Document dnkyqd50vjy63RqY0d62jE02e

JAMES GATE 1 LAURA MADDEN, individually and as) IN THE DISTRICT COURT Personal Representative of the ) SOUTHERN DISTRICT 2 Heirs and Estate of THOMAS MADDEN, JR., Deceased. ) OF TEXAS ) 3 Plaintiffs, ) GALVESTON DIVISION 4 vs. ) ) No. 3-02CV00194 5 Able Supply Company, INC., ) ) et al., ) 6 Defendants. ) ) 7 COLLEEN CARTER, Individually and ) IN THE DISTRICT COURT as Personal Representative of the) EASTERN DISTRICT OF 8 and Estate of MARVIN CARTER, ) TEXAS Deceased; and SUZETTE OLSON, ) 9 Individually and as Personal ) PARIS DIVISION Representative of the Heirs and ) 10 Estate of ORVILLE OLSON, Deceased) No. 3-02CV00009 Plaintiffs, ) 11 vs. 12 ACandS, INC., et al. ) ) ) ) 13 IN RE: Defendants. ) ) 14 FEDERAL-MOGUL GLOBAL, INC. Debtor, ) IN THE DISTRICT COURT ) WESTERN DISTRICT OF 15 ) TEXAS DIANE MATHIAS, Individually and ) 16 as Personal Representative of the) EL PASO DIVISION Heirs and Estate of GEORGE ) 17 MATHIAS, Deceased, ) No. 01-10578 18 vs. Plaintiffs, ) ) EP 01 CA 0380 DB ) 19 ACandS, INC., et al. ) ) 20 Defendants. ) 21 ORAL DEPOSITION OF 22 JAMES M. GATE 23 June 18, 2002 24 ORIGINAL 25 --oOo-- Page 1 HENJUM GOUCHER REPORTING SERVICES, L. P. 1-888-656-3376 JAMES GATE Page 2 1 ORAL DEPOSITION OF JAMES M. GATE, produced as a 2 witness at the instance of the Plaintiffs, and duly 3 sworn, was taken in the above-styled and numbered cause 4 on the 18th of June, 2002, from 10:35 a.m. to 6:15 p.m., 5 before LAURA D. FOWLER, CSR in and for the State of 6 California, reported by machine shorthand, at 7 Morgenstein & Jubilirer, One Market Plaza, Spear Street 8 Tower, 32nd Floor, San Francisco, California, pursuant 9 to the Texas Rules of Civil Procedure and the provisions 10 stated on the record or attached hereto. 11 12 AP P EARANC E S 13 FOR THE PLAINTIFFS: 14 MR. CHARLES SIEGEL MS. MICHELLE NORTON 15 WATERS & KRAUS, LLP 3219 McKinney Avenue, Suite 3000 16 Dallas, Texas, 75204 Phone: (214) 357-6244 17 FOR WESTINGHOUSE: 18 MR. WILLIAM D. HARVARD EVERT & WEATHERSBY, LLC 19 P.O. Box 1787 Athens, Georgia, 30603 20 Phone: (706) 583-8665 21 FOR HALLIBURTON COMPANY, KELLOGG BROWN & ROOT, DRESSER INDUSTRIES, INC.: 22 MR. JAMES A. LOWERY, III GODWIN and GRUBER 23 1201 Elm Street, Suite 1700 Dallas, Texas, 75270 24 Phone: (214) 939-4893 25 HENJUM GOUCHER REPORTING SERVICES, L. P. 1-888-656-3376 JAMES GATE 1 FOR IMO INDUSTRIES: MR. SHAWN M. RIDLEY 2 HOWARD, ROME, MARTIN & RIDLEY 1775 Woodside Road, Suite 200 3 Redwood City, California, 94061 Phone: (650) 365-7715 4 FOR CONGOLEUM, INC.: 5 MR. JAMES O. HARTMAN GLASPY & GLASPY 6 One Walnut Creek Center 100 Pringle Avenue, Suite 750 7 Walnut Creek, California, 94596 Phone: (510) 947-1300 8 The following appeared via telephone: 9 FOR COMBUSTION ENGINEERING: 10 MR. THOMAS SCOTT SPAIN & HASTINGS 11 2350 Two Houston Center 909 Fannin Street 12 Houston, Texas, 77010 Phone: (713) 650-9700 13 FOR WILEY STOKER: 14 MR. BERNARD ZWILLENBERG DEHAY & ELLISTON, LLP 15 Bank of America Plaza 901 Main Street, Suite 3500 16 Dallas, Texas, 75202 Phone: (214) 210-2445 17 FOR FOSTER WHEELER: 18 MR. LOU MILTENBERGER CORDRAY, GOODRICH & MILTENBERGER 19 108 West 8th Street, Suite 500 Fort Worth, Texas, 76102 20 Phone: (817) 820-0343 21 22 23 --oOo- 24 25 HENJUM GOUCHER REPORTING SERVICES, L. P. 1-888-656-3376 Page 3 JAMES GATE Page 4 1 I NDEX 2 PAGE 3 Appearances..................................................................................................... 2-4 4 WITNESS: JAMES M. GATE 5 Direct Examination by Mr. Siegel................................................ 11 6 Cross-Examination by Mr. Harvard................................................ 177 7 Redirect Examination by Mr. Siegel........................................... 199 8 Recross-Examination by Mr. Harvard........................................... 212 9 Redirect Examination by Mr. Siegel................................................. 213 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 HENJUM GOUCHER REPORTING SERVICES, L. P. 1-888-656-3376 JAMES GATE 1 DEFENDANTS' EXHIBITS (Continued) 2 WESTINGHOUSE 3 EXHIBITS 4 11 Turbine record for 2-A-7008-1 to 98 5 12 BuShips Manual Chapter 39 6 13 MIL-M-15071H 7 14 8 15 MIL-P-17286C MIL-T-17523 9 16 MIL-T-17523A 10 17 MIL-T-17523D 11 18 MIL-T-7600 12 19 MIL-T-17600A 13 20 MIL-T-17600B 14 21 DWG No. 1-JA-9156 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 HENJUM GOUCHER REPORTING SERVICES, L. P. 1-888-656-3376 Page 7 PAGE 10 10 10 10 10 10 10 10 10 10 10 JAMES GATE Page 8 1 JAMES GATE, 2 called as a witness, after being first duly sworn, 3 was examined and testified as follows: 4 --oOo-5 PROCEEDI NGS 6 --oOo-7 MR. HARVARD: I'm Bill Harvard. I'm here 8 representing Viacom. Plaintiffs had sent out a notice 9 to take the deposition of Jim Gate. Attached to it is a 10 request for any documents upon which Mr. Gate may have 11 relied in preparing his affidavit. Westinghouse has 12 responded by forwarding, prior to the deposition, a copy 13 of those materials upon which Mr. Gate may have relied 14 in preparing his affidavit. 15 As I explained to counsel for plaintiff prior 16 to the deposition, there may be additional materials 17 which Mr. Gate has reviewed generally over the years 18 dealing with military specifications or requirements of 19 the U.S. Navy or Westinghouse practice or procedure 20 manuals upon which he generally relies because they have 21 formed the basis of what he learned and knows as an 22 engineer which are not being produced. 23 One, because he may not know where the heck 24 they are, couldn't locate them. Two, they are materials 25 which may no longer be retained and accessible to him. HENJUM GOUCHER REPORTING SERVICES, L. P. 1-888-656-3376 JAMES GATE 1 A. Yes, it is. Page 12 2 Q. Is Saratoga near Sunnyvale? Today you are no 3 longer employed by Westinghouse; is that correct? 4 A. That is correct. 5 Q. And you retired from them in 1994? 6 A. That is correct. 7 Q. I want to make sure I understand the status of 8 the entity that you retired from because I've seen in 9 some other depositions a reference to Westinghouse 10 having been sold or -- sold to or bought by Northrop 11 Grumman or certain operations of Westinghouse; is that 12 correct? 13 MR. HARVARD: I'm going to object to the form 14 of the question as being outside the scope of this 15 witness' knowledge. He can respond what his 16 understanding is. He is not an officer, director or 17 agent of Westinghouse whose understanding or opinion on 18 this reflects the corporate realities of what transfers 19 may have occurred. 20 MR. SIEGEL: Q. Sure. You can answer if you 21 can. 22 A. Our division at Sunnyvale, which at one time 23 was part of Westinghouse, was the Marine Division. The 24 Marine Division sometime in 1996 or '97 was sold to 25 Northrop Grumman. Our plant is still there. The signs HENJUM GOUCHER REPORTING SERVICES, L. P. 1-888-656-3376 JAMES GATE Page 13 1 have changed to Northrop Grumman and we continue to do 2 the same type of business. 3 Q. Okay. Now, I know you've been deposed several 4 times in the past; is that correct? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. And you've given trial testimony as well? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. Okay. So you're familiar with the ground 9 rules of the deposition and we don't need to go over 10 those. The only one I want to state on the record is 11 that if for any reason you don't understand the question 12 that I'm asking you, you'll let me know that and if you 13 don't let me know that, I'm going to assume that you did 14 understand the question. 15 Is that a fair agreement that we can have? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. Now, what are -- do I understand that you now 18 work part time for an entity called STS? 19 A. That is correct. 20 Q. And explain to me what STS is. 21 A. STS is a private firm and the home office is 22 in -- I think it's in Kansas, but they hire people to 23 help out at various Westinghouse plants. Most of them 24 were service engineers. When Northrop Grumman saw fit 25 to see that they had to be able to get the records, they HENJUM GOUCHER REPORTING SERVICES, L. P. 1-888-656-3376 JAMES GATE Page 14 1 went to STS and decided that, hey, we need help as far 2 as our records are concerned. And so I was asked by STS 3 to see if I could take the position with them and stay 4 at the Northrop Grumman, Sunnyvale plant to help them 5 out. 6 In this way, their everyday business of 7 Northrop Grumman, let's say, they would have the records 8 available and for new contracts and for past contracts 9 and for the service people and that's how I'm there or 10 the reason I'm there. 11 MR. HARVARD: Hold on. Would anybody who's on 12 the phone please hit the mute button on the phone. 13 We've heard some folks clanking away on their keyboards. 14 We'd appreciate it. 15 MR. SCOTT: Sure. Before we begin or go 16 forward, can we have the witness get closer to the 17 phone. I'm having a hard time hearing. 18 MR. SIEGEL: Q. Do you have a record 19 schedule at STS or do you work on a project basis as the 20 need arises? 21 A. I work on a project as the need arises. I do 22 not have a regular schedule. 23 Q. Do you have an office at STS? 24 A. Yes, I do. I have an office. 25 Q. And does STS have a physical office there at HENJUM GOUCHER REPORTING SERVICES, L. P. 1-888-656-3376 JAMES GATE 1 the Northrop Grumman facility in Sunnyvale? Page 15 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. And you go there on a regular basis to your 4 office? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. Approximately how many hours per week do you 7 spend working for STS? 8 A. It's about 20 hours and may go as high as 30 9 hours. 10 Q. Okay. STS is a subsidiary of Westinghouse, to 11 your knowledge? 12 A. No. 13 Q. STS is just a division within Westinghouse? 14 A. No. Westinghouse is a private firm. It has 15 stock and I don't know what else to say, but it's a 16 private firm. Privately held firm. 17 Q. I understand that you're not being produced as 18 a person to testify about the corporate status of any 19 entity, including Westinghouse or STS, but I just want 20 you to give me your understanding of the relationship 21 between STS and Westinghouse. 22 A. STS personnel were -- some of them were 23 Westinghouse people or engineers. STS, though, also 24 hires -- most of them are retired personnel from other 25 companies, but they are mainly there to help service HENJUM GOUCHER REPORTING SERVICES, L. P. 1-888-656-3376 JAMES GATE Page 16 1 turbine type equipment or ancillary equipment, various 2 types of equipment, but they are service engineers. 3 Q. What do the letters STS stand for? 4 A. Senior technical services. 5 Q. Is that co-owned by Westinghouse? 6 A. No. 7 Q. It's a separate company that just does a lot 8 of work for Westinghouse? 9 A. That's correct. 10 Q. Does it do work for any company other than 11 Westinghouse? 12 A. Yes, it does. 13 Q. Other than Northrop Grumman? 14 A. Yes, it does. 15 Q. Who would those companies be? 16 A. I don't know. 17 Q. Do you know if the majority of its work is 18 done for Westinghouse? 19 A. No, I don't. I do know this, though, I was 20 asked to go to China and spend five years there in 21 helping out a project that had nothing to do with 22 Westinghouse. 23 Q. I see. 24 A. So they get individual contracts for equipment 25 abroad or within the United States and they send HENJUM GOUCHER REPORTING SERVICES, L. P. 1-888-656-3376 JAMES GATE 1 engineers out there. 2 Q. When were you asked to do that? Page 17 3 A. I was asked to do that '98, 1998. 4 Q. I take it you did not go? 5 A. I'm still here. 6 Q. Have you yourself done any work for -- in 7 regard to companies other than Westinghouse while being 8 paid by STS? 9 A. No. Let's see, when I -- no. I just haven't. 10 Q. Okay. Now, have you done work for 11 Westinghouse or in connection with Westinghouse on 12 projects other than those resulting from litigation? 13 MR. HARVARD: I'm going to object to the form 14 because I 'm not sure that's clear, but if he can answer. 15 THE WITNESS: The answer is yes, I've worked 16 for projects for and with Northrop Grumman engineers. 17 MR. SIEGEL: Q. That had nothing to do with 18 any type of litigation, to your knowledge? 19 A. That's correct. 20 Q. How about for Westinghouse? 21 A. For Westinghouse, it would be litigation work. 22 Q. Okay. And has all of that litigation work 23 been -- let me ask you this: Has all that litigation 24 work been in connection with the Evert and Weathersby 25 firm? HENJUM GOUCHER REPORTING SERVICES, L. P. 1-888-656-3376 JAMES GATE 1 A. No. Page 18 2 Q. What other law firms have you done work for? 3 A. What's that one in Richmond, Virginia? 4 Q. The McGuire Woods firm? 5 A. McGuire Woods is one. This one here, 6 Morgenstein. There's a couple of others. 7 MR. HARVARD: You want me to help him? 8 THE WITNESS: Eckert Semans. I don't know if 9 you can name some more. 10 MR. HARVARD: Bill Bradley in New York. 11 THE WITNESS: Oh, yeah, Akin Gumb. 12 MR. HARVARD: And in West Virginia, Dave 13 Henderson? 14 THE WITNESS: That's right. Dave Henderson. 15 Scott Long. 16 MR. SIEGEL: Q. Now, you've written three 17 affidavits; one affidavit for each of the cases we're 18 here to discuss today. And we're going to go through 19 those affidavits in detail later and we'll mark them as 20 exhibits later, but all of these affidavits have to do 21 with Navy involvement or, as you put it, control over 22 the design and construction and operation of turbines 23 manufactured by Westinghouse; is that a fair statement? 24 A. That is a fair statement. 25 Q. Has any of your litigation work for HENJUM GOUCHER REPORTING SERVICES, L. P. 1-888-656-3376 JAMES GATE Page 19 1 Westinghouse involved any other subject? 2 A. No. 3 Q. To your knowledge, and you may or may not know 4 this, has any other person done work of this type that 5 you've done for Westinghouse for Westinghouse? 6 A. I don't know. 7 Q. Okay. So there's no one to your knowledge? 8 A. That's correct, I don't know. 9 Q. What is your rate of pay and how you are paid 10 by STS? 11 A. My rate of pay is $50 an hour. 12 Q. And are you paid on some different scale for 13 deposition work? 14 A. For deposition my rate of pay is $150 per 15 hour. 16 Q. When you search for records relevant to a 17 particular ship as you have done in these affidavits or 18 in connection with these affidavits, are you being paid 19 at the $50 rate? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. And you get a paycheck from STS? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. Have you ever gotten any check from 24 Westinghouse since you've retired and started doing this 25 type of work? HENJUM GOUCHER REPORTING SERVICES, L. P. 1-888-656-3376 JAMES GATE 1 A. No. Page 20 2 Q. Have you ever received a check from Evert and 3 Weathersby? 4 A. No. 5 Q. Or any other of these law firms you've 6 mentioned? 7 A. Yes, I have. 8 Q. Okay. Who would that be? 9 A. Akim Gumb, Eckert Semans. 10 Q. Are you paid by someone else just for 11 depositions or how does it work? Do you submit your 12 bill for depositions to STS or to the law firm or 13 somebody else? 14 A. I submit my bill to the law firm. 15 Q. And you typically get a check back from the 16 law firm? 17 A. Yes, but it takes a long time. 18 Q. My clients say the same thing. Okay. And so 19 in other words, at the end of today's deposition you'll 20 draw up a bill for however many hours it takes and send 21 it to Mr. Harvard? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. And do you understand that you are appearing 24 in this deposition and in these others as a witness for 25 Westinghouse Corporation? HENJUM GOUCHER REPORTING SERVICES, L. P. 1-888-656-3376 JAMES GATE 1 A. Yes. Page 21 2 Q. By the way, when I say Westinghouse 3 Corporation, is the correct name of that entity that 4 we're referring to Westinghouse Electric Corporation? 5 A. No. What you really should refer to is that I 6 represent the Westinghouse Marine Division and the 7 Marine Division was a separate entity as far as 8 engineering and a department was concerned in producing 9 turbines . 10 Q. But it was not a separate corporation? 11 A. But it was not a separate corporation. 12 Q. And the name of the corporation that it was a 13 division of was Westinghouse Electric Corporation? 14 MR. HARVARD: If you know. 15 MR. SIEGEL: Q. If you know. 16 A. I don't know. 17 Q. You simply thought of it as Westinghouse? 18 A. That's right. 19 Q. All right. I want to discuss with you the 20 process by which you search for records in connection 21 with litigation cases. First I want to ask you to tell 22 me what you know, if anything, about the nature of this 23 lawsuit. When I say this lawsuit, I mean the three 24 cases that this deposition was being taken in. 25 A. All I understand is that what was said earlier HENJUM GOUCHER REPORTING SERVICES, L. P. 1-888-656-3376 JAMES GATE 1 by you stating that it was in Federal Court and you Page 22 2 would like to remove it from Federal Court. That's all 3 I know. 4 Q. Where do you get that understanding? 5 A. From what you had stated earlier. 6 Q. From my remarks at the beginning of the 7 deposition? 8 A. That is correct. 9 Q. Have you had any discussions with Mr. Harvard 10 about the nature of this lawsuit? 11 A. Yes, I've had discussions with Mr. Harvard. 12 Q. And what did he tell you was the nature of 13 this lawsuit? 14 A. That it's possible that you could ask me quite 15 a number of questions from my affidavits. 16 Q. Did he tell you, for instance, who the 17 plaintiff is in the lawsuit? Do you know what I mean 18 when I say plaintiff? 19 A. The person that's using your firm to bring the 20 case. 21 Q. Right. Okay. 22 A. Right. 23 Q. Did he tell you who the plaintiffs are in 24 these three lawsuits? 25 A. He may have, but I don't try to remember them. HENJUM GOUCHER REPORTING SERVICES, L. P. 1-888-656-3376 JAMES GATE Page 23 1 Q. Sure. Okay. And do you understand -- do you 2 have any knowledge of what allegation is being made by 3 the plaintiffs in these lawsuits? 4 A. When you say allegation -- what allegations 5 they are making, no, not always because I only get the 6 name of the ship, which I know that is involved with the 7 lawsuit and I just researched the ship. I don't -- I do 8 not get involved with whatever claims they have. 9 Q. Okay. What else did Mr. Harvard tell you or 10 ask you in connection with this work? 11 A. You're going to ask me a lot of questions. 12 Q. That's it? 13 A. That's it. 14 Q. When did Mr. Harvard first contact you about 15 any of these three cases? 16 A. It was not Mr. Harvard. It was probably 17 someone at Eckert Semans wanting to know if I had the 18 records or could pull records on three ships, three or 19 four ships. 20 Q. And maybe you can answer this, but where and 21 what is the firm of Eckert Semans? I don't know them. 22 MR. HARVARD: They are out in Pittsburgh, Bob 23 Pulasi (phonetic) and some others were there formerly 24 affiliated with Westinghouse. They assumed the role 25 that McGuire Woods had served for Westinghouse a number HENJUM GOUCHER REPORTING SERVICES, L. P. 1-888-656-3376 JAMES GATE Page 24 1 of years ago. They act as national coordinating and 2 discovery counsel for Westinghouse in the cases. If you 3 send a discovery request, they are the ones who have -4 if you want to go look at the repository of documents 5 and some at McGuire, you would go through Eckert Semans 6 for it now. That's a role they've been serving for a 7 number of years. 8 MR. SIEGEL: Q. And who is the person that 9 contacted you at that firm? 10 A. Probably Laura Tate. 11 Q. When did she first contact you about any of 12 these cases? 13 A. A couple of months ago. 14 Q. A couple of months ago? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. Do you have any better idea of the exact time? 17 A. No. Because I get requests for ships about 18 every other day. 19 Q. Really? 20 A. And some of the lists are really long. 21 Q. Does she call you up and say we need the 22 records on such and such ship, or does she have any 23 greater discussion with you about what they need? 24 A. It's generally e-mail and it's generally the 25 name of the ship and hopefully the time frame on which HENJUM GOUCHER REPORTING SERVICES, L. P. 1-888-656-3376 JAMES GATE Page 25 1 the person had served aboard it. If she doesn't give me 2 that, I go back and ask her, hey, I need to know what 3 years the person was involved and served aboard that 4 ship or worked on that ship, but that's about it. 5 Q. Now, have you had any discussions with her or 6 someone else at that firm about the nature of the 7 allegations in this case? I earlier asked you about Mr. 8 Harvard, but I mean to extend that question to her and 9 anyone else at her firm. 10 A. The answer is no. 11 Q. Or anyone else at any firm for that matter? 12 A. I try not to get involved with that because I 13 have enough to do just finding records. 14 Q. Okay. So are you aware at all that the three 15 plaintiffs in these cases are widows who are making a 16 claim for the death of their Navy seamen husbands? 17 A. No, but I have seen on occasion where a widow 18 or a person involved with someone who had passed away 19 did have an affidavit only because I happen to see a 20 woman's name on there and I said, "Why? Is this a 21 shipyard worker?" My first question. And the answer is 22 no. I said, "Oh, well, that's all I need to know." 23 Q. So you thought the fact that it was a woman 24 made you question whether the woman herself was a 25 shipyard worker? HENJUM GOUCHER REPORTING SERVICES, L. P. 1-888-656-3376 JAMES GATE 1 A. Yes, exactly. Page 26 2 Q. And then you learned she was a widow seeking 3 recovery for the death of her husband? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. Okay. All right. When Ms. Tate -- is it 6 Tate, Laura Tate? 7 A. Laura Tate. 8 Q. -- sends you these e-mails, again, all she 9 puts in is here's the ships and here's the dates? 10 A. That's right. 11 Q. And you know from that information that you 12 are supposed to go get what exactly? 13 A. What I do is that from that information I try 14 to find that, number one, that the ship actually had 15 Westinghouse equipment aboard it. And I checked with 16 James and I check around and if it does, then what I do 17 is get an idea as to what equipment we may have had on 18 that ship and then we have a system that was set up 19 to -- by ships' names that we can tell that information 20 of the type of equipment aboard that ship. 21 For the turbines I pull the turbine records to 22 see if drawings were made and especially if thermal 23 insulation drawings were made or attachment drawings 24 were made. And once I know that, I can get back to her 25 and say that yes, I found the drawing list and I know HENJUM GOUCHER REPORTING SERVICES, L. P. 1-888-656-3376 JAMES GATE 1 that it is our equipment and it's these types of Page 27 2 turbines, and yeah, it's ours. 3 Q. Do you save the e-mails from Miss Tate or do 4 you delete them? 5 A. You don't want to save too many. I can get -- 6 I can knock off a hundred in a week easily. 7 Q. Knock off a hundred what? 8 A. E-mails. 9 Q. But -10 A. It's coming in at a rate of about almost 15 to 11 20 per day , but it's not all litigation work. It's the 12 Spam, you know, and all that stuff that's coming in. 13 Q. Of course. When you delete them, is any 14 further effort made by you or someone else to erase them 15 from the computer's memory in any form or fashion? 16 A. I do. 17 Q. You do? 18 A. I do. 19 Q. So are they deleted forever or just deleted 20 from your inbox? 21 A. Oh, no, they are deleted forever. 22 Q. They could not be recovered at this point? 23 A. That's right. I tried a couple of times. 24 Q. Really? 25 A. Right. I couldn't get it. HENJUM GOUCHER REPORTING SERVICES, L. P. 1-888-656-3376 JAMES GATE 1 Q. Why do you do that? Page 28 2 A. Because I don't want my memory to slow it up. 3 Q. Were you ever asked to do that by Miss Tate 4 or anyone else? 5 A. Oh, no. No, it's my own habits. 6 Q. Okay. So, for instance, if we wanted to know 7 the exact date that Ms. Tate first contacted you about 8 any of these ships, at this point we would not be able 9 to determine that? 10 A. You could always ask Miss Tate. 11 Q. Right. 12 A. That's what I would do. 13 Q. Okay. Now, once you look for the information 14 that you described, what do you do with it? 15 A. I tell her that I have found the information. 16 Q. Okay. 17 A. And then she can get back to me with respect 18 to wanting a copy of it or not wanting a copy of it. 19 Q. Okay. And how long does that process take? 20 In other words, you send her an e-mail saying I've found 21 such and such records for such and such ships and I will 22 wait to hear back from you further; is that what goes 23 on? 24 A. That's how it works. 25 Q. Okay. And then how long does it take her to HENJUM GOUCHER REPORTING SERVICES, L. P. 1-888-656-3376 JAMES GATE 1 let you know whether she wants you to do something Page 29 2 further in connection with that ship? 3 A. I don't know how much longer because sometimes 4 they never come back. 5 Q. Typically when she does ask you to do 6 something further, how long does that take for her to 7 get back to you? It can vary? 8 A. It varies. There's no set pattern. 9 Q. And if she does want further action from you, 10 what is it likely to be? 11 A. It comes as an e-mail as to what she wants. 12 Q. In these three cases, what did she ask you to 13 do further once you told her -- well, let's -- let me 14 start over. 15 In these three cases, I presume you found some 16 records on each case that prompted some further request 17 for action from her? 18 A. I was told to see if we had the material so 19 that we could prepare an affidavit. 20 Q. I'm sorry, what material? 21 A. The material being the drawing list and 22 drawings . 23 Q. So I want to make sure I understand correctly. 24 When she first contacted you about these cases, did she 25 tell you we are going to need an affidavit from you, HENJUM GOUCHER REPORTING SERVICES, L. P. 1-888-656-3376 JAMES GATE 1 please look for the materials? Or did she just say Page 30 2 please let me know what you have on these ships? 3 A. It was more like please let me know what you 4 have on these ships, because she did not know whether it 5 was Westinghouse material on those ships or it was other 6 people. 7 Q. Okay. So you let her know what you had and 8 then she asked you to prepare an affidavit; is that 9 correct? 10 A. Right. 11 Q. And that would be true for each one of these 12 three cases? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. That was the process that unfolded on each of 15 these cases? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. Okay. When she asked you to prepare an 18 affidavit, again, do you know what date that would be 19 roughly? 20 A. No. 21 Q. But it would be less than two months ago, do 22 you think? 23 A. I think so. 24 Q. Okay. What do you do once she asks you to 25 prepare an affidavit? HENJUM GOUCHER REPORTING SERVICES, L. P. 1-888-656-3376 JAMES GATE Page 31 1 A. I go and look at the affidavits that I had 2 prepared previously and I use that as a format. I check 3 the dates that the vessel was built and when the 4 plaintiff said that he served aboard it. And then I 5 then go and make sure that the time period is correct 6 and make out the affidavit. 7 Q. Now, do you have this affidavit as a form on 8 your word processing program? 9 A. I don't have it as a form, okay. I do have 10 copies of it and I keep it -- I keep a copy of it, so 11 that -- but, I suppose if I go to the last one -- let's 12 say this, I always have the last one. 13 Q. Right. 14 A. I don't have lots of copies. 15 Q. Right. So you go to the last one, substitute 16 the vessel and the dates and sign it; is that correct? 17 A. Well, in front of a notary. 18 Q. Right. Now, these affidavits are identical, 19 correct, except for the name of the ship and the number 20 of the ship? 21 A. No. There are -- there are changes in them 22 because from time to time when I go through and read 23 them I make little changes. It's a habit of an 24 engineer. He's always trying to improve and that's what 25 happens, but anyway, there are changes in there. HENJUM GOUCHER REPORTING SERVICES, L. P. 1-888-656-3376 JAMES GATE Page 32 1 Q. Okay. Do you -- there may be, but I'm not 2 aware of any differences among these three affidavits 3 other than the name of the ship, wherever you recite the 4 name of the ship, that is changed and the number of the 5 ship. But otherwise, to your knowledge, are there any 6 differences among these three affidavits? 7 A. I would have to sit down and compare word for 8 word because I don't remember, let's say. Once I've 9 completed it, had it notarized and sent off, it's out of 10 my mind because I have to go on to the next item. 11 Q. Okay. When you decide to change the form, if 12 you will, and you said -- you've testified that you 13 occasionally tinker with the form, in other words, you 14 make changes other than changes related to specific 15 ships, you make changes in the universal statements, if 16 you will, do you discuss those changes with Ms. Gate - 17 I'm sorry, Ms. Tate or any other person? 18 A. No, I don't. It's -- it's my opinion and it's 19 my experience and from time to time I must admit that 20 I'm trying to improve upon getting the message across, 21 but it's strictly my writing. 22 Q. What is the message that you're trying to get 23 across? 24 A. What was happening as far as the ship was 25 concerned. I mean, what the Navy oversight was at our HENJUM GOUCHER REPORTING SERVICES, L. P. 1-888-656-3376 JAMES GATE 1 plant, whether it be at Lester or whether it be at Page 33 2 Sunnyvale . 3 Q. How did you decide to try to get that message 4 across? 5 A. You're always trying to do that every time you 6 write an affidavit. 7 Q. Why? 8 A. Because that's my experience. 9 Q. But why is that a message that you want to 10 convey in these affidavits? 11 A. Because that's my experience. 12 Q. Who asks you to convey that message? 13 A. No one. 14 Q. Who first asked you to write such an affidavit 15 in the first place? 16 A. McGuire Woods, one of the -- probably one of 17 the very first cases. 18 Q. Whose decision was it to try to convey that 19 message? 20 A. It was me. They asked me if I could write an 21 affidavit on my experience. And I said I would sit down 22 and do it . 23 Q. But as you've testified, the affidavit is 24 written to convey a particular view of past events; is 25 that a fair statement? HENJUM GOUCHER REPORTING SERVICES, L. P. 1-888-656-3376 JAMES GATE 1 A. Yes. Page 34 2 Q. And what I'm simply asking is who asked for 3 that view to be conveyed? 