Document evpRZ4b8dXDEyJGjLdG79wRL4

1 UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT DISTRICT OF NEW JERSEY 2 CIVIL ACTION FILE NO. 79-1336 3 LAURA BAILY, et al, 4 Plaintiffs, 5 vs. DEPOSITION OF: NICHOLAS SFISCKO 6 JOHNS-MANVILLE, et al, 7 Defendants 8 CIVIL ACTION NOS. 9 MARSHALL A. SMITH, et al, : 10 vs. : 11 JOHNS-MANVILLE SALES : 12 CORPORATION, et al, : 13 Defendants, : 77-2047 79-9 79-1992 79-2218 79-3056 80-179 80-264 14 AND CONSOLIDATED CASES. : 15 CIVIL ACTION NO. 84-546 16 MICHAEL EMILIANOW, et al, 17 Plaintiffs, 18 vs. 19 BRINCO MINING LIMITED, et al, 20 Defendants. 21 DEBORAH A. BEVERE, CSR. 22 Friday, March 14, 1986 Short Hills, New Jersey 23 Reporting Services Arranged Through: 24 ROSENBERG & ASSOCIATES 161 Eagle Rock Avenue 25 Roseland, New Jersey 07063 (201) 228-9100 SC-GRAY-4130 2 1 SUPERIOR COURT OF NEW JERSEY 2 LAW DIVISION-MIDDLESEX COUNTY DOCKET NO. L-37243-79 3 IN RE: 4 JOHNS-MANVILLE PLANT WORKER CASES. 5 6 7 8 AP P EARANC E S : 9 MESSRS. WILENTZ, GOLDMAN & SPITZER 10 BY: PHILIP A. TORTORETI, ESQ. Attorney for the plaintiffs in Smith, 11 Emilignow, and some Middlesex County cases 12 MESSRS. MC CARTER & ENGLISH BY: JOHN F. BRENNER, ESQ. 13 Attorney for the Third Party Defendant Hercules, Inc. 14 MESSRS. MC CARTER & ENGLISH 15 BY: GAY LYNN TONELLI, ESQ. Attorney for Carey Canada, Inc., The 16 Celotex Corp., The Flintkote Co., Flintkote Mines, H.K. Porter Co., The Keene Corp., 17 Owens-Corning Fiberglas and Turner & Newall P.L.C. 18 MESSRS. ROBINSON, WAYNE, LEVIN, 19 RICCIO & LA SALA BY: JANET M. ZICARELLI, LEGAL ASST. 20 Attorneys for Cassiar Mining Corporation 21 MESSRS. CARPENTER, BENNETT & MORRISSEY BY: JOSEPH D. RASNEK, ESQ. 22 Attorneys for Occidental Chemical Corporation 23 MESSRS. PORZIO, BROMBERG & NEWMAN 24 BY: MOIRA L. BROPHY, ESQ. Attorney for Lake Asbestos 25 MESSRS. SMITH, STRATTON, WISE, HEHER & 3 1 BRENNAN BY: WILLIAM E. MC GRATH, JR., ESQ 2 Attorney for Bell Asbestos Mines, Ltd. 3 MESSRS. SHANLEY & FISHER BY: JOHN P. LACEY, ESQ. 4 Attorney for Asbestos Corporation Ltd., in the Bialy vs. Johns-Manville case 5 MESSRS. CAMPBELL, FOLEY, LEE, MURPHY 6 & CERNIGLIARO BY: STEPHEN J. FOLEY, JR., ESQ. 7 Attorney for Porter Hayden 8 U.S DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE BY: NANCY B. COLLINS, ESQ. 9 Attorney for the Government 10 MESSRS. BUDD, LARNER, KENT, GROSS, PICILLO, ROSENBAUM, GREENBERG & SADE 11 BY: ARTHUR D. BROMBERG, ESQ. BY: ANTHONY CARUSO, ESQ. 12 Attorney for Johns-Manville 13 MESSRS. MORGAN, MELHUISH, MONAGHAN, ARVIDSON, ABRUTYN & LISOWSKI 14 BY: KATHRYN J. KINGREE, ESQ. Attorney for Raymark Industries, Inc. 15 RYAN & GANNON, ESQS., 16 BY: DIANE J. CAHN, ESQ. For Uniroyal 17 MATTSON MADDEN & POLITO, ESQS 18 BY: JOHN R. LEITH, ESQ. For Special Materials 19 MC ELROY, DEUTSCH & MULVANEY, ESQS., 20 BY: WILLIAM J. MC CARTHY, ESQ., For NORCA Corp. 21 STRYKER TAMS & DILL, ESQS. 22 BY: MARK L. MUCCI, ESQ. For Metropolitan 23 24 25 4 1 INDEX 2 WITNESS DIRECT CROSS REDIRECT 3 NICHOLAS SFISCKO 4 By Mr.. Lacey 6,194 By Ms.. Tonelli 5 By Ms.. Collins 63 100 By Mr. Brophy 6 By Mr. Rasnek By Mr. McCarthy 179 193 198 7 EXH I B ITS 8 NUMBER DESCRIPTION PAGE 9 NS-4A 10 NS - 2 8 NS - 2 9 11 NS-30 NS-31 12 NS-32 NS-14A 13 NS-9A NS-33 14 NS-34 Diagram Document Document Document Document Document Document Document Document Document 90 113 116 135 143 143 153 161 161 170 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 5 1 (Before Deborah A. Bevere, a Certified 2 Shorthand Reporter and Notary Public of the State 3 of New Jersey, held at the offices of BUDD LARNER 4 KENT GROSS PICILLO ROSENBAUM GREENBERG & SADE on 5 March 14, 1986) 6 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------7 N I C H O L A S S F I S C K O, previously 8 sworn testifies as follows: 9 10 CROSS EXAMINATION BY MR. LACEY: 11 12 Q. My name is John Lacey, I represent 13 one of the defendants in this case. This is a 14 continuation of your deposition of Monday 15 Tuesday and Wednesday. For the purpose of this 16 record you are still under oath. I would ask 17 that you listento my questions very carefully, 18 and just answer what I ask. I don't want any 19 excess information, if you will, so please listen 20 very carefully. Wait until I finish the question, 21 then give me a concise, but accurate answer to 22 each of my questions. 23 Do you understand that, sir? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. Thank you very much. 6 Sfiscko-Cross 1 Mr. Sfiscko, you've testified 2 earlier that water pipe and sewer pipe were 3 products produced in I Building from 1947 to 1967. 4 Is that correct? 5 A. Correct. 6 Q. Have you ever heard of a pipe called 7 electrical duct pipe? 8 A. Manufactured on a ten foot machine. 9 Q. Was that also produced in I Building 10 from 1947 until 1967? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q What percentage of asbestos fiber 13 would be utilized in that product? 14 A. 15 In electrical conduit? Q. Is that a synonym for electrical 16 duct pipe? 17 A. 18 Yes, same thing. It was 10 percent fiber - Q. Is that in 1947? 19 A. Yes -- it hasn't changed the whole period. 20 The reprocessed material, that could have been 10 21 or 11 percent, reprocessed material came to a 22 total of 20 or 21 percent. 23 Q. When you say reprocessed material, 24 that is reprocessed asbestos fiber? 25 A. It is the pipe that was previously made, 7 Sfiscko-Cross 1 rejected, ground and reused. 2 Q. Would that include blue fiber as 3 well as white fiber? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. And in the 10 percent figure you 6 gave, that is blue and white fiber as well. Is 7 that correct? 8 A. Not throughout the whole period. 9 Q. How about in 1947. 10 A. 11 Yes, it is blue fiber in the blend. Q. The 10 percent fiber used in that 12 product, how much would be blue in percentage 13 terms? 14 MR. CARUSO: I object to the form. 15 You say 10 percent raw fiber or virgin fiber to 16 void my objection. 17 Q. Of the 10 percent virgin fiber, what 18 percentage of that would be blue fiber? 19 A. Now you are talking about electrical 20 conduit? 21 Q. Yes, sir. 22 A. There was korduct made there to which was a 23 thinner wall product, K O R D U C T. Between the 24 2, it was virgin fiber, between 10 and 15 percent. 25 Q. Would be blue fiber? 8 Sfiscko-Cross 1 A. Yes, at 47, I'm talking about. 2 Q. Yes. And did that change later on? 3 A. That changed later on . 4 Q. What was the change that was made? 5 A. It was reduced. 6 Q. So more white fiber would be 7 utilized later on? 8 A. That is correct. 9 Q. How much cement would be utilized in 10 that pipe, in percentage terms? 11 A. 65 would be a good number. 12 Q. Is that your testimony that it is 13 approximately 65 percent? 14 A. Approximately. 15 Q. That leaves approximately 15 percent 16 silica sand? 17 A. No, silica sand was 20 -- around 20 percent. 18 Q. Maybe my mathematics is off. 19 A. All right. So I'll explain it to you. 20 Q. All right. Please do. 21 A. Reprocessed material was not counted, okay. 22 That was the addition over and above the 100 23 percent. 24 Q. I see. 25 A. It could have been 10, 15 percent balance. 9 Sfiscko-Cross 1 Q. I see. 2 And these are approximate figures? 3 A. Approximate. 4 Q. Korductpipe, what percentage of 5 fiber would be utilized in that product in 1947? 6 A. That used a little more. It could have 7 been up to 15 percent, depending on the diameter. 8 If you made 2 inch, it would be 15 percent, 9 because 2 inches were more critical item to make. 10 If it was 3 inch it would be a little less. We 11 had specifications for different diameters. 12 Q. Is there a percentage of reprocessed 13 fiber in that as well? 14 A. Reprocessed remains the same for 15 practically all 10 foot machine product, the 16 non-critical products. 17 Q. What percentage of virgin blue fiber 18 of the 15 percent virgin fiber was used? 19 A. That remained pretty constant. 20 Q. At what percentage? 21 A. Well, like I said before, it could be 10 to 22 15 percent, whatever it was. That remained 23 pretty constant. 24 Q. And the percentage of cement? 25 A. That remained pretty constant, 65. 10 Sfiscko-Cross 1 Q. And silica as well? 2 A. Same 3 Q. Are you familiar with a product 4 called gas vent pipe? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. Was that produced in I Building? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. From 1947 to 67? 9 A. No, no, we got out of the gas vent business 10 Oh, maybe about -- I don't know now, a few years 11 later. A few years later, we weren't making gas 12 vent pipe 13 Q. Would you tell us whether that was 14 before or after the division headquarters task 15 force had been formed? 16 A. In that area. 17 Q. It was right about that time? 18 A. That is why we, after that we expanded to 19 number 4 pipe machine, which was another 10 foot 20 machine. 21 Q. What is the reason you expanded the 22 ten foot pipe machine? 23 A. Telephone duct. 24 Q. I'll get back to that in one second. 25 The gas vent pipe, do you recall what percentage 11 Sfiscko-Cross 1 of fiber would be used in that? 2 A. Practically all the same. 3 Q. They were? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. Telephone duct? 6 A. Same. 7 Q. Irrigation pipe? 8 A. None. I don'tremember any irrigation pipe, 9 what you call irrigation pipe. 10 Q. You don't recall ever producing that? 11 A. Not at Manville that I know of, not on the 12 10 foot machine. 13 Q. Connection pipe, have you ever heard 14 of that house connection pipe, have you ever 15 heard of that term? 16 A. That is building sewer. 17 Q. Is that different from the sewer 18 pipe you referred to on Monday, Tuesday and 19 Wednesday? 20 A. 13 foot machine was sewer pipe. The 10 21 foot machine was building sewer pipe. Sewer pipe 22 was used out in the street. Building sewer were 23 house connections, what you called house 24 connections. They were branch connections from 25 the main line to the house line. 12 Sfiscko-Cross 1 Q. Would the percentage of fiber be the 2 same as you mentioned earlier? 3 A. No, that changed. 4 Q. How about in 1947? 5 A. In 1947, I don't remember making building 6 sewer on the 10 foot machine. That product came 7 later. 8 Q. Would you know when that was 9 introduced into the production? 10 A. I can't tell you any particular time. That 11 is when we shifted the telephone duct to number 4 12 machine, and we went to the building sewer on 13 that number one machine. 14 Q. Would you be able to give me an 15 approximation? 16 A. I would be guessing. 17 Q. Okay. 18 Can you give me an -- strike that. 19 Can you give me a minimum period 20 that you would have produced that prior to 1967 21 in terms of years, and I say a minimum, I don't 22 want you to take a guess beyond what you know. 23 A. You see, first we went into building sewer, 24 we went into the 4 inch diameters. Then we 25 expanded to the 5 inch, then we expanded to the 6 13 Sfiscko-Cross 1 inch. And they are all different periods of time. 2 You see, we had mandrels for 4 inch, then we had 3 to go out and purchase mandrels for 10 inch. And 4 they had either 6 month or year delivery, even 5 longer. As we expanded we had to wait to get all 6 the equipment. 7 Q. And as you increased the diameter of 8 that pipe , you would have to utilize more fiber? 9 MR. CARUSO: I object to the form. 10 You can answer it. 11 A. You are talking about virgin pipe, right? 12 Q. Yes. 13 A. Yes, because -- do you want to know the 14 reason? 15 Q. Why don't you give me the reason, 16 sir. 17 A. The reason were there were specifications 18 which had more testing specifications, crush test 19 flex test and stuff like that. 20 Q. Would those be specifications from 21 customers? 22 A. Specifications that was given to us by -23 where it came from, I don't know.. 24 Q. Do you recall whether that was 25 produced during the entire decade of the 60's 14 Sfiscko-Cross 1 while you were there? 2 A. Yes 3 Q. Do you recall whether it was 4 produced during the second half of the 1950's? 5 A. It could have been 58, 59, that period. It 6 could have been, or before too, my God. I can 't -- 7 like I say, each side was different. 8 Q. That is good enough, sir. 9 Do you recall the approximate 10 percentage of cement that would be utilized in 11 that product? 12 A. Cement remained the same, and silica 13 remained the same. It was just a percent of 14 fiber that would vary, and the type of fiber. 15 Q. Okay, sir, air duct pipe, are you 16 familiar with that term? 17 A. 18 Yes Q. Did you produce that product in I 19 Building in 47 to 67? 20 A. 21 Yes , yes. Q. Did that also use 10 percent virgin 22 fiber? 23 A. Yes 24 Q. And 65 percent cement? 25 A. Yes. 15 Sfiscko-Cross 1 Q. What was air duct used for? 2 A. Mostly air duct that we formed was made for 3 Levittown, when they had those big projects in 4 Long Island he was the major purchaser of that 5 pipe. He used it in the foundation of the homes. 6 Q. Was that a 20 year project in 7 Levittown? 8 A. Levittown, oh, I would say we were making 9 Levittown products for at least a good 10 years 10 MS. CAHN: Would you please keep up 11 your voice, I'm having trouble hearing. 12 MR. LACEY: I'm sorry. 13 Q. Besides the ones I mentioned to you 14 this morning do you recall any other products 15 plus the water and sewer pipes that were products 16 from1947 to 1967 during that period in I 17 Building? 18 A. Later on on the 10 foot machine you are 19 talking about? 20 Q.On any of the machines. 21 A. Well, let's take the 10 foot. 22 Q. Okay, we'll take the 10 foot first. 23 A. 10 foot we went to water pipe on number 1 24 machine. And that was 59, s60, in that area. You 25 can't hold me to the year. That was a 6 foot 16 Sfiscko-Cross 1 class 150 water pipe. That continued right 2 through the day I left I Building. 3 Q. And the other products on the 10 4 foot machine? 5 A. There were some 4 inch class 150 made there, 6 10 foot lengths, but not as much as the 6. The 6 7 was a demand product. And then through the 8 building sewer and the air duct. They were the 9 predominent items for the number 1 machine, and 10 number 4 machine we stayed with telephone duct 11 and then later on when the demand get less for 12 telephones, we went to building sewer on the 13 number 4 machine, 4 inch size. 14 In the latter part of my years there 15 then we went to 5 and 6 building sewer on number 16 4 machine, due to the lesser demand of the - 17 whatever the customer wanted, we had to make. 18 Q. Would customers, in making their 19 orders to you, specify percentage of fiber that 20 they wanted you to use? 21 A. No. 22 Q. Did they ever specify what grade of 23 fiber theywanted you to use? 24 A. No. 25 Q. Did they ever specify to you what 17 Sfiscko-Cross 1 product, and when I say product, what type of 2 product of fiber they would want you to use? 3 A. No. What you are saying in-house, or 4 outside, right? 5 Q. The outside customers. 6 A. No. 7 Q. Aside from the products that I've 8 already mentioned, were there any other products 9 you can recall being produced on the 13 foot 10 machine during the period from 1947 to 1967? 11 A. The 2 13 foot machines were pressure pipe 12 and sewer pipe. And some very little industrial 13 vent and a larger diameter which you could 14 classify as air duct, or something like that. It 15 is all very little -- probably 95 percent of the 16 product, or even higher would be water and sewer. 17 Q. What is pressure pipe? 18 A. Like class 150, class 200, class a hundred, 19 different test specifications. 20 Q. Was it called pressure pipe? 21 A. 22 Pressure pipe. Q. How would pressure pipe be used? 23 A. 24 Water. Q. Did the percentage of fiber use 25 differ from that of house conection pipe, for 18 Sfiscko-Cross 1 instance? 2 A. That is a misleading question. 3 MR. TORTORETI: I object to the form. 4 A. It is different. 13 foot machine was 5 different than the 10 foot machine from types of 6 fiber. But cement and silica ratios were the 7 same. 8 MR. CARUSO: Off the record. 9 (Whereupon, there is off-the-record 10 discussion.) 11 Q. What would be the approximate 12 percentage of fiber utilized in pressure pipe? 13 A. 14 1947 we were using 25 percent. Q. That was approximately the same 15 percentages of fiber used in industrial vent pipe 16 as well? 17 MR. TORTORETI: Can I have that 18 question back, I didn't hear you. 19 (Whereupon, the reporter reads 20 back.) 21 A. 1947? 22 Q. Yes, sir. 23 A. Pretty close. 24 Q. What percentage of blue fiber would 25 be utilized in that product? 19 Sfiscko-Cross 1 A. 1947? 2 Q. Yes, sir. 3 A. It was 40 percent blue, and that is when I 4 first come into the plant. And 60 percent other 5 outside purchases. At that time it was all 6 outside fiber. 7 Q. Sir, what I want you to do is limit 8 your answers to the questions I ask. Okay. I 9 don't want to you add any additional information. 10 A. 11 I don't think I did. Q. I just want you to tell me when I 12 ask for a percentage of fiber in general, just 13 tell me what the percentage was. 14 A. I said 40 percent. You asked blue, I said 15 40 percent. Do you want me to stop there? 16 MR. LACEY: I would ask that the 17 response to my question be stricken from the 18 record as partially unresponsive. 19 MR. TORTORETI: I disagree with that 20 characterization. 21 MR. CARUSO: I would only say that 22 the witness is being most cooperative in 23 responding to the questions phrased to the best 24 of his ability. 25 MR. LACEY: I agree as well. I just 20 Sfiscko-Cross 1 ask that the answer be limited to my questions. 2 A. I'm under oath and I'm telling the truth. 3 Q. Sir, I believe you testified that 4 silica sand was stored outside of I Building. Is 5 that correct, in 1947? 6 A. I didn't say that. 1947 we were getting 7 silica in bags, later on we went to silica 8 grinder. We went to silica grinding, then we 9 stored the raw sand outside. 10 Q. In 1947 where would this silica be 11 stored? 12 A. 13 The bags. Q. Where in I Building? 14 A. 15 In the warehouse. MR. RASNEK: Off the record for a 16 minute. 17 Q. There came a time, sir, when silica 18 was purchased by Johns-Manville in bulk? 19 A. 20 Yes. Q. It no longer came in bags? 21 A. 22 That is correct. Q. Would you know the approximate year? 23 A. I don't believe so. That answer could come 24 from the plant engineer. 25 Q. Would you know if it was purchased 21 Sfiscko-Cross 1 in bulk in 1960? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. And that was stored outside of I 4 Building? 5 A. The grinding process? 6 MR. CARUSO: Objection, the question 7 was would you know if it was purchased in 1960. 8 His answer was yes and perhaps he was saying yes 9 he knows. 10 Q. Okay. 11 From the time silica was purchased 12 by Johns-Manville in bulk, whatever that year was, 13 where was it stored? 14 A. The grinding process was on the west side 15 outside the building. It shows on that diagram. 16 Q. How would that material be 17 transported from outside of I Building into I 18 Building and into the production process? 19 A. Inside the building we had silos. Outside 20 the building where we ground this raw sand, we 21 had a Fuller Kenyon system that pumped it to the 22 silos, to each pipe machine, F U L L E R K E N Y 23 O N. 24 Q. Was it pumped mechanically? 25 A. You mean automatically? 22 Sfiscko-iCross 1 Q. Yes. 2 A. Yes 3 Q. Would it be introduced into the 4 production process automatically as well? 5 A. Automatically. 6 Q. There wasn't an individual who could 7 rake the sand into a machine? 8 A. No. 9 Q. Were all of those machines that 10 transported -- strike that. 11 Did you ever observe the silica sand 12 creating dust, as it was introduced into the 13 production process in I Building? 14 A. Everything was strictly enclosed -15 Q. Sir, I believe you testified that 16 you utilized certain cards as general foreman 17 order to tell you what to produce -18 MR. CARUSO: Objection to the form. 19 Q. In I Building. 20 MR. CARUSO: I object to the form. 21 Q. Is that correct? 22 A. You talking about blends? 23 Q. Yes. 24 A. Yes 25 Q. What information would be contained 23 Sfiscko-Cross 1 on those cards? 2 A. Type of fiber, and by weight, or percent, 3 whatever you want to use. 4 Q. Would that give the weight of the 5 silica sand used as well? 6 A. Not at the willows, no. 7 Q. This was just the fiber product that 8 would be listed on the blend? 9 A. At the willows. 10 Q. Would you have a collection of cards, 11 or would the cards change -- strike that. 12 Where would you obtain those blend 13 cards? 14 A. I would have them in the office. 15 Q. Would you make them up yourself, or 16 would someone give them to you? 17 A. They are all specified by the class size - 18 the size and class of pipe to be manufactured. 19 Q. Where would you get those cards from, 20 for instance, would you get them from 21 headquarters, or from someone within I Building? 22 MR. CARUSO: I object to the form. 23 You can answer. 24 A. They came from the division to the Quality 25 Control Department. They were what we call 24 Sfiscko-Cross 1 specifications, specification book. 2 Q. And would those cards be contained 3 within an actual notebook? 4 A. From the specification book, the numbers 5 would be taken out of the specification book, and 6 put on to a card, and those cards were in the 7 forming office. 8 Q. Did you ever see those cards - 9 MR. CARUSO: Let him finish. 10 Q. Prepared by someone from the books 11 that you've described? 12 A. It was part of my duties to use the 13 specification book and transfer the information 14 from the specification book to the cards, index 15 cards. 16 Q. What was the specification book? 17 A. It was held in Quality Control Department. 18 It gave you all the information performing for 19 size and class, pipe to be manufactured in the 20 forming end. 21 Q. I'm not sure I understand, sir, you 22 say you were responsible for transferring the 23 information from the specification book to these 24 cards. 25 A. Right. 25 Sfiscko-Cross 1 Q. Did you have a copy of the 2 specification book? 3 A. I went to the Quality Control Department, 4 which was in the building. 5 Q. And then you would prepare the cards 6 yourself from that specification book? 7 A. That is correct. 8 Q. Would those cards tell you how much 9 was produced during a given day? 10 A. That only gave you the formula. 11 Q. Those cards would give you the 12 formula for every product that you would ever 13 produce in I Building? 14 A. For every class of product, yes. 15 Q. Some of the products that would be 16 produced in I Building would not be the same as 17 those -- strike that. 18 Is it correct that some of the 19 actual products produced in I Building would 20 consist of materials -- strike that. 21 Is it true that some of the actual. 22 products produced in I Building would contain a 23 different blend of fiber then that listed on any 24 of the cards that you would have in your 25 possession? 26 Sfiscko-Cross 1 A. I don't understand the question. 2 Q. You have testified, and correct me 3 if I am wrong, that you had discretion to utilize 4 certain products that were different from those 5 listed in the blend cards. Is that correct? 6 A. Are you talking - 7 MR. CARUSO: Objection to form. 8 A. Are you talking about types of fiber? 9 Q. I'm talkingabout theactual fiber 10 listed on the cards. 11 MR. TORTOTETI: I object to the form 12 of the question. I think you are confusing him. 13 A. It is confusing me. 14 Q. Okay, sir. 15 From 1947 to 1967 what grades of 16 fiber were utilized by you in producing I 17 Building products? 18 A. 10 foot or 13 foot? 19 Q. All grades. 20 A. To answer that I would have to separate the 21 10 foot from the 13 foot. 22 Q. Okay, sir, we'll go to the10 foot 23 machine first, and I don't want you to list any 24 specific fiber. I just want you to list for me 25 the grades of fiber utilized. 27 Sfiscko-Cross 1 MR. CARUSO: I object to the form. 2 MR. TORTORETI: Objection to the 3 form of the question. 4 Q. Do you understand my question? 5 A. Yes, I understand the question. But -- you - 6 MR. TORTORETI: Excuse me, I think 7 the question may be understandable, but it may 8 limit his response unfairly. 9 Q. Since you understand the questions - 10 please, no speeches, Mr. Tortoreti, the witness 11 says he understands the question. 