Document bBV8B3R7xd9VMVN1LeegY7991

1 UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT 2 EASTERN DISTRICT OF PENNSYLVANIA 3 4 IN RE : P A 01,1 RAILROAD YARD 5 PCB LITIGATION : : ; 6 T h 1 s Docu m e n t Re .1 ates to A1.1 Actions 7 : : NO.86-2229 8 9 M a r c. h 2 , .1. 9 9 2 .1. 0 1 1 V 01, UME IT. 12 1 3 Continued oral d e p o sition o 1 4 ROBERT G. KALEY, P h .D. , held in the offices of 1 5 Klehr, Harrison, Harvey, Branzburg & Ellers, 1401 .1. 6 W a Inut Street, Phi 1 a d e 1 p It ,i a , Pennsylv a n 1. a 1910 2 1 7 commencing at 10:30 a.m. on the above date, before 1 8 Lind a L . Leach, a Registered P r o fess 1. o n a 1 R e p o r t e r 1 9 and N o tary Public for the Co m monwealth o 2 0 Pennsylvania. 21 2 2 KRAUSS, KATZ & ACKERMAN, INC. L e gal Support Services 2 3 4th Floor - Robinson Building 4 2 South 151 h Street 24 Philadelphia, Pennsylvania 19102-2242 (215) 988-9191 KRAUSS, KATZ & ACKERMAN, INC. WATER PCB-00048211 2 1 APPEARANCES : 2 KLEHR, HARRISON, HARVEY, BRANZBURG & ELLERS 3 BY: ARNOLD E, COHEN, ESQUIRE 14 0 1 Wainu t Street 4 Philadelphia, Pennsylvania 19102 Counsel for the Plaintiff 5 BLANK, ROME, COMISKY & McCAULEY 6 BY: PATRICK Mc.DONNELL, ESQUIRE 1 2 0 0 Four Penn Center P1 a za 7 Philadelphia, PennsylvanI a 19 103 Counsel for SEPTA and Penn Central. 8 MARGOLIS, EDELSTEIN, SCHERLIS & 9 KR AF.MER BY: RICHARD MARGULIES, ESQUIRE 1 0 41. h Floor - The Curtis Center Independence Square West ]. 1 P h i. .1. a d e 1 p h .1 a , Pennsylvan i a .1 9 1 0 6 Counsel for Amtra k 12 SWARTZ, CAMPBELL & DETWEILER 13 BY: CHARLES L. POWELL, ESQUIRE 1 7 0 0 La n d. T.11.1. e Build i n g 1 4 P h i 1. a d. e 1 p h i a , Pennsylv a. n i a 1 9 1 1 0 Counsel for Westinghouse 15 LI EBERT, SHORT & HIRSHLAND 1 6 BY: JAMES W, STEVENS, ESQUIRE 19 0], Market Street - 31st Floor 1 7 P hi lade 1p hia, Pennsylv a nia 19103 Counsel for General Ele c t ric 18 WHITE AND WILLIAMS 1 9 BY: MICHAEL H. MALIN, ESQUIRE One Liberty P1 a c e 2. 0 1650 Market Street - Suite 1800 Philadelphia, P e n n s y 1. v a n i a .19 10 3 2 1 Counsel for Monsanto Company 22 23 24 KRAUSS, KATZ & ACKERMAN, INC. WATER PCB-00048212 1 A P P E A R A N C E S (continued) 2 KELLY, MCLAUGHLIN & FOSTER BY; WILLIARD BURNS, ESQUIRE 3 1700 Atlantic Building 260 South Broad Street 4 Philadelphia PA 19110 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 1. 3 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 3 KR A U S S . KATZ R ACKERMAN, INC. WATER PCB-00048213 1 2 INDEX 3 WITNESS 4 ROBERT G . KALEV, P h . D. 5 By Mr. Gotten P A G E NO , 14 6 7 8 NO . EXHIBITS DESCRIPTION PAGE NO . 9 ]. 0 M- 1 1 1 M- 2 Notice of Deposit!o n Fax Tr a.n s m i. 1.1. a .1 13 13 1 2 M-3 13 M- 4 1 4 M-5 1 5 P-1 1 6 P-2 F a x Trans rn i 11 a 1 F a. x T r a n s m i. 11 a 1. F a x T r a ri s ni i 11 a .1 Letter dated 2-28-92 D .i a g r a m 13 13 1. 3 13 56 17 1 8 REQUESTS BY MR. COHEN 19 2 0 PAGE 21 42 22 5 7 LINE 13 24 2 3 80 24 8 4 K R A FJ S S . KATZ & ACKERMAN , INC WATER PCB-00048214 Ka ley, Ph.D. 1 2 (It is hereby stipulated and agreed 3 by and among counsel t h at sealing, 4 filing and certification be waived; 5 and that all objections, except as 6 t o t h e form of the questions, be r e s e rv e d 7 until the time of t ria 1 . ) 8 9 ROBERT G. KALEY, Ph.D., after 1 0 having been previously sworn, was 1 1 examined and testified as f o 1.1 ows : .1 2 .1. 3 EXAMINATION 14 1 5 MR. COHEN; My name is Arnold 1 6 Cohen. I'm co-counsel for the plaintiffs 1 7 in these actions. I want to put o n th e ]. 8 record that: it is now .10:30, and I have 1 9 been back from having a surgical procedure 2 0 at the Hospital o f t he Universit y of 2 1 Pennsylvania for approximately five 2 2 minutes, and I see in my office in my 2 3 conference room Mr. Malin and a wit n e s s 2 4 whose name, I believe, i s Robert G . K a 1. e y, KRATJSS, KATZ & ACKERMAN, INC. WATER_PCB-00048215 K a 1 ey 6 1 II, P h , D, 2 Is that correct, sir? 3 THE WITNESS: Yes. 4 MR, COHEN: I'm at a loss to 5 understand exactly what pro c edure t his is 6 that we are following. I w .i. 1.1 represen t 7 for t h e r ecord t. h a. t, as late as 2:30 or 8 3:00 on Friday afternoon I spoke 9 personally with Mr. Malin , and he to .1. d m e 1 0 at that time he had no in t ention of 1 1 producing this witness t his morning for 1 2 deposition, and that to the contra ry, he 1 3 inte n d e d to f i 1 e a mot i on f o r a p r o t. e c live .1. 4 order to prevent this deposi t .i. on fro rn 1 5 taking place. 1 6 I a rn aware that at approx i m a t e 1 y 1 7 5:00 p.m. he sent a fax message to 1 8 co-counsel, Martin D'Urso, of Kohn , Klein, 1 9 Nash & Graf and a dvised h i. m t h a t he wou 1 d , 2 0 in fact, produce Dr. Ka .1 ey , Thereafter, 2 1 on the same day I spoke wit h Mr. Malin's 2 2 voice mail, an electronic r e c o r d i. n g 2 3 device, and left a message that it would 2 4 be too late now to reschedule the KR A nS S , KATZ & ACKERMAN, INC, WATER PCB-00048216 Ka 1 ey 7 1 deposition that he had indicated only a 2 couple hours before he was not going to go 3 forward with. I understand he has been 4 given a fax transmission also on Friday 5 from Mr. D'Urso indicating that it would 6 be impossible to proceed a t this 1 a t e 7 h o ur. I hope to have a copy of t h a t fax 8 transmission before the proceedings are 9 over , 1 0 I do not intend to conduct a 1 1 f u .1.1 e x a. m i nation of the witness here 1 2 today, I am not prepared. Considerin g 13 Mr. Matin's circumstances, and. considering 1 4 the fact a that when h e indicated the 1 5 w i t n e s s would not b e a. v a .i. lab.l.e, I d i d not .1 6 resch ed u 1 e t h e surgic a 1 procedure tha t. I 1 7 had this morning. My physical health 1 8 doesn't permit me to go forward with the 1 9 deposition, and 1 expect to be advised at 20 t h .i s time, Mr. M a 1 i n , what is your 2 1 posi.ti.on with respect to th i s wi t ness ? 2 2 MR. MAUN; First, let's mark 2 3 t his as M-1 , This is the plaintiff's 2 4 Notice of Deposition for this deposition KRAUS, KATZ & ACKERMAN, INC, WATER PCB-00048217 Ka 1 ey 8 1 which schedules the deposition of Dr. 2 Robert G . K a. 1 e y for March 2nd, 1 992 at 3 3 0:0 0 a . m , at the offices of K .1 e h r , 4 Harrison, Harvey, Branzburg & Ellers. It 5 shou 1 d be clear that: we a ppe a red w .i t h Dr. 6 K a 1 e y at 3. 0 : 0 0 a . m . at this o f f i c e . 7 I would also like to m a r k o n t he 8 record M - 2 , a fax transmit t a 1 f o r in , a 1 o ti g 9 w i t h a 1 e 11. er to me, fro mMartin D ' U r s o , 1 0 reportedly co-counsel for the p .1 a i n t i. f f s 1 1 in this case, in which he advises me in 1 2 the fin a 1 p a ragraph, " F ,i. n ally, p 1 ease 1 3 expect later from John Inne.1.1 .i , Esqui re by 1 4 3:00 t. h i s afternoon setting forth 1 5 plaintiffs' bases for con tinuing his 1 6 deposition," referring, of course, to Dr, 3. 7 K a 1 e y . 3. 8 At 3:06 I received a fax 1 9 transmission which shall be marked as M-3 2 0 which John F. Innelli says, "Please be 2 1 advised that Dr. Kaley's forthcoming 2 2 deposition is necessitated by inter" alia, 2 3 t, h e EPA ' s October, 19 9 1 determination that 24 planar P C B molecules have the same KRAIISS , KATZ & ACKERMAN, INC, WATER_PCB-00048218 Ka 1 ey 9 1 toxicity of furans and dioxins. See, 2 Volume 56, Fed. Reg. Section 196, pages 3 501-02-04, dated 10/9/91. Given that 4 Monsanto has previously acknowledged that 5 furans are h i gh 1 y toxic and the FJP A ' s 6 recent determ i. n a t i. o n t h a. t p .1 a nar P C B 7 jn o .1 e c u les are the equi v a .1 eut of. furons, 8 the r e are new 1 i. n e s of i. n quiry regar d 3. n g 9 the toxicity of P C B s that did not exist in 1 0 November of 19 9 0 , Inasmuch as Dr. Ka ley .1 1 was tendered by Monsanto a s t h e em p.1 oy e e l 2 w ho had conducted the quantitative .1 3 analysis of polychlorinated b3. phenyls f or 1 4 Monsanto, it 3. s appropriate to proceed 1. 5 with his deposition on March 2nd, 1992," .1 6 A ft er receipt o f that 1 7 1 e t ter and reviewing it, I sen t f: a x e s to 18 e v e i' y o n e , and I have here t h e fax .1. 9 transmissions which will be marked M - 4 2 0 MR , COHEN; Who is "everyone " ? 2 1 MR , M A LIN : A11 counsel. 2 2 MR . COHEN; Y o u d. 3. d n't s end m e 2 3 one. 2 4 MR . MALIN: Mark as M - 4 the fax KRAOSS, KATZ & ACKERMAN, INC, WATER PCB-00048219 Ka 1 ey 10 ]. transmission sent to K .1. e h r , Harrison, 2 Arnold. Cohen. 3 MR. COHEN; When? 4 MR . MALIN; Date and time . 4:49 5 p . m . is t hi e one that got to you. 6 MR , COHEN: I don't ha v e a copy 7 of it. I was here S aturday, and I d .i d n ' t 8 see it. e i t. h e r 9 MR . MALIN: And to Harold Kohn, 1 0 mark as M- 5 , Received 4:51. 1 1 Let the record also s t a t e 1 2 that I d i. d. t e 1 1 Mr. Cohen t ha t. un .1 e s s he 1 3 could give m e some r e a s o n w hi y t hi e r e wa s 1 4 someth i. n g new that he needed to get from 1 5 Dr. Ka 1ey, I would file such a motion f o r 1 6 a protective order, That d i. d / .i. n f a c t, ]. 7 happen, I was also advised by Mr, D ' Urso 1 8 that we would get, as these letters show, 1 9 such information by 3:00, 2 0 At 3:06 I received the letter 2 1 which is from Mr, Inne.ll i , which is so 2 2 marked, which indicated t h a. t the r e i s a 2 3 line of inquiry which was not explored 2 4 before, I, therefore, agreed to produce KRAUSS, KATZ & ACKERMAN, INC. WATER PCB-00048220 K a .1 e y 11 1 Dr. K a .1 e y as soon a s I can make the 2 appropriate arrangements with Dr. Kaley. 3 Dr. Kaley is here. 4 MR. COHEN: Did you receive my 5 voice mail message, Mr. Mai in? 6 MR. M A L IN : I got y o xi r voice 7 mail message this morning, 8 MR. COHEN: I see. 9 MR, MALIN: Dr. Kaley is here. 10 I also informed Mr. D'Urso when he did 1 1 c a .1.1 me and say that h e didn't t. h i n k i t 1 2 w o u 1 d be possible to go f orward w i t h the 13 d epos ition, that i t was. nonetheless, too 1 4 1 a t e t. o cancel it, and we have dec i d ed to 1 5 go forward with it. You had noticed it. .1. 6 You have no reason to call it off. 1 7 MR, COHEN: We didn't cal 1 it 1 8 off. 1 9 MR. MALIN: There was no motion 2 0 for a protective order filed, I said that 2 1 if you could come up with something 2 2 d i f f e r e n t, than that f o r which y o u h a d 2 3 deposed him before so that it wouldn't be 2 4 a waste of his time and ours, we would KRA11SS, KATZ & ACKERMAN, INC. WATER PCB-00048221 Ka 1ey .1 2 1 produce him, You have come up with 2 something that looks apparently different 3 and upon which he was not deposed. I 4 agreed to produce him. He is here. So, 5 please go forward. 