Document bBNEbMxrxG4VOMkZZ49LK5Lg0

STATE OF ALABAMA IN THE CIRCUIT COURT FOR ETOWAH COUNTY (Transferred from Calhoun County, Alabama) SABRINA ABERNATHY, et al. , Plaintiffs, versus MONSANTO COMPANY, et al., CIVIL ACTION NO. CV- 2 0 0 1 - 832 (Consolidated) Defendants. /__ DEPOSITION OF TOM LACKEY The deposition of TOM LACKEY was taten before Deborah Salers Garrett, Certified Shorthand Reporter, Registered Professional Reporter, as Commissioner, commencing at 1:30 p.m. on January 2, 2002, by the Plaintiffs, at the law offices of Fite & Miller, Suite 400, SouthTrust Bank Building, Anniston, Alabama, pursuant to the stipulations set forth herein. Regional Reporting Service, Inc. 755 Walnut Street Gadsden, Alabama 35901-0755 HARTOLDMON0015413 2 1 APPEARANCES 2 For the Plaintiffs: 3 CHARLES CUNNINGHAM, Esq. Morrissey Building, Suite 200 4 304 West Liberty Street Louisville, Kentucky 40202 5 For the Defendants: 6 LAWRENCE J. MYERS, Esq. 7 SMITH, HELMS, MULLIS & MOORE 1355 Peachtree Street, NE, Suite 7 5 0 8 Atlanta, Georgia 30309 9 INDEX 1 0 Page 11 Stipulations 3^ 12 Reporter's Certificate 10 1 13 EXAMINATIONS 14 witness: TOM LACKEY 15 By Mr. Cunningham 16 Page 4 17 18 Plaintiffs 1 19 One 20 EXHIBITS Marked 6 Offered 21 No other exhibits were marked for 2 2 identification, offered or attached as exhibits hereto. 23 REGIONAL REPORTING SERVICE, INC HARTOLDMON0015414 3 1 STIPULATIONS 2 IT IS STIPULATED AND AGREED by the 3 parties, through their respective counsel, 4 that the deposition of TOM LACKEY may be taken 5 before Deborah Salers Garrett, CSR, RPR, as 6 Commissioner and Notary Public, Alabama at 7 Large, at Birmingham, Alabama, on January 2, 8 2002, at 1:30 p.m. 9 IT IS STIPULATED AND AGREED that the 1 0 signature to and reading of the deposition by 1 1 the witness is waived, the deposition to have 1 2 the same force and effect as if full 1 3 compliance were had with all laws and rules of 14 Court relating to the taking of depositions. 1 5 IT IS STIPULATED AND AGREED that it 1 6 shall not be necessary for any objections to 1 7 be made by counsel to any questions except as 1 8 to form or leading questions and that counsel 1 9 may make objections and assign grounds at the 2 0 time of trial or at the time said deposition 2 1 is offered in evidence or prior thereto. 2 2 IT IS STIPULATED AND AGREED that notice 2 3 of filing by the Commissioner is waived. REOTQNAT, REPORTING SERVICE, INC. HARTOLDMON0015415 4 1 STATE OF ALABAMA. ANNISTON. JANUARY 2. 2002 2 3 TOM LACKEY. 4 after having been first duly sworn, was 5 examined and testified as follows: 6 7 EXAMINATION 8 BY MR. CUNNINGHAM: 9 Q. Sir, my name is Charlie Cunningham. I'm 1 0 going to ask you somequestions today to 11 try to find out what factual information 12 you may have that would be relevant in a 13 lawsuit styled Abernathy, et al., versus 14 Monsanto, et al. Have you ever been in 15 a deposition before? 16 A. Yes . 17 Q. You understand the lady to your left is 1 8 taking down everything that we say 1 9 stenographical1y, and therefore I need 2 0 you to answer in a way that sheknows 2 1 quite clearly what you say. 22 I'm going to tell you a couple of 23 idiosyncrasies about myself that you may ________________________________________________________________________________________________ REGIONAL REPORTING SERVICE, INC. HARTOLDMON0015416 5 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 A. 1 3 Q. 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 A. 2 3 Q. not have encountered in your previous deposition testimony. First, I have a bad habit of asking you a question and I'll either think you have finished when you haven't or I'll have this burst of inspiration and ask another question and have precluded you from completing your answer. If I do that, let us know, because we do want to give you an opportunity to completely answer the questions. Okay? Yes, sir. The second bad habit of mine. I'll ask you a question and make it sound for all the world like I know just exactly what I'm talking about and I don't sometimes. So if I ask you something that doesn't seem right or suggests something that you don't think is so, by all means let us know. Don't assume I know what I'm talking about. Okay? All right. All right. Let's start with a real easy REGIONAL REPORTING SERVICE, INC. HARTOLDMON0015417 6 1 2 A. 3 Q. 4 A. 5 6 7 8 Q. 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 1 7 A. 1 8 Q. 19 20 21 2 2 A. 23 Q. one. Give us your full name, please. Thomas Edward Lackey, Senior. That is L-a-c-k-e-y? L-a-c-k-e-y. (Plaintiffs' Exhibit Number One was marked for identification.) Mr. Lackey, I'm going to ask you to take a quick look at a document there that we will introduce as Exhibit One to your deposition. That is a notice for your deposition. In there it asks you to bring certain types of documents to the deposition. I'm going to guess that you haven't brought any documents with you to the deposition. Is that correct? That's correct. All right, sir. Don't feel bad. Nobody else has been bringing them either. Will you tell us where you reside, please, Mr. Lackey? Munford, Alabama. Munf ord is - - REGIONAL REPORTING SERVICE, INC. HARTOLDMON0015418 7 1 A. 2 Q. 3 4 5 6 7 A. 8 Q. 9 10 A. 11 12 Q. 13 14 A. 15 16 Q . 17 A. 18 19 20 2 1 Q. 22 23 A. South. I think that is where Donald Stewart actually grew up. And as I recall, Mr. Chatman who I took last week, his deposition, I believe he lives in Munford now. Do you know Mr. Chatman? Yes. Can you tell me how long you have lived in Munford? Notlong. Forty-eight years thislast t ime . Okay. And why don't you just tell me where you have lived other than Munford? Well, I've lived at Munford off and on since 1928. Okay. And prior to that I lived in Clay County. I lived there until I married in '49. We lived in Anniston four and a half years. Now, Clay County, that isnortheast of here? Yeah, I guess -- It is over toward REGIONAL REPORTING SERVICE, INC. HARTOLDMON0015419 8 1 2 3 4 5 Q. 6 7 8 A. 9 Q. 10 1 1 A. 12 13 1 4 Q. 15 1 6 A. 11 18 19 20 2 1 Q. 2 2 A. 2 3 Q. Georgia, but it is north of Cleburne. I believe it would be -- it joins Cleburne. It would be south of Cleburne. Okay. And you say you to lived in Anniston four years. What four years would that have been? '49 to '53. What caused you live in the city during that period of time? Well, I worked up here when I married. I had to have a place to live, so it was about as good as any. Okay. What made you move back to Mun ford in '53? Well, my people lived down there. I had a fellow wanted to sell a house and more or less they contacted me. My family did. And I purchased it, and we moved down there. And been stuck there ever since? Can't get enough money up to get out. Okay. Do you recall where in Anniston REGIONAL REPORTING SERVICE, INC. HARTOLDMONO015420 9 1 2 A. 3 Q. 4 5 6 A. 7 8 9 Q. 10 11 12 A. 13 Q. 14 A. 15 16 Q. 17 1 8 A. 1 9 Q. 20 2 1 A. 2 2 Q. 2 3 A. you lived from '49 to '53? 2 0 16 Gurnee. And I have to confess, I'm not familiar with what part of town that is located in . That would be northwest. It is right off Noble Street going north, in fact, the next street over, west. So that is kind of in the same quadrant as the plant. The plant I perceive as being we s t. Well, no. You go north ten blocks. Okay. And then go over one block west. So you would be ten blocks more to the plant. All right. Are you married at this time? Yes. Same lady you were married to way back then? Yeah. Shewon't let me leave. What is her name? Jean. REGIONAL REPORTING SERVICE, INC. HARTOLDMONO015421 10 1 Q. 2 A. 3 Q. 4 A. 5 Q. 6 A. 7 Q. 8 A. 9 Q. 1 0 A. 11 Q . 12 A . 13 Q. 14 15 16 17 1 8 A. 1 9 Q. 20 21 A. 2 2 Q. 23 And the maiden name? Hewitt, H-e-w-i-t-t. Do y'all have any children? Yes. What are their names? Thomas Jr., William, Melanie Corrine. Now, is Melanie married? Yes. And what is her married - Berry. B-e - R-r-y. Do you have any relatives by blood or marriage who are adults, not convicted felons, and residing in Etowah County? Potential jurors is what I'm looking for in Etowah County. Not as I know of. Okay. Do you know if your wife has ever had her PCB level checked? No . And I'm assuming your children have never been checked? REGIONAL REPORTING SERVICE, INC. HARTOLDMONO015422 11 1 A. 2 Q 3 4 A. 5 6 Q 1 A. 8 9 Q10 11 A . 12 Q 13 14 15 A. 16 Q 17 18 A. 19 Q 20 21 22 23 No . Any of your children have any trouble in school? No, sir. Valedictorian of their class, every one of them. Great . Two of them made mechanical engineers and my daughter in computer science. Where did they get theirmechanical engineering degrees? Auburn University. You are the first Auburn man I've encountered. Most folk I see up here are Crimson Tide people. Well, them's outlaws. My condolences. I understand y'all lost a football game this weekend. That's normal for us. Mr. Lackey, I know that you've had a chance to talk to Mr. Myers, your attorney, to prepare for this. I'm wondering if you spoke with anyone else before coming today. REGIONAL REPORTING SERVICE, INC. HARTOLDMONO015423 12 1 A. 2 Q. 3 A. 4 Q. 5 A. 6 Q. 7 8 A. 9 Q. 10 A. 11 12 13 14 1 5 Q. 16 17 18 A . 1 9 Q. 20 21 22 A . 2 3 Q. No, sir. Have you looked at anything? Well, I looked at some information. What did you look at? Some stuff on a previous deposition. Was this your previous testimony in another case? Yes. Do you recall what case it was? No . MR. MYERS: I have a copy of his deposition in the Owens case. It may have been that. MR. CUNNINGHAM: Okay. Was there anything about what youread in that deposition that surprised you or that you didn't remember? No . Okay. Was there anything else that you looked at before today in an effort to get ready for today other than - No . I'm going to assume for the sake of our REGIONAL REPORTING SERVICE, INC. HARTOLDMONO015424 13 1 2 3 4 A. 5 Q. 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 1 8 A. 19 20 21 22 Q. 23 further discussion today that everything you tell me is your own recollection of event s. Yes. If you know something by virtue of having read it or you suddenly remember somebody telling you something, that!a fine. I just want to know that too. Just tell me that is where it is coming from. You have been identified by Monsanto or Solutia as a person they may call as a witness. What is your understanding of what you would testify about in this case? MR. MYERS: Let me object to the form. You can answer. I don't know at the present time. They have several cases out there. So I don't know which one you are dealing with and could care less, really. No one has talked to you about could you come in and talk about this issue or REGIONAL REPORTING SERVICE, INC. HARTOLDMONO015425 14 1 2 A. 3 Q. 4 5 6 7 A. 8 Q 9 A. 10 Q 11 12 A . 13 Q 14 A . 