4 A. McGuire Woods. 5 Q. And roughly when was that? 6 A. Early '90s. 7 Q. And have you considered that the message that 8 is to be conveyed in these affidavits ever since? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. And from time to time you make changes in the 11 form of the affidavit in order to better convey that 12 message; is that a fair statement? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. And you say you've never discussed those 15 changes with McGuire Woods or Eckert Semans or anyone at 16 any law firm? 17 A. The discussion comes about when they review it 18 and they say, "Oh, you made a change." 19 I say, "Oh, sorry, I didn't point it out to 20 you." And that's how it comes about. 21 And then they say, "Are you aware that you are 22 changing ?" 23 I said, "Yes, I'm aware that I'm changing." 24 Q. Okay. Have they ever asked you to not make a 25 certain change? HENJUM GOUCHER REPORTING SERVICES, L. P. 1-888-656-3376 JAMES GATE 1 A. No. Page 35 2 Q. Have they ever expressed pleasure or 3 displeasure with any particular change you've made? 4 A. No. 5 Q. In other words, from time to time you simply 6 tinker with the affidavit and send it to them and that's 7 what it is? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. And they've never attempted to change in any 10 way or influence in any way the content of the affidavit? 11 A. No. 12 Q. Okay. Now, I've seen past versions of the 13 affidavit and one change I've noticed is that the more 14 recent versions name individual people that you either 15 worked under or, quote, interfaced with; is that 16 correct? 17 A. That is correct. 18 Q. And that's a sort of change in the form that 19 has come about in the last two or three years. Would 20 that be a fair statement? 21 A. No. It happened many years ago, I thought. 22 It's more than five or six years ago. 23 Q. And why was that change made? 24 A. It was our understanding that the initial 25 affidavits that I made were too general. They had to be HENJUM GOUCHER REPORTING SERVICES, L. P. 1-888-656-3376 JAMES GATE Page 36 1 more focused with the people that I interfaced with. I 2 said, well, that's not a problem. I said I can name all 3 these people and put the different time periods and so 4 when we know when the ship was built, we will name the 5 appropriate people who are in command. And that's why 6 you see changes. 7 Q. Who asked you to be more specific in terms of 8 naming people? 9 A. I think it was McGuire Woods. 10 Q. Okay. And did they tell you that that was a 11 change that was made necessary by a court decision or 12 anything or did they just ask for that change to be made 13 without telling you why? 14 A. There was something involved with the court. 15 I don't know the background, but there was a court 16 involved and therefore there was some concern whether I 17 could remember names and I said, "That's the easiest 18 thing for me to remember." I said, "I just didn't put 19 it in there." 20 Q. Did you read a copy of the court decision? 21 A. No. 22 Q. Did they tell what you the name of the court 23 decision was? 24 A. No. 25 Q. Does the Good case ring any bell to you? HENJUM GOUCHER REPORTING SERVICES, L. P. 1-888-656-3376 JAMES GATE 1 A. No. Page 37 2 Q. All right. So you came up with data on these 3 three ships or ships relating to three people and you 4 inserted them into the appropriate places in the 5 affidavit and printed out three versions of the 6 affidavit and signed them in front of a notary; is that 7 correct? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. And then you send them off to Miss Tate or 10 what? 11 A. Whoever wants it. I don't know who. 12 Q. What happens after that? What happens next in 13 the process? 14 A. I don't know. 15 Q. Do you -- did you at some point get a 16 communication from Miss Tate or someone else about a 17 deposition request? 18 MR. HARVARD: Are you talking about in these 19 affidavits? 20 MR. SIEGEL: These three cases. 21 MR. HARVARD: He's talking now about what 22 happened after you sent off the affidavits in these 23 cases that you've prepared. The ones that you prepared. 24 THE WITNESS: Yes. I did get a phone call or 25 I got an e-mail that said yes, expect to appear for a HENJUM GOUCHER REPORTING SERVICES, L. P. 1-888-656-3376 JAMES GATE 1 deposition. Page 38 2 MR. SIEGEL: Q. How many times have you 3 testified in trial? 4 A. Once. 5 Q. And that was in Mississippi? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. How many times have you been deposed? 8 A. Six or seven times. 9 Q. At any time has anyone from the -- from any 10 law firm asked you to make any other changes to the form 11 of the affidavit other than the change about specific 12 names of specific people? 13 A. No. 14 Q. Let me go through the people that you've named 15 with you because we're trying to locate them. A. L. 16 Rosenstein. First of all, what is his name? 17 A. I think it was Al Rosenstein. 18 Q. Al Rosenstein? 19 A. Right. 20 Q. And you refer to him as a chief INM. For the 21 record, what is an INM? 22 A. Inspector of Naval Machinery. 23 Q. And you refer to him as being formerly 24 stationed at the Westinghouse, Lester, Pennsylvania 25 plant. First of all, is the Lester, Pennsylvania -- is HENJUM GOUCHER REPORTING SERVICES, L. P. 1-888-656-3376 JAMES GATE 1 Lester a suburb of Philadelphia? Page 39 2 A. Yes, it is. 3 Q. Is that the same as the South Philadelphia 4 Works? 5 A. Yes, it is. It's also known as Essington, 6 too. 7 Q. Yes, I've seen that as well. 8 What years did you, quote, personally interact 9 with Inspector Rosenstein, roughly? 10 A. Roughly, okay. Naturally 1953 when I came and 11 probably at least 19 -- I'm guessing -- '55, '56. 12 Q. Is that when he left Lester? 13 A. Yes. He was replaced. That is correct. He 14 was replaced by Earle -- I think his name was Oscar 15 Earle. 16 Q. O. Earle is Oscar Earle? 17 A. Yeah. I you're asking me 60-year-old 18 questions . 19 Q. Yes. 20 MR. HARVARD: And you're doing fine. 21 MR. RIDLEY: Tables are turned. 22 MR. SIEGEL: Q. All right. Now, did Al 23 Rosenstein go somewhere else with the Navy that you know 24 of? 25 A. I have no idea. HENJUM GOUCHER REPORTING SERVICES, L. P. 1-888-656-3376 JAMES GATE Page 40 1 Q. Have you had any contact with him or 2 information about him since 1956 or so? 3 A. No. 4 Q. How old a man was he when you worked with him? 5 A. He must be in his 50s. 6 Q. At that time he was in his 50s? 7 A. I think he was in his 50s, and yeah, close 8 to -- between 50 and 60. 9 Q. It's going to be tough to find him today 10 probably? 11 MR. HARVARD: I'll put him as hundreds now. 12 MR. SIEGEL: Q. How about Oscar Earle? 13 A. Oscar Earle, he was about five or six years 14 younger and I think he was there -- I'm not too sure if 15 he was there when I left, but -- so he was -- if he took 16 over in about '55, '56 and I left in '64, so he could 17 have gone on or he could have still been there by 1960. 18 I just can't remember. 19 Q. Do you recall him being there at the time you 20 left in ' 64? 21 A. No, I don't. I don't know if he was there or 22 not there . 23 Q. Have you had any further contact with him or 24 knowledge of him since 1964? 25 A. No. HENJUM GOUCHER REPORTING SERVICES, L. P. 1-888-656-3376 JAMES GATE Page 41 1 Q. Now, when you say you left in 1964, that's 2 because Westinghouse moved its -3 A. Marine division to Sunnyvale. 4 Q. Did there continue to be a Westinghouse 5 operation in Lester, Pennsylvania? 6 A. No. There was not a Westinghouse Marine 7 Division operation. The only thing that happened was 8 that one engineer or two engineers remained behind to 9 oversee the completion of the manufacturing of the units 10 that were still in the shop. Once that ceased they then 11 came out to Sunnyvale. 12 Q. I see. Now, as I understand it, people such 13 as Captain Rosenstein and Captain Earle, were they 14 civilian Navy employees? 15 A. No, regular Navy. 16 Q. And they -- did they move with Westinghouse to 17 Sunnyvale? 18 A. No, they did not. 19 Q. Were there new people from the Navy who came 20 aboard, if you will, at Sunnyvale? 21 A. No. Sunnyvale also built missile tubes for 22 the submarines and they already had their own inspector 23 of Naval machinery and there were people there. I don't 24 know what the name -- I think that's where the name of 25 defense management contract came from, but they had HENJUM GOUCHER REPORTING SERVICES, L. P. 1-888-656-3376 JAMES GATE Page 42 1 their own Naval personnel and people manning the office 2 were regular Navy also. 3 Q. Now, you mentioned another person at the 4 Lester plant, James Moodie. Okay. Tell me who he was. 5 A. James Moodie was the chief inspector for 6 manufacturing and for testing for the Navy. 7 Q. Okay. Now, he's -- did he have some different 8 status? He's not listed as a captain like Rosenstein 9 and Earle are. 10 A. I think he was civil service. I never saw him 11 with a uniform on . I never did address him as captain 12 or commander or anything like that. So I would say he 13 was civil service working for the Navy. 14 Q. Okay. All right. And did you lose contact 15 with him as well after 1964? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. How old a man was he then? 18 A. '64, he was close to his 60s. 19 Q. And haven't heard anything about him or from 20 him since 1964? 21 A. No. 22 Q. Okay. All right. The next man you list is a 23 man named Howard Ball. Who was he? 24 A. Howard Ball was the head of the Marine turbine 25 and gear section at the Bureau of Ships. And he was HENJUM GOUCHER REPORTING SERVICES, L. P. 1-888-656-3376 JAMES GATE 1 one -- since being head of the department of the Page 43 2 turbines, on occasion when we would go to Washington, we 3 would meet with him. 4 Q. And he was -- his office was in Washington, 5 not Philadelphia? 6 A. That's right. He is located at the Bureau of 7 Ships -- the old Navy building on Pennsylvania Avenue. 8 Well, that's where he was. 9 Q. So, the other people that we've talked about 10 up until now, Rosenstein, Earle and Moodie, they all had 11 offices right there at the Westinghouse plant in 12 Philadelphia? 13 A. That is correct. 14 Q. And their full-time jobs as either officers in 15 or employees of the Navy was to inspect equipment that 16 Westinghouse was manufacturing? 17 A. Yes, but not only that, they also monitored 18 our design work, our testing, our drawings. They looked 19 at our drawings. They would approve. They worked with 20 us in the tech manuals. They would approve them also. 21 They were in the approval process of whatever the Navy 22 ordered with respect to turbines. 23 Q. Now, was the only thing that was being made by 24 Westinghouse at this facility turbines? 25 A. No. At Lester we made the Marine turbines, HENJUM GOUCHER REPORTING SERVICES, L. P. 1-888-656-3376 JAMES GATE Page 44 1 high pressure and low pressure turbine generator sets. 2 We made the condensers. We made the air rejectors. We 3 did make some of the pumps. We had our own design of 4 pumps, but we certainly made the turbine driving the 5 pump, so we made some types of pumps also there. 6 Q. Okay. And did the Navy personnel have 7 responsibility for looking at the work on all of those 8 products ? 9 A. That is correct. 10 Q. All right. I'm going to ask questions about 11 that in a little while, but back to Howard Ball. Howard 12 Ball was a -- was he civilian or an officer? 13 A. Oh, he was civilian and he was in his early -14 I wouldn 't say early, late 50s or 60s because the people 15 rotated their chairs. As the senior one retired, then 16 the next one would go up the ladder and assume his 17 position . 18 MR. HARVARD: Roughly when was he in his late 19 50s? 20 THE WITNESS: Okay, that's a good point. '54 21 or '55. 22 MR. SIEGEL: Q. After 1964 did you ever go 23 back to Washington to meet Howard Ball? 24 A. Never saw him there. 25 Q. But you would occasionally make the same kind HENJUM GOUCHER REPORTING SERVICES, L. P. 1-888-656-3376 JAMES GATE 1 of trips to Washington? Page 45 2 A. Yes, I would. 3 Q. All right. The next person you've listed is 4 Walter Sharp. Who is he? 5 A. Walter Sharp was a -- again, a civilian and he 6 headed up -- when I first met him he headed up the 7 turbine group and he did the main propulsion turbines 8 and he was responsible for the specifications of them 9 and testing and then he moved into Howard Ball's chair 10 when Howard left and then had the -- had that 11 department, the turbines and the gears and I think all 12 Marine equipment. 13 Q. So he was a civilian person at the Navy 14 department at the Bureau of Ships, more precisely, in 15 Washington, D.C.? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. How old was he roughly? 18 A. Well, let's see, if he moved in there about 19 19 -- at that time he must have been about 55 or 50, 55. 20 MR. HARVARD: At what time? 21 THE WITNESS: Oh, that's in 1960. 22 MR. SIEGEL: Q. And any contact with him 23 after moving to California? 24 A. No. 25 Q. Last but not least, Robert Trout? HENJUM GOUCHER REPORTING SERVICES, L. P. 1-888-656-3376 JAMES GATE Page 46 1 A. Robert Trout had the auxiliary turbines. They 2 are the turbines that drive thegenerators, the pumps 3 and the blowers. Robert -- this amazed me because he 4 wrote, I know, the specifications for small turbines and 5 he was -- he was about -- when I met him, first met him 6 in 1950s, at that time I thought he was in his mid to 7 late 50s, but yet I know that he was there longer - 8 longer than everyone else, so he probably was a little 9 longer than that, so that would say -- I'm saying 1953 10 or '54 he was - - let's say, he was about 50 or 51 or 11 something like that. 12 Q. Okay. I'm sorry, in what year was he, in 13 1954? 14 A. Yeah, '54. 15 Q. He was in his early 50s? 16 A. Yeah, he was in his 50s. He sort of fooled me 17 because he was always -- well, he sort of outlived, or 18 whatever you want to call it, stayed at the bureau 19 longer than any of his cohorts there. 20 Q. I see. 21 MR. HARVARD: Off the record a second. 22 (Discussion held off the record.) 23 MR. SIEGEL: Q. Okay. I think those are all 24 the individual persons that are referred to in these 25 affidavits. HENJUM GOUCHER REPORTING SERVICES, L. P. 1-888-656-3376 JAMES GATE Page 47 1 Are there any other persons that you have not 2 mentioned in these affidavits, but whom you think of as 3 having worked under the direction of? Any other people, 4 Navy people that you can name? 5 A. No, I think I did a pretty good job with that. 6 Q. Um-hum. Now -- and you say that you've - 7 it's been at least 20 or 30 years, if not longer, that 8 you've had any contact with any of these people? 9 A. That is correct. 10 Q. Have you had any contact with anybody from the 11 Navy at all since you began doing this 12 litigation-related work? I mean, in regard to this 13 subject matter. I don't mean a social contact with 14 anyone. Somebody at the Navy, but have you spoken to 15 anyone at the Navy or formerly with the Navy concerning 16 this subject matter? 17 A. No. 18 Q. Have you spoken with anyone else other than 19 people working for these law firms concerning this 20 subject matter? 21 A. No. 22 Q. I think I've asked this before, but I need to 23 ask it again in case I didn't. 24 Have you done litigation related work for any 25 companies other than Westinghouse or Northrop Grumman? HENJUM GOUCHER REPORTING SERVICES, L. P. 1-888-656-3376 JAMES GATE 1 A. No. Page 48 2 Q. In composing these affidavits, have you gone 3 back and looked at -- well, I know Mr. Harvard said that 4 you've -- you rely generally on, theoretically on 5 everything you ever saw in your career in the formation 6 of your opinion, but have you specifically gone back and 7 consulted any sources other than particular ship records 8 that you' ve been asked to look for? 9 MR. HARVARD: And the materials that we've 10 produced here today. 11 MR. SIEGEL: Q. Right. 12 A. They are the main sources of information that 13 I've used to prepare the affidavits. 14 Q. Okay. Do you have any changes in mind to any 15 future affidavits or do you have anything in mind right 16 now that you might use to improve the message, so to 17 speak, next time you write this affidavit? 18 A. No. 19 Q. Now, when you testified in trial in 20 Mississippi, did you -- was that the same message that 21 you were trying to convey? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. And you viewed that as the purpose of your 24 trial testimony? 25 A. Yes. HENJUM GOUCHER REPORTING SERVICES, L. P. 1-888-656-3376 JAMES GATE Page 49 1 Q. And what is your understanding of why that 2 message is called for or relevant to these legal 3 proceedings? 4 MR. HARVARD: If you have an understanding. 5 THE WITNESS: I don't in that the work that I 6 do is placed on the affidavit and I know I'm getting 7 asked a lot of questions, but the experience that I went 8 through when I first went with Westinghouse and in later 9 years when I had to design turbines hasn't changed. In 10 other words, the people that designed the World War II 11 destroyers, that interfaced with the people at the 12 Bureau of Ships. I've been all these people. I worked 13 with design engineers that explained to me the purpose 14 of why we did things the way we did and it made good 15 sense. 16 All I'm saying is that if there are 17 differences, in which I did point out, improvements in 18 the affidavits, it's only because working these 19 affidavits it suddenly dawns on me that the procedure 20 that I'm using or the method that I'm using I probably 21 didn't explain it quite that well. Even though it's 22 like 50 years ago, it's -- it can be highlighted a 23 little differently. But the systems we used hasn't 24 changed. 25 The design rules we use, yes, they've been HENJUM GOUCHER REPORTING SERVICES, L. P. 1-888-656-3376 JAMES GATE 1 improved upon, but the reference materials haven't Page 50 2 changed much. The reference materials are what the Navy 3 has been using in the general specification for ships 4 for many years. And we try to spot any changes that 5 they make. And we try to be aware of what the latest 6 developments are as far as mechanical or mechanical 7 design, but we're trying to -- let's say, it's easier to 8 know what was done in the past and follow through with 9 that for future designs. 10 We don't make changes very rapidly and when 11 asked by the Navy to make changes, we make sure that 12 we're following exactly what they want, so that they are 13 with us with the testing of the equipment, in the design 14 of the equipment, and their approval. Because if we 15 don't get their approval, we're shut down. We have to 16 then go back and redevelop and it takes time and money. 17 So we want them to understand what we're doing. And I 18 think that's what we're trying to point out in the 19 affidavits. 20 Q. Now, youunderstand thatthese affidavits are 21 being used in legal proceedings; is that right? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. And do you understand thatthey are being used 24 by Westinghouse? 25 A. Yes. HENJUM GOUCHER REPORTING SERVICES, L. P. 1-888-656-3376 JAMES GATE Page 51 1 Q. To help defend themselves in lawsuits? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. What I want to know is why do you consider 4 this message to be helpful to Westinghouse's defense in 5 a lawsuit? 6 MR. HARVARD: If you know. 7 THE WITNESS: It's what we did. In other 8 words, it is what the design engineer at Westinghouse 9 did as a result of obtaining a contract from the Navy. 10 MR. SIEGEL: Q.Do you see the message as 11 you can't blame us because we just did what the Navy 12 told us to do? 13 MR. HARVARD: Objection, argumentative. You 14 can answer it if you can. 15 THE WITNESS: I can't answer a question like 16 that. 17 MR. SIEGEL: Q.Why can't you answer that 18 question? 19 A. Because we followed the rules as to what the 20 Navy did, right. That's all I can say. 21 Q. Okay. And do you consider that helpful to 22 Westinghouse's defense because it sort of shifts 23 responsibility away from Westinghouse and onto the Navy? 24 MR. HARVARD: Objection, argumentative. You 25 can answer if you can. HENJUM GOUCHER REPORTING SERVICES, L. P. 1-888-656-3376 JAMES GATE Page 52 1 THE WITNESS: I can only state that the 2 affidavit is an outline as to what an average engineer 3 does when he obtains a contract for a vessel in 4 interfacing with the Navy and obtaining the piece of 5 machinery that they want to put aboard ship. 6 MR. SIEGEL: Q. And it was McGuire Woods 7 that asked you to convey this message? 8 A. It was McGuire Woods who had asked me to make 9 an affidavit. 10 Q. To convey the message you're talking about? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. Okay. When was the first time that you -- let 13 me ask you this -- do you want to take a break now or do 14 you want to continue going on? 15 MR. HARVARD: Whenever you want to take a 16 break, you just holler. 17 THE WITNESS: That's a good idea. 18 (Recess taken.) 19 MR. SIEGEL: Q. Mr. Gate, when you are 20 contacted by Laura Tate or by someone else concerning 21 information that's needed for a particular ship, how do 22 you bill -- how do you bill her? Do you bill her right 23 there or the next day after you've looked for the ship 24 or do you wait until maybe you give a deposition before 25 billing them, or when do you send out your bill for work HENJUM GOUCHER REPORTING SERVICES, L. P. 1-888-656-3376 JAMES GATE Page 53 1 in connection with a particular ship or I should say in 2 connection with a request by Ms. Tate? 3 A. All right. I make out time sheets, so I make 4 out a daily time sheet, which will cover one week. And 5 I will put down the name of the vessel that I worked on 6 and the number of hours, and then at the end of the week 7 I total the hours and at the end of the month I total 8 the -- I take the four totals of the weeks and send them 9 off to STS. 10 Q. So every month you send a bill for your time 11 to STS? 12 A. That is correct. 13 Q. And then they may send an invoice to a law 14 firm, or do you ever bill a law firm directly? 15 A. Only at a deposition. 16 Q. Only for deposition time? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. So if we wanted -- another way that we could 19 learn when you began work in connection with these three 20 cases would be to get your bills submitted to STS? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. Okay. Now, to your knowledge does STS then 23 turn around and bill law firms or what? 24 A. I think they do because someone has to get 25 paid. HENJUM GOUCHER REPORTING SERVICES, L. P. 1-888-656-3376 JAMES GATE 1 Q. But STS pays you $50 an hour? 2 A. Yes. Page 54 3 Q. All right. Now, you're aware, right, that 4 these cases concern allegations about asbestos exposure? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. And do you generally know what the plaintiff 7 is alleging concerning asbestos exposure? 8 A. No. 9 Q. All you know is that the case involves 10 asbestos in some way? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. Are you aware that it involves an allegation 13 of wrongful death? 14 A. No. 15 Q. Have you known that about any case you've ever 16 worked on for Westinghouse? 17 A. Ask that question again. I'm not too sure. 18 Q. You're not aware of that for these three 19 cases, but have you been aware of that allegation in 20 connection with other ships you've worked on for 21 Westinghouse? 22 A. When you say allegation, what are you 23 trying -- 24 Q. Wrongful death. 25 A. No. HENJUM GOUCHER REPORTING SERVICES, L. P. 1-888-656-3376 JAMES GATE Page 55 1 Q. Do you -- so you're not familiar with what the 2 plaintiffs are claiming in these cases other than the 3 fact that it has something to do with asbestos. Is that 4 a fair statement? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. Okay. Are you aware that the plaintiffs are 7 suing Westinghouse? Has anyone ever told you that in 8 connection with this work? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. And how have they described that to you? 11 A. I don't know. All I can say is there's a case 12 against Westinghouse. 13 Q. And did you ever ask what is the case about, 14 what are they saying Westinghouse did or didn't do? 15 A. They would just say it's about asbestos. 16 Q. Do you have any knowledge of what allegation 17 is made against Westinghouse concerning asbestos? 18 A. No. 19 Q. So you really have no knowledge of what the 20 plaintiffs are claiming concerning Westinghouse; is that 21 right? 22 A. Only that it's involved with asbestos. 23 Q. When McGuire Woods told you what message they 24 needed you to convey, did they tell you it was in regard 25 to asbestos cases? HENJUM GOUCHER REPORTING SERVICES, L. P. 1-888-656-3376 JAMES GATE 1 A. Yes. Page 56 2 Q. And did they say why they needed that message 3 conveyed? 4 A. It's a matter of why or understanding what the 5 average engineer did during his work in producing 6 turbines that we were trying to tell people what was 7 happening as far as the designs and the manufacturing of 8 the turbines. 9 Q. And you have no knowledge about, in these 10 three cases now, any facts regarding the particular 11 seamen or the particular widows or anything like that? 12 A. Only to the dates in which they served aboard 13 those vessels. 14 Q. When was the first time that you worked with 15 asbestos? 16 A. When I was a -- when I was at the academy I 17 was involved with -- and I didn't realize it at the time 18 that it was asbestos. And that was we had a fire in 19 the -- we had a fire in the boiler and it had to be put 20 out. 21 We shut down the boiler, took out the burner, 22 suited up the skinniest person to go into the boiler and 23 to make sure that the flames were out and make sure that 24 the slag as a result of the burner oil would not flare 25 up again, so you had to dig that stuff out. HENJUM GOUCHER REPORTING SERVICES, L. P. 1-888-656-3376 JAMES GATE Page 57 1 I was the skinniest guy in the engine room. I 2 got suited up in a suit. It was very light material. I 3 went in there and they said, "Don't worry, we'll pull 4 you out every ten minutes and make sure that you're 5 still moving, but we'll watch you." I said fine and it 6 was hot in there and we -- I got the slag out and I came 7 out and things were done. 8 MR. HARVARD: All right. He asked you when 9 that was, Jim. Tell him whichacademy and roughly what 10 year that would have been. 11 THE WITNESS: I was at the Merchant Marine 12 Academy and that was in 1950. 13 MR. RIDLEY: Didyou say Merchant Marine? 14 THE WITNESS: Yes, Merchant Marine Academy. 15 MR. SIEGEL: Q. Was this a training exercise 16 or actually a fire that had to be dealt with? 17 A. It was a regular merchant ship and it was an 18 accidental fire. 19 Q. And you later at some point learned that the 20 suit they had given you was an asbestos suit? 21 A. Yes. It was probably when I came out. The 22 chief engineer was telling me and then I realized there 23 was other material around the engine room that was 24 asbestos. We used asbestos clothes to change our 25 burners all the time. It became apparent that there was HENJUM GOUCHER REPORTING SERVICES, L. P. 1-888-656-3376 JAMES GATE 1 asbestos in the engine room. Page 58 2 Q. When you worked for Westinghouse at 3 Philadelphia, did you know a man named Haslick 4 (phonetic)? 5 A. Haslick doesn't ring a bell. 6 Q. Lyle Haslick, does that ring any bell to you? 7 A. No. 8 Q. Did you know of any industrial hygiene or 9 occupational safety department at Philadelphia? 10 A. No. 11 Q. Was there such a thing to your knowledge? 12 A. It was the nurse at the dispensary, that's the 13 people I would go to for my earplugs, for noise and 14 other things. Right. 15 Q. But was there any department or person whose 16 job it was to look after the safety of working 17 conditions of Westinghouse employees? 18 A. There may have been, but I was never in 19 contact with them. 20 Q. Not that you knew of? 21 A. That's right. 22 Q. Did you all ever get safety briefings about 23 any particular topic? 24 MR. HARVARD: What period of time are you 25 talking about, at Philadelphia? HENJUM GOUCHER REPORTING SERVICES, L. P. 1-888-656-3376 JAMES GATE Page 59 1 MR. SIEGEL: Q. Yes, working at Philadelphia. 2 A. No. 3 Q. How about at Sunnyvale? 4 A. No. 5 Q. Never? 6 A. Never. 7 Q. Asbestos was used in various operations at 8 Philadelphia; is that correct, for various purposes? 9 A. Asbestos was used during testing of a turbine. 10 A subcontractor would come in and he would put the 11 thermal insulation on the turbine and then we would test 12 it and then they would come in and remove it. 13 Q. And did anyone ever tell you or anyone else, 14 to your knowledge, at Westinghouse that that insulation 15 could be hazardous in any way? 16 A. No. 17 Q. Either when it's being put on or removed or at 18 any time? 19 A. No. 20 Q. What was your first job for Westinghouse when 21 you joined them out at the Merchant Marine Academy? 22 A. My first job was to test the turbine generator 23 sets for the Saratoga class turbine generator sets and 24 that was a high pressure, high temperature job, which 25 did not -- could not use the ordinary steam lines in the HENJUM GOUCHER REPORTING SERVICES, L. P. 1-888-656-3376 JAMES GATE 1 shop. Page 60 2 We had to go to the -- what we call the Y 3 building lab where they had thousand pounds pressure and 4 thousand degrees temperature available and so I had to 5 oversee the testing for those turbine generator sets. 6 Q. What was your official title, if you had one, 7 at Westinghouse when you joined them? 8 A. Oh, I think it was junior engineer. 9 Q. Okay. All right. How long did that job take? 10 A. Oh, it took about a year at least. 11 Q. And what did you do next? I don't need to 12 know everything -- every ship that you've tested, but I 13 want to get an idea of what your jobs were during your 14 tenure at Westinghouse. 15 A. Oh, sure. I had a number of jobs in which 16 involved working along World War II destroyers. Those 17 destroyers were in use for at least ten years and they 18 had problems in the turbine generator sets, pumps, 19 the -- they would attach pumps within the turbine 20 generator sets itself. We had problems with the blowers 21 and I had to figure out why the bearings were burning 22 out on the blowers. 23 These jobs were turned over to the engineering 24 department mainly because the service department says, 25 you know, they are repeating themselves. In other HENJUM GOUCHER REPORTING SERVICES, L. P. 1-888-656-3376 JAMES GATE Page 61 1 words, if you have the same type of casualty on another 2 ship, then the service department says, you know, there 3 could be something wrong with the design, so the design 4 engineer has to go out there, take a look and say, yeah, 5 it could be a design problem and then stay with the - 6 that type of design until we get a solution. 