Document dVwbdY8jek9X91RB7zOg4x79

IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT FOR THE NORTHERN DISTRICT OF ILLINOIS EASTERN DIVISION THE UNITED S TATES OF AMERICA, Plaintiff, vs . OUTBOARD MARINE CORPORATION AND MONSANTO COMPANY, Defendants ) ) No. 78 C 1004 ) ) The deposition of ROBERT E. KELLER, called by the Plaintiff, the United S tates of America, for examination pursuant to notice and pursuant to the Rules of Civil Procedure for the taking of depo sitions, taken before Thea L. Urban, a Notary Public in and for the County of Cook, State of Illinois, and a Certified Shorthand Reporter of said State, at the offices of Kirkland & Ellis, 200 East Randolph Drive, Chicago, Illinois 60601, on the 28th day of May, A.D. 1981, commencing at 9:30 o'clock a.m. PRESENT: MR. JAMES T. HYNES , (Deputy Chief , Civil Division Uni ted S tates Atto rney's Office 219 South Dearborn Street, Room Chicago, Illinois 6 0604 ) , 1486 appeared on behalf of the United S tates of America; ""Tkea |_. Urban Certified Sf"tCnd Re porter ------------- UVi ^rutn L'1 'C'r=!le Street a tCcino, | I! me Is- 60603 HARTOLDMONOOQ7865 2 PRESENT: (Continued) MS. ROSEANN OLIVER, ( Phe1an, Pope & John, Ltd. 30 North LaSalle Street Chicago, 111inois 6 0 6 0 2 ) , and MS . JOANNA NEW, (Martin, Craig, Ches ter & Sonnens chein 115 South LaS al1e Street Chicago, I11inois 60603), appeared on behalf of Outboard Marine Corporation; MR. BRUCE A. FEATHERS TONE, MR. ROBERT E. SHAPIRO, (Kirkland & Ellis 200 East Randolph Drive Chicago, Illinois 6 0 6 01) , . appeared on behalf of Mons an to Comp any. "Theo I_- LJvk^n (^ertifieci SU-i!i<ynd [Reporter1 134 'F'outli [__n Street C^.!~ i s o n c, |^inci9 6C603 HARTOLDMON0007866 INDEX WITNESS: ROBERT E. KELLER By Mr. Hynes By Ms. Oliver By Mr. Featherstone Direct Cros s Redirect Recross 4 209 163 215 216 223 224 E_XH_I_B_I_TS_ Keller-OMC Deposition Exhibit Marked for ID No. 1 192 CERTIFIED QUESTIONS Page Line 201 12 205 15 |_. Urban Certified 5^ ortkcmcl ['Reporter' ----------- 134 ^outk | a Street 0 iCt?go, | llinoir 60603 HARTOLDMONOOQ7867 Keller - direct 4 (Witness sworn.) ROBE R T E. KELLER, called as a witness herein, having been first duly sworn, was examined and testified as follows: DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. HYNES : Q Would you please state your name and spe11 your last name for the record. A My name is Robert Keller, K-e-l-l-e-r. Q Where are you employed currently, Mr. Keller? A Monsanto Company, St. Louis. Q What is your current address? A Home address or company address? Q Home address. A It is 10142 GlenfieId, G-l-e-n-f-i-e-l-d, Terrace, St. Louis, Missouri 63126. Q Would you please state what your educational background is, s tarting with college, where you got your degree, what year, what your concentrations were. A I have a B.S. Degree in Chemistry, an M.S. Degree in Chemistry and a Ph.D. Degree in Chemistry, al1 from the Uni versity of Iowa. Q What were the approximate dates of each of those degrees? ~Tkec I_. CerbfiJ ortRnd Reporter ________ 134 Rcutk |_a RciHe Rtreet ^ HARTOLDMON0007868 \ Keller direct 5 A The B.S. Degree was in 1947, the M.S. Degree in 1949 and the Ph.D. in 1951. Q In either your Master's in Chemistry or your Ph.D. , were there any specializations that you took? A My maj or for the Master's and Ph.D. Degrees was Analy tical Chemis try. My minor was Physical Chemistry. Q Would you just briefly exp lain what analytical chemistry is and physical chemistry? A Primarily analytical chemistry involves the identification and measurement of different chemical species, such as organic and inorganic types of materiaIs in al1 types of products. Q And physical would be? A Physical chemistry is study of primarily what is known as physical properties of chemicals and related materials. Q Have you taken any more formal education past your Ph.D. level? A No, I have not. Q Have you published any articles or been co author of any articles in the field of chemistry? A Yes. Tbeo 1_. Urban (3eriiffed RkcRvind Reporter 134 Routii j_a ' >rs 1 Ie Rtreet a icooo, Illinois' 6C603 HARTOLDMONOOQ7869 Keller - direct 6 Q Could you briefly state what they were. If you have a litany of 50 articles, I do not expect you to go through them, but as best you can. A I published rather extensively earlier in ray career and these publications appeared primarily in analytical technical journals in the United States. Q What was the general subject matter of these article s ? A Directed towards determination of organictype materials in a variety of raatricies products. Q You say earlier on in your career. Would you put a date on that? A That would be a time frame of the first 15 years. Q Somewhere between '51 and '65, somewhere in that area? A Correct. Q These were documented in analytical or technical journals and these are published to the community as a whole rather than an internal publi cation? A That's right. These are well recognized technical journals, such as the Analytical Chemical Journal, which is a journal out of the American Chemistry "tbea |_. Urban Certified Sf ortRnd Reporter -------- I3U Routk |_a Rdilfe Rtreet ^ HARTOLDMON0007870 Keller - direct As sociation published in the Uni ted States. Q Are you currently a member of any professional or honorary societies? A Yes. Q Which are those? A American Chemical Society. Q Any others? A Society of Applied Spectroscopy, Sigma Psi, which is a technical profes sional society. Those are the p rincipa1 ones. Q Are there any technical qualifications to become a member in any of these three societies you mentioned? A A degree, college degree or certain period of demonstrated proficiency without a degree. Q Have you been an officer in any of these societies at any point? A Yes . Q Which ones,and as best you recall, the office you held and the dates. A The principal office would be the Society of Analysts, which is part of the American Chemical Society. This is the St. Louis section and I held three offices, the last one being Chairman of this group. TU [_ U t'Idcih ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- l^eportef _______________________________ SM ^outn j_ex Street icono. Illinois 6C603 HARTOLDMONOOQ7871 Keller - direct 8 Q Do you recall about what date that was, the time period when you were Chairman? MR. FEATHERSTONE: Approximation is fine. BY THE WITNESS: A 15 years ago. BY MR. HYNES : Q When did you join Monsanto? A 1952 . Q Shortly after you received yourPh.D .? A Correction to the re cord. Do you want me to go ahead and - MR. FEATHERSTONE: The pending question, Doctor, is when you joined Monsanto. BY THE WITNESS: A I joined Monsanto in 1954. BY MR. HYNES: Q Prior to joining Monsanto, could you briefly trace your work his tory as to where you worked and what your duties were? A I was a research chemist at Smith, Klein & French Laboratories in Philadelphia in the Research Department. Q What was the period of your employment there? A Approximately two years. ea |_. UrU CertrieJ 5kortkcmj [Reporter _______ 134 ^outh |_a a \coao, Illinois' 60603 HARTOLDMONOOQ7872 Keller - direct 9 Q Would that be approximately from when you received your Ph.D. Degree unti1 you joined Monsanto? A Yes. MR. FEATHERSTONE: Wait until Mr. Hynes completes his ques tion be fore you respond. BY MR. HYNES : Q Prior to working at Smith, Klein & French, did you have any other employment prior to that in the field of chemistry? A Yes. Q Where was that andwhen was that? A That was an Assistant Professorship at the University of Iowa in the Chemistry Department. Q What were thedates oftheprofessorship? MR. FEATHERSTONE: As professor? . MR. HYNES: As professor. BY THE WITNESS: A 1950. BY MR. HYNES: Q Prior to that, do you recall any other employ ment in the field of chemistry? A Only graduate assistantship in school chemistry. Q Would you just briefly explain the work you did at Smith, Klein & French in Philadelphia, what the ~[~bea 1_. Urban Certified SC ortRnd Reports V 134 R ou tk |_o Rotle Street (Rkic^.'io, | I !mcis 60603 HARTOLDMONOOQ7873 Keller - direct 10 Research Department did, what your duties were? A The duties there, I was a member of the Analytica1 Department in the Research Department. My work was directly toward development of new methods for analysis of pharmaceutical-type products. Q Would you give me an example of what you mean by me thod of ana lysis for pharmaceutical-type products ? A An example would be interest in determining the rate at which time disintegrating capsules would dissolve or if a me thod was needed to determine how fast active components of these capsules dissolved,for this, a method specifically for' these components was needed;for this purpose, then you develop in that case an instrumental type me thod for developing this. (Brief interruption.) BY MR. HYNES: Q Would I be correct in stating it was a method of determining certain physical properties, a method to analyze the physical properties of these pharmaceuticals? A Yes, more directly the chemical composition rather than physical properties. Q And your time at Smith, Klein & French was spent in the Analytical Department of the Research ------------- -- -... -- "Tbea I_. LJrban Rei-lifted Rhoi'tRnd Reporter _______ 134 RautF |_a Ralle Rtreet CFFicaeto, Illinois 60603 HARTOLDMONOOQ7874 Keller - direct 11 Department, is that correct? A Correct. Q Am I correct then in 19 5 4 you joined Monsanto from Smith, Klein? A Correct. Q What was your first positionwith Monsanto and where was it located? A Senior Research Chemist in the 0rganic Chemicals Division of Monsanto, located in St, Louis. Q What were your duties as a senior research chemis t? A My duties involveddevelopment of analytica1 procedures needed by the Organic Chemicals Division. Q What were the types of analy tical procedures needed by it that you worked? A This covered a variety of chemical instru mental techniques directed toward certain specific organic products , intermediates and s tarting materials. MR. HYNES: Could you re ad tha t answer. (Answer read.) BY MR. HYNES: Q I am just trying to get it clear in my own mind. These chemical and instrumental techniques, "T"bea 1_ CerliU ort''(jnd Reporter IM Rcutk |_a Rdlle Street a \cono, Illinois 60605 ------------------ HARTOLDMONOOQ7875 A Keller - direct 12 these were used to measure various reactions, properties, things of that nature within the chemical products themselves? A Yes. 11 was used to aid chemis ts who were developing new products and new processes to follow the presence or absence of these various materials in that work. Q Would I be correct in saying that if you are dealing with a new chemical or an experimental chemical, for want of a better word, it would be to follow the reactions of the chemical to see that it does do what it is anticipated on doing? A Yes . Q How long were you working as a senior re search chemist in the Organic Chemicals Division in St. Louis? A Approximatelytwo years. Q Were yourduties substantially the same during that period of time? A Yes. Q Wha t was your next position with Mons an to ? A Project Leader in the same department. Q Did your duties change when you became a project leader? A Only in scope in type of pro j ects, all directed "Thee |_. Urban led 154 ^outli |_a 5*3He 5treet a iCOOO, ll'moir 60603 HARTOLDMONOOQ7876 Keller - direct 13 toward analy tical work. . Q What do you mean by your duties changed only in scope and type of products? A 11 was still analytical chemistry and involved support help by another person or two as a project leader. Q In other words, you had a couple of people assisting you, you were doing the same basic analytica1 work you had? A With additional responsibilities. MR. FEATHERS TONE: Wait until Mr. Hynes complete his question, Doctor, before you respond. BY MR. HYNES : Q You just had a couple of people assisting you on it? A Yes. Q How long were you a project leader? A Approximately two years. Q What was your next position? A Group Leader. Q How did your duties change then as a leader f rom pro j ect leader? A Again, this consisted of expanded duties in the analytical area with increased emphasis on certain -------------- "Thee |_. -------------------------------------------------------CjeHihed <3t1crtkt?nd [Reporter ________ 11)4 ^outn J_o ^c*He ^j-treet o ICfP<?0, 11! inc 19 60603 HARTOLDMONOOQ7877 Keller - direct 14 in strumen tal te chniques. Q Would you explain what this increased emphasis was on certain instrumental techniques? _ A This was a period in which new instrumenta1 developments were coming from commercial manufacturers such as in f rared spectroscopy and I was involved with application and use of te chniques of this type. Q The infrared spectroscopy I assume is one of the types of in struments you were working on at the time? A Yes. Q Would you j us t briefly explain how you would go about taking the infrared spectroscopy,as an example, what your duties or involvement would be in analyzing this new piece of equipment, how you would apply it to the work at Mons anto? A Yes. The infrared spectroscopy is a too 1 powerful for determining organic types of chemica1s. It has a capability for showing structural functional groups in these chemicals. This makes it a technique that has con siderable specificity and it also is a technique that is easily quantified in terms of measuring how much is present. 11 is also a rapid technique. ................................ ..................- .................................................................. .