Document b5oz4OpeNN1vnML84pbXw90Qo

1 -IK THE ,CIRCUIT COURT TOENTIETH'JUDICIAL CIRCUIT OP ILLINOIS 2 .. * ST CLAIR ,,COUNTY . 3 FRANCES E. KENNER/ et a l , ---- 4 Plaintiffs, 5' v . 6 MONSANTO COMPANY, ,... . .. CAUSE NO. 80-L-970 ,v > ' ^ ; \ 7 [ :Defendants ;v l\ J ' ' 1 'vV .'*j>* ">" V' ''/ 8 : w;;. . :\ 9 -v; , 1.;. REPORT OE PROCEEDINGS ,, 10 Before the HONORABLE RICHARD P. GOLDENHERSH vo , ,-v-r ^ 11 - April 9, ,,1985 12 13 APPEARANCES 5 . 14 MR; REX CARR, Attorney at Law, and MR. EROME SEXGFREID, Attorney at Law, 15 On Behalf of the Plaintiffs;. 16 MR., KENNETH HEINEMAN, Attorney at Law, MR. JOHN MUSGRAVE, Attorney at Law, and 17 MR; JOSEPH NASSIF, Attorney at Law, On Behalf of the Defendants is; BAYONNE, N,J, 19 20 21 . __ 22 PATRICIA A. GANDY, C.S.R. 24 Official ..Court Reporter 1 INDEX JQF WITNESSES 2 PLAINTIFFS* WITNESSES ...... 3 DR. GEORGE EDWARD PAGET 4 Further Clarification Examination 5 Further Cross Examination....... 6 Further Clarification Examination j 7 DR.. ROBERT -C. -KALEY. 8 Cross Examination (2-1102) ' i ' 9 Clarification Examination. 10 DR. JAMES MIEDRE ,-, , , 11 Cross Examination (2-1102) 12 13 14 15 16 17 In-Chambers Conference 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 Page No ..2 ..9 114 127 140 150 78 1 2 Humber EXHIBITS . v . . Masked w Offered 3 Plaintiffs* 1157A , 14 14 4 Plaintiffs* 1157B S Plaintiffs* 1157C . 14 > . .., . 1 4 14 14 6 Plaintiffs' 1274 . 51 51 7 Plaintiffs*.1275 , l 76 8 Plaintiffs * 1276 ' '\ - 131 9 Plaintiffs * 1277 ; V Km 10 Plaintiffs' 1277A - ^ ly:T. .i34 * * ..,. 138 - II Plaintiffs' 1278 ' 12 Plaintiffs1 1278A , : 135 - - - ,. 135 13 Plaintiffs' 1279 , ,-,. - 150 14 Plaintiffs' 1279A . . . * 151 15 Plaintiffs' 1280 *.. - 154 16 Plaintiffs' 1281 . 155 17 Plaintiffs' 1282 : . ,, 157 18 Plaintiffs' 1282A 19 Plaintiffs' 1283 20 159 , ... ..... 169 76 133 138 139 136 136 151 151 , 154 155 158 159 21 22 23 24 Admitted . 14 14 14 51 77 133 138 139 137 137 152 152 155 156 158 159 , 1 BE;IT HEMEMBERED-AND CERTIFIEDf thatheretofore, on to-wit's April 9, 1985 the ^matter as .hereinbefore set forth came on.for hearing'before .the Honorable Richard P, Goldenhersh Circuit Judge in:and for-the Twentieth Judicial Circuit, State of Illinois, and the following was had of record, to-wits \ THE COURT: ' Good morning* Mr* Heineman? ;:;V : ; X - V.I f u r t h e r pi*a r 1 r i c a t x 6n e x a m i n a t i o n -- /-' \ V * " vBY MR. HEINEMAM \ r 'V"'* " ^ Q r Dr* Paget,, yesterday.we were talking about the fact that in Department 236atthe-KruimnrichPlant in which the l pentachlorophenol was manufactured that, there were* some people that contracted chloracne-and there were, some that did not; do you recall that, sir?- . 'V ' 'A /Yes, sir,..I do/ A. '' . .*V : V /- Q \ Now, to what doyou^at tribute that phenomenon? 'A-' - Well, there are several-- r-two major possible explanations One, that,the exposure ,of the various people differed, and *even though although they were working in the same plant,; they may quite reasonably have been exposed to different levels of a chloracnogen by being a little further.* away ,from somewhere/where *it,was coming from or being a little ' ' 4 U H .^ |/ ./!t\{ f z |H : - ; , : . ; more scrupulous/ out1the/useof 'protective equipment or washing,or,things 1 ike/that>.1 .And/the other possibility, of 'V- 1 .,' it./-VT.V*,/>^/ Vfj'*'*'''`-i*s/? '***'$- *'--*V if-- s'* -`-r.' , ...; ./ .' course, is that they may have varied in their sensitivity; \* FORM IL' IA B F E N G AD C O . . BAYONNE * N . J . `0 7 0 M \ *> All animals, including human beings#/vary intheir sensitivity to toxins, or to-- rindeed totherapeutic drugsr-- and so they may have varied in their sensitivity, they might have been less sensitive if they didn't get.chloracne,. Q So that what Lmay have. been .a toxic dose for one person or several may not have been a toxic dose for some of , tfe'others, assuming that they were exposed in. the same way?. .. A Xhat^s a possibility,`yea;, certainly,.sir. ^ \L ; Q _ Now, if I asked you -to assume, sir , that a Monsanto, employee named Joseph Starczyk .worked in Department ;236.had. (; ,severe chloracne, moved to -Department 237 where;, the ortho- . chlorophenol, the dichlorophenol, .and the parachlgrophehol -^ -- P -L L J^ 1 _ 1- 'i. / ^ ^t , k1 - .r 1 <' - ' r were manufactured, andhis chloracne went away, what could you conclude'from that fact? . ,, 1' " .r f \, a ' '- * Y. " ^ ** , h *J ` F C7 K - , L` b ^ ` ' k H .* ' n *"* l A v .Well, you'would have to conclude that he was. then . exposed to a level of a chloracnogen that was belowhis-- -the level which Was toxic.for :him, yes - ' , t ,-;v Q Is it possible that there; would not have been an : exposure to a chloracnogen? .1 / **: u ; - A . That *s .entirely/ possible t_ jf ^ ^ , - Q; I;In, that "Department 237? .....' - .. - - ; $rair& >.V \ & ^ # > 5 2 `W ' A Entirely possible, yes. I x : :v . " ... itr*.itv-.V, u-* **.*&', t> fr'v *> - . .. Q / v^WitA.rrespect to,;the/,other symptoms which Dr, Neal Spokea to you about, would you expect any other^ symptoms, if p , s - * ^'A`*, / , * L- ; ;y ; 'I any there be, to appear absent the presence of chloracne? i" , * r '^ / 1 , -. ^ V i! ' 'i . ^ 'V'1- fL " - '-"-r ^ ` " ., ,1 ' A ' No, sir. Thesituation was.clearly,that if there, were, no chloracne, no other symptoms were to be expected. ; .Q Now,, with respect to conversations with Dr; Neal, do you recall haying conversations with Dr., Neal at any time in the ..Spring of 1979 concerning ,the Wright State-*,-- the claimed .Wright State results? ,,v. , . / V; ,. A : Yesi sir, I spoke with Dr. ;Neal on several occasions ,.as I think I 've alreadysaid about this problem. And this was the. first person I consulted about the Wright State results. J ; Q And;is I understand J.t,you don't recall discussing ;the subject at the April- 27th Biohazards Committee meeting? , ,/A Not specifically, no,, sir.' > > .. - . _ Q /,.;' Do you recall-at some point discussing the subject with Dr.?Neal?/ ^- " . A-./Yes,v sir.' V:.-' . '/ _^ ;/ '' ^ '/' Q A n d w h a t w a s Dr. Neal's impression, if he had one,: *J t ^ ~1 - '- i > n 'l ^ - 1* t r' * . relating to the Wright State .results? ! . *- ; A . Well ,; of course/ this was. an area in which he was keenly interested as ,a biochemist .studying dioxins/ and he . *^ r' '\<-x />*,*> rv? ' i ' -- /, didn'tibelieyexthat theseresults could be valid,.because he .1 > </ 'V*,' 'i ; " * ' . v'Si j ". .. . st * . , didn't think that the technology,,peraitted the identification - : " . / \ ; Kff'.A/ Q/ |v?U C, Of TCDD> ;let' aione'X, 3v7V8 ,TCDD -at that leveV in blood samples. .?-4 4 \ t. 1 .v ;; * r^ \ 71 f-yj, 1 ., Q ' '-V; */ v L- C ' . N 1 rt All right, sir/. Now, I would like to ask you to look at Exhibit/; Plaintiffsi: Exhibit 1262,-which I think may still be here./Here we go. Plaintiffsi .Exhibit 1262/ sir, and. I would direct your attention .to a 'paragraph at the bottom of the first page of that Exhibit .which Mr. Carr asked you about 'yesterday. And that paragraph states as follows, does: it not, sir,: "in the absence of precise knowledge of huisan susceptibility# and in view of the extreme sensitivity of some species, it is obvious that' very small amounts ,of TCDD in the human environ ment in certain circumstances of intimate .exposure or of abuse or misuse or casual worker procedures may," the word may is, underlined, is^it not, si*?., ,. ^ ' A ' Yes,' sir.'/ i ~ // .i-- . " .Q A n d ,in parenthesis it.says # ."we repeat may,", and it is underlined again? / A' * . ; A j -Vos, sir.'1 ^V'i *.tj, i,* .y1 ' Q- "have significance, " i s t h a t right? Now, when you 1 are talking; about -small. amounts <of-TCDD in the human environ ment, which may have significance,; what :kind of concentration are you /talking about there? -./ ; ! .... .1*-i + Ir' JI>^.-: -ftf?If '.1 <v/ ,_' '';'*?*r'.* - *. - _1 Al >;Wellr it,wholly depends,^sir, on the circumstances In which they" are/present1; -And iindeed, the concentration of the material to which human;beings are exposed and from which one must ;7assume -the abso \ 'f r f ' p r *'-* - i' - ", i , 'v, `oh of a idose, so really it can range 1 from parts per- billion maybe -if' it "were something which .they 2.. were consuming on a regular basis, so you are getting doses of 3 the order of microgramsper -kilogramover a period r or it may 4. be very much larger doses i f i t was something which human being^j .5 were not directly exposed ;or .by .derivative or composition of. 6 Q Now'/ is this essentially ,what is, expressed in this 7 '* /paragraph? Is this the worst cas analysis .that you are talk 8 ` ing about? ;,y \ ^ -Xy.; y^ ^ _ : 9 A * Yes, sir, really it is what it is saying that when we 10 don*t.know,precisely how.human,beings may react to TCDD or - 11 indeed to any other toxin, the only prudent assumption is that 12- they react as the most.sensitive species. Saying, really, when 13 one has no prcise knowledge of human beings' exposure, sorry, 14 of human susceptibility,/when you come to evaluate possible . 1 -, ' * -t , ;j ' , - . >-y - . -- 'f- - -- 1 - " -- ., -, . . J - ,. - 15 'exposures, you have to evaluate -them .on the basis of the most 16 sensitive species. And,;'wll, ;som .species are very sensitive. 17 !That involves making sgm assumption about very low levels of 18 mterial to which very sensitive-species may -be exposed.- v.: ^ ' - - '". - 19. Q Now, is that what you were talkingabout, sir, when A - ' -A 'T i - f 'W . ,,* r 20 . you were discussing; with'Mr Carr.the subject of the difference - , -V^ , ' t } v t f . c i --*- *-,V' ' r r ' . - f ' '; \ ;, , ; v' 21 22 ' between a olear, demonstrated .hallmark such as chloracn, and - ' *.*-*'. L in ,, * %' ' \ "" A " ***1 *, ' \ \ * '* ' - . "'- |V . U 5, > ' - - : - other effQcts which raightf:-ohe/^none, all of the .other effects, :0 23 which might.,possibly be present -because they had been reported -r rUVJ \Vi>{l - - s.;-rV 24 ' at one timer or another but .not clearly demonstrated? PENGAD CO, > ' L ' 1 ,s r J w< t 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 '# U) 11 12 13 14. 15 16 BAYONNE, N.J. - 0 7 0 0 2 17, 18 19 20 21 22 . 23 24 * A That*s exactly-the distinction I was making, sir# yesi ^ .*,,/- Q . Now, tell me how that factor would affect the judgment that you would be making, .let's say in terms of talking to Harry Gilmer of ,.the EPA? A . Weil, sir, it means two things, really.* In the worst case analysis, one should assume that the material which is present, the worst thing*that it might be. Even though one is not sure that all the TCDD',s that were reported were 2,3,7,8 , and indeed it seemed unlikely that they were all that, but nevertheless one should assume that they were all 2,3,7,8 because that was the worst .thing it could be. And secondly, - when you made the evaluation of.the hazard presented by some level of TCDD, one should hot only be.guided by the things that have, been reported, by .various people reporting on TCDD exposure, which may or may .not.be/accurate, in many cases probably not accurate, one^should assume that human beings are not only susceptible as those reports, but even more you should assume that they are .susceptible as the most susceptible . ' r.^ rt, - \ i *. anima-.species,;i,in.that'case,,.-the;iguinea pig. In that case, not is it safe in .terms of.those miscellaneous reports, but ` *;*i ?:V/V: '' 'v.'i :l''[^ t would it bevsafe for guinea pigs? -!, Q . Now,, on the.occasions^when you have had to make a- "- v ' K v ' .. . _ - determination of that kind, when you have been, making a 8 1 judgment about a possiblQ liuman hazard, have you applied this 2 philosophy? v ./ , 3 '* / A Yes, sir, indeed. , ' ^ y 4 - Q And in doing so; have you madecalculations, kinds of ', 'r ;n .. . 5 calculations that you have .testified about here over the. last 6 several days? \<V V, _ T .,"A ,l 'Yes,\.sir/ .< ; .. 1 1 8 Q And when you make those calculations,-what have you 9 found in1making up your mind as to whether or not there would 1 0. be a possible human' hazard? .' 1' 11 :;A Well, if you make those assumptions, it depends bn 12 the precise;calculation What the .safety factor is, but we 13 found that in any of the calculations we made, the human - 14 y. hazard,, even if human beings were .as sensitive as 'guinea pigs, 15 had a safety factor ofhundreds, .thousands, hundred thousands, 16 and sometijnes millions between,the dose Which you could assume 17 that a human, being mights get ..and -the worst circumstances and j8 what might cause hazard to human vbeings if they were as . 19 ; 20 21 22 , 23 sensitive ^as.,guinea' pigsy.; VX f ^ ;" > x x ; x ; y ;;if .?* yy * " >' 1 j j1 ^ *1 ^^ \1 ^ |\ * V , - -- * 1 ` Q *-1 "And 'is*it those calculations and those'judgments that v", , ' l-* " .y 'j* / \',jftFv *'x Vi -, >-k- t - ,. you make; that' give rise to.decisions as to whether ,or not ' - *\ ,*1, - J v V /l -P V tx. ^. . , L1 certain warning should be;given or whether or not certain 1*. L - ! . I - information1 n should'be made `i X- ' available? -'\ h. J < 7^ f * .` 24 A Absolutely, sir, yea.; ;; PEKG4D CO,, ' BAYONNE, N.J, \f 4- , \ 4 - > 11 * V , jj- kT Vr- 1 MR.- HEINEMAN:. That Iq all' the-questions I have, Judge 2 THE COURT: Okay.. Mr. Carr, do you have any further 3 questions? * 4 ' MR; CARR: >Yes,. your. Honor* . 5 FURTHER CROSS EXAMINATION ; 6 ' BY MR. CARR 7 0 With regard to Dr. Taylor, .if I understood you . .8 yesterday, you .suggested, that Drs. .Taylor and Tiernan had no 9 articles published and referred to in this document 1273? 10 A No; I don't think I^said .that. I think- 1 said" that 11 the reference that is given -at the -.point where the blood level 12 of TCDD is referred to, is ..the-reference to the letter to the 13 American Public Health Association. 14 Q . And do you recall Mr. Heineman took.you.to an ; 15 appendix and asked you whether or not any articles appeared in 16 that appendix authored by Taylor or Tiernan, do'you recall that 17 sir? 18 >A'" 1-i No,, sir,, I don't;recall -<#v/ that precisely. 19 Q ; } You don't recall-going to the appendix, what is it, 20 Jerry, B? r:-Appendix B, yes;. V The literature reviewed and asked t I t' ^-';v v T -- ; * 21 about-whether .ior`not Taylor .and Tiernan had any citations in 22 that, any1references,1 \do* you '/recall"that, sir? 23 /A Yes, sir. ; ` ' V; 24 ' Q .. Now, point of fact, r-you'dp know, or I ,assume you w\ 1 10 1 V that Taylor has probably, oh ten or eleven articles in <2 here, and Tierhan has n i neor ten,you know that, don't you? 3 j" A 1 Yes. .. v 1 `*`` -*; 1, -4 ' . And you didnt,mention that .yesterday,, did you, sir? ' 5 f. , MR.1*HEINEMAN:.We were talking about blood* 6 ^ J- A W e 'were, talking about blood, T > . * - ' . ' " . j '- f ' - - , Q And were we not also-talking about'' levels of tetra- .8 chlorodibenso-p-dioxin in environmental' and biological samples? 9 ...A 7 Wo, sir,' - ` ' 10 r . Q We werenjt? Arid that's not what Dr. Taylor has v- ii; v>- 12 written on---as a matter o f act,,if you look .at Page 297, you see. that Dr.- Taylor wrote ten articles referred to on that , : 13 ` 14 15 page/ referring to methods-;of detecting dioxin in various - 4 . ' ,r ' ` . . "" * ' , ' J^ , p " .^ V' " t A 'S ,,- substances including Agent .Orange and environmental and 4 biological samples-- - v'-, ,..-r' r, ; 16 .-MR. HEINEMANa You ire referring to another section, 17, ... ; . MR; CARR: Y 0 s , a section you didn't refer to; : 18 . ,xn i did. ` ' ' b x :Mr . caRR>;" * ' 19 . _ ; .' " V - ***' ^;*i, ^ - '- 20 .Q-;iw:? t-will'Vyou* ^lookj and see'if'-,t-h.ere a^renvot.-..ten artic^les 21 by Dr. Taylor, dealing with detecting various substances.in the i: Y r.'isiV' ., J *' ' . ^ -v :'C`V1' . i .'*\ ' f'-r< 22 environment? v x .... . ; " ' 23, A *' Yes,: sir. ' > * `' r-'' '7>' :V :--. ' V-iL- 24 Q TCDD in the environment? v-. - ` PENGAO CO.. 'B AYONNE. . N.J, i pV 4` - ^, v u ^ "* - t a - y^, ^ ' ; ^W - v* _ > . * ` r^ , ` Ti.` , 1^ ^r 11 / 1 t : \ "I ! **%. ' ^ * **- - i' 11 1 A\'.\ I havn't read through themlallv but yes,' sir, . 1 can ' ' *fc ^ 'i 'r ' * . b - ~i -L ' * . ( 2 see one or two which refer ^to.the detection of dioxins I don't 3r know---well> "there is o n e . h e r e t h e detection of tetrachloro- 4 dibenzo-par-dioxin inherbicides, I don't see one referring to 5- the detection of tetrachlorodibenzo-dioxin in blood, sir. ,6l Q, ' Weil, Doctor, you know it is not captioned as such, 7 but would you hot read and:see;if he is not having articles 8. that he's written on, environmental' samples and tissues? Go on 9 down; the list, and refresh.your recollection on that point. , 1 0 . A Well, .sir, I don't see one which refers to the M detection of tetrachlorodibenzo-dioxin in tissues either. 12 _ Q ; Well, sir, do you see where it talks about-detection 13 in environmental and biological samples, do you see that.as.far 14 back as 1976? ' . ~ v. 1.5 A', Yes, sir^ * y ;` * " 16 Q And are biological samples, does that include 17-' tissues? -"3-j1*- . .18 ,i;_A;IXXtvihcludes a^wide"variety of things. / -, . -19 r 20 . Q--1V" fM.:1y quQst,id' 7h't\is does j. 7.- include v- -' tissues? ft-* * -/ ^ > * , * - - J' - ..MR.. HEINEMANt Objaction... How can he conclude-that 21 without seeirig the article?" :How does he know what the guy's 22 writing about?1' ' _ V .!>>;**.. / ' -> - ; 'v ^ 23 THE COURT: -Overruled. ; 1 ., ' -^ r1 * ^ ^ ^ ` s i' . J . kPj ^ * *- > ^ w 24 -, Q Does the word biological .samples include, tissues and PNGAO CO, *i . v . . - i 12 I bioa?> , - _:v;. < " ;V ; ` V V , t >._ A /- It.might but does not necessarily* 2, . 3 Q' X didn't say it. necessarily did, does biological 4 samples include tissues and blood?,. .... 5 A- 'Oh, of course it could*V3_ T ' . % J I * * 0 A.- J / rj _ . . , I* ' * *Ji p ^ 1, * f. ' r A > t. l, t ' r * 'A 6 Q Now, you didn't mean* t suggest, you and Mr. Heineman 7 didn't mean to suggest to .this jury that Dr* Taylor'was some ,8 how or. another out of his afield "when..he wrote the letter refer 9' 10 J, ring to detection of th: TCDD in a-particular biological sample 1_ - kr ' *K e ', "^ ' .1 ^ 7 4 ^i / c " .-'-A . ,( >_ that is, blood> you didn.Vt .mean t o suggest that/.did you, sir? 11 . JA . Sir, he said that the technologies didn't exist* 12 Q r My question was, did..you mean .to imply that, or; 13 infer that to the jury that.Dr* Taylor didn't know what he was 14 talkihg/about? . / - _ **/*' . ' ' ` ^ ' 1 ' `m\i ^"' Zr -' _s j 15 A . '*No, .sir* ./ ' w -. ' ", , J "l` 1 L ' / 16 ^ Q. As a-matter ,of>fact/,you .know, if you turn to the . f' >" '-i' \ i' ~O . v1i 1r `. ' -r ; -,V ` L .. ^ 17 next pag:Jtyou will/se vnumber^Of articles written by Dr. 18 . Tiernanf cited in the /EPj Handbook, .will you not, sir? K r^`7 '* `i \1 j ,i \ . -, 19 A' Yes, sir,' I don't .see any ..that refer.,to the'detec 20 tion in blood/ *I / ;.ij :vH -m A , 1. f' ) v n * o , 21 Q .Doctor, could you. just please answer my question?,, 22 . There a r e a number of articles on -the next page referring to 23 the detection Of various;TCDD'.s i n various substances, are 24 , there not, sir? i*/ / * , * > * * / p E N G A D CO,.i B AYONNE. N.J. 07001 / O R * IL' A4 B * -V / ' v- . * ` ./ -t - V - T", ' '`O ^ `7 - 7 L V "- / - I- : -A" -LYeS,,;sir* ./*- l ... L/. `^ -' ' \V/s '", 7 -1 , '7 2 ' ... :Q . As a.matter of, fact^ there is one where hie talks `3 . v about detecting it in beef "samples?" .4 * ' A o ,Yes, sir# I saw-that,.1: * * * '5 ' L' o Q, And beef saiuple is a.living tissue, isn*t it, sir? -6 ` , A . ..Not usually,'no. Well, It has been" alive, but. it is hot usually at the tiineyou.do it. Well, there is a difference - -8 9' sir, because you can take-a .kilogram of beef, you can't very well take a kilogram of blood- .10 Doctor, the beef sample is,a living, biological 1 1 - sample?- r/,,. _ ' ^V `' 12. It is ;a biological.'sample,;yes, sir`; : _* , \ ^ 13..7 L Q' '-Anil,. Doctor, ;h e 'has jgiven seminars, heVs given.' - - 14. lectures.at.various seminars as well, has he not?' ; 15' ' 7 . A', .` Yes, sir; " '"k `y-. ' V `' ` ' '-; .. 1 ,r ,7.0' ' ,7 16 ;Q.!] `""Kowr.Dr .* Paget/is there .any question in your".mind . . i..5 Ty t> -V. ^ `'S'l ' ' 17 , but what Drs- Taylor and Tieraan are the preeminent specialists 7 *-. (^ >;1 "t-> -l1*-'?/"'>\"viOO*' 1*77 >>.- '1 ' "` "18 in detecting-, TCDDoin biological ,samples? i Jr>- 19 ` A They are among, them^yes* sir . 20 , Q My question was, not that,; is your ansv/er yes, they 21 ,are the preeminent ^authorities, specialists in the field? '22 . A I;don't think `they are,the preeminent ones, no, sir. 23 '' 24 i Q Do you know any above them, sir? A ; "No>..sir* ' ^ .- `^' 5.*, vf *> 7^ ^p....,. 1 1^ ,* ** y' '**, h J >1 i 1^7 7 ',;*: . /. ^ r , ,n r*t' ^, > rl ^ 1 ' *, t 1 .ij PENG AO CO. . BAYONNE, IjLJi! 0 7 0 0 2 -*'.* 1 " \'V J *- ' '1 , ^'S. , Ht ^ ' L ,,+ 1 r*.X^ -l J '` p -'-j ^ .j' t - v 1 * ffi'I ' jt,. ,' * X i. 'J< 1 . / Q, Thank you. -V ..-V-yy n , s^. ` * 2' '1 r v *c V y(Plaintiffs^ Exhibits;115.7A # B a n d C wre ` - * r\ 3. t ->. * ,marked for identification.) 4 ` .MR.,HEINEMANr, Your onor# my .recollection is the 5 jury has copies of that# is that correct? , ' >1 6 . -MR. CARR: That is correct. ; J 7! r.' - THE COURT: Which .number?. / S3 L 8 m r . h e i n e m a n V^ li57.y ; ? `- ^ ; THE .COURT: okay. X think that's right. 'J ' io ; MR. CARR: That is correct# it has been admitted into . At,* - ' * , i. k. r i V ''1 w t n; vidence# your. Honor. ,tw*' 12 .BY MB. CARR:;1- : -1 ; '.*as v 's*'^X"^-^rp 4^ <,r-J y / - > ^ ` ,r 13 ;'Q . Doctor# I'll ask you to glance at these Exhibits# 14 . 1157A, B a n d C. Do you recognize those as/the three pages that 15 make up 1157, /doyou not# sir? /// .a 16 V V / -it; * *i " ' x ,- 4 . i n'c'i*JU * ^ 1 /- ' * -, w * Jj_ 'Jvl 17- t lMRv, CARR:- i<offersthese /Exhibits # 1157A# B and C# .V ': V riiV-.r-:* `''-.ti'dA1 18 * your Honor.., ; *v*. p e n g a d c o .: ' b a y o n n e , n .j 1? tiv-'4'V \ (Plaintiffs ! Exhibits 1157A# B and C were 20 * ' -, " offered into evidence) .y ; . .L *' O ' ''' 1 . ^i - 21' . :- ' ,F1 y - THE COURT: , I will incorporate the sanie arguments 2 2 and objections. -, X ; J< -- - * ; 23 , .. MR. HEXNEMAN; Fine#,. Judge. <. L. 24 * .V ;y, THE COURT: They are admitted. yyyy'^-.y / y y - ,'y 'X L f ' - `-'L1 X *i " J*.- i, '*' ^ ''A *'" *"y 1 - `1; 1 (Plaintiffs' Exhibits 1157A, B and C were 2 admitted into evidence.) . 3 BY MR. CARR * -- a * ' 4 Q Doctor, when you had the .discussion with Dr. Meal, 5 do you recall, was that before or after, do you have a 6 recollection of whether that was before or after the 19-- : 7 April 27, 1981 meeting of .the Biohazards Committee? 8 . MR. HEINEMAN: - '79. * 9 A That would be before, yes,, sir. 10 Q And he told you, if have written correctly, that 11 he did not believe that they had the ability to find out if 12 there was TCDD in the blood, he said he didn't believe the 13 technology existed for detecting TCDD in blood, is that correct, 14 sir? .. 15 A-, Yes/siri r; > 16 Q .. Sir? , .t > , - r'i.* * . i ^ ., *.,4 17 A That's what 1 said, ^yes, sir. 18 Q Of; course,;do ,you know whether or not he knew about Si `' , 19 the Hummel article of 1977? - 20 Av i don't know, sir. JHe was an expert, and I presume 21 he would know the literature. 22 Q He mentioned that it didn't exist. Well, you know 23 that the Hummel article of Dow Chemical Company said that it 24 did exist? , - i- 16 ; i. A I don'.t believe that's,What that article says, sir. \ L Q ;Doctor, didn't.we go through- that once? 3 -A Yes, sir. AndthatVs the conclusion we,came to. Q .*' We came to the conclusion that it was an article that 4 ' 5 spelled' out}how you go about detecting for the presence of . 6 . TCDD in blood? r v^ . - 'J' t S '*'' i' - 1 ` * i' .^ '' ,^ - '> ` .7 8' *,'A ' ' It spelled out how to do .iti it didn't :do,it, sir; . .. j ;Q 1--L '' 1 r ' ' J ,/1>. - -' - '- . ' . ." ^ ` ` . Excuse me. Dr,- Paget/did the author of. the article .' 9 ,10k, describe that,v.didh1 1 we:go -through it, that he.was describing how you can detect TCDD in blood? . . , . ^ \ II - 12 - A : Dr;, Taylor saysthat.it does, too. ' . k >. J * - * r . J *1 t ^ `( J _ iA - ' ,. ' i' r ' ` * ;' j ^ i' , r u.. Fr ' .* >. t - - , L t ^, hf 1\ * M w ' rr rJ T ; j1 t "* ^ MR> CARR: Would you direct the witness to'answer my 13 > ^> .14. question? Vi '` 1I ' -n /THErCOURT: i . O -V * S. ~ \ ,'i ' i , * 'V "*'V "f`f ,r v ^Doctor?,:you1 have to answer the question i* . . 1 .. V 15 .dUSeiciiys'^ - . 16. * A }/Could"you repeat,iit^ sir?, ^ . 17 . . 18 . . ` '?' (The previous question was read, by the -nf?ti K?;:fr'. >*' ` ?Court. ReporterL) >j.. J . 19 A ^That's what the'article^purported to do, yes, sir. . 20 - ,' Q . And that was published in 1977, was1 it not? V' - .22 A Yes, sirv .,\ . rQ And Dr. Taylor; in 1979 described hpw he did it with . 23 - the blood from Walter Kidwell, didn't he, sir? \ 24* \ ' ' A.' '"Yes, sir. ;J ` . B A Y O N N E ; N.J * 0 7 0 0 2 r FORM 1L 2 4 B jj .i, ' v 1> Q Do. you know whether .or not Dr. Neal was aware of this report from; the American Public Health Association and from Wright Stte University atTthe time he made the comment to you? f * 1* ^ i. *<) ' ^F ir ' -L , * . .MR. HEINEMANs .Excuse m e y o u r Honor.,jDid you say from th American Public. Health Association? . ` ^ t ' ' ' L* ` 1 ' *'*- , ' ^ '' L `- * ' . l. . i wi k \ KU" CARR? /YeSi v_ / r ; ;; , MR; HEINEMAN :e,What .report ;from the AmericankPublic Health;Association? . . `7 : MR.JGARR* 1156', counsels. Plaintiffs' Exhibit l56. , MR. HEINEMANi Oh, .1 see./ Okay. BY MR. CAKRi ' ' * *' s , < 7* . . X 'J / '. '' ` i * * r/ j . _ L. * L/ T '' , ` ^^ V '" ^ '1 ^ J . - ,^ ^ ` J M^ , ' . ' % v * n -H J ^L l J Q Now# my question is,; was he aware of the report from th American Public Health .Association^ and from Wright" State , University /towthe effectsthat TCDD was detected' in the blood ' V ' - :. 1 : v .- *\ it % ' ", \ ^ ^ 5 , - of WaltertKidwell or the> workers.at the Sturgeon spill site? v r -'-i t . ` '. '1. ' V / - `r v -r J ;, 's .V ^,\ \ ' K :,> >'1 . '` n. ' '- J ' , ` . L' ,.-'Af-i He> v/ould;have been aware ,,that-it had been reported, ` -V , -yj* I i ' ' >i - r i *' V'' L1 t* _ " , ' i"' - O because X would have told him. But,I don't know at what'stage, * -, .* ' t'i V ;J< ; . *-.}**'? .i - S^ 1 V <, . r ' - ',-- , .V he became" aware of the precise report from either Wright State: or from the,American Public Health Association. Q So when-he made the^comment to you,fyou don't know' whether or not he knew that it was Wright State University that did it, and that the American Public Health Association had' published, that is pronounced .publicly, the ,results of the findings of JWright State -University, is that correct? - ` .c v s -. i J-* 'J I A ;He would have known *.the first, but not necessarily '2 ttie second,. ` n 3 Q He would*ve known that it was a public .announcement 4 by the-American Public Health Association? 5 A No, he would*ve known that Wright State claimed,to do 6 the analyses, I don't know that he would've known that the 7 American Public.Health Association had pronounced on it, if 8 they did, . ,-. 9 ' ,Q DLoctor, the ipnitial ,,publicationr1came from the: *t m\ 10 American Public Health Association, not from Wright State . 11 University, ., 12 ' A Yes, sir, but we all 3cnew that Wright'State had.been 13 claiming to do the analyses*. ^ .., ; ` 1 1 wj i^ 11 ~*''x VJiii f*'' X\ -$Cr.j fi 1 ` . i ^ ( 14 Q Ahd-you.knewthatwhQnyou reported to the . ' 1,5 Biohazairrdds Committee'that it was -Wright State University? S '*.V >''' ` \ : , 1.. ' ' *i " 1 i. , . * - v j, , - . . * ' / ' * 16 A ^ I believe iso, yes, sir, 17 Q * Y e s ;And did; you.at that time do an investigation 18 to determine the expertise-of-the standing of Wright State 19 University in this field? 20 A `Wright State were known to be-- -- 21 Q Excuse me* Did you 4o any investigation to determine 22 the standing of Wright State University in this field? t 23 A Not personally, no; .sir, 24 Q All right. Now, Dr,-.Paget, you also aid. that-"- . > / *^ V}"} 1 strike thatv I won't get to that,.yet. You were discussing 2 yesterday with Mr. Heineman- .the ;faict that you have to have-- 3 ingest>v I take it-- a hundred micrograms per kilogram of body 4 weight before, y o u .can-^-that's the threshold level X think you 5 said-- of dioxin for chloracne?, . 6. A .That was my recollection, yes, sir. 7 Q The ,exact testimony that you gave was that the dose 8 of which chloracne is known to occur or the threshold is. one 9 hundred micrograms -per kilogram ;is. your exact testimony? 10 A.., -That was my recollection,, yes, sir. 11 Q That9s what you testified to? . 12 .A Yes. / ' \ ..- : ,, , .. 13 Q Yes. Now, by that, ,,you meant to convey t o the jury 14 that a dose of less than one hundred micrograms per kilogram 15 would not cause chloracne, did you not, sir? 16 A Yea. v. 17 Q And a 50-pound, child weighs approximately what, 25 18 kilograms, a little less? ,, , 19 A . A little less than that. . 20 \ Q Twenty-five kilograms, is that, correct, sir? 21 A,.. Yes, sir. ; 22 Q A h d a 50-pound child then would have to ingest 2500 23 - micrograms of 2,3,7, 8 TCDD .before lie would get chloracne, in 24 round figures?. 11 . -1 2 ' - .. A i"' v-v o YS m ',J ^ *- _ v >vC<k?\---;', \ -- - - .. ,' * ; L ^ ' r - \ f.( T- . /, L ' '-r <T.V- m '^V A"fi] 5 - 'i^y'" < ' " ,' ' ' / , 'Q /./Is;that correct, sir.? `- ' . ' ; ' '- 20 ,3 ; 4, A Yes, sir* 7 f j v v - , ^ -* . , 7t v s> ' r> .?iV w<^* Q.-, And so that if: he ate-- ^-2500 micrograms is 2500 parts 5 pr million, isn't it,, sir?^ ~ ' 6 - - A7 -. Ye,tsir. Well, no*-sir^ I'm sorry. ` I am not sure. 7- T Q If you contaminated something with 2500 parts per ' 1. ' L . ' ***'. - "t 8 million, it would have in it-- >- 1 '9 : V..A' No, 25 micrograms ia an amount, and parts per million 10 ' .-is a''concentration.' - 'A*-- - ' \ -- '* ^ - '/ 11 Q Okay, but you testified, i f my notes are correct, 12 that you:would take in/ ingesting of five grams of soil at 13 ' 4.5 parts per. billion, youwould need 500,000 times that in 14 order to get hlorcne? 1 15 :A That was, yes1/ ,, ; l . , , 16 > ,/ Q And you related, it to the 4.5 parts per billion in 17 five.grams of soil, did you .not, sir? \ / /' ' ,18 , . A .That's-- -you have ta.convert it to an amount, sir. . 19 Q And you did convert .it to. that amount? . 2 0 , :A `V That's what Z did,. yes, sir. .. . - r' 21 1 .Q And that would be 22,,nanograms is what you testified 22 to yesterday? *. ^ ,, .: ./ 23- A That's my recollection, yes. . 24 ' Q Well,'now, actually thatIs considerably-less than the PENGAD CO ... BAYONNE.. i J5 , *\ - '1 i" * * * i T* j' *, + 1 same calculation of a hundred micrograms per kilogram* is it v ' v -V f :"i' I 2 not, sir? ' ' -L. ,, :i. 3 A Yes, sir. * r,.* !' V, * i. `^ ^ , ;i * 1 t .4 Q Hew'much less is that? 5 A Well, a nanogram is *a thousandth part of a microgram. 6 Q Well, do the same calculation for us using a 7 hundred micrograms per kilogram level that you testified to 8 initially, sir. 9 A Can X borrow a piece,of paper?, What would you .like 10 me to calculate, sir? 11 Q Well, calculate if you will how many-- you hypothe 12 sized yesterday at 4.5 parts per billion in five grams of soil. 13 'A Okayr sir. , 14 Q Now, use instead of the value that you ended up with 15 yesterday* use the initial value, .the hundred micrograms per 16 kilogram. 17 A Back to what the concentration in soil would have 18 to be? 19 Q Yes. v- - 20 A To a hundred micrograms per kilogram to a 50-kilo 21 to a 25-kilo child. ... ,,, . 22 Q No, I want you to da-the,same calculation that you 23 did yesterday, with Mr. Heineman using instead of the factor 24 that you used with him, because I think you cut it down by H" , ' *' ' * .f ; b* * ' ; ' ' ' * % 4J, << * H1 ^ '' J' t -_ V- , *' '* ', ^ 1f ((1 1' .L * ; '* ^ ,'^ *7^.*Ly,/4, ' **'V'-'fc*' 'yL - , *' , * -r J *> -i t ` !KV 4 V " *V 4. " 1 -,. -* O t^k.'(TH X ** X *' J< ; ^* ,v'1 1J.- 1 t7, ' 't ' _L ( 1^ ^ L -,^^1 - , ; -* ,7 7' ' 11 _J " " ^f . 1^ .1 half, us th factor that ,you .testified to originally/ that is r `; , *. "2 3. "t '/ 4: ,,the.hundredmicrograms. per;kilogram; - ,` r" '' ; ' ; `""' % '- , , r .. ' -v-, -L ", v ^' ' /_ - 1 j i,^ 'L. .5 - "^' .A'.> I;'m^ sorry/ I.r:?a.lly-on*t understand the cal.crulation< !r.--L' J'` >* / 1 'f i J"J ` ^, V;J--',TV r-. :/J(',r *"," _ _1%' you wish"'me. -to do; ., ,\ :-. -: - : '> 5 .: V -Q , Yesterday you stated for the jury that ;if one ate 6 five grains, of soil------- -/" v - . ' - - . / 'I '"'.' ^ V ., '; , / " '7 7 : ' ' - A ''' Yes, sir* -L( ,:: .; _ : ;.L: <-'1.; . ;.V -J.. J '' ' . \ . .> ` -'' . `- " r vt v`;t ' , - Q You didn* t ^specify the weight of that person* . ; 8 " ;; ' \ :? : J- J i1 A 10 : A -' We were ,assuming an .adult, a 70-kilo adult* : Q - . Is'that what.you were assuming? J. V .':; , l :; '; \ U < Nj A? ,/ That's, what was assuming/ . . ;% j; . ' - .1 <D < J2; 'i * 13 ` ' , ,.J -i 14. / - . j- ?'":j ; ,Q A 1 70-kiio adult ,would be I S O pounds / . more or less? - V ' :: . ^'-UvV. ` A -, :.!Yes f that1s ite\'standard V , `, J.- . - !' V Vv -V ^ ., . V , , ^ \, ].i/' . So, letVs.use that.v ;Use the u100 micrograias p e r : , ' ; , ' ' v \ ' M ' , / v \ m' " ' " -- ^ ^ M V. , ( kiiogram then' and calculat ifor me how much there would be in / ) s , ,, 'f R M M L 2 * & ' Z* e oy L. 1 *O O 16 this five grams/of silv^ / L f : / ^ ^ r . .. ^ j u X i 1 -X - r' M l ir ' -1 i- ', - / -, , .. .1. 17 v ; A ; .- Sir, a hundred micro.grams per kilogram to > 70-kiio B A Y O N N E , N ,l . 07002 Z : ' *' 18. man is a'hundred micrograms^Itims Y .is the total amountt Z Z O ' < : 1 <* -7 . 7 ,, 19 ! that' s 7,000 raicrograms / X , 000 micrograms, that *s th total *. O ut ,, 20, ' Q ^ 1 u amount : Ahd five grams of..soil,. that1s five grams of soil is ; . 2 - mf * *t , UJ n A, 21 ^5/000 milligrams/ or S/000,000 micrograms/. that's 7,000 parts J* 22"- - . ' in 5 / 000 ;000 or approximately one part in 400 ./something, like % L ' ;23\ , :rthat. l . - v ;J ' T r ., 7 '- v ;' ; 24 / , . ^ -Q.r 'Now, Doctors convert it to-;-- ^ ' / - .. ; 1/ " , V o - J ;7 `w J., '' - -, ;* r . ; - as ' ; : ^r \ *- - / - "' ' r. ^ <H7 k ; 4r "* n ^ h - " ^ "* J 1/ " * ' * ** J 1 ' ' * i - '- r r ***-*'* 1* - - 7 ' -< r* V 4 T i. - '.