12 MR. TORTORETI: I'm still allowed to 13 object to the form. 14 A. You see, I would have to answer it this way. 15 We used the 4 grade, and a blue, okay, blue was 16 not a 4 grade, okay. 17 Q. Did you ever use a grade 3 on the 10 18 foot machine? 19 A. Grade 3 on a ten foot machine? 20 21 A. Q. Yes. No. 22 23 A. Q. A grade 5? No. 24 25 A. Q. A grade 6? No. 28 Sfiscko-Cross 1 Q. Any other grade than a 4 grade? 2 A. On the 10 foot machine? 3 Q. Yes. 4 A. No, we used -- with the blue and the 4 5 grade. 6 Q. On the 13 foot machine what grades 7 of fiber? 8 A. Blue, 3 and 4 grade. 9 Q. Now, sir, again without listing any 10 specific products, is it correct to say that 11 there were several different asbestos fibers 12 within the 4 grade? 13 14 A. MR. CARUSO: I object to the form. Are you talking about outside purchases? 15 Q. In 1947. 16 A. 1947, all the 4 grade - 17 Q. Please, sir. 18 A. I'm trying to answer your question. I'm 19 not mentioning any names. 20 Q. I understand -- sir, Idon't want to 21 know whether it is J M fiber, I don't want to 22 know whether it is outside fiber. What I want to 23 know is were there several products? 24 A. 25 That is a misleading question. Q. Did various from 1947 to 1967, 29 Sfiscko-Cross 1 sir, various manufacturers manufactured asbestos 2 that was supplied to I Building. Is that correct? 3 MR. CARUSO: I object to the form. 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. Were there several different 6 suppliers of a grade 4 fiber from 1947 to 1967 7 without mentioning specific suppliers? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. Within grade 4 would the fibers be 10 interchangable, and when I - 11 MR. TORTORETI: If you are finished 12 with the question I object to the form. If you 13 are not, then maybe I won't be. 14 Q. Do you understand the question? 15 A. I understand. Interchangable, but not at a 16 100 percent of the 4 grades. 17 Q. At what percentage approxiamtely 18 would they be interchangable? 19 MR. CARUSO: I object to the form of 20 the question. 21 MR. TORTORETI: Objection. 22 MR. CARUSO: Do you mind if I say 23 something off the record? 24 (Whereupon, there is an 25 off-the-record discussion.) 30 Sfiscko-Cross 1 Q. I'll be very specific. 2 Sir, you've testified that at some 3 time during the 1947 to 1967 period there was a 4 VIMY 4 T fiber used. 5 A. VIMY H 4 T. 6 Q. VIMY H 4 T, were there other grade 7 for products that could be utilized in place of 8 the VIMY 4 H T fiber. 9 Q. Other grade 4 fibers? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. Yes. 12 A. Yes, substitute, yes. 13 Q. And they would be direct substitutes -- 14 strike that. 15 If you saw, for instance, on your 16 blend card, I'll call it a percentage or a weight 17 of VIMY 4 H T fiber to be utilized, could you 18 substitute other grades -- other grade 4 fibers 4 19 for that VIMY 4 H T fiber? 20 A. Certain -- not all, certain. 21 Q. 22 sir ? And would you do that on occasion, 23 A. Yes, depending on availability. 24 Q. Okay. 25 Now, please listen to my question 31 Sfiscko-Cross 1 carefully, sir. 2 from looking at a blend card is it 3 true that even if the blend card said VIMY 4 H T 4 you could not tell from looking at that card 5 whether that VIMY 4 H T product was utilized in 6 the actual product produced in I Building? 7 MR. TORTORETI: Objection to the 8 form of the question. 9 Q. Is that correct, sir? 10 A. No way. If that card called for VIMY H 4 T, 11 VIMY H 4 T was used. The blend card would be 12 changed. 13 MS. COLLINS: I didin't hear the last 14 part. 15 MR. TORTORETI: Would be changed. 16 Q. How often were blend cards changed? 17 A. Whenever necessary. 18 Q. Would you throw out prior blend 19 cards in order not to confuse them with ones you 20 had on -- you were to use on hand? 21 A. They would be pulled and another blend card 22 would be placed. We had an inventory control of 23 fibers. 24 Q. Would availability change on a daily 25 basis? 32 Sfiscko-Cross 1 A. Only the day where we would run out. 2 Q. Would yoube able to tell, sir, from 3 looking at a blend card how much product was 4 produced pursuant to that specific blend listed 5 on that blend card? 6 MR. CARUSO: I object to the form of 7 the question. 8 A. You mean on a 24 hour operation? 9 Q. Yes, sir. 10 A. You are talking about tons? 11 Q. Yes, sir. 12 A. That varied. Tons varied to size, and 13 class. 14 Q. You say that the blend cards would 15 be changed according to availability of the 16 product. Is that correct? 17 A. That is correct. 18 Q. Would you tell -- could you tell 19 from looking at that blend card how long it had 20 been in effect. 21 MR. CARUSO: I object to the form. 22 Do you want clarification? 23 MR. LACEY: I assume you you are 24 going to say how long it had been in effect. 25 MR. CARUSO: Basically. 33 Sfiscko-Cross 1 Q. Okay. Could you tell from looking 2 at a card how long it had been since that card 3 was originally utilized in production? 4 A. You mean from the date it was issued? 5 Q. Yes, sir. 6 A. Those cards could be in the active file for 7 years. 8 Q. Then again it could only be in there 9 for a month, couldn't it? 10 A. Depending on the availability of the fibers 11 that we had inventory. Some -- some would be 12 in there for years, some of them would probably 13 in there for 3, 6 months, who knows. 14 Q. Could you tell from looking at a 15 specific card the date it was issued? 16 A. On the card the date, the top the card, I 17 believe it is a date, the card went into affect, 18 if that is what you are saying. 19 Q. But you could never tell how much 20 was -- strike that. 21 But you could never tell how much 22 tonnage of product was produced pursuant to each 23 blend card? 24 A. You would have to go to the end of the 25 month, and the finance department would collate 34 Sfiscko-Cross 1 the types of fiber used for that month. 2 Q. Would that information tell you how 3 much tonnage of product was produced pursuant to 4 the exact blend card that you would be looking at? 5 A. I doubt very much you could tie the 2 in 6 together. I doubt it very much, because they 7 fluctuate by day -- by what you are making. 8 Q. Sir, you were on call for 24 hours 9 as a general foreman in I Building? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. What was your normal shift? 12 MR. CARUSO: I object to the form. 13 A. You mean the time I went into work in the 14 morning, time I went home? 15 Q. Yes, sir. 16 A. I would be in at 7 in the morning, and very 17 seldom get home at 5. So, sometimes I get home 18 at 5 And then I would come back in the evening 19 if I got a call, some sort of problem, I would 20 come back. 21 Q. You didn't have to come back every 22 day, did you? 23 A. No, I can give you an average. 24 Q. Okay, sir. 25 A. It could be about 50 percent of the time. 35 Sfiscko-Cross 1 Q. 50 percent? 2 A. Yes, could be 2 days a week, sometimes 3 3 days a week. 4 Q. And on those 2 or 3 days a week how 5 long would you have to stay? 6 A. Until we solved the problem. 7 Q. Can you give me an average on that? 8 A. Well, sometimes we would be an hour or so, 9 sometimes we would be 3, 4 hours, all depends on 10 what sort of a breakdown it was. 11 Q. Either way there would be a large 12 period of time you were not in the plant. Is 13 that correct? 14 MR. CARUSO: I object to the form. 15 A. 50 percent, maybe on the average. 16 Q. And during that time you would not 17 be physically supervising production. Is that 18 correct? 19 A. That is correct. 20 Q. And during that period you would not 21 be able to personally supervise individuals 22 pouring fiber into the -- strike that. 23 And during that period you would not 24 be able to personally supervise introduction of 25 the fiber into the production process. Isn't 36 Sfiscko-Cross 1 that correct? 2 A. We had a 24 hour control material used. 3 And they were checked. 4 Q. Sir, my question is, during that 5 time you were not able to personally supervise 6 persons introducing fiber into the production 7 process? 8 A. You are talking about direct? 9 Q. Yes. 10 A. The answer would be no. 11 Q. And you say that, for instance, the 12 VIMY 4 H -- strike that. 13 And you say that the VIMY H 4 T 14 could be directly substituted by other asbestos 15 products within grade 4? 16 MR. CARUSO: I object to the form. 17 A. Didn't have to be. 18 Q. Listen to my question, sir. 19 A. I'm listening. I know. 20 Q. You said, sir, did you not, that 21 there were other direct substitutes. 22 A. Yes 23 Q. For VIMY H 4 T fibers. 24 A. Yes 25 Q. During your asbestos you abviously 37 Sfiscko-Cross 1 could not personally see someone putting in a 2 VIMY H 4 T product. Isn't that correct? 3 A. Technically you are right. 4 Q. So your testimony is yes that is 5 correct, you couldn't personally supervise that? 6 A. It is a lousy question. It is not what 7 actually happened. But if you want to have it 8 that way, it is your way. Like I said, we had a 9 24 hour control. 10 Q. Did you personally see -- strike 11 that. 12 In your absence, you could not 13 personally see whether someone introduced a VIMY 14 H 4 T fiber into the production process. Isn't 15 that correct? 16 A. That is true, leave it that way. 17 Q. Sir, how was your daily production 18 determined? 19 A. Fiber, tons of pipe? 20 Q. Yes. And of the various types of 21 pipe produced. 22 A. Fiber first, right, we had what we call a 23 drop area. Is that what you wanted? 24 Q. I think we may be on a different 25 wave length. 38 Sfiscko-Cross 1 Would you have -- strike that. 2 You told us earlier, sir, that there 3 was a scheduling foreman. Is that correct? 4 A. Production scheduling. 5 Q. Was there a person with a job title 6 scheduling foreman? 7 A. No. I did the scheduling for the whole 8 week, or whatever it was. 9 Q. Would you schedule the daily 10 production of the various types of pipe? 11 A. 12 That is correct. Q. Let me take irrigation pipe, for 13 instance, what would determine whether you were 14 going to produce irrigation pipe on a certain day? 15 A. I would receive, from planning and 16 scheduling department, what was to be made in a 7 17 day or a ten day period. And I would schedule 18 the items from the first day, second day, third 19 day, all through that end of the felt change. 20 Q. Would you be given customer orders? 21 A. No. 22 Q. Where would they be received? 23 A. Planning and scheduling. 24 Q. And where was planning and 25 scheduling located? 39 Sfiscko-Cross 1 A. In front of the building which is the south 2 end. 3 Q. Was the planning and scheduling 4 department limited to I Building, or did it cover 5 planning and scheduling for the entire plant? 6 A. I Building, customer service. 7 Q. Were there occasions during your 8 tenure as general foreman where you would have to 9 have fiber shipped to you from other 10 Johns-Manville facilities because you had run out 11 of a certain product? 12 MR. CARUSO: I object to the form. 13 A. Not to my knowledge. I never got into that. 14 I never got into that. 15 Q. Who would be in charge of that? 16 MR. TORTORETI: I object to the form 17 of the question. 18 A. If what you are saying is there was any 19 shortage of fiber and we had to get it from 20 another location? 21 Q. Yes, sir. 22 A. That would be division headquarters. 23 Q. To your knowledge, did that ever 24 occur where Manville would have to order, for 25 instance, from Waukegan? 40 Sfiscko-Cross 1 A. Not due to shortage. If there was a trial 2 run to be made and they wanted to use some of the 3 Waukegan fiber as a cross check, that was 4 possible. That was possible. 5 Q. To your knowledge did that ever 6 occur? 7 A. We used -- it is possible that we got fiber. 8 Q. Sir, I'm going to ask you to look at 9 what has been marked as exhibit - 10 A. Can I take a break? 11 Q. I'm sorry, sir. 12 (Whereupon, a recess is taken.) 13 (Whereupon, the deposition resumes.) 14 Q. Sir, we were discussing earlier the 15 fact that blend cards were prepared based on the 16 availability of various fibers. Is that correct? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. Okay. 19 I believe you testified earlier in 20 the week that you had certain discretion to 21 change the content of certain types of pipe 22 without changing the master blends, if you will. 23 Is that correct? 24 A. We had some latitude, if that is what you 25 are saying. 41 Sfiscko-Cross 1 Q. Yes, sir, did you have latitude to 2 change the blends in certain ways without 3 actually changing the master blend? 4 MR. CARUSO: I object to the form of 5 the question. 6 Q. Yes or no. 7 A. I would say no, but we did have the 8 latitude of changing with a new blend number, 9 okay. 10 Q. And would that have been a blend 11 that you had used previously? 12 A. It could have been. It is what we call a 13 deviation. 14 Q. And you would deviate from blends - 15 strike that. 16 For example purposes, we'll say the 17 date is March 14th, 1950. And you have a blend 18 in effect for a certain water pipe, okay, sir, 19 we'll assume that is correct for now. 20 A. 21 Okay. Q. Did you have the latitude of 22 deviating from that blend to a previous blend? 23 That is my question. 24 A. Through the deviation procedure we, 25 depending on availability, if we had a blend like 42 Sfiscko-Cross 1 it called for a certain class of fiber, type of 2 fiber, and we wanted to use, instead of using 60 3 percent, we wanted to use 40 percent or 30 4 percent, we wanted to substitute another fiber 5 for another period we would ask for a deviation. 6 Q. You wouldn't have to run that 7 through divisional headquarters, would you? 8 A. I would go to -- it depends, if it was 9 something new, possible. If it was something 10 previously done we had the number. We didn't 11 have it, because the deviation was in effect for 12 a period of 30 days, 60 dys, and they gave us a 13 deviation for a period of time that we were 14 requested. It depended on availability, without 15 naming types of fiber. 16 Q. Does that mean, sir, that from 17 looking at your file of blend cards in your 18 office that you would not be able to tell from 19 those records whether you had followed that exact 20 blend 30 days previously? 21 MR. CARUSO: I object to the form. 22 MR. TORTORETI: So do I. 23 A. I don't understand the question. 24 Q. Okay. Let me rephrase it. 25 We used, for example purposes, the 43 Sfiscko-Cross 1 date March 14th, 1950. Let us assume, sir, that 2 you had a type of water pipe, and you had a blend 3 of fibers listed on a card in your office. And 4 the effective date, or the approval date of that 5 card had been January 1st, 1950. 6 Q. Even though that card was still 7 considered effective you could deviate from that 8 formula? 9 A. What do you mean by deviate? 10 Q. You used the term deviation, could 11 you deviate from the formula listed on that card? 12 A. Based upon - 13 Q.Within your discretion, sir. 14 A. Within my discretion, based on availability 15 what we had in inventory, if that card said we 16 could use this type and this type, on or the 17 other, that was our prerogative, yes. 18 Q. Could you deviate from that card 19 entirely and go to a prior formula that had been 20 utilized for the same type of water pipe? 21 A. If it was active. There is a little bit 22 more to it than what you are saying, because - 23 Q. Okay, sir. 24 A. All right. 25 Q. If it was active, so it would still 44 Sfiscko-Cross 1 have to be in effect? 2 A. Yes, we had several active based on size, 3 diameter, class of pipe that was manufactured on 4 the machine. We didn't have one end blend, we 5 had several. 6 Q. Okay, we'll take water pipe, for 7 example. 8 A. That was broken down. 9 Q. And it was broken down into various 10 classes? 11 A. Diameters, and classes. 12 Q. What type -- what are the various 13 diameters of the water pipe? 14 A. We went from 4 inch to 36 inch. 15 Q. And for the various diameters, would 16 there be various blends for each diameter? 17 A. 4 to 8 inch could be classified as one end 18 blend. 10 through 12 could be classified as one 19 end blend. 14 through 18 could be classified. 20 20 to 36 could be classified as one end blend. 21 Q. Within -- strike that. 22 For each end blend could you use 23 different formulas as listed on active blend 24 cards? 25 MR. CARUSO: I object to the form of 45 Sfiscko-Cross 1 the question. 2 A. What you are saying, different type of 3 fiber, if I understand. 4 A. Yes, sir. 5 As I said before, if the grade 4 fiber was 6 equal and depending on availability we would use 7 it and ask for a deviation that would be granted. 8 This is why 1947 we had an M 12, we're up to last 9 time I remember, up to M A 8 hundred. So that 10 shows how many blends we used in a 15 year period. 11 Q. So if there were substitute fibers 12 - 13 A. And we had permission to do it, we would do 14 it. 15 Q. Who would you have to get permission 16 from? 17 A. We would go to Quality Control Department, 18 and they would go to the division, and they would 19 grant us the permission. And that would be over 20 the period of time where this fiber was available. 21 Q. I'm still not sure that I understand 22 where your discretion lay with respect to using 23 fibers interchangably, even though they were not 24 listed as interchangable on a certain blend card. 25 A. We knew from our operation standpoint what 46 Sfiscko-Cross 1 was interchangable, grade 4 fibers. 2 Q. You knew in your mind what was 3 interchangable? 4 A. I did, from past experience, I knew, 5 without mentioning types. I knew what we -- what 6 product we could -- what fiber we could use, and 7 the results. From my past experience I knew what 8 had to be done. 9 Q. From your experience as general 10 foreman in production, is it your testimony that 11 you knew what fibers were interchangable with 12 other fibers. 13 A. 14 That is correct. Q. That knowledge -- did you ever write 15 down what fibers were interchangable with other 16 fibers? 17 A. We kept a log book in the forming end and 18 actually we, in this log book, we would enter 19 what we interchanged with, and then we would go 20 back to the quality control and say we were doing 21 this. I was being audited every day as far as 22 quality control, as far as following 23 specifications. 24 Q. Let's talk about quality control for 25 a second, if 2 fibers of the same grade were 47 Sfiscko-Cross 1 interchangable and you used one fiber in place of 2 the other, even though the other was listed on a 3 blend card, quality control would not notice the 4 difference in the end product. Is that correct? 5 A. You said if we substituted one for the 6 other. That is not true in all cases. We can 7 substitute 50 percent, 25 percent, depending on 8 availability. We could use 2 types of 4, if they 9 were both available, if there was only one 10 available , we would use one type. If one had a 11 higher inventory than the other, we would ratio 12 it to the inventory control. 13 Q. Did there come a time, sir, when J M 14 supplied its own fiber to I Building? 15 A. You mean the 4T grade? 16 Q. Yes, sir. 17 A. 18 Yes, that came around. Q. Was that after the task force 19 committee? 20 A. During and after. 21 Q. So although there was no J M fiber 22 in I Building in 1947, in the early 50 's there 23 was a J M fiber supplied to I Building ? 24 MR. CARUSO: I object to the form. 25 MR. TORTORETI: I object to the form. 48 Sfiscko-Cross 1 Q. Is that correct, sir? 2 A. Yes. 3 MR. CARUSO: Hold on a second. 4 First time you said J M 4T, then you said J M. 5 That was the basis of my objection. 6 MR. LACEY: Okay. 7 A. That is all we ever used. 8 MS. TONELLI: I'm sorry, could you 9 keep your voices up, please. 10 Q. J M 4 T fiber was the only 11 Johns-Manville product ever used in I Building. 12 Is that correct? 13 MR. CARUSO: I object to the form. 14 A. As far as manufacturing pipe, okay, there 15 was other fibers used for wet patch molding, and 16 stuff like that, like a 5 grade. But not for 17 manufacturing. And that was requisitioned from H 18 building, 5 grades, whatever was available. It 19 could have been a 5 or 6 or 7 grade. 20 Q. Let me see if I understand your 21 testimony, sir. From 1947 until 1967 were there 22 various grades of Johns-Manville fiber utilized 23 in I Building? 24 A. You said 47. Let's go to 50 -25 Q. I said from 1947 to 67. Any time 49 Sfiscko-Cross 1 during -- strike that question. 2 Sir, at some time in the early 1950's 3 Johns-Manville asbestos products were utilized in 4 I Building. Is that correct? 5 A. Correct. 6 Q. Those products included in 7 Johns-Manville grade 4 T product. 8 A. Grade 4. 9 Q. Grade 4 product. 10 Did the products utilized in I 11 Building in the early 1950's include a 12 Johns-Manville grade 5 asbestos product? 13 A. For manufacturing, no. 14 Q. I said in I Building. 15 MR. MC CARTHY: When you are saying 16 product, are you talking about raw fiber? 17 A. When you say product, it is manufactured 18 product. The answer would be no. 19 Q. A Johns-Manville grade 4 product was 20 utilized in production in I Building in the early 21 1950's. Is that correct, sir? 22 A. It started. 23 Q. And was it used through the 24 remaining period of your tenure as general 25 foreman in I Building? 50 Sfiscko-Cross 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. And that tenure ended in 1967 as 3 general foreman. Is that correct? 4 A. Well, I was superintendent. But go ahead. 5 You do what you want? 6 Q. And your tenure in 1967 in I 7 Building ended -- and your tenure in I Building 8 ended in 1967, sir? 9 A. Well, it was either 67 -- in that area, all 10 right. 11 Q. So, sir, from the early 1950's until 12 at least 19 -- until approximately 1967, a 13 Johns-Manville grade 4 product was utilized in 14 the production of pipe in I Building. Is that 15 correct, sir? 16 A. 17 1950's, you said? Q. Early 1950's to 1967. 18 A. 19 Yes, yes. Q. That was raw asbestos fiber that was 20 utilized. Is that correct? 21 A. That is correct. 22 Q. Was that Johns-Manville grade 4 23 fiber interchangable with any other fibers? 24 A. My answer to that would be no. Only as a 25 substitute, up to a certain percent. 51 Sfiscko-Cross 1 Q. Johns-Manville grade 4 fiber could 2 be substituted for other grade 4 fibers? 3 A. Only up to a certain percent. Not a 100 4 percent. 5 Q. I understand that, sir. 6 A. Well, it is a matter of record. 7 Q. Is it your testimony that 8 Johns-Manville grade 4 asbestos fiber could be 9 substituted in some percentage for other grade 4 10 asbestos fibers? 11 A. Correct, correct. 12 Q. And that is for the entire period 13 from the early 1950's to 1967? 14 A. Well, I would have to give you a qualified 15 answer. Now, I would say yes with the 16 establishment of improving the quality of J M 17 fiber. The percent of substitution increased. 18 Q. Did there come a time when 19 Johns-Manville was -- strike that. 20 Did there come a time when 21 Johns-Manville fiber was substituted completely 22 for other grade 4 fibers between the early 1950's 23 and 1967? 24 MR. TORTORETI: I object to the form 25 of the question. 52 Sfiscko-Cross 1 MR. CARUSO: I object. 2 A. On -- not a 100 percent. Now, if you want 3 me to go into a little more detail. 4 Q. Sir, we'll go into another area. 5 you stated that within the various grades of 6 fiber there were certain -- strike that. 7 Sir, within the various grades of 8 fiber were there certain fibers that were longer 9 than others? 10 MR. CARUSO: I object to the form. 11 MR. TORTORETI: So do I. 12 A. 13 That is not a clear question. Q. Do you understand the question? 14 A. I understand the question, but if you are 15 talking about fiber length, or percent of clean 16 fiber, there is a variation in your question. 17 Q. Were there some fibers that were 18 longer than others? 19 A. Blue. 20 Q. The blue fiber was the longest fiber? 21 A. The blue had -- normally the blue was 22 longerfiber, unless you got into 3grades or 2 23 grades. 24 Q. Can you tell me in 1947 the 25 approximate tonnage of pipe per day that was 53 Sfiscko-Cross 1 produced in I Building? 2 A. 3 Here we go. MR. CARUSO: I just wish to state 4 for the record and I'm obviously not going to 5 direct the witness not to answer. But I believe 6 that exact question was asked a couple of times 7 before. But go ahead, if you can answer it go 8 ahead. 