7 Q. Now, when you say World War II destroyers, are 8 you referring to a type of destroyer or actually to 9 ships that had served in World War II that were now in 10 need of repair? Because you started eight years after 11 World War II ended, right? 12 A. That is right. But World War II destroyers 13 were built in 1941, '42, '43, '44.Ten years later, the 14 signs of wear and tear are showing up. 15 Q. Um-hum. 16 A. So they need someone out there who understands 17 their way around ships who can help, who can go down to 18 the engine room and help out as to figure out what could 19 be the cause of these problems. That was the main 20 reason I was hired. 21 They took the Merchant Marine Academy 22 graduate, and I was one being interviewed and said that 23 since I had been in the Navy as an enlisted man, I 24 should know my way around, being at the academy for four 25 years, that I had been out in the engine rooms, that HENJUM GOUCHER REPORTING SERVICES, L. P. 1-888-656-3376 JAMES GATE Page 62 1 they felt I could do the job. That was my experience 2 and troubleshooting like that for shipboard use has 3 never stopped. 4 In other words, even when I became supervisor, 5 manager, in the '70s, I still had to go out -- in the 6 '80s, still had to go out there and figure outwhy we 7 had the problems we had out there. 8 Q. So if I understand your early work at 9 Westinghouse correctly, a ship that was in service that 10 had been built for World War II was having a problem 11 with the turbine and the service department said this 12 problem continues to happen, let's have a design change 13 perhaps. And you would go look at that ship and figure 14 out whether and what kind of design change might ought 15 to be made? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. And these were -- when you say you would go 18 out, these were ships that would come into the 19 Philadelphia Naval yard or you'd go anywhere? 20 A. I'd go anywhere. Like you go out every Monday 21 and you come back hopefully every Friday and if you're 22 out for more than three weeks, then you get a phone 23 call. 24 Q. And so you would go to Naval yards all over 25 the country; is that right? HENJUM GOUCHER REPORTING SERVICES, L. P. 1-888-656-3376 JAMES GATE 1 A. Yes, variousports. Yes. Page 63 2 Q. And you would look at the problem that a 3 turbine was having or some other piece of shipboard 4 machinery? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. And sometimes youwould conclude that instead 7 of simply making repairs, you ought to change how the 8 thing worked? 9 A. Sometimes. 10 Q. And what would happen if you decided that a 11 change should be made? 12 A. What I would do is I would speak to the chief 13 engineer and state that number one, I will make a phone 14 call to my manager to verify that what I'm looking at 15 and what my solution should be is he is in agreement. 16 I would tell the chief engineer also that when 17 I come back and it is okayed and he has to go to his 18 superior to make sure that they are in agreement, so 19 that would be the skipper of the ship and it would also 20 mean getting back to the Bureau of Ships because the 21 Bureau of Ships wants to know when they have casualties 22 out there whether or not it is something that they had 23 seen on other ships or whether -- whatever I had in mind 24 could be done in their opinion. 25 The other thing, as far as the skipper of the HENJUM GOUCHER REPORTING SERVICES, L. P. 1-888-656-3376 JAMES GATE Page 64 1 ship is concerned, he has to make ship movements and 2 when ship movements are in jeopardy, then he has to be 3 aware that his squadron commander, and it goes up the 4 line, that everybody knows that that ship might not be 5 on that particular maneuver. 6 Q. Meaning a design change that you might make 7 might make a certain type of maneuver in the water 8 impossible? 9 A. No. No. Sorry. 10 What I mean is that ships operate, you know, 11 not too often, destroyers especially, singly. They 12 operate in sqaudrons. When there's a ship movement, 13 meaning that it could be a convoy, it could be an 14 exercise, of course -- you know I did it all in peace 15 time so it generally was an exercise, so all these 16 people have to be notified. 17 I'll tell you another funny little story and 18 that is more than once they took me along with them on 19 their movement and I had to be flown off the ship to 20 make sure that everything was okay in their opinion. 21 This is when generally I bought the -- I had a change 22 that could be applicable right there. In other words, I 23 would go to the Naval shipyard right there to make the 24 fix. And the skipper felt that he could make the 25 movement and therefore he would take me with them. HENJUM GOUCHER REPORTING SERVICES, L. P. 1-888-656-3376 JAMES GATE Page 65 1 Q. So sometimes you would go look at a ship in a 2 Naval shipyard and suggest a change to be made right 3 then and there and get approval up the line right then 4 and there? 5 A. Always had to be approval up the line both 6 with the ship side and my side. Even on my side, my 7 boss was not going to let me make changes without him 8 knowing about it. 9 Q. But before you flew back to Philadelphia, you 10 would know that that change could be made? 11 A. Not always, but yes. 12 Q. Sometimes? 13 A. Sometimes, yes. 14 Q. And so that could be a fairly quick process? 15 A. Sometimes. 16 Q. And is that because your superiors and the 17 Navy proposed a good deal of confidence in you? 18 A. Well, let's say any engineer. 19 Q. Sure. 20 A. It's not just me. It's any engineer that was 21 sent out there. 22 Q. Okay. But if you went and looked at a ship 23 and you thought a certain change could be made, if you 24 could get approval for it on the spot, in other words? 25 You had to get approval for it, but you could get it HENJUM GOUCHER REPORTING SERVICES, L. P. 1-888-656-3376 JAMES GATE 1 fairly quickly? Page 66 2 A. I wouldn't say that quickly. I mean, that's 3 rare. That is rare. 4 Q. But sometimes before returning to your home 5 plant? 6 A. Not too often naturally, because on the 7 contrary, I would have the ship laid up, the equipment 8 removed and sent back to the plant. 9 Q. Um-hum. Can you give me examples of changes 10 that the Navy rejected? 11 A. Yeah. It happened on turbine generator sets 12 and they were wiping out the bearings and I felt that we 13 could do it by just modifying the oil, the method on 14 which the oil was coming into the bearing. The Navy 15 wasn't too happy about that because the ship had been 16 operating this way and we weren't sure that what I was 17 suggesting would actually work. 18 So they said no, and the bearings kept on 19 failing and I was sent back two or three times to that 20 ship until finally working with another engineer we 21 managed to produce a part that could become a part of 22 the bearing control for the oil to it and then by making 23 this part and the part itself -- and it had to be 24 tested, so that whole process probably took a year at 25 least and finally went out to the ship, but yes, it gets HENJUM GOUCHER REPORTING SERVICES, L. P. 1-888-656-3376 JAMES GATE 1 turned down. Page 67 2 Q. So in that event, actually you're -- you 3 eventually did come up with a solution, which was 4 adopted by the Navy? 5 A. Yes. Eventually. 6 Q. Can you think of another example during your 7 career where you wanted to do something that you felt 8 was a good idea from the standpoint of the ship and the 9 Navy said no, we're not going to do that? 10 A. No, I'm running out of ideas. 11 Q. Well, I mean - 12 A. I'm running out of ideas. 13 Q. Well, I mean you worked there for 40 years. 14 I'm looking for instances in which the Navy wouldn't let 15 you do something you wanted to do. 16 A. That happens -- every contract that can 17 happen. 18 Q. But can you give me any other examples of it 19 actually happening other than this one time? 20 A. I know we had a problem. Okay. We had a 21 problem with the exhaust sounder collapsing on us. I 22 felt that we could modify it by having the thermal 23 expansion feet move in the same direction so that we 24 wouldn't have the problem. I suppose the Navy tech 25 looked at it and just said no, it's too hard to do it HENJUM GOUCHER REPORTING SERVICES, L. P. 1-888-656-3376 JAMES GATE 1 that way. So they went ahead and worked with their Page 68 2 engineers and just said that it's easier if we just 3 worked the rotor itself and just repositioned the rotor 4 so that we wouldn't have the seals rubbing from the 5 collapse of the cylinder. 6 Q. Okay. And this was a -- sort of an 7 engineering disagreement, if you will? 8 A. Yes. Definitely. 9 Q. Just can you give me what ships that was in 10 regard to or when this happened? 11 A. Well, they were the LPH's. They were called 12 LPH's and this happened like 15 to 20 years ago. 13 Q. What does LPH stand for? 14 A. Landing platform helicopter. 15 Q. Now, is it fair to say that over the 40 years 16 or 41 years, I should say, that you worked at 17 Westinghouse your job description or your job title 18 might have changed, but basically you were a - - did you 19 continue to do the kind of work you've described, i .e. 20 troubleshooting and design improvements, that kind of 21 thing? 22 A. Yes, but less of it because within the last 20 23 years I was in management and I had to oversee the -- a 24 department consisting of engineers. 25 Q. And so your work became more running a HENJUM GOUCHER REPORTING SERVICES, L. P. 1-888-656-3376 JAMES GATE 1 department and less out in the field work on ships? 2 A. That is correct. Page 69 3 Q. All of the time that youspent in 4 Philadelphia, were you a field engineer? 5 A. Yes, I was design and field engineer. That is 6 correct. 7 Q. And in your -- as your career moved more into 8 management, you were overseeing people who were doing 9 the same kind of work that you used to do? 10 A. That is correct. 11 Q. Can you give me any examplesof any of the 12 people you oversaw who suggested a change to the Navy 13 and the Navy said no, we're not going to do that? 14 A. No, that's hard. No. I can't remember the 15 problems that were given out to the engineers to solve. 16 I don't remember any of that. 17 Q. Okay. I want to ask a few extremely basic 18 questions that I apologize for because I don't know the 19 first thing about turbine generators or anything like 20 that. 21 Can you just describe what the function of a 22 turbine is for a person who knows nothing about it? 23 A. Okay. The turbine is a mechanical device just 24 like a fan, but the wind is blowing that day and you see 25 the wind hit the fan blades. The turbine works the same HENJUM GOUCHER REPORTING SERVICES, L. P. 1-888-656-3376 JAMES GATE Page 70 1 way. Instead of having the wind, you have steam and a 2 turbine has blades, so therefore, the steam will hit the 3 blades and will make it rotate. We take the rotation of 4 the shaft and we can put it to a gear box just like a 5 watch and we can make the propellers move. 6 Q. So the steam turns the blades in the turbine 7 which forces the propeller to move and propel the ship 8 through the water? 9 A. That is correct. 10 Q. And is the generator the unit that generates 11 the steam? 12 A. No. The generator on the turbine generator 13 set is one in which instead of having a propeller, you 14 now have a generator. All right. And a generator makes 15 electricity and that electricity is used aboard ship to 16 give you household lights and things like that with 17 electricity. 18 Q. Okay. All right. I take itthat turbines 19 have to have insulation because they generate immense 20 amounts of heat; is that right? 21 A. That is correct. 22 Q. Theydon't need the insulationfor their own 23 operation, but they need the insulation to enable people 24 to work near them; is that right? 25 A. That is correct. HENJUM GOUCHER REPORTING SERVICES, L. P. 1-888-656-3376 JAMES GATE 1 Q. Or work with them? Page 71 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. Service them, that kind of thing? 4 A. Yes, while they are in operation. While the 5 turbine is in operation. 6 Q. Because when the turbine is not in operation, 7 it's not generating any heat? 8 A. That is correct. 9 Q. So for a turbine to work on a ship or to be 10 useful on a ship, it has to be covered with this 11 insulation; is that right? 12 A. So it will not hurt personnel. 13 Q. Right. And insulation is required on the 14 inside and the outside; is that correct? 15 A. No. Just on the outside. 16 Q. Okay. Is there insulation sometimes on the 17 inside of a turbine? 18 A. No. Just the steam. 19 Q. I'm sorry, I don't understand. 20 A. Just the steam. The steam is coming from the 21 boiler, goes through piping, goes into the turbine and 22 you don't want to have insulation on the inside. 23 Q. Okay. What type of insulation typically is on 24 the outside of a turbine? 25 MR. HARVARD: Object to the form. It's HENJUM GOUCHER REPORTING SERVICES, L. P. 1-888-656-3376 JAMES GATE Page 72 1 overbroad . If you'd just generally refer him to a time 2 frame. ' 40s, '50s, '90s. 3 MR. SIEGEL: Q. '50s. 4 A. The thermal insulation in the '50s were, let's 5 say, specified by the Navy to be asbestos on the outer 6 surfaces of the turbine. 7 Q. Um-hum. But it could be cloth, it could be 8 block, it could be something else, or did it have to be 9 a particular type of insulation? 10 A. It had to be a particular type. The chapter 11 on thermal insulation, that's 39, that's pretty exacting 12 as to what type of material to be used as far as 13 asbestos for a turbine. 14 Q. And do you remember what type was specified? 15 A. Asbestos. 16 Q. But cement or block or asbestos blankets or 17 what? 18 A. All of the above. 19 Q. All of those things at different places or for 20 different functions? 21 A. That's right. It's explained right in page 22 39. 23 Q. Okay. Were these specifications developed not 24 for each individual ship, but for classes of ships or 25 for classes of turbines? HENJUM GOUCHER REPORTING SERVICES, L. P. 1-888-656-3376 JAMES GATE Page 73 1 A. It's in the general specifications for ships. 2 They were developed for all ships for the Navy. 3 Q. But the Navy -- what I'm asking is -- and I'm 4 probably not asking it in a sensible way. Did the Navy 5 have particular type of thermal insulation 6 specifications for particular types of turbines or was 7 there just one Bible of thermal insulation that you at 8 Westinghouse would work with? 9 A. There was only one Bible. 10 Q. And you looked at those specifications and you 11 figured out what kind of turbine you were making for a 12 particular ship and thus how to apply the specifications? 13 A. During my lifetime there, starting in 1953, we 14 very seldom had to look at page 39 because the main 15 propulsion spec 17600 and the turbine generator spec 16 17523 did already spell out that the thermal insulation 17 shall be installed and applied by the shipbuilder. 18 Q. So you didn't particularly concern yourself 19 with the insulation because you weren't applying it; is 20 that right? 21 A. That is correct. By specification. 22 Q. Did Westinghouse ever apply the thermal 23 insulation to a turbine before it left the Lester 24 facility? 25 A. No. HENJUM GOUCHER REPORTING SERVICES, L. P. 1-888-656-3376 JAMES GATE 1 Q. Never? Page 74 2 A. Westinghouse Marine Division, let's put it 3 this way -- because Westinghouse is big. Westinghouse 4 Marine Division did not ship any Naval turbines with 5 thermal insulation. 6 Q. Did other units at Westinghouse do so? 7 A. I don't know. 8 Q. But in the facility thatyou worked in, the 9 Westinghouse Marine Division, you never affixed the 10 thermal insulation to a turbine that you manufactured? 11 A. I mentioned earlier that during tests you 12 needed thermal insulation on the unit for safety of 13 personnel. Okay. We would have a subcontractor put the 14 thermal insulation on and remove it. After tests we 15 would take the whole unit apart, inspect the internals, 16 the rotors, the casings and have a Navy inspector 17 witness it. We would put it back together again. We 18 would put it backon the test stand, spin it just to 19 make sure all the parts got back together and didn't 20 rub. Then we would bring it off the test stand. We 21 would clean off the cylinders. And then we would put 22 two coats of aluminum paint on the cylinder and then we 23 would ship it. And the two coats of aluminum paint 24 never dried. 25 Q. And the subcontractor that you hired for such HENJUM GOUCHER REPORTING SERVICES, L. P. 1-888-656-3376 JAMES GATE 1 events put on the insulation and took it off? Page 75 2 A. Um-hum. Yes. 3 Q. Do you remember who that subcontractor was? 4 A. No. 5 Q. No idea? 6 A. No idea. 7 Q. Does Philadelphia Asbestos Company ring any 8 bell to you? 9 A. No. 10 Q. You just wouldn't remember that name? 11 A. No. The manager of manufacturing would handle 12 that because that's a shop function. 13 Q. Now, when the turbine left your facility, you 14 knew that in operation it would need thermal insulation 15 on there permanently, right? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. You knew that that was going to be put on by 18 the shipbuilder? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. The shipbuilder could either be the Navy or a 21 private owner and operator of a shipyard? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. And that would just depend on where the 24 particular battleship was being constructed? 25 A. Yes. HENJUM GOUCHER REPORTING SERVICES, L. P. 1-888-656-3376 JAMES GATE Page 76 1 Q. Okay. All right. Do you all want to -- I'd 2 like to take just a short break to get some documents 3 together here. 4 (Lunch recess taken at 5 12:30 p.m. to 1:35 p.m.) 6 (Mr. Zwillenberg no longer 7 present via telephone.) 8 MR. SIEGEL: Q. Pursuant to a notice and an 9 informal request the plaintiffs asked Westinghouse to 10 produce documents or asked Westinghouse to ask you to 11 produce the documents that you relied on in formulating 12 your affidavits; is that right? 13 A. That is correct. 14 Q. And you produceda stack,which has been 15 transmitted to us. 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. And I'm going togo through some of those 18 documents, just relatively few of them, but I need to go 19 through some of themwith you in no particular order. I 20 have one thatwe're going to ask you -- we'll mark this 21 as number one and ask you to identify it. 22 MR. HARVARD: Can I make a request that 23 because when I did the production earlier we identified 24 it by one and then A-1 and then B-1, that you identify 25 this as Plaintiffs' 1 perhaps. HENJUM GOUCHER REPORTING SERVICES, L. P. 1-888-656-3376 JAMES GATE Page 77 1 MR. SIEGEL: Sure. Plaintiffs' Exhibit 1. 2 MR. HARVARD: Just so there's no confusion on 3 the record. 4 (Marked Plaintiffs' Exhibit 1.) 5 THE WITNESS: You want me to identify it? 6 MR. SIEGEL: Q. Yes, just say for the record 7 what Plaintiffs' Exhibit 1 is. 8 A. Plaintiffs' Exhibit 1 is plan No. 56-J-651 and 9 it says, "Master Plan 500 kilowatt turbine driven AC 10 generator, coils, insulation, bearings and 11 specifications." 12 Q. Now, can you tell somewhere on that 13 Plaintiffs' Exhibit 1 what ship this is in reference to? 14 A. Up in the revision column in the upper 15 right-hand corner it says U.S. Navy. It looks like 16 passed DD 927 class dated 23 February 1951. 17 Q. All right. 18 Are you looking for further information that 19 would identify the ship? 20 A. I thought that was good enough. 21 Q. Well, can we -- it has to be a ship regarding 22 one of these three plaintiffs; is that correct? 23 A. Well, one of those three, yes. 24 Q. Okay. I'm asking you, can you tell from that 25 drawing which ship it's in reference to? HENJUM GOUCHER REPORTING SERVICES, L. P. 1-888-656-3376 JAMES GATE Page 78 1 A. Oh, yes. The DD927 was the DLG either three 2 or four in which the turbine generator sets were removed 3 from that vessel, sent and had refurbished, and then 4 sent aboard the Towers. So these are the -- this is the 5 plan for the turbine generator set aboard the Towers. 6 Q. I'll tell you what. Let's go off the record 7 one second. 8 (Discussion held off the record.) 9 MR. SIEGEL: Q. Back on the record. Would 10 you describe -- you've identified for the record what 11 Plaintiffs' Exhibit 1 is. Would you describe what 12 exactly it is a drawing of? 13 A. It is a drawing of coils, insulation, bearings 14 and specifications for the 500 kilowatt turbine driven 15 AC generator. 16 Q. This is a generator that would be put on the 17 U.S.S. Towers? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. And for the record, the U.S.S.Towers is a 20 ship that one of the plaintiffs, in this case Carter, 21 identified as having -- as having been a ship that he 22 worked on; is that correct? 23 A. I don't know about the plaintiff, but it is 24 the Towers. 25 Q. It is a ship that -- HENJUM GOUCHER REPORTING SERVICES, L. P. 1-888-656-3376 JAMES GATE Page 79 1 A. Right. 2 Q. -- that the people that you worked with or 3 for told you you needed to investigate? 4 A. That is correct. 5 Q. That is because somebody, whether the 6 plaintiff or a coworker or a widow, had said this is a 7 ship that Mr. Carter worked on and is claiming to have 8 been exposed to a Westinghouse turbine? 9 A. I don't know all those facts, but I did 10 research the Towers and this is the AC generator 11 involved with the Towers. 12 Q. All right. And this is a drawing produced by 13 someone at Westinghouse to -- as to how the turbine 14 would be constructed or the generator would be 15 constructed? 16 A. Yes. This drawing was made at our -- at the 17 East Pittsburgh Works and it shows the bearings and the 18 insulation for the generator. 19 Q. Okay. I take it that at some point before 20 this drawing was created Westinghouse was awarded a bid 21 or a contract to construct this generator for the Navy? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. And then someone at East Pittsburgh set about 24 drawing it prior to its construction? 25 A. Yes. HENJUM GOUCHER REPORTING SERVICES, L. P. 1-888-656-3376 JAMES GATE 1 Q. Go ahead, take your time. Page 80 2 MR. HARVARD: No, I'm sorry. 3 MR. SIEGEL: Q. Now, I wanted you to look in 4 the bottom left-hand corner of what is marked as 5 exceptions to specifications. 6 A. Yes, I read it. 7 Q. Why are -- why is there a heading for items 8 called exceptions to specifications? 9 A. I don't know. 10 Q. Why would the person that drew this have put 11 those on there? 12 A. I don't know. 13 Q. What are they doing there? 14 A. I don't know. 15 Q. Would these be departures from Navy 16 specifications? 17 A. I don't know. 18 Q. So you have no idea what is meant on 19 Plaintiffs ' Exhibit 1 by exception to specifications? 20 A. That is correct. 21 Q. Was this drawing -- would the initial drawing 22 of the generator such as the one that ended up on the 23 Towers be drawn according to pre-existing Naval 24 specifics? 25 A. I don't know. HENJUM GOUCHER REPORTING SERVICES, L. P. 1-888-656-3376 JAMES GATE Page 81 1 MR. HARVARD: I'm sorry, can I hear that 2 question again? 3 (Record read.) 4 MR. HARVARD: Go ahead and answer it. 5 THE WITNESS: I don't know. 6 MR. SIEGEL: Q. So they could have drawn it 7 according to no specifications at all? 8 A. I don't know. 9 Q. Would they be able to construct it according 10 to no specifications at all? 11 A. I know nothing about this drawing. 12 Q. Well, you identified it as a drawing that you 13 relied on in formulating your affidavit. 14 A. No, I didn't. 15 Q. Well, it was produced to the plaintiffs as 16 such a document. 17 A. It was produced to the plaintiffs as part of a 18 manual. This drawing is in a manual underneath AC 19 generators. 20 Q. Is that a drawing that you looked at prior to 21 drafting your affidavit? 22 A. No. 23 Q. Is that a drawing that you've ever seen before? 24 A. No. 25 Q. Is that a drawing that you found as part of HENJUM GOUCHER REPORTING SERVICES, L. P. 1-888-656-3376 JAMES GATE Page 82 1 your search of records relating to the U.S.S. Towers? 2 A. It is a drawing that is part of the tech 3 manual that was given to the plaintiffs' lawyers and 4 it's just a drawing. 5 Q. And you've never seen that drawing before? 6 A. Probably not. I don't know. 7 Q. Why is it relevant to the conclusions in your 8 affidavit? 9 A. It's not relevant. I don't know. 10 Q. Okay. That's fair enough. All right. 11 Explain to me exactly what a technical manual is. 12 A. A technical manual is a manual that is an aid 13 to those installing the equipment aboard ship. It is an 14 aid to the operators aboard ship. 15 Q. Who drafts technical manuals? 16 A. The technical manual writer. 17 Q. And that is for a piece of equipment 18 manufactured by Westinghouse, the technical manual would 19 be drafted by a Westinghouse employee? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. Not by a Navy person? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. Yes, a Westinghouse person? 24 A. Yes, a Westinghouse person. 25 Q. Is this type of drawing something that is HENJUM GOUCHER REPORTING SERVICES, L. P. 1-888-656-3376 JAMES GATE 1 included as part of a technical manual? Page 83 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. Are technical manuals drafted for particular 4 ships or particular pieces of equipment or what? 5 A. Technical manuals are drafted for pieces of 6 equipment and they are drafted for ships. 7 Q. Explain to me again as someone entirely 8 ignorant of this process. Is there one technical manual 9 for a generator and another technical manual for a pump 10 and a third technical manual for something else, or is 11 there one technical manual for every piece of 12 Westinghouse equipment on board a particular ship? How 13 does it work? 14 A. The instructions for how to set up the 15 technical manual is in the specifications. It is in the 16 contract as to whether it should include one or more 17 pieces of equipment. 18 Q. Okay. Can you tell what technical -- what 19 kind of technical manual that drawing came from? 20 A. This technical manual, which included this 21 drawing, was from a turbine generator set. 22 Q. And that would be a technical manual designed 23 to aid someone aboard ship in operating that turbine 24 generator ship? 25 A. Yes. HENJUM GOUCHER REPORTING SERVICES, L. P. 1-888-656-3376 JAMES GATE Page 84 1 Q. And it would have been drafted by someone at 2 Westinghouse and sent along with the turbine to whatever 3 ship it ended up on? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. And you have no knowledge of why there appears 6 a category entitled exception to specifications? 7 A. That's right. 8 Q. Is it likely that that would be a departure 9 from the specifications that someone at Westinghouse 10 felt needed to be enacted? 11 A. I don't know. 12 Q. Well, would an exception to specification 13 emanate from Westinghouse for the Navy? 14 A. I don't know. 15 Q. Did you ever receive something -- did you ever 16 receive in your career at Westinghouse from the Navy 17 exceptions to pre-existing Navy specifications? 18 A. No. I did not. 19 Q. The Navy made the specifications and if there 20 was a reason to depart from them that occurred to the 21 person building the thing specified, that would be an 22 exception to specifications, right? 23 A. Could you say that again? 24 Q. She can read it back. 25 (Record read.) HENJUM GOUCHER REPORTING SERVICES, L. P. 1-888-656-3376 JAMES GATE 1 THE WITNESS: No, I disagree. Page 85 2 MR. SIEGEL: Q. Tell me why. 3 A. Because we don't know what the Navy had in 4 mind. There are many ways that they can take 5 exceptions . We don't know. They could have done 6 anything, but we just don't know. There are chains of 7 communications in which specifications can be changed. 8 Q. But by Westinghouse? 9 A. Also by the Navy. 10 Q. Okay. And you have no way of knowing from 11 that drawing who originated those exceptions to 12 specifications? 13 A. That is correct. 14 Q. It could be Westinghouse? 15 A. It could be and it also could be the Navy. 16 Q. Right. Okay. Let me look at that again. All 17 right. Let me ask you to look at the insulation -- 18 where this drawing covers insulation to be used. 19 A. What part of the drawing are you talking 20 about? 21 Q. I'm asking you, the title of the drawing 22 refers to insulation. 23 MR. HARVARD: He's asking you can you find 24 someplace on this drawing where it refers to insulation? 25 I think. HENJUM GOUCHER REPORTING SERVICES, L. P. 1-888-656-3376 JAMES GATE 1 MR. SIEGEL: Q. Yes. Page 86 2 A. Well, there's one item here that says, "Method 3 of insulating bearing temperature, alarm contact maker 4 bulb from bearing." There's another here that says, 5 "For stator coil insulation detail see figures 1 to 6." 6 Q. Let me ask you this: Is there anything on 7 that drawing that refers to thermal insulation being 8 applied to the turbine or to the generator? 9 A. No, I see nothing on this drawing that 10 pertains to thermal insulation that is applicable to the 11 turbine. 12 Q. And there's certainly nothing on that drawing 13 that has anything to do with warning about the hazards 14 of thermal insulation? 15 A. Not that I can see. 16 Q. And, in fact, you've already testified you 17 don't even recognize that drawing as a drawing that 18 you've ever seen before; is that right? 19 A. That is correct. 20 Q. Would the same be true of similar drawings 21 that were produced in regard to the U.S.S. Wren and the 22 Beale as well? 23 A. Object to the form. Overly broad. 24 Q. Do you expect that you'd recognize the 25 equivalent drawings for the Wren or the Beale? HENJUM GOUCHER REPORTING SERVICES, L. P. 1-888-656-3376 JAMES GATE Page 87 1 A. For the AC generator, if they were made this 2 way, yes. 3 Q. You would? 4 A. That they look like this for the AC generator, 5 yes, they would look the same. 6 Q. They are not drawings that you yourself may 7 have even looked at before today, right? 8 A. I don't look at AC generator drawings. 9 Q. Okay. All right. I want to mark as -- -10 we'll call this Plaintiffs' Exhibit 2 and ask you to 11 identify it. 12 A. Okay, this says certification dated. 13 (Marked Plaintiffs' Exhibit 2.) 14 MR. HARVARD: Hang on a second. He's just 15 asked you to look at it. He hasn't asked you any 16 questions yet. 17 MR. SIEGEL: Q. No, I do want you to 18 identify what that document is for the record. 19 A. Okay, this document is the certification data 20 for v oltage regulators. And it's for the DD927. 21 Q. And that's the Towers again? 22 A. Yes, that would be for the turbine generator 23 sets for the Towers. 