Document evnJNVd1oDVzN7n5bVVLygwrq

1 IN THE CIRCUIT COURT TWENTIETH JUDICIAL CIRCUIT OF ILLINOIS ST. CLAIR COUNTY 2 FRANCES E. KEMNER, e t a l . , 3 P laintiffs, 4 vs. 5 MONSANTO COMPANY, 6 Defendant. 7 ) ) ) ) ) NO. 80-L-970 ) ) ) ) Before the HON. RICHARD P. GOLDENHERSH, Judge 8 9 10 11 12 JURY TRIAL 13 A pril 16, 1985 14 15 16 17 18 APPEARANCESt 19 MR. REX CARR and MR. JERRY SEIGFREID, A ttorneys a t Law Appeared on Behalf of the P la in tif f s 20 MR. JOHN R. MUSGRAVE and MR. JOSEPH NASSIF, A ttorneys a t 21 Law, Appeared on B ehalf of th e Defendant 22 23 MARSHA SCHNIPPER O ffic ia l Court Reporter 24 1 2 PHOCION PARK 3 Cross Examination 4 C larification . , 5 INDEX 2 23 6 r>" :f'VV 7 8 .\ - EXHIBITS'. ;V INTRODUCED ` 'ADMITTED 9 P l a i n t i f f 's'N o. 1302 . . L ,t 10 P l a i n t i f f 's No, 1301 and 1301a1'. 11 1 J *- \ 12 . 22 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 I 19 ! i 20 21 22' 23 24 ,W ' V" -, S `V; 0'aS i-v--` w -a,4fc '- r *'"*?*- V - > fA 4 C- 2 ^ 4 ^ , ;Vi * ^ ' 4nr *<Jy * 1 ' -I-;* )2 1 ^ > r , ' . BE IT KEMEMBEFJED' AND CERTIFIED th a t h e re to fo re , oh . >L to -w it': Tuesda, A p ril 16, 1985 ."being he o f th e re g u la r ' 3 :- j u d i c i a l days o f, t h i s C ourt, ;th e m a tte r <as h e re in b e fo re s e t 4 .. f o r th came on fo r hearin g b sfo re th e HN. .RICHARD P; GOLDENHERSp ` s cC ircu it Judge in and fo r the Twentieth Ju d ic ia l C irc u it, S tate ^- Y' ; : " ,i -, ,*L ^ . 6 - ' o f I l l i n o i s , S t. C la ir C o u n ty -B u ild in g ,FE e l l e y i l l e , ; S t . C la ir li- ' , '' r ' \^ i r>&\.jl y\11`'. <j *,rs\ - . . ' 7->. County, I l l i n o i s , a n d ' th e follow ing ws had o f 'r e c o r d , to - w it;' t8;V *= , -. r - r " , - ^ it*r ifeV*/-*'*"..y,*r-\:- v,/V-A- wi-V1'* Tf j?l - - ' l/ 9 ; '* V iv A :';* : / ^phocion park, . // "r \ ' : ';'V . '"*,v T - . y ', jo resuming, th e w itn ess stan d haying been p re v io u sly 1 sworn, .t e s t i f i e d fu rth e r -as fo llo w s: , * S F' V 1 ' -* - ' /. ' L. J 1 -_ J -s - t ^j 1 J . *. ' * *- ^ ` ' / -' , *,, i ^ 12 ' CROSS EXAMINATION (Continued). 13 A: ;BY MR, CARRr?'".. ^-V' t 'v ^ *' 'A-.V;- ' ' 14 . Q - M r.P a rk , r e f e r r in g again t o t h e Chart 1301 and 130a 15 : -- and I see yours hao been taken . -- handing you again 1301 PENGAD c o . : ' B A V O N N E .-N .J. 0700Z 16 and also handing you P la in tif f ;1s E x h ib it 168, and. i t 1s. tu rn ed )?/,% ;to Table 2, a n d t h a t in d ic a te s , does i t n o t , th a t 2 ,4 d ic h lo ro - 18- Iphenol th a t has th e wordsDCIPsp i l l next; to i t had 5875 p a r ts ; ; , " 'y'; ' %^v.' .' ; ` ;-Vvv' - L`^ ., - . 19 ; p e r b i l l i o n p f tric h lo ro d ib e n z o -p -d io x in . Da you sea t h a t , 2 ; ; s i r , the f i r s t -- ` ' A- . ' 21 Ai -, '" A '-'' ; A. I t , Has th e M-OrNrS on top o f i t ? / '! "< -- ; V .v 22- V- / ; ' ;23,` ; . Q , Yes. I t ' s th is oho h ere, ; We're down to h e re . . ' A ^.;Yea;Jv ' a ,24 a . Q' ; A ll r ig h t . ' And th a t hao th e trich lo ro d ib en zo -p rd io x itk S r J- -***..' . ". h "f f 1>,' , - ` - -,.s, -w.'lk. , ; ,^, - ' l.<--.. -. * -' -y,J- 1-` ,*/' 'I-` .*--.* "v, N- ;} yl',i;) , *' ; .r , - - ^ * -*i --i 1... - -,- ? , .- j . . ' .: .v 1, -. ' '' 'Y V , r ' ' ` - >i ,'V ' ; '3. . . - - ; . , ' : - ' , ; v'-'V ; , \ v i - . -* . t; - . -, ^. iv . , * ". ' * '' Ir l- ` tts% S - . J. l ' * ' ' - ' 1 ^ ys * > ' * " V^r^ v iK '-- V" 1- v , v - ^ V * 1t , , ' . ' T * ,, r - . - . T **.%* . ' *^ ^ 1 * ' J*'* ' ' ^ ii ' ' Ak * i " J' `3 1' 'V *" -- ' ' v\ " J - -'V ' ` ' - J 'Y ' 4- ; T. ' ,, . ( f iy -f* ^ i; : a t'th e lev el o f 5 ,875.p a rts p e r ^ b illio n d o e s i t not* k X see t h a t , *S *'V 1 - r -' ' -- "; "rf'1, . : ' >f, VjL < '3'' Q -- Y-according t o t h a t llonsanto study? " .. -4 ''YesV^sir.- V.`? /;; v'Y .^ r - ; ',v f . , ,,5 6 ^ Q; A n d i t has th e t e t r a d i o x i n e a t 487 p a r ts p e r b illio n ? , / , ' . A Yes, ^ v;.fc- v , ' >1 r . -l ^ - - ^ -.r :tv- Q And i t has t o t a l dioxins o f , i f you would add those -'. 8 . up b r ie f ly * in t h a t l i n e o f .48' - - . soma -48,QOO p a r ts p e r :,b i l l i o r L : V. r C } :: S 9 o f d io x in s, does i t n o t>r;flir7../ ^ ^ M /.y: 1 -i pS : : ;lli A W ell, l e t ' s see'now . ^iJhich line?.,- r '-V' , v .j - y ;"Q> > ' . ,^ ; , v ' * r - i , ' * l- 1 ;onn, T a b l e ; ^ ^ u . - - ^ . ' i,' -v /,-* ' 12 , A Well, X - - .Clet *sr see, t o t a l v - - adding up a l l o f ' 13 ; th e numbers in ' th a t f i r s t lin e I ,g e t 50,997. I may have: - - ;y : 14; maybe X pxinched^ the wrong niiraber . , . V,^ ` - . I K ; ;j : .Q Wall , you probably a re more c o r re c t in t h a t in s ta n c e ` PgKGAD C O .; BA YO N N E, K .J . t 07002 > FORM. JL 24 0 ; /1 6 ' than mine, because^ j u s t fehisi,v r - >B-24 and 20 w>.uld be 44, 49, i i : '; 17 ` ; r iV^': * x ; ! -, 19-, ` , / . y j? f <` * would be c lo s e r to 50 ;000>partsVpero b i i l i o n i t n o t, veir? > ^ " ts' ' 1 ?( - I, K ,m r K *. A ; ' . ,v- thaja 48 ,0 0 0 , ;would; : 2 ; Q -1 1N o w .th a t 50,000 p a r ts :p e r rb i l l i o n Vof^ to ta l'id io x in s 21; i s ,what,:, -two hundred tim ss h ig h er th an th e 250 p a r ts p e r b i l l i o ^ J .22'F to ta l: dioxins Dr. N air 's a id sh ould'be re p o rte d 5, to th PA?, '"V >23^. /-; Is th a t ,th .s r 25, s u re , i t would.go two. hundred tim es high: r ,v * ^ '? 'H >r;;'n ' v ` : - ^ 7 th a t' tatV:wpuldn' t i t , l > i r f ^u `" 1 " ,, -C * * St'*''''* J -1 >. `' V l` t^ ^ ` "V ' b. ^ . " ,_. 1l ; "- .'Y " ' -/.i v*;' Ti ^s^. * ,y t -t k i?,i?i.'KK-ar . -, ^'*,>j . _ - - 1- ^ Y k _u : 1 Jr Y.'J.- , '1 - , A , r ' v1; \^ , V - 1' . '^ .7 .v---^7-.;; ^/ }\y,', v A , w - , 7. v ,, _, . v*`: - A. ; / 7 '. ` - -.- M; 1r - * <-i . 1 7 > 7 7 ] '. ^ '' ' ' 1: , .."' *.v ''' ^ /. 1 , yS * ; r r/ k" ` 3 - , / ; :. ,JA-: 'I d o n-7't ,k'.rn'ow.1t'rh*'*a';".t;/:1/DVr.-. N air'p h raB e d - -, ` it q u i`t 't h,,a t^vzay, 1' b u t I guess" 250 would gb ih to 50* 000 two hundred tin e s'. ' Q : Now, t h i 8 i s a 2>4 dichlorophenol th a t was in th e - ; .-i ; ` . ">;</ ^ -v1" . J ' ' ' ' .. \ n p ro cess'o f./jb ein g `sK ip p .ed ^ h eti''-a;p o rtteh -'O f'it,'I orget the anunt t sotne se v e ra i drums o f s p i l l were cleaned up in February l. * ' \ t ," V6 . o f ' 7?,, 0e v e ra l drums 'o f d ir t; cpntam inated w ith th a t s p i l l were '^" ' v* V * X? i cleaned up ;! b u t th is shipment: containing 50 #000`p a r ts per ` ` , 8- b i l l Ion o f /d io x in was. shipped o u t to ./c u sto m e rs. Mr. Park ^ /-/ X ' ' according to the testim bny in evidence. . To your knowledge l .10 was th e re -ever, a S ection v8(a) meeting, h eld t o determ ine whether J^ * # ^*- ^ - J ' hf 1 - ,t`t-#*" j -1N ^ -T ' /{ t*r - " f 1 ' V L -P - - /" f ' J t- . -vii: r- o r n o t you; should re p o rt th is , to the EPA n o tw ithstanding th a t ; 12 ; 1i t had ' two hm dred tim es t h e le v e l of dioxin th at- Dr ,N air s L h. . 'A * - ... >ta^ _ r , r- 'J - ,1 3 X s a id t o be su re in 41985 8houid be reported? 'r " ti 1 ' L "A. .-' / "v';-;'V '; j -V/I"-,;. - 14 ' o r n o t such .a m eeting' was ever, held s ir ? - Do you know whethe^ -j . 1 .-PEKGJ jU. C .O, 'BAYONN,E N.J., 0*002 .Vj s jf- * vi , F A ;/ Mr, C a r r . t h a t was a d if f e r e n t pro d u c t, d if f e r e n t : y f }6 c o n te x t , e n t i r e l y .. I don ' t know thap - it *a proper to equate jf.-; :Dr. N a ir'.sJ > K / '`;y- * ' 1,- :i, if"' '; 18 ; Q . Mr. P ark, I don* t want to g c t back in to the iuoecand e:t- V H 1 H. ' \ v a19J ^ - s' * * y ' 2P; *, L J ? sJ y ill/ i ..v22.;. '23:' ; posure, because :!the ".w e've gonie th ro u g h th a t.. .Your view o f what i s exposure i s c o n tra ry to my view. ^ Your Monsanto view , >' 'i "r' * C * - . , y 1< i '*!%,; k * ^ >< Jt * t . J i. ,. ji - , -i. ^ ^ **' i ,ii ^ ^ ' '7 M v ; * >> r m-. *> * *" is co n trary and you1r e e n t i t l e d to have / t h a t view b ut now my ^V q u estio n i 3 was th a t to /y o u r knowledge th e su b je c t o f a S ection 8(e) m eeting/and was .i-"t f^jfoiyre;r.r rve p o rted to th e. EPA? ;;; . V '- i . - 24 ` A . I d o n 't r e c a ll th a t th e re was. anv8(e) m aeting over k %' .:/ : . ,f ^ t 1 . ?-* v / h. " . S W J W & s i / y y X . , ?:?. ; i ' J J' ti* .- - i **:" `I *,,-i r * * i *. jJ. i - -J --/ : . - ' ^ . ... . . . '. it. 1 J ,v i ~ . k` t f i 1`. ' \ I .. fi i, -. . W - i , . . . ,. l:-J lw<. 1 ^this shipment. 2- Q And my n ex t q u estio n i s was i t ever re p o rte d to the 3 EPA? 4 A Not to my knowledge. 5 Q To your knowledge was the customer th a t receiv ed th is 6 shipm ent, whether i t was going to be in co rp o rated in to o i l w ell 7 a d d itiv e s th a t workers would be exposed to by j u s t working w ith 8 th e a d d itiv e o r whether o r n o t i t goes in to 2 ,4 D o r Weed-b-goni 9 to be sprayed on p eo p le's lawns. Do you know w hether o r n o t 10 ; th e customer was ever n o tif ie d th a t I t was re c e iv in g a shipment 11 t h a t contained 50,000 p a r ts p e r b i l li o n o f dioxin? 12 A I don't know, b u t I would n o t know whether they were 13 o r n o t. 14 Q The n ex t e n try th e re on th e c h a rt i s fo r KB606.. I t 15 again i s 2 ,4 DCP, and i t was m anufactured o r a t le a s t te s te d 16 in 1982. Do you see t h a t , s ir ? 17 A Yes, 66016, 18 Q And t h a t 's th e p ro d u ct d escrib ed in P l a i n t i f f 's 19 E x h ib it 1184 and 1184a. Do you see th a t in the numbers th e re , 20 "th e KB6016? - ,,' 21 A Yes, I do. 22 Q And th e . - - do we have 1184, Je rry ? Unless you - - 23. you can see t h a t from there*. We can use. t h a t . ^ .. 24 ' A ` Yea. ' ' K*'* : ,1 - . -T -'Ci-iiv S l iM ; Ti & V t J- -> - ' V , , ` " ` r 1 .T' ' ! ;. . r . jk ' - 'L ,, - ^, r, " 't i . ' - r *v. f - ; ` , j \ i " * ij ,, * ' *, > -c' * H. 'J;-/- Q Ju st i f y o would c o n fira th a t the dioxin, including; -",-2V*^" '/ 1 th one w ith th e c a r e t, th e CL3 t o t a l le d up to \ 1- llL v"' -,'t V" ^ _ !* . ' - t, - J. *' - ` ' . nJ' ; *'` ^ -, b' i l l i o n dioxin in. t.h/ i^s- >raYnpl*' o f i 9v6-2VO-. 1461 p a r ts p e r; -v " `r . - 4 ` . MR; MSGRAVE.: ^ i 'ws 1184,`Mr. Carr? ' >; ^ ; 5^ `V) ; - J ;7 %,.8 : _J "" ' , 9 . . ; M .; `CAER' l 8Av .the^exKbc i s 1184 r i g h t h e re . '. :: , '' /+>-., , " ,V . v ' ^ - T*', "ip ' " " , Y , S , j.- . ** '* * `W' F J -, `I f .you want ,>use our copy ,of -i t . ; * ' r t 'tvf . ,, * ^ ( t v '... ^ ^ ^ r ** *z *' *. * r *' >., - v v' \"1cj^j,,** , si - - , -, ' * * - s , ` ^ * 1 - " l'` ^ ; , y T - **r l^ ' ' 'there' .Zahad those fig u re s xo t o t a l 1128. " / ''r/ ; y ;o^ne ^minute;f / V ^ ' V v.v; ^ ^ r `^ / r/ ^ *r.v ; ; ' - ... j v,, K - ^ r* ' Oh, ' --:f: .. ' ; Q , ; Now you,must n o t add' th e 17 a g a in , bechuce th a t ' s , 10,, - .11 ; L -"W Y 1 Vl2."` `'in tlu d e d :ih ;:th e \7 2 ,' J ,^ ^ - 2 ^ <j * : .i - *j u :\ j . l V ,* V ^ / r - 'r A : r vdid.` ; L et me ta k e "th a t o u t kth e n . _ %' * k 4 -i r* J a ' ,^ + I got: 1 ,1 1 1 ' *' ^/ : * : ; / " - : " / / . : v. \ .. . - . , ^ . , ,, ;MRv- MUSGRAVE., I *m sorry-,; didn* t hear you. _ ; ' \--`;i3; ; : '.? He sa id . 1 , 1 1 1 !; I:'ve g o t i t added up t o . 14 - 1461.,L Let Vs see , th a tw o u ld .b e 630, 870, 1080 and 72 would be ` ' S--'.- - l- t ' . , V . _ - ` V , " " . j . . 1 ' -* - . . - - Y i^ * , " ' > .. t * -,. y ,' is about eleven huhdredr ^ - 1150. I th in k we accept your fig u re s ;I6v ; : i?.' " L ?i /.isr and; I VI1 m odify'this. :v"; ''/-V'J. ' \ .' ; : , THE COURT: ' 4 ^ t vwas ;the %UEd>r again? I 'm eo rry . 'MVCRR. ' I 'm n o t s u r e , your Honor. I -11 have to; ^ v 19 ,20 'il-* .'add th a t: ag ain ., ' >V;-. v-V' / / `v ;/'- v; ' ; ,-Vr / ! ' ; ^ .^ti - courtV i>ka.; : - r V V ' 'V fc - \* - ;; _ " ;;V v . ; v-; MR.;. CARR: ;; There 's two .606fs ., Add, t h i s n ex t one up. Y. 22- I may have g o tte h two columns H ere's one i s 44 t r i ; yes, V. 23 214 add th is secpnd coluran up, .th e r e p lic a te . v ,^ ; - * - ,r^ V - ,, , 1 ' s\ 1* ' v ' . ' s. ' . p' , * '- " i* ^^ ' -J - / v . ^^ ^ 1 ' ' L ^^ A ; O k ay .H ere in t h is ; going across th a t second lin e * * *' I ' -t.- ' '-J" ^^ ^ ,-<v -. 'A'V-CJvtt'V-'y--.y*,;-.fs4; t- '* ,-:: \ - ' ** ' ' ,,' ' N,"v i- '-jf lTl--i-s, / '%J s V^' z 3 ,VM-XYf'` - -, "J PEN GAD 'CO .'. S A V O N N E ! N .J.- .-.07002 I * VI f r s. 7 1 get 1461. 2 Q W ll, t h a t 18 ap p aren tly th e 1one th a t I added r a th e r 3 than the f i r s t one. 4 MR. MUSGRAVEr May X in q u ire , Mr. Park, did you add 5 the 44 under the CO3 column? 6 MR. CARR: Yes, he d id . / 7 THE W ITN ESSY es, I d id . 8 MR. MUSGRAVE: I would o b je c t then, your Honor, to 9 th is calcu latio n as including an in terfe ren ce which is not 10 r e f le c tiv e 'o f t h e i r being 4,4 p a r ts p er b i l l i o n based u p o n t c e t i - M mony w ith ,re g a rd to th e .in te r p r e ta tio n o f t h i s e x h ib it and 12 o th e r e x h ib its . 13 THE COURT: O verruled. 14 Q This fig u re o f 39 should! be changed to 44 I f w e 're 15 using th a t column, i s th a t n o t c o r r e c t, and th e 72 should be 16 changed to 877 Now, the n ex t one i s Sample 6018 would be on 17 the same e x h ib it th a t you have. Would you add th a t p le a s e , s i r , 18 and - - 1? A I 'm so rry , what was " th a t, which, one? 20 Q 6018, KB6018. - 21 A A ll r ig h t. . Yes, I g e t , 557. 22 Q And the tr id io x in --` 23 MR. MUSGRAVE: J u s t a moment. Mr. Park, again are 24 you adding 27? J 1 QtZ 'll WHOJ ,<r 1 THE WITNESS: Yea. 2 MR. MUSGRAVE: Again I would o b je c t fo r th e same 3 reason th a t i t r e f le c ts an In terfere n ce th a t does n o t r e f le c t 4 27 p a r ts p er b i l l i o n . 5 THE COURT: O verruled. \ 6 Q And t h a t shows n o t more than 27 p a r ts p e r b i l l i o n o f 7 th e tr id io x in and 44 p a rts p er b i l l i o n o f th e te tra d lo x ln , i s 8 th at correct# sir? 9 A T hat's co rrect. 10 Q Along w ith th e o th e r fig u re s? 11 A -Yes. 12 Q And th e Tank. 164# th e r e p lic a te sample has 57 - 13 more than 57 p a r ts p er b i l l i o n -tric h lo ro d ib e n z o -p -d io x in , 140 14 p a r ts per b i l li o n o f th e te tra d lo x ln # and a t o t a l o f 903 p a r ts 15 p e r b i l l i o n o f dioxin# is t h a t correct# s ir ? 16 A . Let me -- l e t ' s se e . Okay. Including t h i s 57 w ith 17 th e le s s than sign in fro n t o f i t I g e t a t o t a l o f 1957. 18 Q A ll r ig h t. And the Sample KB6017 -- 19 MR. MUSGRAVE:- May my o b je c tio n a lso run w ith reg ard 20 to Tank 164 as shown on P l a i n t i f f 's 1301 as in clu d in g th e 57 21 fo r th e same reason as p re v io u sly s ta te d . 22 THE COURT: F ine. So n o ted .' 23 Q R eferring now to RB6017 i t shows n o t more th an 33 24 p a r ts p e r b i l l i o n o f trid io x in # 65, p a rts p er b i l l i o n o f the i . ' a, " *.* rt ,> ' > '' . * ` / ` Y. \t `i ' . *, v (: ' 'l 1 t e t r a fo r a t o t a l o f 903 p a rts , p o t ; p il l i o n o f .dioxins, i s th a t 2 correct, sir? `, 3 A I add up those numbers to be 903. 4 Q And handing you now P l a i n t i f f 's E x h ib it 1192 -- 5 MR. HUSGRAVE: Your Honor, may X in te rp o s e th e same 6 o b je c tio n w ith reg ard to c o u n se l's re p re s e n ta tio n o f KB6017 agali 7 as in clu d in g th e number 33 in the t r i column as an in te rfe re n c e 8 n o t r e f le c tiv e o f 38 p a r ts p e r b i l l i o n o f th e substance in th e 9 -- same o b je c tio n X made b e fo re . 10 THE COURT: So n o ted . -- 11 HR. MUSGRAVEi And i t ' s overruled? 12 THE COURT: I t Is o v e rru le d , yea. 13 Q And d ir e c tin g your a tte n tio n to P l a i n t i f f 's E x h ib it 14 1192 and th e second page th e re o f and to the one, two, t h i r d lin t IS ELS, KL1 S0Q1 and fo r th a t -- and w e've mentioned t h i s e a r l i e r 16 Hr. Park, fo r th a t - orthochlorophenol crude th a t was manu 17 fa c tu re d o r a t l e a s t te s te d in 1983 co ntained n o t more than 18 3.6 p a r ts p er b i l l i o n o f th e ;tfic h lo ro d lb e n z o -p -d lo x ln and 2 . 19 p a r ts p er b i l li o n o f th tetro ch lo ro d ib en zo -p -d io x in and t o t a l 20 d io x in o f 18 p a r ts p e r b i l l i o n , i s th a t c o r r e c t, a ir? 21 MR. HUSGRAVE: I f X may j u s t have a moment, your Hon; 22 I 'v e j u s t g o tten to E x h ib it 1192, and I 'd l i k e to j u s t check 23 t h i s , i f I m ight. What page a re you r e f e r r in g to , Mr. C arr, 24 w ith re g ard to 1Jr '*.j*^V:, ' mt V -J:;; ' 2JV`- *' ' : V1 " ** , '; .V; : - - . "\ ^h 10 1 ' '. jlV'.J S , . ' '-.r":'; ',L; i rHJ*''/f^r.-.Vy--n.' ^t'w' iu.*'/i.y\:^^;r;}- ?<t^, %'xt\V-? ' -i j 'S ' MR. CARRi Page 2 . '; ' . c. rt'X-t yx: . ;VV`c*y ` 's\ *? j : >' y * - - - " s ',**.'[ - MR. MUSGRAVEi. iPagei2iX> - 1 '`3> l ,j-,si y 41 ; **.; MR., CARR: >Sample KC1800L. -,. -V;._ / . , ^ ^ -j ;1 ^ /v r' *iV* I, ^ imKrt.\ '/ *V* iv**cii ^ 4i , ^;/,2^GRA^ji;^And, ,M r.;Park, did your calculations ; ys again include t h e ; 8.5 and ;3*6: re s p e c tiv e ly 'under Column CL2 . .6 . V. 10 'V n; .: 12 '.and CL3? v' . > !a * THE WITNESS s' *Yes. j ,7 * ^ // 'r T ` / MUSGRAVE: Again I would o b je c t fo r th e same v . . ' k . C ; , v N *. J' - /,.'J f - ` J " \ . 1 * . . - * t v ; I * . / . r '- - . 4 ^ ^ ;- .