Document ba9EM8O52z8GG0E596JxNvVEy

Official Trial Transcript 11/18/08 Page 211 IN THE CIRCUIT COURT FOR BALTIMORE CITY IN RE: PERSONAL INJURY * ASBESTOS LITIGATION * GEORGE JONES, et al., * November 12, 2008 * Trial Group Plaintiffs * Consolidated No. v. * 24-X-07-000297 * ACandS, INC., et al., * * Defendants * CASES AFFECTED: BENNIE BLACKMON * * 24-X-06-000754 OFFICIAL TRIAL TRANSCRIPT Opening Statements and Presentation of Evidence in the above-captioned case continued on Tuesday, November 18, 2008, commencing at 9:30 a.m., before the Honorable John M. Glynn, in Courtroom 236, Clarence M. Mitchell, Jr. Courthouse, 110 North Calvert Street, Baltimore, Maryland 21202, and reported by Denise M. Thomas and Barbara J. Evans, Notaries Public. EVANS REPORTING SERVICE Munsey Building 7 North Calvert Street, Suite 705 Baltimore, Maryland 21202 410.727.7100 800.256.8410 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 PROCEEDINGS Page 213 (In open court.) THE COURT CLERK: All rise. Circuit Court for Baltimore City, Part 8, is now in session. THE COURT: Please be seated. Good morning. ALL COUNSEL: Good morning, Your Honor. THE COURT: You had some question you wanted to ask. Somebody had a question. MR. MACDONALD: Your Honor, there are just a couple preliminary issues. The first is a Motion for Summary Judgment. You ordered the use plaintiffs - THE COURT: Yes. MR. MACDONALD: The first thing that needs to be done from the rules perspective is plaintiff needs to file proof of return, which I understand they have. And I'll be asking for an entry of any returns. MR. ZACHAROPOULOS: Good morning, Your 1 APPEARANCES: 2 On behalf of the Plaintiffs: 3 Scott L. Frost, Esquire 4 George Tankard, Esquire Demetrios Zacharopoulos, Esquire 5 6 On behalf of the Defendants: 7 R. Thomas Radcliffe, Jr., Esquire Steven J. Parrott, Esquire 8 Neil MacDonald, Esquire Eric R.I. Cottle, Esquire 9 James Lowery, Esquire 10 Also Present: Eric Massof, Law Clerk 11 Jenelle Moore, Court Clerk 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 Page 212 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 Page 214 Honor. Demetrios Zacharopoulos from Waters & Kraus on behalf of the plaintiff. I have with me three proofs of service along with the letters and a copy of the complaint that went out to the three use plaintiffs. Page 3 of each document is a copy of the certified return that has been signed. So at this time, I would like to move each one of these documents to become part of the file. THE COURT: They are received. MR. MACDONALD: And then, Your Honor, pursuant to the motion filed by Crane Co., we would ask for entry of the summary judgment on behalf of the defendants as to the use plaintiffs not represented by counsel. THE COURT: Those will be entered. Apparently, they have done nothing to protect their rights whatsoever. What is the number of that order so I can get it entered? MR. MACDONALD: I will get that. THE COURT: Make sure Eric gets that. 1 (Pages 211 to 214) Court Reporting in Baltimore/Washington Evans Reporting Service 800-256-8410 Over 20 years of award-winning service Official Trial Transcript 11/18/08 Page 215 Page 217 1 Okay? 1 MR. ZACHAROPOULOS: Yes, Your Honor. 2 MR. MACDONALD: Yes, Your Honor. 2 THE COURT: Tomorrow morning. 3 THE COURT: What else? 3 MR. MACDONALD: That's fine. 4 MR. MACDONALD: The other matters this 4 MR. ZACHAROPOULOS: That's fine. 5 morning, we did file a motion to compel on 5 MR. RADCLIFFE: Your Honor, I guess we 6 settlement documentation that hasn't been provided. 6 need to revisit the use plaintiffs. My 7 And I mentioned it to counsel this morning. We had 7 understanding is Mr. Blackmon had four children who 8 thought we were going to have the information last 8 are not parties to this case. 9 week. 9 And I understand that one of them is 10 In any event, because it was just filed 10 deceased, but that we found out yesterday that that 11 today, I would ask that Your Honor order some 11 deceased child had a daughter or another child who 12 timeframe for them to respond, but keeping in mind 12 may be a wrongful death beneficiary under the 13 that we need the settlement documentation in order 13 statute. 14 to know what we have to prove as far as our 14 My understanding of the statute is that 15 cross-claims are concerned, whether we need to go 15 it is mandatory, it is not permissive, and that it 16 through all the evidence and ask substantial factor 16 is an indispensable party. The estate on behalf of 17 causation questions or whether these are automatic 17 that minor child is an indispensable party. 18 shares. 18 THE COURT: What is this person's name? 19 So I would ask that the information -- 19 MR. PARROTT: Kayla. 20 that any response to this motion filed this morning 20 THE COURT: Kayla what? 21 be required to be responded to seasonably so that we 21 MR. RADCLIFFE: The child? I don't Page 216 Page 218 1 can hopefully have the information we are entitled 1 know their last name. 2 to as quickly as possible. 2 MR. ZACHAROPOULOS: Your Honor, it's 3 THE COURT: Is this controversial in 3 Samantha Jo Ramsey. 4 some way? 4 THE COURT: Samantha Jo Ramsey? That's 5 MR. ZACHAROPOULOS: It's not, Your 5 the -- 6 Honor. And we are going to work it out for sure. 6 MR. ZACHAROPOULOS: The name of the 7 THE COURT: Okay. When do you think 7 decedent's daughter. 8 you'll be able to do that? 8 THE COURT: So the party is the 9 MR. ZACHAROPOULOS: I am hoping by the 9 daughter, not the estate? 10 end of today, first thing tomorrow. 10 MR. RADCLIFFE: The wrongful death 11 THE COURT: We will just say -- we will 11 beneficiary is the daughter. Once she passes, her 12 give you until the 25th, next week. Is that too 12 rights as a wrongful death beneficiary vest in the 13 late for you? 13 estate to be transmitted to her daughter, the 14 MR. MACDONALD: I believe it is, Your 14 granddaughter. So that estate on behalf of the 15 Honor, because I need to know what the plaintiff's 15 granddaughter, as I understand it, is an 16 witnesses that are coming up next week -- before I 16 indispensable party for the wrongful death claim. 17 can ask them questions. 17 THE COURT: All right. What have we 18 THE COURT: All right. I got you. I 18 done about that? Has the plaintiff done anything on 19 got the point. 19 that? Did the plaintiff know about this? 20 All right. When can you do it? By 20 MR. ZACHAROPOULOS: No. 21 tomorrow, you think? 21 THE COURT: When did you learn this? Court Reporting in Baltimore/Washington Evans Reporting Service 800-256-8410 2 (Pages 215 to 218) Over 20 years of award-winning service Official Trial Transcript 11/18/08 Page 219 Page 221 1 MR. ZACHAROPOULOS: Just now. 1 Now, I'll be honest, I haven't read the 2 MR. FROST: We probably learned about 2 statute to figure out if you don't know where a 3 it yesterday, Your Honor, but we have not -- 3 person is, how you would give notice. And I would 4 THE COURT: What are we going to do 4 assume that -- 5 about that? What can we do about that? We are 5 THE COURT: You probably publish it in 6 ready to go, so what do we do now? Anybody? Any 6 papers with general circulation in whatever 7 brilliant ideas? 7 jurisdiction you thought they lived in. 8 MR. MACDONALD: Your Honor, the only 8 Does anybody know where she lived? 9 thing that can happen is -- 9 MR. FROST: What I have been told is 10 MR. RADCLIFFE: We have to sever the 10 that once the mother died, the person has had no 11 wrongful death action. 11 further contact with the family as of this point. 12 MR. MACDONALD: Actually, I think it 12 We have no idea where she is. 13 would be a dismissal because it would be a mistrial. 13 THE COURT: When last heard of, where 14 MR. RADCLIFFE: We can proceed with the 14 did she live? 15 survivorship. 15 MR. FROST: Hold on a second. 16 THE COURT: So we dismiss any wrongful 16 THE COURT: I'm not sure that's going 17 death claim as to that plaintiff? 17 to do me any good, but -- 18 MR. RADCLIFFE: No. The entire 18 MR. MACDONALD: It actually is 19 wrongful death claim. The wrongful death claim 19 pertinent because the 15-101 does say you give 20 cannot proceed without that indispensable party. So 20 notice at the last known address. 21 it will have to be dismissed and refiled with all 21 MR. FROST: It appears that there was a Page 220 Page 222 1 parties at a later date. 1 divorce in the family prior to the death and that 2 MR. MACDONALD: Otherwise, Your Honor, 2 the father had custody of the daughter and took the 3 it would be an advisory opinion, anything that this 3 daughter out of state. And no one knows -- at least 4 jury would do. The jury would sit for three weeks 4 this part of the family has no idea where they are. 5 and would render a non-binding opinion. 5 THE COURT: And they were last in South 6 THE COURT: What do we do about that? 6 Carolina? 7 That sort of makes this whole thing a waste of time. 7 MR. FROST: Yes, Your Honor. 8 MR. RADCLIFFE: It doesn't make it a 8 THE COURT: They were in South 9 waste of time, Judge. We are ready to proceed on 9 Carolina? 10 the survivorship claim. 10 MR. FROST: North Carolina. North 11 MR. FROST: Well, it does make it a 11 Carolina. The Carolinas. 12 waste of time, Your Honor. 12 THE COURT: Right. I got you. 13 THE COURT: The wrongful death claim -- 13 I have to admit, I don't claim to be an 14 MR. FROST: Is the claim that we are 14 expert on this area of the law. What are the 15 trying. 15 implications of all this? What is it -- in 16 The real fundamental problem is nobody 16 practical terms, where does it leave us right now? 17 knows where this person is. So according to what I 17 MR. RADCLIFFE: Where it leaves us 18 have been told this morning, even if they are 18 right now, I believe, is that the wrongful death 19 correct that she is a wrongful death beneficiary, 19 claim has not been joined properly, so it is not 20 not knowing where that person is makes it impossible 20 right, and it should not be tried. The survivorship 21 for me to give notice. 21 claim is ready to go. Court Reporting in Baltimore/Washington Evans Reporting Service 800-256-8410 3 (Pages 219 to 222) Over 20 years of award-winning service Official Trial Transcript 11/18/08 Page 223 Page 225 1 THE COURT: Well, how would that affect 1 say on the record what I think. I might get in 2 this trial? 2 trouble. I don't know what the appellate court is 3 MR. RADCLIFFE: It doesn't affect the 3 going to do, Judge. I don't know. If you are 4 trial at all. We go forward on the survivorship 4 asking me do I think that the sky is going to fall, 5 claim, we hear all the same evidence, and the jury 5 no, I don't think the sky is going to fall. 6 is asked to award damages that only relate to the 6 THE COURT: Okay. Let's do this. This 7 survivorship claim. 7 is an issue that I have never thought about. It's 8 THE COURT: How are they going to do 8 never really come up that I can remember. Let's 9 that in their heads? 9 get -- Eric, are all the jurors here now? Let's get 10 MR. RADCLIFFE: The same way they do it 10 the case. Do the opening statements and reserve on 11 all the time, Judge. It's the pain and suffering 11 this issue, and by tomorrow morning, figure out what 12 from whatever plaintiffs prove up until the time 12 you think. 13 that he passed away, any economic loss that there is 13 MR. FROST: Yes, Your Honor. 14 as a result of the illness. This is no different 14 MR. COTTLE: Your Honor, before we 15 from what the juries do all the time, it's just half 15 bring in the jury, we just have an objection to a 16 of what they do. 16 slide or two that the plaintiff is going to show in 17 MR. MACDONALD: And, actually, 17 opening. 18 Mr. Hoffman's office never even brings wrongful 18 THE COURT: Yes. What is wrong? 19 death claims. So it's just like his cases would be, 19 MR. COTTLE: It deals with the each and 20 you don't have a wrongful death claim. 20 every exposure. Basically, the slide says each and 21 THE COURT: Now, at the moment, there 21 every exposure caused or contributed to the disease. Page 224 Page 226 1 is a wrongful death claim in this case? 1 We discussed this last week. 2 MR. FROST: Yes, Your Honor, there is. 2 THE COURT: I know. It relates to the 3 Since I have just heard about this a few minutes 3 issue that we are going to have to piece together on 4 ago, Your Honor, I am not really sure how to react. 4 an ongoing basis. 5 THE COURT: Well, neither am I, 5 What do you want to do about those 6 frankly. So we are probably both in the same boat. 6 slides? 7 MR. FROST: We are. I guess I need 7 MR. FROST: Your Honor, I thought the 8 to -- 8 ruling last week was I was going to be able to open 9 THE COURT: Let me ask you this. What 9 on it because it's part of my evidence. And I am at 10 terrible thing happens -- I am always a big fan of 10 my own peril because if I don't, if it's not in, 11 keep moving forward no matter what happens. What 11 then, you know, the case takes its own course. 12 happens if we -- basically, this morning, we are 12 THE COURT: Falls apart. 13 going to do opening statements, things of that 13 All right. We will do it that way and 14 nature. We have already impaneled a jury and they 14 see what happens. You have a continuing objection 15 have been sworn. 15 on that issue. 16 If we do the opening statements and get 16 MR. COTTLE: Perfect. 17 started and then deal with this after Mr. Frost has 17 MR. RADCLIFFE: Thank you, Judge. 18 an opportunity to figure out what he thinks, 18 THE COURT: All right. What else? 19 something terrible happens? 19 Anything else, gentlemen, ladies? There are no 20 MR. RADCLIFFE: If I was to say off the 20 women at the bar. 21 record what I thought -- I don't know if I should 21 All right. So do you want to retrieve Court Reporting in Baltimore/Washington Evans Reporting Service 800-256-8410 4 (Pages 223 to 226) Over 20 years of award-winning service Official Trial Transcript 11/18/08 Page 227 Page 229 1 the jury? 1 Mr. Frost, are you ready to go? 2 (Jury present -- 9:42 a.m.) 2 MR. FROST: Yes. 3 THE COURT: Welcome back. Have a seat, 3 THE COURT: Mr. Frost, you may address 4 everyone. I hope you had a good weekend, despite 4 the jury. 5 the dismal performance of the Baltimore Ravens on 5 OPENING STATEMENTS 6 Sunday. 6 MR. FROST: Good morning. 7 I will just remind you briefly, listen 7 THE JURY: Good morning. 8 to all the evidence, keep your minds open until you 8 MR. FROST: When a company makes a 9 have heard all the evidence. Don't discuss the case 9 product, it must make sure that it's safe. 10 with anybody until I give it to you at the end of 10 MR. RADCLIFFE: Well, Judge, I object. 11 closing arguments at the end of the case. 11 That's an incorrect statement of law. 12 Now, you have all been sworn in, right, 12 THE COURT: Don't argue the law. It is 13 Madam Clerk? 13 an argument of sorts. Continue. That is not true 14 THE COURT CLERK: Yes. 14 in terms of the law, but go ahead. 15 THE COURT: What happens now is counsel 15 MR. FROST: If a product is not safe 16 will give brief opening statements. Those are not 16 and someone gets hurt, then the company is 17 what we call arguments. It's an opening statement, 17 responsible for that harm. 18 a preview of what they anticipate you will be 18 Now, the other thing that's important 19 hearing over the next two weeks. Both sides get to 19 is that the more dangerous something is, the more 20 address you. 20 careful you have to be with that thing. 21 But the opening statements are not 21 Now, in this case, it's your job to Page 228 Page 230 1 evidence. If parties should say something that 1 judge the facts. And we are going to bring you a 2 never gets proven in the case, then it's like they 2 lot of evidence. And this morning, I am not going 3 never said it. It's not evidence in and of itself. 3 to tell you how you should decide this case. What I 4 Okay? Everybody on the same page with me? 4 am going to do is to tell you what is the evidence 5 What we are going to try to do in terms 5 that you are going to see in this case and then kind 6 of schedule, so you all know, we are going to try to 6 of give you some ways to evaluate that evidence. 7 maintain, mostly for the lawyers' sake and your 7 And one of the important things is how 8 sake -- my children have all grown up and left home. 8 you weigh that evidence. And the Judge is going to 9 No one cares when I get home, so it doesn't matter. 9 instruct you on how you weigh that evidence. 10 My wife has a poor sense of time, so she frequently 10 But since this is a civil case, you 11 doesn't even know what time it is when I get home, 11 weigh that evidence on the standard more likely than 12 so it doesn't matter to me. 12 not. And that more likely than not standard is just 13 But we will try to go from 9:30 13 a very slight tipping of the scales just ever so 14 until -- we will take a break in the middle of the 14 much. 15 morning, like around 11, break at 12:45 or so, come 15 And what that means is that when you 16 back at 2, go to 4:30 or 5, take one break in the 16 are evaluating this evidence, when you are back in 17 middle. Okay? 17 the jury room and you are talking about what the 18 Any problems, let me know. Get my 18 evidence was, then what you do is you evaluate that 19 attention. Any issues that interfere with your 19 evidence with just that slight tipping of the 20 ability to follow the evidence, write me a note, 20 scales. And if the evidence that I present to you 21 okay, pass it to the Clerk. 21 just slightly tips those scales, then on that issue, Court Reporting in Baltimore/Washington Evans Reporting Service 800-256-8410 5 (Pages 227 to 230) Over 20 years of award-winning service Official Trial Transcript 11/18/08 Page 231 Page 233 1 the answer has to be yes. 1 about is what these companies knew and then what 2 And what is important about that is 2 they did. 3 that that applies to every single issue in this 3 Now, the first part you are going to 4 case. So when you are looking at credibility of 4 find out is these companies knew that asbestos was 5 witnesses, you are looking at every single issue, 5 dangerous. A lot of folks believe that we only 6 including the issue of how much money to award in 6 recently knew about the dangers of asbestos. But 7 this case, it's just that slight tipping of scales. 7 you are going to find out through the evidence in 8 So keep that in mind as you are going through the 8 this case from all of the experts that beginning in 9 evidence. 9 the 1930s and even before that, the dangers of 10 The other thing that's important in 10 asbestos were known. 11 dealing with the evidence is that there is different 11 Now, I want to talk to you about the 12 types of evidence. There is what we call direct 12 companies that are here, Goulds Pumps and Crane 13 evidence which is basically someone saw someone run 13 valves. 14 a red light and ran into someone, and then there is 14 I will talk to you first about Goulds 15 things called indirect evidence. 15 Pumps. Goulds Pumps is an old business. It's been 16 And the way to think about indirect 16 around for 150 years. They manufacture things that 17 evidence is what we lawyers call circumstantial 17 are called pumps. And we are going to talk to you a 18 evidence, but it's really fairly simple. 18 lot about pumps. And you are going to hear from 19 When I was younger, my father used to 19 Captain Lowell about pumps later this afternoon. 20 read to me Robinson Crusoe. And at the very 20 And he will explain those to you, exactly what pumps 21 beginning of Robinson Crusoe, he wakes up on the 21 are and how they work. Page 232 Page 234 1 beach and he is shipwrecked. And when he wakes up, 1 But Goulds has a long history beginning 2 he thinks he is all alone, but when he wakes up and 2 in the 1800s with building pumps. And you are going 3 he looks around a little bit, he sees some 3 to find out throughout this process that Goulds 4 footprints in the sand, and so he knows he is not 4 built pumps, Goulds was one of the largest 5 all alone. 5 manufacturers of pumps in this country and was on 6 Well, in the law, we call that 6 the cutting edge of pumps. 7 circumstantial evidence. So what that means is you 7 And you can see that they have had a 8 may not have an eyewitness, but you can have things 8 long history of innovation. And you will see 9 that show you that those particular things occurred. 9 throughout this that Goulds has a long history of 10 And that's why you have just that slight weighing. 10 being on the cutting edge of their pumps. But what 11 So it's important to keep all these things in the 11 they also were not on the cutting edge of is taking 12 mind as you are looking at the evidence in this 12 asbestos out of their pumps. 13 case. 13 You will find that in the 1930 14 Now, in this particular case, there is 14 timeframe, they started putting asbestos in their 15 basically three parts to this story. The first part 15 pumps. Even though everyone in the world literature 16 deals with the defendants in this case and what they 16 was hearing about the dangers of asbestos, they 17 knew about the dangers of asbestos. The second part 17 chose to put it in their pumps. 18 is because of what they chose not to do, 18 Now, Goulds Pumps, these pumps can 19 Mr. Blackmon suffered from a horrendous disease and 19 range from being small pumps to being a pump as 20 he died from that disease. 20 large as a human. And that's what they manufacture. 21 So the first part I want to talk to you 21 They manufacture large pumps and small pumps. Court Reporting in Baltimore/Washington Evans Reporting Service 800-256-8410 6 (Pages 231 to 234) Over 20 years of award-winning service Official Trial Transcript 11/18/08 Page 235 Page 237 1 Now, one of the things you need to do 1 worked as a machinist mate for 20 years, and if they 2 when you are evaluating the evidence in this case, 2 are in my area, I worked on them. 3 when folks show you pictures of things or they bring 3 And you are going to hear from Captain 4 out certain sizes of things, I want you to ask 4 Lowell and I think every Navy expert that's true. A 5 yourself is that what was on the ships that 5 machinist mate's job is to work on pumps and valves 6 Mr. Blackmon was on, because you are going to hear 6 and some other things. 7 that Mr. Blackmon served on ships. 7 So what you are going to see is that in 8 So when you are evaluating these 8 the area where Mr. Blackmon worked -- and we are 9 things, I need you to think about the size of 9 only talking about the area that he worked -- that 10 things, because you will hear that some of these 10 the records show that 12 of the 40 pumps in his area 11 pumps that Mr. Blackmon worked on were as big as 600 11 on those three ships that he spent the primary 12 pounds. So we are talking about some large pieces 12 amount of time of his duty on were Goulds. So 12 13 of machinery that he is working on. 13 out of 40 of the pumps are Goulds pumps on those 14 And Goulds made a variety of these 14 three ships. 15 things and a variety of sizes of them. This is 15 I want to talk to you a little bit 16 actually a picture of the types of pumps that are 16 about Crane. Crane makes valves. They are one of 17 involved in this case. And Captain Lowell is going 17 the largest manufacturers, and have been for years, 18 to explain to you this afternoon where the asbestos 18 of valves in this country. 19 is in these pumps. 19 Crane was founded in 1855. In 1868, 20 The thing that you are going to find 20 they started putting asbestos in their valves. And 21 out about Goulds -- and you have to keep people 21 we will talk to you a little bit about what a valve Page 236 Page 238 1 separate a little bit. You have to keep Crane 1 is. 2 separate because they made a different product than 2 Now, these products, they usually 3 Goulds Pumps. 3 contained two types of asbestos. They contain what 4 But what you are going to hear is that 4 is called a packing material and a gasket material. 5 Mr. Blackmon was on five ships. He spent most of 5 And Captain Lowell this afternoon will explain all 6 his time on a certain type of ship, what the United 6 that to you. 7 States Coast Guard calls a class of ships. 7 But the bottom line is that on each of 8 And these pictures that you see in 8 these products, the Goulds pumps and the Crane 9 front of you now are three of the ships that he 9 valves, there is asbestos in them and on them. 10 served on in that class. 10 So Crane also is unique in that in 11 Why is that important to you? Because 11 order for these pumps and valves to work in a steam 12 you are going to hear that there are ship records 12 system on a ship, they have to have gasket material 13 that indicate all of the Goulds pumps on those class 13 between them because these things are pieces of 14 of ships. And, therefore, those are the Goulds 14 metal. 15 pumps that are in the area that Mr. Blackmon worked 15 And as the pieces of metal, you can't 16 in. 16 just put them together on a ship, so what you have 17 Now, why is that important? Because 17 to do is you have to have something that goes in 18 you are going to hear from Mr. Blackmon when he was 18 between them. And what that thing is is a gasket. 19 very sick. And when you hear from him when he was 19 And what a gasket does is it allows you 20 very sick, he will not mention the name of Goulds. 20 to put those bolts together very tight and pull it 21 What he will tell you is I worked on pumps. I 21 together and keep it from leaking out. And when it Court Reporting in Baltimore/Washington Evans Reporting Service 800-256-8410 7 (Pages 235 to 238) Over 20 years of award-winning service Official Trial Transcript 11/18/08 Page 239 Page 241 1 starts leaking, then you have to change out the 1 there would have been Crane valves on it because 2 gaskets. 2 Crane valves were a common valve on steam ships, 3 So the asbestos in the pumps and valves 3 which are the types of ship Mr. Blackmon served on. 4 are at those points. There is also some on the 4 And you will hear that Crane was a 5 inside, too. And Captain Lowell is going to explain 5 widely known valve manufacturer. And these are just 6 that to you. But in between and inside, they have 6 some types of valves. And the reason I want to show 7 these things called gaskets. 7 you some different sizes is when you see different 8 Now, this gasket material is a material 8 sizes of valves, you need to understand that they 9 usually supplied by someone else, not the 9 start from the very small size to a bigger size like 10 manufacturer of the Goulds pumps. 10 these, and then they get even bigger, as big as a 11 In Crane, it's different. Crane 11 pallet, as big as a person. 12 actually manufactured their own asbestos-containing 12 And you will see that the way these 13 gasket material. And you will hear that Crane when 13 things fit is they fit into a steam system. And you 14 they supplied their valves at times put their own 14 are going to see that Mr. Blackmon's job was 15 material in their valves, which makes sense because 15 basically to work on these types of things and also 16 why would you go buy gasket material from other 16 to monitor them to make sure that the second that 17 folks if you make it yourself? And that gasket 17 they are out of tolerance, that you then figure out 18 material is called Cranite. And it was 75, 85 18 what that is. 19 percent asbestos. And that's just a better picture 19 And we have already talked about the 20 of it. 20 Cranite gaskets. 21 Crane also sold and distributed other 21 So what is a gasket and what does it Page 240 Page 242 1 asbestos products. And why is that important? It's 1 look like? Well, what you have in front of you 2 just so that you know how much they knew or should 2 right there is a flange. A flange is basically two 3 have known about the dangers of asbestos and whether 3 pieces of metal, like I said before. And what 4 they should have gone out and done a little research 4 happens is that you have these -- you see those big 5 on their products. They sold thermal insulation, 5 holes up there that kind of look like donuts? Those 6 pipe covering, a bunch of other things. 6 donut holes are where the bolts go through. And 7 So who did they sell these things to? 7 what happens is when you take the bolts off, you 8 Well, you are going to hear a lot about the United 8 pull it apart. And when you pull it apart, it looks 9 States Coast Guard because that's what Mr. Blackmon 9 like this. 10 served in for over 20 years. He began in the 1950s 10 Now, you do your work on the inside of 11 up until the early 1970s. 11 it, whatever has to be done, and then you have to 12 Also, you will hear that these folks 12 put it back together. And when you put it back 13 sold to industry, that just like that large Goulds 13 together, you have to put in a new gasket. 14 pump that was bigger than a man -- that's not on a 14 Now, the problem is that when you put 15 ship, but that just shows you what these folks do, 15 in the new gasket, you can't put it in when it looks 16 they sell to industry, they sell to the Coast Guard, 16 like this, so you have to clean it up. And the way 17 they sell to other folks in the marine industry. 17 you clean it up is you take a brush and you brush it 18 And Crane had a particular specialty in 18 off. And that brushing, the wire brushing -- and in 19 that they had the hugest supply on the market. You 19 this case, you will hear about some electric wire 20 will hear evidence that if a ship was a steam ship, 20 brushing -- that is where an individual gets exposed 21 in certain timeframes, that there is no doubt that 21 to those gaskets which are 75 to 85 percent Court Reporting in Baltimore/Washington Evans Reporting Service 800-256-8410 8 (Pages 239 to 242) Over 20 years of award-winning service Official Trial Transcript 11/18/08 Page 243 Page 245 1 asbestos. 1 England. And they went and they looked at what was 2 There is also this stuff called packing 2 happening in some English factories. And they found 3 on the inside. And when you put that into the 3 out that people were getting sick. 4 valves, you also get exposed to asbestos. 4 And what they did was they came up with 5 So when you see a flange like this and 5 suggestions in order to protect people. And you are 6 it's pulled apart, basically, what you have is that 6 going to hear that the suggestions and the 7 asbestos just pulling apart, and then both sides 7 recommendations that Merewether and Price said in 8 have to be cleaned by the individual working on it. 8 1930 are the same ones that people say today, that 9 Now, the thing that's important is that 9 you protect the workers, that you inform them, that 10 you are going to hear that there are different 10 you wet down areas and that you take precautions. 11 levels of exposures to asbestos. And you may hear 11 All of these things are things that we still tell 12 some folks say that gaskets and exposure to gaskets 12 people today. And Merewether and Price said it in 13 isn't really dangerous. And you will have testimony 13 the 1930s regarding asbestos. 14 and some documents in front of you that show you 14 Now, you may ask yourself, well, that 15 that exposure to gaskets are significantly high. 15 was over in England. Well, you are going to hear 16 And in this case, basically, Mr. Blackmon's job was 16 evidence that shortly after this study was published 17 to work with gaskets and packing. 17 in England, it made its way immediately to the 18 And so when you look at this evidence, 18 United States and was widely reported in the United 19 I need you to evaluate it and look at it in that 19 States. It was everywhere, and people were 20 context of what was he doing day-to-day and what 20 discussing it. 21 were his job requirements. 21 So you will hear that beginning in the Page 244 Page 246 1 Now, what was known about asbestos? 1 1930s, there is no doubt how to protect folks from 2 Well, it was known for decades that asbestos can 2 asbestos. 3 kill. And the thing about this is that when you are 3 Now, you will also hear evidence 4 evaluating this evidence, you have two ways to do 4 regarding Crane Company. You are going to hear 5 it. One is what did they know and what should they 5 about Dr. Harvey. Dr. Harvey has one of the 6 have known. And either way, as long as it meets 6 preeminent resumes in industrial hygiene. Some 7 that slight burden, then the plaintiff or my side 7 people credit him as being one of the very first 8 wins. 8 doctors in this country that dealt with industrial 9 So when you are evaluating this 9 diseases. 10 evidence about what was known or should have been 10 And you will hear that he was on 11 known, you have to look at it based on that just 11 committees and that he was involved with various 12 slight tipping of the scales. 12 organizations beginning in the 1900s and 1930s and 13 And what will the evidence be? I think 13 that all of these organizations talked about the 14 it will be undisputed that the literature beginning 14 dangers of asbestos. And Dr. Harvey was the medical 15 in the 1800s show asbestos in small amounts is 15 director for Crane Co. So you are going to hear 16 deadly. 16 that Crane Co. had actual knowledge of the dangers 17 In the 1930s, the books started to pile 17 of asbestos. 18 up and the articles and the literature showing that 18 You are also going to hear some 19 asbestos kills. In the 1930s, there is a seminal 19 information about Goulds Pumps. You are going to 20 study, you are going to hear an awful lot about it, 20 hear that they were members of trade organizations I 21 it's called Merewether and Price. It occurred in 21 guess is the best way to call them. But, basically, Court Reporting in Baltimore/Washington Evans Reporting Service 800-256-8410 9 (Pages 243 to 246) Over 20 years of award-winning service Official Trial Transcript 11/18/08 Page 247 Page 249 1 these are folks that are concerned about protecting 1 products to the United States Coast Guard and that 2 workers, and they are members of these. 2 these products when they came to the Coast Guard, 3 And what these folks did is they 3 they contained asbestos. 4 collected all the world's literature like Merewether 4 You are going to hear that they never 5 and Price, and they distributed it to their members 5 put any warnings on these products so that either 6 so that those folks could know what was going on. 6 the Coast Guard could protect their men or that the 7 And you will hear that this began in 7 men could protect themselves and that these products 8 the 1930s and Goulds was a member at various times 8 released asbestos when they were worked on and that 9 of these trade organizations, different ones, and 9 that's the way that they are designed to work. They 10 that these organizations were talking about the 10 don't work any way without you disturbing asbestos 11 dangers of asbestos. 11 in order to maintain them. 12 In the 1940s, as we move through time, 12 And you are going to hear particularly 13 you will see that -- we talked not only about the 13 in this case that Mr. Blackmon never received any 14 dangers of asbestos, but then it starts coming out 14 warnings in order to protect himself. And you are 15 that not only is asbestos dangerous and can cause a 15 also going to hear that these companies had the 16 disease called asbestosis, which is a deadly 16 ability to warn and that, really, it was kind of 17 disease, but asbestos can cause even cancer. 17 easy for them to do this. 18 And so in the 1930s, there is a 18 You will hear that these companies put 19 debilitating disease that can kill you called 19 and actually were required to put plates on their 20 asbestosis. And the reason that it's named 20 products. It's hard to see, but that says Goulds 21 asbestosis is it was named after asbestos because 21 Pumps. And it's a plate on a piece of machinery. Page 248 Page 250 1 that's what caused it. 1 And it has some information like serial numbers and 2 So in the 1940s, what happens is the 2 some things. But you also could put information on 3 doctors continue to study these folks, and they find 3 there such as warnings. 4 that people are getting cancer, lung cancer. 4 You are also going to hear in regard to 5 By the 1960s, thousands of articles are 5 Crane valves that Crane valves, you could actually 6 written about asbestos and the fact that it causes 6 have an instruction tag on those and that these 7 cancer. 7 instruction tags were helpful when installing. 8 Now, the other thing in regards to this 8 And so you are going to hear that this 9 literature is that you will see that and you will 9 is something -- I am not asking them to do anything 10 hear a lot about particularly what the doctors were 10 that they couldn't have done and that it wasn't easy 11 doing and that the doctors were reviewing these 11 to do. 12 things and that the doctors were looking at 12 You will even hear that in 1985, Crane 13 everything, that there were some doctors from Mount 13 Co. started putting a warning tag on their valves 14 Sinai in New York, and they were looking at these 14 for asbestos. You will also hear that Goulds Pumps 15 issues. 15 never, ever put a warning on any of their products. 16 But ask yourself, what are these 16 This is a valve. And we will talk a 17 companies doing? Are the companies doing anything 17 lot about valves, so I don't want to waste your time 18 while all this knowledge is building up? Are they 18 with that. But they have the ability to put caution 19 doing anything to help folks or to protect folks? 19 plates on them, to put warning plates on these 20 And that's why we are here. And you 20 things so that they can warn folks that are working 21 are going to hear that the company sold their 21 with these products about the dangers contained Court Reporting in Baltimore/Washington Evans Reporting Service 800-256-8410 10 (Pages 247 to 250) Over 20 years of award-winning service Official Trial Transcript 11/18/08 Page 251 Page 253 1 within them. 1 folks may remember during Katrina, those are the 2 The evidence will be in regards to 2 folks that went out there and were doing the search 3 Goulds Pumps and Crane that they did no research of 3 and rescue when everyone else was trying to figure 4 their own product, that they did no testing to 4 out what to do. Those were the guys out in the 5 ensure that these products that contained asbestos 5 helicopters jumping in to save folks. And that's 6 were exposing folks to one of the most harmful 6 what the Coast Guard does, they guard our coast and 7 things known to man. And that you will hear in 7 they help people, people that are in distress. If 8 regards to Mr. Blackmon that there were absolutely 8 you go out on a boat, these are the people that go 9 no warnings. 9 out and save you. So their mission is different. 10 So why didn't they warn? Just ask 10 Now, in wartime, the Navy -- they fall 11 yourself that when you are looking at this evidence. 11 under the Navy, and the Navy can use them for 12 Why didn't they warn? 12 whatever because they have boats. But their mission 13 So what happened with Mr. Blackmon? 13 day-to-day is to find and help people. It's not a 14 His name is Bennie Blackmon. I am going to call him 14 military mission as such. Even though they wear 15 Mr. Blackmon out of respect for him. He is 15 uniforms, their mission is not the military mission 16 deceased. You will hear from his family. They are 16 of destroying things. 17 here in the courtroom. And I am going to let them 17 So when you look at this evidence, I 18 tell you their story. 18 need you to know that there is a huge difference 19 But what is the story that you all need 19 between the United States Coast Guard and the United 20 to know in regards to these manufacturers? 20 States Navy, the United States Army and the Air 21 Well, Mr. Blackmon was in the United 21 Force and all those other folks. Page 252 Page 254 1 States Coast Guard. As a young man, as you can see, 1 But what did Bennie do on these ships? 2 he was a strapping young man. And he began, as a 2 Well, he was a machinist's mate. And you will hear 3 lot of young folks do, working as a fireman's helper 3 that he started at the bottom and he rose all the 4 in the United States Coast Guard. 4 way to what is called E9. So he rose as far as he 5 It's important while you review this 5 could in the enlisted ranks. And you will also hear 6 evidence that you understand that Mr. Blackmon was 6 evidence that that's not easy to do. 7 in the United States Coast Guard. Some folks -- if 7 You will hear that he was very good at 8 you have had anybody that serves in the military, 8 his job and that his job day-to-day almost every 9 you will know that there is different services. 9 single day that he was in the United States Coast 10 There is the Army, the Air Force, the Navy, the 10 Guard was to keep these ships running. 11 Marines. And a lot of folks forget, but there is 11 And you will hear about what a 12 the Coast Guard, too. 12 machinery space is. Basically, it's a space on a 13 And the Coast Guard's mission is 13 boat that drives the whole boat. And Captain Lowell 14 different. The Army goes out and fights wars on the 14 will explain a little of that to you. 15 ground, basically. The Air Force bombs folks. The 15 But, basically, in order for a boat to 16 Marines support the Navy because they are basically 16 go, it has to have steam that drives the big 17 the Army of the Navy. The Navy goes out in large 17 propellers at the end of it. And that steam driving 18 ships and searches and destroys the enemy. And 18 the propellers -- it has a bunch of equipment in it 19 there are platforms for sending out the Marines. 19 and a bunch of valves and pumps and other things in 20 The United States Coast Guard is 20 the whole system that runs the ship, that allows it 21 different. The United States Coast Guard, as you 21 to go through the ocean. Court Reporting in Baltimore/Washington Evans Reporting Service 800-256-8410 11 (Pages 251 to 254) Over 20 years of award-winning service Official Trial Transcript 11/18/08 Page 255 Page 257 1 The other thing is that you have pumps 1 chili or something and you are cutting the onions 2 that take water because if you have to think about 2 and you can smell the onions if you don't know how 3 it, a boat has to be able to exist for days on its 3 to do it right, if you are like me. And when you 4 own. It was kind of like an RV, I guess. You have 4 are cutting it, you can smell it, you can taste it, 5 to be able to pump freshwater in and sewage out and 5 your eyes start to water. 