Document ayN1Zxz71oBmenEDR2xJ56MR

IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT FOR THE EASTERN DISTRICT OF TEXAS BEAUMONT DIVISION 1 CECIL SCOTT, ET AL 6 V. C.A. NO. B-84-1103-CA 7 MONSANTO COMPANY 8 9 1 0 VIDEOTAPED DEPOSITION OF 1 1 PAUL GEORGE BENIGUS 1 2 VOLUME I 13 14 15 16 17 April 20, 1987 1 8 Gilpin, Pohl & Bennett 1300 Post Oak Boulevard, 24th Floor 1 9 Houston,. Texas 20 21 22 23 Cheryll K. LeFevers Texas CSR No. 1690/Notary Public 24 Nell McCallum & Associates 2900 Smith, Suite 104 25 Houston, Texas 77006 NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMONO019091 1 APPEARANCES; 2 3 For the Plaintiffs: 4 DAVID M. LACEY WILLIAM LITTLE 5 Gilpin, Pohl & Bennett 1300 Post Oak Boulevard, 24th Floor 6 Houston, Texas 77056 7 For the Defendant! 8 WALTER J. CRAWFORD, JR. 9 CHERYL D. OLESEN Wells, Peyton, Beard, Greenberg, 10 Hunt & Crawford Petroleum Building 1 1 P.O. Box 3708 Beaumont, Texas 77704 12 - and - 13 ROBERT A. JONES 14 Woodard, Hall S Primm 4700 Texas Commerce Tower 15 Houston, Texas 77002 16 The Videographer: 17 JOHNNA COALSON 18 Executive Services Group P.O. Box 890306 19 ' Houston, Texas 77289-0306 20 21 22 23 24 25 NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMONO019092 3 1 Videotaped deposition of PAUL GEORGE 2 BBNIGNUS, Volume I, a witness called by the 3 Plaintiffs, on April 20, 1987, at the offices of 4 Gilpin, Pohl & Bennett, 1300 Post Oak Boulevard, 5 24th Floor, Houston, Texas, commencing at 1:00 p.m., 6 before Cheryll K. LeFevers, CSR No. 1690 and Notary 7 Public in and for the State of Texas, pursuant to 8 Notice and Subpoena and the Federal Rules of Civil 9 Procedure. 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMONO019093 1 I 1L 2. 1 x. 2 3 WITNESS: PAUL GEORGE BENIGNUS 4 5 EXAMINATION BY: 6 Mr. Lacey 7 8 BXHIBITS 9 EXHIBIT NO. 10 1 - Diagram of a capacitor 11 2 - Diagram of PCB molecules 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 PAGE 7 gA9B 52 86 NELL NIC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. 4 HARTOLDMONO019094 5 1 IlOCEEDiNGS 2 THE REPORTER: Do you-all want 3 signature? 4 HR. CRAWFORD: Let's let him look at 5 it and sign it. 6 MR. LACEYi We have the same 7 understanding we had before: If we don't have the 8 signature page back seven days before we start the 9 evidence, we can use a copy. And we'll do the same 10 thing on documents; which is, we'll refer to the 1 1 documents by the unique number identified by 12 Monsanto to the extent they're Monsanto documents 13 but we're going to drop off the SCM and any early 14 zeros that aren't part of an integer number. 15 MR. CRAWFORD: Okay. 16 MR. LACEY: That's the same thing we 17 did Friday and we did Thursday and I guess we did 10 with Dr. Emmet. 19 (Discussion off the Record) 20 THE REPORTER: What about objections? 21 MR. LACEY: Reserve what we can until 22 the courthouse, I'd say. 23 MR. CRAWFORD: Just, yeah, under the 24 Rules. 25 MR. LACEY: Yeah, that's it. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMONO019095 b 1 MR. CRAWFORD: Yeah. 2 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: This deposition is 3 being taken in Cause No. B-84 -1 1 03-cA; and it is 4 filed in the United States District Court for the 5 Eastern District of Texas, Beaumont Division. The 6 style of the case is Cecil Scott, et al versus 7 Monsanto Company. 8 For identification purposes, the video 9 technician is Johnna Coalson of the firm Executive 10 Services; and the certified court reporter present 1 1 today is Cher LeFevers of the firm Nell McCallum & 12 Associates. Today's date is April 20th, 1987; and 13 the time is approximately 1:26 p.m. 14 We are here today to take the oral and 15 video deposition of the witness, Mr. Paul Benignus, 16 we are located at 1300 Post Oak Boulevard, Houston, 17 Texas. 18 At this time, will counsel please 19 state their appearances for the record? 20 MR. LACEY t David Lacey representing 21 the plaintiffs. 22 MR. CRAWFORD: Walter Crawford 23 representing Monsanto. 24 THE VIDEOGRAPHERi Will the court 25 reporter please swear in the witness? NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMONO019096 1 PAUL GEORGE BENIGNUS 2 having been first duly sworn, testified as follows! 3 4 EXAMINATION BY MR. LACEY i 5 MR. LACEY: For the record, I 6 understand that Mr. Benignus is appearing pursuant 7 to our Rule 30(b)(6) notice for a corporate 8 representative as to the natters of advertising on 9 dielectrics, marketing on dielectrics, technical 10 data on dielectrics, and the uses of PCB's as 1 1 dielectrics; is that correct? 12 MR. CRAWFORD: He's -- yeah, he's a 13 person designated under Rule 30(b)(6) by Monsanto 14 with knowledge on those subjects. 15 MR. LACEY: Okay. 16 Q. (By Mr. Lacey) Will you state your full 17 name for the record, please, sir? 18 A. Paul George Benignus. 19 Q. And where do you live, Mr. Benignus? 20 A. Bellville, Illinois. 21 Q. Okay. You might slow down and let me 22 finish my question before you start your answer. 23 That will make a smoother record as we go along. 24 Okay? 25 A. Okay. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMONO019097 8 1 Q. Are you currently employed, Mr. Benignus? 2 A. No, air. 3 Q. Tell me a little bit about your education 4 after your graduation from high school. If you 5 would. 6 A. I have a Bachelor of Arts from Illinois 7 College. My major there was chemistry and 8 education. I have a Master of Science from 9 Washington University in organic chemistry. 10 Q. That's "organic" chemistry? 1 1 A. Organic, OR-- you're right. 12 Q. I couldn't tell if it was "inorganic" or 13 "organic" chemistry? 14 A. That always happens. 15 Q. Okay. It is "organic"? 16 A. It is "organic." . 17 Q. Do you have any subsequent formal education 18 following your Master's degree? 19 A. To some extent, but it's -- I didn't take a 20 Doctorate, if this is the question. 21 Q. Did you do additional course work after 22 your Master's? 23 A. I did some, yes . 24 Q. In what field? 25 A. Organic chemistry. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMON0019098 9 1 Q. And where was that? 2 A. Washington University. 3 Q. Did you complete all of the course work for 4 a Doctorate? 5 A. No, I didn't complete all of it. 6 Q. Okay. When did you get your BA degree? 7 A. 1933 . 8 Q. And your MS? 9 A . 34 . 10 Q. Tell me about your employment history after 1 1 obtaining your formal education. 12 A. In 1934, I was hired by Monsanto. 13 Q. And how long did you remain in Monsanto's 14 employment? 15 A. Till I retired in 1974. 16 Q. A period of 40 years? 17 A . Right. 18 Q. If you would. I'd like to have a very brief 19 summary of the different jobs you had at Monsanto 20 and what time frame you occupied those various 21 jobs. 22 A. I started in 1934 in the analytical lab, 23 which was standard practice. After a year and a 24 half or so, I was moved into a special analytical 25 laboratory, and I was there for about a year. Then NELL NIC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMONO019099 ______________________________________________________________________________________________ 10 1 I went into some plant control laboratories. 2 And in 1939, I was moved into the 3 organic research area, more specifically application 4 research. I was there until 1941, going on '42; and 5 I was then put into the organic chemicals division, 6 development department. And several years later, I 7 was in the organic division's sales development 8 department. 9 Q. About when was that? 10 A. It was prior to 1947. I would say it was 1 1 46 . 12 Q. That ' 8 in the sales division of organics? 13 A. "Sales development," not the sales 14 department, "sales development department." 15 In 1947, I transferred -- was asked to 16 join the inorganic chemicals division, and I was 17 with that division until the end of 1951 or early 18 1952, when I went back to the organic chemicals 19 division. And I was with that division, then, until 20 the time I retired. 21 Q. And from 1952 to 1974 -- would that be the 22 time frame? 23 A. That's correct. 24 Q. -- what sort of positions did you hold in 25 the organic chemical division in the rough time NELL MC CALLUM 8t ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMON0019100 ll 1 frame? 2 A. I specialized in the area of Aroclor, which 3 is Monsanto's trade name, or the generic name, 4 Askarel, which is a name that applies to dielectric 5 fluids that meet the underwriter's requirements on 6 fire resistance. 7 Q. So, from the entire period of '52 to '74, 8 you were working with Monsanto's Aroclors in the 9 dielectric area? 10 A. Yes. 1 1 Q. What positions or titles did you hold 12 within the company structure during that period? 13 A. I was essentially a -- a technologist - 14 technical specialist, technologist. 15 Q. Was that the title you held? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. Por that entire period? 18 A. Not for the entire period. 19 Q. Okay. Is that the beginning of the period 20 that you -21 A. Right. 22 Q. Okay. From 1952 until about when were you 23 a technologist or technical specialist? 24 A. Oh, until -- I would say sometime in the 25 1 960 ' s. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMON0019101 12 1 Q. Then what position or title did you 2 acquire? 3 A. Then I was called a "marketing manager." 4 Q. And that would be from sometime in the 5 I960'a until - 6 A. Retirement. 7 Q. Do you know whether that was a development 8 that took place in the early Sixties or the late 9 Sixties? 10 A. I would say sometime in the aid Sixties, 1 1 probably. 12 Q. Let me go back and try to understand a 13 little bit about the types of things you did in each 14 one of these jobs with Monsanto. When you started 15 with them in 1934 in the analytical lab, what sort 16 of jobs did you have? 1 7 A. That was working as an -- as an analytical 18 chemist. 19 Q. So, your first employment was in connection 20 with your specialty as a chemist? 21 A. Oh, yes . 22 Q, And what sort of things did an analytical 23 chemist do? 24 A. The analytical chemist analyzed the 25 products that were being manufactured. And this was NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMON0019102 l3 1 the organic chemicals division; so, it was the 2 analysis to determine the conformance with 3 specifications of whatever materials were being made 4 at the time, which was quite a number of different 5 things. 6 Q. So, you would get a sample of material that 7 was being produced; and it was your job to perform 8 the test to make sure it met the standard? 9 A. Correct. 10 Q. When you went to the special analytical 1 1 lab, what changes, if any, took place in your job? 12 A. It was somewhat more sophisticated. It was 13 a little bit more of researching as versus 14 standardized routine analysis. 15 Q. Requiring more training, experience, that 16 you had achieved on the job already? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. When you moved to plant control labs in - 19 I have roughly 1937. Would that be about right? 20 A. Yes, this is about right. 21 Q. What did you do in plant control labs? 22 A. There, again, as a chemist, I monitored the 23 quality and the -- the materials through their 24 process of manufacture. 25 Q. So, you're still looking at Monsanto NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMON0019103 1 products and making sure they meet the 2 specifications? 3 A. Bight. 4 Q. What plants were you assigned to in your 5 job as a plant control laboratory person? 6 A. This was the Queeny plant. 7 Q. That's located in St. Louis? 8 A. In St. Loui8 on South Second Street. 9 Q. Did you work at any other plants as a - 10 A . No . 11 Q. Okay. Now, in 1939, you indicated you went 12 into the organic research area, working on 13 application research? 1 4 A. Yes. 15 Q. Now, when we talk about organic and 16 inorganic chemistry, when we say "organic," we mean 17 chemistry that involves molecules or compounds th?t 18 contain carbon, correct? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. And "inorganic" would be ones that don't 21 contain carbon? 22 A. Yes . 23 Q. All right. What sort of things were you 24 doing application research on in the organic 25 research area? NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMON0019104 15 1 A. Specifically I worked on the stabilization 2 of a tribetaclorethelphosphate ester. 3 Do I have -- 4 Q. She'll get the spelling when we get 5 through. 6 A. Okay. 7 Q. Anything else? 8 A. Yes. I worked on things that dealt with 9 wood preservation chenicals; and I worked on things 10 that tied into plastics, plasticizers. It was in 11 those areas. 12 Q. Okay. Up to this point in your career, had 13 you worked on any of the chemicals that we refer to 14 as " P C B ' s " or "polychlorinated biphenyls"? 15 A . No . 16 Q. Okay. In 1941, you went, as I understand 17 it, froa the application research to the development 18 departaent of the organic chemical division? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. What were you doing there? 21 A. There, on behalf of the development 22 department, I was investigating matters of interest 23 to the people in the development department, 24 whatever. 25 Q. Can you give me some examples? NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMON0019105 16 1 A. Ye*. Probably the moat significant 2 example -- this was the time of the war. i was 3 assigned on behalf of the military to research, 4 develop, and find an answer to a very serious 5 problem to the Military. This deals with the fact 6 that military equipage -- which by and large is 7 cotton, also leather -- this material is susceptible 8 to fungal attack. And deterioration was very 9 pronounced and rapid when the Military -- Air Pores, 10 Navy -- had to deliver and transport military 1 1 equipment, equipage -- and I'm referring to 12 cotton -- into the war area, that now had spread to 13 the South Pacific, where fungus is quite a problem, 14 also, exposure to actinic rays, ultraviolet light 15 from the sun, and also to heavy rain exposure. 16 And these materials that were being 17 shipped down frequently were almost useless by the 18 time they got there. That was the assignments Find 19 something to rectify this. 20 Q. Did you find something? 21 A. Yes, I did. 22 Q. What was it? 23 A. It's patented. Copper 8Quinolinolate, 24 Q. What other matters did you work on besides 25 that one for the military while you were in the NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMON0019106 17 1 development department? 2 A. This was rather a large undertaking for one 3 person. It occupied a great deal of my time. Other 4 matters, at this point in time/ I did do some work 5 that did involve PCB's. 6 Q. What did you do with regard to PCB's? 7 A. On the PCB's, I did some analytical work, 8 helping to verify and/or establish or suggest 9 adjustments in various, mainly physical, constants; 10 such as, density, refractive index, various other 11 physical constants; not electrical measurements. 12 Q. When we talk about a "physical constant," 13 what do we mean? 14 A. A "physical constant" is a physical 15 property that is characteristic of the given 16 substance. It is characteristic and constant of 17 this material. 18 If we are talking about one specific 19 substance, it is, indeed, rather well in conformance 20 with this word "constant." If we are speaking about 21 PCB's, we are not speaking about one specific 22 substance. We are speaking of a very complex 23 mixture of many items. 24 And although the word "constant" is 25 used, it gets involved with trying to keep this as NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMON0019107 L8 1 constant as possible. As the refractive index, for 2 example, the density -- not so much the viscosity, 3 but I can name other properties. 4 They need to conform with one another 5 in order to get an overall appraisal that this very 6 complex thing, mixture, that we have here is, 7 indeed, within the limits, the framework, of what we 8 want produced when we chlorinate their percentage by 9 weight. 10 Q. For example, are these physical constants 1 1 things that the analytical chemists back in lab 12 checking a product might look to to make sure the 13 particular production is what's sought? 14 A. Exactly. 15 Q. And in this case, you were actually helping 16 to either check or develop physical constants for 17 particular PCB ' s productions? 18 A. Yes, in essence. 19 Q. Anything else that you did that you haven't 20 told me about of any significant proportion with 21 regard to your work in the development department? 22 A. Oh, really not, no. I was there during 23 these particular years during the war. 24 Q. Has this work with PCB's in the development 25 department, the period from '41 to '46, the first NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMON0019108 19 1 time you had worked with Monsanto's PCB production? 2 A. This is correct, yes. 3 Q. Did you work with the production from a 4 particular plant? 5 A. No. 6 Q. Do you know where PCB's were being produced 7 at that time by Monsanto? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. Where? 10 A. They were produced at Anniston, Alabama, 1 1 and at Monsanto, Illinois. 12 Q. Okay. Is that also what's known as the 13 Krummrich plant? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. And I've also seen the -- a notation of 16 Sauget, Illinois? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. That's all one and the same place? 19 A. One and the same. It's in Illinois, across 20 the river. 21 Q. Then I guess it's also near East St. Louis; 22 is that correct? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. We've got a lot of ways to identify that 25 particular plant? NELL NIC CALLUNI & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMON0019109 20 1 A . Yes . 2 Q. Did you go to either of those two plants in 3 connection with your work in looking at the physical 4 constants for PCB's? 5 A. No. 6 Q. In 1946, I believe you indicated, you 7 started working with organic sales development? 8 A. Yes . 9 Q. Now, what did that involve? 1 0 A. That involved -- it was a carry-through of 11 this development of the preservation of military 12 equipage . By now, the war was over ; and I pursued 13 sales development of this process. 14 Q. Finding somebody else who could use it? 15 A . Yes . Right. 16 Q. Were you successful? 17 A Yes . 18 Q. What sort of products wa s it used in? 19 A. It was used in the preservation o f cotton 20 as with the military; for people that made tents and 21 things like that, awnings and so forth. 22 Q, Is that the main work that you did in that 23 development area? 24 A. Yes. I was there just about a year. 25 Q. Long enough to get that particular matter NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMON0019110 21 1 taken care of? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. Then you joined the inorganic division in 4 '47? 5 A. Right . 6 Q. What sort of things did you work on in the 7 inorganic division? 8 A. PCB ' s . 9 Q. Okay. 10 A. Organic aaterial . 11 Q. I was going to sayi PCB's are organic, are 12 they not? 13 A. They're half organic, half inorganic, 14 depending on what you're talking about. 15 Q. Well, each molecule of PCS has carbon atoms 16 in it, does it not? 17 A. oh, yes. 18 Q. And, so, by defining a particular chemistry 19 at being either 'organic" or ''inorganic,'' concerning 20 whether there's carbon in the molecules, it would be 21 organic, correct? 22 A. Correct. 23 Q. And generally PCB's were produced in the 24 organic division of Monsanto, were they not? 25 A . No . NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMON0019111 22 1 Q They were produced in the inorganic 2 division? 3 A. They were produced in the inorganic 4 division. And -- originally by Swann Chemical, 5 which was inorganic, and later got to be the 6 inorganic division at Monsanto. 7 Q. Okay. What did you work on when you worked 8 with PCB's while you were in the inorganic division? 9 A. When I was in the inorganic division, my 10 specific assignment was to work on PCB's in the 11 nonelectrical areas. 12 Q. And what did that encompass, nonelectrical 13 areas ? 14 A. Nonelectrical areas encompassed, as it - 15 as it's implied here, nonelectrical applications 16 that -- whatever was in that area of nonelectrical. 17 Q. Well, can you tell me what was in that area 18 of nonelectrical applications? 19 A. Initially, early on, PCB's, perhaps their 20 earliest use was as a plasticizer for nitrocellulose 21 lacquer. 22 Q. What else? 23 A. And for varnishes. 24 Q. What else? 25 A. They were used in adhesives. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMON0019112 23 1 Q. Anything elaa? 2 A. Sealing compounds. 3 Q. Anything else? 4 A. This is covered in -- in literature and 5 bulletins. I'll go on if -6 Q. Well, if you could, just tell me what you 7 recall . 8 A. We could go on indefinitely. 9 Q. Oh, there are -- there's a long list of 10 uses? 1 1 A. Right. 12 Q. Okay . 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. Well, I -- I will have you look at some 15 literature and help me understand that later on - 16 A. Good. 17 Q. -- and maybe we can go back and pick that, 18 up then. I didn't know if there were just a very 19 few uses -20 A. I don't want to go on here indefinitely. 21 Q. Okay. There was a very long list, however? 