9 A. It is pretty hard. It all depends what you 10 are making. You see, your form time, I would 11 have to give you a little -- in an 8 hour period 12 there is 480 minutes. Your form time could be 13 320 minutes due to what you are making. The 14 other 160 minutes can be non-form time, mandrel 15 changes and so on. So you cannot tie it down to 16 tons. 17 Q. And there was down time on the 18 machines? 19 A. Down time, exactly. I would be here a 20 month explaining the whole operation. 21 Q. And on a daily basis, you couldn't 22 possibly give an average of tonnage produced per 23 day? 24 A. Take it on a monthly basis per machine. 25 Q. I'm talking on a daily basis. 54 Sfiscko-Cross 1 A. It is the same thing what I'm saying, if I 2 take it monthly and put it back in daily, take 24 3 operating days and put it into average one day, 4 could be 50 ton a day. 5 Q. Was production uniform for each 6 month, or did you have a variety? 7 A. At the beginning of 47, it was strictly 8 mostly water pipe. And the variety didn't change 9 until later. When we got into sewer pipe getting 10 into the latter years. 11 Q. That was in the early 1950's? 12 A. Sewer pipe came predominently in the middle 13 50's. 14 Q. Sir, I'm going to ask you to look at 15 a document that I believe you have seen before 16 during this deposition, and it is marked B 0 0 9 17 0 5, do you recognize that document from the 18 other day? 19 A. I recognize the document only based on what 20 I was given from this document to use. 21 Q. I understand, sir. 22 Did you read the contents of the 23 document marked 0 0 9 0 5? 24 A. I read it up here. 25 Q. And did you 55 Sfiscko-Cross 1 MR. CARUSO: Indicating the third 2 paragraph. 3 Q. Do you recall division headquarters 4 ever contacting you concerning deviations from 5 the blend cards? 6 A. I would work through the quality control. 7 Q. Did you ever work -- did quality 8 control ever tell you there had been too many 9 deviations from the blend cards? 10 A. I don't believe I ever got turned down. 11 This was one -- this was our number one job, 12 control of fiber, we were strict. This is all 13 based on future expansion of the other plants too. 14 which it didn't state there. 15 Q. Did you, sir, always notify division 16 headquarters of changes in the use of fiber 17 blends? 18 A. I worked with quality control, as I said 19 before, and we worked in close conjunction on 20 availability of the fibers. And we always -- we 21 always anticipated what we were going to use in 22 the future. It didn't work out that way, because 23 the strikes and what have you, but there was 24 times we had problems. 25 Q. In essence, what you would do is 56 Sfiscko-Cross 1 make a pro forma budget of production? 2 A. What do you mean by - 3 Q. You attempted to anticipate what 4 production would be produced during a certain 5 month? 6 A. We knew by the orders that we had on hand 7 that we could project the usage for at least 4 to 8 6 weeks; whether it was water pipe, sewer pipe or 9 not. Because these orders were enormous and 10 shipments would be by truckload or carload. 11 Q. You mentioned strikes earlier, sir. 12 were there strikes during the 1947 to 1967 period 13 in I Building? 14 A. There was a strike before that. And one 15 after that that I know of. 16 Q. I'm asking from 1947 to 1967. 17 A. 18 There was one strike. Q. And when was that? 19 MR. CARUSO: Did you limit your 20 question to I Building? 21 THE WITNESS: The strike was at 22 Manville plant. 23 Q. And the strike included a strike of 24 I Building? 25 A. Correct. 57 Sfiscko-Cross 1 Q. Can you recall when that was? 2 A. I don't know whether it was in the late 3 60's, or early -- could have been the late 60's 4 I'm not sure. I'm not sure. 5 Q. Was it during the 1947 and 1967 6 period? 7 A. No, I was in division headquarters, but we 8 were located at the plant, okay. Now, we were at 9 the Manville hotel and we were involved because 10 we couldn't get to our place of work because it 11 was part of the Manville complex. 12 13 A. Q. What was the reason for the strike? You better ask industrial relations and the 14 union. I did not get involved. As far as issue 15 was concerned, only thing I know there was 16 grievances that could have been 20 or 30 17 different grievances. 18 Q. Do you know how long the strike 19 lasted, approximately? 20 A. Could have been a couple of months, I don,t 21 know. 22 Q. During those couple of months 23 production was eliminated? 24 A. Ceased. Some shipments were made. 25 Q. Sir, I believe earlier you testified, 58 Sfiscko-Cross 1 not today, but earlier in the week, that Manville 2 was a pilot plant for certain products? 3 A. During the task force days we -- I wouldn't 4 call it a pilot, we were the ginny pigs of coming 5 up with the task force, what was compelled to 6 come up with. The more usage of our own make 7 fiber and a few other things increasing the 8 quality of the product and what have you. 9 Q. Were you directed by the task force 10 to act as a ginny pig, as you've termed it? 11 A. We were directed as a task force to make 12 trial runs, okay. 13 Q. And these would be limited trial 14 runs? 15 A. Limited trial runs, 4 hours, 8 hours. 16 Q. And they would be limited trial runs 17 of various asbestos products? 18 A. Asbestos blends. 19 Q. Asbestos blends. And would they be 20 asbestos blends for water pipe, would they 21 include -- blends of water pipe? 22 A. The task force was mostly water pipe. The 23 most critical items. 24 Q. Did they deal with other types of 25 pipe as well? 59 Sfiscko-Cross 1 A. Very little in sewer pipe, very little. 2 Q. How about air duct pipe? 3 A. No. 4 Q. House connection pipe? 5 A. Not to my knowledge, no. They were pretty 6 stable as far as blends were concerned. 7 Q. You were directed by the task force 8 to - 9 A. You see at that time in 47, water pipe and 10 the 2 13 foot machines was 90 percent of the 11 production. So the 1967 it would be first, okay. 12 Q. And you were told, sir, to try 13 different types of blends in order to produce 14 water pipe to see how the product would turn out? 15 A. See how far we could go with use of our own 16 make fiber, right. 17 Q. And did you have those trial runs? 18 A. We certainly did. 19 Q. And those trial runs would be of 20 blends different from the standard blends. Is 21 that correct? 22 A. There were new blends. 23 Q. And some of those blends would later 24 be utilized and some would be discarded depending 25 on the results of your trial run? 60 Sfiscko-Cross 1 MR. CARUSO: I object to the form. 2 Q. The trial blends. 3 A. That would cover -- we did a little more 4 than that. If we had a problem, let's say, a 5 blend where we had some of our own make fiber, 6 and we had a problem with it, maybe we could do 7 something else to make that blend operable, okay. 8 You see, it wasn't where you could cut it 9 with a knife. I mean we had problems. And we 10 made a lot of bad pipe too. 11 Q. And did you come up with some new 12 blends that you utilized thereafter? 13 A. I didn't say that. I said the blends 14 probably stayed. We made other deviations 15 besides the blends to try to make this particular 16 blend operable. Do you want me to tell you what, 17 I'll tell you. 18 Q. You don't have to, sir. 19 A. Okay. 20 Q. Sir, you've stated that you would 21 personally take an inventory of a fiber contained 22 -- 23 A. Monthly. 24 Q. A monthly inventory. 25 A. Right, turn it over to the finance 61 Sfiscko-Cross 1 department. 2 Q. Earlier in your testimony you stated 3 that you took some courses after high school. 4 A. Yes, I went to Rutgers at night. 5 Q. What courses did you take there? 6 A. Management courses. 7 Q. For how long did you attend school 8 there? 9 A. 0, one or 2 nights a week, for -- some was 10 one night a week, some was 2 nights a week, could 11 have been a 6 week period each one or something 12 like that. 13 Q. When was that approximately? 14 A. 15 Oh, 60's probably. Q. Did you take any other courses 16 between high school and 1967? 17 A. Management courses whenI was 18 engineering, in-house. industrial 19 Q. What did they train you on? 20 How did they train you? 21 22 A. MR. CARUSO: I object to the form. It covered everythingthat industrial 23 engineer has to -- had to do. It was industrial 24 engineering course. 25 MR. LACEY: At this time I will 62 Sfiscko-Cross 1 defer to Ms. Tonelli of McCarter & English. 2 However, I reserve the right to ask some 3 questions later. I had several more questions. 4 However, out of courtesy to Ms. Tonelli, and the 5 government and Mr. Rasnek and other defense 6 counsel in this matter, if necessary, I'll defer 7 my questioning until they have completed theirs 8 (Whereupon, there is an 9 off-the-record discussion.) 10 11 CROSS EXAMINATION BY MS. TONELLI: 12 13 Q. Mr. Sfiscko, my name is Gay Lynn 14 Tonelli and I represent several defendants in 15 this litigation. If you have any problems 16 hearing me, please let me know and I'll repeat 17 the question for you. 18 MR. CARUSO: Can you identify your 19 group? 20 (Whereupon, there is off-the-record 21 discussion.) 22 Q. Mr. Sfiscko, a lot of the questions 23 I'm going to be asking you may seem repetitious. 24 I'm asking them for a reason. I would like to 25 get down certain ideas and concepts in sequence 63 Sfiscko-Cross 1 so we have a good understanding of how things 2 happened and fill in a few holes along the way. 3 Please forgive me if they are somewhat 4 repetitious. 5 You testified as to certain grades 6 of fiber. Were the grades of fiber standard 7 throughout the industry? 8 A. Beyond my realm, I wouldn't know that. 9 Q. Hypothetically, if you received a 10 grade 4 fiber what would that say to you? 11 A. It was a grade 4 fiber. 12 Q. And what did grade 4 denote? 13 A. I couldn't say. 14 Q. Mr. Sfiscko, is -- what is the 15 difference between a blend book and a 16 specification book? 17 A. A blend book is what we actually used at a 18 given plant. Specification book gave you the 19 percent of blend to be used for certain diameter 20 class of products. Like your 6 inch 150, 15 21 percent blend, that was it. A blend book would 22 be the blend used at that time, with the 15 23 percent to be used in the manufacturing of that 6 24 inch pipe. That is the best way I can explain it. 25 Q. Do you know who supplied J M with 64 Sfiscko-Cross 1 specifications for the specification book? 2 MR. CARUSO: Objection to the form 3 of the question. 4 MS. TONELLI: What is your objection? 5 MR. CARUSO: Well, first of all, you 6 are assuming it wasn't somebody other than J M. 7 Q. Who supplied the specifications for 8 the specification book? 9 A. That came out of division headquarters. 10 Q. Did I Building receive a copy of the 11 specification book? 12 A. 13 Quality control, they were the keepers. Did I Building receive a copy of the blend 14 book? 15 A. 16 Blend book was a division book. Q. That is from the division 17 headquarters again? 18 A. Division headquarters. 19 Q. Do you know who supplied the blends 20 to division headquarters? 21 MR. CARUSO: Objection to the form 22 of the question? 23 A. That could work both ways. 24 Q. I'm going to give you a hypothetical: 25 An order is received by quality 65 Sfiscko-Cross 1 control in I Building for 13 foot 8 inch water 2 pipe. What happens after that order is received? 3 MR. CARUSO: I object to the form. 4 A. The word order confuses me. You are not 5 talking about a customer order, are you? 6 Q. I'm talking about a customer order. 7 MR. CARUSO: Same objection. 8 A. It had no correlation. If you had said 9 what specification to be used for 8 inch 150 pipe, 10 that is a different story. 11 Q. If you have the directive from 12 quality control to make 8 inch water pipe 13 foot, 13 what is your first step in preparing to make that 14 pipe? 15 A. Use the blend that is specified for that 16 class of pipe. 17 Q. How do you know what blend is 18 specified for that class of pipe? 19 A. We have active blend cards. 20 Q. Are these blend cards contained in 21 the blend book, or are they separate from the 22 blend book? 23 A. They are part of the blend book for that 24 location. 25 MR. LACEY: Off the record. 66 Sfiscko-Cross 1 (Whereupon, there is an 2 off-the-record discussion.) 3 MR. LACEY: I'm a little confused 4 here, because I understood the witness to say 5 that the blend book was a division headquarter's 6 book. And thus would be located in division 7 headquarters. Am I wrong? 8 MR. CARUSO: Well, I think if you 9 would have stopped after you said I understood 10 the witness to say that the blend book was a 11 division headquarter's book period, then you 12 would be a 100 percent correct. The inference 13 from the remainder of your statement that and it 14 was located at division headquarters, I assume 15 was also true, but perhaps the inference from 16 your statement is that it excluded a copy of a 17 book at a plant facility. 18 And I further object on the grounds 19 that, I think when the witness said that it is a 20 division headquarters book, his previous 21 testimony is clear that it was generated at 22 division headquarters. So he may have been using 23 it in that regard. 24 MR. LACEY: Okay. Off the record 25 (Whereupon, there is an 67 sfiscko_Cross 1 off-the-record discussion.) 2 Q. Mr. Sfiscko, some of the attorneys 3 in the room have expressed some confusion 4 concerning the blend book. So let's try and 5 clear that up. 6 Was there a copy of the blend book 7 at I building? 8 A. No. The blend book at division 9 headquarters covered the 6 pipe plants in 10 existence in the plant, whatever it was. All the 11 plants. 12 Q. It covered all the plants, but did 13 you have a copy of that book in I building? 14 A. 15 No. Q. That was for their recordkeeping. Did you have blend cards in I 16 Building? 17 A. Blend cards. 18 Q. were those blend cards made from the 19 specifications book? 20 A. Blend cards were made from the blends given 21 to us by division headquarters for certain size 22 and class of every product to be made. 23 Q. How did division headquarters 24 transmit to you that information? 25 A. You have it right here. 68 sfiscko_Cross 1 Q. But they didn't transmit it to you 2 in the form of the blend book? 3 A. No, it was through letters written to each 4 plant stating what could be used, and deviations 5 were necessary. We would have to go to our 6 Quality Control Department through headquarters, 7 to -- you've got it. 8 Q. All right. Right now let's stick 9 with the blend book and the blend cards. So you 10 would receive letters or memoranda from division 11 headquarters telling you what blends you could 12 use? 13 A. 14 That is correct. Q. From those letters or memoranda, you 15 would create blend cards? 16 A. Quality control did. 17 Q. Quality control created blend cards. 18 They actually transferred the information from 19 the letters to the cards? 20 A. There you are. 21 Q. Was that part of your duties to 22 transfer that information? 23 A. No, I said quality control. 24 Q. When you received a blend card would 25 you use that blend on that card for an indefinite 69 sfiscko_Cross 1 period of time? 2 A. Depending on the availibility of the fiber 3 that we had on hand, yes. 4 Q. Would you occasionally receive 5 instructions to take certain blends out of your 6 active file? 7 A. That would happen depending on the 8 availability of the fibers. 9 Q. When you were directed to make 13 10 foot 8 inch water pipe were you also directed to 11 use a specific blend? 12 A. 13 What was active at that time. Q. In other words, you could go to the 14 file and see which blends were available to use 15 and pick out one of those blends? 16 A. In my -- in the forming office we had an 17 active blend card that we could use. But if it 18 came inactive to quality control we would pull 19 these blends out and substitute another active 20 card. 21 Q. Hypothetically, if you had 10 blends 22 to make 8 inch water pipe, 13 foot long, could 23 you use any of those 10 blends? 24 A. 25 I never had 10 blends. Q. Hypothetically 70 sfiscko-Cross 1 MR. TORTORETI: I object to the form 2 of the question. 3 A. Maybe 2. 4 Q. Hypothetically, if you had 2 blends, 5 could you use either of those blends? 6 A. Depending on availability, we had our 7 choice. 8 Q. Who had the discretion to choose 9 which blend to use? 10 A. I did, because depending on availability of 11 the fiber. For either one we could use it. 12 Q. Did it ever happen that you were out 13 of fiber for all of the available blends? 14 A. Many, we were out, we were out depending on 15 deliveries, yes, one type of fiber to purchase 16 another type of fiber. 17 Q. At those times did you file a 18 deviation request? 19 A. If we didn't have an active blend, yes. 20 Q. How long would it take to get your 21 deviation request approved? 22 A. Less than 24 hours. 23 Q. When you received a deviation 24 request approval did that constitute another 25 blend card, or was it simply -- 71 sfiscko-Cross 1 A. Correct. 2 Q. It did. 3 And did that blend card remain in 4 your active file from that point forward? 5 A. For the period of time we requested. If we 6 asked for 30 days, it would be 30 days. If we 7 asked it for 60 days it would be 60 days. 8 Q. I would like to ask you a question 9 concerning substitutions. Is it accurate to 10 state that if you didn't have the available fiber 11 type to comply with any of the blend card 12 formulas in your active file, you would have to 13 file a deviation? 14 A. 15 That is correct. Q. In other words, you had no 16 individual discretion to substitute say one blue 17 fiber for another unless there was a blend card 18 which said that that formula was approved? 19 A. Blue was not a part of it. I mean blue was 20 blue, 4 grades. 21 Q. When you say blue is blue, does that 22 mean that any blue fiber you had in stock you 23 could use when the card stated blue fiber? 24 A. 25 Any qualified blue fiber. Q. When you start talking about the 72 sfiscko-Cross 1 grades of fibers is it fair to state that if you 2 did not have a blend card which specified that 3 grade of fiber you could not freely substitute 4 one grade for another -- excuse me, strike that. 5 You cannot freely substitute one 6 fiber for another within the same grade. 7 MR. CARUSO: Objection to form. 8 MR. TORTORETI: Objection. 9 MS. TONELLI: I'll withdraw the 10 question. 11 Q. Is it fair to state that within a 12 grade of fiber you could not use a substituted 13 fiber that was not listed in an approved blend 14 formula? 15 A. 16 To answer that - Q. Do you understand the question? 17 A. I understand that question. We anticipate, 18 we did not work from hand to mouth. 19 Q. Okay. Let me ask you some questions 20 about the basis of your anticipation. Did you 21 ever take inventory of the warehouse? 22 A. Once a month, fiber. 23 Q. Was this your personal inventory of 24 the warehouse? 25 A. My job period. 73 sfiscko-Cross 1 Q Your job was to take an inventory 2 once a month? 3 A. I did. 4 Q. Was in the time period from 1947 to 5 1967, the inventories that you took once per 6 month, were those inventories used to compile 7 inventory lists for headquarters, division 8 headquarters? 9 MR. CARUSO: I object to the form. 10 You can answer. 11 A. 12 It went to the finance department. Q. The inventories you took went to the 13 finance department. 14 A. 15 Financedepartment. Q. Did anyone else in the J M 16 organization take an inventory of the warehouse 17 every month? 18 MR. TORTORETI: The I Building 19 warehouse? 20 Q. Yes. 21 A. If I was on vacation my assistant would do 22 it. That was only about maybe once a year. I 23 never took my full vacation. That was another 24 part of the job. 25 Q. Do you know what the purpose of 74 sfiscko-Cross 1 sending the inventory to the finance department 2 was? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. What was that purpose? 5 A. It was to correlate the actual inventory at 6 the end of the month with the reports that went 7 to the finance on a daily basis showing the usage 8 and if there was a differential it would be added 9 or subtracted from the usage. It was a control. 10 Q. Who made usage reports? 11 A. Usage reports were made at the willow. 12 Q. Were those made through the use of 13 willow tallies? 14 A. Willow tally sheets, right. 15 Q. Who made the willow tally sheets? 16 A. What do you mean by that, who put the 17 numbers in there? 18 Q. Yes. 19 A. The willow operator for every batch he made, 20 he would make an x. If he made 15 x's he made 15 21 batches in that period of time. 22 Q. And who compiled those tally sheets? 23 A. Compiled at the end of the day, reviewed by 24 me and turned over to the finance department. 25 Q. And the finance department then -- 75 Sfiscko-Cross 1 A. Reported on their daily statements, 2 whatever they - 3 Q. Who made the decisions as to what 4 raw fibers would be ordered for the I Building? 5 A. Division headquarters ordered all fibers 6 for all plants. 7 Q. Did you have any input as to what 8 fibers were ordered? 9 A. We tried. 10 Q. What do you mean by we tried? 11 A. If we wanted a certain grade of fiber 12 without mentioning names, we tried to get that 13 particular type of fiber, sometimes it works and 14 sometimes it didn't. 15 16 A. Q. Mr. Sfiscko, what is a point value? There again, it was a system that was 17 established which I can't explain how they 18 derived this point value. You would have to go 19 to Mr. Whalen and Mr. Daley, or somebody that 20 really established this point value with the 21 asbestos. Only thing I know that if point value 22 was 72 we could use it in water pipe. If it was 23 68 we could use it in sewer pipe. 24 Q. Was there a point value for every 25 grade of fiber? 76 Sfiscko-Cross 1 A. Our own fiber. 2 Q. Just your own fiber? 3 A. The other fibers didn't need it. 4 Q. What is the Asbestos Fiber Division? 5 A. Asbestos Fiber Division, what can I tell 6 you. 7 Q. What is its purpose? 8 MR. CARUSO: I object. Hold on a 9 second. I object to the form of the question. 10 This witness has answered that exact question 11 twice before in 3 days previous. 12 MS. TONELLI: The reason I ask this 13 question, because there is still some confusion 14 as to what the Asbestos Fiber Division does. 15 MR. CARUSO: Answer the question 16 again. 17 Q. Can you tell me what the Asbestos 18 Fiber Division does? 19 A. They mine the fiber, right, they take this 20 fiber and they mine it, bring it to the plant, 21 segregate it by class, and ship the fiber to 22 different locations. 23 Q. So they deal soley with the 24 production of the fiber? 25 MR. CARUSO: I object to the form. 77 Sfiscko-Cross 1 Q. Did they deal with the production of 2 the fiber? 3 MR. RASNEK: Objection as to form, 4 what timeframe. 5 Q. From 1947 to 1967. 6 A. Well, they were in existence in 47. They 7 were in existence before 47. Now, they had their 8 own, as far as I know, they had their own 9 customer service. They had their own bailey wick. 10 They handled the shipments to wherever they - 11 where ever the customer demanded the fiber. That 12 is as much as I can tell you. You would have to 13 go to the source, and get their functions. 14 Q. You stated before that you were 15 audited daily to see if you were in confirmation 16 with the specifications. 17 A. That is correct. 18 Q. Who audited you? 19 A. Quality control. 20 Q. Mr. Sfiscko, I believe you testified 21 that you had no direct supervision over the 22 receiving department. Is that correct? 23 A. That is correct. 24 Q. During the period 1947 to 67, did 25 you see material coming into the receiving 78 Sfiscko-Cross 1 department? 2 A. I've been back there, yes. 3 Q. Did material come in in trucks? 4 A. What material? 5 Q. Raw asbestos. 6 A. All Jeffrey fibers, our own fibers came by 7 freight. 8 Q. Did outside fibers come from various 9 - 10 A. Blue fiber which came from overseas came to 11 the docks and shipped by truck. Other fibers 12 that came from Canada, or U.S., came by freight. 13 If there was any other fiber that came from one 14 plant to another, it could have came either way. 15 It all depends what location. And that 16 rarely happened. It is possible that Waukegan 17 should have shipped fiber to Manville by truck. 