-tv ' ' ** 1 * '11 ," _^ ^ -1 -. 4,, * * ! ^ i, " ' ', v ,L . , i - * 1 1** * - > ! t * ,, , ", ^ "1 , V L - - ' * ' < - ' k. V - ' 7 / ,^ ^ t \F. (/ - fc -^ i -* < * * * / '! 1 1 1\ ' - ^ " ' i . k>. V J r:` ' !.. " j O 'i , -- '' i V ..J *- ! +*' r 23 1 ft v. That's point one-fourth percent. --\ 2 \ / Q,.\ Convert it,to ;theJnahograms like you,did 'for Mr 3 , Heineman./-. ' . k *;* 4 :A . . I'm -sorry. X don't ..think you are asking me to do a - - " <, t^ 5 feasible .calculation* ` -1 ` - /-' -I-,* J<"L- 1 J 6 Q L Well# you testified .yesterday that it would have to, r- be 22 nanogrms in five grams of soil. " 8- A Yes,.sir. And you.asked,me if one took a hundred 9 .micrograms', per "kilo., lX* `* . ._ "" r ., I '.- ', r' ` 1 "U- " , ..." / 10, * Q . . What factor did you use yesterday?' Did yu us the 11 12, -13'', 14 factorof 100 micrograms?,/,. _ . . . " -"" ' J , cl fiT* i - t*i ,j` t * V- "S "- r , .t V ' 1 ** I 1 J t - ,* ^ I* -P-. .* - Ir. .1 , j, `. - h-'J I'No, :sir* / I calculated how much'somebody .might ingest ' ` '\-.v \ ; if they swallowed five grams of .soil containing anamount of ' M ^ /T ` ,* " J T .,l - .* - * j , - t *- , ** i*?: iV' V'- ?r. *.- *-- ' ' " f - * ' - TCDD ori^an;;amount ofv OCP/.^-< ,, t ... 15 Q ' And did you use .the .threshold level of 100 microgrms 16 per kilogram to be causing chloracne? \ 17* A- I didn't use the threshold level at all, sir; 18 ` Q ; Did. you not testify that.-2.2 nanograms: ih" five grams 19 of soil is 500,000 tintes, less thanwhat would be .required for 20 the threshold chloracne?.: ,,Didn'.t you ^testify:to; that? 21' - - .Well/ 22 nanoigrams/ JC understand what you ,are saying, 22-*-' you are querying the factor,o f .500,000, is that what you are. 23 querying? ./ ^ ; . 24 Q ' I'm querying. Doctor, .did you use the hundred f 24 ,1 micrograms perkilogram factor in making that calculation? 2 " .L,A - No, sir, not at all ^ \ ^ ^. 3 , , Q What did you use? -;'v ;/ ;L f .J ' I '"*'-' .. ' -r . ' 4 ; A - 1 didn't use any factor. ,-:i said that the does would be 22 nanograms, which is.300picograms per kilogram. 5' Q ./And you said that was 50CX,000 times less than 6. 7 required forthe threshold;chlorapne? "- 8- ; A I compared that with,-the safety factor. I' think it 9 ` was' of one-tenth of a microgram per,.kilogram. If you compared 10 it to a hundred micrograms, it would, of course,' be a hundred times .larger. 11 , v , 'r'! . _ '' -- 12 ' 13 - ,. Q - ,:Kit would be" how muich?;* * i . mx } * ' - - u , '4 -- - - A, It would be a factor., of 5.,000,000 times less. 1 " \ i *%. '" X * X- i i \[ \ X .- * \ ' 14 Q 'C; Iso ^'in*or&er for the ^.person; to get chlbracne, there 15 16 - would have, to be. 5,000,000 tlines the TCDD concentration than -S ' V ^ i Jp1 i1 '* f 2 t- JLj > '? v"-! * l w : t> : >-i v # , -. was-apparent at the ten percent contamination? 17 l - A' : Yes. >* :V - - r" `. 18 Q And,if there,13 4.5 parts, per billion in that soli, 19 you would have to multiply-.that by 5,000,000 inorder to get 20 chloracne?. 'V . , " /. -v V ,, -. \. .-* . 21 . A ' Yes * . .<1 *-v-ir~- ' y1 ' -i .i . 22. Q And that would-be approximately 220,000,000 parts 23 per billion? ^ V ` 24 ^ A .J Well, that's 220r-r^;/ /- -- o . i -' t. i' -- ''i * 'V 1 - Q .220,000,000 parts per billion?; 2 A- ..Yes,.,sir, without-- V ,t, , - 1 ^ ; v' J*' 1" r.( x * '* - : '* * , .I* " p i , 3, Q 'Now, in order for somebody that's going to consume 4 five grains .of soil, and that five grams of soil is one-sixth of ' 5 an ounce, according to you he.would have,, to-- that soil would . 6 have to be contaminated with 220,000,000 parts per billion of r 2,3,7,8 TCbp? `` v \ : - , V . 8 .Ar Yes. 9 Q To reach the threshold level of chioracne? ' io A Yes, sir. ..r. V,'. --.'\ ^ \ - Ln/ Q ,- .220,000,000 parts per billion, .and that would boil 12 down to, if-scratched out, that would be 220 parts per thousand, 13 wouldn't it,'sir? ., . .. :V 14 15 J .' ' 16^ 17 18 19 20 21.' 22 s 23 24 ' A- Yesv " .v \ k .. . Q , That would mean that soil would have to be 22 percent 2,3,7,.8 TCDD? , / / :\ ,r. * ;-A-' 1Yes, sir; . ^ -* Q So before somebody can get, chloracne, they would have to eat 22 percent of five^pounds, that's roughly five grams, they would have to eat one gram of pure 2,3,7,8 TCDD in order to get chloracne? -, . . .- 'A Somewhere we havelost some factors often, 1 fear, sir, in'those calculations. . 1 ' N 'r V - /"-."iVr ^ ` ' 7J' ` Q | No, DrifPaget these are'.the calculations.that you , I'., ` . y. *'\iv-JvtV v ,.#*. v , , , ; > f . ^ ;' '^ . i - i - ' fT?--r- - -1' f . ^ i V - - - ' - ^" ' " 1 - .-> r1 - * i .<./ r ' s 1 - BAYONNE, rN .J. ^ 0700Z FORM IL 14 B y< 26 K/ gave to the jury yesterday/ .and these are the calculations ;that you are giving to the jury .today.>Youwould have to eat soil sthat is 22 percent 2 -? in order to get chloracne, and 4' . chlorache;.ie the only badthing that happens from exposure to 5\ ' 2r3 r7>8 TCbDf is thatcorrect? / ^ ?./ ' . - 0, " A: ' No,',1 did1t say-that# sir. That1 s the only clearly .-.'N-*' - y y . " !.//-:. demonstrated thing that happens. ,v; ^ '7 O'.r "i' v.- ^ ' r.r . - y. "/- ','. 81 / 9v / . r; Q /. / " Well, we went through t h e ,long session the other day O/O-'-'- ./ H - ,/. V O ' . 'that i t i s the. only thing/that you know t the only thing.that r \ -. f P. * ^ v, * ,* r L % H-%- " ` i xr > . . ( V ' L. k '^ O ^v '' J1 J % 4 " 10 ;you beliey^ f `you7.said under oath that *s ,the only; thing that you , 11 ^ - i , J > . 12 13: , .believe^!si'going.j tbyresuih/,to homebody .being exposed to 2 ,3#7,8 '- - t f:)-'i*' , -A1 '"V -- l ,t 'r - A ;yes,.- sir. - ,; 'V- '0 /:^ " V'-1 - ' . 11 v '--,, ' 14, I"./' ' Q 'C ihhdta)graml'is V < i e t Seewhat is it, how many grains 15 '' :in an aspirin? Roughly,five -grains to ah. aspirinruisnVt there, 16 , >'sir.?/0:V';'0;` * - 17 . i f ' *- > *<r /18 : 19, / ' ' , f -- , 'A Well# an aspirin/tablet Is about 300,000,000 grams# ' - ./ * \ * V 1' l\ - r ^`n ^ 4 - ,^ - t' l, * " * i ' *" 4 ,1 ' ' r M- > ,1 f ,, V r* t wi-i ' ,J/ ` 1 , ^ ., > 1 * . ; so 1that's sone# well,:there .are one-fifteenths ofyfive grams. . * / r r ' --* ^ i.1 _ p v pT \ r / r , .' , .( ^J *> *, ^ i. ' k 4' 1' ^ r * L4 , .!'/ " '' ' 11 "v i, ' k ^ TL ". ^ *-, - t7 1 b J Q, , There are 65 grain8 .JLn/a gram, well--- ' ` ' -k L ,*O ^ ' 20 A I'm not sure. 1 1ve .forgotten grains so long ago# . r - 2 1 '- , /'I'm not,sure# but it*s 325 miliigrams. '/. . 22 23; . ' ., : ' / y" */' V1''// .r'' %/ - ' :;Q There are '65 grains ^in a gram/ I'm/sorry, there are -".'v' c'' //' -`f', ,/ : '''v* r `^ : v. ,-. l S g r a i n s i n a gram# soif.ah aspirin is five grains, that ,24 ;means;you would have to eat a third/ you would have to eat one !1 PENG4D CQ,,t BArbtt*E. =N.J.- 07002, ; ,' i. ^ JIL-k v '-."* - ' *^ * / * * k.k '1(* , , ^ ^ ^ '-'* y ' / '* " * - /> *1 * r,, 1 "[ - j ^ ' |".t** \ ^ ^ -.S' v " /I L-i 7,, ./ 'v.'>'\`r J' *-,` %.'J' ` ^-,J::r L7 '--; ' ,1*' V J i, ,";:V. ,* ,, - F 'iv `' - . ,- .-' ` ,* gram, oja would' have to t ..three .aspirins, three pills, the iV' * >1 ` 2 size o f .a n 'aspirin .of pure :2,3/7,8 TCDD before you would get. J : chloracne, that's what your .calculations add up to, Dr* Paget?. ; . r 4- . ' . .A ;J*; I'm'sorry>.,sir / ,I dont trust- this 'calculation done 5 . \ '5 . -'Under these., circumstancs&>,.- 77'7>l 'JV' ' V . *> ./ 6 V., / Q calculate It again/*pr. Paget. ; j v. :;; ; \ /- 1 :/ a'V*. " 'May'I takev 'mytim".ie. ?.< " , / ,, ..f-*^ , r" \' ` ./ r L . v - -//" ' r- " ; , '> . -j .''"r--i./v ''"j`,r, " '8 1 . ` kQ ; please do. - / :. .. / - .. ' ' *' J' ' / ./ "'`' " ' L, C. ' ' *'?. fj, : *- ' `-"S ' ' * ` , V- - L: .9 ^ t :A i- r , The ",* '' assumptions you ^wish jne to * t ^ r "J V i' / ^7^1f make? J -* ,,7 ; ' 1^ t '**'m* t'' p ^ j'1'*1 itiJ L 10 . Q 7.:The" as'sufaptibhs that .you .made with Mr.: Heineman J F Y ,,h*' ,,,,A Ku,`^ ;-'v ii i1 l%* 1 -1-. : i **i 1j> j 2 r ' :- - -' v --i ' 11 yesterday One hundred micrograms,pet kilogram of "body weight, :%.''''J'- .. \ v-vp'.-v.... .7 ' L';' _1 12 ''-.i's;thVe -threshIolVd,"kl-evfel-V\iof7cVh1l.o^rVv.ayc-n^e..\.,,1 '; . :^V 's` ;- ,1 'L, -(, -; -13r ' A . Seven thousand^micrograms is the dose, v7,000 micro," .' '7j 7,V v-' <r*f^TypiJ ' 'v\ ' '> , . h grams---wellV sir/ if you -assume that a 70-kilo man is going , , OJ*1;' ; .1 5 , " toingest lOOmicrogramsperkilogram, which i s t h e d o s e w e i.^ T !out.t ` ` 16:; were talking about, and. that^must, mean' that, there is .a 70 '*i .,ooo ..ct t i7" : times 100 o r "7,000 micrograms ,in what is^ingested. . Seven 'r 7 ;Vw V'" - ' '-> ` z '' 18 r thousdarid:micrograms in fivegrams of soil is 7,0 0 0 parts,. aiid zUoz1' <fl :t " i? j-._ VJ,, `; : ;"r 5,000,000, parts or seven, parts in 5,000, which-reduces to just, o<J a<o -- -,uz.,, ' 20 1' 7a little over . 1 percent/.14 .percent. . ;7 21 . " ` Q .V which is how.many^parts.per billion in that soil? \ , 22 , A Well, >14 percent ia 140.parts per thousand, or ' 140,000 parts per million * v . ` .; ; . . .- 24 ' 7 Q 140,000 parts per million? ,, ' V - - / ,* ... ; 1 1" .. ` ;,. . j r` - y ,j // ' ;`L v 1- -L . >,'.i\'^is *'-:,J` -1,1," 'si Jf `- ' '> ,,1 . ,r .. - ' -'''-'J.. -* -; v -^v;-r- .J ,, , k . ^ ', "'t r > f,, 'y ' - i. \ S '^ . "j'/ >.y/y'vv/yy; / " '"'V-1v '/ j ^ '* I' . '`L'-'V y`*V '.-/,.J'' / - . r;, ''-."vyv* - ' 1- i '' Ay ,v140,000partsper million. ; ' k / rjrW -JL l -v* ._/;- t j Vf / *>^k.^ `'''** ;. .* ; 1 , `/ p..^-Fi - l " p \^/-> :2 : ;V;''-Q -yy Per million? f - <* -.- / '/ y i. 3.' . ` '. .YS" .- :*'''r -* '1v A u "4*,-' ./ Q SO'you are talking about\140 parts per billion then . i* 5 sorry, 140,r0p0f000 Iparts per, billion? .' ` ^ ^ ^ 1 .6 '/' - 7 "/- A;;`..."s, that must-be- true. V . ' ^ : '. .'lik, EEINMAK: <Wait .*a`minute, Ifm lst here* ' < >1t V'% I1' 8 '*-b yi''tMRj.'-.;.,Cia r''Jvrr.1:*;/^./f7.'11+ -" ^ ^iTi'i,1,' j* "l'i"- ;i*j y411/;*-,,tJ' ; ^ .*_.tt.*.' i.*i,irtJ.-, '*!k' J- >V^,^: ? 1 / Q 140,000,000, '.We'were at^220-parts per billion, now/ 1' '* `*'I ` '-`J L',P ^ ` ' ' .' , .1 i.;l ' 'J 71, >>rU. i ' we*re down to 140 parts -per billion, and we*yereduced it .v- ^. kf 1*- 11..1`* .somewhat, but not a great deal. ; . ' / 12-y / :A; 140V 00o partsper billion, it*s ,14 percent, there is s y ' J 'J 13 no 'point in reducing it to parts per billion,, it*s ,14 percent* l `I- it' L` kr"* ,TVj*?* . - -V* i'j^ t14 : : - Q ff/iYou;said that wasi14b,;00O parts per million, did you . j.1-b-y ')tv;r`.?^ \-K . >*.- v .t .J . ; ' V- "\J ^ ; ^ ;v'/f `- - : 0 15 not, sir? ` ./ . '-//' ,* -- :/ .'--*'*' T 1 y?:* *.yv : ' 'f 'A/ " t-" . .''/: : ,vZtVor*.%' *'* 16 '..- ,'-i,;.7*41.uS'W1;l,vlfr-.//,ilr4'*'>pek>rc,ent'iLt-*ie'L-.'a`J;"b1'4? ,0*,`_0r*00;partst,rp,e-r:ynmi'Jltli.o`n,.:.`*-/-i--' "itoOo* *t%:*'jKkj*(,fii17t1<.";or 140,000,000 v-' parts per* b i l l i o n " > *;>/ -,.r-rviu"-T ?-,pxv -- /, r ' ^ Z , - 18 Q n All right, that1s/exactly right* - v_.._/ s ; ; ''5ZOZ(D'.y*~'r V*rf,k-* 1.9. y A ;: ;Butylt is still 14 ^percent, _ i> . r<OJ;-*1rt*v.1-.-; v44fOZt9.!, '". 20 ` - Q .. So you have ,/ ' : y . ^ 21' eat- soil contaminated to have ,,that 'soil, . /y ;>Vy. ^Ne with 1140. parts p e r that man would have to \ \y- . ' billion,>and that.sv; 22;^ .comes down, to 140 oyer a thousand, ,which is 14 percent? / ;.i <- 23/;; : ' ..A v'/ No,, .sir, that *s ;.14 percent; It is 140,000,000 V\y^ 24 - parts per billion, we just calculated that, /;/ ?js' - j v,./^;:t7- / ; lri. /* y-/7v:/ " r s^ . ;^ ';v'/ ' y /. ;' / ''J '\:V J` ;1''",` ` -. .. .( - ' ,: < 1-11>-* ..f - :'_.r j . y ^ / , ' i'. 11 .- y V ' , m\ t 29 i >;J Q Well/;you said 14rCp/ soj it is 140^*- .r 21 / `' A ^ It is 140,000 arts per/million, or.140>OOOVOOO parts .3 per. billion l o t ; *14. percnti; K ,, : - . \] "i`- .4 Q / ;^Wiiat you'ar saying ,is 140,000 000 .parts per billion 'L " * '~ ,t ! f r , ^ r~ ^ K* * * 5-, 'is what you ; saying ,:Dr.. Paget? - ,*1 .. :/- s / t ,, ` , *" .V; ;/t '6 T\\ .-A-,;- ';it?`s"*1`4'per'cent it is 7,000 `mri`*crog'rams,in f"iv1e'^. ' ` 7` '8" grams. ''r. *:[t J Ji ;; . Q And that is how vmany .parts per million , or how many U 9/ partsper billion? " ''7^ iYV\\ w .7 ,,:7., 7% - VV 10 ..\ A ;V ;That* s -.4 percent, 14 percent is 14p jparts ,,per v; , *L ,, ^ ` ' " ^ 1 ,^ J 1 * ' *. "i r - * S * 1 J. ' , V -m f ' ' 1 . ( * . -t ' * * * O ' I f '*. ** 1. , '' t' * " k J . ,, , 1 1L * 11 thousand, or 14 ,000 partsfper^million, or 140,0P0,000-- -I?m 12, sorry." ;, v /;\V" 1 13 -Q ;/ Dr ; Paget , you, are completely fbuled up on your math. '/ .' >/ V p-H Vr\ -^ f.1 f 1 iV''* ._ ` ' * .' ' . r - :. '1 ?u` Ik/ i* t \ cr~ *' ] " ' '. - : " .14. : :Af-- Well^v 'IT^wouldn.'t.be Su_r^pirr>i-se-d.-* ^ .f/ ' f 15 V Q ,,^l40-,parts per ..thousandris :it, sir? r-" fe? -v` v - A : V : - W v." 16 ; * - `'''"Weli,;it* s 'il prcent'/^so .14 percent is 140 parts 7J02 - r ,FORM JL 24 0 ' '17' per thousands t v:,^ K\ ' s&i t v /. ^ ;'*V '-: 18 , ;` Q \ No/ Dr. Paget,'140,parts.per thousand is 14 percent, BARONNE 19 not .14 percent/ you misplaced.yourdecimal point twoplaces., 20 O" 3 i*T- 21. * ".-AJ' .No /.14 percent/ is 4 parts per hundred./_ ' Q' { ^'Yes, or 140 parts per thousand. ...! "1 .' `r 'v - .vV'-'*-' ' ` . 22 ,* .;;A;., I'm sorry,*siryou are posing me.: .14 percent--- 'A 1'- 23 ' - Q Take.140, put it -over thousand, and scratch off,the 24 L j last zero of each and^you,have .l4 over a hundred, don't you; ^ ^ ^^ IL ^ J 1 r _^ L^ 1 r - ` XJi , *u * - * *'* 5 o f '* ' rVi 4 -, * "t - t J' ;. 1 j . ^ S ':J L i , s . ^ . -1 \ f J r , , n "1 '^ lJi *' " ` -y 1 I- m\ +1, .* ' \r ' ,-t * ^* i 30 l .Dr. Paget?; ; ? "r - F ' J.l^^ t Quite right,, 'This Is. .14 percent, so.it's 140 parts 3 per thousand^ 140 parts1 per ten .thousand, you are quite right , 4 Jv\' Q! Now you are getting closer, Doctor. . . -_ ; 5 v A It is 140 parts per .ten..thousand, or 140,000 parts 6 per ten million, or 140 or-r-v-wait a minute, let me put those 7; right-^that*s 14,000,000 .parts ,per .-billion. ' _ " 8 ...Q 14,000,000 parts per billion. _ 9 . / A Or ;.14. percent. ^' 10 Q So; now we are down to 14^000,000 parts per billion^ i f is that, correct, .sir? r ; ; . , ,,. ;^ .. ;"--- 12 ; A < if my arithmetic,.is\o be,v-relied on, which it is. : , /: fv j& r - : o * . '' 13 quite obviously, not under,these '.circumstances. . 14 ; Q*. f-; .. ;j-i':So^to,-eat,, now, (-l4,,(Qi0-0i>>0-r00 f'-'?^ parts . per /b'iv,l\lion is ` ; . -',- a _ .' is threshold level for chlorache? ./; "' 16 v A, ;Ifj you- ate five\gra^;;of .soil containing 1 ,000 ^ ^ 17 micrograms, of 2,3,7,8 TCDD, that would be correct*' " 18 ; Q , , Which would, be- contaminated with .14,000,000 parts per 19 billion? ,,Dr'. Paget, you*ve .got.50 percent of the workers at 20 the pentachlorophenol Department 236 got chloracne. Now, are 21 they being exposed to a product :that has 14,000,000 parts per 22 billion of. 2,3,7,8 TCpD?l ; C ! ./. 23 .A ;' X udon't know, .sir* . .. 24" / , ; MR. HEINEMANj -In penta? w ; :._ ; PENGAD CO..: BAVON NE, N'.J, i .`jV-a' ; x 31 1 BY MR. CARRi '! ./f V'. 'J 2 Q Anytiling they1re working/With. Doctor, according to 3 Monsanto, 2,3,7,8 TCDD- is :hot',even in.pentachlofophenol? 4 /A ' And X believe that may be true, sir; Q *,,/ Now,. Doctor, do you ^now .any .Monsanto products ;that 5 6 ;contains' 2,3,7,8 TCDD at; the .level1of--- or any product any- . where that's ever, been manufactured,to your knowledge at any ' 7 8 , time anywhere that contained,14*000,000 parts per biliion of 9 / "2,3,7,8 TCDD 7",* 10 -j L' A Ho',-- sir. "*i,>-v. ^,,. ' ", _V., ` . ^ 11 J'`r Q ,- And, ^Doctor, you know there is a lot, of people got 12 chloracne,.people, at Nitro,,7West ^Virginia, got chloracne, ' - rf.-- Vt\"r '%/ ;1:* J ' ' .\ , "* f* ? - . " ; . - , > ! y f \ io ^ i ' f V r "" . 1 1 3 ^ people 'at^^ummrich* Plant'got1"chloracne, are you saying, that 1 4 all these people had; to ;ingest, had /to eat something, had to. ," - - V -v' (J // " i " * . * *- '> J . it' \ ... ' , 1 5 take into their bodies, not .just be exposed to it, and touch D 'M t *"*t , ^ / 1 6 ;their.skin but'get -infoftheir1system 14,000,000 parts per 1 7 , billiono2,3,7,8TCDD,.the-product they are working with, 18 they have to take it in?. ; 1 9 .; A1 .vYes-- r- . ,*'~ --* - 20 ' .MR. HEINEMA13: Objection,, your Honor. He's comparing 21 , apples-and oranges, with this witness He went from taking a 2l dose up. to a large amount-and.now. he is talking about that ); C' 2 3 level ih; t h e ,p r o d u c t *.*''*- r '' 24 . - THE COURT: 'Overruled. , BATONNE,N.J. 0700* FORMIL24B -s7> '/it, 1 - , `' ), ' l?' *,, -V , f. '' "` ` A. Well , sir , the point about ..the calculation we 0ve just \\ ^ . - ' '' ; gone /through was it started with .the assumption you consume five grams -of soil, aB you ,correctly pointed out, just about a sixth ofJan ounce, but those people-re'exposed to lower . concentrations" of vastly/greater -amounts, obviously. 0 1 Vastly greater;amounts of .which? ^ . ,,r 1 -v1*l, `t v ^' ", ' r' : 'A ' Of the -material froig.which they absorbed the dose. Q Well, they have.to get in -their, systems equivalent of soil that's contaminated: or anything---it doesn't have to be soil, whatever they're work with has.got to be contaminated, and they have to get. it in>their .system something that's - ,^; r 3 v* * v :k . ", - ,- J' ' 1 contaminated'.with 14;,000/00,0'parts" per -1biliion. - !' 1''- ' ' . m r i ': 5/v . - P , - -r* '~ 'V ^ 1V " * .- -, .A They have got, to get in their systems 7,000 micro- 1 fr'V/T? V* groas. .- .'' \ V:.j> / . , ` 1 ^ . - - - Q And they are not1going .to.-take, in pure 2,3,7,8, are' -,L''/- `S' 1 viV'} h M^' 1 *V _ "' ^ ,/./ ' ' . they, sir? They are going to -get it because it is going to be contaminating something, Correct, sir?j. ' A' * Yes, sir/; / ^ A.' ' / ^Y. * \ . Q' ' And this is 4r-- ^ . ..MR#.H E I N E M N .-Are you talking.about 1,400,000, Mr. Carr? - ' .*' -- f- c ` A In five gramsvof:soil, sir. / Q Well, it doesn't have to/be-soil, i h can be any thing. '' j * aJ L J' ^"*/:. - ; * " - , : ; * 33 1 -Xn1five grams.': " `'- .- V -, 2/ Q In five tgrams *v It has to be contaminated with I4f000,000 parts per billion o2;3,7,8, doesn't it, sir? 3 V ;HR* 'H E I N E M A N ,Well,. now,. :your Honor, let me object/ '4 Witness continually said. ;.:14 percent. , .5 ;/ 6,, MR. CARR: And l.'had him break that down to parts per billion airxd he broke it. down ..to 14,000,000 :parts per 7 8 billion; 9 J'` ; <HRr HElNEMM s >;We 11 I 'm ,,confused because----. / 10 - / 1MR.^ CARR; I'm sure.you a r e ` kV J i ; r>MR. HBIHEMftNIv Z getvlV4UQ-rO.OV/' -y ^ *};i#,* v , h r.; -,.:v , *' - - f ? t ^ * fl V ' ,l Jk ' '' _ - i,/ v J ?. I ; ' . ' .. 1 2 y vTHE'COURT,; ^Objection overruled, i followed th' 3 ; calculations^ Go ahead;,Mr./ C a r r ; ' : . .* .. 1 4 h . Well, .14, it is still .14 percent whatever it is in . -/''j'j'-."'"f^{ p'r/^ ;/ f,i, , 1 5 terms of parts per,`billion, is'ir; ' , 16 Q Dr. 'Paget, would you like .to recalculate your figures? 1 7 A I can't see the point, ,sir. 18, Q Neither,can I , because you;came up with'the ' "j-'. ' - 1P*^ 't * i t ' 1 9 , 14,000,000 parts per billion. 20 A - ,X aid ..4 percent, thatVswhat I said. '* 21' Q Excuse me,.and.did you not also say 14,000,000 parts 22 per billion contamination .in that .soil, sir? - -. 2 3 A That's how I ''calculate it, not necessarily correctly. 2 4 Sir-- PENCtDCO.,BAYONNE.'N.J..07001 FORMILHB ,, .' 1* 1 n^ ^ ' , * -t ^ f3 ' 1 , ^^ ' *. i / ,, . '/ 'z " - . ; / / ' / ; - - - / ^ ' * // `* , " - 1 , A I saythat was the reasoning, I. airi not necessarily "2 ' . correct I know the* figur :I. am talking.about is *14 percent. '` ` 3 Q > Dr. Paget,, ! want you you/are-------------- testifying here 4 under/oath r y o u , gave calculations to Mr.. Heineman yesterday , 5 that 1 am working with, . and X am asking you to do the'same thing today'that you did with Mr*.,Heineman, you said then it ; 6: '. 7 would be off by a' factor/ of 500,000, title 22 nanograms, well, ; /8 '` 9 that seemed like a lot to m e , and/this seems right ih line with P , - - 1 ' " 4` _ ^ \ "f ^ A, - ^ that, i donltsee anything, wrong with that, 500 times 22,. 10 500,000times 22 will come pretty close to this figure, the 1 1 figure you ;gaye<yesterday was. pretty close to what you gay to ' 12 -me. . ' ` j *, / / * i i , t t ; / / 4 i \ J- v ? * '/ ' -^ VV .y - ' - V V ' "J . .^ - V ' L, " -, 4 \ \ ". T/ > ^^ , 11 , ^ ^V> 1 3 ^ A 1 If -it/is ^the^ same/as/. 14/percent, I agree. B , : k , `^ P-t.i_.iy- J. ? ' V m ->* ' ' L- , . . , 1 4 . Q ' I don't. I am taking your calculations. You are . i-t\,- , -{ ,\f*>, - ' . - ' . J J* *! ' : t i t ' * ? f -r* - *4- * , :; ^ <' 1 ,* .1 ' 15 . doing the calculations, I lam putting them here. Mow, these. "1 16\ people at Sturgeon can go home and rest at night because that. ' ,17/' soil doesn't contain 14,000>:p00 parts per billion of 2,3,7,8, 1 8 does it, ; s i r ^ V :'# ''"'V - *,,J "3' , j '. . ' (' / 'J J 'u ''' . 19 A ^ 'That's so, certainly,.yea, sir. ' . ,/ 2 . , Q /JArid the workers at tho Kriaamrich Plant ;can relax. , -21 .: .because there's never been^any product made by riybody that you 1/ 22/ know of1that contains that kind of 2,3,7,8 concentration, is 23* 'that correct,' sir?' . //'*'^ " .. 4 /. '2 4 ' / a y. - A /As/far. as,eating five grams of the material, yes, sir , 1} \ r * > 1 L" ^ , / s- * '* . .V , ,/ ^ J/ j;' n ' - - -:/ /' _" 1 , 'BAYONNE,N.j: OTO01 FORMIL24B 1 Q It doesn't make any .difference, they are not going to 2 eat it/ maybe it is going to get 6n their skin/ so they can 3 have a lot.greater contamination .of 14/000/000 parts per 4 billionr it is not all'going ..to be in-- 1 think you said 10 5 percent goes into the skin? 6 A That's the rough figure/ yes. . 7 Q So they can have ten times that contamination on 8 their skin? 9 A If all they were exposed to was five grams, yes, sir* 10 Q Five grams is a pretty lot/ isn't it/ sir? 11 A- :, Thatis one-sixth :of^an* ounce/ as you pointed out. 12 Q I'm sorry? .- . ... ii' * "' / 1 v.i,J ;;, 1 3 A I said it is one-sixth of .an ounce/ as you pointed 1 4 out. ? !7 1 5 Q Yes / so these workers at Krummrich Plant that got 1 6 chloracne were exposed to*something that contained the equiva 1 7 lent to 14/000,000 parts* per billionr-?- 18 A No, sir. 1 9 Q --- of 2,3,7/87- 20 A No, sir. It depends, on the amount of material they 21 were exposed to. ... 22 Q Nell, whatever, they are exposed to has to be 2 3 contaminated to that extent. 2 4 MR. HEINEMAN: .Objection,, your Honor. 1 BY MR. CARR: 2 Q Whatever they are exposed to-- - 3 MR; HEINEMAN: .Your .Honor, he 1b comparing apples and 4 oranges, and he is intentionally trying to confuse the witness. 5 He knows that we are not talking about 2,3,7,8 when you are 6 talking about pentachlorophenol. You are talking about totally 7 different dioxins, and the.contamination level may be 8 completely different. 9 THE COURT: Overruled. , 10 BY MR. CARR: ~; ' ' ';( , \ ' 11 Q ' We know .the other ,dioxina are a lot less toxic than 12 2,3,7,8,. X think the most,toxic one was 1,3,7,8, and X think 1 '> ( ^ * ! J- ' ; ,t'} .'1i . L''v T 1 3 it was supposed to be according to Dr. Wilson or somebody, X 1 4 can't recall, who".now, one-rtenth as toxic as 2,3,7,8. So these 1 5 dioxins that these workers .at-the Kruxnmrich Plant are being 1 6 exposed to, if 2,3,7,8 isn't .there, is a lot less toxic, isn't 1 7 it, sir? 1 8 A X don't know about the Krummrich Plant, sir. If 19 they were different dioxins* yes, they would be less,toxic. 20 Q And so for them to get chloracne, it would have to 21 be a lot more exposure, it would have to be contaminated with 22 the dioxin at a greater level .than 14,000,000 parts per 2 3 billion, wouldn't it, sir? ........ 2 4 A No, sir, not at all... i 1 Q It wouldn't? Why not, sir? 2 A . Because you are talking about contamination that five 3 grams of soil would have,to have if you were to eat five grams 4 of soil and get 7,000 raicrograms. If you get 7,000 micrograms 5 from a very much larger quantity of material-- - 6 Q Well, how much? 7 A The contamination rate would be less. 8 Q Well, how much more would they have to eat than five 9 grains of soil, these workers, in order to get chloracne? 10 A) -It deMpe.n'Jds'. ^.You don'tt ishave to eat it, and you can 11 absorb it over a period. 12 Q [ Okay,, how much?' They have to absorb it, they have to 1 3 get it in their system in.order to get chloracne, the equivalen -,rr r ;s tl< ' ' 1 4 of five grams of soil that .would be contaminated to the level 1 5 of 14,000,000 parts per billion .2,3,7,8, don't they, sir? 1 6 A They have to absorb *7,000. micrograms or thereabouts 1 7 over-- -from the material to which they sure exposed over some 1 8 reasonably short period,, yes, .sir. 1 9 Q And by reasonably short period of time, you mean 20 what, in 30 days? - . 21 A Something of that sort, I believe, yes. 22 Q So they have to take, into their system the equivalent 2 3 of five grams of soil that would have been contaminated with 2 4 14,000,000 parts per billion of 2,3,7,8 in 30 days time in 1 order to get chloracne? 2 A They have to take something .like 7,000 microgramB, 3 yes, sir. ~ ...... 4 Q is the answer to my..question correct, Dr. Paget, the 5 one I am asking you, not the one .you are answering? 6 A Yes, sir, that's the way ..I am stating it. 7 . Q Thank you. And theae workers so far as you know, 8 they are not eating anything, are they, sir? 9 A , I don' t know, anything about ,it. 10 Q: .. They are under/compunction, they are under orders to 11 wash their hands and leave/put their .clothing and make sure 12 that they don't ingest that .material, aren't they, sir? 1 3 A -I don? t^know^ sir. *, - 1 4 Q You don't know* that?.. You are in the division of 1 5 medicine and health, responsible for the health and safety of 1 6 those workers, weren't you,,Dr.-Paget? 1 7 A But setting the rules--- - - 1 8 Q Weren't you, Dr. Paget? . 1 9 A Yes, sir. . 20 Q . And you don't know the rules for health and safety? 21 MR. HEINEMAN: Your Honor, I'm-going to object to 22 that. Mr. Carr's confusing .the witness with two different 2 3 things. Mr. Carr/knows d a m well that this guy was in DMEH 2 4 from December the 29th, 1978, until the fall of 1979. Now, 's<: 39 1 when .did the penta department close #/Mr / -Garr; -is that i 2 ? evidence?/- l<- ? <tc t mm* . " 1 V _/ 1 /r ' ^ T, v: c. s."< ^ ./* 1 - . ' `' 3 / / . . '/ // THE COURT: , Objection s joyerruled. / ' 4 o- BX'MRi CARR| 5/ r "F' ^ * ..A. 6' Doctor/ in the., course of;.your .practice .for Monsanto, /.w . in order to adequately protect the workers, youhave to know 7 *./ r/8 the rules for exposure aa/far/aa they are concerned# dont you# 9 / sir? ft .& VX ,.- / vCt''tf-/. ;' " 10 V- 'fity '' X- . -,'v. : '*' :,, ', /X >'/ X / J; ^ V. i';* 'i* ir :'/;/>/q tJ2/Y%^;dc3i|iC?if^v.if// '.>?!>> r,,x . 7;' X 4*/* ) ' "(' . A ' v fri* * * , V > - ; . . . ... / Z-..v /" '/, / / v/;' - .s '- , ,. 12 , /x [h' No/ sir. ' .-^V/V ' I ;'Z7. . . -/ ' J -*?*lr i/ _. n , Q ''.'Now, ^Doctor/ if they are down in the material digging; \*i 1 4 - ;with thir hands, they are going t o get a different dose than 1 5 ,, if they are simply working .with it .with gloves on and with / 1 6 /masks on and they .take their glovos off and their, masks-off 1 7 . / ' /when they eat and everything else/ isn t that correct, sir?/ " ,'Js' ( h ^ s- . - )8 A '\ j"*r ^** ' * *>jK'-'.l'-O- '*-* r Jir-" * ls* ' C > > _ . - 1 ,v V|k 7 ' 1 4 ' ' t, * ' -- X ; Somebody has; to be aware of that# it was not my 19./ /respousibi4itiy -tq/dol ttt%t/ .. >/^: '"/^v ; >-> / "/S.X- -;'X: ^ 20 " :/ Q-. Bow can you deguately determine whether or not your 21/ ;workers ar /being;exceed t o jcisky/levels/bf 2,3,7,8 or any, 22 . other chemical 'without/, knowing the precautions that they are .'''X - "{- -c i'. ' 1 - 1i,. ' 7'. ' J . 'i*-* X-, - -- 2 3 / /instructed: to take, and;Jthe/precautions ^that.they, do take? - r';; ' - '"o'X-'-X,X..' .' 7 X"} 7 `X , ' ^ v2 4 1 v. A . One/has to; say. how. much mterial they must not; / ^ ^ PENGADCO:.'.BAYONNE.;N.J.`07002V.FORM'IL'UB y-* -t1/>/ , * , -;,(f it, I V V- 40 1 absorb, and. then from the concentrations "you can work out, what <r , '- ,' '' ,- 2 the permissible operating procedures might be.- 3 Q Well, one way or another^ these workers got chloracne), 4 ' didn't they, sir?- . 5 A. ^ yes,.sir, theydid. j.. \ 6 Q And for them to get .chloracne, they had to get into 7 their system, they had to ingest, it had to come into their 8 system,, because.the chloracne .works from the inside out, it had /. ft,i1 . f i r'i.> 9 ' to get into their* system,"-.that^material that 1they were working J - . U , ;10 - with, pentachlorophenoldid they not, sir? * ' - * 4+S.. < ` ^ S^S 1 . "'T L '^ ` - " */'/!<.'> 1 ' N' f i; ,'r . - . 11 A ;!.;>pr. some *contaminant ,.yes,, sir, ` 12 Q. Well,, the contaminant isn't going to fall out of the , -st',- t, l"iK:-rVi r.'*1`. '*1"''-i t' J 1. . 1 - ** *' >' 13 penta,. it is. going,to be in .the penta? : /' 1 4 A : They have to.absorb t, yes, -sir* 15 , Q r And that penta has to be .the pure product, if they- 1 6 are taking it, it has to.contain dioxins at greater levelthan 1 7 14,000,000 parts per billion, mustn't^it, sir? . 1 8 A - rNo, sir,. " < ':r:_ ;' 1 9 Q , Oh, no? What w ouldit have to contain? - 20 1 rA That depends on the ^amount from which they absorbed 21 'it, 1 ,t<-% >-* "f*f .V- .. '` ,J t , r ,, ' 22 Q Well, if they absorb five grams in a month---- . ' 2 3 A . If all they.absorbed was .that,hand they had 7*000 2 4 .microgramsin five grams;, ,'they might well get chloracne, yes, s ir .Sr * * f" bayonne;n.j.-97002' 1 Q They would have to absorb something, the other 2 dioxins they would have,to absorb)/they would have to be talcing 3 into their-systems the equivalent -of, let's see, 63 grains in 4 an aspirin, they would have to be taking in the equivalent of 60 aspirins of this product per month in order to get chloracn 5 6 wouldn't they, sir? , A They would have to take in, yes, that's roughly, yes* 7 8 Q They are going; to da that how,, sir? How arethey 1 ` 'S k ^1 r r 1f 1 J ' 9 going get^it^in;thelr/e^6^^ins?..,.. 10 . A ; -1 don't know; sir* . /./ 11 Q * And it 'would have to. be-contaminated at a greater 12 level, since, there would:,have/to; be at least ten times the * ` i ~ . * * ^ > 1 3 level- of this? 14 A If all they took was, five grams, yes, sir. 1 5 Q The dioxins that would be in that penta would have 1 6 to have contained/dioxin at least at the level of 140,000,000 1 7 parts per billion, wouldn't it, sir? 1 8 ;A If all they took waa-fiva* grams., if all they were 1 9 exposed to was five grams of material, yes, sir* . 20 Q Not exposed to, you,.said it different, Doctor. Not 21 exposed to, but ingest. 22 A Well-- - 2 3 Q They have to take into their system-- . , 2 4 A'" Five grams. J1-: 42 * ^ " \. "* ,, ,'j^J ' ' W-' *n 1. ' Jl - H "* ,, ( S< ^,f , - V ^ ii , < ^ ? H ' 1 ^ V 'r" P - ` lf, ^ T * `_ J 1 , y-t. Q :.y-Five. grains in: order ^to getchloracne/ don*t they, sir? 2 ,L , ' If that* s the contamination level,:yes, sir. Q Npwf Doctor, ,then I ^takeTli, and you don't know of , ,.'ir 3 ' . S \,, - '' ' -- 1' ` \ ` / '' ' lt. i 'j ^ . v `j * ,"*. ' if . * j': `t . p .t . _ y .'*>' j ',, / > J" ,, 't , 1 > L ',4 1 any amount of exposure where they would get,, well; if they take;' ; 5 in less than five grams ,7 it'sgot to have in it more than. 140 .V Vs 6 ' parts per billion of dioxin, doesn*t it? / 140,000,000 parts per - ' * ' ' ' L?jJ < ' 3 ` '^ r , / '" '.V, * k '' i j- !.*_' * . y . /bi-Lll'i*o''n of ; k,dri"ksox.i1n>, d-ol'1es*-n/'t^t it, sir, -ifj t'h`e1y tak,er t -irin*H1-v^levss; thra"n iy ` V ' /. ' 8 , . ;fve;;gr^s?vs.'fv/:n "ii`-'{ji ^ 1 /-*!.'/\'l'i.1 "- - 9 i' y,, ; 'A1;1. If;they' take.in lesa,^ ye'a,,4 - < :. ; ^7 ';^ ;1*"\ r* "i ^ JAftp ^ *]' ^k`41h " ' Ji!` * n '-' F 10 ` Q t'^If 'they take "in^niore t ^ ^ ve it can come' J;; ^ c.y .ily ;f-'w y` y . -^ ' It - down by whatever factor we >want :to .essiimei if they take in a ` y*':' ^ ^ ' `^ ''f' ' " " N\ ' 12 t hundred'grams ^si month t `tihehV ^can ..divide this, by a hundred, , ; i3 .. can't we, ;sir? No, divide it .by .20.1, '* . ^ l" * ' < V >' 7 ` "^ r - r> 14 k ` ; I ' "* v ~ f.' 1 a, "i ' '' . -* fcJ it; -y- y A' y- .20/ y es,Jsir,yr,;V. 4 'r'* * " y , ,, ,^ J * ^ t . J *. , ' - _ J , i :.y_ ; 1 5 ; ;q . v So;,divided by 20 , they have to he working with, they -`i ""'' *` ' '*/ , v *.,' .y ' rv r y < v ' - ' ^ ^ ' - > , V : i,,.. 1 , " i t "j . >' - ' `, -- "- ; : 1 6 : ; have t o b e ingesting something.that hasslightlyunder a, ' 1 7 million parts per billion ..of dioxin content? ' / yy 18 ^ A ' >I don,t-- "yes,v under thoae circumstances. *. j : . y , V .;'!y ^ *;v y - `-'y; .- ^ ` y y t- > ;vy L. - V 19 l , '- .Q. `^;140 divided' by ;20? " : ;;y';''.L-y\ ;t' 1 \y'' ''\'V!t'<J;y ;; .' ' ' y , ./.V '-y > ;20 ; A ;Is; something, like;7CUy v\ . . :: " ` n,''y: ' '''' / . `2 1 y x / 22 t- .MR* H E I N E M A N r U ^ y -'dbnVt^you use the 'calculator?. ' ,1 *** * *.'*.*' ^ i t. . iff x s` ^ ^ * ;p j . ' ^ . ^ "> - *' s ^ *j i4 _ -i i . ' - i \ BY. MR.'CARR:; :\ '` vw ;.^:y^ 'y.:y :y. '/'y ^ .2 3 " I* *: '24. ' Q A It. would be.about 7,,000>000 parts per billion... y MR. ^ZNEIi!rar>^l>bn'l,t /letMr., Carr toll you^ use,the FORM IL 24 B -jj.' vy. A.i'*v 43 - . 1 - c *_V v 1 calculator* ,\ .7 , ;V_ ,, _r7 ' . - \: 2 ;.MR. CARR: Yur, Honor, i; Mr. Heineman going, to ; 3 instruct the witness wHat7to.do? . 7 ;;' ` :. 4 THE COURT : Go ahead, Mr., Carr. . 5- _ Q The. amount of material, if they took in 50 grains a . . "L- . *` -- L,` . " \ ,, ' - ,, -_'k month of 3.40*000,000 parts ..per billion, that's what they would 6J 7? have ^6 take'in in orderto .get chloracne, wouldn't they,Bir? 1.' - -:J'ii_'<. . rra*S,*'/,Xj*-dlh'* fr? v-'f *^'A` ?J"'v4*:*7-? .-' ~ '".7 ,'* l '* 8_ , A ;tTheyt would have^ 'to take-in .7,000 raicrgraras in what- - - iL'P. 7 +:-> iW.-*f>iV`s**i, *^ JV & r * - . ^ t '^ -7:, . ' . .' 9 ever, concentration thy took it in, ; '" ;> ^ jf (!>:t*jfJ*V *-*<**i ~ i'v.'fli1*^ i l i, ^L - h'. . ' '1 io . 'Q , .;N, no, no. * Xf i^' sVn-tenth the toxicity of . io rt-*- , 11- . 2,3,7,8 , they .would have. to .takerin 70,000 micfbgrams, wouldn't i- `"vn i L -1 . . *. i 14 \ ^ .'7 ^^ V ` - 12 < they, sir? .- ^,7 .- L ' 1 -'v;7 7 ;>k.. ^ ' - / w. 'v.r-(- - * - S s.