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FILENAME: Flintkote (FLK) DATE: 1984 Sept DOC#: FLK103 DOCUMENT DESCRIPTION: Legal - Deposition of J.H. Main vu. Pleasant, S C Jilt'! STATE OF- CALIFORNIA : SUPERIOR COURT FOR THE COUNTY OF LOS ANGELES x DOROTHY ST. JACQUE, ET AL, Plaintiffs, : -versus- : No. C 137465 JOHNS-MANVILLE SALES CORPORATION, ET AL, Defendants. : x Deposition of J . H. MAIN, taken pursuant to Notice at the United States Courthouse, 746 Chapel Street, New Haven, Connecticut, before Gerald Gale, a Registered Professional Reporter and a Notary Public in and for the State of Connecticut, on Thursday, September 20, 1984 at 10:00 a.m. SANDERS, GALE & RUSSELL Certified Stnotype Reporters 2 r \v APPEARANCES FOR THE PLAINTIFFS: SIMKE, CHODOS, .SIEBERFEIrD & SOLE, INC. 6300 Nilshire Boulevard, Suite 9000 Los Angeles, California 90048. By: ROMAN M, SILBERFELD, ESQ., of Counsel ROSE, KLEIN & MARIAS 888 West 6th Street, Second Floor Los Angeles, California 90017 By: GREGORY STAMOS, ESQ., of Counsel MARTIN & HARRISON 501 Shatto Place, Suite 100 Los Angeles, California 90020 By: GUY J. LEWIS, ESQ., of Counsel BIREN & BRUYNEEL 815 Moraga Drive Los Angeles, California 90049 3v: MICHAEL McNULTY, ESQ., of Counsel FOR THE DEFENDANT LAKE ASBESTOS OF OUS3EC, LTD.: PORZIO, BROMBERG & NEWMAN 163 Madison Avenue Morristown, New Jersey 07960 By: ROY ALAN COHEN, ESQ., of Counsel FOR THE DEFENDANTS CELOTEX and CAREY CANADA: ADINOLFI, O'BRIEN & HAYES One Financial Plaza Hartford, Connecticut 06103 By: JOSEPH A. O'BRIEN, ESQ., of Counsel GALl & RUSSELL Certified StcnoivDO Reporters N h w h a v L N c o N>N ; i : 3 A P P E A R A N C E S CONT'D. FOR THE DEFENDANT GAF: HOPPIN, CAREY & POWELL 370 Asylum Street Hartford, Connecticut 06103 By: JOHN T. HARRIS, ESQ., of Counsel FOR THE DEFENDANT PITTSBURGH-CORNING: DANAHER, O'CONNELL, ATTMORE, TEDFORD & FLAHERTY, 60 Washington Street Hartford, Connecticut 06106 By: J. SPANGLER KIEFFER, III, ESQ., of Counsel P.C. FOR THE DEFENDANT RAY3EST0S-MANHATTAN: BAI, POLLOCK & DUNNIGAN 10 Middle Street, Suite 707 Bridgeport, Connecticut 06604 By: KATHLEEN M. SHEAHAN, Attorney-at-Law FOR THE DEFENDANT UNION CARBIDE CORPORATION: GIBSON, DUNN & CRUTCHER 333 South Grand Avenue Los Angeles, California 90071 By: ELIZABETH A. GRIMES, Attorney-at-Law FOR THE DEFENDANT FLINTKOTE: LaFOLLETTE, JOHNSON, SCHROETER & -DeHAAS 320 North Vermont Avenue Los Angeles, California 90004 By: RUDOLF H. SCHROETER, ESQ., of Counsel SANDERS. GALE a RUSSELL Certified Stnotype Reporters c V 4 A P P E A R A N C E S CONT'D FOR THE DEFENDANT FLINTKOTE: THOMPSON, HINE & FLORY National, City Bank Building Cleveland, Ohio 44114 By: KEITH L. CARSON, ESQ., of Counsel FOR THE DEFENDANT NICOLST INDUSTRIES, INC.: McKAY, BYRNE, GRAHAM & VAN DAM 3250 Wilshire Boulevard, Suite 603 Los Angeles, California 90010-1578 By: PATRICIA L, WINTERS, Attorney-at-Law FOR THE DEFENDANT FIBER30ARD: FLANAGAN, MULVEY & OLIVER 83 Trumbull Street New Haven, Connecticut By: ROBERT OLIVER, ESQ., of Counsel FOR THE DEFENDANT H. K. PORTER: HOWARD, KOHN, SPRAGUE & FITZGERALD 237 Buckingham Street Hartford, Connecticut By: JAMES M. MOHER, ESQ., of Counsel FOR THE DEFENDANT KEENE CORPORATION: HITT, MIHALAKOS, SACHNER & COLEMAN 350 South Main Street Cheshire, Connecticut By: ROBERT N. REYNOLDS, JR., ESQ., of Counsel 5 MR. SCHROETER: We are here for the noticed deposition of Mr. James Main, retired from the Flintkote Company, and I am Schroeter, counsel for the Flintkote Company; Keith Carson, to my right, counsel for the Flintkote Company, both on questions and with consent of Mr. Main, counsel for him for purposes of this proceeding, and in that capacity; and wanting you all to know how the day will go, I want to tell you right now that for reasons of the health and strength of Mr. Main, we must limit you on this occasion to today. The deposition notice spoke of two days, but I-am asking you to do what you can in one day, and if there must be another,, it must be on another occasion. And I will tell you that Mr. Main is on a variety of medications, and I know that some of you are doing medical malpractice work and you love hearing these names. I want to give them to you. He is taking essentially daily the following: One is Tenormin, T-e-n-o-r-m-i-n. It keeps the heart going the way it should, he hopes. He is taking for blood pressure Hydrochlorthiazide. He.is taking Valium. He has a bottle of 1 2 3 4 5 7 3 9 10 i i i > 13 \ 15 15 17 1 1 c0 1 ? i J J. 6 nitroglycerin in his pocket for use when needed, I gather. And he is, in addition, for non-coronary! purposes, taking a uric acid balancing type of . medication called Allopurinol. j I am not a doctor, and he is not a doctor, j 1 t but we both and you all appreciate that given j the fact that Mr. Main is 79 years of age, the : request to make this a one-day session is reasonable, and at any rate, we will insist upon it. Certainly Mr. Main will try.to be as concise and efficient in his responses, as you no doubt will be in your questions, and I have asked Mr. Main and, in fact, Roman Silberfeld has wanted to be sure that we do it this way, that Mr. Main tell us when he needs a rest or would like to just walk about a little bit and relax for a few minutes. He will tell us. We will rely on you, Mr. Main, to let us all..know. So the gavel goes to you, Roman. H. M A I N, called as a witness, having been first duly sworn by Gerald Gale, a Notary Public in and for the State of Connecticut, was examined and testified as follows: C err! j i :! S ; cm : 7 DIRECT EXAMINATION BE MR, SILBERFELD: Q. Good morning, Mr, Main, A. Good morning, Q, I. want to ask you at the outset, if you would, because there are a number of people down at the end of the room, please try to keep your voice up. A, I will. Q. I am sure you have had a chance to talk to Mr. Schroeter about the nature of the deposition, have you not? A. Yes, Q. Have you ever had your deposition taken before,sir? A. Yes. Q. In connection with any claims against your former employer, the Flintkote Company? A. No. 0. What type of matter was it? A. Litigation involving patents and licensing. Q. At the risk of repeating some of the things you may already know about a deposition or some things Mr. Schroeter may have told you, let me tell you what we are here about specifically, Most of the lawyers here represent people in California who have filed lawsuits against certan asbestos SANDERS. GALE 8 manufacturers, including the Flintkote Company, arising out of their exposure to asbestos products and their claims that those exposures have caused them certain injuries. This deposition is part of the lawsuits that have been filed in California; you understand that, sir? A. Yes. Q. We have come to take your deposition in connection with what you know about your former employer and its operations as it relates to asbestos products; you understand that, sir? A. Yes. Q. What the deposition will consist of is primarily a question and answer session, and everything that is said here today is being taken down by the court reporter who is seated between us. At the end of the deposition, he will cause his notes to be typed up into a booklet. It looks something like this booklet, which is another deposition taken in these cases. You will be given the booklet and you will be asked to review it and probably sign it under penalty of perjury. That will become your testimony in these Los Angeles cases except if you were to come to Los Angeles and testify in person at some later time. 5:ViDER.5. i-H 9 If at any time during the deposition I ask you a question or for that matter anyone asks you a question which you don't understand or which doesn't make any sense to you, I would like you to tell us that because we don't want you to answer a question which doesn't make sense. We want your best testimony here today, and if we ask a question which is nonsensical, just tell us that. Would you do that, sir? A. Yes. Q. It's important for the sake of the record that we keep the questions and answers a little separate. Also allows Mr. Schroeter, in the event he has any legal objection to make, to make that objection. So what I would ask you to do, if you could, is to pause a little bit before you begin your answer at the end of my question, even though you probably will get a sense of where my question is going by the beginning of it. Will you try to do that? A. I w ill. Q. If at any time you want to take a break, just tell us that, and we. will certainly oblige you. A. Thank you. Q. I think Mr. Schoerter told us you're 79? A. I will be 79 on December 14. I was born December 1 S.-V'iDSS.S. GALE ?: ;VJ = SiU _ C _r ri ! i e<.1 c :: o; '-j _ r \ r : s : 10 1905. Q. With regard to the list of medications that Mr. Schoerter read to us a moment ago, do you believe, based on how you feel this morning, that you are able to give us your testimony here today? A. Yes, subject to tiring possibly, if it's a long, drawn-out question. Q. We will try not to make it long and drawn out. We will try to finish today certainly. A. Thank you. 0. Again, I want to reemphasize, we don't want you to get tired, and we don't want you to get fatigued by the process, and if it means taking breaks every hour, we will certainly do that; but you have to tell us that, sir. .A. I appreciate that. Q. Other than taking breaks, do you feel there is anything about the medication that you're presently taking which would affect your ability to either understand the questions or reply to them? A. No. 0. Are any of the medications, to your knowledge, the kind that would affect mental processes, your ability to think clearly? A. Other than tiring, I don'tthink so. Sa,'-!Di3S. GALti 2: n.'.iSii-L. C l. r ti t io u S t n o i v n c R >>' :' t> 1 11 2 Q, You feel reasonably well today? 3 J. I do. 4 Q. Clear-headed today? j 5 A. It's a relative term, but as clear-headed asever, j 6 Q. . .Let's starty if we can, by having you give us j i 7 a brief description of your educational background. j 8 A. I went to grade school and high school and college.] | 9 Q. Where did you attend college, sir? j 10 A. Harvard College. Q. What years? A. Graduated in 1928 with a Bachelor's. 0. Bachelor's degree in what? A. Science. & Any specific.discipline? 15 A. History, government and economics. 16 0. Do you have any post-graduate formal training? 17 A. I did some studying nights in accounting and I might 13 have -- yes, I studied one semester at Suffolk Law School in 19 Boston. 70 Ql After college, what was your first formal employment? 22 A. With the Flintkote Company in Boston. Q. What year was' that, sir? A. Late 1928 or early 1929. I'm not sure, but it was about then, the beginning of the year. v ;i.<: i < :i V -V 12 0. What was your first job with the company? A. My first job was office manager in the Boston office, which was then the home office of the Flintkote Company. Q. Jumping to the end of the story very quickly, if we might, when did you retire from any active work? A. I retired in August 196 9. 0. From what company did you retire? A. From the Flintkote Company. Q You were with the company approximately 40 years? A. Approximately 40 years. 0. As office manager of the home office in Boston, your first job now, going back to the beginning of the story, what were your duties and responsibilities? A. My duties were to supervise the running of the office, to hire personnel, to centralize"the filing'system, to centralize the stenographic department, to centralize the purchasing of all office supplies and equipment for the home office and all of the branch, offices. 0. At the time when you first joined the company, how long had the Flintkote Company been in business, to your knowledge? A. I believe the Flintkote Company was incorporated as such in 1902. h, 1 13 2 Qi At the time you joined the company in about 1928 V or 1929, what was the business of the company? I I A. The principal business of the company was the j 1 5 !j manufacture and sale of asphalt roofing. Secondary business ! i was the manufacture and sale of asphalt emulsions. j Qi Any other major product categories that you can I 8 j 9 J 10 ;; think of A. Q. j at this time? j I can't think of any other major ones at that time, j At the time when you first joined the company, did either the asbestos roofing products .'or the asbestos -- 12 asphalt, rather -- Let me start again. As of the time you first joined the company, did the asphalt roofing products contain asbestos, to your knowledg A. Not to my knowledge. lc Q. Same question with regard to the asphalt emulsion 17 products: did they contain asbestos? I j A. They may have. I don't know. 19 Q. Would it be fair to say that at the time you were the office manager at the home office your function was 21 primarily an administrative and internal function in terms of the running of your office? A. That's correct. Q. Did you have any duties or responsibilities at that time to have contact with the customers of the Flintkote 1 14 Company? A. No. I Q. How long were you office manager, sir? A. Until about 1932 or '33. Q. At that time, what job did you take? A At that time, I took the job of assisting the assistant treasurer with some of his real estate tax and insurance problems. ~ Ql Did you do that job in Boston? A. No. At that time, we had moved our offices to New York. Q. Can you generally describe what your duties and responsibilities were with regard to the real estate, tax and insurance problems that the treasurer had? A. I was in that job only a short time, and my principal duty was handling the settlement of some extensive fire and use and occupancy claims at two of our plants. Ql What was your next job after that? A. The next job was transferred to a subsidiary of the Flintkote Company. The name of that subsidiary was the Patent and Licensing Corporation. a Where was the Patent and Licensing Corporation located at that time? ( .j \ I 15 A. Its principal office was in New York. in Chicago and San Francisco. j It had offices j Q. For what period of time did you work for the Patent"and Licensing subsidiary? i A. Until the middle 1950's sometime. | Q. Approximately 20 years? ! A. Approximately 20 years. j ! Ql For ease of reference, can we say you were there ! from approximately 1933 to approximately 1955? A. Yes. Q. What were your duties and responsibilities if you j j only had one job -- if you had several, tell us about it -- with regard to the Patent and Licensing subsidiary?- A. My first job was assistant to the vice-president. , About 1945, I became the vice-president in charge of the Patent and Licensing Corporation. Q. You held that job until 1955 , approximately? A. That' s correct, until that corporation was dissolved. I think it was about that time. Q, As the vice-president of the Patent and Licensing subsidiary, what were your duties and responsibilities? A. My duties were to license our patents and protect our patents. Q. At the time that you became the vice-president of the 5A * C c r r i ; i -.1 16 Patent and Licensing Corporation in 1945, did the company at that time have any products in its product line which 1 | contained asbestos? . ! i A. The Patent and Licensing Corporation? j ! ' ! & No, theFlintkote Company. j i A. Yes. ! i j S Q. Do you know when for the first time the Flintkote j j - I | Company got into the business of selling products that j contained asbestos? A. I testified before that I wasn't sure whether there was asbestos in their asphalt emulsions. I am sure by that time there was. j Q. By "that time," you mean roughly 1945? A. Yes. And before that. In the middle 19 30's, the i " Flintkote Company started the asphalt shingle and siding business. That product contained asbestos fiber. 0. As part of your job in protecting the patents of the company, did you become familiar in the '30's and '40's ; with any of the technical aspects of the product of the company A. Only insofar as the patents related to those operations, certain of the patents. Q. I kind of get the impression that you were a person whose background was primarily in business and accounting; would that be a'fair statement, rather than 17 chemistry and engineering? A. That's correct. j I Q. To a certain limited degree, however, you did j developan understanding of the technical aspects of the J products as it related to the product's contents, for | I example? | A. By osmosis, I guess, I absorbed a little of it. Q. Did you personally participate in patent ! applications for certain products of the company that contained asbestos? A. Not to my knowledge, no. Q, In an organizational sense, Mr. Main, who did the actual work within the Patent and Licensing Corporation in terms of protecting the patents? A. We had two -- I had two patent attorneys reporting' to m e . : 0. That was at the New York City office? A. Yes. Q. It was their job to execute the legal work involved? A. Yes. A. Along with outside counsel. Q. Do you recall the names of the patent attorneys who were in house? A. Yes. We had one man named Olson, and we had a man SA'!<v2?5. 0 AJ_ C ertified - t i .- o i y p : A' p' ; 18 named Stearman. We had a man named Wiley and we had a man named Stewart. j Ql Regardless of whether you personally participated in the process, do you know whether, during your years with j the Patent and Licensing Corporation, certain products of the1 i company were patented that contained asbestos? A. I can't recall any offhand, no. i Qi At the time that you were involved with the Patent , and Licensing Corporation, did the company have either an engineering department or an engineering staff which worked with your patent people in the development of the information necessary to submit for patent? A. Yes. We had a research laboratory and, of course, we had an engineering department. Q. Where was the research laboratory located, sir? A. The research laboratory was first located at East Rutherford, New Jersey, and about 1945, it was moved to Whippahy,'New Jersey. Q. Can you tell me the names of any people who headed up the research laboratory during the years that you were with the Patent and Licensing Corporation? A. Yes. Dr. Kirschbraun was our first research director, followed by General Kabrick for a brief period. Q. Can you spell Kabrick? nnou cv*.