Document ekEO1jZaBnxOwwqopeZo053E
FILE NAME: Wagner (WAG) DATE: 1985 June 19 DOC#: WAG019 DOCUMENT DESCRIPTION: Legal - Deposition of Edward Rabn
/4.A-.4U f.EFOniKG 3C-2 ?;*< ?;<? ::r :; eut
1 2 IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
FOR THE DISTRICT OF DELATARE 3
4 ROBERT P. O'NEAL,
5 Plaintiff,
6
7
HUXLEY DEVELOPMENT CORPORATION r ) S
)
Defendant and ) C, ..O . cl-/. 9
Third-Party
Plaintiff,
10
v.
11
OY PARTEK A3, t/a
12
PA.RAI STEN KALKKI OY , et al.,
13
Tnird-rarti
Defendant s . 14
15
Deposition of EDWARD EA30N, taken before 16
T. Ann Wilkes, a Notary Public and Stenographic Reporter, 17
on June 19, 1985 at 10:00 a.it. , at the Chamber of Commerce 18
Building, Wilmington, Delaware. 19
20 21
22 23
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MARSHALL REPORTING 302 73* 7637 302 36S Cilt 21
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RABON - CRUHPLAR
2
your reservation.
3
BY KR. CRUHPLAR:
4
Q.
Fine.
5
Kr. Rabn, could you give me your hone anc
G
business address?
7
A.
My business address is 4455 Forth Sixth Street,
3
in Philadelphia. Ky home address is 97 Kendall Boulevard,
g
in Oaklyn, New Jersey.
10
g
Do yo u have any nreser.t rnlent ions cr plans
11
to 1retire from Charles Wacner anytime scon?
12
A.
Well, I'm 74 years old, so you can form your
13
cvm ccr.c lus ion
I have no specific plans.
14
o.
I t 's not like you've ann.ouncec tha t vcu 1re
15
leaving at the end of this year?
16
A.
No, Definitely not. I like what I'm doing.
17
0.
Good. Can you tell me what ycur present
18
position is with the Charles Wagner Company?
19
A.
I'm president.
20
Q.
And how long have you been president?
21
A.
About 20 years,
22
Q.
So, about 19 65 or so?
23
A.
Yes,
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iif- RS*1ALL FirCRTIN G 372 7U 7647 ;02 36 0516 22
1
PsABOH - CRMPLR
2
Q.
When were you first associated with the
3
Charles Wagner Corporation?
4
A-
1929.
5
Q.
Charles Wagner is a corporation, is it not?
6
A.
Yes. In Pennsylvania.
7
0.
It was incorporated inPennsylvania?
S
A.
Yes.
9
0.
Yow, i notice on Wagner Exhibit 2, they have,
I
10
I cuess, the Charles Wagner seal, and in says, established in !
11
1910. That was the founding of the corporation?
12
A.
hr. Charles A. Wagner established it in 1910
13
as a proprietorship and he incorporated in 1920. And I have
14
retained the name for all the years.
15
0.
In 1929, when you started with Charles wacr.er,
16
what was your position at that time?
17
A.
Office boy. I remember the salary too.
18
Q.
That's all right. We don't need to go into
19
that
20
If we could go through chronologically your
21
positions at the Wagner Company?
22
A.
Chronologically, for a fewT years I was doing
23
general office work. Recordkeeping, the usual thing. And
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RABON - CRUMPLAR
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and halfway to Baltimore. Generally speaking. There are sorre
)
3
exceptions.
i
4
Q-
Southeastern Pennsylvania, southern Jersey,
:
5
Delaware, ana maybe a portion of Maryland?
-
t
6
A
Possibly. Again depending upon product lines.
1
0.
And that general market area has been true
since the beainnina of Charles Teener?
9
A
Correct. Ke've never had any branches or
20
anything.
11
Q.
Dor, you were a salesman from 15 2 5 until
12
about when, sir?
13
A
I'm still a salesman. Then die I become an
14
officer? I became a vice president, but I honestly don't
15
knew the date. I couldn't tell you the cate. 7-.t some point
16
curing that time.
17
0.
Sometime in the 193 0 's?
t
18
A
Do. Later than that.
19
Q,
In 1958, v.'hat was your position with the
20
company?
21
A.
Vice president.
22
0,
Just vice president period, or vice president
23
in charge of --
aaaaBMfflatasBss
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MARSHALL REPORTING
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1
RA30N - CPX'MPLAR
2
A.
They are loosely described as non-metsliic
3
minerals. To distinguish them from the netallics. And thev
4
are mostly clay, talc. We sell pumice stone. We sell a whole ,
5
host of them as listed on the brochure there. .But general 1'/
6
speaking, the major part of our line are products which are
7
dug out of the ground, beneficiated in some manner, put in
8
packages, and sold.
o
Q.
You said dug cut of the ground and beneficiated
10
in some rar.r.er. You'll have t^ explain v.-hat --cu naan bv that.
11
A.
Well, you get it cur as crude, you have no
12
crush it, you have to cry it,'you have to grind it to different
13 mesh sizes, depending c.n the r a r k e t .
14 g fenehea processed and then packaged and rhen
15 sent to you, and then you sell it or distribute it to the
16
ultimate customer?
17
A.
Yes.
18 Q. when was the firsttime thatCharles Wagner
19 sold, distributed, handled, an asbestos containing material
20
to anyone?
21
A,
I think you have todistinguish between asbestos
22
containing materials and --
23
0.
Or raw asbestos.
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f
1
RABON - CRUMPLAR
i
1
y
2
A.