24 Q. And again briefly describe what that piece of 25 paper sets forth. HENJUM GOUCHER REPORTING SERVICES, L. P. 1-888-656-3376 JAMES GATE Page 88 1 A. It sets forth the certification data for the 2 voltage regulators. 3 Q. And again, this is a document that was 4 produced to us as being identified as a document that 5 was relied upon in drafting this affidavit. 6 Have you ever seen that document before today? 7 A. No. 8 Q. Okay. Is this a document that you found and 9 shipped to the lawyers? 10 A. No. This document was part of the technical 11 manual for the turbine generator sets that was sent to 12 you. 13 Q. Okay. Are there sets of documents that you 14 never see that are maintained by lawyers for 15 Westinghouse that you know of? 16 MR. HARVARD: You can answer the question if 17 you know the answer. I think Mr. Gate may be a little 18 confused on an earlier question. I can clear it up on 19 direct. 20 MR. SIEGEL: Go ahead. 21 MR. HARVARD: Did this come out of one of the 22 documents that you located at Sunnyvale and forwarded to 23 us to provide to counsel for plaintiffs? 24 THE WITNESS: Yes, it is part of the technical 25 manuals of the turbine generator sets. HENJUM GOUCHER REPORTING SERVICES, L. P. 1-888-656-3376 JAMES GATE Page 89 1 MR. HARVARD: So this wasn't a separate 2 document that you pulled out, but this was one page in 3 the thick technical manual that you located? 4 THE WITNESS: That is correct. 5 MR. SIEGEL: Q. So in other words, when you 6 are given the name of a ship, one of the things that you 7 go find is the technical manual for Westinghouse 8 equipment aboard that ship? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. Okay. And you have looked at the technical 11 manuals, but not every drawing in the technical manuals; 12 is that right? 13 A. That is correct. 14 Q. And this would be an example of a particular 15 drawing inside the technical manual relating to 16 equipment on the Towers that you didn't pay attention 17 to? 18 A. That is correct. 19 Q. Okay. Now, again, I have to ask you about the 20 phrase "exceptions to specifications." Is it your 21 testimony that you just have no idea who originated 22 those exceptions? 23 A. That is correct. 24 Q. It's not likely in your mind that it's 25 Westinghouse as opposed to the Navy? HENJUM GOUCHER REPORTING SERVICES, L. P. 1-888-656-3376 JAMES GATE 1 A. I have no idea. Page 90 2 Q. How often would the Navy send out exceptions 3 to its own specifications? 4 A. I have no idea. 5 Q. Was that a typical or an atypical thing? 6 A. I don't know. 7 Q. Okay. 8 (Marked Plaintiffs' Exhibit 3.) 9 MR. SIEGEL: Q. We're going to call this 10 number 3. And would you identify it, please? 11 A. The document handed to me was the military 12 specifications for turbine steam, auxiliary and 13 reduction gear mechanical drawings, MIL-T-17523D like in 14 Delta dated 7 June 1976. 15 (Record read.) 16 MR. SIEGEL: Q. Now, is this a document that 17 you located as part of drafting your affidavits? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. And what is that -- why did you search for 20 that document? That's not relevant to a particular 21 ship , is it? 22 A. Not in the three that we're discussing today. 23 Q. Okay. Is this a document that you have 24 produced in regard to other ships or all ships or why 25 was it relevant to this exercise? HENJUM GOUCHER REPORTING SERVICES, L. P. 1-888-656-3376 JAMES GATE Page 91 1 A. I produced this document because on page 30, 2 paragraph 3.4.34, the paragraph is entitled, "Thermal 3 Insulation and Lagging." In there it goes through and 4 starts out with, "Shipbuilder will be responsible for 5 furnishing and installing thermal insulation and 6 lagging." 7 The reason why I went to this document is that 8 the earlier documents starting with the no read version 9 back in 1953 and subsequent version discusses that for 10 the thermal insulation and lagging the turbine 11 manufacturer would have to install rails and hooks. 12 These rails and hooks that they discuss in the earlier 13 specifications are steel that are welded to the casing 14 and they are fixtures which the turbine manufacturer 15 must put on so that the shipbuilder can hang on the 16 thermal insulation in covering the turbine. 17 Q. Okay. So the record's clear, in previous 18 versions of this document, which is a 1976 document; is 19 that right? 20 A. This one is, yes. Right. This is 1976. 21 Q. In previous versions of this document it 22 specified that the turbine manufacturer had to put on 23 rails and hooks to facilitate the later placement of 24 insulation? 25 A. Yes. HENJUM GOUCHER REPORTING SERVICES, L. P. 1-888-656-3376 JAMES GATE 1 Q. By the shipbuilder? Page 92 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. Did that change? Did something about that 4 arrangement change in this document? 5 A. It discusses a little more detail. That's the 6 only change. The thoughts are the same. 7 Q. And so at least beginning in 1953 and 8 thereafter and including 1976 and thereafter the turbine 9 manufacturer had to put the further fixtures on that 10 enabled the placement of thermal insulation? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. And just so the record's clear -- 13 A. Right. 14 Q. -- Westinghouse was fully aware that thermal 15 insulation would be placed on these turbines because 16 that was an essential feature to make them usable, 17 right? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. Can I have that document back? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. Now, we have marked -- the plaintiffs' counsel 22 have marked on page 18 in highlight, yellow highlighter, 23 paragraph 3.2.8 entitled, "Substitute Materials, " and 24 I'd like you to look at that paragraph and the next two 25 as well and ask you a couple of questions about it. HENJUM GOUCHER REPORTING SERVICES, L. P. 1-888-656-3376 JAMES GATE Page 93 1 MR. HARVARD: How far down did you want him to 2 read? 3 MR. SIEGEL: Q. Just a couple of paragraphs. 4 A. I got down to the list of materials. I just 5 read that paragraph. Is that good enough? 6 Q. That's fine. Now, this paragraph talks about 7 materials -- well, it's entitled, "Substitute 8 Materials ;" is that correct? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. Is the point of this paragraph that if 11 somebody wants to use a different material, i.e., the 12 company building the turbines, they can if they get it 13 approved by the Navy; is that right? 14 A. That is correct. 15 Q. And that could apply to thermal insulation, 16 right? 17 A. No. 18 Q. Why couldn't it? 19 A. Because for turbines we're not using thermal 20 insulation with respect to these specifications. 21 Q. Okay. But in the instances, does that 22 provision about substitute material, could it never 23 apply to thermal insulation? 24 MR. HARVARD: If you know. 25 THE WITNESS: Not within specifications. HENJUM GOUCHER REPORTING SERVICES, L. P. 1-888-656-3376 JAMES GATE Page 94 1 MR. SIEGEL: Q. What about that 2 specification excludes thermal insulation? 3 A. It excludes the turbine manufacturer from 4 handling thermal insulation. 5 Q. Would it exclude the shipbuilder from 6 substituting the thermal insulation material? 7 A. I don 't know. 8 Q. Well, is there any reason to believe that it 9 would? 10 A. I don 't know. 11 Q. There 's nothing in that document that 12 indicates that, right? 13 A. I don 't know. 14 Q. Okay. Is that document something that applies 15 to the shipbuilder as far as the thermal insulation 16 goes? 17 A. Yes, only in that it states that they will 18 furnish and apply the thermal insulation. 19 Q. Is there a separate set of specifications 20 directed to the shipbuilder who is putting on the 21 insulation? 22 A. I don 't know. 23 Q. Okay. But as far as you, the turbine 24 manufacturer goes, if you wanted to say -- if you wanted 25 to call up the shipbuilder and say, you all better use a HENJUM GOUCHER REPORTING SERVICES, L. P. 1-888-656-3376 JAMES GATE Page 95 1 different type of thermal insulation, we suggest that 2 you try to get permission to do that, you'd be entitled 3 to do that, right? 4 A. No. 5 Q. Why wouldn't you? 6 A. We have no means of communicating with the 7 shipbuilder. 8 Q. Why couldn't you pick up the phone and call 9 the shipbuilder? 10 A. We have formal chains of communications 11 between the person who let us have the contract and we 12 will stick with that. They handle contract changes. 13 Q. What if the shipbuilder is the Navy? 14 A. It doesn't make any difference. There are 15 formal communications with the Navy. 16 Q. And why couldn't you use the formal chain of 17 communications to make that suggestion? 18 A. Because we would not be involved with asbestos 19 or thermal insulation. 20 Q. Well, maybe you wouldn't be involved, but I 21 want to establish whether there's some formal 22 prohibition on anyone at Westinghouse calling up the 23 Navy or a private shipbuilder and expressing an opinion 24 or a concern about asbestos? 25 A. The answer is yes, there is a prohibition. HENJUM GOUCHER REPORTING SERVICES, L. P. 1-888-656-3376 JAMES GATE Page 96 1 Q. What is that formal prohibition? What 2 regulation says you can't make that phone call? 3 A. We have chains of command of means of 4 communicating with the customer. It is through, number 5 one, our own internal organization, through the 6 contracts department and they would go up and contact 7 the Navy. 8 Q. And in precisely that chain of command, why 9 can't you express such a concern? You can express any 10 concern you want as long as it's through the precise 11 chain of command, can't you? 12 A. No. 13 Q. Why? Was freedom of speech not guaranteed to 14 Westinghouse employees? If you had a concern about 15 asbestos and you needed to express it, couldn't you 16 express it through the proper formal chains of commands 17 that you described? 18 A. We do not have any concerns with asbestos 19 because that is not our responsibility and therefore we 20 would not do it. 21 Q. I understand that you weren't working with 22 asbestos and that was not part of your job or what you 23 dealt with every day and I understand your view that 24 that's not Westinghouse's problem. What I'm trying to 25 establish is whether there was something against the law HENJUM GOUCHER REPORTING SERVICES, L. P. 1-888-656-3376 JAMES GATE Page 97 1 about you expressing such a concern if Westinghouse ever 2 had such a concern. 3 A. Again, I state that there are formal lines of 4 communication between the customers and ourselves and we 5 would adhere to that. 6 Q. And within those formal lines of communication 7 you could express whatever concerns you might have? 8 A. Yes, except that we would not handle it with 9 asbestos because thermal insulation is not a requirement 10 of the turbine manufacturer. It lies with the 11 shipbuilder. It lies with the Navy. 12 Q. Whatever concerns Westinghouse ever had, it 13 could have expressed those concerns to the Navy within 14 certain chains of command? 15 MR. HARVARD: Object to the form. 16 THE WITNESS: Westinghouse with its concerns 17 will always go through the formal chain of command. 18 MR. SIEGEL: Q. Okay. Thanks. Now, I 19 realize that you've said that that substitution of 20 materials provision doesn't deal with thermal 21 insulation, but it does indicate that as to matters 22 within the purview of the turbine manufacturer if for 23 some reason you wanted to substitute the material B for 24 material A you could do so provided you fulfilled the 25 requirements of that provision and secured the HENJUM GOUCHER REPORTING SERVICES, L. P. 1-888-656-3376 JAMES GATE 1 appropriate Navy control or rather permission, I'm Page 98 2 sorry. 3 A. We would again follow the chain of command 4 with regard to material substitutions and we would 5 adhere to the steps in getting the proper Navy approval 6 and then give them the test results of whatever we were 7 testing and then they in turn would return an approval 8 or disapproval. 9 Q. And if a concern developed about any aspect of 10 the turbine construction or operation that you wanted to 11 express to the Navy, there were mechanisms and avenues 12 for doing so? 13 A. There were always mechanisms and avenues in 14 the chain of command, yes, from the very day I started. 15 Q. And in fact, according to your affidavit you 16 interfaced continuously with Navy people. 17 A. One had to interface with the Navy people in 18 reviewing drawings, in reviewing tech manuals, in 19 reviewing the design, in reviewing test results. Yes, 20 there was an interface. 21 Q. Okay. I want you to identify for the record 22 what we're going to mark as Plaintiffs' Exhibit 4. I'm 23 sorry, you can look at the front of the document. We'll 24 get to that page later. 25 (Marked Plaintiffs' Exhibit 4.) HENJUM GOUCHER REPORTING SERVICES, L. P. 1-888-656-3376 JAMES GATE 1 A. I looked at it. Page 99 2 Q. Could you state for the record what it is? 3 A. This is the Bureau of Ships manual chapter 39 4 entitled, "Thermal Insulation," and it has a date of 5 1945. 6 Q. And again, try to describe for us the basic 7 function of that document. 8 A. This document of chapter 39 is part of the 9 general specifications of ships of the Navy and it talks 10 to the insulating material that is to be used on, let's 11 say, steam piping apparatus or equipment and it gives 12 the reasons for insulating. 13 Q. Okay. Now, again, this is not a document 14 relevant to one particular ship that we're talking about 15 today. This is an overall Navy specification applicable 16 to many ships, right? 17 A. That is correct. 18 Q. And was that applicable to Westinghouse or to 19 some other company? 20 A. This specification is applicable to everyone, 21 both U.S. Navy and all vendors. 22 Q. Okay. The plaintiffs' counsel for the record 23 have marked pages 39-2 and 39-3 in yellow highlighter 24 which I will just read for the record. At paragraph 25 39-3 we've marked the following sentence. "The HENJUM GOUCHER REPORTING SERVICES, L. P. 1-888-656-3376 JAMES GATE 1 following requirements should be met as nearly as Page 100 2 possible by thermal insulating materials," and then 3 there are several listed. 4 Then we've marked another sentence that says, 5 "Insulating materials are available in the following 6 forms in accordance with Navy department 7 specifications." Again, several are listed. And we 8 have highlighted numbers, if I'm reading it correctly, 9 82P11, 8211, 8212 and 8215. 10 And then on the next page 39-3 in the second 11 line we've marked the word asbestos and then several 12 lines down we've marked a sentence, "Molded asbestos 13 saws and cuts neatly with ordinary tools." 14 Now, Mr. Gate, paragraph 39-3, 39-3 subpart 15 two says, "Insulating materials are available in the 16 following forms in accordance with Navy department 17 specifications," and then it lists a number of different 18 types of thermal insulating materials that can be used; 19 is that right? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. Okay. Now, theones I havemarked and 22 highlighted, 82P11, 8211, 8212 and 8215, to me look like 23 they don't contain asbestos; is that correct? 24 A. I have no idea. 25 Q. Okay. Let me askyou to look at82P11, that's HENJUM GOUCHER REPORTING SERVICES, L. P. 1-888-656-3376 JAMES GATE 1 molded cork. Page 101 2 A. That is correct. 3 Q. 8211 is fibrous glass batt insulation; is that 4 correct? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. And there are two others listed that don't 7 appear to contain asbestos, 8212 and 8215; is that 8 right? At least they don't state asbestos. 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. Isn't it true, then, that a thermal insulation 11 supplier or a shipbuilder had a number of insulating 12 materials to choose from, some of which contained 13 asbestos and some of which didn't; is that right? 14 A. I don't know. 15 MR. HARVARD: Object to the form. 16 MR. SIEGEL: Q. Is that what this provision 17 indicates to you? 18 A. I don't know as to what you had mentioned as 19 82P11, 8211, 8212, each one of those are Navy 20 specifications. I have no idea what they say. 21 Q. But in this document they don't use the word 22 asbestos, right, for those items? 23 MR. HARVARD: I'm going to object to the form 24 because he hasn't looked at the entire document, but 25 certainly on those if you're asking him about with HENJUM GOUCHER REPORTING SERVICES, L. P. 1-888-656-3376 JAMES GATE 1 respect to those items. Page 102 2 MR. SIEGEL: Q. Okay. Do you want to take a 3 minute and look at the following language that goes into 4 more detail about the ones that we've marked here and 5 see if those say anything about asbestos? Do you feel 6 like you need to read those? 7 MR. HARVARD: Are you asking him to read them? 8 If you want him to, we will. They say what they say. 9 MR. SIEGEL: Okay. If they say -- I don't 10 need you to do that. 11 MR. HARVARD: Off the record very brief. 12 (Discussion held off the record.) 13 MR. SIEGEL: Q. I'm satisfied if the record 14 simply reflects that some of these choices contain 15 asbestos and some don't. If you can acknowledge that, 16 we can go on. 17 A. I can acknowledge that. 18 Q. We're going to mark this as Plaintiffs' 19 Exhibit 5 and ask you to identify it. 20 (Marked Plaintiffs' Exhibit 5.) 21 A. This is an instruction book and it says, 22 "Westinghouse Main Lubricating Oil, Fuel Oil Service and 23 Fuel Oil Booster Pumps for U.S. Destroyers," and then 24 list a number of destroyers. The one that's highlighted 25 is DD568, and the year of construction is 1942. HENJUM GOUCHER REPORTING SERVICES, L. P. 1-888-656-3376 JAMES GATE Page 103 1 Q. And I don't know if you remember, but one of 2 your affidavits says that DD568 is the U.S.S. Wren. 3 This would be an instruction book relevant to the Wren 4 and a number of other vessels? 5 A. That would be correct. 6 Q. Okay. Is the DD a class of vessel? 7 A. Yes. It is a description of all destroyers. 8 Q. All right. Now, what is the difference 9 between an instruction book and a technical manual? 10 A. I think they are the same except for the 11 words. 12 Q. Okay. Just a different way of referring to 13 the same kind of manual or the same kind of guide? 14 A. Yes. 15 (Discussion held off the record.) 16 MR. SIEGEL: Q. Contained within this 17 exhibit are a number of drawings again and is it fair to 18 say that you haven't looked at any one of these 19 particular drawings or do you want to look at them first 20 and tell me whether that's the case? 21 A. I should look at it if you're going to ask me 22 a question about it. 23 Q. Okay. Well, these are -24 MR. HARVARD: He may or may not have looked at 25 some of the drawings in there. HENJUM GOUCHER REPORTING SERVICES, L. P. 1-888-656-3376 JAMES GATE Page 104 1 MR. SIEGEL: Q. We've marked again in two or 2 three places where the phrase exception to 3 specifications comes up. I was going to ask you about 4 that, but if you haven't seen those drawings either, 5 then we can skip it. 6 A. Yes, I've looked at those two sketches or 7 drawings. 8 Q. Just now you've looked at them or have you 9 looked at them before? 10 A. Just now. 11 Q. So you haven't seen them before? 12 A. No. 13 Q. And again you wouldn't know where the phrase 14 exception to specifications originates from? 15 A. That is correct. 16 Q. All right. I have some other documents that 17 were produced by Westinghouse in discovery in 18 Mississippi originally. I'm sure you're familiar with 19 them, Bill. 20 MR. HARVARD: I may be, I may not. 21 MR. SIEGEL: You may be, you may not be. Do 22 you want to take a five-minute break and have you look 23 at them and the witness look at them? I want to ask him 24 some questions. 25 MR. HARVARD: Yes, that would be helpful. HENJUM GOUCHER REPORTING SERVICES, L. P. 1-888-656-3376 JAMES GATE Page 105 1 (Discussion held off the record.) 2 MR. SIEGEL: Q. Before our break, we were 3 talking about the chain of command that existed for 4 Westinghouse to voice a concern or a suggestion to the 5 Navy about something, whatever that something might be. 6 And I want to be clear about -- I want the record to be 7 clear about exactly what your testimony is. 8 It is your testimony; am I right, that 9 Westinghouse in your tenure there was never concerned 10 about asbestos? 11 MR. HARVARD: Object to the form, overbroad. 12 He doesn't know what anyone or everyone at Westinghouse 13 knew or didn't know or what concerned them. 14 MR. SIEGEL: Q. To your knowledge, 15 Westinghouse didn't have an ongoing concern about 16 asbestos use? 17 MR. HARVARD: Objection. Form. 18 THE WITNESS: Westinghouse Marine, okay, did 19 not have, let's say, documents or let's say methods in 20 which we would work with asbestos. The only document 21 that we worked with was the one that you have as an 22 exhibit and that is the S39. We worked with S39 and 23 that's the only one. 24 MR. SIEGEL: Q. Now, why would you have 25 worked with S39 if you all weren't applying the thermal HENJUM GOUCHER REPORTING SERVICES, L. P. 1-888-656-3376 JAMES GATE 1 insulation? Page 106 2 A. From time to time as part of the contract the 3 design agent of the shipbuilder would request that we 4 make them a thermal insulation drawing that showed 5 exactly what the temperatures would be on our cylinders. 6 Q. Okay. And in those drawings you worked with 7 reference to S39? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. S39, as you saw, calls for -- gives a choice 10 in the type of thermal insulation that can be used; is 11 that correct? 12 MR. HARVARD: Objection. 13 THE WITNESS: No. S39 in the letters pages 14 describe exactly how thermal insulation shall be applied 15 to a turbine. 16 MR. SIEGEL: Q. And some of those possible 17 thermal insulations contained asbestos and some didn't; 18 isn't that correct? And you can take as long as you 19 need to to look through that, but I need you to answer 20 that question. 21 A. It's my understanding that the descriptions 22 here require that it be asbestos. 23 Q. The descriptions here, what page are you 24 referring to? 25 A. Here is on page 39-29, paragraph 39-31, HENJUM GOUCHER REPORTING SERVICES, L. P. 1-888-656-3376 JAMES GATE 1 entitled, "Application of Thermal Insulation to Page 107 2 Turbines." 3 Q. I'm sorry, page 39-29? 4 A. 39-29 in the upper right-hand corner and then 5 there's a paragraph 39-31 called, "Application of 6 Thermal Insulation to Turbines." 7 Q. Okay. And that speaks of asbestos felt? 8 A. That speaks to -- yes, that speaks of the use 9 of the various types of asbestos that would be applied 10 to the turbine. 11 Q. Well, can you read that entire paragraph and 12 tell me whether every single thing listed in that 13 paragraph is asbestos or not? 14 MR. HARVARD: Just go ahead and read it out 15 loud. 16 THE WITNESS: "All surfaces of propulsion and 17 auxiliary turbines which have a maximum operating 18 temperature of 125 degrees or more should be insulated 19 by one of the methods described in this section. 20 Thickness of insulating material should be as shown in 21 table VII." And then there's a table VII. 22 In that table there is an asbestos felt, 23 mineral wool, asbestos block and 85 percent magnesia and 24 diatomaceous earth block. "Surfaces which can be 25 permanently insulated may be covered with sufficient HENJUM GOUCHER REPORTING SERVICES, L. P. 1-888-656-3376 JAMES GATE Page 108 1 layers of asbestos felt per paragraph 39-3 (13) to make 2 up the required thickness. Joints of adjacent layers 3 should be staggered. Layers of felt may be held to one 4 another with adhesive cements per paragraphs 39.6 and 5 39.5. Felt should be firmly secured with one-half inch, 6 flexible, galvanized, steel cable spaced on nine-inch 7 maximum centers around the outside layer. The cable may 8 be fastened to steel hooks welded to the casing where 9 required. No holes should be drilled in the casing. 10 "One-inch mesh netting of 18-gage, galvanized, 11 steel wire is spread over the felt and secured by 12 18-gage wire to the cables. A half-inch thick coating 13 of insulating cement per paragraph 30-3 tempered with 14 Portland cement or equal (four parts insulating cement 15 to one part Portland cement) is applied over the netting 16 and trowel rubbed to a smooth finish. 17 "After drying 24 hours, an adhesive insulation 18 cement per paragraphs 30-5 (2) or 35-5 (3) is applied to 19 the hard cement finish and allowed to dry for one hour, 20 after which a second coat of the same cement is applied 21 and allowed to dry. Lag the insulation of glass cloth 22 or asbestos cloth of the correct type indicated in 23 paragraphs 39-4 (3). 24 "Galvanized steel rings backed up by 25 galvanized steel washers fastened on both sides of the HENJUM GOUCHER REPORTING SERVICES, L. P. 1-888-656-3376 JAMES GATE Page 109 1 lagging should be attached to the permanent insulation 2 adjacent to removable blankets. These blankets are used 3 to cover the flange joint between the upper and lower 4 casings. They are formed by quilting layers of asbestos 5 felt together with fine nickel wire -- nickel copper 6 alloy or brass wire or asbestos twine per paragraph 7 30-1 (3). The turbine side of the blanket is covered 8 with wire-inserted asbestos cloth and the outer surface 9 is covered with plain asbestos cloth of the type 10 recommended in paragraph 39-4 (3)." 11 MR. HARVARD: You want him to keep reading the 12 whole thing? 13 MR. SIEGEL: Yeah, actually, yeah. If - 14 well, if he could read - 15 MR. HARVARD: Just keep going. 16 MR. SIEGEL: Q. Read the next paragraph and 17 then you can take a breather. 18 A. Sure. "Blankets are secured to the permanent 19 insulation with 18-gage, galvanized iron or copper wire 20 laced through metal hooks or eyes attached to the edges 21 of the blankets and the rings on the permanent 22 insulation. It is preferable that blankets should 23 project well over the insulation of the adjacent 24 surface. Blankets should be shaped to fit accurately 25 and spaces between them and the hot metallic surfaces HENJUM GOUCHER REPORTING SERVICES, L. P. 1-888-656-3376 JAMES GATE Page 110 1 should be completely filled with some type of asbestos." 2 I can't read that. "See figure 14." 3 "(2) Another method is to use the same 4 procedure outlined in paragraph 30-31 (1), but with 5 mineral wool blanket insulation per paragraph 39-3 (15) 6 instead of asbestos felt for both permanent and portable 7 insulation. Removable blankets made with mineral wool 8 should be covered with one-quarter inch of asbestos roll 9 felt per paragraph 39-3 (12) previous to enclosing them 10 with asbestos cloth. 11 "Thermal block insulation per paragraphs 30-3 12 (9) and 39-3 (10) may be used for permanent insulation. 13 Thicknesses should be those shown in table VII. Prior 14 to applying the block, all irregularities of the turbine 15 surface should be filled to form a smooth surface. Use 16 magnesia or preferably high temperature cement for 17 temperatures below 500 degrees Fahrenheit and high 18 temperature insulation cement for higher temperatures. 19 Magnesia plaster or insulation cement should be used to 20 point up joints between the layers of block and all 21 crevices should be filled. 22 "The block covering is held in place by 23 half-inch, flexible, galvanized steel cable spaced on 24 nine-inch maximum centers. The cable may be fastened to 25 steel hooks welded to the casing where required. HENJUM GOUCHER REPORTING SERVICES, L. P. 1-888-656-3376 JAMES GATE Page 111 1 One-inch mesh netting of 18-gage, galvanized steel wire 2 is spread over the outer layer of block and secured by 3 18-gage wire to the steel cables. Finish cement and 4 lagging are applied as described in paragraph 39-31. 5 Removable insulation also is the same as outlined in 6 that paragraph." 7 Q. Okay. If you'll just read the next two 8 sentences, we'll be done. 9 A. "Mineral wool high temperature insulating 10 cement, as described in 39-3 (18), is sometimes used to 11 form the complete permanent insulation. It is applied 12 in layers less than one-inch thick and is reinforced 13 with wire mesh." 14 Q. Okay. So we have just read or you have just 15 read a long paragraph that comes under the heading of 16 application of thermal insulation to turbines? 17 A. That is correct. 18 Q. Thisis what governed Westinghouse on those 19 occasions when the shipbuilder asked you to take care of 20 the insulations? 21 MR. HARVARD: Objection to the form. 22 THE WITNESS: No. The shipbuilder never asked 23 us to do the insulation. The insulation was done by the 24 shipbuilder with respect to asking for a drawing. That 25 is the only time when we produced drawings that related HENJUM GOUCHER REPORTING SERVICES, L. P. 1-888-656-3376 JAMES GATE 1 back to this particular chapter. Page 112 2 MR. SIEGEL: Q. Okay. I asked you when 3 this specification S39 governed Westinghouse and you 4 tell me -- and your answer is that it governs in those 5 situations where you make the original drawings for 6 insulation. 7 A. When requested by the Navy or the design agent 8 to make a drawing to show the application for the design 9 agent to use. 10 Q. And in fact at the end of the paragraph or on 11 the next page that you read, is this the type of drawing 12 that we would be talking about? 13 A. Similar, yes. 14 Q. Okay. And this drawing lists a number of 15 possible types of insulation, right? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. And when Westinghouseis making thisdrawing, 18 it can specify one or the other or several different 19 types, right? 20 MR. HARVARD: Object to the form. 21 THE WITNESS: Yes, except generally the 22 result is what is agreed upon by the approving authority 23 and Westinghouse. 24 MR. SIEGEL: Q. Okay. That's fair enough. 25 But in the original drawing phase this specification HENJUM GOUCHER REPORTING SERVICES, L. P. 1-888-656-3376 JAMES GATE Page 113 1 allows for asbestos felt or mineral felt, it allows for 2 cement that's asbestos or magnesia and so on; is that 3 right? 4 A. Correct. 5 Q. Now, my question when we started after the 6 break was whether Westinghouse was ever concerned about 7 asbestos and I think -- and I want to make sure what 8 your answer is -- that it was on those occasions when 9 these types of drawings were being made pursuant to such 10 a request? 11 A. That is correct. 12 Q. If on such occasions Westinghouse had had any 13 concern of any kind regarding the asbestos thermal 14 insulation referred to in this specification, there was 15 a channel, there was a system for voicing those concerns 16 to the Navy; is that not correct? 17 A. Yes. But we would not use it. 18 Q. Well, it's your testimony that you never did 19 use it; is that right? 