6 things like that. So you are going to hear about 6 Well, with asbestos, when it's in the 7 the different pumps and things on a ship. 7 air, you don't have any of those properties. It's 8 But the bottom line is in regards to 8 just in the air, and your body is breathing it. You 9 Mr. Blackmon, his job every day as a machinist's 9 don't cough, you don't do anything. It's invisible. 10 mate was to work on pumps and valves in his 10 Now, you will see discussions about 11 machinery space. And so he is the one who is trying 11 visible dust, and that's how you know that if you 12 to keep -- make sure that the boat goes forward. 12 have visible dust, that you are being exposed to 13 And you are going to hear all about 13 massive amounts of asbestos. But you are going to 14 these products and where they were and how often he 14 hear that these particles are very small, that they 15 would have been exposed to them. 15 are invisible, that they are odorless and that they 16 And so the real reason that we are here 16 are tasteless. 17 is that Mr. Blackmon worked on all these products. 17 And what you also see and what I have 18 He worked on these Goulds pumps, the 12 out of the 18 up there is that some of these fibers are so small 19 40 in his engine space. He worked on Crane valves. 19 that it takes sophisticated microscopes in order to 20 And you will hear that the majority of the valves he 20 really see what you have there. And that it's 21 worked on are Crane valves. And you will hear that 21 important to know that when individuals are working Page 256 Page 258 1 because of that exposure to asbestos from these 1 with asbestos products and it liberates dust into 2 products, that he died. 2 the air, that dust is dangerous and that the worker 3 Now, the thing about asbestos that you 3 has no idea that they are being exposed because 4 need to understand is that asbestos is a natural 4 their body is not telling them that. 5 mineral. It comes out of the ground. It was 5 You will also hear that there are 6 discovered, I guess, many centuries ago. It also 6 billions of fibers in just one little thimble, that 7 was discovered that folks get sick if they mine it 7 in these products, particularly when you have 8 and mill it. 8 gaskets and packing that are used on these Goulds 9 But the reason that asbestos is 9 pumps and these Crane valves, that 85 to 95 percent 10 something that's used is that it has a high 10 of asbestos in those gaskets, that just a little 11 strength. Asbestos fibers are almost like steel. 11 thimble when you start liberating that contains 12 And because of that, they have a high tolerance to 12 billions of fibers. 13 heat and to flames. And so it has been used in 13 And so when you are looking at the 14 various products over the years because of that. 14 evidence in this case, remember that there are 15 And what you will hear is because it 15 billions of fibers out there and that Mr. Blackmon 16 has that strong steel strength, that that particular 16 while he is working on these things is breathing all 17 property makes it very dangerous to the human body. 17 of those in. 18 The other thing that you are going to 18 You will hear that there is no safe 19 hear about asbestos is that it doesn't have what we 19 level of exposure to asbestos, that asbestos is one 20 call onion properties. And what that means is when 20 of the most dangerous naturally occurring substances 21 you are at home and you are going to cook up some 21 known to man. Court Reporting in Baltimore/Washington Evans Reporting Service 800-256-8410 12 (Pages 255 to 258) Over 20 years of award-winning service Official Trial Transcript 11/18/08 Page 259 Page 261 1 You will hear that when OSHA came into 1 chemotherapy, it's only going to extend your life 2 being shortly around the time when Mr. Blackmon left 2 for a couple months. 3 the service of the United States Coast Guard, that 3 Now, how does an individual get exposed 4 the very first thing that OSHA regulated was 4 to asbestos and how does asbestos cause this disease 5 asbestos, the very first thing, because that's how 5 mesothelioma? Well, you are going to hear that the 6 dangerous it was. 6 scientific evidence is that asbestos is what we call 7 You also will hear about this disease 7 a dose-response disease. It's one of those diseases 8 called mesothelioma. We haven't discussed it much, 8 that you can't pinpoint exactly what fibers caused 9 but we are going to talk about it right now. 9 the disease because what it is is as an individual 10 Mesothelioma is a cancer caused only by exposure to 10 is exposed to asbestos over their working life, each 11 asbestos. That's it. 11 of those fibers add up. And as they add up, at some 12 So in regards to mesothelioma, if an 12 point, an individual may get a disease. 13 individual is diagnosed with mesothelioma, the very 13 Now, I will tell you that not everyone 14 first thing a doctor will say to them is were you 14 that is exposed to asbestos gets mesothelioma. 15 exposed to asbestos. It's called a signature 15 Mesothelioma is a very rare disease. So there is a 16 disease. Remember I talked about asbestosis named 16 lot of folks that have been exposed to asbestos over 17 after asbestos? Well, mesothelioma is a disease 17 the years, but they don't have mesothelioma. 18 only caused by exposure to asbestos. 18 And science doesn't know exactly why 19 And in this case, there is going to be 19 some folks get mesothelioma and some folks don't. 20 no doubt that everyone agrees that Mr. Blackmon 20 But what the scientists do know is that each time 21 suffered from mesothelioma. 21 you work with a product that contains asbestos, that Page 260 Page 262 1 The other thing you are going to hear 1 that exposure -- that asbestos you are breathing 2 about mesothelioma is that once you get 2 into your body adds up. And as it all adds up, it 3 mesothelioma, it's unlike any other cancer in the 3 adds up and adds up, at some point 30 to 40 years 4 world. There is no cure. There are cures for a lot 4 later, that asbestos causes this disease. 5 of cancers. 5 And you are going to hear from some 6 The other thing you are going to hear 6 preeminent scientists that are going to explain that 7 about mesothelioma is that once you have that 7 to you. And they are going to do a better job than 8 diagnosis, that you are looking at maybe a year, 8 I have. 9 maybe 18 months, but, normally, six months to a 9 But what you need to know is each and 10 year, and you will die. There is no cure. You can 10 every exposure is causally related to mesothelioma. 11 go through chemotherapy and you can extend your life 11 So every time an individual works with an 12 by a few months. That's it. 12 asbestos-containing product, those products if they 13 When you go to your doctor and he is 13 get mesothelioma contributed to that disease. 14 looking at the prognosis, what he will tell you is 14 Now, we haven't talked about the 15 that you are going to die. I can give you 15 mechanism of the body. You are going to hear from 16 chemotherapy, and that chemotherapy is going to make 16 doctors. You are going to hear from Dr. Brody who 17 you wish that you died. That chemotherapy is going 17 is going to explain to you what happens when 18 to take a long time, it's going to hurt, it's going 18 asbestos gets into the body. 19 to change your body, it's going to change how you 19 What you are going to hear is that 20 feel, it's going to change everything about you. 20 asbestos when it's breathed in, it gets trapped in 21 And when you are done with that course of 21 the lungs. And when it gets trapped in the lungs, Court Reporting in Baltimore/Washington Evans Reporting Service 800-256-8410 13 (Pages 259 to 262) Over 20 years of award-winning service Official Trial Transcript 11/18/08 Page 263 Page 265 1 it stays there for an awful long time. Some 1 could try to have your lungs removed. But it's 2 asbestos is cleared very quickly, some of it you 2 pretty hard to live with just one lung. 3 cough up, some of it is just naturally taken out of 3 You will also hear that only certain 4 the body and breathed out. 4 people are even considered to have their lungs taken 5 What you are going to hear is that the 5 out and that, yet again, even if they have their 6 asbestos that's the most dangerous is the stuff you 6 lungs taken out, that the rate of their survival is 7 can't see, and that's the stuff that gets the 7 very low from the operation itself and that it only 8 deepest into your lungs. 8 extends their life yet again for a few months. 9 And what happens when it gets into the 9 So this disease process takes over the 10 lungs and it's trapped down in the lungs? Well, 10 lungs. And what I have shown you there is a lung 11 normally, a healthy human lung is going to look like 11 that has the disease mesothelioma. And, basically, 12 that one on the left. And that's what it looks like 12 as you can see, instead of looking nice and pink, 13 on autopsy. When that asbestos gets into the lungs, 13 it's got all that white in it. And that's all part 14 what it does is it causes this cancer. And the 14 of the cancer. 15 cancer that is caused is basically a growth. 15 So how does that happen? Well, as the 16 And what you are going to hear is that 16 asbestos is breathed into your lungs, it goes down 17 in regards to your lungs, your lungs are amazing 17 into the lungs and it deposits itself. And then 18 things. When you hear this evidence, you are going 18 once it's deposited itself, it then migrates to this 19 to think, wow, lungs are amazing, because what you 19 Saran wrap surface. And then once it's there, it 20 will hear is your lungs are inside your chest 20 sits there and it waits and it waits. And at some 21 cabinet. And inside your chest cabinet, there is a 21 point, the disease process begins. And usually it's Page 264 Page 266 1 very thin Saran wrap covering of your entire lungs, 1 30 or 40 years later. It's what we call latency. 2 and it's very thin. And it, literally, looks a 2 With asbestos, you will hear that all 3 little bit like Saran wrap. 3 of these diseases have this latency period. You 4 But the reason you have that is because 4 don't immediately if you are exposed to asbestos get 5 your lungs have to go in and out. As we are all 5 these diseases. It takes years and years and years. 6 sitting here, our lungs are going in and out. And 6 And so once you are exposed, then you have that time 7 if you didn't have that Saran wrap around it to keep 7 bomb sitting in your lungs. 8 it from your chest cavity, then your lungs would, 8 So at the top of this, this is a lung 9 literally, rip apart. 9 at the beginning -- the very top -- of this process. 10 And so what you have in your lungs is 10 This is a cross-section of the lung. And as you go 11 you have this Saran wrap. And that's the 11 down, you will see the white area. That's the 12 mesothelial lining. That mesothelial lining is 12 tumor. 13 where the cancer starts with mesothelioma. And 13 And what the tumor is doing is it's 14 that's why it's called mesothelioma. 14 growing. It's getting bigger. And as it gets 15 So in that lining that's around your 15 bigger, it starts to collapse the lungs. And you 16 lungs, what happens is the cancer starts. And as it 16 will hear that as that happens, it's painful. You 17 starts in your lungs, it starts getting bigger and 17 will hear that really the only thing that doctors 18 bigger and bigger, and eventually it suffocates the 18 can do is to provide pain medicine and that the 19 lungs and you can't breathe anymore. 19 tumor will continue to grow. 20 Now, the only thing that you can try to 20 And if you look at the very bottom, 21 do is chemotherapy, like we talked about, or you 21 that white area you see at the very bottom is that 14 (Pages 263 to 266) Court Reporting in Baltimore/Washington Evans Reporting Service 800-256-8410 Over 20 years of award-winning service Official Trial Transcript 11/18/08 Page 267 Page 269 1 tumor almost at the very end. And you see how big 1 hear about things that we would never wish on 2 that lung is? It's just that little bit of black. 2 anyone. 3 And so that's what this disease does, it crushes 3 But what is your job? Well, what your 4 your lungs. And once your lungs are crushed, you 4 job is is to basically fix what can be fixed, help 5 die. 5 what can be helped and make up for the harms and the 6 Now, you will hear that the products 6 losses. 7 that Mr. Blackmon worked with were manufactured by 7 And what do I mean by that? Well, fix 8 Goulds Pumps and Crane Co. valves and that they all 8 what can be fixed. That's the easy one. 9 contained asbestos -- I don't think there is going 9 You are going to hear that there have 10 to be any dispute about that -- and that he worked 10 been medical expenses in this case. And we will be 11 with those particular products. 11 asking you to take care of those expenses. And what 12 You are also going to hear that in 12 I mean take care of, I am not asking you to give the 13 regards to Mr. Blackmon's case, these folks have not 13 family any more than what was already paid. And 14 accepted responsibility. 14 since it's already been paid, the family is not 15 MR. RADCLIFFE: I object to that. 15 really gaining anything from that. So that's fixing 16 That's argument, Your Honor. 16 what can be fixed. It's medical costs. 17 THE COURT: It's argument. Just 17 And you are going to hear that they are 18 continue. 18 a little bit over a hundred thousand dollars, which 19 MR. FROST: You will also have to 19 isn't a large number because there is really nothing 20 decide -- and that's one of the reasons we are 20 that the medical community can do for mesothelioma. 21 here -- how much money will make up for that. And 21 The doctors did everything they could, but there is Page 268 Page 270 1 this is the part that's probably the most 1 really nothing they can do other than give him pain 2 uncomfortable for everyone because there is no way 2 medicine. 3 we can bring Mr. Blackmon back. We all know that. 3 Helping what can be helped, that's 4 But in our society, the only thing we can do since 4 dealing with Mrs. Blackmon and how you can help her 5 we can't bring him back is to seek monetary damages. 5 move forward such as dealing with these issues that 6 And it's important that you evaluate 6 she has with the loss of her husband. 7 this case with that mind-set knowing that when you 7 And, also, make up for what can't be 8 are evaluating damages, that you are dealing with 8 fixed or helped. And what I mean about that is 9 that slight tipping of the scale and that we are 9 making up for -- is looking at the harms and the 10 dealing with a disease that is not only devastating 10 losses that have occurred in this case and for 11 to Mr. Blackmon and caused his death but 11 dealing with those issues about what did 12 fundamentally changed the relationship between 12 Mr. Blackmon go through, how painful it was, what it 13 Mr. and Mrs. Blackmon, that is fundamentally changed 13 was like and how it fundamentally changed his family 14 that relationship from a husband who is a loving 14 and, again, holding those folks responsible who 15 husband who is providing for his wife to a wife who 15 caused this. 16 is now the caretaker for her husband. 16 So when you are looking at how to award 17 And you will hear evidence about his 17 damages, you should look at it in this way, fixing 18 relationship with his son. You will hear what 18 what can be fixed, helping what can be helped and 19 happened over those time periods. And you will hear 19 making up for those things that we can't fix or 20 some evidence that's not going to be fun. You are 20 help. 21 going to hear about extreme pain. You are going to 21 And when you are dealing with all that, Court Reporting in Baltimore/Washington Evans Reporting Service 800-256-8410 15 (Pages 267 to 270) Over 20 years of award-winning service Official Trial Transcript 11/18/08 Page 271 Page 273 1 there is still that slight tipping of the scales. 1 your sympathy to play into that. What we want you 2 So when you are back in your closed-room 2 to do is to compensate the Blackmon family for these 3 deliberations and folks are saying, you know, I'm 3 harms and these losses and to not consider anything 4 not sure, I'm not a hundred percent sure or not 90 4 from the outside but to compensate them for the 5 percent sure or 75 percent sure, just remind them, 5 harms that have been done to them. 6 it's just got to be that slight tipping of the 6 And I think you will find at the end of 7 scales. And that's on all issues in this case. 7 this case that those non-money losses are the hugest 8 We talked about the medical costs. You 8 part of this case. 9 are going to hear about the extensive pain medicine 9 The thing that you are going to find 10 and things that Mr. Blackmon had to take. And you 10 about this disease, and particularly Mr. Blackmon's 11 are going to hear about his whole course of what 11 course of disease, is that he had been a strong man. 12 happened to him. And it's going to be some tough 12 He had lived and was a very proud military man. 13 testimony. And there will be points when it's just 13 You will hear that his son, Eddie, 14 going to be difficult. 14 served, just retired from the United States Air 15 But we have to present that to you so 15 Force, spent 22 years on active duty. And you will 16 that you have an understanding of what has been lost 16 hear that Mr. Blackmon's dream was to be there when 17 and what the true harms are. And it's going to be 17 he retired. 18 tough for everyone. 18 And you will hear that since Bennie had 19 And you are going to hear about the 19 spent, I think, 21 years on the United States Coast 20 family. You are going to hear about Colleen and 20 Guard and retired, that it was important for him to 21 Eddie and their grandchildren. They are here. They 21 see his son not only succeed, not only go into the Page 272 Page 274 1 will be here for the trial. This is an important 1 Air Force, not only be there, but to see him do what 2 day for them. 2 he did which is to serve his country for over 20 3 This lawsuit was filed by Mr. Blackmon. 3 years and then retire with honorable service. 4 And this day is their day to ensure that what he 4 And you will hear that he was not able 5 started is finished. 5 to do that and that his last months where he was 6 You are going to also hear evidence 6 just surviving kept him from being able to see that 7 about what Mr. Blackmon was like before and what he 7 day. 8 was like after. What I would suggest is that as you 8 And those are the types of issues that 9 are reviewing this evidence, make yourself a chart 9 you all need to consider when you are dealing with 10 and look at what he was like before and then compare 10 how do you replace those things. Well, you may not 11 that with what he was like afterwards so that you 11 be able to replace them, but the only thing you can 12 have kind of a way to evaluate how dramatically life 12 do under our rules is to provide money to compensate 13 changed. So before and after I think is a way to 13 for those things. 14 evaluate this evidence. 14 And the other thing you are going to 15 But I think what you are going to find 15 hear about is Mrs. Blackmon, Colleen. You are going 16 is that particularly in this case since Mr. Blackmon 16 to hear her story about how her and Bennie met and 17 was retired and that the medical expenses are very 17 their over 30 years of marriage together. And you 18 low since there was nothing medical science could 18 will hear from her why it was important that she 19 do, that the greatest harm in this case are those 19 follow through with this lawsuit and that we come 20 intangible things. 20 here today and that this is what she can do for him. 21 But what we don't want is we don't want 21 But it's more than that. It's what we Court Reporting in Baltimore/Washington Evans Reporting Service 800-256-8410 16 (Pages 271 to 274) Over 20 years of award-winning service Official Trial Transcript 11/18/08 Page 275 Page 277 1 as a society have to do to make sure that these 1 to blame the right folks and not the wrong folks. 2 types of things don't happen again. 2 You may even hear some folks say that 3 And you are going to hear about their 3 the type of asbestos they had in their products was 4 plans. You are going to hear about what they were 4 safe or that it didn't cause cancer or that 5 going to do with their retirement and the things 5 exposures to our asbestos is different because it's 6 that they actually had done with their retirement. 6 going to be very low levels. 7 And so these are the things that you need to 7 What you will hear is that every 8 evaluate. 8 scientific agency that has dealt with this issue of 9 Now, there is always another side, and 9 different types of asbestos -- because there are 10 I think you are going to hear from the other side in 10 different types of asbestos. But they are all 11 a few minutes about how it's not their fault. I 11 called asbestos for one reason which is they all 12 think you will hear some folks blame the United 12 cause asbestos diseases. 13 States Coast Guard. 13 You will hear from every agency, 14 MR. RADCLIFFE: Object. This is 14 including NIOSH, OSHA, EPA, the World Health 15 argument. 15 Organization, the World Trade Organization. 16 THE COURT: It's sort of argument, but 16 Everyone who has dealt with this issue about 17 you can continue. 17 asbestos has indicated that all types of asbestos 18 MR. FROST: And I also believe you may 18 cause disease and the types that were involved in 19 hear some folks talk about the United States Navy. 19 these particular pumps and valves called chrysotile, 20 Ask yourself when folks are talking about the United 20 that that causes disease. 21 States Navy whether Mr. Blackmon ever served in the 21 And you will also hear that not only is Page 276 Page 278 1 Navy, because he didn't. The Navy built some of 1 it causing disease, but that that type of asbestos 2 these ships, but you are going to hear today this 2 has been banned as deadly throughout the world by 3 afternoon that they were built by the United States 3 all these different countries. 4 Coast Guard and that the United States Coast Guard 4 So when you are dealing with folks 5 is a separate service from them. 5 telling you that this stuff is safe, think about the 6 So this case isn't about the Navy, it's 6 folks who don't have an interest here, the World 7 about Mr. Blackmon and his experience in the Coast 7 Health Organization, OSHA, EPA, all these countries 8 Guard. 8 that have banned it. 9 You may hear some folks blame some 9 And some folks may even blame 10 other companies. Remember when I told you before 10 Mr. Blackmon. I hope not. I think his service was 11 that each and every exposure to asbestos causes this 11 honorable. He did the right thing. He did his job. 12 disease? Well, Mr. Blackmon was exposed to some 12 He did exactly what we asked the United States Coast 13 other companies' products. There is no doubt about 13 Guard men to do. And he was proud of his service. 14 it. And those companies contributed to his disease. 14 So we get back to the original points. 15 What I need you to do is to not just 15 When you make a product, you must make sure it's 16 listen to someone saying, well, this product or that 16 safe. If it's not safe and it hurts someone, then 17 product caused it, but look at the evidence and make 17 you are responsible. And the more dangerous 18 sure that if a product is there and Mr. Blackmon 18 something is, the more careful you have to be with 19 worked on it, then that's fine, then those products 19 it. 20 contributed. But evaluate the evidence, because 20 Now, at the end of this case, we are 21 it's important when you are evaluating this evidence 21 going to be able to come back to you again and talk Court Reporting in Baltimore/Washington Evans Reporting Service 800-256-8410 17 (Pages 275 to 278) Over 20 years of award-winning service Official Trial Transcript 11/18/08 Page 279 Page 281 1 about what the evidence was and evaluate how you 1 fast were you driving? You have got to apply the 2 look at these things, particularly the harms and the 2 law. You determine what the facts are. 3 losses. And I will give you a framework to talk 3 Now, we don't disagree about 4 about how to evaluate those things and how to put 4 everything. There is a lot of stuff that we are 5 numbers on it at the end of the case. 5 going to say we agree is the case, but there are 6 So when you are looking at this 6 some disputes. 7 evidence, make sure you are looking at what were the 7 First, we are here because Mr. Blackmon 8 harms, what were the losses. And, then, at the end 8 had a cancer. That cancer is mesothelioma. There 9 of the case when I come back to you, we will talk 9 is no dispute about that. 10 about how to do the only thing that you can do which 10 Second, mesothelioma can be caused by 11 is to place a money value on those things. 11 exposure to asbestos. There is really no dispute 12 Thank you. 12 about that. The question is what kind of asbestos 13 THE COURT: Thank you. 13 and how much asbestos? That's where the dispute 14 Who would like to begin for the 14 arises. 15 defense? 15 Third, Mr. Blackmon did not have a 16 MR. RADCLIFFE: I would, Your Honor. 16 significant exposure to any Goulds pump product that 17 THE COURT: Please proceed. 17 might have contained asbestos. And I will talk more 18 MR. RADCLIFFE: Good morning. My name 18 about Goulds Pumps' products later on. 19 is Tom Radcliffe. My trial partner is Steve 19 But as you have already heard, Goulds 20 Parrott. And together, we are going to be 20 made pumps. Goulds did not make products that 21 representing Goulds Pumps for this trial. 21 contained asbestos. Sometimes the pump had a gasket Page 280 Page 282 1 This is our opportunity, my opportunity 1 included with it. Sometimes the pump had packing 2 to give you the roadmap, so to speak, to let you 2 included with it. 3 know what it is that I think the evidence is going 3 But when you are talking about a huge 4 to show. What I say is not evidence. What 4 pump that's metal, that's not asbestos. That didn't 5 Mr. Frost said is not evidence. But if we say 5 contain asbestos. It was only a component part that 6 something to you and we don't prove it, then we 6 the customer said here is what we want the pump for, 7 haven't lived up to our opening promise, so to 7 here is what it has to do, and so there is a 8 speak. 8 determination made about what type of gasket it has 9 So here it is, my chance. And I am 9 to be. I will come back to that. 10 going to try to take an hour or less with you. I 10 And second, the evidence is going to 11 know that sounds like a long time, but I will speak 11 show you that Goulds Pumps is not at fault. 12 fast. So I am going to jump right into it. 12 All right. I am trying to figure out 13 We are here because there is a 13 how it is I address these issues with you, what it 14 controversy. We are here because we don't agree on 14 is that I can do to help you understand what I am 15 the facts. And the jury's job is the facts. You 15 trying to convey. And I came up with these three 16 all are the judges of the facts. 16 questions. 17 The judge, Judge Glynn, is going to 17 So the first is what do we know about 18 tell you what the law is. At the end of the case, 18 Mr. Blackmon, about mesothelioma and about asbestos? 19 he will say here is the law. Just like someone 19 The second is was Mr. Blackmon exposed 20 saying to you you can't drive faster than 35 miles 20 to a substantial level of asbestos from a Goulds 21 an hour on this road. The factual question is how 21 pump? And I use the world substantial in there Court Reporting in Baltimore/Washington Evans Reporting Service 800-256-8410 18 (Pages 279 to 282) Over 20 years of award-winning service Official Trial Transcript 11/18/08 Page 283 Page 285 1 because, as I said, at the end of the case, the 1 for a 70-some year old gentleman. He had a few 2 Court is going to instruct you on the law. And I 2 issues. He had some COPD which is an abbreviation 3 believe you are going to hear the Judge say it's 3 for chronic obstructive pulmonary disease. It's 4 required that the exposure be a substantial 4 caused by smoking. He had an appendectomy, rotator 5 contributing factor. That's what is required. It 5 cuff. 6 can't be trivial, it can't be insignificant, it 6 Where does all this evidence come from? 7 can't be passive. The Court is going to tell you 7 It doesn't come from me. It comes from the medical 8 the law of the State of Maryland is it must be a 8 records. So here -- I have kind of shortened this 9 substantial contributing factor. 9 medical record. It's the top part and the bottom 10 So when we talk about the evidence, 10 part. 11 when we hear and question witnesses, ask yourselves 11 But from 2001, he's got -- he actually 12 is that substantial or is that meaningless, trivial? 12 had something in his chest that was removed. They 13 And the third question I would like to 13 said it was benign, unrelated to the meso. COPD, 14 address with you is did Goulds Pumps do anything to 14 long history of cigarette smoking, some other issues 15 be at fault for this case? 15 that he had. But all in all, a fairly healthy 16 All right. So question number one, 16 gentleman. 17 what do we know about Mr. Blackmon, mesothelioma and 17 More medical records. And all these 18 asbestos? 18 medical records will be in evidence for you to 19 Mr. Blackmon was born in 1934. He 19 review. This is from November 10th of 2003. You 20 enlisted in the Coast Guard in 1952. He actually 20 can see he's still got the COPD which is causing him 21 didn't even graduate high school. He did get his 21 some shortness of breath. Page 284 Page 286 1 GED later through the Coast Guard. So he was one of 1 He's got a negative exercise stress 2 those young men who came out of high school early 2 test. That's when they check out your heart. They 3 and went right into the Coast Guard, right into the 3 found that his heart was pretty good. But he did go 4 service. He retired from the service in 1973. As 4 back later for some heart. And you can see he has 5 Mr. Frost said, he had received several promotions 5 some atrial valve sclerosis, but no stenosis. 6 during that time. 6 Stenosis is the bad part where you have to get a 7 He was married to his current wife in 7 stint, where you have to get further treatment. 8 1970. He did have an earlier marriage from which he 8 So anything that I can tell you, that 9 had four children. And in his current marriage, he 9 he was disabled or he wasn't able to do what he 10 adopted his son. His wife had a son by a previous 10 wanted to do at the age of 73, 74? No. I think he 11 marriage. And so Mr. Blackmon adopted that son and 11 was 73 when he passed. He was a typical gentleman 12 made him his own son. 12 for that age. 13 And after he got out of the Coast 13 All right. One more medical record, I 14 Guard, he didn't stop work. He continued to work. 14 guess, October of 2006, malignant mesothelioma. So 15 And, in fact, you will hear from Mr. Blackmon. And 15 he was diagnosed eventually. He had some problems 16 he alleges exposure to asbestos after the Coast 16 beginning in August of 2006, was going back and 17 Guard. He alleges exposure to asbestos in the Coast 17 forth to the doctors. They had some problems 18 Guard, and he alleges exposure to asbestos after the 18 diagnosing him. And they were finally able to reach 19 Coast Guard. 19 a diagnosis in October. 20 All right. So what do we know about 20 All right. So that's a little short 21 Mr. Blackmon's health? He is a fairly healthy man 21 resume on Mr. Blackmon. We will certainly hear a Court Reporting in Baltimore/Washington Evans Reporting Service 800-256-8410 19 (Pages 283 to 286) Over 20 years of award-winning service Official Trial Transcript 11/18/08 Page 287 Page 289 1 little bit more about him as we go on. 1 start to grow uncontrollably and spread and invade, 2 What do we know about mesothelioma? 2 that is cancer. 3 Mesothelioma is a cancer. It arises from a body 3 Cancer is very common. It causes -- of 4 cavity, the lining of a body cavity. You have a 4 all the people who die in the United States each 5 body cavity in which your heart sits, you have a 5 year, 25 percent of those people die from one cancer 6 body cavity in which your lungs sit, and you have a 6 or another. 7 body cavity in which your abdominal organs sit. 7 All right. Mesothelioma, it's a long 8 So we have the pleural cavity for 8 latency period. Mr. Frost mentioned this. What 9 lungs, we have the pericardium, the pericardial 9 that means is from the time that you were first 10 cavity for your heart, and we have the peritoneal 10 exposed until when you are diagnosed, it's a very 11 cavity for your abdomen. 11 long time. It can be 30 or 40 years. 12 Mr. Blackmon had a pleural 12 It usually occurs, mesothelioma, in 13 mesothelioma. It's the same lining around your 13 later decades in life. And it's very common -- if 14 heart, around your lungs, around your abdomen. If 14 it's related to exposure to asbestos, it's very 15 you get a cancer of that tissue, of that organ, it's 15 common to have evidence of exposure to asbestos, 16 called a mesothelioma. 16 other evidence, pleural plaques, asbestosis. 17 Mesothelioma is often fatal. Mr. Scott 17 And they can actually look at your lung 18 said it's always fatal. That's not exactly correct. 18 tissue and see if you have asbestos fibers at an 19 You will hear that there are people who survive for 19 abnormal level in your lung tissue. Mesothelioma 20 a very long time. We don't talk about cure when we 20 can be caused by exposure to asbestos, no doubt 21 talk about cancer. If you talk to anybody who has 21 about that. Page 288 Page 290 1 cancer, they will say I am a five-year survivor, I 1 So what do we need? You have to have 2 am a ten-year survivor. 2 exposure to asbestos, you have to have sufficient 3 Nobody ever talks about cures, but 3 duration and intensity. In other words, the 4 there are people with mesothelioma who have lived 4 exposure has to last long enough and the amount of 5 for five years, ten years, 15 years after diagnosis. 5 asbestos in the air has to be great enough to cause 6 It's very rare. It's very unusual. And 6 mesothelioma. And you have to have proper latency. 7 mesothelioma usually is fatal. 7 Those are the issues that the doctors will have to 8 And what you have to do is confirm it 8 discuss when they come in and take the stand in this 9 pathologically. You can't take an X-ray and say you 9 case. 10 have mesothelioma. You can't take a blood test. 10 Pleural mesothelioma does happen 11 You actually have to have tissue that you can 11 without exposure to asbestos. Mr. Frost said that 12 examine under a microscope. 12 asbestos is the only cause. Not really. There are 13 Let me back up a little bit and talk to 13 other causes of mesothelioma reported in the 14 you about cancer. What is cancer? Cancer is 14 literature. 15 something that we are all familiar with, but just so 15 It's not too important in this case 16 we have our definitions, cancer is a group of 16 because you will hear that this is a mesothelioma 17 diseases characterized by uncontrolled growth and 17 caused by exposure to asbestos. 18 spread of abnormal cells. 18 And Mr. Frost also said that each and 19 So, simply, you have some cells in your 19 every exposure contributes. Again, that's not 20 body from your bones, from your liver, from your 20 really true. You have to have a significant 21 lungs, from your brain, wherever. If those cells 21 exposure to asbestos. Court Reporting in Baltimore/Washington Evans Reporting Service 800-256-8410 20 (Pages 287 to 290) Over 20 years of award-winning service Official Trial Transcript 11/18/08 Page 291 Page 293 1 If we had scientists go out right now 1 some in South Africa, there is some in Russia, there 2 on the street and sample the air, they would find 2 is some in Australia. They have asbestos throughout 3 asbestos. It would be a very small amount, but they 3 the world. 4 would find asbestos. That's the air that everybody 4 Asbestos is a commercial term for about 5 breathes on a daily basis 24 hours a day for however 5 six different varieties of this mineral. There are 6 many years you have been living. That amount of 6 other more scientific terms for the specific species 7 asbestos is meaningless. It does not cause disease. 7 of rock, but we just refer to them as asbestos. 8 And even more asbestos than that does 8 Different types of asbestos have 9 not cause the disease. The problem is we can't 9 different appearance. They look different when you 10 figure out -- we can't run a test and expose people 10 look at them under the microscope. They are 11 to asbestos to find out what is safe and what is not 11 different colors, they have different chemical 12 safe, so we have to deal with the exposures that 12 composition, and they react differently in the body. 13 occurred. 13 All of the fibers, all of the asbestos 14 The exposures that occurred in some 14 fibers are commercially useful because they are 15 places like a power plant where they are very high 15 strong, they are durable, they are fire resistant, 16 or perhaps on a ship where they are very high, we 16 they are heat resistant, and to a greater or lesser 17 know that those exposures can cause or contribute to 17 extent, they are acid resistant. 18 disease. We just don't have the studies at low 18 The commercial types of asbestos that 19 exposures right now to tell us what is safe and what 19 are most important in this country are as follows: 20 is not safe. 20 Chrysotile. And that's white because chrysotile is 21 Mesothelioma, if it's caused by 21 always referred to as the white fiber, and it's also Page 292 Page 294 1 exposure to asbestos, we know a couple of things. 1 called serpentine. You can see that it's kind of 2 First, the asbestos has to become 2 curvy and wavy. 3 airborne. If you don't breathe it, it's not going 3 Amosite is a brown fiber. It is an 4 to cause mesothelioma. 4 amphibole. It is straight. 5 It has to be a sufficient dose. There 5 And crocidolite is called the blue 6 has to be enough asbestos that you breathe. 6 fiber, and it also is straight. 7 Inhaled fibers have to remain in the 7 And these fiber types are very 8 lung. Sometimes when you take a breath in, you 8 important for a reason that I will get back to in 9 exhale some of the dust that you breathe in. And 9 just a moment. 10 asbestos isn't the only dust that everybody breathes 10 But mesothelioma is a disease that 11 in on a daily basis. 11 occurs in about 2500 people to 3,000 people a year 12 And it has to bypass the body's defense 12 in this country. And this is data from the National 13 mechanisms which are very good at clearing asbestos 13 Institute of Health. It is a government entity that 14 from the body. And as I have said before, not all 14 tracks mesothelioma. 15 mesotheliomas are caused by exposure to asbestos. 15 And you can see that the peak -- this 16 But what is asbestos? Asbestos is a 16 is the incidence of mesothelioma in men. 17 mineral. It's actually mined from the ground. It's 17 A moment ago, I told you that not all 18 a naturally-occurring mineral. It occurs in various 18 mesotheliomas are related to exposure to asbestos. 19 areas throughout the country. It's actually the 19 How do I know that? Well, this is some of the data 20 state rock in California. A lot of asbestos 20 that shows it. Because what we have is starting in 21 occurred up in Canada where they mined it. There is 21 World War II is when the country greatly increased Court Reporting in Baltimore/Washington Evans Reporting Service 800-256-8410 21 (Pages 291 to 294) Over 20 years of award-winning service Official Trial Transcript 11/18/08 Page 295 Page 297 1 the amount of asbestos it used on a daily, monthly, 1 people would get mesothelioma even if there wasn't 2 yearly basis. 2 any exposure to asbestos. 3 Because of the war, there was a huge 3 So this is one of the reasons that we 4 increase in shipbuilding, there was a huge increase 4 know that there is -- there are mesotheliomas that 5 in building guns and building tanks. And asbestos 5 occur without exposure to asbestos. There is 6 was actually considered to be a mineral commodity 6 similar data like this. 7 that was -- its use was strictly controlled by the 7 I mentioned a huge increase of use of 8 government. It was a scarce raw material because we 8 asbestos. This graph right here is the consumption 9 had to get it from other countries. And the 9 of asbestos over time. And you can see in 1916, 10 government during the war controlled who got to use 10 '26, '36, '46 and so on. 11 it. 11 So right about in here is where World 12 So this huge increase in asbestos 12 War II started. And just an enormous increase in 13 resulted in disease many, many years later. 13 the amount of asbestos that was used in industry, 14 Remember we talked a little bit about latency? 14 shipbuilding and other industries. It maintained a 15 Thirty or 40 or 50 years later, people get 15 high peak until about 1976 and then a rapid decline 16 mesothelioma. 16 mostly due to government regulations, although there 17 The huge shipbuilding and other 17 is still some asbestos being used in this country 18 construction for World War II started about 1940. 18 today. There are still products made with asbestos. 19 And you can see that the increase in mesothelioma 19 And the interesting thing about that is 20 went up until about 1994, '95. So about 55 years 20 if you look at the incidence of mesothelioma, it 21 after the increase in the use of asbestos from World 21 kind of mirrors this. If you move up just about 40 Page 296 Page 298 1 War II, we have the peak of the incidence of 1 years later, because of latency, it mirrors this. 2 mesothelioma in this country. And since that time, 2 And it's expected to decline. This is 2006 right 3 the incidence of mesothelioma has started to 3 here. 4 gradually decline. 4 So all this is predicted. This is not 5 In other words, we have seen because of 5 something that's been measured. It's just what the 6 the shipbuilding, because of the other construction 6 authors of this particular article are predicting. 7 from the war, a lot of people, unfortunately, got 7 But the huge incidence of mesothelioma, at least 8 ill and got sick and got cancer. But the good news 8 according to these authors and a lot of others, was 9 of that is that that number of people has started to 9 caused by overexposures to products, thermal 10 decline on a yearly basis. 10 insulation products that contained asbestos that 11 This red line here is men. This blue 11 could easily liberate fibers. 