Document dY52y3G8VzaZ0meJm2aMmqDxQ

S/31 Johns-Manville Sales Corporation Ken-Caryl Ranch Denver, Colorado 80217 (303) 878-1000 November 6, 1981 Mr. Legion C. Kramer ,505 N. Clark Ave. P.0. Box 158 Lakewood, CA 90714 Dear Lee: It was a pleasure to meet you in Palm Springs, and I appre ciate your taking the time to update Jim Reichel and myself on the Lakewood incident. As I promised at our meeting, I'm sending you a copy of an article I found in the Long Beach Press Telegram while I was on the coast. I'm also attaching an office file copy from EPA Region VI in Dallas. This file was given to our local salesman by Mac Weaver who is acting Chief, Water Supply Branch for EPA Region VI. We were given no restrictions on the use of this file. Very truly yours. Olson, Manager Environmental & Engineering Development HLOrbja attachment I bcc: J. Cran 3-01 John Welch AACPP Jim Reichel, CAPCO f/c CAPCO JEN 0013148 m-way/oct r> a The power to destroy by press release he power to tax, said the first TJustice Marshall, involves the t power to destroy. In the d - everyday exercises of the federal bureaucracy, the power to issue a staff press release can have the same effect. Ask the small-business men who used to install urea formaldehyde foam insulation. The story is instructive. Most of us - are at least dimly aware of the immense and arbitrary power of federal agencies. ! Few of us have felt the impact quite so keenly as the foam installers who had nice little businesses just over a year ago. Only 220 are known to be still in -business today. common sense is in short supply. Citing 1,600 consumer complaints -- many of them quite dubious complaints -- staffers took to TV and to the press. Their press release warned in ominous terms that homeowners risked cancer if they installed urea formaldehyde insulation. Staff members urged an immediate ban. In January, by Forty-odd years ago an inventive a 3-2 vote, the commission took German discovered how to turn indecisive action -- not to ban the stuff, formaldehyde resin into foam. Then it but to propose a ban and to invite was found that the foam had excellent comments. On Oct 1, the commission . properties for insulation. No one voted 4-1 to extend the period of delay imagined that the infinitesimal level of for another 130 days. formaldehyde in the final product--less The delay 1b killing the industry. than half of 1 percent -- could present Formerly there were 34 manufacturers of any hazard. the foam insulation. Now there are six. Formaldehyde, after all, is the most common of all industrial chemical compounds. The pungent gas turns up in disinfectants and preservatives, in plywood, draperies, carpeting, shampoo and cosmetics. It puts the permanent press in fabrics. It appears in cigarette 6moke. The makers of Gleem toothpaste, with the approval of the Food and Drug Administration, add a trace of formaldehyde resin to their product. Formaldehyde is all around us. In 1977 a single manufacturer had 12 lants going; one of those plants alone ad a monthly output of 7,500 drum seta. Today the monthly production for the entire industry is about 1,100 drum'sets. Scores of installers, most of them mom-and-pop enterprises, have taken bankruptcy. And as the EPA's decision makes clear, there is still no convincing evidence whatever of serious hazard to humans. The commission's irresponsible conduct has side effects. More than half But on Nov. 24,1980, zealous staffers a million homes have been insulated with of the Consumer Product Safety foam in the past 10 years. If an outright Commission seized upon a study that ban should be imposed, a statement of had been made of the effects of defect presumably would have to be formaldehyde on laboratory rats. The included when the home is sold. In animals were exposed to unrealistically Massachusetts, which imposed its own massive doses of formaldehyde fumes for slate ban, the value of foam-insulated six hours a day, five days a week, for houses has dropped by 26 percent. more than two years. Not surprisingly, This is not the first time the some of the rats developed tumors in commission has acted with such reckless their noses. The study was replicated disregard for human consequence. The this year at New York University commission very nearly destroyed a toy Medical Center. manufacturer in Wisconsin by sheer In any common sense view, the two negligence. Again, it drove a California studies would indicate no significant risk importer to the wall, impounding his to human beings. Indeed, the .'stock at the peak of his Christmas sales Environmental Protection Agency staff, season. Now it's the foam insulators who in an unrelated action, last month looked 8re being ruined. Upon what meat do at the two studies and came to precisely these our Caesars feed that they have that conclusion. But over at the CFSC. grown so great? I CAP CO JEN 0013149 Excerpts from Testimony Presented to the Lakewood City Council Evaluating the