Document evqzg8MyV1d5mpBEQke51Qr3e

1 Cerro Copper Products, Co. 2 vs. 3 Monsanto Company 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 VOLUME I 14 15 Deposition of William B. Papageorge 16 Taken October 20, 1994 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Wm. Papageorge, 10/20/94 Page 1 WATER PCB-SD0000048765 2 1 IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT 2 SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF ILLINOIS 3 4 CERRO COPPER PRODUCTS, CO., 5 6 Plaintiff, 7 8 vs. NO. 92-CV-204-WDS 9 10 MONSANTO COMPANY, 11 12 Defendant. 13 14 Deposition of WILLIAM B. PAPAGEORGE, taken 15 on behalf ofthe Plaintiff, at the offices of 16 Cobum & Croft, One Mercantile Center, 17 Suite 2900, in the City of St. Louis, State of 18 Missouri, on the 20th day of October, 1994, 19 before Tracey Balsitis, Registered 20 Professional Reporter and Notary Public. 21 22 23 24 25 Wm. Papageorge, 10/20/94 Page 2 WATER PCB-SD0000048766 3 1 APPEARANCES OF COUNSEL: 2 3 FOR THE PLAINTIFF: Mr. Richard F. Ricci Lowenstein, Sandler, Kohl, Fisher & Boylan 65 Livingston Avenue Roseland, New Jersey 07068-1791 9 FOR THE DEFENDANT: 10 Mr. Joseph G. Nassif 11 Cobum & Croft 12 One Mercantile Center - Suite 2900 13 St. Louis, Missouri 63101 14 15 ............... 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Wm. Papageorge, 10/20/94 Page 3 WATER PCB-SD0000048767 4 1 INDEX 2 PAGE 3 Examination by Mr. Ricci 5 4 5 6 EXHIBITS 7 8 Plaintiffs Deposition Exhibit 1 60 9 Plaintiffs Deposition Exhibit 2 155 10 Plaintiffs Deposition Exhibit 3 162 11 Plaintiffs Deposition Exhibit 4 175 12 Plaintiffs Deposition Exhibit 5 176 13 Plaintiffs Deposition Exhibit 6 179 14 Plaintiffs Deposition Exhibit 7 181 15 Plaintiffs Deposition Exhibit 8 190 16 Plaintiffs Deposition Exhibit 9 194 17 Plaintiffs Deposition Exhibit 10 199 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Wm. Papageorge, 10/20/94 Page 4 WATER PCB-SD0000048768 5 1 WILLIAM B. PAPAGEORGE 2 of lawful age, having been first duly sworn to 3 testify the truth, the whole truth, and 4 nothing but the truth in the case aforesaid, 5 deposes and says in reply to oral 6 interrogatories propounded as follows, to-wit: 7 EXAMINATION 8 QUESTIONS BY MR. RICCI: 9 Q Good morning, Mr. Papageorge. 10 A Good morning. 11 Q My name is Rich Ricci, and I represent 12 Cerro Copper Products Company in the case 13 styled Cerro Copper Products Company versus 14 Monsanto. We are going to be taking your 15 deposition here today, and I'm going to be 16 asking you a series of questions, and you are 17 going to be hopefully giving me answers to the 18 best of your ability. And our court reporter 19 here is going to be taking down the answers. 20 Although this is an informal setting, 21 you are under oath, and your answers and my 22 questions will be bound in a printed 23 transcript, and that transcript can be used at 24 the trial of this matter so that your 25 testimony here today is as given in Court, and Wm. Papageorge, 10/20/94 Page 5 WATER PCB-SD0000048769 6 1 I just want you to be aware of that. 2 In the course of the deposition, if I 3 ask you a question that you don't understand, 4 I would appreciate it if you tell me that you 5 don't understand it, and I will try to 6 rephrase it in a way that it will become 7 understandable to you. If I ask you a 8 question and you answer it, then I'm going to 9 assume that you understood the question and 10 answered it as asked. 11 In addition, I will warn you that I'm 12 not an engineer or a scientist or a chemist, 13 and so as a result, my questions may at times 14 be inartfully drawn or inappropriately use 15 scientific or technical terms. If I do that 16 and you pick it up, please feel free to point 17 that out to me, and again we can try and work 18 through the difficulties. 19 It will be helpful if you let me 20 finish my questions before you give your 21 answers, and I will in turn try to let you 22 finish your answers before I ask the next 23 question. Our court reporter can only take 24 down one at a time, and so we have to try to 25 avoid stepping on each other's lines. Wm. Papageorge, 10/20/94 Page 6 WATER PCB-SD0000048770 7 1 If you need a break at any time, 2 please feel free to ask. It is not an 3 endurance contest, and I'm more than happy to 4 accommodate you. Do you have any questions 5 before we begin? 6 A Not so much a question, but when you 7 referred earlier to understanding the 8 question, it is possible that my understanding 9 may not match your intent, but I will give you 10 the answer based on my understanding. 11 Q Okay. And I will try to avoid asking 12 ambiguous questions. And if I do ask an 13 ambiguous question, I'm sure Mr. Nassif will 14 throw his two cents in, too. 15 A Very good. 16 Q Mr. Papageorge, are you on any 17 medication here that might in any way affect 18 your ability to testify? 19 A No. 20 Q Can you give me your home address, 21 please. 22 A 321 Pebble Valley Drive, St. Louis, 23 Missouri 63141-8039. 24 Q Are you currently employed by 25 Monsanto? Wm. Papageorge, 10/20/94 Page 7 WATER PCB-SD0000048771 8 1 A No. 2 Q Are you retired? 3 A Yes. 4 Q Who is your current employer, if any? 5 A I consider myself self-employed. 6 Q When did you retire? 7 A My last working day was December 31, 8 1986. 9 Q In your capacity as a self-employed 10 individual, do you do consulting work? Is 11 that a fair characterization? 12 A Yes. 13 Q Do you do any consulting work for 14 Monsanto currently? 15 A Not directly, no. 16 Q Indirectly? 17 A Yes. 18 Q How so? 19 A Through law firms. 20 Q Have you been retained by any law 21 firms with respect to the lawsuit that's 22 subject to this deposition? 23 A I honestly don't know. 24 MR. NASSIF: He hasn't, Rich. 25 Q (By Mr. Ricci) Are you being Wm. Papageorge, 10/20/94 Page 8 WATER PCB-SD0000048772 9 1 compensated for the time that you are spending 2 today being deposed? 3 A Not that I'm aware of, no. 4 Q In the course of your current self 5 employment, do you do consulting work in 6 matters other than those in which Monsanto is 7 involved? 8 A Occasionally. 9 Q Is that also for law firms for the 10 most part? 11 A No. 12 Q Who else have you done consulting work 13 for? 14 A A supplier of steel and a property 15 owner who wanted to sell some property, that 16 kind of thing. 17 Q Approximately how many hours a week do 18 you spend in this consulting business? 19 A I have never kept score. It is 20 difficult for me to estimate because some 21 months I don't spend any time at all and other 22 months I may spend as much as 40 or 50 hours, 23 so. 24 Q Let me see if I can rephrase the 25 question. And first let me ask you have you Wm. Papageorge, 10/20/94 Page 9 WATER PCB-SD0000048773 10 1 been engaged in this consulting since your 2 retirement from Monsanto? 3 A Yes. 4 Q Perhaps it would be easier for you to 5 estimate again to the best of your ability how 6 much time you spend in consulting work on a 7 yearly basis? 8 A This would be a very crude estimate. 9 About a hundred hours a year. 10 Q A hundred hours a year? 11 A Something like that. 12 Q Has that been fairly constant 13 throughout the course of your retirement? 14 A Like I say, I just have never sat down 15 and studied my records to come up with a good 16 answer. 17 Q Can you tell me what percentage of 18 your consulting work is spent on cases 19 involving Monsanto? 20 A About 90 to 95 percent. 21 Q In your consulting, do you charge on 22 an hourly basis? 23 A For which? It depends on the client. 24 Q For the work that you do involving 25 Monsanto, do you charge on an hourly basis? Wm. Papageorge, 10/20/94 Page 10 WATER PCB-SD0000048774 11 1 A I'm on a retainer. 2 Q Is your retainer with Monsanto or with 3 the law firms that you mentioned? 4 A With a law firm. 5 Q Is that Cobum & Croft? 6 A No. 7 Q Which law firm is that? 8 A Smith, Helms, Mulliss & Moore in 9 Greensboro, North Carolina. 10 Q Has your consulting pursuant to that 11 agreement been with respect to a specific 12 case? 13 A Not just one case, no. 14 Q A number of cases? 15 A Yes. 16 Q Are the cases related? 17 A Yes, they are. 18 Q What do those cases involve? 19 A Polychlorinated biphenyls. 20 Q I will predict that that term will 21 come up again in the course of this 22 deposition, and so can we understand that we 23 can refer to that as PCBs? 24 A Certainly. 25 Q Now, when you estimated that 90 to 95 Wm. Papageorge, 10/20/94 Page 11 WATER PCB-SD0000048775 12 1 percent of your consulting work involves 2 Monsanto, is that all in relation to the work 3 that you do with Smith, Helms, Mulliss & 4 Moore? 5 A No. There are other law firms. 6 Q You have retainer agreements with 7 other law firms? 8 A No. 9 Q Okay. Let's focus on the Smith, Helms 10 relationship first. What is the nature of 11 your retainer agreement? 12 A Oh, I don't recall the exact words, 13 but I am to be available for consultation 14 relating to PCBs and my past involvement, my 15 understanding ofthe issues relating to PCBs 16 for a period of time that runs roughly, quite 17 roughly, from the late '60s until the early 18 part of '76 or thereabouts. 19 Q What's the compensation arrangement 20 under that agreement? 21 A It is 8,500 a month. 22 Q And that compensationrate applies 23 whether you do no work or whether you work 300 24 hours a month? 25 A Correct. Wm. Papageorge, 10/20/94 Page 12 WATER PCB-SD0000048776 13 1 Q And is it your understanding that 2 ultimately the source of that compensation is 3 Monsanto? 4 A No. I have never questioned it. 5 Q Your checks -- I'm sorry. Go ahead. 6 A I have never questioned who the 7 ultimate payer is. 8 Q Your checks come from the law firm? 9 A Yes. 10 Q And you don't know whether the law 11 firm is reimbursed by Monsanto? 12 A I do not. 13 Q Are the cases that you are consulting 14 with Smith, Helms on personal injury cases? 15 A Well, some ofthem are allegations of 16 health problems relating to exposures. 17 Q Are there cases that you consult with 18 Smith, Helms on that relate to other than 19 allegations of health problems? 20 A Yes. 21 Q And what do those cases relate to? 22 A There are -- there were and -- there 23 were cases in which the parties claimed damage 24 to property. There were cases relating to 25 reimbursement for costs relating to cleanup, Wm. Papageorge, 10/20/94 Page 13 WATER PCB-SD0000048777 14 1 cases related to effect on dairy cattle. As 2 an example, there was a case relating to harm 3 to a mink fur farm. I'm sure that's not all 4 of them, but those are examples of the kinds 5 of things that have come up. 6 Q That's good. That gives me an idea of 7 what we are talking about. And those are all 8 cases in which Smith, Helms was involved? 9 A To some degree. 10 Q Did any of those cases involve 11 environment contamination in Anniston, 12 Alabama? 13 A Well, as I understand it, there is -- 14 at least there was a case that was discussed 15 with me. I don't know where it stands at the 16 moment. 17 Q Relating to contamination in Anniston? 18 A In Anniston, yes. 19 Q Do you know if that case is still 20 pending? 21 A I do not. 22 Q Is that a case that Smith, Helms was 23 involved with? 24 A To a degree again, yes. 25 Q Do you know who the Plaintiff was in Wm. Papageorge, 10/20/94 Page 14 WATER PCB-SD0000048778 15 1 that case? 2 A I'm under an impression it was a class 3 action type case. 4 Q Are there other law firms besides 5 Smith, Helms that you consult with relating to 6 cases involving Monsanto? 7 A Yes. 8 Q How many law firms? 9 A I have no idea. 10 Q More than a hundred? 11 A Oh, no. No. I don't know. A dozen 12 or so. 13 Q Are they all over the country? 14 A Yes. 15 Q Any here in St. Louis? 16 A Yes. 17 Q Which firms in St. Louis? 18 A The one that comes to mind is Husch, 19 Eppenberger. 20 Q Do you have a retainer agreement with 21 Husch & Eppenberger? 22 A No. 23 Q Are you compensated on an hourly basis 24 when you work for Husch & Eppenberger? 25 A No. Wm. Papageorge, 10/20/94 Page 15 WATER PCB-SD0000048779 16 1 Q How are you compensated? 2 A Through the Smith, Helms. 3 Q Do you work with any law firms related 4 to cases involving Monsanto where you are 5 compensated other than through Smith, Helms? 6 A No. 7 Q Is it fair to say then that all of the 8 consulting work that you do in cases involving 9 Monsanto are encompassed or compensated 10 through your retainer agreement with Smith, 11 Helms? 12 A Yes. 13 Q What steps, if any, did you take to 14 prepare for your deposition here today? And 15 let me caution you before you answer this 16 question that I am not expecting you to relate 17 to me conversations that you had with your 18 attorney. And I will ask you initially did 19 you have any conversations with the attorneys 20 from Monsanto in this case? 21 A Yes. 22 Q Other than those conversations, what 23 did you do, if anything, to prepare for your 24 deposition today? 25 A I did nothing else. Wm. Papageorge, 10/20/94 Page 16 WATER PCB-SD0000048780 17 1 Q You didn't review any documents? 2 A No. 3 Q Did you consult with any present or 4 former Monsanto employees? 5 A No. 6 Q Have you spoken to anybody else who 7 has been deposed in this matter? 8 A No. 9 Q Was it Mr. Nassif that you met with? 10 A Yes. 11 Q When did you meet with Mr. Nassif? 12 A Yesterday. 13 Q And approximately how long did that 14 meeting last? 15 A From about 10:00 in the morning until 16 about 4:30 or so in the afternoon with lunch 17 time included and breaks. 18 Q Mr. Papageorge, can you give me your 19 educational background post high school? 20 A I attended Washington University. 21 Q Here in St. Louis? 22 A In St. Louis and received a Bachelor 23 of Science degree in chemical engineering in 24 1943. I also attended the same school and 25 received a Master of Science degree in Wm. Papageorge, 10/20/94 Page 17 WATER PCB-SD0000048781 18 1 chemical engineering in 1947. Between the 2 period 1947 and '51,1 received credits at the 3 then Oklahoma A & M University toward a Doctor 4 of Science degree in chemical engineering. I 5 did not complete that full course there. 6 Q I'm sorry. What years were you taking 7 credits towards a Ph.D.? 8 A '47 to'51. 9 Q Have you had any other formal 10 education? 11 A Well, I have had courses that I 12 suggest might be considered formal. I 13 attended classes at Washington University, 14 business courses. There were a series, as I 15 remember, of weekends. Thursday, Friday, 16 Saturday type. I attended about four of those 17 weekend courses. That's in a university 18 setting. 19 Q But not working toward a degree of any 20 kind? 21 A No. No. Those were sort of exposing 22 me to new fields other than engineering. 23 There were other seminars and all, but they 24 were not conducted by any universities, so I'm 25 not including those. Wm. Papageorge, 10/20/94 Page 18 WATER PCB-SD0000048782 19 1 Q Are there any seminars that you recall 2 of a week or more duration? 3 A Yes. 4 Q And approximately how many? 5 A Two come to mind immediately, and I 6 suspect that there were at least two more, but 7 I don't remember them specifically. 8 Q Why don't you tell me about the two 9 that you do recall? 10 A The American Management Association 11 had a course, business oriented type subjects. 12 Q Okay. 13 A That, as I recall, involved several 14 week-long sessions about a month apart for a 15 six-month period or so in New York, and I 16 attended a course a week and would come back 17 and then repeat it for about six months or so. 18 Q And these are management type courses? 19 A Management type, yes. 20 Q And what's the other one that you 21 recall? 22 A The U.S. Chamber of Commerce. 23 Q Was that also a management? 24 A Management type. And it was a little 25 more oriented to governmental type exposures. Wm. Papageorge, 10/20/94 Page 19 WATER PCB-SD0000048783 20 1 Also in the Washington D. C. area. 2 Q Have you served in the military? 3 A Yes. 4 Q When was that? 5 A From 1943 to 1947. 6 Q Which branch of the service were you 7 in? 8 A Army. 9 Q What were your duties when you were in 10 the army? 11 A Of course it varied. I went in as a 12 private and came out a captain. It was rather 13 varied. And I started out in the artillery, 14 went through infantry and ended up in 15 engineering. 16 Q You were honorably discharged? 17 A Yes. 18 Q So if I'm getting the sequence right, 19 you received your BS in '43 and then went into 20 the military? 21 A Well, I was in the military while I 22 was earning my last year of the BS. Then I 23 went into active duty in '43. 24 Q And you were in active duty from '43 25 to '47? Wm. Papageorge, 10/20/94 Page 20 WATER PCB-SD0000048784 21 1 A No. '43 to'46. I misled you there. 2 Yes. '46. 3 Q Because then you got your MS in'47? 4 A In the period of '46 to '47, yes. 5 Q So that was after you got out of the 6 army that you went back to college? 7 A Yes. 8 Q Mr. Papageorge, can I ask you how old 9 you are? 10 A 72. 11 Q Can you trace for me your employment 12 history starting at the time that you -- well, 13 I guess starting with your first full-time job 14 after the military? 15 A Okay. My first full-time job would 16 then be my working with Phillips Petroleum 17 Company in Bartlesville, Oklahoma, from '47 to 18 '51. 19 Q What was your position there? 20 A Two different assignments. I started 21 out as a research engineer working with oil 22 wells and oil production in the field. And 23 then I spent two years as a design engineer in 24 the company's refining department. 25 Q Where did you go from Phillips Wm. Papageorge, 10/20/94 Page 21 WATER PCB-SD0000048785 22 1 Petroleum? 2 A I then joined Monsanto Company in 3 1951. 4 Q Why did you leave Phillips Petroleum? 5 A I guess it is the looking for a 6 greener pastures approach is all I can 7 remember. 8 Q What was the first position that you 9 held with Monsanto? 10 A As I remember, the title was process 11 engineer. It was in the design department 12 where I was assigned the task of designing 13 equipment used for manufacturing of a 14 chemical. 15 Q Did you hire into a specific plant at 16 Monsanto? 17 A Yes. 18 Q Which plant was that? 19 A It is the one called the J. F. Queeny 20 plant in St. Louis. 21 Q And what was the chemical that you 22 were designing equipment for the manufacture 23 of? 24 A Phthalic anhydride. 25 Q How long were you involved -- let me Wm. Papageorge, 10/20/94 Page 22 WATER PCB-SD0000048786 23 1 withdraw that. When you first hired in with 2 Monsanto, were your duties related 3 specifically to designing for the manufacture 4 of that chemical? 5 A Yes. 6 Q How long did that position last? 7 A As I remember, about three years 8 total. That's design and what we called at 9 the time demonstration. In other words, when 10 it was installed I had to go out and 11 demonstrate that it could do what I said it 12 would do. 13 Q Was this a new product for the Queeny 14 plant? 15 A No. It was a new process for making 16 an old product. 17 Q So you were involved from 18 approximately '51 to '54 in the phthalic 19 anhydride project? 20 A Yes. 21 Q What was the next position that you 22 had with Monsanto? 23 A I was assigned as an assistant 24 supervisor in the production unit that made 25 chemicals that we referred to at Monsanto as Wm. Papageorge, 10/20/94 Page 23 WATER PCB-SD0000048787 24 1 plasticizers. These are chemicals that are 2 added to plastics to give them desirable 3 properties such as flexibility. 4 Q How long did you hold that position? 5 A Keep in mind these are estimates at 6 this point in time. That's a long time ago. 7 Q I understand that. 8 A I think I had that job for about a 9 year to two years, something like that. 10 Q So somewhere around '55 or '57? 11 A Yes, something like that. 12 Q Was that also atthe Queeny plant? 13 A Yes. 14 Q Were any ofthe plasticizers that you 15 were involved with PCB containing? 16 A No. 17 Q What were your duties and 18 responsibilities as an assistant supervisor? 19 A Well, I was to help the supervisor of 20 that operation to determine whether the 21 products produced met the specifications and 22 that the amounts ofthe products produced were 23 as scheduled, the amount of usable product was 24 as designed by the research people. In other 25 words, did we get proper yields? In other Wm. Papageorge, 10/20/94 Page 24 WATER PCB-SD0000048788 25 1 words, did we waste our raw material or was it 2 made into useful product? 3 And I had to assist him also in making 4 sure that all of this was done safely. That's 5 all that comes to mind at the moment. 6 Q Were there any responsibilities in 7 that position relating to the extent to which 8 the production process might contribute to 9 water pollution? 10 A No. 11 Q Were there others at the Queeny plant 12 at that time who were responsible for whether 13 various production processes contributed to 14 water pollution? 15 A At that point in time I don't recall 16 anyone having that specific assignment. 17 Q Do you know whether at that point in 18 time Monsanto had any positions either at the 19 plant level or at the corporate level whose 20 responsibility related to pollution control? 21 A I don't remember anyone. 22 Q What was the next position that you 23 held at Monsanto after assistant supervisor in 24 the plasticizers? 25 A I was made supervisor of another Wm. Papageorge, 10/20/94 Page 25 WATER PCB-SD0000048789 26 1 production unit. 2 Q Okay. And we are talking about '55 or 3 '56, in that range? 4 A Somewhere in there, yes, sir. 5 Q How long did you hold this supervisor 6 position? 7 A Again, about a year, year and a half, 8 two. 9 Q So we are talking about '55 or '56 to 10 '57 or'58? 11 A Yes. Somewhere in there. 12 Q What were you supervisor of? 13 A This unit produced a group of similar 14 chemicals that were used eventually as rubber 15 additives. 16 Q Do you recall the chemical name ofthe 17 rubber additives? 18 A Well, I don't want to mislead you. 19 These were raw materials in turn processed 20 further to make the rubber additives. The 21 materials I was involved with were the 22 nitrochlorobenzenes. 23 Q So you were involved in the production 24 of nitrochlorobenzene which was used as a raw 25 material in the production of rubber Wm. Papageorge, 10/20/94 Page 26 WATER PCB-SD0000048790 27 1 additives? 2 A Correct. 3 Q And this was at Queeny? 4 A Yes. 5 Q And the rubber additives production 6 was also at Queeny? 7 A A minor part was. Most of it was 8 across the river in Sauget, Illinois. 9 Q That would be at the Krummrich plant? 10 A Krummrich plant. 11 Q Let me go back a second to your work 12 as assistant supervisor in the plasticizers. 13 What was the chemical name of the material 14 that you were producing in that department? 15 A It was a whole family of phthalate 16 esters. 17 Q What were the raw materials used in 18 the production of nitrochlorobenzenes at the 19 Queeny plant during the time that you were 20 supervisor? 21 A I would receive chlorinated benzene, 22 and the unit that I was responsible for would 23 add the nitrate to produce the 24 nitrochlorobenzene. 25 Q The chlorinated benzene raw material, Wm. Papageorge, 10/20/94 Page 27 WATER PCB-SD0000048791 28 1 was that monochlorobenzene or dichlorobenzene 2 or some other compound? 3 A It was several of them depending on 4 which of the nitrochlorobenzenes we were asked 5 to produced. Some ofthem were dichloros and 6 some were tris and monos. 7 Q So I'm sorry. I didn't quite 8 understand your last answer. You were 9 producing monochloro -- I'm sorry. Let me go 10 back a second. 11 Can I understand from your last answer 12 that depending upon which nitrochlorobenzenes 13 you were producing, you could be receiving or 14 using monochlorobenzene, dichlorobenzene or 15 trichlorobenzene as a raw material? 16 A Correct. 17 MR. NASSIF: Producing monochloro, 18 dichloro and trichloro as opposed to receiving 19 or using. 20 MR. RICCI: I don't think that's 21 correct, but I will let the witness answer. 22 A No. I was producing the nitrated 23 version of the mono, di and trichlorobenzenes. 24 Q (By Mr. Ricci) Right. And so you 25 were using the unnitrated chlorinated benzenes Wm. Papageorge, 10/20/94 Page 28 WATER PCB-SD0000048792 29 1 as raw materials? 2 A Correct. 3 Q Did you produce the unnitrated 4 chlorinated benzenes? 5 A No. 6 Q You received them as raw materials? 7 A Correct. 8 Q Were those chlorinated benzene 9 compounds manufactured at Queeny? 10 A No. 11 Q Where were they manufactured? 12 A Krummrich plant. 13 Q So it was your understanding that they 14 manufactured monochlorobenzene, 15 dichlorobenzene and trichlorobenzene at 16 Krummrich? 17 A Yes. 18 Q Do you know if they manufactured 19 tetrachlorobenzene at Krummrich? 20 A Yes. 21 Q That question was ambiguous so I'm 22 going to ask did they manufacture 23 tetrachlorobenzene at Krummrich? 24 MR. NASSIF: Objection. Asked and 25 answered. Wm. Papageorge, 10/20/94 Page 29 WATER PCB-SD0000048793 30 1 A Yes. 2 Q (By Mr. Ricci) Thank you. 3 MR. RICCI: Offthe record. 