6 MR. COHEN: I am unaccustomed to 7 t. his practice whereby an attorney 8 represents at 3:00 p.m. on Friday 9 afternoon that he does not intend to 1 0 produce a w .i. t ness and intends t o file a 1 .1. motion for protective order, to have t. h a t 1 2 same attorney t h e n at: 10 m .i n u t e s to 5 in 1 3 the evening do a reversal of direction 1 4 without contacting counsel in order to 1 5 dete.rmi.ne w h e t h e r the previously-scheduled .1 6 d e p o s i t i o n would be convenien t i n .1. i g 111: o f 1 7 his change in position. Consequently, I .1. 8 object to this deposition. However, I 1 9 will proceed wi t h cer t a.i n areas o f: inquir y 2 0 since the witness is here, 2 .1 I n light of my health and in 2 2 1 i gh,t of the circumstances of the 2 3 deposition, I will reserve all. rights to 2 4 recall this witness as is required. KRAUSS, KATZ & ACKERMAN, INC. WATER_PCB-00048222 Ka 1 ey 13 1 I also want to put on the record 2 a copy of a .letter that was sent. 1 a s t 3 Friday which I had alluded to earlier. 4 The fax t r ansmission at the top indi c. ates 5 March 2nd and the time that it was s e n t to 6 me by telecopy, but it was sent on F r i. d a y 7 to Mr. Ma 1 .i n i nd 1. eating our objection. 8 You can call that whatever y o u 9 would like. Plaintiff's 1 or whatever, 1 0 (Whereupon, P-1 was marked for .1. .1 identification. ) 1 2 MR, M A I, IN : I would .1. i k e t h e 1. 3 record to show that Mr. Innell .i demanded 1 4 at 3:06 that we produce Dr. Kaley here on 1 5 March 2nd. We have done so. 1 6 Does Mr. Innell.i represent the 1 7 plaintiffs, Mr. Cohen? 1 8 MR, COHEN: You know he is one 1 9 of the counsel for the plaintiffs, Mr. 2 0 M a1in. Y o u are a w a r e of that, 2 1 MR. M A LIN : Fine. 2 2 (Whereupon, the exhibits were 2 3 marked M-l through M- 5 for 2 4 i d e n t i f i. c. a t i on.) KRAIJSS, KATZ & ACKERMAN, INC. WATER PCB-00048223 K a. 1 e y 14 1 2 EXAMINATION 3 4 BY MR. COHEN: fi Q, Dr. K a 1e y, when were you first advised 6 that the plaintiff 1 s w i s h to r esume your depos i t i. o n 7 had happened? 0 A , Seems to in e about a week ago, 9 week-and-a-half ago. 1 0 Q . Did you indicate to Mr, Mai .1 n a t t h a t 1 1 time that you would be available to come to 1 2 Philadelphia on March 2nd to continue your 1 3 deposition? .1. 4 MR . MALIN; Objection, 1 5 MR . COHEN: What's the 1 6 the objection ? 1 7 MR. M A LIN: Discussions between 1 8 client and counsel. 1 9 MR. COHEN: Are you contending 2 0 that w he t h e r the witness indicated his 2 1 avail a b i 1 i t y i s s o in e t h i. n g t h at's 2 2 privileged? Are you contending that's a 2 3 work product? 24 MR. MALIN: That's my position. KRAUSS, KATZ & ACKERMAN, INC, WATER PCB-00048224 Ka 1 ey 15 .1 MR, COHEN: So, you are not 2 going to a 1 low t his w i. tnes s to tell me 3 whether h e was advised to come here 4 earlier and whether those arrangements 5 were ever changed or suspended? 6 MR. MALIN; The nature of our 7 conversation has to do with the 8 attorney-client p rivi1e g e, 9 MR, COHEN: So, you are 1 0 contendi n g that a 11 of that i. s 1 1 privileged? 1 2 MR . MALIN: That's all 1 3 priviledged, 1. 4 MR, COHEN: Well, I will put on 1 5 the record the questions. You can object 1 6 to each one of t h em , 1 7 BY MR. COHEN; 1 8 Q, Were you ever advised. Doctor, that the 1 9 deposition in question was not going to take place 2 0 on March 2nd as originally scheduled? 2 1 MR. MALIN; Objection. Well, 2 2 no. Strike that. You can answer' that, 2 3 THE WITNESS; I was advised that 2 4 there was th a t possibility. KRAfJSS, KATZ & ACKERMAN, INC, WATER PCB-00048225 I Ka 1 ey 16 .1 BY MR, COHEN: 2 Q . I'm sorry. 3 A. I was advised that there was a 4 possibility t h a t that would happen 5 Q . When did you receive that advice, sir? 6 A . L a t e Friday afternoon. 7 Q . S o , the first time y o u were ad vis e d that 8 the d e p o sition may not take p1 ac e wa s on F rid ay 9 afternoon? .1. 0 A . That 's correct. .1 1 Q . So , from the time that y u were told 1 2 that the deposition was going to take place unti .1 13 1 a t e F r i. d a y afternoon, you were prepared to come to .1 4 Philadelphia today and give a deposit .i o n ? 1 5 A. That's correct, 1 6 Q . At what time on Friday afternoon were 1 7 you advised that the deposition would no t. t a k e .1 8 p .1 ace, may not take place? 1 9 A . It was - - as I recall, 1. t was around 4:30 20 St. Louis time. I don't recall exactly. 2 1 q. Then did you receive further information 2 2 that the deposition would, in fact, go forwar d 2 3 t oda y ? 24 A , Yes . KRAIJSS, KATZ E, ACKERMAN , INC. WATER PCB-00048226 Ka 1 ey 17 1 Q When was that? 2 A . Shortly thereafter. About 5:00 S 3 Louis time, I believe . 4 Q , Were you in St. Louis at the time when 5 you had these conversations? 6 A . Yes. I w a s . 7 Q , Were they conversations with Mr. M a 1in ? 0 A. Yes, they were, 9 Q , When was the last t i. m e you had a .1. 0 conversation with Mr. M a 1in r e g a r ding t h e subject 1 1 deposition p r i. o r to leaving St, I. o u i s f o r 1 2 Philadelphia? .1. 3 A. It was a phone call Friday evening a bo ut .1 4 5:00 that we just spoke of. 1 5 Q. How late were you in your office on 1 6 F r i. day? ]. 7 A , U n t i 1 about 4:30 St. Louis time , 1 8 Q So, i n other words, you had a 1re ad y left ,1 9 you spoke t o M :r . M a 1 .i n at 5:00 p , m ? 20 A , That ' s correct, 2 1 Q - Wh ere did he reach you? 2 2. A , At my home , 23 Q 2 4 time? So, h e had your home number a t that K R A t.T S S , KATZ & ACKERMAN, INC. WATER PCB-00048227 Ka 1ey 18 1 A . Yes, he d i. d . 2 Q When did you leave St . L o uis to come to 3 Philadelphia ? 4 A . Yesterday afternoon. 5 Q . So, unti 1 yesterday a fternoon, you were 6 at your home i n St. L o uis? 7 A . I was. 8 Q . And your office .is in S t. Louis 9 A , Yes, it i. s , 10 Q. 1 1 office? Or your place of work , if .i t 1. s not an 1 2 A . Yes, it i s . 1 3 Q. So, at any time up until yesterda y 1 4 afternoon, i f: y ou h ad had the d e p o s i tion cancelled 1 5 or rescheduled, it would not have inconvenienced you 1 6 terribly; is that correct? 1 7 A , I could have not come. That's correct. 1 8 Q . Well, as I understand it, unt i .1 1 9 mid-afternoon Friday, you didn't know whether you 2 0 were coming or not? 2 1 A. Well, I assumed I was. I had been told 2 2 I was. 2 3 Q . But you also knew there was a question 2 4 t hat y o u may not be c oming? KRANSS, K AT 7 S ACKERMAN, TNC, WATER PCB-00048228 K a .1 e y 19 1 A. That's 2 Q . Now, I assume that you have work 3 available to you in your office or laboratory a t 4 your place of employment that you could be 5 performing this m o rning instead of being h e r e ? 6 A. Yes. That's correct, 7 Q, You still, are employed, by Monsanto 8 Company? 9 A . I am. .1. 0 Q Is tha t Monsanto Chemical C o rn p a ti y ? 1 1 A . No , 1. 2 Q . Who is Monsanto C h e m .i c a 1 Company? 13 A , Monsanto Chemical C o m p a ti y is one o f t ti e 1 4 operatin g division s of Monsanto Company, 1 5 Q Are you employed, then, by what would be .1. 6 a p a r e n t company? .1. 7 A . I'm not sure of the exact term. I'm in 1. 8 t h e corpora t e pa r t of Monsanto. 1 9 Q, Do you know the relationship between 2 0 Monsanto Company and Monsanto Chemical Company? 2 1 A . Well, Monsanto .is basic a .1 .1 y the o v e r a 1.1 2 2 corporation. Monsanto Chemical Company is one of 23 the operating divisions, 24 Q . Have you ever been employed by Monsanto KRAUSS, KATZ R ACKERMAN, INC WATER_PCB-00048229 Ka 1ey 20 1 Chemical Company? 2 A . Not t he Monsanto Chemical Company t ha t 3 exists now, no 4 Q I'm not s u r e I understand t. h a t answer . 5 A . Let me clarify, When I was f1r s t 6 employed by Monsanto, I j oined what was then called 7 Monsanto Industrial Chemical Company. There have 8 been several reorganizations, I guess is the easiest 9 term to use, since that time. So that the chemica 1 1 0 comp a n y as it exists now, I have not be en employe d 1 1 by, but I was originally employed by the indus tri. a 1 1 2 chemical company. 1 3 Q . W a s t h e ind u s t r i a .1 c h e m ica.1 comp a n y t h e 1 4 manufacture!' of PCBs ? .1. 5 A . Some parts of time, yes, when I was 1 6 employed there. Yes, 1 7 Q - Who do you understand to be th e 1 8 manufacturer of the PCBs, other than the industrial 1 9 chemical company that you just referred to under the 2 0 general, aegis or umbrella of Monsanto Company? 2 1 A . Well, I w o u .1 d just say Monsanto Company 2. 2 at t h i. s time, and at the time I was employed, the 2 3 industrial chemical company. I don't know the exact 2 4 organization prior to that and w h a. t divisions or not KRAUSS, KATZ & ACKERMAN, INC WATER PCB-00048230 Ka 1 ey 21 1 that they would have been under. 2 Q. But it all would have been under the 3 general corporate umbrella, to your understanding, 4 of Monsanto Company? 5 A . That ' s correct. 6 Q . Your current employer? 7 A , Yes, That's correct. 8 Q - And the current employer , t h a t i s , 9 Monsanto Company, has remained sort o f t h e umbrel1a 1 0 or, I do n ' t know. p ar e n t c o m p a n y of a 1.1 o f the s e 1 1 divisions a. s long a s they have bee n manuEacturing 1 2 PCBs, as far as you know; is that right? 13 A , That's correct, 1 4 Q . What, is your present job descrip t ion, J. 5 sir? 1 6 A. Job description? 1 7 Q, Yes. What do you do? 1 8 A . I basically have responsibility for a .1 9 source of technical information for various 20 divisions within the company, 2 1 MR, MALIN : I'm going to object 2 2 because he gave a full and complete job 2 3 description in his last deposition. 2 4 MR. COHEN: That was in 1990. KRATJSS, KATZ & ACKERMAN, INC, WATER_PCB-00048231 Ka 1ey 22 1 I'm asking him about today, 2 MR. M A LIN: Has your job 3 description (changed si. nee 199 0 , Mr. Ka ley ? 4 MR. COHEN: Do y o u m i n d i f I as 5 m y q u e s tions? 6 MR. MAUN r W o u 1 d y o u a n swer -- 7 MR. COHEN; Do you wan t t. o 8 conduct a d e p o s i t, i o n firs t ? I .11 be g1 a d 9 t o s 1.1 here and defer an d let y o u a s k a .11 .1 0 the questions y ou wan t and pick up 1 1 afterwards , But if you don't want to do 1 2 that, don't interrupt me. 1 3 MR , M AI, IN ; Go ahead. 1 4 MR . COHEN: Thank you. 1 5 BY MR, COHEN: .1 6 Q. You just gave us your job descrip tion s, .1 7 sir. What's your present job title? 1 8 A. Director of environment a 1 affairs, .1. 9 Q , How does that, differ from the title of 2 0 manager of environmental technical support? 2 1 A, Basically, it is the manager of 2 2 environmental t e c hnical support r e p o r t s t o t h a t 2.3 division o r t o t h a t title now. 2 4 Q. So, as of September' of 1986, you became KRAUSS, KATZ & ACKERMAN, INC, WATER PCB-00048232 Ka 1 ey 23 1 manager of environmental technical support for 2 Monsanto Company, and you are now the director of 3 environmental affairs? 