- ^ \ reasone th a t those numbers.a re n o t r e f le c tiv e o f the .amounts . .v ^ o 1 > - -r. . " ' - 1 ' ^ i" : - . . , ,` ' +f - " *' 1 't A ^ K1 f \ ^ J^r i * * "* * * * * - ^, J j' a s a d d e d /a n d it's a m is re p re s e n ta tio h V ^ ^ ,v` `--i '"i^ */ ^ ./* / T . ; * -m ^ U R ii} \ -iOv^rr^ed/ r` 'TA - - ' ^ ^}- -y^" ^ v^' \ ,/ please.; - " - 1 ai 'll waoi1 iooio t'm'*3nmoavs 13 ( P i a i h t i f f 'Q E x h ib it No. 1302 .was marked fo r ld e n tir r-' 14 i i c a ^ o n , ) `\ .. * . '> ' ` ^ ' r. i I 1- * . _ - :>; x C ''15 * 1: ,'.. --a '. I know I t sa y s,. . > , ' > r ' n ^ -;r-' '>. ' - ', _- 16. ^CHE COURT^;XimfSori^f bu^ question. : 17^ pending, Mr. Park. He w ill have, th e o p p o rtu n ity to ask you and is;: you can say . then what ydu warit to' say ; \ . MR> CARR: Would you mark th is : p le a se . ^ r': ; 19 20. Q / I 'm handing ^ been marked as P l a i n ti f f 's 21 22\ EKhibi t No. 1302 and ask you toM ook a t the l e t t e r ln th e " J ' ' " 'i N" 4'* - *C . t, <' r , ' ' - . ' < _| i (( . V . , ^ ' 7- *1 C " ' . I 1', , / - 7 "< -. ` V -r; r 't \ k 'J . `| k " j # *w - ,4- rJ J attachm enta , i f you would. N ow /M r.P ark, you recognize the , 23 l e t t e r . t h a t ' s part>o f t h l s e x h ib it to be one t h a t ' s from th e .' 24- Department o f H ealth,: Education, .and W elfare. You recognize 11 A `-'l ' ` V. " / k. t "7 `-s ->. r. , - p- v- l v . - .... >,, t V L-" . r- r .. r, ;i , . ' ' ` *, j L, "' * ` >- 1 , ~ V \ J,; J ' ", . v 'l' .' ' ' ? v - V " "th at* as a branch-'o ;$ h j iU h ite ^ # * 'don*t you; `-V . 3 4 r ^S sir? / A ^V'y ^ ' *V' ? ,^V f ^ r *-' - 1 ' " . , i `-- , ` `j " J F * " -' . ,* ' , : *L- - - VY*es.' ' v !'- *:>' AS.^X " T. ' ' X -J.j O " t, ' i . ' :. * `rr- ^V r ,L" - - > ^ 1 * "A ^ ^i ^w f ^ -- p* ^ ' 4r*l 4| ^ ^ ^ ^- ^ Q ..And i t *8 t h a t part? of, th a t departraentVthat*s c a lle d rV .J \ ; S > ^ S r , X y : ' '**' % 1 -' ' * ; th e N ational Cancer In stitu te^so in etim es/k n o w n as NCI?. 6 - v V 7 ;, :8' . J, v ' V+i , * ,x x A' Tm a, ,\n v k.'S > ,, v " - 1-2.. A, ' " I t does say' th a t- In th e upper rig h t-h a n d co rn er. Q And do you recogriizo th a t as th e same NCI t h a t has - 7> '" ` *' *v..> " *( - \ ~ 1,'L-- ' . *. 'been re fe rre d , to in ,the ;^y<; o f "1979 TSCA m eeting th a t . * ' x - V- ^ ,, N . * ' -1 . 1 -' / ,* ,,' - v > t v ?' , r . , L r ^ i . r , t- ^ ,, l. ' -" \ '"L - ? ^ ;V ''jAO fta., 1 discussed the past several days?; ,; t -. we have L '- - V: - '- L_ *1 J ' ^ * ' t " a, r i ^ ,> ' " ' *J l \ ^j - n ~ * X l L ^ ' * J; , ^ 1V'1 , , ' 11-i - A \^J.;m]lild/>B&me';.lt,h ^ t ^ . samei _ J; *" "* Jr " ' ' ^V Q Yes. > And Dr. Anne Norberg> what was h er p o sitio n , in - S J" - 4' 1' i' [ . r / v , ^^ t ( tA -4'* V t \ 'V i' * * r ^V: " / `- "' '- . i * 1980 w ith Monsanto, the .person to whom t h i s l e t t e r .i s addressed^ ,' .i ; . ; 14 15 . A I , -?-V. I did know h e r . I cannot r e c a ll j u s t e x a c tly `V \ - .. ` - ' .v . V"-. *' ? ` -1 ^ .- > .' , ' . ; . . vjhat her p o sitio n waa. ;' *' . -, _ ^ a ;,". , ^ -. Q . There i s atta c h e d to th e j l e t t e r se n t to Dr. Norberg : 16' ;*: ; ' 17, o f Monsanto a data shc a * e t concerning T-4 id i c h l o r o p h e n o l . is there not, sir? s.. ' 18, , a Yes..^; . ` / / . ' * :- r ' . V: - a !v ." J, * VV- 1 ,c'" MR. CARR* O ffer t h i s e x h ib it in evidence and ask , .20 ... 21. v the jury - - I/d lik e to ask the w itness, soke questions about .. 1L " ' '" ^ ' - ,T * ' i:J ' v . .. ' * ' *, , . ' X i t while the ju ry h a s it.y o u rH o n o r. ^ .s r ' 22 * -* . 23* . MR.MUSGRAVE: VYour Honor, we would o b j c t on th e ' .. E` <A /* -, A . v!, A ' ' i'-A - .. ' T ' '' : - '''" ' v r x ; t . , lri. v '`...v, `. 1 -L 1 " ' ^c' - b a sis th a t tdie :^cum nt,"^which 'i s 'a - l e t t e r h o t from anyone a t : . 24` Monsanto, b u t frpm *V p u rp o rts to b e t h e Department o f Halth PENGA C O ..* BA YO N N E. iN iJ . 07002 ' FORM IL 24 Q '' t > 1 Education and W elfare, f i r s t o f a l l , does not involve OCP o r 2 OCP crude. Secondly, th ere* s no foundation fo r the inform ation 3 contained on th e attachm ent, c o n s titu te s hearsay, we d o n 't know 4 who prepared i t , th e b a sis fo r the p re p a ra tio n , the g ath erin g 5 o f th e inform ation and do n o t have the o p p o rtu n ity i f we would 6 want to cross examine the author o f the document. I t ' s not 7 o ffe re d by Monsanto. We o b je c t on th a t b a s is . 8 MR. CARR: One o f the purposes o f t h i s , your Honor, 9 is to show the knowledge th a t Monsanto had o f the co n ten ts o f 10 2,4 dichlorophenol in 1980 and to show th a t th is w itness o r 11 a t l e a s t Monsanto knew th a t th e 2,4 dichlorophenol had the 12 c o n s titu e n ts manufactured by o th e rs , a t le a s t in th e way 13 describ ed in th is e x h ib it. 14 THE COURT: I t w ill be adm itted over o b je c tio n . 15 MR. CARR: May we then pass i t to the ju ry , i f i t 16 p le a s e the Court? 17 THE COURT: Yes, you may. 18 (At th is time the e x h ib it was passed to th e j u r y .) 19 Q Mr. Park, you mentioned y esterd ay o r -- and e a r l i e r 20 th a t the government does t e s t chemicals on i t s own, th a t they 21 have employees o r chem ists th a t do th a t, and th a t they would 22 know, because they do have chem ists, they would know th a t 2,4 23 dichlorophenol does co n tain d io x in . Do you r e c a ll th a t t e s t l * 24 mony? : \ T" S:' 'f v * ' T:, < y ^ ,, * ^* " 1 . h, i t * * ` .13 1 As I r e c a ll th e te s tim o n y , ae-1 r e c a ll ! was saying x 2 c h a t I have seon EPA p u b lic s tio h s ' Chat l i s t e d pro casses t h a t v rsV ;5 f 1 r *-.; *:L. V th e EPA f e l t would produce products 'c o n tain in g dioxin and ' : T. Y r`* /**> Yy- y 4 chlprophenols^ was ohfe 6f/t^V'Pi0S0X?ef^ y---]y^\ 5 ; Q Now, o f c o u r s e ,;i t depends upon whose product they > " : . - , ^ V - ' - V . - ) ? '. y - '"d t - .* ; ' 6 a re te s tin g as to w hether d r 'h o t they w ill fin d o r know th a t - Z dioxin is in th a t p ro d u c t, i s n *t 't h a t ` i f one company ', ' ' * .N f > i, " '>r * * . _' * Y - L ' * I .* ,, 8 n ^ u fa c tu re s ochloririated phenol in a p a rtic u la r process and . .' * v* . r` , - *i . ^" r ** ` .- '-* *> -- L'' * ** 9 d io x in s come as a r e s u l t o f th a t m anufacturing p rocess whereas ' 10 an o th er company doesn' t use t h a t process o r u s e s . th e same ri p ro cess b ut cleans, .lt-.up and. doesn11 . use 'th in g s t h a t causes . ' 12 d io x in , i f you t e s t th e c h lo rin a te d phenol fo r1 the company .13 th a t manufactures i t in a clean method, you would le a rn - - ` 14 you would, n o t :1earn whether o r n o t. o th e r companies m anufactured ` -V**1'. . Y ' ,J... . , - - '. . rY ' Y v '-jfi.' Y y '/ - 15 it> any .way, t h a t would produce d io x in s, i s n 't th a t c o r r e c t, s ir ? i 6 ' * .17' A Well how, th e p u b lic a tio h t h a t I'm r e c a llin g Q . ; Could you answer the q u e stio n asked you, Hr. Park. i 18 .1 9 A I thought you were asking me how th e EPA would know * 1 ^ t . . ` ' r- . :- ' ... th a t th e re was dioxin in a given product;. ^ 20 Q No, I d i d n 't ask y o u ;t h a t , Mr. Park. ,, If you would, 3` 1 --;?i p lea se answer the. q u estio n t h a t l asked you. : '22 23 MR. tIUSGRAVEObject tb th e q u estio n as being a Y 1" -,%y Y ; *s X - / LV' ^ ' LV 1 ' 1 -* m ultiple question with m ultiple-parts. ^'' 24: / ' C0tJRT>\ b v erru led ; A y/ r : \ BAYO N N E, N .J, 41 - j l 1 m* y *- * 11 - * V T ' y L. -, * 14 l s r t ' ' 1 " " 2' 1 3 . . 4- ,.A, : I h o p e I can r s c a l l ' th e th r u s t r , [N j *4 -*.,, - *' i V ;,* ? ' >r ; -' V , >r V , r m- V- 7>4* ( ^ 1 -' ' I ' , -J < -, * '-* "Q"/ " ^ W lj^ t'.'nii' ^ p y p itr 'i f . #1 hi , /*- of your question. ., ,J . ' - ' * * ^, > '_ 1 i . I f the government 'te sta the chemicai, thft^2|4 "dicMorpp by on company,. f\ \i-, _ * -* - -.' ' '^; ; ; -" * w * "'"!* * . ^ vi .i > / t-**.( ^ < - i t >; i.. * ; t ^*. -- -J p h> *1 u ^ i V v ^ they would know; th e co n ten ts o f th a t sa m p le 'te ste d as se n t by . 5*/ t h a^ t c^ompany^ w o u ld n 't v tn ey i; sir?^ ,\x; ^7, v^ *' *> v ,. - - 6 ; / : A ' Yes / t h e y wobld7 L" , 1 *'J P ' Ij uJ , f < I ' /_i 1 -- ".. ; . 4i \ _. -f , . . ; > ; v /;'7 ` r ; . ? ^ '-'v; vr,; . . ,, ' ' 7 /` Q Xf th e ovemmont doesn11 t e s t th e 2 ,4 ; dichlorophenbl ' V n 'J ^V- ', ; V \ m anufactured by an o th er company and I f th a t oth er, company, j l, - 1 . V .'/ ( ; : ;,v' .{>,9 -r>` ^ doesn11 : tell* the government what dioxin-'i s .7in i t a 2,4 d ic h lb ro - 10 phenol, then th e government wouldn' t know th e ^content o f th e ' t 11 second, company'.s 2,4 dichiorophenol , would they / s ir ? -: 1 2 V . A - The government .would know th a t th e re could be dioxin 13 p r e s e n t. \ v v 1. ; -- ' ^ v' > - ' V ' *'-vVVv, v^ `' : . - V ' i y . ^ Q J;. Now would you answer th a t quae t i o n ,; s i r * Would you 15 -V " L i 16- 17 ru h , i 7 .1.8' d ir e c t th e w itness to answer t h a t qQStin. . I ,ye broken i t . r ' : ` , <> u down fo r :himV; ' . made i t .sim ple so th a t ,hd could understand 'V"` 1 ' L. ->:A- ../V -V ' 'r- i t , and he w ill n o t answar^that question. v ^ >' v , THE COURTi Y ou're d ire c te d to'" answer th e q u estio n , \ 19 i -as asked to.you, M r.Park* 20 ,21 : - ``22'^. : ; 2'. . 24L: s.. MR. MUSGRAV&zv,Object. I t c a ll s fo r's p e c u la tio n and ^ \ ' V 'V . ; 1- '\y y- c o n j e c t u r e ; ; - 7' ^. ; / " "7 ' "7 7 ;>- r 7 7 ' j r y , ' 7 ' *. 7 THE 0URT:;; O verruled.7 X don't b e lie y e i t does. "7 . - '*1 77 ./v ."7 ' " [ > .`7' / 7 V ' i,'*r .. v . A The answer i s yes,; th e government would know t h a t ' 'T, i - r ^-7,'7" - :,..7;7'77; r ^ 7 : '" ' / 7 . v, . th e re would be some dioxiti in th a t u n test d shipment o f c h lo r o ^ 'S 'XJ , ` - .p 1v ^ i.A i ^ V -' ' t *- 1 "H Ti, r:v> ^ M: 15 --" '' ",- t-*' - i phenol. *V "'X ' *, 2 ' Q , And where would they get; th a t, knowledge, from -the / i, . - '3, - company th a t m anufactured th e dioxin? 4 ; ; - A Because o f ?;&-;>?: iS ?X 1 v / v,.; ` "v" - T ' *0 >v * ;* V -V -'7 ` V- ' s 5-V Q -,Excuse me. ' -Where wou l d they g e t ..that knowledge? , ^ iut: f ' ' ' "',:> t \ E< lt - 1 ; i'iv _ _Vv' V r 'f.\ V>. .>t 6 Would they; g e t i t *from theicompany' t h a t m anufactured th e 2,4 J7 . '^ V dichiorophenol t h a t was, nofc>tested^and t h a t , d i d n o t re p o rt i t ? 7 . /;, . i / _ _ ^ _ > '\-rV M 7 /v v r * . ' -.v . A ,N> th ey w o u ld g e t ~ ; V. - 7 ; ' - J'\, ?9 : Q Wduld thoy g e t t h a t knowledgQ. froin th e samples th a t .10 they did te s t as fa r as 2,4 dichiorophenol i s concerned? ' ^ ~ . v ' ' ' ';v-7 , c ; v . .. - ** ,11 '- .'.,11 ' A From t h e i r own chem ist s.' knowledge o f chemical re a c tic n s . r *- - ' ' ' , l , ` - * <`k - '* *'l * .. fJ ., f ` -1 ... ' i . - j . 1 . L ^ i - '.- >j Y- , 1- ," 1 ^ V MR.MUSGRAVEj - Your Honor, may my o b je c tio n continue- / 7.. ' ./ \ - ' v V 13 ! ,to irun to !th is q u estio n in g : bout what ; th e EPA would do o r where X 7 r" ' 7 7 i C / 7 ' ' "- r 7 " ,, ' J I4> they would gt.^ infonE atiou and what they would know'a s being v - 15 . ,j ' * > y V pure speculationand conjecture^ ^ A. * V- r l t '* -4 b ' 'r'. ^ (` V j1 ^ w ^ c '/ * f ^ * n ?. L . s* ^ .THE COURT ; Overru le d , a u d i t w i l l b e a continuing^ , . 17-'; o b je c tio n . So; n o ta d v 7 ' X X V'^V- *' : **. MR.MUSGRAVE; .Thank you, ,7.. : l9i Q You u n d erstan d , doh ' t you, Ihr. P ark, th a t chem ists 20 have t e s t i f i e d o r gave; re p o rts to the government th a t i t would '; 21. V 22-' >% ' 1 r . L "I $ i-.* 23: be im possible fo r te tf a t o b e i n t h a i r chlorinated phenol or i'7* ' \ ' t, 7 f f7 ' ' ' J,r " ^ " ' ' ` ' 11 ih ^ th e ir.O C jV s t r i k e ; th a t :,..,-In:th e ;orthochlorophenol crude through'; the; e x is tin g procs ses they knew, o f a t th a t time? " .'-24V You do r e c a l l h a t, don *t you, s ir ? : . : ; . p EN G AD c o . , . ' B A Y O N N E ; N .'j; . , 0 7 0 0 2 '` ' ; v> . ` ` ' J{ S t -, - 16 ; i i% J 2 A I do -not know about th a t testim ony. Q You:don*t knowabout that? D irecting your a tte n tio n *3 to th is p a rtic u la r e x h ib it, the government here according to ' ' ' V t h i g ex h ib i t 3had a Sampl e o f ;2,4 dichlorophenol te a te d , d id n 't *' S" | i ^ `1 !*r , * 4;VV ' ->: , .l < , . 1 .^ ' ' - . . 5" they , sir? - > t V . ' *' " \ i 1- >' i ' f ? . .* %< \ 1 f,'J. ` ~ '.' - ,6 ' ' 8, * ;v ;/ *.r T % -?I -p > ` ` ^ rk ` ':; Q / : 'They d i d i t under c o n tra c t w ith a company known as .'*' ' ''. '. * f[X l' - ' ' ' '" '> , ^ f LtA*`V`r-'J,si ? th e Midwest Research I n s t i t u t e / d i d n 't th ey ; s ir ? ' -- ' A >.Ye'sr>>,;3 ^ r;\\; /;7;^CVv r 10 I ^'.lVf ` ' 12'; 13 Q ~~ oh Jahuary l0th> ;1979, didri11 , th e y , s ir ? * ^. - > ^ t V .i-r A - Yes /^ a p p a re n tly ^sb . t ' : - `fc'J *\ , F ^ v ***?> i a *1 ,* l ^ . 1 '** _ ^ ^ l-j , * - 'V y - i. Z f , - ** '"j -?t* _*v j c f * t 1 -J, . ^ - * -- ^ Q And o f c o u rs e / thac^ January O th, 1979 1s j u s t co in - ' , V -Lv.-Vv;::i . -, 1 %, 'V> - .:/* "; ^ c identally th e d a y th a t th iso c c u rr h c e took place involved in ' it ' * *Vj th is case, but: according t o th a t analysis they; tested a sample ( C5--': from Dow Chemical Company, d i d n 't they,; s ir ? -1 ` ' 3 / \ l fr, `I ' A' 3 Yes,'3V,.' .-> .. / - 3 / - , ^ ' . ^ : . 17- a ^ , j r-v ' ' Q And th e a n a ly tic a l data:, t h a t they ,used in t h a t t e s t , ` 18V 19 showed th a t o f th e dioxins i t ^ r " r " , ' " , ' ' -I, ' ' `-tr'i t not have -- they could not - I '-- F ' ' 1 "' - ' -L . f v d e te c t th e tctrach lo ro dibonad-p.-dibxln down to one p a r t p e r V '2p;; b i l l i o n , isn- t t h a t c o r r e c t, .s ir ? > 21 -s -- 22' $ ' MR/ M U S G ^ V E I i t * s m illio n , Mr. C arr. 3 : , ^ MR. CARR: No, .th at ' s ;6oi p a r ts p e r m illio n , which ! 23 one p a r t p e r ^ b iH io n , \33;>3 " ^ - V lJ .243' Q 0 you see th a t 'Mr*. Park; th e d io x in s, te tr a c h lo r o - . r i. > ' i-if' ' r jt * ; ' V . dibenzo -p -dioxin 1 "\ i .' ; A ' . Y&ah, <*; i/' - ' . -' - ' ' - \ > ' , > / > / r . '; .V . v V N / \ f - ' .. 3 .; Q -- vQl pm, h d , vn o t' d etec te d a t th a t le v e l? Do you 4 *V see t h a t , V ir? v . / /*J ; /S', , 6r A Yess, I do . . i1: do,,/see t h a tt,, ; . :i f '' ` ' f 'v' , ' - .- ' I K V ; V !. . ;V,,, \ ^ h i , , - r Q Now; in Janizary! o f /1 9 7 9 th e -government/th e H ealth, and 1 ` . W elfare Department,, had inform ation .r e la tin g to* 2 ,4 -d ic h lo r - / ,. ` ' i- , : ` [ J (.< J , V' < ,r ;, .- , /phenol which s ta te d t h a t th e te tra d io x in could n o t 1>e d e te c te d 8, a t. a level^ of, one p a r t por b i l l i p n iri D6w/s/dhemical, i s =th a t . - 10: c o r r e c t, s i r ; according to th is ? , ,/ - .- 1V; . fL ''ll' ; ' \ Apparently s o ` V./\:L V;.-,' ^ 12 . Q And a t t h a t same tim e, one month a f t e r t h a t , th e , 'h ^ '' 's , \ " ,J ' < ^ , *' ^^ _ 3 1-1 *. % * xt 'NT ' > K mr 13 ; t e t r a s in th a .M o n sa n to p ro d u ct, th e re ware 4 8 7 p a r ts p e r b i l l i o ^ i 4 , ; : according to i t s Own. t e s t ;', 27Q0 p a r ts p er b i l l i o n a c co rd in g to .15 / th e U n iv ersity o f Nebraska according to E x h ib it 1301a, i s th a t 16 ' c o r r e c t , s iifT .V ; " . `i;?-, ^ 17 a ' X - s e e `t h o s e n u m b e r s , ./. ; ^ 18 Q . . Ifey P a r k , i s h / ' t -w h a t^ I ^ s ta te d c o r r e c t , V s ir ? ' ;* ^ 19 ^ 'A Y e s rw Vn 'L L ' ' ' / / . 20 Q /M r / P a r k , n w a t t h a t t i m e a c c o r d i n g t o 1t h e i n f o r m a - ^ 21 - tlo n th e government;had in i t s f i l th e 2 , A dichlorophenol had 22 ho d e te c ta b le le v e l o f t e t r a s down t o one p a r t p er b i l li o n ; 23-; th e product being m anufactured by Monsanto bad 2700. p a r ts per, } 24 / b i l l i o n , 2 . 7vparts p er m illio n o f dioxin in i t . Now would 1'/k j Ji':- - , ' t' IS you n o t say th a t t h a t i s a ,v/ide v a ria tio n between noi d e te c ta b le ' dioxin -with a d e te c tio n 'lim i t o f one p a r t per bi l l ion Dow*s product com paredto Monsanto'1s p ro d u c t'w ith 2700 p a r ts p e r ^billion?/\W ouldcyou n o t: say. th a t th a t;-is a wid v a r ia tio n in ' the d io x in ,th e tetrad io x in content of 2,4 dichlorophcnol? ' A I f .th a t number is c o rre c t, th a t Is a siz e a b le v a ria tio n . t Q . . In th:e p en tach lo rad^ib en zb -pv-Vd io x in -the <Do.sw sample i ,s- /' > -~ 1'<' V ?,('' v "V "j-r ^ - n- - not detected a t one p a rt per b illio n , hex not detected a t one ` '*. ' * . - - 1 ^ , , / / - ' -v - i s ' l *\ j r - : - - * . - t.. - ' v - . '' f ^ l : \ - ./'V * u_-. v -r p art per b illio n / hapta not detected teorie'p a rt per b illio n , b eta not detected a t one'partrpr- b i l l i o n ,;is n 't .t h a t c o rre c t,^ - j `, . . . ,r ir - 1 ~ \ >.'V' & i v! '''-'4 i* c -, . -V ' -A \ " - ; " r - ' " -sir? .. J \V \ ` ; '0- .`A *- Yes.' \ / .y ; r *-'V.: '' f" ` ^ Q And a t th e sameltime th e Monsanto product had d ioxins a t the .level- of..50,000 p arta per b illio n of to ta l dioxins , \ ^ i s n 't .t h a t c o r re c t, s i r ? , ; ; '; f;. V;,'".' ' MR? l-iUSGRAVE: Your Honor, 1 o b je c t to th is being . re p resen ted as. th e same tim e , ' There i s no/ evidence again which i s p a r t o f th reason I o b jected ; e a r l i e r , ,,there! i s no evidence ; s to when t h i s vsample was m anufactured. You c a n 't compare ' > - A - - V- ' -. r. L; / J 1 - 'T k ' -,^'0 4 , '* y when th is sample may have been m anufactured as to when a Monean^ sample may haya bee;m anufactured. " T here's, no evidence o f th a t even in the ,document, which wo have continuad to o b je c t to . \ THE COURT: ; pbj o ctio n is o v erru led , ;; -, *; A. We did' add up the numbers fo r th is sample ap p aren tly 1 taken a t *t h is -- o f th e d ic h lo ro p h e h o l s p i l l to be around 2 50,000. v- . , ` V-., "* ' .s 3 , -., Q ; l' Is ,i t ;b a re ly possib l e ,. M r P a r k , that} the government, the N ational 'X nstitute/i theVDepartinant of H ealth, Education, r 5 and W elfare and .o th er branches o f the government b eliev ed that:'; L r, v *; - 1 ^ ` ; .' i' ...< - . 6 sin ce bow's :2,'4 dichloropHenol did not co n tain 2 ,3 ,7 ,8 TCDD or: K-- , 7 ' tetra c h l ro d ib n to -p v d i x in o r trid ib a n z o -p -d io x \in th a t they f> f '* ' ` -.