As a chemist I would draw that conclusion from this information. Q By this information ---------- and you . referenced the zero degrees ---------- you were referring to Exhibit 319, I believe, which on its face appears to be ---------- A Yes. Q ---------- the description of Jensen and Widmark's work? A Yes. Q In other words, by running the reaction at zero degrees shows a more careful laboratory technique? MR. ZIMMER : Careful than what ? Q Than running a t , say, at room temp erature? A No . It inhibits the reaction Q Does running the reaction at zero degree make it more 1 ik ely to detect the JUDY COMP & ASSOCIATES WATER PCB-SD0000042446 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 407 A. Q. presence of PCBs ---------- I mean ---------- I'll take that back. Does running the reaction at zero degrees make it more precise? No . (OFF RECORD) Did you ever analyze any of the chemical properties of MCS 1016? (OFF RECORD) A. Q. A. No. Do you know if those properties were similar to those of Aroclor 1242? All polychlorinatedbiphenyls have similar chemical properties, so my answer to that question ------------- state that question Q. again, please. Do you know if the properties of MCS 1016 were similar to those ofAroclor 1 2 4 2? A. Q. Yes. Did they have ---------- were they both liquids at room temperature? A. Q. Yes. Did they have similar dielectric properties? JUDY COMP & ASSOCIATES WATER PCB-SD0000042447 1 '2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 408 A. Ye s . Q. Did they 'have similar vapor points? A. Ye s . Q. By "similar," I mean within five degrees centigrade? A. I don't know that specifically. I'd have to look it up. Q. Did they have similar viscosity? A. Q. Ye s . Did they have similar fire resistant . properties? A. Q. Yes. Were they similar in terms of stability A. Q. A. Q. Yes. ---------- chemical stability? Were they both approximately equally resistant to breakdown in the environment? I take that back. The image I'm thinking of is ---------- you mentioned before that the drum of Aroclor 1242 will last for 150 years in the drum. Is the same true of MCS 1016? Both of those materials are chemically stabile. I'm going to show you a document marked JUDY COMP & ASSOCIATES WATER PCB-SD0000042448 1 '2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 409 as Exhibit ---------- MR. KASHANI: what'snext? (Thereupon the Court Reporter marked the pertinent document as PLAINTIFF'S EXHIBIT NUMBER 360-A) Q. Exhibit 360. By the way, did you ever meet Bill Papageorge? A. Q. Yes. William Papageorge? Do you remember having any discussions with him on the biodegradabi1ity of Aroclors? A. Not specifically. Q. Do you remember generally any such discussions? A . Yes. Q. Do you remember when those occurred? A. No, sir. Q. Would you have a continuous discussion with him, frequent discussions, or -------------- A. Whenever he requested discussions we would have them. And they would have occurred during my employment with Monsanto. Q. Were they on the order of once a month, once a week? The reason I asked that, if JUDY COMP & ASSOCIATES WATER PCB-SD0000042449 1 -2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 410 A. Q you talked to him every day, I'm obviously not going to ask you what you said in every conversation. But if you talked t o him once a year , then w e might be able t o pinpoint that time. It was more frequently than once a year and not a s frequently as daily, and there's n o question about that. It was intermediate frequency in terms of how _ often Bill and I got together. Did you want me to read this first before I do anything or not? The only thing I'm going to refer to in this Exhibit going back to Exhibit 360, is on page for ---------- that's numbered page TRAN 036314, under the heading "MCS 1016. Going to the last sentence it reads, "Since all the electrical properties of MCS are indistinguishable from those of Aroclor 1242 and there are only minor differences in other properties, comma, this fluid should be a direct substitute for Aroclor 1242 industry with no in the capacitor capacitor design ' VK change or processing changes needed." Let me JUDY COMP & ASSOCIATES WATER PCB-SD0000042450 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 411 refer to just the first part of that sentence which is, "Since all the electrical properties of MCS are indistinguishable from those of Aroclor 1242 and there are only minor differences in other properties ----------". If we assume that MCS here is referring to MCS 1016, is that a correct statement, to your knowledge? ... A. If we assume that MCS is referring to MCS 1016, yes. Q. Thank you. What does the term "chlorinated polyphenyl" mean? Polyphenyl A. ----------p - o - 1 - y - p - h - e - n - y - 1 . What it would mean to me is ---------- is it's obviously not correct IUPAC terminology and things of that sort. I mean, it's a heavy duty subverted chemical term, I would say, you know. Slang. It's chemical slang ---------- Q. Chemical slang, okay. A. ---------- would be the best