4 A. That's correct, 5 Q , Someone else .is the manager of 6 e n v i r o n m e n t a. 1 tec h n i. c a 1 support? 7 A . That's correct. 8 Q . When d i. d you change positions? 9 A . First', o f February. 1 0 Q ' 1 9 9 2? 1. 1 A . Yes, sir. .1 2 Q In November of 19 9 0 , were you the 1 3 m a nager of environmental technical support a t 1 4 Monsanto Company? 1 5 A . Yes, sir. 1 6 Q Did you have any .interim post betwee n 1 7 November of ' 9 0 and February :1st, '92? 1 8 A . F o r about a year. from February of '91 1 9 to February of ' 9 2 I was direc t or -- o r environmen t a .1 2 0 technical s u p p o r t d. i r ector , 2 1 Q So , you went, from m a riage r o f 2 2 environmenta 1 t echn i c a 1 support to director of: 2 3 e rivir o n m e n t a .1 technical sup p o r t to your presen t 2 4 titie? KRAllSS, KATZ R ACKERMAN, INC. WATER_PCB-00048233 Ka 1 ey 24 1 A . That's correct. 2 Q Have your reporting responsibilities 3 changed during that t i. me peri o d ? 4 A . Yes . 5 Q W h o held the j o b t h at you hold now back 6 h November of '90? 7 A . Dr. William McCarville, 8 M - C - C - A --R-V-I-L-L-E. 9 Q . Is he s ti11 wit h Mon sa n t o Comp a n y ? 1 0 A . 0 n ti1 April 1st, yes. 1. 1 Q Then is he retiring? 1 2 A . Yes , 1 3 Q . How old is Dr. McCarville? 1 4 A . Early 60s. I don't know exact 1y. 1 5 Q - Who held the post that you held as t h e 1 6 lute r 1. m post in November of 1990, director of .1 7 environmen t a .1 t e c hn ,i c a .1 suppor t ? 1. 8 A . No one. 1 9 Q - It didn't exist? 2 0 A . That's correct. 2 1 Q Who holds it now? 2 2 A , No one. 2 3 Q Doesn't exist a g ain ? 2 4 A . That's correct. KRAUSS, KATZ & ACKERMAN, INC. WATER PCB-00048234 Ka 1 ey 25 .1 Q Would it be fair to say t h a t .i t was a n 2 j. n t, e r 1. m post created for you as you moved up to your 3 present post? 4 A. That's correct, 5 Q. Now, as I understand it, you j oin ed 6 M o nsan t o Company so m e t i m e in .1. 973 ; i. s t h a t r.i.g h t ? 7 A , Yes. It is, 8 Q, You hadn't beenemployed with them prior 9 to tha t tiwe? 1 0 A, That's correct, 1 1 Q. You have no significant background or 1 2 knowledge or experience with PCBs prior to December 1 3 1 9 7 3? .1 4 A. That's J. 5 Q, Your previous posts, your previous 1 6 education really didn't; involve very much study o r 1 7 analysis of PCBs? 1 8 A . Of PCBs, that's correct, 1 9 Q . Now, let me ask y ou, sir. Are you 20 familiar wit h the chemical compound known as epoxide 2 1 dicyclo-di.epoxy carboxy late? 22 A , I am not. 2 3 Q, Have you ever heard of it before? 2 4 A . Not that I can r e c a 1.1 . KRAUS 5, ICATZ & ACKERMAN, INC. WATER PCB-00048235 Ka 1 ey 26 .1 Q . Do you remember .in your deposition i n 2 November of 1990 I showed you a document called 3 pyranol compositions? We marked it: as Kaley Exhibit 4 3. 5 A , Vaguely. I remember you showing me some 6 documents, yes, or something, 7 Q , D o y o u w a nt t o t a k e a look a t it a g ain ? 8 I just want to make sure I have a copy before I hand 9 y o u the copy 1: h a t I have. .1 0 (Handing over document . ) 1 1 A, (Witness reviewing document.) 1 2 Q. Do you recall now that I showed you that 1 3 document marked as Kaley-3 before? 1 4 A. I don't have a s p e c1fic recollection, 1 5 but it is marked. I assume you did, yes, 1 6 Q. You do see the compound that I referred 1 7 to, epoxide dic y c1o-die p o x y carboxyl ate, on that 1 8 documen t? .1. 9 A , Ido. 20 Q . Apparently, it also has t h e.i n i t i a .1 s E R L 2 1 4221. I don't know what they mean. Do you know 2 2 what they mean? 2 3 A, No. I don't, 24 Q. The manufacturer is Union Carbide, a t KRAUSS, KATZ & ACKERMAN, INC, WATER PCB-00048236 Ka 1ey 27 1 ]. e a s t it is i n d i c a t. e d on this document? 2 A . That .is one of t h e manufacturers , yes. 3 Q, Also Ciba-Gei. gy? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q, Since the last deposition or your last 6 appearance h er e for a depo s 1.1 ion , have you ha.d 7 oc ca s ,i on t o f ind out any t hing a bou t epox .i. d e 8 d. i. c yclo-di epoxy carb o xy late ? To make i t. e a s ier tor 9 t he court: reporter, why don't we agree to c a 11 1.1 1 0 EDDC. 1 .1. A . I have not. .1 2 Did you make any inquiry to find out 1 3 what it was? 1 4 A , No. I did not. 1 5 Q. You have given depositions in P C B casei 1 6 before, other than in November of '90 and today? 1 7 A . I have. 1 8 Q Anybody ever ask you about EDDC? 1 9 A . Not that I can rec a 1.1 . 20 Q 2 1 fluid? Do you know why it w a s .i n d i. e .1 e c. t. r i c. 2 2 A . I could - - I. have an i d ea o f why i t wa s 2 3 there, yes. 2 4 Q. Why was it there? KRAUSS, KATZ & ACKERMAN, INC, WATER PCB-00048237 Kaley 28 1 A. It was some sort of a scavenger, either 2 electron or a c h 1 orid e scavenger. 3 Q . Preven t the formation o f: hydrochlo r i c 4 acid during the use of t he di.ei.ec t r i c flu i. d :i. n t h e 5 t r a nsformer or something like th at? 6 A, I don't think it would be so much as to 7 prevent that, as i t w o u .1 d be if t h a t h a p p e n e d , i. t 8 wou 1 d react with the free ions that were produced i. n 9 t h a t formation and remove t h e m fromt hi e so .1 u t i o n . 1 0 Q . What's it s a y , p o i nt - - w h a t ' s i. t , one 1 1 eighth of one pence n t o f t hi e solu t ion? 1 2 A . For the 1 u i d s in w h i c. h i t w a s present, 1 3 yes, 14 Q. For the fluids in which it was p resent 1 5 at the level of one eighth of one percent, how many 3. 6 parts per mi .1 .1 ion is one e i g It t h of: one p e rcen t ? l 7 A. 1,250. 1 8 Q. Parts per million? .1 9 A. Parts per million. 2 0 Q. Prior to using the EDDC,apparently in 2 1 this pyranol fluid tin tetraphenyl was use d. a. s a 22 scavanger? 2 3 A . From t h i s particular documen t , t It a t 2 4 a ppears to be the case. KRAITSS, KATZ & ACKERMAN, INC. WATER PCB-00048238 Ka 1 ey 29 ] Q. Well, do you have any information to the 2 c. o n t r a r y ? 3 A . I do not, 4 Q. Now, who manufactured these pyranol 5 fluids for General El ectri c Company during the 11. m e 6 period shown, do you know? 7 MR. MALIN: Objection to the 8 form of the question unt i .1. we find, o u t 9 w h a t we mean by " m anufactured , " A n s w e r .i t 1 0 if you think you understand it. .1. 1 THE WITNESS: Monsanto 1 2. manufa.ctured the PCBs . 1 3 BY MR, COHEN: 1 4 Q, Do you know who actually mixed or 1 5 blended, or whatever p h r as e y o u w a n t to use, the .1. 6 fluid that end ed up being called pyrano .1 ? 1 7 A , At some po i n t s i n t i.me , Monsanto blende d. 1 8 some of the fluids. I don't know which specific 1 9 ones. It is my understanding that General Electric 2 0 also did some o f t h e blendin g themselves, 2 1 Q, Now, if Monsanto was man uf a c turing or 2 2 blending the fluid, whatever you w a n t to c a .1 .1 i t, 2 3 according to a General Electri. c spec, and the spec 2 4 was as presented on K a 1e y-3, would Monsanto have KRAFISS , KATZ & ACKERMAN, INC, WATER_PCB-00048239 K a ley 30 I added EDDC? 2 A . I don't: know the answer to that. 3 q, Well, who would know the answer to t h a t ? 4 A, Who would know the answer to t h a t ? 5 Q . Yes, 6 A . Whoever was r esponsible for e ,i. ther doi n g 7 the blending or whoever was responsible at General. 8 El 1 e e trie for doing the spec. 9 Q . Well, d i d Monsanto manuf a c t: u r e the ]. 0 product or blend the product for General Elec t r.ic .1 n 1 1 accordance w i. t h the spec i. f ications prov i d e d. b y 1 2 G eneral E1ectric? .1. 3 A . I don ' t have direct know .1 edg e of t h a t , 14 Q 1 5 have? Wei 1 , what indirect k nowiedge d. o you 1. 6 A , W e 11 , I a s s u rn e t h a t M o n s a n t o a n d G e n e r a .1 1 7 Electric had some a g r e e in e n t on what Mo n s anto w a s to 1 8 do prior to shipping product under the pyranol 1 9 label, I d o n't know w h e t h e r that i n c. 1 uded all of 2 0 the blending, some of the blending, a 11 of t. h e 2 1 ingredients, some of the ingredients. I just don't 2 2 know t h e answer , 2 3 Q Well, tell me who .in the Monsanto 2 4 Company organization can answer those questions or f K R A 11 S S ,, KATZ & ACKERMAN, INC. WATER PCB-00048240 Kaley 31 i me . 2 A. My best guess would be William 3 Papageorge , He i s a retiree, but he i. s , as far as 3. 4 know, the most knowledgeable abou t those k i. n d s of 5 questions . 6 Q . Mr. Papageorge was not involved .i n t h e 7 man u f a c t u. r i n g division of Monsanto Chemical Com p any 8 a t th a t time ; was he ? 9 A . Well, he works at t. h e chemical c o rn p a n y .1 0 under' which the manufacturing was done. He wa s n ' t 1 1. a t t li e p 1 a n t . .1 2 Q . Well, he was a plant: manager' a t Sage t 1 3 f o r a while; wasn't he? 14 A. I don't know if it was Saget o:r n o t , 11 1 5 may have been. My recollection was that 1t wa s .1. 6 Queenie, He was in Anastan for a while. .1 7 Q. He was a plant manage r ? 1 8 A That ' s 1 9 Q At a t plan t ? 2 0 A . At lea s t one. 2 .1. Q . Well, who would have known what was 22 being done at a .11 the plants so as to answer- the 2 3 question for me how Monsanto blended the product for 24 General Electric known as pyranol, what they KRAUSS, KATZ & ACKERMAN, INC. WATER_PCB-00048241 Ka 1ey 32 1 a. d d. e d. ? 2 MR. MALIN: Mr. Cohen, the 3 witness has a 1r e a d y told you t h at h e 4 doesn't -- that he e .i t h e r doesn't know o r 5 he has given you his best guess. You are 6 asking him questions which are not w i t h .i n 7 h i. s a i' e a. of e x p e r t i s e . He i s an 8 analytical chemist, which you are aware 9 of . .1 0 BY MR. COHEN: 1 1 Q Is t hat your answer, Doc t o r ? 1 2 A . My answer is I hav e g i ve n you Mr 1 3 W i .1 .1 .i a m Papageorge's n a m e . He .i s the m o s t 1 4 lcnowledg e a b1e a b o u t these issues and of thos 1 Pi know, and that's my answer, yes. 1 6 Q. Other than Mr. Papageorge, can you tell 1 7 me a name of a Monsanto Company representative w h o 1 8 would have either the personal i nfor m a t. i. o n o r t h e .1. 9 records that could reflect for me the names of the 2 0 individuals who know wha t products Monsanto was 2 1 putting out the d o o :r ? 2 2 A. I wouldn't know whose name to venture, 2 3 Q . Your present 'job, are you required to 2 4 know the toxicity of th e products that you are KRAUSS, KATZ & ACKERMAN, INC. WATER PCB-00048242 Ka 1ey 33 1 prod.uc ing? 2 A . I'm required to be able to understand 3 toxicolo g i. cal 1 i terature . I don' t h a v e spe c 1 f i. c 4 knowledge, no, 5 Q . Have you ever done anything to d e t e r rn i n e 6 whet h e r E D D C h ad toxic pro p erti.es e i t h e r to rn a n , 7 a nim a Is or in t h e environmen t ? 