4 (Discussion off the record) 5 Q (By Mr. Ricci) Do you know -- let me 6 withdraw that. Did they manufacture 7 nitrochlorobenzenes at the Krummrich plant? 8 A I don't know. 9 Q Can you give me a general description 10 of the manufacturing process for 11 nitrochlorobenzenes? 12 A It would be very general because I 13 don't recall the specifics. We just -- as I 14 remember, we would just mix the chlorinated 15 benzene with nitric acid, and I have forgotten 16 all the refining steps that follow, but the 17 net result is that the nitrogen oxide attaches 18 itself to this benzene molecule to form the 19 nitro version of the chlorinated benzene. 20 Q Were there any by-products in the 21 production ofthe nitrochlorobenzenes? 22 A If I understand the meaning of 23 by-products, I'm assuming you are talking 24 about materials that are useful and can be 25 sold as a product? Wm. Papageorge, 10/20/94 Page 30 WATER PCB-SD0000048794 31 1 Q Okay. Let me clarify. I'm not 2 necessarily talking about materials that are 3 useful. I'm just talking about any materials 4 other than the nitrochlorobenzenes that are 5 produced in the process of manufacturing the 6 nitrochlorobenzenes, whether they be useful or 7 not? 8 A There were waste materials produced, 9 yes. 10 Q What were the waste materials? 11 A It is a tarry material that's the 12 residue of a distillation step. 13 QStill bottom? 14 A Still bottoms is a good word, yes. 15 Q Was there any by-product, gaseous 16 material, any hydrogen chloride or any other 17 gaseous material produced in this production 18 process? 19 A No. 20 Q Did the production process for 21 nitrochlorobenzenes result in any -- let me 22 withdraw that. Was the Queeny plant served by 23 a sewer system? 24 A Yes. 25 Q Were there any waste products or Wm. Papageorge, 10/20/94 Page 31 WATER PCB-SD0000048795 32 1 by-product in the manufacture of the 2 nitrochlorobenzenes that were discharged to 3 the sewers? 4 A Not directly. 5 Q Indirectly? 6 A Indirectly through washing the floors 7 down and so on. 8 Q The discharges to the sewers from the 9 washing of floors would then consist of 10 materials that had spilled or leaked on the 11 floors? 12 A Whenever it happened, yes. 13 Q There was no regular process 14 discharged into the sewers as part of that 15 manufacturing process? 16 A That is correct. 17 Q How were the still bottoms disposed 18 of? 19 A They were drained into steel drums and 20 hauled over to Monsanto's landfill in 21 Illinois. 22 Q Whereabouts in Illinois? 23 A Near the Sauget, Krummrich plant. 24 Q Was that a landfill owned by Monsanto? 25 A Yes. Wm. Papageorge, 10/20/94 Page 32 WATER PCB-SD0000048796 33 1 Q Do you know whether the still bottoms 2 were disposed of in any other landfills in 3 Sauget or the Village of Monsanto? 4 A Not to my knowledge. 5 Q What did those still bottoms consist 6 of? 7 A I don't know. 8 Q What was the next position that you 9 held with Monsanto after supervisor in the 10 nitrochlorobenzene manufacture? 11 A I was appointed as supervisor in the 12 plant maintenance and engineering department. 13 Q That was plant engineering and 14 maintenance? 15 A Yes. We didn't use quite that 16 expression, but that describes it well. 17 Q How long did you hold that position? 18 A A couple years again. 19 Q So we are getting into the early '60s 20 maybe, '57, '58 to '59 or '60? 21 A Yes. I would suggest that about'57, 22 '58 is close here. 23 Q To when you started or? 24 A When I was working as a maintenance 25 supervisor. Wm. Papageorge, 10/20/94 Page 33 WATER PCB-SD0000048797 34 1 Q This was at the Queeny plant as well? 2 A Yes. 3 Q What were your duties and 4 responsibilities in that position? 5 A I was responsible for the small new 6 equipment projects. 7 Q Anything else? 8 A That was it. 9 Q What do you mean when you say small 10 new equipment projects? 11 A These are projects that are small 12 enough to be handled by the plant personnel 13 and not contracted out to construction 14 contractors. 15 Examples include such things as 16 replacing a pipeline with a new pipeline, 17 increasing its size or replacing it because it 18 has a leak in it, or replacing a pump or 19 adding a new pump because the production 20 department needs a pump, installing a new tank 21 or a new instrument panel with a new 22 instrument in it. It was quite varied. 23 Q And it would include both regular 24 maintenance as well as addition of new 25 equipment? Wm. Papageorge, 10/20/94 Page 34 WATER PCB-SD0000048798 35 1 A Yes. I want to make a distinction. 2 The regular maintenance was done by other 3 teams. By regular, I gave you a poor example 4 when I said leaking pipeline. I would only 5 replace a leaking pipeline if it was going to 6 be enlarged at the same time and rerouted. 7 But a replacement like for like would be done 8 by the repair teams as distinguished from the 9 new project team. 10 Q And that was plant wide? 11 A Yes. 12 Q Were there any products manufactured 13 at the Queeny plant during this time period 14 when you were working there that were also 15 manufactured at Krummrich? 16 A I don't recall any that were common to 17 both plants. I just don't recall any. 18 Q You had mentioned in an earlier answer 19 that the still bottom residues from the 20 nitrochlorobenzene process were hauled to a 21 Monsanto landfdl in Sauget. Do you know when 22 that landfdl opened? 23 A I do not, no. 24 Q How long had they been manufacturing 25 nitrochlorobenzenes at Queeny prior to the Wm. Papageorge, 10/20/94 Page 35 WATER PCB-SD0000048799 36 1 time that you became supervisor in that 2 department? 3 A I don't know. 4 Q What was the next position that you 5 held with Monsanto after supervisor of new 6 equipment projects? 7 A I became the superintendent of the 8 maintenance engineering department. 9 Q And when was that? 10 A About the late'50s,'58,'59, 11 somewhere in there. 12 Q How long did you hold that position? 13 A Again, a couple years. 14 Q How did your duties and 15 responsibilities change in your move from 16 supervisor to superintendent? 17 A When I became superintendent, I was 18 responsible for the entire plant, which 19 included the group that I had, the new small 20 project group, as well as all of the 21 maintenance activities in the plant. 22 Q Was any of your work either as 23 supervisor of plant engineering or 24 superintendent related to environmental 25 controls or environmental control apparatus? Wm. Papageorge, 10/20/94 Page 36 WATER PCB-SD0000048800 37 1 A Can you help me with your definition 2 of environmental control apparatus? 3 Q Devices that were designed to reduce 4 or eliminate discharges either to the sewer 5 system, to other bodies of water or to the 6 air. 7 A Well, every process is designed with 8 that intent in mind using the available 9 technology at the time. There are scrubbers. 10 There are condensers that catch the fumes and 11 then bring them back into the system. So to a 12 degree some of it did involve that type of 13 apparatus. 14 Q Was there anyone at the Queeny plant 15 either during the time that you were 16 supervisor or superintendent in plant 17 engineering whose specific responsibility was 18 environmental controls as I have defined them 19 previously? 20 MR. NASSIF: I will object to the form 21 of the question. 22 MR. RICCI: Can I have a basis for 23 your objection? 24 MR. NASSIF: Yes. He already 25 testified he was responsible for environmental Wm. Papageorge, 10/20/94 Page 37 WATER PCB-SD0000048801 38 1 controls as you have defined them because he 2 had responsibility for condensers and these 3 other things, so everyone in his group was 4 responsible. 5 MR. RICCI: My question was 6 specifically responsible. 7 MR. NASSIF: You mean had the title 8 environmental controls? 9 MR. RICCI: That would be one example, 10 or if they didn't have the title ifthat was 11 their specific or exclusive responsibility. 12 MR. NASSIF: If you can answer it, 13 Bill, go ahead and answer it. 14 A My hesitation is due to the timing. 15 Eventually there was an individual, but I'm 16 not -- I don't recall now whether he was in 17 place in that time period we are talking 18 about, the late'50s or not. I just can't 19 remember when this person was designated as 20 the individual that concerned himself with 21 environmental matters. 22 Q (By Mr. Ricci) Was there anybody at 23 the corporate level with responsibility for 24 environmental matters or environmental 25 controls during the time period either when Wm. Papageorge, 10/20/94 Page 38 WATER PCB-SD0000048802 39 1 you were supervisor or superintendent in 2 engineering? 3 A At that point in time I don't recall 4 ever hearing the expression environmental 5 control mentioned. 6 Q Whether that term was mentioned or 7 not, was there anyone at the corporate level 8 who was specifically responsible for 9 monitoring supervisors or overseeing 10 discharges to water and air? 11 A No. 12 Q What was the next position that you 13 held at Monsanto after superintendent for 14 maintenance and engineering? 15 A I was appointed a superintendent in 16 the technical department in the plant called 17 technical services department. 18 Q I'm sorry. That was superintendent of 19 technical services? 20 A One of about four of us, yes. 21 Q What year did you take that position, 22 do you recall? 23 A About'61,'62. Keep in mind these 24 dates could be off. 25 Q Sure. You mentioned that you were one Wm. Papageorge, 10/20/94 Page 39 WATER PCB-SD0000048803 40 1 of four superintendents? 2 A As I remember, yes. 3 Q One of four superintendents for 4 technical services? 5 A Yes. 6 Q Did you have a specific area of 7 responsibility or specialization? 8 A It wasn't a geographic area. It was 9 product associated. 10 Q Which products were within your 11 jurisdiction? 12 A I don't think I will remember all of 13 them, but I do recall phthalic anhydride, 14 which we referred to earlier, maleic 15 anhydride, the plasticizers we talked about 16 earlier. The product was called bisphenol, 17 B-I-S-P-H-E-N-O-L. I'm sure there were many 18 more. I just can't remember all of them. 19 Q Was nitrochlorobenzenes within your 20 jurisdiction? 21 A No. In fact, no. I'm positive it 22 wasn't. 23 Q What were your responsibilities as 24 superintendent of technical services? 25 A I supervised a team of engineers and Wm. Papageorge, 10/20/94 Page 40 WATER PCB-SD0000048804 41 1 technicians, and the number of individuals in 2 that team varied depending of course on the 3 work load. And we were responsible for 4 assisting the production supervisor in either 5 making more product or better product or safer 6 or whatever help he needed technically to 7 achieve what his bosses were expecting of him. 8 Q Do you have any recollection of anyone 9 in the technical services department during 10 this time period being specifically assigned 11 to deal with issues of environmental control? 12 A No. 13 Q How long did you hold this position? 14 A Until about 1962 or so. 15 Q What was the next position that you 16 held at Monsanto? 17 A I was then named the--appointed as a 18 general superintendent of, and I have 19 forgotten the exact title, but it involved 20 warehousing, shipping, receiving, utilities. 21 These were all the services required by the 22 manufacturing teams other than the 23 maintenance. 24 Q This was at Queeny as well? 25 A Yes. Wm. Papageorge, 10/20/94 Page 41 WATER PCB-SD0000048805 42 1 Q And this was in '62, '61, around there 2 that you were appointed? 3 A About that, yes. 4 Q How long did you hold that position? 5 A Until '64. 6 Q Is '64 an approximation as well? 7 A That's firmer. 8 Q What were your duties as general 9 superintendent of warehousing, shipping, 10 receiving and whatever else was included in 11 that title? 12 A Well, I was responsible for 13 supervising all the personnel involved in 14 those many activities, the warehousing team, 15 the shipping team, the people who distributed 16 the steam, electricity, and water in the 17 plant, the trash pickup teams. We even had a 18 facility for blending chemicals. 19 Q You indicated that your 20 responsibilities included supervising trash 21 disposal? 22 A Yes. 23 Q Did they also include supervising 24 chemical waste disposal? 25 A Yes. Wm. Papageorge, 10/20/94 Page 42 WATER PCB-SD0000048806 43 1 Q Do you recall the Queeny plant 2 disposing of any trash or chemical waste in 3 any landfills in Sauget? 4 A Yes. 5 Q Which landfills do you recall the 6 Queeny plant using? 7 A The Krummrich plant landfill. 8 Q Any others? 9 A That's all I ever heard of. 10 Q Do you recall the Queeny plant ever 11 using a landfill owned or operated by Leo 12 Sauget? 13 A Not that--no. No. 14 Q Paul Sauget? 15 A Well, I have heard the names of the 16 individuals, but. 17 Q Right. 18 A But the plant, the Queeny plant, sent 19 the material to the Krummrich plant landfill. 20 Q Did the Queeny plant maintain its own 21 fleet of trucks? 22 A No. 23 Q Were products manufactured at the 24 Queeny plant shipped in trucks at times? 25 A Certainly. Wm. Papageorge, 10/20/94 Page 43 WATER PCB-SD0000048807 44 1 Q Do you recall using a trucking firm by 2 the name of Rogers Cartage during this time 3 period? 4 A Yes. 5 Q Where were they located? 6 A Over in Illinois near the Krummrich 7 plant, as best I recall. 8 Q Do you recall what products the Queeny 9 plant used Rogers to ship? 10 A I certainly can't recall all of them. 11 Q Can you recall any? 12 A The plasticizers we talked about 13 earlier. That's all that comes to mind at the 14 moment. I'm sure there were others. 15 Q Do you know whether the Krummrich 16 plant was using Rogers to haul material during 17 the time period that you were a general 18 superintendent of warehousing and shipping and 19 receiving? 20 A Would you mind repeating that again? 21 Q Yes. Do you know whether the 22 Krummrich plant was using Rogers Cartage as a 23 hauler during the time that you were general 24 superintendent at the Queeny plant? 25 A I did not know that, no. Wm. Papageorge, 10/20/94 Page 44 WATER PCB-SD0000048808 45 1 Q Was there any coordination between 2 Queeny and Krummrich with respect to material 3 transport? 4 MR. NASSIF: Object to the form ofthe 5 question. 6 A I don't know how to define 7 coordination. 8 Q (By Mr. Ricci) Okay. Did you work 9 with your counterpart at the Krummrich plant 10 with respect to scheduling or pricing or 11 anything like that relating to shipping of 12 materials? 13 A No. 14 Q Are you aware of any requirements that 15 Monsanto imposed upon Rogers with respect to 16 the cleaning out of tank cars or tank trailers 17 that were used to haul Monsanto products? 18 A Yes. I'm aware that he was expected 19 to arrive at the plant with a clean vehicle so 20 that the product that he was going to haul 21 would not be contaminated. 22 Q When you say not contaminated, you 23 mean not contaminated by other products or 24 other materials that had been hauled in that 25 trailer? Wm. Papageorge, 10/20/94 Page 45 WATER PCB-SD0000048809 46 1 A Yes. 2 Q Was it then your understanding that 3 when Rogers hauled materials for Monsanto, it 4 was to clean out its trailers before they were 5 used to haul other materials for Monsanto? 6 A Certainly. 7 Q Do you know where this cleaning 8 process took place? 9 A At that time? 10 Q Yes. 11 A No, I did not. 12 Q Do you know whether it occurred at 13 their facility in Sauget? 14 A Again, at that time, I did not know. 15 Q Did there ever come a time when you 16 were aware of where Rogers conducted its 17 trailer cleaning operations? 18 A My awareness came by comments made by 19 others. I personally did not see any of that 20 activity. 21 Q What comments by others are you aware 22 of relating to Rogers cleaning of trailers? 23 A It seems to me I recall reports that 24 referred to the authors mentioning that Rogers 25 could have or may have or did drain materials Wm. Papageorge, 10/20/94 Page 46 WATER PCB-SD0000048810 47 1 into certain areas in the cleaning steps that 2 he took. 3 Q These reports, were they related to 4 efforts to control PCB discharges at the 5 Krummrich plant? 6 A No. 7 Q I believe you testified that you 8 recall reports by others. What kinds of 9 reports were you referring to? 10 A Primarily reports generated by people 11 at the Krummrich plant. That's the best my 12 memory will help me. 13 Q Do you recall the nature of these 14 reports? 15 A The nature was one of reporting 16 environmental kinds of activities relating to 17 the Krummrich plant and its area there. 18 Q By its area, are you referring to the 19 village? 20 A That general area surrounding the 21 Sauget, Illinois, area. 22 Q So you recall reports by individuals 23 at Krummrich which related to environmental 24 activities at Krummrich and in the vicinity of 25 Krummrich where Rogers truck cleaning was Wm. Papageorge, 10/20/94 Page 47 WATER PCB-SD0000048811 48 1 mentioned? 2 A Yes. 3 Q And I believe in your earlier answer 4 you testified to some recollection that Rogers 5 drained certain materials in certain areas? 6 A That is the recollection I have, that 7 I gleaned from some ofthese reports. 8 Q Do you recall what kinds of materials 9 were discussed in those reports? 10 A I only recall one. That doesn't make 11 it complete. I do recall a reference to a PCB 12 type heat transfer fluid. 13 Q And the reference was that Rogers was 14 cleaning trailers that resulted in the 15 discharge ofthis material? 16 A I don't know it was so much cleaning. 17 My memory is fuzzy. I associate that with an 18 accident of some kind. There was some 19 incident that occurred with the release of 20 heat transfer fluid. 21 Q And it somehow involved Rogers? 22 A Yes. 23 Q Have I taxed your recollection to its 24 limit on that incident? 25 A I believe you have, yes, sir. Wm. Papageorge, 10/20/94 Page 48 WATER PCB-SD0000048812 49 1 Q Do you know if it involved a release 2 of PCB type heat transfer fluids to the 3 sewers? 4 A I'm left with that impression that it 5 was released to an undesirable spot or system. 6 Q Wherever that may be? 7 A Yes. I can't remember the specifics. 8 Q Did Rogers haul any waste materials 9 for the Queeny plant? 10 A No. 11 Q Just product? 12 A Yes. 13 Q Do you know whether Rogers hauled any 14 waste materials for the Krummrich plant? 15 A I do not know. 16 Q In your position as this general 17 superintendent of warehousing, et cetera, were 18 you responsible for the transfer or transport 19 of materials from the Queeny plant to other 20 Monsanto plants and vice versa? 21 A I was responsible for the shipment of 22 material leaving the plant. I was responsible 23 for the proper receipt of material arriving at 24 the plant but not for what happened at the 25 source. Wm. Papageorge, 10/20/94 Page 49 WATER PCB-SD0000048813 50 1 Q Were there any materials that the 2 Krummrich -- sorry. Were there any materials 3 that the Queeny plant was receiving from the 4 Krummrich plant during the time that you were 5 general superintendent? 6 A Yes. 7 Q What were they? 8 A For example, the chlorinated benzenes 9 we referred to earlier. As I recall, we 10 received phenol, chlorinated phenol, and some 11 phosphorous chemicals. I can't recall 12 specifically which at the time. I think I 13 know there were some phosphorous chemicals 14 from the Krummrich plant to Queeny plant. I 15 at the moment just don't remember which 16 phosphorous chemicals. That's all that comes 17 to mind at present. 18 Q You said in that last answer 19 chlorinated phenols. Were you referring to 20 PCBs? 21 A No. Those are biphenyl, not phenols. 22 Q What are chlorinated phenols? Can you 23 give me an example? 24 A Yes. You have heard of penta, the 25 wood treating chemical. Wm. Papageorge, 10/20/94 Page 50 WATER PCB-SD0000048814 51 1 Q So pentachlorophenol? 2 A That's pentachloro. Yes, that's a 3 member of the family. 4 Q Okay. Did the Queeny plant receive 5 any PCB-containing products or materials from 6 Krummrich? 7 A Yes. 8 Q Which products that you recall? 9 A As best I remember, they received just 10 about all of the liquid PCBs. 11 Q What applications did the Queeny plant 12 put the PCBs to that it received from 13 Krummrich? 14 A There were several. 15 Q That you can recall? 16 A Of course it was used to service the 17 electrical equipment, the transformers in 18 particular. It was used as a heat transfer 19 fluid in the operating equipment, and it was 20 also in a raw material -- I want to call it a 21 raw material -- used in the blending at this 22 lending station that I mentioned earlier for 23 the manufacture of hydraulic fluids. 24 Q Any other applications that you can 25 recall? Wm. Papageorge, 10/20/94 Page 51 WATER PCB-SD0000048815 52 1 A That's it. 2 Q And these materials were received 3 during the time that you were general 4 superintendent? 5 A Yes. 6 Q Were they received prior to the time 7 that you were general superintendent as well? 8 A Yes. 9 Q How were those materials transported? 10 By those materials, I should be specific. I'm 11 referring to the liquid PCBs that the Queeny 12 plant received from the Krummrich plant. 13 A Primarily through rail tank cars. 14 Occasionally in 55 gallon steel drums. 15 Q Were they ever transported by tank 16 car? 17 MR. NASSIF: That's what he just said. 18 Q (By Mr. Ricci) I'm sorry. 19 A Rail tank car. 20 Q I'm sorry. I mean tank trailers? 21 A No. 22 Q How many production processes at the 23 Queeny plant used PCB-containing heat transfer 24 fluids? 25 A I have no idea. Wm. Papageorge, 10/20/94 Page 52 WATER PCB-SD0000048816 53 1 Q Do you know of any? 2 A Yes. I recall some. 3 Q Which do you recall? 4 A The one that comes to mind is the 5 production unit that made chemicals referred 6 to as phosphate esters. I believe the 7 department that made the bisphenol product 8 also had a heat transfer unit that used PCBs 9 as the heating media. I can't recall the 10 others. 11 Q In either ofthose two operations that 12 you do recall, do you know whether the PCB13 containing heat transfer fluids ever became 14 spent or got to the point where they needed to 15 be replaced or changed out? 16 A I was never that close to them. No, I 17 do not. 18 Q You indicated that the Queeny plant 19 received PCB liquids that were used as a raw 20 material in the blending of hydraulic fluids. 21 What were the names of the hydraulic fluids 22 that were blended at Queeny plant? What was 23 the name? 24 A It was the trade name Pydraul followed 25 by letters and numbers to distinguish the Wm. Papageorge, 10/20/94 Page 53 WATER PCB-SD0000048817 54 1 different recipes and mixtures. 2 Q What other raw materials were involved 3 in the blending of Pydraul besides the PCB 4 liquids? 5 A The phosphate esters were an 6 ingredient. Some of them contained mineral 7 oil, and I forgot all the chemicals that were 8 added to give the proper fluidity, viscosity 9 and color. 10 Q Do you recall the specific aroclors 11 that were used in this process? 12 A I recall some of them. 13 Q Which ones do you recall? 14 A The aroclor 1242 and aroclor 1248. 15 Those are the only two that come to mind. 16 Q Do you recall the number or letter 17 designations that were attached to the 18 Pydrauls that were made at Queeny? 19 A Again, there were many. I remember 20 Pydraul F-9. The others don't come to mind. 21 Q Do you recall A-200? 22 A Yes, A-200. 23 Q A-280? 24 A A-280 does not ring a bell, no. 25 MR. NASSIF: Are you asking him if Wm. Papageorge, 10/20/94 Page 54 WATER PCB-SD0000048818 55 1 those were, A-200 and A-280, made at Krummrich 2 or if he recalls? 3 Q (By Mr. Ricci) Made at Queeny. Do 4 you recall ifthose were made at Queeny? 5 A Yes. 6 Q Do the numbers that we just mentioned 7 refresh your recollection as to any others 8 that were manufactured at Queeny? 9 A No. There were, gosh, as many as a 10 dozen altogether. I just don't recall all the 11 numbers. 12 Q Do you know if these Pydrauls were 13 also blended at Krummrich? 14 A Yes, they were. 15 Q Why were they blended at both places? 16 A Well, it is a matter of timing. At 17 one time these products were blended both at 18 Queeny and Krummrich. And when this central 19 blending system was installed at Queeny plant, 20 it was consolidated at the Queeny plant. So 21 beginning in 1963, the Pydrauls were all made 22 at the Queeny plant. Krummrich plant no 23 longer blended. 24 Q The product that came out of the 25 blending operations at Queeny were finished Wm. Papageorge, 10/20/94 Page 55 WATER PCB-SD0000048819 56 1 products? 2 A Yes. 3 Q How were those materials shipped to 4 customers? 5 A Primarily in 55 gallon steel drums. 6 Q Were they ever shipped in tank 7 trailers? 8 A I don't know. 9 Q Do you have any recollection of Rogers 10 being involved in the shipment of Pydrauls 11 from Queeny? 12 A I just don't remember that. 13 Q What was the next position that you 14 held at Monsanto? 