15 16 17 Q 18 A. 19 20 21 Q. 22 23 A. that issue? No . Before we get into what you did for Monsanto, can you tell me about work you have done for any other employer besides Monsanto? I worked at Kilby Steel. How is that spelled? S-t-e-e-1, just like steel. I'm sorry. The first name, was it Kibby ? Kilby, K-i-l-b-y. Where is that located, sir? It was located down on Tenth Street, right on this street here at the railroad track (indicating). Towards Oxford? No, toward Birmingham. Toward where the Monsanto plant is. Used to be the old 78 Highway. I'm with you now. What did you do for Kilby Steel? I worked more or less in the shipping. REGIONAL REPORTING SERVICE, INC. HARTOLDMONO015426 15 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 Q. 8 9 1 0 A. 11 Q. 12 A. 13 Q. 14 15 16 1 7 A. 18 19 20 2 1 Q. 22 23 They were making what they called mosquito bar. You put mosquito nets on them to keep mosquitoes off soldiers. You put one up at each end, and you drape the net over them to keep the mosquitoes off them. You were just banding these up and getting them ready to ship out as opposed to fabricating them? I was loading them in boxcars. When did you do that? Fall of 1940. Okay. And was Kilby Steel -- were they actually rolling steel or just taking steel somebody else had made and fabricating stuff? They had a furnace there and had a bolt shop and made shell casings during the war. That's the biggest thing they thrived on, I think, is war contracts. Now, most shell cases I'm familiar with are brass. Were they rolling brass down there, or was it just steel? REGIONAL REPORTING SERVICE, INC. HARTOLDMONO015427 16 1 A. 2 3 4 5 Q. 6 7 A. 8 9 1 0 Q. 11 12 13 14 15 1 6 A. 1 7 Q. 1 8 A. 19 2 0 Q. 21 22 23 A. I didn't get into that either. They were getting set up for that, and I got an opportunity to go to Monsanto, and I chose Monsanto. So was this the first, like, wage earning job you had? No. I drove a truck prior to that in 1940 for my brother. But I learned then I didn't want to be a truck driver. Okay. My father -- the first job he had was a delivery truck. He found out pretty quick that didn't suit him. You went to Kilby Steel. That didn't last long, a few months. Then you got a chance to hire on with Monsanto? Yes. And been with Monsanto eversince? Yes, except for the three and a half years I was in the Navy in World War II. I watched Pearl Harbor last night. Tell me what you did in the Navy. I'd be curious to know. I was an aircraft mechanic. REGIONAL REPORTING SERVICE, INC. HARTOLDMONO015428 17 1 Q. 2 A. 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 Q. 10 A. 11 12 Q. 13 14 A. 15 16 17 18 19 20 2 1 Q. 2 2 A. 2 3 Q. Did you serve on a carrier? I served on a seaplane carrier, three hundred ten feet long, forty-one feet wide, carried a hundred thousand gallons of hundred octane, seventy-five tons of ammunition bombs, and then you had your five-inch forty millimeter. If you got hit, don't worry. Wouldn't be around long enough to worry? No. But I was land based most of the time. And as a mechanic for -- You worked on seaplanes then, like if one came in - I worked on advance fighters, trainers. Then I worked on bombers. Then when I went over seas and got on this seaplane -- I worked on the seaplane, big flying boat which had a big two thousand horsepower engine on it. The engines is what I worked on. Honorable discharge I presume? Yes. Came back to Alabama? REGIONAL REPORTING SERVICE, INC. HARTOLDMONO015429 18 1 A. 2 Q 3 A. 4 Q. 5 A. 6 Q 7 A. 8 Q. 9 A. 10 11 V.. 12 Q . 13 A . 14 Q . 15 A . 16 17 18 19 20 2 1 Q. 22 A. 23 Q. Yes, sir. Got married? Three years later. Started having valedictorians? Yes. Okay. How is your health, Mr. Lackey? Now ? Yes. Well, about as good as anybody else that is my age, better than a lot of them. I do what I want to do. You are how old? Seventy-nine. You are a good looking seventy- nine. Thank you. I'll be eighty two month s from now. And today would be my sixty-first anniversary with Monsanto. I went to work on the 2nd of January of '41. This is 1-02, which makes sixty-one years. Okay. So it was January 2nd of - '41. Hire date? All right. Now, I asked you REGIONAL REPORTING SERVICE, INC. HARTOLDMONO015430 19 1 about your health and you said "now." 2 Your lawyer will teach you that when you 3 say things like that it is going to make 4 me suspect that I need to ask my 5 question differently. Have you had some 6 health problems in the past that are now 7 behind you? 8 A. Yes. I had a kidney stone one time when 9 I was in service. 1 0 Q. Ever had any kind of cancer? 11 A. v Yes. 12 Q. What kind have you had? 13 A. Prostate. 14 Q. Okay. Ever had anyproblems with your 15 1iver ? 1 6 A. Not that as I know of. 17 Q. Do you consume alcohol? 18 A. No . 1 9 Q. Have you ever? 2 0 A. Oh, yes. If you've been a serviceman 2 1 and a sailer, you have. 2 2 Q. All right. And what abouttobacco? 23 Ever used tobacco products? REGIONAL REPORTING SERVICE, INC. HARTOLDMONO015431 1 A. 2 3 4 5 6 7 Q. 8 9 A. 10 Q 11 A . 12 Q 13 14 A . 15 Q. 16 17 1 8 A. 19 Q. 20 21 22 A. 23 Q. I did then. Not regular, but off on dates I would use tobacco. And cigarettes was a premium then. You could go wherever you wanted to. If you had cigarettes, you were in. It is kind of like drugs today. Okay. Are you still employed by Monsanto today? No , sir. Are you just retired? I kve been retired sixteen years. Are you receiving any kind of money these days in the form of a pension Yes, sir. Okay. Were you involved at all in the union? I think it was the International Chemical Workers. I belonged to it a while. Okay. Did you hold any position in the union such as shop steward or committeeman? Trustee, at one time. Do you remember roughly when you served REGIONAL REPORTING SERVICE, INC. HARTOLDMONO015432 1 2 A. 3 Q. 4 5 A. 6 Q. 7 8 A. 9 1 0 Q. 11 A. 12 Q. 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 2 1 A. 22 Q. 23 as trustee? Late '50s, '55, between '55 and '60. And I'm assuming that is with the local rather than the national? Yes, sir. And what were your responsibilities as a trustee? Well, you kindof audit the books, money. Okay. Where^.the finances were going. Now, when I took Mr. Chatman last week, I understood from him that he had been one of the first guys to integrate the plant in the sense of going from laborer to operator. Was the union somewhat also -- maybe segregated is too strong a word, but were there different positions that whites and blacks could hold within the union ? Well, there were at one time. That changed in the years you were there? REGIONAL REPORTING SERVICE, INC. HARTOLDMONO015433 22 1 A. 2 Q. 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 A. 11 12 13 14 15 Q. 16 17 18 1 9 A. 2 0 Q. 21 2 2 A. 23 Yes. Well, let's take your work history at Monsanto, and I'd like to start with the first job you had and work through to the job you had the day you retired. If that is a hundred different jobs, maybe we will rethink that. How many different titles did you hold in your tenure there ? Operator, chief operator, production f oreman ,v. maintenance foreman, back to production foreman, then material handling foreman. That is what I ended up with when I retired. That sounds manageable. Let's start with operator. You are saying the day you hired on, January 2, 1941, you came in as an operator? Yes. Tell me what positions you were -- what you were operating. Well, I worked in the carbide screening plant, and I did what they call screw REGIONAL REPORTING SERVICE, INC. HARTOLDMONO015434 23 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 Q. 11 A. 12 1 3 Q. 14 1 5 A. 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 2 3 Q. cap boy. There was a hundred pound can that came off the scale. I had a cap with a gasket on it and a wrench, and I put it on top of that can and twisted it. And it rolled down a conveyor, and they put another cap on it. And they called that the dummy cover, and that sealed the top of it. And it went on down the conveyor to the warehouse. Okay. I worked in^there about six weeks. And then I - - I'm sorry. The contents of those cans was c arbide ? Yes. Then I went from there down to the abrasive plant where they made emery grit, emery paper. And I worked there until I went in the service, about the 13th of November of '42. But intermittently I worked some in the research department, go and work a week or two weeks and go back. What would you do in the research REGIONAL REPORTING SERVICE, INC. HARTOLDMONO015435 24 1 2 A. 3 4 5 6 7 8 Q. 9 A. 1 0 Q. 11 12 A. 13 14 Q. 15 16 A. 1 7 Q. 18 19 20 2 1 A. 22 Q. 23 department ? Well, they were making these small products, mixes you would make, batches. When we got through, go back to your department. It might be -- in a batch you might come out twenty pounds or ten pounds or a hundred pounds. Sma11 stuff? Sma11 stuff. And what was your educational background, Mr .v Lackey? Well, eighth grade in school and four years of correspondence, high school. Did you ever obtain any kind of high school certificate? No . So when you worked in the research department, you were kind of the hands-on kind of guy who would actually - Do the work. Somebody would say maybe if we could mix this and this -- REGIONAL REPORTING SERVICE, INC. HARTOLDMONO015436 25 1 A. 2 Q 3 A. 4 5 6 7 8 9 Q. 10 11 12 13 14 A . 15 Q. 16 17 18 A. 19 Q. 20 21 22 23 A. Well, they would give it to me on paper Like a recipe almost? Yes . Then you would sample it . Maybe you would take it to the 1ab. And they wou 1 d give you an analysis on it, and maybe you might have to adjust that mix Sometimes you would run your.own chart on pH, color. Now, when you were doing this occasional research project during your early years as an operator, dovyou ever recall any of that involving making some kind of chlorinated biphenyl type product? No . And you knew enough about what you were doing that if you had been doing that, you would have known it? Yes. All right. So what's the next thing you did there after this working in the emery and the carbide and the occasional bit in the research? I went in the Navy. REGIONAL REPORTING SERVICE, INC. HARTOLDMONO015437 26 1 Q. 2 3 4 A. 5 Q. 6 7 A. 8 Q. 9 10 11 A. 12 13 1 4 Q. 15 16 17 A . 