--- eo |_. U-U (3eT'ti^ioJ [Reporter---------- i 34 |_a Street C^kicji^o, (Hinds 60603 HARTOLDMONOOQ7878 Keller - direct 15 Q What would your work involve with this instru ment at the time when you first got it at Monsanto and you first started working with it as a group leader? A This involved applying this to the develop- ` ment of products and processes involving many types of organic materials - MR. FEATHERS TONE: Was it essentially fitting in a new piece of equipment into the techniques that you had been using or developed? BY THE WITNESS: A Yes, one of several as an example. BY MR. HYNES: Q We are just dealing with the IR spectroscopy as the types of studies you had. _ Would the other instrumental techniques' go through the same processes as you explained for the IR?/ A Yes. Q Would you have occasion to modify the basic technique, the basic instrument that you got that was developed by some other company and modified it to the uses of Monsanto that you would want to put it to? MR. FEATHERSTONE: Are you talking about technique or instrument? You have both in your question. eo |_. lOrOn RkortRnd Reporter -------------- 134 Routk \_o Rolle Rtreet (^kicd'r'o. Illinois- 60603 HARTOLDMONOOQ7879 Keller direct 16 MR. HYNES : He was talking instrumental techniques. Let us use that. BY MR. HYNES : Q Would you on occasion modify the instrumenta1 technique that was developed by some other country for use at Honsanto? MR. FEATHERSTONE: Some other coun try? MR. HYNES: Did I say country, excuse me, company. MR. FEATHERSTONE: You are to read company instead of country in your question. BY THE WITNESS: A Yes. BY MR. HYNES: Q As a group leader, how long were you in that position? A Approximately seven years. Q Were your duties throughout this time sub stantially the same? A Yes. Q In this period of time, were you or the people within your group involved in developing your own instrumental techniques other than modifying basic techniques, which instrumental techniques you had acquired from other companies? "7" he a |_. Certified 1 cT-11 jnd [~?e porter IM Sootk SSe Street _____ ] I i n <r i e 60603 HARTOLDMON0007880 Keller direct 17 A Not my immediate group. , Q There were other groups within Monsanto that might have done that? A Yes. Q Would you have been involved with those other groups in any way other than just receiving information from them about the techniques that they were developing? A No. Q Is thereanything else concerning your duties as a group leader in this seven years that were what you consider significant duties which you have not men tioned? A NO . Q I take it that you had a number of people working for you as a group leader? A Yes, a small group. Q Wouldthere beproject leadersworking for you, is that a usual chain of command from project leader to group leader? A Yes. Q All of this was still within the Organic Chemicals Division at St. Louis? A Yes. Q What was your next position after group leader ........................................ ..............-.............................................. ~T^ec |_. RertRocJ RhortRnd Reporter . 12-4 R ouln |_a Street a ic[[!inois 6G603 HARTOLDMONOOQ7881 Keller - direct 18 with Monsanto? A Senior Research Group Leader,, Q About when did you start in that position, what year? A It is whatever these years add up to that I have given you. Q Somewhere around 1965? A All right, 1965. Q '6 4 or '66, that's fine. What were your duties as a senior research group leader? A Expanded duties covering analytical chemistry and method development primarily. Q Expanded duties covering analytical chemistry and what was the other? A Method development. Q In general, were these expanded duties ? A Again, this involved additiona1 instrumental techniques. Q Is that what method development is, instru mental techniques, is that correct? A Yes. Q I just want to get this straight. Were there other group leaders who had Tteo L- Uf'tcin Cjerti' led crtSnd [Reporter iV; Soutk L_* S-Se Street Sr [Cc , | I : i nci9 60603 HARTOLDMONOOQ7882 Keller direct 19 certain types of instrumental techniques to determine in their j urisdiction when you were a group leader that now as a senior res earch group leader these various group leaders and instrumentation methods that they had basically reported to you and you were in volved in al1 of them? A There were certain instrumental techniques that were used for analytical problems in our groups. Q Am I correct that as senior research group leader, you then became involved in more instrumental techniques and methods than you had been before as a group leader? A Yes . Q Any thing additional in the duties, your expanded duties that we have not discus sed as senior research group leader? A No,, Q How long were you in that position? A Approximately five years. Q If my math is right, somewhere around 1970 was when you moved into your next position with Monsanto? A Correct. Q What was that? A Section Manager of the Analytical and Physical |__. Urban [Reporter 13^ 'yioulk |_a Street Jliinoic 6C603 HARTOLDMONOOQ7883 Keller - direct 20 Chemistry and Instrument Development Section. Q Could you explain what your duties were as section manager? A These were primarily administrative duties involving management of these groups related to direc tion of the groups' resources, including facilities, equipment, budgets, personnel problems. Q As section manager, were you at that time directly involved with any of the research materials of the instrument development or analy tical te chniques ? A The groups themselves have responsibility through the head of the group for the technical work carried out. They would take on proj ects which would come from our divisions. We were a support unit for our Organic Chemicals Division and which at that time was a division of corporate Monsanto. We were in a support role where we accepted work upon request from clients. These were the business groups of the Organic Chemicals Divis ion. ' MR. FEATHERSTONE: I think the question was, Doc tor, whether you were directly involved in any of the technical work done by the people under you. BY THE WITNESS: A In an administrative role. --------------------------------------------------------- ----------- ---------------------------------------------------- - ea !_. LJi'betn SertLeJ S^oftkcinel Reporter ________ IM Soutk La Salle Street CV\rn*r. I lllnoi. HARTOLDMONOOQ7884 \ Keller - direct 21 BY MR. HYNES: Q In other words, would it be correct in saying you were to assign these various tasks to these dif ferent groups, follow up to make sure they were com pleted in a timely fashion and within budget? A Assignment of some of the tasks. Many of the tasks came directly to the group leaders of these groups, were reported out by these group leaders and I would see the work after it had been reported out. I would receive a copy of the work con curren t with the client. Q Talking about the client, who do you mean by the client? A The client would be our business groups of the Organic Chemicals Division. Q All within the Mons an to Comp any? A Correct. Q How long were you section manager of these sections? A Approximately one year. Q This also was in St. Louis ? A Yes. Q What was your next position at Monsanto? A Manager, Applied Sciences . TU L U rbein Certified crtSncf ["Reporter ________ 154 Soulk L- StfUe reet | H i nc< 9 60605 HARTOLDMONOOQ7885 Keller - direct 22 Q That was also in St. Louis, is that correct? A Yes. Q What we re your duties as Manager of Applied Scien ces? A Administrative responsibility for five prin cipal groups which were an organic analytica1 group, inorganic analytical and radiochemistry group, physical chemistry group, instrumental development group and applied math and computer sciences group. Q I have six groups. You said five, did I mess something up here? I have the organic analytical group, inorganic analytical group, radiochemistry group, physical chemis try group, instrumental developmen t group and applied math and computer s ciences group. A The inorganic chemical and radiochemistry is one group. Q Thank you. In terms of your administrative res ponsibilities for these five groups, would those be similar types of duties as you had as a section manager: Direction of resources and facilities, things of that nature? A Yes, yes. L. UvU C^eT,t;ficd [~^e porter _______ ^oLtk |_a ^i!fe Street a icor'o, Illinois 6060Z> HARTOLDMONOOQ7886 Keller - direct 23 Q 0f these five groups that you mentioned you . had administrative responsibility over, was the physical chemistry group the one that you were section manager of previously? A No, it was the analytical related groups. Q The organic analytical and the inorganic? A Yes. Q Would you briefly explain what the function of the physical chemistry group was at the time that group was reporting to you? A Their efforts were directed toward determining physical properties of a variety of chemicals including chemical products, with emphasis on s tabilities of these products for design of processes, safe design. Q What does stability mean in a chemical? A Therma1 stability, how stable materials would be under various temperatures. MR. FEATHERSTONE: I take it, Mr. Hynes, when you ask that ques tion, you mean in the context of that group? MR. HYNES: Of the physical chemistry group, yes. MR. FEATHERSTONE: Process development, okay. BY THE WITNESS: A Y es "0 L. U rbem C^erttfioJ [Reporter _____ IM Sout^ L* SUeSiFeet | I! inoit 60603 HARTOLDMONOOQ7887 Keller - direct 24 BY MR. HYNES: . Q Anything else concerning the physical chemistry group that you can recall? A No. Q What are the functions and responsibi1ities of the instrumental development group? A This group directed their efforts toward development of custom instruments for on-line process monitoring and special devices for research and develop ment applications. Q Would this wo rk have been similar to the work you were doing as a senior group leader in the applied chemistry and method development? A No. Q How was the instrument development group here different than the instrumental techniques work that you were involved in in the Organic Chemicals Division? A The instrument development group deals in producing a piece of equipment, hardware for certain measurements of which one might be analytical-type measurements or physical chemistry measurements . The difference in this group is through an end product which is usually an ins trument. The othe r group that you are comparing this to had an end product of technical TU |_. Carbon Certified ortRnd Reporter IM Soutf, [__ca Rtille Rtreet r'L ___ I ArAni, HARTOLDMONOOQ7888 Keller direct 25 information. . MR. FEATHERS TONE: A technique for using a product that was supplied by somebody else. MR. HYNES: I don't understand what you said. MR. FEATHERS TONE: My understanding of his testi mony is that earlier on in his area, he was involved in development of technical techniques used on the market and purchased by Monsanto. THE WITNESS: Yes. MR. FEATHERSTONE: And the difference between that function and the function he had under him as manager of applied sciences is that he was developing techniques to develop equipment supplied by someone else. THE WITNESS: Commercial. MR. FEATHERSTONE: Where the group under him was developing c us tom instruments. MR. HYNES: For us e at Mons anto? THE WITNESS: In-house use. BY MR. HYNES: Q And the other group which reported to the applied math and computer sciences group, will you explain their function, what their duties were? A This group used statistics, experimental -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Tie* 1__. (^erbrieJ 5^ Grt^;i n<J [Reporter ___ !34 1_o ^<iUe Street Illinois' 60603 HARTOLDMONOOQ7889 Keller - direct 26 design math mo deling techniques to help researchers in carrying out work directed towards new products and processes. It also involved use of computer systems needed for a variety of activities between the research and development department. ~ Q Would I be correct in assuming that the computer sciences work done by this group was aimed basically toward research rather than an accounting program and things of that nature? A Essentially that was the application. Q Do you recall any other duties or responsi bilities that you had as manager of applied sciences other than what we just discussed? A No. Q How long were you in that position? A To the presentdate. Q Am I correct in assuming then that from the time you started working with Monsanto, from 19 5 4 to the present, you have been working in' the St. Louis office the whole time? A Correct. Q Has the corporate structure of Monsanto changed from the time you were section manager in 19 70 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------__ "T^ea |_. Certified ortkemd [Reporter _______ IM U* S.*lle Street V_Scr><PO, jllmot? 