15 A I was assigned as one of the general 16 superintendents of manufacturing at the W. G. 17 Krummrich plant. That was in'64. 18 Q How long did you hold that position? 19 A About a year. 20 Q '64 to'65? 21 A Yes. 22 Q And I'm sorry. You testified you were 23 one of a number of general superintendents? 24 A Yes. 25 Q How many? Wm. Papageorge, 10/20/94 Page 56 WATER PCB-SD0000048820 57 1 A About five as I remember. 2 Q Did you have specific products or 3 operations that you were responsible for? 4 A I did. 5 Q What were those? 6 A I recall the phenol department, the 7 chlorinated phenol department, a rubber 8 additive department. And there were a couple 9 three more I can't recall at the moment. 10 That's all I can remember. 11 Q What was the rubber additive? 12 A It was called 4-NDPA. I don't recall 13 the chemical terminology that fits that 14 acronym. 15 Q Do you recall if chlorinated benzenes 16 were within your jurisdiction as general 17 superintendent of manufacturing? 18 A No. That was one of the other 19 superintendents. 20 Q How about aroclors? 21 A No. That was not mine. 22 Q Phosphate esters? 23 A No. 24 Q Chlorine? 25 A No. Wm. Papageorge, 10/20/94 Page 57 WATER PCB-SD0000048821 58 1 Q Benzyl chloride? 2 A Yes. Benzyl chloride, yes. 3 THE WITNESS: Can we take a break at 4 this point? 5 (Recess) 6 MR. RICCI: Back on the record. 7 Q (By Mr. Ricci) Mr. Papageorge, in 8 your position as general superintendent of 9 manufacturing at Krummrich, were you required 10 to gain a working knowledge of the 11 manufacturing processes that were within your 12 jurisdiction? 13 A Can you help me with the expression 14 working knowledge? 15 Q Were you required to familiarize 16 yourself with the production processes? 17 A In a general way, yes. But not 18 specifically in terms of exact temperatures, 19 pressures, which valve to turn and when and so 20 on. 21 Q But in terms of what raw materials 22 were used and what reactions were involved, 23 are those concepts that you gained some 24 familiarity with? 25 A Yes. Wm. Papageorge, 10/20/94 Page 58 WATER PCB-SD0000048822 59 1 Q Did you have any responsibility or 2 knowledge with respect to issues like material 3 balances and waste products generated? 4 A Indirectly. 5 Q Okay. What do you mean by that? 6 A My responsibility was to make certain 7 that the amount of product produced met a 8 standard in terms of yield. We refer to it as 9 yield on the raw materials. So by 10 concentrating on that yield, it indirectly 11 affects the amount that might have been lost 12 elsewhere or resulted in some other chemical. 13 Q Were you aware of documents that were 14 referred to as standard manufacturing 15 processes? 16 A Yes. 17 Q What did you understand those 18 documents to be? 19 A In a way, these are the technical 20 documents prepared by technically oriented 21 people including the research chemists and so 22 on where the process was studied. And it is a 23 -- I'm going to call it a recipe for making 24 the product. 25 Q Were those documents relied upon by Wm. Papageorge, 10/20/94 Page 59 WATER PCB-SD0000048823 60 1 the individuals who were involved in the 2 manufacturing operations? 3 A Certainly. 4 Q And they were to the best of your 5 knowledge accurate in their description of the 6 manufacturing processes or the recipes? 7 A As accurately as the understanding 8 available at the time or the technology 9 available at the time, yes. 10 MR. RICCI: Let me go off the record 11 for a second. 12 (Discussion offthe record) 13 (Plaintiff Deposition Exhibit Number 1 14 marked for identification). 15 Q (By Mr. Ricci) Mr. Papageorge,I'm 16 showing you a document that's been marked as 17 Exhibit 1 to your deposition. And I would ask 18 you -- and it is a document with Bates 19 No. CER 111154, M13196. And I'd ask you to 20 take a look at it and just identify it for me. 211 want to test your eyesight as well as your 22 memory with this series of questions. 23 A You asked me to identify it. lean 24 only read the title ofthe document. 25 Q Okay. Wm. Papageorge, 10/20/94 Page 60 WATER PCB-SD0000048824 61 1 A Which is the WGK plant 1964 sewers, 2 Monsanto Company, Sauget, Illinois. 3 Q And you are just reading the legend 4 there -- 5 A Yes. 6 Q -- in giving that answer? 7 A Yes. 8 Q Do you understand the WGK plant to be 9 the Krummrich plant? 10 A Yes. 11 Q As you look at this map, can you tell, 12 other than from reading the legend, that this 13 is in fact a map that depicts the Krummrich 14 plant? 15 A I'm having some difficulty spotting 16 specific information that would really help 17 me. I do see a reference to, say, Falling 18 Springs Road. That helps. 19 Q Okay. 20 A I do see the reference to the service 21 building, and I do recall that. I do see the 22 near location of a section here referred to as 23 the American Zinc Company, which fits my 24 understanding of the WG Krummrich plant site. 25 But other than that, I'm having some Wm. Papageorge, 10/20/94 Page 61 WATER PCB-SD0000048825 62 1 difficulty identifying the rest of the map. 2 Q Do you mind if I just stand? I don't 3 mean to hover over you. 4 A Sure. 5 Q You see the reference to Monsanto 6 Avenue? 7 A I do. 8 Q Does that assist you in orienting 9 yourself as to what this map depicts or how it 10 depicts the plant layout? 11 A That does help. Monsanto Avenue and 12 Falling Springs Road does help. 13 Q Now, were you familiar with what was 14 referred to as the north plant and the south 15 plant at Krummrich? 16 A Yes. 17 Q What did you understand the north 18 plant to be? Not in terms of what they made 19 there, but just what delineated between the 20 north and the south plant. 21 A As best I recall, the north plant to 22 me represented the older facility, which dated 23 back to World War I. That was purchased by 24 Monsanto and became a part ofthe overall 25 site. The north end also made, as I recall, Wm. Papageorge, 10/20/94 Page 62 WATER PCB-SD0000048826 63 1 the oil additives which were later sold to the 2 Ethel Corporation. That's about all I 3 remember of that distinction. 4 Q Was it your understanding that the 5 north plant was located north of Monsanto 6 Avenue? 7 A I did not try to reach any 8 understanding in my own mind as to where the 9 description north, what it related to. 10 Q You indicated that one of the areas of 11 responsibility that you had as general 12 superintendent at the Krummrich facility was 13 manufacturing of phenol? 14 A Yes. 15 Q Can you show me on this map where the 16 phenol manufacturing operation took place? 17 A I was looking for that earlier. And I 18 am disoriented at the moment. I just cannot 19 spot it. 20 Q Do you recall if it was east of 21 Falling Springs Road or west of Falling 22 Springs Road? 23 A No, I don't. 24 Q Do you recall the location of any of 25 the manufacturing operations that you were Wm. Papageorge, 10/20/94 Page 63 WATER PCB-SD0000048827 64 1 responsible for during the time that you were 2 general superintendent of manufacturing? 3 A No. 4 Q So you can't identify any of their 5 locations on the map? 6 A I cannot, no. 7 Q Do you have any recollection of a 8 concern being raised at the Krummrich facility 9 with respect to phenol discharges to the sewer 10 system? 11 A No. 12 Q Any recollection of a project or 13 program to reduce phenol discharges to the 14 sewers? 15 A No. 16 Q Do you know whether any of the 17 manufacturing processes that you were 18 responsible for as general superintendent 19 resulted in the discharge of phenol to the 20 sewers? 21 A Yes. 22 Q Which processes were those? 23 A We are talking about phenol per se? 24 Q Yes. 25 A Just straight phenol? Wm. Papageorge, 10/20/94 Page 64 WATER PCB-SD0000048828 65 1 Q Correct. 2 A There were occasions in the phenol 3 producing unit when some of the phenol would 4 get into the sewer system, yes. 5 Q By what mechanism did that occur? 6 A I don't remember all the details. I 7 do know that there were phenol-containing 8 waste waters. 9 Q Waste waters from the manufacturing 10 operation of phenol? 11 A Yes. 12 Q Do you know whether there were any -- 13 let me withdraw that. Do you have any 14 recollection of the quantity or concentration 15 of the phenol discharges from the phenol 16 manufacturing operation? 17 A No. The only recall I have was not 18 with respect to specific numbers but to the 19 point that the phenol content should not be 20 such that it destroyed the municipal waste 21 treatment procedures or methods that they were 22 using to treat the wastes. 23 Q You are talking about the village 24 waste water treatment? 25 A Yes. Wm. Papageorge, 10/20/94 Page 65 WATER PCB-SD0000048829 66 1 Q Were there instances where the phenol 2 discharge did interfere with the village waste 3 water treatment operations? 4 A Not that I recall, no. 5 Q Were there any specific steps taken to 6 prevent that from happening taken by Monsanto? 7 A Well, in the design of the system and 8 in the training of the operators and all, this 9 is one ofthe points that was covered. 10 Q Were there any specific design 11 features that you can recall that related to 12 reducing phenol discharges to the sewers? 13 A Not specifically, no. 14 Q How did phenol interfere or how 15 potentially could phenol interfere with the 16 village waste water operation treatment? 17 A It is my understanding that activated 18 sludge was part of their system. And phenol, 19 being a good disinfectant at high enough 20 levels, could destroy the bacteria to the 21 point where the system didn't do what was 22 expected of it. 23 Q Is it your understanding that the 24 village employed activated sludge during the 25 time that you were general superintendent of Wm. Papageorge, 10/20/94 Page 66 WATER PCB-SD0000048830 67 1 manufacturing? 2 A That was my understanding, yes, sir. 3 Q What was the source of the phenol4 containing waste water that came out of the 5 phenol manufacturing operation? 6 A I don't recall now. 7 Q Do you know whether the chlorinated 8 phenol manufacturing operation resulted in any 9 discharges of phenol to the sewers? 10 A On occasion, yes. 11 Q How so? 12 A Well, I recall blockages in the 13 production system. And during the cleanup of 14 these blockages, although the intent was made 15 to salvage the material, some of it would get 16 on the floors. It was difficult to sweep up 17 to the point where none of it was there. And 18 eventually the floors would get hosed down and 19 the material would end up in the sewer. 20 Q This would be phenol? 21 A Well, it would be the chlorinated 22 phenol. 23 Q Do you recall whether there were any 24 waste waters discharged from the chlorinated 25 phenol production into the sewers? Wm. Papageorge, 10/20/94 Page 67 WATER PCB-SD0000048831 68 1 A I don't. 2 Q Do you recall -- let me withdraw that. 3 What was the chemical reaction or reactions 4 involved in the manufacture of chlorinated 5 phenol? 6 A It was the introduction of chlorine 7 gas into a molten batch of phenol, and the 8 chlorine would attach itself randomly and 9 produce the chlorinated phenols. That's not a 10 scientific explanation, but that's in essence 11 what happens. 12 Q Were there any by-product or waste 13 materials generated in that production 14 process? 15 A There were some residues, yes, when it 16 was distilled. 17 Q After the reaction of chlorine and 18 phenol, there was a distillation process? 19 A Yes. 20 Q Are we talking again about still 21 bottom type materials? 22 A Yes. 23 Q How were those materials disposed of? 24 A Into the landfill. 25 Q Was there a hydrogen chloride gas Wm. Papageorge, 10/20/94 Page 68 WATER PCB-SD0000048832 69 1 generated in the reaction of chlorine and 2 phenol? 3 A Yes. 4 Q How was that hydrogen chloride gas 5 handled? 6 A It was scrubbed with water and 7 resulted in an acid, hydrogen chloride acid, 8 which is known commonly as muriatic acid. 9 Q Was the muriatic acid that resulted 10 from that scrubbing process treated as a 11 product at Krummrich? 12 A Yes. 13 Q Was the hydrogen chloride gas ever 14 scrubbed to the sewer? 15 A Not to my knowledge, no. 16 Q The hydrogen chloride gas was 17 generated in the initial reaction of chlorine 18 and phenol; is that correct? 19 A Correct. 20 Q And that gas came off the reactor? 21 A Yes. 22 Q How was it transported to the 23 manufacture of muriatic acid? 24 A I think I know what you mean by 25 transported. Wm. Papageorge, 10/20/94 Page 69 WATER PCB-SD0000048833 70 1 Q Conveyed may be a better word. 2 A Well, as I remember, there are vacuum 3 jets that suck in essence the system such that 4 the gas will go to the low pressure side, and 5 it is introduced into a vertical still column 6 with the presence of water sprays. And the 7 gas has to work its way up either through 8 packing or trays. I don't know the internals 9 of the absorption column. And the water, of 10 course, will be flowing downward, the gas 11 trying to go upward, and you get this mixing, 12 and you end up with the acid coming out the 13 bottom. 14 Q Is 100 percent of the hydrogen 15 chloride gas consumed in that mixing process? 16 A With the analytical methods available 17 at the time, it was considered a hundred 18 percent, yes. 19 Q As the hydrogen chloride came off the 20 reactor, do you know whether any organic 21 material came off with it? 22 A That I don't know. 23 Q Do you know whether there were any 24 condensers or mist eliminators of any kind 25 that were used to treat the hydrogen chloride Wm. Papageorge, 10/20/94 Page 70 WATER PCB-SD0000048834 71 1 gas coming off the reactor before it went into 2 the scrubber? 3 A Yes, there were. 4 Q What exactly was there, to the best of 5 your recollection? 6 A Oh, I can't remember the details, no. 7 Q Do you remember if there was a 8 condenser? 9 A Yes. The intent there is to -- yes, 10 condense out any of the organic chemical 11 vapors that are there at the higher 12 temperatures, yes. 13 Q Do you recall if there was a mist 14 eliminator? 15 A Yes. 16 Q And what were the functions of the 17 mist eliminator? 18 A To catch any of the droplets of liquid 19 that are formed as a result of this condensing 20 step, the cooling step. 21 Q So the gas is cooled in the condenser, 22 and the vaporous organics are converted to 23 liquid form and then removed by the mist 24 eliminator? 25 A Well, the gases are condensed to form Wm. Papageorge, 10/20/94 Page 71 WATER PCB-SD0000048835 72 1 liquids and they trickle on down. Some of the 2 droplets continue on with the gases. These 3 droplets are captured in the mist eliminator, 4 sort of a second capture of liquids. 5 Q And would the organics removed by the 6 condenser and mist eliminator consist of 7 chlorinated phenols? 8 A Yes. They are put back into the 9 original pot for further chlorination. 10 Q Do you know whether these 11 remanufactured organics were ever discharged 12 to the sewers? 13 A I don't recall that ever being done, 14 no. That's valuable product. You don't want 15 to lose it. 16 Q Do you recall any process type 17 discharges to the sewers in the manufacture of 18 chlorinated phenol? 19 A I do not. 20 Q You indicated that benzyl chloride was 21 another production operation within your 22 jurisdiction as general superintendent? 23 A I did. 24 Q Where was that production operation 25 located? No recollection? Wm. Papageorge, 10/20/94 Page 72 WATER PCB-SD0000048836 73 1 A I don't recall. 2 Q What were the raw materials in the 3 manufacture of benzyl chloride? 4 A Benzene and chlorine, as I remember. 5 Q Do you recall whether toluene was a 6 raw material? 7 A I'm sorry. Toluene and chlorine, yes. 8 Q What chemical reaction was involved in 9 that production? 10 A As I remember, the hydrogen is 11 replaced by chlorine, and you again form 12 hydrogen chloride. 13 Q So you react -- the chlorine is 14 reactive with the toluene? 15 A Yes. On the methyl part of the 16 toluene molecule. Toluene is the benzene ring 17 with a CH3 attached. As I remember, the 18 chlorine affixes itself to that CH3 portion. 19 Q Displacing a hydrogen - 20 A Hydrogen. 21 Q So HCL hydrogen chloride is a 22 by-product in this manufacturing operation as 23 well? 24 A Yes. 25 Q Do you recall how the by-product HCL Wm. Papageorge, 10/20/94 Page 73 WATER PCB-SD0000048837 74 1 was dealt with in the benzyl chloride 2 manufacturing process? 3 A The same as we discussed earlier on 4 the chlorinated phenol. 5 Q So that it was taken off the reactor 6 by a vacuum system? 7 A Uh-huh. 8 Q And passed through a condenser and a 9 mist eliminator? 10 A Yes. 11 Q And then the HCL went to the -- was 12 scrubbed to create muriatic acid? 13 A Correct. 14 Q Did that scrubbing process take place 15 in the benzyl chloride department, or did it 16 take place someplace else? 17 A I don't recall specifically for the 18 benzyl chloride because there were situations 19 where chlorinated process -- chlorination 20 process took place and released hydrogen 21 chloride which had its own absorbing column. 22 There were other instances that I 23 remember where the streams were combined and 24 sent to some other operation for absorption. 25 And I don't recall specifically which ofthe Wm. Papageorge, 10/20/94 Page 74 WATER PCB-SD0000048838 75 1 chlorination steps or processes were involved 2 with their own absorption system or a joint 3 kind of system. 4 Q And you don't recall which of those 5 two categories benzyl chloride fits into? 6 A That is correct. 7 Q And do you recall which of those two 8 categories chlorinated phenols fit into? 9 A As best I recall, the chlorinated 10 phenol had their own. Because of the higher 11 volume it justified its own unit. 12 Q The muriatic acid was then sold as a 13 product? 14 A Yes. 15 Q Were there ever times that you can 16 recall when you were generating more -- let me 17 try again. Were there times that you can 18 recall where the generation of HCL exceeded 19 the demand for muriatic acid? 20 A No. I don't recall that at all. 21 Q So it is your recollection that you 22 were able to move as product all of the 23 muriatic acid that was produced from this 24 by-product HCL? 25 A Yes. Wm. Papageorge, 10/20/94 Page 75 WATER PCB-SD0000048839 76 1 Q Did the benzyl chloride manufacturing 2 operation result in any discharges to the 3 sewers? 4 A No. 5 Q Was there a distillation step in the 6 benzyl chloride manufacturing operation? 7 A Yes. 8 Q Were there still bottoms generated? 9 A Yes. 10 Q How were those disposed of? 11 A Disposed of in the landfill, the 12 Sauget landfill, Krummrich landfill. 13 Q Do you recall the Krummrich plant ever 14 disposing of materials in a landfill owned by 15 Leo Sauget? 16 A I never -- no, I don't recall that. 17 Q And where was the location of the 18 Krummrich landfill? 19 A I don't know how to describe it. It 20 was -- I recall looking out over it and I 21 could see the Mississippi River and the old 22 power plant. I don't know how else to 23 describe that area. 24 Q So looking at it from the plant, you 25 had to look west from the plant? Wm. Papageorge, 10/20/94 Page 76 WATER PCB-SD0000048840 77 1 A Yes. 2 Q And it was between the plant and the 3 Mississippi River? 4 A Yes. 5 Q Was Rogers Cartage involved in the 6 shipment of any of the products that you were 7 responsible for as general superintendent of 8 manufacturing? 9 A I don't know. 10 Q Did your duties as general 11 superintendent include shipment of product? 12 A No. 13 Q Do you know whether the Krummrich 14 plant -- let me withdraw that. Do you know 15 whether Roger Cartage engaged in shipment of 16 any product for the Krummrich plant? 17 A Oh, yes. 18 Q Did the Krummrich plant impose the 19 same requirements on Rogers Cartage as the 20 Queeny plant did with respect to making sure 21 that the tankers were cleaned out? 22 A Yes. 23 Q Have you been able to recall in the 24 course of my questioning any other products 25 that you were responsible for as general Wm. Papageorge, 10/20/94 Page 77 WATER PCB-SD0000048841 78 1 superintendent of manufacturing at the 2 Krummrich plant? 3 A No, I haven't. 4 Q And what was the position that you 5 next held after general superintendent of 6 manufacturing? 7 A I was assigned as plant manager of the 8 Monsanto plant in Anniston, Alabama. 9 Q When was that? 10 A 1965 to the end of 1969. 11 Q So you moved then to Alabama? 12 A Yes. 13 Q What were your responsibilities as 14 plant manager? 15 A I guess one way to describe it, the 16 buck stopped at my desk. I was responsible 17 for virtually everything that occurred within 18 the plant and any association of Monsanto with 19 the community. 20 Q General superintendents reported to 21 you? 22 A Yes. 23 Q Were you responsible for liaisons with 24 local and state governmental agencies? 25 A Yes. Wm. Papageorge, 10/20/94 Page 78 WATER PCB-SD0000048842 79 1 Q Approximately how many products were 2 manufactured at the Anniston plant while you 3 were plant manager? 4 A About a dozen. It all depends on how 5 you define products. When I say a dozen, I'm 6 talking broad categories which are broken down 7 further into specific product and in specific 8 packages. 9 Q So, for instance, you would be 10 considering aroclors as a single product? 11 A Correct. 12 Q Out of the dozen? 13 A Correct. 14 Q But there were numerous aroclors that 15 were manufactured? 16 A That is correct. 17 Q What were the dozen categories of 18 products manufactured at Anniston during the 19 time that you were plant manager? 20 A I will try to remember them. We made 21 biphenyl, we made a hydrogenated biphenyl, we 22 made the chlorinated biphenyl, the PCBs, we 23 made terphenyls and chlorinated terphenyls. 24 We made chlorine and caustic soda, phosphorous 25 pentasulfide, and the parathion, Wm. Papageorge, 10/20/94 Page 79 WATER PCB-SD0000048843 80 1 P-A-R-A-T-H-I-O-N. That's all that comes to 2 mind at the moment. 3 Q Did you make muriatic acid? 4 A Yes. Didn't I mention that? Muriatic 5 acid. 6 Q Any others that you recall? 7 A Doesn't come to mind at the moment. 8 Q Were any of the products that were 9 manufactured at Anniston also manufactured at 10 Krummrich? 11 A Yes. The chlorine and caustic soda, 12 the PCBs, the phosphorous pentasulfide and the 13 muriatic acid. 14 Q With respect to the manufacture of 15 PCBs, did the Anniston plant employ the same 16 manufacturing process as was employed at 17 Krummrich? 18 A Basically, yes. 19 Q How about with respect to phosphorous 20 pentasulfide? 21 A Yes. 22 Q How about chlorine? 23 A Yes. 24 Q Phosphorous pentasulfide is also 25 referred to as P2S5? Wm. Papageorge, 10/20/94 Page 80 WATER PCB-SD0000048844 81 1 A Correct. 2 Q With respect to the PCB manufacturing 3 operation, are you aware of any differences in 4 the operations at Anniston versus Krummrich? 5 MR. NASSIF: You mean in terms of 6 production or shipments or what? 7 Q (By Mr. Ricci) In terms of production 8 processes. 9 A Of course there were -- 10 Q Let me try to be more specific. I 11 mean I'm not talking about you use the 12 different size reactor or you had different 13 size storage tanks. I'm getting more at the 14 basic steps in the manufacture of the product. 15 1 don't know if that helps you or not. 16 MR. NASSIF: I will object. I think 17 he has answered that question already that the 18 processes were the same. He said they were 19 basically the same. 20 MR. RICCI: And I'm trying to 21 determine if there were any differences that 22 he can recollect. 23 MR. NASSIF: Okay. 24 A I could speak directly to the Anniston 25 process. There were two approaches taken in Wm. Papageorge, 10/20/94 Page 81 WATER PCB-SD0000048845 82 1 the manufacture of PCBs in Anniston. One was 2 the use of a single pot, so to speak, and 3 introducing the chlorine into the biphenyl and 4 making the resulting PCB. The refinement on 5 that was the cascading step or three pots, 6 let's say, that are in series where chlorine 7 is introduced to each pot and the material 8 overflows from one to the other. 9 What I don't recall because I was not 10 intimate with the PCB unit at the Krummrich 11 plant is as to whether they used both 12 approaches or settled for the cascading. And 13 I didn't want to mislead you. 14 Q (By Mr. Ricci) That's fine. I 15 understand. Was the single pot method also 16 referred to as a batch method? 17 A Yes. Well, again, that is a batch 18 definitely. But even with the cascading we 19 have to be careful because they were using 20 batch numbers and so on, so that was an 21 arbitrary cutoff. With the cascading it was 22 somewhat continuous. They would just number 23 their watches. You would see reporting by 24 time, from midnight to one period to midnight 25 of the next. I didn't want to confuse you Wm. Papageorge, 10/20/94 Page 82 WATER PCB-SD0000048846 83 1 there. 2 Q And they used both systems at 3 Anniston, and you are just not sure whether 4 they used both at Krummrich? 5 A That is correct. 6 Q Did Anniston and Krummrich manufacture 7 the same aroclors? 