20 A. That's right. We never used it. 21 Q. And would that have been under your 22 supervision or would it have been under someone else at 23 the Marine Division who worried more about things like 24 insulation? 25 MR. HARVARD: Would what have been? HENJUM GOUCHER REPORTING SERVICES, L. P. 1-888-656-3376 JAMES GATE Page 114 1 MR. SIEGEL: Q. Decisions about insulation 2 and concerns about insulation. 3 A. It would have been the department head, 4 whoever -- those particular years that the turbines were 5 built. It was his concern. 6 Q. At what department are we talking about? 7 A. The Marine department that built Marine 8 turbines at Westinghouse. 9 Q. Okay. Were you a head of that department at 10 certain times? 11 A. No. 12 Q. Were you one of the engineers working in that 13 department? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. Who was the head of that department when you 16 started at Westinghouse? 17 A. When I started at Westinghouse it was Jack 18 Walbridge. 19 Q. Okay. Where is Jack Walbridge today? 20 A. Jack Walbridge retired five or six years after 21 I got there. 22 Q. After you started? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. At what age did he retire? 25 A. Oh, he retired at the normal retirement age of HENJUM GOUCHER REPORTING SERVICES, L. P. 1-888-656-3376 JAMES GATE 1 65. Page 115 2 Q. Who was department head after him? 3 A. Harold Semar. 4 Q. How do you spell that last name? 5 A. S-E-M-A-R. 6 Q. What can you tell me about his present 7 whereabouts? 8 A. Harold Semar retired at the age of 62 in 1972 9 and he reached his 90th birthday. He just passed away 10 two years ago in a parking lot of all places. Had a 11 heart attack. 12 Q. Okay. Who was department head after him? 13 A. Oh, we had a number of department heads. He's 14 gone back to Pittsburgh. It was a guy who came out and 15 went back to Pittsburgh and then another one who came 16 and passed away. Let me bring you up to date. Let's 17 see, the last one I had was in 1975, '76 Jim McMorren 18 (phonetic) . 19 Q. He was the department head by this time at 20 Sunnyvale, I suppose? 21 A. That's right. He was the department head at 22 Sunnyvale. 23 MR. HARVARD: What department is it you're 24 talking about? 25 THE WITNESS: We're still talking about the HENJUM GOUCHER REPORTING SERVICES, L. P. 1-888-656-3376 JAMES GATE Page 116 1 Marine department. Marine engineering department at 2 Sunnyvale. 3 MR. SIEGEL: Q. And again, your testimony is 4 that no such concerns were ever voiced to the Navy? 5 A. That is correct. 6 Q. Butit's also your testimony that there was a 7 method and a means or a channel of voicing such concerns 8 had someone wanted to voice them? 9 A. No. I never stated that. I'm saying that 10 there was a method through the chain of command of which 11 if you wanted a change you go through that chain of 12 command. 13 Q. Well, if someone at Westinghouse knew that 14 asbestos was really, really hazardous to anybody who 15 came in contact with it, there would have been a means 16 of expressing that to the Navy, wouldn't there have? 17 A. No. First of all, Marine engineers were not 18 aware of concerns about asbestos because the Navy had 19 that responsibility. 20 Q. I'm not interested inwhether the Marine 21 engineers were aware of it. I'm asking you that if 22 somebody, anybody at Westinghouse had known that 23 asbestos was dangerous, they could have voiced that 24 concern to the Navy. 25 A. No. Unless they went through the chain of HENJUM GOUCHER REPORTING SERVICES, L. P. 1-888-656-3376 JAMES GATE 1 command. Page 117 2 Q. But there was a chain of command to voice such 3 a concern to the Navy, was there not? 4 A. Yes, a contractual chain of command, yes. 5 Q. So if Westinghouse had a concern about the 6 hazards of asbestos, there was a chain of command and a 7 means for them to voice that concern to the Navy? 8 MR. HARVARD: Objection, form. 9 MR. SIEGEL: Q. You can answer. 10 A. Yes, as long as they went through the chain of 11 command and an approval was received. 12 Q. Okay. All right. Now, the next document I 13 want to ask you to look at you've had a chance to look 14 at with counsel for Westinghouse and I'm going to 15 represent to you is a set of supplemental interrogatory 16 answers by Westinghouse in certain asbestos cases filed 17 in Mississippi. 18 Do you want to take a look at that again? 19 MR. HARVARD: Can I ask, do you know if this 20 is the complete set of that document or are these 21 excerpts? 22 MR. SIEGEL: I think that is the complete set 23 of supplemental answers. That's not a complete set of 24 those interrogatory answers in that litigation. 25 MR. HARVARD: Right. I'm going to object to HENJUM GOUCHER REPORTING SERVICES, L. P. 1-888-656-3376 JAMES GATE 1 the extent that it's not a complete set of the Page 118 2 interrogatories. I'm not going to stop you from asking 3 any questions about it. 4 Are you marking this as next exhibit in order? 5 MR. SIEGEL: This will be Plaintiffs' 6. 6 (Marked Plaintiffs' Exhibit 6.) 7 (Discussion held off the record.) 8 MR. SIEGEL: The plaintiffs' counsel has 9 highlighted certain language on this exhibit and I'm 10 just going to ask, so the record will reflect that I'm 11 going to ask Mr. Gate to read the highlighted language. 12 MR. HARVARD: Why don't you read out loud. 13 THE WITNESS: Sure. "Upon information and 14 belief, the following is a list of the products sold to 15 the public by Westinghouse which at some point in time 16 may have contained some amount of asbestos, without 17 regard to the type or amount of the asbestos ingredient 18 or the potential or lack of potential for the release of 19 loose, respirable asbestos fibers into the air. 20 Further, only certain variations of these products 21 contain asbestos; many other variations contained no 22 asbestos." 23 MR. HARVARD: Let me ask a quick question. 24 You were just reading that, Mr. Gate. You don't know 25 whether that's correct or not, you have no information HENJUM GOUCHER REPORTING SERVICES, L. P. 1-888-656-3376 JAMES GATE 1 on that, correct? Page 119 2 THE WITNESS: That's right. I don't know 3 anything about that. 4 MR. HARVARD: Correct. That's what it says. 5 Is that correct, that's what it says? 6 THE WITNESS: That's what it says. 7 MR. SIEGEL: Well, without asking him to read 8 it, I'm going to represent for the record that these are 9 verified sworn interrogatory answers signed by the 10 assistant secretary of Westinghouse Corporation. 11 MR. HARVARD: I acknowledge that's what they 12 appear to be. 13 MR. SIEGEL: Q. Could you read the 14 highlighted one that again plaintiffs' counsel has 15 highlighted among the list of items. 16 A. You just want me to read that one or more? 17 Q. Just that one. 18 A. "Steam and gas turbines and ancillary 19 insulation." 20 Q. So steam and gas turbines and ancillary 21 insulation appears on the list produced by Westinghouse 22 of products that at some point contained asbestos; is 23 that right? 24 A. That is correct. 25 Q. So in other words, according to Westinghouse's HENJUM GOUCHER REPORTING SERVICES, L. P. 1-888-656-3376 JAMES GATE Page 120 1 own records they did produce turbines themselves that 2 contained asbestos? 3 A. That is correct. 4 Q. Let me ask you to identify for the record 5 what we're going to mark as Plaintiffs' Exhibit 7. 6 A. Okay. This is process specification. 7 (Marked Plaintiffs' Exhibit 7.) 8 MR. HARVARD: Okay. Hang on a second. He 9 asked you to look at it. He hadn't asked you to say 10 anything. 11 MR. SIEGEL: Q. I'm sorry, go ahead and give 12 the exact title of that document for the record? 13 A. Okay. "Process Specification 600729 Turbine 14 Cylinder Insulation." 15 Q. What is a process specification? 16 A. A process specification is a procedure in 17 which a manufacturing engineer has written and would 18 want the men on the floor to follow. 19 Q. So that's a Westinghouse specification , that's 20 not a Navy specification; is that right? 21 A. Well, it appears to be a Westinghouse 22 specification only that it has the markings of a process 23 specification in the 600 series. 24 Q. What is the 600 series? 25 A. Well, it's just a 600 series. HENJUM GOUCHER REPORTING SERVICES, L. P. 1-888-656-3376 JAMES GATE Page 121 1 Q. But that's an internal categorization 2 developed by Westinghouse for types of their own 3 specifications? 4 A. It's a number that they use for process 5 specifications, let's just put it that way, and then 6 when you see a 600 series specification, it's -- it says 7 to your brain, okay, this is a process in which someone 8 will be doing something. 9 Q. Okay. 10 MR. HARVARD: May I see it? 11 MR. SIEGEL: Okay. I'm sorry. All right. 12 The title of this document is "Process Specification 13 600729," and is that where you derived the recognition 14 that it's from the 600 series? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. What, if anything, do the numbers in the right 17 hand corner mean to you? 18 A. I don't know. 19 Q. Nothing? You don't recognize that type of 20 numbering ? 21 A. No, I don't. 22 Q. How about these numbers in the respective 23 paragraphs? 24 A. 46601AB, no, they don't mean anything to me. 25 Q. Now, you've had a chance to look at this and HENJUM GOUCHER REPORTING SERVICES, L. P. 1-888-656-3376 JAMES GATE Page 122 1 take some more time to look at it, if you want. But 2 that document lists a number of different kinds of 3 thermal insulation, right? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. And itdeals with severalmanufacturers, right? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. And thisisWestinghouse's own process 8 specification developed by its engineers for use by 9 Westinghouse people; is that right? 10 MR. HARVARD: If you know. If you know or are 11 familiar with this? 12 THE WITNESS: This is probably used by someone 13 and I know that the Marine Division did not utilize this 14 information. 15 MR. SIEGEL: Q. What would it have been 16 utilized for? It says , "Turbine Cylinder Insulation," 17 does it not? 18 A. Yes . 19 Q. But that's not something within the Marine 20 Division ? 21 A. The re are turbines built in other departments. 22 Q. Okay. 23 A. All right. All I'm saying is that since we 24 did not get involved with thermal insulation, we would 25 have really no apparent use for this document. HENJUM GOUCHER REPORTING SERVICES, L. P. 1-888-656-3376 JAMES GATE Page 123 1 Q. Okay. What other types of turbines did 2 Westinghouse manufacture that weren't manufactured in 3 the Marine Division? 4 A. Okay. There were large utility turbines, 5 medium utility turbines and there were small turbines. 6 Q. Okay. 7 MR. HARVARD: Gas turbines? 8 THE WITNESS: Oh, I'm sorry, yeah, gas 9 turbines. 10 (Marked Plaintiffs' Exhibit 8.) 11 MR. SIEGEL: Q. Okay. And it's your 12 testimony that this is just not anything that the Marine 13 Division would have used? 14 A. Not readily; that is correct. 15 Q. This is going to be Plaintiffs' Exhibit 8. 16 A. We're looking at service department steam 17 supervisor's letter No. 50-8 dated June 14th, 1950 and 18 the subject is insulation. 19 Q. Who are the steam supervisors? 20 A. I don't know. They must be in the service 21 department. This is a service department steam 22 supervisor. So they must be supervisors within the 23 service department. 24 Q. Okay. Now, the service department dealt with 25 both Marine and nonMarine repair problems, right? HENJUM GOUCHER REPORTING SERVICES, L. P. 1-888-656-3376 JAMES GATE 1 MR. HARVARD: If you know. Page 124 2 THE WITNESS: They were segregated with 3 respect to their department heads. There was a Marine 4 supervisor for service. And he then drew upon the 5 district offices, I'll say that, for the various 6 shipyards. 7 MR. SIEGEL: Q. Now, someone, it's not 8 plaintiffs' counsel here, but someone has underlined the 9 last location listed there at the beginning, East 10 Pittsburgh Works. 11 A. Yes, that's what it says. "East Pittsburgh 12 Works, Mr. L.C. Moore, assistant to the manager." I 13 can't read. It's something like DE & S. 14 Q. Is East Pittsburgh a nonMarine location or a 15 location which Marine things went on or what? 16 A. East Pittsburgh was a -- they build 17 generators, all right. And they did build generators 18 for the turbine generator sets for the turbine's belt at 19 the South Philadelphia Works. 20 Q. So that would apply to Marine and nonMarine 21 operations, at least it was being addressed to a 22 facility that did both kinds of things? 23 A. That is correct. 24 Q. Do you recognize the man who's named there or 25 the person who's named there? HENJUM GOUCHER REPORTING SERVICES, L. P. 1-888-656-3376 JAMES GATE 1 A. No, Mr. Moore, no. Page 125 2 Q. Let me take a look at it. 3 A. Sure. 4 Q. All right. Could you read just the first and 5 second paragraphs, two or three sentences there? 6 A. "We are trying to obtain some cost data on the 7 application of Block Type Insulation 166, 246 and 286 8 Frame Turbines. 9 "We have the possibility of having more than 10 one condition facing you in the field. In the past 11 we" -- I think it looks like -- no, here it is. "In the 12 past these frames have not had the block-type insulation 13 put on here at South Philadelphia. We are considering 14 doing this now and therefore we are interested in field 15 experience as far as cost is concerned." 16 Q. So that document speaks of insulation being 17 put on the turbines at the Philadelphia location, right? 18 A. Yes. But on block type insulation on 166, 19 246, and 286 framed turbines. 20 Q. Okay. Are those Marine or nonMarine turbines? 21 A. They are nonMarine turbines. 22 Q. All of them are? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. Now, this is written -- can you identify who 25 wrote that down at the bottom? HENJUM GOUCHER REPORTING SERVICES, L. P. 1-888-656-3376 JAMES GATE Page 126 1 A. J.C. Tiefel, assistant to the manager of the 2 steam services department. 3 Q. Do you recognize that name? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. Is J.C. Tiefel still around? 6 A. No. He was in his 50s also. 7 (Discussion held off the record.) 8 (Marked Plaintiffs' Exhibit 9.) 9 THE WITNESS: The letter in front of me is 10 dated 12/27/62 and it's Lester Works G Building and it 's 11 steam service data letter 62-23, and index, field 12 application of turbine insulation. 13 MR. SIEGEL: Q. Can you identify the person 14 that wrote the letter? 15 A. Headquarters steam service T. W. Bonham. 16 Q. Do you recognize that name? 17 A. No. 18 Q. All right. If you'll read the first paragraph 19 in the -- first sentence in the second paragraph. 20 A. There seems -21 MR. HARVARD: First sentence in the second 22 paragraph. 23 THE WITNESS: Oh, sorry. First sentence in 24 the second paragraph, "Process specification 600729 25 covers the application of block and plastic insulation HENJUM GOUCHER REPORTING SERVICES, L. P. 1-888-656-3376 JAMES GATE 1 on unit cylinders above the 286 frame." Page 127 2 MR. SIEGEL: Q. Is 286 again a nonMarine 3 turbine? 4 A. That is correct. 5 Q. All right. Now, I have just a few questions 6 about two other documents. One is an affidavit and one 7 is some deposition testimony. You've had a chance to 8 read them or you can take -- I don't want you to read 9 them for the record. If you want to take five minutes 10 and read this affidavit again, I simply want to ask you 11 if there's any statement in this affidavit with which 12 you disagree. 13 MR. HARVARD: Let me request the witness get 14 an opportunity to read it because during the break when 15 he looked at, all he did was look at those documents and 16 glance over them to see if they were documents with 17 which he was generally familiar and the affidavit you're 18 looking at is a multipaged affidavit with attachments 19 that he had, as he expressed to me, had not to his 20 recollection seen before. 21 (Marked Plaintiffs' Exhibits 10 and 11.) 22 MR. SIEGEL: Yes. And I don't need you - 23 I'm not going to ask any questions about the attachments 24 or anything. This is an affidavit. What we're going to 25 mark as Plaintiffs' Exhibit 10 is an affidavit of a man HENJUM GOUCHER REPORTING SERVICES, L. P. 1-888-656-3376 JAMES GATE Page 128 1 named David Chilcote. I'm going to ask you to read it. 2 It's three and a half pages long and I simply want to 3 see if there's anything you take issue with. What we'll 4 mark as 11 is some trial testimony -- a deposition of a 5 man named John Haas, chairman of the ship's 6 specifications control board of the United States Navy. 7 Same thing. I just want you to read them and see if 8 there's anything that you would say is untrue. 9 MR. HARVARD: Can he mark on those? 10 MR. SIEGEL: Sure. 11 (Recess taken.) 12 MR. SIEGEL: Q. Mr. Gate, you've had an 13 opportunity to read in detail the declaration of Joseph 14 Chilcote, which is attached as Plaintiffs' Exhibit 10. 15 Now, Mr. Chilcote states that he was employed by the 16 Bureau of Ships, Materials Standard Branch. 17 Can you explain for us what that is? 18 A. No. 19 Q. Can you explain what the Bureau of Ships is? 20 A. Yes. It is the Navy's department that is 21 there to design ships and to take care of them for the 22 fleet. 23 Q. Okay. And that is a -- I think you testified 24 earlier that is the department of the Navy that you 25 ultimately dealt with; is that correct? HENJUM GOUCHER REPORTING SERVICES, L. P. 1-888-656-3376 JAMES GATE 1 A. That is correct. Page 129 2 Q. Now, is there anything in the statements of 3 Mr. Chilcote who worked for the Bureau of Ships that you 4 disagree with? 5 A. First of all, Mr. Chilcote may be correct, but 6 I don't have enough information or I don't know enough 7 information to even make a comment with exactly what Mr. 8 Chilcote is trying to accomplish. 9 Q. Okay. You've marked certain statements or 10 certain places in that affidavit. Is there anything you 11 wanted to point out or say with regard to any mark 12 you've made or any statement that you've marked or are 13 those just -- you went along and happened to mark 14 certain segments? 15 A. Right. I just happened to mark certain 16 segments. 17 Q. Okay. Did you mark -- do I see the word no in 18 the margin there? 19 A. That's right. 20 Q. What are you marking no to? 21 A. As far as Marine department is concerned, 22 we're not involved with what Mr. Chilcote is trying to 23 undertake because we were not industry experts in the 24 insulation field. In fact, we are probably one of the 25 worst ones. HENJUM GOUCHER REPORTING SERVICES, L. P. 1-888-656-3376 JAMES GATE Page 130 1 Q. But, in other words, you don't have any reason 2 to believe that what he's saying is untrue, you just 3 don't have any information to know one way or the other? 4 A. That is correct. 5 Q. Now, how about Plaintiffs' Exhibit 11, which 6 is the deposition of John Haas? 7 A. Again, I don't know what John Haas is trying 8 to do and I don't have any information that would make 9 me intelligent to understand what is happening with John 10 Haas. 11 Q. Okay. What is the -- if you know, what is the 12 ship's specification control board? 13 A. I don't know. 14 Q. That's not an office whose name you recognize? 15 A. No. 16 Q. So when Mr. Haas says he is chairman of the 17 ship's specification control board of the United States 18 Navy, that's something you've never heard of? 19 A. That is correct. 20 Q. Now, someone asked Mr. Haas if he knew of any 21 prohibition among Navy regulations or rules, which would 22 prohibit a supplier of thermal insulation products from 23 drafting the specification pertaining to that product. 24 And he said no, he didn't know of any such specification 25 or prohibition. HENJUM GOUCHER REPORTING SERVICES, L. P. 1-888-656-3376 JAMES GATE Page 131 1 Do you know of any such prohibition? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. What would that prohibition be? 4 A. The prohibition would be that anything that we 5 want to make a revision or change to must go through the 6 chain of command. Maybe Mr. Haas didn't have to go 7 through the chain of command because of his stature or 8 because of his office, but we in taking a contract with 9 the U.S. Navy have a built-in set of chain of command 10 rules with respect to making revisions and changes. 11 Q. Right. And those rules are exactly what's set 12 out for Westinghouse, the procedure by which it can 13 suggest changes; isn't that right? 14 A. No. It says that as far as the procedure is 15 concerned we let everyone know what we're attempting to 16 do. You know, making changes takes a lot of time and we 17 try to keep that to a minimum. 18 Q. But if Westinghouse wanted to make a change of 19 some kind, there was a procedure in place, a chain of 20 command to suggest that change to the Navy and to 21 request permission for it? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. Now, the Navy never sent Westinghouse any 24 order concerning asbestos thermal insulation, did it? 25 That's too broad of a question. Did the Navy ever HENJUM GOUCHER REPORTING SERVICES, L. P. 1-888-656-3376 JAMES GATE 1 prohibit Westinghouse from putting a warning on its 2 turbines about asbestos insulation? Page 132 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. What was that prohibition? 5 A. The chain of command. Going through the chain 6 of command and knowing that we have warnings with 7 respect to turbines and we have cautions in our tech 8 manuals with respect to what is dangerous for personnel 9 and equipment. 10 Q. Right. And that chain of command is a back 11 and forth process, isn't it? 12 A. No. It's a one-way street. 13 Q. Right. And that one-way runsfrom 14 Westinghouse to the Navy when Westinghouse wants to make 15 a change about something, isn't it, doesn't it? 16 A. No. It's the other way around. Westinghouse 17 can make recommendations but it must be approved and 18 only through the chain of command. 19 Q. Right. And if Westinghouse had wanted to put 20 a warning on its turbines, it could have done so had it 21 gone through the chain of command and gotten approval? 22 A. Yes. But this is strictly a warning. 23 Q. Had Westinghouse wanted to put a warning of 24 the hazards of asbestos insulation on its turbines to 25 warn people working near or with those turbines about HENJUM GOUCHER REPORTING SERVICES, L. P. 1-888-656-3376 JAMES GATE Page 133 1 the hazards of asbestos, it could have done so had it 2 secured permission from the Navy through the chain of 3 command you have talked about? 4 A. No. Because Westinghouse was not involved 5 with asbestos. Warnings and cautions are reserved for 6 those procedures in which personnel, if not following 7 the procedures has outlined, then they will be placing 8 their lives and the equipment in danger. 9 Q. I know you've told me that Westinghouse wasn't 10 involved with asbestos, but had Westinghouse wanted to 11 do something about asbestos, i.e., put a warning on its 12 turbines, it could have done so provided it secured 13 permission from the Navy? 14 A. The answer is no. 15 Q. Well, what prohibited it from doing so? 16 A. Because the procedure of just asbestos we 17 don't know whether that's an immediate consequence and 18 we don't know whether if not followed, that the person's 19 life is in jeopardy. 20 Q. Well, that all has to do with whether it's a 21 good idea, doesn't it? 22 A. No, sir. It is a procedure in which we adhere 23 to. 24 Q. I want you to tell me what order or regulation 25 or procedure or any piece of paper you ever got from the HENJUM GOUCHER REPORTING SERVICES, L. P. 1-888-656-3376 JAMES GATE 1 Navy forbade Westinghouse from putting a warning on Page 134 2 asbestos turbines? 3 A. Westinghouse would not get involved with 4 asbestos, period. 5 Q. You've said that many times, but I want to 6 know whatever you got from to the Navy that forbade you 7 from putting a warning on had you wanted to? 8 A. It is in working with the Navy that we 9 understand what was required of us to put warning plates 10 on and to put caution plates on. 11 Q. I understand that. And again, if you had 12 wanted to put such a warning or caution on about 13 asbestos, there was a means for securing permission to 14 do so had the Navy granted permission, isn't there? 15 A. No. I'm going to have to say no. I have 16 personally tried in working with the Navy on what we 17 call resistant temperature elements. These are very 18 similar to thermocouples in working with the Navy. I 19 wanted to put a caution plate on there and it was 20 rejected. 21 Q. Got it. 22 A. Okay. All I'm saying is that you just can't 23 assume that you will go put warning plates on things, 24 you really have to have discussion and as far as 25 asbestos is concerned, we are not -- we are not involved HENJUM GOUCHER REPORTING SERVICES, L. P. 1-888-656-3376 JAMES GATE Page 135 1 in the worrying about the environment of the Navy. Navy 2 crews are taken care of by the Navy. The engine room is 3 designed by the Navy. 4 The use of asbestos in the engine room is 5 outlined in the chapter 39, therefore, I'm saying that 6 we are the last person that would make any 7 recommendations with regard to asbestos. 8 Q. Well, you might think that, but I'm asking 9 you, had you made such a recommendation or had you 10 wanted to, there was a procedure for doing so, right? 11 A. Yes, only through the chain of command. 12 Q. Right. And the Navywas freeto accept or 13 reject that recommendation? 14 A. Yes, except, that again, we would not just go 15 in and do it. 16 Q. Right. And you gavean example of asituation 17 in which you recommended a warning about something and 18 the Navy rejected it, right? 19 A. That is correct. 20 Q. But had such a recommendation been made about 21 the health hazards of asbestos, the Navy might have 22 accepted it or might have rejected it, we don't know; is 23 that correct? 24 A. We would never even think in terms of making a 25 suggestion about the health hazards of Navy personnel. HENJUM GOUCHER REPORTING SERVICES, L. P. 1-888-656-3376 JAMES GATE Page 136 1 Q. Do you recall being deposed here at the 2 Morgenstein firm back in February in the case called the 3 Robert Langer matter? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. And thatwas a deposition in which the 6 plaintiffs' lawyer was asking you a question about 7 things; is that right? Do you recall? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. Do youwant to look attheir transcript? 10 MR. HARVARD: Hang on a second. I've got a 11 copy of it. What page are you at? 12 MR. SIEGEL: Q. 69, last question. The 13 plaintiffs' attorney asked you the following question. 14 "Mr. Gate, this is actually a simple question 15 and actually it's my last. There was never anything 16 that Westinghouse received from any of the regulatory 17 bodies or the U.S. Navy or any builder that prohibited 18 Westinghouse from placing a warning concerning asbestos 19 on the Marine turbines; is that not correct?" 20 Mr. Harvard objected and then you said, "Not 21 that I'm aware of." 22 A. I remember that. 23 Q. Now, are you aware of something now that you 24 weren't aware of back in February? 25 A. I am aware of when I read that, that that is HENJUM GOUCHER REPORTING SERVICES, L. P. 1-888-656-3376 JAMES GATE Page 137 1 not what I thought I heard over the phone. We were 2 having problems with the phone from time to time and I 3 did not catch all the words that came over. It was 4 probably -5 Q. Did you have an opportunity to read this 6 deposition? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. Did you get this transcript and have an 9 opportunity to read it and make any changes you wanted 10 to make in it? 11 A. I just read it the other day when you came. 12 MR. HARVARD: This deposition I believe was 13 taken with trial pending and I don't think the witness 14 read and signed it. I could be wrong. 15 MR. SIEGEL: Q. Did you not have the 30-day 16 period to read this deposition and make any changes you 17 wanted to make in it? 18 A. Are you asking me or asking him? 19 Q. I'm asking either one of you. 20 A. I'll tell you this, I did not see this until 21 he brought it to me. 22 Q. When did he bring this to you? 23 A. Was it two days ago? 24 MR. HARVARD: Yeah. It was a week ago. 25 THE WITNESS: A week ago. HENJUM GOUCHER REPORTING SERVICES, L. P. 1-888-656-3376 JAMES GATE Page 138 1 MR. SIEGEL: Q. Okay. I have cited this 2 testimony in several pleadings that I filed in court 3 recently and are you telling me that you're going to 4 file a pleading in court saying this is inaccurate 5 transcription of the testimony? 6 MR. HARVARD: No. 7 MR. SIEGEL: So it s accurate? 8 MR. HARVARD: Yes. That's an accurate 9 reflection of the answer he gave. He just stated a 10 moment ago that when he read back through this, he 11 didn't understand the question that was being asked. 12 MR. SIEGEL: All right. 13 Q. What about the question did you not 14 understand? 15 A. First of all, when I read it I didn't realize 16 that the word asbestos was used in there. I almost fell 17 through the floor, but if that's what the court recorder 18 recorded, then that's what was said, but I didn't hear 19 it over the phone. I just missed it. 20 Q. You missed the word asbestos in that question? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. Did you miss any other words in that question? 23 A. Yes. In the very beginning "received from any 24 of the regulatory bodies," that threw me for a loop 25 because I didn't quite understand what they were HENJUM GOUCHER REPORTING SERVICES, L. P. 1-888-656-3376 JAMES GATE Page 139 1 trying -- what they were trying to say and I probably in 2 all righteousness should have asked that the question be 3 repeated again. 4 Q. Now, did you not hear the word regulatory 5 bodies or did you not understand what was meant by the 6 term regulatory bodies? 7 A. Both. I didn't quite catch it, but I didn't 8 also understand what he was striving at as far as 9 regulatory bodies were concerned. 10 Q. What exactly do you not understand about the 11 phrase regulatory bodies? 12 A. Well, tell me what you think that regulatory 13 bodies mean. 14 Q. Any body that issues regulations. 15 A. Okay. I'm not used to that terminology at 16 all. In other words, what we're saying here is that the 17 U.S. Navy is a regulatory body. 18 Q. No, it's regulatory bodies or the U.S. Navy. 19 A. Well, I'm saying that as an example. I could 20 not understand what the regulatory bodies were. 21 Q. Well, I - 22 A. I could understand the U.S. Navy parts. 23 Q. So you were having trouble now reading it in 24 hindsight understanding the phrase regulatory bodies, 25 but you heard that phrase being asked on the phone? HENJUM GOUCHER REPORTING SERVICES, L. P. 1-888-656-3376 JAMES GATE Page 140 1 A. Yes, that portion of it, but not very clearly 2 because certainly when I missed asbestos, then I really 3 felt bad . 4 Q. All right. You didn't hear the word asbestos? 