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COPY TO R M BOX HUMBER segment ho. NOT E S tH^lAES DATE - MT-PWHD-015851 MT-PWHD-015852 HENRY GEORGE MURAD May 21, 1979 />lm 7)of 9822 Bridle Ridge Court, Vienna, Va. USAF General Engineer About 3 months with USAF 14 years with USNavy - May I965 Master Degree in Inorganic Chemistry, U.Maryland, 1957 B.S. Chemistry, Utica College of Syracuse U. 6 months service in Army First employment after receiving Master's Degree - USAF at Griffiss AFB, Rome, N.Y. General chemist - till Sept. I963 Taught various chemistry courses at Utica College, till I965 Basically analytical chemistry at Griffiss Analyzed samples of air, water, soil, for trace concentrations of different elements and/or compounds Intelligence gathering purposes Chemistry Unit working for Intelligence and Reconnaisance At Utica College, taught general chemistry, nurse's chemisty, organic and research chemistry, special research projects Learned minimal amounts about asbestos while at Griffiss or while teaching Knew asbestos did not burn and was very inert to chemical reactions and was used as high-temp, insulation Did not learn anything about health hazards during that period Had to know the basics about hazards presented by the materials he was handling - did not research into this subject during period up to I963 I965 went to work for the Navy at Marine Engineering Lab., at Annapolis, Md. Part of Bureau of Ships Did R&D in area of ship's machinery ine. heavy machinery for propulsion and ship silencing Don't know if it was nuclear or not He was involved in fluid processing lab. and work in submarine atmospheres and boiler water treatment Was there ! years Concerned with keeping submarine atmosphere as habitable as possible Had no concern with asbestos in the air during the time he was there Went to Naval Ship Engineering Center, then in Washington, now in Arlington, Va. Working on water treatment systems and fire-fighting chemicals Work was more that of an administrative type of engineer Was there about 3 years - till Sept. I969 Very little concern with asbestos during that time Was concerned with asbestos - a little re. fire-fighting Also re. high-temp, insulation He was in charge of dealing with specs, for all kinds of insulating material, thermal insulation primarily - some sound and a very little electrical insulation Was called Chemical and Toxicology unit - Nov. I966- Sept. I969 Wrote specs, and standards for various chemicals used on board ship Fire extinguishing agents, water treatment chemicals and techniques Insulation was not involved during this 3 year period 7 8 9 10 10 10-11 11 11-12 13 Inl 14 15 16 I7-I8 18 19 19 MT-PWHD-015853 H. G. Murad During 1966-69 his only connection with asbestos was re. water filters in treatment systems for propulsion plants 20 Cooling etc., not drinking water Sept. I969 went to Coatings Unit of NSEC 20-1 1969-Oct. 1972 21 - Concerned with specs, and standards Was Materials Engineer Boss of Coatings was Supervisory Engineer, Ed Morganstearn Reported to Morganstearn 22 6-7 people in coatings unit ; Involved with insulation materials and ablative materials - 1 peels off on exposure to great heat, thereby absorbing heat 22 Predecessor was Tom Pugielissi - had been there 3 years , Bob Seith prior to Pugielissi - don't know for how long 23 : Duties were to maintain optimum insulation materials for use on board Naval Ships Insulation for piping, hull, machinery - not electrical Thermal and acoustical 24 In I969 standards existed No previous familiarity with insulation standards 24-5 Came to this position because a successor for Pugielissi was needed 26 I969 Was already a program under way to reduce or eliminate asbestos in insulation - this started approx, fall of I968 Knew about this program before he went into coatings Cherowbrier had asked him if he had worked with asbestos in any of the work he was doing at the time 27 Cherowbrier worked in chemistry and toxicology unit Was trying to determine where asbestos was used on board ship and to what extent Said there was high level interest in determining this There was an article in the NYTimes or Washington Post about the alleged dangers of asbestos 28 This was the first he heard about alleged dangers of asbestos He had not seen the article referred to 1 Told Cherowbrier they used a small amount of asbestos filters in ; some cooling treatments 28 Cherowbrier was a chemical engineer or materials engineer in chemicals and toxicology unit 28-9 " Cherowbrier asked him about asbestos officially one time and mentioned it unofficially from time to time in conversation 29 Part of his job - had other duties in fall I968 This was his only involvment with asbestos until moving to coatings unit in Sept. I969 30 1968-9 his only contact with the asbestos program was in talking with Cherowbrier or people from Philadelphia who came down, who were working in it Phila. div. of NSEC dealt primarily with ship machinery - propulsion plants 31 Sept. I969, read about insulation, read some specs., referred to reference books, talked to people in and out of the Navy Talked with piping section, boiler section, refrigeration, people who actually applied insulation No other section dealt with hull insulation Piping, boiler, and refer, sections were, all in code 6140 All part of NSEC 32 Concerned with standards and specs, and dealt with operation of equipment in piping, boiler and refer. MT-PWHD-015854 H. G. Murad When he took his position in Sept. I969 there had "been some work done re. asbestos elimination 32 Gherowbrier had looked into the places and extent of asbestos use And continuing to do this 33 Learned later this was with the overall goal of trying to reduce the amount of asbestos in those places where it must continue Was primarily Gherowbrier's job for Naval ships 33 Witness was to work with Cherowbrier in this overall job Was a lot more to overall insulation than just asbestos 34 Inc. flame-retardancy, fire hazards connected with organic insulation - polyurethane, polystyrene, etc., and paints and certain fabric Asbestos was just part of what he was looking at Had no formal order of priorities Informal priorities change depending on pressures from higher up Priority of asbestos varied over the 3 years 35 Other things such as fire hazards, problems with attaching hull insulation, etc., varied the pressure re. priorities 35-6 He was told about the asbestos program as soon as he took over the job - always considered important but didn't work on it constantly 36 Hull insulation - surface ships, fiberglass - submarines, foam rubber Had problems re. refrigeration compartments; for protection of jet blast deflectors from high temps, and high velocity of Fl4s; developed coating for deflectors to prevent them from melting 37 Many little problems with antisweat materials, accoustical problems, etc. Got involved in high temps, in the fire rooms 38 All these things included revision or new specs, as appropriate He had a little of both developing new materials to solve problems and also making decisions re. standards and specs, and paperwork Specific case - asked Puget Sound Naval Shipyard to survey the ' field for a product which would satisfy requirements Requirements were set based on info, from carrier type desk and 39 NSEC and worked with NAVAIR and Naval Air Engineering Center Then tested materials selected, small and full scale Worked with different people to do testing This is one way to solve problems Another way - get information from industry and work with them to come up with materials 4o Work with ASTM, etc. Much has to do with what funds are available Funds were available to work on the deflectors referred to He worked as coordinator on some jobs 41 Generally he would just recommend a solution to his bosses - 41-2 Decisions might be made at NSEC or higher 42 Were trying to reduce the amount of asbestos used on Navy ships for insulation Were told there was allegation that it was a hazard He was not involved in investigating such allegations 43 Accepted it as a problem and tried to solve it Ran through all ships Don't know if problem applied to aircraft as well or structure, buildings, etc. Objective was the same for submarines and surface ships Specs, identify particular materials; standards give procedures on how to use materials 44 MT-PWHD-015855 H. G. Murad. Used mainly performance specs, for materials Did not necessarily call for use of asbestos Other than asbestos, did not know of any materials which would 45 do the job Asbestos is used for high-temp, insulation 46 ' Not talking about hull insulation Tried to learn of materials with lesser amounts of asbestos, or with no asbestos, which would still do the job 47 By fall 1972, when he left the coatings div., they had not found all nonasbestos containing materials which would do the job for high-temp, insulation Had been able to reduce the amount of asbestos in some batting and pipe insulation and boiler insulation materials 47 Had to maintain performance requirements Did not reduce the performance requirements in the specs. Towards the end of this period, had a task going in California 48 on a ship to see if a non-asbestos high temp insulation could do the job of asbestos material 48 This was the only task he is aware of done by the Navy in this period Don't know if there were any questioning in the Navy as to whether asbestos elimination was really necessary 49 He was party to writing an instruction citing procedures to be used when working with asbestos Co-authors were from NAVSHIPS, code 07, shipyard resources; 50 Ed Cherowbrier; people from safety area of NAVSEC. Shipyard resources - manpower and equipment $1 Man from 07 was Jerry Crawford - Cherowbrier was working with him 5l~2 Safety people from NAVSEC - Larry Farina 52 Instruction was based on a survey done by NSEC, Phila., in connection with the work Cherowbrier was doing with Phila. Phila. had gone to the Naval shipyards to determine extent of asbestos use and how to keep asbestos fibers to a minimum in the environment Don't know if this was just Naval shipyards Don't know what the distribution of the instruction was to be 53 Phila. survey had begun prior to his transfer to coatings Was begun back in fall of I968 Instruction was completed while he was with coatings, and was issued Sometime later he visited a few shipyards to see how they were 54 adhering to that instruction 55 Boston, Portsmouth, Norfolk, Charleston No other involvement with how asbestos was used in the field Witness and Cherowbrier were doing the work in the asbestos program Supervisors were also directly involved because they were supervisors Witness immediate boss - Ed. Morganstearn; Cherowbrier's boss Frank Lovell 56 Don't know reason for Cherowbrier's leading involvement in asbestos Cherowbrier had chemistry background He was not as much involved in actual writing of specs, as witness was Got involved with contractors, mfrs., suppliers to gather info. No clear cut division of things that witness or Cherobrier would do Cherowbrier is retired from the Navy - sometime after witness left coatings 56-7 57 Fall 1972, went to work for Naval Ships Systems Command - materials engineer - changed to general engineer 57-8 MT-PWHD-015856 H. G. Murad Assignment changed - design services Co-ordinated design and engineering work associated with fleet modernization program This was not a promotion - wanted to work closer to home Was replaced in some aspects of the job, by Winer Winer took over the asbestos work Cherowbrier continued to work with Winer Winer also took over some hull insulation and fiberglass After leaving coatings - no further association with asbestos and its problems Birnbaum was second-level supervision Morgenstearn and Lovell's boss - Section Head He was one of the Navy reps, on American Society for Testing and Materials, while in coatings div. Group who work in industry and govt, on materials used in construction and shipbuilding Set mutually agreed upon standards and testing procedures Large number of sections He was in insulation section This was just while he was in coatings div. - as a Navy rep. Was involved with ASTM while he was in water treatment - they have a water treatment section Was involved with NIMA - used to clear specs, with them to ensure that performance requirements set forth, were attainable Mr. Pugielissi, his predecessor, still with Navy, in air conditioning unit, NSEC Last saw Bob Seith about Aug. 1972 - was still with Navy then, NSEC Brought no documents in response to notice for deposition - has nothing These pertained to coatings section - was last there in 1972 Was no stated program to remove asbestos Was an objective - elimination would be the ultimate Did not get involved in trying to eliminate asbestos from electrical components He was limited to thermal insulation Asbestos gaskets would not come into that category - had no duties re. finding substitute for asbestos gaskets His activity re. asbestos was from 1969-1972 Instruction re. working practices with asbestos - was a party to this Was involved in updating - revised several times before it was signed out Instruction was to keept asbestos fibers in the atmosphere to a minimum and reduce chances of workers in immediate area from breathing in asbestos Wet down area before ripout Wear respirators No smoking during ripout Insulation to be cut out with special shears - not ripped out by hand Air to be monitored for asbestos content - 5-50 microns Special clothes - special way of laundering Coveralls, gloves 58 59 60 61 62 63 64 65 66 66 67 67 MT-PWHD-015857 H. G. Murad Identifies copy of this Instruction NAVSHIPINST 5100*26, Feb. 9, 1971 Went to many of the Navy operating divisions - instruction Study which resulted in this instruction started in late I968 Involved work by several individuals Study was done by Gherowbrier Coordinator Phila. people at NSEC, Phila. did the work Cherowbrier went with them to some of the Navy shipyards Witness was not directly involved with the survey work Don't recall if there was a file for this study work Don't recall which shipyards were visited - Phila. was one Don't know if contract yards were visited Instruction was drafted and revised several times Don't know if the Navy had any instructions re. work practices with asbestos in Navy Shipyards, prior to Feb. 1971 He did not look at any prior instructions re. work practices He visited shipyards, Boston, Portsmouth, Norfolk and Charleston, after Feb. 1971 Visit to Norfolk was late 1971 or early 1972 (instructed by counsel not to answer questions re. observations made at the shipyards) 67-8 68 70 71-2 72 73 74 74 75-82 I965 asbestos was not touched upondduring his work with the Lab. in Annapolis Asbestos was not monitored re. breathing air for sub. crews 82 Don't know if asbestos was monitored elsewhere in I965 Asbestos filte s were used in water treatment of boiler water, to filter any particulate matter 83 Believe the filters were in a housing - don't know if they could be changed without a shipyard visit or not 84 Coating unit was 6-7 employees in 1969 - no secretary There was a secretary for the section, coatings and chemistry & toxicology units 84 Witness was individual from coatings involved in the asbestos elimination effort, with Cherowbrier from Chemistry & Toxicology Cannot give % of time involved with asbestos on ships 1969-72 spent about 10-15% of his time concerned with asbestos on ships - guess 85 85-6 Don't know Cherowbrier's % 86 Cherowbrier first approached him about asbestos in fall of I968 when witness was atShip Engineering Center 87 Said some admirals were interested - did not identify them Article in the N.Y. Times or Washington Post was shortly before Cherowbrier approached him . Witness does not recall when he actually saw the article Initial conversation with Cherowbrier was short,15 minutes; Got impression at that the study re. asbestos on ships had already begun 88 Did not discuss any of the work done at that time Goal was to determine where and to what extent asbestos was used on ships He was told there was an article in the, jpaper by Selikoff which alleged that asbestos was a health hazard 89 When he went to coatings unit, read or referred to some reference books to do with thermal insulation - don't recall titles 90 MT-PWHD-015858 H. G. Murad Books had to do with thermal insulation properties not with health Was involved in all high-temp, insulation, not just on pipes Boilers required asbestos insulation Foam rubber on sub. hulls did not contain asbestos Glass insulation in the hull did not contain asbestos Cherowbrier never worked at Phila. - retired from Washington, NSEC Witness had visited shipyard prior to Instruction 5100.26 being issued Not to do with asbestos Often wrote trip reports about such visits - don't know if these axe still available - he does not have any Never maintained a private file at home re. work with coatings Is not presently a member of any professional association Was a member of the American Chemical Society, around 1963-65 May have been a member of Society of Chemical Engineers for a year Probably when at NAVSEC - not sure Don't know of anything called a deficiency report re. asbestos control in shipbuilding ' 90 91 91 92 92 92-3 93 94 Reviews some documents - 3 documents 96-99 Was his job to try to maintain mil. specs, up to date 99 Performance spec, primarily addresses the requirements to be met by the material Could also have a spec, that dealt primarily with characteristics and composition of the material 99-100 Often a cross between the two - performance and part of composition 100 In a spec, which called for characterisation of the material there was not substitution allowed for Documents - MIL I-I509IC Insulation Felt, Thermal, Asbestos Fiber This is a cross between performance and exact composition Gives some indication of composition and also lists properties that the material should perform Says that it covers asbestos fiber felt Would have to be either plain or water repellant as stated Would have to have asbestos in it 101 Marked Exhibit 2-16 pages 102 Second document - "Cloth, Thread & Tape - Asbestos" SS-C-00466D (Navy Ships,) June 19, 1962 - Exhibit 3 102-3 Third document - follow-on of second document SS-C-466E Interim Amendment - 1 (Navy Ships), 17 June 1965, Ex. 4 102-3 These are mil. or fed. specs. Both are compound specs. - characteristics and performance Asbestos in all of these - no substitute allowed for 104 If a supplier was complying with these specs, he would have to meet them - calls for product containing asbestos He reviewed MIL standards 769 describing procedures of how insulation products should be used 105 Did not draft the whole thing Standard would have to be invoked by the ship spec. Standard 769 would tell the reader what set of specs, could be used for specific purposes 105-6 Would give instructions on how to apply insulation aboard a sub. 106 Believes it also instructed how to remove asbestos insulation aboard ship Was not the sole source of instructions MT-PWHD-015859 H. G. Murad He reviewed instruction 5100*26 during its preparation 106-7 He was one of several reviewers 107 Also reviewed Mil Standard 769> and others Centered around kind of material to use and how to use it 108 A1 Munkrees and Joseph Amore were also involved in reviewing Lovell and Morganstearn might look at them from time to time Also Cherowhrier Would review them if there was something significant to change 109 Munkrees was in piping section - almost all piping on ships had to he insulated Piping section was code 6153' F Don't know when it started up 110 Don't know if they did tests on insulation for ship pipes or if they participated in studies Munkrees is now retired Amore was still with the Navy several months ago 111 Thinks he was in refrigeration - code 6153 C Chief of a section or a unit Don't know his background Generally anyone with any involvement in an instruction, in use of it, would see it 112 BUMED had input to instructions - worked with Cdr. Sam Barboo Don't know Barboo's background Talked with Barboo about the asbestos situation - first time was probably late I969 or early 1970 113 Re. use of asbestos on ships Formal meetings - kept no notes 113-4 Cdr Barboo's boss was also involved in reviewing standards Don't recall name - he was a Captain 114 A change would be initiated by one interested person - this would have to be reviewed by people in other areas Would go from one desk to another Was no formal getting together of people towork on a piece of paper 115 Re. asbestos insulation on Navy ships, his dept, would be involved, also safety office and boiler people and piping people Change would have to be sent through specifications, 6120 116 Specifications would send it to others involved in govt. and out to industry to make sure that industry could supply the material described 116 Industry people would sometimes initiate a change - such suggestions were considered Depending on the spec, other govt, people would be contacted - in case of a fed. spec., might be used for land construction as well as for shipbuilding . 117 Worked with GSA, Army, Air Force, etc. No other govt. dept, would be involved in writing specs, for asbestos insulation aboard Naval ships Spec. Review Board would have ultimate approval - no particular office - made up of people from NSEC now called Naval Sea Systems Command - Crystal City 118 Each major directorate in NSSC has a representative on the review board, 04, 06, 07 About 4-5 people from NAVSEA, 2-3 from NAVSEC Witness has made presentations to the review board - don't remember the particular specs, involved 118-9 Might have dealt with asbestos 119 MT-PWHD-015860 H. G. Murad Combination of written and oral presentation Don't know if copies are maintained He kept copies of written presentation Written presentation consisted of the change he wanted and any comments by people who reviewed it Was a formal proceeding Secretary took notes Received copy of minutes of the meeting which may have covered 6-7 different specs., one of which was his Don't know where these minutes are kept There was no avenue of appeal from the Review Board Don't know of other documents dealing with asbestos insulation other than mil. or fed. specs. 119 120 120 121 122 Was not concerned with asbestos in the atmosphere during his work with submarine atmospheres, or with dust When he joined the coatings division he talked with a number of mfrs. and suppliers, to learn about insulation Talked with GSA sometimes and with people at shipyards Probably at all the Naval shipyards over a period of time Usually spoke with people in shop 56 - insulation dept. Occasionally spoke with insulation people at private yards Spoke with Newport News Don't recall speaking with anyone at Electric Boat, Groton Don 't know of any written document outlining asbestos elimination program Don't know if individual yards had their own elimination program Priorities would be indicated by his immediate chain of command Morganstearn, Birnbaum, Alfers - military head, Cpt. Ryan and Gdr. Smoot Everything was oral - no written memo. Cherowbrier told him about the alleged allegations that asbestos was harmful Believe there was a task in Hunter's Point, Gal., to determine if nonasbestos products could do the job Using a non-asbestos material to see if it could do the job in high temp insulation purposes - on piping and propulsion plant Don't know where Jerry Crawford is now working Mr. Farina was with NAVSEG, Washington area Still at 6105 - don't know title Don't know of anyone involved in instruction re. asbestos who visited Electric Boat, Groton Observed a ripout for a short period - don't recall which shipyard Probably 1970-71 . While he was with coatings Has not met with anyone other than attorneys for this depo. Has not heard of Shipbuilders Council of America 122 122-3 123 123-4124125 125 126 127 128 129 Don't know en chemistry and toxicology unit was first set up First became aware of it in fall, I969 One of his first meetings after he joined coatings, was with J-M, Porter, Cherowbrier and Birnbaum To talk about procedures to be used during ripout and talk about trying to reduce asbestos content in high-temp, insulation 1969-72 most specs, dealt with were performance type Some were mixture of performance and characteristic 129 130 130-1 131 MT-PWHD-015861 H. G. Murad Reviewed SS~C-466 during that time - looking for ways to reduce % of asbestos in insulation Considered eliminating asbestos from it, but at that time there was not other material which would be satisfactory Man called Morty something, in Phila., was involved in the study there Also Cherowbrier NSEC, Phila. did the study - under Sam Greenberg's area Don't know if there was an actual report Knew of the study through Cherowbrier and had an idea of the results Ship spec, is description of the characteristics of a specific ship that is being acquired by the Navy 131 132 132 133 In working with SS-C-466 were trying to use the lower of the two types of asbestos described therein 133"^ UG is 80% asbestos, double A is 90%, Triple A-M is 95%, AAA is 10% 13^ Became invo lved in this in fall of 1969 - worked with Cherowbrier and Morganstearn and Birnbaum and Alfers Relied to a large extent on industry to find a substitute product Mfrs. reps, would visit and apprise them of latest materials 13^5 135 Some info, would come from ASTM and NIMA NIMA is a group of mfrs. who provide products for the common good of the industry - insulation industry - all kinds, not just asbestos 135-6 He never attended any NIMA meetings I36 Received letters sometimes, giving NIMA's position on certain specs, sent to them for review Don't know if received NIMA comments on SS-C-466 Had used glass cloth as a substitute for asbestos cloth for certain projects - in-house One project - had to remove a foam rubber insulation (antisweat) from cold water lines to test integrity of the pipes 137 Devised technique of building a sleeve for the pipe to be tested from time to time, and covered the rubber insulation with glass cloth instead of asbestos cloth This worked, to his knowledge I38 Started this in May 1972 - was working well when he left The cloth was more as a fire retardant than as insulation Not aware of tests of low asbestos cloth or nonasbestos cloth on hot pipes or high-temp applications in connection with 466 program 139 One of the reasons they did not substitute cloth under 466 spec, was because they couldnot find a material which would hold up to the requirements Wanted good insulation and something that would hold up under stress of abrasion on board ship When they started out, they were told that only asbestos would do this ' 140 Various mfrs. told them this, and suppliers of insulation They were initiating some tests in the summer of 1972, just before he left I969-72 his dept, or the govt, performed no tests of asbestos-free 140 or low asbestos cloth - relied on industry Reports were mainly oral - nothing written that he would consider a report Received from various mfrs. and suppliers' reps. 140-1 Inc. H. K. Porter, who said that a certain amount of asbestos 141 was needed to provide the kind of material which would withstand shipboard use 141-2 Don't recall amy conversations with Porter rep. re. asbestos and health 1 b.r> MT-PWHD-015862 H. G. Murad Also talked with people from Pittsburgh Corning Local rep., now dead, and man from home office Told that P-C were sponsoring tests at U. California to determine health hazards Was told that tests basically coincided with Selikoff's work Local rep. would visit every couple of months - discussed any problems of supply or anything dealing with specs. Re. any products, inc. asbestos Don't recall any specific discussions with local rep. re. health Mr. Sinclair, dec'd - was previously at Anapolis, Navy Man from home office came to Washington area Recalls meeting where this person requested time for the U.Ca. tests to be completed before revising any of the specs. Changes re. reduction or elimination of asbestos Estimated tests would be completed in a few months - took a little longer than estimated but it was completed Don't recall that any recommendations re. substitution were made as a result of that study The meeting was with Cherowbrier, Capt. Ryan, people at BUMED Sam Barboo and his boss- not other mfrs. reps. Mfrs' reps, came into the office now and then - no schedule Sept. I968 attended a meeting - requested to do so by Birnbaum - dealing with reduction of asbestos in insulation and procedures during ripout People from Porter and J-M were there Were told that they had to continue to use asbestos in high-temp. insulation - no known material would stand shipboard use Mfrs. reps, told them this Document - list on page 1 of MIL Standard 769B Has provided information in connection with drafting or revision of some of the specs, listed SS-C-466 - conversations with industry re. substitutes Trying to use lowest possible asbestos content Relied on industry as to what could be done Talked with people in piping area - Munkrees, code 6153NSEC Most info, came from the industry Munkees aid witness tried to bring it up to date Mil. Standard 769B was superseded by 769c and 769D Each time trying to reduce the amount of asbestos by citing those types within the specs, with lower asbestos content Pg. 9 of the standard - have to refer back to SS-C-466 to see what the cloths referred to include He may have worked with Munkrees on changes in that standard Probably discussed it with mfrs. Received oral pitches from mfrs. Mfrs.' main thrust was that asbestos was still needed and that glass cloth would break too often Mil standard and mil. sepc was tied together Standard applies to thermal insulating materials and asbestos materials is one thermal insulating material class Navy shipyard would use that standard A contract yard would use that standard if it was invoked in the ship's specs, in the contract No specific recollection of discussing that standard with any asbestos mfr. Worked on MIL 0-788, brattice cloth - just cotton cloth Worked on MIL 1-2781 - at least reviewed it - don't remember Insulation, pipe, thermal - thinks it was fiberglass 142 143 144 145 145-6 146 147 148-9 149 ` 149-50 150 151 151-2 152 I53 153-4 154-5 155 I55 I56 157 I57 I58 I59 MT-PWHD-015863 H. G. Murad Talked with industry on all specs. Relied on industry for info., through ASTM, NIMA and "by 159 visits from industry reps. Did not keep records of visits "by industry reps. 160 Business cards might be in the files Was involved in many of the specs, listed Insulation blanket, thermal, fibrous, mineral, MIL 1-2818 Was involved in almost all of those listed, to some degree 161 Don't recall MIL P-15328, pre-treatment Nor MIL B-19564, bedding Don't recall Fed. spec. T-T-931 Twine, Cotton, Mattress Very little in QQ-S-775 steelsheets Not involved in QQrW-3431 Wire; QQ-W-390 Wire; SS-C-192 Cement; TT-P-26 Paint; TT-P-320 Pigment; UU-T-106, Tape. 162 Was involved in all the others 162 Often consulted with industry during drafting and revision After it went through the cycle within the Navy, within coordination and review cycle, would be sent to NIMA for review by industry I63 NIMA would list reasons for disagreement, or would agree Depending on the comments, would either drop it or incorporate it I63 Thinks that NIMA suggested revisions to mil. or fed. specs. - cannot give example When he was there he kept copies of letters from NIMA 164 Usually under the spec. - in folder for that particular spec.. After NIMA input, spec, would be sent to code 6120 who were usually involved in interface with NIMA 6120 would put it together for presentation to the Spec. Review Board Not failiar with Asbestos Textile Institute Would discuss change with the review board, and finally it would be adopted and printed and issued After enough amendments came out then the spec, was reprinted I65 I65 Don't recall any instance where a spec, was drafted or revised for a product which did not exist at the time Or where a spec, required that a new product be made to meet it All specs, concerned existing products 165-6 Don't recall any specific conversations re. health and asbestos with industry or mfrs. 166 Just the one study sponsored by P-C at U.California to check on what Selikoff published Usually talked to marketing people Don't think that health was ever a consideration in drafting a spec. I67 Wanted to reduce asbestos - in connection with Cherowbrier's work Don't recall receiving any written communication from any . mfr. re. asbestos and health Recalls a letter setting forth some procedures for working with asbestos, and asbestos ripout - some of which was incorporated into the NAVSHIP instruction 5100.26 168 Believe it was a letter from H. K. Porter to the Navy 168 Don't recall when he saw this Ex. 5 - Mil. Standard, thermal insulation requirements for machinery and piping, MIL Standard 769B(Ships), 3 Jan. 1966 I69 Referred to this standard earlier in testimony ' I69-7O Had conversations with reps, of J-M and P-C I70 Also talked with Porter, Eagle-Picher, Claremont; Raybestos-M came in once; Owens-C; MT-PWHD-015864 H. G. Murad Don't recall any conversations with Cummings 171 Possibly with Amatex Don't recall Eastern Refractories or Defense Apparel or SEPCO, or Shook & Fletcher, or Reef Industries Has heard na me Unarco today Recalls Unarco name - were a supplier - don't recall specific conversations No specific conversations with Westinghouse re. asbestos - may have 171-2 . 