+>> t .. ' 13 A Yes, they would take in 7^0 milligrams. "7 1 N -i- * J' 14 Q And Doctor* sinee we-r -all the people then, in the-- n**- - ,, 15 7`'fCjIoC,,_j- ' .16\ 1 L*. since only, 50.percent got ichloracne^in Department 236 , th th^>50 percent\must:hv:tOcen dh,ies8vthan 50 grams of the ; BfYONNC,, 07002: -^LoOe' ^ ;17., material they were producing,; is:that correct?7 ; ' ^ ' s' .18 _tJ - *.JJ _* 0*o9<-r ^ 19 'gO.i 1HJ L t" 20 : A r That's a possibility, yea.. 7 q So they could take, in 48 grains;.and not get chloracne? it " t - t1 tj t ^ ^ ^s # ( ,7jA-'-1' Well, it doesh't exactly work like that, but they ,id* .- - 21 ,I have to take Jin-- -- they Would take, t o .some acnogenic dose for _- - 1` 22 them. ^7 r " 7 '* '\m~ 23 Q ; Dr. Paget, then "inasmuch as the only danger from 7 ,, t.. -V,;,` f* ' ' '> '` ,, y ' * - ' , '24 1 dioxin is -chloracne, and ,you don't know-- have you ever heard . >f*l.*/f.-vv-t* ; ;. "1^ \ *J, v^ 7i'- " ^ t * . ` 7'^ J> / -, \rt ^ ' s 44 1 of any soil anywhere thatwas contaminated to the level, of 2 14,000,000 parts per .billion ;o 2,3,7,8 TCDD? t 3 ' /!\A -No, sir,/ ' /\ 7 '/-- ;. 4 Q " Then the concern that, we have about Times. Beach and 'S Minker-Stout where it has, oh , levels ranging from less than 6 a part per billion to maybe, la;hundred parts per billion or ,, 7 , maybe even'six hundred parts per billipn in some places*, 8 actually all that concern .that we have over that soil is 9 misplaced,/isn't it, Dr.- Paget? //-, 10 .A, I believe that, yes, sir. ' II. Q The government, has spent millions of dollars in just 12 doing-- Just doing uselessjthings,. because that soil, hone of 1 3 that soil is contaminated at the level of 14,000,000 parts per 1 4 billion,, is it, sir? 15 -.A No,, sir. ,/ - ;L - ^ :* ,/ `\ [ - l. >. . i ,, ' - _ .- , 1 6 Q / Now, Dr. Pagetr, ho you really believe that the. EPA 1 7 a n d t h e CDG.and everybody else that's concerned about the levelE 18 of dioxin in soil, do you really believe what you are saying 1 9 here that it has to be contaminated to this extent before you- 20 have-any cphcem? ^! s ;: 21 i. A L N o ,.sir . I said if you were to take a chloracnogenic 22 dose in five grams of soil or any other five grams / that was 2 3 the level ,it>,would have to/have^./) ! ,. . . .;ii-.t;!-/:.X- i' j .'/'i:-ai-f; ^ ifr-/ .... . 1 .. . * 2 4 Q (j Well'Doctoxv you' are talking about eating it, you - * ;''.,.* i.l- iJJl'.'S.V,`r--v' 'i, v '.*V~S'ffietlij'/l-j , t -A 1J , v ,V <1 ' y . ^ - r - \ 1, , i \ ' /, - I y - * "I 4 Kdi -V * >V V - * * ' '*v - r " tr *\v F O R K ' IL 14 B P C N G * b 'C O .'. B A Y O N N E , N .J . 0 7 0 0 1 ^w ,**0***' ,-J 45 1 are talking, about hot; justwalkingoh it, n o t ,laying bn it, not ;1 . 1 ,,- . ,r ^ S ' '...^ r ^ ' -a5 ' - i ' ` - ,'* A ' ` y '* *' V *r , j 2 !'rubbing- it on your face, ,not taking abath, not putting it in / your! ears/ but washing it-.but, you are'talking! about eating it, 3 4 because you are only going to absorb ten percent of it in .the '- / V ,, ""J ^ * 1" ^ t i * ^m<z tr ' A * * ' * '* * J^ tw : *soil' from, what you have;given us.: So you can Wallow in soi1 5. ,,T ' 8. ! 9,' thatfs;1contaminated toi4,,000,000 parts per billion/wallow in A- A '' 'J r-.' ,V%:' .'';/? V . ` . -! .* .it; as long'as;you' keptryour .mouth Vshut and washed your hands, ; , . L;- IA V A a A AV 'A^A^A *:>& A -* A - - r v :v" - ''; V a a '< didn* t get it in you, you could wallow in it every day- for the U - a a *-A a A A - v Jl"" ;A - - o " ! '-'r rest ;bf your,sXife> !bQcause^it;;isibnly that which you take in in a 30-day period that has any .consequence, no way: could you 1 0 . `a ^ r<a <,'*# /':a a v * a v Af;&vvi'> a a a .a ,,- ; ^ a a a -*' it" absorb enough to get chloracne, isn ?t .that correct? *..V--f ' r >' ;.,t ;, ' ' ", ,c ,-1 : />" 12 / .J--A^/^^xtdon^t: JokjwJj^hat;* v^--- a ,; ,* l 1 3 Q Well/ figureLit out., f If you .were not going to , :>, 14 absorb the ten 'percent; that is on your that ten percent doesn* t .. T . r' . . : / y i v A V , J "A"*' '',l-. . . A .'"A j ` '1 .i; ', ^ . ` ' , ' -i' ' r J ' .J, L ' 15 get ingested immediately, ^it takes; some time-. - . , - .. 16 ! !* A- , if you had been:wallowing in s o i l 1 ra sure it would 1 7 , rhave more than, .five grdns,Aprobably a,thousand!more, a million A l?s - r * ^ ,r ' ^ ^ * i 1 " ,, f ' v' ' ^ .. ^ m* * 1 r . . y pm !* ,, 1 ' i^ p 1 r ''c ^v , 8 times more than five grams / - ... .* t ,' ;r'` - 1 9 , ; q A*,ingested, taken in* 'JL; 1 v ''L; 2 0 'v ' '\A skin?^; ' >>.- ; A^ '2 1 Q ; O n y o u r skin; Doctor, but we are talking about Aa ' c-.r-2 a ;" 'Aa Vj'>:'A - ^ ; ^ >--^AA, ; ' 2 2 , , ingesting; itv / ,' ' A . ^ | '-i'j.! A,A;^-:.A:. \ A-' A-..\ 2 3 , :' a A MR. HEINEMAN:A^Wbll /'-you'Jceep switching horses on "+ j i "A o . a fc ' "** ^ i A (, - * l ,h N * *'"* A*' i. *-* . A '* ' '' , ' T '! H-< . ' ' A '' - 2 4 him, Mr.'Carr; VJhy dori'tlyou stick with one arid let him answer)? PEN GAD `co.v BAYONNE, N.J, .,\.'` ;1'hV,*'`.'L-\'. ' J '`V*'vi t v . v - ; ' - - ' t, . 11 -if-- J 1 > f ^^ , '`A : , '. ,-*v-Vv .-,l , ,, , . .'*" X ,' -i .. l u >> - , -n i 1; . - . :,,? Ol s ^ * t- ^ Srt * " ' k. iJ" /' 1 '' ' \ ` 1* jJ l .>i , *.. `' 1 BY `MR. caRRs^:,'.f. : v`y "v'% -' ' . - 't - ' - - L ' - A <".*. * y ' :' . ' - -" '- 2 Q ^ Doctor, there:really*.:1s no .concern about soil that 46 .3, has a .thousand .parts per-; billion .TCDD contamination,'is there/ 4-*. sir? -..5 -''A1 Ji I don't think there is/- ho, sir. 6 . - /Q There is really no concern that has a million parts '71 per bi.lT-li;iio*ni '-TCV,DjD',;'A'iis ..theJjrr-eA,,"'-s-Ji-r-? '-< . ` 1 -V " - 1^ ^8 ; V A I would be getting to be .aannxxiioouuss about that, yes/ sir . ;Q - ` .Well/ anxious ,rwhy? ^Ypu .are -ju s t .one-fourteenth of, 9 / : 1 0 the`amount* that you need ;.,threat;in ,five grains in order t o 'get ;; V - i i * ' ' ,, ` v i^ .T . k , 1; , " i- . L , i J *?*' " ' - *L * ' ` .V " : -. 1 1 ;;it, and nobody's going to go around/vchildren may, indeed, qh .. j ' 1 2 occasion ingest that 'But all thoylre going to get is.a little A 1 3 bit of chloracne, and that chlqracne is going to go away as t i' 1 4 soon as, they quit eating;that dirt? ' . . - .^ iv' \ \ ;s".' `r`. ; ^ ,v,i 1 s ' ";V- ''f' \'-'t - v '' A ` X wouIdn*t wantJto see children getting chloracne, ; F O R M JL 24 B 16* V Q Neither .would i . But chloracne has been described' in 17 * some places,/your workers h a v e been told on occasion that .\ ' 18 / chloracne looks just like la case of 'teenage acne, your know / I?' 'that,, tbp/ don't you, sirl/v*' r -i' 1 // 20 .21 \ .. A ;^ 'X ,don11 know that //^ :^ T \ j." ' '!;'/ y - Q ; You don't know. thatl vWe swill demonstrate that. . 22 >1 - -// \ M R / HEINEMANs /Vlhat ^evidence is there of that? . 2 3 ' ;.'MR. CARR: There will be/as.soon as we have Dr; / 2 4 itousch. - ^iere wili;be///;V.',\'. ^ .1 ," * ; ; /"- '//- V ~. ;-y<:r - _ ' ' ' L . *"/`,'j.: / / 'v^n .' v^ ' i '/// . ///; v: _ - ;r/ -" i < ` ' f . " ``V ' J '' . ,1 ,* 1 MR. HEINEMAN: Well,* if there is no evidence of it 2 now, I object to it, a n d l ask .that the jury be instructed to disregard it* 3 MR* CARR: Your Honor, -just as Mr* Heineman asked 4 the witness to assume certain facts that are not yet in 5 i 6 evidence,/ but .he -believes>wiili-be,'I'd like for you to assume-- i*; i .I,\ '' j{ >i r, " , / -v " 1 MR* HEINEMAN:' .Can you name an occasion when that 8 occurred?* rL,;\' ` *' , :VV' THE COURT:. Objection is .overruled. 9 10 MrV CARR: Just this, morning, counsel. 11 MR. HEINEMAN: Pick .one* .. * 12 BY MR. CARR:- . J, .... .,, Q Dr.1Paget, is the only problem that you are going to 13 get from the dirt contaminated with 14,000,000 parts per 14 billion of 2,3,7,8 TCDD is chloracne which is going to go away 15 within a month of the time .you are not exposed to it, why the 16 concern about soil that has .one part per billion or 45 parts 17 per billion or a hundred, parts .par billion dr 600 parts per 18 1 9 billion which Is just a small .fraction of that, which is * _ 20 necessary to cause chloracne? Why concern about it? 21 A . Well, I don't think .there is concern about soil that 22 contains one part per billion. ..In fact, I think that's been 2 3 said as a safe level by the Center for Disease Controli- 2 4 Q Doctor, you know as matter of fact that they have \-j>-:-`js`v r. ^- \, 48 r - ;;v ,, .. * *:/-,. .nVV^. <-- :-v-. _ ^ ^ 1 said that one part per billion is not a-safe level, cannot be lt 2 considered safe. ' You .know that, don1t .you, sir.? , / '3 -, ; No,,sir. I don't .know, t h a t ^ ' % ,- ; ,u' ?' ' \ i--- - , `^ V^L- -i ` *',L 'l- hi- -j , ' " i ,/ Q r And my question went beyond .Juat one part per ' 4 ;.kv 7tl , ..' . (, -.v J.4- ^ "f--4 ' r' billions My question went to 45 parts per billion and* 5 - 6 hundred parts-, per billion and 600 parts per billion,' didn't it, 7 \, ,8 ',;9 1ia; Lv-r.A,v ..Ye's,:^sir.'- oV; t'i. J -I ; Q ,/ Indirect your attention just to th statement that , 10' youjust made that one part per billion is safe. Mould you - look at-Exhibit 1255 and^turn to Page; 49- thereof' And for the 11 if t 1 ** 12 record, 1255 is a'document; issued by`th Center for Disease , 1 3 - Control, Renate,Kimbrough, one of the authors thereof And"it. 1 4 is..dated 1984." Have you got 'Page;,49? ... ^ ,; J Jv>-* p * f'V ' ^ rv, ,i 1 ...-1, -. \ ,lf ; A ..Yesr, sir. r -- * J r"1 ' ^^ i . '7-^i-tv' -, ' 1 1 --L* * m < - >1 " i* ^ J hr t 1 -' t ^ t .T - l- 'J1'"' - J ` ' L ^ ,1' ' 'A r, 1 6 .V iQ it says there, does it not, ,1In ^residential, areas', ievel|s at or. above one part per billion TCDD in soil cannot-be ;s / , 17 - 1 8 " considered safe;, and represents, a level of concerni*V, Doesn't 19, it say that; sir?. .. \ / '' V `'" ;-- ' 20 . rk .'.YesV `Sir; -v tV- r ' / ^ ;//-, r^ -s*-;\V 'k' .'l!" . 4/ - V ' Q . And doesn't it use the words, "levels at one part ner - .-- x \ '\ y - ;; - / /, .22 billion TCDD in soil cannot be considered safen?: ,L - .\ y -. 'ry'"-r\ - ' ' Lr* ^ -,j - ^ ,J'v ^ 23 2 4 . Q < And now, has*that'corrected your-thought on what the*. ' '.V -i>.-'-ir- 'i-; ` --t- ' ..* .- . , fi :r;-V:r'y ' . '. .' BAYONNE. NJ. 49 l CD.C has said about the level of soil :contamination? .2 A .'That statement--- ^ ^ ',7r'v /v '! , 3 ' "7'jB. ..sir?'. 7 '7\ ' , `7. , - , ,, ' 1 7 .,1 '. -r '/ ' ' 4 A . That, means the7level* .is less .than one part per ' 5 bil..lion;sCainA-be..cons?id;ere-d- s a t e s*:VtUa. '''- ` -, . ir, ^.7:.^ 1.^777^.--^ -v v 6 Q y 7>Isthat'what that 'meansV^sir? , *7r ` -. . * .. ; '7 .. 8 l-'`*sX3 U\) v O P ? ip c;rv,, ivv'^ ^ - - > .% '- ' . V ' ry i 7 ' Q. Wo, it specifically,doesn't jsay that at all. It says " { i /- y > f J " ' V.', i v l` t - m ,;J 1 . i. ? levels at br-'-above^bne-part^per'billion in soil cannot be* 10 considered safer :'\ *V-, J... ... , '. ;"V, .\ n : A .M , sir,and the.converse-- . * 77 t^I~ = 1 *.-7''7- 1 2 7 Q, .- .Xsnitvthat what it says?:, ... ' .' t . '7 ' ' ; .7 1 3 y . ^ A \ ' Yes* - - ^ V "..', * 1- . ,t v `. , 14 . Q And .the converse is?, . '7. . r/ 1 5 . J A .. :The converse that levels .below ,,it1can -be considered' -?1-, ' " ,,f> ^:r," 'P`t 4m 4 1 6 ,,safe. ;V7-'^ ^ .. , , . / j; v-, ' 1 7 Q And one,part perLbillion,rlevels above one part per 18 billion then,are unsafe, .right7 . ... \ . 19 :A That1s .what it, says J;';' . . . ^' 20 (-- Q ... 1And. something. that has above one part ;per billion ' : 7 . . ;;. ' -77;- 5 21 cannot. be considered safer ^can v,itr;sir? 7, - ^ r . r. S ^' ''J , ^ \ 1'22 7; ^ . `4 %J '' 7 A . Yes, sir.; That's wha t ,it says. . 2 3 , Q . Is that right?^ That'.s what it says; and that#s v;hat' 2 4 you believe^ isn't that correct, sir? ,,7/ P ENG1D COl, BAYONNE. N.J. 07002 J F O R M IL ,24 B \<-rJk. *+ v ;' ' *"1 ' ` , , . s' ' ; / / ^. - v " * \- . 1 - A ;>*`^N**0_V4's1irrr_./ "^fV^'"r'1^.^vY./';V^*`K*'. '-.t' /*r,, - " '*t.: :, ( 2 ; 9. That's not what you >elieye? ^ 3 : \\\. A \NO/.sir/ it depends\on the circumstances. 4 ;; Q ,Ohr that's right/yquLbelieve it takes 14,000/000, f K '->r; fc'x jV/ .. . - 5 d a n V t . v o u y J s i r ? ! ; `v /V> 6' s ":.A ^o- j?-; .. . .. \*-`s_ ^ t-.'*a -yiA ! . - 7 /. .;.a: You' :used the' word / you ^estimate that one part per . ! .8 '' billion 2,3,7 rB tetrachlorodibenzo is probably acceptable T't-/ i; ;>\\h 4 tl> , V. ;- 'F- ' - 9 medically, in"santophen. f . - . : -, 10 -- Yes,, 'sir. .4,.' ^ --v - ^ 11. : / ; O s -And above it follows that above one part per 12' billion is>not acceptable^medically,/isn't that correct? 1, 13 / / - a ;r `rNo, .sir. , \ */ i4 0 - .That doesn't followi.: v ,i' 'o'--* Vu iL ' ^ ^ t . \v J 15 /; 'a *S'' No, it does.n''tV; *n'o, .sir 1,1 'J` h ^ ,, F' ^/ ( ( f BS '' . 16 tQ ..Now/ ' Dr. .Paget; ; -r , -/ r . . 1-/ IT MH. CARR: Your Honor, I'ja sorry/ I have gone beyond - 18 eleven already. _ . '' ^ T / ./. ' 'C -'T .' K; -,, ^ 1' - ^ I? THE COURT: Okay; We will take a short break at this i20 _ time. :.;][ would remind you ^during all,the breaks,1this admonish21 '' ment will.hold/ you are h o t t o discus a this matter among your-1 22 selves or with'anyone outside,the jury panel or as of yet form 23 any opinions or conclusions^about tho matters on trial; The 24 Court will be in. a short-recess. .v " !.; . . / . f '>/ "1 V\ *- ` - ' . -- u. '- 'r- , ' J -. ,1 , - , 11-- 4'j* L - .,'* r . -/iw-V: ,,. v ' j' . BAVONNE, N.J. 07002 1 (Court was in recesa.) v 2 (Plaintiffs' Exhibit; 1274 was marked for identification*.) - 3 MR. CARR: ...Your. HonprI',d offer Exhibit 1274 into 4 /:; V'- ` evidence.,;t It ,is^Dri'PagetIs .calculation on the necessity of' 5 6 14,000,000-parts per*.billion 2,3,7,8 for the materia 1 to be f ..t.- , , ^ t .- j J ; ; >,- contaminated. 7 ..... .. 8 ; (Plaintiffs* Exhibit 1274 was offer into `9 evidence.) * 10 THE c ou rts Any objection? 11 MR. HEINEMAN: Just m moment. No objection. 12 THE COURT: Fine. Admitted without objection, 1 3 thank you. 14 (Plaintiffs' Exhibit 1274 was admitted 1 5 into evidence.! 16 BY MR. CARR: ', 17 Q Doctor, I'll now hand you Plaintiffs* Exhibit 1194, 18 which is a box containing bysol. It has on the front of it,the 1 9 contents of the dibenzo-p-rchlorophenol concentration of 4.5 20 percent. Would you look, at that and see if that isn't correct, 21 .sir? / 22 A Yes, sir.. r * . 2 3 . Q Now, I would like for you to calculate, if you would, 2 4 that's 4.5 percent of that bottle has the material in it that 52 is used; is .prepared at Monsanto; that.material is made for santophen, you understand that, don't'you, sir? Yes, sir. Q n fI1d-like*for you to calculate for me, if you would, -" ,?'i7U7 7/:^/> i-/,<'/<W:1:.* .v. /`-JV'-'ftK.'"*;*'.77V. . t the amount of contamination .with 2,3,7,8 TCDD that would have 77' 1 .^ -l. ' ' ' f? '- T , - f> ,- r v, - r, ^ r v* , r. ^ 71 , C1 f 1 J 1 < ^ ^ ^ t<- -1 s i *J ^ be in that'4!5. percent before ,ingesting the contents of that ,, `-`V -*' r-. \ 7 -. bottle, or the number of bottles you have to ingest'in order to -. ^ 5j JS i ' ^t i iV *V `r* * V- 1o ; - .' ' .V - get chlorache at the level you-have given us here . ~:7 ,MR7 HEINEMAN: - Well,: I would object to that, your *. Honor. That*s.calling* for too.many unknowns, there"is ;no way - to make that calculation. / . 7.\. ; " \ ; * // 7; ^ '> T^H*E COURT: .O'bjecTt^i' on `is*^Ov' Ve-.rruled. , ` 7 ' -v> - . . * 'T _ ( .'A' \ Also; you have- to ha-aware .if you drank the contents - -7 7 'V;-- 7 ' * `v "i-'v. ` , Vv*7'1-. ' *7 " ' 1 ^7 ` - of;this bottle you 'woulii die .from poisoning, from "thephenol. .7 7 Q - Dr ./Paget, thah isn't the question that I am asking. 7/ -7-, V 7 - r. 7 - '; . ^ ` / 7' I'm asking, you, making the. assumption that you wouldn' t die, ' 7 what's the level of contamination .for that lysol-that you would need--with 2,3,7,8 before you ;would' get chloracne? 7 A 7 J W e a r e going :to assum-'" 7 ;\ . 7 .. 7 - ' / : 1,j* ' ; . *; Q 'The calculation before, to make it eas/for you, Doctor,/you can/round it:"off, -your, calculation before was based on soil with; ten percent!of OCP. in i t , .and that is .Lysol, the 4.5 percent of !the santbphen, so you '1just roundJoff the 4.5'and make;it-much asir., just use the; figure 5. ' / L i" y * - 53 1 A-. I'll round it off ta five> five percent of five grams iy at a hundred--- ' ,/ V y ' ` yw'. ;/ 3 y, MR .>.HEINEUAN: ,You/are asking him in the whole v- t - t'. j'jv .* V -i.-i t* y > *r ifr -J - , `` Ii*Cl r- }/, ^^ '"JIV . 4 , DOttle?1 / t'sS&r ii" > * J v . v ` t _' ; ..y ............... . - *. ' . - / / J; - * ' _ v. tj.. ./ i-o ' f-ij-; `y '\1 ' 5 '- 'A y.ItVs;, ;14 percent.'i,?i \j y V . ` ,T ..t . . y -... / . y ; 6 Q. Again, it's .14, percent, of.course./ -/ -">> y ! Ly y '"" -./ V; ,,c- 7 A Or/ 1;4 million parts-per billion, in fact; * .... 8 Q 1 .4? - ;-;/a ^ ^ V ;' ^ , \ - /./ '>. 9. 10 11 . A Yes,...I made 'an error in calculation. - - y /: V s , - , . * ' ` .- j . -` ., --'j- 5 ^j -,.1 Q .So you are telling"us now you made an error?. ' A I vinade an error, i .corrected itwhen I ;satdown here 12 aiid looked., at that. It1 s, actually ,1.4 million parts per 13 14 billion,.not 140. f Well>\ IVm sorry/ sir, I calculated incorrectY* `' ^r - .> ,y (' s ~ ^ ^ ' j M * r Ar ` t* 1 , , ,, ( tt ' ' ^ 1 ^ mr ,* iH *' > *' k \i . - {' ' b q rWell, you want to calculate it again? 15 A ;; Yes, sir, can I do it with'you?. .; -. , . v ,/ ' =. - /, / 1 ^ ^ `- 1 6 ' Q : .. You-started out .14 .percent, did you not, sir? Is. 17'J 18 that still the figure youvare working from? / *" ^ " v 1 * * " 'r '!m _ , ^ t >. /" A - L* * '> H ," , That *e *14 part3 in >ten"-.- * f ,_ " ; "1 " J^ ;` Q \ .Excuse me, Doctor, if-you could just go with me, - 19 ' i t 20 T V.y'; 1.4 ipercerit;^ v . - ^ - ' '-r" ^ - - / > ' _ - 21 : 1 A - .14 -percent, .14 percent, 7,000 micrograms in. five 22 ^grams.. / * ,v .; --'n -v^//v^v :V- - /;// ,; : 'j S -j/lS 'A'r.V-v ' '-- 2 3 '. -Q . . .14 percent, correct, sir? . 2 4 ' r .A \ 0 ;14 percent;y - '/;,. ,,y . . 1 ' 4# MR. HEINEMAN: You said 1.4, Mr* Carr, that's why he is correcting you* Q l Excuse"me,. 14 percent* , . 3 i ' } i\k - I A .14 percent, yes* 4 Q .14 percent is. 14 over a .thousand, is it not, sir? 5 6 A Well, can I do. it--- ,, \ " ;V ) i-' .';VL` ' ' >" 1"' L Q No, Doctor, if you don't .mind, let's do it so that we 7 8 can understand it. A Well, I'm tryingt o vdo it so X can understand it, sir* 9 10 Q 1*4 percent wouldbe---- 11 A *14 percent* ,. 12 MR. HEINEMAN: .Objection,, your Honor* If he is - 13 asking this man to do the .calculation, then why doesn't he let 1 4 this man do it the way he wants to do it? THE COURT: Overruled. It is proper, what he is 15 doing. . 16 ..... 1 7 BY MR. CARR: ,, . 1 8 Q ' Doctor, your initial calculation is .14 percent, 1 9 correct, sir? 20 A , Yes, sir. * . ..- , 21 Q Of whatever material .that we are talking about? 22 A Yes, sir* ,, 2 3 Q If it contains .14 percent of 2,3,7,8 TCDD it will 2 4 cause chloracne? * s, 1 A If it was in five grams, .sir. We are talking about 2 five grams. ' ' *' V'\ ,r: Q All right.' 3 , -i A - As thematerialyea,. five grams of material. 4 Q ` Well, we will take the five grams, if the five grams 5 6 contains .14 percent of 2,3,7-r8 TCDD, then that's going to caus 1chioracne? 7 ... 8 A A single dose might ,,well., 9 Q All right. And 1.4.percent is over a hundred, isn't 10 it, sir? / ./ 11 A No, .14 percent--- ,,. 12 Q Would you just-- -1.4, sir.. 1 3 A Well, you keep saying 1*4, and I say .14 percent. 1 4 Q Doctor, would you please .wait a moment? I am 1 5 perfectly aware ofwhere* the .decimal point is in these two 1 6 figures. 1 can see that. ..I put it there. X know where it is. 1 7 1.4 percent is over a hundred, .isn't it, sir? 1 8 A 1.4 overa hundred is l.,4 percent. 1 9 Q And .14,if we. put14 over a thousand, what do we 20 have, sir? 21 A That's .14 percent, .yes. ,. 22 Q 14 percent? 1 .- 2 3 A No, that's 1.4, over it, and a thousand is 1.4. 2 4 Q 1.4 over a hundred is 1.4 percent. 1 A 1,4 in ten squared* ,. 2 Q A ;Dr^ Paget/ forget ahout -the tan squared. >*.A i''` *. ' :' /' / *' I ,, ; i - J - - r ,_ s, -1 A Is"1^4 percent* 3 1 - - if t ; ' *- * p^ ^ ,v i *^ , Q * That Vs right / Doctor.. And move the decimal point 4 over one place, do we not# ,sir? Move over one place# and we 5 ^* v*r .;fA A V.*'/ i 6 add a zero# don't we, s i r ? . 1' A All right# sir. No,, .14 .over a hundred is .14 percen- 7 8 1*4 over a hundred is 1.4,percent# .14 over a hundred is .14 percent. 9 JO Q Yes# but if we/eliminate/the point, Doctor# move the 11 point over one place# eliminate the point# we add a zero; 12 ,A No# sir. - Q No? 13 _ ^/ A ; One 14 parts per thousand-is 1.4 percent. 14 Q Sure it is. That's ,,exactly right. 14 parts per 15 16 thousand isl.4. If you multiply 1.4,,times a thousand, what will you get# Doctor? > ..... 17 A You will get# well, .you've got 14, in fact-- 18 1 9 Q And that's 14 out of,,a. thousand, isn't it# sir? 20 A That's 1.4 percent-- ,-well# 14 out of a thousand is 21 1.4 percent# I'm sorry, sir, 14 parts per thousand is 1.4 22 percent, not .14 percent. , 2 3 Q X agree, Doctor, a n d 'we are talking-- 2 4 MR. HEINEMAN: Well^ youVve just been using different 1 figures with him, Mr. Carr., You told him 1.4 over a hundred-- - -i,, -v. r . . 'i/i \:'-r..- ? > f. ; ; ." y" 2 \\ MR. CARRSj; Yes,,. Bir^ that1s 1.4 percent. A Yes, and,1.4 over a .hundred is 1.4 percent, and 14 3 1;J*'1-f. . ' i ` --j .' : , ' ` 1' V ` * 1 1 . } over a thousand is .14 percent. 4 Q -YeS.'^ 'V^ "". ..-i.t * 5 6 A So ws are talking about 1* 4 percent and hot .14 7 percent. ,, 8 . Q All right. .14, and .we put that over a thousand, what will you'have, Doctor?, . . 9 10 ,A Well, I 'm not sure. <14 ,over a thousand, what you 11 are trying to convey by that, sir. ... 12 Q Doctor, .14 percent,*is less than one percent of a hundred, isn't it, sir? % ........ 13 A Yes, sir. 14 ,. Q It's a little more than a.tenth? 15 A Yes, sir. 16 ...... Q And we end up then with 1..4 parts per thousand, do 17 18 we not, sir? ....... 1 9 A 1.4 parts per thousand, right. 20 Q Is that correct. Doctor? ,, . 21 A Yes, sir. That's the w a y .1 wanted to do it. 22 Q All right. Fine. And so. we end up then with what? 2 3 What is our final calculation. Doctor? 2 4 A 14 parts per XOrOOO, -140 parts .per 100,000, or 1,400 1 parts per, million,, andyao.,on, -and -.we come to 1.4 million parts 2 per billionV ' " ' '- . : \ r : . ' q v ;-;; i y 4 ? ' -.V, \-'i\ i - 3 i/ ( *. 1 .. :r .> - 7 . r .. - *, ' - * v. * : v * 4 A Million parts. ,. .. . 5 Q Well/ Doctor, let1s \even .work with that figure, all 6 right? That's 1,400,000, .isn't it, sir? .A Yes. 7 , 8 Q So now the contamination .that's necessary in five grams of soil has been reduced by a factor of ten. It's now 9 10 1,400,000 parts per billion? 11 A Yes , 12 Q All right. And we c,an eliminate the other calcula 13 tion and use-- no we can't,-because we are out of paper. We will put it back on this, one, with your permission, and we will 14 put a scratch through that .one and put in its place, reduce it 15 by a factor of ten, 1.4, make that a zero-- a comma, rather-- - 16 now, is that correct. Doctor? Do you now go with this figure? 17 18 A .Yes, sir. , vi- . Q All right. Waive, gat down .some 240 parts per 19 20 million .to 14 million parts .per ..billion to 1,400,000 parts per 21 billion in the soil to be consumed? ... 22 A For one dose to be absorbed from five grains to give 2 3 you chloracne. . 2 4 Q . O r absorbed over a period .of a month?. 1 A Yes,- 'sir.'; 1 <- ^ ; - , ; tf J,,., ! > ^ > /- ^ -***_. * ',*H_** ' -i 2 Q Because it does accumulate in the body?. 3 A Yes; it. does.^.1,0' *;-r- * Q And every day as you eat some soil, that 2,3,7,8 goes 4 to the fat, a portion of it, doesn't it, sir? 5 6 A That's believed to he so,/yes, sir. Q As a matter of fact,., wouldn't one have to be-- -how 7 8 much of that 2,3,7,8 is being taken -from the soil, Doctor? 9 It's hot all taken from the .soil,, is it, sir? 10 A No, sir. . 11 Q There have been some recent studies that indicate 12 that of the soil you consume only thirty percent is actually 1 3 2,3,7,8 comes out of it.* Are .you aware of these studies? 1 4 A I believe that's soyes,, sir. 1 5 Q So actually you would have to multiply that by three, 1 6 wouldn't you, sir? .v----- 1 7 A Yes, sir. 1. -1 1 8 Q If it is in soil? 1 9 A Yes, sir. , 20 Q So actually it! s not the .soil would have to be 21 contaminated with 4,200,000 .parts^per billion in order to cause 22 .chloracne, wouldn't it, sir? .......... 2 3 A If one dose of, five .grams were to cause chloracne. 2 4 yes, sir. , w1 1 **' ` V V - -1 ' ' " :K > \ ; r. , .' h 4. J ", ' * . 1 F . - jlt ^ L* ' -` s, f *1 _ 1 *r J .J 4 _ , 1 C ' +` -F- k n 1 '/ T^ * % . \ _ f L. ' -U ^ *K 1 - t , . \ r " '- 7 - r v ' ,,-,' i i ' r- '> ] j ^ - ,? > i t ^ *,- K / ' . _ / `V , , - v ^ ,> '. Q \f i M l .rightlj.t- SoVactuailyjw'e are now back up to * , 2 4/200,000 parts per-biilion>tirivsoilbQcause two-thirds of the , * ^ - 4 - r * * ; ' ^ . l * i1 4 'I ^i k , r W^ 1 s i^ v, , - */S *'' ' , / * -f * * ,, , . . J 4, 1 . ^ -i. ' " _ ", L - ,' ' . fc ' i ' " ` 3 2,3,7,8 .that's'in that soil is going to pass out and not be' ,, J " '* ' 1* t" J * *% -<l * ^ / 4 ' stored and^therefor' wqn Vt;\be 'there long enough to cause any 5 ' problems? __ \ . .t *- */ V " w 6' 7^ , A .. Yes, sir/ '< *V "- . j *' > -1 1 1 ^i . -v '! J - -* \ p t ., ' '* k 4 l ,, 1 *' . 'j / . " J f -> , ' '* l * m 1 *, Q ; * So you have to"g e t ,i n ;your body,, accumulate it> these , 8 7,000 micrograms that you .are discussing for a 70-kilogram, - 7 9 iSO.-pound man', correct, sir?:. .. ,- 'Yes.sir. ; -V v1 0 .A ; / - \ v ',i. -- -- I I ' Q- ; So; actually this is vthe final figure, we are talking , ^ - > 1 2 : about, 4,200,000 parts per .billion, according to your now most 1 3 ; recent calculations, is that correct, sir?. 'r ". 14 . j 'A ;v Y e s , ' s i r . ` V . -,;i -. _ n . . i ' BMONNE, N.J. OTOOI `FORM ILJ 24 B * , J/ O' t JJ _ ./j kv , L ec * _ ' 1 5 . .Q;\ All right. Now/ br...Paget, a child, of course, say ^ 1 *uk ' - '* " 1 J " , J` . -f *> J ,, Vi " ' . > ' ^ ^ 'V ' 1 6 . a child that weighs one-third .the man *s weight, say'he weighs ( M OO , 17 ' k o lz \ 3! r 0 < O' .I8 l ^ -V 1 9 , O '. , u a 4 H, , rV t, <* U, &. , 20 , , 2 lt 50 pounds,o<which would of .course--- he .could take in one-third of that content, correct, .sir? J . ., j. A ^Yes, sir. L .- / v. . Q So a child would have tp^eat in a month1s time either, soil that* s contaminated, ..five grams of ..soil that's contaminated ^ *r. V ^^ T >J ~, '*-F , - , h^ *- i " ^- I T with 12,600, 000 parts per. billion in the five grams, of soil, ` 2 3 or wouid;havefo eat 15 grams`of soil .contaminated with 2 4 4,200,0.00 parts'./per billion;, is that correct,/sir? ^t ^ \ r j 1 7 4 ' * , -4 J ' ^ - ` ' '^ , ' K1 ' VJ , %` k '` r - > * '> 1 J> . ` ; t 1 ^ ,. ^ - ,y. J - * -* 4 "- * l **-'** * ,i v ^ -j ,- i , k n^ LjL ^> vr - t *` , . '2 41 ^* r *, ' , 1 t ` 1 A" ' No, sir, the child w,ould .eat lass, I presume, if the 2 child is smaller, smaller .dose would produce chloracne. .v ? \ ^V I -t * m L* Q Oh, why yes, I tripled it instead of dividing it, 3 correct. So h could eat .one .and a third grains of soil contam 4 inated with 4,200,000 parts,.per billion in order to get 5 6 chloracne? , , ....... A Well, strictly,/one*and two-thirds. 7 8 Q Well, one and two-thirds, isn't that correct. Doctor? 9 A Yes, sir. v 10 Q Now, do you know any. .product at Monsanto that could 11 be-- -or any other product .anywhere that would be capable of 12 contaminating soil with 4,200,000 parts per billion of 1 3 2,3,7,8 TCDD? . 1 4 A No, sir. 15 Q There isn't any? You've never read or heard of any 1 6 manufacturing process anywhere that could cause soil to be 1 7 thusly contaminated, isn't.that correct, sir? 1 8 A That's so, sir* 1 9 Q And therefore, no soil that a child is likely to play 20 in contaminated with 2,3,7,8 can cause chloracne, isn't that 21 correct, sir? - *....... 22 A By the absorption of. one .five gram, or one and two- 2 3 thirds gram dose, yes, sir. , 2 4 Q Now, if they eat more than-- -well, they would have to 41 . : r .- ;V `J; r- V ^/i'.v eat soil that contains'ra ,-thousand parts per billion, how many --_ `J' i'VVV-ij.'jj /*>-cyr\/' /,,'K$fr{l L}`t J'""' 1 * ` ':-;.,- '' 2 ^ g"raros *oJf,^Soil ;wJo""u-l-J-d'"T.t"hvfey;vihiVa,;v/e,ito.'eat, Dr. Paget/,co,ntami/n-ated ,3 ' with a. thousand parts per billion of 2,3,7,8 in order to get ' - f e S t V v R 4 . chloracne? t "/: . -V. 5 , ;.r*.A. ;''About 50 mill*igrains.v. ;iVv -^ -, . / -- ' /', - - 6" \ , Q 'v50vmiiligrams?,: /:.^ '_ ^ ; . 7/ t A /-:l Y e s , sir.. ^ / 8 ' ^ ./-Q .-1-thought five grama would--r-you. vjould, have to eat - 9; five grams containing 4/200,000 partis per billion? T ;10: ^ .A': I made ,the 3 aine mistake tjiat you made/ sir. 1 \ ;. 1.- 11.' divided andshould have multiplied/ s o let;me multiply instead " 12 ' .of-dividing; ` "r > ^ ' \7t ' ,1 3 ._": Q. 1, S u r e l y . : / ?-* 11 : L- ' ' ' ' 14 A L Well/ with reservations, about my arithmetic/ about -\ L ;-,,.ta*L'4* ^ = 15 ' 2lO;OT:amSi fh 'x,,*tiOut-*.*f ; 16 `/i,J '-'Q.- 210. grams?,, ,.'C/.v:r,^.", V' ` ;"",,'v ,.r0Oj*'*r^"`.- 17'..... ` A ' ; Yes/ sir.. \ > `+] -- ; , , ; y.1 \. .. '1`- 2' .''18 .- Q At a thousand? Now ,1 Doctor, your man has to" eat ' ; '.',uzmO*2i,'^rL 19, 'five grains of soil v;ithfour mil lion-- now'1 1ve reduced it to 'Ou*in*1 -Q ,( * 20 * 1/0 0 0 parts per million"-- ~per billion-- -I*ve reduced it by ^-ZBu.L 4- 21 4,200 parts. So wouldnVt you multiply by 4/000 times the five 'T 22 '; or the 4,000' times the one\and two-thirds grams? 'l ' *]23 , JA J.\ Well, :4,000 times one, yes. ^ I'm sorry, you're quite 24 '"right;, yes/ sir. 1 1 1j *' <1 -^r-^ V r/ '->ta " A ,, ''*_'***' ^ 1 "r -S .' :i,\fb- .1 }:' '%2y. ?35*"`.5r '' ',, i ,* * "5 . - , . `S ' , it . i^ l i ^ ;Jiri'>i* '>' X. j .* V A - ,i ; 63 f '^ 's -1r 'C1- J*1_ ^1 * i /*J , Tk ^T y] 1 , Q K Soi,)4i000 times ftwo/grama, you would eat 8,000 grains . *m'i S'l* ft:' ' : '?,'-$if' J*r` " - ` , - ;... V <- S- 7-^ >-^rV^-* .` 2 of;'snonill??1 t 11 - * * ' - -* J n ' 3 7 . !l* .LJH"A A zYea,: sir; uxi-v ` ;* 4 Q* A 50-pound child would have to have ate--- 5 A' Over,a period,.:yes. 7V , 6 -q 7 in a period 'o.a month?. 7 7 --7 'A '\-YesV ' :-'7'7 / / , ; 8' Q V. 8>000/grams of. soil,,-if,,there is 30"gram to the , , 9 ounce r how many pounds of dirt would "he have to eat to get 10 chlorache? ; .7/7'7 . 7 '/* .=- V, * . 7 7/ ' .11 A About 16 pounds , about eight kilograms/ab<?ut 16_ 12 pounds. 7 / .7 7,.-. '-- * . 1 3 : Q , So do you know of any child anywherethathas-- -have 14 you ever heard ,of a .child.eating .16 pounds of dirty a day? 1 5 7; A 7- No/,sir.: V/' -,v~- w - ' ^ ^ is : q;-7. And .have you ever heard-of any s o i l TM / 7. / 17 ` A-"1'/.`it is not a day, sir.. It is in a,month. , ^ ;, 1 8 :r Q In.a month's time? v v ^ ^`j_ "s'K ^-t - ** ''' tr .7'" : w L.- , 1 9 A ' X*m not sure that that's ;hot possible. ;It is eibout t- " , " kf - X- 20 a half a pound a day." _ '^ , 'J 7 , _~ ` - 1' > f c - * ' 21 7 Q : Have you ever heard .of any soil that's been contain!- j 1',' * ,X H J- " 1 o t* r 'h ' ^ .J 22 ^ nated as much as a thousand/parts per billion? 23,,i .' .A v No, .air., " 'J -7.'* -^.u. ` ' ''-'--' ^ * j r^j'1v 1J 'f * ' K 24 .Q ,So/then reallyall this7concern that we have had BAYONNE* N*J, > **** f r ? V * *' . -yv- y K -y>i\ * `;v.^ I.,.,.*,*~ > yf V * *1*fi j > JT- '1, 64 J about.t,,he.^d<i-ovxin^ sitev*s''-ji'nv M-\ists--ouriy wh.ereJt,h^ei^ry contamination - 4- l * 2 levels are many, many times^lower than ;a .thousand, parts per vii Vt ? 7*m 7 LS V. J f L rl' , ' I' l ^ ^ ^^ '; > 1 ' - 7" L* .V 1 million,' really all of that we've just been barking up the 3 wrong tree? haven't we, Dr.. Paget? ,/ 4- ;- . 1 think a lot of that concern.is misplaced, yes, sir. 5 6 V Q * And the CD's concern, you wouldn1t really be concerned about contamination:of 1,000 parts per billion in 7 8 the soil for children,., and the CDC's concern of one part per billion is way off base?-, :;-- . , .ky 9 .HT .A! .. Well, sir, of coursa in any estimationr o:could 11 include considrable safety-factors. We have-been talking 12-'- about a dose that would caus .chloracne. Q Dr. Paget, that thia chloracne is going to go away 13 a month' after the child .quits .eating dirt. .Wow, every child*** 14 - 15 and every child that I know ,of..gets .acne at sometimev'or ' J another ,in ,hia life that, lasts from sometimes for years.: I 16 had acne that lasted for; many .years, all through my teenage 17 18 years and into my manhood.. -Now/-that's not. unusual to have 1 9 acne? '1 .n 7 :-` y 7'' < . ' - ' 20 A ` . That's very coimnon, !yes. 7 --. : 21 J7, Q ' And if chloracne Is really nothing^ worse than .a case '-.//' - y ;.;y : .*; 7 7 ' _, ; ', ' 22 ofteenage acne, what's theconcera, Doctor? 2 3 A Well, sir, one doesn' t want-children to h a v e TM I * m 2 4 ` sure you, having been sufferer,;,you would agree ..that if you /- `7 * 7L""' *7 -L ;7.7.r . '7 ' BAYONNE, N.J, ' '. r V r' ; , ^ j ` .' H /' ? :r ', ' .J '-, ,* < - > , n".` n. .. 'V- 1 '- . .,- / . L J V. ` ' ' y'v'*, ' ' j ` " ' _ 1 could, prevent acn it wouldbe something -that 's very highly1 2 \* desirable. It is a dreadful diseaseV - ; 'V :r ` 3 V' Q .Is it highly desirable that they wouldcondemn an ' J " *r " -x' ^*' H h.' i J ^ ^ .rS< '-1 ' ' ,, ^' -4'' entire town .ancf move thepople.out just so the kids wouldn't .. 1 \` L . ' L`"'^ 'L v *'* o- J' ` 5 ' get' a. cse of acne, Doctor ? r ": ; v -* ,, ,-,^ ^ rH ^ `-,"*'"r.* -^ 1 ", ' "J - h ; 6 \ , ' -;MR.' HEINEMAN: Excse me. He is asking* this witness r1 ` `r' 1 ' ` r ' ` . i" l" J, ,,. (,LT i to speculate or give his ;opinion of propriety of the actions of 8, the EP or the'U*S., Government at TImes Beach, that*s irrele 9 vant and immaterial to this'lawsuit, and I object'to it.^ ' -io. . / / THE COURT; Overruled. -, I *think it is relevant and 11 - material. r-v '/ / / v `}u\.^ .'"V' ' " 12 ' j ; A Wei1, ;sir, if.yOti"include safety factor in th v 1 3 . calculations we have been doing and the^ safety factor of a . 1 , 4 ' thousand'fold might not belnappropriate for this, sort of RENGAD-CO:. BATO N N E, N*J. 07002^ FORM |L 24 B 1 5 !thing and X ithink you would agree that-- .