18 Q 19 A. 20 21 Q 22 23 Okay. And then you came back, and what was the first thing you did when you got back? Back to the research department. Okay. At this point we are roughly in the '45, '46 time frame? '46, May of '46. Okay. And what were you -- Youwere in research. Give me some idea of what you were doing there? Well, I was mixing different products, working on whatever they had there day to day to do. Okay. And again in this time frame to your knowledge were you involved at all with chlorinated biphenyl type products? (Witness shakes head negatively.) Okay . There was one that you used potash in a product. I know they did some early work when the Army brought nerve gas stuff back from Germany. Some of the research on REGIONAL REPORTING SERVICE, INC. HARTOLDMONO015438 27 1 2 3 A. 4 Q. 5 6 A. 7 8 Q. 9 10 11 12 A. 13 14 15 16 17 18 1 9 Q. 20 2 1 A. 22 23 American nerve gas munitions was done out there, right? Yes. You were involved in part of that res e arch. I was involved in part of the project after I got out of research. I don't want you to tell us anything where you have to shoot us after you tell us, but I assume not much of that stuff is secret any more.v. I wouldn't think. Maybe I shouldn't say think. They publicized it or published it in the paper in the tricities. They made it up there. When they moved it from Anniston, from research or special products, they put a plant in Muscle Shoals. Right. That is where they made one of the precursors to the - That's was a part of it. It wasn't the whole thing. It was a part, and it went somewhere else. I think they said there REGIONAL REPORTING SERVICE, INC. HARTOLDMON0015439 28 1 2 Q. 3 4 5 A. 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 1 4 Q. 1 5 A. 16 17 18 1 9 Q. 20 21 22 2 3 A. were twelve parts. We had three. And the phosgene was kind of a feed stock that you all did something to to create this component? Well, the phosgene was in the isocyanates, which was foam rubber or insulation. Mix it and spray it with a spray gun on that wall, and it would swell up about that thick as insulation. They used it on airplane wings when they were getting up to faster speed to cut out what they call flutter, vibrate the wing. The skin would vibrate? Right. And put it in hollow core propellers. We made that in small batches. I think for a while we made something like forty pounds a week. And the reason you mentioned phosgene when I mentioned the word chlorinated is I assume you understand that phosgene had chlorine in it? I guess it would. I never give it a REGIONAL REPORTING SERVICE, INC. HARTOLDMONO015440 29 1 2 Q. 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 A. 12 13 14 1 5 Q. 16 17 18 1 9 A. 2 0 Q. 21 2 2 A. 23 Q. thought. Because it is Cl. Right, Cl. Now, I have always kind of assumed -- maybe you can answer this for me -- that the development of the parathion that they made for so long out there was tied to some of the research that had been done on the chemical munitions because they were both organophosphate type products. Do you know if that's the case? I've heard them say it was a ha ]^f -sister t o it . But I don't know. It has some o f the same antidotes if you got poisoned with it. Okay. So after you -- what's the next title that you had after you're job as an operator in the research department in post 1946? Chief operator. When would you havegone to operator? 151. chief And I'm assuming that was a logical step REGIONAL REPORTING SERVICE, INC. HARTOLDMONO015441 30 1 2 3 4 A. 5 Q. 6 7 A. 8 Q. 9 10 11 A. 12 13 14 15 Q. 16 17 18 19 2 0 A. 21 22 23 for you to take, that that was a promotion in terms of pay and responsibility? Yes. You ran the shift. Okay. And how many people might you have been responsible for? About three. Okay. And can you tell me what you recall doing as a chief operator in the '50s? Well, in one job you ran the still.v They distill this stuff. Of course you supervised or coordinated work for the others to bring it up to that point. So you would have people under you, these three people, doing certain things, but you are kind of sitting back at the still and bringing it all together, making the product? Well, I ran the still. I was responsible for that. As well as the other chief operators. It was shift work, four of them, and you went around REGIONAL REPORTING SERVICE, INC. HARTOLDMONO015442 1 2 Q 3 4 5 A. 6 Q 7 8 A. 9 Q 10 A . 11 Q 12 13 14 A . 15 Q 16 17 A . 18 Q 19 20 A. 21 22 23 Q . the clock. You rotated, so it is not like you always worked nights or always worked days ? No. Rotated every two weeks. And what sort of things, products were you making as chief operator? That was organophosphate. Parathion? No. Nerve gas. Okay. Did you generate a still bottom^ in part of that process with the still you operated? Yes. And what is still bottom? That is still, when you say s-t-i-1-1? Yes. Tell me what you did with that still bottom. We drummed it out, and really they hauled it off, but I don't know where it went, to be honest with you. I presume that you were fairly careful REGIONAL REPORTING SERVICE, INC. HARTOLDMONO015443 32 1 2 3 A. 4 Q. 5 6 7 8 9 A. 10 11 Q. 12 13 A. 1 4 Q. 15 16 1 7 A. 18 Q. 19 20 2 1 A. 22 23 to avoid having much contact with that stuff? Well, you do that with all chemicals. Sure. And I suppose when you are fooling with it, it is at an elevated temperature where even if it was innocuous it would still hurt you just because it was so hot? Well, most of it. Most of it you control the temperature. What part of the plant was that particular still located in? It was over in the west side. Okay. So the runoff from that would have been headed toward the railroad tracks? If you had any. And obviously I assume you all tried to minimize any waste water streams you might have from that? The only waste water you would have had is maybe some cooling water. To the business of my knowledge we used REGIONAL REPORTING SERVICE, INC. HARTOLDMON0015444 1 2 3 4 5 Q. 6 7 8 9 A. 10 11 12 1 3 Q. 14 15 A. 16 17 18 1 9 Q. 20 A. 2 1 Q. 22 23 compressors to cool the condenser and reactor. So I don't know of any water that would be contaminated with anything from that. Okay. So y1 all had a system in place for that particular process where you were able to keep the waste water essentially to zero? Yes. Unless it was in the air compressor, which would still be -- when it went through the air compressor it would still be pure water. All right. When did you move onto some other type of position or task? I went -- When they started the chlorine department up, I went from special products to start up the chlorine in ' 52 . Still as a chief operator? Yes. Now, as I recall, making the chlorine, you didn't use a still for that but what they call these denora cells? REGIONAL REPORTING SERVICE, INC. HARTOLDMON0015445 34 1 A. 2 Q. 3 4 5 6 A. 7 8 Q. 9 10 11 A. 12 13 14 15 Q. 16 17 18 A. 19 Q. 20 2 1 A. 22 Q. 23 Yes. Okay. And again, I'm assuming your job was to kind of ride herd on that process and keep an eye on a couple of other workers ? Yes, plus operating the motor generator set. . And it is my understanding that the denora system basically worked by flowing brine over mercury cells? Yes. With DC current going through it. The mercury picked up your caustic, and of course you pulled your chlorine off by vacuum. Then that chlorine was a feed stock for other things y1 all were making in the plant? Yes. Thatheretofore y1 all had to buy that chlorine from somebody? Yes. And I understand -- and this may have come after you were working there, but REGIONAL REPORTING SERVICE, INC. HARTOLDMONO015446 35 1 2 3 A. 4 5 Q. 6 A. 1 8 Q. 9 10 A. 11 Q. 12 13 14 15 A. 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 eventually y1 all did learn you were losing some of that mercury? Lost a lot out the back gate with people stealing it. Really? . A truck load one time, a hundred and twenty-two thousand dollars' worth. Wow. You've got to have a pretty heavy truck to haul that much. Backed a tractor under a trailer. I'm more concerned, as you will understand, more with it not running out on wheels but running out in water or air. I don't believe much went out in water or air, because the insurance company was tight on you. They come in from the lab and ran samples each week. If you had it on the floor, it would show up in those samples, and you would have to decontaminate and clean it up. You had drains down there that would catch it when you hit the bottom floor, and you REGIONAL REPORTING SERVICE, INC. HARTOLDMONO015447 36 1 2 Q. 3 4 A. 5 Q. 6 A. 7 8 9 1 0 Q. 11 12 13 A. 14 15 16 17 18 1 9 Q. 20 21 2 2 A. 23 wash it down pick it up and recover it. And that stuff had some economic value to Monsanto ? You mean the mercury? Yes . Yeah. You had to pay about eight hundred dollars for a flask. So if. you loss a flask, you lost about eight hundred dollars. So because of that they were careful, and they had these systems in place to keep track of it and avoid losing it? Yes. Of course they had some high uses there at the end, and they couldn't figure it out. And I had left there, and they sent me back and closed it down. And I got a tipoff, and they were stealing it. So you think some of the losses were not because it was going out in waste water or vaporizing - It was going out the back gate. When I got tipped off and went and counted all REGIONAL REPORTING SERVICE, INC. HARTOLDMONO015448 37 1 my empty flasks - - and I counted them 2 every day. And I came in on Monday 3 morning, which we had had it closed down 4 to clean it up. And he told me he was 5 missing some mercury. I said pull the 6 trap. I immediately counted my 7 containers. I asked him, "Did you move 8 any of them? Did you have your men move 9 any?" He said no. 10 I hunted and hunted. I couldn't 11 find it. The next day I found where 12 there was a ventilating fan open, and 13 they loaded it in a pickup and went out 1 4 the back gate. Then of course, I had 1 5 already reported my other information to 1 6 higher up, and then when I got that, I 1 7 reported that. And they turned it over 1 8 to the FBI. 1 9 So when they got the truck load -- - 2 0 The FBI was watching them and got them. 2 1 But had it not been for my tip they 2 2 probably would have pulled a lot of it 2 3 out from under. That is what they had REGIONAL REPORTING SERVICE, INC. HARTOLDMONO015449 38 1 2 3 Q. 4 5 A. 6 7 8 Q. 9 10 11 12 A. 13 14 15 1 6 Q. 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 been doing, taking it out each week, so much . A little at a time thinking no one would not ice ? Well, the only thing to notice is your uses continue getting higher and higher. And where was it going? And that is pretty basic chemical plant 101, that you keep track of what comes and what goes out, and their should be a balance to that, right? Like if you counted up how much electricity you used and converted that into a figure, that is how much caustic chlorine you had. And I have seen some accounting papers where they did that in the Monsanto plant throughout the years. They would know how many pennies per hundred pounds they spent on mercury to make chlorine and how much they spent on salt and how much they spent on electricity, as you s ay, right ? REGIONAL REPORTING SERVICE, INC. HARTOLDMONO015450 39 1 A. 2 Q. 3 4 5 6 A. 