8 A , Have I person a 1 1 y ? No, 9 Q , Since you were here .in November' of 1990, 1 0 d id you do anything to find o u t i. f t here was any 1 1 1 i t e r a t ure availab 1 e i. n indie a ting t ti e toxic 1 2 properties of EDDC? 1 3 A, I did not, 1 4 MR. MALIN: The question ha s 1. 5 already been asked and answered, but 1 6 a n s w e r i. t a g a i n . 1 7 THE WITNESS: I d .i d not, 1 8 BY MR, COHEN: 1 9 Q. Have you heard of compound called 2 0 epoxide 201? 2 .1. A. I do not believe so. 2 2. Q, Pa r d on? 2 3 A, No, sir, 2 4 Q, How about 3, 4-epoxy-6-methyl- KRAUSS, KATZ & ACKERMAN, INC. WATER PCB-00048243 Ka 1ey 34 1 cyclohexylmethyl-3,4-epoxy-62 roethylcyclohexylcarboxylate? 3 A. 4 no . I don't have specific, knowledge of that, 5 MR. M A LIN ; Is that a .1.1 o n e 6 c. h e m ical or did you say i t t w i. c e ? 7 MR. COHEN: No. I think that it 8 is actual .1 y o n e . 9 MR. MALIN: Okay. 1 0 BY MR. COHEN: 1 1 Q Is it more than one, Doctor ? 1 2 A . I have n o i. d e a , 1 3 Q You have no i d e a ? 1 4 A . I a s s u m e i. t i. s one. I d .i. d n ' t hear 1 5 anything that would lead me to believe that it was 1 6 two. 1 7 Q. That's what I thought, but your counse1 1 8 i. n d. 1. c a t e d . Maybe he had spec 1. a 1. knowledge o n t h i. s . 1 9 He has chemical training from what we know. 2 0 A, I don't know, 2 1 Q. Have you ever had occasion to look at 2 2. t. he collection of docume n ts that Monsanto m a i. n t a i. n s 2 3 regarding the toxicologic properties of thei .r 2 4 p r o d vi c t s ? KRAI.1SS, KATZ & ACKERMAN, INC. WATER PCB-00048244 Ka 1ey 35 1 A. I don't think so. I don't know 2 specifically what collection you are ta 1 k 1 n g a b o u t, 3 if any. 4 Q . We .11 , .is t h e r e s u c h a c o .11 e c t i o n ? 5 A. Not to my knowledge. I mean we have an 6 MSDS onPCBs . I'm f a m i 1 i a r w .i t. h t h a t , whic h 7 summarizes; b u t o t her t h a n that, I don't, know, 8 Q, Well, xn fact, you actually helped w rit e 9 p a r t of your MSDS on PCBs; didn't y o u ? 1 0 A . A previous incarnat, i on of i t, yes, Th e 1 1 present one, no, 1 2 Q . Areyou f a m .i 1 ,i a :r w 11, h any r e s e a r c h t it a t 13 was don eb a c k ,i. n the '60s r e g a r d .i. n g t h e t. o x 1 c ]. 4 properties of epoxide 201 or EDDC or a ny of the 1 5 other compounds I h a v e mentioned so far today other 1 6 than PCBs? 1 7 A. I am not, 1 8 Q. Wh o in Monsanto Company would know about 19 t. h e toxic properti.es of t h e products t h a t you were 2 0 mariu f ac turirig back in the '60 s and '70s pr ior t o 2 1 your employment? 2 2 A . I don't have:* as p e c i f i c a n s w e r to t h a t , 2.3 There's nobody i. n the toxicology depart men t a. t tha t 2 4 t ,ime that's s t ill employed, I b e .1 ieve. F r e d K R A H S S , KATZ R ACKERMAN, INC, WATER_PCB-00048245 Ka 1 ey 36 1 JohansoTi is director of toxicology. I don't k n o w 2 when he joined Monsanto. 3 Q. How about Mr. P a p a g e o r g e ? Is he the 4 expert on that a.ga i. n ? 5 A . On toxicology? 6 Q, Yes. 7 A, He would have knowledge. He is 8 certainly not an expert on toxicology, I don' t 9 b e1ieve. 1 0 Q - Where were you on November 15, 1991? 1 1 A , November 15, 1991? .1 2 Q . Yes , ]. 3 A , I was in Washington, DC, 1 4 Q - What were you doing there? 1 5 A , I was attending an EPA hearing on the 1. 6 r e e v a luation of the toxicity of diox .i n 1. 7 Q Where d i. d i. t t a k e .1. 8 A . I b e 1 .i eve i t wa s 1 9 Q . Hater s i de Mai 1 ? 2 0 A . I believe that's correct. Yes, 2 .1 Q < 401 M Street? 2 2 A , Yes. 2 3 Q < How d .i. d y o xi get to go there? 2 4 A . How did 1 get: to go there? It w a s a n KRAUSS, KATZ & ACKERMAN, INC, WATER PCB-00048246 Ka 1 ey 37 1 open meeting, 2 Q. Here you invited, were y o u advised of 3 the m eeting, we r e you to1d it w a s going to ha ppen? 4 A, I knew it was going to happen, yes, 5 Q . Had Monsanto Company bee n a. n a c. t i v e 6 pa rt .i c i pant in t h e ef for t to review t h e toxic o logic 7 p r o p e r tie s of dioxins? 8 MR. MALIN: Object t o t he form 9 of the question. If you think you can .1 0 answer- t li a t q u e s t ion c h a r a cte r .ized a s i t 1 1 i s , please try to do s o . 1 2 THE WITNESS: I don't have any 1 3 knowledge that we were, no, 1 4 BY MR, COHEN: 1 8 Q . You are aware t h a t the paper .i n d u s t r y is 1 6 t r y i n g to get t h e toxicologic properties o diox 1 n s 1 7 rev.i e w e d ? 1 8 A, I'm certainly a w a i" e t h e y h a v e a n 1 9 nterest i n it, yes. 2 0 Q . How about the chlorine .i n d u s t r y ? 2 1 A , Yes, They have an i. uteres t i. n .1. t also 2 2 Q. Is Monsanto a member of t he c h .1 o r .i n e 2 3 Indus t ,ry ? 24 A . If you are ta Iking about the Ch.lor.i ne KRAIJSS, KATZ & ACKERMAN, INC, WATER PCB-00048247 Ka 1ey 38 1 Institute specifically, no, 2 Q . Are. you generally a manufacturer of 3 products containing chlorine ? 4 A . I believe we still do m a n u a c t ur e some 5 products containing chlorine, yes, 6 Q . But you a r e u ri a w a re of: a ny e f f o r t a t 7 this time i n w h i. c h Hons a n t o Com p a. n y i s p a. r t i. c i p a t i n g 8 to have the toxicologic properties of dioxin 9 revie wed? 1 0 A . I'm un a w a re of such a c t ,i v i t y , 1 1 Q Y o \i said u n aware? 1 2 A , I'm unaware of such a c t .i v i t y by M o n s a n t o .1.3 Company, yes .1. 4 Q . Do you know of a Dr, H o uk, H-0-U - K? 1 5 A . 11 i s pronounced Houle, but, yes. I know 1 6 who you a re speaking-of. 1 7 Q . Do you know who employs Dr. Houk? 1 8 A , Yes, I do. 1 9 Q . Who? 2 0 A . He is employed by the Centers fox- 2 1 Disease Control. 22 Q W h a t , i f any, e f o r t i s D :r , H o u k m a k i n g 2 3 with res pec t to the attempt to reevai u a t, e t h e 2 4 toxicologic properties of dioxins? K R A H 3 S . KATZ & ACKERMAN, INC, WATER PCB-00048248 Ka 1 ey 39 1 A . I don't know that he .is making a n y 2 particular effort. He i. s voicing his opin i o n s o n 3 certain subjects, 4 Q . Do you know what his op .i n .i oris a r e ? 5 A > I believe his b a s;i. c, op i. n i. on i. s t h a t. 6 d .i ox i n m a y n o t b e a s toxic as orig i. n a 1.1 y t hough t 5, 7 6 , 1 0 y e a r s ago. 8 Q W h at doe s he base 1h a t on, do you k n o w ? 9 A He bases it, as I u n d e r s t a n d i. t, 1 0 p r i rn a r i 1 y o n 11) e e p .i d e rn i o .1 ogi c a 1 .1 .i t e r a t ure , 1 1 Q, Are you aware of any new stud i es that .1 2 D.r . Houk relies upon ? 1 3 A . I'm not -- I can't speak to w h a t D r , [louk 1 4 is or i s n o t r e 1 y i. n g upon, 1 5 Q. Well, have you had an opportunity to 1. 6 read his papers, h i. s present a t i. o n s , hear any of h i. s 1 7 speeches on the sub j e c t ? 18 A , I have seen reference to it i. n v a r .i. o u. s 1 9 journal -- not jo u r n a Is, b u t t rade in agaz i n e s , new s 2 0 report magazines , 2 .1. Q , I n f a c. t, Dr-, H o u k b a s ic a 1.1 y i s look i n g 2 2 at da t a that ' s r a t her o 1 d.; isn ' t he? 2 3 A . I can't speak to w h a t h e i s or i sri ' t 2 4 looking at. KRA1.1SS , KATZ & ACKERMAN, INC WATER PCB-00048249 Kaley 40 1 Q In o t h er 2 A . I don't 3 relying on. no , 4 Q W h y did 5 1. 5 , 1 9 9 1 ? 6 A . I went a 7 present comments to 8 Q CMA i s 9 A . Chemi ca. 1 1 0 Q - That's n 1 1 A . No, it i 1 2 Q Moris a n t o 13 A , Yes, it .1. 4 Q Does Mon 1 f> the CMA? 1 6 A , I'm sure 1 7 Q . Do you in .1. 8 contri b u t e on an arm u a .1 b a s .1 s to the C M A ? 19 A , I d o n o t . 2 0 Q. Do you have any idea ot the order of 2 1 magnitude of their contrib u tio n a to the C M A ? 22 A . I do not . 2 3 Q. They give of your time? 24 A . Some, yes. KRAUSS, KATZ & ACKERMAN, INC. WATER PCB-00048250 Ka 1 ey 41 1 Q, Other people's time? 2 A . Yes. 3 Q Who else can you id e n tif y for me who 4 Mons art to would be willing to con t r i bate t. i m e to t h e 5 Chemic a 1 Manufacturers Association ? 6 MR. MALIN s Objection to the 7 form of the question 8 BY MR, COHEN: 9 Q. Do you understand what I me a n , Doc t o r ? 1 0 Employees of Monsanto? 1 1 A. I understand w h a t you me a n . 1 2. Q. Who? 1 3 A. Heavens, I mean everyone. 1 4 Q, Everyone? 1 5 A . Not everyone, but certainly there are 1 6 probably tens , i. f not hundred s of people, I don't 1 7 know t he e xact number. 1 8 Q Who are Monsanto Company employees? 1 9 A . Yes . That's what the organization is. 20 It is groups of employees of t. he chem i c a 1 i n d u stry 2 1 w h o m e e t to d e a .1 w 1.1 h t opic s o f intersst to the 2 2 industry, 2 3 Q . So, when you went, to Washirigton on 2 4 November 15, you did not go as a represen t a five of KRAITSS, KATZ R ACKERMAN, INC. WATER PCB-00048251 Ka 1ey 42 1 Monsanto Company? 2 A . That's correct. 3 Q You went as a. representative o C M A ? 4 A That's correct. 5 Q Did you have any presentation t o make? 6 A Yes, I did. 7 Q Do you have a copy of it ? 8 A Not with me. 9 Q W h e re i s 1. t ? 1. 0 A . In my office i n S t. Louis , .1 1 Q < You could ea s i ly get aho 1 d of i. t ? .1. 2 A . Ce rta inly. 13 MR. COHEN: I 'm going to ask 1 4 counsel a t t hi i s t. i m e t o provide me with 1 5 copy of Dr. Kaley's presentation prep ared 1 6 for' the November 15, 199.1 meeting. 1 7 BY MR, COHEN; 1 8 Q . D r . Kaley, can you tell m e has i c a .11 y 19 what was the thrust of your presentation? 2 0 A. Thrust of my presentation was t h a t t h e 2 1 CMA group was concerned a. bout the EPA's expressed 22 .interest in the use of T E F s , Toxicity E q u i v a lency 2 3 Factors for PCBs, and that we felt that th eir use 2 4 was premature and inappropriate at t h .i s t i m e , KRAUS S , KATZ & ACKERMAN, T.NC, WATER PCB-00048252 Ka 1ey 43 1 MR. COHEN; I want you to not e 2 the reques t. on a separate sc h e d u 1 e i n case 3 we have more s uch requests. A .1 s o , y o u 4 will note the page so I can r eadily f i. n d 5 it since I have h ad no response from 6 counsel regarding my request ind i c a tir g 7 that he would produce it . 8 BY MR, COHEN: 9 Q T EFs, Doctor? 1 0 A , Yes, 1 .1 Q - Toxi c .i t y Equi va .1 e ncy Fa c t or s ? .1 2 A . T hat' s correct. 1 3 Q What do they me a n ? 1 4 A , What do they mean? 1 5 Q What ' s that m e a n, t h a t phrase ? 1 6 A . B a s i c ally, i t i. s a. s h o r t h a n d. procedure 1 7 of trying t o -- depending on the chemic a .1 s .i nvolved , 18 trying to r e 1 a t e the toxicity of a mixture t o a 1 9 p a r a d i g rn comp o u n d , a surrogate compound s o t h a t r .i s k 20 assesso r s m i g h t be a b 1 e to make judgments o n 2 1 m .i x t u res . 