12 line is women. Women get mesothelioma. Now, there 12 All right. I know I am going quickly, 13 certainly were women who worked in the war effort in 13 and I apologize, but I don't want to take too long. 14 World War II. But you can see that this is a very 14 And you are going to hear a lot of this throughout 15 stable line. It's about 500 cases a year. About 15 the trial. 16 500 women every year get mesothelioma. 16 So just to sum up what we know about 17 And one of the things that the experts 17 Mr. Blackmon, about mesothelioma and about asbestos, 18 will tell you, the doctors will tell you is that 18 first, Mr. Blackmon was diagnosed with mesothelioma. 19 because that level hasn't changed, that is largely 19 No dispute about that. 20 considered to be what we call a background level of 20 And, second, it probably was caused by 21 mesothelioma. In other words, that's how many 21 exposure to asbestos. No one is going to stand up Court Reporting in Baltimore/Washington Evans Reporting Service 800-256-8410 22 (Pages 295 to 298) Over 20 years of award-winning service Official Trial Transcript 11/18/08 Page 299 Page 301 1 and say differently. 1 you are listening to the evidence because it's 2 But we also know it takes a substantial 2 pretty interesting what we have here. 3 amount of exposure, not something in passing, not 3 One of the things that plaintiffs have 4 trivial. You have got to have a real dose in order 4 to prove is exposure. They have to prove that 5 to have asbestos cause mesothelioma. 5 Mr. Blackmon was exposed to asbestos from a Goulds 6 And, fourth, not all exposures 6 pump. It sounds pretty basic, right? 7 contribute. 7 This is also -- a couple legal issues. 8 All right. I want to get to the second 8 This is also what we call a failure to warn case. 9 question that I told you I wanted to address with 9 Plaintiff's claim is that Mr. Blackmon got this 10 you, and that is what about exposure to Goulds 10 disease, one, because he was exposed and, two, 11 Pumps? And Mr. Frost talked about this a little 11 because nobody warned him about the exposure. 12 bit. 12 They claim that had Mr. Blackmon been 13 My client, Goulds Pumps, again, big, 13 warned, this disease never would have happened. All 14 huge piece of metal that pumped a liquid. It could 14 right? 15 have been water. In this case, it was water or 15 So this is plaintiffs burden. This is 16 sewage or freshwater for drinking, or sanitary, but 16 what they are trying to prove to you in this case. 17 it wasn't the steam that you heard about. 17 What do we know? There are four ships 18 So what do we know about the alleged 18 at issue here. I only have -- there is five ships 19 exposure to asbestos from a Goulds pump? 19 at issue. I only have pictures of four of them. 20 First of all, I want to talk to you 20 The Androscoggin, the Winnebago and the Mendota are 21 about something called the burden of proof. And 21 all what we call sister ships. They are the Owasco Page 300 Page 302 1 it's important on all of the issues. And Mr. Frost 1 class of ships. The Ingham -- these ships are all 2 mentioned it to you a little bit. Remember he told 2 about 227 feet long. 3 you the scales and he had to tilt the scales a 3 You can see the Mendota, that's got the 4 little bit? That's what we call the burden of 4 typical Coast Guard colors that you think. These 5 proof. 5 pictures of the Winnebago and the Androscoggin are 6 And it's plaintiffs obligation -- 6 actually taken during Vietnam where they painted the 7 plaintiffs have to prove -- plaintiffs come to this 7 ships for warfare. They don't want to advertise 8 court. They want damages. They claim that my 8 here is the ship, take a shot at us if you want to. 9 client is responsible. 9 This is what the ships looked like for rescue, this 10 Well, we don't just assume that that's 10 is what the ships looked like for warfare. 11 true. We say if you think that's true, you need to 11 This is the Ingham. This was also 12 prove it. It's your burden. And if you don't prove 12 involved in Vietnam. And this is the Ingham as 13 it, your claim fails. We don't give them the 13 well. So you can see the difference, the Ingham 14 benefit of the doubt. We don't tell them that we 14 during war and the Ingham when it's just patrolling 15 are going to lower the burden for them just on this 15 the coast. These are all ships on which 16 one issue. Plaintiffs have the burden of proof. 16 Mr. Blackmon served. 17 And this is no surprise. Mr. Frost 17 There is another ship called the 18 will tell you he knows this. It's a burden he takes 18 Violet. It's a buoy tender, which it's kind of old, 19 on. He does these cases. But plaintiffs have the 19 so there is not really a lot of pictures available 20 burden of proof. 20 of that one. 21 And I want you to think about that when 21 But when we talk about exposures in the Court Reporting in Baltimore/Washington Evans Reporting Service 800-256-8410 23 (Pages 299 to 302) Over 20 years of award-winning service Official Trial Transcript 11/18/08 Page 303 Page 305 1 Coast Guard, these are the ships we are talking 1 the ships. 2 about. 2 But there is more than just one type of 3 All right. So Mr. Blackmon was 3 pump. There are numerous pumps. There are pumps 4 questioned. What his lawyers did was because he was 4 that are involved in the hot side of things, the 5 ill and because his doctors were saying that he 5 steam, because there is boilers on the ships and the 6 might not make it to trial, plaintiff's lawyer said 6 boilers produce steam and the steam turns the 7 we are going to ask you questions on a videotape. 7 turbines and the turbines then can produce power, 8 If this case goes to court, we want the jury to be 8 and there is pumps that circulate the water. 9 able to see you. We are going to ask you questions, 9 And then there is ambient or the cold 10 and we want you to answer those questions. We are 10 side of things that might be for cold water that you 11 going to put it on videotape. And plaintiffs are 11 drink or it might be for sanitary supplies or it 12 going to play it up there on the screen. 12 might be for fire. And the pumps that operate in 13 So this is something that plaintiff's 13 those different systems are different types of 14 lawyers did. They asked him numerous questions 14 pumps. 15 about exposure to numerous products. 15 And what you are going to hear is that 16 And let me go back to burden of proof. 16 the Goulds pumps on the ships are the ambient, the 17 Remember the burden of proof? Plaintiffs have the 17 cold water. You are going to hear that they don't 18 burden of proof. 18 require as much maintenance. 19 They asked him about the pumps. No 19 You are going to hear from Mr. Blackmon 20 doubt about it. 20 himself. What does he say? I will tell you -- and, 21 Did you work on pumps? 21 again, at the deposition, plaintiff's counsel who Page 304 Page 306 1 Yes, I did. 1 knew they had the burden of proof never said at that 2 What did you do on the Owasco class 2 video deposition did you work on Goulds Pumps? They 3 cutters? Remember, that was the Androscoggin, the 3 never asked that question. 4 Mendota and the Winnebago. 4 And here is the reason why. They asked 5 And they asked him who made the pumps? 5 him, well, what about the gaskets on the cold pumps? 6 Who made the pumps on which you worked? Not who 6 And he said, the pumps that might be a 7 made the pumps on the ship, who made the pumps on 7 cold water or a freshwater, sometimes on these type 8 which you worked? 8 pumps, you might put a compound on them -- he is 9 Most of the ones that kick up is the 9 talking about the gaskets -- to keep them from 10 Westinghouse, I believe, and the -- I am trying to 10 sticking to the flange. And being they're cold 11 think. The name of the auxiliary feed pump was -- I 11 service of something, sometimes the gasket would 12 would have to look at that list to tell you. 12 just come off real easy. 13 Now, there is not going to be any 13 So the evidence from -- I think 14 dispute that Goulds Pumps were on these ships. In 14 undisputed evidence from both sides is that on a 15 fact, somebody that we retained, someone named 15 cold water pump, there is less maintenance. It 16 Mr. McCaffery who served in the Navy and is an 16 might be once a year, it might be less frequent than 17 expert on ships, we actually hired him to go to the 17 that. You can put something on the gasket that 18 National Archives to find documents. 18 doesn't cause it to stick, and it's probably just 19 We said, can you tell us if Goulds 19 going to fall off. 20 pumps were on these ships? And he came back and he 20 So if you think about was there 21 said, yes, they are. There are some Goulds Pumps on 21 exposure, one, have plaintiffs carried their burden Court Reporting in Baltimore/Washington Evans Reporting Service 800-256-8410 24 (Pages 303 to 306) Over 20 years of award-winning service Official Trial Transcript 11/18/08 Page 307 Page 309 1 of proof by actually going out and proving more than 1 what was known, what was knowable at that time and 2 there were Goulds Pumps on the ship? Because that's 2 try to figure out -- I didn't say we are going to do 3 actually evidence that we gave to them. We told 3 it. We will present the evidence. But one of your 4 them that there were Goulds Pumps on the ship. 4 functions is what was known in the '50s, what was 5 So have they proved exposure to 5 known in the '60s? 6 asbestos from a Goulds pump? And if they did, which 6 We can't use what we know in 2008. We 7 I submit they haven't, does it get anywhere near 7 can't use what we learned five years ago or ten 8 substantial or meaningful exposure? And it doesn't. 8 years ago. We have to actually look at what they 9 Mr. Blackmon is the only witness to 9 knew 30 years ago or 40 years ago. And that's what 10 tell us what he did with pumps. He is the only 10 we as lawyers call state of the art. 11 witness to tell us what he did. 11 So we are going to look back in time, 12 We supplied the information to 12 which I am going to go through with you. And, 13 plaintiffs to tell them that we were on board the 13 again, this burden of proof thing, I know I keep 14 Owasco class ships. That information shows all cold 14 raising it, but just because someone says that a 15 service pumps. None of this evidence is going to be 15 pump is hazardous or a gasket is hazardous doesn't 16 disputed. And there is less maintenance and little 16 make it true. There has to be some evidence behind 17 chance of exposure on those pumps. 17 that. There has to be some information, some data 18 So when it comes down to have 18 behind what they said. 19 plaintiffs shown exposure to asbestos connected with 19 Now, asbestos can be hazardous. Nobody 20 a Goulds pump? No. 20 disputes that. But if you put asbestos in a 21 All right. The last issue that I have 21 product, does it automatically make it hazardous? Page 308 Page 310 1 to address or that I would like to address with you 1 That's what the plaintiffs want you to believe. The 2 is -- and I am actually doing good on time, if 2 evidence is going to show something different. 3 that's any consolation -- is did Goulds do anything? 3 So state of the art. Well, let's go 4 You heard a little bit about what was 4 way back in time. This is a publication called 5 known. Mr. Frost went through it. And he kind of 5 Scientific American. And I can't see it there, but 6 presented that, gee, the companies knew it and they 6 it's actually published in the 1800s. This is a 7 are the only ones who knew it and they should have 7 newspaper. It's only about ten pages. 8 done something. That's not really the way that 8 And it's hard to see, but all this 9 things shake out when you look at all the evidence. 9 stuff right here, they are actually talking about 10 I want to spend a little time on 10 this mineral asbestos and how it's a great 11 something called state of the art. And state of the 11 discovery. 12 art is important to this type of case because we are 12 Back in the 1800s, we knew a lot less, 13 not here to judge with hindsight. 13 but the people then were talking -- and already 14 We are not here to say, gee, in 2008, 14 then, asbestos had been in use for centuries. It 15 everybody knows you are supposed to wear a seat 15 reportedly in the '60s and '70s, it was incorporated 16 belt, so if somebody didn't wear a seat belt in 1950 16 into 3,000 different products. 17 when, by the way, they didn't even have seat belts, 17 They used to put it in tiles, these 18 they were an option on cars, that you were 18 tiles that you see on the wall here, on the ceiling. 19 negligent. That's not what we are going to do. 19 These cornices in the courthouse right there, they 20 We are actually going to take what was 20 used to be made with a plaster material that 21 known in 1950, 1960, 1970, hear from the experts 21 contained asbestos. Asbestos served many useful 25 (Pages 307 to 310) Court Reporting in Baltimore/Washington Evans Reporting Service 800-256-8410 Over 20 years of award-winning service Official Trial Transcript 11/18/08 Page 311 Page 313 1 purposes, so much so that it was advertised as the 1 did after that was to make a curtain. They had 2 magic mineral. It was heat resistant. 2 curtains that went in front of the screen. And that 3 It actually helped -- if you put it in 3 curtain caught on fire and really caused the fire to 4 joint compound, it retained water, so it helped the 4 spread. So they started making the curtains out of 5 joint compound dry slower which meant that your 5 asbestos so it wouldn't burn. 6 finish didn't crack and that you had a better 6 There were actually -- for cribs, they 7 looking appearance. It helped the trowel smooth 7 made sheets that you would put on the crib because 8 on -- the asbestos slipped off of the trowel. It 8 fire was a very big hazard in the '30s and '40s. 9 really is a mineral that found many, many uses. 9 People had open fires. They didn't have central 10 Despite how many uses it found, we 10 heating. You had a burner or an open fireplace in 11 agree, asbestos can cause disease. It can cause 11 your house to keep you warm, so there were a lot of 12 asbestosis, it can cause mesothelioma. If you smoke 12 fires. 13 and smoke a lot, asbestos can contribute to a lung 13 You didn't want your child to burn, so 14 cancer. It can also cause something called pleural 14 you could get an asbestos sheet to put on the crib 15 plaques. None of that is in dispute. The question 15 so if there was a fire, that sheet could protect 16 is going to come down to how much asbestos is 16 your child. 17 required. 17 So, again, if you go back in time, 18 So what do we know about asbestos and 18 there is a different mindset about asbestos. It's 19 disease? Well, where it was first recognized is 19 not considered the same as it is today. 20 where they were mining it. They would take asbestos 20 All right. So how was it first 21 out of the ground. It was a dusty operation. There 21 recognized? This is a picture of a textile factory. Page 312 Page 314 1 would be a lot of dust. 1 And you can see actually that this textile factory, 2 You will hear about fiber/cc years or 2 this is dust collecting equipment because even in 3 millions of particles per cubic foot. Those are 3 the 1930s, they realized that there couldn't be too 4 ways that we measure dust in the air. And the level 4 much dust. 5 of exposure that these miners and millers were 5 This material right here, raw asbestos. 6 exposed to is hundreds, if not thousands, of times 6 It just looks like cotton, there is so much of it. 7 higher than what the level at which people were 7 This is not operating. If you can see it from this 8 exposed in the '60s and '70s. 8 far away, you can see that the evidence is, 9 In the United States, disease was first 9 literally, hanging in threads off these machines. 10 recognized in textile mills. Textile mills is where 10 The descriptions of these textile 11 they took almost 100 percent raw asbestos fiber 11 factories when in operation is that you couldn't see 12 which you can actually weave -- because it's a fiber 12 from one side of the room to the other, the dust was 13 like cotton or silk, you can weave it. You can make 13 so thick. No surprise that people there got 14 it into a thread. You can make it into a yarn and 14 asbestos. 15 you can weave it into a blanket. So these textile 15 Where else did people get reported as 16 mills were making textiles. 16 having an asbestos-related disease? Well, this is a 17 If you are a student of history, there 17 factory. This is where they make thermal insulation 18 was a big fire in a theater in Chicago in the 1920s 18 or pipe covering. You can see it's a cylinder. And 19 and 1930s. It killed a lot of people because the 19 if you look way over here, you see that the 20 owners of the theater had barred the exits. 20 cylinders are cut in half, so they are half moons. 21 And one of the things that companies 21 And you put them on either side of the pipe and then Court Reporting in Baltimore/Washington Evans Reporting Service 800-256-8410 26 (Pages 311 to 314) Over 20 years of award-winning service Official Trial Transcript 11/18/08 Page 315 Page 317 1 you tie them on. That insulated the pipe. That 1 exposed for 40 hours a week, 50 weeks a year for a 2 kept the steam in the pipe rather than having the 2 working lifetime. It's permitted under U.S. law, 3 steam come out of the pipe and you lost efficiency. 3 under OSHA. 4 And, also, where did the people get 4 So let's take a look at what the 5 disease? Well, people called insulators that we 5 medical and scientific literature actually said. 6 will hear about -- this is another type of thermal 6 Okay. The evidence from way back when supported a 7 insulation. This is called block. 7 threshold. And what does a threshold mean? That's 8 This is -- none of the pictures I am 8 a level of exposure, if you stay below it, you are 9 showing you have anything to do with the ships on 9 going to be okay. If you go above it, you are going 10 which Mr. Blackmon served. These picture are to 10 to be at a risk of getting a disease. 11 illustrate the types of exposures where people could 11 The data suggested that workers exposed 12 get ill. 12 to low doses were not at increased risk. Again, 13 This is actually a BG&E power station 13 along with the threshold is you are worried about 14 here in Baltimore. And this is a turbine that's 14 the people who are exposed above it or maybe even 15 being built. And this is called the crossover from 15 close to it. 16 the high-pressure turbine to the low-pressure 16 People who are exposed way down here, 17 turbine. And this is all thermal insulation. And 17 nobody ever thought that they were going to get 18 you can see the guys, they are just up there 18 disease. And the focus was on reducing exposures to 19 crawling around on it. The asbestos got all over 19 eliminate disease. 20 their clothes. 20 One of the things that you will hear 21 So, again, any surprise that people who 21 about is that during the entire time that Page 316 Page 318 1 worked under these circumstances got ill? Not 1 Mr. Blackmon served in the Coast Guard, nobody said 2 really. 2 let's get rid of asbestos. Nobody said that. 3 So from the 1930s, there was disease in 3 The people who were trying to prevent 4 textile workers. Scientists and doctors have 4 asbestos-related disease said let's make sure that 5 searched for a safe level of exposure. Just like 5 we are not exposing these men at a level that's not 6 anything else, we want to know what is safe. 6 safe. We don't need to stop using it, let's just 7 Radiation. We all go to the dentist's 7 make sure that the way we use it is safe. 8 office. I hope we all go to the dentist's office. 8 All right. And one of the concepts 9 You get your teeth X-rayed. Well, hold on a second. 9 that you will hear about and see is that the people 10 Radiation can kill you. But the radiation you get 10 who were thought to be at risk -- actually, we knew 11 for your teeth or if you broke your arm and they had 11 they were at risk from the '60s on -- were the 12 to X-ray your arm, that radiation is thought to be a 12 guys -- the insulators, the guys who were working 13 safe level. Even though it's acknowledged that 13 with thermal insulation. 14 radiation can kill you, we are looking for a safe 14 We knew about the textile factory 15 level. 15 workers, we knew about the miners and millers. That 16 Most authors stated that asbestos was 16 doesn't really translate -- didn't translate until 17 very useful material. And even today, asbestos is 17 the insulators. But starting in the 1960s, it was 18 not outlawed. If you heard, as I did, that asbestos 18 well recognized that the insulators were thought to 19 is outlawed in this country, that's not correct. 19 be at risk. 20 Asbestos is not outlawed in this country. There is 20 And if we can protect the insulators, 21 a level of asbestos to which you are permitted to be 21 if we reduce their exposures to where they are not 27 (Pages 315 to 318) Court Reporting in Baltimore/Washington Evans Reporting Service 800-256-8410 Over 20 years of award-winning service Official Trial Transcript 11/18/08 Page 319 Page 321 1 getting disease, then somebody who is ten feet away 1 workers. You remember the picture I showed you 2 who might be exposed -- because you can be exposed 2 where the asbestos was, literally, dripping off the 3 at a much lower level -- isn't going to get disease 3 machines? 4 either. 4 And he studied the workers in those 5 So these are some of the concepts that 5 plants. And he said, well, we looked at these 6 you will see were discussed up through today, 6 workers, and we think if you can keep exposures 7 actually, but certainly up through the time that 7 below 5 million particles per cubic foot, below 5 8 Mr. Blackmon worked for the Coast Guard. 8 million particles per cubic foot -- remember the 9 Now, since he worked for the Coast 9 threshold I told you about, the level above it is 10 Guard, we are going to spend a little bit of time 10 hazardous, below it is dangerous? They said, we 11 talking about the United States government. And the 11 think if you can keep it below 5 million particles 12 United States government you will see was involved 12 per cubic foot, we don't think disease is going to 13 in studies of workers exposed to asbestos from the 13 occur. That was 1938. 14 earliest date. The United States government knew 14 This is a different article called 15 everything there was to know about exposure to 15 Asbestosis. And they are talking about asbestosis 16 asbestos. 16 because no one really had associated cancer with 17 How I can say that? Well, here is one. 17 exposure to asbestos yet. So the disease that they 18 Difficult to read, but this is a report by someone 18 thought was significant was asbestosis. So they are 19 named Lanza. And it's called Effects of the 19 talking about asbestosis. 20 Inhalation of Asbestos Dust on the Lungs of Asbestos 20 This is an article -- I know you can't 21 Workers. This is a United States government 21 read that -- that is read to the American Public Page 320 Page 322 1 publication. You can't see the date there, but I 1 Health Association. I can't read it from here. 2 will tell you, if my recollection is correct, it's 2 Industrial hygiene section of the American Public 3 1936. 1936, the government publishes about 3 Health Association. So the government is actually 4 asbestos. The government tells people here is what 4 going out and teaching people about asbestosis. 5 we know about asbestos-related disease. 5 And one of the things that they wanted 6 And let me draw your attention to one 6 to do was to find out what concentrations of 7 thing up here, United States Treasury Department 7 asbestos dust can be tolerated without injury. 8 which at the time was in charge of the Public Health 8 Getting back to that threshold. What concentrations 9 Service. 9 can be tolerated without injury? 10 What you are going to hear about is 10 So what did they say? Well, 11 that the Coast Guard is under the control of one of 11 conclusions right there. And one of the things they 12 two government agencies. The first one is at times, 12 discussed is what we have to know is how high were 13 it's under control of the United States Navy. The 13 the exposures of the people that we were studying 14 second one is it's under the control of the United 14 before we could figure out what level is safe? 15 States Treasury Department. 15 And they remark that there were 16 So the government from 1936 on knew 16 exposures from .1 fibers per cc -- which, 17 about the hazards of exposure to asbestos. 17 coincidentally, this is not .1 fibers per cc, this 18 It doesn't stop there. This is an 18 is .1 million particles per cubic foot. I will come 19 article by someone named Sayers and Dreessen. This 19 back to that. Exposures from .1 million particles 20 is an article from 1939. In 1938, a different 20 per cubic foot. So if you take a cubic foot, .1 21 article, Dr. Dreessen had studied the textile 21 million is 100,000 particles of asbestos in a cubic Court Reporting in Baltimore/Washington Evans Reporting Service 800-256-8410 28 (Pages 319 to 322) Over 20 years of award-winning service Official Trial Transcript 11/18/08 Page 323 Page 325 1 foot. That was the low end. And the high end was 1 measure asbestos as well. We changed from a million 2 76 million. So the same cubic foot. And into it 2 particles per cubic foot to fibers per cc. 3 you have 76 million particles. That was the range 3 And so the OSHA law in '72 was five 4 in these textile facilities, from not very dusty to 4 fibers per cc. In '76, it was reduced further to 5 very dusty. So that was one of the conclusions. 5 two fibers per cc. In '86, it was .2 fibers. And 6 And what did they say? It appears that 6 '94, it's .1. 7 if asbestos dust concentrations in the air breathed 7 And that's what I had started to tell 8 are kept below 5 million particles per cubic foot, 8 you earlier. That's the level today. Since 1994, 9 new cases of asbestosis will not appear. 9 the level for exposure to asbestos in the workplace 10 So the United States government at the 10 has been .1 fibers per cc. 11 industrial hygiene section of the American Public 11 A cc -- if you have seen a sugar cube, 12 Health Association meeting in public in 1939, the 12 that's about the size of a cc. So .1 fibers is 13 American government says asbestosis will not appear 13 one-tenth. You are not going to have one-tenth of a 14 if you keep the level below 5 million particles. 14 fiber. But if you have ten sugar cubes stacked -- 15 All right. So is that the end of the 15 the government says you are allowed to have one 16 story? No, it's not. Because, remember, we are 16 fiber of asbestos in an area that's equal to ten 17 going back in time. We started in the 1930s. 17 sugar cubes stacked together. 18 In 1946, I believe, a voluntary 18 All right. So dose is what we have 19 organization actually promoted something called a 19 talked about. Dose is the length of time that you 20 TLV or a threshold limit value where they said 5 20 have been exposed times the concentration. That 21 million particles was the level, the threshold for 21 gives you the information you need to talk about Page 324 Page 326 1 asbestosis. The United States government adopted 1 thresholds. These are the legal thresholds that 2 that level in law in 1960. 2 have been in place since 1960. 3 So the government actually is applying 3 Mr. Blackmon, of course, alleges that 4 that level to people who have government contracts. 4 he began to be exposed when he joined the Coast 5 So if you want to do business with the government, 5 Guard in the 1950s. So we are going to keep 6 if you want to sell something to the government, if 6 progressing with our knowledge up through time. 7 you want to do a construction project for the 7 But let me talk to you just about dose 8 government, the government says you have to have 8 for just one minute. 9 safe business and you have to stick to the 5 million 9 THE COURT: Pardon me, Mr. Radcliffe. 10 particle per cubic foot standard. So the government 10 Do you think it would be a good time to take a 11 is actually insisting that its contractors stick to 11 break? Because the jury has been out here for a 12 that. 12 long time. 13 Well, that's not the end of the story 13 MR. RADCLIFFE: Certainly. 14 because as we learned more, as science and medicine 14 THE COURT: I apologize. I promised we 15 learned more, we found that that wasn't necessarily 15 would give you a break in the morning. So I will 16 a protective level. 16 give you a brief recess. Reserve all judgments. 17 So starting in 1972, OSHA -- OSHA was 17 Don't talk about the case. Just take five minutes 18 enacted -- OSHA was passed into law in 1970 and 18 and be back ready to go, and Mr. Radcliffe will 19 became effective in 1971. OSHA reduced the level to 19 continue. You are excused for five minutes. Okay? 20 five fibers per cc. And what they did was they 20 Take a brief recess. 21 changed -- we actually had a change in the way we 21 THE COURT CLERK: All rise. Court Reporting in Baltimore/Washington Evans Reporting Service 800-256-8410 29 (Pages 323 to 326) Over 20 years of award-winning service Official Trial Transcript 11/18/08 Page 327 Page 329 1 (Recess taken -- 11:25 a.m.) 1 experiments with rats to see if he can cause 2 (After recess -- 11:32 a.m.) 2 disease. He exposes them to 5,000 fibers per cc. 3 (Jury present -- 11:34 a.m.) 3 Remember the sugar cube? 5,000 fibers in the size 4 THE COURT: Welcome back. Have a seat. 4 of a sugar cube. 5 You may resume your argument. 5 Remember also that the exposure level 6 MR. RADCLIFFE: Thank you, Your Honor. 6 for people in the United States is .1 fiber per 7 All right. So the court reporter is 7 sugar cube. And at 5,000 fibers per sugar cube, he 8 mad at me because I am speaking too quickly. I am 8 gets a reaction, but he does not get mesothelioma 9 trying to get done but not speak so quickly she 9 and he does not get disease, he gets a reaction. So 10 can't write down what I am saying. 10 dose is important. Its something we are going to 11 Dose. It's the amount of asbestos in 11 talk about. 12 the air times how often you take it. A dose of 12 And even when we talk about these 13 aspirin is the amount of aspirin you take times how 13 articles, the state of the art, we are talking about 14 many you take. You can take one aspirin an hour or 14 dose. I showed you -- I was wrong earlier. I said 15 you can take two aspirin every two hours. 15 1936. It's a 1935 article by Lanza. This is the 16 Dose is something that we deal with 16 Public Health Reports. This is the one that the 17 with everything. There is a dose for everything. 17 Treasury Department published, the Treasury 18 There is a dose for water. I don't know if any of 18 Department in charge of the Coast Guard. And he 19 you heard, there was a radio show out in California 19 says here is what causes asbestosis. 20 that they just had these people drink water, who 20 The Public Health Service later 21 could drink the most water. Someone drowned from 21 actually goes into shipyards and does studies for Page 328 Page 330 1 drinking water. 1 the government, for the Navy to find out about 2 There is a dose of water that is 2 asbestosis. And Lanza publishing for the world 3 lethal. There is a dose of aspirin that is lethal. 3 gives some recommendations. What were those 4 There is a dose of sunlight that is lethal, but we 4 recommendations? Keep the exposures low, use 5 don't think about that when we walk out and go to 5 housekeeping, things like that. 6 our cars or maybe even if we are sitting on the 6 1943, the government again. And let me 7 beach or whatever we are doing. 7 just tell you, I am skipping over lots of documents. 8 Dose applies to everything. Dose 8 I cannot possibly cover every single document with 9 applies to asbestos. Dose applies to cyanide. 9 you in the short time that I have, so I am kind of 10 There is dose of cyanide that's lethal. There are 10 skipping along, hitting some of the high points. 11 lesser doses that are not lethal. They are not 11 When we hear witnesses testify, we will get to some 12 necessarily healthy for you. 12 more in depth of these articles. 13 But dose applies to everything that we 13 1943, a government document, United 14 know in nature. It applies to alcohol, it applies 14 States Navy Department, United States Maritime 15 to cigarette smoke, it applies to salt, it applies 15 Commission. They talk about asbestosis. This is 16 to anything you can think of. 16 Safety and Health, Safety and Industrial Health in 17 And when we talk about asbestos, dose 17 Shipyards, Contract Shipyards. 18 is important. Even the experts the plaintiffs bring 18 The shipyards that built the 19 to testify will agree that dose is important. 19 Androscoggin, the Winnebago and the Mendota were 20 One of their experts, Dr. Brody, will 20 contract shipyards. That means they were not owned 21 talk about the dose he gives to rats. He 21 by the Navy, but the Navy contracted with them. And Court Reporting in Baltimore/Washington Evans Reporting Service 800-256-8410 30 (Pages 327 to 330) Over 20 years of award-winning service Official Trial Transcript 11/18/08 Page 331 Page 333 1 they built those ships in '43, '44. And those 1 1957, again, the government adopts the 2 shipyards had to comply with these minimum 2 ACGIH TLV. I told you that there was a voluntary 3 requirements, one of which dealt with asbestosis. 3 organization. That was called the ACGIH, the 4 And what did the government tell to the 4 American Conference of Governmental Industrial 5 shipyard? Look out for asbestosis, look out for it. 5 Hygienists. 6 What do you want? Segregation, use of exhaust 6 And they got together and they said 7 ventilation and respirators, periodic medical 7 let's do something about the many, many chemicals 8 reports. 8 and exposures that happened. They published a list 9 They didn't say stop using asbestos. 9 of TLV, threshold limit value, beginning in 1946, 10 They didn't say don't use it or you can't use it. 10 said here is the exposure limits for all these 11 They said use it, but you have to follow these 11 substances. 12 precautions. You have to make sure that people 12 Well, the government adopts it no later 13 aren't overexposed. Because, remember, if people 13 than '57. Why do I say '57? Excuse me. Why do I 14 aren't overexposed, if their dose doesn't exceed the 14 say at the latest? Well, this is a 1957 document. 15 threshold, they are not going to get disease. 15 And you will see the purpose, to 16 Okay. 1954, it continues. You just 16 provide a replacement enclosure. So they are 17 see the government knowledge. And, remember, the 17 replacing something that was already in existence. 18 government is the Coast Guard. The government 18 Was it '56 that they started, '53, '50? I don't 19 employed Mr. Blackmon. The government is conducting 19 know. But no later than '57, the government has the 20 studies of insulator exposures. This is when we 20 TLV. 21 actually start to see some evidence. 21 So remember, in 1960, the Walsh-Healey Page 332 Page 334 1 We talked about textile factories, we 1 Act, the government imposed minimum requirements for 2 talked about miners and millers and even people who 2 contractors. You have to be safe, you have to 3 worked in factories where they made thermal 3 follow these safety guidelines, one of which is a 5 4 insulation, those people were getting ill. 4 million particle per cubic foot level. 5 If you are in a factory that's making 5 Now the government is saying, wait a 6 pipe covering, you are making tens of thousands of 6 second, we are going to impose it on ourself. We 7 pieces a day. The exposures are high. If you are 7 are going to impose -- the same level that we impose 8 out in the field and you are applying 30 pieces a 8 on the contractor, we are going to impose it on 9 day or a hundred pieces a day, that's a fraction of 9 ourselves. We are going to say you can't be exposed 10 the factory exposure. And it wasn't thought that 10 above 5 million particles. 11 they had enough exposure to get ill. 11 All right. 1959 again, the government 12 But here, we start to see, wait a 12 is engaged in studies of workers, asbestos workers. 13 second, the government is doing studies of 13 Those are the people who worked with the thermal 14 insulators. Those are the people who were working 14 insulation at Mare Island. 15 with the thermal insulation, taking it off, putting 15 And what do they recommend? The 16 it on, cutting it, sawing it, pounding it, creating 16 government is saying here is what we are going to do 17 dust. Those are the people who are getting ill. 17 with our employees. Here is what we are going to 18 1954, the government knows about it. 18 do. 19 The government also knows what to do. Exhaust 19 Mare Island was actually a United 20 ventilation, segregate the work areas, give them 20 States government shipyard. There was a contract 21 respirators if they need it. 21 yard which wasn't owned by the government but built Court Reporting in Baltimore/Washington Evans Reporting Service 800-256-8410 31 (Pages 331 to 334) Over 20 years of award-winning service Official Trial Transcript 11/18/08 Page 335 Page 337 1 ships for the government, and then there are 1 It started studies in the United 2 actually shipyards that are owned by the government 2 States. Well, what kind of studies? You heard -- I 3 where the government employs all the people, 3 think Mr. Frost mentioned Mount Sinai. Mount Sinai 4 civilian employees of the United States government. 4 had somebody who is very famous in asbestos 5 So the government says what we are 5 publications. His name is Dr. Selikoff. That's his 6 going to do is we are going to educate our people, 6 name right there, Irving Selikoff. And he published 7 we are going to give them respirators, and we are 7 extensively. He probably published somewhere near a 8 going to provide exhaust ventilation, 1959. 8 hundred articles on asbestos-related disease. 9 All right. So state of the art, we are 9 And not only that, but early on in the 10 beginning to see -- we haven't even finished yet. 10 '50s, he worked with the union, the insulators 11 We are only up to 1959. State of the art you see is 11 union, the people who were applying the thermal 12 the government, the people who bought the pump from 12 insulation to study them. 13 Goulds, the people who employed Mr. Blackmon were 13 He actually got with the union and 14 intimately involved with the study of asbestos, knew 14 said, look, your people are getting ill. The union 15 not only the hazards of asbestos but what to do to 15 said we know it, we know we are ill, we don't know 16 control the hazards and to prevent disease. 16 how to stop it. And Dr. Selikoff said, let me study 17 So 1960, things begin to change a 17 your workers, let me try to help you, let's see if 18 little bit. First of all, we hear about 18 we can come up with some information. They said 19 mesothelioma. There were cases of mesothelioma 19 great. 20 reported before 1960, but what happened in 1960 is 20 So he started to study the union and 21 this report where they found a number of cases, 33 21 then he began to publish his finings. One of the Page 336 Page 338 1 or 34 of them, all together in one place. 1 things he published was relation between exposure to 2 And remember, I had said that in South 2 asbestos and mesothelioma. All right. That's one 3 Africa, they mined asbestos. They mined a very 3 of the things we were dealing with. 4 specific type of asbestos there. It's called 4 And what does he say? I am going to 5 crocidolite. 5 have to get close. In 1960, Wagner -- he is South 6 And what these authors reported is we 6 African, so he pronounces it Wagner -- Wagner 7 found mesothelioma, a lot of them, in association 7 reported 33 cases of diffuse pleural mesothelioma 8 with people who work with or around or are exposed 8 from the Northwestern Cape Province of South Africa. 9 to crocidolite, blue asbestos. It was the thin, 9 That's the article I just showed you, 1960, the big, 10 sharp, straight asbestos fibers. 10 oh, my gosh, what is going on article. 11 So this really captured everybody's 11 This remarkable concentration of cases 12 attention. Everybody starts thinking, wait a 12 in one area of South Africa was explained by the 13 second, are other types of asbestos causing 13 hypothesis that mesothelioma was the result of 14 mesothelioma? 14 exposure to one special type of asbestos, 15 Nobody woke up the day after this was 15 crocidolite, mined almost entirely in that region. 16 published and said, oh, my gosh, it's time to ban 16 Now, that's not me. That's not my 17 asbestos, we can't use it ever again. That's not 17 experts telling you it was caused by crocidolite. 18 the way science and medicine works. There is 18 That's what Dr. Selikoff said in 1965. 19 questions, there is a hypothesis, and then people go 19 What else? We undertook to study the 20 out to prove it or disprove it. But this, no doubt, 20 question whether mesothelioma of the pleura and 21 was an important publication. 21 peritoneum -- remember I told you about the 32 (Pages 335 to 338) Court Reporting in Baltimore/Washington Evans Reporting Service 800-256-8410 Over 20 years of award-winning service Official Trial Transcript 11/18/08 Page 339 Page 341 1 peritoneum is your abdomen -- had an important 1 to five-inch gasket. The fluid goes through here 2 relation with asbestos exposure in the United 2 and you put the bolt holes through there. This is 3 States. 3 what we are talking about for Goulds. 4 1965. Is the question settled? Would 4 This is the same as a textile factory? 5 one of the world's leading experts publish in 1965 5 This is the same as thermal insulation, thermal 6 we undertook to study the question if it was already 6 insulation that if you crushed it with your hand, 7 known and accepted? 7 you would create powdery dust that would come up in 8 If something is known and accepted by 8 the air, this which you can bend all around which 9 experts, wouldn't his article say we all know that 9 Mr. Blackmon says that you put a compound on so it 10 exposure to asbestos causes mesothelioma, regardless 10 kind ofjust fell off when you took the flange 11 of fiber type? But, no, that's not what he says. 11 apart? No. It doesn't make sense. And it's not 12 He says, we have got this finding of 12 what the experts say either. 