way I could describe that. And ---------- Q. You mean it's not a proper reference for anything? JUDY COMP & ASSOCIATES WATER PCB-SD0000042451 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 412 A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. It's not a precise way to communicate any information from a chemical viewpoint. Okay. It's slang. And so you've got to be probably part of the hood wherever that came from to understand what it meant. What i t would mean to me , i f you asked me , and you are asking me , i s i t would mean t o me benzene or p h e n t y 1 -- - phenyj. groups that were connected that had chlorines on ---------- associated with them. Poly---------Polyphenyl ---------- p-h ---------- Polyphenyl. "Polyphenyl" would mean more than one ----------p-h-e-n-y-1 ---------- group, okay. And for them to be in an assemblage or a molecule, they would have to be bonded ---------- chemically bonded together, so it could be a biphenyl, it could be a terphenyl, could be a quatripheny1, could be a pentaphenyl, a hexaphenyl, hepta and so on, and ---------- chlorinated it says? Chlorinated. "Chlorinated" means that they've had chlorine reacted with them so that they JUDY COMP & ASSOCIATES WATER PCB-SD0000042452 1 '2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 413 have chlorine bonded to it Q. So, it could mean a lot of different substances? A . You bet. Q. A. There's really no way to tell? Ad infinitum. Q. So, without more information,there's no A. way to tell what it's referring to? Correct. Specifically. MR . ZIMMER: Perhaps the Exhibit that you have in mind. MR . KASHANI: Exhibit. I don't have any A. Well, it's likechlorinated hydrocarbons. There are entities which will be considered chlorinated hydrocarbons that haven't even been thought of or ever Q. produced. So, is"chlorinated hydrocarbon" the same sort of terminology in that it could mean a lot of different things, and it's impossible to tell what it means? A. Without further specification, yes. Q. So does the same go for chlorinated aromatic hydrocarbon? JUDY COMP & ASSOCIATES WATER PCB-SD0000042453 1 '2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 414 A. Q A. Chlorinated aromatic ---------- yes. So "chlorinated aromatic hydrocarbon" is another term which can mean a lot of different things, and there's no way to tell what it means without more information? Well, no, you can ----------- MR. ZIMMER: It calls for speculation as to the "no way to tell" part. MR. KASHANI: Well, can you tell without more information what substance I'm referring to when I use the term "chlorinated aromatic hydrocarbon"? MR. ZIMMER: In which context, just me ntioning it out loud? MR. KASHANI: I'm saying it right now, ye s. MR. ZIMMER: Okay, as opposed to in a letter, for example, or on a labe1? MR. KASHANI You're creating a context here I'm just asking for a definition . JUDY COMP & ASSOCIATES WATER PCB-SD0000042454 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 415 A. Q. A. MR. ZIMMER: I am just asking if there is a context. As long as you tell me, it's just when you say the term out loud, that's what I want to know. Okay. "Chlorinated aromatic hydrocarbons" means something to me. What do they mean? It's like "aliphatic hydrocarbons" wouId have a meaning to me, or "aromatic hydrocarbons" would have a meaning to me. And what it means is is a class of compounds, chlorinated aromatic hydrocarbons. "Chlorinated" would mean that there would be chlorine, and that the chlorine had been reacted with it because it was chlorinated, okay. So I would know that there was chlorine associated with what I'm talking about here, and that it's a reacted ---------- it's a bonded chlorine, not chlorine gas that's sitting inside this bottle or something like that that. "Aromatic" refers to the it's an unsaturated carbon ring fact ' V' structure. And it could be as few as JUDY COMP & ASSOCIATES WATER PCB-SD0000042455 1 '2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 416 three carbons because that's all that's required to make a ring is three carbons. That's the minimum. And it could be as many as ---------- well, I've seen publications where there were literally hundreds of carbons on that form a ring structure ----------- decihedral whatevers, okay. So the aromatic portion of it, that's what that would refer to me. What's the other . Q. part? Hydrocarbon. A. "Hydrocarbon" would meanhydrogen and carbonl okay. So that would tell me that we're dealing with a class of compounds that have those properties that I just talked about. They also have other things associated with them, but I need to know in what context you are using that terminology to discern that. Q. Could chlorinated aromatic hydrocarbon refer to DDT? A. Q. Ye s . Could it refer to DDE? A. Q. Yes. You mentioned that itcould refer to JUDY COMP & ASSOCIATES WATER PCB-SD0000042456 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 417 compounds with three carbons in a ring? A. Correct. Q. How many carbons are in a ring in