172 talked with them re. water treatment Don't recall receiving any written material from Cherowbrier re. asbestos substitution program 173 Remember the newspaper article being brought to his attention Don't recall NAVEXOS P-52 174 August 1946, Vol. Ill, No. 8 Exhibit 6 Never saw this document before today 176 Ex. 7 NAVEXPOS P52, Vol. IV, No. 1, Jan. 1947 Never saw this before 176-7 Ex. 8, Safety Manual, Part 2, shops 56, 25, 27, Norfolk Naval Shipyard 178 Never saw it before Ex. 9, Safety Handbook for pipe fitters - NAVORDINST 5100*21 Jan 7, 1958 Never saw this before Ex. 10, NAVSO P-2455 Safety Precautions for Shore Activities April 1965i June 1, I967 changed Never saw this before Task at California was at Hunters Point and involved molded pipe 179 180 insulation No mfr. had any hand in the testing Material was procuredfrom the industry 180 180-1 From Eagle-Picher 181 Used gas turbine Left before test was complete - don't know if there was a report Did not observe any of the test Don't know if anyone from his dept, saw any of the tests Worked with Munkrees of piping section on 7691 revisions C and D Talked with him re. use of insulation for their piping systems Piping section was involved in use and application of asbestos 182 insulation on high-temp, pipes on board ship Were not involved in actual installation I83 Wrote instructions and served as info, gathering and dispensing service Info, sent to various shipyards If a ship had a problem they came to the ships logistics managers or to appropriate Naval Ship Engineering Center engineer involved Don't know if this section had responsibility for private yards with govt, contracts Don't know who is in charge of that department now 184 When he worked at NAVSEC the phone book had a brief description of what a dept, or office did - dept, could consist of several divisions, branches, units 184 He had a formal job description in the coatings unit Don't know where that is I85 Recalls - to work with insulation materials, try to provide best insulating materials for both thermal and acoustical insulation materials for use on board ships I85 Job descriptions did not go into details re. drafting of specs. When he was in water treatment, provided Naval Nuclear Engineering with info, developed and maintained on water treatment MT-PWHD-015865 H. G. Murad Naval Nuclear provided him with their water treatment manual Had a little contact with Nuclear re. insulation Received a letter from Nuclear re. status of insulation materials - responded to this Don't recall date - probably late in 1970 Don't recall that health was mentioned Was concerned with performance of the material Gave them status of what was being done, inc. specs. Thinks he said that progress was about as expected Towards reducing asbestos content in high-temp insulation Nuclear never provided any input towards this goal. // 185 186 ' 187 187-8 188 188 ` ; i i : MT-PWHD-015866 HENRY GEORGE MURAD Vol. II May 22, 1979 Piping section wrote up standard 769 and cited various specs. of materials to be used for lagging pipe Pipe lagging was done at the Navy shipyards for overhaul and repair He saw various installation procedures of all kinds of insulation on board ship, during various visits to shipyards Both on surface and submarine vessels Sometime after I969 Saw mechanics installing insulation on bulkheads, hulls, piping, boilers Saw preformed pipe insulation being installed - take out of box, set it on the pipe, secure with wire or tape - sometimes put lagging cloth on it with glue There are pretreated cloth - already treated with adhesive - wet it Don't recall if he saw anyone wearing respirator He was not wearing respirator when he saw this Sometimes work area was partitioned off Don't know if other trades were present working while insulation was applied . Many of these observations were before OSHA regulations Visited Charleston in Feb. 1972 - didn't-see much - got sick Don't recall ventilation equipment on board ships Observed installation of boiler insulation sometime after I969 Saw that lagging was on the boilers - was guided through by someone from shop 56 Saw high-temp, insulation being used, containing asbestos Cloth and batting on outside - asbestos felt Saw it after it was installed Has shown how wire were twisted to secure it Don't recall any other type of insulation he saw applied - asbestos Visited the ships primarily for his own education Shipyard visits were usually re. insulation - took time to visit ships while he was there Naval Ship Technical Manual would contain instructions for installation of asbestos insulation Issued to all ships and Navy shipyards and is accessible to private shipyards Available to anyone with legitimate need Don't know exact procedure for distribution Understood anyone could go and buy it Don't recall seeing any publications from BUMED re. asbestos Don't know origins of mil. specs. Has worked on developing new specs. One in particular on fire-fighting foam test kit Simply described the test kit definitively enough so it - could be bought from industry Purpose of a mil. spec, is to describe a material which the govt. may want to procure Involves classification Never heard of SSP Military standard is a document that describes where certain spec, materials may be used in operational situation Some include instructions on use or application Don't know origins of mil. standards- Whereever possible specified insulation containing the lower or lowest asbestos content that could be used Reduced the asbestos content in batting and boiler insulation 197 I98 199 200 201-2 202 203 204 20k-5 205 206 207 208 208 209 210 MT-PWHD-015867 H. G. Murad This took some time Spec, change was not necessary because there were already 210 various types of materials identified in the spec. Revised mil. standard to provide for use of products containing less asbestos Would be oneof the G or D revisions 210-11 211 Dept, code 6105 safety, may or may not be involved in a spec. revision Worked with any Navy code or outside people who had an interest in the spec. 211-12 212 Initiator of the change would make the initial determination as to who would be interested Checked with safety personnel on a number of spec, revisions Don't know if it was oral or written Many were from fire hazard standpoint Gherowbrier dealt with Larry Farina in 6105 on asbestos 213 213 Ben Leota was the top person in 6105 Leota and Farina are both still in 6105 Also dealt with Jim Hughes on fire hazards, and couple of other people on various material problems with safety requirements Code 07 was concerned with shipyard resources and participated 214 in drafting instruction marked as Ex. 1 Resources is manpower and equipment, inc. men installing insulation Navy shipyards only at that time - during his tenure 215 07 did not have responsibility for Supervisors of Shipbuilding 1969-72 Don't know of any connection between 07 and SUPSHIPS at that time Today 07 has responsibility for Supervisor of Shipbuilding 215 This was in 1974 When NAVSHIPS integrated with NAV0RD to become NAVSEA 215-6 Original SUPSHIPS appears to have been included on the distribution list for Ex. 1 Instruction Don't know if mfrs. had input to Gherowbrier's study started I968 Barnhart was exec, secretary of NIMA - signed letters re. NIMA 216 218 position on specs, or other insulation matters Don't recall specifics Mfrs. of asbestos products generally took the line that there was not any better choice at the time Mfrs. of non-asbestos insulation took the line that their high-temp, products were just as good 218-9 219 220 Don't recall any instance where a mfr. of asbestos products brought him a nonasbestos substitute 221 Talked with Heard of Owens-Corning re. asbestos free products Heard may have mentioned that cal. sil. and fiberglass could do the same job as asbestos Do not specifically recall Heard or anyone from his office suggest thechange to asbestos free product 222 Discussed asbestos free products with Johns-Manville, Bert Tower 222 Probably spoke in general terms - don't recall a specific substitute which was available 222-3 People from Raybesto-Manhattan came by once or twice 223 Talked with H. K. Porter - don't recall if they had any idea of a substitute 224 Brought in lower asbestos content materials or materials which resulted in lower concentration of' fibers Tests they showed were not very valid 224 Tests were by Porter or contracted by them He felt the tests were superficial 22^ I MT-PWHD-015868 H. G. Murad Eagle Picher people came in now and then Had a material that was high-temp, insulation which was cited in a fed. spec. - claimed it could do the job He had reservations about it - seemed too friable and would chip too easily, resulting in particles in the air Finally able to test it, and used the product on the surface test ship previously mentioned Don't think the material had any asbestos in it .Existing fed. spec, already described that material - HH ? Spec, is not included in the list, Ex. 1 Don't know if Mil Standard 769 was revised to inc. that spec. Talked with man from Claremont re. asbestos free He said glass cloth could withstand rigors of shipboard use Rewettable could be used in same way as asbestos rewettable Sold to Portsmouth Naval Shipyard Claremontglass cloth used in task involving removal and rapid replacement of insulation for cold water piping Think some shipyards were using that cloth at that time Don't know if anything was done to specs, re. this cloth - passed along the info, to Cherowbrier and Winer Test was still in process when he left People at Portsmouth were writing up a procedure for use Don't recall specific conversation re. substitution with UNARCO or with Westinghouse, or Amatex Robert Roy was the man from Claremont Met him in connection with the glasscloth No other discussions Never visited any facilities of asbestos mfrs. Admiral Rickover is head of nuclear reactor directorate, code 08 Had dealings with that dept. No records of such dealings Dept, plays a role in drafting mil. specs, and standards Don't recall names of those he dealt with Dealt with some of them re. water treatment Received one letter from Rickover asking about progress in the asbestos situation Responded - said they were essentially on schedule . and were doing what they had said they would do Don't recall any instruction from 08 to embark on asbestos substitution program Qualified Products List is a list of mfrs. with products qualified by presenting as described in a portion of the spec, to serve useful purpose to the govt. To get on QPL, mfr. must submit samples of products described by a spec., to a testing facility agreeable to govt., products must pass the tests written into the spec. Worked with 6124 in making up the list Tests were sometimes performed by mfrs. themselves, sometimes govt, did tests Purpose of QPL was to have available a list of mfrs. that could supply materials needed by govt, or Navy on short notice To expedite the procurement process Understood that insulation products on the QPL were used in other aspects of fed. govt, and also outside of govt, or military Various mfrs. reps, told him this Received catalogs and sales brochures from mfrs. Would receive info, that certain mfrs. products met particular mil. specs. 225 225 225-6 226-7 228 229 230 231 232 232 232-3 233 234 234 234 235 235-6 236 236-7 237-8 MT-PWHD-015869 H. G. Murad Don't recall if that info, would be on a list or in the brochures Usually a separate document Often looked like it was pulled from a bigger set Had information correlating mfrs. products with specs. - don't know how complete it was Mfrs. and suppliers would give them this info.... General insulation information - would put it in the folders ' based on material type Last saw such folders 6j years ago - don't know where they are now Has been to shipyards at Puget Sound, Maryland, Long Beach Several times to Puget Sound-Bremerton First time was on jet blast defelctor coating problem in 1972 or fall 1971 Went several times on that job - may have gone in spring 1971 At Puget Sound sometimes stopped in to observe dept. 56 insulation dept. At least once Don't recall if he went on ships Don't recall much about that department - thinks they had a pretty good shop - well run - cannot recall specifics Believes he visited the actual shop Went to Maryland shipyard about 2 years ago - nothing to do with insulation - did not observe any insulation activities First went to Long Beach yard in Dec. 1972, after finished working with insulation coatings - did not look at any of their insulation work 238 238 239 239 240 240 * 241 242 242-3 243 244 I! Also visited Phila. shipyard many times NSEG Phila. was there - visited many times for water treatment Naval Air Engineering was there - visited 2-3 times re. jet blast deflector Various quick tests were going on there Visisted Phila. many times for the design div. since he left insulation area Never visited Pearl Harbor yard Don't know if he observed workers using asbestos products while on any visits to Phila. or to other Navy facilities No specific recollection Don't know if he met Roger Beckett at Puget Sound Asbesto reduction program was not specially funded Never saw a specific program Were orally asked to try to reduce asbestos in high-temp. insulation and mission funded to work on specs. Fell within the general purview . Don't know if a written task was given to Phila. re. the asbestos rpogram Was a job description for each assignment he had with the USN None of them mentioned asbestos reduction Did not receive written reports from any USN agencies re. this task Cherowbrier may have received such reports Normally there is a report when a field activity is asked to do a job He did not receive any such report - possible that he saw one Yesterday Mr. Levy - attorney - mentioned a letter from Phila. Shipyard which triggered his memory that there may have been one or two such reports 245 246 246-7 247 248 248-9 249 250 MT-PWHD-015870 H. G. Murad Has not talked with anyone else except Levy and Mowinski 250-1 Did not receive any reports in connection with the task assigned to him Or review any reports that others had, except possibly 251 . Gherowbrier 252 He would sometimes write trip reports Wrote letter in response to 08's letter addressing status Did not write any other reports Prepared no recommendations other than changes to specs., standards, the instruction and theNavalShips Tech.Manual 252-3 CNO is Chief of Naval Operations- HQ, of the Navy 253 Navy Material Command reports to CNO Material Command has several systems commands reporting to them Biggest was Naval Ship Systems Command Also Naval Air Systems Command, Naval Ordnance Systems Command, Naval Electronic Systems Command, also Naval Supply Systems Command 253 He and Naval Ship Engineering Center would report to NSSC Divisions of NAVSEC reported to HQ NAVSEC Phila. div. was one of those reporting to NAVSEC The OPNAV instruction referred to previously was a NAVSHIP instruction 254 07D instruction signed out by Dolan who was 07 at that time Witness' input to Ex. 1 instruction would have gone up the command chain to be incorporated by HQ 254 Received oral direction from his immediate superior re. asbestos task Had no contact with Naval Air Systems re. asbestos task 255 Don't know if Cherowbrier did Had no contact with Naval Ordnance 255 May have been a little interface with Naval Supply Systems To determine how much asbestos was available and try to get them to reduce procurement of high asbestos content material Naval Supply procures materialdireetly for use by shipyards 256 Mechanicsburg, Pa. supply depot would be under their supervision Also responsible for inventorying and stockpiling material No contact with Naval Electronics Command or with Naval Environmental Health Center He had asked the Annapolis lab. to review asbestos specs. Cannot think of name of person he worked with 257 Task was reduced to a brief written description No tests per se - job was to review specs. He did not receive written advices of this review - don't know if any were prepared - was towards the end of his tenure Had something started in Aug. 1972 258 Specs, would not be changed until the Navy was assured that the change would still satisfy Navy needs USN did not retain any independent labs, or consultants in connection with this task Don't know if Navy worked with other military service organizations He had no such contact and is not aware that Cherowbrier had any 258-9 Had no direct contact with OSHA - don't know about Cherowbrier 259 Did not attend any symposiums or seminars by any U.S. agency re. the task ,, Attended ASTM meeting in Oct. 1971 - working group At Hershey, Pa. " 260 Re. setting of standards - broadly speaking MT-PWHD-015871 H. G. Murad Meeting at Hershey - discussed ways to improve testing of insulation materials Informally discussed ways to reduce amount of asbestos or eliminate it Holtgren is now associatedwith 04F Spoke by phone - knew him from before I969 Holtgren was in 6120 of NAVSEG - first met him there ,Later Holtgren was working with asbestos at NAVSHIPS * Spring 1972 Did not consult with Holtgren while he was in NAVSEG, 6120 Holtgren's first involvement with asbestos was with NAVSHIPS Captain Rosenwinkle was Barboo's boss - never met him Spoke on telephone Captain Lawton was Barboo's boss after Rosenwinkle No specific recollection of talking with Rosenwinkle re. task No specific recollection ofconversations with Barboo Don't know if he met industrial hygienist Paul Snyder SUPSHIPS supervises the construction of ships to be acquired by the Navy at private shipyards Navy directives to private shipyards would be issued through SUPSHIPS . On occasion he worked with SUPSHIPS and communicated with SUPSHIPS Personnel working at shipyards inc. private yards Interested users of specs, often included mechanical and other codes, boiler code, piping code Specs, were not normally distributed to shipyards for comment Sometimes they might be, depending on nature of the spec. Don't know if specs, were sent out to trade organizations representing shipyards Anyone who uses a spec, has opportunity to comment on it by letter or by using a form in back of the spec. May have received comments from shipyards Ex. 1 was distributed to all Naval shipyards - designated by FKLl (?) INA would be inactive ship facilities FB30 is Naval ship repair facilities FB34 is a fleet activity, accessible A recipient of the instruction might reword it and issue their own field activity instruction Purpose of the instruction was for info, to be disseminated throughout the Navy Page 8 Copy to, BUMED, Coast Guard, Naval Facilities Engineering Command, Naval Supply Sustems Command, Naval Safety Center, Navy Material Command, Chief of Naval Operations Naval Ship Engineering Center, 6101, 6140, 6105E, 6I3I, 6153 Naval Ships Systems Command 07D, Naval Ships Specialist Y2 NAVSEC 6101 would be a code designation - this is the section he worked for - materials development and applications office 6040 NAVSEC - ship's machinery div. 6105E, Safety 6I3I Habitability 6153 Piping 07D is the code in 07 that Crawford worked in 07 had control of shipyard resources 100 NAVSHIPS - not a code, means they were sent 100 copies Nolan signed the Ex. 1 - his office issued it Nolan was at least an Admiral and was deputy commander in charge of shipyard modernization and management 260 261 1 262 262 263 263-4 264 26^4-5 265 266 267 268 268-9 269 270 270 270 MT-PWHD-015872 H. G. Murad Author is designated in first page - JG, Jerry Crawford L. Breidinger is the secretary who typed it Don't know if any revisions were prepared for this instruction NAVSEG 6124 maintains list of qualified products Navy Dept, had responsibility for incorporating mil. standards and specs, into shipbuilding contracts with private yards Contracting office in NAVSEA now - used to be NAYSHIPS `Would be 02 people in charge of writing contracts Many Navy offices get involved inwriting contracts re. certain specs, or standards Purpose of incorpoating mil. standards and specs, into contracts was to ensure that shipbuilder would meet requirements of the USN Government furnished equipment is that provided by the govt, to a contractor in connection with a contract Did not know that the govt, supplied asbestos containing pads to private shipyards No knowledge of this Never visisted a European shipyard, nor did Gherowbrier Visited Holy Loch - in Europe but is an America facility Spoke with people at British Ministry of Defense but did not visit any shipyards May have seen documents by Brit. Min. of Defense - no specific recollection Don't know of any other task force, other than those already mentioned, concerned with use of asbestos by USN 271 272 273 273" 4 274 2?4 27^"5 275 2 75 Ex. 11, NSEC, Phila. to Owens-rCorning May 5i 19&9 and May 11, 1969 - 3 pages Ex. 12, NSEC, Phila. to Electric Boat Div., 30 April I969 - 2 pages Ex. 11 and 12 are the two documents he saw briefly yesterday Has no specific recollection of seeing these letters before 2?6 277 278 279 California task re. asbestos free high temp, insulation - was in summer 1972 Dealt with one ship Was not complete when he left - understand the insulation was found notsuitable for shipboard purposes A1 Winer probably told him this Broke up too easily Water temp, was 568 degrees for a 1200 lb. boiler That is boiling point at that pressure Fire side of the boiler goes up to about 900-1100 degrees Don't know if there was a previous coatings rep. to ASTM Don't know if anyone replaced him at ASTM . First went to coatings, borrowed reference books from NAVSEC library in Hyattsville, Md. - now in Arlington Trip reports might now be in insulation area Never visited Electric Boat installation 6147 Boiler section - Ted Lund was a section chief, Allan Lee was head of 6147 div. Ver little discussion with them re. asbestos task Did not review any documents prior to deposition Did not talk to anyone other than govt, attorneys While he was in Annapolis dealing with submarine atmosphere - just dealing with gaseous content Sometimes pressure would be applied by higher up for addressing questions on asbestos 281 282 283 283 283-4 284 285 285 286 286 MT-PWHD-015873 H. G. Murad Chemistry and toxicology purposes - Chemical cleaning - all methods of using chemicals for cleaning on hoard ship - water treatment and fire fighting Chemical, hoilogical and toxicology interests were reviewed and addressed - Cherowbrier and Lovel involved in that Understands that products which would meet specs. AA, AAA, AAA-M, are interchangeable with each other In revision to 769> specified out products meeting AA and AAA-M * to specify only products which met AAA with only 10% asbestos Don't know who initiated procedure of sending proposed changes to NIMA Visisted shipyards for purposes other than checking for instruction 5100*26 Was his impressions that Phila yard received written instructions re. asbestos reduction This is normal way to do business with field activity Has had indirect contact with OSHA - knew they were considering putting some conditions on use and working with asbestos Understands health hazards of asbestos to be that it caused lung disorders and lung cancer This is what was alleged in I969 . This understanding did not change 1969-72 Pittsburgh Corning were sponsoring testing at U.Cal. Don't recall who first advised him of this Don't remember name of P-C rep. he spoke with Tests were to verify work by Selikoff Early 1970 Learned of the results from BUMED Substantiated what Selikoff had reported Did not speak to anyone from P-C about the results Mr. Sinclair from P-C came by now and then Discussed any type problem involving any P-C products Is sure P-C were represented at ASTM and NIMA - thus participated in spec, changes P-C may have made indirect suggestions re. changes in specs, in course of conversation - don't recall Name James Nesser is familiar Practice of mfts. reps, calling on him continued during the time he was in coatings - don't remember all the names of people who came Such meetings brought him up to date on changes and developments in products This was how mfts. brought developments to attention of govt. Done orally and by leaving written literature . Mentioned Mr. Tower of J-M Name of Charles Enrst is familiar - don't know Windbladt - vaguely Remembers name Skelley from J-M Manahan, could be from J-M Gus Fowler sounds familiar, also Bob Simmons Had contact with several J-M people Tried to bring him up to date on technicaldevelopments at J-M re. asbestos Remembers talking with or receiving letter from Sunberry with ATI Don't recall specifics 287 287 288-9 289 290-1 291 291-2 29^ 295 296 297 297 297-8 298 299 300 301 302 MT-PWHD-015874 H. G. Murad Possible he had contact with Magnesia Silica Mfrs. Assn. 302 Marshal Allen is familiar name ASTM was a private group - industrial people, some govt, participation 303 Reps, from J-M attended ASTM spec, meetings 303 Also from E-P, and most of the people he did business with - names mentioned previously - 0-G, P-G, E-P, Porter, etc. 304 ASTM was to set standards and testing procedures ASTM standards were often incorporated into MIL specs. A*change in the ASTM standard specified in the Mil. spec, would have the effect of changing the mil. spec. Did not vote at the ASTM meeting he attended 305 Ex. 3 - para 2*2 is the para, which incorporates the ASTM spec. Ex. 2 - para 2.2 - ASTM spec. Common practice to incorporate ASTM standards by reference Was wrong yesterday when he indicated that mil. spec. 2?81 was fiberglass and excluded asbestos 308 1-2781 is a performance spec. - does not identify composition To comply with MIL 1-2781 mfr. has option to use fiberglass or asbestos or something else 309 Anything that met performance specs. Observed installation of pipe covering around late 1971 310 did not observe anything at Charleston ' Cannot remember at which yard he observed the pipe covering 3H Was not at Electric Boat Has had no personal contact with Electric Boat re. insulation No written contact with Electric Boat re. asbestos insulation Don't recall any contact wit Groton SUPSHIP re. asbestos insulation 312 Mfrs. reps, told him there was not better choice available than asbestos 312 During 1969-72 point of locked in asbestos was brought up Don't recall by whom 314 Recalls there was a hard asbestos product, mainly for use in * fire doors in bulkheads 314 Milled product, similar to slate - would not flake easily Like a millboard Same material could be made into preformed pipe insulation J-M had something like this . Was heavy and expensive Don't recall any totally encased asbestos product in the textile line - cloth could be covered with adhesive or paint He had info, that there was less airborne asbestos resulting from some of the products being developed, not that there would be no asbestos at all Ultimate goal of the Navy was to eliminate asbestos from ships 316 At the time he left this was still the goal His work was progressing towards that goal ' Accepted products with lesser asbestos content was because it was not possible to obtain asbestos free materials 316 Based on info, given to him, this goal was based on health dangers of using asbestos insulation 31? No reason to question this Don't recall any meeting with people from BUMED or PHS where it was explained why asbestos should be eliminated 31? There is nothing mandatory about application for QPL listing 318 Mfr. wants to sell his products to the govt. Is free to apply for the list or not - no govt, compulsion ' 315; MT-PWHD-015875 H. G. Murad Never tested respirators to determine effectiveness Don't know if this was done anywhere in govt. 319 Was not familiar with fact that J-M ran tests on respirator effectiveness 1969"7l Ex. 11 and Ex. 12 - one is a letter of April I969 asking a mfr. if they can come up with a reduced or asbestos free product 320 The other is a letter to shipyard asking about asbestos * work practices - May I969 These letters would be in line with the Phila. task Still feels the survey started in fall of I968 321 Would have been a preliminary internal survey before such letters went out P-C tests substantiated Selikoff's work 322 Someone from BUMED told him this Selikoff's conclusions were that asbestos fibers eventually caused lung cancer Did not make comparison tests to see if J-M products gave off more or less dust than other similar products 323 Don't know if the Navy did tests re. asbestos release characteristics of different mfrs.' products 323 Personal protection aspect was started prior to his tenure 323"4 Has no knowledge of its beginnings 324 In developing specs, his office worked closely with industry ^low of info, between his office and industry reps, in working on spec, being developed While he was working in coating, mfrs. brought to his attention changes in their existing asbestos products and new products which were developed 325 One of the purposes might be that the existing mil. spec. might not cover new or changed products 326 Then specs, were amended - this was one way they were updated Considered suggestions made by industry about changes in specs. Mfrs. sometimes provided suggested changes in language of spec. 327 and sometimes provided test results When drafts of specs, were prepared, 6120 submitted drafts to NIMA for review 329 Might also be reviewed by specific mfrs. - would depend on the spec. 330 Don't know if spec, for asbestos pipe covering was sent to individual mfrs. - couldhave been 331 Got some comments from NIMA Read all comments from NIMA and considered them 331 Depended on mfrs. and suppliers to supply material 332 and to supply info, because of their technical capabilities Spec, is used as part of procurement vehicle and unless it described an attainable material it was no longer useful 332 Consistent with practice that specs, were prepared to cover existing products Spec, could be used to identify existing products 333 Sometimes specs, were akin to mfrs.' product list Might phone members of the various NIMA committees to discuss comments 334 This was part of his office's relationship with industry - to try to bring about development of specs, for existing products Recalls no spec, where a provision wan included that warnings were not required or should not be included on any packages - re. asbestos products 335-6 Specs, did not prohibit anyone from putting warnings on product 336-7 MT-PWHD-015876 H. G. Murad Duties while in coatings re. specs, were to kaintain specs, in such a way as to provide best materials which the govt, could use in shipbuilding 337 Optimum materials availablefrom industry 338 Criteria came mostly from industry - mfrs. said what was available ' In insulation, had to take temperatures into account - could not use flammable material for high-temp, application - took into account stresses of shipboard use, availability and cost 338 Cost was a factor in overall way 339 Don't know who did consideration or price when drawing up a spec. 339"340 Specs, were already there - had been issued when he started his tenure 340 These specs, were called out in the standard 769 If they came up with a new spec. inc. an item that was very expensive, it would not be cited in the ship's specs, because of price 340 Did not price out every insulation material when writing a spec, or making changes Price was only a factor if it was exorbitantly high - greater than going price range of commonly found insulation Re. such things as friability - they maintained the characteristics already described in the spec, unless- some info, from industry cited improved characteristics 341 When proposed spec, was circulated - might just get agreement from some people 341-2 Got some disagreements - varied 342 Would sit down and discuss the change and whether ther was a problem or not If there was a problem proposed change might be dropped or amended Cannot recall specific disagreements within the Navy Dept. Most of the people on the Spec. Review Board were civilian - could include military personnel He experienced a Spec. Review Board turn down on a proposed change 343 Change or new spec, would not be promulgated until approved by Board If a spec, called for something that was too expensive it mightn't get included in a standard or spec, for a particular ship - this is his opinion 344 When someone designs a ship, plans and specs, for the ship specify certain materials meeting particular military specs, for particular places 344 Material is not used until somebody calls for use of material meeting a particular spec, on a set of plans and specs. Decision as to which mil or fed specs will be referenced is made by the design agent - someone in the Navy or engaged by the Navy 345 I f ! Loose bound asbestos is a felt material bound with wires or strings with asbestos fibers only loosely held 345-6 His training is as a chemist 346 Cannot recall any corrosive substance which he has studied the spec, for Without studying the spec, in question, cannot say if govt, might require labeling as corrosive Cannot think of any spec, he worked on which required special 1?beling 347 Don't know about labeling of explosive materials in specs. Cannot think of any spec, which addressed the issue of labeling of a cautionary nature Don't know if there is a mil. spec, for concentrated sulfuric acid Might be Army Chemical Corp 343 MT-PWHD-015877 H. G. Murad Don't know which govt. dept, would handle mil. spec, of explosive or flammable materials - would have to address specific material 3^-9 Porter test done in 1970-71 - results were not valid Was told that a Porter employee conducted the test Don't know where Test material was a felt - asbestos - two materials One was supposed to be a stiffer asbestos felt Test consisted of dropping a metal rod on the material He did not attend the actual test Another kind of product was loose bound felt - supposed to be tighter than predecessor and not to give off as many asbestos fibers into the air , Re. loose bound felt - he kicked it around a little and quite a bit of felt came off Just visual observation California tests was to see if a substitute for asbestos could be used on ships He was out of the job when this was concluded Results indicated that the test did not- work out Don't know if the Navy still uses asbestos on ships Understodd that the letter from Porter formed part of the basis for a portion of instruction 5100*26 His conclusion Letter spoke to different procedures suggested for ripout of asbestos Do not know as a fact that the letter formed basis for the instruction Don't recall when first saw the letter Recalls seeing the Porter letterhead Don't know date 350 351 352 352 352-3 353 35^ Spec. SS-C-466 -Ex. 4 - AAA asbestos cloth contained 9% asbestos in 1965 Correction sheet indicates that Grade AAA - delete 9 and substitute 95 Probably did deal with this before now - a long time ago Refreshed recollection that AAA cloth required 95^ asbestos Previous testimony re. interchangeability of 10% asbestos cloth with other cloths was incorrect Spec, was sent to NiMA to find out whether the sepc. and/or change described material that was available from industry and which could be mfrd. in necessary quantities and delivered for construction and for repair - 355 356 357 _ Cannot recall being involved in any specs, re. labeling ASTM - members from mfrs. and govt, and consultants and academia Purpose of reference in Exs. 2,34 was for testing products Normally spec, has a section addressing testing of material described 358 359 359 A1 Winer may be able to give more info, on the California task Joe Morelli was the person on the work preliminary for the Ca. task Part of the development of the FFG series of ships Used Eagle-Picher's high temp, insulation - rock wool insulation For high-temp piping on the ship 360 36I MT-PWHD-015878 H. G. Murad Ex. 13,MIL-I-278ID, June 13, 1963, 10 pages This is a performance spec. Specs, are used to describe existing products Asbestos or nonasbestos could be used in Ex. 13 Nonasbestos products which were in existence at the time were cal. sil. and fibreglass and perhaps mineral or rock wool Asbestos materials were used shipboard at that time for high temp, work rfad been told that the others were too friable, would not hold up People in shipyards and mfrs. told them this - cannot be specific about who Mil Standard 769 refers to installation procedures for insulation on page 10, para 6; page 11 and 12, 13 Brief description under each material of how to install it These are the installation procedures referred to in previous testimony contained in MIL standard 769 Understands that the Supervisor of Shipbuilding, Conversion 6 Repair, Groton, protects the interests of the govt. Understanding is based on experience.in the Navy All the SUPSHIPS during the time he was involved in insulation and later in design services branches forNAVSEA Acquired his understanding of SUPSHIPS responsibility Has no understanding of SUPSHIPS responsibility as to personnel safety in a private yard where SUPSHIPS is located Knows that SUPSHIPS maintains offices where there are private contract yards Understands that SUPSHIPS does have responsibility to monitor work practices at such private yards Don't know specifics - not within his expertise Ask SUPSHIPS or 07, shipyard resources 07 has authority over shipyards and over all Supervisors of Shipbuilding Documents are distributed to those organizations that the drafter feels have need of it Usually SUPSHIPS would get any safety directives Has had a little relationship with private yards where SUPSHIPS are located, over the years Newport News had asked some questions about asbestos material Sometime in 1971 Were wondering what material they could use for high temp insulation because it appeared to them that asbestos would become a problem This inquiry came through the type desk at NAVSHIPS Meeting was held at NAVSHIPS with reps, of NNews . Were uncertain what to use if they were not to use asbestos Was all oral Not reduced to writing at any stage Not much advice was given - said they must abide by the specs. Whatever specs, were available Instructions and directives referred to re. safety and health, relate primarily to Naval .-uniformed and civilian personnel Do not know of any Navy instruction or directive related to safety and health of employees of independent contractors at shipyards 362 363 . 363 . 363"^ 36^ 365 366-7 367 367 371" 3 373 37^ 37^-5 375 376 377 377 j : . , : 1 j . ' 377-8 378 379 379-80 381 // MT-PWHD-015879 f *4 ,< ` 5/21/79 Henry George Murad Volume I JELLEY f/" 7 8 9 10 11 13 14 15 16 20 21 22 23 26 9822 Bridle Ridg'e Court, Vienna, Virginia for last three months has been employed as an engineer by U.S. Air Force for last 14 years - since May '65, has been employed by U.S. Navy 1957 - Univ. of Md- Master's Degree in Inorganic Chemistry - Utica College - Bachelor's Degree in Chemistry - U.S. Army - six months' service 1957-63: Griffith Air Force Base - General Chemist (analysis for intelligence) 1963-65: Utica College - teacher of Chemistry while at Griffith and at Utica College - learned "minimal amounts" about asbestos; it does not burn; it is very inert to chemical reaction; it is used as high temperature insulating material \ while at Griffith and at Utica - learned nothing about asbestos and health May 1965 - joined (U.S.Navy) Marine Engineering Laboratory, Annapolis, Maryland laboratory - did research and development of ship's machinery; was involved in fluid processing lab; did work in submarine atmosphere and boiler water treatment while at laboratory, had no concern with asbestos November '66, joined Naval Ship Engineering Center (Nav Sec), Washington, D.C. while at Nav Sec, worked on water treatment systems and fire fighting chemicals (chemistry and toxocology section) only connection with asbestos - filters in water treatment systems for propulsion plants September 1969 - "coatings" unit of Nav Sec coatings unit concerned with preparation of specifications and standards deponent was "Materials Engineer" Ed Morganstearn, "Supervisory Engineer" was in charge primarily concerned with insulation materials Tom Pugielissi was predecessor (3 years); before him was Bob Smith duties: to maintain optimum insulation materials for use on board Naval ships insulation for piping, machinery, hull - but nor for electrical prior to September, 1969 - knew nothing about mil specs and mil stds pertinent to asbestos about Fall '68 - program to reduce or eliminate asbestos was initiated : . j ; j MT-PWHD-015880 (iU Pa 27 in Fall 1968, learned of program from Ed Cherobrier who then worked in chemistry and toxocology unit Cherobrier said he was trying to determine extent and where asbestos used aboard ship Cherobrier said there was high level Navy interest 28 there was then an article in either the New York Times or the Washington - Post in reference to asbestos and health hazards first time deponent heard there might be some asbestos-related dangers 29 Fall '68 - Cherobrier's duties included identification of asbestos uses 30 Cherobrier had people from Nav Sec, Philadelphia and asked to work with ' him 31 Philadelphia Division, Nav Sec dealt with ship machinery, mainly pro pulsion plants when joined "coating unit", learned about insulation by reading specs, j talking to predecessor and other people, both inside and outside USN 32 Nav Sec sections included- Boiler, Piping, and refrigeration - all within | ship Machinery Division - Code 6140 ! when joined in September '69 - predecessor had been involved in program j 34 asbestos was one of several problems - no priorities - depended upon ' pressure from higher up 36 material during years with coating section for hull insulation - surface ships - fiber glass; submarines - foam rubber 42 trying to reduce asbestos because of alleged hazard (accepted what j he was told) i 44 mil spec identifies a particular material mil std provides procedure on how you use that material, how the material j is applied j 45 mil spec identifies characteristics; used mainly performance standards they did not necessarily call for asbestos 46 when revising mil specs, did not ban asbestos because "we didn't know of . any materials that would do the job . . .other than asbestos" _ 47 By Fall '72 - not able to find all non-asbestos containing materials; were able to reduce the asbestos percent in some materials 48 did not reduce performance requirements went to industry for help ; one task aboard ship in California to determine use of non-asbestos _ 49 helped write an instruction citing procedures to be used while working with asbestos 50 others involved were Ed Cherobrier, Code 07 Nav Ships (shipped resources) Nav Ships safety, NAUSEC MT-PWHD-015881 Murad Fage Three 52 representative from Code 07 was Terry Crawford Larry Farina was the NAUSEC Safety Representative study was based on survey by Nav Sec, Philadelphia Division 55 visited USN shipyards at Boston, Portsmouth, Norfolk and Charleston to see how yards were adhering to instruction Cherobrier and deponent were in charge of the program 56 Cherobrier's boss was Frank Lovell 57 Cherobrier got involved with manufacturers and suppliers; deponent became involved to lesser extent '' Fall '72 - worked at Naval Ship Systems Command to be closer to home 58 Winer took over asbestos work; Cherobrier continued to work 59 Fall '72 - end of association with asbestos Mr. Birnbaum was Morganstearn and Lovell's supervisor - a section head was one of the USN reps on the ASTM (Insulation Section) -while with coatings) - 60 involved with NIMA - used to clear specifications with them to make sure that the kind of performance requirements set forth were attainable 64 has no pertinent documents CHRISTIE 65 deponent's effort did not concern electrical insulation on gaskets KENNY 66 1 69 74 instruction which was updated was intended to keep asbestos fibers in the atmosphere to absolute minimum - wet down the area before ripout with a fine water spray - wear respirators - no smoking during rip out - use of special kind of shears - air monitoring -special laundering - special clothes instructions is Nav Ship Instr. 