13 crocidolite, and that's what explained it, but wait 13 Again, Dr. Selikoff. Information 14 a second, we are not satisfied with that, we are 14 currently available concerning asbestosis has been 15 going to do further tests and we are going to figure 15 derived from studies of employees of asbestos 16 out if exposure to other types of asbestos are 16 textile factories and should probably be referred to 17 important in causing mesothelioma. And he does the 17 such individuals. This is, again, 1965. 18 test. 18 Dr. Selikoff is telling the world if 19 In this publication, he publishes the 19 you study textile factory workers and you find out 20 answer. And this is his answer. He looked at 307 20 information, then that's information for textile 21 people, found ten deaths by mesothelioma. And, 21 factory workers. Page 340 Page 342 1 incidentally, he looked at 31,000 people who were 1 If you want to know about people who 2 thought not to be exposed to asbestos and found 2 worked with asbestos cement, then you should study 3 three deaths. 3 asbestos cement workers, or asbestos insulation 4 So, again, how do we know that not all 4 workers, you need to study asbestos insulation 5 mesotheliomas are caused by exposure to asbestos? 5 workers or asbestos miners or asbestos mill workers. 6 Because if you look at enough people, 31,000, you 6 All these people have different 7 find some mesotheliomas. But this data showed him 7 exposures because, remember, we are talking about 8 and he wrote that, wait a second, asbestos exposure 8 dose which is the length of the exposures and the 9 in this country can cause mesothelioma. So that's 9 intensity of the exposure. It can be a certain 10 1965. So the knowledge continues to advance. 10 level in a textile factory, a lower level in a mine 11 Knowledge continues to grow. 11 or a higher level. 12 What else happens? Well, there has 12 So you have to study the people in 13 been a suggestion, I think, that wait a second, if 13 question to determine is there risk. And that's, 14 you knew asbestos was hazardous in the textile 14 again, what the experts were saying in 1965. 15 industries, if you knew asbestos was hazardous for 15 All right. So '60s, things began to 16 miners and millers, that's all you needed to know. 16 change. We hear about mesothelioma as a result of 17 We know that you are making a pump. We 17 exposure to crocidolite. Studies begin in the U.S. 18 know that the product that people are saying is 18 that confirm that mesothelioma can be an important 19 asbestos containing is this gasket which 19 concern for thermal insulation workers in the U.S. 20 Mr. Blackmon or Mr. Connor I believe you will hear 20 Information from previous studies of 21 from from -- somebody at Goulds -- says it's a four 21 textile workers, miners and millers we are told is Court Reporting in Baltimore/Washington Evans Reporting Service 800-256-8410 33 (Pages 339 to 342) Over 20 years of award-winning service Official Trial Transcript 11/18/08 Page 343 Page 345 1 not relevant to what is going on for us. And even 1 rules. 2 experiences in other countries, South Africa, are 2 Time marches on. 1970, another article 3 not directly related to what happened in the U.S. 3 by Dr. Selikoff. What does he say? Mining, 4 Well, is this some big conspiracy? Is 4 manufacturing. The risk of heavy exposure to dust 5 this some big secret? Did nobody know about it? 5 has been recognized for some time. 6 Was it not reported? No. 6 Absolutely. We agree. The textile 7 This is very difficult to read, I know, 7 factories, the mining, that hazard goes back to the 8 but December 4th, 1968, this is the Washington Post, 8 '30s and maybe even earlier. No question about 9 40, 50 miles down the road in Washington, D.C. The 9 that. 10 title of the article, U.S. Warned of Asbestos Peril. 10 What we are talking about, was there a 11 And this is actually Dr. Selikoff 11 hazard on board ships at the Coast Guard? And if 12 meeting with the -- meeting with -- talking about 12 there was, were there steps taken to protect the 13 the nation's 350,000 shipyard workers. Shipyard 13 workers? And if there are steps taken to protect 14 workers. And he met with Public Health Service, the 14 the workers, if the Navy, the government and the 15 Navy and the Labor Department. So -- and there are 15 Treasury Department are telling its employees here 16 newspaper articles before this time. There are 16 is what you do to protect yourself, isn't that a 17 newspaper articles going back to '64. Asbestos can 17 warning? Doesn't that make the effort to make sure 18 be hazardous if you are exposed to too much. 18 that they are not harmed? 19 All right. Well, what did the 19 Experience had indicated that reduction 20 government do? The government took steps. The 20 of dust levels -- dose again -- to reduce the dust 21 government actually took the information that they 21 levels below the threshold could result in greatly Page 344 Page 346 1 had and they insisted upon work practices to protect 1 improved health experience among asbestos factory 2 the employees. 2 workers. 3 This gentleman is an insulator. You 3 So from the asbestos factory workers, 4 can see that he is covered with asbestos-containing 4 we learn we can make it safe for these workers. We 5 dust. You can see also that he is wearing a 5 can have a safe working environment if we keep the 6 respirator. 6 dust levels low enough. We have to find out what 7 This is actually on board ship during 7 that level is. And the first thought was 5 million 8 ship construction which is different than ship 8 particles per cubic foot. 9 operation, of course. But it gives you an idea of 9 Our primary concern is with the 10 what it's like to handle thermal insulation, the 10 insulation worker. Now, Dr. Selikoff is talking 11 type of stuff that's really dusty. It's all over 11 about people who use products, people like 12 him. He is cutting it with a saw. It gets all 12 Mr. Blackmon who wasn't an insulator, but he used 13 over. Different than working with a gasket. 13 products. He actually used thermal insulation. 14 These are the folks that were thought 14 Not only because we have established 15 to be at risk. And he is told to wear a respirator. 15 the risk -- which, remember, Selikoff was publishing 16 Unfortunately, the people always didn't listen. 16 there is a risk of mesothelioma in 1965 -- but if 17 There is the respirator. But the Navy, the 17 his exposure is brought under control, then the 18 government, the Treasury Department, the Coast 18 other problems will resolve automatically. 19 Guard, they all had rules. And they insisted that 19 Like I said earlier, if the guy who is 20 their employees follow the rules. The employees 20 working with it is working with it in a safe manner, 21 decided whether or not they wanted to follow the 21 he is not at risk, then somebody who is further away Court Reporting in Baltimore/Washington Evans Reporting Service 800-256-8410 34 (Pages 343 to 346) Over 20 years of award-winning service Official Trial Transcript 11/18/08 Page 347 Page 349 1 who is not exposed at that same level will be 1 Mr. Blackmon's employer, in 1971, an accurate 2 protected automatically. That's 1970, before 2 reflection of state of the art, an accurate 3 Mr. Blackmon gets out of the Coast Guard. 3 reflection of what people were thinking in 1971. 4 Now, why is thermal insulation 4 What about the insulators who are being 5 important? This is a ship. It's not one of 5 studied? This is actually in something called the 6 Mr. Blackmon's ships. We don't have pictures of the 6 Insulation Hygiene Progress Report in the summer of 7 engine spaces on Mr. Blackmon's ships. I provide 7 1971. It's a little difficult to tell, but these 8 this to you only as an illustration of what it was 8 gentlemen here are cutting thermal insulation 9 like on board a ship. 9 containing asbestos. They are cutting it in 1971. 10 Tight spaces, equipment all over the 10 Not only are they cutting it, but they are being 11 place, thermal insulation that contained asbestos. 11 monitored. This arrow right there is pointing to a 12 All of this white stuff that you see everywhere, 12 little cassette. 13 thermal insulation that contained asbestos. 13 If you want to know if people are being 14 Now, I don't know if there is a pump 14 exposed to asbestos, you have to monitor them. You 15 anywhere, but I do see a valve, if I can be 15 have to figure out how much asbestos gets into their 16 pardoned. So there might be a gasket right there. 16 breathing zone. 17 How do you get to the gasket? Well, 17 It's known that asbestos can be 18 you have to knock off the thermal insulation. You 18 hazardous. And they are trying to figure out if 19 have to knock off the stuff that the government has 19 these people were being overexposed. Doctors and 20 been publishing about for years to keep its workers 20 scientists were monitoring them. 21 safe, don't have too much of an exposure, don't let 21 You would think that if any old Page 348 Page 350 1 too much dust be generated, before you can get to 1 exposure could do it, they would have said, hey, 2 it. 2 guys, put on a mask, put on a respirator, but they 3 Thermal insulation is the reason that 3 didn't, because in 1971, it wasn't just any 4 Mr. Blackmon has mesothelioma. Gaskets played no 4 exposure, it had to be, according to the government 5 role. 5 and according to the experts, an excessive exposure. 6 1971. This is Dr. Cralley. He is a 6 1972, Dr. Selikoff again. We have 7 Ph.D. He works for the Bureau of Occupational 7 learned that proper engineering procedures will 8 Safety and Health. That's part of the Public Health 8 allow asbestos to be used safely. There is that 9 Service, the United States government, 1971. 1971, 9 word again, safely. 10 he is writing about the safe use of asbestos. It's 10 1972, the government, NIOSH, National 11 a very useful material. What does he say? Asbestos 11 Institute for Occupational Safety and Health, what 12 can be used safely. 12 do they publish? They publish criteria for exposure 13 This is not me arguing, as Mr. Frost 13 to asbestos developed to ensure that it would 14 suggested, that asbestos can be used safely. This 14 protect against asbestos-induced neoplasms, cancer. 15 is a Ph.D. scientist from the Public Health Service 15 A safety factor has been included to 16 of the United States government. Asbestos can be 16 arrive at a safe level. No one disputes that if the 17 used safely in modern technology if adequate 17 asbestos exposure is high enough and long enough, 18 precautions are taken to prevent excessive -- not 18 dose, it can cause asbestosis and cancer. The 19 any exposure, not a passing or trivial exposure, but 19 dispute is which exposure is safe. 20 excessive and unsuspected exposures. 20 This is the government proposing the 21 The United States government, 21 safe level that eventually was going to become law. 35 (Pages 347 to 350) Court Reporting in Baltimore/Washington Evans Reporting Service 800-256-8410 Over 20 years of award-winning service Official Trial Transcript 11/18/08 Page 351 Page 353 1 It's fair to say the controversy has centered on an 1 asbestos gaskets on a Goulds pump, wouldn't you ask 2 area between a two fiber and a five fiber. Do you 2 the question? And we have covered state of the art 3 remember the chart I showed you, five fibers in '72 3 briefly. I know it probably seems like a long time. 4 and two fibers in '76? 4 Just a moment on Goulds. You have 5 So the government was debating which 5 already heard a little bit about Goulds. No dispute 6 level is safe. And the government says there is a 6 Goulds made pumps. Whether it was a small pump or a 7 conflict, we really don't know, but we are going to 7 huge pump, a big piece of metal designed for one 8 resolve the issue in favor of safety, so they say we 8 purpose, and that is to move fluid from one area to 9 are going to make it two fibers per cc in '76. 9 another area. 10 This was a law that was passed in '72, 10 In order to make that work, the 11 and we are telling you in '76, because there is some 11 government or Coast Guard would come to Goulds and 12 doubt, we are going to make it two fibers per cc. 12 say we want a fire pump, we want a sanitary pump, we 13 So, again, the government in '72 -- 13 want a freshwater pump, and Goulds would say, well, 14 when we talk about a safe level and a threshold, 14 what kind of gaskets do you want to use or what is 15 that's what the government said. 15 the application, and this is the gasket you want to 16 Here are OSHA requirements for the 16 use for that. 17 employers which apply to the government, by the way, 17 You will see that the government had a 18 bagging, no labeling of installed products, 18 very specific list. The government set requirements 19 respiratory protection, separate change rooms, and 19 about what the gaskets could or could not contain. 20 so on. We will hear more about that. 20 The government, as we know, is very sophisticated 21 Here is Dr. Selikoff again. This is 21 when it came to asbestos and asbestos-containing Page 352 Page 354 1 1976. He says there is no need to ban asbestos 1 products. 2 fiber. We can use it safely. 2 Goulds made the pumps, sold the pump to 3 '78. I have been talking about 3 the government. The Coast Guard put it on board a 4 gaskets. How is it that I can tell you -- how is it 4 ship which was built in '43 or '44. Mr. Blackmon 5 that I can say that this is not hazardous? How is 5 didn't get on board that ship until the '50s. 6 it that I can stand here before you and say, sure, a 6 Now, if, as plaintiffs claim, there is 7 gasket contains asbestos, but they are not 7 maintenance all the time on these pumps, if you have 8 hazardous? What is my basis for that? 8 to replace the gasket, then any gasket that Goulds 9 Well, this is 1978. And this is a 9 put on its pump in the 1940s was long gone by the 10 study on board ships. This is actually done at 10 time Mr. Blackmon got there. 11 Bremerton, Washington, 1978. And they conclude 11 Goulds did not make any products that 12 gasket removal and cleanup, airborne dust 12 contained asbestos. Goulds didn't make the gaskets. 13 concentrations are considerably less than the 13 You will hear about packing. Most of the packing 14 currently accepted and proposed levels. So remember 14 which you will hear about in this case is metallic 15 the dose, remember the TLV. Gasket cleanup is lower 15 packing, not asbestos but metallic. Goulds didn't 16 than that. 16 make those products. It had to buy them from other 17 All right. We covered Mr. Blackmon, 17 companies. 18 mesothelioma, asbestos very quickly. We have 18 You will actually hear about Garlock in 19 covered the alleged exposure, which you remember -- 19 this case. And you can just barely see the 20 I will keep on coming back to burden of proof. If 20 G-A-R-L-O here. This is a Garlock gasket. 21 you wanted to know if someone was exposed to 21 Goulds, at customer request, if you Court Reporting in Baltimore/Washington Evans Reporting Service 800-256-8410 36 (Pages 351 to 354) Over 20 years of award-winning service Official Trial Transcript 11/18/08 Page 355 Page 357 1 want a gasket, we will put it in there. It could be 1 Guard, he worked as a boiler inspector at a power 2 any type. It can be a Teflon gasket, it can be a 2 generating facility. Those locations were covered 3 metal gasket. If you want packing, it can be 3 with asbestos. 4 metallic, it can be asbestos. What do you, the 4 Gaskets and packing are low-dose 5 customer, want? 5 products. The government says so. Everybody who 6 The evidence in this case relates on 6 has written about it in the medical and scientific 7 the gaskets. So far, the only evidence that we have 7 literature says so. There are some experts hired by 8 seen is the packing was metallic and gaskets on a 8 plaintiffs who will come in and say, no, look at the 9 picture, on a diagram are stated to be asbestos. 9 big levels I got, but that's not what is in the 10 There is no testimony that the gaskets actually 10 medical literature. 11 contained asbestos. 11 Low doses do not cause or contribute to 12 And there is no evidence that Goulds 12 disease. That's been a tenet of science and 13 ever supplied any materials after the pump was 13 medicine since they first started to study asbestos 14 delivered. The pump is delivered, whatever is on it 14 disease. 15 is on it. There is no evidence that Goulds ever 15 We know that the asbestos exposures out 16 sold any other products to the Coast Guard. 16 on the street don't cause disease. We just don't 17 I think cases are a little bit of 17 know how much more than that, but we know it's a 18 puzzle for you, the jury. You have to figure out 18 level above that. 19 how the facts fit. You have to figure out what 19 There is no evidence of substantial 20 makes sense. You have to figure out with all the 20 exposure to Goulds Pumps, and Goulds Pumps was not 21 evidence how it all works together. 21 at fault. Page 356 Page 358 1 In this case, we know Mr. Blackmon had 1 I thank you for your attention. I 2 mesothelioma, he has passed. We know that he 2 don't get -- none of the lawyers get to address you 3 alleges exposure to a number of different products. 3 like this until the very end of the case when we 4 He alleges exposure -- he will tell you 4 come back and put it all together or try to put it 5 about the thermal insulation, he had to remove it, 5 all together. 6 it was dusty, he thinks he breathed it. He will 6 And so in advance, let me thank you for 7 tell you about the pumps. He says Westinghouse. He 7 your attention. Let me thank you for making a 8 had a sufficient exposure to those products to cause 8 sacrifice to come here, because if you didn't do it, 9 mesothelioma. I don't think anybody is going to 9 I really wouldn't be able to do my job. And I look 10 doubt that. 10 forward to speaking to you again. 11 Plaintiffs are going to somehow try to 11 THE COURT: Thank you. 12 argue that this additional exposure, if any, was 12 MR. COTTLE: If it please the Court. 13 significant or substantial, although they won't use 13 THE COURT: Yes. 14 those words, they will use each and every fiber 14 MR. COTTLE: Good afternoon, Your 15 contributed or everything contributes to the whole. 15 Honor. Good afternoon, counsel. Mrs. Blackmon, 16 They won't really come out and say what is 16 good afternoon. 17 substantial and here is why I think it's 17 Ladies and Gentlemen of the Jury, my 18 substantial. 18 name is Eric Cottle. Together with my partner, 19 And the exposure could have occurred in 19 James Lowery, we are proud to represent the ladies 20 the Coast Guard or after. He worked as a boiler 20 and gentlemen of Crane Co. 21 inspector. Boilers -- after he got out of the Coast 21 And on behalf of the ladies and 37 (Pages 355 to 358) Court Reporting in Baltimore/Washington Evans Reporting Service 800-256-8410 Over 20 years of award-winning service Official Trial Transcript 11/18/08 Page 359 Page 361 1 gentlemen of Crane Co., Jim and I would like to 1 Mr. Blackmon's illness was caused by 2 extend our deepest sympathies to the Blackmon family 2 the other more dusty -- those friable products that 3 for your loss. 3 we discussed earlier. And what the evidence is 4 Crane Co. -- you heard a lot about 4 going to show -- and it's going to be through a lot 5 Crane Co. valves. And you have to remember that the 5 of experts and science -- is that Crane Co. valves 6 events that occurred during the course of 6 were safe. 7 Mr. Blackmon's exposure occurred maybe 50 years ago. 7 Now, Crane Co. has been around for 8 And Crane Co. is a valve company and at 8 about 150 years. It was founded by two brothers. 9 all relevant times exercised care and brought its 9 And they made all types of valves. The valves were 10 engineering and -- brought its engineering and 10 built to handle many different types of 11 manufacturing process precisely to the level of care 11 applications, but mainly for the control of fluids 12 that was known and understood during the relevant 12 and steam in some type of a system. 13 time period. 13 What is important to remember 14 Excuse me. A little technical 14 throughout this trial as you are listening to the 15 difficulty. My daughters have to set my computer 15 evidence and especially as you listen to the state 16 stuff up. And I text them everyday. And I just 16 of the art evidence is that Crane Co. never 17 learned how to do texting, and that was a very big 17 manufactured, never milled, never mined any 18 accomplishment. 18 asbestos-containing product. 19 One of the key issues that will be 19 Crane Co. built valves for many 20 involved in this trial is whether Mr. Blackmon had 20 applications, many industries, including the Coast 21 substantial exposure to any products of Crane Co. or 21 Guard, the Navy and the government. It had never Page 360 Page 362 1 Cranite. 1 mined the products and never manufactured the 2 Now, what our contentions are and what 2 products. 3 we think the evidence will show is that exposures 3 Now, here is a picture here of men and 4 from many of the dusty asbestos products are the 4 women at Crane Co. back in the era of the 1940s and 5 products that caused Mr. Blackmon's disease. And 5 '50s. They worked hard to design and sell a good, 6 you heard a lot about the thermal insulation. We 6 safe product. And at all times, they believed that 7 are going to get into that. I am not going to be 7 their valves were safe. 8 repetitive. 8 What we believe the science is going to 9 Now, Mr. Blackmon experienced most of 9 show is that the asbestos gaskets and packing used 10 his significant exposures as a result of working 10 in some of the valves were safe. And not all the 11 around thermal insulation that was on board the 11 valves contained asbestos packing and gaskets. 12 ships that was in the U.S. Coast Guard. It was also 12 Now, there are many types of valves. 13 during home repair and remodeling projects and as a 13 And I will show one to you live. 14 boiler inspector. 14 May I approach? 15 At the conclusion of the case, we 15 This is an example of the valves that 16 believe the evidence will show that Crane Co. 16 Crane Co. sold to the Navy. They came as bare metal 17 exercised reasonable care at all times. And Crane 17 valves. 18 Co. was not liable for that external insulation that 18 We talked about the gaskets before. 19 you saw pictures of in the Navy in those tight 19 There is a bonnet gasket that would go in between 20 spaces. Crane Co. is not responsible, not liable 20 the top and the bottom of the valve to create a 21 for any of those external insulation products. 21 seal. That is one type of gasket. Court Reporting in Baltimore/Washington Evans Reporting Service 800-256-8410 38 (Pages 359 to 362) Over 20 years of award-winning service Official Trial Transcript 11/18/08 Page 363 Page 365 1 When we talk about the packing, here is 1 the chrysotile fiber. This is the fiber that's 2 an example of packing. And this would go around the 2 contained in the packing and gaskets. The type of 3 stem. And what that would do is create a seal so 3 fiber is curly, it breaks easily, doesn't have iron 4 none of the gases or liquids can go out and injure. 4 as a component. 5 So that is basically Valve 101. 5 The other two types, the amosite and 6 And we are talking about a flange 6 the crocidolite, sharper, more dagger-like types of 7 gasket. Now, these gaskets were used to create a 7 fibers. And that is a distinction that's very 8 seal. Sometimes valves were placed on a steam 8 important. 9 system and they hook it to a pipe. And to create a 9 The amphibole fibers are the fibers 10 seal, you might use a gasket. Okay? 10 that are in the dusty insulation products. Those 11 But these are the products that we are 11 are the fibers that contained iron. Not chrysotile. 12 talking about when we refer to Crane Co. products. 12 The mechanism that you will learn -- 13 We sold the bare metal valves to the Navy, in this 13 the science -- when you breathe in chrysotile, it 14 case to the military, the Coast Guard. And these 14 breaks up easily in the lung and the body clears it 15 are the products we are speaking of. We are talking 15 easily using its mechanisms. It clears from the 16 about packing and gasket products. 16 lung easier. It takes months to clear or weeks, 17 Now, why is that important? Not all 17 compared to the amosite which takes up to decades to 18 the valves had stem packing. Not all the valves had 18 clear from the lungs. 19 connections that used gaskets. And not all the 19 We discussed dose. And you've heard 20 valves, the head gaskets and packing were even 20 the expression the poison will be in the dose. 21 asbestos containing. 21 Each -- asbestos diseases are dose dependent. And Page 364 Page 366 1 Now, I am going to go through these 1 you hear the expression of two aspirin will cure a 2 slides here. I don't want to be redundant, but it's 2 headache. A hundred aspirin, that's not too good. 3 very important that -- I want to stress some of the 3 It's probably not a good thing, can cause death. 4 different presentations that have been heard 4 Gaskets and packing, neither type of 5 earlier. 5 asbestos are dose related. And just simply -- the 6 Asbestos is a natural-occurring 6 science will show there is not sufficient dose in 7 mineral. It's mined from the earth. It's 7 these types of products to cause the disease 8 indestructible almost. 8 mesothelioma. 9 The great thing about asbestos, what it 9 The evidence is also going to show that 10 was used for, it was a very fibrous material mined 10 not all asbestos products are the same. 11 from the earth. It was very flexible, a lot of 11 Encapsulated products, which are like packing and 12 strength, easy to weave into wool and other 12 gasketing here -- they are encapsulated -- they are 13 products. 13 very different from the thermal insulation products 14 Gaskets and packing are different. Why 14 which you are going to see and talk about later. 15 is that? Because they contained the chrysotile 15 Asbestos packing and gaskets are encapsulated 16 fibers which are less potent. And the science will 16 products. 17 show that the chrysotile fibers do not cause 17 And, also, the exposure. Not all 18 mesothelioma in a lifetime. 18 exposures to asbestos are harmful. Ordinary 19 We went over the different types of 19 background levels of exposures, such as we have here 20 gaskets, different types of asbestos fibers. I just 20 in Maryland, are everywhere. The packing and 21 want to point out some differences. On my left is 21 gaskets released very minimal levels of asbestos. Court Reporting in Baltimore/Washington Evans Reporting Service 800-256-8410 39 (Pages 363 to 366) Over 20 years of award-winning service Official Trial Transcript 11/18/08 Page 367 Page 369 1 And the science will show and the 1 President Roosevelt directed that the Coast Guard 2 evidence will show that there was no duty to warn 2 operate as part of the Navy and subject to the 3 about asbestos packing and gaskets during the 3 Secretary of the Navy. And they remained that way 4 relevant time period that we are talking about here. 4 from 1941 to 1946. And that's important because at 5 Now, I am going to talk about the 5 least three of the ships that Mr. Blackmon served on 6 valves that were on the Coast Guard ships. The ship 6 were built during this time period. 7 systems were completely designed and built by the 7 And even after 1946, the Navy and the 8 U.S. government, its shipyards and its U.S. 8 Coast Guard played intimate roles with each other. 9 government engineers. They designed and specified 9 And that was through executive order as well. 10 the steam power systems on these ships. 10 Mr. Blackmon served on the 11 There are many types of valves that 11 Androscoggin. And that ship saw combat during the 12 were on Mr. Blackmon's ships. And not all the 12 Vietnam conflict. And during the time that the ship 13 valves contained asbestos. 13 served in the military during Vietnam conflict, they 14 The evidence is going to show that the 14 were under Navy control. 15 valves were made precisely to U.S. government 15 What else is going on during that time? 16 specifications and U.S. military drawings. The 16 We all know what happened in history, 1941. And you 17 ships were completely designed by the military. 17 saw the graph earlier. Asbestos was used during 18 Crane Co. was not the only supplier of 18 this time to help build ships. 19 valves on the ship either. 19 The sinking of the Arizona. This is 20 Now, what the evidence is also going to 20 what was going on during this time. This is why the 21 show is that the ships that Mr. Blackmon served on 21 military required asbestos-containing products on Page 368 Page 370 1 were, literally, filled with tons of 1 its ships, because it was vital to the war effort. 2 asbestos-containing thermal insulation. And this 2 Asbestos, according to the military, 3 insulation, according to his testimony, would flake 3 was lightweight. The military can place more 4 and release dust levels on the ship due to the 4 weapons on the ships, put more armor on the ships, 5 ship's motion, rough seas, and firing of guns. 5 and it helped defeat America's enemies. It also 6 These are all conditions that you are going to hear 6 saved sailors' lives. It made the ships faster and 7 about that would release that dusty thermal 7 more maneuverable. 8 insulation that Mr. Blackmon was exposed to. 8 Asbestos on these ships was also heat 9 And the levels of exposure aboard the 9 resistant. It saved the sailors' lives on enemy 10 military ships have been measured higher than 10 actions. And it also was water resistant, which is 11 background levels in the United States. 11 important. It does not degrade fast, does not rot, 12 Now, we are going to talk a little bit 12 mold in a maritime environment. 13 about the military's control over Crane Co. And I 13 The military made the decision to use 14 told you -- we talked a little bit about the 14 asbestos based on the United States government state 15 military specifications. They designed the ships, 15 of the art knowledge about asbestos and its 16 they assembled the components, they did the 16 operational necessities. Asbestos was vital to our 17 drawings, they tested the systems, and they had 17 war effort. 18 inspectors out. 18 Now, we touched on this a little bit 19 One thing we want to talk about here is 19 earlier about what was known. And I am just going 20 the relationship between the Coast Guard and the 20 to kind of give you a summary of some of the slides. 21 Navy. And in 1941, through executive order, 21 But it's very important to understand what was known 40 (Pages 367 to 370) Court Reporting in Baltimore/Washington Evans Reporting Service 800-256-8410 Over 20 years of award-winning service Official Trial Transcript 11/18/08 Page 371 Page 373 1 by the United States government about asbestos 1 And it notes that the Navy prefers the 2 insulation during Mr. Blackmon's service. 2 use of amosite asbestos on these ships. This was 3 In 1918, the Hoffman report. 3 known in 1946, when at least three of the ships that 4 Government knowledge that asbestos -- they believed 4 Mr. Blackmon served on were being built. So this is 5 that asbestos exposure can cause tuberculosis. It 5 the knowledge that the United States government had. 6 notes that little research has been done about 6 The Hueper report, risks of known lung 7 asbestos, and it called for more extensive 7 cancer. It views asbestosis as a prerequisite for 8 investigation of the health aspects of asbestos 8 asbestos-related lung cancer, 1955. 9 manufacture. That's in 1918. That's a United 9 The Selikoff report. And this is 10 States Bureau of Labor Statistics document. 10 important. In 1968, Dr. Selikoff presents asbestos 11 In 1922, Dublin, published by the 11 studies. And he shows that shipyards' exposure to 12 United States Department of Labor, Bureau of Labor 12 asbestos was a large rate. The Navy was well aware 13 Statistics. It notes workers face hazards posed by 13 of the hazards of asbestos exposure in 1968. 14 asbestos dust. Dusts are associated with pulmonary 14 This is an internal Navy memo. And 15 fibrosis due to asbestos injury. 15 this, again, showed that the United States Navy was 16 So the government was aware of the 16 well aware of the hazards of asbestos. And what it 17 dangers of asbestos prior to 1918 and 1922. 17 concluded was in the bottom, for these reasons, 18 This is a report by Lanza. It was 18 packing and gaskets containing asbestos are not 19 touched on earlier. 1935, it discussed the studies 19 considered to be a significant health risk. 20 of dust conditions in asbestos mines, mills and 20 So up until 1968, the U.S. government 21 asbestos insulation plants. 21 internal memos are saying that these products, Page 372 Page 374 1 Why is that important here? Because in 1 packing and gaskets, are safe, that they are not a 2 1935, what everyone was concerned with was mines, 2 problem. This is what the state of the art was back 3 mills and insulation. Remember, Crane Co. was not a 3 in 1968. 4 manufacturer. It didn't mine insulation, it didn't 4 And that's important because in 1968, 5 work with raw asbestos products. The conclusion was 5 we know one of the ships, the Androscoggin, saw 6 that exposure to asbestos causes asbestosis. 6 conflict during the Vietnam conflict. And during 7 The Dreessen report. Also, U.S. Public 7 his service aboard the ship, his duties fell under 8 Health Service, the Dreessen report. The 8 the United States Navy's control. As a matter of 9 culmination of the report found numerous cases of 9 fact, Mr. Blackmon's unit received a Navy 10 asbestos among asbestos textile workers. The 10 commendation and medals for its service in Vietnam. 11 conclusion was that cases of asbestos will arise in 11 In 1968, while that ship is serving in 12 dust levels over a certain quality. This is also 12 Vietnam under Navy control, the Navy is putting out 13 1938, U.S. textile. 13 studies saying that packing and gaskets don't pose a 14 The Fleischer-Drinker report was a 14 health risk. This is 1968. 15 large-scale study of insulation workers. This was 15 The U.S. government occupational health 16 done in coordination with the Navy shipyards and 16 parallelled and sometimes led the development of 17 working on Navy ships being built. And what they 17 industrial hygiene and occupational medicine during 18 stated in that article was it is well known that 18 the 20th century. 19 industrial disease is caused by only one thing, 19 The Navy was aware for decades, long 20 asbestos, and breathing in asbestos dust is 20 before Mr. Blackmon's service, of the potential 21 dangerous. 21 hazards of asbestos. But the focus was on airborne Court Reporting in Baltimore/Washington Evans Reporting Service 800-256-8410 41 (Pages 371 to 374) Over 20 years of award-winning service Official Trial Transcript 11/18/08 Page 375 Page 377 1 asbestos insulation, not on packing and gaskets. 1 earlier. And we are going to go into some detail 2 They had programs in place during this 2 with our experts that asbestos-containing gaskets 3 time period to protect and warn sailors about these 3 and packing are safe. 4 dangers. But these, unfortunately, were times when 4 The Bremerton study was mentioned 5 these ships were being built, that these programs 5 earlier in 1978. This is after Mr. Blackmon's 6 sometimes did not get passed down to the seamen. 6 service in the Coast Guard, maybe five or six years. 7 The Navy knew by at least 1922 that 7 Even after his service, studies are showing that 8 asbestos was a potential hazard. Between the 1920s 8 asbestos gaskets and packing are safe. 9 and 1930s, the Navy is talking about in those 9 Dr. Selikoff we heard probably studied 10 articles taking control measures. They are talking 10 asbestos the most of anyone. In 1978, he put out a 11 about wetting down asbestos insulation, working in 11 publication in a book again saying that working with 12 ventilated areas, using respirators. This is in the 12 asbestos packing and gaskets are safe. 13 1920s, 1930s. The Navy knows this. The government 13 To sum it all up, there is nothing that 14 knows these things. 14 Crane Co. or any of these companies have done that 15 In the 1930s, the government knew that 15 change Mr. Blackmon's exposure to thermal 16 there was a need for using protective measures for 16 insulation, to his total exposure to asbestos 17 sailors working with asbestos products. They knew 17 products while he was in the Coast Guard. 18 by '39 that they had to warn and protect sailors. 18 That is a picture of the Androscoggin 19 By 1945, the Navy concluded that 19 painted in its military colors there. You can see 20 applying asbestos on board ships using standard 20 the gun in the front. It was used in the Vietnam 21 industrial hygiene measures was safe. 21 conflicts to help support troops landing, the Page 376 Page 378 1 We are not blaming the Navy, but we 1 Marines. It was used as part of the Tet offensive. 2 have to have this all in context. The Navy and 2 He served on that ship with honor. 3 government were well aware of wetting down 3 To give you an idea -- you saw pictures 4 procedures and how to protect the sailors. The 4 of what the quarters looked like and some of the 5 knowledge did not always get passed to the seamen. 5 engine spaces. But there is going to be testimony 6 The Navy and the Coast Guard did not always use 6 from Mr. Blackmon about his sleeping quarters. And 7 routine measures to control dust. They did not 7 you can see the sleeping quarters here. 8 always have special ventilation for asbestos work. 8 You can see insulation running -- 9 And they did not always use the wetting down 9 MR. FROST: Your Honor, I do have to 10 procedures and operations. 10 object to this just because these are not Coast 11 Like I said, we are not blaming the 11 Guard ships. I have seen these before, and they are 12 Navy, the government or the Coast Guard, but they 12 on Navy ships. So as long as he makes it clear that 13 just simply did not -- they knew about these 13 these are not the ships -- 14 procedures that could help prevent and save sailors, 14 THE COURT: These are not the same 15 but they just did not implement them. 15 ships being discussed. 16 And at all times during this time 16 MR. FROST: These are not Coast Guard 17 period, the U.S. government and outside community 17 ships. 18 considered asbestos-containing gaskets and packings 18 THE COURT: They are Navy vessels. 19 safe. I summarized those studies. 19 MR. COTTLE: These are Navy ships. We 20 In a 1968 memo, asbestos-containing 20 are giving you an indication of the testimony of 21 gaskets are safe. 1971 Harries study we discussed 21 what some of the berthing quarters looked like on Court Reporting in Baltimore/Washington Evans Reporting Service 800-256-8410 42 (Pages 375 to 378) Over 20 years of award-winning service Official Trial Transcript 11/18/08 Page 379 Page 381 1 some of the ships. They were tight quarters. 1 exposure, Westinghouse, Yarway, Foster Wheeler 2 There is testimony that Mr. Blackmon 2 boilers. You are going to hear about that when he 3 slept on the top bunk and there was asbestos-covered 3 was a boiler tender. 4 insulation on the bunk. And during rough seas, the 4 You are going to hear about 5 testimony would be that some of that would shake 5 Georgia-Pacific, Kaiser-Gypsum, Cleaver-Brooks and 6 when the guns were fired. The point is you can see 6 all sorts of other companies that he worked around 7 how the quarters contained asbestos thermal 7 that contained these friable, dusty products. So 8 insulation. 8 it's not just two companies with packing and 9 The true sources of exposure -- you 9 gaskets, it's the total exposure in his career and 10 only heard about gaskets and packing from two 10 in his lifetime to these dusty other products. 11 companies here. I want to give you the total 11 Now, no steps by Crane Co. that they 12 picture here are the miles of pipe insulation and 12 could have done could change what the United States 13 thermal insulation that was wrapped around these 13 Coast Guard has done to design or specify its 14 pipes, that was wrapped around some of this 14 valves. They could have taken no steps. 15 equipment on the ships that Mr. Blackmon served. 15 Nothing that Crane Co. could have done 16 Mr. Blackmon is going to say that there 16 would change what the Coast Guard ordered 17 is insulation throughout the ship, even in the 17 Mr. Blackmon to do. 18 sleeping quarters that we showed. The workers that 18 We couldn't have changed the fact that 19 he worked around in those compartments removed this 19 he had to be around the tear-outs and sleep in those 20 dusty insulation, this pipe covering. 20 conditions in the tight quarters. 21 The testimony is going to be that it 21 There is nothing Crane Co. could have Page 380 Page 382 1 was cut, it was sawed on many occasions, and it 1 done to prevent Mr. Blackmon's exposure to the 2 created a massive amount of dust. He worked around 2 harmful asbestos insulation on the U.S. government 3 these conditions while in the Coast Guard. 3 or Coast Guard vessels. There is nothing Crane Co. 4 You are also going to hear about other 4 could have done to prevent that. 5 products, insulating cement where he would mix or 5 And the evidence is going to show that 6 workers would mix cement to insulate some of the 6 not all gaskets and packing contained asbestos and 7 pipes or products. And the mixing and pouring that 7 not all valves were supplied by Crane Co. 8 cement into a trough and putting water on top of 8 Now, we have to look back. What was 9 that would create dust. 9 understood about packing and gaskets during 10 He worked around boilers that were 10 Mr. Blackmon's service? 11 covered with blankets. He would tear off the 11 Now, I am talking about hindsight. And 12 blankets, and that would create dust. That process 12 we know that everything is clearer in hindsight. 13 created a lot of dust. Turbines and generators were 13 And you have to remember as you are sitting here 14 also covered with asbestos-containing thermal 14 today in 2008 -- you have to put yourself back 50 15 insulation which created a lot of dust. 15 years to know what was taking place or what was 16 There are also other sources. There 16 understood during that time period. 