Document dRMbYNnXXEm2EQ89Kqw5oRG5
FILE NAME Owens Illinois OWILL
DATE 1985 Dec 6
DOC OWILL080
DOCUMENT DESCRIPTION Legal - Continued Testimony of Gerrit W. Scheppers
M.D.
COST $ PAID BY PLF DEF TBA No
IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT FOR THE SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF TEXAS GALVESTON DIVISION
WILLIAM J. KORNEGAY
S
sssss
VS.
sssss
sssss
MANVILLE SALES
sssss
CORPORATION ET AL
S
CIVIL ACTION NO 81-131
CONSOLIDATED )
BEFORE
PROCEEDINGS THE HONORABLE HUGH
GIBSON
f /
DECEMBER 6 1985
VOLUME VI
CONTINUED DIRECT EXAMINATION
OF
GERRIT W. H. SCHEPERS M.D.
*
EXHIBIT TENDER
COURTEO
COCUROTEUORCTOEUROTECOCOOUURTREOTOERTOERS
1560 W. Bay Area Boulevard Suite 280 Houston Texas 77546 280-0015
APPEARANCES
Messrs Robert E. Ballard of the law firm of
Messrs Abraham Watkins Nichols Ballard Onstad &
Friend 800 Commerce Street Houston Texas 77002 and Lawrence Madeksho of the Law Offices of Lawrence Madeksho
8320 Gulf Freeway Houston Texas 77087 representing the
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Plaintiffs
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Ms. Elizabeth Thompson and Mr. Robert D.
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Arredondo of the law firm of Messrs Butler & Binion 1600
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Allied Bank Plaza Houston Texas 77002 representing
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Defendant Raymark
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mera 18
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Messrs Arthur Stamm John A. Sullivan and
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Walter E. Workman of the law firm of Messrs Baker &
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Botts One Shell Plaza Houston Texas 77002 representing
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Defendant Illinois and the Wellington Group
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Messrs Samuel E. Stubbs of the law firm of Fulbright & Jaworski Eighth Floor MBank Building Houston Texas 77002 and James H. Crosby of the law firm
of Messrs Brown Hudgens & Richardson 1495 University Blvd. Mobile Alabama 36609 representing Defendant Corning Fiberglas
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Messrs Walter F. Conrad and F. Witcher
McCullough of the law firm of Messrs Baker & Botts One
Shell Plaza Houston Texas 77002 representing Defendant
GAF
Ms. Sandra F. Clark of the law firm of Messrs Mehaffy Weber Keith & Gonsoulin InterFirst
Tower Beaumont Texas 77704 representing Defendant
Standard
Ms. Gail C. Jenkins of the law firm of Messrs Benckenstein Norvell Bernsen & Nathan Sixth Floor InterFirst Tower P. O. Box 551 Beaumont Texas
77704 representing Defendant Celotex
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Mr. R. Lyn Stevens of the law firm of Messrs Weller Wheelus & Green Fifth Floor Petroleum
Building P. O. Box 350 Beaumont Texas 77704 representing Defendant Fibreboard
Mr. John H. Boswell of the law firm of Messrs Boswell & Hallmark 2100 InterFirst Plaza Houston Texas 77002 representing Defendant Armstrong
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Mr. Ronald E. Cook of the law firm of
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Messrs Mayor Day & Caldwel 70l0 Milam Houston Texas
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77002 representing Pittsburgh
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Mr. Frank M. Bean of the law firm of Messrs
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Bean & Manning 1611 Weslayan Tower 24 Greenway Plaza
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Houston Texas 77046 representing Defendant Picher
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experiments and check what had been accomplished and to
develop a report suitable for publication on the biological action of the material which is what I then did
Q.
Okay
Now to educate us a little bit the Kaylo
contained 15 to 20 percent asbestos did it not
A. The Kaylo itself is the trade name applyintgo
different kinds of products with different compositions
sometimes with 15 percent chrysotile sometimes with
chrysotile mixed with amosite and sometimes with different
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quantities of these The product we studied at the Saranac
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Laboratory for the term inhalation study it was
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shorter finding tests but the long study was
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continued several years was Kaylo with 15 percent
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chrysotile in it
_
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Q.