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 Yes. As a chief operator have you seen them come to you and say we seem to be use; what' going on? Well, you took a meter reading every day. Then we went down to the boss' office, and he ran it out and that went on to St. Louis that day. And if you missed reading the meter correct, you'd get a visit, and I've got one of them. Let's see you read that meter. But that was for production. That meter was very important. Of course, you took a reading every hour or every thirty minutes of what the generator was doing or the -- took the generator out and ied it, made it more reliable. And you produced more because you could put more load on there and it stay steady. The generators were from France and were used. One of them wasn't any good much. You had to drop your load on REGIONAL REPORTING SERVICE, INC. HARTOLDMONO015451 40 1 2 3 Q. 4 A. 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 Q. 13 14 15 A. 1 6 Q. 17 18 1 9 A. 20 21 2 2 Q. 23 it every once and a while and let it cool down. Are these gas fueled? No. AC and some of the DC. But somehow or another the generator would get the brush out and sparks coming out of it. And you would have to cut your load down. It burned up, and they rebuilt it, but they never did get that out of there. So they got those mechanical rectifiers in place. When you finished your tour as chief operator in the chlorine department, what was your next task. I got to be foreman. Now, what did you do differently as the foreman from what you were doing as chief operator? I sat in the big chair and checked on the others. I worked days. I didn't work shift. I would assume that would be the main thing. You were kind of over all REGIONAL REPORTING SERVICE, INC. HARTOLDMONO015452 41 1 2 3 A. 4 5 6 7 Q. 8 9 1 0 A. 11 Q. 12 A. 13 Q. 14 15 A. 1 6 Q. 17 18 19 20 A. 2 1 Q. 22 23 A. shifts, but you got to pick the shift you were there? Well, I was on days. I was on call all the time, so it didn't matter about the time I was there. I was there or on call. If things went to heck in a hand basket, it didn't matter what shift it was, your phone rang? Right. And that started when? 1960. How long did you serve as foreman of the chlorine department? '62. And again it is logical that you would want to move from chief operator to foreman, a better position pay-wise, I pre sume ? Yes. Theoretically better house,depending on how many late nightphone calls yougot. Well, that plant, I knew it well enough REGIONAL REPORTING SERVICE, INC. HARTOLDMONO015453 42 1 2 3 Q. 4 5 6 A. 7 Q. 8 9 A. 1 0 Q. 11 12 A. 13 Q. 14 15 1 6 A. 17 18 19 2 0 Q. 21 22 23 A. that you didn't get too much. I'd settle most of it on the phone. I take it the denora system -- there weren't a lot of moving parts to it, I presume? No, just electricity and pumps. After 1962 what was the next position that you held? Maintenance. Maintenance. And was it foreman supervisor or - Yes. And that was starting in '62. And was there any particular part of the plant you were charged with maintaining? I had the carpenters, painters, janitors, laborers, the sewers, the spur railroad tracks, and all that to maintain. Carpenters, janitors, laborers, the railroad track, the sewers. Anything else? I filled in for the other foremen when REGIONAL REPORTING SERVICE, INC. HARTOLDMONOOI5454 43 1 2 3 Q. 4 5 6 7 A. 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 Q. 15 1 6 A. 17 18 19 20 21 22 2 3 Q. they went on vacation, the mechanical f oremen. Okay. So in other words, as opposed to maintaining stills and the pipelines and the tanks, you were kind of maintaining everything else at the site? Well, I had the grass, yards, had to repair the railroad tracks. Back then they put diesel on and started spreading the track, come around the curve with that light-gauge track, had to put some ties in in order to get that thing back in gauge after they come back over it. I worked on the railroad one summer. I know what you are talking about? Keep them from spreading. That diesel will spread those narrow-gauge track - not narrow gauge, but light weight. We finally put the heavy weight in. If you don't do that overnight, you've got a lot of track. You don't get that kind o f money. All right. So you were handling -- And REGIONAL REPORTING SERVICE, INC. HARTOLDMONO015455 44 1 2 3 4 A. 5 6 7 Q. 8 9 10 11 12 A. 13 14 15 Q. 16 17 18 19 20 21 2 2 A. 23 the sewers I assume required some routine maintenance to keep them up to snuf f. Yeah. And they added, too, you know changed. Usually they used contractors to do that. Now, there are different kinds of sewers. The average lay person is going to think that sewer is something that runs from their bathroom to some municipal treatment plant. Well, you had that type sewer, but this is main storm sewer, water, and sewers 1ike that. Now, as of 1962 I would have known of three kinds of sewers out there that I think you might be talking about. One would be a collection system that drained directly to the municipal treatment facility down near Snow Creek and Choccolocco Creek. Right? Well, in '62 probably somebody was. But some of it we had already built, I REGIONAL REPORTING SERVICE, INC. HARTOLDMONO015456 45 1 2 Q. 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 1 0 A. 11 12 13 14 Q. 15 16 17 18 1 9 A. 2 0 Q. 21 2 2 A. 2 3 Q. believe, a waste treatment plant. Right. A second type of sewer would be you had your own biological treatment facility for certain waste waters, particularly off the parathion department, drained into. The bacteria would detoxify those wastes, and then that was discharged out into the surface waters, right? Went down to Snow Creek. Went through the clarifier, and when it got through there it went on down and went through the Anniston treatment plant. And then the third would have been just sort of sewers that took off various storm water and waste water from the facility and went out the east side of the plant through a drainage ditch? Went through a limestone pit. Were you in charge of that limestone pit? Not at that time. Okay. So all you really had REGIONAL REPORTING SERVICE, INC. HARTOLDMONO015457 46 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 1 0 A. 1<L 1 2 Q. 13 14 A. 15 1 6 Q. 1 7 A. 1 8 Q. 19 20 21 2 2 A. 23 responsibility for at that time as the maintenance foreman in the '62 time frame was keeping the sewers intact in the sense they didn't leak into the ground? Was it something that did happen though, that these things would leak, particularly given the caustic nature of some of the stuff running through them? Well, they might get thin. Then you replaced them. What was the typical composition of your sewer in terms of concrete pipe - Terra cotta type is what it is. Some of it may have been concrete. Okay. To my knowledge it was terra cotta. All right. And you were in charge of laborers. Again, Mr. Chatman talked about a laborer going packaging of various things. Was that - That was in the production department. What I had, they cut the grass, did REGIONAL REPORTING SERVICE, INC. HARTOLDMON0015458 47 1 2 3 4 Q. 5 6 7 8 A. 9 Q. 10 11 v_A . 12 13 14 15 1 6 Q. 17 18 19 A. 2 0 Q. 21 22 23 janitorial service, all hauled materials off the plant, picked up stuff, things 1ikes that. What about waste? I read stuff and talked to people about waste being hauled to the dump. Would that have been part of your people? No . Who would have been there in charge of that limestone pit? Shipping department hadthe limestone hauled in there, and I think Mr. Taffee had it a while. And prior to his time I don't know which one had it, but I know he inherited the environmentalists. Who was your supervisor when you were the maintenance foreman for this component you have told you us about? Bob Turchiet. After becomingmaintenance foreman as you have described for us in 1960, what is the next time you would have had a job or title shift? REGIONAL REPORTING SERVICE, INC. HARTOLDMONO015459 48 1 A. The next year I went down to the Niran 2 department as maintenance foreman. 3 Q. Okay. So in 1963 you become maintenance 4 foreman at Niran, which is the trade 5 name for parathion? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. There I presume your responsibilities 8 were to maintain the equipment used to 9 make Niran? 1 0 A. Yes. 1 1 Q.^ Any other responsibility as you recall 12 in that job position? 13 A. No . 14 Q. And again you started a moment ago to 15 tell us a little bit about what was done 1 6 with the waste generated off that 1 7 process. But if you would, what role if 1 8 any did you have as a maintenance 1 9 foreman in making sure the wastes 2 0 generated in the Niran production were 2 1 adequately dealt with? 22 A. They put it in drums, and then the 23 shipping department picked it up and REGIONAL REPORTING SERVICE, INC. HARTOLDMONO015460 1 2 3 4 Q. 5 6 A. 7 Q. 8 9 A. 1 0 Q. 11 12 13 14 1 5 A. 1 6 Q. 17 18 19 20 A. 21 Q 22 A. 23 Q - took it to the landfill and put it in a certain place there that Mr. Taffee had designated. All right.Were you actually involved in making that happen? No . You just know that is what was done with it ? Yes. All right. And now, it is not as apparent to me why one would shift from maintenance foreman to maintenance foreman Niran. Was there a particular reason you shifted positions? The boss said you are going down there. That's the bestreason of all. Okay. How long did you stay on as the maintenance foreman in the Niran department ? '64, August 31st of ' 64 . So on 8-31- 64 you became what? Product ion f o reman. Okay . REGIONAL REPORTING SERVICE, INC. HARTOLDMONO015461 50 1 A. 2 3 4 5 6 1 8 Q. 9 10 11 12 13 A. 14 15 Q. 16 17 18 1 9 A. 2 0 Q. 21 22 23 And that was supposed to have been going to each department and relieving the production foreman to do a specific job in his department. And I operated the department while he was taking care of that need. So the first place they sent me back to was chlorine. So when you say production foreman, you weren't for instance production foreman in Niran or production foreman for Aroslor. You were kind of the utility infielder at the plant at that point? Well, they assigned me to chlorine. When I finished there I went to Aroclor. So you went to chlorine initially. We don't need to rehash what you were doing there. Roughly when did you wind up in Aroclor? ' 65 . Now, at this point I take it this is the first time you have had any kind of involvement with the Aroclor production, correct ? REGIONAL REPORTING SERVICE, INC. HARTOLDMON0015462 51 1 A. 2 3 Q. 4 A. 5 6 Q. 7 8 A. 9 Q. 10 11 12 A. 1 3 Q. 14 A. 15 16 17 18 Q. 19 20 2 1 A. 2 2 Q. 23 No. Yes. I was maintenance - - relief -- maintenance foreman over there. Okay. When I was on that first maintenance j ob . But that wouldn't have been very many weeks, I take it? No. A week or two weeks at a time. So how long were you there serving as production foreman for the Aroclor depart m-e n t ? Until it went down in '72. So you were there from '65 to '72? Yeah. They would work on expansion or start up on biphenyl. Then I went to PNP -- no -- P2S5 and worked on startup up there. But if that is a seven-year period, you probably spent six of those years you think as a production guy in Aroclor? Pretty close. Tell me if you would please what sort of responsibility you had as a production REGIONAL REPORTING SERVICE, INC. HARTOLDMONO015463 52 1 2 3 A. 4 5 6 Q. 7 8 9 10 11 A. 