*>: 19 A. I can't. K-a-b-r-i-c-k would be my guess. He wasn't there very long, and he was followed by Dr. McCabe, M^-c-C-a-b-e. He was followed by Richard Cubberley, C-u-b-b-e-r-l-e-y, and he was followed by Frank Califano, C-a-l-i-f-a-n-o. 0. If you can describe it in a general sense, what was the work of the research laboratory work dedicated to? A. It was dedicated to the development of new products to the improvement and perfection of existing products and the testing of products and product ideas submitted to the company for consideration. Q. Do you know whether any of the people you have listed from Dr. Kirschbraun to Mr. Califano are still living? A. Kirschbraun is dead, Kabrick I don't know, McCabe is dead, Cubberley is dead, and Califano is dead. Q. When you last knew of his whereabouts, what was General Kabrick located? A. General Kabrick came with us for a brief period after World War II. He had been with the U. S. -- with the U. S. Army. I don't know in what capacity and I don't know where he went after he left us. He was only there a short while. 0. To your knowledge, are there any people who worked in the research laboratory during the time that you were with 20 the Patent and Licensing Corporation that are still living, i that worked there in any sort of supervisory capacity? I A. There is a John Schmidt. I don't know what his capacity was in the research department." I haven't kept in touch with anyone else. I think he is still with the | Flintkote Company. I Q. Do you know where? I A. I think in New Jersey somewhere, if they have an office in New Jersey. 0. Do you have any idea when the research department was first created by the company? A. No. It was before I went with the company. Q. Before you joined them in 1928 or 1928? A. That's right. Q. At that time, there was already a research department in place? A. Yes. Q. Let's talk for a moment about the engineering department. During any of the years that you were with the Patent and Licensing Corporation, can you tell me who headed up the engineering department? A. I really can't remember offhand. I suppose if I thought about it Iona enough, I might remember some names, but before Califano, I can't remember who headed it up. 21 Q. If any names come to mind during the course of the day, would you tell us that, sir? j A. I will. ; 0. Where was the engineering department located? i A. Its last location was Whippany, New Jersey. that, it was in East Rutherford, New Jersey. Before; i j Q. During the years you were with the Patent & j _ j Licensing Corporation,' can you tell us- the number of patents, just an estimate, that were applied for an received by the company? A. We had hundreds of patents. Q. Of those patents that were applied for and received by the company, can you describe the general product categorie that those patents were in? A. Most of the patents related to asphalt shingles, and asphalt emulsions and dispersions of reclaimed rubber and their uses. Q. During the times that you were with the Patent & Licensing Corporation, do you recall any applications for patent for any asphalt roofing product? A. Yes. The Flintkote Company;held the original patent for the asphalt strip shingle. Are you familiar with what an asphalt strip shingle is? 0. No, s ir . 22 A. It's a shingle used on most of our houses today. It's a strip approximately 12 by 36 inches, the lower half of which is cut into shapes that resemble three shingles. The i top half is solid, very much like a separator in an egg crate; If you took that out, it would look like an asphalt strip shingle. ! The Flintkote Company had the original patent j on the asphalt strip shingle, and they had many patents on modifications of it, designs of it, improvements of it, and so on. Q. Did any of the patents that the company had with respect to asphalt roofing products refer to products that contained asbestos in their composition? A. Not to mv knowledge. Q. What else -- A. They may have, but not to my knowledge. Q. During the years that you were with the Patent & Licensing Corporation, do you recall any instances where the company attempted to patent a product which had as its significant feature the fact that it was an asbestos-free product? A. Not to my knowledge. Q. After the job with the Patent & Licensing Corporation ended, approximately the mid-'50's, what was your next job? 1 23 2 A. The next job was manager of the industrial 3 department. Let me modify that and say the industrial 4 | sales department. 0. In that capacity where did you do your work? A. I did my work first at 30 Rockefeller Plaza, New York. Later in East Rutherford, New Jersey. Q. How long, regardless of location, did you have 9 ;i that job? A. Until I retired in 1969. Q. So roughly '55 to '69? A. That's right. Q. As manager of the industrial sales department, in an organizational sense who did you report to up the line? A. I reported to the vice-president in that capacity, the vice-president in charge of sales. Q. Do you know the line below you who worked for you? I don't mean the names of the people but their job titles and categories. A. The manager of our railroad sales department, the manager of our paving sales department, the manager of our paper sales department. By "paper sales," I mean sales to the paper trade. A manager of our export department. How many have I got there? 0. Four. Railroad, paving, paper and export. 24 A. I think that's it as far as that job is concerned, j Q. Were your responsibilities nationwide? j A. No. East of the Rockies. All except the 11 western states, Hawaii- and Alaska. j 0. Was there another manager of the industrial sales j department for west of the Rockies, Alaska and Hawaii? ' A. I'm not sure how they were organized. That was j the pioneer division. I'm not sure how they were organized out there. Q. Did you have a counterpart in the western region who had essentially the same job as you but a different geographical location? A. I doubt it. I doubt it because we were organized a little differently in the East than we were in the West. A lot of their industrial sales were sold along with roofing sales. Q. When you were the manager of industrial sales, of the industrial sales department, was your employer the Flintkote Company? A. Yes. & So you were not at that time working for any subsidiary? A. Except the Patent & Licensing Corporation. Ql Did you hold those two jobs at the same time? 1 25 2 A. For a while. 3 Q. As the manager of the industrial sales department, t 4 what were your duties and responsibilities? 5 A. To supervise the work of the sales managers that I mentioned. 6 7 Ql Was this the only job that you had during all of B that 14-year period, approximately, from '55 to '69? A. No. In about 1959 or '60 I was given the job of 9 selling asbestos fiber for Flintkote Mines, Ltd., which was 10 a wholly-owned subsidiary of the Flintkote Company, and 11 made a vice-president of that company. 12 Q. So that from approximately '55 to '59 you were 13 only the manager of the industrial sales department for the 14 Flintkote Company? 15 A. And tailing out the Patent & Licensing Corporation 16 whose patents were expiring. 17 Q. That was on the way out? 18 A. Yes. They overlapped maybe to some extent. 19 0. From '59 to '69 you wore two hats, industrial sales 20 and vice-president of the Flintkote Mines, Ltd.? 21 A. Right, plus a few more hats. 22 Q. Let's talk about the hats. What other hats did you 23 wear and during what periods? 24 A. I was given a number of assignments toward the end 25 SANDERS. GALE ft RUSSELL Certified Stnotype Reporters 1 26 2 of my career. We were consolidating -- The Flintkote 3 Company was consolidating some of its operations. They were j i 4 closing some of their plants and they had a real estate < I 5 problem, and they gave me the job of disposing of their | 6 closed plants. j 7 Ql Approximately when was that, sir? i 8 A. That must have been between 1965 and 1969 . j 9 Qi We'll come back and talk about that in a few | 10 minutes. Any other major projects or jobs that you had in 41 that last 10-year period between -- 12 A. There may have been a few inconsequential things 13 like handling problems with rights of way of the roads and 14 so on through our properties and negotiating with zoning 15 boards of the towns and subdividing plans that we wanted 16 to sell. Special assignments of that type nobody else 17 wanted. 13 Qi As manager of the industrial sales department from '55 through 1969, did you have responsibility overall 19 for the sales of any products of the company containing 20 asbestos? 21 A. Would you give me the period again? 22 0. '55 to '69. 23 24 A. Yes. Some of our asphalt emulsions contained i;. asbestos. NK:<: if ; i cANDSSS. <S*. i C -jrrijied ? -v; 1 : r :c t :c u t 1 27 2 Qt Would that be in the paving sales category? 3 A. That would be in paving sales, railroad sales and i 4 general industrial sales. j 5 Oi Did the manager of general industrial sales report 6 to you as well? j 7 A. Yes, he did, too. I'm sorry I missed that. j 8 Q. Under the category of railroad sales, what product 9 groups would be listed under railroad sales? i j 10 A. Under railroad sales, we had principally a product ; 11 called car cements. That is a product that is used, to 12 protect the undercarriage of railroad moving stock, to prevent 13 it from abrasion, rust and so on. 14 We also had a product to coat the roofs of 15 railroad rolling stock, principally boxcars, and we also 16 had a product to line the interior of hopper cars to prevent ; 17 them from corrosion, abrasion and so on. And to the best % 13 of my recollection, some of those products did contain 19 asbestos. Q. During the years you were the manager of industrial. 20 21 sales, do you recall who the manager of the railroad sales 22 of the company was? A. Yes. 24 Q. Who was that, sir? A. Anthony Joseph Healey. SANDEHS. >JAi.E a SUS-sSLC ertified Sto!) 1 28 2 Q. Is Mr . Healey still with us? 3 A. No, Mr.Healey has departed. 4 0. Any other managers of that particular portion of 5 the business other than Mr. Healey during your years? 6 A. N o . 7 Q. With regard to the sales of railroad-related 3 products that you described to us, would it be correct to 9 say that you had responsibility only east of the Rockies? 10 A. Yes. 1! 0. Would that be true of all theproduct categories, 12 or did you sell any of them nationally? 13 A. We are now talking about the industrial department? li 0, No. Maybe I'm confused.' You told us, I think, 15 that you were the manager of industrial sales and that 16 certain managers reported to you, railroad, paving, paper, 17 export and industrial. 13 A. Right. 19 Qi I got the impressionthat yourresponsibility 20 was east of the Rockies. 21 A. Correct. 22 Ql My question is: For any of these product groups, 23 did you sell on a national basis? - A. It's possible that we sold paving products on a *3l national basis in cooperation with the Pioneer Division. By m\;Vi-rT;r; i SA.'iDSHS. GALI a JMJSSS'J-. C ertified S t- r,ocys i\*r .*'cr CC' NN nCTIC UT 1 2 "Pioneer Division 3 of the Rockies. :..J :-.-v > i o - AC^W^CC^-. '..!.;`a t i~ ;V:.v7r; ':' i; -' ;..=;': vv>') 4 Q. Was there some sort of either.formal.- or:'informli->^ ....-. , _ _V'V ` ; 5 division of the company sucH''toat\''tte:'.Pinerv'bivisio^^oo^|;?| ... :. ...";.'~ - \< .--.s;-;s'rV.-- ~ ,.X,rv f _^-1*"1.j/?. 6 care of-the western 11. states., :Alaska- and".-.Hawaii, .and.'the- . ''-r'r.r: --y. `yi'A'-t* :.:...> '/- . V * .:/ ? V ; l-S-V'*&.; 7 remainder of the comnanv tQok -'har.e'---o-vfr--~^e-^b,al..an?c:e''rk>f'r'-t.heT^-^*.i%' 8 . **- : '.. .`L- i-\ fyV' 9 fl. That was generally true. ;3There .were ;onefbt.tw7'?rt- J - * .... . _ .- ', - ,...; --s--1'- -. - f.V [ ' 'VV'iJ. 10 possible slight exceptions; where they didn'.t have _a product',7/ 11 we would, as I say, like paving, operate on a national.basis' , 12 with their coooeration and with them. " >" * ' tr''.'. Ql At the time that you were the manager of the 13 industrial sales department, can you list for us thWmagor. 14 manufacturing facilities that the company, had? i ~ 15 .. . . ... . .. - ( A .For which products?. ' . f. -r':7 16 " --~ ^ r;7_ Qi For the product line generally; how many ' " r '>7-7 17 manufacturing facilities did the company;have .at.that-: time^ - 13 between '55 and '69?. 19 -v " ' ^ . ' T . ^ 7 '-'-i A I 'm not clear about your question.' Do y o u mean 20 all the Flintkote products or just those'that I was involved;: 21 with? 22 - V -: ; ";'v Q. A good clarification. Just the ones you were , 23 involved in to begin with. 24 A. The ones that I was involved with we had a plant at 25 mastporo. rnsjNErTiri'T SANDERS. GALE & RUSSELL Certified Stnotype Reporters NEW HAVEN. CONNECTICUT 30 East Rutherford, New Jersey, a plant at Whippany, New Jersey, a plant at Lockport, New York, a plant at New Orleans, a plant at Chicago Heights, Illinois, and the Pioneer Division had a plant at Los Angeles, and maybe other places on the West Coast. Q. How many other plants, manufacturing plants, did the company have for products that you were not directly responsible for? A. You're going to tax me. I could recite a lot of plants and I probably leave out half of them. 0. Approximately how many -- A. There were so many.: .lines of business they were in. Q. Let's go back and talk about the paving sales. With regard to the paving sales category, what product groups would fall under that category, sir? A. Well, our principal paving products were rubber asphalt joint sealers, to seal the joints in concrete pavements and principally airport runways. Secondly, coal tar pitch emulsion coatings for asphalt, particularly airport runways and for driveways; and thirdly, we manufactured an asphalt emulsion product for a certain type of penetration macadam road construction for the Shell Oil Company. We manufactured the emulsion. We didn't build the roads. 31 Qt Did any of the paving products that you just mentioned, to your knowledge, the product categories, j contain asbestos? | | A. Yes, a few of them did, and I would have to -- Do you want me to explain how? Q. If you could briefly, sir. i | i j A. Well, if you are fixing up your driveway and there j ! - ! j are potholes in it and you first want to fill the potholes ; i before you resurface it, you would fill the potholes with a heavy material. That material, the paving material, would possibly ; contain asbestos to give it body. The coating product would not contain asbestos. j Q. .In the general categories that you gave us, joint sealers, coal tar emulsions and asphalt emulsion for the road,. ] i did those contain asbestos? A. No, not to my knowledge. .i ; 0. Going back up to the railroad sales product groups, to your knowledge, did the car cements contain asbestos for the undercoating? A. I believe so. I believe so. Q. How about the roof coatings for the rolling stock? A. They could. Ql The hopper car linings? 1 32 2 A. They could. 3 Q. The next major product category we had were sales i 4 to the paper industry. What product categories did Flintkote; 5 6 7 ) 3 | j I 9 ! 10 1; have that related to the paper industry? j I i A. We made an asphalt emulsion product which we ! | sold to the paper industry. The paper industry would put j | this liquid asphalt product: into the paper beater with their j paper mix to give it waterproofing -- moisture-proofing properties. They would also introduce it into their paper-making process between the cylinders on a paper-making machine in K> the form of a film with an applicator roll to insert a I waterproof film between the plys of paper. That product 14 :! ! would be used to make boxboard and products of that type. : Q. To your knowledge, did the asphalt paper emulsion 15 { j product contain asbestos? ! i 17 ! A. No, not to my knowledge. 13 ! j 19 ;; 0. Other than this emulsion, did the Flintkote Company . have any other products that related specifically to the 20 i paper industry? A. Not that I can think of. 22 Q. With regard to the export sales of the company, can you tell, me what major product categories were exported by the Flintkote Company? SAMOSHS. GALE : ~'J53c.LL Certified Stenotypc Report-:r: 1 33 2 A. We had a small export department that exported 3 principally asphalt emulsion products to the Caribbean 4 area, South America, and the developing countries of Africa. 5 We did not export elsewhere as we had a company 6 in London that handled the rest of the world. 7 Q. What was the name of that company? i S A. Flintkote Company, Ltd. 9 Q. Were any products of the company exported only -- 10 or to put that another way, were there any products of the 1i 1 company that were not sold in this country but were sold | overseas? 3 \\ 'i A. Not that I remember. 0- Lastly, with regard to industrial products, can 15 ;i you tell me what general product categories were included 16 :) in industrial sales? 17 i| I A. Principally asphalt emulsions and asphalt cutbacks 13 and colored coatings with asphaltic or resin bases. i 19 .j Q. When you use the term "cutbacks," what do you ;] 'J .] refer to? A H1 A. There are two ways to liquify asphalt. Three ways, i You can heat it, you can cut it back as we call it in the V'i ' vernacular with higher volatile materials, such as benzene, -4 kerosene and gasoline and so on, or you can emulsify it. Q. Into which of these major product categories would 'Tini S A i'iD S P .S . GALz. a := U.3-SLL C e rtifie d S te n o rv p c R rp ort?.** -N. CONN5CTCU' 1 34 2 list the roofing products of the company? 3 A The roofing product -- Where are we now? j 4 Q. Again we are still from. *55 to '69; you're still j 5 the manager of industrial sales, jiI 6 A You mean in industrial sales roofing products? 7 Q. Yes. 8 A, We have to distinguish between the liquid product 9 roofing products and-the asphalt shingles and roll roofings, j j 10 That's quite another kettle of fish. 1? Let's have the question again. 2 Q. Let's start with the liquid products. With regard 13 to the liquid products, which category of products that we 14 have talked about would those liquid products fall into 15 during the years that you were the manager of industrial ! 16 sales? i! 17 A I 'm still not sure that I understand the question. ; 13 MR, SCHOERTER: Are you asking him which 19 of the products he told us about qualify as liquid : 2G products? MR, SILBERFELD: Roofing products. 