> *;/v" 16" Q , Doctor, we are not even talking of a safety factor 17 , of thousand fold, because>the 'thousand is what I gave you , 18 ; hypothetically. You ar talking abcmt. soil that has to be ,, 19 ; rcontaminated to 4,200,000.parts per b Ilion. We are not talking; 20 r, about a safety factor of a -thousand, are we, Doctor?.' 21 / A ; We were, talking about that concentration being such' V 22 as would"be required to give chlorcne from one dose of five 23 . Sr. 1,k/- VH>r *i :'L ' !- 7 ` 1. - i ' s . v . ?. ' r r graLmfLpter^trty!;v^-.}f a-i-. ' c^ - - -' ' " -- . '. . _ `24 r *j f `'. * Q ^ - "v r ` *' XOr/a let ,of little^ dosestover a, period ' ` i ** c-r j i. i J ' i 1 i * \ 1 ,C ' f t h i -, /..* * - 1 v , ; * . * * . . l' .r V t . V - J V { Ci ` ' ` , >. . . 'l - - _ ' ''i I S ' - ^ 1 lr " - ^ > . ** t T ' .. ^ ` '' * L ` "" **Ti` r of month '* 1 -V t> i ' , L t < , ' .ft -x i v J' < . " K h y y* v, / . . f r \ & * - r * ` v . : ,* ;; V^ tV...- '\ / ?vj (?r*\ \ ; iv ' . ' -.. " w i' 7lV. ;ii*;V; J iVv. r : i;\ j,jJ r y j *:#*<:* , ^ V ^ - -vt V' - . . ' i v*~Z\i i K poy.- si ivv--..;' .. . c l. adding up to, five grams, ; i. t -.1-, .~ " -. \ : ' - ., ' 'J r - ^{V..- ; *' f;\ \*V' f,''>K wr ` 2 ' ; ; A ^ 'Amounting; to5*five grains; .*; : .^ , ", ,, . . -- 66 3 Q And, Doctor, we are hot. talking about a safety factor , ,, ^t , '*Lf ^ .' 4 here.. What you. are saying>to us as a representative of 5_ Monsanto-is, that there is .no concern about soil until it reaches - ' 6'v the level of 4,200,000 ;parts per billion in the soil? 7 ' A > No, I didn't say that, sir. , X said that that's the 8 dose which would surely give .chloracne, and if one has to--- ;. 9` .'i ' **Q 1' `*`i' `'No,J,4Vy*,ou^>sa"i1d *that:^-was, a *it1hv.r.es.'hold1 level. ' >' ".,-Yio.'u did<n''>t ^.r 10 '`say would surely give,`you said that is the threshold level for n chloracneV; isn't that correct, Dr. .Paget? 7 *;/ 12 . A -" Yes,' sir, that1s the ;dosa at which I was quite wrong 13 to say surely*". This was the dose; at which chloracne might be 14.;. expected; yes. , * ';/ - 15 ^ Q And in a .lot of people it would take a lot more than PENGAD CO., BAYONNE, N.J. 07002 FORM, IL 24 B 16 1that to;cause: chloracne;/and in .some people, according to" your 17 testimony.here before,- they are just, not going to get chloracne,. 18 no matter how much 2,3,7,8-TGDD they ingest? f 1.9' : MR. HEINEMAN: VObjection^ your .Honor, it mischaracter- 20 izes his t e s t i m o n y . ^ ;;*7 . 21 , 22 Thfi COURT* Overruled. . r.'V,.. . . ' A . I don't believe,I said that, and if I said that, 23, it wasthot correct. ';V; . r - 24 *' - Q ,. Well, you did suggest that-the chloracnogenic responsa 7'^V-* ^' "14'^ ''* 1^^^rr \i.,7' ' r> Vt *- ,t_4nf , f'. *' ",' r: ' ^ '^ mim " / >- ^ v^ . v" j* i,^ , v. *1*,*,`*.'*'' 1 4 , ir. ^j `1 >^' _* -r ff l*1 . 'V-vij?" .";v` 1i *j,'>,f-f '* A . -Vii 1 \i j --v ~ k.' .' (:\S 4>y 'li (V--- ^-.v. '-<heirtAS?1, *<!Cv'v:.V^..^ v**>^ f- T ^ 11 ' 1. varies from.person to person*. * . rf~*f/?5-Y' <:<* v.i tn.j-5{.^j)v-*rY fcT*M1-i`-v-,r": 2 A " "Yes,\ sir* 67 r Q .';And what you have given us was the threshold level 3 : ; . 1 ' - a- > ; '; ` ;T ` . 4 for the most;snsitive persny .didn't you, sir? ^ y "y ' '_ / ' / , ; -, y A ' Yes, sir* 5 '..' *>- . '( 6 Q . So there has got to i e -- .and since, there are some people that have chloracne"and ,some people that don't, fifty 7' 8 percent of the people there .didn't have chloracne. 1 Apparently, 9 r and froa the facts that we know as .far as their exposure- and ./ 10. what they took in, apparently half the people there didn't get 11 chloracne, andpfesuraably.they Were working in the same area,. p' -i r * . - -- r ` ' ' ,u I,. J , * ''<T " . 1 * - ,J< * '* ,\ l"- t t. t . - *~ ,, ' J * .J, J 12 you know, nothing to the contrary, isn't that correct. Dr._Paget^ 1 3 - A ..' That's correct* ,1 know nothing to the contrary. 14. Q So -tf>e threshold >dbae of A 200,000 for. a 70-kilo man I , V ,, . ,- ' - Lj ' 1 1 .. *,>' , -r . j . " 'j -, ' 15 eating five grams of dirt in ..a .period of a month would have to 1 6 be increasedfor thoselesB sensitive, correct,.sir? . 1 7 ; . - MR* -HEINEMAN: ...Objection,..your .Honor, that's not:the 1 8 threshold; dose*."He is. using th Wrong term again* 1 9 r THE COURT: vOverruled* * 20. Q Isn't it the threshold d^se, Dr. Paget? ' 21 A That 's under the. very ;special circumstances-- - 22 . 'Q , And, it is; a threshold do?. : 2 3 ' A- Of eating that five^grams of soil. 2 4 MR, 'HEINEMAN: In scd.1, Mr. :Carr, you get 7,000 ' ^ L L "r^ '^ - I 'l - . ' ^ f 1.^(P , ^ -' L PENGAD CO,. BAYONNE* N.J. 07002' k4 * ^ ", L 1 - '. ^ / ' _ 't , "v ,- '. ? ,,1 4 1 2 Q And, Doctor, this threshold level is for the most 3 sensitive human beings, isn't it,, sir? 4 A That's the 7,000 micrograms as the level at which 5 one might expect most sensitive people to get chloracne. 6 Q And these people that ingest that amount of soil 7 contaminated--- or any other product in the same five grams of 8 anything-- it doesn't have to be soil, would not get chloracne 9 and they wouldn't get anything else, and so they don't need to 10 worry about it? II A Ko, sir, because one likes to incorporate very large 12 safety factors. t .. 13 Q Well, why? The only thing they are going to get is 14 chloracne, isn't that correct, Dr* Paget? l- 15 A X wouldn't aay that .even,ordinary acne is something 16 that you could describe as-- ......... 17 Q Well, Doctor, isn't -the only thing that they are 18 going to get is chloracne? -,, , ..1.. 19 A That's what' X believe, yes, sir. . 20 Q And so, we have indeed then spent these years of 21 concern about 2,3,7,8 TCDD in exposure to children and to human 22 beings, really what we're .really talking about is acne, that's 23 all we are really talking about, that's our only concern, is ' T' 24 that correct, Dr. Paget? ... , . 1T1*/'?"> /*? y ^- ' -. `\- , v' r- ' ? **r1-/'1-. '? C 4,., t- i`V * V VV ` ;\V.'/'->-*v"i. *- - ,^ . f >* * - . ,' . ' v S ', ' / ; / V f 'v i' f*^ yki {'."i N P T ,j'v' -, ' .y;'* Uwi'jj >-:>/ :, - - " : : , . 69- J , A ,,No, sir, " - r \r; ' 2 .. Q - Do we hve other concerns because of exposure to 3 - 2>3,7,8V Doctor? ,^ , 4 A Well, until the situation is completely understood, 5 yes; of course one has tp.have concems. 6 Q Do we have concern that very low doses might accumu 7 J' late in a period of time, .doses ^ insignificantly small fraction 8 of 4,200,000;parts per billion,, just might cause cancer in some 9 . r' body, do we have that concern, Doctor?. , - . /, /` A / One has a concern ahout--- 10 /' 11 Q Doctor, do we. Have that concern /with relation ,to .r 12 r 2,3,7,8 TCDD? . - ` : /V V 1 3 \ ; A Until the factor.is ^studied,, yes, of course one has V - *-f */'," J- ,* * '*' *'rL. '- Lif >'' ' 1 f^' 'v''*.*f 1 4 ' that .concern, v . ... ... i - - 15 ^ L . Q Xt's b e e n studied for number of years,.and we still .,v '` ' ; r ./ ` ' 1 6 have that concern? J .. ./. * , !; ' 1 7 ' ' A\; ..Yes, sir, i 1 8 / . .N Q, .And should v/e not be,^concerned about very low doses 1 9 over a period of time causing neuropathies? ' 20 A . One shouldbeconcerned about the possibility.that it ?1 causes anything, including^things that we don't even know, about 22: ' Q. ' .Excuse me, Doctor, could you just direct your atten- A '*^ 4-s* *,J.'!,*-' _ * l`j^'1f'1*j.' * v j -" 1 - " ^ 2 3 tion to the ones that I am-talking about? ( Should,we have . 2 4 concern that very low doses over a period of time will cause jh'>v 'BAYONNE* N .J. ' - ''L*1* iS /'V S t/ / 1'v' j't t Tm**J T - i - f - s " ^ S~" i \ V)~ j f . V -'' ' * .r Yi^ y*. < f3,V' . . - -V ' ' ?*2 h * ' - ' <>' ^v- . i . v - y i v -. b . < . f- .1 u, *' -. - 1 peripheral n e u r o p a t h y , 2 t, A ; That depends .oh what ,yo\mean by very low doses'." - 3 Q `, - Any doses? s :>" . r - . . *. . . .' 4 ' -A Nq>jnot_ahy doses, v- ` - . r 5 - Q . /Doctor, haven't we established that the :EPA has. not . j 6 yet established a nq^effect-level f o r 2,3,7,8 exposure? * " ' _/ _ ' \- . fl" " 1t r J 1 k ,, ^' , ,,L Li ^ * *n j 1 ^u , ^ 1i " 7 A ' X doxi't know'that, air./Vtv J/ , `' r *: , ,. ' ' 8 / Q , . You don't know, that?, - - : / . 9 A. - * lNo , I don't. .* , 1 0 Q Npw, Doctor# would you assume that-it's been testi 1 1 /r fied here by .toxicologists t h a t TM you are a toxicologist, 1 2 aren't you,./sir? ' . ' . :. . . ,, '- , v v/ 1 3 A, v -Yes# sir. . \ .......................... * 1 4 . Q ' Don't you keep-up o n w h a t the EPA pronounces? 1 5 vi,/ <A Well, I don't know that .they have not established an/ 1 6 .effect level. I know that they haven't established a maximum 1 7 \ safe -level. ^ v' * - . V '>* , " 1 8 Q Well,' have they established a minimum safe level? 1 9 t - , I don't think they ever d o t h a t for anything;' 2 0 Q Well, the question is have -they established a no 2 1 effect level that you know .of, Dr . .Paget? . \ 2 2 A- No, sir. ` .k< 2 3 - Q And, Doctor, they are not willing to.say that any '2 4 dose o f 2 , 3 ,7,8 TCDD, ho,matter hoy small, may hot have effects BAYONNE, 'N,J, ' ' .tx,%-i---VW'T t.*> ' < .iiliU'* i < f J f ,4s ' - - . jS ' .1 V,^-> K-. . > .f ' ,L. - > -*, ,. '^*`l.'y^7?..* *- 'k '* -k' ' rj,"V`-,^'7 i ' ' i ` A.-..'7 ' . '. -, . ' ,' O, '. 1 upon man, isn't that correct, sir? .1/ . 2 - a 7 I don*t know;that, air, no. , -. 3 Q You .don't know that,} Dr ,,Paget? 4 A- -'No/ sir/. " v 5 . Q . Weil, have they announced .a ,,level of which it is . 6 safe? , > - ; '7 7 ;/. / ;T / : '-? / - . 7 A No, sir, and that's jdifferont. . ' 8 ,Q . All right. And, Doctor, .they can measure down to the 9 million parts per billion, ,can't they, sir? They havevthe .*L '1 ,J ^1 t- 'V11-* J,lnf'\ J t, "* < 10 capacity to do these-same calculations.that you~do? ri . ,,A -- ''Oh/ yes, sir*'V*- : ` ^ ...... ../ ' ; 12 / Q And, Doctor, shouldn't we be concerned then about 1 3 very low doses causing loss of libido, for instance, in man? 'H ,, J 1S 'A,'"-/;"I don't know,''sir. w ''V. h ,, 7 ' ,,- ' ^> Q My question is^ not whether you know, my question is ,,16 "shouldn't we. have concern .about .that?. 1 7 . r MR.-HElNEMANs -Well,, I .object to. it. If he doesn' t ... - 1 8 know, how can he- answer the .question? t L 19 THE COURT s Overruled., .y ` . ; : 2 0 A - It;depends on what?you mean by^very. low doses. 2 1 Q ; Low.dose is.a-lot, lot, thousands and thousands of -2 2 times smaller than 4,200,000 parts?per: billion? 2 3 -.A ' That's not a dose, air. y ,, 2 4 Q .., It t-is`if you eat in >five ,grams of soil,. Dr. .Paget. ,, " 1- '-j(-t-.v. jpi't ^ , ` V' pt - fc.L. i ? -,il i-Ki->V\ vt r -iK*v - . . v.ik y-J^.:,:f-vv iV.Vv t`3I-iW.C. , ,, 7 ,;y..'`( \ 'k V;- 6ATONNE. NjJ,  - U>\ ! i,- , ... ' , . ' . . 72 1 A That's the. dose we ^xjpect. might very well cause . ` - ' ' 2 , , chloracneFs so ;one Would wa n t , to have a very large safety ` 3 measure between that dose .and-:-- '- c J4 Q . Doctor, we are hot now,,talking about-- r .. '' ' . 5 ^6 17 r:..-MR.' HEINEMAN: - May .he answer, the question, your u ^ 'y - 4 1- , \ t 1i "t '_ "' 4 'J *_ ` +.* Honor? ' L` ' - " ,; c MR* CARR: If he answered the question ! asked, .1 ; wouldn*t' ndnd*. 8 ; ' \i > ,r . . ' 9 . M R . . HEINEMAN s- .1 Would, like ..a .little courtesy in the JO Courtroom* '' -; *r * i r tTHE COURT; Overruled, xt'was not responsive*. ' 12 r `''MR*.HEINEMAN; *i think it was responsive. - A . Could you repeat . the question, please? / 1 i4 , MR* . CARR; 1 1d like *the Court to instruct the jury , 7 .* - *. ij.t is - j that they should disregard what Mr ..Heineraah just said and did* rf*t- ` 16 They, should hot be influenced by^comments that counsel makes > O 3 iV 1 7 that are completely improper,to ^ Court that's making its; k st BAYONNE.iN.J. ,,07001 K'. i >8,; W. j z P |' 19 , a^ `O N : . ' < o 3 11U 20 ',, ' ' 2 1 ruling, :ahd I would ask,.the juryio disregard what he just said THE `COURT: The jury* is so .instructed* When I make a .:ruling', t...h.at sta.'T`nd> s.. ..v` .L' , `- r.._ ( ,1 _,, MR.;'HEINEMANsp :Your JHonor, .with jay respect to the 22 - - 23 Court--- . 'v-,' . , ; t v..' f* -MR* CARR; Your Honor, I ..suggest it is not respectful 2 4 i to the-Court for. Him to say what he .said* ; ; ; ^?VP * - 1 `k;:\v `f-<1-'j.',i?V- J !;.r"*^i$t*,i`;J- l .' * '.'1 :j 'T , v^- . L v 't'- ! v -c^XSi v . V " v `.V' ' :.. \ A*'-*1.? . . . &X&If;X^ i '' r * .si *T ' J.K 73 ,1 -/ MR. HEINEMAN: *'YourHonory .it was respectful.tothe 2 ; Court. I'believe X havea.right--- I am certainly not question -3 ing this Court's rulings with .respect'to the evidence in the 4- case. ; v' ;v< ~ 5 ` = -MR. CARR: What did you.j.ust do if you didn't questio^i 6 his'ruling? . / . . . . . `v - L,,.- t-IJ T' 1- THE COURT: Mr.Heineman* the point is that the time 8, to express,your opinion as.-to a ruling is before'it is made. 9 1when the point is being'argued .before/the ruling is made.., I JO would assume if you made^the.objection .that your opinion is, ll ,however it is expressed in the objection, it does not need to - ,12.', be. repeated; after the ruling .has,,been made," which, is what you . 13 did'inLthis:particular case: I'd .let it go before, but counsel : 14 did properly, note it, and i 'am instructing the. jury to disregard l .r/ 1* L v , . , 1 " ' * t - 15 it. ; ... . : 16 'V`/`\ / ''/^`HEXNEMRNi V^ery i*ell,:.sir. ' ;v V " ` / 17 "THE COURT: *Please read the question back. i. 18 ,, .19 . i'* ; (The previous question was read by the --j * '' ' ^ Court Reporter:,) \ ,L - - 1 20 BY MR. CARRr ' ^ ; . .< ^ '/ ' / ' 21 ^ Q Doctor, have you'ever at.Monsanto or anybody that'you .22 know, of, have you ever'advised:the EPA or the Center for 23 DiseasevControl or OSHA 'when .they came to .the plant that they .24 are;way off .base in their ,concern about human and worker' safetyf .- i,.v-f.; i>: i,>/, ' - V .-Cl J ^ -r v- 7 . - v -" ' >N| >' *V S ' I , . '/"? .. . . - S' i,, .. J ' . >' * . ..... ' -PENGAD CO., BAYONNE. N.j'. OTOOl 74 H * V' Y'' tiK 1 " M R . HEINEMAN:.7 Excuse :m e , your Honor. May ,1 object? . L J^ i . v-.' ' , " t -v.; - - ' \ ` .. ,, .... L ' *.. , l 1.`. > - '" v ,-'<t., ~lr, v > - " V - * - *'' 2 He is' changing the^ question/and abandoning the question that ha 7 '*- r`- -V' . , V' y., '*' .. 7:./^ '*/: 7y. ,\ -fr. ' ' % _7. 3 just asked;^ , -;.717;;v :7- 7 * 7. ,\ / X 7 ' ,7 . f *7* W " /,7 '\`y - ' `/J'V - \ 7/ 4 ' L. THE; COURT: I a s s u m e i f h e h a s n ' t followed it up he - 5, 6 7; " 8 f ',, j /9 '' 10 li i1sv - abandoning' t *'r the question;1 c : 1 l- ^ \ : - ,/ ;v.7 , ; *1 ,, 1 1 r * T* ^ - k ** . ' *J 1 * ' > *1 *' i ' ;'* :MR.-iiEINEMAN: J'He is hot asking the witness to^ answer , ,-, ij , *"1 --.L '' r , ,,V *, 1 '' 17' < t ., > , r. 1.- : ; 1 `. h that question? All. right; > - ^ -j.y. 7r .,i y / . ; " r,'-t ,' " ' ' > ... -, J r, ^ ^ , l- . 1 - L. - ; - , r ' ;i' ' v `` ; < V- t'j. . , r- L L-t ; ; ,'7; , THE COURT: Go ahead. > ;/7; ` * v ,, > ^ - - ,^ A .;:No,. sir.;. I have'hever advised the EPA about, their : \ J '? /y _r;' >^y *i'j'\^ '- ^ +\> * '** ,./ v-y,f.''r-\s*i'~yt**' - r'`'} wv ^^ Ly " ^--'"i-j u\ concern^ no, -no(,,sir. ' ':`v .^'-7 `"j 7 ^0 Well,- do you know if.,Monsanto!has? * ;,' v-1 / ^ , -f ' L 12 ,s A .I don't know, sir, no. y... ' . 13 Q -. Do'you know- if--well,- you know,. Doctor-,; that;"there , 1 4 are immense/sums of money being spent relative; to the dioxin/ -T , 1 5 , problem, you are aware ofthat? FORI 1 6 /' -*J`A.,;.'.Yes,,:sir. \ - 7. ;,. 1 7 *, 7 Q And you are, aware of the Agent, Orange case.involving s.,; //`/--/ . '/ Si*-- / ^ ` '/;/'1 1;-"J- 1 18 million^, of dollars, and you are aware- of. the Times Beach. V J9 >T 20 cleanup and Minker-Stout Cleanup costing millions; of/dollars? You;are-awre/of all .thoser-' /7 '/";7 / - 21 *:*22 'r 'MR'.' HENEMAN: Your Honor,pbjct tq this .7 ,Xt is `V"r " 2f 24 ''and1-!'(o".bTjT:/e-lcVt77Vt:o/!`'i'/;t>.;;.-=,y',1r^-*%7,vf->>-'vO-,-;'-'^C1*''j',''?7,1*iX*'**->^f"i2TV*. L ,7%-1^ '^^ V y^` J^'!1.m,\' W? -*V**> y,' >-iVAy\;\%[K'/?/'-c`/.'fry \ Ul ^ \ ' \ W . 'V--5V `- 1 ' Vj v 75 1^ `s 1 THE rCOURT: Overruled, X think it's properly;a subject 2' of;the question \ \ - ,X // >X- .-// X :. ' X *( . 3 ; A ;Well, it depends what you mean by aware, sir. Some 4 ., of these I have the same, awareness ofvany reader of the news-, '5 / paper has, and that's all . - V -X.. _ - ^^ 1., ' ^ x^ Si 6 ; Q Well, that's enough., Monsanto presumably, you among 7 others read the newspapers, don't you, sir? 1 . \ j 8- A,\ Yes, sir^ - - \.v' .1.. -X , . 9 * \ Q X And youknowwhat's going On here a Have you ever, JO/ you'at Monsanto during the .period of time that you were on n this case, and a toxicologist, did/youlever advise---well, OSHA, 12 was. there, /OSHA was there-during the time you were a toxicolo .13 14 ; gist, suid they made a report^during the time yourwere a toxi- f iH ` ', L >, - 1 - 1- . \ -* - ' . J r ^,, \ - X- 1 <. J - ,V ' '.\T h 1, h *- s j -- ' j ,` * - -0 ^ *" - * ^ -j / * t, * h * cologist Working for the Krummrich manufacturing process. Did 15 " you/tell OSHA, well,.that's only 150, only .150 or 120 parts, per 16 billion in .that soil,; And.you don't need to rope off that. 17 ^ ,space there, those workersaren't going to get down there and o. SI.'" ; -'V- X, 18 l /eat five grams, of soil; a/month,, .and- even if' they did, it's only BAYONNE, 19 got. 150 parts per billionof 2,3,7,8 in it? Did-you ever tell 20 OSHA they .were concerned about nothing? - XXX 21 : MR.'Vh e i n e MAN: 'Your .Honor/ I'll object. The witness 22 has already testified that he was .not involved in the OSHA , 23` situation a t 'fill . X , L X; - \X 24 . `/ ^ XXv /fX-X/x - X - ' ,; 'IT&HrEvc CjO;'jU,,RTt:;t.Oivve,.arrj-usled.i ,!. .' X- 1 / X/LX '^ X X ri'. ; .- - * ` . '- X' ^ , < v ? \ \ f: % f t ~ X X X : .Vi X V X 4 i ;X , . ' ,t, ?I 76 -1 A ,, NoV. six.-1,J /, %' . * - L . - i_ Q; Doctor, you did have..a meeting in which you .discussed -y the 2,4 dichlorophenol being produced and marketed at the ' Monsanto plant, didn't you,:-sir? - ; 4 r 5 , A I'm sorry, sir, there may, as well have been such a . 6. meeting, yes.7 .. L `1 .r' 1r Q : r ,Let me hand you a letter .that we received yesterday ' 7 8f' afternoon at'1:30. ' .: , .- . ; ; r: ? (Plaintiffs1 Exhibit 1275. was marked,for 10 ,,/! . . ^.- ,^ ^' ; identificJat'ion^)' ^' ^''1-i ` ^ - ', 1 c* 11 Q . I'm handing you; what'-s been marked Plaintiffs' t 1 2 Exhibit11275rand ask you,to .look at, that and see if you. don11 13 recognize that as involving .you and where you made an evaluation 1 4 You recognize that as a: memo involving you? 15 ->jf *l A , Yes,: sir. ; ' '' v -,1 *r ' 16 , , MR^,CARR: I offer' 1275 iiito:evidence; if it pleases 1 7 - ^the Court. ,, V '~N. *--*>. .. 18.. fk , ^ (Plaintiffs': Exhibit 1275- was offered;' ' . -- 1 9 into evidence.). 20 ' THE COURT: .Any;objection? I J'/ - 2 1 , MR. HElNEMANs Your _Honor,we have previously 2 2 objected in this case to.any"information relating to 2,4 di chlorophenol as not ,,being relevant vto the merits of the issues 2 3 : . i u .ti-v.- ' i i i. I'-'l . - - *' * 0 .T ' i ( 'V *i - i - \ ' 2 4 L in this^case.; ;We would,-continue.Jthat objection with, respect S ,, ./< : I `f \ v i;-S ; .t.'/ 5vV.- -J-- v 'v V:.f*v y>- ;^ 't i *- ;* ^ PENGAD.CO,. BAYONNE, N.J.: 07001 1 to this particular document# and of course we have previously 2 objected on other grounds.which the Court has ruled on, which 3 is why Mr, Carr got the letter yesterday afternoon. 4 THE COURT: Fine, okay. .It is admitted over 5 objection. Gentlemen, could.I .see you at the bench for just a 6 minute, please? ..... 7 (Plaintiffs' Exhibit 1275. was admitted 8 into evidence.k .. . 9 (The following ,,proceedings were held at JO the bench.) - * < 11 THE COURT: Before we get into this, it is close to 12 noon. I want to break now. ..Before that, I want to tell you. 1 3 You submitted something in camera yesterday. One letter, a 14 memorandum or however you ..characterize it-- IS MR. HEINEMAN: < Yes, X think that's right. 1 6 THE COURT: I want you to: produce that except for the 17 part on legal fees, the footnote on legal fees. You can white 18 that out if you want, but<the rest of it has to be produced. 19 MR. HEINEMAN: The whole thing, you mean? 20 THE COURT: There ia one .section on legal fees, have 21 you seen the document? . 22 MR. HEINEMAN: I think live got a copy. I've only 231 looked- `at it very;casually.. - ; 24 THE COURT: Okay. Eor the record, I want you to i ' , . } 78 1 produce all of it except the .part on legal fees.. If you don't 2 understand which parts Irmean, I will take you in Chambers and 3 show you the part. 4 MR. HEINEMAN: -Would you .please? 5 THE COURT: Okay. 'And we will break for lunch at 6 this time and I want it done by 1:30. 7 MR. HEINEMAN i That',s no problem. 8 (The following proceedings were held in 9 open Court.) .* 10 THE COURT: Ladies and gentlemen, we are going to 11 break for :lunch at this time.. The admonishments that X .gave 12 you earlier would apply during this break also, and we will 1 3 resume at 1:30. Thank you for your attention and cooperation. 1 4 The Court is in recess for lunch. 1 5 (At this time Court was in recess for lunch.) 1 6 (The following proceedings were held in Chambers ) 1 7 THE COURT: Okay, what are we doing back here? 1 8 MR. HEINEMAN: The thing .1 talked to you about right 1 9 before lunch, about making -the record. 20 THE COURT: Right. We will have to do that. That, 21 will just take a minute. ... 22 MR..HEINEMAN: -The. Judge;, the Court has ordered that 2 3 we turn oyer to Mr. Carr. a portion, or turn over the document, 2 4 which was submitted,forthe Court's review in camera on Friday ; BAYONNE, N.J, 1 with certain portions deleted* We would ask before we turn 2 this over to the Court, obviously, we have taken the position that this information besides being privileged is totally 3 irrelevant and not calculated to lead to the discovery of 4 admissible evidence which .1 am assuming the Court has already 5 6 considered in making its. ruling. THE COURT: Right. ,, 7 8 MR. HEINEMAN: '.We would ask ..the Court at this time 9 to stay its Order to turn .this over and to certify this 10 question for appeal so that we .might be able to take it up 11 before this information is .disclosed to the attorneys for the 12 Plaintiffs - ..> .... . 1 3 THE COURT: Do you have anything you wish to say, 1 4 Mr. Carr? > 1 5 MR. CARR: Yes, your Honor. They could have taken 1 6 that position a year ago. if they wanted to. We're very close, 1 7 hopefully, just a few days .away from resting. And there is no 1 8 time to delay the trial of .this case while they take that up 1 9 on appeal. 20 THE COURT: Anything else you want to say? 21 MR. HEINEMAN: -No, your Honor. This document was not 22 responsive'to any other'request.of tMr. Carr's other than the ,': ;>L i 1: ."/ -/ ' ' .1\^ 2 3 most recent' occasion when"the Court ordered us to produce 2 4 anything that had the word ,dioxin in it. It was subject to 1. 1+. , 80 that Order that this document was turned up, and it's clearly .1 2' not.related 7, j 'tTo*a*n"y- ^of.t^he' .oth*e.r0 r1 e,qr'uests that Mr;^"Carr fhas 77 3 ' made. , Therefore, it's, only .very recently that it's turned up, 'V , ' * 1 it" % ^ fairly recently that it* "-been responsive to any ordered. 4 5 ' production. And therefore,. *w@ .can't help, the shortness of . 6' . time. We're stuck.with it just as everyone else is, and we still make the request to .the Court..; 'J t7 8 ... THEi.COURTS I am denying the request. First of all, - 9 ' I think it has been covered Tin .prior requests. Number two, X 10 think, it is relevant arid^material, and in fact is probably 11 relevant and material t o t h e mattersin the section.of the 'i 12 trial that we are in at this .time. .. And you could! have taken 1 3 this position on this* document !a .long .time before. I don *t 1 4 think that there is any substantial compelling or just reason 1 5 , to delay "enforcement of this*. .1 .am ordering you to turn it 1 6 . over,.andvl am denying your request for a stay to allow you to ' 1 7 . appeal to the/Appellate Court on it. Okay? : 77 18' //> : LMR. HEINEMAN i .That\s it.,. ' J S 1 9 . (The following ^proceedings were held 20 '/ ^.v in open Court.! v, 7 '^- 7 / 7 7 t\ 7 ' ;-7yV:.7'* " ^ 7 7 7 J ' 2 1 - 7- MR. CARR: I need ta pasa .Exhibit 1275 to the jury . 2 2 at this time;. ;7 :vi / O v U . \ > S j t*r, -- 23 )./ .T**HEr )..COURTS.Fine.,-. if-' , w- J"'k- ^7 ;t,.-*'} -'7 y V< , J 2 4 by m r . c a rr :>: ' l >.? ... ^ ' , 7 ,' ' ' / 7 y : /77-- ' PENGAD* CO.. 'BAYONNE, N;J. 07002 1 Q Doctor, this Exhibit deals with, as we started to get 2 into before lunch, a meeting that was held on the 22nd-- 3 apparently on the 11th of May, 1979, and again on the 22nd of 4 May, 1979, is that correct, sir? 5 A Yes, sir* 6 Q And you were one of .the participants at either one 7 or both of these meetings, is that correct, sir? 8 A Yes, sir. ,, 9 Q And you were asked to give your judgment to evaluate 10 the 2,4,6 trichlorophenol that is present in many of the 11 chlorinated phenols produced by Monsanto, isn't that correct, 12 sir? 13 A Yes, sir. -' 1 4 Q And you, of course,knew that the 2,4,6 trichloro 1 5 phenol is also present and was present in the orthochlorophenol 1 6 crude that was manufactured -in this case-:-- 17 A I don't know. .. * 1 8 Q You don't know that?.. 1 9 A No. - ,. , 20 Q Well, you do know that there was tricholorophenols in 21 that product, don't you,* sir? 22 A , : X believe there, were, other chlorophenols, sir. I 2 3 don't know which ones were .present; no. 2 4 0 Well, there is an Exhibit in evidence that indicates J /' ' t ..1 7 -1 Ll 82 */. - *'/' \ . ,v\- .-u \ . ;* 11 1 that trichiorophenols were present.in the OCP tank car. Would 2 you accept' that, please, sir?u.,' ;. 3 /A" 'Yes, sir.. - :rJ-7 : " 4 . Q -For the purpose of this.' And the.2,4,6 trichloro- 5 phenol or any trichlorophenol,for that matter would be 6 considered an impurity, wouldn't it, in the product you are 7 putting out? .1.. '' / 1 v. 'V ; A- Yes, ,sir. " ^7 -` ! ? ; Q And you. of course also;, now back in the trichloro- 10 . .phenols, there can be tetrachlorodibenzo-p-dioxins, you know 1 1 that, don't you, sir? ^. ; 1 2 A rI believe that; yes, sir. :-t- ,V 1 3 ^ Q ; And the' 2,4 dichlorophenol that's being manufactured, 1 4 of course,' is being sold to, customers .and it contains ;leveis 1 5 of 2,'4,6 trichlorophenol and also contains levels-of dioxin at 16 that time; You knew that, ,did you not, sir? 1 7 A X,didn't know the levels of dioxin, no, sir.. 1 8 Q. Well* I didn't ask you if ypu knew the levels of; 19 dioxin. You,knew it did contain levels of dioxin;, didn't you? 20, r , .A '..Yes,'.sir. , { 7' ` 1 - 21. Q And at that point in vtime^, you of- course had in your /: n ;7? tx y H t.v -> ., 22' r K '-- !k>-'v-'. , J ` n mind thejleyels of contamination that would have to be 2,3,7,8 23 TCDD before^/you;would consider it; something that could cause 2 4 ' - i i S M i #'r 1 ,7. ; V chloracne, you had that in your mind at that time, did you not, BAYONNE. N.J, *i , Kj'7 * s-.';v. .*, *v'. i'j* _ , '1v.J'i `y `1` \ ^' .. *'{'/ ' j' ,',y \ ' _ ,T~ : .-r * 1 sir? * '-i'., L;- .,' '>`-V -J` ` 2 A v Yes, sir. ` ' * ,. ` ' ' ;-. . \, 3 ' Q And you were asked -to. give an opinion as to whether 4 or not a hazard existed relative to the 2,4 dichlorophenol that ,1 ` !^T '2+ *'' ^ 1 Hr ' '' "O. ' ' ^ ^ 1v ^ - Lc j ^ ;t * 5 was being sold, were ,you hot, sir? -- 6 ' A : J'Yes, sir... -7 . 8 matter? MR. HEINEMAK: /Objection.; Oh, you mean in this J -' -< ' ^ "I.J;-` . ., ' 1 r'" 1- 9 " MR. CARR: Yes. -V ;/ '/ '' ' 10 , "MR. HEINEMAK: All right.. I thought you meant back ii in 179 ,''it-;..'* - ,.,a " '*'- ./ ! . /; . 12 ..MR. -CARR: This was J.n *79, counsel; This meeting" v 13 was in-May of 179, . : ^ ^,. - . ^ 14 :MR. HBINEMANs .Well* I thought you meant February.. ,. . ' ,,' *. y. ,. .^ -* " l'l- 15 BY MR. GARR ' /; , ,, .- J / \% 16 Q:\ You were asked to give an.opinion at that time as to 17 whether or not the impurities.in the 2,4 dichlorophenol was 18 / being manufactured and sold to your customers were of a nature 19 , as to pose a "substantial; risk of injury to the health of the; 1 _ j ^L A 1* 20 > ultimate- users _or the environmentisn't that correct, sir? * \yiWr~:9A'S ,`r>.t* . J v ; /. 21 _ 'An'yl- 1*i-VVuiO^.y-`;'V.3'Jir-w,^.f*j? .^''.\.Z..'^*i..J-\rrv- f^`1-V-i't-j'*-.* . * -j->. *" .1.' -' 22 ; / Q .C' Would you direct yo\ir ^attention to the last paragraph 23 ' on this document. Page 1275, .last paragraph on the. first page? ' ''a.-, 24. A- 0resv'sir^ '^'r [ ; * .: ; - ; ri '"i ' '--- --At- ' ^ v "- f-'i` F .'` J' .,;lII' k'.J-.'* '1* ' -- 1 BiYONNE,'N.J. 07001 ^ FORM IL 2IB 84 1 Q Are you discussing there whether or not 2 , 4 dichloro- 2'-- phenol as being in produced and marketed represents a substantial 3 risk to*v-^- ^ 4t A ,n'A ** That's what the meeting was about. That's hot what ` *-r, '* , . .V' --_/ V * ' ; 5 X was asked to evaluate.:. V - f . ^ ;. 6 Q You were asked only 'to evaluate only j&e 2 f4 #6 tri- 7 chlorophanol?; :A 8 A X was asked to-evaluate just specifically an. NCI 9 r bioassay report on the carcinogenicity ,of the material on the ` " - ,' 1 r / --,. -V - ` i . , r- 10 ' 2,4,6.' \i`-\ "'V' kr ` ` 11i *->- vv' . , " r ' 1 1 Q / Well# did you offerau, opinion then on, just the NCI 12 ./ bioassay study dealing with 2,4,6 trichlorophenol? 7 ^1 3 * A _ V/.' ' \ -ky' <s ' .;That^s what;I;was asked t o ,evaluate# yes, sir. 1 4 . Q - \ And you did not evaluate,*any other impurity or the * 15 risk .that might b e ,associated with;other contaminants in the 1 6 - 2>4 dichlozrophenol other than the 2,4,6 tripchlorophenol . " ' < ^ - ^ \- r ^r s .1 "' `*' ' ' ^*x ' 1 , "r * - i * r 17 -contaminant?;/" A ' ' L\-`v'V 18 ,, A 7 No, sir, that|k whatvl was asked to evaluate ';:' 1 9 Well; did anybody at that meeting, did y o u rnot 20 discuss -jthe fact that dioxins /are 'known to be in the 2,4 di- 1 ---* itLV* *j,l ;\V <,v <y ' ^^ 21 chlorophenol when you all .determined whether you should or 22 - XJ 23 Lr - , - , M' , ,c should not notify,, th EPA .as:,to th existence or nonexistence - Vi-L T* ! " - -- .' of a- substantial risk? * * 2 4 I didnt> :no>' sir. BAVONNE. N.J. i. >t -/* v; ^ -xViJv'7. ' ' c/':i * V A I Q Was i t e v e n d i s c u s s e d a t .th o s e m e e tin g s ? 2 A I can't recall, no, ,sir. 3 Q Or Paget, if you all knew dioxins were in 2,4 di- 4 cholorophenol, you all knew that, did you not, sir? 5 A l a m not sure what was known at that time, sir, in 6 Hay I certainly wouldn't have known what specific dioxins 7 were there 8 Q . Well, you would have.known that it contained the 9 tetradioxins that elute at the same retention time as 2,3,7,8 10 TCDD? 11 A I'm not sure whether that was known or not, sir. 12 Q Well, please accept My word ,for it that it was not 13 known, and there are existing Exhibits in evidence that 1 4 reflect that. ^^ 1 5 A If you say so,-yes, .sir , 1 6 Q And was it-- -you had to know that in order to give 1 7 an opinion as to whether or not a hazard exists? . 1 8 A Sir, I was not asked to give an opinion as to whether 19 a hazard existed, but only to evaluate-- 20 Q r `Well, /didn*'t'you---what did you do then just at that kv^f 21 meeting, ignore the fact, that TCDD's and other dioxins were in . '^ .. ff * u"* 1 i1" * fV 22 2,4 dichlorophenol? <` C 23 A I don1t .know.what other people did, but my participa- 2 4 tion in that meeting was limited to evaluating the NCI bioassay - i 1 I report 2 Q Vie11, Doctor, you know from your experience and 3 knowledge as a toxicologist-that .2,3,7,8 TCDD is thousands and 4 thousands of times more toxic .than 2,4,6 trichlorophenol, you 5 know that, don't you, sir? 6 A I don't know about thousands and thousands. X know 7 it is more toxic, yes, sir., .* , 8 Q Doctor, wouldn't the,fact that .the 2,4 dichlorophenol 9 that is being manufactured,by Monsanto contains more than just 10 2,4,6 trichlorophenol as an impurity, that it also contains 11 tetradioxins that elute the same way as 2,3,7,8 TCDD elutes, 12 the same retention time, don't .you consider that that presence 1 3 of the tetras in that 2,4 .dichlorophenol poses a greater threat 1 4 to the ultimate user, to the house of the user or the environ* 1 5 ment than the possible effects of 2,4,6 trichlorophenol? 16 A . X don't know what the concentrations were, sir. This 1 7 meeting was to consider the 2,4,6 1 8 Q There were chemists .at that meeting; there was J. D. 1 9 Wilson He was there, he .is .an/organic chemist Did you V'/: 20 inquirer of Mr. ,Wilson> Dr. .Wilson, if any chemists as well v/ere 21 asked to;determine whether .or. not we should notify the EPA 22 about 2,4 dichlorophenol, .are .there possibly TCDD's in this 2 3 that we should consider;- did :you ask .that. Dr. Paget? 2 4 A No, s ir ` 1 Q` D id an y b o d y a s k t h a t a t / t h a t m e e tin g ? 2 A I don't recollect whether, they did or not, sir. 3 Q . Dr. Paget, at this point .in time you were surely 4 aware of the program that was being .undertaken, it had been under way since March, at least, to determine the TCDD content 5 6 of the various products,, and .you,had reports by this time, a 7 number of reports, and you are .taking .it up to the Biohazard 8 Committee. -Surely at that meeting you .were aware of the fact 9 that there; could be something in your .2,4 dichlorophenol that 10 could be of/a greater hazard .-to the .health of the people than 11 just 2,4,6 trichlorophenol, .surely you were aware of that, were 12 you, sir? v.v ., 1 3 A I don't know, .sir. *1 don't know what was discussed 1 4 other than the evaluation .of this '2,4,6 trichlorophenol.from 1 5 the NCI which was what the meeting was called to discuss. 1 6 Q . Now, Doctor, there was further mentioned in this 1 7 memo that in order to prevent possible, misuse of the product 18 by a customer, it is recommended that .the responsible business 1 9 group send1abetter* to/its customers for this product referring i3./ j ///...- .t^/ * ' - *t*'-l^v.- ^ 1 20 to the NCX bioassay describing the.present 2,4,6 trichloro- >. ' *'s *' v , j i -- j ' * -- 21 phenol content/of .t^er,product,"-aihd .the plans which are under 22 way to improve the purity ..of the product. Now, do you know * vf -* * ' r \ *1 llJ / ii.j."'j f t * J f ^ i `* ' i3 . 'i 2 3 whether or not the customers -were sent such a letter? 