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 1 9 Q. 20 21 22 23 foreman when you were billeted there in the Aroclor department? Well, I was it. The other foreman was out doing the assignments they had assigned him to. And I don't doubt that, but I have no idea what -- I mean, I could guess, but I don't want to guess. I want you to tell me what would you do on a typical day? You'd checSc your records and your schedule, fill out your schedules, your shipments, what you are going to ship, your blends you are going to make, make up a blend sheet for the operators to make. And of course you have different orders that came in from shipping that you had to produce. And I take it that is because you would get -- were you involved at all in making biphenyl at that point, or biphenyl came to you from a different department ? REGIONAL REPORTING SERVICE, INC. HARTOLDMONO015464 53 1 A. 2 3 Q. 4 5 6 7 A. 8 Q. 9 10 11 12 A. 13 Q. 14 15 16 17 1 8 A. 19 20 21 22 23 It came to me from a different department. So youwould get biphenyl from the biphenyl still and chlorine from the chlorine department, and you would mix those two together and make Aroclor. Yes . And depending on what the sales department needed on a particular day, you could make up one type of Aroclor or another ? Yes. Now, as I understand it, you had a still that you did this in, where you would mix this biphenyl and the chlorine and heat it up and take it off after a certain amount of time. You put it in the chlorinator, what they call the chlorinator, and you had a distributor, and you fed the chlorine in the bottom. And the liquid come down through a packet, which is metal turning. And it spread out, and of REGIONAL REPORTING SERVICE, INC. HARTOLDMONO015465 54 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 Q. 8 9 10 11 12 13 A. 14 15 16 Q. 17 A . 18 Q. 19 20 2 1 A. 22 Q. 23 course your chlorine came in contact with it. After you got it chlorinated up to a certain level of gravity for that specific grade of Aroclor, then you pump it over into a tank. And then they pumped it into the still and distill it. Let me stop you there. I've seen them talk about batch chlorination and continuous process chlorination. Which one or both did you work? MR. MYERS: v.At what point? MR. CUNNINGHAM: Any point. All of them. Chlorination was all in the Aroclor department, under one man, a f oreman. And you ran both kinds of chiorinators? Yes. You say you would keep pumping chlorine to it until you had the right degree of chlorination? Yes. And the way you knew you had that was by the specific gravity of the liquid REGIONAL REPORTING SERVICE, INC. HARTOLDMONO015466 55 1 A. 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 1 0 Q. 11 A. 12 Q. 13 14 1 5 A. 16 17 Q. 1 8 A. 19 2 0 Q. 21 22 23 Yes. You had a rolling meter telling you how many went in, how many pounds you put in per hour. Then at a certain time you knew to go sample it, see where your level was, and then come on up. You didn't wait until it jumped over and over-chiorinate. If you did you had to go to a higher level, and it became a dif f e rent - Blend? -- Aroclor. Instead of 1254, you would have a batch of 1260 and have to start over again to make the 1254 you wanted? 1254 was made from a different stock, which was Santowax. Okay. But that was the bottoms off the biphenyl, the Santowax was. You talked about taking this liquid off the chlorinator and putting it into a still. And that process was designed, as I understand it, basically to purify REGIONAL REPORTING SERVICE, INC. HARTOLDMONO015467 56 1 2 3 A. 4 5 6 7 8 Q. 9 1 0 A. 11 Q. 12 13 14 15 1 6 A. 1 7 Q. 18 19 2 0 A. 2 1 Q. 22 23 it and give it better electrical properties? Well, if you stilled it and left your bottoms on it, you make different cuts on it with gasoline. With Aroclor you only took one cut. When it got so high, what was left were still bottoms. And those are sometimes referred to as Montars? Yes. Now, are you familiar w^th the chemistry of this stuff? Do you understand that Aroclor 1248 would actually have a number of different kinds of chemical molecules in it? Not to talk about. What you understood was that it would have a particular specific gravity, meaning a particular weight? Ye s, sir. Density, if you will. And that was a function of how long and how chlorinated it got? REGIONAL REPORTING SERVICE, INC. HARTOLDMON0015468 57 1 A. 2 Q. 3 4 5 6 A. 7 8 Q. 9 10 A. 11 Q. 12 13 14 15 16 1 7 A. 18 19 20 21 2 2 Q. 23 Yes, sir. And what did you all do with these Montars, these still bottoms off the still? You didn't sell those, I take it. Those had to be discarded. Those went to the landfill. We did sell some . But that was a fairly small fraction of what you weregenerating? Yes, sir. And I have seen a documentvthat suggested that the percentage of Montar that you all would generate was roughly ten percent of your Aroclor production. Do you have any information to support or refute that? No. Again, you took your chlorine, how much chlorine you used and figure your production. It could vary a little bit based on how far you went down to still bot tom. And did you have any role to play in the process or managing the process of REGIONAL REPORTING SERVICE, INC. HARTOLDMONO015469 58 1 2 3 A. 4 5 Q. 6 7 A. 8 Q. 9 10 11 A. 12 13 Q. 14 15 16 17 18 1 9 A. 2 0 Q. 21 22 2 3 A. removing these Montars from the still and getting them to the dump? Put them on the dock, and the shipping department picked them up. And when these things came out of the still, they were hot, were they not? Pretty hot. And it was vented to the outside so you wouldn't get those fumes building up at the plant? Yes. They may have gone through a scrubber. I haven't ever seen anything to indicate back in the early '60s that they had a scrubber. Now, there was some discussion in the '70s about having a brink coalescer in that stream. Do you know what a brink coalescer is? Yes. Do you ever recall having to change some cartridges for one of those in that particular process? We changed them out, I believe, while it REGIONAL REPORTING SERVICE, INC. HARTOLDMONOOI5470 59 1 2 3 4 5 6 Q. 7 8 A. 9 10 11 12 Q. 13 14 15 16 17 1 8 A. 19 20 2 1 Q. 22 23 was running. But then we put one downstream filled with coke. We put a pump on it and what missed would get knocked out, and we would pump it out and drum it and pump it back. Do you recall roughly when y'all started that process ? They used it prior to the expansion and they put in the new method. And the new method -- So they put this other thing in. ^ And when they finally decided to start thinking about this air stream, they did realize there was some stuff getting through, right? MR. MYERS: Object to the form. Go ahead. Well, you were selling it -- They were trying to keep it out, if there was any going through. Well, you all were never at a loss for this Montar, right? You always had more than you could sell. You were always REGIONAL REPORTING SERVICE, INC. HARTOLDMONO015471 60 1 2 3 A. 4 Q 5 A. 6 Q 7 8 9 1 0 A. 11 12 Q. 13 14 1 5 A. 16 17 Q. 18 19 A. 2 0 Q. 21 22 A. 23 Q. sending some of it to the dump, right? MR. MYERS: Object to the form. Yes As far as you kno w ? We sent what we didn't sell. So it is not like this thing had a true economic value to Monsanto, this Montar, certainly not the stuff that was going out the exhaust fan? Well, it would have if you were losing any Aroclor because that's your money,,. Okay. That isa different story. Obviously the Aroclor was a product you were selling. No. It was the Montars, the bottoms off the Aroclor. But you didn't sell all the Montars that you generated? No . Sold a small fraction of it, and a large fraction of it went to the landfill? Yes. Now, howbigwere theskids that were REGIONAL REPORTING SERVICE, INC. HARTOLDMONO015472 61 1 2 3 A. 4 5 Q. 6 7 8 9 A. 10 11 12 Q. 13 14 15 16 17 1 8 A. 19 20 2 1 Q. 22 2 3 A. used to haul this Montar up to the landfill? I think it was forty-seven gallon top drum with a ring and lids. I've seen discussions in the documents about at some point in time using skids. Are you saying they never used a skid while you were there? Not as I recall. We worked on one that would do that. But we never did get it perfected. What role if any did you have in monitoring the waste streams coming off this Aroclor production in terms of waste waters or the kind of vapors or air streams we alluded to a little earlier? Pumps and samples. Take the samples up and carried them to the lab, and they analyzed it. Now, let me ask you to tell me when y'all were doing that. Every morning. REGIONAL REPORTING SERVICE, INC. HARTOLDMONO015473 62 1 Q. 2 3 4 5 6 A. 7 Q. 8 9 1 0 A. 11 12 13 14 15 Q. 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 2 3 A. So in 1965 when you started as a production foreman in the Aroclor department, y'all would have been picking up samples every day of the waste waters that were coming off - Yes. . -- and taking it to the lab and finding out how much Aroclor was in those waste wa t e rs ? Yes. If you had a small pump, you continuously sample from a jug there. In twenty-four hours, you'd go down and get the sample, and they would empty the j ug . Do you ever recall somebody coming back -- either a supervisor of yours or somebody from the lab, and saying we have too much Aroclor in this waste water. We need to tighten some valves or put in a sump. We have to somehow reduce the amount of contamination getting into this? Well, they had some get down there, of REGIONAL REPORTING SERVICE, INC. HARTOLDMONO015474 63 1 2 3 4 Q. 5 6 7 A. 8 9 Q. 1 0 A. 11 12 13 1 4 Q. 15 16 17 1 8 A. 19 20 21 22 23 course. And of course they talk about sumps and they talk about ways of keeping it all in the plant. But I take it they didn't install a sump never, on those -- well, I guess maybe in '71? Well, they installed something right outside the department. That was that, a sump. A concrete vat that water ran through, waste water, and any chemical would drop out and into the bottom, and you would go pump it out. That was one of the nice things about Aroclor for waste control, was it not, that it was heavier than water and wasn't terrible soluble. It wasn't soluble, because you distilled it -- 1242 I believe at a hundred and seventy-five degrees centigrade. Everything in that plant was on centigrade basically. Of course, your solid Aroclors went to about three REGIONAL REPORTING SERVICE, INC. HARTOLDMONO015475 64 1 2 Q. 3 4 5 6 7 A. 8 Q. 9 1 0 A. 11 12 Q. 13 14 15 16 17 18 1 9 Q. 20 2 1 A. 22 23 seventy-five, somewhere. So if you didn't need any fancy technology to get the worst of it out of a waste water stream if you just let it sit in a pond like that or a concrete vat. It would settle out? It would settle out. Do you recall when they put that in place? It was in the late '60s. I don't remember. Any other involvement that you can recall with trying to control, assess, monitor the amounts of Aroclor in either the waste water of the plant or the air around the plant? MR. MYERS: Do you want to say a point of time? Any time we you were production foreman for that department. I don't recall any vapor, but like I said, they got samples every day on that stream. REGIONAL REPORTING SERVICE, INC. HARTOLDMONO015476 65 1 Q. 2 3 A. 4 5 6 7 8 Q. 9 A. 10 11 12 13 14 Q. 15 16 17 18 19 A. 20 21 22 23 And at some point in the late '60s they put in the sump. They were getting some down there. They were concerned about it and did everything they could to keep it in the plant. They brought a fellow from St. Louis down. Do you remember who that was? Jim Savage. Of course, he had been supervisor over that department. He came down because he was over it from up there, the same thing in the stuff inside the plant. Okay. And you mentioned the limestone pits before. Did you have any role as a production foreman for the Aroclor department with seeing to it that those were maintained? Well, they got low. We usually just called the shipping department, and I got the limestone people to haul out there. Of course Fred Taffee, which was environmentalist, he'd check it and REGIONAL REPORTING SERVICE, INC. HARTOLDMONO015477 66 1 2 3 4 Q. 5 6 7 8 9 A. 1 0 Q. 11 12 13 A. 