*< "8 b e lie v e d tshtat 2 ,4 .dichlo r ophenol.m anufacturedrby. o th e r chemical . ' \ * ; v t r ; * * v ; '>&<' K $ - '* ' /* * ,> 9 companies u n t i l n o tifie d - to th e co n trary hd th e same le v e l o fc " t i i 5 j> \'- v 1 i*-"'1-. T *1-" -; 10 - dioxin th a t Dowxr had?' V'-'- 11 I :don 't think. so *J-\*. -, -t Y* r>^' ^i .. } . . . - > 5 ' ^ - : ` :. :. 1? MR, MUSGRVE:\ O bject, sp e c u la tio n and conjecture,. 13 THE COURTi <O verruled; ' i'v 7+- 14 MR. ARR: . Your Honor, I would o f f e r into. - - 15 A , I don't think s o M r . Carr, . ' : \'' 16 \ -- 1 - MR."`CARR: \ I-would o f f e r i n t o evidence E x h ib its 1300 t "` , * 1if. * ' * i l > V -c t n 1 p. j - r i ' 1. * * J. ' - H **. w-s ^` A ,1 ^ , t 1 A \ t- , - T, J 1` " ' 4 "t f I ' ' *V p- * |1 17' and 1301a'at; t h i s tima -V.. .1301; and 130,1a;: ; f '. W 18 MRv MUSGRAVEi We would o b je c t fo r a ll! the reasons ' , * 19 p re v io u sly ; s ta te d as to tbevm isrepre sent a t io n s , what we b e lie v e 2 0 . to be m isre p re se n ta tio n s and a lso t h e r e 's been no id e n t i f i c a t i o r 21 as to the b u rce,o f th e inform ation fbr.^GATX 12392', the OCP ' ; - ;/ ' r - V / V . , , .v 7 />;; . `r:- ` . *J'" ' . ' . ' " `.V :1 /. . v - - - . . . * ; j, ' 22- sample No, 2. -Mr.., Carr, s ta r te d on th a t yesterday,, but has n o t 23 id e n ti f ie d w h ere.th a t ,in form ation came, from,-,; ~| ` 24 " ` .MR;< CARR: I*m";sorry,, I wasn \ t lis te n in g . W at'w as ' -' 1 * 1v \ 20 1 - i t I hadn't id en tified ? '% ' )JR; -;isG^^\/;^GATX :12.9'32Y y-' - J . ' 3 ; :M^;..,CARR:' ^ h.-l .r ig h t; >!' ;"a 4Y , '5 ; 9 E x h ib it 1142, y see "that says GATX 12932? > YesY* 1'. th in k so . ' 6 fc . 7 ' ' Q Do you see t h a t ? ; r A. Yes * ' N'"l ^ 8Y ;9 MR.-CARR: T h a t's, th e OCPYthat, sp ille d * Mr; Musgra v e , . ' ",v "S ' Y ;V Y Y y , \'r ; V i'.--' \ - ' . ` i n S turgeon^'> - : ^ ' : - , r .' r ),.T;-ky4f v',,C.*,,J!v mv U :. V t ^,v_V.s-"'; \ N,r>. \ . y, * ,-% - Jr ' Y V\ 10 /KR.MUSGRAVE;/ TV^sid e r stan d t h a t , ;Mr;.V;Carr-. Y ou're y '.y y y y ' - y `y -^ - y 11 g e t t i n g t h a t inform ation from what exhibitYnow? Y ,, Y-'Y:h . -, *L y , y ** \ t ' ^ 3* * y j k ^ ^ '* 1 . vF ,, . ,'" j i 12 ; ' 'MR. CARR: I 'm g tti g th a t infofm atih 'from the : 13 Rappe e x h ib it, and th e,ad m issio n of:^counsel in fro n t o f t h i s 14 ju r y a n d f r o n r E x h ib it 1142 .Y -' : Y ;y " '. ,v- H 15 \ _- . 16 - '^Carr? f1 ' ^ 17 . , MR.; MUSGRAVEr;: Which;one o f th ese1 re ,you u s in g , Mr. *'*'; 1^ 'V\^,, 1 "^\ ^v' ' _`J- / . n ' 1' " ; - ' YY ,,- r ^' , ,' ' -v. . * -n - y k' ; S. - h ( ^ Y.\Y; .. 2' t *; ' * , ,, n ^ * l-. fc* ` j ' ' Y 1j ' f` ^ v '. ' N . *' *' ^ S' . , \ K,` / ' l\ MR. CARR: I'm usin g the admission^ o f counsel in front^ 18 o f .the- ju r y ' 'i . '::: - ,:i9 ; - .MR, flJSGAVE]:l^ ic h o n e 'o f-th e se ^ - r , / \ \ , y y 20 C . MR. CARRj . And; t h e ;Rappe e x h ib it fo r the 45 p a r ts p er 21 . , b i l l i o n . I'm using E x h ib it i 142 fo r- th e t o t a l dioxin content^ % Y 22;. adding the ,45--'in there'v -L j \ 7 'SS **rY r ^f r k'23 Y >'' MR.r,14USGRAVE: > And, which one o f the so a re you using / -for th to ta l dioxin content* which o f the three? PE G Ad ' c O .. BAYO N N E,' N .J, 0 7001 21 1' -.- < \ 1^ > v ' -.2 ./. MR.CARR: T h ; - - s e 8 t h a t 2 0 r i g h t th ere? ; , Mg;: /MSGAVE ^ ': " 3 ' V ' MR. CARR: ; You "see t h a t 1210 r ig h t there? .;\ 4 M ;. ^GRAVEVv imhm;: ` ' /' / '5 ` ^ MR.CARR:; I'm .u sin g th a t l i n e . ^ 6_ MR. 1MUSGRAVE; And y o u 'r adding ` " 7. y A "That's says 34 ;t e t r a th e r e , doesh1t i t ] n o t 45? \ r- 8 ; Q . Blit, as X. "`maybe; you w efn lt lis te n in g , Mr. Park.; I ' ' -. . ' . - - 's. i.,'" -v : ' \ '-r"'' s , ,*'">' V ,, j ^ .. 9 , Th adm iss ib n :,o f counsel' 1I s -that*it w a s ;4 5 v th e Drv, Rappe -V <, 10 / li\ ir .13" - - . .y ; . - : ; ; * v < * * > y : v r ^ - v v . \ * , - - 'e x h ib it is th a t I t was 45, 1 ^- ** 1 "" i .' * - V,, , T * f ' '*" . * ' L' ' ' i A** & ` ! ' fc " r **' " A r "' r' ^ 1 , ,MR.- M\ USGR-A VE^: . I ;obJect;v:tp ;th ey rep re'4sc o ta tio n th a t sV - I'c ; v: ^'*' * 1 *' A^ . *; / _ r- i i ' -i 1 . V ' ^, ' l mm - * th e admission o f counsei was t h a t i t was`45. X don11 b eliev e i t *'.* < ` ; ' F ' / f . * < , L- 1 * * ; ' ( ,,r t * ^ - , 1 ,n ' . ., - , V.^.# il ,tt- j a * . r it.} Vf >i, j\ .1 ' - if. >* v t' ,s1 - i. , th a t counsel adm itte 4 that:; i t was 45. That ' e a mis rep resen t a t i n. - 'I 14 . ^ MR. ,CAHR: Woli, your Honor > - - - ,; -15 r . ;THE-v.C0yR.T:: X ^preidbhsly r^uled th a t h h a s . - V .16 MR. CARRj/' Maybe',Mr. / Musgrave;wasn*t h ere. The ju ry >17 ,Y heard* i t . '.;v v ; ' ^ *,^ C '! "7 rv;''V ('/-x ^ T 18 . : W 19 . *,, * 1 20 . 2? ' ** ^ MR.MUSGRAVEj X've read th e,o p en in g statem en t, Mr. * Carr. ' /.-V^ -i vs . -*1 . , . . . THE COURT: \I heard',the opening statem en t, gentlemen.1 * ^ t' ^ , T- " . ,, 7' * 't , ;V > ,L * ^ % V. ^ r ^, I know th a t i t w as-said, \ X. p re v io u sly ru le d that* th e re Was such 22 v an^ adm ission "of counsel . ,\ v' - ; 1 \.2 3 > V -24 *: ^J '.-`j , J * ' 1 V 'r fi \ . n" , ,, , * , _ " ' ''> ` `.i . MR.; MUSGRAVE:\/I'm. just^ continuing to make iny reco rd , ^ ' -i ,, *.' your Honor. vr ^ - * f +' a ^ j v, tr ^ .-jJ .v ! - ./' *:'L ^,, " FOBM ,,1Lt 1 4 B ; A E N G A D C O ..B A Y O N N E , N .J. 07001 vt-.* 22 THE/COURT: R ig h t., No, I understand t h a t . I j u s t wanted to m ^ e the re co rd c le a r on t h a t . / I w ill admit 1301 and 1301a over o b je c tio n . \/; - / ,. MR.' CARR: Your Honor, I 'd lik e to know,from counsel whether o r not i t is Monsanto's p o s itio n th a t ..this tank car did not contain ' -- i f they are s t i l l denyingthat this, tank car ; `. - ; ' _ Y ` *\ . ' "*- 1 ^ contained 45 p a r ts p er b i l l i o n 2 ,3 ,7 ,8 TCDD? .. MR. MUSGRAVE; Your Honor, I have made an o b je c tio n , to Mr. C a rr's statem ent as to h is re p re s e n ta tio n as to an */ /. V' ; /'* H adm ission, and t h a t i s my 'o b je c tio n ; \ %. V\_j / \ w :;vC. , , ,. " " -v. . . J kV V;- ' . * . ~ * >c , v V *' ' V MR..CARR* I 'd . lik e to know, whether ,or n o t Monsanto "t - Y, , ;lV y ` 1 ; i s now backs ay ihg th a t th e re wafc: not: 45 parts* p e r b i l l i o n 2 ,3 ,7 ,8 TCDD in t h a t'ta n k car? x >^i^* y ^'-A^:M\ ' " ; `S ' j . ; 4'j - -W - ^ t * l ; i r- , MR> MSGRAVEi/O bject :to c o u n se l's-q u e stio n in g ; in -- t h i s fash io n , your Honor/. !-This i s h o t -- I am n o t a w itn ess ' on th stan d . I have made my .o b jectio n in accordance w ith th e law, and counsel i s now: a re you challen g in g my o b je c tio n , - Mr. Carr? : : . v '; . /' /_ - ^ .\\,'/" : THE COURT: A ll .rig h t; ^ y V ' / \ -1 1- ` **. * ' ', MR. MUSGRAVE: I t 's , been o v e rru le d , Mr, C arr. - - r ^THE COURT: ' Gentlemen, w e 'll deal w ith t h i s la te r* . W e'll deal w ith t h i s l a t e r . Mr. C arr; you may proceed. *. ' MR. CARR: I have no fu rth e r/ q u estio n s O f t h i s w itness your Honor. %- ^ ^ . 23 1 THE COURT: Mt.-Musgrave. . 2 . % -MR.'`IflJSjSRAyE'$*%;T$anK you,, s i r , > 3 '^-^C ^I^IC A TIO N ^ 4 BY MR. MUSGRAVE: V \ 5 . Q' * Mr, Park, I 'd f i r s t l i k e to ask you a .q u e stio n 'a b o u t - 6 th is e x h ib it th a t Mr,. Carr j u s t questioned you about,, t h i s . ' 7' 8 9 P l a i n t i f f 1s^E xhibit 1302!! J ; \. A k Yes, .V; _V / / *' - - " ~ . ' - . ' i'* ' , -\ t , ' i V * J 41 Q . Now,' is. th e re any, in d ic a tio n on there-, s i r , as to wheiji ; 10 , . il. 12 13 14 .th a t sample th a t. was .ap p aren tly .te s te d by,someone -and analyzed J1 * f -- J,^ . J * v .-' 2J',. ` . . !f I . ... by someone as to when 1 t was. manufa c tu re d ? -' *>" ' A. No.,.. I don* t see )& 7 <. date; *-b fir. ;t Q And d id you understand Mr. Carr to re p re se n t th a t th i$ 1 \ T* * 1^ j & f- ^1 f *7, *' i ^' -data had been obtained from: an a n a ly sis -done by. th e Midwest / - 15 Research I n s titu te ? , ' -7, > 16 . 17 A . '"Yes, . _ ; ;vT'vy , ' /*^ .v _ - .. MR, CARR:. ..The e x h ib it c le a r ly , shows ,' i f counsel * - 18 i s n ' t aware o f i t , the* d ata regarding, th e .dioxin co n ten t came S 19 20 , `'21. * ,.22" 23 ` *24' from Dow Chemical C o m p a n y . MR. HUSGRAVE; V That's p re c is e ly my. p o in t, Mr. C arr, 'but I b e l i e v e 'i t was re p resen ted by you,. Mr . C a r r , t h a t th is . '1 > '' f ^ ^ ` * *` v-* - /came' from the Midwest Research I n s t i t u t e . ' ' MR. CARR:... C an 't you read , Counsel? I t says on the e x h ib it. .V- / ' v* =. , ' < J -J*' / PEN GAD C O ., BAYO N N E, N .J, I. ... 24 3 4 ,5 - '6 -7 - - .8 19 -/lO ' , 11, 12 13 , 14 15 ,, 16 >J ` *- 17 . .,,IS 19 -- J 20 2l ' ,22 \ .23 ' 24 MR. MUSGRAVE; I was under th e assumption t h a t y o u ' c o u ld n 't read* Mr. C a rr /s in c e ' you have m isrepresented i t . / ; / * ' ^ * 'a F ^ - . ^ < Q * Does i t in d ic a te th at- th is d a t a / Mr,. Park, came from th e Midwest"Research I n s titu te ? \ CARR: i t su re .d b e s . 1It- came'from- the- Dow ~ - MR'. MUSGRAVE: tic. Carr your Honor, may I proceed w ith my exam ination w ithout Mr. C arr t e s tif y in g o r .attem pting to t e s tif y ? -You want tb g e t up on th e .stand and be sworn? -THE COURT:jJ\ i `,don*t. b eliev e' t h a t 's w h'at's happening. You may proceed w ith-your, q u estio n in g . ^ \. ^ -V v S'' - ./? Vy ' '' *' MR. . CARR: 1 1lii ,be ''g la d \to ;>Mr/ - M u s g ra v e /' ^ - MR. MUSGRAVE: . Your Honor,;may I proceed w ithout Mr. * V 1 :>' v / Carr in terru p tin g -:m'e?'1 . 1r; \ r -;y / - / ?-5-V.' /rV/^!I /.* v- *;/ .-' , - V ' -^ THE COURT:/.-I, Jus.t/;to ld -y o u you.-ceuld,proceed. _/ , ' *t ^ f" V i * * * -v ^ * 1 L . f c * f Q v Does the document in d ic a te , Mr. -P ark, th a t th is ainalysis was performecl by "th e l>Iidwest; Research I n s titu te ? - A As Iw o u ld read i t , t h e r e 's a fo o tn o te a f t e r th e words a n a ly tic a l d a ta ; t h e r e 's a fo o tn o te r and down a t the, bottom i t says, d ata supplied.^by E. R. F r e ite r . o f Dow Chemical ; Company, Midland*; Michigan in a vpersonal l e t t e r to ,Dr. W ill iam: Jameson-of T racor Jitcp,^'-'" -, ",v. ; Q " . So i t would appear oh th e face o f t h i s . t h a t th e / analysis;w as;dorih by somebody a t Dow o f t h e i r own product? j" A " .Yes/'"'"'!' , - *- - ' gtz II MHOJ ZOOtO' *f*W*3NNOiye- "03 0V!>N3d 1 Q And then se n t to Dr. W illiam Jameson o f T racor J i t c o , 2 right? 3 A Yes. 4 Q And i s th e re any inform ation as to what method was 5 used to analyze this? 6 A Not th a t I see. 7 Q S o 'th is i s a re p o rt o f d ata by Dow, i t ' s n o t by an 8 independent lab of any kind? 9 A Yes. 10 Q Arid th is was re p o rte d to -- o r p u rp o rts to be a 11 l e t t e r from th e Department o f H ealth, Education and W elfare, 12 i s n ' t th a t co rre c t? 13 A T h a t's r i g h t . 14 Q' Now, is th e D epartm ent'of H ealth, Education, and 15 W elfare d if f e r e n t than th e E n v iro n m en tal'P ro tectio n Agency? 16 A Yes, two e n tir e ly se p a ra te independent agencies. 17 Q And th e knowledge th a t HEW may have had from th is may 18 be d if f e r e n t from what EPA had? 19 A Yes, 20 Q And do you know th a t the Department o f H ealth, Educa i 21 tio n ,a n d W elfare d o e s n 't have o th e r knowledge as to th e potent! 22 a c tu a l co n ten t o f d ioxin, v ario u s isomers o f dioxin in any 23 c h lo rin a te d phenols, in clu d in g 2,4 dichlorophenol? 24 A They may w ell have had a d d itio n a l knowledge. ^O7.7O'TJZi??j" 33 r ,j? ;.() ptj je i>GTTc l- augix r ,7 &z * cov,,xcm * oP1 - - qo TQ 15 ;;b*;*c nT$ egou pmrp?:?: t r ;'4 ;, xpyy prr,,* -;>'Xx, s ypi ch&Q't: ay CP# 3 30 n z ' ' e5*au a gy^sr. '&o ss1r,c* g r z r.:*' .?o j b :, a [ jir r X z.tt <tq . zpxz- eoe l X!rr C O r*C: l &p e '.e ^TT ~~ q f.a c or. ? y r s r.prn-y n p JC -l.v x . * (;' j-jc, o r, VjB X : "o ? coy q pqsf cp*x c p k oye; 1 11 0/-A- r l ~'\ o p '] c n y o T i * l'yr' (^r ;s*YAff y r j ^ e c r c t s q io u'y: o:ro ffoa LO liti U e r , rz'g'X P O e ptA S p a q iZT-.j? 39 ^!jX 2epS31 t'IAil; S '^^S .qVf^^tjL I 12 e o arji s p r * f> m re -? K r o 1 crj'-"7o 'c to /qrsr pxro*q*^rV:p r.r.o y | N i-iiiKi"' PI-TTiiYyoO-;zVVAAEE11 ;Vi J.;'i ? */- 'ynoin* yx* '*P'--- fxsrx-yns$q r i zier /boJ in# :o I' .oa? .vt*1; v'X ooy irr MZ:xoyql71 i3 3 J-'QII8VX*CTO fXI0A8 XJJf CJC* p \y r - 5 *O<-Z*T I''15- ;iT ^r*" &r ; /-"*-]3r,: U ryr, o p T -r-^ e r? MpTSv?i?o en $\rx. j .y /ro iu ^ e y o rr o c'.; vq y z p r o r r 0 pirq v c c n s y K^a^.y^r^Z1 y r; { 3 rso u}^ " ir-? -:> bxcovi e[ri^ octTes.ST.X* rx.y,HTc:;1 w y Cj-s? prrzcjGu T's allor.r ;p<r n: d yr> b,,r,A':. r:rre;r epe .iiTy'Z- ` J7& !V3Tq ??rjq etrr 8 r>7'7' CpfZMMrp\' pT A p.r cVbT; A0i-- notion15 r op7 * '.i*:o pmiqtp y^ ?b:'C Ho y` rptuT ATJr , - v .f 1^ - - - ** ps r.*Tv q70/2'S cod-r.M.MO07: ilo rpqyct:cj npzx npX V vuq p:rr rri.* vorq \:-a epsp 7P-x ya tpm OAyqv:;r:.. K< * j^5p' 6 Xfiry "^`-n.'S. > (`iiJOi; os S/, or ::p# OCpr, * 'T'J Xor;v Cyx.f ;r 1 E x hibit 1302 th a t Dow performed any t e s t s fo r th e c o n te n t o f 2.. monos, d i s ^ ' o r i s o m e r s ? , ; ;, 3 \ A; No, i t t o e s n 't . 'P ' 4 Q And he same.would be tru e as to th e furans t h a t a r e . 5 * shown, below," would i t 'n o t ? v 6 A > T h at'b co rre ct.. . * .7 7 / -, ,, '7 ` Q Now w ith re g ard to P l a i n t i f f .18 E x h ib it .1301, Mr, Park 8 t h i s I s t h i s ; c h a r t . / ^ 7 9 . A Counsel, can I ask you a question? 10 > Q I don11 think, t h a t *8 probably a p p ro p ria te , Mr. P a rk ,, U; a t th is p o in t 1 With reg ard to 1301, do ybu have t h a t th e re , 12 ' Mr. Park? 13 Yes, I do. ' ,' J .* ^ ' t '1 {i ju--.**;>5'i .tr;>%t, *;-*, . ->-1 >*v. k \ \i.r/ I \ , -> >: v * V ^5.7V ` ^'' 14 -. Q . Now the re fe re n c e ,,to GATX 1 2 9 3 2 ,'which Mr, C arr . - . ' -;/* * : - *. 1S'-- - - . - J . - ' it f - * a-- i .- :V- v' j ^ ,, > - ^- *A Lb s . J * in d ic a te d to you i s the tan k c a r - th a t was in q u estio n in th e 16 Sturgeon s p i l l h e '.a got- 45 up: here,.under *the ;tetr& column, *, - . '< ' 7 .. l|ev- \ .1* ',>` ' ; v ' i " - `7 > i 17 ' does he not? j 77 ` - . .. _ 18 A Yes. V l-- . .^7;7 ` ; 7 V/ ' 19 Q And a t o t a l dioxin, o f 824? f ^ \ r 20 ; , A Y esi: / -'V " ` k 1 21 Q Is` th a t c o rre c t? 22 ,A -' Yes.' :` `7 v. / . / , - t ` > ' r . - ^ ^ 23 - Q And I ;b e lie v e he j us t i n d i c a t e d to you, d id he n o t , ; 24' th a t his go t th e to t a l dioxih except f o r the 45 t e t r a from Exhibijt 1 14 1142? 2 A - Yes * ' 3 Q A ll r i g h t . Now, E x h ib it 1142 shows 34 p a r ts p e r 4 b illio n , doesn't it? 5 A Yes. 6 Q Under the t e t r a column, and then a r e p lic a te 40 and 7 41, and down h ere I th in k i t ' s 36 and 44, i s n 't th a t co rre c t? 8 A Yes 9 Q And do you know whether a n a ly tic a l chem ists when 10 they do r e p lic a te s , re p e a ts o f th e same type sample, and they 11 g e t d if f e r e n t numbers th a t a re c lo se to g e th e r, w hether they 12 average those in th e re g u la r course o f doing a n a ly tic a l work?, 13 A I'm so rry , I J u s t d o n 't know. 14 Q A ll r i g h t .Bu't iiVn a`n-y-; evyen' t, i t h're r e 's 'yn.o 45, in th is 15 Column 4, i s there? ' t \' ` 16 A T hat's correct, there is hot. r. . 17 Q Now, Mr. Carr a lso questioned you about -- i f X can 18 g e t th is to stay up h ere - - th ese samples down here in v o lv in g 19 what he has denominated as th e DCP, . dlchlorophenol s p i l l . 20 A Yes. 21 Q Bo you r e c a ll th a t? 22 A Yes. 23 Q And asked q u estio n s about the EPA's knowledge as to 24 the dioxin co n ten t th a t may have been r e f le c te d by th e v ario u s ; 29 t e s tin g on those samples f r o m th a t s p i l l? You r e c a l l t h a t , /'2 d o n ' t yOU? ' l,';'-rV '' ' Y" ' 3 ' 4. ' 1i A l. , Y es,yes; . ^ y y A - - * - v -. " A - ^ i* v * ' ' ^ rL,*-1 , s. * ^ -* ' ' ' Q " - And suggested ;th t th e EPA had no knowledge as to 5 dioxin content involved in th a t m aterial th a t may'have been 6 s p ille d ? Do you r e c a l l t h a t , s ir ? Y ` : 7 v y A - I 'th in k s o , yea. ; ' . . 8 MR, MUSGRAVE: . Do you have P l a i n t i f f 's . T r ia l E x h ib it 1 / 9 1 1113, Mr. .C a rrf Is i t up h e r e 'o r do you have i t ? -^ . io ; /';AV \ " ;MR. CARR: A rey o u askingm e i f I have 1118? . M ; *: A ^Hr ^ m u s g r a v e - Yes. y ` ; % -'j v- / A:. ^ IT ' MR CARR; To my knowledge' I d o n 't. ' 13 j i "t 14 Y y\5 - V. HR. MUSGRAVE:^ I don' t; th in k you1ve g o t i t there* -MRY CARR: I f you, give me d a te .ox otherw ise id e n tif y . - ' ' c'y'i. ` "Y \ i f rv ! ; ' ` 'il` / ^ X 1 1 : i t , I might, be a b le t o . help ^youY- Y Y::Y Yly' A-' y - 16 A ' " J7 -_Y - ,18 ` ' MR.fMUSGRAVE:- . I t ' s the^Monsanto jprees re le a s e dated .' Y y Y - Y Y 'Y y Y'." Jun 8th , 1979 th a t you p u t into, evidence, Mr. C arr. .; . MR./"CARR: OK, a l l .rig h t y Ai hava^our- copy o f i t i f i9 yo u 'd lik e to .u s e i t . I t ta l k 3 about .th e OSHA -- a re you . ; ; .20 ta lk in g about the, OSHA one?. . y , A. ' ' 2' 1<. ;MR; sMUSGRAVE:Y Uh-huh. I t might tspeed th in g s up. . 22' r 'j ,;A MR.ACARR:;;. Sure, i/Y ' -;A';. r, Y -* t 23 - - : A / ; _ A. Aa A y - v v ' ;;'' y A y . y j A-A'-'* y A ;!/' *; '* ' Q Now, handing you w hat-s been marked as P l a i n t i f f 's 24' E xhibit 1118, t h a t 's alread y been I d e n tif ie d and.Introduced in te PEN CAD C O ., BA VO N N E. N .J. . J `* r- ' , , , ' * > ' >' \ -, 4 .