2 4 \ A No, I. d o n 't, s i r ; - , 1 Q And if such a letter .were sent, do you know whether 2 or not they discussed and told .the .customers that there is more than just 2,4,6 trichlorophenol in this product, there is in 3 addition, tetrachlorodibenzo-.p-dioxins in this product, do you 4 know whether or not that was ever.done? . 5 6 A No, sir. *, 7 Q Now, Doctor, did you .have meetings, at Monsanto in - 8 which you discussed with, others your.opinions as to the amount 9 of 2,3,7,8 TODD that would .be necessary to ingest before one 10 would get a case of chloracne, was that discussed by you and 11 others? . 12 A At this meeting, sir? 1 3 Q . Not at that meeting,, at any meeting? 1 4 A I'm'sure it was, yes, sir,. 1 5 Q And all of the. actions that were taken by the-- or 1 6 the actions that were takenby Monsanto that you know of, they 17 had in mind this premise of yours as to the toxicity of dioxin? 1 8 .'-MR;.HEINEMAN: .L e t m e object to the form of the 1 9 question calling for sheer speculation. . 20 ^TIIS COURT: Overruled.:' .' 21 Q Do you know that, Dr.. Paget? 22 A ::No , sirV I don' t know that . 2 3 Q You don't know,what t was or was not? 24 A No, s i r . J i Q You do know that you expressed that opinion? 2 A I expressed what opinion? I'm sorry, could you say 3 ,what opinion you assume X -expressed? 4 Q You expressed your opinion as to the amount of dioxin 5 it would take in order to cause chloracne We have discussed iL 6 it a greater part of the morning*. 7 MR* HEINEMAN: .Object* X t is vague and indefinite, 8 expressed to whom# when,.,vague and indefinite, your Honor* 9 THE COURT: Overruled* ..think that was clarified11. 10 in the questions prior to that one* ..Overruled* 11 Q Could you answer that question? 12 A 13 it* If I have been asked my opinion, X would have given 1 4 Q My question is , you .did give that opinion, did you 1 5 not, sir? 1 6 A X. can't recall, when *X gave it or on what occasions, 1 7 no, sir*. .... ;;t*- i '* 1 8 QV. , Well, did you discuss this subject with Dr. Rousch? 1 1 9 A /I'm. sure I did,;yes,.-sir*.. 20 Q And did he agree with you, or ..you and he in agreement 21 as to the amountr;of dioxin it Stakes to cause acne to occur? 22 A , I'm sure we would've been, yes, sir* 2 3 Q Have you learned anything, from Dr. Rousch since that 2 4 time that he has perhaps changed his mind as to the level of f ri -4 90 1 dioxin contaminantnecessary before one gets the condition 2 called chloracne? : . / ' ,A I don't believe we.discussed this, sir. 3 Q Well, at any event, ,you all deaided at that meeting . 4 5', that you did hot need to: notify the EPA and that you did not 6 need to notify the customers as .to anything other than the 2,4,6 trichlorophenol content of the products, is that correct, 7 8 sir?' _ , -v ; , V'/' ` ^ ; ; , 9 "X * 10 A' . T h a t s o , yes-,,sir., - ^ v - - V- *\'L Q.'. f And ou of course, you are aware of the ifact that the 2,4.dichlorophenol goes into products such as Weed-B-Gon and 11 ; 2,4 D .that we have I don *t think .1tve discussed it with you, 12 ., ^r 'r ^ tt that Mr. Musgrave has .discussed with witnesses^priory to the 13 1 J I4,/ time you took the stand.->You knew that had taken place, I take \S. it? ' *- * . . ` - 16 _ '17 - 18 19 2 ' ` 21 . 22 , A I'm sorry, I'm, riot sure what you are asking. . .h - *- Q .:, Well, I-Sam not^sure .thatX put it in a frame that r '\ V, / . "'V , % '* J LS ' '. ^ r\.s< ^ *f \ i ; / j, i V * ( .. v - V -' . iv J ?r--1 ,*>i you couldy properly answer, .Dr/ Paget. You are aware of the a:`v fact thatwe.had.discussed:in this'case that Weed-B-Gon and --J t . ,!_ '> ,f, . - - ; , y _* 7 V * .i - *' - - ' ~i j" 1 ;f v i. > , ' / 1 -v'' < Jr t ' _ r? '.I r r " ` ' ,* ,k ' - ` " j - i 1 ,t * i. . ` ` . i. 2,4 D contains Monsanto product called.2,4 dichlorophenol? .fi. '> V'1'* * f*i""Y,r` ", j- y..:'< ' .A ..iNp, ;sir,* I am not aware, pf that. CT / You are not aware'o-that? 2 3 A. No. 1 ' 2 4 Q Well, do you know that 2*4.. dichlorophenol goes to - 1 **. '1. " * ; ' ' x ,* . BAYONNE, N.J. OOO F O R M iL 1AB SI ' I customers who use it in making .the products, known as 2,4 D or 2 Weed-BrGon? ^ ' ' > ; _~ ; ^. 3 ^ A . J Yes, sir. ' .'/. 'Fr/ ^ 4-1 Q All right. Andyou.iloknow that ultimately, the ` -.5 6 product .is going to be used by the-:-- well, by the homeowner,. by people that have farms,.,,-iby / all kinds of people that are' 17 involved in controllingdandelions aridother weeds? 8 j A Yes, sir.. ^ `v s _ , .v / 11 -Q 'id you do know that it's going to be sprayed on the ; > 10 lawn, it's going to be mixed .in gallons of water, for instance. 11 ;I think if you looked at that ..Weed-rB-Gon can you will note that ' U it takes four teaspoons of >7eed-rB-Gon ,to a gallon of water. 1 -- 13-- ;' ; A .. I don11 1know: it, but I believe that might be the case. v ' 14 - .Q And;do you know that the JWeed-B-Gon contains, nearly FORM. it 24 B - J . 15 eleven percent .of the 2,4 dichlorophenoxyaceitic acid? L *,I*." _' i .r * L ' < 1i L * ,'4 **_ r L .* J L1 ' ',k-*J *s ' ,, 1 *J Li.. ** ' ' i CL m 1(6',^ ' A I don't know, but it you will tell, me so, X will ' Ou, ' . * - ' . ' v. ** 'V\<vv .^:p' r p . \ rr \ ` * r >i/ 1 *:v - '. SoKO* r . .171i believe 'it, ryes. - . v* V . j; .* V w % /f;:-, - . -, 1 . . ... J2 18 Q 1 And you do, know that .customers will be ultimately ZW - 1 -^ ' , 'V-'.l'ffS> /V ^ f'V'-, { Hr V- i k ; * **, l < -V:< f. , J* J ' ' \ i` * . "'r , 1<D ^ - 19 exposed to-that content either oh your lawn or on their dirt, 1 20 or somehow vthey. can ^come in contact with it? 0 u J,,' ^V, * . A v t 1 ' ;2r A ' Yes, sir./ /-: J -' ' ,/ - ?22 Q Now, would the same .percentage .that is .14 percent 23 that you gave us for the^ soil contaminants, and you mentioned 24 ' it for the Lysol, would that same percentage work for the 1 j *, * * . . r ' , , '* / - r; / . . % 'J 1 2,4 dichlorophenol that has 2,3,7,8 TCDD in it? 2 MR* HEINEMAN 'Your .Honor;, let me object to the form of that question as being so vague and indefinite. . We are 3 talking about different material, different substances, 4 different amounts. I can Vt Imagine how anybody could figure 5 6 that out* 7 THE COURTs Overruled. 8 A You would have to tell me what assumptions you wish 9 me to make, sir. .... 10 Q Well, is the toxicity of ,,2,3,7,8 TCDD affected by 11 the substance that it contaminates? 12 A Wot as far asX am aware,; no, sir. 13 Q If you get itinto your system, it doesn't make any 1 4 difference whether it's on.grass and ,you eat the grass, or on 1 5 the dirt and you eat the: dirt, or if it's on the grass andyou 1 6 lay on- ;the grass as Mr.^ Kidwell fell to the ground in Sturgeon, * ' ' . 'i.. ^ ` 1 ' '4 , v , ,, ` 'r ' '*' . ` . 17 or if ou-- -however you :come In contact with that. If it gets 1 8 into yourvsystem, whether you eat it or inhale it or drink it, 1 9 it gets into your system,,and it has .this same effect, doesn't 20 it, sir? ^ 1 ' ; \ . 21 MR. HEINEMAN: Let me object, your Honor. That's 22 eight different questions in one. And Mr. Carr surely knows 23 the differences in concentration, whether it's on grass or 2 4 whether it's in soil or in water or some place else. It's 1 t- - ", - ` /' *.' ir ^ J _ -V , -J 93 f' `v ^ - I it-, . . - ' 2 3' misleading, and it* seight different questions in one, and X object. , ' . . .. THE COURTi; Overruled. it is a proper question. It's M ' ', 4 one'question'. 4.,-". 's A - /You would have, to let me jcnow what assumptions about ' 6 \ .7 the spread-of the diluted material over the ground I should make v before I can even, begin to answer that question, sir . . -, '1 - ^ 8 V ' -,t . '9 J ^'**"' *j io -1 -, Q Doctor, does it. make a difference to you in determining whether or not chloracne is going to be caused-- -you . have to take in, no matter how you get; it, the same amount of r. , ! '>: / "'ii * 2,3>7,8 TCDD, don11 you,,, sir?-* ,, % J-- - -ij ;* *12 > i ** ' > - 13 I ,,AL; Yes,/`sir. .l Q /, For an average 150-160 pound man, you have to take, in r" ' .. \1 4 7,000 micrograms, don't ^ou, sir? . ; - 1 _ p e n g *d c o ;. b a y o n n 'e , n .'jT o t o o i " - b . 15 ^ h VYes." , 'v- ktOfsi^ ' -16 , . tv-**;**.?> a r. - /?*>' . _- ^:!v,f'?>?*'*.Mr'.-aR>-_. -iHti*EI'NVE.'Mi_A-iNj,-r''."'"-.vPW-/ ev-tfj*are, talking `^ .about a one-shot' Ld- ose - S o, i` = "Z !1 . ' 1 7 - v 1no-w`# -*'.* . 18 - " '*- Q r'<' "' . 4^ t *.'l\ 3*t"''V.r . - ` /**l t.^r..V--S* }.'*, ' l -, ' "' ; - ' .. ' * r^* ^Or iri an accumuiative^dosQ over a period of time. i? isn't that., correct?-, -` -1 . ,' .V t ii ? v !V .; ., . ^r` r .-...20 ,. :V - . A ,, Over 30 days or so, yes, .sir. ^ U4 & v ^ . 21 s Q Isn't that correct, ^ i r . :- /' 22 - " ; Yes, sr.r . -- - -,. * r' / !`2 3 ' Q ' So it really doesn't make any difference how.you get * _ . r ~ _ 2 4 . that 7,000 micrograms in your system, does it, sir? ". ,, e \ r 'x ' ' .-"i " - J lt ' ' ' , 94 1 A -Nothin the strict form in which you absorb it. The 2 , amount of the material you .absorb of course affects you whether 3 you take 7#000 micrograms on^--? : .. ' 4 Q.* Well, I certainly agree with that, Doctor. .1 didn't 5 / suggest there, was anything different.Y You have to, have it. into 6 your systemr,whether it comes .from .eating it as X suggested to 7 . you earlier orwhether it comes from eating the grass, eating,, . 8 , the soil" drinking the. gallon of water that has it in. it. ;How 9 many gallons of water would you have..to drink in order to get 10 7/000 micrograms of 2,3,7,8 TODD if you assume that it's got 11 ten percent 2,4;dichlordphenol 'in, the Weed-B-Gon and that four 12 teaspoons, go into a gallon of water? 13 A And how much 23,7,8 ,TCDp am.* I to assume that there 1 4 was in the original material? . . . V :' FOAM IL 24 B 15 . Q 7't2plWlVthat^you^mtVZ Say 50 parts per-- -let's do \ ..., i.-c jj-_5 ;i;;vi.'j. ';> f\t ' :/ ; J 16 the" same Way we did the soil., You had 45 there/ Say it's 45 , '' *';- -y v , -v**,t. c* i -> ,'*3 , - Y ' 17 parts per billion\that goes into the 2,4ldichlorophenol that ' C? *" 1 " " *' * til"s ,, rae , 48 . goes- into Weed-B-Gon. Y \ < / . .. 7 _. . / ' `t j , ' " * - * 1 > . -5, * , i > , f f * v v - .. 1 9 A . Well/, sir," you. have t o hear with me while I make this 20 calculation, .because it is more complicated than any we've done 21 so f a r ; Y , * , - :' 221 Q All right. Roundthem off so it will be easier for 2 3 you. if you "want to use- 45 or 50. might be easier ./; ` 2 4 MR. HEINEMAN:_ Do yon want to include the fact of* p ~"J -, 'T , r` y >5 1 ahy diiutionfbf/2,4 di/jbec^ ,1 Vv" N 2- 14R. CARR: S u r e t h a t * l l b e fine. ^ ,, - 3 MR. HEINEMAN: \ Do you have .that figure?;, fc- > s ' S^;L : MR. CARR:, Mr.Musgrave said assume: that that was all 4 ., . V; y ' y " . ' . _ l " v, ' 1 J " 2/4 dichlorophenol iridthat ,Weed-;B~Gbn dan# and that's okay; X 5 ' .6 will accept'.that. . ,, wj.:;!:/-.;-/;. y ...y -- -y 7 . . MR. HEINEMAN: X understand from Mr. Musgrave that that's inaccurate. ' 8 -' ` / y / V ; *. 1 " V: '---y'/.; y'.'y//y ^ .y -y ' '/ % y, . V 9 - ; ;'. MR. CARR: Well #;Mrv Musgrave put it on the board ;.and ^\ " ,, ,* y ' <.; J 'Vr*` 'v-i'v--l.jl,, (>''/.;_i, , - y y .-v .; JO, ;just assumed that it, whsl all ,2#4# he is^ the one that, did the; ii calculations bn the Weed-B-rGon # i f m y memory serves me /right. , 12- .And he didn91 /.give any factor /of dilution other than >the.. 13;' dilution when it gets into the galIon of water which: we have to work/withixi a momont. And if /you want to assume that it's 14 ,J, ,' ,.ty y. ,y ;. yyyxy <yy, y ^ ; - '-,v , ' further diluted# assume that/it'^diluted another 50 percent, . 15 4* l , ; M ^ / . ' y \ y ' ' *v / y y 4 "v/ \ V. ' it9s fine with me# Doctor. : . . y > \ 16 , 17 . ` li>: : ' A i!i;It'V3''thrae teas.p7bona-jinia gallon. ^ ' - , .c'' 1 8 Q Four, teaspoonsUin-a ^aiiph?;V J -,..v; U CU H /. ' ^ V ` ' '' v ^ `^ -A.' /.Three t e a s p p p n s v i n ^ a / g a i l o n . / . , . . / \ /; 1 9 i- 20;, f - Q No# fbur teaspoons# and according to the directions ' ' -i,. ^^ ^ `^ ^ ^*14 4.' / "1 - * / L\`i ^ --- .^ 21 of course some custqmersuse a<lot more than thatand some use .22- loss # I suppoEe v But/take the four teaspoons, per gallon. 2 3 - : ' A y You would have to drink, ./i think# 2S gallons/ sir..; r, - 2 4 ;^ ;;.Q^.'.;./Tp'/get- 7,0007^ ;ir'. ,w':" ,* ''' r' ' _ / 4 "- 'Vv // / `k '-J ^( --, 1.-'>j'" 1'':\ -.," '\7.."1.'-,' . -1 *' *-'T " -L-: .`; \/ `; - '/;> ,V ' \ /. `' .PENGAD 'CO;, 1 A Micr'ograms. 2 Q Micrograms? * *i . 3 A Yes* - ,, .. Q If it contained 50? . 4 A If the original dichlorophenol contained 50 parts per 5 6 million and if you assume .that it's.diluted in the manufacture of the Weed-B-Gon by 50 percent, I have 25 parts per million, 7 8 and the raw material of Weed-B-Gon, if you like, and that;, would mean there was 2.5, parts per million* 9 10 Q Mo, you left out a calculation because it diluted 11 further in the can by ten percent* Xtvs only ten percent of th 12 can* 13 A Yes, I'm coming' to that* .. So that material in the 1 4 can, the total can, would .contain 2*5 parts per million* It's 1 5 diluted ten percent i n - t h e - c a n . 'v 16 Q .. 2.5 .parts, per,billion?]. 1 7 A 2*5 parts per billion, not million. I 'm sorry, I 1 8 have to assume 50, parts per jailiion. 1 9 Q No, 50 parts per billion*. 20 A Oh, I 'm sorry* Well,then, that will make it very 21 much more, of course. 22 Q Indeed it will* 25,.000 gallons. 23 A Yes, sir, that would be just exactly a thousand times 24 more. . .1 Q Yes* So one could get, if you had your product 2 contaminated with 50 parts .per .billion of 2,3,7,8 TCDD, you would have to drink, somebody would have .to drink, 25,000.: 3 gallons of water before h e ,could get chloracne? 4 A If he drank the diluted Weed--B-Gon, yes, sir* 5 6 Q Once he drank the diluted Weed-B-Gon and 25,000 gallons of water is a pretty good,sized swimming pool, isn't -7 8 it, sir? ..... j, 9 A Yes* . I don't know about;,a .swimming pool, but it is 10 a fair sized amount* - -: : .. H , Q That would be a swimming -pool about 20 by 30, 12 wouldn' t it? ^ ~- 1 3 A , I don't know* .. I don'-t own a'-swimming pool, 1 4 unfortunately; ;\ ^ y , , 1 5 Q That, is your calculation .as..to the amount, and that's -- !, , f, .: 1 : f v f," p ^ *.;* - f-'-,.', f* - 1 6 predicated,|that's`based.upon\the;same figures that you used to 1 7 arrive at the 4,200,000,- or ,1'ja sorry, 1,400,000 parts per O'n;' v r i S f '' 1 8 billion iri soil. `You got to it at exactly th same way, didn't 1 9 you, sir? ...... 20 A The same type of,calculation, yes, sir. 21 Q And of course then the people at Monsanto knowing how 22 the 2,4 dichlorophenol is being used, they would know that it 2 3 would be physically impossible for,anybody to drink in a month'h 2 4 time 25,000 gallons of water, isn'.t that right, sir? 1 . A Yes s i r ,. 2 Q Yeah* So, and even if you had 2,4 dichlorophenol tha L 3 contained 150 parts per billion of 2,3,7,8 TCDD, they would have to drink 6,000 gallons of .water of that nature, wouldn't 4 they, sir? 5 . 6 A Of the diluted Weed-sB-Gon, yes, sir. 0 And again that* s something that a person probably 7 8 won't drink that much in his lifetime. 9 ' A I don't know about that, ,,sir, but-- 10 Q In any event, you at-Monsanto all operated on this 11 premise when you made a decision that this does not contain 12 a substantial hazard to the people involved. 1 3 MR; .HEINEMAN:'^What.premise, Mr. Carr? >fi,. *'v t ' ' -.'` 1 4 MR. CARR: That it would .take 25,000 gallons of 1 5 water, not swimming in^ity.but drinking 25,000 gallons of 1 6 water before you would get chloracne. i\ r * *.*j -t\ i * 1 7 MR. HEINEMANs Mow, .are you asking, Mr Carr, if 1 8 that was the only consideration? 1 9 BY MR. CARR: ,,. 20 Q I'm asking if that was a .consideration that you used 21 when you determined whether or not you were going to notify the 22 customers? ..... 2 3 A At this meeting, sir?- . .. 2 4 Q Yes, at that meeting. And any subsequent, meeting. l I asked you yesterday whether or not there was a plan on the 2 part of Monsanto to withhold this information relative to what 3 dioxin was in the products/ withhold it from the workers/ 4 withhold it from the people ,at Sturgeon/ withhold it from your 5 2/4 dichlorophenol customers/ withholding from your Lysol 6 santophen customers/ from .the employees in the plant. I asked 7 you yesterday/ was that answer yesterday you were part/ in i 8 fact/ of such a meeting that discussed whether or not customers 9 should be notified/ weren't you. Dr* Paget? 10 MR. HEINEMAN: .Okay,^ your Honor, the witness has 11 testified that he was asked to comment on the 2/4,6 study and 12 that he didn't remember the other.aspects of the meeting. If 1 3 I am-- ~I may be mistaken/ but-.that* s what I thought I heard him 1 4 say. 15 - .- . . ,- ,v - v ' THE COURT: You're objecting on this? 1 6 MR. H E I N E M A N ; ;I am.objecting to this, besides the 1 7 fact that Mr. Carr just gave a speech, and x would request-- 18 X would object to the speech. I request that the jury be 1 9 instructed to disregard it. 20 THE COURT: It was a proper .question, number one. 21 And number two, your objection is overruled. 22 BY MR. CARR: 2 3 Q Dr. Paget, was. this meeting that you had in May one 2 4 of a series of meetings held by Monsanto personnel at which 1 you arrived at the Monsanto policy on what you should or-- or 2 would not-- surely not should, what you would tell these people 3 that I mentioned, your employees, your customers, and the peopL 4 at Sturgeon, or the public at large? 5 A Not as far as I am aware, sir, no, 6 Q There were other meetings held, sir, weren't there? 7 A 1 don't know, sir, . 8 Q Well, you held meeting later in June where you 9 discussed the position that you all were going to take. You 10 gave that to your Senior Vice President, Mr, Throdahl, didn't 11 you, sir? 12 A That was a paper to jiiscuss the establishment of an 13 ultra-trace laboratory, sir,. 14 Q You also discussed the very small amounts of TCDD in 15 the human environment of certain circumstances of intimate 16 exposure may have significance, didn't you, Doctor? 17 A Yes, sir. 18 Q Somebody could drink., insofar as the 2,3,7,8 TCDD 19 concentration is concerned, somebody could drink the entire 20 bottle of Lysol or drink the entire bottle, entire can of 21 Weed-B-Gon and not suffer any ill effects, not suffer any 22 chloracne, not suffer anything so far as you know from the 23 2,3,7,8 TCDD that might be in there, isn't that correct, Dr, 24 P a g e t? 1 A Yes, s i r . I t i s n o t a co u rse I would a d v is e . 2 Q Dr. Paget, just what then did you have in mind the 3 exposure might be where you said in Plaintiffs' Exhibit 4 "In the absence of precise knowledge of human susceptibility 5 and in view of the extreme sensitivity of some species, it is 6 obvious that very small amounts of TODD in the human environ 7 ment in certain circumstances of intimate exposure or of casual 8 worker procedures may, and we repeat may, have significance." 9 What amounts did you have in mind, sir? What kind of exposure 10 did you have in mind if you could drink the product and not 11 suffer any consequences from? . 12 A I was referring here to the method of analysis in 13 assuming one was dealing with the most sensitive species, and 14 circumstances where an exposure might occur, we would have to 15 assume that the human being, where we didn't know the precise 16 sensitivity of the human being was as sensitive as the most 17 sensitive species. 18 Q You said here, "It is obvious that very small amounts 19 of TCDD in the human environment may have significance in 20 certain circumstances of intimate exposure." How intimate can 21 you get if you take your product and drink it? 22 A You can't get much more intimate than that, sir, no. 23 Q And you believe from what you have said in this room 24 today, and you at Monsanto believe that you could drink that 1 product and suffer no consequences? You wouldn't even get 2 chloracne, Isn't that correct, sir? 3 A 1 think that's true,, yes, sir. 4 Q And, Doctor, please,, what is the very small amount 5 then of TCDD in certain circumstances of intimate exposure? 6 What intimate exposure did you have in mind? 7 A Well, for example, drinking it, sir. 8 Q And is that the only intimate exposure you had in 9 mind? 10 A Applying it as though cosmetic, perhaps. 11 Q Applying Weed-B-Gon or Lysol as a cosmetic? 12 A No, sir, this was not confined to Weed-B-Gon or 13 Lysol. There was a situation where any of our products might 14 contain TCDD in this particular instance. 15 Q Now, Doctor, the cuatomer could-- and you talk about 16 abuse or misuse. A customer could take the entire can of 17 Weed-B-Gon and pour it in a gallon of water and drink that 18 gallon and he wouldn't get chloracne, would he, sir? 19 A No, sir, 1 don't believe he would. 20 Q How much more customer abuse could you have other 21 than taking the entire can and putting it in a gallon of water? 22 A We are not talking about-23 Q Take the entire can and put it in a quart of water. 24 MR. EEINEMAN: Why don't you let him answer the I question before you. interrupt him? .. . 2 A We are not .talking about .only Weed-B-Gon. We are 3 talking about any conceivable product at that time or any time 4 thereafter* .... .J ..., . 5 Q Well, you are talking about L.ysol, that's another 6 product? 7 A ' Yes, sir. : ,, 8 Q And you are not making pentachlorophenol at that 9 time, so you are not talking about .the wood preservative? 10 A No, sir. .v .- 11 > t ,J ? Q \\ ^ You are talking, about santophen that goes out and 12 gets into iysol^.and you .M e talking about 2,4 D that goes out t* IW" * - r* i} * r`\* *c '^ ' ,, 1 3 and gets in Weed-B-Gon, and .you are talking about orthochloro- 14 phenol that^goes out, *and .others -make it into pentachlorophenol 1 5 for a wood preservative,^and you .are talking about parachloro- 1 6 phenol and 2,4 D that may -be used .in .oil .well drilling, and 1 7 things of that sort, is that correct, sir? 18 ' A Yes,'sir. rr:-.- `v ^ 1 9 Q Now, what.abuse could a worker have, how could a 20 worker possibly be exposed ..to levels under what circumstances 21 in the plant, under what: circumstances could that customer 22 possibly be exposed to levels of 2,3,7,8 TCDD that could cause 2 3 him harm? 24 A I don't know, sir. i 104 1 Q v -Well/ you must have Jiad in mind, because you said it 2 was.obvious / So you must.have known, something You said it is 3 obvious that very small amounts-- .this -is what you said in June f ' 4 of *79, rnot what you are saying now, in .March-- -what month are 5. we in? We are not:in March, .April / o f 185. Doctor,; what are 6 the certain circumstances';of intimate exposure that could have 7 significance? 8 '' A : I don*t know,,sir, ^ wouldn't .know then until they. 9 were--- \ \\ /- 10 >v vr^Vfv ` . . / ' ' - ' Q? y vWhatidid you'havetin mind in ,1979 where you said it's .11 very obvious, it's obvious, npt very obvious, it's obvious that f?`) U ;?f ' *' ' . ' 12 very small amounts of :TCDD in .thehuman environment in certain 1 3 circumst/ancer~s,of* i;nitim*a\ti'e^ie:x..p.oo/su^reorof abuse.or m'isuse or. ^**v ; -v:f ^ .. - 1 4 casual worker; procedures, may .have significance? ./What did you 15 have in mind, Doctor? ; .///. . .. - 1 6 A; Well, in casual worker procedures whre people worked 1^ V r-f . ** '* 1 7 without.the indicated protective clothing. 1 .- 18 \ Q Well,.Doctor, how is,/that .going to hurt, them? They ` ; ^ -j j 1 . *' f t. * ` ` - V ' .. i * 1 9 have' toLabsorb .7,000 microgfams i n a month's time of pure 20 2,37,8 TCDDto even get a cae of .teenage acne, . 21 A . I don't think,you get teenage acne; you get 22' chlbracne.. v r/ X. ^ , ' ( ,J L ^ J L11 ' ^J " `1 `l 2 3 \ Q ,, Chloracne, which ha been .described by you as having 2 4 the same results-- -not by.you, but by your company--- is that ,P E N G A D lO*s DAyONN, N .J, >, - / v l - i V *. , u.: ios f 1 it looks just,like a cse of .adolescent acne; *_* * r2 ;` A - Well, I don't knwthat/^sir. ' ' 3* \Q Well, Doctor, assume,that I ^can prove what I say in " 4\ this Courtroom, Would you .assume that, .please?* Because if I 1^ '1 ,m * s - ^ 5 don ft prove.it, the jury. will, hold .me to account for it. , 6 V 'iHRy HEINEMAN vWhy don ?t *qishow it then? ''* ".7 MR. CARR: , Because X>*m saving it for Dr. Rousch, 8 9 10 i ,1 1 : 12 ..- VJell, sir, I will xn^ke that assumption. 1 j'' ' - " ja 4 ` *, Q. And, Doctor, under what circumstances can the worker " ' \ < f f `r v ~ ?> T if/. '' ' -, ,take in .that; level* of 2,3,7,8 .TCDD ,,in your .product when you. .U y-rt-twV--; v > f/ v . . - , k. - have only the maximum that^X have seen by anybody is :the ......... . t ***p*r <A* `ijT * V - ' f J* \ -if *r -:* * ' w n* o ,1 * 1:' . v * , .^ > ,/ , -, *^ s1 * 'r v * ~ 7 ^ ,, 7 r *0 J ^ *[ ( Ji .4 <J`" " ^ jI H /,, 1 L i 4. ' ^ ',r* , University^ofNebraska-saying-that. your 2,4 dichlorophenolvhad 1 3 2,600 parts ,per million dm.it>;:how -could they possibly be hurt ' ` ^ - I '. . ' * \4 by that?- . N J * : ;V,.: ='V ` '-J > -. " J , ' 15 ; :.A ' ..We re not talking about .specific products, sir." .. 1 6 W were talking about establishing gnral policy about 1 1 7 dioxins and establishing, a ..laboratory .which would enable us to . . 18 know under any circumstances .with any product that's then 6r at 1 9 any time in.the future,1what the dioxin levels were,, and 20 r , 21 circumstances where we would.have .to make a worst case anaylsis and ,assume that human beings .were .exposed to >some level of ' ^ 22 dioxins that might be relevant to the most sensitive species, ' 23 for example, the guinea pig, ^ 1v. . 2 4 . *Q Now, Doctor, ;you re not .talking about detecting it B A Y O N N E / N.Jj. 0 7 0 0 2 ` FO RM IL 2 4 B f ^ v,,b ^ > *' " ' `'v' y- ' / '`;W `-.'S -r ' '-,r - '* , ,k . ' 1 J ( ' Jt, V '- ' , .J ' 1{ j r* j 1"- ^ <-.s J [ .' * * * ^r' * J* ^ ^1 -* 1r In this paragraph that.Xread to you and M r , Heineman has road 106 to you. You are *talking, about 'the .small amount, ver y ,small' ; '2 3 amounts ;o TCDD. Well, let* s start-- ?-dofine, .please, what,you - '.4 mean byfvery small amounts .'of TCDD . : Do you know 1,400,000 ,/; /w ' 'r"' 'r , ' ^ *' .l;-. ..V. ^ /' j. 5 parts-:per biliiph--^ / * v j _V. v,,*-. V'/ 1' 6, .-MR.`HEINEMAN' Were you about .to say,;Mr. Carr,, that 7 '^ he washVt referring in the paragraphto .extreme sensitivity of <- ' '* J ' " - T. vX 1 Ki t J. / *' ' ^ ^ 'p ^ . ^ ^k r J 1' '` .v ' r> ' ' klV * ` '* ' ^ . S some species,, because iti'is .certainly there. "\j 9-- 1 11 .be hasardous;7for ^amp^ji} \e-jiAguifo^ . - `'y , .\.\t' '` ^ ' ^`-T^ ", V ' .V. 12 : V Mo,' you are talking about humons here. You are say- V - ^ 's V .fij- h`h `rf?tu'T:y " r' 13 ing;.very small amounts 'of .TCDDin,the human environment, didn't ; l `' ' ' - l* . *` 1 4 , : you:use ^the- Words ,human environment? ,r . , <, ' .. 15 ' A Yes, sir., z\. 16 Q You didn't sayanimal environment? , f v, ; 17 A Yes, sir, but in thesame sentence--- 18;" Q br . Paget, please, if you ;would, I want to know what .19 ^ is the very small amounts of TCDD in the human environment? - ' " ' '*1^^^^ ' H v', `^- ^F'' '_ J't j"f^-I "*, * ' 4 ^ * r. rp ^ lJ 20 i What small amounts do you h a v e ,in mind? ^. 21 '- A \ It depends o n t h e precise circumstances 1 ' J .21 `' Q , Give me the small amounts that you had in mind, . .- ,- v^ \ ' C ' -w^ \ J 1 LC . J.. :''' 1 ` . 1 ' . *- . ' ` - 2 3 .! whatever the circiimstances ,niay be . ' - v .. ` - , .*' *- . 1 ! :/ ' . 2 4 ' V A One would want to analyze reliably--- FORM IL 2 4 0 PENGAD. C O . / b a YONNE. N .J.*' 07002 \ y* * - <t . '  - '* : y \ \ 7 ' `V S-. '/V'7 7/ -V-V/ Tj' -\ ' ' t t -p , %1V . * '* n-r^'v `,, '' l "i** 1 *'* -f rr ^"j t "4''A, : f ,L --**J,',~_P,S\..,!,i *-rJ* '* .C''I1fJlJr'J*"-*' 4'f*'-*4,''I`^S'i1'`^ >-Tr,1>.'l' "J'*L,-*>L <* ,` - " \ ^--^ 4iph ,,''!r-, ' 'L VJ^13L^ *' 'v ' ` V ' i * "L ,c^ f "4 `L' ^ rL-/+1 '/' ^ 1 - 1 ^ ur r` .Vh. s " J 1/;* Q -.' didn' t ,asJc you "that. I want to know what are the . 2 i`-;Vvery small amounts that. you .had in mind when you'used the words >/,w -r"; '/-' ' A "rj'',w',rl-;t.-,"''",,.V',-f :i ^'*r^'t '.. -"-r*-1-:n.'.- " '. J., t^t "j ` .t 3 in this paragraph.: . -:s S-S v::''S - 1vr;.` '. . j Lt 4; ` --A S ^Of tthe order bf^parts .per/billion or parts per ^ 5,r million,vyes;S" / ,. * * ; ,'S^ / *-' '/ _ ; . . s L '* 6 L ,j; '/q The order of parts pier million or parts per billion? S' - -.7" ' .`"V.:' ",'A A/ /'Ori*Sparts/per million. _.,,r, : ^ `v* / S `- d/; 1 -8 ;: '" Q `L;S What parts per miliion? ' /\ ' /S : ,, f? :A A r /I#-" SJ - : ! S ' L'1"^ * , *' 9'.* \ .'7A iyj i'litjdidn?t have .a ;specific number in toind, sir. .That o. ; y . - '-y;y; i? ^ was a .document suggesting^rr- ~ ^ - '/ :N;"J- S ' L,-; ,1 i 1i\ :;: : Q ,y-Would one part' per* billion meet your definition of a 1y *-.,ji>*j J\ L", 1 .`L .<"lA* _ j -i_L-. - T ~ *r-j , ii.V very- small* amount: of TCDD .in .the .human environment? J --xf, j- i v} if;.';^ ^ r^ ^ . , _ ` i^ ; r ' 1 3 . Z 'y. ;:A . One.ipart per billion i n aome circumstances is a very . -^ )4 ' smallVa^untjT^ -,'.y ,J../,. '.': ` j ' ; FORM IL a ' is ' :,, Q vZuyMy question iSf WOuld oxie part per billion meet your/ 3 `7J*^'1',1..",r.iv-..Myd "rw!l.i,.rt'.: .V",`1i1,1 Lr v :,L,- '^ t-- ` " >r -W'f7+%.r i ; r'-h r-.1 16,. specification 'of very small amount? `. . ' - ' T.'"i'rSOO*-,,'**Ji 1 7 ' i / A - That is a very sinal^.ainount. . .^//v 'J,y ZJ '' 1 1 8 .,.'; Q Welly Doctor/tthat can' t vpossibly cause anybody any '.^Of-**""j ,c < rJ 1 9 ';---fQ<ZO^c6.j.'i". V' M> 2 JpV L> 0 j harm'/ and you would have to eat tons of dirty .; '/* -':' -' '>,j/1** . -,,, <;*-V><-t'- :**"- tV >*/v1 J' , v' -'' !;ij' ,*i; / ; j JJ1-;`* ;Adf*1/t1/. .XS^/^d^i,'*''ird.n^t' sayr**trJha,1t, it - -*ca1u+sedlih,^arm, 'sir?I.*.-,-Z'L ,* P" \JJ, r \ .'i /Vs' : '.,,V/'.', V.-V '-rM,./V ^.r:V - V -/,* '>, 2 1 : t\ JQ : ./Well/ Doctor; you. are' saying it here,.' It may ;have . i'J\ ' '."r-V ^ ^'1 ' y..r'V '* '7 ;r V-`-'C,' .'' V.^ 2 2 ` significanoevwhat you mean-bythatsurely.is significance from -,!; 1 ^C,-r.y' % ' `j/,...VJ*' x ' ` '' - ' ' '"~ 712 3 - ;a health viewpoint. ^ V -='-i? -' * V.-VvV'`'` ' ; 2 4 * Za \ '} ;Noy ;sir/ - ^-,N: y'::"- y .`y/V v. - Z"/y yv ' ' ./ j "i,v S.- f K^^ Z ; / ; y v ; ; v : . ' ^ ' Z z y v y . y v y ;' Z ' . Z . Z Z ^ - ' :''"' / ' A, v J . ' 1Zv - -..//'`'/y VrS vyyv >'' *y,; .. V 1 MR. HEIHEMfiM s >He didn11 .say it was one part per 2 billion there. Q Isn't that what you have fin mind, Dr. Paget? 3 A Mo, sir, that isn't necessarily what I have in mind. 4 Q What are the very small amounts in your opinion where 5 6 they have intimate exposure before it would have significance? MR* HEINEMAN: Objection,*,that has been asked and 7 8 answered. v , ^.. f *!?>. - *r ' t-'" r ** ' | i 'F j w r ./ 1 9 Q , ;,My question is not: whatf -you know, ,,what did you have 10 in mind at that time. Doctor?.., .t ,_*\'dr j i , ''*''. \jr 11 A ' Any small'amount, six, but depending on the circum 12 stances-- 1`" ",-`" r V . . .L,?*t,*. 13 r THE COURT: Overruled. 1 4 Q Would one part per billion have a deleterious effect 15 upon human beings? 1 6 A I don't know, it depends .on the circumstances. 1 7 Q Any circumstances.' 1 8 A Personally, I don1t ^think one ,part per billion would 1 9 have an ill effect. ,, - 20 Q Then, one part per billion would never under any 21 circumstances pose any hazard to human beings? 22 A Not any circumstances I can imagine, no, sir. 23 Q And what about, a hundred .parts per billion? 2 4 A Well, X think that if you drank a gallon of water ' a. V V ^-'-r/'w../ 109 1 ; every daycontainingthat, you could eventually get, a body \ J2-*" burden thatmight lead to chloracne* ; / 3 - .J Q D o c t o r , we just went .through--- were you -drinking,. /,.H,, ; r7 ` ' >. v- ,'"r.*1''_-, (- i >''' j / - . -,v' 4 - waterthat contains--- you would hay'to have 25,000 gallons,.r j/ - ' - ' ' > * \,t t.`/" ; -.f< / _ 5 ' ryou "could.drink,the purel-.ttiing.and not get chloracne, and now 6 you are saying something different. ., . ^ , *. 7 ; No,' sir,. I amsaying .you .could drink'that .every day / / . V-' 8,/ of. your f fn. 'r;^ ' -T,;.;sit. \i.$ /Wu-i/v''*' ' *L. 9, u '*` A " " *. <1 Q How much would, you .accumulate if you drink\in a r, J . i!**-.*'\ .s -A '5' ifi-A *>.vlt , * - * * " Vt' ^ < 11 L( ri * ^ yr * \ 10 : month1s.'time?' Is dioxin, going,sto/a'cacucmuum!ulate ^over a.lifetime, 11 Doctor?: 12 A - I don11 know,:sir , *. ,/: L . V' **;m*-t-f{ 1 3 J[ ,Q\ Well then, Doctor , why are you saying that if you If v 'doh?t'know'';tbAt?... .rj..y : ^ ^v - v 15/ , -K ;i:dpn#Lt;kngw^that^ I -'' ` ' ^ 1 6 ' Q .. A h u n t e d gallons of water, or.rather a gallon of. It water a day* containing a hundred parts .per billion is going .to '/ / ''v. : : ./< *;. is; -give youvchioracne? - y^,/l ' 1 9 . ;> A i No, .sir. > * / .... - 20\ y'/ -Q ';Then, why did "you.say it,; Doctor? . / 'V \S 21 y' -.yA; ;''No>.'.,.jbhat was a?-f-1\mi sspoke. `; ' . . . ; -. 22 / ; q Well, tell me what Is the level that you consider 2 3 ' in your product; could cause---what are the -very.small amounts 2 4 - r that could cause-- *-that could be significant?1 ./ . >ENGAD CO.',- BAYONNE.' N.J. OI OO Z /-'; ^* 1 .A Well, significance doesn Vt mean necessarily a health 2 effecti sir; Q Well,, what does it mean, Doctor, if we are not talk 3 ing about the human health environment? What other significance 4 are we talking about? 5 6 A We are talking, about the .circumstances as for example now where: weVare debating .about .very small amounts, which X 7 < . w ,l. V- 1* -s 8 don't think---" ^ Q V Doctor,, we' re ^debating. small amounts only because it 9 10 has a deleterious effect on the health of human beings Vie s r`;7 'f . ;7f< T ,r L 11 don't care" about it in the other context, do we, sir? 12 MR. HEINEMAN: Objection^ Would .you please let the 1 3 man.answer the question before you start shouting at him 1 4 again? * ., , 1 5 THE COURTS Objection overruled. The answer v;as not 16 responsive to the question. . .. ...... 1 7 Q Doctor, was there any context in which you want to 1 8 talk about TCDD other than .human health effects that has any1 1 9 relevance whatsoever? . 20 A Yes, sir, of course ,,there are. 21 Q What, sir? Give them. 22 A Well, for example, if ill-informed people make 2 3 statements about our p r o d u c t s w e would like to know from our 2 4 point of view what is in those products. ^p 1 1.Tv ' S.v> > Q -.7And ^Doctor,;they1kr makingthose statements only Hi . . 