60603 HARTOLDMON0007890 Keller - direct 27 to the present time that would involve your position as either section manager or manager of applied sciences? A Yes. Your question is did the corporate structure change? Q Yes . A Yes, it did. Q I want to find outwhen it did change so I know when you were section manager or manager of applied sciences. A In the early '70s, the Organic Chemicals Divis ion and Inorganic Divis ion of Corporate Monsanto were combined into Monsanto Industrial Chemicals Company. As part of that combination of the applied sciences area which I had out of the Organic Chemicals Division was retained and served the new company. Q And that became the - A Applied S cien ces. Q The Organic Chemicals Division and the Inorganic Chemicals Division were no longer a part of the Monsanto corporate structure? MR. FEATHERSTONE: Became independent companies. BY MR. HYNES: Q Became independent companies and what was the name of -- . ""T^eo I_ Urban (Certified cntk(?ncl [^eportei 134 j_a ^<ai!e Street HARTOLDMONOOQ7891 Keller direct 28 A Monsanto Industrial Chemicals Company, an operating unit of Monsanto Company. Q And you still retained your position as manager of applied sciences but it was then part of Monsanto Industrial Chemicals Company at that point? A Correct. Q Did your duties change in any way after the formation of the Monsanto Industrial Chemicals Company? MR. FEATHERS TONE: I may be wrong in this , but I thought you took the job of manager of applied science s at the time of this reorganization. THE WITNESS: No, I was manager of applied sciences as part of the Organic Chemicals Division shortly before the reorganization of Corporate Monsanto. MR. FEATHERS TONE: Then Mr. Hynes' question is as a resuIt of tha t reorganization that you described, did your duties change from how you described them earlier as manager of applied sciences. BY THE WITNESS : A No, with this addition, qualification: They were extended duties covering more clients. BY MR. HYNES: Q Again, these clients are within the Monsanto corporate structure? |_. FJpLan L C'.e-'tified 'Shoriha nd Reporter ----------- 134 Routn R^l(e Rtreet L ___ I 11 * _ _ _ AOAOY HARTOLDMONOOQ7892 Keller direct 29 A Opera ting divisons within the new company. . Q Would I be correct in assuming that any product or chemical which would come under the Organic Chemicals Division of Monsanto or under the Monsanto Industria 1 Chemicals Company, being manager of applied sciences, would all of these products or chemicals or experimental products go into your applied sciences department for some sort of work -- let me strike that. MR. FEATHERSTONE: I think they worked on a project basis. BY MR. HYNES : Q You worked on a project basis, I understand, but would one of the clients or operating divisions or product groups with in Monsanto, if they had or were working with something that would be considered an organic chemical, if they had need of the use of services of your applied s ciences department, would it always go to you or would there be some other branch of Mo ns an to that they would send their work to? A It would not always come to us. It could go to a variety of support facilities. Q What were these or what are these other support facilities ? A A typica 1 example -- ~"[~bea |_. Urban CZbe11fio^norik^nj [Reporter - IM ^outk (_o Street Illinois 60603 HARTOLDMON0007893 Keller direct 30 MR. FEATHERS TONE: What are they? . BY MR. HYNES: Q Let us get back in '71, '72, '73, just prior to the formation of Monsanto Industrial Chemicals Company. What were these other support facilities that an organic chemical or product which would be under a broad category of organic chemicals , where would these other facilities be? A There was one other principal facility of this type called Physical Sciences Center located in St. Louis. 0 What was the best you recall, again we are talking just before the Monsanto Industrial Chemicals Company was formed, wha t was the function of this Physical Sciences Center? What was their work, essentially? A They provided additional support services directed toward routine analytical service and special soph is tica ted ins trumen tal services for operating units of the company who required support of this type . Q What were these routine analytical services which this service performed, just in general? MR. FEATHERSTONE: And taking into account the eo (Rectified Rk ortk^nd Reporter 134 Routk j_a ^ollele Street Mi Z. r\ Z. r\ HARTOLDMONOOQ7894 Keller - direct 31 fact that he did not work there. BY MR. HYNES: . Q No, al1 these things are as much as you know. If you don't know, say you don't know. A They provided recognized standard method analyses, we 11-published analyses, chemical and instru mental in the category of routine analyses, those con sidered not too difficult and straightforward. Q The routine here, would this routine then be routine types of tests, not necessarily a routine test on every product, the routine is the type of technique used? A Yes. Q Rather than the routine and this is the pattern all products go through, it has to go through this Center for this particular test, is that correct? A Yes, yes. I would 1ike to add tothat. Q Yes. A This f acility , italso was prepared to do method development work for operating units which needed i t. Q Did they ever? You say they were prepared to do it. Did they ever do it? MR. FEATHERSTONE: I think that question is going "Thee 1_ Urban i i Certify Sh crdimd Reporter I2A ^outn |_a ^Rlle Rtreet a icjrio, INinci? 60603 HARTOLDMONOOQ7895 \ Keller - direct 32 to go beyond his knowledge, did they ever do it. . MR. HYNES: I just want to find out. BY MR. IIYNES : Q You said they were prepared to do it. That means they had the - MR. FEATHERSTONE: Capability. MR. HYNES: The capability to do it. BY MR. HYNES: Q I just want to know if to your knowledge they ever got involved in that. ^ A I'm aware that yes, they have. Q And are you aware of the types of work that they did in that area? A Yes . Q Would you briefly explain what types of work they did in that area? A They were a corporate support service facility with a wi de spectrum of techniques and on instrument situations where Corporate Monsanto would have only one instrument and they were considered the center of expertise for operating units which may, for whatever reason, not have their own support facility. Our company, Monsanto Indus trial Chemicals Company, had their own support facility; T!oee> |__. [_Jrbcin ------------- --------------- ----- --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Re-til ied R^ortRod Reporter ___________ IZA RolR (_o Rcille Rtreet Y'L _ . - - I 11:_ _ AOA nx HARTOLDMONOOQ7896 Keller - direct 33 namely, Applied Sciences. For this reason, much of the work on special determinations, analytical work was carried on within our company rather than send it to the corporate support facility. Q You also mentioned a s to the Phy sical S ciences Center that they did some s pecial sophisticated s upport services for new divis ions of the company, is that what you are talking about? A Yes. Q Were there any other organizations in your divisions within the company which did analytical work similar to the Applied S ciences, other than the Physica1 Sciences Center? A Yes. Q What other facilities were there or the name s of facilities, if you know? A There were plant laboratories which had their own analytica1 laboratories. Q In general what type of applied sciences work would these plant laboratories do, as best you recall? A Theyapplied analytical methods for monitor ing the manufacture, production of products. Q Am I correct in assuming that a plant manager's main function is just -- I don't know if quality control Tlieo 1_. Urbein (^eT'tified 5ho''tfiond [Reporter _____ 134 Souik |_a ^>o \ le treet III* AnAnz HARTOLDMONOOQ7897 t Keller - direct 34 would be the right word, but monitor the processes in the plant, the chemicals that are coming out are within the standards of whatever the process or product is that is being manufactured. Would that be the basic function? "" A The plant manager or the plant analytical group? Q Did I say plant manager? Would I be correct in as suming that these plant laboratories' main function would be almos t of a quality control type of function, making sure the products, the chemicals tha t came through the production line met the various specifications that were set for them? A Yes Q Do you know of any other basic functions that they per form, these plant laboratori es ? A NO. Q Any other facilities within the Monsanto Company tha t you can recall were involved in applied sciences-type area? A Yes Q What were these others ? A Monsanto Research Corporation. 1_. Ricrthond Reporter I3,(4 Routl j_a Rdle Rtreet ' HARTOLDAMr\ AOr\N7 OOQ7898 Keller - direct 35 Q Was the Monsanto Research Corporation in existence prior to the formation of Monsanto Industrial CheraicaIs Company? A Yes. Q Is it still in exis tence today, the best of your know ledge? A In a dif ferent organizational version. Q The best of your knowledge, was that dif ferent corporate vers ion, did that trans formation occur when Monsanto Industrial Chemicals Company was formed? A I don't recall the time when that occurred. Q Prior to that change in the structure, what was the f unction, what type of work did the Mons an to Re search Corporation do? MR. FEATHERSTONE: Change, are we talking about from Organic? MR. HYNES: No, the change in Monsanto Research Corporation. He said their function changed to some extent and prior to that change what were the functions. BY THE WITNESS: A They directed their efforts toward Government contracts. BY MR. HYNES: Q Do you have any general knowledge of the type Rhea 1_- Urban Certified ortRnd Reporter I2>4 Routk |_a RnHe Rtreet - HARTOLDMONOOQ7899 Keller - direct 36 of Government contracts they did and into what area? A No. Q Do you know if they had any other major ' functions other than working onGovernmentcontracts? A No. Q You say the corporate strueture of Monsanto Research Corpora tion changed to some extent. Do you recall when that change occurred and I am not trying to pin you down to a specific date, just the best of your recollection. A In the later '70s. Q And do you know at this point, the change in their function, what the change in that function was in that corporation? MR. FEATHERSTONE: How is that relevant to this lawsuit? MR. HYNES: I don't know. I want to find out what th e corpo rate structure was. MR. FEATHERSTONE: How much longer are we going to do tha t? MR. HYNES: There is only the research group after the Monsanto Research Corporation. MR. FEATHERSTONE: You can answer the question, but you are way beyond the time period of your lawsuit. ----------------------------------------------------------- --------- _-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Tk ec1 L UrLn (^erb^teJ Reporter _________ 13 ^ j_a *^0 He Street i Cl?-t o jllincb 6C603 HARTOLDMON0007900 Keller - direct 37 MR. HYNES: I know. That is why I want to ask the question. That is why I as ked the ques tion of any changes that he can recall. MR. FEATHERS TONE: He doesn't work for the company. MR. HYNES: I as ked if he re cal1s. ' MR. FEATIIERSTONE : He may never have known, but go ahead, Doctor. BY THE WITNESS: '' A The only thing I recall was that they re directed their e f forts to the environmental thrus t that the Corporate Monsanto started in the late 1970s. BY MR. HYNES : Q I am not sure what you me an by environmental thrust. Let me put it this way: What do you mean by environmental thrust? MR. FEATHERSTONE: Monsanto Research Corporation, whatever form it had, did more environmental work in the late 1970s. , BY THE WITNESS: A That's right. BY MR. HYNES : Q What type of environmental work? MR. FEATHERSTONE: Very generally, Doctor. ""Pbea |_. Urban Certified CfcrtCnd Reporter 134 Rcutf !_a Ralle S>treet ---------- HART OLDMON0007901 Keller - direct 38 BY THE WITNESS: A They were looking for situations where they might be of help to Monsanto or possibly others for projects of interest dealing with the environment. BY MR. HYNES: - Q And that was sometime in the late 1 7 0s, they changed? A Yes, somewhere in that area. Q Any other branches out of Monsanto which did Applied S ciences work that we haven't discus sed that you can recall? A My only concluding comment on that is certain other operating units of Monsanto were of a support unit, such as ours, Applied Sciences. Q But their work, am I correct, certainly wouldn't be as extensive, their equipment, facilities, as yours would be? A Correct. Q Am I correct that you have been either in the old corporate structure or the new corporate structure, been within the general auspices of the corporate division of either Monsanto or Monsanto Industrial Chemicals Corporation? A Yes . Thea I__ LJrbtfn CeHi'^ed 5^ort^nel (Reporter 134 ^ouiU (__lt 5^ He o i c a on o, ) 11 inois 6C603 HARTOLDMON0007902 Keller - direct 39 Q Could you just briefly explain how the products, the chemicals are broken down within organic and inorganic chemicals, within the Monsanto corporate structure? MR. FEATIIERSTONE: I think he wants to know the chemical distinction. BY MR. HYNES : Q I want to know the chemical distinetion, very basic. MR. FEATHERSTONE: Carbon. BY MR. IIYNES : Q Carbon as I unde rs ta nd it, but that is the dis tinetion within Mons an to ? A That is the basic distinction. . Q Any o ther distinctions that you know of? A No, that is the basic distinction. Q Any chemical or chemical product involving carbon would be in the 0rganic Chemicals Division? MR. FEATHERSTONE: As far as you know. Doctor. BY THE WITNESS: A To the best of my knowledge. BY MR. HYNES: Q Am I also correct that up to the point where you were manager of applied sciences in 1971, most of ________ ___________________________________________________________ __________ ~[~^eo 1_. t_Jrbem (Rectified RhcrtRnd Reporter IjVl Routh |_a Ru lie Rtreet ------------ HARTOLDMON0007903 \ Keller - direct 40 your work was in the area of analytical chemistry and analytical techniques? A Correct. Q Other than expanding in to some othe r a reas as manager of applied sciences, is the analytical chemistry, the analytical techniques, are they still within your function as manager of applied sciences? A Correct. Q To the best of your knowledge, when was the first time you became involved with any analytical work with polychlorinated biphenyIs, PCBs, while at Mo ns an to? A Early 1967. Q I am correctprior to that youreally didn't have any involvement with anything dealing with PCBs, is that correct, within Monsanto? A Applied sciences is a supportunitserving the functional products unit, bus in es s unit, which had PCB products. As a practice, whenever any work was needed, work would come into one of our groups and would be in turn reported back directly by this group. To the best of my knowledge we had very little work of this type prior to 1967. ---------------------- --.......