Document dQ8pV1qJpGGweEwomDqbKzJzQ

FILE NAME: Union Carbide (UC) DATE: 1989 Mar 15 DOC#: UC191 DOCUMENT DESCRIPTION: Letter - Deposition of Dr. Carl Durnehl Voi 2 2 DicTxic; c o u r t 3 4 s i x t :-j j u d i c i a l d i .-t a i c t 7 PET.3 Ol'.-.L INJURY 'C-.RIY 5 Arthur A. Frohse, 0 ana .Islcn J. ITrahso, Ku^c-ano *incl './i 7 c Plaintiffs, vs. 9 Anchor Packing Company, 10 st a l ., 11 Defendants. 12 t - ` IS 14 VOLUME II 15 16 ! 17 Telephonic deposition of CARL U. DERInEHL, 13 ::. L. , taken pursuant to Notice of Taking Deposition, and 19 taken before Kirby A. Kennedy, a Notary Public in and for 20 the County of Hennepin, State of Minnesota, on the 15th day 21 of March 1939, from Springfield, Missouri, c o n a m c i n g at 22 approximately 1:30 o'clock p.m. 2 J 24 25 UC 01732 KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATE.: I APPEARANCES: _ Hw RTOGS, ;`iICilALL FLU3r,T v p SP..POL- K 1 " c of .ne Low 7irn cr ->3tvis.; ' ? M e* on behalf o f Pliir.ci;* ' ' lan*- 5^033, appeared for a.-. 4 5 6 8 5 10 11 12 14 15 i *J 17 IS 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 of .-!rra iUf'pr r EJQJIR; the La., irn 250**3icond* Avaaue S o u t h ^ nn T ^ 3 U U e 12# ?he Cr^ s i n g .t-Ouant vonwed Corporotion , B-,UC;! JOUSS. EECUIRE, of th 'a, si, , `A~ ^ 4 BEilsotl, 2230 .lowest c,nt-r oo - f " oe c' Minneapolis, a i n a w o t a 53432-3900^ , "s!"nth ' toaiawaraj'^inc^ ^ i T - o - p 5 A J"stron9 Uor1^ Indu'strle^ Rational Gypsum o n p a n i r - ^ ^ i - c ^ n ^ r r i b e r ^ r 1" ' U n i o n ^ M d "ens- : U i " =. m e , T L r u Unln C P - o i o n and United States G ^ u n oniany, Via.L L j.Arl D. HARVARD, ESOUTRP n,f *.t r of DLASINGAME, BURCH, GARRARD i 3 S ^ " PC a a n % fT FlrB Avenue North, P.o. Dox 3*? XANi' PC' 440 College for and on bahalf of 3of"ndant`'Srf; ^ - a 30`03' and members of CCR. ' * Jnion Carbi^e Corporation rt!4THOlIY J. KELLEY, DRYE 4 WARRElf, 175 Jersey 07960, appeared "or Carbide C o r p . ? ! : " rconrrar, - 3V . - ' th* t4w ?il~- S5 rr et' Morris1:0wr- 7ew *ad a * * ' * J ` d a n b Uni on ;.(tt r3 1 r i,n,,vGREG_ORY TROST', ES3QU'U^IiR.vEi< ooff tfth,e LTaw ,,F.irm -ir `U^LiiR Sc NEARY, Suite 506. ParV at,-,- , ,, , ^ t -ct-j -.7-,,,-,^ _ , , i'arx National Bank 3ui''''oa o.o3 J-y-ata Boulevard, Minneapolis, Minnesota 5 5 ^ ` 9< appeared for and on behalf of D-f, M T T , Company. t-naant A. w. Cnesterton UEAGiJER, GEER*. MARKHAM, ^ D E ' f th* 1,4w 7ir m o: BREN1IAN, 4200 H u l t i f o o i s ^ o E r ^ j ^ T ' i 'S f S " * * Street. Mrnneapolis. H i n n e s o ^ 5540^ " o!arId V TM bahalf of Defendant A.H. Eannatt Co^ a n y f and on LISA R. MICALLSF. c3oriTo*? e T MG-I,Lr3*.DuORr.7F=v=a-nvd,JAC-OB.BERG_ER, 1150 Capii^i cCeennttrael PPlalzaa,z i^gc^ North Jabaaha, oaint Paul, Minnesota cc10> and on behalf of Defendant " i T S r ! ^ 0^ ? " " KIRBY A. KENNEDY Assnrrs'npe I ^ E. EIJMOP, ECU!RE, cf the L.v.; r i m .iAiJM, '.'ALTER, dURKAEP, LEATHERS '.'ALTER, 330 Jo'.-.:-. ~. hammons Parkway, Suita 000, Epringiieid, Hissour' o2 -PFrad for and on bahaif of Da fa.*far.t ':. R. *r r '"`.`y * iy 0 1 - r * Xt.'iwx.,: 7 ^irscc Examination by Mr. Harvard o Recross-Cximination by Mr. Polk 9 Aacros-Examination by Mr. 3rownson 10 Cross-Examination by Mr. Thorns jo 11 Redirect Examination by Mr. Harvard 12 -cross-Examination by Mr. Polk i: 14 Larnehl Deposition Exhibit 47 narked X3 Dernehl Deposition Exhibit 48 marked 16 Dernahl Deposition Exhibit 49 marked x / X o 19 20 21 22 2^ 24 P'S-e P?.C9 213 -Da - -^ 23d Page 25o Page 257 Page 262 Page 198 Page 204 ? age 203 M 4 i-4. iARV Y JD . _ , `v -u -> s i continuities o . t" S ---'csl:lor- of C". Curl Dernehl which was begun on | :j. i 9 . : on Jill harvard end with no in hn-.hony buurn. | -i ere here r e p r i n t i n g anion Carbide. Br. Dcrnrtl is w-ro Present. he are in Cpringfield, .Missouri and also ^ru3_ni fer v.;. A. Grace is -- -13. BISHOP: Gary z . Bishop. 3 AR. HARVA.RD: And we are in Springfield, y Missouri, on telephone hookup. Dr. Dernehl, you wars 10 previously sworn in on .-.arch 10, 1989 last weak ,,hen your 11 deposition VMS initiated. Co you understand that you are 12 still uniir oath? : j THa WITNESS: Yes, I do. 14 lIPv* :iA-WA.RD: Do you understand that you 1 5 u`3 t0 1811 c h ' truth in Y=ur statements? 10 Tiij, JITilEGS: Yes, I do. 17 HR. HARVARD: You understand this is a 13 continuation of that deposition, is that right' 19 THE WITNESS: Yos, I do. 20 AR. HARVARD: Does anyone have any 21 --Lii_nts th_y need to place on the record or things they 22 wanc^to sat out of the way before I g0 through what 23 questions I have with the Doctor? 24 . MR. 3R0WN5O5J: Well, this is Bob 25 Brownson. Just for the record, I want to say that even s 1 ::,0U^ ` "r3 conducting direct nxar.in.iion hire tcv.v ..... 2 ^ r = not: jOia^ to iv-l that that prucluoss us frcr. call::-- Sr# *raahl as 3 - ^ n s s s at trial in this case as w 2 b, inti tied ;j under the rules. iH. JJ.ISS: That's understood. .`IR. HARVARD: Anyone else have m y statements they want to make for the record before I get a under way? 9 1R. PCLX: This is Mike Pelk 10 representing the Plaintiff. i have a question. \ u 11 question is hither or not you intend on using any of the 12 .marked documents during your direct examination' 13 MR. HARVARD: I am not sure what vou 14 "`ean ** marked documents. There are thrae documents I do 15 intend to show.to the Doctor during the course of the 1S examination and copies of them are present with Sruce Jones 17 who Mica to h 3vS the,, -.hire because he thought everybody 13 elSi w m going to be at a that location. Tl-.osa thrae, is 19 everyone there where B r u c , is other than those who are h a r e 20 with ma? 21 MR. JONES: Uo. 22 (At this time a discussion was held off 23 the record.) ) MR. HARVARD: Do you have a place where v. 25 documents can be faxed to you? KIRSY A. KENNEDY & Assrirri'i'pc 1 2 4 5 6 7 a y 10 11 12 13 14 13 13 17 IS 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 i "R- POLK: y.js, I o. ii:" HARVARD: 3ruce, do you hd'-e the c_pa :i:y to fax -'.os a three documents do him? M R . JONES: he have in V* :ik. HARVARD: hill you piaasa do that' MR. JONES: I will do u*1a t <unv POLK: Hang on. 4 MR. HARVARD: I have a number of questions , .11.v3 / tlicit I <=-n a3k if we can perhaps save son.-! time if : go on and get the questions out of the way that c.on t make reference to those documents and when you hove received the documents you can let us know if you want tc i creak to have an opportunity to review them, MR. POLK: That's fine with me, if 3ruue is comfortable going out and faxing them down to me right now. now. I will give him the number. She is coning in right . MR. HARVARD: I an happy to do what you all want. If you all want to get then before we start, w => will do that. A* yu ^on MR. POLK: That's not necessaryj 'Bill. m *n<^ why I don't I just interrupt you while 7 S 3t the number here. Here she is. Fax number, Bruce, is 012-437-2732. , MR. JONES: I will get those down to you KIRBY A. KENNEDY & .ASSOCIATES lfil 0 \ QO*}-! oec V -- ?OLK:: Thank you. Go ih';jd . -iat 1 f.uak i 500c. HARVARD: Anthony ... suge, \ i car : ask each nastier. .V2 i/ill -uuse bn-.-fly before I indicate to the Doctor to answer 3 w..4.w i*. anyone nos objections to the question they c.4n piece then cn the record at tint tine because otherwise i nicjht be confusing with everybody talking on the phone. * chat acceptable to everyone? ' 2 i A?.. HARVARD: D I SECT C. Doctor, t: the .Imposition last week you ,,-ere -sked a nunber of questions about your background with Union Carbide, is that right? . A. Yes. Q. You were born on August 13, 1913, which sake you now 75 years old, correct? A. Yes ` Q. Carbide? Doctor, what year did you begin with Union A. 1947. Q. I want to very briefly cover again what your positions were with Union Carbide for purposes of this portion of the deposition. When you began with Union _________________ '' <' KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES. v-a* Uiw ; you : ..13-i-al director of U nion - T ~Xds Ulty chemical plant, correct' A. That's right:. - :n 1955 you aovsd iuto * position ts ussrotant -`.-u.o. respect to thsir chcnical plant a.-.J tr.cn moved to ::-=>/ y-,-'. ,_ . ^ s . i s m e t correct? i . Tw - I ^ A .Haw * wcrrecc. 9 10 11 .12 13 14 15 lo 17 IS 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 : ?h* in 1963 you became director of toxicology for that company, finally i,, 1955 becoming associate corporate medical director, is that correct? A. Tnat's correct. 2 . And your background in terms of your medical training li&d h>*2cn in *u ' 's---t - -*-* a-ca cr occupational medicine right? A. That's right. Q. You do no. claim today to be an expert on such issues as asbestos fiber types, epidemiology or the ideology.of asbestos disease, do you' -1R. POLL: I wii\ object to the form of the question as beincj leading J* that objection. . *ii.s is Mike Polk making _ ' 14R- SX3OSS0H-. question as multiple. 3Y MR. HAVARD: : also object to the * Doctor' tall us whether or not you claim to be KIRBY A. KENNEDY fcASSOCIATES 1 2 T,\ 6 G 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 13 j* . ^/ 13 19 23 21 22 23 24 25 I -* --pi.t O.t ijbi;3:0j iibee tyoos? A ho, I do r.ot. i *. Dorror, pleas 1 tell us whether or not you 1 -iais: to 3e ur. exp_>rt today or. epidemiology? A. -Jo, I Jo not. a. Doctor, pi..ti53 tell us today whet'. r or n you claim to bo on expert on the subject of the ideology asbestos disuses? A. I wouldn't say that 1 am an axp.rt but I have tha knowledge that would b. expected of any individual ,,ho is boats certified in occupational medicine. C. Doctor, would you tall us whether or not tc some d-.grea all of those subjects that I just questioned you aoout usrs in fact involved in your stadias ar.d in you: work of occupational medicine? ^ Yes, they ware. W. Doctor, when you w o r k 'd for Union Carbide torpor -`ion, approximately how many marketable chemicals fell under your responsibility when you were assistant or director of toxicology, assistant medical director and associate corporate medical director? A. Somewhere in excess of 700. Q. At what point in time, if you recall, did Union Carbide Corporation begin issuing toxicological or toxicology reports to their customers? In 105j `j . 3 4 7 6 9 A U 11 12 13 14 15 15 17 13 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 w. you or o - On *hich of tne marketable c1'->- c~-'s a .. .,,^ _ , .=r_ ouc.n r-sports typically issued' *-- Initially they were issued on large volume '*'"-ls t"-t a d d in tonnage lots and subs ?qj anti-/ ? . d 3d to m v ti'iJtL Union Curtius sold* th. sr.it M j o r i t y cf Wh*n Union Cirbid. ptaptred toxicology r,psr. on their nark stable cra-^rii^^ 1i t-m .vu r , to whom, if you know, were these reports disrributc-d? A. for than. Ihey were distributed to anybody that kai Tboy '-'3 distributed to various gov.ria.nt.l agencies in the United Ptates as well as overseas. They were -- essentially that's it. G. With respect to these toxicology reports, Doctor, which part of the Union Carbide Corporation or which division of Union Carbide Corporation was typically the group that you would expect to distribute those repor if there was such a group? * A. Initially the concept was that these were to be in the hands of sales people who would distribute the reports to customers at the time of the sal2s visit. Due to certain problems in keeping the supply updated and in sales offices, it was eventually set up that they were distributed from our office to whoever the sales people KIRBY A. KEMIJEDY C lCCn/'Tmpo 7 5 3 1C 11 12 13 14 15 1 o 17 13 13 20 21 22 23 24 2 5 '-.a.<S-l. UC CO send tne.:t -.o or to any custor/.c-r who v w rota to us ^n3 *> D c o n e "l copy. j u toxicology raporc '-.aa or spar aa on ^ particular cl;cmical marketed 'ey Uni -'orper etion, dlL* It 1W/3 ramain in that form :*s >-I 4.*Csjd and UU*ju'ti11<cJi? Ho. it did not. Chora were revisions that i;" ' i -:aci2 * s knowledge -.-me to hand. ` Q. `'3 medical or as assistant medical cirector for Union Carbide-, then director of toxicology, and then ajjociate corporate medical director, what efforts did vou tu ksep up to date with medical scientific literature on u.,-10 eh m i cals that ware being marketed by Union Carbide Corporation? rt* We received a number of journals that are published on occupational medicine, industrial hygiene and on toxicology. We attended national meetings, symposia and such to try to keep up to date. Q. Were some of those discussed last week at the deposition, some of the. different publications which you received and synposia attended by you and others in your department? a yt s a- Were there others, do you believe, in 'addition to those symposia, which members .of the toxicology -- KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES z t Ur5ica -- ^ cone :rr. ii with toxicology ;y ,ls. \t h&Ve 6ttend-d but vhich i a\ There wC's yu o net now rmember by ntr. ' probably u number of them that : cannot now recall. i cun ricali that one that I did not ***al on oofore ware com.) symposia on vinyl calori la that were vary much inter -s.e in. 7 Q. Doctor, I wane to sh ift gears or* f4 ZTiov ri.i n 3 now and talk to you about Culidria asbestos. Oo you 9 recognize the nane Calidria? 10 A. Yes, I do. 11 Q. And w.vat about that name lo you rec-alL, wha*- i 2 is it? 13 A. It was a cride name for a short fiber asbestos 14 mined by Union Carbide at King City and also processed at 15 King City. . x O Q. Is King City inCalifornia, Doctor15 17 A. Yes, it is. Q. 