Document baodzrGJejoO5Mb0ZoEB1DMEg

FILE NAME: General Electric (GE) DATE: 2004 DOC#: GE090 DOCUMENT DESCRIPTION: Legal - Deposition of Marjorie Drucker Vol I Page 1 1 2 SUPREME COURT: ALL COUNTIES 3 WITHIN THE STATE OF NEW YORK 4 5 IN RE: NEW YORK STATE 6 ASBESTOS LITIGATION 7 8 DEPOSITION UNDER 9 ORAL EXAMINATION 10 OF 11 MARJORIE A. DRUCKER 12 13 14 This Document Applies To: 15 FRANK CAMPA - Index No.: 109449/03 16 ALEX RENOW - Index No.: 106444/03 17 RONALD SPINELLI Index No.: 109214/03 18 MARVIN ZATZ - Index No.: 103644/03 19 20 21 PRIORITY-ONE COURT REPORTING SERVICES, INC. 22 899 Manor Road 23 Staten Island, NY 10314 24 (718) 983-1234 25 PRIORITY-ONE COURT REPORTING, INC. (718) 983-1234 I 1 Page 2 2 ! 3 4 Transcript o f the deposition of the 5 witness, called for Oral Examination in the 6 above-captioned matter, said deposition being 7 taken pursuant to Federal Rules of Civil 8 Procedure by and before ELEANOR SEKULIC, a 9 Notary Public and Shorthand Reporter, at the 10 Offices o f SEDGWICK, DETERT, MORAN & ARNOLD, 11 ESQS., 125 Broad Street, 39th Floor, New York, 12 New York, on Thursday, June 3,2004, commencing 13 at 9:55 a.m. 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 INDEX TO WITNESSES: WITNESS: EXAMINATION: PAGE: Marjorie A. Drucker Mr. Kristal - Direct 6 INDEX NUMBER: P-Drucker-1 P-Drucker-2 P-Drucker-3 P-Drucker-4 P-Drucker-5 P-Drucker-6 P-Drucker-7 TO EXHIBITS: DESCRIPTION: PAGE: 2-Page Letter 5/19/04 6 Resume 122 Asbestos Library Catalog 180 Various Documents 216 Various Documents 216 Videotape 226 Handwritten Note 227 INFORMATION AND/OR DOCUMENTS REQUESTED: 10 REQUEST: PAGE/LINE: Copy of Newspaper Column 128/3 Copy of Newspaper Article 129/25 List of Contacts 15 5/2 12 List 181/16 GE's Answers to Interrogatories 185/4 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 4 1 32 APPEARANCES: WEITZ f t LUXENBERG, PC 180 Mniden Lane, 17th Floor 4 New York, New York 10038 5 By: JERRY KRISTAL, ESQ. Attorneys for the Plaintiffs 6 SPEZIALI, GREENWALD ft HAWKINS 1081 Winslow Road, Box 1086 7 WUlianutown, New Jersey 08094 By. DAVID SPEZIALI S Attorney for the Defendant General Electric 9 SIDLEY, AUSTIN, BROWN & WOOD, LLP Bank One Plaza 10 10 S. Dearborn Street Chicago, Illinois 60603 11 By: TIMOTHY E. KAPSHANDY, ESQ Attorneys for the Defendant General Electric 12 MALABY, CARLISLE & BRADLEY, LLC 13 ISO Broadway New York, New York 10038 14 By. MICHELLE DULUC, ESQ. Attorneys for the Defendants K15 Viacom, Weil-McLain and Warren Pumps FLEMMING, ZULACK f t WILLIAMSON, ESQS. One Liberty Plaza 17 New York, New York B y SCOTT EMERY, ESQ. 18 Attorneys for the Defendant Goodyear 19 ANDERSON, KILL f t OL1CK, PC 1251 Avenue o f the Americas 20 N ew York, N ew York 10020 By: GARY CASIMIR, ESQ. 21 Attorneys for the Defendants Amchem and Union Carbide 22 PEHLIVANJAN f t BRAATEN, LLC 23 Paynters Ridge Office Park 2430 Route 34 24 Manasquan, New Jersey 07836 B y CLAUDIA SOLIS, ESQ., O f Counsel 25 Attorneys for the Defendant Dresser-Rand Page 3 Page 5 1 2 3 4 STIPULATIONS 5 IT IS HEREBY STIPULATED AND AGREED by and 6 among the attorneys for the respective parties 7 herein that the sealing, filing and 8 certification o f the within Examination Before 9 Trial be waived; that all objections, except as 1 0 to form, are reserved to the time o f trial; 11 That the transcript may be signed before 12 any Notary Public with the same force and effect 13 as if signed before a Clerk or Judge of the 14 Court; 15 That this Examination Before Trial may be 16 utilized for ail purposes as provided by the 17 CPLR; 18 That all rights provided to all parties by 19 the CPLR shall not be deemed waived and the 20 appropriate sections o f the CPLR shall be 21 controlling with respect thereto. 22 23 24 25 PRIORITY-ONE COURT REPORTING, INC. (718) 983-1234 2 (Pages 2 to 5) Page 6 Page 8 : 1 M aijorie A. Drucker - Direct 1 Marjorie A. Drucker - Direct 2 M A R J O R I E A. D R U C K E R , having been 2 that case in it? 3 first duly sworn according to law by die Court 3 A. Well, specifically with regard to 4 Reporter, testifies as follows: 4 this case, I don't have a file. 5 5 Q. Okay. Do you maintain billing 6 DIRECT EXAMINATION BY 6 records? 7 MR. KRISTAL: 7 A. As part o f my practice, yes, I keep 8 Q. Good morning, Ms. Drucker. How are 8 track o f my time and I maintain records for 9 you? 9 billing purposes. 10 A. Good morning. Very well, thank you. 10 Q. Okay. So you have a billing record 11 Q. As I told you a few minutes ago, my 11 for this case, or these cases? 12 name is Jerry Kristal. I represent Campa, Renow, 12 A. As far as specifically with these 13 Zatz and Roth who have brought cases alleging 13 cases, I have not broken out really specifically 14 that their mesotheliomas were caused by asbestos 14 directed to these matters. 15 exposure and sued a number o f different 15 Q. Okay. When were you first contacted 16 companies. I assume you understand that? 16 by GE in terms o f whether o r not you want to be 17 A. Yes. 17 engaged as a legal consultant with respect to 18 Q. Let me take care o f some 18 the subject matters that you're going to be 19 housekeeping. I'm marking as Drucker 1 the May 19 testifying to in these cases, when were you 2 0 19th, 2004 disclosure o f Ms. Drucker as a 20 generally first approached? 21 witness. 21 A. Toward die latter part o f September 22 (Whereupon, Two-Page Letter 5/19/01 22 o f last year I was contacted by Mr. Kapshandy 23 is m arked Plaintiffs Drucker Exhibit 1 For 23 and spoke to him in general about similar issues 24 Identification.) 24 in regard to cases such as these. 25 Q. Ms. Drucker, have you seen that 25 Q. Do you have a file? I'm sorry. Page 7 Page 9 : 1 Marjorie A. Drucker - Direct 1 Marjorie A. Drucker -D irect 2 before? 2 A. Excuse me. In matters related to 3 (Whereupon, the witness peruses the 3 asbestos. 4 document.) 4 Q. And who was the defendant, GE? 5 A. Yes, I have. 5 A. Yes, that's what was my 6 Q. Okay. When was the first time you saw 6 understanding, that these matters would be 7 that, or a copy of that? 8 A. I recall seeing a copy o f this about 7 related to GE. 8 Q. Okay. And what was your understanding 9 two weeks ago. 9 as to what you were being asked to do or take 10 Q. Okay. When were you first contacted 10 part in back in September o f 2003 when you were 11 in these four cases? 12 A. With regard specifically to these 13 four cases, they were brought to my attention 14 about two weeks ago. 15 Q. Can you give me a date? Do you have a 16 file on this case? 17 A. N o, I don't. 18 Q. Do you maintain any kind o f file when 19 you do legal consulting for a particular case? 20 A. What do you mean by "any kind o f 11 first contacted? 12 A. In general, I was asked to look into 13 historical aspects o f industrial hygiene, 14 state-of-the-art matters and asbestos with 15 relation to GE. 16 Q. Do you have a file for that work? 17 A. No, I don't have a file for that. 18 Q. Okay. Have you been recording the 19 hours? 20 A. Let me just say that with regard to 21 file"? 22 Q. Well, when you're contacted and you 21 certain aspects o f the broad aspect of work that 22 I did I have created some types o f records, but 23 agree to consult on a legal matter, do you have 24 a folder, a manila folder, or redwell, some kind 25 o f system in which you keep information about 23 I don't know what you mean by the broad term 24 "file." 25 Q. Fair enough. PRIORITY-ONE COURT REPORTING, INC. (718) 983-1234 3 (Pages 6 to 9) Page 10 Page 12 ; 1 Marjorie A. Drucker - Direct 1 Marjorie A. Drucker - Direct 2 A. I have created certain records. 2 confused. 1thought you said as to GE. 3 Q. Okay. 3 Q. Let me back up. Do you draw a 4 A. Since beginning this project. 4 distinction between historical aspect and 5 Q. Have you been paid by GE for any work 5 state-of-the-art matters, or are they 6 on this project yet? 6 synonymous? 7 A. Yes, I have. 7 A. It's a general question, and it would 8 Q. Okay. And did you bill them by the 8 depend on the specific question posed to me. 9 hour? 9 Q. Let me back up further. I asked you 10 A. Yes, I bill by the hour at my 10 what the scope o f the project was, and I think 11 standard rate. 11 my notes are accurate. You said the historical 12 Q. Okay. And that is? 12 aspects o f industrial hygiene, state-of-the-art 13 A. M y standard rate is $250 an hour for 13 matters and asbestos with respect to GE. Is that 14 preparation, $300 for testimony. 14 the scope of the project in terms o f GE that you 15 Q. Have you given any testimony 15 were asked about? 16 previously with respect to the subject matters 16 A. Well, those are certain aspects of 17 that GE had asked you to look into, the 17 the project. In general, I was asked to look at 18 historical aspects o f industrial hygiene, 18 G E and non-GE documents to determine their 19 state-of-the-art matters and asbestos with 19 knowledge o f the hazards o f asbestos. 20 respect to GE? 20 Q. What is your understanding o f the 21 A. W ith regard to this specific project 21 scope o f the project that GE asked you to look 2 2 since September o f '03, no. 2 2 into, the entire scope since September '03? 23 Q. Have you ever testified about those 23 A. The entire scope was to look at GE 24 subjects before? 24 and non-GE documents to determine, to address 25 A. Could you read them back, please? 25 GE's knowledge of the hazards of asbestos. Page 11 1 Marjorie A. Drucker - Direct 2 Q. Sure? 3 MR. SPEZIALI: To clear your 4 confusion, if you include for GE in the tag 5 along to the question I think the answer 6 will be no, so you may be confused. If you 7 want to drop out the GE part, you'll 8 probably get to where you want to go. 9 Q. Have you ever testified about any of 10 those matters, historical aspects o f industrial 11 hygiene, state-of-the-art matters and/or asbestos 12 with respect to GE? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. Previous to September '03? 15 A. Those matters being specifically what 16 you ju st read, those three statements? 17 Q. Yes. 18 A. Yes. 19 MR. SPEZIALI: Can I put a 20 clarification? Did you understand him to 21 say as to GE? 22 MR. KR1STAL: No, 1 wasn't asking as 23 toG E . 24 MR. SPEZIALI: I thought you said that 25 at the end o f your sentence. Maybe I'm Page 13 1 Marjorie A. Drucker - Direct 2 Q. Anything else? 3 A. In general, I'd say yes, what the 4 scope was. 5 Q. Okay. How about specifically? 6 A. I don't understand the question. 7 Q. Well, you said generally that's what 8 the scope was. You said generally that's what 9 the scope was, and I want to be as specific as 10 you can get as to what the scope o f the project 11 was? 12 A. In general, that's the scope. If you 13 ask me questions, I can answ er them. 14 Q. Are there any other specific topics 15 other than looking at GE and non-GE documents to 16 address GE's knowledge o f asbestos hazards? 17 A. I don't understand the question. 18 Q. Okay. I'm trying to find out what it 19 was you were asked to do by GE in September '03. 20 Are you with me so far? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. Okay. And you said that you were 23 asked to look at GE and non-GE documents to 24 address GE's knowledge o f asbestos hazards. Did 25 you say that? PRIORITY-ONE COURT REPORTING, INC. (718) 983-1234 4 (Pages 10 to 13) Page 14 Page 16 f 1 Marjorie A. Drucker - Direct 1 Marjorie A. Drucker - Direct 2 A. Yes, I did. 2 A. Yes, those matters had to do with 3 Q. Okay. Anything else? 3 asbestos. 4 A. Well, if other things are posed to 4 Q. Can you tell me what you mean by the 5 me, it's possible. 5 historical aspects o f industrial hygiene? 6 Q. I'm asking if anything else is to be 6 A. Industrial hygiene as a profession 7 posed to you? 7 has evolved over periods o f time, and, at 8 A. Can I finish my answer, please? 8 various periods o f time there were different 9 Q. I want you to answer the question. 9 states o f knowledge with regard to the 10 The question is, was it your understanding that 10 recognition, evaluation and control o f various 11 the project included anything else? 11 types o f hazards in the workplace and 12 A. My understanding is that it may 12 non-workplace environments. 13 depending on what was posed to me over different 13 Q. Were you done? 14 periods o f tim e, but, in general, I'd say that 14 A. Yes. 15 w as a general scope o f work for the project. 15 Q. Okay. When in your opinion was it 16 Q. When you say "it may," has it to date 16 first recognized in the industrial hygiene 17 involved anything else? 17 community that asbestos was a hazardous 18 A. Has it to date? 18 substance? 19 Q. The project involved anything other 19 A. In the 1930s it was recognized that 20 than looking at GE and non-GE documents to 20 high levels o f asbestos dust could be hazardous 21 address GE's knowledge o f asbestos hazards? 21 and could cause the fibrosis inducing condition 22 A. I would say in general the project 2 2 asbestosis. 23 has been within that scope. 23 Q. It was recognized in the industrial 24 Q. Okay. Is there anything you can think 24 hygiene community that asbestosis could be 25 o f that has not been within that scope o f what 25 potentially permanently disabling in the 1930s? 5 Page 15 Page 17 ' 1 M aijorieA.Drucker -Direct 1 Maijorie A. Drucker - Direct 2 you've been asked to do to date, not what you 2 A. When you say "it was recognized"? 3 may be asked to do at some point in the future? 3 Q. Was the fact that asbestosis could 4 A. The best way I can answer is to say 4 potentially be permanently disabling recognized 5 that, in general, it's within that scope. 5 in the industrial hygiene community in the 6 Q. Have you ever testified as to that 6 1930s? 7 subject, GE and non-GE documents to address GE's 7 A. I would say that in general in the 8 knowledge of asbestos hazards? 8 1930s it was known by the medical and scientific 9 A. That subject being GE's knowledge? 9 community that high levels o f asbestos dust 10 Q. Yes. 10 could cause the fibrosis condition asbestosis. 11 A. No, I have not testified on scope, as 11 Q. Okay. Tell me what your understanding 12 I stated, on this GE project. 12 is o f what was known about asbestosis in the 13 Q. Okay. Have you ever testified about 13 1930s by the medical and scientific community? 14 historical aspects o f industrial hygiene 14 A. The medical and scientific community 15 generally? 15 would have been aware in the 1930s that high 16 A. Yes. 16 levels o f asbestos dust could cause a condition, 17 Q. When was the first such time you did 17 in this case, asbestosis. 18 that? 18 Q. And what did that community know in 19 A. If I recall, that would go back to 19 the 1930s as to what asbestosis was? 20 the early to mid-1980s. 20 A. I think in general the medical and 21 Q. And was the testimony with respect to 21 scientific literature would have been aware that 22 asbestos? 22 high levels of asbestos could cause asbestosis, 23 A. I'm going to correct that. I would 24 say the early to mid-1990s. 23 which is a fibrotic lung condition and which can 24 lead to a disabling condition and ultimately 25 Q. Okay. 25 possibly death. PRIORITY-ONE COURT REPORTING, INC. (718) 983-1234 5 (Pages 14 to 17) Page 18 Page 20 5 1 Marjorie A. Drucker - Direct 1 Marjorie A. Drucker - Direct 2 Q. Okay. When you say "high levels," 2 dust. 3 what do you mean? 3 Q. Were you done? 4 A. Well, it depends on what time period 4 A. Yes. 5 that we're looking at. 5 Q. And, therefore, five million 6 Q. Fair enough. You mentioned high 6 particles per cubic foot means total dust? 7 levels in the context o f the 1930s, right? 7 MR. SPEZIALI: You're talking about 8 A. Yes. 8 Dreesen, aren't you? 9 Q. What do you mean? 9 MR. KRISTAL: Yes. 10 A. Going back to the 1930s, I'd say by 10 A. Well, with regard to Dreesen, that 11 the late 1930s, such as for this study that was 11 would have been dust, total dust containing 12 done by Dreesen, it was thought that high levels 12 asbestos. 13 o f asbestos dust, meaning those levels in excess 13 Q. Okay. So if you take your impinger 14 o f five million particles per cubic foot could 14 and you collect -- 15 possibly lead to asbestosis. 15 A. They did some break-outs, I should 16 Q. Five million particles per cubic foot 16 say, about asbestos. 17 o f what? 17 Q. I'm ju st trying to find out when you 18 A. Well, again, going back to the 18 use the term five million particles per cubic 19 Dreesen study, the level that they concluded 19 foot o f asbestos dust if you're talking about 2 0 that was file safe level was five million 20 five million asbestos fibers or five million 21 particles per cubic foot o f asbestos dust. 21 particles o f total dust in the sample or 22 Q. And what do you mean by "asbestos 22 something else? 23 dust"? 23 A. According to Dreesen, it would have 24 A. By "asbestos dust," 1mean dust that 24 been five million particles o f total dust in 25 is asbestos. 25 that type o f a sample, meaning by the Page 19 1 Marjorie A. Drucker - Direct 2 Q. Hundred percent asbestos? 3 A. There's been over the years, I'd say 4 that there's been some different changes of 5 thought with regard to that. Some authors 6 believe, concluded it was asbestos dust, others 7 concluded it may be dust containing asbestos. 8 Those will vary in the literature over time. 9 MR. SPEZIALI: He's asking about 10 Dreesen in the thirties now. Just to 11 expedite it, he wants to know about Dreesen 12 now in the thirties. 13 A. Could you ask the question again, 14 please? 15 Q. Sure. I'm trying to find out if the 16 five million particles per cubic foot o f air you 17 said is asbestos dust, I'm asking you, in the 18 1930s, is it your opinion that meant hundred 19 percent asbestos dust, any percent asbestos 2 0 dust, what did it mean at that time frame? 21 A. With regard to the Dreesen study in 2 2 '38, they were studying textile mills, and, the 23 textile mill had extremely high concentrations 24 o f asbestos in the dust and they used an 25 impingement method which didn't measure total * "ST Page 21 1 Maijorie A. Drucker - Direct 2 impingement method. 3 Q. When you used the phrase medical and 4 scientific literature a couple questions back, 5 is that different than industrial hygiene 6 literature, or is that different than the 7 industrial hygiene community, or was that 8 industrial hygiene community part of "medical 9 and scientific"? 10 A. Generally these are broad terms, but 11 I would say in general the medical and 12 scientific literature would have encompassed the 13 industrial hygiene literature. 14 Q. Did you need an epidemiological study 15 to make the determination that asbestos exposure 16 caused asbestosis historically? 17 A. I don't understand the question. 18 Q. Okay. W hen was it first known, the 19 very first date that you would say it was known 20 in die medical and scientific literature that 21 asbestos could cause any disease? 22 A. In the early 1900s there were some 23 case reports reported in the literature where 24 some physicians reported what they called cases 25 of, related to cases that we now call 6 (Pages 18 to 21) PRIORITY-ONE COURT REPORTING, INC. (718) 983-1234 Page 22 Page 24 ; 1 M arjorieA.Drucker -Direct 1 Marjorie A. Drucker -D irect 2 asbestosis. 2 any other industry that asbestos exposure could 3 Q. So that's the first date by which it 3 cause disease in die 1930s, or, are you saying \ 4 was known in the medical and scientific 4 it was limited exclusively to the textile 5 community that asbestos could cause any kind o f 5 industry? 6 disease? 6 A. I'm here to talk in general about the 7 A. In which it was known, "it" what? 7 United States Navy and asbestos, and, as far as 8 Q. The fact that asbestos could cause 8 the other industries, that's not really in 9 disease. 9 general what I was prepared to discuss. 1 10 A. Well, as I said, you asked before 10 Q. You have to understand something j 11 when it was first known, and there were some 11 because I'm not trying to give you a hard time. 12 cases reported in the early 1900s from high 12 I'm coming in here in my opinion relatively | 13 levels o f exposure to asbestos that indicated 13 blind because I don't have a report from you f 14 that asbestos, that asbestosis may occur. 14 saying what your opinions are. I have some very 15 Q. So that's when it was first known 15 broad statements included in Exhibit 1. So when 16 that asbestos could cause disease, early 1900s? 16 you say you m ay be testifying about the 17 A. Well, I think that there was some 17 historical aspects o f industrial hygiene, I'm 18 case reports. 18 asking these questions. I'm not trying to give 19 Q. That's what I'm trying - 19 you a hard time. I'm ju st trying to find out 20 A. I don't think in general it was 20 what you may testify. 21 entirely known until certain studies were 21 MR. KRISTAL: Dave, is that accurate 22 performed. 22 in terms o f the scope o f the testimony? ? 23 Q. Okay. When was the first such study 23 MR. SPEZIALI: For these four cases " 24 that was performed in which it became entirely 24 she's going to talk about the United States 25 known that asbestos could cause disease? 25 Navy knowledge, I mean, as I understand Page 23 1 Marjorie A. Drucker - Direct 1 2 A. I don't think it was ever known with 2 3 total certainty that asbestos could absolutely 3 4 cause certain types of diseases. There were 4 5 certain studies that evolved over time which led 5 6 the medical and scientific community to certain 6 7 conclusions. 7 8 Q. And by the 1930s it was concluded by 8 9 the medical and scientific community that high 9 10 levels o f asbestos exposure could cause 10 11 asbestosis? 11 12 A. By the late 1930s it was known that 12 13 high levels o f asbestos in certain types of 13 14 industries such as in textile mills could cause 14 15 asbestosis. 15 16 Q. Any other industry? 16 17 A. That was the --by the late 1930s, in 17 18 general, textile mills were studied. 18 19 Q. I'm asking you if --I'm sorry. Go 19 20 ahead. 20 21 A. And high levels o f asbestos in 21 22 textile mills were thought to cause asbestosis, 22 23 and, again, I'm talking about levels in excess 23 24 o f five million particles per cubic foot. 24 25 Q. And I'm asking you, was it known in 25 i Page 25 \ Marjorie A. Drucker - Direct Plaintiffs' theory of the case. MR. KRISTAL: I just want to know - MR. SPEZIALI: She will address that j issue o f the case by which had GE put some label on turbines the Navy would have rushed to arms and changed the way it would have addressed military issues in this case. She's going to address what the Navy knew or didn't know, and, obviously, as you and I both know, obviously the Navy's knowledge is part o f the published historical scientific literature, so, clearly, that literature to the extent we say historic is going to come into play. MR. KRISTAL: I understand. But, generally, it's not going to be starting from, you know, it's going to be specific to the Navy? MR. SPEZIALI: Government knowledge, yes. MR. KRISTAL: That's fine. M R. SPEZIALI: I've got Tom Howard. He'll do the other problem. Tm not looking PRIORITY-ONE COURT REPORTING, INC. (718) 983-1234 7 (Pages 22 to 25) Page 26 Page 28 ]| 1 Marjorie A. Drucker - Direct 1 Marjorie A. Drucker - Direct 2 to bring every witness in and repeat the 2 that high levels o f asbestos exposure to cause 3 history o f state-of-the-art literature. 3 asbestosis? 4 Q. When was it first known by the United 4 A. I'd have to refer to a document list. 5 States Navy, in your opinion, that asbestos 5 Q. Okay. 6 could cause asbestos disease o f any kind? 6 MR. KRISTAL: Do you have that? 7 A. I would say in 1922 the US Navy knew 7 MR. SPEZIALI: Tim, do you have the 8 that high levels o f asbestos could cause 8 exhibit list? 9 asbestos-related disease, asbestosis. 9 MR. KAPSHANDY: I may have it on my 10 Q. And what is the basis o f that 10 computer. We don't have a hard copy here. I 11 opinion? 11 may be able to find it. It was among the 12 A. The basis o f that opinion is some 12 materials that she reviewed. We didn't 13 studies in the literature that I reviewed over 13 bring hard copies. 14 time, and, also, that in 1922 the Navy sent some 14 MR. SPEZIALI: It's on the CD. 15 people to the Harvard School o f Public Health 15 MR. KRISTAL: I'm not understanding. 16 for training. 16 Is there a list that I can show the witness 17 Q. With respect to asbestos? 17 now from which she can tell me what she's 18 A. With respect to general occupational 18 relying on the 1922 article? 19 medicine, and, it would have been further things 19 MR. KAPSHANDY: I gave it to you 20 such as non-asbestos. 20 before the deposition. 21 Q. Okay. Tell me the studies and 21 MR. KRISTAL: That's Power Point. 2 2 literature upon which you're basing your opinion 22 MR. KAPSHANDY: There's an extensive 23 that in 1922 the US Navy knew high levels o f 23 list. 24 asbestos exposure to cause asbestosis? 24 MR. SPEZIALI: Is it on the CD? 25 A. Some o f the studies include an article 25 MR. KAPSHANDY: No. That's just the Page 27 Page 29 ; 1 Marjorie A. Drucker - Direct 2 by Brown. 3 Q. Anything else? 4 A. I've reviewed many m aterials over 5 time, even going up to the forties in the 6 Fisher. 7 Q. I'm only interested in what you're 8 basing your opinion on that the Navy knew in 9 1922. That's the sole scope o f my question. 10 Other than the Brown article, is there anything 11 else you base your opinion on that the Navy knew 12 in 1922 that high levels o f asbestos exposure 13 could cause asbestosis? 14 A. In several o f the documents that I 15 reviewed the history o f industrial hygiene and 16 occupational medicine in the Navy had been 17 discussed, and, I would have to refer to a list 18 o f documents, but that was the date that it's my 19 understanding that the Navy sent people to the 2 0 Harvard School o f Public Health for training, 21 which would include their study o f asbestos. 22 Q. Okay. W hat documents are you talking 23 about that had that history o f industrial 24 hygiene in the N avy upon which you're relying 25 for your opinion that in 1922 the US Navy knew 1 Marjorie A. Drucker - Direct 2 Alice Hamilton documents. 3 MR. KRISTAL: Have you given me this 4 morning which you think contains what Ms. 5 Drucker relied on? 6 MR. KAPSHANDY: Not this morning, 7 previously. 8 MR. SPEZIALI: Is it possible to pull 9 that up? 10 MR. KAPSHANDY: I'm looking for it. 11 MR. KRISTAL: Thank you. I'll move on 12 while you're looking for it. I didn't 13 understand what you were saying. 14 Q. When did you first come to an opinion 15 with respect to the United States Navy's 16 knowledge about the hazards o f asbestos? 17 MR. SPEZIALI: Can I ask, you mean as 18 of 1922 or any time? 19 MR. KRISTAL: Any time o f the US Navy 20 and knowledge o f asbestos. 21 A. I worked for the United States Navy 22 and I knew they had a long-standing program on 23 occupational exposure and relating to asbestos, 24 and, more recently, I had an opportunity to 25 review these articles and determined that in * 'SUE 8 (Pages 26 to 29) PRIORITY-ONE COURT REPORTING, INC. (718) 983-1234 Page 30 Page 32 ;! 1 Marjorie A. Drucker -Direct 1 Marjorie A. Drucker -D irect ] 2 1922 they were aware o f the hazards o f asbestos. 2 the article. 3 Q. When was it, when you say "more 3 Q. Okay. So you can't do that without 4 recently," since September '03? 4 referring to the article? 5 A. I would say since September '0 3 1 had 5 A. To answer your question as completely 6 recently reviewed those articles, although, I 6 as I can I feel that I should look at the 7 may have seen them in the past. 1 had worked 7 article. 8 with the Navy. 8 Q. How about answering it incompletely? 9 Q. When was the first time you read the 9 A. I don't think I should do that. 10 Captain Brown article? 10 Q. Okay. So you need the article to 11 A. Over the course o f my career I've 11 answer the question? 12 read hundreds o f articles regarding asbestos, 12 A. I would like to refer to the article i 13 and I m ay have seen the Brown article in the 13 to answer your question completely. 14 past. I do recently recall having seen it within 14 Q. W ell, how about incompletely? Til 15 the past several months since September. 15 take any portion o f an answer without looking at 16 Q. Okay. W hat leads you to say in the 16 the article. "t 17 Brown article that Brown was talking about high 17 A. I think you want my best testimony 18 levels o f asbestos exposure? 18 so... 19 A. I don't think that's what I said 19 Q. I want anything, anything that you 20 before. We were talking about -- 2 0 can recall from the Brown article that talks 21 Q. If you didn't say that before, is it 21 about high levels o f asbestos exposure as 2 2 your belief that in 1922 the US Navy knew that 2 2 opposed to any other level of asbestos exposure? 23 asbestos exposure to cause asbestosis? 23 A. To answer your question I would like 24 A. Yes, I said before that in 1922 the 24 to look at the article. \ 25 US Navy w ould be aware that high levels o f 25 Q. Fair enough. Brown was not talking ; Page 31 Page 33 ? 1 Marjorie A. Drucker - Direct 1 Marjorie A. Drucker -Direct 2 asbestos exposure could cause asbestosis. 2 about textiles; is that fair to say? 3 Q. And you said one o f the bases o f that 3 A. Again, I would like to look at the 4 opinion was the Brown article? 4 article. 5 A. Yes, I said that in general some of 5 Q. Okay. Was Brown talking about the 6 the history o f the Navy and the Navy's program 6 textile industry? 7 was included in the Brown article and that there 7 A. I would like to look at the article. 8 are other articles that I would have to refer to 8 Q. Do you have any idea what asbestos 9 a list for. 9 products Brown was talking about that could lead 10 Q. And Pm asking you what in the Brown 10 to asbestosis? 11 article itself leads you to believe that the 11 A. To answer your question I would refer 12 Navy was talking about the high levels of 12 to the article. 13 asbestos exposure as opposed to other levels o f 13 Q. Okay. Are there any other studies at 14 asbestos exposure causing asbestosis? 14 the time, meaning 1922, o r any other articles at 15 A. I would have to look at the article. 15 the time, meaning 1922, upon which you're basing 16 Q. Do you have the article? 16 your opinion about the U S Navy's knowledge in 17 A. No, not with me. 17 1922, as opposed to some book chapter or article 18 Q. We'll have to continue this on some 18 or review by the Navy written years later 19 other day, I imagine. 19 looking back? Do you understand what I'm asking? 20 As you sit here today, you are unable 20 A. No. 21 to tell me what it is in the Brown article that 21 Q. Okay. I'm trying to find out if 2 2 leads you to believe that Brown was talking 2 2 there's anything contemporaneous with the 1920s 23 about high levels o f asbestos exposure causing 23 other than the Brown article on which you're 24 asbestosis? 24 relying for your opinion that the Navy knew in 25 A. To answer your question I refer to 25 1922 that asbestos could cause asbestosis? PRIORITY-ONE COURT REPORTING, INC. (718) 983-1234 9 (Pages 30 to 33) Page 34 Page 36 1 Maijorie A. Drucker - Direct 1 Marjorie A. Drucker - Direct 2 A. Yes, as I said before, there were 2 articles for background in context o f which I 3 several articles, and, for that, I'd have to 4 look at the master list and cite them for you. 3 had reviewed over the course o f my career, and, 4 many o f which I actually had in my own library. 5 Q . Okay. So and I'm not talking about 5 Q. What did you do to research the issue 6 articles that are looking back, Tm talking 6 o f when the Navy first knew about the hazards of 7 about in the 1920s. Do you understand that? 7 asbestos? Did you go on-line? Did you go to the 8 A. Ido. 8 library? Did you go to some archive somewhere? ; 9 Q. Okay. Do you know the authors of 9 Did you ask somebody to do any o f those things? 10 these other articles from the 1920s that you're 10 Did you get articles from the lawyers? I want to 11 basing your opinion in part on that the US Navy 1 know what you did. 12 knew in the 1920s that asbestos exposure could 12 A. Your question again, please? 13 cause asbestosis? 13 Q. When you were looking at the Navy's 14 A. I've seen some correspondence by 14 historical knowledge about the hazards o f 15 Philip Drinker from back in the 1920s, 1930s 15 asbestos, how did you go about doing that? 16 with respect to some work that he had done with 16 A. Throughout the course o f my career, 17 the Navy, but, in general, I'd like to say that 17 throughout my career and training, I have had 18 I would prefer to look at the list and then cite 8 years o f training with regards to asbestos, and, 19 specifics for you. 19 a lot o f the information that I had over the 20 Q. Who generated this list that you're 20 years I had seen from the Navy. When I was a 21 talking about, whose list is it? 21 student at the Harvard School o f Public Health, 22 A. There have been documents that I 22 one o f the authors o f the Fisher Drinker article 23 reviewed over tim e with regard to this project, 23 was one o f my professors. I worked for the Navy 24 and, the generation o f the list is actually from 24 and I'm familiar with their long history of 25 many sources, including myself. There were 25 health and safety, and, certainly with regard to Page 35 1 Marjorie A. Drucker - Direct 2 articles that were provided to me for a 3 background in context articles that I 4 contributed to this compendium and materials 5 from a variety o f other sources. 6 Q. So who made the list? I'm not asking 7 you who contributed to the articles that were 8 compiled and made into a list. I'm asking you 9 who made the list? Did you? Let's start there. 10 A. Well, I didn't physically type the 11 list. I contributed to the articles in the list, 12 and, the list, as I understand it, was prepared 13 by the Sidley law firm, meaning that it was 14 typed and prepared by them. 15 Q. Okay. And when did you first 16 contribute to the universe o f articles that w ent 17 into this list that Sidley typed up into a list? 18 A. I'd say in general after September o f 19 '03 when I began the project. 20 Q. Did the Sidley firm or any other 21 attorneys give you a copy o f the Brown article? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. Okay. Did they give you other 24 articles? 