Now was the conclusion of Saranac that the dust from
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Kaylo exposed users to a hazard
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A. Yes sir
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Q.
In publishing this report did you say that Kaylo could
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cause cancer
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A.
No.
I described changes of the kind that we put on the
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board there the epithelialization and the deformation of
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the lung structure around the bronchioles which I called
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an adenomatoid change which is a way of saying it looks
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like a tumor That's as far as I was willing to go
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because the cells have not metastasized to another location
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and I used the metastasizing or the spreading from one
point to another as the criterion for saying this is a
cancer versus this is a tumor growth
Q. As of the time of the completion of the experiments
the cancer had not yet appeared as scientifically defined
A.
Yes
Q.
If when you were writing up the report you had been
asked the opinion Do you have an opinion based upon
reasonable medical probability as to whether or not these
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changes will become cancerous in the future after a few
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more years what would have been your opinion
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A.
That they are a precursor to cancer in other words
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that they would lead to cancer
eet
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Q. Could you describe for the Court and jury the nature
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of the experiments that were conducted on these animals
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you might tell us what type animals they were and how the
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experiment was conducted and why it was conducted
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A. Yes It was a typical Saranac Laboratory study spread
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over three -- slightly more than three years during which
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animals of three species were kept in cages into which
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quantities of Kaylo dust were caused to flow by mechanical
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agitating machinery And the animals lived under those
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circumstances for the same periods of time as might have
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been the experience of a human being working in a factory
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that was how the factory was designed In other words
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79.
approximately eight hours a day five days a week and then
a rest period and then the same the next day or the next
week
And that was continued for three or four years
almost four years
The animals were sampled which is a euphemism for
saying that numbers of them were taken and killed and
studied
And so as time went by there were fewer and
fewer animals left
And towards the end I think there
were about nine or so animals that ran the full course of
exposure and showed the maximum effects of the inhaled dust Q. All right
A. There was another phase of the study --
Q. Doctor could I break your train of thought there
A.
Yes
Q.
It has been represented to this Court and jury that
about 450 animals were subjected to the tests and only 9
showed evidence of fibrosis
I think you just covered that
Could you explain that to us
A.
I'll have to look at my report to be sure of the
numbers but that is a positive test the way the tests are done First of all a whole lot of animals died at the
start which suggested either that there was an epidemic
amongst the animals or that the dust was too toxic for them
to live in
So that reduced the numbers
And then from
there on the survivors which meant the toughest animals
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were sampled progressively
Q.
Excuse me
By sampled you mean you would kill them
A.
Killed and tissues cut up into sections and put on
microscopes and chemical analysis made of the tissues to see how much dust was in the lung
Q. Okay
A.
Of course with the last sampling that had to be the
least number because those are the only ones that were
left were nine The test of asbestosis is not just
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whether or not fibrosis occurs
Fibrosis is just one of
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the manifestations of what asbestos dust does The animals
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developed this emphysema that we talked about they
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developed this adenomatoid change
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Q.
Precancerous
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A. Yes the precancerous changes And they developed the
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fibrosis in those that lived long enough Remember this
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is only a few years and it normally takes many years for
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asbestosis to develop
It doesn't occur immediately
The
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fibrous component of it Also the dust exposure in this
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particular experiment was relatively low It was
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approximately a quarter to a sixth of the usual method in
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which asbestos experiments were conducted in the Saranac
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Laboratory
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Q. I need to stop you there Doctor because two thoughts
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come to my mind and I need to get it out before I forget
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them
A.
Yes
Q.
Of the nine animals that were left were they killed or
sacrificed and examined
A.
Yes
Q. Of the nine that remained how many had what you would
call asbestosis in animals
A.
All of them
100 percent
Q. 100 percent
A.
Yes
Q.
Now I'm coming back to where you left off
These
Kaylo experiments began I believe in 1943 did they not
A. Yes Right
Q.
At Saranac
A.
Yes
Q.
Now before 1943 Saranac had been performing asbestos
experiments for members of the asbestos industry for some
number of years had it not
A. Since 1930 yes sir
Q. Now would some of the early experiments have been with
what would be classified pure asbestos
A.