8 A At what point in time? 9 Q During the time period that you were 10 plant manager at Anniston? 11 A Yes. 12 Q Did there come a time when different 13 aroclors were manufactured at Krummrich and 14 Anniston? 15 A Yes. 16 Q When was that? Before or after you 17 were plant manager? 18 A After. 19 Q What differences do you recall? 20 A Well, in 1971 or so, actually there 21 was no production of PCBs at Anniston. The 22 Krummrich plant continued producing the 23 aroclors and introduced the new one, the one 24 referred to as 1016. 25 Q So PCB production at Anniston ceased Wm. Papageorge, 10/20/94 Page 83 WATER PCB-SD0000048847 84 1 in 71? 2 A Yes. 3 Q But continued at Krummrich, and 4 Krummrich added this new aroclor? 5 A Correct. 6 Q 1016 was not produced at Anniston? 7 A That is correct. 8 Q Was the Anniston plant served by a 9 sewer system? 10 A Yes. 11 Q Where did that sewer system discharge 12 to? 13 A The Anniston municipal waste treatment 14 plant. 15 Q And where did the treatment plant 16 discharge to? 17 A One ofthe creeks, as I remember. 18 Q Was it Snow Creek? 19 A No. Choccolocco Creek. 20 Q Was the production capacity of the 21 Anniston plant for PCBs greater or less than 22 the capacity at Krummrich? 23 A I would suggest about equal for all 24 practical purposes. 25 Q Is it fair to say then that during the Wm. Papageorge, 10/20/94 Page 84 WATER PCB-SD0000048848 85 1 time that they were both producing PCBs, they 2 both produced approximately the same volume? 3 A That is correct. 4 Q During the time that you were plant 5 manager at Anniston, what was the volume of 6 PCBs that you were producing on a yearly 7 basis? 8 A I would only be guessing. I don't 9 know. 10 Q I don't want you to guess. 11 MR. NASSIF: Did you say you wanted 12 him to guess? 13 MR. RICCI: No. I said I don't want 14 him to guess. 15 Q (By Mr. Ricci) Were there any sewer 16 discharges that you were aware of that 17 emanated from the PCB production operation at 18 Anniston? 19 A Yes. 20 Q What were they? 21 A It was waste water from the -- well, 22 there were two separate systems. That's why I 23 hesitate. The waste waters from the 24 parathion, which is the insecticide, had their 25 system which included bacteria-activated Wm. Papageorge, 10/20/94 Page 85 WATER PCB-SD0000048849 86 1 sludge treatment. 2 Q Let me stop you there. I think I 3 asked you about sewer discharges from the 4 production of PCBs. 5 A Oh, okay. 6 Q So I thought you were going off there. 7 A Right. The PCBs did have some wastes 8 that were sent to a limestone pit and 9 eventually went into the sewer system. 10 Q Where in the process did those -- let 11 me stop you there for a second. Can you 12 describe generally the steps in the PCB 13 production process at Anniston? 14 A I can try to recall it. It is very 15 similar to any other chlorination step. You 16 take the biphenyl, introduce the chlorine. 17 You produce hydrogen chloride gas. The gas is 18 again sent through condensers and demisters 19 and it is absorbed and made into a muriatic 20 acid which is sold as a product. 21 At the Anniston plant, there were some 22 I'm going to call it fumes or gases that came 23 off of the demister system that were absorbed 24 in a separate scrubber that ended up in the 25 waste water that went to this limestone pit Wm. Papageorge, 10/20/94 Page 86 WATER PCB-SD0000048850 87 1 for neutralization. 2 Q Let me stop you there. There were 3 fumes that came off the scrubber that went to 4 the limestone pit? 5 A Yes. No. No. 6 Q I'm sorry. You have lost me there. 7 Maybe you could repeat that answer again in 8 terms of what got to the limestone pit and 9 where it came from. 10 A All right. The hot gases coming off 11 the chlorination reaction were condensed. The 12 liquid form from that condensation step goes 13 back to the reactor. The cooled gases then 14 containing droplets of liquid went to a 15 demister. The system, being the older system, 16 didn't get it all, so there was an additional 17 little scrubber to scrub any remaining 18 droplets of hydrogen chloride gas that didn't 19 get absorbed. And that dropped into the sewer 20 system which sent this water to limestone pits 21 to neutralize any acid that was still in that 22 waste water. 23 Q So that the gas comes off the 24 chlorinator? 25 A Yes. Wm. Papageorge, 10/20/94 Page 87 WATER PCB-SD0000048851 88 1 Q Into a condenser? 2 A Correct. 3 Q Condensed materials go back into 4 production? 5 A Correct. 6 Q Gas proceeds to the demister? 7 A Correct. 8 Q And the liquid from the demister goes 9 to another scrubber? 10 A No. The liquid goes back where that 11 other liquid, the condenser liquid went. 12 Q Back into production? 13 A Now the gases still coming off of that 14 demister -- 15 Q Which is HCL? 16 A -- had some HCL in it. I'm sorry. 17 Yes, you are right. It does have HCL, yes. 18 That goes to the scrubber. And the scrubber 19 gases then still have residual. 20 Q So the gas coming off the demister 21 goes to the scrubber. And it is at that point 22 that it is combined with the water to make a 23 muriatic acid? 24 A Muriatic acid. 25 Q And some additional gas that escapes Wm. Papageorge, 10/20/94 Page 88 WATER PCB-SD0000048852 89 1 off the scrubber? 2 A Correct. It goes to a smaller 3 scrubber which makes a very dilute kind of 4 acid, and it was found easier to sewer and 5 neutralize to the limestone pit rather than 6 try to salvage that small amount of acid. 7 Q And the reason for this second 8 scrubber was that the first scrubber was not 9 as efficient as the scrubber, for instance, at 10 the Krummrich plant? 11 A Yes. This was overloaded. It was an 12 older unit that was being overloaded. 13 Q The organic material that is in the 14 gas coming off the reactor, what does that 15 consist of? 16 A Gas coming offthe reactor, organic. 17 1 don't recall ever seeing an analysis of it, 18 so I can't really tell you exactly what's in 19 it. 20 Q Is it fair to say that it has either 21 got to be biphenyl or chlorinated biphenyl or 22 both? 23 MR. NASSIF: Objection. The witness 24 has told you he never did an analysis of it, 25 and he can't tell you what's in it. Wm. Papageorge, 10/20/94 Page 89 WATER PCB-SD0000048853 90 1 A It calls for chemical speculation. 2 Q (By Mr. Ricci) What are the organics 3 that are in the reactor? 4 A I don't know. I can't give you all of 5 them. I can give you the ones we are looking 6 for, but I can't tell you what's in the 7 residue, in the pot that's thrown away. 8 Q Okay. So what are you looking for? 9 A The product you are trying to make, 10 like the aroclor 1242, for example. 11 Q You are starting out with chlorine and 12 biphenyl, correct? 13 A Correct. 14 Q Chlorine is not an organic; is that 15 correct? 16 A That's correct. 17 Q And biphenyl is an organic, correct? 18 A Yes. 19 A Biphenyl has a little benzene in it. 20 It has a little terphenyl in it. It may have 21 some naphthalene. It has never been really 22 analyzed. That's why I call it chemical 23 speculation here. 24 Q So the biphenyl may not be 100 percent 25 pure biphenyl. Is that what you are saying? Wm. Papageorge, 10/20/94 Page 90 WATER PCB-SD0000048854 91 1 A That's correct. 2 Q You said it may have benzene, 3 naphthalene? 4 A This is all speculation. It has never 5 been analyzed to this degree because 6 instrumentation and technology was not 7 available. 8 Q What led you to testify that it may 9 have benzene and naphthalene? Was that based 10 on your knowledge ofthe biphenyl 11 manufacturing process? 12 A And the raw materials that go into 13 that process, yes. 14 Q What is terphenyl? 15 A It is a three benzene chemical. 16 Instead of the two that make biphenyl, there 17 is a third one. 18 Q And, again, do you have any 19 recollection of the organics that were taken 20 off of the gas coming out of the chlorinator 21 being sent to the sewers as opposed to being 22 put back into production? 23 A Organics -- I don't know that I 24 understand the question exactly. 25 Q Let me take you back. We talked about Wm. Papageorge, 10/20/94 Page 91 WATER PCB-SD0000048855 92 1 this HCL gas that comes off the chlorinator? 2 A Yes. 3 Q Or the reaction of the biphenyl and 4 the chlorine? 5 A Yes. 6 Q And you testified that there was the 7 condenser and the demister to remove organics 8 from that gaseous stream? 9 A All right. 10 Q Okay. 11 A To remove condensables. 12 Q Right. 13 A There might have been moisture or 14 water in there. I don't know. 15 Q My question is do you recall the 16 materials removed from the HCL by the 17 condenser and the demister ever being sent to 18 the sewers? 19 A No. 20 Q From the chlorination of the biphenyl, 21 what's the next step in production? 22 MR. NASSIF: You mean other than this 23 process he described with the condenser to 24 demister to scrubbers? 25 Q (By Mr. Ricci) Yes. The condensers, Wm. Papageorge, 10/20/94 Page 92 WATER PCB-SD0000048856 93 1 the demisters and the scrubbers deal with the 2 HCL that's coming off of the reactor, correct? 3 A It deals with any vapors, any gases 4 and vapors that come off, yes. 5 Q What is left in the reactor after that 6 material is taken off? 7 A What is left, again, no chemical 8 analysis has been made of the whole thing or 9 the whole bit, but it is predominantly the 10 product that we are striving to produce at 11 that time. 12 Q Which is the chlorinated biphenyls? 13 A Of a given type. 14 Q What, is that a liquid in the 15 production process? 16 A At the temperatures of the process, it 17 is a liquid, yes. 18 Q Where does that liquid go from the 19 reactor? 20 A It goes into a distillation unit. 21 Q Do you recall whether at the Anniston 22 plant there was a step between the reactor and 23 the distillation unit known as a blow tank? 24 A Yes. That expression was used. It is 25 moved by air pressure instead of pumps. And Wm. Papageorge, 10/20/94 Page 93 WATER PCB-SD0000048857 94 1 they push the material into a tank. And in 2 that tank there is a neutralization step that 3 takes place where lime is added to neutralize 4 any residual acid that's still in the batch 5 that hasn't escaped with the vapors. 6 Q Is air also passed through the batch? 7 A Air is blown through initially to 8 sweep out any free acid. You get as much of 9 it as you can blowing air through, and then 10 you get the residual with the lime treatment. 11 Q Where did the air that was blown 12 through the batch discharge to? 13 A It joins the stream that's going to 14 the absorber, the muriatic acid absorber. 15 Q Do you recall that the air from the 16 blow tank was ever scrubbed to the sewer? 17 A No, I do not. 18 Q When you testified that the air went 19 to the muriatic acid absorber, were you 20 referring to the absorber that resulted in the 21 production of muriatic acid as opposed to the 22 acid that resulted in the discharge to the 23 limestone pit? 24 A I was referring to the acid producing 25 unit. Wm. Papageorge, 10/20/94 Page 94 WATER PCB-SD0000048858 95 1 Q So as far as you know, the Anniston 2 plant didn't discharge the air from the blow 3 tank, didn't scrub it to the sewers? 4 A As far as I recall they did not. 5 Q Do you recall ifthat was the case at 6 Krummrich as well? 7 A As I said, I wasn't familiar with the 8 Krummrich system. 9 Q Are you familiar with the development 10 of the numbering system to identify the 11 various aroclor products? 12 A I believe I am. 13 Q How was that numbering system 14 developed? 15 A Since I wasn't there, I really can't 16 tell you. I can tell you what it meant. 17 Q Okay. I will take that. 18 A The 12 refers to the two benzene 19 rings. And the last two digits of the four 20 digit numbering system refers to the percent 21 by weight of chlorine in that mixture. 22 So when you see a reference to aroclor 23 which is the Monsanto trademark for 24 chlorinated aromatics which describes the 25 benzene ring and you see the 12, that says it Wm. Papageorge, 10/20/94 Page 95 WATER PCB-SD0000048859 96 1 is a biphenyl by definition. And then when 2 you say 42 after the 12, that indicates that 3 42 percent ofthat material by weight is 4 chlorine. 5 Q Now, you referred to a product that 6 was known as 1016. What does the -- what do 7 the first two digits ofthat number signify? 8 A Nothing special. The 1016 came from a 9 system used by the research laboratory to 10 identify samples under test of all kinds of 11 materials. So the researcher who was going to 12 work on this material goes to a log book and 13 takes the next number available, which 14 happened to be 1016. And initially that 15 material was studied with the acronym in front 16 of the number of MCS, Monsanto Company Sample 17 1016. 18 Throughout the study of that material 19 and the sending ofthe samples of this 20 material to prospective customers, that whole 21 community in the electrical field referred to 22 this material as 1016. It became a common 23 terminology. 24 When it was finally accepted and ready 25 to be sold as a product, the initial batches Wm. Papageorge, 10/20/94 Page 96 WATER PCB-SD0000048860 97 1 were sold as aroclor 1242B, indicating 2 biodegradable. Immediately that created some 3 concerns because 1242 and 1242B stock was 4 getting mixed up in their warehouses, not only 5 Monsanto's but the customers. The 6 communications became garbled, and it was 7 decided to go back to the 1016 which everybody 8 felt comfortable with. So 1016 does not 9 follow the old designations. 10 Q Doesn't mean 16 percent chlorine by 11 weight? 12 A No, it doesn't. It had the 42 percent 13 chlorine. 14 MR. RICCI: Off the record. 15 (Discussion offthe record) 16 Q (By Mr. Ricci) Now, the various 17 aroclor products, 1242, 1254, consisted of a 18 number of compounds; is that correct? 19 A Yes. 20 Q A number of chlorinated biphenyls? 21 A Correct. 22 Q Did Monsanto analyze the aroclor 23 products to determine which compounds and 24 isomers they consisted of? 25 A At what point in time? Wm. Papageorge, 10/20/94 Page 97 WATER PCB-SD0000048861 98 1 Q Well, at any point in time that you 2 are aware of? 3 A Beginning in the late '60s, the 4 technology was available where the research 5 chemist in particular, as distinguished from 6 the routine analytical chemist, because this 7 was still high-technology, the research 8 chemist could identify the different isomers 9 present in the commercial mixture. 10 Q Prior to that, how did you tell which 11 aroclor you had? 12 A They had what was called the old wet 13 chemistry approach where you analyzed for 14 chlorine. And this is why it was reported as 15 percents of chlorine. 16 Q In the late '60s did Monsanto have the 17 capability to analyze the aroclors for the 18 various isomers that made them up? 19 A Yes. 20 Q And did Monsanto perform those 21 analyses? 22 A Yes. 23 Q Did any of the commercial aroclors 24 contain as a constituent any unchlorinated 25 biphenyl? Wm. Papageorge, 10/20/94 Page 98 WATER PCB-SD0000048862 99 1 A Yes. 2 Q Which aroclorswere those? 3 A I recall the 21 percent version as 4 having some unchlorinated biphenyl in it. I 5 do not recall the others. I would have to see 6 the reports to refresh my memory. I don't 7 recall. 8 Q So that would be aroclor 1221? 9 A Yes. 10 Q Do you recall if any of the higher 11 chlorinated aroclors contained any 12 unchlorinated biphenyl? 13 A No, I don't. All I remember is a 14 listing of a number of chlorines and the 15 percent present, but I just don't remember the 16 zero chlorine. 17 Q Is it -- I'm sorry. I don't know what 18 you mean by zero chlorine. 19 A No chlorine. The biphenyl, straight 20 biphenyl. 21 Q No chlorine on the biphenyl? 22 A Yes. 23 Q Is it fair to say that the higher the 24 percent of chlorination ofthe aroclor, the 25 less likely it would be to include Wm. Papageorge, 10/20/94 Page 99 WATER PCB-SD0000048863 100 1 unchlorinated biphenyl? 2 A Can you help me with the word fair? 3 It has so many definitions. Is it true? 4 Q Is it true? 5 A It is very likely, yes, that it is 6 true. 7 Q So any -- I will leave it at that. 8 What was the next highest chlorinated aroclor 9 that Monsanto produced after 1221? 10 A 1232. 11 Q There wasn't anything that you can 12 recall between 1221 and 1232, any commercial 13 product? 14 A That's true. 15 Q Was 1221 manufactured at the Anniston 16 plant? 17 A On occasion, yes. 18 Q What was the use of 1221 as a product? 19 A Well, it was used as a capacitor fluid 20 and it was also used in some ink formulations, 21 some adhesive mixtures, some coatings, paints 22 and coatings. It was also used in some of the 23 caulking types of materials. 24 Q Biphenyl was another product 25 manufactured at Anniston? Wm. Papageorge, 10/20/94 Page 100 WATER PCB-SD0000048864 101 1 A Yes. 2 Q That biphenyl was used as a raw 3 material in the manufacturing of PCBs? 4 A Yes. 5 Q Was the biphenyl manufactured at 6 Anniston also used as a raw material in 7 Krummrich's manufacture of PCBs? 8 A Yes. 9 Q What other uses were there of biphenyl 10 that was manufactured at Anniston? 11 A It was sold as a product, but at the 12 moment I can't recall who the customers were. 13 I just don't remember. 14 Q And you don't recall the uses? 15 A I do not. 16 Q Sold as a product to other than other 17 Monsanto plants? 18 A Correct. 19 MR. NASSIF: Rich, off the record. 20 (Discussion offthe record) 21 Q (By Mr. Ricci) Another product that 22 was manufactured at -- let me go back for a 23 second. You had testified to some extent 24 earlier about the biphenyl manufacturing 25 process. What were the raw materials in the Wm. Papageorge, 10/20/94 Page 101 WATER PCB-SD0000048865 102 1 manufacture of biphenyl? 2 A Benzene. 3 Q Anything else? 4 A That's it. 5 Q Just benzene? 6 A Yes. 7 Q How was benzene converted to biphenyl? 8 A It is high temperatures and high 9 pressure the biphenyl was formed. 10 Q Were thereany by-products? 11 A Hydrogen. 12 Q What happened to the hydrogen? 13 A It is used to make the hydrogenated -- 14 no. Let me think a bit now. Hydrogen, we 15 used it for something. We used it to make the 16 product called HB40 which is a hydrogenated 17 biphenyl. 18 Q You mentioned that another product 19 manufactured at Anniston was P2S5? 20 A Yes. 21 Q Do you recall that there was a heat 22 exchanger in that manufacturing process that 23 used PCB-containing heat transfer fluids? 24 A Now that you mention it, yes, I do 25 recall it. Wm. Papageorge, 10/20/94 Page 102 WATER PCB-SD0000048866 103 1 Q Do you recall the trade name of the 2 heat transfer fluid that was used in that heat 3 exchanger? 4 A It is one of Monsanto's Therminols, 5 but I don't remember which Roman Numeral 6 followed it. 7 Q Was that Therminol manufactured at 8 Anniston? 9 A Yes. 10 Q And you just shifted basically from 11 the PCB department over to the -- 12 A Just transferred it over, yes. 13 Q -- P2S5 department? 14 A Yes. For the initial fill, and then 15 the makeup later was from drums out of the 16 warehouse. 17 Q Were there ever times when the heat 18 transfer fluid in that heat exchanger became 19 spent and had to be changed out? 20 A I don't recall that. 21 Q Do you recall whether heat transfer 22 fluid from that heat exchanger in the P2S1 23 department was ever discharged to the sewer in 24 Anniston? 25 A Not while I was there. Wm. Papageorge, 10/20/94 Page 103 WATER PCB-SD0000048867 104 1 Q Was any heat transfer fluid from any 2 heat exchanger at the Anniston plant ever 3 discharged to the sewer while you were plant 4 manager? 5 A No. 6 Q How are you certain of that? 7 A First of all, it is a big no-no. We 8 just don't do it that way especially for a 9 plant that has the facilities to either 10 recover it or dispose of it in its landfill, 11 and it would be so obvious for that kind of 12 material to show up in the surrounding 13 environment. 14 Q So from an environmental perspective, 15 you wouldn't view that as a good thing to do? 16 A That's correct. Just to dump all that 17 material on the ground, no. 18 Q Or into the sewer? 19 A Even the sewer. It would show up 20 eventually. Somewhere it is going to show up. 21 Q And it wasn't a situation where they 22 were doing it and you had to stop it. It 23 didn't occur as of the time you got there? 24 A I had no reports that it ever 25 occurred, no. Wm. Papageorge, 10/20/94 Page 104 WATER PCB-SD0000048868 105 1 Q What was the consistency of the heat 2 transfer fluid that was used in that heat 3 exchanger? 4 A I would compare it to the motor oil 5 out of your car. 6 Q As it was employed in the heat 7 transfer system, did its consistency change? 8 A Yes. When new the material is almost 9 clear as water, drinking water, but with use 10 it slowly turns color to a light yellow or a 11 darker yellow. And if it is stressed, and by 12 stressed I mean at temperatures, very high 13 temperatures, it starts to get dark. Just 14 like the motor oil in your car gets dark. It 15 eventually reaches the point where it just 16 gets pretty tarry really, pretty viscous. And 17 this is the point where you decide to drain 18 the system, flush it and then refdl. 19 Q And when that occurred at Anniston, 20 the material that was drained was landfilled? 21 A Well, it depended on how badly it was 22 damaged. In some instances it was put into 23 the still pot to still off the good portion. 24 And the heel then that was left, which gave 25 the dark color and viscosity, would be put Wm. Papageorge, 10/20/94 Page 105 WATER PCB-SD0000048869 106 1 into the landfill. 2 Q And then in other instances if you 3 felt it was too far gone, would you just 4 dispose of it? 5 A Put it in drums and take it to the 6 landfill. 7 Q We had talked about the PCB 8 manufacturing process at Anniston, and I think 9 that we had gotten to the blow tank or the 10 aeration process and then I sort of took you 11 off in a different direction, and I wanted to 12 go back to that to just complete out the 13 manufacturing process for PCBs at Anniston. 14 Where did it go from the aeration and lime 15 neutralization? 16 A It is transferred then to the 17 distillation unit. We take it to the still 18 pot. That still pot has associated with it a 19 vacuum system to draw the vapors that are 20 boiling off out of the pot, and it has a 21 condensing unit. 22 These were air cooled condensers, just 23 like the automobile radiator in your car. The 24 vapors then are boiled off and pass through 25 the condenser and become liquefied again, and Wm. Papageorge, 10/20/94 Page 106 WATER PCB-SD0000048870 107 1 that liquid is collected into a receiving 2 tank. And that liquid is, as I said, clear as 3 drinking water. What's left in the pot then 4 is the pot residue that is hauled to the 5 landfill. 6 Q So the material that comes off the top 7 of the pot is the product? 8 A Correct. 9 Q And, what, as it comes off of the 10 still pot, it is vaporized? 11 A Yes. 12 Q And then it goes through the condenser 13 and that reliquefies it? 14 A Correct. 15 Q And at that point it is the product? 16 A Correct. 17 Q What factors determine whether you are 18 going to get 1221 or 1232 or any ofthe other 19 aroclors? 20 A Well, there are two factors. One is 21 from experience the operators know that after 22 a given time, they are approaching that point 23 in the process where the material they are 24 looking for is ready. So just time alone does 25 that for them. Wm. Papageorge, 10/20/94 Page 107 WATER PCB-SD0000048871 108 1 Q Time in the reactor? 2 A In the reactor. You bubble chlorine 3 to a given amount of biphenyl at a given rate, 4 and you know it takes so many hours before you 5 reach the point where you are almost finished. 6 At that point the operator dips in or taps 7 either through a spigot or through a dipper 8 and gets a sample. 9 He tests that sample by checking its 10 weight, its specific gravity. If it reaches a 11 certain number, he is finished. He turns off 12 the chlorine and goes through all these steps 13 we talked about. 14 From experience they know if they do 15 that just right each time, you will end up 16 with 42 percent, plus or minus a percent or 17 two, or 54 percent and so on. So it is not a 18 research pure chemical. It is an industrial 19 mixture. 20 Q And it is basically dictated by the 21 residence time in the reactor? 22 A Confirmed by the specific gravity. 23 Q Is it also a function of the rate at 24 which the chlorine is fed into the reactor? 25 A Yes, the rate at which the chlorine is Wm. Papageorge, 10/20/94 Page 108 WATER PCB-SD0000048872 109 1 fed determines the time. 2 Q Okay. 3 A The two are related. If you put it in 4 slowly, it takes longer. 5 Q And they just know all this by 6 experience? 7 A And the operating instructions also 8 remind them. 9 MR. RICCI: I think this is a good 10 point to break. 11 (Lunch Recess) 12 Q (By Mr. Ricci) Mr. Papageorge, in the 13 heat transfer unit that was employed in the 14 P2S5 department at Anniston, do you know the 15 components of the heat transfer fluid that was 16 used? 17 A I'm puzzled by the use of the word 18 components. 