25 A. Yes. The Sidley firm provided various Page 37 ; 1 Marjorie A. Drucker - Direct 2 their efforts on asbestos. So when first it may 3 be difficult to say. It probably goes back to my j 4 training at Harvard in the late sixties. 5 Q. After you were first, after you first 6 agreed to take on this historical Navy knowledge 7 review, what did you do? 8 A. Could you be a little more specific? 9 Q. Sure. After September '03, what have 10 you done to inform yourself on these issues 11 regarding the Navy's knowledge? 12 A. W ell, since September '03 - 1 should 13 backtrack a little. As I said from the 14 beginning, from the late sixties, I've been 15 aware o f these issues. 16 Q. Tm not asking you about the late 17 sixties or your knowledge o f the issues 18 pre-September '0 3 .1ju st want to know what 19 you've done since September '03. And if you're 2 0 saying you did nothing other than what you 21 previously knew, that's fine too? 22 A. Since September '0 3 ,1had the 23 opportunity to review various articles and 24 studies, and those would have included those 25 relating to the Navy. 10 (Pages 34 to 37) PRIORITY-ONE COURT REPORTING, INC. (718) 983-1234 Page 38 Page 40 i 1 Marjorie A. Drucker - Direct 1 M aijorieA.Drucker -Direct 2 Q. Where did you get the articles and 2 you tell me the title? Can you tell me anything f 3 studies that related to the Navy since September 3 about the articles in terms o f where they were 4 '03? 4 published, when they were published, who 5 A. Some o f the articles that I reviewed 5 published them? 5 6 were provided to me by the Sidley firm and some 6 A. I recall one o f the articles stating l 7 o f the, as I said, I provided articles, as well. 7 that. It was a retrospective o f the rich history 8 I also have sought some correspondence at 8 o f industrial hygiene occupational medicine in 9 Harvard Medical Library when I was there 9 the Navy. It was a retrospective done by the 10 reviewing some documents. So it's a combination 10 Navy. And to give you the exact title, I would i 11 o f places. 11 have to refer to the list for you. 12 Q. Okay. The basis of your opinion that 12 Q. Anything else? 13 the Navy sent people to the Harvard School o f 13 A. As I said, there were some other 14 Public Health regarding industrial hygiene in 14 articles, but I'd have to refer to the list. 15 1922, where did that come from? 15 Q. Okay. What Drinker correspondence 16 A. I had seen documents relating to that 16 from the 1920s have you seen regarding the 17 people from the Navy were sent to the Harvard 17 Navy's knowledge o f the high risk o f asbestos? 18 School o f Public Health, and, as I recall, I 18 Are they in this GE stuff? And by that for the 19 talked to a form er corporate industrial 19 record there are hard copies o f some 20 hygienist from GE who had also been in the Navy 2 0 correspondence from the 1920s regarding Alice 21 who related to me certain, that officers and 21 Hamilton and also there's a CD Rom with a number { 22 people from the Navy had gone to the Harvard 2 2 o f different items on it. I'm assuming most o f 23 School o f Public Health. 23 them are correspondence. Is it in that group, or 24 Q. I'm talking specifically about 24 are you talking about some other correspondence? 25 starting in 1922, and you're saying somebody 25 A. I'd have to check. I'd have to check. Page 39 Page 41 1 Marjorie A. Drucker - Direct 1 Marjorie A. Drucker - Direct ' 2 who's a former GE industrial hygienist told you 2 Q. What list? 3 that? 3 A. Could you ask the question again, 4 A. Told me that, what? 4 please? 5 Q. You said earlier that in 1922 the US 5 Q. Yes. You mentioned as the basis for 6 Navy knew about high levels of asbestos exposure 6 your knowledge Drinker correspondence in the ] 7 causing asbestosis, and you said the basis o f 7 1920s and thirties about the Navy's knowledge of 8 your opinion were studies and literature and 8 the hazards o f asbestos, did you not? 9 your knowledge that the Navy had sent industrial 9 A. Yes. j 10 hygienists to the Harvard School of Public 10 Q. And I'm asking you where are those, 11 Health, right? 11 or can you point me to where I might find those? 12 A. Yes. 12 A. You can find some o f the 13 Q. Okay. I'm trying to find out the 13 correspondence in this, some o f the Alice 14 basis for your belief that in 1922 the US Navy 14 Hamilton documents going back, but, again, I'd 15 sent people to the Harvard School o f Public 15 have to double check that. I'd have to look at 16 Health to study industrial hygiene, that's what 16 the listing to give you an answer. 17 I'm trying to find out. What are you basing that 17 Q. And who was Drinker with respect to 18 on? 18 the Navy in the 1920s and thirties? 19 A. I had seen that written in at least 19 A. Phil Drinker who was also on the 20 one or more articles, and, I would have to refer 20 faculty o f Harvard served as a consultant in the 21 to a list o f that. 21 United States Navy for a period o f time and also 22 Q. So in some article you've seen it 22 was a participant in some studies. 23 said and that's the basis o f your opinion? 23 Q. And what period o f time was Philip 24 A. Article or articles, yes. 24 Drinker a consultant for the US Navy? 25 Q. Okay. Well, how many were there? Can 25 A. I'd say in general Phil Drinker was a PRIORITY-ONE COURT REPORTING, INC. (718) 983-1234 11 (Pages 38 to 41)  Page 42 Page 44 1 Maijorie A. Drucker - Direct 1 Marjorie A. Drucker - Direct 2 consultant to the Navy in the thirties and 2 MR. SPEZIALI: I'm asking about the 3 forties. 3 Betts exhibits. 4 Q. Not the twenties? 4 MR. KRISTAL: Please, guys. Did 5 A. I'd have to check that. 5 anybody mention the word Dublin? 6 Q. Well, are you basing your opinion 6 MR. SPEZIALI: I ju st want the Betts ' 7 that the Navy knew in 1922 that asbestos could 7 exhibits. 8 cause asbestosis on D rinker correspondence in 9 the 1920s? 8 MR. KRISTAL: Please don't prompt the 9 witness. Okay? 10 A. What I said before was that I was 10 Q. I'm talking about Drinker 11 basing that the N avy knew in 1922 about asbestos 11 correspondence from the 1920s. Is there anything 12 on several articles, and I would have to refer 12 that you're aware o f that Drinker wrote in 13 to the list to give you those. 13 correspondence that relates to the Navy's 14 Q. N ot D rinker correspondence? 14 knowledge o f the hazards o f asbestos? 15 A. W hen you're using the term 15 A. I'd have to refer to the document. 16 "correspondence" I don't know if you're 16 Q. Okay. The Brown article with respect 17 referring to letters. I'd say that I would have 17 to asbestosis was talking about insulation, was 18 to refer. 18 it not? 19 Q. Let me make it clear before you 19 MR. SPEZIALI: I'm going to object. We 2 0 answer. By "articles," I'm talking about 20 have the Brown article here. She's asked to 21 something that's been published somewhere. 21 refer to the Brown article. So if you want 22 Correspondence unless they're published 22 to ask more questions about it, let's refer 23 contemporaneously is not an article or a 23 to the article. 24 published document. 24 Q. Let me ask the question. Can you 25 You mentioned Drinker correspondence 25 answer that question as to whether Brown was Page 43 1 Marjorie A. Drucker - Direct 2 from the 1920s and 1930s earlier, and I'm asking 3 you about the 1920s Drinker correspondence, is 4 there such a thing or more than one thing or not 5 with respect to the Navy's knowledge o f the 6 hazards of asbestos? 7 A. I would have to refer to the articles 8 to give you more specific information. 9 Q. I'm not talking about any articles. 10 MR. SPEZIALI: Let me ask this. 11 MR. KRISTAL: I don't want you to ask 12 anything. 13 MR. SPEZIALI: Tim, don't we have the 14 exhibits here? 15 MR. KAPSHANDY: No, because they were 16 provided to him last week. 17 MR. SPEZIALI: I thought we had them 18 available in CD? 19 MR. KAPSHANDY: I'm about to put them 20 on a disc for him. 21 MR. SPEZIALI: Do we have them 22 available that the witness can look at 23 them? 24 MR. KAPSHANDY: The Brown and the 25 Dublin articles he's talking about. Page 45 ; 1 Marjorie A. Drucker - Direct 2 talking about insulation that contained asbestos 3 without looking at the Brown article? 4 A. I would like to refer to the article 5 to answer your question. 6 Q. Meaning you can't do it without it? 7 A. Meaning that I would feel more 8 comfortable in answering your question fully 9 after I look at the article. 10 Q. So without looking at the article you 11 are unwilling to say whether Brown was talking 12 about asbestos-containing insulation or not; is 13 that correct? 14 A. I would like to refer to the article 15 to answer your question. 16 Q. Okay. Was the Brown article published 17 anywhere? 18 MR. SPEZIALI: Objection. We have the 19 article. 20 Q. Do you need to look at the article to 21 answer that question? 22 A. I would like to look at the article. 23 MR. KRISTAL: Do you have the 24 article? 25 MR. KAPSHANDY: I have it up, Counsel. PRIORITY-ONE COURT REPORTING, INC. (718) 983-1234 12 (Pages 42 to 45) Page 46 Page 48 | 1 M aijorie A. Drucker - Direct 1 Marjorie A. Drucker -D irect J 2 I f it's acceptable, she's asked to look at 2 Foundation, any industry? 3 it but you don't seem to want her to. 3 A. No. 4 MR. KRISTAL: Just for the record we 4 Q. So you can see from reading the 5 have a laptop that Ms. Drucker is 5 article that it was presented at a conference, 6 reviewing. I'm assuming, because I can't 6 this Fifth Annual Conference in 1922 [sic]; is 7 see it, that it is the Brown article. 7 that right? 8 MR. KAPSHANDY: You're welcome to look 8 A. I'm scrolling up right now. Fifth 9 at it. 9 Annual Meeting 1940. 10 MR. KRISTAL: I trust you that it's 10 Q. 1940. Okay. What's that got to do :! 11 the Brown article. 11 with 1922? 12 (Whereupon, the witness peruses 12 A. Well, as I recall, before you asked 13 information on the computer.) 13 me about in general what kinds o f things was I 14 A. Thank you. 14 familiar with about the Navy's program in 15 Q. W as the Brown article published 15 industrial hygiene occupational medicine, and I 16 anywhere? Just for the record you read finished 16 had mentioned this as one article that I recall. 17 reading the Brow n article? 17 Q. Okay. Well, the record will speak for i 18 A. I looked at the Brown article, and 18 itself 19 the Brown article it appears, I don't know if it 19 Are you or are you not relying on 20 was published. According to this, it was 2 0 this Brown speech for your belief that in 1922 21 presented at the Fifth Annual Meeting o f the Air 21 the US Navy knew about the hazards o f asbestos? 22 Hygiene Foundation o f America in Pittsburgh 22 A. From the information provided in the 23 November 12th, 1940. 23 article ifs an indication o f rich history o f 24 Q. Do you know what that foundation is, 24 occupation medicine industrial hygiene in the * 25 A ir Hygiene Foundation o f America? 25 Navy. W hether it specifically addresses the 1922 Page 47 Page 49 ; 1 Marjorie A. Drucker - Direct 1 Maijorie A. Drucker - Direct 2 A. In terms o f what? 2 data Td have to read it in its entirety, but 3 Q. In term s o f anything. 3 there are other articles I would have to refer 4 A. As I recall, when I was a student at 4 to to give you that date o f 1922. S 5 Harvard, I had heard of the Air Hygiene 5 Q. Okay. Why don't you read the Brown 6 Foundation. 6 article? Have you ever read the Brown article in ; 7 Q. Okay. Anything else? I asked you what 7 its entirety? 8 the Air Hygiene Foundation is, if you know, and 8 A. Yes. 9 you said you heard o f it when you were a 9 Q. Okay. If you need to read the article ? 10 student. That's not my question. Do you know 10 in its entirety to tell me if it relates to 1922 11 w hat the A ir Hygiene Foundation is? 11 or not, go ahead. 12 A. As I said, as a student at Harvard, 1 12 (Whereupon, the witness peruses the 13 was fam iliar that there was an Air Hygiene 13 computer.) 14 Foundation. 14 Q. Have you had a chance to read the 15 Q. Okay. From your familiarity when you 15 whole Brown article? 16 were at Harvard with the Air Hygiene Foundation, 17 w hat was the A ir Hygiene Foundation? 18 A. M y familiarity from Harvard is that 19 there were people who did research and gave 20 papers, and that's the context in which I had 16 A. I skimmed it, yes. 17 Q. I don't want you to skim it. If you 18 need to read the whole article take your time 19 and read the whole article. Do you think you 20 read it sufficiently to answer questions? 21 heard of the A ir Hygiene Foundation. 21 A. Yes, I'll try. 22 Q. Okay. Do you know when it was formed? 22 Q. Tell me what in it relates to 1922 23 A. No. 24 Q. Do you know whether or not members o f 23 and the US Navy knowledge in 1922? 24 A. In looking at the article I don't see 25 industry were part o f the Air Hygiene 25 the date 1922 mentioned. I believe I mentioned PRIORITY-ONE COURT REPORTING, INC. (718) 983-1234 13 (Pages 46 to 49) Page 50 1 Marjorie A. Drucker - Direct 2 before that it was part o f materials that I saw 3 that related to the rich and long-standing 4 program that the Navy has as far as occupational 5 medicine and industrial hygiene. 6 Q. So with respect to your opinion that 7 the US Navy knew in 1922 that high levels of 8 asbestos exposure could cause asbestosis, the Brown 9 article doesn't speak to that date, does it? 10 A. In my reading o f it I wouldn't 11 exclude that. 1 don't see the date 1922 12 specifically mentioned, but, obviously, in 1940 13 the Navy has had a long-standing program, and, 14 as I said, I saw another article with 1922 15 mentioned so I could mesh this with that. It's 16 not inconsistent. 17 Q. How about 1912, would that article 18 equally apply to 1912? 19 MR. SPEZIALI: 1912 what? 20 MR. KRISTAL: Navy knowledge of the 21 knowledge o f asbestos in 1912. 22 MR. SPEZIALI: Objection. She never 23 said that. 24 Q. You can answer the question. 25 A. You asked me before from what date Page 52 ? 1 Marjorie A. Drucker - Direct 2 hygiene in general, yes, including asbestos. 3 Q. Tell me what in the article leads you 4 to say that about asbestos long-standing rich 5 history? 6 A. There are references to asbestos in 7 this article itself and the programs that they 8 developed. So in my reading as an industrial 9 hygienist I look at an article like this and I'm 10 aware that it takes time to develop programs of 11 apparently the sophistication that they have 12 expressed in this article in 1940. So, to me, 13 that lends credence that it's been a program o f 14 some standing and it appears rich in knowledge. 15 Q. Tell me specifically from the article 16 what you're talking about? 17 A. I'd say in general the article 18 addresses many occupational hazards. So it 19 appears that the Navy is aware in many realms of 20 various occupational hazards. They do mention 21 asbestosis. 22 Q. Right. And what leads you to believe 23 the Navy had a long-standing knowledge o f that 24 from the Brown article? 25 A. Well, there are some things mentioned Page 51 1 Maijorie A. Drucker - Direct 2 was the Navy aware? I said 1922. And that's what 3 I'm relating the knowledge that it's apparently 4 gathered by this time in 1940.1 never mentioned 5 the date 1912. 6 Q. Right. And m y point is, what does a 7 1940 article, that particular 1940 article got 8 to do with your specific opinion that the Navy 9 knew in 1922 about the hazards asbestos as 10 opposed to 1912 or 1932? 11 A. As I mentioned before, there are 12 other articles that did mention, article or 13 articles that did mention 1922, and I see this 14 as meshing consistently with that that obviously 15 by 1940 they have a long-standing and very, very 16 rich knowledge o f th e program, including that 17 related to asbestos. 18 Q. Tell me what you're relating to the 19 long-standing rich knowledge o f asbestos about 20 from the Brown article? 21 A. Could you repeat that, please? 22 Q. Sure. You said that the article tells 23 you that the Navy had a lo n g -sta n d in g rich 24 program about the knowledge o f asbestos, right? 25 A. And occupation medicine industrial Page 53 ` 1 Marjorie A. Drucker - Direct 2 in the article itself that indicates that 3 surveys were made, x-rays were taken, and, as an 4 industrial hygienist, I know that these kind of 5 programs, the awareness, investigation of 6 hazards, medical surveillance such as they're 7 referring to here in this article take time to 8 institute. So in my reading o f this I see that 9 there was a lot o f knowledge already accumulated 10 by 1940 when this paper was presented and that 11 they certainly appear to be fairly well aware o f 12 asbestos hazards as they relate to the Navy at 13 that point in time. 14 Q. I'm talking about 1922. What leads 15 you to believe that there w as a long-standing 16 program that went back to 1922 from the surveys 17 that were taken, the x-ray program from the 18 medical surveillance that's mentioned in the 19 Brown article? 20 A. That's not what you asked me before. 21 What you asked me was how, well, what I answered 2 2 was that it's apparent to me that by 1940 they 23 had a rich program with a lot o f aspects that 24 were sophisticated for the time. I said that 25 other articles, article or articles had brought PRIORITY-ONE COURT REPORTING, INC. (718) 983-1234 14 (Pages 50 to 53) Page 54 Page 56 !i 1 Maijorie A. Drucker - Direct 1 Maijorie A. Drucker - Direct 2 to m y attention the date 1922. 2 it could be faxed. Fm trying to take a 3 3 Q. Is there anything in Brown from which 3 deposition here. I'm not blaming anybody 4 you can pin a date to 1922 in terms o f the 4 here and not blaming Ms. Drucker. If she 5 Navy's knowledge o f the hazards o f asbestos as 5 needs something to look at to answer a 6 opposed to 1932 or 1912? 6 question, it seems logical we ought to have 7 A. My reading o f it right now on screen, 7 what she needs. Can somebody request file 8 I don't see anything specifically relating to 8 list be faxed? 9 1922.1 don't exclude it. I see it as meshing 9 MR. SPEZIALI: Obviously we're going 10 with other articles that describe the Navy's 10 to be bogged down with this list. Let me 11 industrial hygiene and medical program going 11 see if w e can get the list. If we can't, we 12 back in time to 1922. 12 should look for another date. Most o f the 13 Q. Can you give me the name o f any 13 answers are going to center around this 14 article or anything that you're relying on for 14 list. Let me make a quick call. 15 your opinion that the Navy knew that asbestos 15 MR. KRISTAL: Can we move while you do 16 caused asbestosis in 1922? 16 that? D o you want m e to wait? 17 MR. SPEZIALI: Objection. Asked and 17 MR. SPEZIALI: A sk some things around 18 answered. W e have the list. I f you want to 18 it and we'll break. 19 refer to the list, you can refer to the 19 Q. Sticking with Brown, you don't know 20 list. 2 0 whether it was published or not other than it 21 MR. KRISTAL: O f course. I'm not 21 was given as a speech at some conference? 22 ruling that out. You said we have the list. 22 A. I don't know. 23 W ell, get tiie list out. Tm trying to move 23 Q. Okay. Brown refers to 24 this along. It's not a memory test. 24 asbestos-containing insulation, correct? 25 MR. SPEZIALI: Do we have the list? 25 A. It's listed in there and I just Page 55 Page 57 J 1 Maijorie A. Drucker - Direct 1 Maijorie A. Drucker - Direct 2 MR. KAPSHANDY: Many o f them are on 2 looked at it, and I would read you the list and ; 3 the Betts list, as well as the exhibit 3 not refer to my memory. So I could read it to i 4 list, so we can refer to the GE exhibit 4 you if w e can go back to it. 5 list and I can give you an exhibit number. 5 MR. KAPSHANDY: Is that it? 6 MR. KRISTAL: W hat I'd like to do is 6 THE WITNESS: It's on Page 11 and 12. 7 refer to whatever list Ms. Drucker is 7 Q. Are you talking about the chart? 8 talking about because I don't know what 8 A. And there's a descriptor, too. 9 list you're talking about. 9 (Whereupon, the witness peruses the 10 MR. KAPSHANDY: I told you before on 10 computer.) 11 the record it is the list o f Betts' 11 A. O n Page 11 o f this article under 12 exhibits that are attached, many o f which 12 "Dust Diseases" asbestosis is listed as "For 13 are on the exhibit list, both o f which have 13 makers o f pipe insulating covers." And on Page 14 been given to you. 14 12 it says, "Asbestosis, this is a potential 15 MR. KRISTAL: Do we have a copy of the 15 occupational disease hazard due to inhalation o f 16 Betts list so Ms. Drucker can look at it to 16 asbestos dust among workers engaged in the 17 answer the questions? That's all I'm 17 manufacture o f asbestos insulating covers for 18 asking. 18 flanges, valves and high temperature steam 19 MR. KAPSHANDY: No, not here. 19 turbines." 20 MR. KRISTAL: W hy don't we agree to do 20 Q. So what Brown is talking about, at 21 this some other date? This is absurd. We'll 21 least your understanding of it, is that people 22 have to continue this. 22 who were engaged in using asbestos-containing 23 MR. KAPSHANDY: W e can have them sent 23 insulation were at risk o f asbestosis? 24 over from Newark. 24 A. The terms he uses are "asbestos 25 MR. KRISTAL: That would be great if 25 insulating covers for flanges, valves and high PRIORITY-ONE COURT REPORTING, INC. (718) 983-1234 15 (Pages 54 to 57' Page 58 Page 60 ? 1 M aijorie A. Drucker - Direct 1 Maijorie A. Drucker - Direct : 2 temperature steam turbines." 2 controlling high exposures to prevent problems. 3 Q. Okay. So people who were using those 3 Q. Tell me specifically what you're 4 materials were at risk for asbestosis, and that 4 saying - strike that. 5 was known in the 19, at least 1940? 5 Are you saying because he's 6 A. Yes, that people exposed to high 6 recommending control measures by definition he's 7 levels above five million particles per cubic 7 talking about high levels o f exposure? Is that 8 foot would have the potential for asbestosis. 8 what you're saying? 9 Q. Okay. W here are you getting the high 9 A. You're using the term "high." It's a 10 levels above five m illion particles per cubic 10 general, when you're using the term "high," 11 foot from? From the Brown article? 11 that's a very general statement. I'm saying 12 A. I was using that from general 12 looking at this -- 13 background information. 13 Q. You used the term "high." I didn't 14 Q. D oes Brow n mention high levels o f 14 use the term high. Y ou said you're getting from 15 asbestos exposure? 15 the Brown article that high levels o f asbestos 16 A. From w hat I ju st read, I mean, I 16 exposure to cause asbestosis and that was known 17 literally read that's w hat it stated. If I 17 by the Navy. And I'm asking what in the Brown 18 mention levels, I w ould have to look back in the 18 article leads you to say he said high levels o f 19 article for you. 19 asbestos exposure. Be very specific. Tell me 20 Q. Okay. W hy don't you do that? 20 what he's saying that you're interpreting to 21 (Whereupon, the witness peruses the 21 mean he's talking about high levels o f asbestos 22 computer.) 22 exposure? 23 A. Thank you. 23 A. As a trained industrial hygienist 24 Q. Have you read the article? 24 looking back at an article historic over time, 25 A. I looked at article sections. 25 throughout this article it appears he's Page 59 1 M arjorie A. Drucker - Direct 2 Q. Okay. Does Brown mention high levels 3 of asbestos? 4 A. Well, in looking at the article I 5 didn't see the term literally high levels, but, 6 as an industrial hygienist reading this article 7 and understanding w hat he's saying it is 8 apparent to me that he's indicating that, yes, 9 at higher levels we're going to get certain 10 types o f diseases, among which is listed 11 asbestosis. 12 Q. Tell me what language you're looking 13 at for your interpretation that he's talking 14 about high levels? 15 A. W ell, as I said, as an industrial 16 hygienist who's trained to look at articles from 17 the past, I'm looking at this and it seems to me 18 that w hat he's describing is the Navy's very 19 sophisticated program as far as occupational 20 medicine and industrial hygiene, and, in the 21 section on asbestosis he indicates doing things 22 that are in good practice to protect people, 23 medical evaluations, he mentions exhaust 24 ventilation, respirators. So it seems as a 25 trained person reading this he is looking at Page 61 ' 1 Marjorie A. Drucker - Direct 2 describing the Navy program which is well aware 3 o f hazards and highly sophisticated, and, to me 4 in the way he describes certain diseases and 5 control measures he's indicated to me a 6 knowledge that it's important to control certain 7 types o f exposures. 8 Q. Okay. Tell me specifically what 9 language he uses that leads you to believe he's 10 talking about high levels o f asbestos? 11 (Whereupon, the witness peruses the 12 computer.) 13 A. I think it's inherent in his 14 description o f certain types o f suppression 15 methods that they knew about then. 16 Q. Okay. Tell me specifically what it is 17 you're looking at and quote me the language, 18 and, then I'm going to ask you why you believe 19 he's talking about high levels. 20 A. I can cite you one paragraph. There 21 may be others. 22 Q. W ell,! want you to cite as many 23 paragraphs or sentences as you need to do. 24 A. I could start out with one. 25 Q. Okay. We'll start with one and then PRIORITY-ONE COURT REPORTING, INC. (718) 983-1234 16 (Pages 58 to 61) Page 62 Page 64 1 Marjorie A. Drucker -Direct 1 Marjorie A. Drucker - Direct 2 we'll move on to others. Start with one. 2 nothing to do with the question because ifs not 3 A. The paragraph reads, "Medical control 3 advancing the ball. 4 consists o f taking an x-ray o f the lungs 4 A. I have not been asked to address 5 annually. The material is moistened and 5 that. What I've been asked to address is the 6 localized. Exhaust ventilation is installed over 6 Navy. 1 7 the work area, a respirator is worn during the 7 Q. And, therefore, you can't answer the 1 8 dustiest aspect o f the process." And this is 8 question as to whether or not the industrial \ 9 under B "Asbestosis, The Potential Occupation 9 hygiene community in general knew that by 1940 10 Disease Hazard Due to Inhalation o f Asbestos 10 moistening asbestos-containing materials, using 11 Dust." 11 localized exhaust and respirators were some 12 Q. Okay. So the fact that there is a 12 methods to reduce exposure to asbestos? 13 recommendation that x-rays be taken leads you to 13 A. Certainly the industrial hygiene 14 believe he's talking about high levels o f 14 medical community in the Navy knew by 1940 that | 15 asbestos exposure? 15 they needed to do these types o f methods to 16 A. You take what he's saying in its 16 lower dust. 17 entirety, it's obvious to me as a trained 17 Q. And you don't know one way or the 18 industrial hygienist that what he's saying i s , 18 other whether or not any other industrial 19 that there are certain types o f controls that 19 hygiene community knew that, you ju st don't know 20 need to be instituted and worked against type of 2 0 as you sit here? * 21 material in which he's listing the ones they 21 A. I haven't been asked to address that 22 used in the N avy at that point in time in 1922. 2 2 today, but it's - 23 So they're well aware in 1922 that it's 23 Q. Saying you haven't been asked to 24 important to do medical examinations, to use 24 address that doesn't say to me you know or not. 25 exhaust ventilation and respirators. And as an 25 So whether you've been asked to address it or | Page 63 Page65 3 1 Marjorie A. Drucker - Direct 1 Marjorie A. Drucker -D irect i 2 industrial hygienist, that indicates to me that 2 not, I'm asking whether you know the answer to ? 3 they're aware that they need to control these 3 that question? 4 exposures, they need to make them as low as 5 possible. 6 Q. And that certainly was a well 4 A. I haven't been asked to address it 5 and I haven't formulated an opinion on that. I 6 Q. Okay. The industrial hygienists that ^ 7 accepted body o f knowledge in the industrial 8 hygiene community with respect to asbestos had 7 were in the Navy ifs your belief were being I 8 trained at the Harvard School o f Public Health? 9 lower exposures by 1940, right? 10 A. That is referring to what? 9 A. Ifs my understanding that many of | 10 the industrial hygiene officers and health and J 11 Q. Moistening the material, using 11 safety professionals did go to the Harvard 12 localized exhaust ventilation, using 12 School o f Public Health. 13 respirators. 14 A. W e're confining our talk this morning 13 Q. Starting in 1922? 14 A. Yes, starting in 1922. 15 to the Navy. 15 Q. Okay. And, in part, is it your 16 Q. My question has nothing to do with 16 opinion that that's where they learned about the 17 the Navy. I f you can't answer that question, 18 then let me ju s t know you can't answer that 19 question. 20 A. Well, I'm prepared this morning to 21 talk about the Navy. 22 Q. W hich means you're not prepared to 17 hazards o f asbestos? 18 A. Could you repeat that, please? 19 Q. Sure. Is it your opinion that 2 0 industrial hygienists who were in the Navy that 21 went to the Harvard School o f Public Health 2 2 starting in 1922 learned about the hazards o f 23 answer that other question. If you're not, 24 you're not and we will move on to the next 25 question, but I don't need an answer that has 23 asbestos through their education at the Harvard 24 School o f Public Health in part? 25 A. I certainly think that in 1922 the PRIORITY-ONE COURT REPORTING, INC. (718) 983-1234 17 (Pages 62 to 65) Page 66 Page 68 !? 1 Marjorie A. Drucker - Direct 1 Marjorie A. Drucker - Direct 2 people, the Navy people attending the Harvard 2 Q. Okay. My question is, can you think 3 School o f Public Health, yes, would have learned 3 of any reason why the Harvard School o f Public 4 that high levels o f dust, including high levels 4 Health would be teaching people who weren't in 5 o f asbestos dust causing asbestosis. 5 the Navy differently than they were teaching 6 Q. And those people would have also 6 people who were in the Navy about the hazards of 7 learned in part how to control the dust levels 7 asbestos beginning in 1922? g such as moistening the material, using localized 8 A. I don't know if other people did 9 exhaust or using respirators, right? 9 attend in program starting in 1922, but I can't 10 A. I'd have to refer to some documents 10 think of a reason why they would not impart the 11 to answer that. 1 same information to people. 12 Q. Such as what? 12 Q. Okay. Anything in Brown that talks 13 A. Such as some o f the documents we were 13 about five million particles per cubic foot o f 14 talking about before about the Navy's program 4 air? 15 going back over tim e. 15 A. As 1was looking the article over 16 Q. Okay. The information that was being 16 ju st now I did not see five million particles 17 imparted to the N avy industrial hygienists 17 per cubic foot mentioned. 18 beginning in 1922 about high levels o f asbestos 18 Q. Have you read the minimum 19 exposure causing asbestosis was not limited to 19 requirements for contract shipyards document? 20 those folks that w ere in the Navy, was it, at 20 A. Yes. 21 the Harvard School o f Public Health? 21 Q. What year was that, not that you read 22 A. Would you mind repeating that, 22 it, what year was that document published? 23 please? 23 A. 1943. 24 Q. Sure. W as it your understanding that 24 Q. Is that a secret document o f any 25 the N avy industrial hygienists that were in the 25 kind? Page 67 1 M arjorie A. Drucker - Direct 2 Harvard School o f Public Health starting in 1922 3 were taught in exclusive classes and nobody else 4 could attend those classes? 5 A. I don't know. 6 Q. Is it your belief that only those 7 folks who were in the Navy at the Harvard School 8 o f Public Health beginning in 1922 were given 9 information about the hazards of asbestos? 10 A. I was asked to address the Navy 11 here. I don't know about others. 12 Q. Well, do you think the Harvard School 13 of Public H ealth w ould not impart information 14 about the dangers o f asbestos to people who were 15 not in the N avy starting in 1922? 16 A. No. 17 Q. So anybody starting in 1922 who was 18 attending the H arvard School o f Public Health 19 would have gotten the same information about the 20 hazards o f asbestos as the people in the Navy, 21 right? Is there any reason you can think o f why 2 2 they would be given different information? 23 A. I don't know who else attended. It's 24 my understanding that people from the Navy did 25 attend starting in 1922. Page 69 1 Marjorie A. Drucker - Direct 2 A. Not that I'm aware of. 3 Q. Do you know what led up to the 4 promulgation o f that document? 5 A. Ifs my understanding there was some 6 studies conducted that led up to the formulation 7 o f the minimum requirements. 8 Q. What do you mean by "studies 9 conducted"? 10 A. Studies of Naval locations. To be 11 more specific I would like to refer to the 12 document to answer your question. 13 Q. Okay. But it's your understanding 14 that there was some studies conducted that led 15 up to the issuing o f the minimum requirements 16 for contract shipyard documents? 17 A. As I recall. I prefer to look at the 18 document to be more specific. 19 Q. Look at what document? 20 A. The minimum requirements document. 21 Q. Do you know who wrote the minimum 22 requirements document? 23 MR. SPEZIALI: Tim, do we have the 24 document here? 25 MR. KAPSHANDY: Yes, PRfYRTTY-ONE COURT REPORTING, INC. (718) 983-1234 18 (Pages 66 to 69) Page 70 Page 72 | 1 M aijorie A. Drucker - Direct 1. Maijorie A. Drucker - Direct | 2 Q. Can you answer any question about the 2 game. W e're talking about 100 years o f | 3 minimum requirement document without looking at 3 industrial hygiene history and it's unfair. 4 the minimum requirement document? 4 A t this point, she doesn't know. She hasn't 5 A. I would like to refer to the 5 memorized the article. | 6 document. 6 Q. Is that true, you don't know whether 5 7 Q. Okay. So if I asked you who w rote it, 7 or not the minimum requirement document relates 8 you can't tell me that without looking at the 8 to asbestos-containing insulation products? j 9 document? 