5 A. No. 6 Q. So what you heard was the sentence, "There was 7 never anything that Westinghouse received from any of 8 the regulatory bodies or the U.S. Navy or any builder 9 that prohibited Westinghouse from placing a warning 10 concerning on the Marine turbines"? 11 A. That's right. 12 Q. You just heard that whole sentence, but not 13 the word asbestos? 14 A. That's right. 15 Q. And this was at the end of a 70 page 16 deposition being taken in an asbestos case? 17 A. Whatever number of pages it is. 18 Q. But you didn't think he was asking you about 19 warnings concerning asbestos? 20 A. No. 21 Q. He was just asking you about any warning at 22 all? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. All right. Then did you ever receive anything 25 from the Navy or any regulatory body about prohibitions HENJUM GOUCHER REPORTING SERVICES, L. P. 1-888-656-3376 JAMES GATE 1 about warnings of any kind, about anything? Page 141 2 A. The answer is no, we never received it, but we 3 do -- but we do have the procedures to follow with 4 respect to putting anything on turbines. 5 Q. All right. So your answer in fact was 6 correct, you never received anything from the Navy that 7 was a prohibition about health warnings, whether 8 asbestos related or otherwise? 9 A. I never -10 Q. So we're in agreement that the Navy never sent 11 you a piece of paper saying, don't you dare tell sailors 12 about asbestos being hazardous, you never got such piece 13 of paper? 14 MR. HARVARD: I'm sorry, did you finish your 15 answer on the last question. 16 THE WITNESS: I don't know. Let's read it. 17 (Record read.) 18 MR. HARVARD: That's the point where you got 19 cut off. I'm not sure you answered the last question. 20 MR. SIEGEL: Q. We can just try to establish 21 that in fact this question and answer are accurate , 22 right, the Navy never sent you a formal document 23 prohibiting warnings concerning asbestos? 24 A. The Navy -- 25 Q. I just need a yes or no answer to that HENJUM GOUCHER REPORTING SERVICES, L. P. 1-888-656-3376 JAMES GATE 1 question, first. Page 142 2 MR. HARVARD: Answer the question. If you can 3 answer it with a yes or no, do it. If not, answer it 4 the way you can answer it. 5 MR. SIEGEL: Because either the answer is you 6 got such a document or you didn't. 7 MR. HARVARD: Answer the question just any way 8 you can. 9 THE WITNESS: We have received letters from 10 the Navy, yes, that says that changes that are to be 11 made are through the formal chain of command. 12 MR. SIEGEL: Q. Okay. But the Navy never 13 sent you letter saying forbidding a change with regard 14 to asbestos health warnings? 15 MR. HARVARD: If you know. 16 THE WITNESS: I don't know. 17 MR. SIEGEL: Q. You can't ever think of 18 receiving such a document? 19 A. I don't know. 20 Q. Okay. And Westinghouse has never produced a 21 document in 25 years of asbestos litigation to your 22 knowledge ? 23 A. Again, I don't know. 24 Q. You don't ever remember receiving such a 25 document and that's why you don't know, right? HENJUM GOUCHER REPORTING SERVICES, L. P. 1-888-656-3376 JAMES GATE 1 A. Exactly. I don't know. Page 143 2 Q. Now, you have stated that there was a 3 procedure for making changes. 4 A. That's correct. 5 Q. And had Westinghouse requested -- had 6 Westinghouse wanted to make a warning concerning 7 asbestos hazards, there was a procedure for making such 8 a warning or requesting such a warning be made. 9 A. Westinghouse would never get involved with 10 thermal insulation. 11 Q. Now, these guys got planes to catch. I don't. 12 I'm willing to sit here for three more hours until you 13 answer that question. 14 A. I just answered it. 15 Q. You have told me 80 times now that 16 Westinghouse wouldn't have requested such a change and 17 I'm asking you Westinghouse could have requested such a 18 change had they wanted to? 19 A. No. 20 Q. Why? 21 A. Because we had procedures to adhere to. 22 Q. Um-hum. And those procedures were precisely 23 how you could have requested such a change? 24 A. No. Not with asbestos. 25 Q. Why not? HENJUM GOUCHER REPORTING SERVICES, L. P. 1-888-656-3376 JAMES GATE Page 144 1 A. Because the Navy took care of asbestos. We 2 did not take care of the asbestos. We're the last 3 person in this whole line to know anything about 4 asbestos because the Navy said the shipyard will take 5 care of asbestos. It's all in this 39. 6 Q. What prohibited you from requesting a change 7 about asbestos? 8 A. We're the last person to offer advice to 9 things that we don't know about. All we can do is 10 recite back chapter S39. 11 Q. What prohibited you from asking about a change 12 regarding asbestos? 13 A. I think I just answered that question. 14 Q. No, you haven't. I want to know if there's 15 any prohibition or if you simply never did it? 16 MR. HARVARD: If you know. 17 THE WITNESS: I don't know. 18 MR. SIEGEL: Q. You don't know of any such 19 prohibition? 20 MR. HARVARD: You asked two questions. I 21 think he was answering - 22 MR. SIEGEL: Q. I understand that you never 23 made such a request and I understand your view that 24 Westinghouse would not have been involved in such a 25 request. But this plain question I'm asking you and the HENJUM GOUCHER REPORTING SERVICES, L. P. 1-888-656-3376 JAMES GATE Page 145 1 question that I need an answer to before we can go on is 2 whether there was a prohibition on Westinghouse making 3 such a request? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. And what was that prohibition? 6 A. The rules that I was following with respect to 7 my boss and with respect to my experience with them from 8 the first day I started with Westinghouse. 9 Q. The rules? 10 A. The rules, right. Experience. 11 Q. What rule prohibited that request? 12 A. The rule meaning that when we're not involved 13 with certain procedures, we don't get into them. 14 Q. What rule is that? 15 A. It's our rule. 16 Q. Whose rule? 17 A. Westinghouse Marine Division. 18 Q. What specification is that? 19 A. It's not in a specification. It is our 20 experience. 21 Q. In other words, then it's your experience that 22 prohibited such a warning from being requested? 23 A. That is correct. 24 Q. And what about your experience, who at 25 Westinghouse told you that? HENJUM GOUCHER REPORTING SERVICES, L. P. 1-888-656-3376 JAMES GATE Page 146 1 A. Start off with Jack Walbridge, my immediate 2 boss. 3 Q. He told you that you could not make a request 4 about a health hazard if one were warranted? 5 A. That is right. 6 MR. HARVARD: Object to the form. 7 MR. SIEGEL: Q. He did? 8 A. As far as asbestos was concerned, we're not 9 involved with because that was his experiences. 10 Q. That was his experience? 11 A. Yes. In other words, the service department, 12 all right, handled the request as far as asbestos is 13 concerned. All right. The Marine engineering 14 department never got involved with it. 15 Q. Okay. Now, you have testified that the Navy 16 never sent you a letter or a directive or a 17 specification precluding this type of warning change 18 from being suggested. You've testified that there was 19 no rule on paper that prohibited that, there was simply 20 your own recollection of your experience. Okay. 21 Now, because it is Westinghouse's contention 22 in court that the Navy forbade this warning, I want to 23 ask you about each of these Navy people and I want to 24 see if they ever told you don't be coming to us with any 25 suggestions about asbestos. Now, the first one -- HENJUM GOUCHER REPORTING SERVICES, L. P. 1-888-656-3376 JAMES GATE Page 147 1 MR. HARVARD: Object to the form, lack of 2 foundation. You can ask him I think properly if he 3 knows or has ever had any communications with these 4 folks, but I object to the form as argumentative as 5 you've currently phrased it and lack of foundation. 6 MR. SIEGEL: Q. Did Captain Rosenstein ever 7 tell you anything orally about any prohibition on 8 Westinghouse making a suggestion with regard to asbestos 9 health warnings? 10 A. I don't remember. 11 Q. You don't remember any such statement from him? 12 A. I don't know. 13 Q. You don't remember any such statement from 14 him, do you? 15 A. I don't know and I don't know. 16 Q. That's because you can't think of any such 17 statement he ever made, right? 18 A. That's right. I don't know. 19 Q. Did he ever give you a written order to that 20 effect? 21 A. I don't know. 22 Q. How about Oscar Earle, did he ever tell you 23 not to make a suggestion regarding asbestos health 24 warnings? 25 A. I don't know. HENJUM GOUCHER REPORTING SERVICES, L. P. 1-888-656-3376 JAMES GATE Page 148 1 Q. Did he ever give you a piece of paper to that 2 effect? 3 A. I don't know. 4 Q. You don't remember that either. How about 5 James Moodie? 6 A. What about James Moodie? 7 Q. Did he ever tell you, Gate, I don't want to 8 hear anything about asbestos health warnings? 9 A. I don't know. 10 Q. You don't remember that. How about him giving 11 you a piece of paper to that effect? 12 A. I don't know. 13 Q. All right. And when you're saying I don't 14 know, you really mean I don't remember, right? 15 A. And I don't know. I don't remember and I 16 don't know. 17 Q. Howard Ball, did he ever tell you anything to 18 that effect? 19 A. I don't know. 20 Q. And you don't remember him giving you any 21 piece of paper to that effect either, right? 22 A. I don't know. 23 Q. Robert Trout? 24 A. I don't know. 25 Q. Is there anyone else in the Navy that would HENJUM GOUCHER REPORTING SERVICES, L. P. 1-888-656-3376 JAMES GATE 1 have told you such a prohibition? Page 149 2 A. I don't know. 3 Q. Because in fact, you don't remember any such 4 prohibition ever being told to you; isn't that correct? 5 A. I don't remember and I don't know. 6 Q. And you also don't remember ever receiving any 7 piece of paper to that effect? 8 A. Again, I don't remember and I don't know. 9 Q. And that goes for the Navy or any other 10 regulatory body? And I want you to take as much time as 11 you need to figure out what I mean by that. 12 A. Well, explain yourself as to what you're 13 trying to tell me. 14 Q. The Navy or any other governmental agency of 15 any kind. 16 A. I don't remember and I don't know. 17 Q. Now, is there anyone else who worked at 18 Westinghouse during your time frame that would in your 19 opinion have any more knowledge about these procedures, 20 this chain of command and so on that you've discussed 21 other than yourself? 22 A. I don't know. 23 Q. You can't think of anybody, no such person 24 comes to mind? 25 A. I don't know. HENJUM GOUCHER REPORTING SERVICES, L. P. 1-888-656-3376 JAMES GATE Page 150 1 Q. Now, I want to ask you again about this 2 testimony and I want to make sure that -- I want to 3 conduct this deposition review process right here, Bill, 4 because I've filed these pleadings in court and if 5 you're going to correct this testimony, I want to make 6 sure about it right now. 7 My understanding is that the testimony as 8 you've reread it right now is not inaccurate. 9 MR. HARVARD: Are you asking him whether this 10 reflects what was asked and what his response was at the 11 time or are you asking him today whether he agrees with 12 that question and answer as he looks at it? 13 MR. SIEGEL: I'm asking if he plans to make 14 any changes and sign them and submit them to the court. 15 MR. HARVARD: I think any time for that in the 16 Langer case, which Westinghouse resolved by way of 17 settlement, I thought had passed, so I think this is a 18 closed issue with respect to that deposition transcript. 19 MR. SIEGEL: Well, it's a closed issue with 20 respect to the Langer case, but it's an exhibit to 21 pleadings in these cases that we're here on today and I 22 want to make sure that he has no plans to make any 23 written changes. 24 MR. HARVARD: You can ask him if he has any 25 such plans. I don't think -- please answer. HENJUM GOUCHER REPORTING SERVICES, L. P. 1-888-656-3376 JAMES GATE Page 151 1 THE WITNESS: No, I don't intend to make any 2 changes. I'll take my lumps. 3 MR. SIEGEL: Q. Well, you don't have to take 4 any lumps. You only have to take lumps if you want to 5 take them. It's not lumps at all if the testimony needs 6 to be changed because the transcript is inaccurate, then 7 we need to change it. 8 A. My understanding in the transcript, see, is 9 such that she probably heard it correctly and I did not 10 because of whatever. But that's what it is, that's what 11 it is. 12 Q. Okay. So you have no plans to change this 13 testimony? 14 A. No. 15 Q. Why don't you all give me five minutes and 16 then we'll either be finished or be close to it. 17 (Recess taken.) 18 MR. SIEGEL: Q. You were speaking earlier 19 about a warning that you did suggest to the Navy and 20 that was rejected. 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. Could you tell me again what that had to do 23 with? 24 A. Well, that was the RTE, which are some of the 25 thermocouples. They give an electrical impulse from the HENJUM GOUCHER REPORTING SERVICES, L. P. 1-888-656-3376 JAMES GATE 1 bearing and it has to do with the bearings aboard a Page 152 2 submarine. When you're in a submarine, when you're 3 maneuvering it in the various climb and dive angles and 4 offsets, your loading changes and depending upon how 5 fast they maneuver the submarine, so what happens is 6 that during these cases, we do know that you can put a 7 lot of load on the bearings and that you can wipe out 8 bearings. And what you do -- be able to do is figure 9 out whether the alarm system that you have hooked up to 10 the RTE system is quick enough so that the -- whoever's 11 maneuvering the vessel, submarine, has adequate time to 12 level it out or do something before the bearing wipes. 13 And so therefore, I had spent like a year on 14 that project and I was surprised when the main 15 propulsion people asked me if they could use my sketches 16 and things like that. That's in one of the 17 specifications that I gave to you on main propulsion 18 where they used the sketches, and in doing so, we 19 discussed whether there should be a caution plate or not 20 placed on the main propulsion turbine when the crew 21 worked on the bearings and I felt it was very important 22 that there would be a caution sign and the Navy said, 23 no -- they didn't really say the funniest thing. I sort 24 of found out in wanting to know more about the project 25 and one of the guys I was working with told me that, HENJUM GOUCHER REPORTING SERVICES, L. P. 1-888-656-3376 JAMES GATE Page 153 1 "No, it got rejected." I said, "Well, that's how it 2 goes." 3 Q. Roughly what time period was this? 4 A. Oh, it was in 1958, '59 period. 5 Q. All right. And during that time period you 6 all were making turbines that you knew would have 7 asbestos insulation on them eventually? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. In fact, inmanyinstances you wererequired 10 to put the rails and hooks on that enabled the 11 insulation to be put on? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. And I realize your testimony that you all 14 didn't concern yourself with the insulation beyond the 15 rails and hooks, if you will, but had you -- had you 16 wanted to say something, make some suggestion along the 17 same lines concerning asbestos, you would have requested 18 it in the same procedure, right? 19 A. No. Idon't think so. We had procedures that 20 we were following and if you're trying to warn sailors 21 about their environment, that had nothing to do with our 22 procedures. We have a procedure and you don't do that. 23 You follow what the procedure says and if it is 24 hazardous to people, then -- or to equipment, then you 25 put a warning and a caution on it. HENJUM GOUCHER REPORTING SERVICES, L. P. 1-888-656-3376 JAMES GATE 1 Q. Um-hum. Page 154 2 A. All right. 3 Q. And if one wants to make such a warning about 4 something that is hazardous to people or equipment, you 5 suggest it to the Navy, right? 6 A. No. Because -7 Q. Well, that's exactly what you did with the 8 submarine -- 9 MR. HARVARD: I'm sorry, could he finish his 10 answer? 11 MR. SIEGEL: Isn't that exactly what you did 12 with the submarine problem or not? 13 MR. HARVARD: I guess not. Were you done with 14 your answer a minute ago, Mr. Gate? 15 MR. SIEGEL: Q. When a submarine problem 16 manifested itself or a concern that led you to think 17 there might be a problem, you suggested a warning plate 18 be put on and the Navy rejected that suggestion? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. And if there's any type of hazard that 21 Westinghouse is aware of, there was the same type of 22 procedure available for suggesting it to the Navy and 23 the Navy was free to accept it or reject it? 24 A. No. 25 MR. HARVARD: Objection, form. HENJUM GOUCHER REPORTING SERVICES, L. P. 1-888-656-3376 JAMES GATE Page 155 1 THE WITNESS: No. Because what I was trying 2 to put on that caution plate on that bearing was a 3 procedure in which the crew would have to follow in 4 removing the bearing. In removing that bearing, if they 5 did not strictly adhere to the procedure, there could be 6 damage to the equipment and possible destruction of the 7 turbine itself. This is far different from what you are 8 suggesting about warnings of an environment. I'm 9 talking about a procedure in which sailors must follow. 10 MR. SIEGEL: Q. And we're still at the same 11 place and I'm wanting to know what prevented you from 12 making such a suggestion about any other problem that 13 was a danger to either sailors or the machinery itself? 14 A. An environmental thing that you're coming up 15 with. It's not a procedure. I had the procedure in 16 which I expect the sailors to follow and if they don't 17 follow it, all right, they are putting equipment in 18 jeopardy. 19 Q. Um-hum. And what about -- what prevented such 20 a recommendation from being made about an environmental 21 concern? Whether asbestos or any other type of concern. 22 A. There's no procedure involved as far as 23 environmental is concerned. There is a procedure in a 24 case which I've outlined to you. 25 Q. What is that? There's a formal procedure that HENJUM GOUCHER REPORTING SERVICES, L. P. 1-888-656-3376 JAMES GATE Page 156 1 exists on paper for voicing concerns about dangers to 2 equipment? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. What procedure is that? What's the name of 5 that procedure? 6 A. That's in the tech manual procedure. You had 7 an exhibit there. 8 Q. Well, I need you to find that for me. We need 9 to look back at that exhibit and I need you to find me 10 that procedure. 11 MR. HARVARD: If you can hand me Exhibit A, I 12 can tell you what the number of it is. 13 THE WITNESS: It's in a thick specification. 14 MR. HARVARD: This is my copy. It's 15 MIL-M-15071. 16 (Discussion held off the record.) 17 MR. SIEGEL: Okay. You' ve handed me paragraph 18 3.3.3.1 of plaintiffs' exhibit -- I'm not sure which 19 plaintiffs' exhibit this is. 20 MR. HARVARD: I don't think you marked it as 21 an exhibit. It's one of the ones that I had a sticky on 22 it earlier. It was produced. 23 MR. SIEGEL: Let's mark this as Plaintiffs' 24 Exhibit 12. 25 (Discussion held off the record.) HENJUM GOUCHER REPORTING SERVICES, L. P. 1-888-656-3376 JAMES GATE Page 157 1 MR. SIEGEL: Q. You've directed my attention 2 to paragraph 3.3.3.1, which is entitled, "Warnings and 3 Cautions"? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. And it talks about what types of warning and 6 caution statements shall be included? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. For emphasis in all applicable installation, 9 operating maintenance and repair procedures and data in 10 accordance with MIL-M-38784. Is that a different 11 specification? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. What specifications is that? Is that a 14 pre-existing? 15 A. Yes, it is. It says manuals, general style 16 and format requirements. 17 Q. Okay. Now, this -- am I right, then, that 18 this is a specification about how you list and describe 19 warnings or cautions in technical manuals? 20 A. Yes. And it's in the technical manual portion 21 of it, but you have to use it also with regard to the 22 unit itself as to whether you want to put a plate on the 23 unit. 24 Q. Now, this document is dated September 6th, 25 1994; is that right? HENJUM GOUCHER REPORTING SERVICES, L. P. 1-888-656-3376 JAMES GATE Page 158 1 MR. HARVARD: Actually, this document I think 2 is dated '78. 3 THE WITNESS: 1978. 4 MR. HARVARD: There's a cover sheet that's a 5 one-page document that's '94 revision to the '78 6 document. 7 MR. SIEGEL: Q. Okay. All right. Now, this 8 paragraph that you've given me doesn't deal with any 9 specific cautions or warnings. It simply is a guide to 10 how cautions and warnings about various things are to be 11 set out; is that correct? 12 A. That is correct. 13 Q. Okay. Who decides what specific cautions and 14 warnings are given in the manner prescribed here? 15 A. The engineer does. 16 Q. So if the engineer wants to warn about 17 something , the engineer has got to warn about that thing 18 in this manner? 19 A. That is correct. 20 Q. For instance, the first requirement listed is 21 that a warning statement shall be used to call 22 particular attention to a step of a procedure which if 23 not strictly followed could result in serious injury or 24 death of personnel. 25 So here is the Navy telling you you've got to HENJUM GOUCHER REPORTING SERVICES, L. P. 1-888-656-3376 JAMES GATE Page 159 1 warn about things that could cause serious injury or 2 death; is that correct? 3 A. That is correct. 4 Q. Paragraph C says, "Warning and caution 5 statements shall immediately precede the text of those 6 procedural steps where failure to strictly follow the 7 particular step of a procedure would be likely to result 8 in personal injury or death or damage to or destruction 9 of equipment. The warning or caution shall state the 10 consequences of failure to strictly follow the 11 procedural step to which it applies." 12 The next one says, "The use of warning or 13 caution statements shall be limited to significant 14 cases, so that too extensive use of these statements 15 will not make technicians and operators apathetic of 16 them and thus reduce their value." Is that correct? 17 A. That's correct. 18 Q. Again, all of these are the Navy telling the 19 engineer or in the case of turbines aboard ships that 20 we're talking that's Westinghouse, here's how you warn 21 about hazards. 22 A. That is correct. 23 Q. That you the engineer think we ought to warn 24 about? 25 A. That is correct. HENJUM GOUCHER REPORTING SERVICES, L. P. 1-888-656-3376 JAMES GATE Page 160 1 Q. Did the Navy ever send Westinghouse a list 2 with regard to Marine turbines of the hazards that the 3 Navy said you must warn about? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. What list was that? 6 A. It's in the specification. It's in one of the 7 exhibits, MIL-T-17600. 8 Q. Okay. We need to find that one, then. 9 (Discussion held off the record.) 10 MR. SIEGEL: Q. Okay. Now, you have 11 testified that MIL-T-17600 is the document in which the 12 Navy tells Westinghouse here are the hazards that you 13 must give warnings about. 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. All right. Can you please find that for me in 16 MIL- T-17600? 17 A. Sure. 18 (Discussion held off the record.) 19 THE WITNESS: Okay. I got it. At the top of 20 the paragraph. Third sentence -- but anyway, top of the 21 paragraph start. 22 MR. SIEGEL: Q. Okay. This is it? 23 A. No, there's another one. 24 Q. What's the other one? 25 MR. HARVARD: Look at page 26. Last sentence. HENJUM GOUCHER REPORTING SERVICES, L. P. 1-888-656-3376 JAMES GATE Page 161 1 THE WITNESS: Okay. The top paragraph, the 2 last sentence in that paragraph. 3 MR. SIEGEL: Q. Okay. Any others? 4 A. That's all I can remember. 5 Q. All right. So this is not an exhibit yet, is 6 it? 7 MR. HARVARD: No. 8 MR. SIEGEL: This needs to be Plaintiffs' 12. 9 What is Plaintiffs' Exhibit 12? 10 MR. HARVARD: I'm sorry, did you attach the 11 MilSpec on the technical manuals? 12 (Discussion held off the record.) 13 (Marked Plaintiffs' Exhibit 12.) 14 MR. SIEGEL: Q. Plaintiffs' Exhibit 12 is a 15 document numbered MIL-T-17600, open paren (Ships) close 16 paren dated June 26th, 1953 and it's entitled, "Military 17 Specifications Turbine Steam Propulsion for Naval 18 Shipboard Use." 19 Now, you have pointed out to me two sentences. 20 The first one appears on page 24. The third sentence 21 from the top, "In all cases of internal bolting, a 22 warning plate shall be permanently installed on the 23 casing to call attention to such bolts as must be 24 removed to lift the casing." 25 All right. That's a specification dealing HENJUM GOUCHER REPORTING SERVICES, L. P. 1-888-656-3376 JAMES GATE Page 162 1 with putting warnings about bolts. The next one that 2 you've pointed out is a warning about thermocouples, 3 right? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. Now, are you telling me that that's the -- the 6 warning about bolts and the warning about thermocouples 7 are the two warnings that the Navy wanted about hazards 8 aboard ships? 9 A. For turbines. 10 Q. For turbines. 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. And the Navy forbade warnings about anything 13 else? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. And where do you find that? 16 A. It's in the manual where it says that you 17 should not put on a lot of warnings because the people 18 get indifferent to them. 19 Q. Well, the one that we previously looked at 20 doesn't say only put a warning about bolts and 21 thermocouples, does it? 22 A. No. It just talks to warnings. 23 Q. Okay. It says, "A warning statement shall be 24 required for anything that could result in serious 25 injury or death," right? HENJUM GOUCHER REPORTING SERVICES, L. P. 1-888-656-3376 JAMES GATE 1 A. That's right. Page 163 2 Q. That's not limited to bolts or thermocouples, 3 4 A. No. 5 Q. It could be regarding any condition of 6 shipboard work that could lead to serious injury or 7 death; is that not correct? 8 MR. HARVARD: Objection, calls for 9 speculation. Misstates what the document says. 10 MR. SIEGEL: Q. Well, the document speaks of 11 all applicable installation operating maintenance and 12 repair procedures and data, does it not? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. That's hardly limited to thermocouples and 15 bolts, right? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. It is? 18 MR. HARVARD: Go ahead and finish your answer, 19 Jim. 20 THE WITNESS: What I was trying to tell you is 21 that warning statements and caution statements are 22 involved in procedures in which you can have injury or 23 damage. These are procedures in which the turbine 24 manufacturer considers very important. We want to limit 25 these procedures on the turbine so that people do not HENJUM GOUCHER REPORTING SERVICES, L. P. 1-888-656-3376 JAMES GATE Page 164 1 see them as too many signs in which they get ignored. 2 You want the procedures to be followed. 3 MR. SIEGEL: Q. Okay. But in fact, the Navy 4 required Westinghouse to warn about any procedure in 5 connection with the turbines, installation, operating 6 maintenance or repair that could yield serious injury or 7 death, didn't it? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. Thank you. Now -- and had Westinghouse 10 identified such a condition with regard to shipboard 11 turbines that it manufactured, in other words, anything 12 connected with the turbine's installation, operating, 13 maintenance or repair that could cause serious injury or 14 death, the Navy required that Westinghouse warn about 15 it, didn't it? 16 MR. HARVARD: Object to the form. 17 THE WITNESS: No. If it was involved in a 18 procedure in which if not adhered to would result in 19 serious consequences. 20 MR. SIEGEL: Q. Right. And when you say 21 procedure, that could mean a procedure involving 22 installation of the turbine, operating the turbine, 23 maintaining the turbine, or repairing the turbine; is 24 that not correct? 25 A. That is correct. HENJUM GOUCHER REPORTING SERVICES, L. P. 1-888-656-3376 JAMES GATE Page 165 1 Q. And if any procedure of those types with 2 regard to the turbines that Westinghouse manufactured 3 could yield serious injury or death Westinghouse was 4 required to warn about it, right? 5 A. That is correct. 6 MR. HARVARD: Objection. Form. 7 MR. SIEGEL: Q. Thank you. You can answer. 8 A. Yes. We would make sure of that. 9 Q. Okay. Now, I think we ought to mark as an 10 exhibit one of these affidavits that you've given. We 11 don't have to mark all of them, but I'm going to mark 12 the - 13 MR. HARVARD: Mark all three of them, if you'd 14 like. It's fine because you've got three cases. 15 MR. SIEGEL: Plaintiffs' Exhibit 13 will be 16 your affidavit filed in the Mathias case. Plaintiffs' 17 Exhibit 14 will be your affidavit filed in the Madden 18 case and Plaintiffs' Exhibit 15 will be your affidavit 19 filed in the Carter case. And if you want to look at 20 them, you've seen them, you know what they say. They 21 are your form affidavits? 22 THE WITNESS: Yes. 23 (Marked Plaintiff's Exhibits 13 through 15.) 24 MR. SIEGEL: Q. Could you look at paragraph 25 six of -- let's make sure -- which one do you have HENJUM GOUCHER REPORTING SERVICES, L. P. 1-888-656-3376 JAMES GATE 1 there? Page 166 2 A. I have the one for the Beale. 3 Q. Let me get that one. Paragraph 6, page 2. 4 You state beginning in the third line, you have verified 5 that the turbines, speaking of the turbines on the 6 Beale, were manufactured and supplied by Westinghouse 7 for this vessel under the strict direction and control 8 of the officers of the U.S. Navy; is that correct? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. Now, the strict direction and control of the 11 U.S. Navy would obviously include the specifications 12 that we've just been talking about, right? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. That would include MIL-M-15701H, paragraph 15 3.3.3.1? 16 A. Yes. 17 MR. HARVARD: Object to the form. Jim, I want 18 you to look at the date on that document and then get 19 the question answered again. Well, let me just 20 represent the date on the document is 1978. 21 MR. SIEGEL: Q. All right. Did -- let's go 22 back then to 15071. This is dated 1978 and it says 23 superseding MIL-M-15071G dated August 1st, 1969, right? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. And then it refers to -- it says, "See 6.6." HENJUM GOUCHER REPORTING SERVICES, L. P. 1-888-656-3376 JAMES GATE Page 167 1 Now, looking at paragraph 3.3.3.1, which is the warning 2 and caution specification, is that something that was 3 brand new as of 1969 or 1978? 