19 Q I think you testified that there was a 20 Therminol, but you weren't sure which suffix 21 attached to the particular Therminol that was 22 used? 23 A That is correct, yes. 24 Q My question is do you know which 25 aroclors made up that Therminol and whether Wm. Papageorge, 10/20/94 Page 109 WATER PCB-SD0000048873 110 1 there were any components besides aroclors? 2 A The Therminols are 100 percent 3 commercial PCB mixtures. They were designated 4 by the trademark Therminol with Roman Numerals 5 I, II, and III. The Roman Numerals I, II and 6 III refer to one of the commercial aroclor 7 mixtures. Roman Numeral I was aroclor 1242. 8 Roman Numeral II was aroclor 1248, and Roman 9 Numeral III was aroclor 1254. I do not recall 10 which of those were in that particular unit. 11 Q But it would have been one of those 12 three? 13 A Yes. 14 Q You indicated that you were plant 15 manager at Anniston until 1969? 16 A Yes. 17 Q Do you recall when in 1969 you 18 relinquished that post? 19 A The end of the year, December 31. 20 Q What was the next position that you 21 held at Monsanto? 22 A I was designated as manager 23 environmental control located in the St. Louis 24 area. 25 Q How long did you hold that position? Wm. Papageorge, 10/20/94 Page 110 WATER PCB-SD0000048874 Ill 1 A Well, there were several changes in 2 title, but the job in essence -- the job 3 itself ran from the first of the year 1970 to 4 the end of February 1976 as it related to the 5 PCB assignment. 6 Q You testified that you were at least 7 initially manager of environmental control? 8 A Yes. 9 Q And then you said in the St. Louis 10 area. Was that part of your title or was that 11 just where you were located? 12 A No. I was just showing that I was no 13 longer in Anniston. I relocated to the 14 St. Louis area. 15 Q Was that a position at the corporate 16 offices? 17 A Yes. 18 Q And you worked out of company 19 headquarters in St. Louis? 20 A Yes. 21 Q What were your duties and 22 responsibilities in that job? 23 A I was designated as the Monsanto 24 individual to coordinate communications 25 relating to the PCB environmental issues Wm. Papageorge, 10/20/94 Page 111 WATER PCB-SD0000048875 112 1 within Monsanto. Sort of letting the left 2 hand know what the right was doing, and 3 outside of Monsanto with its customers, with 4 the communities, with regulatory agencies, 5 both local and federal, and with university 6 laboratories that were interested in PCBs and 7 the environment. 8 Q Was your job limited to PCBs? 9 A Yes. 10 Q Were you with any particular division? 11 Were you with the chemicals division or 12 another division? 13 A At that time I was with the part of 14 Monsanto referred to as the organic chemicals 15 division. 16 Q Who was your immediate supervisor? 17 A Howard Bergen, B-E-R-G-E-N. 18 Q What was his title? 19 A He was the business director of the 20 functional fluids business group. 21 Q Do you know an individual by the name 22 of Paul Hodges? 23 A Yes. 24 Q Did you work with Mr. Hodges in this 25 position as manager of environmental control? Wm. Papageorge, 10/20/94 Page 112 WATER PCB-SD0000048876 113 1 A I worked with him, yes. 2 Q Did he have responsibilities similar 3 to your own during this time period? 4 A No. 5 Q Was he involved in pollutioncontrol? 6 A Yes. 7 Q What were his responsibilities at that 8 time, to the best of your recollection? 9 A He was to work and advise the plant, 10 work with and advise the plants in matters 11 relating to making the chemicals and impact on 12 the environment at the plant sites. 13 Q He was in an advisory capacity? 14 A It was what we used to call a staff 15 position. It was advisory, yes. 16 Q Did you also work with the plants in 17 that regard? 18 A Certainly. 19 Q Is this the position that you assumed 20 in 1970, was that a position that was 21 specifically created at that time? 22 A Yes. 23 Q Why was that position created? 24 A In the late '60s, there were a few 25 laboratories throughout the world that were Wm. Papageorge, 10/20/94 Page 113 WATER PCB-SD0000048877 114 1 able to detect PCBs in environmental samples. 2 This was totally new to Monsanto as a maker of 3 these PCBs, and it was determined that there 4 was a lot here that we didn't know about, had 5 a lot of learning to do and had some decisions 6 to make. 7 And within Monsanto there were two 8 business groups involved. The functional 9 fluids group that we mentioned earlier with 10 Mr. Bergen in charge, and there was another 11 group referred to as the plasticizer group. 12 Each of these groups had marketing teams, 13 research teams, manufacturing teams, and it 14 became difficult to keep abreast of everything 15 that was developing regarding PCBs in the 16 environment. So it was decided that an 17 individual was needed to, as I said earlier, 18 let the left hand know what the right is 19 doing. 20 And also the issue was developing so 21 rapidly that it required someone to help 22 communicate with the interested parties 23 outside of Monsanto, the regulatory agencies 24 and the laboratories, the customers, so it was 25 decided by top management to create this Wm. Papageorge, 10/20/94 Page 114 WATER PCB-SD0000048878 115 1 position, and I was asked to do that job. 2 Q In 1970 when you took that job, do you 3 know how many domestic manufacturers of PCBs 4 there were? 5 A Well, certainly Monsanto for sure. I 6 had indications that other companies had 7 attempted and were making on occasion some 8 PCBs. I could never establish for sure that 9 the amount of PCBs produced was too 10 significant. So it became one of -- if 11 anything, Monsanto made 99 percent of the 12 material. 13 Q That's in the U.S.? 14 A In the U.S., yes. Now, this does not 15 account for any imported material, which was 16 difficult to track. 17 Q There were foreign producers of PCBs? 18 A Yes. 19 Q Do you know who the most significant 20 foreign producers were? 21 A I think I do. Bayer, B-A-Y-E-R, in 22 Germany, Rhone Poulance in France, Flix in 23 Spain, Caffaro, C-A-F-F-A-R-O, in Italy, 24 Konagafiichi in Japan. And there were 25 producers in Czechoslovakia, Russia. Wm. Papageorge, 10/20/94 Page 115 WATER PCB-SD0000048879 116 1 Q Do you know what Monsanto's market 2 share worldwide was at that time? 3 A No, I don't. 4 Q Were PCBs a profitable product for 5 Monsanto? 6 A They were profitable, yes. 7 Q You indicated that one of the events 8 that led to the creation of this position was 9 the ability to detect PCBs in environmental 10 media in the late '60s; is that correct? 11 A That is correct. 12 Q Did that ability lead to concerns, 13 public concerns, regarding the safety or 14 environmental risks of PCBs? 15 A Well, it raised questions that ran 16 along the lines of now that we see this 17 material in environmental samples, what if 18 anything is it doing to the environment? 19 Q Were there studies in the late '60s 20 that you are aware of that suggested that PCBs 21 were having a detrimental impact on the 22 environment? 23 A In the late '60s, not at that time, 24 no. 25 Q Did such studies become available Wm. Papageorge, 10/20/94 Page 116 WATER PCB-SD0000048880 117 1 subsequently? 2 A Can you help me with such studies? 3 Q Studies suggesting that PCBs were 4 having a detrimental impact on the 5 environment? 6 A There were animal studies made in the 7 laboratories that indicated that the higher 8 chlorinated of the commercial mixtures at the 9 high dose used in the studies did affect the 10 test animals. 11 Q In what way? 12 A There was evidence of an effect on 13 livers of these test animals. There was some 14 evidence that the reproduction process was 15 being affected in terms ofthe size of the 16 pups that were bom and the numbers in the 17 litter. There was also a study that indicated 18 that chickens that were fed PCBs were having 19 reproduction problems as it reflected in the 20 eggs having thin shells and not hatching. 21 Q Do you recall a study coming out of 22 California raising issues regarding the 23 bioaccumulation of PCBs in the environment or 24 the environmental persistence of PCBs as a 25 potential problem? Wm. Papageorge, 10/20/94 Page 117 WATER PCB-SD0000048881 118 1 A I do recall a study by 2 Dr. Riseborough, the pelicans. 3 Q Where was he out of? 4 A Berkeley. University of California, 5 Berkeley. 6 Q How do you spell that? 7 A R-I-S-E-B-O-R-O-U-G-H. 8 Q When was that study? 9 A In the late'60s. I think he 10 published it in either '68 or '69. 11 Q Are you aware of any reaction within 12 Monsanto to this study by Dr. Riseborough? 13 MR. NASSIF: Object to the form of the 14 question. 15 A Well, I'm aware of the fact that 16 Monsanto knew of this study. I personally 17 visited with Dr. Riseborough and his mentor, 18 Professor Alcott, in early 1970. 19 I don't know how else to answer your 20 question. We were aware of it, and we tried 21 to get as much as we could out of it. And 22 what was puzzling in all ofthat is that DDT 23 was involved also, and it was hard to really 24 get a crystal clear picture. 25 Q (By Mr. Ricci) Was the publication of Wm. Papageorge, 10/20/94 Page 118 WATER PCB-SD0000048882 119 1 that study a factor that led to the creation 2 of the position that you assumed in 70? 3 A I can't answer that. I don't know. 4 Q Sounds as if that was one of the first 5 things you looked into once you took that 6 position; is that correct? 7 MR. NASSIF: Object to the form ofthe 8 question. 9 A Well, it was one of the early things 10 that I looked into amongst many other pieces 11 of information. 12 Q (By Mr. Ricci) The position that you 13 held as manager of environmental control you 14 held until February of 76, understanding that 15 the title changed over time? 16 A Yes. There was a title change, but 17 also by 1976, in addition to the PCBs, I had 18 other products that I was assigned starting in 19 about 73. 20 Q What other products were you assigned? 21 A There were so many changes through the 22 two decades that have passed, I'm having a 23 hard time zeroing in on them. 24 Q Give it your best shot. 25 A Some of the products that I mentioned Wm. Papageorge, 10/20/94 Page 119 WATER PCB-SD0000048883 120 1 earlier like maleic anhydride and phthalic 2 anhydride, muriatic acid, caustic chlorine, 3 the products that the plants that I worked in 4 made. They were part ofthe group. 5 Q What were your responsibilities with 6 respect to these other products that were 7 assigned to you over the years? 8 A Well, in a broad way they related to 9 communications to the customer, proper 10 labeling, adequacy of containers, the proper 11 kinds of vehicles in which they were 12 transported, assurances that any analyses that 13 were made were accurately done and that the 14 products met the specifications that were 15 established. That about covers it. 16 Q So by February of '76, you have a 17 number of products that you are responsible 18 for in that area besides PCBs? 19 A Correct. 20 Q What position did you then take in 21 February of'76? 22 A I still had the same type ofjob. I 23 kept the products assigned to me as of 24 February '76, but the PCB issue was 25 transferred to another individual. Wm. Papageorge, 10/20/94 Page 120 WATER PCB-SD0000048884 121 1 Q Who was that? 2 A J.C. Weber. 3 Q Why did that happen? 4 A Well, through the years Monsanto was 5 undergoing several organizational changes. In 6 76, the company had designated the operating 7 units as companies within the corporation. 8 The company to which I was assigned was 9 responsible for a given set of products. The 10 PCBs were not in that group. Mr. Weber had 11 represented the group in which PCBs were 12 included. So after a period in which we 13 shared, sort of wore the hat on both heads, I 14 transferred the situation or the issue to him. 15 Q Were you involved in the decision by 16 Monsanto to discontinue the manufacture of 17 PCBs? 18 MR. NASSIF: Object to the form of the 19 question. 20 A I was tuned in. I was present when a 21 decision was made, yes. 22 Q (By Mr. Ricci) When was that decision 23 made? 24 A Early 76. January is when I was 25 first tuned into that decision. Wm. Papageorge, 10/20/94 Page 121 WATER PCB-SD0000048885 122 1 Q So the decision was made prior to the 2 time that responsibility for PCB was 3 transferred to Mr. Weber? 4 A Correct. 5 Q Why did Monsanto decide to quit 6 manufacturing PCBs? 7 A Well, from the very beginning in 1970 8 when they phased out of PCB uses in sales, the 9 intent was to get out of the PCB business as 10 long as no high risks were taken. In other 11 words, were there acceptable replacement 12 materials that would do the jobs that PCBs 13 did? 14 And by 1976, the only use remaining 15 was the use in electrical equipment. And we 16 had had some indications in '76 and actually 17 in '75 that the electrical equipment 18 manufacturers were almost there in terms of 19 finding replacement material either in 20 material itself or a combination of material 21 plus design changes that the day was coming 22 when PCBs could be withdrawn without creating 23 any major problems. 24 So in answer to your question, a 25 shorter way would be one part of the plan was Wm. Papageorge, 10/20/94 Page 122 WATER PCB-SD0000048886 123 1 to get out when it was responsible to do so. 2 Q When was the plan to get out first 3 developed? 4 A There was no single day. It was an 5 evolving thought process. And it was shared 6 with top management at Monsanto starting in 7 early '70 when the first phases were 8 implemented, the first phase of withdrawing 9 from most of the uses. 10 Q You took the position as manager of 11 environmental control in January of'70? 12 A Yes. 13 Q At that time had a decision been made 14 by Monsanto to begin phasing out uses of PCBs? 15 A Not yet. 16 Q But early in that year a decision was 17 made to begin phasing out PCB uses? 18 A Yes. It was finally approved in May. 19 Q What was finally approved? 20 A The withdraw from PCB businesses. 21 Q Which businesses was the withdraw from 22 approved in May of 1970? 23 A Well, the use in paints, in inks, in 24 caulking, the carbonless copy paper, the 25 beginning of the phase out in hydraulic fluids Wm. Papageorge, 10/20/94 Page 123 WATER PCB-SD0000048887 124 1 and the beginning of the phase out in heat 2 transfer applications. 3 Q Why did Monsanto decide in May of 1970 4 that it wanted to start phasing out its PCB 5 businesses? 6 A There was enough evidence that PCBs 7 were getting into the environment. And since 8 this was perceived to be a man-made chemical, 9 and since it was perceived that there were 10 alternative materials to do the job almost as 11 well, if not as well, that the responsible 12 thing to do was to terminate the sales to 13 those uses that could easily be done without 14 any effect on safety or the environment or any 15 of those undesirable effects. 16 Q So between January of'70 and May of 17 '70, Monsanto basically considered the issue 18 and came to the conclusion to begin phasing 19 out the businesses? 20 MR. NASSIF: Objection. Asked and 21 answered. 22 A Yes. 23 Q (By Mr. Ricci) Were the PCB uses that 24 were phased out at all a function of the risk 25 that those businesses presented for release of Wm. Papageorge, 10/20/94 Page 124 WATER PCB-SD0000048888 125 1 PCBs into the environment? 2 A Certainly. 3 Q Is it fair -- let me withdraw that. 4 Did Monsanto feel in May of 1970 that the use 5 of PCBs in paints and inks and caulking and 6 carbonless paper, hydraulic fluids, and heat 7 transfer fluids presented a greater 8 possibility of releases into the environment 9 than the uses that were not phased out? 10 A Yes. 11 Q And it was Monsanto's goal to reduce 12 the extent to which its PCBs were going to be 13 released into the environment? 14 MR. NASSIF: I object to the form of 15 the question. 16 A I'm having a little difficulty with 17 the word extent. It is the perceived ease 18 with which some ofthose uses could lend entry 19 into the environment. Like the yellow or 20 white line on your highway. It is in the 21 environment the minute it is applied, so 22 that's the kind of thinking that went on. 23 Whereas, the heat transfer application 24 was perceived to be a closed system if it is 25 properly run and maintained, but at the same Wm. Papageorge, 10/20/94 Page 125 WATER PCB-SD0000048889 126 1 time it was perceived that we better get out 2 of the food uses such as heating the oil to 3 fry the potato chips in. So that was the 4 beginning of the program, food use first and 5 then later the others. I don't know how else 6 to explain that except that it was dependent 7 on the benefits versus the risks of 8 environmental damage. 9 Q I think you used the phrase closed 10 application? 11 A Yes. 12 Q Explain the distinction between an 13 open application and a closed application. 14 MR. NASSIF: Object. Asked and 15 answered. 16 A Well, I would suggest let me give some 17 examples that occur to me. The presence of 18 PCBs inside a steel tank that makes the body 19 of an electrical transformer is perceived to 20 be a closed system, whereas the presence of 21 PCBs in the varnish that's used to paint the 22 walls ofthis conference room is perceived to 23 be an open system, open to the environment. 24 Or the use of PCBs in the carbonless copy 25 paper that is thrown into the trash basket Wm. Papageorge, 10/20/94 Page 126 WATER PCB-SD0000048890 127 1 eventually, that's considered an open system, 2 easy entry into the environment. 3 Q So the open systems were the systems 4 that presented easier entrance into the 5 environment. And the closed system is a more 6 circuitous potential for entry into the 7 environment? 8 A I don't know about circuitous. In one 9 there is no way to control, like the 10 carbonless copy paper even under the best of 11 intentions. Whereas, a well run heat transfer 12 system can be controlled. 13 Q Now, in February of'76 when this 14 division occurred that resulted in your 15 relinquishing responsibility for PCBs, did you 16 maintain the same job title? 17 A Yes. 18 Q And how long did you hold that 19 position? 20 A Until about -- it was 1977 as best I 21 recall. About September or so of 1977. 22 Q And what position did you take then? 23 A I was then appointed as director of 24 environmental operations of the Monsanto 25 intermediate chemicals company. Wm. Papageorge, 10/20/94 Page 127 WATER PCB-SD0000048891 128 1 Q Director of environmental operations? 2 A Yes. 3 Q For Monsanto intermediate? 4 A Intermediate chemicals. 5 Q How long did you hold that position? 6 A About 1983 roughly. 7 Q What were your duties and 8 responsibilities in that position? 9 A I was responsible for monitoring, 10 guiding the plants assigned to that operating 11 company as it related to the manufacture of 12 the chemicals at those plants, the shipping of 13 the products to the various customers and for 14 the workplace safety and health ofthe 15 workers. 16 Q Was the Krummrich plant included in 17 the plants that you were responsible for? 18 A Yes. 19 Q Did part of your responsibilities in 20 that position include interfacing with 21 governmental agencies on environmental issues? 22 A It included interfacing with federal 23 agencies, not the local or state. 24 Q Who was responsible for dealing with 25 local and state environmental issues during Wm. Papageorge, 10/20/94 Page 128 WATER PCB-SD0000048892 129 1 that time period? 2 A The plants in that locality are state. 3 Q Was there a position by this time in 4 the plants that encompassed responsibility for 5 environmental issues? 6 A There were individuals assigned to 7 that. I don't know if there was any one 8 position and one title. It varied with each 9 plant. The plant manager made the decision on 10 how he would manage that part of his 11 responsibilities. 12 Q As director of environmental 13 operations, did you have people at the plant 14 level who reported to you? 15 A No. 16 Q Did you have your own staff? 17 A Yes. 18 Q Did your staff deal with people at the 19 plant level? 20 A Yes. 21 Q Was there direct reporting 22 responsibility from the plant level to your 23 staff? 24 A Well, there was a communication 25 responsibility. I'm accustomed to the use of Wm. Papageorge, 10/20/94 Page 129 WATER PCB-SD0000048893 130 1 the world reporting as indicating not only do 2 you communicate but the one individual has 3 responsibility for salary administration and 4 hiring and firing. That didn't occur. It was 5 a communication responsibility. 6 Q And who did you report to? 7 A I reported to a general manager of 8 technology in the chemical intermediate 9 company. 10 Q What was his name? 11 A Miron Dymytrysyn. 12 Q Did you have any involvement in any 13 environmental issues involving the Krummrich 14 plant during the time that you were director 15 of environmental operations? 16 A My involvement was really one of 17 communications. I would rely on my staff to 18 keep me posted of any, I'm going to call them 19 problem areas in terms of what are the issues? 20 Who is addressing them? Are the resources 21 available? Is it getting enough attention? 22 Those kind of communications would occur. 23 Q Did you have one individual on your 24 staff who was responsible for the Krummrich 25 plant, or was there some other way that Wm. Papageorge, 10/20/94 Page 130 WATER PCB-SD0000048894 131 1 authority was divided? 2 A There was always one individual, but 3 the individual would change through the years. 4 Q Do you recall which individuals during 5 the time from 77 to '83 had responsibility 6 for the Krummrich plant, individuals on your 7 staff? 8 A Help me with which field. The 9 product, the industrial hygiene employee, or 10 the environmental impact? 11 Q Let's start with environmental impact. 12 A Environmental impact, starting in 77 13 Mike Pierle was the first one. And he was 14 eventually in about 79 replaced by Mike 15 Weisher. And he was eventually -- let me 16 think now. Eventually he was replaced by 17 another Mike, Mike Foresman. 18 Q When you became director of 19 environmental operations, did you replace 20 somebody who had that position? 21 A No. That was a new position. 22 Q Do you recall any specific 23 environmental issues relating to the Krummrich 24 plant that you dealt with during the time that 25 you were director of environmental operations? Wm. Papageorge, 10/20/94 Page 131 WATER PCB-SD0000048895 132 1 MR. NASSIF: Object as vague. 2 A I'm having a difficult time because 3 there is always something in the environmental 4 field going on all the time depending on what 5 happens at the plant, what products you are 6 making, what are the local authorities 7 requesting, so there is always some kind of 8 issue bubbling, if you will. 9 Q My question really is whether you 10 remember any specific issues that affected or 11 impacted the Krummrich plant during the time 12 that you were director of environmental 13 operations? 14 MR. NASSIF: Same objection. 15 A I don't know if it is responsive. For 16 example, when the plant wanted to install an 17 incinerator, they had to communicate with the 18 authorities in the Illinois EPA, perform the 19 necessary testing and what have you that the 20 agency requested, and eventually it resulted 21 in getting the permit. That's the kind of 22 activity that my staff would monitor and 23 report back. 24 Q Did they install an incinerator at 25 Krummrich during the time that you were Wm. Papageorge, 10/20/94 Page 132 WATER PCB-SD0000048896 133 1 director of environmental operations? 2 A No. It was before, but that's an 3 example of the kind of activity that I in my 4 mind defined as environmental issue. Let me 5 think. I know that we were concerned about 6 losses -- well, let me think the timing here 7 again. '76, '77, nothing comes to mind in '77 8 and after. I just don't remember anything 9 outstanding. 10 Q You held the position of director of 11 environmental operations until '83; is that 12 correct? 13 A I was director of environmental 14 operations for the intermediate chemicals 15 company. 16 Q Until '83? 17 A Until'83. 18 Q What was the next position that you 19 held with Monsanto? 20 A It was the same title but it was for 21 the Monsanto industrial chemicals company. 22 Q Industrial chemicals? 23 A Industrial chemicals. 24 Q And when did you assume that position? 25 A Sometime in 1983. I think it was the Wm. Papageorge, 10/20/94 Page 133 WATER PCB-SD0000048897 134 1 summer of '83. I'm not positive. 2 Q How long did you hold that position? 3 A Until the end of'85. 4 Q Was the Krummrichplant within your 5 jurisdiction as director of environmental 6 operations for Monsanto industrial chemicals? 7 A Yes. 8 Q Was intermediate chemicalsa division 9 of industrial chemicals? 10 A No. It was an operating unit on its 11 own at the time. 12 Q Was the Krummrich plant shifted from 13 intermediate chemicals to industrial chemicals 14 or was this another reorganization? 