9 MR. SPEZIALI: Objection. She's asked 10 A. I would like to look at the document 10 to see the document. Let her see the 11 to answer the question. 11 document. 12 Q. Do you know who the document was 12 A. I'd like to look at the document. 13 addressed to? 13 Q. And so you don't know one way or the 14 A. It was for contract Naval shipyards. 14 other as you sit here without looking at the 15 Q. What does that mean? 15 document, and we'll let you look at the document 16 A. It means shipyards that make or 16 in a minute, whether or not it refers to 1 17 modify ships that are non-Naval shipyards. 17 asbestos-containing insulating products? 18 Q. Okay. 18 A. As I recall, it does, but I'd like to 19 A. Non-US Navy shipyards. They're 19 look at the document. 2 0 contract shipyards. 20 Q. Okay. Why don't you look at the 21 Q. The information in minimum 21 document? 22 requirements was not a secret, was it? It was 22 A. Thank you. 23 given to contract shipyards throughout the 23 (Whereupon, the witness peruses the 24 country? 24 computer.) 25 A. I don't know what you call a 25 MR. KRISTAL: W hy don't we take a Page 71 Page 73 i 1 Marjorie A. Drucker - Direct 1 Marjorie A. Drucker - Direct 2 "secret." 2 break? 3 Q. Well, do you have an opinion that 3 Q. Ms. Drucker, you don't have to work i 4 people outside o f the Navy had knowledge of the 4 through the break. Take a few minutes and come 5 minimum requirements document in 1943? 5 back. 6 A. I haven't been asked to look into 6 (Whereupon, there is a recess in the 7 that. I don't know. 7 proceedings.) 8 Q. So you don't have an opinion one way 8 Q. The Brown article notes an increased 9 or the other? 9 risk o f asbestosis in people using 10 A. I wasn't asked to look into that, so 10 asbestos-containing insulating covers; is that 11 I'm not prepared to answer that today. 11 correct? 12 Q. W as the minimum requirements document 12 A. If it could be read back? I read it 13 given to anybody? 13 literally out o f die article. I don't have it in 14 A. I'd like to look at the document 14 front o f me. 15 itself. 15 Q. Whatever the term was, I think it was 16 Q. So you cannot answer that question 16 insulating covers, was the increased risk based 17 without looking at the document? 17 on any epidemiological study that you're aware 18 MR. KAPSHANDY: I have it up here on 18 of? 19 the screen. Can she look at it or not? 19 A. I'd have to go back and look at it 20 MR. KRISTAL: Not yet. 20 again. I don't know. I'd have to look at the 21 A. Could you repeat that, please? 21 article itself. 22 Q. Did the minimum requirements document 22 Q. Do you know if there was any 23 speak about asbestos insulating products? 24 MR. SPEZIALI: Objection. She's asked 23 epidemiological study that looked at whether or 24 not there was an increased risk o f asbestosis of 25 to see the article. This isn't a memory 25 using any asbestos-containing material that was PRIORITY-ONE COURT REPORTING, INC. (718) 983-1234 19 (Pages 70 to 73) Page 74 Page 76 5 1 M aijorie A. Drucker - Direct 1 Marjorie A. Drucker - Direct 2 done before 1940? 2 occupational disease. Why don't you get the 3 A. The Dreesen study done in 19381 3 sentence? Find the Brown article so we get it 4 would consider an epidemiological study done on 4 right. 5 textile workers in a textile mill. 5 (Whereupon, the witness peruses the 6 Q. Okay. With respect to asbestos 6 computer.) 7 insulating covers, or whatever the phrase was 7 A. I think I have the part that you're 8 Brown used, are you aware o f any epidemiological 8 referring to in front o f me. 9 study done on those products with respect to 9 Q. Okay. Can you read that sentence? 10 risk o f asbestosis? 10 A. "Asbestosis, there is a potential 11 A. Y ou're saying done before a certain 1 occupation disease hazard due to inhalation o f 12 date? 2 asbestos dust among workers engaged in the 13 Q. Before Brown gave that speech. 13 manufacture o f asbestos insulating covers, 14 A. I don't know. 14 flanges, valves and high temperature steam 15 Q. Is it necessary that there have been 15 turbines." 16 an epidemiological study showing an increased 16 Q. Okay. Now, it's your understanding 17 risk from asbestos-containing materials that 17 that Brown is not talking about people in some 18 Brown w as referring to before he could conclude 18 private factory somewhere manufacturing 19 that there was an increased risk? 19 asbestos-containing insulation covers, right? 20 A. Could you repeat that, please? 20 A. I'm assuming that since he's in the 21 Q. Sure. Is it necessary, or was it 21 Navy and he's talking about the Navy, I'm 22 necessary at the time Brown gave his speech for 2 2 assuming he's talking about asbestos in the Navy 23 there to have been an epidemiological study on 23 as a potential occupational disease hazard. 24 the particular asbestos-containing products he 24 Q. Used in insulation covers for 25 w as talking about for which there was an 25 flanges, valves and high temperature steam Page 75 1 M aijorie A. Drucker - Direct 2 increased risk o f asbestosis in order for him to 3 conclude that there was an increased risk of 4 asbestosis? 5 A. I'm not here as a medical and 6 toxicological expert. The question is very 7 vague, so I, maybe you could reword it for me. 8 Q. Sure. I want you to assume there was 9 no epidemiological study showing an increased 10 risk of asbestosis from the types of products 11 Brown was talking about in his speech. I want 12 you to assume that, all right? Are you with me 13 so far? 14 A. Could you repeat that? 15 Q. Sure. I want you to assume there was 16 n o epidemiological study that showed an 17 increased risk o f asbestosis for the kinds o f 18 products that Brown was talking about in his 19 speech. D o you have that assumption in mind? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. Does that mean that Brown's statement 22 that there was an increased risk is not valid? 23 A. I don't understand the question. I'm 24 sorry. 25 Q. Okay. Brown said that there was an Page 77 1 Marjorie A. Drucker - Direct 2 turbines, as he mentions? 3 A. Potential occupational disease, 4 insulation covers for flanges, valves and high 5 temperature steam turbines. 6 Q. And is it fair to say you are not 7 aware one way or the other as to whether or not 8 there were any epidemiological studies that 9 showed there was or was not an increased risk 10 from the use o f those materials at that time? 11 A. At that time? 12 Q. Yes. 13 A. In 1940, Tin not aware o f an 14 epidemiologic study having been conducted at the 15 time in 1940 on these materials that he mentions 16 in this article. 17 Q. And I'm including prior to 1940? 18 A. He's talking about, it's not clear to 19 me, but he's talking about insulating covers for 20 flanges, valves and high temperature steam 21 turbines. An insulating cover in my experience 22 with the Navy can be a textile material. So 23 whether he's referring to textiles, it's not 24 clear to me. So in 1940 he may have been 25 referring to the study done in the textile PRIORITY-ONE COURT REPORTING, INC. (718) 983-1234 20 (Pages 74 to 77) Page 78 Page 80 ; 1 M aijorie A, Drucker - Direct 1 Maijorie A. Drucker - Direct i 2 mills. I don't know. 2 epidemiological study on that substance showing l 3 Q. Okay. So what's your understanding 3 an increased risk? 4 when he's talking about die product 4 A. We're using the term epidemiological 5 asbestos-containing insulating covers, what is 5 study a little loosely, so maybe you could 6 he talking about? 6 define what you're calling an epidemiological f 7 A. His description is 7 study and I can try to answer the question. Can 8 asbestos-containing insulating covers for 8 you focus that for me? j 9 flanges, valves and high temperature steam 9 Q. Can you tell me your understanding of | 10 turbines, and that's the description. 10 what an epidemiological study is? 11 Q. Okay. Can you tell me any more 11 A. My understanding is that 1 12 specifically what it is he's talking about? 12 epidemiologic studies study diseases in f 13 A. N ot based on what's written here, no. 13 populations. 14 Q. How about based on anything else? 14 Q. Do you know anything else about \ 15 A. There may be other information in 15 epidemiological studies? 16 other literature. I don't know. I'm ju st looking 16 A. There are a lot o f tilings that relate 17 at the words that are written right here. 17 to epidemiologic studies. Maybe you could ask 18 Q. So as you sit here now you can't tell 18 me. 19 us what Brown was talking about other than the 19 Q. Sure. Are there different kinds o f 20 words he uses which we can all read? 20 epidemiological studies? 21 A. I'm taking him at his value o f his 21 A. If there were two broad studies, 22 listing o f words as they are written. 2 2 prospective and retrospective epidemiological 3 23 Q. But you can't tell us, can you 23 studies. 24 describe the product he's talking about other 24 Q. Okay. With respect to retrospective i 25 than the fact that it contains asbestos and is 25 epidemiological studies, are there types o f \ Page 79 Page 81 f 1 Marjorie A. Drucker -D irect 1 Maijorie A. Drucker - Direct 2 used to insulate flanges, valves and high 2 retrospective epidemiological studies? 3 temperature steam turbines? 4 A. As I sit here now, not beyond what 3 A. I'm sure there are. I've had some ' 4 general background in epidemiology, but I'm not 5 he's listed in this. 5 an epidemiologist. : 6 Q. Fair enough. I want you to assume 6 Q. What do you mean by retrospective > 7 there was no epidemiological study showing an 7 epidemiological study? 8 increased risk o f asbestosis from the use of 8 A. Well, in general, retrospective 9 those products. I want you to assume no 9 epidemiological studies look back over time and 10 epidemiological study showing an increased risk 10 study diseases in populations trying to 11 o f asbestos. Does that fact mean that Brown's 11 determine whatever the hypothesis is that 12 conclusion is invalid? 12 they're studying. 13 A. I don't know how to answer the 14 question. 15 Q. Okay. In order for Brown's 16 statement that there w as an increased risk or 17 potential increased risk, would it have been 18 necessary for him to have been relying on an 19 epidemiological study that showed an increased 2 0 risk? 13 Q. Okay. In the industrial hygiene 14 community do you need to have a retrospective 15 epidemiological study in order to come to the 16 conclusion that a particular substance increases 17 the risk o f that disease? Is that some kind of 18 requirement? 19 A. Well, talking about in general? 20 Q. I'm talking about in general, yes. 21 A. I don't understand the question. 22 Q. Okay. In the field o f industrial 21 A. I don't understand the question. 22 Q. You're an industrial hygienist? 23 hygiene with respect to any substance before you 24 can say that there is a potential risk o f harm 25 from that substance, does there have to be an 23 A. Iam . 24 Q. You deal with hazardous substances? 25 A. Yes, I do. PRIORITY-ONE COURT REPORTING, INC. (718) 983-1234 21 (Pages 78 to 81 1 Marjorie A. Drucker - Direct Page 82 1 Maijorie A. Drucker - Direct Page 84 2 Q. And hazardous substance is a 2 A. The first major epidemiological study 3 substance that increases the risk of some 3 done on asbestos was published in 1938 by 4 adverse outcome in humans; is that fair to say? 4 Dreesen, and that was a study done in the 5 A. In general, I'd say a hazardous 5 asbestos textile mills. 6 substance for the potential for causing harm. 6 Q. And before that study was published 7 Q. And an industrial hygienist before 7 the Navy at least as o f 1922 knew that asbestos 8 you can conclude that a substance has the 8 exposure was hazardous, correct? 9 potential to cause harm, do you have to have an 9 A. 1 said that before, that study was 10 epidemiological study retrospective or 0 conducted, it was known that high levels o f 11 prospective o r any other epidemiological study 11 fibrosis-inducing dust, including asbestos could 12 to come to that conclusion? 12 cause conditions, in this case, asbestosis or 13 A. I'm not a physician or toxicologist. 13 other fibrotic conditions that could also be 14 I have general background in that, and I, I 14 caused. 15 think the question is so broad it could depend 15 Q. Are you talking about 16 on a variety o f factors. I don't know how to 6 asbestos-related disease? You said or other 17 answ er that. 17 fibrotic conditions that can be caused. Are you 18 Q. Okay. What are the factors it depends 18 talking about by asbestos? 19 on? 19 A. I was talking in the general scope o f 20 A. Y our question is --I don't 20 substances that can cause fibrosis of the lung. 21 understand it. 21 Q. I'm not talking -- 22 Q. Okay. For every hazardous substance 22 A. Including asbestos being one o f them. 23 you're aware o f as an industrial hygienist you 23 High levels o f dust can cause dust disease, the 24 believe there's been an epidemiological study 24 dusty lung that was known. . 25 that shows there is an increased risk o f the 25 Q. I'm talking about asbestosis and Page 83 1 Marjorie A. Drucker - Direct 2 harm from that substance? 3 A. Well, I'd say in the substances 4 listed for ACGIH threshold limit values or OSHA 5 acceptable limits they're set based on best 6 available. W hether that's epidemiologic or not, 7 it depends. 8 Q. Okay. So it doesn't have to be an 9 epidemiological study to conclude a substance is 10 a hazard? It may be or may not be? 11 A. Your question is too broad. I can't 12 answer. 13 Q. Okay. 14 A. I can't answ er it. Could you focus it 15 for me, please? 16 Q. Sure. W hat's the first 17 epidemiological study with regard to risk of 18 disease from asbestos exposure that you're aware 19 of? 20 A. I'm aware o f the first major 21 epidemiological study. 22 Q. I'm not asking major. I'm asking the 23 first you believe in your opinion is the first 24 epidemiological study, major, minor, in the 25 middle? Page 85 , 1 Marjorie A. Drucker - Direct 2 nothing else. I hope we don't have to go back, 3 but, it's your opinion in 1922 the Navy knew 4 high levels o f asbestos exposure to cause 5 asbestosis; is that your opinion? 6 A. It's my opinion that in 1922 that it 7 would have been known that high levels o f 8 exposure to dust can cause fibrotic lung 9 conditions. 10 Q. Okay. I'm not asking about dust in 11 general. I'm not asking about fibrotic 12 conditions in general. It's your opinion that it 13 was known in 1922 that high levels o f asbestos 14 exposure to cause asbestosis? 15 A. I'd say at about that time it was 16 known that high levels o f dust could cause 17 dusty, could cause fibrotic condition, including 18 asbestos at high levels causing asbestosis. 19 Q. And with respect to asbestos and 2 0 asbestosis then, that was 16 years before the 21 first epidemiological study on that subject, 22 right? 23 A. It was years before the Dreesen study. 24 Q. And I thought you said the first 25 epidemiological study with respect to asbestos 22 (Pages 82 to 85) PRIORITY-ONE COURT REPORTING, INC. (718) 983-1234 Page 86 Page 88 \ 1 Marjorie A. Drucker -Direct 1 Marjorie A. Drucker -Direct 2 and asbestosis was 1938? 2 few ways, but, yes, I can say that. f 3 A. That's w hat I ju st said. 3 Q. Okay. Is there some other 4 Q. Okay. So then in 1922 the knowledge 4 interpretation to epidemiological study that 5 about asbestos causing asbestosis was 16 years 5 would lead you to believe that there was a | 6 before the first epidemiological study on that 6 epidemiological study before 1938 that showed an 1 7 subject? 7 increased risk of asbestosis from high levels o f | 8 A. Going back in time being there, back 8 asbestos exposure? I 9 then it was known that high levels o f dust could 9 A. In terms o f an epidemiological study 10 cause dusty, a dusty lung type condition, and, 10 correlating various factors, including exposure 11 yes, it was 16 years taking the date 1922, 11 in which Dreesen did in 1938, to me, thafs the 12 th afs 16 years before Dreesen in 1938. 12 first epidemiological study o f that type j 13 Q. So it was known that asbestos 13 correlating health factors with exposure. 14 exposure at high levels could cause asbestosis 14 Q. Okay. Is there some other type o f | 15 16 years before a epidemiological study was done 15 epidemiological study that correlated an 16 on that subject? 16 increased risk o f asbestosis from asbestos? 17 A. Can you repeat that, please? 17 A. I'm here not --maybe what other 18 Q. Sure. In 1922, it was known that high 18 people are calling epidemiological studies I | 19 levels o f asbestos exposure to cause asbestos 19 would not. 2 0 disease and that w as 16 years before the first 20 Q. Have you read the Merriwether study 21 epidemiological study on that subject? 21 from 1930 on asbestos exposure and asbestos 22 A. What I said before was that the Navy 22 disease? 23 was aware in 1922, the Navy would have been 23 A. Yes, I've read Merriwether and Price i 24 aware, and I'm gearing my remarks this morning 24 1930. 25 to the Navy, and the Navy would have been aware 25 Q. Is that a epidemiological study? Page 87 Page 89 | 1 Marjorie A. Drucker - Direct 1 Marjorie A. Drucker - Direct 2 that high levels o f exposure to different kinds 2 A. I'd have to look at the article to | 3 o f dust would have caused a dusty lung 3 answer your question, but, in terms o f .1 4 condition, in this case asbestosis. 4 quantifying exposure and correlating it with | 5 Q. So 16 years before the first 5 disease -- 6 epidemiological study on the subject o f asbestos 6 Q. I'm not talking about quantifying 7 the Navy knew that high levels o f exposure to 7 exposure. I'm talking about a belief that there 8 asbestos could cause asbestosis? 8 was an increased risk o f asbestosis from f 9 A. Well, the health and safety 9 asbestos exposure, what was the first i 10 professionals o f the Navy could be trained, 10 epidemiological study on that subject, to your 5 11 would have been aware o f the high level o f 11 knowledge? 12 exposure to fibrosis conditions such as asbestos 12 A. I'd rather not use the term since I ? 13 dust could cause in this case asbestosis. 13 don't feel comfortable that we're talking about 14 Q. And that was 16 years before the 14 the same thing as far as epidemiological study. 15 first epidemiological study on that, that was 16 15 I'll say that Dreesen was the first study that 16 years before the first epidemiological study on 17 that subject? It sounds like math to me. I don't 16 w as correlating disease and quantified the 17 num ber that they assumed or which they believed 18 know why we're having such a difficult time 18 w as safe, meaning the five million particles per 19 here. 19 cubic foot. 20 You said the first epidemiological 20 Q. So you're saying a epidemiological 21 study was 1938 that showed an increased risk o f 21 study is only a study that quantifies a number 22 asbestos disease from high levels o f asbestos 22 above or below an increased risk? 23 exposure, right? 24 A. Yes. And I mentioned before that the 23 A. I'm not a epidemiologist and I'm just 24 trying to define the study for you, meaning, 25 term epidemiologic study can be interpreted in a 25 they quantified exposure, they measured certain PRIORITY-ONE COURT REPORTING, INC. (718) 983-1234 23 (Pages 86 to 89) Page 90 Page 92 1 M arjorie A. Drucker - Direct 1 M arjorie A. Drucker - Direct 2 disease factors and came up with a level that 2 as an industrial hygienist, and I really am 3 they thought was safe. What other people call 3 having trouble with your broad term of 4 epidemiologic studies or not, I don't know. 4 epidemiological study. 5 Q. So you don't know whether the 5 Q. And I understand you're having that 6 M erriwether and Price study was or was not an 6 trouble, or at least you're saying you're having 7 epidemiological study? 7 that trouble. What I'm trying to do now is 8 A. I think we're using the term 8 eliminate that trouble, because I'm asking you 9 epidemiological study here more loosely than I 9 for your definition o f an epidemiological study? 10 feel comfortable with. 10 A. Well, as I said before, in general 11 Q. Okay. An epidemiological study is a 11 epidemiologic studies study diseases in 12 study looking at populations o f humans that 12 populations. 13 dem onstrates or doesn't demonstrate, tests the 13 Q. Are you done? 14 hypothesis where there's an increased risk from 14 A. That's a general term. 15 a certain exposure. Using that definition, what 15 Q. Okay. 16 was the first epidemiological study with respect 16 A. As an industrial hygienist I have 17 to asbestos disease that you're aware of? 17 studied epidemiology, I have a general 18 A. W ell, I'll use my definition. 18 background in it. 19 Q. I'm asking you to use my definition. 19 Q. Okay. Using your definition, a study 20 A. I can't. I'm sorry. 20 that looks at diseases in populations, when was 21 Q. You can't tell us what the first 21 the first such study with respect to asbestos? 22 study is that you're aware of that demonstrated 22 A. I'd have to look at some documents 23 an increased risk o f asbestosis from any 23 because you're using this term so broadly right 24 asbestos exposure? It's a simple yes or no. You 24 now that I have to return to look at some o f the 25 can or can't. I'm not asking for your 25 materials. Page 91 1 M aijorie A. Drucker - Direct 2 definition. I'm asking for my definition now. 3 A. Can you repeat that? Your questions 4 seem to be changing and I'm trying to focus in to 5 answer w hat you're asking. 6 Q. I want you to define epidemiological 7 study as a study that looks at whether or not 8 there's an increased risk o f a disease from an 9 exposure. With that definition, can you tell me 10 what the first epidemiological study with 11 respect to asbestos exposure was, when it was 12 done and who authored it? 13 A. I f we're looking at an epidemiologic 14 study o f textile workers, that was done in 1938 15 by D reesen where he correlated exposure and 16 disease, cam e up with a level that he thought 17 w as safe, five m illion particles per cubic foot. 18 Q. Okay. How about any workers? I'm not 19 limiting m y definition to textile workers. 20 A. Y our question is so broad I don't 21 know how else to answer it. 22 Q. I don't understand why you think my 23 question is broad. Tell me your definition o f an 24 epidemiological study? 25 A. I am not a epidemiologist. I sit here Page 93 . 1 Marjorie A. Drucker - Direct 2 Q. I'm using your definition. You just 3 gave me your definition. I'll take that 4 definition. Can you tell me when was the first 5 such study without looking at documents? 6 A. As I said before, Dreesen was the 7 first study that correlated, that measured 8 exposures and that correlated disease, and, to 9 me, that is an epidemiologic study. Whether 10 there were others, I don't feel comfortable in 11 saying because o f this definition being so broad 12 and I need to look at other materials. 13 Q. What definition being so broad? 14 A. When we're talking about 15 epidemiologic study. 16 Q. I'm talking about studies that look 17 at disease in populations, that's what I'm 18 talking about, because that's my understanding 19 o f how you defined epidemiologic studies. With 20 that definition, the one that you gave, when was 21 the first such study with respect to asbestos, 22 the study that looked at diseases in populations 23 with respect to asbestos exposure? 24 A. Well, as an industrial hygienist 25 looking at quantifying certain levels -- 24 (Pages 90 to 93) PRIORITY-ONE COURT REPORTING, INC. (718) 983-1234 Page 94 Page96 f 1 M aijorie A. Drucker - Direct 1 Marjorie A. Drucker - Direct 2 Q. Your definition didn't mention 2 Q. Okay. And by "documents," you're I 3 quantifying levels, did it? 3 talking about the list that we've been referring 4 A. No. 4 to? J 5 Q. Because if you want to define your 5 A. There are some documents that are 1 6 definition o f an epidemiological study as 6 listed on the list, there are some that may not | 7 quantifying measures, we can to - 7 be that I just know from past experience and 8 A. If you want me to answer the question 8 training in asbestos. :: 9 the way I can, I'll do it. I f you're trying to 9 Q. What do you mean that you know? 10 answer my question, I don't think that's the way 10 A. That I'm familiar with. 11 this is supposed to work. 11 Q. Well, then tell me about it. If 12 Q. Put qualification aside. Forget about 12 you're familiar with the article, why can't you 13 qualification. I'm ju st talking about a study 13 tell me about them? 14 that talked about diseases in population without 14 MR. SPEZIAII: As you sit here today, 15 any quantification involved. Do you know when 15 do you know off the top of your head any 16 the first such study with respect to asbestos 16 other studies, epidemiological studies 17 was? 17 anywhere in the world prior to Dreesen. 18 A. I'll say as an industrial hygienist 18 THE WITNESS: As I sit here today, 19 that I look at what we're discussing right now, 19 Dreesen is the one that comes to mind. 20 I would say that the Dreesen study in 1938 which 20 M R SPEZIALI: Okay. 21 studied diseases in textile workers and 21 Q. Have you read Dr. Betts' deposition 22 correlated exposures with diseases established 22 that I took recently? 23 w hat was considered a safe level o f five million 23 A. Yes. 24 per cubic foot at that point is what I 24 Q. When did you read that? f 25 consider the first major epidemiologic study 25 A. About a week ago. | Page 95 Page 97 .; 1 Marjorie A. Drucker - Direct 1 Marjorie A. Drucker - Direct ; 2 as far as asbestos in this country. 2 Q. Okay. And have you spoken to Dr. 3 Q. I'm not limiting my question to this 3 Betts? 4 country. I'm not limiting my question to major 4 A. Not since a week ago. | 5 or minor. Is your answer the same that - 5 Q. Okay. How about before that? * 6 A. I don't know. 6 A. Several months ago I met Dr. Betts on 7 Q. You qualified your answer with 7 an occasion. 8 respect to Dreesen in terms o f a major study and 8 Q. Were you done? 9 in this country, and I was not limiting my 9 A. Yes. f 10 question to major or otherwise nor to this 10 Q. Who else was with you when you met 11 country. So without those limitations, is your 11 Dr. Betts? 12 answer any different? 12 A. When I met Dr. Betts, Mr. Kapshandy 13 A. Well, the way I look at a 13 was there, Mr. Fitzpatrick, Mr. Speziali. 14 epidemiologic study being as comprehensive as 14 Q. Anybody else besides you, Dr. Betts 15 Dreesen w as measuring various factors as far as 15 and the GE attorneys you've mentioned? 16 exposure correlating health effects, I would say 16 A. N ot that I recall. 17 that that is the first study o f that type in 17 Q. Okay. W as your understanding these 18 this country. 18 other folks were GE attorneys? 19 Q. Okay. Is there any other study o f any 19 A. Could you say that again? 20 other type that looked at diseases in 20 Q. Sure. The folks other than you and 21 populations other than Dreesen before Dreesen? 21 Dr. Betts that you just mentioned were General 22 A. W ell, when we're talking about 22 Electric attorneys, attorneys obtained by 23 diseases in populations that's a general term 23 General Electric w ith respect to asbestos 24 and I would have to look at the documents to be 24 litigation? 25 m ore comprehensive in my answer. 25 A. Yes, that's my understanding, they're PRIORITY-ONE COURT REPORTING, INC. (718) 983-1234 25 (Pages 94 to 97) Page 98 Page 100 1 M aijorie A. Drucker - Direct 1 Marjorie A. Drucker - Direct 2 attorneys retained by General Electric. 2 for the Navy and we were just talking about 3 Q. Where was this meeting? 3 things in general. 4 A. It was in Chicago. 4 Q. Did you discuss anything relating to 5 Q. And when was it? 5 the Navy's knowledge historically about the 6 A. I'd say in late fall o f 2003. 6 hazards of asbestos? 7 Q. And did Dr. Betts show you his Power 7 A. At what time period are you talking 8 Point presentation at that time? 8 about? 9 A. No. 9 Q. You had a meeting with Dr. Betts in 10 Q. Did you discuss the subject that 10 late 2003 in Chicago with the GE lawyers, right? 11 we're discussing now, Navy knowledge o f the 11 A. Yes. 12 hazards o f asbestos? 12 Q. It's a simple question. Did you 13 A. Well, it depends on which point in 13 discuss in that meeting the subject o f the 14 time. Dr. Betts had an illustrious career with 14 Navy's knowledge o f the hazards o f asbestos 15 the Navy and I had worked for the Navy, as well, 15 historically with Betts, with anybody else at 16 and we talked about things that happened in the 16 the meeting? I'm assuming everybody was talking, 17 Navy contemporaneous w hen we were there. 17 right, or maybe my assumption is wrong? 18 Q. You worked for the Navy when? 18 MR. SPEZIALI: Up to now you said 19 A. I worked for the Navy from 1976 to 19 Betts. Do you understand what I'm saying? 20 1977. 20 Q. Did the subject o f the Navy's 21 Q. W hen in '76? 21 historical knowledge o f the hazards o f asbestos 22 A. July 1976. 22 come up during that meeting? 23 Q. To when in '77? 23 A. W ell, Pd say in general that Dr. 24 A. July 1977. 24 Betts was very proud o f -- 25 Q. Okay. And that was at the Long Beach 25 Q. I'm not asking you the substance yet. Page 99 1 Marjorie A. Drucker - Direct 2 Navy Shipyard? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. So you worked for one year as a 5 civilian employee o f the Navy? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. And you're saying your conversation 8 with Dr. Betts related only to your experience 9 in that one year? 10 A. No. 11 Q. So you spoke with Dr. Betts and the 12 GE lawyers about the Navy's knowledge 13 historically about the hazards o f asbestos, 14 didn't you? You weren't there to talk about the 15 Cubs? 16 A. W ell, I'd say our conversation was 17 general, social and did cover on his career, 18 what he had been doing when I worked for the 19 Navy, general things like that. 20 Q. Did you get paid by GE for your time 21 at the meeting? 22 A. Yes, I did. 23 Q. You're saying you were talking about 24 social things? 25 A. Well, we knew people who had worked Page 101 1 Marjorie A. Drucker - Direct 2 I'm just asking you if the subject came up? 3 A. Well, the question is very broad. I'd 4 say in general the subject o f the Navy and their 5 excellent health and safety program came up. 6 Q. And did the subject o f the hazards of 7 asbestos and when the Navy knew of those hazards 8 come up? 9 A. As I sit here right now, I don't 10 recall. 11 Q. So tell me all the subjects that were 12 discussed at this meeting? How wonderful the 13 Navy was. W hat else? 14 A. Well, certainly, Dr. Betts was very 15 proud o f the Navy's program. 16 Q. Okay. 17 A. The Navy had been on the cutting edge 18 o f information relating to health and safety and 19 asbestos. 20 Q. Okay. So other than Dr. Betts' pride 21 and how wonderful the Navy was, what else? 22 A. I was familiar with that, too. I 23 worked with the Navy and I was familiar with 24 their fine programs in health and safety, and 25 particularly with regard to asbestos. 26 (Pages 98 to 101) PRIORITY-ONE COURT REPORTING, INC. (718) 983-1234 Page 102 Page 104 i 1 Marjorie A. Drucker - Direct 1 Marjorie A. Drucker - Direct 2 Q. W ell, what did you know in the 1970s 2 Felton (phonetic), and I had spent considerable 3 about the Navy's programs with respect to 3 time with him, and that was one person from whom 4 asbestos historically? 4 I learned about the long tradition o f the Navy's 5 A. Could you repeat that? 5 health and safety program. 6 Q. Sure. What did you know when you were 6 Q. I'm talking about the hazards of i 7 in the N avy between July '76 and July '77 about 7 asbestos? 8 the historical knowledge o f the Navy with 8 A. Can I finish? 9 respect to the hazards o f asbestos? 9 Q. I f you're talking more broadly than 10 A. Well, I was a civilian employee with 10 that, I don't really care what your answer is. I S 11 the Navy. I w as the industrial hygienist at the 11 really don't. I'm talking about the hazards o f 12 Long Beach Naval Shipyard. I did surveys on the 12 asbestos historically? i 13 ships and on the land and I had contact w ith 13 A. I'm trying to answer your question, 14 medical and industrial hygiene personnel who had 14 but you cut me off. I don't know what to do. 15 been there for long periods o f time, and, the 15 Q. Did Dr. Gene Spencer Felton talk to 16 history o f the N avy and occupational health and 16 you about the Navy's historical knowledge about j 17 safety and industrial hygiene was ju st part o f 17 the hazards o f asbestos? 18 the background o f being in a position like that. 18 A. I would say in general Dr. Gene 19 I saw documents that went back to, 19 Spencer Felton did talk to me about the Navy's l 20 that covered Navy policy and Navy programs, and, 20 long-standing tradition in health and safety | 21 ju st having been there, I was familiar with the 21 related to asbestos, yes. 22 Navy's knowledge. 22 When I was there at the Long Beach 23 Q. O f what? 23 Navy Shipyard Dr. Selikoff came to talk 24 A. O f health and safely. 24 to workers and I had a chance to spend time I 25 Q. I'm talking about the hazards of 25 with Dr. Selikoff and discuss some o f his \ Page 103 Page 105 \ 1 Marjorie A. Drucker - Direct 1 Maijorie A. Drucker - Direct { 2 asbestos. I want to know what you knew in the 2 surveys he was doing, and, as part of what he S 3 1970s about the Navy's knowledge historically 3 was talking about at the shipyard when he was ) 4 about the hazards o f asbestos? 4 meeting with the health and safety staff and the f 5 A. It's a very broad question, but I was 5 workers, he discussed various things related to * 6 hired, one o f the main activities that I was to 6 asbestos and the surveys he had been doing with 7 perform was to do asbestos-related work on the 7 the Navy going back over time. 8 ships in these shops, and, as part o f my job, I 8 Q. Okay. Dr. Selikoff was not around 9 was given background information and training on 9 doing studies when Dr. Brown wrote about the \ 10 the Navy's historical knowledge, policies, the 10 risks o f asbestos insulating covers and ; 11 way they w ent about controlling environment, 11 asbestosis, right? 