2, -, because of he:health ffecta of what .they, believe, isn *t :that 3 ` 7 right, sir? ; 7 ' 7 7 / 7 a 7/,l;777 ;'7 .'7 ' ;,7 '7- " `\ 7 *k ^ J ' 4 :'.''77."}An' rIf.th'ey are ^Vi'li1--iLnfix'me"d?-,,"7t'he'y are ill-Jinformed. V,* . '^ >.-V/-3 r7 -y;. 'A'';' 7^,, 7"' " - r- VI * 5: about the health effects as well 7 * 7 7. - 6. Q ' Isn11 there, any,;othei conceivable thing .at all that ' ^ t' 1/ 8 ,;: 7 9; 2,3,7,8: could do vto;hurt anythingr:other than, health effects? > .77 7 7 . 7 ,, .:.7\ 7 -7 . ... * ;* \ a I don* t know of my # .sir... . `-7.7 7/" 7 1 1" J> ^ -'i,o * > i ,, 7-, f r * y % ' < - i C> '`" - V ! , : *,L,'1 --5'fliVA4 |v '' .'=". ` v> :, Q /7wel37 then7^Doctor77 v^y dci .you saythose things? -".> 40.7 You are stalking",about her*; y % . r talking*abt ;2,3,7,8* ;J7 7 7 "7.7 7-71l' ' -'.,;`V 7 / 7 'll;"; > : 77/ 7 7 'MR.' HEINEMANs 7 Are 'ypu going 'to .let him answer the ,l '"'7':7 "^"7--7r'7 l;'a r; "*7-;-j.---''7 ^ 1 2 gustion?' r--vCt.^ -7`,' ; ' * .v 7 ^ _7 .* , ,(i 1 3 ; Q * .What do you talk about, then? Why -ar\you concerned;d M ' about very email amourits of .TCDD in the chuman environment if , " '7'- ''* i -r_7''' -`i. " *' j- . .'_ ' ^ jj .15 " you are not concerned about7the halth? , ; ; ^ *.- ; 7 ,1 BAYONNE, 'rN.J.. 07001 FORM L 24 B 6 : ^ 7 A Because I would be concerned about .what people might 17 * 'say1about"the,product, and we ^would /like to know precisely what ;.7...:' v :,7 ''7 -; ' -v..V;'7vV7 -v-. 7 ' 7 ' 1 8 > '.the facts are about .a product..;,-77 7 > 7 ^ _\ 7 7\ -7 ** 19 ' 'i. 'S' ,Q a And why; would they say it about the. product, Dr. 20' ; Pget?. 7 '- 7 7;..7*777 ~;7v;- .7`.'-" 7- .7" " . " 2] ^ L22.7 ; 'r . ,A .* Q Because they are ill-informed. 1"1*. ,, '* '' ! 1 :` -V`,'/k1,^ ,- , '' 1' - ., . v ; ' ;,Andrwhy would;it be jpf ,concern to you? Why would you - ` . ' - . " " r / LJ ' t > " -i 1 * ` ; ' , '- - > c ' . 2 3 ` 7 care, if -they said oh; there is a lot of 2,3,7,8 -in there if it > 7'*' 7^/v7:v7 ; A 7 ' 7 /7"7 :7:--J-' ,. ' ' . ` .- -- ' 2 4 . isn't because it would injure somebody or if they are saying' it ,j t\r r v 1 -j' J *' 112 1 would injure .somebody / what :other reas6n would you have?. 2- \ -A" ; We would W a n t t o knpw What/the facts are before we 3 ' rebut them// ',./> .v.*-- .,,A., . .. ; / 4 * Q . .I understand that. 3 u t you;are talking,about the . 5 subject of human healthy whether they are ill-informed or fully 6 informed,., ypu `are ../talking,about, human,health, .aren't you, sir? -7 ' A y - V , Y e s ; , l s i r c j j ' v , V , ' '8 \ . ? 10 . Q f;;Now,j Doctor,igive^ma. anything other than health where t`\- . o //: `-'iSj k 1_X-- /, V , * . - ` * / - ! * V> *- W i ^ L. ` T f. - , . it has any relevance whatsoever. ,; , .- i' -r;^ t;--vfri\;.*p .' - ''- ';A .Well,! that's' not/strictly. to do with health, sir; 11 If we don't believe there ,1s va health hazard, somebody else 1 2 says there/is-- : - " %>* a \'- ' <-V r ' - ' 1 3 /' Q ^Doesn't that have ta do with health if you don't 1 4 ' believe it is a health hazard, Doctor? ^ ,V 15 ,, l^ ;MR jHEINEMAN: Obje c t i o n .-He keeps interrupting the 16 witness; / ; \ / i*' . ' ^ . ' .* 1 7 * Q *If he is exposed to St and he.says healthy, .aren't we 1 8 talking about health, Dr. -Paget?/ - , -/`.. ,^ ^ 1 9 . A Well,, of^course, sir. . 20 / Q ; Now/ Dr..Paget, 1 want you to tell me then.what are ir r V :: rL -' \ 1 "r - , iS . J . -x / 1- . / 21 the very small amounts of .TCDD that .you believe could under 22 some .circumstances have significance' on humans* 'health. 2 3 A .it depends what people said about the product. ,> - v- r - LZ . . 2 4 , Q -;V/What they say can* t affect/your health. They can tel PENGAD CO.,/BAYONNE, N*J< i 1 you all day long that 2,3,7/8 is bad stuff, it's not going to 2 make you sick. It's only going to make you sick if you get exposed to it and if you take .it in and then you've.got to take 3 4 it in in certain levels high .enough to give you acne. Doctor, i that's what you were talking about.... I .want to know, sir, and 5 6 forget about tlie uninformed public. I want to know what you 7 are talking.about when you .said very small amounts of TCDD in ^ ^ 1 *T ' * fc. J ^^ V ' +^ 8 the human environment mayrhaye significance, what were you 9 talking about? -------- , 'l. 'i; 1. 10 MR. HEINEMAN: Object. It's been asked and answered. 11 THE .COURT: Overruled. It has not been answered. 12 A . I was talking aboutwery .small amounts, sir. . 1 3 Q Were you talking about one part per billion in 1 4 santophen that goes in nurseries? . , . 15 A I would like to know that-- , 1 6 Q Are we talking, about,one *part per billion that goes 1 7 in nurseries, sir? , ... ... J 18 A I. would like to know .that, yes, sir. 19 Q You were talking about it, weren't you, sir? 20 A Yes, sir. ' > 21 THE COURT: Gentlemen, could X see you at the bench 22 for a minute, please? ^ _ 2 3 (An off-the-record discussion was held a t . 2 4 the bench. 1 THE COURT: Ladies and gentlemen, we will take a shor 2 recess at this tim. The .admonishments that I gave you earlier 3 will apply during this breakTalso. . The .Court is in recess. 4 (At this time Court .was in recess.) 5 - MR. CARR: X have na further questions of the ` .:r,. 1 :% /- :vf" k. , ; , ; 1, 6 witnessf /youarHonor.,, .V- **.r v\,> , 7 THE. COURT:- Okay, Mr. Heineman. Do. you have any j..; ! \ \ ^ \\V 8 further questions? ' y -,..., ,, 9 MR>\-HEINEMAN tv Yes, ,,sir.; .. . . . . . 10 FURTHER CLARIEICATION EXAMINATION ` 11 ' * BY MR., HEINEMAN,. 12 Q Dr. Paget, Mr. -Carr was asking you to compare the 13 >dose that someone might receive .from a one-shot exposure to 1 4 five grams, either by eating it or by rubbing it on their skin, 1 5 with the exposure that one would get or one might have gotten 16 in the pantachloropheriol, Department,236, do you remember that, 1 7 sir? * .. 1 8 A Yes/ sir. , * .... 1 9 Q Now, of course,' in the pentachlorophenol Department, 20 what you had was the continual manufacture of a product, isn't 21 that right, sir? - ^ . 22 A Yes,`sir. - , * 2 3 Q Is that your understanding? \ 2 4 A Yes, sir. *_ )' V ,, i 1 , Q . So what you would have is if .there were a contaminant - V ~, 2 ' present/ *you would have a .continually -regenerated.source, of that ' .3; contaminant,/wouldn't you,-.sir? ., \ /j 4 ~ "Yes, sir* /- /' ` - ' **/ f- . - s; Q Sp .that one might be-.exposed .to small amounts in .. i ''"t ''**'''* '"^ /, ^\ ,*ir C.i-^ L ' 1 ' - ". , ' 6 large ampuhts^of iiia'teriai over "a ivory long .period of time. / iS : - 7 ' .f 1 -* t;-V-^^ ^ , JA,j!* >l ^ Lm' iVg-ht.*onJ-elf;'n^r"b~tM1?["S!/% V,,/. v 1 t iV.i * 1fV'l ' 'if r. mr'^ f L.' -v p1* j ` / "''' ; -- -- .A Yes, sir/' ' .'V- 1 8 / ,'1 - // `' ir\ *r <*. .jrT'"\ i'V*f/'1 ',`f' *` ,, ` , 9 ; \.'-;q .; And> if there ;was-'some' material that went out, then - 10 they wouldmanuf acture some more? . " "', : il . ' -Vv ^ '/ H, j. ' Yes.-1 ^ u K- '.V-.n! i- . *,* - '- .12 : . o . S -a worker in. tht-department would cohtinualiy be 13 . exposed to small amounts/of,,materialis that right? - 1 4 `; . v X Yes; sir. ` f ,/ ' .15 / ;Q ; 'And there, is a: big difference, is there not, sir, in r> -XooIhr, ;. V1 6 i.ooo,%% 17 -z 18 *'"-,,hza>Ooj*' '1 9 /6o t y 4O. iUa.t , 20 < ,21. dose? As I recall your description ,of dose, you said that was a measure of the concentratioh ^times:the :area in i which*-- '. ;a ' ,Times the .volume. v` :* - Q " Times the volume, yes/ And so. that if th concentra \V, ' ' r 'i - l *' ' , ^ j*** ^ tion is very s m a l l - - - /,7^7-.. ^ 7 - . r'; 1 / '// A Yes* ; /*',/ V*.v j 3^ * '-r \ r. / _ ^; -22 ; -q . ---and the volume ia .very .large--- - '. 2 3 ./ A Yes; sir/ ; ;/ .. t ]-j*. ' ^- 2 4 Q -- rthere can* be a'dose-- ,^ '' ,, J . '"/ '- L ; 1 -.1- - -V.'Fi.i y^ L * **i 'L/* r.-. , - -V `*j` '-^^ k ` i1 t-` .t ,*,t . ' ^ *'* J * ',,-`,- * ^- ") ' t/ .' 116 1. A Yes, Sir, *- ***/ 4 Q --- derived from that. And there can be a dose drive. 2 l* <. - 4 j / - , t ' " "' ^ ' , . * ,, 11* k . ' - k. * ' ,* from an amount that's very .small and a concentration that\o 3 4 ver.y,la..rg?.e.?4 '---v -' -x^ ' -s-. v* Jy '. , .Aj jVs'iislrv, 5' j`;/ ' '/ - 6 . I ^^V J* "v ./".*,> *< .' 7 . A J- Yes, sir. -v ; ,v * ? 1 , --,, 8 \Q - ^Soj you* cold.;hay a'.lot ;of this material in a. very small amount> :and if somebody took all; of that small amount, 9 l >- 4 ' r " , / - '* ' *' ' t i t^ 1 V ' 'V ^ -- `Jf" - # j- r" ^ J- - - 10 ,they would get a .large dose,\wouldn*t.they? \; > ' 11 ,, 12 13 ... A' .,Yesf sir. 1` .. " r' - v ' L^ * `1 ' / V'.^ ^ ^ ^ ! 1 n ^L ^ s^ , -- 0. - r' ' -- J'V;. 'i v r: , - ^ ^ i *j Q . .And if somebody had ,a little bit and was exposed to a * * ,, 'j '. , \*'J " *^ great deal of raatarial/ they would have a large dose?-. 14 . 15 ' 16 IT , ',av - Yesf sir. ^ ~,, S ^V >'Ts 1r F *4 > > s ,. q f so you can ^ > " " * tj '* : v* , ' talk . v!"1 - ^K _ 'l ' k 'L,,j : "J . .,, about.wallowing around in dust as jt " ' - 1 '1 ^ 1 ^ *' . opposed to .taking one fivergram ..sample and eating ;it* right? `v . A\,, '>Yes;, ^ i. s ' -r is : .v Q N ^^And ^allowing: aroipd .in Jdust might very well lexpose .; 19 . you to a great del more? v... * . ... 20 1A Especially if" you did itoevry day, day-in and day-ou^. 21 - Q J ^ d especially ,apropos to this, to the penta ^ . 22 . comparison.that you had\ a product ,that .was continually being 2 3 . generated day after day after>day, correct, sir? . 2 4 A Ys, sir. '. - ;, r^ .1 ^J ^ *. i . !' -c1 '^ ^ k\ ^ . 1 k ; - * ta 117 1 Q .But I think what .Mr.,Xarr wants to have you forget, ' : 2 sir / that at Sturgeon there .was just one amount ,, right? 3 .A ./ Yes, sir. ' . V, . 4 . Q i And that amount* either; was carted off by- trucks-- {it 5 ; A if ;-lYes> 'sir.'i- v- *& -;-Kn- - ' * " J ,, v* v `` 6 '7 ' * ,, 1^ ( l.^ t j-*- -ft ** " -Q. " ; Or-was blown 'away in>the?:wind?. ' ' 1, : " ,lS*- >"f `'n ''-''1'~V,r -i->*' V . - '. , i^ ' i, . J ,-. j 1 .`v 1 r -***, 1 ' A" - ^Yes, sir. . ./ v ** / T,-, . - ~; i 1- n'^ - ' 'j ' , _8 ; m / ' Q Or was washed down the stream?. :-v /A'- Yes, sir. Y y-- v . YY,, .'Y ' 10 Y-Q- ,,-But whatever .was there,.,.there was/not more than at 11 the moment about three "grams? ,,1 *. .. t y ` . K , '. A At the very most that was the amount there the night 13 -of. the spill,yes, sirc. -'-Y* : Y r. .k 14' V- Q \ Now,' you recall,, sir, that the Kligman thing, the *,, ` |l , '3 m- ^ ' 15 .Kligman study-that yourelied on was a skin test,, isn't that 16 'right? '-- Y Y y .. /". 1 ' / - 17- A Yes, sir. 18- / 'Q So the Kligraan .study wasn't one involving oral 19 ingestion as far as you know? . 1* p 20 , ~ ' -i , H<1 A . No, sir. ; h ,, hj r. H-'- '"J , * J J. *. .'`v y- s' , , F .i ' * ** ; 21 L Q .. You told us that 'in terms.-Of concentrations claimed v` - 'i * k ' i 22 to be in Times Beach soil, .now those aren't doses, are they, -23,' :sir?- .. k 24 1s V A -* No,.'sir. 1 v '; ,, "*:t * -s . PEN GAD CO/, BA TONNE* N.J. r* * t 1 Q They are not doses until .somebody takes that soil and 2 actually gets an exposure to it and then actually you measure 3 how much of that contaminant in that soil actually gets into 4 the body; right? _ .. 'lt._ / 5 A Yes, sir. ^ .* ; , 11 *T" '( _ ,v - \ 6 Q But with respect to the* levels in soil at Times 7 Beach, X gather from what you told Mr. Carr that it's your 8 opinion that those levels .should not be your concern? 9 A That's exactly what X believe, yes. 10 Q , Now, with respect ta the ,,Center for Disease Control 11 report which is Exhibit 1255, you have that in front of you, 12 don't you, sir? 1 3 A No, sir, I don't. , 1 4 Q Plaintiff's Exhibit J.255?,,-. 15 A No, sir. .' i, 1 6 MR. CARR: Here it is. 1 7 Q Let me hand that back to you, .sir. New, as X recall, 1 8 you said that it was your impression that the Center for 1 9 Disease Control report said .that one part per billion of TCDD 20 in soil or l e s s TM ..... 21 A Yes. ' 7 .. i, 22 Q --- would be considered safe or of no concern, is 2 3 that right? 2 4 A That wcas my unders"tanding, yes. t 119 1 0 And Mr. Carr:read to.you Yrom Page numbered 49? 2 A.. Yes* * *K * 3. Q In^that ^reportr-.didn.lt;he> sir? ' ,, *' s$s<.*''Vi-,'`rr`^iv,-v fi'n--V.w.e/i'--?'V \i-\>f"" 4 - A :o ^Yes> 'sir* M-%: 'v / . 5 Q r:-And; he^asked yoU vtc>read <that, sentence that said, nlh .\ a 'jVv. \* v - . U ^ 3.^ r.i - -; ^ .. 6- . residential .areas, levels at .or .above one part:per billion TCDD -'.1 .-. v-\ ,-h t a1 v>Y v-'^i*" -. j . 7 ' i n ;soil;caxuidt be ^considered1safe*,,and represent a level of. 8 concern, 9 A.J >,Yess a ' *,,V "J- ]0 ^ 0 Now, would you look ,,at Page 48, .the page just before 11 that. V;-':7, * - /[ 12 A Yes, sir. 1 ; v* L. ".* v 13 . . Q It,says here, "We have concluded that residential 14 soil levels greater than,one-part per billion^ TCDD pose a,level 15 of c o n c e r n . . '1 .- '' ' ^ % ^ ^ 16 "A// v Y e s V l s i r " . 1 v '/ :; V* 17 " Q` .correct? r -- V r IS r t A l Yes,' sir*/ , . j. > ^ , urti *.. ... , J~ ` .f': ` . rfv 19 Q SO;-that that;{would he consistent with .what you , - i", iii-', * "v * . * * .4ll - , r 20 originally, reported, isn! tJit? , 21 ,A --.Yes, sir. 1;- 22 .Q. And-it also goes on^to say, "The'appropriate degree 23 of concern for .which,management decisions are mad should also 24 consider a h :evaluation of -the .specific circumstances at each -^ .A tT *' .-4 *. i ^j - I * l`V . ; /^j S- - >;Isrs1 'c ` . 120 1 'V 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 1" 11 -12 13 14 15 6 ,i7 ' 18 19 2 21^ ' 22 23. 24 contaminated :site," isn't that correct, sir? \ A -- Yes, sir* ^ ;'` - ,',v'.rv * ,. Q A> ,.Now,,as `I .understand it/ ^sir, you don't agree with 1:h-i-"-' 1:: n, CDC that anything above one part!' per billion concentration of TC2DDD in eilvis necessarily,/aUconcern? .,, r`~ , uJ r ` 1 ' j `- 5 a;' ' ^ ` : .A No,-.sir, i don't agree.` ^ *V. v^-vv \r\i y.v\VVT --'iiV ' ,.. v>.':V. .', Q And-indeed, whatthoy d i d h e r e w a s to set a level, and they,attempted to set .a level below which there would not be any concern,, and abovewhich they said they.would not consider.it safe and it might represent a level of concern* 1 .. A They said you .would .have ,,tomake specific decisions in Jeach "specific case, yes,, sir* : . . /' ,Q , Now, if I can direct .your-attention to the page of this report numbered 7^ --.- - . - A Yes, sir* . ' *_ -- -v- V/ .' VvV *' /'.. N ,-L 1 .'v.-/ ' - - ;Q . You see that vparagraph right there i n the middle of the,p a g e 'just above the. part .that1s labelled 0Risk Assessment" ;A ;L Yes, sir. ' ; ^ ... ' Q And .they say for the.sake of brevity extreme total daily dose estimates were compiled for two. divergent levels,of TCDD soil contamination, one .part per billion and 100 parts per billion, based oh the assumptions, set forth above, at a n ' initial soil contamination of^one .part per billion in residen tial areas} the average daily TCDD .dose to an individual over i- / 07002, 121 1 a 70-year lifetime would" be 44.6,picograms? 2. Yes, sir. ,'L ,*i' /'; - .j / *;* - < v / J - S' 3. Q !/Now# sir, they*re; saying that at the one part per 4 billion level which is the .level over ,which they would develop ' j-j',lyf 'V s\ J\ *. /v- fr5 a degree of/concernr-that:one,partsper.billion in soil would 6 give rise to 44.6,rpicograms*of ,,TCDD dose taken in by an - . . , p$ l > .-*< ^ fvi!**,* ` i f*. t , ; Vi 7 individual every day for. 70 years? _ . - ' 8 1/ A , Yes# .sir. _` /* -x / w 9. .`x-- - Q.. //Correct? _ .-* -_> ,// JO * ' A s J" Yes#*sir./ / \ : , ;' ., ' : .. 11 Q. Didn't you compute what theparts per.billion or what 12 the dose would be of 45 parts per billion in 69,000 parts per 13 . million of GCP? . /x .. s - 14 Vi a *-.. Yes# -sir..r,. ='' / ^ ... ^ *1 15 . Q .> The level, of that?;** . / ., 16 . >. 'A- That was# I think, 200 and some femtagraras per kilo .'17-=; gram/ yes.. ^ / ,/ 18 Q And you and Mr.. Carr,, agreed .On some figure being - / -' . ?'`W `^ ^ A/ . L * (^ 19 based upon if .you assumed ;that there was .a ten percent contain- 20 Ination of the .soil, with,the OCR, if.you assumed ten percent 1 21 and there, wasn't a. single level .found by Western Environmental 22' Services/ or. OH materials# which was ten percent# they .were all 23 - below, that# right? , `` , 24 . A' / Yes, -sir. x -- *'i ' " .' -1' ' `t ' , ' . , 't * ... c , ^ ,v' >. -- . ,,. 1"r i -. ,'k - . '' 1 . . .j . >1J*"*'`.v;_lJ* tJ".f ;],vt ; , r ' ^ 13: *' > i PENGAS CO, ' ' ' t. '- *i - , " -,. ^^'l'"p " - J*1 \ ` <./ :/ ,w . ' s . 1 - Q 1 So lif you assume there was .ten percent OCP in the soil 2 .'th`a't'thre,'"-'-s-dio*se^ from .that in .a ,5-gram; sample .4i.^ /,'t\l -$f' i'&. '? 1`'t-'V ' .would, 'L he 22 ' pico- 3 _ grams?1 \} ixr, ;/V 0 ? ; ~ -i- " y 4' A '."fr*|~rYe^.s*>^*.v;srir.ii:,v*, /fa*``''J.f>ihvi.-its1 *'f'tvi" ** r 1 . . - s-c- .iv; r`V1''j i*.v^< > ' . - , '5 1 Q Now, a 5-gram sample.of a .seven percent OCP. solution ", -vi? p'j ssp y` 't* ' would, in soilV would burn'.you,1wouldn't it? / 6 ' 7. . A - .Yes," it would indeed/ six;#' yea* ,8 Q \ So somebody wouldn *t eat jrive grams of .OOP with--- or ; k 'r\ , .fc ^^ vc S^\ * ,, px.t-** /1,i ,,J *'' ly ,,*>* ^ '";- * 9 soil with OCP/in it, Iwould .they? ,v..' 10 n 12 " A . `Ho/ sir* Q , Because-it would, burn them?\ v A *.\ Yes, :absolutely.' -...... -- v " v ' -V'*1'-. ' rJL V^ ' 13 Q How/ even with; seven;'.percent .or/with; ten percent, 22 14 picograms, that is one-half? is r .,, "ly" -'Yes.; -' ' *, 16 ,, Q ; Of the level that this CDC says you could eat every daj 17, for 70 years'?; "' 18. . A . Yes,, sir. / ;1 19 ' ' Q ,Is:that right?- . ,>/ ;-J, . 20r 21 A nr Yes, sir, . ' t ^ - r. ^ - ' ' ^ ,;v ^1 . ' -V ^ - ! Q Howi let me direct your attention to Page 50 of that 22 report, sir* \ Do you.seeVihat? , ... ,/ 23 . A tYeS',. sir. " \ 24 Q l*m looking at/the first full paragraph at the top of *,"F`Tvf'*' J** ,,rVr - ' ,1v,l * ^t`r'^" *% * " k.,.,f.4'"V'-,k/r~--* ** t s. * i:' 'r - * , > ` N. ' t' . L/ i *k?" rtCi . k1 ;;V ''- S " ' : v " 123 the page starting with thewords, :"The method*1; 1 'Vs;- *-.' uV. ' - ' .'. .' V ,-,A Yes, ,,sir. ' v 2` ' ' - - Q ; It says, VThe method used for conducting a risk 3 assessment .and identifying /a level of concern for TCDD- in"soil 4 ,5/ is complicated by many uncertainties, namely, insufficient data on the toxicology of TCDD,^insufficient information.about ^ 6 1 exposure, of people to soil, and,.insufficient information about 8 intake of TCDD by humans'from such soil.11 * '^ 9 ; A. Yes:. ` 1 ' 10 ;Q "It .does say that, sir? J V 11 ^ '*'1:A Yes, 'sir, it, does; /'. v;' ; 12 ' Q ,Nevertheless, despitethose uncertainties, the Center 13 for Disease Control said that at one part per billion and below, 14 or even if you take that part that Mr. Carr read to you, below . 15 one part: per billion, there would b e no level of concern? 16 \.A Yes,, sir. ' 17 Q Now, I want to get into, again, if I may, your 18 {position paper, which is Plaintiff's Exhibit 1262. Do you have 19 that before you there, sir?; . v,: ^ 20 A Yes,;;sir. .'/ - 'V-^vv . " ' ^ ,y 1^ ft m - '* `1 * ' ,,, J f ^ ^ 4 1. p -^ ^ ,r 17 21 Q -^NpfW,.;Mr, Carr went...oyer with\you again and againand " V j * j f : * }T' * . f - . p ' * ^ ~~ ' A - ? f ' '', ; jf iV ^^ J 22 again the'*.last.pa%agraph::ron`-that'page,; did,-he not, sir? - 23 A Yes^tair, .hVdidV 'f- " " .* ' 24 Q ^ow# would you tell the. Jury'what you mean by the 'r: -* v riitt;-r{Ti-V . *.1 : . Y-v'?,:: V*'' ^ i ; i ^ - v^ v , S, FENGAD .CO.'. BAYONNE. N.J.. 0700Z FOR*-)L<24B 124 1 term significance and how that relates to .the worst .case analy- ; . f 1T _ i's < X . }: ;r.f . jr - ~ \ ;*- . * ' ' 1 L 2 sis that .you jhave told the-jury .about before? ,, - ; ; .y/ki!--? .^vr " * .j ; -- . ^ '-r -3< A Yes, sir. -Of .course,^thew o r d significance in; this, .r-.< . " !,v".'-.*'(r*\-V_ -t / <* jv---x. *?ru-\ i !.,I's <i,- ; *it '- v_ ,f .r:. ...- c. . . . - 4 paragraph meaht significant to MonaantO/ and it could be "5 significant in several res^ects Tand ,an obvious.one;which Mr 6 Carr went on about is if, that level were.of health significance 7 in relation to the people^thatwereoxposed to it. But it could 8 also be significant if for .example .somebody alleged that.there \ 9 was an amount of materialvin our product that was possibly 10 damaging/ that could be significant because w e -would wish to 11 allay the concern froma,basis of certain knowledge about how - 12 much ..was. there. It could .also be_significant if for example 13. we wanted to' understand exactly what was happening in a parti- ** ^ 1 * '1 , J" ` 14`. cular process,that 'could:be .significant* We would also want to is. know# even although we believed. .that there was ho conceivable 16 hazard to, human beings # when .we did "this analysis which was ^ <3 .17 palled the worst case analysis/, we would want to know, would 18 that level that we found, in.an. environment or in a product or 19 wherever, would it be something which would be significant if ` ' ,^ , 1^ 'J ^ '`1 20 the human being was as .sensitive as the most sensitive species 21 which w e knew, and since as i ^said 4.n the beginning of the 22 paragraph,;, some, species are .very sensitive, we would have to 2 3 ; look'at very -small: amounts. - Now, .that's not to say that we 24 believed those small amounts would be' injurious to human beings. PENG AD CO..' BAYONNE, N.J, OTOOl FORM. 'IL 24 B i *3*"y1>*- `l-'X 125 1 but we needed to know1the amounts befte we could make a certain 2 ` . judgment.: You can only make certain Judgments, from-rcertain 3 Judgments you can only be certain In your judgment,if you can 4!' be a little clearer about it. You can only be certain in your 5 , judgment if you know th exact facts,-and this paper recomnendecl , , -*1 -. 'r ' " i^ ^ f * / ` 'I *', * < 1 *? ' * * ^ *t l x 6 that we put ourselves in a position to.-know the precise facts 7 about dioxins and products in the environment. , 8 , Q, Now,- sir, when you.were making your decisions in -9 . 1979^with respect to what Harry Gilmer;had to be told up 1 there, you engaged in worst'-case1analysis, didn't1you, sir? n :;,A Yes, we did, sir./ , ' . p"-' . /Vr-- '/ 12 Qf .And you weren't talking about whether or not how. \ . 13 much, material would-be required to cause chlracne as opposed 14 to, anything else? . / -;/ /V _ 15 A; Yes/ sir. ;j ` ^\ 16 Q\ You wanted to be sure that'if you assumed any person 17. exposed to that,had the sensitivity of, the most sensitive 18 species namely a guinea pig,,would the amount of 2,3,7,8 1? ; present in that product ;conceivably harm them? Isn't that what 20, you were' analyzing? ; //v i-,, L . p p -7.'>' </ J . 21 : A That*s exactly the worst case analysis, yes, sir. 22 And moreover/ that if you assume that all the dioxins .were . 23 2,3,7,8, which was not clear .at that-time, that'those were the 24 ' `" L '\ ?jf ^-, '(t . (***rr->4.' '* f 'v *'"V-.\J ,/**- ' , *i f worst -assumptionswe could- make, and those were the ones we ' :Vi- t-7'-i-*J'`<; Ov - i.' ---?r i*j} M . *;J VV/ iV-Hl'$'7Vi,V*i^* :-v;" V-. f j . <, * ' * iv/ .* : PENC A D j CO,, I did make , .4 ,, J *, \^ . : -_ 2 Q r And those assumptions on a 5-gram intake of soil " - <, * iwould give rise to femtagrams. of dose? 3 4 A Depends upon the precise .concentration in the soil/ .: v y 1 5 but certainly in the order of .femtagrams or occasionally 6 picograms, yes. r. ME. HEINEMAN: ThatIs all I have/ your Honor. 7 8 THE,COURT: Okay, Mr. Carr?. ME. CARR: Nothing, .your .Honor. 9 10 THE COURT: Okay, Dr. Paget. You may step down. 11 Thank you, sir. 12 MR. CARR: I'd like .to recall Mr. kaley .to the stand, your Honor. 13 14 THE COURT: Okay, gentlemen, could X see you at the 15 bench? 16 (The following ..proceedings were held at 17 the bench.) 18 THE COURT: Any offers of proof or anything out 19 standing with this witness before we let him go? 20 MR. HEINEMAN: Let me check to be sure. 21 THE COURT: Okay. Are there any with you, Mr. Carr? 22 MR. CARR: No.* There's none for them either. 2 3 MR. HEINEMAN: None,, your Honor. 2 4 THE COURT: Okay, fine. .Thank you. * *, i . * t * 1 ./ (The following .proceedings were held in 2 .open. Court. ]r;v f ,Ro b e r t "c. \k a l e y , 3 (being recalled as ;an adverse witness under 4 Section 2r-1102 .of the Civil Practice Act, having 5 6 previously been duly, sworn, on oath testified as follows3 ) * v-' 7 8 CROSS EXAMINATION - BY ,MR. CARR , 9 10 Q Dr. Kaley, you understand, of course, that you are 11 still under oath? 12 A Yes, I do. . Q And you understand you're, being called today because 13 1 4 Dr. Wilson is unavailable and .X want to prove some Exhibits by you that I had in mind to.prove by Dr. Wilson, do you under 15 stand that as well? 16 *, 1 7 A That is my understanding,, yes. MR. CARR: I'd like^to pass 1120 to the jury. It's 18 1 9 already in evidence. 20 THE COURT: Pine. 21 Q Dr. Kaley, you recognize 1120 as a report authored 22 by Dr. Hileman that was-- -a copy of which was sent to Mr. Ward, 2 3 Mr. Wilson, to Mr. Mieure, to yourself, and to Tom Taulli? 2 4 A Yes, that's so.indicated. 1 Q And appended to 112Q.~is what is described as 1X28. 2 Do you see thkt, sir? That1s the table that's attached to it. 3 A Okay.- It's not so-marked, but Z will take your word 4 for it. . X will take your .word for it that it is marked that was 5 up there. .. . 6 Q Yes, it is* . ' .. .. 7 A May I take a few minutes to`..read it? I am not S familiar with the contents of this. 9 Q. Oh, sure* Doctor, X'm not going to ask that many 10 questions about it. ...... 11 A Fine, X just wanted ,,to be familiar with it. 12 Q Do you understand that this, is the spill sample 13 number three that was referring to the material that spilled in 14 February of *79 in the Department 237? 15 A Yes, X would have that understanding. 16 Q And at that time in .February of 1980, this document 17 identifies the various isomers .that was found on January the 18 11th or whenever it was found, it .was at least reported by Dr* 19 Hileman on January the 11th, and identifying various isomers, 20 isn't that correct, sir? .... 21 A Well, X think the memo says materials which coeluted 22 at those retention times, with that proviso* 23 Q Well, at that time you had these standards, the 24 1 ,3 ,6 ,8 7 1,2,3,4; 2 , 3 , 7 , 8 .and .1,2,7,8? ' - ' ` ; ^i .'t3 ii-j-,,\ '\ -V V- x^.s'f. ~i t N *ii i ** i -1.*- -- -` L. '* . 1A 2 >: . v ^ ii iv f(r:v'!f .*r-\-}Ki s>k*'<! T . j,` L' '.. . ' . That's correct*- ; : , .L; - Lv ^ ` ^ ,i^ ~ ^ * 1 1* i MR, HEINEMAN: ,Your .Honor, I object to this* Excuse 3 me , Mr. Carr, I object. to .this line of questioning * We have * 4 been through the same set of questions with about, four 5 t witnesses on this document* " Now,, if he intends to. prove. 6 documents, that's one.thing, .'But this document is in evidence, "7 these are the same questions that's been asked before, I object. 8'\ It's repetitive and he is. intending to unduly prolong the !**" ^ 'i , ` ^ ^ -i "L- *'* , v t , ' 9 examination of'witnesses, here* - \ 10 MR. CARR: Your Honor, Dr* Hileman could not identify * \ T -* f . - 'i L tv U this as being the material: from 'the. spill. He objected to me 12 rasking questions of.Dr* Hileman about,the spill* He knew 13 nothing about any spill,;, and , all I was going to do with this 14' rw,itness w a s .iJ"dJen*tify, th*at>thi's was -f*rom .th^e spill^*andL that ' i J 1 r k' r ' - rn, '1 5 these isomers were discovered*. , ,\* - J *a o. ,I6` 17. THE COURT: Go right ahead, objection overruled. MR** CARR: And if it wer e n o t objected to at the BAYONNE. n`.J. 07002 `1 8 time of Dr Hileman, X would.not have had to do this. ' ; 1 9 r. BY MR* .CARR:' J V ' \ ;V . w A y -- - ] V `*-a - (\ '2 0 Q r Doctor, now these, were;identified at that point in 21 timeinJanuary 1980 connected with those spill samples, the -.22 2>3,7,8 isomer in the level of 120 parts per billion. : ' 2 3 a ; Okay, it's a material which. coelutes with 2,3,7,8. J24 It Is not identified in the body of the memo, . it specifically .vv*t'>. \'JV i(\ * _-u-.LC'.vl . yV. -i . 4?r -{j *i V` _v. >:- vV/i.. ''<"} w/l- - <. . ` r t-:. .''.'> V- i 1 *. !'} v :1; 1 says that the recovery for 2,3,7,8 was based only on the high 2 level spike, because the. lowrlevel,spike was concealed by TCDD 3 isomer coeluting with 2,3,7,8... So we are back to the same 4 coelution. 5 Q This was not a coelution .question. He identifies it 6 in this document as 120 parts per .billion. 7 A Material that is coeluted, it is stated in the memo. 8 Q I don't care whether it is coelution, he identifies 9 it here as coelution. *.... - , 10 A As a material which ,,coelutes with 2,3,7,8, yes. 11 Q And, Doctor, we of course have gone through the 12 University of Nebraska examination, and at the bottom pf this 13 page he also, talks about, the .400 parts per billion of TCDD A 14 present, correct, sir? -- - 15 A Yes. He makes- a statement it is approximate total 16 of 400. ...... 17 Q Which is in reasonable agreement with spill samples 18 number one and spill samples number two? 19 A 1 That's what the words say,, yes. 20 Q Thank you. Doctor, JI now hand you Plaintiffs' 21 Exhibit 1256 and ask leave to pass copies of that to the jury, 22 if it please the Court? ^ ^. 23 THE COURT; That's already been admitted, I believe. 24 MR* CARR: Already in evidence. 1 1 THE COURT: Fine# ycxu may. pass it to the jury. 2 MR* MUSGRAVE: ,,You don't .mean this is in evidence, 3 do you, I4r. Carr? '4 MR. CARR: I assume J.t is, is 1256 in, Jerry? 5 MR. SEIGFREID: - Yes*, . 6 BY MR. CARR: 7 Q That is the number on that document, isn't it, Dr. 8 KaXey? . ... 9 A Yes, that's the way ,J.t is marked on this particular 10 document. ....... 11 Q Is there any question about it? You recognize that 12 as a report sent to Monsanto by the University of Nebraska? 13 MR. MUSGRAVE: Mr. Carr, ,,1 have 1256 as Monsanto 14 Biohazards Committee meeting of February.19, 1979. 15 (Plaintiffs' Exhibit 1276 was marked for 16 identification.,) 17 Q X hand you now. what\a been marked Plaintiffs' 1 8 Exhibit 1276, Dr. Kaley., Do ,you recognize that as the 2,4 19 dichlorophenol samples that were .sent to the University of 20 Nebraska for analysis and .their report on those samples? 21 A There is no identification of the samples other than 22 by numbers. . ., 2 3 Q Well, that may be, hut I'm asking you, don't you 24 know, Dr. Kaley, that those were samples sent to University of f-- ' . >\ : t 5i'-\ y: ". ^ - ` - . , , ' r'' H '\ ^ -- ` -- : ' ' ' t- ' t ft^ 1 Nebraska, I think we.have some Exhibits in evidence, yes, that 2 were sent to the University of Nebraska for analysis, 2,4 " ? .3 dichlorophenol from the spill .sample. . 4 A I really"can't testify to. that, that that is what 5 this is. ,1 ., 6 Q Now, Doctor, did you go to the University of Nebraska 7 in August of 1979? '8 A I think it was July,, yes,, I d d go, yes. 9 Q July? And did you not at .that time either send or 10 have sent to them or know .they were already sent samples from 11 the 2*4 dichlorophenol,spill? 12 A Okay, I certainly did not. I think Brian V7ard may or 13 may not have, he was there at the same time 1 was/ and I am 14 frankly not totally positive about what samples Brian had. 15 They were independent visits .that .happened to coincide. 16 Q Now, .Doctor, X< didnVt ask you whether or not you were 17 totally positive. Do you .recognize that as a report to the 18 Monsanto industrial Chemical Department? , 19. A Yes * ' <, it.. 20 Q And do you recognize-that.it's dated September 11, 21 1979? ,_ 22 A Yes. ` 23 Q ` And it is a report, .thatVs reporting on some samples 24 analyzed, is it not, sir? k . ' ,L ~ ' * v: r ^ , :v 1 ' il i | J \ 133 1 A That*s correctv .1 J ; . . 2 Q nd of chlorinated phnols? ;r -, ' . , * ' - r ? ' f ' -' s 1 ' - _ .c , '` . X H i - , ". . 3 A; It isn't'so stated inhere, and I'm-- that I can find. 4 , Q -Do you recognize"some of the same numbers, Doctor, 5 on Exhibit 1169A under-the column of the/University of Nebraska 6 column? ^, / V 1s ' * - .. J T ^ l i 7, r A. .Ys,;! do. ; /v,T. _i,,y._/.\ y'1'-. >/."7 ' .. i Q And .that talks about the DCP^reserve sample? .. . 9 ' & Yes; it does* V / u -- ,`l`. 10 . MR. CARR: I offer 1276 into evidence if it please 11 .th Court. ' .'*//// ;**.'* ' *Ly- . 12 - -(Plaintiff's Exhibit 1276 was offered 13 .*-.;;'into evidence;) '.;t. ' ,-v 1 ; 14 MR; MUSGRAVE: If the counsel offers this with regard 15 to 2,4 DCP, 'make the same objection that we have been making 16 previously with regard to.-that. It's irrelevant and immaterial' 17 and has no bearing on the ..issues, in this lawsuit. ; ,/ ' ` v`,i ,"j; ^ - _ o-- .* * 1 ; ifi * i . . 18 - THE COURT: Okay;: fine. It is admitted over objection. 19 Your objection is noted!for the record. '20 ,(Plaintiff's Exhibit 1276 was admitted \ 2r tt.`-?}1 .v7 into ' e v i d e n c e ^ ;/V ,. t.,'- i..1V " ''v:4' ' '' 22 BY MR. CARRr,> <t . 1N .n V- C'xi '' r I'- t-''X i L vijt\ /' > i/!-:> i'r* > i*',-r'-j /- - 23 Q 'And; -Doctor; the Exhibit , this /report has in .written, 24 typed form, the-csame information that appears or some of ,the , i i K)'\- "-AW ^ " >1 ' - . . 1 -,< ' r *5 s a v o n n e : n .j , r fv* 1 same information at least that appears .in 1169A, does it not, `2 sir, with regard to theUniversity of Nebraska? , 3 . `A Yeah, the numbers"--s3ome ,,of the numbers, are the same, 4 the sample, designations ard..different .and borne of the, numbers 5 aren' t the same ly *. ..y.`-: 1 . ' 6 Q Weil, the sample designations are the same, it .has 7 2,4 D too here, does it not? And the sample over, here has v- . V- , 11... _, * 8 2,600 parts per million?. ', . ~ 1 .9, A This, one doesn't say. 2,4..0; but, yes, that's correct, 10 Q ' And then the next Column i s the third sample. It has 11 27 under, the University of Nebraska,, it has. got 2200 parts per 12 million. And over here,;.I'm sorry, per.billion. And over here 13 it is described as 2,7001 parts. . \ . 14 A Yeah, but on that document it's got additional ' 15 information." ^ .a,... ' 16 Q br. Kaley, I am perfectly aware of that,. All I'm 17 attempting to do is to "get you to agree,that these figures 18 that are entered into1this Exhibit 1169A also appear on 1276 19 A Okdy. Those three specific numbers db appear Ion 20 this 1276 that I am looking at, yes. '- 21 Q Now, Dr. Kaley, I hand you .now what's'marked--not 22 been marked anything yet, but would you mark it please?, T i ' ., K 'si V 23 ; , (Plaintiffs' Exhibit 1277. was marked 24  /' \ - '*^UVP*J^'M -V ` 1` X --, 1 [;- J. `* - ! '1,, Xt , " r . !1 '' - Jr^ " ''rp"Lr'V " Xh " X `,',,.1_ J .