'Was this area in which it was mined also 19 sometimes referred to as the Coalinga deposit' 20 A. Yes, it is. 21 Q. Of what type fiber wasthe Calridia asbestos 22 from the 23 A. It was a high purity short fiber chrysotile 24 type 25 Q* Is there there something about -- let me KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES 1 rj;,hr44* t>! * " 13 sntic.>i2 two .]Liili-:s, ,,=,r. in i'OJ; ^crip-.ion. , h t fiber 5r.l >.i,y. ?!)tUy, nbt tcasiderutions lid the short fiber nature of the Celidria asbestos orrsent ires your perspective -;nion to 7 8 9 10 11 '12 13 14 - o i o 17 13 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 "iu is tor.? 5 ** --- c-fc-a* .hut product, if you undjrstanl -y A. Thi Or--- majority of asbestos nine! a n u c : i m the United States, as a natter of fact about: DO percora of it, Was a ions,- fiber chrysotile type which has its origin primarily from large mines in Canada but also from : number of minis in the United States. The Coaling* fiber was unique because of the fact, that it was a short fiber typt.-, which was relatively new at the time it was introduced. n. boctor, would you describe for us hoi/ you would distinguish in your mind between a short fiber chrysotile asbestos and a long fiber ohrysotile asbestos in terms of the length of those fibers? A. Roughly speaking, when you speak of long fiber sbestos you are talking about asbestos which has the very great majority of its fibers greater than five microns in length and e-great many of them more than ten microns in length. 0. Do you recall what the average length was of ths fibres found in the Coalings deposit which Union KIRBY A. KENNEDY fc ASSOCIATES '--~ \ .It. J.'^ - im.* C-rbiJe a -3 .nurkecinj? 'J" x -tC r`0t r-calL '-'nat the iverag 3 5iz; i z s b 1 I Know -.hat cost of it was under five microns m l ?r.gch. Q- You mentioned j second consideration or a oeccr.d quality that was unique about Cslidris whan you suii 'l'4i3l` -urit/ ' high puritv? ouii you describe to us whet you neon by A. The great majority of the long fiber asbestos 9 tnat was mined would contain foreign substances of various 13 types that tended to be hard to form solid particulates in 11 the asbestos mixture. The Calidria asbestos or the 12 Coalinya asbestos, let m. =av , S a y ' ,,da * deposit that you would 13 say would be almost pure asbestos which contained very very 14 small quantities of materials other than asbestos. 15 C. Do you recall what type of impurities were 16 particularly associated with either Canadian chrysotile 17 asbestos or with chrysotile asbestos- other than that found 13 m the Coalinga deposit? 19 A. No, I am sorry,. I don't know that. 20 0. Doctor, at your previous deposition you went 21 through a number of questions and discussed at length what 22 you recall > points in tine about what was 23 learned with respect to asbestos and what you knew about 24 potential, health conditions arising from exposure to 25 asbestos over your career, is that right? KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES '` " * ~ - d. I ... . chit's .orrzer. to usk you 3oni2 rujstions c c i r . th:- '-'3=ro. ires your earlier deposition or eh..- ,;*.rlio- of :;us -`Position do you recall tolling us :V.t /her. /ou o.-gon with Union Carbide in 1947 you knew, because you :,dJ n / w : --i-al school studies, that -sbrstre -oula cause usotscosis*1 3 A. 'hue's correct. 9 3* ids that distinguished as to-any particular 10 type fiber which oculc. causa asbestosis? 11 A. At that tine : don't believe that they were 12 talking in terns of types of a fiber. They were talking 13 generally asbestos as it was used in insulation activities 14 ana in asbestos dining. 15 C. Doctor, do you recall when-it was you learned lb of an association between asbestos generally and lung 17 canoer? Id .-1/ recollection is it was in the late '60s. 19 Q. Doctor, do you recall or let me esk the 20 question difference. Please explain to us what you mean 21 when you say an association between asbestos and lung 22 cancer and how if at all that nay be different from a 23 causal relationship between asbestos and lung cancer? 24 A. Well, basically when we talk about an 25 association we are talking about a group of people who are KIRHY A. KENMPHV . icervir mo vl"h - c'.r.d who have a certain - physical abnormalities cr . ilu .i a530'111iCTi suggests that this disi_se -- the prasen.:,* of this ^i . - nay oa associated with the exposure at wcr!:. This is ioi.^.vhar different from a proved condition in vhici: it i, demonstrated not only that there is an acscciacicn but you tan eliminate other sources of causation of i disease and you can demonstrate by animal experimentation that the 0 -iscdoc is m fact caused by exposure to the substance. 10 w. Doctor, at the point in time when you remember 11 having learnsa of an association between asbestos and lung 12 cancer, did you at that tine believe that the disease 13 isbestosis would not develop in an individual who was 14 exposed to ^asbestos below the threshold limit value in his X C working lifetime? A. . That is correct. 17 o- At the time you learn-,a of on association 13 b 8 t W M n M b **t0* and * " S c a r did you i,arn f.,at the 19 association was between exposure to asbestos and lung 20 cancer or was it exposure to asbestos in U r g e enough dosjr 21 that would produce asbestosis-5 22 A. -- At-.the time that we first learned about this 23 there was -- it'4 was believed that there had to be a 24 atmospheric concentration sufficient to produce the diseas- 25 asbestosis before you could have any evidence of cancer. '/it KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES / 1^ \ n " 'br;,x x.i ..-at cc ycu rrcix. a^-aeif:curry ir. tr.e l^SOs what tan tarx-shoid lir.it /4s for asbestos exposure? ! `3 5*\*rr "ac question an bains vague. period of time. will ocject to t a : torn oThe 135Cs covers a ll-yrar 3 3Y MR. HAVARD: M?v. iAVARDs I will reword the qutstio:n . 9 0. Doctor, do you recall at any time in the 'oCs 10 what the threshold limit value may have been for asbestos 11 djst exposure? 12 A. Thera .were- several different levels which were 13 c.ctive during tno period from about i960 on up. Initially xi-*r my recollection is that there was a limit of ten fibers in 1 5 excess of tan microns in length per cubic foot of air. 16 .AxS in tne early '60s was reduced to five fibers per cubic 17 foot in excess of ten microns in length. And in the late '60s i. 3 this was again reduced to two fibers per cubic foot in 19 excess of ten microns in length. 20 Q. Doctor, are you certain about any of those 21 numbers? Are you confident in your own mind that those are 22 correct? ----------- . 23 MR. PCLK: I will object to the form of 24 the question as being leading. 25 MR. BRONWSOM: It *3 leading and also KIRBY A. KENNEDY & .ASSOCIATES. o q -)_t oiti?.AdygjMrtw,j 1 V a JJLi. 4 U . POLK : That's cor m that obj<_ccion 4 2Y a A. HARVARD: I will join 5 2. Ans we r the que:sticn if you can, Doctor. 2 you c a n 11, I will m.ova on. 7 A The s j figures are my best recoil action. 3 2. In any event, you do recall that a.t s3.*?.9 3 in tima th ere ware changes in thos a figures? 10 A. Absol utely. 1 X"I Q. Docto r, with raspect to the lang th of fi' 12 that you r<acall be HQ 5133OC iated w ith the thr eshold 1 13 value measurements, how dees the Calidria asbestos fiber 14 length match up with them? 15 A. The Calridia fiber asbestos -- the Calridia 16 fiber length was below the ten microns length of fiber 17 .pacified in the threshold limit value l . Q. Doctor, v/nat if anything did that suggest to 19 you about what the people who set those threshold limit 20 value standards considered about those shorter fiber asbestos? 22 -t4t4r- POLK: Object to the question on the 23 grounds of hearsay and lacks foundation. 24 . MR. BROWNSON: I further object to the 25 question on the ground that Mr. Harvard earlier in his KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES (612) 922-1955 - * -Mi JtW'- 1 j -a- I 2 ; an z :on -exempt 2d to disqualify Or -- : 5 ir. fi'our t / u j ad, -1-- =. a is uaI, i. .:.i; i , -rom answjring this ruescion. i!A V A R S : a ! Answer if you car., A. To us, the fact the :i-.;rcns in length suggested that they were not going to oe particularly active in the reduction cf fibrcgenic -i33usu m e t rho general opinion held at that time -./as 10 -nat t/a active fibers in producing the disease were thos3 i. . ran microns and lower in length. 12 a. Doctor, when you say "to us," to whom were you 13 referring? 14 A* _ To us I am referring, I think, to the majority 15 of physicians in occupational medicine and to the people in 15 the medical department at Union Carbide. 17 *. Doctor, at the time you first learned of an 13 association between asbestos and lung cancer through the 1* medical literature, were you*aware of any demonstrated 20 -auoal relationship between the short fibered Calidria 21 asbestos and lung cancer? 22 A. -- 1 was not- 23 C. Doctor, at the earlier portion of this 24 deposition you told us that in about 1967 you believe there 25 was growing evidence of an association between asbestos and KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES 1 a medical condition C-llr. 33 0th ilior.a. Do ycj .'sciil -> chat custimony? A. Yes. "T w. C=n you recoil -- let ne ask the question 5 aifi. _ntl^. <iw Anio point in tine were you aware cf an'' 6 w i u e n c e demonstrating a cause! relationship between the 7 3hort fiber Culidria asbestos and mesothelioma? 3 A* 1 wa3 not ^^ara of any such relationship, 9 w. I believe you further testified, Doctor, that 13 it was in the early '70s when you began to seek 11 pideniologi cai studies reflecting findings with respect t: 12 mesothelioma. Do you rcc.il that testimony? 13 i-4 2- ^D o you recall whether the studies of which you 15 became aware in'the lets 60s and early '70s primarily 16 dealt with one particular fiber type as opposed to another 17 fiber type? 13 A. The great majority of studies that were done 13 at that time were done with -- -were done on people who were 20 exposed to the long fiber type asbestos which was in common 21 use in the United States. 22 Q. You were aware of no causal relationship 23 established between the short fiber Calidria asbestos and 24 mesothelioma at that point in time, were you? 25 HR. POLK: Object to the form of the IP KIRBY A. KENNEDY S, AS SOOT A T PS Zl 1 . ior. a: being 1:1. B'lO'.r.riDd: I jo in in th i cb j o .i?v HARVARD: I '. / i l l rephra so i t . 4 3V 1.4. R.vRvY.RD: 5 1. 3c-.:tor, in 1367 c.nd in the 1970s whan you 5 began sawing epicraiolo-j iccl studies, were you aware -- 7 MR. UAVARD: I a:.; having trouble cubing 'd this one legal, guys. Give rae a minute. . 9 I'.R. POLK: I understand that. 10 BY MR. HARVARD: 11 C. Doctor, please tell us what your recollection 12 was from the period -of time 1967 to the early 107Cs cs tc i_i whether a causal relationship had been established between 14 short fiber Calidria asbestos and mesothelioma^ 15 A. I knew of no evidence of any type that ch:re 16 had bean any work done with mesothelioma resulting iron 17 exposure to short fiber asbestos. 13 0 . Mere you aware of evidence which had begun to 19 demonstrate a relationship between ether long fiber 2C asbestos and mesothelioma? 21 A. Any relationship that had been demonstrated between nesothciioitia and exposure to asbestos was with long fiber material. Q. Doctor, arc you familiar with the fiber type called crocidolitc? ' . 1/r1/ If m t /IT 1 W T> d w -'ics ite? A. -/oc r a u ly . .'rs ycu ia - l'o t r e a l ly . th e fib s; -VP -1 3 9 10 11 12 13 14 L J 1 / 13 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 -oceor, do you have en opinion, basd or. the `"U U j l literature curing .hat period of ti-" tna early 1970s, as to whether ry asso,.-... . . c4.y ssoLiation rad beer. w a i t * b v ,, oatothelicaa and any e ,u,, . i7s JJ5nt, 3th*r M b " S" * l*` *0U i t th. question' A. In the period o time that you cover the una war would be no. Co you know if in your subsequent studies end your subsequent - let me rephrase the question. Doctor, to you currently have an opinion, based on ,,hat you learned until .ns time you left as associate medical director at '.non ..reit, as to whether anything other than -.stastos causes uasothcliona? A. .here have bean oases of mesothelioma reported in individuals exposed to vinyl chloride. o- Are there also cases of mesothelioma that you have seen in the medical or scientific literature where chare is no .known fMusative agent? ( ``IR* P0LK I will object to the form of the question es being loading and very suggestive. MR. BR0WI30N: I join in that objection. KI^ Y A- KENNEDY "& .ASSOCIATES ---- ^^ 1 ^ A* A Z t 1 put.noiCj'is.s "Vj foot it ,;jo a form of c^aco: of. unknown l-ecicgy of c:curr.r.ci. w Debtor, a.'j you -ware of any apidemioiegicaI diiu establishing _ causal relationship but-.*een the short -^.bor chrysoti 1 such as Calidria and mesothelioma`} A. I have not scon any. Q. caused? Doctor, do we knew exactly how lung cancer is A. Mo, we do not. Q. Do we know today, based on what you .li.v o learned from the medical and scientific literatur now mesothelioma is caused? A. 'do do not know that either. Q* r. the earlier portion of this deposition, Doctor, you were asked soma questions with respect to che X-rays which were taken at King City, California, of then Union Carbide employees. Do you recall being asked questions in that regard? A. -- Yes, I do. Q. Would you explain to us for what purpose chest X-rays were taken of new employees coming to work for Union Carbide at the King city facility where Calidria asbestos ' KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ,,ASSOCIATES " I J **"i j.o ? 