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* FTC 6253 10-3-46 I CONTENTS A IllQfiMI FOR THE COMMISSION DIRECT CROSS REDIRECT RECRoSfl Hayt, llliaa H. Zeller, Miles K. 1647 1563 COMMISSlnTH a FOR IDENTIFICATION IH EVIDENCE 638-A thru -C 838-D, 838-5-1* 838-D-2, ' (previously identified as 838-D on 10-2-46) 838-5* 838-$-1* 838-5-2, (previously identified ae 838-S n 10-2--46) 838-7, 838-7fl, 838-7-2, (previously identified as 838-7 on 10-2-46) . 838-8, 838-041, 838-0-2, (previously identified as 838-0 on 10-2-46)) 838-H, 838-B-l, 838-H-2, (previously identified as 838-H on 10-2-46) 838-i, 838-1-1, 838-1-2, (previously Identified as 838-i, on 10-2-46): 039 (Net used) 840-A through 840-Z-262 156-' 1634 1684 1584 1584 1584 1584 1594-96 N39105 OFFICIAL REPORT OF PROCEEDINGS BEFORE THE Federal Trade Commission DOCKET No........ S253 In the Matter of:.. .. mnONMi. .LEAD. COMPANY,. ET. AL S' i ' '* -** \*S \/',to \* JV- Date....... Pages....l.4$.tq.J6k 4 *' . ELECTREPORTER, INC., (WARD A PAUL) OFFICIAL REPORTERS 1760 PENNSYLVANIA AVfc, ft. W. Wa s h in g t o n 6, d . c . ^ (4364 NATIONAL < 4267 ( 42M> i I N39105.01 C..E.....R. . T...IFIC..ATE --. .............................. ... ......... ... This is to certify that the following pages and related exhibits are a transcript of hearings before the FEDERAL .'RABE COMMISSION in the matter of: >dcKET NO. - 5253 IASI TITLE - NATIONAL LEAD COMPANY, ET AL. PLACE - Washington, D. C 5ATE - October 3, 1946 PAGES NUMBERED____ 14<5L____to_ 1621INCLUSIVE: irhich were had as therein appears, and that this is the sriginal transcript thereof fbr the f'les of the Commission. ELECTREPORTER, INC. Official Reporter N39105.02 1A No. 2 Q Mr. Hayt, In selling keg products on the basis of this J3 zone map, how do you handle the freight charge where there is 4 an element of transportation by the carrier involved? Is 5 customarily the freight paid by Eagle-Picher, or does the ; j j 6 customer pay it, and an allowance made for it? 7 A Generally speaking, the customer pays the freight, and : j 8 an allowance is made for it. 9 0 Mr. Hayt, what brands are your hite lead in-oil sold 10 under? ; i II A The Eagle Branch, and Hammer Brand. 12 Q Is the Hammer Brand sold to dealers at the same price as 13 the Eagle Brand? 14 A Ho, the Hammer Brand has been consistently, I believe, 15 sold at a quarter of a cent a pound less than the Eagle Brand.< 16 Q How do the resale prices suggested by Eagle-Picher Company 17 compare on the two brands? 18 MR. WOOD: I object to the question. There is no ! 19 evidence in the record that Eagle-Picher has any policy of 20 controlling resale prices. 21 MR. WRIGHT: I withdraw the question, your Honor. 22 TRIAL EXAMINER NORWOOD: All right, go ahead. 23 3y Mr. Wright: i l 24 3. Mr. Hayt, has the Eagle-Picher Company, in the period fro^ 25 1937 to 19^3, suggested to dealers the resale prices at which | N39105.03 rlO | they sell Hammer and Eagle brands of white lead in-oil? 2A That Is right. I MR. HIKDS: I object, your Honor, on the ground It 4 Is immaterial. It has been repeatedly held there is nothing 5 illegal about suggesting retail prices, as long as there is 6 no agreement. 7 MR. WRIGHT: Your Honor, the only purpose of the & question is to lay the foundation for the question which was 9 objected to. 10 TRIAL EXAMINER NORWOOD: Objection overruled. Read If the question and answer. 12 (Question and answer read by the reporter.) 13 3y Mr. Wright: 14 5 In other words, they have suggested the resale price? 15 \ Yes. 16 } Was there a similar differential between the suggested 17 resale prices as to the two brands? m1 Ho. 19 2 In other words, the dealer was requested to resell the 20 [earner brand at the same price? 21 i He was not requested, 22 i Required? 23 L He was not required. 24 i Was It suggested by Eagle-Flcher that he resell at the 25 prices? 1556 A That Is right. <5 Mr. ffayt, does the Eagle-Pieher Company supply statistics j : cm production and shipments of lead pigment to the Lead 1 Industries Association? A Yes .| Q Do they receive from the Lead Industries Association statistics compiled as to the whole Industry shoving total shipments and sales? A A summarized report. !1 n n N 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 ! ji'Q Sc you were able to ascertain your exact position {with reference to the remainder of the industry? IA That is right. j q I call your attention to Commission's Exhibit 669, which has been identified as statistics showing the percentI ' age of production by the various lead producers of both jdry white lead and white lead in-oil for the years 1938, 1939, 1940 and 1941, produced by Mr. Wormser of the Lead Industries Association. The figures in the column under "Eagle-richer" appear to be combined figures of dry and in oil percentages. Can you state the approximate percentage of production of the Eagle-Picher Company of white lead in-oil for those four years? A You mean our percentage of the total business? Q Yes, sir. A Well, I feel, as has been said before in this case, that that is confidential information in the presence of competitors. I would just as soon state it without the competitors: present. TRIAL EXAMINER NORWOOD: I think he asked you if, from those figures, you could compute that percentage? THE WITNESS: I could conpute It, yes, sir. By Mr. Wright: Q Mr. Hayt, I call your attention to Commission's Exhibit I ! ' 155S <I 665 and ask you if you recognize that document, which has I been identified as being obtained by Mr. Dunn of the Federal Trade Commission from you, showing your dollar volume of sales of both white lead in-oil and dry white lead in 1940. \ A Yes, that is my handwriting. Q At that time you apparently had no reluctance to state these figures. I A To whom. Q To the representative of the Federal Trade Commission. A I still have no reluctance to state it to the Federal Trade Commission. TRIAL EXAMINER NORWOOD: You do not want to tell the world ftbout it? S THE WITNESS: That is right. I By Mr. Wright* I Q Do I Understand then that you refuse to state the per centage of production of Eagle-Picher during those years to the total of the industry? A lot to you. MR. WOOD: If the witness is requested by the Trial Examiner to give the information he is instructed by counsel to answer the question. 