17 were pumps. You heard about that. And there are 17 And we know in the 1950s, things were 18 other companies identified that manufactured pumps 18 different than they are in 2008. I remember sitting 19 on the ships that he worked on. 19 in my father's car in the '60s with no seat belt in 20 Insulation. There is mud, brick, pads, 20 the front. If we did that now in 2008, we would be 21 pipe covering on steam lines. Other sources of 21 considered reckless. Okay? But we have to look Court Reporting in Baltimore/Washington Evans Reporting Service 800-256-8410 43 (Pages 379 to 382) Over 20 years of award-winning service Official Trial Transcript 11/18/08 Page 383 Page 385 1 back at what was known then and what is known now. 1 still was a vital aspect of safety. The research 2 And taking that seat belt further, we 2 during that period of 1951 to 1970 focuses on mines 3 have the child in the seat by herself, then it 3 and mills, but only on the end-users of finished 4 developed to a lap belt, shoulder harness and lap 4 products, insulation. That's up until 1964. Still, 5 combination, to car seats. Now we have air bags and 5 the focus is not on gaskets and packing which are 6 beyond. So technology is developing. 6 being associated with our valves. Up until 1964, we 7 But we have to look at the technology 7 are talking about mines, mills and insulation 8 that was available back during the relevant time 8 products in 1964. 9 periods of this case. And that's something that you 9 1971 to present -- we talked about the 10 have to do and be prudent to put yourself back to 10 P.G. Harries study. And we are going to go through 11 what was known during the 1950s, '60s, '70s and even 11 all these studies in detail. But even into 1990, 12 further back than that. 12 they published articles saying that asbestos packing 13 What else? We know that asbestos 13 and gaskets are low-dose products and that they are 14 during that time was commonly used and it was safe. 14 safe. And this is going to come from our experts. 15 Fire mits for the oven gloves to protect you from 15 So 1990s, which is, you know, almost 20 16 being burned. Asbestos snow was sold to put on 16 years after Mr. Blackmon left the U.S. Coast Guard, 17 Christmas trees to help prevent fires. The Rowley 17 the science and the studies are still showing that 18 safety asbestos iron rest to save fires, to rest 18 packing and gaskets associated with valves that are 19 your iron down so you weren't burned. 19 at issue are safe. 20 And I am not going to go through all 20 We are not going to get into the 21 the events here, but we talked about the Chicago 21 Price-Merewether studies. Mr. Frost, he brought up, Page 384 Page 386 1 fire in 1903. 603 souls were lost. After that 1 you know, the studies. He showed you the books and 2 fire, asbestos curtains were standard in theaters. 2 they were getting larger and larger and the 3 And it used to come down and say asbestos right 3 knowledge of these companies. 4 across to let everybody in theaters know that it was 4 But you know what these studies were 5 safe because the curtains there wouldn't probably 5 dealing with in the 1930s? Mills. They dealt with 6 catch on fire because they were asbestos. But that 6 individuals making raw -- using raw asbestos. And 7 was back then. 7 they still concluded asbestos could be used safely. 8 1904, the General Slocum fire off the 8 And keep in mind, raw asbestos, textile 9 coast of New Jersey. Why was that important? There 9 mills were not Crane Co.'s business. We are a valve 10 was so many souls lost because the fire went through 10 manufacturer. 11 that ship so quick because it didn't have asbestos 11 Again, the Dreessen study dealt with 12 insulation. After that, the maritime industry 12 textile mills only, dealing with raw asbestos. It 13 started to use asbestos insulation on the ships to 13 concluded that asbestos could be used safely. 14 help save lives. 14 Again, Crane Co. is not a miner, miller, does not 15 But the focus from the 1900s to the 15 work with raw asbestos. 16 1950s was -- the beneficial health research focused 16 And the studies continue. Fleischer 17 on mining and milling of asbestos. It didn't focus 17 and Drinker in 1946, they studied insulation workers 18 on packing and gaskets. It focused on workers 18 in Navy shipyards. They conclude exposures lower 19 working with insulation, workers milling it and 19 than the textile mills, factory workers. The 20 workers making it. 20 conclusion: Insulation work is not dangerous in 21 1951 to 1970, they are saying asbestos 21 1946. Again, focusing on the millers and the miners Court Reporting in Baltimore/Washington Evans Reporting Service 800-256-8410 44 (Pages 383 to 386) Over 20 years of award-winning service Official Trial Transcript 11/18/08 Page 387 Page 389 1 of these products. 1 They knew about this knowledge. 2 The Wagner study, in conclusion, never 2 And Dr. Forman is going to come in and 3 believed that chrysotile caused mesothelioma, which 3 give you the history of all the documents that were 4 is 1960. 4 presented today regarding state of the art. He said 5 Selikoff, the first large-scale study 5 the Navy's occupational health programs parallelled 6 dealt with asbestos insulation, not other products. 6 at times what the industrial hygiene community knew 7 We talked about the Navy memo which 7 about asbestos-related disease. 8 concluded gaskets and packing were not dusty. 8 And Fred Boelter, he is also a 9 Asbestos insulation is hazardous, but gaskets and 9 certified industrial hygienist. He is going to come 10 packing are not. That's the internal Navy memo. 10 in. And we talked about the dose, the poison is in 11 And the P.G. Harries study, World 11 the dose. Well, he is going to talk about the 12 Health Organization. And there is more that, you 12 studies regarding valves and his conclusions that 13 know, we can put in here that we will get to during 13 Crane Co. valves would have not exposed plaintiff to 14 the trial. But there is no risk with asbestos 14 dangerous doses of asbestos from packing or gaskets. 15 packing and gaskets in 1972. 15 He is going to conclude because gaskets 16 It continues with Selikoff in 1976. 16 and packing are not friable products, okay, it's not 17 Selikoff in 1978 continued to conclude that asbestos 17 the dusty product that we talked about before, Crane 18 packing and gaskets posed no health hazards. 18 Co. valves are safe and Crane Co. valves would not 19 And you are not going to hear this from 19 have been the cause of Mr. Blackmon's disease. 20 the lawyers. We are actually going to bring in 20 So what we would like you to do is the 21 experts that are going to talk about the state of 21 plaintiffs have the burden of proof. But you have Page 388 Page 390 1 the art. 1 to keep an open mind throughout the presentation of 2 One of the experts we plan to call, 2 trial because there are two sides to the story. And 3 Admiral David Sargent. He is a retired Rear 3 today, our intent was to give you a flavor of the 4 Admiral, U.S. Navy. He is going to testify that all 4 state of the art and what both sides are about. 5 asbestos products used in or around Crane Co. valves 5 It's not a case of two companies coming 6 were specified by the United States Navy, the 6 in with packing and gaskets. You have to look at 7 government. The Navy supplied it, and they were 7 the entire picture and the entire history of what 8 installed by the Navy shipyards and builders. 8 occurred during the relevant time period, the total 9 The Navy and the Navy shipyards and the 9 exposures that Mr. Blackmon had during his career to 10 United States government were highly sophisticated, 10 those dusty, friable insulation products. You have 11 and they were concerned about insulation materials 11 to look at the total picture of those products. 12 on ships. 12 And I think the keys you are going to 13 You are also going to hear from 13 have to decide is that Crane Co. valves were not a 14 Dr. Samuel Forman. He is a doctor, board certified 14 substantial contributing factor in causing 15 in occupational medicine. He was actually hired by 15 Mr. Blackmon's disease, and it was those other more 16 the Navy to do a study to figure out what did the 16 toxic, more potent, more friable, more dusty 17 government know about asbestos. 17 products that were mentioned and you have seen in 18 And he concludes by the 1940s, the Navy 18 the slides that was the cause. 19 and United States government had extensive knowledge 19 And as far as the failure to warn or 20 about asbestos hazards on ships and the Navy and the 20 the duty to warn about asbestos packing and gaskets, 21 U.S. government shipyards. They had the knowledge. 21 we are going to -- evidence is going to show that Court Reporting in Baltimore/Washington Evans Reporting Service 800-256-8410 45 (Pages 387 to 390) Over 20 years of award-winning service Official Trial Transcript 11/18/08 Page 391 Page 393 1 those risks of packing and gaskets were not 1 a good lunch. 2 recognized during the time period that Mr. Blackmon 2 Have a seat. 3 may have been exposed to those products, so there is 3 Are we ready to go? 4 no duty to warn about those products, and they did 4 MR. ZACHAROPOULOS: I will just get 5 not pose a risk. 5 Mr.~Frost. 6 At the end of the conclusion of the 6 THE COURT: There he is. 7 case, we believe the evidence is going to show that 7 Would you like to call the witness? 8 the gaskets and packing used with the valves were 8 MR. FROST: I guess I can't call 9 just not a substantial contributing factor to 9 myself. I apologize, Your Honor. 10 causing Mr. Blackmon's disease and it was the other 10 Your Honor, at this time, we would call 11 more potent asbestos products on board the ships, at 11 Mr. William Lowell. 12 other job sites that caused Mr. Blackmon's 12 THE COURT: Swear the witness, please. 13 mesothelioma, that the Crane Co. valves were safe 13 Welcome. 14 and Crane Co. exercised reasonable care and that 14 THE COURT CLERK: Raise your right 15 Crane Co. had no duty to warn about valves that 15 hand. 16 contained asbestos packing and gaskets. 16 Whereupon, 17 I want to thank you for your time. You 17 CAPTAIN WILLIAM A. LOWELL, 18 have been so patient here with us. I tried to do 18 the witness herein, being first duly sworn under 19 our presentation streamlined with everyone here. 19 penalty of perjury to tell the truth, the whole 20 Jim and I, we look forward to talking to you again 20 truth, and nothing but the truth, was examined and 21 during the course of this trial. Thank you. 21 testified as follows: Page 392 Page 394 1 THE COURT: Thank you, counsel. 1 THE COURT CLERK: Thank you. You may 2 That's probably all the excitement I 2 be seated. Be careful. The chair doesn't move and 3 can stand for one morning. Thank you for your time 3 you have to sit on the edge. 4 and attention. I am going to excuse you to the jury 4 THE COURT: You have to speak into the 5 room. Madam Clerk is going to come up and get you 5 mike or else it is hard to hear with all this noise. 6 paid. Get lunch. Don't talk about the case. 6 THE COURT CLERK: Please state your 7 Reserve all judgments. I will see all of you -- be 7 name and your business address for the record, 8 back in the jury room at 2:00 ready to go. See you 8 please. 9 all at 2:00. We will be in recess. 9 THE WITNESS: My name is William A. 10 THE COURT CLERK: All rise. 10 Lowell. My address 45, Sixth Avenue, Augusta, 11 (Luncheon recess -- 12:44 p.m.) 11 Maine, zip code 04330. 12 (After recess -- 2:05 p.m.) 12 THE COURT CLERK: Thank you. 13 THE COURT CLERK: All rise. The 13 THE COURT: You may proceed. 14 Circuit Court for Baltimore City, Part 8, now 14 MR. FROST: Thank you, Your Honor. 15 resumes its afternoon session, the Honorable John M. 15 DIRECT EXAMINATION 16 Glynn presiding. 16 BY MR. FROST: 17 THE COURT: Please be seated. Good 17 Q Good afternoon, Captain Lowell. How 18 afternoon. 18 are you? 19 Eric, retrieve the jury if you would. 19 A I am fine. Thank you. 20 (Jury present.) 20 Q And I call you Captain. Could you 21 THE COURT: Welcome back. Hope you had 21 explain to the members of the jury what your Court Reporting in Baltimore/Washington Evans Reporting Service 800-256-8410 46 (Pages 391 to 394) Over 20 years of award-winning service Official Trial Transcript 11/18/08 Page 395 Page 397 1 training background and experience is? 1 graduated? You went in at 16. How old were you 2 A Yes. Yes. I started in a maritime 2 when you graduated? 3 college in 1953. It was year-round, 12 months a 3 A I was 19. 4 year, and graduated in 1956. 4 Q And how were you able to graduate from 5 At that time, I got a government third 5 this college-level academy in three years? 6 engineer's license from Merchant Marine Service, a 6 A Because I was young when I went in, and 7 commission in the United States Naval Reserve and a 7 I didn't have too much trouble academically. 8 degree in marine engineering. 8 Q And what year did you graduate from the 9 Q And, Captain Lowell, are you the 9 Maine Maritime Academy? 10 individual that's going to explain to the members of 10 A 1956. 11 the jury what asbestos-containing products were on 11 Q Now, what made you want to attend the 12 the ships that Mr. Blackmon served on? 12 Maine Maritime Academy? 13 A Yes, sir. I can. 13 A We had a long seafaring tradition in 14 Q Okay. And you and I are going to focus 14 our family. 15 in this afternoon for brevity's sake on Goulds and 15 Q And could you just tell us briefly what 16 Crane, but there are some other products that were 16 that means? 17 in the engine spaces that Mr. Blackmon have worked 17 A Well, my father went to sea, my brother 18 in too; is that correct? 18 went to sea, my grandfather went to sea and 19 A That is correct, sir. 19 primarily on merchant ships, commercial ships. 20 Q But you and I going to focus in on only 20 Q Now, when you were at the Maritime 21 those two for right now? 21 Academy, did you graduate? Page 396 Page 398 1 A Yes. 1 A Yes, sir. 2 Q Now, you talked about the Maine 2 Q And what type of degree did you 3 Maritime Academy. You are the first witness that 3 graduate with? 4 the jury has seen. Can you explain to them what the 4 A A bachelor in marine engineering, 5 Maine Maritime Academy is? 5 bachelor of science. 6 A It was to train officers for the 6 Q And what is marine engineering? 7 Merchant Marine primarily. Also, it gave us a lot 7 A Oh, it is the art of operating ships, 8 of Navy training and primarily dealt with ship 8 maintaining ships, designing ships, building ships, 9 operation, ship maintenance, ship repair, ship 9 repairing. 10 design. And we had some hands-on experience and a 10 Q Now, you mentioned the Merchant Marine. 11 lot of classroom training along the way. 11 What is the Merchant Marine? 12 Q And how old were you when you entered 12 A It is the commercial world of ships. 13 the Marine Maritime Academy? Maine. I am sorry. 13 It is not the Navy and it is not the Coast Guard, 14 A I was 16 years old. 14 but it is the commercial world that carries the 15 Q Now, the Marine Maritime Academy, is 15 world's products: Oil, general cargo, bulk cargo 16 that a college-level academy? 16 like iron ore, issues like that. 17 A Yes, sir. 17 So it is ships that sail the high seas, 18 Q It is kind of like the Naval Academy or 18 big steam ships, certainly back in the '50s and 19 the Coast Guard Academy? 19 '60s, and plied in the world's trade primarily 20 A On a good deal smaller scale, yes, sir. 20 bringing cargo to and from the United States. 21 Q Okay. How old were you when you 21 Q Now, when you graduated from the Maine Court Reporting in Baltimore/Washington Evans Reporting Service 800-256-8410 47 (Pages 395 to 398) Over 20 years of award-winning service Official Trial Transcript 11/18/08 Page 399 Page 401 1 Maritime Academy with your marine engineering -- 1 Q And when you were sailing on these 2 your bachelor's in marine engineering, what did you 2 ships, what were you doing? 3 do immediately upon graduation? 3 A I was an engineer in charge of a watch. 4 A Two days later, I jumped on a -- jumped 4 And I, ultimately, worked my way up through the 5 on a Victory ship -- it is a 500 -- roughly 500-foot 5 examination process from third engineer to chief 6 steamship -- and went off to sea for about a year, 6 engineer. And I sailed primarily as second and 7 year and a half before I came home again. 7 first engineer in the Merchant Marine. 8 Q Now, when you graduated from the Marine 8 Q Now, what do engineers do on ships, I 9 Maritime Academy, when you graduated, did you 9 guess? 10 receive a commission of any type? 10 A Pretty much -- pretty much everything. 11 A Yes, sir. 11 A ship is like a city. And you have to make your 12 Q Okay. Could you explain to the members 12 own electricity. And you have to make your own 13 of the jury how you received the commission and what 13 water. 14 you received a commission in? 14 And you have to make sure that the 15 I guess, what is a commission? 15 propeller is always turning and the boilers are 16 A Yes. I received a commission as an 16 working properly. 17 ensign in the United States Naval Reserve. And the 17 And those -- and you have to -- 18 basis for that was the studying of naval science for 18 obviously, there is a lot of maintenance involved 19 three years, along with all of the marine 19 with something like that. And that's where the 20 engineering training that I received at the academy. 20 engineers come in to diagnose what maintenance is 21 Q Okay. So when you graduated from the 21 needed. And in my case, back in the '50s, it would Page 400 Page 402 1 Maine Maritime Academy, you also received a 1 be hands-on more often than not. 2 commission or you received a commission in the 2 Q And when you say hands-on, that means 3 United States Navy Reserve? 3 that you were working with the equipment that's in 4 A Yes, you do. 4 those engine spaces and things such as pumps, valves 5 Q Okay. And what you did was, you then 5 and those types of things? 6 kind of had a parallel track because you continued 6 A That is right. If there was a boiler 7 to serve in the Naval Reserve, but you also went on 7 problem, I would work on the boiler. If it was a 8 merchant ships? 8 valve problem, I would work on a valve. Or if it 9 A That is correct. And the parallel 9 was a pump problem, I would work on a pump. 10 track started probably in 1962. 10 Q Now, I want to go back just briefly 11 Q Now, when you graduated from the Maine 11 to -- I don't think we talked fully about your naval 12 Maritime Academy, just tell us generally what you 12 experience. 13 did and what experience you had on ships. 13 Can you hear me? 14 A I sailed in the Merchant Marine from 14 A Yes. Speak up a little bit. 15 1956 to 1962. And I would have sailed on freighters 15 Q Okay. I am trying. 16 that carried general cargo, ore carriers that 16 A The acoustics are not good for me. 17 carried bulk ore, oil tankers that carried crude oil 17 Q Yes. Well, just let me know. 18 or a finished oil product. 18 A Okay. 19 And that was -- primarily, those were 19 Q I want to go back to your United States 20 the three type of ships that I sailed on from 1956 20 Naval Reserve time. 21 to 1962. 21 A Yes. Court Reporting in Baltimore/Washington Evans Reporting Service 800-256-8410 48 (Pages 399 to 402) Over 20 years of award-winning service Official Trial Transcript 11/18/08 Page 403 Page 405 1 Q Could you kind of outline your career 1 being a captain of a ship? 2 in the U.S. Navy Reserves kind of what you did in 2 A That is right, but it is also the exact 3 what years and those types of things? 3 match-up to a full colonel in the Army. 4 A Yes. I started in the officer rank at 4 Q Okay. Now, do you hold any licenses 5 the bottom of the officer rank as an ensign. And I 5 relating to marine engineering? 6 became active in 1962 in the Naval Reserve. 6 A Yes, I do. I have an unlimited chief 7 And I was a repair officer for a number 7 engineer's license good for virtually any ship 8 of years. And we would take a team of people, 8 afloat in any ports of call. 9 sailors down to Newport, Rhode Island, which is a 9 Q What is an unlimited chief engineer 10 Navy yard, we would work on ships weekends, sometime 10 license? 11 Friday nights, Saturdays and Sundays, so I did that. 11 A It means I can sail as chief engineer 12 I also held a couple of commands. I 12 in anything afloat, that I've certainly got the 13 had a command that was a detachment of the Norfolk 13 credentials to do it. 14 Naval Shipyard, and I had command of a detachment of 14 Q And what does a chief engineer do on 15 Portsmouth Naval Shipyard up in New Hampshire and 15 board ship? 16 Maine. 16 A It is kind of where the buck stops. He 17 At the same time, I would typically do 17 has to make sure that the ship -- in the Merchant 18 up to 30 days a year active duty. There were 18 Marine, the ship is trading, the ship keeps 19 actually a few years that I did more than 30 days a 19 schedules, the ship doesn't suffer any particular 20 year active duty. 20 breakdowns, the ship is operated efficiently, 21 And sometime -- because I had some 21 effectively, economically and repairs are made on a Page 404 Page 406 1 skills that the Navy could utilize, sometime the 1 timely basis. And he administers the engineering 2 Navy would call me and ask me if I could go on 2 department to see that that gets done. 3 active duty and look at something in particular. 3 Q And how long have you held that 4 Q And so the Navy, at times, would call 4 license? 5 upon you to go on active duty and troubleshoot some 5 A I had a chief engineer's license in 6 issues that they would have? 6 1964. 7 A That is correct, sir. 7 Q And is that license still active today? 8 Q Now, how long did you serve in the 8 A It is. 9 Naval Reserve? 9 Q And is that license fairly difficult to 10 A I retired in 19 -- June 30, 1987. And 10 obtain? 11 I retired as a captain having rose through the 11 A Yes. It is a long examination process. 12 competitive ranks from ensign up to captain. 12 It used to run about a one-week exam. And I had to 13 Q And I used to be in the Army and I was 13 go through all four steps from third engineer to 14 a captain. There is a difference between a captain 14 second engineer to first engineer to chief engineer. 15 in the Army and a captain in the Navy, right? 15 I did that in a period of eight years. 16 A Quite a lot. 16 Q Okay. And you have talked about the 17 Q So in Army terms, that would be like a 17 different steps of engineers. Is it kind of common 18 full colonel? 18 that as folks on ships that they would have kind of 19 A That is right. 19 different steps as they progress up the ladder? 20 Q So in Navy terms, they are called 20 A That is right. And as you went up the 21 captains because that's kind of when you can start 21 ladder, your responsibility increased. Court Reporting in Baltimore/Washington Evans Reporting Service 800-256-8410 49 (Pages 403 to 406) Over 20 years of award-winning service Official Trial Transcript 11/18/08 Page 407 Page 409 1 Q Right. Now, how does that -- let's -- 1 became vice president of Bath Iron Works? 2 well, I will come back to that in a minute. 2 A The buck stopped. I certainly had 3 After -- did you become involved in 3 fiscal responsibility to try to see that we were a 4 shipbuilding at some point? 4 profitable operation, that we could stay busy, we 5 A Did I what, sir? 6 Q Did you become involved in 5 could keep our people busy and employed. 6 And I actually would still continue to 7 shipbuilding? 7 ride sea trials as the sea trial chief engineer 8 A Yes. In 1962, I joined a shipyard in 9 Bath, Maine called Bath Iron Works. 8 because I had the license. 9 Q What is a sea trial chief engineer? 10 Q And how did you end up at Bath Iron 10 A After you finish a new ship and it is 11 Works? 11 groomed and tested and retested and retested, you 12 A My wife thought it was a good idea if I 12 take it out to sea and put it through a very 13 came home once in a while. 13 torturous regimen. And you run full power and you 14 (Laughter ensued.) 14 do quick reversals to stern to try to stop the ship 15 A And I started out at the bottom of the 16 supervisory positions, the first-line supervisor, 15 as quick as you can and do a lot of testing of the 16 steering gear. 17 and I worked there for 33 years, 34 years. 18 Q And can you kind of give the members of 17 If there happens to be any weapons 18 aboard, we actually would fire missiles. The 19 the jury an outline of those 34 years? I know it is 19 shipyard would fire the missiles, with help 20 hard -- 34 years is hard to kind of crystallize, but 20 obviously from the government end. 21 what were you doing out of the Bath Iron Works and 21 We might shoot guns, but primarily it Page 408 Page 410 1 kind of how did you progress? 1 was to test the hull, the piping, the machinery to 2 A From 1962 to 1964, I was a First-line 2 see that the ship was in fact ready to go to sea on 3 supervisor spending virtually my entire time aboard 3 a full-time basis. 4 ships being built and ships being activated and 4 Q Now, are you a member of any marine 5 tested. 5 engineering societies? 6 All ships have to go through a very 6 A Yes. 7 rigorous testing program before they can actually go 7 Q Which ones and what are they? 8 on the high seas. 8 A I am currently a member of the Society 9 In 1964, I became a second, like, 9 of Naval Architects and Marine Engineers. When I 10 supervisor where I had some supervisors working for 10 was active, I was on the New England Executive 11 me and really doing the same. 11 Committee. I formerly was a member of the Society 12 In 1968, I became chief operating 12 of Naval Engineers. 13 engineer. That's sort of where the buck stops. I 13 And there is an organization that 14 had a lot of dealings with customers, whoever we 14 writes rules for building ships in the United States 15 were building or repairing ships with, and actually 15 called the American Bureau of Ships. 16 a lot of dealings with manufacturers at that point. 16 It used to be commercial ships, 17 And I stayed in that position until 17 although they do a lot of work for both the Navy and 18 summer of 1989 when I became vice president and 18 the Coast Guard also testing and evaluations. 19 general manager of the Bath Iron Works Portland ship 19 And I was on their engineering 20 repair Facility. 20 committee, and we actually would write the rules for 21 Q And what were your duties when you 21 shipbuilding in the United States. Court Reporting in Baltimore/Washington Evans Reporting Service 800-256-8410 50 (Pages 407 to 410) Over 20 years of award-winning service Official Trial Transcript 11/18/08 Page 411 Page 413 1 Q Now, this American Bureau of Ships 1 were under Treasury, but I am not sure of the years. 2 committee, how long did you serve on this committee? 2 And I would believe now that they are 3 A You serve -- you are nominated. It is 3 under Homeland Security, and maybe all of 4 nothing that you lobby for. You wait until somebody 4 Transportation is there. 5 asks you to join. It is a rather a blue-ribbon 5 Q Now, what kind of work did you do at 6 team. 6 Bath Iron Works with the United States Coast Guard? 7 Q Okay. 7 A Prior to my going to Portland, I took 8 A And we would only meet two or three 8 the lead on a large four-ship contract. It actually 9 times a year, but we would pass judgment and say, 9 turned out to be a 300 million-dollar contract to 10 this sounds like a reasonable change to regulations 10 refurbish four of the Coast -- the largest ships 11 or it doesn't. 11 that the Coast Guard had, so-called Hamilton class. 12 Q Now, in your work at Bath Iron Works 12 And I worked on that project for 13 for those 34 years, did you ever have any work with 13 actually six years and worked very, very closely 14 the United States Coast Guard? 14 with the Coast Guard's resident inspection team. 15 A Yes. 15 And in addition to that big 16 Q And could you explain to the members of 16 rehabilitation an reorganization program, we did a 17 the jury what the United States Coast Guard is and 17 little work on some of the so-called Campbell Ingham 18 kind of where it fits into the Armed Services? 18 class. 19 A Yes. The Coast Guard in peace times is 19 Some of the names escape me right now, 20 primarily a search-and-rescue group until we had 20 but it wasn't the Campbell and it wasn't the Ingham, 21 satellites. 21 but there were a couple of them that we worked up at Page 412 Page 414 1 They did weather patrols to warn 1 Bath in Portland. 2 shipping of pending storms, things of that nature. 2 Q Now, I guess that brings up a good 3 They do aids to navigation. 3 point, Captain Lowell. How many ships do you think 4 They administer the safety aspect of 4 you have worked on over the years that you have -- 5 the Merchant Marine, so they are very much involved 5 A Oh, probably a couple hundred, I had 6 in materials and issues like that. 6 some reason to be aboard or worked on or supervised 7 In time of war, I have heard of some of 7 some construction. I would say I have been on a 8 their larger ships that actually would go to Vietnam 8 couple hundred ships. 9 and maybe even World War II, for all I know. 9 This would range all the way from the 10 Korea, I believe there were some Coast 10 Navy to Coast Guard to coastal geometric survey, 11 Guard ships active off the Korean coast. Whether 11 Corps of Engineers and different commercial 12 they were using them for interdiction, whether they 12 companies. 13 were using them for gunnery chutes. I am not 13 Q Now, based on your experience for that 14 exactly sure, but that's my view of the Coast Guard. 14 six years of working with the United States Coast 15 Q And is the Coast Guard a separate 15 Guard, are you familiar with the duties of a 16 entity from the Navy, the Marines, the Air Force, 16 machinist's mate on Coast Guard ships? 17 the Army and those folks? 17 A Yes. I am familiar with machinist's 18 A Oh, very much so. Coast Guard, most of 18 mates on Coast Guard ships. I have watched them. I 19 my career, has come under the Department of 19 have worked with them. I have trained them. 20 Transportation. 20 Q Now -- and you understand this case is 21 I believe there was a period when they 21 about Mr. Blackmon? Court Reporting in Baltimore/Washington Evans Reporting Service 800-256-8410 51 (Pages 411 to 414) Over 20 years of award-winning service Official Trial Transcript 11/18/08 Page 415 Page 417 1 A Yes, sir. 1 record and he can rely on anything. 2 Q And you understand that he was a 2 THE COURT: What is it in any event? 3 machinist's mate for most of his career on Coast 3 MR. FROST: He is just go to say what a 4 Guard vessels? 4 machinist's mate does. That was his job. 5 A Well, he was a machinist's mate 5 MR. PARROTT: That's not the question. 6 extraordinaire. He was a master chief. And there 6 The question was, what did Mr. Blackmon do. 7 are very few of those that are ever selected. 7 THE COURT: That's fine. Stick to 8 Q And could you explain that to the 8 that. Let's get this show on the road. 9 members of the jury, what is a machinist's mate and 9 MR. FROST: Your Honor, I understand. 10 what is -- where was Mr.~Blackmon on that hierarchy? 10 I want to make my point, which is just because it 11 MR. PARROTT: Your Honor, I object. We 11 was excluded doesn't mean that an expert can't rely 12 are now in qualifications. We have not crossed and 12 upon it. 13 he has not been offered as an expert and I object to 13 THE COURT: Why is that true. 14 getting into the substantive testimony until he is 14 MR. PARROTT: You have to look at the 15 qualified. 15 interplay of Rule 5-702 and 5-703. 16 THE COURT: Do you want to offer him as 16 THE COURT: Pass me that book. 17 an expert? 17 MR. PARROTT: Under 5-702 -- I will let 18 MR. FROST: Your Honor, I would offer 18 you get to the page. 19 Captain Lowell as an expert in marine engineering, 19 Under 5-702, an expert's opinion has to 20 and this is probably -- I need -- yes. 20 have among other things a basis in fact. 21 MR. PARROTT: There is another issue I 21 Under 5-703, this Court has discretion Page 416 Page 418 1 would like to discuss if we can approach the bench. 1 to allow an expert to rely on certain things that 2 THE COURT: Come up. 2 may not be otherwise admissible. 3 Bear with us. 3 The best example I can give is, when we 4 (Discussion at the bench.) 4 talk about DNA testimony in a criminal case, 5 THE COURT: You were going to ask me 5 certainly an expert is allowed to talk about the 6 how we would ever finish this trial if we take a 6 development of DNA standards and that sort of 7 half hour to proffer every witness? 7 thing -- laboratory technique, that sort of thing, 8 MR. PARROTT: I only have a couple 8 but in this case, there is not going to be any 9 questions for him. And I may agree to it, but -- I 9 evidence as to Mr. Blackmon's work on a Goulds pump. 10 think he will qualify, but my objection, and I 10 THE COURT: His what? 11 forgot to raise it before the witness took the 11 MR. PARROTT: There is not going to be 12 stand, is we had some discussions about use of the 12 any evidence testimony from Mr. Blackmon that he 13 discovery deposition and whether an expert under 13 ever worked on a Goulds pump. 14 Rule 5-702 or 5-703 ought to be able to rely on 14 And if there is not going to be any 15 something that is not going to come into evidence. 15 testimony as to what he specifically did on pumps in 16 At this point, I would ask that Your 16 his admissible, de-bene-esse testimony, they ought 17 Honor instruct counsel not to ask this witness 17 not to be able to get it in through this expert. 18 questions about the discovery deposition or at least 18 THE COURT: Is he going to testify to 19 materials that could only be found in the discovery 19 that or just explain what the man would have done in 20 deposition. 20 this role? 21 MR. FROST: They are in his service 21 MR. FROST: He will say what a Court Reporting in Baltimore/Washington Evans Reporting Service 800-256-8410 52 (Pages 415 to 418) Over 20 years of award-winning service Official Trial Transcript 11/18/08 Page 419 Page 421 1 machinist's mate would have done and these parts 1 Q Okay. 2 were in his work area and, as a machinist's mate, he 2 A So that every single piece of every 3 would have worked on them. 3 pump, every compressor, every turbine is shown on 4 He is not going to say that -- 4 that arrangement drawing. 5 MR. PARROTT: But the question 5 Q And the correspondence and things you 6 included, what did Mr. Blackmon do. And I am afraid 6 got mostly came from a Mr.~McCaffery; is that fair? 7 we are now going to start allowing him to read from 7 A That is correct, sir. 8 the discovery deposition, which I am trying to 8 Q All right. You know Mr.~McCaffery, 9 prevent. 9 sir, don't you? 10 MR. FROST: I have instructed him not 10 A I know who he is. 11 to do that. 11 Q Now, sometimes when you get involved in 12 THE COURT: Do you have any voir dire 12 these cases you go to the National Archives and do 13 on his expertise? 13 independent research, correct? 14 MR. PARROTT: Just a couple questions. 14 MR. FROST: Your Honor. 15 THE COURT: Go ahead. 15 A Sometimes, yes, sir. 16 (In open court.) 16 MR. FROST: This has nothing to do -- 17 THE COURT: You can question the 17 THE COURT: What does this have to do 18 witness on his expert credentials for the defendant 18 with -- 19 voir dire. 19 MR. PARROTT: I am asking him if he is 20 VOIR DIRE EXAMINATION 20 qualified to give the opinion. 21 BY MR. PARROTT: 21 THE COURT: He has not offered an Page 420 Page 422 1 Q Captain Lowell. Good afternoon. My 1 opinion yet. Go ahead. Finish the sentence. 2 name is Steve Parrott. We met once before, didn't 2 BY MR. PARROTT: 3 we? 3 Q Did you go to the National Archives in 4 A Yes, sir. 4 connection with this case? 5 Q I am going to stand up so I am 5 A My answer is no, but I want to qualify 6 projecting my voice to you. 6 that. 7 A And you are doing a good job, sir. 7 Q Okay. 8 Q Just so it is clear, Captain, you have 8 A And I did work an Owasco case six, 9 never been on an Owasco class cutter; is that right? 9 seven years ago, and I do have and did have at the 10 A That is correct. 10 deposition that we gave a list of all of the 11 Q And you have not seen a full set of 11 equipment on the Owasco class ships. 12 plans for a Owasco class cutter, have you? 12 Q Okay. 13 A I have seen a lot of correspondence, a 13 A Yes. 14 ton of correspondence, and I have seen a few plans. 14 Q All right. We talked about that 15 Q All right. You have not seen the 15 earlier? 16 entire plans, have you? 16 A Yes. 17 A No, but I have seen an arrangement that 17 Q Now, a term that has been used in this 18 shows exactly where everything is. 18 case already is industrial hygienist. You are not 19 Q Right. 19 an industrial hygienist? 20 A In all the machinery, I have looked at 20 A No, sir. 21 arrangement plans. 21 Q Okay. And currently you are Court Reporting in Baltimore/Washington Evans Reporting Service 800-256-8410 53 (Pages 419 to 422) Over 20 years of award-winning service Official Trial Transcript 11/18/08 Page 423 Page 425 1 semi-retired, correct? 1 speak up as best I can. 2 A That is correct. 2 A Super. 3 Q What you do nowadays, you do consulting 3 Q We were talking about your experience 4 work in connection with litigation, correct? 4 with the United States Coast Guard and, in 5 A Yes, sir. 5 particular, machinist's mates such as Mr. Blackmon. 6 Q And your first case on behalf of 6 Do you remember that? 7 plaintiffs in an asbestos case was for the Waters & 7 A Yes, sir. 8 Kraus firm; is that correct? 8 Q Okay. Now, what does -- a machinist's 9 A I am not sure. I would say probably 9 mate in the United States Coast Guard, what do they 10 not. I probably did one up in Maine, but close 10 do? 11 enough. 11 A Let me start by saying, primarily, the 12 Q All right. You were never a Coast 12 keepers of machinery are two teams. 13 Guard inspector, correct? 13 Q Well -- 14 A No, but I would work with Coast Guard 14 A And one team would be the machinist's 15 inspectors on a daily basis. 15 mates. And I will tell you what it is that they 16 Q All right. And you have been doing 16 keep. 17 that -- you started doing that in 1953, correct? 17 The other team would be the boiler 18 A More in 1968, but, yes, I have seen the 18 tenders, BTs, called. And the boiler tenders take 19 Coast Guard at work as an inspection team. 19 care of boilers and fuel oil and feed pumps and 20 Q Okay. And they have had resident 20 forced draft blowers. 21 inspectors present at the Bath Shipyard when you 21 The machinist's mates take care of Page 424 Page 426 1 worked there, correct? 1 everything else. 2 A Oh, yes. 2 Q Okay. 3 Q And at the Bath Shipyard, you would 3 A That would include all the saltwater 4 have occasion to see repair work done on not only 4 pumps, all of the pumps, except those few that I 5 Coast Guard ships but Navy ships and commercial 5 just mentioned. 6 ships, correct? 6 And they would have the responsibility 7 A That is right. 7 for the bulk of the steam lines, for the vast 8 Q All right. 8 majority of the pumps and for the turbines that 9 MR. PARROTT: All right, Your Honor. 9 drive the propeller, for the turbine generators that 10 Those are my questions for this witness. 10 make electricity, for the distilling plant that 11 THE COURT: All right. He will be 11 makes fresh water. 12 received as an expert in the areas recited. 12 Q Now, since you are the first witness, 13 What that means is, he can give 13 Captain Lowell, we have not had anybody kind of 14 opinions within the area of his expertise. The 14 explain what the inside of a ship I guess looks 15 weight to be attached to those opinions is entirely 15 like. 16 up to you. 16 And there is different parts of a ship, 17 You may proceed. 17 I guess. Let's start there, right? 18 MR. FROST: Thank you, Your Honor. 18 A Yes, sir. 19 DIRECT EXAMINATION RESUMED 19 Q And how many different parts are there 20 BY MR. FROST: 20 on a ship? 21 Q Okay. Captain Lowell, I am going to 21 A Well, there may be as many as 100 Court Reporting in Baltimore/Washington Evans Reporting Service 800-256-8410 54 (Pages 423 to 426) Over 20 years of award-winning service Official Trial Transcript 11/18/08 Page 427 Page 429 1 compartments. Some may be berthing, some may be 1 wide? 2 cooking facility, some may be weapons oriented. 2 A Forty-three feet wide. 3 Q And the parts we are going to focus in 3 Q Okay. So kind of maybe if we half the 4 on this trial are the parts where machinist's mates 4 courtroom in half maybe? 5 would be, correct? 5 A Your judgment on 43 feet is probably as 6 A Yes, sir. 6 good as mine, but, yeah, I would say it is a little 7 Q And how -- where is this area and how 7 bigger than that. 8 big is this area that the machinist's mates are in 8 Q Okay. And then it is how many feet 9 on a ship? 9 across? 10 A Okay. On the ships that Master Chief 10 A About 43 foot across and about 35 feet 11 Blackmon sailed on was primarily the so-called 11 lengthwise. 12 Owasco class. And the machinery space would go from 12 Q Okay. 13 the very bottom of the ship and might run all the 13 A Forward to aft. 14 way up to the main deck, but it would start right 14 Q And then it would just kind of divide 15 down on the very bottom. 15 over and that would be kind of a square area? 16 And the Owasco was a 255-foot ship, and 16 A Rectangular area, close to a square. 17 so the width of the machinery space would have been 17 Q Okay. 18 about 43 feet. The length of the machinery space 18 THE COURT: Just for reference, from 19 was about 35 feet. And the there would be an upper 19 where he sits to the corner of the room is 33 feet. 20 level and a lower level. 20 MR. FROST: Okay. 21 And in that upper and lower level was a 21 THE COURT: According to this chart Page 428 Page 430 1 whole big pile of machinery. There would be pumps, 1 that I have. 2 valves, turbines for driving the propeller, turbine 2 BY MR. FROST: 3 generators for making electricity. 3 Q Okay. But it is not a big area, I 4 We have to have as an example Baltimore 4 guess, on a ship? 5 Water Company. We have to have a water company on a 5 A Oh, it is very tight. 6 ship that keeps pressure at the spigots and showers 6 Q Okay. 7 at all times. 7 A Very tight, filled with equipment. 8 We have to be ready to fight a fire, so 8 Q And this area that is filled with 9 we have to have fire pumps. So I think that is the 9 equipment, is this a machinist's mate's -- I guess 10 picture that I will leave you with. 10 in the military, in the Army, we call it his duty 11 Q Okay. So the machinery space that he 11 station? 12 is in is basically two levels. It is like a 12 A A machinist's mate is always a part of 13 two-story? 13 the engineering department, always. 14 A And the top level may even be as much 14 Q Okay. Could you explain what the 15 as a level and a half. It is entirely possible. 