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 2 1 Q. 22 23 maybe clean it out if it got too much slack in it or where the acid had ate the limestone up. Yeah. You convert that calcium carbonate into a salt basically, a calcium salt. And that would have to be removed because it wasn't doing any good in there, right? Right. Were you the person who was supposed to make that call or Mr. Taffee the person who was supposed to make that call? Usually it was Fred that did it down to the shipping department, and he - Horace Gray, and he did the purchasing or went through the purchase agent. We did get called to the contractor or people that had the limestone, and they would come out there, and they would fill it up . Did you have any particular role with respect to investigating a lawsuit that was filed against Monsanto in the '60s REGIONAL REPORTING SERVICE, INC. HARTOLDMON0015478 67 1 2 3 4 5 A. 6 Q. 7 A. 8 Q. 9 10 11 12 A . 13 Q. 14 15 16 17 18 A. 1 9 Q. 20 21 22 23 by BASS, where they thought the parathion department had caused a fish kill? Did you ever hear anything about that? I heard a little about it. You weren't involved in it? I wasn't involved in it. Did you ever hear anything about a professor from Mississippi State named Denzel Ferguson who came over and studied the waste waters off the plant? No, sir. Did they ever tell you as the production foreman in the Aroclor department that they found Aroclor downstream and in fish? MR. MYERS: Object to the form. I don't recall if they did or not. When you found out at some point in your tenure there in the '60s that Aroclor was in the waste water, did you give any thought or do you recall any conversations with people there at the REGIONAL REPORTING SERVICE, INC. HARTOLDMONO015479 68 1 2 3 4 A. 5 Q. 6 7 8 9 A. 1 0 Q. 11 12 13 14 1 5 A. 16 17 Q. 18 19 20 21 22 23 plant about Aroclor possibly having gotten off the reservation? MR. MYERS: Object to the form. I don't recall. Does it surprise you as you sit here today to know there is a fish advisory downstream from the plant on Choccolocco Creek because of PCB in fish? I know about it. I understand. Does it surprise you or is that something you would have expected given what you knew about the fact that Aroclor was getting out? MR. MYERS: Object to the form. Well, I won't comment on that, because I don't know enough about it. Well, you know whether you are surprised or not. You either were or weren't. You would know the answer to that. MR. MYERS: Let me object to the form. You are getting argumentative. If you know, Mr. Lackey, tell him. If you REGIONAL REPORTING SERVICE, INC. HARTOLDMONO015480 1 2 A. 3 Q. 4 5 6 7 Q. 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 1 5 A. 1 6 Q. 1 7 A. 1 8 Q. 19 20 21 A. 22 Q . 23 don't, tell him that. Well, I don't know that I was surprised. That's fine. That's a fair answer, that you weren't surprised. MR. MYERS: Object to the form. (A break was taken.) All right. We were talking about the role that you had to play in Aroclor waste control, and I think you told us about the sampling that y'all did daily and then the sump that was put in and the limestone pit. Now, the limestone served principally to neutralize that waste stream, correct? Correct. Didn't really serve as a filter, per se? Well, I couldn't say. And to your knowledge, there was never like an activated carbon filter on that waste water stream? Not as I know of. What role if any did you have with respect to the dump. landfill, there at REGIONAL REPORTING SERVICE, INC. HARTOLDMONO015481 1 2 3 Q. 4 5 A. 6 Q. 7 8 9 10 A. 11 12 Q. 13 14 15 16 17 A. 1 8 Q. 19 20 21 22 A . 23 Q the pi ant ? MR. MYERS: At what point in time? As a production foreman for the Aroclor department. Not any. Did you ever have occasion to go up and look at it? If I wanted to talk to you about what it looked like, would you have any firsthand information? I can't recall whether I would at that time or not. Okay. And you were actually working there at a point in time when they had what is now called the west end landfill, as well, correct? Are you familiar with what that speaks to? Yes. If I wanted to talk to you about what it looked like and what went in there and how it was operated, would you have any firsthand information about that? No , sir. All right, sir. After you ceased to be REGIONAL REPORTING SERVICE, INC. HARTOLDMONO015482 71 1 2 3 4 5 A. 6 7 Q. 8 A. 9 Q. 10 A. 11 Q. 12 13 14 15 16 17 A. 18 19 20 21 22 23 the production foreman for Aroclor and those others departments on rare occasions as you told us, what did you do next for the company? I was moved to shipping, material handling. And the title again was foreman? Yes. And thatwould have been '122 Apri1 of '12. And I guess there is just one other thing I ought to ask you -- Well, I'll come back to that. As the foreman of the shipping department, what sort of responsibility did you have? Well, I coordinated the work of the men there at the warehouse and warehousing of empty containers, warehousing of full containers, seeing that the orders of shipping were sent out to the warehouse and loaded out, labeled. I had the packaging department in part of it. REGIONAL REPORTING SERVICE, INC. HARTOLDMONO015483 72 1 2 Q 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 A. 10 Q 11 12 A . 13 14 15 16 17 Q 18 19 20 21 22 23 filled the drums. Two questions about drums that maybe with your involvement in the shipping department you could help us on better than other folks. First off, I know a. f some points in time the still bottoms from the chlorinator and Aroclors still went in the drums. Yes. You have told us that. And my sense was they tried to use used drums for that? They may have used some, but when I was in Aroclor, I think most of them were new drums, forty-seven gallon, open-top drums that had a lid and a ring that you fastened to hold the material in there. Okay. And another thing that I have noticed in reading some of the documents we've reviewed, there was a discussion about problems with drums of Aroclor - these were the drums actually used for the finished product -- leaking and creating problems. Do you have any j J REGIONAL REPORTING SERVICE, INC. HARTOLDMON0015484 73 1 2 3 4 5 A. 6 Q. 7 A. 8 9 10 11 Q. 12 13 14 15 Q. 16 17 18 A . 1 9 Q. 20 21 2 2 A. 23 personal knowledge of them ever having to go to a heavier gauge drum because of product leaking in transit? MR. MYERS: Object to the form. Not of Aroclor. What kind of products? Well, they had heavier gauge on parathion. What they started out with, I don't know. But they went to sixteen gauge drum for parathion. Seems to me that is what I recall them going to kind of at the end of the Aroclor era, was the sixteen gauge drum. MR. MYERS: Object to the form. You don't have any recollection of them doing that? MR. MYERS: Same objection. No . Did you have any responsibility when you were foreman in the shipping department to deal with Aroclor waste? No. I closed the Aroclor down when I went to shipping. REGIONAL REPORTING SERVICE, INC. HARTOLDMON0015485 74 1 Q. 2 3 4 5 6 A. 7 8 9 Q. 10 11 12 13 A. 14 Q. 15 16 1 7 A. 18 19 20 2 1 Q. 22 2 3 A. Let me deal with that in two senses. First off, yes, it had been closed down, but there was still a lot of Aroclor waste around that plant, wasn't there? MR. MYERS: Object to the form. I don't remember. Because I had already left. And I cleaned up most of it before I left. It is kind of like your last act as a production foreman in the Aroclor department, was shutting that department down ? Yes. Let's talk about that for a moment, if we might. Tell me what that entailed and what you did. Well, that meant wecleaned the floors up, and we cleaned the waste up and emptied the stills out and just closed them down. When you say the waste, where was this waste and what form was it? It may have been on the floor or stuff _____________________________________!__________________;_____________________________________________ REGIONAL REPORTING SERVICE, INC. HARTOLDMONO015486 75 1 2 3 4 5 Q. 6 7 A. 8 9 Q. 10 11 12 13 14 A. 15 Q. 16 17 1 8 A. 19 Q. 20 21 A. 22 Q. 23 you spilled off on the floor. In closing it down, and we cleaned that up, and left it just like you leave your house clean. When you say you cleaned it up, what did you do with it? Put it in drums, probably hauled it to the landfill. I don't know. Again, as with other occasions you have told us about, your job was to get it into a drum, and then somebody else had the responsibility for getting it to the dump ? Or whatever it went to. Did you in any way dismantle the actual fixed equipment of the Aroclor department ? No, sir; no, sir. So basically it was just shutting it down and cleaning it out? Yes, sir. And I take it, unlike for instance, the denora system, if you had shut down the REGIONAL REPORTING SERVICE, INC. HARTOLDMONO015487 76 1 2 3 4 5 6 A. 7 Q. 8 9 A. 1 0 Q. 11 12 A. 13 Q. 14 A. 15 Q. 16 1 7 A. 1 8 Q. 1 9 A. 2 0 Q. 2 1 A. 2 2 Q. 23 chlorine department, you had some mercury that had to be dealt with in some form or fashion. You really wouldn't have had anything like that that had to be put somewhere? You mean the chlorine? Right. But I'm talking about in Aroclor. No . In Aroclor you just would have had steel piping, and steel chlorinator and still? Yes. You left all that Yes. in place? Do you know what ultimately happened with that equipment? Ultimately they tore it down. Yes, sir. And what did they do with it? I don't know. It was hauled off. You just know it left the plant? Yes. Could some of it have gone up on the landfill? REGIONAL REPORTING SERVICE, INC. 1$ HARTOLDMONO015488 77 1 A. 2 Q. 3 4 A. 5 Q. 6 A. 7 Q. 8 A. 9 1 0 Q. 11 v^. 