^' ' '* ,. L 1 J * t s_ *- 1 e v id e n c e a s . p r e s s , r e l e a s e m ade b y M o n san to w ith r e g a r d t o th e .2 3- s p i l l , a n d ,d o e s i t n o t i n d i c a t e i n t h e r e t h a t OSHA a p p a r e n t l y . s' , V i' - ' to o k a - - o r c la im s to h av e ta k e n a p o rtio n o f a s p ille d 4 m a te ria l an d h ad a fin d in g o f 300 p a r ts p e r b illio n o f d io x in ? 5 MR, CARR: C o u n s e l, s o t h e r e c o r d c a n b e c o r r e c t . 6 - t h a t 's n o t a p r e s s r e l e a s e . T h a t's a r e l e a s e to th e e m p lo y e es 7 ; o f M o n san to K ru m m rich p l a n t . 8 M R, MUSGRAVE : - W e l l , I h a v e i t i n a p r e s s r e l e a s e f o r n 9 . to o , M r. C a r r, i f y o u w a n t to s e e i t i io : M R .'C A R R : X k n o w t h a t . / h MR. MUSGRAVE; Y o u 'v e a l r e a d y p u t t h a t i n e v i d e n c e 12 t o o . J ` 1, . 13 M R . C A R R : I k n o w t h a t , b u t t h i s i s n o t a p r e s s 14 15 16 ' ,17 / r e l e a s e . , T h is, is ! w h a t th e em p lo y ees w ere t o ld . 1- * 1 V / 1 t (- _ Q , T h is w as p u t o u t p u b l i b a l l y j to th e .e m p lo y e e s ` , \\ V V* ' ' ' \ / . 1 - ^ ,v , > ' A nL `w \ . h . / v ---- 1 A Y es; a p p a re n tly r ig h t.' ^ ^ ' ' th o u g h ? . ' * j- - ,-.\j * .* * * ( - ,, Q A n d 1t h e r e w as a p r e s s : r e l e a s e / to th sam e e f f e c t , M r, 1 8 - P a r k . Did y o u k n o w t h a t ? :, 19 20 ; A . I d o n 't r e c a l l t h a t . ' \ * 1 *' N' ' X' r "` : * ^ Q A nd i n a n y ev en t,O S H A h a d t h i s in f o r m a tio n , d i d n 't 21 ' t h e y ? -' 22 - A ' Y e s . . ' -- ; ;; ; 23 ,24 - Q / A n d t h e i n f o r m a t i o n t h a t OSHA r e p o r t e d t o M o n s a n to w as m ade p u b lic to I t s em p lo y ees? PENGAO C O ,. B A YO N N E, tN*J, ** k ^ \l, " N : 'S' v- L4 \ "' *` -^V_^.1'' f'I-,,AUW*. ^ ^?/t ' >~fcl ' 1 ^ `i lr _ '. ,, ^ - : \J/ ` * - -- '; . * ti I 31 .. ; - t y y; ^'XaVS ;r ; v\ - * .. `^-v :1 ,; ' I . -1- . ;w- -- a -.y* / '. - '-V v , - :;::. y ``; ; \ y - ^ . y \ *t . -I1 . . j1 Q : , VAhd (', was p a w( ;*1`*' ,, r t/"p--JfT'"j'a press " ' ,h release, `f \ waan11 it? , ->- 0 1t; , 3 .< ; T . / '' A?'V''.i'.V`.y-Y1-^a-.':<'-,,v.',,.-1.A, V. ' v "V ,< . ' V.; /..'1^.S' ,. ..:...........'. ^ -V' '-- -` _ ' , ;V 4~ Q Now do you fluapcct-Chat OSHA,. i f they had some knowl-; "S' , i ; s . s dg about th ir being 300 p a r ts vp e r b i l l i o n o f dioxin in th a t , , 6 th a t th is might have been;:something th a t they would have passed 11 h ` 'i1 '4!ir1 ' ; ' . 7- on to th e EPA o r th e EPA:would have had a v a ila b le to them ;; ! ; *. *r V* s''/" through,"th ese p u b lic announcements? 1v. t ^* . ' ' V. / '9\x s ``^ V: v ' / / '' tr .X ' '1 ^ ' MR., CARR: 300: p a r t s ; p e r b i l l i o n 6f t e t r a , n o t t o t a l , . . " A1 .1 1 * "'dioxin' ; ''"Cv.ovunsel. -J* ^ ^ J -- ' ' -. `/ ' i , ** .. '' -!:' K - , t 1} \ ' 1.?'.'. . .v , MR. iflJSGRAVE: Mr. C arr, I im derstand t h a t . I d i d n 't ,; ' 1 s' - . \/13 ^say ' ? v C v^-' '/i V : " .. `` \'s, ` : -1' . / 14V MR; CARR:^ WallV y o u jsaid ^d lo x ln though. You d id n 't: " 1\'. *,VwT J ;^ ~115- i say 14*A te tra d io k in , you * ^^ s*a^i'd' "/"dJ"\'i'*o' x-in , r' y; , A*', '-1 ' ^ . *Ok. t'' ' `' j6 ", - * MR, MUS6RAVE: nYotir >Hohori fmay vl "proceed w ith my ^\ s. 'j.i \ '0s0' "v: 4:'\17 exam ination? Do you, havis anjobj e c tio n 'to imakev; Mr. Carr?.; * 1i4t Z V:` ,. r ' 18' 1 ?'l-: V A*MR^;-A*CSA'RR: L^1 <-?*\ ^' ** ,r Vi %(f x ? : ; '. *^ Ar! 1. I1 / PCN G AO CO.'. B A Y O N N E . N .J ,!: o'" " .'`1?;*.,,A-;' - THE,COURT:1v I th in k h is o b je c tio n is , w ell tak en . - 0 ' iO*:z- > 3 ''20 - ^: .Could `you " rephrase the f question? ; " '*' $ '^ v `'I j. > j t. 1- 1 s: * , V ;. . . . - 21 * .- . ; MR.,-MJSGRAVE: : My Statement,., your Honor, was 300 p a rts . r r,, r - . . ` 22 "per- b i l l ion "of d io x in . , . J * / ' `` A r. ' k 1 ' ' - ' ? /** ' ", . 2 3 ! MR. CARR: T h a t's c o r re c t, and th e re fe re n c e i s to. . 11 .j r ; t e t r a / \.. - a V ' - ; . - 2 4 ' % v'J ^ _ - . y - . ; - 1 ' - ^ ' *'= 1; ` .- '' ' ;''' ;.rr` ' ".si, 1 -| ' - '' .''i .1 f -1 1 ; : MR, MUSGRAVE: M d .you'r e d trc c tin g me th a t I must eay 2 ; tetra? Ia hat crrectY jyo^ ,, ` 'i, .' *. - jr/'' '*i\. , i - ' ' . ' , ". 3, . Tha:ls corract.;, I think th a t' a .accurate 4 ; Q - 300 p a rta p e r 'b i l l i o n o f t c t r a . Now, do .you under - 1 ; 7; v . . *-V7t`7,,7f,' ~ ; 1- ^ . 7 `5 sta n d th a t was made p u b lic as we j u s t p re v io u sly discussed? 6 7 A . ' i f I 'k m isreading t h is t h i r d paragraph o r does i t --7 / s y .S O p r c e n t/o f 'th e d io d n d e te c te d w a s .-8 ' \ q ; Yes , i t says.5 0 p ercen t was 2 ,3 ,7 ,8 .7 ". \r;7 ;',;MRv'>CARR: "That '-8*.c o rre c t. :*7^' ^ io7^ 7- \ k y -Yeah; okay-. /7 7 ^ V `7 V-- 7>'7 '-7 ? *, 1, >f 11 \ > ^-lidw /l^dbn't'b'elleye th a t th is press 12 re le a s e , your Honor, says th a t^ 300 p a r ts p e r - b illio n is ' a l l . 13 ; t e t r a . I t .says t h a t 750 p e rc e n t o f th e dioxin" d e te c te d was ' 7 1/ 7 ^*v `' ,V; 7 /- . ( - . _ . . 4 2 ,3 ,7 ,8 . : Now.do you tiavejsome o th e r inform ation, Mr. C arr, is 7/ where i t says t h a t th e :;30QLfparts p e r b i l l i o n th e y 'r e ta lk in g , -' *' , '. ' -V `' ^ f ' \ * i 1 -if ^ ^ n \ ; ^ 1~ '* ^ ' 16" v' about i s l vt e t t i ? ' v^7 7 ' v , r' :\7' ` ^j .7' 17 : ^ 7 7 ' 7 : ;.. . 7V t ^ - \ `yA* iV" ' ^ MR. CARR; Yee 77we;hav7exhibits / in evidence to t h a t '7 - '- 7 '' r , ,,,} < * tj "77- ,;7 7 .^ - 18 . e f f e c t . -7 v^'-77 /,> ,>7 ' '.-7- - l^ v :77 v- 7 \ 7 . 'V -7 :\ r ^ ' U . 7 ": 19 7 : MR. ;MSGRVE7 m ake an y d i f 20 21 7 f e r e n c e , a s y o u s a y , M r .'C a r r ,^ b e c a u s e i t d o e s n 't . My p o i n t ' "7 " *t 7 7 ' -.;V H 7 7 v , i 7 i \ ` . / : - '7^ i s t h i s ,-.Mr . 7 ' ' ... r77 ; ' 7 ** *... 7 22 MR, CARR: J u s t so th e re co rd i s s t r a i g h t . , ' ; " _> 7 , . " 7 77 ' 'r' 'V,,7 - ^ 7 J 7 , . ` J- 23 ' Q . ^ p o i n t i s t h i s ; M r; P a r k , ' T he in f o r m a tio n a b o u t : 24 ; 30 p a r ts p er .b illio n , b f .d io x in , and l e t *a fo r th e moment say . > 33 > .h 2 3 4, 5 6 I t i s t e t r a , was made p u b lic , w a sn 't i t ? A Yes. , Q And OSHA a t l e a s t f e l t they knew about i t , d i d n 't they? A Yes. Q Now, do you su sp ect t h a t OSHA would have passed th is 7 inform ation on to th e EPA i f they f e l t i t was o f some s ig n i 8 ficance? 9 A They c e r ta in ly could have. 10. Q And do you f e e l t h a t i t i s in f a c t p o ssib ly th a t th 11 EPA would have seen th is inform ation sma p lace o r been made 12 ` aware o f th is inform ation th a t was made public? 13 A ^ I t c e r ta in ly i s . , 14 Q Now do you know whether the EPA - - w e ll, l e t me FORM I L ` 24 0 15 rep h rase t h a t . Mr. C arr asked you about th e EPA coming in and lfOt 16 j stopping shipments and th a t type o f th in g . You remember him BUTON NE. N .J. 07002 rso* . 17 1 examining you about t h a t , saying ,th a t th e EPA had th e power o r 2 uz 1ft 18' d id they have th e power to come in a n d s to p shipments and 19 *- - * *. -> t ' w o u ld n 't they sto p shipments i f they f e l t . t h a t th e re was a o. , ^ x ' ' -* - * ozw: 20 hazardous le v e l o f a chemical in , l e t ' s say, th a t met th e 21 * ' v *t. -."Ja.. ;* x, , , ; requirements, the reporting requirem ents"of Section 8(e) th a t 22 we've been ta lk in g about,, th a t they would come in and stop th a t 23 shipment? Do you r e c a ll him asking you about th a t? - 24 ' A . Yes. 34 1 Q / Now do you know w hether th e EPA ever com in. and sto p .2 a shipment.'from th e Kruramrich, P la n t o f i t s c h lo rin a te d phenols? 3 A , I t 's never happened as f a r a s I'm aware. 4 . Q To your knowledge? Now, I d o n 't want to spend a l o t 5 o f tim e going through th e se v ario u s samples t h a t Mr. C arr p u t * 1 - '' *,ft - * 4' ' _ 1 6 up on P l a i n t i f f s E x h ib it 1301, Mr. Park, but. you did recognize 7 whan you went through th e se t h a t in many In stan c es th e re was 8 more than o n e .a n a ly sis o f a sample th e re was sometimes thre 9/ o r four analyses, is th a t c o rre c t? . 10 A T h a t's r i g h t . . ' 11 Q And were you a b le to t e l l x^hether Mr. C arr was ta k in g 12 th e h ig h est; a n a ly s is when he would s e le c t one o f th e se to p u t 13 up on th e board? t - 14 \ A .Y es, I n o ticed , that'w h en th e re \jere more th an one 15 a n a ly s is o f a .g iv e n sample, t h a t he s e le c te d th a t th a t r e s u lte d 16 in th e h ig h e st t o t a l number o f d io x in s . 17 ` Q And'db you know anything, Mr, Park, about In te rfe re n c e s 18 and how th a t word I s used by a n a ly tic a l chem ists in connection r- " 1 1 1V ( p. ^ ' j- 19 w ith re p o rtin g t h e i r d ata when they^analyze something w ith th e 20 GCMS and those types o f a h a ly tic a l methods .th a t they use? V. V..-' / 'J 21 A My knowledge i s fuzzy. I th in k t h a t i t means th a t 22' the a n a ly s is ' i s d if f ic u l t , ^because 1o th e r '/ - ; !"lk j us t don11. know 23 . t h a t much, about i t . ,; 24 Q A ll, r i g h t . You j u s t don't know what th a t means. A ll : PEN GAD C O .. B A rO N N E , N .J. 35 r i g h t . Row, Mr, Park, in r e g a r d 'to th a t tank car s p i l l sample, th e one th a t w e're *ta lk in g about, GATX 12932 -- A Yes. Q Now you, o f course, know th a t th e to t a l t e t r a content t h a t Monsanto discovered in i t s a n a ly sis o f th a t re se rv e sample was re p o rte d to th e EPA? A I think th a t's rig h t, Q And are you aware o f the f a c t th a t th e EPA was also given samples a t th e ir req u est o f the reserv e sample from the tank car? A , I think I can -- I re c a ll th a t, yes. Q And they did t h e i r own te s tin g o r had someone a t t h e i r re q u e st do t h e i r own te s t i n g , i f you w i l l , on those p o rtio n s o f the reserve sample? A I can remember th a t there.w as q u ite a b i t o f co n tac t w ith th e EPA, and as I r e c a l l , sh arin g o f Inform ation. Q And th e EPA would have been w ell a b le , had they wanted to , o r had th ere been any concern in th e ir mind, to t e s t fo r to ta l dioxin content, not only for te tra s , i s n 't th at co rrect, sir? A Q ' \ * - ; V/ YaB- ,, ,; r (* r * ; 1 l * *, . - , ^t T. And do you know whether they did o r they d id n 't? A I Ju st d o n 't remembers r . : ; [Vv- Q Okay. In connection w ith t h a t sample te s tin g did EPA -f i l ' "V 'ut I ` . S -S' 4 ]" 36 ,,jr V.-t'i vl .1 ; to your knowledge a f t c r they h a d .done t h e l t own te s tin g fo r . 2--` . w h atev er by whomever th sy s e le c te d and-got whatever r e s u lt^ .3 they fe lt,w e re s ig n ific a n t, to your knowledge did they stop 4 Monsanto from s e llin g incom m erce OCP crude? s"' A . ; Not,;to^tny knowledge. t ^ , , 6 Q Now, Mr. P ark /co m in g back to th e to p ic o f th ese S ection ", ? 1t , T L 1 -J1. ' ^. ,,1 " ; ^ ' ',7 ' 8(e) m eetingsl;N ow . your r o le in those; m eetings was w hat, s ir ? .8 A j , A' `X would ad v isc th e group on what the law s a id , what 9 the law required, and I kept minutes o f the meeting, and th a t's k, j - T,`. * \ c^ , ' m< f (^ " r\ * ' ,i i ^ /i * * . '\ ' -, , i6 `.about i t . v .> ` *. -\ ./ ,-U - J - 1.h! , "^ ^J' '4 . t *L ^ *1 * ' ^- ** ' 11 Q A ll ir i g h t . \ You, would advise th o th e r members .o f , th e 12 committee as to your in te r p r e ta tio n o f th e law as a lawyer? 13 , A T h a t's r i g h t . . \ v \ . V ? , L. 14 Q ' And app1y i t ,,to th e f a c tu a l inform ation; t h a t you were 15 given and; th e opinions, th a t yix were given by th e o th e rs w ith '> .K ' ' J " "r ' 1 J - ' i' ' t ' "s', - * , ,' 16 re g ard to c e r t a i n /f a c t s ? ; V .A, j? . . a ' . Ydsv'. ; /,: ^ ; - " . fv 18^. Q And you a ls o kept th e m in u te s , I th in k you said? 19 20 . 21 22" " " - A -jYesi ' 'J _,, " v- * . * ' * " V J ; V,' >,, ", \ *' . - r r, Q ^ A ll r i g h t . Now,"^you I , th in k s we 'v afalr^ d y e s ta b lis h , k_- ^ ^ . - y t K * ? 3 . s - ,* T'-^ ' * - i ; 11 ^ j C ' * *'* t J i ; * - j' : are not,fo zm erly educated in chem istry o r toxicology o r mad ie in '` ^ ., ' , -" . .J * l '.': TM ' tl'v **'' r&\+- ; - '*J--- ' ^n*' , isn ' t th a t .correct, sir? ^ v^O s.,:v i ` ;v: - 23 / ; A That.''s ' c o r r e c t.. *''-> x l- ^ 24 j Q Now in keeping th e se minutep would you r e ly upon your 37 1 a b ility , to understand and tak e down what was s a id a t th e m eetings 2 to type-up the minutes?; 3 A I re lie d on what oth ers said a t the meeting* 4 - Q 1 understand th a t. 5 A Yeah.'' ' 6 Q But when you s a t down to type up the m inutes o r have 7 typed up the minutes o f .the m eeting, would you, r e ly upon your 8 .a b ility to accurately, r e c a ll and record in note form exactly 9 what was s a id , th e way i t was sa id by. these people th a t have 10 . th e e x p e rtis e in th e se areas t h a t you d id n 't? M A No. - ' >/ " ` 1' 12 Q- A ll r i g h t . W ell, when you typed up th ese m inutes, , 13 what would you do then? . M A I would, o f course, I took notes during the meetings , is and then my p ra c tic e was and i s to I w ould,type up what I 16 f e l t X remembered and what my n o tes In d ic a te d about th e meeting .17 and c irc u la te ,;th a t to o th e rs , to everyone e ls e who had atten d ed is th e m eeting... Those in d iv id u a ls then would make a p p ro p ria te 19/ c o rre c tio n s where I . had :mis s ta te d something o r where I had perhaps 20 n o t f u lly understood something th a t one o f th e e x p e rts, i f you. 21 w i l l , had s-tated.* F ^T>'hey1wt -o*uzid3 c"o1,r'r/ye1-Tc;t th m inu^te*s, send them ,1 22 , back to me, and then I would in co rp o rate a ll, those c o rre c tio n s / 23 and then p u b lish th e minuts - in >fihal;; form. 24 Q A il r i g h t , s i r .; .And as^a...atter, of- f a c t , do you have I BAYONNE* N.J. 1 P l a i n t i f f ' s E x h ib it 1298 up t h e r e , sir ? 2 A No, I don't* 3 Q Well, l e t me see I f I c a n 't fin d it* (Pause) 4 Handing you w h at's been prev io u sly marked as P l a i n t i f f 's Exhibit 5 1298, th a t i s ;a copy on the top o f your n o tes from th e November 6 24, 1981 m eeting, i s th a t rig h t? 7 A T hat's correct* 8 Q And the n ex t two pages o f th a t e x h ib it a re your hand 9 w ritte n notes from which you would have prepared your f i r s t 10 d r a f t , i f you w ill? 11 A Yes* 12 Q And th e l a s t page o f th e e x h ib it, s i r , i s a memorandui 13 from Clayton C a llis to you d ated December 1 8 th , 1981? 14 A Yes. 15 Q And does i t n o t co n tain a suggestion fo r a change in 16 th e way you re p o rte d th e in fo rm atio n , Paragraph 3? 17 A Yes. 18 Q And th a t in fo rm atio n , Paragraph 3, i s te c h n ic a l in 19 n a tu re and deals w ith to x ic ity and th in g s th a t you d o n 't have 20 any e x p e rtise in , i s th a t co rrect? 21 A T h a t's r i g h t . V '* - V *' / * t wf v 22 Q And in f a c t , did.you amend your f i r s t d r a f t to r e f l e d 23 th e changes th a t -- i s i t Dr. C a llis o r i s th a t Mr. C a llis? 24 A I th in k i t 's Dr. C a llis . c . 39 > : ^n *k - 1 1 ' 1 fF -* v* ,, .c . - 1* * . 1 1 ;'lJ , ' ^ ' V- ' . " V b y-L * (7 JL 1 1 iy 1 Q That 0 r; C ailla had suggested? , i>` ' .. - k t"1 - u 2 ` ' , . A' Ys. w7 . ( 3 . Q And Dr. Call i s , was he member o f th is committee a t ' 4 th a t time? \ - 7.'' / *m/ `r * 1 >. * r - 5 . A^/. .' Yes/.h vas th D ire c to r of. Environmental O perations. 6 ;MR/CARR: This i s alread y an e x h ib it, Counsel. . I t ' s ", - . ; /V V 7 / --- 7 a7 ; !: , 7 7 V*' 7 -, a lre a d y in e v id e n c e . .\7 , " 7 ~7 7 r 7 '8' MR. MUSGRAVEr Which one i s i t , Mr. Carr? 9 - ; / ' .s' llR.vCARRi .'December 1 4 th ,1 9 3 1 . ' -, 10 /. MR. MUSGRAVE: You want to' give^ me th e e x h ib it - ' n number? . - s 7 -v. 7 . v - ^ ^ f . '' \2 MR/ CARRi .Oh, you want - - t h a t 's th e one y o u 're \ 13 ` j u s t r e f e r r in g to ,. 1298/ - 14 MR. MUSGHAVEV ; I'm /s o rr y , Mr. C arr, i t ' s d i f f e r e n t . 7 ' 15 u MR. CARRi T h e y 'r e `e x a c tly th e same, Counsel, e x a c tly - ' 16 ~ th e same., ` 7 7 `'7 V * 7 7'- \ i ^ .. _ /-17 / . MR. MUSGRAVE: - L et me.be. s u r e , -Mr. C arr. The e x h ib it ~18 ^ .have th a t you have marked t h a t -you *gave me i s 't h i s one r i g h t r .19 - h e r e , Document/ C03528./ That *a what you marked as. P la in tif f * s 20 : ?l " 22'" . -23/ - '7 ;-'. / v '" ^ 7 r \ 7 v " 7 ' /. 7 "MR./CARR: The. o th e r o n e -is th e re as w e ll, Counsel. #7 ^ J r ^- 7- 1^ . '7 * * -r * -- ,, h 7 y i had i t marked f i r s t and theh^X h a n d e d - ih th e o n e w ith th e n o t4is. .. *r - \ i : 3 f y;r; *m\s> " A ;This would have been my f i r s t d r a f t . 1 . ;. 24 . -MR, 'MUSGRAVE:- .' Yes'M&Bt'x :/W * ' ' ' \ ( -, r ; - . . . . !/:>? i ;> ^ i .. ,. - i* .`i Jr ^ ; i( i, ^ ;. 1 - . ` ' i( .i ' ' *' `" k f`rJ 5 , iL i> 'I ' " ?'*,L -i* ' , - ,l ' _ ?v' t_ j . ; - 1. ytv ;t- * 1.t1 .>t - * * i. ^* . - -. I FORM IL '-A B N E N G A D C O .. BA YO N N E. N .J. 07002 1 2 * not? 3: A 4 .. Q P l a i n t i f f ' s, E x h ib it 1298 i s your f i r s t d r a f t , i s i t Yesv -* 1* 1' -v A ll r i g h t ; : And a tta c h e d tp i t a re th e n o tss o f Dr, ' 5 ' CallIs suggesting a change; to the. th ird paragraph dealing with; 6 toxicity, is n 't th a tc o rre c t? ; '# T j * , \ A,; Y d sy : V- y .-,y ' y - : .7 8 ' . " Q . And Defendant 's E x h ib it; 882, which I; now hand y o u ,.; x can ybu id o n tify t h a t , s i r ? \ io.. A - ,Yes:.; This would b a t h e f i n a l d r a f t o f m inutes o f the 11 , ^veinber 24,; 1981 meeting in c o rp o ra tin g comments re c e iv e d from *X " "/ r * \ ,v' " J * > F* t "` T ^ ' i' ^ -t ~ ', *" ` _ i < *,, ^ i ,p J 12 '.Dr.. C a l l i s a n d o t h e r s , . r 'l . J 7 13; v Q A ll r i g h t . Now t h a t 's ati example o f the type - - ;7 ". ' J ' '-V- . . *'*. >- .