15 engineering department is? 16 Q Okay. So it is sort of about as big as 16 A The engineering department has charge 17 this room, tall-wise, maybe even a little bigger? 17 of the engine room. And his workstation would be to 18 A Yes. Counting the two levels, yeah, it 18 spend almost his entire time right down in the 19 is going to be as tall as this room. I would say 19 machinery spaces when he was at work. 20 close to it. 20 Q And these -- what would he be doing 21 Q Okay. Then it is going to be 40 feet 21 down there? What does a machinist's mate do down Court Reporting in Baltimore/Washington Evans Reporting Service 800-256-8410 55 (Pages 427 to 430) Over 20 years of award-winning service Official Trial Transcript 11/18/08 Page 431 Page 433 1 there? 1 Q Now, you have reviewed at my request 2 A Depending on the level that he was 2 the documents in this case, correct? 3 at -- you know, he started at the bottom and he rose 3 A Yes, sir. 4 to the top. 4 Q And you have reviewed some deposition 5 But as he climbed up, he stood watches. 5 testimony and some military records and some other 6 He learned to do maintenance. He maintained valves. 6 things? 7 He maintained pumps. He maintained pipes if they 7 A Yes, sir. 8 needed maintenance. He would have worked on 8 Q Okay. Now, can you tell the members of 9 turbines if there were problems with turbines. 9 the jury what ships Mr. Blackmon would have served 10 And until he made master chief, he was 10 on? 11 doing a lot of hands-on. That's the nature of the 11 A Yes. There were, I believe, 13 of 12 Coast Guard. My experience with the Coast Guard is 12 these ships, all identical, cookie cutters. And he 13 that the enlisted people were very strong and had a 13 served on Mendota, he served on the Androscoggin and 14 real can-do attitude. 14 he served on the Winnebago. 15 Q Now, this day-to-day working with the 15 And at some point, I believe that 16 machinery in his engine space, is that -- what is a 16 Master Chief Blackmon said that he had 13 or 14 17 machinist's mate looking for when he is down in that 17 years service on those three ships, that class of 18 engine space and checking on things? 18 ship. 19 A He is looking at -- he is looking at 19 So the vast majority of his time in the 20 performance. He is saying, are we going as fast as 20 Coast Guard was spent on these so-called Owasco 21 we should be. Are we making as much electricity as 21 class. That's the first of any class, but it was on Page 432 Page 434 1 we should be. 1 the Mendota, Androscoggin and Winnebago. 2 He is watching pump performance. If 2 Q And he also served on the Ingham and 3 pump pressures fall off, he has to make some kind of 3 the Violet besides that? 4 decision, what am I going to do about this. The 4 A In relatively short periods of time. 5 pump is no longer serving the purpose it was 5 He was on the Ingham, which is a little bigger 6 intended it serve. So he may have to maintain that, 6 steamship. And he indicated he was there a year or 7 pull it apart. 7 less. 8 He is watching for external leaks, 8 And he was on an old -- much older ship 9 steam leaks on flanges, steam leaks on turbine 9 that had a reciprocating steam engine. And that was 10 joints, water leaks on flanges, water leaks on 10 built way back in the '20s and didn't seem to have a 11 pumps. He is watching all of that. 11 lot of documentation on that. 12 And he is going to eventually decide, 12 Q Now, you mentioned a couple times the 13 if he has a problem, what is it that he needs to do 13 Owasco class of cutters. Could you explain what a 14 to fix that problem and how urgent it is. And he, 14 class of ship is? 15 along with maybe the chief engineer, are going to 15 A I will do that by using an analogy on 16 make decisions like that. 16 automobiles. And a Ford Mustang -- in any given 17 Q And if a decision is made that a pump 17 year, a lot of Ford Mustangs are built. 18 or a valve or any of the machinery in an engine 18 And while the color of the paint may 19 space needs to be worked on, who are the folks that 19 change, the basic chassis of that car is going to 20 are going to do that? 20 stay exactly the same. 21 A Machinist's mates. 21 And that was true with these 13 ships. Court Reporting in Baltimore/Washington Evans Reporting Service 800-256-8410 56 (Pages 431 to 434) Over 20 years of award-winning service Official Trial Transcript 11/18/08 Page 435 Page 437 1 They used one set of plans. You would not develop a 1 done over the years and have vast experience in 2 complete set of plans for each of these ships. It 2 reading and reviewing those? 3 was one set of plans. 3 A Yes, particularly drawings and 4 And 11 of these ships were built in a 4 technical manuals. 5 commercial yard on the West Coast. Two of them were 5 Q And why do you have that expertise? 6 built here at Curtis Bay at the Coast Guard yard, 6 A Well, if something goes wrong, that's 7 but they all used the same plans, all had the same 7 the first thing I turn to is a technical manual to 8 basic equipment. 8 see if I could learn something from the manual. 9 Q So these Owasco class cutters, the ones 9 In the manual would be pictures of the 10 that Mr. Blackmon spent the majority of his time on 10 equipment, piece numbers. And oftentimes there is a 11 for that 13 to 14 years, those were either built at 11 section on troubleshooting. And it said, if that 12 Coast Guard shipyards or other shipyards at Coast 12 happens, do this or replace this part if it gets 13 Guard direction? 13 worn. 14 A There was one other shipyard in Los 14 So it becomes a very, very handy tool 15 Angeles, Western Pipe, that built the other 11. 15 for the operator or the maintainer, the machinist's 16 Q Now, the Winnebago, the Androscoggin 16 mates to use aboard ship. 17 and the Mendota, prior to their names, they have a 17 MR. FROST: Your Honor, we are now 18 symbol that is -- it says, USCGC. 18 going to put some things up that I have previously 19 Are you familiar with that? 19 shown to counsel on the screen. 20 A Yes. Yes. 20 THE WITNESS: Do you mind, sir, if I 21 Q What is that? 21 stand up and look and then turn? Page 436 Page 438 1 A United States Coast Guard Cutter. 1 (Discussion off the record.) 2 Q And what is the significance of that 2 MR. FROST: Captain Lowell you are 3 designation, United States Coast Guard Cutter? 3 going to have to speak up because of the microphone. 4 A Well, I think to do search and rescue 4 THE COURT: The mike won't hear, but -- 5 you eventually have to be a cutter of some 5 THE WITNESS: My apologies. I asked if 6 interdiction, although you could do interdiction 6 it was all right if I stood up and faced the screen 7 with smaller ships, but when you see the word 7 and then turned around and then faced the jury. 8 "cutter," you know it is one of the Coast Guard's 8 THE COURT: Just keep your voice up 9 primary ships, one of their bigger ships. They have 9 though. 10 a lot of small boats. 10 THE WITNESS: Thank you, sir. 11 Q Now, in your review of the materials in 11 THE COURT: As we said, the acoustics 12 this case, have you been able to review documents 12 are not that outstanding. 13 from the National Archives along with documents from 13 THE WITNESS: What, sir? 14 the manufacturers of equipment? 14 THE COURT: The acoustics are not so 15 A Yes, I have. 15 great in here. It is a big room. 16 Q All right. And throughout your career 16 BY MR. FROST: 17 as a shipbuilder, did you become familiar with the 17 Q Captain Lowell, I will kind of cut to 18 various drawings and diagrams and things like that 18 the chase now in regards to these Owasco class 19 that relate to ships? 19 cutters, and you and I are going to talk, when we 20 A Sure. 20 talk about Goulds Pumps, only about those Owasco 21 Q And is that something that you have 21 class cutters that Mr. Blackmon spent most of his Court Reporting in Baltimore/Washington Evans Reporting Service 800-256-8410 57 (Pages 435 to 438) Over 20 years of award-winning service Official Trial Transcript 11/18/08 Page 439 Page 441 1 time on, correct? 1 Q Well, I do. It wasn't working well for 2 A Yes, sir. 2 me, but I don't think you can see it. 3 Q And that's because we have no 3 (Discussion off the record.) 4 documentation on those other two ships? 4 BY MR. FROST: 5 A That is correct. We do for those three 5 Q And this picture that I have up there 6 ships. 6 on the screen, is this a type of pump that we would 7 Q Okay. Now, in regards to Goulds Pumps, 7 have been talking about that Mr. Blackmon would have 8 you go to -- I have up on the screen the picture of 8 had on those Owasco class ships? 9 the Mendota, the Androscoggin and the -- 9 A Yes, it is. 10 A Violet. 10 Q And this type of pump, are these -- who 11 Q No, the Winnebago. 11 is responsible for the maintenance of these pumps on 12 A All right. 12 a ship? 13 Q Like the RV. And these are the types 13 A In the case of the Goulds pumps that we 14 of ships that we are talking about, correct? 14 have identified, we know the service they were in, 15 A Yes, sir. 15 and the machinist's mates were responsible for 16 Q Okay. Now, I want to talk to you about 16 virtually all 12 of them. 17 your review of the materials in this case. You 17 Q Okay. Now, the pump that we have up 18 reviewed documents from the National Archives and 18 there, could you just kind of generally explain how 19 you have reviewed documents produced by the 19 that pump works and what it does? 20 defendants in this case and you have reviewed 20 A Yes, I can. 21 Mr. Blackmon's deposition in formulating your 21 Q And -- Page 440 Page 442 1 opinions in this case? 1 A This is motor right here. You see the 2 A I have. 2 feet that bolts down to a foundation. There would 3 Q And in review of those materials, did 3 be four points that that motor would bolt down. 4 you find Goulds Pumps as certain pumps that were on 4 That is the shaft in there that is 5 those Owasco class ships? 5 coming out of the motor going through a packing 6 A Yes, I did. 6 gland. That is the pump itself. All this is the 7 Q And when we say "on the Owasco class 7 pump. 8 ships" we are talking about all three of the ships 8 The pump is going to have a cable going 9 that Mr. Blackmon would have served on? 9 to it, obviously, to make the motor work. This is 10 A That is right. All 13 of those ships 10 going to be piped up. 11 were the same -- same equipment. 11 This would be the suction of the pump 12 Q Okay. Now, I have a picture that was 12 right here. There is going to be a mating flange 13 produced in discovery in this case of what is called 13 hooked onto that, and it is going to be -- if it is 14 Close-Cupled Centrifugal Pumps by Goulds. 14 a fire pump, it is going to take sea suction. 15 Do you see that? 15 So there is going to be a line -- a 16 A I sure do. 16 pipeline from that connection going down through the 17 Q Now, would this picture enable you to 17 hull of the ship so that it can get sea water, and 18 explain to the members of the jury kind of generally 18 that would be as an example a fire pump. 19 what a pump is and how it works? 19 The pump is going to spin around 20 A Yes. If I had a -- you don't have an 20 centrifugally; hence, the word "centrifugal," 21 electronic pointer? 21 inferring that it is going to be spinning. Court Reporting in Baltimore/Washington Evans Reporting Service 800-256-8410 58 (Pages 439 to 442) Over 20 years of award-winning service Official Trial Transcript 11/18/08 Page 443 Page 445 1 And it is going to build pressure, and 1 bigger than the flange is. You can see that. It is 2 it is going to come out that flange there. And that 2 going to be a good deal bigger than the flange is. 3 flange is going to be hooked up to a pipe. 3 Q Even though we are using this 4 There will be a mating flange hooked 4 particular pump, I want to talk generally about 5 onto that, and it will bolt up. And that pipeline 5 these Goulds pumps that Mr. Blackmon -- were in 6 is going to discharge into the fire main. 6 Mr. Blackmon's engine space. 7 And as an example, you would use this 7 The flanges, the flange areas, how big 8 pump to fight a fire with if you needed large 8 were those areas where they hooked into the pipe? 9 volumes of water. 9 A I would say the outside diameter of the 10 Q Okay. So, basically, what we have up 10 gasket would be six inches. 11 there is a piece of equipment that has pipes running 11 Q Okay. 12 into it and pipes running out of it? 12 A On the two flanges, which probably are 13 A Always going to have in and out. You 13 the same size or close to it. 14 always have to have that. 14 Q And then that bigger area, how big 15 Q And that in and out, when those pieces 15 would that be? 16 of metal go up against each other, I am assuming the 16 A I looked at the fire pump, and I think 17 piping is going to be some type of metal? 17 I got 11 and a half inches in outside diameter. 18 A Metal to metal with a gasket between. 18 Q Okay. So the diameter of that gasket, 19 Q That was my question. In between the 19 which is bigger than the ones going to the pipe, 20 metal to metal, is that where the gaskets fit in? 20 that is about the size of maybe a medium pizza? 21 A Metal to metal is not going to be 21 A Yes, a 12-inch pizza. Page 444 Page 446 1 tight, so you have to have something with a little 1 Q Okay. And that's a cylindrical gasket? 2 resiliency, so you would have a gasket there. 2 A Yes, sir, circular. 3 Q So on the two spots where the pipes go 3 Q Now, with regards to all of the pumps 4 in, there is going to be gaskets there? 4 that we are going to discuss in a minute, because we 5 A Yes. 6 Q And then are there other gaskets on 5 are going to go through the different pumps with you 6 in regards to all of these Goulds pumps that were on 7 those types of pumps? 7 these Owasco class ships, would those pumps have 8 A Yes. 8 asbestos gaskets inside them? 9 Q Where are they? 9 A Yes. 10 A You have to be able to take this pump 10 Q Now, when we are talking about these 11 apart and inspect the rotating element inside and 11 flanges where the pipes come in, who designs that 12 maybe change some parts out if they wear. So in 12 flange? 13 order to get it apart -- and it is going to be 13 A It is part of the pump. 14 difficult, but there is a big bolted flange. That's 14 Q Okay. So who designs it? 15 a bolthead right there. 15 A The pump manufacturer. 16 And there is a bolt circle all around 16 Q Okay. Now, once it is designed by the 17 that flange -- not the pipe flange, but the pump 17 pump manufacturer, what does that tell an individual 18 flange. And that would have a gasket in there. 18 who is going to install that pump? 19 Q Okay. Now, that looks to be a bigger 19 A Well, it is a flush-mounted -- it is a 20 area? 20 flush-mounted flange, so it tells you it is going to 21 A Yes. It is certainly going to be 21 have a sheet asbestos gasket to seal it off. Court Reporting in Baltimore/Washington Evans Reporting Service 800-256-8410 59 (Pages 443 to 446) Over 20 years of award-winning service Official Trial Transcript 11/18/08 Page 447 Page 449 1 Q Now, besides those three gaskets that 1 them, kind of tell them generally what it does. 2 we have just talked about, is there any other 2 A I will try to give you a little detail, 3 asbestos inside the pump? 3 but not get too lengthy. 4 A Yes. 4 There is a main motor driving the 5 Q Where is that? 5 propeller. It actually is a turbine that drives a 6 A It's pretty difficult to see, but there 6 generator that drives a motor and the motor has to 7 is the shaft coming out of the motor and then the 7 be cooled. 8 shaft has to go into the pump housing. 8 And there is a saltwater main-motor 9 This pump is going to be flooded with 9 air-cooling circ pump, saltwater, that is going to 10 sea water, and it is actually going to build up 10 help cool that motor. There would be one of those. 11 pressure. 11 Distiller freshwater pump. We have to 12 And, naturally, unless you had some 12 make freshwater at see, and we do it with a 13 kind of seal, that water would come cascading out 13 distiller, sometime called an evaporator. And that 14 where the shaft goes into the pump housing. 14 would be pumping fresh water. 15 So in order to seal that, there is 15 This would be a small diesel fuel oil 16 packing, rings of packing in that gland that is 16 hand pump which would be portable. And you would 17 built into the forward end of the pump. 17 move it from location to location if you wanted to 18 And it goes around the shaft and inside 18 pump out a barrel or pump a barrel of something in. 19 like a stuffing tube, and that would be asbestos. 19 There are three fire pumps on the ship. 20 Q And was that true for all of the pumps 20 All of these would be pretty large pumps. They are 21 that we are going to talk about on these -- Goulds 21 there for just what the term implies, to fight fire. Page 448 Page 450 1 pumps on these Owasco class ships that would have 1 Q And those are the ones we were talking 2 been in his machine space? 2 about earlier that could be up to 600 pounds? 3 A Yes, sir. 3 A Yes, sir. 4 Q Now, these pumps, how big can these 4 Freshwater transfer pump, you have a 5 things be? 5 lot of small tanks on the ship and you have to 6 A I looked at the fire pump and it looked 6 transfer fresh water from time to time, and that's 7 like it weighed over 600 pounds. The other pumps 7 why you have those. 8 probably were smaller, but I did pick a number up of 8 We need fresh water for drinking 9 620 on the fire pump. 9 purposes, and we need fresh, good, distilled water 10 Q Where did you pick that up from? 10 for the boilers. 11 A Off a good plan. 11 Freshwater pumps, just like I said, 12 Q Now, let's go, I guess, to specifically 12 Baltimore Water District, you have to have the same 13 what you found in reviewing the documents in this 13 thing aboard ship. 14 case as to the actual Goulds pumps on these Owasco 14 When you turn on the shower, you expect 15 class ships, the three that Mr. Blackmon served 15 to get fresh water and hopefully warm. And it is a 16 upon. 16 system that is totally and completely pressurized 17 Would you tell the members of the jury 17 and it is there to serve the needs of the sailor. 18 what Goulds pumps were actually on those three 18 Sanitary pumps would be the pumps that 19 ships? 19 provided water to urinals and commodes. 20 A Yes. 20 There may have been some other uses, 21 Q And could you just, as you are telling 21 maybe to flush out the garbage grinder, something Court Reporting in Baltimore/Washington Evans Reporting Service 800-256-8410 60 (Pages 447 to 450) Over 20 years of award-winning service Official Trial Transcript 11/18/08 Page 451 Page 453 1 along that line. I believe those sanitary pumps 1 falling off, it is time to open the pump up. 2 were saltwater too. 2 Q Now, you mentioned labels. What kind 3 Q Now, you mentioned that there are some 3 of labels are on these pumps? 4 freshwater and some saltwater pumps. Why is that 4 A Well, that would be typically a 5 important when you are evaluating pumps? 5 metallic label plate that may be rivetted to the 6 A Salt water is a fairly hostile 6 pump somewhere. 7 commodity. It is a lot easier to pump fresh water 7 Q Okay. So they would actually have on 8 over a period of time than to pump salt water 8 these pumps a metal plate rivetted to it that said 9 because salt water has -- by its very nature, it is 9 "Goulds Pumps" or whatever pump it was? 10 corrosive. 10 A That is right. It would give you the 11 And saltwater pumps always have had a 11 name of the manufacturer and give you the details. 12 propensity to need more maintenance than, say, 12 Very often, a pump like that, we looked at the 13 perhaps a freshwater pump. 13 previous picture with the motor, and sometime I have 14 Q And it looks like, according to my 14 seen those labels right on the motor housing, but it 15 count, that at least six of those pumps -- six of 15 can vary. 16 the 12 are saltwater pumps; is that right? 16 Q Now, the maintenance on these pumps, 17 A That is right. 17 when you conduct this maintenance, what happens with 18 Q So at least half of those are saltwater 18 the gaskets and packing? 19 pumps that would require more maintenance over time? 19 A Well, you always -- if you have a pump 20 A More than your typical freshwater pump, 20 apart, you always change -- you always replace the 21 but they -- all pumps are designed to wear. There 21 gaskets. Page 452 Page 454 1 are actually pieces inside that are designed to wear 1 What you don't want to do is try to cut 2 out so that you can change them without changing out 2 corners and save a gasket and then put it back 3 the whole pump. 3 together and have it leak. So it is a heck of a lot 4 Q And I guess since you have mentioned 4 less expensive to put new gaskets in. 5 that, let's go ahead and talk about that. What is 5 And you always -- I can think of no 6 the normal maintenance on these types of pumps? 6 good reason that you would ever try to save a gasket 7 A There is probably no answer to that. 7 like that on a pump. You would replace it. And if 8 It depends on an awful lot of factors. You could 8 you got the pump apart, you would replace the 9 wind up packing a pump every month. That would not 9 packing. 10 surprise me. 10 Q Now, so basically, anytime you open up 11 If the pump is well balanced and the 11 a pump, you are going to replace the gaskets? 12 bearings are good, you might go three months between 12 A Yes, sir. 13 packings. But for me to say -- to give you any 13 Q Okay. 14 normal number, I would be reluctant to do that. 14 A Not necessarily all, if you left it in 15 And in opening them up, you open a pump 15 place. You would always replace the larger end 16 like that up when you see its performance is 16 housing gasket, and you may replace the pipeline 17 deteriorating; in other words, the pump doesn't 17 gaskets if you were to take the pipe -- if you take 18 build up the pressure that it was designed to do. 18 the pump out and put it in the machine shop or put 19 And you know, because there are labels 19 it on a bench, then you change all three gaskets. 20 on these pumps, you know what basically the 20 Q Okay. So if you are doing kind of what 21 discharge pressure should be. If you see that 21 I guess I would call routine maintenance on the ship Court Reporting in Baltimore/Washington Evans Reporting Service 800-256-8410 61 (Pages 451 to 454) Over 20 years of award-winning service Official Trial Transcript 11/18/08 Page 455 Page 457 1 and you take the pump apart, you are going to 1 A Yes. 2 replace the two gaskets on the flanges; is that 2 Q What can you tell the jury to kind of 3 right? 3 give them an idea of where these different pumps 4 A That is right. 4 are? Are they all in one area or where are they? 5 Q No matter what? 5 A No. They are throughout that machinery 6 A Well, if you take the pump out and try 6 space: Upper level, lower level, left-hand side of 7 to put it on a workbench -- and that is typically 7 the ship, right-hand side of the ship. 8 where you want to work on it, where you have 8 As an example, the sanitary pumps are 9 lighting and tools, a vice that holds pieces. 9 on the upper level. Fire pumps are on the lower 10 Q And these gaskets and the packing in a 10 level. Main motor cooling is lower level. 11 pump, are those materials designed to wear out? 11 Distiller freshwater, I believe, was lower level. 12 A Oh, sure. 12 Diesel hand pumps, wherever you have it. And I 13 Q Why is that? 13 believe the freshwater pumps were on the upper 14 A Sure. Packing is designed to wear. 14 levels level. 15 You know, you have the shaft spinning around and you 15 So it had a good -- within that 16 have this packing gripping the shaft and it is going 16 machinery space, that 43-foot wide, 35-foot long 17 to wear out. 17 machinery space, you had Goulds pumps. Bottom of 18 Q And is that by design that it wears 18 the ship, upper level, left-hand side, right-hand 19 out? 19 side. It was a geographic disbursal. 20 A It's certainly by design. 20 Q And as an expert in machine -- marine 21 Q And who designs these pumps? 21 engineering, what does that kind of tell you? Page 456 Page 458 1 A Well, it is the manufacturer who 1 A It tells you, it is a very tight spot, 2 designs the pumps. It is his drawings. 2 and anybody working in there certainly could -- 3 Q And so, in fact, in this case, the 3 would in fact come in contact, in close proximity to 4 manufacturer that would be Goulds Pumps? 4 Goulds pumps. 5 A Yes. 5 Q Now, these Goulds pumps that the 6 Q Okay. Now, since we were talking about 6 machinist's mates -- they are the ones responsible 7 packing, have you ever heard of metallic packing? 7 for these pumps? 8 A I have heard of metallic, and I have 8 A Every one of those pumps belong to the 9 heard of plastic metallic in the same -- same 9 machinist's mates. 10 breath. 10 Q And when you say "belong to," that 11 Q And based on your review of documents 11 means what? 12 and your training, background and experience, do you 12 A They are responsible for the 13 believe metallic packing contains asbestos? 13 maintenance. 14 A Metallic packing, you have to 14 Q So if something happens with those 15 understand what it is. It is a thin film of lead on 15 particular pumps and they need to be fixed or 16 the outside, very thin film of lead, but it has an 16 changed or anything that goes on with those pumps, 17 asbestos core. 17 the machinist's mate is the person on the ship to 18 Q Now, I want to go back to the list of 18 work on them? 19 the pumps. We talked about the engine space and 19 A That is right. 20 that there is a lot of -- it is a small area, but 20 Q Now, did you also review -- there are 21 there is different things going on there, right? 21 other pumps in the machinery space other than Goulds Court Reporting in Baltimore/Washington Evans Reporting Service 800-256-8410 62 (Pages 455 to 458) Over 20 years of award-winning service Official Trial Transcript 11/18/08 Page 459 Page 461 1 pumps? 1 interaction in that? 2 A That is right. 2 A I didn't see any interaction. I saw 3 Q Because there is other pumps that do 3 the Coast Guard firmly in place, and they were the 4 other services? 4 ones approving the plans. 5 A Sure. 5 Q Now, when the machinist's mate is 6 Q Did you have an opportunity on these 6 looking at a pump and he has a pump that is not 7 Owasco class ships to look at the total number of 7 working to whatever the specifications are, how does 8 pumps in that engine space that Mr. Blackmon was in? 8 he know what specifications they are and -- 9 A Yes. 9 A With any given pump, you are going to 10 Q How many were there? 10 have gauges so that you use gauges and thermometers 11 A That list -- that list that I got at 11 so that you can monitor the performance of the pump. 12 the Archives a few years back spells out the exact 12 And, also, each pump is going to have 13 number of pumps, and there were 40 pumps on the 13 its own technical manual, and the data would be in 14 Owasco class -- a total of 40. 14 the technical manual. You would find it on the 15 (Siren interruption.) 15 plans or perhaps a data sheet within the manual. 16 MR. FROST: Hold it. 16 Q Now, these pumps, there were a lot of 17 THE REPORTER: Hold it. 17 different folks that made pumps that were on ships? 18 BY MR. FROST: 18 A Yes. 19 Q Okay. We will both get you. 19 Q Is it possible for a machinist's mate 20 A My apologies. 20 to memorize every kind of pump on a ship? 21 Q That's okay. 21 MR. PARROTT: Object. Page 460 Page 462 1 A There would be lube oil and fuel oil 1 THE COURT: That's common information. 2 pumps and water pumps. And 12 out of the 40 were 2 You can answer based on your experience, but anyone 3 supplied for each of those ships that he was on by 3 could answer that. 4 Goulds. 4 THE WITNESS: I am sorry? 5 Q And is that a large number of one 5 THE COURT: You can answer. 6 manufacturer to be in one engine space? 6 THE WITNESS: If a guy had some kind of 7 A That's unusually large. Usually, there 7 photogenic mind, he maybe could. 8 is a whole lot of people that make pumps, but to 8 BY MR. FROST: 9 have 12 out of 40 would certainly not be a routine 9 Q Now -- 10 and ordinary thing. 10 A I would rather go to a data sheet. 11 Q Now, in addition to the Goulds Pumps' 11 Q What is a manufacturer's tech manual? 12 drawings and some of the things in the National 12 A It is a manual that probably is in 13 Archives, did you have an opportunity to also look 13 three parts. It talks about the nature of the pump, 14 at the some of the correspondence between Goulds 14 it talks how to maintain and troubleshoot it and it 15 Pumps and the folks building the ships? 15 will give you a listing of spare parts, give you a 16 A Yes, I did. 16 picture of the pump and an exploded view of the -- 17 Q And was that correspondence between 17 some of the pieces. 18 Goulds and the folks building the ship? 18 And it will give you a part number. If 19 A It was between Goulds and the Coast 19 you wanted to order a part, you could clearly go 20 Guard or Goulds and the shipyards. 20 back to the original manufacturer and order that 21 Q Did the United States Navy have any 21 part. Court Reporting in Baltimore/Washington Evans Reporting Service 800-256-8410 63 (Pages 459 to 462) Over 20 years of award-winning service Official Trial Transcript 11/18/08 Page 463 Page 465 1 Q Now, if a pump contained asbestos when 1 A Sure. 2 it was shipped from the factory, how does a 2 Q Have you ever removed a gasket from a 3 machinist's mate -- if he is going to replace that 3 Goulds pump? 4 gasket, how does he know what to replace it with? 4 A Yeah, I believe I have in -- in the 5 A Well, he has the plan. He has a plan 5 Merchant Marine. 6 that shows it was an asbestos gasket. 6 Q And during the removal of those 7 Q And was it reasonable and normal for a 7 gaskets, was airborne asbestos created? 8 machinist's mate to look at those plans and then 8 MR. PARROTT: Object. 9 replace the gaskets or any of the other parts in a 9 THE COURT: Well, you can describe what 10 pump based on what the technical manuals would have 10 was created. I don't know if you know what it was. 11 told him? 11 THE WITNESS: I am sorry? 12 A Yes. 12 BY MR. FROST: 13 Q Now, these technical manuals, who 13 Q You can describe what you saw when you 14 writes them? 14 would have worked on a Goulds pump. 15 A The company that makes the equipment 15 A Yeah. Probably half the gasket came 16 writes the technical manual. 16 off easy and half came off hard. And I would have 17 Q And why do they do that? 17 used a paint scraper. I have heard of people using 18 A It is their drawings. And they are the 18 electric drills with wire brushes. 19 ones that know -- they are the ones that know the 19 MR. PARROTT: Object, Your Honor. 20 troubleshooting. They are the ones that know the 20 THE COURT: Overruled. 21 part numbers, the piece numbers, the dimensions. A 21 THE WITNESS: For me to say -- for me Page 464 Page 466 1 lot of dimensions are spelled out on some of those 1 to discuss the airborne particulate at that time, I 2 plans. And they are the folks that made it. 2 don't think I should do that. 3 Q And to your knowledge, was the United 3 BY MR. FROST: 4 States Coast Guard in the business of making pumps? 4 Q Could you see anything? 5 A Please repeat, sir. 5 A Yeah. I have seen some bits and pieces 6 Q I am sorry. 6 flying off as you are scraping, sure. 7 To your knowledge, did the United 7 Q Now, these pumps, when you are -- when 8 States Coast Guard make pumps? 8 an individual is working on them, how many -- is 9 A No, sir, not to my knowledge. 9 that normally something that is going on at sea or 10 Q Did they rely upon the pump 10 is that something that is going on when they are in 11 manufacturers for technical issues regarding the 11 port? 12 pumps? 12 A Either place. You would prefer to work 13 A It would have been a part -- if you are 13 it in port, but if you are at sea, if you are off 14 selling a pump, you have to have a manual with it. 14 Vietnam or something like the Androscoggin was, I 15 Q Now, we talked about the maintenance 15 would have no reservations about shutting down a 16 earlier of these pumps. Is the fact that these 16 fire pump and working on it and having two. 17 pumps have to be regularly maintained and that they 17 You wouldn't shut down a fire pump if 18 have to be torn apart and that the gaskets and 18 you were loading fuel oil or doing something 19 packing would be replaced during that process, is 19 dangerous, but I would have no reservation about 20 that something that is generally known in the marine 20 shutting one down. 21 industry? 21 Q Now, based upon your review of the Court Reporting in Baltimore/Washington Evans Reporting Service 800-256-8410 64 (Pages 463 to 466) Over 20 years of award-winning service Official Trial Transcript 11/18/08 Page 467 Page 469 1 materials in this case, your training, background 1 MR. FROST: Okay. 2 and experience, would Mr. Blackmon as a machinist's 2 BY MR. FROST: 3 mate in the Coast Guard have done maintenance on 3 Q Okay. Captain Lowell, I want to kind 4 these Goulds Pumps that would have resulted in the 4 of summarize real quickly. Then we are going to 5 changing of asbestos gaskets and packing? 5 move on to Crane Co. 6 MR. PARROTT: Object. 6 We are still dealing with Goulds and we 7 THE COURT: Go ahead answer the 7 had talked about the 12 pumps in the engine space 8 question. 8 that were Goulds, correct? 9 A It is my belief that he certainly would 9 A Yes, sir. 10 have. 10 Q And that was not just on one of the 11 Q Do you have any doubt about that? 11 ships, and I have all three of the ships up there. 12 A Not any doubt, not when you consider 12 12 That was 12 Goulds pumps in his machinery space on 13 pumps in a small machinery space. 13 all three of those ships? 14 MR. PARROTT: Objection. 14 A That is correct, sir. 15 A And the fact he had 13 or 14 years on 15 Q Okay. And we were talking about work 16 those ships. 16 with gaskets. And you have done some work with wire 17 THE COURT: Overruled. 17 brushing of gaskets? 18 MR. FROST: Your Honor, what time did 18 A Sure. Hand wire brushes or paint 19 you want to take the afternoon break? 19 scraper, sure. 20 THE COURT: Now would be fine. Where 20 Q And during that process with the hand 21 are you? 21 wire brushing, would airborne particles be released Page 468 Page 470 1 MR. FROST: I am going to move on to 1 during the removal of those gaskets? 2 Crane Co. 2 MR. PARROTT: Objection. We have been 3 THE COURT: I will excuse the jury for 3 through this, Your Honor. 4 a few minutes. 4 THE COURT: Well, he can describe what 5 Take a brief break. We will be back in 5 he would see. I mean, exactly what it was or what 6 about five minutes. 6 it meant. 7 The witness can take relax while we at 7 MR. FROST: That's why I asked, 8 a brief recess. Five minutes. 8 airborne particles. 9 THE COURT CLERK: All rise. 9 THE COURT: That's a technical sort of 10 (Jury dismissed.) 10 term. 11 (Recess taken -- 3:16 p.m.) 11 What do you see? 12 (After recess -- 3:24 p.m.) 12 THE WITNESS: You see some particles 13 THE COURT CLERK: All rise. 13 flying certainly using a wire brush. 14 THE COURT: You may be seated. 14 BY MR. FROST: 15 Why don't you go retrieve the jury? 15 Q Okay. Now, I want to move now on to 16 (Discussion off the record.) 16 Cranite Sheet Packing, which I have up on the 17 (Jury present.) 17 screen. Are you familiar with Cranite Sheet 18 THE COURT: Have a seat. 18 Packing? 19 (Discussion off the record.) 19 A Yes. 20 THE COURT: Okay. The witness remains 20 Q What is Cranite Sheet Packing? 21 under oath. You may continue the examination. 21 A It is an asbestos gasket that was used Court Reporting in Baltimore/Washington Evans Reporting Service 800-256-8410 65 (Pages 467 to 470) Over 20 years of award-winning service Official Trial Transcript 11/18/08 Page 471 Page 473 1 and often used in crane low-pressure steam valves, 1 want to. You might lay it on the edge of a flange 2 low-pressure steam valves, and it was sold -- I have 2 and use the peen on the end of a ball peen hammer to 3 seen it in Crane catalogs. Crane puts out a big 3 hammer that gasket out very lightly. That would be 4 thick 200 or 300-page catalog. There would be 4 one approach. 5 examples, and they actually would sell a Cranite 5 Another approach would be to try to 6 gasket material. 6 mark it and cut it out with some shears. You can 7 Q Now, the jury was shown during opening 7 hammer out the center, punch holes, or if you have a 8 statements some small gaskets that kind of had holes 8 punch and a block of wood, you could knock the holes 9 in them. 9 out with punches. So there are a lot of ways of 10 A Yes. 10 doing it. 11 Q Those are not what this Cranite sheet 11 Sometime you cut it with shears. 12 gasket -- 12 Sometime -- and you need -- you need a -- you need 13 MR. LOWERY: objection. Calls for 13 pencil marks, in other words, circle pencil marks to 14 speculation. Lacks foundation. 14 be sure that you cut it accurate. 15 THE COURT: Do you know the answer? 15 And sometime I have seen sailors -- I 16 THE WITNESS: I do. 16 have seen the Coast Guard tap out gaskets, and some 17 THE COURT: You can answer. 17 guys got pretty good at it. 18 THE WITNESS: You could use Cranite for 18 Q What do you mean by "tap out"? 19 that. It is going to take all sorts of sizes and 19 A Lay the gasket on the face of the 20 shapes depending on how you cut it out. 20 flange and it would overlap the flange and use the 21 BY MR. FROST: 21 peen on the end of a ball peen hammer, tap the edge, Page 472 Page 474 1 Q Right. So could you kind of explain to 1 that sharp edge. And that sharp edge would cut into 2 the jury what a Cranite sheet -- well, how big is a 2 the gasket and the excess material would fall down 3 Cranite sheet of gasket material and how do you turn 3 and you would wind up with a circle. 4 that Cranite sheet material into a gasket that you 4 Q Okay. So this four-foot-by-four-foot 5 put on a valve? 5 or maybe four-foot-by-eight-foot gasket sheet would 6 A Sure. Sure. The sheet gasket material 6 be basically just a large flat sheet of material? 7 usually came in a four-by-eight or four-by-four 7 A That is right. 8 rectangle -- a four-by-four rectangle or a 8 Q And this Cranite material, did it 9 four-by-eight sheet. 9 contain asbestos? 10 Q You mean four foot by eight foot? 10 A Yes. 11 A Four foot by eight foot. 11 Q And what typical percentage of asbestos 12 Q Okay. 12 was this? 13 A And what you would do is, if you had a 13 MR. LOWERY: Objection. Calls for 14 six-inch flange that you wanted to make a gasket 14 speculation. Beyond the witness's expertise. 15 for, such as -- you could even make the gasket for a 15 THE COURT: Do you know within your 16 Goulds pump out of Cranite. 16 expertise? 17 You would cut a rectangular section off 17 THE WITNESS: I believe the gaskets 18 that four-foot-by-four-foot sheet maybe seven inches 18 were 80, 85-percent chrysotile asbestos, real high 19 by seven inches. 19 asbestos content. 20 And then there is a lot of ways of 20 THE COURT: Why would you know that? 21 making that into the exact configuration that you 21 THE WITNESS: I believe -- I not only Court Reporting in Baltimore/Washington Evans Reporting Service 800-256-8410 66 (Pages 471 to 474) Over 20 years of award-winning service Official Trial Transcript 11/18/08 Page 475 Page 477 1 believe that, but I have read federal specs, I have 1 types of valves. There are a lot of types, but 2 read government specs and I have seen analysis done 2 there are, in essence, globe valves and gate valves. 3 of those quantities -- 3 That happens to be gate valve. Very common. 4 THE COURT: All right. Overruled. 4 Q Now, would this valve that I have, this 5 THE WITNESS: -- 80, 85 percent. 5 cutout, would that help you explain to the members 6 BY MR. FROST: 6 of the jury where gaskets and packing are in a 7 Q Okay. Now, those are different -- 7 valve? 8 well, that big sheet is different than just that 8 A Sure. Sure. I could show that. 9 small gasket, right? 9 Q Now, before we get into that, this is 10 A The small gasket can be made out of a 10 one size of a valve? 11 big sheet, that is right. 11 A That is right. 12 Q And this Cranite was sold by Crane Co.? 12 Q And these valves can be, I guess, 13 A Yes, sir. 13 smaller and they can be bigger? 14 Q Now, we have some valves up there, and 14 A Valves can range from quarter inch up 15 I have a valve, a smaller valve. 15 to 18 inches in diameter. Actually, they can be 16 (Smaller valve displayed to jury.) 16 bigger. There are a few saltwater valves that might 17 Q This valve, you have seen this before? 17 be 24 inches in diameter. 18 A Yes, I have. 18 Q I have up on the screen a bigger Crane 19 Q Captain Lowell, would this valve 19 valve. 20 cutout, would it help you in describing to the jury 20 A Yeah. 21 what a valve is and what it does? 21 Q And are those the bigger type valves Page 476 Page 478 1 A A valve is something that you use to 1 that you are talking about? 2 isolate a piece of equipment or to -- you could 2 A That's the exact type of that, only a 3 throttle that piece of equipment if that valve was 3 good deal bigger. Just looking at that valve, it 4 driving -- if that valve was a steam pump and it was 4 looks like it could well be a thousand-pound valve 5 driving an auxiliary turbine, if you closed in on 5 in weight. 6 the valve, it would cause the turbine to slow down. 6 Q Okay. On board ships, there is 7 If you opened up on the valve, it would cause the 7 different size valves, including ones that were this 8 turbine to speed up. 8 size all the way up to those bigger ones? 9 Likewise, you could put something out 9 A That is right, sir. 10 on the discharge of a fire pump, and if you chose to 10 Q Are you aware of whether Crane made 11 throttle it, you could do that. Or if you wanted to 11 these smaller type valves all the way up to those 12 work on the pump, you would use that valve to 12 bigger ones for shipboard use? 13 isolate the fire main, I say, from the fire pump so 13 A In my experience, I have found Crane 14 that we could go to work on the fire pump. 14 making all sizes and all types of gate and globe 15 Q And -- 15 valves. 16 A If you were in port, you could take the 16 Q And these gate and globe valves, are 17 valve out if you wanted to, but if you are at sea, 17 these valves that are going to be in those machinery 18 it is isolation. 18 spaces that we were talking about that Mr. Blackmon 19 Q And this valve here, this is not the 19 would have been in? 20 way a valve looks? 