------------- ------------ ----------------------------------------------------------- |TU ___ . (^erti^ed [Reporter _______ I `>4 (_a 5^1 le reel c . ! J i f no< c 60603 HARTOLDMON0007904 Keller direct 41 Q Do you recall specifically if you did any type of analytical work on PCBs prior to early 1967? A No. Q What was your first recollection, you said early 1967 you became involved with something to do with PCBs. Could you explain what your initial involvement was? A This is related to the reported work of Widmark and Jensen regarding the findings of PCB types of material in Sweden and reported by their publication in the New Scientists, I believe, in late 19 66 . Q How did you first learn of this article by Widmark and Jensen ? A Through out clients, that is, Applied Sciences' client, Medica1 Department and business unit. Q Do you recall who informed you about it or who brought this article to your attention? A This would have been a member of the Medical Department and manager of research and development for the business unit. 0 Who was manager of the research and develop ment for the business unit? A Bill Richard. "T~hee> (_. UrLem Serried ShorlRnd Reporter 154 RooR |_a S^lle Street r~\ HARTOLDMON0007905 Keller direct 42 Q What was that business unit? A Functional Fluids. Q Who is the Medical Department -- A Elmer Wheeler. Q How did they bring this to your attention? Did they call you into a meeting, basically how did this occur? A It was oral communication. Q As bes t as you recall, wha t was said and by whom? A It related to excerpt letters of Widmark and Jensen's publication with respect to looking at this from the view of how did we feel about it in terms of wh at they were finding and the amounts found. Q What did you feel about it in terms of the amount found or what was found? Can you explain what was me ant by how you feel about it? A This was a first time to our knowledge that PCBs had been reported. This was a surprise to me as it was to many others, I'm sure. MR. FEATHERSTONE: I don't know whether he asked for an assessment from an analytical s tandpoint. BY THE WITNESS: A Correct. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ .-- ~r^ee> 1_. l_JrL>e>n Re^tRed Rf-fRand Reporter Reuth |_e Re lie Rtreet _______ HARTOLDMON0007906 Keller - direct 43 BY MR. HYNES : Q How did you feel about it in terms of accuracy of the report, the techniques used or how did you feel generally about PCBs being found in Sweden, that is . what I ' rn trying to find out. A We had, the business uni t had responsibility for finding of PCBs and what impact they would have. They asked us from an analytical position how did we assess that publication, that report, on an analytical basis. Q What was your response to that? How did you assess it from an analytical point of view? A Vie felt the publication appeared technically sound, but we had reservations about what was reported. Q You said the publication appeared to be technically sound. What do you mean by technically sound? A Well, we were impressed with a new technique they were reporting and using; namely, gas chromatography combined with mass spectrometry. Since this was the first time that an applica tion of this new technique had been used, we were in a position of having to learn a good deal about this technique and since we didn't have a good techn.i ca 1 ied ^hortho nd pdeporte I3>4 ^outh 1_o le S>treet a ttcCodnr.ioo,, j 11 moi? 60603 HARTOLDMON0007907 Keller - direct 44 base to make that judgment, we felt we needed mo re . information. Q You also said that you had reservations on what was reported? A Yes . Q What were your reservations? A One key reservation was whether there might be contamination of Aroclor-type products, for example, in the laboratories and local laboratories of Widmark and Jensen which could provide false findings when looking at environmen tal materia Is. We also had some concern that this was not, this work, this publication did not appear in a leading scientific journal and we also felt concerned that this was one single report of a single group of researchers. And we were uncomfortable with that. We felt we had to develop further in formation a cross those lines I have just covered. Q Your concern was that it was a report of one group because scientifically you need to verify through other groups, conclusions, findings on more than one scientific group to be mo re comfortable with it? A That's right. Q You also said you were concerned that the Tiier? (_. Jrkan Certified ano, [Reporter IM S out!' |_a lie Street f~L:___ 1AnAD^ HARTOLDMON0007908 \ Keller - direct 45 publication did no t appear in a leading scientific journa1. What is the significance of that, in your mind? A Well, we didn't know why they wouldn't be reporting that in a journal that would have more ex- tens ive coverage. 11 s eemed like an important finding, if correct, and it is just a reservation that we had. 0 Did you at this point that we were just dis cussing , did anyone assign to you a particular task or assign you to get involved in this problem at that time? A Yes. Q Who as signed you and what was the task you were assigned or reques ted to do? A The task at that time was to do what was necessary to assess this problem further from an analytica1 view. Q It sounds like a very general direction, was that what it was, in fact? A Yes. Q How did you go about assessing this from an analytic a1 view? A Out of our clients, Medical Department and the business group, it was decided that there should be a visit made to Sweden for the purpose of more directly TU L. U Certlf ie J ) porter Street r'kr.^r, I Ihnnlc HARTOLDMON0007909 Keller - direct 46 determining the points that I mentioned and of my per-. sonally talking with these people about their work. Q About when was this determination made for a visit to be made to these authors? A This would have been developing in late 19 6 8 , early 1969. Q You stated earlier that you first learned about this finding sometime early in 19 6 7 and the determination was made in late '68, early '6 9 to visit them to learn about these, get more information about the techniques? A Correct, yes. Q Were you involved in any analytica1 work relating to the findings in this article and that year and a half period prior to the decision being made to visit the authors? A Yes. Q What was yourinvolvement? A The key involvement from our end was to get ourse1ves es tablished in gas chromatography/mass spectrome try te chniques and to accomplish that we had to acquire a system of this type. MR. FEATHERSTONE: This type? BY THE WITNESS: I_ LJrLwn ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Certified ortRnd Reporter ------------------ 134 Routh |_a Rblle Rtreet HARTOLDMON0007910 Keller direct 47 A (Continuing.) Being a gas chromatograph . combined with a mass spectrometer. We for this purpose proceeded with plans to purchase in early 1967 a mass spectrometer/gas chromatograph system. None we re commercially available in this country at that time. We bought our sys tern which was made in Germany in 1967 and this arrived at the end of the year and was phy sica1ly moved into our Applied Sciences laboratories at that time. MR. FEATHERSTONE: End of the year, 1967? THE WITNESS: End of year 1967. I BY MR. HYNES : i Q Prior to receiving the equipment at the end of the year 19 6 7, were you or anyone in your group involved in any type of analytical work involving the direct findings of Widmark and Jensen? MR. FEATHERS TONE: You mean without the equipment? MR. HYNES: No, o ther type of analy tical work. MR. FEATHERSTONE: Just so we are clear, when you s ay analy tical work, you are not s aying analyzing samples; work in the analytical group? MR. HYNES: Right, work in the analytical group. BY THE WITNESS: Thee5 (__. I^Jrkpn [Reporter----------- ^c.utn [_a lie Street a \COOO, lllinolc 60603 HARTOLDMONOOQ7911 Keller - direct 48 A Our main thrust was to get the equipmen t which was the too 1 needed to do work of this type. BY MR. HYNES : Q So basically your answer is - A No. Q -- is no? A No . Q Is the reason being you didn't have the equip ment to do any analytical work? A Correct. MR. FEATHERS TONE: On PCBs? MR. HYNES: That is what we are talking about. MR. FEATIIERSTONE : Sometimes we talk , spend an hour and ten minutes on things and I want to be sure it is related to PCBs and I am just checking to make sure. BY MR. HYNES: Q Prior to Monsanto acquiring this equipment, a gas chromatograph coupled with a mass spectrometer, what techniques did Monsanto have available to it, and I am not talking about the findings in the Widmark and Jensen study. A Yes. Q But in wo rk within your group, within Applied eo L U CeHiU orttand [Reporter _______ 134 Soutk |_a S.He Street |ilmcic 6C603 HARTOLDMONOOQ7912 Keller - direct 49 Sciences, what analytica1 techniques were available to you to analy ze any of your products containing PCBs ? A Gas chromatography. Q How long was that equipment, that technique available to Monsanto prior to 1967? A Early 1960s. Q What types of analysis would a gas chromato graph a 1low you to do with regard to PCBs or products containing PCBs? MR. FEATHERS TONE: I think you have two dif ferent ques tions. Are you on PCBs or PCB produc ts ? I am not sure that you are referring in analyses to samples of products you know the formu lation of. MR. HYNES: Let me do it two ways. BY MR. HYNES: Q The analytical work that your group would do utilizing the gas chromatographs, what was the capacity for analyzing this technology in dealing with products containing PCBs? A This technique, gas chromatography, had capabi1ity for making some separations of a component in PCB mixtures. It did not have a capability for identifying the chemical structure of these components. 1_. Urban Ce-tiC.eJ ortRnd Reporter _____ IZ4 Rcuin \_a Street Rk.c.s.TO, jllinck 60603 HARTOLDMONOOQ7913 Keller - direct 50 Q You said there was some capability of analy zing s eparation of components of PCB mixtures. What would a PCB mixture be? Would it be the chemical polychlorinated bipheny1 mixed with other chemicals to come up with an end product, is that the type of mixture you are talking about? A No, I am talking about a mixture of the isome rs in PCB mixtures. Q In other words -A Chlorinated bipheny1mate rials. Q The amount of chlorination where the chlorination would be on the -- MR . FEAT1IE RS TONE : Finish your thought, on the biphenyl ring ? BY MR. HYNES; Q On the biphenyl ring, yes. A Yes. Q Could you identify the chemical PCB using a gas chromatograph? A No. Q You said it did not have the capacity for identifying the chemical s tructures of a component, the gas chromatograph technology? A Yes, I think I said capability, possibly. T"bec 1_ Urban ortkcanj [Reporter _____ 134 |_a Street CUr.'i^r, I !!ln,;c f'SDf'SD^ HARTOLDMONOOQ7914 Keller direct 51 Q Did not have the capability of identifying the chemical structure of a component? A Correct. Q That would be a component -of the product that you would be analyzing? MR. FEATHERSTONE: He used the phrase these components which related to the component in PCB mixtures, which I take it are the isomers. THE WITNESS: Isomers. MR. HYNES : I'm sorry, the isomers, all right. THE WITNESS: Yes . j BY MR. HYNES: Q Am I correct in the capacity of the gas chromatograph in terms of your division, your groups' analyzing of products which contain PCBs, you would | not be able to identify chemically using that technique t I that PCBs were in that product? I A Correct. Q Am I correct in assuming that in doing such analyses, you would know there were PCBs in there because of the fact it is a product which contains PCBs and you would analyze that knowing PCBs are there, but not being able to detect them with a gas chromato graph, is that correct? ~|~bec I_. l_Jrbe*n Cerlif toJ SUriL .j>nd Reporter ------------------ 1*4 RolR 1_a R<aHe 'Rtreet III inmc 6060.