24 MR. WRIGHT: Your Honor, I request that the wi tness 25 be instructed to answer the question. Certainly it is relevant material and competent to the issues in this case, which Involve specific charges relating to the percentages of production of the various respondents. TRIAL EXAMINER NORWOOD: Read the question. ! (The question was read by the reporter.) TRIAL EXAMINER NORWOOD: I will ask the counsel i j to reframe the question now that he wants to ask, that is, the question that elicits this information that ho wants to ask about, so as to b6 clear. 'Ey.;Hr* Wrights y. Q Mr* Hayt, will you please state the percentage of the ! i | | ! production and sales of the Eagle-Picher Company of white lead in-oil to the total for the industryduring 1938? 1 i; ; ! v TRIAL EXAMINER NORWOOD: Now, that is the question j that the witness expresses a reluctance to answer. I will jj ; hear from the counsel as toitsrelevancy. i j MR. WRIGHT: Well, your Honor, the complaint in this matter charges the National Lead Company specifically with monopolising the industry and charges the respondents as a group with a combination in restraint of trade. The complaint makes positive allegations as to the percentages of control by each of these various respondents. It is apparent: that we cannot get at the heart of the issue raised by that portion of the complaint without obtaining this information from these respondents. LC4.- 15^0 TRIAL EXAMINER NORWOOD: I see. MR. WEIGHT: As was testified yesterday by a repre sentative of the Bureau of Mines these statistics have been turned over to that Bureau as confidential and they refuse to disclose th^rn without the consent of the respondents. TRIAt EXAMINER NORWOOD: I will Instruct the witness jto answer the question. THE Wit n e s s * What was the year Involved? MR. WRIGHT: 1938. MR. WOOD: The product was white lead in-oil? 1 MR. WEIGHT: The product was white lead in-oil. THE WITNESS: I do not know that I can answer specifically fok* that year, but 1 can tell you approximately. y Mr. Wright; That will be sufficient. i It was probably about 15 or 16 percent of the total. What about the year 1937? j I 1 You are drawing fine lines, as far as my memory is conjerned. I would say approximately the same. ; I Would it be fair to say, Mr. Hayt, that it has been tpproxlmately that percentage? i Yes. I Over what period of time? i I would say it varied probably from between 15 and 20 tercent over a period perhaps from 1930 to the present time. t j j ' 1561 Q 1 see. What about with reference to dry white lead, basic carbonate? A About 10 percent plus or minus 2 percent either way. q Would that he over the sane period? A Yea. Q Proa 1930 on? A Yes. q Would you know those figures In the same way with reference to basic sulphate? A X have nothing to do with the sale of basic sulphate. q Would you know those approximate percentages as to dry red lead and red lead in-oil and keg products? A They are such minor factors in our total sales that it would be pretty difficult to give you any figures on those. Q Does Eagle-Picher also produce blue lead? A Yes. Q is it the only producer of blue lead? A I believe at the present time they are the only pro ducer . They have not always been. Q Is orange mineral sold as a keg product? . i A There is no*sale for orange mineral In small packages. Q Where does the Eegle-Plcher Company obtain the corroding lead that It uses In its white lead production in Cincinnati? A Most of it comes from the TJ.S. Smelting and Refining at 1562 East Chicago, Indiana. Q In other words. Eagle acquires its corroding lead on the , open market, is thht correct? j A That is correct. Q Eagle is also a large producer of pig lead, is it not? A I would not sky a large producer in relation to the general field. q its production of lead is in the dry state field, is it? A That is right:. Q In and around Joplin? I! A Ya, in the TML-state District of Missouri, Kansas n and Oklahoma. 13 Q Mr* Hayt, you mentioned that prior to the inauguration 14 of the none method you sold on warehouse and differential or IS equalization points. I show you Commission's Exhibits j j 16 513-C and -D which are headed "List of Differentials 17 and Points to which They Apply in Territory East of the i f J ia Mississippi"; and D, "in Territory Vest of the Mississippi." 19 Is that the type of point differential that was employed 20 prior to the use of the zone method of Eagle-Picher? 21 A I do not recall ever seeing that document before. 22 When the job and equalization point system was In effect 23 I was not in the white lead division, so I know about that 24 only by hearsay, but my recollection is that the set-up was very much mere Involved than is indicated there.