20 A Many, many of them right in the 21 A That one -- there are basically two 21 machinery spaces. That's where the vast majority is Court Reporting in Baltimore/Washington Evans Reporting Service 800-256-8410 67 (Pages 475 to 478) Over 20 years of award-winning service Official Trial Transcript 11/18/08 Page 479 Page 481 1 going to be. 1 little piece by little piece or it might not be that 2 MR. FROST: Your Honor, I -- could he 2 hard. 3 come down and -- 3 It could vary. If the valve has been 4 THE COURT: Yes. That's fine. You can 4 in steam service, this packing gets very, very hard. 5 walk over there, please. 5 And one of the -- one of the things that sometime 6 THE WITNESS: Thank you. 6 can make working on a packing gland difficult is you 7 THE COURT: Don't fall over any wires 7 have to keep open passageways and aisles in a 8 though. 8 machinery space so that you can walk. 9 (The witness left the witness stand.) 9 And so the valves, more often than not, 10 BY MR. FROST: 10 are up in the overhead. So a valve like this would 11 Q Now, Captain Lowell, would you explain 11 be upside down, and you are standing on a step 12 to the members of the jury where asbestos would be 12 ladder trying to dig out packing like that 13 on these -- on this valve? And maybe we can make it 13 (indicating). It can be a pretty dirty job. 14 so everybody can see. 14 Q Now, when it comes from the 15 Bring me that table. 15 manufacturer, where are the other parts that are 16 Okay. And can you come to the side for 16 going to contain asbestos other than the packing? 17 me -- 17 A Okay. There would be a bonnet gasket. 18 A Yes, I can. 18 And this is the so-called bonnet. And as you can 19 Q -- so everybody on the jury can see. 19 see, it would have -- if this was here, there would 20 A This other end would look exactly like 20 be four bolts holding the bonnet on. 21 this end. This is a so-called valve flange that a 21 So if I wanted to work on this Page 480 Page 482 1 pipe is going to bolt to that, a corresponding pipe 1 precision- machined disk, and if I wanted to grind 2 and flange. 2 it down in the machine shop, I would have to take 3 But looking at the valve itself, the 3 off the four nuts, lift this out, and then there 4 way the valves are shipped is, this would be 4 would be a gasket right on that surface. 5 asbestos packing in here. 5 This is depicted by this red piece 6 There typically would be three, four, 6 right here, this resilient. And that happens to be 7 five -- as many as five rings of asbestos packing. 7 rubber, but more often than not that is -- it was 8 And the reason being is that the fluid, whatever 8 always asbestos up until the '70s. At some point, 9 this is, steam, water, lube oil or fuel oil, flowing 9 some substitutes started coming out. 10 through here out the other side, because the disk is 10 Q Now, you -- 11 not all the way down, but that fluid would leak out 11 A Now, there would be a gasket there and 12 here and spray everywhere if we did not have a 12 there would be packing there, but nothing would be 13 resilient sealing product like a packing put in 13 furnished with these two flanges that are here, but 14 here. 14 the shipbuilder, as he installs this valve, he has 15 So if you wanted to repack that valve, 15 to have a mating flange and pipe. 16 you would have to take these two nuts off right 16 Let's say this was steam pipe. So it 17 here. You would lift this gland out of place and 17 was maybe a steamed heat system, steam heating, so 18 you would have to try to dig that packing out with 18 we would have to have a steam heating line going in 19 hooks. 19 and we would have to have a line come out going to 20 And it might come easy and it might 20 the system. 21 come terribly difficult. It might come out piece -- 21 So I can use this valve for two Court Reporting in Baltimore/Washington Evans Reporting Service 800-256-8410 68 (Pages 479 to 482) Over 20 years of award-winning service Official Trial Transcript 11/18/08 Page 483 Page 485 1 purposes. I can throttle it, slow down the flow. I 1 Q And what does that tell you as a marine 2 can speed up the flow. Or if I had a leak, I could 2 engineer? 3 isolate it by closing this valve and fix the leak. 3 A Probably steam, low-pressure steam. 4 So these valves are always going to 4 Q And so those would have had these 5 pipe up. And because this is a flat-face flange, it 5 compressed-type sheet gaskets? 6 would use a sheet asbestos gasket. 6 A That's certainly my belief. 7 Q And if that was not a flat-faced 7 Q And are you aware of Crane ever 8 flange, what other types of gaskets could be used? 8 providing their valves with their Cranite asbestos 9 A It would use a spiral wound steel with 9 sheet gaskets incorporated? 10 some asbestos in the center. And it would be spiral 10 A On the bonnet, yes. On the bonnet, I 11 wound. And the way you find spiral wound is on the 11 have seen Crane valves with Cranite gaskets. 12 high-pressure steam systems, not the low-pressure, 12 Q Now, this -- we talked about that size. 13 but the high-pressure steam systems more often than 13 Now, there is -- besides that size of valve, there 14 not are almost always going to have raised faces. 14 are other sizes on the ship, right? 15 Q And the flange face here that you have 15 A Sure. 16 been showing the jury, whether it is a flat-faced 16 (Larger valve displayed to the jury.) 17 flange here or it is that raised flange that would 17 Q This is another size valve? 18 use those other types of gaskets, who determines 18 A Yes. 19 that? 19 Q And it has a tag right there that says 20 A Well -- 20 Crane Co. on it? 21 MR. LOWERY: Objection. Calls for 21 A Yes, it does. This is called the yoke, Page 484 Page 486 1 speculation. 1 rivetted on the yoke. 2 THE COURT: Slow down. 2 Q And what type of valve is this? 3 Does the witness actually know who 3 A It is a gate valve, rising-stem gate 4 makes that decision? 4 valve. 5 THE WITNESS: The person making the 5 Q And so even though this is a bigger 6 valve. 6 valve, these kind of have similar functions? 7 THE COURT: Overruled. 7 A Sure. It is for isolation. It might 8 BY MR. FROST: 8 be on the skin of the ship, but you open that valve 9 Q Now, these other spiral wound gaskets, 9 and flood the fire pump and the fire pump works. 10 did those also contain asbestos? 10 But if you wanted to isolate the fire pump, you 11 A Some. 11 close that valve. 12 Q Now, you had an opportunity to review 12 Q And so what these valves allow to you 13 the records in this case concerning the Owasco class 13 do on a ship is to be able to do repairs on other 14 ships, correct? 14 things? 15 A Yes, sir. 15 A Isolate and do repairs, but also to do 16 Q Were there Crane valves that contained 16 a certain amount of -- to make people controlling 17 asbestos on those ships? 17 too. Sometime I don't want the full flow of 18 A Yes. 18 whatever it is flowing through that valve, so I can 19 Q Any doubt about that? 19 throttle down on it, what flows in. 20 A Not in my mind. It lists Crane as a 20 And this valve, again, would have -- 21 supplier of steel valves. 21 instead of having that packing that we see there, Court Reporting in Baltimore/Washington Evans Reporting Service 800-256-8410 69 (Pages 483 to 486) Over 20 years of award-winning service Official Trial Transcript 11/18/08 Page 487 Page 489 1 this is a larger valve of packing inside, bigger 1 waiver? 2 packing. And there probably could be as many as a 2 MR. FROST: I hope my firm has comp. 3 half dozen rings in there of asbestos packing. 3 THE WITNESS: We have some helpers 4 Q Okay. And that half a dozen rings of 4 here. 5 asbestos packing, is this another type of valve that 5 MR. FROST: That's okay. We will put 6 could be overhead or not? 6 it down for a second. 7 A This probably is not, but there are an 7 THE WITNESS: Thank you. 8 awful lot of valves that are overhead. 8 MR. FROST: I think, Captain, we can 9 Q Okay. 9 get you to go back to your seat. 10 A It could be. 10 (The witness resumed the witness 11 Q Now, this area right here that I am 11 stand.) 12 referring to where it has the nuts on it, is that 12 BY MR. FROST: 13 where the bonnet is? 13 Q Now, these valves that we have been 14 A That is the bonnet right here. And if 14 talking about, particularly the Crane valves, who 15 you took off -- I think there is eight of those 15 designs those valves? 16 bolts, eight or ten. If you took them all off, you 16 A Well, they come from the company that 17 would have a sheet gasket between the body of the 17 makes them. All valves come from the company that 18 valve and the bonnet to keep -- if that was flowing 18 makes them. 19 water, which it probably was, to keep water from 19 Q And to your knowledge, did the Coast 20 leaking out, but it could be controlling fuel oil, 20 Guard or the government make valves? 21 for all I know. 21 A Not that I know of. Page 488 Page 490 1 Q And when this thing is shipped from the 1 Q Now, we talked about maintenance on 2 manufacturer, does it contain at least the Crane 2 pumps. When it comes to a valve, if you have to 3 valves that were shipped to the Owasco for placement 3 open up a valve, what is the maintenance on a valve 4 on the Owasco, would those Crane valves have 4 if you are going to do that? 5 contained asbestos on that bonnet gasket? 5 A You worry about two things. You worry 6 A It is certainly my belief that it did. 6 about external leaks. The first would be with a 7 That's not a -- not going to be a ground joint where 7 look around the valve stem where the packing was. 8 you would have metal to metal, so my belief there 8 And what you can do is, you can keep 9 were sheet asbestos gaskets. 9 tightening that down, but eventually you get to the 10 Q Then when it is put into the steam 10 point where you can't tighten it anymore and it 11 system, there will be pipes running out here and a 11 still leaks, in which case you wind up changing the 12 pipe running here, and there is going to be gaskets 12 packing. 13 there too? 13 You worry about external leaks such as 14 A There is going to be a gasket there, 14 on the bonnet gasket or on the two flange gaskets. 15 going to be a gasket there as it is piped into the 15 You can have an external leak. 16 system. 16 And even just as important you, can 17 Q Okay. Okay. I think -- 17 have internals, a very unpleasant surprise if you 18 THE COURT: We are not paying if you 18 want to work on something downstream of that valve 19 hurt yourself. 19 that's sitting there. 20 (Laughter ensued.) 20 And we close the valve, and found we 21 THE COURT: Do you want to sign a 21 still had pressure, be it fuel oil or lube oil or Court Reporting in Baltimore/Washington Evans Reporting Service 800-256-8410 70 (Pages 487 to 490) Over 20 years of award-winning service Official Trial Transcript 11/18/08 Page 491 Page 493 1 steam, we have a problem. 1 want to valve that is good for 150 pounds of steam, 2 And we have to take -- we have to 2 and 400 degrees would be one example. 3 figure out a way to get that valve apart and see if 3 A customer -- these particular ships 4 we can clean up the internal surfaces, maybe hand 4 that we are talking about, there were some 5 machine them, clean them up to the point where the 5 high-pressure valves that called for a six -- to 6 valve will hold pressure. 6 have a pressure rating of 600 pounds per square inch 7 Q And when you are doing those type 7 and 750 degrees steam. 8 processes and you are going to put that valve back 8 So the customer has to dictate to the 9 together, are you going to replace the bonnet 9 manufacturer what it is that he wants relative to 10 gaskets? 10 temperature and pressure. 11 A Yes. If you have opened that valve up, 11 Q And once he said, listen, I want a 12 you are always going to replace the bonnet gasket 12 valve that is going to work at this temperature and 13 and you are going to replace the flange gaskets too. 13 at this pressure, does the customer really care what 14 Q So whenever a valve is opened up, it is 14 the valve looks like and what it all consisted of? 15 standard practice and procedure in the marine 15 A No. He has a Crane catalog, so he is 16 industry to replace the bonnet gasket and the flange 16 going to know what it looks like. He is actually 17 gaskets? 17 picking it out of those catalogs. 18 A Yes, particularly if the valve comes 18 Q Now, these valves we are talking about, 19 out and goes up to a workbench. And that is 19 these Crane valves, based on your review of all the 20 typically where you are going to work on it is a 20 documents that you've reviewed in the past and your 21 bench with good lighting and compressed air maybe. 21 experience in the marine industry over the years, Page 492 Page 494 1 It is possible that you could open the 1 was Crane a common supplier of marine valves? 2 valve up in place, in which case you would only 2 A Very much so. 3 replace the bonnet gasket. But more often than not, 3 Q Now, based on your review of all the 4 the valve is going to be taken up to a workbench and 4 materials in this case, do you have an opinion as to 5 worked on there. 5 whether Mr. Blackmon would have worked on Crane 6 Q And is that kind of work machinist's 6 valves and performed repairs and maintenance, 7 mates would do? 7 including changing of gaskets and packing? 8 A Absolutely. 8 A Yes, I have an opinion. And my opinion 9 Q And in regards to these flanges and 9 is that he would have. And if a valve like that was 10 these flange gaskets, are those flange gaskets 10 in a steam system, the valve would have a portable 11 necessary for this valve to operate in the steam 11 blanket around it for insulation purposes. You 12 system? 12 wouldn't -- 13 A Yeah. It would leak like heck if you 13 MR. LOWERY: Objection. Move to 14 didn't have gaskets on either end. 14 strike. Beyond the scope of the question. 15 Q And when these valves are designed, are 15 THE COURT: Ask another question. 16 they designed to work at certain temperatures? 16 Sustained. 17 A Yes. Yes. Certain valves are designed 17 MR. FROST: All right. 18 for certain temperatures. 18 BY MR. FROST: 19 Q And who designs them to meet those 19 Q Now, these -- these Crane valves, you 20 temperature specifications? 20 have worked on Crane valves? 21 A Well, the customer is going to say, I 21 A Lots of times. Court Reporting in Baltimore/Washington Evans Reporting Service 800-256-8410 71 (Pages 491 to 494) Over 20 years of award-winning service Official Trial Transcript 11/18/08 Page 495 Page 497 1 Q And you have done that over the years, 1 Q And there are some other pieces of 2 I guess? 2 machinery in Mr. Blackmon's engine space that we 3 A In the last 20 years, I didn't have 3 have not talked about? 4 much hands-on. 4 A That is right. 5 Q Okay. Now, in regards to these valves, 5 Q And some of those machine spaces may 6 were there drawings that were associated with these 6 have contained asbestos, and they may not have? 7 valves? 7 A Would have, sure. 8 A Yes, drawings, yes, sir. 8 Q And so even though you and I have not 9 Q And why are drawings associated with 9 talked about those, you have given opinions about 10 these valves? 10 which types of equipment may have contained asbestos 11 A You have drawings for practically every 11 other than Goulds pumps and these Crane valves? 12 piece of gear on the ship. And you would want a 12 A Yes. 13 drawing that would show you the -- that would show 13 Q Okay. And are you also familiar with 14 you the model. 14 the crew's quarters on these Owasco class ships? 15 It might give you the piece numbers. 15 A I am familiar with the specifications 16 If you wanted to order a new valve stem or something 16 of insulated crew's quarters. 17 like that, you could do that without ordering the 17 Q And what insulation was used on the 18 whole valve, so you would have valve drawings. 18 crew's quarters for these Owasco ships? 19 Q And these valve drawings, well, I guess 19 A Fiberglass. 20 there is other drawings on shipboard too, right? 20 Q And why was fiberglass used for 21 A Yes. 21 insulation in the crew's quarters? Page 496 Page 498 1 Q But the drawings for the valves 1 A It is one quarter the weight of 2 themselves, who makes those? 2 asbestos, and it is easier to put up. And it 3 A Oh, the drawing is going to be made by 3 obviously poses no hazard, but fiberglass was used 4 Crane. The drawings on the ship are going to be 4 when the Owasco was built in the quarters and the 5 maintained in the engineering so-called log room 5 ceiling, in the bulkheads, particularly those 6 where the drawings are stored. 6 bulkheads that the other side of it was to the 7 Q And why are the drawings stored in the 7 weather. 8 engineering log room? 8 So that, one, it became insulation and, 9 A I didn't hear the first part, sir. 9 two, it helped with the acoustics, kept the noise 10 Q I am sorry. I keep turning my head. 10 down and it kept the sweat down. 11 Why are the drawings held in the engineering log 11 And further, the ventilation on Owasco 12 room and what is the purpose of those drawings for 12 was a combination heat and air conditioning. And 13 valves and things? 13 all that ventilation was fiberglassed also. 14 A For reference. If you have trouble 14 Q And so if there was any disturbance of 15 with a valve, it gives you a reference point. You 15 that fiberglass material, that could possibly have 16 can go back to Crane and order a new valve or you 16 gotten on folks? 17 can go back to Crane and order a piece number. 17 A That's entirely possible. 18 Q Now, you reviewed -- and you have 18 Q Does the fiberglass material sometimes 19 reviewed a lot of different materials in this case 19 look dusty like asbestos? 20 concerning these Owasco class ships, correct? 20 A Well, it can leach out, sure. 21 A Yes, sir. 21 Q Now, we have heard a lot of discussion Court Reporting in Baltimore/Washington Evans Reporting Service 800-256-8410 72 (Pages 495 to 498) Over 20 years of award-winning service Official Trial Transcript 11/18/08 Page 499 Page 501 1 during opening statements about pipe covering. You 1 isn't one today. It is whosever's around to patch 2 are familiar with pipe covering on ships? 2 something. 3 A Yes, sir. 3 And most of the work done is patching 4 Q And pipe covering on ships, 4 with cement. A small ship like that, 255-foot ship, 5 traditionally, is that material just kind of hanging 5 you have multiple different sizes of thicknesses. 6 around or is there something applied to it onboard 6 You probably didn't even carry spare pipe covering, 7 ship? 7 but you would carry cement cloth. 8 A Well, you have -- you have the 8 Q And if you didn't carry that spare pipe 9 half-round pipes on and then you have cloth over 9 covering, if major pipe covering had to be done, who 10 that. You will always have cloth over that. 10 would do that. When would it be done? 11 And some of the half-rounds you will 11 A Whoever was working the job, unless you 12 seal off with a cement on the joints. 12 happened to be in a shipyard. 13 Q And after these half-rounds have cloth 13 Q And would that be the traditional type 14 put over them and they have some cement put on them, 14 of things that would happen in shipyards? 15 are they then painted? 15 A Yes. 16 A They are painted numerous times over 16 Q Now, was working with pipe covering 17 the life of a ship. 17 ever the primary duty or responsibility of a 18 Q And why are these pipes painted? 18 machinist's mate? 19 A One, sailors seem to like to paint. 19 A No, no. 20 And, two, everybody likes to keep the 20 Q What was their principal responsibility 21 place clean. So that if some of that paint began to 21 on ships? Page 500 Page 502 1 get dirty with age and an inspection was coming up, 1 A Standing watch and monitoring equipment 2 presto, you paint it. 2 and seeing that the equipment performed properly 3 Q And so you are familiar with pads too. 3 and, if it didn't, maintaining it, whatever it was 4 Were those painted? 4 that wasn't performing properly. 5 A Yes. Portable insulating pads, I am 5 Q Now, I want to switch gears a little 6 familiar with those. 6 bit to your time at Bath Iron Works, the shipyard. 7 Q And are those painted on ships? 7 In the 1960s timeframe, did Bath become aware of the 8 A Yes. You don't paint the inside. 8 dangers associated with asbestos? 9 Q Right. 9 A We knew there were problems in the mid 10 A But you paint the outside. 10 to late '60s because a Harvard medical study was 11 Q Now, this pipe covering, particularly 11 done on scene. 12 on Coast Guard cutters, was that the type of work 12 Q Now, because of those studies that were 13 that on a daily basis a machinist's mate would do? 13 being done at Bath, did Bath make recommendations as 14 A No. I wouldn't say it was certainly on 14 to removal of asbestos and thermal insulation? 15 a daily basis; not so. 15 A Not really removal. It made 16 Q And in fact, whose responsibility -- if 16 recommendations to seek out alternate materials and 17 there was some major pipe covering that needed to be 17 better installation procedures and policies. 18 done, who traditionally would do that? 18 Q And this seeking of substitute 19 A There is no such thing as a pipe 19 materials for asbestos pipe covering, that was 20 coverer rating in either the United States Navy or 20 before the 1970s, right? 21 the Coast Guard. There never has been and there 21 A That is right. In the late '60s, we Court Reporting in Baltimore/Washington Evans Reporting Service 800-256-8410 73 (Pages 499 to 502) Over 20 years of award-winning service Official Trial Transcript 11/18/08 Page 503 Page 505 1 were substituting in a lot of cases. 1 A That is right, until such time as a 2 Q So it wouldn't be fair to say that the 2 complete substitution had been accomplished. 3 entire time that Mr. Blackmon was in the Coast 3 Q Now, Captain Lowell, I guess until you 4 Guard, Bath did not take precautions against 4 knew asbestos was dangerous, you didn't warn anybody 5 asbestos pipe covering, correct? 5 about it, I guess? 6 A That would be essentially true. He got 6 A No, I did not. I was more concerned 7 out of the Coast Guard, I believe, in 1972 maybe. 7 about fiberglass probably than asbestos. 8 Q But prior to that, was Bath already 8 Q But once you learned that asbestos was 9 saying, "We need to take asbestos out of the pipe 9 dangerous, did you take precautions and help folks 10 covering and substitute that"? When I say -- I mean 10 and make sure that they did something to protect 11 substitute, not take out. 11 themselves? 12 A This was an evolutionary thing. 12 A We did. But, again, it was 13 Q Right. 13 evolutionary. It isn't something that happened 14 A And we got our first shipment of 14 overnight. 15 non-asbestos molded pipe covering in in the fall of 15 Q Now, after you retired, did you start 16 1973. 16 to become involved in testifying in litigation? 17 Q Now, in regards to gaskets and packing, 17 A Yes. 18 when did you start seeing warnings on gaskets and 18 Q And how did that begin? 19 packing? 19 A Phone calls. 20 A That would have been in the mid '70s 20 Q From who? 21 that I began to see that. Perhaps there was some 21 A Foster Wheeler, GE, Travelers, Page 504 Page 506 1 safety data sheets out into the 1972, '73 timeframe, 1 insurance companies, plaintiffs' firm in Thomsom. I 2 but as I best remember the warnings took the form of 2 did the shipyard's workers' comp cases that related 3 safety data sheets. 3 to asbestos. 4 Q And once you saw these warnings and 4 And then it has spread. And probably 5 safety data sheets on gaskets and packing, what 5 the last four years, I have been doing quite a lot 6 types of procedures did you implement in regards to 6 of plaintiff work, but it was mostly defense work up 7 gaskets and packing? 7 until then. 8 A We started paying a lot more attention 8 Q When you very first were approached to 9 to it and treated it as a real asbestos hazard, 9 testify in cases like this concerning asbestos 10 certainly, in the late '70s. 10 litigation, you were basically approached by 11 And in many cases, we wouldn't know 11 companies that were involved in the litigation? 12 whether something was asbestos or not until we took 12 A That is right. 13 it out, but we would treat it as an asbestos event 13 Q And you have testified, I guess, over 14 and people would dress up in suits in the late '70s 14 the years. And how long have you been testifying? 15 and an industrial hygienist probably was on scene 15 A Repeat. 16 and air monitoring, testing was going on. 16 Q I am sorry. How long have you been -- 17 And again, I repeat, this is an 17 (Siren interruption.) 18 evolutionary thing, but probably the late '70s is my 18 Q It is hard for me to think with that. 19 best estimate for that. 19 They are getting closer, not farther away. 20 Q And that's the way that gaskets and 20 Okay. How long have you been 21 packing were handled, not pipe covering? 21 testifying in asbestos cases? Court Reporting in Baltimore/Washington Evans Reporting Service 800-256-8410 74 (Pages 503 to 506) Over 20 years of award-winning service Official Trial Transcript 11/18/08 Page 507 Page 509 1 A About 13 years. 1 Q When you are testifying in these cases, 2 Q Now, can you just tell the members of 2 Captain Lowell, are you sometimes -- what generally 3 the jury how many cases you have probably testified 3 do you do? 4 in? 4 MR. PARROTT: Well, I object. It is 5 A In court a dozen or more, and in 5 this case. 6 deposition something over 50. 6 THE COURT: What in general do you do? 7 Q And how does that kind of break down? 7 Well, go ahead, if you think that is going to help 8 You said you now testify for both sides? 8 the case. 9 A Yeah. 9 Tell us what you do. 10 Q The defendants, and people like me that 10 THE WITNESS: I try to look at the 11 represent the folks hurt by asbestos? 11 ship, what the ship's machinery space would look 12 A The thing I can tell you is that 12 like, what the propulsion plant looked like, was it 13 certainly the last two cases I have worked were both 13 diesel, was it steam turbine, was it a reciprocating 14 Los Angeles cases and one was for a plaintiff and 14 steam engine or was it a gas turbine or even 15 one was for a defendant. 15 nuclear, and I have worked all. 16 But what I would say, I have tipped the 16 And I try to determine who had what 17 scale and I have done more plaintiff court cases 17 equipment on that ship, whether that equipment had 18 than I have defendant court cases. 18 insulation, whether that equipment would be 19 And I believe that I have done more 19 maintained on a periodic basis, whether the 20 depositions for defendants than I have plaintiffs, 20 equipment was insulated or not insulated. 21 if you looked at the sum total. 21 And so there is a lot of commonality, Page 508 Page 510 1 Q Now, when you are doing this work on 1 whether I am sitting on the defense side or on the 2 these cases, whether you are doing it for the 2 plaintiff side. 3 defendant or you are doing it for folks like me who 3 BY MR. FROST: 4 represent the folks hurt by asbestos, are you giving 4 Q And it doesn't matter which side, your 5 the same general type testimony? 5 testimony is going to be what it is? 6 A Yes, sir. I try to be consistent. 6 MR. PARROTT: Objection. 7 Q I mean, you are -- basically, what you 7 THE COURT: Overruled. 8 do is, you explain what -- where asbestos is on 8 THE WITNESS: I like to think it is 9 these things and whether they contain asbestos? 9 consistent. I am sorry. 10 MR. PARROTT: I object. 10 BY MR. FROST: 11 THE COURT: Sustained. Leading. 11 Q Go ahead. You can answer. 12 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir. 12 THE COURT: You like to be consistent? 13 BY MR. FROST: 13 A I am trying to be consistent. 14 Q Is there any change in your testimony 14 Q Okay. Now, since you began testifying 15 between when you testify for defendants or 15 in litigation and when you began consulting in 16 plaintiffs? 16 litigation for defendants 13 years ago, have you 17 MR. PARROTT: Object. 17 discovered any new information as you went along and 18 THE WITNESS: Sure. 18 visited the National Archives and looked at other 19 THE COURT: Sustained. It is not a 19 sources? 20 helpful question in any event. 20 MR. PARROTT: Object. 21 BY MR. FROST: 21 THE COURT: That's just entirely too Court Reporting in Baltimore/Washington Evans Reporting Service 800-256-8410 75 (Pages 507 to 510) Over 20 years of award-winning service Official Trial Transcript 11/18/08 Page 511 Page 513 1 vague. New information? You get new information 1 THE COURT: Sustained. 2 every day. Sustained. 2 BY MR. FROST: 3 BY MR. FROST: 3 Q Now, in regards to this particular 4 Q Captain Lowell, since you have been in 4 case, based on your review of all of the documents 5 this -- being a consulting witness in this -- in 5 and the evidence in this case, have you seen any 6 these type cases, has your knowledge developed over 6 indication that there were any warnings about the 7 time? 7 dangers of asbestos in either any of the technical 8 A Certainly. 8 manuals or on any of the Goulds pumps? 9 Q Okay. And your opinions, as you gained 9 MR. PARROTT: I object, Your Honor. He 10 more knowledge, have those opinions sometimes 10 never went to the Archives to even look for that 11 changed? 11 information. 12 A Certainly. 12 THE COURT: Well -- 13 MR. PARROTT: Object. 13 MR. PARROTT: How would he know? 14 THE COURT: Overruled. 14 THE COURT: How would he know? Did you 15 Q And in regards to these opinions, have 15 actually look at the pumps that were relevant to 16 you at times been asked by lawyers on both sides to 16 this case? 17 sign affidavits in court cases? 17 THE WITNESS: I have looked at some of 18 A Yes. 18 the catalogs certainly and drawings. I have the 19 MR. PARROTT: Objection. 19 pump drawings. 20 THE COURT: Overruled. 20 THE COURT: All right. If the pump 21 BY MR. FROST: 21 drawings enable you to answer the question, you can Page 512 Page 514 1 Q And in regards to these affidavits, 1 answer it insofar as the drawings indicate whether 2 have you sometimes had to say, "You know what, I had 2 there is warnings. 3 that opinion before, and now I have a different 3 BY MR. FROST: 4 opinion based on this additional research"? 4 Q Do the drawings indicate there are any 5 MR. PARROTT: Same objection. 5 warnings on these Goulds pumps? 6 THE WITNESS: Yes. 6 A No, sir. 7 THE COURT: What's the point of this? 7 Q Have you also reviewed drawings in 8 MR. FROST: Your Honor, I am almost 8 regards to the Crane valves? 9 done. I think it is -- I will ask one more 9 A No, I have not -- I have reviewed a lot 10 question. 10 of Crane drawings, but not specifically Crane valves 11 BY MR. FROST: 11 for the Owasco, I don't have any. 12 Q Captain Lowell, you understand the 12 Q But we do have indications from the 13 reason I am asking you this is because, usually, 13 Archives that those Crane valves were actually on 14 when you testify, folks bring up that you have 14 those ships? 15 changed some of your opinions? 15 A Oh, we are certain that Crane valves 16 A That is right. 16 were bought for the Owasco class. 17 Q And is that anything new? I mean, it 17 (Discussion off the record.) 18 is kind of old news you changed some of your 18 MR. FROST: Thank you, Captain Lowell. 19 opinions? 19 That's all the questions I have. 20 MR. PARROTT: Objection. 20 THE WITNESS: You are welcome, sir. 21 THE WITNESS: Yes. 21 THE COURT: Who wants cross first? Court Reporting in Baltimore/Washington Evans Reporting Service 800-256-8410 76 (Pages 511 to 514) Over 20 years of award-winning service Official Trial Transcript 11/18/08 Page 515 Page 517 1 MR. PARROTT: I will start, Your Honor. 1 worked with the Board of Inspection and Survey, 2 THE COURT: Proceed. 2 correct? 3 CROSS EXAMINATION 3 A That is right. 4 BY MR. PARROTT: 4 Q And what you did with them is, you went 5 Q Hello, again, Captain Lowell. 5 to certain contract naval shipyards and you 6 A Hello. 6 inspected ships? 7 Q How are you? 7 A And not just naval shipyards; 8 A Fine, sir. 8 commercial shipyards too. 9 Q We met once before with regard to your 9 Q Okay. And at those shipyards, they 10 deposition. It was November 4th, wasn't it? 10 work on commercial ships and Navy ships and Coast 11 A If you say so. 11 Guard ships? 12 Q All right. I have the deposition and 12 A In some cases, that could be true. 13 the exhibits here in case we want to refer to them. 13 Q All right. And this Board of 14 MR. LOWERY: Well, Your Honor, may I 14 Inspection and Survey was made up of senior 15 turn this off? 15 experienced naval engineers, correct? 16 THE COURT: What is it? 16 A That is right. 17 MR. LOWERY: It was on during 17 Q And they took you along with them? 18 Mr. Frost's direct, unless you need it. 18 A Yes. 19 THE COURT: Oh, that thing. Yes. 19 Q And you would go into these shipyards 20 MR. FROST: I don't know. They are 20 and you would report to the Navy what you found 21 probably warmer than we are over here. 21 wrong with certain things in the Navy, correct? Page 516 Page 518 1 MR. LOWERY: Mr.~Cottle is being 1 A Well -- and most often it would be at 2 blinded over here. 2 sea. We would also go to sea. 3 MR. PARROTT: All right. 3 Q And I think you told me at your 4 THE COURT: Go ahead. 4 deposition, when you reported to the Navy you saw 5 MR. PARROTT: May I proceed? 5 something wrong, you didn't sugarcoat it, correct? 6 THE COURT: Please. 6 A That is right. 7 BY MR. PARROTT: 7 Q And in all the years that you worked 8 Q You mentioned you are doing litigation- 8 with that Board of Inspection and Survey, you never 9 related consulting nowadays. You are not doing work 9 once reported to the Navy that there was a problem 10 for the Navy nowadays, are you? 10 with asbestos-containing gaskets and packings, 11 A No. Not for the Navy, per se, no, sir. 11 correct? 12 Q I think you told me at your deposition 12 A No, I never did. 13 that -- and you have told us here today that you 13 Q All right. And you never reported a 14 spent 30 years in the Naval Reserves, '56 to '87, 14 problem with the Goulds pumps while you were working 15 correct? 15 with those senior engineers, correct? 16 A That is right. 16 A Let me go back and just talk about just 17 Q A lot of things have changed over those 17 for a minute -- 18 years with regard to technology, correct? 18 Q Can you answer my question? 19 A Sure. 19 A -- about the asbestos. From 19 -- 20 Q All right. And one of the things that 20 Q Can you answer the question I put to 21 you told me you did in the Navy Reserve was you 21 you? Court Reporting in Baltimore/Washington Evans Reporting Service 800-256-8410 77 (Pages 515 to 518) Over 20 years of award-winning service Official Trial Transcript 11/18/08 Page 519 Page 521 1 A Please ask the question again. Reask 1 thousand. 2 the question. 2 Q Okay. But when you found out about it, 3 Q Did you ever report a problem with the 3 the knowledge that you had was that asbestos was a 4 Goulds pumps when you were working for the Board of 4 hazard for insulators, not to everybody else. And, 5 Inspection and Survey? 5 hence, you didn't wear a respirator yourself; isn't 6 A No. I didn't see many Goulds Pumps. 6 that correct? 7 Q Okay. 7 A That is right. I did not wear a 8 (Discussion off the record.) 8 respirator. 9 MR. PARROTT: I can use that pad, 9 Q Okay. Now, you were aware, were you 10 couldn't I? 10 not, when you got to Bath Shipyard, that insulators 11 THE COURT: Sure. 11 had been receiving premium or hazardous duty pay, 12 MR. PARROTT: All right. 12 extra pay for working with insulation, correct? 13 BY MR. PARROTT: 13 A No. 14 Q And when you were in the Naval Reserve, 14 Q Did there come a time when you found 15 you told us that you had a parallel career with Bath 15 out? 16 Iron Works, correct? 16 A Yes, there came a time. 17 A That is right. 17 Q And they were receiving this extra 18 Q And you worked your way up from a 18 hazardous duty pay because of the hazards of the 19 first-line supervisor up to -- you were vice 19 pipe covering, correct? 20 president and the general manager of the ship repair 20 A Hazardous duty pay from any dusty 21 facility, correct? 21 process, and it was for sandblasting, grinding, pipe Page 520 Page 522 1 A That is right. 1 covering. 2 Q And when you worked for Bath Iron 2 Q Okay. And after this article came out, 3 Works, you got there in 1962, correct? 3 the Harvard School of Public Health article, certain 4 A Yes, sir. 4 changes were made regarding how pipe coverers did 5 Q And you knew in the mid 1960s that 5 their work at Bath. 6 there was a problem with health hazards associated 6 For example, you started using tables 7 with asbestos-containing pipe covering? 7 that had downdrafts, correct? 8 A That is right. 8 A That is right. 9 Q All right. And at the time, sometime 9 Q So when they cut this pipe covering, 10 thereafter, you told us about this article from the 10 there would be a suction that would suck the dust 11 Harvard School of Public Health? 11 out, correct? 12 A Yes. It was published. 12 A That is right. 13 Q Sometime thereafter, the shipyard 13 Q And you would bring at some point the 14 started saying, "Look, insulators should start 14 insulators in on the night shift so they wouldn't be 15 wearing respirators," correct? 15 around other people creating this dust, correct? 16 A As I have stated here today, it was an 16 A Yes. And they worked more efficiently 17 evolutionary process, yes, sir. 17 at night. 18 Q All right. And initially when you 18 Q Okay. And respirators was something 19 found out about the problems, you, the guy at the 19 that was used by these insulators, correct? 20 shipyard -- 20 A It evolved. 21 A Well, let me speak. I was one of a few 21 Q And it wasn't until the mid 1970s that Court Reporting in Baltimore/Washington Evans Reporting Service 800-256-8410 78 (Pages 519 to 522) Over 20 years of award-winning service Official Trial Transcript 11/18/08 Page 523 Page 525 1 the people at Bath Iron Works said, "Hey, this 1 THE WITNESS: I remember it. 2 hazard might be harmful to people other than 2 MR. PARROTT: All right. Let's give 3 insulators," correct? 3 counsel a minute. Then I will ask you a question. 4 A I wouldn't say that's totally correct, 4 MR. FROST: I do object, Your Honor. 5 no. 5 It doesn't impeach. It is the exact same thing that 6 Q All right. Well, let me -- and the 6 he said before, but if he wants to read it -- 7 reason I bring it up, I took your deposition in this 7 THE COURT: It is cross. Overruled. 8 case, but I was reading in 2007 -- you remember that 8 MR. PARROTT: Right. 9 you gave a deposition in a case that involved all 9 BY MR. PARROTT: 10 Maine asbestos cases? Remember that? 10 Q And the question you were asked -- by 11 A No. 11 the way, it wasn't me asking it, was it? 12 MR. FROST: Counsel, do you have a copy 12 A No. 13 for us? 13 Q All right. Okay. And nobody in 14 MR. PARROTT: I don't have a copy for 14 management at Bath Iron Works that you met with ever 15 you, but it is your witness. You can come up and 15 said anything to you to lead you to believe that 16 look at it. 16 this asbestos was a danger other than to the pipe 17 MR. FROST: I would just ask if he 17 coverers at least until the mid 1970s. 18 could show it to me before he approached the 18 Your answer was, early to mid '70s? 19 witness. 19 A Early to mid '70s. You posed the 20 THE COURT: Go ahead. Go look at it. 20 question mid -- you posed the question mid '70s. 21 MR. PARROTT: Come and look. 21 Early to '70s. Page 524 Page 526 1 BY MR. PARROTT: 1 Q All right. Well, then, the questioner 2 Q I am reading Page 139. Let me read it. 2 said early to mid, and you said, just pull that back 3 A Yes. 3 to early to mid '70s, and that would be a true 4 Q And then -- 4 statement. 5 MR. FROST: Your Honor, may I -- can he 5 A Yeah, early. That is right. '70, '71. 6 at least give me the -- point out where it is and 6 '72. That's right. 7 let me see it. 7 Q Well -- 8 THE COURT: Yes. This is a case -- 8 A Yes. 9 while he is looking at that, just for the record, 9 Q All right. You stand by that, right? 10 can you state what the case was -- 10 A I stand by my early to mid. I stand by 11 MR. PARROTT: Sure. 11 my early '70s. 12 THE COURT: -- so it is clear on the 12 Q Now, gaskets and packings -- well, let 13 record what you are showing the witness. 13 me strike that. I will come back to those. 14 MR. FROST: Your Honor, it is the 14 Let's talk about pipe covering. As a 15 Deposition, State of Maine, In Re: All Maine 15 supervisor at Bath, you felt you were responsible 16 Asbestos Litigation. It appears to be 10-24-2007. 16 for any hazards that you were aware of in the 17 THE WITNESS: I do remember. 17 workplace, correct? 18 THE COURT: It is the witness's 18 A Generally speaking, yes. 19 deposition. 19 Q Okay. And you probably did the best 20 MR. PARROTT: I was going to show you 20 you could if you saw a hazard to communicate it to 21 that. 21 everybody; is that correct? Court Reporting in Baltimore/Washington Evans Reporting Service 800-256-8410 79 (Pages 523 to 526) Over 20 years of award-winning service Official Trial Transcript 11/18/08 Page 527 Page 529 1 A That is right. 1 repair work, but we did a little. Most of our 2 Q Now, part of some of the work you did 2 repair work was Coast Guard and Navy. 3 was to detail and outline certain work that had to 3 Q All right. 4 be -- repair work that had to be done on certain 4 A So the bureau would have zero 5 ships at Bath Iron Works, correct? 5 involvement in that. 6 A That's part of it. Most of our work 6 Q Well, the bureau did have input into 7 was new construction, but we did -- 7 some of the repair work you did at Bath, correct? 8 Q Well, when you were head of the repair 8 A Only when it was a piece of commercial 9 facility, by definition, you were doing repair work 9 work. 10 at that facility, correct? 10 Q Right. 11 A And adding to building new ships too. 11 A Repair work. 12 Q Okay. 12 Q Right. They were involved? 13 A So there is a combination. 13 A But very little. 14 Q All right. Fair enough. And those 14 Q Okay. 15 ships would have included commercial, naval and 15 A 98 percent of their time was new 16 Coast Guard vessels? 16 construction. 17 A That is right. 17 Q Right. So more of the work that you 18 Q Okay. And in the work that you 18 did at the repair facility when you were the GM 19 detailed to be done that you approved, it was common 19 there was Navy and Coast Guard? 20 for you in the '60s and '70s to detail that work and 20 A That is right. 21 authorize the use of asbestos-containing gaskets, 21 Q All right. And it is correct, is it Page 528 Page 530 1 correct? 1 not, that Bath didn't stop using asbestos-containing 2 A In the -- up to the -- up to the early 2 gaskets and packings until the early 1980s? 3 to mid '70s, that would be true. 3 A Well, you have to put that in context. 