2 *'* Union Carbide hud a general policy chit Any J new dB* lo^ c .C.u of the t h i n g s that ,/as cone in his | pre-employment exanin.it icn was a chi si X - n y in ord?r to --wcrnina chat there -..'as no evidence of active lung fieeas- m this prospective employee. Subsequently, these X-rays ./ere repeated to make sure that the work the individual was doing did not produce any evidence of disease. And in the case of the asbestos workers where it was known that exposure to asbestos might result in the development of the 11 disease asb-astosis, it was particularly important that wa 12 rake chese X-rays to make sure that we were net being 12 ouekered into a position where we felt that ther3 was ro 14 r.acara where, as a natter of fact, there might have bean. 15 Q. Doctor, at that point in time when 'Jr.ion 15 Carbide began mining and milling asbestos at the King City 17 facility, did you have an opinion as to whether the short 13 -ibtred nature of the Caiidria asbestos night cause 19 asbestosis? 1 2D A. Based on current -- based on knowledge at that M J*. tine the opinion was that it probably would not do so but 22 that it would be very prudent to keep an open mind and to 2 J take the X-rays and find out whether or not it die or did 24 not. , 25 Q. Did Union Carbide continue to follow those KIRBY A. KENNEDY fc ASSOCIATES 1 :es with shusc X-rayu :1. Yes, th --a\2j Aaay..-** ! < ic>i V o n J. did yc 4 frou ^nion -arbide in 1979 whether or not .my of the 3 employees who ware monitored at the Xing City facility ha-1 o "*eu *our*^ through the monitoring program co have develops- ** i -- ty -sbestos related lung diseases? tf 9-. I do not knew of any such cases. * 9 w. Doctor, you were also asked at the previous 10 deposition or the previous part of this deposition whether 11 or about seme -- let me start this question over. At the 12 previous portion of this reposition you were asked about a 11 study by a Dr. Linger dealing with Calidrie asbestos. Do 14 you recall btiny asked about that? 15 ?**. --v,>-^.*0-t *.r UJ 16 C. Do you recall the point being made that these 17 were or tnat his study was based on samples of Calidria ---J asbestos which he had obtained from Union Carbide? 19 A. I understood that to be the case. 20 Q. Doctor, was it your experience at Union 21 Carbide that you would sometimes get requests from 22 individuals who were interested in pursuing medical or 23 scientific research samples of marketable chemicals to test 24 or to study? , 25 A* Yes, we did receive those requests. KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES / 1 ^ \ AAA A * ' . ZU w. *3 the policy at Union Cr.rbid;-, \ or antat*I. wits r u # ,ct to .ailing .such f` "~qu usc of tail type would coir.u in. 'uulc. ^s k for a p r o t o c o l of the proposed study. And after ' ~V 1 w "-'n t a - Prod u c t o n a g e r s a decision would bo rt-achoc! as to Whether cr aot to grant the request for the 7 substance. a !'. Doctor, are you aware of any requests for 9 narketable ch e m c a l s which cane to your attention which 10 Union Carbide refused to provide the researchers with 11 samples fer quantities of the marketable chemicals they 12 wore requesting? 13 A* I do not recall any. 14 Q- __ Doctor, w-o earlier discussed a study which was 15 accomplished at the vieLlon Institute in Pittsburgh, IS . Pennsylvania, regarding -- let me stop right here. 17 :iR> HARVARD: Have you get your copies"5 18 .1R. POLK: Yes, I do. 19 HP. HARVARD: Off 'the record. 20 (At this time a discussion was held C ff 21 the record.) 22 EY MR. HARVARD: 23 Q. Doctor, I am fixing to show you what I am 24 asking the Court Reporter to mark as Union Carbide' T 23 Corporation Exhibit A, and it is-entitled "Calidria KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES (612) 922-1955 ` Dradu n.0 244, Trachal Insuifl-.clou cf 2.1 2 Lungs with Int irpr atucicn of ?\itholoey 20, '0, go n 1 I 1v-0 ' . .o.i 4. --&.< you, piss, to ta': u loo': .c t.'''-1" 4 ' i-C..:;.::;? 5 ^J-- tais t m u DEP-IM'IL Dposition Euh icit '5 47 ./us marked for identification by the 7 Court Reporter.) U bY MR. HARVARD : * 9 2* Doctor, nava you had an opportunity to lock 10 now at Exhibit 47 to this deposition? i.4i. A. Yes, I hve. 12 Q. And locking at it, what does it appear to be"5 13 A. '.fell, u ' s a report on a study which -was -.ado 14 in whicn Calridiu asbestos fibers were suspended in saline 15 solution and wore introduced into the lungs cf rats at lo vcrious concentrt ions. The condition at various tines, 17 uhe confer.-ration v/as the sane. I take that bee:;. Two 13 concentrations 1 nl and 1 nil amounts into the lungs throueh 19 the trachea. ` 20 Q. Doctor, what was one of the purposes or what 21 were the purposes of this study, if yOU oan recall'5 2 2 idR. POLK; I will object to the form of 23 the question as being compound. 24 MR. HARVARD: Sure. i will rephrase the 25 question. . KIRBY A. KENNEDY fit ASSOCIATES 2 j 4 5 5 7 3 9 10 11 12 i 3 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 2-8 3* .-in. .'lAV.UD: Docor, jo you recall what the purccics cnis study vc.'i? A. The purpose was to find out the type ani the --<3*-= c. arfacts of tha asbestos on the lungs of rats. D. Doctor, does this appear to be a copy of a study which -..-as commissioned by Union Carbide Corporation at the Mellon Institute? * A. Yes, it would be. ` Q * IiaVing reviewed that document at my request, do you recognize it? A. It is one I have seen before. Q. Doctor, with respect to your prior testimony at the last^ deposition or the first part of this deposition you were asked whether a ~ let me get a July 1255 report from the Mellon Institute which is the only study which Union Carbide had sponsored and had conducted at the Mellon Institute. As you review this document, which has been narked as Exhibit 47 to this deposition, do you now recall this study also having been conducted at the Mellon Institute at Union Carbide's request? A. Yes, I do. MR. POLK: Objected to as leading. I will move to have the answer striken. MR. BROWNSON: Same objection. KIR3Y A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES (612) 922-lO^S*. T< tuuy . -- ou . . c a n w,-.c :-iqu23tc th- t'a rarlaotusd us -X 11::; a 7 -i "r`r* *~ cha* * -'tquas tad dy co not <r.c,v who raqu * *"` * you recall whathcr or nc. tunc `/us Jnion Carbide cc be accoaplishud? t *nc-.:. u study A. c would have co be fron Union Carbide. si Doctor, let ne taphrasa the quastion. Doctor 9 did ai cher this study or th c 1965 stud y, which you ravi awed 10 in y our prior ...position, a.* ! with. ,, ,, udy ^ 11 ,U**tlOB f ''h5th,ir Cdnc8r r o t h l U o n s tuners develop i 2 i:i thesa an iavis? . 13 A. .-aither study .os involved in that, 14 w. ^ Doctor, with respect to Exhibit Nurber 47, 15 have you hud an opportunity to review that exhibit- 16 A. Yus, I have. ' 17 3 And did you and I1 rreevv-x;--v,,, ,itpr.ior to your 18 deposition today? 19 a . We looked it it this r.orning. 20 Q. With respect to e n y conclusion, which were 21 r" eh*d in t W S StUjy' -*" t did they t e n you as t 22 Unionjlarbide asdics! personnel about the relationship 23 between t h reshold U n i t value a n d the C a l r i d i a asbestos, if 24 anything? c 25 A- In essence the results of the study which KIR3Y A. KENNEDY ASSOCIATES* 7 3 9 10 1 12 13 ) 14 15 15 17 13 19 20 21 22 23 24 } ' - 25 lung ^velopauiit o i fibrotic nodules ,;:tn;n t h 2 i. am gocz ;:ig my sentence confused. Any-'sy, t''" Jo -tudy suggested t'.i-t it was -- that the n_tarie: ~ouli P-Ou u c e riorctic tubers in the lung and, therefers, itm j important, that the dust concentrations in the air be ;*20t "fc " low 1-VttA slow tna threshold or at or below the rnrushoid U n i t value. w. ^octcr, init va-.ua a couple we have mentioned that torn threshold of tines today as well as in the previous deposition. Without respect to whatever dose level there -was in a threshold limit value, could you explain tc us generally what a threshold limit value is or was ? A. ^ The threshold limit value is a concentration of a substance 'established by -- it was.a concentration of a susscance in air to which an individual could be exposed eight hours a day, five days a week for a /orbing lifetime without significant harm and this concentration was established by a group known as the American Conference of governmental IncLustricil Hygienists Q. Doctor, at some point in time certain of the Calidria asbestos products were marketed in a palletized form, is that correct? . A. I believe so. , Q. Do you know who made the decision to market . KIRBY A. K E N N E D Y i<,A S S O C I A T E S ~ ~ ' ~ ' (612) 922-1955 : *+^*1. of -- C i l n d i i prouuu -3 in a itizv? 1 PrI3lJIT:S c*;2 C "1 ''Ji-i !-.r'< :zing p.?ocle, U' ^ y - TiC.lll if you :--t diciiion? - i.V.'OlVI 1 ;t oil *v* - -ot involved in it. 7 . 8' 0 10 11 12 13 14 i 5 Do jyou r^ca1! * a...-..2, ,, purposes wire or di " yU ,V<*-` i4" 'n '*h"t t h - .OSes vi-jra in p.iistiting Cjiriiia a.b.sto. cr a c t i n g it in a ?0>l.t .t o us ' opposed to a raw fiber forui' ' y,R* PCLK: to the form Of the ,U`" i n' B U 1 - T:iJra iS P t . to that R a t i o n , therefore, i f . p o u n d and I object and you to rephrase it. Also lacks foundation. .. BY MR. HARVARD: M R * RIVARD: 9e happy to. 1o w. Doctor, did you h?vt _ , . - a pe* son il knowledge as 17 to u n y Calridia asbestos was ina'-ketad in ,, . *> JW. retea m a pallatized for: 1G if it vtus? 19 A. It was marketed in a c , 3 pt.ii.3ti2 id form for the 20 purpose of reducing dusting. 21 0. Would you explain to to us briefly ,,hat you 22 mean by the problem of dusting? 2j A. Well, when you take e loose fibrous material 24 ln 1" 'S SJy * shiP ? in3 b *3. in the event of bag breakage 23 or when the material -- when the- bag was opened for use, KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES f / * t _ . .. s * .iambus of blue flb-r s - j.0033 fibers fro.-. naterial could readily ,leap, ,Q ;hj }>L 1 0n~S \ la 5" " t*s U 1 Hetissd then the m o u : ..c.:...fr.o..'? r a p . was sharply reduced end, therefore, the probability of savers destine was markedly raiucsu, / w Doctor, did pelletizing absolutely remove eny 3 possibility of dust being generated by the use of ` 9 pelletized Calridia asbestos? 10 *' It did not remove it. it just reduced the probability that hig3h vc.ojniucfernnr.tliu-l.vi-oilla- oof-p d^ust would be 12 formed. C. Doctor, I would now like to show you a 14 document which .- I will *asSKk t-Wn r.-,,-,. o ta- Court Reporter to nark as 15 exhibit Humber 43 to this deposition. At the top or the 16 document, it's a two page document, at the top it states 17 v-alidria Asbestos" and th^n , it , iwn tirP-fd m all caps underneath Id it underlined it states h sh^ tf n- , - . aso^stoa xoxxcology Report." On 19 Page 2 of that document in the low--- LO-a. left-hand side appears 20 tos d s t s 5 *"S " o 3 b T c fca f a ^ . S "ate tna- only for purposes of 2221 identification. Would you oleas* ^ ' ^ 1 Ak-dS^ >-ake a look at the document? (At this tine D E M E H L Deposition Exhibit 24 43 was narked for identification by the 25 Court Reporter.) '  i 1 P V 0 . - 4.CCU. 0nt . c 2 to D id you im: : review ch~ two 3ig. coca;- Jn: j i-'ifor o th3 ccn u 4 doctor? of your 2-position this --, 5 V VrJ,f < uid . 3 ,*\ Do you .lavj on let 14 ask the Question 7 or ffer e.ncly. 11.*4U "* driiOn Corbies '/ss raspor.sibis fc~ d i e t i n g toxicology reports on tha narkecabl > ..v.-i-, distributed by Union Carbide? ' 10 A. 3.ic4lly I prepared the 3reat aejrrity c f them. Soaatiaes Or. l>-v --a- , , , n " `da involved, this wos one ir. 12 WhiCh he was nor- active than I was 13 t 14 C^ a *i ^ 2r ` L-r-i acre active then ycu in the of toxicology rsuart1- j .._. . br tcfOits oeaimg with th "a1ri4 a 15 asbestos? 13 A ` " th* 17 yes, he was. 0t this Je"ant, which 1959, i o 8 '' 30 y U r*elli *-i* ^ b e e t e s Toxicology 13 -leport, c h a f e been forked as Exhibit <S , t, on, that w ,, 20 drafted personally by you or whether it was d r a f t s 21 personally by Dr. Lane, if you know? 22 I believa it was ir >fo^ ,, s ara-tea personally by Dr. 23 L"ne with consultation on ny part. 24 b 25 3 ` WUld yU CXplain to us for what purposes the -sbestos toxicology reports were prepared? KIR** A. KENNEDY ASSOCIATES'  t l.r.y we;u prepared for trunsr.ijjior. :o customers or to users of dalridia asbestos to advise the.- U5 w 330 n* You st i3 associated with the use" A Righ. t. 6 u Doctor, 7 t^Aiww-o-jy reports, did you and Dr. Lane report only then a b fincin-,0 which you had observed iR the medical and * a scientific literature which established causal 10 relationships between asbestos and disease processes or did ii you include other information; for example; associations 12 which had o>_en noted in the literature? 13 A. We included the known and proved types of 14 adverse reactions to th > ____ -- -`it.r.ii ana m some instances we 13 indicated that th^r2 w&*-p -r.- , . . . `e 30-- sJ33ssrea associations not 1 o yet proved which were worthy of consideration. 17 e. I would like to drew your attention to the 13 paragraph at the bottom of Page i Q f Exhibit 43 and ask you la to look at it, Doctor. ' 2 0 A. Yes. 21 C. Does that reflect information of the type that 22 Union Carbide knew it says asbestos toxicology reports would provide to customers-5 24 A. Yes, it does. 25 Q* Doctor, why would asbestos toxicology reports 3M KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES ^fi 1 ^ Q09- ; q'k k 'r" " 3^ -- p.D.'idaJ -O the mar!;; ting partner..