5100.26, 2/9/71 (Winer Ex. 2) prior to '71, does not know if USN had any instructions with respect to use of asbestos in USN shipyards MONSTREAM 86 from 1969 - '72: approximately 10 to 15 percent of time devoted to asbestos 87 USN higherups interested in program were admirals MT-PWHD-015882 Murad . Page Four 89 article in paper (Cherobrier) referred to Dr. Selikoff MOHER 99 2 101 1 103 105 106 107 108 109 112 113 115 116 117 118 119 120 121 work included maintainence and revision of mil specs in addition to performance spec - characteristic Composition/spec mil I - 15091C required asbestos SS-C - 00466D : SS-C - 466E : asbestos required std 769 would tell what specs could be used for specific purposes std 769 would instruct on how to apply insulation; has reviewed mil std 769 V others who assisted in review were A1 Munkreus, Joseph Amore, Cherobrier, Morganstearn, Lovell Munkreus was concerned with piping Bu Med, Cmdr Sam Barboo, had input into Ex. 1/Nav Ship instructor spoke with and met with Barboo on astestos use aboard ship; Barboo's boss, a Captain, also got involved Code 6101C, 6105(safety), 6147 (boiler), 6153 (piping) people would get involved in changes to specs recommendations would go to 6120, specifications 6120 would send to industry "to make sure industry could in fact supply material" sometime industry would suggest changes ultimate approval for the adoption of a change in mil specs Specification Review Board Spec Review Board - made up of Nav Sec (now Nav Sea) personnel each of the major directors on board presentation to Spec Review Board would be in writing and orally secretary made minutes of Spec Review Board meetings there was no appeal from decision of Spec Review Board 1 I ! ,1 i t COLLINS 123 when joined coatings, talked with manufacturers and/or suppliers spoke also with naval shipyard personnel i MT-PWHD-015883 124 128 129 COYNE 130 133 HOWD 135 136 140 142 143 145 149 163 164 165 166 spoke with Newport News; cannot recall any contact with EB no written instructions concerning program knows of no one who visited EB didn't know of Shipbuilder's Council one of first meetings re: asbestos - met JM and HK Porter reps; Cherobrier and Birnbaum attended - discussed rep out procedures and reduction of asbestos content Ship spec - description of specific ship's characteristics ' '{ , ! I in trying to find a substitute product - relied to a large extent on manufacturers' and suppliers' representative; would also receive material from ASTM and NIMA didn't attend NIMA meetings but received some letters stating NIMA position on specs sent to them for review between '69 - '72; USW performed no tests of an asbestos-free or low asbestos insulation cloth; relied on industry - mainly oral rep from Porter said there was need for asbestos in cloth talked with PC personnel - Mr. Sinclair; also someone from Pittsburgh PC personnel advised of Univ. of Cal. study being taken to test hazards told results coincided with Selikoff's work PC asked specs to remain while Univ. of Cal. tests were being performed didn't recall name of JM personnel he met at initial meeting; they were among those who stated had to continue to use asbestos as part of changing spec - would send to NIMA for comments then, would either accept or reject comments thinks, NIMA suggested a revision didn't know of ATI couldn't recall a spec being drafted or revised for a product that was not then in existence other than PC discussion, cannot recall discussing health with reps, they were basically marketing people; they were not well versed on health hazards I ! ! I j > , .. - .. MT-PWHD-015884 Murad Rage Six 167 a 169 170 171 6 174 7 177 8 178 9 179 10 180 cannot recall ever receiving a written communication concerning health from a manufacturer mil std 769B, 1/3/76 over time, also talked with EP, Claremont, RM, OCF may have talked with Amatex Navexos P. 52, Volume 111, No. 8, August, 1946. didn't recall seeing Navexpos - P. 52, Vol. IV, No. 1, January, 1947, didn't recall seeing Safety Manual, Part 2, shops 56, 25 and 27, Norfolk Naval Shipyard, First edition, 1954 didn't recall seeing Safety Handbook for pipe fitters, NANORD INST. 5100.21, January 7, 1958 has not seen before NAVSO. P. 2455, Safety Precautions For Shore Activities, April, 1965, changed June 1, 1967 had not seen before MT-PWHD-015885 3/22/79 HENRY GEORGE MURAD VOLUME II HOWD (cont'd) 197 206 207 208 209 212 215 216 218 219 221 222 223 224 225 228 230 232 piping code wrote up Mil Std 769; cited various specifications of material to be used for lagging pipe Naval Ship Technical Manual - contains instructions on procedures for the installation of asbestos insulation products manual is issued to all ships and navy shipyards; accessible to government contract yards . , during period of time with coatings, does not recall any publication of Bu Med concerning asbestos and health .. purpose of military sepcification - to describe a material which the government may want to procure Mil Std describes where certain specification materials may be used in an operational situation; some instruct how product is to be used or applied. y initiation of spec change and Code 6124 would determine who would be involved in spec revision i i today. Code 07 (resources - manpower and equipment) has responsibility for Supervisor of Shipbuilding; responsibility assumed in 1974 when Naval Ships and Naval Ord. merged to become Naval Sea j > ' "FKL 2", Sup Ship is std navy distribution list identification ; does not know if manufacturers participated (inputed into Philadelphia survey) thinks he may have spoken to Jack Barnhart of NIMA over phone Barnhart, executive secretary, signed letters on NIMA's position j can recall no instance where a manufacturer of asbestos products came with a non-asbestos substitute dealth with Sanford Heard of OCF [ dealt with Burt Tower of JM - spoke in general terms about substitution with asbestos-free products . talked with RM representatives talked withPorter representatives - they showed tests - talked with Eagle Picher - they were proposing an asbestos-free product ; talked with Claremont - in regard to asbestos-free substitution; they were proposing a glass cloth; it was being tested and written up at Portsmouth Naval Shipyard in '72 7 ' Rob Roy was Claremont representative has not visited any manufacturers Code 08 - nuclear reactor directorate headed by Adm. Rickover ' MT-PWHD-015886 Page Two *' Murad 233 234 235 236 SCHWARTZ 247 251 252 253 255 256 257 258 259 260 262 263 received an inquiry concerning program from 08 Qualified Product List - list of manufacturers whose product has been qualified by pre-testing Code 6124 makes up QPL testing varied - sometimes by government, sometimes by manufacturers, sometimes by pretesting asbestos reduction program was not specifically funded never received any reports in connection with the program does not recall if he read reports submitted to Cherobrier other 1969-1972 than trip structure reports, v " of USN: he wrote no , CNO f Naval reports Naval Ship Systems / Command /Naval Air Systems material Command / Command ^ 1 ' Naval Ordinances Sys maybe \ terns Command Naval Supply Naval Electronics Systems Command Systems Command as part of program, contact with Naval Supply Systems to determine how much asbestos was available and try to get them to reduce the procurement of high asbestos content insulation Naval Supply Systems - responsible for procuring, inventorying and stockpiling material for naval shipyards did not have contact with Naval Environmental Health Center tasked Naval Ship Research and Development Center to review asbestos containing specifications with the intent to reduce or eliminate asbestos; center did not test; does not know if report prepared as he was then leaving specifications would not be changed until NSN was assured that the change would still satisfy the needs of the Navy ' _ deponent had no direct contact with OSHA, NIOSH; does not know if Cherobrier did other ASTM meeting, at Hershey, in October 1971, did not attend outside meetings at ASTM, discussed reduction (elimination of asbestos in context of satisfying needs of USN) . did not consult with Holtgren Captain Rosenwinkle was Supervisor of Commander Barboo Captain Lawton may have been Barboo's supervisor MT-PWHD-015887 Page Three ' Murad 264 265 266 268 269 270 273 274 275 11 276 12 277 279 purpose of Sup Ships - supervise construction of ships to be acquired by the Navy at private shipyards there were sup ships personnel at private yards proposed specs would not normally be sent to Sup Ships or to yards purpose of "instruction" is for information to be disseminated throughout USN NAUSEC NAUSEC NAUSEC NAUSEC NAUSEC 6101 - materials development and application 6040 - ships machinery 610SE - safety 6131 - habitability 6153 - piping NAUSHIPS P7D - shipyard resources NAUSEA (formerly NAUSHIPS) contracting office wrote contracts with private yards purpose of incorporating mil stds and mil specs into shipbuilding contracts was to ensure that the shipbuilder would meet the requirements of the USN government furnished equipment - material provided by government to contractor was not aware that government furnished equipment ever contained asbestos has spoken with people at British Ministry of Defense; didn't recall if he reviewed their documents NAUSEC letter to OCF, 5/5/69 and 5/11/69 NAUSEC letter to EB, 4/30/69 has no recollection of previously seeing exhibits 11 and 12 DE ANGELO 282 294 tested asbestos-free material aboard a ship in California in 1972 understand unsatisfactory as it could not withstand rigors of ship board stress In 1969, based on article provided by Cherobrier, "understanding of the nature of the alleged health hazards of asbestos were that it caused lung disorders and lung cancer" LEVY 294 300 James Nesser of PC sounds familiar Charles Ernst sounds familiar -- MT-PWHD-015888 Page Four Murad (LEVY 300 cont'd) B C Windbladt is vague Skelley-remember name, from JM Gus Fowler of JM met could have met Manahan of JM 301 Bob Simmons of JM sounds familiar JM people tried to bring deponent up to date as to what technical developments were going on with JM 302 either talked with or received letter from Sunbury of ATI 303 ASTM meeting attended included reps from JM, EP, OCF, PC and Porter 304 ASTM changes were incorporated into certain mil specs; changes in ASTM would therefore change spec 311 never had contact with EB personnel t 314 hard asbestos - like a millboard - similar to slate material which would not flare off very readily, if at all - used on bulkheads as a fire door same material could be made into moulded pipe covering - JM had something along these lines 315 it was quite expensive and heavy 316 ultimate goal was to eliminate asbestos; accepted products with lesser asbestos content because otherwise could not meet mission 317 goal was based on health hazards and dangers 318 government did not compel manufacturer to sell 319 never tested respirators; does not know if government tested was unaware that JM was testing 322 PC study at University of California, he was told by Bu Med, substantiated Dr. Selikoff's conclusions that asbestos fibers eventually cause lung cancer 323 does not know of any tests showing whether Unibestos or Thermobestos gave off more dust as it was being worked 326 in revising specs, took into consideration requests of industry 332 needed manufacturers to supply information because of their technological capability and background practice was to prepare specs to cover existing products 335 never prepared a spec which said warnings were not required; it was not addressed MT-PWHD-015889 ' 'Page Five Murad 336 specs did not prohibit placement of a warning TILLEY 339 cost was a factor in selection of material 345 decision as to what is specified is made by USN SCHWARTZ 358 359 DE ANGELO does not recall any specs which dealt with labeling ASTM reference in spec deals with method of testing; it does not specify a particular material or component k 361 California test was of EP mineral-wool product TEDFORD 13 362 364 mil I 2781 D, June 13, 1963 performance spec; didn't use non-asbestos; told by shipyards and manufacturers that non-asbestos was too friable NOWINSKI 364 373 377 381 Sup Ships, Groton - protect interest of US; make sure US is getting ship contracted for Sup Ships (fuzzy according to deponent) has some responsibility to monitor work practices of private yard Sup Ships would normally receive safety notices In 1971, Newport News Sup Ships inquired concerning asbestos does not know of any USN instruction or directive related to safety or health of contract yard employees. - 1 ` ' MT-PWHD-015890 HENRY GEORGE MURAD Elizabeth C. Hayes 0111 SOURCE OF INFORMATION: Deposition and Summary May 21-22, 1979 Mr. Murad has a B.S. degree in Chemistry and a M.S. degree in Inorganic Chemistry, 1957. He had been a general engineer in the United States Air Force for three months at the time this deposi tion was taken. Prior to that time he was a civilian employee of the U.S. Navy for 14 years. Beginning in 1965 he was employed at Marine Engineering Laboratory, Annapolis, Maryland, for 1-1/2 years as a general chemist in the fluid processing laboratory. He transferred to the Naval Ship Engineering Center (then located in Washington, D.C.) as a general chemist in the Chemical and Toxicology Unit and worked in that position from 1966 to 1969. His involvement with asbestos, which included working with industry to write specifications and to limit the amount of asbestos in products and search for substitutes, was during the years 1969 to 1972. During this period of time he worked as a Materials Engineer in the Coatings Division of Naval Ship Engineering Center. He was involved in working with all types of insulation and ablative materials. He states that it was expected that asbestos would be used to meet specifications. (p.149) No substitute was known to meet all performance requirements. (p.101). The specifications described asbestos (p.104). In developing specifications, his office worked with indus try. Manufacturers of asbestos products advised that there was no suitable substitute for asbestos. (p.149). People in industry 0903H/26 MT-PWHD-015891 HENRY GEORGE MURAD (Cont.) and personnel in the shipyards advised that substitute products were too friable and would not hold up on board ship. Mr. Murad states that specifications were drafted for exist ing products and that he cannot recall a draft or revision for a product which was not in existence at the time of the draft or revision. (p.165). (I would limit this statement to the years of Mr. Murad's experience, 1969-1972.) He refers to a test of the suitability of products substi tuted for asbestos products on a naval ship in California, con ducted by the Navy. The "California Task" (1972) was an attempt to determine whether an asbestos substitute could be used on board ship. He was told (probably by A1 Winer, p. 282) that the conclu sion was that the substitute would not work out. (p. 351, 352). He was one of the Navy representatives on the American Society for Testing and Materials. (Prior to his involvement with asbestos.) (p. 59,60) He had many contacts with industry. JM contacts included: Bert Tower and Mr. Skelley. He possibly had contact with Gus Fowler, Mr. Manahan, B. D. Windblatt, Charles Ernst and Bob Simmons. Mr. Murad made several visits to shipyards and observed insulation being applied and ripped out. He is familiar with various types of specifications. He is somewhat familiar with SUPSHIPS, which supervised the construction of Navy ships in private shipyards. 0903H/27 MT-PWHD-015892 HENRY GEORGE MURAD (Cont.) Information from manufacturers regarding specifications would be filed under the particular specification in his office files. He doesn't know if the files are still there and he indicated that his filing was not absolutely perfect. His contacts and associates include: Ed Morganstearn Tom Pugielissi Bob Seith Ed Cherowbrier Larry Farina Jerry Crawford A1 Winer Frank Lovell Leon Birnbaum A1 Munkrees Joseph Amore Sam Barboo Captain Ryan Robe r t Roy Ben Leota Mr. Holtgren In addition he met with representatives from various manufacturers on a frequent basis. 0903H/28 MT-PWHD-015893 DATE 5/21/79 5/22/79 HENRY GEORGE MURAD JURISDICTION U.S.D.C. for Dist. of CT. U.S.D.C. for Dist. of CT. CIVIL ACTION NO H-75-327 H-76-434 H-75-327 H-76-434 MT-PWHD-015894 HENRY GEORGE MURAD, Materials and General Engineer NAVSEC DATE: May 21, 1979 TIME PERIOD: Joined Navy in May of 1965 From 1965-'69 - little concern with asbestos '66-'69 - connection with asbestos was regarding water filters and treatment systems '69-'72 concerned with specs and standards '72- went to work for Naval Ships Systems Command SUBJECT: Specs, asbestos elimination, instxctions regarding working practices with asbestos, MIL standards. Spec. Review Board, NIMA, exhibits. HIGHLIGHTS: No research on asbestos prior to 1963. 1969-'72 involved with insulation materials and ablative materials. 1968-'69 only contact with asbestos program was in talking to Cherowbrier. Sept. '69 read about insulation. When took over position in Sept. 1969, had been some work done regarding asbestos elimination. By Fall of 1972 had not found all non-asbestos containing material which would do the job for hi-temp insulation. Describes the instructions existing from working practices with asbestos in '69-'70. '69-'72 spent 10-15% of his time concerned with asbestos on ships. One of the first meetings after joined Coatings was with J-M, Porter. Meeting was to talk about procedures to be used during rip out and trying to reduce asbestos content. Sept. 1968 attended the meeting dealing with the reduction of asbestos J-M was present, doesn't think that health was ever a consideration in drafting a spec. MT-PWHD-015895 HENRY GEORGE MURAD DATE: May 22, 1979 TIME PERIOD: Saw installation procedures for various kinds of insulation after 1969. Early 1970s recalls that Pittsburg Corning was sponsoring testing to verify Selikoff's work. Newport News shipyard had asked some questions about asbestos material sometime in 1971. SUBJECT: Specifications, asbestos substitution program, QPL, Shipyard visits, ASTM meeting in Oct. '71. HIGHLIGHTS: Has seen pre-formed pipe insulation being installed and taken out of the box. Shipyard visits were usually regarding insulation. Naval Ship Technical Manual would contain instructions for installation of asbestos products; this was issued to all ship and Navy shipyards and is accessible to private shipyards. Does not recall any instance where asbestos manufacturer brought products of non-asbestos substitutes. Would receive catalogs and sales brochures from manufacturers. Specs would not be changed until the Navy was assured that the change would still satisfy Navy needs. Purpose of incorporating MIL standards and specs into contracts was to insure that the shipbuilder would meet requirements of the U. S. Navy. California tasks regarding asbestos-free high-temp insulation was in summer of '72. Representatives of J-M attended ASTM Spec meetings. Manufacturers sometimes provided suggested changes and test results for specs. Specs did not prohibit anyone from placing warnings on products. Does not know of Navy Instructions or directive related to safety and health of employees of independent contractors at shipyards. i } MT-PWHD Henry George Murad May 21, 1979 deposition . Nav Ship Inst. 5100.26, dated Feb. 9, 1971 pertained to wetting down area before ripdut, wearing respirators, and instructions that insulation be cut out with special shears, not ripped out by hand. (p. 67) He doesn't think health was ever a consideration in drafting a specification. (p. 167) ` ' MT-PWHD-015897 Henry George Murad ' May 22, 1979 deposition , i From 1969-1972 there were instructions to wet rip out and to wear respirators. (p. 140) 1 down area before 1 He saw various installation procedures on board ships. He doesn't recall if he saw anyone wearing a respirator. Sometimes work area was partitioned off. (p. 199) i( MT-PWHD-015898 H. G. Murad May 22, 1979 ' SUPSHIPS has authority over 'shipyards and over all supervisors of shipbuilding. (p. 375) Usually SUPSHIPS would get any safety directives. (p. 377) -1 Q- MT-PWHD-015899 Henry George Murad 5/22/79 Vol. II (Deposition) - ' He cannot think of any spec.,that he worked on which required special labeling. He doesn't know about Labeling of explosive, materials in specifications. He cannot think of any spec, which addressed the issue of labeling of a cautionary nature. (P- 347) He cannot recall being involved in any specs, regarding labeling, (p. 358) MT-PWHD-015900 r n r -1 ;. < v<M i * A the record (Discussion off record) HCV.D : 0 Mr. Murac, you have explained oc us year early conversation v:ith Mr. Cherobrier concerning ohe asbestos . substitution program or attempts. Did you receive any written rr.ateriai iron hir. concerning asbestos arid health at a e .ijv* . > t i -- A O A hot that I recall. I nay have. As 1 -said earlier, I nay have read that nev.-scapor article that seemed to kick this .'hole thing off, but I don't revenuer vrhen I read it or even if I did read it. I certainly remember talking about it, hearing about it. . . 3 You remember it being brought to your attention? A It v:as brought to my attention, yes. . hi' Q There v:as the Times, The I lev: York Times article? A It was either the Times or the Post. Q Or The V.ashingtcn Pest? . ;'lft A One or the ether. ' Q It concerned the Seiikcff work? A Yes. . - .. v" <> :.h.vycj. srV*fi* is'i0ri v/.is cccur.er;: 3 s.--**/ w- 'i* *; s.-'.ttrs oAi ^ s j`.. . MT-PWHD-015901 r r FILE COPY 7*r>t- rfaajTM., 1ST* _______________ no/ -J O;i n- ij.;i-l H *'r C m~'-ZS T : DISTRICT COUR' vJT ' r0*' ow''WT *.*<"S* ^^** *-* YI'vO 1 r;' Iff : RE ;:. GENERAL : DY.\,A;'-tlSS',''iSl^ CML No. 1 SAJ'MIE GRAY, et al. , intif f s -versus- :::zsal DYNAMICS CORPORATION, et al.. Defendant s. n-- ''O r-- rr^rp A I.--J. ri o . U'zr) T.f'.T 13. k U < *i , e i. di. , Plaintiffs, -versusUNITZD STATES 0? AKER! 'A, et au , Defendant s. Civil Action No. H-75-3; Civil Action No. H-76-^34 Deposition of HZ taken pursuant to the Federal Rules of Civil Proce dure, at the offices of the United States --rcr.erw o: justice, Toaa ::uiiG;nt, t PRODUCED JM - 83 MT-PWHD-015902 r- r - 2 Street, Washington, D. C., before Roy F. Brown, a Registered Professional Reporter and Notary Public within and for the State of Connecticut, on Monday, May 21, 1979i commencing at 10:03 o'clock in the forenoon. oOo Appearances: i KREINDLER & KREINDLER, ESQS. Attorneys for the Plaintiffs 99 Park Avenue New York, New York 10016 . BY: STANLEY J. LEVY, ESQ., ' of Counsel mcnamara & hovtd, esqs. Attorneys for the Defendant Corporation 102 Oak Street . Hartford, Connecticut 06106 General Dynamics BY: HAD LEIGH H. HOL'D, ESQ., of Counsel -and- FOLEY, HOAG i ELIOT, ESQS. 10 Post Office Square . Boston, Massachusetts 02109 BY V TTTT'ETrR 3. vi/-S of Counsel produced JM-83 MT-PWHD-015903 r- 3 Appearances (Cont'd): UPDIKE, KELLY & SFELLACY, ?. C. Attorneys for the Defendant Textile Corporation One Constitution Plaza . Hartford, Connecticut 06103 American ` Asbestos BY: ELIZABETH R. COLLINS, ESQ., of Counsel V;IGG J.N & DA.NA , n o Q S . Attorneys for the Defendant Eagle 195 Church Street P. 0. Box 1335; New Haven, Connecticut C65I0 Richer, Inc. BY: S. ROBERT JELLEY, ESQ., i of Counsel ROBERT G. MONTSTREAM, ESQ. Attorney for the Defendant Eastern Refractories Company, Inc. 33 Pratt Street Glastonbury, Connecticut 06033 GORDON , MUIR & FOLEY, ESQS. Attorneys for the Defendants Johns-Manville Corporation, Johns-Manville Sales Corporation and Johns-Manville Products Corporation 39 Lafayette Street Hartford, Connecticut 06106 3Y: :ER C. SCHWARTZ, ESQ of Counsel -ana- i SAN'OERS. GALE a RUSSEL: L . r x ^ r. : * r c in- r : c produced JM-83 MT-PWHD-015904 r Appearances (Cont'd): james ghee:;, esq. Johns-Hanville Corporation Ken-Caryl Ranch . Denver, Colorado DAKAKER, LEWIS & TAMOHEY, ESQS. Attorneys for the Defendant Corporation 39 Russ Street Hartford, Connecticut O0IO6 Pittsburgh-Coming 3Y: FREDERICK B. TEDFORD, ESQ., ' i of Counsel MI 7o^ ARD, KOKH, 'ITZG ESQS . Attorneys for the Defendants K. K. ?o ter Co Inc., and The Southern Asbestos Co. 237 Buckingham Street Hartford, Connecticut C5i05 BY: JAMr^S M. MOrlER, C/SQ., of Counsel -and- SAMDS, AKDERSCH, MARKS & MILLER, ESQS. 1120 Fidelity Building Richmond, Virginia 23219 BY : ALBERT D . BUC-G , JR . , ESQ . , of Counsel PRODUCED JM - 83 MT-PWHD-015905 3 r....... .................................................. ppearances (Cont'd): 3AI, POLLOCK & DUNHIGAM, ZSQ3. Attorneys for the Defendant Raybestos-Manhattan, Inc. '. 10 Middle Street Bridgeport. Connecticut 0660If u A.'i_o i_.. C j /i i ^ n o Q , of Counsel ba: ill <ic jw flO- T^rs c ^ u >v, O Attorneys for the Defendant Shook & Fletcher One Financial Plaza Hartford, Connecticut C61Q3 Oj DCTTfl? T [ A 'Tf'IT'O Z'C.n r L'lLLiS u KOLA HAH, Z3QS. ' Attorneys for the Defendant Westinghouse Electric P. 0. 3ox 1109 955' Main Street Bridgeport, Connecticut 06cQ4 BY: FREDERICK W. CHRISTIE, ESQ., of Counsel KENNY & BRIMMER, .ESQS. Attorneys for the Defendant 5 Grand Street Hartfc rd, Connecticu UNARCO \TJ ncr^* uI. p < ay of Counsel i PRODUCED Ji - 83 MT-PWHD-015906 n~ 5 A p p e a r a n c e s (Co.it' d) : pon,T"v r/'vrr* v 7 r\r,v'7 V/ vj ^ J O L. -- J. Mk +J 'U t --t J. * i y _. O Attorneys for the Defendant Fiberglas Corporation 266 Pearl Street ` Hartford, Connecticut 06103 Owens-Co. mg J DeAHGELO, SQ. , of Counsel 1-UiJ- R, TAYLOR,1 CURRAL it LANGEK3ACH, ESQS . Attorneys for the Defendant Defense Apparel 4l Lewis Street Hartford, Connecticut Q61C3 . DAVID COOLEY, ESQ of Counsel PETER SCOTT MOHILSHI, ESQ. -andGORLAL'D, ESQ. Attorneys for the Defendant United America Department of Justice Tort Section, Civil Division Safeway Building Washington, D. C. 20040 States of oOo PRODUCED JM-83 MT-PWHD-015907 r r henry j L. n 3 r, T7 MU R A called as a witness , having been first duly sworn by the Notary Public (Roy F. Brown), was examined and testified as fellows: MR. SCKV.'ARTZ : The usual stipulations, just so there is no misunderstanding, unless someone objects: Roy is competent to swear in the witness and to take the testimony, and that all objection:; as to the notice are waived and all objections except as to form are reserved until time of trial. ' Off the record. (Discussion off the record) Ul.no r*' 17 V A V* T ' i /*, "p "T o' T BY NR. JELLZY: . Q V:hy don't you give us your full name and address. Nr. Murad. A Henry George Murad, 9322 Bridie Ridge Court, Vienna, Virginia. " Q By whom are you employed, Mr. Murad? A By the United States Air Force. Q V:hat oosition do you hold with the United Suates SANDERS. GALE .3 RUSSELL PRODUCED - 83 MT-PWHD-015908 r r r Air Force? A I'm a general engineer. 2 How long have you been employed by the Air Force? A . About three months. I i Q By whom were you employed prior to your employment fcv the Air Force? ' I 1 Q A Almost fourteen years. Q Does that mean that you began in about 1965 with the Uavy? A . That's right. Hay of '65^ Q V.'hat is your educational background, Mr. Murad? A Well, I have a Master's Degree in Inorganic Chemistry, n From? The University of Maryland, in 1957. Q And your Bachelor's Degree ? A That was in chemistr y, from ' Syracuse University. n Were you in the serv ice at a A Six none; . s , yes , in the Army SENDERS. GALE fS3ELL PRODUCED -83 MT-PWHD-015909 r r Q What v;as your first employment after you received your haste:?'s Degree? A I worked for the Air Force at Griffiss Air Force Base. rw> * A n. That is in Rome, New York? Rome, New York, right. . . i ' Doing what? A General chemist. . Q How long were .vcu at Griffiss Air Force Base? A Till September of '63. , , Then where did you go to work? A I worked for Utica College. I taught various chemistry c:ourses. Q That was for two years, until 1965, was it? . ' A That's correct, two school years, right. : Q What did you do at Griffiss Air Force Base as a general chemist for six years? A Well, basically, analytical chemistry. * Q Analyzing what? A Analyzed all kinds of samples, air, water, soil ' samples, for trace concentrations of a variety of different elements and/or corns our. is. PRODUCED JM - 83 MT-PWHD-015910 10 What was the purpose for which you were making these analyses? e\ >1 1 it was to gather -- intelligence-gathering purposes . 3 Did the section or department that you were in at Griffiss have a name of some sort? A I recall it was a chemistry unit. Q It was the chemistry unit of what? A Chemistry unit; of -- well, overall. Worked for intelligence and reconnaisance, I believe it was called at that time, I and R; I believe that was the name. Q V/hat kinds of courses did you t.each at Utica College, in chemistry? A Taught general chemistry, nurse's chemistry, organic and research chemistry, special research projects. Basically it. Q At any tine during your underg aduate or graduate education or your work for Griffiss or you teaching at Utica College, did you learn anything abou asbestos? A Just minimal amounts. I knew that asbestos did not burn, that it retained -- you know, it retained its own properties: it was very ine vj chemical .on; SAWDERS. GALE RUSSELL C : r ::: \ ,, t' : r> cr PRODUCED JM - 83 MT-PWHD-015911 r n n v;as used as high-temperature insulating material. Just the basics. 3 Did you learn - MR. NOYTUSKI : Just a minute, please. ' ' (Discussion off the record) MR. NOV.'I.'ISKI: Go ahead. BY MR. JELLEY: Q During either your undergraduate years or your graduate years or your time at Griffiss or your teaching at Utica College, did you'learn anything about any health hazards associated with asbestos? A Ho. . Q Did any of your -work or studies during that period of time, from the early '50's until 1963, deal in any wav -with the health .hazards of various chemicals or other materials? A Yes, to a minimal amount. Q When was J 4- 4. hat that was so? A V'O 1 1 of cour se, working in any T. o of chemi stry , you must be aware of the hazards involved, and a variety of chemicals are hazardous from the standpoint of burns and & RLI SELL PRODUCED JM - 83 MT-PWHD-015912 2 know how to handle such things as sulfuric acid, a very common laboratory chemical. It can cause serious burns, and poisonous if anybody are foolish enough to ingest it. That kind of thing. V/e had to know the basics about the chemicals that v;e dealt with. Q But none of your studies or work during that period required you to do research or study in that area of dangers; did it? A No. ; HR. KENNY: I think the record ought to reflect, Hr. Nov:inski, that there is constant conferring between the deponent and yourself; at least in the last six questions there have been three conferences. HR. NOV/INSKI: I think it is a gross distortion. Hr. Kenny. I have not conferred v;ith the witness while any question has been pending. If you want to make your comments at a relevant time, so the record will be accurate, you are invited to, but please do not put such characterisations on the record as -- PRODUCED JM - 83 MT-PWHD-015913 r n n 13 MR. KERRY: I see nothing in the v:ay of a caricature here. There have been three conferences in the last five minutes. MR. ROV.'IRSKI: 'I again make the point: ' ' not while any question has been pending, and they have not been constant. Y MR. JELLEY: 3 Mr. Murad, in May of i960 you left Utica College and went to work for the R1 avy* A Yes. Is that correct? What piece of the Ravy did you begin working for in May of 16 5? At that time it was called the Marine Engineering Labcratcrv. Q Where was it? A That's at Annapolis, Maryland. Q What bureau or agency or piece of the Navy was the Marine Engineering Laboratory a part of? A Organisationally, I don't know if it was under the Bureau of Ships or not. I think it was. I think it was part of the Bureau of Ships. 3 What did the Marine Engineering Laboratory at SANDERS. GALE L RUSSELL ' c :* rt cr PRODUCED JM - 83 MT-PWHD-015914  <t Annapolis do? A Basically, the laboratory did research and development in the area of ship's machinery. Q '/.'as this all kinds of ship machinery or some particular kind? A Several different kinds. They had the heavy machinery for -- that included the propeller -- propulsion plant, rather, and ship silencing. Those are the two I knew of. Q ; has this nuclear and nonnuclear, or just one of the two? A. I don't knew. Q You do not know whether the research and development that was going on at the Marine Engineering Lab dealt with nuclear or whether it dealt with nonnuclear propulsion systems ? A Yes, I don't know it as a fact; that's right. Q What, specifically , did you do there? A I was involved in the fluid processing lab and did work in submarine atmosphe res and also in boiler water treatment. V, How long K"e you at the Marine Engineering Lab PRODUCED JM-83 MT-PWHD-015915 r r r -o in Annapolis? A A year and a half. Q VJhat do you r.ean v;hen you say that you d id work in submarine atmospheres? ' V.'eil, we determined the components of the submarine at mosphere. The objective was to keep the atmosphere as habitable as possible. Q Was this atmosphere from merely a gaseous point of view, or other things as well? A Well, anything that was in the atmosphere; well, in the breathing air of the submarine. Q Was asbestos in the atmosphere anything you had any concern with -- A No. Q -- duringyour timethere? A No. Q Where did you go from the Marine. Engineering Laboratory in Annapolis? ' A Naval Ship Engineering Center, that was located in Washington at that time. Q Is that no longer in Washington? --------------- , - .*W < -- W 5 A ^ *A PRODUCED JM-83 MT-PWHD-015916 r r r 16 o What did you do for the Naval Ship Engineering C ent er? I started working on water treatment systems ana fire-fighting chemicals. Q* Were you still being a chemist in the things that you were doing, or were you starting to seem more like an engineer? A More like an engineer, administrative type. Q How long were^youw ith the Naval Ship Engineering Center, concerned with water treatment systems and fire- fight ing chemicals? ' A About three years. 0 So that brought youup to about 1370? A September '63, right. Q Did you have any concern -with asbestos while you were 'working In the Naval Ship Engineering Center? MR. NOWIN5KI: Objection. Argumentative. You can answer. ' A Very little. ' THE WITNESS: I'm sorry, would you repeat f-V-i question again, please i'*4 V o -- i-f -- -- - -- rvuSu say 5 corisac*ci`-.r*2 PRODUCED JM - 83 MT-PWHD-015917 r r r 17 the objection, I' ~ not sure that I can remember what the question is, since the objection seemed 1.ct J* But why don't you read the question again, Mr . Reporter (The question referred to was read.) (Continuing) The answer to that is yes. '.-.'as that in connection with fire fighting? V/eil, very little. o Tell te, then^ the reason that you had concern with asbestos during that period of tine. ij ust ci mnnn 0 sam$ objection, argunentative. You can answer. A Your question? MR. JZLLEY: V.'hy don't you repeat the , I question. (The pending question -was read.) A (Continuing) I don't understand the question. Q All right, let's start again on that subject. I asked you whether, 'while you were at the '.'aval Ship Engineering Center, you had had any concern with asbestos, and I think your answer was yes; and then I asked you whether SAUCERS. GALE d RUSSELL PRODUCED JM - 83 MT-PWHD-015918 r r r 13 that was in connection with fire fighting, and you told me, I thini:, barely, or just a little, leading me to believe that it was in some other connection that you had reason to think about asbestos, so I air. trying to determine that reason. A Okay. With regard to high-temperature insula tion. Q V.'hat is it that you were doing at the Naval Ship Engineering Center that involved high-temperature insulation? A Weil, I was irj charge of dealing with specifica tions for all kinds of insulating material, thermal insulating material, primarily, some sound insulation, very, very minuscule amount of electrical insulation. ' Q Did the piece of the Naval Ship Engineering Center that you worked in during these three years, more or less, have a name? A Yes. It was called the -- I worked --let's see, It was called chemistry and -- for the three years that you are referring to, it was called chemistry and toxicology unit. r*R. JELLEY: Can you have the answer read back, please? . (The answer was read.) PRODUCED JM-83 MT-PWHD-015919 r- n r 3Y MR. JELLEY Q T his is 1567 through up to September '69; is that correct? A Approximately. It was November '66 to September '69. `' : Q Was the chemistry and toxicology section concerned with the writing of specifications and standards? A Specifications and standards, yes. : Q This was specifications and standards for what? A For a variety of different chemicals that are used in -- on bo-rd ship, fire extinguishing agents, water treatment chemicals, water treatment techniques. Q How does the insulation come into what you have just told me about? A _It doesn't -- it was not at ail involved in that i i three-year period. ^ Q I see. Okay. I misunderstood something that , you said, then. I am sorry. So that the high-temperature insulation and so on comes after September of 1969; is that correct? i 1 A Y e s. . ' Okav 1 CLC unaerstanc you. SAUCERS. GALE 5 RUSSELL Cvr-.':. r;c:; PRODUCED JM -83 MT-PWHD-015920 / r> 20 So that during this period from November 1 66 to eptember '53, did you have anything to do with asbestos at 11? A Q` . Ve ry little in that period of time. To the extent t hat you did have something to do ith asbestos, what connect ion did you have something to do with it in? A Only in that there are some filters in water treatment -- certain wate3 treatment systems that are composed, partially, at least, of asbestos. n'X This is water treatment systems for -- A Propulsion plants. n<K -- cooling and things? . A Right. Q Hot drinking water? A No. Q Where did you go after you left the Naval Snip Engineering Center in the chemistry and toxicology section in September of 1969? A Well, I continued to work for the Ship Engineering Center, and I worked for another unit. n n a as that t? ! i SANbERS. GALE i PUSS'LL C.fr:::i v c : i v r- c Kc: rr:cr> PRODUCED JM - 83 MT-PWHD-015921 r n n CX A That was called the coatings unit. Q How long were youwith the coatings unit of the Naval Ship Engineering Center? A Another three years, approximately, from '69 -- September '69 to October '72. 0 '.-'as the coatings unit another section or unit that was concerned with preparation of specifications and standards of one sort or another? A Yes. ; Q Did you have a title or position in the coatings unit? . A Materials engineer. Q I suppose that the coatings unit had a boss of some sort? Did it? A. Yes. Q V/hat was his title? A His title was supervisory engineer, I believe. Q Who was that during the time that you were with the coatings unit? A It was Mr. Ed .Morganstearn. Q Did you report directly to Mr. Morganstearn, or was there some interned;ate level between you and Mr. SANDERS. GiLcI S RUSSELL 1Corn::.