12 protecting people. 12 A. I don't know what Dr. Selikoff was 13 Q. Who gave you that? 13 doing then. He was at the shipyard 1976, '77 14 A. Things o f that nature, that would be 14 when I was there. The Brown article, as you 15 part o f the recognition evaluation and control, 15 know, is from 1940. 16 w hich is w hat I as an industrial hygienist did 16 Q. Right. So what I'm saying is, 17 for the Navy. 17 Selikoff did not discover there was a risk o f 18 Q. Who gave you that information in the 18 asbestosis from asbestos insulation from 19 Navy? 19 asbestos-containing insulating covers, right? 20 A. There were a variety o f people. 20 A. No, Dr. Selikoff was not the first 21 Q. Okay. Name one? 21 person. Can you say that again, please? I want 22 A. Industrial hygiene people. 22 to answer the question. 23 Q. Name one? 23 Q. Sure. Do you interpret Brown's 24 A. The medical director for the civilian 24 article to mean that people who are using 25 part o f the shipyard was a Dr. Gene Spencer 25 asbestos-containing insulating materials are PRIORITY-ONE COURT REPORTING, INC. (718) 983-1234 27 (Pages 102 to 105) Page 106 Page 108 1 Maijorie A. Drucker - Direct 1 Marjorie A. Drucker - Direct 2 potentially at risk for asbestos disease in the 2 A. I have a section, it's called 11.1, 3 1940s? 3 it's under "Jobs Requiring Respiratory 4 A. According to Brown's description, 4 Protective Equipment." 5 yes, that's what he was writing about, part o f 5 Q. Okay. And what does it say with 6 it. 6 respect to asbestosis? 7 Q. Okay. That was some 20 plus years 7 A. It says, "Asbestos (as in covering 8 before Selikoff ever published anything on 8 pipes) required either an air line respirator or 9 asbestos; is that fair to say? 9 a dust respirator." 10 A. I don't know. 10 Q. Okay. And that was to reduce the 11 Q. Do you know when Dr. Selikoff first 11 exposure to asbestos from that activity, right? 12 published on the hazards of asbestos? 12 A. I would assume that, yes, to reduce 13 A. I'd have to look that up. 13 the exposure to asbestos from that - - 1 don't 14 Q. Do you know if it was in the fifties? 14 know what you mean by "that activity." It was -- 15 A. Generally, I'm familiar with his work 15 Q. Well, it says covering pipes, right? 16 in the sixties. If he did do something before 16 A. "As in covering pipes," yes. As in 17 that, before the sixties, you know, I don't 17 covering pipe activity, yes. 18 know, but, in general, his studies were, say, 18 Q. So Selikoff did not discover that 19 mid-sixties, '70. 19 covering o f pipes with asbestos-containing 20 Q. What population was Selikoff studying 20 insulation material was a hazard, right? That 21 in the mid-sixties and seventies? 21 was known at least as o f 1943? 22 A. In the mid-sixties, 1970, Dr. 22 A. Yes, I would say it was known in 1943 23 Selikoff was primarily studying insulators. 23 that they needed to keep the dust exposure 24 Q. And that risk to insulators from 24 levels down so they could recommend certain 25 asbestos exposure w as known at least as o f 1940, 25 minimum requirements, literally, this being for Page 107 Page 109 1 Marjorie A. Drucker - Direct 1 Marjorie A. Drucker - Direct 2 right? 2 respiratory protection. 3 A. As I said, knowing what we looked at 4 in the Brown article, I don't know exactly what 3 Q. And the reason you wanted to keep the 4 levels down was because you wanted to reduce the 5 he was describing. 6 Q. Well, we'll get to the minimum 7 requirements document. But they were talking 8 about asbestos-containing materials and people 9 using asbestos-containing insulating materials, 10 right? 11 A. I would have to look at the article. 12 Q. Why don't you look at the article? 5 risk o f disease, right? 6 A. The reason why you wanted to keep the 7 asbestos levels down, yes, you wanted to reduce 8 the exposure to asbestos and reduce the 9 likelihood o f disease. 10 Q. Is that the section on respirators? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. Can you go to the introductory 13 A. Okay. 14 (Whereupon, the witness peruses the 15 computer.) 16 Q. Do you have the minimum requirements 13 paragraph o f that where they talk about the, 14 there's a reference to a manual or American 15 standard with respect to respirators. Do you see 16 that? Do you want me to try to find it? 17 there? 18 A. Yes. 17 A. Yes. 18 (Whereupon, Mr. Kristal peruses the 19 Q. I think the section on asbestosis, I 2 0 think it's H 13, maybe Page 9. I'm doing it off 19 computer.) 20 Q. The section right after that, 11.7, 21 the top o f my head so I'm not sure if that's 2 2 accurate. 23 (Whereupon, the witness continues to 24 peruse the computer.) 25 Q. Do you have that section? 21 what does that say? 22 A. 11.7, "Air supply for air line masks 23 o f all kinds." 24 Q. Right. What does the section say? 25 A. "Air at a comfortable temperature and PRIORITY-ONE COURT REPORTING, INC. (718) 983-1234 28 (Pages 106 to 109) Page 110 Page 112 | 1 Marjorie A. Drucker - Direct 1 Maijorie A. Drucker - Direct 1 2 free from odors and excessive moisture sometimes 2 A. I would like to check. S 3 is difficult to furnish especially for outdoor 3 Q. Okay. f 4 jobs in winter. Air adequate and temperature 4 (Whereupon, the witness continues to 5 shall be used." 5 peruse the computer.) j 6 Q. I think you're reading the wrong 6 MR. SPEZIALI: Pm drawing on memory | 7 thing. 7 here but sort o f looking over the shoulder | 8 A. That's 11.7. 8 here. I'm not so sure the entire document ! 9 Q. Okay. Maybe I m isread it. It referred 9 is there. My recollection is it's a 10 to what's in this section, so I apologize 10 multi-page document, and I'm only seeing 11 because that caught my eye. This is the section, 11 about four pages here. 12 10.3, "General Requirements for Respirators." Do 12 M R. KRISTAL: Then it's definitely not | 13 you see that? That references something, does it 13 there. IPs way more than four pages. 14 not? 14 MR. SPEZIALI: I know what you're i 15 A. Yes. W ould you like m e to read it? 15 referring to, and I don't think it's 16 Q. Yes, please. 16 there. 17 A. "General Requirements for 17 A. There appears to be four pages in > 18 Respirators. Adequate protection is defined by 18 total here and that's it. I don't have the 19 the American Standards Safety Code for the 19 entire document in front o f me. \ 20 protection of heads, eyes and respiratory organs 20 Q. If you look at the introduction o f | 21 H andbookH 24 November 3rd," it looks like 1938. 21 the document, which I think is there, it was 22 Q. Right. 22 addressed to contractors, was it not? j 23 A. "Superintendent o f Documents, 23 A. It's addressed all contractors J 24 Washington DC. Price: $.15." 24 constructing ships for the United States Navy 25 Q. Have you ever read that document? 25 and the Maritime Commission. 1 Page 111 Page 113 f 1 Maijorie A. Drucker - Direct 1 Maijorie A. Drucker -D irect 2 A. Maybe, maybe not. I don't recall. 2 Q. Okay. So does that lead you to 3 Q. Do you know whether GE, a GE employee 3 conclude that the document was widely 4 was on the committee that wrote that document? 4 disseminated? 5 A. No. 6 Q. Okay. The section that you read about 5 A. I think that it went to the people 6 who it was intended to go to, the contractors 7 asbestos exposure and people insulating pipes 7 constructing ships for the United States Navy 8 required to wear types, the types of respirators 8 and the United States Maritime Commission. 9 you mentioned, is that the only section in the 10 minimum requirements on asbestos? 9 Q. Do you know how many such shipyards 10 there were in the US in 1943, shipyards building 11 A. I would have to look through the 11 US maritime ships? 12 document to answer that. 12 A. No, I don't. 13 Q. All right. Why don't you do that. 14 MR. SPEZIALI: Are we going to take a 13 Q. Do you know how many contractors 14 throughout the US that that document would have 15 break at some point? 16 MR. KRISTAL: Sure. Why don't we just 15 been distributed to? 16 A. You mean how many contractors 17 finish this section. 17 constructed ships for the United States Navy and 18 Q. It's in the 13's, I believe, Section 18 M aritime Commission? 19 1 3 ,1 think. 19 Q. Yes. 20 (Whereupon, the witness peruses the 20 A. Not as I sit here right now. 21 computer.) 21 Q. What do you mean not as you sit here 22 A. I don't show a Section 13 on here. 22 right now? 23 Q. It may not be 13. There's a section 24 on asbestosis, right, or you need to look to 25 see? 23 A. Well, as I sit here right now, I 24 don't. 25 Q. Okay. Is it fair to say though this PRIORITY-ONE COURT REPORTING, INC. (718) 983-1234 29 (Pages 110 to 113' Page 114 Page J16 ) 1 M aijorie A. Drucker - Direct 1 Marjorie A. Drucker - Direct 2 was not any sort o f secret document o f any kind, 2 the document to check the date or otherwise 3 it wasn't meant to be exclusive to the Navy or 3 intimate that you were off by 20 years? 4 the US Maritime Commission, right? 4 A. No. I was looking at the document. 5 A. Right, I don't think this was a 5 Q. Just on your own? 6 secret document 6 A. I was looking at the documents to 7 Q. So anybody who would have received 7 double check. I mentioned before I wanted to 8 this document or was aware o f the document if 8 look at some documents. 9 they read it would be aware o f the information 9 Q. What led you to double check the 10 in the document? It's ju st logic, it seems to me? 10 date? 11 A. I f people received it and read it 11 A. What led me to double check it? 12 they would have been aware o f the information. 12 Q. Just to double check it for myself. 13 Q. And the respirator manual we looked 13 A. Just for m yself 14 at earlier, Section 10.3, that was available at 14 Q. What other dates did you double 15 the time for $.15 from the government printing 15 check? 16 office, right? 16 A. The date of 1922 from when, from the 17 A. If it's the one I ju st read into the 17 N avy program starting in 1922. 18 record, yes, that one was available for $.15 at 18 Q. What other dates did you check? 19 the time. 19 A. As I said, the '22 date which I had 20 Q. So publicly available information at 20 mentioned for the Navy inception program. 21 the time? 21 Q. My question has nothing to do with 22 A. Yes, if we're talking about the 2 2 that. I'm asking now, what other dates, or, if 23 specific information, yes. 23 you didn't check any other dates you can say no 24 MR. KR1STAL: W hy don't we take a 24 other dates? 25 break? 25 A. No other dates. Page 115 Page 117 1 Marjorie A. Drucker - Direct 2 (Whereupon, there is a recess in the 3 proceedings.) 4 M R. KRISTAL: Do we have the full 1 Marjorie A. Drucker - Direct 2 MR. SPEZIALI: She had lunch with me, 3 Mr. Kapshandy, Mr. Emery, Mr. Fitzpatrick 4 and we provided her with the transcript 5 minimum requirements? 6 MR. KAPSHANDY: No, I don't believe 5 from the Betts deposition which we told you 6 we were going to provide her with at the 7 so. 8 MR. KRISTAL: Okay. 7 lunch break. 8 Q. Why don't we go to the minimum 9 Q. Can you pull up the section on the 9 requirements document. 10 respirator that mentioned asbestos and the types 10 A. I got it here, and I think this is 11 o f respirators to be used? 12 A. Yes. I had a chance to double check a 11 the abbreviated one. 12 Q. Well, when you say "abbreviated," 13 document over lunch and I'd like to make a 14 correction to something that I said before, and, 13 it's the one that's missing a lot o f pages, it's 14 not an abbreviated version? 15 that w as that the first Naval people went to the 15 A. Yes. 16 Harvard School o f Public Health in 1942, not '22 17 as I mentioned before. 16 Q. And the section on the respirators 17 that mentioned asbestos and the types o f 18 Q. Okay. 19 A. So I ju st want to correct that. 20 Q. Who told you that you had made a 18 respirators to be used? 19 A. Yes, it has a section on that. 20 Q. And it is saying that when asbestos 21 mistake? 21 pipe - strike that. 22 A. I went to look at the document and I 23 discovered it myself. So I looked at it and I 24 noticed that it was '42, not '22. 25 Q. Did anybody suggest that you look at 22 Can you read the first sentence 23 again, asbestos in pipe covering or something to 24 that effect? 25 A. Yes. It's "Jobs Requiring Respiratory PRIORITY-ONE COURT REPORTING, INC. (718) 983-1234 30 (Pages 114 to 117) Page 118 Page 120 ? 1 Marjorie A. Drucker - Direct 1 Maijorie A. Drucker -D irect | 2 Protective Equipment," and it's listed "Dust 2 they're breathing fresh air. f 3 asbestos as in," it looks like covering pipes 3 Q. Okay. And it doesn't say that an air 4 air line respirator, dust respirator. 4 line respirator is required when there are high | 5 Q. Okay. And an air line respirator is a 5 levels o f asbestos dust, does it? | 6 respirator such that the person wearing it is 6 A. As I read this right now it just says t 7 not breathing any outside air, right, it's 7 dust. S self-contained? 8 Q. So it's saying when you're doing a 1 9 A. No. An air line respirator is a type 9 job in which you are using an 10 o f respirator that supplies air from a remote 10 asbestos-containing product you should be 11 source, meaning, not from the immediate 11 wearing an air line respirator or the other '* 12 vicinity. Sometimes, I don't consider 12 option was the dust respirator, right? 13 self-contained breathing apparatus as part o f 13 A. No. Specifically what it says here is f 14 that w hat I think you're describing. A ir line 14 when you're covering pipes. 15 meaning to m e that there's a line to a remote 15 Q. Okay. f 16 source to fresh air bringing it in. 16 A. So it says asbestos covered pipes, l 17 Q. B ut the air line respirator referred 17 air line respirator or -- 18 to there prevents the person from breathing any 18 Q. It says asbestos as in covering 19 o f the air that is in an area that asbestos is 19 pipes, right? 20 being used? 20 A. Correct. f 21 A. Depending on a variety of factors, 21 Q. So they're using that as an example, 22 yes, it's hoped that an air line respirator 2 2 correct? ' 23 would provide a fresh air supply to the person, 23 A. Yes, it is used as an example. It 24 yes. 24 says asbestos as in covering pipe. 25 Q. And the air that's being supplied to 25 Q. But ifs not meant to be, at least ; Page 119 Page 121 f 1 M aijorie A. Drucker - Direct 1 Marjorie A. Drucker -D irect 2 the person is coming from a hose that is far 2 your understanding o f it, exclusive to that 3 away from where the asbestos is being used, 3 activity of covering pipes, correct? 4 right? 4 A. Right. 5 A. W hat you're talking about asbestos, 6 I'd say in general. 5 Q. Okay. And they're not talking about 6 whether the level is high, low or somewhere in 7 Q. I'm not talking in general. I'm 7 between, they're saying if you're working with 8 talking about as you understand that section 8 asbestos as in covering pipes you should wear 9 where it says jobs requiring respirators for 9 either a full air line respirator, right? 10 asbestos, including covering pipes, it says one 10 A. Okay. 11 o f the recommendations or requirements is an air 11 Q. Or the dust respirator, correct? 12 line respirator, right? 12 A. Yes. I f we're ju st looking at this 13 A. Yes. 13 section, yes, that's w hat it says. I don't have 14 Q. I'm trying to get your understanding 14 the rest o f all the, w hat might be in the 15 o f what that means. Are you with me? 15 article, but, yes, that's correct, it says 16 A. Yes. 16 asbestos if it's present. 17 Q. Okay. If s your understanding that 17 Q. By that are you saying that you think 18 that means there's a hose that is leading away 18 there may be something that talks about only 19 from the person that is accessible to fresh air 19 wearing respiratory protection or taking other 20 so when the person is breathing the person is 21 breathing from a source that is not in the 2 0 protective measures when you're around high 21 levels o f asbestos or you don't know without 22 immediate area where the asbestos is being used? 22 looking? 23 A. Right. It's connecting the person by 24 hose to a source o f air where the contaminant o f 23 A. Other than looking through the whole 24 document, just looking at this it ju st says 25 interest is not present so that, in other words, 25 asbestos dust. PRIORITY-ONE COURT REPORTING, INC. (718) 983-1234 31 (P ages! 18 t o i 21) Page 122 Page 124 1 Marjorie A. Drucker - Direct 2 Q. Okay. N o mention in the minimum Marjorie A. Drucker - Direct public can look at? 3 requirements about the five million particles A. I've given talks at professional 4 per cubic foot o f air? association meetings that it's my understanding 5 A. From the section I'm looking at right were reprinted and the public and technical 6 now, it doesn't mention that. people there looked at. 7 Q. W ithout looking at the other pages Q. Anything else? 8 which w e don't have in front o f us you can't A. Not that I recall. 9 answer that question? Q. When you say not that you recall, are 10 A. W ith certainty, no. 10 you saying there may be other things and you 11 Q. How about to a reasonable degree of ju st don't remember them, or is that the 12 certainty? universe of broad categories in which you've A. I'd have to refresh myself. I ju st 13 published? looked at the document, so... A. I'd say that's the universe o f broad Q. Do you know whether the document categories. 16 refers to various methods o f manipulating Q. Now, the newspaper articles, are 17 asbestos-containing products as increasing your 17 these articles or columns? D o you know the 18 risk o f asbestosis? 18 difference? An article is reporting something on 19 A. I'd have to double check and look at 20 the document. 21 (W hereupon, Resume is marked 22 P laintiffs D rucker Exhibit 2 For 19 a news topic. A column is kind o f expressing an 2120 opinion on something. A. Yes, they were columns. 22 Q. Okay. And during what period o f time 23 Identification.) 23 did you write any newspaper columns? 24 Q. Let m e talk about your resume. I 24 A. I wrote a newspaper column for a 25 marked this Exhibit 2. Is that a copy o f your 25 period o f time, would have been maybe about the Page 123 1 M arjorie A. Drucker - Direct 2 resume? Do you have a copy in front o f you? 3 A. Yes, I do. 4 Q. Have you ever published anything 5 that's been published in any sort of 6 professional journal on any subject? 7 A. I've published some newspaper 8 articles. 9 Q. Right. I'm talking about professional 10 journals. That's why I asked the question that 11 way? 12 A. I'm trying to answer your question 13 fully. 14 Q. W ell, my question is, have you ever 15 published anything on any topic in any 16 professional journal? 17 A. No. 18 Q. Have you ever published anything on 19 anything, which is obviously a broader question? 20 A. I've had newspaper articles that I've 21 written published. 22 Q. Anything else? 23 A. I've given some talks at professional 24 associations. 25 Q. I'm talking about things that the Page 125 1 M arjorie A. Drucker - Direct 2 mid-1990s and another series of articles going 3 back to probably the early seventies. 4 Q. So for a period o f tim e in the 5 mid-1990s you wrote some newspaper columns? I'm 6 going to get to the seventies in a little 7 while. 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. Okay. How long a period of time? Can 10 you give me years, or is it less than a year? 11 A. It was less than a year. I'd say 12 maybe about five, six months. 13 Q. How often did you write these 14 columns? W as it weekly? M onthly? Daily? 15 A. It was about once a month. 16 Q. So you've written about five or six 17 newspaper columns in a one-year period in the 18 mid-1990s? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. Okay. And for what newspapers did you 21 write this series o f five or six columns? 22 A. The publication was called the 23 California Newspaper Publishers Association 24 Journal Newspaper. 25 Q. So it was a newspaper for the PRIORITY-ONE COURT REPORTING, INC. (718) 983-1234 32 (Pages 122 to 125) Page 126 Page 128 p 1 Maijorie A. Drucker -D irect 1 Maijorie A. Drucker - Direct ! 2 California Newspaper Publishers Association? 2 A. Yes, I do. 3 A. That's correct. 3 MR. KRISTAL: I would request a copy 4 Q. Okay. And so was this publicly 4 o f that. 5 available, in other words, it's not like you go 5 Q. It didn't discuss at all any of 6 to a newsstand and pick one up, or maybe you do, 6 subjects that you are going to be testifying s 7 I don't know? 7 about for GE in terms o f the Navy's knowledge o f | 8 A. I think it went to all the California 8 the hazards o f asbestos? 9 newspaper publishers, and, whether it's publicly 9 A. Except in the broad sense it had to 10 available beyond that, I don't know. 10 do with asbestos and asbestos is part o f what \ 11 Q. And how did you get involved in doing 11 I'm looking at. It didn't talk about GE. 12 that? 12 Q. And it didn't look at any historical 13 A. California newspaper publishers, o f 13 perspective, did it? 14 w hich there were many hundred, were looking for 14 A. Not that I recall, except maybe f 15 consultants in the State o f California to assist 15 talking about standards and things like that. \ 16 the newspapers and they had a competition like a 16 Q. You're talking about OSHA standards? 17 request for proposals and they chose a firm from 17 A. Relevant standards that people who 18 northern California and a firm for southern 18 have premises would be very interested in 19 California, and mine was the firm from southern 19 because they're responsible for the safety o f ] 20 California chosen to be a consultant throughout 20 the people within their premises. 21 southern California for the newspapers. So as 21 Q. So you weren't discussing the 22 part o f that 1 suggested and accepted that I 22 standards in a historical context, you were 23 would write a newspaper article for their 23 informing the premises owners what the standards 24 publishers on various health and safety topics. 24 were so if they measured they would know if they 25 Q. And what were the topics you wrote 25 were above or below the current standards? Page 127 Page 129 i 1 Maijorie A. Drucker - Direct 1 Maijorie A. Drucker - Direct 2 for? 2 A. Yes. 3 A. As I recall, there was one column on 3 Q. And somewhere in '76 or that time 4 asbestos, maybe one on indoor air quality, 4 frame? 5 another was an interview with the then chief of 5 A. I would say early seventies. I was in 6 California OSHA, and I don't recall the others. 6 Yale and I was in southern Connecticut, and 7 Q. Whatever the others were, they were 7 there was a newspaper in the southern 8 not involving asbestos? 8 Connecticut area where there were, there was 9 A. As I recall, there was just one on 9 something, it might have been around Earth Day, 10 asbestos. 10 the first Earth Day, which was around going back 11 Q. And what was the topic on asbestos 11 maybe around 1970ish or something, and I think 12 that you wrote the column on? 12 it had to coincide something around then, and it 13 A. Well, to be more specific rd have to 13 was more based on air pollution. 14 look at it, but, what I remember is, in the 14 Q. And this is one column? 15 mid-nineties there was a large earthquake in 15 A. I think it was a series o f a few 16 southern California, and, as a result o f that, a 16 articles during the week. 17 lot o f companies were very, they had heightened 17 Q. Okay. So during a one-week period in 18 awareness about possible asbestos in the 18 the early 1970s you wrote a series o f a few 19 buildings, and, so, this was a column addressing 19 articles; is that right? 20 what they would do as premises owners who are 21 responsible for the safety o f the people within 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. Anything to do with asbestos? 22 their premises and it was addressing, you know, 22 A. Not that I remember. 23 w hat they should consider and how they would get 23 Q. Do you have a copy o f that article? 24 testing and things o f that nature. 24 A. I don't know. 25 Q. Do you have a copy of this column? 25 Q. Td like to request copies if you do. rsB s 33 (Pages 126 to 129 PRIORITY-ONE COURT REPORTING, INC. (718) 983-1234 Page 130 Page 132 1 Marjorie A. Drucker - Direct 1 Marjorie A. Drucker - Direct 2 Talks to professional associations 2 way through my practice. I'm currently a 3 that have been reprinted. Do any of them have to 3 California certified asbestos consultant and 4 do with asbestos? 4 I've done consultation with companies and with 5 A. No, not that I recall. 5 places over 30 years. 6 Q. So if I'm understanding you 6 Q. And let me see if I'm understanding 7 correctly, other than one column for premises 7 what you're saying about asbestos industrial 8 owners who were concerned about asbestos in 8 hygiene surveys. You will go to a location, set 9 buildings after earthquakes in the mid-1990s, 9 up some kind of air sampling monitoring and take 10 you have written nothing about asbestos? 10 the results o f the air sampling and get them 11 A. Well, nothing that was published as 11 analyzed and write a report? 12 in the types of places that you're saying. 12 A. That's one type. There are others. 13 Q. Okay. W hat have you written that's 13 Q. Tell me what the others are? 14 not in that category? 14 A. There are broad surveys that we've 15 A. What's not in that category would be 15 done for bulk samples o f asbestos and various 16 industrial hygiene surveys that I've conducted 16 types o f locations in various types o f locations 17 over 30 years. 17 and policies that I put together now for 18 Q. Right. Anything else? 18 different companies and other types o f entities 19 A. That would be it. 19 so that they could manage asbestos, ju st a broad 20 Q. So other than this one column in the 20 variety o f things that would fall under general 21 m id-1990s and industrial hygiene surveys that 21 EPA and OSHA compliance that different 22 related to asbestos, you have not written 22 organizations would be interested in if they 23 anything about asbestos; is that right? 23 called in an outside consultant, I was involved 24 A. What I recall, yes. 24 in. 25 Q. Okay. Do you have any problem with 25 Q. Nothing having to do with Navy Page 131 1 Marjorie A. Drucker - Direct 2 your memory? I'm asking you seriously. 3 A. I'm giving you my best recollection. 4 Q. I'm ju st asking you if you're aware 5 o f any problem with your memory? 6 A. I'm not aware o f any. 7 Q. When I went for my draft physical 8 many years ago I checked off loss of memory. 9 When the psychiatrist asked me when was the last 10 time I couldn't remember anything, I said I 11 couldn't remember. 12 The industrial hygiene surveys that 13 related to asbestos, were there any industrial 14 hygiene studies solely related to asbestos that 15 you've written? 16 A. O f course, many. 17 Q. When was the first, when was the 18 last, approximately? 19 A. Approximately the first would have 20 been over 32 years ago. 21 Q. Sometime in the early 1970s? 22 A. Maybe even during when I was at 23 Harvard we went and did industrial hygiene 24 surveys, and some would have included asbestos, 25 so that goes back to 1968, '69, and then all the Page 133 1 Marjorie A. Drucker - Direct 2 knowledge o f asbestos or GE's knowledge of 3 asbestos hazards? 4 A. Well, when I was in the Navy, which 5 is part o f my over 30 years, I certainly was 6 doing Navy work, so that would have been part of 7 it. 8 Q. You were doing asbestos air sampling 9 between July o f 1976 and July o f 1977? 10 A. Am ong other things, yes, I did 11 asbestos air sampling. 12 Q. Where did you conduct the asbestos 13 air sampling during that period o f time? 14 A. That was when I was at the Long Beach 15 Naval Shipyard, and I did do the surveys on the 16 Navy ships and in some o f the shops, and it was 17 throughout the Long Beach Naval Shipyard. 18 Q. And was this while there were 19 asbestos products being installed on ships? 20 A. It's my understanding that at that 21 time asbestos products were not being installed, 22 but they were being removed in certain areas. 23 They were still being handled in different 24 manners. 25 Q. So you were measuring asbestos levels PRIORITY-ONE COURT REPORTING. INC. <7181983-1234 34 (Pages 130 to 133) Page 134 Page 136 1 1 Marjorie A. Drucker - Direct l M aqorieA.Drucker -Direct 2 while asbestos was being removed from different 2 vicinity. I didn't mean to imply that they were I 3 areas o f the ship? 3 reapplying asbestos. | 4 A. Yes, that's part o f it, yes, I 4 Q. Right. What types o f ships were you 5 certainly did that. 5 on at that point in time? 6 Q. Well, what else did you do in terms 6 A. I was on a variety o f ships. I do | 7 o f that period o f time at the Long Beach Naval 7 recall a few destroyers, mid, as I recall, there 8 Shipyard involving asbestos surveys? 8 was a very large ship, it might have been some 1 9 A. Your question was narrowed to 9 sort o f a cruiser in for a period o f time. t 10 removing. There were a variety o f activity that 10 Q. Do you know anything about die ships | 11 involved different asbestos. 11 that the four gentlemen whose cases we're here 1 12 Q. Other than removing, what were they? 12 for, w hat ships they were on? i 13 A, Other than removing? 13 A. Other than what they wrote or \ 14 Q. You said they weren't installing them 14 testified to, I only know the names o f them. I I 15 because it was your understanding they weren't 16 being installed at that time, so w hat else other 17 than removing? 15 don't know if you're asking anything beyond that. 16 Q. Okay. So tell me what you've reviewed \ 17 other than what we'll get to, which is the GE 18 A. Well, they may have been doing some 18 documents in terms o f Plaintiffs' specific 19 re-patching in some places, they may have been 19 materials? 20 using certain type o f welding blankets that may 20 A. I reviewed the Plaintiff depositions i 21 have still contained asbestos, you know, people 21 for four gentlemen, Mr. Campa, Mr. Renow, Mr. 22 welding on the ships. 22 Zatz and Mr. Roth. 23 Q. So you had -- 23 Q. Anything else? 24 A. And there may have been some other 25 activities in the shops where there was still 24 A. No. ; 25 Q. Do you have any opinion with respect \ Page 135 Page 137 r 1 Marjorie A. Drucker - Direct 1 M aqorie A. Drucker - Direct | 2 some asbestos materials. 3 Q. I'm asking what you recollect doing 2 to any o f the testimony that they rendered? 1 3 A. With regard to what? \ 4 with respect to asbestos, not what may have been 4 Q. Anything. | 5 done, okay? 5 MR. SPEZIALI: We're not going to ask ! 6 So do you recollect doing asbestos 6 her to address the specific Plaintiffs <. 7 air sampling when there was some kind o f 7 testimony. 8 re-patching going on? 9 A. As I said, because o f the different 8 MR. KRISTAL: Good. Then we can move | 9 on. 1 10 types o f work that's done on a ship when it's in 10 Q. You got your M aster's o f Science 11 a shipyard, it's in for repair and renovation, 11 degree in 1969 from Harvard University, right? j 12 yes, I recall having done some work while they 12 A. Yes. 13 were re-patching while they were possibly 13 Q. D id you have to write a thesis? i 14 disturbing. That's what my job was, to test the 14 A. No. 15 air and to get the measurements and make 15 Q. W hat did that program involve, how 16 recommendations. 16 many credits? 17 Q. And are you saying that the Navy was 17 A. I don't remember the number o f I 18 using asbestos-containing products to re-patch 18 credits, but tw o full years o f school, and it 19 an area on the ship? 19 was two full years o f multi-disciplinary 20 A. I didn't mean to imply that, no. When 20 training in environmental health science, 21 the ship comes in for certain types o f repair 21 environmental health, epidemiological, 22 and renovation, when a ship comes in, certain 22 biostatistics, legal aspects, multi-disciplinary 23 areas may possibly be disturbed, and, so, in 23 program in industrial hygiene, and it was two 24 re-patching it, there may have been areas o f 24 full years. 25 still asbestos-containing materials in the 25 Q. And you became a certified industrial PRIORITY-ONE COURT REPORTING, INC. (718) 983-1234 35 (Pages 134 to 137) Page 138 Page 140 i 1 Marjorie A. Drucker - Direct I Marjorie A. Drucker - Direct 2 hygienist in air pollution aspects and the 2 A. I think that the M asters degree 3 comprehensive aspects o f industrial hygiene in 3 counted for a certain amount of experience. It 4 1976? 4 might have been applicable to, I don't know, I 5 A. Yes. 5 don't recall. It goes back a few years. 6 Q. W hat qualifies one to take --strike 6 Q. What did you do for the ILO? 7 that. 7 A. When I was at the ILO, that's the 8 Is there a test that you take to 8 International Labor Office in Geneva, 9 become a certified industrial hygienist? 9 Switzerland, I was hired to, my total title was 10 A. Y es, there is. There's a veiy 10 specialist --wait. M y title was industrial 11 exacting test. W hen I took it, there were two 11 hygiene official. I was hired under a short-term 12 full days o f testing. It's my understanding now 12 contract. I took an approved leave o f absence 13 people only take one full day o f testing, but, 13 from the EPA in Boston. I went to Geneva. I was 14 when I took it there were tw o full days o f tests 14 hired to write what was called the Model Code o f j 15 that you had to take, but, before you're allowed 15 Industrial Hygiene Regulations pulling together 16 to sit for the test you had to meet minimum 16 all o f the state-of-the-art industrial hygiene 17 requirements such as schooling, practical 17 regulations throughout the world so if a country 18 experience and sit for the exam. 18 were to develop an OSHA type program they could 19 Q. What schooling did you need? 19 use this as enabling legislation. 20 A. You needed, and this is going back a 20 Q. When in '75 did you do that? 21 little in time, but, you needed a minimum o f a 21 A. I did that from about July through 22 Bachelor o f Science degree in science, and, as I 22 December o f 1975. 23 recall, five years experience in the field 23 Q. And when in '71 did you start at GE, 24 before you could sit for the test, as well as a 24 when in 1970? 