2 2 Q . Bo, you are opposed to t hat pra c tice? 2 3 A . I wouldn't say I'm opposed to it, no. 2 4 Certainly n o t. KRAUSS, KATZ & ACKERMAN, INC. WATER PCB-00048253 Ka 1ey 44 ]. Q. Tell me wh a t 1 a your position with 2 respect to the usia of T E F s , 3 A . My -- with respect to the u s e of TEFir in 4 general, I thin k :i. t i. s recognized to b e a n inter! m 5 procedure a rid n e e d s t o b e u t .i 1 1 z e d i D t. h a t case. I 6 think it needs to be used c a r e f u11 y, but I t hin k 7 un d e r proper controlled conditions f o r risk 8 assessment, it may have a p p ropriate usage, 9 Q . Now, has E P A suggested that they .inter)d 1 0 t o u s e a TEF for P C B s ? If a nybody c. a n u n dersta n d ,.1 1 t his transcript, it will be wonder f u .1 1 2 Do you understand my question, 1 3 MR, MALIN: I'll object to the 1 4 form of the question, I don't know how he 1 5 is going to know w h a t E P A is suggesting 1. 6 unless they h a v e said something or h a. v e 3. 7 p u t .i. t out. B u t go a head and answer .i t . 1 8 MR, COHEN: We can probably find .1. 9 that o ut if he wi11 t ell us. 2 0 THE WITNESS; I'm sorry. Would 2 1. we r epea t the qu e s tion? 2 2 B3T MR, COHEN; 2 3 Q. Has he E P A, sir, to your knowledge, 2 4 indicated that they intend to use a TEF for P C B s ? KRAUSS, KATZ & ACKERMAN, INC. WATER PCB-00048254 Ka 1 ey 45 1 A. T h e y h a v e indicated t h a t they a r e 2 investigating whether that use of it mig h t b e 3 appropriate under certain conditions. 4 Q , Now, w h a t. would be their p a r a d. i g m 5 comp o u nd ? 6 A , A t t h i s timethey are 1o oking at 2, 3, 7, 8 7 tetr a. c h 1 o r: o d i benzodioxin , 8 Q. So, they want to prepare for PCBs a TEF 9 t. h a t w o u Id c o in p a r e the toxicity of P C B s to 2 , 3 , 7 , 8 1 0 T CCD; is that correct? 1 1 A . I don't know if I would use the term .1. 2 " w a ri t to," but they areinv e s t .i g a t .ing that, yes, 1 3 Q . They are investigating t h e p o s s i. b 1. .1. i. t y 1 4 of developing a TEF to c o rn p a :r; e the toxicity of: P C B s 1 5 to 2,3,7,8 TCCD? .1. 6 A. In genera 1 term s, that's correct, 1 7 Q . Have they suggested what the TEF would 1 8 be f or PCBs ? 1 9 MR. MALIN; Objection to the 2 0 f o r m of that question. Again, answer if 2 1 you can, Doctor. 2 2 T HE WITNESS: I don't know t h a t 2 3 E P A has, 2 4 BY MR, COHEN: KRAtlSS, KATZ & ACKERMAN, INC, WATER PCB-00048255 Ka 1ey 46 1 Q. Has anyone? 2 A , T h e i' e are certain researchers who h a v e , 3 yes. 4 Q . F .i r s t o a .11 , let's s t a r t with who is i t 5 at E P A that you know to be responsible for this T E F 6 exercise? 7 A. Well, I would say Dr . Linda Birnba um, 8 B-I-R-N-E-A-U-M. 9 Q . Have you had occasion to speak to D:r , 1 0 B i r n b a. u m ? 1 .1. A. Not personally. Sh e was on the panel 1 2 listening to the comments I made a t t he E P A 1. 3 me e ting. ]. 4 Q . Is she an M.D. or a Ph . D . ? 1 5 A . She must be a Ph.D. I don't know 1 6 s p e c if.ical.ly, I w o u .1 d certainly make a n educ a t e d 1 7 guess that she is a P h,D. 1. 8 Q. Do you know where she has been educated? 1 9 A , I do not , 2 0 Q . Do you know her employment experience? 2 1 A . In the vaguest of terms, 2 2 Q . Tell me, 2 3 A. She was -- when I first became aware of 2 4 her, she was employed by the National Insti t ut.es - - KRAITSS, KATZ & ACKERMAN, INC, WATER PCB-00048256 Ka 1 ey ]. I'm sorry. The Nation a 1 I nsti t ute for E n viro n m e n t a .1 2 Health Research. I'm sorry. Sera tc h t hat. 3 National I n s t i t u t e f o r E n viro n m e n t a .1 Heal t h Sci e rices 4 at Resear c h T r 1 a n g .1. e P a r k , And she h as r e c e n t. 1 y 5 within t h e 1 a s t yea or two m o v e d , I believe it i s 6 t o the H e a 11 h Effects Res e a. r c h L abor a tory o f the E P A 7 also at Researc h T riangle Park. 8 Q , Where i. s Research T r .1 angle Park? 9 A . 11 i s arnong Chapel Hill, Raleigh, Dur ha m 1 0 a n d some o t h e r c i. t. y i n North Caro 1 i. n a . 1 1. Q . Was herfirst e m p .1 o y ru e n t the I n s t i t u t e. 1 2 for Environme n t a 1 H e a 1 t. h S c iences at Research 1 3 T riarigl e P a r k , an agency of. t h e E P A ? 1 4 A. No. NIHS i. s -- it is eventually under .1 5 Health a n d Hu rn a n Services. It i s par t o f NIH , 1 6 N a t. i o n a 1 Inst i t u t e s of H e a 11 h , w h i c h I believe i s 1 7 u n d e r H e a .11 h and Human Services. 1 8 Q N o w , has Dr. B i. X' n b a u m , to y o u r 1 9 understanding, t a k e n a positio n regarding the 2 0 development o f a TEF for P C B s ? 2 1 A . My unde rs tanding is she is doing 2 2 r e s e a r c, h on that question curren 11 y . 2 3 Q . Did she m a k e a presen t a t ion o n N o v e rn b e r 2 4 15? K R A H S S , KATZ & ACKERMAN, INC, WATER PCB-00048257 KK aa1leeyy 48 1 A , Yes, she d i. d , 2 Q . D o y o u r e c a 11 the t hrust. of the 3 presentation? 4 A . Basics .1 .1. y 11 was a n o u t .1 ,i r> e o f the 5 research p r o g r a m t h a t E P A .i. s under t a k i. n g to addres s 6 th e q u e s tion of dioxin toxicity , 7 Q D i. d it h a v e any t h ing to do w i. t h PCBs? 8 A . I believe s h e m e n 1: i o n e d t h e o u t .1 .i n e -- 9 yes, i. t d i. d , S h e m e n t i. o n e d the o u 11 ine of her .1 0 specific r e s e a r c h to add r e s s t h a t q ues t .i o n , .1 .1 Q - What d i. d s h e say ? .1 2 A . S h e ba s i c a .1.1 y s a i d t ha t b er 1 a b ora t ory 1 3 was d o ing res e a r c h to invest i. g a te the 1 4 a p p r o p r i a 1; e n e s s and the possible m a g ft .i t u d e of T E F s 1 5 for PCBs. 16 Q 17 A. 1 8 yes. I s tha t t h e exten t of h e r commen t s ? W i t regard to PCBs, I be 1 ieve i t is. 1 9 Q . Anyone else that was there t ha t day t ha t 2 0 you w o u .1 d i. ndicate as b e 1 n g o n t h e p a. n e 1 from E P A ? 2 1 A , You asked me who else was on the p a n e1? 2 2. Q . Yes, 23 A . I believe Eric B r e 11 hi a uer, 2 4 B-R-E-T-T-H-A-U-E-R, I believe, I think Peter KRAIJSS, KATZ & ACKERMAN, INC WATER PCB-00048258 Ka1ey 49 ]. Preuss was on t Pi e panel , P - R - E - U - S - S . And I be .1 i e v e 2 William Fa.rl.and, F-A-R-L-A-N-D, was on the panel. 3 There may ha ve been others. And I think Preuss may 4 or may not have been on the panel. He was cer tain1y 5 t h ere. 6 Q - P r e u s s , P e t e r P r e u s s you said? 7 A . Yes . He may have been t he modera tor. I. 8 don't know if he a c t u ally s a t on t h e pan e .1 o:r n o t , 9 Q T h e s e were all E P A people? 1 0 A . Yes. .1 1. Q Now, you said, to your- u n d e r s 1; a n d i n g , 1 2 c. ertain people have suggested t h at T E F s for P C B s 1 3 should be developed? 1 4 A, I don't know if I would use t h e ter m 1 5 "should." I think it is a q u e stion w hic h p e o p1e a r e 1 6 1 o o k. i n g at. 1 7 Q. Who ar e the people who are looking a t 18 it? 1 9 A . The nost notable, a n d t he one t h a t ' s 2 0 done the most on it is a Dr, Steven Safe, S-A-F-E, 2 .1. Q Where is D :r. Safe? 2 2 A , I believe he is at T e x as A &M, 23 Q W h o e 1 s e ? 2 4 A , Aside from Dr. Birnbau m , I t h .i. n k he i s KRAI.JSS, KATZ & ACKERMAN, INC, WATER PCB-00048259 Ka 1ey 50 ]. probably the nost -- the only one I c a ri r e a .1 .1 y s p e a k 2 of , 3 Q You s a .i d e arlier s o me people had 4 suggested a T E F for PCBs ? 5 A . Yes . 6 Q What TEF had they suggest e d f or PC Bs? 7 A , Wei .1 , o b v i o u s .1 y it de p e n d s o n t h e 8 congener. It is one of the 209 possible PCBs, The 9 p a r tic i.i 1 a r T E F is based on a congener-by-co n g e n e r 1 0 e s t. i m a t e . So t h a t the number v a r .ies dep e n <3 .i n g o n 1 1 w h i. eh P C B s a p e r s on is 4: a .1 k i. n g a. b out , ] 2 MR. COHEN: Let's take a .13 t w o -- m 1 n u. t e break a t t h i. s p o .i. n t . ]. 4 (Whereupon, a short r e c ess was .1 5 t a. ken. ) .1 6 BY MR. COHEN: 1 7 Q . How many congeners are there for PCBs, .1 8 s i r ? .1. 9 A. 209. 2 0 Q. Would all 209 have been in vo1ved in t he 2 1 products t h a. t were used a s d i e 1 e c t r i. e f 1 u i d ? 2 2 A . 11 ,i s u ri .1 .i k e 1 y . 2 3 Q , Is that because some o f t: h e m a. re so 2 4 heavily chlorina t e d t ha t they would unlikely h a v e KR A U S S , KATZ & ACKERMAN, INC, WATER PCB-00048260 Ka ley 81 1 been produced in the process? 2 MR. M A L I N : Objection to the 3 form of the question, If you can 4 understand that., go a h e ai d . 5 THE WITNESS; That's part of: 6 .i t . P a r t o f i t i s t ft e p r e f: err e d 7 subs ti t u t i on p a 11. e .r us for the c h 1 o r i. n a 11 o n 8 of biphenyls. 9 BY MR, COHEN; .1 0 Q . Now, when you say "the preferred 1 1 substi tution p a t terns, " by who m i. s t h e subst i. t u t i. o n 1 2 p a 11: e rns preferred? 1 3 A, By t he god of chemistry, I guess. I 1 4 m e a n i. t 1. s a c h e m i. c a 1 thermodyn a m i c a. n d k 1. neti c .1. 5 determina t i on determined by physic a 1 1 a ws , J. 6 Q, It is something that happens really .1 7 o utside of t h e control of the m anufacturer to soue .1. 8 e x t e n t ? .1 9 A, That's correct. 2 0 Q . So that the congene r s w j. 11 cr ea t e 2 1 themselves in the manufacturing process? 2 2 A. I mean within -- w h at I interpret your 2 3 meaning to be, the answer is y e s , 2 4 Q . And i. n the manufacturing process you. KRAUSS, KATZ & ACKERMAN, INC. WATER PCB-00048261 Ka 1ey 52 1 produce a product to a desired degree of 2 chloririat, i o ri t h a t. con t a ins m a n y congene r s of varying 3 degrees of chlorination and vary i. n g p a tterns of ' 4 s u bs titution? 5 A . Tha t ' s c orre c t . 6 Q , Which congeners would you believe it w a s 7 unlikely w o u 1 d be i. n the manut a cturing of P C B s ? 8 A. I'm not sure I'm prepared to answer t ha t 9 as I s i. t here. I would t h i n k t h a t subst i. t. u 11. o n , 1 0 w ti a t ' s c a 1 1 e d t h e m e t a , M -- E - T -- A , pos .i t. .i o n a r e among 1 1 the less 1 i. k e 1 y t o b e p r oduced, .1 2 Q, What is me t a posItion? 1 3 A, T ha t 's a s y o u go around t he ring, ]. 4 those -- there's four positions t h a t. are not n e x t t o 1 5 the c a rbon carbon bond, but the pos 11 i. o n s adjace n t 1 6 t o t hose 1 7 Q You want to make a drawing for me and 1 8 show 1t t o m e ? 1 9 A , I can do th at, 20 Q . Here's a piece of paper. 2 1 A . (Witness complies. ) 2 2 Biphenyl is 2 6 -m e m b ered r 1 r g s wit. h 2 3 chlorine a t the c or n er s of the h e x a g o n s , The 2 2 4 pos itions c. .1 o s e s t to t h e c. arbor c a r b o n 1) ond are KRAIlEiS , KATZ & ACKERMAN, INC, WATER_PCB-00048262 K a Ley 53 1 c a .1 1 e d t hi e ortho posi tio n s . The p o s i t A o n s o n e 2 position away from those, the f: o ur p o s A. t i ons a. r e the 3 meta positions. A n d the positio n s at the oppos Ate 4 ends from the bond are the para posi.ti.ons. 5 Q Now, you s a i <5 the meta p o s i t i o n s are 6 . 1 i k. e .1. y t o b e p r o d u c e d ? 