` - ki. , f i_ *'" ^ Q 1227, do you recognize t h a t Dr. Kley-- oh, I'm , 135 * 2 4,sF*-orr'*y,,,p* ^.1fc2"7t'7`.'A/ ,*p1"*',,' -^'vrvh,/i,^'^ '*' t't;*|m'->v>.'`*v, .1T -` ' , ' ' 1 3, , A . . I don11 have a specific recollection of this document ., 4 ` hO.;`V . ./V * . * '- - 5. Q .. Well, do you/ recognize, what-it's discussing? > 6 A'. I do,recognize,the sample numbers. I think it had , 7 . come up in my previous 'testimony, yes. *- : .8 (Plaintiffs,1'Exhibit,.,1278L was marked for ,9 N /. ' k.\ ;./ /identification^,) . . .\ : /-. .r, ' : io Q s' Doctor, handing~you^ow. Exhibit .1278,, it can Help ' f 11 - you identify that, particular Exhibit.: \%Dr. Kaley you recognize 12 - your handwriting on/thestable in .that .Exhibit, the.table1 ` 13 attached? ; ^ ,\ 1 ' 14 ' . A ' I'm sorry, there is n o handwriting on th table I 1` 15 have.. ^ - V " r. . . / ;^ ` ' PNGAD CO.. SAVONNE, N.J. 07001 * ' 16 J ifgc- * ` Q ^ Oh, you didn1t= get one with .handwriting on it. I sorO* -,./ r, '17. thought I handed you another one,. / The .number of this should 1.:; . - 18 . be-- -we will have to renumber .'this j.278^,, Handing you now a U2r ^ ^ ^_ J- ^ 19 new Exhibit. 1278 and ask,you if -you recognize your handwriting 0U!2lU,' 20, on that'Exhibit. , ! Do you `/recognize .that, Dr. .Kaley? ' 21 / A , Yes, I recognize that - as my handwriting. ^' - - . ,22 '' V '/ (Plaintiffs' Exhibit 127QA was marked : ' 23. . -->for identification.):. */.. -' 24 ; t.' Q* /:Do you' recognize^that/Exhibit 1278A as being that ; . v.: v J >v*;1- i '-,v*` ^ , * . /' ; ,'s^-',-{^.c /A1!.V ; .. i'n-\r**'v;v- ,r/: v :- *' - .,'; .>' . 1 table but without handwriting? 2 A Yes, that's correct*. 3 HR* CARR: X offer 1278 and 1278A, if it please the 4 Court. 5 .(Plaintiffs' Exhibits 1278 and 1278A were 6 offered into evidence*) , 7 THE COURT: Any objections? 8 HR* MUSGRAVE: You say you offer? 9 MR* CARR: Yes. , .^ , 10 MR* MUSGRAVE s - Is that the handwriting?' 11 MR* CARR: Yes* ,' 12 MR* MUSGRAVE s So you are .going to have one with 13 and one without the handwriting? 14 MR. CARR: You have .one with the handwriting. 15 MR* MUSGRAVE: X wanted to see if he has the same 16 one you gave me, Mr. Carr* Your Honor, X would object to 1278 17 and 1278A in that it would appear from what Mr. Carr has shown 18 us here that this deals with~at least the one sample, a 19 santophen residue, v/hich, has nothing to do with this lawsuit* 20 Xt is irrelevant and immaterial* . The other samples are not 21 identified in this document, 1278, and for that reason, there 22 has been no showing that it would have .any relevancy or 23 materiality,vand we would .object on that basis. ,, . ' *" \ ^ 1 i 1\ 24 THE COURT: Objection is',,overruled* Both of them ' !-f^ h 'V r ' ^ 1 \ -, \ /:4 * '*'* i**/ ' hjV 'a"' "rt>' 1 1" " * fv J ^ . V * J n. Z " 1 , nt _ *- ^ -*V ' .,', . ,1 ". ' 'A :' l, , >r-r - *?--,.?' * -''s'-'..'''.NV > . , ' ^ L --.. '1`fL o.'', ,, ' ..' 1 are admittedover objection ;- / -- 137 . V 'J 0 .(Plaintiffs 1 Exhibits 1278 and 1278A were 3`- ^ ,': ./ admitted into evidence, ) /. ^ ^; 4: B Y M R . C A R H : 'O ' . / .',?*> '-U'.m . '- **':-'?** V ' - " 5 / , Q 'Now.,5.'Doctor, the Exhibit that's on *the. board that has 6 the concentration..that has.the same retention time as 2,3,7,8 7 - has 56---I'msorry, 560,000;parts per billion/ does it not? 8 ~ . h ' - 1 No,rthat1s parts .per trillion. . \ ^ t';` 9 ; q '' Per.trillion, does it not i> ;sir?..; ' . '*-' - ;'_ ,,* ir^ . * ' 1^l^. 1 i > % *,T '"-, ^ " r/1 - ` -"- -. *'~j ^ r;.S_. l' r/ . . * ' ' '"--1 'j ' / ...." , ' ' v- . 'c - 1 ^ 10 i '/'y:_X' Yes; 560,000 parts per trillion,; yes. >$ >, " L u iV: ,Q : . 'tod? that is the santophen residue that Vs .described 12 in the other Exhibit that .1 gave you a moment earlier? ; 13 ' ; 'A "Yes, ;that is ,the. same sample designation number ' 1\ 14- . --1accor`di^ng, to m^y ^^'ha.1ndwrA^iti nLg ;6n ^tlii.js:s'heet". .. / ?'*;.1^V ` j s -, ~~ i ( p^j p , i " * >, ^ a ^ \ rL ^ t p ' j: " r ' " jH 15 Q : ^And the next line, ' that has. got the 380 parts per v z Dr 16; ; trillion is HB 758, that, is .santophen, is it not,1sir? "1 1 *,, *\ 'f *v ',, ' * > ,' .J' ^ - \ , , . ? _o * ` < ,-h- . 2. i f - ^ \ f^ 3 +v ' F ,,* J '' , , 17 V ; '" 'A ; I have no way of-knowing -that, .v/V' ' . ; OTOOZ^ P E N GAD C O .,' 'B A TO N N E p 18 t .Q \, 19..; .,A' ,r ^ 20': ; Q Ypu have .no way of knowing that? - ? v., ' - '^ - ^ Not without home documentation. , . ' 7 ' . ' r ; - ? ^',j ,'k *.S . '. t'l. ' '' * *'*J'"r'Vx*-*^*^' ,h V. '. ' ^1J . : ,',tTts` r *`, -X'\ ^ _ Well, .let me show you Plaintiffs' Exhibit 1131 which 21 * is alradyin ^videnco and'iask !you :to look at that and see'if..? 22 '- ,that^doesn't ;help .i i -1 *A.* 4 you identify,.that 1 ^.- fr,r 1' t"T sample, `j'a" v " V .. . I ,'-' -i,, 1 \ .^ t- t` *4 r i ** 23 ' ; , A /-According;to ,this ^document, ,758 is described as 1 ^ ',' - -(l ].?i'r>f. ( ri V:' ft i.. ?(, i-ST-fc ' -. " 11 r\! " ; V 24 '. santopheh >'l,1;,:t-hat'``sJ'correV ct.*.' - " ..vJ-., n L, . -V, - J 31 , ' i /' . % J-* ) * W ' 'f> *' * 4 * 1; f; - ; t J . / / ,,r . v, j . , ,r _ ; ; ' . V , 1 -, - -'V , - ( / ? t .- ^: > ? VVta'V'* . . N.- " . . r; , ^ \ ?- , 138 .1 . . MR* CARR: ;Your Honor,' X ',d like leave to pass that 2 Exhibit to the jury. it will be the .one that has the hand- 3 writing on^itr" forgot to'/do that. . 4 ' , / THE COURT: 2787 ,? '* ' ' "* , t. - ** m^ 5 f ... .MR* CARR: Yes.; V 'Y. ^ ;/ ; k> .6 , THE COURT: Okay * ;1 , :*y '.! *. : J .. 7 . ' * '.MR. CARR: Your.Honor, islote I haven't offered 1277 8 into evidence. I 'd like, to .offer ,,that. . I don't know, did I , 7% ^ > , , ^ L *, ^1 .* V L V .? t - . ll * 9 pass one to the Court? It looks like, that, your Honor. 10 (Plaintiffs.1 Exhibit 1277, was offered 11 ' k ^; ,:V into evidence^)* \ . V . ^ 2 THE COURT: Yes, I 've got min. Any objections to 13 ,1277?;-' -*;y : *' ; .. " . / v \ . 14 MR. MUSGRAVEi Same .objection*- Again, relevancy and 15 materiality, dealing with, santophen* ^ - 16 , THE, COURT: O k a y . I t is ^admitted over .objection. 17 rw* ** LC1"V E.l(Plaint;iTffs'Y>Exhi^b*it~,1277 was adm'it*tte'd* ** . ` -3< ' ' * *, * W> , . * '' m -r. ' ' 18 . * "'into evidence.), Y ; r' ` ` . ' 19 ,MR.; CARR: A n d a s k leave *to pass it to. the jury, 20 . 21 1 '. your Honor. ,, r; l <1 j _lt**-^y " THE COURT: -1 ' . Fine. *- 'h j ---*, , : -r > ` ;Y . .j t " `4 1 ' .. , . 22-*' \ / _ (plaintiffs'-Exhibit 1277A .was marked for' .. ;S r- 'iV >''1'/ 1 ,23 ''.[. i\c-;'\ identification?.! ,. 4 `. * * % 1 I 5 ,, _ f1'. - . < , > " -V -U ' *>. .if b r* >L } " t ^ .* V *1. 1 24 BY MR. CARR: y v. -v " ^ . .. '' * r - * " - \ i "* ' -. 1 ' : V 'i. `` I ' . .- ^ U - X Y ;SJ-. ' . PENG*0 CO.. BAYONNE. N.J. 1 Q Doctor, 1277A is a blowup of 1277, is it not? '2 A Yes. ,, 3 MR, CARR: .I offer 1277A .into evidence as well, your 4 Honor. , ....1 *- 5 (Plaintiffs1 Exhibit 1277A was offered 6 into evidence.)* . < . . 7 MR. MUSGRAVEs , Same ,,objection as to 1277, your Honor 8 THE COURT: Pine. Same ruling. 9 (Plaintiffs1 Exhibit 1277A was admitted 10 into evidence.). ' . 11 BY MR. CARRs 12 Q , Doctor, this report,, have you read-enough of that 13 memo to identify that the 759A .is santophen residue that they 14 tested.and that 758 is santophen?. 15 A Yes, santophen flakes, yes. , . 16 Q And they tested the ,758 on two times .and found that 17 which coelutes with 2,3,7,8 at 380 parts per trillion and 440 18 parts per trillion, did they not, sir? 19 A Yes, that's correct.. . 20 MR. CARR: Your Honor# that's .all the questions that 21 I have of Dr. Kaley. -. - \ .-. 22 THE COURT: Do you have any questions? 23 ' ' , -- J Tf-. ' t t-,'"V'.%' Ai'""'.': - t " ' ;MR. MUSGRAVE: Just ,,a couple. 24 i nCLARIFICATION. EXAMINATION - i> 140 - J :.. "/, BY M R % MUSQRAVE " Q ; Dr. Kaley, referring.yqu .back--- well, while w e 're 1 " . ' L *- f* iL t -* * , -"I V ' f ^ . ^i *^ ' 1 *f r - 3 on itj let's just take a: look at Plaintiffs' 1278 This is 'L '' -- "`\ 1 * -j- - r' -j 1 4 this University of Nebraska ..report* As .you indicate, that is 5 in parts per 'trillion, isn'.t .it? -- r 6 A \ Yes, it is, that|s correct, .parts per trillion ' 7 t. .t ,Q 'And the ^blowup; that J-ir. Carr here lias,.`127 8A, doesn *t ' ..^8 '9 have parts -pertrillion indicated on i t any place, but the -... ' ,\ y ^^ l ,^ * .s * handwritten notes that.you .identified as.your handwriting 'bn 10 the original document d o h a v e i t ? . . . . U , ^ A ` That is correct.~ r\ . . , ; r ; T` 12 Q . ; Did you get that information from the body of the ` 13 14 report. Plaintiffs' Exhibit 127,8?/ ' , ,, .'..y f- - - * -L r ' i' ; ' . -i ; `. , ^ *r * ' '- , . b *j . A . 1 really don't. remember, where I got:it ,,to make that 15. original--- . :v 16:; ' - MR* CARR: It describesit in the Exhibit that I 17 gave him earlier. ' Lr* ? ^ ' 18 A. Yeah, parts per trillioni*. " -L-F "* V '1 ^ ' -1 ' Vs ,,*1 1 '. ' -1 ^ 19 _ Q \ All-right. Now, again, on .the blowup, Mr. Carr- ' 20 21 22 23 24 doesn1t show your handwritten .notes .to be samples five and six that would be the MB 758,is that correct? , A f L v mi * ^ ^1 * , A 'T h atis .correct. - ^ ^ v i . '' t . wip i'*y . ; - , - Q iO ?And;>was?^ereva>blp^p^of .the,other table that he. .just, t . 1`L look4ie. . .d' rat from ) A -* *> - , Plai " '. r ^ nt1. if-afsK', Exhibit '> ' 1131 * is there T in a >' .r ..'-. hre U-U V U 'v.i -v;-lj ;-*?V7`.' ' - - ..... . * t V -J. t, - \^ ,. <-*-rL>,tj t.j- f y 'vi>-* ` -" 1 / , v '^ r - , ^ T ,i iT, ' I- / 'i / I1# *' ' ' -- ' ' j? tLj - m ^ BAYONNE, N.'J* ,0 7 0 0 2 FORM IL '24 B *3'. ' t i ** i~ K ' ' > ' 141 1 'blowup, of that /.Mr. Carr?;, i. 7 ; 7 '`7 . 7-'- ' 2 - 7 7 ~.r 7 MR..; CARR: X *m s o r r y , what r..counsel? 7 ,3 , ; MR*"MUSGRAVE: /Is there'a biowup of Plaintiffs' .; ^ 4 : '\ s 6 Exhibit 1131- of the last, table, .Table 2? Did you' ever blow - '-1, " ; - , V . "^.'L - -r j\ - that up? *-`-7 ^ "777,^ ` vL - , 7 \ ' ' *r ' 7 . ''- .. ^ ^ * V 1 J t . j" O .n > - f4 \ 1 7 y -.- 7 ^ v 'sEi^jtoiDiC^tes'^-7 7 7 7 :; .. , '';o; ' , 7 - 7 ` .7 i 1t '' . 8 7 '9 ''S' '`-/.'lV "7- lr MR. CARR j It should be somewhere, .il31A if you V '; find it'.- -'i> _ `J,`v 'v - `r -; ' .- ?''" ,' 7 7,. 7". *- ' ' >_ ? -< . (`'.I . . 1 - ! J '- r - * , . ' L - `,jsi,- * -- . ' . ^ 7 '7 ;'MRiviisos&iAVE^ij wotad^lijce;Tt o ' h a v e ^ i t > V 7 7 7 -*; THE COURT: /Why Soh'i: we^j'ust take a lO-minute break 7 V' ': ,7 / ! - ` . / `7 ;7.r':v'-^ , >7 " 7 , f;: ' " and'you can find it and set it-up?> y ` 7 ''^7-7' 7/ 12 ; 13 /' 14 15 7 7'. HR, MUSGRAVE:< Fine,. your. Honor. . V . '' 1, 1 , - ' 1 ' k * v . . 1r ' ,' , ,7 `1 .'1THE 'COURT: k We. will /take Jbl'`short' break Lat this time, J'\', -] .' r'7A. H'vi * , v-r ` . c* . .... t- r k ..' . !,`1 ' 1 . .^ .. '* ladies and. gentlemen/ ;The ^.admonishments' I have given you', earlier willv apply during ;this .break also.. The Court is in 1 16 recess. k;;77 7 \ '* ^ -'>/7 " . 7 ' 7 / ' ; J'; 17 7 ' ' (At this time Qourt^was in recess.) . .7:.' 18 r 19 \ = 20 .'21 MR. 'MUSGRAVE s ,Your .Honor,/, we determined>1131A:was '"'i l " 7 ,+ r - ''p ~* ''' l ^ r r .' f * " Li r i - ' 1 1 -itr i *7 A *-r^ in fact hot a blowup but a .xerox, copy ,of.the .same, table and' it '` J . .^2 1 " - "1 . % - , r >- ,k . . -1 had been previously passed to the jury, and I took; the liberty " -'i -j: *>'*." ^<' 1",, ;* '' *L -- to repass it to the jury so we .could move on. - , .. ; 22` :' - -1 ` h ATHE^ COURT:: Fihe> ^thank/you. . /v - ^ ''-:' . " 23; 7 "7 v f n 7 ^ : ^ s U > / V ^ 7 / 7 BY MR. ;M0SGRAVE;: ; ^^ V, A *? - i ;/ -7 ' ` 24 / v7; -.'t /'> 'r/-' i/.1'-,- r, / 1O-' \'4' *. -- Q v So' the^iufy does.vhave in front of them' Table .2 from BAYONNE. N.J. 07002 >FORM *|L ^ /, ' ' " 1 Plaintiffs' Exhibit 1131A, which is whatr Dr. Kaley, I think yoi 2 had previously referred to as being, that is Plaintiff's 1131A, 3 being the analysis that Orville Hicks did of this, sample in his 4 report dated July of 1979, is .that correct, sir? 5 A Yes. ' 6 And this Table 2 for MB 7.56 h e reports total ttras, 7 does he not? 8 A Yes. ' v ,,. . - 9 Q That's what's reported under the Cl 4 column? 10 A That's correct. .... 11 Q And he reports a less than 20, and is that parts per 12 billion that he is reporting?. 13 A Yes, that is correct. 14 Q Mow, in this instance, this is once of those instance: 15 where the ND does not appear before the less than 20? 16 A That's correct. 17 Q And that again indicates .that there was an interior- 18 ence there and he could not reach the level of detection that 19 he could not identify what he was seeing because of the 20 interference? * ...... 21 A That is correct. . . . 22 <: r*.''^t .\ t y*** fS* ^\\f,, '" Q- :So if anything, was.there ,, he was saying here it was 23 less than 20.parts per billion? f - I "i- "v l - '' ' 24 A '"'Yes/ that's "correct*, f -^ ' :- 'J **7* ' ` 7 ^v` r *'- -, ' -* i, J 'lt ; / '+'m , * > / .1.. "- -|Ll , >'`*," L*' " , '' J ,- '^ ^1'' .Jt \ * r *. ' '>,i1',r ^ '. " ,-\*7>*-f . *'*7 `L .L' 'V*-*" 'tf! " l Q Now ,with regard 'to .that Isame sample that was analyzec 2 by the .University of Nebraska;.in Plaintiffs1, 1278 which is up n, 3 here on the chart, shov/n- up here on the .chart as Plaintiffs1 4 1278A> again that would-be .sample five and six, I assume they i' - i- ' b_ i "r '' - * 5 ran a replicate^ ran it,once and then,ran a replicate as six. . ^1 6 A _ We actually submitted two ..samples as replicates. 7 Q Incidentally, you indicated you had been in Nebraska - v.' ,/ * ' * \ . ,, -*. 1 8 coincidental to Brian Ward .going and .took some separate samples? 9 A -That is correct.' .:*J./ v `. , "- 10 \ > Q So you do know,,about .those samples ? ,; , Z H /. 'A . That is. correct. '.; f., ` - - /; i ' 12 . Q Now,; these two. samples then .are shown, of the reports i 13 . are in parts per trillion. L . > k . ",T~" - it `- 14 : A ThatVs correct. ^^ ,.'77^ ^ :.* ./ , - * ' 1 1, 15 j:, *tOr '.' 16 /,Q. Now, the column here, 2,2,7,8 TCDD column, they are; reporting isomers that coelute with .2,3,.7,8# is that correct? r>OO ( ,,F1 1 A Yes, that *s what thev. footnote says. . - BAYONNE. .N.J *_ 18 ^WO4zZe1t''h','w^ 19 ; . r Q \ So in September' of 1980-- --well let me-?--strike that. * MR. CARR: ?79>:counsel. v - > *'UOZoUll h - 20 21 Q ,, Yes, strike that; University of.Nebraska,appears, to have a lower.level, of dtection than,Monsanto? L, :L .v, .i 'O.y-'9 *S/ 1 1 i; ;K./'' r ' 5; `K x . K t '"}><- v. ^ --.t v ' ' 22 .; A 1 >;.Thats' correct;.- /- V, ,v. ^ ' - ! * ` - 23 Q f'All^rlght.. But hohe.thelese, in September of. 1979 ';^-I- ' i]V" 11 'iv..^ \-!,y-VVV 'l'-- -,1-/wl*.j,,v.V,'2",- _1 -,- -, kk.1\ 24 they were not isomer specific, -were they? - V' ri-S t . ,^ r.'i*>' ' ` (..,o- i i t\ r .u V . *; - - ^ : / 1 2' -to r.*, . " ' ^ IS., A Ho, they w e r e / n o t . " % y /Y'/ - . '^ - g. ' . . ,, ,, . C : . - : -- - l -' . -" ` , -i ' ; / ' - 'T** ' . L1 \ .-.J. ... - - ... . -- ` ' Q .` Now,:vwho prepared these ,samples? / Do you recall who/ 144 -3, prepared^these^sampies?'V">i^ > Y r i.Y'_Vr / -Y/Y- - ` 4 ; > ; A r. They would have been^prepared by Orvill Hicks in our 5 / laboratory, v.// ^ Y. / //;/./. Y ^ / Y Y - y ''- . * \ ' ; _'. 6 Y Q ./Dp you know why Monsanto prepared thorn as opposed, to v :7-.s-. :/Y -Y-/ *, '- / //-V- . l- - , / .Y 7 , Nebraska? Y y y Y ''' y /y Y- YY/;. ,-/< /" ;/''/ `/ -- V:iv/Y' ,r'r . :-- t Y'V '', . '; ^,,Y-f.;.- ... .^ '* . . ,, : -8 'Y & . -At the timeitwasmy/understandingNebraska didn't JZ *. ^t r ' T x t,. ^ `^ ^ j*, ' * " -1 ^ ' 1 ' tY ,, * .*** Lr v - r. - ' * *' " *< *- * ' ^ Ij/ LJ ,^ ' lv J t` 1 L' 9;;j have any/experience with separating the dioxins from phenolic /- -^-v v,;.f'V.` 7 - T- " ' 1\ ia -type materials/ so we used iour .own extracts. /, ^ L, 11 ///. Q Now, .going back though to their report. /'Shat they 12 reporthere,.for -instance r sample .five as 380 parts per / ; , * ,zV*- *., 'h- * ,.? *-v**., 1 W.)I 1 :J -s . *^ 1 '^ J< ' 4' ^^ ^" 13 trillion,, what kdoes that translate to in parts per billion? M/ . A / Well, .38 or approximately .4, almost half a part V" //'-; r`-- / i/ ,;v' 1 " ./././ \v ' ':j 'J / 15 .. her billion. J,-` , V; ..... ' ; ` V. A >( '' " - 'v,V/* -.r`; k. - 16 ., '7 ' j .Q // A half a part per, .billion?- /._ ./-V-;/' XT'; / -A' i , / /; 7/^;.' / v i ` / is,;. -, Q So that was beXov^ opr levels of detection, in July of 19 ,1979; `M o n s a n t o ' - s ? " `/-Y. v'.' / '5"; // ^ ' //:.,/ `. '/ 'y,-V-Y . '"/''//, . 20 '- Y A J :Xhat's correct; -v - - Y - * b''V fJ ~i" Jf r^ ^ f ^ l ^ Y ^ ^1 ' 1_ 1 "r 2 1 - :Y fc> -!, Q i },And |the'sampler six"which ,is/the replicate sample* it ; -7 '. 'i....\}l( lr,iA `/ 1j \ . /' . , .>-; r -^ , i ' .j ,+*; * \ , ^ } 1 * \ * s- *k. - v\ 71 ^ 14 , ' - L 1 22/ `" reported 440 parts per trillion of isomers coeluting with the 23-:' 'v-,1--;^t".<^-~yri,V>"` ' i. A\'t*;. iXA*:'/''!';J'/. ,,7 `" ' -1 .J2>;3V7y 8^standard, ^iS/i;thatvporrect?-,/,^Y Y/ ,,` 'i- i' ' ^ /. - ' 24 ;v'Yy Ar`/^/That's 'right.//'/ '-v -- ... "v -' '^ /; Y jy = ; , - L'-; Y Y i - Z Y / v ^ / Y > tt ' \ Y / i BAYONNE, N.J. t07002* FORM lit1 24 B : *. ** * fiJ( r ^ / h "* ^ . j ?* S' ` ^ "`LL 'i; " , *- *'L/. kT^, -- '-fci - 3' >'v* 1 ^ *v* i, j ' * Jt_i *--.J *r F ", / * '* ' . F ' '1 - r * * r . ^ '.*S>r(t-a ',, '`/,, ^*" JVt"'\ "-' ' J`^ * J A-AL^, -,--/ r 1 Q And that would be 111,parts per billion how much? 145 ' / 2 / r " A *44. .* j t r**"* *. -- i ., 3 Q *44 parts per billion?' V; / / **t - i (iu;,' * -,a J u- .'i<v. - k1 / 4 - A -:;yes.-'' / // v'V' - ': V \ 5 ' '! Qt All right. So less ,than one part per billion? .; 6 r ; A/ . ;Yes. ' :/ .-s.^ ./Z^. ^' -/. . / 7J. . ;Q And again that would be below the detection limits ' * \ ' 8 !of Monsanto in July of 1979? *...> ,/ 9 '1 A' ,That's correct* . _/ 10 Q Now, with" regard to -the other September ,1979 * ' V- '^ Nebraska report, I believe^that's Plaintiffs' 1277 or-^-let me n ^ be sure. ^ ; -, f.._ . - ' 13 -. ' . -14 r `"yp;-" -, . ; / , .V"-` ' ' .-Q: '1276. Now, Mr* Carr .referenced you to a number on. BAYONNE, N.J, . 07002 ' * that Nebraska report which he then, ,thia.number right here of a^o - 16 . . 2,700,fthe one of 2 ,7 0 0 . ? - \ 1, iPa ,*,'1^-s'. -17 -* >'T ^A-n-' Yes>yLt^hat's co.rr/ejc-t*.,,.// ^ ^^ - -" ' 1 ^ "`1 -T - ^ ' ' j ' ' _' _' / / 18 Q /.Now, do you know if/this diversity of Nebraska report, z. 1 1 |O ' .!- 19 1 September 11, 197 9, that was done, or at least was reported, at fO2U- ' " 20 21 22 ..23 _ 24 th 'same, time as the samples you took up there?, Do you .know v -, - >:; <;;- `?\-')'" f-,, -r-s''v >tf >' ->l -' -;r * - .' if that Vs iihvparts/per/trillion, .sir? ' ;/ / Vri! "// ^ **>/ `'/' *^v /-* . / - .. .. / ? A*. Okay, on their,data table they give their detection ' i **i- ?* ^ '*.; i.E\ * . - '. v- ^ . r'.?y'.j ^>,;> 4 f \ ^/,f',T<^t J ;,/.L* ^\ /.,/"/ '*l*i<mfiit**s; of^t+e-i_r*^.-**coh^centrtat1iiotns ih p nlan1j1/'o1grams *pe*r, m''illi1lit<e.r1,4_.'i ,vf which is. parts^per; billionrYl .^7 /'/: ..;v //?'.y 5'!^// 7* lL, '/' "1 ,* ^ ,k( t `4* j i -***y 1`' :L ' '' ' : 7-7 '/'/.?'r-w /^ ,/ . 2 /' > . /: ;r .* .- > t' > ' *:/r.-,' 1 l-J ' i - <. V 146 1^ ' \ 1 Q- , Uh-huh. Wally db yo.u-know why they wouldhave - ' ' >1 1 1'' ' - *'rr''* ' . -, , - , . , ',1 I ' .`.. J- >' >* *. .^*.. - , `:s . ,, - ` ' . ?1- ; ; ' reported parte per" trillion in one and; parts pier billion on v ; 3 another?' ' -//r 4 A,: X assume it Would,have had something to do with the `i ' 3 : -' ' f ' ` ' 1 ^J r 1 "' , "> ^ 5 experts at detection limits,thatwareexperiencedon the *, r ** u k,, . * f " ,, *, ' . ' * ^ - J . * , t nv *' ^ ~ * t * t+ '< * ***, I \ 24 * , r - ' \.i - ` p., * ' 6 particular ,seaples."/"^^./..>/;^^Jv v;;y/ //..... '`3 y \ < * J' i '/ v7`: ; ;-Q So; they may have beeh on one ^particular sample, if - . 'i . `' '.v'j \ - : /"V..1; "iL.i' .t' ' *->^ >,8 they get down,to parts per .trillion; on anothervparticular ; J ^L-" ^ jV!^ * j ^ li;.>i*"' . ^ L hr;/r ^ H-^ / -1 .......... /lC,;i ,,* 4 - k * * ? ^ r ' > , * ' J ': 9 sample they/were reporting'.parts :per hil1 ion? /' - ;; ^ 10, ,;A/ ;/As; detection ;limits ^ `; \.-v ' . il ./ . <Q * / A3 detection limits *> And isthis something .that is> , k* " y-1 12 should I sayr not unusual whn .you .are talking about analytical 13, ' chemistry and the ability to achieve detection limits in L '14 ' I?' . different matrixes, different mixtures of those chemicals? ? tj -, . , . :1 , / . ; . J' * ` - J| j ' .v-: ' k , ' , v; - . -A That's absolutely correct, dtection limit is an1 r *I' , '. 16/ a O, ;17J experimentally termed performance characteristic. ~ Xt is very highly matrix depndent. / ' . / ,v P ENGA _C0,./BAYONNE, N.j;" ,07002 / - 18 19 L * - ,t ,.; 20 - : Q -In any event, we have just established that ' v '/;:\^-/^ v-;:^ ` J J' ;; September of 1979 by their,/own .report they were/hot isomer , j*fX ... specific for 2,3,7,8, isn It ^tht ,,correct? ;: 21 , /// .At.oc^aDaititjk^Jf. >= -V . V'v/./., - . 2-,2^ / Q '^So.'obviously this^ report ^that was issued at the ' -r' . i' f v ^ ;,v\ V 'i'v ' - :L /. ,- ^i<> \ 'ip i ^r--.>-1 ?.<&& J '', , '`.23. same time^ when those same-.--^diffrent samples, were taken u p .; , 24' -there by dr /}Ward; does inot;/reflect ;2,600 parts per/ billion of \;*i k'a t "JV\ ' : l r . I 2,3,7,8, isn't that correct? 2 A Yes, that's correct* - . , 3 Q As a matter of f a c t .the stable itself states that, 4 does it not, in Plaintiffsi -Exhibit, 1276? 5 A Okay, there is a statement that samples showed 6 previously peaks with isomers other than 2,3,7,8, that's 7 correct, 8 Q . So there is a statement on the table from the 9 Nebraska report that reported this -2,600 that says, "Many 10 samples showed previously .allowing .peaks which may be isomers 11 other-, than 2,3,7,8 TCDD". - . 12 A Right, v 13 Q So there is no way of knowing whether-- how much of 14 that 2,600 for instance-rris 2,3,7,8, if any of it is? IS A That's correct- ... * 16 Q And, Dr. Kaley, any xepresentation that may have 17 been made in this Courtroom or .other places that the Nebraska 18 report showed 2,600 parts perbillion of 2,3,7,8 would be 19 incorrect, wouldn't it? 20 A ; , Based bn the evidence:that I have, yes, that's 21 incorrect-... ..J*......... 22 Q Arid t h a t t h e . evidence; that Mr. Carr just put into . . 1/ - ' ' i-. r r' - 23 evidence, isn't it? You were here when he put it into 24 evidence, isn't'that correct? . 1 A 1 don't recall him telling me whether it was 2,3,7,8, 2 but yes, the evidence that .he has shown me says that there is 3 tetrachlorodibenzo, but not 2,3,7,8 necessarily. 4 Q The evidence upon which you rely in answer to my 5 question that a representation ,,that there was a Nebraska report 6 saying there were 2,600 parts per billion of 2,3,7,8 in the 7 sample given us upon what you .relied, saying that that's not 8 so because Nebraska was not isomer specific is the very 9 document that you saw here .today? 10 A Those documents and *the^fact that I had visited II Nebraska. 12 Q Of course those are documents .that Mr. Carr showed 13 you and put,into evidence in this case? . 14 A That's correct. *. 15 Q Now, Plaintiffs' 11ZG, sir, .the January 11,* 1981 16 memo of Dr. Hileman. ............ 17 A Okay, I don't have that in front of me anymore. 18 MR. JMUSGRAVEs ,Did you take ,,that back, Mr. Carr? * 19 MR. CARR; Not to my .knowledge. It's here, though. r ** t is" 1*f 20 Q- , ,Nowi Mr. Carr kept asking you if this table attached, 21 to`Plaintiffs' Exhibit 1120 didn'-t say that there was a finding 22 in spill -sample number three of 120 parts per billion of 23 2,3,7,8. ,,.D'o ;yo1u-ir"*e.member,;t*hose questions? 24 A Yes *f 1 Q And you kept saying,,-that's not what it says, it says 2 it;coelutes/ isn't that correct? 3 A That's correct* 4 Q Well# now, and* you referred to the first page of the 5 Exhibit, Dr* Kaley, does- it .expressly state on the first page 6 of this Exhibit exactly what you kept telling Mr. Carr? 7 A . Yes, it does. * .. *, . 8 Q And would you read that to the jury? 9 A Okay. It says.in this memo, "The isomeric configura 10 tion associated with that .peak .indicates the particular TCDD 11 isomer which coeluted with .the peak .in question. It does not 12 serve as a positive identification of that particular peak." 13 Q And that information .on the table is footnoted and 14 referred to right here and says the same thing, doesn't it? 15 A That,'s correct* .,, 16 Q And is it plain EnglishZ Can you understand it very 17 clearly. Dr* Kaley, when, you .read the body of the report that 18 is clearly saying that this is not isomer specificity, but 19 simply coelution? m *i r 20 A ' " 'YeS. * ' .~ ;i V :, ^ p nr `l. '~ 21 Q fairly easy/`to ,understand, isn't it? 22 A Yes. . ^. 23 MR.1MUSGRAVE:1;That'js all I have, your Honor. 24 Doctor, thank you. V' i-..J ` ;/ V'\- r*. V *-V , 'J--` 150 1 ,, .MR.' CARRS' ^Nothing,, your; Honor. I 'd like to call "3 - 2 Dr. Mieure back to the stand again*! .. 3 . :THE COURT: !okay.;\ V w i -/V `V , - - '4 , DR, JAMES MIEURE;, / , w\ - ,* ,r/ .5 .V / ! - ! (being recalled as an adverse witness under, '' ' 6- - 81 V 'r , ' .9 V ' , . Section 2rll02 lot1 the diidl Practice Act, k, having "l i. pr ev* iousl}.y bee-n duly sw_orn, "on o^a,,th ; testified, as fallows:) . k; ^ ' CROSS .EXAMINATION V v V ' V : /''' . .10 :V'." ' . '/* . ; ; BY CARR L > /' r- M ', -1'.: Q ? Doctor, you understand that your oath taken! previously 'still binds you at this time? .12 ! 13 a ; -\ YesV i do. _ ^ *.. r V. 14 - .(Plaintiffs' Exhibit 1279 was marked for i, is * . , . identification) * -- Q " .Handing you now what'-s been.marked Plaintiffs1 1 FORM IL s1 o - IT ,r Exhibit, 1279' ' .- . / > ... ; - " -r . . ; MR. CARR: And that JLs the Exhibit which has been P CNGAD CO;, BAYONNE, N.J. 1 a O' : ,v ,19 ' 20 . = previously,* identified as^Monsanto Exhibit 839, your Honor. - ^ ** i - , ` i- - , ( >* i L+ , J P K ;/Vf .. Xi * r*-u) -'* 5 1" i * ` ! *;? y* V ./ *^ i * J i ,f ' * ^ m * J4 V* ' _ '< ' '* ^\ --,, s * V V, L k . . -- No,' I 'm sorry, that's n'ofc-correctpreferred at that time but ;. 2 i : I don t - believe ^that 's ;i been parked before ;, 1 *. ' 1^ 22; qv - Dr.'Mieure, you recognize that--- V * / y* tri -l * r 23- ' . - MR. MUSGRAVE: :What'.8 the .number on this? ' -2 4 . 1* r. . MR.rCARR: Youfve forgottenalready? , . < ` ",,,* *r ,W ^Nm\>. `'k. "-'' ` 'v ' ^h ' l.^ "l ' l'* - :- " ' '- \,,1' v i . ^ 11 J  '; ' V. - 1 :'.;v .// ^ r - / ` ,V: . -- ; 11 ''-v-> A J-.: ' ' ?" '/ " > '/'/ / lJ `* V.V. ` r' / .l '>. ` - 1 . THE COURTs; Plaintiffs- 1279. "* : . -^ '2 . -Q You.,recognize that as a memo created by Mr. Ivory of .3', the Dayton Laboratory referring to .some testing that took place 4 for various products including, orthochlorophenol and dichloro- 5 :phenol? ./ li- ~ v . 6 A / The. subject says analysis of chlorophenols, yes, sir. '7 ' Q And parachlorophenols as ;well. ,You recognize that, '8 don't you,Dr.. Mieure?'/._./ :::/ / ./ / J` / / ; " -J .-;/ 9 ", 1 A. ''Yes, X do1. . r <- ^* . . j1 \ * ; io. rr MR. CARR: .1 offer that Exhibit into evidence and 1 I " ask leave, to pass copies; to .the -jury.^... ;,, 12. 1 " 13 - 1,^r (Pl.ai-nti'f.fs8'.Ex"hibit 12S.79, wa.Ls offer5ed into "4.,^ f Levidence.),/ /* ' / *. : \ ./ 14 ' / /'/ MR. MUSGRAVE: -Let me justhave a moment, your" IS 7 Honor. \/* - ..... .16 '' , r --THE'COURT:. Sure; get ahead./ , J 17 (Plaintiffs? Exhibit' 1279A was marked for ' .18 '%r /./ identification^)' > :" 19/ Q <tlYou:recogni2 e l279A ^as one of the. tables , Table 2' v -a ,. ' 2 that's in that Exhibit, Dr. Mieure? . 21 ' ' -a / / n /; //-;;/ . A 1/^Yes,Us i r , . /-,/ 22:1 , ../--'. ' r-,Mt^R*.C:A':*R.)yR';:/' ' Ii'UoinffJser.>!.*;v.X^2i>t7.'i9-and 1"279A. ,, ^ 23 . (Plaintiffs'.Exhibit 1279A was offered .24 , ' ./ into evidence, h - - f. ' * 1 PENG AD CO;. .BAYONNE, N.J. 07001 . fORM 1L JAB > , > t..~' ,rt ;.C.`y.' - r,w"r`.' - t. ' . , .1 152 1 MR. MUSGRAVEs . Have you iibt previously marked the, V 2 September 15 /1981 documents \V 3 4'5 MR.,CARR* Yes,/it is previously marked/ but this is 1 >' > x.'7* * , ^^ . -i * . s* *', f f ^ `^ `^ , 'I . ' ^^ not that document. *\/ / '; ' t ^ L . . V1' ^ 'V L ^ ^ "r ^ .. . r ' '1A* L ,. ' S^ M * O' k *L - - w * MR.. MtiSGRAVE: /But it embodies the same data, and.we 6 need to get that to make; sure of the references/your Honor, -7 with, regard to Plaintiffs1.11279. It refers to analysis of 8' products other thanorthchlorophehol or orthchlorophenol crude 9` and for the-same reason we have .previously objected,;we continu^ 10 to object to it being irrelevant and .immateriali ' 11 . ;THE,COURT:/ Same argument for 1279A? / r,.L /; .12 MR / MUSGRAVE: ?Yes,;4 & that .it does refer to OCP and 13 OCP crude, we. do not object;. . ,, r 14 - THE COURT: ' They are both admitted, over objection. 15 ; (Plaintiffs' Exhibits 1279 and 1279A were. 16 ../admitted into evidence.) . . 17 - . - MR.1CARR: And ask leave vto pasB copies to the jury? 18 19^ >, ;..THE:_COURTii Leave is granted.1 ?v':5iL 'K )i- i~/; BY MR. CPASRR:. ' s' <* ti- tf.r '-.'1'V::? " -- 20 i, 21 . * ,1 ^ . t . 't 4 '-r f , *,' ji^ "V *_ ' Q '.?'Doctor/ direct your .attexvtion to Table 2 of that i. 'f; VV fwvi* /-o O i >;-* *t>r`v - , " . Exhibit, if I might. Table .2 .refers to the dichlorophenois. ?2 - . .A Yes, sir//that.1s the.heading. . 23 [\ Q Yes. 'And sample 700.3 has dichlorophenol in that 24 sample, reports to have two .particular quantities of tetras, PEN GAO CO*, BATON NE, N.J. vx,' 'i.rv : J. ' ' l,,! . ^r . 153 >r 1 'doe*_s'it \*no-,t,`,,rVs>.'ilr_? 1^ Y`XY'i/k ^^ Y^'Y.Y^: .^ ' ;Y' Y1,,Y`; ^ `'- .Y*Y`j \ -- , 2 jv ;x A . There are' two figures given there in the footnote*; 7 V v' i%>-^ 'r -l Y Y ` ; ' 3 It is not clear to me vjhy there are two figures there* 4. J QV . Wel,,1l/p th# f^ootn,,o1te %,,tel.ls'.you_# F' ioo'tnoteA, t.el,lsyou > ; *4`" -.j * ,, V'*..V 'i' -J>L^*i ^'7 .*t n * 4 - .* '5 that the 4.5 is quantitation that was-parrled out .on an isomer : ; '^V; *1-1 J`` ^ ' -,-tl^ t . *` 6 other'than that in question/ does it not/Lsir? ; ;, . ,,1 ` ; \ A ; That's what the footnote .says. Y.v ' c Y l .8.1.`1 ..Q . ;Yes* And t h e b o d y f t h e report then tells you the ,,? ' standard thatwasbeing Used/Ydoesn'tY^tY sir? YYYY ' ; --Y io Y: ;A % I will have to read,it to see. I don' t see whero it .jiiV' does say what standard`was ibeing used; < ,* ..Y ; ;'Y'Y;" ' : Y 12 Q _ I/think you're right. A .ter reportwill refer to .13 the 'standard when we get to the September. 181 report which is ;i4 a repeat of this report/ we will identify it. But in any Y ;v_; V- '/ L' Y ' o . L.Y:" -V . " ^ 15 even't/ "*it-h4ir:sj/'Errxh1i*bi,t^ ds-o-es,;'sr*ho"w t-ha.tV1t^here were^. 9.5 parits per -, BAYONNE. /N.-j: 07002 16 j billion"of a tetra/ one orvffibre tetra, isomers detected i n l - Y Y V Y' `"-r^ .;,tY Y i- '17 * 1 sample 7003f 'isn't that correct/ sir? ; J: t . :Y ft H .fi n, ''^vY-rYV "Y. " , V ' \r- v '"-r - 18 - A; ;Apparently:..so. > Again/ 5I .am not sure whythere are ^ "` J/4 ^ > x _ .v' . ;j ^ ; r> `- - .19 "two notations' t h e r e \ \^Y.,.*s... S 1Y^ -' ,. ' ' Y ' - ' , **v%'-y t - fOf"i-'.ill' - -J. . 'O u 20 V-^ ^ Y Y 1 V <r .. ^ \ ;- Q Dr.TNieure/Vyou'wrote a memo on It; We: will, get to 21 it very shortly. ^You jactually wrote a memo/ and I think it is ! . ^-`Vv . --'.'.jV ,.'W';;i ^ *v f"- "v -. ; ,1 ' ,, 22 th^e-'*^--,-y* 'els-/"' iftr,^;ivs ^thetrnve;*.x't E.xh,ib.'itL^as,\aY->ma,tte'r^of fact '1 in 1' wh'r-iJch '23 '! you discuss, the shortcomings .of^`this particular report. And ,24 ;' fall I ask 'yputreally, right;now is that it is identified here .1- f- *. f-Y-^^-j.f'F'F r 'r-i *-4',, i p ^ ^ - 11 '-rf i ^\ -r - ,A \ `'1 f^' *r ` ^ >, v s ;\.-1>" - ~'''"**.> - r ' ' x' - - ./'xS'r-*~ v1J r '.v-VV`t.-f`T-t, "^r ... -1` .-.j\ -4'1* .. . . . .. ^ "n11*L -^ , ( ' ^ * ,V * 1 * 154 1 as 9.5 parts per billion of tetra sonars in the,2#4dichloro- 2 - - phenol that's been dialyzed# and I .will .how- hand you-- " 3^ (Plaintiffs*; Exhibit 1280 was marked for \ 4,,; / > 5' ;/v 1* ! , " V Q - identification,)/ . V" *y * 41 ^ * . . x % ' ` ^p" - 1 - vl ' , ^ ,2 _ ^ ^ i "V * v r ^ . ^ "handing you,whatIs been marked Plaintiffs1 ` 6 Exhibit 1280# and see I f y o u canrecbgnize that as a memo, that '1 ' you -Vw-r'oter-oh DocJem^b,erA t'he\30th`#,1-98"GN?I /'J V; ^ .J tt SJ - y Tin ^ - '- ^ ' 8 ; -X' /. Yes; sir# it is. ,/ /\ . T '` L ' r*lfc * t V. // '' ,v - 9 Q And it relates .to this Exhibit t h a t w a w a r e just s >- r`` / ''* \ '; " ` ' r-' /'.y 'fc. 10 referring, to # '.does, it *hot #lsir2. .-y. f ` :\.y ;/ ;'r y / xf\ ` A y 'J*''VeS#/.'it doeS.'C^-. 1'*''- ^ y ^ -y v /; 12 Q .. nd you make a Inumber of -constructive #ycritical - 13/ comments regarding that Exhibit# that/report, don' t' you# sir?. , ^"-V' v;/'/ ' " - . o -v 14. ' A \ Yes#'/sir. j^ :v ` * -i V-/.." ' ' - 15/. 16 17 t q ; And you sent that memo dated-- -- ..v. 1 't/' v ^ ^ - 1' '"-S V'-V-` . NR* CARR: Did J offer that into evidence? 18 r > v 1 9 ; .//// 20` into evidence. (Plaintiffs1 Exhibit 1280 was offered, into ' . "t;?/V -J-V V-W V - -r^ ; evidence*) y; .*''.'.v ' . 1.. ' ' .if.^a-j-*^V-'*?'i- 7i i i 21 'MR.' ^MUSGRAVE .v-'Thi3:J.s the December 30 memo? > '22 23J^ /-' ' -:^ r L .'-/> ' , 'y' ' ^MR. CARR: That's correct.; V p I- L * - ' ," - 3 - * ;k ' v*. "H t. ,, , "it , - +' k' i v ` ~Oj . 1r ^ I , v;y4 /'v.i'- y ,. l*-\ V'** " - T 4 4 y r f| 'r . ", 1 . * 1' ; / MR. MUSGRAVE: .To the extent it refers to orthchloro- 24 phenol and orthochlbrophenol crude# we. have nd^objection. \ To PEIUGAO CO.'. ,BAYONNE, N . J . 7,j -/*n.'-.-Vt'*`.>r-/J*^!V.*4i 1 the extent that it refers to other products, we object on the 2 basis of relevance and materiality and no probative value of 3 the issues. ...... 4 THE COURT: It is admitted over objection to the 5 extent that objection has .been raised* 6 (Plaintiffs1 Exhibit. 1280, was admitted into 7 evidence*) 8 BY MR. CARR: - ,. . 9 Q Dr* Mieure, let me hand you another Exhibit* 10 (Plaintiffs' Exhibit 1281 was marked for ir identification *J 12 Q Handing you now what's been marked Plaintiffs' 13 Exhibit 1281, do you recognise that as the same Exhibit but 14 this time with handwriting on it, do you not, sir? 15 A Yes, sir, that is correct* . . . 