15 A It was a reorganization, and the unit 16 that used to be called intermediate chemicals 17 was disbanded so to speak, no longer existed. 18 And the plants that used to be in the 19 intermediate chemicals unit were transferred 20 to other existing units. 21 Q So industrial chemicals was a unit 22 that was in existence when you were director 23 of environmental operations for intermediate 24 chemicals? 25 A That is right. Wm. Papageorge, 10/20/94 Page 134 WATER PCB-SD0000048898 135 1 Q Did you replace somebody as director 2 of environmental operations for industrial 3 chemicals? 4 A Yes. 5 Q Who? 6 A Clayton Callis. 7 Q Did your duties and responsibilities 8 as director of environmental operations for 9 industrial chemicals change at all in terms of 10 the nature of your duties? 11 A The nature did not change, no. The 12 different set of plants, some of which were in 13 both units, and additional chemicals were 14 involved. 15 Q Was the Krummrich plant -- let me try 16 again. Were all the products manufactured at 17 the Krummrich plant within intermediate 18 chemicals and then within industrial 19 chemicals? 20 A No. 21 Q So there were other operating 22 companies that also had jurisdiction over some 23 of the products manufactured at Krummrich? 24 A Yes. 25 Q Which chemicals were you responsible Wm. Papageorge, 10/20/94 Page 135 WATER PCB-SD0000048899 136 1 for or fell within your group as director for 2 environmental operations for intermediate 3 chemicals? 4 MR. NASSIF: Which chemicals? From 5 the Krummrich plant or all over? 6 Q (By Mr. Ricci) Krummrich. 7 A Again, I cannot recall all ofthem, 8 but many of those we have discussed today, the 9 phenol, the chlorinated phenols. 10 Q Chlorinated benzenes? 11 A Chlorinated benzenes, the benzyl 12 chloride, all ofthe chemicals we discussed 13 today are still included. 14 Those that were not included we have 15 not mentioned so far today, and they included 16 -- and I forget the exact chemicals, but they 17 were considered to belong to the agriculture 18 chemicals company. They were manufactured at 19 the Krummrich plant. 20 Q Were the chemicals that fell within 21 intermediate -- were the chemicals from the 22 Krummrich plant that fell within intermediate 23 chemicals the same chemicals that then shifted 24 to industrial chemicals? 25 A Yes. Wm. Papageorge, 10/20/94 Page 136 WATER PCB-SD0000048900 137 1 Q How long were you the manager, or I'm 2 sorry, the director of environmental 3 operations for industrial chemicals? 4 MR. NASSIF: Asked and answered. He 5 said the end of'85. 6 MR. RICCI: Thank you. 7 Q (By Mr. Ricci) What was the next 8 position that you held? 9 A Another reorganization. I was then 10 made manager occupational health in Monsanto 11 chemical company. 12 Q And how long did you hold that 13 position? 14 A Until I retired at the end of'86. 15 Q Going back to the position of director 16 of environmental operations for intermediate 17 chemicals, I had asked you whether your 18 responsibility included interfacing with 19 governmental agencies. And I think you 20 replied that it did with respect to the 21 federal government but not with respect to 22 state and local governments. Do you recall 23 that? 24 A That is correct. 25 Q Did you nevertheless have oversight Wm. Papageorge, 10/20/94 Page 137 WATER PCB-SD0000048901 138 1 responsibility for the plant dealings with 2 state and local government agencies on 3 environmental issues? 4 MR. NASSIF: Objection. Asked and 5 answered. 6 A Can you help me with oversight? 7 Q (By Mr. Ricci) To the extent that 8 state or local environmental issues were 9 presented at the plant level, did you or your 10 department have any responsibility in helping 11 the plants work through those issues? 12 A We were available to assist them if 13 they should run into any kinds of 14 difficulties. 15 And by difficulties I'm talking about 16 do they need people like another chemist or an 17 engineer or do they need funding for some 18 activity or to back them up in terms of what 19 is going on in other states and how are the 20 other plants coping? So the communications 21 function as well as an ability to be able to 22 go to their bosses to ask for more funding, 23 more people, whatever it took to respond. 24 Q And would that be true as well in 25 industrial chemicals when you were director of Wm. Papageorge, 10/20/94 Page 138 WATER PCB-SD0000048902 139 1 environmental operations for industrial 2 chemicals? 3 A Yes. 4 Q Did you have authority to authorize 5 expenditures at any level for environmental 6 projects at the plants? 7 A No. 8 Q Where did that authority resign? 9 A Well, it depended on the amount of 10 money that was being requested. I have 11 forgotten the ground rules that existed at the 12 time, but the plant manager was able to 13 approve up to a certain level. And if he 14 exceeded that level, he then went to the 15 director of manufacturing who was his boss. 16 And again, if that exceeded, he would go to 17 the vice president in charge of the operating 18 company and on up the ladder. 19 Q You did not have a rung on that ladder 20 though? 21 A No, sir. All I could do was speak in 22 support of a project that I believed in and 23 would go in and put my two cents worth in, so 24 to speak. 25 Q During the time that you were director Wm. Papageorge, 10/20/94 Page 139 WATER PCB-SD0000048903 140 1 of environmental operations for intermediate 2 chemicals, who was the plant manager at 3 Krummrich? 4 A Intermediate, Jerry Bratsch. 5 Q Do you recall dealing with Mr. Bratsch 6 on any specific environmental issues during 7 that time period? 8 MR. NASSIF: Objection. He has 9 already testified he doesn't recall any 10 specific environmental issues at the Krummrich 11 facility. 12 A I do not. 13 Q (By Mr. Ricci) You can answer the 14 question. 15 A I do not. 16 Q And who was the plant manager during 17 the time that you were director of 18 environmental operations? 19 A For intermediates? 20 Q Yes. I'm sorry. For industrial 21 chemical? 22 A Industrial, I believe by that time it 23 was Robert Flint. 24 Q He was the plant manager at Krummrich? 25 A Yes. Now, I may have my years off a Wm. Papageorge, 10/20/94 Page 140 WATER PCB-SD0000048904 141 1 bit, but that's the sequence. 2 Q Do you recall dealing with Mr. Flint 3 on any environmental issues during that time 4 period? 5 MR. NASSIF: Objection. Asked and 6 answered. 7 A I do not. 8 Q (By Mr. Ricci) Are there any other 9 plant managers -- let me rephrase that. Do 10 you recall any other plant managers for the 11 Krummrich plant besides Mr. Flint and 12 Mr. Bratsch for the periods September '77 13 through December of'85? 14 A Mr. Molloy was involved in there, but 15 1 don't recall just what years, Jack Molloy. 16 1 know he was there in '86. He was probably 17 there in '85. He might have been there in 18 '84, the latter part of my involvement with 19 Monsanto. 20 Q Do you recall dealing with Mr. Molloy 21 on any environmental issues? 22 MR. NASSIF: Objection. Asked and 23 answered. 24 A Nothing stands out in my mind. 25 Q (By Mr. Ricci) What were your duties Wm. Papageorge, 10/20/94 Page 141 WATER PCB-SD0000048905 142 1 and responsibilities as manager of 2 occupational health for Monsanto Chemical 3 Company? 4 A I was to serve as the Monsanto 5 Chemical Company representative in working 6 with the corporate industrial hygienists who 7 in turn were available for advice and counsel 8 to the chemical plants assigned to the 9 chemical company. And this is about 20 or 30 10 plants throughout the country. 11 Q Were your responsibilities exclusively 12 related to issues of industrial hygiene, 13 worker safety, that kind of thing? 14 A Yes. 15 Q And then you retired? 16 A Yes. 17 Q Have you ever had your deposition 18 taken before? 19 A Yes. 20 Q How many times? 21 A I have never kept a record, but since 22 1973 it has been at least a couple dozen, 23 maybe approaching 30 depositions. 24 Q Have you ever testified in Court? 25 A Yes. Wm. Papageorge, 10/20/94 Page 142 WATER PCB-SD0000048906 143 1 Q How many occasions? 2 A About six or eight times. 3 Q Over what period of time? 4 MR. NASSIF: Objection. Asked and 5 answered. 6 MR. RICCI: He didn't answer that 7 because I didn't ask it. 8 MR. NASSIF: He said since 1973. 9 MR. RICCI: That was to the question 10 how many times he had been deposed. 11 A As I remember, the earliest trial was 12 about '73 or '74, also somewhere in that 13 period of time. 14 Q (By Mr. Ricci) And when was the most 15 recent? 16 A This past August. 17 Q With respect to the 30 or so times 18 that you have been deposed, do you know if you 19 have been designated as an expert witness in 20 any of those cases? 21 A I don't recall ever being offered as 22 an expert, no. 23 Q And similarly with respect to the 24 times that you have testified in Court, do you 25 know if you have been designated as an expert Wm. Papageorge, 10/20/94 Page 143 WATER PCB-SD0000048907 144 1 witness? 2 A I have not. 3 Q In any of the cases -- well, let me 4 ask you this. Were you -- for the six to 5 eight times that you have testified in Court, 6 were you also deposed in those cases? 7 A Not in every case, no. 8 Q So there have been times when you have 9 testified in Court when you haven't been 10 deposed? 11 A That is correct. 12 Q And obviously there have been times 13 when you have been deposed that you haven't 14 ended up testifying in Court? 15 A That is correct. 16 Q With respect to the 30 or so times 17 that you have been deposed, have any of those 18 cases related to issues involving the 19 Krummrich plant? 20 A No. 21 Q In any of the instances where you have 22 testified in Court, have any of those cases 23 involved the Krummrich plant? 24 A No. 25 Q In any of the instances where you have Wm. Papageorge, 10/20/94 Page 144 WATER PCB-SD0000048908 145 1 been deposed, did any of those cases involve 2 PCBs? 3 A Yes. 4 Q Approximately how many? 5 A All of them. 6 Q How about the six to eight times that 7 you have testified at trial? Have those all 8 also involved PCBs? 9 A Yes. 10 Q Did any of the cases where you have 11 been deposed relate to recovery of costs for 12 cleanup of PCBs, environmental cleanup of 13 PCBs? 14 A Yes. 15 Q Can you tell me how many? 16 A The reason I'm hesitating is I have a 17 little difficulty relating cleanup with 18 replacement of equipment voluntary by the 19 owner of the equipment and then seeking 20 reimbursement for that cost. I don't know 21 that that's a cleanup or whether it comes 22 under some other description. 23 Q Let me try it from a different 24 direction. When you first became manager of 25 environmental control back in '70, not when Wm. Papageorge, 10/20/94 Page 145 WATER PCB-SD0000048909 146 1 you first became that -- not when you first 2 assumed that position, but during the time 3 that you held that position, did Monsanto 4 develop a program to take PCB-containing 5 materials back from its customers? 6 A There was a program for some of the 7 PCB materials being returned for disposal by 8 Monsanto, yes. 9 Q Have any ofthese cases that you have 10 testified in either by deposition or trial 11 testimony involved that program? 12 A No. 13 Q Have you testified in any cases 14 regarding environmental cleanup of PCBs which 15 I will define as dealing with PCBs in water, 16 soil or sediments as opposed to equipment? 17 A Yes. 18 Q Approximately how many? 19 A I recall one. 20 Q What was that case about? 21 A This was a situation where hydraulic 22 fluids containing PCBs were found in some soil 23 in a drainage ditch from a customer's plant. 24 The customer was in a position where he had to 25 clean up because the authorities requested Wm. Papageorge, 10/20/94 Page 146 WATER PCB-SD0000048910 147 1 that, and this customer then tried to get 2 Monsanto to reimburse them for those costs. 3 Q What was the nature of your testimony? 4 A Sort of generally about PCBs, the 5 environment, the kinds of labels. Very broad 6 kind of testimony. 7 Q Did that case go to trial? 8 A Yes. 9 Q And you testified at the trial? 10 A Yes. 11 Q Have you ever testified regarding the 12 persistence of PCBs in the environment? 13 A Yes. 14 Q How many occasions? 15 A I would suggest just virtually every 16 deposition touches on that subject. 17 Q What's your understanding as to the 18 persistence of PCBs into the environment? 19 A They are quite persistent. 20 Q Meaning what? 21 A They don't disappear. 22 Q Ever? 23 A Well, ever is an awfully long time. 24 It is dependent really on some other factors 25 like concentration, the presence of bacteria, Wm. Papageorge, 10/20/94 Page 147 WATER PCB-SD0000048911 148 1 the presence of light, the presence of any 2 other chemicals, moisture and so on. But for 3 just generally high concentrations, they can 4 be found there generations later. 5 Q Are there particular chemicals that 6 you are aware ofthat can facilitate the 7 breakdown or degradation of PCBs in the 8 environment? 9 A I'm not aware of any. 10 Q Have you ever looked into that 11 question? 12 A Have I personally looked into it? 13 Q Yes. 14 A I have asked around at different 15 laboratories that were involved. I do know 16 that some work has been done in it. I have 17 read that there are some promising hints that 18 it is possible, but that's as far as I have 19 gotten. 20 Q Did Monsanto produce PCBs any place 21 besides Krummrich and Anniston? 22 A Yes. 23 Q Where else? 24 A In Newport, Wales, in the United 25 Kingdom. And they had a joint venture in Wm. Papageorge, 10/20/94 Page 148 WATER PCB-SD0000048912 149 1 Japan with the Mitsubishi Company. 2 Q Production was in Japan? 3 A Yes. 4 Q Did those plants employ basically the 5 same manufacturing process as was employed in 6 Krummrich? 7 A Basically, yes. 8 Q Were all ofthe finished aroclor 9 products liquids? 10 A No. 11 Q Which were not liquid? 12 A When you said aroclor, that covered 13 the terphenyls also. 14 Q Okay. Let's focus on the PCBs. 15 A The PCBs? 16 Q Right. 17 A Aroclor 1268 and 72 were solids. 18 Q What were those produced for? 19 A They were used in addition as 20 additions to primarily plastic materials, and 21 they served the primary purpose of making them 22 fire retardant. 23 Q Were they solid or were they soft? 24 A They were solid. As so, they look 25 like table salt. They were ground up in the Wm. Papageorge, 10/20/94 Page 149 WATER PCB-SD0000048913 150 1 machinery and bagged. 2 MR. RICCI: Let's go off the record. 3 (Discussion off the record) 4 Q (By Mr. Ricci) Mr. Papageorge, are 5 you familiar with a body of water known as 6 Dead Creek? 7 A Yes. 8 Q When did you first become familiar 9 with Dead Creek? 10 A As I recall, I heard the expression 11 Dead Creek when I was working at the Krummrich 12 plant. That's my first exposure to the 13 terminology. 14 Q That was in? 15 A '64. 16 Q '64, '65 around there? 17 A Yes, '64. That was my first contact. 18 Q What was the nature of your contact or 19 familiarity with Dead Creek at that time? 20 A I don't recall anything unique about 21 it except other features of the area. 22 Q Did you understand it to be in close 23 proximity to the Krummrich plant? 24 A Nearby. lust how far I don't know. I 25 didn't go look at it. Wm. Papageorge, 10/20/94 Page 150 WATER PCB-SD0000048914 151 1 Q Do you have any understanding as to 2 whether Dead Creek was in any way connected to 3 the Monsanto sewer system or the Village of 4 Sauget sewer system? 5 A No. I knew nothing about the 6 connection. 7 Q When you went to work at the Krummrich 8 plant in '64 or '65, was the village in which 9 the plant is located known as Monsanto or 10 Sauget? 11 A Sauget. 12 Q When was the next time you heard the 13 term Dead Creek? 14 A Sometime in the '70s. Let me think a 15 minute. It might have been the'80s. The 16 date slips me. Anyway, I recall hearing about 17 a dog that had been in that -- in an area 18 called Dead Creek that had lost its fur and 19 had sores on its body and eventually died. 20 That's roughly the second time I heard the 21 expression Dead Creek. 22 Q Do you recall what position you held 23 when you heard the tale of the dog? 24 A I was a director of environmental 25 operations. The chemical -- let me think -- Wm. Papageorge, 10/20/94 Page 151 WATER PCB-SD0000048915 152 1 chemical intermediate company. 2 Q So it was sometime between 77 and 3 '83? 4 A Yes. Yes, about 1980. 5 Q Did you leam ofthat incident in your 6 official capacity? Was it reported to you by 7 someone on your staff, for instance? 8 A Yes. 9 Q How was it recounted to you? 10 A Oh, I don't recall the exact scenario. 11 Q Let me be more specific. Was it 12 recounted to you as an environmental issue 13 that Monsanto should be concerned about? 14 A Well, I don't know the word concern 15 was used, but since it appeared to be an 16 exposure to some kind of chemicals and it was 17 fairly near our plant, that there should be 18 some study made or at least look into it. And 19 the plant was already involved in looking into 20 it to some degree. 21 Q Before the incident with the dog, the 22 plant had been involved in -- 23 A No, no. After they heard ofthe dog's 24 demise, the message got to the plant. And I 25 don't know how that happened. The plant Wm. Papageorge, 10/20/94 Page 152 WATER PCB-SD0000048916 153 1 people started taking some kind of actions. 2 Q Did the plant start taking those 3 actions before you were advised of the 4 incident? 5 A Almost simultaneously the report came 6 back to my staff member and the plant was 7 already organizing or doing something. What 8 they were doing I don't recall at the moment. 9 Q Who was the staff member who reported 10 it to you? 11 A Either Mike Weisher or Mike Foresman. 12 One of the two Mikes. 13 Q Did you or your department take any 14 steps in response to this incident? 15 A My staff member made it a point to go 16 to the plant and get closer to the source of 17 his information. They were tuned in as much 18 as was appropriate in terms of what is it the 19 home office can do to help kind of thing and 20 yet get out of the way so they could do their 21 job, which is typical of the kinds of support 22 we try to give. 23 Q Can you tell me where this 24 investigation went, where it led to or whether 25 it was resolved in any way? Wm. Papageorge, 10/20/94 Page 153 WATER PCB-SD0000048917 154 1 A As I remember, there were some 2 analyses made, and the end result, as I 3 recall, was that the analyses did not indicate 4 that the plant chemicals were involved, so the 5 plant really was in no position to do anything 6 else. 7 Q Do you know what the analysis or 8 investigation consisted of? 9 A Other than samples were taken and 10 analyzed, I don't know any of the details. 11 Q Do you know whether the IEPA was in 12 any way involved in the investigation that 13 ensued from the dog dying? 14 A The Illinois EPA was involved. I 15 don't know the degree of involvement or type. 16 Q When was the next time that you heard 17 anything about Dead Creek? 18 A There were reports relating to that 19 incident over a period of time, so I don't 20 know what you mean by next time. 21 Q I'm talking about not related to that 22 particular incident. 23 A Not related, I don't think I heard of 24 Dead Creek mentioned as it related to any 25 other matter. Wm. Papageorge, 10/20/94 Page 154 WATER PCB-SD0000048918 155 1 Q During the time that you worked at the 2 Krummrich facility in the '60s, did you ever 3 hear any talk or reference regarding Dead 4 Creek as a receptacle of Monsanto waste? 5 A No. 6 (Plaintiff Deposition Exhibit Number 2 7 marked for identification.) 8 Q (By Mr. Ricci) Mr. Papageorge, let me 9 show you a document that's been marked as 10 Exhibit 2 to your deposition. 11 For the record, this is a document 12 with Bates No. CER 010901 through 902, M4317 13 through M4318. And I would ask you to take a 14 look at that. 15 A I have read the article. 16 Q This is a January 23, 1969, memo from 17 Mr. Hodges to Mr. Wright and Mr. Buckley. And 18 the document shows you as being copied. Do 19 you see that? 20 A I do. 21 Q Did you receive a copy ofthis 22 document in January of 1969? 23 A I don't recall receiving it, but I do 24 see my name as listed as a recipient of a 25 carbon copy. Wm. Papageorge, 10/20/94 Page 155 WATER PCB-SD0000048919 156 1 Q Do you have any reason to believe that 2 you did not receive it? 3 A No more so than I did receive it. I 4 just don't recall it. 5 Q In January of 1969, you were the plant 6 manager at Anniston, correct? 7 A That is correct. 8 Q Who is Mr. Wright? 9 A Mr. Wright was the plant environmental 10 engineer. 11 Q And do you know what Mr. Hodges' 12 position was in January of'69? 13 A Yes. He was the environmental manager 14 reporting at the organic chemicals division 15 level back at the corporate offices. 16 Q Were the Anniston and Krummrich plants 17 within the organic chemicals division? 18 A Yes. 19 Q Do you recall Mr. Hodges having any 20 involvement with the environmental issues 21 relating to PCBs during this time period? 22 A Yes. 23 Q And did you deal with Mr. Hodges at 24 all during this time period with respect to 25 PCBs in the environment? Wm. Papageorge, 10/20/94 Page 156 WATER PCB-SD0000048920 157 1 A Did I personally? 2 Q Yes. 3 A No. 4 Q You don't recall having any contacts 5 with Mr. Hodges? 6 A Well, I had contacts with him on other 7 matters when he would visit the plant and so 8 on, but I didn't have anything specific with 9 PCBs. 10 Q Could you review quickly the first 11 sentence ofthe first paragraph of this memo. 12 A I have read it. 13 QMr. Hodges refers to a likelihood that 14 attention will be focused on the presence of 15 aroclors in natural waters. Do you know what 16 led to his conclusion that such a likelihood 17 existed? 18 A I believe I do. 19 Q And what is that? 20 A By this time, January '69, the ability 21 to analyze for PCBs in water at very low 22 levels was fairly well established by Monsanto 23 and a few other laboratories throughout the 24 world. The interpretation of that kind of 25 information was such that this skill would be Wm. Papageorge, 10/20/94 Page 157 WATER PCB-SD0000048921 158 1 learned by others. And as more samples were 2 studied, the chances were that the PCBs would 3 be found widely spread. That's the thinking 4 that occurred back in '69. 5 Q Was Monsanto one of the first to 6 develop the ability to analyze low level PCBs 7 in environmental media? 8 A It was amongst the first. Of course, 9 the very first were those researchers in 10 Sweden. Shortly after that, the Monsanto 11 chemists and Dr. Riseborough, who we talked 12 about earlier, and at least one or two other 13 laboratories throughout the world were 14 developing this expertise, so Monsanto was 15 amongst that first group of half a dozen or 16 so. 17 Q Did Monsanto share its abilities in 18 this regard with any of those outside of 19 Monsanto who were trying to develop the 20 technology? 21 A Yes. 22 Q Mr. Hodges states that, "We should 23 begin to protect ourselves." 24 Do you know what he is referring to 25 there when he refers to protecting ourselves? Wm. Papageorge, 10/20/94 Page 158 WATER PCB-SD0000048922 159 1 A No. I would have to put myself in his 2 head. You would have to ask him. 3 Q Do you recall any discussions during 4 this time period in which the concept of 5 Monsanto protecting itself came up in the 6 context of PCBs? 7 A Not to my knowledge, no. Not to me. 8 Q In the second paragraph under the 9 heading No. 1, there is a reference to 10 collecting and freezing samples from the 11 entrance to Snow Creek at Anniston. Do you 12 see that? 13 A Yes. 14 Q Do you know what that refers to? 15 A I believe I do. 16 Q What is that? 17 A Snow Creek is a natural ditch that ran 18 -- that runs alongside the Anniston plant 19 boundary. In fact, a little bit is within the 20 plant fence. During the times of heavy 21 rainfalls, as an example, water will wash 22 across the plant and flow into this creek. 23 This rainfall water would, of course, pick up 24 anything that had been spilled on the ground 25 or the pavement or the roadways. And these Wm. Papageorge, 10/20/94 Page 159 WATER PCB-SD0000048923 160 1 materials that the water would pick up would 2 be, of course, present in that water. And 3 that's the purpose of the sample. 4 Q Mr. Hodges referred to the term 5 outfall in that sentence. Do you see that? 6 A I do see that, yes. 7 Q What do you understand the term 8 outfall to mean? 9 A I would equate that to effluent or 10 material leaving the site. 11 Q Was it your understanding that 12 Anniston plant had an outfall to Snow Creek? 13 A The whole plant would drain into Snow 14 Creek. 15 Q During rain storms? 16 A Yes. Yes. 17 Q The plant's process discharges did not 18 go to Snow Creek; is that correct? 19 A No. No, not to my knowledge. 