Health Effects of Asbestos-Cement Water Pipe July 14,1981 John Gaston California Department of Health Services Mr. Gaston is responsible for drink ing water quality in California. He has been chief of the sanitary engi neering section of the health depart ment since 1968. He holds a mas ter's degree in sanitary engineering from the University of California, Berkeley. Dr. Herbert M. Conrad Water Quality Scientist Dr. Conrad has monitored the Lakewood water supply since 1959. He is president of Ecological Systems Corporation. Dr. Conrad received his PhD in biochemistry from the University of Southern California. We have no problem with the use of asbestoscement pipe in Lakewood. Asbestos in drinking water is an issue that we have been involved with for some time. In looking at the asbestos fiber and water sup ply issues we have seen in California -- [from San Francisco, Marin, Humboldt, and the Cal ifornia Aqueduct] -- there is no problem in Lakewood. A-C pipe when used in proper applications -- as apparently it is in Lakewood -- does not present a hazard to water consumers. The findings of our tests demonstrate that the asbestos fiber content of Lakewood water is minimal. Furthermore, the protective nature of the water itself precludes the subsequent deterioration of the A-C pipelines, which might have served as a secondary source of asbestos fibers. Specific tests were run to determine whether our water was corrosive. We determined that the water is scale-forming and protective. We have shown that A-C pipe is safe and have confirmed these findings by three different methods, not just one. Tests were run using an electron microscope to count the fibers. In all cases, it was found that the fiber content of the water, in all loca tions of the city, was safe and relatively low. The only conclusion that can be drawn from these facts is that the City of Lakewood does not have an asbestos problem with its water system. r.APr.n ,ipm nn-i^-icin Robert S. Bryant American Water Works Assn. Mr. Bryant is the chairman of the Standards Committee for AsbestosCement Pressure Pipe of the Ameri can Water Works Association. Dr. Arthur F. Gelb Chest Disease Consultant and Associate Clinical Professor University of California, Los Angeles Dr. Gelb is a member of the medical staff of Doctors Hospital of Lakewood. He is a specialist in internal medicine and pulmonary diseases. Dr. Gefb and his family are Lakewood residents and receive their wa ter from the city water system. y-\ . ">* The American Water Works Association func tions as the representative of the water pur veying agencies in the United States. One of our functions is to formulate policy based on the understanding and knowledge that our members possess. A typical standards committee such as the asbestos-cement pipe committee will develop and maintain on a five-year cycle ail the stand ards that relate to the manufacture of the pipe, testing and quality assurance. There are also standards that relate to the design and selection of the pipe. There are also standards for the installation of the pipe and all the components that would go into the pipeline to form a water system. We also have manuals that are used concurrently with the installa tion standards to specifically address pipe installation. I am a member of the AWWA committee or ganized to develop a policy statement on the safety of asbestos fibers in drinking water. In listening to the presentation of your report [on A-C pipe], I felt 1 was on traveled ground. We have recently done the same type of work. Our final policy statement will be prepared by our committee. We offer some precautions. But our basic statement is that asbestos-cement pipe is safe when used in accordance with the guidelines that we have established. I have reviewed the report on asbestos in the city water supply. I am in complete agreement with the conclusions of the study. I am a resident of this community and I whole heartedly support the conclusions. I wish to reassure the members of the City Council that the opinions reached are fair. [Asbestos in the drinking water] provides no health hazards to the members of this com munity. CAP CO JEN 0013151 Dr. Kaye Kilburn Professor of Medicine and Director, Environmental Sciences Laboratory, University of Southern California Dr. Kilburn is one of the nation's leading authorities on diseases which are caused by asbestos, in 1978, he was the co-director ofa major sym posium on asbestos associated dis ease held in New York City. He is the author of more than 125 profes sional journal articles on medicine, including four on asbestos-re/ated diseases. Under Dr. Kilburn's direction, the environmental sciences laboratory at USC focuses on the causes of dis ease in the occupational and envi ronmental sectors. Projects include control of lung cancer in shipyard workers, asbestos disease in families of shipyard workers, and the devel opment of health monitoring pro grams for