16 MR* CARR: I offer that Exhibit into evidence, if it 17 please theCourt.' A l.-j A :'A. 18 (Plaintiffs' Exhibit 1281 was offered into 19 evidence*') A . _.`. A , 20 MR* MUSGRAVE: .Some .objection, and also object with 21 : ^ ^ regard to the handwritten portions unless they are identified, 22 your Honor. 23 MR* CARR: I'll stand by.it as given to me, your 24 Honor* This is the way it was given to me. 156 > .l` - ^ ' -THE COURT:; X will adinit.it over objection. / " 2 1 r (Plaintiffs ? Exhibit 281rwas admitted into, \ ' 3. '/y eyidehcvf^ * - :y . ' V ;> * ; ; ' - -v S ;. ,4 ^ 9 `MR. CARE: lat ine see i f t h witness can identify th Lt / 5 handwriting. * , _ .' 1-1 *.'...* \ ;; 1 Q Do. you know whose handwriting that is? : , / ' *; .*' * - '' 7 -, 8,/ A ,./No/; sir, I am not sure whose that is. % , Q It's somebody -that comiDented on the-- -or was replying 2,, J- .,9 ' to yur various* critiquesr isnVt that, correct, sir? *t i-uo *- A:.lv `Apparently, Bo,vyes* v . ^ '4 *,* 1: r+-*, 1 ir' ; .7:` Q - , , And" in some places discusses and :states in effect 2. ' that sme of the things -that .you .were,'criticizing; have already ( i j 1.^ *' -1 ** *'''>*. ' ,i' ^ \_-r "* ' 13 - beFe_n* d-o.nae ,and the retesti*ng. 'has...be!e*n dotn,.e and rep-jorTte1d^ t o .y o u . /' t-/ *\ r -j 'hh ;-w^ ^l'L' "h 14 1 .fi1 .'vr V. v MR. MUSGRAVE a ^Just la moment, Mr 1 Carr. rYourvHonory t ; .>, ^''i.-v; u >y *-r ` ; \.+n , Nj 15 .v I'don*t^ know-whether the .Court .has ruled on that* Z>``r,, . ^, ''it;,i.-j ',J/ , "" Jv , .', - : 1r>i r ' ' .'bZco.r 16 s, r THE COURT: X did. ,1 taay have not said it loud" `' j j 1. "-Y'-'tL\ h *>_. ;-i /;Vi ft^7r&J *s ^.- ,,%\O0LTJ-1 1 17 ` ` -V- \ ; - !T^t nJtm < Vi', v-V ,- 'V5 Z. * ,18 ' . ,.;y v I MR. MUSGRAVE :,;Finef, ypu -oyerruled m ob jection? : -2Zu`c-,`, " : r '>r-'_ 'f./ \y*Y '''.'-y. > \ /'1-\ } '1':' T-' .. ' - i- L p <OEV * . 19-V "; ./-THEvCpURT: ' I 'm Sorry'if;I didn11 say ;it loud enough. :,,.yo>* i-,. .1o^ot*u'. ."'*j1 f'**s. 20 'I,. 21 . MR. CARR j ? And^cau'we pass this Exhibit? / ^ * - \/ - \ i ,THE. COURT: Yes, you may^ > iv/- . ^* - 22 BY MR. CARR:v ' ,1;. ;%y^rV> `" V . ' 'k - t'** 1-*' J ? '^1?"-t, * , i, \ w' --V r' * '1 > "S sT - J -, , t ` 23 *; 1 * *T " n` J ' Y UT. ^ ^ ' ^-* , - * % V 1- I ' I T'` t Q . ! Dr. Mieure, the first paragraph of this report you ' . "24 _ state that "th'methodology Appears to be flawed and the report- * L 1 ing format is so .ambiguous that you can't understand or use the 2 data, is that correct, sir? 3 A That's what it. says* ,,yes., *4 Q And in point of fact, you caused that to be reanalyzed 5 didn't you, sir? . ......... 6 A X don't know, sir. 7 Q You don't know? *. 8 A Uh-huh. ^ 9 Q Well, I will give you another.Exhibit then. 10 (Plaintiffs' Exhibit 1282 was marked for 11 identification.,) ` 12 Q Handing you now what's been marked Plaintiffs' 13 Exhibit 1282 and ask you. if.you .can recognize that as a memo 14 dated September the 5th,, 1981, and .this is, counsel, also 15 Monsanto Exhibit 839. Do you recognize that, sir, as involving 16 the same .samples? v.. , v-..- * .. 1j1 1" ^^ ; ^ *11 ,T .i - ' `r i 17 11 .MR.'MUSGRAVEs ` Also marked as what? 18 ,MR..CARRi '839-, .September ,,the 15th, 1981. 19 MR. MUSGRAVEs September .15th? 20 MR.- CARR:' That's what I ,,said. . 21 MR. MUSGRAVEs You said 5tth. 22 MR. CARR: And offez: whatever the number of this one . 23 is,1282, into evidence as well, your Honor, along with the 24 Exhibit that I just handed .the witness. .v rT ",.*, - !' *. -< v\ y rn\'( . -i' * -j . v >>.y 1 yy J.'"-/'' ' 'l*:' '' 1 lj i ^ i: ,, \ ' 7' ; V j y y y y v-,`>y y y y . y y y - v - . .' 1 23. i (plaintiffs* Exhibit :28Z was offered into - ss-. V'v:'u .-,-s evidence*) -`'-v > -S \ L-, v \ * s ;* t -V s - - \ \ , * vv`},"', ' < , - r, S: -- '! ^j,- . ; v THECOURT: Any objection? , * s ./ "' .S y, " ' * -*. ;S -- . r' 1: 'k 4 ... MR, MUSGRAVE: X v/ould only object to'it# your Honor# 5 ,again On the same grounds,to ..the .extent that it involves . '6 references to items other thaniorthchlorophenol and orthchloro- 11 -phenol" crude. : ! ", S'S ... \ y . .8 THE'COURT: Fine. It is.admitted over-.the objection . t f.m4 v'h-'r > , , 'I*r*- .v*'#J V' ' * ^p>Z "f, ' ,, , \ < , ,`T ,p'' 9 >: to the extent -that it Vs -objected. to. '. ,/y s: ,. 10 ; ' ^[Plkintiffs1 Exhibit. 1282 was admitted into 11 ^ : is a...;', evidence.;) - j 1^ ivi ,t> ' ' ./ ./V 12 ^ /MR. CARRi f And leave, to pass--- v- , f^ 13 V .' rtTHE COURT : XeV;`/-'' l - ' i `: - / / / '" .V 14 '/ r > ,--,'-;-MR. CARRi ,---- 1282 to the jury also*,, \ , * ,V>>- V : ` 'l . ! v 15 -THE COURT: ,Okay, heave J.s 'granted. w 5 ' r --V' - -, ijiLi\ ^ ^ ^ ' ^ 'i ^ uk*r , h *w * i/ c " k^L T^ 16 :- V Q \ ^pr;;;.Mieure# Ii.wht to direct your attention back to . ' i*" * v ,r ' / . ' , -' i _ /- 17^ th memo written by ^you dated December 30# 1980# that is '' U?', -, ' - 18 ' Plaintiffs'^Exhibif::r l 2 8 1 ^ ; i X. v , ' 19> yi ,'-i - A ,."v ; y y v ' ' V x .Okay f tik.^'rVijV^r1 ,v1 ' V i i / ' .y`V '.' - '; ., , ' ;: k X l l ' i t j t t :t- -, ' v ,J ;. ; *, .'*',, 20 Q : , All right. Now you jDy now have .had the opportunity 21 to compare:Ekhibit 1282 with Exhibit;.1280,, have .you not--- ': . 22' .,'127.9' it would^^be. ; :Cv,*y ,A` f' - L; .'' . ;.y. - 23 ' y ,:V A'"1 I *m s b r r y s i r . ifhat was lthe,question? - . ', / 24." r (* 1 "`-Ny^ ' L l'l`h f15 - , t ~ r' ' t ^ i '" Q y o u have had.an opportunity to compare 1279 and 1282# '*r , 1 , - .. * > <y - - < ,^ '.-Vi . : r- % r 1 '*1^ ' '- '~-. n-v'* - ( ::; - -:'?,*-_y -f;^'m-* V ^* *' '..St V,;-;>.. 'r " *t *s .' 1*. / Vr +1 , > _, p r< ' ' VsJ "* _L ,,,;ft,, ' 'v>`..L-^-.i;'^v',`'"'ft.1fs'",\;*,,,V,pt'`V. -'j `;'>iv->t `'JcV'/>,7^% `` , ; -, '''."j ,'- J 7' L. ^. ,i i t1 , ^ -,` ' r V w ,J,''k"ft-J' ' ` J11 , 1 1 -L ,^ -l * l that is the-memo dated October the 10th* 1980 and the memo / , I-*" " '.,< 2 dated September,15th> 1981, directing.your attention to Table 12 on both Exhibits. 3; j . '.' -H. , *, - r' ,r- ^ r .j . . r` '*- ; ,4- ' ./ V A : .Pleasef sir,;I Relieve you said a chance to compare ,5 Table 2 out of the two documents?" ,,^ ;-- ; , -J v / -_ 6` V- ' Table/ 3 put: of/;the'September 15th, *81 Exhibit,; it ' 7 . 7 /would b e .Table `3* ;V ^ r / v/ 1-' - .8;Vh MR. MUSGRAVEf What ^are you/asking him to compare, 9: ' ,i ,,Jj, 1 Tf 10 if ;JMr*.arr7/:'v/:"-' -J . 'L /J/ rf' ^>,,rs^* -Vv:*,* , V ^ VL*<r*-* *''- ,* 4/*''^-i1,4''* l.* '/`-/j - . \Z '/ ` *' 1r ^. - ' //. .V ^ llR. CARRs Table 2 in 'the .October .10 , 1980 to -> .^V1 ,'r'' " '/'V // . .,'V ^ *-!. -;/ ' '- ;Table 3 in the September.15, .1981- Exhibit* 2` : / ; -* 3l_^ ';,;a' .. 7' ' ; /;\V j V ,12 / ^1 TJ 1 ." 13 / .(Plaintiffs* E2<;hibit /1282A was marked for r ;''|/V.i.'/ >j/^J/-i,trden"tipf*i-c'i"aX't-'ioni).`f v ;; ,.- v V-Vt "J 'r L "> . 14" BY; MR., CARRS A .J ; . ;* ^ /'7 . " t r h,0j3 `, " isL \ -' ^QVr M'Aifi^r^MieufV^filaintifis^^Ekhiit 1282 is an ^ Vry ^ PENG AO ,CO,, BAYONNE, N<J, ,07002. "FORW 1L; 4 B %a.o..'^ 16i. accurate blowup of Table, 3 Xn .Exhibit 1282, is/it .not, sir? .* o*OO;1 ' -T 7 ^^ - 18. MR* CARR: ;I offer 1282A/into evidence if it please '-TJa:Z<zJc l^, 19 ; *` ,.' \ tti@ court ^ 1 1 7} -u. `7',.O fiY 7-7'/ ' J . d t f^*!*?'*,V-I. ; [(h y i r ^1ii; 1i',0au'L*. 20 / '/ V , (Plaintiffs* Exhibit 1282A was' offered into S!u42*"'f' **^* .,// / ' '/V-., / *".,/ =' ' "r > / /'" . ', j .'; 21 V /j/V if'-%.ev;dehce.X> -,,,V JC - 2T \ ^ ^ .e '.^ :'MR* MUSGRAVE: ,`Same ^objection. - v / //; // , ,: ^ / /.; ; y.. X>; '"L 23 ; L ; ' ^Lfc /' THE COURT: ' Same ruling*/ /: - * -* -71 \- 1 ./ ,/ ` / ' 24 " >* '//./// ; (Plaintiffs* Exhibit' 1282A was admitted ;into ; -.'v' '/ `r >' -',,7V-."7 '/ -/. /. ^ , / '7 7 r''` `.` ` - _ 1 *,;* , - "l,-''--V ,,v ? .,-*/ j -t - Mb-"/'-`>"< . '1 * ' u "> i;.'i ,. -, ,.V.J'1'- 1' `,. - f ' .^-,V. '.', :,.- ' ..- - 160 1 evidence'*). 2 i ;. 3 / / 4: :.'5 BY MR* .GARRi v j ' 'A * r V Now, Doctor , once., again this; Exhibit 1282A, Table 3. : 's i , . l3 ; refers to '9.5' parts perl billion of a .tetra, doesn't it, sir?. .* % .\ _ ; r--f >. J . In one sample apparently, yes, uh-huh* 6' Q; Apparently, yes ,.it jdoes.does it not? t7 \ r /; A / in,.onejsample*- -:r '/* VlVv/v*' ./. *\ : - '- 8'; ,,..Q. - And in' this report, that .is .the Septembor. lSth, 1981 ' 9.1 report> the standards used .are identified, ,aren't 'they, sir?; ' . ,0- / ir "" 1. A , X don11 know*'; 1 .*./.* :`l' ;; / - . , Q /'Well, would you look at the report on the second pa'ge^ <. 12I Page No* 2/ land see if they "do .hot identify the standard used '1'/ .13 * n' ` \ , 14 in 'identification process,,,the, tetra standard; being the 2,3,7,8 "tetrachlorodibenzo-p-dioxin.,;1 V \ ... , 1/ - iC L /"' *5'. V' A ;*v* iYes, 'sirvt That's^what iTable .1 says* *.f '?' }'-'ll1'f -`'I-.-'If`l^ ' 'V-V `" ,. ' ": ^ V : ' '"if ./ - , ;1 16 : , / So.that deficiency thatyou pointed out existed in ' J r,V '-s if*V. .'?*-T-l-f ` , -7 *rv - . - v- -* 17`:' the October-10th>, 1980 memo<has!been satisfied, and he i s ,now. r ; 1 . / ' K 1: : y . 1 - 1\ J -> i -is/ identifying the standard used,^is he not, sir? V - '.^^.dyfJfiVVy n'/^<i-- '-/i-.v.*T W/-i/W ' .. -v' \< . -l 19 L ..' A -;-Apparently the standard, ! havent read this in.. * . >/ 1_r-' 20 ; detail^: sir> but according .to\what .you asked me to read it, ; A* ' ' :1/1-, 21 would appear that a standard vhas been identified^ , '', 22 , 1 Q .Well, read it and make sure that I am not misleading -/,,n. ` ; .; . " '' ' . '.- ' - -j.ri % ` .' w *" ` ' - `*23. you. Dr.; Mieure, that theratandard table one describes the 24.' standardslused rto identify.,the :various .isomers in this Exhibit^ - PENG AD CO ml. BAYONNE." N*J. j - -*' 1 ;v .'1sf - ..m ;''%/ ;-;; - v*-.v*. * * - 161 1 `* % ` MTU MUSGRAVE: /He 'answereid .that, Mr. Carr. 5 -" , - -2 3 ! ` 4.' 1" t-lR; CARR:/ He/said apparently. I don't want any' ' A" ." /- '''' ">/ I" " ( L-`V ^" l.-^' ;' J- * j v r` L~ ` T- v,* " ~* - ,, - v ^ \^ ,, ^ .. t v apparently . I V7ant him to :;say .yesor no. X want him to be 1 'f -cr^ 'rV ` ' ,/,"-i .h *'4-J ' 'j-t.` , *'''.`" firm onit. I don't want .any apparently business.-' r 1 5 / 'A It. says that these are the standards used'in the ' / r-6 . ';,J .7 .. $ spiking sdluibn and you. are using the terms.to identify, and p,r j >J *` ' V * -1 * 4 * ,* ,,^ ` L t tr- i 1, I. , ' 1 F .J I testified previously that.we weren' t able to identify the ; Y \ V; ', u .'*> - ` 2,3;7,8 'isomer; / ; ///;/%!. 1v a/ 1 ^ : -Y: S- /; ' , 9 ' 10 'i 1 ;v- ,if Q I d f d n 11 ask you that question. What:you said was > "\ ^ ; W. 4r y /these, were the standards! used in :the identification"process; or, . -W'vV:, \ *' ' :: 'V ','- in identifying the .tetras .that had .existed. You had' the- " / ' ^ 12 vr 13 standard/ the 2,3/7> 8 standard,,and that1s what you: used to identify. ,-w;- _L ' */' --- L14 A, No,, sir. .That^s what waa used to quantitate.. - j' , .* J-/ f t y ~ ? "Ji ^^ '* 4ia"*i/. ;'* - * : ^ 1 V ; ' .<" \ : .-is; ,,/ Q {t/^ d ; w h a t J.standard^dld' you use to identify? ;^ .t . 16 /. -17 v a ' r?The mass .spectral-pattern was used. . ; 1 'r$;:^ $'lV v;.Vv?;%y\' `<y<'u-:.J^ ' * - ' *v *^' .r Q You didn't u s eany standard to identify.^ .You compared BAYONNE, N,J. ' ^ 18 the peaks tthat/ you /gotton +this \cstdndard, the,.2,3,7,8 peak o n . 19 this standard when you put in your /spiking solution in the s 20 ' '' v'" 21 chromatograih with ,the peak .that .you .got in the sample tested, 5 ; r^,my . r` * did you- hpt/':Bir?- '_/' \ ` `' J' V : 22 N* You cbmpare the inasa .spectral characteristics, sir. V 23 . Q And isn11 that,what .you did, sir? tJ , ,, .t a :., /'' l'., [i\.r H. -t.. ' -f 24 . A /; That'is not What -.1 did', ho. - This was work done in 'p`r* *k *,fc .' Vi^v," ` 'i' - *' * <* { '` t ^ - *. "-"V -i V^( .j'_^i( ' 5r (*i mJj . .,v, ,r"- . 14j / - * r - "V'1^^ J* V3' - ^ .* * ** ^ ^ f' 'i .- \ -t * ^ - * t_ *v - fJ'r;'* * _ j \ '% , 'o r 1 \ ^*^- ^ V- ^ - ^. -, ^ - , , -^ 1 Dayton.- /.,; -", y -" "- ' \S -hy #, - ~ S i.ijJ '* ' r* "-s'.' ^ % *, 2 ' ' '* 3 ' 4 ,/- Q Dr. Mieure, when I say you/ when you know that you ;~"V, \ '.... , ` '.. U'''''';.. ` 1 `f;- ,, were not personally involved, you understand that I,was talking about Monsanto.and its personnel?' -, . ; .' V 'jl' * *. 5` . '.,MR. MUSGRAVE s -Mr.,'Carr, that1s ..not always true, sir, : -6/ and I* think the witness is entitled to have you specify when 7 r; you are talking about him 1or Monsanto .....You flip-lop, back and . 8 forth .like n^igvh^t and day.n..., . *... .fV _- p , k - L ' k_ 9 .-- Q Dr. Mieure, is the-tetra ..standard that was used in ,10 this; report,the 2,3,7,$ TCDD. standard? 11 :--.1\ ' & ', YesV .sir. _ ``.,J; ';' - 12 , ,.. Q , And does he. so identify ;it as that standard? -, 13 ` A _ Yes, -sir. * " \ ^ f- *(J*D'/ /*'C oIk 14 t ,r Q .yxi the" 9.-5 per/billion, quantities in the tetra r. . ^ ts*? "i: v - * '. v ; . . - <- - 15 column/he-used the 2,3,7,8 standard to quantify that amount of P-* '/^ -> 16 ' ',tetra,. did h^not, sir?; X'l;-r ^ ^ 5 :-- ' V', -ooro*'r1 - z U22o1. A 4 ^ 17 "" He used the tetra standard to quantitate the' tetra. . * *- -^}..1'rV'-n*-*'-*,.j- f**J -*r*; r --1 - 'V -. ;' 18 Q Re used the 2,3,7,8 .standard to quantify the amount 19 . sof tetra that was in that material, that is 95, he- quantified 1oo Q r^'' , 20 -4 that using the 2,3,7,8 standard, did he"not, sir? > ur J 214. 'A Apparently so, yes. ^ ... , 22 . Q . .And .sb he said there are ,,9.5 parts per billion of 1 - 23 something in this material that coelutes with the standard that 24 'V we have, the 2,3,7,8, isn*t that correct*, sir? ' - ..'V! , _ -!\Jjs / J :v. 1 A I don't see where it .says that something coeluted 2 here, sir, 3 Q L Well then, don' t use.,,the ,,word coeluted. That it was 4 2,3,7,8 then? .... 5 A No, sir, X don't see,where he says that either. 6 Q Now, Dr. Mieure, what does he say with regard to the 7 identification? ~ .> 8 A He is reporting.9.5 .parts per billion .of tetra. 9 Q Ahd the only standard he .used to quantify that was 10 what standard? 11 A It was 2,3,7,8. 12 Q All right. And in using/the 2,3,7,8 standard, he 13 quantified that, sample as having 9.5 of the tetra isomer, .`V 14 did he "not? : y\ .-_ ;.y ,, . M l:"- ',[ ^ 'v-v 15 A Of the tetra isomer ^yes., . . ; 16 Q \ Now, Doctors that is .exactly what he reported but 17 without identifying,the .standard that he used to quantify it * i j. \ - . ! 'v>' < ' ? * * > x- - , 18 in the October 10th, 1981 Baport, .isn't it, sir? 9.5 parts per 19 billion tetras? ...... 20 A ,Yes, sir. m.- .* 21 Q Now, Doctor, referring if you will to your memo 22 dated December30th, 1980. , ., 23 A\ Yes, sir* 24 Q The second paragraph .of that , that is an Exhibit 1 1281 You say, do you not* "possible presence of chloro2 dibenzo-p-dioxin or chlorodibenzofuran impurities products and 3 processes of critical concern .to MIC, that's Monsanto, a 4 subsidiary o Monsanto? - .... . . . 5 A - Monsanto IndustrialChemicals. 6 Q And to all Monsanto*,. "Because of their concern, we 7 considered reporting your data to EPA as a potential substantia 8 risk, TSCA Section 8(e) until we recognize the uncertainties 9 in your report," do you say that, sir? 10 A That's what the words say, yes. 11 Q Now, the level of tetra that .was found in 2,4 di- 12 chlorophenol in the October JO, ,1980 report was 9.5, was it 13 not, sir?. ..... . i " : ;,**' :* ' ' * * *' ^~ i* ** ' *; * ; v ( v f . + 14 A'i ..One-sample, yes* -- 15 Q ( Anddt^was because Qf that finding, that report that * ** l,> .v! t,L -r *' fA tr. - /'* 16 you considered reporting, the data to the EPA as a potential 17 substantial *risk isn't that/correct, sir? 18 A I will have to,look .at the other data tables, sir. 19 Q Look at them, please,, sir.* 20 A Well, 1 don't recall exactly what prompted us to, 21 but that appears to be the highest .value of a tetra reported 22 in this report. ,, , .- \ 23 Q And it is the highest value of the most toxic sub 24 stance that could be in this material, isn't it, sir? 1 . A Well, the 2,3,7,8 would be the most toxic material. 2 Q And that's in the tetra column, is it not, sir? 3 A Ho, sir, all that's ,in the.tetra column are tetras. 4 Q Doctor, what was reported to you in October of 1980 5 was there was,9.5 of something in the tetra column, parts per 6 billion, is that correct, sir? 7 A In what time period, sir?- 8 Q Ojn October the 10th,. 1980. 9 A Yes, sir. Except it .wasn't .reported to me but it 10 was reported--- n Q It was reported to Monsanto and you pointed it out t t' 12 in your memo of December 30th that you at Monsanto considered r 4. . ,'* L* 13 reporting that data to the'.EPA as'a .potential substantial risk, 14 didn1t you, sir? VJr.* -- \'r' * ^ 15 A -- Yes>:sir.' 1 V \ . 16 Q ,And that was until you recognized the uncertainties i, 1 \ \ *i '< '; ' 17 in the report, correct, sir? i 18 A That's what it says.. 19 Q Sir? 20 A That's what it. says^yes.. 21 Q Now, the September 15th, .1981 report eliminated those 22 uncertainties, didn't it, sir? t 23 A I really don't know,, sir., 24 Q Liook at i*t and see. . Didyou write another .memo -A *^ I . .V-t,.!1, 3 1 criticizing it? i ' > 166 2 / ^fcT*.A^- was not; in\ this area doing this sort of work. a ;> - 3. t a 'i Q v / ook at the Septeinber.'ISthmemo and- see if you \ . 4. recognize:it arid; see if .there were any uncertainties, in there.- 5 .. A A ; ;^S^r ,' it was not my job responsibility to be reviewing 6 'this informaAti:.oXn...;,V.' . -A; '.k%ia i,.-_._./',' ..1. - ,AA rk1 "V'AAa ` ` .. i-a *L; 1 -7 - am, not saying;Jit;was^ "a A a . . -1; a .// r' '/ 'a / *8 , Ay;;; ,A . You're asking ine what i/didat this time and my job. ` V'9^ Q a I'm asking younow, JDr.fiieure, to 'lpokVaV'the/x A\ 10iv September 15tha 81 report and tell me whether or not the 11 uncertainti|es> the 1questionable methodology, the .ambiguous : 12 reports,, th^ equivocal data .was -eliminated. 'Now, Drv Hileman \C-li!CA* I \ x ;$5 -- Sy'r \''iff i''/ ' ,, 13 - testified ithat he worked. on xthis/one. X -'A'v 4^X7 ?,*X -- ` ` X r `- A ., . . H ;A > a 15 J r, f huh./ A, k~ ' V- ` , * x*/ '%* AA.A/ ' /" '/ v-'a \-/A 1MUSGRAVE:';;Wei1 your Honor, I would object to 16 a the questioL./y It now calls /for; this witness to take one" y/l'Li V'V i*r.V *^ \ 7 document and ,to, critique, it as though he were doing: it back at 'r"1 18; the time he would have "received ,it in ;181 based; upon ,a prior .19 critique. ; If the Court ^is .going,/,tp. permit the witness or 20 . require the Witness t b a n s w e r t h a t question, then I;Would - 21'v request that the Court give the witness ample timeto fully 22'L? review those/ documents if lb:. Carr is. going to. ask him that he -- -/ / ./;-^/.7//; '* . - / / -T .- .; v ^ 1 '. .. . .... ~ ^ tr * *' -.i . f -k 23. critique thse-things :after /some four or five.years since they 24. h-'ave beengenerated, andxheauthored them havingin mind What 07002 JFORM IL~*24B BAYONNE; j\: `A; ] his criticisms were at' the .time.,. 2 THE COURT: Objection is ,,overruled* The witness is 3 ,being given time right now .to review them* 4 A Okay, sir, and what jwas your question again, please? 5 Q Did the report of September 15th, 1981 meet and 6 correct the. flaws you found in .the report on the same samples 7 on October 10th, 1980?. 8 A It appears to,: yes* *. 9 Q How, Doctor, did you or did .anyone else know that the 10 uncertainties were resolved now that the data is no longer 11 equivocal, now that the methodology is not questionable, now 12 that the 'ambiguous.report xwas eliminated, did you report it to V t ' --' 'i .'-t 11 V . ' ,, r * *' 13 the SPA that you got 2,4. dichlorophenol that has 9*5 parts per 14 billion of .something in it .that .coelutes with 2,3,7,8 TCDD? 15 A Sir, as I 'veexplained previously, I was not in any 16 job capacity with Monsanto where this would be m y .function to 17 make stch a report. Futhermore, 1 was working under such a 18 different area that I wouldn't .know what Monsanto personnel 19 would have done at that time. . 20 Q If it was reported, .you believed, X take it, that 21 9*5 tetras, if true, was a potential substantial risk, did you 22 not, sir? ^ r. 23 A Not necessarily, sir* - . 24 Q ,, Did you say that in .your December 30, 1980 memo? \ .. 168 ,A X believe! used the.tefm^--let's see. r_ : `-Q-.'- You used the 'term, "Jbecause of this concern we' , ',' * ' ` ^` ' m" -r *r.* . , 1''1-'\ '' , j^ ^ ,, f- - ^ - ^i 1 . ^^ considered reporting your .data .to the EPA as a potential sub stantial risk until we recognize .the .uncertainties in your' report," isn't that correct, sir? v ; A -' Yes, that's;what,it says v ' I **..* 11 s * ' 'L"1 '. - * Q ; .And if the report was not uncertain, .you would have reported;it/ i take it,. td-the.EPA?.;., . ~ -A- ' No~, sir.- * * -r- : . '/; ,' V \ " ' Q'V No, sir? . . : , . '. .^ ' A . I don't-know whether..he/would or not, are you ' , '.-f? 5 * Vi .S ^ f r z fW ' . ^ r - familiar,with the[ 'TSCAVBielcprocedure? . ,v "* " . . ,:Q f';Yes, indeed.;^You" stated'that you considered it to .. U'; io; .at, w. .A- r- - . ., v> be a potential substantial .risk* , A -> .. C*4 'Q -/Potential' is.;the,'keyword, sir. V,- -'`-p1. i' l, "-V * ' 'V I . t". , *' v *. t - , - -1 ,, ` p .And> that's ,what you are^supposed, to report/ isn' t it, sir? Potential substantialrisk? ,- ; .^ A TSCA 8(e) stipulates,-that any time an employee of a company .that manufacturesJa.material corns .into possession of - informationwhich might even be suggestive that a risk exists, that that company or that individua1 then has the'obligation to go through an internal^reporting procedure and an assess ment to determine if a.substantial;risk exists, so it would have been my responsibility to report this to our Director of -'. f *v 1r fSi`- J ~ < **,. . T**'- *' k ," .' , .c 169 1 Environmental Op*era*.tions''wh/o would t,hr'e>n c-onvene -a commi**tte.e f J J 1 r-1.,' : *: -t j " v L_^ 2 which would consist primarily.of' representatives from our Medical Department to determine if a substantial risk existed* 4- .\ Q ./ Doctor/ doesh1t *your reference .to TSCA Section. 8 (e) 5 refer to a notice to the. Administrator of the EPA and not any 6 house business but report to the EPA? rj.A : '7- No, sir* L^ 8 lQ Would you mind, looking at .it?. 9; ; . . ;' (Plaintiffs* Exhibit 12831 was marked for/ ' 10 ^ ^ ' identification*,)- , -W , ; 11 Q , Handing. you ^ h i b i t ^^BS/. asking if you recognise ' 3f.-.i J !i'< l*. ' -< ' J V' J - J i JV* \ ( j` t ^: L .V 3.tI A >' .* '' ' ' . n' V ` V - ' >V 12 that.as^the .TSGA act :that .you referred -to in Section 8 (e) , l-T. 13 thereof /<You recognizeiit, Dr'. .MMiieeure? *\V 1;V <*'-&/V:! **^ 14 MR* MtJSGRAVEs Well,, may J1 see it, Mr. Carr? 4 , L .. -A.vt X^ T-f 1r'* rrVi-ft"l fV* if 15 MR.'CARR:V. Sure^ - 1 Sr - x ' *1" 16 MR. MUSGRAVE: lathis jnst a statute, Mr..Carr?. 17 Do you have ,the regulations that deal with this/,particular - 18 section, Mr* Carr?.' * v --.- / V\.V 1^ 1? . ' MR./CARR: No,i X don't, counsel. -, ' ' 20 // MR. MUSGRAVE t -Well ^ I think you ought to get them 21 and then if you are going to cross-examine this.man with 22 regard to what Section-8-(el means, .you ought to see if there .23 is any relation---- V ^ .. ., : C ./ . 24 L MR*. CARR: l am cross-examining this'man with' * v o -fn *7 * r- .^ `i ' .i*j : 070021 *\47' ~ ' '' 11"' 170 1 what he referred to in this Exhibit and what he said was 2- required-- -;' -/iv-A,- ?7 -7' 'V / ', \ 3 ^ MR. MUSGRAVE: -The regulations/ if there are regula 4. tions , are part of the statute. 5 MR, CARR: --.-and-bring them forth,'if .you want, to .6 exculpate Monsanto from their;failure to report this: Your H0nor7 it "is av.dereiiction >ofduty--- - : "v1 -7 7 .8. MR, MUSGRAVE: ,I object "to .that comment by counsel, 9-. your Honor , and I request .that you instruct the jury to 10 disregard the comment. >r . v/V 11 7. 7; KIE-COURT:^ Let tne^ seeithe Exhibit first. -- , 12 MR.: MUSGRAVE: The comment ..I have specific reference;. ; A &,' ..*$ f ' / i f i -.C f V - . v - . 13 to -is his' accusation "to,Monsantofsdereliction of duty. It 's '' n1 " j' ' 14 was totally improper ,, ~ - . U y- l : '/V U t.ir.v _ <: ^ 15 -THE COURTz Just a second. Your objection is 1" . , ^ -i *^ Ti " k t1 16 overruled. Would yougive-this back to Mr. Carr, please? ,V M BY MR, CARR: . f rU ^ ' ` '-A,/ J ' 18 Q Does your, memo; refer -to TSCA Section 8(e), Dr, Mieure^ 19. .v .A The memo, sir,prefers to .a potential substantial 20 . risk. L.t -Tfl nr' -* *rm* 21 Q Could you answer'that question, please? am e * ^ . M- , '1 i- "r ^ 4 ^ 22 A- . i just did, -sir', '7. . / 1> , . ; 23 Q Does it refer to ,TSCA Section 8(e) ? 24 A. / Yes, ,it does; I just told you that, - ,. *-j.-h1 -x-l,\7i . ""7 7V r '' ^ - -' 1 -vv; -Pi'. pEN GAP CO.. SAVONNE* N.J. " - /'- '';,,V' ',, V ' ' ` - v,,' ` -r 1 Q . , And "d, you have; in front .of\you a copy of TSCA v 2 . Section s (e)?. :, " - ,,.JV-y.^ v .V -V\ J\ 3 .. A The Act, yes* Not tile regulations. ; ' 4 ,Q You refer to regulations .dr do you refer to.the. Act 5 in your m e m o D r * Misure?** , 6 . A ; It doesn11 say;which. _ ......... .J ,-- 1 Q Well, Dr. Misurer it.refers specificallyto TSCA, .8; which is. your shorthand, for ..the Act, Section 8(e), does it not . 9 sir? _ '1 X 10 A But I don't deal-r-vr - .. r' ;. , - 2A-!;}r v;* .11 ,X ` q { 'V ; . i ' ' j, / didn't: ask you whether you 12 dealt -with;;or what you dealt with;. ; - : ^ 7 J*'\ , . ;vll -i^i 11 ^ X v -*?'T;iVr,. '' - .. .- 13, A . i don't refer to`either erne here*- I refer to TSCA 14 . 8(e)* It ;doesn't say whetheiXit ?is the Act or th regulation* 15' -Q 'T-S-C-A stands-for Toxic Substances Control Act, 16, : 'does itnot, :sir? - 1 ' *-`'V X 7 ' `v 1; A - 'Yes;, it does* X .X ;, -*;> X - . ` BAYONNE. 'N.J. 18 Q 1 And you refer to TSCA, Toxic Substances Control Act . 1? Section 8 (),'don't you,-sir, in your memo of October the 10th, 20J 1980?- "V : ^ X x ' > X ; ; / ; ; *,, ; X'X / w > \- 21 V A -The .memo as you are wellvaware I 'm sure is an 22 abbreviation* . ^ {V ^ ' ''LL 23 Q -Excuse me.. Would you answer that question, please? r* 1* r' t * / -*e. j., -.S'*. , , L b v it , 24, .X MR* MUSGRAVE : He is trying to, if you lot him finish ' r ' '` > S 1 ' '*1w ' 1 j' n * /> 1 1_ j * ( ' 4 . k V' J *, '* : ;; ' y/j, 1 ," 172 1 object*' - / /;/ : s ;.. : '-' - ` ^. . 2- COURT: Overruled* ^ ., \/;; - . 1 , 3 ; q Do you. refer to TSCA*. T - a - M 8(e)?; 4 ; A I make a reference to TSCA 8(e)* . * / 5', Q And have I given you a. copy of TSCA Section 8 (e)? 6. .A , You have given, me a copy .of the Act, butnot the ... 7 regulations. ; / < w .-/; r ./ -, ' 1 8 , Q Do you refer to regulations in your memo or to the "9 Act> T-S-C-A, stands for- Act# Dr; Mieur? 10 ' ^ A I.refer.xto TSCA 8 (e)*, but it is the regulations that [V< ' > * ij > 'yr' > 7 * \ . ? >'S' '1 *.v< ' 11 WQ deal;with;in everyJda:lifQ. J X . * t , ' -, ' . ./.' 12 . ,-Q / 'Doctor, i/m not asking ;you what you deal with. I'm ` 'lU.X\rv' ^- 13. asking you what you'refer >to .in this memo; and you .refer to : - ' t-V,r*^ ''f,? r 'V `2-,i`f" r* .-*/ ` ' VJ/- ' 14 TSCA Sectioh/8(e)-rr v* X / - ^ \ ,'t/ 15 / / MR* MUSGRAVE: Object* It's been asked and answered* 16' THE COURTS. Objection Overruled* . 17 'h .o. ,Yes, it has been answered, ... 18 . ;THE; COURT: Dryilieure, X,will rule on the objections 19 You have.no status to quarrel with .my ruling on an objection* 20 You are not the judge here and you are not a licensed, attorney, 21 in the State of Illinois. <.When I rule, you follow;, the ruling* 22 Do;, you .understand that//Dr*;\Mieure? 23- / ,A - Yes, sir/ /* ' ./l , > , - -,, 24 THE COURTx -How answer the question* . * -/ --- ./ n< -*- .`V `1 >/ PENSAD CO.. SAVONNE, N.J, 1 A Again? ^ 2 THE COURT* Answer tile question. 3 Q It refers to TSCA Section 8(e) 4 A TSCA 8(e), yes* ^ ^ ___ 5 Q And TSCA 8(e), 1 1ve ,,given you a copy of it, have I 6 not, sir? 7 A You've given me ,a copy of the Act but not of the 8 regulations* 9 Q , Dr* Mieure, would you answer the question. 10 :ii; did. i, 11 Q Did X ask you whether or not I had given you a copy 12 of the regulations? Now;'Hr* Musgrave is going to have all 13 day tomorrow to. ask you,those questions. I'm asking you this 1, 1; 1 S*1-j '* 14 question. Did X give you ra copy of TSCA Section 8(e)? 15 A No, I think you gave me copy out of TSCA 8(e), the 16 Table of Contents and one .page* 17 Q Did I give you a copy ofJTSCA Section 8(e)? 18 A Let's see, does it complete all of 8(e)? .y 19 Q Do/you see the Subparagraph (e) there? 20 A This appears to include all of 8(e), yes* 21 Q And I gave you a copy of .that? 22 A Yes, sir." , 23 Q . And does it say notice of administrator of substan 24 tial risk? V i 1 , f/ J `> " ' i*, 174 '1 1" 1 -* - * - X 1 '. A j Those are the vords^iyesr, sir . fc 4, ; " 2 k Q . Arid the administrator referred to is the Administra- 1 ,* -^ ,,.7 *- 1 J' \ '' - >,k ' / fc`' < . ^ ^ 3 tor. of t h e E P A , i s i t n o t , s i r ? .. .^ f 4 A would, assume, so, yes... , - ' 5 .' Q Doctor, at the. time .you wrote this memo; you /"* \. 6 .,. considered that--- we considered reporting yourdata to the EPA, - . '.7 and by EPA you1mean the Environmental Protection Agency, do _8 9 ;''Ip/. you'hot,-, sir?' L , ,v " -iv. T^-v, '' L. ' ' ~' * ," J* ' V - . 1j . ;AV . That' s the reference, /yes. * ?-r'.;'tT it- j.f 1 '{f * ' \jm'f j ^ ,O L i- j?,i Vpy 1-, - , . ^ 1 ' Q V '' And you were talking -ahout reporting the data as a ,' , 11 12 13 potenti:?substantil/risk under; this particular Act, isn't ` t <VV ;**.' Ji s'. v-r - *, , -, ^ that correct, sir? .\ _* 'V:i''~V^ ^ J':^r^'* V . r- - \A/ ^That's the reference- v , r,, i . ., .1 ,,14 Q . Is. the answer to my .question yes, that Is correct? .:V 4 13 ; .A ''.Yes*'- , -, , ; V - ' . ' . - ' *.a*O. LJ``'-1',6, , (. Q And, Doctor, you didn't report it because, "we -,,3hOo l 1 17 recognize the uncertainties .in your report," isn't that -2 u ` 18 `correct?.^ '2 . ^ .1 ' -I, 19 \ A That's oniy small part of why it wasn't reported* *Ov -* ,1*1 ,v 20, < u * Q I'm asking you, isn'.t that what you said, Dr. Mieure, " 21 in this meino of October 30, 1980? ; . ' - 22 23 \' 1 24 ^k MR. MUSGRAVE: You want to clarify that?. You want the exact words as th read in .the mmo or you want him to tell you what ,1die-merao .says, Mr. Carr? . ' -/ 1 if i`>.* *; 7 r." ` v`i- . ,. C < - -vj- .v:;''.' ,-`.`fi1 ^*,^v-*'* rf-j'/ j 1 - 175 1 BY *MR. CARRiv A-' .'.V' '* :V'- ` ' ' 2 . Q ./ Dr. Misure, did you ,,say we,considered reporting it 3 until we recognize, th uncertainties in your report? 4 Th memo says?because .of-this concern we consider--- ^. j "t ^ , 5 / . v Q j^ me, DrV. MieuEQa .Would you answer that - .- - 6 question, please, sir? ^ - ;.. i , ,, ; ^ 7 " ;. A' I told you there were .several reasons. . 8, .MR. rCARR: . Your Honor, would you direcfcthe witness _ ` , "_ "*'j 1 ^ ^ ` / '1 ' . -4 , 1 J* " 9 to answer5that question? v.Ithinkrhe can say yes he .said that .10 or no he didn't say that, v ,, ... ,j v 0'-., ; j^ * - , , ` ' U : : ; r THE^CQURTr ^Answer thequestion. . _ > 12 MR. MUSGRAVEi .Your -Honor, if I may , Mr . Carr is 1, i-J s ',??; U 13 wanting, him to interpret the .memo on one hand, and when he " I4 doesn't like the interpretation, he wants him to read what the tj, - (l -J" w0B, ^ -* *16 words'say, and the witness can't do both. .. THE COURT: Well, I .don't think he is being asked to s0P0s,>. '17 Li do them at the same time,\and I .think ;the .question posed to him ,, is U ' -L is crystal clear, and he^ has to answer it yes or no. It is a |- . 19 question that can only'be .answered in .that manner . Your objec- S *. * . i*'^^ . 1* " :*Owz ' 20 : tion is overruled} Dr. Mieure, answer/the question. " 21 Th question again, Jsir, .is? , \ 22 Q Did you not say in this memo that you considered 23 l, 24 reporting the data, "until we recognize the uncertainties in your report,"? / 1, ^v -L ' : ` ` "T.,S -^ ; ,J, j , -J ` -. '- .,l 1 A That's a quote right out of here, yes# sir. 2 Q You said that#, didn?*t you? 3 A Yes# sir. 4 Q Now# the memo of September the 15th# 1981# you have 5 acknowledged no longer contains these uncertainties# isn't that 6 correct# sir? ' .. 7 A 1 don't know whether it contains all# whether it's, 8 taking care of all my concerns .or not# but in just the few ir'^V1 - \\ ,*<rtm n1 i.J ' f' 4 9 minutes;thatvii had; .to read this,/it certainly has taken care 10 of many of-those concerns# -yes. . <. * >j--' l " ' . -' . " k i I'vV.- ' 11 Q And'# Doctor# you have no .knowledge or do you have# 12 that the E P A ;was then reportedthe potential substantial risk 13 that would be involved with users of this shipment of 2#4 14 dichlorophenol in Weed-B-Gon ,or 2#4 .D or something else that 15 it might, be used in# or in the oil well .workers working with 16 it# putting their hands iii.it if it.is used in an additive of 17 that sort. Do you have any knowledge whether or not that level 18 of 2#4-dichlorophenol was ever reported to the EPA? 19 A I don't know whether, it was or not# sir. 20 ......THE COURT: Mr. Carr# is .this a good point at which 21 to quit? 22 . ;MR* CARR: Yes, your Honor. ^ 23 THE COURT: Ladies and gentlemen#, we will break for 24 the day at this time. X would remind you on any overnight "-* ..Vy--v {,,3 .' <.v.. ", -* \ v",*ii1! 1 breaks that you are not to read, listen to, or watchManything 2 about this case in particular or subject matter in general in 3 any of the media. Thank you for your attention and cooperation 4 We will resume at 9 $30 tomorrow .morning* The Court is 5 adjourned* . **___ 6 (At this time Court was adjourned for the day.) 7 '', -) 8 *f ; 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 PEttGAO CO., -BAYONNE, N,J, 0701)2 vf - 1 STATE OF ILLINOIS ) ) SS. 2 COUNTY OF ST. CLAIR ) 3 4 5 6 I, RICHARD P. GOLDENHERSH, Circuit Judge in and for 7 the Twentieth Judicial Circuit, hereby certify that the above 8 is a true and correct transcript of the proceedings had in the 9 case captioned: FRANCES E. KEMNER, et al., v. MONSANTO 10 COMPANY, et al., Cause No. 80-L-970, heard on April 9, 1985. 11 DATED this w O ^ j d a y of April, 1985. 12 13 ENTER: . 14 15 16 RICHARD P. GOLDENHERSH, Circuit Judge 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24