4 MR. HARVARD: If you know. 5 THE WITNESS: I don't know. 6 MR. SIEGEL: Q. Is that specification 7 something you were familiar with in your years beginning 8 in 1953? 9 A. Well, not exactly 1953, but certainly by 1958 10 or '59 I was aware of this MIL-M-15071. 11 Q. Okay. And the MIL-M-15071 that you became 12 aware of in '58 or '59 dealt with warnings and cautions 13 in a manner similar to what is set out in this exhibit? 14 A. From what I understand, I don't really 15 remember. 16 Q. Does Westinghouse have a copy of the earlier 17 versions of MIL-M-15071? 18 A. We looked all over. We could not find an 19 earlier version. I went to all the tech writers and 20 told them to dig through their files to find an earlier 21 version. 22 Q. Okay. But an earlier version of MIL-M-15071 23 is a U.S. Navy document that exists somewhere in 24 government archive, right? 25 A. Yes. HENJUM GOUCHER REPORTING SERVICES, L. P. 1-888-656-3376 JAMES GATE Page 168 1 Q. Where would one go to look for that within the 2 government? 3 A. You tell me. 4 Q. But, again, your recollection of it at least 5 in the time period '58, '59 onward is that it was 6 similar in emphasis and wording to this exhibit? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. Now, what about before 1958, did you just not 9 know about 15071 or what? 10 A. I knew about it only through the 17600 11 specifications, which just dealt with warnings, that 12 turbines had to have at least these two types of 13 warnings and that is what was expected. 14 Q. You're speaking of the warnings concerning 15 bolts and the warnings concerning thermocouples? 16 A. That's correct. 17 Q. You knew that those warnings which are in MIL 18 17600 were related to a separate specification, 15071? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. And that's true even before 1958? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. And again, the earlier versions of 15071 that 23 were similar in nature to the one we're looking at are 24 part of the strict direction and control by the U.S. 25 Navy that it would exercise over Westinghouse turbines? HENJUM GOUCHER REPORTING SERVICES, L. P. 1-888-656-3376 JAMES GATE 1 A. That is correct. Page 169 2 Q. Now, your affidavit speaks at several points 3 of NAVSEA specifications. NAVSEA is N-A-V-S-E-A and 4 that is short for the Naval Sea Systems Command; is that 5 correct? 6 A. That's right. 7 Q. Just to be clear, MilSpec 15071 is a NAVSEA 8 specification; is that correct? 9 A. It is a military specification. What I'm just 10 checking to see is who wrote it because it could have 11 been any one of the government services that had written 12 it. 13 Q. Well, yeah, here we go. If we look on the 14 second page it -- I don't know if you're looking at the 15 same one. I'm sorry, you were looking at the right page 16 there. 17 A. "Specification approved for use by all 18 interested commands of the departments of the Navy and 19 Marine Corps and is available for use by all other 20 departments and agencies of the Department of Defense." 21 Very bottom. Any comments directed to Naval Ship 22 Engineering Center Department of the Navy. So generally 23 you would say that these are the people that wrote the 24 spec. 25 Q. Okay. In fact, under the heading of scope on HENJUM GOUCHER REPORTING SERVICES, L. P. 1-888-656-3376 JAMES GATE 1 that same page up toward the top -- Page 170 2 A. It sets forth, that's right. 3 Q. So when we talk about 15071, we are talking 4 about a NAVSEA specification? 5 A. That's correct. 6 Q. And, again, when your affidavit speaks of 7 NAVSEA specifications, those specifications include 8 15071? 9 A. That's correct. 10 Q. And that would also be true for the earlier 11 versions that you remember in the '50s? 12 A. That is correct. 13 MR. HARVARD: Let me add, is NAVSEA the old 14 BuShips? 15 A. Yes, it is, it just changed its name from 16 BuShips to NAVSEA. 17 MR. SIEGEL: Q. If you look at paragraph 18 nine which states that in the case of the U.S.S. Beale 19 NAVSEA specifications incorporated military 20 specifications and these documents require use of 21 asbestos containing thermal insulation for the turbines. 22 Now, the earlier -- I can't remember which 23 exhibit it is, but earlier we were looking at an exhibit 24 that discussed the various types of thermal insulations 25 and we looked at some of those, correct? HENJUM GOUCHER REPORTING SERVICES, L. P. 1-888-656-3376 JAMES GATE 1 A. Yes. Page 171 2 Q. And is that a NAV -- is that what you are 3 referring to when you talk about NAVSEA specifications 4 incorporating military specifications? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. That was S39, was it? 7 A. S39. 8 Q. And in fact, S39 discussed not only asbestos 9 containing thermal insulation, but also nonasbestos 10 containing thermal insulation such as mineral wool or 11 magnesia? 12 A. That is correct. 13 Q. Okay. Now, if you look at paragraph 11 with 14 me, "Before the construction of a U.S. Navy vessel, 15 including the U.S.S. Beale, there was an extensive set 16 of General Specifications for ships of the United States 17 Navy as well as U.S. Navy specifications, or military 18 specifications known as MilSpecs, already in place which 19 governed all aspects of ship construction." 15071 is 20 one of these MilSpecs, right? 21 A. That is correct. 22 Q. When you refer to general specifications, is 23 that a whole separate set that are not MilSpecs? 24 A. That is correct. 25 Q. What are those called? HENJUM GOUCHER REPORTING SERVICES, L. P. 1-888-656-3376 JAMES GATE Page 172 1 A. They are called the general specifications for 2 ships. 3 Q. Okay. Do any of them deal with the subject 4 that 15071 deals with? 5 A. No. 6 Q. Because military specifications are more 7 specific than general? 8 A. I stand corrected. I really don't know. 9 Q. Okay. 10 A. Because many of the MilSpecs were, let's say, 11 born -- I was going to say born, but initiated because 12 the general specifications for ships was too difficult 13 at times to modify. If you've ever seen them, you would 14 understand in that they are from a book that's about 15 this thick and if you are going to make changes, they 16 didn't want to -- it was a bound book and they didn't 17 want to issue the book all the time, so it was not 18 published very frequently, so therefore, the generation 19 of MilSpecs began to get larger and larger. 20 Q. So the MilSpecs are more specific than the 21 other set of specifications? 22 A. Yes, they are. 23 Q. All right. Okay. Paragraph 13. "The 24 turbines manufactured and supplied by Westinghouse for 25 any U.S. Navy vessel, including the referenced ship, had HENJUM GOUCHER REPORTING SERVICES, L. P. 1-888-656-3376 JAMES GATE Page 173 1 to meet detailed and precise U.S. Navy specifications." 2 Again, one of those specifications it had to 3 meet was 15071? 4 A. That is correct. 5 Q. All right. Let's look at paragraph 29. It's 6 kind of a repeat of other paragraphs, but again, that 7 simply says that all the turbines you built for the 8 Beale were built in accordance with U.S. Navy 9 specifications, which of course, would have included 10 15071. 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. Now, paragraph 31, "The U.S. Navy had precise 13 specifications as to the nature of any communication 14 affixed to machinery supplied by Westinghouse to the 15 Navy." 16 Are you referring in that sentence to anything 17 other than 15071? 18 A. Yes, the 17600. 19 Q. So insofar as thermocouples and bolts go there 20 was 17600? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. For anything else there was 15071? 23 A. That is correct. 24 MR. HARVARD: Object to the form. I'll clear 25 it up with a follow-up question. I can do it now, if HENJUM GOUCHER REPORTING SERVICES, L. P. 1-888-656-3376 JAMES GATE 1 you'd like. Page 174 2 MR. SIEGEL: All right. 3 MR. HARVARD: 15071 only dealt with the tech 4 manuals, not warnings on the actual equipment itself; is 5 that right? 6 THE WITNESS: That is correct. 7 MR. HARVARD: As far as the actual equipment 8 itself, the requirement for any warning would have been 9 set forth in the MilSpec for the turbine itself, 10 correct, and that was 17600? 11 THE WITNESS: That is correct. Right. 12 MR. SIEGEL: Q. Well, did the 17600 deal 13 with anything relating to turbines other than 14 thermocouples and bolts? 15 A. As far as warnings are concerned, no, it does 16 not. 17 Q. 15071 deals with any kind of serious danger as 18 long as it has to do with the applicable insulation 19 operating manuals or repair procedures, right? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. That's because the Navy wants you to put those 22 kinds of things into the technical manual because it's 23 the technical manual that tells the people on the ship 24 how to handle the turbine, right? 25 A. That is correct. HENJUM GOUCHER REPORTING SERVICES, L. P. 1-888-656-3376 JAMES GATE 1 Q. All right. Now, the next sentence, Page 175 2 "Westinghouse would not have been permitted, under the 3 specifications, associated regulations and procedures, 4 nor under the actual practice as it evolved in the 5 field, to affix any type of warning or caution statement 6 to a piece of equipment intended for installation onto a 7 Naval vessel beyond those required by the Navy." 8 Now, when you say, "beyond those required by 9 the Navy," are you saying that the only warning the Navy 10 required was the warning concerning thermocouples and 11 the warnings concerning bolts? 12 A. Yes, at this point. 13 Q. And had some other feature of the equipment 14 presented a severe hazard, you're saying that the Navy 15 would not have let you put a warning about that hazard? 16 A. Not without approval and consultation with the 17 Navy. 18 Q. Right. And had such consultation been made 19 and had such approval been given, such a warning then 20 thereafter would have been put on it? 21 A. Right. 22 Q. And if the engineer knew of such a hazard, it 23 was to consult with the Navy and possibly get Navy 24 approval? 25 A. Yes. HENJUM GOUCHER REPORTING SERVICES, L. P. 1-888-656-3376 JAMES GATE Page 176 1 Q. All right. Now, the next sentence is the 2 first sentence of paragraph 32, "The U.S. Navy had 3 precise specifications as to the nature of written 4 materials to be delivered with its turbines which 5 included engineering reference materials to assist the 6 engineering staff to service and maintain the turbines 7 which could generically be called instruction books or 8 technical manuals." 9 And it's 15071 and its requirements that 10 govern this sentence, right? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. The last sentence of this paragraph is that 13 these manuals included safety information to the extent 14 and only to the extent directed by the Navy. And in 15 fact, what you mean by directed by the Navy is what the 16 Navy says in 15071? 17 A. Right,and 17600. 18 Q. Right. And when I say 15071, I mean the list 19 of situations in which warnings or causes are required 20 in paragraphs 3.3.3.1? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. And inthat list, the Navy says if there is a 23 hazard that can result in serious injury or death that 24 has to do either with the installation or the operating 25 or the maintenance or the repair procedures of a HENJUM GOUCHER REPORTING SERVICES, L. P. 1-888-656-3376 JAMES GATE Page 177 1 turbine, you've got to put a warning in the technical 2 manual about it? 3 MR. HARVARD: Object to the form. 4 THE WITNESS: That is correct. 5 MR. SIEGEL: Q. And in 3.3.3.1, the Navy 6 doesn't say what the hazards are. The Navy specifies to 7 the Marine engineer here's how you handle the hazards 8 that you know about; is that correct? 9 A. Yes. 10 MR. SIEGEL: All right. Go ahead, Bill, I 11 don't have any questions. 12 MR. HARVARD: Can we take a break for a 13 second? 14 (Discussion held off the record.) 15 (Mr. Hartman not present 16 during the deposition.) 17 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. HARVARD 18 MR. HARVARD: Q. Mr. Gate, I'm Bill 19 Harvard. You know I represent Westinghouse and Viacom 20 in those cases. I want to ask you several questions 21 about some of the documents you've looked at today and 22 some of the questions you've been asked. All right, 23 sir? 24 A. All right. 25 Q. First, I want to show you Plaintiffs' Exhibit HENJUM GOUCHER REPORTING SERVICES, L. P. 1-888-656-3376 JAMES GATE Page 178 1 13, 14 and 15, which are copies of the affidavits that 2 you prepared and signed in the three cases at issue 3 here, the Mathias, Carter and Madden case? 4 A. I don't know about the Mathias, Carter and 5 Madden case. There are three cases here, affidavits 6 here. 7 Q. They deal with the U.S.S. Beale, Towers and 8 Wren? 9 A. That's correct. 10 Q. Having been shown what you've been shown and 11 asked what you've been asked by counsel for plaintiffs , 12 do you feel you need or want to change any of the 13 statements set forth in your affidavit? 14 A. No. 15 Q. Do you still believe the information 16 statements you made here to be true and correct to the 17 best of your knowledge? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. Let me go through and ask you a series of 20 questions. First, at the beginning of this deposition I 21 identified a box full of documents, which we produced at 22 this deposition to plaintiffs' counsel. 23 Do you recall that? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. Are those all documents which you found and HENJUM GOUCHER REPORTING SERVICES, L. P. 1-888-656-3376 JAMES GATE Page 179 1 retrieved from the storage records there at Sunnyvale , 2 California, formerly the Westinghouse facility? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. Do you believe those materials provide a 5 foundation or basis which support your opinions as 6 you've expressed them in this case? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. Do you know what is on each and every page of 9 each of those documents that fill a full box? 10 A. No. 11 Q. Are you familiar with and knowledgeable about 12 each and every page? 13 A. No. 14 Q. You were asked questions about a reference on 15 several pages from that box full of documents, which 16 were referred to as, quote, exceptions to 17 specifications. 18 Is that a notation you are familiar with and 19 conversant with from your years as a design and 20 supervising engineer for Westinghouse on U.S. Navy 21 Marine turbines? 22 A. No, I'm not familiar with the use of that 23 term. 24 Q. If changes to the designs of the Navy's 25 specific requirements for U.S. Navy turbines were to be HENJUM GOUCHER REPORTING SERVICES, L. P. 1-888-656-3376 JAMES GATE 1 made, who had to approve those changes? Page 180 2 A. Those changes had to be approved first by our 3 internal organization and then they would be sent out to 4 the contractual or contracts department and if there was 5 an active contract that we had with the U.S. Navy, they 6 would follow that chain of command back to the Navy for 7 their approval of a change. 8 Q. Okay. Did that include changes either to 9 equipment, to labels on the equipment or to the 10 technical manuals which were required to be supplied 11 with the equipment? 12 A. That pertain to all of the above. 13 Q. Whohad the finalapproval authority for 14 whether changes would be made or not made, Westinghouse 15 or the Navy? 16 A. The Navy. 17 Q. If Westinghouse had wanted to include warning 18 plates on their turbines to address insulation, who 19 would have to make the final approval of that? 20 A. The Navy. 21 Q. On the U.S. Navy turbines, both the main 22 propulsion turbines, the SSTGs and the auxiliary 23 turbines, for example, the pump drive turbines, which 24 you've talked about today on the Wren, the Towers and 25 the Beale, for all of that equipment, did Westinghouse HENJUM GOUCHER REPORTING SERVICES, L. P. 1-888-656-3376 JAMES GATE 1 ship those turbines to the U.S. Navy with thermal Page 181 2 insulation on the exterior of them? 3 A. No. We did not ship any of those turbines 4 with thermal insulation on the exterior. We shipped 5 them bare iron. 6 Q. What does that mean? 7 A. Bare iron means that there is no thermal 8 insulation on it and that what is showing is the steel 9 of which the turbines were built with. 10 Q. Did Westinghouse install insulation on the 11 turbines for those ships as supplied to the U.S. Navy? 12 A. No. 13 Q. Did they sell the insulation to insulate those 14 turbines to the U.S. Navy? 15 A. No. 16 Q. Did they require the insulation or the details 17 of which companies' products be placed on those turbines 18 by way of insulation? 19 A. No. 20 Q. Did Westinghouse choose the type of insulation 21 that was used on any of those turbines? 22 A. No. 23 Q. Did the documents which you reviewed 24 demonstrate who had the responsibility for insulation, 25 the exterior thermal insulation on those products? HENJUM GOUCHER REPORTING SERVICES, L. P. 1-888-656-3376 JAMES GATE Page 182 1 A. Yes, the documents show that the U.S. Navy had 2 the requirements to apply and install the thermal 3 insulation. 4 Q. Did the Westinghouse Marine Division consider 5 itself to be in the thermal insulation business for 6 those turbines? 7 A. No. 8 Q. When Westinghouse prepared the technical 9 manuals and made or manufactured or fabricated the 10 turbines themselves, were they involved in the 11 insulation for thermal insulation for those turbines? 12 A. No. 13 Q. When Mr. Siegel was talking to you about the 14 procedures under MIL-M-15071H -- and that is the 15 military specification for technical manuals. Do you 16 recall that? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. When it addressed cautions and warnings and 19 notes and talked about where requirements were for 20 warnings, first, did the Navy have to decide and approve 21 of any warnings, cautions or notes to be included in the 22 technical manuals? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. Okay. Were they the final authority on that? 25 A. Yes. HENJUM GOUCHER REPORTING SERVICES, L. P. 1-888-656-3376 JAMES GATE Page 183 1 Q. Did Westinghouse provide the U.S. Navy with 2 the technical manual on insulation? 3 A. No. 4 Q. Were they in the insulation business for 5 purposes of providing technical manuals, thermal 6 insulation? 7 A. No. 8 Q. What I want to do is talk through a couple of 9 the issues raised by some of the documents shown to you 10 by counsel for plaintiff. The first is Plaintiffs' 11 Exhibit 6, which were interrogatories or which appear to 12 be interrogatory answers in some Mississippi cases. 13 First, were you familiar with this before you 14 looked at it today? 15 A. I'd seen this document shown to me by 16 plaintiffs' counsel in Mississippi. 17 Q. It talks about asbestos containing products, 18 correct? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. And one of the products listed says steam and 21 gas turbines and ancillary insulation, correct? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. Do you read that to apply to the Marine 24 turbines supplied to the U.S. Navy? 25 A. Yes. HENJUM GOUCHER REPORTING SERVICES, L. P. 1-888-656-3376 JAMES GATE Page 184 1 Q. And is that because they would have had some 2 asbestos in them by way of gaskets? 3 A. That is correct. 4 Q. Did the U.S. Navy purchase, to your knowledge, 5 insulation from Westinghouse? 6 A. No. 7 Q. Plaintiffs' Exhibit 7 was identified as a 8 process specification, correct? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. Is this a U.S. Navy Marine turbine process 11 specification? 12 A. I don't know. 13 Q. Okay. Do you -- can you tell a date on this 14 document at all, when it was prepared? 15 A. I don't see any date on it. 16 Q. Is it a document with which you were familiar 17 or which you can even say was a Westinghouse process 18 specification? 19 A. I'm not familiar with this document at all. 20 Q. You just don't know about it at all, correct? 21 A. Correct. I don't know. 22 Q. Next, Plaintiffs' Exhibit No. 8. Had you ever 23 seen thi s document before today, the June 14th, 1950 24 letter? 25 A. No. HENJUM GOUCHER REPORTING SERVICES, L. P. 1-888-656-3376 JAMES GATE Page 185 1 Q. It does not -- does it a appear to be a 2 document of the Marine turbine division of Westinghouse? 3 A. No, it does not appear to be a Marine turbine 4 document. 5 Q. And you have no personal knowledge of this 6 document? You did not see or receive it during the 7 course of your work at Westinghouse, correct? 8 A. That is correct. 9 Q. Exhibit 9, a letter dated December 27th, 1962. 10 Does this appear to be a Marine turbine document? 11 A. No, it does not. It appears to be one from 12 the utility turbines. 13 Q. All right. And those are the land based 14 turbines, the power generation turbines? 15 A. That is correct. 16 Q. Not the turbines supplied to the U.S. Navy? 17 A. That's right. 18 Q. Had you ever seen this document before today 19 so far as you can remember? 20 A. No, I have not seen it. 21 Q. Did you know anything about this document 22 before being shown it today? 23 A. No. 24 Q. You were shown the affidavit of Mr. Joseph 25 Chilcote, Plaintiffs' Exhibit No. 10. Do you recall HENJUM GOUCHER REPORTING SERVICES, L. P. 1-888-656-3376 JAMES GATE 1 being shown this? Page 186 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. Do you know who Mr. Chilcote is other than 4 what's set forth in this affidavit? 5 A. No. 6 Q. Have you ever met him or dealt with him? 7 A. No. 8 Q. Do you know whether anything that is set forth 9 in this affidavit is true or correct or not? 10 A. I don't know anything. 11 Q. Let me show you in paragraph three, one of the 12 statements which is made -- let me find it for a 13 minute -- is we wanted to adapt our needs and our 14 specifications wherever possible to products and 15 materials already commercially available in order to 16 facilitate acquisition and to save time and money 17 otherwise required for development. This was invariably 18 true with respect to thermal insulation materials where 19 consultation with industry experts was regularly 20 accomplished with a view toward fully utilizing 21 available industry expertise and materials in fulfilling 22 the needs of the Navy. 23 First, did you consider the Westinghouse 24 Marine Division to be industry experts with respect to 25 thermal insulation materials? HENJUM GOUCHER REPORTING SERVICES, L. P. 1-888-656-3376 JAMES GATE 1 A. No. Page 187 2 Q. Second, did you consider the turbines, which 3 were supplied to the U.S. Navy pursuant to the contracts 4 to be products and materials already commercially 5 available? 6 A. No. 7 Q. Were the turbines supplied to the Navy by 8 Westinghouse provided pursuant to precise specifications 9 required by the U.S. Navy? 10 A. That is correct. 11 Q. And that's different from what is described 12 here in paragraph three regarding materials, correct? 13 A. Correct. 14 Q. Paragraph four, did you have involvement with 15 any individual thermal insulation manufacturers or trade 16 associations while with the Marine turbine division with 17 Westinghouse? 18 A. No. 19 Q. Do you know whether any of the information or 20 documents referred -- do you know anything about the 21 information in paragraph four or the documents referred 22 to in paragraph four? 23 A. No. 24 Q. Do you know whether they are true or the 25 statements there are true, correct or not? HENJUM GOUCHER REPORTING SERVICES, L. P. 1-888-656-3376 JAMES GATE Page 188 1 A. I have no idea. 2 Q. Paragraph 5 talks about consulting with 3 industry in obtaining its comments and product samples 4 for testing and comparison. 5 First of all, did the U.S. Navy test the 6 Westinghouse turbines? 7 A. Yes, they tested Westinghouse turbines. 8 Q. Was that each and every turbine which was 9 supplied to the U.S. Navy? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. And was that done under the supervision of 12 specific Naval officers? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. Do you know whether any of the information in 15 paragraph 5 is true or correct or not with respect to 16 how the Navy drafted military specifications for 17 specific material compositions? 18 A. I have no idea. 19 Q. You just have no knowledge of that whatsoever, 20 correct? 21 A. That is correct. 22 Q. Plaintiffs' Exhibit 11, which I've seemed to 23 have already misplaced. 24 (Discussion held off the record.) 25 MR. HARVARD: Q. Plaintiffs' Exhibit 11, HENJUM GOUCHER REPORTING SERVICES, L. P. 1-888-656-3376 JAMES GATE Page 189 1 deposition of Mr. John Haas, did you know before today 2 who he was? 3 A. No. 4 Q. Did you ever deal with him? 5 A. No. 6 Q. Do you know whether anything he said in the 7 deposition experts you've been shown are true, accurate 8 or not? 9 A. I have no knowledge. 10 Q. Do you know enough or do you have enough 11 information about the issues he addressed to even 12 comment intelligently about the questions and answers he 13 provided about how the Navy worked? 14 A. I have no knowledge or opinions. 15 (Discussion held off the record.) 16 MR. HARVARD: Q. You were shown Plaintiffs' 17 Exhibit 3, which was MilSpec 17523D, correct? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. And that deals with steam turbines, auxiliary 20 and reduction gear mechanical drive, correct? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. And are those essentially the small turbines 23 in the SSTGs and the pump drive turbines for the Navy? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. Now, the D at the end of the MilSpec means HENJUM GOUCHER REPORTING SERVICES, L. P. 1-888-656-3376 JAMES GATE Page 190 1 that this is a modification or a change or an update 2 which was issued on 7 June of 1976, correct? 3 A. Right. 4 Q. So prior editions ofthis MilSpec would say 5 MIL-T-17523 and if it was the original, no letter after 6 it and all subsequent changes go alphabetically, A, B, 7 C, D, correct? 8 A. That is correct. 9 Q. You were shown section 3.2.8 dealing with 10 substitute materials and asked questions about that from 11 this 1976 document, correct? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. Now, the Beale, theWren andthe Towers were 14 all built and the turbines were supplied to the Navy 15 well before 1976, correct? 16 A. That is correct. 17 Q. One of the documents that was produced and is 18 part of the materials we supplied this morning is the 19 original MIL-T-17523, which is from July 1, 1953, 20 dealing with military specifications, turbines, steam 21 general auxiliary Naval shipboard use. 22 Is that the predecessor to this document? 23 A. About three levels prior to it. 24 Q. And it in fact superseded another document 25 from 1938, did it not? HENJUM GOUCHER REPORTING SERVICES, L. P. 1-888-656-3376 JAMES GATE 1 A. Yes. Page 191 2 Q. And it's attached in the production. Does it 3 have a corresponding 3.2.8 which addresses substitute 4 materials? You can take a look and see whether it does 5 or not. 6 A. No, there is no corresponding paragraph within 7 the no rev of 17523. 8 Q. In 1953 who was required to provide the 9 thermal insulation for the exterior or the main 10 propulsion turbines, the auxiliary turbines, the pump 11 drive turbines and the SSTG sets which were supplied by 12 Westinghouse to the U.S. Navy pursuant to the military 13 specifications? 14 A. The Naval shipyard or the customer of the Navy 15 was required to -- was required by specifications to do 16 that. 17 Q. Now, you were shown exhibit -- Plaintiffs' 18 Exhibit 4, which is S39 on thermal insulation, correct? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. And is that chapter 39 from the general 21 specifications for U.S. Navy ships? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. And is that a BuShips manual? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. And do you consider yourself an expert in HENJUM GOUCHER REPORTING SERVICES, L. P. 1-888-656-3376 JAMES GATE 1 chapter 39 on thermal insulation? Page 192 2 A. No. 3 Q. And does it set forth within it what are the 4 requirements for the composition materials which are to 5 be placed on turbines for thermal insulation? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. And whether they contain asbestos or not are 8 set forth in the pages of that chapter, correct? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. You don't know, for example, whether the 11 magnesia material referred to by counsel for plaintiff 12 earlier was a product which was 85 percent magnesia and 13 approximately 15 percent asbestos, do you? 14 A. I have no idea. 15 Q. Okay. Let's take a look now -- let's go on to 16 this. You remember giving your deposition in the Robert 17 Langer case in February of 2002, and you were asked 18 about that by counsel for plaintiff, correct? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. You were asked about a question which began on 21 page 69 at line 21, correct? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. Let me read you a question which immediately 24 preceded that beginning at lines 7 and then ask you to 25 read your answer. HENJUM GOUCHER REPORTING SERVICES, L. P. 1-888-656-3376 JAMES GATE Page 193 1 "I'm assuming you never saw anything while 2 working for Westinghouse, the U.S. Navy or anyone else 3 that would have prohibited Westinghouse from placing a 4 warning about the hazards of asbestos on their turbines, 5 correct?" 6 What was your answer at that time? 7 A. "The drawings and technical manual all get 8 approved by the customer, which is the United States 9 Navy, and therefore, even during non U.S. Navy it would 10 be with the maritime service. There never has been an 11 occasion in which anyone, as far as I can remember, has 12 placed warnings or desired warnings of that nature." 13 Q. Now, let me show you the question beginning at 14 line 21. 15 "But my question is this, Mr. Gate. This is 16 actually a simple question and actually it's my last. 17 There was never anything that Westinghouse received from 18 any of the regulatory bodies or the U.S. Navy or any 19 builder that prohibited Westinghouse from placing a 20 warning concerning asbestos on the Marine turbines. Is 21 that not correct?" 22 And what your answer was at that time was, 23 "Not that I'm aware of." 24 First, that was your answer, correct? 25 A. That is correct. HENJUM GOUCHER REPORTING SERVICES, L. P. 1-888-656-3376 JAMES GATE Page 194 1 Q. Is that still your answer to that question 2 today? 3 A. No. If I were to get that question again, I 4 would say that we did know that we could not put warning 5 plates on the turbine and that we would have to have 6 approval through our company and through the Navy to try 7 to make an attempt to put warnings and caution plates 8 with regard to asbestos. 