*/.- . J ' ' r' ^. ' t, '^ 'L 14 o r example o f th e p ro cess' t h a t you went through to ensure th a t 15 your n o te ta k in g a c c u r a te ly .r e f le c te d what you took d o w nsince 16 v you d id n 't have th e e x p e rtis e and background, i s th a t c o r r e c t,. .. v 17 :.sir? , . y . -.-v `.- - '.'V/V - ' -yJ; ^; 18 r 19 20 ' 7.; `A ' .Yes.; V -.y ; y ''\ y y - 7 y ! y - 7 ' 1 / \ r.-. ; -S- J , \ r ; ' . ; .. \ l;` . . .. ` *, ? L ' ' , " V .. ` '. . ' ' Q Now, t h i s committee th a t was c o n s titu te d when someone ^^ *r 'S ** *> - '.* r, l ' ' - .i" y ''* ^( ' ,1 -,, would report.: t h e i r b e lie f; th a t th ere might be a; chemical o r 7 `21 ' m ix tu re,o f chemical th a t would p re se n t { s u b s ta n tia l r i s k o f - 22 \ 23 - >^ 24 in ju ry to h e a lth o r t h e .environment under 8(e) was comprised . ' kL 1' , ' . o f what persona? .. 7-, -*iV r^' rX ' /*'* t> ; fv.j i .; ;. j .v. ` '".V.-. V , Ut?T3 ''X - V'- ' : A The coosnittee o r group or- whatever . i t s e l f had th re e . '^ " . J - i 1- `''I ** * ^l . H j r ; 1W . ` L'* ^ Vi1 't*" .1--* ' .4 -1 1 *'* * ^ r tm 7 L \ r ^' r^ J " r -, h *; . . * , w, * * * ' % * * 'i A1j''*r'* . fl j J '.y y-".' ;* 'V ;j \ : \ :;4 n t, . `1 J *- ^ !v , ,J L 'T -y / ' ; ;: . - ; .u, `-J, -; ' `` . ; "J r tV; ^1 v . * v M ^ 1 ji 7 * ^^ . j , .- : - , - 1 1 - // " , -t - ,, *J* / *<7 , '7 +1 1 -.4 . :41 * 1 persons th a t were p arti o f It -, Qh Was .'the D ire cto r o f our 2. Medical Department; Dr, ^ R o u s h t h e m edical input:, the 3 o th e r would be the; appropriate D irector o f Environmental' Opera 4 . . . tio n s . This/would, be a Dr/. C all i s w ith .o n e p a r t o f th e company -f 5 .i t would be other, in d iv id u a ls w ith o th e r 'p a r ts . . `*rS 6 , Q Now when,you shy, a p p ro p ria te d ir e c to r , why dp you; say 7 .a p p ro p ria te ? Would th a t, p e r son chang soldtim es? . /'" _ - , 7 7 ^ V "\;- ;ii' < 7 7 . 7 -1- 8.. A * *' Yes, 'y e s . V- 1 ^- y ' mt* r r ' * * ** ,, *- i r ^ V/ ' , "v J --/ " *. ' r, ' ,T 9 > Q Why would th e re be a change? -... " ` ; ; 10. A I t would depend upon th a p r o d u c to r .th e m a te ria l in 11 , q u e stio n . The company is//d iv id e d -u p -in to now fo u r basic: L . J , V-, ^ 7 .' V-' ^ '' - ' -` 12 . o p e ra tin g u n its , each ope o f which hae a D ire c to r o f Environ 13 m ental O perations .fu n c tio n , : and so depending upon th e substance 14 o r th e m a te ria l ih; q u e stio n j the':DEO o r .D ire c to r ;o f Departmental 15 O perations fo r th e p a r t *o f th e company t h a t e ith e r m anufactured Cj 16 o r used th a t product would be p a r t o f th e . consnittee. /; So thatv 7 7 . -'.yi./i/v 7_..7V. / t / . -\ 17-. fu n ctio n would always ;be p a r t o f .th e g ro u p , but the in d iv id u a l ii;- ; would. change depending, upon th ; pro duet being co n sid ered . .. .19 "/; 7 Q ' . ir r i g h t , V 7 /7 7 7 - /. ; - 20 ' A And th e t h i r d person would be1m yself to /p ro v id e th e 71-^ . . 21 "leg al in te r p r e ta tio n s , 7 'f BAY N N Ci N .J, 22 * Q I f I understand what youVre sa y in g , t h a t th e d if f e r e n t 23- products o f th e company came under th e j u r i s d i c t io n and re sp o n si ,24 b i l i t y o f d iffe re n t directors;;of^ Environmental O prations? - /'/' i:` . -t- '-y 1 .' . i,`* - - , i - v <- > --vv w , , - - i 1 . 7 ' - --- tv' 1 (' 1i ` i ' 11' V11"j , . A .- i * i . kV\ .v.t. *`v,. ' 's , -1 ./ V*'" -- V ,' , ;' \ '*1^'V*-' ' / ; . V ." ^ ^ f ' : ,,- '' `t-'` ' -r^; 5- .`V- i", A>r ;V` ( r jv . 5(1 1 (. v H 'J V- .' n $ .."' A T h at18' c o r r e c t. ; *- < s - .. 1i 42 i: t ! ! ^ Q Not one person had a l l th a t re s p o n s ib ility f o r a l l . -h ' ' ' t11 3 ^ t h e products?1,c -`. V " * . ' \ - / v`r- . ' . ' 1 ! i "1 4 A , No,' t h a t 's rig h t* ^v " ''i ; s . Q So depending u p o n th e product th a t was th e s u b je c t & o f th e 8(e) m eeting, you would e ith e r have one o r th e other? r l ` ` A Yeah; There wbuld.be two. in d iv id u a ls who would be. 8 .; th e same f o r 'a l l m eetings w ith v ery r a r e e x c e p tio n s. That. ^' } ; 1 ij* *. - \ k I' - 9\ 10 11 * ll'. 13 . would be the D ire cto r o f our Medical Department and m yself. j i Q A ll r i g h t . And that^ D ire c to r o f th e E nvironm ental. - \ "iii Health -- sp e c ific a lly D irector o f Medicine o r Environmental ( ]1 ; -1 j H ealth, t h a t 1s Dr, Roush?, r t ^- r ,, ll '.A T h a t's c o rre c t; l1 B A YO N N E. ` N .J . 0 7 0 0 2 FORM 1L 24 B 14 Q ' . Now the!.composite o f t h a t committee was e s ta b lis h e d l L !1 15 by Monsanto' a ; wri t te n pol ic y , I b e lie v e , . t h a t ' s : Def e n d a n t's h - i 16 E x h ib it 881, and may have*been e s ta b lis h e d .before th a t; b u t in ' 11 11 - 17 - , any way i t was rannounced in D efendant's E x h ib it 881. Do you 1 18 have th a t th e r e , s ir ? . ; \. l i 19 A ' Yes``, h ere i t l a . .V ^ CT- 1 .' 20 Q -- Handing you what ' s now been ^marked o r p re v io u sly been * *\I^ 'I 21 marked as Defendant Monsanto Vb /E x h ib it ,.881Vyou^ would recognize p_ ` 1 22 /* t h a t , s i r , ' a s th e ' ; v -. ; I 23 a \ , rYes.-i ;* \ ; V*w:.-* - ` V .. rL t i ' 24 ;' Q . -- policy statem ent. estab lish in g o r a t l e a s t .rc affirn ing V -1' ' ' * ' .VS ' \ , * J ` ,.f*r i 1 -V ` Ovi 1 V' f C^ %1 m .* f A ' . v v -- . -. \ r' - r ^ t > / . ' . ,l ,^ v^- tr, PENGAD CO: 1 vVn' ^ ' 'ZS' - v ' H ^ ) - r . , ''w')' ',- ' v " /' " ; ' -- V vv> , ; / . . ' - t ^ ^ ' `- t A>l's he committee organ izatio n you have j u s t te s t i f i e d to as con- ' 1 :v \ 1 '2'Vi'< s t i t u t i n g an 6(e); committee^. ;r-%>jv 'y-; - s - A T h at1s c o r r e c t. ) . * : . * - s \" . -,v ;- 4 '' ,: 1 >/ Q ; . And t h a t o rg a n iz a tio n to s a t t h a t s* t ( 1 ( / * , ` rm * k - 4- ** p"L^** 3.4 * v . f 1' coninittee ' , *-" up tp ` ' -i *m' . , tt '* * C* ^ *'* ' * \J * 1 - . i rv` 'itl. - *. >/ * ' 5. , review m atters -brought5by anyone to :them when a person f e l t \6r th ere might be a chemical o r raixture o f chemicals th a t would r ii* 1 * t \ <- ',v;- / .' 7 :- - r o f the ; type th a t should; be' re p o rte d under 8( e ) , wa t h a t *- ; 8 ;. s e t u p /in .'accordance w ith th e p o lic y statem en t o f th e EPA? U. ; 9,; A -Yes ^ ' * J - r*t L r..y ,, A ,f * ' - I. S !.. io ' :' ^ / Q : / As" s e t o u t in Defehdant 'a E x h ib it 880? . :-il ' 1 ' L, -J ` k.i V ./ 12 >, 13 : . ,4 ; ' A' `%-'YeV,`*y ' % , > w' ` Q Add X b e lie v e .you've got G th e re in fro n t o f you, ;/ / ' , v . have you nofy, s ir? 'v ^ ,` V.' `L ''< '/' -k ;a;; / ` ^ e s ^ ;th a t- s 'c p r r e c tv ^ ^ _ ^ . / j;, t. - L^ 1 -;(J - V /'IS/, '., Q . / A ll .rightV-; v " ? . - : " ^ ,r ^ . . . 16 ' A ctu ally r as l r e c a l l , ;th is o rg a n iz a tio ii o r t h i s ,. | . ' -'i7 ; l i t t l e group/ was. more o r le s s .e s ta b lis h e d j u s t p r i o r to the' Z ^i - *`I.. fcK-.k 1 T '' ' * '-**ft "' L' . ,,i. "i - X - ' ' . ` 1b P 4 `v\- '1,8./ p tib lic a tio n of.;tha p o lic y . In othcr.w ords,; to assu re compliance ' j -If `w ith th e s ta t u t e . ,_V ' v - . - j \ S':*"' 2p' ' Q A ll r ig h t .- : - > L \ 'H fj,iis ' l L" ' *-* 21; - 1 |J" 1 ", B u ;* ,t1/ t h i e V n i t was . ' r . ` . - th is type o f Inform ation here is rr ' - ,, * * *j ~fr , >' ' ,I J7 t' -: someth in g ;s i m il a r ,to t h i s i s pubi i s had. an n u ally in an * i -n ; /V ;V;V'23;/: ^ e ffo rt to make ;stir t h a t lemployees' are; k e p t khowledgeable about -> . ' / " p u f o b lig a tio n s /Under S ectio n . 8(a) . / ' *1 - ' ' L ; . . C": S ' f" ? ``;Jri it1*- * j r r. ' Lj . 'Mi" j. - ; - n . , j > `-.r - 1r : , f .r> -, i! 43 ^ - ` V -. ;.\v 1 . ;- . - * . v f-i A V v- ^ - ; ./ .. .A' VUW v, J v i. A - . 1 Jv >- \ \ < - * , / V'>'- ,-T _ `i , -i " V < \ ' \ J - 1 j v , . , >-. : <Av A ^44` . 1 ; , ,-`- ' A A v 'y A v V A ;A ^ !a a A - A a " ' ' . V" ,^ * >'' ^ ^v r. > - ' - - * ' - -LL H, '-f -` , :>. ' v >, >\ - ' -f 1 ,- - , -, . .. ^ .v i ` ;I\ Q A ll r ig h t , s i r ^Ww ypu- mentioned 'th a t che p o lic y , , .- - -/ -i, . r .-V-f . V 1 - - .(.'V ^ _ ; . ' > ; ^ " ' ; ' 2^ 'provides fo r th re e .persons t ^ y o u rse lf, th e head o f th e Department : 'vV .3'^! . o f H ealth and Ehvironmehjtal Medicine ,AandAthe' re sp e c tiv e D irecto r , "'> - * ' VA,',' -'i 4l o f Environmental O perations ;depending upon th e product? r ' '. \ ./O yJA/^AA C*'A ,AA.!,:AaA' \ ' 'V: ; y ; - ';A / ; 5 ^ > . a: - : .-a ^ .a; a! -a- V J..' * . ` 6 . Q ; Now.we have seen-, Mr P ark i a t these;,m eetings o th e r ; l. - *\-.j r' people th o u g h in atten d an ce. -Now could, you t e l l s ;why, i f th ` A , ^ 1 , A' / v ' ; 'A commitC i s Athree, on sev e ral occasions we have seen o th er, ! /A ,v 1 w- f f ` ' >- / " - ~S'. ' s- . ` ^ k A 9 f O ' ^people in attendance a t th ese meetings?^ f ; / !/ jwi ` ** S. M ^ i* - ^ . 10: " / V.,;V : I'lw".--. * ''` v * , - L 1 ' ^ `` f - A f: * Yes T On occasion Dr. Roush o r - - an d /o r th e DEO , ' ` . V _ ; >; ^ ` . 1 , v. , i 'r > '*: " ' ' ' * 1 V - .- ' ` J V 1 . * j " , L-' , ` ` t , ' j ' 1 " . ` ' '` `, ! ...U '* would provide o th e r pepple who. they f e l t might have soma knowl- " 12. :edge or! ex p ert 1 se o r v h atev er th a t would ^be o f use during th e / O' 1 , is / . m e e t i n g s . ; `''i'V '- . - A" -A .14/ 4' * L k ' LH ' - '/rV !/-- v;1' .\ - ;> Q A ll r ig h t So- j us t to add; a d d itio n a l inform ation o r i '1-L. ' .. .. ^,* \ v , . -' .is knowledge i 'f ,thought to be necessary i n p a r tic u la r s itu a tio n : ^^ r; r. , 0 " ' A 16V ;to th e meeting? 'r / O ` Ifc- I. : V ' y A A/Xhat',S.\cdrrect!.vV^*v^' - / . A : .'. '*-''`/Ay?' s* ' A ' A A'/A -A/. . ' A / Q . Now',. w ith , regard: to Dr. ~Roush,.. :d. you have s p e c if ic : .it;' "/' "*'''i ' o' r '' ' -*.A J'-v.-"' ^ -A- ` . l*' ^ . * . ,- r. ' l. . . * t ' : *,' , ' . < * . . s i- - . X ,- , . ,* 19 know ledge,. s i r i /o f h is ed u c atio n a l background and the ty p e ;o f p e n c a d ' c o .. b a o n n E , n .j .. 07001 1 .20 - l'~;--A 21 r* ^ - .. , ^ 22l : * h . -i A^ .;/ , 23 : cou rses he took,, th e 'type o f degreos t h a t he g o t, do you have ` ^ l *`J''';\'!;-/y''AA/AyAA-A S `r ~ y / / AAv'., ' r; ! 1 any specificjIm ow lede A ^ ,th t regard?;. ^ /. . : A I reallyA donrt; have !th sp e c ific knowledge as to the' / t ^ r- ^ d ta ils o f h isAiv-b*-1ackground. A ^ A/ . V ' 'A' 24 ' Q ... AHeAis! d p ct f, youknow th a t? / L--1: >r- ?: 1 ' 2'. A He i s an.'MDy yes, -^ Q . Do * you know- 'w". her(e/-ji.*ih,>ie?Ph * as V 'i 'i * s s p' env-t1 \} t h<Ve better " part or , h is' 3 p ro fessio n al career, in what area"; sp e c ific a lly ? 4 A I do know, th a t he has he has been a Professor 5 in a u n iv ersity , also had experience in , 1 think, in functions 6 somewhat s im ila r to what he holds w ith. Konsanto p r io r to h is * *7 coming-with th e company - 8 Q All r ig h t. But beyond th a t y o u 'r e n d t * -- you d o n 't 9. have a l o t o f s p e c if ic knowledge about what he did and when he 10 d id i t and e x a c tly w h at.h is background and s p e c if ic tr a in in g 11 and experience had been o r was? 12 A No, I havernever re a d -h is rsume' in o th e r words. 13 Q Okay:' Now a t th e se m eetings t h a t you d id though 14 a tte n d w ith Dr.. Roush did he d isp la y to ;your mind, as a layman 15 knowledge about the to x ic ity o f v ario u s chemicals? 16 - .. A 'He-'s. always appeared very, knowledgeable about to x ic ity . 17 ` Q Do you know what a c l i n i c a l to x ic o lo g is t, i s , Mr . Park? 18 A I'm n o t sure th a t I do. 19. Q Do. you know /what an .experim ental to x ic o lo g is t is ? *. 20 A- Noj .1 don1tv v r ' 2K Q Do you know o r , have you ever heard anyone ta lk about ` .22 ' } 23 ' 24 Dr. Roush being a c l i n i c a l .to x ic o lo g ist and having p racticed - in. th a t fo r many years? Anybody ever say th a t to you t h a t you can ,_ . \, r1 ' / j '* , ^ recall? ' '* PEN GAD C O .. B A YO N N E. N .J.. 0 7002 F O B * IL 24 B 46 . . 1 1 ,, -\ * <' ' ;, ' '' ;v* \* > v., - 't ~ - &*, ' ,, ^ .S , *** * - svVi -. r' i . : Vv* -1 `t _ i. r - *' ^ . "" - / w ` V1!- L !< ; . H * V ; ,, . S -V J `c. * -, * ^ - * * v t i - 'V / ' i \ .S' - * *,: - ' -i . t , r -O Y1 A - Nor chat I canvrc3>I;;..^.5rt/A\->\'rM i` '-* .--- -- . I 3 r -- **/ > [i .- X i - - > V/ , C'- ` - - , ' ^ ; 2 . Q " -Ali r ig h t. .; Now, ac th e sem ee tin g s and s p e c if ic a lly ai; `.-'.y1'- ,v v.i: L'iV': '"'` '" ' -s couple o f these th a t Mr. ckrT: howadJyou,' hr [^8 referen ce S , ' *. ' . X v' : v' ' , * * ; v; '* t . ,* 4 .v to lh your minutes, th at: :you prepared; .trace iiyels* ;Do you -5 r e c a ll MrV. Carr: asked ;y o u .ab o u t/t h a t ^ ; Nw, I know t h a t y o u 're 6"' , th one: th a t copied down ' th e notes" and you1r e th e one th a t had \WL ' H'. -, . / * ; - - '"'r, - l / ` `V -- ^ 7 1 th e n o tes typed up, b u t when th e word tra c e , le v e ls was used iti 8-. ' th e se not e s , .were .Vth se, words t h a t , you spoke ia t th e meeting' to ' 9 . th e b e s t o f your knowledge?. . -** 10 *v v :'v: No/ ; r i l} Q - pr ;are those; t h a t -th e ; pco p ie, t h e ,to x ic lo g i s ts and/ ,u: ^ the. people from th e Medical Department spok?v ' 1v L ;3- A .These would. be words' coming from th e more te c h n ic a lly 14 ' 15; \ educated and o riented individuals , , , 1 ' . . ' , * * 1 * - \ * *' . . * ^ , 4. , J i .. ' 1 f - - ^3 *- > i ^ L ` A V- , - r i , p 'iW i * v ' / - #k- L "- , Q : And th e c o n t e x t i n which they used them would be; b eet :6 ; known by them, :I ta k e i t , than i t would be by you, Mr, P ark?.. j'ii ' 6- A , T hat's c o r r e c t . 1 `': - ' v w-*^' ; 18- _- Q : And again V7i;th reg ard to le v e ls were any o f 'th e se ;PEN G A D CO ;; 19 m eetings t o the bes t of your reco le o t ion o r th e .review of your 20 no tes - - : I know th a t you s a id th a t you have, very l i t t l e , i f . '21, any, re co ila ctio n of most, i f not a l l o f these/m eetings except 22 w h at's containedyin these, n o te s , i s th a t c o rre c t? * -S 23 ;J^ ' :k ^s* - i L. V LV.t' >'y'y "; y '"J V -24 ; Q But do any o f th ese m eetings r e f l e c t , s i r , th a t th e -#, r I >' J * > t 1 /, l" . C rI ' ^ ` y- * _ '' , 'I T `. "t r 1?- X.** ' -**< *1 . > HO ' I ^^ J jr. . 1 r (1 ' ^' *m ' * 1 ' ,m 47. ' r L V J ,,J ' . r' ' i , `l' `r - ?V1? .g> v `f ,r ,. ' sJi1*,, : `5' 1 J, ,. , . - _ ' " ' ` , - <5v . ' l " r ^ ) } V ' i ' - d* 1, . ' J~ ' *l{ i r' / 1 . . ,t v' ' '' - , :! * ' - - f * k`*"V S ,, ^V f < ' / ,, i * .; I . ' , c , , v' \ -\ ` " v/ -yVV-- v sr?w * Vf -*u*?vv - - ;r . 1 " purpose o f th e m eeting was to tr y fo r any p a r tic u la r chemical \ v ' .\ .h ;^ v `f ? ; l;- ` .. ' y y2 o r compounds bt^t.\thsantO iv|8^.n^ ] ^ ^ ^ i nS'' tp-^try and. e e t /a' i" v .. ^ V " : - r' " - ' V*^ *'] /- ,'1 - `" - . S 3 ' le v e l wit regard to th a t compound o r a c o n stitu e n t.' a component - .. - ----- 1 l < C ? M?V , V v ^ ; l ' : 1 -. , - - 4 im p u rity ; lii th a t `vcompotind th th would be co n sid ered safe? V. s A. Oh, no.; Thfipurpoee of: th ec^ ectin g was /s o le ly to 6 .determin w h ether'an o b lig a tio n e x is te d under' S ectio n 3 ( e ) . a ` 7J rep o rtin g o b lig atio n , < L\J-*V ' 8:v Q ,; * W ith.reg ard to a ^ p a rtic u la r chemical .th a t was brought 9 to you ,by: someone? " - 1 0 , v -- ^ThatVs . r i g h t / " , v v V.. ' A ''; ' ' . . , V./, A-J 11. Q And b eyond th a t chemical ^and th e dig cus sions th a t -wf^ 12 -had about I t and; i t s le v e ls th ere, wasn' t any attem pt to, say, V 1 13 w e ll, gee, vhow-high, can you go o r how. low should you go o r any- . * , ' * L. " "t i. i 14:. th in g l ik e th a t? ' _ ,, ^ l ^ ^ '< ^ ^ J ' -'*- ^ r_ ^ 's j /-* - *, L- t ,T r V; i ? 15. V 16 - !; Q NjfV^i'- ->^'T,r:-' *: V1' v '*.V ' ' . v : ; , V". , 18 . th is . THE CRj . Before you g e t in tp an o th r subj o c t , i s - J( n ^ i : ^ * i ' ' i j ^^ v .r r' - . ` rt w * v > * r - \ ' y j' J, , . a good p o in t for; a sh o rt\ break? ' L * - - .t s ,J '.l ' w r- -r *-i- ', ^; . J " 19 ` . MUSGRAVE ' Yes, 1 th in k i t i s , your Honor. . . . ., ^ 20?. * rt T v f- THE COURT: Ladies, and gentlem en, we`l 1 ,take a s h o rt 21 re c e ss a t .th is tim e, .,,-Pwould, remind y o u ,and t h is would go for. ` K,*c " * -* \ ; - ' ' j7: ^ ' *. ' r>*. *' v /' V'' ^ '- -22 : ' *k any o th e r .recesses th a t w might ta k e during th e day, t h a t you 23, - a re n o t to d iscu ss t h is m a tte r tng yourselves o r w ith anyone >, ^ 24," o u tsid e .th e ju ry .panel o r ' as o f -yet form any opintone o r Icon- P.ENQAO. C O .,' O fY O N N E . N U .J , 0 7 0 0 1 , , v *. . 43 ''t ` - , '/ - S. i ; H> -^c i ^ ' t T T 1 ^-*1 " , - i pr , I . 1 . e*lu sio n s about 'th e rm'a'tt'}e. r'Js ]i6}n^.t?rl>a,/lvA-^ ^-C'Jo/u'\rt,**s> 'in rVe,.c' e s s . V . /. t v) \ ii?* - li- ` * *"| 1 1 ^ t. t. m* >` ' ,| 2 / ` (At th is tim e a / sh o rt re cess was .tak en .) - .- ` ^ .^ . f -T Jla* '. Ti > i * , r 'l \ u - 3/ * ' -- . m '.' ' j - i **.r^ j/ - * ; -v Lc'j- t '" PHOCIOM'^ARK^ . - r . ^ ' ' i r" . X ' ' . 4 resinning the" w itness stan&,.->having- been p rev io u sly sworn, - ,;p' r;^ `>, JwV* ,v-fvi\^? ^<*;1\i ,J \'. ,-L'" % * -i'1V-' ^1 *J- ^ 5' t e s t i f i e d fu r th e r as follow s: r . , > *v, , ' 6r ^ ; CTARIRICATIOH /(C ontinued) 7\- by mr. musgraVe : ` '. : > \ v Z-'"' : > 8 . Q Mr.. P ark, when we-broka, I th in k we were ta lk in g ;^ -. ;` 1 L 1^ ' j '' " `, ' V r `` _ ' ' i t 1, 9 .. 11 ^ , sr '. r S . 1 11 t' ^ J t r' about th e ' o rg a n iz a tio n o f th e ,8(e) ` ' ^ . "* 1 t ' ^ ^ 1 committee/ nd .1 want to ' 10 ^ ' ' - : vl ^ TV l'r H>-^V". !. continue to .piirse th a ti but ^ ^ /' VW" 1"i". e ^ mr before: I: d 1so , I 'd " ' `' Flik e to corns 11 ^ back a m inute t o \ p l a i n t i i f 1s E x h ib it 1302 t h a t I s ta r te d :o u t " <; . '-V -V '?V r< -> ' s--: ;'*'` /': . 