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 2 0 A. 21 22 2 3 Q. I don't know. What about the structure itself, the building that was the Aroclor building? I don't know where that went to. But it's gone now, is it not? Yes. They tore it down. Was it torn down while you were there? Part of it was. Some of it was still standing. Okay. Well, let me get back, then, to your job with the shipping department. As far as you know, y'all weren't taking any daily sample after that of the waste water to look for Aroclors? MR. MYERS: Excuse me. At one point he was in shipping? MR. CUNNINGHAM. Right. After he shut down Aroclor, no more samples were taken. I didn't take any. When I went to shipping, I didn't do anything in the production line. What is the next job you held at REGIONAL REPORTING SERVICE, INC. HARTOLDMONO015489 78 1 2 A. 3 Q 4 A. 5 6 Q7 8 9A 10 Q 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 A 21 Q 22 23 Monsanto ? Shipping was the last one. When did you retire? November 30th, '85, lacking one month making forty-five years. So you actually worked thirteen years as the foreman in material handling and shipping ? Yes. But all of that was in a time frame when y'all were not selling Aroclor -- chlorinated biphenyl? When I went to shipping, that ended the Aroclor. We had some made up, and by a certain date, it was all shipped out. I think that was June of '72. As the person who was in charge of that particular shipping, were you the person who handled returns? Yes, sir. And what would you do with returned Aroc1 or ? I don't think we got it. I think it was REGIONAL REPORTING SERVICE, INC. HARTOLDMONO015490 79 1 2 Q. 3 4 5 6 7 A. 8 Q. 9 10 11 12 13 A. 14 Q. 15 16 17 1 8 A. 19 20 2 1 Q22 2 3 A. returned to St. Louis after that date. Okay. You don't ever recall Anniston being kind of a weigh station where sometimes it came and then on to St. Louis? MR. MYERS: Object to the form. I don't recall it. In the historic past, if somebody had some Aroclor that turned out to be not to spec or needed to be cleaned up, that occasionally came back to the plant, didn't it? Before we shut Aroclor down. Yeah. And you all would either dispose of it or run it through the equipment and try and clean it up and get it back within spec ? Usually, if it was out of spec, you didn't run it back through the equipment. So you just put -- Well, what did you do with it? You tell me. Unless you could chlorinate it up to a REGIONAL REPORTING SERVICE, INC. HARTOLDMONO015491 80 1 2 Q. 3 A. 4 5 Q. 6 7 8 9 1 0 A. 11 12 Q. 13 1 4 A. 15 16 Q. 17 18 19 20 2 1 A. 22 23 higher level. What would you do it with then? Chlorinate it up to a higher level and make a higher grade out of it. I'm saying you said a lot of times you wouldn't do that. I am saying what was the other thing you would do with this returned stuff? MR. MYERS: Object to the form. I don't know of any that we shipped out of sp*e c . But I'm saying, didn't customers occasionally send stuff back to you? If it was good material, we just reshipped it. I understand. But what about if it wasn't good material? If the reason they sent it back to you was because it wasn't good anymore, what did you do with it? I don't recall them sending any bad Aroclor back. But that was all over with when I went to shipping. REGIONAL REPORTING SERVICE, INC. HARTOLDMONO015492 81 1 Q. 2 3 4 5 6 A. 7 Q. 8 9 10 11 12 A. 13 Q. 14 15 A. 16 17 Q. 1 8 A. 1 9 Q. 20 21 22 23 A. So there might have been some stuff coming back and you just wouldn't know about that because that wasn't your task at that point in time? MR. MYERS: Object to the form. Yes. In your role as a production -- Well, let me put it broader. At any time while you were working at Monsanto, would you ever physically come into contact w.i th Aroclor? Yes. Tell me how that would happen and when that happened and where it happened. Well, I ran the department and on strikes, I did operate it. How, how often did y'all have strikes? We had two in the time I was there. And I take it the whole time you were production foreman with Aroclor from 1965 to 1972, you were management as opposed to union? When I went on salary, I did resign from REGIONAL REPORTING SERVICE, INC. HARTOLDMONO015493 82 1 2 Q. 3 A. 4 Q. 5 6 A. 7 Q. 8 9 10 11 A. 12 Q. 13 A . 14 Q. 15 16 A. 1 7 Q. 18 19 2 0 A. 21 2 2 Q. 23 the union. That was - - 1960 . Okay. So do you recall what year those strikes occurred? Had one in '68 and one in '74. Okay. The only time you would have been operating -- manufacturing Aroclor that was chlorinated biphenyl, that would have been that '68 strike? Yes . And how long did that strike run? Two weeks. So in those twoweeks as anoperator you would have been around it? Yes. What other time frames in work would have had you physically in contact with - - Well, on start up down there, in breakdowns, plug-ups, things like that. Okay. Were theresteps taken to avoid or minimize contact between you and the REGIONAL REPORTING SERVICE, INC. I HARTOLDMONO015494 83 1 2 3 4 5 Q. 6 7 8 A. 9 1 0 Q. 11 12 13 14 15 16 A. 17 18 19 20 2 1 Q. 2 2 A. 23 workers and the Aroclor, such as personal protective equipment? MR. MYERS: At what point? MR. CUNNINGHAM: At any point. If it changed over time, we certainly would want to know what changes took place in your tenure. You mean was I isolated from the work force? No, sir. I'm sorry. That was a poorly worded questionv What steps were taken -- Let's take your role as a production foreman. Did you make your workers wear certain protective equipment if they were going to be around Aroclor? If they changed chlorine for us, they were supposed to use a gas mask, and any other that -- fumes, they were supposed to wear respirators or if a gas mask was required? What about - - If you went in a tank car, they had to wear an air mask with an air cylinder. REGIONAL REPORTING SERVICE, INC. HARTOLDMONO015495 84 1 2 3 4 5 Q. 6 1 8 9 10 11 A. 12 Q. 13 14 A. 15 Q. 16 17 18 19 2 0 A. 21 22 23 Q. And you had a watcher on top of the tank to make sure nothing happened to the man that went in the tank car or into the tank. That was procedures. I'm thinking more like only those two weeks when you were working as an operator or during the several years that people under you were working as operators or during these start-ups or breakdowns. Did people wear gloves? Yes. In fact didn't you enforce that as a rule ? We furnished them gloves. And if you came out and found somebody putting their bare hands in the liquid Aroclor, would you say keep up the good work or would you say where in the heck are your gloves? I don't think he is going to put his hands in Aroclors with gloves on or without gloves on. That stuff is hot. So they have gloves that you all furnish REGIONAL REPORTING SERVICE, INC. HARTOLDMONO015496 85 1 2 3 4 5 A. 6 7 Q. 8 9 A. 1 0 Q. 11 A. 12 Q. 13 14 A. 1 5 Q. 16 1 7 A. 1 8 Q. 19 2 0 A. 2 1 Q. 22 A. 23 them, and as foreman are helping to make sure they wear them. And logically they wouldn't not wear them anyway, because the stuff is hot? He'd use gloves if he handled anything or a sample or anything like that. And you had them wearing clothes that you all provided, correct. Correct. And that you alllaundered? We laundered. So they were changing out of them before they even went home? Took a shower. Y'all gave them facilities and time to wash and clean up? Provided them soap. Now, were they doing that on their time or company time? They took theirbath on their time. And I assume you had boots for them? Well, the company required rubber boots. We had rubber boots and overshoes. REGIONAL REPORTING SERVICE, INC. HARTOLDMONO015497 86 1 Q. 2 A. 3 4 Q. 5 6 1 8 9 10 11 A. 12 13 14 15 Q. 16 17 1 8 A. 1 9 Q. 20 21 22 23 Overshoes, goggles or face masks? Face masks, goggles, face shields, ear plugs, ear muffs. And again, you as a foreman, you are going to make sure that if your people are potentially exposed to various kinds of threats to their health in the plant, you are going to make them use this stuff? MR. MYERS: Object to the form. Well, we're going to try .v You have that human element that if you turn your back on them, they'll pull it off. You have to go back and check again. And that is why you couldn't be foreman for a week and take the rest of the year of f, right ? Right. And I take it another precaution that the company put in place and you as a foreman helped enforce is nobody was going to be smoking around this stuff and nobody was going to be eating around REGIONAL REPORTING SERVICE, INC. HARTOLDMONO015498 87 1 2 A. 3 4 5 Q. 6 7 8 9 A. 1 0 Q. 11 12 13 14 1 5 A. 16 17 18 19 2 0 Q. 21 22 23 this stuff. They had lunchrooms, and they had smoking areas, and that was the area that it was permitted for you to smoke. And I take it you also had ventilation in those areas of the building where one might anticipate a buildup of Aroclor f ume ? Had air conditioning. But also not just air conditioning but also ventilation? It wasn'tvjust a matter of cooling the air, you were also bringing fresh air into that room and taking the fume out? Usually, yes. Air conditioning installed rather than a window unit. Of course the window unit pulled out the old air so you can circulate what is in there. But quite aside from some air conditioner, you all had ventilation fans in those parts of the facility where the stills were. When you were REGIONAL REPORTING SERVICE, INC. HARTOLDMONO015499 88 1 2 3 A. 4 Q. 5 6 A. 7 Q. 8 9 10 11 12 13 Q. 14 15 16 17 A. 18 19 20 21 22 2 3 Q. drawing off these bottoms you had a ventilation hood, didn't you? Yes. We had a ventilation hood there. And that is a large contraption that is sucking air up to pull those fumes away? Away from you. Now, what information were you providing to your work force about the toxicity or the chemical dangers of the Aroclors? MR. MYERS: Object to the form. At what point in tim^? MR. CUNNINGHAM: At any time. If that changed over time, I'm very much interested in you telling me how it changed over time. MR. MYERS: Same objection. I can't tell you when it changed, but as things changed, we changed procedures. As technology improved, that gave us information. And we gave them the best that could be got of personal protective safety equipment. I'm talking about aside from the REGIONAL REPORTING SERVICE, INC. HARTOLDMON0015500 89 1 2 3 4 5 A. 6 7 8 Q. 9 10 11 12 13 14 A. 15 Q. 