7 A . T hi a t ' s correct. 8 Q - W h a. t wou id they be known as? 9 A . I ' m sorry, 1 0 Q What i. s t h e congenei: known as ? 1 1 A . Well , those positions a r e -- if y o u a :r e L 2 ring, those posi. t. i o n s a r e t h e numb e :r s 3 5 3 ' 1 3 5', So that any congener with those numerical 1 4 notations w o u 1 d , in gene r a 1 , a n d I'm t a .1. king A. n 1. 5 gene x a 1 A t A e. s hi e re, not s p e c A f A. c ally, b u t t h o s e a r e 1 6 less likely to be produced than materials with .1. 7 chlorines a t, t h e o r t hi o and p a ra positions , 1 8 Q Now, to be at t h e m e t a p ositio n, woul d .1. 9 t h a t m e a ti it wo u1d h a v e to b e a t a .1.1 4 , t h a t .i s , 3 2 0 5 and 3 ' , 5 ' ? 2 1 A . No . 2 2 Q - So, any attachment at 3 or 5 o r 3 ' o r 2 3 would be less likely to be produced? 2 4 A . Relatively s pe a k .i ng , yes. KRAUSS, KATZ R ACKERMAN, INC. WATER PCB-00048263 Ka 1 ey 54 1 Q, How about 2 3 7 8 ? 2 A . That's not -- that h a s nothing to do w i t hi 3 biphenyls. 4 Q. Pa rdon? 5 A . T h a t designatio n has nothing t o d o w :i t hi 6 biphenyls . 7 Q . No, i t hi a s to do w i t hit hi e c h .1 o r .i n e 8 attachments ; r .1 g h t ? 9 A. But not t o bipheny1s , 1 0 Q . No t t o bipheny 1 s ? .1. 1 A . That 's correct . 1 2 Q , To wha t ? 1 3 A. Well, to -- mostly It is m o st often use d 1 4 with r e s p e c t t o t. In e chlorinated diox i n s , .1. 5 Q . W hi a t would b e a cop 1 a n a r c. h .1 o r i n a t e d .1 6 biphenyl? 1 7 A , It would be -- as the term is used, it's .1. 8 one w11 h no substitution at any o t t h e ortho 1 9 positions . 2 0 Q That's it? 2 1 A . That's it. 2 2 Q < So, it could be 2378? 2 3 A . No. It could n o t , 2 4 Q . I'm sorry. FCRAUSS, KATZ & ACKERMAN WATER PCB-00048264 Ka 1ey 1 A , T he 23 7 8, t h e PCB designa t. i o n s a r e 2 2 t h rough 5 on one ring. and 2' -- I'm sorry. 2 3 through 6 o n one ring, a ri d 2 ' t h r o u g h 6 ' o n t h e 4 o t h e .r r 1 n g , 5 Q I ' 1 .1 - 6 A . 11 i s a d i ffer e n t n u m b e r i n g s y s t e m t h a t 7 i s u s e d f o r the dioxin 8 Q 9 3'? I under stand. It co u .1 <3 b e 2 , 3 and 2 ' , ]. 0 A , It c e r 1: a inly c o u .1 d b e t h a t , .1. 1 Q T hat would be copla n a r ? 1 2 A , No . It would not. 1 3 Q - It would not be? 1 4 A . No . 1 5 Q Give me examples of cop.1 ana r , then , 1 6 A . W e 1.1 , it cannot have a number i n t h e 1 7 p o s i 1t,i on to be coplan a r. 1 8 Q, It cannot have a number in 2 or 6 ? 1 9 Number t h e m a 1.1. for me, 2 0 A, I'm doing that. For it to be copla n a r, 2 1 it c a n ri o t h a v e chlorine subs t i t u t ion i n a n y o f: t h e 2 2 2 , 2 ' , 6 , or 6 ' positions , 2 3 MR, COHEN: Mark that as P-2 for 2 4 me, p1e a s e, KRAllSS, KATZ & ACKERMAN, INC, WATER PCB-00048265 K a, 1 e y 56 1 (Whereupon, the e x hibit was 2 marked P - 2 for iden t i f i c a tion . ) 3 BY MR. COHEN: 4 Q . Would you agree that your p r o d u c t 1 o n 5 P C B s contained c o planar P C B s ? 6 A . I don't know specif i c a 1 .1 y , T h a v e n ' t 7 .1 ooke d a t t hat specif i c. a 11 y . 8 Q . Was there some o n e there a t t hi e m e e t i n g 9 on November 15, 1991 othe r than yourse 1 f fro ni 1 0 Mon s an t o Compariy ? 1 1 A , No . 1 2 Q. Youwere the only person? 1 3 A. Yes. 14 Q. Were you asked whether your p r o d uc tio n 1 5 P C B s cont a 1 Tied coplanar P C B s ? 1 6 A . No . 1 7 Q. Have you ever been asked whether the 1 8 prod u. ction P C B s cont a i. n e d coplanar PCBs ? 1 9 A . N o t that I c a r> r e c a 1.1 . 2. 0 Q . Are you aware w h e t. h e r you r productio n 2 1 P C B s c. o n t a i ried cop.lan a r PCBs? 2 2 A , I have loo ke d at 1iterat u r e w h 1. c h\ 2 3 a ddresses t hi a t . 2 4 Q . Where does that .literal: u re ex .i s t ? KRAUSS, KATZ & ACKERMAN, INC, WATER PCB-00048266 Kaley 57 ]. A . I don ' t understand your q u e stion, I 2 guess , 3 Q Well, you said y ou have looked a t i t , 4 Where i. s it.? 5 A . It is in journals, s c. i e n t i f i c jo urn a 1 s 6 Q Where have you seen those j o u r n a. Is? 7 A . I don 't even know. I in e a n I a s s u in e a t 8 Monsanto. 9 Q Well , is that w h e r e y o u s a w s o in e o f 1 0 t h e m , i f not a 11 of them ? 1 .1 A . C erta inly. J. 2 Q Can you today give me a r eference i n a 1 3 journa .1 d e a 1 i n g with the pres ence of c o p .1 an a r P C B s .1 4 in p r o d uction P C B s ? .1. 5 A . Not specifically, no. 1 6 Q Y o u h a v e s u c h i. n f o r m a tion a v a 1. 1 a b .1. e t o 1 7 you back in your office? 1. 8 A . Wel.1, I have p r obab .1. y a. t 1 e a st o n e p a. p e r 1 9 which purports to have done a congener-by-congener 2 0 analysis of certain P C B products, and if the 2 1 coplanars were t h e r e , i t w o u .1 d have repor t e d t h a t . 2 2 Q , W h o wr ote that? 2 3 A. I don't know. 2 4 MR. COHEN: I'm going to ask KRAUSS, KATZ & ACKERMAN, INC. WATER PCB-00048267 K a ley 58 1 you. Doctor, to get toge t. h e r t o t h e best 2 o f your ability all of the journals a nd 3 articles and other publications you are 4 a ware of that discuss the presence of 5 coplanar PCBs in commercial PCB 6 p r e p ar a tions and advise your counsel w h e n 7 you have done so, 8 MR. MALIN : Doctor, are all of 9 t h e s e j ournals pub 1 ,i c 1 y a v a .i .1 able, the 1 0 j o u r n a Is t h at dis cuss -- .1. 1 THE WITNESS: Yes, they are. 1 2 MR. M A LIN: A v ai1 ab1e to t h e .1. 3 s c .i e n t i f i c c o rn m u n .i t y ? 1 4 MR. COHEN: Are you g o1n g to .1. 5 conduc t this d epo s .i t i on or -- 1 6 MR. M A I, IN ; Answer the question, 1 7 Doctor. Are they a v a i .1 a b 1 e t o t h e 18 sclent i. f i c com in u n i t y ? 1 9 THE WITNESS: Yes, they are, 20 BY MR. COHEN: 2 1 Q . How would one go abou t .1 o oking for them , 2 2. D o c t or? 23 A . If I were -- presumably one wouId do a 2 4 1 i. tei'atvire search , KRAUSS, KATZ & ACKERMAN, INC, WATER PCB-00048268 Ka 1 ey 59 1 Q What would one look under? 2 A . I f I were to do .it, I guess I would .look 3 u. nder c o m p o s .i. t i. o n or I g u ess I wo u 1 d .look under 4 composition and P C B s . 5 Q, Composition and PCBs ? 6 A, Yes. 7 Q. Anything more specific t h an th a t, 8 Doctor? I m i. g h t get thousands of a rt i. c .1. e s . 9 A ,, I g u e s s you could throw in th e word 1 0 c o n g e n e r and see if that 1.1 m i ted 1.1 . 1 .1 Q . How about; c o p .1 a nar? Wo u .1 d t h at h e 1 p ? 1 2 A , That might help, But the one s t h a t 1 3 r e p or t a 1 .1 the congeners probably are n o t 1 4 n e c e s s a r 1 1 y spec 1. f i c a 1. 1 y targeted for cop .1 a n a. r s , 1 5 Q . What is ste.reochem.ica.ls? 1 6 A , Well, stere o chemical has i. c a. 11 y i. s a 1 7 t errs , a general term which re .1 a t e s to t h e way 1 8 molecules arrange themselves three-dimension a 1 .1. y , 1 9 Q- Are dioxins and polychlorinated dibenxo 2 0 furans stereochemicals? 2 1. A. Under certain definitions the y are, 2 2 yes, 2 3 Q. How about PCBs? 2 4 A . I'm sorry, I thought t; h a. t was your KRAUSS, KATZ & ACKERMAN, INC. WATER PCB-00048269 K a. 1 e y 60 1 first question . I'm sorry, I may h ai. v e 2 misunderstood the first question, 3 Q. I asked you about dioxins and turans, 4 A . Dioxins and furaris are pretty muc.h 5 ste r eochemicals . They a r e s t e r e o c h e m .i. e a 1 i. s o m e r s o r 6 st e reoisome r s , yes. 1 Q. How about PCEs ? Is your answer in 8 certain c i r c u ni stances t h e y a. r e ? 9 A . Yes. 1 0 Q . What circumstances? 1 1. A . Well, it ;j u s t depends on h o w f r e e 1 y o n e 1 2 wants to interpret t he term ste r eoisomer and how 1 3 freely one w a nts to s a y t h e y t e n d to .look a like in .1 4 t hree d i. mensio n s . 1 5 Q Well, who do you know who contends t h at 1 6 PCBs are i.n c er ta i n circumstances s t. ereochemi ca 1 s ? 1 1 A . Well, certainly Steve Safe does for o ne , 1 8 Q. Does Mens ant o? 1 9 A. It Is a degree -- it is a matter of 2 0 d.egree . I. mean the argument could be there. 11, i.s 2 1. not a yes or no question. There are a :r g u rn e n t, s which 2 2 say t h a t PCBs can b e s t ereo .i. some r s o t h e d. i o xins 2 3 and furans, b u t the degree of stereoisomerity is 2 4 much less for PCBs than it is for those other KRAUSS, KATZ & ACKERMAN, INC, WATER_PCB-00048270 Ka 1ey 6 ]. 1 m a t e r 1 a. 1 s . 2 Q But you do a g re e that to some ex t e n t 3 Monsanto w o u 1 d contend that P C B s are s tereoisomers? 4 A . I can't speak for Monsanto. I'm 5 speaking f o r inyse 1 f and my under s t a nding of the 6 1 i t e r a t ure in that p os i t i o n . Y e s , I t h i r> k t here a r 7 cert a in circ u instances w h e re t h a t a r g u m e n t c o u Id b e 8 made on a t h eo r e t .i c a .1 basis. 9 Q W o u 1 d t h a t b e c e r t a i. n congeners of P C B s ? 1 0 A . Yes, it: would. 1 1 Q W hic h ones? 1 2 A , T h e coplanar congeners. 13 Q - Can you g i. v e me some exam p les , if no t 1 4 all the examples, of coplanar .isomers ? 1 5 A . Well, there are 4 that are general .1 y 1 6 considered cop 1 a ri a r , 1 7 Q What are they? 1 8 A . The 3, 4 , 3 ' , 4 ' . 19 Q- 3, 4, 3 ' , 4 ' ? 2 0 A . 3, 4, 5. 2 1 Q 3, 4, 5? 22 A . 3 ' , 4 ' . 2 3 Q . No 5 ' ? 2 4 A . Not yet. KRAUSS, KATZ & ACKERMAN, INC. WATER_PCB-00048271 Kaley 62 1 Q Okay 2 A . 3 , 4 5 3 ' 4 ' , 5 '' 3 Q S o , y ou have 3, 4, 5 , 3 , 4 and 3 / ^4 r 5 / 4 3 ' , 4 ' , 5'? 5 A . Now, I think t, h e r e ' s an o ther one t h a t 6 some people use. a n d I t h ink that's -- i t i. s one of 7 th e trichloros , I couldn't be specific about t h e 8 last one. I t h i n k i. t is one of the t r 1 c hlor o s , a n d 9 t h a t 's generally i n these discuss :i o n s i g n o red 1 0 anyway. The three I have listed are the ones that: .1. .1 a r e m o s tg e n e r a .11 y s p o k e n a h o u t .i ri t h e s e 1 2 d i. s c u s s 1 o n s , 1 3 Q. You said it is one of the trichloros, 1 4 the 3 , 4, 5s? Wouldn't they be -- 1 5 A . I think i t is 4 , 3 ' 4 ' -- I'm sorry, 3 , 1 6 4, 4 ' maybe. That may be what it is. It on 1y has 3 1 7 chlorines. All the others have 4 , Actua 11y, it m a y 1 8 be 3, 4, 5, 4 ' , .1. 9 Q, Well, you got me confused, 2 0 A , Good. I'll sorry, I t i s c. o n f using, 2 1 L et's -- t. h e 3 that I have given y o u a re t h e 3 t h a t 2 2 are considered by the p e o p 1. e .1 ooki n g a t: t, h i s 2 3 question the most important. T h e other one is 2 4 t ypically ignored anyway. KRAtlSS, KATZ & ACKERMAN, INC. WATER PCB-00048272 Ka 1ey 63 1 Q - T hat's a 2 A , That's my 3 Q 4 about ? A X' e t hese 5 A . Th ese are 6 chlorinate d biphenyls 7 Q How a ):> o u t 8 A r e they eve r s t e r e o c. 9 A . I'm sure ]. 0 s o m e thing, but n o t 1 .1. Q Not a dioxin or a f ur:a n ? 