Natural crude asbestos, yes. Again, I don't
i
{
3 have the details, but I can infer that it was approximately i
4
the mid 15 0 's .
5 Q. It's vour belief prior to the mid '50!s, f
t
\
6
Wagner had never handled asbestos?
l
}
7
A.
That's true. We never did.
s
Q.
When was the last time chat you sole, cisrr_but id
9
handled, asbestos cr an asbestos containing material?
10
As accurately as I can pinpoint it, it mas
11
'71, '72. The reason I'm not sure about the last cate is
,
12
because when you discontinue handling a product lire, you
13
sell off your inventory obviously. Tut the last purchase,
>
14
I think, was probably around '71, '72, whatever the invoices
\
15
say ,
16
Q.
We can go to the cards. I'm just trying vo
17
get a general ball park number.
18
MS. YOUNG: Can I interrupt you just a second,
*
19
Tom?
20
MR. CRUMPLAR: Sure.
'
21
MS. YOUNG: Since it's your deposition, you
22
can do what you want, but a minute ago, I think
23
the two of you agreed that vre must differentiate
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m a r s h a u r epo rtin g
33? 73i 7<>7 33? 366 0516
____________________ __ ________________________________________________________
29
1
RA30N - CRUMFLAK
2
between asbestos containing material ana asbestos,
3
and nobody d i d .
4
MR. CRUMPLAR: I'm going to do that right now.
5
BY MR. CRUMPLAR:
6
Q.
Can you describe the asbestos that Charles
7
Wagner handled? And if there was more than one type, describe
8
that.
9
h.
Well, mineralogies.lly, I don't think vcu are j
10
concerned about than, because I'n r.ct knowledgeable on chat.
11
We only handled asbesros, first cf all, iron Asbestos Corpora
12
tion Limited, Thetforc Mines, Quebec, Canada.
13
p.
I t 's your testimony that was the sole supplier
14
of the asbestos?
15
A.
That's right. So, the only asbestos we ever
16
handled is generally spoken of as asbestos fiber. That's
17
usually the trade designation, asbestos fiber. Kot necessarily
18
raw or crude, but asbestos fiber. And that was treated in
19
the same manner that I mentioned previously. They took it cut
20
of huge mines, and they go through certain procedures. In
21
the case of asbestos, they tried to preserve the long fibers
22
because they were more valuable than the short fibers. And
23
most distributors, including ourselves, only get to sell the
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RABON - CP.UMPLAR
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shorts, which are the lower end of the scale. They are the
3
cheapest and almost the bottom of the pile. So, we only sole
4
to my recollection four different grades, and they are cesicnate
5
by numbers in the literature.
6
Q.
And those tere four different grades of the
7
asbestos shorts?
S
A.
T h a t 1s r i g h t .
9
o.
And I tale it that as the asbestos tret was
10
mined, and somehow processed?
11
A.
Right.
12
0.
-And then that care to you in bags?
13
Right.
14
0.
Vlas it cnly ir. bags as far as ycu can recall?
15
A.
Yes. Only in bags.
16
0.
In those bags, v.-as there anything other than
17
asbestos? I used the tern asbestos containing, but we are
IS
simply talking about asbestos.
19
A,
It was Dure, if you want to call it that,
20
natural asbestos fiber.
21
0.
You did not carry, what I'll call asbestos
22
containing products, either insulation material that had
23
asbestos and something else, or any other sort of matter?
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MARSHALL REPORTING
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aos-its a 11>
31
1
2
A
3
to that.
RABON - CRU.MPLAR No. Ke didn't carry anything else relating
4
P
You stated just a moment ago that distributors
5
such as yourself could only carry the asbestos shorts, the
6
bottom end of the market. Could you explain that?
7
h.
Kell, it v?asn't a matter of only -- it was
S
a case that they vere only made available, I can only speak,
9
for myself. .As far as we v;ere concerned, we didn't have
10
access to, or were given the epperrunity cf selling the longer
11
fibers, which were used for different purposes and, of course,
12 spinning fibers, because of a highly specialized business I
13 suppose. And what was available was sold directly by the
14
producers. So, in other words, it was a case of here it is,
15
if you vent to sell asbestos, this is v'hat it is.
16
0.
The producers only needed people such as vou
17
to sell, as far as you knew, the asbestos shorts?
18
ft.
As far as I know, since we did not sell --
19
0.
The longer fibers?
20 ft. The opportunity was not afforded us of selling
21
the longer fibers.
22
q.
Did you ever attempt to try to sell anything
23
other than the asbestos shorts? Did you ever have any
i
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RABON - CRUMPLAR
2
A.
Yes.
3
0.
How long have they been your insurance agent?
4
A.
Well, probably at least 40 years or so.
5
Mr. Wagner vras still alive.
6
Q.
Pardon?
7
A.
Mr. Waaner was still alive.
S
0.
Do you recall the first tire chat Charle:
9
m e r Ccrocrauicn rook our n rucr liatii itv insurance?
10
L
do.
11
0.
Do you recall any discussions as to why you
12
should take that our?
13
A.
Wo discussions. Wo. But, of course, I belong
U
to rv.'o or three trace associations, three or four trade
15
associations, ana unless you are deaf, curio and blind, you
16
have discussions or hear things v.-hen you go to meetings. So,
17
obviously, it became clear that a good business manager should
18
be av:are of these things and take steps to protect themselves.
19
Q.
You mentioned trade associations. What trade
20
associations has Charles Wagner belonged to or participated in?
21
A.
The National Paint and Coatings Association.
22
We still are. I have a 50 year pin to prove it.
23
0.