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 equipment and ventilation and the rules that were in place. What did you tell them about the consequences of this stuff, what it could do to you? Probably at that time as I retired and we shut it down, we didn't know anything other than rashes and breakouts. So the concern was rashes. You talked about as things changed. Subsequently did you personally understand something else about the chemical dangers, th|_ toxicity of chlorinated biphenyls? MR. MYERS: Object to the form. Not really. I want to read you a statement here from a document stating follows: Experimental work in animals shows that prolonged exposure to Aroclor vapors evolved at high temperatures or by repeated oral ingestion will lead to systemic toxic effects. Repeated bodily contact with the liquid Aroclors may lead to an acne form of skin eruption. REGIONAL REPORTING SERVICE, INC. 4 } HARTOLDMON0015501 90 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 A. 8 9 Q. 10 11 12 A. 13 Q. 14 15 16 17 18 19 A. 2 0 Q. 21 22 23 A. Now, you told me you knew about the rashes and the skin problems. Did you have any understanding that repeated exposure to Aroclor could lead to systemic toxic effects? MR. MYERS: Object to the form. I don't recall. They continued to update things, and I -- Well, this particular document is dated in 1937. That certainly predated your tenure there, did it not? Yes, before my time. Do you ever recall anybody telling you and you in turn telling the people who were working under you that excessive exposure to Aroclor could lead to liver problems ? MR. MYERS: Object to the form. No . Because you didn't know that. You couldn't have told anybody because you did know that? No, I didn1t. REGIONAL REPORTING SERVICE, INC. HARTOLDMON0015502 91 1 Q. 2 3 4 5 6 A. 7 Q. 8 A. 9 Q. 10 11 12 13 14 15 A. 16 Q. 17 18 19 2 0 A. 21 22 Q. 23 Is this the -- Is today the first day you have ever had anybody suggest to you that PCBs could cause liver problems in people? MR. MYERS: Object to the form. No . You have heard itbefore? Yes. What about -- We have heard recently that there was a fellow out there at the plant who committed suicide who had had liver problems, a very painful liver disease. Does that ring any bells? Any idea who that might be? No, sir. Okay. When did you first hear or did you ever hear that PCBs might cause people to get cancer? MR. MYERS: Object to the form. It has probably been since we closed it down . Did you ever fish in Choccolocco Creek or Snow Creek? REGIONAL REPORTING SERVICE, INC. HARTOLDMONO015503 92 1 A. 2 Q. 3 4 A. 5 Q. 6 7 A. 8 Q. 9 10 A. 11 Q 12 A . 13 Q 14 A . 15 Q 16 17 18 19 20 2 1 A. 22 Q. 23 No, sir, not in the last sixty years. When you were a young boy you would fish? I fished. I guess Choccolocco Creekisn't too far from Munford? Three miles. And the closeststream thatis going to have any fish worth catching anyway? And I 1ived on Choccolocco for a whi1e. Do you just not fish at all these day s ? No , sir. Do your children or grandchildren fish? No , sir. Were you ever involved or asked about your health by anybody from Monsanto who was trying to conduct an investigation as to the health of folks at the Anniston plant who had worked around Aroc1 ors ? No, I guess not. Were you ever told about the results of a study of workers from the Krummrich REGIONAL REPORTING SERVICE, INC. HARTOLDMONO015504 1 2 A. 3 4 Q. 5 6 A. 7 Q. 8 A. 9 Q. 10 11 A. 1 2 Q. 1 3 A. 14 Q . 1 5 A. 1 6 Q. 17 A . 1 8 Q. 19 20 A. 2 1 Q. 22 23 A . plant who worked with Aroclors? No . MR. MYERS: Object to the form. When I say the Krummrich plant, do you know what I'm talking about? Sure. Have you ever been up and visited? No. I visited the Queeny plant. Okay. Did you ever have your blood tested for PCBs? No . Was it ever offered to you? Probably indirectly. How so? You just had to askabout it. So you haven't asked to have it checked? No . Have you ever talked to a doctor about the fact you workedaround Aroclor? No . Did they provide medical care as part of your employment at Monsanto? Yes. REGIONAL REPORTING SERVICE, INC. HARTOLDMONO015505 94 1 Q. 2 3 A. 4 Q. 5 A. 6 Q. 7 A. 8 Q. 9 A. 10 11 Q. 12 A. 1 3 Q. 14 15 16 A. 17 18 Q. 19 20 21 22 23 A. And as part of the medical plan did you get a routine examination or physical? Yes. And how often did that occur? About every year. And do you recall where that took place? At the plant. And who did it? The nurse and the company doctor, except the x-ray. Where did you go for the x-ray? Up at one of the clinics here. Okay. And what was your understanding of why you were getting this annual checkup? You did that from the beginning on until I retired. Did you ever have occasion at one of these checkups for them to say, oh, we found the following, thought you might want to know about it, or was it always uneventful. Well, they would tell you about certain REGIONAL REPORTING SERVICE, INC. HARTOLDMONOOI5506 95 1 2 3 Q. 4 5 6 A. 7 Q. 8 9 A. 1 0 Q. 11 12 A. 13 14 1 5 Q. 16 17 A. 18 19 2 0 Q. 21 22 A. 2 3 Q. things, blood pressure is up or need to go get your eyes checked. What is the worst thing you remember them finding out at one of these checkups? I don't recall anything. And did you have to pay anything for t ha t ? No . Was that optional? Could you just choose not to go? I'm not sure of that. Everybody went, and I'm sure that was a case of emp1oyment. Did you mind going? Were you happy to have that? . It wouldn't bother me. You got a checkup once a year to find out what is going on. Did it cause you any kind of concern to do that? No . How many incinerators at that facility REGIONAL REPORTING SERVICE, INC. HARTOLDMONO015507 1 2 3 A. 4 Q. 5 A. 6 7 8 Q. 9 A. 1 0 Q. 11 12 13 A. 14 15 Q. 1 6 A. 17 Q. 18 19 20 A. 21 Q 22 A. 23 Q- did you know about over any period of time that you were there? I don't know. Are you of aware of any incinerators? They had a thing called the tepee that they burned. And I think they had something before that. I don't know. The tepee was up on the landfill? Yes. And it was basically sheet steel in the shape of a tepee with a screen at the top? They had an incinerator over at the Niran department. That had the small, skinny metal stack? Yeah. Well, a Fiberglas stack. Did they have it jacketed with something, because it looks awfully shiny in the pictures I've seen. No, it wasn 11 t j acket ed. Just a Fiberglas stack? Yes. Do you have any idea what they were REGIONAL REPORTING SERVICE, INC. HARTOLDMONO015508 97 1 2 A. 3 4 Q. 5 6 7 A. 8 Q. 9 1 0 A. 11 Q. 12 1 3 A. 1 4 Q. 15 16 17 18 1 9 A. 2 0 Q. 21 22 A. 2 3 Q. burning in either of those incinerators? Burning the waste off Niran, probably the still bottoms. And do you know if they ever tried to burn still bottoms from the Aroclor department ? No . No, they didn't try, or no, you don't kno w ? I don't know. And I take it -- Well, do you know what they burned in tepee? Just wood and paper. One of the workers last week was talking about them burning still bot toms in the boilers, using it as a boiler fuel. Do you know anything about that? MR. MYERS: Object to the form. Well, that is since I left. Do you have any friends who still work at the facility? I guess they are my friends. Let me qualify it in a sense. Anybody REGIONAL REPORTING SERVICE, INC. HARTOLDMONO015509 98 1 2 3 4 5 6 A. 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 Q. 15 A. 16 Q. 17 18 19 20 2 1 A. 2 2 Q. 23 A. out there that you still know on a first-name basis that if you saw them walking down the street today when we left the building you would say hi, Jim or hi, Joe? Really I don't know which ones. I know some of them are retired, so I couldn't call any names. But if any of the old ones that came there in the '60s, maybe some of them were hired in the '70s, Wayne Carden, Anthony Pettus. I think Joe Webb is still there, Dan Truitt - Dan Hewlett, not Truitt. Do you ever read the Birmingham News? No . Have you heard about reports of PCB being found in a lot of folks' yards out there around the plant in the last few years ? MR. MYERS: Object to the form. It has been in the paper. What paper do you take? The Daily Home from Talladega and The REGIONAL REPORTING SERVICE, INC. i I j is HARTOLDMONO015510 99 1 2 Q. 3 4 5 6 7 8 A. 9 Q. 10 11 A. 12 Q. 13 14 1 5 A. 1 6 Q. 1 7 A. 1 8 Q. 19 20 21 22 23 Anniston Star. Okay. Have you heard anything in the media that you take, be it TV or paper or just talking to folks that you know from up here, about it being found in people in west Anniston? MR. MYERS: Object to the form. I heard that, but I don't know. Well, you heard about the fish advisory down on Choccolocco Creek? Yes. Have you heard about the EPA Superfund branch coming to town and setting up an office? Yes. How did you hearabout that? Paper. We talkedearlierabout when the PCBs were found in the fish and the fish advisory, that that didn't surprise you. When you read in the paper that there were reports -- whether they are true or not we can argue about later. I don't REGIONAL REPORTING SERVICE, INC. HARTOLDMON0015511 10 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 A. 8 Q. 9 10 11 12 13 A. 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 need to get into that with you. But when you read about those reports of it being found in peoples' yards and in peoples' bodies, did that surprise you or not surprise you? MR. MYERS: Object to the form. Yes, that surprised me. Did you have any thoughts at that point in time to perhaps having your own blood tested being as it seemed to be in some people allegedly who didn't even work at the pi ant ? Well, there is nothing bothering me and no way to get it out. So why worry about it? MR. CUNNINGHAM: That's all I have . (The deposition concluded at 3:15 p.m.) REGIONAL REPORTING SERVICE, INC. HARTOLDMON0015512 10 1 1 I do hereby certify that the witness 2 whose attached deposition was taken before me 3 was by me first duly cautioned and sworn to 4 tell nothing but the truth in the cause 5 aforesaid; that the testimony contained herein 6 was by me reduced to writing in the presence 7 of said witnesses by means of stenography and 8 afterwards transcribed by means of computer 9 aided transcription. The foregoing is a true 1 0 and accurate transcript of the whole of the 11 testimony given by said witness, as aforesaid. 12 I do further certify that I am not 13 connected by blood or marriage with any of the 14 parties or their attorneys or agents and that 15 I am not an employee of any of them, nor 1 6 interested in the matter of controversy. 1 7 IN WITNESS WHEREOF, I have hereunto set 1 8 my hand and affixed my notarial seal at 1 9 Gadsden, Alabama, County of Etowah, this 11th 2 0 day of January 2002. 21 Deborah Salers Garrett 2 2 Certified Shorthand Reporter Registered Professional Reporter 2 3 Notary Public, A1abama-at - Large My Commission expires: 3-6-05 REGIONAL REPORTING SERVICE, INC. HARTOLDMON0015513