1 2 A . No, sir. 1 3 Q Some o t hi er compourid ? 1 4 A , If any, yes. 1 5 Q Do you know if a n y of the qu arterphe ny1s 1 6 or any of the ter phenyls have any o f the s o c o p 1 a n a r .1. 7 conf; i g ura t ion? 1 8 A , I mean wit h o u t being r u de , i t i s & .1. 9 m e aningles s question f o r t hi o s e k i. n d. s of c. h e m 1 c a 1 s , 2 0 Q Just c a n't h a ppe.n ? 2 1 A , Not i. n the sense we are t a 1 k i. ng a b o u t 2 2 it, no 23 Q 2 4 why. Becaus e o f the pos .i t ioning -- t, e .1.1 m e KRAUSS, KATZ & ACKERMAN, INC. WATER PCB-00048273 Ka 1 ey 64 ]. A , Becaus e t h e r e ' s more than 2 rings, 2 Q What are t he o t her c h a r a c terist i. cs of a 3 c oplana r: ? 4 A . I d o n ' t unders a rid the qu e s t .i on . 5 Q Well, isn't i. t generally believed that a 6 so coplanar P C B is s o r t o f f .1 a t. .i n i t s 7 configuration? 0 A . By definition, that's w h at c o p1 a n a r 9 means . 1. 0 Q . Iri other- wor d s , t h e 2 pheny .1 s do n o t 1 1. .r o t a t e wit h r espect to e a c h o t h e r ? 1 2 A, That's not true. They do rota te w i t h .1. 3 r espect to each other, b u t, they c a n i. n t h o s e .1. 4 rota t i. ons assume a coplan a r conf ig u x- a t .i o n , 1 5 Q, So, they can be in many different 1 6 p o s i. t i ons , including cop .1 a n a r ? 1 7 A . T h a t ' s e x a c 11 y r i. g h t , .1. 8 Q I f t li e y were not c. h .1 o r i n a t e (3 .i n way 1 9 h a t, they could be coplanar, t hey won 1d have never 2 0 in t h e i r rota t i. ons f o r rn a planar o :r cop 1 a n a r 2 1 configu r at .i. on; is t h a t correct? 2 2 A , That's t he theory. 2 3 Q That's t h e theory? 2 4 A . Never .is a big w o r d . KRATJSS, KATZ & ACKERMAN, INC, WATER PCB-00048274 Kaley 65 ]. Q D o y o u know anybody else who cons 2 PCBs t o be s te reois ome r s o t h e r t h a n Safe? 3 MR . MALIN : Object to t It e form 4 o f the the q ue s 11. o n . Stereoisomers o f 5 what? But you c a ri a n s w e r i t i f you can 6 u n d e r s tand it . 7 BY MR . COHEN: 8 Q Dioxins and f u r a. n s ? 9 A , I'm sure there a re 1o t s o f o t h e r s 1 0 1 1. 1: e r ature. I'm sure I, i n d a B i r n b a u m does 1 1 Q Now, do y o u b e .1 i e v e t h a t y o u r .1 2 o o in m e r c i a 11. y - p r epared PCBs that were used tor 1 3 d i e 1 e c t r i c fluids c o n t a i n e d cop .1 a n a r PCBs ? 1 4 MR. MAT, IN: Objection to the .1 5 form of the question. Answer .i t .if you 1 6 c a n u. n d ers t and i/1. , 1 7 THE WITNESS: I believe that 18 they probably contained some of the m a t; 1 9 e xtreme .1 y .low .1 e v e .1 s . 2.0 BY MR. COHEN: 2 1 Q . What .levels do you believe we are 2.2 s e a k i n g o f ? 23 A, I would h a v e to put o n the r e cord I ' m 2 4 guessing, but I won .1 d g uess it is p r o b a b .1 y i. n t h e .1 KRAUSS, KATZ & ACKERMAN, INC, WATER PCB-00048275 Ka 1 ey 66 1 to 10 pa r t p e r million. But t hat's s t r .i e t .1 y a 2 guess , 3 Q, Did you ever hea r anyone represen t t h a t 4 they c ontained levels as high a s 2 per cent? 5 A . Of the cop 1 an ar? 6 Q 7 A . I hav e not h e ard that, no. 8 Q . How about 1 percent? 9 A . I d o n ' t h a v e a r e c o 1.1 e c. t .i o n of ever 1 0 he a ring that, no. ]. 1 Q Wh ich congeners would i t 1) e t h a t woul d .1 2 be - - is the r e any o t he r n a m e o ,r d. escr i p t i. o n f o r t h e 1 3 cong e ri e r o t h e r t h a n w h a t we h a v e b e e n d i s c u s s i n g ; 1 4 t h a t i. s , 3, 4, 3 ' , 4 ' ; 3 , 4 5 3 < 4 . 3 , 4 , 9 3 ' 1 5 4 ' 5'? Do you have an y o t h er name s ? J. 6 A , The only other name I woul d. t h 1 nk o f .1. 7 w o u .1 d b e 11) e non ortho - s u b s t i t u t e d , which is kind of 1 8 j u s t. ano t h e r w a y of saying what we have a 1 r e a d. y been .1. 9 saying, A s i d e f r o rn that, I can' t t h i n k o f a n y 2 0 other, 2 1 Q. Nonort h o-subs tituted what, PCBs ? 2 2 A, Yes, 2 3 Q. Do you know of anyone who has done a ny 2 4 a n a 1 y s j. s of your d i. electr i c flu 1 d to d e t e r in i n e the KRAUSE, KATZ fi ACKERMAN, INC, WATER PCB-00048276 K a .1. e y 1. level of s o - c a .1 1 ed nonortho-subs t i tuted P C B s ? 2 A , I don't know anyone that specif i c. a. J. 1 y 3 1 ooked a1 t h os e . 4 Q H a s Mods a n to? 5 A . Not t o m y know!edge. 6 Q What make s you thin k 7 w h a t ever you said, 5 p a rts per in .i .1 .1 i o n r a n g e ? 8 A. I'm just guessing. I told you t h a t ' s 9 just a very -- the vague s t of guesses ba s ed o n s orne 1 0 o t: t h a t 1 i. t e r a t u re we t a 1 k. e d a b o u t e a r 1 i. e r . I don' t. 1 1 r e m e in b e r any number specific a 1.1 y , b u t I w o u .Id - - my 1 2 r e c o 11 e c t ion, a. s w e a. k a s it i. s , i. t i s very 1 o w 1 3 .1. e v e 1 s . 14 Q. Well., a i' e you jus tg u e ssing o r i s t li a t 15 a -- 1 6 A . I r e a .1 1 y a rn b a sic a .1.1 y j u s t guessing . I 1 7 t. old y o u t hat. 1 8 Q . Do you know anybody who h a s a c t u a 1.1 y 1 9 done tests and published da t a. ? 2 0 A . lean n o t - - it has b e e n done. A s I s i t. 2 1 here today, I can't give you a researcher's name, 22 no , 2 3 Q , Do you know anybody who has inf o r m a t .i o n 2 4 o n t h e t. o x i. c prope r ti.es of the so KRAUSS, KATZ & ACKERMAN, INC. WATER PCB-00048277 Ka 1ey 68 1 nonortho-substituted P C B s ? 2 A . 0 1 her t h a n pos s :i b 1 y S t e v e ri S a f e , I m e a n 3 Ik now h e h a s loo k ed at t hat g u e s t i. o n , I a ssum e h e 4 does have some, yes. 5 Q . H a v e y o u h a d a n o p p o r t u n i t y to r e a (3 t h a t 6 s ec t 1 onof t he Federa 1 Register t. ha t wa s appar en t ly 7 incorrectly r e f e. r r e d to e a r 1 i e r i n M :r . I n n e 1 .1 i ' s 0 .1. e 11 e r ? 9 MR. MAUN : Ob jec t t o t he f: o r m 1 0 of the questio n, ]. 1 THE WITNESS: I guess I don't 1 2 k now which r e f erence we a r e t a 1 k i. n g .1. 3 about. So, I don't know the a n swer to 1 4 that . 1 5 BY MR. COHEN: 1 6 Q . Well, have y o u see n V o .1 u me 56, N u m b e r 1 7 19 6 of the Federal Register for Wednesday, 0 c t o be r 1 8 9 , 19 9 1? 1 9 A . Wi thi out s e eing i t and ge 11 .i ng an i (3 ea o f 2 0 what i t says, I c a. n't s p e c ,i. f i c. a 1 1 y answer t la a t 2 1 question. 22 Q. Did you participa te in w h at ha s bee n 2 3 called the Banbury Conference? 24 A . I d i d n o t , KRAIJSS, KATZ & ACKERMAN, INC. WATER PCB-00048278 Ka 1ey 69 ]. Q . Did Monsanto have a representa 15ve in 2 the Banbury Conference? 3 A , No . 4 Q. Did Mon s a nto through the CMA h a v e a 5 r e p r eseetative in the Banbury C o n f e r e n c e ? 6 A . X do not -- 7 MR. M A LIN : Objection to th e 8 form of the q u e s ti on . Answer the ques t .i o n 9 i. f you c a. n . ] 0 THE WITNESS: I don' t b e1ie v e 11 so, 1 2 BY MR. COHEN: .1 3 Q , Have you seen anything p u b .1 .i s h e (3 f r o m 1 4 the B a n bu r y Con f e r e n c e ? 1 5 A . Yes. 1 6 Q . What h av e you seen? 1. 7 A . There's a book of proceedings. 18 Q 1 9 PCBs ? Is there a n y t h i n g i n there re g a r d 1. n g 2 0 A . I don't recall specifically, I wo u1d be 2 1 s u r p r i. s e d if the r e isn't. 22 Q . When was the book published? 2 3 A . Recently, Last - - t h e .1 a s t 3 o r 4 2 4 months. KRAtJSS, KATZ K ACKERMAN , INC. WATER PCB-00048279 K a .1. e y 70 1 Q c >1 0 Q have a copy of i t in your off! c e ? 2 A , Yes, I do , 3 Q What ' s i. t c a .1 1 e d ? 4 A . P a r t of i t i s t h e proceed i n g s o f t he 5 B a ri b u r y Confe re nee on -- it is s o m e t Pi .i n g t o do w .i th 6 m echani s m o f d 1 o x 1. n t o x i c i t y , Those aren't the 7 exact words. a Q . Who is the p u b 1 .i s h e r ? 9 A , Cold S p r i. n g Harbor Press. 1 0 Q . W h e r e a r e t Pi e y .1 o c a t e d ? 1 1 A . C o 1 d Spring Harbor, I. o n g I s 1 a n d , New 1 2 York . 3 3 Q . I s t. h i s p u b 1 i c a t ion available t o any o n e 1 4 who wanted to buy it? 1 5 A. Yes . 1. 6 Q What ' s .1 t cost? .1 7 A . I b e 1 .i e v e i t i s a b out $100. 1 8 Q . How large of a document is i. t ? 1 9 A . II is a book a b o \i t an .inch t h i c k , 2 0 Q I s it bo u n d ? 2 1 A . Yes, it 5s , 2 2 Q Yo xx don't re c a 11 wh e t.h er i. t discusses 2 3 anything regcxrding PCBs? 2 4 A , I don't r e cal 1 s p e c. 1. f i. c a 11 y n o , KRAUSS, KATZ & ACKERMAN, INC. WATER PCB-00048280 Ka 1 ey 71 1 Q . Do you know anyone who was a parti c.i p a n t 2 a t the B a n b u r y Conference? 3 A . Do I know anyone personally? 4 Q . Yes. 5 A . T hat I could walk u p a n d. s a y "Hi, how 6 are you? " 7 Q Yes. 8 A , N o t r e a lly , 9 Q . Do you know anyone by name who wa s a 1 0 p a r t i c I p a n t i n the Banbury Conference? 1. 1 A . I know 1 ots of people by n a me who we r e 1 2 t h e r e, yes. 1 3 Q H a v e y o u r e a d t h e pub 1 .i c a 11 o n ? 1 4 A . I have r e a d p a r t s o f i t . 1. 5 Q . W o u1d you agree t h at t he publicatio n 1 6 supports t.he cone 1. usion that t here was gen era..1. 1 7 agreement a t t.Ite Ba nbury Conference in cer ta in ar ea s 1 8 of dioxin toxicity? For example, h u m a. n a n d 1 9 experi rri e n t a 1 animals r e s p o n d t o d i ox.in 2 0 s i m i 1 a. r 1. y ? 2 .1. MR. MALIN: Objection to the 2 2 f o r m of the t h e q u e s tion . Y o u c an answer 2 3 t ti e question if you unders t a n d it. 2 4 THE WITNESS; I understand that KPAUSS, KATZ & ACKERMAN, INC. WATER PCB-00048281 Kaley 72 1 people h a v e said t he r e was consensus o n 2 those points in general t. e r ms , but there's 3 a Iso a great deal of ongoing c o n trove r s y 4 about whether there was consens u s or no t 5 and about w h a t. the r e in a y or m a y not h a v e 6 been consensus on, 7 BY MR. COHEN: 0 Q . So, you a r e sa yin g t hat you a g r e e th a t 9 t h e r e was consensus on that poi n t ; however, t; here is .1. 0 a dis p u t e as to w he ther there was c o nsensus? 1 1 A , I w o u .1 d. say t h a t t here is consensus on 1. 2 t h a t po in t t o t h e e f f ec t that my und er s t a nd .i ng i s 1 3 t h a t the p e o p1<3 at t h e c o n f e r ence b a s e d more on what 1 4 they h a v e said since, ra ther than o n w h a t t h e book 1 5 says, that people believe that the toxi.ci.ty of 1 6 d i ox i ri i s med ,i a t ed by a r eceptor, a cel .1 u.1 ar 1 7 receptor, and t h a t i n t hat sense the d. i. o x 5. n i. s 1 8 similar for- both -- I'm sorry, the t o x 1 c i t y .i s 1 9 similar f o r h u m a n s and a n .i. m a 1. s , and t h a t the d i o x i. n 2 0 toxicity is mediated through the same mechanism, 2 .1. Q . What do you mean, "the toxic 1.1. y i. s 2 2 media t ed through" -- 2 3 A . Exercised, express ed , 2 4 Q You mean i it occurs in the same w a y ? KRATJSS, KATZ & ACKERMAN, INC. WATER PCB-00048282 Ka 1 ey 73 1 A . Fo r cert a in of the toxicities, if no t 2 a 11, yes. 3 Q . W h i c. h toxic i t .ies in parties .1 a r ? 