*; c. 2 ,2 JGnh^ j. at .*1**C.* wa. 1w r C rUG ra110X? J .1? T **''A*|. -:.i 3us: going t o net _ -.- "/T j w^or. r.WiTo on -l.'.o .c go oounoutioni Go aha \d , Doitcr. i.~. w'.A.'97-.i: Rune objection. o -' 7AA 2; I would bo haspy to ?a-.' 7 the foundation. a 3Y ilR. HARVARD: 9 0. . * Doctor, do you recall at the. first portion of 10 whis depos.tior. wnen you wore ashed about purposes for il preparation of the \sbsoca lexicology Report to which you 12 responded one of tne purposes was to provide it to i: ting people who rjqu. rod it? Do you reca 11 having 14 that statement? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. Who either rc quir id. cr requested it? 17 A. The marketing department. 1 3 ** * IThy would the toxicology reports be provid 19 to such marketing people? ` 20 A. The marketing people used them in their 21 dealings with the potential customers for the product. I 4 . 4 Q. Was it your experience at Union Carbide that 2 j when you prepared toxicology reports for different 24 GurK-tabie chemicals that one of the primary distribution 25 systems for those toxicology reports was through the KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES (612) 922-1955- '-`-"-Tv 1 -riveting ir.-.c-1"1 . ^ r a c i n g uepart:n,2nt w;.s involved. : net jji*j th-it t*' -v . - -y , ule primary source cf ii iwtibut icr.. --= frequently she ,,ark.-ting department cr the soles o z .nrz<-tion .vould sdvise cl- rustoner that such report: 7 . 8 9 10 11 ^i4-m> le 14 15 15 17 O 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 aV-iiubl- and cur department to forward i copy to the proposed customer or ro the customer himself. Doctor, did you or paopie in the.nodical department of Union Carbide ever receive direct requests for toxicology reports on marketable chemicals'. A * ^ s , we did. `tC:r` ,K iu t .30urces did you receive such requests, what type, oi people or organization,? ` A. ^ Wail, we would receive requests from customers fror. governmental agencies, from universities, from individuals V/hO fwlt ^--*4 - i r i_ - t-n-j *.ad a need for such information. u. ,'fi.sn you received such a request would you provide the person requesting it with those reports, if such a reported been developed? A. Yes, we would. C Are you -- ^ As-- er of fact, if such a report, had not been developed we would frequently go ahead and develop one i*i response: to the requsst* o. Are you aware of Union Carbide or -- Doctor, 1 1 KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES V'v ** c*rc uu awar e if Union Jorbi. yi i anyone w r;h - -C Xi COlogy ;.ur>rt J ch jn;c j 1s on .'.]u i S t "5 T A. `o, I an not ^ TC 4"n Dc you ramenher *s*fr afc V r..urk;ruble c1. uni cals, wr.ich f'.-11 7 iUCn -oxicciogy reports proper-.1 on then? 8 k' I * --ily can't I'iairojr the exact number but I 9 '-now the last tine I counted it was 500. 10 C* If 1 =3n hav~ a -.inute to look through my r.otes for a second. 12 Doctor, let me now snow you what I will ask i j ^ Court ^ p o r t e r now to narh os 3 t f ,, d t n f s - h i t i t u?< i 'nioh is u p p e r s to be a photoropy of a docunant whith 15 " tSa "ion carbida Ir.t4rna2. Corresponds:^, _o ;4*r'h :i' l r ! - Subi*':t> T *icity of Calidria Ubostca", 17 iad biJi3 tyy0d' na of "c - Oetnahl. M.D., u t 9 e u t . 16 iedioal Direotor", and has aon. writing above that 19 signature U n a . Do you have the Joountnt before you non 20 A. Yes, 1 do. 21 H.ve you had an opportunity to review that 22 document? __________ 23 A. Yes, I have. ( 25 (At this tine DERNEHL Deposition Exhibr 49 was narked for identification by the KIR3Y A. KENNEDY & .^SSOQIAXES Q'>-_ioee _er: i. Court Reports.) 3Y ::r . h a r v a r d ; - ^3 thut u :oou:,i in i that ycu ,-.n=2 Ii. "2Vi 3w.;i pr *or to your deposition here today'5 *"1* Yus, e die. C. Doctor, is the signature, which -ppa.urs ova: the typed oi.nuturu line for C. U. Dernehl a signature hieh is familiar to ycu? 9 a* It's ;ay signature. 10 C. Do you recall having written this letter'5 11 hR. POLK: Let me interrupt, if i nav. 12 This is Mika Polk. 1J AR. HARVARD: I know the voice, Mika. 14 - M R * pol;<;5 I Know you don't want to V.a: 13 th6 VOi ='-' but 1 appreciate th s fact that you know it. *!y 16 copy that I have does not bear a signature, Bill. 17 iiR. J01103: The copy that I have here ia does not 'bear tha signature. 19 ilR. POLK:* I find that somewhat 20 interesting. ;iaybe you could cover that with the Doctor. 21 ...v. HARVARD: I will. I suspect I know 22 the answer j have a copy here that also 23 doesn't have a signature and one that does. 24 BY MR. HARVARD: 25 Q. Doctor, do you recognize that document? 33 KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES. f ft1 \ -- '`V; 1 -:t' -'O you r ntar h:vir. ^ ric; an t t 1 .11 =r^ I an afraid 1 don't **c*.t.onw ^ *.*inj *.a, r.o. .uvr: you r; viewed tlhi inform ation which is that letter or aar.t internal corr-cspcndonc j 1 'i. Yes, I hive. "* Doas that rail act what inf orn.at ion vns u -vailoble to you and is it -- lit ae ash the question 10 aif i erently. Doctor, does this memoranda reflect some o f th* ittitud5S which you understood and held with respect t: 12 coxieity c Calridia asbestos during this period of tine, -n- period of time referring to '.larch 21, 137CP 14 , -1R. POLKj cbj:-"t: to t'ne ^utstion at 15 iaci.ng foundation* It calls for speculation, m i also it 16 c-^lis -Or nearsay. 4. / MR. BRC'.TNDON: I join in that. 13 3Y MR. HARVARD: 13 Q. Have you had aa opportunity to read through 2C the letter, Doctor? 2 i A. Yes, I have. 22 J. -- acs_thi.i letter or internal corresponder.ee 23 reflect attitudes which you held at that period of tine? 24 A. Yes, it does. 25 MR. POLK: May I make something clear on KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES O M . i o c , , jflflMMt ' co;*i? I '..cuic Lik . te Ci C*L\ c Wj Oepcs itien *'vv unsigned or signed copy? c -- Si -.0 z z y tu 1 i*V HARVARD : . will tell you v'hit. 5 will cut ok and sic if we ha-re a fix hare and if we Jo L i ..ill fix you .-.-hit I a;:. looking at here, the signed ropy 7 JwwddbC ,, O A*J-1 x want att ached. MR. LAURA: Mike, I didn't get your 9 number down lust time. ID 11 12 13 14 512-336-3021. MR. POLK: 612-437-2732. MR. LAURA: Was that 2732'5 MR. POLK: Correct. MR. JOWLS: Anthony, nine i, i 5 ` MR. LAURA: Why don't- we take a five 16 minute break while I get this faxed? 17 MR. POLK: That's not necessary as far 13 as I am concerned at the moment. I appreciate if i get a 19 copy. Let me tell everybody- on the line what my problem is 20 and get an idea from Bill how long he is going to be. 2 i First of all, Dill, can you give me a general idea of how 22 long you are-going to take? 2 J MR. HARVARD: Approximately two more 24 minutes. 25 MR. POLK: May I have the party's KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES i612 ) 922-l45S - 3 .``.jw.on '-`7 short cross ch.it won 12 ! h:f:- iO0? *-- I an I3kmr is ber-euse we .iv: conforcr.Ci call with chr Court or. the deniistc rn,, in ;iir.nuso-:_. Jour c? .13. DROKNSOJ: v-onferenee cell with who* .13. POLK: Corse again? . 3 9 10 11 . M3. 330".'.1IS3'T.: What Court-J M3. POLK: Judge Littnan. MR. BROWNSON: That's news to. 313. --R. .LAR/ARD: I don't care. 12 MR. PCwiK: It deals with some issue tha' 13 I have w 1cn Union Carbide regarding document production or. 14 ^ ~ w Id W 'ww i 15 13 . n * "/* 13 has to be secret? il3. ER.0.7L 30,..: 3o does that mean that Dob MR. POLK: Yes, that's what ic n- O f 19 M3. POLK:. Has anyona got any problem, 20 with that procedure? 21 MR. SR0I71TS0W: I just want the record t: 22 reflect that_i.f there is conference calls with Judge 23 Litcffiun we have never been given notice of them. 24 MR. POLK: It's duly noted. 25 MR. HARVARD; Why don't I go ahead and KIRBY A. KENNEDY i ASSOCIATES ay other two -r.1r.ut03 wort'.', cf -u -estiens an * r. ,'n wan r.'.ova on. f .i.X. ?0LK: "'hank you. OY HU. HARVARD: - Coe to.*, you and I act for uppro.iir.utcly an 6 nour and a half befora the deposition continuation this 7 afternoon, is that correct' 8 A. That's correct. 2* -hen ,, be.ieve you had lunch with ny friend 10 hare, Mr. Laura? 11 i 12 2. During OUf nestings we discussed the natter: 12 w m c h you and 1 have discussed on the record hern today, 14 that right? 15 A. That's right. < ..ith _aspect to wna-t -- let mo ask it 17 differently. Doctor, at the tine you left Union Carbide i: x a 1979 did you have an opinion as to whether a causal 19 relationship had teen established between short fiber 2u Calridia asbestos and mesothelioma? 21 A. I know of no such association. Q. Doctor.__ot the time you left Union Carbide 23 Corporation i n ^1979 did you have an opinion as to any - 1 24 will rephrase the question. Doctor, at the time you left C 25 Union Carbide Corporation in 1979 did you have an opinion ) KI3BY A. KENNEDY & .ASSOCIATES (612) 922-1955 3r'-:3 *, `3 tc -:iy ---- x I reicAi c n s h i p be f-e or. short fib. asbestos and lung c.;n:.r7 j ! , ? o-'-r *. - - | tne way. I -- .~.o 2-/ j ..c, I n,,u no 2 hac no opinion on -- no I opinion in i i s - chut : sv:.rj. J Lr-.z no ZjO back io my previous question b;o.iuoo I an obji-ccion to ba posed perhaps inter on. p i .j,-, nns-/jr this question yes or no, if you can, Doctor. Doctor 10 at the tine you left Union Carbide Corporation in 1379 did 11 you have an opinion as to whether a causal relationship had 12 been established between short cibered Calridia asbestos Til3sc z r.eliorna7 Just did you have an opinion? 14 A. Yes, I nad an opinion. 1 5 w And w..at v/as that opinion, Doctor? 15 A. That there was no known association. x 7 Q Was it axso your opinion that no cau sal lo relationship had been established7 13 i-13. P0LK.\ I will object to the fora of 20 that question as being leading and overly suggestive. 21 3Y I1R. HARVARD: 22 -- Let no ask the question the long way again 23 then, Doctor. Doctor, at the time you left Union Carbide 24 in 1373 did you have an opinion as to whether a causal 25 relationship had been established between short fiber KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES acc./A A. u..rysc:ilc o r , jxcuua ms, short fiber -*- - - ~ ti'.i dia rase or -"ss known as nuscthulio-.u7 noted. ?0La : Dane objaction us z z ^"'/'lOUS 1 xii .1a . .icvRVa PvO : 0. Dia you have surh on opinion, Dorror7 7 A. Yes, I did. a C. '.Tnat was your opinion? 9 A. I knew of no such association. 10 G. Doccor, at the tine you retired from Onion 11 ^--bi^a torpor-xzion m 1979 where were you working 12 s i c ci1 ? _ a l.'iv/ York, 14 0. ./ere thr files which you maintained in your L3 v e n o u s aspects as associate medical director there with you in :jw York? . 17 A Yes, they were. 13 . Vidaen you left that employment in 1979 do you 19 have any personal knowledge s to where the files which you 20 had maintained were sent' 21 A. My information was that they ware boxsd and 22 sent down t&--We st Char-leston, West Virginia. 23 24 witness. MR. HARVARD: Thank you, Doctor. Next 25 MR. POLK: Thank you, Bill. M KIRBY A.f ^ Kf E^ NyNEr^>D^Y~ & A-SSfOC\IitAtmTrEjrSJ' q5 r < : jY ,3^r J- Lector, this is hike ?oik : - M n tz zr`~ R M i n t i f f . Mow ..re- you"5 .Ml right. 0. GooJ. Doctor, firs: of oil, did you have -ir. opportunity to have any comnuni cot ions with any of the 9 -ttorneys for Union Carbide other than having lunch with 10 hr. Laura and your hour and a half conference with Mr. 11 2arvaru? 12 A. ho, I did not. <r 13 HARVARD: Let me just say for th 1 *4 record, the Doctor nay have forgotten I did telephone hir. to set up the cine and the place for my. meeting with him 1 0 before his lunch with Mr. Laura. 17 3Y MR. POLK: 13 0. Doctor, curing your conversations with your 19 attorney, Mr. Harvard, and I-understand tint that was this 20 morning, is that correct? 21 A. Thar's correct. 22 Q ' -- In your conversations with him did you discus 23 matters with him that he did not ask you about on direct 2 4 examination today? V 25 A. Mo, we did not. KIR3Y A. KENNEDY 6 ASSOCIATES i 1. Doctor, ai yoj believe, sir, that there is .r. 2 association between cigarette smoking and lung cunctr'' j r a is. - 1. And do you ballava, sir, that there is m 5 esc ubi isn-.d causa anu affect relationship between cignrc.tr 2 8 sito';;ng and lung rancar? "t7 Will you repeat that again? It sounds like V the sane question to te, 9 Q. Do you believe that it is medically 10 established, scientifically established that there is a 11 ceu3= and effect relationship between cigarette smoking and 12 lung cancer? A. Yes. 14 2. Do you smoke? 15 A. No. 16 Q. Have you smoked0 17 A. Yes. l 19 ' Q. :.rhen did you cease smoking0 19 A. About 1979. - 20 Q. 1979? 4. -- A. 1979. 22 Q. -- About the time that you left as being the 23 medical director for Union Cirbide, is that right? 24 A. That's right. 25 Q- Thank you. Now, Doctor, I have in front of me * KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES i^r _ ucc ime.-.t :hat I an not cure i you have c n e t . i-n P9LK: ' think it was referred to i: w itur 1----1: of c.iis deposition and, Dill, do you '..uvc CilV hare, the prior deposition exhibits'7 -CJ. O.:, - tZXZZ hi. HARVARD: I never got a copy of th:: - huva a number cf exhibits here before -.a, ``ih?. to coma prepared. .rmch document is it to which you ::il;a ref er .ncc? 9 ;;il. POLX: Just a second,. I wi. 10 It would be Deposition Exhibit 22. 