25 recommendation by somebody who was also a 25 A. I started in July o f 1971. Page 139 1 Marjorie A. Drucker - Direct 2 certified industrial hygienist at the time. 3 Q. Five years experience in what field? 4 A. That would be related to industrial 5 hygiene and/or air pollution. I got both 6 certifications. 7 Q. And when you say five years 8 experience in a field related to industrial 9 hygiene, for example, did your time when you 10 were an instructor in public health at Yale for 11 two years count in that five years? 12 A. Yes, that w as counted by the American 13 Board o f Industrial Hygienists, yes. 14 Q. And when you worked for the EPA as a 15 research and development program specialist that 16 counted in your time? 17 A. According to the board, yes, they 18 looked at all my background experience and 19 determined I was eligible to sit. 20 Q. So having or not having a Master's 21 degree meant nothing in terms o f sitting for the 22 CIH exam? 23 A. I don't think it means nothing. 24 Q. Well, it may mean you could have a 25 better pass rate, but it wasn't a requirement? Page 141 1 Marjorie A. Drucker - Direct 2 Q. When did you leave GE? 3 A. February o f 1972. 4 Q. Why did you leave GE? 5 A. 1 left GE because the travel became 6 very excessive. When I was hired, there were 7 seven plants that were supposed to be in our 8 division. Our vice president got promoted and 9 took his whole staff with him and we ended up 10 with 44 plants in our group and the travel ju st 11 became very excessive. 12 Q. You worked as an industrial hygienist 13 for six months? 14 A. I was there for seven months. As it 15 turned out, it was when OSHA first came in. It 16 was a very opportune time. It was particularly 17 relevant to what I'm doing now. 18 Q. And what were your responsibilities 19 at GE for the seven-month period you were there? 20 A. My responsibilities at GE were to do 21 industrial hygiene and environmental control, 22 and, essentially what I did is, I went around, I 23 w ent to at least 20 to 30 company locations. Our 24 plants were located in the Northeast and 25 throughout the central United States, and I PRIORITY-ONE COURT REPORTING, INC. (718) 983-1234 36 (Pages 138 to 141) Page 142 Page 144 5 1 Marjorie A. Drucker -D irect 1 Maijorie A. Drucker - Direct | 2 would do industrial hygiene surveys, walk 2 yes, I had responsibility for 44 GE locations, 1 3 through surveys, sometimes monitoring of a 3 and, then, as I said, I had, I reported to f 4 different nature and make recommendations and 4 management, and I also had dotted line reporting 5 provide basically as a consultant inside the 5 through a medical physician with whom, o f 6 company to GE, and, again, that's when EPA and 6 course, I consulted with on a frequent basis. J 7 OSHA first, you know, came into effect. 7 Q. What were all these other GE I 8 Q. And you list here General Electric 8 industrial hygienists doing if you had | 9 Corporation, Bridgeport, Connecticut. Were you 9 responsibility for 44 plants? 10 stationed in Bridgeport? 10 A. Well, GE has hundreds and hundreds o f ? 11 A. Our office was physically located in 11 plants throughout the country, and, there are 12 Bridgeport, but the plants were all over. 12 certainly large plants o f long-standing that had 13 Q. How many industrial hygienists were 13 their own industrial hygiene people, but, \ 14 at GE at that time? 14 throughout my travels I m et industrial hygiene 15 A. I don't know how many. I know that 15 safety and medical people almost everywhere I 16 there were m any and GE has been on the forefront 16 went throughout GE. | 17 o f health and safety and they had many 17 Q. How many GE industrial hygienists 18 industrial hygienists throughout many o f the 18 were there approximately when you were there? 19 facilities I visited and throughout other 19 A. My contact, I m et many at the annual 20 locations of the country because I had an 20 health conference, and, I've certainly kept up \ 21 opportunity to attend one o f the annual medical 21 with them. But as far as people I was more l 22 conferences at GE while I was there. They also 22 familiar with in my areas, that would be in the 23 had many occupational physicians in many 23 Northeast and the Central states. I don't want 24 locations, so there were many. 24 to guess, but I'd give you an estimate o f maybe | 25 Q. Is it fair to say you were one o f the 25 15 or so. And that's ju st for a part o f the Page 143 Page 145 i 1 Marjorie A. Drucker - Direct 1 Marjorie A. Drucker -D irect 2 lowest folks on the totem pole? 2 country that I was familiar with. 3 A. I don't know what you mean by that. 3 Q. Again, without holding you to an f 4 Q. Well, you started at GE in July o f 4 exact number, in terms o f the total number o f 5 '71. Y ou said there were many industrial 5 industrial hygienists, are you talking 50,100, 6 hygienists and many occupational medicine 6 500 for GE during the time period you were 7 physicians, or whatever you just said. It would 7 there? 8 show you were not a senior person, right? 8 A. I don't know. \ 9 A. I was a newcomer, but I was certainly 9 Q. I'm ju st asking you for your best ; 10 highly welcomed and actually made many 10 estimate in terms o f orders o f magnitude? 11 professional friendships with the industrial 11 MR. SPEZIALI: Let me object. You're 12 hygiene medical people that I kept up with until 12 asking for a guess. 13 very recently. So it was a very exciting time. 13 Q. You were at this meeting? 14 Q. How many industrial hygienists at GE 14 A. Not everybody came. I was in the 15 were above you? 15 meetings with a lot o f them and a lot o f medical 16 A. Well, in my group I was the only 16 people. 17 one at the time, and that group was the 44 17 Q. And approximately how many people 18 plants. I worked with the management people, 18 were at that meeting? 19 and, then, I also worked with a medical 19 A. I don't recall. 20 physician. 20 Q. Okay. Is there any industrial 21 Q. Let me see if I'm understanding. 21 hygienist that you know o f at GE that spent less 22 You're saying that you were in a group that 22 time at GE than you did? 23 consisted of, your group had responsibility for 23 A. You mean less time? 24 44 GE plants? 24 Q. Less than seven months. 25 A. The way we were organizationally, 25 A. Less than seven months, I don't know. PRIORITY-ONE COURT REPORTING, INC. (718) 983-1234 37 (PaieT 42 to 145: Page 146 1 M arjorie A. Drucker - Direct 1 2 Many o f the people who I met there back in the 2 Marjorie A. Drucker - Direct Q. Anybody else? Page 148 1 3 seventies I ended up talking to quite recently 3 A. There were some other people, a 4 and they stayed w ith the company 40 years, a 4 gentleman named Vito Sclerito (phonetic). 5 long time. 5 Q. When you say "some other people," you 6 Q. There are GE industrial hygienists 6 mentioned in the context o f meeting and speaking 7 that are alive who you've spoken to recently who 7 with the current corporate industrial hygienist 8 have been at GE for decades? 8 that you had met and spoken with other GE 9 A. Yes, there are GE hygienists who have 9 industrial hygienists. So one o f those is Mark 10 been w ith the com pany for decades and some who 10 Strife? 11 are retired w ho have been with the company for 11 A. Yes. 12 decades. 12 Q. Anybody else? 13 Q. And some who are not retired? 13 A. The corporate industrial hygienist's 14 A. Yes. 14 name is Kurt Kruger (phonetic), and he's the 15 Q. And on what occasion did you get 15 gentleman that I was referring to before. 16 together and speak to these former GE industrial 16 Q. Kurt Kruger? 17 hygienists who had been at GE for decades? 17 A. Kurt Kruger. 18 A. Well, over the years I was very 18 Q. Okay. When did you last speak to Kurt 19 active in the Am erican Industrial Hygiene 19 Kruger? 20 Association and attended our annual conferences, 20 A. I met with Kurt around January or so 21 and, over the years I would ju st see the 21 o f this year. 22 industrial hygienists at the various meetings 22 Q. Did it have anything to do with your 23 for over 20 ,2 5 years, talk to them, and, most 23 work that you were doing with respect to GE in 24 recently, I had the opportunity to meet with the 24 this case or generally? 25 corporate industrial hygienist for General 25 A. Oh, it had to do with my work in Page 147 1 M aijorie A. Drucker - Direct 2 Electric and many o f the other, some o f the 3 other industrial hygienists who are currently 4 with the company. 5 Q. And who is the corporate industrial 6 hygienist for GE currently? 7 A. I'm sorry. I don't remember his name 8 right now. It will come back to me. 9 Q. Okay. It's a man, I take it? 10 A. It's a gentleman, yes. 11 Q. And you m et with him and have spoken 12 with him recently? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. How many decades has he been with GE? 15 A. He's new to the company. I don't know 16 how m any years. I don't think it's a decade. 17 Q. Certainly more than you, he's been at 18 GE as an industrial hygienist longer than you 19 had been at GE? 20 A. That's my understanding. 21 Q. And the other GE industrial 22 hygienists you've spoken to recently, can you 23 give me their names? 24 A. I've spoken to an industrial 25 hygienist whose name is M ark Strife (phonetic). Page 149 1 Marjorie A. Drucker - Direct 2 general for GE, yes. 3 Q. Other than asbestos litigation, what 4 other work are you doing generally for GE? 5 A. You asked in your last question was 6 it referring to these cases or for my work with 7 GE generally. That's how I answered that. 8 Q. Right. 9 A. Meaning, that it's for my general 10 work with GE. 11 Q. Which is limited solely to being 12 retained for asbestos litigation? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. In other words, you're not doing 15 something -- 16 A. I'd say yes, right, with regard to 17 asbestos. 18 Q. With regard to asbestos litigation. 19 What I mean is, you're not consulting with GE 20 generally as an industrial hygienist now on any 21 subject other than asbestos litigation? 22 A. I'm not a lawyer. I sit here as an 23 industrial hygienist. So my understanding is I 24 consult on the general subject of asbestos. 25 W hether it's all related to litigation, I don't PRIORITY-ONE COURT REPORTING. INC. (7181983-1234 38 (Pages 146 to 149) Page 150 Page 152 ; 1 Marjorie A. Drucker - Direct 1 Marjorie A. Drucker -D irect l 2 know. 2 helpful. He was able to describe the corporate 3 Q. W ell, what lawyers have you discussed 3 set up in terms o f safety and environmental 4 anything about GE with other than Mr. Speziali 4 throughout the company and also to relate that 5 and whoever else you mentioned, Mr. Kapshandy. 5 he had tried to locate some records going back s 6 Who else? 6 over the years and could give me an update or | 7 A. W hat other lawyers have I spoken to? 7 briefing on that kind o f information. 8 Q. Yes. 8 Q. Okay. Who else was present when you 9 A. AtGE? 9 met with Mr. Kruger? 10 Q. Yes. 10 A. When I met w ith Mr. Kruger, Mr. 11 A. One attorney, his name is Henry King, 11 Kapshandy was there and there was some, it was a 12 and, I'm sorry, the name will come back to me. 12 former GE physician present, a gentleman named ) 13 Q. Okay. Have you billed GE for any work 13 Steve Hampton who's been with the company almost | 14 that you've done that is not related to asbestos 14 50 years as far as safety, and some other GE | 15 litigation? 15 attorneys, I think, were present. 16 A. Again, Tm not a lawyer. As far as I 16 Q. And where was this meeting? 17 know I'm working on asbestos and GE's histoiy 17 A. It was in Fairfield, Connecticut. 18 and knowledge. If it's all related to 18 Q. Where? 19 litigation, it is. I f it's not wholly, I don't 19 A. A t GE corporate headquarters. 20 know. I'm ju st giving you my best answer. 20 Q. And I take it you felt this meeting 1 21 Q. Other than the project that you've 21 with these GE employees and lawyers for GE was 22 been working on that you're testifying here 22 somewhat important to your work in this case? 23 today about, you're not doing any other work for 23 A. I think Mr. Kruger was very helpful 24 GE; is that fair to say? 24 and the other people in providing background and | 25 A. Yes. 25 histoiy going back over the safety and health i Page 151 Page 153 l 1 M aijorie A. Drucker - Direct 1 Marjorie A. Drucker -D irect ' 2 Q. It's all related to asbestos 3 litigation? 4 A. That's what you ju st said. 2 activities throughout the history o f General 3 Electric. They've been very active and involved 4 and on the forefront o f health and safety. 5 Q. Right. You don't know whether that's 6 all related to asbestos litigation or not? 7 A. I'm trying to answer your question 8 wholly and truthfully. As far as I know, it's 9 all related to asbestos. I don't know whether it 10 all has to do w ith litigation. 5 Q. Was this an interview that you were 6 conducting? Tell me the format o f the meeting 7 whereby you were getting information from Mr. 8 Kruger, the former GE physician and Mr. Hampton 9 and any other lawyers? 10 A. There might have been other people 11 Q. Well, what else do you think it has 12 to do with? 11 present. That's what I'm remembering right now. 12 Q. Okay. 13 A. General background on GE, their 14 history with asbestos. 13 A. I would say it's a conversation, 14 interview type o f discussion and I was free to 15 Q. For purposes o f some GE museum or 16 archives or related to litigation? 17 A. M ost likely it's related to 18 litigation, but, again, I don't know all the ins 19 and outs. 20 Q. W hat did you speak to Mr. Kruger 21 about with respect to your work on the GE 22 asbestos project, whether it relates to 23 litigation or not? 24 A. Well, in general, Mr. Kruger, who's a 25 certified industrial hygienist, was very 15 ask any questions and I did. 16 Q. Okay. W as Mr. Hobson there, David 17 Hobson? 18 A. No. 19 Q. Was Dr. Betts there? 20 A. No. 21 Q. Did you take notes? 22 A. I took some notes. 23 Q. What did you do with those notes? 24 A. Well, what I do is, I write them into 25 a listing o f different people that I've spoken PRIORITY-ONE COURT REPORTING, INC. (718) 983-1234 39 (Pages 150 to 153) Page 154 Page 156 - 1 M aijorieA.Drucker -Direct 1 Marjorie A. Drucker - Direct 2 to, and, then I, after I'm finished with them, 1 2 other words, such and such a date met with so 3 get rid o f them. 3 and so and so and so and substances o f what was 4 Q. So you took notes in longhand, or on 4 spoken and another dates and met with so and so? 5 a laptop or how? 5 A. Yes, I have it written in 6 A. Longhand. 6 chronological order. 7 Q. On sheets o f paper, I take it? 7 Q. Is it stored on a computer or hard 8 A. Yes. 8 copy or what? 9 Q. And then you did what with these 9 A. It's hard copy. 10 notes? 10 Q. And where physically do you keep it? 11 A. What I did, you know, I had an 11 Is it in a folder? Is in a drawer? 12 opportunity to speak to many people throughout the 12 A. Physically right now I think it's on 13 course o f this project, and I consolidated my 13 a table. 14 notes and wrote things down. 14 Q. I know. In the normal course o f your 15 Q. Okay. When you say consolidated 15 business -- 16 notes, did you write like a memo putting, you 16 A. In the course o f my business? 17 know, everything together? 17 Q. --Do you keep it in a file cabinet 18 A. I keep a listing o f the people that I 18 under GE? W hat do you do with this? 19 have spoken to and the places that I've gone 19 A. I ju st have it as a document. 20 with regard to the general project that I'm 20 Q. A running document. Okay. How many 21 doing for GE on history. 21 pages is it, approximately? 22 Q. Okay. 22 A. All together with an attachment about 23 A. In areas o f asbestos over time. 23 12,14 pages perhaps. 24 Q. Where is said listing? 24 Q. Does it contain in part information 25 A. I have a copy o f the listing. 25 that you're relying on for your opinions in this Page 155 Page 157 1 Marjorie A. Drucker - Direct 1 Marjorie A. Drucker - Direct 2 Q. Good. I'd like to see it. 3 MR. KRISTAL: Do you have it? 4 MR. KAPSHANDY: No. 2 case, in these cases? 3 A. I'd say that it certainly, yes, it's 4 giving me a background about the long history of 5 MR. KRISTAL: I can't have it? 6 MR. KAPSHANDY: I didn't say you 7 couldn't have it. She wasn't asked to bring 8 it. She said past tense. W e could get it. 9 MR. KRISTAL: All right. Thank you. 10 Q. Is there any substance in this 11 listing? By that I mean, other than names and 12 when you spoke to people? There must have been 13 notes on substantive information, right? 14 A. I hope so, yes. 15 Q. And that's in this listing? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. Okay. Is there any other document by 18 any other name whereby you've incorporated any 19 o f your notes other than this listing? 20 A. No. 21 Q. And would the listing help you recall 22 who it was that you spoke to for the people that 23 you don't remember? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. Okay. And is it a chronology, in 5 health and safety at GE and the program that 6 they've had for so many years, sure, yes. 7 Q. Other than this meeting January 4th 8 with the folks that you mentioned and the prior 9 meeting September 3rd, have there been other 10 meetings with other GE folks between September 11 3rd and today wherein you were asking questions 12 and speaking to people about the histoiy o f GE 13 with respect to the safety and health issues? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. Okay. How many meetings have you had? 16 A. How many meetings have I had with 17 safety and health people? 18 Q. Yes, from GE currently or formally in 19 which you were getting information from them 20 which is the subject o f your testimony? 21 A. I have to refer to the list, but, and 22 I don't want to guess, but I'd estimate 20 or 23 so, 25. 24 Q. Twenty or 25 meetings? I ju st want to 25 make sure you're not answering number of PRIORITY-ONE COURT REPORTING, INC. (718) 983-1234 40 (Pages 154 to 157) Page 158 Page 160 f 1 M aijorie A. Drucker - Direct 1 M aijorie A. Drucker -Direct i 2 people. 2 o f those claims for asbestos since that time 3 A. Well, if you were counting each 3 period. 4 person as a meeting. 4 Q. So GE as far as you know had no prior 5 Q. We have about ten people in this 5 records, workers' comp records? ; 6 room. If we were meeting, this is one meeting. 6 A. It was my understanding that GE did \ 7 I'm asking you how many meetings you had? 7 have, before the computer program, they had a 8 A. I'm trying to explain. If I m et with a 8 card file that was kept by their administrator, | 9 person, that was a meeting. If I met with 9 their third-party administrator, and there were 10 another person not in the same room, that was a 10 cards going back to the forties and fifties up l 11 separate meeting. 11 through the eighties. There were tens o f 5 12 Q. Right. 12 thousands o f these cards, and, so, there was a i 13 A. So I'm estimating. Some people I met 13 program that w as in existence before the 14 w ith more than once. I don't w ant to guess. I'd 14 computerized system. 15 say 25. 15 Q. Okay. Have you seen any o f those 16 Q. In order to answer accurately you 16 records with respect to claims o f 17 w ould need, in fairness, to look at this list? 17 asbestos-related disease brought by GE workers? 18 A. Yes. 18 A. Yes, I've seen the records going 1 19 Q. Okay. You had mentioned with respect 19 back, again, from the card file going back to f 20 to the one meeting on January 4th in which Mr. 20 the forties or fifties up to the eighties, and I | 21 Kruger was present that he was going to try to 21 have seen them, yes. 22 locate some records o f some sort? 22 Q. W hat is the earliest claim that 23 A. No. I didn't say January 4th. 23 you've been able to see brought by a GE employee 1 24 Q. I'm sony. 24 for an asbestos-related disease? i 25 A. I said January or so. 25 A. W ell, the earliest claim I saw was in i Page 159 Page 161 i 1 Marjorie A. Drucker - Direct 1 M aijorie A. Drucker - Direct 2 Q. I meant January '0 4 .1 apologize. 2 1971. 3 A. Okay. 3 Q. W hat was the nature of the 4 Q. The meeting you had in January of 4 allegation? \ 5 2004 in which you mentioned Mr. Kruger was going 5 A. I don't know what you mean by , 6 to try to locate some records, did he locate 6 "allegation." It appeared that -- 7 records? 7 Q. Does the record contain, the record 8 A. Well, of a nature, yes. GE is a 8 that you're talking about contain what it was 9 highly decentralized company. It was 9 that the claimant was claiming? 10 incorporated in the late 1890's and has bought 10 A. Yes. W hat it says on the card for the 11 and sold hundreds if not thousands o f businesses 11 case in 1971 is for asbestosis. 12 all over, and, he attempted to look for records, 12 Q. And does it say what the person's 13 but, basically, what he found is that records 14 are kept at the local businesses that had 15 conducted the business. But I do recall that he 16 had run some sort o f a general search on a 17 computerized workers' compensation program and 18 had run something like that and he was, that was 13 employment was? 14 A. On the card it doesn't say what the 15 person's employment was, no. 16 Q. W ere you able to ascertain that from 17 any other source? 18 A. I was not able to do that with 19 all he was able to locate. 19 certainty, no. 20 Q. Okay. You're talking about he was 20 Q. Okay. How about with any level o f 21 looking for, if I'm understanding you, claims of 22 asbestos-related disease by GE workers 23 historically in part? 24 A. The computer program only went back 25 to about 1990. So it would have been a listing 21 finding out any information? 22 A. M y looking at the records it just 23 isn't clear to m e what the gentleman was doing. 24 Q. W hat plant was the person working in? 25 A. He was in Fitchburg, Massachusetts. PRIORITY-ONE COURT REPORTING, INC. (718) 983-1234 41 (Pages 158 to 161' Page 162 Page 164 5 1 Maijorie A. Drucker - Direct 1 Marjorie A. Drucker - Direct 2 Q. Working in the turbine plant? 2 to say? 3 A. I don't think turbines were made in 3 A. Yes. 4 Fitchburg, so, again, I don't know what the 4 Q. Is there anything else contained in 5 gentleman was doing. 5 the listings document other than a summary of 6 Q. Do you know what was being 6 your notes from meetings that you had, in other 7 manufactured at Fitchburg at the location where 7 words, if you were reading a document and you 8 the gentleman worked by GE? 8 took notes on it or you were looking at a 9 A. No, I don't remember. 9 workers' comp index card and investigating that 10 Q. Is it fair to say asbestos was being 10 case and took notes on it, where would those 11 used somewhere in that plant? 11 notes be? 12 A. We don't know, we don't know what he 12 A. I don't keep notes. What I have is in 13 was doing. W e know there were shipyards in the 13 that listing. 14 area he m ay have worked for. W e don't know what 14 Q. Okay. So there's no other document in 15 the gentleman w as doing before GE, how long he 15 which you summarize your notes and then threw 16 had been there. It's not clear. 16 them away? 17 Q. I'm talking about your research into 17 A. No, there's no other document. 18 that particular claim. The person must have 18 Q. It's not a trick question. I'm just 19 claimed some asbestos exposure at GE; is it fair 19 trying to find out. 20 to say? I'm not saying it's correct or not 20 A. I'm trying to answer. No. 21 correct. I'm ju st asking it wouldn't be, there 21 Q. Okay. Are you saying you didn't take 22 wouldn't be a record unless there was a claim 22 notes except when you were at meetings on any of 23 against GE? 23 the work that you did? 24 A. All I know is what's on his little 24 A. Well, I took notes when I was talking 25 card. They were like three-by-five cards. It 25 to people which I told you I incorporated into Page 163 1 Marjorie A. Drucker -Direct 2 says the person's name and where he worked and 3 it says asbestosis. 4 Q. And did you do any other research 5 into that claim, in other words, ask people 6 about it, ask people to ask people about it? 7 A. Yes, I recall that I did, and I, I 8 don't recall having come up with any more 9 definitive information about this case. 10 Q. Whatever information you came up with 11 on that particular case, would that have been in 12 the listing o f documents you referenced? 13 A. I don't think so, no. 14 Q. Okay. Is there a separate note that 15 you took on things that you did for this 16 particular project for GE not involving meetings 17 with people that would be reflected in this 18 listing? 19 A. That would not be involved in the 20 listings? 21 Q. Let me try to clarify. My 22 understanding o f the listing document, this 12 23 or 13 page or however long page document, is 24 that it's a chronological summary o f your notes 25 o f various meetings that you had; is that fair Page 165 1 Marjorie A. Drucker Direct 2 my listings, and, occasionally, I keep notes on 3 to-do items, and, then, when I finish with them 4 I scratch them off and I discard them. So those 5 are the kind o f notes I keep. 6 Q. And when you're doing the task o f the 7 to-do notes you don't take notes at all, in 8 other words, at some point you physically had an 9 index card with a 1971 workers' comp claim for 10 asbestosis out o f Fitchburg, Massachusetts? 11 A. I've seen a copy o f it, yes. 12 Q. M y question is, did you take notes 13 about that? 14 A. No. 15 Q. Did you take notes when you read any 16 articles? 17 A. No. 18 Q. And you have no notes at all, zero, 19 for anything other than the conversations you've 20 had with people? 21 A. And to-do notes which I mentioned to 22 you. 23 Q. Right. 24 A. No. 25 Q. Okay. Other than Mr. Kruger locating 42 (Pages 162 to 165) PRIORITY-ONE COURT REPORTING, INC. (718) 983-1234 Page 166 Page 168 ? 1 Marjorie A. Drucker - Direct 1 M aijorie A. Drucker - Direct 2 or attempting to locate the various workers' 2 hygienist? | 3 comp documents were there any other records he 3 A. He was a, his specialty was safety f 4 provided you or was looking for? 4 management. He's written many editions o f a book 5 A. Well, I think he provided some recent 5 called "Safety Management." In fact, five 5 6 documents on general, these were current GE 6 editions. He was the head person at GE for 7 corporate policies relating to their current 7 safety industrial hygiene and medical from the | 8 environmental programs on asbestos and asbestos 8 mid-fifties through the sixties. I 9 management. So other than the very recent type 9 Q. And whatever the substance o f your 10 documents and this listing, that's what he 10 conversations were with him would be contained 11 provided me. 11 in the listings? \ 12 Q. Okay. And the recent type documents 12 A. Yes. i 13 with the current policies, was that something 13 Q. Okay. Anyone else you remember? jj 14 that in any w ay is informing your opinion in 14 A. I spoke to many industrial hygienists I 15 this case? 15 who I m et when I w as with the company and kept 16 A. W ell, I think it shows it's part o f 16 up with throughout the years at the American 17 the continuum. GE has been on the forefront o f 17 Industrial Hygiene Association meetings. I have ? 18 health and safety for over 80 years, and it ju st 18 spoken to on a few occasions two o f the other 1 19 shows their, currently what their programs are, 19 gentlemen who worked at Bridgeport, a certified 20 which is very impressive. 20 industrial hygienist named Leo Feliu who was 1 21 Q. Okay. Other than Mr. Kruger, Mr. 21 with the company in the sixties, a certified l 22 Hampton, the GE physician who, the former GE 22 industrial hygienist Dale Culp, C-U-L-P. He was j 23 physician whose name you don't recall, do you 23 a student o f mine at Yale, and, when I left I 24 recall the names o f any other people you met 24 referred him and he took my job at GE in 1 25 that you interviewed from GE who were current or 25 Bridgeport. I have spoken to him on a couple o f } Page 167 Page 169 ?: 1 Marjorie A. Drucker - Direct 1 M aijorie A. Drucker - Direct 2 former GE employees regarding this subject? 2 occasions recently, and then there were many 3 A. I did remember the physician from the 3 others. 4 meeting in Fairfield, doctor Dennis Stenpin, 4 Q. Others from the, how far back were | 5 S-T-E-N-P-I-N. And your question was other 6 people? 7 Q. Yes. 8 A. N ot at that meeting, but in general? 9 Q. Yes. 5 some o f the people? Obviously, Dr. Grimaldi goes 6 back I think you said to the mid-sixties? 7 A. Dr. Grimaldi goes back to the 8 fifties. There's a gentleman named Arnold Rathje 9 who's a certified industrial hygienist. He was 10 A. I had the opportunity to meet and 10 in Cleveland but serviced a lot o f locations. I \ 11 speak with on many occasions a Dr. Jack Grimaldi 11 kept up with him over the years. He goes back to 12 who was the head o f safety and industrial 12 the 1950s. r 13 hygiene and environmental for GE going back to 13 Q. Can you spell his name? We need to 14 the 1950s through the sixties, and, I met with 14 get an accurate record. 15 Dr. Grimaldi twice and I've spoken to him on the 15 A. R-A-T-H-J-E. The gentleman I 16 phone on several occasions. 16 mentioned to you before, Steve Hampton, he goes 17 Q. Could you spell that last name for 18 us? 17 back to about 1950, as well, and he was a 18 chemist involved in a lot o f safety activity 19 A. Sure. G-R-I-M-A-L-D-I. 19 over the years, but there were many other 20 Q. Was it a doctor? 21 A. Yes, he's a Ph.D., Dr. Jack Grimaldi. 22 Q. And is he currently with GE or former 23 GE? 24 A. He's former GE. He's retired. 25 Q. Okay. And he was an industrial 20 people. 21 Q. Were these meetings or interviews 22 combinations with and without GE attorneys 23 there, or were they all with GE attorneys in 24 terms o f litigation? 25 A. No. I was free, I did a lot o f the PRIORITY-ONE COURT REPORTING, INC. (718) 983-1234 43 (Pages 166 to 169) Page 170 1 M arjorie A. Drucker - Direct 1 2 interviews on my own. A lot o f the interviews 2 3 with people were over the phone. So it was just 3 4 me talking to the people, and, Dr. Grimaldi I 4 5 met with him at length one time alone and spoke 5 6 with him m any tim es alone over the phone. So I'd 6 7 say for the m ost part it was alone. 7 8 Q. Okay. You mentioned the workers' comp 8 9 records. Y ou mentioned some other documents, the 9 10 recent policies. We had the Alice Hamilton 10 11 documents and we'll mark them in a little while. 11 12 Any other categories o f documents that you have 12 13 obtained and reviewed pursuant to your work in 13 14 these cases and generally with respect to GE and 14 15 asbestos, in other w ords, were you shown maybe 15 16 drawings from GE, o r technical manuals or any 16 17 kind o f G E documents other than what you have 17 18 mentioned and the Alice Hamilton series from the 18 19 1920s? 19 20 A. A re w e talking in general or 20 21 specifically w ith regard to this? I missed that. 21 22 Q. W e're talking about anything. 22 23 M R. SPEZIALI: In other words, in 23 24 these cases, Jerry, or other projects she's 24 25 worked on? 25 Page 172 Marjorie A. Drucker - Direct sometime. She's been offered, and nobody has taken her up on it, because she has knowledge o f corporate documents. And because, frankly, I don't know exactly how far plaintiffs in these cases are going to go, I don't know what subjects. I know about Alice Hamilton. I don't know about others. So I felt the best thing to do is present her as an expert here on industrial hygiene with the idea that we would try to address specific corporate documents if they come up, and, I know only about Alice Hamilton right now. I hope that clarifies a little bit. So the project really was not with respect to these cases. MR. KRISTAL: I f I'm understanding, Ms. Drucker is not being produced here as the most knowledgable person about General Electric hygiene or otherwise, she's being produced as an expert? MR. SPEZIALI: She's being produced in these cases as an expert in industrial hygiene, particularly as to published Page 171 Page 173 1 M arjorie A. Drucker - Direct 1 Marjorie A. Drucker - Direct 2 MR. KRISTAL: That's what I'm not 2 literature and some o f the things Dr. Betts 3 understanding. 3 has showed her as to the Navy, but she's 4 MR. SPEZIALI: Yes. 4 going to address Alice Hamilton because 5 Q. M y understanding of the project 5 that's sort o f veiy published and very 6 you've been working on is GE historical 6 public. 7 knowledge o f asbestos, one general project that 7 MR. KRISTAL: Okay. 8 happens to relate to these cases? 8 (Whereupon, a discussion is held o ff 9 M R. SPEZIALI: Let me clarify, Jerry. 10 GE finds itself in a situation, and it's 9 the record.) 10 MR. SPEZIALI: Let me mention one more 11 not a secret, it's in other cases around 11 thing. Without question if documents come 12 the country, obviously, and we find ourself 12 in evidence, GE specific corporate 13 in a situation where it's a big company and 13 documents come into evidence that I feel 14 an old company and its involvement with 14 need to be addressed through a GE witness I 15 asbestos is relevant in lots o f different 15 will. I know it doesn't help you for 16 w ays throughout the country. GE did not up 16 today's deposition. So I can only be as 17 until recently have a 30B6 witness on the 17 fair as I can be. I'm going to tell you in 18 general subject what do you know about 18 advance I may have her address it. You do 19 asbestos? They didn't have that. 19 what you need to do. If you need more 20 And they are not necessarily for the 20 depositions. I don't know what you're 21 purpose o f New York litigation, but there 21 putting in. I don't know your case in 22 are places in the country we are required 23 to produce a witness. She was hired for 24 that purpose. She has yet to testify, but 25 she will be testifying in the future 22 chief. 23 I have deposed Dr. Kauzman (phonetic) 24 on three or four occasions, and, as far as 25 I can tell he has nothing bad to say about PRIORITY-ONE COURT REPORTING, INC. (718) 983-1234 44 (Pages 170 to 173) Page 174 1 M aijorie A. Drucker - Direct 1 M aijorie A. Drucker - Dir 2 GE. But he's your witness. Perhaps he will 2 breadth o f the spectrum as mucl 3 have something different to say some day 3 what he did. 4 and I need to address it. That's the best I 4 Q. And your knowledge ana y ^ 5 can do. I'm shooting in the dark. 5 understanding o f GE's industrial hygiene program 6 MR. KRISTAL: Gotcha. 