21 ^ **> A The roofing liquid products? 22 Q. Yes -54 A You want to knot,? what category the liquid roofing 25 products would fall into? SAi'iDERE, GALE A' AU33ELL, Certified Stcnotype Reporters 'IC 1 35 2 Qi Correct. 3 A. They would be liquid products -- I have 4 answered the question. Asphalt liquid products. j i 5 Q. With regard to this shingle and roll products, j 6 what category of product would they fall into? 7 A Well, we call those -- They would fall under 8 the building material products, the building material products, 9 which are so largely to the trade buyers and so on and 10 dealers and jobbers. Q. During the years you were the manager of industrial 12 sales, did you have responsibility for selling the building 13 material products? iI*j4 A. Only for export. Q. Who was your counterpart at the company during 15 those years that was responsible for the building material 16 sales? 17 A. Well, now, where are we going to start, what year? 18 Ql- When you started asmanager of industrial sales. 19 A. That would have been '55. 20 Q. Approximately. 21 A. The first manager would be Stewart Ralph. He was 22 followed by a man named Wittamore. He was followed by a man 23 named McDonald, and then I left. 2 j & Any of those three gentlemen still living, to your SANDERS. SALE & -rJSSELi. Certified Stenotypo Reporters j [ r.'VMvcrTTr: ;r 3 36 2 knowledge? 3 A. Ralph is not living. Wittamore is not living, but \ \ii ! 4 I would think that McDonald was still living. He may be j 5 retired by now or still with Flintkote. ! j 6 Q. Do you know his first name? I I ! 7 A. Yes. Just a minute now. We had several McDonalds.' i 3 Tom McDonald. j i 9 Q. Where did Mr. McDonald work out of when he was in 10 i| charge of building material sales? ^I51 A. He worked out of 30 Rockefeller Plaza. 12 !. 0. During the time that you were the manager of the n ! industrial sales department, did the Flintkote Company have 14 a line of floor tile products? 15 A. Yes, beginning in the middle 1940's they did. 16 ;! Q. When you were the manager of the industrial sales 17 department, did you have any responsibility for the sales is of floor tile made by the company? 19 :i A. Only for export. 2 0 -i Q. Would it have been the building materials department that had responsibility for sales of the floor tile domesticali A. No, they had a separate department for floor tile. 27 Ql Who was 'the head of that department while you were 22 the manager of industrial sales? A. Well, I believe the first man was a man named ci s a n o s s s . gals: c /'j p s s l l Certificai Ceno:ype Kt-porr r\A \ 'T.ViRU. t;ONM:0 I'iCi 1CJT  / V'YY^.-. : --./".*-"Y-.-:* ' ' ' '* > ' 1 - ...v * ... **v.i'* 2 Glatt, G-1-a-t-t-e, and then there was^-:^,,he;;:was.;: :.v :. ^ .#.*'-'-P'SVY'-'-i:Ji 3 by Harper, and I think he was followed by McDonaldf;whQ,J;^-^:$ V- : '' i: -/ a-;!Y 4 by that time, had been transferred from'building materials.;' Y t .0Y-Y.:YY Y Y ' v 5 to floor tile. Tom McDonald. 6 Q. Do you know- if. M r . Glatte or;'Harper are" 7 A. I don't know whether"Gltte;:is..;still-'.alive; 8 last I heard, Harper was still aliveV YrYY. . .-: . - /.-i-. 9 Q. Where was he when you last' heard. of; hi...,.. \ - - . 1; 10 A. He was in Orlando, Florida in the '.tile business vfM-V. 11 !! running his own company. il il 12 I 13 I1 i; 14 1 Q. Do you know the name of the company? A. No. It was a distributor of tile. V J . . . . . . . . . . . % ' - ' . . v . . - -- - . . . % - * . . -- v' . -v *: `A `V` ^w v --Y*'.'Y'*****'T*r" . '.* " - ' . . - , . V * Q. How long ago was that that you./.knew;him in 'thatli'^i Y/ - ,YYy Y Y y business? '> ...- r- 1 5 ii i ... *' < --.-*#>- A. I can't say the-last time I heard from him .11;. 16 17 j & Was it the' ^7Qis'or.:*60 13 i A. Oh, it would have been- the '70's 7 ..... ., . .'.y--.? '.y ... /-. .; /-/'j; 19 & In the same sense that your duties and .- ' ' ''' "'r responsibilities, Mr. Main, for industrial sales were:limited 20 ; ... *;* to east of the Rockies, except for isolated instances,, is itl 21 1 your understanding that the building material sales were 22 i j i also limited to east of the Rockies and that Pioneer took . . ! care of the West? 24 II i A. That's right. Y:/1 HARTFORD. CONNECTICUT SANDERS. G A L E & RUSSELL Certified Stnotype Reporters NEW HAVEN. CONNECTICUT. " 1 38 2 Ql Would, the same be true of the floor tile sales? 3 A, That's right, i 4 ij Q. So the Pioneer Division had its own building I _ |i o i! materials product line that took care of the Western j i United States; is that true.? I A. That's right, Qi The same is true of the floor tile, the Pioneer j Division had a floor tile plant? 10 A. Thatrs right, 0. I want to turn for a few moments to the job you had at Flintkote Mines. You took that on about 1959 or 1960? A. That's right. Q. Do you know who you suceeded in that job? A. I. know I succeeded as -- I 'm not sure. I think ^tor there was a little reorganization there. I would have to 17 kind of explain it to you. I can't answer your question. 18 Qi I would appreciate the explanation. 1? A. I will make it as concise as possible. 0. And yet complete. A. The Flintkote Mines was an adjunct to our purchasing and manufacturing operation. It was started in the mid-1940's and it came under the' general manufacturing manager who was responsible for manufacturing and purchasing, and reported to the executive vice-president. -Li' it i .CTICwT 1 39 2 The mine was run by the general manufacturing 3 manager and his subordinates and his staff. t 4 The executive vice-president who represented the ji 5 company on the board of the mine and also attended the I 6 meetings of the mine association, the mining association in I 7 Quebec, known as the Quebec Asbestos Mining Association. 3 Most of the fiber product by the mine was used by the company. Excess fiber and grades which were not 9 j 10 produced had to be sold. So the manufacturing manager, who was in charge of the mine, hired a man to sell the fiber. 11 As time went on, inventories of unsold fiber 12 were piling up. The executive vice-president decided that 13 the manufacturing department was not capable of selling 14- fiber, so they said "We got to get someone who is. We will 15 transfer the selling of the fiber away from the manufacturing ' 16 department and give it to someone we think can sell it," 17 and being a man of many hats and jobs, no one else wanted it, : 13 I got it. 19 So I reported to the executive vice-president on the 20 sale of fiber, but the operation of the mine was still the 21 function of the vice-president in charge of manufacturing. Q. I take it from that explanation,which I thank you for, by the way, that when you became a vice-president of 24 Flintkote Mines, Ltd., that was in essence a brand new position? ..... .-..v.,,, 5 4 NCOS. SALE ft hUSEcLL Certified Stonotvpo Rejr.rtera \..\v- \\Uv C- VS'tiCTICL-T 40 A. No. I think they had a vice-president before. I think our executive vice-president was also vice-president of the mine. Q. The executive vice-president of the Flintkote Company? A. Yes. He was also vice-president of the mine. Bearing in mind that the president of the Flintkote Company was also president of all of the subsidiaries at that time. Later I think they had presidents of some of the subsidiaries who were different than the president of the Flintkote Company. Ql Let's fill in some names to some of these titles if we can. When you became the vice-president of the mine company in roughly '59 or '60, who was the president of the Flintkote Company? A. I. J . Harvey. 0. Mr. Harvey from your explanation, I take it, was also the president of Flintkote Mines, Ltd.? A. That's correct. Ql Who was the executive vice-president of the Flintkote',Company at the time you became vice-president of the mining company? A. At that time I think it was George K. McKenzie. Q. Would it be correct to say that this notion of 1 41 2 dividing the mining operation from the sales operation was 3 Mr. McKenzie's brainchild? 4 A. He is the one who transmitted that information 5 to me, yes. 6 Q, And who was the vice-president of manufacturing 7 who had the responsibility for sales of this excess raw 8 material? 9 A. -A man named Evans. 10 Q. Mr. Evans still living, do you know? A. The last I knew he was. 11 0. Do you know where? 12 A. He was retired and living in Venice, Florida. 13 & As of what period of time did you have any 14 contact with him last, '80's, '70's, '60's? 15 A. '60's, early '60's. 16 Q. How about Mr. McKenzie? Do you know if he is 17 still living? 13 A. The last I knew he was. 19 Q. Do you know where? 20 A. He is living in New York City. 21 Q. How recent is that information? 22 A. I had a Christmas card from him. 23 S 4 Q. Last December? A. Last Christmas. SAHOSHS. '9.-i 42 Q. How about Mr. Harvey? A. Mr. Harvey is dead. Q. When you took over as the vice-president of ! i Flintkote Mines, Ltd., I take it that you were also still j i i an employee of the Flintkote Company? j ! A. That's correct. Qt Did you have any duties andresponsibilities with j regard to the mining company at thebeginning otherthan j the disposal of this ever-increasing inventory of unused raw fiber? A. No, other than the fact that I represented the company at the meetings of the mining association, the QAMA, Quebec Asbestos Mining Association. Q. When you had the job with the mine, this ran for approximately ten years, nine or ten years? ! A. Approximately. Q. During that time, other than representing the company at QAMA meeting and disposing of the raw fiber that was excess over the company's own needs, did you have any other duties and responsibilities specifically with regard to your job at Flintkote Mines? A. No. 0. At the time that you took over as vice-president of the mining company, I take it you reported up the line to 1 43 2 Mr. Harvey as president of the mining company? 3 A. No. My contacts with Mr. Harvey -- . By the way, 4 I'm not clear on the dates. This is close to the time we j i 5 had a change in our organization, and Mr. Harvey became ' j j 6 chairman of the board, and a man named Roe was president j | 7 for a short period of time, and after Mr. Roe, a man named | I 3 Pecaro was president. j 9 My contacts were always with the executive j 10 vice-president who was first Mr. McKenzie and then Mr. Moran, 11 after Mr. McKenzie left. I V 0. So that's who you reported to up the line? That's to how you reported up the line? U A. Yes. ]5 Ql Do you know the line organizationally who reported to you from the mining company? 15 A. Mr. Koehler, K-o-e-h-l-e-r, who was the fiber 17 sales representative. 13 Ql Would it be correct to say, Mr. Main, that you had 19 no responsibilities for the mining operation itself? 20 A. That's correct. 21 TO Q. That was still under the vice-president of manufacturing? . w A. That's correct. 24 0. Was Mr. Koehler the only fiber salesman that reported Sr :*n-.rvn4* Rrrh 44 to you during the roughly ten-year period that you were involved with the mining company? A. That's correct. Q. Is he still living, to your knowledge? A. No, he is not. (X Do you know with regard to your representation of the company at QAMA meetings how long the company had been a member of QAMA? - A. I don't know how long they had been a member. 0. Do you know who had represented the company at such meetings prior to the time that you began doing that? A. Mr. McKenzie. Q. At the time you began attending such meetings, approximately how many members of QAMA were there? A. You want the number? I have to almost name them if I can think of them. Do you want the names of them? Q. Sure, if you can. A. We'll start at the top, Johns-Manville, Asbestos Corporation, Lake Asbestos, the Bell Mine, Carey Canadian Mine, National Asbestos. I'm getting down to the little fellows now. Flintkote and Nicolet. I think that's all. Q. When you characterize certain companies as largerthan others, with what frame of reference do you do that, sir, sales, tonnage or what? 45 A. I -believe our dues were assessed on the basis j of tonnage. Whether it was tonnage mined or tonnage billed, j I'm not clear, but it was roughly on the volume produced. ; iiI Q. In addition to representing the company at QAMA I I i meetings, did you ever serve as an officer of that j org**anization? i A. I was a director. j i! Ql During wEat period of time, sir? j A. I would say most of the time that I was there, which would be roughly ten years, perhaps. Q. Had Mr. McKenzie been a director before you? A. Yes. Q. In addition to being an attendee at meetings and serving as a director, did you ever serve on any special committees? A. No. a In terms of the structure of QAMA for the ten-year period that you were involved, did it have standing committees? A. Yes. Q. Can you name any of those? A. Well, I'll try. Ibelieve they had a technical committee, a publicity committee, a tariff committee, a traffic committee, and a safety committee and perhaps others. I can't 1 46 2 remember them all. 3 Q. Did the Flintkote Company or Flintkote Mines have 4 employees of the company serving on any of the committees 5 you just named? 6 A. Yes. Our mining manager prior to the penultimate ' ! 7 mine manager was head of the technical committee. ! i i 8 Ql Who was that? 9 A. Fred Hodgson, H-o-d-g-s-o-n. 10 Q. He was second to the last mine manager? 11 A. Yes. 1Xn Q. Who was the last one? 1 0 A. Dalma Poirier. l-i Ql Mr. .Hodgson served as head of the technical 15 committee. Do you know if any representative of the 16 company served on the publicity committee? 17 A. I don't believe so. 1 r' 0. How about the safety committee? 40 19 A. I'm not sure. 20 Ql At the time that you began attending OAMA meetings, 21 was there a file kept at your office or Mr. McKenzie's *V*i office or somewhere at Flintkote Mines that related to any minutes or publications of QAMA that had come out before you took over? A. I don't know before I took over. I don't know. Coni/ievi u t . cr; 47 Q. Do you' have a recollection of ever reviewing any files and materials that were in existence at the time you became the vice-president of F-lintkote Mines, specifically j relating to QAMA at its prior meetings before your joining i the company? ! . i(I MR. SCHOERTER: You mean j.n existence j within the Flintkote Company or within Flintkote i Mines? - | MR. SILBERFELD: Yes. Q. Do you understand the question? A. Let's have it again. Ql What I am getting at is this: When you became -- Let me approach it this way: When you became the vice-presiden of Flintkote Mines, did you have a particular office somewhere where you did that job? A. I handled it from my own office. Ql Did Flintkote Mines, Ltd. have offices somewhere? A. Flintkote Mines, Ltd. had offices at the plant. Q. That was at Thetford Mines? A. Yes. Ql Did you ever visit those offices? A.. Yes. Ql On any of those visits when you first took on the job, did you review any files that the company had at that S;iNCE3S. Ccrti/ie 1 S r. ,V !:}2 Z V . 48 time relating to QAMA and the meetings of that organization? A. I don't think so, no. Q. When you first started attending QAMA meetings yourself, did you have a habit or practice of reviewing the minutes that were generated from that organization? A. I don't think so. . & Did you have a habit or custom of reporting to anyone either down the line or up the line of any developments that occurred at any of the QAMA meetings that you attended? A. Yes. Q. What was your habit? A. Usuallyverbal, perhaps sometimes written of things which I thought might be of interest to that person. 0. When you first became vice-president of the mining company, do you know approximately what the size of the raw material inventory was? A. No. I do know we had a limited capacity in the warehouse and the warehouse was bulging at the seams and we were renting warehouse space to store the rest of the fiber. I can't tell you now from memory how many tons it was, no. 0 Were you -- -1 49 2 A. Considerable inventory. i\ 3 & At the time you became vice-president of the j 4 mining company, do you have any estimate as to the percentage' i 5 of total fiber produced by the mine that was used by the 6 company as distinguished from excess that was sold? | i / A No, I have not. I can't tell you what.the ; 3 balance was between the production capacity of the mine t ! 9 and Flintkote's use of fiber. I can't remember that. ! Q. Do you know if Flintkote's use was greater or less than 50 percent of the total, if you have any idea? 12 A. I would think Flintkote's use would be greater 13 than 50 percent of the total. Q. Greater than 75 percent? 14 15 | A. I can't tell you that. Q. Mr. Main, at the time that you became the vice- 16 president of the mining company, did the mine produce different grades of raw material? 13 ! 19 !! A. Yes. or. Q. Can you describe to us the grades of raw material that were produced by the mine? i l A. We produced grade four fiber, grade five fiber, grade six fiber, grade seven fiber, and shorts. fj Q. Shorts? A. Shorts. Shorter than grade seven. C ' . T t i ii ei s t i n o f - p . * tf-jr.-nTcrs 1 50 2 & What did the various grades refer to, the numbers? 