12 to n- I'-X. MAhYARD: Can you just describe it POLK: Certainly. It's January 12 14 19j 5 memorandum, subject "Asbestos Toxicology Deport", i. J it s a memorandum written by Thomas doll. 16 .IR. liARVARD: Held on a second. 17 HR. HARv/ARD: January 12 ? 13 MR. POLK: Correct. 19 MR. HAR/ARD: Two pugs document? i 22 EY MR. POLKs- MR. POLK: Correct. MR. HARVARD: I have it here. 23 Q. Dr. Dernahl, could you take a lock at that-7 I 24 believe you looked at it earlier but please take a look at 23 that for a moment. KIRBY A. KENHEDY & ASSOCIATES (612) 922-1955 Just th: letter '"j ' 'r_> MR. POLK: \t tni3 tir.e, that's :crr:ct. *?.. [ARVARD: Just th : first two o^- s , Doctor. i aa rolling him that, Mike, because cy copy is ad to Vi* Z A. i. *1(j w Dec tor, Urn I have Q. n o LJ nOJ tins or the date that appears on that letter that Union o-rruac recognized an association between asbestos and lung cancer? -*. Wexl, -3t ma road here again for a .c.ir.ute and see what it says about cancer. 'Jell, the letter m effect tai,%s about reports of cancer producing and effects and then states objections to those reports. Q. x understand that, Doctor, but I want you to answer cry question. A. And your question again was? Ci. Certainly. I will rephrase it for you and repeat it. Doctor, would you agree that that report indicates that Union Carbide, as of the date which appears on the raport, recognized an association between lung cancer and exposure to asbestos? . A. No, I don't think so. I think what the thing KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES (612) 922-1955: is ci.c.; chsre -a: people who Lave sai i that :k t c 3 3uon an ussociation. Me 112 nat nccessar ily egrc- ?. 2* 3o i.'j your tee 1Maon/ than that in pita of tV.it report, in your uinu Union Carbide did not r icognit 3 5 -'n .ssoci arior. becwj.n .sbcscos and cancer at that tine, is C i n : correct"7 nt A. `.'hit's correct. 3 MR. LAURA: I hive an objection tc that. 9 - just object to the lorn of that question. 10 3Y MR. POLK: 11 C1. Row, Doctor, would you agree with no that ns 12 of the tine of chat' report that it was recognized within i; the report chat asbestos is was not a condition preoed-nt tc 14 the production of lung cancar? 1 5 j*.o** the question. MR. HARVARD: I object to the form of .7 MR. POLK: Fine. 13 MR. LAURA: I think there is confusion, 19 Mike. Are you talking about the asbestos toxicology report 20 now or the letter? ' 21 MR. POLK: Talking about the letter. Mr 22 hasn't read the asbestos toxicology report yet. 2 2 MR. LAURA: You said report. 24 . MR. POL": Well, its entitled ",\sb'stos 25 Toxicology Report" in the covering letter. I am basing ny KIRBY A. KENNEDY U ASSOCIATES ' * 1 * r* e fJ* ;i .now to the Doctor solely upon his r ? v i . o f the 2 two pages of Ur. Ha l l 's letter dated January 12, 1063. i tx' - 't s>.o tii.'.f t.nis letter h ;s anything to 4 do ./ion whether or net asbastosis -- the disease asbestoses 5 and *ung canoer are concomitant. 6 Q. 5o your answer to my question would be r.o~ 7 !R. HARVARD: Object. I would request 8 that you poso the question again. 9 HR. POLK: Okay. 10 BY MR. POLK: 11 Q. Doctor, the exhibit, Deposition Zxh.bit 32 12 that you havs now reviewed, would you agree with me that 1 J that has information contained within it that -would A* O. *T indicate that the disease of asbastosis is not a condition 15 precedent to the development of lung cancer'' 16 A. I do not see that this letter 3uys anything of 17 the- kind. 13 -J. And it's your testimony that as of 1365 you 19 had no indication from any source that asbestos could esus : 20 cancer, is that correct? 21 A. V'e did not know of any such information that - 22 we did not know of any such information. 23 Q. Do is the answer to my question correct, or is 24 what I said correct? I will repeat it again, if you wish. 25 MR. HARVARD: Would you repeat it, KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES g y o _i q<;s '.*. 1*t 5 "( 2 . 4 4 O.o...ia .i'.cw hat yon ere H i k i n g bout. J w Ju ay. Jo-to., ij m. c ~ o c z i<sz - l - a 3 ci T Jenu..ry 12, 155"9 UXTcu ntd no indication from m y sour a.- 5 wnetscever t.'.at ^i/"4ictted to you that there /as m o -osculation cue .v-.ee tsb =s tos and lung oanc.r-5 7 .-1.1. HARVARD: Object tc the for- -.r. : ' 3 -Iso object cn the use of vagus ttras, 9 BY MR. POLa : 10 2. Doctor, is there anything about that question li that I ;ust asked you that you don't understand'5 12 L. R :p aat it again, please, so I ran clarify that 13 unsv/er. 14 2. Would you agree with me that as of January 12 15 of 1955, you had no indication from any source that there 16 was an association between asbestos and lung cancer-5 17 MR. HARVARD: Same objection. 1 o A. y.y answer to that would be wo hid no 19 indications at that time of any association in 1955. 20 Q. And sc to answer my specific question, you hac 21 no indication from any source that there was an association C0 L-twaen asbestos and lung cancer, is that correct"5 23 MR. HARVARD: Same objection. Asked and 2 4 answered as well. 25 MR. POLK: No, it was not. KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES s <v *J" ` i-AGVA^D; That's y/ cb]v:i:cn, 52- '. ` 2 . POL.<: Ok_v. ! 3. Can you answer 7 *'' d.ARVARD: 1' think h: is thinking ^h- over. D o c t o r ,3 soon os you ore ready if you eon `" a'/3` the R a t i o n , ploass answer. Ho is looking hack ovsr the letter again now. ` 9 i!R. POLK: Okay. 10 11, my answer still is to the effect that wo >-0 not believe that there was any reliable data which 12 suggested that there was an association between smoking o; 3 between asbestos exposure and cancer. 14 " * T>-sn^I will rephrase the question. bettor, 03 15 of J u TM i:: Y + 2 >.13-55,.. did you have any indication, reliable 1G t l . .not there was an association 17 Pc!t^'eon asbestos and_lung, center? 1G A * r nere Wd3 i 9 x IfTM.it. ' fc1on of that type around, but 20 Q* I understand what you are saying, sir. 'Could you agree with me that che information which you did not 22 agree with, making an association or suggesting an 23 association between asbestos and lung cancer, came to your 24 attention prior to I960? > 25 MR. PIARVARD: Object. KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES . t 1 > \ fn-l.,! (\cg * rrV- *_.. 53 I 5c;: y , i did-.' r .>;r you r ;,ivi:-. .ly -.'.o;kr was no, it i.id no: cons to ou: a.cention. -J.! O information apparently uauu to you: . .itoicn c >j z o s ^ J&nuary_ 12, 1905,. which you lid .net :~r?3 ;/1t'r. tha t ino ic it_-l t association batweon ashes;os tr.d iun^ oinc'j:, is th_t much true? 9 10 qu :st lor. h h . I-IARVA.3.D: Do you understand the of hut inf or not ion night !nve cor.a acroso ;r.y d,,sk. V.7e aid not agree with it for various rcusons 2. 1 unc:erstand that. You have male that very 15 clear, Doctor. That'a not L.y question. I will follow i . 1 c 4. >W up again -with . different question, however, the notorial 17 tnat you are referring to that nay have crossed your dot': T 4. O tnat you did not agree with, when was the first tine tint 19 that kind of material suggesting an association between 2D asbestos and lung cancer first crosstd your desk*7 21 h, I have absolutely no v;ay of knowing .what the' 22 time wasj 2 j Q. Sut you have earlier testified that it 24 definitely was not before i960, is that correct"7 25 A. I would say that is absolutely correct. KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCI"ATrEe.S t .knl l r031 ^ j.~ r u 7 3 your desk at some.tine between 1900 -r.d January 12, 'or,"-' | i ! ilaei:i3n. HARVARD: Object to th> fern of the You nay issuae what you wish. Answer it if yc -^occoir* 6 *' Jn - l e x i c a l .basis you__would h.w- to assur.j 7 ""~`w -**st is a correct statement. d< W. T.^nk you. Doctor, who re are you right no;/' 9 A. Where an I? Springfield, Missouri. 10 Q* I understand. Are you in a law of iore there 11 for W. R. Grace, is that corract? 12 A. I dor. Vt know who it's for. It's law office. 13 r. rind presently with you are Union Carbide X**aT -v.wOt nays ill harvard and Tony Laura, is that-- --~i'rD.'.*''----> 15 A. Right. 1 3 MR. 31 SHOP: Gary Bishop for r . Grace 17 oust so the record is clear, we are not at ny offices. We 18 o.e in m e offices of a third-party law fira that is just 19 providing these facilities so that we could take this 20 deposition. 21 22 BY MR. POLK: MR. POLK: Thank you. 23 . Doctor, I have a few other questions., You 24 earlier testified that the sole purpose of pelletizing ... ' `'' ' ' ' Calridia asbestos was to, "reduce the problem of dusting." KIRBY A. KEtiiiEDY & ASSOCIATES 6^ i T/ 6 / 8 y 10 ii 12 i: 14 15 16 ^ "/ 13 1 -J 20 21 22 23 24 25 a. ^ ~1i * it's obvious thu: the ..nter i..1 which i c- a peli aizau ;or ,ivs luss _bi1itv to release 13rg i 'iU-r.iiiies ^ * k->ist. tnan doe3 lco33 ness of floors. jcnowlodge that the soli purpose of pelletizing the C.iirid asbestos was to reduce the problem of dusting, wh era did you obtain that inform;. tion fron? A. I iiarnod tr.at on my plant visits w on your plant visits to King City , C :11;o r ;= . A. .Tight. rw\ And the first plant visit' that yo u made to K i n City, C i i i o m i *,/&3 wnsn.*^ A. That's hard to recall. in the early '60s. Sometime ; would say c. In 1962 or '53 perhaps"' ' A. I an sorry, I can't give you that close a date Q. VJho told you that the palletizing of Calridia asbestos or the sola purpose of pelletizing that product wa3 to reduc e the dusting problem7 A. I have no idea who told ina that. conducted me on the plant tour. 3crr.ebody who KIR3Y A. KENNEDY & ,,ASSOCIATES 6 1 0. Doctor, is it your under str.niin- -q-- ^c. 2 pallatizing or the Calricia .abastos wts dor.-- iron tha inception of che King City mill' 4 A. 1 can't answ -r that for sure 3 - i. J v it VZl3 Th j.* h'33 ataread, I btli S y-uirs eftjr the null Z*S in operation. 7 w .in;it etc;, you would agree 3 you net, that non-pellstized Calridia aabastes fiber /as 3 sold by Union Carbide' 10 A. At ona time, yas. 11 Q. And, Doctor, do you have any information 12 within your personal, knowledge that would indiers when 13 Union Carbide ceusad sailing open fiber Calridii asbestos' 14 A. I have no way of knowing. 15 Q. 3o you don't hnow if Union Carbid.- sold open 1G Calridia asbestos fiber to the Conwsd plant ir. Cloquet, 17 Minnesota, as late as 1974? 13 A. I frankly don't know that they evr sold any 1 3 to Conwud. '* . 20 Mil. HARVARD: I am 3orry, it was Conwsd' 21 THD '.'IT17CS5: Conwsd, excuse me. 22 3Y MR. POLK: 20 Q. Doctor, would your opinions with reference to 24 tha hazards of asbestos be any different if you ware to 25 assume that asbestos being sold to Conwed was sold in a KIRBY A. KENNEDY fc..ASSOCIATES q ? -1955 5n ; -F^i fib.-: fern-' ay it would bj .acre bn-. r-hci p :-a 1eciaai rut- ;ia1 JL*s __Stud 1C3 , La-.4ny, di 2^lb.Ion hoc vlodge, on Union Carbide onstra ted 'I'l. t.ii> --Uiting loss chan open fiber? 3 * "* 1 . i`uV"3 110 P^-sonal knowledge of any * studies y tiidc e11y ulue^i * Q. Doctor, do you have any personal knowledge 11 whatsoever that -would allow you to testify as to whet 11 not t n j salesperson dealing w ith the Conwed pi ant in wlogutz, .'inn 2sot a between 1262 and i?74 ever receive 14 Saw w.ny or your toxicology roper ts or your off ice's 15 toxicology reports on asbestos? -L 0 .1-1. HARVARD: Object to faro.. 17 * would have no way of answering that, w. Doctor, just a couple other quick questions. 19 *ou, in your direct examination, indicated or 2 0 differentiated between an association and a causal 21 relationship, is that correct? 22 A. Yes. 2 .j Q. Doctor, what is your criteria for there to be 24 -in s.ssocintiont 3.s you usecl tiiut term? * 25 Mil. HARVARD: Do you mean an association KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES " (612) 922-19.55 sivV -** g-norai cr with respect tc particular cireccry c: n4m .subjects? . 3 w * rwi^Ai 4 1 "c. I an talking, Doctor, specifically wit': 5 reference to your definition of the word association in i , 5 ruwiiwul context. in other wcrcs, what criteria do you :c ; j 7 or do you require before you can conclude that there is *n 8 association between a substance and a medical no.ladcy 5 resulting from that substance? - 10 A. In the concept of an association what you are 11 talking about is a group of people who are exposed to a 12 given substance and who demonstrate an increased incidence 13 cf a disease as -- :;cii( that's it. 14 Q. And what do you require when you use the word 15 causal relationship, that is to say, what criteria do you 1 j require to conclude that there is a causal relationship as 17 you have defined those terms? x 6 A. All rignt. hath the causal relationship you t t I 19 require more data than you do for a simple association. A 20 causal relationship you not cnly have to demonstrate the 2x fact that there is indeed an exposure to a given manorial, 22 you have to demonstrate the fact that this disease appears 23 only in these people who are exposed to this material. You 24 have to demonstrate the fact that there are no other 25 factors involved in the potential cause for the condition * KIABY a . KENNEDY ^ASSOCIATES 922-1955. ` .n t.-._ vr.: US a i :s: s :_p, if -1 :w : s* pojsib;., you ;;,r.t animal ex a;-r!-c o-- :3-, --, *;*o.d this a d i r i c i is cajublj - t >ci__ .. cbj-ii-vjd to be doing in nunans. Q. r.^n,; you, Doctor. That answers my yu :sicn . I ., ---rrt ng once again to Exhibit Number 72, t'.i-- *3 tv- *tter r.ow that Dr. Hall wrote? d A. Yam. ` ' 9 "n paragraph within that Lector, 10 second line, you will see that he referred to, "The cancer 11 P-oducir.g report." Do you see that0 12 A. xcS 1 * 2. Doctor, './hat cancer producing roper:: was Dr. 14 hall referring to? 15 *** * '-U'-i'w have the ratio fast idea. 16 nh. :IA?.VAhD: Off the racord. 