12 questioning; you; about o r ig in a lly . ^ T h a t's: the! l e t t e r w ith th e 1 3 '/ a tta c h e d re p o rt o f th e Dow analysis^ o f i t s own 2,4 d ich l r p h en ^ l. 14 ;l asked you;jSome q u estio n s about th a t e a r l i e r . Do you r e c a ll? 15 A `r ^ t e e ^ ^ :- ' ^- 1 16, it .18 J , Q ; I had One, o th e r q u estio n to a sk you. I f you would ' ^ F" ' ' " S ..* ' f ` ^ S `" > ` L -* ' t_ ' t 'L^ ' - J ' 1 \ ^ V. .`l ` " 1 P| * . *K` m. ^ - %" * . ` ,, t_ [ M tu rn to the th ird page q f 'that- E xhibit 1302/,where th e y 're - . I *'r ' ' , ;>;/; . ,d esc rib in g a t;th e ; top of th e th ird /p a g e th e re -th e m anufactured1^ 19:: d a ta , company,;; they giyVth e nam e'oi th e company, th e s iz e /o 'f ;.: 20 ; : th e sample a n d `th e lo t. nusnber and th e batch number. You see ' 21 , th a t? ^v>". 22 A . -vYes, 'u m h m ' :` V 23 .. 24 . Q ' And; th e n ;th e n e x t ite m .s a y s ;p u rity . ;' / . AV- :'Ye.;::-' .- V - T ;L. V . I 1 "j S' . r'-' - r-1'^ c i '' '-> ` * ' `- ' - 1 - >V-t ` h \2 i\ t y- y `',/j ' j ' j *.. \*y -> `"^ . T+ 1 A 1 - , ; E4 4 *> ' * Hi - i - ( r A ' *J .. J i * r ^r' s > . V ^1 A h* ' 1' 1 ' 1 ` ` ** " i. ,, i-.' -A v" ' i .. v .' *^ *, - - k*' ','r. ^ r ;i ..* 't ' * ' <ST-'' t v v ; V. 1 `' r ' f-~ -- >.. 1/ ' / v .- ^v` /.' /- '''//' v\ / k/`'/-':`'J '/ ` - 1 \ ,-" jr '- S i /' ' '- U' . ' ; ,- J ' V ` / * `` . " ,, j - > - v ` --,,,7 ; > ;. t t-' . * Jl; : Q And then I t says , "S pecial l a b / d i s t i l l e d l o t by - - -'i *> -" ^ f./ / '-f \ !' >i* 1 ./y- > f-'.. i ^,'V' .' ^ m a n u f a ct * u r e ' r**' "J, Si . ' Yf .a' T_<.^ iv"*/ X 7 , r -`* ^N^U ? *- vI ^ ^J/ .z "^"h - ^' V ?/'- ^ ; '1 - *. 49 ' ' 4 Q / Kow# dp you know, s i r , th a n w hether o r n o t t h i s ' 5' sample o f 2,4/ d ic h lp ro p h e n o l/th a ^ ahalyzPd" was r i g h t 'o u t ; . - '6 o f i t s production run o r was i t something s p e c ia l t h a t was done PEN GAD C O .. 'BA YO N N E. N .J.* 0 70 01 FORM IL 1 * 0 1' in the. lab?. / - ^ -f ' t , ''8' v- / A ,. . I t would :appear from; th a t wording th a t t h i s was a . ^9 ` " / ' ' > > +' - ' O ' ,n/ ''vA , . n" / , ,special batch of m aterial, produced;in the /laboratory ,,in order. ;< ./id 11 V 12V to.achieve./a* higher d e g rc e o fp u rity .;; * ' -+ i "'-L ";/< */ ^ Q :v ;A nd;it uses the word d is tille d ? J . -M. , ^ a- * 1 - z > 1 L+ r ^ ' > , 1 ' i '> ' ^ 1 - ' ^ ' t * *' 1 t ,s '* j' * " 1 ' a - \ ys . '; ,v / '' ; . jJ ' r / ;K L - 1 ? ^` ' r / " 'j M 13 v , J11 i. . ^ . K . */ i < -*l k *j , "4v i.j t * i -*. ' , *-* 'i -*< ' J' a'*^ 1.1. V* i *% .' K : Q/ . 'Now-.'do you -khow whether DowJro u tin e ly d i s t il l e d - i t s ; \ s;: :.-Cr *- ' tC',\ If* 2 f4 dichlorophenol? v`/ / ''/ . - ,-./// , '".-/ ' . 1 - y , ' '\-. k/ / :15 '' A -/ / I''do'/iiPt'ichoW'^/-'-/^ ^ ; / - ;* ~ 16 Q Do you know i f / i t d id whothar th e d i s t i l l a t i o n th a t .17 ? :i t us ed in th e ac tu a l pro duet ion o f t h e .2 ,4 dichlorophenol was. ^18 ;ahy d i f f e r e n t t h a n r t h e d i s t i l i a t i b n th a t ap p aren tly was done m in the lab as-spine type o f a sp e c ia l lab. d is tilla tio n ? 20 >; ' / A' i d q n ' t iow ./ :Vu / / ^ .^'y ;/ ; 21 Or . Q Now, coming back again then to the. 8(e) committee. 22'.' and its* o rg a n iz a tio n . I. th in k ;w e/talked, a b i t about th e members ..'23-/ . 1; o f i t and. how) o t h e r .people come to be p re se n t a t th e m eetings. - 24 L et me' ask y o u / s i r , you're to ld us t h a t yoin: r o le i s one 6f -V ' V4'r 'T ;./. ?A^A<;T'VTl' -L - ; ; `V ^ ' - , y y v " - . . `; v v ^ ` . V v v `-. -. ' ' V ,? ..v ; V ^ / y - - y . - ; , v , ,\ , 1. . . T <.* ^ ^ L--... J "> V. ', {,, ' ' , ' **',^<.- . ' '/ '. V ,. ' i rl, " ' k *. "*_ y, ,< il. _ S L,, , . <V! '1 . f t ; .r -j. ' ' ' ' ' j ,- ; u TJ w i -' L . - L - ' , ,, -v , 1 -J y y ...t *" T 1 y -y 1. ^ - ."' ;.->>. '* -' 'v- . 1*' ,, . J, L *v. * ^ h - n , - ** "*1 % ^ ' Z /'J' *r-s4-i' - *. i s.1-i :fc n, s.---/ -iTC-s. i l r ^ 0 , *. ' v' 7 . m fc * ^ *' i*< LX. y' '* ,, V . ' , . *s '*i y* > - -j l ,- .+. L ^ 4' - * ^ 1 ^ *"!. t > <- ^ ' . ; ,,' ^ L"! v .V , " v V ^ ^ ' *`1' m* ' ''* m < V o cher than th e minute^ taket?. and-w hatever applying th e lav/J / - V " ^ ^ f '>..ylTJ .V , & r * ' V t* .%- -,%l. _ r - ^Sl ` >- ^ W**f-c - r ,,*fcf((>*#*. %. i,r | .' * ^-V * ." J ^k *J-. -1 t as you understand'-It to; tha infoinnktlon ' tlia t Is: gathered th ere ' 3 a t. t^h e^ m eetingt from th-.e^; to;.5' 'vx, io o lo g is t* ) 1an1d- 'm e ; d> ic'; al 'p e o p le , i s that': V ' '4 . ^correct?' - -J - ' - -v. ' : ^5 A _t . T h a t's, r i g h t . . k 'S'- .i - TV- ' Ux Cr'v'-^,-6r 0 <, *vr,tpi.--1. v ; . ^ V: ' ' 6 / Q Now do you o r :to ;yp"uf Kowie^^ -do ;youTrecall ever ' - , . 1Vr"'jT` iJ- \ ^ -;;1 * -v ' \ 7 T having-, expres sed an ppinipn o f a to x ico lo g ic al -o r a medical " ;-'8 ;T- " ' . J n vs at*_' u r-eA?^ ; *`T " '" , ' -A.i T V "j'* V , t x h^ i."` ' V- ' l, i ,- \ , - T lt s'1"" r'v` v T_".L' (1, , ^ lJ' % "-v^ L ' -.9 " a ; - 'No 1J :"V'/ ! 5 / . -V V .i. ;\/:; .1 0 f1 ` ' * 'v- >" . Q * You Ldon *t h avotthe background Tor th e .e x p e rtis e fo r, T ; 1 1 . that? .,: v^ -' / ' 12 r,. 4r A-' - T h a t's .c o r re c t 1; : ; T, L -.'y ^ / J 3 " ^ . ; Q " Now a t. these^ m eetings, s i r , do you r e c a l l a t any ; T ; 1 4 m eeting th a t you can r e c a ll p o rtio n o f o r do you r e c a l l i f :i IS ? , yo,L\ur notes r e f lheJc,j t ^ y r. t h^aJ_t -- f/Tt h;Ve~r1e,, - w, , aTs , - e-,,v**et'lr av n^ y,t d i / sag mi'<** r e*e me k n t ' - o*n an\y''.-j *^ p o in t,, a m ajor p o in ty l t 's /s a y i o f .any o f th e people th a t , ; 1 6 ;, 1 7 ; ,,attended.- th e e e meetings'?;'^'T'T; ; : . T ; ' ; ? / ; ! '--1 `y ' T. / ' ' ' : "'i' j - ' *8 : A. ' ' X L" : ' V ' * ' - : v ' J r ' ; T / 1 L ** * j, : 1 1 T , . 1 ^ cannot r e c a l l an y disagreem ent as to th e f i n a l V, . ; . 1 9 j conclus ion o f an 8(e) meeting v T T / T; ^ -' J , T .: 1 - 2 0 -Q ' All-:right-! -.-.A ?,;. V ^ ;: -, T..*. T' v >'. .T. T ^ ' t T T- , L '' yT ; V':;'k- ' -' -T1^ : r` . ; ; '-- . ' 2 1 T :: ? A There ha8 been d isc u ssio n o f soma o f th ese te c h n lc a l ,Jk . T'j - 1' -- / 2 2 ' h Tissues duringTpeetings. > ' "J; jC . , u . T J-^v A T - ,. -' I- . <' P t . ,, . f -` - _. , *. ' ' T '' " T y ^ : A23;;TT . Q . A l l x i g h t . And 'i f th e r a were k d is agreem ent, s t i l l - V . i i " some , conclus ion Twould have to be reached? . s--;; i -v FORM . IL 24 Q s -1 ` ` . 1 " .-'x u . ' ^ L- lf, v T T : ' k S ^ T ' T : v T - L i* v v ' A *' > r 'i ' ' - " - 's - - - . . ; .k . " ._* . " ' - . \ i ` y ':' : v./T -A ^ A y v T- - < \,< Ci : * T -T r v-y ; ; ' .7- '*i 'c. 51 > *'* s s . , . r Yes* -2 ' Q And" depending upon th e .natura o f the disagreem ent and " " - ! i j - / - J ' l i-- ^ j. 1" "O ` f , t' 3- th e person th a t might ; b -die agre eirig ; l e t 's: '-say (with th r e s t y ' ^ \ .'4:- o f th e group, one (might look a t th o e d u c a tio n , ;th e ex p e rien ce, , ' -', . i(ftCY -V\ i.j; i '' ? .v.*\ ` /A-'3-1'', 1-v. \- ' . y~-V . " ' - " . 5. th e tr a in in g o f those agreeing1 asYopposed to thopiv d isa g re e in g ( 6 to comse' tto a 'conclusion? Y`Y y ./'\Y V-'Y *- Z y y Y Y Y i-; X r -Y \ 7 Y A . Y e s *^ " -, - s>v. - v: Y Y Y lY " ' ' ` v ; s, :Y " -j i _8, Q And in^ such a s lt a tio n t h e n i f th e re was a conclusion 9 t h a t was h o t th Ysame as t h o s t h a t .. -- of- some. o p in io n s, thertfi 10 would be then --Y 'th ra ;would be a Y ltu a tio n 'where you would 11 n o t be folipw ing' th e advice o f a t l e a s t one' person: on th a t 12 committee o r t h a t tnay have corne as ah in v it e to ta lk ? ' Y p'* V'V . '' -> - y f ** . t' ' 1 SV? L - `" Y f , r. ^S L. * J L Vi " *' ' ^y '' i ,13 ' A Y V e s^ th a t's tru e'. (Y''v ; :y \ " : 14 QY; j Now?;,Kr; C arr yaskd you you r a c a ll . ih your exami-r 15 n a tio n about Whether you woiald b e l i e M o n s a n t o to x ic o lo g is t 6 t h a t t o ld you th a t a c e r ta in !lev e l ought t o , b e . re p o rte d to th e Y - . y V^Y.Y V-Y/ ; ' YYy - ;-;Y Y..`- y' lV"` : 17 EPA.. po y o u ?recall ' th a t? , i Oh I Im sorry,,: ha d id n 11 r e a lly , ask .it Y* . 18. you t h a t . As- 1 r e c a l l , he s a id w h eth e r,a p a r t ic iila r le v e l o f ^ i 19 /dioxin was haeardoxis; ' Y- Y -Y ^ . YY: ' 20 ' . *Y Y `iV ^ Y 'Y Y ' Y ' ^ Y / Y Y A ^ . Yesy.I re c a ll th a t. %.:.Yy Y- _Y - ; : ` Y' "? , . -Y ` 21 ,Q Y And-iyou s a id i f , a Monsanto to x ic o lb g is t t o l d me th a t , .22 I 'd b e lie v e i t . 'Now chat was in th e co n tex t o f one on one, ' t 23 `w a sn 't J *` ' i t ? ' 1'.-/- - ' -- Y Y >1, - '* .1 4/,, - J i ` `Y-*YY; ' - -, ( ' * ' -*' ''-` Y ' * * * - ^ 'Y i r* r' ! ^" ' '_ ^ S' \ t .L - .Y ^ h v "' L k * ^ 24' Y! \A:-r;:VO h |;y es, !`;V'' <-v ' y Y , r>; ' r '`Y Y v^!; *Y;Yl'Y -Y fc, YY- . f ? I.1 'PEN G A D C ..'.0 A Y O N N E ;. H .J . 1. / -2. , 4k X'XXX !f , r / . '' t ^ >. '1 '' 1 '* j --i L' , k- . X ' X V ' ' v i. r , X - * J.'>*.fVX-X . ' ** / ' L* . *J ^ .. * ^ ^ ' l1 `J ' ^ -^T ^V , ' k ' ' r L o'"' V- *K ,V". , .' * *j V | ^ I j1 "*-J ^_ . 1 * V '-' ' V *' " X ' "c '- ' "t V 1 i' - ' Q ./ Now, , in th e co h tex tx o f.an 8(e). m e e tin g if you had a W X. " s*- * ^ k ^^ - 1 1 ,, .. " y i- *; J . J- >>' . r * , ' ^ v 4l ^ - ' ^ ^ ' <y v a r ie ty o f o p inions/, and th e re was. a'consensus th a t c le a r ly 52! c a r r ie d th e day, then ,t h a t f,s n o t 1th e same s itu a tio n th a t 'Mr. , 'a,;. ;5 6/ C arr .poaed.. to you - X / X U X X J S i'i X X X X / X X ' X X^ ` V:' ^ ^ UvV V'A- A X No'. .. 7- ^ y* ' - s^v- i;;i^ ' \ , * * .. 1 & * r - r ' * t. j * , ' h - " " t- ' 1 ' i, 1 ^ \, Q ^1 *- , when you answered fth a t, q u estio n , x is .it?* ,7 7 y A No;: n o t a t ` a ll'. <- > * * j-* 8 ` Q Now, I *d lik e _ to g e t : i n to , s i r ,./ t h e s ta tu te .a n d th e ;.,9 *: p o lic y th a t; Hr; ,Carr: questioned you q u ite e x te n siv e ly about ^ , y, ' * , `I - Jr' i , X; X - * L'*- -. 10 c e r ta in se c tio n a o f i t , and I want t o a s k you soma q u estio n s `J.l y-'f about -' o th e r se c tio n s o f > i t . 7 Do you have D efendant's1' n " tt. -ii- 'O , ' t.' t T -* J \. ~J , ^ -t. 880 in , W ,, 12 fro n t o f you th e r e , s ir ? // - * ^ . - . *> i ^ ' -v . ^ . ' < '* _ * ,- '" /. ^J i 1 \ 11 ' A Yeev I do. .'..i , " ' v :z' >% 1' , '. f- . - "' V _ r f l' ' V .: ^i ,> v . ' *. i.' 4 ' i *- t * x 14 ' MR. MU5GRAVEjx ;A ll - r i g h t . : Your Honor, Mr Carr has 15 0 shown sec tio n s o f t h is to th e ju ry in connection w ith h is exami 16 / n a tio n , and l wo,uld re q u e st perm ission to p ass D efen d an t's. 880, ,' ^ ^ ^ y r *>. l "" > ** ' ( s-^t - , v* r j `v .j ' yJ ' ` ^ 1 hr . ?* , 1 7 ; j; which i s .the e n tir e p o lic y statem en t ,to .the j u r y . , x ' is: 19-1 i 1j ' 20 . 21 THE COURT1 , G o .rig h t ahead., , . '. - . '?" ` -. V '!. 7: '*7' ; `v^ \ ^ MR. ;MUSGRAVEr So they can follow along w ith o th e r ` r , ' V 1 '' r; 1 *; ''Xx `\~y. '*'*v '* , `t J - % - r, ' ' " V / ' - l ' r ' ^ * - ' -f^ , , ' tv ;* i 1 s e c tio n s I want to show /them. Do you have a copy, Hr. Carr? :^ 'V" "r ' V' ` -/ . .'* / r-: - . v : / . .m.'CARR; `:YesV--; r `* `.'.C /v ;. ^: . 22. ` ^j. "" ' 23< y /MR- MUSGRAVE: Your Honor, do you have a copy? . . . " ./ " ';// ' t l"-' " ,-r- . . -V r j THE COURTt I have 880, y es, thank you. v -24 . i (At th is tim c th e e x h ib itw a s passed to th e j u r y .) * PENtJAO' CO. t m r. ` t,' ^ft-'7' TL J W - ^ :F"/^V' \*J--' ' - ' 1 ` '_' V7, rr' - 7 ` ^`r 7r'i / f *V , 1^, LT'^r^' '* u- b> "'^ a d"^' ^>J'i'_^- ^71.,1 >** *,, -* 7> 1L7 J.""' ^ L. *-,* ' /J . ,' :* . .' ,J . , f1^ r \ ' *^r \* \ ' m+ \ / t. y ^ rm L ^J ' 1' , -, L^ \A 4 ^ : 1'\ 2- p " l :% Q; `7 t .'s ta te m e n t N o w ; f i r s t o f a l l , H r ." P a r k , D e f e n d a n t 1 s 3 8 0 i s a , j 7, - - VV,_ j - ^ t ^ ,, ` r7 . - fc L p o lic y a s o p p o se d to ' a r g u l t io n ,., i s t h a t w h at I ' * . ; .3 -1 u * n d 1e*r s '' t*a n d ' *' i.Lt oA' -"" ,*' b e th % ** t. e ,, `+ /, cVa>';s . .,* e J ^?iF,`- v V ; . " v^*'-'..T^r7*>7%'Vu' `7 , 1 ,,Lr^-1 - '>'\S^;*J*' '% ^7T-.77''r, ' 1 \J 7* '> h ^. T * ^ i 7% r, 4 ; A \ T h t / s c o r r e c t . ; . ' / ..' .* * .,t -". '. . - '.,l ' " v ' L i T ? \ ^ ^ ? -f .. r jT * `4-^ \ ^ ' - ' r , . t s ; t : Q \^Ahd d i r e c t i n g t o u r f a t t e n t i o n , t o t h . ; f i r s t ' p a g e o f , ! ;' - ; r-;, ' / ^ i - . * v v '-7 'v - */ r ''C ; ^ Nt' . 1' ,r 6 , th is ,- th e f i r s t column on the J le f t under the.heading there,, , .7 , , v` -V ` '- 1j i ~ \ 1 f ' 'i ^ ` .1 i" * ^ t f` Hr' J f ' ^. ' r 7^ ` S up - p l e ma .J nt A?' a' 1r. yl j n ' f o rm a t i on "- ;--- ,:^ " ^ . 1 8. ^ ^ A' ' : ,Vesv ' ,--- V J -. , ,s ..- y ,: V .w .i V > J v -*J\ . :'cr 1. * ^ ' k1 -- ' 1 v - i -, ^ ^ . 9' ; . J Q_ Does i t in d ic a te being a policy, statem en t what p ro - 7; 17 cedures a p p ly . and don;* t, .apply !as to the/ review o f t h i s p o lic y ; 1 1 . ; : statem ent and how i t !sp ro m u lg a te d .o r how !i t i s p u t out? i 2 ; A . Yes V- i t 'was published so, a s; to be exempt, from n o t i c e - ' h. ' 7 'v/'" " 7,' ,' " - . y v 7 `- ' - - 7 ' !V ` V ; 13.., and p u b lic comment p ro v is io n s o f .the A d m in istrativ e p ro ced u res ; 1 4 . A ct. ' 2 r.:; v : ' ./ 1 ,. ' * i, f 4, . ' ` '' . ' . -' - * ' - ! ' .i 2*-1*- '' bk . 1 . ^ 'l L r< ' " 11t * 15 Q So. i t i s being a p o lic y is,"exempt, from the no ticei ' r ' .* - j v - - ' ; r' ; w . l > ''t*- i 16. "and p u b lic c o g e n t p ro v isio n o f the. A d m in istrativ e Procedure r O ,_t JJK(t - , 17 ' ^Act? ` -; ^ J V"' "' / ' v ^ ,c - - B H Y O N N E ..N .J. 07002 18 * A :X fs. .. 7 y* ^ .'- '.7 ./ . .j / ' : .7 / " ' 1 19 . Q v V?hat doas th a t;m e a n ,' Mr. Park? 7 . -77- , ' . O U 2 ` v ^ A ' I t ;means ;t h a t ^ i t was p u b lish ed m erely as w e ll, 21 as j u s t a p o lic y statem ent by th e EPA, I t ' s u n e n fo rc e a b le ., I t 7 . . . , 7 ' 7 -: . 7 7 "W:7 . `" -;v v. ` v-` ; 22 ' ' does n o t have th e f o r c e o f re g u la tio n s o r r u le s , in o rd e r to J, 4.:tkr ~>* ' 1, ^J*rmJ T "' - t > ^ t -1,n> i 23"'s. ^. achieve;^ ;to- be^r7a'`re g id 'atiq n o r a r u le , "the p ro v isio n s o f th e k v; . -w A dm inistrative ProcedurGs .'7 7 '- ^ ( > i " 7 `; ' 7 ' - 7 7 ^ : 'a- v ' .7 7 ' ' ; Act'would have to 'V ; ' 7 * 7 7 7 '7 7 ' 1 -,- i v.. . . . be follow ed/ which 7 t " r~1 :v. ;^ - 7 1 ;' ` . " ' r" V - . . -e l- ^ . *' ' " - '7 7 -v ` -' . .. *;' - ` <>! r- i : -2 1t .^ 4 gives a ll in terested parties^ a rig h t to p articip ate in the , , `Y)Y ^ ' L' , ' .'l development o f the ru le , to p resen t w itnesses and to cross . Y-;Y-V'- : . V, ^ * Y. examine o th e r w itn e sse s, make p re se n ta tio n s and so f o r th . _.Q A ll r i g h t . To tak e is s u e , i f you ^rf.11, 'w ith ,th e EPA'ij 5 in te r p r e ta tio n o f th e law. through/a J ^ le . makihg process? ,,. 6 " it* Or v^` f/v :t . '"'~\r t.'"v. 1 A T h a t's r i g h t . And "a lso i f i t had been published as,, 'i ' 8. 910 ` 11- . 12 13 -14 15 ;' 16 17 18 ' 1? ^- - .20 21 22 23; . 24 a ru le , then th ere .would have-been the opportunity fo r challenge ' * h i ' - tv 7> Y `4 ''>4 V-,'. / ^ , *> again follow ing.regular.appeal procedures. ` ' ,, 1' !- ! rj '>* } ifXi ,L'*;Yf i- QY. So in th e re g u la r r u le making p ro cess i f th e EPA were to disagree w ith eomeone th a t appeared in connection w ith th is n o t i f i c a t i p n p r o c e d u r e t o w a n t . t o h a v e a say as to what they 'r ,f- ` - - - 1 , . i ' " * .- Y ,* *" 1f believe the ru le ought to be and in te rp re ta tio n o f the s ta tu te , th a t i f th e EPA n o n eth eless went ahead and passed the. r u le , then th is person would have .the r ig h t/to a c tu a lly through ,a ju d ic ia l-p ro c e s s o r a d m in istra tiv e process o f some kind, appeal t h a t and have -somebody e l s e , look a t . i t and see i f th e P was rig h t? jJ Y Y---'- y 'Y ' ^ : \ `. A ' T hat's right'. ^ MUSGRAVE /^Be f o re 'we go on. I'm so rry , I . d id n 't give you a l l enough th e re . I 'v e got ano th e r one th e r e . ^ ^ (Mr, Musgrave handing e x h ib it; to j u r o r .) - ! Q And in f a c t, in th is e x h ib it d e sp ite th e f a c t t h a t a t th e very top th e r e o f th e f i r s t column on th e l e f t i t ta lk s about statem ent p f i t s a te s f t e r th e word a c tio n 'sta te m e n t r1 VV . . ' ` vt -Y, -Y. 1i-' ' "'1- ` ^ J ' 't ., . ' -- , , ^ < `- i PEKG AD . C O .. BA YO N N E, K J . , 070Q 2' >QRM ILr 24 B - 1 ' "j -, ,, 'Y * * [ , * " L-`_` - '/'" * '\ * * J ' -r l . . " ; ' 1 i , _ , <v t: . , '*> i ' ' ?; ' , V ' J / a " % ^ j^ ",l" ` . . . v'^ .. ' *- '*, . L, ,, v. ' - - -^v , l 55 y2 " -1* , ' _ f i- ' "' i . t ' " "'j '` ' S , * L . ';'r r> , v, 1, * ' p /*P- o f in te r p r e ta tio n and .enforcem enti.policy 'th e re in th e ex p lan a tio n f : /" / 1 - - ,,* ^ -,o " \ V > V ; y / f ; " '% v .` ^ * - ,, ; **/y > - >v \ Y' 2 '"v V Y` " _ ' i / 1 l' " . '* / , '* H -. --i < ^ 11 'S V ,t l. J V , in the secondcolum n th e re i t h e m i d d l column th e re o n ,th e f i r si; .i ^ \ '" -- , . ; V v 1 * . ' . . . , - *,,fc - - ; * v--.'- v f ;3Y page, d o es i t ik>re a c c u ra te ly d what th e EPA i s saying i " ' ' i ^> r Y ;y Yr ' ^ th is "is, -sir? v -" ^ >-n> ' - YL" \5Y! .a y8> t'' ' ,- , ' , s , , ` ^ t * , i t * ' ' ,, L. . ' ' ,, `i 1 , . '' ' i ! J ' *> ' j , .i ; *, . J - " i- ^ ^' ' j . v; 6, , ; / Q /And what does i t ' say, , s ir? ' * *; * i . > ., 1 Y Y 7. , r . . V L A, The^EPt 'A^>.wt ordLin.tnfg.M*/.:isM ti-aaysi^; MThis ddcument i s how ' YVi` ' *'*2^*VJ4`' d escrib ed more 'a c c u ra tes^vll*yv ?af^ e ^ p^o3li]c-yi ^:fsB: tJa-tievncr>n.t,LrVl y-- 1 * f r Y - 9i ' .vV ` Q - 2 Add tthen,.continues ;on: by . saying , f t 'is!::exempt from; the - * v '1 ~ - v f ` ` v ;- TO n o tic e and p u b lic .connnent: p ro v isio n s o f .the A d m in istrativ e Pro4 "4Vr I,-V- :cadure Act 1 as;.well as pro v is ions-rconcerning 'dela{yet d: e ff e c t i v e ,; - ,:v 12; * r"' ` ^dates? ^ ^ r; "V-Vs?