-. S ' c r v r ; <. ; r: t r PRODUCED JM-83 MT-PWHD-015922 22 r................... ............................................................................................................................................................ Mo mans team? (D <D n I re ported to Mr. Mo rgans te am. n'A, As a mat erial s en gin we r o you a supervisor, eople unde r you, or not 0 A ' No, I was not Q How many peop le w ther e in the coatings unit approxir.at ely ? . A About six cr seven. 3 Including additional materials engineers? 0 V/hat kind of materials were you involved v,Tith while you were in the coatings unit? A Insulation materials. . Q Exclusively? A '.veil, primarily. Q V'hat else? A Some of the materials served as both insulation and ablative materials. Q I don't know what ablative means. A Ablative is a material which peels off upon exposure to a good deal of heat, thereby absorbing heat. Q Did you have a predecessor as materials engines: PRODUCED JU -83 MT-PWHD-015923 r 23 in the coatings unit concerned with insulation materials? A Yes. 0 Who was your predecessor? A Tom Pugielissi, P-u-g-i-e-l-i-s-s-i. Q ` How long had he been a materials engineer concerned with insulation materials, approximately? A To my knowledge, about three years. Q Had he had apredecessor? A Yes. Q Who was that? A I believe it was Bob Seith. Q How long had he been in that position? A I don't know. Q A long time or a short time? A I don't know. n What 'were your duties as a materials engineer in the coatings unit, concerned with insulation materials? A To try to maintain optimum insulation materials for use on board Naval ships. Q Is this insulation for piping alone,-or is it also insulation for machinery and also electrical insulation? zs msu..w. or p a.p lr*j i* SA\'DZRS. GAL I & RUSSELL C crn : i : c r i * * \ ~ c i\ c i r; t r produced - 83 MT-PWHD-015924 r n r not electrical. Q Did you say hull? A Hull insulation, right, the hull of a ship and the walls or bulkheads of the ship. Q '..'hen you speak of -- A Ceilings, floors. Thermal insulation ana acoustical insulation, as opposed to electrical. Q I take it, when you are speaking of, as you have, hull insulation, decks anq ceilings and bulkheads -- A Right. Q -- that this is, in a sense, insulation similar to building insulation; is that correct? A That's correct. Q I suppose that, when you went into this position in September 1969, there were already existing military standards for many different kinds of insulation; is that correct? A There were standards, yes. Q Is that an area that you had had any familiarity with before you went into this position? MR. LEVY: You mean the standards area or the insulation area, or both? PRODUCED JM-83 MT-PWHD-015925 r~ r r 25 MR. JELL-Y: The area of insulation stanaaras. so. MR. ELLIS: Can I ask for another i clarification? Are you using "stanaaras" in the ' strict sense of the military standard or a ' generic sense which includes specifications as well? | MR. JELIsEY: Me are talking about military standards. MR. ELLIS: There is a technical sense of ' military standards which does not include military specifications. I wondered which sense you were using the phrase in. In other words, , military specifications are distinct from military standards. I wondered whether you were using the term to include military specifics-' i 'i tions or not. MR. JELLEY: Let's find out what Mr. Murad 1 meant 3Y MR. JELLEY: .t the time that vou cams into this oosition in PRODUCED JM - 83 MT-PWHD-015926 25 September 1569, bid you know anything about insulation and the military standards and specifications that were connected with insulation? A No. ' q ' '..'ere you brought into this position, to your knowledge for a specific reason, because of some specific expertise that you had, or simply because they needed a sue cess or to hr. Pugielissi? A They needed a -successor. Q At the time that you went into this position, in September of 1963, was there already underway seme program to reduce or get rid of asbestos in insulation? - A Yes. Q Do you know when that got underway? A Not exactly, no. Q Approximately? A Yes. . Q When? A About the fall of '3. com: Q Is that something that you had known about the t of even before vou went with the coatings unit? 1 es. PRODUCED JM - 83 MT-PWHD-015927 r r r 27 How had you learned of the com;mencement of that the fall of 1365? Mr. Ed Cher obrier came by and asked me if I had ked with any asbestos in any of the work that I was doing at that time. Q ivho v;as Hr. Cherobrier at that t ime ? a ;" -L -- 3 he worked in the chemist ry and unit. Q Did he tell y^u v;hy he was asking you if you had any knowledge in that area? A Yes. He -- yes, he did. Q V.'hat did he say? A He said he was trying to determine where asbestos was used on board ship and to what extent . Q Has the coatings unit in the chemistry and toxicology section? A No. Q Did he tell you why he was trying to determine where asbestos was used aboard ship? A He said there has been -- there 'was some high- level Navy interest in determining this. sxa ne se.i yoi / d O high-level Navy SANXnRS. GALE a RUS2ELL C cr d > * c :* r v r i* k c: - ft c r' produced JM - 83 MT-PWHD-015928 23 Interest in determining that? A There was an article in one of the papers, The Mew York Times or The Washington Post -- I've forgotten ' which -- that spoke so the alleged dangers of asbestos. . Q Is that the first time that you had ever heard that there might be dangers in connection with asbestos? I A Y e s. ; Q Had you seen the article in the Times or the Post? A No. * : Q Were you able to help Hr. Chercbrier with the information that he was looking for? : i ' A Oh, I told him that we used a small amount of ; asbestos filters in some of our cooling treatments. Q Did he say anything to suggest that the Navy was ; going to try to get rid of asbestos in any way at that time? A At that time, I don't know. ! Q Was he the head of the chemistry and toxicology unit at that point? ' : i ! M* VtiC Q Did he have a title of some sort? A Yes. ; i : >'< h 3. u W 2. S -L u SA\DERS. GALE a RUSSELL C c r t i:: `> : c ; ; v r c k c: : c r * PRODUCED JM - 83 a A^ MT-PWHD-015929 29 A 1 think it was chemical engineer. It may have been materials engineer. Q Did he say that there were others 'who were also trying to find out the various places where asbestos was used aboard ships? A I don't know. Q Is this just one conversation that you had with Mr. Cherobrier about this subject, or a series? A Well, he askeq me officially one time, and from time to time he might mention it unofficially, you knew, just informal conversation. Q Did you gather that this was his job at that point, to try to ferret out all the places that asbestos was being used, or did he have other duties as well? A It was his job, and he had other duties. Q This is the fall of 1968 that we are talking about? A Yes. ' Q Aside from the conversation with Mr. Cherobrier -' in the fall of 1963 and the informal or casual talks on the subject that you may have had with him thereafter, was that i sort of all there was to your involvement with questions SAUCERS. GALE & RUSSELL L cr::;: v c r *>* y p c c ; . r I e r * JM - 83 MT-PWHD-015930 AO about asbestos until you moved into the coatings unit in September of 19^9? . A Yes. Q During this year or sobetween your conversation with Mr. Cherobrier and your moving into the coatings unit, did you become aware in any other way of what the Navy was doing about eliminating or reducing asbestos? A No. Anything I learned was conversations with either Cherobrier or someiof the people he had working with him. Q Who were they? A Ke had some peoplefrom NavalShipEngineer Center, Philadelphia division, tasked to work with him, and I don't remember -- I don't remember their names. Q Do you remember any of their names? A One guy was -- his first name was -- I believe was Morty, but I don't remember his last name. Q Were these people who came down from Philadelphia to Washington to work on this, or were doing it in Phila delphia? A They were primarily doing it in Philadelphia. Occasionally they would visit. S-W.'Dir.S. GALE a F'JSSELL MT-PWHD-015931 r r~ 31 Q V.rhat activities of the Naval Ship Engineering Center v,rent on in Philadelphia? A 'Well, the Philadelphia division of Naval Ship Engineering Center dealt with snip machinery, mainly propulsion plants. Q l,'hen you v:ent into the coatings unit in September of 1959, how did you go about learning about insulation? A I read some of the specs; I referred to a few reference bocks, talked tcs my predecessor, talked to other people v;ho dealt with asbestos and its use -- net Just -- I'm sorry, I meant to say insulation and its use. Q Is this other people in the Navy? ' A Yes, and outside the Navy, both in and out of the Navy. Q What other parts of the Navy, other than your coatings unit , had something to do with insulation? A People that actually applied it; for example, the piping section, the boiler section, refrigeration. .' Q Was there also a section thst dealt with hull Insulation? A No, no other one, other than us, as I recall. Q 'When you speak of the piping section and zhe SANDERS. GALE & RUSSELL ( cv: W ypo Re;" PRODUCED JU - 83 MT-PWHD-015932 r. n r 32 boiler section and the refrigeration section, these are sections of what? A Well, all of those three were a part of ship machinery division, I believe it was called. In the Navy we use -- the Navy uses codes, c-o-d-e-s, to designate the various offices, and ail of those three were in 61^0. n This is ail* part of Center; is t hat c orrect ? A Yes , that's correct Q Were they also, iik standards and specifications? A Y e s. /J ' Q But they were concerned with other things as well? A Yes. Q What ? A Sure. They were -- dealt with the operation of the equipment. Q 'When you took over this position in September of 1969, did you find that your predecessor had been in the process of dealing in some way with the elimination of asbestos? A There had teen some work. There had been some produced JM - 83 MT-PWHD-015933 r -.... n r~ 33 work along these lines, yes. Q V.'hat work had there been? A Well, as I mentioned, Cherobrier had looked into the places and extent of use of asbestos in the Navy, and he was continuing to do this, and with the over -- I learned later -- with the overall goal of trying to reduce the amount of asbestos that was actually -- the places where it was used and the amount that was used in those places where it must continue to be useid. Q When you went to the coatings unit in September of 1569, didyou learn that Cherobrier was apparently the person who was looking for asbestos use throughout the Navy and that was his job and not someone eise's job? A It was primarily his job for Naval ships. Q Someone else was concerned with aircraft, and I suppose someone else was concerned with building construction; is that right? I don't know, Q V/here did you fit into this picture of the overall goal of reducing or eliminating asbestos? A Well, I was asked to work in conjunction with Cherobrier In this overall jot. There was a great deal more SANDERS. GALE & RL'SSELL C '.t : : n m y p <_ i< ;-r r: a ;y r#! r! MT-PWHD-015934 to the overall insulation Job than just asbestos. Q V.'hat other things were involved? A One of the biggest items was flame-retardancy , fire hazards connected with organic insulating materials. Q 1 What are organic -- . A Well, such things as polyurethane, polystyrene, that kind of thing. That incorporated -- that particular job of looking into the fire hazards incorporated more than just insulating materials. It also incorporated paints and certain kinds of fabric materials. Q Which I suonose were also considered coatings; is that correct? A Yes, you could look at them that way. Q So that asbestos and the elimination of asbestos was just one of some problems that you were dealing with; is that correct? A Yes. Q Was there any order of priority that you had in dealing with these problems, such as asbestos and fi e hazards with organic insulations, things of that sort? A I had no formal order of priorities, no. O SANDERS. GALE A RUSSELL C *: r 11 !i. v: >: c " o * v ; c t\ c : PRODUCED JM - 83 MT-PWHD-015935 r r n A Well, there are always informal priorities. They change from time to time, depending on the pressures you . receive from higher-ups. Q During the three years that you were -with the ,, coatings unit, from. September of 1969 to October of '72, did the priority of the asbestos problem vary? , i i ' A Yes, it varied from time to time. Q Tell me, during that period of time, how it varied, so far as its ups and dowqs are concerned. > A I don't know if I can answer that question. It varied based on pressures that had to do with other insula ting materials but had nothing to do with asbestos. For example, the one that I already cited was the fire hazard of insulation materials. Another one was the problem -- we were having problems with hull insulation. Many of the people in the field wanted to use another -- a technique for fastening hull insulation that we didn't agree with. They made all kinds of -- people in the field that were applying the hull insulation made all kind of claims that it was difficult to cut, and so on. I mean, we had a myriad of problems that came up, anc , depending ont he p^es: SANDERS. GALE r RUSSELL C >: \ : \ N c r ' v r c j\ l : v .* PRODUCEI J MT-PWHD-015936 r people higher than I am, than I was at that tine and still am, we had to react to it. V.'as there some time during this three-year span that you were in coatings when the pressure to do something ; about asbestos became great? A V.'ell, I was told about that problem when I first took over the job. As a matter of fact, I think that was -- as I recall, that was the first meeting that you had involving insulation, hadito do with asbestos. So it 'was always considered important, but I.wasn't working on it constantly. Q I take it seme of these other problems were more important from time to time? A From time to time they had to be. V/hen there was a fire on board a ship and it had to do with an insulating material, then certainly I was one of the people that was involved in .it. Q V.'hat kind of material was being used as hull insulation during the three years you were with the coatings division? A For surface shins we used fiberglass. For suemarmes we usee a foam rueber. SAUCERS. GALE & RUSSELL C ' : c --'t v ; : I'. vr.; MT-PWHD-015937 37 Q In.addition to the hull insulation Installation problems that you referred to, the asbestos problem and the fire hazard with organic insulations problem, were there any other problems that you had during the three years that you were with coatings? . A Ch, sure. Sure. We had a lot of problems. A number of problems that dealt with refrigeration compartments. Had a project going for protection of jet blast deflectors from the high temperature _and high velocity of the F14 -- of the Fi^, extremely high temperatures and high velocity from the exhaust of the Fl^ when it v;as taking off from an aircraft carrier. We had to protect -- without the kind of coating that we developed, the jet blast deflectors which protect the personnel and equipment on board an aircraft carrier would have been melted. You could use them once and -- the jet blast deflector is as big as this room, so it was an important job, I think. Q Any other problems? ' A Well, there were a lot of little problems that came up, with all kinds of antisweat materials. That was basically -- all the other -- the acoustical problems -- we './ere always dealing with hi jh noise levels. We started to SANDERS. GALE & RUSSELL t Vc:>r nopuceo JM-83 MT-PWHD-015938 r L- jo get involved with the extremely high temperatures in the fire rooms, some of which went up to a hundred forty, a hundred fifty degrees, Fahrenheit. It was almost -- it was very not from time to time. . Q' All of these subjects that we have been talking about, that were under your cognizance when you were with the coatings division -- did they all involve the need to either revise existing standards and specifications or create new ones, things of that sort? A They didn't all involve that, no. They included that as appropriate, yes. Q What I an trying to find out, Mr. Murad, is this: Were you in charge of trying to develop materials to solve problems, or were you merely, in a sense, making decision s on standards and specifications and doing the oaperwork? " A Well, a little of both. Really, the way you phrase the question, it is impossible to answer. i I i Q I take it, maybe, then, fr on. what you have just said to me, that, if a problem arose, such as the one with the jet blast deflectors that you were telling us about, you had concern in one way or another to f l-*l)i-ut C*>* ,,.d-- w yr, ^* d d^ v i- k- v4- I i PRODUCED JM - 83 MT-PWHD-015939 n n 39 would involve a problem; is that correct? A That's true. 3 Now did you go about finding materials to solve problems? A' '' That specific case, we tasked Puget Sound Naval Shipyard to survey the field and determine whether there was any kind of existing material that would satisfy the require ments that we set for it. V/e set them for it based on information we received fr.om carrier-type desk and the Naval t Ship Engineering Center, interface with the aircraft carrier type desk, as it was called at that time, and we worked with NAVAIR, Naval Air Engineering Center, or Naval Air Systems Command. V/e also, by the way, worked with Naval Air Engineering Center, but that's another part of it. V/e then tested those materials that were -- or we saw to it that those materials that were selected were tested on a small scale, a pilot scale, and a full scale. V/e worked with a variety of different people at different places to do it. I don't know if you want to take the time here to break it down. That's how v/e worked that particular one. O ~~ c? * ~ -- os -- r- c 1 f P ''2V '/hN Hoduced Jut-83 MT-PWHD-015940 r r n of materials? A That's cr.s way to do it. . Q Tell .oie another way. A Another way is to get inforr.ation from industry ' and work -with then to -- and with the existing engineering and testing organisations -- to cone up with materials; for i ` example, the American Society For Testing 4 Materials. : A good deal of it has to do with the funds that are availat le to do the j ob. In the case of deflector, v:e were allocated funds; we were people at M ava.1 Ship Systems Command. In the others, we wer e not given funds, so w e tried t could, depending on -- obviously, if you have money to pay people to do a Job, the job gets done better -- o Fasi an _ _ -- than if you have to do it with no funds. MR. NOVJIwSKI: Would this be a good time to take a break? MR. JELLEY: Sure. - MR. MOWIWSKI: About five minutes. (A recess was taken from 11:09 a.m. until j. 1: j. 9 .. i `-ELL MT-PWHD-015941 rw i(o :' .."l * s/ < w* Tv -L Off the record (Discussion o the record) nv .= t iiO'.O : 5 Mr. Murad, you have explained to us your early conversation with Mr. Cherobrier concerning ohe asbestos ' - ii substitution rrcgrav or -attempts . Did you receive any written material from him concerning asbestos arid health at any , -I -o *> ::ot that I recall --. r,5*jf rs r; va As 1 said earlier, I may have read that newspaper article that seer.ed to kick this whole thing off, but I don't re.".enter v;nen - reac it or even if i did read ' I certainly re .venter talking about it, hearing about it. Q You remember it being brought to your attention? A It was brought to rr.y attention, yes. Q There was the lives, The Mev; York Tir.es article? A It was either the Tives or the Post. ' Q Or The V.'ashlngtcn Post? A One or the ether. ' 0 It concerned the Seiikoff work? A Yes. ri, r.HV6 VOX feVrSI' 5-6fi 5 COC'-.'.-T: - , Sj.-'V produced JM - 83 MT-PWHD-015942 n-- 41 BY MR. JELLEY: . Q Mr. Murad, before we broke briefly, we were talking about the problem of jet blast deflectors and how a problem of that sort got solved. ' I understand from what you have said that you were in a posit ion,with respect to the solution of the problem, that might be spoken of as ; i \ coordinator.Is that an accurate characterisation? j A For some jobs, yes. i : .' i Q In other word^, information about the problem came! in to you from the field in one way or another; you set information-gathering processes into motion in one way or ; I ; another and got that information, and tried to fit the : problem and possible solutions together; is that correct? A Yes. , I Q V.'ho, then, was the decision-makerwith respect to a possible solution to a problem? else? V/as that you or someone ! Mr. LEVY: Are we talking generally now, or are we talking about the blasting -- MR.Jr,LLuY: We are talking generally. - A Generally, Iwould just recommend. ; i i i j Q To? ^I c 6 ?us-r"L produced c'r ; ' 'M - 83 : MT-PWHD-015943 r n n 12 ' To my bosses. nrX Then are you saying that, in a sense, the decision would be made at some level of the Navy Ship Engineering Center? W A ' Perhaps. It night be made at the Naval Ship I Engineering Center or sore other place. ! Q Higher, in other words? : A Y e s. ; Q Turning fror t^he general to the more specific, one of the problems that you were dealing with while you v/ere > in the coatings division was this question of asbestos. . Correct? A Yes. Q What, as you understood it, during the three years that you were there, was the problem, if you will, that you v/ere trying to solve? ' A We were trying to reduce the amount of asbestos . used on board Navy ships for insulation purposes. i ; Q The reason that that was a problem was what? A We were told that there was allegations made that it was a hazard. . ; Q Do I correctly assume that you did not get G`-L 2. b'JSSiLL ODUCfD T- 83 MT-PWHD-015944 r-- n F' 43 involved in the investigation of those allegations in any way' A Yes, you are correct in assuming that. Q So that, for your purposes, you accepted it as a problem and v/ent about trying to solve it; is that correct? A Basically, that's right. Q Was this a problem that ran throughout the ships part of the wavy _ or was just confined to one kind of ships, like submarines? A All ships. ' . n Do you know whether the problem and efforts to a solution went beyond ships, to aircraft as well? A I don't know. - IS 0 V.'hat about structures, buildings, things of that so: t? A . I don't know that,either. Q In other words, you were just concerned with shi ps, and you did not deal with any of the other parts? A That's right, yes. Q v;as the problem the same in submarines as it was surface ships, or was there a different problem, different in degree or in kind? A The objective was the same. PRODUCED JM- 83 MT-PWHD-015945 r______ n r" 19 Q Was the problem the same? MR. JE1LEY: That is withdrawn. That is not a good question. Q At the time that we are talking about, from the fall of 1969 to the fall of '72, when you were with the coatings division, you, of course, had a number of military standards that called for asbestos for various insulation purposes; isn't that true? A The only -- as I recall, there was just the one standard. Q Maybe I am using my language incorrectly. Is it military specifications? Is that the terminology? A There are specs and there are standards. Q What is the difference? A Specification identifies a particular material. A standard gives procedures on how you use that material, how the material is applied. Q Specifications are these things with MIL spec numbers, and so on; is that correct? A They have MIL spec numbers, yes. . Q All right, let me ask a different question, then. At the time that you were with she coatings produced JM - 83 MT-PWHD-015946 r n n division, from'the fail of 1963 to the fall of '72, you had a number of different military specifications for insulation used aboard ships that called for asbestos. Is that correct? MR. HOWIMSKI: Excuse me. Counsel. do you mean, "called for asbestos"? What . I 1 HR. JELLEY: That required the use of ! asbestos. ' A Here again, the specification identifies the ; i : characteristics. We usec^ mainly performance specifications, - called forthe performance ofa -- theperformance : characteristics of thematerial. That's what the ' soecification does; it describes the oerformance that the '* material -- of that material. Q So that the specifications,or most of the specifications that you were dealing with for insulation on ships, were performance specifications that required material that did particular things but didn't necessarily call for asbestos. A Is that correct? Didn't necessarily -- yes, that's right. Q Why, when you were trying to reduce the amount of asbestos aboard ships, didn't you just revise the military soecificatior.s for insulation so as to oroviue that asbestos Sntrm GVlE a RUSSELL PRODUCED JM - 83 MT-PWHD-015947 r n r 146 was net to be used? A Based on -- we didn't know of any materials that would do the job. Q Other than asbestos? : A ' That's right. I Q 56 that, even though the military specifications for insulation aboard ships might not call for asbestos by name, there was no other material that you knew of at the > time that net the performance requirements of those specifications; isthat correct? ! A Yes. Again, asbestos is used for high-temperature insulation. ; Q Yes. We are not talking about hull insulation, I suppose, here; are we? A Wo. No. ' ' : i Q Because there you were primarily using fiberglass aboard surface vessels and foam rubber on submarines; is that : correct? ': A Right. Q How did you go about solving this problem of finding materials that would meet, the performance require ments of the military specifications for shipooard insulation 0-LE a R'JEScLL MT-PWHD-015948 but would not contain asbestos? A V.fe tried to learn of materials that had lesser amounts of asbestos that would still do the jo'o--or better, of no asbestos, and still do the job -- from industrial sources. 0 What kind of orogress did you make with that '' problem during the time that you were at the coatings ; l division? A I'm not sure if I can answer that question, what j ! j kind of progress. ( 0 Were you able to, during that three-year period, ( solve the problem, so that by the time you left the coatings division in the fall of 1972 you had managed to find all nonasbestos materials, or was the problem still pending? A We were not able to find all nonasbestos- containing materials that would do the job for high- ! j i : temperature insulation at that time. j Q Had you solved any part of the problem by then? ' .i A. We were able to reduce the amount of asbestos in ' some of the high-temperature insulation materials. : Q Which materials?' ; nA Some of the catting materials, some of the pipe Z ion .aterials, boiler insulation materials. PRODUCED JM - 83 MT-PWHD-015949 r r r n ' Did these partial solutions, if you will, involve finding other materials that v;ere just as good as asbestos, or did they involve reducing the performance requirements? A We had to maintain the performance requirements. Q ' So you are saying that you did not reduce the performance requirements in the specifications; is that correct? A Right. Q In addition tq going out to industry for help in solving this problem, did you have any studies of any sort done within the Navy to help solve the problem? A 'We used a -- toward the very end of the time period that I was involved, we had a task going in California on board a ship to determine whether a non asbestos, high-temperature insulation material could do the job of asbestos-containing material. Q Is that the only task, as you put it, that was being done within the Davy during your time in this position? A To my knowledge, yes. Q Did there ever come a time within the three years that you were ir. the coatings division where, to your knowledge, any studies "were acne to determine whether cr not cm Lb PRODUCED -83 MT-PWHD-015950 r ko thi s was r sally a problem in t he first place? A I don' t knot;. n During y o \x ^ n ree years in the coatings division, wa s here any ques tioning, to your knowledge, going on in the Nav y as 'to whether reducti on o r elimination of asbestos was r*9 2. 11 y nec essary, after al I ? A I don't knew. Q Do I correctly assume, then, that during that three-year period your mission to reduce or eliminate asbestos aboard ship remained a constant mission? A Yes. Q But the priority of it varied from time to time; is that correct? A As I explained earlier, yes. Q In addition to the quest for substitute materials that you have told us about, did you get involved In any way with methods of handling asbestos, either in new installation or ripping out of old installations? A Yes. Q In what way were you Involved in those matters? A I was a party to writing an instruction, citing the oroce cures to be useu ..hen. w or king vitn as castes. PRODUCED JM-83 MT-PWHD-015951 r n n Q I take It that, when you say that you were a party,' maybe there were others involved as well? A Yes. ; 0 yours? A Were those others from different disciplinesthan ; i i j Some. j Q What kinds of people were involved in the writing ' of this instruction? ' i i A A man from WARSHIPS, code 07, which they are ! concerned with shipyard resources, were involved. There were people -- Ed Cherobrier was involved; people in the ' safety area of NAVSHIPS -- NAVSEC, rather -- wTere involved, ; as I recall. ! Q Any other types? A That's all -- I think that's it. Q NAVSHIPS A The first one that you mentioned was code 07 of NAVSHIPS is -- Naval -- well, at that time it was called Naval Ships Systems Command. Q This is the old BUSHIPS? A Well, it is one of the derivatives of the old BY3HIFS, yes. PRODUCED JM - 83 MT-PWHD-015952 r n r Dx V.'hat is code 07? A They are concerned with shipyard resources, both the equipment and manpower. Q This is just h'avai shipyards or -- A 1 Yes -- Q -- commerci ai ones also? A -- yes, IVaval shipyard. T hat's what they wer concerne d v.'ith at that t ime . Q V.'hat input were the code 07 people bringing to bear on this problem? A Well, they- were drafting th e instruction. Q V.'hen you say that they were concerned with or involved with shipyard resources, what kind of resources are you talking about? A Manpower and equipment. Q V/ere they concerned with the question of whether or not the shipyards would be able to carry out the new procedures? A Y e s. - Q You said Mr. Cherotrier was involved. V.'hat was his involvement at this time? i . w A d ,J A W X t * l with the man from 07. GALE L PRODUCED JM-83 MT-PWHD-015953 r n n 52 P, '..'ho was the can from 07? Jerry Crawford. i'.n. .,'ouid you spell that, please A ilL Crawford, C-r-a-w-f-o-r-d, believe. 5Y MR. J rr r ~V Who were the safety people '0~ '.aviiC wr.o were involved? A Larry Farina. ; MA7SEC is the -- A Naval Ship Engineering Center. 3 How did you, in connection with this -writing of an instruction for procedures when working with asbestos, know, if you did know, what the field practices were and -what problems there might be in making changes in those practices? A It was based on a survey that was done by Naval ngi 1n*'&--o- --r---* * rr Center, Philadelphia division. Q What survey is that? A That was done in connect! on with the work that Cherobrier was doing with Philadelphia division. Q Is this some kind of a written survey' f-u.'AZ.* . GALE L ''LiSSELL ]UB: ' &J- vv MT-PWHD-015954 r r r Pi A I ddoonn''t knowv;. Cherobrler had been working with the people at Philadelphia to determine the extent and -- where and to what extent the asbestos was used on board ship and also to determine how best to'work with it, how to keep : .i asbestos fibers to a minimum in the atmosphere, or environment, I should say- I -1 Q 'That kind of a survey had Philadelphia done? A They had gone to the naval shipyards to determine these things that I just Mentioned. : 3 Just the Naval shipyards? , A I don' t kr.cv:. . Q was your instruction giving procedures when working with asbestos to be applicable not only to Naval shipyards but also to commercial shipyards working on Navy ; contracts? A I think there was going to be a NA.VSillPS I , instruction, and I believe -- I don't remember. I don't . remember what the distribution was. 3 V.'hat was the number of that instruction v;hen it came out? ! A I don't remember that. 'his survey that was done by Philadelphia SA-X C; ::: gal: & russgll roduced ' - 83 MT-PWHD-015955 r n r you had spoken about -- had that begun prior to the tine you moved over to the coatings division? A Yes. Q Had that begun back in the fail of 1553, when Mr. Cher'obrier spoke with you about asbestos? A Yes, I believe so. . Q V.'as it underway prior to that time, of the fall of 1963? A no. Q Did this project of 'writing an instruction giving procedures for working with asbestos get completed during the time that you were with the coatings division?' A Yes. ' Q An instruction v;as issued; is that correct? A Yes. . j i Q Is that the only involvement that you had,while you were with the.coatings division, that dealt with the way asbestos was used, either in new construction or ripouts, as opposed to dealing with asbestos as a material and substitutes for it? A Ho. . Q How else were you involved? - in;. _zr. ; 11 o * r f i PRODUCED JM - 83 MT-PWHD-015956 r r~ c^ A So,metine later I visited a few shipyards to see how well they were adhering to that instruction. Q 'Which shipyards? A Boston, Portsmouth, Norfolk and Charleston. Q Any other involvement with how asbestos was actually used in the field, as opposed to asbestos as a material, while you were with the coatings division? A Not that I recall offhand, no. Q During the thhee years that you were with the coatings division, was there someone that you thought of as being the person in charge of this problem of reducin g or eliminating asbestos? . A 'Well , Cherobrier was -- and myself -- were involved, certainly; and, of course, our mutual bosses. Q Did either of your bosses have direct and continuing involvement, or were they involved merely because they were the supervisors? A Well, that's a difficult question to answer, because they were the supervisors, and, as such, they were directly involved. Q But you and Cherobrier were doing the work? A Yes. Yes. MT-PWHD-015957 =c J 'J Q V'ho was your boss during those three years? You have to Id rr,e, I think, already, but I have forgotten. A Yes. My immediate boss was Ed Morganstearn. Q Cherobrier's boss was? A Prank Lovell. n During the three years that you were in coatings, did Cherobr ier stay in the same position that he had been in before you moved over to coatings? A Yes Q V.'hv was he involved in such a leading positio in t his asbestos problem? A I don't know. Q Mas there something about his background that made him somehow specially fit for the asbestos program. or what? You do not know? A His background, I believe, was as a chemist. He had a chemistry background. If that made him specially fit, I don't know. n *v While you were over in coatings, what did he do dif ferer. !y from what you did on asbestos? H He 'wasn't as much involved in the actual writing of the s ecificaticns He -was involved in -- got involved ! t PRODUCED JU-83 MT-PWHD-015958 r n 57 with contractors, you know, the manufacturers and suppliers, to gather information; and 1 would, too. He continued to v;ork 'with their residual tasks involved with the survey that had been done previously by the Philadelphia people, continued to work on the specifications. There was no clear-cut set of steps that he 'would do or 1 would do. o A Mo. 3 Is he retired ^.or 'working for someone else? A He is retired, as far as I know. I don't know if he's working for someone else or not. Q Is he still in the 'Washington area? A I don't know. Q Did he retire during the time that you were with coatings cr did he -- . A Mo. 3 Sometime thereafter? A Sometime thereafter. Q That did you do after you left the coatings division in the fall of 1972? A 'lent to work for Haval Ships Systems Command. PRODUCED JM - 8$ MT-PWHD-015959 r- r r A Called ITIS 5. ITi2. u changed to r-o >* 2. p p o *' 2 5. u W 2. S Did you co.ntinu asbestos, or did your assignment change when you made that move? Q '.'hat did you have concern with thereafter? Q Design services, all occasion. fe coordinate: the design and engineering v;ork associated with the fleet modernisation program. Q 'fas this a promotion for you? fhy aid you leave the coatings unit' .H Again, a little bit more management experience, but it primarily was to be closer to where I worked. Q You were replaced by-Mr. finer, was it? A fell, he took over seme aspects of the job, yes Q 'fho took over the unfinished business that you left behind when you left the job? A 'fell, 'finer took ever the work on asbestos. GALE a r;L'EfELL 4% ! 1A S- -S *r*i- -jji . o, e *" V-, f;|: MT-PWHD-015960 r* r r A And Cherobrier continued to work with him. And then the ether insulation 'work fell into people who were dealing with plastics, rubber, that kind of thing. I think V.'iner also took, over some of the hull insulation, fiberglass. Q' At the time you left, was there a reorganization of the unit that you were with or -- i ; A No. . Q After you left the coatings division, was that the end of your association with asbestos and itsproblems? A Yes. ' \ Who was Mr. Birnbaum? A Mr. Sirnbaun was second-level supervision. He was Ed Morganstearn's boss, and he was Frank Lovell's boss. Q V.'hat was his title? j A I think that was a section head. Q During the time that you were in the coatings unit or at any other time that you were working for the Navy, you involved ,A. -4U th anly organizations or associations w in any way in vo ved with this asbestos pro's lev.? rAt Yes. I V/ 3. S ne of the Navy representatives on- r.eri can Socie 4- . ,, 7? w v* * 1 esting i Materials. 1 produced JM-83 MT-PWHD-015961 r~ n r 60 Materials ? A AST!-! is a group of people who work in industry and government on all kinds of materials that are used in construction, shipbuilding, throughout industry. They set the -- certain standards, mutually agreed upon standards and testing procedures. They have a variety of -- a large number of sections. I was in the insulation section, I believe. Q Was that just ^during the time that you were in coatinrs that yc were in the --------- v es . That's the only time I was a Mavy rep. them when I v:a s in v;ater treatment,, be- i~ water treat":ent sectior.. ou the only ilavy rep to the insulation section of the ASTM during the time that you were in the coatings unit? A I don't know. Q Any other organisations or associations that you were involved with that had anything to do with asbestos? A V/ell, involved in that I was involved with MIMA, to the extent that we interfaced with MIMA. Matio.nal Insulation Manufacturers Association I believe is the name, PRODUCED Jim-83 MT-PWHD-015962 r r r 61 MI'-'A. V.'e used to clear many of our specifications with them to make sure that the kind of performance requirements we set forth v.'ere, in fact, attainable. Q You said that your predecessor in your job was 'Ar. Pugielissi? A Right. 