17 (nt this cine a discussion was held off 10 the record.) . 19 3Y Mil. POLK; . 2 3 Q. hew, Doctor, again inferring to that sane 21 exhibit, you will see in Paragraph 2 that Dr. hall is' 22 suggesting .that ha is going to have you "Formulate a 23 tutoaent for us", and that's a quote. Do you see that0 24 A. Yes, I see it. , 25 Q* New, did you ever formulate a statement for KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES (612) 922-1955 i . 3 I -1- 'riauir is y ~, 3 u 3 embodied ir. your Asbestos *o.<i._oicgy Report or reports? '* It: -P^nds on which. one you refer tc. w. Luc me *.sk you this. Other than documente 7 toat dro antic led "Asbestos Toxicology Reports", did vou 6 formulate any internal documentation or statements that are 3 not entitled "Asbestos Toxicology Reports" that you drafted 10 or h-.d drafted for general circulation? 11 A. I really can't remember. 12 Q. Now, in the first, paragraph of that exhibit, 13 you wixl see that Dr. hall refers to several reports given at technical meetings and summaries of them carried by the nacior.al wire services. Do you see rh^t' A. fes. 17 Q. .That several reports is he referring to? 18 A. I don't have any idea. 19 2. 1/hat technical meeting is he referring to-5 20 I don't have any idea. 11 rW> What summaries is ha referring to' 22 A. -- I.-don't have any idea. 23 3. And what national wire services is he 24 referring to? ' 25 A* I don't have any idea. 1$ C KIRBY A. KENNEDY fc ASSOCIATES ' /V** f".. ^ * ->o yo aoo ~.VJ or ine r -'*n*y i-lwi iiwU" *"*' an/ ...ir.u ;_s of ths - 1 -*- -;-ti..-3 w- ---/ summarise of -h? r.rrxc"' 1 j>.r v. j^ ^ that ref :r;-:c ;o wirhin root. Irttar'' 0 i. .lARVA.-.D: Object to th ; for.:. ii **r/un.an------i .o I .'..J.. -'><-LT.w'. in just asking if ;-4; rvcr 8 raw them. 9 ::k. .LARVkUO; I understand. My 10 objection as argumentative: goes to the nature of th~ 1*x*. preparatory comment. 12 POLK: ; will withdraw that part of 10 it then. 14 wince I nave no id:a what he refers to, I have 15 no way of knowing whether I ever saw any of them or not. 10 Q. Doctor, thin finally, you know Mr. Pufrhl, is 17 that correct? 18 A. 3uc Pufaji 1, yes. 19 C * _ iiow' 1 h-v/e a document here in front of na 20 that iS.datd.F "brUary ' 1 9 C 5 a nd I don't believe that 21 that was used m the earlier part of this deposition. 22 ---------42~ POLK: I don't know, Bill, if you 23 have a copy there or not, 24 . HARVARD: I am looking right n o w , 25 Mike. Can you give me a hint as to what it is? is it a KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES "'"'`O' 1 - a Jr- ^ c-s';;!"5 la in a lattar? :.X. ?OLi\: -t's a Lamborghini car. * HARVARD; .13 don't '-viva it. MR. POLK: It's a February 3, 10 30 I-c-` Pur;*-'l to Poter Choston. *> ccHwinui? '..'hil-i you =ru lochi 3Y MR. POLX; `2. HARVARD : Yes, 3 Doctor, do you know who Mr. Piter A. Chesters 10 is of London, England? il * <ilo lOw ' Q. Doctor, can you recollect back in the 1965 13 time n a m e tout the U.K. paper industry and issues --1T involving asbestos within that industry'5 I a;:, just talking 15 generally new. _ 1 5 A. Hot really. 17 C. Hell, let me ask you this. Did you aver meet 13 witn Mr. Pufahl in 1966 and reviaw with him toxicology x 9 studios relative to asbestos- that were from England-5 20 A. I really can't recall. 21 Q. Doctor, do you recall this, do you recall 22 indicating feo-Hr-- Puf-ahl in 1966 that the papers that you 23 reviewed at that time, "Do not by any means present 24 incontrovertable proof nor do they profess to do so." Do 25 you recall that at all? . KIR3Y A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES (612) 922-1955 .^'.3 r,< 4. I :.v, ; - o I h-iv i no ;i..t lint ussci;:d witn. b-t 7.:. ask you chis. Do you recall el/isiry 4 .ir. Puf an 1 in 1335, .-..id this would be prior to February 3 5 "* i >^, tout Union C-rbide's, "Position should remain :h 5 in United States c-xp'-'ri iVUu cheru has been no increased 7 incidence of lur.3- cancer whan the threshold limit, hus net o been ;::a seed." Do you recall ever .taking that statement 9 ec h r Pura.il? i 0 \. - I don't recall making it to Pufahl, but I il agr^e with ic. 12 ! 3o you don't h_ve any reason to doubt that you 13 may have stated that at that tint, is that right7 X T A. I would say that's tor root. 15 C Doctor, dc you have any information, and you 1 3 .nay :cti that t.iis is a ridiculous question, but 1 it no 17 just asI? it any.;ay. Do you have any inf e m o t i o n that the 13 a n a t o m cal maneup of a native of England is any different 19 than the anatomical makeup of a person living in the United 20 States in 1966? 21 !Ul. HARVARD: Object to the form is 22 arjumontativea,-- but.go ahead. 23 A. They are mad at us. I can't answer the 24 question. ' 25 Q. Do you have any information that would * KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES . , ( 1*2 ) t; M & h ' V : -V n c u t e cc you in 19oG t:ial a native of England --xs nor. 2 susceptible to ashes to-related di'?ases than pardons in the J United States? 4 A. That, sir, would require a text because o: the 5 hi;3-h incidence of air pollution in England at that tine and 5 -t subsequent years and the affect that this r.irht indaei 7 have upon the development of asbestosis. w Q. hy question though relates to I960 an-?, that is 9 whether or not you had any information which indicated to 10 you that persons in England 'were more susceptible to 11 asbestos diseases than persons in the United States. Do 12 you have a r=collection of having any information in that 13 regard ac that tine? , i, */** A. T.u only recollection I would have would he 15 that if you ashed me that question in 19C5 uy answer would 15 be t.ne sane, that the high incidence of air pollution in 17 eng-und would make it vary likely that the people exposed 13 19 20 21 22 2 3 24 25 3C ./cur 'i u s rf F.'brur.ry was your understunaing and you hold '.he belief .. ;*'v"'"^t in inyianu ;src .nor.' sus reptibiw to isbus ccs-roiut :?. r:s:cs;s chan perrons in the United Oteros'* *.. I did not ha/a tha; belief and I d e n ' b 'linve in chat particular thing. You arc crying to or acta sccie cuing which aid not exist in ciy personality at that icie . II?.. POLK: 3ill, do you have the 10 document? 11 MR. HARVARD: Me don't have it hero, 12 Aiks. I an sorry, we v/cuid love for you to fax us a copy 13 Luc 1 don'c have it here with ne. 14 MR. POLK: All right. ,, j-3 MR. HARVARD: Me are happy to eich-:r 15 have you fax a copy cr read portions of it to the Doctor 17 and ask him questions. 13 DY MR. POLK: 13 Q. i-Thy don't I do that. Doctor the second 20 puragrapn in your latter or, I -an sorry, this is Mr. 21 Pufahl's letter, in fact I will read the first paragraph. 22 It says, "Dear Peter:" this is to Peter Cheston of Union 20 Carbide Limited, 8 Grafton Street, London, England. It 24 says, "Dear Peter: Your suggestion that we consider 25 including, 'U.K. paper industry' in our general sales KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATE_S (612) 922-1955- Xi , . :sr. .u/.-.i -- uni I plan to rview eh: --.otss ) ^i ~ *Jii Sayers . J .iprepos of your rettir cn toxicological 4 -5x- -ive .o usbeatos -- we have reviewed tns two 5 ^:curpos you s.r.r us with Dr. Carl Dernahl. a* counsels b that c.ca papers 'do not by any aeons present / incontrovertible proof nor do they profess to do so .' 3 Further: 'Our position should remain that in Uniter st-.tes y -Xpert snee there has been no increased incidence of lung 10 c._nc_r wa,n the threshold limit has not been exceeded.'" 11 Doctor, doss that help refresh your 12 rcollection at all on this subject? ij ' 14 15 lo 17 IS 19 20 21 22 23 24 j . 25 A. It sLutes two things. 3. Doctor, let me interrupt you. I am just asking you if ,,hot I read helps r.fr.sh your recollection? That's all I have asked you. A. No. Q. Now, let me just go on in this letter. in the Second paragraph of the latter it states this, again this letter being written by Hr. Pufahl, "We will 1st you know the results, probably in an appropriataly written statement by D*. Do*nfti, ^ ^ t i o n to you, Doctor, is this, do you have any recollection of writing a statement at the request of Mr. Pufahl dealing with the subject matter that's contained within this letter? 4 , . u* KIR3Y A. KENNEDY 6 ASSOCIATES (612) 922-1955 ... 2 7 3 3 10 : i 12 13 'Mix look c r has now b 3-jii V your - e a t e r o f m_ r m 31, me.r.kri as E x h i b i t 43, do V i -* *,lQV; I*. 12 70 , whir'"" '* >* . you sea th.c. 1 : t t er~ 11 *.ie i - s : paragraph reads, 1i p i c -; : 3 : ....... ..-.n..As_s. ociation batwa ;-.n r:u;cc:posure to :s'.-'--OS -U3t ^ .^ d3Vil0^ nt of ^ n c . V ani ^sothsliooo. 7 - r . 13 n 1ufr -ion r-*guru incj Cairidia asbrstos in this a s p e c t ,,3 yet. 11 would be pru.3-.nt co assume that S a r . u i , ,, b ,, , o . Viii bJlltve Ilk, ether, ,, b o , t o , in this regard." Do you see tnat reference? A. Y e s . ' '2* Cln W - assume th-'tu t`"huact -'S<? s-nonmiert..th,,i.ng ycu wrotesince it's ever your signature? A- That's right. J. 3 J '... 'iould .you S** .with me then that to. of hero-' 1G i/ i97Q VOU b31.1'1V A *'--f. r*_ .,. . .. - ........" " Ll Ca*riuia asbistos may very w e l ' 17 cause mesothelioma? Is A * NO>.. `..S,,iirf ly .state<3 it wouldn' t be prudent, to 19 assume . that this migdht ham^n -iappen. rf j . It does not mean that it 20 will happen. 21 Q* Would you agree with me that as of March 31, 22 i! 70 i- M,, a possibility? A ' Af * tnln?...iT 4 possibility when you jr- dealing 24 with something like that. 25 C ` .. Wel`'. yOU.tho'Jght it was enough of a KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES (612) 922-1955 - .- -J.-- -- ,Y?V.?..lvtt2r t h - 2 pruc.nl person . m> 3i!y*^ -SAJuas. that it ..right c::u.^ i I * * * *4*-t ^ 11^4*. C HARVARD: I object to th j for- 3 t:,it 1S ' ^ t ! . it *., ,ot a 6 prudent person could assume that would occur. It s t n r - 7 U ,y, in the letter ,* : rbjcct to your 8 c.ruract erizat ion. 9 /-El. BROhDISOJ: Wall, I think ha has 10 already answered the question. -.-IK. HARVARD: :ly object is still on the 12 record. The Doctor answered prior to ay objection. :iy 13 objection, I believe, is good. 14 . M R ` BROWNSO:l: The objection is noted. . 15 MR. HARVARD: Good. 15 3Y MR. 2ROMMSON: 17 2. Did you also believe, Doctor, as of March 31, 13 1970 that mesothelioma could be caused by exposure to 19 asbestos below the then existing TLV or threshold limit 20 value? 21 A. I did not believe that because we had no 22 evidence to-*uppor4-*ych a belief. 23 2*_ Well, I am not talb-inn ^hnn- n a i.i j.._ 24 specificaliy, i am talking about any type of asbestos. Let 2 5 me rephrase the question. ' __________________ ._--_ . 1 T - KIRBY A. KENNEDY fc ASSOCIATES ' , 1 * * I tii ;r.k you said l-.Ir iJi i :;v . c.,,i *^ o. .. ...a ;. (h 3. if I did, I will r.ph.nsa the quo S11C7. ",j n c 9 y J i im 1 ^ -97J -l-* ^u .jj11wv ~ t.'...t .7.1501 ;.l i o n co :i ' h- 4 Caused *Vr exposure to any tyoe of asbestos at levile hri-.- . .a C j ,1'.ola 1litit viiuc1 -<o, wo id not. t 'j. L t-1 u refer you, Scator, to w vat's ccc-r. ! 3 .Marked as exhibit 43, v/hic'n is the asbestos toxicology -J -epcu-t of May 8, 13-39. Do you sec'that' 10 A. Yes. i * C . Look i z the last paragraph on Paga i. 12 A. Yes. ihw second t-ow th -' iluasetf j--c i,,^un' .c wni.cn road,s, 1 4- n o n t.vo tat-a available it appears that the ?L7 of fi\a ail11 ion p a n i c l e s par cubic' foot nay not bs low enough to 1 protect against nosethiliona." Do you see that? A. Yes. . S. 3o would you agree with ns that at least 13 according* tou Uunai.ouna C.^u-f.cci-ui.-4'cs- As_wbest4.os ,,Toxi.cology Report 20 :,ay 3 ' 1939 a o l t l o n s " Uni" = b i a . believed t t m to be 21 true? 22 ^ - H A R V A R D : Object to the forn of the 23 question. 24 BY MR. BROtfiiDOU; 2 5 Q* Go ahead and answer. 1/ T O D \ T * / r t ^ X '7 HARVARD: 4- is look ir.g at tkj report right now, HR. 3h0.o;oo;.: Excuse me. T *'A . HARVARD: He is looking *t th . 5 repo.t right now. to I Sxid at th i :ir.c that this statement was 7 ua^e it was probably true because vary shortly aftor"ards 5 t..re*.ioId limit level was iov/ored frca iiv.; to two. 9 w. Well, would you agree with me that .t that iJ time you questioned whether even two million fibers oar II cubic foot was an adequate threshold limit value to prever.i 12 against mesothelioma? 13 A. No, I would not agree with that. 14 well, let no refer you, Doctor, then to a 15 letter whicn I think your Counsel has ani I would ask that 16 wo pull out. It v;as exhibit 33, the letter of June 7, 196` 17 to Dr. Hall from yourself. 1f X ^ . .IR. HARVARD: Hold on on that. Let's 19 see if we can find it. Juno. 7, '63, is that right7 20 I1R. BZ10WU501I: '67. 21 HR. HARVARD: I aa sorry, 'G7. 22 -rlRnr-BR0V7NS0LJ: A two page letter on 2T Union Carbide stationery. 24 h r . l a u r A: Can we go off the record? 25 (At this time a discussion was held off KIR3Y A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES X the r . c o r u . j <r \ ) J A* ; car. un der st an d i t . <-U. .4. -3 yoxu, , W "N l . t ' s go back c.n the I'o.-or- >.^r2 o:to . i is th is . In your k * or Jun: /, 1:6. to Dr. .ijil, wr.ich has pr.viously 2a jn marked os Derr, hi deposition exhibit 13, you make the or: ?:g: 2 ir. t.