PCBs? A. Twelve. Well, there's ----------- Q. There's ----------- A. ---------- six in two rings, but there's twelve in the biphenyl structure. But there's two rings, so there's six in each ring. Q. What about the term "chlorobiphenyl" A. P-h-e-n-y-1? Q. A. Yes, y-1 . Okay. "Chlorobiphenyl" means chlorinated biphenyls to me, or, you know ---------- Q. A. So that refers to ---------Chlo ----------- chlorobiphenyl? Q. Chlorobiphenyl. One word. . A. No " S"? Q. A. No "S" and one word. Well, "chlorobiphenyl" would mean to me just monoch1orobipheny1. Q. Meaning a PCB with one chlorine atom? A. Correct. If you said "chlorobiphenyls", multiple, then you might have some ----------- then that could be and has been at some point in time used by certain people ---------- JUDY COMP & ASSOCIATES WATER PCB-SD0000042457 1 '2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 418 some people to talk about the whole ball Q. of wax. Is "chlorobiphenyl" a common term used to A. refer to PCBs? I don't use it commonly, and I've talked a lot about PCBs over the years, so I wouldn't say it's common. Q A. You mentioned earlier IUPAC? Uh- huh (affirmative). Q A. I s that I-U-P-A-C? 11 could be. I always forget . It's the International Congress of suchand such and all that kind of stuff. It's an organization that's in charge of nomenclature for chemistry and makes recommendations in terms of what's the appropriate nomenclature. Q. Does IUPAC make recommendations as to what is the appropriate name to use to refer to compounds? A. Q. Yes. And when you say that "chlorinated polyphenyl" is not an IUPAC term do you mean that is not a term that IUPAC has recommended to use? JUDY COMP & ASSOCIATES WATER PCB-SD0000042458 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 419 A It's not the o fficial terminology that's recommended. It's just like if your name is David and I call you "Davey," "Davey is not officia 1, "David" is, but you can still be calle d "Davey." Do you see what I'm saying? Q But----------okay. "Polychlorinated" ---------- A Whatever that last term you said ---------- Q Poly---------- A -- i s 1 i k e a nickname Q But it '1 s not a precise A That ' s c o r r e c t MR. KASHANI: Let's take a break. (OFF RECORD) (While off record the Court Reporter marked the pertinent document as PLAINTIFF'S EXHIBIT NUMBER 3 61-A) Q Let me show you another Exhibit. It's Exhibit 261. A (Witness peruses document). Okay. Q Dr. Tucker, do you recognize the format of Exhibit 361? A No, sir. Q Is that a carbon copy of the format used JUDY COMP & ASSOCIATES WATER PCB-SD0000042459 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 420 A. Q. A. Q. A. Q Q. Q. A. Q. A. Q. in Exhibit 360? MR. ZIMMER: Calls for speculation. It's certainly not a carbon co p y---------- Well, it's not ---------- ---------- of the format used in 360 or the page there. I don't know. I don't recognize this format because it's obviously incomplete or if it's not incomplete, then the people who do use it are . well-schooled in what it means. I see. This is a form we received from Monsanto. Okay. I'm not trying to hide anything from you MR. ZIMMER: No , I----------it just looks like the whole ---------- we 11---------- This is a document we received from them. MR. ZIMMER: Fine. Answer. Do you recognize the document? Not specifically, no. Do you remember in general the topics that are discussed in the memo? Yes. And I should clarify, we're -y * referring to Exhibit 361, not 360. JUDY COMP & ASSOCIATES WATER PCB-SD0000042460 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 421 A. Q. Okay. Looking at the first paragraph, it says, "I would like to set a target date of Monday, February 8, to have a written document which could help answer G.E.'s questions on MCS 1016, it's degradation rate; and why MCS 1016 is a better fluid in the environment than Aroclor 1242 and Aroclor 1254." Do you recall that . request? A. Not specifically. Q. Do you recall generally preparing a document for the use of General Electric or any other customer on MCS 1016? A. Not specifically for General Electric or for the use of any other customer. I've prepared documents like that, though. Q. Documents explaining ---------- and I'm going to - quote from the memo, "why MCS 1016 is a better fluid in the environment than Aroclor 1242"? A. Q. Ye s . Do you recall providing such a document to General Electric? A. No. JUDY COMP & ASSOCIATES WATER PCB-SD0000042461 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 422 Q. Do you recall if any such documents that you prepared on MCS 1016 were provided to General Electric? A. No . Q. Do you recall if they were provided to any other customers? A . No . Q. Do you recall if General Electric ever purchased any MCS 1016? ... A. No . Q. Do you recall if Monsanto offered to sell MCS 1016 to General Electric or any other customer? A . No . Q. Do you recall if Monsanto ever started producing MCS 1016 in commercial quantities? A. Nope. Q. Let me refer you back to Exhibit 366. It's a document we discussed earlier that refers