22 A. There are many different, some 23 insignificants. I -- I've covered significant 24 things here. 25 Q. Okay. What is a "plasticizer"? NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMON0019113 24 1 A. A "plasticizer" is usually a liquid. There 2 are also solid plasticizers. These materials act 3 as, in a sense, solvents for resinous materials, 4 which are solid. And to make these solid resinous 5 materials into the torn one wants, such as a film or 6 a coating, like I said, a lacquer, nitrocellulose, 7 you must introduce a material that will soften this 8 solid and make it into a continuous film or coating 9 and so forth. 10 Q. In your work on PCB ' s in the inorganic 11 division, were you helping to improve the use of 12 PCB's for these types of products? Were you 13 developing new uses, or what were you doing with the 14 PCB's in these nonelectrical areas? 15 A. I would say both of what you mentioned. 16 Q. Okay. First, what new applications were 17 you working on for PCB's? 18 A. Really no new applications. I was pursuing 19 applications, some nebulous uses. But I didn't 20 invent new uses that I would say that I invented 21 something, like I told you I invented certain 22 things; but I didn't invent new uses for PCB's. 23 Q. Well, maybe you can just describe for me 24 what you physically did, then. Maybe that's the 25 best way to understand how your work progressed NELL NIC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMON0019114 25 1 during that period while you were in the inorganic 2 division. 3 A. I physically -- well, not "physically" - 4 mentally pursued applications for which PCB's were 5 u8ed . 6 Q. Hell, you told me you didn't develop new 7 applications. So, what did you do in pursuing 8 existing applications? 9 A. To try and get acquainted with them. I 10 didn't invent new uses, is what I am saying. 1 1 Q. Okay. Hell, were you just assigned for 12 that period of time, from '47 to '52, to spend your 13 time learning how PCB's were used? Has that the - 14 A. Essentially. 15 Q. Now, what -- what was the purpose of 16 Monsanto having you spend four or five years just 17 learning about how their PCB's were used? 18 A. This is it. 19 Q. Just an educational process for you? 20 A. No, not just for me, but in -- in general. 2 1 This is a business. 22 Q. Hell, were there PCB uses that Monsanto was 23 unaware of when you started your work in 1947? 24 A. (No response) 25 Q. And by that, I mean were there customers NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMON0019115 26 1 who were putting PCB to uses that Monsanto did not 2 know about when you started your work in '47? 3 A. This could be, but not to a significant 4 extent. This is one of the reasons I told you I 5 pursued uses. This is, indeed, answering your 6 ques tion. 7 Q. Yeah, I'm sure you are; and I'm just having 8 a hard time understanding exactly what it was you 9 did in pursuing those uses. 10 I mean, were you rewriting literature 11 to make sure it properly explained uses or 12 conditions for use? Were you finding ways In which 13 to mix PCB's with materials for their use? 14 k . No . 15 Q. What sort of things were you doing? 16 A. Essentially, to answer this question, what 17 I was doing was presenting physical constants, 18 physical properties, physical data of PCB's, 19 which -- .that -- that was essentially it. We did 20 not use them. Others used them. 21 Q. So, you - 22 A. One example -- let -- let me try to be 23 specific more. 24 Q. Please. 25 A. One example, we spoke of nitrocellulose. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMON0019116 27 1 for instance, as one of the early uses. Now, one of 2 the things that I would have pursued and been 3 interested in and in helping with is the development 4 of compatibility data, when PCB's of various members 5 of the PCB's -- whether they be solids or liquid - 6 when these things are incorporated into the base 7 plastic nitrocellulose, what kind of compatabi1ity 8 parameters can one obtain and should one expect, 9 because whoever is going to use these needs to know 1 0 these parameters to know how he can -- to what 1 1 extent they can be incorporated. This kind of 12 things, viscosity data and physical properties, yes. 13 Q. So that, as you developed information on 14 physical properties about particular applications, 15 that information could then be made available to 16 people who might be thinking about one of those 17 applications - 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. -- or trying to improve it? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. Okay. Did you do anything in the inorganic 22 division other than work with PCB's? 23 A . No . 24 Q. So, if I understand what you've told me 25 correctly, from 1947 through 1974, for all practical NELL NIC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMON0019117 28 1 purposes, your work at Monsanto was related to their 2 PCB products? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. Monsanto was the sole United States 5 commercial manufacturer of PCB's during - 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. -- during that period of time; is that 8 correct? 9 A. Always. 10 Q. Always. Okay. 11 You mentioned something about this 12 Swann Chemical Company. What can you tell mm about 13 Swann Chemical Company? 14 A. Swann Chemical was the Anniston, Alabama, 15 plant which was acquired by Monsanto in 1935. 16 Q. And was the Swann Chemical Company the 17 place where the commercial manufacturer of PCB's in 18 the United States began? 19 A. Yes . 20 Q. And did that begin before 1935? 21 A. Yes . 22 Q. So, they actually developed the process? 23 A . For making it. yes . 24 Q. Okay . And did they have a patent on the 25 process for making PCB's? NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMON0019118 29 1 A. Yea. 2 Q. In the chemical business -- and I guess 3 maybe in other businesses, too -- but in the 4 chemical business in particular, what's the effect 5 of patenting a chemical process? 6 A. The effect is it is protected, restricted. 7 I think the period of effectiveness of the patent in 8 those days was 17 years, I think. 9 Q. And, so, that meant that other chemical 1 0 companies could not make PCB's for 17 years? 1 1 A. Not without approval from whoever owns the 12 patent. 13 Q. Oh, I mean you could get a license, in 14 other words, to do it. 15 A. Right. 16 Q. But absent getting that approval, nobody 17 else could make it? 18 A. Yes . 19 Q. Do you know when Swann acquired that 20 patent? 21 A. Not exactly. 22 MR. CRAWFORD: Well, just testify 23 about what you know, Mr. Benignus, if you - 24 THE WITNESS: Well - 25 MR. CRAWFORD: -- if you know. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMON0019119 30 1 THE WITNESS: I don't know exactly 2 when . 3 Q. (By Mr. Lacey) Had Swann acquired the 4 patent prior to Monsanto's acquisition of Swann? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. Okay. Now, when Monsanto acquired Swann in 7 1935, it also acquired the patent rights that Swann 8 had - 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. -- to PCB's, correct? 1 1 A. (Witness nods head) 12 MR. CRAWFORD: If you know, Mr. 13 Bsnignus. Be sure you have personal knowledge of 14 what you're testifying about. 15 THE WITNESS: I said "yes." 16 MR. CRAWFORD: Okay. 17 Q. (By Mr. Lacey) Fine. And, so, then 18 Monsanto continued to manufacture the PCB's using 19 the patent it had acquired from Swann, correct? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. Do you know whether or not Monsanto ever 22 licensed any other chemical company in the United 23 States to produce PCB's under its patents? 24 A . No . 25 Q. No, they did not? NELL MC CALLUM 8* ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMON0019120 3I 1 A. They did not. 2 Q. When the Swann facility there in Anniston 3 Alabama was acquired, it became part of Monsanto? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. And did that plant continue -- that 6 particular plant continue to manufacture PCB's after 7 it was acquired by Monsanto? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. Now, you mentioned to me that there was 1 0 this plant in East St. Louis or Sauget, Illinois, 11 known as the "Krummrich plant," that also 12 manufactured PCB's? 13 A. Yes . 14 Q. When did that plant start sanufacturing 15 PCBs? 16 A. I don't know the exact date. However - 17 this will answer your question -- that plant was put 18 there in response to demand from the United States 19 Government and the military to have two independent 20 sources of production. 21 Q. For PCB's? 22 A. For PCB. 23 So, that was, to answer your question, 24 pursuant to the war effort and the critical 25 application and use and need for PCB's. NELL NIC CALLUNI & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMON0019121 32 1 Q. Okay. And we're talking about the World 2 Bar II effort? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q Okay. And the further we get from World 5 War II, the more "war effort" could imply something 6 in addition to that. 7 So, at least by the end of World War 8 II, there ' s a second production facility? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. Did Monsanto ever produce PCB's at any 1 1 other plant than those two plants? 12 A. That wa it. . 13 Q. Okay. And how long did Monsanto continue 14 to produce PCB's in Anniston, Alabama? 15 A. Until final termination, which was after I 16 retired. I would say 1977. 17 Q. Okay. And was the same thing also true for 18 the Kruisrich plant? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. What use was made of PCB ' s in the World War 21 II effort, if you know? 22 A. The critical use, which put the materials 23 on strict allocation exclusive for the Government 24 and military, was that all Navy vessels - 25 underwater, submarines; above water, destroyers. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMON0019122 33 1 battleships, what have you -- operated with Askerai 2 PCB transformers, as did all the docks, facilities, 3 so forth, many Government buildings, the shipyards, 4 military installations, and so forth. it was 5 allocated strictly for that. 6 Q. Do you know whether or not at any time 7 during Monsanto's production of PCB' s they ever 8 offered anyone else the opportunity to license the 9 process for producing PCB's? 10 A. This patent that Swann had expired, ay 1 1 guess was, after 17 years. Swann started -- call it 12 1930. After that -- after that patent expired, 13 anybody could make it -14 Q. But nobody - 15 A. -- that wanted to. Nobody did. 16 Q. Okay. 17 A. There was no restriction. It was - 18 anybody that wanted to, could. 19 Q. You don't know if there was any effort to 20 rmnmw that patent or update it or revise it to keep 21 it in effect? 22 A. Not by Monsanto, the process. 23 Q. Okay. Was the process of making PCB's 24 roughly the same from the 1930's through the 1970's? 25 A. Exactly. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMON0019123 34 1 Q. Lot ae go back and pick up your work 2 history. You worked with PCB's in the inorganic 3 division in nonelectrical uses from '47 to '52, 4 correct? 5 A. Essentially correct, yes. 6 Q. Well, in what way might I be incorrect at 7 all? 8 A. You said *47 till when? 9 Q . ' 52. 10 A. That's essentially correct. It may have 1 1 been towards the end of '51. 12 Q. Maybe it was late '51, then? 13 A. (Witness nods head) 14 Q. But, otherwise, it's correct - 1 5 A . Right. 16 Q. -- except for the exact date? 17 Then you switched back to the organic 18 division, correct? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. And, here again, you still worked with 21 PCB's; but this time in electrical applications? 22 A. Yes . 23 Q. And, so, the division in Monsanto was that 24 nonelectrical applications were handled in the 25 inorganic division and electrical applications were NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMON0019124 1 handled in the organic division? 2 A . Sorry. You got it wrong. 3 Q. I got it wrong? 4 A . I'll explain it. 5 Q . Okay. You explain it. 6 A . It's not your fault. 7 Q. Okay . 8 A . A8 we already said, PCB's were in the 9 inorganic division, although they're organic 10 materials 1 1 Q. Right. 12 A . Now, there was a decision by , let' s say. 13 the very top of the company. They decided that, 14 "The PCB's," as you've already almost decided, "are 15 organic; so, we'll move them to the organic 16 division." That's -- occasions this move. That's 17 why it was done, by directive. 18 Q. You stayed in the same place and one day 19 you were working for inorganic and the next day 20 you're working for organic because of the name 21 change and the change of responsibility? 22 A. Two floors different in an office building. 23 Q. Yeah, I understand. 24 Now, let me talk a little bit about 25 the various names and the chemistry of PCB's. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMON0019125 36 1 You've already mentioned the name "Aroclor"? 2 A . Yes. 3 Q. And that is a name that was used by 4 Monsanto to identify any product that contained any 5 chlorinated biphenyl; is that correct? 6 A. Correct. 7 Q. And in terms of nomenclature, a biphenyl 8 and a diphenyl are the same thing, are they not? 9 A. Correct. 10 Q. That's about the same type of confusion 1 1 between being organic or inorganic, isn't it? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. And you also mentioned the name "Askeral." 1 4 That's another name for an Aroclor that has an 15 electrical application, is it not? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. So, when we talk about "Aroclor," we're 18 talking about a mixture of PCB's, correct? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. When we talk about "Askeral," we're talking 21 about a mixture of PCB'3? 22 A. Yes . 23 Q. Okay. When we talk about "dielectric 24 fluids," we're talking about PCB's that are used in 25 electrical equipment, like transformers and NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMON0019126 37 1 capacitors? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. Now, can you explain for us briefly what a 4 "dielectric fluid" is? 5 A. A "dielectric fluid" is somewhat of a 6 sophisticated term used for an insulation, an 7 insulating material. Without getting into more 8 unnecessary detail, it is an insulating material. 9 Q. And when we talk about a "fluid," we're 10 talking about an insulating liquid? 11 A. Yes . 12 Q. And what sort of uses would you put this 13 and it -- by the way, when we talk about 14 "insulation," we're talking about electrical 15 insulating properties? 16 A. Yea . 17 Q. We get insulation like keeping the cold or 18 heat out; but that's not what we're talking about, 19 is it? 20 A. No. 21 Q. And what is -- what do we mean by 22 "insulation" when we talk about "electrical 23 insulation"? 24 A. "Electrical insulation" -- now I will use 25 the word "dielectric." NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMON0019127 38 1 Q. Okay . 2 A . This is a material that insulates the 3 system from passage of electric current. 4 Q. So, it can't -5 A . It is not a conductor. 6 Q. Right. There are other dielectric 7 materials besides these fluids, correct? 8 A . Mineral oil. 9 Q. That's one. Air is a dielectric, is it 10 not ? 1 1 A. Yes, it is. 12 Q. And that's why we have these power lines up 13 in the air. They're separated and insulated from 14 each other by air, right? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. Okay. Now, what uses do dielectric fluids 17 have? Why is the electrical business interested in 18 dielectric fluids? 19 A. First, I'll talk about capacitors. 20 Q. Okay. 21 A. The dielectric PCB is the lifeblood liquid 22 of a capacitor. The other components of a capacitor 23 are simply a winding of kraft tissue, cellulose or, 24 in later years, polypropylene film, which is also an 25 insulating material. This is wound sandwiched NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMON0019128 39 1 between the conductor, which is aluminum toil. 2 They're wound up into a roll. This is the coil of 3 the capacitor. 4 The coil is put into a container 5 because it's going to receive liquid. Thi3 is a 6 steel or, in some cases, can be an aluminum 7 container. And to hook it up, this coil, there are 8 two electrodes -9 Q. Okay. 10 A. -- that come out of this thing. 11 Now, you gave me a lesson. Air is a 12 dielectric. You're right. Perhaps you know the 13 dielectric constant of air. 14 Q. I don't. 15 A . It's one. 16 Now, why are we interested in PCB 17 rather than air? PCB has a dielectric constant 18 of -- depending on which one -- 4 1/2, maybe 5, 19 versus one for air. The dielectric constant we 20 speak of as ''capacitance" of this device. This is a 21 great economic advantage. This says essentially 22 that if, instead of using air, we will use PCB, our 23 capacitor needs be only one-fifth as large as with 24 air . 25 Me need a can of metal, and with the NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMON0019129 40 1 kraft paper, aluminum material, only one-fifth, 2 which is economically a big advantage, also a big 3 space saver. There, now, the liquid serves as a 4 dielectric and coolant, because to take advantage of 5 this system the fullest, the can will have only, as 6 designed for economic reasons, the least area 7 surface required to move the heat out of this 8 system, which is moved first through the liquid, 9 into the wall of the metal, into the air to keep 10 this thing from overheating. 1 1 Now, that is the purpose that FCB 12 liquid dielectric serves in a capacitor. 13 Q. Okay. Let me stop and ask you some 14 questions about that so I understand. 15 Are there other liquids that have 16 dielectric properties besides PCB's? 17 A . Oh, sure. 18 Q. When were PCB's first commercially produced 19 by Swann, approximately? 20 A . I wou1d say 1930. 21 Q. Did we have capacitors before then? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. Any of them have liquids in them or - 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. Okay. What sort of materials were used as NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMON0019130 ____________________________________________________________ ___________________________ 41 1 capacitor dielectric fluids before 1930, if you 2 know? 3 A. Yes. Mineral oil. 4 Q. Okay. And what is mineral oil? 5 A. Mineral oil is a hydrocarbon, and it's 6 petroleum derived. It's a petroleum-base oil, which 7 you're familiar -- off the record -- familiar in 8 Hous ton. 9 Q. Okay. Did -- what was the dielectric 1 0 constant of mineral oil, approximately? 11 A. Approximately half of PCB. 12 Q. Okay. So, if PCB is 4.5 to one, the 13 mineral oil - 14 A. 2.2. 15 Q. Okay. So, it was a better dielectric fluid 16 than air? 17 A. From that point of view, yes. 10 Q. I'm just trying to figure out how these 19 things fit together in terms of dielectric - 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. -- properties. 22 A. Air is one. Mineral oil is 2.2; and the 23 Askeral is, say, a 5. So, that dictates the size of 24 what we're talking about. 25 Now, there are other characteristics. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMON0019131 42 1 if you want to get into them. 2 Q. Let e try to understand the capacitor. 3 And I've got a sketch pad over here and I won't hold 4 you to being a great artist but I would love if you 5 could give us some sort of picture of what a 6 capacitor looks like. is that something you could 7 do? 8 And I've got some markers here, and 9 you can feel free to draw us a capacitor, just so 10 we'll know what -- what one of those things look 11 like. And, so, you don't have to be a great artist 12 because anything you draw is going to be better than 13 what we know right now. 14 A. A capacitor, you look at it, is a can, a 15 metal container. Now, in this metal container is 16 placed this wrapping, this coil -- this coil, which 17 is a winding, like a roll of toilet paper. 18 Q. Just getting smaller all the way down or - 19 A. Yes. Now, the reason for this, if we 20 didn't wind it up, we would have a thing across the 21 room here, wouldn't we? Me wind it up to get 22 maximum surface in the minimum space. It's as 23 simple as that. 24 Q. What's important about the surface of this 25 material inside the capacitor? NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMON0019132 43 1 A. The importance of the paper, the kraft 2 paper, which ifl made under highly purified 3 conditions, is not -- it's kraft paper -4 Q. You say "kraft" - 5 A. -- by the paper mills but with a very 6 special process. It does not use regular mill 7 water. It uses deionized water. It is specially 8 handled to avoid traces of metal-conducting 9 particles because we are making a nonconductor of 10 electricity . 11 Q. Uh-huh. 12 A. Let me say this: A capacitor stores 13 electric energy momentarily and releases it. It 1 4 acts like a sponge. It's an electrical sponge. It 15 absorbs electric energy for a very short period of 16 time, and then it releases this energy. And that is 17 how the thing is applied. It's a sponge. Or you 18 might -- some people say it's a pump kind of a 19 thing. 20 Now, this, then, is the winding. This 21 system is dehydrated very thoroughly -22 Q. Taking all the water out? 23 A. -- taking all the water out. Water is a 24 conductor. 25 Q. Okay. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMON0019133 44 1 A. Now, PCB is a relatively polar dielectric. 