20 Q If you wanted to sample the Anniston 21 plant's discharge to Snow Creek, would you 22 have to do so during a rain event? 23 A Yes. Most of the year it is a dry 24 creek. 25 Q Do you recall doing any such sampling Wm. Papageorge, 10/20/94 Page 160 WATER PCB-SD0000048924 161 1 in response to this memo? Not you personally 2 but you the company? 3 A I recall sampling taking place. Ido 4 not recall whether it is in response to this 5 memo or subsequent to this memo. All I 6 remember is that the sampler was put in place. 7 Q To sample the waters of Snow Creek? 8 A To sample the water, yes, sir. 9 Q Can you turn over to the second page 10 of the Exhibit 2, please. In the first 11 sentence Mr. Hodges discusses a method of 12 proceeding in the event of discovery of the 13 sewering of large amounts of aroclors with a 14 low cost when there is a low cost disposal 15 alternative. Do you see that? 16 MR. NASSIF: You mean the part that 17 says in case you discover sewering? 18 Q (By Mr. Ricci) Right. In case you 19 discover sewering of large amounts with a low 20 cost alternate disposal method, proceed with 21 the cleanup. Do you see that? 22 A I find that sentence to me confusing. 23 I don't know what it is trying to tell me. 24 Q You don't have any recollection of-25 let me ask it a different way. Do you have Wm. Papageorge, 10/20/94 Page 161 WATER PCB-SD0000048925 162 1 any recollection of discovering any sewerings 2 of large amounts of aroclors at the Anniston 3 plant? 4 A No. 5 Q Did you have any contact with anyone 6 at the Krummrich plant regarding what they 7 were doing to follow the suggestions in this 8 memo? 9 A I personally, no. 10 Q Do you know if Mr. Wright did? 11 A I do not. 12 (Plaintiff Deposition Exhibit Number 3 13 marked for identification.) 14 Q (By Mr. Ricci) Mr. Papageorge, let me 15 show you a document that's been marked as 16 Exhibit 3 to your deposition. This is a 17 document with Bates No. CER 011119, M4535. 18 A I have read the exhibit. 19 Q This is a May 12, 1969, memo from 20 Mr. Hodges to a Mr. Kuhn. It has Bates 21 No. CER 011119 through 123, M4535 through 22 M4539. You are shown as being copied on this 23 document; is that correct? 24 A That is correct. 25 Q Do you know who Mr. Kuhn is? Wm. Papageorge, 10/20/94 Page 162 WATER PCB-SD0000048926 163 1 A At that time Mr. Kuhn was the manager 2 of manufacturing for the organic chemicals 3 division. 4 Q You reported to Mr. Kuhn as plant 5 manager? 6 A No. I reported to the director of 7 manufacturing who is not listed here. 8 Q Was Mr. Kuhn above the director of 9 manufacturing in the chain of command? 10 A No. 11 Q Outside of that chain of command? He 12 was not in that chain of command? 13 A He was a staff man over off to the 14 side here reporting to Mr. Hosmer. 15 Q On the second page of the memo under 16 the heading "Work to Minimize Losses at W. G. 17 Krummrich," subparagraph A, "Notes on Aroclors 18 Production Department," paragraph one there is 19 a discussion there of some improvements. In 20 that paragraph, there is a reference to catch 21 pots. Do you know what the catch pots are? 22 A Yes. Those are in essence wide spaces 23 in the line that received the condensate that 24 the mist demisters remove and dribble on down 25 to this pot, and that in turn would accumulate Wm. Papageorge, 10/20/94 Page 163 WATER PCB-SD0000048927 164 1 the material, and that material would be 2 returned to the process. 3 Q Mr. Hodges states, "With the recent 4 years improvements in chlorinator off-gas 5 cooling plus Brink mist eliminators, there is 6 no longer any free aroclor in the HCL off-gas 7 which comes out in catch pots. At one time 8 this was considerable." 9 A Yes. 10 Q Was the -- now, you just testified 11 that the catch pots received the condensate 12 from the condensers; is that correct? 13 A Yes. Actually it is the system which 14 cools the gases coming off the chlorinator, 15 and it goes through a condenser and these mist 16 eliminators. 17 Q Right. 18 A I forgot your question. 19 Q Let me ask it again, or a different 20 one. The condensate that comes out of the 21 condensers goes to the catch pot? 22 A Yes. 23 Q And what about the liquid that's 24 removed by the mist eliminator? Does that go 25 to the catch pot, too? Wm. Papageorge, 10/20/94 Page 164 WATER PCB-SD0000048928 165 1 A Also, yes. 2 Q Now, Mr. Hodges states that there is 3 no longer any free aroclor in the HCL off-gas 4 which comes out in catch pots. Do you know 5 what he is referring to there? 6 A Not at the moment. I would have to 7 see the flow sheet. 8 Q Did you have catch pots down in 9 Anniston, too? 10 A Yes. There were--it is common 11 features in many gas systems, so there are 12 wide spaces in the line to trap liquids. 13 Q He says the catch pots never require 14 draining? 15 A The implication there is that the 16 improvements they made are effective to the 17 point where at the end of the system they 18 don't find any more liquid. It is all 19 returned before that point. 20 Q When you say the end ofthe system, 21 what are you referring to? 22 A I'm not real sure the sequence of 23 where these gases all go, but eventually you 24 end up with, if nothing else, air venting into 25 the atmosphere. I would have to see the flow Wm. Papageorge, 10/20/94 Page 165 WATER PCB-SD0000048929 166 1 sheet. 2 Q Did you ever have to drain your catch 3 pots in Anniston? 4 A I don't remember. 5 Q Flip over to page 3 of Exhibit 3, if 6 you could. 7 A I have it. 8 Q Under Roman Numeral III, subsection A, 9 paragraph 1, there is a reference to free 10 globules of aroclors in Snow Creek. Do you 11 see that? 12 A I see that. 13 Q Do you have any recollection of 14 globules of aroclor in Snow Creek? 15 A I do not. 16 Q Do you have any understanding of what 17 the terms free globules of aroclors refers to? 18 A Well, I have my understanding. I 19 don't know whether this is the author's 20 intent, but to me that means that looking down 21 in that dry creek bed, he sees areas that look 22 to him like what we described earlier, motor 23 oil that just stayed put. They don't move 24 along. They don't soak into the soil. They 25 just sit there. Wm. Papageorge, 10/20/94 Page 166 WATER PCB-SD0000048930 167 1 That's the way I visualize -- that's 2 what I visualize he was looking at, and he 3 interpreted that or the person who reported 4 this interpreted that as being aroclor. You 5 notice the small A there. 6 Q Right. 7 A Instead of the expression PCB, they 8 use aroclor. 9 Q You never saw that? 10 A I didn't see it, no. 11 Q Now, he also states, "We do not know 12 what problem exists in Choccolocco Creek and 13 the Coosa River." I believe you testified 14 earlier that the village waste treatment plant 15 in Anniston discharged into the Choccolocco 16 Creek? 17 A That's my recollection, yes, sir. 18 Q Do you recall what the Coosa River was 19 oris? 20 A That's the river, and the creek flows 21 into the river. 22 Q Choccolocco Creek flows into the Coosa 23 River? 24 A Yes. 25 Q Does Snow Creek flow into one of those Wm. Papageorge, 10/20/94 Page 167 WATER PCB-SD0000048931 168 1 bodies? 2 A In the Choccolocco Creek. 3 Q Can you flip over to the next page, 4 please, page 4 of Exhibit 3. 5 A I have it. 6 Q Under the heading "Work to Reduce 7 Sewering," there is a discussion of a catch 8 tank being installed in the vapor line near 9 the HCL absorber. Do you see that? 10 A I see that. 11 Q Can you tell me what the purpose of 12 that catch tank was? Let me back up. Do you 13 have any recollection of the installation of 14 this catch tank? 15 A I do. And I recall earlier we 16 referred to the fact that there was a stream 17 that contained acidic material that went to a 18 limestone creek. 19 Q Right. 20 A To me this is referring to that same 21 stream. And it is being handled in a 22 different way this time. They are trapping it 23 in a tank, and they are taking it to a 24 landfdl instead of running it through this 25 limestone bed. Wm. Papageorge, 10/20/94 Page 168 WATER PCB-SD0000048932 169 1 Q They are taking the aroclors from the 2 tank; is that correct? 3 A Yes. The aroclors that were present 4 in that tank, correct. 5 Q Why were those aroclors not returned 6 to production? 7 A They were of such a nature in terms of 8 amounts and quality that it would have upset 9 the whole operation. It just wasn't worth the 10 effort. 11 Q What was it about the quality ofthe 12 materials that made them unsuitable for return 13 to production? 14 A They needed a lot of refining. They 15 had a lot of unknown chemicals in them. They 16 just didn't check out at high purity. And the 17 amounts were so small that it was hardly worth 18 the effort. 19 Q Did these aroclors have different 20 constituents than the materials that were 21 captured or removed from the HCL stream from 22 the condensers and the mist eliminator? 23 A Help me with constituents. 24 Q Well, you indicated that these 25 aroclors were not suitable for return to Wm. Papageorge, 10/20/94 Page 169 WATER PCB-SD0000048933 170 1 production, and I believe that you testified 2 earlier that the materials that were removed 3 by the condenser and the mist eliminator were 4 returned to production; is that correct? 5 A Yes. Yes. 6 Q I'm trying to find out how these 7 aroclors were different than the aroclors or 8 the materials that were removed by the mist 9 eliminator and the condenser. 10 A I don't recall all the chemical 11 details, but I do recall that these were 12 highly colored, almost black. The analytical 13 methods at the time did not give us the 14 information regarding exactly what kinds of 15 chemicals were in there, but then again the 16 amounts were so small that it was perceived to 17 be unwise to introduce this highly 18 contaminated liquid stream, which was very 19 small compared to the billions of pounds made, 20 that you are better offjust burying it. 21 Q There is a statement that a coalescer 22 is being installed to capture aroclor globules 23 in the crude muriatic acid. Do you see that? 24 A I see that. 25 Q Are we referring here to the same Wm. Papageorge, 10/20/94 Page 170 WATER PCB-SD0000048934 171 1 stream that ended up going to the limestone 2 neutralization ditch? 3 A Yes. 4 Q And that's the crude muriatic acid? 5 A Yes. 6 Q That muriatic acid was not used in 7 production? 8 A No. Was not used. 9 Q What is a coalescer? 10 A There were several designs. It is 11 really sort of a strainer that, well, 12 coalesces all these droplets of oil or PCBs. 13 Sort of fdters them out in a way. 14 Q And those were also landfilled? 15 A Yes. 16 Q For the same reason as the aroclors 17 removed from the catch tank? 18 A That's right. 19 Q Now, paragraph two indicates that no 20 spent aroclor from the -- or indicates that 21 the spent aroclor from the P2S5 operation had 22 been drummed for hauling to landfill for at 23 least the past several years. 24 And I believe that's consistent with 25 your prior testimony as to how the Anniston Wm. Papageorge, 10/20/94 Page 171 WATER PCB-SD0000048935 172 1 plant handled the spent aroclors from the heat 2 exchanger? 3 A That is correct. 4 Q On the next page, paragraph five, it 5 says, "Tank car cleaning -- this is not a 6 problem at Anniston. No heels are drained to 7 the sewer." Do you see that? 8 A Yes, I do. 9 Q What does the term heel refer to? 10 A With every shipment in a tank car, 11 there is always a little bit of liquid left in 12 the bottom of the car. That amount of 13 material is called the heel. It is usually 14 the material that clings to the walls of the 15 vessel as the material is being pumped out. 16 And once the pumping is finished, the pipe 17 lines are sealed off with the valves, and all 18 and the material continues to flow and 19 accumulates at the bottom. 20 Q And does that occur with respect to 21 both -- you refer to tank cars and I assume 22 you mean railcars? 23 A That's what this is talking about, 24 tank car cleaning. This is railcars, but it 25 is true of any tank whether it is fixed or on Wm. Papageorge, 10/20/94 Page 172 WATER PCB-SD0000048936 173 1 wheels. 2 Q Did they do tank car cleaning at 3 Anniston? 4 A On a rare occasion when they found the 5 tank car for some reason highly contaminated 6 with something, a customer used it to haul 7 something else in it, then they would clean 8 it, yes. 9 Q How was it that that cleaning did not 10 result in any sewer discharge? 11 A They drum off the washings and take it 12 to the landfill. 13 Q Was that sort of standard operating 14 procedure at Anniston? 15 A Yes. 16 Q Why was that? 17 A Oh, I don't know when it was 18 established. That was the practice when I got 19 there. 20 Q That was the practice when you got 21 there? 22 A Yes, sir. 23 Q And you continued that practice? 24 A Yes, sir. 25 Q Did you ever consider changing it to Wm. Papageorge, 10/20/94 Page 173 WATER PCB-SD0000048937 174 1 discharge that stuff to the sewer? 2 A No way. 3 Q Why is that? 4 A It was working so well the way we were 5 doing it. Why do that? 6 Q Would there be less materials 7 handling, for instance, if you just drained it 8 to the sewer? 9 A Not that much less. 10 Q Did you feel that it was a more 11 environmentally sound practice to drum it off 12 and landfill it than to drain it to the 13 sewers? 14 A You are asking me to recall my 15 personal thoughts then. I would guess that I 16 found that the practice was working so well 17 and the amounts really are not great, about 18 ten drums at the most, and the trucks were 19 going over there all day long anyway, and I 20 just decided that this was going quite well. 21 Q The last sentence of this memo is, 22 "Comments from recipients of this letter are 23 invited." Do you recall having any comments 24 on this memo? 25 A I do not recall, no. Wm. Papageorge, 10/20/94 Page 174 WATER PCB-SD0000048938 175 1 (Plaintiff Deposition Exhibit Number 4 2 marked for identification.) 3 Q (By Mr. Ricci) Mr. Papageorge, you 4 have just taken a document that's been marked 5 as Exhibit 4 to your deposition. And it is a 6 document with Bates No. CER 013356, M6771. 7 You are welcome to read the whole 8 document. My questions will relate to page 2, 9 Roman Numeral II-A, if you want to save a 10 little time. 11 A I have read Roman Numeral II-A. 12 Q This is an August 21, 1969, memo from 13 Mr. Hodges to a Mr. Hosmer, and you are copied 14 on this memo; is that correct? 15 A That is correct. 16 Q Now, I understand that at the time of 17 this memo you were plant manager at Anniston, 18 correct? 19 A Correct. 20 Q In the paragraph that I just referred 21 you to, there is a discussion of phenol losses 22 to the sewers from the Krummrich plant. Do 23 you see that? 24 A I do. 25 Q My question is whether that paragraph Wm. Papageorge, 10/20/94 Page 175 WATER PCB-SD0000048939 176 1 refreshes your recollection at all as to the 2 nature or amount of phenol losses to the 3 sewers at the Krummrich plant during the time 4 that you were working at the Krummrich plant? 5 A It does not, no. 6 (Plaintiff Deposition Exhibit Number 5 7 marked for identification.) 8 Q (By Mr. Ricci) Mr. Papageorge, let me 9 show you a document that's been marked as 10 Exhibit 5 to your deposition. 11 It is a document with Bates No. CER 12 101865 and 866, M4281 and M4282, and ask you 13 to take a look at it. 14 A I have read it. 15 Q This is a February 11, 1970, memo from 16 Mr. Pierle to a number of individuals. And 17 you also are copied on the document; is that 18 correct? 19 A That is correct. 20 Q Now, in February of 1970, you had 21 taken the position of manager of environmental 22 control? 23 A I had. 24 Q And in that position, you did have 25 some involvement with the control of aroclor Wm. Papageorge, 10/20/94 Page 176 WATER PCB-SD0000048940 Ill 1 losses to the sewers from the Krummrich plant; 2 is that correct? 3 A Yes. 4 Q Do you have any recollection of the 5 issues discussed in this memo? 6 A In a general sort of way. I don't 7 recall the specifics. 8 Q Do you recall that the blow tank at 9 the Krummrich plant was determined to be a 10 major source of losses of aroclors to the 11 sewers? 12 A Not really at this point in time. 13 Q Do you recall that at the Krummrich 14 plant prior to the time ofthis memo the gas 15 coming off of the blow tank was being 16 discharged to the sewer? 17 A I don't think the gas was. I think 18 the gas can't be discharged to the sewer. 19 Some liquid component separated from that gas. 20 Q Do you recall any discharge to the 21 sewer emanating from the blow tank? 22 A Yes. 23 Q And at the Krummrich plant? 24 A Yes. 25 Q And what do you recall what that Wm. Papageorge, 10/20/94 Page 177 WATER PCB-SD0000048941 178 1 discharge entailed? 2 A Well, I don't recall that it had some 3 PCBs in it. 4 Q Is it your recollection that this gas 5 coming off ofthe blow tank was drowned or 6 scrubbed to the sewer? 7 A Yes. 8 Q And 9 A Not the gas itself. Thescrubable 10 components in that gas ended up in the sewer. 11 Q That was not the practice that was 12 followed in the blow tank at the Anniston 13 plant; is that correct? 14 A They had a different system. 15 Q And the system at the Anniston plant 16 resulted in the gas from the blow tank going 17 into muriatic acid production; is that 18 correct? 19 A Yes. 20 Q Do you know why the Krummrich plant 21 dealt with the gas coming off of the blow tank 22 differently than the Anniston plant did? 23 A I do not. 24 Q Do you recall the changes that were 25 installed or made at the Krummrich plant to Wm. Papageorge, 10/20/94 Page 178 WATER PCB-SD0000048942 179 1 remove aroclors from the discharge to the 2 sewer emanating from the blow tank? 3 A I don't recall the specifics. I do 4 recall it as being part of an overall program 5 to keep the PCBs out of the environment, but 6 not the details. 7 Q Now, at the Anniston plant, the blow 8 tank was not a source of PCBs into the 9 environment; is that correct? 10 A That is correct. 11 (Plaintiff Deposition Exhibit Number 6 12 marked for identification.) 13 Q (By Mr. Ricci) Mr. Papageorge, let me 14 show you a document that's been identified as 15 Exhibit 6 to your deposition. 16 This is a document with Bates No. CER 17 013939 and 940, M2904 and M2905, and ask you 18 to take a look at that. 19 A I have read the document. 20 Q This is a March 17, 1970, memo from an 21 E. S. Tucker to Mr. Pierle. Do you see that? 22 A It is. 23 Q Who is E. S. Tucker? 24 A He is the research chemist at 25 Monsanto's general offices who was the lead Wm. Papageorge, 10/20/94 Page 179 WATER PCB-SD0000048943 180 1 individual in developing PCB analytical 2 methodology and supervised the team that did 3 this kind of analysis. 4 Q Had the analysis for PCBs in the 5 environment been perfected by this point, or 6 were they still working on it? 7 A It was certainly perfected from the 8 initial attempts, but the improvements 9 continued through this period and even later. 10 Q The second page of the memo refers to 11 water and sediment sample results. And the 12 results are in concentrations of A-1242 and 13 A-1260. Do you understand A-1242 to be 14 aroclor 1242? 15 A I do. 16 Q And A-1260 tobe aroclor 1260? 17 A Yes. 18 Q Do you know why Mr. Tucker is sampling 19 only for these two aroclors or testing only 20 for those two aroclors? 21 A I don't think that the test is aimed 22 at any specific one. This is what the 23 instrument is telling him. This is the result 24 of his analysis, and he interprets the result 25 as representing these two aroclors. Wm. Papageorge, 10/20/94 Page 180 WATER PCB-SD0000048944 181 1 Q So would it be your understanding that 2 he is looking for the whole family of 3 aroclors, and this is all that he found? 4 A Whatever fingerprint that the graph 5 shows, he will take it and interpret it as 6 being one of the aroclors. 7 (Plaintiff Deposition Exhibit Number 7 8 marked for identification.) 9 Q (By Mr. Ricci) Mr. Papageorge, let me 10 show you a document that's been marked as 11 Exhibit 7 to your deposition. 12 A I have scanned the exhibit. 13 Q This is an April 17, 1970, memo from 14 an R. E. Keller to yourself. Who was R. E. 15 Keller? 16 A Dr. Keller was head of the analytical 17 research function to whom Dr. Tucker reported. 18 Q There is a statement in the second 19 paragraph, "PCBs typical of our aroclor 20 products have been found in," and then it 21 gives a list of places where it was found. 22 What kinds of PCBs were typical of Monsanto's 23 aroclor products? 24 A What he is saying is that what his 25 analytical procedure was showing him was a Wm. Papageorge, 10/20/94 Page 181 WATER PCB-SD0000048945 182 1 graph or a pattern similar to those that 2 Monsanto's products would create in the same 3 instrument under the same procedure. And he 4 reported that presence as equivalent to an 5 aroclor product of one of the series. 6 Q Do you know whether any of the other 7 manufacturers of PCB-containing products were 8 making the equivalent of aroclor 1242 or 1248 9 or 1254 or 1260? 10 A They had roughly the equivalent. The 11 percentages may not be exactly like 12 Monsanto's, but they were close. Instead of, 13 say, 42 percent, say 40 percent, they would 14 call it 50, aroclor 50, for example. It is a 15 competitive product. 16 Q Who was the manufacturer of that? 17 A Konagafuchi in Japan. 18 Q So if -- let me rephrase that. 19 Aroclor 1250 then would not be an aroclor 20 typical of Monsanto's products? Is that a 21 fair statement? 22 A I don't know. 23 MR. NASSIF: You mean based on an 24 analytical technique or just based in the 25 marketplace? Wm. Papageorge, 10/20/94 Page 182 WATER PCB-SD0000048946 183 1 Q (By Mr. Ricci) Based upon an 2 analytical technique. 3 A Analytical technique, the analytical 4 chemist would look at the results of this test 5 and compare it to a standard, and he picks the 6 one that's the closest. It may not be 7 identical, but he is going to say this is 8 typical, like he did here, typical of aroclor 9 1254. It does not say it is exactly A1254. 10 It is typical of it. 11 Q How do you develop a standard? 12 A You run a known sample fresh off the 13 shelf of aroclor 1254 through the instrument, 14 and you get your what I'm calling a 15 fingerprint. That's the standard. And then 16 you run the unknown through and you compare 17 the unknown with the standard. And you pick 18 the one that's the closest. 19 Q What kind of analytical device was in 20 use at this time? 21 A That's the latest, the electron 22 capture/chromatography. 23 Q Do you know how Monsanto went about 24 collecting the various media that were 25 analyzed and reported on in this memo? Wm. Papageorge, 10/20/94 Page 183 WATER PCB-SD0000048947 184 1 A You mean the mechanical procedure? 2 Q Not necessarily the mechanics of the 3 procedure but the procedure itself. There is 4 a wide range of media that are sampled here 5 including non-Monsanto areas. And I'm just 6 wondering if you had any involvement in 7 collecting those samples? 8 A I had some involvement. Monsanto, 9 either my office, Dr. Tucker's office, or 10 Dr. Keller would get inquiries from 11 laboratories interested in this methodology. 12 They would get Monsanto's procedures. And 13 because of that contact, they would also be in 14 a position of sending Monsanto samples so that 15 the two laboratories could conduct analyses 16 and compare the results, see how close we were 17 to each other. As a result of that sample 18 sharing, they appeared on this list. 19 Q On the second page, the first page of 20 the attachment, there is a line for Monsanto 21 US, W. G. Krummrich, Sauget, Illinois. Do you 22 see that? 23 A Yes. 24 Q I would like to just go across that 25 line, and perhaps you can assist me in Wm. Papageorge, 10/20/94 Page 184 WATER PCB-SD0000048948 185 1 interpreting the data presented. The next 2 line is associated waterways, or the next 3 column, I'm sorry, is associated waterways. 4 And in that line it is listed as Mississippi 5 River. 6 Is it your understanding from that 7 that this document is reporting on samples 8 that were taken from the Mississippi River in 9 the vicinity of the Krummrich plant? 10 A No. I interpret that as samples of 11 material that could, if it gets into the 12 environment, end up in that river. 13 Q Okay. In the next column, the heading 14 is "Matrix," and number of samples analyzed. 15 And on the line for the Krummrich plant, the 16 first line is water and the second line is 17 sediment. Where did the water and sediment 18 that was sampled as part ofthis report come 19 from? 20 A Don't know. 21 Q Did you know at the time? 22 A No. 23 Q Did anyone know? 24 A Oh, I'm sure. 25 Q Somebody must have known obviously. Wm. Papageorge, 10/20/94 Page 185 WATER PCB-SD0000048949 186 1 Would Dr. Keller have known? 2 A Not necessarily. 3 Q Was there any reason why in this 4 report the source of the water and sediments 5 were not identified? 