4 A , I don't, even know which ones t h e y were 5 talking abo u t . I think t h e y we r e t a .1 k i ri g a b o u t -- I 6 guess they were looking at i in m unotoxi c i t y , 7 I-M-M-U-N-O, toxicity. I'm not so sure about 8 carcinogenicity, I be .1 ieve probably neurotox i e 11 y , 9 T h o s e a r e t ti e ones t h a 1; I recall being a d d r e s s e d , 1 0 Q , How about enzyme i. n d u c. t ion? 1 1 A . Yes, I wou1d agree t. h a t t h a t. w a s o n e 1 2 t h i n g s t h ey a. gr ee d on 1 3 Q - Rep r od u c five t o x i c .i t y ? 1 4 A . Maybe, I d o n ' t recall s p e c i. f i. c a 1.1 y . 1. 5 Q - D e v e .1 o p m e n t a .1 toxicity? 1 6 A . Again, in a ybe . I don't reca11 1 7 specific a .1.1 y , 1 8 Q . If the F e d e r a .1 Regis t e. r repor t e d 1 9 c arcinogen i. city as being one i. n w h i c h the e f e c ts of 2 0 humans can be anticipa ted by e f f e c t s o foserve d i n 2 1 experim e n t a. .1. animals, w o u Id you d i. s a g r e e or agree or 2 2 say y ou don't recal .1 ? 2 3 A , If the Federal. -- 24 MR. M A LIN : Object to the form KRAfJSS . KATZ & ACKERMAN, INC, WATER PCB-00048283 Ka 1ey 74 .1 of t h e the question. Answer t h e q u e s t .i o n 2 i f y o u u n d. e rstand i t , 3 THE WITNESS: If the Federal 4 Register said it, the Federal Register 5 said it, I don't know specific a .1 1 y w h a t 6 t hey s a .i. d about carcinogenicity , So, I 7 o a n ' t really agree or dis a gr ee. 8 By MR, COHEN: 9 Q . So, you are saying you don't: reca 1 .1 wha t 1 0 the p u b 1. i. c a t i. o n s t a. t, e s regarding 11: a t form of .1. 1 t o x i c i t y ? 1 2 A . That's correct:. I mentioned earlier' I 1 3 thought it was addressed. I don't re c a 11 1 4 speci f i c a 11 y what it s t a t e s as I s i t: here now, 1 5 Q. Do you recall whether t he public a tio n 1 6 s t: a t. e d that: certain stereochemi cals hav.i n g s i m i 1 a r 1 7 molecu .1. a r s t .r uctu r e to dioxi.ii may b e h a v e the s a me as 1 8 dioxin? For' ex a mple, c e rtai n polychlo r i nated a n d 1 9 poly b r o m i n a t e d dibenzo f u r a n s , p o 1. y c h 1 o r i. n a t e d a n d 2 0 polybrominated dibenzo-p-diox ins, and c o p1 a n a r 2 1 chlo r i. nated biphenyls? 22 A. I don't recall specifically. That 2 3 doesn't s u r p ri.se me t h a t it w o u Id have s a i. d t h a t , 2 4 Q . Do you know if Monsanto C o in pany t. a k e s a KRAIISS, KATZ & ACKERMAN, INC. WATER PCB-00048284 Ka 1 ey 75 1 position with respect to a ri y of the published 2 conclusions of the Banbury Conference? 3 MR. M A1.1 N : O b j e c t t. o t h e f o r rn 4 of the question Answer t h e ques tion if 5 y o u t h ink y o u u n ders t a n (3 i t . 6 THE WITNESS: I do not believe 7 Monsanto ta k e s a p o s i tion o n t. h a t , no. 8 COHEN: 9 Q D o you? 1 0 A , Do I? :r. have my opi n i. on s . 1 1 Q . Tell me t hem. 1 2 A . I believe t h a t there's c e r tainly good .1. 3 evidence that of mu c h of the toxicity of t h e dioxi n s 1 4 and furans pr oba b 1 y i. s med 3. a t. ed through t h e 1 5 r e c e p t or. I also believe t li a t t here are c e r t. a .i n 1 6 toxiciti.es t h a t t he evidence f o r t hat is not so l 7 clear-. I believe that certain of the PCBs , m o s t 18 notably, the c op 1 an ar PCBs,based on the 1 i. t e r a t ur e , 1 9 probablydo bind to that receptor w i t It less a v .i d .i t y 2 0 or less strength than dioxins, and th at people have 2 .1 reported that binding. But I think for the e n d 22 points of interest, there's little, i. f any, evi. dene e 2 3 t ha t PCBs exhibit toxicity t h rough t ha t receptor. 2 4 Q, I'm s o r r y, what was that last p a r t ? KRMISS, KATZ & ACKERMAN, INC, WATER_PCB-00048285 K a ]. e y 76 1 A . I think there's little, if a 7) y , evidence 2 t h a. t PCBs exhibit toxic i. t y t h r o u g h t h e receptor. 3 Q Wh a t evidence or m a t er .i a .1 s would y o u 4 look to to support your 1 ast conc. 1 us i. on '? 5 A . I t hi ink you have to look a t t he w r .i t ing s 6 of people like Steve Safe who have looked at t h e se 7 gues ti ons . 8 Q . Is Dr. Safe, to your knowledge, working 9 o n a r e s e a. r c h grant of any kind? 1 0 A. To my knowledge, no. 1 1 Q . Dr. Safe, I think you ind i c. a. ted, i s 1 2 located at Texas A & M ? 13 A , Yes, sir. .1. 4 Q , Do you know if t hi e CMA con t r i b u t e s t o 1 5 Texas A & M ? 1 6 A, I don't know specifically, no, 1 7 Q , Who would know that inform a t; i o n ? 1. 8 A. Dr. Safe. 19 Q. Anyone else? 2 0 A, Presumably someone at CMA -2 1 MR . M A L IN ; CMA , 2 2 THE WITNE SS : I wouldn't even 2 3 know where to tell you t o start, 2 4 BY MR. COHEN: FCRAIJSS, KATZ & ACKERMAN, INC. WATER PCB-00048286 Kaley 77 1 Q . Does Monsanto directly contribute to a n y 2 r e s e a r c. h work now at any independent ins t i tutions , 3 to your- knowledge? 4 A . At independent 1 nsti. tutions? 5 Q . Yes, Other than :i n t h e :i r o w n 6 1 a. b o r a t ori.es? 7 A. I'm sure they do. 8 Q . Who would know who they are c u r r e n t J. y 9 c. ontrib u ting t o ? .1. 0 A. I don't know. I don't really know, 1 .1 Q. Can you point to any other doc u ment or 1 2 pub 1 .i cation of any ki. nd t h a t suppor t s y our .1 a s t ]. 3 conclus ion r e g a r ding t 3\ e effect of P C B s on t ti a t. c e 3. 3. 1 4 receptor1.h a t you were disc us s j.ng, o t her t ha n Dr . 1 5 Safe? ] 6 MR. MAIjIN : Object, to the form 1 7 of the question, I don't, understand i. t, 1 8 bu t the w 1. tness ma y answer. 1 9 THE WITNESS: Not as I. si t 2 0 here. I mean he is certainly by far the 2 1 most prolif i. c w r iter o n t. h a t q u e s 11. o n . 2 2 BY MR. COHEN: 23 Q . D o y o u k n o w i fD :r . Silvergeld is d o i n g 2 4 any work in that ar ea ? KRAUSS, KATZ & ACKERMAN, INC. WATER PCB-00048287 Ka 1ey 78 ]. A. I believe s h e is not. B u t she certainly 2 might be. I don't know. But I believe she is not 3 a t this time. 4 Q , Elas she in the pas t ? 5 A, Well, I guess now we are getting b a c k to 6 what is it I'm exactly answering the q u e s tio n a b o ut, 7 Q. Well, do you know? 8 A. Well, looking at the receptor-mediated 9 t o x i c .i, t y , I g u e s s . I don' t think she ever has for 1 0 P C B s . I think at some time or another s he may ha v e ]. 1 for dioxin itself. 1 2 Q . Have you seen any .1 i t.ei'a ture t h a t 13 i. n d i c a tes that, the combinat i. on of t h e d 1 oxins w 5. t h 1 4 PCBs in environment may enhance the toxic reaction 1 5 of either of the compounds ? .1 6 A . On t h e contrary. I think Steven S a f e 1 7 h a. s rep o r t e d t h a t c ombi n at ion may, i. n fact, reduce .1. 8 t he toxi c i t y o f dioxin o :r reduce t he resp o n s e 1; o t h e 1 9 dioxin. 20 Q. What publication a re you refer ring to, 2 1 s 1r? 2 2 A . I don ' t know specifi c. a 11 y . 11 i s a morig 2 3 h i, s w .r i tin g s of t h e last sever a 1 yea j: s . 2 4 Q - Are you aware of any d o c u m e n t s t h a t KRATJSS, KATZ & ACKERMAN, INC. WATER PCB-00048288 Ka 1ey 79 1 Mons a n t o h a s r e g a r ding the toxic p r o p e. r 11 e s o f 2 s o-called c o p 1 a. n a. r chlorinated biphenyls? 3 A . Monsanto documents? 4 Q Yes, 5 A , No, sir. 6 Q . Do you know .if Monsan t o hi a s ever done 7 any research! regarding the t. o x i c, i. t y of co p 1 a n a r 8 chlorinated b i p hi e n y 1 s ? 9 A. I doubt itt h at issue has a risen since 1 0 w e g u i t in a n u f a c t u ring t hi e product . 1 1 Q. Do you know when the issue first came 1 2 up? 1 3 A. B arly to mid 1 9 8 0 s , 1 4 Q. Other than Dr, Safe, can you identify 1 5 whi o has done research on the subject? 1 6 A. Well, D r . ' Bir n b a u m is doing research 1 7 r ,i g hi t, now. 1 8 Q. Anyone else? 1 9 A. Not that Ic a n r e c a 11 , 2 0 Q, Do you have copies of any p u b1ic a tion s 2 .1. by Dr. B .i r ri b a urn? 2 2 A, Probably, 2 3 Q . What are t hi e sub jec t m a tters o f t hi e 2 4 publications that you have? KRAUSS, KATZ & ACKERMAN, INC. WATER PCB-00048289 Ka 1 ey 80 1 A . Probably primarily toxicity of dioxins 2 and fur a n s . That's what our r esearchers have been 3 i nvolved i n for t h e last: -- s ince I have known for 4 the last 5 yea r s or so. 5 Q D o y ou know the publications in w h i c It 6 those pub 1 i. cations a p p e a r ? 7 A . Not s p e c i f i c a .1 1 y , n o . 8 Q . Can you read i 1. y a ccess the m and m a k e 9 t hem a v a i 1 a b 1 e to Mr. M a 1 .i n ? 1 0 A , I could find some of them f a i. r 1 y .1. 1 readily, yes. 1 2 MR. M A LIN : Are t h e y available 1 3 f .r o in publ i. c ly-a.vaila.ble databases, 1 4 d o ctor? 1 5 THE WITNESS: Well, they are in 1 6 publ i. c 11. t erature, yes, 1. 7 MR. COHEN: Consis t e ri t w i t h m y 1 8 comments e a r Her, I have nothin g m o re f o r 1 9 the Doctor- today, 2 0 MR. MAL.IN: I have no 2 1 questions. Anyone else have any 2 2 qu.es t. i o n s ? 2 3 MR. BURNS: No. 2 4 MR. MCDONNELL: No. KRAUSS, KATZ & ACKERMAN, INC. WATER PCB-00048290 Ka 1 ey 81 1 MR, POWELL: No, 2 (Whereupon, the deposition 3 concluded at 11:30 a , in . ) 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 KRAUSS, KATZ S, ACKERMAN, INC, WATER PCB-00048291 K a. 1 e y 82 1 CERTIFICATE 2 I hereby certify that t h e proceedings and 3 e v i d e n c e noted a r e contained fully a n d. a. c e u. rate .1 y i n 4 the not e s taken by me on the deposition of the above 5 m a 1.1 e r , and that t h i s 1 s a c o r r e c t t r a n s c r i pt of t h e 6 sa me . 7 8 9 10 11 .1. 2 13 14 15 1 6 (The f oreg o i n g c e rtific a t i o n o f t h i s 1 7 t r a n s c rip t doe s not app 1 y to any reproduc t. i on of t h e 1 8 s a m e b y any in e a n s , unless under the dir e ct c o n t r o .1 1 9 and/or superv1 sion of the cer tif yin g r eport er, ) 20 21 22 23 24 KRAUSS, KATZ & ACKERMAN, INC. WATER PCB-00048292 1 2 3 4 5 6 PAGE 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 .1 6 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 LIN E Ka 1 ey ERRATA CHANGE 83 KRAIJSS, KATZ & ACKERMAN, INC. WATER PCB-00048293 Kaley 84 .1 ACKNOWLEDGEMENT OF DEPONENT 2 3 4 5 I, _______ _________________________________ , do hereby certify 6 that I have read the foregoing pages, .. 7 and that the same i s a correct trails c. r 1 p t i on of the 0 a n swers given by me to t h e questions t h e rein 9 propounded, except for the corrections or changes i. n 1. 0 form or s u b st a n c e, if any, noted in the for e g oin g 1 1 E r rata Sheet, 1. 2 1 3 DATE 14 15 16 17 10 1 9 Subscribed and sworn to before me t hi 20 of 19 day 2 J. My c o mm i s s i. on ex p i r e s : 2 2 Notary P u b1ic 23 24 KRAUSE, KATZ & ACKERMAN, INC. WATER PCB-00048294