workers. The first thing I would like to say is that to in hale asbestos is hazardous. But this is entirely different than ingesting [drinking or eating] it. If any of you think you can reduce your as bestos hazard by drinking beer, wine, soft drinks, or bottled water, I invite you to do so. But your asbestos fiber concentration will probably go up! So, if you want to be totally safe, you should go off water and all other liquids. I think the point that Dr. Conrad made that we have nonaggressive water is very important. That means that the asbestos that we are go ing to drink in Lakewood -- or in Long Beach and Los Angeles -- is the asbestos that comes out of the Sierras by reason of the Sierras catching rain and draining a certain amount of water [into the California Aquedect]. I spend a good part of my working day seeing people who have been injured by inhaled as bestos. It is not a trivial matter. We figure that less than one percent of in gested asbestos remains in the system. Let's compare that to our lungs. Probably, the lungs retain 50 percent of the asbestos that is inhaled. The primary ingestion of asbestos through water or food is really trivial compared to secondary ingestion from inhalation. I would affirm that asbestos is a hazardous material. But it is basically hazardous by only one mode of entry -- airborne through inha lation. There is really not much we can do about the natural asbestos we are faced with in the wa ter supply. It is like natural radiation from the sun or from the rock that we live on. It is one of those risks we have to accept. There are plenty of things that we have to be very worried about. Asbestos in water is one we don't have to worry about. CAPCO JEN 0013152 CAP CO JEN 0013153 ROBERT S. BRYANT _ standards Committee for Asbestos-Cement Pressure "" Pipe, American Water Works Association, Denver. After my introduction, I think possibly the functioning of the AWWA Standards Committee should be explained to you.. The Standards ' Committees do provide standards and manuals, instruction manuals, for all of the materials that are used in water systems. All the way from reservoir-maintenance and design down to the water meters and customer service and customer .treatment. The Committees in the Standards group that I represent are based on the broad representation of people across the country and is further divided into three groups on each committee and a balance is struck at all times between the using members which you people would be considered in this case, as users, manufacturers and a general interest group, people who do not have a specific interest in the item or element of the water system, but do have general knowledge in serving on the Committee. A typical standards committee such as the asbestos cement pressure pipe committee will develop and maintain on a five year cycle all the standards that relate to the manufacture of the pipe, manufacture, testing, and the guality assurance of the pipe. There are standards that relate to the design and selection of the pipe, more or less the guides for the engineer to employ in selecting the type and size and rating of the pipe that will be used. There are also standards for the installation of the pipe and all the components that wouldgo into that pipeline to form a water system. We also have manuals, in our case M-16 which has been mentioned, that are used concurrently with the installation standards to specifically address the installation, care and feeding of that type of pipe. And then from time to time other committees are formed from the standards committees to address particular policy matters. Thi1 AWWA functions as the representative more or less of the water purveying agencies of the country. Not only this country, but we even have quite a membership in Mexico and Canada, so that we are international in scope. To this extent, one of the functions of the AWWA is to formulate policy that is used for guidance for all of the member organizations, to indicate to people who are concerned what our policy is, based on understanding and knowledge that the organization possesses. In this particular CAPCO JEN 0013154 case, X am a member of an ad hoc committee that was organized a year ago and was charged iast June to develop a policy for the.AIWA on the safety of asbestos fibers in drinking water. In listening to the presentation in your report, I felt X was on travelled ground. We have recently done the same type of work and our.final policy statement will be prepared by our committee and forwarded to our general membership committee and then finally will be approved by the executive committee of the AWWA, we expect this January. The policy statement is very short. It does have some, as always, precautionary statements that follow it, but the basic statement is that asbestos cement pipe is safe when used in accordance with the guidelines that we have established in our various standards for installation