2 Q< And what do you mean by that? 3 A. The dipoles rotate. More practical, what 4 I'm saying is this: A PCB dielectric, which has to 5 be made to an extremely high degree of purity for 6 use in this capacitor, is very sensitive to trace of 7 ionic impurities. The people that made this roll 8 are ladies that sit there at the winding machine in 9 white gowns. They have on white canvas gloves. 10 They have on hat hoods so no hair contaminant. The 11 skin is not to touch this because it's a 12 contaminant, the -13 Q. The oils on the skin? 14 A. -- the oils on the skin, the ionic 15 materials in the skin, the moisture, the water. 16 Now, the final processing -- in 17 addition to being a liquid dielectric, you see, the 18 PCB is a means for evacuating the air -- we don't 19 want air because air is one, and here we're at 5. 20 Re don't want air -- and drying this thing. 21 All right. Now, that's all there is 22 in a capacitor. 23 Q. So, we pour the PCB's in and it's heavier 24 than air and it forces air out the top as the liquid 25 goes in? NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMON0019134 _____________________________________________________________________________________________ 4 5 1 A. It's poured in with -- with pressure. 2 First, it's evacuated under very strong vacuum. The 3 vacuum is broken and the PCB enters it and then 4 there's soaking to completely dry and evacuate this 5 because air is not as strong a dielectric as is the 6 PCB , 7 Now we have a capacitor. And, 8 really -- then there's a lid on here and an 9 impregnating hole where there should be air where 1 0 the PCB went in. 11 Q. Right. 12 A. And that gets soldered shut, and there will 13 be an electrode from the foil in here. That's - 14 that's all there is to a capacitor. 15 Q. Okay . 16 A. It's an amazingly simple-looking thing. 17 The seventh wonder of the world is how much trouble 18 you can get with something like this. 19 Q. Well, what do you use one of these 20 capacitors for - 21 A. All right. 22 Q. -- that you've just shown us? 23 A. Now, the uses for the capacitors -- and 24 this is an important aspect of PCB use. PCB 25 dielectric replaced mineral oil because, as we NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMON0019135 _______________________________________________________________________________________ 4 6 1 discussed, the dielectric constant. Before the 2 advent of PCB's, G.E., who were -- it was Steinmetz 3 that introduced capacitors to General Electric. The 4 great Steinmetz predicted a great future for this. 5 They had in those days mineral oil. 6 Mineral oil will oxidize. When mineral oil 7 oxidizes, it sludges, forms acidic materials that 8 get to be relatively conducting. 9 And when we say "develop a high power 1 0 factor," this means a high loss tangent or 11 dissipation factor. This means heat generation. We 12 already discussed what a capacitor is and, I 13 believe, to release - 14 I'll sit -15 Q. That's okay. Point out what you're going 16 to show us . 17 A. -- release heat through the wall of this 18 can. Now, if we generate heat in this thing beyond 19 its ability to transfer that out, we've got a bomb. 20 That thing is going to overheat. It's going to 21 consume itself. Things are going to decompose, 22 generate gases. And, indeed, the early capacitors 23 with mineral oil were almost as much bombs as 24 anything else. Plus, mineral oil burns. 25 And at the high temperature where NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMON0019136 47 1 these things would generate enough to consume 2 themselves, those things are hot. And that mineral 3 oil, when that let's go, you've got quite a fire on 4 your hand. 5 Now, this leads us to two things. We 6 talked about economics, small size. We will now, 7 with G.E. -- I'm saying what G.B. found. We're 8 going into what belongs to G.E. This is their 9 material. We merely make it. 10 Q. Okay. Let me stop you there for a second. 1 1 One thing I want to find out before we get into that 1 2 isi What do capacitors do? How do you use them? 13 I have one sitting here on the table, 14 and what do I do with it? 15 A. Well, excuse me. Let me finish. It's very 16 short. 17 Q. Okay . 18 A. Why was PCB of interest? Prank Clark, who 19 discovered this at G.E., he found, number one, 20 "Look, mister, it doesn't burn." 21 And the only ad I've ever seen on PCB 22 dielectric is a blowtorch into a pan. It doesn't 23 burn . 24 The other thing is it doesn't 25 oxidize. It's a stronger dielectric than mineral NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMON0019137 43 1 oil. And that's the story. 2 Now, to answer your question, "What 3 are they used f or," fluorescent lights, you have. 4 All fluorescent lights, indoor and outdoor, the 5 ballast operates with, till it's demise, PCB 6 capacitors. They're about this high, about so 7 thick, and about maybe so wide. They're small. 8 They are encased in a ballast - 9 called "ballast" -- with a transformer. The 10 capacitor is encased in a sealing material in there, 11 plastic tar. 12 Now, you ask, "What does it do?" 13 Q. Right. 14 A. We already said this is an electric 15 sponge. When you start, push that button there to 16 start these lights, unless you have the benefit of 17 this sponge to release momentarily additional power 18 needed to energize this thing, these tubes, they 19 don't do it. Now, that's one thing. It provides 20 this . 21 The other thing it does here, it 22 corrects power factor. 23 Q. What do you mean by that? 24 A. Power factor in a power line -- the utility 25 has generators. Okay. What they generate and can NELL NIC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMON0019138 49 1 transmit over these lines is 100 percent useful if 2 you have here an electric heater, a resistance. But 3 we really don't have that. And what we have, say, 4 for instance, more true in a motor system but - 5 okay. What we have here is the fact that, for these 6 kind of applications, the power that comes across 7 the line is only maybe 80 percent useful for this, 8 whereas it would be entirely useful for any electric 9 resistance system. 10 So, "power factor" is meant getting 11 this sponge to absorb this energy, to release it 12 momentarily. And by this action -- it sort of acts 13 as a pump, maybe I should say. That makes the 14 bottom line is -- instead of only getting 80 percent 15 value of what comes across the line, you will get 90 16 percent, this sort of thing. It's a pump. 17 Now, one use is -- a major use, you 18 see, one is this ballast, lighting ballast. The 19 other -- another major use is motor operation, like 20 air conditioners. Now, air conditioning got to be 21 very prevalent. And if everybody -- if many people 22 turned on air conditioning and you didn't have a 23 capacitor, you'd blow up the power company and 24 everything would go down. 25 By law, these things need to have a NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMON0019139 ____________________________________________ _______________________________________________ 50 1 capacitor; and the Aroclor, PCB, was the most 2 efficient. It replaced mineral oil long ago, and 3 there was nothing that competed with it. 4 The other prime use, number three, is 5 that you had said about the power lines -- if you 6 look up on power poles, you will see banks o power 7 line capacitors. These are doing the same thing we 8 already talked about. They are making what the 9 utility can produce more effective for the operation 10 of motors, lights, and -- and this is -- they 1 1 increase, enhance the utilization; and therefore 12 it's an econoaic measure. The utility doesn't have 13 to build as much generation. 14 Tou know, it sounds sort of nebulous 15 when we're talking here; but you spread this across 16 the whole country, it's a whopping big thing. This 17 is why the use of PCB, for which there was no 18 replacement or substitute, was quite a critical 19 thing. 20 Now, those are the main applications 21 for capacitors. 22 Q. Okay. Let me make sure I - 23 A. Wait a minute. There's another area - 24 since we're talking about it -- you may want to say, 25 in communication equipment, telephones, and this NELL NIC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMON0019140 ____________________________________________________________________________________________ 51 1 8ort of thing. It all ties back to the same thing. 2 Q. So, there -- as I understand it, there are 3 three major uses of capacitors. They're in lighting 4 and that sort of use, motors? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. And in power factor correction? 7 A. Capacitors. 8 Q. Okay. 9 A. And in a sense, they're all power factor 10 correction. 11 Q. Hut - 12 A. I'm sorry we went through so long 13 explaining this. I don't know. Do you want all of 14 that? 15 Q. Yes. I wanted to find out about those 16 major categories of use. 17 Now, if -- in each one of those 18 categories we would have a capacitor that's designed 19 along the lines that you've drawn for us on this 20 sheet of paper over here? 21 A. exactly. 22 Q. It might vary in size and it might vary in 23 outward appearance but it would have the same basic 24 internal structure and use? 25 A . Bs sentially. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMON0019141 52 1 Q. Okay. 2 MR. LACEY: Let le ask the court 3 reporter to mark that sheet of paper as Benignus No. 4 1. 5 (Benignus Exhibit No. 1 marked 6 for identification) 7 (Discussion off the Record) 8 Q. (By Mr. Lacey) Mr. Benignus, let me ask 9 you if what the court reporter has now Barked as 1 0 Benignus Exhibit No. 1 is your rough drawing for us 11 of a capacitor. 12 A. Very rough. 13 Q. But that is your drawing of it? 14 A. It explains the simple configuration of 15 materials used. 16 Q. Okay. Now, I know that Monsanto did not 17 actually stop producing PCB's until after you left 18 them; but do you know whether or not the electrical 19 industry still makes and uses capacitors? 20 A. Oh, obviously. Otherwise the country would 21 shut down. 22 Q. Okay. 23 A. But not PCB. 24 Q. Okay. They make them with something else? 25 A. Yes. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMON0019142 53 1 Q. Okay. Now, let me ask you about an 2 entirely different uae of dielectric fluid. I 3 understand we've got capacitors, and we've talked 4 generally about what a capacitor is and the main 5 uses of it and, to the extent that at least I can 6 understand, how it works. And I'm not sure I 7 understand, but I'm not going to try to understand 8 any more than I know. 9 But, now, I understand that there are 10 also things called "transformers'*? 1 1 A. Yes. 12 Q. Can you explain for ui, generally, what a 13 "transformer" is? 14 A. Well, in the area of PCB transformers, I 15 will call those "distribution-type transformers," 16 rather than "power transformers." 17 Q. What's the difference between a power - 18 A. A power transformer -- when the utility 19 generates electricity, it has to pump this through 20 the utility lines. And that is the purpose of the 21 transformer, to build up this voltage so there are 22 lower line losses. 23 Now, I'm not talking about those kind 24 of transformers when we talk about PCB 25 transformers. Those kind of transformers will be NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMON0019143 54 1 invariably insulated with mineral oil, not PCB. 2 Q. Is there any particular reason for that? 3 A. Yes. The reason is cost. That's one of 4 the reasons. And the other reason is -- is that a 5 utility power transformer isn't located in a 6 confined building. It's outdoors. And if there is 7 a fire, it's not -- well, it's unfortunate. It's e not a great risk. They're not in the middle of a 9 building in a populated area. So, that is the 1 o reason mineral oil is used. 11 Q. Is it a lower cost? When you said "cost," 12 is mineral oil a lower cost? . 13 A. Oh, yes, considerably lower cost than - 14 than PCB. Maybe PCB's cost eight times as much as 1 5 mineral oil, just to give you a ballpark figure. 16 Q. What about these -- what you call 17 "distribution transformers"? 18 A. Yes. Mow, in distribution transformers the 19 applications for which PCB was -- insulated 20 equipment was used, one of the main applications was 21 an industrial -- industrial, "load centers" they 22 called it. This would be in factories, steel mills, 23 flour mills, automotive manufacturing places, mining 24 operations, things like that. 25 Another use we already touched on was NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMON0019144 ________ ___ _________________________________________________________________________5 5 1 in these military installations where resistance 2 from fire and approximation to water was a factor. 3 Now, another application for PCB 4 transformers was in commercial buildings, office 5 buildings, schools, hospitals, that sort of thing. 6 And another area of application was in utility 7 underground networks. So, those are the major 8 applications for Askeral transformers. 9 In other words, this is relatively 10 small transformer. I say "relative," to these very 11 large power -- where they generate electric power. 12 Those are very big transformers. 13 Q. Were all relatively small transformers made 14 with PCB * s? 15 A. All right. In -- I'll explain it this 16 way: To begin with, the competition of Askeral 17 transformer was not mineral oil. We already covered 18 that. 19 What is the competition? The 20 competition is open dry-type transformer. Now, the 21 open dry-type transformer, being open, it's not very 22 applicable and sensible to put this in a flour mill 23 or a cement mill, where there is dust and generation 24 of dirt, because this interferes with the insulation 25 and can get into an open dry-type transformer. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMON0019145 56 1 Neither is it very sensible to put an 2 open dry-type transformer in an area where you 3 expect water flooding or, say, around the coastal 4 areas and so forth where any moisture -- any water 5 getting into an open dry-type transformer can cause 6 this thing to go. 7 So, that is really the -- the 8 competition; and this is what we're looking at in 9 the application of these transformers. 10 Q. I guess my question was whether, for 11 example, every transformer -- and I take it from 12 what you're saying it's not true -- but every 13 transformer built from 1930 to 1974 had Askeral in 14 i t. 15 A. NO. No. 16 Q. What other - 17 A. Only the ones where the judgment was made 18 that Askeral should be used for the purpose that I 19 told you i avoiding water and for the purpose of 20 avoiding fire hazard. The insurance people dictated 21 much of this. 22 Q. What -- what percentage of all the 23 distribution transformers that were made in the 24 Thirties, Forties, Fifties, Sixties, that period of 25 time, would have been Askeral transformers versus NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMON0019146 57 1 some other type, approximately? 2 MR. CRAWFORDj That's a little broad, 3 David. Can you narrow it just a little bit? 4 Because you went - 5 MR. LACEY*. Well, I'd like to - 6 A. I -- I'd like to help, if I can. 7 Q. (By Mr. Lacey) Surely. That's what I'm 8 asking for. 9 A. This is a difficult thing to answer because 10 now you said "distribution transformers." 11 Q. That was -- I'm trying to use the term you 12 used to explain it. 13 A. Yeah. Well, we're running into trouble 14 because a distribution-type transformer is also 15 these transformers that, indeed, have mineral oil in 16 them. 17 And there are many, many, many of 10 those that you see on utility poles to assist with 19 the distribution of power. Now, those are mineral 20 oil. So, if they catch on fire, you saw the top of 21 the pole off. It's not a fire hazard. So, let's 22 answer your question. 23 Askeral went into a specifically 24 selected place, see? Rather than the -- it's a 25 specialty, is the answer. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMON0019147 58 1 Q. Okay. 2 A. It is very much a minority. That is the 3 answer. And to quantify this in numbers, i don't 4 know . 5 Q. Okay. Well, that -- that's answering my 6 question . 7 A. Okay. 8 Q. They're basically a specialty product? 9 A. Specialty, yes, based on fire -- lack of 10 fire hazard. That's the answer to the question. 11 Q. Let me ask you to flip the page up there 12 and see if you can draw us what a transformer looks 13 like with Askeral in it, or a transformer 14 generally. 15 Can you do that for us us? 16 A. It's going to look the same. 17 Q. Oh, okay. So, a transformer and a 18 capacitor look -- look the same? 19 A. I'll draw a picture. It gets a little 20 bit -- you know, somebody is going to look at these 21 things, you know. 22 Q. Well -- 23 A. You know what a transformer looks like. 24 Q. Well, I.-25 A. It's a -- excuse me. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMON0019148 59 1 Q. I near), I hate to say it - 2 A. I'll go along with this. 3 Q. -- but I've never looked inside of one. 4 So - 5 A. I'll go along with this. 6 Q. -- if you can flip that page up there and 7 just turn to the next page - 8 A. Well, before we do that, let me say -- let 9 me approach it this way: A transformer is a metal 10 tank, right? In this metal tank, we have what they 11 call a "core" and a "coil." It doesn't have - 12 well, it has pressboard. There's some cellulosic 13 organic insulation in this core and coil. 14 It's a metal core, again. Here we had 15 aluminum and kraft paper. Now we're going to have 16 in the -- we're going to have transformer steel. 17 That will be the metal. And we will have what they 18 call "pressboard." That's a cellulosic material 19 commonly used as transformer insulation. 20 So, we have a tank. It's going to be 21 much larger than a capacitor, and it's going to be a 22 steel tank. And we have a core and a coil. You can 23 call this a "core" and a "coil" if you will, but 24 they call it a "winding." 25 Q. Okay. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMON0019149 60 1 k. Now, this thing -- in the transformer, 2 again, the core and the coil is immersed in PCB 3 dielectric, indeed, for the same purpose. you have 4 to take the heat out of the core and the coil. The 5 liquid is the first avenue for taking this out. It 6 goes into the sidewall of the metal container, 7 into -- if it has fins, that's the purpose, to add 8 surface. And that's a transformer. 9 They are also filled by evacuation 1 0 and -11 Q. Put the oil in - 12 A. But this is a much -- well, it -- it's also 13 very similar. This is a very touchy thing here. 1 4 Q. What do you mean? 15 A. What I mean is this i In a capacitor, 16 dissipation factor or power factor is essential. It 17 is very important in a capacitor. In a transformer, 18 an Askeral transformer, it i3 not. 19 Now, what does this mean? Askeral 20 liquid, as we said already, it's relatively polar. 21 This means, as we've seen -- or said, that trace of 22 contamination will affect its electrical 23 characteristics. This is all-important in a 24 c apacitor. 25 If I'm making a capacitor and you NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMON0019150 ________________________________________ __ ____________________________ ____________________ 6L 1 stick your finger in this thing, I'm going to send 2 you away because you've ruined It. 3 Q Okay. 4 A. If I'm testing Askeral for use in this and 5 I've gone to a lot of work to clean a cell, 6 dielectric cell, to test its power factor and 7 I'll -- there's a ritual to cleaning this cell -- if 8 you come along and you're in -- you're intrigued 9 with this, well, you want to pick it up and you do 10 touch it, I'm going to send you away. You've ruined 1 1 it. I've got to start all over with this thing. 12 In making this -- this is very 13 important in a capacitor -- that power factor must 14 be low. 15 I'm getting at something now in the 16 transformer that is quite different. There, the 17 power factor of Askeral is not important unless 18 something is causing this high power factor that 19 could be something we need to look into. 20 Here's the reason for this: A 21 transformer -- the heat generated in the core and 22 the coil of a transformer is so overwhelming beyond 23 any heat loss in the dielectric loss -- which is 24 heat -- but that is so nebulous compared to the 25 large amount of heat generated in a transformer. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMON0019151 62 1 forget it; forget it on this basis: that this does 2 not indicate instability of the PCB dielectric. 3 Now, we come, then, to an important 4 difference, which explains why I wrote on this 5 subject exactly as we're talking. In the case of 6 mineral oil -- and Askeral is a specialty, which 7 isn't -- well, it's -- well, transformer -- mineral 8 oil transformers are much more widely manufactured 9 and used. There is a marked difference in the 1 0 properties of Askeral versus mineral oil, 1 1 particularly on this item of power factor. 12 If any mineral oil transformer, the 13 power factor is 20 percent, 30 percent, something 14 like -- I don't want to be near it. I'm afraid it's 1 5 going to blow up. Something is very radically 16 wrong. In the case of an Askeral transformer, if 1 7 the dissipation factor is 20 percent, 50 percent, or 18 off the scale, it doesn't bother me. 19 The important thing in an Askeral 20 transformer is dielectric breakdown voltage, 21 dielectric strength. And when you analyze this 22 thing, you come down to what -- "Why is this an 23 important thing?" 