3 Is he st ill v: 11h the Navy? A Yes. Q What is his *D*CsitiOn at this poin n He's in the air condi tic.ning unit This is A Also Naval Ship Engineering Center. Q You said his predecessor was Bob Seith. Is he still with the Navy? A I don't know. Q Do you even know him? A Yes, I know who he is. Q When did you last see or hear of him? Oh, gee, a tout >-.ugust of '72. 'Was he still with the Navy then? Yes . PRODUCED JM -83 MT-PWHD-015963 r n A At that tine he was with havai Ships -- no, wait, ho, he was with Laval Ship Engineering; Center. MR. LOV.'ILSKI: It is twelve o'clock. Mould this be a conveniens place for you to break? EH. JELLEY: Yes, it probably is, but let me ask one or two more questions. Q hr. Murad, in connection with this deposition today, the notice of deposition asked you to produce a rather extensive array of documents. Have you brought anything with you in connection with that notice of deposition? A no. ' Q V.'hy not? A I don't have anything. MR. JELLEY: Mow we might as v:ell break. . (A recess was taken for luncheon at 12:04 o'clock o.m.) . r PRODUCED JM - 83 MT-PWHD-015964 r O r v?tzr:;oo:; R AD resumed and testifies Ji."v further as -fellows: , ~. f *J-- \ 1 Mr. Murad, v.' ere t ai kin ro * ust before lunc n about th e i tens listed in the no *- -f c e of your deposition > and y o u s aid th at you had not r o u CH any thi ng with you tod ay o e c a u se non e of the it eras cXiS o d. * 5 that correct? That I den T +v. have an. J of s/ * i aw items. r'. o. You do not ha ve th A T1 J.-L -t-* _L ; ^. *w- '*~t V. *id~. *U- i-L s , of cours o w 3 o e c ause you ar e n o ion ge rl">> wer kin g for the h'avy dp i*-*i d inste ad are working fc r t he Ai r Fc rce . 3 4 * s that correct? A rr > ~ f _ _ i . d V *2 yes } w iiu *Is- I s W ^. . i U. e Also because, o ven if I v,r r e v; orking for the *'avy a V ny las t job, it would n * 4u- have any thi ng to do vi th the v: or /U. -L V a s doing previous to that. 3 Because th es e thin gs p e r t a in ed to the time th at you v; ere v;i th the coat ins s uni t j an e y ou v:ere last there 4 n 1G7 2? r\ That's rig no . *.C.. V3 *!- a ; ; 1 ^ ELL PRODUCED JM-83 MT-PWHD-015965 r r r MR. JEllui: I have no further questions. ' V-'O ~ ?r Q Mr. Murad, my name is "Fred Christie, and I reoresent V/estinghouse nlectric. I have just one or tv;c questions. Insofar as your task was to try and reduce or eliminate asbestos from insulation purposes aboard Mavy ships, did you atter.pt to rer.cve .11 asbestos, if possible? V.'as that the goal of the program? hi Well, first of all, I'r. not sure I'' ' v;as a program, per se, but that was an objective to -- there 'was no stated program. Vie -would do this, but that would be the ideal; that -would be the ultimate, yes. Q My point is, insofar as asbestos is utilized in some electrical applications, rather than pure, per se, in insulation applications, did you make any efforts to try and reduce or eliminate asbestos from electrical ccmoonents as well -- A I didn't get involved in that, no. Z V.'as there somebody else, to your knowledge, that was -- produced JM - 83 MT-PWHD-015966 r r r -5 I don't know. .o ) r*cj .3 your task was concerned, it was United to insulation r.aterials A Thermal insulation materials, that's right. n Would you put asbestos-containing gaskets in the thermal insulation category? . A k'o, because the purpose of insulation is to reduce the flow of heat. Q So can I take dt from your answer that, insofar as astes tos-containing ga skets were used aboard k'avy ships, . your job v*as not to try a cd find a substitute for those asbestos gaskets? r Yes, you are Q I am correct? A You are right MR. CKR TIE: I have no ether questions Thank you, ssiir. 5Y MR. KEkiJY : Q V.r. Murad, apparently your period of activity insofar as asbestos is concerned OpC to '72? A That's correct. produced JM -83 MT-PWHD-015967 r n r -o' ' You ssDp ok! e of beins a co-author or cart author oi instructions or. wor; . 1- n a - 1 I was a Q In what A ' hell, t: tiroes before it act' v;as involved in upd, sion or last couple /*\ Could y< was signed out. provided? n I can g n<v The sub A -- as t Yes . A Esser.t i asbestos fib ers in to reduce th e char.c breathing in or ing fibers might be in we, first of all, w< supposed to wet dew: .pout with a fin water spray. * .GU ' resoirators . * r.er pi'crn i **$ ij a.? MT-PWHD-015968 CT\ r r n was no s mowing permits ed curl ng tn o ip out of asbestos. 7]" ar W ^ s ~-- asoestos vas to be -- th e insu lation that was on pipes was to be cut off, u sing 3. S pecial kind of shears 3 as oppos ed to just rip ping it out by hand. The air was t 0 be monit cred for asbes tos con tent of a cert ain size, between 5 and 50 microns. Ev ery sc often -- I' ve forgotten what the interval was -- there was a c er tai n t hresho la lim.it above *t' V-> 5 Q V-i was not perr.i tt ed. V.'hat Q se ? Clothes were to be special -- laundered i n a tpe cial way , outs ide of the -- of ail, the workers ;o be -- to have snecial :lothir.~ on, overalls and gloves. ne: I do not want to interrupt you in ycur answer, but this probably may help refresh you. I will shew you this and ask you whether or not this is a copy of the ~'= instruction that you are testifying at; now and that you have testified to earlier. Mr. LEVY: V.'hich one is it? V.rhat is the nur.ter? VO *r\\:T\Tqv have been nanaeu a copy o; MAVSHlFIhaT 5101.25, dated February wane ycur time ana loo/, it over. PRODUCED JM-83 MT-PWHD-015969 CX\ .( r... r r Look this over. HE. lr7Y: For tne r sc ora, is in sane one that v;as rear deposition as Exhibit HR. KELLY: La - i. 9 MR. SC EV.'AETZ : Off the record. (Discussion off A Yes, I believe; this i ;he one. This is the one ry. This is the one that have been talking about V*1 ^ *"' Q At. it-i,iJb i^.. orning and just after ; noon recess; right? A Right. That was the distribu >n? I'm just interested to se e v.-hat the distribution real /*\ > It would appear as if divis ions o f the Levy; did it not * Lell, it went to quit divisions was on it. Okay. 4 vn 4*& HR. KnLLY: Could I have this narkec HR. SCHV'ARTZ : Off the record . (Discussion off the record) (Cod*/ *3 r; Z P 3 Z' C TM 12 v . 2 o 3 c.s.t^ci MT-PWHD-015970 r r r c. 1971, consisting of nine pages , v;as market. Defendants' (yurad) Da kit identification, as of this date.) Q Dow, sir, showing you Defendants' (hurad) Exhibit 1 for identificatior. and asking if perhaps you might refresh ,, w w. wou_a . -- I . tU Lr o know v;hat cart of that particular instruction v;as your contribution. A 'r^ 1II, as I sai-d earlier, this was 'ted several times, and I simply v:ent ever it once or tv;ice to make sure up-to-date as of the -- it came out _- T _* -n "ow 'W- U. u.d of '71, so I just brought it up-to-date the last one or two tines around. Q For how long a period was this study in the works? A The study that resulted in this? Q Yes. A I knov/ it started in the latter part of -- in the fall of '63. I don't knov; when it ended. Q You indicated that it involved work by several different individuals, including yourself? A I was sort of a party to it. excuse me -J MT-PWHD-015971 r- n n 70 talking about the instruction or the study? MR. KERRY: The study. A (Continuing) The study was carried out, really, by Ed Cherotrier. He was the coordinator for it; he was leading it. The people at Philadelphia, at the Naval Ship Engineering Center, Philadelphia division, actually did the work. . I believe Ed Cherobrier 'went along with then to az least sene of the Naval shipyards. C In connection t.with the -work, I would like to know a little tit about the mechanics. You say that Mr. Cherobrier supervised the work; right? ' a More or less, yes. And there were individuals working under him -- Q -- who were directed to go cut and visit certain shipyards with certain objectives in mind; is that correct? A Yes . o Re re i-v No, n. You, <1 n ,'l,ov ) /*\ y-MM a nj?:PLi . : : <. r JWS, MT-PWHD-015972 r n r I- '/as there a file, to your knowledge, made up with 'e~ard to that survey work? A I don't know. 3 You do not know v;hether or net there was a file :eot on 'this? This is before it became a h'avai ship Instruct ion. excuse me , *r. :.enny you talking about the study 'L'iidb' oud.-.'u.wC Z. "1 fall of 1965 -- MR. MO'.'IMSKI: - - or are you talking aboui the instruction you are holding in your hand? :-:H. KE:i:;Y : I gather that, you know, the study antedated the instruction and the instruction constitutes what came out of the 5 l/Uu'v , Is that correct, hr. Murad? Yes, the study was used as part of this, that's u id su. - oc I am. talking about the study, sir. 'j. ;;ave . uircvv To your A. 1 ccr; t PRODUCED JM + 83 MT-PWHD-015973 r n n there v:as A ver a file that c oncerned its elf solely with th o oo *V* *U*, '-* J* * *V" "* 35. Is was co mrr.sncsd in 1958? r*. :;c, : don't reca Wilt. _ j ust can't answer y directly, b ecause I car.'t re call it spec ? r* c ' ' r? n Do yo u know what shipyards w ere involved in connscoi on wJ the study? ra. V/ol 1 certainly Philadelphia , and I know they went to sev eral y arcs. I'm not a hundr sd csncsnc suns ii n s v,r snt 4. o all the havai; s hipyards or net. They did go to t o vp <=> >* ^ - *. c.r >-* o `..'hen you say '1 se veral," sir -- ' A s v s n ai i.aVEi 3 n ipyards. ''s-s. the actua Drawl ng on your memory , v/ n a ^ do you recall as to o .. j ^ j d^ -5 S^ u .V.a^ ^u f^* V* ey went to? /*. I don 't know. '-4 Do you know wnet her or not t hey went to any contract V a s 9 na, ho. ho, I dor.' *k-s - VtO.i i 4w- know if they went t 0 them or r.ct. 3 'here you in attendance at any meetings, at the ine that these studies v;ere going on, in which PRODUCED JM -83 MT-PWHD-015974 r r r in any r.eetir.r.3 per se, no ~ Cherobr * er r\ ~ r> rC* Vh- ~u--t Khe was doing this .n zr.at. anew :ou correct u am an error, ..r. auraa, yc. Q p V O P ^ 1 p ^ .n your ces ^irony hat this MATSHI? instruction, 5100.26, v:as actually a revision of earlier HAVSHI? instructions? ..o. -L s sayinn was it was a revised draft, the hadn't beer; signed out but it had been .ines, and prior 00 actuaij.'.V O -- G, . i .1 cnanneo :an vou recall when v/as initially dv'=r`h; sir? A I don't know- with accuracy when it was. Q Could you approximate,, estimate? A Say a few months would be my guess. That's a guess, really. Q That v:ould have been the initial instruction, then, dealing with work practices at i.'avy shipyards? A Mo, it wouldn't ce the initial instruction. That's the only instruction. That would be the initial work - ip*3.0 V.'cLS V; P:6 n v;OX' rl V;35 1;'. ^ OP* U.T'3- w3Ti. PRODUCED JM -83 MT-PWHD-015975 Lo r n r 79 Q But prior to February 1971, to you have any knowledge that the United States i'avy had any instructions v.-hatsoever, prior to that, on v;ork practices in Uavy ship yards, treating with asbestos? A I don't knov.-. ` Q Did you, yourself, ever have occasion to look at any prior UAVSKIPS instructions or material, data, pertaining to work practices in Uavy shipyards prior to this MAYSHI? instruction of February 1^71? ` A I don't -- no. 3 You indicated that during this period of tine you, yourself, had occasion to visit sorts of the shipyards to examine the work practices? A After that instruction came out, yes. 3 You mean after it became effective as of February 1971? A Q Yes. You indicated that you visited Boston, Potsmouth, Norfolk and Charleston? A Yes, right. Q V.'ith regard to your visit to"crfoikshipyard, v/as that in 1971? PRODUCED JM - 83 MT-PWHD-015976 r r n A It was either late in ''71 or early in Tell rr.e: That type of an exaninat i on did vou rake? HR . HOTIHSKI: Do not answer that. He is not (~oin,^ to answer any questions inspections of Hava! shipyards. HR * V-i c HR. HOTIHSKI: Total lack of any relevancy to the subject; natter of this action. HR. KEHHY: That is no pars of the stipulation that has been entered into here. I near. I do not see how you can play the role of fudge Blunenfeld, ruling on the relevancy of a query, where the stipulation is that all objections excest as to form are reserved for the tine of t rial * HR. HOT tj. ,,> 4r *qJ Tv Ti. : They certainly are reserved, but t hat is, in r.y j augment -- MR . yrxw HY: Certainly, the kne wied-e -- MR. HOT IHSKI : Excuse me, Hr. Kenny. The reservati on o t"* ^ **n o objections dees no t foreclose j - hen new. PRODUCED JM - 83 MT-PWHD-015977 r n 76 This witness need not answer any questions, under the Federal Rules, that are so totally Foreign to the relevancy of the subject matter oF this action as those, and v;e are net going to waste our time sitting here doing it. MR. KENNY: In other words, you are not prepared to observe this stipulation that you Followed heretofore? Mr. 3rov,*n, will you mark that down, because I think we ought to get a ruling From Judge Blunenfeid on that. ' Are you saying now that any query that I put to this gentleman as to any visits that he has made to any shipyards with regard to whether or not Naval chip Instruction 51C.6 is being properly executed is irrelevant to any issue that is in the pending action? MR. NOMINIKI: I assume you mean NAV5HIPS instruction 513? .2b, and, ifr* ~ - aJ s one case, that is my pcsctaon MR. MOHEn: Just so I understand this, are VOU pTOin.v 30 GctV v.'iat W 6 C3.r*nQC 3.3/1 a IV/ C U`3r 3 -- C n 5 PRODUCED JM - 83 MT-PWHD-015978 Il concerning his examination of other shipyards? MR. iJ0Wi:;s?:i: .'.'aval shipyards, for C*N purposes cf compliance v;ith MAVSHIPIMZT plCC.2 MR. KEMNY: ;,:q M X d. x u. Joe, before you Just for the record, I disagree with your position, Peter, completely, and also, in this case. Judge Rlumenfeld, Lth regard to another defendant, has,- endorsed a motion indicating that counsel cannon cure: to ar.sv:e: questions based cn relevancy. 1 have net seen such an oraer -- MR. COYNE: I an looking for it for you. MO ''IN SKI: -- or been made a oarty to any proceed"Ings leading up tc such an order and GO not feel bound by any such order. MR. MOHnR: I think that order that he is '"o ' r, - to, Peter, is a deposition 'which you attended, and out of that deposition came a Court oraer. s _ is ox j y . j r * o' PRODUCED JM - 83 MT-PWHD-015979 73 am av.-are of or v:as a party to. :IR. I'OHER: I think it v:as the Arnatex deposition, and the direct - MR. KOklKSKI: Actually, I air. surprised I never had notice of proceedings leading up to such an order. MR. MCKEE: Off the record for a second. (Discussion off the record) MR. M0H3E: All right, sack on the record, MR. ' T/-v .* * n * KAVSKI? instruction 513C.25, '!r. kcwinski , I an. coins to ask this gentleman about his visits to any of these Mavy shipyards and as to hi observations curing these visits. .vhat as you: MR. IIOV'IMSKI: Mr. Kenny, he has told you he visited three naval shipyards f.or a purpose of having to do with h'AVOHIPS instruction 5100.26 , and I an not going to pern.it hir. to answer any c.uestions about the results of those inspections. If he n.ade other inspections, I will consider * * ra '.-1 ^ r o: 7 PRODUCED- - - - - - - - JM-83 MT-PWHD-015980 r n r' me. ke:;:iy: a:i right DY ;v . Mr hurad 3 -- 2.5 t o Rcrfolk _ ' 1 of 1-- 0>7I 1-- ' A Is that correct? 7'h e latter cart >f '71 visit V.'hat did your examination consist of? MR. MOMIMSRI: Do not answer the question. Hew long did your examination last? you are going co * ' r1 c ' ' o this -- am. MR. iJOV.'inSKI: -- we are not going to remain. i I have tcicyou what my position on it is. . MR. KERRY: I am sorry, Mr. Howinski. For the record, I am going to pursue it, and I see no reason 'why you are going to be able to hand cuff me i r. r e gar d t o our suing i t -- - . MR. MG'.vIHSKI: Kenny, may - mane -- MR. KERRY: -- and, if you want to off ar.c wain cue of here, that is your PRODUCED JM - 83 MT-PWHD-015981 VO r r r 33 prerogative. MR. ROKIRSKI: . Kenny, if I migh inue the depositio want to terminate Leoosition now to cs Blunenfeld, that is your choice; hut pie ase do not make us sit here just to n 0q - - v>o ^ o to instruct the nan over and ov er to refuse to answer questions about these specific inspections which I have told you he is not going to answer questions about. MR. SCHV.'ARTZ: Peter, doesn't Mr. Kenny have to raise the question? Unless you are willing to -- MR. KERRY: Let's not get into academics here. I am going to pursue the examine tion in my own light. MR. SCHV.'ARTZ : Off th e record. (Discussion off the re cord) T 7r,?''V '.'J 1 1 *- VH - encompass, *i.* i RTowinski, any conversations wnic h he nac prior to ..or* auk cr any otner snicyarus ... - i. V. SANDERS. GALE a RUSSELL Crt --r- vpt i; i-: -r r.. PRODUCED JM - 83 MT-PWHD-015982 r n r regard to preparing himself in readiness for the exami.naticn, any conversations which he had at the respect. in-oj ^4 uo * _ w. * ci * * y either gove: or nong_ overnment? In other words , anything pertaining to any steps whatsoever toward preparing for the trip, making the trip, the results of the trip, recommendations of the trip, any communications, oral or written, in the wake of the t^ip or trips ; that is what you are objecting to because it relates to the MAVGHI? instruction that is * -- - ] O U i. Cl Vr S 2_ c. p MR. MOV.TMSKI: basically, that is a fair statement cf my position. MR. K ;Y: All right, statement o r.y query? I mean, I am net attempting to diagram the question, but I am merely say ing does it parap .cr&ss . MR . MO'-.'Ik'GKI : I am willing to concede that* i those are matters t n a t you would like to inquire about that *>">* ...J r* *>- ions4 */-> ** . O .* . * W V to the wit::ess do not SAWDERS GALE & RUSSELL L ?: i i: i ' c r: o! v [. k : c r' r r s produced J#1-83 MT-PWHD-015983 r MR. Kih'MY : I have been properly muzzled. MR. LEVY: I do not understand the ground, the xenai ground for ..ne objection. i.n . It is on the record, don't think that does ar.y- .r.k is says anything. . am .nrcuss. r r' Q I have a fe; questions, Mr. Murad. Mhe.n you in 9ot '.ere involved in the Marin: ana mvc.vea m tr.e :iuiu processing lac. involved v;ith submarine atmosphere3 , was ascestcs one oi tr.e tr.in; that was touched upon, even though it may not have been a problem at the time? ..o 1 *1*, So th e brea \ ' at that t ime , as far as VI i O ir*\ L> ne crew 0: a submarine ! asbestos concent in the l A That! ' 0 * -- cj * j involved in. 0 Do vo u Know coni ni fy 1 w,*2 0 V <5 r * r; ? A *- U ^ --** ^. SANDERS. GALE & RUSSELL Certified Sterotype Reporters jI & fiw I. MT-PWHD-015984 r. r n .jo, I ccn't know. .-.as Wi.*---. w CL * * V ether branch c: :e government, to which night have teen involved. in othe: phases cf the atmosphere and breathing air aboard a \or>i ri e> * Not that I knew of at that time, and I den ;nank since. V'hao is the oasis for the ccr.mer.t t r*a t you have just mad e, that you don' t 'del 1 9 V 9 s. t t n l u t* T A or since -- A ::o, i say : d i c r.' t kr. cw of an y at t _ i. time, and I don't think so even si *-> r> sa ** hat time . A. At the ..aval Ship s En gineerin m Cent er, you were dealing with water treat tents sys terns and clari c',. *U - 4 4c-*: chemical s of one sort or anot her, and, as I und er s tand it, asbestos 'was used in some of the filtering tnat was cone at that tine? A Yes. Q Could you give us an example of where an asbestos filter might have been used? ' A As I recall -- I may be wrong, but, as I recall, it was in the water treatment of boiler water, just to filter out anv oarticulate matter that might be there. PRODUCED JM - 83 MT-PWHD-015985 r 3d /-% ' V/ere those changeable filters, cr woul d that require re.neral overha ul of the vess el? A Hy memory is - litt18 tad here, but -- because we did.n t 4U-* work with them much, hut I believe they were in a housing. Q V/hich could be changed by the crew? A That I don't know. Might have to -- the ship night have to come into a shipyard. I really don't know. h V.'hen you indicated you cane into the coating unit in 1969 and there v;ere six or seven employees in that unit, did that include secretarial staff? A There v;as no secretary in that unit. There was a secretary for the section. The section was made up of the two units. One was the coatings; the other was the chemistry and toxicology unit. , Q However, -within that unit, you were the basic person involved in an effort to reduce the amount of asbestos aboard Havai ships? A Tell, again, along wish Td Cherobrier. Q './as he within that unit? A He -was in the chemistry and toxicology unit. TiO V.' 3i 5 .r* Ot- IT* tTiS COciC!.r.u3 L 3 o w. S- . 1 . produced JM-83 MT-PWHD-015986 n 1969 Wo , he was not. V.'hat osrcentane of your tirru 'ro.Ti Sopter.ber of Q I 19/2 v;culd you have been involve dealing v;ith the asbestos aboard shits? I don't know. 0 :ou nav o ran*- i >ned baffles on aircraft carriers, and you v;ere involved in other projects. Would it be a small percentage of your tine, a large percentage? .in , : What is the tending Ques tion? 7Tdr VI^'ZuS * T:cvr t ^ I si (The pending question v:as read.)' MR, WOWIMSEI: 'Would what be? ,-in , i-.On j. o :niAi Why don't you read the oreceding Question. (The record v:as read.) MR. MONTSTREAM: You are right, Peter; il is a caa question. T3TT* * * . Q Concerning yourself with the asbestos aboard ships, as the area of inquiry, would that have beer, a sou ***' ca ^ 3 -u oour WOOOCfD JU - 83 MT-PWHD-015987 CO r~ - r n percentage of tine? "3. MOV'! HSKI : Excuse me, no: \`i OU J.C let him estimate the oercentage of time if he could. He has already said he can r*rmnu e a-T*,c ;her oroblem have v.'ith your question is I do not know what a large percentage or a small percentage is. ' MR. K0HT3TRSAK: I am prepared tc accept his versions and definitions. I would like to have some expression. MR. HOV.'IMSMI: I will allow him to estimate, if he can, the mime he devoted to those ;s matters. MR. MQHTS7REAM: Thank you. Weil, if it is just a go ess or an estimate, I'd say in the neignoornooa c. mayce i to 15 perc er.t , in that area. ._ Q Do you know 'whether Mr. Cherobrier would have scent more or .ess me than you in the same project? don't knew his oercentage of time. first come to you and ask cyuesticns -- -- r\ * r\ \ ' r JfflPRODUCED ** 33 MT-PWHD-015988 n- r r A ''o 1, it v;as in the fall of '63. '.'here v;as that? A Th3 t v:3 v:hen I v;as at Ship Engineerin' Cer. " .r> ^ Did he identify any of the so-called high-1 e vel pers el v.' no v;sre an tens si ed in the asbestos prob lev. ? r\ lot by nar.e , no. H e said sore adr.arals; s C~o ' 3. 2. 3 r'S Vi a r\ Did he identify ther, by title? A - ::o. just the rank. And that rank v;as? -> -- irals. <y I s that a plural on that? Yes Did he indicate the date of the article tha -w W- : C^L ~ ^ A G. Vs in r"'u e lev; York Yir.es cr The V.'ashington Post? A ;;o. but at as sr.or^ ly be fore he asked the icn . He didn't give r.e the exact date. - Did you ever see tha v c* w .n Y e s - vn -- *r V, o v* n o v.* j r* I actually sav; t he article or not. I inly he and about it, and I ~ did 1 ^ v"i aW .n4 , > j. -- i s t - o best ar.s'..'er 1 can rive you. produced JM -83 MT-PWHD-015989 r r r <0 r, h1 indicate th at he vs study to re duce as n ' 3 Ir.it ia Yes. 0 V/ den d drr.oression . I'm conelusicn. n: o M O Q A The in Did he already on such an t'l Do, no r\ rA.>U*\ U* i"I u"l Vo* tpt 0. K* Did he Again, a s o e s t o s v.: a s used 0 ''hat w. that was an volved O.* wo n V.'ell, I no; that was just r.y :ave cons 133 v;ith you what he felt the goal recall, it v;as to determine where ird ship and to what extent. ;r understanding of the health hazard it initial conversation -- r' -- per w w Ci i . o> MT-PWHD-015990 r r r~ '.veil, according to what d - ^ _ w ^ Ct ^ r- l> - hd v was -- that addressed work by Dr. Selikoff , in :' & ' i 'S'. . *o.~ d- u. Can you oe ire scecifie as to what vcu believed the health hazard night have beer? i o o y~. a Question was his understanding of what the health nazara was . Ana he uiu not ansv;e: luestior. specifically, sc, rather than r?ns it, I an coring at it again. MR. MOV.'IMSKI: You are asking now for us belief as to what the health hazard was? MR. MCMTSTRDAM: Yes.- !: I will not allow hin to answer that . s got absolutely no four.daticn- at least you have laid none--to nake his belief resardins the health hazards iu relevant. MR. M0M7S*REAM: Your objection is notec :an he answer tr.e cuestzor.? .-.a. PRODUCED JM-83 MT-PWHD-015991 ro r .-.n ;o ansv/er: J a re vcu carectanc ni" not r the time you went to the co^ri:~3 unit, you you read seme specifications and also some hooks. Can you tell us what the books were that you made reference tc? V/e-i , * e> * o ** o nr-c"* ep icc as . was -- I recall -- I referred to O'* ca . r.e ex; to ;h thermau ansuxatacn. casaca.-; c. X a. 'here mav have been one o: .`O sooxs an t. cacrary c: thermal insulation. ust went -- useu tr.em as ^ne occasions arose, more as an encyclopedia than anything exse, as a reference cook, I didn't actually read the v* fh i o ;n:ng. C. Did these references have anything to do with the health hazard of asbestos exposure in them, or 'were they n '1 >* O , ' T . - 1 * 4- _ y-type specifications of temperature controx/ n ..o, tr.e ones a was -- -r.at v> O ? .3 >* v d -i dc with thermal insulation properties, nc* nlvli n or v/: 9 0S, C6T S 9 , J U 3 ti 7T.C- .. . ---- -- o wvwr. : PRODUCED JM - 83 MT-PWHD-015992 r r n .her than pipe insulation, was there any r* r-i o 1 .^03 Q1 ;os reduction th: v o u v; Oe r p 1 'f : ` " - ""a-l --- J ac- ' 1 hi.qn-tenperaturc insulation, net just cn pipes; or. the entire propulsion systert. "or example, the _ boiler required asbestos insulation. } Q Taht was an asbestos - A series cl All parts of she boiler. Of course, there's a in the boiler, but -- as part of =>r`--- j u* w w . i a * are other carts of the boiler -- the crus ana sc cn -- tht: .so very not. - ` = fro- v*: ' .u_-s c: the submarine contain ar.v asbestos? ,.o, . d it ^ n - .ass insulation used within the hull ieo wit n any as cestos ? ,<o. think question may have been askea, a: lease :ncu.; users is nr tcaay ? -- .=> -- 1 ' ^ c- ` a s a e o , out knov: where he lives. -o yc; `.'as last associa` PRODUCED JM-83 MT-PWHD-015993 r r n ho , he v.-as -- to my knowledge , he never :orkea --V * ^ ^ V- ^ ri verged at the ..avai uhio ^mr.eer ur.r: Center m tr.e ..asnunyton area, anc v:r.en , o >* a - - *- ,,t, r still working there, you know. . res.. Prior to issuing the WAV; instruction 51CC.25, had you visited any shipyards? A Yes, I had visited shipyards prior to that. P Prior to the issuance of that instruction, had you visited any shipyards ,-with regard to viewing problems with asbestos? con ' t oe_ i avo -r ^ O' n you naa, v;cuia tn-ore ze a 105 or i - e s an tr.0 department to confirm or disaffirm whether your activity in this project - A We of tentime wrote trip reports. Whether they 'Would you have kept copies of trip reports? I, personally, didn't, no, not since I've lef there, y c u kr. o >;. mean -- ail my :i!es were _e: r ^ c. & Q Did you maintain for your own interest, convenience and education a oersonal file at home concerning C.. . . i W d* t . i rd v , .'."T d...CiU JM -83 MT-PWHD-015994 r i_, c. you s. tr s. r.. ime maintain a crivate file at . o. :her than the M, are ycu a member of any other association as an viouaj. -- professional associa- tier." icnrer. .C i1- -1i. ) - :.or o: lie, I'm net a member of any organisation r.ov;. C In the p ast , hav e you beer, a member of any professional orranisatiens? . v,es. _I v:as a member of the American Chemical Society for a few years. I may have joined the Society of Chemical Engineers one year. I'm net sure if I even joined Q Do you recall the approximate years that you ;i~ht have been a member of the American Chemical Society A Ch, in the 'oj's, '63 to maybe '65 or so. 5 And the Society of Chemical Engineers? hell, if I were a member there, it probably was * C. T C* ~ 1 * is ji .1 *' 'w* 1/ 4 t w ^ A4fV MT-PWHD-015995 r r r 0 Is there such a thing as a deficiency report :or.cerning asbestos control in shipbuilding, to your kao: J XV - bait a minute. V.'cuid you reao each tne question. (The pending question was read.) MR . irjVi'iiiC.'.i ; excuse me a minute (Di icussior. off the record) SIR. MOHEHSKI: You can answer. no . o my iznovne; .s tnere a: for somethin;: that minht be so consioerec? .ot to my xncwie; ''3 77 I have nothins: further Thank you. MR. MOHER; Peter, may I assume that I a: Kenny from UHAECO, v;ith respect to inquiries along these lines, that you instructed the v.'itness not -- My problem v;ith those * c* ;c to any one individual, produced Jm - $3 MT-PWHD-015996 r r n but, rather, to the subject natter. MR. EL1IZ: If you v.'ouid ancver than for anvbcdv, vcu would answer then for Joe. .ssure fror. vcur cements ;hat I will be restricted in asking similar cues- y.P.. MCMIK3KI: I won' t allow the witness to answer questions along same areas Kenny tried tq inquire into. MR. MjHPR: Peter, I v;i 11 be very happy to EC through the same line of qu a..: u ^ O G` O is oreserve my ri ~r. i ^ V V U< w "udge and met an orcer to r.av t* o /** z. s arr.e tions on behalf of the K. K. Porte: -ns Southern Asbestos Company. That is the only concern of my inquiry, to save time. MR. MOV.TMSKI : Pair enough. MR. MOKIR: Mr. Mo wins Mi , did you bring any documents v;ith you along tM .ines that we asked for in the notice to take deposition? he notice soecifically refer MT-PWHD-015997 r-- n n ' briny any dec u.-.ent 3 ? y.n , Me. I an not aware of th a v * ^ ^ <3 ^ C 0 cf any document s that fit the descrip- bion in y our notice cf de position. Mr. Mf:;ro . Mr. Murad , I an yoir.y to hand ycu three document 3 and ask ycu if ycu 'would re view them and tell me if you ca:1 identify t hose documents. :-'R . MOMf R: V.'hiie Mr. Murad is reviewing t hcss coo 'sA tr S ^ ** H p can explcre v;ith ycu, Peter, if your anov/er veu "ci d' !*, c 9 r A^.,"\>j +1. O1" .ni ^ n- uaiification of Chose documents beinr in the po ssession and ccr. trol of Mr. Murad. Ycu indicated that you did net know of the existence cf any cf those documents that were specifica Ily reoyuested. As I remember the recuest, it asked for dec uments that would be in the ca re, custody and control of Mr. Murad, s.r:d we s.r e ail aware of t he fact that he has c hanged hi s job from the t nitec d_>t-3.u.s3 ..avy vC r.ir ;'crcs. i *. r* ft v o _. zj >-* o MT-PWHD-015998 r r i hnov.-lsdge of these documents, other than the r i o ^ it they he in his possession, or HR. IvDV;i'!5KI: I an r.ot sure I understand your question, because Mr. Murad has changed jobs and now words for the Air "ore e. He has neither the custody, care, possession nor control of any documents that would come within the descriptions 1 through 6 in your notice. And each of those specific descriptions refers to documents in his custody. r.R . jiur. UAC-ud^n^ ^ ^*ic.. vho, are no longer in his custody, do you have those .hr . i J 'i 1 n . u* O you mean does the ment have document s arisin g from and/or d to health nsKS allegedly arising from re t o asbestos? V- ^ V"> -- .*O. i v;ouia suspe; .he occumen' has some such documents. produced `-83 MT-PWHD-015999 r r r ;ring those with you tomorrow? MR. : Mo, I am afraid I cannot do t ha t, documents. You have noticed the depositions of several government witnesses, with similar requests for documents, and we will respond to those as best we are able. MR. MOH^R: That was the purpose. ao not /.now if we are playing _ V.C.O C. O hv -- . for the documents that he would have had in his possession while he was engaged wish the United States navy. You are telling us that you have no knowledge of the existence of those documents that he had while he was in the United States wavy, while he was a member of this coating section. MR. MO'.'.'IMSKI: have made no search to attempt to identify documents that he might haw had in his custody when he worked for the M'aval Sea Engineering Center, and I don't know how I a w v w w .... . produced Mi - 83 MT-PWHD-016000 r n n Off the record t^7> Ais- c, ussicn off the record) A 0 he y . Q In response to questioning from Mr. Jeliey, you indicated that you did a revision of sene military specifica tions. Is that correct? A V.'ell, it v.-as the job to try to keep -- try to maintain them, keep them up-to-date, vrith v:hat was available Q :'ou indicated that there were tv;o types c. speci fications. One was a performance specification. '..'hat did you mean by "a performance specification"? A V.'eil, performance specification primarily addresses the requirements that should be met by the material being described in the spec. 0 V.'ere there some military specifications that would have called for one or more product that could have met that specification cith resoect to performance? 'emetines they did; sometimes they didr.' didn't describe v:hat a -- v.'hat the other type of -- bes: rm n c - i r;a . r.ara'Z wer.s - .cs of th: PRODUCED JM -83 MT-PWHD-016001 \() r r r 100 -,'r.e exact ccc; o 3 i r i or; of the material. k'cw. :-<i r a cross between the two, 30 tha' you'd have a specification that cea.it with the per:crnance of the material and also addressed a part of the composition. Q 'with respect to those specifications that called for the characteristic of the material, there v:as no substitution with respect to those military specifications of product; v;as there? A hot as far as i-- the scec would describe what was vhese three documents that you a a a a cr.ance to uooh at -- cou^c you icencify the iccru, crease. m A '.-.'ell, this first cns ' Pi r* _ _ ed "Insulation Felt, Therma- , :os characteristic kind, i: 'ect, as you r.evs cescrited .s -- this, I'a say, is a cress oetween f ott Ui.U :act composition, because it dees point v;c .O vps some indication o: wr.a. rives a list of orcr.erties PRODUCED JM -83 MT-PWHD-016002 r* - _C < o tnst ve ze 1CU. st o other material, other than ashes A This ere, the scope ?tavb l- r.e soecr:rcat_on covers ascestos ..a 'isrsfors * d^ i ere v;o no IOS` c a r. ^ pe or ar. c ^ Q V> C~> - * el i '4 ner -here's a a oe: c to O pe - r a e v e r types. It v:ouId have to be asbestos? lou'd have tc have asbestos in it, right. -here is a second document. Can you describe ;r. *p yr\:r 5U :cm: to '.ark that' (Discussion off the record) MR. hCHER: . hark that. PRODUCED JM-83 MT-PWHD-016003 r n r Thermal, Asbestos Tiber," > Si *- pr ; 2 , ccr.si ;e: enfant (*S . . ^ C^. V* n/ t_> ^ T"> " O O ^ CL li# a^te '"tyl'' J ls o: this ua,e. , .ul It is marked Defendant ("urad) Exhibit a Tor identic ica-icr., o * -* -* v' - ~ Could you iden-t-ifcy'v the s=o.-ond 1C"rmummeer nt , please. :com one i: A. . 4 wb.'w r> ^ Ci ^ * ,, v - ,, *. ~ , * t c._u*-* is number is EG-C-CCdbtZ (h'avy .its j . - r.e late is 19 Jure 19t2. Q Could you identify the third document there? A The third one is the -- it is the same -- it is a fcllov;- ;.n of'that seccna one, and it is identified as iZ , ''Interim Amendment - 1 (h'avy Ships)." ;r . -- And that's 1' -'une i'z/* 'j* d. -l v* r* government cr military soecifications ? Either military or federal specs, depending cn . re PJRMOD-U8C3ED MT-PWHD-016004 UJ r r r Z Again, v;hat category do these two specifications fail under? Are they performance spec ifications or are they compound spec ificat ions? A I'd say compound, the way you're using the term "compound,'' a mixture of the characteristic and the performance spec. ' :?H. :!0;;5R: V.'hy don't you mark these. The first one will be 3 ana the next one will be 4 fvPopurp.'y of SS-C-CObooJ, heaueu "biotn, Thread i Tape - Asbestos (wavy Ships)," dated :une 19, ,9t2, consisting of eleven pages, was marnec ^e.encan + rr 1 f(Murad) r.xhibit 3 for identification, as of this date.) (Copy of SS-f-AcoE, headed "Interim Amend U) 'O. VJ I ment - 1 (Tavy Ships) ,"cated June 17, I . sisting of ten pages, was marked Defendants' (Murad) Exhibit b for identification, as of this date.) BY EE. EOHEE: Q V.'ith respect to Defendants' Exhibits 3 and b for ioer.t if ic at ion , in ccrnc eying ;; i t h tnese specifications, coa.a PRODUCED JM -83 MT-PWHD-016005 supplier r.ave sucstitutea seme other type 0. c. n ,,p s tape, other than cloth, thread or tape ccr.tair.in~ asbestos.' _. A ho. there was asbestos in ail these; different amounts, different percentages of asbestos, depending or. th: type. ; o c i o t r. . manoat ea :cr.tain asbestos? V5 a .minute , u:s. nas tests: ito tnat tr.ese scec it 1 cat ions ceserioe assestcs-oea: .here _s no manoat.e that any manufacturer comply v;ilh !!y question is, if a supplier v;ere ccmpiym; v;ath those specifications, did they have to -- A They'd have to meet the specification, of course 0 And the specification calls for some product containing asbestos? A That's v.-hat i " n c* n r" i`cr-es `" *.">* * * ' vn -1 At ;ec cel ere cr.a: scr.e crocecures cea-ir.r -e. -.a-o ;aliatic.n of ir.sulatio: Is that correct' 83PRODUCED AM - MT-PWHD-016006 MT-PWHD-016007 n r it .wouia teii ;r.s rsaaer, aspenainr cr. v/nceve: ,,na- -t.-----, v;ntt set c-f srecifications cculd Le used C4. ^ ^ <dr t_ *_u 5 Just so I understand it correctly, that v.-oulc ill the person hov: to apply the insulation to a certain lit aboard a submarine -- **' uo -r ' ' o*"l --. -- ies. wouiu rave instructions to tnat e*iect, ye s . 1 _ | ^ CL -- C. O _ M LC U - LA w - w. c; i-i ' " T/ ; insulator cr v,* orner ;o remove ascestos insulation aboard ship? A 7i1'a have to see it apam to reiresn my memory. . t aV> Xu t** ^T* i- ^ ^ , ;*i -* 4- ^ 'w* .L fc*' w* w that v;as net the sole sour ce ci i: 'here were ether instruct ions, too; fr* ^ ^ r-. the center of contro hat was p rJ 1 point -- 51-0 pcin u >/ A Jp -- -- .m. .i.i: -- six PRODUCED JM-83 MT-PWHD-016008 0\ r r 7r it had a predecessor? ::o , i acr. t. -.O V *1-- O & f' ^ L< * 1 - " d r, reviewed that one, right. ox V;as this a dccurr.ent that vou reviewed in the :taraticn Tor the standards that you v;ere ir.vc .s this tne stanaara tr.at you oreoared? .-.ait a r.in .s not -- that's not a standard. That's an instruction. m sorry. A Okay? Q Is this an instruction that you prepared, or is this an instruction that you reviewed when you prepared sens other ones? A ho, I reviewed this i tne process o: its preparation. was one of several reviev;ers, in the sane wav that I was one of several reviewers of 769, I-'IL standard 769 and a i . J w - of other dir 0 /** 7* w - 1 i CJ Jan you tell rr.e what other documents you reviewed, besides that if vou car. recall? d. -- . produced JM - 83 MT-PWHD-016009 r r r numbers I'-."e Tomcat en, but they ce c.ns , at least one sta ..ava. Technical Manual. he nay have had hink we had any training cooklets out on Ti 5 U * a v 10 H ater treatment. Tut they centered 2-.. 