3 4 I 5 6 7 8 9 | ! to !; A. Well, fiber is graded by a standard test known | as the Quebec standard test. I'm going to try to tell j i you what it is, if you are interested. I i Q. Certainly. j j A. The Quebec standard test consists briefly of j I taking a pound of fiber and vibrating it through a series | of screens, and when a different quantities -- when different; quantities, the ounces that stays on each screen, the number . ^it four -- well, there are higher screens than four, but the 12 four screen, the five screen, six screen, this is mesh, ip size of mesh, and the fines is what is left over. 14 ' And grade four fiber would have so many ounces 15 of this and that, and so on. That's essentially what the -- 16 } as I remember, what the Quebec standard test was, and that ;i 17 ; is the test that's used to classify fiber, how much is left 13 j on each of those screens. Q. Is it correct that certain grades of fiber were 19 used for certain types of asbestos-containing products? J A That's correct. z i Q. Was there a grade one, two and three? A. Well, the higher grades I'm not too familiar with because our mine and our mine body was.such that we didn't have those higher grades. They are sometimes referred CTz r t i i i c d S t e n p _ ;;i 51 to as the spinning grades. Whether they are called one, two and three or not, I don't know. But of the grades which are -- the ore body produced were between four and seven and what was left over were the fines. Q. What were the shorts? A. The shorts are what's left over after the last screen. Ql As an example, do you know what grade of raw-, material Flintkote used in its floor tile product? A. Grade seven. Q. Do you know what grade of raw material Flintkote used in its asphalt shingle roofing product? A. I'm not sure that Flintkote used asbestos fiber in their asphalt shingle roofing products. Q. Are you aware of any insulating materials that i were manufactured by others other than Flintkote that used raw asbestos in the formulation of product? A. Am I aware of grades made by others? Q. No. Are you aware that companies other than Flintkote made insulation materials such as pipe covering or block material that contained asbestos? A. Yes, I'm aware that othe'rs did. Q. Do you know what grades of asbestos were used by other companies for their insulating materials? 52 A. I can't tell you what they did, no. I'm not familiar with that field. Ql With regard to the grade four raw material which Flintkote produced out of its own mine, do you know what product categories, if any, Flintkote used the grade four material for? A. Yes. They used grade four material in asbestos cement pipe. 0. Just so that I get a general understanding of the grading, is the lower number the finer material or the higher number? A. The lower number is the finer material. 0. Generally, again, what was the grade five material used for by Flintkote within Flintkote? A. Asbestos cement siding. Q. Grade six? A. The same. Q. Grade seven? A. Floor tile and liquid products. (Recess taken.) BY MR. SILBERFELD: Q. Mr. Main, while we took a break, we were having some conversation about one of the questions I had asked you earlier about the maning of the grading numbers. 53 Is it true that the higher the number the shorter the fiber length? A. That's right. The seven is a: shorter fiber..- j i than the.six and six is shorter than five, five shorter !I j than four and so on. | ! Q. At the time that you were the vice-president of i the mining company, Mr. Evans was in charge of the j ii manufacturing of Flintkote Company; correct, the. vice-president of manufacturing? A. When I first went -- Yes, at first. Qi He also wore a second hat and he was in chargeof the mining operation of the Flintkote Mines; is that correct? A. The mining company came under Evans. He was a director of the Flintkote Company, he was vice-president in charge of all production and manufacturing and as such, all of our mining operations, whether it be gypsum or asbestos or whatever came under his control. Now, he had a staff, certain ones assigned to certain projects, manufacturing, mining project. Cl Like the mine manager would report to him? A. The mine manager would report to him. & Did Mr. Evans, in addition to being vice-president of manufacturing of the Flintkote Company, have a title or an officership in the Flintkote Mines, Ltd. company? 54 A. Not to my knowledge, no. Q. During the years that you were vice-president of ! i Flintkote Mines, are you aware as to whether or not the ' j Flintkote Company ever purchased raw fiber from any other asbestos producers in the Quebec area other than what it i got from its own mines? i j A. Yes. I il i Q. Do you know the names of any of the companies j that it purchased raw fiber from during the ten-year period you were involved in? A. Yes. Q. Can you name them for us? A. Purchased fibers.from Johns-Manville, they purchased fibers from Asbestos Corporation, they purchased fibers from Carey Canadian Mines, and they may possibly have purchased some from others, including Lake Asbestos. 0. With regard to purchases made by the Flintkote Company from other asbestos-mining: companies, did these other companies, such as Asbestos Corp., have grades of asbestos similar to those that the Flintkote mine produced, namely, four through seven? A. Yes. Q. Did those companies also mine raw material that was of different grades than that mined at the Flintkote mine? 1 55 2 A. Some of them, yes. 3 Q. Which ones? I 4 | A. Well, I'm not familiar with the operations of these; j 5 f other mines, but I do know that they had other grades that j i I i 6 ! we did not have. j i 7 Q. I take it those other grades were necessary for j 8 ! certain Flintkote manufacturing operations? ; 9 1 10 A. Not necessarily. Different -- There are different: characteristics to the same grade of fiber. Some fibers are : more open than others because of the way the fiber lies in the ore body. Fibers lie in an ore body either vertically or 14 ' horizontally. The horizontal fibers are called slip fibers. 15 :! They are not as apt to be as open as the vertical fibers. :i 16 :j Some fibers have different color, characteristics than others. ; 17 i! So it's quite possible that one mine's fiber might be more suitable for a particular use than the same grade 19 1 of fiber, grade being the length, the screening test, than another mine's fiber. 21 So it's common for companies to both produce their own requirements and buy requirements from another mine. 0. Going to the flip side of the question I just asked about Flintkote purchasing from other asbestos producers, when you first became the .vice-president of Flintkote Mines O ) CONN2C 56 and you had this inventory of raw material that had to be sold and that was your charge to sell it, do you know who you sold the fiber to? j j A. Yes. | Ql Who was that, sir? itt A. Well, my philosophy of selling -- MR. SCHROETER: He didn'task you about j philosophy. - . | A. I sold to Johns-Manville, I sold to Asbestos Corporation, I sold to the Philip Carey Company and among the other mines. Do you want to know the customers we sold to? Q. Let's take it in categories. There were mining customers that you sold to and then nonmining customers, manufacturing customers. ; A. Take the mining companies. I sold to all those ; mining companies that-sold fiber to Flintkote Company. Q. That was your sellingphilosophy? A. I can answer that yes, that was my selling philosophy. It kept down sales expense. Q. With regard to the nonmining customers for this raw material inventory that you had on your hands at that time, who did you sell to? A. Our largest customer was in Japan, a trading company 57 known as Ataka, A-t-a-k-a. I would think our second largest customer would j have been Flintkote Company, Ltd., who had the distribution of our fiber in the United Kingdom. [ We also made spot'sales to Poland, to Spain, perhaps some to France, and we had a few small customers I in the United States. ; i | - Q. During your ten years, approximately, as vice- president of sales of the mining company, did you develop any other major customers for raw material other than those that you have already described? A. Didn't I answer that question? You asked me who our principal customers were, and I gave you that list. What's the-followup question? 0. My original question was: When you first became vice-president and you had this inventory, who did you sell to, and you listed those. My question now is: For the remainder of your time as vice-president, that roughly ten-year period, did you develop any other major customers for the raw material inventory of the company other than what you already described? A. Some of those that I already described became our customers after I became vice-president. They weren't all our customers the day I became vice-president-, but they became SA.MOSSS. GALE ~ Ccrcnicu o*c;ic i y r - s . c yr `r. i'' 1 2 our customers during my' tenure 3 them. 4 -- ` - V _ , V : I - l/f.i . / A '( , j 'f - * I can't tell you which ones we had when I went -Y' 5 in and which ones we devel-oopead..', . Q. Can you estimate for., us what percent^ge^'pf^e|v^ & 6 7 raw material inventory 'that `you*had:-.:tb ^sel-i'waa^s^ids.rto-i^e^-'tiJ* % -,~v-~ _ -V, ~J*rT4 , v . .</. - J--r +,* i 3 9 A. I can't give you that percentage.. .1 can,'t remember 10 i| it. I might have known it at one time. . a 11 Q. Do you have an impression in your .mind whetherit V; 12 I was more or less than 50 percent of the^inventoryTMthat-i ,3 ! ii you had to sell? 14 I t ' . , ` A. Maybe 50 percent. i'r\ ~ 15 ! 16 I i 17 :Ii 13 a At the time that you became the/vice-president , . _ - / . of the mininq company, did you have an.opportunity_to^seei^^l any of the mining operations taking, place at .the Thetfor<>v^v\. mines in Quebec? .. 19 A. Yes 21 ! o. On j observe that? 22 11 ! 1 23 1 A. Oh, 2 4 11I & The outdoors , is HAP.TFORD, CONN ECT1CUT SANDERS, GALE & RUSSELL Certified Stnotype Reporters NEW HAVEN. CONNECTICUT 59 A. Right. Ql As I understand it, there is also a milling operation A. That'svright. j Q. And that milling operation is done indoors; is that! correct? A That's right. Qi Is that, at least as of the time that you observed ! i it, was that milling operation in an enclosed building or just a covered area that was outdoors? A. I believe both. Q. I take it you had an opportunity to observe the milling operations as well? A. Yes. Qi In a very shorthand way, would you describe what you observed about the mining operation? A. Well -- MR. SCHROETER: When he says "very short," you make it very, very short. A. We had what is known as an open pit mine as opposed to an underground mine. An open pit mine is like a quarry as you know it. And to mine an open pit mine, you have various benches. Those are levels, and you cut back a roadway going down to the various levels where the ore body is. 60 With the pneumatic hammers and pneumatic drills and so on you dig out the ore from the side of the hill j into sizable, handleable sizes, and we loaded it on a skip j j hoist and took it up out of the pit, loaded it onto cars and j i | took it from the cars to the mill to be ground by hammer j mills and grinding equipment and so on into smaller portions.! j The milling is a series of grinding and screening and grinding and screening and so on, until at the end of the process you have about 150 tons of fiber for every ton of ore that you mill. So you get about -- What's that? Seven and a half percent. Q. You didn't mean to say 150 tons per ton; you meant 150 pounds? A. 150 pounds for every ton. Yes. 150 pounds for every ton. 150 tons a day was our capacity. We had 2,000 tons of ore to produce 150 tons of fiber. That's essentially it. Then you screen it and bag it into the various categories, fours, fives, sixes and sevens. Q. Did you have an opportunity over the course of the ten years that you were vice-president of the mining company to see the mining operation at various times? A. I don't think I ever went down into the pit more than 1 61 2 perhaps once. 3 Ql Did you ever see the mining operation ongoing at I 4 any of the competitors of the Flintkote Mines, Ltd.? j j 5 A. Yes. I visited the Jeffery Mines of Johns-Manville| j 6 on one occasion. I j 7 Q. Was that an open pit or underground? I j 3 A. That was an open pit mine. j 9 0. What other mines did you visit? 10 A. I might have -- I think I went on one occasion i; to ithe -- one of the mines of Asbestos Corporation. 12 Q. Was that an open pit type? 13 A. Open pit, also. 0. During any of the visits that you had to mining 14 operations, did you notice whether the mining operation 15 produced any visible dust? 16 A. The mining operation produces the same amount of 17 dust as any quarrying operation would where you are breaking 13 up rock with pneumatic drills, yes, but it's in the open 19 air. 20 n i Ql It did produce visible dust? . A. Yes. 22 Q,- Did you ever form an impression in your mind as 23 to whether or not any of that dust contained asbestos fibers? *5 A. Not particularly, no. :isc'i C crn f h AL "t i c: n c ' 1 62 2 Q. During any of the visits that you made to the 3 Flihtkote mine and observed the mining operation, did any 4 of the workers involved in the mining operation wear any 5 form of face protection? 6 A. Yes. They wore respirators. 7 Ql Do you know what type of respirators they wore, j i 8 sir? j 9 A. No,w I don't. | ~ !] io & Were they the type of respirators that were simply ' i i some sort of face covering as distinguished from a respirator 12 : that had an airline attached to it? 13 ' A. I don't really recall, no. 14 ' Q. To your knowledge, were all of the workers involved 15 j in the : 16 j them or 17 :l A. I can't remember. 1 13 i Q. 1 19 ij or not Do you have an impression in your mind as to whether involve1 21 of material up to the mill or both? 22 A. I 'm sure the ones involved with the chipping of the 22 rock were, and I'm not too sure about the ones transporting 2 4 it. Q. On those occasions when you had the opportunity to .. i r;.-< C e m H c - .t S ttfn o ;v rv .r :-:n.cpNNcnan 1 63 2 observe the mining operation a.t the Flintkote mine, were 3 you able to observe whether the transportation of the raw j j 4 material from the mine to the mill produced visible dust? ; II 5 A. I don't recall any dust in the transportation. j j 6 Q. Going to the milling operation, grinding and ; i 7 screening and grinding and screening that you previously i 3 described to us, did that operation at the times that you j 9 observed it at Flintkote *oroduce visible dust? I! i 10 A, Yes, there was visible dust in that. That is 11 particularly when X first observed it. 12 Ql Did you form an impression in your mind as to whether 13 the milling operation released asbestos in this dust that i - was visible? 15 A. Well, there was dust. ; 16 Qi Did any of the workers that you observed in the 17 milling operation of Flintkote, when you first observed it, 13 wear any sort of face protection? 19 A. Yes. 20 Ql Same type of respirators as we already described? 21 A. I suppose so. I didn't particularly pay any attention to it. 0. When you observed these operations ongoing, were 2J you wearing a respirator? A. N o . - HAr.T~'KL>. i'K., I SANDERS, i iyy-XZV. C e r t i f i e d S n d c y t e ^ ~ n 5 N *' A.t'1 j CONNECTICUT 1 64 2 Q. To your knowledge, did the milling operation have 3 any sort of ventilation equipment operating at the time that i I 4 the milling operation was going on? 5 A. Yes. As time went on, more and more ventilating I i 6 t and suction and aspirating equipment was installed 'at | those dusty operations. In my last visit it was clipped : 8 as clean as a hound's tooth. j i 9 1 Q. That would have been at the end of your tenure? A. Right. Ql Would that condition at the end of your tenure 12 be different from what it was when you first observed it in the late '50's or early '60's? A. Well, when first observed it was before the 15 i! '50's and '60's. It was on a trip to the mine while I was :i !i on vacation just as a visit, as a visitor. That's when I 16 jj observed the dusty operation, and the following time, I don't : i is :l know when it was, it was very much improved, and toward the i end, it was a pretty clean operation. 19 1 Q. When was it chat you visited the mine as part of your vacation? 21 A. I would say in the late 1940's. Do you know whether you ever visited the mine after that time but before you became the vice-president of the mining operation? O O I ICA Cc; i Si i n(' i t:r? 'NEC :c c r 65 A. No, I didn't. Ql When you visited it in the late '40's, your impression was that it was a dusty operation both in mining and in milling? A. Yes. Q. And that by the late '60's, when you retired, at least in the milling operation, the dustiness was much improved? A. Very much improved. Q, When you were there in the late '40's, was this the instance that you described to us earlier where respirators were being worn? A. Yes. Q. By some of the workers both in the milling and in the mining? A. Yes. Q. At the time that you visited there in the late '40's, did you have an opportunity to observe the bagging or packaging portion of the operation? A. Yes, I went through the entire operation. I was conducted through the entire operation. Ql Can you tell me what type of container the raw material was put into at the time of your visit in the late '40's? 66 A. Burlap bags. Q. What color were the bags? A. Burlap bags. & Burlap color? A. Yes. & Did the burlap bags have a label on them? A. I can't tell you that. I don't know. & When you visited the mine in the late '50 early '60's, when you first became vice-president, did you have an opportunity to observe the packaging? A. Yes. Q. Was it still being packaged in burlap bags at that time? A. Paper bags. 0. What color was the paper ? A. Craft color. o. Brown? A. Brown. o. Did the paper bags have labels? A. I can't tell you. I don't know. & When you observed the packaging of the raw material in the burlap in the late '40 's, did that specific function produce visible dust? MR. SCHROETER: What function? The burlap -- 1 r 2 MR. SILBERFELD: 67 The loading of material into 3 ; a bag. 4 !' A. I don't recall that specific operation at that time . * i I no. j i1 6 Qi By the time of your retirement in the late '60's, | i I 7 was the packaging of the raw material that was being done j i at the Flintkote mines still using paper bags? i i 9 !i A. Yes. I I Qt When you became the vice-president of the mining company, did you learn at that time what modes of shipment or methods of shipment were used to deliver raw material to v? the customers of the company? A. The bags of finished fiber were trucked from the mill to a railroad siding, loaded in boxcars and shipped to the customer. i i 17 Q. At the time of your visit in the '40's, when you saw the burlap bags being used, do you know how those bags !0 were sealed? 