24 We already said Askeral is entirely 25 stable, not affected by water. But you're reading NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMON0019152 63 1 in a high -- in a low dielectric strength. A normal 2 spec would call for something like 30,000 volts. 3 Say, we're down to 5 or 10 thousand volts. Look for 4 moisture contamination. 5 This comes down to a very simple fact 6 in an Askeral transformer. What is the enemy of an 7 Askeral transformer? It's water; it's moisture. 9 And the dielectric strength teat on an Askeral 9 transformer essentially is no more than a moisture 10 test. 1 1 Now, the literature I wrote, this is 12 the end point of it; but to explain it, you go 13 through all kinds of things about power factor, 14 volume resistivity, this or that or the other thing 15 that these technologists know about. You come down 16 to its moisture. 17 Q. So I understand the -- the relative 18 positions of capacitors and transformers, in terms 19 of the external view of it, I'm going to have -- in 20 each one. I'm going to have a can drawn of the 21 capacitor smaller and the transformer larger, that's 22 got two wires or something that will transmit 23 electricity coming out of it? 24 A. Yeah. 25 Q. And inside, I've got these windings -- NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMON0019153 64 1 A . Yeah . 2 Q -- soaked in my fluid? 3 A . Yes -4 Q. And with - 5 A. -- that's it. 6 Q. -- with the capacitor, I am -- I've got 7 this sponge that's storing power? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. And with the transformer, I've got this 10 thing that is changing the voltage? 11 A . Yes -12 Q. That's - 13 A . - - exactly. 14 Q. -- the basic difference between the two? 15 A . That's right. This is right. 16 2. And if I understand what you're saying 17 correctly, even when PCB ' s were being manufactured 18 and used in transformers, the vast majority of 19 distribution transformers in general use were not 20 PCS transformers? 21 A. Oh, that's right. 22 Q. We had them in special applications where 23 people chose them for particular characteristics or 24 uses, correct? 25 A. Yes. Compared to the overall transformer NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMON0019154 65 1 usage, this is correct. Askeral transformers 2 weren't put on telephone pole -- on utility poles. 3 Q. And in general application, the majority of 4 transformers would have been mineral oil 5 transformers? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. And, then, in specialty applications, you 8 might find PCB transformers or dry-type 9 transformers? 10 A. Yes. 1 1 Q. Okay. Here any mineral oil transformers 12 ever used in specialty applications in some way or 13 another? 14 A. They could be if you weren't concerned with 15 fire hazards. 16 Q. Okay. Mow, in the capacitor area, were 1 7 basically all capacitors PCB capacitors when PCB's 10 were being made; or were there other capacitors? 19 A. No. Again, it's specialty. 20 Q. What else - 21 A. We came down to three types of capacitor -22 Q. Okay. What other - 23 A. -- which was the motor run, the ballast, 24 and the -- the power correction capacitor. 25 Q. What other materials were used in NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMON0019155 66 1 capacitors besides PCB's? 2 A. Oh, there was, in the D.C. areas, there was 3 castor oil; and there were capacitors made with 4 various -- I got to think for a minute -- various 5 other materials that would use -- these -- what I'm 6 saying is thist In the areas where Askeral was 7 selected by the judgment of the industry, no, 8 nothing else competed with it. 9 But in a wide variety of other kinds 10 of thing that you have to call "transformers," other 1 1 things were used. 12 Q. Okay. 13 MR. CRAWFORDi David, can we -- are 14 at a stopping point? 15 MR. LACEY: Let me - - I' ve got just 16 couple more questions I think will -17 MR. CRAWFORD: Okay . 18 MR. LACEY: -- finish up this line. 19 Q. (By Mr. Lacey) And subsequent to the 20 cessation of use of PCB's, there are other products 21 that are being used in even these specialty 22 application capacitors and transformers serving in 23 the place of PCB ' s ? 24 A . No . 25 Q. What'8 being -- NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC, HARTOLDMON0019156 _______________________________________________________________________________________ 67 1 A. I'm sorry. Maybe I misled you. 2 Q. No. I -- no. I'm asking that question to 3 you at this point. 4 What are we doing today? We're not 5 making PCB's anymore, correct? 6 A. So, what are we using today? 7 Q. Yes. Are there substitutes that are being 8 used in place of PCB's? 9 A. Yes, obviously; or else we wouldn't be 10 sitting here. 11 Q. Well, that's ay point. I mean - 12 A. I'll answer that. 13 Q. okay. 14 A. In the capacitor area, the thing that was 15 selected -- and there's only one -- Monsanto had 16 nothing to do with this selection whatsoever. 17 Really only one place this could be probed out. 18 This is not a simple undertaking. It involves a 19 great deal of responsibility and risk. 20 The Government didn't want PCB stopped 21 until there was assurance on this point. So, when 22 there was assurance that a substitute material could 23 be taken to the marketplace, this was an 24 announcement by the General Electric Company. And 25 what is being used is dioctyl phthalate. That is NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMON0019157 63 1 the replacement. 2 Q. In capacitors? 3 A. Capacitors. 4 Q. Okay. 5 A. Now, there's an ester. It's -- I'm not 6 going to get into the difference between that and 7 PCB. Let it be. 8 In the transformer area, people could 9 use more dry-type than they had. That's one thing. 10 People could take risk with mineral oil if they 11 wanted to and overlook fire hazard. 12 To answer your question, more 13 specific, to my knowledge, silicone oil is the 14 predominant replacement for PCB in these transformer 15 applications we spoke of. 16 Then there is some effort at using a 17 high temperature higher-flash kind of oil than is 18 mineral oil. It's a hydrocarbon. 19 Q. Do you know what the name of that oil is? 20 A. Well, they call it "R-tenp, " I think. 21 Q. Allright. 22 A. Now, to what extent this is used, I don't 23 know. This -- this has come about after my -- I'll 24 answer your question -- there's two answers to your 25 question t For capacitors, dioctyl phthalate; and. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMON0019158 69 1 for transformers, call it "silicone fluid." There 2 may be some fluorocarbon gas type. 3 That's the answer to your question. 4 Q. Do you know whether or not those materials 5 were developed after the problems with PCB ' s came to 6 the forefront? 7 A. Oh, yes. It's not that there was anything 8 new discovered that these things were dielectrics. 9 Dioctyl phthalate was published in Von Hippie's book 10 many, many years ago as a dielectric. 11 But who wants to use a phthalate ester 12 that will hydrolyze and is water senstive and not as 13 stable? This took a lot of judgment in -- and 14 engineering that thing there differently so, if it 15 does start getting out of hand, there are mechanical 16 things that come into play to try and shut this 17 thing off. 18 Q. So, in terms - 19 A. This kind of thing that -- you know. 20 Q. In terms of the materials, they had been 21 there; there just wasn't any us-e being made of them 22 until PCB's were no longer - 23 A. Because nobody had the experience that they 24 could be used. They were forced into these things. 25 And for many years Monsanto tried to find other NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMON0019159 1 dielectrics than Aroclors. 2 But at the properties one gets, the 3 good properties, dielectric properties, with 4 Askeral, PCB's, at the low cost, it completely 5 debouched the research opportunity to find a 6 replacement. And not until these things were 7 forced, due to objection from the environmentalists, 8 were these things considered or pursued. 9 MR. LACEYj That's a good stopping 10 place. 11 MR. CRAWFORDi Okay. 12 THE VIDBOGRAFHER i He are now going 13 off the record. The time is 250 p.m. 14 (Short Recess) 15 THE VIDEOGRAPHER i He are now back on 16 the record. The time is 3:16 p.m. 17 Q. (By Mr. Lacey) Mr. Benignus, let me make 18 sure, as we're discussing the sorts of things you 19 did in the electrical applications of PCB's after 20 you went to the organic group within Monsanto from 21 '52 forward - 22 A . Uh-huh. 23 Q. -- to get you to tell us briefly the sorts 24 of things that you actually did with regard to the 25 electrical applications of PCB's. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMON0019160 7l 1 A. What I did was monitor and help with the 2 development of specifications with the people in the 3 industry, and particularly General Electric Company, 4 as these were the materials of the General Electric 5 Company. 6 Q. Anything else that you did in that period 7 from '52 to '74 besides monitoring and helping with 8 specifications, especially G.E.'s? 9 A. Well, tied in with this is the activity at 10 technical societies, ASTM. 11 Q. Anything else that you did, generally, 12 during that period from '52 to '74? 13 A. Oh, yeah. Very much my activity was 14 ex-USA. 15 Q. You mean outside the United States? 16 A. Outside the United States. 17 Q. And what were you doing there? 18 A. Again, it was in the same kind of activity 19 in various countries of the world where these 20 meetings were held. 21 Q. In connection with your role as marketing 22 manager from the mid Sixties or so on through '74, 23 were you responsible for trying to encourage as many 24 people as possible to use the PCB's in their 25 transformers and their capacitors? NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMON0019161 72 1 A. Really, to -- to no significant extent. We 2 couldn't get people to use one more drop of PCB 3 dielectrics than they themselves decided to use. We 4 weren't out selling them from the standpoint that 5 you normally think of selling and so forth. 6 Q. Well, I guess what I'm getting at is 7 whether, from a technical standpoint, you might 8 attempt to convince technical people, who would be 9 in a position to specify a particular type of 1 0 transformer, the benefits - 1 1 A. No . 12 Q. -- of specifying PCB transformers versus 13 mineral oil transformers or dry transformers or 14 anything like that. 15 A. Well, as we already discussed, we weren't 16 in competition with mineral oil. 17 Q. So, basically, whoever used the PCB 18 products would just use them; and there wasn't any 19 real effort on the part of Monsanto as the 20 manufacturer of PCB's to tout the benefits of PCB 21 products? 22 A. That's correct. 23 Q. And am I correct in understanding the only 24 real applications for the PCB's in electrical uses 25 were the capacitors and the transformers? NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMON0019162 73 1 A . Correct. 2 Well, that's not entirely correct. 3 There are minor other applications, like 4 electromagnets; but they were for the same sort of 5 thing. Those were minor -- you would say minor 6 applications. 7 Q. The significant applications were 8 capacitors and transformers? 9 A. Yeah. Well, in -- in a -- in a 10 electromagnet, it's a transformer, too. 1 1 Q. Just a different use? 12 A. It's a different use. It's an 13 electromagnet. 14 Q. Let me go back and talk a little bit about 15 the chemistry of PCB's if I could. You mentioned 16 early on that PCB's are a complex mixture? 17 A . Yes . 18 Q. And I -- I have talked already with 19 Richard. Do you know Dr. Richard? 20 A. Sure . 21 Q. And, also, I ' ve talked with Dr. Munch. 22 A . Yes . 23 Q. Do you know Dr . Munch? 24 A . Yes. 25 Q. And I want to just summarize briefly what NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMON0019163 74 1 my understanding was from talking with them. I 2 don't want to represent that I fully understand it, 3 but - 4 A. All right . 5 Q. -- see if I do have the correct 6 understanding as you would understand it - 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. -- as a chemis t. 9 They've told me that the process of 10 manufacturing PCB's involved, first, taking benzene 1 1 and making biphenyl or diphenyl, whatever you call 12 it - 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. -- and that then, that process, after you 15 did that, involved removing some of the hydrogen 16 atoms that were a part of the biphenyl or diphenyl 17 molecule and replacing them with chlorine atoms, 18 correct? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. And that creates what we call this 21 "polychlorinated" biphenyl or diphenyl? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. Now, would you be able to draw me a simple 24 diagram of what a benzene molecule looks like the 25 way a chemist represents it? NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. - HARTOLDMON0019164 75 1 A. A benzene molecule? 2 Q. Uh-huh. If you can, let me get you to do 3 that on our sketch pad over here. 4 A. All right. 5 I don't want to disconnect this. 6 That's the typical way one would draw 7 a benzene ring. 8 Q. Let me get you to step to one side or the 9 other so our camera can see that here. 10 A . (Witness complies) 11 Q. And in the benzene ring, it looks like 12 there's six sides to it. What do those represent? 13 A. Here, at each one of those places, is a 14 carbon. 15 Q. Let's see if we can get one of those red 16 markers that can just put a red "C" at each spot 17 there to represent those carbons. 18 I don't know if either one of those is 19 any good. I think we were guilty of leaving them 20 out one day. 21 A . This is a carbon. 22 Q. So, I've got a -- if we talk about a 23 "benzene molecule" or a "benzene ring," we're 24 talking about something a chemist would depict in 25 the fashion you've just drawn there on that sheet? NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMON0019165 7 fa A. That's the -- in a simple form, yes. Q. Now, if you were going to draw a biphenyl or a diphenyl molecule, could you draw below that -aybe you can label that top one there "benzene." 5 Just write that somewhere where we'll know that's 6 what that is, and then show us what a diphenyl or 7 biphenyl would look like. 8 A. That's supposed to be a "Z." That's 9 benzene. 10 Q. Okay . 11 A. Now, a -- a biphenyl is simply two of these 12 that are hooked together as a result, as I told you, 13 of pyrolysis . 14 Q. And what do we mean by the word 15 "pyrolysis"? 16 A. Heat. Heat, temperature. 17 Q. So, benzene, in the presence of heat, will 18 join those together to create a biphenyl molecule? 19 A. Yes. And that's a biphenyl, "bi" meaning 20 two of these. 21 Q. Okay. And do we have, then, 12 carbon 22 atoms with the -- 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. -- the biphenyl? 25 A. Yeah . NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMON0019166 77 1 Do you want to 3how those, too? 2 Q. Yes, if you could, that would be nice. 3 k. There's ten. 4 Q. Are there some there at the point they come 5 together, too? 6 A. Yeah . 7 Well, no, wait a minute. 8 Well, yes. They're -- they're hooked 9 together here. 10 Q. So, there are a couple of carbons in there? 1 1 A. But those are not available. 12 Q. Okay. But are there carbon atoms there, 13 actually, at that spot? 1 4 A. Yes, there would be carbon there. 15 Q. Okay. Why don't you go ahead and show 16 those there just for completeness? 17 A. The carbon here. 18 Q. Okay. 19 A. Would be one. 20 Q. Now, in going from benzene to diphenyl, is 21 that the process of manufacture: You start with 22 benzene; then you make the diphenyl? 2 3 A. Yes. 24 Q. You might label that one "biphenyl." 25 A. "Biphenyl." NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMON0019167 78 1 Q. Then after I have biphenyl, what do I do to 2 get PCB's from biphenyl? 3 A. You chlorinate. 4 Q. And what do you mean when you say 5 "chlorinate"? 6 A . Chlorine gas. 7 Q. But what is that - 8 A. With a catalyst. 9 Q. What does that result in happening, though? 10 A. Well, what this results in -11 Q. And why don't we draw another one of those 12 biphenyls down below, and then you can show how it 13 changes when it - 14 A. All right. 15 Q. -- when it's chlorinated. 16 A. Well, I'd rather just -- that's not drawn 17 too well, but here's a carbon. It is here. 18 Q. Okay. 19 A. Now, when you chlorinate, this is 20 actually -- 21 Do you want me to show hydrogen? 22 Q. That's fine. You can show the hydrogen up 23 there. There is -- is there a hydrogen in each one 24 of those carbons? 25 A. Yeah. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC, HARTOLDMON0019168 79 1 Q. Okay. 2 A. Yeah. Then I don't need to show that. 3 All right. There's a hydrogen at each 4 one of those. Now, when you chlorinate, you remove 5 a hydrogen here and you substitute a chlorine there. 6 Q. Okay. 7 A. And you get off -- this is C12. It's 8 hydrogen gas. You get off hydrogen chloride gas. 9 Q. Okay. 10 A. Now, this is monochlorobiphenyl. 1 1 Q. That means it has one chlorine? 12 A. One. And it can be on any of those 13 places. It doesn't matter with mono. But, now, if 14 you continue the chlorination, you can get two 15 chlorines 16 Q. Okay. And what do I have when I do 1 7 A . Dichlorobiphenyl. 18 Q. And if I keep on going, what happens 19 A. Trichlorobiphenyl. 20 Q. Can I keep on going further? 21 A. Tetrachlorobiphenyl. 22 Q. Can I go yet further? 23 A . Pentachlorobiphenyl. 24 Q That's what? Five? Are we at five? 25 A . Five. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMON0019169 80 1 Q. Okay. Can I go to six? 2 A . Yeah . 3 Q. What do I get there? 4 A . Hexachlorobiphenyl. 5 Q. Can I keep on going above six? 6 A . Yeah . 7 Q. That would be seven. What do I 8 seven chlorines? 9 A. Septi-. 10 Q. Can I go to eight? 11 A. Octa-. 12 Q. Eight. Okay. Nine? 13 A. Nona-. 14 Q. Ten? 15 A. There you hit everything. Deca-. 16 Q. Okay. But there are - 17 A. But don't try it. 18 Q. Okay. 19 A. It's difficult to do. 20 Q. Okay. 21 A. And you have no use for it. 22 Q. If you get that, you haven't got anything 23 worthwhile? 24 A. You've got a white powder. 25 Q. What was the highest level that you would NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMON0019170 8l 1 actually go to in production to make something 2 useful? 3 A. The highest level this was useful in t.he 4 dielectric area, certainly, would be the hexa-, the 5 six. 6 Q. Six? 7 A. (Witness nods head) 8 Q. Now, I take it that as I go through the 9 process of adding chlorine to this biphenyl to make 10 my PCB that we've shown there on the bottom of that 11 page with the chlorine on it - 12 A . CJh-huh . 13 Q. -- I can have a lot of different things 14 that get made? 15 A. Oh, yes . Yeah. 16 Q. How many different possible combinations 17 could I come up with? 18 A. Well, why don't you rephrase that? If 19 we're trying to make -- let's say trichlorobiphenyl, 20 three chlorines in the ring -21 Q. Okay? 22 A. -- you can have a small amount of 23 monochloro present. You can have a relatively small 24 amount of dichlor present. Predominantly you will 25 have three, which is trichlor, which is what we're NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMON0019171 1 trying to make. 2 We're chlorinating actually 42 percent 3 by weight. 4 Q. That'a three - 5 A. Three chlorines, yes. 6 Now, there will be some tetra- and 7 maybe some penta-. 0 Q. Okay . 9 A. And that's essentially it in trichlor. The 1 0 reason I say that, that was one of the main items 1 1 that were made, used both in capacitors and 12 trans formers. 13 Q. Now, I've seen the term "isomer." What is 14 an "isomer"? 15 A. Well, these things -- the isomers -- for 16 instance, obviously there's no isomer here. Because 17 it doesn't matter where we have that thing -18 Q. You've just got one? 19 A. -- you got one. But if you have dichloro 20 thie can be -- this can -- say, it's -- I forget 21 just how the chlorination proceeds, but no matter. 22 Probably it wouldn't be here where I put it. 23 Say, put it here. This would be 24 directive. In accordance with what the good Lord 25 provided for us, a chlorine here, as I remember from NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMON0019172 83 1 years ago, that would probably be directive to 2 placing a second chlorine here. But there could be 3 a chlorine going here, as this. 4 Q. Okay. 5 A. You're getting isomers. 6 Q. So, they both got - 7 A. And you could put one down here with a 8 dichloro. 9 In a trichloro, you got different 10 configurations on isomers. 11 Q. So, we have two biphenyl molecules with the 12 same amount of chlorine; but the chlorine - 13 A. In different positions. 14 Q. -- is located in different spots? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. By the way, were PCB's a naturally 17 occurring chemical; or were those just man-made? 18 A. Those are man-made. 19 Q. Okay. Now, in terms of this mixture, 20 you've mentioned, for example, if we were making 21 trichloro, we'd have some with just one; some with 22 two; some with four; some with five; and, hopefully, 23 predominantly - 24 A. Yes, right. 25 Q. -- PCB's with three chlorines. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMON0019173 84 1 In the process of manufacture, would 2 there be anything else besides just PCB's made, any 3 lepurities that were made along the line? 4 A, Not to ay knowledge, no. 5 Q. Okay. You're not aware of any impurities 6 that would be manufactured at any point in time, 7 then, by Monsanto in making PCB's? 8 A. No. And this was made to a very high 9 degree of purity. 1 0 Q. When you say "a high degree of purity," 1 1 what would there -- what impurities could there be? 12 I guess I'm -- I'm confused by that. 13 A. I would say, since we're trying to make a 14 chlorinated biphenyl, it's conceivable that there 15 could be remaining some molecules of biphenyl. 16 Q. So that it didn't get any chlorine? 17 A. It didn't get any chlorine. 18 Q. Okay. 19 A. I would say that. 20 Q. Did you ever work with any of the processes 21 where people were trying to actually purify these 22 PCB's for use -- actual uses? 23 A. The method of purification, the final 24 purification, was to treat them with attapulgua clay 25 or fuller's earth. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMON0019174 85 1 Q. How -- you filtered it through that? 2 A. You filtered it through that. Now, that 3 waa the way it was purified, final purification. 4 Q. You mentioned to me that there was -- it 5 was very important this electrical PCB be very 6 pure. Did that get special treatment to make sure 7 it was especially pure versus PCB' s that were used, 8 for example, as plasticizers, as you mentioned, or 9 used in adhesives or sealing compounds, things like 10 that? 11 A. I think it was all made the same. 12 Q. So, actually everything that was produced, 13 then, was electrical grade? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. Okay. Dr. Munch and Dr. Richards talked 16 about a compound called a "furan." Do you know what 17 a "furan" is? 18 A. Yes, I know what a "furan" is from a 19 chemical standpoint. I don't know if I'd draw the 20 formula. That -- that was foreign to me. 21 Q. Okay. You're not very familiar with those? 22 A. I'm not familiar with -- with that. This 23 is correc t. 24 Q. Okay. And not sure you could draw it for 25 us like you've drawn the sketches of benzene and NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMON0019175 86 1 diphenyl and - 2 A. I'n not sure I could even draw it properly. 3 Q. Okay. I won't ask you to do that, then. 4 How's that? 5 A. Well, I couldn't. I -- I'd think I'd louse 6 it up. 7 Q. Okay. Well -- well, that's fair enough, 8 t hen . 9 Let ae get the reporter to mark the 10 chart we've got up here as the second exhibit in 11 this deposition. 12 (Benignus Exhibit No. 2 Barked 13 for identification) 14 Q. (By Mr. Lacey) Mr. Benignus, has our 15 reporter now marked as Benignus Exhibit No. 2 the 16 drawing you've done for us of benzene, diphenyl, and 17 how we would chlorinate diphenyl to make a PCB? 18 A. I'm sorry? 19 Q. Let me repeat. Has the reporter now marked 20 for us as Benignus Exhibit No. 2 the drawing you did 21 of benzene, diphenyl, and how we would chlorinate 22 diphenyl to make a PCB? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. Okay. Let me turn your attention now to 25 the matter you mentioned to me earlier, about the NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMON0019176 87 1 relationship between General Electric and Monsanto 2 a* related to electrical uses of PCB's. 3 You mentioned to me that General 4 Electric had a lot to do with the use of PCB's in 5 electrical equipment. And you mentioned a -- was it 6 Frank Clark? 7 A. Frank M. Clark. 8 Q. Okay. Now, going back to what you told me 9 about history, PCB's were first commercially 10 produced by Swann Chemical Company? 1 1 A. Yes. 12 Q. What purpose were they produced for, if you 13 know? 14 A. The purpose, as I know, Swann had made 15 biphenyl as an indirect heat transfer medium. And 16 they built a plant to make this material without 17 knowing, really, what kind of a market there would 18 be for this. And this is history that I'm 19 repeating, that was told to me. 20 Mr. Swann went -- this arose at a oil 21 refiners' convention, who somehow or another had 22 knowledge that chlorinated -- that biphenyl is very 23 thermally stable for an organic material. 24 So, these people were talking about an 25 indirect heat transfer medium called "biphenyl." NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMON0019177 88 1 Mr.- Swann didn't know what this was, but he was the 2 kind of a person, "If you'll make this order big 3 enough. I'll take it." So, he goes back to Anniston 4 with an order for -- I forget. It's not 5 important -- a tank car or two tank cars. And they 6 made it. 7 Q. You're talking about biphenyl? 8 A. Biphenyl. 9 And they looked in Beilstein. There's 1 0 a little chapter in there. You pyrolyze benzene, 11 and then that causes this union of two benzene 12 rings. That's biphenyl. _ 13 Well, there was no more business. So, 1 4 here, he had a plant and no business. Well, what's 15 a logical thing to do? 16 Q. He went to look for a market. 17 . You look for a market. And how do you do 18 this? You do it with the easiest, the cheapest 19 thing to do that gives you the greatest family of 20 different items. And this is a big family. 21 This is why it was done. 22 Q. Now, when you say -- what's a big family? 23 Chlorinating it? 24 A. No, no. The big family are -- are the - 25 all these things you're talking about. Mono-, di-. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMON0019178 89 1 tri-, penta-, tetra-. You get properties a3 thin as 2 water to viscous thick things to solid things. 3 You've got all kinds of properties. 4 Now, hopefully somebody would have an 5 interest in these. And, as I told you earlier, the 6 first use was probably a nitrocellulose lacquer as a 7 plasticizer. 8 Then, the unusual thing about this is 9 they didn't support combustion, which is very 10 unusual for an organic chemical, if you want to say 1 1 a half of it is organic and half is inorganic. I 12 don't know, you know, when we get to penta-, we're 13 half and half. 14 Q. You're talking about weight, of course, at 15 that point? 16 A. Weight, by weight of chlorine versus the 17 hydrogen, is really what I'm talking about. Now - 18 or the organic part of it, the chlorine inorganic 19 versus half of the carbon being the organic. 20 So, Mr. Clark was looking for a 21 badly-needed replacement for mineral oil for the 22 reasons that we discussed. 23 Q. Okay. 24 A. It's not stable and it caused fires and 25 these capacitors were virtual bombs. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMON0019179 90 1 He finds this of interest as a 2 dielectric. He studied it and he patented it and 3 this was, therefore, the property of the General 4 Electric Company. 5 Q. Now, what did Mr. Clark patent? 6 A. He patented the use of the PCB's. He 7 patented use versus what we patented, which was a 8 process manufacturing patent. 9 Q. Okay. 10 A. G.E. patented the use. And the uses, as 1 1 we've been talking about, was mainly capacitors and 12 transformers. 13 Q. So, Monsanto, then, had a patent on the 14 manufacture of PCB's and General Electric had a 15 patent on the use of PCB's manufactured by Monsanto 16 for electrical applications? 17 A. Correct. 18 Q. And then other people could buy PCB's from 19 Monsanto for uses, plasticizers and all these other 20 uses? 21 A. This is right. 22 Q. But they couldn't buy PCB's for the purpose 23 of dielectric uses? 24 A. Only -- in those days, only through General 25 Electric Company. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMON0019180 9l 1 Q. Okay. So, essentially that gave General 2 Electric, then, a monopoly on the use of PCB's as a 3 dielectric fluid? 4 A. Yes. They licensed people. 5 Q. They allowed other people to use PCB's? 6 A. If they're licensed, yes. 7 Q. And did those people, then, buy their PCB's 8 from Monsanto, too? 9 A. In the early days -- now, this is just 10 going back before my time. In the early days they 11 probably placed all orders direct with G.B. 12 Monsanto's function in the early time and -- in 13 through to the end, really, it was to manufacture 14 and supply. 15 In the early days, probably people, 16 the licensees of G.E., may have gotten through 1 7 direct instructions from G.B. I don't know. 18 Q. Okay. 19 A. Monsanto supplied -20 Q. The materials? 21 A. -- whoever wasentitled to use them. 22 Monsanto's role was to make it and supply it, 23 regardless as to what -24 Q. At any point in time while you were at 25 Monsanto, did Monsanto actually do any research NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMON0019181 92 1 itself on formulations of PCB ' s for use as 2 dielectric fluid? Or did they leave all of that 3 entirely to G.E.? 4 A. That was G.E.'s specification, and the 5 electrical industry formulated what they felt was 6 needed. No, Monsanto didn't do that. 7 Q. So, you don't recall Monsanto at any point 8 in time ever doing its own research to try to come 9 up with a specific formulation of PCB's for any 10 particular electrical use? 11 A. No. No. No. 12 Q. That just wouldn't have been something that 13 was within the province of Monsanto Company under 14 its particular role in this arrangement? 15 MR. CRAWFORDi What do you mean by 16 "province"? I'm sorry. 17 MR. LACEYs Well, I -- he's defined, I 18 think, Monsanto as the manufacturer. 19 Q. (By Mr. Lacey) Correct? 20 A. Right. 21 Q. And General Electric as the designer of - 22 A. Right. 23 Q. -- what was to be manufactured? 24 A . Right. . 25 Q. And it wouldn't be within the province of NELL NIC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMON0019182 1 Monsanto to try to reformulate what it manufactured 2 for a particular application in the electric field? 3 A. That's right. Because the electrical user 4 specified what he wanted. We didn't care what he 5 used. 6 Q. As long as it was PCB's? 7 A. Well, that's what we were making, yes. He 8 didn't care what -- whether he wanted trichloro, 9 tetrachloro, penta-. It was simple. We could make 10 anything that they wanted. 1 1 Q. The only interest of Monsanto was that they 12 be the person that they would buy the product from? 13 A. This is correct. 14 Q. Now, did General Electric from time to time 15 change the formulas that it wanted Monsanto to 16 produce? 17 A. Yes . 18 Q. And do you know what it was that caused 19 those changes in formulations, or was that something 20 that was entirely up to General Electric and you - 21 A. It was up to General Electric. 22 Q. What about other electrical manufacturers; 23 did they eventually get involved in specifying the 24 formulas of PCB's that they wanted for their use? 25 A. Yes. Everybody had the right to do this. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMON0019183 94 1 Q. And did others, in fact, do it? 2 A. Yea. 3 Q. And was Monsanto willing to work with 4 anybody who wanted to specify a particular formula 5 of PCB's for electrical application? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. Was it Mr. Clark who first specified a 8 formula of PCB's for electrical use? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. And was that back in the days of Swann 1 1 Chemical Company? 12 A. Yes . 13 Q. And, so, when Monsanto acquired Swann, it 14 continued doing the formulations according to 15 Mr. Clark's directions? 16 A. Yes . 17 Q. Did Monsanto make forms of PCB's other than 18 the electrical formulations provided by General 19 Electric? 20 A. (No response) 21 Q. In other words -- let me make myself 22 clear -- if General Electric specified three 23 chlorine atoms, for example, on* a molecule, did 24 Monsanto also maybe make one with tivb chlorine i 25 atoms for some other nonelectrical purpose? NELL NIC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMON0019184 95 1 A. This has happened, but by and large they 2 followed what was done by General Electric. 3 Everybody fell in line with that. There are some 4 exceptions to this. 5 Q. I guess my question -- 6 A. But, again, it was no -- no doings oC 7 Monsanto. He supplied what was asked for. 8 Q. Okay. 9 A. He didn't ask why and so forth. 10 Q. And my question is whether'or not that was 11 true for nonelectrical uses as well as electrical 12 uses . 13 A. Hell, I'm not in the nonelectrical end of 14 this thing. 15 Q. Okay. So, you don't know about that? 16 A. I wouldn't be in position to -- to comment 17 on that. 18 Q. Okay. That's fine. 19 Now, when you became involved in the 20 marketing program in the mid 1960's - 21 A. Uh-huh. 22 Q. -- what specifically did you have to do 23 with marketing in -- in the function of this title 24 that you had? 25 And have I got it right that you were NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMON0019185 96 1 the marketing manager for these dielectric uses? 2 A. I don't know whether I had that title at 3 that point in time or not. It didn't matter. 4 Q. Okay. 5 A. That title arrived when I got traveling 6 around the world. You know, they call everybody 7 "doctor." When you go to South America and where 8 not, everybody's a doctor. You know how that is. 9 And this title is somewhat along that 1 0 line, to come right down to it. 1 1 Q. Okay. 12 A. I was never hung up on that title one way 13 or another. 14 Q. Well, when you started traveling, what sort 15 of people were you visiting with and what sort of 16 matters were you taking care of with them? 17 A. Again, primarily the purpose of my 18 traveling was along the lines of the activity in our 19 USA of the American Society for Testing and 20 Materials . 21 Q. That's ASTM? 22 A. ASTM, yes. 23 I'd taken that over as -- Frank Clark 24 originally was chairman of the subcommittee on 25 synthetic dielectrics. And I was active there. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMON0019186 97 1 And my travels overseas was along the 2 very same lines, where we would be invited -- the 3 electrical industry would be invited by various 4 governments to set up their specifications and 5 things on an international basis. It's essentially 6 the same thing, but worldwide. That was the main 7 reason why I traveled. 8 Q. Let me go back and see if I understand. 9 The ASTM had a subcommittee that dealt with 10 synthetic dielectrics? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. And did that subcommittee have a name or 13 anything like that? 14 A. ASTM D-27. It's still in existence. 15 Q. Okay. And the first person who worked on 16 that was Mr. Clark? 17 A. Yeah. He was the inventor of it, yes. 18 Q. Okay. And how long did Mr. Clark have that 19 particular role? 20 A. Oh, I don't know. He was older, and I 2 1 don't know when Frank passed away. 22 Q. Hell, I guess I was trying to find out if 23 you came directly after Mr. Clark or there were some 24 other people - 25 A. No, I didn't come directly after him. Some NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMON0019187 98 1 of his assistants came after him. 2 Q. Mere you the first non-G.E. person to hold 3 the position as the -- I guess, chairman, would it 4 be, of that - 5 A. Yeah, the chairman of that subcommittee. 6 I'm not sure of that, either. It 7 could have been a Meetinghouse man. 8 Q. Okay. Now, do you recall about when you 9 became chairman of the D-27 section of the ASTM? 1 0 A. I don't know exactly. I would say sometime 11 in the mid 1960*s, 1960. 12 Q. In your -- I guess it would be fair to say 13 "world travels"? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. Your -- your world travels were primarily 16 in your role as chairman of that -- that D-27 17 subcommittee? 18 A. Well, this is how it turned out to be, 19 essentially. That would be what would be the 20 crmation, the Instigation, of my traveling, say, to 21 France or to Germany or wherever we were, Iran. I 22 almost got killed in Iran. I was invited by the 23 Government. 24 THE WITNESS: Don't write that in. 25 Q. (By Mr. Lacey) Did -- did you do this NELL NIC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMON0019188 99 1 traveling on your vacation time, or was this 2 considered part of your work or - 3 A. It was work. 4 Q. So, Monsanto was actually paying you - 5 A. Sure. 6 Q. -- for carrying out your duties as chairman 7 of that D-27 subcommittee? 8 A. (Witness nods head) 9 Q. Is that correct? 10 A. Yes. I was an employee of Monsanto. 11 Q. Why would Monsanto compensate you for being 12 on this subcommittee and traveling around the 13 world? Is there any relationship between your work 14 and what you were doing on the subcommittee or - 15 A. Well, it made sense. That's the only way I 16 can answer this. 17 Q. Well, I mean, was there some benefit for 18 Monsanto in your traveling around the world in 19 connection with this D-27 subcommittee chairmanship? 20 A. Along the same lines as there would be 21 benefit in this country, whatever that would be, a 22 benefit to the electrical industry, who have you, 23 G.E., Westinghouse, other members of the committee. 24 That committee is still in existence. 25 Q. I guess I'm trying to understand whether -- NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMON0019189 10 0 1 whether you had been told or appreciated that maybe 2 your work there would help Monsanto sell more of its 3 PCS'* for that type of use. 4 A. No, not sell more. But -- I see now what 5 you're driving at. 6 I told you initially in our discussion 7 here that I was active, long before I got to ASTM, 8 in correlating, in setting up specification -- or 9 probing, verifying, probing -- I didn't establish 10 them -- physical constants. 1 1 And if you will look at the 12 specifications of these Askarels, you'll see what 13 these things are. Now, this is essentially a 14 continuation of that. And that's what ASTM did. 15 Their title is the American Society 16 for Testing. This is procedures and materials. So, 17 it's not only testing procedures, but it is setting 18 specifications for the materials. 19 Q. Mould your work in this area have included 20 encouraging other countries to set specifications 21 for electrical equipment and particular applications 22 that would use, then, PCB transformers to meet them? 23 A. What the work was was to present exactly 24 the same specifications we had in the U.S. 25 Q. And attempt to get them adopted by some NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMON0019190 10 1 1 group or -- or - 2 A. That was up to them. They Invited us. Me 3 didn't encourage them to invite us. The Russians 4 claimed they couldn't have carried on their 5 industrial revolution without capacitors, the PCB 6 capacitors. I didn't go to Russia to sell PCB's. 7 Q Okay. Did you participate in any other 8 groups like the ASTM that were involved in 9 dielectric matters? 10 A. This was essentially it, ASTM. 11 Q. Did ASTM representatives get involved with 12 any particular trade associations or anything like 13 that that might be relevant to electrics? 14 A. At ASTM it was strictly technology. They 15 strictly did not use trade names. They were very 16 careful about anything that was proprietary or 17 patentable or that sort of thing. 18 Even if it dealt with some kind of a 19 piece of apparatus that we might use to analyze 20 something, if that was proprietary and restricted, 21 we didn't proceed with that for that reason. It was 22 a technical organization. 23 Q. Okay. 24 A. Not commercial in any way. 25 Q. Okay. In the 1960's, were you aware of NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMON0019191 102 1 the -- the work that was coming to light about 2 potential problems with PCB'a? 3 k. In the 1960 ' s? 4 Q. Yea. S A. Well, specifically what are you asking me 6 about? 7 Q. Well, I know that Dr. Richard told me about 8 some work of some Swedish people -9 A. Yea. 10 Q. -- on the PCB's. 1 1 A. Yea, I saw it. Yea, the answer is "yes." 12 I heard about it. 13 Q. Did that have any impact on your work at 14 all? Were you involved in any way in anything 15 related to that? 16 A. No. No, I wasn't. I heard about it. 17 Q. At any point in your career before your 18 retirement, did you ever have anything to do with 19 things related to environmental problems or any 20 other types of problems arising out of PCB'a? 21 A. No. 22 Q. All the -- strike that. 23 Were there people at Monsanto, to your 24 knowledge, who had anything to do with those 25 environmental-type problems? NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMON0019192 103 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. Who dealt with those matters? 3 A. I would say Dr. Richard. 4 Q. Anybody else? 5 A. Well, i think you ought to talk to the - 6 the people in -- in that area rather than that I 7 proceed along those lines. 8 I had nothing to do with that, 9 essentially. I had nothing to do with it. You're 10 talking about the BPA and all of this. 11 Q. Yeah, or anything that Monsanto did by way 12 of changing its procedures at all because of those 13 problems, anything that Monsanto did in changing the 14 way it dealt with customers at all because of those 15 problems, or anything like that. Did you have 16 anything to do with any of that? 17 A. Oh, yes . 18 Q. Well, that's what I'm trying to find out 19 about. Maybe I'm asking the question the wrong way, 20 but I'm -21 A. Well, maybe you don't know what question to 22 ask. 23 Q. That -- that's probably true. 24 A. Well -- 25 Q. Let me -- let me see if I can narrow down NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMON0019193 104 1 what I'* trying to find out about. 