and the other M-16, which we like to talk about all the time because we are ^111 in a missionary phase in that to get everybody interested in care of work practices for A-C pipe to accommodate both the construction work and the environment that will be in the pipeline. Briefly, this is the function of the AWWA. We do have a number of committees, the A-C Pipe happens to be the one I am the chairman of. I am happy to be here and if I can help in any way, it's my pleasure. CAP CO JEN 0013155 Mr. Herbert M. Conrad, President, Ecological Systems Corporation, Santa Monica, California The question asked initially is AC pipe safe to use and the anwer to that question is, the AC pipe is safe to use if the water was nonagressive. Specific tests were run to determine whether Lakewood water was indeed agressive or corrosive and aggressiveand scale forming. We ran four tests. One test is the marble test which is used to determine whether the water is super saturated with calcium carbonate. Since calcium carbonate is the substance that * COo\s is released from the water and costs the pipe it is impera tive to learn whether the water is super saturated with it, we ran the marble test. To confirm the marble test and since it is also a standard in the industry, we ran the aggressive index test since we believe that no .one particular test should be used in a case of this importance. We ran it as ah confirmatory test. Bothof these tests are based upon the Ph of the water, the alkalinity of the water and the hardness of the water. We determined as quoted in the report that the water is indeed scale forming and protective. The aggressive i ndex is divided into 3 sections:if the aggressive index is less them 10 the water is considered to be aggressive; if the agressive index is between 10 and 12, it is con sidered to be moderately aggressive and if it is greater than 12, it is considered to be protective. The average of the well waters tested from all the wells in the City of' Lakewood was about 12.4, which is considerably above the minimum for being classified as a protective water, lie also wanted to see whether there was any erosion or destruction of the AC pipe after being in service in the City of Lakewood for several different periods. One was a new section of line, one was a section of line that was twb years old and one section was about 25 years old. Different locations start at the top. Tests were run using electron microscope to count the fibers and in all cases it was found that the fiber countent of the water CAP CO JEN 0013156 Page Two Mr. Conrad in all locations of the city was relatively low and safe. If you read the report carefully, there is a table which gves numbers of fibers. And, I want to caution you on the interpretation of these numbers. We are using statis tics to prove certain things quite frequently, and the variability of the test and the precision at the low end of the spectrum that we are .foced to measure is such that I wouldn't place great credence on the difference between o ne number and another. The take home lesson of the table s hould be the fiber content of the water is low, that the f iber content has not significantly increased over the ground water or well water suppliesand that the AC pipe did not contribute to the fiber content. Finally we took a cross section of the AC pipe that had been in the ground over 25 years, had it analyzed by the UnitedStates "Resting Company as well as to verify that the component of the scale was indeed calcium carbonate and that was their finding. So we have really shown that AC pipe is safe and have confirmed these findings by 3 different methods, not rely on one. One is the extended chemical test, the second is theelectron microscope and the third is by using X-ray compression technique. The answer to the question is AC pipe safe to use had to be yes and when I summarize^the data for the report, it came up with the conclusion that the fiber content of the Lakewood water is minimum, .2. the asbestos cement lining did not contribute to the fiber content of the water and 3. there is no apparent asbestos problem in the City of Lakewood. CAP CO JEN 0013157 Hr. John Gaston, Chief, Sanitary Engineering Section, California Department of Health Services. As part of our state wide regulatory program involved in domestic water supply we developed a number of water gality regulations-that appear in the California Administrative Code. One of those is drinking- water quality regulations. They do not specifically address a.sbestos in a conclusive way in terms of quantity. Second to those regulations is a operations maintenance regulation we have termed the waterworks standard. In the waterworks standards, we indicate that it is sensible for water utilities in the State of California to use a number of different types of pipe in their distribution system, cast iron, steel, plastic, varieties on the above and asbestos cement pipe. We do riot advocate the use.of one above the other and we indicate toat our regulations in the material that we have indicate that they are all, when used in the proper sense, are safe, if you will, and protect the public health in an equal way. As Dr. Conrad `indicated we have no problem with the use of AC pipe in Lakewood. That is the choice 'of the people of Lakewood and in as much as you have .nonaggressive water, it is something which is perfectly appropriate for you to look at heare. The issue of asbestos-in water supply is another issue .in which we have been involved for some time.