1 A. No, I don't. Q. How about the paper bags you saw in the '60's? A. I don't know how they were sealed. They were sealed. Q. As part of your 'duties as a representative of the company to the QAMA, did you ever participate in any discussions having to do with the packaging of raw material in an effort : i f i c i 5 ty ;? :CJ7 68 to reduce dust created either by the packaging or unloading of the material from the container? A. No. | Q. Do you know if any recommendations or recommended | practices were ever developed by QAMA for mining operations ! i that would reduce dust in the packaging or unloading of raw i i material? j ! A. They had a committee, either the technical committee i or another committee on packaging, that discussed this subject at length. I'm not aware of any of the details of those discussions, but as an association, they were always trying to improve their packaging, but I'm not aware of the nature of their discussions, plans. Q. As part of your duties as an attendee at QAMA meetings, do you recall any discussions at any time about the need for wearing face protection either in the mining or the milling operations? A. I don't recall, but as I say, they had these committees like the safety committee who were always keeping the fellow members up to date with the latest in safety devices in the mill in all respects. Q. I get the impression, Mr. Main, from your testimony that there was a steady improvement in the dust control methods that were employed by the company at its mining operations in S, U 69 Canada. A. Quite noticeably. i Qt What, to your knowledge, was the impetus for that ' i steady improvement in dust control measures? ! I A. Well, I don't know what the impetus was other than ; i J the constant desire of any company to improve their working j conditions for their workers. j _ II Q. Was there a concern on the part of the company i i that you became aware of at some point that exposure to dusts could be hazardous to the health of the workers? A. . What's that question again? (Question read.) A. By the company, whom do you mean? Q. The Flintkote Company. ; A. Flintkote Company mines, Flintkote Company? Q. Both. A. Well, I think to any individual or to any company there is always an awareness that breathing dust is not the most desirable form of oxygen to take into your lungs. I'm sure. I don't know what the company felt and I don't know what the individuals in the company felt, but the actions of the company were that they were always trying, constantly trying, to reduce the hurt, the dust hazard in any part of the work area anywhere. Ccr t i r i - ' u >: z - -c? 7 1 70 2 Q. At some point in time did you personally, Mr. v. 3 Main, not the company or anybody else, become aware of a 1 ! 4 concern that a health risk existed for workers exposed to ! 11 5 asbestos dust? A. Me personally? 7 (X Yes, when did you personally first become aware j '3 of that? J9 i A. The first time I became aware that asbestos dust ! might be hazardous was in the mid-1960's, I would say, when 1i I read in The New York Times about some studies that had 12 ;j been made by a Dr. Selikoff of Mount Sinai Hospital on o 13 ;j work that he had done in studying the case histories of some 14 shipyard workers, I think in the New York or Brooklyn area, and that's the first time I thought there might be a serious 15 i 16 ;} dust problem to asbestos dust. 17 :| Ql At the time you personally first learned that there might be an asbestos health hazard associated with the 13 ` breathing or inhalation of the asbestos dust, was it your 19 : i understanding that the only class of worker involved was a shipyard worker? MR. SCHROETER: Just a moment for clarification, that the only worker involved in Selikoff's studies ' or the only worker involved in the general family of people that might have a hazard from asbestos? 5Ar!0R5. CALi Cs .VJHl'ii-u Certified Ste-Mt Upo-t .-.-n c ;< eNSHC T 1 2 M R . SILBERFELD: . .The*former../ : 3 MR.. MOHER: Could I have,'the qualifications'.^! : - '. . - , , . . . :-A - ' - ' .. V'j^v 4 read back? ' - V .Y - ;/' -v-' > 5 MR.. SILBERFELD : Let nierestate.the ..question^ 6 BY MR. SILBERFELD 7 . - , ql y 8 9 person 10 distinguished from other n MR. SCHROETER: The class of persons in 12 Selikoff's study? 13 MR. SILBERFELD: From what 14 A. I think I was personally -alerted /that vgeneraily^l^ .;. " Y` :Y'--Y . MR. SCHROETER `` " 1 " ^'"Y-u 15 your understanding!' was' of /t^e ;kind. oft.p 16 -.: _.. ; :'j: 17 Selikoff studied,, were they 18 did vou'understandYYYiYt. 19 A. Shipyard workers, yes. 20 Q. At the time you read about Dr. Selikoff's-work,-YY;: 21 did you form an impression in your mind as to whether any..oth: 22 class of worker other than shipyard workers would be at risk-, 23 for these health effects associated with asbestos exposure? 24 A. Well, I don't recall what my trend of thought was' 25 HARTFORD. CONNECTICUT SANDERS. GALE & RUSSELL Certified Stnotype Reporters NEW HAVEN. CONNECTICUT 72 at the time or reading that article, it's so long ago, but at least I pricked up my-ears. Q. In addition to pricking up your ears, did you report this news that you had heard to anybody at Flintkote? A. As I recall, I cut that article out of the paper and icrculated it to the men whom I reported to. Ql At that time were you still reporting to Mr. McKenzie? A. I don't know. At that time it might have been Mr. Moran. I can't tell from the dates. I can't remember when the transition took place between Moran and McKenzie, and I can't tell when I read the article, but let's say in the mid-1960's, and I reported it to whoever was the executive vice-president at the time. Ql Did you report it down the line to anyone who had the responsibility to report to you? A. No. I don't recall everything. I may have mentioned it, but I don't recall having sent that one article to more than one person. Ql Do you recall whether you personally did anything in response to hearing about Dr. Selikoff and his work other than circulating the article to your boss? A. I can't remember at this time whether I did. I may have. Jcrtiti-.'.i > : j r . c f ' ..c-n.'.rt : r 73 Ql Do you know whether your sending the article to your boss prompted some action on their/part that you j later learned about? i A. I don't, know. j Qi As far as you know, once having sent the article 1 i to the person you were reporting to, was that the end of the j matter as far as you know? i! A. As I recall it, the_next meeting I attended of the ! QAMA the subject'was discussed. Q. Is that the next time it came up? A. As far as I recall it. It may have come up in between, but I do recall it came up at the next meeting. Q. Would that have been roughly within a year of the time that you read this article? A. Oh, probably less than that. Qi Within that period? A. Yes. Qi What was the substance of the discussions at the Q.AMA meeting? A. Well, most other people had read the article, also, and I can't tell you what was discussed about it, pros and cons, but I'm sure there were some pros and cons and limitation on the type of people who were exposed to it and conditions under which they were exposed at that time. j/ i 74 Q. Do you recall any discussions at the time of that QAMA meeting about the applicability of Dr. Selikoff's findings to mining and milling operations? A. N o . Ql Did you ever concern yourself at the time you first j learned about Dr. Selikoff's findings as to whether or not j Flintkote employees in the mining and milling functions j i t were at risk for similar health effects because of their j j work with asbestos? i A. No, I didn't concern myself with that because, as I told you previously, we had our men using respirators. Q. At any time during the time that,you were the vice-president of the mining company, did you have any duty or responsibility with regard to the safety or health and welfare of the mining and milling employees? A. N o . Q. Would that have been the manufacturing vice-president responsibility? A. That's right. Q. Was there a separate safety director for the mine? A. I don't know. Q. Do you know if there was a medical officer or medical director or hygienist of any kind employed at the mine? A. I don't know. 1 75 2 Q. At the time that you first learned about the 3 Selikoff findings, did you become concerned at all as to | 4 whether or not those findings were applicable to Flintkote j ! 5 employees who worked in Flintkote manufacturing operations ! j{ 6 that concerned themselves with asbestos? j 7 .... A. No, not particularly. 8 Q. In the 12-month period, let's say, following the 9 time that you first learned about Dr. Selikoff's findings, 10 did you hear from any sources within the Flintkote-Company that a review was being conducted or an investigation or analysis was being conducted to determine whether those findings were applicable to mining and milling employees? 14 A. No, I can't remember that. Q. Do you recall whether any such analysis or review 16 of the applicability of the findings was ever done specifically 17 with regard to manufacturing employees that worked with 13 asbestos? I can't remember that. MR. SCHROETER: For clarification, Counsel, do your answers mean that maybe such reviews and fO analyses and studies were made -- maybe they were Is3 T! not made, you don't know? THE WITNESS: I don't know whether they were or not. :MDER: GALE i T' ELL r: itio1 tj r or ; ->o Re -r .*r n n e c t ic l t 76 BY MR. SILBERFELD: 0. You don't know one way or the other? A. N c . We had -- MR. SCHROETER: That answers the question. 0 Do you want to clarify your answer? MR. SCHROETER: The next question he wants to answer. (Luncheon:.recess taken.) ~ MR. MOHER: My name is James Moher and I represent H. K. Porter and Southern Textile Corporation. It's my understanding that we are proceeding today under the normal stipulations that all objections except as to form are reserved until the time of trial; is that correct? MR. SILBERFELD: Yes. BY MR. SILBERFELD: 0 During any of the times, sir, that you were the vice-president of the mining company did you participate in any discussion or procedure that had as its purpose the development of safe handling practices for raw asbestos fiber? A. No. 0 Do you know whether that was ever done by Flintkote Mines or the Flintkote Company? SAUCERS. <3ALI 2 "VSS2U. Certified Stance'? :!.o p 1<-r 1 77 2 A. I don't know of my personal knowledge, no. J\ V 3 Q. Do you know frortr.any source? 4 A. I -assume it was? 5 a What do you base that assumption on? 6 A. . My assumption that they were conscious of safety 7 in the plants at all times. 8 & During any of the times that you were the vice-- 9 president of the mining company, do you know whether there 10 i was any regular practice either by employees of Flintkote Ii or outside persons to take air samples of any -of the mining 12 : or milling operations at the mine in Quebec? 13 A. No, I don 't know. 14 Q. Are you aware of whether any air sampling was 15 ; ever done at any manufacturing facility of Flintkote during 16 ; that ten-year period from '59 to '69? 17 : A. No, I'm not. 23 : . 19 ;. 20 : 1 i 22 Q. Between 1959 and 1969, did you ever participate in any discussions or meetings that had as their purpose the development of a warning label to be placed either on the manufactured product or the raw asbestos product of the Flintkote Company? A. Yes. Ql Which products are we talking about, the raw product or the manufactured product? 3A? 1 ?< Ccr:i;iei 612:nty ".<0r. rr-r !'!C '' i ! - i C onnecticut i 1 78 2 A. The raw product. 3 ft When did you participate in that sort of j ! 4 ! conversation? " j ii 5 A. I would say sometime between 1965 and the-time that! 1 6 I retired | 1 7 ft Roughly *66 to *69, somewhere in there? [ 8 A. Yes. } i ft Who else other than you was involved in that 9 ! 10 1 discussion, sir? ! A. The mine manager and the liaison representative 12 of the vice-president in charge of manufacturing of the 13 Flintkote Company. ^ t ft The mine manager would have been -- 15 | A. Dal Poirier at that time. 16. : . 17 : ft Who was the liaison rep of the vice-president of manufacturing? 13 A. Steve Jobbins. 19 1 'n ft Is Mr. Jobbins still alive? A. No. 21 ft What was the substance of the conversation or discussions that you, Mr. Poirier and Mr. Jobbins had regarding warning labels? ^ ; A. I don't recall. r ft Your last answer was -- ,<) o o -:n i:c . k ;i ' i SANOfcP.S. SAL* i -HUC e r t t i i c d S r erte t y p e A c p e r : err, . ;">. :-t.v y , C o n n e c t i c u t 1 79 2 A. I don't recall the substance of the discussions. 3 Q. In a very general way, was the purpose of it to 4 | try to develop a warning label for the raw asbestos being i I i produced and shipped from the mine? j 5 ; . i A. Yes. ! 6! ! i i MR. HARRIS: Object to the form. i 7 | Q. What prompted that discussion, sir? 3 | i A. I believe recommendations of the packaging | 9 | committee of the QAMA. I believe. 10 Q. Can you recall whether the packaging committee of QAMA recommended an actual form of a warning label? 12 A. I don't recall that. a Did you contact any of the other mining companies U that were members of QAMA to see what they were doing about 15 warning? i6 ;j A. I did not, no. Ql Do you know whether either Mr. Poirier or Mr. Jobbins is i I did that? 19 1 A. I don't know whether they did or not. Q. Do you know whether as a result of those discussions 21 a warning was actually placed on raw material shipped from Flintkote? A. I believe it was. & Do you know when that was first done? c*i ri ;M-.c L. G enii: r;t 1 80 2 . A. Sometime the latter part of that period, '65 to 3 '69. 4 Ql From the time that the discussion was first 5 brought up about warning labels to the time that a warning 6 label was actually placed on the product, do you know what 7 period of time we are talking about there? 3 A. 9 Ql 10 : for us? A. No, I don't. More or less than a year; do you have any estimate I couldn't guess, no. Ql Let me show you, Mr. Main, five exhibits at once. I will mark them one through five for this deposition, but for the sake of the record, we should indicate that they are also Exhibits 4, 5, 6, 7 and 8 to the Hooker deposition ! taken April 12, 1984. So there is no confusion, we will remark them today. I will put the mark in the lower left-hand corner -- MR. SILBERFELD: I will mark them now and the reporter will mark them formally at the end of the deposition. MR. MOHER: These are being marked for identification? MR. SILBERFELD: Sure. BY MR. SILBERFELD: C'iTxS. C Iioci St r. : 1 81 2 0 Let me show you one through five, Mr. Main, show 4 :i3 them to your counsel, and I ask you to review jj minute or two. them for a (Discussion off the record.) 6 |I!I BY MR. SILBERFELD: i 7 | Ql With regard to Exhibits 1 through 5, which are now i! 3 | before you, do you recognize those as being various forms 9 | of warning labels? TM 0 ij A. As various forms of warning labels? 0 Yes, sir. A. Yes. 0 Do you know whether any of those warning labels were ever used by the Flintkote Company or Flintkote Mines? A. No, I don't. 1A 0 Do you know whether any of those labels -- 17 Withdraw that. Are you able to tell us whether there is any sequence in terms of when particular labels were used in time before or after on the labels? MR. SCHROETER: Objection. It assumes a fact that is not in evidence here. That is that he has ever seen them or knows anything about their use by anybody at any time. Q. Is this the first time you have seen those labels? Dv:t .o\v 82 A. I don't recall. I don't recall having seen them before, no. But I may have seen one or possibly more of iil them, but I don't recall. } iII Q. Do you have any recollection whatsoever that would I help you tell us whether or not there is any particular I I sequence or order to those warning labels, namely, one coming before another in time? A. No, I can't. ~ Q. Do you have any idea whether any of those products Pardon me -- whether any of those warning labels were ever actually used on any Flintkote products? A. No, I have not. MR. SILBERFELD: Let me mark as Plaintiffs' Exhibit No. 6 a letter dated May 2nd, 1968 signed by Mr. Main directed to a Mr. Albert Fay, F-a-y, vice-president of marketing, National Gypsum Company. It consists of five pages. Take a moment to look at that. (Warning label- containing the words "Contains. Asbestos Dust" marked: Main Plaintiffs' Exhibit No. 1 for identification.) (Warning label "Caution, contains asbestos fibers, avoid creating dust" marked Main Plaintiffs' Exhibit No. 2 for identification.) L c r ci ri c t noc v *>c K o o r : cr ; 83 (Warning label, "Asbestos, Harmful: May cause delayed lung injury" marked Main Plaintiffs' Exhibit No. 3 for identification.) j (Warning label, "Caution, contains asbestos j j i fibers, avoid creating dust" marked Main Plaintiffs Exhibit No. 4 for identification.) (Warning label, "Asbestos fibers present j cancer hazard exists, do not release contents j of this bag" marked Main Plaintiffs' Exhibit No. 5 for identification.) (Letter dated May 2, 1968 marked Main Plaintiffs Exhibit No. 6 for identification.) BY MR. SILBERFELD: Q. Have you had a chance to look at that? A. I have. Ql I would like to ask you some questions about it. With regard to Plaintiffs' Exhibit 6, Mr. Main, first of all, in an overview way, do you recall the circumstances that prompted your writing this letter to Mr. Fay? A. Yes. Now I do. Ql Would you describe those circumstances to us? MR. SCHROETER: In a previous way. A. As the letter indicates, the QAMA was doing considerable work on the study of the problem, both from the Certi fi ed Si 84 past history and from current information at their disposal. As the letter indicates, they had employed medical assistance in helping them determine the significance of the health aspects of the problem, specifically Dr. Wright of j j Cleveland. producers, * This was very costly to the few asbestos since'we-.