11 u - * . a w eriai to use and how to use it lan vcu r individuals who shared the position of reviewing these -- A The other people that v;ere involved in this? Q Yes, sir. A Ai Munkrees -- ' Q Y.'iil you spell this, please. A His last name was M-u-n-k-r-e-e-s. (Continuing) -- Joseph Anore, A-n-o-r-e. I'm trying to think who else was involved. Our bosses; my immediate bosses -would sometimes look at them. Q That was Morgans team and Lovel 1? '.'.'ell , Lovell 'was when I -was in water treatment. n j ^ ^ u ,, -- . vas Morganstearn's w v S w Thev r.a - v-v *- " 0 C h rt " ^ - o from, time to time. <-N '..'hen was it -- f\ < ,h -^0 > * ' * Q U U -- U i . as them - -- PRODUCED -83 MT-PWHD-016010 r r v-hen v;as it -,orr. t irr.s W ~ >iav* oyO .-.re you ta_ wing acout ore standard, 759? . I>'0HER: We are talking about the 'eviev: of standard 753 and also the instructions. n change. Well, v.'hen there is something significant to V.'hen there was something sig__ nificant to change. v:e' d reviev; then at that tirr.e. Q What ocsition did hr. W.unkrees hold? .s in tne rising section an :oncernea about piping on boara snip; anc :ourse, many c: tne 1 s nau t o ansuiateo. m one way U + c2i.^- C.: na1 Did this piping section ve a department number? *> Yes, it v;as code 6153, and I've forgotten the aipna cr.aracter that -- I think it V/ S. 3 - _ . p Just generally, could y mJ L*. tell re what their ^ r~< ' Or* *.ias , their purpose? . A *__ i.-`0 3 U. w' -- -- Cl -- -..td 1:.. produced MT-PWHD-016011 r r n -L -- j charge of the piping problems on beard G. fcj . * -- k. )o you knew hcv; long that depart"; x' "tense7 -.as teen in V.'as it there when you were in the coating unit' :es. V.'as it there prior to that time? To my knowledge, it was. I don't know when O ^ ST. UP . ;uite a -- 1 really don't knew ;0 VOU' Know 1 - ny te: nn insula: a' ' A Q Davy? wo , t knew if they did Do you know if they participated in any studies -o. Mr. Munkrees -- is he still in the United Stases Mo, he's not. I oelieve re cic. you r.n; --O -- ' PRODUCED Jtt - 83 MT-PWHD-016012 r r n :,'o , I don't. Mr. Joseph Avers -- do you knew where he is today? The last -- today, no. Tell -- the last I knew o. , he "was i i w . hi severs. hs ano. Do vou know what oositior. he held several ns sro? I think he waq still in the sar.e area, in ccc O) 153 -- I've fc Q u u 01 i .J. 5 think it is, o- -- ' Si " '.'hat was thai - a r' *- O , n?n v;a: refrigeration and -- refrigeration. Do you know what specific position he held in A He was the -- it was either a section or unit, and he was the chief of it. o )o vou know what kind of a fcackr.roand he had? Did he have a chemical background or chemistry cack^rouno? h. :,'o, I don't know. /o yCu /*.ri<cr:v**: ns: ;hat rrouo was formed to revie-. its'o'- - r. JMDU83 MT-PWHD-016013 r~ 2 Generally, anyone v;ho had any kind of involvement .H tf:` act ion, in the use of that instruction, would see it. 5 Did anyone from HOMED have any input in those standards or instructions? A The standards or instructions -- in the instruc tion? Q A '< .n n please ? The instructions. In the instruction, "" o 1 <= i ** r;a 'f d d l) o y o I'Cr* c v. v..no ^ v. ouio have ceer. - rc:n oi.-.n Me worked with Cor;:.a ncer Sam. Earboo . Could you pronounce th.at name again for tie, Earboo? A Barboc, 5-a-r-b-o-o. g 'That is hr. Earboo's background, educational background C' A I don't know. 3 Is he a doctor? /"V I don't k.nov;. 'S Of medicine, I mean. A I really don't know. Do vou know what position he helu with HL.-.kD? PRODUCED JM -83 MT-PWHD-016014 r r --J - - - --------------------------------------------------------------- - 'veil, he was, as I say, a cor.ranae: ; v:as the name of that section? dealt with then on -- _ can't rereroer tne exact -- -r.e nane of his section. ' Q Did you ever discuss with hr. Barboo asbestos an: any aliened health hazards relating to asbestos? 1 1.. W y ;alr:ed to hi.n about the asbestos J i, U vie. W X V/ 4 V/her. did you speak to Mr. Barboo' ;ver a oerics o; ;o nir. was sure when we -- - * p t? r Did these conversations relate to the health .3C 6 C` of installing or removing asbestos insulation aboard smos '.."ell, they reuat ;d to the use of asbestos on board shin. D Did you have formal meetings with . Barboo? A Yes. Q Were they on a regular basis? .jO, as tne -- 'here am n.lnu: notes PRODUCED JM - 83 MT-PWHD-016015 r V-l ^ ^ na: 0 r .5 c r ^!" d - 315 ie: u err... i 10 . D oos: can' v c c. r~ r c. ^ ^_/ w t^r Av- !w1. Ir.r.. rJ\ o "0 ov; :e v:as ca s of h *--* -- cu o c. c O O , io . j.. U u ve a o J ;; 1 . i .3 is a convenient t ims . (A recess vras taken from 2:32 ntil ; vl ::r . i:oher: .3 Mr. Murad, ycu indicated that a group vreuid get tcrether vrhenever there vrere anv significant changes in the ;he n: ' cns--ar.a *. an sceci: ucaUj.7 ciea__nn Leading' ^ m V Ci W w Vi 1 P L j>. _o 0 el dnr>c'^ s t3 -.n >-* *' WOOyCEQ MT-PWHD-016016 r r r er _ _ a crange would be 'n zi v c p v.*cc ; ^tfld and csi'cns dna change ecu. .ssu-ad it would nave to be reviewed and coordinated cn by oeople in other areas, and th'?o a * a c of paper would sirr.ply flow from one desk to another. . i 1 C. w o tv;c or more would pet together and talk about it; nothing to orever.l rut it wasn't a matter cl getting five people together in one room, sitti: v.n an; working cn tr.e piece o: paper. Q Pne individual in cr.e of the departments would determine that a change was necessary, and he 'would prepare draft change in the specification? A That's normally the -way it worked, right. 5 That draft change would then be submitted to other departments that were in some way related to or would be affected by the change? A Rimht. with rescect to as: r.i.sni.a that were going cn board k'avy ships, what departments wouic be involved? . - -vj PRODUCED JM - 83 MT-PWHD-016017 r n n H7 v:a3 the teller people, 515 3 the piping t\ & * of the oeoole from these fourv* r* : ~>i0<ari that a change should te made, tc whom did they go for approval for this change? A They'd have to send it through 120, specifica- Q To you know what procedure would he folicwed dr. 120 with respect so approving or disapproving an;/ such c har.r e ? < A They'd have to send it cut to vgesever else was involved in the government , and, depending or, the kind of document , particularly -- this was almost always true for specification -- they'd send it out to industry, have the crsecifi reviewed by industry to make sure that industry could, * *-> ** p c ^ r- > T tf the kind of material that was described in the spec. To go one step further, the industry people v;cuid pretty such -- cftentir.es 'would initiated - - in a sense 'would initiate a change, in that they -would suggest changes; and, of course, these suggestions were considered 0 You indicated that after the review by 5120 s ore one else in the rovcrnmcr.t 'would be contacted. ..'ho 1: PRODUCED -83 MT-PWHD-016018 r i.t in: a d e o a r t re e n t ? It de "1C 3 01 or c: dec 3 y ou s eco-9 qy V/ -- -- w CL- JHwW *10 c.- w , in r;ht use that spec o or C : cn cructior. csss . Do you knew what department in the govern: V;e 'worked with1 GSA. Other than \D w ."V -- -- ^emetines we o ;;ork vatn tfnno ` ? cthe artmen* >j Lnrir.eering tcmanc. D V.'ith respect to the specifications dealing with asc estes ir.su.at eon as care, kavai ships, 'would any ether governmental deeartrr.ent be involved, ether than the ones vou have alreadv enumerated? hot lor writ: .or. i c; ic.n no cnar. .ve spec u v d j. o-- 0 the DO o *f.(- i; o a r d . MT-PWHD-016019 r n n >>oll ? it -- G---- There's no office, ps *t is mace uo c: ;_e iron .;a I Ship Engineer!: nter. ow : a -- i e c ,i5vsi u e a oy5 i^ppis ^o....nr*G ns, t tins 10 V.'B.5 ..3V3. ,ni: 'sterr.s vernano. ..`here, geograpnicaily, are tney located, m \ o * r____ now they are Loth in 1- , /I V,,, ^ i- a "I j WU* .-.riir.rt; At one tir.e '^aval Ship Engineering Center was C hcv; -.any r.er.ters are there on this board of v' 0 v i s v.* ? ' A V.'eil, there's -- each of the najor directorates in haval Sea Systerr.s Command, as it is called now, has a representative. You'd have Oh 3 UC J 07 I ce iieve would be about four or five people from ..AvSin ano you'd have two o: three people from EAVSZC. you, yourself, ever nans a presentation to in the hopes of ge t U lTij] 2 specification inance adopted? h .e_. 'I 1hi ^ v* PRODUCED JM - 83 MT-PWHD-016020 O) r. r t'iven oreser-iat ionr~seI;o , i aon t rememci Did thev have to do v;ith asbestos insulation products' x con >-> k*ov. have . j. w* w. i w r. no*. C Could you tell ne, in the normal presentation, v;hether that v.'ould be an oral presentation, or would that i a v:ritter. presentation or a combination of both? A A corr.bination'of both. 5 V.'ith respect to these written presentations, as you know if copies of your presentations are kept and maintained? A Mo, I don't know if they are kept and maintains Cell, copies are made. I don't know if they are kept and maintained. You know, I 'would presume so, bu x never worked in that -- in 6110 I presume they do I know they keep pretty good records, in general, but whether they kept and maintained those I don't know. .e you were employe; nitea states Maw ana when vou did make t.aese presentations, did you -.aintai.n or veur aeoartmer.t maintain a ccsv c: me T. ~ hi nO_V-* **> V* v Jc* . i' *1 *^ Ur) TV ^" ^Vl"iU? TV *>4' ~ JT * !M - 83 MT-PWHD-016021 r r n mate; A Yes. The written presentation consisted of the change that I wanted made and any comments that were made 'ey people or. -- who reviewed it . Q V.'hen you -went into this board of review, was this c. c r* rr. 3. n, ^ d a ( ies . Was testimony taken or recorded? There was a secretary. She took notes. V.'ere those notes ever put 'We received a ccov of the \ e s ^ o V. r.a ^ leetinn. which consiaerea se .-3-=! t f-*a*fferent -- normally considered several different specifications, of which I r.ay have had one out of sax or seven. T Do you know if there is a location or place where these minutes are now kept - A No. . 0 -- as a depository, or depository of these aon't know that as a facu 'Was there any appeal from this review board? 'an vou restate that cues tier..' PRODUCED JM-83 MT-PWHD-016022 r r n you had a change that you were i: seedn g accepted and if the o ' o jerci re.] ecteo at, 'was there any other department or individual or group of individuals that could review the decision made by the review board? A h'o. 5 '..'as that the last -- r*t i nV"\2^. V f S J. W ^ ^ 0 Do you know of any other documents, other than the military specification or the federal specificaoions, that deal with asbestos insulation materials? A Could you repeat that again, please? C All right. V.'e know that there are mil that deal with asbestos insulaoion materials, ana v;e xcnov; that there are some government specifications dealing 'with asbestos insulation materials. Are there any other specifications, standards or documents that would relate to asbestos insulation materials, other than those two types, that would determine the type of product, whether it be Ir.ciuiir. " cnr. onz ^ir.on non? JM-83 MT-PWHD-016023 r r don't know of any others,besides military a **- p -- -> & * s . . ij;:_j'i ; Tnanr: you very muc; have r.o further cuestions. hr. Murad, in the course of your testimony .-our time at the harine Znnineerinr 'wd ' ` . 1 Annapolis, you told us a littl . t a c o ut sue rr.arine Mere work. ky recollection is that you testified you interne: v.utn asbestc O UiO ne atmospr.ere; v" cs ~ l Ud } z. ~~ ^ c V - w o' O w >v> > as there some o did have such a concern uCS in t he atmosphere? rt T don't know. Q r. Jelley asked you learned about insulation v:hen you joined the coatings division. You made reference to the fact that you talked to people both in and out of the kavy , and I believe you listed ;he ceoo.e or trs sectJic ~ J you spoke v:ith. p *- o ('*' ^ r. PRODUCED JM-83 MT-PWHD-016024 r r r ; o : i r.: about insulation? A number cf manufacturers ana/or sucoiiers. ccasicnally spoke with people at At that time, when you joined coating, the coat; 4 c J v*' ^i O wi 5 0 PIT J'w )' t i 1 * i \A ^ V ^ N-A Cat kb i nicyarcs Could you tel]; us the shipyards where these --v cu r-- ' a located that you sooke .'ell, most of the .'.'aval shipya: o a o 1 y an of t* o r-. zne o s ric > w r* 2. o J. V.* s 5 -- a u u i* n e lava* shipyards, which are at that ti Portsmouth, Philadelphia, Norfolk, Charleston, Long leach. Hunters Point, Maryland, Puget Sound and Pearl Harbor. Has the: e aciniyv UG rticular individual -- and I am referring to that individual's capacity -- at the shipyards, that you would speak with to find out about insulation? elu. we always spoue, aurr.ost always , witn people in sr.op o' ..U i -> V*. was the insulation department. Did you have occasion to speak with people i: produced 83 MT-PWHD-016025 r n r A Occasionally. Doc often, but occasionally. 0 Do you recall the nar.es of any of those private shipyards? A Speke v:ith D'ewpcrt Dews . I'm trying to think of anv of the others. That's the only one c^n o. :f fhand. 0 Did you ever speak with anyone at the Electric :oat facility in Droton? Dot that reqai-L. 0 Dr. Duradj you have testified or mace reference to an asbestos elimination program. Is there any wricten document that outlines this urogram? not know of. Q That would include any memoranda that might outline the program. You do not know of any such memoranda? A There wasn't any formal program written down when I was involved. Q Do you knew if each Daval shipyard was responsibis for carrying cut an asbestos elimination program? A Dould you repeat that question again, please? 0 Sure. W 4 O 1>/ * * CA O "LL FPS^*e fVtr&yJ ! my 15k * MT-PWHD-016026 r r r your unit working on an asbestos elimination program -- ale the individual yards have their cv;n asbestos elimination r, v, r ~ c o A I don't kncv;. ' 0 '/.'hen you v;ere cuesticned concerning oricrities curing ycu: with the coating division, ycu indicated the orioriti ,,d change as vcu would have oressu; erent higher-ups. las there a particular higher-up, .o use your phrase, which ^wouid exert pressure to move along A hell, of course, my i: . v.*auf .o , ^. immediate boss and his immediate boss, 'were cate in contact with most often. Jo that would be hr. Birnbaum, hr. horgar.stearn -- .mt , and "organs team ' s -- or. limb a urn ' s boss was John Aiders. Of course, the military head was -- first was Captain Ryan and then Commander Omoot .ou_o tni: jressure ce ao: rj ^ o p4 ^ c r's r~* i u rr ? -.0, everything This would include any oressure from Conran: ;t or .--van'.' produceo JM-83 MT-PWHD-016027 r. r r It wcula all be cral O c*7 /> t v*i ~ s4 . -- V- * -------------------------- ;uuu a*i ce ora_. 1 In the course of your testimony concerning th. program, the asbestos elimination program, I believe you stated that you were told allegations had been made that there was a hazard associated with asl ies . V.'ho relayed th,-zse allegation O U U . O * * >-* o inerocrier. n r, o p ry. 'se of your testimony, you also mai; i erenc e to v a a ^ -L urunrw you c a--u 9 c a ^ a s u r. Caiitornua, to aet i nonasbestos products could do th ;c o: asoestos-contaanin~ Droaucts isk, as you called it, carried out in T f Mk vi * v" X ... I*, -- V- V * * * r-- ^ lit* J -k ,*i ^ O . . G. t/ * v/as carneu v ---- '*t?li _ w nur.ters bo you re cal- .n _ _ -eiisve MT-PWHD-016028 r n Do you reca:i f V ; r.a:r.9 3 o: iv inui- .uaas 1 1o ;ryi.n~ to -- . i' V ir''" O :o you recall Icer0 visre oar .cuiar as seat c; :rcducts :r.a: were involves an r hj ee eri C-l -1t a "*,Q !sco3, to determine whether or not it could 1. J -t 1 Cl W -k. w ^ ,1.1,11 hi.-:h-aerr.serature insulation curocses ^O :cerature -- for d O sc on ;inr an: r,e oroou^sacn c*ant. So s oe ; a or i o O'0 Molded pipe insulation, and i sices. You testified concerning a Jerry Crawford : rc: , -rt , ^ * A Was Mr. Crawford located in Washington? i es . Is he still locate: tnat a ,:now of. Do vou hnov; i: he is still with the ..avy' 5 . * ^ w* PRODUCED JM -83 MT-PWHD-016029 r r n Do vou know -- don't know wnere ns 5 wcrwi: :iov; a scut :-.r. '..'as he located in ..ashmgtcn ? He was with HA7SZC, in the V.'ashingtcn area, yes. Is he still with -- Yes, I believe he's still at 6105, HA73EC. . Dc you know what his title is, his present ~ :;o, I don't. Hr. Murad, you told us about :ew snpyarcs j _ o j. ; :r.9cuer.t to one issuance Do you knov; if anyone other than yourse. involved in the preparation of that instruction visited the Electric Boat facility in Groton? A I don't know of anyone, no. 0 Mr. Murad, have you ever been present during a rioout ? I observed one, I believe, for a short tine o1 * ov I'n not sure which shipyard it was now, but see on* I dor* t r err. enter which yarc, -83 . . '-S MT-PWHD-016030 a> r r n it was orotat-y a: '70 or '71. It was white you were -- I'm not sure exactly. It was while you were`with the coatin' division? Yes . Have you met with anyone other than government c. u* o _ evs In c '.on ` ` eoaration for this deoosition1 .*0 . nave J 'w' U* aroii'C.4 of the ^hiobuiicers touncii o: Mo MS . C 01 nave r.c -1 thank you. HR. STARSZR: I Jo questions . .Ail CQCHEY: Mo questions. C CYME: Q Good after noon, hr. .Murad. My na Coyne, and I represent Haybestos-Manhattan. tcxicolor--, unit of the Haval Ship Engineering Center was first set A ho , I car.'t . .o c o :m\jv.' r.e n PRODUCED JM-83 MT-PWHD-016031 r n r asbestos in any fashion? A I can't give you -- I can't say exactly with certainty. I can only tell you when I first became aware of 4 iw 3 V.'hen was that? A -- which is what I saic before. _n toe - -x 5 a believe you said that after you started working in the coatings unit one qf your first meetings dealt with A Yes. ' b V.'ho was that meeting with? A Let me think if I can remember. I believe, if - this is my recollection, the best I can give you -- I believe there ware people from Jchr.s-i'anviile and from H. E. Porter, Lnd , of course, there was Ed Cherobrie: ;e_ieve 'was one: .eon Eirnbaum was there. i thinx t.nat fas _ ; .r,a; he purpose of that meeting As I recall, ii to co witn sets: i i i ;hir.k it had two purposes: one, ' r\ * i o ^ * * . o ^ i '. 1 `_ t! L T^j j -* u i cj. . U 5 MT-PWHD-016032 r .a./. acoul luce che asoestos content an r.ugn- c e race nature insulation materials - - 3 * * {Li . .J ' U <r-.----^> 1 7, P , .. * 13*-) J ~ ~ ->*c. coalings un;c, ar.a :o .:;e ex*er*u wr.av, v C u Cu cx w m n v Ta c^ ^ 2 S w C ^ insulation products, did you say that you only worked with oerf cmance soecifications? :a: acat . 3 ** 3 VI 3.HC0 t O, >*> 05 ) J- o a c. 0^1% a c 3 3 * ar.a n .*. i e s . C? '.'hat was your involvement? A ' '.veil, we reviewed it, trying to lock Tor ways of coming uc with going from, the high cercent of asoestos to -- that ir.su 1 C. V * >. </ tlu v had a high cercent W- wud ion that had a lower percentage of insulation -- of asbestos. ne 'e v PRODUCED JM -83 MT-PWHD-016033 r r n -2* un, j--know of anv uo a sates.actcry C Do you happen to kr.ov; v;ha 0. hr.a rv. -.. cV .l. p , assur.ini ;here is a title, of the survey or st tnat v:as cone in -hiiadelohia was? .n; t.av nave seen G""" " r-v v-> t - " <1 T. V* *~ O.. V Auv <> . Do wt fvi t <J <' U 4 author of . 1_-1^ , O<-' V4 *-. 5c* --ra1 E AO-... y ,. . O A. ^ v.f Si s heavier involves. I c< course, nd Cherobrier v:as heavily involved. isicn or oeoaronen: v;r.0 a: the study or survey? A It v;as Naval Ship Engineering Center, Philadelphia division. It was -- I believe it was under Sar. Greenberg's area. Ee, hir.self, v."asn't directly involved, but a couple of his people v:ere. Q '.'as there an actual report, to your knew ledge? A I don't knew. You know, I could presur.e, and sc PRODUCED JM - 83 MT-PWHD-016034 r The existence of the survey or o .Jujf . A Yes. I kr.ev: that the study i.* as going on, the sur ,;^rr * i Citover veu want to call that e r> *> ort was aci.n^ or* 5 and - . I Ct >-*. some idea of wha t the results we r <a a Earlier ycu re ferred to a sh u spec. That is AV./ u. C...t - 0 ra That's the -- the ship soec " f! description of the ^ h 2 r . c *- vn * sties of a sped Tic ship that' 5 heir.p acquired by *" w davy * "?.. coy:: E: I have no urther questions. "ig t*-*td> .v*r.di\ jf w ^ . :'?.. HOW-> , r\ <r. Hr. Murad, my name is Hadlei S d Howd. I am one of V-> O S. U "t orr.eys represent ing the Electr 1. c Boat division of Cer. o >"* qi 1 Dy namics . You indicated to Hr. Coyne - - he is the gentleman wi t h v; hem you just spoke - - that at a ti me you worked with the fed o >- 2 1 sp ecification SE-C -165, and I u.n d rstand you att emp ted to find a sufcsti tute product w j h a iov:er asbestos con ter. t? ;; ^ r r\ M tc ` * o "* " '* w -- y ro Q J~ 9 * n ^ -- t was ens oT t he goals. V.'e also ~ ^ ' r- r> * ' " o v *rj n__ *_ c. s 0 ia Vtr -r.iT- ' 3 wCj r *001v. t jCER Jrg MT-PWHD-016035 r n n is be s tos in that -- described ir. that 30 e< j^ -- v-. * - V_ ~~ - 3 . n 6 - o ci -- C ^bastes content notarial. ;ne Sor.ethir.a like that . ' I have to lc< 1 l`> Cm V / CL d ^ * percent; the other is arcunc j.o, 15 ' -- -*v.-* Crah >-< oW w' ^ _ 3o -grcer.t asbestos. Grade - -"i j- ^ n ;ercer.t a3.eestos 'ao^e a as au percent asbestos. Grade triple A-M is 95 percent asbestos And we were seeking to usq the lowest percent asbestos 1.* o ^ <= v76A r CCSS1C. . nat v;as one acorcac n CL O X -- - 5 w aooroach. rXr\J When did you 'Z 6 ~ f n work on tr.as spec: i. w Ci Is ion record to tr.e suostatuta on of a lower as oestos-co nbCLx.^i.b, rs^iQ ^ O V.'hen did you f irst beecr.e i nvoavea an v fiv uc5K 9 V.'ell, early in r.y tenure, so I'd say an tn vo Q Did you work with anyone else in your office -- A Yes. ' 3 -- in that endeavor? ?R00UCtD II*-W MT-PWHD-016036 ..'ell, c: course, our tosses. 4* *, t, *" V . --* W r^ V. 5 q9 O_U Lorpan steam and Leer. Birnbaura; and, of :our32, uohr. Aufers was nas coss. u us l. ncu_a j e relaea to a ^ar.~e extent on muustr ?eop_e., lisa.;; _ ve; ~ n^ .irr.e to 'e ser.ta- Cl- - * Been us aoorised . id luutd os ar.u ccr.s. .-.e v:ou_a net scrr.e ht *0 .1. * ci i i n. an at as .ii.-m as ..ataonai _r,suuataon ,-.anu: ;re rs .^ s_a. --* __ V_/' 1 * i t d ** w w. c . f --. +- , insulation -- that band together to provide oroaucts for the ccrnnon aooa. o Of whon 9 Of the industry. PROOUCtD MT-PWHD-016037 tr\ r sc:r.e U w- O -. aavism.s us a: .vT.au i.v.n 13 U . `S3 uior. '.v2a on .locations that v/ere sent to u.ven lor reviev:. C; Did you receive any 'JI.'iA comunications such as you nave cescnceo. on renara to you 0r~ p r: / r.^iu-^ ' one substitution and 33-C-^66? I'd have to -- I don't rerr.enoer. apart iron reuyonp on tn*-e ~ n: ilu-.a'-wu* -- - c.. prooocfo JM -S3 MT-PWHD-016038 r r r -o ( product for SS-C-Cec? Did you do ar.y in-house testing? That term, "in-house'' '-- does that give you a -o , third: I know vrhat you rear, by "in-hous s Did you do in-house testing? This is ir. c cnnec tis : i t h o h e 3 u .oution tas/. vou have described in icnnecticr. witn mcc. U3 6C v'.eui, v;e na1 S3 c.c;n as a sue; < ---- ' a sense, yes, v;e hau * *> *-! 02 ~ c* e* 4_ b U ii i sene limited use for certain projects, one in particular that I recall. ' Q V.'hich one is that, sir? A That was one in which we needed to have a -- remove what we call antisweat insulation, which is essentially a neoprene rubber, foam rubber, from cold water lines. V/e had to remove that insulation for testinm the thickness and integrity of the pipes ar.c then : lace it . ar.u we neecea to do it in a hurry, so we devis* 3. u 6Cnn*GU6 sleeve * he4s r-. vn *- W specific portion o; the piping system v:as testec :ro _ . j. ' s, -____- % Cli PRODUCED MT-PWHD-016039 r n covered the neoprene rubber insulation v.'ith ass cicwhj as cnoosed to asbestos cloth, which had previously in used. This was no -- not only to tot the job dons but to tie in the use of glass cloth as a substitute for asbestos cloth. .T A ivas this on a cold water pipe? it was on cold -water pipe, right .rat was tne result cf tots test, or yout understanding of the result of this test? A It worked, defray knowledge. It was towards the end of ny tenure. we started it in the -- about .Tay or so of '72, work was cone to aeoemune wr.at tne speeiiic ;o tcentt:y trh probuen tirst, anu, seconuoy to cone up with a substitute -- with a plausible solution; third, to actually implement this solution, and then -- Do you -- excuse me. A -- and then to actually put it into practice, h'hen I left, it seemed to be working well. n This v,ras in connection with the cold water pipe, ;nou; It was in connection with the cold -water pipe, but v;e used asbestos cloth not so much as an U .. Ct v G. ' Ci MT-PWHD-016040 n r rr.ainlv as a firs ret me . rs Are ^ b ^ ^ b b - a uow asoescos containing cloth u6'yi H 'T T-, ^ or hi connect ion w i t h Well , act that I recall. V'e used it in that instance, but, if v:e ccuid use it there, the -- a natural follow-on would ce to use it in any pice -- on any piping system as the cloth -- asia covering cloth for the insulation C I think you testified, hr. Murad, chat one of the reasons you did not substitute cloth under the lou specifica- ;ion v;a: because you could not find a material that would do tne ,1 Did you -- That's right. ---- cestuiy as to tnac? A Yes , sir. 3 '.fnat did you mean, wouldn't do t he j oc V. hat V.' as ufi: ell, wou.an t r.o_c up t: HO o^ ''a-r ny ru V.'e wanted something that would, cf course, go: insulating system, and we wanted something that would held h - f ^ v\ ~ h; * n C.. . (--------. c-. ~ a j v.; - PmROD-U8C3ED MT-PWHD-016041 r n n When we first started out, we were told that the -- only asbestos could withstand the kind of wrapping and treatment -- and, rather, stresses, on board a ship. f When you say you were-told, 'ey v;hcr. were you told? 'Who told you this? A The manufacturers, various manufacturers and sucriiers of insulation materials. > > * C / w o ^ cr. the co.u v:a: under stare, at, you :r ueDartmen cerfcrmed no other tests? ;,e were initiating seme teSvS .-.'hen you _e: A Toward the end of my tenure, ado-. '72 ' 0T 'waon ;o9 and '72 you, your department or __ _ tos-iree or a low-asbestos insulation cloth? A That's right. 'We relied on industry. 3 fid they provide you with any engineering reports or test reports? A As I recali, the reports that we got were mainly PRODUCED JI-83 MT-PWHD-016042 r r paragraphs, ou: nothing that I would consider a report, per ss, no. C then you say the reports you got mainly were oral -- * ,v,i . ' Q -- do you recall from. whom. you received any of these oral reports? . A . Oh, again, various r.anufacturers' and suppliers' representatives. ' . 0 Can vou think of any oarticuiar manufacturer or sun Well, K. K. Pc: o v* ;.rc c W li hi V V O^ Do you recall the name of the gentleman with w you socks On, yes It was on the tic of my tongue a few minutes ago. I can't think of his name at the moment. I can envision him. 0 Can you tell us the substance of the ora or c cr.rr.ur.i cation you race ived from the H. ?'. Porter ry c'mou^ ir * os. s * c 2.2. j. y , t r. at the only way to go was - W?1 1 . I r- f - ^ ; *, C , W 0 ^ 'J J W W 3.3 ^fiu. v y o j.r ; c. > * e-. . PRODUCED 1-83 MT-PWHD-016043 r r r H2 V.'hat he was saying -I will object to orm oj .he Question. A (Continuing) Chat he was saying v:as, essentially, that we needed to continue to have a certain amount of asbestos in order to provide the kind of material that would withstand the rigors of shipboard use. D_ d ne c*.na yo^ c*r.j v--..;e he. regarding asbestos and health? I don't remember the' Lticns with ' representative >f anv ether mar.ufactur ibutor of asbestos- containing insulation products This is in connection -- A Yes. Q -- with the 155 project. A -U 66 . I guess it included 156 as well as other asbestos-containing materials. he talked with people from Pittsburgh-Coming. o Do you r '* ' ' ~ ~' ' f' ? i 11 s b u r g h - C o rn i n g ? *-> 0 a >-, This guy -- no, I don't remember his name. V. .*. C? W A. ^ * MT-PWHD-016044 n ."3 has since -- 1 *cnov/' ne 1 s passed away. '* n e o ^ n e r rra n v/ a s irTC--.-.-.4. *.rl'vwS i'v-i;--- *- U icrr.s cfrice, ana ne was running sor. ^ . *, .=> said ne was cnV- ap u Ov< U k--< >- -. * *"" 'w i ix > 1 n-j ^ <3 sponsoring vests -he University of California to determine ;he health hazards or the alleged health hazards of asbestos. 'ou ever learn of the results cf those tests? m j. v.-as told zhat uney cas, cJ -^c^a*-1 uv , coincided with Selikcff's work. Q '.v'hen you say 3. representative of Fittsburgh- Corni v.-as local, v;hat do you mean by thac? A fell, he v.-as his office v.-as in - none in the Baltimore area, and he would visit our / . S approximately once every couple of months, stop in, say hello, ask how things were going, and talk over whatever problems may have surfaced. 3 what kind cf problems would you discuss with h: A Anything that had to do with supply, distribute on. anything that dealt -with she specifications. 5 'Would this be the supply, distribution and specifications of asbestos-containing . OU *C1 w . ^<1 Well, any of their p: iu a 3CG5vQo" cor: a. : ip. v> p n ${jL.r %'% IJilfti MT-PWHD-016045 r n nv of tneir oroauctsw it woujlu os products o: Did you ever have any discussions with hire as to health and asbestos? K ;n't recall one you indi; c e c e a s 9 c; i omnu i^nat was nas name. D Do you knev; if he h; ..avv oracr to working with Pittsburgh-Coming? A : S . his fellov: l oeueve, used to work out at Annapolis, at the same place vrhere I used to work, but years before, and at that time it was known as the engineer: test station. Q Do you know what his job was at the engineering iiO . gnat was years before I starts: r, ;o you anew .'avy PRODUCED JM - 83 MT-PWHD-016046 r -^J sffice i t h ,;hc~ you chatted? .es Xm _ W /* Cd wJ .bit i X t V O J SU_ * iana~er there rou went to r v'wwWb*. iu * i . ..o , r.c jo you reca.i -i > Q v12 --. o c - " ho, I don1. .. n cl 4^ G^G ^ O a discuss with .nvouveu in a ne was one ;o cortiste tne worn * ; i -- * * t 4 w vN C.O 1 O ^ > <1 4 ne 2 c f c. ~ r: Lone at the University of California under Pittsburgh- icrning's auspices, before any changes were r.ade to any of on s. 5 By "changes" do you mean changes frcr. asbestos- containing to non asbestos-containing products? either that or reduction of asbestos .men tnticioate that this California uayr* 7" ' * fo joula.ce co.~cj.eteu -- ev; r.or.tns four PRODUCED JM - 83 MT-PWHD-016047 C' r i*-c. " few mon;ns '.-.'as it completed .then, i. you recai-.' <6 C3 w -- ' a-- rs-5i 5 ;co dt ^ -- w --^i*A as i r br.an r.e i1 * b v,' as c cm pis t/ 6u . * ;hat study, did he make my recommendations :o you as to substitution of a low CiOv-'^w`^'wO 'k-'W*Jw'C.-.. 4 a ^ .i;, z-*, * <- 7* r-\ v> p n ? r'^OP<-/-\c,_fv'flp \J* dli U. *J ^ it W 'w' i tU I don't reca 11 that he did. no* You ment ions a -a confers nee v;ich several people .d d cui; rp r* T* l''- B O' else in this conference y o u nao ? Yes, 1 b e 1 i e yo ___ ' of- y e thi ra * .*. as -- - Bd b 6 1. i S V 6 v." a s tain r.yan v;as th ere, I believe; people at 3UMED. 3 Do you recall the names of anyone frc BUMED? A recall. V.'eii, Sam Sarbco and his boss, v;hcse name can ' t His boss was a captain; Sam was a commander at that time. 0 Sam Barboo? A Sarbco, B-a-r-b-o-o, either Barboo or'Barto. always called him Sam Barboo. Q Any other manufacturers' representatives there? n *.O v clC :-*.uV .7.6d; C -- r.7 . produced JM - 83 MT-PWHD-016048 C' r r -^ / Q ' DO'you recall any other neetings with manufac turers or distributers of asbestos-containing products? A Oh, they came into the office from. time to time, yes. I can't tell you. There was no specific schedule. r\ t .. n . . A They just came in when they were -- when they were in the area. Q Do you recall the first time you had a conversa tion with arm/ representative of a manufacturer or distributor of asbestos-containing insulation products? i or.inn it was ;t time I .mentioned, that was early in -- well, early in my tenure, nii rn" 9v9r. been slightly before my tenure -- my exact time of officiail j switching from one job to another, by a couple -- it may have preceded it bv two or three days. Q How aid that come about? A It was in Seotember of '68. Q nr How did that come about I don't nnow what i ni 01 I v/as asked to atte nd , si 1 woul Leon Birnba y r**, 71 *.* >* u x.r* 0 9. U.f". C" "* * T c* * SANSIKS. tale u producei Jfii - 33 MT-PWHD-016049 r r r why you v:ere attending or the purpose of the meeting? A 'veil, I v;as attending because I v;cuid scon be * pi . r\ -- ' S 2-r* C 0 tHat V.'aS cr coring, that meeting pertained to something i wotI ed i n, he wanted me to be pri vy to the infermat ion. A nd it dealt , as I reca 11, wi th those. two i v e s I mentioned. o I a m sorry, I do not re call t he two cb jectimes. ere t he y, sir? r, gel 1, as I re call, one object ive was t o reduce , 3 U 3. ;b bCii to find o ut -whether you o ouid redu ce the of insul ation. 3 The amount of asbestos in ins ulation? rA. The amount of asbestos, right 'O And the other oo j ect'ive 0 A The other one -- I j ust SS.O.G it a fev; minutes ago. I must be netting tired again, t- ' 1 .it: v.oula you reaa me wnat _ said before? It v;as in an suer to this g*oe r*' ". n ~ c 1 q ec! : U _ -- i- . li PRODUCED JM -83 MT-PWHD-016050 :o talk -- it v;as about procedures for ripout procedures ripout, right Do vou recaii v.'nat mariufacturers 'esentaaives .'ere there at that first meeting? A Yell, as I say, as I recaii, it was H. K. Porter, s no n o j'po'Ma , -on*-*"1 yoJO i] via^airiavi -r $ n2.i.i3 5 01 any < W Ov ion't, no. DO 701 :a~l t ne s us stance !f that conversation or meetan V'eii, i' v:as a long time ape, cut, essentially, nr- c n ~ o q 2 na s/iiW*- A-* 4y.iMmWo W W *'< OC -* asbestos-containing material in high-temperature insulatic: That you had to continue using it? A Yes. hhy? Those reasons I mentioned, that no otter -- .rUo ;here was n ; known material that was asbestos-free tnat would withstand the rigors of shipboara u-a PRODUCED JM - 83 MT-PWHD-016051 r r n i7\ U> ,1. /" Ci s :he r.anufac:urer; 1 representacives. .d you take a moment, Mr. Murad, and please is or. pane -i o: tne .-.-u stanoarc. ..n 7o -* ^ V, 7 Q o MR. KQWD V.'e will nark It, but him take a lock cC aC. re was MR . KO'.-.'D : s "r'-.' -- '' c: , hink oaae i. z on;vij a i n ut , iOOW ;ne v:ncj.s tninn 5 Mr. Murad, if you would take a minuteyou cs look at the entire document, but I -would like to ask you some cues' loncernma .1st o: soecuacations cn cage You take your time and go through it, please. i', iV f'o")' -f ^ +v- 1V-1\ ^ .*-w= p iw'-'1 >" q (Discussion off the record) Are you locking at page 1 of that military standard? A i e s , .a. am y? : . u>:case me, naGueig: PRODUCED 31-83 MT-PWHD-016052 n r n (Discussion off the record) Q Have you worked on -- by "worked on" meaning drafted, revised or provided any input into the drafting or revision of -- any of the military or federal specifications listen on page 1? A Yes. Yes, I've provided some information. Q "YouId you take a moment and tell us which ones you have worked or. and ju*t what your involvement -was with the particular specification? This is to the best of your recollection, "r. Murad. A Yes. Let's see. As far as anything to do wic: them? ' Q Yes. A In some cases it wasn't much;in other cases ii may have been more than that. This one here, SS-C-A65 -- Q All right, let's take it one at a time. SS-C-4S6? A Yes. Q You havealready describedyour conversations with industry -- . HP! Mfi , MT-PWHD-016053 r r r~ X.J -- conce rning your attempts to find an asbestos- . or lov; asbestos -containing substitute? K 3..-itj--.ull* '<V Can you think of anything else, any ether you hadVu9aw V t w . . *W- 4V- C fU* ue* dwo w^ J ^ wC wC ,_r_b -- p f'"-> y*. ^ ^*t *W" *>-j . r--. * i o*W* use the iov;er -- t he 4 0 iv 8 S ^ p 0 o S w a s o ss'tos content rr.aterial i-i ajuiiCGwiOn wo our snaps. r'. Mow did you s eek to accomplish that, using a lov; er 3.3 bestes content? Tkhat did you do? A ..Sii , ...&j..: --j* , we tried tc -- v;e a gat n relied on i.nd to Xf ry to decermine v;he then that could be done , wherever it COU id t 0 donej and talked to the people in t h 0 icing area. owv Excuse me. n e n you say -- n A1 Kunkrees. c>[ Excuse me. V.'hen you say "pipi * 4 C4-- ea," are you i (s 1 .an , Yes . Q Go that would be the EA V3HIP3 - A k\n. . o Ho - Or< .'T< rii*,*wcw;r-r/ r^'r-^ area? A i\d\ a- w.i-p L/.ir. p^ <a.oa'vfiS iV"* Ca il v vp, .y j ar*J * ply VC., vn -> , -d r> ---'.*** p y- p 0 p C PRODUCED JM - 83 MT-PWHD-016054 in r ' Yes. Just what input, if any, roureceive iron, t he pipin' area? A Really, net too much. Most of our input was - most of the information v:e got, what little v;e oil receive, was from industry. ' - that ao vou mean :t ur e r uuc . es Do you rec t the names of y o the people in ;^or. v;i: >n you a; A 1 ci ea 11 mo s 11 y w ith A1 Munhrees. /.i ry Can you desorite for us jusu wha t your dealings ere? '.'hat did you and Mr. Munkrees do or atter.pt to do? H<. Me tried to brin g this up-to -dat 8 . n.s a natter r - produced JI - 83 MT-PWHD-016055 n r temperature insulation materials that had a ar.ount o: cIG '* ^ " t/0 " 5 .''i0'1,3 V'-'T O 0 3 * L 1 . *3 j' C 1."b L. n*3 3* 3 c - ' i- c: -- o - B. 10 V'G2 . * > w ^0 ^ U1 1 w;ls '.'jOUio you uays a -Loci'. ao pa^s ^ 3 .--.r'aoic nins } c* that standard, please. A Okay. Q Can you tell me: Does the military standard tha you have there make any provision for the use of a high a~ se? ca c ** r't r- __ retaining insulation product ;r himh-temoerature >om ielov;, asbestos larging -- Asbestos '* bb* *o ng corformirtg to SS-C-boc grade po -a triole A cloth shall be used above 503 degrees Fahrenheit. Of course, you have to refer oaca to t.nas to see .-.hat those cloths included. dO iyiv," ~;ou`:u" e " ` ;stos =r c e r. t asbestos ..aen you say . n ^ a. ^ r.iz c. *' iOi I* l $ i ^ ?* > <r-r - ry I - i.s%.*JJ MT-PWHD-016056 nv mi r r .o ZZ-C-t55 . (Centinuina) I'd have to read through the whole - Ct O * i z r. 3. z oU65 - ion corr.o Q Did your work with hr ( hunkrees result in any change or amendment to that standard? e: ore _ cou^a answer tr,a~. T Did you discuss that standard -- in particular, .he prevision you have juslt read -- with any of the Probably . Probably Again, the tes ,, we did tali: about this type of thing. 0 Did you seek any input from the nanu;acturners oi standard for the use and application of an asbestos- containing insulation product? A 'Chat was that again? , f^ (The pending question was' read.) (Continuing) 'eceived -- I don't know .: we sour: cu; rece i v PRODUCED JM - 83 MT-PWHD-016057 c -C'O of oral pitches, so to speaw. Q Car, you elaborate on that, tell us just what you did receive? bell, basically, the main thrust oi she converse-- tion, as I under 5 vOOC --uj free, the v ariety of insulation raanuf act urers, was that as bestos was s ti O.J. n e eded and that the glas s cloth would not -- v:as too friable, w r.dt lw rV 3 <-* c* break too often. * p This was in cq nr.eeoion w ith a nil itary standard, p 2 ^ ^ 0 ^ ed to a ^'t litany s pecif icat ion?' ' A v.