- In looking "at all the asbestos and water supply issues -that we have ^een in California from the San Francisco, Marin County, Humboldt County, California Aqueduct most due to weather situations where we have what I consider to be a gross contamination of asbestos from the natural state. There is not a problem in Lakewood. This is so far off the bottbm of the scale that it is really not a problem. AC pipe when used in proper applications as apparently it is being used here does not present a hazard to the water consumers, and does not present a hazard to the people installing the pipe and does not present a hazard or CAP CO JEN 0013158 Page 2 Mr. Gaston any problem that we can see. The issue of AC pipe has been rolling around for quite some time. It is indeed involved with the issue of asbestos and the inhalation and ingestion of asbestos in some cases and this is one of them. It is unfortuante. because really the two should not be tied together. We anticipate that indeed there will be some sort of asbestos and drinking water standard somewhere d own the road. I cannot conceive that the situation in Lakewood would place you in any danger of being in violation of that standard unless an astronomical or unforeseen changes are made that I cannot possibly forecase. I am happy to be here and I will address any questions that you may have. CAP CO JEN 0013159 Dr. Kaye Kilburn, Professor of Medicine and Director, Environmental Sciences Laboratory Ladies and Gentlemen, Mr. Mayor, it is a pleasure to join you this evening and I think the first thing I would like to say is to inhale asbestos is hazardous. What I am going to come to in a very few points is that this is entirely different than ingesting it and the s econd point is that the degree of hazard can be cal culated guir'e easily. I have run through a set of calculations that I will share with you. I am much more worried in the use of AC pipe about the pipe makers than I am about the people who drink the w ater that runs through the pipe. My second concern I might just point out about the practices of using the pipe before it gets buried under ground where it is no longer of any great concern. X might p.oint out that the biggest body of fresh water V inthe world is heavily contaminated with asbestos--that .is Lake Superior--the reason it is contaminated is for a.about 25 years we have permitted the dumping of . - ,'Q i -Itachinite from the Mesabi range iron mines into Lake Superior. So this is not a small problem nor a problem that-hasn't had a lot of attention for at least the last 10 or 12 years. So much so that there was a symposium.about S years ago in North Carolina sponsored >y the National Institute for Environmental Health Sciences on ingested asbestos. It is also true that if you feed goats asbestos, you can sample asbestos having gotten into the goat's circulation. But to do that you would have to feed a whole handful of asbestos and that is probably something like a 900 year supply. So unless anyone is planning to live as long as Metueala and acts like a goat, they are-unlikely to' Htthu&teh . . CAP CO JEN 0013160 i i age Three Dr. Kilburn . see that you have 24 times the doej 'of asbestos from your work shift exposure. If we*assume the bowel is open ended and anyone who doesn't have an open ended bowel, please see me after the meeting, there isn't much ingestion that remains in the system. We figure less than It of ingested asbestos remains in the system. Let's . compare that to the lung. Probably there is disposition of SOt of the asbestos that.is.inhaled. So the inhala tion of 24 million particles during the working day -- that half of those or 12 million remain or are deposited. Of those 50t are clear.. We are down to 6 million. So the dose of residual material is somewhere in the order of 1 two hundreths which from just one working day is in the lung from the inhalation. Of course you may have peascm to retain this. If you retain the asbestos, what's the medical information on the effect of that retained asbestos. Well, we know that from the lungs it is distribute'd all over the body. There is not substantial evidence yet that disease has been produced by the in gestion of asbestos either in man or experimental animals. Of course, part of the reason is that you have such a colossally greater amount gettint into the system by inhallation