18 That is the only location that I can think of 19 right now. 20 Q. When you had raw fiber in the 21 warehouse, in inventory, did you use that fiber 22 in any particular order? Now, let me explain 23 that a little bit more. 24 A. 25 It was received. Q. You used it as received? 79 Sfiscko-Cross 1 A. That is what you are going to say. 2 Q. Did you use the first fiber received 3 or the last fiber received? 4 Do you understand the question? 5 A. What type fiber are you talking about? 6 Q. Raw asbestos fiber. 7 A. J M,or outside. 8 Q. Was there a difference in the usage? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. All right. J M fiber. 11 A. J M fiber, you see, when that J M fiber 12 came in, it could have been high piled. High 13 piled is when you stack an area as big as this 14 room and stack it maybe 20, 30 rows high. That 15 fiber could have been there 6 months, or a year. 16 As other fiber came in, it was palletized, 17 put on wood pallets, that could have been used 18 before the high pile. 19 Q. Was the outside fiber ever high 20 piled? 21 A. Only at the beginning of 47. But after - 22 well, go ahead. 23 Q. When did you stop high piling 24 outside fiber? 25 A. When the fiber came -- when the fiber 80 Sfiscko-Cross 1 availability came down. 2 Q. And when did the fiber availability 3 come down? 4 A. In the 50's. 5 Q. Early 50's? 6 A. Well, when we went to the expansion program 7 of other plants. It could have been Marrero, 8 could have been one plant after the other. Then 9 the -- and then due to the task force, and due to 10 the classification of pipes that we had to make. 11 There was a lot of things that get into the 12 picture. Then the fiber availability. We 13 started to use more Jeffery because we were 14 making more sewer pipe. It is a complicated 15 things we generated more of our own fiber as we 16 made more sewer pipe. 17 Q. Hypothetically, if you had outside 18 fiber A, and you had 10 bags of outside fiber A 19 in the warehouse, and you received in another 10 20 bags, would you use 10 bags that were in the 21 warehouse first, or would it make any difference 22 to you? 23 MR. TORTORETI: Objection to the 24 form of the question. 25 MR. CARUSO: Objection. 81 Sfiscko-Cross 1 A. When fiber comes in, you put them on 2 pallets, you go maybe 20 rows. If you have 10 3 rows left and another shipment comes in, they put 4 that in front of the older fiber. So, we 5 couldn't go in the back, it would be against the 6 law. So we had to use the present fiber, simple 7 as that. 8 Q. You may not be able to answer this 9 question for me. How long would a shipment of 10 outside fiber be in the warehouse? 11 MR. CARUSO: Objection to the form 12 of the question. I think it is vaguely defective. 13 You have to ask him, depends on the size of the 14 shipment, I would think. 15 MR. TORTORETI: I object to the form 16 of the question. 17 MS. TONELLI: I withdraw the question. 18 Q. Mr. Sfiscko, during the time period 19 1947 through 1967 did you at any time have the 20 occasion to work with purchase orders? 21 A. No, no. 22 Q. During the period 1947 through 1967, 23 did you at any time have occasion to work with 24 invoices? 25 A. Not to work with, no. 82 Sfiscko-Cross 1 Q. Did you at any time have occasion to 2 see invoices? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. When did you see invoices? 5 A. It is possible when they came in, or I 6 could run up to the finance department -- they 7 were laying on the desk, or if we had a 8 discrepancy, our inventory control, we would 9 review what came in, and what was used, things 10 like that. 11 Q. Was it part of your duties during 12 1947 through 1967 to review every invoice? 13 A. No. 14 Q. For the period 1947 through 1967, 15 are you aware of the names of the producers of 16 the outside raw asbestos fiber received in I 17 Building? 18 MR. CARUSO: Hold on. Can I have 19 that question read back. 20 ( Whereupon, the reporter reads back.) 21 MR. CARUSO: I object to the form. 22 MR. TORTORETI: So do I. 23 MR. LACEY: Objection. 24 A. 4 T fiber from my own mind I knew, right. 25 But the other fibers, I'm not mentioning names, I 83 Sfiscko-Cross 1 can tell you what the names were, but I couldn't 2 tell you. 3 Q. My question is: Can you tell me who 4 made them? 5 MR. CARUSO: I object to the form of 6 the question. 7 MR. MC CARTHY: I object. 8 MR. LACEY: I object as well. 9 MR. CARUSO: Off the record. 10 (Whereupon, there is an 11 off-the- record discussion .) 12 Q. On the record. 13 Do you know the point of origin of 14 the raw asbestos outside fiber you received? 15 MR. TORTORETI: objection to the 16 form. 17 A. No. 18 Q. Do you know the names of the 19 suppliers or the brokers who supplied J M with 20 outside asbestos fiber? 21 MR. TORTORETI: Same objection. 22 MR. MC GARTH I Building in Manville? 23 MS. TONELLI: I Building in Manville 24 MR. LACEY: I note an objection as 25 to form. 84 Sfiscko-Cross 1 A. That was ordered by the division. Now, 2 where that fiber went to, the division designated 3 the plants where it would go. 4 Q. I don't think you understood my 5 question. I'll move to strike that as 6 unresponsive. 7 MR. TORTORETI: I think it is 8 responsive, and I would oppose motion to strike. 9 MR. LACEY: I would as well. 10 Q. Do you know the names of the 11 individuals or the companies who supplied the 12 fibers outside -- outside fibers to J M, I 13 Building? 14 MR. TORTORETI: Object to the form. 15 A. Between 47 and 67, no. 16 Q. I have just a few questions on 17 physical plant of I Building. 18 MR. Sfiscko, were the different 19 sections of I Building of uniform height? 20 MR. TORTORETI: Objection to the 21 form of the question. 22 MR. RASNEK: At what time? 23 Q. In 1947. 24 MR. CARUSO: Iobject to the form of 25 the question. I think you can clarify it. If 85 Sfiscko-Cross 1 you want to know the basis of my objection, I'll 2 tell you. 3 MS. TONELLI: Go ahead. 4 MR. CARUSO: From the outside 5 looking at the building, from the inside of the 6 building from what floor of the building? 7 MS. TONELLI: I'll withdraw the 8 question. 9 Q. Mr. Sfiscko, is there more than one 10 floor in I Building. 11 MR. TORTORETI: Objection to the 12 form of the question? 13 A. In the operation? 14 Q. In the operation areas. 15 A. That is a pretty hard question to answer. 16 You are talking about the roof, the roof never 17 changed, if that is what you are talking about. 18 The roof was uniform. Now, if you are talking 19 about the operation, that is something different. 20 Q. How high was the roof? 21 A. Oh, I don't know, never changed. It was 22 pretty high. But I have no idea. Maybe LaBadie 23 can tell you that. 24 Q. Was the section of I Building that 25 is marked number 25 I, which you have described 86 Sfiscko-Cross 1 as the warehouse area, how high from the inside 2 looking up was the warehouse, would you estimate? 3 A. I believe that was --. 4 MR. CARUSO: I'll object to the form 5 of the question. Your reference to number 25 I, 6 if you limit that to what he has previously 7 identified at the I Building warehouse -- the 8 problem is that the document in front of him, 9 number 25 I conceivably be the beginning of the 10 wet end, also. Do you see what I'm saying? 11 MS. COLLINS: Objection, also. I 12 think that if the document is going to be in 13 front of the witness for the purpose of the 14 record, we need to have that document identified 15 so that the names and designations can be on it 16 since there are a number of plants here, maybe we 17 can get a clean copy marked. 18 MS. TONELLI: Off the record. 19 (Whereupon, there is an 20 off-the-record discussion.) 21 Q. Mr. Sfiscko, can you tell me how 22 high looking up at the warehouse -- the warehouse 23 was, approximately? 24 A. 25 In comparison to the forming end? Q. No, just the warehouse. 87 Sfiscko-Cross 1 MR. RASNEK: Has the document in 2 front of the witness now been marked? 3 MS. TONELLI: No, off therecord. 4 (Whereupon, there is an 5 off-the-record discussion.) 6 MR. TORTORETI: Can I have the 7 question back, please. 8 (Whereupon, the reporter reads back.) 9 MR. TORTORETI: Presuming that 10 question was asked without reference to any 11 document. 12 13 A. MS. TONELLI: Yes. You want exact feet or - 14 Q. Estimate, 50, 60 feet, something 15 like that. 16 Q. And how high was the wet end 17 production area? 18 A. They were both pretty close to the same. 19 Q. Would you estimate that the height 20 of the entire production area was approximately 21 the same? 22 A. With the warehouse? 23 Q. With the warehouse, yes. 24 A. In 1947, or -- before we went to any 25 expansion? 88 Sfiscko-Cross 1 Q. Yes. 2 MR. CARUSO: I object to the form. 3 You asked him the height of the production end to 4 the height of the warehouse, or -- is that your 5 question? 6 MS. TONELLI: I'm asking him if the 7 height of the production end was approximately 8 the same as the height of the warehouse in 1947. 9 A. The height of the warehouse when it was 10 built, and the height of the forming section - 11 the height was pretty close -- identical. 12 Q. When I Building was built, was the 13 height of the warehouse and the forming section 14 approximately the same as the height of the 15 finishing end? 16 MR. TORTORETI: Objection to the 17 form of the question. 18 A. Do you want me to answer that? 19 MR. CARUSO: Sure. 20 A. The whole section there was practically one 21 height, practically one height. Put this little 22 section here by the steam tanks here where you 23 had a runway here, had a small, what do you call 24 it, sub roof, something like that. That is about 25 the only thing that varied. 89 Sfiscko-Cross 1 Q. And you are talking about the small 2 section which was to the west of the steam tanks 3 - 4 A. West of the steam -- not all of this, only 5 part. 6 Q. And south of the wet end? 7 MR. RASNEK: I object to the 8 references to the document unless it is marked. 9 MR. MC CARTHY: So do I. 10 MS. COLLINS: Please either mark it, 11 or keep it away from the witness, it will make 12 the record incredibly confusing. 13 MS. TONELLI: Can you mark this for 14 identification? 15 16 A.) (Whereupon, document is marked NS-4 17 Q. We've marked this document NS-4 A 18 for identification, this is a representation - 19 excuse me, this is a copy of a blue print of I 20 Building. This is a blow up of a 1974 site plan. 21 MR. RASNEK: Of a portion of it. 22 Q. Could you mark with the letter A the 23 portion of I Building which you stated had a 24 lower ceiling? 25 A. This one where you had a walkway and trucks 90 Sfiscko-Cross 1 would go through it, it would be right in this 2 area right here. It wasn't the whole area, 3 because here the coupling corner is. 4 Q. Could you sort of mark where that 5 area was with the lower ceiling? 6 A. Give you footage, right? 7 Q. Yes. 8 A. It could be 8 to 10 foot, something like 9 that, where the runway -- go down to -- platform 10 trucks, where trucks could travel through, you 11 could walk through. 12 Q. And how high was the ceiling at that 13 point? 14 A. Say I'm 6 feet tall, probably be another 4 15 5 feet, probably. 16 Q. Now, there were additions made to I 17 Building after 1947. Were there not? 18 A. 19 Yes. Q. Were the additions approximately the 20 same height as the warehouse and the other 21 portions of I Building which you categorized as 22 60 foot? 23 A. 24 25 A. Finishing end which was here. Q. By here, you are -This area right here. 91 Sfiscko-Cross 1 Q. Indicating number 29 A, the next 2 marked 240 by 200? 3 A. I believe this was higher. I believe it 4 was higher, but you can't hold me to it. It was 5 either equal or higher. 6 Q. Now, can you approximate how much 7 higher? 8 A. I couldn't, no. If you get the plant 9 engineer, Mr. LaBadie, he could probably tell you, 10 or whoever handled the modernization. I would 11 only be guessing. 12 Q. I believe you testified that there 13 was a firewall between the section marked number 14 25 I on this diagram NS-4 A marked 218 by 200, 15 and the section marked 203 by 282. 16 A. 17 That is right. There was a firewall there. Q. Did that firewall go from floor to 18 ceiling? 19 A. 20 All the way to - Q. Did the firewall contain doors? 21 A. We had one door here where the trucks could 22 go through, you could walk through. 23 Q. Would you mark the door on the 24 diagram? 25 A. Right there. 92 Sfiscko-Cross 1 Q. How large was that door? 2 A. Oh, it was wide enough for trucks to go 3 through. 4 Q. Could you estimate that in feet. 5 A. Oh, I don't know, 10, 12 feet, maybe. I 6 don't know. 7 Q. Was that door left open or closed? 8 A. Inwinter time, closed. Summer time, open. 9 Q. Were there any other walls between 10 any other sections of the operating plant? 11 A. You had your walls here, and you had your 12 walls here. 13 14 A. Q. Outside of outside walls. Your steam tank were walls, because they 15 are practically -- well, that was one area where 16 you couldn't see the wet end from the forming end 17 if that is what you are talking about. 18 19 A. Q. So the steam tanks were enclosed? The steam tanks were enclosed from this end, 20 in the open here, they are open, they were not 21 closed. 22 Q. What you are saying is that they 23 were enclosed on the west end -- excuse me the 24 north end and the south end? 25 A. That is correct. 93 Sfiscko-Cross 1 Q. But they were open towards the 2 ceiling? 3 A. There was no ceiling. The sky was the 4 ceiling. 5 Q. Is it fair to state that outside of 6 the firewall between the warehouse and the wet 7 end, and the walls by the steam tanks, the rest 8 of the production plant was open? 9 MR. CARUSO: I object to the form of 10 the question. 11 A. What period of time now? 12 Q. 1947. 13 A. Oh, okay, that is true, besides the man 14 door, that is true. Later on we went on the air 15 cure building. 16 Q. Was that a wall between the air cure 17 building and the wet end? 18 A. The air cure building had a truck entrance 19 only. 20 Q. How wide was that truck entrance? 21 A. 22 Could have been 10, 12 feet. Q. Was it opened or closed? 23 A. It was open when the truck went in, and it 24 was closed when the trucks weren't in. 25 Q. Was there a wall between the 94 Sfiscko-Cross 1 addition to the finishing end and the old 2 finishing end? 3 A. You mean here that -- this was all open 4 space. 5 Q. So between the new addition to the 6 finishing end and the old finishing end was all 7 opened? 8 A. All open space. 9 Q. Was there any portions of I Building 10 in 1947 that were 2 stories high, or 2 floors? 11 MR. CARUSO: Object to the form. 12 MS. TONELLI: Withdrawn. 13 Q. Were there any sections of the I 14 Building that were 2 floors in 1947? 15 A. In the production area? 16 Q. In any area of I Building. 17 A. I say no in 47. 18 Q. At any time between 1947 and 1967 19 was there a portion of I Building which was 2 20 floors? 21 A. We built a locker room. 22 23 A. Q. Where was that locker room located? Second floor right here, this area right 24 here. 25 Q. Would you mark that area with an L. 95 Sfiscko-Cross 1 A. Locker room, L R. 2 Q. And you are indicating an area - 3 A. That was right above the the steam tanks. 4 You had steps to go up, and locker room up on top. 5 Q. Mr. Sfiscko, I believe you testified 6 that at some point fans were added to I Building? 7 A. What? 8 Q. I believe at some point you 9 testified that fans were added in I Building? 10 A. Ceiling fans. 11 Q. Yes. In what year were those added? 12 A. 13 Could have been 58, 59, 60 in that time. Q. Did they have anything to do with 14 dust collection? 15 A. Summer time has got to be 90 degrees. 16 Q. So the purpose was - 17 A. To cool the building. 18 Q. Mr. Sfiscko, you indicated that 19 there was a fiber bin on the pipe making machines. 20 Was it necessary to clean out that fiber bin? 21 MR. CARUSO: I object to the form of 22 the question. 23 MR. RASNEK: Objection to the form. 24 What timeframe. 25 Q. 1947. 96 Sfiscko-Cross 1 A. Wasn't there, the live bottom fiber bins, 2 it wasn't there in 47. 3 Q. When did the fiber bin come into 4 existence? 5 A. That came with the bulk handling 6 modernization in the forming end. 7 Q. What did you have prior to the bulk 8 handling? 9 A. That is when we used the skip hoist with 10 the cyclone. 11 Q. And when you were using the skip 12 hoist, what was the name of the place where the 13 fiber was contained? 14 A. 15 The dry mixing area. Q. In the dry mixing area was it 16 necessary to take the clean -- to clean that area 17 out at any time? 18 MR. CARUSO: I object to the form. 19 A. I would say no. 20 Q. After you went to the bulk system, 21 was it necessary to clean out the fiber bin at 22 any time? 23 A. No. The wide bottom bins, no. You see , 24 the bottom of those fiber bins, they were screws, 25 and when you wanted to get all the fiber out the 97 Sfiscko-Cross 1 screws would take all the fiber out, if you 2 wanted to change blends. That is the way we 3 changed blend. We had to empty the fiber bin out, 4 when another blend was coming in, then we would 5 put it in. 6 Q. And the screws were capable of 7 completely emptying the bin? 8 A. Well, if you had a few pounds in there, you 9 were lucky. They did a good job. 10 Q. Did there come a time when you 11 started using apoxy in the finishing end? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. Prior to the use of apoxy what was 14 used in the finishing end? 15 A. It wasn't in the finishing end. 16 MR. TORTORETI: Objection. 17 A. The molding was in the wet end, that is 18 what we called the wet patch. 19 Q. And what materials did the wet patch 20 consist of? 21 A. Just the wet patch? 22 Q. Yes. 23 A. We would use either 5, 6 or 7 grade fiber 24 plus cement. 25 Q. And from where would you get the 5, 98 Sfiscko-Cross 1 6 or 7 grade fiber? 2 A. As I said before, it came from H building, 3 requisitions from H building. 4 Q. Now, I have a few more questions, 5 but at this time I think I should break for lunch, 6 then I will defer to the United States this 7 afternoon. 8 MR. CARUSO: Are you done? 9 MS. TONELLI: I have a few more 10 questions, but I think to be fair to the other 11 parties, I will defer to the U.S., when we come 12 back from lunch. I believe at this time I've 13 asked the majority of my questions. But I would 14 like to reserve the right to come back if we have 15 time after the U.S. completes their cross 16 examination. 17 ( Whereupon, the luncheon recess is 18 taken.) 19 ( Whereupon, the deposition resumes.) 20 21 CROSS EXAMINATION BY MS. COLLINS: 22 23 Q. Mr. Sfiscko, I'm still Nancy Collins 24 and I have questions I would like to ask you. 25 MR. BROMBERG: I would like to note 99 Sfiscko-Cross 1 for the record approximately 20 minutes ago I was 2 handed a stack of documents by counsel for the 3 USA which are documents which the government 4 intends to utilize in the afternoon deposition of 5 Mr. Sfiscko. 6 It is my understanding from looking 7 at them that some documents have been stamped 8 with trade secret designation, and I've been 9 advised by counsel for the government that those 10 particular documents are covered by a protective 11 order between Johns-Manville and the government. 12 Is that correct? 13 MS. COLLINS: Let me put it this way, 14 there is a protective order governing the 15 government documents in this case. It is not 16 clear to me at this point whether in a number of 17 cases Manville asserted a privilege then withdrew 18 it. I'm not sure if privilege was withdrawn over 19 these documents or not, since I'm not sure at 20 this point, since it may fall under the -- the 21 document production falls under the protective 22 order. These documents may fall under. 23 MR. BROMBERG: Would it be fair to 24 say that many of these documents have designation 25 J M trade secrets? 100 Sfiscko-Cross 1 MS. COLLINS: Yes, they do. 2 MR. BROMBERG: But any rate, the 3 documents which we have before us today, to your 4 knowledge, may be covered by a protective order? 5 MS. COLLINS: Yes. 6 MR. BROMBERG: And certainly the 7 ones in question we're discussing are stamped J M 8 trade secrets? 9 MS. COLLINS: Yes, one group of 10 exhibits. 11 MR. BROMBERG: Under those 12 circumstances and not knowing anything more than 13 that I am in no position to consent to their 14 utilization as exhibits in this deposition. That 15 might very well be in violation of a protective 16 order as it appears to be, and since counsel for 17 the USA can't categorically state that the 18 utilization of those documents today would not be 19 in violation of the existing protective order. 20 MS. COLLINS: Once again, I would 21 just suggest for the record, that should the 22 United States not take an appeal on the judge's 23 order yesterday, some resolution of the issue of 24 trade secrets will have to be made. I would 25 assume you are not in a position to give that up 101 Sfiscko-Cross 1 either. 2 MR. BROMBERG: While counsel from 3 Manville in this litigation are not counsel for 4 Manville in the other litigation which you are 5 alluding to, we are not the proper party to 6 assert, or not assert a protective order, or 7 agree to a waiver of a protective order since we 8 did not enter into it. As such, I do not have 9 authority or authorization today to deal with the 10 protective order entered into between Manville 11 and the government. 12 MR. TORTORETI: Is the protective 13 order signed by a Unit States District Judge. 14 MS. COLLINS: I believe entered by 15 Judge Peckham (phonetic), and Judge 16 Lyden (phonetic). 17 Q. Mr. Sfiscko, I want to take you back 18 to some of the things that you talked about this 19 morning. I think the last time you clarified a 20 number of issues related to the batch books and 21 the batch cards. But I have a few questions for 22 you about specifications. You told us that you 23 would look at books of specifications in the 24 quality control area. Is that correct? 25 A. That is correct. 102 Sfiscko-Cross 1 Q. And would that be a loose leaf 2 binder containing specifications, to the best of 3 your knowledge? 4 A. There was a book. 5 Q. Would there be a product 6 specification for each particular type of product 7 that was manufactured by the pipe division? 8 A. What do you mean by product specification. 9 Q. Did -- was there a name by which 10 these specifications were known? 11 A. They were operating specifications. 12 Q. Were they ever referred to in 13 manufacturing specifications, do you know? 14 A. 15 Same thing, manufacturing. Q. Now, if we went to 30 inch diameter 16 water pipe in 1955, let us say hypothetically, 17 was there such a creature? 18 A. Yes, 36. 19 Q. 36 inch water pipe in 1955, would 20 there have been a specification for that 21 particular product in the specification book? 22 A. It would be arranged, like we would cover 23 30 to 36. Or 24 to 36, something -- or even to 24 36. There was a range. 25 Q. So within particular ranges for a 103 Sfiscko-Cross 1 particular product type it would be a 2 specification? 3 A. Within a range. 4 Q. Now, for what purpose would you 5 personally have looked at those specifications? 6 A. To, at that time, to find out what the 7 minimum maximum percent of fiber blend could be 8 used. If it is something that was out of that 9 range, I would have to apply for a deviation. 10 Q. Now, you would have looked at the 11 specification book. What would be the 12 relationship between your examination of 13 specification book and your referral to the batch 14 cards that you talked about this morning? 15 A. The specification book gave you the percent 16 of blends that you can use. 17 Q. And then you would go to blends 18 within that percent range. Would that be correct? 19 A. We operate with a blend that was active at 20 that period of time. You see, there would be 21 times where a range would be 15 to 18 percent. 22 If you could make a pipe in that range, you would 23 want to go to 20 percent, you would have to get a 24 deviation. 25 Q. Would you be requesting a deviation 104 Sfiscko-Cross 1 to the specification? 2 A. Deviation to the specification. 3 Q. And would, after -- to whom would 4 you forward the deviation to specification? 5 A. 6 Through the quality control. Q. And they would forward it -- 7 A. To headquarters. We never got turned down 8 Q. And then would you be issued a 9 document known as a deviation of specifications 10 A. I would be told to go ahead. 