-felt "ih'.QAHA that the users might . j j{ possibly t also be at risk bv the use of fiber, we would like to enlist II II their nelp in footing the bill. I tried to briefly tell them in the letter, one of the users, the asbestos cement products users, what we had learned from our studies to date and what we felt we had yet to learn, that a meeting was being called in the offices of Johns-Manville to do that; and in writing Mr. Fay, who was president of the Asbestos Cement Producers Association, I suggested an agenda and possible speakers for that meeting. Briefly that's what the letter said. Qt Prior to the time that you wrote this letter, was there some decision made at QAMA to try to enlist the help, the financial help, of asbestos users or manufacturers in defraying the cost of this rather expensive medical investigation that had been.undertaken? A. I can't remember whether it was an action of the QAMA or an action of certain individuals in QAMA. 0. other ? Are you sure in your mind that it was one or the 85 A. Yes. Q. Who within QAMA, if it was not the association I I itself, came up with the idea of going to the users or the manufacturers, as the case may be, and soliciting their financial help? I A. I don't know, but obviously I wrote the letter. Ql Do you know whether you were charged with the responsibility of contacting a number of user groups or just this one, the Asbestos Cement Association? A. As I recall, this is the only group I contacted, and it may be that this may have been my assignment. Ql Do you know whether any other representatives of companies who were members of QAMA contacted other user associations? A I don't know. I don't remember. Q. Do you know the names of any of the people representing other companies at QAMA who might have participated in this decision to try to get financial help to defray these expenses? A. I don't remember at this time, no. Q. In writing this letter to Mr. Fay, did you have any assistance from anyone? A. I don't remember any, no. . 0. Prior to actually drafting the letter, did you review ,1. c A.'pcrrc*.-: XNL'CT iC'-JT 86 any of the medical information that is referred to in the letter? A. I refer in the letter briefly to certain studies. I knew they existed. Whether I studied them all in detail or not, I don't remember. & Did you keep any sort of medical file which had these studies in it as part of your personal papers or workpapers ? A. I had in my files all information that had been distributed by QAMA to all of the members. As I recall, they distributed it in a duplicate. I would keep one copy in my files and circulate the second copy. 0, You would circulate it to your boss? A. To my boss and other interested parties, but like this letter, principally to my two copies; one is to the executive vice-president of the Flintkote Company, the other is to the president of the Flintkote Company. Q. Mr. Moran was the executive vice-president? A. No, Mr. Carpenter at this time was executive vice-president and Mr. Moran was president. I believe. Q. Is that Monte Carpenter? A. Monte Carpenter. I believe. It could be that Mr. Moran was executive vice-president and Mr. Carpenter was general manager. They were both designated to .go on to the 1 87 next higher position. Ql Let me direct you to certain parts of the letter, and I want to ask you some questions about it, if I may. \ _ i Ql In the third line, the second paragraph, "The first; 5 i Industrial Health Clinic was established in Asbestos, Quebec ; by Dr. Lanza in the late twenties and operated continuously 3 since that time." i t 7 Did you learn that from any records that you reviewed or did someone else tell you that? 1i*- A. I can't tell you where I learned it. Possibly from hearsay. Probably from hearsay if it was in the '20's. Ql During the time that you were the vice-president of the mining operation, were you aware that there was an 15 Industrial Health Clinic established in Asbestos, Quebec? A. I don't recall whether I was or not. 17 Ql Are you aware that during the time you were the vice-president of the mining operations the health records 1Q of the mining and milling employees were being monitored or #*V reviewed on some regular basis for health effects associated 21 with asbestos exposure? A. I might have been aware, but I don't remember it. Ql To the extent that was going on, was there a particular office or officer of Flintkote Mines, Ltd. who would have been charged with the responsibility of seeing 88 that was done? A. The mine manager would, yes. I Q. The letter also indicates that in the late 1940's an Industrial Clinic similar to the one at Asbestos was established at Thetford Mines. i Do you recall that part of the letter? A. I read it here in the letter, yes. Q. Do you have any information about" that health clinic independent of what's contained in this letter? A. No. Q. At the time that you visited the mines, not as vice-president but back in the late '40's, do you remember that visit when you went on your vacation you went up there? A. Yes. Q. What was the purpose of that visit, Mr. Main? A. The purpose -- My wife and I were taking a trip through Quebec and it was shortly after we had opened up the mill and mine, and as an officer of the Flintkote Company, I was curious to see what an asbestos mine was like and to see what this new.property was. So we dropped off and they gave me the 25-cent tour through the mine, and we went on our way.. Q. Let me refer you to the part of the letter that is a few lines past the part I just read, and it indicates, "Dust 1 89 2 counts are conducted periodically at all mines and mills by iI 3 i the QAMA." 4 l! ii Does that refresh your memory in any way whether ! 5 dust counts were actually ever taken or air samples were ever 6 | actually ever, taken at Flintkote's mine? 7 A. Well, I don't know of my own knowledge that they were taken, but obviously I wouldn't have said that if I had not heard or thought that they were. 10 0. There is a reference at the bottom of the first page to a study done by Dr. Braun, formerly of the Industrial Hygiene Foundation. Did you ever review that study prior to the time that you wrote the letter? A. I can't remember. Q. Over on page two, the first line -- I should 17 start at the bottom of the page before "I am." "I am citing this one isolated study, not to V3 indicate that the industry has no problems because I think it has, but rather to indicate the danger of drawing conclusions on any one particular study." With regard to the problems that you believe the industry did have, what were you referring to at that time, sir? A. Well, it was merely a caution not to be lulled to 90 sleep by one study because you know in all of these things there are two sides to every question, and it indicated the need of more study and more work. Ql A s of May of 1968, were you concerned that there was a health risk associated with asbestos exposure? MR. SCHROETER: You mean raw asbestos? M R .SIEBERFEED: Yes. A. Prior-to 1968? Q. As of the date of writing this letter, May of '68, at that time were you personally concerned there was a health risk associated with raw asbestos exposure? A. Well, I obviously, from what I said at the top of page two in this letter, thought that there could be or * might be. Q. At the time that you wrote this letter, did you have in mind any concern about any possible health risks associated with exposure to finished asbestos products or manufactured products rather than raw asbestos? A. Not of any products that we were concerned with, no. Q. Did you have that concern with regard to any products even though they might not have been manufactured by Flintkote? A. Only from what Dr. Selikoff's study showed. i.Tilii n n c 91 & The next paragraph, the first full paragraph of the second page, it indicates a budget for QAMA of' $300,000. j { Was that the budget for the health investigation done by j QAMA or was that the entire budget'of QAMA? ! i i A. From this letter, I assume that was just for the ! I ) health study, yes. ! j Q. There is a reference in the next line to a scientific !_ committee of the QAMA. Do you recall whether any employee j of Flintkote ever sat on that committee? MR. SCHROETER: Objection. You're misreading something. It says the institute consists of two committees, not the QAMA. These are committees of the institute. MR. SIEBERFELD: Sorry. You're right. MR. SCHROETER: Which was a creature of QAMA but it was not the QAMA. BY MR. SILBERFELD: Q. Are you aware or is your memory refreshed in any way by this letter that the QAMA established something called the Institute of Occupational and Environmental Health? A. I'm aware that the QAMA established the Institute of Occupational Health, which was an ad hoc committee, yes. Q. Did any employee of Flintkote ever serve on any committee of the Institute of Occupational and Environmental .Sa T-'OEJ? 3. t'r/ALI `"J.'c* -ILL ; C- r r t i f i o. i o t on or * . 1 o -rt 1 92 2 Health? 3 A. Not to my knowledge, no. 4 Ct Were the members of the institute representatives j j 5 of members of the QAMA, in other words,, for mining companies?! 6 A. Yes. I believe they brought into the institute | 7 the Cassiar mine, which was not a Quebec mine; it was a mine j i 3 in Western Canada. I believe they were also members of the j i | 9 institute, but were not members.of QAMA. There may have j 10 been others, but I remember Cassiar in particular. 0. Specifically do you know whether any members of 12 the QAMA, such as JtM, or.Asbestos Corporation, or Lake, were 12 represented in the institute by any employees of those companiei 14 A. I don't know. Q, Was the institute comprised in part at all by 16 professionally trained people such as medical doctors or 17 industrial hygienists? 18 A. Yes. Dr. Wright was a member. Others I can't 1? remember. a During any of your years as the vice-president of the mining company, did you ever have any contact f.> n specifically with Dr. Wright? A. Socially, yes. - Q. As part of those social contacts, did you and he ever discuss the health effect of asbestos'-exposure? 1 93 2 A. No, not that I remember. 3 i e 4 ! t | 5 l1 6 i !1 7i 3 !j 9! io ; Q- Did you have any contacts professionally or socially with;'.Dr. Kotin? j A. N o . j ( Q- How about Dr. Cushher? ' ! A. No. j 0- Any- of the other doctors mentioned here in the 11 second paragraph, Dr. Gregoire? - ! A. No, not to my knowledge, I don't remember any ji of them. Braun, Pelnar, no. 12 & Did the Flintkote Company and Flintkote Mines I, contribute its share of the budget amount mentioned in the ;4 second paragraph of this letter? ,.. A. Yes. ; Q. Do you know what Flintkote's share was? 17 :: A. No, but it would be very minor. I don't recall y, ; now what our relationship of the tonnage was to the total 10 ; tonnage, but it was based on tonnage, and I would say it would be considerably less than ten percent, maybe less than five percent; but the figures escape me now. I don't remember. 0. Do you know of any records that might exist that would reflect what the percentage was? A. Yes. It would be records in the offices of QAMA, f I r - >. t. .1,Y 1 >r 94 possibly offices of Flintkote. Q. The last paragraph of the second page refers to certain conferences being held. Did you ever attend any of these conferences, sir? A. No. Ql Do you know whether any representative of Flintkote ever attended these conferences? A. No. Q. Please turn to the third page. The first full paragraph refers to certain studies or projects that the institute is sponsoring and there are six listed there. Do you see that? A. Yes. Ql By sponsoring these projects, is it meant there that the institute was financially supporting those projects? A. Yes. They were funding them, all or part of them. Ql Did you ever follow up prior to the time that you retired from the company what the results of any of those studies were? A. No, not that I remember. Ql From the middle of'the page on now, there appears to be a list of tentative conclusions, if we can call them that. Would that be a fair statement, sir, as of May of 1968 95 A. Let me read the paragraph. I think that's an editorial "we." It's probably "I'm beginning to believe." Q. . My question is overall first and then we will talk i about them individually. Would it be fair to characterize ` i these as tentative conclusions reached based on available i evidence as of May of 1968 about the subject discussed? i A." Yes. I would say a progress report to date. Q. You noted that when you used the word "we," that it was the editorial "we" and it was you speaking for yourself? A. Yes. I think so. I didn't consult with anybody in writing this that I remember. Q. But at the time you wrote this, did you believe that a representative, a fair appraisal of the information was then available to you and your colleagues at QAMA? A. I think these conclusions bring us up 'to date at that time as to what I perceived of the subject of these studies. Q. These five conclusions that are listed here would rise above the level of speculation, would they not, Mr. Main? These were fairly well-founded based on medical evidence? A. Not necessarily, no. It could be speculation. 0. -With regard to the first one, where you say there is 1 96 2 a definite lineage between asbestos and lung health which \ 3 becomes manifest after long exposure, paren, 20 years, close i } 4 ! parens, period. J 5 i1 In referring to asbestos in that paragraph, did t t 5 | you mean raw asbestos, asbestos manufactured products or \ 1 | both? i 3 ! A. I don't know. I assume raw asbestos. i ii 9 !! Q. Is that because there was no particular concern 10 ! in your mind at that time about any of the manufactured finished products that were made by the Flintkote Company? 2 A. That's right. T < Q. The second paragraph refers to a worsening of the lung condition when the worker is a smoker. Do you see that, sir? A. Yes. 15 U Q. Do you recall whether the Flintkote Company ever either at this time or after warned its own workers, mining 1? j employees and manufacturing employees, about the dangers 0 of smoking in the presence of asbestos exposure? ^b* A. I don't recall, no. Q. With regard to the last conclusion about protection 22 against exposure, do you see that, sir? A. Yes. Q&. Do you have any specific methods of protection in 97 mind that you had in mind at that time that would yield beneficial results? A." The first obvious' one I can think of is respirators There may have been others. I don't know now what I had in mind then. Q, At the bottom, of the page it goes on to discuss five as yet unanswered questions. Would that b e 'a fair characterization of it? A. "What we do not know is"? Q. Yes, there are two at the bottom of that page and three more at the top of page four. A. Yes, I think they all point to possible, avenues of improvement. Ql During any of the time that you participated in OAMA meetings, did the subject of substituting another material for asbestos ever come up for discussion? A. Not to my knowledge, no. Q. I take it this letter was written in a way with the blessing of QAMA by you, was it not? A. I don't recall. I don't recall that. Q. On the fourth page in the first full paragraph it says, "We in the QAMA feel," et cetera. Would it be correct to say that you were writing the letter on behalf of QAMA? A. Not necessarily. I don't remember that I was or 98 whether it was my own -- I don't remember that. I don't know whether I was prompted to or not. & The end of the paragraph is basically a pitch- for money from the users of asbestos 'and it says governmental agencies. Do you know whether any governmental agency ever participated in some support funding for the work being done by QAMA? A. I don't remember that, either, no. 0. Was there a particular member of QAMA who was targeted to contact the governmental agency, if you recall? A. I don't remember that. There may have been. Qi In the middle of page four you go on to suggest to Mr. Fay that he have a couple of speakers at this meeting that is going to be held, and one of the people you recommend is Mr. Lindell. Do you see that,' sir? A. Yes. Qi He was the chairman of Canadian J-M? A. That's right. Qi Does that refresh, your memory that the Institute of Occupational and Environmental Health was composed in part of industry representatives? A. What's that again? 0- I'm asking whether seeing that written on the page refreshes your memory that the institute was composed in part 99 of industry representatives. A. What industry? Ql The mining industry. i I A.. Oh, yes. Yes, he was president or chief executive i i of Canadian J-M, and:he was an industry representative, and j he was on this committee. I think the sentence says that. Q. Do you know whether this meeting that was proposed ; j here that Mr. Fay was going to conduct evertookplace? j A. I believe it did. I believe it did,yes. Q. . Do you know whether you attended? A. I think I did, yes. Q. Do you know whether any other representative of Flintkote attended? A. I can't remember. It's possible. Qi It indicates at the bottom of the fourth page that the meeting was going to be' held in J-M offices. Would that have been New York? A. That's right. 0. Do you know whether, following the meeting, you prepared any sort of memo or report, or other writing that you transmitted to the people you reported to up the line? A. I can't remember now. Q. Lastly, on the last page, there is a very faint signature there. Can you make; that out as being your signature 1 100 2 A. I can. 3 0. Is it yours? j 4 A. Yes. 5 MR. SILBERFELD: Next is Plaintiffs' Exhibit | 6 7, a copy of a letter'on the stationery of Canadian1 7 Johns-Manville, Ltd., dated June 4, 1968 from Mr. 3 Lindell. It's just addressed to "Dear Sir." 9 Attached to it are three pages of exhibits ! 10 entitled "QAMA" and a list of medical articles. They number 46 in all. i X It's previously identified as Exhibit 44 to the Hooker deposition. (Letter dated June 4, 1968 marked Main \5 Plaintiffs' Exhibit No. 7 for identification.) BY MR. SILBERFELD: Q. Have you had a chance to look at it? A. I glanced at it. Q. Do you recognize it? A. I can't say that I do. Q. On the upper right-hand corner there is a received stamp. Do you see that? A. Yes. Q. Do you recognize that as a stamp used by the office of the president of the Flintkote Company at any time? o."* i < jrr i 101 A. It may have been, but I don't recognize it as such. 4 ;j Q. ii i 5 \ corner. There is some handwriting at the upper left-hand Can you make that out, sir? 6 A. ' Yeah. 7 Q. Do you know who that refers to? 3 ii A. Yes. It looks like Mr. Heubner. Ql Who is Mr. Heubner? ~ A. Mr. Heubner was the insurance manaaer of the o Flintkote Company. He may have had other offices, too, concerned with workman's compensation and safety. I don't know just what his duties were. Q. Where was Mr.Heubner's office as of 196 8? A. New York. Q. Did he office in the same general offices as the office of the president of the company? A. Yes. Q. Attached to the exhibit is a bibliography of sorts. Do you know if you have ever seen that document before today? A. I may may have, but I don't recognize it. I may have seen it. Q. Did the Flintkote Company as of 1968 have a medical library? 