being cleared up the mucusocillary escalator and swallowed that you've got probably 10 to a hundred times.asmuch as your inhaled dose that is being ingested; So that primary ingestion through water or food is really t fc trivial compared to secondary ingestion from inhalation anyway. So I guess if you want to be totally safe you want to go off water and all other liquids and you obviously * shouldn't spray water into the air where it might F'-r r'v. evaporate and you could inhale the particles. ' ?1 : : Those to me represent the worst case issue.s in the i. ; problem and although I would affirm again that asbestos i CAP CO JEN 0013161 Page Four Sr. Kilburn is a hazardous material/ it is basically a hazardous material by one mode of entry. That is the airborne mode and not by ingestion mode. So that I think (we) have safe water in the sense of its relative safety. .. There*is really hot much we'can do about the natural asbestos that we are faced with in the water supply. It is like natural radiation from the sun or from the rock that we live' oh or also find in the High Sierras. It is one of those risks we have to accept. There are plenty of things that we have to be very worried about. This is one I feel and am tempted to say we don't have to worry about. CAPCO JEN 0013162 Question from Vice Mayor Wagner to Mr. Bryant regarding water from the MHD system compared to water that comes from the north. Mr. Bryant: In our own system we use water from all three sjsurces to varying percentages. Our basic water supply is our own aqueduct and it provides us at the present time with close to 85t of our use. He do use what we call state water_ which comas from northern California in very small OjaountSf a few percentage points at the present time. And, the balance of the water, I should say that our own, is that we do use a lot of well water within our own system. The balance of this then (is) Metropolitan Water District Hater which right now we are using around 12% of our total consumption so that at this time we do not use a lot of water from the Metropolitan Hater District and from their' twCL sources. The difference that.I would characterize, the water I am talking about their business here, but basically the water that we receive from the Owens Valley is our softest water in terms of dissolved solids. The next in order of `hardness is our well water and then comes what we call state water. The hardest water of course is the Metropolitan v District .Water. And in our system, we attempt to blend Metropolitan Water District water within our ability to do so at a time, simply to produce a water what has optimum hardness which is as low as possible. < Question from Mr. Shepherd re why is asbestos being mined and what is being put into the air when you wash your clothes. (Mr.Stover answers and refers rest of question to Dr. Kilburn) Dr. Kilburn: as far as we can measure asbestos in air from aerosols, (2) such as Bridal Veil Falls and Xosemite, which would be a prime example, it is below the levels which we find in most metropolitan areas from the use of all the products fJ.'.i'i., vjhich sre still in place. CAP CO JEN 0013163 Page Two Questions: J./m/* In other words in New YOrk,- New Jersey, there is New York metropolitan area, you can measure asbestos in .the air at levels that are about l/10th to l/20th of . be national standard.. I am not aware of any demonstration that has ever been, made using heavily contaminated areaU'sj C uclsas lake Superior water, here the tachinite dumping area, or High Sierra water which is brought over the open deposits that will approach the asbestos levels in New York or Washington. Actually, the levels in Los Angeles and San Francisco are quite a bit lower--they are about a tenth as high as that. The answer to mining asbestos in the United States--we don't mine it any more,: There were about 7 small mines that were open as late as 1958 or 60.' The asbestos now being used which has fallen off drastically since 1970 or even 1975 is in many nonsubstituable items. Mr. Stover mentioned several of these. There are several I would not want to try to see substituted quite honestly. One is brake pads and brake linings. I hesitate to think how*-it would be like driving down the freeways of Los Angeles County without brake linings in place. X hesitate Cc-l|0ldvT to think- of- trying to shift gears in my cars which are manual transmission cars without asbestos in the clutch facings. Recently we' completed a study in Mount Sinai in New York which shows that probably there is less than trivial exposure to asbestos from brake linings, fhe study was a study of brake liners, almost 2,000 of them and they showed so little asbestos dis'ease that even after 20 to 3S`years of exposure that it wasn't statistically significantly different from auto mechanics who have never touched brake linings CAP CO JEN 0013164 Page Three Questions So one of the spectors that haunted us for awhile -was- iian exposure hazard to the pedestrain 'every 1 time you put on your brakes.. We can answer now is negative. It is possible to deactivate asbestos with heat and fortunately that is about the amount of heat ' ' cn that is produced on your brake drums or -your brake plates '.'