2 I want to know about whatever you may 3 have done while you were employed by Monsanto that 4 in any way was a response to problems that came to 5 light in the 1960's with PCB' s. 6 A. I will give you a specific answer -7 Q. Okay. 8 A. -- to your question. 9 Q. Good. 10 A. Now, in response to this environmental 11 objection, which was the slow biodegrading character 12 of PCB's because of their great stability, Monsanto, 13 in response to this, spent a lot of money and made a 14 big effort to satisfy -- more satisfy what the 15 environaentalists wanted. 16 They were saying that the more highly 17 chlorinated isomers were the slow ones to 18 biodegrade. Monsanto responded. They went into 19 this molecule here and, in simple terms, pulled out 20 am much as the^ could -- trichlorobipheny1 was the 21 material I'm talking about -- they pulled out as 22 much as was feasible or they were able to pull 23 out -- even at considerable expense to do what they 24 were able to do - 25 MR. CRANFORD t Mr. Benignus, let me -- NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMON0019194 105 1 I hate to interrupt the flow here; but Mr. Lacey 2 asked you a specific question about what you did. 3 And I think if you could narrow your focus on what 4 you did, we'll move along; and you'll answer his 5 question, which I think he wants you -- you to do, 6 if I ' m - 7 A. Have you heard of Aroclor 1016? 8 Q. (By Mr. Lacey) I have. 9 A. All right. 10 Q. And I guess ay question to you 1st What 11 role did you have in - 12 A. With Aroclor 1016. 13 Q. Or any other response that Monsanto aay 14 have had. 15 A. 1016. 16 Well, if I'd been asked that question 17 relative to Aroclor 1016, I would have said the 18 following -- and this is what I'a leading up to - 19 ay role in this was to explain Aroclor 1016 to our 20 cuitossrs. This is a major change, now, for them. 21 A aajor question isi Do they have to redesign this 22 whole capacitor system they were producing? 23 I explained to them that, based on the 24 capacitance measurements, this would not cause any 25 significant problem whatsoever of converting to NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES. INC. HARTOLDMON0019195 106 1 Aroclor 1016. And they adopted it. That was my 2 r ole. 3 Q. So, you were -- you were given the charge 4 of convincing the customers to change over frosi 5 whatever they'd been previously been using to 6 Aroclor 1016? 7 A . That's the answer. 8 Q What had previously been used, before 9 Aroclor 1016? 1 0 A . Aroclor 1242. 11 Q Now, the Aroclor 1242, was that a product 12 that was specified by General Electric? 13 A . Yes . 14 Q. And was it General Electric who developed 15 and specified Aroclor 1016? 16 A . NO . 17 Q. Well, who developed and specified Aroclor 18 1016? 19 A. Monsanto did that work. 20 Q. Okay. 21 A . And we had to introduce it. And obviously 22 it wasn't going to go anywhere unless O.B. and the 23 industry approved it. 24 Q. well, why did Monsanto step in and start 25 developing dielectric fluids instead of just NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMON0019196 10 7 1 manufacturing what had previously been specified by 2 people like General Electric and others? 3 A. Because -- this is why I was talking about 4 this thing before you interrupted it. i don't know 5 who interrupted ne. 6 Q. I think Mr. Crawford interrupted. And if 7 you need to go ahead - 8 A. Well -- 9 Q. -- and give us the answer, well, go ahead 10 and do that. I want to understand what happened. 11 A. Please repeat the question. 12 Q. Okay. My specific question 1st Why did 13 Monsanto step in and develop Aroclor 1016 itself 14 instead of just continuing to make the PCB's 15 specified by General Electric and others for the 16 dielectric uses? 17 A. Let as go through this again. 18 Q. Okay. 19 A. The environnenta 1ists objected, as I said, 20 to the slow biodegradability of Aroclor 1242. As I 21 already said, they found and believed -- and there 22 was concurrence -- that the more highly chlorinated 23 i8omers are the components of 1 242 that are the 24 slowst to biodegrade. 25 Mow, there was interest on the part of NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMON0019197 108 1 everybody to satisfy, if possible, what the 2 enviromental i s t s were asking for. This was shared 3 by Monsanto, everybody. 4 Now, Monsanto is a place where Aroclor 5 1242 is being made. Monsanto was the location 6 where, if anything can be done, it must be done 7 there. Now, if somebody else wanted to do this, 8 they were welcome. Nobody is -- there's no 9 restrictions. Anybody could do this if they wished 10 to undertake it. 11 Monsanto rolled up its sleeves and did 12 what possible they could do to remove the most . 13 objectionable, let's say, components of Aroclor 14 1242. This is then called "Aroclor 1016," which is 15 a research laboratory notebook number. It's not in 16 line with their nomenclature overall. It was a 17 special thing done by Monsanto. 18 If you could have gotten somebody else 19 to do it, proceed. This is -- this is -- is it. 20 And, then, when this was done, well, this is a 21 material that isn't precisely what had been used. 22 So, somebody had to run through the physical and 23 electrical constants on this. Then somebody had to 24 present this picture, this material, to whoever was 25 interested, which was, among others, Q.E.; and they NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMON0019198 109 1 would have to approve It. 2 Me had nothing to do with the 3 approval. If they would have said "no," then the 4 answer was "no." 5 Q. Has Aroclor 1016 the very first time that 6 Monsanto had ever developed a product for dielectric 7 use and attempted to get the approval of General 8 Electric and others for it? 9 A. As far as I know. 10 Q. So, always before that point in time. 11 General Electric or some other electrical supplier 12 would develop the formulation for the product and 13 simply ask Monsanto to manufacture it? 14 A. Absolutely. And this was very much my work 15 through the years, to give assurance of the quality, 16 the continuity of the quality of this material, that 17 there shall be no change whatsoever. 18 And when we talk about 1016, obviously 19 everybody was aware a change had been made. 20 Q. Hell, can you tell me -- and you may not 21 know the answer -- but can you tell me why, for the 22 first time ever, Monsanto decided to try to develop 23 a dielectric fluid and then sell it to people like 24 General Blectric instead of simply making what they 25 wanted? NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMON0019199 110 1 A. You got this -- I'm sorry. You've got this 2 all wrong. 3 Q. Well, explain it to me, then. I - 4 A. They -- they wanted something -5 Q. I see. 6 A. -- if possible. They wanted something -7 Q. Okay. 8 A. -- to satisfy the environmentalists. 9 Q. So, they directed what it was Monsanto was 10 to look for; and you went out and found it? 11 A. They certainly concurred with this. What 12 else could you do to enhance the biodegradability 13 but take out the slow biodegradable components? And 14 if this would satisfy the environmentalists, 15 hurray. 16 It didn't satisfy the 17 environmentalists. 18 Q. Well, let me stop and ask -19 A. So, you -- I'm sorry. You were wrong in 20 saying that we were making something that -- that - 21 I forget what you -- what you said. 22 Q. Well, you -- as I understood it, you made 23 Aroclor 1016 - 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. -- and then went to convince people to NELL NIC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMONO019200 111 1 change over to it and use it? 2 A. They would have to try it to see if, 3 indeed, they wanted to use it. He couldn't force 4 thee to use it. 5 Q. I understand. 6 A. But they sought this kind of a approach to 7 helping the -- the situation that we were in, which 8 was objection by the environnenta1its. 9 Q. And one of your jobs was to go to these 1 0 people after you'd aade Aroclor 1016 and attempt to 1 1 convince thee to use it? 12 A . No . 13 Q. NO? 14 A. This isn't really right, and I'm not trying 15 to change it. In a way, you're right; and in a way, 16 you're wrong. 17 I went out, lets say, as a Messenger. 18 "After we have done this to try to enhance the 19 biodegradability, this is what we have." 20 Now, this is a change In a very 21 critical system. I can't dictate whether they would 22 or wouldn't use it. 23 I present you with this material. 24 "This is what we have." It is up to you to test it, 25 to probe it, and decide do you want this or don't NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMONO019201 112 1 you want it. We had nothing to do with this. 2 Q. Okay. So - 3 A. To answer your question, I acted in the 4 role of a Messenger. 5 Q. Okay. Let me nake sure I understand. And 6 let's look at Aroclor 1242, which is what people had 7 been using? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. And then Aroclor 1016, which Monsanto had 10 developed, correct? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. And you're telling me that if a 13 manufacturer said, "I want to stay with Aroclor 14 1242. I don't want to buy 1016. I'm convinced with IS what has always worked for me," you would continue 16 to sell them the 1242? 17 A. I can't answer that specifically, but there 18 was no ban on Aroclor 1242, that I know of, at that 19 point in time. Whoever wanted to buy it at that 20 point in time, they could, in their judgment, 21 continue. And there was no restriction at that 22 point in time. 23 Q. So -24 A. It was up to them. 25 Q. Monsanto would continue to -- NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMONO019202 113 1 A. Now, wait a minute. I want to say 2 something. My role as a messenger primarily focused 3 on thimi that the physical characteristics and the 4 electrical characteristics were essentially the 5 same. 6 But I come to you and say, "This is 7 this material." I say this to you. It is still up 8 to you to probe this, to test it, and satisfy 9 yourself that you will go to market with it. All 1 0 I'm saying is, "Look, this is not a significant 11 change as far as your capacitor design is 12 concerned. " 13 Q. And my single question - 14 A. That is it. 15 Q. My single question is thati Monsanto was 16 ready, willing, and able to sell Aroclor 1242 to any 17 company that wanted to continue to use that in lieu 18 of changing over to 1016; is that correct? 19 A. I would say probably it's correct. I 20 really don't -21 Q. You don't know? 22 A. I -- I don't know the -- the -- I don't - 23 I'm telling you, to my knowledge, there was no ban 24 on 1242 -25 Q. No, that's not my question. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMONO019203 11 4 1 A. -- or restriction. 2 Q. And maybe I -- maybe I'm -- I don't want to 3 get involved in bans. 4 Monsanto could choose to sell or not 5 sell Aroclor to whomever it chose, could it not? 6 A. Never did. 7 Q. Well - 8 A. Anybody that wanted to buy it was welcome 9 to buy it. 10 Q. I'm sorry. I guess I've looked at some 11 Monsanto documents that have been produced that 12 suggest they started refusing to sell Aroclor for 13 many applications. 14 A. Well, you're absolutely right, in a period 15 of time that isn't relative to what I'm talking 16 about. 17 Q. Well, okay. I -- let's get our periods of 18 time clarified, then. 19 A. All right. 20 Q. I'm talking about from the time that 21 environmental concerns about PCB's arose until you 22 retired from Monsanto. 23 A. All right. 24 Q. And my question 1st What role, if any, did 25 you have to do with the response by Monsanto to NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMONO019204 115 1 those environmental concerns? 2 And what you've told me is you were 3 involved in Aroclor 1016. 4 A. In introducing it to them. 5 Q. Right. And -- 6 A. Presenting it, yes. 7 Q. And the question I've got, specifically 8 about 1242, is whether Monsanto, to your knowledge, 9 ever introduced any restrictions on the sale of 10 Aroclor 1242 for dielectric uses while you were an 11 employee of Monsanto. 12 A. Not that I know of. 13 Q. Okay. During the period of time that you 14 were an employee for Monsanto, specifically in the 15 1970's, Monsanto did cease to sell Aroclor for some 16 nonelectrical applications? 17 A. Correct. 18 Q. And that was their right as the 19 manufacturer of the chemical, to sell or not sell? 20 A. They did. They got out of the business, 21 this is correct. 22 Q. Okay. And Monsanto, if it chose, could 23 have refused to sell Aroclor 1242 to someone and 24 say, "The only thing I'm going to sell you is 1016," 25 correct? NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMONO019205 116 1 A. I don't know that that ever happened or -2 Q< Ho. I'm not asking whether it did. I'm 3 juet making whether that was a right that Monsanto 4 had. 5 A. I would have to say that -- I assume it's a 6 right. Then -- then, if Monsanto did that, then the 7 people who insisted on 1242 could get it elsewhere, 8 import it if need be. 9 Q. Or switch over to 1016? 10 A. Or switch to 1016 if this is what they 11 elected to do. 12 Here again, I think you need to keep 13 in mind a change like this would have been probed 14 and mainly decided by someone with the capability of 15 General Electric; and the others would tend to fall 16 in line with whatever went on at what point in time 17 they -- it made no difference to us what they 18 wanted, which one. It made no difference to us, 19 that I know of. 20 Q. All the way up until the tine you retired? 21 A. Yeah. But -- it wasn't banned. You don't 22 want the word "banned." It wasn't discontinued at 23 the time I retired. 24 Q. Yeah, I guess -- I guess to separate this 25 ban, let me try to see if we can get that cleared NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMONO019206 117 1 up. 2 You're aware of the fact that the 3 Federal Government eventually did -- United States 4 Federal Governeent eventually did ban the 5 manufacture and the sale of PCB's, correct? 6 A . Yes . 7 Q. Okay. And I'a not talking about that 8 because that happened after you retired. 9 A . After I retired. 10 Q. Monsanto also stopped selling PCB's for 11 certain uses before you retired. 12 A . Right, nonelectrical. 13 Q Right. And I guess we can't call that a 14 ban. That wasn't -15 A . Discontinuation. 16 Q. Yeah, discontinuation. 17 A . I don't -- yeah, that's -- a ban is a 18 discontinuation in -19 Q. Yeah. 20 h. -- in ay terms here. 21 Q. Fine. Well, let me use that term, then. 22 As far as you know, it would have been 23 possible for Monsanto to discontinue sales of any 24 particular Aroclor product for any electrical 25 application, just like they did in nonelectrical NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMONO019207 1 18 1 applications, wouldn't it? 2 A. I suppose so. 3 Q. Were you involved at all in the decision by 4 Monsanto to aodify the terns of the sales contracts 5 that it had with people for the sell -- the sale of 6 FCB's for electrical uses? 7 A. "To aodify the contract." No. In fact, I 8 don't know what you're -- what contracts you're 9 talking about. I wasn't in that. 10 Q. Who -- who was responsible for the actual 11 sales of FCB's to Monsanto's electrical customers? 12 A. Who was -- please restate that. 13 Q. Yes. 14 A. Who was -15 Q. Who at -- who at Monsanto was responsible 16 for the sales of PCB's to custoaers for electrical 17 application? 18 A. This would be the business director. 19 Q. Mho would be whoa? 20 A. Howard Bergen. 21 Q. Okay. The reason I'm asking you these 22 questions -- and it's important to me -- I have 23 noticed a deposition of Monsanto to provide me with 24 a person who's knowledgeable about its marketing of 25 PCB's for dielectric purposes. And they've NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC.. HARTOLDMONO019208 1 19 1 presented you today and designated you as the person 2 who's knowledgeable about that. 3 One of the things - 4 A. I gather. 5 Q. One of the things I'm interested in is that 6 I have seen documents which suggest that Monsanto 7 modified the contracts or the purchase orders or the 8 invoices, whatever you want to call them, by which 9 it sold PCB's to its electrical customers to provide 10 that it could stop selling them PCB's in the event 11 those customers didn't handle those chemicals 12 correctly. 13 A. This is right. You're correct. 14 Q. Now, I'm trying to find out what you know 15 about that and what your involvement in that was. 16 A. I wasn't involved in that, but this is 17 correct. 18 Q. Okay. What can you tell me about that? 19 You're the designated representative to speak on 20 that. 21 MR. CRAWFORD: I think that's a 22 separate area, David, in your deposition -- I mean, 23 your 30(b)(6) notice. 24 MR. LACEY: Well, have you got some - 25 I guess I -- maybe I misunderstood, Walter, that you NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMONO019209 120 1 were designating hie as responsible for advertising 2 on dielectrics, marketing on dielectrics, technical 3 date on dielectrics, and the use of PCB's as 4 dielectrics. And it would seem to me that the 5 restrictions on the sale of PCB's as dielectrics 6 would fall into that category. 7 MR. CRANFORDi Yeah, they're -- I 8 think they're still looking for soaebody on that 9 last category that you -- you talk about. That's 10 the unilateral cessation of sales at Monsanto at 11 their sole discretion. I don't think - 12 THE WITNBSSI I an not the person 13 to - 14 MR. CRANFORD: He apparently doesn't IS know anything about that. 16 THE NITNBSS: I think we owe you an 17 apology. 18 MR. CRANFORD: On that - 19 THE NITNESS: Ne got you off on the 20 wrong -- 21 MR. CRANFORD: I think that -- so, 22 that's not his - 23 THE NITNESS: It's really not nine. 24 Q. (By Mr. Lacey) Okay. And the person that 25 you're aware of who would know about that is Howard NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMONO019210 121 1 Bergen? 2 A. He was at that tine. He was the business 3 director. 4 Q. Okay. Well, that's helpful to us. 5 From an informational standpoint, and 6 recognizing now that you're not going to be the 7 corporate representative on that issue, tell me what e you know about that area and what happened. 9 A. I would like to ask something here. May 1 0 I? 11 Q. Certainly. 12 MR. CRAWFORDi Well - 13 A. I think it's up to these people, if they 14 want me to pursue this or whether they're going to 15 come up with someone else to handle this with you. 16 Q. (By Mr. Lacey) Well, I - 17 A. I was not the business director. 18 Q. I understand that. 19 A. I wasn't in the business end. I will 20 honestly say I heard of, I knew some of these 21 things. I don't think I should be the one stating 22 this. I -- I don't think I'd be wrong; but I don't 23 think it's my area, really, to proceed in these 24 areas. 25 I know what you are asking about, yes. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMON0019211 122 1 Q. Well/ let me -- let me explain more about 2 it/ Mr. Benignus. You're here almost wearing two 3 hats today. 4 A. Or -5 Q. One hat -6 A. Or the rest of them. 7 Q. Well -- 8 A. You got about four more? 9 Q. You've at least got two. One of them is as 10 an individual who's a retired employee of Monsanto 11 whose deposition I've asked for - 12 A. Yeah. 13 Q. -- in asking for your deposition. And I 14 want to inquire of you in areas I'm -- I'm 15 interested in knowing what you may know either 16 because you were directly involved or you may know 17 because others have told you. 18 A. Dh-huh. 19 Q. A second role of that hat is the corporate 20 representative of Monsanto to testify about certain 21 22 MR. CRAWFORD: Well/ David, he -23 Q. (By Mr. Lacey) And - 24 MR.. CRAWFORDi Oh, go ahead. 25 Q. (By Mr. Lacey) And as I understand it. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMON0019212 123 1 I've now been told by Mr. Crawford that you're not 2 going to be the corporate representative to talk 3 on -- on Monsanto's behalf about the decision to 4 iepoae certain restrictions on -- or rights to 5 restrict the sale of PCB's for dielectric uses. And 6 we will let thee designate an appropriate individual 7 to testify about that. 8 I an, however, interested, in your 9 individual capacity, in finding out what you know 10 about that. It may well be in your identification 11 of other people they may -- you nay help us figure 12 out who could give us information on that. 13 A. Uh-huh. 14 Q. So, what I would like to know now is what 15 you do know about that, not because you were in 16 charge of it, because you were at Monsanto when it 17 took place. 18 A. I appreciate what you're saying. 19 Q. Okay. 20 A. I again want to ask -- I'm not in the legal 21 business. I again want to ask the Monsanto legal 22 people what I should do, what they want me to do. 23 MR. CRAWFORD: Well, let -- let me 24 just say this, Davidi He can talk about the sale of 25 PCB's in dielectric uses -- we've already talked NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMON0019213 124 1 about that -- the implementation -- I'm reading from 2 your notice -- of Monsanto's decision to limit the 3 sales to certain uses. 4 But the other category that you've 5 really tried to get into with him and he -- he's not 6 designated and that's -- that's where he's having 7 the difficulty and that's the decision to modify 8 contracts that you had and that includes a provision 9 for unilateral cessation of sales at Monsanto's sole 10 discretion. That's your word and your - 11 MR. LACBYi And I'a not - 12 MR. CRANFORDi Yeah. 13 MR. LACEYt Again, I have two notices 14 outt One is for this person individually - 15 MR. CRANFOROi Right. 