11 Q. Did you ever see documents known as 12 deviation from specifications? 13 A. I've seen deviations. 14 Q. Were any of those kept at the 15 Manville plant, in the period of time from 1947 16 to 1967? 17 A. You mean the heading? 18 19 A. Q. Yes. For Manville use only? 20 Q. Yes, sir. 21 A. Probably. 22 Q. Did you ever have occasion to refer 23 to such documents? 24 A. 25 If I went to the quality control, I would. Q. After you would phone in -- would 105 Sfiscko-Cross 1 you phone or write to get a deviation? 2 A. Not me, quality control. I don't know how 3 they handled it. 4 Q. Would the communication that came 5 back to them, be memorialized in a form, a typed 6 form - 7 A. Could be verbal. 8 Q. To the best of your knowledge, were 9 the deviations from specifications memorialized 10 in some kind of a form? 11 A. If there would be a follow up, a written 12 follow up, if I got a verbal answer. 13 Q. And do you know if those were kept 14 at the Manville facilities? 15 A. They are kept in the Quality Control 16 Department. 17 Q. You talked about fibers this morning, 18 and what was used on the 10 foot machine, and 19 what was used on the 13 foot machine. Do you 20 recall that? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. Now, you testified using the terms 23 blue fiber and white fiber. What did you mean by - 24 excuse me, what did you mean by white fiber? 25 A. What period of time? 106 Sfiscko-Cross 1 Q. In 1947, I'm sorry. 2 A. At that time we did not have any of our own 3 make fiber, 47. 4 Q. Was white fiber what was known as 5 chrysotile, are you familiar with the term 6 chrysotile? 7 A. It is a 4 grade fiber. 8 Q. Are you familiar with - 9 MR. LACEY: Just for the record, I 10 don't know whether that was an answer or a 11 question from the witness. 12 Q. Sir, are you familiar with the term 13 chrysotile? 14 A. Probably the - 15 Q. I want to know first, I want to know 16 if those are terms that you used in your work? 17 A. 18 No, we didn't use those terms. Q. If fiber came from Jeffrey mine, 19 later -- I understand that would be later than 20 1947, let's say in 1955, would you refer to that 21 as white fiber? 22 A. That was white. 23 Q. Are you familiar with the material 24 known as amosite fiber? 25 A. Yes, I'm familiar with that. 107 Sfiscko-Cross 1 Q. And was there a shorthand code by 2 which you referred to amosite fiber -- strike 3 that. I don't want to be confusing. 4 You referred to certain fibers as 5 blue. 6 A. Blue. 7 Q. And then another group of fibers in 8 1947 you referred to as white. And that would - 9 and the fiber supplied from Jeffrey mine would 10 fall within that category of white, correct? 11 A. 12 Right. Q. How would you have have referred to 13 amosite fiber. 14 A. 15 Amosite. Q. Now, so when you were discussing the 16 fiber supply that was used on the 10 foot machine 17 this morning and you were talking about 15 18 percent white fiber that would have been the type 19 or range the fiber that would have later been 20 supplied by Jeffrey. Is that correct? 21 A. What period of time we talking about? 22 23 A. Q. 1947. 1947, we did not have Jeffrey fiber in the 24 plant. 25 Q. I understand that. 108 Sfiscko-Cross 1 Was there a type of fiber which was 2 in the plant in 1947, which you would compare to 3 Jeffrey fiber? 4 A. There were - 5 MR. TORTORETI: Objection to the 6 form of the question. 7 A. There were other 4 grades of fiber. 8 Q. Would you have referred to Jeffrey 9 fiber as 4 grade? 10 A. 11 4 grade. Q. And would you have referred to the 12 fibers that you discussed in 1947 as 4 grade 13 fibers? 14 A. 15 4 grade. Q. And you would use the term either 16 white fiber or 4 grade fiber to refer to those 17 types of fibers? 18 A. Yes, there was some 3 grade to, outside 19 fibers too. About a year or so that deleted. 20 Q. And then after JM's own fibers came 21 in, how did you refer to those? 22 A. 4 grade. 23 Q. So they were just a type of 4 grade 24 fiber? 25 A. 4 grade,could be 4 M, 4 S, 4 T, a lot of 109 Sfiscko-Cross 1 different, 4 T 21, 4 T 28. A lot of different. 2 I don't remember them all. 3 Q. Now, during the period from 1947 and 4 1950, again I'm choosing arbitrary periods of 5 time. Would all of the fiber which was used in 6 the ordinary manufacturing on the pipe machines - 7 strike that. 8 I want a limit from your 9 consideration here, fibers that might have been 10 used in the molding, or wet coupling areas. 11 A. 12 I've heard of that. Q. Just refer to the fibers they are 13 using on the pipe machines for this period of 14 questions. In the period from 1947 to 1950 would 15 all of the fibers that were used in the 16 manufacturing process have been either 4 grade or 17 blue fibers? 18 A. Excluding J M fiber? 19 20 A. Q. Either J M or non J M? Yes -- well -- now, you are saying blue 21 and 4 grade -- we had some 3 grade. 22 Q. I'm sorry, I accept the correction, 23 I'm not trying to confuse you, I'm trying to find 24 out what the terms mean. 3 or 4 grade fibers -25 A. And blue. 110 Sfiscko-Cross 1 Q. And blue? 2 A. That is correct. 3 Q. Was there any amosite at all used in 4 the manufacturing process that you recall in the 5 period 1947 to 1950? 6 A. Amosite came into the picture with the task 7 force. 8 Q. Now, during the period of the task 9 force, sir, would the corporate headquarters 10 order certain fibers and have them supplied to 11 you for experimental runs in the I Building? 12 A. 13 I don't understand that. Say that again. Q. During the period of the task force 14 which would be the fiber supply task force you 15 talked about yesterday. 16 A. 17 Okay. Q. You talked about - 18 19 A. 20 21 MR. BROMBERG: The day before? And the day before. Q. And the day before. You required different fibers for 22 some of those runs than you would normally use. 23 Is that correct? 24 A. For different pipe machines, you mean or 25 what? 111 Sfiscko-Cross 1 Q. No, I'm sorry, again I didn't mean 2 to confuse you. During the period of the task 3 force, was that during the mid 1950's? 4 A. it started around 50 -- yes, go ahead. 5 Q. And how long did it last? 6 A. The task force? 7 Q. Yes, sir. 8 A. Two, three years, probably. You can't hold 9 me to it. 10 Q. To the best of your knowledge was 11 the task force completed by 1960? 12 A. Before that, I would say. 13 Q. So sometime during the mid to late 14 60' s -- 15 A. Well , when you say the -- but experimental 16 runs without the task force always took place. 17 MR. LACEY: I just have an objection 18 to the question because I believe he already 19 testified that he believes the task force was in 20 existence in the early 50's. 21 THE WITNESS: True. 22 Q. Sir, were there experimental runs 23 prior to the task force? 24 A. I would say no. 25 (Whereupon, document is marked NS-28 112 Sfiscko-Cross 1 for identification.) 2 Q. I'm going to show you what has been 3 marked as Exhibit NS-28 and ask you to take a 4 look at it for me, if you will. 5 MR. TORTORETI: Can you identify it 6 for us? 7 MS. COLLINS: Yes, for the record 8 identified as report C C dash 7 9 8 8 4-20-54, 9 Control Laboratory Johns-Manville, Manville 10 factory. It is a document of one page. 11 A. I haven't seen this before. 12 Q. Excuse me, sir, you have not? 13 A. No. 14 Q. Now, you yesterday discussed with us 15 members of the task force Sy Collier, Whalen and 16 Schilling. Is that correct? 17 A. 18 Yes. Q. Now, Mr. Schilling and Mr. Whalen 19 and Mr. Nowlin referred to here, are those some 20 of the individuals you talked about yesterday as 21 having been involved in the task force? 22 A. 23 That iscorrect. MR. BROMBERG: Just so the record is 24 clear, I believe counsel is referring to either 25 Wednesday or Friday the prior day. Yesterday, 113 Sfiscko-Cross 1 Mr. Henry was here. 2 MS. COLLINS: I apologize. 3 Q. Were those some of the members you 4 recognize as having been on the task force, sir? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. Now, examining what has been marked 7 as NS-28, does it refresh your recollection as to 8 any other members of that fiber task force in the 9 1950's. 10 A. Collier headed, committee was Schilling, 11 Whalen -- Nowlin was a member, to the best of my 12 knowledge. 13 Q. First of all, did it refresh your 14 recollection? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. Now, that is your recollection is 17 refreshed, can you tell us who you now recall to 18 have been members of the task force? 19 A. Collierheaded thetask force. 20 Q. And who else belonged to it? 21 A. Schilling andWhalen, I would say that 22 would be committee one and under them would 23 comprise what represented research. Nowlin 24 represented -- he was in the task force, Brosum 25 (phonetic) was quality control. I don't know he 114 Sfiscko-Cross 1 was a member of the task force. Linstrom (phonetic) 2 headed quality control for the company. I don't 3 know whether he was a member or not. 4 Q. And during the period of several 5 years that you referred to the task force as 6 existing, to the best of your knowledge, did 7 Misters Collier, Schilling and Whalen remain 8 part of that task force? 9 A. From the beginning to the end. 10 Q. Now, you also referred to a period 11 of time, sir, when Mr. Whalen was at the Manville 12 plant virtually everyday? 13 A. When we were making the experimental runs, 14 he was present, if he could make it. If not he 15 delegated one of his staff. That was his primary 16 function. 17 Q. During that period of time -- strike 18 that. 19 During the period of the 1950's, in 20 which the task force was taking place, where was 21 Mr. Whalen's usual duty station, or location for 22 the company? 23 A. His headquarters -- he worked out of -- but 24 he lived in Bound Brook, New Jersey, which is 25 adjacent to Manville. 115 Sfiscko-Cross 1 Q. Now, sir, do you recall amosite ever 2 having been used in transite pipe prior to the 3 time of the task force in the mid 50's? 4 A. I answered that before, no. 5 MS. COLLINS: Now I'm marking and 6 giving to the witness what has been marked as 7 Government Exhibit Number 29, NS-29. 8 (Whereupon, document is marked 9 NS-29 for identification.) 10 MS. COLLINS: Off the record. 11 (Whereupon, there is an 12 off-the-record discussion.) 13 MS. COLLINS: For record headed 14 research center October 27, 1955, to S. Collier 15 GHQ entitled preliminary run of K C B R 3 blue 16 fiber Manville number 2 machine, 6 inch, 150 pipe 17 task force number either I F or T F 8 6. 18 Appended to it is a report of 3 pages 19 headed task force report number again T F or I F 20 dash 8 6 October 12, 1955, preliminary runs of K 21 C B R 3, blue fiber, Manville, number 2 machine, 22 6 inch, 150 pipe. 23 Q. Mr. Sfiscko, do you recall having 24 seen NS-29 before your testimony here today? 25 A. I haven't seen this report. 116 Sfiscko-Cross 1 I probably made the run. 2 Q. Have you seen -- when you say you 3 made the run, you are talking about the run which 4 would be described inNS-29? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. Sir, did you, during the period of 7 the task force see reports made out by the task 8 force on runs done within the Johns-Manville 9 plant? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. And does the document which we have 12 before you as N S number 29 appear to be the type 13 of document that you would have seen as a report 14 from the task force during that period? 15 A. Only thing Iwould know was the run 16 successful. As far as the reports were concerned, 17 I don't remember going through them. 18 Q. Okay. Now, not asking you the 19 content, but I'm asking you if you examine it 20 today, is it the type of report -- is it in the 21 format and layout that the reports have been 22 received during this period of time? 23 MR. BROMBERG: I just note an 24 objection in so far as the witness is not copied 25 on this report. I don't believe he's indicated 117 Sfiscko-Cross 1 that he regularly received this type of report. 2 MR. LACEY: I join in the objection. 3 A. The information inthese reports were 4 probably -- they came out of the runs. But as 5 far as this report is concerned, I don't know. 6 Q. To the best of your knowledge were 7 the runs during the task force done primarily at 8 the Manville plant? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. Were all of them done at the 11 Manville plant, to the best of your knowledge? 12 A. 13 Probably. Q. NOw, when the task force desired to 14 have an experimental run done within a different 15 fiber than had previously been on the blend cards 16 how would that material have been supplied to you, 17 sir, the asbestos itself? 18 A. How do you mean supplied, bytruck, by 19 freight? 20 Q. Would general headquarters have sent 21 it on to you if some other -- or some other 22 portion of the Manville corporation? 23 A. From another location? 24 MR. BROMBERG: I object to the form. 25 I think the witness doesn't understand. 118 Sfiscko-Cross 1 Q. I'm not trying to ask the point of 2 origin of the fiber. But would you have had to 3 order it yourself at the Manville plant? 4 A. No. 5 Q. Who would have taken care of that? 6 A. The task force, if they wanted to use this 7 fiber, they would work through the purchasing 8 division and purchasing. 9 Q. How much fiber would be necessary to 10 do a single run in the Manville plant, during 11 this 1955 period? 12 A. That would be -- that would depend on the 13 hours that we're going to make this run. Is it a 14 4 hour run, 8 hour run, 24 hour run. 15 Q. What was the minimum run done during 16 this period of time? 17 A. 18 Four hours. Q. Now, I'm just asking you for the 19 lowest limit, what would be the smallest amount 20 of fiber which would have been supplied to you by 21 headquarters to make a 4 hour run? 22 MR. TORTORETI: Objection to the 23 form. 24 MR. BROMBERG: I also note an 25 objection. There may be variations depending on 119 Sfiscko-Cross 1 the pipe machine and other factors. So I think 2 it is all speculative on the witness's part. If 3 you can answer, do so. 4 A. If it was foreign fiber, it came in -- had 5 to be over a truckload. 6 Q. To the best of your recollection, 7 the minimum amount of fiber that would have been 8 supplied from one of these experimental runs 9 would have been in truckloads. Is that correct? 10 A. 11 Over a truckload. Q. Referring your attention to NS-28, 12 sir, document refers to control laboratory 13 Johns-Manville factory. What was the control 14 laboratory at Johns-Manville factory in 1954? 15 A. The control laboratory was the central 16 control. That covered the whole plant. 17 Q. Would that have been a quality 18 control laboratory? 19 A. Quality control. 20 Q. As opposed to the - 21 A. Plant. 22 Q. And it would also be as opposed to 23 research and development facility at that time? 24 A. Research was different. 25 Q. Okay. 120 Sfiscko-Cross 1 Were the initials R and D, or R D usually 2 used at Manville to refer to research and 3 development? 4 A. Research anddevelopment. 5 Q. And were the initials QC usually 6 used to refer toquality control? 7 A. Right. 8 Q. And this would have been a quality 9 control laboratory which is referred to in 10 Exhibit NS-28. Is that correct? 11 A. Yes, I see Ralph Jacobs (phonetic) name 12 there. 13 Q. And Ralph Jacobs would have been one 14 of the individuals in quality control? 15 A. Right, he was assistant to Ed Linstrom. 16 Q. Now, document NS-29, sir, refers to 17 the research center. What does that designation 18 mean? 19 A. Dan Nowlin who wrote this report was part 20 of the task force, but he did the work for 21 research. His salary came from the research 22 department. 23 Q. And would that research department 24 having -- where would it have been located in 25 1955? 121 Sfiscko-Cross 1 A. In Finderne, probably. Finderne, yes. 2 Q. Finderne, New Jersey? 3 A. Yes, across the river. 4 Q. Was there a quality control 5 laboratory actually in the I Building itself? 6 A. What? 7 Q. Was there a quality control 8 laboratory in the I Building itself? 9 A. We had a small quality control, where we 10 did some testing materials. 11 Q. Did that quality control laboratory 12 ever do fiber tests, the one in the I Building, 13 to the best of your knowledge? 14 A. Eventually. 15 Q. And when did that begin? 16 A. Oh, you got me, eventually. Mostly with 17 our own fibers. 18 Q. Would that have taken place during 19 the 1960's, if you know? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. And would it have taken place prior 22 to the 1960's that fibers would have been tested 23 in the I Building? 24 A. Yes, because we had buoyancy tests at the 25 time, yes. 122 Sfiscko-Cross 1 Q. What was the purpose of testing 2 fiber in that laboratory in the I Building? 3 A. Quality. 4 Q. Would -- strike that. 5 Would the quality tests have been 6 done prior to making purchases, or tests before 7 purchases were made? 8 A. No. 9 Q. For whatpurposes wouldthey have 10 been done? 11 A. For performance of manufacturing. 12 Q. If Manville were considering 13 purchasing a new fiber at some point, a different 14 fiber than they purchased before, would there be 15 any particular laboratory at Manville where that 16 material would have been sent for testing? 17 A. It is beyond me. 18 Q. But in the period of priorto 1967, 19 you are not familiar with any test batches of 20 fiber having been sent to the Manville plant for 21 testing in the quality control laboratory, prior 22 to purchase? 23 A. I'm not sure, but I believe what you are 24 saying, is fiber would go to research, first. 25 But I'm not too sure of that either. 123 Sfiscko-Cross 1 Q. Who would know the answer to that 2 question, if you know? 3 A. Mr. Whalen, or Mr. Nowlin. 4 Q. At some periods during the task 5 force, was amosite testified as one of the fibers 6 to be used in transite pipe? 7 A. That I'm not sure of. 8 Q. At any time after the task force was 9 over, did amosite become a fiber that was used in 10 any of the products in the I Building? 11 A. Amosite was used. 12 Q. When would that have begun, sir? 13 A. It is pretty hard to say, because these 14 fibers, as they came in, they could have been 15 consumed in 2, 3 month period. It is pretty hard 16 for me to pinpoint it down. And period of 47 to 17 67. 18 Q. Was there ever a period of time 19 between 1947 and 1967 thatyou recall where 20 amosite was used in allbatches of -- in the 21 transite pipe building? 22 MR. BROMBERG: I just note an 23 objection. Do you mean all batches, do you mean 24 every run of pipe that was made for a given 25 period of time pertained to amosite? 124 Sfiscko-Cross 1 MS. COLLINS: Yes. 2 A. No. 3 Q. Was amosite one of the materials 4 which might have been used on any particular 5 blend card that you had in this period from 1947 6 to 1967? 7 MR. BROMBERG: Objection to the form. 8 MR. TORTORETI: Objection to the 9 form of the question. 10 Q. Was amosite ever used instead of any 11 other fiber in transite pipe? 12 A. For substitution ofother fiber? 13 14 A. Q. Yes, sir. What period of time you talking about, 70's? 15 Q. The 1960's, let's say. 16 A. 17 I don't remember, to tell me you the truth. Q. Do you recall if it was used in the 18 1970's? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. And was it used considering that 21 period as a substitute for - 22 A. The amosite we got from the government 23 supply. 24 Q. Prior to the time that that fiber 25 was used, in transite pipe had amosite fiber been 125 Sfiscko-Cross 1 used before that? 2 A. Now, it depends. If you are comparing with 3 normal fibers, I get blue, and 4 grade fibers, 4 amosite would be the least fiber to be used at 5 that period of time. 6 Q. To the best of your knowledge, sir, 7 what was the highest percentage of amosite used 8 in transite pipe? 9 MR. BROMBERG: Objection to the form. 10 I'm not sure I understand what you mean by 11 highest percentage. Could you just clarify that 12 please? 13 MR. TORTORETI: Also a timeframe. 14 he has testified to use in the 1970's. 15 Q. In the 1970's you refer to the fact 16 that amosite fiber was sometimes used in the pipe. 17 Is that correct? 18 A. 19 Yes. Q. During that period of time in the 20 1970's, when you are making pressure pipe, what 21 was the percentage of asbestos fiber in the 22 pressure pipe? 23 A. Amosite? 24 Q. No, of all fiber taken together. 25 MR. RASNEK: Objection to the form. 126 Sfiscko-Cross 1 Are you referring now to the 1970's? 2 MS. COLLINS: Yes. 3 A. I wasn't at the plant. 4 Q. Do you know what the percentage was 5 in the 1970's? 6 A. The range? 7 Q. Yes. 8 A. I guess that could have been between 15 and 9 20 percent. 10 Q. And within that range of 15 to 20 11 percent, do you know what the highest percentage - 12 strike that. 13 Now, I'm referring to that fiber 14 itself which is going to be used in the blend, do 15 you know what's the highest percentage of amosite 16 that was ever used in those blends? 17 MR. BROMBERG: I just note an 18 objection to the question, because the witness 19 has indicated that it was outside of his 20 timeframe in I Building, and I believe he was 21 speculating at counsel's request that amosite was 22 used. And what the approximate percentages were. 23 I think it is a little unfair to ask him to be 24 specific. I would note for the record that I 25 believe counsel is asking the witness to 127 Sfiscko-Cross 1 speculate. 2 MR. LACEY: I join in the objection 3 THE WITNESS: You had the right man 4 here yesterday. 5 Q. So the person with the most 6 knowledge to answer that question would be Mr. 7 Henry? 8 A. Yes, I can tell you. But he was on the 9 spot. 10 Q. Do you have a recollection prior to 11 the time you left in 1967 as to whether or not 12 amosite was an ingredient in transite pipe? 13 A. As I said before, on a smaller basis in 14 comparison with blue and 4 grade of fiber. 15 Q. Again looking at pressure pipe in 16 the 1960's. 17 MR. LACEY: May I have that answer 18 read back, please. 19 (Whereupon, the reporter reads back.) 20 Q. During the 1960's, would the 21 percentage of asbestos in water pipe have been 22 approximately 15 to 20 percent of the product? 23 A. I said that. 24 Q. Now, during that same period of time 25 while you were still at the plant what was the 128 Sfiscko-Cross 1 highest percentage of amosite you remember being 2 part of that blend? 3 A. In pressure pipe? 4 Q. Yes. 5 A. Zero. 6 Q. So to the best of your recollection 7 considering the 1960's no amosite fiber was used 8 in water pipe - 9 A. Pressure pipe,sewer pipe. 10 Q. In sewer pipe what was the highest 11 percentage of fiber that was amosite in the 12 1960's? 13 A. Could be around 10percent. 14 Q. In the period from 1947 to 1967 did 15 the percentage of blue to white fiber remain 16 pretty much the same for water pipe? 17 A. 18 Blue came down. Q. Would that have happened during the 19 task force? 20 A. 21 It satrted there. MR. MC CARTHY: What was the 22 timeframe again? 23 THE WITNESS: 47 to 67. 24 Q. You testified this morning about the 25 percentage of blue and white fiber on the 10 foot 129 Sfiscko-Cross 1 machine in 1947. By 1955 what was the percentage 2 of blue and white fiber in the 10 foot machine? 3 A. 10 foot machine? 4 Q. Yes, sir. 5 MR. LACEY: Objection as to form. 6 When you say by 1955, are you asking him in the 7 year 1955 what was the exact percentage? 8 Q. Sir, in the year 1955, approximately 9 what was the percentage of blue and white fiber 10 in the -- on the 10 inch machine. 11 MR. TORTORETI: I object to the form. 12 MR. BROMBERG: Objection. 13 MR. LACEY: His testimony has been 14 he doesn't have a good memory for dates , he 15 doesn't recall specific years. I think he would 16 be speculating as to that information. 17 THE WITNESS: That is what I said. 18 Q. You said that the percentages 19 changed over the period of time? 20 A. 21 Right. Q. I'm asking you for the best 22 recollection of percentage of blue and white used 23 on the 10 inch machine in the 1950's? 24 A. There again, when you say 10 foot machine, 25 so many items made on that 10 foot machine, if 130 Sfiscko-Cross 1 you are talking about water pipe, 6 inch, 10 foot, 2 it could have been 20 percent blue. 3 Q. Would that make it 80 percent white? 4 A. That is correct. 5 Q. When you are making water pipe on 6 the 13 inch machine in the 1950's, do you know 7 what the percentage of blue and white would have 8 been? 9 MR. BROMBERG: Just 13 foot machine? 