6 from your interviews o f these people depends on | 7 Q. Is it fair to say Dr. Grimaldi has 7 how accurate their information is, correct? 8 more knowledge about GE industrial hygiene than 8 A. Well, you know, fortunately in this i 9 you do, having been there for a long time? 9 project there have been a lot of cross checks. t 10 A. Well, Dr. Grimaldi certainly in his 10 There have ju st been a lot o f ways to cross 11 tim e period is rich with information or history 11 check information and various ways through 12 o f GE in the fifties and sixties, o f course. 12 meetings with different people through documents 13 Q. So for that time period he certainly 13 that I had the opportunity to review through 14 has m ore knowledge than you? 14 thousands o f industrial hygiene measurements and | 15 A. For that time period he has a lot of 15 books and other documents through visits through 16 information to share, yes. 16 going to the Radcliffe and Harvard Library. So i 17 Q. I'm talking about compared to you he 17 there have been a lot o f cross checks o f this 18 has m ore knowledge on that subject in that time 18 project. It's an ongoing project, but... 19 period? 19 Q. A work in progress. The thousands of 20 A. He certainly imparted a lot o f good 20 industrial hygiene surveys, what are you talking \ 21 information to me. 21 about? 22 Q. And Mr. Hampton also has more 22 A. As I said before, GE has been on the 23 knowledge for the tim e period he was with GE 23 forefront o f health and safety and they handle 24 than you do about GE industrial hygiene? 24 asbestos, as all substances that they handle, ; 25 A. For the time and for what he did with 25 responsibly at the time. There are thousands of Page 175 Page 177 : 1 Marjorie A. Drucker - Direct 1 Maijorie A. Drucker - Direct 2 the company, yes, he him self would personally 2 industrial hygiene, over 4,500 industrial hygiene 3 have more knowledge about that specifically with 3 samples that were taken on GE premises for 4 which he was involved. 4 asbestos going back to the 1950s through the 5 Q. What specifically and during what 5 1990s and I had the opportunity to study all 6 time period was he involved? 6 these samples. 7 A. Well, as I said, he was a chemist 7 Q. Okay. And that's why when I asked you 8 with the company from about 1950 through the 8 any other large categories o f documents you 9 current time and worked on various projects, 9 didn't recall those 4,500 industrial hygiene 10 some o f which related to asbestos. 10 studies, obviously, right? 11 Q. Did they relate to asbestos and 11 A. You stopped the question and I didn't 12 industrial hygiene? 12 answer it. 13 A. Well, if we're talking about 13 MR. SPEZIALI: I interjected. 14 industrial hygiene being general safety and 15 health he's not an industrial hygienist or a 14 Q. So I want to take broad categories. 15 We have the ones on the record. You mentioned 16 certified industrial hygienist, but he's certainly a 16 these surveys, some o f w hich go back to the 17 person very steeped in health and safety. I'm 18 sony. W hat was the question? 17 1950s, and some pertain to asbestos? 18 A. These 4,500 samples are all taken on 19 Q. Well, so then for that time period 19 the GE premises 1950s through 1990s. 20 1950s to the present as a chemist involved with 21 health and safety, although not an industrial 20 Q. What other documents in terms of 21 broad categories have you reviewed which you 22 hygienist, he knows more about the GE programs 22 believe you were getting from these people and 23 than you? 24 A. He would know more about what he did. 25 I haven't come across someone who knows the 23 generally other documents? 24 A. Generally, as I said, there were 25 cross checks in many ways. I reviewed general PRIORITY-ONE COURT REPORTING, INC. (718) 983-1234 45 (Pages 174 to 177 Page 178 1 Marjorie A. Drucker - Direct 1 Marjorie A. Drucker - Direct 2 medical and scientific information over time 2 GE. Page 180 3 that I reviewed for context and I reviewed 3 A lot o f the other information was 4 answers to interrogatories prepared over time. I 4 just general background scientific information 5 met, as I told you, I met and spoke with many 5 provided for context. I also attributed some of 6 people who had been with the company. 6 the articles to that, I'd say, body of 7 Q. I'm not talking about the meetings 7 literature o f medical and scientific 8 which you were saying you looked at documents 8 information. 9 that served as checks? 9 MR. KRISTAL: Why don't we mark this 10 A. I'm getting there. I'm not done. 10 as Exhibit 3. It's called "Asbestos Library 11 Q. I know. But I'm not interested in 11 Catalog." 12 meetings because we already talked about. 12 (Whereupon, Asbestos Library Catalog 13 A. I don't want to leave off anything. 1 13 is marked Plaintiffs Drucker Exhibit 3 For 14 had the opportunity to review books and other 14 Identification.) 15 documents prepared by the company, and that 15 Q. Is that the list you referred to 16 would have related to state-of-the-art 16 earlier today and ju st now? 17 information relating to asbestos at various 17 (Whereupon, the witness peruses the 18 periods o f time. 18 document.) 19 Q. Okay. Anything else? 19 A. I think this is. 20 A. I mentioned the visits. I went to the 20 Q. It is or it isn't? 21 Harvard and Radcliffe libraries, visited company 21 A. This, it is my understanding, is a 22 locations, I searched the Bridgeport offices of 22 listing o f Dr. Betts' information. 23 the form er industrial hygienist, but, in 23 Q. Let me back up. This morning you said 24 general, I think w e covered it. 24 you needed to look at a list to inform you as to 25 Q. When you did the search at the office 25 which other articles were involving Navy Page 179 1 M arjorie A. Drucker - Direct 2 of the industrial hygienist, were there 3 documents that you found that were not in the 4 categories you mentioned that helped you form 5 your opinions in this case? 6 A. Those documents would fall within the 7 broad categories 1mentioned. 8 Q. Are there any other broad categories 9 other than w hat you just mentioned in your last 10 answer, books and other documents written by GE? 11 A. The industrial hygiene samples, the 12 visits I m et w ith various industrial hygienists, 13 that's the broad categories. 14 Q. Okay. M edical and scientific 15 information over tim e, are you talking about GE 16 internal m edical and scientific information over 17 time or things that are on this list that 18 hopefully we'll get to today, if not, whenever 19 we meet again? 20 A. First o f all, GE was not an asbestos 21 company. They used veiy little asbestos on a very 22 few product lines. A very small amount of those 23 product lines ever contained asbestos. We found 24 actually only two articles in the medical and 25 scientific literature relating to asbestos at Page 181 ' 1 Marjorie A. Drucker - Direct 2 knowledge in 1922 as an example. Is Exhibit 3 3 the list you were talking about? 4 A. That might have duplicates. It's not 5 specifically the list that I had in mind. 6 Q. Okay. Then I will mark this Exhibit 7 3, but, does your list that you have in mind 8 have a title? 9 A. I think it says something about 10 index. Other than that, I don't remember. 11 Q. Do you have a copy somewhere of that 12 list? 13 A. Not with me, but yes. 14 Q. Okay. I will request a copy o f that 15 list, because there's no sense in using a list 16 if it's not the list you're talking about. It 17 doesn't make sense to me, anyway. Does it make 18 sense to you to wait until we have the actual 19 list? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. Okay. The two articles that you found 22 that related specifically to GE and asbestos, 23 were these from medical and scientific articles, 24 or newspaper articles, or what kind of articles? 25 A. I didn't say that they related to GE PRIORITY-ONE COURT REPORTING, INC. (718) 983-1234 46 (Pages 178 to 181) Page 182 Page 184 1 Maijorie A. Drucker - Direct 1 Maijorie A. Drucker - Direct | 2 and asbestos. I said we found two articles on 2 put in an area from way back, and, other than S 3 asbestos at GE, meaning, it was GE in Bridgeport 3 him saying, you know, that his office had been 1 4 in the former offices o f the industrial 4 there, we just started going through files and 5 hygienist who was there, Leo Feliu, who I told you 5 looking for things. S 6 I spoke to a couple times recently. 6 Q. When you say they were files put in 7 Q. In other words, somewhere in your 7 an area from way back, what do you mean? I 8 search o f GE documents you located two articles 8 A. That there were some records that had I 9 that somebody had somewhere? 9 been kept on some industrial hygiene asbestos 10 A. Again, this wasn't an asbestos 10 surveys that had been conducted there, things f 11 company. I don't know what you would expect to 11 relating to asbestos within that there were 1 12 find all these years after, but, yes, we were 12 these articles. 13 able to locate two articles and these were two 13 Q. Okay. And the location where Mr. 14 articles w e found a t Bridgeport. 14 Feliu was where you found these documents? | 15 Q. And do you know die names of these 15 A. The location, the plant is in 16 articles? 16 Bridgeport, Connecticut. j 17 A. Yes. 17 Q. The Answers to Interrogatories over f 18 Q. Okay. What were they? 18 tim e, when was the earliest GE -- strike that. 19 A. One was by Dr. Selikoff and one, and 19 You're talking about GE's Answers to 20 it was entitled "Asbestos exposure Smoking and 20 Interrogatories? 21 Neoplasia," and, my best recollection it's from 21 A. Yes, GE's Answers to Interrogatories. 22 1968. 22 Q. And do you have a set o f those 23 Q. Right. 23 somewhere? 24 A. And another article was by Philip 24 A. Yes. " 25 Interline (phonetic) and I don't recall the 25 Q. Okay. { Page 183 Page 185 ' 1 M aijorie A. Drucker - Direct 1 Marjorie A. Drucker - Direct 2 title, but it was from 1967. 2 MR. KRISTAL: I request copies of 3 Q. Do you have a belief as to when GE 3 those. 4 first came into possession of those documents, 4 MR. SPEZIALI: Again, Jeny, that's 5 in other words, you don't know if it was the day 6 before you got there or 35 years ago? Pm being 5 not with respect to this case. I mean, that 6 is, again, you're confusing -- 7 a little facetious, but, do you have any idea 8 when GE first came into possession o f those 9 articles? 7 MR. KRISTAL: I d o n t think I'm 8 confusing anything. 9 Q. Do the GE Answers to Interrogatories 10 A. No. But what I can say is when I was 10 help inform your opinion in these cases in terms 11 searching through the files they certainly 12 looked old and it looked like it hadn't been 13 touched in a long time. I also spoke to Leo 14 Feliu before I got there and he steered me on 11 o f what GE knew about the hazards o f asbestos 12 and when? 13 MR. SPEZIALI: Again, she's not being 14 offered for that purpose in this case. 15 w hat could you have. 15 MR. KRISTAL: Okay. 16 Q. Could you spell his last name? 16 A. I dont know what kind o f thing you 17 A. F-E-L-I-U. 17 m ay ask me, so I don't know how to answer that 18 Q. And it was in Mr. Feliu's office you 18 in the absence o f specific questions. I don't 19 found these two articles? 19 know what I can say, whether the interrogatories 20 A. In the area o f Mr. Feliu's office, 21 yes. He was the industrial hygienist, or one o f 22 them at Bridgeport. 20 would help or not. 21 Q. What information did you get from the 22 interrogatories that you felt was helpful? 23 Q. And were these articles in some file 23 MR. SPEZIALI: Objection. Helpful as 24 or folder or somewhere where he directed you to? 24 to what? 25 A. As I recall, all the files were just 25 Q. Helpful as to any opinions you have. PRIORITY-ONE COURT REPORTING, INC. (718) 983-1234 47 (Pages 182 to 185) 1 M arjorie A. Drucker - Direct Page 186 1 Marjorie A. Drucker - Direct Page 188 : 2 MR. SPEZIALI: In this case? 2 wasn't there. I have a degree, yes, o f certainty 3 MR. KRISTAL: Yes. 3 that the health and safety professionals at GE 4 M R. SPEZIALI: She's not offering 4 going back to the early thirties would have been 5 opinions on that. 5 aware that high levels o f exposure to asbestos 6 Q. W hat is the earliest year that you 6 dust can cause the fibrotic condition 7 believe GE knew about the hazards of asbestos? 7 asbestosis. 8 A. The health and safety professionals 8 Q. Is there a distinction in your mind 9 at GE would have been aware o f the relevant 9 between were aware and would have been aware? 10 medical and scientific information relating to 10 A. Since I wasn't there, I can't really 11 the constituents o f their products going back 11 say they were definitely aware because I wasn't 12 to, going back over time, and they would have 12 there. I think that what I've been able to 13 been aware o f relevant NACs, PELs, TLVs from 13 review, what I've been able to get a feel for 14 1930 to, from the early thirties to the 14 over time from reviewing documents that I have a 15 mid-thirties I'd say that the health and safety 15 high degree o f certainty that they would have 16 professionals at GE would have been aware that 16 been aware. 17 high levels o f exposure to asbestos dust can 17 Q. Is your opinion about the Navy and 18 cause asbestosis. 18 its knowledge o f asbestos that the Navy would 19 And, then in the person o f Dr. Irving 19 have been aware or was aware o f the hazards o f 2 0 Sacs (phonetic) in G E Schenectady in 1951, as 2 0 asbestos as o f 1922? 21 well as other authors at GE who published to GE 21 A. Well, according to one of the 2 2 and non-GE alike the state-of-the-art on 22 documents that is on one o f these lists, it's my 23 asbestos as it was known at the time. In fact, 23 understanding that the Navy was aware in 1922 24 as it w as known at the time all the way up 24 that high levels o f dust could cause a fibrotic 25 through OSHA. 25 condition. Page 187 1 Marjorie A. Drucker - Direct 2 Q. So in your opinion to a reasonable 3 degree o f medical certainty General Electric as 4 a company in the early thirties to mid-thirties 5 was aware that high levels of asbestos exposure 6 caused asbestosis? 7 A. You said to a reasonable degree of 8 medical certainty. I'm not a doctor and not a 9 toxicologist. 10 Q. I apologize. 11 A. I'm a certified industrial hygienist. 12 Q. Let me rephrase the question. To a 13 reasonable degree o f certainty, is it your 14 opinion that General Electric as a company was 15 aware in the 1930s to mid-1930s that high levels 16 o f exposure to asbestos causes asbestosis? 17 A. Yes, from the early to mid-thirties 18 the health and safety professionals at GE would 19 have been aware that high levels o f exposure to 2 0 asbestos dust causes asbestosis. 21 Q. Is there a difference between would 2 2 have been aware and were aware? I mean, if there 23 isn't, I don't know why you keep using different 24 language than I'm using. I'm using were aware. 25 A. I didn't mean to be confusing. I Page 189 1 Marjorie A. Drucker - Direct 2 Q. So - 3 A. The term asbestos wasn't until later 4 that it could cause a fibrotic condition. It was 5 known that there were dusty lung, and the Navy 6 certainly knew that. 7 Q. And was Alice Hamilton a consultant 8 to GE in the 1930s and forties? 9 A. Yes, Alice Hamilton was a consultant 10 to GE in the 1920s and 1930s on safety, 11 industrial hygiene and medicine. 12 Q. Have you seen in the 1920s and 13 thirties conveyed to GE the fact that asbestos 14 to cause asbestosis? 15 A. I'm familiar with one survey that she 16 performed at one location in which she, one o f 17 the doctors there had found a case o f 18 asbestosis, conferred with her and they took 19 appropriate precautions. 20 Q. And the doctor you're talking about 21 was a GE doctor? 22 A. I don't know if he was a GE doctor. 23 From the document, it appears he was a GE 24 doctor. 25 Q. And that was a GE plant that she PRIORITY-ONE COURT REPORTING, INC. (718) 983-1234 48 (Pages 186 to 189) Page 190 Page 192 f 1 Marjorie A. Drucker - Direct 1 Marjorie A. Drucker -D irect j 2 surveyed? 2 went to Mr. Swote. s 3 A. From what I've been able to determine 3 Q. If it didn't go to Mr. Swote, it went 4 in her survey reports, yes, that was a GE plant. 4 to somebody else involved in health and safety 5 Q. And she was called in at the request 5 at GE; is that fair to say? GE got the report 5 6 o f this GE doctor who had found this case o f 6 from Dr. Hamilton. There's no question about 7 asbestosis? 7 that, is there? 8 A. That's not the way it reads. 8 A. From what I could determine GE got 9 Q. Okay. Tell me your understanding o f 9 the report from Dr. Hamilton, at the time, acted 10 how it unfolded? 10 upon it, removed the man, put the other person J 11 A. M y understanding is that Alice 11 in an air line respirator and no more problems. 12 Ham ilton was amazing. Alice Hamilton was hired 12 Q. So GE knew as o f 1934 that asbestos i 13 by the president o f General Electric, his name 13 could cause asbestosis. N ot would have known, 14 w as Gerard Swote (phonetic), to go through GE 14 they knew? \ 15 plants and do environmental health industrial 15 A. It was no secret at the time. 16 hygiene surveys at will. She was given a blank 16 Q. I'm ju st asking you the earliest date 17 slate to go wherever she wanted. She wrote 17 that GE knew asbestos could cause asbestosis. So 18 reports directly to the president o f GE and he, 18 is it your opinion to a reasonable degree o f 19 in turn, made sure everything she recommended 19 certainty that GE knew asbestos could cause 1 20 was done. 20 asbestosis in 1934? 21 I in over 32 years as an industrial 21 A. Again, asbestos in high levels could 22 hygienist never heard o f such an arrangement. It 22 cause asbestosis, yes, I would say it was known 23 was phenomenal at the time. It is still 23 in 1934. It was no secret it was known then. 24 something that is highly commendable, to say the 24 Q. Okay. And GE w as informed in part by 25 least. Alice Hamilton was a consultant to GE. 25 Alice Hamilton as to how to reduce the incidence i Page 191 Page 193 1 Marjorie A. Drucker - Direct 1 Marjorie A. Drucker - Direct i 2 W hat was the question? 2 o f asbestosis, how to deal with the problem, 3 Q. As part of her consultancy work and 3 right? 4 the reports, one o f the reports involved 4 A. In part. 5 asbestosis; is that fair to say? 5 Q. Okay. And in part where else did they 6 A. Yes, one of the reports she wrote in 6 get information as to how to deal with the 7 over ten years o f surveys throughout all GE 7 problem to avoid asbestos disease, you mean from 8 facilities found that there had been a case o f 8 other internal industrial hygienists o f their 9 asbestosis which was taken care of, and, as I 9 own, where did they get that information other 10 mentioned before, there was no other case that 10 than from Dr. Hamilton as to how to avoid the 11 had come to the company's attention until 1971 11 risk o f asbestos? 12 over 40 years later. 12 A. They used hundreds o f materials. 13 Q. Okay. That was going to be my 13 Q. I know that. I'm ju st talking about 14 question. In what year was this Alice Hamilton 14 asbestos? 15 survey that discussed the asbestosis case done? 15 A. I want to bring this into context for 16 A. In this one particular instance this 16 you. If you look at all the reports she did and 17 was a report which I think is from 1934. 17 all the surveys she made, it seemed apparent 18 Q. Okay. 18 that GE facilities were aware in the twenties 19 A. There was a little question about the 19 and thirties that certain types o f precautions 20 date on the paper. It appears to be 1934. 20 should be taken with various types, including 21 Q. And that report was sent to Mr. 21 asbestos. GE being on the forefront o f health 22 Swote, the president of GE at the time? 22 and safety had measures to control dust and dust 23 A. Well, I don't have the document 24 specifically, but, all the other reports appear 23 asbestos exposure back to the twenties. 24 It's in her reports where she goes 25 to have gone to Mr. Swote, so I would assume it 25 from factory to factory and says there's PRIORITY-ONE COURT REPORTING, INC. (718) 983-1234 49 (Pages 190 to 193,' Page 194 Page 196 1 M aijorie A. Drucker - Direct 1 M arjorie A. Drucker - Direct 2 ventilation there, people in respirators here, 2 context. I apologize if you think I'm being 3 people getting x-rays there. So it was known 3 nit-picky. 4 throughout the country that there were a lot of 4 A. GE health and safety professionals 5 safety and health measures to take for a variety 5 going back over the years were aware, and, this 6 of substances. 6 is a lot from what I know from reading in the 7 Q. And it was known by 1934 by GE how to 7 Alice Hamilton surveys, for over ten years were 8 handle asbestos in a manner that would reduce 8 aware that certain types of measures would be 9 the risk o f asbestos disease? 9 taken with various types of dust to control 10 A. You reduce the dusty exposure. I 10 exposures and prevent disease not only asbestos, 11 don't think it w as a secret. Again, this was 11 but other potentially harmful material. Asbestos 12 part o f their overall ongoing health and safety 2 was just one thing they use. And those measures 13 program at the time. Frankly, at the time the 13 would have included -- 14 big occupational disease was silicosis. 14 Q. Before you go on, is it would have 15 Q. W hether it was a secret or not, it's 15 included or included? 16 your opinion to a reasonable degree o f certainty 16 A. Included. 17 that G E as o f 1934 knew how to reduce the risk 17 Q. Okay. 18 o f asbestos disease? 18 A. And based, again, based on what I've 19 A. Yes, I think in 1934 they knew, as 19 seen in Dr. Hamilton's surveys included exhaust 20 well as other sophisticated companies and other 20 ventilation, wetting methods, respirators, 21 sophisticated entities at the time. It wasn't a 21 medical surveillance, meaning x-rays. That's 22 secret. 22 what I recall. 23 Q. Could you tell me what measures were 23 Q. Okay. Was knowledge o f the hazards o f 24 known by GE to reduce the risk o f asbestos 24 asbestos by the people who were handling the 25 disease in 1934? 25 asbestos an important part of reducing the Page 195 1 M aijorie A. Drucker - Direct 2 MR. SPEZLALI: Objection. Asked and 3 answered. 4 Q. You started listing some of them, but 5 I w ant to m ake sure I get a comprehensive list? 6 MR. SPEZIALI: In context, we're 7 talking about at its facilities? Is that 8 what I understand the question to be? 9 MR. KRISTAL: The question is what it 10 is. 11 MR. SPEZIALI: All right. 12 A. GE being responsible handling 13 asbestos responsibly for various periods o f 14 tim e, as they did all other substances. 15 Q. I'm talking 1934. I'm talking 16 asbestos. I'm talking about GE's knowledge of 17 w hat measures should be taken to reduce the risk 18 o f asbestos disease? 19 A. GE health and safety professionals 20 would have been aware. 21 Q. I'm not asking would have been aware 22 now. I'm asking what you believe GE actually 23 knew? 24 A. I don't mean to -- 25 Q. It makes a difference in the legal Page 197 1 Marjorie A. Drucker - Direct 2 incidence o f asbestos disease in 1934? 3 A. The health and safety professionals 4 at GE over the years devised methods so that 5 people could work safely with all substances, ; 6 including asbestos. So the health and safety 7 professionals were certainly aware and made the 8 recommendations so that people were projected. 9 Q. My question has to do with GE 10 knowledge o f reducing the risk o f asbestosis in 11 1934. Did GE know in 1934 that to reduce the 12 risk o f asbestos disease exhaust ventilation was 13 one method to do that in your opinion to a 14 reasonable degree o f certainty? 15 A. The question is to reduce asbestos 16 disease? 17 Q. Right. 18 A. Could you say the whole thing again? 19 Q. Sure. Is it your opinion to a 20 reasonable degree o f medical certainty that in 21 1934 GE knew that exhaust ventilation was one 22 method to reduce the risk o f asbestos disease? 23 A. I'd say by 1934 GE health and safety 24 professionals would have been aware that exhaust 25 ventilation was one type of measure that could PRIORITY-ONE COURT REPORTING, INC. (718) 983-1234 50 (Pages 194 to 197) Page 198 Page 200 i; 1 Marjorie A. Drucker - Direct 1 Marjorie A. Drucker - Direct | 2 be utilized to reduce exposure to any number of 2 MR. SPEZIALI: In its facilities? i 3 substances. Asbestos was used in very small 3 MR. KRISTAL: Anywhere. 4 quantities for they were dealing with a gamut of 4 MR. SPEZIALI: There's a big 5 industrial exposures. 5 difference. 6 Q. My question is focused on asbestos, 6 MR. KRISTAL: You can object to the l 7 so I would like your answers to be focused on 7 form o f the question. 8 asbestos. Is it your opinion that as o f 1934 GE 8 MR. SPEZIALI: I do object. I think f 9 knew that exhaust ventilation was one authority, 9 it's an unfair question. 10 method or measure o f reducing the risk o f 10 A. Can I have the question, please? 11 asbestos disease? 11 Q. Sure. What asbestos-containing 12 A. M y answer was that in 1934 GE health 12 materials was GE using in 1934? ; 13 and safety professionals were aware that exhaust 13 A. Well, I don't know, other than the f 14 ventilation w as one type o f measure that could 14 few products that they made, I don't know w hat ; 15 help prevent disease such as asbestosis. 15 other kinds o f materials they were using, if it 16 Q. Fine. And by 1934 is it your opinion 16 wasn't reported. 17 to a reasonable degree o f medical certainty that 17 Q. Okay. What products did GE make that '} 18 GE health and safety professionals knew that 18 contained asbestos in 1934? ! 19 wetting asbestos materials was one way of 19 A. In 1934? 20 reducing the risk o f asbestos disease? 20 Q. Make it the 1930s if that's easier. | 21 A. Yes, according to Alice Hamilton 21 A. GE made two types of products, small 22 survey reports in 1934 when she reported - 22 torques o f which contained some amount o f 23 strike that. 23 asbestos for certain periods o f time. From the \ 24 Can I have your question again? 24 1930s to 1980, GE made wire and cable products, 1 25 Q. Sure. I'd like to know if in your 25 a small portion of which contained asbestos and Page 199 Page 201 \ 1 Marjorie A. Drucker -D irect 1 Maqorie A. Drucker - Direct 1 2 opinion to a reasonable degree o f certainty by 2 encapsulated asbestos. It's estimated that the 3 1934 GE health and safety specialists knew that 3 asbestos products, that the proportion was like 5 4 wetting asbestos-containing materials was one 4 five to ten percent, which decreased over time 5 method whereby they could reduce the risk of 5 into the seventies when in 1979 the NEC approved j 6 asbestos disease? 6 the highest temperature wire non-asbestos, and, > 7 A. Well, there was no secret either. 7 the business was actually sold in 1980. ; 8 Certainly, by 1934 health and safety 8 So wire and cable was one type o f 9 professionals knew that wetting could be one 9 product line, again, a small portion o f which 10 method to suppress dust, meaning, an 10 contained asbestos. The other being polymers and | 11 asbestos-containing dust, as well as other dusts 11 phenolics. Those are divided into two types. One ( 12 o f interest. 12 is called textolite, and, textolite was made 13 Q. And by reducing the dust they knew 13 from the 1930s to 1973. Only about five percent 14 that you could reduce the risk o f the disease? 14 o f textolite material ever contained asbestos. 15 A. They who? 15 That was a laminate board. The other type o f ; 16 Q. You said the health and safety 16 phenolic material was a material called genol 17 specialists generally knew that, by 1934 knew 17 (phonetic). You gave me, it was made in the 1920s 18 that using w et methods would reduce the amount 18 to 1972, and, again, not all genol ever 19 o f dust that would be generated when asbestos 19 contained asbestos. That was phased out as 20 materials were handled, right? 20 asbestos-containing in 1972. 21 MR. SPEZIALI: Objection. What 21 Q. Anything else? 22 asbestos-containing products? What are you 22 A. Asbestos-containing textolite was 23 talking about? 23 phased out in 1973. 24 Q. W hat asbestos-containing products 24 Q. And the information about these 25 were being used by GE at that time? 25 products came in part from the Answers to PRIORITY-ONE COURT REPORTING, INC. (718) 983-1234 51 (Pages 198 to 201) 1 Marjorie A. Drucker - Direct Page 202 1 Marjorie A. Drucker - Direct Page 204 2 Interrogatories that you reviewed? 2 consultants for the company. 3 A. As I said, there were a lot of cross 3 Q. Other than the products you have 4 checks. 4 mentioned you are aware that GE used 5 Q. I'm just asking you if some o f the 5 asbestos-containing insulation to insulate 6 information ~ 6 turbines when they were tested in the twenties. 7 A. I'm answering your question. 7 thirties and forties, are you aware of that? 8 Q. Okay. 8 A. A turbine is not an asbestos product. 9 A. In part. B ut a lot o f the material 9 A turbine is a metal machine that GE produced. 10 also cam e from the states. The oldest material 10 Q. I'm asking you if in the testing o f 11 came from the states. There were search made, 11 those products you're aware that GE used 12 frequent information requests made o f state 12 asbestos-containing insulation to test those 13 reports going back over time. So some o f these 13 products in the factory? 14 descriptions o f products and constituents were 14 A. Maybe, maybe not. 15 in reports from the various states. 15 Q. You don't know one way or the other? 16 Q. Okay. So in part you got information 16 A. I haven't seen anything relating to 17 that you ju s t mentioned about these products 17 exactly w hat you're saying. 18 from General Electric Answers to Interrogatories 18 Q. Have you read M r. Hobson's deposition 19 in part and in part you got it from? 19 that I took a couple weeks ago? 20 A. From industrial hygiene survey 20 A. No. 21 testing reports from the states. 21 Q. Did you see the photographs from the 22 Q. W hat do you mean from the states? 2 2 GE museum that turbines insulated with thermal 23 That's w hat I'm not understanding. 23 insulation from the twenties, thirties and 24 A. There's some others too. 24 forties, have you seen any photographs from any 25 Q. List the whole thing first. 25 GE plants, copies o f ~ Page 203 1 M aijorie A. Drucker - Direct 2 Industrial hygiene surveys from the states was 3 the second one? 4 A. State governments pre-OSHA had state 5 inspections. Post-OSHA there were OSHA 6 inspections. And there were searches made of 7 state records going back to the 1950s and some 8 o f those reports provided information on the 9 products that I ju st told you about. 10 Q. Gotcha. 11 A. Constituents and things like that, 12 time periods, information. Some o f the material 13 was, I also learned about from speaking to 14 people, some o f the industrial hygiene medical 15 people who w ere with the company over periods o f 16 time. There m ay have been other information. 17 That's w hat I recall right now. 18 Q. The state inspections, are those 19 different than the 4,500 industrial hygiene 20 studies? 21 A. There were 4,500 samples taken 22 throughout GE facilities from the fifties to the 23 nineties, and some o f those measurements, 24 probably a small portion came from the states. 25 Other were done by a company, others by Page 205 1 Marjorie A. Drucker - Direct 2 A. I've seen photos from GE plants. I'd 3 have to see exactly what you're talking about. 4 Q. Have you ever seen any photos o f any 5 GE turbines with thermal insulation on them in 6 the plants o f GE? 7 A. N ot that I recall. 8 Q. Okay. I want you to assume that there 9 was asbestos-containing thermal insulation put 10 on GE turbines when they were tested in the 11 plant. Okay? Are you with me so far? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. Are you aware o f whether or not GE 14 took any measures to protect the people from the 15 risk o f asbestos diseases who were handling 16 those products thermal insulation with asbestos? 17 A. As with all materials, the health and 18 safety professionals at G E would have devised 19 measures that would be protective o f their 2 0 people because they're the employer and it's on 21 their premises. 22 Q. Okay. So GE's knowledge about the 23 hazards o f asbestos w ould relate to any exposure 24 to asbestos regardless o f the source? 25 MR. SPEZIALI: Objection. PRIORITY-ONE COURT REPORTING, INC. (718) 983-1234 52 (Pages 202 to 205) Page 206 Page 208 | 1 Marjorie A. Drucker - Direct 1 Maijorie A. Drucker - Direct | 2 Q. Whether it was a thermal insulation, 2 at least as o f 1943 w ould have been aware o f 3 or textile or anything else? 3 that, correct, that asbestos as in pipe covering 4 MR. SPEZLALI: Objection. You mean in 4 could pose the risk o f asbestosis? | 5 its facilities? 5 A. Well, it appears that the Navy shared i 6 MR. KRISTAL: Yes. 6 that kind o f information. I would think that GE i 7 Q. You're saying GE had this stellar 7 health and safety professionals would have been f 8 industrial hygiene program? 8 aware o f prevailing medical and scientific | 9 A. GE had a stellar program. 9 information at the time, including that 10 Q. And its knowledge about the hazards 10 forefront material from the United States Navy. 1 11 o f asbestos that go back to 1934 included 11 Q. Okay. Do you have an opinion as to J 12 asbestos that would be contained in any asbestos 12 whether GE knew more or less or about the same S 13 product, right? It wasn't broken out asbestos in 13 as the Navy historically as to the hazards o f | 14 1934 we know is dangerous in textiles as opposed 14 asbestos? | 15 to insulation? 15 A. My understanding from having worked 16 A. I don't understand the question. I 16 with the United States N avy and having reviewed | 17 think it's a couple parts. 