That's your 50 years or Charles Wagner's
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------------- --
1
2
50 years?
3
A.
MArS-'All fr-CFTING y.2 73* 7tt<7 ZZ2 Jt>t CMi>
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RABON - CRU2IPLAR <
4
My personal 50 years. The N A C D . The National
;
4
Association of Chemical Distributors.
i
5
0.
Anyone else?
6
A.
Hell/ we belong to a Philadelphia Rubber
7
Group. I can't recall offhand, but I see the bills for the
8
dues.
g
0.
' Do you get any magazines iron any of the trace
10
associations?
11
A.
Ko. lie cet bulletins, but net racaair.es.
12
0.
And these associations have regular meetings
13
or annual meetings?
14
A
An annual meeting. National annual meetings.
15
0.
Is it your general custom to atrer.d the
16
annual meetings?
17
A.
Yes.
18
Q.
At any of the meetings at any of the trade
19
associations, do you ever at any time recall the subject of
/ (
20
asbestos, either the use of asbestos, the hazards of asbestos.
r
21 just the word asbestos, being mentioned at any of the trade 5
00
associations?
23
A.
Of course it was mentioned. But I can't tell
}
\
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RA30M - CRUMPLAR
2
you about a specific meeting. I can't tell you in what
3
connection. But, as I said before, I'm a business manager and
4
you must hear these things.
5
Q.
My question, sir, is, do you have any recol
6
lection as to the first time, or anytime that it was mentioned,
7
and in what context that it was mentioned? he are talking
S
about over a period cf 50 years.
9
r.
I really c a n 't. These things just accumulate.
10
And I honestly can't tell you.
11
0
You don't have ar.y specific recollection of
12
at some meeting, and I'm not interested whether it was in 1941
13
or 1979, but at any particular meeting where there was a
14
discussion about, l e t 's say, the use of asbestos m paints
15
and coatings, or the use of asbestos in materials, or a dis
16
cussion about how the asbestos industry was doing, or a dis
17
cussion about the hazards of asbestos, or a discussion of
18
asbestos lawsuits? Or anything else dealing with asbestos.
19
A.
Kell, the lawsuits came recently. But, I can
20
only answer as I have in a general way. Obviously, I'm
21
reasonably alert, and I do attend meetings. I do talk to
22
people, and I do hear things. And I am being as frank as I
23
can, I just cannot pinpoint any particular thing and tine.
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2
Q.
I appreciate that, and realize it. And all
3
I amasking for is what your best recollection is.
4
A
As to when, I really have no idea. Because
5
thereare other things in the marketplace getting attention
G
besides asbestos.
7
0-
I'm certainly aware of that. In all of ry
S
questions, I'd ask you to think about it ana give r.e your
9
best belief.
10
That 's what I 'm trying to do.
11
o.
bU XZ I realize v:e are talking about a long
12
peric-d of time end I can certainly understand that.
13
z, t
T S. 1S ITi.Cl*1ii
14
0.
Who are you major competitors in the Delaware
15
Valley area who co similar things as Charles Wagner, that
16
you compete with?
17
h.
I don't mind answering that question, but I
18
think 1 would be doing a disservice -- is that appropriate?
19
MS. YOUNG: T h e r e 's a limit to how far they
20
can go. But, yes, I think you ought to try to give
21
him the names.
22
THE W I T N E S S : Well, I 'll try to name a few.
23
Van Horn Metz S. Company, Conshchockin. Pelrz, Rowley.
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RABON - CRUMPLAR
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BY KR. CRU'iPLAR:
3
ft
Where are they located?
4
A.
In PhiladelDhia. E.W, Kauffman Conoanv, and
5
they viere in Flower Town, they are in suburban Philadelphia
6
There are a number of others, but I will have to refresh rry
7
memory.
8
0.
New, with any of these three, cr any ether ones,
9
co you know if they ever sold asbestos shorts, cr any sore cf
- n
asbestos or oducts?
11
MS. YOUNG: To the best of your knowledge.
12
MR. CRUMPLAR: That's rv onlv cuesticn.
13
THE WITNESS: To the- best of my knowledge, yes.
14
BY KR. CRUMPLAR:
15
Q.
So I have an understanding in terms of how
16
the market was set up, would they be selling asbestos products
T ~ X t
from other mines?
18
A.
Yes. Other mines.
19
&
But you were the only cne selling for Asbestos
20
Corporation Limited?
21
A.
That's right. We were more cr less an exclusive
22
g.
Do you know what mines they were selling for?
23
A.
Not from my personal knowledge, only from
---- ~
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MARSHALI REPORTING ::: 73< ?/ 3:iji8CJi6
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RABON - C.RUKPLAR
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they handled asbestos,
3
0.
And for E.V7. Kauffman,
4
A
I'm not certain about themeither,
5
Q.
Whether they handled it, and, if so, whose
6
asbestos?
7
A.
That's right.
6
0
Okay, fine.
Q
You mentioned that the only scarce cf asbestos
10 that you handled was from Asbestos Corporation Limited. Cad
13
you ever visor any cf their facilities, either their .
their headquarters, any cf their offices? 12
13
l.
Cne tire
0.
And v:her. rV..O-fc5 --U.VJ,-CLJ-.O
14
rK 4
Oh well, this Mill be an approximate date
15
16 It would have probably been in the 'SO's. I will have to
17 cuess. Ke started business with them somewhere in the '5 0 's.
It was either late '50's or around '60. That's my best guess. IS
Q.
Shortly after you started the business relation
19
20
ship?
21
A
Yes. That's the usual procedure.