10 Q. 13 foot machine. 11 A. There again, if you are talking about 12 number 2 machine, 13 foot machine water pipe, we 13 used less blue than we used on the 13 foot 14 machine on larger diameter. 15 Q. Take number 2 first, and you are 16 making high pressure water pipe? 17 A. Could have been 20 percent, or it could 18 vary too, sometimes you had a bad run, you might 19 want to go to 25 percent. But it had a range of 20 20 to 25. 21 Q. The remaining 75 or 80 percent was 22 white? 23 A. That is right. 24 Q. On the number 3 machine? 25 A. It would probably go about 5 percent higher. 131 Sfiscko-Cross 1 Q. Which would make it 25 to 30 percent 2 blue? 3 MR. BROMBERG: I don't want to 4 interrupt. I just think in terms of the record, 5 when you are asking him questions about that, you 6 are referring to the percentage of the mix which 7 was fiber. And then you are breaking that down 8 into separate percentages. Am I correct? 9 MS. COLLINS: Yes, we treating the 10 fiber as 100 percent, and breaking down in the 11 blend list. 12 MR. LACEY: This is also to the 13 exclusion of the fibers in the wet patch molding? 14 MS. COLLINS: Yes. 15 Q. In the early 1960's, sir, on the 10 16 foot machine, when you were making water pipe, 17 which was the example you used last time, what 18 percentage of blue -- what was the ratio of blue 19 to white fiber? 20 21 A. MR. BROMBERG: If you know. Pretty hard for me to, because at different 22 times, we had different blends, could have been 23 50 percent, could have been 20. There is other 24 materials involved too in making pipe. There was 25 nothing flat. 132 Sfiscko-Cross 1 Q. Would you say, sir, on the 10 foot 2 machine in the early 1960's, when water pipe was 3 being made it would be in a range within 15 to 20 4 percent blue fiber? 5 A. Could have been. 6 Q. And again the remainder could have 7 been white? 8 A. That is true. 9 Q. And on the 13 foot machine at the 10 same period of time on the number 2 machine? 11 MR. BROMBERG: Is there a question 12 pending? 13 Q. Yes. What could the percentage of 14 blue fiber have been? 15 A. That wouldn't have changed. 16 Q. Would your answer be the same as to 17 the number 3 machine? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. When you left in 1967 would it have 20 been approximately the same percentage as on the - 21 A. 22 Pretty close. Q. That would be true for both 10 foot 23 and 13 foot machine? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. Sir, are you familiar with the term 133 Sfiscko-Cross 1 mandrel area as an area used to describe areas in 2 which some of your workers were working? 3 A. Mandrel storage, and/or mandrel area in 4 front of the pipe machine? 5 Q. Would the valve operator, knifer, 6 curer, gauger and floor man all have worked in 7 that area, to the best of your knowledge? 8 A. Sure, all depends on what you call -- yes, 9 all in that surroundings. 10 Q. Would the crane operator also have 11 been? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. I'm going to show you what has been 14 marked as exhibit N S -- 15 MR. BROMBERG: What is about to be 16 marked. 17 MS. COLLINS: What is about to be 18 marked as exhibit NS-30. 19 (Whereupon, document is marked for 20 identification.) 21 Q. Mr. Sfiscko, have you seen exhibit 22 NS-30 prior to your testimony here today? 23 A. No. 24 Q. Was the designation T P used to 25 describe transite pipe? 134 Sfiscko-Cross 1 A. Correct. 2 Q. Now, I would ask you to refer to - 3 MR. LACEY: I have an objection to 4 the reference to the document, because I think 5 the witness has answered based on speculation. 6 He says he's never seen this document, although 7 it may appear obvious, or we think it is obvious 8 that it refers to transite pipe. It would be 9 speculation because he didn't draft it, and has 10 never seen it before. 11 MR. RASNEK: I would also like a 12 description for the record what it purports to be. 13 MS. COLLINS: Document is a one page 14 taped together document, oversized, headed at the 15 top transite pipe, I with circle around it 16 Manville T slash P plant, number 4, revised 17 7-28-69. And it is a -- I would describe it as a 18 chart, broken down into various years. 19 MR. BROMBERG: May I ask where this 20 particular document came from? 21 MS. COLLINS: Produced by 22 Johns-Manville in the Denver production. 23 MR. BROMBERG: Which litigation? 24 MS. COLLINS: Under the coordinated 25 claim court discovery and Robinson order. 135 Sfiscko-Cross 1 MR. BROMBERG: That was produced in 2 Denver? 3 MS. COLLINS: Yes. 4 Q. Are you familiar with the term T P 5 having been used to describe anything else, 6 anything other than Transite Pipe Plant? 7 A. Here it is transite pipe, here it says T P, 8 draw your own conclusion. 9 Q. I'm asking you now to the left side 10 of the exhibit, do the terms used there describe 11 individuals who -- job titles of individuals who 12 worked in the Transite Pipe Plant between 1947 13 and 1967, to the best of your knowledge? 14 A. Willow operator, machine tender, mixer 15 operator, scraper, sleeper. I don't understand 16 that job. 17 Q. You've already described the 18 individuals in the Manville area in the finishing 19 end. You read the names off to us. Were those 20 correct designations of the people working the 21 wet end? 22 MR. LACEY: I believe his testimony 23 was that he never recognized the term sweeper. 24 THE WITNESS: In that period of time 25 we had power sweepers in the 60's. Now, this 136 Sfiscko-Cross 1 goes back to 1939. 2 Q. In the finishing end where there is 3 a lathe operator, saw operator, and sweeper to 4 the best of your knowledge, between 1939 and 1967 - 5 A. Lathe operator, saw operator, there again, 6 in the 60's we had a power sweeper. 7 Q. But that term sweeper is not 8 familiar to you in the general time period, from 9 1947 to 1967. Is thatcorrect? 10 A. That says 1939. 11 Q. I just meant from your knowledge. 12 A. 13 Okay. MR. TORTORETI: May I interject a 14 question to you. You made a reference to 15 oversized. Have you blown this up, or is this 16 the size it was? 17 MS. COLLINS: No, this is the size 18 it was. We tried to reconstruct it by tape pink 19 it together. 20 Q. Sir, there is a section here 21 referring to truck drivers. Were there forming, 22 finishing and truck drivers in the plant? 23 A. There was forming and finishing work for 24 maintenance. 25 Q. And in the warehouse section were 137 Sfiscko-Cross 1 there shipping truck drivers, to the best of your 2 knowledge? 3 A. They were there. 4 Q. Were there also individuals between 5 1947 and 1967 referred to as unloaders, and 6 molders? 7 A. Front loaders were receiving people. 8 Q. And they wouldn't have been under 9 your jurisdiction? 10 A. That is correct. 11 Q. And were there individuals known as 12 molders? 13 A. Molders were under my jurisdiction. 14 Q. Sir, there is a legend in the upper 15 right-hand corner referring to -- 16 A. Code 17 Q. Code. Was silica ever referred to 18 as quartz in the Manville Transite Pipe Plant' 19 A. Sand and silica -- 20 Q. Okay. 21 Were you ever familiar with -- 22 MR. BROMBERG: Just one second, 23 counselor , I don't think the witness fully 24 answered the question that you asked. If I 25 understand the question it was: Was silica known 138 Sfiscko-Cross 1 as quartz in the pipe plant. 2 MS. COLLINS: Yes. 3 MR. BROMBERG: What is your response? 4 THE WITNESS: No. 5 Q. Have you ever heard silica referred 6 to as quartz? 7 A. No. 8 Q. Was there approximately 35 percent 9 silica in transite pipe in the period from 1947 10 to 1967? 11 A. You said 35 percent? 12 Q. Yes. 13 MR. LACEY: I'm going to object as 14 to form. 15 THE WITNESS: No. 16 Q. What percentage of transite pipe 17 batch mixing was silica in that period? 18 MR. BROMBERG: I just note an 19 objection, because it is a twenty year period and 20 it may have varied. If the witness can answer. 21 A. The ratio is pretty well the same. You 22 have to understand it did vary. Pressure pipe 23 was lower, non-critical pipe could have been 24 maybe 5 percent higher. But the actual percent, 25 you couldn't, no. 139 Sfiscko-Cross 1 Q. Is there a range that they fell into? 2 A. Silica 25 to 35. 3 Q. In referring to NS-30, sir, are you 4 able to identify who drafted it in any way at all? 5 A. No. 6 Q. Thank you, sir. 7 I want to ask you a few questions to 8 clear up areas we talked about the other day and 9 go on to new areas. 10 First of all, when you came to the 11 plant in 1947 I want to ask you if you are 12 familiar with certain individuals in which you 13 could just identify for me what their job 14 positions were in 1947, if you know. 15 Was Mr. F -- and I'm just assuming 16 after 3 days of testimony that these are all 17 misters, was F. Ryan, a person associated with 18 transite pipe operation in 19 - 19 A. Frank Ryan? 20 Q. I only know from - 21 A. I knew Frank Ryan, industrial relations. 22 He headed up industrial relations - 23 Q. Did you know an A. Cromell, C R O M 24 W E L L? 25 A. He was the division production manager. 140 Sfiscko-Cross 1 Q. Did you know either N F or M F, I 2 think N A Y L O R? 3 A. Industrial relation manager. 4 Q. Did you know C C W, Hite, H I T E? 5 A. Industrial relation manager atManville, 6 then he went to general headquarters, came in 7 senior office. 8 Q. Were Mr. Ryan and Mr. Cromwell at 9 the Manville plant? 10 A. Mr. Ryan was at the Manville plant. 11 Q. Mr. B. F. Stanton, would that have 12 been Ben Stanton? 13 A. 14 Yes. Q. What was his job in 1947? 15 A. He would be safety engineer, whatever the 16 job title he had. 17 Q. And were you familiar with the job 18 Mr. A.R. Fisher had at that time? 19 A. A.R. Fisher -- chairman of the board. I 20 don't know, president, chairman of the board. 21 Q. Did you ever meet him back then? 22 A. I knew him. 23 Q. Yesterday, when you looked at 24 Waukegan history documents, do you recall that, 25 several days ago when you looked at the Waukegan 141 Sfiscko-Cross 1 history, do you recall that, sir? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. Do you recall ever having seen such 4 a history of the Manville plant? 5 A. An organization chart like that? 6 Q. Or a document describing how the 7 Manville plant is set up, and its history? 8 A. Let's see what you got. 9 Q. I don't have one, that is why I'm 10 asking you. 11 A. I can't answer it. 12 13 A. Q. This time I have no surprise for you. We had organization chart, if that is what 14 you are referring to. 15 Q. I'm now going to hand you what has 16 been marked as Exhibits NS-31, and NS-32, and ask 17 you to look at them for a second, and tell me if 18 you can recognize them. 19 ( Whereupon, documents are marked 20 for identification.) 21 A. Yes, I'm familiar with it. 22 Q. And you are referring to NS-31, sir. 23 Is that correct? 24 MR. BROMBERG: Just one minute, the 25 witness has only looked at the first page. 142 Sfiscko-Cross 1 Counsel, can I just ask where this 2 document, which you are calling NS-31 came from? 3 MS. COLLINS: I know it was made 4 pursuant to the production in this case in claims 5 court in Robinson. 6 MR. BROMBERG: In this case? 7 MS. COLLINS: Claims court in 8 Robinson. 9 MR. BROMBERG: Not Bialy? 10 MS. COLLINS: I believe both charts 11 came from the Pierce Warehouse. 12 MR. BROMBERG: The witness has had 13 an opportunity to look at a group of documents 14 marked NS-31 for identification. 15 Q. Sir, can you identify for the record 16 what exhibit NS-31 is? 17 A. 18 It is an organization chart. Q. And it again, for clarification of 19 the record, is headed Manville Pipe Plant, August 20 28, 1962, and it states Distribution of Manville 21 Organizational Charts. 22 Sir, do you recall having received 23 exhibit NS-31, before your testimony here today 24 at some point in the 1960's? 25 A. I don't understand. 143 Sfiscko-Cross 1 Q. Okay. During the 1960's, did you 2 receive this organizational chart? 3 A. I had a copy of my own. 4 Q. Okay. For what purpose were the 5 organizational charts put out, sir? 6 A. Your guess is as good as mine. 7 Q. Did you have access to 8 organizational charts during that period of time? 9 A. I had a copy. 10 Q. And would a copy of the 11 organizational charts have been maintained in the 12 files of John Manville during the time you were 13 there? 14 A. 15 Plant manager's office. Q. To the best of your knowledge, did 16 the organizational charts that were -- first of 17 all, who published them at Manville, do you know, 18 put them together? 19 A. 20 21 You've got me. Position - Q. Excuse me, sir - MR. BROMBERG: I just note the 22 witness was asking a question, and not answering. 23 MS. COLLINS: Okay. 24 Q. It probably would have been in the 25 plant manager's office if they were issued? 144 Sfiscko-Cross 1 A. He probably issued them. 2 Q. And to the best of your knowledge 3 were they accurate at the time theywere issued 4 as to the various -- first of all, as to the 5 people in various positions? 6 A. They should be. 7 Q. And did they, to the best of your 8 knowledge, accurately set out the structure and 9 supervisory responsibilities of individuals at 10 the pipe plant during that period of time? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. Sir, I would ask you to refer your 13 attention to, and I'm not sure that there are 14 numbered pages -- the. 15 Q. The chart headed superintendent, N. 16 Sfiscko, do you see that? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. That would have been your position 19 in 1962. Is that correct? 20 A. That. is right. 21 Q. And down below that, either 22 manufacturing -- would that have indicated that 23 Mr. Bill W. Avon was the manufacturing 24 superintendent? 25 A. He was the forming foreman, or general 145 Sfiscko-Cross 1 foreman, whatever you want to call it. 2 Q. In reviewing Exhibit NS-31, does it 3 refresh your recollection as to the job that Mr. 4 Theodore Bialy held in 1961? 5 A. I see it down here as machine foreman, 10 6 foot machine foreman. 7 Q. To the best of your knowledge how 8 many years did he occupy that position as number 9 10 machine foreman? 10 A. I don't know. 11 Q. Sir, now, you've talked several 12 times with us about Mr. LaBadie, Bill Labadie. 13 A. 14 Yes. Q. Where, during what, or in what 15 section of this chart would Mr. LaBadie's work 16 have been covered? 17 A. I think he left I Building in 56, 57, 18 somewhere around that area. You can't hold me to 19 it. 20 Q. Prior to that time? 21 A. 22 Jim Halloren came in after him. Q. Prior to that time would he have 23 been in the maintenance chain of command? 24 A. Division headquarters. 25 Q. And when he was at the Manville 146 Sfiscko-Cross 1 plant what was his title? 2 A. He had maintenance, supervisor, maintenance 3 superintendent, plant engineer. 4 Q. Sir, I refer your attention what has 5 been marked as Exhibit NS-32. 6 MR. BROMBERG: Counsel, can I ask 7 where and how you came to be in possession of 8 this particular document? 9 MS. COLLINS: Yes, again, this was a 10 document that was produced in the coordinated 11 claims court Robinson discovery, and it was, I 12 believe, located at the Pierce Warehouse, I think 13 I put it on the record before. 14 A. I think they are issued every year. 15 MR. TORTORETI: What year is that? 16 MR. BROMBERG: December 12, 1963. 17 MS. COLLINS: First page that we 18 have in our chart is labeled Manville Pipe Plant 19 chart number 2, and it is dated December 12, 1963. 20 But above it is a date struck out which is August 21 and appears to be 28, 1962. 22 Sir, do you recognize Government 23 Exhibit 32? 24 A. 25 Same as 31. Q. And again your answers would be the 147 Sfiscko-Cross 1 same as to the purposes of the organizational 2 chart and its use? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. Now, this particular copy has strike 5 outs and mark overs. What would that have 6 indicated, sir? 7 A. Changes made. 8 Q. Now, referring your attention again 9 to the pages on superintendent there, strike outs, 10 it says names on this side, okay, over for run 11 down of chart. Do you see that in Exhibit NS-32? 12 A. Okay. I see it. 13 Q. On the next page, following that, 14 can you tell me what the 2 shift foreman's jobs 15 were in this year under Mr. Avon -- again appear 16 to be 2 shift foreman. 17 MR. BROMBERG: You are asking what 18 were the responsibilities of the shift foreman in 19 1963? 20 MS. COLLINS: What were the titles 21 of the 2 jobs. 22 MR. BROMBERG: Titles other than 23 shift foreman? 24 MS. COLLINS: Yes. Were they still 25 10 foot and 13 foot shift foreman? 148 Sfiscko-Cross 1 A. It says here shift foreman 13 feet and I 2 don't know what the other one says. 3 Q. Neither do I. Was there any change 4 as far as you know in 1962? 5 A. I don't understand the chart at all, just 6 correspond with the chart in the front. 7 Q. Do you know if in 1963 the foreman's 8 job in the manufacturing section would still have 9 been one 13 foot machine foreman and one ten foot 10 machine foreman? 11 A. Could have been. 12 MS. COLLINS: Could we take break 13 for about 5 minutes? 14 MR. BROMBERG: Sure. 15 (Whereupon, a recess is taken.) 16 (Whereupon, the resumes.) 17 Q. Mr. Sfiscko, a few more questions to 18 conclude that series, then we'll go on. 19 Did you know William C. STRIEB 20 E N, mid 1960's in Manville? 21 A. I believe he's out ofresearch. 22 Q. And that would be the research and 23 development section you talked about before. Is 24 that correct? 25 A. Yes. 149 Sfiscko-Cross 1 Q. And was he ever directly associated 2 with the I building in any way that you know? 3 A. No. 4 Q. Did you know a P. C. Skierski S K I 5 E R S K I? 6 A. No. 7 Q. Now, you talked about the fact that 8 experimental runs might have been made in the 9 1960's after the fiber task force went forward. 10 Do you recall that? 11 A. Go ahead. 12 Q. In the -- and you -- you also 13 testified earlier about how much fiber would have 14 had to be supplied to the plant, a truckload, or 15 so to do an experimental run in the 1950's. Do 16 you recall that? 17 A. 18 Yes, I recall that. Q. Would there be the same minimum of 19 minimum quantity of fiber required to do an 20 experimental run at the pipe plant in the mid 21 1960's? 22 A. 23 I would say so. Q. Sir, you testified yesterday that 24 you met Dominick Bertoglia once? 25 A. One time he was on vacation. 150 Sfiscko-Cross 1 Q. You also mentioned that you knew him 2 to have been a butcher? 3 A. He was a butcher before I came to 4 Johns-Manville. 5 Q. As a butcher, do you mean a person 6 - 7 A. Butcher shop. 8 Q. In the process of cutting meet? 9 A. 10 Right. Q. How did you learn that, sir? 11 A. He told us, he told me, conversation. 12 Q. And that was in the one time that 13 you met him? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. And do you know -- did he tell you 16 where he was a butcher? 17 A. No, it was probably out in Waukegan, but I 18 don't know. 19 Q. Did he tell you how long he was a 20 butcher? 21 A. I don't know that either. 22 MR. BROMBERG: I will just note a 23 objection as to his work history. I think 24 reasons are obvious to all counsel. I will not 25 direct the witness not to answer. 151 Sfiscko-Cross 1 Q. When you spoke to Mr. Bertoglia did 2 he tell you his country of origin -- did he tell 3 you whether or not he was born in the United 4 States? 5 A. I don't know that. 6 Q. Did Mr. Bertoglia speak with an 7 Italian accent, to the best of your recollection? 8 A. It would be hard to say. 9 Q. Do you recall whether he spoke with 10 any accent at all? 11 A. That is pretty hard to say at all. I only 12 talked to him about 10, 15 minutes. 13 Q. Sir, I'm going to show you now what 14 was a portion of Government Exhibit Number 14 15 yesterday. We've marked it Exhibit 14 A, and I 16 would ask you to take a look at it, if you would, 17 please, sir, NS-14 A. 18 MR. BROMBERG: Is the question you 19 would just like the witness to look at the 20 document? 21 MS. COLLINS: Yes. 22 Q. For the record, NS-14 A, which is 23 framed -- or pages F 0 0 6 8 0 of the production 24 which was presently made at Manville, I have no 25 idea when else that production was made, is 152 Sfiscko-Cross 1 labeled Industrial Hygiene Survey I Building, 2 Manville, New Jersey. The date is unclear to me, 3 and it also says sheet 1, and then sheet 2. 4 MR. BROMBERG: This was produced out 5 of Pierce? 6 MS. COLLINS: No, sir, these numbers 7 are the numbers that appeared on the Xeroxed 8 copies which we received after this production. 9 10 from? MR. BROMBERG: Where did this come 11 MS. COLLINS: This current -- 12 MR. BROMBERG: I know there is 13 another. 14 MS. COLLINS: This current 15 production. 16 Q. Sir , do you recognize this to be a 17 diagram of the warehouse in the wet end of I 18 Building? 19 A. After taking a careful look at it, I would 20 say this is the wet end, and warehouse end. 21 Q. And the warehouse would be to the 22 left of the drawing and wet end would be to the 23 right? 24 A. Wet end on north side. 25 Q. In 1952 could you simply locate for 153 Sfiscko-Cross 1 us what you would have considered to be the 2 location of the front end, and the back end first 3 of the number 1 pipe machine, to the best of your 4 knowledge? 5 A. Number 1 pipe machine was on the west wall. 6 Q. And could you take up a blue pen, 7 sir, and put the front end of where you would 8 consider the pipe machine to have been? 9 A. This is not a good -- I guess these are 1, 10 2, 3, these are bays, it would be here -- would 11 be number 1 bay. Number 1, number 1 bay. These 12 are bays. These are columns. 13 Q. And those would have been structural 14 columns within the I Building? 15 A. Right. 16 Q. And where would the front end of the 17 number 1 pipe machine have been located, sir? 18 A. Where the finished pipe came out, right? 19 Q. Yes, sir. 20 A. Right here, it would be in the front, right 21 in this area right here. 22 Q. Are you indicating the areas between 23 numbers 5 and 6 on - 24 A. Well, I'm not going to go by columns, now, 25 I don't remember them. It is in this area, that 154 Sfiscko-Cross 1 is all. 2 Q. Could you generally mark front end 3 there. 4 And that would be the end where the 5 finished pipe came out. Is that correct? 6 A. Came out here somewhere. 7 Q. And the back end of the number 1 8 pipe machine, sir? 9 A. Would be here. 10 11 A. Q. Would it be - You see here is the firewall of the 12 warehouse right here, it would be here. 13 Q. And can you write - 14 A. Back end. 15 Q. Back end there, sir. 16 And could you locate for me in the 17 same way both by front end and back end the 18 number 2 pipe machine at that time? 19 A. 20 They are all the same. Q. And they would have been in series 21 from the bottom of the drawing to the top? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. Can you write number 2 in the 24 relative position where number 2 machine would 25 have been? 155 Sfiscko-Cross 1 A. Number 2. 2 Q. And would the general work area in 3 the period from 1947 to 1967 for the crew working 4 on the 1, 2 and 3 pipe machines, can you indicate 5 for us where that would have been, sir? 6 A. Well, the machine would be here, and 7 fellows handling pipes loading them on trays 8 would be here, so the whole area. 9 Q. So between about the numbers 1 and 10 the number 8 or 9? 11 A. 12 I can't go by the columns. Q. Can you give me a general - 13 A. Don't hold me to it, because I can't go by 14 the columns. 15 Q. I wasn't trying to make it too 16 specific. In this case we're trying to indicate 17 for the record where you are pointing and it is 18 difficult in a written transcript. Can you make 19 a dotted line where you - 20 A. I don't know how far this goes -- there is 21 the steam tank here. This is the end of the wet 22 end here. 23 Q. Indicating the right side of exhibit 24 NS-14 A? 25 A. I couldn't do any more with this chart like 156 Sfiscko-Cross 1 this. 2 Q. So there were - 3 A. It is not clear enough. Because the steam - 4 this is elongated for some reason or another. 5 Q. So you are not able because the 6 proportions of the drawing to locate exactly - 7 A. This is way out of perspective. 8 Q. Brother they would have been 9 somewhere between the firewall and the area prior 10 to the curing tanks? 