\y - >' B. ' ^V !'- .v* J'-s > ^ - " V *; . ; 1. . ^ \ -= . ; '? ' ``*3 i4' Y YsY " a ':': :-Yes!V' "... " : . . ' ,?' V j * * ' ;" ' , .J ; t . - , ;> , . . -5 . .. , * _* , t Q A l l !r ig h t. So i t s ta te s in i t s body1t h a t i t i s more ;v* ; ^ `J Yi Y1 ' '\.YY, *Y; \ ; s \ ' ' a c c u ra tc ly d escrib ed .and i s now describad a c c u ra ta ly as a! V ; 22* Y " 'i *, 17, . 's Y ; is ' ' V . * YY 19 "bolicv statement? *'L:* . /*' ,/v- * v- 1 ^ P -^ A, ' T h a t ' s correct:. .V ,' > i- s ., Y'*: Q N o w ,the s ta t u t e i t s e l f ^ ;though from which t h i s p o lic y statem en t is^made by th e EPA i s ' r e c ite d in D efendant's E x h ib it 2 v.-'.- .20' . /E 80, i s i t n o t; s ir ? ' Y '. v,;! ', : '21 -T*,. * -- 'Aw'Y:; - y * ^ ' Y;RYY v - ; 22 ; - - ( Q Y ' F i r s t column-ithero on th e l e f t o f Page .!? /' - v,,.z.;Y; :23%\ V ,J Y. , ;Y " ' ... 'A -Y'Yas>,.;i't` i s . :-L;Y -Y "' Y'YY-^ - '^ V . :Y YYY ' -Y` 1 '/ 1 *. <'.... " :Y ^ Y :-"''^Y/. YY '/,, ,Y ' Y * Y ,;;Y ;f Y 24' " v Q Y A l l - r i g h t ; u And'. t h is h a s1beenJread,' I know, se v e ra l ` '"' >i. 1~ ^ `;'Y ; > 1->_\ v-- Li -v."' PEN GAD C O .',J 0 A Y O N N E, H . J . '0 7 0 0 2 FORM IL , 24 8 / V -` 56 '/ F ik tim es, b u t I would lik e you to read i t :' again',' i f .you wouW, to' 2 . " th e j u r y / s i r , , .V- yjL \ V v -'-' ` ' , `v_ 13 L - .A . Section 8(e); co n sists o f J u st one sentence, which r 4 reads "Any person- who m anufactures, p ro cesses, .or d is tr ib u te s " `S' J 6; - '-`7'. in commerce^a chemical su b sta n c e .o r m ixture and who o b tain s ' '1 , ^ L ^ ' * '* ' vL1 * ^ - ^^ r * . ^, 1 in fo rm atip n j'which reasonably supports th e conclusion th a t such 1 t * rv i.r J r LL " i * * ^ , - ,,, '. H ' , :* C " > >1 ^ .V *,,1 \ "" i ^ 1I - , , - T' , .a:-substance o r .mixture'-`p re se n ts 'a - s u b s ta n tia l, r i s k o f in ju ry " --**-I- rV', . '`Vr 'k'L- - ' `f - ,v8`, to h e a lth or,-the environment: s h a ll, im mediately inform th e r -..- *,, _ ^ i V*1-*I * <fs' *t _ 't- . - 9*. /-ad m in istrato r o f such inform ation ^unless, such person has a c tu a l 10, /n *.12 13 . knowledge th a t th e 1a d m in is tra to r,has *;been adaquately informed '-A'. '*' . ' " / 'V *" . ,, , ' -.r .V .- - J >? jA f of such inform ation, ;V;y ` T'i - A tI-**' V * j- \ :' Q AAlIr r ig h t ,* s i r .. I Nov!, rtbiat' i s) th a : x t n t of th e , . ^\ - V ^ '- , , 1t ' J - 1I ' h H1 ^ - TJ ' p '" " , 4< ` ' ^T : -\ ^ ^- 1 - ^. * ` s ta tu te ,, i s i t not? v " `V ;': ..VJ.- '' - ' ^ 14 " : ; A, T hat!.si t i " 15 .r - . Q .;vrA- nv*d-t'he `r e s t o f t h^i s .dYoLcu.m1,e'n-t'',D e'fendant''s E x h ib-it ' i ' i -> J < , -v- . ... ^ -, . <, ,-. v-16 ; ,3i30, is. the";policy statem ent?^' v . : 'C \ ` : j-;' - 17. `i %* ' - : -`r:; -, r 1 ' - r - / V , . L' iV- . -^ A ' t h a t 's r i g h t , Issu e d -b y th e EPA. .. .`is : : . Q . Now'the s ta tu te is . th law as th in g s, stan d r i g h t now?. ; 19 A T h at1S-correct' r">; A: , , ' .. 'i >4* / ^ ; \ 'j - *: v ' , 20. - i 4; \Q >.*,nd Li f ; someone'vd isag re es w ith th e p o lic y sta te m e n t, \ v.:- * ;k.;-2i and th e EPA believes.; t h a t 'th e y 'r e n o t in te r p r e tin g th e p o lic y . ; ' j' L 1* < < , .' * - , .S *- ( I ' 1*, * * - ' 1 L 22 ` o f th e EPA- pardon rus - - I f someone d isag re es w ith th e 23 ; EPA's p o lic y statem en t, "b e liev e s th e 's ta tu te i s r e a lly i n t e r - . '-24 - p ra te d in some o th e r fa sh io n , t h e -EPA. can challenge th a t person s ,r ' P E N G *D C O ,, BA VON H E . N .J. ,, J ' - ' '* 'f . . .. , J. rv . 57 1 , in te r p r e ta tio n , can they^ not?^ y ' `2 A . . Right,' the/EPA;couid:f i i e .a complaint. . *3 . Q . Or; i 'f 'a person d isa g re e s w ith some a c tio n th e EPA 4 - might tak e because t h -EPA b e lie v e s they v io la te d th e p o lic y V' v \ 7 '/> r V ^ - y / 'y i .n,. -V j\ \ 5 r statem en t.' th en ..th a t pers n ;could- take ac tio n -'a g a in st th e EPA . . . 1 M V' ` ` ``-V: .v 6 in ' s om '< e -fa sh "' io n ? J - Ly*- L `,. -.v : / . : < i\ f .V -I 1,.' V- I - , -- t ' - -. . 1 v ,, - ; A' I v r* t ' -7:, . A I'* guess,. - y I guess ^i t ' woldVb. p o s s ib le ^ b u t i t y . : 8 would be up. -to! ' t , 'r ' h1 e ,EPA , to . take ,a c tio n .Ci w -. i ' .if, it' x.*v/ 0f e; l t isomeone h -f-.v . *' a d ;1 r -- -L ?/, v io la te d . Section 8( e ) . ' . -J 10 Q; ` '-Yes. - Vlhat 1 1m -aayinjg i s i f - t h e ,EPA, took ac tio n , 11 against,som eone saying you. v io la te d our p o lic y statem en t, th a t 12- person wouldvbe p erm itted t tak some a c tio n 's a y in g w e ll, 13 y o u 're wrongvabout what we th in k the law says. J u s t because 14 you say t h a t 1a what i t saysy i t | s only p o lic y and w e're- . - V *L ^ , | ^ 1' ' * " ' f 1 ,,/ ^ ^ 1 JL J 15.;. e n t i t l e d to :fin d o u t what th e co u rts say and a d m in istra tiv e ; 16 law judges sa y 1'about i t . ,V" - J :! n ' - A1 \ Oh, y es. - I think, probably th e o b lig a tio n , th e burden 18,L > would be- on 'th e EPA as in any, other, a lle g a tio n o f v io la tio n to; 19 show th a t someone, had . was in . v io la tio n -o f..S e c tio n 8(e) . ,, 20- ," MR.'GARR Your Honor, t so th ju ry w o n 'tvbe m islead, 21 I d o n 't th in k .co u n sel did i t on purpose,, b u t.h e suggested th a t , 22 i f th e EPA b eliev ed thatsom ebody disagreed w ith i t s in te r p r e -23; ta tio n o f . t h e - l a w, th a t i t ' s up to the PA to challenge th a t 24' - p e rso n 's .in te r p r e ta tio n . pf, co u rse,; th a t is - n o t ,th e law; The: 07001 FORM IL A B PENGAD C O .. BAYO N N E. 58 l\"; EPA i s under o such o b lig a tio n to challenge anyone's i n te r p r e . 2. t a t i o n . Th EPA's o b lig a tio n i s to p ro secu te v io la tio n s o f th e Taw th a t they le a rn ofv and they hav n r ig h t to f i l e , s u i t o r . J . 3 to ch allen g e my in te r p r e ta tio n o f th e .law o r Monsanto13 i n t e r - , ,4 .' 5 p re ta tio n o f,th e . law, and I 'd l i k e ,th Jury to understand th a t, ' 6 " because counsel suggested and t h e w itn ess agreed th a t i f th e 7 EPA d i d n 't lik e th e way Monsanto was, in te r p r e tin g th e law, th a t , 8 . th e EP could f i l s u i t a g a in s t Monsanto and ch allen g e them, and o f course, th a t is ;n o t th e law. 9 - JO` ' 11 12 . MR. MUSGRAVE: .}T f T suggested .t h a t , VI only meant to ' ' -- - ' V' . V ; * , i \ i ''.J',', i . - i f' ^- * '4 sug g est, yr Honor, through a c tio n s t h a t Monsanto might tak e ' - - ` > " ' ' i ' II. '''O, \ & r`V ./ t' th a t th e EPA would say you re in y io 1a tio n o f ,the i r p o lic y , ; 13 and.then they ' would p -. u.rsvu"-e -^5I--itIr.*. i' JJ.i * * f-VL-i''r^, 5 c:-*f,-v. --V ' ' J 4 THE COURTi I.a g re e w ith i t w ith t h a t a d d itio n , b e- > , 15 / 16 cause the in te rp re ta tio n w ouldhave to be evident vin an a c tio n t h a t someone took. V17``1 ' . v- MR. MUS,GRAVEt\ ` W ell, I meant - r ` . 18 . ' THE .COURT:' I t / c u l d n 't be j u s t ~ .19 . MR. MUSGRAVE: C e rta in ly . I agree t o t a l l y . I ; 20 c e rta in ly .m e a n t to in f e r t h a t , i f I . d i d n ' t , then i t has been t clarified. ' / ' - ' 21 22 THE COURT: I b e lie v e i t has been c l a r i f i e d now. .. 23' - Thank you. >*, 24 ` MR, MUSGRAVE: .l1 r i g h t . - RENGAD C O ., BAYO N N E. N ,J, '` ` *, , - # f ' hp, t ' t 4 < .' . * '^ ^ . >LjL\ ^ . '1 1 Q . . T he.point being; Mr: Park, t h a t - - w a ll, s t r i k e ' 2 ^ th a t. '.Nowi-gfn^the course o f Mr. C a rr's exam ination o f you I 3 thought I'h e a rd you mention a t one time something about th e ir 4 being no ju d ic ia l o r ad m in istrativ e law In te rp re ta tio n o f th is 5 ^statute. ' A T h at's c o rre c t, th e re .have been none. '6 7 Q 1 There have been no ri- ? .^ ' '- ' 8 9 10 11 . A -.Not' _r - ' ^ " Q Action t h a t t h e E P A has challenged th at.h av e gone ; to court to see whether an actio n did or d id n 't v io la te t h e ' .1 ' ' ' . f.".-,. i ` . .>_h '-,,'-AL' . ` '-`Vi '?-? ' ".s='<-, '<r*'"t-.. "t` ' ^ ' `.`> r; law ,and the p o lic y o r in te rp re ta tio n - o f ' t h e EPA? v - 12 ' A In s o fa r as 8(e) i s co n cern ed .. - - 13 - , *a:- i f . "'2. ' . `` - v** Q Yesi \ - , ........ V ^ ' 14 ' A O ther EPA a c tio n under; ther p ro v isio n s o f th e Toxic. V IS " Substance Control Act have been tak en , a few o th e r p ro v isio n s. 16 MR.. CARR: Your Honor, thej jury,m ay be m islead . Th . 17 f a c t is th a t no one has been prosecuted by th e EPA under, the. - 18;: crim in al p ro v isio n o f th is act; ch at re q u ire d an I n te r p r e ta tio n . 19 o f th e a c t. I t ' s n o t t h a t th e ' and counsel i s ag a in , .1 20 th in k , m isleading th e ,ju ry . There has to be -V th e EPA has 21 to know th a t someone'has; v io la te d th e a c t and has to decide ; ' 22 th a t i t ' s v io la tio n worthy o f p ro se c u tio n . They have to have 23 th e knowledge, and they have t o , decide to b rin g a 1crim in al . 24', - ^action against that \k person th at t. .j 4 ' _* is violating * * the ' law. I think 60 .1 . ,th a t should be made c le a r ; '. '- - ., 2 : MR. MUSGRAVE: AlI I am in d ic a tin g , your Honor, i s 3 \ t h a t th e re are no ju d ic ia l. In te r p r e ta tio n s .of t h i s s ta t u t e th a t 4 t h i s w itness -i s fa m ilia r w ith . .'A ` f * ' -* , 5 A ; Could ;I ` -v . " . 1J .... 6 ,HE COURT: F in. thn 1 'th in is fc should be e l a r l f i a f ' 7 . . lik e t h a t , and 1 think; t h e .c l a r i f i c a t i o n makes i t c le a r e r fo r 8 th e ju ry and* on th e reco rd . You may; continue, Mr. Musgrave. :'?; 9v. -'AV- Can I f in is h th e'an sw er th a t I 1was - - 10 w Q. . Yes, you may, f i n i s h . - `} 11 -V . , the.COURT: O h v ^ Ird id n 't^ realizh .,y o u h a d n 't fin is h e d 12 your answ er. ' i `V r . >, `-V . v1 - * * ' t ** T. -- > . -^ *- - " *, ? .. 13 ' 14 J 15' ' THE WITNESS: ^ ;iv U: '-il - : *; ' V ^ v .-A ' ' . THE COURT: Go ahead. / . L.f - .1' > f '7^ 1. j`yr ' - A , A s.I was going to" sa y ,' le t* a 'see; -th e sta tu te :w a s ' 16 , adopted, as 1- r e c a l l ; in O ctober, 1976.e f f e c tiv e January 1 o f ' 17 177, and during 'the p erio d sin c e then th e re have' been only two 18 com plaints! issu ed by, th e EFA a lle g in g v io la tio n o f S ectio n 8(e) ,V 19 . One o f these was se v e ra l years ago: a g a in s t American Cyanamid, . 20 and th e second was very re c e n tly ,!-'ju st a month o r two ago ' 21 22 ' *,, - i, ' '23> ag ain st'U n io n C arbide. The f i r s t one was not. c o n te ste d . The second one. i s in such an e a rly stag e h ere th a t i t ' s n o t known: yet w hat's going to happen. A 24 ! Q- ;A ll r i g h t . ; : , f ; . fo rm il 1 4 r a tr o H N E . n .j . o r o o t 61 1 A But th ere has beeri.no ju d ic ia l,in te rp re ta tio n of . 2 Section 8(e) 3 Q . G etting back to the s ta tu te though i t s e l f , you as a 4 lawyer and .in siinply reading th is s ta tu te and tnaybe even as ,a- s .: layman from the; p la iir language o f i t where i t ta lk s about any , . 6 person who .m anufactures, pro cesses o r d is tr ib u te s in commerce >7 v . '& chemical, substance, o r m ix tu re, and: then i t .s t a t e s , `and who, >\ 8 : obtains inform ation which reasonably supports .the conclusion -v, 9 th at such substance or mixture presents a su b stan tial ris k of 10 1 in ju ry , to h e a lth o r th e rivirotmient,. ,.and then i t says,, s h a ll 11 im m ediately inform th e a d m in istra tio n o f such in fo rm atio n , . ' ' . " . - ' * *i-.i>-i i. ' ' i;*', !* '.' - ' /vV. ' > ' 12 what in fo rm atio n 'd o you read th a t in th ia p la in ,,language o f . t h e 13, s ta tu te to. be being ta lk e d about, s ir? L V - p y *.V,Y p v r.P r J L'; / 14 A, . I t would be inform ation in d ic a tin g ^ 's u b s ta n tia l r i s k 15 o f. i n j u r y . .. *.vS . f ' * *i" , ' r `. i Tvir ' f;U ** 16 Q . Inform ation"w hichkreasonably supports th e conclusion? 17. A ' V-Yes; - ' " 18 Q .. That the m ix tu re, th ..chemical o r th e m ixture -- 19 A ' P r e s e n t s a s u b s ta n tia l r i s k , . 20 Q - - p re se n ts s u b s ta n tia l r i s k o f in ju ry to the healdh 21 o r th e environment? ' / 22 ' : r. A^ - .R ight, , 7* *- / j 23 Q Now - - And then i t ' s th a t inform atiori th a t support 24 th a t conclusiori th a t has to be re p o rte d , s ir ? t V, ,' iw's 62 1 A That's correct., , 2 - Q Unless the EPA/lready has th at, inform ation? . 3 A' T h at1s r i g h t . ; /. ^ v ` 4 / q Now so th e q u estio n i s what I s t h a t in fo rm atio n a s 5 set out in th .sta tu te th at supports th is conclusion, is th a t 6. . ' r ig h t? ' ` _'/' '. ' 7 A - That's rig h t., / / . ^ ;J '8.-, Q ;' Now i f you had ;t ank c a r, - s i r f th a t was. f i l l e d w ith , 9 l e t 's say, :2,3 , 7, 8 TCDD and you n o tif ie d the EPA-th a t you had 10 a tank c a r th at.w as f i l l e d w ith 2 , 3 , 7 , 8 TCDD and you cold them n . nothing more, s i r , would th a t in and o f i t s e l f be inform ation 12 th a t supports th e ; conclusion th a t th. substance r, m ixture ` .-V v. ' f / : i f / / :'f ' ' 13 presents- a .s u b s ta n tia l r i s k p f .Injury/xo/i^-d- h e a lth o r th e 14 . environment? ` `O t* \ * ` .} \ .;! ^ ! . . i i." 15 A ,1 don't th in k th a t would b s u f f ic ie n t. 16 ` : Q That -the EPA 'dldnitfknow,. Abbuti ^ le lf^ /p u t^ i t th a t way. '17 ; \ A /Umbra, - . / :'1 / , ' / ' * . `.V : i8 j ^ Q Your answer, s ir ? v /- / 1 9 ./ A . I th in k th a t something^ more"would be r e q u ir e d / 21 Q Maybe t h a t 's an /6v e r d ra m a tiz a tio n , but th e Inform atio a 21 then i s what1do you know ab o u t. th e e f f e c ts o f t h i s product th a t 22 make i t cause a s u b s ta n tia l r i s k o f in ju ry to h e a lth o r th e. 23 environment?;' 24 A , Yes* what are th e h e a lth e f f e c t s . / B A YO N N E. N .jL / l. . vi 'h - '1^%V"**> ^>1<il ' > * iV* t mQ Q A l l r i g h t . Now then tu rn in g t o t h e p o lic y and th e; ; - / / `w - v , ' . V K* / EPA's in te rp rie ta tio n .of tliia s t a t u t e , I 'd lik e to d ir e c t your j 3 , a t t e n t i o n / f i r s t - 'o f a l l , to th e th ir d column on th e f i r s t page v . 1' , ' - - *, . .K ,, * V . L .- - 't ` 7 ,T * down, th e r e /a t th e bottom Ju n d e r.Item No'. IV; I t s ta te s "Numerous . s' . commantors re q u e ste d .;c ia r lf c a tio n o f .d if f e r e n t a sp e c ts o f Vh ` s V ' .'v . / :V'' / ` 6 k /P a r t IV o f ;;th e >September 9 /p ro p o sa l." - Was; th e re an e a r l i e r J v 1 .7 * ^proposal ;6 a fp o lic y th a t /had" been commented on? - *^- f" . ' *J '* ' - - *, ' . r ' ' f , ! i* ~ >; ^ " l -r . , j. - 1. ! ' > 'V .; s -' < _ . ; 8'- A / ;.Yes. `. i s t h a t / P a r t V7-.. v,- . j. j"r - . . * t- ^ : ^ , ,9'/ : Q Yes //P a r t V, I 'm /so rry , Roinan numefai y . ^ /f , (f ;. (A I th in k th e re was .an e a r l i e r p u b lic a tio n where th e ? 11 EPA d i d a s k f o r some .commont s a n d some were made. i; . ^ ';,12^ q <7 And th a t P a rt V; they thcn id e n tif ie d by p u ttin g i t 1 13 ' . t e p a re n th e sis and i t says ,>th a t, being in form ation which 14 re a so n a b ly su p p o rts a c o n c lu s io n o r S u b s ta n tia l risk ? .j' 15 ^ .... a ," t e s ;.-'t . # .7 v L-Zrf - 4 k " ' . . , -J` - 7V1 ' ' ' V,. > 1-T* ' ` J-. ' ' V. q \ ' <~ % ' *^'--< V , V. ' V V - <f-v-t '. L v .>. 16 . Q And they go on and say p a r tic u la r ly concerning envlro^i 17 mental e ffa c ts /a n d su g g ested 1d iffe re n t, in te r p r e ta tio n s o f w hat:> -.is./ L" " 19V r tt .-20 c o n stitu te s a/ sub s t a n t i a i r is k /and th e n c it, s ta te s , does i t n ot s ir , ^ T h d ^ ^ ^ y ^ c ^ tln ^ s V ^ ^ fo c ^ ^ ^ -th is policy statem ent ' on the e ffe c ts s e t fo rth in :th e September 9;proposal, but -;2i c la r if ie s that.-the s u b s ta n tia lity o f a r i s k .i s a function of ^ ' * "\ ' -c i;:V ' / V`;, :.V:; v- : / / / ' ^ 'v- / '/ "22' both t h e ' seriousneee -J th e : e f f e c t and t h e .p ro b a b ilty o f i t s > " 23- ; o c c u r r e n c e . a n d then i t -r e f e r s th e readier to P a rt Roman1numeral. .24' V o f th is -p o lic y ; statem ent* i s n 't , th a t c o rr c t? ,, : . A iL *( ' ' 1 ^L ^ ' h ^^ *` "^ W". ' ^ V ^^- J A-' \ n ^ 'L ' `- -` "/ . ! / / T *. 4^'* v V- v " n\- ' " 1 A %T h a t ' s , c o r r e c t . ; V ' ; ; 11 ' ' 2 Q So a t- th e o u ts h t'- h e r e th e y 'r e t a l k i n g w ith .r e g a r d to 3 w h a t c o n s t i t u t e s a s u b s t a n t i a l r i s k t o tw o f u n c t i o n s . O ne i s - 4 th e se rio u sn e ss^ o f" th e . e f f e c t o f th is c h e m ic a l o r m ix tu re o f . 5 - .c h e m ic a ls " is r T t t h a t c o r r e c t ? / . " > -Iv ;> .-r: 6 A T h a t ' s r i g h t . f \ * U 'V : . A r w U r -'\ c i " :C' . i .V j 7 - Q A .n d v>s e c o n' d i s * >- 0r .<- *~ a n d .r-tJ-hi .e 'Vs-e *c o" n 'd V" -i rs t'h' e f a c t o .r 8 p ro b a b ility -o f i t s o ccu rren ce? . ?` A Vea lBi 1 *. ' '" ' ' f't \ V'-' ,V, i , ", i - . ,, . , %- ^ - .s' J' 10 ; ' Q ... A n d t h o s e tw o . ' f u n c t i o n s a r e c o n n e c t e d .-by t h e w o r d " . 