-'hen Ahe pads are applied and you undergo a stop. So as we learn more about it, I think I would agree with the last gentleman who spoke that there are some hazards we really can't do anything to minimize except to quit breathing the air and quit drinking the water. I would certainly agree with better work practices. CAPCO JEN 0013165 I certainly agree with better work practices if there has been shoddy contracting as has been alluded to. I think . the recommendations that were suggested for doing something about this need to be taken to heart. But I am a little bit reluctant to give up brakes and clutch facings at the moment. water Hr. Bryant: (question regarding forthcoming statement of policy) (The statement of policy)is remarkably so they are just about the same as your recommendations that were contained in the report. Without looking them up basically that the under lying recommendations were that the installation of the pipe be made in accordance with the manuals and the standards that we have and that further investigations be either made or continuing investigations be observed so that should any positive information develop over the long period of time that we would be cognizant of that and distribute this information to our members. I think this basically paraphrases the remarks that we made with policy. Mayor Van Nostran questions where do they mine asbestos in the United States. Dr. Xillin there has not been an active. US asbestos mine since about 1959. There are enormous mines in Quebec Province in Canada and most of the pressed tile asbestos the is ^sed to make brake linings, gloves and suits and so on including most of what is put into Johns Manville pipe comes from Quebec Province but the last-mine in California was the Caliga and I think it closed in 1959,58 or 60. Mayor Van Nostran questions does the manufacture of the pipe take place in the area here Dr. Killin... in Long Beach, yes CAP CO JEN 0013166 Mayor Van Nostran, and under what conditions is it control led as far as the manufacture as far as the exposure of the people to the product. Dr. Killian Z surmise that it has been well inspected by Cal Osha and so that the exposure is at the threshold limit value of 2 fibers per millilitre- of air which is the legal standard in the United States at the present time. Z can't swear on a stack of bibles. Z have not been through that particular plant but Z am quite aware that Johns Manvi'lle has been under the gun con siderably and that has been an inspected work place. As many of you are aware our shipyards in Los Angeles County mainly Long Beach have had some 300,000 workers in them in the last 40 years and that is' where most of the people who carry a big burden of asbestos received their exposure. There is now not asbestos installed in Navy ships or in ships being built for the navy or in most* ships being built- for any purpose in the United States. So the major exposure risks are in asbestos removal. The big one that is staring us in the face is if the battleship, "New Jersey," is brought down from Seattle and deactivated before Mr. Reagan's Navy it's probably one of the richest sources of as bestos on the West Coast. Zf that's dismantled in Long Beach Harbor and the winds blow north, we've got something to worry about as far as asbestos in the air. Vide Mayor Wagner questions to Mr. Bryant, "Where is roughly the point where you feel you would start to be concerned about the breakdown of AC pipe in terms of agressive index. Z am aware of the 3 general groupings, but there are also indications, there seem to be indications in the literature that at one time numbers . somewhere around 11 'above or below 11 was considered as non-' aggressive. CAP CO JEN 0013167 Mr. Bryant Well, the agressive index as it exists right now the level of 10 is really a very adequate there is a safety factor built into that so that if you do have a 10 this would be a good reason not to use. the pipe if that were your only consideration. There are other ways around this that allow you to use the pipe if there are other means that you have to address and this would mean treatment of the water that can be done to modify this aggressive condition that is in the water. CAP CO JEN 0013168 ! i / CAP CO JEN 0013169  r-- Johns-Manville Sales Corporation Ken-Caryl Ranch Denver, Colorado 60217 (303)979-1000 November 6, 1981 i Hr. James Relchel CAP CO P.O. Box 11425 Santa Ana, CA 92711 Dear Jim: Good seeing you again, even for a brief period. I've xeroxed the testimony of the witnesses Legion Kramer had at the Lakewood city council meeting and I am attaching a copy for your information. HLO:bja attachment CAPCO JEN 0013147