11 A. Here is the curing tanks here, this is way 12 out of line here. 13 MR. BROMBERG: I would just note for 14 the record that document NS-14 A is a document 15 that has been put together by USA as an exhibit. 16 And in looking at the document, much of the 17 right-hand portion of it is also contained on the 18 left-hand portion. And I think that is what is 19 causing the witness to have problems with putting 20 together the distances. And I think under the 21 circumstances it is very difficult document for 22 the witness to work with. 23 THE WITNESS: This is a duplication 24 of this. 25 MR. BROMBERG: The witness has 157 Sfiscko-Cross 1 indicated right and left-hand sides are 2 duplicated. 3 MS. COLLINS: This is the form in 4 which we received this document in the current 5 production with 2 pages number, F 0 0 6 8 0 but 6 it appears that - 7 THE WITNESS: These columns 2 to 12, 8 you have them right here, it is a duplicate. 9 Q. So it would be a more accurate 10 description of the area, if the numbers ran in 11 series, from one to 18 without the repetition of 12 numbers. Is that correct? 13 A. That is correct. 14 Q. Sir, you testified earlier that in 15 the safety program at the plant it included 16 purchasing sweepers, vacuum cleaners, and adding 17 people to the staff to vacuum up. Do you recall 18 that? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. when did that take place? 21 A. Oh, Huffman cleaners, power sweeperswere 22 purchased anywhere between 58 and on. 23 Q. Power sweeper, sir, is that a large 24 machine in which a person sits - 25 A. A sit down job. W.LaBadie purchased it. 158 Sfiscko-Cross 1 He purchased for the whole Johns-Manville pipe 2 Division. 3 Q. And after the -- you are using term 4 H U F F M A N? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. And after the Huffman cleaners were 7 purchased was sweeping of the floors done - 8 A. Mechanically. 9 Q. As opposed to manually? 10 A. Right, push brooms went out. 11 Q. And your recollection is that that 12 took place approximately 1958? 13 A. 14 58, 59, that area. Q. And was there a job category added 15 that at point for sweeper? 16 A. 17 Power sweeper. Q. I want to run through this next area 18 of testimony as quickly as possible. I know it 19 has been a long day and a long week for you. 20 There are some documents that we 21 referred to the other day, and in the rush of 22 business on those days there was a few questions 23 that I neglected to ask you. I would like to go 24 back and ask you about several of those documents, 25 sir. At the same time I want to add 2 additional 159 Sfiscko-Cross 1 documents for you to take a look at. 2 I'm going to hand the witness, 3 unless there is an objection from the people in 4 the room -- I'm going to hand you what I consider 5 to be a clear copy of NS-9, because there was a 6 complaint the other day that the copy was 7 illegible from the gentleman, Mr. Tortoreti who 8 has just taken a copy from me. We're supplying 9 what we consider to be a cleaner copy to the 10 witness. 11 MR. TORTORETI: This is definitely 12 cleaner. 13 MS. COLLINS: Should we mark this 14 NS-9 A, just so that it is a second copy. 15 16 A.) (Whereupon, document is marked NS-9 17 Q. I'm also handing you again, and this 18 is not, again, the official court reporter's 19 copies -- perhaps we should mark each of these. 20 Here is NS-10, just for the record, the reporter 21 did that not have her copies today. This is an 22 identical -- here is an additional one marked 23 NS-33, which has not been previously marked. 24 (Whereupon, document is marked 25 NS-33 for identification. 160 Sfiscko-Cross 1 MR. BROMBERG: The witness had an 2 opportunity to look at NS-9 A. 3 MS. COLLINS: I would ask him to 4 look at all 3, I believe we can do this with 5 general questions as to these 3 documents; or I 6 would hope so, just to shorten the record. 7 MR. TORTORETI: Although I certainly 8 think that NS-9 A is clearer than the previous 9 NS-9, I appreciate you doing that. I think my 10 objection, or concern pertained to NS-10, which I 11 think is pretty illegible, and still remains 12 pretty illegible. 13 MS. COLLINS: Well, Mr. Tortoreti, 14 we did our best. 15 MR. TORTORETI: I didn't want my 16 acknowledgment it is a clear copy. 9 A is 17 clearer than 9. 18 MS. COLLINS: And just to make sure 19 these are identified for the record, Government 20 Exhibit 9 A is a second copy of a document used 21 the other day which is headed curer 10 foot or 13 22 foot machines dated 8-25-47 entitled, Job 23 Evaluation on a department transite pipe. 24 NS-10 is headed Job Evaluation K and 25 C Lathe Operator, Manville Plant, effective date 161 Sfiscko-Cross 1 9-1966 cancels date 9-7-59 and document of 2 2 pages. 3 MR. BROMBERG: Just one question. 4 The words Vince Liotta which are on NS-10, I 5 don't believe they were there. 6 MS. COLLINS: Now you have been 7 substituted a copy without Vince Liotta. 8 MR. TORTORETI: However, since we're 9 getting work product left and right in this maybe 10 we can have the copy. 11 Q. Now we're referring to Exhibit NS-33, 12 job evaluation, shift foreman, finishing end 13 Manville factory 7-28-47 transite pipe. 14 Sir, are all 3 of the documents 15 which you have before you job evaluations which 16 would have applied to jobs held by individuals in 17 the transite pipe plant during the time that you 18 were there? 19 A. I'm familiar with the whole 3. 20 Q. Would there have been at least one 21 job evaluation for every job in the I Building in 22 the period from 1947 to 1967? 23 A. There would be a job evaluation for one job, 24 but there might be more than one person to that 25 job. 162 Sfiscko-Cross 1 Q. For each of those jobs would there 2 have been a form filled out listed as job 3 evaluations such as you have before you as 4 exhibit NS-9 A? 5 And they would have been filled out on 6 similar forms. Is that correct? 7 A. This is all hourly, yes. 8 Q. And to the best of your knowledge 9 the primary person responsible for those forms 10 would have been Mr. Vince Liotta during that 11 whole period of time? 12 A. 13 I didn't say that. Q. During what period of time, sir? 14 A. This was -- this is Augie Schilling -- this 15 is Naylor. 16 Q. Which document are you referring to, 17 9 A? Is that correct? 18 A. 1947. 19 Q. That would have been written by Mr. 20 Naylor. Is that correct? 21 A. His name is on here. That is all I can 22 tell you. This is Ernie Carlson. 23 MR. BROMBERG: The witness is 24 referring to NS-33. 25 Q. Do you recognize the other initials? 163 Sfiscko-Cross 1 A. This here is Vince Liotta. 2 Q. And that would be the last? 3 A. 10. 4 Q. Now, sir, was it a regularly 5 conducted activity of Johns-Manville to create 6 job evaluations for each job in the I Building? 7 A. Say that again. 8 Q. Was it a regularly conducted 9 practice of Johns-Manville to have a job 10 evaluation on a form such as this for each job 11 category? 12 A. 13 At the beginning of job, yes. Q. And then from time to time the job 14 category would be - 15 A. 16 Reviewed. Q. And then the job evaluation might be 17 updated. Is that correct? 18 A. 19 Correct. Q. And in your work at the I Building 20 of Manville, did you have occasion to refer to 21 the job evaluation forms from time to time? 22 A. Normally when there was a complaint I would 23 review it. But with the shop steward. 24 Q. So there would be union complaints 25 that would refer to the job evaluations? 164 Sfiscko-Cross 1 A. Or there would be a method change. 2 Q. And that also might occur, change in 3 job evaluation. Is that correct? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. And at point would you be involved 6 in a review of the job evaluation? 7 A. Only after the job evaluation was completed, 8 then was reviewed with me what the findings were. 9 Q. And on each of the documents which 10 is before you NS-9 A, NS-10 and NS-33 there is an 11 area at the top which appears to be a description 12 of the job. Is that a fair statement, that that 13 was a description of the person's job -- I'm 14 sorry, I'm referring to 9 A and 33, at the top of 15 those 2. 16 A. 17 I've got 30 3 right here. Q. Would that be a job description? 18 A. Yes, that is a pretty good short brief. 19 Q. And to the best of your knowledge, 20 was that intended to describe to the individual 21 and their supervisor the duties entailed in the 22 particular jobs described in the job evaluation? 23 A. That would be the beginning. 24 Q. I'm referring to NS-10 which has a 25 second page, and that page is headed job 165 Sfiscko-Cross 1 Description Manville Pipe K and C Lathe Operator, 2 effective date 9-1966 would that be the area 3 where the job description appears on the form 4 which is used as N S number 10? 5 A. This was the finishing end. 6 Q. And would this be a fairly accurate 7 description of the K and C lathe operator's job 8 in 1960, sir? 9 A. I would say so. 10 Q. In your examination -- now, strike 11 that. 12 Would it be fair to say that there 13 are probably hundreds of job evaluations on 14 similar forms and formats for the people who 15 worked in the I Building between 1947 and 1967? 16 A. You see hundreds, you mean counting all the 17 changes and everything? 18 Q. Yes, sir. 19 A. You've got me. I have no idea. 20 MR. BROMBERG: I have an objection. 21 I don't think the witness was in charge of 22 preparing or utilizing these. 23 MR. LACEY: Let me just state for 24 the record that I'll join in that objection only 25 because he did say he had some input into the 166 Sfiscko-C ross 1 evaluations. 2 THE WITNESS: I don't know how many. 3 Q. There would have been a number of 4 job evaluations during that period of time. Is 5 that right? 6 A. That is correct. 7 Q. And would that job evaluation have 8 gone from the person who swept the floor to the 9 supervisor? 10 A. From the bottom job to the top job. 11 Q. And was it a consistent format and 12 system used for those evaluations, sir? 13 A. Pretty close to the same. 14 Q. And was there a manual used to write 15 those job evaluations, to the best of your 16 knowledge? 17 A. That would have to be answered by the 18 person that wrote the job like Vince Liotta. If 19 he had a manual he used. He had a manual. I 20 don't know. 21 Q. And you had testified yesterday that 22 these job descriptions Mr. Liotta would come into 23 the area to examine the work area. Is that 24 correct? 25 A. That is correct. 167 Sfiscko-Cross 1 Q. And was that your knowledge and 2 recollection from 1947 to 1967? 3 A. He wasn't there in 47. 4 Q. When did he first come, I'm sorry? 5 A. I don't know that. 6 Q. For the period of time that he was 7 there, was that his practice, as far as you know? 8 A. It was a practice of anyone that had that 9 particular job. 10 Q. During the time that you were 11 associated with the I Building, do you know if 12 there was an additional incentive paid for jobs 13 that required the employee to wear a respirator? 14 A. There again, if a fellow wore a respirator, 15 it would be in his job description. 16 Q. And to the best of your knowledge 17 would the location where it would say whether or 18 not he was required to wear a respirator be 19 listed under 12 surroundings in the area of work 20 conditions on Exhibit 9 E. 21 MR. BROMBERG: Are you referring to 22 number 12 in 9 A under rating factors? 23 Q. Let me reask the question. 24 First, I'm just referring your 25 attention to exhibit 9 A, and I'm asking you 168 Sfiscko-Cross 1 to look down the left-hand column to the area 2 marked working conditions. Within that box, 3 number 12, is marked surroundings. 4 To the best of your knowledge, is 5 that the location where it would be required that 6 it would be listed if a person were required to 7 wear a respirator? 8 MR. TORTORETI: Objection to the 9 form of the question. I don't think he's stated 10 sufficient familiarity with these forms to answer 11 that question. It would require him to speculate. 12 MR. BROMBERG: Also I would also 13 note an objection in so far as the forms, at 14 least in so far as the 2 that are before us at 15 this time are different. And over different 16 periods of times different forms might have been 17 used. If the witness can answer with regard to 18 1947, and the document is based upon his own 19 personal knowledge, he may. 20 A. 21 I couldn't answer that. Q. But to the best of your recollection, 22 the requirement to wear a respirator was listed 23 somewhere in the job evaluations? 24 A. 25 On these particular jobs? Q. On any job which a respirator was 169 Sfiscko-Cross 1 required. 2 A. Oh, that is different. It is possible, but 3 I'm not sure. 4 Q. I'm going to hand you now what has 5 been marked as exhibit NS-34. 6 ( Whereupon, document is marked 7 NS-34 for identification.) 8 MR. BROMBERG: Counsel, can you tell 9 me where this document came from, since it 10 doesn't appear to have a stamp indicating it was 11 produced pursuant to - 12 MS. COLLINS: Produced in 13 coordinated claims court, Robinson discovery in 14 the Pierce warehouse. 15 MR. BROMBERG: The witness has 16 reviewed the document, NS-34. 17 MS. COLLINS: For the purposes of 18 the record 3 page document headed Manville 19 General Plant March 19, 1959, memorandum page 1 20 of 3, Job Evaluation Review, Union Management 21 Agreement, Contract Negotiations July 9, 1958. 22 Q. Mr. Sfiscko, do you recognize 23 Exhibit NS-34? 24 A. 25 Yes. Q. Do you recall having received it in 170 Sfiscko-Cross 1 1959? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. And then, sir, can you tell us just 4 for the record what it is generally? 5 A. This was inside handler in the finishing 6 end, and mostly on large diameter pipes. 7 When I say that, it would cover as 8 low as 14 inch, or up to 36 inch. And we would 9 have end plugs inserted, they were about, oh, 9 10 to 10 inches, inserted, in the I V of the pipe, 11 one on each end to keep the pipe round. We would 12 put it through the steam cure process that way. 13 It was method change. 14 When it got to the finishing end the 15 inside handler had to take the plug out, stack 16 them on the pallet and bring them back to the end 17 place. 18 Q. Do you recall that after that method 19 change was made, the union took some action to 20 have the job evaluation reconsidered? 21 A. 22 It was reconsidered. Q. And is that reflected in Exhibit 23 NS-34? 24 A. That is right. Points went up, whatever it 25 was. 171 Sfiscko-Cross 1 Q. And after such -- do you recall 2 having attended such a meeting -- would you have 3 attended this meeting? 4 MR. TORTORETI: Which question are 5 you asking? 6 Q. Strike the first. 7 Did you attend the meeting, sir? 8 A. No, I wasn't at that meeting. 9 Q. But you received a copy. Is that 10 correct? 11 A. That is correct. 12 Q. And would you normally have received 13 copies of documents relating to changes in job 14 evaluations - 15 A. Pertaining to I building? 16 17 A. Q. Yes, sir. Forming and finishing? 18 Q. Yes, sir. 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. And after a meeting such as the one 21 reflected in NS-34, would the job evaluation then 22 have been changed, the form have been changed to 23 reflect the new job rating factors? 24 A. You mean the job rate? 25 Q. Yes, sir. 172 Sfiscko-Cross 1 A. Yes, he would get more money. 2 Q. And that would be reflected in the 3 difference in the rating number on the job 4 evaluation form. Is that right? 5 A. He would have more points, if he picked up 6 10 points, he probably got a raise, whatever the 7 chart called for. 8 Q. So the job evaluation forms were 9 used as well as a basis for setting the rate of 10 pay for individuals within the I Building. Is 11 that correct? 12 A. 13 That is correct. Q. Sir, I'm handing you another copy of 14 NS-18. And I believe we'll be through here in a 15 couple of moments. You received in this document 16 yesterday and I simply want to ask you a few 17 questions. Do you recall having referred this in 18 1957? 19 A. We went through this the day before. 20 Q. You do recall having received it. 21 Is that correct? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. And in the ordinary course of your 24 business would you have retained a copy of the 25 documents which you received? 173 Sfiscko-Cross 1 MR. BROMBERG: Is that question 2 during normal course of buiness, would he have 3 have maintained a copy of every document he 4 received? 5 MS. COLLINS: No, would he have 6 retained a copy of this document. 7 A. It was probably put in my file. 8 Q. Sir, you referred yesterday to 9 Government Exhibits Number 19, 20 and 21. I'm 10 going to hand you those again,sir. 11 Sir, in the time that you worked 12 with Manville Company, did you have occasion to 13 see documents that came from the pipe controllers 14 office? 15 A. When I was in I Building? 16 Q. Yes, sir. 17 A. No. 18 Q. As to the 3 documents that were 19 before you as NS-19, 20 and 21, you recognize all 20 those individuals to be individuals who were 21 employed by Manville during the period of time 22 1957 to 58? 23 MR. TORTORETI: Objection. 24 MR. BROMBERG: I object. The 25 witness that has to be done on a document by 174 Sfiscko-Cross 1 document basis, to begin with. The witness has 2 to look at these. I also think that this line of 3 questioning was asked and answered originally, to 4 the best of my recollection, a number of days ago. 5 MS. COLLINS: We apologize, sir, if 6 you did that for each of the documents. At the 7 rate of speed we were moving on that afternoon, I 8 am not certain. 9 Q. First as to exhibit NS-19, were the 10 individuals listed on the final page as preparers 11 and distribution list, all employees at Manville, 12 in 1957, to the best of your knowledge? 13 MR. BROMBERG: Is that all employees 14 in the Manville plant or all employees of 15 Johns-Manville? 16 Q. Johns-Manville. 17 A. They are. 18 Q. Were all of them involved in some 19 way with the bulk handling and dust control 20 equipment project at Manville, to the best of 21 your knowledge? 22 A. Only for approval. 23 Q. I ask you to refer to Exhibit NS-20. 24 I simply want to ask you the same question about 25 that. 175 Sfiscko-Cross 1 A. Same thing. 2 Q. Your responses would be the same as 3 to this document. Is that correct? 4 A. Sure. 5 Q. And as to NS-21 - 6 MR. BROMBERG: I just note that on 7 this particular document, and I don't know 8 whether it is the other one, final designation is 9 analysis department, it doesn't appear to be a 10 person. 11 Q. Would your response be the same as 12 to NS-21? 13 A. That is correct. 14 Q. I am going to ask you again to look 15 at NS-22, and NS-23. 16 If I remember, sir, as to NS-22, you 17 recall having received that in the course of your 18 business in 1961. Is that correct? 19 A. 20 Yes. Q. And would you have retained a copy 21 in your files at that time? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. And as to NS-23, do you also recall 24 having received that document in March of 1964? 25 A. Yes, I'm familiar with it. 176 Sfiscko-Cross 1 Q. And did you receive that in the 2 ordinary course of your business in 1964? 3 A. I would say so. 4 Q. And would you have retained a copy 5 of that? 6 A. I would say so. 7 Q. I would like you to just look at 4 8 other document that again you looked at 9 yesterday, for the same series of questions that 10 I just asked you. They are NS-24 through NS-27. 11 A. I'm familiar with them. 12 Q. First, as to NS-24, do you recall 13 having received that in the ordinary course of 14 your business in 1957? 15 A. 16 That is correct. Q. And would you normally have kept a 17 copy of that document in your files? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. As to Exhibits NS-25, do you recall 20 having recived that document in the ordinary 21 course of your business in January of 1957? 22 A. 23 That is correct. Q. And would you normally have kept a 24 copy of it in your files at that time? 25 A. That is correct. 177 Sfiscko-Cross 1 Q. And as to exhibit NS-26, do you 2 recall having received a copy of that in the 3 ordinary course of your business in 1957? 4 A. That iscorrect. 5 Q. And would you have retained a copy 6 in your files at the time? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. Sir, do you have any recollection as 9 of having received Exhibit NS-27 in the ordinary 10 course of your business in 1959? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. And in the normal course of business 13 would you have retained a filing copy? 14 A. That is correct. 15 Q. Mr. Sfiscko, I have no more 16 questions of you at this time. I would like to 17 say -- I would like to thank you for your 18 patience and your consideration, and your extreme 19 attentiveness during this deposition. I don't 20 know if other counsel have any questions. 21 22 CROSS EXAMINATION BY MS. BROPHY: 23 24 Q. Mr. Sfiscko, my name is Moira Brophy 25 and I represent Lake Asbestos of Quebec which is 178 Sfiscko-Cross 1 one of the defendants in this case. 2 During the years 1958 to 1967, you 3 worked in I Building on a daily basis supervising 4 the use of asbestos fiber, and you also took 5 monthly inventories of asbestos in I Building. 6 Isn't that correct? 7 A. That is true. 8 Q. All right. Based upon that 9 experience, sir, could you give me, to your best 10 approximation, an idea as to what percentage of 11 asbestos fiber present in I Building during the 12 years 1958 to 1967 was Johns-Manville own 13 asbestos fiber? 14 A. That changed every year. It got so that by 15 mean 66, 1967, there was more own make fiber than 16 outside fiber, but changed every year, 17 progressively got more J M. 18 Q. Let's deal with 1960 and 67, what 19 percentage would be J M fiber, approximately. 20 MR. BROMBERG: If you can answer. 21 A. 22 I can only give you a guess. Q. You can't give me a best 23 approximation as to whether or not it would be 50 24 percent, 90 percent, 1 percent? 25 A. It is pretty hard. Take it as a guess, I 179 Sfiscko-Cross 1 would say 75 percent was our own make fiber. 2 Q. What about the early 1960's? 3 A. It could have been 60 percent, but you 4 can't hold me to it. As I say, as the years 5 progressed it got to be more of our own than the 6 outside. 7 Q. During the years 1947 to 1967, did 8 you see any names printed on bags of asbestos 9 fiber used in I Building other than JM's own 10 fiber? 11 A. Not all the time. 12 Q. Did you see some of them? 13 A. I saw some. 14 Q. During the years that you worked in 15 I Building, to the best of your recollection, did 16 you see the name Cassiar asbestos fiber? 17 A. Cassiar, I've seen it. 18 Q. Can you give me an idea as to the 19 decade that you saw it? 20 A. 21 No, I can't remember. Q. Bell Asbestos fiber, same question? 22 A. I saw it. 23 MR. MC GRATH: Objection to form. 24 A. I saw it, I can't remember. 25 MR. TORTORETI: Can I have that 180 Sfiscko-Cross 1 answer back? 2 (Whereupon, the reporter reads 3 back.) 4 Q. Do you remember seeing it? You just 5 don't remember - 6 A. I remember using it too. 7 Q. You also remember using Cassiar 8 asbestos fiber? 9 A. 10 That is true. Q. Do you remember using Hooker 11 Chemical asbestos fiber? 12 MR. RASNEK: Objection to form. 13 MS. BROPHY: What basis? 14 MR. RASNEK: He didn't testify that 15 he saw asbestos being Hooker Chemical asbestos? 16 A. We used Hooker. 17 Q. And you saw it being used? 18 A. We ran it. I was there. 19 Q. Could you tell me what decade that 20 was? 21 A. No. 22 Q. You can't tell me? 23 A. Well, it was during the task force period, 24 so 49 to 52, 53. I don't remember the dates. 25 You would have to go back to the records. 181 Sfiscko-Cross 1 Q. I'm not asking you for a specific 2 date, sir, I'm asking you as to perhaps the 50's, 3 60's, 70's? 4 A. Could have been early 50's. 5 Q. Do you know if it was used at any 6 time later than the 50's? 7 A. What was left over, we got rid of, we used. 8 Q. What about Bell Asbestos, would that 9 have been 50's, 60's, 70's. 10 MR. MC GRATH: Object to the form. 11 A. I can't tie down the period of time, too 12 much to remember. 13 Q. Did you ever see occidental asbestos 14 fiber used? 15 A. 16 I don't remember that name. Q. Did you ever see North American 17 asbestos fiber used in I Building? 18 A. 19 Is that blue fiber? Q. You did remember? 