22 q, And v/here did you go on your visit?
23 K Thetford Mines.
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RA30N - CRUMPLAR
o
Q.
Can you describe v.'hat you did, what you saw,
3
who you spoke with, to the best of your recollection?
4
A.
I c a n 't tell you who, but I can tell you that
5
i t 's the usual thing. They have all their agents from all
6
over the country who are invited up, and they take you arcur.d
7
and say, "This is the mine, this is where we co this." And
S
the whole thing becomes a blur, and i t 's a general visit to
9
orient you with product lines that you expect to be able to
10
sell. But, so far as people, 1 c a n 't tell you.
11
0.
And basically you had a feel for the people
12
you would be dealing with, the size of the operation, and
13
v.'hat they did?
14
A,
Right.
15
0,
Other than that one visit, andare m s talking
16
about a day, several days, a week?
17
h.
Mv recollection is it was two or three cavs.
IS
T h a t 's the normal thing.
19
Q.
Did anyone else from Charles hagner ever
20
visit an A.sbestos Corporation Limited mine?
21
A.
Only at the same time.
22
0.
Kho else went v/ith you?
23
A.
One person who is retired, WardStackhouse.
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/.'.ARSHALL REPORTING
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]
45
|
1
FJ-.BOi: - c r u h p l a r
2
Q.
What was his name?
I
3
A.
His first name was Ward. The last name was
4
Stackhouse.
!
5
0.
What was Hr. Stackhouse's position with
i
6
Charles Wagner?
A.
He was vice president at that time. And my
j
S
son, Wayne, went wiuh us at that tine. That's all, 1 third*,
o
just the throe cf us.
10
g.
Tic you actualIv visir, see the ries and
il
she m i l where r m y w m l c process uhe r,aterial,as best yea
t
12
can recall?
13
A,.
Vc-s, I have been to mar.y, many giants or. r.v
I
14
time, and normally chat's vhat they do. by recollection s ,
15
they had an open pit nine, which means that it's just a vase
16
expansion, and you go up on the hill and you Icok down. Sum,
17
to answer your question, yes. They shew you the eperauren
18
within reason.
19
Q.
Do you recall in your visit to Thetford Kir.es,
20
and if you don't recall, I can certainly understand, ever
21
seeing any of the workers wear any sort of masks or respirators'5
22
A.
I can't say, but I'm certain that any plant
23
I've ever visited, they handle a lot of powder materials,
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RABON - CRUiiPLAR
2
these rained products I spoke about, and they always have
3
respirators. Any dust, regardless, whatever it is.
4
o.
So, it's your belief that there were?
5
A,
Yes. Sure.
G
o.
has there anyone in particular, or type of
7
person, position, that you dealt with with asbestos Corporation
S
in the course of the relationship?
!
9
I've been thinking about it. or.lv have
10
two names. 7'he one was the sales manager who handled cur
11
area. His rn was Paul LeClerc.
12
Q.
And he was the sales manager?
13
fr.
He v:as the sales manager and he was responsible
14
fer cracking the whip on us and other service agents. And
15
the ether was a man by the name of Steele, I don't even know
16
his first name. I think he vas more of an office person,
17
where if you had any problems you would call him up.
18
They are the only names that I can recall. I don't have
19
correspondence.
20
Q-
hith them?
21
A.
I don't have any correspondence as far as
22
getting names of people is concerned
23
g.
When you needed some asbestos, would it
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RABON - CRUKPLAR
2
.
I haven't the remotest idea.
3
&
Did you everlearn what use duPont was going
4
to be making of this asbestos fiber ?
o
A.
No. I inferred it after I got your papers
6
here. You referred to a sweeping compound. So, I'n intelli
7
gent enough to put the tv.'o together. And I assume that's
8
what it was. But I didn't knew what it was used for.
9
0.
by question is, while you were selling the
10
material, which was sometime into the early '7 0 's, did yen
n
ever knew new duPont was going to use that material?
1 o
h,
no.
13
0
You just knew that they wanted it at their
14
lant for one reason or another?
15
h.
Yes.
16
o.
Nov, you sold asbestos fibers to other
17
companies, and as I understand the only company on the list
18
that I have given you is duPont. Do you know how any of
19
those companies, I'm not interested in the particular names,
20
made use of the asbestos material?
21
A.
Generally speaking, roof coatings was one.
22
of the major uses. And various types of flooring compounds.
23
0,
So, the other customers of the asbestos fibers
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RABON - CRUMPLAR
2
as far as you knev.1, vrere for roof coatings and flooring com
3
pounds?
4
A.
And some miscellaneous uses I'm sure.
5
0-
Do you knov,' vrhat any of those miscellaneous
6
uses vrere?
7
A.
hell, allied caulking Compounds, anyplace
S
where the fiber structure vroula aid the end product.
9
0.
So they were coinc to be using, as far as you
10
knew, the asbestos fibers in producing a product?
n
A.
Yes.
12
Q.
They vrere going to incorporate it into a
13
particular produce?
14
in.
Yes.
15
Q.
Did you ever assume cuPont v/bs 'osing the
16
f ibers for one of their products, or is this just
17
something you never gave any thought to?
18
A.
Ask me the question again.
19
Q,
I 'll rephrase it.
20
Do you ever recall thinking vrhat use duPont
21
was likely to put to this product? Was it your assumption
22
that they were using it in their manufacturing process, in
23
corporating it in one of their materials? Or, as far as you
A-66
A*.Ar$-iALlKiFOniNG
\
33: 73* 76*7
1
3:; 3t-C16
________________________________________________ __ 56
1
r a b o n - c r u f .p l a r
|
2
can recall, that's just something you don't remember thinking
3
about one way or another?