16 MR. LACEY i -- another is a corporate 17 notice. 18 You're now telling me you don't intend 19 to designate him on that issue -- 20 MR . CRANFORDi Not on that issue -21 MR . LACEY t -- the corporate notice. 22 MR . CRANFORDi -- right. 23 MR . LACEYi Now -- 24 MR . CRANFORD: Me will designate a 25 person on that NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMON0019214 125 1 MR. LACEYi Fine. 2 MR. CRANFORDi -- and he's designated 3 as a person for the other -4 MR. LACEYi Fine. 5 MR. CRANFORDi -- for the other areas. 6 MR. LACEYi Now, I want to ask him 7 what he knows about that area, recognizing his 8 testimony - 9 MR. CRANFORDi Okay. 10 MR. LACEYi -- is not going to be 11 binding on the corporation. 12 I think he's asking you the question 13 whether you're going to let him answer the question 14 or not, and I guess you need to tell him the answer 15 to that. 16 MR. CRANFORDi Nell, the answer to 17 that is that you are not -- you have -- you have 18 been designated. And, as you told him, you are not 19 prepared to testify on that area. 20 So, you're not -- he's not designated 21 as a person -22 MR. LACEY t Yeah. The question I 23 think -24 MR. CRANFORDi -- with knowledge. 25 MR. LACEYi -- he's asked is whether NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC.. HARTOLDMON0019215 126 1 he can tell ne what he knows about it and answer my 2 questions . 3 MR. CRAWFORD: Well, I think that with 4 regard to that, he can testify about personal 5 knowledge; but I don't want him to get into an area 6 where he is not familiar with it. And I think 7 that's basically what he said. 8 MR. LACEY : Okay. Well, let's -- let 9 me just ask the questions, then. 10 Q. (By Mr. Lacey) Tell me what you heard 1 1 while you were an employee of Monsanto about the 12 reasons for the provisions that would allow Monsanto 13 to restrict the sale of PCB's for dielectric uses. 14 MR. CRAWFORD: Well, I don't -- if 15 you're going to ask him about what he heard, I would 16 rather you ask -- 1 would object to that on the 17 basis that you need to ask him what he was involved 18 in there and has personal knowledge of. 19 MR. LACEY: This is a discovery 20 deposition. I'm entitled to discover material that 21 may lead to the discovery of relevant information. 22 And one of the things I'm interested in doing is 23 finding out who was responsible for those decisions 24 and what I can about the basis for them, and I think 25 he's entitled to tell me. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMON0019216 127 1 MR. CRAWFORD: Well, if you know 2 Anybody who was -- who was responsible for those 3 decisions, you can tell hin that. But - 4 MR. LACEY: I'm -- Ia asking the 5 guestion what did he hear about it, period. He can 6 tell Re the names and everything else he heard about 7 it. This is a discovery deposition. 8 If we have to take up with the Court, 9 I guess we can; but I don't see why we should. I'm 10 entitled to find out information that may lead to 11 the discovery of relevant, admissible evidence. And 12 I think what he tells me about what he heard may 13 well lead to the discovery of relevant, admissible 14 evidence. 15 MR. CRAWFORD: I think if you know any 16 names, you can give hin those. 17 A. I named the business director was Howard 18 Bergen. 19 Q. (By Mr. Lacey) Okay. That's not my 20 question. Let me state my guestion again and you 21 either answer it or not answer it and we'll deal 22 with that from that point and - 23 A. All right. 24 Q. -- Mr. Crawford can object to it. 25 I want you to tell me what you heard NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMON0019217 128 1 about the reasons Cor Monsanto's decision to place 2 potential restrictions on the sale of pcb's as 3 dielectric fluid while you were an employee at 4 Monsanto -5 A. This is a -6 Q. -- dealing with dielectric fluid. 7 A. This is a very easy question to answer, 8 actually. 9 Q. Good. 10 A. It is -- ay answer is based on the fact the 11 environmentalists objected to PCB's being spilled in 12 the environment because it's slow to biodegrade. I 13 agree with the environmentalists on that point. 14 Now, if anyone receiving PCB's 15 violates handling PCB's in the best possible manner 16 to avoid spilling this stuff in the environment, 17 which is the thing the Government is objecting to, 18 then, I think what you're saying here is that 19 Monsanto, on knowing and hearing about that this guy 20 ia spilling this stuff, they could refuse to sell 21 him more because he is violating what is sought to 22 prevent, spilling it into the environment. Now, 23 that's it. 24 Q. And was that the understanding that you 25 acquired of what was going on while you were an NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMON0019218 129 1 employee at Monsanto? 2 A, If sone -- yes. If sonebody is going to 3 aisuae it and this is known -- I -- I assume that 4 the wording here says they could have - 5 MR. JONBSi Don't assume anything. 6 A. Yeah. Well, I said what I -- I said what I 7 know. 8 Q. (By Mr. Lacey) Okay. During your 9 eaployaent with Monsanto, did you ever learn or hear 10 of any coapany to whoa you sold FCB's as dielectrics 11 that, in fact, did aisuse it? 12 MR. CRAWFORDi I would instruct you 13 to - 14 A. I don't know this - 15 MR. CRAWFORD: Okay. You -- you tell 16 hia what you know about it, and that's it, if you 17 know anything. You can tell hia that. 18 Go ahead. 19 A. At any time during ay employment I heard - 20 you lean about environmental concerns? 21 Q. (By Mr. Lacey) About people misusing PCB's 22 and, as you've indicated, letting them get into the 23 environment. 24 A. I heard not -- my hang up here is -- was 25 while I was at -- you say while I was an employee or NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC, HARTOLDMON0019219 130 1 was i t after. 2 I heard about this, r think, after I 3 retired -4 Q. Okay. 5 A. -- to answer your question. 6 Q. So, you don't believe you heard while you 7 were employed by anybody - 8 A. Not while I was employed. 9 Q. Okay. 10 A. And another part of ay answer to you is 11 that, during my later years at Monsanto, I spent a 12 great deal of ay time ex-USA; and other people were 13 handling and calling on these -- on this trade, the 14 electrical industry. He were still in the business, 15 and this was being handled by people other than 16 myself . 17 I was on my way to retirement at this 18 point in time. I was spending a great deal of my 19 time not even in this country. 20 And, so, you're asking me specific 21 things about while I was an employee. To the best 22 of my ability, I'm saying what I heard was really 23 after I retired. 24 Q. Okay. Who was calling on the U.S. 25 electrical industry with regard to the sale of NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMONO019220 131 1 Monsanto's PCB's for dielectric while you were 2 still at Monsanto? 3 A. While I was still at Monsanto, the sales - 4 the district salespeople would call on customers who 5 were buying PCB's. 6 Q. Did anybody in your group ever make calls 7 on customers or go to plants to assist them with any 8 problems ? 9 A. Well, in my group -- I'm going to say I 1 0 didn't have a group; but I think, to my knowledge, 11 is -- I didn't have a group. Nobody reported to me. 12 Q. No one reported to you? 13 A. Nobody reported to me. At this point in 14 time, I want to clarify. I was out here as a -- you 15 say, "marketing manager." I want to be more 16 specific. 1 7 Q. Well, what was your title? 18 A. The title was really, to answer you, a 19 "technical specialist." What I am saying to you is 20 thisi I was not in the line of the organization. I 21 was sort of a satellite out here and as much 22 international as I was -- if not more so than I was 23 local. 24 Others were doing this and handling 25 it. What -- years ago, long before the NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMONO019221 132 1 environmentalists ever got upset, I did handle. But 2 my contacts were years in the past. 3 That's how the ball bounces. I'm 4 s orry. 5 Q. So, you really just didn't have very much 6 to do with the U.S. electrical industry at all in 7 the 19 7 0 ' s? 8 A. No, other than attending the meetings at 9 ASTM and the international meetings -- you say the 10 1970's. I was in Japan in 1970. 1 1 Q. I'm talking about in the 1970's, the year 12 1970, '71, '72, '73, and '74, up to your . 13 retirement. 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. In those years, you had very little to do 16 with the U.S. electrical industry as related to 17 FCB's used as dielectric fluids; is that correct? 18 A. It's pretty much correct. Let's start it 19 with 1970. 20 Q. Let's do that. 21 A. I was in Japan in 1970's. 22 Q. What were you doing in Japan in the 23 Seventies? 24 A. Monsanto had built a plant in Japan. 25 Q. FOB plant? NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC.. HARTOLDMONO019222 133 1 A . A PCB plant. 2 And there, in Japan, the Japanese had 3 their own plant in operation, Kanagafuchi. The 4 product was called Kanaclor. 5 So, my assignment there was to try and 6 sell the output of this plant. It was not 7 successful, but that was my assignment. 8 Q. And how long were you in Japan to try to 9 sell the output of Monsanto's Japanese PCB plant? 1 0 A . Oh, this was a number of months. 1 1 Q. What did you do after you came back to the 12 States, and about when was it that you came back? 13 A . Well, I don't -- this was within the year 14 of 1970. It was in that framework. 15 Q Okay. Did you come back to the O.S. after 16 your Japanese assignment? 17 A . Yes . 18 Q And what did you do when you came back? 19 A. When I came back, I worked -- you're going 20 to think I never did anything. 21 Q. I'm sure you did something for Monsanto in 22 all this time. 23 A . When I came back, I again worked on the -24 the meetings and so on and so forth in the technical 25 organization areas. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMONO019223 13 4 I Q. The ASTM? 2 A. Primarily ASTM. 3 Q. Any other groups? 4 A. IEC, which is the International 5 Electrotechnical Commission, I was chairman of the 6 similar subcommittee. 7 Q. Of the what subcommittee? 8 A. International Electrotechnical Commission. 9 Q. And what subcommittee was it? Or was 10 there -11 A. The subcommittee on synthetic dielectrics. 12 Q. And what did you do there? 13 A. Well, as I already said, did very much the 14 same work as was done in the USA, only on an 15 international basis on whatever countries were 16 interested. 17 Q. So, you were working in foreign countries? 18 A. In foreign countries. 19 Q. Okay. 20 A. And I spent a good deal of time in foreign 21 countries -22 Q. Okay. 23 A. -- and was not in the details of what you 24 are looking at here, really. 25 Q. Well, I guess that's really what I'm trying NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMONO019224 135 1 to get at. 2 Monsanto has designated you as their 3 corporate representative -4 A . I ' a sorry. 5 Q. Yeah. 6 A . I can't help this . 7 Q. -- and I'a trying to find out if we've got 8 the right person or if we've got the wrong person. 9 MR. CRAWFORD! Well -- well, David, 10 he's -- he is designated -- let's clear that up - 1 1 as a person with knowledge in this area. And that's 12 what we've designated his under 30(b)(6), which I 13 think we can do. He is a person with knowledge. 14 MR. LACEY: Well, I's not sure there's 15 a whole lot of knowledge, Walter, if he's out of the 16 country during the 1970's. 17 MR. CRAWFORDi Well, he has knowledge 18 during the Fifties and Sixties, which you've gone 19 into -- 20 MR. LACEY: Uh-huh. 21 MR. CRAWFORD: -- and the Forties. 22 And that's - 23 MR. LACEY: Uh-huh. 24 MR. CRAWFORD: -- that's, you know. 25 MR. LACEY: Yeah. Well, we'll -- we NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC.. HARTOLDMONO019225 136 1 can talk about that later. 2 Q. (By Mr. Lacey) Let me go ahead and find 3 out what else you did in the 1970's, and I'm 4 particularly interested in what you were doing in 5 the United States in the 1970's since - 6 A. Well, I'll tell you -- 7 Q. -- our lawsuit involves the United States. 8 A. Well, do you want to know -- you don't want 9 to know the foreign countries I was spending ay tiae 10 ini India, Brazil, Argentina, Australia, what have 11 you, Sweden -12 Q. Yeah. 13 A. She's writing all this down. 14 Q. Yeah . 15 A. -- Prance, Belgium. 16 Q. Well, we'll have it all down, 17 I'a trying to find out what you were 18 doing in the good old USA - 19 A. I know you -20 Q. --in the 1970 ' s . 21 A. I know you are. And, again, my correct 22 description -- description would be as a 23 technology -- technologist; and I was concerned with 24 the technology. 25 As I told you, I was the one that was NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMONO019226 137 1 asked to take Aroclor 1016 and introduce it to G.E. 2 and other leaders in the electrical industry; to 3 describe our findings with this, our analysis of 4 this; and to say, "Now, we have done the best we can 5 to remove the higher chlorinated things, and I'm 6 here to tell you this is what we achieved without 7 significantly changing the basic material," which is 8 Aroclor 106 -- which is Aroclor 1242. "Now, it's up 9 to you to make a decision. fle're ready to produce 10 this" -- and Monsanto did produce this, which has no 11 bearing, had nothing at all to do with whether 12 soieone -- or whether Monsanto had the right to not 13 sell to somebody or not. 14 1016, in essence, on this part of it, 15 was really not significantly different. It wasn't 16 accepted by the EPA and the people in Washington on 17 this basis. 18 Q. What do you mean, "it wasn't accepted by 19 the SPA"? 20 A. It was -21 Q. Oh, "was . " 22 A. -- supposedly less -- it was supposedly 23 more biodegradable for the simple reason that the 24 more slow biodegradable components, to some degree, 25 had -- were removed. So, it had to be a step in the NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMONO019227 138 1 right direction. It was this. 2 But it did not answer the objections 3 to chlorinated biphenyl by the environmentalists. 4 It just was not accepted. 5 Q. There were other problems? 6 A. They objected to it as well as anything 7 else . 8 Q. Okay. 9 A. They objected to even this. So, It didn't 1 0 fly, one might say. 1 1 Q. Did -- and what was your thought about 12 their objections to PCB' s and -- did you think they 13 were legitimate objections or - 14 A. I agree with the BPA, their premise that 15 PCB's biodegrade relatively very slowly. I agree 16 with that. I have no quarrel with that. 17 Q. Uh-huh. 18 A. And on that basis, I agree with what the 19 environmentalists said and did by way of banning it 20 when they got ahold of a material that was more 21 biodegradable. 22 Q. okay. 23 A. I agree with that entirely. 24 Q. Okay. Let me ask you thisi Did you ever 25 hear from anybody that the environmentalists had NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMONO019228 139 1 concerns about the health effects of being exposed 2 to FCB's? 3 A. Ho. 4 Q. Never heard that? 5 A . No . 6 Q. Okay . 7 A. Well, I think you're going to have to - 8 that's a simple way to put this thing. We talked 9 about the environmentalists objecting because it was 10 slow to biodegrade. They objected, therefore, on 11 basis and -- and that this might cause some 12 difficulty with a certain sea eagle and that sort of 13 thing. 14 There were those things. Of course, I 15 knew about that. That's what the professors finally 16 came about saying, that they attributed PCB's to 17 upseting the metabolism of certain species of bird 18 and caused them to lay thin egg shells and the eggs 19 broke. 20 Well, I'm going to go on talking about 21 this since the question is raised. Hell, as a kid, 22 working in the grocery store, several times a year, 23 I think particularly in the spring, we sold a 24 product called -- oyster shells that were chopped 25 up. And this was fed to chickens for this very NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMONO019229 140 1 reason, to give them more calcium to increase their 2 egg shell. 3 Mow, this was long before PCB's ever 4 arrived. I had the unpleasant thing of having to 5 dig out of a gunny sack these darn broken-up oyster 6 shells, which were sharp as a razor. I'd have 7 bloody fingers. So, I remember that very well. 8 Q. My question to you was whether or not you 9 ever heard of concerns by environmentalists about 10 the possible adverse health consequences of people 1 1 being exposed to PCB'S ? 12 A . For people. 13 Q. Yes . 14 A . I ' m sorry. I didn't get "people." 15 Q. Yeah . Maybe I didn't make that clear. 16 A . No. You said health -17 Q Let me make that clear. 18 A . You implied this without making it clear. 19 Q. I ' a sorry. 20 A. And I told you about what I know about 21 their objections, their original objections , to this 22 in the - - as to exposure to birds and fish and so on 23 and so forth. 24 Q. Yeah . 25 A. Now, on the health part of this thing to NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMONO019230 14 1 1 people, again, you're talking to the wrong person. 2 This is in the area -- even if our representatives 3 don't have this exactly right, this is not up to 4 ifl. It's up to our medical people. 5 Q. My question ist Did you ever hear about 6 those concerns in the 1970's, adverse health effects 7 on people? 8 A. Anyone who read the newspaper, let's say, 9 read -- and I think it was this period of tiae -- if 10 wrong, correct me -- PCB's, that they are hasardous 11 and deleterious and poisonous and cause cancer. 12 That was written in the newspaper. 13 I don't agree with this. 14 Q. I see. Okay. And what's the basis for 15 that disagreement? lour personal work or just your 16 belief? 17 A. It's both, and knowledge. 18 Q. Okay. Explain to me - 19 A. Ho one came to me with these words, nobody. 20 Q. Bxplain to me the knowledge that causes you 21 to bmlleve that PCB's cannot have any adverse 22 consequences on people's health? 23 A. Thatthey cannot? 24 Q. Yes, that they cannot. 25 A. This is in an area I'm not qualified to NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMONO019231 142 1 answer one way or another. 2 Q. Well, that'g what I'* trying to find out. 3 A. They haven't had an adverse effect on me, 4 that I know of. 5 Q. Okay. Is that - 6 A. Nobody caie to ae -7 Q. Okay. 8 A. Nobody has ever cone to ne that, "Paul 9 Benignus, I have a health problem here." If they 10 had, I would have referred then to our medical 11 department; and they should have gone to their own 12 medical departaent. 13 Q. Okay. So, that's not an area in which you 14 feel qualified to offer an opinion at all? 15 A. This is correct. 16 Q. Fine. But you don't believe personally, 17 fron your own belief, that they can cause adverse 18 health consequences -- correct? -- on humans? 19 A. I believe certain things myself, yes. 20 Q. I'm trying to find out what those are. 21 A. My own personal belief, "ay own personal 22 belief," is this -- and I've said it; I'll say it 23 again any time this question is asked. This is 24 based on ny own experience more than anything else. 25 Do not breathe the vapors and the NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMONO019232 14 3 1 fumes emitted from PCB'3, which come about 2 particularly at elevated temperatures. Do not 3 breathe those fumes and vapors. I believe that. I 4 wouldn't do this. Now, I would say that. I've said 5 that. I'll always say this. 6 Q. Anything else you'd say? 7 A. I would say do not have prolonged exposure 8 to the skin. I would say, if it is on the skin, 9 wash it off with soap and water. I would say that. 10 Q . Anything else? 1 1 A. This about covers anything I can think of. 12 Q. Okay. Now, having said all that, I want to 13 find out what your belief is about the possible 14 health consequences if one didn't follow what you 15 said you think they ought to. 16 A. On this, which is a logical thing for you 17 to ask, take this up with our medical director. 18 Q. Yeah. You don't have any opinion at all 19 about what health consequences could be? 20 A. I prefer that you ask these kind of 21 questions from a medical -- I'm not qualified to 22 answer this . 23 Q. My question is not what the health director 24 believes; it's what you believe. 25 A. What I believe? I told you what I NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMONO019233 144 1 believe. Do not breathe the fumes and the vapors. 2 That's what I say. 3 Q. Yeah. My question to you is what you 4 believe about the consequences of breathing those 5 vapors . 6 A. The consequences -- 7 Q. Yes. 8 A. -- of breathing -- 9 Q. Yes. 10 A. -- these vapors? * 11 Q. If you have an opinion. You aay know 12 nothing about the consequences, period, at all; you 13 have no idea what they are. And if that's your 14 opinion, that's fine. I just want to know what your 15 opinion about that is. 16 A. The opinion I have about this, I have heard 17 that exposure to fuses and vapors can have an 18 adverse effect on the organs -- now, I'* referring 19 to what's published in the literature -- 20 Q. Uh-huh. 21 A. -- the kidney and, I think, the liver. 