6 A Well, this report was in response to 7 my question to Dr. Keller regarding what 8 samples have we looked at and how widespread 9 is the presence of PCBs? So this document, 10 the purpose of this document was to give me a 11 feel for the locations, not so much for the 12 specific spot where the sample was taken. 13 Q So for purposes of this report, you 14 weren't really concerned with whether this was 15 water from the river or water from the sewer 16 or water from the sewage treatment plant. You 17 were just concerned about the general vicinity 18 of the location? 19 A Of this plant and what body of water 20 might be affected. 21 Q Now, in the column under the heading 22 "PCBs Found Most Typical of Aroclor," and then 23 it lists four different aroclors, do you see 24 that? 25 A I do. Wm. Papageorge, 10/20/94 Page 186 WATER PCB-SD0000048950 187 1 Q If there is -- what do the Xs under 2 those various aroclor columns in the line for 3 the Krummrich plant indicate? 4 A It indicates that -- let's take the 5 water row -- of those 59 water samples, some 6 of them, we don't know how many, produced a 7 graph from the instrument that was typical of 8 aroclor 1242. Some of them were typical of 9 1248, some ofthem typical of 1254 and some of 10 them typical of 1260. It doesn't tell you 11 which and how many. 12 Q And then in the next column, PCB 13 levels, there is a reference in that same line 14 to ppb/ppm. What does that indicate? 15 A That tells me that what they found 16 when they quantified the amount of PCB in 17 those samples. It ranged from the parts per 18 billion types of numbers up to the parts per 19 million types of numbers. 20 Q And if you go down to the next line 21 for sediment, on the Krummrich line, again 22 there is an X under each of the aroclor 23 columns indicating that at least some of the 24 samples found resulted in graphs typical of 25 those aroclors? Wm. Papageorge, 10/20/94 Page 187 WATER PCB-SD0000048951 188 1 A Yes. 2 Q Is that correct? 3 A Yes. 4 Q And thenunder the PCB levels column, 5 there is an indication ppb percent. What does 6 that mean? 7 A That means that some of the samples 8 measured down into the parts per billion 9 range. And some of them were as high as a 10 percent range. 11 Q Did it raise any particular concerns 12 with you that you were seeing sediment samples 13 in the percent range of PCBs? 14 A No. I would expect the sediment to 15 have percent range depending on where they 16 caught that sample. 17 Q And, again, you don't know if that 18 sediment sample, those sediment samples were 19 taken from the plant off-site of the plant? 20 You don't have any indication at all as to 21 where the samples were taken from? 22 A Not from this report, no. 23 MR. NASSIF: Objection. Asked and 24 answered. 25 Q (By Mr. Ricci) Go up to the Anniston Wm. Papageorge, 10/20/94 Page 188 WATER PCB-SD0000048952 189 1 line right above there. 2 A I see it. 3 Q There is one sediment sample under the 4 Anniston heading. Is it your understanding 5 from this chart that that sample was taken 6 from the Choccolocco Creek? 7 A I'm sorry. I lost you there. 8 Q I'm sorry. Let me rephrase the 9 question. There is a line -- never mind. I 10 will withdraw it. Let me go back for one 11 second to the Anniston heading. There are 12 samples of air, water, sediment and fish. Do 13 you see that? 14 A I do. 15 Q You can't tell from this chart where 16 the sediment samples for Anniston were taken; 17 is that correct? 18 A I cannot. 19 Q On the page with Bates No. CER 011454, 20 there are samples from the State of Ohio 21 Department of Agriculture? 22 A Yes. 23 Q Do you know how you came to get 24 samples from that governmental agency? 25 A Yes, sir. Wm. Papageorge, 10/20/94 Page 189 WATER PCB-SD0000048953 190 1 Q How is that? 2 A Dr. Hill, who was the head of the 3 Department of Agriculture in the State of 4 Ohio, had called Monsanto reporting the 5 presence of PCBs in some milk samples that his 6 laboratory had analyzed. And as a result of 7 that contact, there was this exchange of 8 methodologies between the labs and samples. 9 And this reflects Monsanto's analysis of 10 Dr. Hill's samples. 11 Q Were the results of these analyses -- 12 was Dr. Hill advised of the results of these 13 analyses? 14 A Oh, yes, certainly. 15 (Plaintiff Deposition Exhibit Number 8 16 marked for identification.) 17 Q (By Mr. Ricci) Mr. Papageorge, let me 18 show you a document that's been marked as 19 Exhibit 8 to your deposition. 20 This is a document with Bates No. CER 21 012905 to 906, M6320 to M6321. 22 I have a very quick question with 23 respect to this document that relates to the 24 second paragraph on the first page, although 25 you are welcome to review as much of the Wm. Papageorge, 10/20/94 Page 190 WATER PCB-SD0000048954 191 1 document as you would like. 2 A I have read that paragraph. 3 Q This is a memo from Mr. McCutchan to 4 yourself, dated June 10, 1970. Who was 5 Mr. McCutchan, first of all? 6 A He was a Krummrich plant employee in 7 the environmental team, on the environmental 8 team at the plant. 9 Q In this memo he is reporting on some 10 sampling results. And he states that all 11 results are in ppm 1242. Do you see that? 12 A I do. 13 Q What do you understand that to mean? 14 A That means that the analytical chemist 15 when he tested these samples looked at the 16 chart or graph that was produced by the 17 equipment and found that it resembled the 18 chart or graph that he would have gotten from 19 aroclor 1242 under the same test conditions. 20 Q Is it correct then that the only 21 aroclor that was identified in these samples 22 was 1242? 23 A That's what this report indicates, 24 yes. 25 Q Was it curious to you that you were Wm. Papageorge, 10/20/94 Page 191 WATER PCB-SD0000048955 192 1 seeing 1242 much more frequently than you were 2 seeing the other aroclors? 3 A No, because 1242 was the material 4 produced in the greater quantities. 5 Q Was that true at both Anniston and 6 Krummrich? 7 A Yes. 8 Q Were there particular uses of 1242 or 9 was it used -- let me ask a better question. 10 What were the uses of 1242 that you were aware 11 of? 12 A There were many. In fact, virtually 13 all the uses used 1242. Capacitors were big 14 users, electrical capacitors. It was also 15 used in some transformers. It was used in the 16 carbonless paper. It was used in lacquers and 17 paints. All these uses we referred to 18 earlier, the caulking, the adhesives, the 19 inks. So it was a very popular mixture. 20 Q The samples that were referred to in 21 this document are Mississippi River sediment 22 samples; is that correct? 23 A Yes. 24 Q Why were you taking Mississippi River 25 sediment samples? Wm. Papageorge, 10/20/94 Page 192 WATER PCB-SD0000048956 193 1 A It is part of our attempt to find out 2 how much of the environment has been affected. 3 And since the river runs right by the plant 4 and the PCBs were produced in the plant for 5 decades, we just thought that this was a good 6 place to analyze, see what's out there. 7 Q Was it your belief at this point that 8 the Krummrich plant was the source of the PCBs 9 that were identified in these sediment 10 samples? 11 A Yes. 12 Q Why is that? 13 A Well, proximity, type of chemical. It 14 is just speculation, of course, as to whether 15 it came from the plant or there were other 16 contributors upstream that would move the 17 material on down, but it was interpreted as 18 being from that source. 19 Q From Krummrich? 20 A Krummrich, for decades, not just 21 yesterday kind of thing. 22 Q What was the route by which the 23 discharge from the Krummrich plant got to the 24 river? 25 A Don't know. I would be speculating. Wm. Papageorge, 10/20/94 Page 193 WATER PCB-SD0000048957 194 1 Q Do you know whether the village waste 2 water treatment plant discharged to the 3 Mississippi River? 4 A It discharged in the Mississippi. 5 Q Do you know when that treatment plant 6 was constructed? 7 A No, I don't. 8 Q Do you know where the Sauget sewers 9 flowed prior to the construction of the waste 10 water treatment plant? 11 A I do not. 12 (Plaintiff Deposition Exhibit Number 9 13 marked for identification.) 14 Q (By Mr. Ricci) Mr. Papageorge, let me 15 show you a document that's been marked as 16 Exhibit 9 to your deposition. 17 This is a document with Bates No. CER 18 013376 and 377, M6791 and M6792, and I'd ask 19 you to take a look at it. 20 MR. NASSIF: Let me see it, Bill. 21 A I have scanned the exhibit. 22 Q (By Mr. Ricci) This is a June 22, 23 1970, memo from Mr. Hodges to Mr. Hosmer; is 24 that correct? 25 A That is correct. Wm. Papageorge, 10/20/94 Page 194 WATER PCB-SD0000048958 195 1 Q You appear to be copied on this memo. 2 Do you know why you are copied on it? 3 A I do not, no. 4 Q At the top just over -- 5 A Let me correct my answer. 6 Q I'm sorry. 7 A I read the second page. There is a 8 reference to PCBs at Anniston. That would be 9 the reason I would be included. 10 Q You did not have any responsibility 11 for any of the other issues discussed in this 12 memo? 13 A That iscorrect. 14 Q At the top just over from Mr. Hosmer's 15 name there is a reference, "Confidential, FYI 16 and discard." Do you see that? 17 A I do. 18 Q Why was that notation put on this 19 document? 20 A You would have to ask Mr. Hodges. I 21 just don't know why he did that. 22 Q Was that a common reference for 23 documents in the company? 24 A No. 25 Q There is a handwritten arrow pointing Wm. Papageorge, 10/20/94 Page 195 WATER PCB-SD0000048959 196 1 to your name handwritten. Do you see that? 2 A I do. 3 Q Do you recognize that handwriting? 4 A Yes, I do. 5 Q Whose is that? 6 A Mr. Bergen whose name is underlined 7 there. 8 Q Do you know why Mr. Bergen put that 9 notation on this document? 10 A Well, obviously he wanted me to see 11 it. And he sent me a copy. I don't know why 12 he felt I had to have two copies. 13 Q To get the paper off his desk maybe? 14 A I don't know. 15 Q In the second paragraph under the 16 heading "WGK Plant," there is a discussion of 17 waste flow bypassing the waste treatment 18 plant. Do you see that? 19 A I do. 20 Q And the memo attributes that to high 21 river levels and failure ofthe Corps of 22 Engineers' flood pumping station to operate. 23 Did you have any familiarity with the 24 conditions at the waste water treatment plant 25 that could result in bypassing? Wm. Papageorge, 10/20/94 Page 196 WATER PCB-SD0000048960 197 1 A I did not. 2 Q Did you haveany knowledge or 3 familiarity with the Corps pumping station? 4 A No. 5 Q Turn over to the next page,please. 6 Under the Anniston heading, there is a 7 statement, "The executive secretary of the 8 Alabama Water Improvement Commission was 9 briefed on the PCB problem." Do you see that? 10 A Yes. 11 Q What was the Alabama Water Improvement 12 Commission? 13 A That's the state's agency that 14 concerns itself with the water of Alabama. 15 Q And the executive secretary of that 16 commission would be a state government 17 employee? 18 A Yes. 19 Q Were you involved in this briefing 20 session that's referred to in this memo? 21 A No. 22 Q Were you aware of it? 23 A Yes. 24 Q Do you know how it came about? 25 A Well, you mean the details of Wm. Papageorge, 10/20/94 Page 197 WATER PCB-SD0000048961 198 1 arranging the meeting or just the idea of 2 conducting such a briefing? 3 Q The idea of conducting such a 4 briefing. 5 A I had personally encouraged the plant 6 manager to make his contacts and keep open and 7 above-board discussions ongoing as we moved 8 into this PCB environmental issue, and that's 9 one step that he took. 10 Q Do you know what steps were taken at 11 the Krummrich plant to comply with your 12 feelings on that point? 13 A There were similar steps made keeping 14 in touch with the Illinois agencies, yes. 15 Q Did you have any involvement in any 16 communications with Illinois agencies 17 regarding PCB discharges from the Krummrich 18 plant during this time period, mid 1970? 19 A No. 20 Q But you know they occurred? 21 A Yes. 22 Q Who had those contacts? 23 A Somebody at the plant. I don't know 24 if it is the plant manager himself or his 25 environmental team or collectively. Wm. Papageorge, 10/20/94 Page 198 WATER PCB-SD0000048962 199 1 Q Was there any document or report that 2 you are aware of that would memorialize any 3 such contacts? 4 A I don't remember any. I don't 5 remember any. 6 Q The statement in this memo is that, 7 "The executive secretary of the Alabama Water 8 Improvement Commission was briefed on the PCB 9 problem." Do you know what the PCB problem as 10 it is referred to in this memo entails? 11 A Presence in the environment. 12 (Plaintiff Deposition Exhibit Number 10 13 marked for identification.) 14 Q (By Mr. Ricci) Mr. Papageorge, let me 15 show you a document that's been marked as 16 Exhibit 10 to your deposition. 17 This is a document with Bates No. CER 18 013947 through 952, M2912 through M2917. And 19 I'm asking you to take a look at it. 20 A I have scanned the exhibit. 21 Q This is a June 23, 1970, report from 22 Mr. Pierle. And you are shown as receiving a 23 copy of this document; is that correct? 24 A That is correct. 25 Q And you received this document in your Wm. Papageorge, 10/20/94 Page 199 WATER PCB-SD0000048963 200 1 capacity as manager of environmental control? 2 A Yes. 3 Q The document refers to results of 4 aroclor sampling in various areas in the 5 vicinity of the Krummrich plant and on the 6 plant; is that correct? 7 A That is correct. 8 Q Now, do you understand aroclor as it 9 is referred to in this document to be PCBs? 10 A Yes. 11 Q As opposed to terphenyls or something 12 else? 13 A That is correct. 14 Q If you examine pages 3 and 4 ofthe 15 document, there is recounting of the results 16 of river sediment sampling. Do you see that? 17 A I see the reference to river sediment. 18 You used the word recounting. I don't have 19 the other numbers in front of me. 20 Q I didn't mean recounting as in 21 counting again. I mean recounting as in 22 setting forth. 23 A Oh, okay. 24 Q And I will be happy to rephrase the 25 question so that it is clear on the record. Wm. Papageorge, 10/20/94 Page 200 WATER PCB-SD0000048964 201 1 On pages 3 and 4 of this report, 2 Mr. Pierle sets forth the results of various 3 PCB samplings that occurred in Mississippi 4 River sediment; is that correct? 5 A That's correct. 6 Q Did these results support the belief 7 that you expressed earlier that the Krummrich 8 plant was the source of the PCBs that you were 9 finding in the Mississippi River sediment? 10 A Yes. Primary source through the 11 village system. 12 Q Were these sampling results ever 13 reported to the State of Illinois or any other 14 government agency? 15 A Don't know about this particular set. 16 Information was shared, but I don't know which 17 set of data was shared and when. 18 Q During this time period, let's say the 19 year 1970, do you know whether any information 20 was shared with the State of Illinois 21 regarding the aroclor levels that you were 22 finding in the Mississippi River sediments? 23 A I do not know. More accurately, I 24 don't recall. 25 Q What's the earliest recollection that Wm. Papageorge, 10/20/94 Page 201 WATER PCB-SD0000048965 202 1 you have of Monsanto providing the State of 2 Illinois with the results of sampling of 3 Mississippi River sediments for PCBs? 4 A I don't have any date that I recall. 5 I do know the data was shared, but just when I 6 don't know. 7 Q Do you know if the data was shared in 8 writing or in person? 9 A I'm certain it was shared in person. 10 I do not recall anything in writing. That 11 doesn't mean it didn't happen. I didn't see 12 any. I don't recall any. 13 Q Why are you certain that it occurred 14 in person? 15 A Because I was assured at some point in 16 time in the early '70s that these discussions 17 were ongoing with the Illinois EPA. This is 18 just by reporting as normally done. 19 MR. RICCI: Could you read that last 20 answer back, please. 21 (The requested portion of the 22 record read by the reporter) 23 Q (By Mr. Ricci) Who gave you those 24 assurances that you referred to in your last 25 answer? Wm. Papageorge, 10/20/94 Page 202 WATER PCB-SD0000048966 203 1 A From my staff guy, one of the Mikes 2 that we talked about earlier. Wait a minute. 3 No, that's 1970. Let me think. I can't 4 recall any specific person. I just don't 5 remember the person anymore. 6 Q And in that answer previous to this 7 last one, you indicated that this was in the 8 early '70s that you recall? 9 A Yes. 10 Q This reporting or your learning of 11 this reporting to the IEPA? 12 A Correct. 13 Q But you don't recall whether it was in 14 70 or 71 or 72? 15 A That is correct. 16 Q Monsanto made significant strides in 17 reducing the volume of aroclors that it was 18 discharging into the sewers from, say, 70 to 19 71; is that correct? 20 A Well, I know they made strides. I 21 don't know if they were -- yes, I believe by 22 71 they had achieved that target that I had 23 established. 24 Q Do you know if the reporting that was 25 done to the State of Illinois was ofthe PCB Wm. Papageorge, 10/20/94 Page 203 WATER PCB-SD0000048967 204 1 levels that had been found in the river 2 sediments or the PCB levels that the plant was 3 currently discharging? 4 A As I recall, it was both. 5 Q And your recollection is based upon 6 these assurances that you got from somebody 7 that you can't remember? 8 A That is correct, yes. 9 Q Did you have a staff in the position 10 that you held in the early '70s as manager of 11 environmental control? 12 A I did not. 13 Q Did you have any resources available 14 to you to get things done if you felt that a 15 sample should be taken or a process should be 16 looked at? 17 A It would be the plant people. I would 18 contact them either by phone or in person. 19 Q You could go directly to the plant 20 people and get them to do things for you? 21 A And make my requests, yes. 22 Q In this memo that's identified as 23 Exhibit 10, Mr. Pierle states that it can be 24 concluded from the data that aroclors present 25 in high concentrations along the river bank -- Wm. Papageorge, 10/20/94 Page 204 WATER PCB-SD0000048968 205 1 do you see that? 2 A I do see it. 3 Q Did Monsanto ever take any steps to in 4 any way address these high concentrations of 5 PCBs along the river bank? 6 A Can you help me with the addressing 7 them? Did we sample them and we were aware of 8 the numbers? 9 Q Did you do anything to clean them up 10 or assure that they were not having 11 environmental impact on biota in the river? 12 A There was no evidence of any effect on 13 the biota. Nothing was done to remove them. 14 Q In your position as manager of 15 environmental control, was it one of your 16 duties to determine whether, at least in your 17 view, some remedial type activity should be 18 taken in response to PCBs you were finding? 19 A If harm was being detected. 20 Otherwise, it is a case of if there is no harm 21 evident, don't disturb it. You might create 22 more problems. 23 Q What steps did Monsanto take to 24 determine whether these high concentrations 25 along the river bank were causing any harm? Wm. Papageorge, 10/20/94 Page 205 WATER PCB-SD0000048969 206 1 A Well, it varied. First of all, you 2 study the solubility of the material. And 3 based on that knowledge, we conducted -- or 4 Monsanto had conducted some fish studies to 5 determine the effect on fish. And these 6 studies indicated, yes, there was a buildup of 7 PCBs in the fish, but there was no evidence of 8 harm either reproductively or sicknesses or 9 ailments amongst the fish. The only effect 10 noted was the increase in PCBs in the fish 11 itself. 12 Q Were these fish studies from fish from 13 the Mississippi River? 14 A No. They were done in Massachusetts 15 at a professional laboratory, fish laboratory. 16 Q Are you aware of any studies by 17 Monsanto to determine whether the high 18 concentrations along the river bank of the 19 Mississippi River that Mr. Pierle is referring 20 to in Exhibit 10 were resulting in any harm to 21 any biota or any organisms? 22 MR. NASSIF: Wait a minute. By other 23 studies, you mean other than the studies he 24 just expressed? 25 MR. RICCI: I'm talking about studies Wm. Papageorge, 10/20/94 Page 206 WATER PCB-SD0000048970 207 1 with respect to the concentrations that were 2 identified in this memo. 3 MR. NASSIF: Well, you don't know the 4 concentrations. I'm going to object to that 5 because the concentration studied in 6 Massachusetts wouldn't be the concentrations 7 that were in the Mississippi River. 8 Q (By Mr. Ricci) Do you understand the 9 question, Mr. Papageorge? 10 A I don't think I do because we are 11 talking in this exhibit about concentration of 12 PCBs in sediment. The fish studies are done 13 in concentration of PCBs in the water in which 14 the fish exist. That's two different things. 15 The fact that it is in the sediment 16 doesn't mean it will be in the water. 17 Q So that the study in Massachusetts 18 doesn't really determine or speak to whether 19 the high concentrations in these sediments 20 might be causing any environmental harm? 21 A No, because it is a matter of what's 22 in the water, not what's in the muck at the 23 bottom of the river. 24 Q Was it your view that the PCBs in the 25 muck in the bottom of the river couldn't cause Wm. Papageorge, 10/20/94 Page 207 WATER PCB-SD0000048971 208 1 any environmental harm? 2 A There was no evidence that they could 3 because of their low solubility and 4 impossibility. They just sit there. 5 Q Do you know whether these samples that 6 are referred to in this memo were taken from 7 the bottom of the river or from the bank or, 8 you know, in areas that were submerged or 9 areas that weren't submerged? 10 A I cannot tell you specifically which 11 of these samples specifically were taken off 12 shore or from a boat. I do know they did it 13 both ways, but I don't know which samples go 14 with which procedure. 15 Q So some of the samples were taken from 16 the bank ofthe river? 17 A Yes. They walked down and waded into 18 the water and grabbed samples. Others they 19 took a boat out and reached down several feet 20 until they reached the sediment. 21 MR. RICCI: This would be a good time 22 to stop. 23 (Deposition adjourned) 24 25 Wm. Papageorge, 10/20/94 Page 208 WATER PCB-SD0000048972 209 1 COMES NOW THE WITNESS, WILLIAM B. 2 PAPGEORGE, and having read the foregoing 3 transcript ofthe deposition taken on the 20th 4 day of October, 1994, acknowledges by 5 signature hereto that it is a true and 6 accurate transcript of the testimony given on 7 the date hereinabove mentioned. 8 ____________________ 9 William B. Papageorge 10 11 Subscribed and sworn to me before this______ 12 day of, 1994. 13 My Commission expires: 14 15 16 17 Notary7 Public 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Wm. Papageorge, 10/20/94 Page 209 WATER PCB-SD0000048973 210 1 State of Illinois 2 SS. 3 County of Madison 4 I, Tracey Balsitis, a Notary Public in and 5 for the State of Illinois, duly commissioned, 6 qualified and authorized to administer oaths 7 and to certify to depositions, do hereby 8 certify that pursuant to Notice in the civil 9 cause now pending and undetermined in the 10 United States District Court, Southern 11 District of Illinois, to be used in the trial 12 of said cause in said court, I was attended at 13 the offices of Cobum & Croft, in the City of 14 St. Louis, State of Missouri, by the aforesaid 15 witness; and by the aforesaid attorneys; on 16 the 20th day of October, 1994. 17 The said witness, being of sound mind and 18 being by me first carefully examined and duly 19 cautioned and sworn to testify the truth, the 20 whole truth, and nothing but the truth in the 21 case aforesaid, thereupon testified as is 22 shown in the foregoing transcript, said 23 testimony being by me reported in shorthand 24 and caused to be transcribed into typewriting, 25 and that the foregoing pages correctly set Wm. Papageorge, 10/20/94 Page 210 WATER PCB-SD0000048974 211 1 forth the testimony of the aforementioned 2 witness, together with the questions 3 propounded by counsel and remarks and 4 objections of counsel thereto, and is in all 5 respects a full, true, correct and complete 6 transcript of the questions propounded to and 7 the answers given by said witness; that 8 signature ofthe deponent was not waived by 9 agreement of counsel. 10 I further certify that I am not of counsel 11 or attorney for either of the parties to said 12 suit, not related to nor interested in any of 13 the parties or their attorneys. 14 Witness my hand and notarial seal at St. 15 Louis, Missouri, this 4th day of November, 16 1994. 17 My Commission expires January 24, 1995. 18 19 Notary Public in and for the 20 State of Illinois 21 22 23 24 25</Transcript> </TRN> Wm. Papageorge, 10/20/94 Page 211 WATER PCB-SD0000048975