-e j-cond full paragraph, "It is probable -- " ini I nr. quoting, "It Is probable that the five million particle: 9 par cubic foot will not be acceptable for the prevention cf ID masetheiioma. I have no idea what concentration right be 11 effective in preventing this disease and I an .'.'encoring 12 whether a level of one million particles per cubic foot <r ID would be acceptable." Do you see that reference0 V a. *T A. Yes, I see that. 15 Q. Having read that would you agree that as of 1 o June of 1067 you were questioning whether a. threshold limit 17 value of one million particles per cubic foot would be IS effective to prevent mesothelioma? 19 MR. HARVARD: Object to the form. Go 20 ahead, Doctor. 21 A.' Wo. Actually this is a simple statement thit 22 you say, -- I--wondar if -- " and it simply svys here -- I 23 simply say here I wonder whether a limit of one million 24 particles would be effective. 25 Q. -That's right. KIRBY A. KEHHEDY & ASSOCIATES 1 I'v/o ^1rtic 1 s m igb t still be effective 2 ^ Luc I guess the question is there was ;:t least J some gu?st ion ir. your mini as of th at da te .'hither caw ntr* mi H i on might be effective cr not' 5 ri. Lrc, not really. I was just simply impressing o an cp ini on about the uncertainty of this thing and 1 used nt t:i- "I wond.-r if" cs a way of doing that. n 2. './ould you agree with se that as cf June 7, * 5 .937 you believed tnere was some uncertainty as to whether 10 the threshold limit value would prevent mesothelioma? 1 x A. 12 was. Depends upon what the threshold limit value ,, 13 w. Le t's take five million fibers per cubic foot. 14 Five million particles per cubic foot was 15 probably too high on the basis of the fact that it bed 1G subsequently teen lowered to tvro. 17 0. Lould you agree with me as far as you were 13 concerned you did not know whether two million fibers per 19 cubic foot would prevent mesothelioma"5 20 A. No, I did not know that. 21 Q. Do you believe that as of 1967 Union Carbide 22 should have conveyed to its customers the fact that: it was 23 nor certain whether two million particles per cubic foot 24 would prevent mesothelioma? 25 MR. HARVARD: Object to the form of the ' " KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES " .-...on, dee 44.-. answer, Doctor, i! you .. 2 . - oulJ say no simply bee -jjfjj ca.i going co.icrary rc the g.-narall/ .-.reac.t*-.5 4 day _r.d time. 3 y^u believe that 43 of Jjne of Ur.icn 6 -- i-iv-a 3.-.ouia hovo toic. its curt0*30rs of Calridii ash'-e-c- 7 :`riC t"' million fibers par cubic foot threshold limit b value would prevent aasothaliona? ' 9 -1. ilA-IVAAD: Object to the form of the 10 question and also object to the question in so far as it's 1_l -aL.iny about whet a corporation should or should not hava 12 t-one which .'lay be outside- the realm of anyone's osvview id ether than the jury's in this eas a. Answer -h queer ice, 14 if you can, Doctor. 15 A. No, I don't think I can answer the t. 1 *3 U*\ Do you believe, Doctor, that as of Vagust of 17 1372 Union Carbids Corporation should have told its 15 t.j o tuw do o f C a I n d i a asbestos that if they were within the 19 threshold 1imit value they did not need to worry About any 20 disease among their employees? 21 Mil. HARVA.VD: Object to the form. tame 22 objection as before. Answer the question if you car., Ti Doctor. 24 A. I ti-iin.': the corporation had the right'to 25 inform its customers that on the- basis of current knowledge, KIR3Y A. KENNEDY ieiii & ASSOC'HIAarTrES n_ch was u threshold li -; v -Im ... . , ..v.w tr.ry could jxprot the **9'+ */*** t o be .gainst th, hax 3 r . Jm - 'O c to j , would that include the hazard of raesczhiliona as of .lagast cf 1972? v. :lc3ot.i;l;o.ta must have been considered ir. this sstair.y of the threshold limit value. I.?. HARVARD: I ob jact. I hava he Si-fc ^orn of oojection- to t.vat question as I previously stated. 9 * d`V t think the Court -^Portar heard it. The Doctor and 10 I war a talking at the san-a tine. 11 3'/ MM. 3MO.MISOH: 12 `* I3octor' do you believe that as of 1037 Union 13 Carbids should have stated in 5 ; ^ el on cnlridia artistes 14 baSs that t h e n was a possibility that Calvidia could causa 15 mesothelioma? . 16 . M3. dARVARD: Object to the fern cf the 17 question and I will also state that this entire line of 13 questioning was done on earli - . '--OsS*3xacir.aticn and I an 19 objecting3 to the 'q iuestion 3333 h.laavvii-nmg-t previousl,y been asked 20 and answered. It's also bovond th,-> - . u '-j uu-1 tne scope of the direct 21 examination which was just conducted. * 22 A A . BEOWHSQN: Are you going to let hi rr, answer? MR. HARVARD: You can answer the 25 question, if you can. Doctor. 14 KIRBY A. KENNEDY k ASSOCIATES (612) 922-1955 ^ , .t '..'Cwl-i you r>pe:-.t the ;-j >st ion7 I:-. .-cnecrs.ticn I lest ir. 4 Kirby? ' - -1-1 r .-/r : '.'oild you i -r.1 3 U-.o o n s cine thi requested portion o i the w t-- ns_r ipt was r 31d aloud by the Court' I Reporter.) o 1R. HARVARD: Sans objections . 9 x957 tnsre was no evidence that 7ai,'iJ '-. 10 asbestos would cause nesothslioma so there is no point ir. a. X putting it on the label. 12 Q. Doctor, earlier this afternoon hr. Kennedy 13 as.-ied you sene questions about or ir. Harvard, I an serrv, asked you so.r.e questions about the toxicology reports and 13 who they would be sent to and that sort of thing. Do you - 6 recall that? ' 17 A. Yes. "5 Q. Do you have any information, Doctor, that -y 19 asbeSwOs toxicology report fron Union Carbide was in fact 20 sent to Conwed Corporation? 21 a . I have no information on that. 22 Q. Let aa pose to you sons hypothetical questions 23 24 hypothctieals. MR. HARVARD: Object to the fern of any 25 MR. BROWNSOU: Objection is noted, Bill. KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES --m' i v----'-J.+*. 2 Yam: 4 L >i1"n - ^ . ; -'4* *aroiCi-c p 2rsonr.:l con :uc tsd 3 in3 at t:`~ Cor-v*** H ^ n t in 1972, assume that's cru,, Dec or , do you b e i e v e those Onion Carbide industrial u/.jicnisoo 3-cuIj nave informed Conwud thee Calriliu could possibly causa masothaiiona7 MR. HARVARD: Object to the fern of question. Object to the question as calling for * 9 speculation. Object to the question ns a hypothetical. 10 Object to the question as argumentative. Go ahead, Doctor, 11 answer i f you oan. > A. './oil, in 1072 there was still no evidence that Calriuia asbestos could causa mesothelioma. Q. 15 Doctor? vO would your answer to the question be no, 16 HA. HARVARD: I believe the Doctor 17 answered the question. 13 - 19 Ci x v*L * MR. BROMJOO.I: '-Jell, I don't think he J 20 MR. LAURA: Ha obviously felt it didn't 21 for a yes or no answer. 22 2Y MR. BROWN3ON: Q. Doctor, answer this question. Assume 24 hypot.i_tically that Union Carbide personnel conducted air 25 sampling at the Conwed premises in 1972. Do you believe "|0 ; KIR3Y A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES 'C Union 2c.ib-. i'-rjon: - m o u _2 live ir.fo C;i" : Ca:`iJi'iiUj couiJ '-'xposura below tha threshold li i .msothciiona? ;R. I.i UiKDJ Obj let CO CiS for;' ' r'i--otxcr.. 0 b ; m z co the form as hypoth :tical. object :o - is `orn Jx arguriincativa. Calling for soecuinti on. to th- i-5 bulling for information cuts id* -y acopa and the knowledge of this witness. Further obj?: y bsh-ac ana answered. Go ahead and answer -the question n> v, 10 tcccoi i if you ujin* " list or all, the only thing : c m say is that 12 * -enow of no evidence that Union Carbide people aver did i J n.ho any surveys at Convad. 14 w. Tharps way I ashed it hypothetically, doctor, 15 because I Know-you are not aware of that. 1S ** i would expect that Union Carbide >:cr>l.e would 17 xnform the Conwed people that they were within the 13 thresnclu limit value and that was really the only thing 1S that we were in a position to answer to. 20 Q. Let me ask the further hypothetical and s a w 2. time. I assume your same objections will be made and they 22 are noted here. in HARVARD: I will just place ny 24 Objections to uhl last question to this question. ' 25 BY MR. 3ROVfNS ON: KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES am-its; ./.u 1 bo y= bo 1iev2, Doctor, t''iu. if 2 aonnil /era usuud at the line of such uir cunolinc the r J whey should have disclosed chat any disses.' :ouli be ecus ;d 4 by exposure to asbestos unbt.r th 2 threshold lir.it velue7 5 .1.1. .IwlVXRD. done objection. - **> oo t sure I can answer that ousel; or. th? 7 way at was werid. 3 . '.Toy is that, Doctor-5 ` 9 A. 'all, thi way I -- wall, -I can't understand it 10 the way it was worded, especially the last part of it. 11 G- Let ns rephrase it and it will bj the sore 12 nypothetxCix and the sure objections are noted. Do you 1 D believe, Doctor, if Union Carbide personnel were conduction 14 air sampling at the Conwed plant in 1972 -and wer 2 asboc by x 5 wOnwed whether exposure to Calridia asbestos under the 16 threshold linxt vaxue could cause disease, do you bel i^v * x 7 then they should have -- strike that. What response should 13 they have given to that question if asked7 13 MR. .L.rvV.\r.D: Same objections, plus 20 object to the compound nature of the question. -k A. My opinion is that their response should have 22 been that they were not qualified to answer that question. iJ If.those Uni oh "Car bide personnel who were not 24 qualified to answer the question wanted an answer Ln August 25 of 1972 who within Union Carbide could they have turned to ' KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES (612) 922-1955 ! >. . . 1 -1 5 S 7 3 9 10 11 12 13 14 1 o x 7 1 3 19 20 n * 22 2 3" 24 25 l- thit -ma io gut an ia3w,.-' H i *.7c w ^ o *rii 'r.sy would have come tc probably ay office i: w Doctor, I have a few more questions here. -ir" v' s if'-'irnoon d.r. harvard was asking you about -c.lridi- ,,eing snort fibered. questions? Do you renumber those A. Yes. 2- Do you recall what tha definition of asbestos was by OSHA in 1972, how they defined asbestos? A. l*o, I don't recall that. C. .lave you ever-heard asbestos defined as a fiber of five microns in length? Have you ever heard that definition used? A. Uelx, I suppose that would be -- could be five, or six, or seven, or eight, or 10, or 20. 2* -* am 3U3t wondering if you have heard the definition of five microns used in any context? A. Well, I have heard the -- well, I am not s u m x can answer it in that regard. I have heard of the fact that ascestos is described as a material of varying fiber length varyHog-- frorrimctually two and three microns up to 20 or more microns. Q. Let me ask you this, Doctor. Would you agree with me that those Calridia asbestos fibers.which are less KIRBY A. KENNEDY % ASSOCIATES X\ 7ha.i fiv microns in icr.gtu are 3 1 asbestos fibers' 2 . A Jure. w* In othsr words, what I an getting at, Doctor, 4 is just because a Cairidia fiber night be less than five 5 nitrons or ten nicrono or any other length, it's still an 6 asbestos fiber, would you agree with that? 7 .a . Yes. 8 Q. Do you know, Doctor, what resolution a 400 9 power Leitz phase contrast microscope would have? 10 A. No idaa. lx Q. I think you told us earlier you hadn't 12 actually counted fibers under a nicroscope, but I am 1J wondering now if you simply know what the resolution of 14 such a microscope would b; 15 A. No, I have no idea. 16 C* One final question, Doctor. If a person were 17 counting Culridia asbestos fibers, do you agree with me 18 tnat they should count all Calridia asbestos fibers ever, if 19 they are less than five microns in length0 20 HR. HARVARD: Object to the form. There 21 is no context in which that question is given. I don't 22 know that it-!-s-capable of an answer being in the abstract, 23 unless it's set forth for what purpose this counting or 24 measurement is assumed to be used. 25 BY I1R. BROWN3ON: KIRBY A. KENNEDY ,,ASSOCIATES c. 'hr.t's fair enough. Let me rephres; the 9 r coition, Decs OlT xf ^ person were testing the \\r to s ' if th.re 'dCJ Cuiridia daJJo ^OS f1 * 3 in t;ie v.reu, would you ugr-u ;/ith me that that person, to determine the r.unba O'f fibers X.* wha air, should count all Calridia fibers, wheenur cr 4*0t they or c less than five nierons in length.0 7 :a. HARVARD: I h a w - chn same objection 3 *5 still being overly broad and vogue for purposes of 3 giving a meaningful answer. Answer it if you can, Doctor. 10 A. I can't answer it because I am not an expert j.n tn counting of fibers and the guys that set up the criteria f i. -j I am not f 14 W Do you xno'.v is Union Carbide at any tine sit 15 up its own i fibers > 17 A I have no way of xnowing. 13 AM fou never had anything to do with that, i take 1 J It? 2D a\ Absolutely not. 21 Q. Do you know who at Union Carbide would hav.- 22 iiad someth '-h that? . 23 A. I would assume either B. *i. McDaniel or L. j, 24 LaFrancs. 25 M2. BROiVNSOSJ: That'a all I have, Doctor. * ** . KIRBY A. KENNEDY. &. ASSOCIATES / CJ, HARVA.10: :1aV5 3C'lj 7^ r/ v* ; reuxrcct, probably t h r -> y - -3-` minutes -"-1= wO 3c not much right now' c yc i - `1-- *-<-05: /s . :1?`* :'1 V m H D i Do-s anybody -Us; hive any c:ner u n i o n s before I do my very brief redirect? B ^ J S O t T : I have a oouo' - P0 - 9 `'ill. Can I just ask them? 10 MR. HARVARD: Go ahead. 