17 documents that the N avy was the foremost source 18 Q. Let me re-ask it. By the mid-1930s, 18 o f information about asbestos and its possible | 19 do you have an opinion as to whether or not GE 19 hazards. The Navy had a highly invigorated | 20 was aware that asbestos-containing thermal 20 health and safety program rich in tradition 5 21 insulation presented a risk o f asbestos disease? 21 going back over time. | 22 Do you have an opinion on that subject? 22 Q. When you say the Navy was the | 23 A. By the middle to late, by the middle 23 foremost source o f information about the hazards 1 24 1960s to 1970 GE health and safety professionals 24 o f asbestos, what do you mean? | 25 would have been aware o f the studies that were 25 A. I would say die Navy was an expert in | Page 207 Page 209 f 1 Marjorie A. Drucker - Direct 1 Maijorie A. Drucker -D irect | 2 conducted on insulation material. 2 asbestos, in its uses, you know, properties. } 3 Q. I'm not asking you that. When is the 3 Q. Okay. And you're getting that from jj 4 earliest point in time that you believe GE or 4 the Brown article we saw, right, in part? f 5 any GE health and safety professionals were 5 A. Well, in part. A s I said, I worked f 6 aware that asbestos as in the same materials 6 with the Navy and I'm aware, I worked for the J 7 that we saw in the 1943 minimum requirements 7 Navy and I'm aware o f their tradition in health | 8 document posed a risk o f asbestos disease? 8 and safety. I was an industrial hygienist at a f 9 MR. SPEZIALI: Objection. She's not 9 shipyard. | 10 being offered in that area. 10 Q. The Navy had a whole lot more on its f 11 A. You're saying disease. That's very 11 plate than GE did? | 12 broad. 12 A. I don't know w hat you mean by that. 13 Q. Asbestosis? 13 Q. GE was making product, some o f which ; 14 A. Td say it wasn't a secret. As we 14 contained asbestos. The Navy was involved in \ 15 said, 1934, mid-thirties it was known in die 15 building ships, fighting, transporting troops, l 16 medical and scientific community that high 16 supplying troops. It had a lot o f things going 5 17 levels o f asbestos dust could cause asbestosis. 17 on other than asbestos, right? 1 18 Q. From whatever the source? 18 MR. SPEZIALI: Sort o f like GE, you 19 A. High levels o f asbestos dust, right, 19 mean? 20 from whatever the source. 20 MR. KRISTAL: Exactly. That's what I'm 21 Q. And as we saw from the 1943 minimum 21 saying. 22 requirements document they were talking about 22 A. When you're saying the Navy had a lot 23 asbestos as in pipe covering, right? 23 on its plate, I don't know what you mean. I 24 A. Yes, they said as in pipe covering. 24 don't know if you're being funny or not. | 25 Q. So GE health and safety specialists 25 Q. Pm not being funny at all. I usually PRIORITY-ONE COURT REPORTING, INC. (718) 983-1234 S3C Pagn206to29) Page 210 Page 212 s 1 Marjorie A. Drucker - Direct 1 Marjorie A. Drucker - Direct 2 telegraph my jokes. 2 Go ahead. 3 Did you say the Navy was the foremost 3 A. The people, who? The people? 4 source o f information about asbestos? 4 Q. You said GE had measures in place to 5 A. Yes, the Navy was a highly 5 reduce the risk o f asbestos disease? 6 sophisticated customer with a long-standing 6 A. I said the health and safety 7 tradition in health and safety and knowledge. 7 professionals devised to prevent asbestosis 8 Q. Would you say that GE was highly 8 among other diseases. 9 sophisticated with respect to its knowledge 9 Q. To prevent asbestos diseases among 10 about asbestos? 10 whom are you talking about, GE employees? 11 A. I'd say that GE health and safety 11 A. W ell, we're talking about GE 12 professionals w ere knowledgable about the 12 employees on GE premises. That's what they had 13 knowledge o f the constituents o f their products 13 control of. So the GE health and safety 14 and they took measures so that their people, 14 professionals who had control o f GE employees on 15 their employees on their premises could work 15 premises devised certain safety measures. 16 safely w ith that, including other materials. 16 Q. And was one o f those measures letting 17 Q. Okay. 17 the people who were being exposed to asbestos 18 A. That was ju st one of hundreds of 18 know that they were at risk o f asbestos disease . 19 thousands o f materials that they handled safely. 19 so that the people could take measures to make 20 MR. KRISTAL: Are you offering Ms. 20 sure they would reduce their exposure? 21 Drucker with respect to warnings issues? 21 MR. SPEZIALI: Objection. 22 MR. SPEZIALI: Am I offering her as to 22 Q. The GE employees? 23 warnings issues? No. 23 A. The GE health and safety employee 24 Q. Is it your opinion to a reasonable 24 professionals were the people who were 25 degree o f certainty that by 1934 GE health and 25 knowledgable, and they devised measures so Page 211 1 Marjorie A. Drucker - Direct 2 safety specialists were aware the use of 3 respirators could reduce the risk o f asbestos 4 disease? 5 MR. SPEZIALI: Didn't we do this one 6 already? 7 MR. KRISTAL: I don't think so. 8 A. I don't think it was a secret in the 9 medical and scientific literature that reducing 10 exposure to dust can prevent disease. Say, by 11 the mid-thirties the health and safety 12 professionals w ould have been aware. 13 Q. AtGE? 14 A. The health and safety professionals 15 at GE would have been aware that reducing 16 exposure such as respirators would prevent 17 disease. 18 Q. And specifically to asbestos? 19 A. To asbestosis, yes. 20 Q. Was it important for people using 21 asbestos at GE to be aware that the material 22 they were using was potentially hazardous in 23 terms o f them reducing their risk o f the 24 disease? 25 MR. SPEZIALI: Objection. Relevance. Page 213 ; 1 Maijorie A. Drucker - Direct 2 people can work safely. 3 Q. If in 1934 someone who was handling 4 asbestos was given a respirator do you think it 5 would have been important for that person to 6 have been told by the GE health and safety 7 specialist that there was a risk o f disease if 8 they didn't use the respirator? 9 MR. SPEZIALI: Same objection. 10 A. Could you say that again, please? 11 Q. Let me start again. As an industrial 12 hygienist you believe it's important for people 13 to know they're working with a potentially 14 hazardous substance so they can reduce their 15 risk? 16 A. That's certainly the approach OSHA 17 takes now. Going back over time, it's not clear. 18 Q. You don't think in the 1930s it was 19 known by the industrial hygiene community that 20 one way o f reducing risks to hazardous 21 substances was to let people know that they were 22 working with a hazardous substance? 23 A. Well, as a professional who does this 24 kind of work, the way it works is that the 25 health and safety professionals study an area, PRIORITY-ONE COURT REPORTING, INC. (718) 983-1234 54 (Pages 210 to 213) Page 214 Page 216 f 1 Marjorie A. Drucker - Direct 1 Marjorie A. Drucker - Direct 2 study an environment, make a professional 2 It's also important to tell people | 3 determination as to what needs to be done to 3 that things can happen and, you know, this is 4 protect people, various types o f procedures 4 for their betterment they should use these f 5 perhaps, and, certainly, as a part would explain 5 things in a certain way. But the main way 6 to people to utilize the appropriate measures 6 occupational health and safety works is through 7 such as respirators and ventilation, but it's 7 health and safety professionals devising 1 8 the health and safety professionals that go in 8 measures to protect people for employers to j 9 and have the experience and training and can set 9 protect their employees and to control what can 10 up these measures so that they're followed. 10 be controlled best by those who can do the t 11 rve worked for over 30 years doing this 11 controlling. | 12 kind o f work, and, what's most effective is for 12 MR. KRISTAL: Why don't we take a ! 13 a premises, for a location, for an area to have 13 break and come back to this? 14 controls in place. It doesn't work ju st telling 14 (Whereupon, there is a recess in the l 15 people about different kind o f things. W hat you 15 proceedings.) | 16 have to do is try and engineer problem s out and 16 (Whereupon, Various Documents are 17 control the source, and that has to be done by 17 marked Plaintiffs Drucker Exhibit 4 For ! 18 people who are trained in the field by 18 Identification.) 19 professional health and safety people who know 19 (Whereupon, Various Documents are | 20 how to device measures. 20 marked Plaintiffs Drucker Exhibit 5 For I 21 Q. I wasn't saying informing people o f 21 Identification.) 22 the hazard was the only measure. But you 22 Q. rve marked as Drucker Exhibit 4 a 23 certainly believe that is one o f the measures? 23 paper clipped group o f documents. On the first 24 A. Certainly from what we know today 24 page in handwriting it says "Radcliffe - please f 25 it's a part o f health and safety perhaps such as we 25 note stamp on back o f each page." Could you tell 1 Page 215 Page 217 1 1 M aijorie A. Drucker - Direct 1 Marjorie A. Drucker - Direct 1 2 know now. 2 us what Exhibit 4 is? \ 3 Q. When, in your opinion, was the 3 A. This note is something that I wrote. J 4 earliest that that was a part o f health and 4 W hat I did was, about three or four weeks ago, I 1 5 safety programs? 5 visited Harvard and Radcliffe libraries to look 1 6 A. I don't know if I can give you an 6 for papers that were relevant that were Alice | 7 exact date. 7 Hamilton. I looked at some o f the Drinker files. 8 Q. You don't believe it was a part of 8 So this collection comes from Radcliffe Library, 1 9 health and safety from an industrial hygienist's 9 and, these are some industrial hygiene, some 10 point to educate workers as to the potential 10 surveys and other correspondence information l 11 hazards they might be exposed to in the 1930s? 11 that I found in Radcliffe in the Alice Hamilton 12 A. I think it's part o f an overall 12 collection that's housed there. 5 13 program that, to me, being a professional and 13 Q. Okay. \ 14 knowing how this works -- can I finish without 14 A. Some that I didn't think that I had | 15 being cut off? 15 seen that we had collected before, so I had t 16 Q. Sure. Go ahead. I wish you would 16 copies made and then I sent them on to M r. 17 answer the question, though. 17 Kapshandy's firm, and that's how they ended up | 18 A. The way it really works, I've worked 18 here. i 19 for companies, I've worked for the Navy, I've 19 Q. Okay. What were you looking for at 20 worked in various situations, the way it really 20 the Radcliffe Library in terms o f documents you 21 works, the way to protect people is to put 21 would select out o f a larger group o f documents? j 22 measures in place as the employer, as the 22 A. What I was looking for principally at 23 premises owner, as the person who has control 23 Radcliffe were Dr. Alice Hamilton's work she did 24 over what's going on and to institute measures 24 throughout GE's facilities or anything related 25 so people are protected. 25 to her work at GE, and, what I had with me was a PRIORITY-ONE COURT REPORTING, INC. (718) 983-1234 55"(Pages24to217) 1 Marjorie A. Drucker - Direct 2 list o f some o f the articles that we collected Page 218 Page 220 "i 1 Marjorie A. Drucker - Direct 2 GE? She wasn't just doing this report for her 3 on Alice Hamilton and I was adding to it those 3 own edification, was she? 4 which I didn't think w e had. So I wanted to 4 A. As was her custom, she would forward 5 supplement the collection so that we would have 5 information, forward the reports to GE. 6 as many as we could. 6 Q. I read that report quickly. It 7 Q. When you say "articles," you mean 7 doesn't discuss asbestosis or asbestos at all, 8 documents as opposed to, somebody says an 8 does it? 9 article, I think o f a published article? 9 A. I didn't see a mention of asbestos or 10 A. When I say article here I'm referring 10 asbestosis. 11 to either her letters or industrial hygiene 11 Q. It's focused more on silica? 12 survey reports, or, there are some, I ju st saw 12 A. It took a lot o f her attention. When 13 one this week, an article in here, some 13 you look at her body o f information, she studied 14 correspondence back and forth within the 14 at GE and non-GE alike. Yes, this appears to be 15 company. I meant that in that sense o f ju st -- 15 non-silica. 16 Q. Items? 16 Q. Are the industrial hygiene principles 17 A. Items. Thank you. 17 that relate to silica dust and reducing silica 18 Q. A --there's a 1929, it looks like some 18 disease in the 1920s that are outlined in that 19 sort o f a report from a foundry; is that 19 report the same industrial hygiene principles 20 correct? 20 that would apply to any other pneumococcus 21 A. If it's ear tabbed, it says, "April 21 producing dust such as asbestos? 22 19th, 1929 and Elm ira Foundry." 22 A. I'm going to have to ask you to focus 23 Q. And what is your understanding as to 23 for me and tell me what you're looking at. 24 what that document is? 24 Q. Why did you copy that document? Let's 25 A. Can I look it over for a minute? 25 put it that way. Page 219 1 Marjorie A. Drucker - Direct 2 Q. O f course. 3 (Whereupon, the witness peruses the 4 document.) 5 A. Yes. Thank you. 6 Q. M y question was, what is your 7 understanding o f what that document is? 8 A. Dr. Alice Hamilton visited the Elmira 9 Foundry Company and wrote about it in this 10 report. 11 Q. And sent it to GE; is that your 12 understanding? L et me back up a second. How do 13 you know Alice Hamilton wrote that? 14 A. W ell, I found this in her, I found it 15 in the Alice Ham ilton collection at Radcliffe, 16 and, I was going through the papers, and, as I 17 was going through the papers I noticed that the 18 type face, she had a typewriter she prepared a 19 lot o f reports on. It was in the folder for 20 Alice Hamilton. The type face was the same. The 21 handwriting in the corrections is the same. So I 22 believe this is an Alice Hamilton survey report. 23 Q. And it's also your report that that 24 Alice Hamilton 1929 Elmira survey report was 25 forwarded at or around the date o f the report to Page 221 1 Marjorie A. Drucker - Direct 2 A. Why did I copy this? 3 Q. Yes. 4 A. As I said, it was part of the Alice 5 Hamilton documents in the GE collection, and, to 6 me, it was very important to show that not only 7 was she visiting GE facilities, but that she was 8 very, paying very much attention to the leading 9 occupational disease at the time that related to 10 silica, silicosis. So it put in context for me 11 the general idea that silica was a leading 12 disease at the time, industrial disease, I 13 should say. 14 Q. And the import o f that with respect 15 to opinions you have in this case is what, that 16 people shouldn't have been paying attention to 17 asbestos? 18 A. Well, I think that it puts into 19 context what was really, what was going on in 20 industry and in the health and safety at the 21 time. The leading occupational illness o f the 22 time was silicosis. Emphasis was put on silica. 23 And it's not that no heed should be paid to 24 asbestos, but it wasn't, it ju st was not as big 25 a deal as silicosis and possibly other PRIORITY-ONE COURT REPORTING, INC. (718) 983-1234 56 (Pages 218 to 221) Page 222 Page 224 ! 1 M aijorie A. Drucker - Direct 1 M aijorie A. Drucker -Direct 2 industrial diseases that were prevalent at the 2 Q. So as o f 1929, at least from this 3 time. 3 Alice Hamilton survey o f the GE fbundiy, GE 4 MR. SPEZIALI: Just for clarification. 4 health and safety specialists were aware that 5 I don't plan on having her render those 5 individuals who were not working with a dusty i 6 opinions in this case. The reason we 6 product could be exposed to the dust being i 7 brought that is we are going to have her 7 created by others working nearby; is that fair 8 talk about Alice Hamilton and those are 8 to say? 9 part o f the Alice Hamilton materials. 9 A. Could you say as o f this date? i 10 Q. Do you know who AJ Lanza (phonetic) 10 Q. 1929. 11 was? 11 A. It was no secret. I would think I 12 A. I'm familiar with a Dr. Lanza, yes. 12 that any sophisticated health and safety 1 13 Q. Okay. W ho was Dr. Lanza? 13 professional, medical people at the tim e it f 14 A. For more completeness I would refer 14 would make sense that you segregate areas. i 15 to my listing, but I'm familiar there was a Dr. 15 Certainly the Navy would have known something 16 Lanza who had done some studies on, including 16 like that at that point in time. Sophisticated 17 asbestos. I don't recall what else was studied. 17 places would have known it. 18 Q. Is that something you learned from 18 Q. Certainly GE knew it? t 19 the GE folks you interviewed? 19 A. W e know from this report the premier 20 A. I certainly got that from some o f the 20 expert working in the country working for GE 21 medical and scientific literature at the time, 21 mentioned that. = 22 and, it's something that over periods o f time, I 22 Q. And mentioned it to GE? 23 told you I reviewed documents for many years, 23 A. Yes, she did. 24 and it's something that I'm sure I have been 24 Q. Could you tell us what Exhibit 5 is 25 familiar with at different periods o f time. 25 ju st for the record. Page 223 Page 225 1 Maijorie A. Drucker - Direct 1 Maijorie A. Drucker - Direct 2 Q. Have you ever seen a textbook called 2 A. This is my handwriting. It says 3 "Asbestosis and Silicosis" by Lanza? 3 "Harvard - please note stamp on front." I went 4 A. Not that I recall. 4 to Harvard University Medical School Medical 5 Q. The second tab on Exhibit 4, there's 5 Library in Boston and I looked at papers that 6 a section I will read you and sentence and hand 6 they were, that they pulled for me on Alice 7 it back to you. It says, "A canvass screen has 7 Hamilton, on Philip Drinker, on some o f the 8 been placed to keep from two men the dust which 8 histoiy o f the Harvard School o f Public Health, 9 another man raises when he blows out his moles." 9 General Electric. There were a few things in 10 Do you see that? 10 there they searched for me, and these were some 11 (Whereupon, the witness peruses the 11 documents that I found that were not in our 12 document.) 12 collection that 1 wanted to supplement the 13 A. I sure do. 13 collection w ith to make it more complete. 14 Q. And that was a well-known industrial 14 Q. W hen you say "not in our collection," 15 hygiene principle o f the time, the time being at 15 who is the "our" that you're referring to? 16 least 1929, o f segregating dusty work so that 16 A. The listing feat I mentioned to you 17 people who were not involved with dusty work 17 before, fee index listing has a number o f 18 wouldn't be exposed to the dust being created by 18 documents which I've contributed, which some o f 19 others? 19 them had been contributed by fee Sidley law 20 A. I don't know how well-known it was. I 20 firm. We had both put documents into this 21 would think by very sophisticated entities such 21 listing, and I thought these were absent so I 22 as the Navy, sophisticated places would have 22 wanted to supplement our collection. 23 been aware that that would have been one measure 23 Q. Okay. 24 that could be helpful to segregate dust one area 24 (Whereupon, Videotape is marked 25 to another. 25 Plaintiffs Drucker Exhibit 6 For *" 'l - ~ -- - .... " '*" ... .................57 (Pages 222 to 225) PRIORITY-ONE COURT REPORTING, INC. (718) 983-1234 Page 226 1 Marjorie A. Drucker - Direct 2 Identification.) 3 Q. This is a videotape marked Exhibit 6 . 1 Marjorie A. Drucker - Direct 2 A. Yes, I did. There's a Men and Bolts 3 at War. It's a story o f GE in W orld War II. Page 228 4 It says, "Electric Nation PBS"? 5 A. Yes. 4 Q. Anything about industrial hygiene? 5 A. I think it puts into perspective 6 Q. W hat is that? 6 that, you know, GE as a company worked with many 7 A. I highly recommend this. This is a 7 type o f health and safety situations. They had 8 video th at was made o f a program, and it's about 8 many things they had to do. Men and Bolts at War 9 the lighting o f America and about the history of 9 deals with GE's contribution to the war effort 10 lighting in Am erica from the turn o f the last 10 and winning the war through the work they did 11 Century, 19th Centuiy and how lighting spread 11 around the clock for many years during --I'm 12 literally from nothing to lighting the whole 12 sorry. Your question was? 13 nation. So that's w hat "Electric Nation" means, 13 Q. The question was whether it had 14 and it's, it shows fantastic growth, and some o f 14 anything to do with industrial hygiene? 15 the origination o f electricity and major works 15 A. Well, I think in terms o f the 16 in its generation and its transformation were GE 16 spectrum o f w hat you can see GE got into the 17 people. 17 observation that the health and safety 18 Q. Does it in any way discuss industrial 18 professionals were very premier, and it ju st 19 hygiene? 19 speaks to me in general about the quality o f the 20 A. I haven't seen it in a little while 20 company. 21 and I don't recall nothing, but that's not to 21 Q. Okay. Are you saying that the book 2 2 say it doesn't. 22 Men and Bolts discusses GE, discusses hygiene at 23 Q. Does it discuss asbestos? 23 any level? 24 A. N ot that I remember. 24 MR. SPEZIALI: There is a Men and 25 Q. Does it discuss a Navy knowledge of 25 Bolts and a Men and Bolts at War. Page 227 1 Marjorie A. Drucker - Direct 2 asbestos, GE knowledge of asbestos? 3 A. N ot that I recall. 4 Q. Okay. W hat relevance does it have to 5 any opinions you may have in this case? 6 M R. SPEZIALI: I'll answer that. It's 7 relevant to who GE is. 8 MR. KRISTAL: Okay. 9 MR. SPEZIALI: You know, the thing 10 about other things that they have to do and 11 w o n y about, sort o f like the Navy. 12 (W hereupon, Handwritten Note is 13 marked P laintiffs Drucker Exhibit 7 For 14 Identification.) 15 Q. Drucker 7 is a little note "Men and 16 Bolts at W ar (phonetic), GE History, Betts' 17 Power Point Exhibits"? 18 M R. KAPSHANDY: No, deposition. 19 M R. KRISTAL: I'm sorry. 20 MR. KAPSHANDY: That's my handwriting. 21 MR. KRISTAL: That's deposition and 22 exhibit? 23 MR. KAPSHANDY: Right. 24 Q. You've reviewed the book Men and 25 Bolts? Page 229 : 1 Marjorie A. Drucker - Direct 2 A. Not directly. But as somebody who has 3 looked at the rich history and GE being on the 4 forefront o f health and safety, it measures to 5 me they were so on the forefront and all the 6 contributions they made to the war effort and to 7 this countiy winning this war. It's ju st part to 8 me o f a story. 9 Q. What does that have to do with 10 measuring with industrial hygiene? You can have 11 a company that can do what you ju st said and 12 have a great industrial high program or have a 13 bad industrial hygiene program. 14 A. I don't know about that. W hat I've 15 been able to ascertain, GE had a premier 16 program. They were on the forefront of health 17 and safety. This, to me, was just, it directed 18 me to the contributions that GE made in helping 19 win World W ar II and the types o f material and 20 equipment produced and how it helped allow this 21 country to prevail. 22 Q. What's that got to do with industrial 23 hygiene? 24 A. As a professional, when I look at 25 organizations and I do analyses, surveys, PRIORITY-ONE COURT REPORTING, INC. (718) 983-1234 58 (Pages 226 to 229) Page 230 Page 232 | 1 Marjorie A. Drucker - Direct 1 Marjorie A. Drucker - Direct | 2 studies o f different organizations, I think I've 2 view this company. | 3 seen over the course o f my career that companies 3 Q. If you had ju st read that book would $ 4 that are premier, generally have premier 4 you be rendering an opinion o f what kind of ; 5 aspects associated with them that, to me, what 5 industrial hygiene company they had? | 6 this m eant in health and safety was here's a 6 A. If I had only read this book? 7 company that is just outstanding and it just 7 Q. Yes. 8 meshed to me in terms of their health and safety 8 A. It's part o f a bunch o f pieces that 9 effort over the years how they've been in the 9 fit together, a bunch o f information that all 10 forefront, and it just, to me, it was ju st 10 points in the same direction. It's ju st part o f | 11 another piece o f the GE picture. 11 the picture o f the company that is GE. 12 Q. Other than being another piece o f the 12 Q. And is there any part o f that book | 13 GE picture generally as to what the General 13 that discusses any aspect o f industrial hygiene? f 14 Electric Company was about, it had nothing to do 14 A. N ot that I could cite right now. 15 w ith industrial hygiene, did it? It doesn't say 15 Q. What's the next book, "GE History"? 16 what GE knew or didn't know or any measures they 16 It's like a coffee table history book? 17 took to prevent any disease or anything about 17 A. If s actually a great book. It's 1976 18 that? 18 to 1986 GE history, and thafs the history of 19 A. W ell, as I said, as a professional, 19 the General Electric Company, and, from its 20 when I look at an organization, I look at many 20 inception from the companies from which it was I 21 times an organization in its totality, and this 21 founded in the 1890's and how it consolidated 22 company - can I finish? 22 and grew from there and the contributions ifs 23 Q. O f course you can finish. 23 made over the years in medicine, in various 24 A. Thank you. And this company made a 24 services, certainly in electrical products. 25 m ajor contribution in World War II and things 25 It's also, it's a rich history o f a Page 231 Page 233 i 1 M aijorieA.Drucker -Direct 1 Marjorie A. Drucker - Direct 2 that they made and the descriptions o f how the 2 very diversified company, made hundreds if not 3 factories were run around the clock and ju st 3 thousands o f types o f products over the years, 4 how the output was continuous and the types, the 4 and it provides a lot o f good background 5 varied amounts o f materials that they made, and, 5 information on the company. 6 obviously, in making these things they had to 6 Q. Nothing in it about industrial 7 work w ith thousands o f types of substances, many 7 hygiene, right? 8 o f which could have been hazardous, and they 8 A. Not that I recall. To me, again, it's 9 obviously have been on the forefront of health 9 part o f the overall picture of this company. 10 and safety, and this was part o f it. 10 Q. You're aware that GE made x-ray 11 Q. You're saying that every company that 11 equipment beginning in the 1930s to help detect 12 made a m ajor contribution to W orld W ar II and 12 pneumococcus, including asbestosis? 13 had production around the clock had stellar 13 A. I'm aware that GE made x-ray 14 industrial hygiene programs? 14 equipment. The next part o f your question, I'd 15 A. W hat I've been able to gather about 15 have to see some documentation on that. 16 GE from m any variety o f sources, this was one 16 Q. Have you ever seen some x-ray 17 more piece o f a picture o f a company that is, 17 equipment? 18 that's been on the forefront in health and 18 A. Yes. 19 safety and in other ways too certainly in their 19 Q. It was being promoted to help in the 20 contribution to the w ar effort in W orld W ar n . 20 medical surveillance programs you discussed in 21 Q. A nd I'm asking if it's your opinion 21 the thirties with respect to asbestos disease? 22 that all companies who made a major contribution 22 A. Could you ask that again? I want to 23 to the W orld War II war effort had stellar 23 make sure I understand your question. 24 industrial hygiene programs? 24 Q. Sure. The question is whether you 25 A. I don't know. I had an opportunity to 25 have seen any literature whereby the GE x-ray PRIORITY-ONE COURT REPORTING, INC. (718) 983-1234 59 (Pages 230 to 233) 1 Marjorie A. Drucker - Direct Page 234 1 Marjorie A. Drucker - Direct Page 236 1 2 equipment as o f the 1930s was being promoted for 2 deposition. 3 use in medical surveillance type activities such 3 Q. Why did you read his deposition? 4 as you mentioned in terms o f the knowledge GE 4 A. For background information. 5 had about asbestosis? 5 Q. On what subject? 6 A. As I sit here right now I can't think 6 A. General material. Dr. Betts had a 7 o f an article on that, but I do know that they 7 long and illustrious career with the United 8 made, electric, excuse me, x-ray equipment that 8 States Navy, and I thought that would be 9 would have been used for a variety of medical 9 productive to read what he had to say. 10 and health prevention purposes. 10 Q. Why? 11 Q. Including the detection of 11 A. Because he had been a physician and 12 pneumococcus? 12 an industrial hygienist with the United States 13 A. Quite possibly. 13 Navy. I thought that his, the information he 14 Q. What's the next item, Betts' 14 could impart would be contributory, would be 15 deposition and exhibits? 15 informational. 16 A. Yes. 16 Q. Contributory to what? 17 Q. What does that mean? 17 MR. SPEZIALI: Objection. She read it 18 A. That refers to this list, Dr. Betts' 18 because we asked her to because she's being 19 exhibits to his deposition. 19 offered as a witness. 20 Q. In your hand, Drucker Exhibit 3? 20 MR. KRISTAL: All you need to do is 21 A. Yes. 21 say objection. 22 Q. W hat is Exhibit 3? 22 MR. SPEZIALI: No, not when you're 23 A. It's called "Asbestos Libraiy 23 fighting with her. 24 Catalog." It's my understanding it's Dr. Betts' 24 MR. KRISTAL: We will get the judge on 25 compendium or list. 25 the phone. Let's call Judge Freedman. Page 235 Page 237 ; 1 Marjorie A. Drucker - Direct 1 Marjorie A. Drucker - Direct 2 Q. And that's what that last note -- 2 MR. SPEZIALI: Ask your next question. 3 A. Exhibits to his deposition. So that's 3 MR. KRISTAL: If you promise you're 4 w hat I would say, that is his deposition 4 not going to do that. 5 exhibits. 5 MR. SPEZIALI: Let me hear the 6 MR. KAPSHANDY: Deposition and 6 question. 7 exhibits. 7 Q. When you said it was contributory, 8 THE WITNESS: I'm sorry. 8 contributory to what? 9 Q. You read his deposition? 9 A. Contributory to general information 10 A. We went over that before, yes, I did. 10 for me. I was asked to read it. I looked at it. 11 I had an opportunity to read his deposition. 11 It was o f interest. Dr. Betts had been a 12 Q. Do you disagree with anything he 12 physician and industrial hygienist with the 13 expressed in his deposition? 13 United States Navy. 14 MR. SPEZIALI: Objection. She's not 14 Q. So it was contributory on your 15 here as a witness against another witness, 15 knowledge on the subject? 16 nor is she here relevant to all the areas 16 A. To certain information that he 17 Dr. Betts testified to. 17 related. 18 Q. Do you disagree with anything he 18 Q. Okay. Such as what? 19 testified to in his deposition? 19 A. I'd have to look at the transcript. 20 A. It's kind o f broad. If you can focus 20 Q. Okay. Without looking at the 21 m e Td be happy to answer. 21 transcript you cannot say w hat it was in 22 Q. With regard to his testimony of stark 22 particular that his deposition helped to 23 knowledge with regard to asbestos disease, would 24 you disagree? 23 c o n tr ib u te in te r m s o f y o u r k n o w le d g e b a s e ? 24 A. I have to look at the transcript. 25 A. I would have to look at the 25 Q. Okay. PRJORITY-ONE COURT REPORTING, INC. (718) 983-1234 60 (Pages 234 to 237) Page 238 Page 240 } 1 Marjorie A. Drucker - Direct 1 Marjorie A. Drucker -Direct 1 2 MR. KRISTAL: I'm just reading from 2 standards with respect to exposure to asbestos, 3 Exhibit 1. "Ms. Drucker may testify to the 3 including TLVs and OSHA-promulgated permissible | 4 state-of-the-art with respect to asbestos 4 exposure limits? 5 in the scientific and industrial hygiene 5 A. Okay. If we take TLVs at OSHA, 1 6 communities, and in particular die 6 permissible exposure limits going back to 1946, | 7 evolution o f knowledge regarding the 7 the ACGIH, the American Conference o f Industrial 1 8 effects o f asbestos exposure and its 8 Hygienists, proposed a promulgated a level that | 9 control during the time period relevant to 9 they first called the maximum allowable 10 this case, i.e., prior to 1973." 11 As I understand it, she's not 10 concentration and changed the name to threshold 5 11 limit value, and that was 500 particles per f 12 testifying that broadly, or is she? I 12 cubic foot. In 1968, which the ACGIH then I 13 thought earlier we were not begging off, 13 proposed a level o f 12 fibers per cc, and then 14 but that Ms. Drucker's knowledge as she 14 OSHA came into effect in 1971. They also adopted ; 15 sits here related to state-of-the-art with 16 respect to asbestos and the Navy and GE. 15 that 12 fiber per cc level in 1972, and that was 16 a permissible exposure. In 1972, OSHA lowered f 17 MR. SPEZIALI: I think, I mean, yes. I 17 the permissible exposure limit to five fibers ;? 18 mean, obviously, when you get into those 18 per cc, and, in 1976, OSHA lowered that again to 19 topics they go a little beyond that and 20 talk about industry in general, but, I 19 two fibers per cc. In 1986, OSHA again lowered 20 that to 0.2 fibers per cc, and, then, in 1994 f 21 mean, that's how I'm going to address it 21 OSHA again lowered it to 0.1 fibers per cc for * 22 when I present it, that testimony, if that 22 any 30 minute period, and that's in effect 23 makes sense. 23 currently now. There were some levels going back 24 Q. Do you have an opinion as to the 24 over time, I just mentioned the current one, 25 state-of-the-art with respect to asbestos in the 25 meaning the one we have now since 1994. Page 239 Page 241 ! 1 Marjorie A. Drucker - Direct 1 Marjorie A. Drucker - Direct 2 scientific and industrial hygiene communities, 2 Q. Do you know the history o f the | 3 and in particular as to the evolution o f 4 knowledge regarding the effects o f asbestos 3 promulgation o f the MAC for asbestos by the ! 4 ACGIH? | 5 exposure and its control during the period 5 A. Well, I've seen documents in the f 6 relevant to this case other than with respect to 7 the Navy and GE? 6 documentation for threshold limit values over 7 the years. f 8 MR. SPEZIALI: Again, I'm not going to 8 Q. I'm talking about the first one in 9 ask her about that, Jerry. 