I
4
A
bo, I didn't think about it one v:ay or another.
5
This usage is quite small. Not something that I would be
6
dwelling on. I just don't know. And, of course, cuPont is
/
not the kind of company that take you into their confidence
8
in terms of what they are doing.
&
0.
Ir. terms of what they are doing. Fine.
10
wrule ask you to tame a moment anc Icon at
i I
Rabun 3. Just go ahead and flip through in.
12
k
What ami 1 looking for?
13
0.
Really the volume. Th a t 's what my question
14
is coing to be. Ci"=n those sales to cuPont Eeaford, c;:u:
15
that period of time, what's your best estimate of what
16
percentage the asbestos sales to duPcnt represented of your
17
asbestos sales period? Are we talking about cuPont asbestos,
18
of the asbestos fibers that you handled, being 10 percent,
19
20 percent, 40 percent? Just to have some kind of rough
20
comparison to the other customers of your asbestos.
21
is.
It's quite small. But I think I might mislead
22
you if I try to put a number on it, without knowing some
23
other numbers to compare it to.
i.
--
A- 67
V.AKSHALL REPORTING
32?-734 7647
:::::u \l
57
1
RA.BOW - CRUkPLAR
2
0.
Well, v;hen you say it's quite small, are you
3
referring to, i t 's quite small compared to your overall
4
business?
5
A.
Yes. That's v:hat I 'm speaking about.
6
O'
Let me ask it a different v.-ay. The first time
7
v:e see handling asbestos for duPont is 1958. When was the
S
first time you recall handling asbestos period? 7-,,nd I may
Cl
have asked you this before.
10
L.
In the ric '50's zo the best cf r:y kr.ov.leage.
11
Bur I honestly don't knoi: the dare.
12
Q.
Do you think there v:as some ccrripanv that you
13
sold to prior to cuPcnt?
14
r7..
On that lisa?
15
Q.
Wo, r.ot on that list. Per i o c . cuPont v a s n 't
36
the first company you sold asbestos to?
17
ft.
Oh, no. That mould be my recollection, they
18
were not.
19
Q.
What percentage did the asbestos end of your
20
business, during the period of time you were carrying asbestos,
21
the mid '50's to early '70's, what percentage did it represent
22
of the overall product line. And if it varied signficantly,
23
you can tell me.
3EEHE
A - G8
MARSHALL REPORTING 3:? 7U 7i<7 ::i zi't
__________________ _________________________________________
58
1
EABON - CRUKPLAR
2
A
I don't think it varied significantly, and
3
it vias small, again even in the overall picture. I would
J
4
have to say that it v;ss probably less than five percent.
5
Q.
Ana you really couldn't say of -that five
6
percent what percentage duPont represented?
i|
7
k
K o , these are numbers that you could really
5
come back and haunt ne with them. I'm really just guessing.
|
9
0.
bcur best recollection is that the asbestos
j
t
10
v:as small, anc you are picking the five percent --
11
L
The total sale of asbestos was small, and I'n
12
picking a number of less than five percent. That can cc down
13
to one percent. The fact that it v:as small and apparently
14
didn't grot, indicates v;hy we don't have asbestos anymore.
15
0.
That you cropped it simply because it wasn't
16
a major component of your business?
17
k
It wasn't even carrying its own weight. In
16
other words, in any distribution operation, you evaluate the
19
products and how much warehouse space they take up and all
20
this stuff. And if a thing is not paying for itself, you
21
d o n 't handle it.
22
Q.
And the decision to drop it in the early
23
'70 1s v:as an economic decision? It simply v?asn`t a profitable
A- 69
MARSHALL REPORTING 3:? 734 74? 3;; 366 0316 5 9
1
RABON - CRURPLAR
2
line of your business?
3
A
T h a t 's right. As compared to some others.
4
Yes.
5
Q.
I'd like you to take a look at Exhibit A. to
6
the deposition notice which has been marked as Rabon 1. .And
7
if you will just take a moment and go through that list, ar.d
S
if there are any companies that you've heard of and associate
Q
in any way with asbestos. I'm not talking about --
10
THE illTRESS : Johns Renville?
li
RE. CE.t'RPL.AR: Let's say, for instance, we
12
have General Motors Corporation. I'm sure you've
13
heard of that, but my' question is whether you
14
associate any of those companies with asbestos. I'd
15
like you tc just take a pen and just check those.
16
R S . YOUNG: Viait a minute. I'm not sure
17
what you are asking the witness to do,
15
MR. CRURPLAR: I'm simply asking him to go
19
through, and this is just simply a time-saver rather
20
than going down each one, if any of these companies
21
on this list, I'm not asking in terms of sales to
22
them, because it is my understanding that he looked
23
at it and has given the information in terms of sales,
A-70
/.'.ARSWALL
30: 73*
3:; j-.i c a t
62
ii
1
RBON - CRUMP LAP.
2
A
No. Atlas Asbestos, no connection, I rhink
3
they were local at one time. Bell Asbestos Mines is a iriner,
4
I've never had any business with them.
5
0.
The Atlas A.sbestos that you say you think
6
they were local, tell me everything that you know about that
7
asbestos?
8
A
I've just heard the narre. And my recollection
9
was it was somewhere in Philadelphia.
!
10
0,
That it was a local company?
\
11
A
Light, but I don't know anything above thc-r,.