11 ` " a n d " , a>rr e . t 1h *eiy : n o t , sr i r , ? V . : s ^% - i , 1 . ..,,' ^ k` 12 13 v A\ .Q Y es. .r t t'Li r " " ^ ' '***'* r i Acid d o e s t h a t n o r m a l l y - m e a n t h a t ./ ^' b o th .o f th em . --- , ` m ust l :14 b e . p r e s e n t f o r t h e r e t o b e a d e t e r m i n a t i o n t h a t t h e r e i s a s u b - 1 \5 s ta n t ia l risk ? . ` `\ 1 " V \ v. * ^ 16 A Y es. - . \ - ". - ' - ' ' ' . ; '1 7 / ' 18 Q A I t ' s ' n o t e i t h e r / o r , - o n e * o r t h o t h e r , i t ' s ,b o t h ? " ` , ' . `V , T h .\ r o r d b o th i s u s e d in t h a t s e n te n c e . ,1 . 19 ' Q A 1 . r i g h t .. Now .t h e s e r i o u s n e s s o f t h ' e f f e c t , -w h ic h .20 i s o n e o f t h e s e t w o "f u n c t i o n s o f rw h a t c o n s t i t u t e s . a s u b s t a n t i a l 21 r i s k , t h a t [ s r e f e r r e d t o i n P a r t V o f t h i s p o l i c y s t a t e m e n t , - 22, '- i s .23.. t i t n o t ? / V. . j V^ j A P a r t -V . d e s c r i b e s *. w h a t.c o n s titu te s . >v / .,, .r s u b s ta n tia l r i s k s . . .^ 24 - * ' V'* o Q R ig h t; And i t ta lk s -a b o u t th e .e f f e c ts , does i t :n o t? `, *, ^ 1 - / ' " *' -- * '* ^ PENGAO C O .. B A Y N N E ..H .J 0 J 0 O J . PONM IL 14 S ,, .- y -p . '' ' r 1-' ' i, ' '. *I``Vf //.- ' '5k'. ' "' ` ,,, ' , , .' ir <.y .- i `^.Vij yy . - . . r. . - .- ,, '. , " *' * '*v '. . J -i.-i'fr1 . . % - - V 1 --. 'O' . *r- -.-L%., , -r'. .- .. . . - ^, ' 1. " t 1 '' \ i >r~. L, -,/ '' * 65 '` 1 A Y.;r%' -. _ ' > . ^ " V > s / - ' V \ y ^ ; y' 2, Q - Turning t o :thesecondZ pago o f `th e x h ib it *th e re in yLz1 3 ' Colman 3 on th e f a r Z r i g h tt h e r e *s ' th e s e c tio n t h a t connnenees.wi :h; the" heading Kornn Stkcerai V, V/hat -C o n stitu te s S u b s ta n tia l Risk j" ' i. . 4 ..; , / * ./ ,v -y - , /' " \ r ` L'- -- ..- : 5 ,; /and, i t says a t the,beginning" th e re , A s u b s ta n tia l r i s k o f in ju ry 6 to h ealth o r tha envirotxnsht is ; a' rlsk ' o f considerable concern - ` 7' because o f (a ) , ^the serip n sn esa o f tW . e f f e c t , and than i t refers you to see Subpartc a , b, c, below fo r i l lu s t r a ti v e ; 8 , - 9 .e f f e c ts o f concern;. - - V ; ; f'.v.-.; % -' r ' - "V- ' ,1 I '^ * r. ^ 'P t1 io ; / ^ . A ?./ That s c o rre c t * ` A, * . 1 ` 3h ' ; p: i(j ; > -/ / / ~7- *- " y^h-- ,,i /. 11 Q - y ? o . h e r e , i t fs saying okay^ th a se tw o /fu n c tio n s, th e , w T^H1 . ' r . *f i r s7| t" o^ne being ' serio u sne*ers^s o f e f f e^c t , tahat W e're ta lk in g about "* ' lr ' - ^ t^ ^ y y n . are things 'lik e'5.*,'!' b , and e> i s chat 'sight? Vf V 4V -. -A That's .c'rractv a r;-r.>;, . W ' v - ^ - r-''; ' ' ' . . ' 15 i ,J - -- . J' - ' v1 Vt J* * v j' " \ j . i^i i " j f t ^s v Q So l e t 's ju s t 'gd 'noW to^ v by and c , which ara then , 16' ^ ' 17 , *j p ' , ' , ,18 , followed on .the next' pega'rftd^a)^ talkarabout human h ealth . /' . effects? ^ ' \ \ / .;V-^,/>/v . V-j *-/*'' - / / ; ' i . v- / - ,!. . A . -T h a t's/rig h t* ;< ;'v^ ^ j h Vy* y : ^ - >. ' 19/ , p` Q- X'8-that Wight? '/-h.' / / :. > ` ^ ; SV>, / - y i * ' " V * - - .. r i ' - v . * : ` ' S p . -1 . > / 20 r`^' \ A , T h a t's c o rre c t;.^ ^ //' . r 1 "^ /l ' Q v And i t speake o f -hucian heaith e f f a c t s , and i t d escrib ; y 2i - v l V;-' \r. \<yy . 'y - '/:>*22 % ^sot, cencerV b irc h d e fe c ts , etc,,r o r se rio u s o r prolonged in - c, ' .- `23-; . c a p a c ita tio h , in c lu d in g th e lo s s o f o r e b i l i t y to: u s normal i ^ .,24 > ;` bodily fuetiost nd `i t '- v / - - goes oh whatever ,,.but that V " ,y PENCAD C O ... aA lfO N N E, N .J, *p' \ * 1 F, - * / r L, ' ' .1 ....._ L > *. . "i ( - V , ( F #? ^ * w i 'kt, V' ^' A* * 3 " ` \p y S., 66 A That's rig h t. \-p - Q But t h a t 's one type o f serious effect?, , ;\ > .V > %'J`V v:'-. V ' ' w 3 A ./Rights ^ " <i * ; 4 Q , -z th a t,th e y * re saying; co n stitu tes- su b s ta n tia l risk ? ' 5 a ' Human h e a lth 'e f f e c ts r i g h t . . is Q And then they go'oh down, letV s, j u s t go to (b) h e re . - J; 7 They t a l k about' anvironm antal 'a f f e c t s , wide /spread and p re v io u sly 8' unsuspected d is tr ib u tio n in environm ental.m edia as in d ic a te d in 9 stu d ies, excluding m aterial contained w ithin appropriate d is ' - 1.0 posal. f a c i l i t i e s , a n d . i t 's g ot an o th er example under 2 a n d .3 an<ji M ,4 th e re i does i t not? , v ' / , , . , . ; . l-'V- k ; \ - 1 v, v ... ' r. ", / ' ,; ^ \ `` J 12 - - A v . Yes i:, w V - \ ` >'J' - *-\ ! ^ .; 13 Q *,So you've got human h e a lt h ,e f f e c t s , environm ental 14 e ffe c ts ,- and th e l a s t se rio u s e f f e c t t h a t they t a l k about Is 15 (c) down (th e re a t th e b6ttom .o f ,..th is ..f ir s t! column,.on th e th ir d 1- -1 - >, a , -.--J , i V *' > * V - V 1 *` 1. , . ' - 4 .1 f ^ v ^ ^ > / y. 16 page, emergency in c id e n ts of^environm ental, contam ination? ,;i7 . a ` Y-es,-. . / -* ` ' iQ.>s. .,i-. \"\.rSt. ji'rV-iv, vu, `' jim- i.-* `^7.- ` ^ 18 Q . And does th a t ta lk , about w ell, l e t 's ju st read l? i t . I t says "Any environm ental contam ination, by a> chemical ` 20 substance o r m ixture to which any o f .th e above' adverse e f fe c ts ' 21 - - those a r e ; the ones we've j l is t been through r - 22 A `Y e s , - , s i r . , ; L.; \ / v v ' ' - 23 Q "- " h a s been d escrib ed and which because o f th e .. v`24- p a tte r n , e x te n t and amount o f th e contam inant, and then i t goes P E N G A D C O .. BA YO N N E, N .J. * - *:' j ' ^\ '-'^ V r* *->*' ^^ * . * * 'r * > ,, 4 - * i ' j ( V 'i v1 /\ ti}* * . 1 S r * r : t r ; . > / > ) ' i r v a f s - .* ';. 5 ... 67 1 r l 3 * - " `- ii'" " 0 -r i..? _ , ' > \ /i" \ i ,` - . ` . ; a h e a d an d ta lk s a g a in a b o u t' s e r io u s ly th r a t n s h u m a n s w ith L cancer ., _ ' " t and th o se -. ; ' 1' , ' .v 'V * * , ty p e s '> o f,t e f f e c ts "p re v io u sly ; d e sc rib e d ? ' ,v ,, -v - 1 7 '- i.-* ! 1 r - " *, ^ . i - . :: ' : A R ig h t , ;: , , - ` "4 - Q . So i n lo o k in g d t th e . f i r s t f u n c tio n , o f t h i s t e s t ,o f 5 *' s u b s ta n tia l r is k to s e e i f 't h e r e i s One th e r e ; o n e c o n s id e rs . 6 t h e s e r i o u s n e s s o f , t h e e f f e c t a n d d o e s .- it 'm e e t t h e t y p e s o f ; , 7 `. . e x a m p l e s t h a t EP h a s g i v e n , \ i s n t t h a t c o r r e c t ? ; i ,. 81 ' ` '9 1^ , * 10 \ "s 11 - , . . \ T h a t * s r i g h t * .. . ,/ ^ * .. r * . k,, ' --* *4 >' t ^ i ' ^\ ' '' *v ' *> l- 4 - \ r Q Now i n l o o k i n g a t t h e s e r i o u s n e s s o f t h e e f f e c t d o : ;; y o u lo o k a t th e p ro d u c t t h a t i s in f r o n t o f y o u , th e m ix tu re ^ o f c h e m ic a ls t h a t a r e i n i t a s . i t i s th e r e a n d d e te rm in e w h eth er: . 12 t h a t 'c h e m ic a l, a s c o n s t i t u t e d w ith th o s e m ix tu r e s a n d l e v e l s o f i i d if f e r e n t c h e m ic a ls in i t , w h e th e r i t h a s a s e rio u s e f f e c t? - !4 . A I t f s th e e n tir e p ro d u c t. 5-. , tJ* f ; 1 6 , 'L.' ] Q . I t^ s th e > j* * , H p .A . ,:' Y e Q . e n tir e p ro d u c t? * , .,* 4 . v, M 1^ . * r 1 Lr > * ," .T ' v \ L" 4 *- _, - n ; L Q I w a n t to c o n tin u e o n t h a t I h a . m in u te b u t b e f o r e ! ' . 18 d o , i f y o u w ere h y p o th e tic a lly s p e a k in g , to d e te rm in e t h a t a ' - 19 . p a r t i c u l a r p r o d u c t d i d c a u s e o n e o f t h e s e s e r i o u s e f f e c t s a f t e r . 20 lo o k in g a t th a e n tir e , p ro d u c t^ a n d yo u h ad in fo rm a tio n , an d w e 'l l 21 t a l k a b o u t w h a t k i n d , o f i n f o r m a t i o n t h a t I s ' i n a ' m i n u t e , b u t ; * 22 y o u h a d in f o r m a tio n 'th a t t o l d y o u t h a t th e r e w as a s e r io u s "23 e f f e c t , t h e n t h e s e c o n d f u n c t i o n a l s o : h a s t o b e c o n s i d e r e d a s / 1 J'' 2 4 '; ' / s t a t e d i n t h e ; p o l i c y , d o e s (i t n o t ? . FORM ,!L Z B l . V - > .: * v , 1 '- ,'/ t,l -v'*;i:;*li"---.-\i`"<\f-vj'-P'C,i-iS?!.i,?!"'-.` , V?'i. i^ S\i J r^ . ' e ; * - 1 1., ' - t`J % c* 68 1 - - -.' A ".Yes. - j'7 '. \ ' : *. > \ ", tr> W/i ^ V1- -/;' *, `2 ' Q And th a t seco n d .fu n ctio n then i s th e p ro b a b ility o f , . 3. i t s occurrence? . - / / ' s r- yy ^ ,f i-:' if *.^ v " y v> v ; .4 A '/ .T h at's rig h t. / -.i - \ . '/^ 5- Q . I s n 't th a t rig h t? Now* going back to..Page 2 o f thiB . ,6 where we V - in th a t f a r r ig h t hand column under Roman Numeral ' 7 /. .V w hich. c o n s titu te s s u b s ta n tia l r is k ; we p o in ted o u t t h a t th e - ,8/ - se rio u sn e ss o f th e e f f e c t as d e sc rib e d ,o r as examples a re / 1 9 d escrib ed in a . b , and c , which w e've been through, and Mr. 10 C arr th en picked o u t o f t h e / e n t i r e co n tex t o f t h i s / p o l i c y 11 statem en t o f se v e ra l pages one sentence here on p l a i n t i f f 's *> 12 * E x h ib it 1293,. and. th a t sentence i s contained j u s t below th a t,. *y 13 p o rtio n o f Paragraph Roman Numeral V t h a t we ware re a d in g fro m 14 when we got; o yer to what th e se rio u s e f f e c ts w ere, i s n ' t th a t 15 ` ( 16 . 'i ^ . 1 1 17./ ic o rf e c t? J- 'v ^ .. A Yesv Q ; And in f a c t , V I:'" ' V. : ; / , ` ` 7 V: ' j;' -7 : ' > -:V/ in th e beginning o f Roman Numeral V b'a y o i v n e , n . j . o i o o i / I a f t e r i t l i s t s and r e f e r s you to .a, b; and c fo r th e serfousnestji V 19 :: o f e f f e c ts t h a t th e y 'r e ta lk in g about, i t th en goes ion tand says V 20 ' and (b), I t r e i t e r a t e s again the second fu n c tio n o f what ,con- 21 : 'V 22 23 1 24 s t i t u t e s a s u b s ta n tia l r i s k , i t sa y s,;'and (b), :the f a c t o r prob a b ility , o f its^occinrrence: And then i t goes oh; does i t n o t, and s ta r ts to ta lk about exposure and what you look a t w ith . regard to exposure when, you,have s a t i s f i e d th e f i r s t fm etlx>n. 69 tf k S 7, * " fS N i p * s v iff' - / a- -y /* r-y -ti.. f . f " . . ,* -V /f `-/i. i \ \ \ . 1' f ' ' , - v i > > <r 1 . . " v ' i ' - N 1 * 5,` ...* ,, does i t :n o t? . / / c < 7. . ' / 7 \* / ' * * - * --, * / "r '- 1' ", ' - , " * '.s 'i'V - if* .2 ' A ~ Y e s . . . ` -'1 - s- ; - V 3 Q Whenyouhave determined th a t th e re lis a serio u s e f f e c t . * . .'L* / v ' .^ -`;' ; . \ ,f. t,r--* r *>/ ,. ^*' /;-ft x.-> ; .,, 4 And in f a c t .i t s ta te s / .these" two c r ite r io n ,' t h a t i s , t h , , -/ 5 seriousness of, the e ffe c t and the fa c t or. p ro b ab ility of ita;, 6 occurrence; a re d if fe re n tiy weighted fo r d i f fe re n t :types o f . 7 e f f e c ts .. I t-s a y s th e human h e a lth ff s ct s d e s c r ib e d in Sub- ; ` 8 * paragraph (a) below, / th e one we j u s t r e a d i t - ; s a y s i f you1ve ^ '9 got th a t kind f se rio u s e f f e c t and/you'v e "a lre a d y e s ta b lis h e d / 10 t h a t you've got th a t kind o f se rio u s e f f e c t , th EPA then sa y s/ ^ *.i \ ' ' ' -i ' F^ ^1 ' 1 1 ,, " l> - - I ,u h *v ,, \ " 1 *-.j J i - .,* 1 i _. r j i ** .> 11. in i t s p o licy /s ta tementi does i t n o t,/.s ir, ^that they are so , 12* serious th a t re la tiv e ly l i t t l e weight is given to aspo sure? ; V 13 ; t A JV .Yes; V - * ; ._/ / v.. ; / \ F, -, 14 Q . So i f you have e s ta b lis h e d th e f i r s t / f u n c t i o n o f th l 15 t e s t , th a t I s , -that you have a se rio u s h e a lth o r s e rio u s , as / 16 , they say, ar se rio u s e f f e c t from t h i s chemical o r I t s m ix tu re,; j 17 then you g iv e l i t t l e w e ig h t,, - - l i t t l e w eight to exposure . / . 18 Li n /determ iiig whether i t has, to fee re p o rte d even though i t . i s 19 / a s e rio u s h e a lth e f f e c t ? . ' : ' / ; r / . . / / ', "'!j' ` t **' - F. 20 ; *" A . ` Yes . . J ^* 1 j \^ h - r ` - ,, , ,/\ ' " >t_ ' , j . ' 21 Q -Now, l e t ' s g e t back to th f i r s t fu n c tio n , tho serio u ^ 22 e f f e c t . You to ld s', I dbllev, th a t you look a t th e e n tir e " . * ^ v 1 . / ' 's , ,s , ... : 23 -chemical1 th a t you 'v e got th e re and its'm akeup' and /th e p o rtio n s . <if. 1 "' 24 : o th er chem icals th a t might be ; in i t to. determ ine i f th whole -j* / 1. ' < . * \ ; ; . v . u ** - j, . - - t J ; FO RM I L 2 4 D, PEN GAD C O ,, B A YO N N E, N .J.! 07002 \v - 70 'S. 1S i C t -<' , . / ' -7 . 1 r ^_ r\ i7-7; `\. 1 v> 7'* 7 v'>77 '" >':v-r'') . -v- , -.V>- 7 . 1 or-any p o rtio n s iri i t a t those. lo y ls ' wold have o n e o f these; 7 " ''f2 J se rio u s e f f;eeccttss t i s n 't th a t, co rrect?; ; 7 >7. n. 1 v ^ <777- 3' ' A Yes, th e e n tire ;p ro d u c t is"'considered;,^ >:" , ,,7 7 ^ 4 Q- A n d t o determ ine i f ; t h e r e i s a- s e r io u s - e f f e c t what i i. ' S- * .. V ' *. . " -^ > ;?"* ; .L - - s r - * >* ., ( -H V i r, s,, --- - - 1 - ' - t , i f. . 5> you're supposed to r e p o r tf gQ tting back to th e meaning o f , th % i 6 > s t a t u t e , i s in fo rm atio n , ;is a I t ; t h a t ; r i g h t ? L>v,, - 7 ' , A '-,;'..That'-S ri'g*ht',7 ; 1 - ` ?/'*' >}['- ' { : ; ^ c,, ' 'v-8 *- Q 7 Inform ation :Whichvreasonably ^supports th e co n clu sio n 9; .1 0 . , . -` - v - , . th a t the-substance o r mixture presents su b stan tial: ris k o f . ' 11 `-.v: \ : - ; ' !v- 'j ; ,7, ,v. ; . :j r 1,1, -' i r 7! ^j ^> fc r ^ . ` ' j ^ ^. j - 1 - - w--h ' * ^ in ju ry . So. you have to have inform ation w hich-reasonably. ; i . ; il,;,* G.' su p p o rts tth e conclus io n of., both fu n c tio n s b f what c o n s t! t te s _J: V 1 2 s u b s ta n tia l r i s k ,, se rio u s e f f e c t and .expo su re , a l l r ig h t ? 7\; ; 13 ; -A'-* \Yeiff..' 7 ,7 ..: \ ,r` . , 7 ^ 'v 'J'-l 14 ,. ? ; : Q > . Now, -th e r e 1s a d e f in itio n of. s u b s ta n tia l r i s k In f o r 15 \ ination. 7 What kind o f in fo rm a tio n a r e .we ta lk in g about , . a n d don 16 v 'v.; they 1 ; - ;-v 7 -,n7^ - defina. th a t in th is 'i-*7-' .^ :71 r ,v . policy statecaant? ; ' ..7 - s 7 ^ 7/ ^"'7'7-' 7/7 7 W O i, ^ 700X0 T N ` 3NNOAVfl 17. \ A: They do, b u t' they d efih e i t in te rm s;0f , i t s e l f . 18 Q A l l r i g h t , And t h a t 's again though on Page 2? / : i?j. > 1 .20 21 ; 22 v -S 23 ' >24 A ilteirni-.y 7-' 7'.; .*"7 ' 7 4 Q U^n7d e:r'.d.e7f-in itio nvsr*7i`s,7n>-'t7. 'I>t ?" ' 7' 4: A ,Yes. ; n' 7 .7- / 7 ` T." 7 v \ i ; .v7'' ; ! .l ' ` j .> J \ '. A * ^ 'W " SL 1' / i. " t Q, lb the f i r s t , column',7Page 2? ? * .' ^l A Right,. L ast paragraph under ^ d e fin itio n s. ; tsl Q Uhrhuh. And i t says the- term s u b s ta n tia l r i s k inform 1 .'> < 71 'I 2 3 4 4: V _ 5 6 7, - ,, 8 '* ? io *' 1 1 12. ^ 13 14 15 16 , *' 17 - 18 19 20 21 , 22 23 '-.,2 4 motion means; inform ation which,, reasonably supports th e con-; ' * ' vV^r-;*;-f- >--v - \ elu sio n th a t a chemical i substance ,o r m ixture' p re se n ts a sub- . 4 r ; r .,- j \ v :- .. s ta n tia l risk o f injury to health or the environment, right? Yes. ' r ,i; >^ ' -V V"S-'&`?i'.<s 'rsSt i. ,, `:y-J;VV*. . Q . S o,that is almost usingythe very,language o f what is : *, - -1 ` ' n ' V i / n . r - ' being defined to define its e lf? * A"`:\,YeWV - ' - V. -V " Q But do they hot-have in th e p o lic y statem ent, an d th er sectio n th a t deals on th is to p ic o f su b stan tial, ris k iriformitioiji? A S ection VI d escrib es; th e n a tu re . N Q All r i g h t T h a t ' s on tha th ird page,; i s n ' t i t ? \ -A Yes/umhm. T h e n a tu re and, source s o t in fo rm atio n . Q So t h e r e 's a whole se c tio n in h ere t h a t d ea ls w ith -- i t ' s e n t i t l e d S ection Roman Numeral VI, Nature and Sources o f Inform ation which Reasonably/ Supports the Conclusion o f S u b stan tial/R isk ? \ - . ' ' A 'Yes; . . ,.y'*; . V , y .. " ` t' ,Q . So in th is se c tio n th e y 'r e going to f in a l l y t e l l us what kind o f inform ation i s t h i s we'va got to -have d r th a t we Xw 1 l ^ .Sr "y ' r' ^1 5N. I -t N ' ' look a t to determ ine i f th e re i s a s u b s ta n tia l: r i s k , i f th e re are serious effects? ^ J l: A.'y. T h a t's r i g h t >' v ' /y y *-*" " , * 'y ^ MR. MUSGRAVE1 Your Honor, would th is , be a good point?, -w / ` - '' ' ' ^ ,, FO H M -IL 24 PCNGAO C O ,, BA YO N N E, N .J, 07002 72 1 . THE COURT: : You going in to a new action? '2 ` , MR. MUSGRAVEi* Yes nfine- ^ ,-a 3 n ;THE COURT.: Ladies -and :"gentlemen# we.'11 break f o r , . 4 lunch a t t h i s t imaV We,l resume :again';-at rx V30 . :LThe admonish- .. ^ ^ ,-/V,'- v y. v . 5 menta which I 've given you e a r l i e r w ill apply during th is lunch 6 i break also ; C ourt's in recssi 1 - l> 7su f,<; 7: 8"^' 9 , : 10 : L 1 " / ' *' 7,f 11 7 -12 ' -il , 3 i_ 13 14 ' is ; 16 fj * 1 - i " 17 18 : 19 . ... 20 21 . 22' t , r \ . i.i - 23",. 1 24' S' BAroNNE. N.J. 07002 . '-4 V* I , ' ' 4,I i STATE OF ILLINOIS ). ) SS . 2; COUNTY.OF ST. CLAIR "') /V, 3' '4T i'1;'i> . :Vv;" - ji*v- ,X' , ';>F.^>,v t , /ft.y; >-'Vo' - 'r*V;v\;--r^'l " -u '*> V' ,/:i;-MARSHA SCHNIPPER, one o f th e O f f ic ia l Gourt'. Ra- ;f ' f t ' . ? i- i ^ n, 5 p o rte rs i n a n d fo r the T w antieth; Ju d ic ia l" C irc u it o f th e S ta te 73 6 ` : o f I l l i n o i s , and the O f f ic ia l Court R eporter who re p o rte d the 7 proceeding a had a t th e h earin g p f Frances E. Kerene r , e t a l y. . ' ' . '' / ; >/' ` y ,t y , ; ' ' ` . . . . 8- Monsanto Company, No 80-L-970, on th e. 16th day o f A p ril, 1985, 9 do hereby c e r t i f y t h a t .th above and foregoing i s a tru e and 10 c o rre c t t r a n s c r ip t o f the proceedings''hadeat- s a id vh ea rin g , h which proceedings were re p o rte d by me in . shorthand and by me; 12 c o r r e c tly 'tr a n s c r ib e d ;, . l y L' , . \ ; `; 13 , v - : ` ; '1 / * r ' 'V ," . , '- " ' ' D a te d 'th is , 3^- ' ' day o f A p r il,/1985. ' ; / 14 ; 1516, ' r " 5- ^ .r 17 ` ' 18 19 . 20 \ 21 22 ' 23 . 1 24 ' " * -t \ * O ffic ia l Court. Reporter -, ; v *i , ^^ ' V '> 1 I V I 11 M tfO J lO O iO T 'N ` 3N N O A a t *< PENCAD 'c o .. BAYO N N E. N .J. * 070 01 FORM -IL ,A B