^ HARTOLDMONOOQ7915 Keller - direct 52 MR. FEAT1IE RS TONE : Are you as confused as I am, . or can you answer that? THE WITNESS: I can answer. MR. FEATHERS TONE: Okay. BY THE WITNESS: A The technique could be used if you had a known mixture in the laborato ry and nothing had happened to change the isomeric ratios. It could not be used if that mixture was taken out somewhere and used where changes could occur in the isomeric ratio and brought back into the 1aboratory and one would attempt to analyze and measure. At that point, you could not identify PCBs . MR. FEATHERS TONE: Are you saying if you had a pure PCB product and knew it was PCB and put it in a gas chromatograph, you could tell it had PCBs in it? THE WITNESS: Where you had physically personally contained that and know it did not change, you could then say these are PCB chromatograph factions and that is the only way that could be done, even though that is not identification of PCBs. BY MR. HYNES: Q Are you saying of known components in the TU L. Ut4an Srtd(Certified 5^ OT>t [Reporter 154 Soutf [_a le Street n\ HARTOLDMONOOQ7916 Keller direct 53 product, you have now identified all the components you can, this component he re must be PCBs, is that kind of a simplified way of putting it, because you know PCBs are there, you would assume it would be in this range of the chromatograph tape printout? A Printout. ' Q So that is how you would identify them? A Yes . Q Doing it from alayman'spoint of view and I am trying to make sure in my own mind of what you are saying -- v A Yes, but I want to emphasize to you, you cannot identify PCBs just by gas chromatography. Q Is there any way to identify them through infrared spectroscopy? A Could youexplain by"them"? Q PCBs, I am sorry. Could you identify PCBs that would be in a product using infrared spectroscopy? MS. OLIVER: What time period are we talking about? MR. HYNES: The time period in the 1960s, let us say BY THE WITNESS A I will have to answer that this way: ~rhec> 1_. Urbein de^iifieJ Rkc^tRnd Reporte l.j^ j_a Rdle Rtreet auCcOrn^oG,, jilinc-t? 60603 HARTOLDMONOOQ7917 Keller - direct 54 Infrared would show certain structural feature s common to the isomers. 11 would not tell you which isomeric components or classes would be possible. BY MR. HYNES: __ Q Am I correct that if someone is utilizing an infrared spectroscopy technique, you will get a printout or a tape of the peaks from, for want of a better word, in this findings and then to identify whatever that chemical is or that component is, you have to go to a catalog and compare it to similar peaks to say this is Chemical A, this is Chemical B, is that correct? A That is correct, but infrared doesn't have the capability of handling mixtures of related com ponents and giving you that much information about what is in that mixture. It can handle single chemical entities and tell you, give you an idea of what is present, but the only absolute method of doing this is by mass spectrometry and this is because you get more informa tion out as to the chemical s tructure needed to answer tha t ques tion. Q Did Monsanto maintain a catalog of infrared fingerprints , so to speak, of the various chemicals |___ . CerllU crik^rj [Reporter ____________ IMS outk |_o S.He Street rk \coao. Miinc is 60603 HARTOLDMONOOQ7918 Keller - direct 55 it produced? A We would have infrared reference spectra for certain peaks of interest. We normally would draw upo n cornme rc i a 1 ly avai lable spectra of this type . Q To the best of your knowledge, between, say, 1960 and 1972, was there a commercially available reference for polychlorinated biphenyls available for infrared spectroscopy? A Not to my knowledge. Q Was one available at Monsanto, did you have one in your own re ference library, to the best of your knowledge? A Not that I remember. Q Were there any other techniques available to your Applied S ciences group for analyzing products containing PCBs other than the gas chromatograph? MR. FEATHERSTONE: Analyzing for what, PCBs? BY MR. HYNES : Q Analy zing their presence in products, in your products ? A At what period of time? Q Prior to your receiving the gas chromatograph or mass spectrometer in 1 ate 19 6 7? A The o ther principal technique re la ted to T^e> I__ t_Jrkan " ^------------------------------------------ ^ l^ortnd Reporter 154 ^outh [_a ^jlle Street IN inci? 60603 HARTOLDMON0007919 Keller - direct 56 infrared and it is called ultraviolet absorption. Q Is that a-b or a-d? A A-b . MR. FEATHERS TONE: Could I have Mr. Hynes' second to the last question read? . (Record read as requested.) MR. FEATHERSTONE: I take it your question was qualified to the extent the witness qualified his answer to the extent he couldn't identify PCB as PCB, just with a gas chromatograph. MR. HYNES: Right. BY MR. HYNES: Q Were there any o ther techniques available a t that point of time other than a gas chromatograph? You said ultraviolet absorption, is that correct? A Correct. Q Could you explain howthat technique works ? A It is based on varying wave lengths of ultra violet light being passed through a solution of the sample and due to chemica1 characteristics of the material in solution, certain wave lengths of this light will be absorbed and it gives you a charac ter is tic spectrum, drawn curve. Q Would you explain how accurate this technique HARTOLDMON0007920 Keller - direct 57 would be in terms of identifying PCBs in a product? A Very inaccurate. It would have little capability of showing any differences between the many isomers in the PCB mixtures. It most likely would give you a single broad peak with all the isomers up to 209 or the total number appearing somewhere in this one peak and it wouId be of no value for PCB isomers in mixtures. Q I am not sure I understand that. You say there would be a large peak and within that peak could be upwards of 2 00 isomers in that entire peak that would be able to be identified as PCBs, but you wouldn't know which isomers, how chlorinated it was, am I correct in that? A You could not identify PCBs from that curve. Q To the best of your knowledge, what else could that curve be to a chemist that is familiar with the technique? What other types of chemicals couId it be? A That curve would be representing primarily the aeromatic bipheny1 nucleus of all the isomers, the biphenyl ring part. Q Are you saying then that that large peak would be able to be identified as being or containing "Tiieo |_. (^JrL?n Certified CkortLnd Reporter _____ 134 Rouik La Sa'IeStreet C~ I 11 AnAr HARTOLDMONOOQ7921 Keller - direct 58 a biphenyl ring but that is about as far as you could go? A That's as far as you could go. MR. FEATHERS TONE: Again, the knowledge tha t when you put it through the ultraviolet abso rption technigue, you knew the product had PCBs in it, tha t is your ass umption? THE WITNESS : Yes . BY MR. HYNES : Q If you don't know there we re PCBs in the product or the chemical, would you still get the same peak on the graph or the readout? You would still be able to identify it as containing a bipheny1 ring, but that is as far as you could go, is that right? A Correction on bipheny1 ring. You are all right in your use of it. I wouId like to add to that. This curve, this technique is so non specific tha t a benzene ring or biphenyl ring in many different types of compounds, organic chemicals, will give you a peak almost superimposable and for this reason if you had pesticides of similar structures, PCBs, other organic types of ring structures in an unknown mixture, you would be totally unable to show ~Theci |_. Urban Certified orl^and [Reporter ________ 154 |_a Street ~ HARTOLDMONOOQ7922 Keller direct 59 what the components were or what the mixture was or anything about it, MR. FEATHERSTONE: Is that because the printout of the different chemicals would look the same? _ THE WITNESS: Yes. BY THE WITNESS: ' Q It is a very nonspecific technique and would only be useful if you had total control over a PCB mixture. You would put that in an instrument, you would get one curve and you knew nothing could happen to that and you wanted to check it some way to show that a certain amount passed through, whatever, and | that came out -- MR. HYNES: I am not sure you changed your | | answer. Would this peak be able to be identified by { someone as a chemical containing a bipheny1 ring, but that is as far as you could go? THE WITNESS: No. MR. FEATHERSTONE: I don't know whether he did change his answer, but you cou1d not identify it. BY MR. HYNES: Q So if you didn't know what they had, my ques tion using the ultraviolet absorption method, you would get a peak but you wouldn't even know if it was "]~bea |__. Urban Serti'ied S^ortSS Reporter -------------------114 Roulk L- SSe Street (~l\, 111;,,,,:- AnAn2, HARTOLDMONOOQ7923 Keller - direct 60 containing a benzene ring or biphenyl ring? A Co rre c t. Q Would a chemist, not knowing what was in this chemical being analyzed, getting this peak, is there any chemical gro up that he would be able to identify that peak as being? A No . MR. FEATHERS TONE: When you get to a convenient point. MR. HYNES: I want to ask one more question. MR. FEATHERS TONE: Sure. BY MR. HYNES: Q This is prior to when you received the machine in the late 1967 period, using the gas chromatograph technique, working with a chemical or chemical product, you didn't know the components, would you be able to use that to identify a bipheny1 ring product? MR. FEATHERS TONE: Could I have the question read back? (Question read.) MR. FEATHERSTONE: In other words, an unknown sample? MR. HYNES: Right. BY THE WITNESS: "0 eo |__. LUenn Ce^eJ Sl'crtk <?nj [Reporter 134 ^cuin l_a I !e Street linnet? 60603 HARTOLDMONOOQ7924 Keller - direct 61 A I be 1ieve you addressed your question just . to the gas chromatograph technique? BY MR. HYNES: Q Right, prior to receiving the mass spectro meter . A No . Q Would you be able to identify an unknown chemical or chemical product as containing a chlori nated hydro carbon using the gas chromatograph technique? A No. Q And using the ultraviolet absorption technique, would you be able to identify an unknown chemical as being a chlorinated hydrocarbon? A No . Q Am I correct that you are saying that unless you knew there was PCB in the product or the chemical you were analyzing, you would not be able to identify it using the gas chromatograph? A Righ t. Q And all of this we are talking about is prior to your receiving the new equipment in 1967? A Right. MR. HYNES: Do you want to take a couple of minutes? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- - TU L. U^n (ZeEti'icca Rkortkc-ind Reporter ------------ 134 Routli j_a Rfllte Rtreet (^_'k iCiO.-io i 11 j no c 606f HARTOLDMONOOQ7925 Keller - direct 62 MR. FEATHERSTONE: Sure. (Brief recess had .) BY MR. HYNES: Q You mentioned prior to late 1967, the gas chromatography technique, the ultraviolet ab sorption technique. Were there any other techniques available to you to measure and a naly ze PCBs ? A No . Q Maybe I am being a little dense, I certainly admit to that in the field of chemistry, but using the gas chromatograph , are you saying that unles s you know PCBs are present in the mixture that you are analyzing, you would not be able to identify the peak on the printout as PCBs , is that correct? A Correct. Q And if you were analyzing a mixture which you did not know the components and PCBs were in that mixture, you would not be able to identify PCBs as being in that mixture, is that correct? A By chromatography, that is correct, yes. Q And the PCBs would come out as some peak in the gas chromatograph printout, is that correct? A Yes , Q Would you be able to identify generally the |_. l^Jrban ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (^eT-tified p>h orthond Reporter -----------------134 Sou tli |_a S^lle Street HARTOLDMON0007926 Keller - direct 63 chemical group that that peak would be in, a chlorinated hydrocarbon or something like that using gas chromato graphy prior to 19 6 7? A No. Q What would you be able to identify that chemical as being in general chemical terms? A Not to overemphasize, but the chromatographic separation technique cannot identify it by analogy to a reference material which had been put through the same instrument, can be some evidence that a peak that is coming out at a certain so-calied retention time is the same as your reference material. But since it i doesn1t have capability of showing structure of what ever is in that peak, you cannot conclusively say that that's that component or mixture of components coming j out in that peak because it doesn't have capability to show structure. Q If you have a reference library -- A Of chromatographies ? Q 0f chromatographies, then this unknown peak, if you had a fingerprint, so to speak, a reference 1ibrary, would you be able to identify it as PCBs? A No. You would be able to show that it has, whatever the unknown is, has components that separate Tkeo (_. Urtxan Ceriij-ied fd^eporter ________ 134 |_a Street a icooo. 111 inoi9 60603 HARTOLDMONOOQ7927 Keller - direct 64 out at the same point in this curve coming out of a chromatographic column as to your material of interest, but many components can come out at that same point which differ in s trueture. For that reason, you cannot know for sure th at what you h ave got is the component you think you have and in an unknown situation -- Q Again, in the unknown situa tion, you have put a chemical into the gas chromatograph. The peaks come out and in your analysis, using a reference 1ibrary, you identify each of the peaks. You get to a particular peak and am I correct that you reach a peak where there is no definitive similar peak or identical peak and your reference library, would you be able to identify similar types of chemicals which would come out at this retention time ? MR. FEATHERS TONE: May I have the question back? MR. HYNES: Let me rephrase it. BY MR. HYNES: Q What I am getting at is you are saying a certain chemical will come out at a particular retention time . A Yes. Q Using the gas chromatograph, am I correct in understanding you that there may be several different Thea 1_ Urban -- Certified Rlrorthand Reporter ________ 134 Routk j_a Ra!!e Rtreet ~ HARTOLDMONOOQ7928 Keller - direct 65 chemicaIs that will come out at the same retention time? A Correct. Q Then my next question is how do you identify the particular, or are you able to identify the particular chemicals that come out a t this s ame retention time ? A Not without a mass spectrometers Q Is there any corporate relation of the number of chemicals which come out at a particular retention time in terms of chemical groups, and just for an example, say chlorinated hydrocarbons or chemical groups con taining bipheny1 rings, could they all come out at a particular retention time so you are able to identify a particular chemical group that this unknown chemical is in? A To my knowledge, that would be extremely difficult, if not impossible. I will expand on that with just one additional sentence. Q All right, fine. A Where a component comes out from a chromatograph is dependent upon the chromatographic conditions the researcher used. Sometimes these conditions are designed to separate closely related chemica1 species. 