Yes
Q. The Kaylo experiments would be conducted with
containing dust
A. Yes sir
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Q.
That was not pure asbestos
A. It was diluted the asbestos was diluted by the
of the hydrous calcium silicate component of the presence
product
Q.
Okay
Now was there a difference in the dust exposure
in the Kaylo tests compared to what had been done before
that time
A. Yes sir Dr. Gardner in his 18 large experiments
had determined over the period preceding that the 12 years
preceding that one could evoke in the typical experimental
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animals such as the guinea pig asbestosis in the form of
if 12 fibrosis you expose that animal for three to four years
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in a dust environment ranging from 700 to 900 million
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particles per cubic foot of air And that produced the
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standard direction which was our measure with which to
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calibrate the effects of the new dust and that was the
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laboratory biological measure
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Q. All right
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A. For the Kaylo experiments the dust levels were set at
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a lower dose
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Q.
A lower dose
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A.
Yes
About a sixth of the dose that was going or being
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used in the other asbestos experiments
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Q.
Now I want to be sure I understand this
If we took
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the prior asbestos experiments would they be with pure
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asbestos or mixed dust
A.
With pure asbestos
Q.
Okay
If you took the hundred --
A.
Whatever pure asbestos is but it's the asbestos as it
comes from the factory Q. I believe that's chrysotile with the amphiboles shaken
out of it
If you took the pure asbestos then allegedly pure
test it at higher levels seven or 800 million and with
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the Kaylo which was a mixed dust only containing 20
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percent asbestos at what level was it tested
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A. About 120 to -- there were two experiments One was
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about 120 to 60 I believe And the other was about 200 a
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little over 200
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Q.
So to make a comparison between the asbestos fiber
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exposure would we then have to take 20 percent of the 120 --
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let's take the 200 because I can figure that one a lot
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quicker Twenty percent of that would be
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A. Forty
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Q. Thank you 40,000 as composed to 700 to 800,000 in the
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three tests
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A.
Yes
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Q.
Okay
And it would determine that even at this low
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exposure that could cause asbestosis
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A.
Yes sir
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Q.
There was a letter from Illinois to Dr. Gardner
proposing these tests and outlining them in about 1943
MR BALLARD
I'll have them after lunch Your
Honor
THE COURT
Yes sir
Q.
By Mr. Ballard
But if I may paraphrase it when Dr.
Gardner wrote back to Illinois he said You're
starting out with a class hazard
A. Yes sir
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Q. All right Bearing in mind Dr. Hueper's 1943 statement
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connecting asbestos and cancer would you agree with Dr.
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Gardner that including 15 to 20 percent asbestos in this
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product would indicate that you're starting out with a
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class hazard
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A. The emphasis is not where your question puts it The
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emphasis is that Dr. Gardner the product as described to
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Dr. Gardner in the '43 correspondence and the results of
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preliminary analyses indicated that the product contained
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both asbestos and hydrous calcium silicate and some
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unmodified quartz particles in other words silicon
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dioxide
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And my understanding of what Dr. Gardner meant by
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that statement was that if you combine silica exposure with
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asbestos exposure you are creating a class hazard
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because the laboratory had done many studies on human
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beings who had worked in factories where they were exposed both to silica and asbestos and they were killed in five to ten years time showing that it was an extremely extremely
hazardous combination of the two harmful substances
I think that was what Dr. Gardner was focusing on
and I believe that's why the dust levels were adjusted
downwards to reduce the role of the silica in the test
THE COURT
This would be a good time to recess
for lunch And please be back at 1:15 again
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Whereupon after the luncheon recess the proceedings
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continued within the presence and hearing of the jury as
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follows
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THE COURT
Be seated
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MR BALLARD May I proceed
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THE COURT
Please
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Q.
By Mr. Ballard
Dr. Schepers we were talking about
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I believe the relationship between Saranac Laboratory
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Illinois and the product Kaylo which contained
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asbestos Did you know a Dr. Shook Charles Shook and a
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Mr. Willis Hazard
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A. Yes sir
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Q. Could you relate to the Court and jury what Dr. Shook's
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position was and who he worked for
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