11 o Y MR. 3R0'./Hj D;.t: a- Earlier, Doctor, Mr. Harvard had ashed you 13 -tout Dr. L a s e r ' s article that we asked you about m , k " D /0 U haV# M Y r" 30n to Relieve, as you sit here 15 -c-e,, that Dr.. Laager's research on Calricia asbestos is 15 not valid' l / '':R* ^ R V A R D : Object to the form of the 13 questioa. The Doctor doesn't have Dr. Langor's rest-arch in IV treat of hi,, nor a, I aware that Dr. Dsrnehl has over seen Dr. uan,e. s .esearrn, nor in fact do we have before us a n : -opy of the conclusions Dr. Langar reached in the paper 22 which he published, Absent Dr. Dernehl having an 2j opportunity to review those prior to answering suoa a 24 question I will objeot to it and I w i n direot the witness 25 not to an3wcr. * Ov KIRox a . KENNEDY & .ASSOCIATES; t* m > -.t 0 c w 3 10 i j *^' *"*Vuir5*Wl.; i -*\x* 4 y?-jj v; w ith 1-' * n- *; *j., tr.-t - - . 3err. 2hi d 10, `73 sp .'r.t w.fl 11 -a- aeir.g : h* aid reed the Le.-qar art ic we snowed it to m e presented it to him an .-.a r v l r d : :.'iron 11 th as a qu C0V'* jfi Sob? O 'J-ci frankly I don't ** "iw ft5t* ^ ***** 3i1w .`iUiJC.I j J o n `- YOU -s:t him that question. * you --'---`'oar loading-the article I showed you aoout Dr. Langur's study of the Calidria fiber7 - - * -wr._ab.-_ _ o_^ing an article. It scons to r,2 i2 m a t that was an article which was devoted to description * of the astiGtos fiber. i. -t `` `'-i'Shc. Tnc.c`3 the article. All I an 15 i-.onc__ xr.g, Doctor, and you can just answer yas or no, do 10. you huvt aay information that thia is anything in that x 7 t___. you can tsli us now that you disagree wish z r 13 that you believe is not valid? . iy 1A. JAR\7/Vtd): I have the same objection 20 sinus he does not have the articla before hi. He loov.f 21 -t it over a week ago. I believe he stated at the time it 22 Wws w..e f i r s ^ - t a ^ - ^ - n a d seen that article. I think i;' 3 23 inappropriate to attempt to cross-examine him over the 24 telephone with that document at this time. I will let him 25 answer the question, but I place those objections on the 0^ ! l .. " KIRBY A. KENNEDY & .ASSOCIATES -- . (612) 922-1955 ^ ` ' --cord. jo.:tor, you can ..r.swer. A. :*.y answer io siji':. .. an not in a suienci^: -ccivity or branca th.t could : o n m n c LJcn -che :rr outness of Dr. Lange: *3 article. you, i U * arOi.-JCOI!: That's ail : a3s<:. -:hin *P. TII0D.I3J0: Bill, ba;`o:o you do a --t, I an tha attorney for Calotes in Carry, Canada. 10 c a o 3 s - z h a m i o a t i o :; 11 b y .ir. t h o r n s j o : 1 13 Dula. Doctor, 300d afternoon. A3.. HARVARD: Ha doesn't much liba you, 1 D BY ;IR. THORNSJ O : 0- Good afternoon, Docco; 17 A . Yes. 1C W Doctor, I just have one question. Are you 19 familiar with a concept or a hypothesis known as the 2 0 Stanton hypothesis? 21 A. Never heard of it. * 2 THORNS j o : Thank you, Doctor 23 HR. HARVARD: Anybody else? 24 MA. POLK; Dill, I am not going to have 25 anything further today, but it is my understanding from KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES (612) 9 2 2 - 1 9 5 S % 10 12 14 5 it / 13 Id 20 22 23 24 25 ! tn.c ; :r-= ^ i n y to cc.v.p L..: : c'.*-3 ) ..Tt o JO i3 -4 afford Unie>n C.rbida tho on tor tun i- idt or --husiiicat a C . Der.n.hi ^ -n :ot ' ri-y.it t o further di soevery of * Dernekl. - :nac clear on the record. Hike. -id. UA.1V.hDD : You have nad thee I l(" '' -o -,- . ... , . P-^-- ^ c n o f statament on th shit tac' raaaca 1 requested the deposition h 3 ' iriu.M nt** 'ca'1/ Weis not to attempt CO rehabi1i .citi or do anything else with.Dr. Darnehl other than to ask hin cn.s, questions which I i m d Union Carbide vantai asked un answered by Dr. Darnahl on thy record. I would like to at y o. at cn= and of your question:.-.; bring this dep*osi--ic.u to > " ^--^i0 ^ 2 . , and to the extent Io**-. * -.u.es, State's Court "'ul* -i- r -J--3 of any other Cour fu.^har inquiry of Dr. Dernalil on any subject ill uak_ up .he ..itter of that discovery when i t '; requested. d?.. POLK; That's fine. -kCDir.zcT zx x . ii ,:a t i dlt 3Y MR. HARVARD: 2. Let me go ahead. i wili bo real quick with this redirect. Doctor, again, I an Bill Harvard, t represent Union Carbide along with other attorneys in this KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES I :* -'ross-cxamination by ::r. Brownson a3':-a ycu -tout asbestos toxicology reports, chat? .1 you recall - `<-33'ct to asbestos tc.:ioology resorts, .n-.xcA ..oro- pesci ad by Union Carbide Corporation, v,ra tier/ -jquirtw. er mandated Ly any agency of the Federal rr Ct:t-' government that you recall? ' 9 -let at trit time. 10 Q. Wera they required or Union Carbide to provid, tnosc to customers before customers would enter into lr business relationships with Union Carbide, if you knew1 ^ -'ioi that I know of. 14 c. .-/ere these asbestos toxicology reports, as <-11 as toxicology reports on hundreds of other chemist1s, lo marked by Union Carbide provided to the customer as a 1 7 s-rvire to those customers, if you know"5 la h. Yes, they were. 10 C. At your last deposit ion `you were asked about 20 dust studies which may or may not have been accomplished t; Union Carbide personnel at customer plant job sites. Do 22 you recall those questions? 23 A. Jot too well. 24 Q. Do you recall the hypothetical* which'Mr. 25 Drownson asked a few minutes ago about what if something if.. -; KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES ! (612) 922-1955 .. ' -.Vr-cTT" . 7' *.:oania COHWe u j1 i/;C? a;: vj 3j:': - - - 2, - I ' C C i l i t h c S l . * ..33 O.iiop. Carbide Ccrpcr 1 131 ; c: 3..31 or /our 3:o;;ui^, by any receval or 7` or nunuttod 'ey those gov-emno::ts to perform, :r.y !ur scuoias at c u i t e n r job sire locations? ' "hoy ./ra not. - i -hu c/t'jnt taut Union Carbide n-iy have 10 perrcr.ned any such studies, were they.dene, to your .-.nuw^sag i , as &. courtesy or a service to thos . :us toners'7 12 .Ik . 3R0-.*/x(0LC; iveli, I .m going to havi to obj.it to th.it -as a hypothetical, to follow for,,-, here. MR. HARVARD: Sure. 2Y MR. HARVARD-: 1 o 2. Answer if you can, Doctor. Let no ask the 17 question dirferensly. Do you knew whether Union Carbide ir. xi O-N i i . e e provided suen dust study services to any customers'3 19 A. I do not know that they aver did. 20 ^ * -'<>3 you cannot comment positively, negatively 21 or any direction on such a program, is that correct"3 \> A. That is correct. 23 Q. Doctor, with respect to Cairidia asbestos 24 fibers, what did you recall was generally the length of the 25 fibers which you recall as being Cairidia asbestos? KIRBY A. KENNEDY St.ASSOCIATES ?iv2 i;ic:on.j or less. You answer a: r . -ruv/nson's question a ( | 4*- t"-t in your opinion if Ciiri'i, ,,,s ,is3 ;>;n j : w a ni.-rons in length it rhoul-J jtili te rr.silord by y,-; 10 te asbestos, is that cor roof5 That's correct. - In fchat regard, Doctor, whil you nay still 3 consider it to ba usbastos, because of tha unique short 9 fibOr Ratura cf the Culridia asbestos, do you hve an 10 opinion as to whether it muy causa diffrant ractions in an individuj. 's bedy if it wus innniec by soncone fren 12 othar long fiberad asbestos7 13 A. Yes. 2* whit opinion would that ba? 15 A. Wall, tns evidence that we have is , ~6 -Jur.bar 1, the short fiber matrial is cleared from the 17 lungs more rapidly than is the long fibered material; in 13 oth-r rtO^ds, the particles are snail enough that they are 19 readily moved out of the lung by the cilius of the 20 respiratory tract. Furthermore, the very fact that the 21 material is short fiber, and not only short fiber tut a 22 very snail diameter, gives it quite different . ^ j characteristics of the longer stiffs types of asbestos that ua generally express, that long fibered material. 25 Q Doctor, does the fact that you still consider KIRBY A. KENNEDY & .ASSOCIATES. (612) 922-1955 .1 "A Of 3iv. ^ -' -1 - J J ^h 2 c , t -A . a . ..Ht1u^wir.C_u'. j, i, l, _ j.t,,.^ t"" *" =-.ut -.'.:t Cuu.iya ,.;y c -j t'.j -<=spor.i.-j clu: you iiVj ,,o jirli.o on dir art ::<r-i-i > - .aon I qucstio.icd you tout the capacity of Crlrilia 8^ "3 b 'a 'CJ tC /0Jr ^ o w l . c y o to uaas: such :i3- s :3 03 lu :g --.wor o0 msoul.'_ 1tome.? *'' ?2LK; I will object tc til-; fcrr. -1 tnai question 3 buing overly broad and vague and ccnnounl. 9 10 3Y MR. HARVARD: .12. DRObNDON: ' I also object to it. * X 0. you coo answer it, Doctor, please answer it. 12 A. u think the question is best answered b:yy tht 13 -i:nple statement chit -sbescos is a chemical entity. 14 wheth,er it ~ *.hr .j'3 T i 3 20 mi crons lone, 4iw. I 13 same chemical entity and r 3 Sti 11 in thr.t r^n;4 17 0. Doctor, you a; : now how 0 Id? 15 A. . 75. !StOS IS Q. You have bean :ross-exani nad tod -y 20 -bout a number of ev 21 0 41 years ago CO ver 22 that cor rect? 23 A. 40 or 41. 2; Q. Doctor, in a number of your responses'to 25 questions you stated that you could not recall or you did. l - KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES (612) 922-1955. " '`/ / W v ! U w 2xl j e r t . m kings, cjr:;.:n inc it*incus, is cent right? \ ' : .. . . . . .j ( "' *s *- SGa?- duo to :hj pxss'.g j Q f ti.:i_- which iias occurred since the events on /hich you wc: crc j3--_xc:.'iu jJ? luppened ndou~;uuj.y. - can't remember everything IIA.v!lD: Doctor, than!; you very much 10 somebody may have a few additional followup questions, but don't at this tin-*. X J 14 BY MR. POLK: .1-:0103 3 - ZM M 11NAT ION tt J-*** 1 5 Q. I nxvs three followup questions. Doctor, th 1G is Mika Polk representing the Plaintiff again. Dec vase o 17 tne long passage of tine, which you -./ere just asked .bout 13 by Mr. Harvard, would you agree with me that the documents L i that.WdrL drafted a;vJ written at times, such as in 20 the 19 6 0 '-s^ . wouia necessarily .be more raliabla than your 21 memory? 22 ' MR. HARVARD: Object to the form of the 23 question because there is no context in which that is 24 placed. I think it's an open-ended question and I 'think 25 it's one incapable of. answering as asked. Doctor, if you KIR3Y A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES (612) 922-1955-. | ' " * ' h "" 0 t answer it. 6[l ~*___ 1 say that tha written --or ; ..o u l 4 CJ ",c::c' r -* i " ~ic "h - r* -:y i:-- -y - '-.i pres -- ti-.u . rh,iak i'ou* Ooc"v;r. One other qussaicn, doctor ,a5 t.i. firtt tine thac you undirrtocd that cigarette ou,o>in9 could be haooricus to persons'* h e a l t h ^ -'Oul.i guess probably in the *203. C. .vnc, uoctor, co you have a reccllc-etior -s -- -.natn^r or not the govarnaent ever required a warning to be 1 u placed on packages of cigarettes? 11 A. Yes. 12 0. Do you recall, sir, when that was? 13 A. `.To. I don't. 14 Q. How, do you hav c any information that 15 o to you that th e.nan ufacturers cf clear att 1 2 reason to know that cigarettes could be a health harard 17 puaor to tr.s tine that the government required warnings on 1 - cigarette packages? 13 A. I an sorry, that's out of ny realm of 20 expertise, I can't answer that. 21 `13. POLK: Thank you very much, Dccto-. 22 That's all i have. 2u MR. LAURA: Mike, before we gc we talked 24 about this, why don't you pass a copy of thtt document that 25 you read from over to 3rucc? KIF3Y A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES (612) 922-1955 t - 1 ' 2 4 3 ; 2 .*fcr e wx cone 1u i :, w i 13o 2 nj.jd to clarify ;;h*t -r-i going to do with 2xl;i::: 4?, rhe sign.u or tne jo 3ign _u version. ih.. A?vi/! Anthony i3 walking out nov t.* tne signed ropy ..''.'.ion ho is taxing you 11. hh. IIARV.IRJ: I Will give it to hirby. appr _ciate that .*11. ?0LK: That's fins by ns, an! I 4 Bill, maybe you can give me an 4 explanation in Lttun *rtter or something as to what ycur 10 position is on the signed and unsigned copy? 1 _ A.?. IL-vP.V.'.hb: I can tell you right now. 12 x na 'u letters and files from different companies as well as in my own files where I h n w a copy of the unsigned X office copy as well as the signet copy that was sent c u . C and received by somebody. My office practice is we r.ahe 10 copies of the letters and stick them in the file before ^ / they are signed but, you know, that's -- 1 think that's I'd likely what happened here but that's just a guess on my 10 '**w x on t know wnat else it was tnat Union Carbide f '^ 2C or how they do their business, but I know chat's how the 21 U.S. i.'avy did it. That's where I learned my administration 22 skills. 23 iHx. TdITIS3: In the Carbide operation 24 the signed copies Wv_re received by somebody, the file copies were not signed. KIRBY A. KENNEDY t-ASSOCIATES (S12) 922-1955 ' '" :.a . t ' j->< -- --1 2 you advise t:r.u -C-.c. -ouut r u l i n g in3 signing"5 c u A UlVlPJ ; n-0_4. _ _., you b:;va th. riu''.c 4 to read the deposition to set if it is in feet n aecur .ia 5 -pr oou.cion of wart we ***.Vw 3C. nere be tween us. j Vju.c for you co r deposit ion. I knew it 7 4-,<2 difficult for you to read it because of *-h~ ! e o:iat may oc inveivo!.. Could eoe porti ss c e r e e that Or. 9 ^ur.iw-nx caule perhaps sit down with sonecr.e e n d r e e l :t ou 10 loud to him? i would like for you to review tha deposition, 11 Joetor i 4-I Tril ."ITJuJC: If thay send .to oho 13 --apos.tion I wourd be nappy to go r.haad -one raed t x 4 then indicate whatever changes I thin'; need to it -.;:d; i: 15 it and sign it in the presence of a notarv. 10 . --in. 4-in.V.V.U: fe would request th.tt Dr 17 /arr.snl do read and sign. Jr. D e man i, any changes ./hieh. 13 you note wnich snou^d be node should reflect the* tnera 19 hat the thing was in :orrcctly written 20 .1nv/ v/ould like to chung 2 21 T.C NIYNUsS: I unde tand. One other 22 thing, hew long do I have to do this? 23 .i?w. JONHS: Thirty days from the tine 24 chat you get the copy. Wa will make clear in the 25 transmittal letter when you have to have it back. KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES /^ 5 X \ A A M & a a ^>*1 * . 4>iA.