0ther times they may be directed towards separating components eo |__ . IUan Certified 154 Qout^ 1_n O.c .">o : | i I me i5 60603 HARTOLDMONOOQ7929 Keller - direct 66 over a wider range. . With the mixtures we are talking about, PCBs, I think it would be impossible to identify on that basis. Q , Would someone be able to identify the dif ference be tween DDT and PCBs in using that technique at that time? . A You would still have a bui1t-in risk of other related materials being present that you are blind to in the chromatographic technique that you are calling, whatever. Q I am not sure I understand your answer . Are you saying DDT and PCBs are so closely related chemically - MR. FEATHERS TONE: Do you mean in their printout? BY MR. HYNES: Q (Continuing.) In the printout, right, that it would be difficult to separate the two in a chromato graphic printout? A Yes, that's true, and even if they were separated, it would be difficult to still come in with a separated peaks and know that was the only component in that peak. Q Are you saying you would be able to identify Theo |_. CerlifieJ orthand ['^epo'-'ter --..... -- !34 ^cutn |_a ^gille Street a \cooo, Illinois' 60603 HARTOLDMON0007930 Keller - direct 67 the DDT but you wouldn't know what the other chemical is that is mixed in with it? A No, you still cannot identify with any chromatographic technique, you cannot identify. The only way I know of to identify is to go to a mass s pec trometer. MR. FEATHERS TONE: I think what he is s aying is even if you could separate the two, you are not sure that you have gotten rid of three, four, five and six; they may be coming in in the same peak. BY THE WITNESS: A Right. You are always blind to what is in that peak, gas chromatographic peak. You never know from the chromatograph chemically speaking what may be in that peak if you are basing it only on the peaks that you are observing. BY MR. HYNES : Q But if you knew the component, you had contro1 over the components going into the gas chroma tograph , then you would be able to separate the various components by their peaks, is that correct? A That is correct. Q But you would have to have total control over the components, the chemicals going into it? TU L. U.u Ce ort^nd [Reporter I Sou! m [__t-? a f !e <^treet n\ IN- AnAnz HARTOLDMONOOQ7931 Keller direct 68 A Correct. Q P rior to getting the mass spectrometer, would you have the capability of measuring a hydraulic fluid manufactured by Monsanto, Pydraul? I assume you are familiar with the Pydraul products generally? A Yes . Q Would you be able to separate the chemica1 components of a Pydraul fluid and be able to identify the percentage of PCBs that were in that fluid or the molecular weight of the PCBs within that fluid? A Using a gas chromatograph? Q Using a gas chromatograph. A You would not be able to identify the PCB components in Pydraul fluids. Q Would you be able to identify that the PCBs were in there? A No, and I want to requalify: Identify means in materials, chemical strueture. Q By chemical s tructure, you mean the number of isomers, how chlorinated it is? A The weight of the chlorination, correct. Q But you would be able to identify that chemical generally as PCBs, but not be able to break it down as to which isomers it is ? TU L. U^n Certified ortSnd ("Reporter 134 Sutn |__ a S^He 'Street -------- HARTOLDMON0007932 \ Keller direct 69 A No o Q You stated that Monsanto received its gas chromatograph with a mass spectrometer late in the year 1967. About what time did your group begin using, and I don't mean just for PCBs, begin using this technology ? A I can best answer this with a brief indication of what was required for us to set up and to do this work. The first action was to physically get the equipment brought in. We purchased a mas s spectrometer from a company in Europe and a gas chromatograph and a so- called s epar ator to hook these two instruments tog ether. MR. FEATHERSTONE: Which two? THE WITNESS: The gas chromatograph and the mass spectrometer. BY THE WITNESS: A (Continuing.) You have to have something more than just a tube that you connect to this one, the mass spectrometer and connect it to the gas chromato graph . To make these two work together requires "T"bea 1__ . Urban (jcT-liTied Rlicrt.knnd Reporter __________ 134 L- Sd'He reet f'L;TM,TM III;TM;,- An/in1, HARTOLDMONOOQ7933 Keller - direct 70 a very sophisticated, what they call an interface unit, a separator, so you can run components off the gas chromatograph and go into the mass spectrometer sys tern and get these two systems compatible so that you could do that work. So our program after several months, when the factory engineer got us on stream with the equip ment installed, checked out, we then devoted our efforts to getting our own people trained and skilled in how to do this work. This was the first mass spectros copy work we had done and we approved this with people who are competent and fairly rapid learners and chose to bring them up to speed. So the next six months was required to do just that, for them to develop enough volume to be able to use this equipment with proficiency. Also in this period, we had to develop separation techniques required for work-up of many varieties of materials and samples and this had to be done before we could even put in a sample into this mass spectrometer. This took a number of months. And con current with this, we had to develop enough information on how to read what this mass spectrometer is presenting as information, not only to learn how to use it, but to ------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ TU L. Uin Certified ortkomd Reporter ------------- 34! Routk !__a Roite 'Rtreet ^ HARTOLDMON0007934 \ Keller direct 71 interpret results. Normally we are talking mass . spectrometists who do no thing but this type of work. This is the way we were coming up and getting on top of this and we put appreciable effort in this direction to get ourselves u p to speed for PCB work, projects of that ty pe. We also, of course, had clients with our projects who were entitied to some time on this sys tern, and we were taking care of these along the way. MR. FEATHERSTONE: During 1968? THE WITNESS: This is during 1968 ending and into 1969. BY MR. HYNES: Q About when did you feel you had the expertise and the capacity to begin doing analysis work using this equipment? A We were developing continuous expertise, but in early 196 9 , we were coming on quite well and being ! able to apply this to a certain number of projects and get results out of that we were comfortable with. Q The best you recall, when did you begin to do any analytical work using this equipment with PCBs? MR. FEATHERSTONE: You mean apart from developing ']_kea |_. Urban Cert i *-i'eJ ortSnei [Reporter 134 Soutk S^ie Street r~ L :___ I ! IAnAni HARTOLDMONOOQ7935 Keller - direct 72 the methodology he has testified to? MR. HYNES: Right. BY THE WITNESS: A Applications we re being s tarted in 196 9 of different types, Again, a great deal of effort in this period was directed to getting ourseIves competent in being able to handle a variety of matricies, many different types of materials. BY MR. HYNES: Q You said you began sometime in 1969 performing some of these proj ects dealing with PCBs. Do you specifically recall any that you were involved in using this technology? A As we moved through this period, we especially were directing efforts where needed with certain clients' support projects, internal plant projects, certain monitoring proj ects of that type. Q Is that in the area of PCBs ? A Yes. Q Generally what type of work was it with your client and client groups that involved PCBs? MR. FEATHERS TONE: He has already told you generally what types of products. MR. HYNES: I am talking specifically on PCBs , ........................................ - ......................................... -- TU- L. U-U CZjer'tifIGJ 5^1 orthjnd Reporter ________ 134 Routi' |_a R^lle Rtreet HARTOLDMONOOQ7936 Keller - direct 73 the general type of work he was doing with the mass spectrometer at the time with the general client g roups. BY THE WITNESS: A Well, a source, a good example would be sewer e f fluent work and, for example, with Outboard Marine for Johnson Motors BY MR. HYNES : Q Specific analysis of a product or a chemical sent to you for analysis, that is basically what it was? A Yes, ef fluent-type materials, s treams. Q These would be at the reques.t of the particular product group in the company, Functional Fluids or some of the others? A Yes. We operate as a client-related support unit and this work comes in through the business unit or the Medica1 Department on a job basis . Q You also said that you did some monitoring work. Generally what type of work was involved in monito ring tasks? A I had mentioned we were concerned, involved with our plants and manufacturing sites and a certain amount of work of this type was carried out. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------- -------------------- eo L. LWm Ce-liM ortkjnJ p^eporter 154 Soutlt [_ St reet C" P c o o o. Ifllnolc (*)0('S0T> HARTOLDMONOOQ7937 Keller - direct 74 A Was this monitoring the processes inside the plant or outside the plant, or was there any difference? A . Most of this work in this area came in directly to our group, one of our groups handling this and they handled these directly and reported directly. Much of the time I would not even be involved or see the results out of this, so I am really hard put to answer this for you. Q I was trying to say you know generally you had some work but you don't know specifica11y what it was ? A Correct, because the groups themselves handled this type of work, reported it out and I didn't monitor all these jobs. We had hundreds of jobs come through our unit and I had no way to monitor those. Q Any other category of work involving PCBs you recall doing other than the monitoring that came in from the groups and the client groups? A We were concerned methodwise in use of this technique , the gas chromatography/mass spectrometry technique on studies of other types other than environ mental materials, for example. I will give you an example -- Q I meant rela ting to PCBs. Thee1 I_ Url^on '" --------------------------------------------- -- (/or11fjej [Reporter ______ !A** ^jouin |_a grille Street Cjkc<^o, (llinci? 60603 HARTOLDMONOOQ7938 \ Keller - direct 75 A I meant PCBs . I will give you an example. . At a little later point, we were interested in biodegradation work and this involved development of necessary methodology, and for this we drew upon the GC/mass spectrometry technique which really made this work possible, so we had a number of projects of this type going. Q And those types of projects weren't specific tasks reques ted by dif ferent product line groups like Functiona1 Fluids or something? This would be separate from that? A Yes. ' MR. FEATHERS TONE: Wait a minute. BY MR. HYNES: Q In terms of assignment of these tasks, would it be different in the types of assignments you would get from a plasticizer group or Functional Fluids, is that correct? A The answer I gave was we were responding to the business unit and Medica1 Department in setting up biodegradation technique and skill. Q So it came from one of your client groups, but it was somewhat out of the ordinary type of requests from them? "~Pbea |_. Urban --------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- (^erlified orthond Reporter __________ 134 Roui.