9 1947? f 10 Q. Nor do you have an opinion as you sit 10 A. Well, as I sit here, I don't recall 11 here today on that subject? 11 in its entirety. I do recall that it was based | 12 A. I've been asked to concentrate on the 12 on state-of-the-art at the tim e, which would J 13 N avy in this particular instance. 13 have included Dreesen. 14 Q. So you don't have an opinion on that 14 Q. Anything else? | 15 as you sit here today? 16 A. As I sit here today, I have not 17 formulated one. 15 A. Which they adopted was the five 16 million particles per cubic foot on the Dreesen \ 17 study. 18 Q. Okay. "She may also testify regarding 18 Q. Anything else? 1 19 the evolution o f various standards for exposure 19 A. N ot that I remember right now. I'd 20 to asbestos, including TLVs and OSHA-promulgated 20 have to look at the document. 21 permissible exposure limits." 22 Do you have an opinion on that? 23 A. Well, if you ask me a question I 24 could answer it for you. 21 Q. And that was total dust? | 22 A. Well, you know, I've seen it both | 23 ways. I think at different periods o f time it | 24 was thought to be either asbestos because in the I 25 Q. Could you tell me the evolution o f 25 proceedings, I think in 1946 they broke it out | PRIORITY-ONE COURT REPORTING, INC. (718) 983-1234 61 (Pages 238 to 241) Page 242 Page 244 1 Marjorie A. Drucker - Direct 1 Marjorie A. Drucker - Direct 2 where they had five million particles per cubic 2 that contained asbestos but did not know how 3 foot asbestos compared to 50 million particles 3 much dust there was, i.e., above or below five 4 per cubic foot total dust. I'd say over periods 4 million particles per cubic foot? You either 5 o f time the thought was, you know, different 5 have an opinion or don't have an opinion on that 6 whether it was total dust, whether it was 6 subject? 7 asbestos-containing dust. It just varied over 7 A. 1 don't know how else to answer that 8 time. 8 question. 9 Q. W ould you agree that by the 1950s, 9 Q. Your answer had nothing to do with my 10 the early 1950s GE knew if you didn't know the 10 question. 11 concentration o f asbestos dust you should wear a 11 A. It's the employer who's responsible 12 respirator when you were around asbestos? 12 for determining potentially hazardous exposures. 13 MR. SPEZIALI: Objection. 13 Q. Who says? 14 A. I'm not sure I understand your 14 A. Who says? 15 question. 15 Q. Who said in the 1940s? 16 Q. Sure. I'm asking you if you have an 16 A. OSHA says what we know now. And 17 opinion as to whether GE knew by the early 1950s 17 before OSHA came into being there was state 18 that if you didn't know what the air measure was 18 health departments that said the employer has 19 you should wear a respirator when you were 19 the responsibility, the employer is the person 20 around asbestos dust? 20 who's in control o f the premises, who's in 21 A. Well, GE health and safety 21 control o f the employee and who can exercise 22 professionals looked into a myriad of 22 control over any kind o f potential exposures to 23 potentially hazardous materials. Any material 23 protect the person in place. 24 can be hazardous. It depends how you work with 24 Q. In your opinion, the manufacturer o f 25 it safely. 25 an asbestos-containing product has no Page 243 1 Marjorie A. Drucker - Direct 2 Now, in the case o f asbestos, the 3 health and safety professionals would have 4 looked into a devised method so that people 5 could work with it safely, just as they did with 6 all o f the other hundreds o f thousands of 7 materials. 8 Q. My question is, do you have an 9 opinion as to whether or not GE was aware by the 10 early 1950s that when you were around dust that 11 contained asbestos and didn't know the 12 measurement that you should w ear a respirator? 13 MR. SPEZIALI: Same objection. 14 A. W ell, I answered that. The health and 15 safety professionals at GE would have devised 16 programs to insure the safety o f their employees 17 on their premises, that which they controlled, 18 and, the health and safety people would have 19 taken appropriate measures, whether it was 20 tests, to determine whatever it was involved, 21 they would take protective measures for their 22 people on their premises, that which they had 23 control over. 24 Q. Did GE in the 1950s know that you 25 should wear a respirator if you were around dust Page 245 1 Marjorie A. Drucker - Direct 2 responsibility to warn o f the hazard of 3 asbestos? 4 MR. SPEZIALI: Objection. 5 A. The manufacturer o f a product? 6 Q. Yes. 7 A. The manufacturer -- 8 Q. Let me ask -- 9 A. You asked me a question. 10 Q. Go ahead. 11 A. The manufacturer o f a product - 12 Q. Right. 13 A. - Has responsibility, the 14 manufacturer o f a product to leam about that 15 which it knows about its product. 16 Q. Warn whom? W arn. N ot leam. 17 MR. SPEZIALI: Same objection. 18 A . The m anufacturer o f a product has a 19 responsibility to warn. 20 Q. Whom? 21 A. W e're talking in the abstract, and I 22 need to know which different type o f products. 23 I'd say in general those people who may 24 encounter that type o f hazard from their 25 product. PRIORITY-ONE COURT REPORTING, INC. (718) 983-1234 62 (Pages 242 to 245) Page 246 1 Maijorie A. Drucker - Direct 1 2 Q. Okay. 2 3 A. The manufacturer's own product, that 3 4 which they make. 4 5 Q. Do you have an opinion as to whether 5 6 or not the manufacturer of a piece o f equipment 6 7 who knows that a potentially hazardous substance 7 8 is being put on its equipment has a duty to warn 8 9 or not? 9 10 M R. SPEZLALI: Objection. There's no 10 11 evidence to support your hypothetical. 11 12 Q. You can answer. 12 13 A. As I said before, the manufacturer o f 13 14 a product has a responsibility to warn. I think 14 15 that the manufacturer --were your questions 15 16 related to something else? M aybe you can clarify 16 17 that. 17 18 Q. Sure. 1 said does the manufacturer of 18 19 a product which the m anufacturer knows is going 19 20 to have a potentially hazardous substance placed 20 21 on it have an obligation to warn? 21 22 A. Warn about what? 22 23 Q. Warn about the dangerous o f the 23 24 product that's being placed. 24 25 A. Warn about what kind o f dangers? 25 Page 248 ; Maijorie A. Drucker - Direct Drucker testify about an employer's l obligation or a sophisticated user's obligation to warn people. If you're not going to go into that, I'm not going to go | into this. She dropped the mantra a couple times. i MR. SPEZIALI: Because you insist over t my objection to take her to areas she's not going to testify about. She is going to testify about the responsibility o f the | United States Navy, what they published and f what they said they were going to do in 1 their specs in respect to your plaintiffs' alleged exposure to equipment made by GE. MR. KRISTAL: Responsibility. MR. SPEZIALI: About what their declaration, about what they said they were going to do. MR. KRISTAL: But not what their legal i responsibility or not was? MR. SPEZIALI: I don't think that's permissible for your experts or mine. MR. KRISTAL: I don't disagree with f you. 1 Page 247 Page 249 i 1 Maijorie A. Drucker - Direct 1 Maijorie A. Drucker - Direct 2 Q. Any kind o f dangers. 2 Q. What is your opinion as to what the 3 A. Let me finish my answer. 3 United States Navy said it was going to do with 4 MR. SPEZIALI: Go ahead. 4 respect to asbestos? Do you have an opinion? 5 A. Warn about what? The manufacturer can 5 A. When? i 6 warn about its own type o f product. What can a 6 Q. At any point in time. 7 manufacturer sit in the abstract and imagine 7 A. Ask me a question, Til try to answer 8 other kinds o f things that m ay or may not go in 8 it. ? 9 situations in which they have no control over? 9 Q. I ju st did. 10 One manufacturer, in over 30 years, I've never 10 A. I don't understand your question. * 11 heard o f one manufacturer warning about another 11 It's huge. 12 manufacturer's product. 1 never heard about that 12 Q. At any point in time, do you have an 13 in over 32 years. 13 opinion as to what the U nited States Navy said 14 Q. Do you know what the legal 14 about what it was going to do about asbestos? 15 responsibility is o f an equipment manufacturer 15 A. At any point in time? 16 to warn about the hazards o f another 16 Q. Yes. 17 manufacturer's product that it knows is going to 17 A. This is so vague. 18 be utilized with its product? 18 Q. W ell, if you say no, then w e move on. 19 MR. SPEZIALI: Objection. 19 A. The N avy said a lot o f things over 20 MR. KRISTAL: I'm ju st asking a 20 periods o f time. If you point to certain things, 21 question. 21 I'd be happy to answer. 22 MR. SPEZIALI: No, no. It's 22 Q. M y question is, do you have an 23 irrelevant. Number one, she's not here as 23 opinion as to whether or not the Navy said 24 an expert in law. 24 anything about what it was going to do with 25 MR. KRISTAL: You're going to have Ms. 25 regard to asbestos at any point in time? Do you PRIORITY-ONE COURT REPORTING, INC. (718) 983-1234 63"5^ ^ s"m 61co249) a v e ussr qnmoiT. 3 A. Well, I have various opinions, and, 4 if you ask me different questions about 5 different types o f situations over different 6 periods o f time I'll give you answers. 7 Q. How about the 1930s? 8 A. How about the 1930s? 9 Q. Yes. 10 A. The question again? Could you frame 11 the question again? 12 Q. Sure. 13 MR. KRISTAL: Dave, I want to make 14 sure this is the subject you're covering. 15 What the Navy said it was going to do about 16 asbestos, is that w hat you're going to have 17 her testify about? 18 Q. I'm trying to use the words you used. 19 I want to get the information I'm entitled to. 20 Here's the question. Do you have an opinion 21 about w hat the U nited States Navy said they were 22 going to do in their specs in respect to the 23 plaintiffs' alleged exposure to equipment made 24 by GE? Do you have an opinion on that subject at 25 any point in time? lilv !, itv' . i t ..0.1 V i U v \ . V t s , v.t.. 3 control over its premises, its people and what 4 goes on in the Navy. 5 Q. Okay. 6 MR. KRISTAL: Are you going to be 7 asking her that, because a portion o f the 8 answer dealt with responsibility to 9 maintain its own premises? If that's not 10 coming out, than I don't need to go into 11 the other. But I want to know if we're 12 going to hear that in court? 13 MR. SPEZIALI: I am going to ask her 14 whether based on her knowledge o f the Navy 15 GE had an option o f going aboard these 16 ships without their approval? I mean, you 17 know I'm going to get into the Navy, what 18 you can or can't do with respect to the 19 Navy. Whose rules are they? Whose specs are 20 they? I am going to get into that with her. 21 MR. KRISTAL: But not to the Navy's 22 responsibility to maintain their own 23 premises? 24 MR. SPEZIALI: Sure. I'm going to ask 25 her who maintains their ships. Is that what Page 251 1 Marjorie A. Drucker -Direct 2 A. I don't understand your question. 3 Q. I'm ju st rephrasing what Mr. 4 Speziali said was the subject. He said, "She's 5 going to testify about the responsibility o f the 6 United States Navy, what they published and what 7 they said they were going to do in their specs 8 in respect to your client's alleged exposure to 9 equipment made by GE." 10 I'm asking you if you have such an 11 opinion? 12 A. W ell, it's a very general question, 13 and I'll answ er it as best I can. The United 14 States N avy w as a highly sophisticated entity. 15 It was a highly sophisticated customer o f many 16 places, including General Electric. They had the 17 ability and responsibility to maintain and 18 control their ow n prem ises and employees, and 19 they had long-standing knowledge about asbestos 20 and disease. 21 Q. Anything else? 22 A. The United States Navy from my 23 experience maintains a very tight control over 24 its own environments. I'm familiar with that 25 having worked for the Navy as a civilian in a Page 253 1 Marjorie A. Drucker - Direct 2 you mean? 3 Q. When you said "maintain their own 4 premises," you weren't talking about maintenance 5 on the ship? 6 A. I meant control. The Navy controls 7 its premises, the equipment, materials, how they 8 do it, what they do. The Navy is in control, 9 and, I can tell you from having worked for the 10 Navy that the Navy runs its own ships. 11 Q. Did the Navy allow -- 12 A. So to speak. 13 Q. Did the Navy allow any warnings for 14 any hazardous substances that were authorized at 15 any point in time in the Navy? 16 A. Did the Navy allow? I'd have to look 17 at Navy specs. The N avy did what the Navy wanted 18 to do. 19 Q. My question is, are you aware one way 20 or the other whether the Navy allowed any 21 manufacturer of any kind of product to put any 22 kind o f warning about the hazards o f that 23 product or the products used with that product? 24 A. I can't tell you if there were labels 25 on boxes or what. All I know is, anything that PRIORITY-ONE COURT REPORTING, INC. (718) 983-1234 64 (Pages 250 to 253) Page 254 Page 256 | 1 Marjorie A. Drucker -Direct 1 Maijorie A. Drucker - Direct j! 2 goes on a ship or on the harbor is done by spec 2 Navy would or would not have allowed? $ 3 and approved by the Navy, that nothing gets on 3 A. The Navy would allow what the Navy 4 without their absolute control. 4 would allow. They were the ultimate, they \ 5 Q. M y question to you is whether or not 5 decided what they were going to do. They decided j 6 you have an opinion as to whether or not the 6 how it was going to be done. They decided what \ 7 Navy allowed any manufacturer with respect to 7 would be done, how it would be left and they 8 its products or any other manufacturer's 8 were completely in charge. They were in control \ 9 products to put a warning about any hazardous 9 over the places, over the people. They were in ;j 10 substance on or with the product? 10 control. 11 A. And, again, I would say that what is 11 Q. Since you don't know whether anyone i 12 on or with the product, anything that is 12 asked, I take it you have no opinion as to \ 13 installed that is part o f a ship, that is part 13 whether or not the Navy would or wouldn't have 14 o f a Navy installation onshore is done by spec and 14 allowed a warning on asbestos-containing ; 15 every step o f the way is approved by w hat the 15 products or about asbestos-containing products? 16 Navy will allow. 16 A. I do have an opinion. 17 Q. I'm asking you if you know one way or 17 Q. And what's your opinion? f 18 the other w hether the Navy allowed anyone to 18 A. Well, I have an opinion. You're 19 warn about anyone? 19 talking about warnings in general? 20 A. That's broad. 20 Q. I'm not talking about warnings in | 21 Q. I'm asking you the broadest question 21 general now. I'm talking very specifically about 22 I can think of on that question. If the answer 22 asbestos. 23 is no, it eliminates a lot of narrower 23 A. HI tell you something. When you 24 questions. 24 work for the Navy they are veiy much aware of 25 A. I don't know. 25 maintaining their personnel and how things are ; Page 255 1 A Page 257 1 Marjorie A. Drucker - Direct 1 Marjorie A. Drucker - Direct 2 Q. So you don't know. How about with 2 done, and, if somebody were to put on some sort 3 respect to asbestos, do you know if any 3 o f you're talking about a warning, what did you 4 manufacturer ever requested of the Navy that 4 say label? What's your word? 5 5 they be allowed to put a warning on any product 5 Q. Any sort o f warning. 6 that contained asbestos or product that was used 6 A. Any sort o f warning? 7 with a product that contained asbestos? 7 Q. In a manual, on the product, on a 8 MR. SPEZIALI: Objection. 8 sign on a product, any kind o f warning. ; 9 A. You're talking about a manufacturer 9 A. I'm saying that anything that is 10 and then you're talking about another type o f 10 anywhere is approved by the Navy, but, I can j 11 thing that's not a manufacturer. 11 tell you that the Navy would not allow any kind | 12 Q. I'm talking about a company that 12 o f sign or anything that might be considered 13 manufactures an asbestos-containing product and 13 disruptive, that they would only allow something 14 a company which manufactures a product on which 14 that would be in accordance with Naval 15 are asbestos-containing products? 15 principles and operations. 1 16 A. W hat kind o f warning? 16 Q. Well, certainly it was in accord ? 17 Q. Any kind o f warning about the hazards 17 with - 1 18 o f asbestos. 18 A. Somebody couldn't ju st voluntarily 19 A. All I know is that when you deal with 19 say, you know, we're going to ju st do a sign or 20 the Navy the only thing you can have there is 20 a label. That's not the way it works at the 21 what they allow. So I don't know if anybody 21 United States Navy. Everything is speced out. 22 asked, but I know that we only could do what 2 2 Everything is done the w ay the Navy wants it, 23 they allowed you to do. 23 and, it's the Navy way or no way. It's the Navy 24 Q. And if you don't know if anybody 24 who has control o f these places. 25 asked, I take it then you don't know whether the 25 Q. Certainly it would be in accord with PRIORITY-ONE COURT REPORTING, INC. (718) 983-1234 65 (Pages 254 to 257) Page 262 Page 264 | 1 Marjorie A. Drucker - Direct 1 Marjorie A. Drucker -D irect l 2 allow something that would be in accordance with 2 MR. SPEZIALI: W hat 3 Naval principles and operations." 3 asbestos-containing products? 4 My question is, are you saying that a 4 MR. KRISTAL: Any asbestos-containing | 5 warning about the hazards o f asbestos on an 5 product. | 6 asbestos-containing product or with a product on 6 A. For a period o f time GE wire and I 7 which asbestos-containing products were used 7 cable had a warning on it starting around 1972 1 8 would not be in accord with Naval principles and 8 in response to some tests that were done on the * 9 operations? 9 wire and cable and also in response to OSHA. 10 A. As I said, everything done for the 10 Q. Okay. How about otherwise? 11 Navy is done the Navy way. But a warning doesn't 11 MR. SPEZIALI: How about otherwise | 12 tell somebody how to work with something safely. A 12 what? | 13 warning doesn't convey what the person is 13 MR, KRISTAL: There was no GE warnings I 14 supposed to do. Everything depends on various 14 on any piece o f equipment on which 15 situations. It's the health and safety 15 asbestos-containing products went other 16 professionals at the site who are in control o f 16 than what you j ust said. 17 the place, in this case the Navy who's 17 MR. SPEZIALI: Okay. 18 responsible. 18 A. W ell, a metal product is not an 1 19 It's inconceivable to expect an 19 asbestos product. I described for you before the 20 outside firm or company to inteiject itself into 20 types o f products that GE made that contained g 21 another employer's workplace, let alone die 21 asbestos. The wire or cable o f which was sold in 5 22 United States Navy, and start telling them what 22 1980 did have a warning for a period o f time, 23 to do and police their, the other employees. 23 and, then, the other two types o f products, 24 It's not the way the world works. 24 textolite and genol, were phased out in 1973 to 25 Q. So are you saying that a warning 25 1972 respectively. So there would be no reason i Page 263 Page 265 % 1 M aijorieA.Drucker -Direct 1 Maijorie A. Drucker -D irect | 2 about the hazards o f asbestos is not in accord 2 to do so. 1 3 with Naval principles and practices? 3 Q. Was the wire and cable that had the 4 MR. SPEZIALI: Objection. 4 asbestos warning starting in 1972 sold to the 5 A. I'm saying whatever is in accord with 5 Navy after 1972? 1 6 Naval principles, what they allow by spec, what 6 MR. SPEZIALI: Objection. Go ahead. 7 they allow on a ship is what they allow. I don't 7 A. No. 8 know how else to answer your question. It's 8 Q. How do you know? 9 naive to assume that somebody from the outside 9 A. If s my understanding that GE stopped 10 can dream up some sort o f thing that they think 10 selling cable to the Navy in the mid-fifties. f 11 should be done. Things are done in the Navy 11 Q. And it's your understanding that if 12 according to the Navy way. That's the way it is 12 GE had put a warning on its wire and cable in 13 and that's the way it works. 13 the 1950s the Navy would have taken it off? 1 14 Q. So a warning is in accord with Naval 14 MR. SPEZIALI: Objection. She never 15 principles and operations or is not in accord? 15 said that. 16 MR. SPEZIALI: Objection. 16 A. I never said that. t 17 A. Well, ifs, what the Navy says is 17 Q. The N avy wouldn't have allowed it? 18 acceptable in accord is what is done on the Navy 18 A. The Navy would have done what the 19 property, the ship and the shore. The Navy is in 19 Navy wanted to do, and that's the way it is. 20 control. The Navy is in control o f the 20 Q. And I'm asking you, if GE had 21 workplace, they're in control o f the premises, 21 requested o f the Navy that they wanted to put an 22 they're in control o f the people. 2 2 asbestos warning on its w ire and cable product, 23 Q. Did GE ever place a warning on any o f 23 ifs your opinion that the Navy would not have 24 its asbestos-containing products or any 24 allowed that? 25 equipment on which any equipment went non-Navy? 25 MR. SPEZIALI: Objection. PRIORITY-ONE COURT REPORTING, INC. (718) 983-1234 67 (Pages 262 to 265) Page 266 Page 268 ' 1 Marjorie A. Drucker - Direct 1 Marjorie A. Drucker - Direct 2 A. If we look back in time at their 2 MR. SPEZIALI: Objection. 3 role, there would have been no reason. We know 3 A. W e know there would have been no 4 now there was no reason to put the warning on 4 reason to do so. We know that. There wouldn't 5 the wire and cable ever, but, certainly, back in 5 have been a reason to put the warning on it 6 the 1950s there was no reason to suspect. All 6 ever. But, as I said before, the Navy being in 7 the levels were in appropriate PELs, asbestos 7 control o f its environment and specing out 8 was being handled responsibly at the time, and 8 exactly how they want things and how they want 9 there would have been no reason to put the label 9 everything, things have to be done according to 10 on to begin with, but, as I said before, 10 their specs. 11 whatever would be speced out by the Navy and 11 Q. Was there a hazard o f asbestos 12 allowed to be on the premises was that which 12 disease from the use of 100 percent asbestos 13 w ould be ultimately in the Navy. 13 cement at any point in time? 14 Q. And your opinion is that the Navy 14 MR. SPEZIALI: Objection. She's not 15 would not have allowed GE to put a warning on 15 being offered about that. She's not a 16 its w ire and cable products in 1950? 16 physician. 17 MR. SPEZIALI: Objection. This isn't a 17 Q. You don't have an opinion on that 18 wire and cable case. 18 question? 19 MR. KR1STAL: I understand. 19 MR. SPEZIALI: She's not being offered 20 MR. SPEZIALI: Why are we talking 20 for that purpose. 21 about wire and cable? 21 MR. KRISTAL: Okay. 22 Q. Go ahead. 22 Q. Do you have an opinion? 23 A. Could you kindly repeat that? 23 A. I really wasn't prepared to deal with 24 Q. I'm not asking you whether a warning 24 that today, so, as I sit here today, I haven't 25 should or shouldn't have been on wire and cable 25 thought about that. Page 267 Page 269 : 1 Marjorie A. Drucker - Direct 1 Marjorie A. Drucker - Direct 2 in the 1950s. I'm asking if it's your opinion if 2 Q. If a manufacturer o f raw asbestos 3 GE requested the Navy to put a warning on its 3 fiber was supplying the Navy and wanted to put a 4 asbestos-containing wire and cable your opinion 4 warning on the burlap bags in the 1930s, 5 is the Navy would not have allowed it? 5 forties, fifties, or sixties, are you saying the 6 MR. SPEZIALI: Objection. 6 Navy wouldn't have allowed that manufacturer to 7 Q. Is that your opinion, yes or no? 7 put a warning about asbestos? 8 A. My answer is what I can give you. 8 MR. SPEZIALI: Objection. 9 Q. Is your answer yes or no? 9 A. What I can tell you is that whatever 10 A. It's not a yes or no question. 10 got, whatever stayed with that ship would have 11 Q. I'm asking, in your opinion, would 11 only been allowed by Navy spec. So, you know, 12 the Navy have allowed it? 12 whether they brought on the bags and thew them 13 A. It's not a yes or no. 13 o ff and they didn't stay, I don't know. All I 14 Q. The Navy would have allowed it or 14 know is what stays on that ship is according to 15 wouldn't have allowed it. There's not too many 15 Navy spec and that's the way it is. 16 answers here. 16 Q. My question is whether you have an 17 MR. SPEZIALI: Answer how you feel 17 opinion as to whether a warning would have been 18 appropriate. 18 allowed on a bag o f 100 percent asbestos fiber 19 A. I worked for the Navy. They spec out 19 if it was supplied to the Navy at any point in 2 0 what they w ant and how they w ant it, and that's 20 time? 21 what ultimately is used by the Navy. 21 MR. SPEZIALI: Same objection. 22 Q. So you don't know if the Navy would 22 A. I have an opinion as to what would 23 or wouldn't have allowed GE to put a warning on 23 be, what would stay on that ship and what would 24 its wire and cable product that contained 24 be allowed to stay on that ship, and that is 25 asbestos? 25 that which is speced out as far as speced out PRIORITY-ONE COURT REPORTING, INC. (718) 983-1234 68 (Pages 266 to 269) 1 Marjorie A. Drucker - Direct Page 270 1 Marjorie A. Drucker - Direct Page 272 :? 2 bags are concerned. 2 ships. And to think otherwise - 3 Q. How would you know - 3 Q. Do you know what a turbine technical 4 A. I'm not done. 4 manual is? 5 MR. SPEZIALI: Go ahead and finish 5 A. If you're talking about a manual that i 6 your answer. 6 may or may not accompany a piece o f metal 7 A. I do know that what stays on the ship 7 equipment like a turbine, yes. 8 is that which is according to military spec and 8 Q. Do you know whether or not GE I 9 is approved by the Navy. 9 supplied w ith its turbines technical manuals for X 10 Q. I f there was on a ship a bag o f 100 10 Navy turbines? 11 percent asbestos cement that w as used for 11 A. My understanding is that the Navy 12 repairing insulation that was on a turbine and 12 speced out, and, if the Navy requested a manual, 1 13 the m anufacturer o f that 100 percent asbestos 13 then GE, you know, they worked it out with the f 14 cement in the 1930s, forties, fifties or sixties 14 Navy, would supply it. But that was done at the \ 15 had requested o f the Navy that they want to put 15 request o f the Navy. It was part o f a contract. 16 a warning about asbestos on that bag o f 100 16 It was something that they paid for. 17 percent asbestos cement, is it your opinion that 17 Q. I w ant you to assume that the Navy 18 the Navy w ould not have allowed that? 18 requested G E to supply technical manuals with 19 MR. SPEZIALI: Same objection. 19 its materials. All right? * 20 A. The Navy would allow what they allow 20 A. That's not the case always, but if 21 by spec. 21 you want me to assume it for now. 22 Q. And I'm asking you if a manufacturer 22 Q. Is it sometimes the case? 23 requested to do that would the Navy not have 23 A. My understanding is it's not, a 24 allowed them to do that? 24 manual is not always requested from the 25 A. You're talking about the 25 manufacturer, in this case GE. It depended on | i Page 271 Page 273 | 1 M aijorie A. Drucker - Direct 1 Maijorie A. Drucker - Direct 2 manufacturer? 2 the contract that the Navy had with GE. If they \ 3 Q. I'm talking about the manufacturer. 3 paid extra they got a manual. Whatever they 4 A. O f that particular cement? 4 worked out. It was all done by contract. | 5 Q. Yes. 5 Q. I want you to assume we're dealing 6 A. That asbestos product? 6 with a contract which the Navy requested a I 7 Q. Yes. 7 technical manual for its turbines. Are you with 8 A. I do know what ultimately would be on 8 me so far? 9 that ship would be that which would be allowed 9 A. I am. 10 by the Navy. I've said that over and over. I 10 Q. IfG E said to the Navy we would like ; 11 don't know how much clearer I can make it. 11 to put in our technical manual a warning about 12 Q. But with respect to the bag o f cement 12 the hazards o f asbestos insulation that we know 13 that's on the ship to be used for repairs, you 13 about on our turbine, are you saying the Navy \ 14 don't know whether the N avy w ould or wouldn't 14 would not have allowed that? 15 have approved it, the use o f the warning at any 15 MR. SPEZIALI: Objection. 16 point in tim e? 16 A. W hen you say "a warning," what kind 17 MR. SPEZIALI: Same objection. 17 o f warning are you talking about? A warning 18 A. W ell, as regards to the manufacture 18 doesn't tell somebody how to work with something 19 o f that asbestos-containing cement product, 19 safely. W hat is involved in a warning, and, 20 maybe, maybe not. What I said was what stays on 20 rather, what is involved in a health and safety 21 the ship is that which is allowed by the Navy 21 situation is an assessment by a health and 22 because the Navy runs their ships and their 22 safety professional because there are a myriad 23 shore. Because the Navy has certain procedures 23 o f factors that can be involved. There is no one 24 that have to be followed, the Navy only allows 24 size fits all safety warning or safety label 25 certain things, and that's what is done on 25 that can be put in a manual on anything that PRIORITY-ONE COURT REPORTING, INC. (718) 983-1234 69 (Pages 270 to 273) 1 Marjorie A. Drucker - Direct Page 274 1 Marjorie A. Drucker - Direct Page 276 2 would apply in various situations. In fact, that 3 can be downright dangerous. 4 You can have situations where you're 2 people who have control o f the environment are 3 the ones that can look at a health and safety 4 situation in its totality. Nothing can be taken 5 telling somebody the wrong thing because they 5 out o f context and just looked at as a single 6 can be working w ith things that could interact 6 type o f item. There are a myriad o f factors that 7 and be harmful and cause serious harm to the 7 are involved on ships that can cause serious 8 person. So it's the health and safety 8 harm, and all those need to be addressed. 9 professional people who have control o f the 9 MR. KRISTAL: To the extent I need to 10 environment who are the ones who are qualified 10 do it, I move to strike the non-responsive 11 to make determinations and to devise certain 11 portion o f that answer. 12 measures so that people are safe in different 12 Why don't we break with the agreement 13 situations. 13 we need to get a whole host o f materials. 14 MR. SPEZIALI: It's five after five. 14 MR. SPEZIALI: I'm going to ask you to 15 MR. KRISTAL: Let me just finish. 15 make a specific request, and I'll tell you t 16 M R. SPEZIALI: She has to catch an 16 why. Some I think we're not going to have ( 17 airplane. 17 any problem. Some I ju st can't sit here and 18 Q. I f GE had requested o f the Navy that 18 agree to. 19 they w ant to put information in their technical 19 MR. KRISTAL: It will be reflected in 2 0 manual that the use o f asbestos-containing 20 the transcript. 21 insulation on their turbines may cause disease, 21 MR. SPEZIALI: Let me know. 22 are you saying that the Navy would not have 22 MR. KRISTAL: When you get your copy 23 allowed that? 23 it will list the request and the page. 24 MR. SPEZIALI: Objection, 24 MR. SPEZIALI: I'm probably not going 25 A. That the use o f their turbines may 25 to agree to all o f them. Page 275 1 Marjorie A . Drucker - Direct 2 cause asbestos? 3 Q. Listen to m y question. You missed my 4 question. GE w anted to put information in the 5 technical manual that the use of 6 asbestos-containing insulation on its turbine 7 could pose a hazardous disease. Are you saying 8 that the Navy would not have allowed GE to do 9 that? 10 MR. SPEZIALI: Objection. 11 A. I never heard of one manufacturer 12 warn o f another manufacturer. 13 Q. I'm not asking if you've heard of 14 that. 15 A. GE wouldn't be privy to all the ins 16 and outs. It's absurd. 17 Q. I'm asking i f the Navy would or would 18 not have allowed that, in your opinion? 19 MR. SPEZIALI: Objection. 20 A. Maybe, m aybe not. 21 Q. Okay. 22 A. What I can say is that I have never 23 seen one manufacturer warn about another 24 manufacturer's product. That may or may not, as 25 I said, the health and safety professionals Page 277 1 Marjorie A. Drucker - Direct 2 MR. KRISTAL: That's fine. You will 3 have the universe o f what I requested 4 through the transcript. 5 MR. SPEZIALI: For purposes o f teeing 6 up a motion we can go that route. That's 7 fine. 8 Q. Thank you. I hope it wasn't as 9 horrible as it could have been. 10 A. Very nice to meet you. 11 (Deposition Concluded. 12 Time Noted: 5:10 p.m.) 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 PRIORITY-ONE COURT REPORTING, INC. (718) 983-1234 70 (Pages 274 to 277) Page 278 1 ? 3 4 5 C E R T I F I C A T IO N OF WITNESS 0 7 I have read the foregoing transcript o f my 8 deposition and find it to be true and 9 accurate to the best o f my knowledge and 10 belief. 11 12 13 MARJORIE A. DRUCKER 14 15 16 Sworn and subscribed to before me on this 17 day o f , 2004 18 19 Notary Public 20 Mv Commission Expires 21 22 23 24 25 Page 279 1 2 CERTIFICATE J1 4 STATE OF NEW YORK ) 5 COUNTY OF NEW YORK ) 0 7 I, ELEANOR SEKULIC, a Notary Public o f the 8 State o f New York, do hereby certify that the 9 foregoing deposition of MARJORIE A. DRUCKER was 10 taken before me on June 3,2004. 11 The said witness was duly sworn before the 12 commencement o f her testimony, the said 13 testimony was taken stenographically by myself 14 and then transcribed. The within transcript is a 15 true record o f the said deposition. 16 I am not connected by blood or marriage 17 with any of the said parties, nor interested 18 directly or indirectly in the matter in 19 controversy, nor am I in the employ o f any of 20 the Counsel. 21 22 Dated: 23 24 25 ELEANOR SEKULIC PRIORITY-ONE COURT REPORTING, INC. (718) 983-1234 1 j i 1 i V / 71 (Pages 278 to 279)