9 Q. Do you think you simply misunderstood that 10 question at the time it was asked? 11 A. Oh, yeah. In my -- in my judgment in reading 12 this, I was just astounded that that was the question. 13 Q. Does MIL-M-15071H, which is dated 17 July 14 1978, address the issue of warnings, cautions and notes? 15 A. Yes, it does. 16 Q. And is the practice set forth in this 17 consistent with what you understood the requirements and 18 practices were before 1978 for technical manuals? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. In your experience, was the use of caution or 21 warning labels widespread or not very extensive in the 22 Navy? 23 A. It was not very extensive. In fact, the Navy 24 would really review very thoroughly to limit the number 25 of warnings and caution plates. HENJUM GOUCHER REPORTING SERVICES, L. P. 1-888-656-3376 JAMES GATE Page 195 1 Q. Where it says in section 3.3.3.1 (D), "The use 2 of warning or caution statements shall be limited to 3 significant cases so that too extensive use of these 4 statements will not make technicians or operators 5 apathetic of them and thus reduce their value," was that 6 a practice that you observed in the '50s, '60s and '70s 7 of the U.S. Navy in limiting warnings and cautions? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. And is that how you and the people in the 10 Marine turbine division at Westinghouse understood and 11 appreciate the practice and procedures followed in the 12 manufacture of turbines and the placing of warning 13 plates on turbines or the recommendation of warning or 14 caution statements for steps or procedures in the 15 technical manuals? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. Is that the, quote, rule that you were 18 referring to earlier? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. Did you or the people at the Westinghouse 21 Marine turbine division receive that warnings or 22 cautions with respect to thermal insulation which you 23 were not supplying, not specifying and not selling to 24 the Navy were within the parameters of what you were to 25 address in your technical manuals? HENJUM GOUCHER REPORTING SERVICES, L. P. 1-888-656-3376 JAMES GATE 1 A. That's pretty long. Page 196 2 Q. Yes. You want me to start again? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. All right. The technical manuals. 5 A. Right. 6 Q. Did you provide detailed procedures and steps 7 for the use and application of insulation on Marine 8 turbines to the U.S. Navy? 9 A. No. 10 Q. And would warning statement or cautions have 11 to be used to address particular steps or procedures? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. Since theU.S. -- orsinceWestinghouse was 14 not addressing the insulation of thermal insulation on 15 their turbines, would there have been any place for a 16 warning or a caution statement addressing the 17 application of thermal insulation? 18 A. No, becausethere was noprocedure that we 19 would want to do it. 20 Q. Was that what you -- was the use or -- let me 21 start again. 22 Did you perceive that it was the obligation or 23 responsibility or area of expertise of the Westinghouse 24 Marine Division to address changes or modifications to 25 Navy specifications or technical manuals regarding HENJUM GOUCHER REPORTING SERVICES, L. P. 1-888-656-3376 JAMES GATE Page 197 1 thermal insulation and warnings appropriate to thermal 2 insulation? 3 A. No. 4 Q. When we looked earlier at MIL-T-17600, which 5 was the military specification dealing with main 6 propulsion turbines, do you recall that? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. Did that specify even as early as the original 9 MilSpec that the insulation was to be furnished by the 10 shipbuilder? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. Does the U.S. Navy only permit warnings 13 identified in the military specification to be placed on 14 warning plates on their turbines? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. And Westinghouse could make recommendations or 17 suggestions for warnings regarding steps or procedures 18 which they were asked to address, but they would have to 19 be approved by the U.S. Navy before they would be 20 allowed; is that correct? 21 A. That is correct. 22 Q. Now, with respect to technical manuals, could 23 any warnings or were warnings or cautions permitted to 24 be addressed in technical manuals other than those which 25 address specific steps or procedures which were being HENJUM GOUCHER REPORTING SERVICES, L. P. 1-888-656-3376 JAMES GATE 1 accomplished through the technical manual? Page 198 2 A. No. 3 Q. Is that what was set forth in MIL-M-15071? 4 A. That is correct. 5 Q. And we were looking at, I guess, revision H, 6 correct? 7 A. Correct. 8 Q. Who had the ultimate and final authority on 9 whether the turbines sold to the U.S. Navy and the 10 instructions and technical manuals accompanying that 11 equipment were acceptable to the U.S. government and the 12 U.S. Navy? 13 A. The U.S. Navy. 14 Q. And did Westinghouse as a contractor have any 15 discretion whatsoever to change any of those 16 specifications or precise requirements without the 17 approval and direction of the governmental agencies such 18 as the U.S. Navy? 19 A. No. 20 Q. In preparing the affidavits and in giving the 21 opinions and the statements you've made today, did you 22 rely not only on the documents which were attached to 23 this deposition, which are 41 year history with 24 Westinghouse in addressing the questions which have been 25 posed to you today? HENJUM GOUCHER REPORTING SERVICES, L. P. 1-888-656-3376 JAMES GATE 1 A. Yes. Page 199 2 Q. Thank you. 3 REDIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. SIEGEL 4 MR. SIEGEL: Q. It's true, isn't it, that 5 you could have -- that Westinghouse could make any 6 recommendation it wanted to to the Navy? 7 A. No. 8 Q. Why not? 9 A. Because we had set procedures to follow. 10 Q. No, I'm tired of that answer. I want to know 11 what prohibited you from making a recommendation about 12 anything in the world and seeing if you could get it 13 approved. 14 MR. HARVARD: Answer the question if you can. 15 THE WITNESS: I don't know. 16 MR. SIEGEL: Q. Nothing, right? 17 A. Right. 18 Q. Okay. And if there was any hazard in the 19 world, whether it was up your alley or not up your alley 20 or something that you normally dealt with or didn't deal 21 with , Westinghouse had the power to make such a 22 recommendation? The U.S. Navy didn't have to approve 23 it, but Westinghouse could make a recommendation, right? 24 A. I don't know. 25 Q. There's nothing prohibiting that, right? HENJUM GOUCHER REPORTING SERVICES, L. P. 1-888-656-3376 JAMES GATE 1 A. I don't know. Page 200 2 Q. If Westinghouse for some reason felt like a 3 giant smiley face should be placed on turbines, it had 4 the power to make that recommendation, right? The Navy 5 could turn it down, but then Westinghouse could make 6 such a recommendation? 7 A. I don't know. 8 Q. Well, I need to know if anything in your 9 experience or any regulation, procedure or practice 10 would have prohibited that. 11 A. I answered that yes. 12 Q. What? 13 A. The rules and regulations which we were 14 following. 15 Q. You were following the rules and regulations, 16 but the rules and regulations didn't tell you what type 17 of changes to suggest. They told you that you could 18 suggest changes, but that the ultimate discretion lay 19 with the Navy; is that right? 20 A. The rules and regulations are such that we 21 would not put or use warnings and procedures that are 22 not a part of our procedures in our manual. We just 23 wouldn't do it. 24 Q. I know you wouldn't do it, but there was 25 nothing legal or binding or in the nature of a HENJUM GOUCHER REPORTING SERVICES, L. P. 1-888-656-3376 JAMES GATE 1 specification that prevented you from suggesting Page 201 2 something that you thought should be suggested, right? 3 A. No. It's just the idea that it is not our 4 procedure and therefore we wouldn't do it. 5 Q. So when you talk about a prohibition, you're 6 talking about an idea in your head and in someone else 's 7 head at Westinghouse; is that correct? 8 MR. HARVARD: Object to the form. 9 THE WITNESS: It's not an idea. It is what we 10 have experienced over the years. We just wouldn't do 11 it. 12 MR. SIEGEL: Q. We're going to be as late as 13 six o'clock and we may be here in the darkness until I 14 get an answer from you about whether there was a rule or 15 regulation forbidding any change that Westinghouse 16 wanted to suggest. It may have been a change that you 17 would never have dreamed up and it may have been a 18 change that was not up your alley in terms of what you 19 were dealing with on a daily basis, but there's no set 20 of rules that precluded Westinghouse from suggesting 21 certain things, but not other things to the Navy; is 22 that right? 23 A. No. I disagree. 24 Q. All right. I need to know what set of rules 25 that is. HENJUM GOUCHER REPORTING SERVICES, L. P. 1-888-656-3376 JAMES GATE Page 202 1 MR. HARVARD: And let me object as cumulative 2 because he's answered this question at a minimum of half 3 a dozen times. 4 MR. SIEGEL: Q. Well, that's the problem. 5 He hasn' t answered it once yet. You've talked about 6 your experience and your ideas and I want to know of any 7 rules or regulations that said Westinghouse can make 8 these suggestions, but not other suggestions. 9 A. I refer back to the military on technical 10 manuals and that has been our experience prior to that. 11 Q. So the types of recommendations that 12 Westinghouse could make to the Navy were governed by 13 military specifications? 14 A. Involving procedures. 15 Q. Which included MilSpec 15071? 16 A. That is correct. 17 Q. And 15071 not only permitted Westinghouse, but 18 required Westinghouse to suggest a warning to the Navy 19 in certain enumerated instances, right? 20 MR. HARVARD: Object to the form. 21 THE WITNESS: Only if we had a procedure. If 22 we had no procedures to follow, we wouldn't do it. 23 MR. SIEGEL: Q. Where does it say that in 24 15071? 25 A. A and B. HENJUM GOUCHER REPORTING SERVICES, L. P. 1-888-656-3376 JAMES GATE Page 203 1 Q. Where does it say the Marine engineers shall 2 only make these types of warnings or suggestions if it 3 has to do with the Marine engineer's procedures? It 4 doesn't say that at all, does it? 5 A. That's your interpretation. 6 Q. I want to see the words. I'm not asking for 7 my interpretation or yours, I'm simply asking for where 8 in the document it says that. 9 MR. HARVARD: Read the words in A and B, just 10 read them aloud which you believe point out they call 11 for a procedure. Read A. 12 THE WITNESS: "A warning statement shall be 13 used to call particular attention to a step of a 14 procedure which if not strictly followed could result in 15 serious injury or death of personnel. B, a caution 16 statement shall be used to call particular attention to 17 a step of a procedure which if not strictly followed 18 could result in damage to or destruction of equipment." 19 MR. SIEGEL: Q. In fact, it talks exactly 20 about what type of procedures it means, doesn't it? 21 A. Yes, it's a procedure. 22 Q. And when it says procedures, in fact the Navy 23 tells Westinghouse exactly what procedures it's talking 24 about, right? It speaks of installation, operating, 25 maintenance or repair procedures, right? HENJUM GOUCHER REPORTING SERVICES, L. P. 1-888-656-3376 JAMES GATE 1 A. Yes. Page 204 2 Q. And if any such procedure can lead to serious 3 injury or death, then a warning is supposed to be 4 included in the technical manual? 5 A. That is correct. 6 Q. So when you're talking about the procedures 7 that let you, Westinghouse, know what types of warnings 8 were appropriate to suggest and what weren't, in fact, 9 we know exactly what procedures the Navy had in mind for 10 that, right? 11 MR. HARVARD: Object to the form. 12 Argumentative. If you can answer the question, answer 13 it. If it calls for speculation on your part, don't. 14 THE WITNESS: I don't know. 15 MR. SIEGEL: Q. What, you don't know or it 16 calls for speculation on your part? 17 A. It calls for speculation. I don't know. 18 Q. When the Navy speaks of operating maintenance 19 repair or installation procedures, what is unclear about 20 that to you? 21 A. It's unclear as to what procedure there is in 22 each one of those items that you mentioned. 23 Q. Okay. Well, let's talk about installation 24 procedures. What's unclear about that? 25 A. You have to have a procedure. HENJUM GOUCHER REPORTING SERVICES, L. P. 1-888-656-3376 JAMES GATE 1 Q. An installation procedure? Page 205 2 A. That is right. 3 Q. Any procedure involving the installation of 4 the turbine would be an installation procedure, right? 5 A. That's right. And would have steps A, B and 6 C. 7 Q. Any procedure involving the operation of the 8 procedure of the turbine would be an operating 9 procedure , correct? 10 A. That is correct. 11 Q. Anything involving the maintenance of the 12 turbine would be a maintenance procedure, right? 13 A. That is correct. 14 Q. If a maintenance procedure involves serious 15 injury or death you're supposed to put a warning about 16 it in the technical manual? 17 A. I would say we can bring it to the attention 18 of those approving the technical manual and they would 19 have to agree. 20 Q. Right, and Westinghouse can bring such a 21 danger to the attention first of Westinghouse higher ups 22 and then of the Navy? 23 A. That is correct. 24 Q. And if the Navy approves it, then 25 Westinghouse's suggested change or warning is put into HENJUM GOUCHER REPORTING SERVICES, L. P. 1-888-656-3376 JAMES GATE 1 effect in the technical manual? Page 206 2 A. That is correct. 3 Q. The same would be true when it says repair 4 procedures? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. Now, the documents that I showed you and Mr. 7 Harvard went through with you, Westinghouse documents, 8 you said deal with insulation, but don't deal with 9 Marine turbines; is that right? 10 A. Deal with? 11 Q. There were some documents involving, for 12 instance, the turbines known as series 286? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. And those are turbines that are being 15 manufactured by Westinghouse, but not Marine turbines. 16 A. That is correct. 17 Q. And the documents you looked at had to do with 18 the types of insulation that would go on those turbines? 19 A. On utility type turbines. 20 Q. Right. And so people at Westinghouse 21 Corporation were regularly dealing with insulation on 22 turbines not necessarily Marine turbines? 23 A. Those who were building utility type turbines, 24 they were aware of, yes. 25 Q. And would you agree with me that those HENJUM GOUCHER REPORTING SERVICES, L. P. 1-888-656-3376 JAMES GATE 1 documents indicate that those were Westinghouse 2 personnel? Page 207 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. In fact, Mr. Tiefel is a namethat you 5 recognize, right? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. And Mr. Tiefel was dealing with insulation 8 going on turbines manufactured by Westinghouse, just not 9 Marine turbines? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. And as to the Marine turbines, Westinghouse 12 knew that insulation would be put on them eventually, 13 right? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. And infact, asyou've testifiedin many 16 instances, Westinghouse was required to put on the rails 17 and hooks to facilitate the application of that 18 insulation? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. Now, if -- so that Westinghouse was no 21 stranger to the use of asbestos insulation and turbines; 22 is that correct? 23 In turbines - 24 A. Westinghouse Marine department was not aware 25 of the ins and outs of using asbestos. HENJUM GOUCHER REPORTING SERVICES, L. P. 1-888-656-3376 JAMES GATE Page 208 1 Q. But even you'll admit that these internal 2 Westinghouse documents suggest that as to nonMarine 3 turbines, Westinghouse had an ongoing involvement with 4 the use of insulation, nonMarine turbines? 5 MR. HARVARD: Object to the form. Vague, 6 calls for speculation. 7 THE WITNESS: On nonMarine turbines we are not 8 aware of what's going on there. 9 MR. SIEGEL: Q. When you say we, you mean 10 the people in the Marine Division? 11 A. In the Marine Division, that's right, in the 12 Marine department we are not aware of what's going on 13 with nonMarine turbines. 14 Q. Now, was Mr. Tiefel in the Marine department 15 or the nonMarine department? 16 A. He was in the service nonMarine. He was in 17 the service department. 18 Q. And the service department worked both with 19 Marine people and nonMarine people? 20 A. That is correct. 21 Q. And so Mr. Tiefel from time to time would have 22 been working with Marine types and nonMarine types? 23 A. That is correct. 24 Q. Now, even though Westinghouse on its Marine 25 turbines didn't put on insulation typically, those HENJUM GOUCHER REPORTING SERVICES, L. P. 1-888-656-3376 JAMES GATE Page 209 1 turbines in fact had asbestos containing products inside 2 them, right? 3 A. Yes. Gaskets. 4 Q. Such as gaskets. 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. And you knew that? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. And you knew that back in the '50s when you 9 first began working with asbestos or rather with 10 Westinghouse Marine turbines? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. And you knew those gaskets contained asbestos? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. And you knew that in the process of 15 maintaining turbines aboard ships sometimes those 16 gaskets would be disturbed, right? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. And you knew that those gaskets when disturbed 19 could give off asbestos dust, correct? 20 MR. HARVARD: Objection, calls for 21 speculation. 22 THE WITNESS: I don't know. 23 MR. SIEGEL: Q. Have you ever seen a gasket 24 ripped up or removed? 25 A. Yes. HENJUM GOUCHER REPORTING SERVICES, L. P. 1-888-656-3376 JAMES GATE Page 210 1 Q. Have you ever seen it give off asbestos dust? 2 A. No. 3 Q. No? 4 A. No. 5 Q. Okay. But you knew that the gaskets were in 6 the turbines? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. And you knew they contained asbestos? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. And you knew that in the process of 11 maintaining and repairing the turbines they would have 12 to be disturbed? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. Now, on the affidavit of Mr. Chilcote you 15 don't -- I understand your testimony that you just have 16 no basis on which to comment in any respect on what he 17 says, right? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. You wouldn't say that anything that he says is 20 false, you just don't know if it's true or false? 21 MR. HARVARD: Object to the form. 22 MR. SIEGEL: Is that correct? 23 MR. HARVARD: Prior testimony stands for 24 itself. 25 MR. SIEGEL: Q. You can answer. HENJUM GOUCHER REPORTING SERVICES, L. P. 1-888-656-3376 JAMES GATE 1 A. I don't know. Page 211 2 Q. You just don't know one way or the other? 3 A. That's right. 4 Q. Would Westinghouse order and install the 5 gaskets in the turbines itself before delivery to the 6 Navy? 7 A. Yes, with piping systems that are integral 8 within the turbine, Westinghouse would order asbestos 9 gaskets for the steam system as required by Navy 10 regulations. 11 Q. Were there any other products in the internal 12 workings of the turbine that contained asbestos? 13 A. Not that I can remember. 14 Q. Did you have a particular gasket supplier that 15 you recall or did you order them from all kinds of 16 companies? 17 A. I have no idea who they purchased gaskets 18 from. 19 Q. Who would know that? That wasn't your job to 20 order parts like that? 21 A. That's right. That is not my job. 22 Q. Whose job was that? 23 A. The purchasing department. 24 Q. Okay. Somebody in the Westinghouse purchasing 25 department would know the answer to that question? HENJUM GOUCHER REPORTING SERVICES, L. P. 1-888-656-3376 JAMES GATE 1 A. Yes. Page 212 2 Q. And was the purchasing department, was there a 3 Marine purchasing department and a nonMarine purchasing 4 department or just a purchasing department? 5 A. Just a purchasing department. 6 Q. Okay. I think that's all the questions I 7 have. 8 RECROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. HARVARD 9 MR. HARVARD: I've got one follow-up. It's 10 just one though. 11 Q. Mr. Gate, am I to understand your testimony to 12 be this, that in its documents to the U.S. Navy 13 Westinghouse did not provide to the U.S. Navy regarding 14 Marine turbines steps or procedures to install, remove 15 or reinstall the insulation on those turbines? 16 A. That is correct. 17 Q. And that's true for main propulsion turbines, 18 for the auxiliary turbines, for the SSTGs and for the 19 turbine drives for pumps, correct? 20 A. That is correct. 21 Q. Thanks. 22 MR. SIEGEL: I'm sorry, could you read back 23 not that last question, but the one before. 24 (Record read.) 25 REDIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. SIEGEL HENJUM GOUCHER REPORTING SERVICES, L. P. 1-888-656-3376 JAMES GATE Page 213 1 MR. SIEGEL: Q. The people who worked in the 2 nonMarine Division, these were activities that were 3 going on, among other places, at the same facility you 4 worked at, right, South Philadelphia? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. And these people who were working with 7 nonMarine turbines and who were working with the 8 insulation to be applied on those turbines were also 9 employees of Westinghouse Electric Corporation just like 10 you were? 11 A. I don't know. 12 Q. Were you ever aware of anyone working at the 13 South Philadelphia Works who was not employed by either 14 Westinghouse or the Navy? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. Such as whom? 17 A. Vendors, subcontractors. 18 Q. All right. People such as subcontractors or 19 vendors aside, people building the turbines and 20 manufacturing them worked for Westinghouse, is that 21 correct? 22 A. Yes. The subcontractors and workmen, yes. 23 Q. And for instance, Mr. Tiefel worked for 24 Westinghouse? 25 A. Yes. HENJUM GOUCHER REPORTING SERVICES, L. P. 1-888-656-3376 JAMES GATE Page 214 1 Q. All right. That's all I have. I don't have 2 any further questions, but I do want to make a request 3 on the record. Earlier Mr. Gate talked about e-mails, 4 communications from you all to him or not from you all, 5 but from other lawyers to him, and we would like to 6 request those as well as his time sheets. They can be 7 redacted obviously for anything that you all want to 8 redact, but anything we are entitled to, we would like 9 those communications and the dates they were made, which 10 I guess will be reflected on the e-mails themselves. 11 MR. HARVARD: I think -- let mejust say, I 12 think he already testified that he has deleted all those 13 e-mails and that they are not retrievable. I don't -- I 14 appreciate you made your request. I don't know if A, 15 the e-mails are retrievable or B, what our position 16 regarding the time sheets to the extent they are 17 retrievable are going to be. 18 But, Jim, until you hear further from me do 19 not delete any further e-mails which may be on your 20 system regarding any work you've done on this case. 21 Okay? 22 THE WITNESS: Yes. 23 MR. SIEGEL: And just to respond to that, we 24 would like not only the e-mails sent by Mr. Gate, but 25 the same e-mail could be retrieved from Miss Tate's HENJUM GOUCHER REPORTING SERVICES, L. P. 1-888-656-3376 JAMES GATE Page 215 1 system as well as Mr. Gate's system. And whether or 2 not -- I mean as a final matter, if we're told that 3 something is irretrievable, we want to know why. We 4 want to know the details of the system that make it 5 irretrievable. Okay. 6 MR. HARVARD: If you've got -- I think Mr. 7 Gate has expressed his understanding of his situation. 8 I appreciate the request. Can I ask you to make a 9 request -- would you please send me that in writing? 10 MR. SIEGEL: Sure. I'll put it in writing. 11 MR. HARVARD: You have communicated to me 12 today. I understand it. I take sorry notes, I don't 13 want to wait until I get the darn transcript to have to 14 start sending this to the right folks. A follow-up 15 letter would be appreciated, but consider the message 16 taken. 17 MR. SIEGEL: We'll send that letter tomorrow. 18 Again, for the record I'm going to ask that it be 19 handled in an expedited fashion because you all are 20 putting us under the MBL guns, so we want to resolve 21 these timeliness issues while we can. 22 (Whereupon, the proceedings were adjourned at 23 6:10 p.m.) 24 25 HENJUM GOUCHER REPORTING SERVICES, L. P. 1-888-656-3376 JAMES GATE 1 2 PAGE LINE 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 CHANGES AND SIGNATURE CHANGE REASON HENJUM GOUCHER REPORTING SERVICES, L. P. 1-888-656-3376 Page 216 JAMES GATE Page 217 1 I, JAMES M. GATE, have read the foregoing 2 deposition and hereby affix my signature that same is 3 true and correct, except as noted above. 4 5 6 JAMES M. GATE 7 8 THE STATE OF) 9 10 COUNTY OF) 11 12 Before me, on this day 13 personally appeared JAMES M. GATE, known to me (or 14 proved to me under oath or 15 through) (description of identity 16 card or other document) to be the person whose name is 17 subscribed to the foregoing instrument and acknowledged 18 to me that they executed the same for the purposes and 19 consideration therein expressed. 20 21 Given under my hand and seal of office on this 22 the of 23 24 NOTARY PUBLIC IN AND FOR 25 THE STATE OF HENJUM GOUCHER REPORTING SERVICES, L. P. 1-888-656-3376 JAMES GATE 1 LAURA MADDEN, individually and as) IN THE DISTRICT COURT Personal Representative of the ) SOUTHERN DISTRICT 2 Heirs and Estate of THOMAS MADDEN, JR., Deceased. ) OF TEXAS ) 3 Plaintiffs, ) GALVESTON DIVISION 4 vs. ) ) No. 3-02CV00194 5 Able Supply Company, INC., et al., 6 Defendants. ) ) ) ) ) 7 COLLEEN CARTER, Individually and ) IN THE DISTRICT COURT as Personal Representative of the) EASTERN DISTRICT OF 8 and Estate of MARVIN CARTER, ) TEXAS Deceased; and SUZETTE OLSON, ) 9 Individually and as Personal ) PARIS DIVISION Representative of the Heirs and ) 10 Estate of ORVILLE OLSON, Deceased) No. 3-02CV00009 Plaintiffs, ) 11 vs. ) ) 12 ) ACandS, INC., et al. ) 13 IN RE: Defendants. ) ) 14 FEDERAL-MOGUL GLOBAL, INC. Debtor, ) IN THE DISTRICT COURT ) WESTERN DISTRICT OF 15 ) TEXAS DIANE MATHIAS, Individually and ) 16 as Personal Representative of the) EL PASO DIVISION Heirs and Estate of GEORGE ) 17 MATHIAS, Deceased, ) No. 01-10578 Plaintiffs, ) 18 ) EP 01 CA 0380 DB vs. ) 19 ) ACandS, INC., et al. ) 20 Defendants. ) 21 REPORTER'S CERTIFICATION 22 DEPOSITION OF JAMES M. GATE TAKEN ON JUNE 18, 2002 23 24 I, Laura D. Fowler, Certified Shorthand Reporter 25 in and for the State of California , hereby certify to HENJUM GOUCHER REPORTING SERVICES, L. P. 1-888-656-3376 Page 218 JAMES GATE Page 219 1 the following: 2 That the witness, JAMES M. GATE, was duly sworn by 3 the officer and that the transcript of the oral 4 deposition is a true record of the testimony given by 5 the witness; 6 That the deposition transcript was submitted on 7 to the witness or the attorney for 8 the witness for examination, signature, and return to me 9 by ; 10 That the amount of time used by each party at the 11 deposition is as follows: 12 Mr. Siegel, 05:30 13 Mr. Harvard, 00:37 14 That pursuant to information given to the 15 deposition officer at the time said testimony was taken, 16 the following includes counsel for all parties of 17 record: 18 FOR THE PLAINTIFFS: MR. CHARLES SIEGEL 19 MS. MICHELLE NORTON WATERS & KRAUS, LLP 20 3219 McKinney Avenue, Suite 3000 Dallas, Texas, 75204 21 Phone: (214) 357-6244 22 FOR WESTINGHOUSE: MR. WILLIAM D. HARVARD 23 EVERT & WEATHERSBY, LLC P.O. Box 1787 24 Athens, Georgia, 30603 Phone: (706) 583-8665 25 HENJUM GOUCHER REPORTING SERVICES, L. P. 1-888-656-3376 JAMES GATE 1 FOR HALLIBURTON COMPANY, KELLOGG BROWN & ROOT, DRESSER INDUSTRIES, INC.: 2 MR. JAMES A. LOWERY, III GODWIN and GRUBER 3 1201 Elm Street, Suite 1700 Dallas, Texas, 75270 4 Phone: (214) 939-4893 5 FOR IMO INDUSTRIES: MR. SHAWN M. RIDLEY 6 HOWARD, ROME, MARTIN & RIDLEY 1775 Woodside Road, Suite 200 7 Redwood City, California, 94061 Phone: (650) 365-7715 8 FOR CONGOLEUM, INC.: 9 MR. JAMES O. HARTMAN GLASPY & GLASPY 10 One Walnut Creek Center 100 Pringle Avenue, Suite 750 11 Walnut Creek, California, 94596 Phone: (510) 947-1300 12 The following appeared via telephone: 13 FOR COMBUSTION ENGINEERING: 14 MR. THOMAS SCOTT SPAIN & HASTINGS 15 2350 Two Houston Center 909 Fannin Street 16 Houston, Texas, 77010 Phone: (713) 650-9700 17 FOR WILEY STOKER: 18 MR. BERNARD ZWILLENBERG DEHAY & ELLISTON, LLP 19 Bank of America Plaza 901 Main Street, Suite 3500 20 Dallas, Texas, 75202 Phone: (214) 210-2445 21 FOR FOSTER WHEELER: 22 MR. LOU MILTENBERGER CORDRAY, GOODRICH & MILTENBERGER 23 108 West 8th Street, Suite 500 Fort Worth, Texas, 76102 24 Phone: (817) 820-0343 25 HENJUM GOUCHER REPORTING SERVICES, L. P. 1-888-656-3376 Page 220 JAMES GATE Page 221 1 I further certify that I am neither counsel for, 2 related to, nor employed by any of the parties or 3 attorneys to the action in which this testimony was 4 taken, and further that I am not financially or 5 otherwise interested in the outcome of this action. 6 Further certification requirements pursuant to 7 Rule 203 of TRCP will be certified to after they have 8 occurred. 9 CERTIFIED to by me this the day of 10 , 2002. 11 12 13 LAURA D. FOWLER, CSR-7054 14 Certified Shorthand Reporter 15 for the State of California 16 Expiration date: 11/21/02 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 HENJUM GOUCHER REPORTING SERVICES, L. P. 1-888-656-3376 JAMES GATE Page 222 1 REPORTER'S CERTIFICATION UNDER RULE 203 TRCP 2 The original deposition was/was not returned to 3 the deposition officer on; 4 If returned, the attached Changes and Signature 5 page contains any changes and the reasons therefor; 6 If returned, the original deposition was delivered 7 to, Custodial Attorney; 8 That $is the deposition officer's 9 charges to the Plaintiffs for preparing the original 10 deposition transcript and any copies of exhibits; 11 That the deposition was delivered in accordance 12 with Rule 203.3, and that a copy of this certificate was 13 served on all parties shown herein onand 14 filed with the Clerk. 15 Certified to by me this_____ day of, 16 2002. 17 18 19 LAURA D. FOWLER, CSR-7054 20 Certified Shorthand Reporter 21 for the State of California 22 Expiration date: 11/21/02 23 24 25 HENJUM GOUCHER REPORTING SERVICES, L. P. 1-888-656-3376