12
Bendix, I assume uhey make brake linings. Ana id they rake
13
brake linings, they have to use asbestos, but 1 don't knev,
14
that personally. Bird and Sons, they make fleering, the
15
seme comments apply to them as with Armstrong. I've never
16
done any business with them. Blomely, I don't know. Briggs,
17
I don't knew. Cape Asbestos, there's another -- that's
18
South Africa. I know that they are miners, but I've never
19
had any dealings with them. Canadian Johns Manville, everybody
20
knows them. Carey, the same thing. Ko business dealings.
21
q.
Did you have any business dealings with
22
Johns Manville at any time, or any discussions?
23
A,
Met on asbestos.
A- 71
MARSHALL REPORTING 3:7 73i 7637 377 US tilt
_________________________
63
1 RA30N - CRUKPLAR
2 0. Khat was the nature of your dealings with
3 Johns Manville? On what subject?
4
A.
As a supplier of materials in other lines.
5 Q. bon asbestos lines?
6
A.
That's right, bon asbestos lines.
7 Carlisle I don't know. Catalytic I ccn't know. Celotex,
8 they could make -- I don't think they even make flooring.
o I don't know anything about then. Central Scientific, rc,
10
C.F. Braun, I don't knew. Chrysler, I don't know.
11 Combustion Engineering, no. Consolidated
12
Rail, no. Cork Insulation, Ko, eithc-r one. County Insulation,
13
r.c. Delaware Insulation, no. Delrr.arva Power, Dravo, Crcwn
14
Cor): & Seal, no.
15
Q.
Let me just as): you one question, on C<-.rev
16
or Carey Canadian Mines, I gather from your earlier testimony
17
you are familiar with them as a mining company. In fact,
18
you mentioned Peltz, I guess, being one of their distributors?
19
A.
Right.
20
Q,
Other than thatknowledge,
doyou have any
21
knowledge about Carey?
22
A.
No.
23
q.
A.ny knowledgeabout thecompany, Philip Carey
A-72 532
A*_LFirOMI^
Z>t: 7 2 t 76<7 52? 3 i t Ci'.
__________________ ______________________________ ____________________________________ 64
1
RABON - CRU.MPLAR
2 Manufacturing Company?
3
A.
Other than they are in Plymouth Meeting, no.'
4
Q.
Let's go on to the next page.
5
7).
Drayco, no. Eagle Picher, I've cone business
6 v.'ith them, but not asbestos.
7
0.
Ivhat is the nature of the business you have
5
cone vrith Eaale Picher?
9
h.
he supplied
me d i d n 't supply, me
10
ci a tomacsous earth products, mhich mere mined in Califernia cr
11
someolace c m mere.
:hey mere subsc-cuentlv touch
12
foody else, cr the mine mas bought by somebody else.
13
0
An Leerle Richer mine cut in California
14
ciarcnacecus esrtn orocuct
loarles teener sole .
15
A
Yes. At one rime.
16
Die. it have a name to the rroduct?
17
C61 atcm .
IS
0.
Did you ever sell that to dupont?
19
P.
hell, that's another investigation.
20
Q.
Your basic recollection right nom.
21
P.
Yes, we aid sell it to duPont. They put it
22
in their Duco Number 7 auto max.
23
Q
As far as you Knew, this diatomaceous earth
A-73
MARSHALL REPORTING 32:-72* 7t>*7 3Zi 32cC'it 79
1
RABON - CRUMPLAR
2
A
My son, Wayne, was in charge of the warehouse.
3
Q.
And your son, Wayne, is still working with
4
Charles Wagner?
5
A.
Yes.
-
6
0,
Do you know if there was ever a problem with
7
baas breaking? The asbestos shorts that you had in your
&
warehouse? Breaking, ripping open?
9
A.
You roan, did one ever rip open?
10
1 11
p.
Yes.
A.
Yes. It wasn't a premier, however. Otoer- ise
12
vie would have taken some steps to correct it. It was just
13 14 j
from normal handling. It was either, if you had a tear in it, you got so~e adhesive taco arc patched it. Or if it was
15
damaged to the point that you had to dispose of it, you either
16
disposed of it or put it in another package, one or the ether.
17
But there was a minimal of those.
IS
0.
So, there were occasions where there was some
19
damage to the bags, such that there would be some spillage.
:
20
And on some occasions you would simply tape it up, and on
21
other occasions you would put it in a new bag?
22
A.
Yes.
23
MS. YOUNG: Are you asking him specifically
A-74
12
aagsgraaii
A',Ar $uALI REPORTING
7J- TUl
3: : ut csi6 85
1
RABOK1 - CRUMP LA R
2
Q.
Prior to filling out those in confornity with
3
government regulations, aid you send out any type of descriotior
4
to any customers, for any products, that would talk about
5
the hazards associated with that product? I'm not just
6
talking about asbestos.
7
A.
Kell, you're getting into another area.
6
There are certain oroducts which are labeled in a certain wa" .
G
C *- T -{Z. 'v- nocuous in themselves, but dust of any kina if
O
inhaled dee ply for a. nrclonged period of t ime is going tc
11
hurt you. A v'ici i n rest ci i r i c s g C c s s s /. clT- in practically
12
all cases, it says, "Do not handle without a respirator 11, or
13
g o not do certain other -kings. But, so fsr as asbestos i s
14
concerned, - - vo'J asked re whether we sent out anything no
15
anybody on any products.
16
0,
Prior to the material safe tv data sheets.
17
Xot in the routine manner as now required.
18
No.
19
0.