20 A. North American S Blue. 21 Q. Do you remember using Special 22 asbestos fiber in I Building? 23 A. What do you mean by Special? 24 Q. That would be the name, Special 25 asbestos fiber? 182 Sfiscko-Cross 1 A. I don't remember that either. 2 Q. Do you remember Porter Hayden 3 asbestos fiber used in I Building? 4 A. I don't remember that either. 5 Q. Do you remember H.K. Porter used in 6 I Building. 7 MS. TONELLI: Objection to form. 8 A. I remember H.K. Porter, but not fiber. 9 Q. What do you remember about H.K. 10 Porter? 11 A. They were buying air pipe. They were a 12 company buying air duct pipes, making air duct 13 fittings, they were buying the whole pipe and 14 making thier own fittings. 15 Q. You don't remember them supplying 16 any products used in I Building? 17 A. Not to my knowledge. 18 Q. Do you remember any asbestos fiber 19 coming from Raybestos Manhattan used in I 20 Building? 21 A. The destination and origin, I wouldn't know. 22 Q. Do you remember seeing any bags 23 labeled Raybestos Manhattan? 24 A. Not that I remember. 25 Q. Do you remember any fiber labeled 183 Sfiscko-Cross 1 Brinco asbestos? 2 A. I don't remember that either. 3 MR. LACEY: At this point I'm going 4 to object to this line of questioning as being 5 improper, and blatently leading. I believe that 6 you are sitting here and pretty much putting 7 words in the witness's mouth by suggesting names 8 to him. And although I have no objection to your 9 prior questions, I do have a problem with this 10 line of questioning continuing. 11 MR. BROMBERG: I suspect this is 12 called an anticapatory objection. 13 MS. BROPHY: With respect to that, 14 the record will speak for itself as to whether or 15 not these questions are leading. 16 Q. Mr. Sfiscko, to your knowledge, were 17 bags of Celotex asbestos fiber used? 18 19 20 A. 21 MS. TONELLI: Objection to form. MR. LACEY: Same objection. I don't remember that name. Q. To your knowledge was Philip Carey 22 asbestos fiber used? 23 MS. TONELLI: Objection. 24 MR. LACEY: Same objection. 25 MS. BROPHY: You can have a 184 Sfiscko-Cross 1 continuing objection. 2 MR. BRENNER: Can we all have 3 continuing objection? 4 MR. MC CARTHY: I'll join. 5 MS. TONELLI: I join. 6 MR. MC GRATH I join. 7 MR. TORTORETI: Objection. 8 MR. MC CARTHY: Just to reassert 9 that all substantive objections to any of these 10 questions will be preserved for the time of trial. 11 Q. Mr. Sfiscko, do you recall bags of 12 Asbestos Corporation Limited asbestos fiber used 13 in I Building? 14 A. That is a corporation, you have to give a 15 little more detail than that. 16 Q. Did you ever see A C L asbestos 17 fiber used in I Building? 18 A. There again - 19 MR. LACEY: I believe the witness 20 has answered your question as to the term 21 Asbestos Corporation Limited. 22 A. You would have to give a better term than 23 that. I don't remember. 24 Q. Okay. Did you ever see bags of A C 25 L asbestos fiber in I Building? 185 Sfiscko-Cross 1 A. There again, A C L, I don't remember. If 2 there is another terminology. 3 Q. Did you ever see bags of Carey 4 Canada asbestos fiber used in I Building? 5 A. Where did you get all these names? 6 I don't remember that. 7 Q. Did you ever see bags of Nicolet 8 asbestos fiber used in I Building? 9 A. Not to my knowledge, I've heard of it. But 10 I don't know that -- but not by that term. 11 Q. Am I correct in saying, sir, that 12 when you say you don't recall seeing these bags 13 of fiber you are not saying categorically that 14 they weren't there? 15 A. If they had a differentname wecould have 16 used it. But you have totell me what the fiber 17 was. 18 Q. So, you in fact recall fiber more in 19 terms of perhaps the grade of the fiber? 20 A. 21 Grade and type. Q. As opposed to the name of the 22 company? 23 A. 24 Yes. Q. I'm going to continue and just see 25 if you recognize any of the other names I have. 186 Sfiscko-Cross 1 Do you recall seeing Amatex asbestos 2 fiber? 3 A. Not by that name. 4 Q. Do you recall Atlas asbestos fiber? 5 A. Not that by name. 6 Q. Do you recall Forty-Eight 7 Insulations asbestos fiber in I Building? 8 A. Not by that name. 9 Q. Do you recall Hercules asbestos 10 fiber in I Building? 11 A. 12 Not by that name. Q. Do you recall Hollingsworth and Vose 13 asbestos fiber used in I Building? 14 A. 15 Same. Q. Do you recall NORCA asbestos fiber? 16 A. 17 That is a blue fiber. Q. And it was used in I Building? 18 A. 19 NORCA 3 hundred. Q. Can you give me an approximation as 20 to the decades when that was used? 21 A. Oh, NC 300, I can't tie down the time. So 22 many. You would have to go back to the blend 23 book to find out the time. 24 Q. Could you tell me if Turner and 25 Newall asbestos fiber was used? 187 Sfiscko-Cross 1 A. Not by that name. 2 Q. Can you tell me if Vermont asbestos 3 was used in I Building? 4 A. Not by that name. 5 Q. Can you tell me if Huxley 6 Development asbestos fiber was used in I Building? 7 A. Not by that name. 8 Q. Can you tell me if Flintkote 9 asbestos fiber was used in I Building? 10 A. Not by that name. 11 Q. Can you tell me if G A F asbestos 12 fiber was used in I Building? 13 A. Is that government? 14 Q. No, sir, it is not. 15 A. Not by that name. 16 Q. Do you know if there was any fiber 17 used in I Building from the United States 18 Government? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. And what decades would the United 21 States Government fiber be in I Building? 22 A. Amosite, and blue. 23 Q. And these materials came from the 24 United States Government? 25 A. Yes. 188 Sfiscko-Cross 1 Q. And do you know what decades when 2 the United States Government supplied these 3 fibers? 4 A. I wasn't in the I Building at the time, all 5 right. This was the 70's. 6 Q. Do you know if Ruberoid asbestos 7 fiber was used in I Building? 8 A. Not by that name. 9 Q. Do you know if Cape asbestos fiber 10 was used in I Building? 11 A. Cape is a blue fiber, yes. 12 Q. Do you recall what decades that was 13 used? 14 A. Continuosly. 15 Q. During the entire period of 1947 to 16 1967? 17 A. On and off continuously. 18 Q. Do you recall if Southern asbestos 19 fiber was used in I Building? 20 A. 21 Not by that name. MS. BROPHY: That is all I have, sir, 22 thank you. 23 MR. MC CARTHY: Can I take 2 minutes. 24 (Whereupon, a recess is taken.) 25 (Whereupon, the deposition resumes.) 189 Sfiscko-Cross 1 MS. COLLINS: I would like to go 2 back on the record and say I think the deposition 3 should proceed right now. There is still more 4 time. Mr. LaSalla who is acting as coordinator 5 is not here. 6 MR. BROMBERG: My position is that 7 the witness is here until 4:30. 8 MR. RASNEK: Are you going to 9 terminate the deposition in the middle of 10 plaintiff's deposition? 11 MR. BROMBERG: At 4:30 the 12 deposition is going to terminate. 13 MR. RASNEK: When will we have an 14 opportunity to answer questions raised by cross 15 examination? 16 MR. BROMBERG: This is the fourth 17 day that this witness has been produced for the 18 parties in this case. He's going away for 4 19 weeks, everyone knows that. We have accommodated 20 everybody. This was supposed to be for 2 days, 21 it is now 4 days. I can't answer all the 22 questions. All I'm telling you he's not going to 23 be produced between now and April 7th. If people 24 want to continue the -25 MR. MC GRATH: Let's stop wasting 190 Sfiscko-Cross 1 time. 2 MR. RASNEK: I mean I have another 3 question or 2 that was raised by Ms. Brophy's 4 questions. 5 MR. LACEY: As do I. I believe the 6 reason for the deposition being continued today 7 is at least in part because of my specific 8 request, it is my understanding that plaintiff 9 has expressed an interest to continue, or I 10 shouldn't say continue, commence some sort of 11 questioning at this point. Because this was 12 scheduled for 2 days, originally, and at the end 13 of those 2 days plaintiffs have made absolutely 14 no requests whatsoever, to continue any 15 questioning, or to commence any questioning. I 16 think they waived any right to interfere with all 17 other counsel. 18 MS. COLLINS: Your position is clear 19 on the record. I'm sorry, I don't usually 20 interrupt people, your position is clear on the 21 record. The time is running. There is no judge 22 to argue before. Why don't we just let Joe go 23 ahead and ask his questions. 24 MR. RASNEK: Are we going to do it 25 in order so the defendants are finished now, or -- 191 Sfiscko-Cross 1 MR. LACEY: I have not yet finished 2 my questioning. 3 MR. RASNEK: Nor have I, and I think 4 I have a right to, especially because the 5 extension of this deposition was made at least in 6 part, if not in a major part because of me, and 7 once I made that request, the government joined 8 in that. So it could finish its request. Now is 9 it is my understanding they want plaintiff's 10 counsel to interrupt my questioning, and I just 11 have a strenuous objection to that. 12 MS. COLLINS: Your objection is 13 noted. There is nothing we can do. There is no 14 judge. 15 MR. RASNEK: Well, we can call Judge 16 Sarokin and see what he says. 17 MS. COLLINS: We could do that. 18 MR. PETILLO: I'll withdraw these 19 questions, if it is going to cause that much of a 20 problem, and I'll defer to Mr. Lacey, or whoever 21 wishes to continue. 22 MS. COLLINS: We wish to cause you 23 no prejudice by withdrawing your questions at 24 this point, for the -- at least for the 25 government. 192 Sfiscko-Cross 1 MR. PETILLO: I realize that. 2 MR. RASNEK: I have 1 or 2 questions. 3 MR. LACEY: Okay. 4 5 CROSS EXAMINATION BY MR. RASNEK: 6 7 Q. Sir, in response to a question posed 8 to you by Ms. Brophy, you indicated that you had 9 seen or used Hooker fiber in the 1950's. Do you 10 recall that, sir? 11 A. 12 Yes. Q. Do you also recall your testimony, 13 several days ago where you indicated that on the 14 basis for your statement was solely information 15 given to you by Mr. Whalen. Do you recall that, 16 sir? 17 A. That it wasHooker fiber? 18 Q. Yes. Isn't it true, sir, that the 19 basis for your statement was that you obtained 20 some information from Mr. Whalen? 21 A. The fiber came from Hooker. 22 Q. 23 sir? Mr. Whalen said so. Is that right, 24 A. 25 Right. Q. Apart from what Mr. Whalen told you, 193 Sfiscko-Cross 1 sir, you have absolutely no information at all as 2 to where that fiber came from, do you, apart from 3 what Mr. Whalen told you? 4 A. That is true, being the origin, that is 5 true. 6 MR. RASNEK: Thank you, sir. 7 8 CROSS EXAMINATION BY MR. LACEY: 9 10 Q. In 1947 how many pipe plants were 11 there throughout the country that were part of 12 the Johns-Manville Corporation? 13 A. 47, Long Beach, Waukegan and Manville. 14 Q. Did there come a time later on, sir, 15 when other pipe plants were added? 16 A. 17 Yes, Marrero. Q. Can you tell me when that Marrero 18 plant was added? 19 A. The guy that could really give you the date 20 would be LaBadie. Marrero was first on line. I 21 can give you the sequence. 22 Q. Can you give me an approximate date? 23 A. Could have been 50, could have, but don't 24 hold me to it. Toronto, was next, Stockton and 25 Dennison. Now, I'm not sure whether Stockton was 194 Sfiscko-Cross 1 before Dennison, or after now. 2 Q. Have you ever heard of a plant 3 called Walton (phonetic)? 4 A. Long Beach. 5 Q. The Walton plant was Long Beach? 6 A. I called that LongBeach. 7 Q. Did each of these plants, to your 8 knowledge, create, or produce the same pipe 9 products produced at the Manville I Building? 10 A. Well, you mean water pipe, and sewer pipe 11 and non-pressure pipe, yes. 12 Q. Did you have certain targets of 13 production each month in the Manville I Building? 14 A. We had KOI operating KOI's, we called them. 15 Q. And were those certain targets? 16 A. They were targets. 17 Q. And were they set on a monthly basis? 18 A. Well, you could -- some were carry overs 19 and some were monthlys. We had a whole list of 20 them. 21 Q. What target would be set for you? 22 A. On a long term would be down time. 23 Q. Would there be a target of tonnage? 24 A. Down time is when you operate 24 hours and 25 they allow you the target was 12 percent, so 12 195 Sfiscko-Cross 1 percent of the 24 hours was down time. 2 Q. Would there also be a target for 3 tonnage of pipe produced? 4 A. That would -- I would say no, because that 5 varied due to what you are making at the time. 6 Because you made water pipe, you can form more 7 tons. Sewer pipe you could form less tons. 8 non-pressure, you could form less tons. 9 I would have to get into more detail, 10 because you are taking 8 hour period, 480 minutes, 11 you had form time and non-form time. Now, if you 12 operated 420 minutes, that 480 that could be 13 water pipe. Now, if you made sewer pipe where 14 you had more mandrel changes because the wall 15 thickness of the pipe change, you could be down 16 to 360 forming. The tonnage would vary from 17 month to month, depending what you mean. So 18 there was actually no saying you could have 7 ton 19 an hour, or there was no KOI for that. KOI was 20 material usage, if you made 2 thousand pounds of 21 pipe, KOI was 3 percent over, you had to use 2 22 thousand 60 pounds of raw material to make 2 23 thousand pounds of pipe. That was KOI. 24 Q. Okay, sir, you told us earlier in 25 your deposition, I believe, that the purchasing 196 Sfiscko-Cross 1 of fiber was a centralized function. Is that 2 correct, yes or no? 3 A. Came from division. 4 Q. Division headquarters wouldpurchase 5 the fibers from various suppliers? 6 A. Division would consolidate all the plants 7 and purchase of fiber, a purchase for all the 6 8 plants. 9 Q. They would then distribute it among 10 all of the pipe plants? 11 A. They would designate where it would go. 12 Q. Sir - 13 MR. MC CARTHY: May I interrupt, are 14 we going to end promptly at 4:30? 15 MR. BROMBERG: Yes. 16 MR. MC CARTHY: May I have time to 17 ask a couple of qestions? 18 MR. LACEY: Fine. 19 MR. MC CARTHY: Do you mind? 20 MR. LACEY: 21 questioning. Fine, Ifinished my 22 MR. RASNEK: I assume the plaintiff 23 in Bialy has waived the right to question this 24 witness. Is that right? 25 MR. LACEY: I believe that is what 197 Sfiscko-Cross 1 he said. 2 MR. BROMBERG: Let's get on before 3 time runs. You people do what you have to do, if 4 you people want to talk, that is fine. 4:30 is 5 going to come. 6 7 CROSS EXAMINATION BY MR. MC CARTHY: 8 9 Q. My name is Bill McCarthy I represent 10 NORCA Corporation. You stated previously that 11 you were not responsible as part of your 12 functions in I Building for purchasing fiber. 13 That was done through the division headquarters? 14 A. 15 That is correct. Q. You also stated earlier today you 16 don't recall the names of the suppliers or the 17 points of origin of asbestos fiber. Is that 18 correct? 19 MR. TORTORETI: Objection to the 20 form of the question. 21 Q. You can answer it. 22 A. That wasn't part of my job. 23 Q. You also stated you were familiar 24 with the grades of fiber? 25 A. Grades of fiber. 198 Sfiscko-Cross 1 Q. And when Ms. Brophy was asking some 2 names, naming names of suppliers of asbestos 3 fiber, were you testifying as to your familiarity 4 with the grade of fiber or the name of the 5 supplier? 6 MR. TORTORETI: Objection to the 7 form of the question. 8 A. When she was questioning, she did not 9 question me as to the type of fiber or the grade. 10 She gave me something over and above that. Which 11 I was not familiar with. Now, if she mentions - 12 can I mention names? 13 Q. You said you were familiar with the 14 name NORCA. 15 A. 16 I remembered NORCA. Q. Do you recall that as being -- are 17 you famililar with that name as a grade of fiber. 18 MR. TORTORETI: Objection to the 19 form of the question. 20 Q. You could answer it. 21 A. The fiber we had from NORCA was NC 300. I 22 remember that. 23 Q. Is that a grade of fiber? 24 MR. TORTORETI: Objection to the 25 form of the question. 199 Sfiscko-Cross 1 Q. You can answer it. 2 A. NC 300, now, whether it was a grade or what, 3 I remember seeing it, just like I saw other names 4 on. 5 Q. Do you know the supplier of that 6 particular type of asbestos product? 7 A. No, I don't. 8 MR. TORTORETI: Objection to the 9 form of question. 10 Q. Could you repeat your answer? 11 A. No. 12 Q. You don't recall the time period 13 within which that particular type of asbestos 14 fiber was supplied to the Manville Plant, I 15 Building, correct? 16 A. Well, if you said 47 to 67, it was in that 17 time period. 18 Q. But you don't recall specifically in 19 47 to 67 when that was? 20 A. No. 21 MR. MC CARTHY: Thank you. I have 22 no further questions. 23 MR. BROMBERG: Are there any further 24 questions? 25 MR. MC GRATH I have a couple of 200 Sfiscko-Cross 1 questions. But I'm not in Bialy. 2 MR. TORTORETI: Of course, I have 3 questions too. 4 MR. MC CARTHY: Well, if I can just 5 put on the record. There is a few more questions 6 I would like to ask. I realize Mr. Sfiscko has 7 been here 4 days now, it is almost 4:30, I don't 8 know if my watch is accurate. 9 THE WITNESS: 4:32. 10 MR. RASNEK: Can we find out the 11 position of Bialy, have you withdrawn your 12 questions? 13 MR. PETILLO: I withdraw for time 14 constraints mainly in deference to the defendants 15 who still had a couple more as opposed to waiving 16 per se. I never said we waived the rights to 17 question. And I believe that that was mentioned 18 by counsel, that we have, and I don't necessarily 19 agree with that. 20 MR. RASNEK: Well, counsel for 21 plaintiffs in the other litigation is not in the 22 same -- are not in the same shoes as counsel for 23 the plaintiffs in Bialy. 24 MR. LACEY: It was my understanding 25 that the statement used by plaintiff's counsel 201 Sfiscko-Cross 1 was I'll withdraw my questions. That was just my 2 understanding. 3 MR. TORTORETI: Since we're making a 4 record I want to confirm that I would like to 5 have the opportunity to ask Mr. Sfiscko some 6 questions at some point in time before the end of 7 July 1986. 8 MR. BROMBERG: That is correct, Mr. 9 Tortoreti. You originally deferred your 10 questioning to allow the Bialy specific 11 questioning to continue. And I believe 12 Manville's counsel has consistently advised you 13 that you will not be foreclosed from having an 14 opportunity to ask Mr. Sfiscko some questions. 15 At some point in the future. 16 MR. LACEY: Shanley and Fisher is 17 also counsel for Asbestos Corporation Limited in 18 numerous other asbestos related cases. Including 19 many of those wherein the firm of Wilentz, 20 Goldman Spitzer is involved. For that reason, we 21 obviously reserve the right to question this 22 witness concerning those other cases, and this 23 deposition has been held soley with respect to 24 the Bialy matter. And I want to make it clear 25 for the record that we're not waiving questions 202 Sfiscko-Cross 1 of this witness at a later time. 2 MR. TORTORETI: Since we're making a 3 record. I don't necessarily agree with that 4 position by Shanley and Fisher. I think I am - 5 MR. RASNEK: We would join. 6 MS. COLLINS: United States joins. 7 MR. TORTORETI: I was clearly not 8 entitled timed to ask any questions about I 9 Building or anything else during the course of 10 this deposition, because of the circumstances 11 created by the Bialy trail. But I do think it 12 was Judge Sarokin's clear instruction that to the 13 extent examination was done it should be 14 comprehensive as to I Building. I think 15 everybody has stated that they have finished 16 their questioning except counsel for NORCA and 17 counsel for Wellington group. 18 MS. TONELLI: For the record, earlier 19 in the day I deferred to the U.S. I still have 20 remaining questions. I reserve the right to 21 finish my cross examination of Mr. Sfiscko at a 22 later date. 23 MR. TORTORETI: If that is the 24 position taken by the defense, I would insist 25 that when we continue, if Johns-Manville is of 203 Sfiscko-Cross 1 the opinion that position taken by the defense 2 may have some viability that the defendants 3 continue their questioning before I start mine. 4 MR. MC GRATH I would like the record 5 to reflect not to be left out - 6 MR. TORTORETI: And counsel for Bell, 7 definitely has stated all along that they -- that 8 he is not a party to Bialy. 9 MR. MC GRATH: That is right, and 10 the record should reflect that name Bell was 11 first introduced after 4 days of depositions with 12 about 15 minutes remaining in this deposition. 13 And I didn't have the opportunity to cross 14 examine at all on the identification of Bell, or 15 lack thereof. And I would like the opportunity 16 to ask additional questions on that specific 17 issue at some time. 18 MR. BROMBERG: I think the record is 19 replete with statements, objections and other 20 things from all counsel as to what their relatives 21 positions are vis-a-vis Bialy, Smith, Middlesex 22 County and anything else. I think the record is 23 clear as to that point. I don't think there is 24 any sense in continuing to make representations. 25 As I had indicated, we had agreed to 204 Sfiscko-Cross 1 produce this individual for Mr. Tortoreti for the 2 Middlesex County cases, specifically as well as 3 Smith. 4 MR. TORTORETI: And any other case 5 that I represent. 6 MR. BROMBERG: Non-Bialy cases. We 7 appreciate the fact that also there are parties 8 who are not in Bialy and Smith who may be in the 9 Middlesex County cases who are not represented 10 here today. Who I believe may have standing at 11 some point in the future to insist upon 12 questioning. As to the other people I'm not 13 going to take a position at this time. I think 14 the record will ultimately have to speak for 15 itself. If anyone can ever decipher it, and know 16 what it says. But be that as it may, the witness 17 is certainly not going to be produced before the 18 Bialy trial commences and that may make a lot of 19 things moot as to some people. 20 MS. TONELLI: For the record, not Mr. 21 Sfiscko's deposition, the deposition of Fred 22 Henry was deferred with the intention that it 23 would be scheduled at some later date. I've 24 spoken to Mr. LaSalla, and asked him if he had 25 spoken to anyone from the Budd Larner firm in 205 Sfiscko-Cross 1 order to schedule that deposition. He said he 2 had not. One of the attorneys from Budd Larner 3 represented it was a bad week for Mr. Henry next 4 week and he might not be able to be produced next 5 week. He said he will get in touch with you at 6 the beginning of the week in order to try to 7 arrange for an additional day to depose him. 8 MR. BROMBERG: I believe we will 9 discuss with Mr. LaSalla at the end of next week 10 the few remaining dates between now and April 7th 11 and depositions will be schedule on those dates 12 and circulated to the parties. 13 MR. MC CARTHY: To my knowledge a 14 few topics was brought up in this deposition late 15 in the afternoon after four o'clock. It opened 16 up some new areas that I think I would have liked 17 to explore a little deeper. But I understand 18 that because Mr. Sfiscko has been here for a 19 fourth day and according to Judge Sarokin's order 20 this would be the last day he would have to 21 appear or at least by agreement with Mr. LaSalla 22 and the defense group, I just reserve the right 23 to be able to bring back Mr. Sfiscko at some 24 other time by whatever means are available. 25 ( Whereupon, depositon is adjourned 206 1 at 4:40 P.M.) 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 207 1 2 CERT I F I CATE 3 I, DEBORAH A. BEVERE, a Notary Public and 4 Certified Shorthand Reporter of the State of New 5 Jersey, do hereby certify that prior to the 6 commencement of the examination, NICHOLAS SFISCKO, 7 was duly sworn by me to testify the truth, the 8 whole truth and nothing but the truth. 9 I DO FURTHER CERTIFY that the foregoing is 10 a true and accurate transcript of the testimony 11 as taken stenographically by and before me at the 12 time, place and on the date hereinbefore set 13 forth, to the best of my ability. 14 I DO FURTHER CERTIFY that I am neither a 15 relative nor employee nor attorney nor counsel of 16 any of the parties to this action, and that I am 17 neither a relative nor employee of such attorney 18 or counsel, and that I am not financially 19 interested in the action. 20 21 Deborah A. Bevere C.S.R. 22 23 24 25