102 A. I don't know. Ql There wasn't any in the offices where you maintain your office? A. My office at this time was in New Jersey. Ol East Rutherford? A. East Rutherford. We had no medical library to my knowledge in East Rutherford. '.'MR:. SILBEFFELD': '-As .Plaintiffs:h Exhibit 8, let me mark a copy of a letter on the stationery of Canadian J-M, dated October 1st, 1968. It consists of two pages, addressed to "Gentlemen," and signed by Mr. Hendry, H-e-n-d-r-y. (Letter dated October 1, 1968 marked Main Plaintiffs' Exhibit No. 8 for identification.) BY MR. SILBERFELD: Q. With regard to Plaintiffs' Exhibit 8, have you ever seen that document before? A. I may have. I don't know. I don't remember. Qi In substance it would be correct to say that this is a notification by Canadian J-M to its customers of the fact that they are going to put a warning label on their raw asbestos products? A. That's right. 0. Do you know whether or not the Flintkote Company 103 ever utilized a similar letter to the one that's Plaintiffs' Exhibit 8 and notified its customers? A. I don't recall. Q. Do you know whether the language used for a Flintkote warning label actually came from a warning label used by Canadian J-M? A. I don't recall that, either. Q. Do you kjiow who Mr. Hendry was? A. Yes. A. Who was he? A. He was the general sales manager for asbestos fiber for Canadian Johns-Manville. Q. He would have been your counterpart at Canadian J-M? A. I would like to think I could have sold as much fiber as he did, yes, but -- Q. I didn't mean in terms of tonnage. I meant in terms of title. A. That's right. I did not have the title of general sales manager of Flintkote or Mines, Ltd. Q. Let me go back to your letter to Mr. Fay, the five-page letter. That was May of 1968. With reference to that time period, May of 1968, do you remember whether the Flintkote Company as of that time 104 was putting a warning label on its asbestos products? A. No, I don't remember that we were. Q. Are there any documents or is there any material that you're aware of that would permit us to fix the date as to when Flintkote first started to put a warning label on its products? MR. SCHROETER: On its raw fiber? MR. SILBERFELD: Yes. A. I couldn't pinpoint that date. Q. Do you know from your own knowledge whether or not the company ever put a warning label of any kind on its manufactured products that contained asbestos? A. I don't know. MR. SILBERFED: Plaintiffs' Exhibit 9 to this deposition, a memo on the interoffice correspondence of the Flintkote Company dated November 19, 1968 to Mr. Heubner from Mr. Johnson, subject, safety precautions, use of asbestos fibers, and this has previously been identified as Exhibit' 22 to the Hooker deposition. (Memorandum dated November 19, 1968 marked Main Plaintiffs' Exhibit No. 9 for identification.) A. Yes. Ql At the bottom of the page, there are a number of 105 people copied. Do you see your name there? A. Yes. Q. Do you recall ever receiving this memo? A. I assume I did, yes. Q. You assume it based solely on the fact that your name appears at the bottom? A. Yes. Q. You .don't have any independent recollection of getting this? A. No. independent recollection, no. Q. Do you know whether the study of the plants that is mentioned in the memo at the last paragraph was ever conducted? A. I don't know. 0. Other than probably receiving the memo, did you initiate any action in response to the information contained herein? A. In response to thisinformation? Q. Yes, sir. Didyou do anything? A. I don't recall, no. 0l It indicates in the third paragraph, apparently, that you informed- Mr. Heubner -- Pardon me. "I informed Mr. Johnson that Johns-Manville proposes to use a caution label on all bags of asbestos fiber." Do you, see that, sir? 1 106 2 A. I do. 3 Q. Do you recall so advising Mr. Johnson or anyone else 4 at the Flintkote Company? ! !I 5 A. I recall discussing this whole subject with Mr. !i i 6 Johnson, who was then the head of the tile division, j i 7 asphalt and asbestos vinyl tile division of the Flintkote | < i 3 Company, yes. j 9 Q. That was the major product being manufactured at | i i io ! East Rutherford? *<ii A. No, not the major. It was not manufactured at East Rutherford. His office was at East Rutherford, but there was not an asphalt tile plant at East Rutherford, no. Q. Was the subject of your discussion with Mr. Johnson: pointed towards the advisability of placing a warning label on the asbestos-containing tile product? 6 A. As I recall, I brought Mr. Johnson up to date on 17 the subject very much as I did Mr. Fay in that letter, and 'd told him about what the QAMA was doing, what others in the 19 QAMA were doing, including Johns-Manville; and as a result 20 2 : of that, I assume he wrote this letter. Q. Specifically, though, Mr. Main, do you recall whether your conversation was pointed, if at all, at warning labels relating to raw asbestos or finished products or either one? 1AL C`. ; N N t C T t C L 107 A. Mr. Johnson had. nothing to do with raw asbestos. Mr. Johnson was the manager of the tile division, which was a finished product. Q. From that should we understand that discussions centered on the issue of whether or not to warn about the finished product,namely, tile,which was Mr. Johnson's j concern? j | A. I can't draw that conclusion from this. I don't i i . I recall it fromtheconversation. ' MR. SCHROETER: For clarification only, was Mr. Johnson also in charge of tile manufacturing? THE WITNESS: Yes. He was general manager of the tile division. MR. SCHROETER: So he had under him not only whatever finished products dealings might take place but he had under him the workers working in the plants making tile? THE WITNESS: Yes. MR. SCHROETER: Using raw asbestos? THE WITNESS: Right. BY MR. SILBERFELD: Q. With'regard to the middle of the third paragraph, Mr. Main, where it says "These labels will create a considerable amount of discussion among our employees who are 108 exposed to asbestos and fee that their individual exposure may be harmful." Do you recall having any discussions with Mr. Johnson about that aspect of whether or not to warn? A. No, I do not. * Q. Was it ever a personal concern of yours that by J ! ) placing a warning label on any of the asbestos products i _ i manufactured by the company that concern or fear or suspicion j would be raised in the minds of the Tlintkote employees? MR. SCHROETER: Objection, vague. Are you talking about what this letter talks about, namely,; bags of asbestos fiber, or are you talking about finished products? MR. SILBERFEED: I will restate the question. Q. This memo seems to suggest that the labels may create concern among the employees about exposure to asbestos; and specifically speaks of labels on the bags of fiber in th sentence just before that. Do you see that, sir? A. Let's read that again. It appears to me he is talking about the bags. Ql With that in mind, did you ever personally become concerned that the placing of a warning label on bags of raw asbestos could create fear or concern in the minds of 1 109 2 Flintkote employees? 3 A. He doesn't quote me as saying that in that paragraph. 4 Q. My question is: Irrespective of what the memo 5 says, were you ever concerned that the placing of warning j i 6 labels on bags of raw asbestos might lead to fear or concern 7 on the part of the employees? j I A. No. | 8 i Q. Did you ever recommend that a warning label not. j 9 I be placed on bags of raw asbestos so that employees would not become concerned? A. Quite the contrary. 12 Q. What did you recommend? 13 A. Well, I think I testified before, maybe it was this morning, that we -- or earlier -- that we in QAMA recommended that warnings be placed on the bags of fiber. 6 7 Q. To your knowledge, did anyone within the Flintkote Company ever suggest that warning labels not be placed on 13 bags of raw asbestos so as to avoid raising concern and fear 19 or anxiety on the part of the .workers? -i V A. I never heard that, no. Q. To your knowledge, as the placing of warning labels on bags of raw asbestos delayed within the company because of a concern that it might raise fear among the workers? A. No, not to my knowledge. IO k :;- 110 MR. SILBERFELD: Let me mark as the plaintiffs' next exhibit in order, Exhibit 10, a copy of a I memo on the interoffice correspondence of ; Flintkote Company, dated November 6, 1969. It's a ; memo from Mr. Hooker to Mr. Poirier, and it's been 1 , previously identified as Exhibit 11 to the Hooker i deposition. 1 | (Memorandum dated November 6, 1969 marked Main Plaintiffs' Exhibit No. 11 for identification.) A. Yes. Q. Have you had a chance to review Exhibit 10? A. I have. Q. From the effects of the memo, does that refresh your memory that it was around November of 1969 that a warning label was first placed on bags of raw fiber shipped by Flintkote? A. I retired from Flintkote in August 1969. This is written in November 1969. I don't have any recollection of ever having seen this memo. Q. Do you know why you would be copied with this memo even though you retired three months earlier? A. I have no idea. MR. SCHROETER: They were accustomed to his face. Ill A. I had been there 40 years, and they got in the habit, I guess. Q. During any of the time, Mr. Main, that you were the vice-president of Flintkote Mines, do you recall any claims for workers' compensation benefits being made by any mining or milling employee of the company? A. No. MR. SCHROETER:- For the record, objection. It's irrelevant to the subject matter of these actions. Q. During any of the time between 1955 and 1969 that you were involved in sales, do you recall whether or not there were any workers' compensation claims made by any worker employed by the Flintkote Company in a manufacturing setting? MR. SCHROETER: Same objection. It's ' irrelevant. Don't answer the question, sir. THE WITNESS: I didn't. MR. SILBERFELD: Did you say "Don't answer the question"? MR. SCHROETER: Claims made don't convey knowledge of anything. It's not relevant to any of these claims made in these cases in which this deposition is taken. n;j 1 2 3 4 | ! 5 | i i 6 I i 7 ! i :| to :j i; / i*^ 1 1-1 15 .] 16 17 IJ> " i i J n : MR. SILBERFELD: 112 This deposition is taken under St. Jacques, where there is at least a dozen plant worker cases that I am aware of, ^ Auzene, A-u-z-e-n-e, being one of them. I could name others, but they are workers whose exposures would be identical to the exposure listed in the question,and identical to the exposure of any such worker making the claim between 1955 and 1969. MR. LEWIS: I will join in Mr. Silberfeld's comments. I have 12 such cases. MR. STAMOS: We have such cases. MR. SCHROETER: Of course, you have such cases and I know that. Number two, the counsel representing the Flintkote Corporation in those cases, because his father died over the weekend, could not be here, Larry Judy, and what he would or would not do were he here, I do not know? but thirdly, I point out just so you understand why I'm saying what I'm saying, is that even in the workers cases, there is no issue to which someone else's claim elsewhere would be relevant. The making of a claim conveys nothing. It's merely a historical fact and, in fact, I could point you to superior court rulings on matters of C r : j'i q 113 evidence that are to the same effect. MR. SILBERFELD: Number one, Mr. Judy called me to advise me that he would not be here because of the death of his father and advised me that you would be representing the interests of the Flintkote Company insofar as they involve the plant worker cases that he represents the company on, so I don't think that your instructions based on his absence is any good. You may have other grounds for instructing, but don't do it on the grounds that he is not here because he specifically delegated that responsibility to you, at least that's what he told me. MR. SCHROETER: My instruction was not based solely on his absence. His absence is a recital that I made. It was not a ground. MR. SILBERFELD: I 'm aware of the reasons for his absence. Secondly, the fact that some superior court in the Bay area has ruled a particular way I don't think binds our superior court in Los Angeles under auto equities. I know it doesn't bind our superior court to decide that way or the same way 114 or a different way, so that is an interesting fact, one of history, but totally irrelevant to the subject matter of this discussion. I really would like you to reconsider the instruction primarily because I think that the people who are involved in plant worker cases stand identically in the same shoes as the people who would make such claims if there were such claims, and I think that the fact that a claim exists conveys much more than just a fact but conveys to the company the fact that somebody is claiming that their exposure to a particular substance is harmful which, arguably, creates a duty on the part of the company to investigate that and do something about it. MR. SCHROETER: Can you remember what your guestion was? MR. SILBERFELD: No, but I'm pretty sure he has it written down. (Question read.) A. N o . MR. SILBERFELD: I would like the record to show that Mr. Schroeter has graciously withdrawn his instruction. 1 115 2 At this moment, I'm going to pass to other 3 counsel, review my notes and .then wind up my |i ! 4 j examination. ! I 5 CROSS-EXAMINATION 6 BY MR. LEWIS: 7 Q. My name is Guv Lewis, and I represent some ! i j 3 plaintiffs in the Los Angeles area. ' i ! 9 Earlier Mr. Schroeter said I have three.minutes. I i i 10 I will be able to deal with you within that time frame. I don '.t have too many questions. j ji While you were th vice-president of Flintkote Mines, you testified earlier this morning that you recall the mines purchased raw asbestos from Johns-Manville, Asbestos ]s Corporation, Carey Canada and Lake Asbestos. Do you have any recollection of asbestos mines 16 1 during that period of time purchasing any raw asbestos from 1 v*> National Asbestos Mines, Ltd.? MR. HARRIS: Objection. Are you saying -- Are you talking about Flintkote Mines purchasing from these people only? MR^ LEWIS: Yes. MR. COHEN: - Place an objection on the .record as well. I'm not sure that was actually the subject of Mr. Main's testimony. !C; I SAM CEa S. pAf.Z H :\T-..L. C cr : i ioU .*>t a ;; o' ?o e .*ar : / r-:r ' 1 116 2 MR. SCHROETER: 'May I say to guide the,, 3 record? Mr. Main has talked about two things: 4 Number one, to whom did Flintkote Mines sell; 5 number two, from whom did Flintkote buy. 6 You are raising a third line of inquiry; "/T namely, from whom did Flintkote Mines buy? 8 MR. LEWIS: Yes.. MR. SCHROETER: It's a new topic, and it's not referring to something he said before that. i i MR. LEWIS: If my notes are incorrect, maybe I better start from the beginning. MR. SCHROETER: Let's do that. BY MR. LEWIS: Ql Mr. Main, is it your recollection that Flintkote 16 :l Mines purchased raw asbestos fiber from the Johns-Manville Corporation? A. Yes. 10 Q. Is it your recollection during the period you were -- all of this is during the period you were vice-president of Flintkote Mines -- that they purchased raw asbestos fibers from the Asbestos Corporation? 22 A. Yes. Q. Did they purchase raw asbestos fibers from Carey Canada? C i-r:iXic-i tc ;i:: v c *. 117 A. Yes. 0. Did Flintkote Mines purchase asbestos fibers.from Lake Asbestos? A. Yes. & Did Flintkote Mines purchase asbestos fibers from National Asbestos Mines', Ltd.? il A. They may have, but I have no recollection of it. 3 a Did Flintkote Mines purchase asbestos fibers from the Rubberoid Company? MR. HARRIS: Objection. Object to the form of the question. Q. You may answer. A. I have no knowledge. Ql Did Flintkote Mines purchase raw asbestos fibers from Bell Asbestos Mines? A. They may have, but I have no recollection of it. & Did Flintkote Mines purchase raw asbestos fibers from Union Carbide? A. Not to my knowledge, no. & Did they purchase asbestos fibers from Hill Brother Chemical Company? A. Not to' my knowledge, no. Q. Did thev purchase asbestos fibers from Pacific Asbestos? 118 A. I have no knowledge of that, either. & Do you have any knowledge of them purchasing I i asbestos fibers from Quebec Asbestos Corporation, Ltd.? A. No, I have no knowledge. Q. I believe that you testified that of the .`.inventory of raw asbestos fibers that you were responsible for selling -- A. Yes. : Q. -- that some of it was sold to small customers in the United States? A. Yes. Q. Can you identify any of those small customers for me? A. I'll try to pick out a few that I can remember. Raybestos Manhattan, Goodyear, possibly Lewis Asphalt Engineering. L-e-w-i-s. There may have been others, but ! they don't come to me right away. Q. In addition to those small customers in the i U. S., you also mentioned certain mining customers that you sold the inventory of asbestos to, and I think you mentioned the Johns-Manville Corporation, Asbestos Corporation, .Philip Carey, among others? A. Right. Q. Did you see any part of that inventory of raw 1 119 2 asbestos to the Flintkote Company? I i 3 i A. Oh, yes. 4 I! Q. Did you sell to the Flintkote Company for the ' i same price that you would sell to the other mining -- to j 6 j mining companies? | i 7 j A. Yes. i Q. ' Was there any differentiation in the price structure of sales from Flintkote Mines to the Flintkote Company and ; any other customer? A. As I recall, there was a ten percent differential. Q. Was that a ten percent discount given to the i* Flintkote Company? i A. It was an inter-mine discount which was the custom i; among the Quebec Asbestos Mining Association companies. They would sell one another at a ten percent discount from the price they would sell to other .nonmining users. Q. So when Flintkote Mines would sell raw fiber to i i Johns-Manville, they would give them a ten percent discount? A. That's right. Q. And when they would buy from Johns-Manville, they would receive a ten percent discount? A. That's right. 0. Did Flintkote Mines sell fiber to the Flintkote Company? 