New, you just mentioned in terms of dust,
20
do not handle without a respirator. In any of the materials
21
that you sold, was that label on any of the materials, or
22
did you ever send that statement in a written form or orally
23
to any of your customers? I'm not talking about asbestos,
A-75
MARSHALL REPORTING 302 7 3-d ?6-:7 352 368 16
1
RABON - CRUMPLAR
2
A.
Kell/ that's something we add. In other words,
3
to get the bags from our warehouse to the customer, the
4
carrier roust have some direction, and they have to be marred
5
in case they get lost.
6
Q.
Nov;,I understand,
youdon't recallseeing
i
any kind of warning or cautionary label on the asbestos bags.
8
You can't be 100 percent sure ore way or the other. I under
9
stand that. Do you recall here todav seeing a warning cr
10
cautionary label or. any bsgs of any product handled hp
11
Charles V'scner?
iL Jn.
A.
Yes.
13
Q,
Nhat. nypes of products and when?
14
A.
Vie11, most of ourproducts are powder material.
15
And I think in the atmosphere and marketplace today, there
16
is a tendency more to put these things on bags, ana now they
17
are starting to appear.
18
Q-
Prior to 1972, do you recall seeing any sort
19
of warning or ca utionary label on any product that ycu carried?
20
A.
I d o n 't recall having seen any. No.
21
Q.
When is about the first time that you can
22
recall seeing, "Use a respirator" or that language appearing --
23
A.
I couldn't tell you. That would be a cure
A-76
/AAKSHAU. REPORTING
3C7.73. 767
2Z2 36E CSU
83
1
2
guess.
RABON - CRUKPLAR
3
Q.
But you think it's within the last 10 or 12
4
years?
5
k.
Yes.
6
0.
Your best recollection of the '60s and
K*
7
'ou dien t see that type of thing?
i
6
h.
That's my best recolle'ction.
9
0.
/-.t Charles iiagner in th e v'.arehouee , cic
l
have any sor t of signs that would ::er.tICO the fact that
i
asbestos was being unloaded or stored?
12
7i.
Kc.
13
0.
Die you have any sort of requirement of the
14
warehouse people, the oeople 'iho handled the materials, and
15
this is not just the asbestos, that they had to wear s
16
respirator or any sort of mask?
11
A.
lie nahe respirators available. That's about
18
all I can tell you.
19
0.
When do you recall first making respirators
20
available?
21
A.
Many years ago.
22
Q.
That goes back more than 15 years ago?
23
S.
Yes. Definitely.
A-77 '
/.'.ARSHAU REPORTING
3;? 734 7647
35? 366 0516
89
1
RABON - CRUMPLAR
2
Q.
In the 160's they were available?
3
A
That's right. But bear in mind, we have a
4
warehouse, and the only dust we get is if something breaks.
5
And when they re-bag, they better have their respirator on,
6
or they might get canned. But, for the normal course of
7
events, it's a fairly clean place.
8
0.
CO
o
the respirators ar c available 1p c;t c p ---
9
A
** V-. P\ r.r.u
they
are
urged
to
use
then.
10
Q.
And they are urged to u s e _nen i _ u he rateria
31
A
At a ny tine. They ar e urged tc use t i .G V l a l
12
times.
13
0.
And the purpose of u k a t I S t C V 1"C 1 0 ct them
14
, the dust of th e: materials they cr !L e handling?
15
h.
Any dust. T h a t 1s corr e c t .
16
Q.
And t h a t 1s because in your opinion, or ycur
17
company's opinion, exposure to dust could be harmful?
18
MS. YOUNG: I object to the question. It's
19
leading. But you can answer it,
20
THE WITNESS: In other words, it's a natter
21
of their comfort. You get just as much dirt off the
22
streets in Wilmington as you did in our -warehouse
23
many times.
A-78
MARSHALL REPORTING s:? z a csii
______________ _______________________________________________________ 90
1
2
BY MR. CRUMPLAR:
RA30N - CRUMPLAR
3
Q-
Mr. Rabon, what is your understanding, or
4
your knowledge today, as to what, if any health hazards there
5
are associated with exposure to asbestos?
6
A-
I can't answer that truthfully other than the
7
fact that I know there are,I d o n 't know how m a n y >hundreds or
8
thousands of la-.,-suits out there. And I 'm sure that the reerie
9
who ere doing this, ar e b sing urged to do this, if you ,-ill
10
pardon the expression, by their legal counsel. The'-' rruso have
1
reasons, I suppose, bat l T?62TOn3.11v Ccn't kn.oi: about those
12
things .
IS
0.
My question is, what your knowledge is, what
14
you have learned iron any source, in terms of what the health
15
risks are with asbestos? VMnat exposure to asbestos causes
16
or is said to cause. And if you are not really sure what it
7
causes or what i t 's supposed to cause, t h a t 's the information
IS
1 wish to obtain.
19
A
I know it causes pulmonary problems, but I
20
d o n 't know whether you have to be exposed to it for five
21
minutes or 50 years. I d o n 't know anything about that.
22
Q.
Do you know whether or not i t 's thought to
23
cause cancer?
A-7 9
MARSHALL REPORTING
333 73* 7647 322 346.0516
________ _ _ _ _________ __________________ _________________________________________
9 1 ___________
1
RABON - CRUKPLAR
2
A.
I've heard that said.
3
Q.
When was the first time that you heard anything
4
that would suggest that exposure to asbestos would cause
5
pulmonary or breathing problems?
6
A.
I just don't know. I can't answer that.
7
Q.
Has that been something recent, or has that
8
been something that you have been aware of or heard about
Q
a fairly long time?
10
A.
In terms of 55 years in the business, I'd
11
call it recent.
12
0-
The last 2 0 years?