-ell th ''/c were tied t* **W nW P~U => vn y m isai t n e standard cites w here you v; ouid use t he spec , =r *1 .Xov' applied to this purpose , t he .ourcose -w S ified-- d* C * * w by the various portions of the st anaard The gist of the ccnversa- tion was that the asbestos cloth sti 11 was ne eced. Q Is i t your und ersta.nding of that standard, that you have , that i t app -11.0 5 to the use of asbes tos or applied to the use of an aSD85tC5" containing product on board a ship? Is that c crre c t ? That was that again, pie ase? I\ >iU : would you r ead that, Roy, ?3. GALE: a PUS?ILL produced JM - 83 MT-PWHD-016058 r n (The pending question was read.) A (Continuing) 'ell, the standard applies to thermal insulating materials, and -asbestos-containing materials is one thermal insulating material, one class, you might.say. Q Would a Wavy shipyard use that standard? A ;ur Would a government contract yard, for the government op the Wavy, uss b ^. .f it were mvcuea m tr.e snio icoc in the contract, yes. _t wcu-c nave sc be invoked, Q Do you have any specific recollection of dis- cussing that standard or revision of that standard with any manufacture - of an asbestos-containing insulation product? MR. JHLLDY: May I have that question reread. I cannot hear Mr. Kov/d. (The pending question was read.) A Specific, no. 0 r.oa: 'em , do you recognise any other federal or military specifications? *'>.*.Hu/ O- --V .' .---i O v -- -Wiiwj <^w --n / PRODUCED JNI - 83 MT-PWHD-016059 r r k MIL C-73b, cloth, brattice, cotton, fire- Zt is a brattice cloth. Q Do you know if that specification concerns an asbestos insulation product? MR. JEL1EY: May I have the question re- r the end of any o TO ' r'-c'y. liey, there is an err.cty sea^ --% i am ce V- > --\ r V* V-> ~ mJUiu w 9 d ^ . i'iR i. 0 .'* X.. Ci j eak up ir3 w9aG Cl >, no q ^ him.' 11 ey , 1 think v;e would proceed faster moved up to one of these empty seats, c the w itness. MR. JZLLEY: I am going to stay here. MR. HOV/D; Mr. Jeliey has spoken. (The pending question was read.) . 3v ,mnn it just as a cotton cio^n. PRODUCED Ji-83 MT-PWHD-016060 n r -OV ;hat list? >"> y ari q > >*a'vM 0 r 0 Q. can T t n orn ^r.C'Sr v;na; :.eTre proms W I-- w i\ you kncv;, six to nine years. Q V.T.at does tr.at c ' c* rQ^c - r'. wc -w?* --: C2 ~w s a ow'o* f*. Zs -k e w^ ^ -l . -he s; ;hinw tr.at was a nceruass . .ninn at v:as. ao vcu Know a - <a at v.'as . as -- rhuass ::o, a'~ net sure *. ** J * . x\ fioir,'`*l2.ss T.Etsriai* ' Q Do you recall any conversations with industry concerning that specification? A Tell, we talked with industry on ail these specifications, sure. 'he relied on industry for our information, through ASTA, through ulnA, and cy visit represented ires.at their discretion .hey ca.r.e an wner.eve: they saw fat, and sorr.etir.es they' call for an , o m ~i c> t and sor.etir.es they'd just pep in. C Do you have any r;= "crd of the manufacturers' 'ese.ut at aves or castra: 's' represer.tat ives vhro fc ust P;- t> Ji 4le'-v hra .*> ffia ,-S^j '?, MT-PWHD-016061 n r X- ,U< o^ ir. or v:s.tsc you: ..o , 1 un t iieeo a re: W . xx . Did you keep any of their business cards? I had-- they had given me business cards, cut I or. t have any new. Do you think they might be in your files? a t den 't knew. I don't know . T h 6 7 might be Q V:hat files wo uld those be? ;;0v; v.'OU id you id ent fy t hen? .A % I can 't even take'a stab as it. - have beer. ou cf t 'n Ci-^Q C S '* X ana a ha if years, so th cse are v * 4 w i e "* ** file s I turned ov er ecuId well have beer. redone. Q Apart Si,X X L. ... J7 C1 do you reec jrn j. c e an y other spec if icatior.s? A 16 5. m V-\ o _____ well, actually, many of these I ^ 0 invo Ived in. Q Would you rea a them off for us, plea s e A Sure: Insui aticn bl ar.ket, thermal, fibrous ,'mineral -- Q What is the n umber of that, 4 -V-l *7 A That' s "11 I- -i 0 - 3 W _ *r' . reau xnis v.no_e PRODUCED Ji MT-PWHD-016062 n r oasre? The ones that vcu recall having some mvo.xve~ent A x trunk x got mvGxvec m almost aj tne:n to a none or less -- greater cr lesser de.vree. very little; others quite a'lot. C I'd say almost all of then There might be two ;hree here that I didn^t get involved i: )an vou nick cut the ones the': Ilv'v*. tu _L * * . ion 't; vcxi n (formula ::o. 117 - or >-15323, prime, Do you see any eta th ith? ' This one on the be< .xr.g, b-e-d-d- i-n- S 9 'ing. I may or may . to any great exte r-> +* 9 Going up to the fe tton, Mattres s. " Verv IIZwIg in ^ h" PRODUCED M - 83 MT-PWHD-016063 r r r~ CO tea. And QC!-V.-3^3 wire - electrics* ana nen- ilectrical, capper (uninsulated). And QQ-V.'-320 j , nickel, chromium alloy let's see. SS-C-192, cement, Foreland. a* -- v -- o , pa:n, *nteraor, v,n -- vc n * t * n v o , ~ - e -- 'etaraant . TT--P -- 323, pindent , aluminum; pov.'der ana paste, icr oamt. And IT-7-105, tape, pressure-sensitive adhesive, *..Ci O /. t i t ;er. The ethers I think I gat involved ir.. Mr. Murad., then, would it ce fair to say the ones with which you did become involved? Is that correct? A Yes , I worked- with them. 0 During the course of your work -with those other specifications, would it a;e usuai oroceoure to ccnsui- watn industry concerning the drafting and revision of those specifications? . ^ooycEs i Jit* V .7 MT-PWHD-016064 r r" involve- in a cnanne. ..e mtenaea to cnanne t.n: : ificat ;ne ..avy , witnin tne cooramaiicn cyi rcai eo -- ^ ' _&,v CYliS v;ouia oe sent out to review oy i: Q I think you have described it : What 'would be the next stet? You would send it to WIW.A for review? ~ * fO> ' s -- * y-> * ? 6J t h e r__ they wcu.u eitn o **'* re r- a yss } tr.i3 a^rse with the change -as stated j or they disagreed, for the reasons, and they'd jasons; ana w resolve 'whatever tne contents were. *4 how wouua ycu~o aocut rescavann -- ueoenc on the corr.nent, we'd either droo it o: incorporate it with, Luse w.re r.aa goca reason. woula rea__y aeoena on tne Change mvoivec. 5 Do you reca.i a circutstar.ce where .w.-..-. suggested a revision, ever suggested a revision to a i ' pviy dr\oi*ii r*j -rat. r-' fscsTcl spscii'icEticn? A _ ^ l i a.. r. hey did, but nave vou a s: bo you xV:r-.w f ' .= iv .reccras were xeci, c; PRODUCED JM - 83 MT-PWHD-016065 u> C' n r V.'hen I v;as there, I kept the records -- I kep- tue -- a ccov ) r*e -- 3 v w 0 r* 3 ^ c 3.rr3 ir. - r* ^ rr* t; vou id&ntifv the file of this .'III*.A :orresoonaence: _ it would be under the aeait witn specific specification, ;r wou-u mat i oncer, on era.. some. 'or a particular specification0 i es After you had received input from k_k.A, then what v:as tne next steo i: 'evasion o: A V.'e' d send it to code cI23. As a ir.atter o* tact, they would usually be involved in the interface with MIMA. he'd get a copy of the letter they sent to 120, we'd send it back to-120, specifically 120, for the specification specs, and one o :he people there 'would put together the change for presentation to the Specification Review Board. Q Have you ever heard of the Asbestos Textile The name sounds a little familiar, but I'm not that -- you kn ov;, say > ns.u -u kdov/ Oj --V UJm r\ -- /-( -T| PRODUCED JM - MT-PWHD-016066 r r review board, then what would happen? ,91. -- we'd get on the agenda for ths reviev: bcara ana aiscuss tne cnange/ ana, as as ; n o change did not cause a problem v;ith any of the people or wish any of the groups that were represented on the boa would be adopted and finally printed, and '' 'Oecai1 ca-- ic: .ne amendment : the specification 'would ; issued.. After enough amendments came out, then the spec'^ icat ion was reorinted. ; C Can you recaii an instance wnere i pecificaticn, a military specification, was drafted or revised for a product that was not in existence at she time of-the draft or revision? ' A I can't recaii of one, no. S Can you recall an instance where a drafted scecification or revised specification rscuired chat a new ade to meet it? ;jo , I can't recall it... ' S o w ouid it be fair to say that all speciflca- ara fted or revised, concerned existing t _ a..r.i. u i. 0 wJ dC w ^ 0 v..c ; 0- L produced JNI - 83 MT-PWHD-016067 U\ r n rs question. A I would say yes. 3 In your conversations with industry or the manufacturers-, do you recall any conversations concerning health and asbestos? A I can't recall any specific ones ri o *.r well, the one that I mentioned with hittsburgn-iorn:r.:, i: which the -Q s is the Up iversity of California 9 A Ris ht. Right - (Co ntinuing) - - in whi ch they were r un -- they e sc onscring a study to **T Qw "*V* "-? *P-sJ, T } tO CH0Ck 0 u w y v;nat .ikof f had pu 'dished. But , otherwise , tv Tp' Ow ople we talked to were .ical ly marks ting ceople . XdSj were not well -versed in .1th hazards, to my know ledge j n or was I. V.re would booh just talking informally , to put it at best. r->o,. was CU336Cy apart from the Pitt sburgh- ning example you have m snt io.ned O r*i hot that 1 rec Q V.'as he-ith 0ve r a c c r. s deration in t he drafting dv- y J seen o- --* ** ^ 'j c C C C 1 - e acicn 1 our ion--'d PRODUCED MT-PWHD-016068 r* A ' 'Tell, we wanted to reduce asbestos, inasmuch -- the best way we could at the time, based on the materials that were available tc us that v;e knew would do the job. C *--i rj r *-' r* A< o * = Q Apart from that -- A V.'e were both -- Q -- was health ever a consideration, to your knowledge, in the drafting or revision of a military specification? A That has' to do with asbestos , you mean? les, sur I don't think so. I don V* 0 * V O can answer the question tc any useful degree. c. Did you ever receive any written communication and asbestos? A I don't recall of receiving any, myself, r.o bo you recau~.~ ever seeing ar.y such 'written c ommu n a c a 11 on o _ __ JM - 83 MT-PWHD-016069 n n r j.' tmnn _ rec.Sii a ue* which set forth sc.t J. W i. * O i ^ -- 4. i ^ v ii C.O-'N-w-'-'^w^ w - C x-* w W vx V 3 Ci i i x > ~? o - v. n -Cr: _l o e - u. e v i,- ra -*' ca mcorooratea or. tra: instructs* 5120 G d. b n --- or point two, whatever it i ^ i t w one v;e refe V*>-0 ^ to earlier in the deposition. r:>%, The 'IAVSHIP ir _-> *w .vm> _ Wvn> 0 A V- - *- i '.t . -vr ^^ z* :* --~ V*. -- nstructicn 512 >J 2c . Do you recall from whoa you r-.o ceive C. w * * d w -- A T ,U-x /U*X ViXi 1 +w*- haw.. J f I received i 0* ? r*c Vw,/ iWti *W-> 3 as ^ r ecall, it v:as a letter that c a a a ~ >- .j o the Havy, GU Cl -- ^ c t sure if it car: e into our off e or ocr.ecne o'! C0 T s j a r*-i *. I believe it c ate from H. H. D erter ' ' Q Do you recall when you first 5 aw th at ? L Oh, gee -- HR. HCV.p : Excuse me. Off the record. . (Discuss ion off the re CO rd) A (Continuing) I don't recall Vv hen I saw it, no answ ar vc ur question. HR. H3V.D : Referring to the -r >? r s_-.Tr standard with the list of rr.i 11 *w ~tii J spec ificati 1 woul; ;o have that rrarkec :or ice: PRODUCED JM - 83 MT-PWHD-016070 n n MR. :!OV;iMSKI: Is that the sane military standard that v.-e have been talking abouUt * sJ CLi i MR HOMD: T" V'T rl.ov; will we know that? MR. HOV.'D n O 14. Ux J 0 1 . JTw ''Uib j . v w' Jf (cooy of o ua:uia. u / ;s (Ships), headed "Therma. Insulation Requirements for Machinery 1 Piping, datep January 3, 1956, consisting of seventeen pages, 'was marked General dynamics (Murad) Rxhit o do: ion, as c: -\r VP date.) Mr. Murad, referring ;o General Dynamics (Murad) 5 fo: identification, would you, for the record, identify that exhibit. A Military standard, thermal insulation require- cn cents for machinery and' piping, MIL standard 7591 (Ships), January IpSc. - Q Mr. Murad, that the standard or the document ;o v;hich yon made reference earlier or. in your testimony MMZRM jALl MT-PWHD-016071 r n Yes, it is. ;hat the standard cr document ccn CL list of military and federal specifications to v;hich you mac reference earlier on in your testimony? ' :es, it is You mentioned conversations ;hink you indicated you had conversations v;ith representatives cf Johns-"anvil-e anc cat correct, A ies . Do vou recauu >: ar.v ctner m.anufaetu- A K. K. Porter. V/e talked with people from Eagle Picher, from Claremont;. Eaybestcs-Manhattan came in once, I believe; yes, at least once. Very shortly, though, not too much. V.'ho are some of the others? Did Isay Johns- I-'anville? Ovens-Corning. Q 1 do not recall. A Okay, Johns-Manvi lie ,Ov;ens-Corning. - Q Cv/ens-Corning? H /65 ^ig vou OO.V3 c.ny ccnvsr oCl t . vi PRODUCED JM-83 MT-PWHD-016072 r n Cu.7~.In2s Insulas ion? Cunu..in~s . Cot that I recall Haren.cnt. _ ir.sntionec then. Anv conversations with anyone iron Ar.atex' .-.ay nave . ne r*a*..e s 0unc 3 z arrij-i.i.s.r' 3 certainly and I 7.ay have ^talked to or.s 'eoresenta- ;ives3 but I':n net -- d. can' scan tne soecizic co.nversa- ,cn. cut certainly. rener.cer tne n Q Did you have any e'envs is v;itn anyone fr A wot tnat 1 recall. Q Have you ever had any conversations with anyone from Defense Aocarei? h. Ho, not that I recall Any conversations -with anyone .rot Shook 1 Fletche: nave yo. iWu? JM MT-PWHD-016073 r n __nclustnss ? - I c. neei . i aon.'t tninh sc, no nave you ever ;he nave uNAv.CG? Yes . O In what context did you hear the name UNAECO? A 'Hasn't there sene one here fro.v. GHAHCG? Q Have you everihad any conversations -- this is during your tenure in the coating unit -- v;ith a representa- ave o; tive. ;o re.T.err.c: were v:as a represer.taa I recall the na.v.e . They were a supplier, as I recall, but I can't remember any specific conversations. C Have you had any conversations with a representative of V/estirgheuse? A Hot during that tenure, that I recall, no. G At any other tine during your employ with the government, have you had conversations with representatives Ho, I don't third; sc,- not concerning insulation PRODUCED JM -83 MT-PWHD-016074 r r _. - 7 __ .. t X w ; * l >Wi' . r, ^ ** sj 4. (j-3CU5 S.-OH O- x w ne 'ecora; hr. Murad, you have exp la. c on ve rsatic n with Mr. Cherobrier cone 5U 03w itutio r. program or attempts . DDid vou Y't ^ f* Ok U my v;ritt en mat Gri2,l fr*orn ni.rr: corcsr n 1. r* ns::rh >. V" * f a-o - ir.e ? * s\ Mot that I recall. - nia; as _ -saia ear li AW x>* 5 --*" may have read that ns v/scap tt C this w hole thing off, but I don 1 renemoer v;nen j. i Z OT even if I did read it. I certc.a_niy remember talking about -4L 4s.- , Va>* earing about it. Orv You remember it bein g bro' It was brought to my attention, yes. r> There was the Times, Th- A _l u was either the Times r\ Or The 'Washington Post? A One or the ether. 0 It con cerr.ed the Seiiko *' f* -. Ayi'/O id Yes. /y r.ci v a v ou ever seen this S-.bt'F.S. SALE PRODUCED JM - 83 MT-PWHD-016075 r r r i^ A Q A Q A . iO . y . r\ mr. momimski: Hadleigh, are :ne rarumes on this document yours, or is this the v:ay you -- :-:r. hcmd v. r. icTi m s.r* id n ^ v Yes , she narking on that do cument is mi ns. Mo, I don 1 t recall seeing this. Mould you identify that document, for the rec ^ d i wf i 3 X 3 3* * ,*i t r it ? - o 2 . And t h.0 ds. te of it, sir? Okay , the dat$ is August 19^6. It is volume I d- j M'ould you look at this document, ^ e--o , .`.r . f s i \ j j MR. LEVY: Are you going to nark'these? . MR. KOMD: Off the record. . (Discussion off the record) MR. HO'vD: Mould you nark this. MR. LEVY: -Off the record. _ (Discussion off the record) (Copy of MAYER35 P-52, volume III, Mo. 3, dated August 19hS, consisting of three pages, v;as rl Dynamics (Murad) Exhibit 6 for 4 xr v" t" ^ * *> T'. ~ *r * ^ ps J PRODUCED JM - 83 MT-PWHD-016076 r n r MR. HO'.vD: For one record, we have marked the nub lie at ion :st perused 'ey Mr. Murad as Gen era! Dynamic Exhibit 6 for identification, and this is the ibiication received as part of the Government' of the defendants' first supplemental response to plaintiffs' interrogatories. MR. HQVIMSHI: Have you marked the ' document Mr.'Murad reviewed? . MR. ..o.'.i.'ih.'.u : A cilierent document; is ;hat correct? MR. HOHD: Yes, that is correct. Q Mr. Murad, for the record, would you please look at General Dynamics Exhibit 6 for identification -- MR. NOHIMSKI: He has just spent five minutes reviewing another document. . MR. HOL'D: He is going to have to lock at another one, Peter, since you -- MR. LEVY: That is a clean one. A Is this the same as this, or what? R5. gale. iOPtJGEB JM' MT-PWHD-016077 r~ - G. uAu. p A Q .-.ait a mmut! Murad, would you please look ^ x h b ^ o? -- a -- s --. ^ kjAri*.*/ -^ c Is that -- This is the one a just looked at earlier. Is that identical to the exhibit you just locked A Tell, the cover sheet is. Q ".','ouid you loo> at the rest of it, please. A It locks like -- yes. Q - Is it your testimony that you have not seen document before today? Q nuraa. es. . culd you look at this document, please, i`*E .Wii inoAl . V.'hy don't you mark it. you want to do it the same way? Okay. i'.R . KEMh'Y : Thi s is objected to as harassment of the witness. Ok houlc icen e <5 V 2.6 O o L -- s *- j Do e 5 PRODUt ||c5) MT-PWHD-016078 r r r ~ 11 1V J OJ Have you chat document before today, sir? .iO . .'ould you r.ark that, please. noy . MR. LEVY: 'Mas this also t alter, from th Government's resconses to the interrogatories, no wo? MR. HO'HD V es r.n T TT**"Y- Thank you. (Cony of HAVEXP05 n -- o D , vOn ...i; , . * 0 -- , dated January I9I7, consisting of four pages, v:as marked General Dynamics (Murad) Exhibit 7 for identification, as of this cate.) IR . HDTD : Q Mr. Murad, v;ould you please look at this document. MR. MOV/IMSKIThis is another marked-up copy. (Discussion off the record) . Q Mould you identify that document, please.. A Safety manual, part two, shops 5c, 25 and 27, >0V - 0 j. ..a'v'ai ofi-y v' v. j - c- -` PRODUCED JM - 83 MT-PWHD-016079 r r r Xi 0 Have you ever seer, that docur.ent before today Ho. - MR. KOVD: (Copy of Safety Manual, Part 2, shops 56, 25 and 27, Horfolk Maval Shipyard, 1st edition, dated 1954, was narked General Dynamics-(Murad) Exhibit S for identification, as of this date.) MR. HO'.rj : For the record , this document which has been marked as Exhibit S for ider.tifica- tic.n was p cedyt r\ r* < by the Gove mm ent in response to interrogatory 67 of the plaintiffs' interroga tories. MR. SCKV.'ARTZ: . Off the record. (Discussion off the record) MR. HOV.'D: For the record, it is agreed that we will use a marked copy for purposes of identification, and then at soma later tirr.e substitute an unmarked copy. Is that agreeable to everyone? MR. LEVY: Yes-. i'.n * es PRODUCED M - 83 MT-PWHD-016080 r n 7 MR. STAMGER: Yes. MR. KERRY: Off the record. (Discussion off the record) 3Y MR. MOV'D Q Would you look at this, please. A Okay. Q Would you identify that, please, s: A This is safetyhandbook for pipe f: srs , HAYORD instruction 5100.21. ; Q Have you everseen that H he date is 7 .January j ^ Haveyou seen that document before today, Mo. MR. HOWD: Mark that, please, Roy. (Copy of Safety Handbook for pipe fitters, HAYORDIHST 5100.21, dated January 7, 1353, con sisting of four pages, v/as marked General Dynamics (Murad) Exhibit 9 for identification, as of this date.) MR. MOV'D: * For the record, Exhibit S has been produced by the Government in response to interrogatory 57 of the plaintiffs' interrogav ' ' YMs. gale a rnEcr RODUCED JM - 83 MT-PWHD-016081 'O r o Y MR. HOViD : Q Would you look at this, Mr. Murad, please. Mr. Murad, have you seen that dccur.snt before tcaay? h iiO j sir . Q Would you identify that for the record. A Safety precautions for shore activities, MA733 ; 5 , April 1965. Then there's a-lower, right-hand corner, -e 1 June 1567. *' MR. KOV.'D: Mould you nark that, Roy, . : please. (Copy of MAVSO F-2.A55, "Safety Precautions For Shore Activities," dated April 1965, changed June 1, 1967, consisting of two pages, was narked General Dynamics (Murad) Exhibit 10 for identification, as of this date.) Q Mr. Murad, in connection with the task of the es: in California, I think you have indicated it was at hunters Point and it concerned molded pipe insulation, .es . Do vou recall if any.manufacturer or industr KJ _ ^3 z. . : TTDc ,-vv r PRODUCED JM - 83 MT-PWHD-016082 r - oi A ' Well, only to the extent that they -- certainly, had tc orocure material from industry, hut thev didn't have a nanci ur tns actuau i.6S.1115 Q Do you kriov; from whom the material v:as procured? A I think it v;as H. K. Porter -- excuse me, it v;as Eagle Picher. D This v:as molded pipe insulation? . A As I recall. It may have also been around the propulsion plant. They i^sed a gas turbine, though. it was for the FF. Q What - was the result of that test, if you know? Well, the test wasn't completed until -after I i o rr. ift before the test was complete. Q Do you knov; if there exists a report of the test result?) I don't know if there's a report. I don't know. Q Do you know -who had responsibility for that test? - o rson*' fa v c* out tnere/ Yes . emsmoe: tne name. Did you observe any of the test procedure? PRODUCED JM - 83 MT-PWHD-016083 C' n r .32 Q Do you know if anyone from your department c'oserved any of the test procedures? A -tOj i lOP. 3/ r. no.-, .l 2. cflj oOU(y Cli.u . 0 It is r.y recollection of your testimony that, when you v.:ere in the coatings unit , you had communications with the boiler people, the piping people and the refrigeration people, or these sections. This is when you were in the ccasings unit. ' V.'hat conversations, if any, did you have with the people in the piping section? '.-.`hat was the nature or the gist of those conversations? A A1 Munkrees -- talked with him.about the use of -- I worked with him on 7o9, revision C and D, talked to him on the use of insulation materials for their piping systems. Q Do you know if that section, the piping section, was involved in the use and application of asbestos-containing insulation products? '. A Sure. Yes. Q Where, or hcv/? ' A On high-temperature pipes. 0 YouId this be on board ship? ,n o; PRODUCED JM - 83 MT-PWHD-016084 r r r ~0 Q Did they direct particular operation, or were they, themselves, actively involved in the installation of - A 'dell, it v;as a neadcyuarters operation. V.'e didn't do any actual, physical work. Q what -- A Just -writing instructions and serve as an infor.v.ation-gathering and -dispersing service.. ' 0 To whom would you disperse or so whom did they disp.e rse this informatio n ;concer ning the applica on and use of as best os insulation p roducts? A Various snip yards. If a shi p had a p roblem, they ' dec me in to the ty pe desk. It was c alaea - he type desk at t hat time; now t hey call it ships 1 ogast ic s man ay ers . And the ship logisti cs manage rs , or 5L IhS, type desk, would --or should come t o the app ro priat e Naval Ship Engi neering Center engineer involved q Do you know if this section h 3.0. resp on sibility for p riva te yards involv ed with governmen u contr ac t? A I*o., I don't know tha * . Q Contracts. HA I don't know that as .a fact, no f~\ Do you Knc i. f 0 'Ci ~ v had any i nv 0 * Ve*". 'Z j. U V; i. ^ T. SAf;o'-S S. GALE t 2 USE ELL. C tV ;.*'. PRODUCED -83 MT-PWHD-016085 r n f^ contract yard, the private yard building a government or Navy ship? A No, I don't. Q Do you know if they had any involvement with the' Navy shipyards? A I don't know it as a fact, no. Q Do you know who is in charge of that department now? A No, I don't. i've heard the name, but I don't know, Q Do you - know if there exists any document setting forth or defining the responsibility of that section or department? ' A The only one I know of is, if it is -- I'm not sure if it talks to that section. when I worked at MAV5EC, there was a -- in the phone book there was a brief description of what a departm-ent or office did, but the department or office could consist of several divisions, branches, ' sections, units. -- Q V.'he.u you were in the coatings unit , did you have a formal job description or position description? A Yes . PRODUCED JM ~ S3 MT-PWHD-016086 n r Do vou know where that Is? 1m O , Q V.'hat is your recollection or understanding of your position or Job description when you were in the coatings unit? - A To work with insulation materials, try to keep then -- to try to provide the best insulating materials for-- both thermal and acoustical insulation materials, for use on board ships. ; Q Do you recall if that job position included any of the procedures you have already described -today for the drafting o: vision of a military or federal soecification? n A I don't think they went into that detail, no. Q Did you have any contacts with the kaval nuclear engineering organization? A Yes . Q v/ould you describe those for us, please. A Then I was in water treatment, we used to provide them with the information that we developed and maintained cn water treatment:, and they provided us with their water treatment manual. . Q Did you nave any contact with them concerning produced JtA - W MT-PWHD-016087 CO Ul C' n r insulation products or the use and application of insulation products? A Q ies, a llttxe. lould you describe that for us, please. A asaar V/ell, there was a letter that cane to us referring to the status cf insulation materials, and we responded to it. ' Q "hen v;as that, hr. Murad? A I don't know the exact date, * i__i r. vs e. a roughly -- roughly a year or sc after I was -- I started, which would make it late '70's. ' Q VJhen you say -- '' A Late in the year 1970. . Q /'hen you say concerning the status , what do you mean by that? ' A '.veil, the -- essentially, we were asking what the status cf insulation materials vvere that we were i. n w ns process of improving, primarily from an asbestos- containing material, high-temperature insulation. >id this concern health at all, health and asbestos' 11- ney ccteu .tea. SAUCERS. GALS a RUSSELL JM - 83 MT-PWHD-016088 r r r~ 137 Q irocuct This concerned "he performance aspects of the I believe so. Did you prepare a response? es Do vou recall how you went about or what you die m W J. wk w ;o precare that resccn: ve them the status of what we v;e: doing This would be in regard to military specifica- tions? A Yes, it includes specifications, right-. Q What did you tell them, specificaliy, when you say you told them''what we were doing"? Just actually what did you tell them? A Oh, boy. I don't know if I can recall ail the details. I essentially, as I recall, said that we were about at the point that we thought we would be at that time, based on -- I think there was a -- gee, I think there was a piece of paper, a letter or perhaps that instruction that we referred to earlier, which they in their letter referred to. .hey cue: er we were mawing progress ci v w ;. _ . c. SALTERS. GALE b PL'ESELL RODUCED JM-83 MT-PWHD-016089 r r that we had expected to, and I pointed out that we were. This was propress towards sore goal? Towards reducing the asbestos content in hinh- tercerature insulation rr.ateriais. Did they at any tir.e provide you v/ith input as ;o hov; to achieve thU i ~ ~ *i 'O ho, not that I recall mr. ;iov;i:;ski 1 n y* re* rc> ora. (Discussion off the record) (Tir.e noted: 4 : 53 o'clock p.n.) HEMRY GiOROii M-r.AD Iv.'orn to and subscribed before r.e uay of 10 7I 0/ * PRODUCED JM -83 MT-PWHD-016090 r n 1 .a U L* Henry George Murad Mr. Jelley Mr. Christie Mr. Kenny Mr. Mont stream Mr. Moher * ` M. * w Q .L 1 ** S Mr. Coyne Mr-.. Hov.-d defeud a: its ' ( MURAD) FOR IDEUTIFIC AT I O',' EXHIBITS 1 Copy of MAVSHIPSIMS7 5100.26, dated February 9, 1971, con sisting of 9 pages Copy of HIE 1-132210, headec "Insulation Felt, Thermal, Asbestos Fiber," dated July 3, 1962, consisting of 16 capes FACE 7 64 5. 32 26 ' 122 129 133 PAGE 68 101 PRODUCED JM - 83 MT-PWHD-016091 n tnd: ; .*.w . .r-.-J ) ;o:;t Copy of SS-C-OOlcbD, headed "Cloth, Thread 1 Tape - Asbes tos (h'avy Ships ), " dated June 19, 1962, consisting of 11 pages 103 J i-' - T; T^^TrT, x ~1'/t '--j---.'--i . , erirr. Arr.enoran; .9 hniips , M o une x1, consisting 01 ij (' ss --p .4 -.yj 2 Copy of MIL canaarc. , oje ( C '*1 ^ c ch ierr.a- ^r.s; 1st ion Requi v o *-i d yi-:i v o :r r.a- chinery 1 Pi -- 'i Cic ; ^ o' ci i wi " c.ry 0 , i^oo, consisting 0: _ cages Copy of. MA7SX0S ?-52, vdiur.e III, ho. 3, dated August 19^6, consisting of 3 pages 207 of h'AVEXPCS F-52 , vcluri' U CLi * -A X - 7 1 ? v i . consisting 02 :ooy of Cl * C t a w j ^ dated 195b ' C, I .-'O' .iticn, io; 174 177 173 1 83 MT-PWHD-016092  n ----- Q Pa.T9 S3 191 p --n *J7 \ i l$ -ZJ PRODUCED JM - 83 MT-PWHD-016093 r w --_v ^ <- s - r t f' r '*j r. ^ nu j-w -*"xv a. v r - o j..i - ^ -..i w ^ . -----r------------------------------------------------------------------------------- x ^ j_t ."tw i G-ji.--n.nij ^rt.'i-.C*^ j-x*_ *-*2juj. w-c> r* ------------rr T ^tj ? v cf ' pi -versus- ` nm tr * TT TD ' * dV,?'**T^7 -------------- --------- --x -. Plaintiffs, : : nf ^ * . Defendants. : Civxu r.ction no. 11 -- 1t - o 2 7 ^ On'sj *< j e u d. , Plaintiffs -versus- r-v-- --n. .-ill-/ r1 rr < T "r OiAxwO r/*\ -- O t' vrt 3 _ j6 t- ,,1 cvX , Civil Action Mo. H-Tc-iS^ n -ontinueu aeocs it ion of C-t ;anen cursuant .d 1 curmen ^ ctx ^u. v i * e Federal Rules ( / /> i,* v, il Procedure, at^ uiie I CJ i . v_/* _ U ^1 ' PRODUCED JM-83 I MT-PWHD-016094 U .) r n 1 s^ri uw* : Todd Building, 'Washington, D. , before Roy orov;n, a Register-?': Professional Reporter and Rotary Public vrithin anc or the State of Connecticut, on raescay, May 22, 1975 , commencing at nine-fifteen o'clock in the forenoon. cOo pearances : .b J ^ Hi O W o Attorneys for the Plaintiff: 99 Park Asvenue Rev; York, Rev; York 10315 ay T7~ TV of counsel Mcu'AnARr. uc LG WD , mRo . Attorneys for the Defendant Corporation ' 102 Oak Street lartford, Connect icut General Dynamics TV/ . 7ih. jLT -ZTj.T Jit H. HOV.D, nkjQ of Counsel PRODUCED JM - 83 MT-PWHD-016095 r r ADoearances (Cor.t'd): DIE r. u Attorneys for she Defendant American Asbestos Textile Ccrporat icr.. ' One Constitution Plaza '. Hartford, Connecticut 05103 pv R ou-ji-fliiO, u o Q . , of Counsel ' ' ~T r' " * 7 f r>r */ * L VJ .L * i 'A /rtnh j rr T ` i 'T k_/ &; o 1 Attorneys for the Defendant Hague Picher, 195 Church Street . - P. 0. Box 183S Mew Haven, Connecticut o0 C ^~ -" rw - Inc. 3 V 3. ROBERT JELLEY, ESQ., of Counsel ? G . MOuTSTRun.-. , noQ. Attorney for the Defendant Eastern Refractories Company, Inc. '' 33 Pratt Street Glastonbury, Connecticut 06033 R & rOLI , uSQS. . 1 n e y s for the Defendants Johns-Manvilie Corporation, Johns-Manvilie Sales Corporation and Johns-Manville Products Corporation . 39 Lafayette Street . Hartford, Connecticut 0cl06 -and- Counsel ,* n: C cr:: *: PRODUCED MT-PWHD-016096 r Acoearances (Cont'd): jam: Johns-.'-'anvi lie Corporation Ken-Carvi Ranch Denver, Colorado DANAKSR, LEV;IS 3= TAMONSY, ESQS . Attorneys for the Defendant Corporation 39 Russ Street Hartford, Connecticut 06105 Pittsburgh-Ccrning . FREDERICK S. TEDF3RD, ESQ., of Counsel HOWARD, KOHL7, SPRAGUE a FITEG5RALD , ESQS. Attorneys for the Defendants K. K. Porter Co., Inc., and Che Southern Asbestos Co. 237 Buckingham'Street Hartford, Connecticut CoiOo ' EY: JAMES M. KOHER, ESQ., . -ana- AMDS, ALDERSOM, MARKS i MILLER, ESQS. ' ll20 Fidelity Building Richmond, Virginia 23219 3Y: ALBERT D. 3UG0, JR., ESQ., of Counsel n PRODUCED JM - 83 MT-PWHD-016097 r r r 195 ADoearances (Ccnt'd): DH. ;j Jv t Gc Forney: the Defendant Raytestos Inc. . 20 Middle Street Bridgeport, Connecticut 0660^ , i AM: > ^-jc of Counsel an 3 i 1. \X n ..ij'O-ii . J Attorneys'for the Defendant One Financial Flaca T* i -Cii. ^ u ^ X ord, Connecticut C610 Shook 1- * J-ifl , - 3 of Counsel rletcher <o torneys fc -he '. 0. Box 1I0S ) CC -- * * ~ r v, Q v* ^ o * Defendant V.'estinghcuse Electric Bridgeport, Connecticut 06604 BY: FREDERICK H. CHRISTIE, * n ^ 3 of Counsel KEH1JY & bRIKHaR, ESQ3 . Attorneys for the Defendant UNARCO n v ri n q ore,. ,, cL a. w X Connecticut OtIDO OI \ 'n , bbO. , of Counsel MT-PWHD-016098 n n Appearances (Cont'd): COOLEY, SCULLY u DCLLILG, E5QS. . Attorneys for the Defendant Cvens-Ccrn n^^ -w/ - ; re et iartford, Connecticut 06103 . * T ' T/~ ^7 ' -Tt * * ' T*s * * f*> 7: - TT c ^ cf^ourseu . Z. - i. 3 . r. i J k j ^ t Attorneys' 'for the ' ' ^ YT ' * Yf * ~ LT t * v.J O** 3 o - C Huaiiw JC* vUiS r.. ^ 1 Lewis Street Hartford, Connecticut 05103 DAVID of Counsel ana- Attorneys for tr Defendant United 1rr.e r i c a Department of Justice .- Tort Section, Civil Division Safeway Building 'Jashinston, D. C. 200^0 States of Also Present dale. zi:::-:zr Unites > art .vent o: Uashingtcn, D . C . PRODUCED JM-83 MT-PWHD-016099 vo on r r Pi j 1L A D nsvmj ceen previously duly sworn, was examined ana testa.lea ^*n w * V> ( as *o -- -- ^ f --v ' U wJ 5Y MR. HOL'D: . Q Mr. Murad, I think you explained to us yesterday that the piping code or piping department nad v: it nan its area of responsibility sections which actually applied asbestos insulation. Is that correct, sir? A hell, ne -- yes, tnat's oasical^y They wrote uo MIL standard 'estcr.iic.s fc; that, and they cited the various specifications of material: to be used for lagging pipe. Q Do you know where this pips lagging v;as done? A 'fell, it was done a he shinyarcs. Q Were they Navy shipyards? A Navy shipyards for overhaul and repair. Q Did you at any time have occasion to observe any of these O w ^ ions or un nstallinr r-\ o n nsui ot) i. on oroauct s ? I believe I did see at least cns -- ADDUCED Ji - 83 MT-PWHD-016100 r~ n r Ib3 -- as I recall. I can't recall the exact time, but I visited ' : time for a variety of reasons and v:ent on board some ships that v:sre in the process of being overhauled or repaired, and I saw various installation procedures of ail kinds of insulation. '..'as this on board a ship 0 A Yes. 'das this a surface ship or a ri I ..as on -- I've se en wo r>; 0 and submari ne ships. r\ 'A. done ? How many occasions have you A I can't give you a speci fic 0 A number of times 0 r -- A _ A number of times. yes . Q Can you give us any ' idea as it in 9o9, when you first went *_* Lr the cr sor.etir.s u.ater? _ A Sometime later. Q Can you tell us what you actually observed? a .. SANDinS. GALE PUFSELL PRODUCED JM - 83 MT-PWHD-016101 r n Q For example -- A -- men -- everybody called themselves mechanics - installing insulation cn bulkheads, hulls, piping, c.n boilers Did you see any ;he preformed pipe insulation being installed? .A I think I did. ' q V.:hat did you observe in that regard, the instalia- ;ion of the oreformed oioe insulation? "o me it seemed like a simple proc af* n now aid they co it lc did vou see? A As I recall, t c t he best of my reccllec -ion, th simply take the preformed pipe insul at ion out of a- OOX y set it on a -- cn the pipe to ce in 5 U -l cit ed, and secure -L ^ V _-i V V1-1 either 'wires or tape, and somet imes they would put lagging cloth on it. Q . How v;ould they affix the lagging cloth to the preformed pipe insulation? A n With a glue q 'with a glue Right. r\ Would t his a L H 3 r J: PRODUCE Ji - 83 MT-PWHD-016102 r n r 2QC There are two orocedures. Tou can have a pre -- v;ns they call a prewet cloth, or pretreated -- what id* is . it is airea treated with an adhesive, and you v;et i 5 '..'hen you were observing this operation, did you see anyone wearing a respirator? . A I really don't know. 3 V.'ere you wearing a respirator? . A 'Then I saw it? . es Do von recall if the: d -no5pc. r,: e-v- this ooeraticn was being performed was isolated in any way, partitioned in any way? A On some occasions they v;ere. It depended, really, on'the work that they were doing, I think, but in some cases they were. Q Do you knew whether or net other trades, meaning a person-doing something ether than the lagging operation. *w*'*e. g V*f^0*~* .oe ~*a ' r"*'~Gri M.ruuj.tLt'iCti ci.i ina w 6 c.-- j V,*cL 3 c.ppj.ZS's I don't knew. ! t may nave seen. 'sally don't r. ^ i r t p i j t c r i i PROKfCEi MT-PWHD-016103 r w J. O V ai ** 41 1 excuse ne. a Cat b> O ir.e oonoc " nsits.iIv bst'CwSn l^c9 5.r.ci *72? 7: c. p "Q1 .es. r:v Ufv.^ . a_a- i'i.l * l ( I 4^ You cannot narrow the tine period down any f,urther? Q It wasn't in '53. It was after '70, and -- Could you oelJL us if it was before or after 1 /.nen were trn star, a arc s? !SKA standards no into effect? MR. KERRY: Decanter. - . MR. LEVY: Tine emergency standard went into effect on Decenber 7, 1971n -i-t) i s rr.y. Decenber 7th? That's -- ro: VO v* o { ;rdj it is ny understanding one energencv stanuaru went in-o e: in Decenber of 1! '71. -- /1. Do vcur cuestion '--'.WO I. . . : LL 0 I MT-PWHD-016104 r r r~ mr. hcv.'d . r *7 7 < -* .".any of t 3 7'i.'a"S n o fore. I vis I know I visited Charleston in Eebruary of '7u, but geo to see much. because I t ecame sick. so I ended u hospital there. It had not hing to do with asbestos I don't -- I can 't tell you whether any vre r a f t ^ r D ;hat I actually observed that or not. Certainly, I was on board shio* 3 after t<hat 'oni \ c answer ms time to tne installation n_ rocedures tne men v;orwing vritn tne pretcrmea pipe insulation which v:e have just discussed, do you have any recollection as to the ventilation facilities cn ship board at that time? MR. nOV.'IHSKI: Excuse me , Had lei oh. May it also be understood that your examination is limited to visits v.'hich did not relate to the. audit or inspection of Havai shipyards, about which we talked briefly yesterday and I instructs: the witness not to answer? MR. HCV.'D: Yes. It was my understanding, PRODUCED JM -83 MT-PWHD-016105 r r r 203 instructing him net tc answer questions concerning his visits to the shipyards to see if was being enforced, and I think hr. Murad' is talking about the time oeriod before she CSKA standard, which certainl y would be b efere the instruction was oublished KISKi : Fair enough. i just cia not want any confusion. .in : 3 Is that understood, hr. Murad? A '..'ell, I believe the -- didn't you just CSKA standard case out in December of '71? J' Q Yes. MR. KERRY: That 'was February of '71. A The instruction is dated February of '71, as I recall, in looking at it yesterday. , . Q Did you observe any ventilation equipment on board the ships where this preformed pipe insulation was being installed? A I really don't remember. '> SAUPEES. GAPE E- RUSSELL PRODUCED JM - MT-PWHD-016106 r n n instaliat ion of the toiler type oi insUiaticn. ucuj.g you tell us v;hat tine period you observed this type of insulation being installed? ' A I can't definitive it any better than I have ' be fore Sometime after 1962? Sometime after -- after '52, yes Tell us wh'at you observed, please. - 'dell, with resard to boiler insulation, I simply saw that the laggim: was-th inev snowec me -- no* am. not sure if I actually saw the lagging being installed on toilers. I did see the lagging on the boilers, and the person that was guiding me through showed me how it had been done. 5 This person that was guiding you through -- do yo; know what organisation he was with? A I believe he was a representative of shop 56- Usually I dealt with shop 55 in the shipyards, and they would -- Q what type of insulation, to insulate a boiler? - T' 6 V V,' ,ne t d .