^ 1_a RRIe ^Rtreet ^ HARTOLDMON0007939 Keller - direct 76 A Yes. 0 All of this work or these types of tasks began sometime in 1969? A Yes, and on into 1970. Q While your department was acquiring the expertise to use this new equipment, was there any other involvement that you know of, your group, with PCBs at al1 other than a genera 1 task coming from a group? Would you consider a routine type of work in volving a PCB-bearing product, were you involved in any other analytical-type work dealing with PCBs? A Yes. Q What was that? A We at one point during this period of ' 6 0-70 were concerned with solubility testing of PCB materials. Q Did you use theGC/MS for solubility testing? A Yes. Q What I am asking, and it probablywasn't clear, I am now talking about any analytical work drawing on that new technology, any other type of work that your group did involving PCB which was not routine. MR. FEATHERSTONE: Would your question be including literature, talking to people , that type of thing ? BY MR. HYNES : HARTOLDMON0007940 Keller direct 77 Q Any involvement of your group involved in PCBs at that time. MR. FEATHERSTONE: I think you switched the question. You keep saying analytical work drawing on that new technology and through the instruments. What is it? MR. HYNES: All right. BY MR. HYNES: Q Were you involved in any work or any task relating to PCBs other than utilization of this tech no logy be tween when you received the machine and, say, 19 70? A In the early stages, I was involved in a trip to Europe with Elraer Wheeler to assess findings by Widmark and Jensen. Q Anything else you recall? A No. Q Am I correct then that your main involvement with PCBs in the time period when you received the gas chromatograph with the mass spectrometer was involved in the analytica1 techniques, familiarization with the equipment and improvements on the equipment, analyses of that type using that equipment and this trip to Europe with Mr. Wheeler. That is the broad ~Theo |_. l_Jrbetn Certified orti'id>nJ Reporter _____ 134 Routh |_a Rdiile Rtreet CRicyd>o, Illinois 60603 HARTOLDMONOOQ7941 Keller - direct 78 category of your involvement in this, is that correct? A Correct. Q When was your European trip, as best you recall? Approximately when did it take place? A Late Spring, 19 6 9 . Q In other words, you and Mr. Wheeler, is that correct? A Yes . Q I take it this is the trip that you had dis- cussed previously to get more information on the techniques which they used in their reported study? A Correct. Q First of al1, did you meet with Widmark and Jensen? A We met with Widmark, not Jensen. Q Any reason why you met with him and not Dr. Jensen? A Dr. Jensen was out of the facility and out of the city at the time of our visit and was not available. Q How long did you talk to Dr. Widmark: One day, two days; generally? A One day. Q The best of your recollection, what was dis- cussed? |_. C' prfifirvJ ^ Lr f li a n Paportar 134 Soutk Lo S^lle Street r^\ I 11 . . . AnAn; HARTOLDMONOOQ7942 Keller - direct 79 A We were especially interested in his GC/mass spectrometer system and we used that opportunity to 1earn everything we could about what they were doing with it, their techniques and et cetera. We were interested in comparing that with our own systern which was just coming on stream nicely a t that point. We were interes ted in satisfying V ourselves that we didn't have contamination in his laboratory or in transport of environmental materials through containers or whatever. We also were very interes ted in his findings of PCBs in certain environmental materials . Q In general, what else was discussed, those three categories pretty much? A Those are the principal categories. Q In comparing his techniques using the mass spectrometer and those which you were imp1ernenting at the plant, did you find any significant differences between the technique? A No. We felt that they were competent in the techniques they had used and were using. We thought the equipment was adequate. We felt on some thing it was not as good as the sys tern we had just installed. ~[~beci I__ Urban ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- RertiOed Rhorthjnd Reporter __________ 134 {_a Ralle Rtreet a \cac\o, Illinois 60603 HARTOLDMONOOQ7943 Keller direct 80 Q You had a later model or something? . A Well, we felt our mass spectrometer had more capability of separating and identifying different species. Q Were you able to determine if there was any contamination in the laboratory or transport of the materials which they analyzed? A We concluded out of that visit their tech niques v/e re analytically acceptable in terms of avoiding contamination and we felt this was not a likely explanation. Q In your discussions dealing with their find ings , I take it those findings were the findings they published in late '66, I believe, is that it? A Yes . Q What was your discuss ion in terms of the findings in their report? A Well, the key point that struck us out of this, looking at what they had determined as informa tion which bothered us, was the higher chlorinated species, five chlorines on a biphenyl ring or higher being the more dominant species found in environmental materials they were looking a t. And a t that point, there wasn't a good explanation for this. "I'ked 1_. Urban Certified ortkond f^^eporter* 134 `U'outk [_o So He Street ---------- ^ HARTOLDMON0007944 Keller - direct 81 Q Were you able to arrive at any conelusions in discussing with Dr. Widmark why the higher chlori nated species we re dominant, what his opinion was on that? A His opinion was that it was perhaps bio degradation or losses of that type of the lower chlorinated species below five chlorines. Q Any other explanations or theories that any one came up with there? A That is the principal one that I can recall. Q Why did you consider it significant that the higher chlorinated species appeared to be more dominant in his s tudy, what significance did that have to you? A We knew in Europe that European manufacturers were manufacturing PCB products which represented a series of isomers relative to containing lower chlorinated isomers below five and higher chlorinated isomers, many times in the same mixtures. And knowing this information, you would norma1ly expect to find all components if the total product got into the environ ment and this was not being found. It was only the higher chlorinated components that were dominant as residues and wildlife j_.~|~bea Urban Certified 3^ orthc*nd [Reporter 154 'uJouik j__a Street a i\czaoo, ij ! mots1 60603 HARTOLDMONOOQ7945 Keller - direct 82 and materials of this type. Q Am I correct that the product mix of the European manufacturers of PCB produc ts had higher and lower chlorinated species and they were only finding higher, so you were trying to find some explanation why the lower we re not being identified? A Correct. Q And that at that point, was it Dr. Widmark's explanation that it is perhaps a lower chlorinated species were biodegrading - A Biodegrading. Q Could you briefly describe whatbiodegrada tion is, what biodegrading is? A That is a conversion of a chemical through microorganism or bacteria to a degradation product, normally carbon dioxide and water. Q Am I correct it is just through the reaction of some bacteria or organism, it breaks the chemica1 down into its component parts? A Parts which eventually go allthe way to carbon dioxide and water. The bugs actually chew the chemicals, des troy them. (Discussion off the record.) BY MR. HYNES: ~]~kea 1__ . Url^n ortRnd Reporter 154 Routli |__a R^lle *Rtreet ------------ O \cono, Illinois 60603 HARTOLDMONOOQ7946 Keller - direct 83 Q Do you have a micros cope? . A I think that is a fair question for Dr. Kimbrow. Q Do you recall anything else being discussed at your meeting with Dr. Widmark and Dr. Wheeler? A We dis cussed methodology very generally and he was kind enough to provide us with their latest techniques which we brought back with us. Q In your discussions or prior to that, were you able to find out when his laboratory or the University acquired their gas chromatograph/mass spectrometer? A It is my best recollection they acquired it approximately one year prior to their published report in '66. I will say, to the best of my knowledge, it wou1d be in 19 6 5 . Q Did they say how they acquired it? I don't mean go out and buy it, but how they received informa tion that that technology, that equipment was now available for purchase? A They, of course, being in Sweden maintained close contac t with commercial ins trument companies and especially in Sweden, and the instrument they had was commercially produced at that time by a Swedish ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- _ eo |__ . CeHif.J ortkf^nd [Reporter _______ 134 S outh 1_a ^bl!e Street CL:. I ADA.OX HARTOLDMONOOQ7947 Keller - direct 84 company and that is the reason they went ahead and bought that instrument. Q Do you know if the best of your knowledge, was the info rma tion concerning the availability of this equipment made known to Monsanto at about the same time as it was made known to the University of Stockholm, I think it was ? MR. FEATHERSTONE: Wait a minute . How is he going to know when the University of S tockholm learned about this? MR. HYNES: Let me put it another way. BY MR. HYNES: Q To the best of your knowledge, they acquired the equipment sometime in 1965, is that correct? A Correct. Q In that time period, do you know if Monsanto had knowledge that that equipment was available for sale? MR. FEATHERSTONE: Tha t time period being 196 5? MR. HYNES: Right. BY THE WITNESS: A I can't speak for all Monsanto on that. BY MR. HYNES : Q Did you know? |_. t_Jrb<3n CHeT-tir ied RkoRnond Reporter ------------- !3A Rootk |_a Rc>l!e Rtreet C~L ___ 111AnAOA HARTOLDMONOOQ7948 Keller direct 85 A I personally do not know it. Perhaps those responsible for instrumentation - MR. FEATHERS TONE: You are not supposed to perhaps anything. Do you know, you didn't know it? BY THE WITNESS: A I personally do not. BY MR. IIYMES : Q The best of your recollection, when did you first learn this technology was available? A Through the Widraark-Jensen report. Q At that time you were research group leader, I be 1ieve, in '65 th rough 19 70 , roughly, is that correct? A If that is what the record states, it should be correct because I was a section manager - MR. FEATHERSTONE: At the time of your trip to Europe. BY THE WITNESS: A At the time of the trip to Europe. BY MR. HYNES : Q Was part of your duties as a senior research group leader to keep apprised of new developments and technology in the field? A As it relates to the needs of our company. ~[~hea I__ l_Jrb<3n (Rertifed SU-tLJ Reporter 134 Rcutti \_a Rolle Rtreet ------------------------- ' HARTOLDMON0007949 Keller - direct 86 Q Do you know if there is any specific group whose function it was to keep abreast of the new technology, such as this GC/MS at that time? A All of Monsanto Sciences are charged with this . Q To the best of your knowledge in that time period, and we a re talking about 19 6 5, you don't know of anyone who did know that this technology was avail able? A I know of no information on this. Q And your first information was the Widmark- Jensen report, is that correct? A Correct. Q While you were in Europe with Mr. Wheeler at the time you visited Dr. Widmark, did you also visit any other facilities or people in Europe? A We visited severa1 locations in the United Kingdom and Scot1and, one in Sco11and. Q Anywhere else? , A We also visited with the University of Utrecht, party by the name of Van Dender and Vos. Q Anywhere else that yourecall at that trip? A Additionally, wevisited Bayer. Q B-a-y-e-r? --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------,------ ""["bea 1_. Urban ReriRecJ RliortRnel Reporter 134 S ou tk j_o 'U'dilie Street ----------- HARTOLDMON0007950 Keller - direct 87 A Yes , and Prodelec, P-r-o-d-e-l-e-c, Company in France. Q Bayer is in Germany? A In Germany. Q Bayer and Prodelec were chemical firms which manuf ac tured products which contain PCBs? A Correct. Q Quickly run through each of those visits made in the United Kingdom and Scotland. What was the purpose of the visits and who did you visit or what organizations? A We visited -- MR . FEATHERSTONE: Which is the question, what is the purpose or which organizations? BY MR. HYNES : Q What was the purpose? MR. FEATHERS TONE: May I make a suggestion? MR. HYNES: Yes. MR. FEATHERSTONE: You might ask what was the purpose for all of those groups that he mentioned. BY MR. HYNES: Q What was the purpose of all four of the groups? A The purpose was to get available information obtained by others on PCBs and especially PCB-type 3Tt ea |__ . t_Jr[* n (^erb'^cd ^^orth and Reporter ________ !34 Route |_31 R(tIU Rtreet R\~ncaao, iliinoi? 60603 HARTOLDMONOOQ7951 Keller - direct 88 materials in the environment. ' MR. FEATHERSTONE: I take it including analytical type techniques that were used? BY THE WITNESS: A (Continuing.) And especially analytical techniques. BY MR. HYNES: Q Now we have purpose. Who did you visit, either who or what groups did you visit in the United Kingdom or S cotland? A We visited with a scientist by the name of Holden, H-o-l-d-e-n, at the Department of Fisheries . I can't give you more than that, a government department within S cotland. Would you like the other names first? Q Yes , right. A That was the only one in Scotland. Q In the U.K. who did you visit? A In United Kingdom we visited with Richardson at Shell Research, a scientist by the name of Tatton, T-a-t-t-o-n, at the Laboratory of the Government Chemists, and I believe that was it. Q As best you recall, what was discussed with Mr. Holden in Scotland? _____________________________________________ -- --------------- Thea |_. Urban Certified ortkond Reporter 154 Routk Lo Rolle Street ~ HARTOLDM6N0007952 Keller - direct 89 A His role was directed towards pesticides work and analytica1 determi nations and he had purs ued somewhat further the identification of PCB interferences in pes ticides and analytical work that they were carry ing out. The results of this visit with him added to what Widmark and Jensen had reported in that PCBs were being found in certain aquatic-type wildlife on the shores of Scotland. Q Did you have any discussions with him as to his opinions, as to where the PCB interference was coming from, the PCBs were coming from? MR. FEATHERSTONE: Do you mean how the PCBs were getting into these environmental samples? MR. IIYNES : The source of the PCBs. MR. FEATHERSTONE: Because I can tell you what PCB interference was coming f rom, PCBs. All right, do you have the question? BY THE WITNESS: A I don't recall this discussion on source with him. BY MR. HYNES: Q Are you saying you just don't recall any discus sion on source of PCBs? ~T^eei I_ Ce-iifieJ ortromd [Reporter ________________ 134 L_c3 icjcjo . Illinois 60603 HARTOLDMONOOQ7953 Keller - direct 90 A I can't recall there was any discussion on source. Q What was the main purpose of this visit, the analytica1 detection techniques with Mr. Holden? A That was the principal reason, to determine whether he had any other skills, modifications that would be helpful . Q Any other other than analytical techniques, any other discuss ions with him relating to PCBs? A , No . Q Did you discuss any findings which he had made concerning identifying PCBs, and I think you said aquatic animaIs and birds? A Yes, very generally discuss ed finding PCB-type materia 1 along with pesticides, again, wild life, aqua tic life, wildlife on the shores of Scotland. Q Do you recall any discussions concerning biodegradation with him? A No, I don't. Q Do you recall if there were any discussions or comments made concerning the types of PCBs that he had been finding in the higher or the lower chlorinated species ? Only that he too was concerned with the higher --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- _ ""[~bea |__ . Urban (^erii*-iod [d^eporter _____ 134 ^p>outn |_o ^cille Street C"L -------- I IAnAfK HARTOLDMONOOQ7954 Keller - direct 91 chlorinated, five chlorine and higher were dominating . his residues in many of their findings. Q So his findings, would it be correct, were similar to Widmark's? A He was quite supportive to what Widmark had found. Q Your discussions with Mr. Richardson of Shel1 Research, what were your discussions with him, what did they entail? MR. FEATHERSTONE: Can we go off the record for a second? MR. HYNES: Yes. (Discussion off the record.) (Question read.) BY THE WITNESS: A We dis cussed analytical technology for PCBs in the presence of pesticides. Their prime interest was analysis of materials for pesticides. They were concerned with identifying the interferences which they had observed which had been earlier reported out by Widmark and Jensen and proceeded with that applied math spectrometry and also did confirm that in their pesticide chromatograms, there were PCBs, certain PCB-type materials. ~P(ie> j_. Urixan --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------(^ertit-ied 5^ ortk^nj f^eporler ________ 154 L_<3 Street HARTOLDMONOOQ7955 Keller - direct 92 BY MR. HYNES: Q Again, this is basically a discussion on analytica1 techniques and the problems involved in that? A Correct. Q Any discussions dealing with the higher or lower chlorinated species and their findings ? A I don't recall that. Q Do you have any recollection of any bio degradation studies with them? A No. Q Mr. Tatton of the Laboratory of the Govern ment Chemis ts -- A England has great names of their various departments. Q What was generally discussed with Mr. Tatton? A Primarily the same information that was dis cussed a t Shell Research Laboratories, and the s ame conclusions in genera 1 came out of that. We felt they weren't as far along in capability or technique as was Shell. Shell had a very capable facility and we didn't get that much more information out of that visit. Q _______ _ Did Mr. Tatton ask you for similar information (Rertif ied *^3horikond Reporter "fbea (_. Urban 134 '5out^ [_o Roile Rtreet CLr o n o . I ll.noir 60603 HARTOLDMONOOQ7956 Keller - direct 93 involving analytica1 techniques, that is, your experience in it and things of that nature? A Only as a polite inquiry. We could see that he wasn't that interested in what we were doing in the States and I'm not sure he was that interes ted in what was being done in Sweden. Q All right. You also visited the University of Utrecht. What were your discus sions with the people the re, what did they entail? A We once again were interes ted in their technique which was,we found out, gas chromatography/ mass spectrometry. We were impressed with their skills and found th at they had a mas s spectrometer like the one we had and the principal user of that system for them had actually installed several of these German instruments like the one we had put in in the United States. We also listened to their findings of PCBs along certain regions of the Rhine and in the Netherlands, again, associated with certain species of wildlife and the findings of residues therein and, again, emphasis on a higher chlorinated, five and above species of PCBs. We also were interested in work that TU L. UrLn Certified S^orthomd [Reporter 134 |__ a Street C' h i r n n r, Mlmnic <30(303 HARTOLDMONOOQ7957 Keller - direct 94 they discussed with us on dibenzy1 furans in certain European manufactured products, and they indicated in a general way that they had observed some of the diben zy1 furans. Q And their indication of the dibenzyl furans was they had found them in the work products of the European manufacturers? A Yes, correct. Q Were they able to determine how the dibenzyl f urans got into the PCBs or did you have any dis cussions on that with them? A No, Q Did they theorize as to the amount of diben zy1 f urans they had been finding in their work compared to the amount of PCBs they had been finding, I mean, a percentage or amount of dibenzyl furans in comparison to the PCB levels they were finding in their work product? MR. FEATHERSTONE: As a matter of clarification, the discussion, as I understand the testimony, was about the finding of PCB residue in environmental samples. The second dis cuss ion on diben zy1 furans was the finding of diben zy1 furans in PCB products. You have two particular products and - "Thee I_ Urban Certify ortLnd Reporter' ----------------------- 134 Sout^ Salle Street O' \cooo, | ! ! i nc ;? 60603 HARTOLDMONOOQ7958 Keller - direct 95 MR. IIYNES: Then I am confused. BY MR. IIYNES: Q Was the finding of dibenzyl furans in the products themseIves that they were testing? A Yes . Q They didn't find them in any of their species of wildlife or whatever they were examining in the environment? A Checking in the environment? To my knowledge, they had not found them in the environmental materials. Q Did they mention which manufacturers were finding the diben zy1 f urans in their pro ducts ? MR. FEATHERSTONE: I am sorry, could I have that question read back? (Question read.) BY MR. HYNES : Q Which products were they finding it in, did they identify the manufacturers? A My best reco1lection is that one was a product called Clophen; C-l-o-p-h-e-n, I think it is. Q That is the only one you recall? A Yes. Q Do you recall who manufactured it or what "J"bea |__ . l^Jrban Certified ortk^nj [Reporter ------------- ^outk |_a ^><5i!le Street a 606D3\CO~OO , Illinois- HARTOLDMONOOQ7959 Keller - direct 96 it was used for? A No. MR. FEATHERSTONE: Was it manufactured by a Western European company? THE WITNESS: Yes . BY MR. HYNES : Q Were they able to identify the quantity of dibenzy1 furans in their product? A They made an es timate of levels of diben zy 1 furans present. I don't reca11 absolute figures, but it was very low amounts in terms of a few parts per mil lion or less that they found. Q Did you discuss any explana tion of why the diben zy1 furans were found in their product? MR. FEATHERSTONE: You a 1 ready asked that. You asked whether there was any theorizing about how the dibenzy1 furans got into the PCBs. MR. HYNES: Yes. MR. FEATHERSTONE: And the answer was he doesn't recall the discussion. BY MR. HYNES : Q Was th e answer you didn't reca11 any dis cus sion about how the dibenzy1 furans got into the product? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ea L- UrLn SSrtSnd [Reporter ______ 154 Soutf, |_* S.He Sireet Illinois1 60605 HARTOLDMON0007960 Keller - direct 97 A Correct. Q Any other discussions with the people at the University of Utrecht that you recall? A No. Q The Bayer Company in Germany, do you recall what was discussed with the people at Bayer? A Yes . Q What was discussed? A We primarily informed them of what we were doing and our concerns with PCBs and asked them i f they were doing anything of a simi1a r manner, es pecially on analytical work. Our finding on this was they were not doing very much. They had no work going directed toward de termining PCBs in the environment or more sophisticated analytica1 techniques, such as the GC/mass spectrometry technique. MR. OLIVER: Could I have the answer read? (Answer read.) BY MR. HYNES: Q In other words, they weren't doing a heck of a lot at the time? A Right. Q _____ ___Certified Did you have any other discuss ions with them orthond ICfipoftsT' TU L. UrU --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 154 Coutk j__o reet C~L I 11 5050^ HARTOLDMONOOQ7961 Keller - direct 98 that you can recal1? A No. Q Did you make any suggestions to them that maybe they should get going? A Oh, yes . We encouraged them to do that and they said they would, Q Why did you encourage them to get moving on improving their analytical techniques and the like? A Because we were concerned about finding PCBs in the environmen felt it was a concern type of product. Q them ? Anything els A No . Q Did you ever peop le a t the Universi dibe nzy 1 furans in one MR. FEATHERS TONE: was it d id he discuss MR, HYNES: Yes. BY THE WITNESS: A I am pausing because I don't remember the sequence of our visits. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------- - 1~"]~bea __ Urban Certified ortkemd Reporter _____ IM Routk l_ct Rdlle Rtreet a icooc, llknot? 60603 HARTOLDMONOOQ7962 Keller - direct 99 BY MR. HYNES: Q You don't recal1 discussing it with Bayer? A I don't recall. Q Now, the other meeting you had with the people at Prodelec in France, is that correct? A Yes . Q Would you briefly describe what discussion you had with those people? A Primarily discussion, we informed them of the finding of PCBs in the environment, what we were doing and asked if they were doing anything of a similar nature, and analytically they were not. They were much farther back in terms of skills to be able to go ahead and do this type of work compared to Bayer. MR. FEATHERSTONE: Prodelec and Bayer are both PCB manufacturers? THE WITNESS Yes BY THE WITNESS : A (Continuing.) So we came away from that visit, to my reco1lection, primarily informing them, BY MR. HYNES : Q Basically you were informing them of what was going on and the available techniques? Certified |_. [_Jr>kcin ortLnd Reporter________ _ 134 Soutk L* Salle Streefc a \COOQ, | 111 nor 9 60603 HARTOLDMONOOQ7963 Keller - direct 100 A And we learned very little from them. , Q Does that then cover the organizations or people you visited on the European trip? A Yes. Q In any of the discuss ions with any of these individuals or groups, do you recall any discus sions on the source of PCBs or on controlling the sources of PCBs into the environment? A Yes . Q Do you recall which persons or groups you discus sed that with? MR. FEATHERSTONE: Which that? Your first question was compound, A or B? BY MR. HYNES : Q Do you recall which groups you discussed it with? MR. FEATHERSTONE: If any. MR. HYNES: Strike that. BY MR. HYNES: Q Do you recall who youdiscussed the sources of contamination of PCBs with? A Yes . Q Who did youdiscuss that with? A Widmark. ~Tkec> |_. Urban ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Certified SC crtCnd [dfeporter ____________ 134 |_a SfCe Ctreet O;c,,o, | 11 inois- 60603 HARTOLDMONOOQ7964 Keller - direct 101 Q Any other group? A That's the principal one that I can recall. Q You just do not recall discussing with the others? A Yes. Q Do you recall what your discussions with Dr. Widmark were concerning the sources of PCBs? A He was suggesting that perhaps this was coming from paint on ships in the waterways or some coastal areas. That was a principal source. At one of these places, and I cannot re call where, other sources of contamination were discussed in a general way, but I cannot recall spe cifics for you. Perhaps Elmer Wheeler, who would be representing, would be our client, the Medical Department, would be able to respond at length because he would be the person responsible for bringing that type of information back, reporting it. Q But you don't specifically recal1 what the discussions entailed other than -- A No. Q -- other than Widmark saying it might be f rom the ships, ship paints? A No, I don 1t. Theo I_ LJrLan ^fior'lkcinj f^eporte 134 [_a Street mwno, inou 60603 HARTOLDMONOOQ7965 Keller - direct Q Do you recall yourself suggesting any sources of PCDs? A No. Q Do you recall any discussions concerning the control of the sources of PCBs with any of these groups or individua Is ? A Yes, Q Do you recall which groups that came up in discussion with? A Again, that wasWidmark. Q Anyone else other than Widmark that you can recall? A No. Q Do you recall what the discussion was con cerning the control of PCBs with Dr. Widmark? A He recommended the usage in limited closed systems. Q Did he expand on that in terms of why he felt that was a good suggestion or what he considered to be clo sed systems? Did he expand on that at all? A Only that he felt this would minimize what ever pathways there might be for escape of'PCBs into the environment. Q Do you recall any other suggestions by him ea L. U C-lif.eJ cl Reporter l34Sutk SR'eStreet O IC<?CIO, Illinois 60603 312 - 782-3332 ______ HARTOLDMONOOQ7966 Keller - direct 103 in terms of control of sources? A No. Q Do you recall either yourself or Mr. Wheeler discussing this or s aying any thing with regard to his suggestion? A No. MR. HYNES: Why don't we break for lunch now. (At 12:45 o'clock p.m. a lunch recess was taken until 1:15 o'clock p.m., this same day.) The'? I_ Urban Certified SUtL nd Reporter __________ 154 Routli 1_o Rtreet III;TM;, 60605 HARTOLDMONOOQ7967