4 Q Okay. Now, I wanted to -- you were 4 We started substituting -- and we did not come up 5 doing some work at the shipyard for the American 5 with a complete list of substitutes until 1980 or 6 Bureau of Ships, right? 6 the early '80s, but this was -- again, this was an 7 A Well, they were -- they kept an office 7 evolutionary issue. 8 in our facility and they oversaw some of the 8 Q As was a lot of the knowledge dealing 9 commercial work. 9 with hazards around the shipyard, correct? 10 Q All right. And the American Bureau of 10 A Well, when you say -- whose knowledge? 11 Ships, I don't want to get into too much detail, but 11 Q Well, let's start with the shipyard's 12 they were an organization that would give 12 knowledge. 13 classifications to certain ships, correct? 13 A Well, yes. But there is -- you know, 14 A That is right. 14 there is -- shipyards is big group too. 15 Q And ships would have to meet certain 15 Q Well, one of the things at bath, I 16 standards, wouldn't they? 16 asked you I think earlier whether you were a Coast 17 A That is right. 17 Guard inspector, but you said you were there -- you 18 Q And they would be at the shipyard and, 18 were not an inspector, but you have been working 19 when Bath did repair work, it would have to meet 19 with them since 1953, correct? 20 American Bureau of Ship standards, wouldn't it? 20 A Yes. 21 A Yes. We did not do a lot of commercial 21 Q And at the Bath facility, we not only Court Reporting in Baltimore/Washington Evans Reporting Service 800-256-8410 80 (Pages 527 to 530) Over 20 years of award-winning service Official Trial Transcript 11/18/08 Page 531 Page 533 1 had Bath people there, but the Coast Guard had a 1 ship Violet. Do I have that right? 2 presence there. They had a resident inspection team 2 A No. I think he went on the Mendota 3 of, I think you told me, 15 to 20 key people? 3 first, but he went on the Violet eventually. 4 A The 15 to 20 people would have been in 4 Q I don't mean the first one he was on. 5 Portland, a resident inspection team for the major 5 A Okay. 6 300 million-dollar overhaul we did of the four Coast 6 Q Actually, I was taking it from first 7 Guard ships. 7 one in terms of when it was built. 8 Q And would Coast Guard inspectors also 8 A Okay. 9 be around for commercial ships when repair work was 9 Q We call it a United States Coast Guard 10 done at Bath? 10 ship rather than a cutter because it was a buoy 11 A Most -- again, they were there for the 11 tender, right? 12 new construction. There would be two or three 12 A That is right. 13 resident inspectors there for new construction. 13 Q And that was the Violet, correct? 14 Q Naval engineers? 14 A Yes. 15 A Coast Guard engineers. 15 Q And that was built in 1929? 16 Q Well -- 16 A Something like that. 17 A You could say naval. They are Coast 17 Q And in connection with your undertaking 18 Guard, sure. 18 in this case, you cannot focus on the Violet because 19 Q All right. Coast Guard engineers. And 19 it was an old ship? 20 the Navy had a presence there when you were doing 20 A No. I am convinced that I wouldn't 21 work on Navy ships, correct? 21 have found anything if I had focused either. Page 532 Page 534 1 A That is right. 1 Q All right. And the documents that you 2 Q Before I move to the ships in this 2 reviewed in this case that Mr. McCaffery provided, 3 case, you mentioned that you hold a license as a 3 there were not a whole lot of documents for the 4 chief -- I wrote down chief engineer. Is that 4 Violet, were there? 5 correct? 5 A There were not. 6 A That is right. 6 Q All right. And you can't say that 7 Q All right. And that was a pretty hard 7 there was ever a Goulds pump or a Crane valve on the 8 certification to get, as you told us? 8 Violet? 9 A You had to work for it. 9 A Limited equipment identification on the 10 Q You are going to let yours lapse 10 Violet. Main engine and the boilers, and that's all 11 because you don't really use it in connection with 11 that I know. 12 your consulting work nowadays? 12 Q All right. I am going to write it over 13 A No, I do not. 13 here in case we forget. Violet. I will write it. 14 Q And it is quite frankly too much hassle 14 It was built in approximately 1929? 15 for what it would be worth to you right now? 15 A Yes. 16 A That is correct. 16 Q And you can't tell us anything about a 17 Q Now, the ships involved in this 17 Goulds pump or a Crane valve on it, right? 18 particular case, you were aware that there were five 18 A No, I cannot. I can't tell you 19 ships involved, correct? 19 anything about it, period. 20 A Yes. 20 Q So I wrote it down, and I have crossed 21 Q The first one was the U.S. Coast Guard 21 it off. So let's move to another ship that is Court Reporting in Baltimore/Washington Evans Reporting Service 800-256-8410 81 (Pages 531 to 534) Over 20 years of award-winning service Official Trial Transcript 11/18/08 Page 535 Page 537 1 involved in this case, the Ingham? 1 Q And the documents you looked at 2 A Yes. 2 indicated there were no Goulds Pumps on the Ingham? 3 Q That was a Coast Guard -- 3 A There was no indication of Goulds Pumps 4 A It would help maybe if you put down the 4 on the Ingham. 5 length of time that he spent on those ships. Would 5 Q I am going to scratch that off. You 6 you agree to do that? 6 did tell me, didn't you, that likely on the Ingham 7 Q Well, maybe we can fill it in. I don't 7 there would have been asbestos-containing pipe 8 have it right at my fingertips. 8 covering, correct? 9 A I do if you want some help. 9 A Oh, I believe it was, sure. 10 Q All right. Well, if you want to, maybe 10 Q Asbestos-containing, high-temperature 11 between now and tomorrow we could write those dates 11 cement, correct? 12 in. But for my purposes, I want to know what you 12 A I believe so. 13 know about a Goulds on that ship. 13 Q In fact, let's get more accurate 14 A I know nothing about Violet's pumps or 14 because I asked you at your deposition, didn't I, I 15 valves. 15 said to you -- I showed you a 2007 report from 16 Q All right. And whenever Mr. Blackmon 16 Mr. McCaffery, didn't I? 17 would have been on this ship, he would have come 17 A I don't know whether I saw it or not. 18 into contact with asbestos-containing pipe covering 18 Q Well, let me show it to you. You can 19 and high-temperature cement, correct? 19 tell me. I can get the deposition if you want. 20 A He may have. 20 A What do you want me to look at? 21 Q All right. And he would have come into 21 Q Well, I asked you, in connection with Page 536 Page 538 1 contact with a product we called an amosite felt? 1 this report, Mr. McCaffery went on and said -- 2 A Oh, I don't believe there was any 2 MR. FROST: Your Honor, I do have to 3 amosite on the Violet. 3 object to any statements that Mr. McCaffery may have 4 Q What makes you say that? 4 said. It is hearsay. 5 A In 1929? 5 MR. PARROTT: Let me rephrase it. I 6 Q You don't think they used it then? 6 don't think it is hearsay, but let me try and avoid 7 A Amosite wasn't even around. 7 that objection. 8 Q When did they start using amosite? 8 THE COURT: All right. 9 A World War II. 9 BY MR. PARROTT: 10 Q Okay. All right. Now, the next ship 11 that we had is the Ingham, correct? 10 Q In this report, Mr. McCaffery listed 11 what he felt the documents showed were the asbestos 12 A Yes. 12 containing insulation products that would have been 13 Q And this was a cutter, right? 14 A That is right. 13 on the Ingham. 14 Do you see that? 15 Q And that was built in what, the mid 16 '30s? 15 A Yes. 16 Q And I said, did you agree with it. And 17 A That is right. 17 you said, I don't disagree with it. Do you remember 18 Q And you did look at some documents that 18 telling me that? 19 were provided by Mr. McCaffery for the Ingham, 19 A I don't disagree. This could have been 20 correct? 20 some amosite felt, but it was basically an 21 A Yes. 21 85-percent magnesia ship. Court Reporting in Baltimore/Washington Evans Reporting Service 800-256-8410 82 (Pages 535 to 538) Over 20 years of award-winning service Official Trial Transcript 11/18/08 Page 539 Page 541 1 Q Let's go through it. Did the Ingham 1 ones that Mr. Frost asked you about. They were the 2 have in your view 85-percent magnesia pipe covering? 2 Owasco class ships. And they were -- somebody 3 A Probably. 3 referred to them as a 200-some foot cutter in 4 Q And that is 15 percent asbestos? 4 opening. They are actually 255 feet, correct? 5 A That is right. 5 A That is right. 6 Q And it had 85-percent magnesia 6 Q And there were about 12 Owasco class 7 insulation block? 7 cutters; is that fair? 8 A Probably in the inside of the boilers, 8 A Twelve or 13, yes, sir. 9 yeah. 9 Q All right. One of them was the Owasco, 10 Q And amosite asbestos felt? 10 but that's not at issue in this case, right? I 11 A I don't know that. I have not seen 11 mean, it was Owasco class that was one of the ships? 12 anything to indicate that. 12 A That was the first ship, so it is 13 Q All right. 13 called the class. 14 A So I don't know. 14 Q Right. 15 Q All right. You said you didn't agree 15 A The class ship. 16 with the fact that there was high-temperature 16 Q And there were three of them -- there 17 insulation cement, correct? 17 were three of them that you were told Mr. Blackmon 18 A Well, there could be. 18 served on, right? 19 Q All right. And the Ingham likely had 19 A Yes. 20 asbestos cloth? 20 Q The Androscoggin, correct? 21 A Sure, sure. 21 A That is right. Page 540 Page 542 1 Q Okay. And just while I am here, I had 1 Q That's one. And that's the one that we 2 asked you about the Violet, and Mr. McCaffery listed 2 know went to Vietnam? 3 what insulation -- asbestos-containing insulation he 3 A That is right. 4 thought was on the Violet. You said you didn't 4 Q The Mendota, right? 5 disagree with that? 5 A That is correct. He was on Mendota and 6 A I didn't disagree, and I don't agree. 6 Androscoggin at least a couple times. As I said 7 I don't see any documentation from McCaffery that 7 earlier today, he said he had 13 or 14 years on 8 talked about what was on the Violet. I saw zero. 8 those three ships. 9 Q All right. You told me a minute ago 9 Q Okay. And he was in the Coast Guard 20 10 you thought there was asbestos-containing pipe 10 years and six months? 11 covering. 11 A Yes. And he had shore duty several 12 A Probably. 12 occasions. 13 Q Okay. 13 Q Right. 14 A Probably. 14 A So I can enlighten you on the Violet 15 Q And the cement, correct? 15 and the Ingham whenever you would like. 16 A Yeah. I would concede that, sure. 16 Q Okay. All right. 17 Q And cloth probably? 17 A On what he said. 18 A Maybe yes. Maybe no. Maybe no, 18 Q We will do that. Maybe overnight we 19 possibly. 19 will put those dates up here on it. And the other 20 Q All right. Fair enough. 20 one is the Winnebago, correct? 21 Then the other ships at issue were the 21 A That is right. Court Reporting in Baltimore/Washington Evans Reporting Service 800-256-8410 83 (Pages 539 to 542) Over 20 years of award-winning service Official Trial Transcript 11/18/08 Page 543 Page 545 1 Q And these are Indian names, right? 1 "Coast Guard." Have you ever seen that? I am 2 A I believe that to be rivers, Indian 2 referring mostly to Section Three down there that 3 rivers perhaps. 3 references that, in the time of war, the Coast Guard 4 Q I mean, they didn't have Winnebago RVs 4 is under the control of the Navy. 5 back when these were built, did they? 5 A Yeah. This is 1949. Was that the case 6 A I don't think so. 6 in World War II? I certainly don't know from this. 7 Q And these cutters were built and you 7 Q Okay. All right. You told me at your 8 have a list of them, but between -- these three at 8 deposition you were not sure; is that correct? 9 issue, 1943 and 1944, correct? 9 A Oh, yeah. I don't know. 10 A '45, I believe, but close enough. 10 Q Okay. You mentioned that, as part of 11 Q Maybe we can -- I think somewhere we 11 your review in this case, you looked at some 12 can figure that out, but is it fair if I say between 12 correspondence that Mr. McCaffery got from the 13 '43 and '45? 13 Archives and relating to Goulds Pump, correct? 14 A That looks accurate. 14 A Correct. 15 Q And that was during World War II, 15 Q We marked those. Remember I marked all 16 correct? 16 of them as Exhibit 18 to your deposition? 17 A Correct. 17 A I believe that to be the case. 18 Q And the Goulds pumps that you say were 18 Q I will come around and show you. Watch 19 on those vessels would have been put on when the 19 out. I will put these up there. 20 ships were built, correct? 20 A Okay. 21 A That is right. 21 Q Remember these? It was about an inch Page 544 Page 546 1 Q All right. Let me -- 1 thick worth of correspondence. 2 A Let me just make a qualification on 2 A Sure. 3 that if I may. You know, could the Goulds pumps 3 Q I mean, you can flip through them. I 4 have been a new one put on if an old one wore out, 4 had a couple of questions about the correspondence. 5 entirely possible. 5 Take a look at this one. It is 20 November 1943. 6 Q We don't know that. We are only going 6 A Yes. 7 by documents that Mr. McCaffery got from the 7 MR. FROST: Your Honor, before we start 8 Archives and a document you had from a prior case, 8 referring to things, I think we need to mark them as 9 correct? 9 exhibits. 10 A That is right. 10 MR. PARROTT: I don't have a problem 11 Q You were asked some questions about 11 with marking it. 12 whether the Coast Guard was part of the Navy or 12 THE COURT: If they are going to refer 13 whether it was a separate entity. 13 to things or show them to the witness, they probably 14 You are aware that, during time of war, 14 should be marked. Otherwise, the record will be 15 the Coast Guard came under the control of the Navy, 15 devoid of any evidence as to what he was looking at. 16 correct? 16 MR. FROST: Correct. 17 A I am not aware, not familiar with that. 17 Thank you, Your Honor. 18 Q Well, let me show you something maybe 18 MR. PARROTT: I have some stickers in a 19 that will jog that. 19 bag or, if your Clerk has some, I will put a sticker 20 A Sure. 20 on it and mark it. 21 Q Title 14, United States Code, it says, 21 THE COURT: Let me ask you this. Court Reporting in Baltimore/Washington Evans Reporting Service 800-256-8410 84 (Pages 543 to 546) Over 20 years of award-winning service Official Trial Transcript 11/18/08 Page 547 Page 549 1 Thinking about time, we are not going to finish this 1 case? 2 witness today? 2 A Well, not particularly, but I do 3 MR. PARROTT: I will skip to something 3 have -- I do have some drawings and I did have some 4 else. We will come back to this tomorrow. 4 archived docs that I got from a previous case in 5 THE COURT: I was shooting for trying 5 Curtis Bay. 6 like to stop at quarter of, if that works for you. 6 Q One of those was Exhibit 19, wasn't it? 7 That's a good time. I always like to get a witness 7 And we will get back to that because 8 out of here I can if get him out of town, but that's 8 the Court wants me to pre-mark them. I will 9 not going to happen today I guess. 9 pre-mark them. But just to give it context before 10 MR. PARROTT: Someone else has 10 we break for the day, Exhibit 19 was a document 11 questions. 11 that -- or least a draft of a document. You have it 12 MR. LOWERY: No, Your Honor, it is not. 12 sitting right on top. 13 MR. FROST: Wishful thinking. 13 A That is right. 14 THE COURT: Oh, well. I am trying to 14 Q And that kind of listed some of the 15 help everybody out. Shoot for quarter of five, and 15 equipment on these Owasco class vessels? 16 then we will quit. 16 A Yes. 17 MR. PARROTT: All right. I will come 17 Q All right. We are going to mark that 18 back to these. 18 and get back to that tomorrow. 19 MR. MacDONALD: Your Honor, we brought 19 You were given certain Goulds drawings, 20 a little bit of Maine down here. 20 correct? 21 THE COURT: Well, I don't think this 21 A From the McCaffery documents in these Page 548 Page 550 1 qualifies as Maine. 1 two boxes that showed up in late October. 2 (Laughter ensued.) 2 Q Okay. In connection with the McCaffery 3 THE COURT: In Baltimore, it is always 3 report that I showed you, Mr. McCaffery listed eight 4 balmy. 4 types of Goulds pumps that he found were on the 5 BY MR. PARROTT: 5 Owasco class, but in closer review, you corrected 6 Q All right. Now, in connection with 6 him and said there were only really seven different 7 this case -- and as I said, we will get back to 7 types. 8 these correspondence between Goulds and the Coast 8 A I believe that's the case. 9 Guard when I pre-mark them. I will ask you about 9 MR. PARROTT: Okay. Any chance you can 10 them tomorrow. 10 get that list of Goulds Pumps back on the thing? 11 But in this case, you were contacted in 11 MR. FROST: Yeah. It may take a while 12 May of 2008, correct? 12 to power up. 13 A I thought it was May. It was last 13 BY MR. PARROTT: 14 spring. 14 Q Well, while it is powering up, why 15 Q You were initially sent some materials, 15 don't I ask you some questions. There it is. 16 but you got -- you looked at the McCaffery documents 16 MR. FROST: There you go. 17 and I think you told me there were two boxes of 17 BY MR. PARROTT:: 18 them. You got those in October of this year? 18 Q How do you shift that over? 19 A Yeah, late in the game. Very late. 19 MR. FROST: I had to shift it the other 20 Q All right. And before that, you had 20 way the first time. 21 not gone to the Archives to do any research on this 21 BY MR. PARROTT: Court Reporting in Baltimore/Washington Evans Reporting Service 800-256-8410 85 (Pages 547 to 550) Over 20 years of award-winning service Official Trial Transcript 11/18/08 Page 551 Page 553 1 Q All right. You don't have a hammer 1 insulation, but that doesn't mean that some couldn't 2 with you, Captain, do you? 2 have been put on later. 3 A A hammer? 3 Q All right. The Coast Guard could have 4 Q I was going to fix it. 4 thrown insulation on them later, correct? 5 A No, I don't. 5 A It is entirely possible. 6 MR. LOWERY: The old-fashioned way. 6 Q You wouldn't -- 7 Q All right. The first pump up there, I 7 A I have no record of that, no, sir. 8 will read what is missing. 8 Q You mentioned that you doubted the 9 A Yes. 9 manufacturer of these pumps, meaning Goulds, 10 Q Well, before we go, let's see if we can 10 specified insulation, correct? 11 make some general assumptions about the pumps. All 11 A I don't think so. On insulation, that 12 of these pumps that you found to be on the Owasco 12 is right. 13 class, none of them carried steam, correct? 13 Q All right. And none of these 14 A That is correct. 14 insulation -- none of these pumps would have been 15 Q All either carried ambient fluids or 15 insulated when those Owasco vessels were built, 16 fluids that were -- whose temperature was a slightly 16 correct? 17 elevated but not hot? 17 A That's my opinion. 18 A That is right. 18 Q Okay. And when these pumps would have 19 Q All right. So in other words, you have 19 been supplied in this particular case, these were 20 freshwater, saltwater and diesel fuel pumps. All of 20 what we called government-supplied pumps, correct? 21 them were -- let's call them cool pumps; is that 21 A United States government bought the Page 552 Page 554 1 fair? 1 pumps to -- evidently, to get the volume to place 2 A You can. 2 the order. And I am sure there were hundreds 3 Q Well, would you? I mean, is that a 3 ordered. 4 fair -- 4 Q All right. So that the jury 5 A I would just say they were pumps that 5 understands, we have the western -- the West Coast 6 don't have anything unusual heat. 6 shipyard that built some of these, and Curtis Bay 7 Q None of them were hooked in directly to 7 that built some of these ships. 8 a steam system? 8 Goulds didn't sell these pumps to 9 A That is right. 9 either shipyard. They sold them to the federal 10 Q Now, you mentioned that some were -- 10 government who then allocated them to the shipyards 11 these pumps were in the machine spaces, but the 11 for installation on the Owasco class, correct? 12 diesel fuel oil pump, for example, was a portable 12 A I believe that's the case. 13 pump? 13 Q And I think you said that the 14 A That is right. 14 government was the allocator, correct? 15 Q They could wheel that anywhere on the 15 A Yes, sir. 16 ship, right? 16 Q We have heard about the decider, but 17 A That is right. 17 now we have the allocator, correct? 18 Q All right. And you told me in the 18 A In this particular case. 19 deposition that, in your view, none of these pumps 19 Q Okay. And you told me that you can't 20 would have required insulation, correct? 20 say how often in any one of these particular pumps 21 A I believe they were all built without 21 the gaskets would have been changed? Court Reporting in Baltimore/Washington Evans Reporting Service 800-256-8410 86 (Pages 551 to 554) Over 20 years of award-winning service Official Trial Transcript 11/18/08 Page 555 Page 557 1 A No. I gave an opinion today though 1 A No. I have seen some indication of 2 that, particularly on packing, could it be every 2 some John Packing, but I can't tell you whether that 3 month or could it be every three months. I think 3 was a constant or whether it was a one-time thing. 4 either answer may be right. An awful lot depends on 4 Q And just to be fair, John Crane is not 5 the condition of the pumps, the age, alignment 5 related to Crane Co., is it? 6 piping strains, a lot of factors. 6 A That is right. 7 Q Remember when you told me in the 7 Q I just want to clarify that. Now, 8 deposition when I asked you how often a machinist's 8 this, some people showed that in opening. Let me 9 mate would have had to maintain any particular pump, 9 show it to you. 10 you told me you couldn't because it would be pure 10 (Precut gasket displayed to jury.) 11 speculation? 11 A Are you guaranteeing it is not 12 A Well, that is right. I can't give you 12 asbestos, sir? 13 a specific answer. I can tell you that those pumps 13 Q Do you want me to get you a respirator? 14 are maintained, certainly, but for me to say every 14 It is not an asbestos gasket. 15 73 days, I certainly can't do that. 15 A Okay. 16 Q All right. And we know that if these 16 Q That's what is gasket -- a pre-cut 17 ships were built in '43 to '45, based on your 17 gasket looks like, right? 18 understanding, any original gasket or packing that 18 A That's one of many different sizes, 19 would have been shipped with the pump from Goulds to 19 that is right. 20 the government to the shipyard likely would not 20 Q All right. Do you know if this size 21 still be on that pump? 21 would have been used in the machine rooms? Page 556 Page 558 1 A That would be my opinion. 1 A Could that size -- looks like two-inch 2 Q And when the pumps were shipped, as I 2 pipe. 3 understand it, the pumps themselves would have had 3 Q And sometimes you could buy gaskets 4 one gasket and that was for the -- what did you call 4 that came pre-cut that would fit onto things, 5 it, the faceplate on the end plate? 5 correct? 6 A End plate. 6 A Sometime you could buy that, but more 7 Q And the gaskets that would have hooked 7 often in the shipyard. And at sea, it was more 8 these pumps up to whatever the Navy or Coast Guard 8 often hand cut. 9 hooked them up to, they would have been supplied by 9 Q So they would bring out a sheet of 10 the shipyard, correct? 10 gasket material and this would be made from it? 11 A I find no indication of Goulds 11 A That is right. 12 providing the flange piping connection gaskets. 12 Q Are you able to tell whether this came 13 Q And I think you told me at your 13 from a sheet or whether it was pre-cut in the 14 deposition, you don't know who the Coast Guard 14 factory? 15 purchased replacement gaskets or packings from? 15 A It was a sheet, but somebody had a die. 16 A I think you need to clarify that 16 Somebody had a die to cut that. 17 question. 17 Q And a die is, you have circular things 18 Q Do you know what company the Coast 18 and you can put this on a bench and hit it and punch 19 Guard would have purchased replacement gaskets and 19 out the holes? 20 packings that would have been used on any of the 20 A It would be a machine to mass produce 21 Owasco class cutters? 21 those. Court Reporting in Baltimore/Washington Evans Reporting Service 800-256-8410 87 (Pages 555 to 558) Over 20 years of award-winning service Official Trial Transcript 11/18/08 Page 559 Page 561 1 Q If it were bought pre-cut? 1 MR. RADCLIFFE: We have quite a few 2 A If it were bought pre-cut. 2 objections to go over the designated testimony. 3 Q Have you ever seen a gasket cutter? 3 THE COURT: Okay. Let me get my law 4 A Sure, sure. 4 clerk to come out here. 5 Q I have one at the office. If I think 5 MR. FROST: There is no hope of 6 of it, I will bring it tomorrow and we will take a 6 bartering or -- I mean -- 7 look. 7 MR. RADCLIFFE: I don't know. 8 THE COURT: Is that a lot? 8 THE COURT: You all can have a seat. 9 (Laughter ensued.) 9 After 4:45, this door here locks. So if you want to 10 THE COURT: We are going to take a 10 tell the jury to go out Lexington Street. 11 break on that ridiculous note. 11 (Discussion off the record.) 12 MR. PARROTT: Yes. That would be good. 12 THE COURT: What are your issues? 13 THE COURT: Okay. I am always going to 13 MR. RADCLIFFE: Well, I have -- I am 14 tell you this. Just remember, don't talk to anybody 14 ready to discuss Mr. Blackmon and Mr.~Conner. 15 about the case. Don't talk among yourselves about 15 Mr.~Conner is a representative from Goulds. So we 16 the case. Don't research any of the things you have 16 can go through the designations for those. 17 heard discussed regarding this case. 17 I understand some of these may have 18 I am going to give you a break 18 been cleaned up because some of them seem to have 19 overnight and ask you to be back here so that you 19 been typographic. 20 are ready to go at 9:30. All right. Then we will 20 THE COURT: Are we assuming they are 21 get going tomorrow with the second day of this case. 21 going to be played tomorrow? Page 560 Page 562 1 I will see you tomorrow. Have a good 1 MR. FROST: They need to be played 2 evening. 2 tomorrow because I don't have another live witness 3 Oh, one thing I should warn you. I 3 until the following day. 4 gave you my phone number. I know this little snow 4 Now, I have informed them, I guess, of 5 flurry means nothing, but you know how Baltimore is. 5 everyone for this week that I know of. My only 6 I will always warn you throughout this case in the 6 question is, this seems to be an ineffective process 7 event it comes to this. 7 because I don't think we have met and conferred and 8 If there is really bad weather, listen 8 talked about these things. We might be able to 9 to WBAL. And this is the Circuit Court for 9 resolve these issues. 10 Baltimore City. If they announce it is closed, 10 THE COURT: Have you all talked about 11 well, I guess we are not going to be trying the case 11 any of this? 12 that day. Show up the next day when it is not 12 MR. RADCLIFFE: No. We got their 13 closed. Okay. And that's the way it generally 13 designations on Sunday night and Monday morning. I 14 works. 14 was up late last night trying to get through these. 15 You are excused for the night. Thank 15 I just haven't had time. 16 you. 16 THE COURT: Is it worth taking the time 17 (Jury excused -- 4:45 p.m.) 17 to talk? 18 THE COURT: Anything else, Gentlemen? 18 MR. RADCLIFFE: I am happy to talk, but 19 MR. RADCLIFFE: Yes. Plaintiffs want 19 if we can't get through it -- 20 to play some video tomorrow. 20 THE COURT: How long do you think this 21 THE COURT: All right. 21 discussion with will take? Court Reporting in Baltimore/Washington Evans Reporting Service 800-256-8410 88 (Pages 559 to 562) Over 20 years of award-winning service Official Trial Transcript 11/18/08 Page 563 Page 565 1 MR. RADCLIFFE: Rad I don't know. 1 MR. RADCLIFFE: This is Mr. Iola asking 2 MR. FROST: We can go ahead. 2 questions of the Goulds witness. And the objection 3 MR. RADCLIFFE: It is their evidence. 3 here is that he is asking him questions about 4 If we don't finish it tonight, we don't have 4 information and testimony from the discovery 5 anything to do tomorrow. 5 deposition which won't be admitted into evidence. 6 THE COURT: All right. Go ahead. 6 THE COURT: Have you ever had an 7 MR. TANKARD: We also have 7 opportunity to discuss what the Goulds lawyers -- 8 Mr. Bradshaw. 8 the questions that they particularly ask 9 MR. RADCLIFFE: I have not had time to 9 Mr. Blackmon about -- so he says he has not 10 get that yet. 10 discussed it. 11 THE COURT: Who is he? 11 MR. RADCLIFFE: Right. But the 12 MR. TANKARD: He is also a corporate 12 question will be asked and it will be represented to 13 representative of Goulds. 13 the jury that Goulds' lawyers asked questions about 14 THE COURT: He is your guy. 14 his use, his work in and around Goulds pumps while 15 MR. RADCLIFFE: That might be a little 15 he was in the United States Coast Guard. 16 bit too familiar, but -- 16 MR. ZACHAROPOULOS: Your Honor, I can 17 (Laughter ensued.) 17 read that two ways. He doesn't ask him specifically 18 THE COURT: He represents your client? 18 if he has had a chance to ask or talk to Goulds 19 MR. RADCLIFFE: He is a former employee 19 counsel regarding the testimony he gave on the 20 of Goulds, yes. 20 discovery deposition. 21 THE COURT: All right. So what 21 He gave generic pump testimony during Page 564 Page 566 1 questions do you want to object to? 1 his de bene esse. So, you know, that question 2 MR. RADCLIFFE: Some of these were 2 really goes to -- 3 typos so I will try to -- 3 THE COURT: These questions, aren't 4 THE COURT: Well, the witness, you are 4 they sort of no consequence one way or the other? 5 excused. The witness can leave. Just don't talk to 5 MR. ZACHAROPOULOS: According to 6 counsel about your testimony. 6 Goulds' counsel, they are afraid -- 7 (Discussion off the record.) 7 THE COURT: The jury will infer -- 8 THE COURT: Yes. What is wrong? 8 MR. ZACHAROPOULOS: Infer that he used 9 What's wrong? 9 Goulds. 10 (Discussion off the record.) 10 THE COURT: These questions are 11 THE COURT: Do you have a copy? 11 meaningless in any event. They don't mean much. 12 MR. TANKARD: Yes. 12 MR. RADCLIFFE: The second question is 13 MR. RADCLIFFE: I understand some of 13 a little bit more problematic. The first one is, 14 these typos were corrected with the filing this 14 they have not talked, but this is the lawyer 15 morning that I have not seen. 15 testifying -- 16 (Discussion off the record.) 16 THE COURT: Right. 17 MR. RADCLIFFE: So it appears as though 17 MR. RADCLIFFE: -- that the plaintiff 18 the first one is on Page 32, Line 15, Judge. It 18 did something, and there is not going to be any 19 starts at Line 15 on 32 and goes through Line 11 on 19 evidence in the case that that happened. 20 33. 20 MR. ZACHAROPOULOS: There is already 21 THE COURT: Who is asking the question? 21 evidence in the case. Court Reporting in Baltimore/Washington Evans Reporting Service 800-256-8410 89 (Pages 563 to 566) Over 20 years of award-winning service Official Trial Transcript 11/18/08 Page 567 Page 569 1 THE COURT: Well, there is evidence by 1 types of questions beginning on Line 5 through 40, 2 this other witness here about -- that he would 2 Line 7. 3 normally have worked around them because they were 3 THE COURT: The answer is he doesn't 4 in the ship. 4 know. The witness doesn't really answer the 5 MR. ZACHAROPOULOS: Absolutely. 5 question. 6 MR. RADCLIFFE: Opinion testimony. 6 MR. RADCLIFFE: But again, it is the 7 There is no factual statement. 7 problem that the lawyer is stating his fact over and 8 THE COURT: All right. I don't 8 over again three times. Here is what -- 9 understand what good these questions are to you. 9 THE COURT: All right. Leave it out. 10 MR. TANKARD: Your Honor, it is 10 It is pointless. It doesn't help. It just creates 11 basically -- 11 an inference that is not proper, so it is out. 12 THE COURT: Who cares what his lawyer 12 What is next? 13 is talking about? 13 MR. ZACHAROPOULOS: What was that? 14 MR. TANKARD: It is because he is 14 MR. RADCLIFFE: That was 39, Line 5, 15 expressing -- it is a corporate representative who 15 through 40, Line 7. 16 is saying things on behalf of the company. 16 (Discussion off the record.) 17 It is basically laying the foundation 17 MR. RADCLIFFE: Going to page 132. 18 for why he is able to say or not say certain things 18 THE COURT: I am sorry. What page? 19 on behalf of the company. So it is for that. 19 MR. RADCLIFFE: 132. We actually filed 20 THE COURT: What is that? What is the 20 a motion on this. There is a long series of 21 point of these? Eventually, where do we go with 21 questions about requests for admissions to which Page 568 Page 570 1 this? 1 Goulds objected and then denied based on the 2 MR. TANKARD: The point is where we go 2 information. 3 with these is that certain documents do or do not, 3 Iola started to show him the request 4 depending on this witness's interpretation of them, 4 for admissions which are not -- a denial is not 5 place specific Goulds pumps on the three Owasco 5 admissible for any purpose. 6 vessels. 6 Plaintiffs are now trying to admit the 7 THE COURT: I don't think these 7 denial through cross examination. 8 questions are worth -- they don't add anything. 8 THE COURT: So Goulds denied these 9 They are meaningless. I don't even know why you 9 things? 10 asked these questions. 10 MR. RADCLIFFE: We objected to the 11 MR. RADCLIFFE: It wasn't Mr. Tankard. 11 requests for several reasons. There has never been 12 THE COURT: I believe you. 12 any request for a ruling on our objections. 13 MR. RADCLIFFE: Okay. 13 THE COURT: Did you deny it or did you 14 THE COURT: They are just likely to 14 object to it? 15 confuse the jury as much as help them. It is more 15 MR. TANKARD: Both. 16 likely to confuse them. 16 MR. RADCLIFFE: We objected and then 17 MR. ZACHAROPOULOS: Say that again. 17 denied. 18 MR. RADCLIFFE: 32:15 through 33:11. 18 THE COURT: Nothing ever happened with 19 THE COURT: You start with 12. 19 them after that? 20 All right. What else? 20 MR. RADCLIFFE: Nothing ever happened 21 MR. RADCLIFFE: Next is Page 39. Same 21 with them until this deposition. Court Reporting in Baltimore/Washington Evans Reporting Service 800-256-8410 90 (Pages 567 to 570) Over 20 years of award-winning service Official Trial Transcript 11/18/08 Page 571 Page 573 1 THE COURT: What are you trying to do 1 there are three designations of the same guy. 2 with those exactly? 2 Pantaleoni, who is the corporate represent of Crane 3 MR. FROST: Your Honor, if it is a 3 Co., not very long. The two of them are not very 4 denial of a fact, then that is relevant because the 4 long. Other cases. And he was also deposed in this 5 facts were things such as, did these Goulds pumps 5 case, which is probably the longest designation. 6 contain asbestos, and they denied it. And the 6 THE COURT: You are going to play 7 corporate representative says the exact opposite. 7 those? 8 So there is sworn answers under oath that are 8 MR. ZACHAROPOULOS: That's our 9 inconsistent with their testimony of the deponent. 9 intention. 10 THE COURT: Okay. 10 THE COURT: Play them or read them. 11 MR. RADCLIFFE: Requests for admissions 11 MR. ZACHAROPOULOS: Play them. They 12 in Maryland are not sworn answers under oath. And 12 are on video. 13 under the rules a, denial is not admissible. 13 THE COURT: How long do they last? 14 THE COURT: I don't think it is 14 MR. ZACHAROPOULOS: The two will -- 15 admissible. I understand the theory, but I don't 15 probably combined, maybe 20 minutes. The other one, 16 think it is admissible, so take them out. 16 I don't know the time, the one taken in this case. 17 MR. RADCLIFFE: Okay. 17 THE COURT: What else do you have? 18 (Discussion off the record.) 18 Goulds' corporate designee. 19 MR. RADCLIFFE: I will try to get 19 Who else do you have tomorrow? 20 Mr. Bradshaw done tonight, but I have not started 20 MR. FROST: We have the son, Your 21 that yet. 21 Honor. Page 572 Page 574 1 MR. TANKARD: I don't think that will 1 THE COURT: How long does he last? 2 be real late. 2 MR. FROST: Not very long. 3 THE COURT: Where are we on 3 THE COURT: What else do you have? 4 Mr. Blackmon? 4 MR. FROST: These depositions. That's 5 MR. RADCLIFFE: We will talk about 5 why I said we will probably have to do Mr. Blackmon. 6 Mr. Blackmon. I guess they don't plan on showing 6 THE COURT: How long is Mr. Blackmon's 7 him tomorrow. I guess it won't be death by video. 7 tape? 8 (Laughter ensued.) 8 MR. FROST: I don't know what they 9 THE COURT: Okay. Do you have enough 9 are -- 10 to cover the day? 10 MR. ZACHAROPOULOS: Fifty-four minutes. 11 MR. FROST: We should probably do it if 11 MR. FROST: That's just our portion 12 we can. I mean -- 12 though. Trust me. 13 MR. ZACHAROPOULOS: Here is the 13 MR. ZACHAROPOULOS: I just found out 14 problem, Judge. We filed our designations for 14 from Crane's counsel that they have added stuff. 15 Pantaleoni on Saturday, early Sunday morning. I am 15 THE COURT: They have added stuff. 16 waiting for Crane Co.'s counsel to get me either 16 MR. COTTLE: The counter designations 17 counter designations and/or objections to those. I 17 are not a lot. 18 just haven't gotten them yet. 18 THE COURT: All right. So are we going 19 MR. COTTLE: I told him he would get 19 to play Blackmon tomorrow or not? Sounds like -- 20 them to him tonight. 20 MR. ZACHAROPOULOS: If we get it ironed 21 MR. ZACHAROPOULOS: So you know, Judge, 21 out. Court Reporting in Baltimore/Washington Evans Reporting Service 800-256-8410 91 (Pages 571 to 574) Over 20 years of award-winning service Official Trial Transcript 11/18/08 Page 575 Page 577 1 THE COURT: Sounds like we have to. So 1 myself, Judge. 2 you are going to go through with them your other 2 MR. RADCLIFFE: It is a disease, Judge. 3 issues on Mr. Blackmon? 3 It is a disease, Judge. 4 MR. FROST: Correct. 4 MR. FROST: I am simple. 5 MR. ZACHAROPOULOS: Yes. 5 THE COURT: I realize. I saw a great 6 Discussion off the record.) 6 article many, many years ago written by some famous 7 THE COURT: When are you going to do 7 director which I think applies to being a lawyer, 8 that? 8 too, since as a lawyer you are kind of an actor as 9 MR. FROST: Are you guys talking about 9 well as the director of the show, right? 10 Mr. Blackmon right now? 10 And he said, "When you direct a show, 11 MR. TANKARD: Not yet. 11 it is not possible to go too fast, because the 12 MR. FROST: Are you going to? 12 listener, who has no other engagement other than 13 MR. RADCLIFFE: We can. 13 listening, every dead space, they are sitting there, 14 MR. FROST: Are there a lot of 14 I was on a jury once. God save us." 15 objections from you guys? 15 Every dead space is like, "What the 16 MR. RADCLIFFE: We filed a number of 16 hell is going on here?" Every space that didn't 17 objections. 17 keep the case moving, they are sitting there saying, 18 THE COURT: Well, I am just trying to 18 "Why are we sitting here?" You know, so you have to 19 figure out -- 19 go as fast as you can consistent with not screwing 20 MR. FROST: Here is my suggestion, Your 20 the case up. 21 Honor. If we talk tonight, and we could deal with 21 MR. FROST: You know -- Page 576 Page 578 1 Mr. Blackmon's objections first thing in the morning 1 THE COURT: Which is not always easy. 2 -- 2 MR. FROST: As I am sure the Court is 3 THE COURT: Because I will be here. 3 aware, today was a lot of record building for other 4 MR. FROST: -- we can cut them. Maybe 4 issues. 5 I would suggest that, if the Court is agreeable, 5 MR. RADCLIFFE: Judge, can I take you 6 that maybe we have someone come here at 8:30 and we 6 to Florida and have you teach a class on that to 7 could deal with them. 7 judges and lawyers? 8 MR. RADCLIFFE: I really don't think 8 (Discussion off the record.) 9 that there is going to be a lot with Mr. Blackmon 9 THE COURT: All right. 9 o'clock. 10 from my perspective. 10 (Discussion off the record.) 11 THE COURT: You want to say 9 o'clock, 11 THE COURT: Thank you, Guys. Have a 12 the relevant people be here at nine? 12 good evening. 13 MR. RADCLIFFE: That's fine. 13 (The trial was adjourned at 5:15 p.m.) 14 THE COURT: We can roll through them on 14 15 the record and have it cut as we are doing other 15 16 things. I like to keep things moving. 16 17 MR. FROST: I think, Your Honor, after 17 18 that, I have wall-to-wall witnesses, so we are -- 18 19 THE COURT: Stop asking people the same 19 20 questions three times. 20 21 MR. FROST: You know, I am simple 21 Court Reporting in Baltimore/Washington Evans Reporting Service 800-256-8410 92 (Pages 575 to 578) Over 20 years of award-winning service Official Trial Transcript 11/18/08 Page 579 Page 581 1 State of Maryland 1 INDEX 2 Harford County 2 November 18, 2008 3 I, Denise M. Thomas, a Notary Public of the 3 Trial Before Judge Glynn 4 State of Maryland, Harford County, do hereby 4 5 certify that the MORNING SESSION of the 5 OPENING STATEMENTS PAGE 6 above-captioned proceeding took place before me at 6 By Mr. Frost 229 7 the time and place herein set By Mr. Radcliffe 279 8 out. 7 By Mr. Cottle 358 9 I further certify that the proceeding was 8 10 recorded stenographically by me and this transcript 9 WITNESS: CAPTAIN WM. A. LOWELL 11 is a true record of the proceedings. 10 Direct Exam. by Mr. Frost 394 12 I further certify that I am not of counsel 11 Voir Dire Exam by Mr. Parrott 419 13 to any of the parties, nor an employee of counsel, 12 Direct Exam. Resumed 424 14 nor related to any of the parties, nor in any way 13 Cross Exam. by Mr. Parrott 515 15 interested in the outcome of the action. 14 16 As witness my hand and seal this 18th day 15 EXHIBIT DESCRIPTION PAGE 17 November, 2008. 16 (No exhibits marked.) 18 17 19 18 (This transcript consists of pages 211 through 581.) Denise M. Thomas 19 20 My Commission Expires 7-21-10 20 21 21 Page 580 1 State of Maryland 2 City of Baltimore 3 I, Barbara J. Evans, a Notary Public of 4 the State of Maryland, City of Baltimore, do hereby 5 certify that the above-captioned proceedings took 6 place before at the time and place herein set out. 7 I further certify that the examination was recorded 8 stenographically by me, and that this transcript is 9 a true record of the proceedings. 10 I further certify that I am not of counsel 11 to any of the parties, nor an employee of counsel, 12 nor related to any of the parties, nor in any way 13 interested in the outcome of the action. 14 As witness my hand and seal this 18th day 15 of November, 2008. 16 17 18 Barbara J. Evans My Commission Expires 8-8-11 19 20 21 Court Reporting in Baltimore/Washington Evans Reporting Service 800-256-8410 93 (Pages 579 to 581) Over 20 years of award-winning service