to, among other things, MCS 1016. Is this one of the documents that appears to be ---------- is this the same category of documents that is being discussed in Exhibit 361? JUDY COMP & ASSOCIATES WATER PCB-SD0000042462 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 423 A. Q. A. Q. A. A. Q. A. Q. A. Q MR. ZIMMER: Calls for speculation. I don't understand the question. You said you had a general recollection of preparing documents concerning MCS 1016 and specifically, as I quoted, why MCS 1016 is a better fluid in the environment than Aroclor 1242. Is Exhibit 330 ^-- is that 336? Uh-huh (affirmative). Yes. . Is Exhibit 336 one of that category of documents? Yes. I understand the question. Excellent. MR. ZIMMER: That was a different one than the first one. It doesn't make any difference. I actually unders food that, and I ' m not being facetious . It was comfor table. So, the answer to my question i s "yes"? Yes. Do you remember if you prepared Exhibit 336 in response to Exhibit 361? No . Do you remember if Exhibit 336 o r any information in it was ever provided to JUDY COMP & ASSOCIATES WATER PCB-SD0000042463 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 424 any of Monsanto's customers? A. No . Q. Okay. Dr. Tucker, how long were you employed by Monsanto? A. I believe my tenure at Monsanto was either 1967 or 1968 through 1978, so, ten or eleven years. Q. And you earlier mentioned that at some point, about three years after you .. started work you became a group leader? Was that the term you used? A. Ye s . Q. And how long were you a group leader? A. I don't recall exactly without reviewing my records. I have records that I can review. Not with me, but I have records. I don't recall. Q. Do you recall your next position after being a group leader? A. I think it was Senior Research Specialist or something like that. Q. Do you recall approximately when you achieved that position? A . No , sir Q And did JUDY COMP & ASSOCIATES WATER PCB-SD0000042464 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 425 one? A Not that I recall at this point, no. Q And when did you leave Monsanto? A I think I left Monsanto in ---------- it must have been 1978 or 1977. Q Since you have left Monsanto, have you ever done any consulting work? We discussed yesterday in the context of lawsuits, but have you done any consulting work involving PCBs or- contamination with PCBs since you left Monsanto? A No . Q Have you discussed this deposition or this case with anyone other than your counsel prior to this deposition? A No . Q Are you being compensated in any way for your time spent either preparing or giving this deposition? A No . Q Okay. MR. KASHANI: Thank you very much. Thank you for your time. Doctor. (OFF RECORD) JUDY COMP & ASSOCIATES WATER PCB-SD0000042465 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 426 MR. KASHANI: The parties have stipulated that the Court Reporter will prepare a copy of the transcript, the original transcript, and will send the original to Dr. Tucker or his counsel, depending on what they specify. After you mail the transcript, Dr. Tucker will have thirty days to review it and make any corrections and get those corrections back to the Court Reporter. And also Dr. Tucker will have thirty days to sign the deposition transcript. But if Dr. Tucker does not make any corrections or does not sign the transcript, then the uncorrected and/or unsigned transcript can be used for all purposes the same as a signed and/or transcript. So r Counsel? MR. ZIMMER: Well said. MR. KASHANI: Thank you. (DEPOSITION CONCLUDED) JUDY COMP & ASSOCIATES WATER PCB-SD0000042466 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 427 SIGNATURE PAGE (SIGNATURE NOT WAIVED) DEPOSITION OF E. SCOTT TUCKER, Ph.D E. Scott Tucker, Ph.D Sworn to and subscribed to before me this ____ day of______________________________________, 1 9 92. Notary Public for South Carolina My Commission Expires: (SEAL) JUDY COMP & ASSOCIATES WATER PCB-SD0000042467 1 '2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 428 STATE OF SOUTH CAROLINA) ' ) CERTIFICATE COUNTY OF GREENVILLE ) I, BETH BYCE, a Notary Public, duly commissioned and qualified in and for the State of South Carolina, do hereby certify, that the deposition of E. Scott Tucker, Ph.D, called by the Plaintiff, was taken before me at 2:00 p.m. on June 23rd, 1992, and at 9:10 a.m. on June 24th, 1992; that said Witness was duly sworn; that his deposition testimony was transcribed under my direction, and that this deposition is a true record of said testimony; I further certify that I am not of kin or counsel to the parties in this case, am not in the regular employ of counsel for any of said parties, nor am I interested in the results of this case. IN WITNESS WHEREOF, I have hereunto set my hand and affixed my official seal this ------------------ day of -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------, 1992. Notary Public for South Carolina My commission Expires: 10-28-01 JUDY COMP & ASSOCIATES WATER PCB-SD0000042468