22 Now if there's anything else, I don't 23 know. And, again, you should talk to the health 24 people. 25 Q. Okay. Now, let me go back to your 1970's, NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMONO019234 145 1 fro* 1970 through 1974, work for Monsanto in the 2 United States, if I understand it correctly, 3 involved going to electrical companies with Aroclor 4 1016 and telling them about the properties? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. And it involved serving as chairman of the 7 Subcommittee D-27 of the ASTM? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. Here there any other duties you had for 1 0 Monsanto Company in the United States from 1970 11 through your retirement? 12 A. Not assigned -- not specifically assigned 13 duties. As I told you, I was a satellite out here; 14 and I was not in the organization. 15 Q. Okay. 16 A. I was not assigned specific duties, no. 17 Q. Here there any other tasks that you 18 undertook for Monsanto in the United States from 19 1970 until your retirement, other than your service 20 as chairman of the subcommittee of the ASTM 21 Subcommittee D-27 and going to electrical 22 manufacturers with Aroclor 1016? 23 A. I'm trying to think of specific assignments 24 and things. I can't think of any. 25 Q. Okay. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMONO019235 146 1 A. Sad to tell you. 2 Q. Okay. Did you have any role at all in the 3 effort of Monsanto to meet with Government agencies 4 and scientific agencies and others to express 5 Monsanto's views on PCB's? 6 A . No . No, I did not. 7 Q. Who was responsible for that at Monsanto? 8 A. Again, in this tine period that you're 9 talking about - 10 THE WITNESS: Is it all right to 1 1 nention names? 12 MR. CRAWFORD: Well, if he asks you, 13 if you know. 14 THE WITNESSi Yeah. 15 A. I ' m sorry. I -- 16 Q. (By Mr. Lacey) You're under oath, and you 17 need to answer the questions truthfully. 18 A. Yeah. Truthfully? The way I -- I don't 19 say anything untruthfully. 20 Bill Pappageorge, do you know 21 Pappageorge? 22 I'n not supposed to ask a question. 23 q. I've never met the nan. 24 A. Do you know hin? 25 Q. I've never met him. No, I don't know hin. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMONO019236 147 1 I wouldn't recognize him if he walked into the room 2 today. 3 A. Nell, I understand this. 4 Q. I've heard the name. 5 A. You've heard the name? 6 Q. I've heard the name. 7 A. Nell -- 8 9 minute? THE WITNESSi Can you stop this for a 10 Q. (By Mr. Lacey) No. She needs to keep on 11 writing. 12 A. Well -- 13 MR. JONESi Just let him ask the 14 questions, and he will - 15 A. Yeah, ask the question. 16 Q. (By Mr. Lacey) Did you ever work with 17 Mr. Fappageorge on anything? 18 A. No, I didn't. 19 Q. Okay. 20 A. No, I didn't. 21 Q. When did you first meet with the lawyers 22 from Monsanto about this case? 23 A. This particular case? 24 Q. Uh-huh. 25 A. Oh, they -- they would know. That was NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMONO019237 148 1 confusing to me. 2 Thank you. Thank you. 3 Q. Let me see if we can clarify some of that 4 confusion. 5 THE WITNESS! Well, why don't you 6 answer this? 7 Q. (By Mr. Lacey) No. You're the witness. 8 These lawyers - 9 A. Hell, I'm so confused I might not know. 10 The first time I met Walter was when 11 he came to St. Louis to my house. 12 Q. When uas that? 13 A. Well, Sherry would know. She was there. 14 THE WITNESS: What day was this? That 15 was -- what day was this? 16 MR. CRAWFORD: Well -- 17 Q. (By Mr. Lacey) Was that this week or last 18 week or - 19 A. That was last -- last week. 20 Q. Last week? 21 A. Yeah. Very recent. 22 Q. Within the past week or so? 23 A. Oh, yes. You better believe, yes. 24 q. We've completed the Easter weekend here as 25 we're taking your deposition. I don't know. I NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMONO019238 149 1 guees you're retired. Maybe you've got a lot more 2 holidays than the rest of us; but were they there on 3 Friday, Good Friday? 4 A. I think they were. 5 Q. Is that the first time they met with you? 6 A. First time I met them, yes. 7 Q. Did you meet with any -- any people from 8 Monsanto, other than these lawyers, any other 9 lawyers, lawyers froa St. Louis froa Monsanto, prior 10 to meeting with these lawyers? 11 A. I didn't meet with thea. 12 Q. Did you talk to thea? 13 A. I talked to thea. 14 Q. Okay. When -- when did you - 15 A. On the telephone, I talked to thea. 16 Q. When did you talk to those lawyers? 17 MR. CRAWFORDi David, let me correct 18 one thing. It was Thursday when we went up there, 19 just so he's -20 THE WITNESSi All right. Thursday. 21 MR. CRAWFORDS And I talked to him 22 Thursday at his house. 23 MR. LACEYs On Thursday? 24 MR. CRAWFORDi Yes. 25 MR. LACEY: I see. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMONO019239 150 1 MR. CRAWFORDj That's just -- because 2 he's still confused on that. 3 MR . LACEY: I S ee. 4 Q. (By Mr. Lacey) About what tine did 5 Mr. Crawford cone by and meet you last Thursday at 6 your house? 7 A. This was in the aorning. 8 Q. Thursday morning? 9 A. (Witness nods head) 10 Q. And who was with Mr. Crawford? 11 A. Sherry. 12 Q. And how long did they spend with you 13 getting you ready, then, on Thursday? 14 A. They were with me until in the evening. 15 Q. Came in the morning and stayed all day? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. Busy day for you? 18 A. Went to lunch. We went to lunch, too. 19 Q. And were you feeling pretty much up to 20 doing that work? 21 A. May I ask a question? 22 I know what you're driving at. 23 Lawyers were calling me. "How do you feel, Mr. 24 Benignus ?" 25 Now, are you a doctor here or -- NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMONO019240 15 1 1 Q. No, I'm not a doctor. I'm just interested 2 in finding out. 3 A. I wasn't -- I wasn't feeling too good. 4 Q. But they came and stayed with you, anyway? 5 A. Well, I didn't get across myself; but they 6 came at a time where -- shortly after when I had 7 been in the hospital. 8 Q. Uh-huh. 9 A. And this is what you're driving at. 10 Right? 1 1 Q. Well, that's what I'm trying to find out 12 about. 13 A. I've just said, "right." 14 MR. CRAWFORD: Well, just -- just - 15 just try to answer his questions - 16 A. Yes. 17 MR. CRAWFORD: -- because it's getting 18 close. We need to shut down. 19 THE WITNESS: I know. 20 MR. CRAWFORD: It'S almost 5:00. 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. (By Mr. Lacey) Now, what lawyers from 23 Monsanto had talked with you on the telephone before 24 Mr. Crawford and these other lawyers came to visit 25 you? NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMONO019241 152 1 A. On the telephone? Torn Bistline. 2 Q. What's his name? 3 A. Bistline, BISTLINE, Biatline. 4 Q. Okay. And he's a lawyer for Monsanto? 5 A. He's a lawyer for Monsanto in St.Louis. 6 Q. Okay. When did he first talk with you? 7 A. Relative to this deposition? 8 Q. Yes. 9 A. Or subpoena? 10 Q. Yes. 11 A. I don't know when he first talked to me. 12 He indicated that I may be hearing about some law 13 firm relative to -- is it Scott, et al? 14 Q. Yes . 15 A. -- about wanting to know my time of 16 employment. 17 MR. JONESt Object to that as 18 attorney-client privilege. 19 Don't go into your conversations that 20 you may have had. The only thing that he can go 21 into is who you've talked to. 22 THE WITNESSi Tom Bistline. I 23 answered it. 24 MR. CRAWPORDi Well, Mr. - 25 Mr. Benignus, just try to answer the question that NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMONO019242 153 1 he's asked. He's asked you - 2 A. Toe Bistline Is the answer. 3 MR. CRANFORD) -- who -- who you 4 talked to. 5 Q. (By Mr. Lacey) Yeah. And I want to know 6 what Mr. Bistline told you. 7 A. About the possible - 8 MR. CRANFORD) Ne have the objection 9 that' s been made. 10 Q. (By Mr. Lacey) Nell, did you hire 1 1 Mr. Bistline to represent you? 12 A. I didn't. 13 Q. Does Mr. -- is Mr. Bistline your lawyer? 14 A. No. 15 Q. Okay. Nell, let ne ask you) Nhat did 16 Mr. Bistline tell you, then? 17 A. That -- 18 MR. CRANFORD) He's a 30(b)(6). 19 You -- are you - 20 MR. LACEY) You can designate whoever 21 you want, but that doesn't establish an 22 attorney-client relationship. 23 He's just said on the record that 24 Mr. Bistline doesn't represent hie and he didn't 25 hire Mr. Bistline. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMONO019243 15 4 1 THE WITNESS: That'a right. 2 MR. CRAWFORD Well, Mr. Bistline 3 tried to schedule the depositions and -- pursuant to 4 our agreement, where we were supposed to try to set 5 up some tines. That's what you wanted us to do. 6 MR. LACEY i That's right. And we did 7 that. 8 MR. CRAWFORD! All right. 9 MR. LACBYi And I think we scheduled a 10 deposition at a tine that was, according to 11 Mr. Shoebothaa, convenient. And as I told John, we 1 2 would notice and subpoena to protect ourselves to - 13 MR. CRAWFORD! Right. 14 MR. LACEY i -- make sure witnesses 15 could appear -16 MR. CRAWFORD: Right. 17 MR. LACEYi -- and then we have the 18 scenario that follows that. I'a not sure we need to 19 go into that on the record here now. 20 Q. (By Mr. Lacey) My real question isi What 21 did Mr. Bistline tell you? 22 A. He told me -- and I don't know the exact 23 time -- that I could expect at some time in the 24 future to be depositioned on this case. 25 Q. Anything else? NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMON0019244 155 1 A. There was a letter to that effect. 2 Q. Pro* Mr. Bistline? 3 A. That's all it said. That's all it said. 4 Q. Did you have any other discussions with 5 Mr. Bistline at any time? 6 A. Yes, subsequent to this. 7 Q. Tell me about those discussions. 8 A. As I recall this thing, I was told that 9 there would be a deposition at the -- at the 10 Marriott across from the airport. 1 1 Q. In St. Louis? 12 A. No. I'll back -- this is wrong. Excuse 13 me. This is wrong. I'll correct this. 14 The first thing I was told was that I 15 was supposed to go to Houston at some point in time. 16 Q By Mr. Bistline? 17 A . Yes. 18 Q. Okay. And what were you subsequently told 19 by Mr. Bistline? 20 A. Later it developed I was supposed to go to 21 the Marriott in St. Louis, as I recall. 22 Q. Okay. And then what else were you told by 23 Mr. Bistline? 24 A. I think that was it. 25 Q. That's all the conversations you can recall NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMONO019245 156 1 with him? 2 A. I think this was it. 3 Q. Okay. Let me identify some documents here 4 for the record so that we can give you some 5 homework. 6 It's been a long time since you've had 7 homework, isn't it? 8 A. You're right. 9 Q. Well, what -- we're going to try to do 10 this, I hope, in order to speed us along tomorrow. 1 1 And let's see if I can -- where is Folder 3? 12 What we want to try to do here, I want 13 to ask you some questions tomorrow about some 14 documents that Monsanto has produced - 15 A. Okay. 16 Q. -- and, again, which I have the 1 7 understanding -- and maybe it's wrong -- that you're 18 going to be able to help us identify. 19 And I'm just going to have the 20 documents identified, for the purpose of the record, 21 with the beginning number of the sequence we're 22 using. 23 A. Okay. 24 Q. The first one is document 33 and 25 following -- and let me just hand that to you so you NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMONO019246 157 1 can- get an idea what -- you don't even need to 2 read -- look through it right now, but just -3 A. Yeah . 4 Q. - - look and you can see the title page. 5 A . Okay . 6 Q. You've seen documents like that before? 7 A . Yeah . 8 Q. Okay . Document 55 -9 MR . LACEYi Hould you write this down? 10 A . I see them in colors. not in black and 11 white. 12 Q. (By Mr. Lacey) Well, I didn't get colors. 13 I just got the the black and whites. 14 A . Plastic -- oh, wait a minute. Is this 15 different? 16 This is same thing. 1 7 Q. Hell, I don't know. They've given me all 18 these documents with all these numbers on them. 19 That's what I want you to - 20 A. That's what confused me. It's the same 21 thing. 22 Q. That's what I want you to kind of help us 23 determine tonight. 24 A. Now, this is "The Aeroclors." This doesn't 25 have the word "Aeroclors" -- "The." NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES. INC. HARTOLDMONO019247 158 1 Q* That's what I'm going to try to sort out. 2 Document 8 4. 3 A. "The Aroclors." Yeah. 4 Q. And I've got Document 132. 5 They should have copies of all these 6 documents that you can look at tonight and try to 7 help us sort them out. 8 A. Yeah. This one I can -- yeah, I can -- I 9 know this one. 10 Q. Okay. And Document 158. 1 1 A. It's the same thing, isn't it? 12 Q. Oh, well, I don't know. That's what we're 13 going to try to sort out, is when these were dated. 14 A. That's what you already told me. 15 Q. 180 . 16 Unfortunately, these documents - 17 A. Yeah, I know this one. 18 Q. -- these documents don't, in many cases, 19 don't have publication dates on them; and you'll 20 find different little numbers at the end and that 21 sort of stuff. And, so, that's what I'm going to be 22 asking you to look at and see if you can help us. 23 A. A lot of these, I can't handle numbers any 24 better than -- well, this one, I can't hardly read. 25 Q. 212. That's Document 212; Document 241. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMONO019248 159 1 A. Yes. Yeah. 2 Q. Document 269 . 3 A. Yeah. 4 Q. Document 325. 5 A. Yeah. 6 Q. Document 342. 7 A. Yeah. 8 Q. Document 357. 9 A. Yeah. 10 Q. Document 407. 11 A. Yeah. 12 Q. Document 422. 13 A. 0od, I can't make this out. Oh, there's 14 two of them in here. 15 Q. I'm sorry. What's the number of that? 16 A. "Pydraul Fact Finder." 17 Is this the number, 432? 18 Q. 432. And those - 19 MR. CRAWFORD: Wait. 432 instead of 20 22? 21 THE WITNESS: This is 422, then 432. 22 MR. LACEY: And then 432. 23 MR. CRAWFORD: Okay. 24 THE WITNESS: Then 432. 25 MR. LACEY: Okay. All these NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMONO019249 160 1 documents, for the record, are in folder No. 3. 2 A. So*e of these, I've never seen. 3 Q. (By Mr. Lacey) Okay. That's fine. Now, 4 let le go to the next folder. 5 A. Should we put those back in the same 6 folder? 7 Q. We'll do that; and if you'll just put them 8 in another pile, we'll get them back there, in that 9 folder, at a later date. 1 0 A. Oh, I thought you wanted us to take those. 11 Q. No. You'll have copies. I want to leave 12 those here. You should have copies of those back at 13 Monsanto ' s - 1 4 A. Oh. 15 Q. -- lawyers' offices. 16 A. Oh, I see. 17 Q. They've provided us with these copies. 18 A. All right. 19 Q. Okay. The next group is Document 1489. 20 MS. OLBSEN! Sxcuse me. What was 21 that, again? 22 MR. LACEY: 1489. 23 THE WITNESS: 1489. 24 Q. (By Mr. Lacey) 1494. 25 A. All right. NELL NIC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMONO019250 16 1 1 Q. 1504 . 2 Q. 1508, 1519 . 3 A. That' s the same thing. 4 Q. 1529 . 5 A . Yeah, I know this. 6 Q. 1537 . 7 A . Yeah. 8 Q. 1559 . 9 Q. 1581, 1606, 1635? 10 THB VIDEOGRAPHER i He need to take a 1 1 short pause. 12 He're about to go off the record. The 13 time is 5i04 p . m . 14 (Discussion off the Record) 15 Q. (By Mr. Lacey) 1664, 1693, 1722, 1753, 16 1794 , 1825, 1857, 1889. 1 7 We've got quite a few of them here 18 they've given us here. A lot of them look similar. 19 A. Yeah. You've sort of grouped the same 20 things, but you've got different numbers. 21 Q. Yeah, that will be very helpful if you can 22 group them together. 23 A. Yeah, well, you have done this. 24 Q. 1919 -- no. I'm just giving them to you in 25 the order the numbers came. Maybe tomorrow we NELL NIC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMONO019251 162 1 can- -- 2 A. Well, somebody grouped these. 3 Q. Good. 4 THE REPORTER i What was the last 5 number? 6 MR. CRAWFORD: 1919. 7 THE WITNESS) 1889. And this is 1919. 8 Q. (By Mr. Lacey) Okay. Go to another Colder 9 here. 10 And 2050 -- no. Let's see. All 1 1 right. That -- that's got a date, and this has got 12 a date. Let's go to the next one that doesn't. 13 2253, 2265. There's a date on this 14 one; so, that's okay. 15 2299, 2332, 2347, 2378, 2411, 2426, 16 2438 -- 17 A. Wait a minute. I just want to see -- okay. 18 Q. -- 2438, 2450, 2478, 2506 - 19 A. Oh-huh. 20 Q. -- and 2522. _ 21 A. Do you want these in a separate -- 22 Q. We'll separate them when we get through 23 here. I think we can identify the numbers. 24 Then 17270, 17286, 17302, 17318, 25 17338, 17343, 17351, 17355, 17359, 17381. Let's NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMONO019252 163 1 see-. This has got a date on it there. 2 17405, 17408, 17411, 17414, 17417 3 17421 , 17429, 17440, 17452, 17468, 17492, 1 7507 4 17519, 17552, 17566, 17589, 17599, 17623, 17627 5 17635. 6 I've got another group here when 7 you're ready. 8 A. Boy, most of these, I've never seen. 9 Q. Nell, If you can, take a look and help us 10 figure out how to date then. If you can't, you 1 1 can't. Whatever good you can do will be helpful to 12 us . 13 17651 . 14 You night put those in another stack. 15 A. Oh, yeah, this finished this stack. 16 Q. Right. 17 A. Now, we're going to that. 18 Q. 17680, 17694, 17702 -- this has got a 19 date -- 17747 -- that's got a date -- 17777, 20 17781 -- that's got a date -- 17871, 17951, 17957, 21 17965, 18030, 18132, 18193, 18235. 22 58451 -- and this is yet another 23 stack. 24 A. Oh, that's another stack. 25 Why are these in different stacks? NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMONO019253 164 1 Q. Well, they're in different folders, as they 2 were presented to us by Monsanto. 3 A. Oh, 1 see. 4 Q. That's how they had then organized. 5 18451 -- 6 A. An I on television here, yet? 7 Q. Yeah, you're still there. 8 18 - 9 A. Well, why -- what's the purpose of 10 having -11 Q. Because we videotaped the entire 12 deposition - 13 A. Oh, I see. 14 Q. -- and we're still in the deposition. 15 A. All right. 16 Q. 18455, 18521, 18575, 18597, 18601, 18626, 17 18731, 18777, 18791, 18845, 18906, 18952, 19003, 18 19057, 19065, 19074. 19 He nay not have gotten every technical 20 bulletin; but we've got, I think, the bulk of them 21 that were produced to us. And let me tell you what 22 I would like for you to do so we can move 23 expeditiously tomorrow. 24 One, is to look at each one of these 25 and -- after these lawyers pull then for you -- and NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMONO019254 165 1 see-if you can help us figure out the date or the 2 approximate date they were written. I note in many 3 cases that there will be references to certain 4 studies, certain literature, and the like. There 5 are sometimes code numbers on them that would seem 6 to indicate a date. And we would appreciate your 7 help in doing that. 8 Second, I'll be interested in talking 9 with you about any of these documents that you had a 10 hand in writing, reviewing, approving, or 1 1 distributing to other people. 12 MR. LACEY: And I guess. Halter, we 13 can stop right here. You indicated you wanted to 14 stop and start up tomorrow morning - 15 MR. CRAWFORD: Yeah. 16 MR. LACEY: -- at what? 17 MR. CRAWFORDi Let's make it 9:30. 18 MR. LACEY: 9:30? 19 MR. CRAWFORD: Yeah. 20 MR. LACEY: Okay. 21 THE VIDEOGRAPHER : We will now recess 22 the deposition. The time is 5:16 p.m. 23 ***** 24 25 NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMONO019255 166 1 SIGNATURE OP WITNESS 2 3 4 I, PAUL GEORGE BENIGNUS, solemnly 5 swear or affirm, under the pains and penalties of 6 perjury, that the foregoing 165 pages contain a true 7 and correct transcript of the testimony given by me 8 at the time and place stated, with the corrections, 9 if any, and the reasons therefor noted on a separate 10 sheet of paper and attached hereto; and that I am 1 1 signing this before a Notary Public. 12 13 PAUL GEORGE BENIGNUS 14 15 16 THE STATE OF J 17 SUBSCRIBED AND SHORN TO BBFORE ME, the 18 undersigned authority, by the witness, PAUL GEORGE 19 BENIGNUS, on this the _______ day of , 20 1987. 21 22 Notary Public in and for 23 The State of 24 My commission expiresi 25 NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMONO019256 167 1 THE STATE OP TEXASi 2 I, Cheryll K. LeFevers, a Certified 3 Shorthand Reporter, hereby certify that the 4 foregoing testimony was given before me after the 5 Witness had been first duly sworn. 6 I further certify that I prepared this 7 transcript and that the foregoing pages constitute a 8 complete and correct copy of the transcript of the 9 proceedings. 10 I further certify that I am neither 1 1 attorney for, related to, nor employed by any of the 12 parties to the lawsuit in which this deposition was 13 taken; further, I am neither related to nor employed 14 by any attorney of record in this cause, nor do I 1 5 have a financial interest in the matter. 16 17 GIVEN UNDER MY HAND AND SEAL OF OFFICE 18 in Houston, Texas, on this the 27th day of April, .19 1987 20 21 & ^___ Cher LeFe , CSR, CP, CM 22 23 Certification Number: 1690 Date of Expiration: December 31, 1988 24 Address: 2900 Smith Street, Suite 104 Houston, Texas 77006 25 Phone: 713/523-3767 NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMONO019257 Page Line LAWYER'S NOTES NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMONO019258