120 A. Yes. . Q. Was the price of the sale to the Flintkote Company the same price that Flintkote Mines would charge any other nonmining entity? A. No. I believe they got the ten percent .discount. Ql Mining companies got a ten percent discount, and the Flintkote Company got a ten percent discount -- A. In other words, Flintkote Mines passed it along to its parent company. I-believe that's the way it was handled. 0. A Mr. Heubner was mentioned earlier? A. Yes. Ql What's that gentleman's first name? A. Harry. Q. Do you know if he is still alive? A. No, he is not. Q. On the Exhibit No. 7, while you were with the QAMA, did you ever receive correspondence from Karl Lindell? A. I believe I may have, yes. Q. Do you recognize the signature on Exhibit 7 as being the signature of Karl Lindell? A. I don't remember what his -signature was, no. Q. Were there minutes of the meetings of the OAMA generated? 121 A. Yes. Q. Did you receive copies of those minutes? A I believe so, yes. 0. You mentioned earlier in your testimony that you would frequently receive two copies of documents from the QAMA; is that correct? A. Yes. That was from theHealthInstitute, two copies. - Q. Would you receive two copies of the QAMA minutes as well? A. I can't remember. I may have. Q. What would you dowith the minutes after you received them? A Well, my copy I would act on if there was something to be acted on. If there wasn't, I would file it. 0. Where would you file it? Did you have a specific file for QAMA minutes? A I don't recall how my help in the office filed it, but they filed it so they could find it when I wanted it. Specifically and how I don't know. 0. During the entire period that you were representative of the QAMA, did you preserve or keep all of the minutes that were sent to you?. A. As I say, they were filed. Whatever the company's 122 policy was of preserving files was followed with respect to those files. Q. Did you have a successor from the Flintkote Company who followed you on the QAMA after your retirement? A. Yes. On the sale of fiber, Mr. Hooker. Art Hooker. Q. Do you know whether any files that may have existed with minutes of theOAMA meetings in them would have been _ passed on to Mr. Hooker? A. I assume so. MR. SCHROETER: That means you don't know; maybe they were, maybe not. You don't know? THE WITNESS: I don't know what happened after I left. Q. After you left, you have no idea what happened to any of your files. MR. LEWIS: Thank you very much. No further questions. CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. STAMOS: Q. My name is Gregory Stanios. We represent some additional plaintiffs in the asbestos litigation. I will be skipping around primarily trying to follow up on some of the questions that have been asked previously. 1 123 2 Please try to bear with me. I'm not trying to 3 confuse you, but question you in each category-or some 4 ! of the categories. 5 When did the Pioneer Division of Flintkote first 6 7 Il \ 3 1 j1I 9 ! ! 1 10 i i ; start? A _ Just before I came with the company, which was late 1928 or '29, the Flintkote Company purchased the Pioneer Paper Company in Los Angeles. And the Pioneer Paper Company, it was operating in the western states. Shortly after it was purchased, the 1 Flintkote Company organized it as the Pioneer Division of the 12 ; Flintkote Company operating in the 11 western states, which la : are now 13 western states. Q. And all sales of products by Flintkote in the 15 western states-was out of the Pioneer Division? 16 A. Generally speaking, yes. 17 13 Q. Were there any products after 1929 or '28 that were shipped into the West Coast that were not manufactured 19 ~,r\ by the Pioneer Division? 4m A I believe so. 2 * *. i Q. Any asbestos-containing products? "S ^ A. I really don't know. A lot would depend on freight rates and one thing and another. They did manufacture asbestos-containing products on the West Coast, yes. C :r;iiicii St<rr''rypi- 124 Ql Did you ever visit any of the: manufacturing plants of the Pioneer Division on the West Coast? A. Briefly one time. 0. When was that? A. I don't know, but on one of my visits to California I was given a trip through the plant, through parts of the plant, not all of it. It might have been in the 1950's, possibly 1960's. _ Ql Is that the Vernon plant? A. Yes. Q. Did you inspect or travelthrough all of the various manufacturing divisions at the Vernon plant? A. No, it was late in the afternoon after five o'clock, and I called there to go out to dinner with the plant manager, Wilson Harvey, and he said on the way out, "Let me show you through the roofing plant." I think all I saw was the roofing plant. MR. SCHROETER: A twelve and a half cent tour? THE WITNESS: Yes, not even the twenty-five cent tour. Q. Did the Vernon plant at that time manufacture floor tile? A. Yes. Q. An asbestos-containing floor tile? 1 125 2 A. Yes. 3 ft Did you tour the floor tile manufacturing portion ; 4 ; of the plant? 5 ! A. No. ft Is Wilson Harvey still alive? 6 ! 7 i A. Yes. i i 0 ft Is he still with the company? i ! i 9 ; A. I don't know. At least he was alive at Christmastime 10 : when I got a Christmas card from him. i - ft Have you ever seen the installation of Flintkote' s * 1'* asbestos-containing floor tile? :? A. Yes. ft How many occasions? * s A. I saw the Chicago Heights plant, and I saw the New Orleans plant. 1 3 i 7 ft Have you actually seen the floor tiles installed? A. I have installed them in my own house, yes. 13 t ;) a When you installed the floor tiles in your own house, did those floor tiles contain asbestos? ^ , A. Yes. ft Did you have occasion to cut the tiles? 22 A. I didn't do it myself. I had them installed. ft Did you watch thevworkers install the tile? ,. A. Yes. 126 Q. Did you see them cut the tile? A. Yes. Q. When was this installed in your house? A. This was -- A long time ago. I would guess in the 1950's perhaps. 0. Is that the only time you saw floor tile installed, Flintkote tile? A. I can't remember. I may have seen it other times, in the office building or something of that sort. I really can't remember. Ql You did see them cut the tile? A. Yes, I have seen it cut. Q. Would you describe the process that you saw in cutting the tile? A. Well, as I recall, they had a guillotine cutter very much like a papercutter, and you would pull it down, and it would cut the tile. Ql Did you notice whether that procedure created any visible dust? A. I didn't notice any dust, no. Ql Did the floor tile workers that.*wor.ked in your house wear any kind of respirator? A. N o . Q. Did you see the floor tile workers install the tile 127 in your house sand the tile? A. No. Ql Have you ever seen a worker sand floor tile? A. No. . i Ql Your responsibilities with Flintkote never involved; t * sales of floor tiles; is that correct? j A. That's right, with one exception. We sold floor j tile for export to Puerto Rico. We had an agent in~Puerto j Rico and the export department handled that,.and the export department came under my supervision, and we may have exported it to other countries offshore. Q. During your duties with Flintkote and primarily during the period of time where you had some sales responsibilities for floor tile in Puerto Rico, did you ever receive any information that the sanding of floor tile could release asbestos fibers in the atmosphere? A. No. Q. Did the Flintkote Company, during the time that you were involved in sales, put out any information as to guidelines to be used in laying down floor tile? A. I don't remember. Ql Did the Flintkote Company during that period of time ever put out warnings in regard-.to sanding of floor tile? A. I don't remember, no. 128 Ql Do you know of any studies that Flintkote Company or any of its divisions or subsidiaries ever did or had commissioned to determine whether asbestos fibers can be released when asbestos floor tiles are cut or chipped or sanded? A. I know of no such studies, no. Q. Do you recall any other visits to the West Coast, any visits to a Flintkote- manufacturing plant other than the one you already described? A. No, I don't. Q. ' Did Flintkote purchase a company by the name of Tiletex in Texas? A. Tiletex, where? Ql In Texas. A. Not in Texas. Ql Where is it? A. Chicago Height.s, Illinois. Q. That became the Chicago Heights plant of Flintkote? A. No, Flintkote had other plants in Chicago Heights. Q. Before Flintkote purchased Tiletex, did Flintkote manufacture any asbestos-containing floor tile? A. No. Q. Did the Pioneer Division before the Tiletex purchase manufacture tile? 129 A. No. That was the nucleus of the tile business. Q. Before the purchase of Tiletex, did Flintkote or any of its subsdiaries or divisions sell any asbestoscontaining floor product that might have been manufactured by another company? A. I don't believe so, no. Ql Referring to Exhibit 6, which was your letter dated May 2, 1968, did you send a letter containing the same information to any other company or person during that period of time? A. I don't remember that I did. No, I don't remember. Q. Have you ever had your deposition taken before with regard to an asbestos lawsuit? A. N o . Q. Did you review any documents before this deposition in preparing for this deposition? A. No. Ql Since your retirement from Flintkote, have you seen any documents concerning Flintkote's involvement in the manufacture and sale of asbestos-containing products? A. Since my retirement, have I seen any documents? Ql Right. A. What's the rest of the question? Q. Concerning Flintkote's involvement in- the sale or manufacture of asbestos-containing products? . 130 A. I may have. Q. Under what circumstances was that? MR. SCHROETER: He didn't say it was. He said may have been. Qt What circumstances may that have been? MR. SCHROETER: That calls for speculation. Q. What Caused you to believe that you may have seen some documents ? A. Well, during the transition period, I see there was a letter here with my name on it several months after I retired. I don't recall having seen it, but it might have been forwarded to me. That's one example. Q. At any time since your retirement, have you seen any documents that were shown to you in contemplation of testimony in an asbestos case? A. N o . Q. Did you maintain any of your Flintkote files with you wen you retired? A. N o . Q. Did you ever attend any AIA meetings, Asbestos Information Association? A. N o. Q. Did you ever receive copies of minutes or other 131 publications from that organization? A. No, not that I remember, no. Q. During your time at Flintkote, do you recall any strikes that occurred at the.Flintkote mine? A. ' No. Ql Do you recall any strikes -- Strike that. Do you recall any work stoppages as a result of workers' complaints about health hazards at the mines? A. N o . Q. Are you familiar with the Blue Diamond operation of Flintkote? A. No. MR. STAMOS: That's all. MR. SILBERFELD: Anybody else? I have nothing further. With respect to the original, can we stipulate that the reporter is relieved of his obligation under our code at least with respect to the original transcript, that he can forward it to Mr.Schoerter and Mr.Schroeter will see to it that the witness reviews it, that the witness signs it -- MR. COHEN: I have some questions. I take back everything I just said. 132 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. COHEN: j & My name is Roy Cohen and I'm from Porzio, Bromberg ' & Newman. I represent Lake Asbestos. You had testified before in response to some questions that you were involved in the selling of raw asbestos fiber for Flintkote Mines; is that right, sir? j i A Yes. Q. That was sometime between '59 and 1969? A That's right. Q. Did your responsibility during that time period also have within it purchase of asbestos fiber from other companies? A From other mines -- Ql Other mining companies . A. Yes. 0. When you recalled in response to questions that Flintkote Mines, Ltd.'s purchased asbestos fiber from Johns-Manville and A.C.L, from what do you draw that knowledge? A. Well, I draw that knowledge from the fact that our principal sources of sales were to other mines, and I recall selling fiber to Johns-Manville and buying fiber from them. And the mine would buy fiber for the Flintkote plants. If the Flintkote plants had a requirement for fiber, they would funnel it through the mines so we could get an inter-mine discount. Negotiations with these other mines would be handled by me because I would put the heat on the companies that were selling Flintkote fiber to buy some fiber from me as a means of disposing of our fiber without a great sales expense. Q. With response to the question of whether or not Flintkote Mines, Ltd. purchased asbestos fiber from Lake Asbestos, you first said, that you might have purchased from Lake and later you said you had thought you purchased from Lake. A. I said we might have purchased from Lake because I do recall Lake was very anxious to sell us a 4T fiber. It's used in asbestos cement pipe, it's for our asbestos cement pipe at Ravena, Ohio, run by the Orangeburg Division of thei-Flintkote Company. I don't recall that Lake was ever in the position to buy any of my fiber, and whether we bought.-some from them or not, I'm not really quite sure. We may have bought from Lake. Q. You don't have any reference or recollection of any specific documents or items that would substantiate it? A. No, it would show in our records or yours whether we had. 134 That would be handled in Canada between the two mines Ql If Lake's own records reflect that indeed did not take place, your recollection could be wrong? A. I will accept that. Q. As far as the method in which this asbestos fiber would be transported to a particular Flintkote plant, not necessarily with" reference to Lake, but in general, would the asbestos fiber be delivered directly to Flintkote Mines? A. No, it would be delivered directly to the plant, Flintkote plant. It would go from Lake's plant to the Flintkote plant. 0. So as far as Flintkote Mines, Ltd. was concerned, it would be a paper transaction? A. That's right. The billing would be to Flintkote Mines, Ltd. Q. Would you have any recollectiom'or reference to any documents that would indicate where that asbestos fiber would be sent? A. From Lake? Q. From other mining companies. A. I would not have a copy of the invoices, the shipping or anything. All I would get would be the reports to keep score of what we were buying and what we were selling' 1 135 2 to each other, manufacturers association. When I saw them- 3 at the QAMA meetings, I could say the balance is in your i 4 favor, the balance is in my favor, and let's see what we 5 can do. 6 Q. You testified before that you did not have any 7 contact with the Pioneer Flintkote Division; is that correct?} j 8 A. I didn't have any contact with them. They will 9 place their order with Flintkote Mines, Ltd.; the billing ! 10 people up there would take care of it. ! 11 If it was to be shipped from Carey, they placed 12 the order with Carey and Carey would ship to the Pioneer 12 Division. 14 MR. COHEN: I.have nothing further. Thank 15 you, sir. j l j 16 MR. SILBERFELD: Anyone else? Going back j | 17 t o :my dissertation, with respect to the original j I 13 transcript, we will forward it to Mr. Schroeter j | 19 who will see that the witness reviews it and j 20 signs it under penalty of perjury. Mr.' Schroeter will give us notice of changes, and if all that 21 ! 22 is not accomplished within 60 days of the date 22 that Mr. Schroeter gets the transcript, then a copy can be used for all purposes. MR. SCHROETER: Will you. stipulate that Mr. HAS rOS'.X CONNHCriC! "I SA M D ESS, G A L i !J E LL Certified $ t c nc :y r>e j *j o r: er* -A ' ' f_N CONNEC IC o T 1 136 2 Main may sign the original under penalty of perjury 3 MR. SILBERFELD: I said that. 4 MR. LEWIS: May I have one additional 5 stipulation, for use of this deposition in the 6 Burrell and Blair cases which are coming to trial 7 in December of this year, that in the event a 3 signed original is not available by that date, a 9 copy may be used for all purposes? 10 MR. SCHROETER: Yes. The 60-day provision 11 will no doubt cover us, depending on the reporter, 12 of course, but whichever date comes first. MR. STAMOS: We have a trial October 15. The 13 14 Miller case. MR. SCHROETER: The beginning of the Ogden 15 group? 16 MR. STAMOS': Right. You're not in Ogden. 17 We may have a time problem. The same stipulation 13 that a copy can: be used if they are not signed 19 by that time. 20 MR. SCHROETER: On that special problem, I 21 will agree only that a copy may be used if the 22 original has not been signed, only if, first, I 23 have received the original and Mr. Main has at 24 least been able to see it and confer with me 25 SANDERS, GALE a RUSSELL Certified Stenotypc Reporter: 1 2 ^ ' 3 4 5 6 7 3 9 10 | il ! 137 telephonically, and I will, as an officer of the court/ make those representations at the time, and I will let you know. MR. STAMOS: You will make representations to me now you will expedite the transcript to Mr. Main as soon as you get it? MR. SCHROETER: I will do that. (Whereupon, the deposition was concluded at 3:30 p.m.) J . H ."MAIN .' 14 SUBSCRIBED AND SWORN TO BEFORE ME, 15 the undersigned authority, on this the ____ day of 15 _______________ , 1984. 17 13 NOTARY PUBLIC 19 21 22 KJ 74 SANDERS. r>ALE i Ccrtuied S :c,!Oc;-!-c ilipirtsr? 1 2 ( v v 3 4 5 6 7 3 9 IO 1 *; 1*5 15 l I / I y n 1 22 138 WITNESS INDEX PAGE Direct Examination by Mr. Silberfeld..... 7 I i Cross-Examination by Mr. Lewis.......... 115 i Ii Cross-Examination by Mr. Stamos.......... 122 I Cross-Examination by Mr. Cohen.......... 132 II 1 i 1 S A i'ti\5. 'SA LE Certified -rr,,; 1 139 2 EXHIBIT INDEX 3 MAIN PLAINTIFFS' EXHIBIT NO. 4 DESCRIPTION PAGE 5 Warning label containing the words 82 "Contains asbestos dust" 6 Warning label containing the words 82 7 "Caution, contains asbestos fibers avoid creating dust" 3 Warning label containing the words 83 9 "Asbestos, harmfult May cause delayed lung injury" 10 Warning label containing the words 83 ]] "Caution, contains asbestos fibers" Warning label containing the words 83 "Asbestos fibers present, cancer 1 ~ hazard exists" ) 6 Letter dated May 2, 1968 83 15 7 1 8 17 9 IS 10 Letter dated June 4, 1968 Letter dated October 1, 1968 Memorandum dated November 19, 1968 Mmorandum dated November 6, 1969 100 102 104 110 19 J 2 ! 24 SAMDEl A! Certifie :i 0