13
A.
ho, I don't remember. I wouldn't say that 20
14
years age they were talking about cancer, no,
15
Q.
And breathing problems? Not just cancer,but
16
any problems with asbestos?
17
A.
Ko.
IS
Q.
During the period 1958 to 1972, what was
19
your knowledge as to what, if any, harm could result to some
20
one from breathing asbestos dust, as opposed to any other
21
dust? I understand in terms of the requirement of respirators
22
for dust in general because you could see a harm to that.
23
My question is, did you associate a specific greater level of
A- 80
2 :7 a t * DM6
_____________ ___ _________________________________________ __________________ 92
1
RABON - CRUKPLAR
2
danger for someone dealing with asbestos dust as opposed to
3
the other dusts of the materials that were handled?
*/4
k
Ko, I aid not have any.
5
0.
So that, you considered asbestos no differc-nt
6
than the other materials that you were handling? Something
7
that if handled, a respirator should be used, but there was
S
nothing particular or special abcur asbestos?
9
h.
ho. Each, in the time frame you are t o l l or g
;o
about.
li
8 vas
12
i d e n t i f i c a t i o n .)
13
BY MR. CFUMPLAR;
u
Q.
This is a docu.mc-r.t which has been produced
15
to us by duPont. I think it's been introduced at an earlier
16
deposition of cuPcnt Seaford people, but I'n not positive
17
cf that fact. It's a memo dated March 23, 1972 from
16
R.V. Lauber to F.J. Klein, Process Hazards Ccrvr.ittee.
19
M y first question, Mr. Rabon, is, have you
20
ever seen that document before?
21
A.
To the best of my knowledge, no.
22
q.
I just want to go through the names here and
23
see if any of those names are familiar to you. I think,
A-81
m m L 'w j 'j M i i f t i
jjtm a B jua w
/.'.AESHALL r e p o r t in g
s::7a 7t,`7 j;s ci t
106
3
paeon - cpaeplar
2
A
To the best of ny knowledge, we never sold
3
6D to anybody except auPont. So, anytime KB653 appears,
4
that's duPont. But, that could be the last purchase. I'm.
5
not sure about that.
6
Q.
It's on the third pace of Exhibit 4, that
7
reference is to grade 6D?
8
G
0.
Arc on the first two paces ,,here we have KB-775
10
CL.a v 1s a di -~G: Gn u. grace?
11
i-..
A di.fftr e:\'L cla sif iceticn. P oq n-
12
0-
And Exhibit Number 5, I see on the third pace,
13
c ! 100 bags of KB -- no, that's 753
14
1.
The only one that I believe is or. here is
15
the one we just v:ent over.
1G
0,
Okav. And on Exhibit bomber 6 v,-e have 76 2 --
17
that's not rhe 6D grade?
IS
A.
No, it's not.
19
Q.
Sir, can you tell me what the highest degree
20
of your education is? Whether you graduated from high school,
21
college, graduate school?
22
h.
Well, after high school I went to work for
23
Charles Wagner in '29. And I spent five years at Drexel
A- 82
WAESHAU. F.ErORUN'G
::: rn 7to 3:5 3if c:it
___________ __________________________________ `________________________________
107
1
RABON - CRUMPLAR
2
Institute at night, and I spent two years at the Tharton
3
School at night. I spent two years at Penn in Chemistry at
4
night.
5
0-
The five years at Drexel at nicht, did you
6
get a degree?
7
A
No, I got a certificate in business organisa
S
tion and management.
9
Q.
In Wharton what was the course cf vcur soaiots
10
there?
11
k
General recounting.
12
p.
Did you get a certificate or a degree?
IS
k
I don't Know.
14
0.
And at Penn in chemistry, how long were ycu
lo
there?
16
k
Two years cf inorganic and organic.
17
0.
Simply to learn something more about the
18
business?
19
k
Yes.
20
q.
Ana that was the purpose of all this, to mate
21
you better suited to handle the business that you are in?
22
k
Yes. So I can answer depositions,
23
0
Right, Have you had any jobs either before
A- 83
AiLHALt. Fc~C~.T!KG n s :s t
132
PAEON - CRUMPLAR
and the v;ork that you were doing, v,-'nether cr no- mere cere a:
dangers associated v;ith in?
:= personally?
e.
"or v e u , for ycur cnplcvees, or any c:
c astor er s?
a 51
:
A
;;o. I S3.!: r.o rcc son no.
0.
:m-e i- - -.Cl
C. .. - ~ n -m- 1;
S
;y
No . Not
r"" rr.c-'I gi2
*'iclc -
:r* ircr1 C 7'' cv er c.:- a u -o re
12
r>,
Are yea a ,-are '.-bather or nor tr.r - ir3 (.
, <-
r era lari -- c -- her nr. ly ro- asb ostoa 1.cnd1 --r?
n 1o A 3C1 'Z3 TC 1. E.J.1*' si r.o r'S ha ,.^ i
i 1 -- Cir.ee A- 1- early '70 1s . I beep curreo t, c n o h m CT^ -,-3
ii <. iii 11
d sure then e a r e , but I just don't kr.c\ i rn at th ey are
Q-
c t o-n t-- In rstand it, you sola the as best
IS
ron c^estes Corpor a tio n Limited to var ions iff er ent
19
V OC des duron t, and V C U old different types 3u su. the
20
in v,'hich you sola th.er, the packaging, the v hole S les
21
ohip , di d it vary be tv;een customers?
22
A-
N o . Ther e vss no variar,ce at all.
23
0-
Ehe r*.2 >) Qr in which you sold the best
men
A - 84