*. d o PRODUCED JM - 83 MT-PWHD-016107 n r n temperature insulation, and it oil contain asbestos ` " a s ` block-tvoe insulation? ..o . a w - n e i a u g ^ n y , tne -- The cloth on the outside? The batting. Yes, the cloth and the batting. l* Is essen:ia:.y ICxi 0 Did you see They call it an asbestos felt, bein.t installed or did you see i after it v;as installed? A I.'o , I saw i' ;er it was already installed, a: i v:as snov.r. now tne wares were tv:istea to secure Uu; just the final product, after the fact. - Apart from the preforme: ' ipe insulation and the boiler-type insulation you have just explained, did you see any other equipment being insulated or did you see any other types of asbestos insulation being applied? A. ho, not asbestos -- not that I recall of' any asbestos insulation, no. ' Q That was your purpose ir. going on board ship to observe the boiler insulation and the pipe insulation which you nave discussed? A Usually, it was in conjunction with another ,, r.- at l1 j cTiG T * .> .T* *. .ui -- ^ ji PRODUCED JM -83 MT-PWHD-016108 r n e? `"s *-- ^ thing to ciO) oc^ *0Uoj.y 3 v,*ith either iri5u 1 ati0 n or 3one-- thin toy~ *w< V iCij. fC/ **, 3.3 r 8 j. 01 e O y, ~ iu . i cl u- j cl * * 1. ^ -- c U'v.n d i w v le time out v o t isit the chip primarily for my own education, to see hew o h material s waS about', writing about, working at' at t he desk, were actually used in practice. n\ Other than the H.I1 standard which has beer, marked for identification, are you aware cf any other documents containing instructions or procedures for the installation of asbestos insuiatio ^r^ducts? i 2.V 5. -L ^^ nn > rat v.'OUiu c ^ ~ *"1: ] 2 1. That's it, Havai chip Technical Hanual,. Do you know to whom this is issued? It is issued to all the ships and shipyards. Would this te Wavy shipyards? I.'avy shipyards, yes. Q Do you know if it is issued to a government contract type yard; in ether words, a yard building -- A It is accessible to them, yes. . Q How w ce accessi; U. V. Ci ~~ - f you know? A I'm not sure hew it is right nnooww * At one time anyone could no down and -- I wa: C1l ~ U*2* U>-> jf pO. *' ^ /w1 Wr*\ : jm 0 r 0 MT-PWHD-016109 r r r down and buy then frcr the fcvernr.ent Printing Office. Then scretire -- oh, I'm not cure exactly when -- six or seven years, eight, ray's e nine years ago, she distribution v,-s tightened a little to al-LOv at to ce race avaa^acle to these people who had a legitirr.ate need. So, certainly, anyone v;ho was verging cn Yaval ships had that need. Q To you know if there existed -- and I an talking about the tire period when you v/ere in coatings -- any procedure whereby this dequrent would be distributed to a contract shipyard? This is if you know. A I don't know the exact procedure.' Q You don't? . I don't know' the exact procedure. Q But you do know, if someone wanted it, they could go and buy it? , A- That wasmy understanding, yes. Q During your tenure in the coatings unit, did you ever see ar.y publ icatio health, the i * 8. v ^ Bureau ' A I don 11 rec no . You h n * * o c. v PIGOUCED JM -83 MT-PWHD-016110 r. n r /") o scification is drafted and revised. Do you know the origin of a military specification? I an talking about asbestos cnsu^aticn > * s_> wi 'w S . -an yoi ;eil us hov; they cane about , where they cane frcr:;? Dot with -- no, I can't. . What is your understanding, your best under- S*" Pi v> n\ - v-. as to the origin? Weil, I have worked on other specifications, . developed then iron one s-arc. 'One specifically I recall; v:crksd -with a "aval laboratory to develop a specification, Q What specif ic at ic; A That was one on t: : are-i a gating soar, ues ct TWe singly d escribed the test ; definitively enough so i it could be made a part of a p; rocurement and bought from industry. Q So, then, what is purpose or reason for a nil it. -? f*-T r* o t* ^ on ^ A To describe a nat want to pro c u t* ^ n< . . i i ^t.*W ^-- u* o * * W^ * Well, sc that the t-* <-- ^ v..iv '~ -> * rw ...ivC. -- j! ^,, _- u^ *iC.w W W ^ ^ PRODUCED JM -83 MT-PWHD-016111 r n r a particular purpose. 3 Is this a classification type of procedure? .A It involves classification, yes. You have to describe the material that you '..ant, certainly. ' Q Have you ever heard the term of 3?? A S3?? Ho, not that I -- it doesn't ring a tell rimht now. Q You have told us what a Mil standard is. ,`.na; is your understanding of the origin of a I'll standard, military standard? . ' A Military standard, to my understanding, is Qocum.e.nt tnat oescnoes certain soec: may be used in an operational situation; namely, to use it for the purpose intended-, of those specifications. Dos o U.iS ** -- Li standard include ir.stt. * U. w v a. cr.s as to how the product is to be used or applied? A Some of them do, yes. Q Do you know the origin or how the military standards came about? A Ho. <<; m re:-ara PRODUCED JM - 83 MT-PWHD-016112 r r r this asbestos elimination program -- those are my words -- hr. Cherobrier's efforts to remove or decrease the asbestos content of insulation croducts -- I think you said that you sOiVe; :e Drobiem by reducing ascestcs content in batting and boiler insulation. ' Did you indicate that :es j that v;as-- I believe we did reduce the.-- C* C'-r'Cet, cified wherever1ocssible that tyre of asbestos- insulation which had the lower or -lowest asbestos < con t-v.'S couI.c. C-uU3.i*y uss 3 csp8r;C.ari on w! soeei ' - 1 ? ''4 :ourse. . u.orr.e had only tv;o uVpes; so: t: v * i i ;wo tyoes. 5 How soon after the asbestos elimination program, for lack- of better terms, was this accomplished, what you have described in regard to the batting and the boiler insulation? Is this something you were able to do right away, or did * * J. O vuQ h Q 7U ^ n O No, it took some time. ..as a soecificaticn change necessary? _o ao t.n PRODUCED JM - 83 MT-PWHD-016113 r r- r C J. - ;ypes of materials, identified in the.-specif!cation. Q So v;hat die: you dc to accomplish Ohio chan re? , v;e -workec with the ctr.er p *n n. .nvoxvea to try to reduce -- to select those types of asbestos- ' containing materials that were lev; in asbestos, relatively low in asbestos, to be those that -were selected in standard -- o *- ap vn-s, aarc coy. Q So I take it, then, that you revised or change: the MIL standard so as to^provide 'for the use of the products containing less asbestos? A That's correct. . Q Do you knov; vrhen you did that? . A Tell, we could chec k it by locking at the MIL standard. I not i ced yesterday that they had the -- someone had 'written i n v;he n the C and D revisions -- 0 So it would be one of those revisions? A Right. Q You have indicated that certain codes cr department s are in voived in the change cr revision of a specificati on, and I third: you explained that department or code 61C5, safety , is involved in specification revision; is what corr-ec _u *.y PRODUCED JM-83 MT-PWHD-016114 r r n d -d A well, I don't think I cited them as necessarily being involved. They -ay be involved, depending on the nat,ure of the specification. Vis would work with any h'avy code that we felt had a legitimate interest in that specification, and also v.-e'd work with people outside the Davy if they, too, had an interest in the specification. Q 3o , then, code 6115 'would become involved if yc, determined that they had an interest? j_t wasn 't really our determination. who would make that de A The initiator of a **\i dd r.t ~r. ow v> -- uM07v ' Ort - to spec, depending on the nature of it, -would e r t a u n u v make that -- would make the initial chop -- Q Determination? ;\ -- determination, you might s; Really, it would be up to 6l2t,_the specification people. Q They v;ouid determine whether or not 6105, safety, would become involved in the particular soecification ' revision? A they would ask the person initiating the change his views cn it, but 'they woulo reauly c * r o Uiss wno wcu. PRODUCED JM - 83 MT-PWHD-016115 r- r r 213 ,j Jo you recai. any instance where b'lQ-j, the Gaiety code, became involved in he drafting or revision of she 20 on pane i o: one mi-icary scanaara v;e -went over yesterday? Aould you cake a minute and look a: that page 1 again, please. . ' '' VO A As I recall, we did check with personnel in > p. 23 nnu 1 mber of chess. '.-.'nether they actually -- wheel.; _ was oral or in writing - m not sure. hi.Q/"s'i.ir uSa .**-~U*>->iw*? ~wi.Vj - *>fU" was oral, certainly. '.-.'hither v;e also had written consents from then I'm not sure. ' . Many of tnerr. -- or sev: O* . 3. u lS5.Su were from che fire hazards standpoint. Ed Chercbrier with Larry marina on asbestos. arry" Farina was in 6105' a :.e was ir. ciCp. . . - I didn't' talk with Larry much about it. Ed handled that most of the time. Q Jo you recall the names of any other people in C105, safety, with whom you dealt or with whore your department dealt in the specification revision? A Certainly Ler. leoca was the too person. ouit you s:.-e__ n: 1Siwc PRODUCED JM - 83 MT-PWHD-016116 r- n r 21* 1 ow. * ' L--e-o-t--a j I Do you knov; 1^0 , r neota is stacionec toaay? To my knov/le; i po */* ^ TT ^ >* - rt 1 be lie%'e he Do you recal that code with whom you ,,t or your department dealt? a rv Yes, we used M -r>a hazards, and there wc wo or three other oeocle that we dealt with on various materia. Mens chat had safety requirements or had a safety aspect to t: Q Mr. Murad, you explained to : to w i * * '/ concerned with shipyard resources and played a role in drafting the instruction which we have marhed as Exhibit 1 for this deposition. . o Oi;cu :orrect, sir? j-v _ i 6S - 2 By "resources" do you mean the manpower or the people working in a shipyard? A Manpower and ecuioment. . HiS WOUld men installing insulation on a shipyard? S G.-.LE; i PtILL PRODUCED JM-83 MT-PWHD-016117 vo l vn r .'.O'-ii c n - s vj ------------ - ;at ti.v.e'. meaning reoruary u^7-, wner. t.ne Xoji.l , during my tenure, 07 had responsibility .jaw shicyaras . r. na t no tt a > - - v--- ~ n "no sr.icya: e res: visors of Shipbuilding in the period that -- v;eil, from, to '72, .:hen I v;as invclvcad. 7 'das there any connection, if you hncv;, c etv;een code 07 and SUPSKIPS? .no uu tx...e , ow.i o .{njo_ Q Do you knov; if there is one today? r Q `vould you describe that connection. A 'dell, 07 has responsibility for Supervisor of dr.iobuiIcinr todav. . - Do vou know when 07 accuired that respons: It v;as aocroui.v.ateiy ' 7-J. ,eiieve it v;as vnnen -- ascu: PRODUCED JM -83 MT-PWHD-016118 r r r integrated v:ith DRD to become MAVSuA, in that tirr.e period, That happened in July of i > believe. Q Mr. Murad, referring to page v.' i c "n has been 7, v.-ould me if SUPSMIPS ^ * i - tr , to your V.'hich exhibit? MR. HOV.'J: 1, the instruction. vieil t as cere, co The standard Mavy distribution list symbol is. PM12, SUPSHT? It's been crossed off. I don't kr.ov;; that doesn't mean anything to me. Anybody can take the original, cross it oJ and take a copy, or take a copy, cross it off and make another copy. It doesn't mean anything,. Q But on the original SUPSHIPS was included in thn distribution list? A It appears that v:ay to me, yes. MR. Off the record. ' (Discussion off the record) D V- i\. v T ** , U PRODUCED JM - 83 MT-PWHD-016119 r r n 21' yesterday, that was , as I understand It, v;Ithin the controo 1l -- ixcuse For the record, cn parses 7 and 8 of (Murad) Exhibit 1 -- on pate 7, under ' "Distribution," SUFSHI? is shown, and has one or two lines drav:n through it; on page 3, under "Copy to," SVPSMIPS is written in in handwriting, .'in. ECHV.'ARTZ : Let me state on the record that exhibit c*ame from my file yesterday, at sor.eone's request, and I have no idea as tc, - sitting here today , v;ithout checking my i ^ r\ > index, from, where that document came or b; v*. . . O... the markings to which hr. howinski has ju referred were oiaced. MR. hole Off the record. [Discussion off the record) BY MR. HOL'D: 0 hr. Murad, dc you knew.if any of the manufacturers or distributors of asbestos insulation products carticioated in the survey that you have described that was concucte: Ed Chercbrier's cea ^ooi> a r ..ifr , ;5itL produced JM - 83 MT-PWHD-016120 C n rn 213 survey are you tauwing aocvi .he survey ..r. unerooner' s ner. conducted, I think Mr. Murad has testified it beran in 1333, started in Philadelphia. 3Y MR. HOMD: Do you recall ,ne vou errunr t: k x es . a I don't -- to my knowledge, they didn't participate -- I 'm .not sure what you mean by the word "participate." Did they actually go out and gather information? . .0 Or did they provide any input to the people making the survey or -working with the survey, if you know? A I don't knew. Q Do. you recall ever dealing with a Mr. Barnhart? A Barnhart? The name seems familiar, but I can't place him at the moment. Maybe if you give me some more information I might. _ <y .-V U dvh iZ 's.ck y - -* O... * i -- `rv sooke to him by chor.e produced JM - 83 MT-PWHD-016121 r n r Ci recall, Barnhart v;as cere or less the fecal noint for UIMA. He was the spokesman? The executive secretary -- I'm. not sure mat a as title v* a s , b1ut he dealt v;ith -- I think he signed c: letters that ca us . n \Vr.p orc; concern? , they ccncernec 's position on :cn ;s or other insulation natters. '.-.'hat other ir.sulaticr. natters v: > a, . .x, a; tuiw she n.en.bers o: HIM-, v/ere ccr.cernea v;atn art has they cbvi OU: ' felt that v;e had sorts concern, interest cr possibly son.e control Can, you think of anything besides or revision of a -ilitary specification that H IMA had interest in or contacted you? _ V an't re cal 1 a specific one that didn't have m you think of any other issue, other than th< - J 1 J *- a v.-, pecificatxcn, v;mcn was. tr.e subject o: a 83 MT-PWHD-016122 r- r n 0 A I can't thin/, of one offhand. ' Of course, ail the manufacturers were interested in the asbestos situation, ani they would, as I mentioned before, visit or call and give their company's position on the situation. Primarily those people who had asbestos-containing insulation products too'/ the viev; that there was no tetter choice at the time. Representatives cf companies that v:ere selling their non asbestos, high-temperature insulation materials took the viev; that their materials tccuid do every bit as good and didn't present any other kinds of problems. C Do you recall any instance -- ;*R . ICC HER : Excuse me, Kadleigh* Could I have that last answer read back, . please. . (The answer was read.) Zjx i'.R . j iii D . Q Do you recall t view of any particular company company ma;cuf ac during asces tcs products? You have told us trsnsr's.ilv *.;hat the viev; of the manufacturers was. _ The ones that I recall -- you could list them, those that sold asbestcs-cc r.ta inir.g products in the one and tno; wnere you eitner sold or Si'.SAL a K.JSSEL wduced - 83 MT-PWHD-016123 n 'n n 221 to break into the market of selling non asbestos-containing materials that were supposed to be -- at least purported to be. -- high -- suitable for high-ter.perature insulation took the other view. Q Do you recall any instance when a manufacturer of asbestos products came to you with a nonasbestos substitute? I can't recall, no. Did you ever dteai with a Mr. Heard, Sanford neara; ISS. ' o Do you know what "'company he was with? H Let's see now. Owens-Corning, I believe. Q . Do you recall any conversations with Mr. Heard or Mr. Heard's office concerning the substitution of asbestos-free products for asbestos-containing products? A V/ell, we certainly talked on the subject of that her insulation materials They noted fiberglass same job. I'm; not sure someone eo.se mentioned that calcium s same job as ast estos. He rr.av have. remen. o tnat's -- sir..ee they s I don't PMDUCE JM-83 MT-PWHD-016124 r n r 222 oroduets, I'd have to change -- if that were the case, it is a contradiction, but I don't know if he said it cr not. It i s * r o ~i? ~i o ^ w Q I take it, then, you have no specific recollectic: of Mr. Heard or anyone in his office suggesting; the change from an asbestos-containing product to an asbestos-free . product? A I can't recall specifically, no. . q Do you recall discussing this with anyone from Johns-H.anvllle? -' A Well, Burt Tower from Johns-Hanvilie would come by from time to time. He was the company rep that came by quite often. Q Do you know where his office was? A Somewhere in Virginia. I believe it was some where in Arlington,- but I don't knew exactly where it was. I've never visited his office. He always came to our office Q Do you recall having any conversations with Mr. Tower regarding the substitution of asbestos-free products for asbestos-containing products? A V.'e may have spoken in general terms. I would S Ci ' 5 y C w d b j ulu ID'. a ^ w *"i IT* Ci w C.'.-.C ^ mr r J MT-PWHD-016125 r r r 2<: recall a specific substitute that was made available. a Did you have any conversations with anyone from Raybestcs-Manhattan regarding this issue? A People from Raybestos-Mar.hattan came in f: to time. I shouldn't say from time to fW- J-!, *s3i j rI*nVi'. J* * n - n v. f u*- come in verv often. I know they came in once or twic jo you recall the names of anyone ;.m nayoes" Manhatt an? Mo, I don't. , Do you recall any conversations with the: - " i i ' y"\ me to mind at the moment, no. n Do you recall any conversations with anyone from Porter or Southern Asbestos -- MR. MOriER': I am going to object, Hadleigh. Concerning what? And isn't this repetitious of what happened yesterday? MR. EOV.'D: You won't let me finish the question. If you 1( do .not think it is repetitious. rinish the cuestio.n. PRODUCED JM-83 MT-PWHD-016126 r r n 3Y . HO:.D : Q Did you have any conversations v;ith anyone from H.` K. Porter or Southern Asbestos concerning the of an assestcs-free insulation p_ roauc *` w Ch i i Ch s'oestos- containing insulation product? A V.'e certainly talked with H. K. Porter.. I don't recall, again, whether they gave us any kind of a substitute They brought in cther`materials, many of which were -- at 1 QttcQiof'Tw' they said had a lov either a 1 cvrev ascestcs center**1^U O\J -vt resulted in a lovrer concent rat ion of asoestos fibers-in the immediate environment, the atmosphere. can 'recall a substitute being talked about. How did you know that the product resulted in a lower concentration of fibers in the atmosphere? A It-was based or. what they said. Q Did they show you any tests or studies? A The tests, to my mind, -were not very valid. Q Do you know by whom these tests were performed? A They were performed by K. K. Porter, either the!: people or maybe people who they hired to -- you know, on a contract basis. . T V.'hy do you say one rests were not 'valid, to your PRODUCED JM - 83 MT-PWHD-016127 r n r' 225 .nd? , To rr.y mind, they weren't very rigorous tests r : j n Q r> ' . j" -> p - wei; rr.y aecerrr.i nation. Q Do you recall any conversations with anyone front' Eagle Picher regarding the substitution of ar. asbestos-free product for an asbestos-containing product? A Yes . . Q Do you recall when the discussion or discussions took place? # A Oh, well, Eagle Picher people cane in from tine to ti.v.e fairly often, not so much in the beginning of ny tenure but, oh, I'd say toward the middle or so; and, once they made the initial contact, they would cone k or call. They had a material that was a nigh-temperature insulation material that I believe was cited in one of the federal specs and they claimed could do the job. I had some reservations about it. Q '.'hat were those? A 'well, material to me seemed like it w di - * i. c. ^ -l : ana would chip easily and break off- and result in particles, some of which could get into the atmosphere. That's the way it. ...c * -) C* ' t. 1 1 n 8. -l -L V *.;-r-'Lr --0 GALE b EL133Ei-L PRODUCE -83 MT-PWHD-016128 C'r r :25 test of it -- you know, I took the opportunity on that one surface ship test that I mentioned earlier, and v;e used thei: product on that ship. C. Do you know if Eagle richer had performed' any ' tests or studies to determine whether the product they were recommending released asbestos fibers into the atmosphere? A Asbestos fibers? iSS. ' A I don't think their material had any asbestos in V.'as this an asbestos-free or a lower content? MR. KohLY: Let him finish the answer, please. Let him finish the answer. rpTj-r* r . '.Ui.<uOO: UKa^ . To my knowledge, their material had no asbestos. iz was asoestos-.ree. Q Did you change a standard or specification so as :o cer~.it the use of this substitute croduct? mace no ii.lr.EO `goes , as 'ecall, that already described that material Do vou recall v:hat chat soecification was? a.'tea van, at; .... anu produced M - 83 MT-PWHD-016129 r r r c. C ( on frorr. oj *A u that 1? 440 v;as it? I ' v. not 3Ur9 Do you see t hat specificat ion on the list -- ho . wait a rr.inute. -- included in Defendants' 7? - V * V - +- 7 v. hat x-* S x* -^t- *.7 ^. - c ^ * ho, I don't see it on there. I don't think r.e ; that v;as Defendan; S 3 lAfilC. w 0 * iou oo nr.oot see tr.at specific .,o . Do vou know if the hiL standard 7.6- v-as revise: so as to inciuae that speci_scat ion? A I don't knov.'. Q I take it, then, you had no rol e in a revision of the standard so as to include that HH' sp ecification? A That's .right, I don' t believe I did. Q Do you knov; if the MIL standard was revised to include that HH specification? ' A ho, I don't knov;. I would have to see the revision. 2 Did you have any conversations with anyone fror. PRODUCED JM - |fj MT-PWHD-016130 n r u o o u.) >l* VWv*-l'v o v`> w- i m ij o-- j `ccos-rrec ;r. low-asbestos lUCwS - 0 r SC63t05"C( ;ainir;^ products? :'es, i aia. c._ V.'ith whom, if you r seal 1 0 A r% p, T h r c a l. ne man, uU i/ I can't think of his name offhand. If you mive 7 can ' t think of his name off- 't_4' Vh-.^. U t a t::r v; j. Jl -w Z ams ? " V. ^ o Ts a ; liliiams -- c .. a 1--a am 3 3 *. K. ?o: ' - - s ^ ^arcr.cn w. ., Q '..'hat do you recall of your conversation with the gentleman from Claremont regarding substitution? A v.'ell, he said the glass cloth could certainly withstand the rigors of shipboard use. He said that the rewettable -- so-called rewettable cr that glass cloth that had already been pretreated with an adhesive was now such that it could be used in just the same way as asbestos rewettable cloth. And he was happy to supply products to Portsmouth ; i d v d Xi r " v; SOJ **her. to ther.3 bul v;as n a o o v a.'.u dVii._iu lor tr.iit on- Casa .a. PRODUCED JM - 83 MT-PWHD-016131 r r r .Tjicn - cej.ievf described ;c you 'yesterday. ,hs cr.e in California? ..c , r.O iT*i _ W 4 r1 vn di the removal am rapidly replaceable insulation for cold v;ater piping.' ' ' 5 Oh, yes. A He supplied -- we used his glass cloth for that job. 2 Do you know if the glass cloth that he was talking about was in use j.n shipyards at the time of your conversation with him? A I think some shipyards used it. - I don't know it as a fact, you knew. I would have -- I don't recall it. But I, personally, had enough confidence in it to try it in that test. when that became -- the reason I used it was to determine whether it could, in fact, be used the way that the Claremont people.said it could be used. Q Did you do anything to the specifications or standards, suggest anything so as to encourage this substitution? ;his substitution" I am talking about substitution of this cloth for an asbestos-containing cloth. A 'dell, I don't knew if I actually did anything oners cr not. ;ov;arc end o. *--e i.i>.. c j an.. SWN'OIRS. G'.LE & RUSSELL L - . .......................... . - PRODUCED JHHlf m MT-PWHD-016132 n n n 230 I passed along the infornat ior., certaimy j to ~c unerocrier and A1 Miner.- That test was still in the process -- in a sense, in the process. People at Portsmouth naval Shipyard were writing up a procedure for using it. ' Q Do you recall any conversations with anyone from. U.HARCO concerning substitution? :n? Mhen is this, Hr Ilowd? MR. HOMD: At any tine. A I don't recall a spe.cific one. Me nay well have talked with then. . 5 Do you recall any conversations with anyone iron Mestinghouse concerning substitution at any tine? A. 0 Ho. Do you recall any conversations with anyone fron Anatex concerning the substitution of asbestos-free or low- asbestos products for asbestos-containing products? A I can't recall a specific one, no. Q Did you ever meet a gentlenan naned Robert Roy? A Rob Roy. He was with-Claremont. He's the gentlenan fron Ciarer.cut. _ vU -U . . Cl ' ; W U ; Cl - O led j ^ * C<u t-\i_E 0 r^USSELL is? - bz. MT-PWHD-016133 C n r 231 you discussed the cloth with- someone- from Cl are no nt . Is that Hr. Roy? .A Yes, it was. C; Had you seen Mr; Roy before that tine? A Prior to -- I':n not sure what you mean by -- Q Is that the first tine you net hr. Roy? A Yell, he called first, and we had a ccutle of telephone conversations. Then he cane dour, to cur office two or three tines prior to the test that I described, the use of his material. So I don't -- I don't icnov: what you mean by is that the first tine that I net him. Q You net hin, as I understand it, in connection with this fiberglass cloth discussion? A . Yes. Q Had you net -- A But the discussion -- there was more than one discussion. I mean, it happened over a period of tine. Q. Do you recall meeting with hin or talhir.g to hin on any other topics or at any other tines, ocher than whar you have just described? A Just about the Claremont products, primarily PRODUCED JM -83 MT-PWHD-016134 r n n ")? d you ever visi" of the facilities of the ;urers of asbestos orccucts .Jo. Q V.'e discussed briefly yesterday she liaval nuc sear engineering organisation. I think you indicated it v;as c cae ;o at havdra? Yes, c c a e C. ;he nuclear avUa Vr>OO* n J ---v* o-- U->* ?U* /w> --v pUV*" ou aecai A Yes, Admiral'Rickover is the head nan there. Q Have you at any tine had any c cmrvunic at ion or dealings 'with that department? A Yes. ' Q Do you have .any files or records of your dealings with that department? . A Ho. n Do you know if that department plays any role in t h irafting or revision of military specifications o: s tandards ? _ t. O * ' ta * nr* Do you know of anyone in that department who .4or- 4'v > s* PRODUCED JM - 83 MT-PWHD-016135 r n r 1 * ** - * r I don't knew anyone in the depa: 'inns now. .e .dealt -- Q V'ho did you deal with? : . A I don't even remember the names of the people I dealt with. I dealt with some of the people when I was in water treatment. :.s traded information with their wate: treatment people, and was in tne insuxa^ion joo we m a few dealings with them. t There was one letter that was signed by Rickover, that we talked about yesterday, -which came over ana questioned our progress on tne assesses situation -- .. Q '.-.'hen you say "asbestos situation" -- and I do not mean to interrupt you -- what do you mean by "asbestos situation"? . A V.'ell, the use of asbestos as a high-temperature insulation material and an attempt to try to reduce the amount of asbestos in high-temperature insulation materials the best we could. This is what I term by the asbestos situation. Okay j e c 11 . U, /U w w ^ 1C we rss'ccncc- zo i. S2&.- * fk A- i, i\ i t #* t" MT-PWHD-016136 r n r and pointed out that v;e were essentially on schedule and we were doing the things that we had previously noted we would . do. k There was sene -- it was -- we had noted then, either -- .. on some piece of paper; it may have been an instruction or in a letter or something. But we were essentially on target at that tine. cxj Q Did you receive any instructions from code 3 , directing you to embark upon an asbestos-substitution program? A I don't recall seeing' that, no. ' t- Q Have you ever heard the term "qualified products list"? ' A Yes. Q That is that? - A That's a list of manufacturers that have a product that is qualified by pretesting as described in a portion of the specification, to serve a useful purpose to the government. . ; Q How does one get on the Qualified oroducts list? ?o my knowledge -- witnarawn. How dees a manufacturer of a oroduct get on a PRODUCED JM-83 MT-PWHD-016137 C' r r 235 A To my knowledge, he must submit samples, valla samples of his -- of the products that are describe ' o,/ <-* *` i zi soecification to a testing f'acility i` 'Lcated in the spec S"v,6930i6 s 3 the government, and those products must, in ac v , t :he tests that are v,:ritten into the specification 3d product testing purposes. Did you or your department have anything to do v.-itn c: v; role- in the compilation of a cualifi Compilation of the list? .:King up t; ^ O w> V'e v:orked with 612- , a: up tne uist ce_aeve o_ut maue a ;-;or>,r*a closei;/ v:ith them. These tes hat you mentioned -- and I think you Indi cat ec i y *.y o 9 l :s indicated in the military specifica- tion? Riuht. - - w ere t h oc& " ^ < perxormea by manufacturers , themselves? I think so. I think that was allowed, but they w i.d--*. G ---- do -- ac.j j w*wj produced JS - 83 MT-PWHD-016138 r n n had to conform to whatever the requirements in the spec were for qualified product testing '_ .q Did the government ever perform, these tests? A ;es , think that was'-allowed , also. ' Concerning the asbestos insulation products, can vou tell us what percentage- of. the time the government woul; c-do w d pplicants for the quail:lea products list ana wn ;ercentage of time the manufacturers of those products would do the testing? _ :e Knows . o A Q. Do j I can't tell you that. you know. I don't knew. Mr. Murad, what was the purpose of the qualified products list? A The purpose was to have available to the govern ment a list of manufacturers that could supply materials that the government or the Davy needed on rather short notice, if necessary. It was essentially to expedite the procurement process. . Q Do you know if tne asbestos ir.sUiS.icn prcoucws ^O w .i V. . , - _* > . SAhSEES. GALE i HUESELL fa, <3*-, US.ctJJ MT-PWHD-016139 Ov r used in an aop Head ion other than a military application? MR. DeAMCZlD: G'cject to the form. .A Certainly seme did, because some were described in federal specs, and, when they were described in. federal specs rather than a military spec, that meant that other people 'within the federal government used them. Q Do you knew if any of these products had a use in nhu3 - ry , Cu.s*u MR. De.n.jjwuO Vr-v U/ J- Q -I t W WU U> *. C v'* **-' i. O- A., . ti i. W a. S u 0 -> a r\ ry whom/ v:ere you told that? h 'dell, the various representatives -- Manufacturers? -- of the manufacturers, suppliers; right. Did you receive any catalogs or sales brochures from these manufacturers? :es. you ever ;ive a list from anv of manufacturers indicating which of their products net a ' p ~ ^ ' P *'* ~ * soeciircatacn: produced JM -83 MT-PWHD-016140 r^ r n Oj receive that information. t vouia be on a list it v;ouo.a be mentioned as oart c: ;heir sales description. Q If you recall, was this in the catalog or a / separate document? 'A Usually, we received separate documents. I', personally, don't recall seeing -- well, there may have bee: a catalog nere or there. information I r**a IVS'C usuaxiy, tncugn, it j u s w t n 5.J i.O cr concern to ir.e, so it v;as pui.ea cu noeared to be nulled out c r - uti-mer se _X. V oc/.ea line one or two sheets out of a looseieaf notebook, that the entire notebook would be the catalog. That's my under standing . - Q To you recall any list correlating a manufac turer's products v.-ith. military specifications or the specifications that the manufacturers claimed were met by >ducts` A sn't recall a list of that typ ..e naa information to that effect. I don't know how complete it LS . ro:. wnom tic vcu receive tr.-3 in: crmatio: PRODUCED Jfis - 83 MT-PWHD-016141 r n r ''=> n w. o__ a variety of manufacturers ar.c suppliers v;ouia sen c: ive this to us. *C How v:ouid you identify this information? a: v;culd you call it? ' A I'd call it just general insulation infcrmatic: If I v:ere to -- you kr.ov;, if I were to file it, I'd just p; it in the -- in one cr mere of the folders, based on the kind of material, based on the - S '..'hen is the lst time that you have seen these folders ? When I left the job six and a half years, ago. Do you knovr where the folders are now?. Do. ;hink we ought to nv OuU cr.&w iTiSsi vor<c. ___ T u t a ri e pains to put every thing here in a specially good filing system, bui **.ha ^ i - ,-g e> 4 1 , . <- ^ W Jm kj U U J W the best of my knowled ge, in thao folder tnat was rr.o s t appropriate I think v.e understand what you are saying. visited? ni. i i ir.Wt , .. . Do you recall what lest Coast shipyarc j S-M GmLE Ci MT-PWHD-016142 VO r n n At any tir.s , `-in. Murad ^ c-Uy f* -t -- o 1 >=J; have teen as Puget Sound, Mary-ana, Did you ever go to urerertor.? Yes. That's Puget Sound Mavai Shipyar When did you go there , sir? I have teen there rr.any tir.es -- several V.'hen is the first -- excuse re -- .ne X 6S rir.e; t I beiiev o * --i n _ v:er.c tr.ere v;as on tr.e jet blast deflector coating prcc.er, ana tnat v:as m a 'j have been"earlier. It r.ay have teen fail -- no, it vasn t -- gee. It r.av have been in the fall of '71 was the first Can you tell us how rany tires after that you visited Puget Sound or Brer.erton' A I v;ent several tires on that job. As a rati of fact, the r.ore I think of it, the core I think it was -- nat j o; the jet blast -- -- raves earlier. I ray have rone in tne SAMCCRS. I MT-PWHD-016143 r r It had ;o go wutn toe -- we naa *.aswea r-ugec Sound Naval Shicvard to try to select a coating material to -- -*3*" W, 1 ~ r< 1 ~ 3 ^ ^ t'0'"'"1'---- C o 3 ^ W u ~ ^ Wj -- Cl id> v uv.-Cw/t> ) Yes, you explained that. -- ex naa s t . , n In your visits to ruget Sound, did you at any tin have occasion to observe departnent 55, the insulation departnent ? - A Yes, I stepped in there when I had tine, as tine permitted, as long as I was already there, to see their operation and -- . 3 Do you recall when that was, sir? A It was at least one tine, naybe more, on those visits primarily for the jet blast deflector problem. Q Do you recall who was in charge of the departnent A No, I don't recall the nan's name in charge of 56 at Puset. Q '.`.'hat did you observe when you did go tc the lagging departnent? . A I don't know- if I can remember too well on that c;3,: RS G C u nu produced MT-PWHD-016144 n n r <: *i Q Did you go on board ship? A I nay have. I may have. t0 Do you have any recollection as to what you observed on board ship? ' A Ho. 1 can't remember what chat part of the . Puget --- as I say, it was primarily for the JED, and. I seem to recall that they were -- they had a pretty good shop, but it is the best I can remember right now. Q In your opinion, was that shop any different than any other insulation shop you had seen? MR. SCHV.'ARTZ : I object to- the form of the question. _ Q You can go ahead and answer. .. A Oh, gee, I can't give you a very good answer. I really can't. It seemed to be pretty good. Something in the back of my mind tells me that it was fairly well run. I had that impression when I left, and I can't recall specifics. 0 Do you know why it was a pretty good shop? A ::o. I'm trying to remember it. MR. EZMMY: I object to the answer. A (Continuing) If I knew, I'd answer. Jia you nave U w v _. w _ V produced JM - 83 MT-PWHD-016145 r opposed to the shipboard operation? A I believe I did go in to visit the shop. .1 Can you tell us ''riat your* recollection is as to your observations in the shop at Srem erton? A Well, that's what I said, as I recall, and I know it is net a very good answer, it is not very definitive, but it is the best answer I can think of right now, because it is based on my memory. - It left r.s with the impression that it sas a v;ell-run shop, but I can't 'tell you why,, if things were- neater or what just can't remember it th' A That's the best impression I have right new. Q Do you recall any of the facilities in the shop at Bremerton, the equipment? A ho, I don't. Q When did you go to Maryland? A Well, Mary didn't -- I went to about two years ago. ' It had nothing to do 'with insulation 'whatsoever. ' Q Did you have occasion to observe any insulation activities or shops at " ' a :;o, .. OV; jC.'. ' PRODUCED JM -83 MT-PWHD-016146 r C" *)-r *I-t ;o . v;ent to _ong reach first an ^ecember oi id. . o t.. ; " r* I i 0 7 I had finished v;ith the insulation work. *0 The coatings? A Right. And i insulation 'work at all. ' - MR. NONINSKI: Kadleigh, we have teen going an hour and a half. - MR. HOAD: I am finished Moank you very much, Mr. Let s taxe a oreax. (A recess was taken from 10:33 until 10:^3 Q Mr. Murad, I understand that you visited shipyards in connection with seeing how the instruction 5100.26 was being fcliov.-ed. - MR. SCHV.'ARTZ : On the record, I would just note tnat understand that Mr. Nov,-inski is not g' <o*> i*nY*g~ to ailcv: questio^nv -r ^ that !.. d - n , d n u _ would like to reserve the right, if the Court -were to so order, to later inquiry. ' t- * - v -- o q * *' d^ * * ^ --J *w* wrr --J *v* 4Vr*.. w * r~* n-- <'* --^ ' " v' s/ .. ' i.'. 'j-'i.C C PRODIJC. JM - 83 MT-PWHD-016147 r r n 51C0.26, an I correct in understanding lurmg tne entire series' of tine you were assooiatea with the uepartner.t c. M'&yy, in terns of visits to west Coast shipyards, you visitec Maryland, Long Beach,and Brenertcn at Puget Sound, and those visits took place in the 1970's, as you just described then to Mr. Kcwd, who just questioned? Is that correct? 0 Putting aside those shipyards an hoe shipyards specifically which you visited for purposes c ne instruction cr in connection with the instruction, did you at any tine dur '!=> oour~!= ci vour association with the United States Mavy ires A I visited other Maval facilities, cut there's only -- there v'sre only ten Maval shipyards at that tine, and now there's only eight. Q Directing your attention just to MTavai shipyards, did you visit any Maval shipyards? A Any Maval shipyards other than the ones that I already ner.tioned? Q ether than the ones you 'mentioned and other than visits in connection with 5130.26. . -- 3 -- v j. r y.x j. -l y .'.s.n y t. .rr.ts. PROD-U8C3ED MT-PWHD-016148 r r r C V'hat was the purpose of visiting the Philadelphia shipyard? . *A Oh, well, '.'aval Ship Engineering Center, Philadelphia division, v;as there.' I visited then many tines for water treatment purposes . .ngineering uenter was there, and I visited then tv:c or three times for the blast deflector problem.. V'e had a 1 4 4- - -I - w/crk _ncing with people at the Philadelphia h'avai Shipyard for, ch, certai very cuick tests. Visited for that purpose. 0 ' In addition to the -- A And, of course. .ne ansu-ation area, I visited Phi lade 1 chi a nan', 'or the desirn division at Q In addition to the yard at Philadelphia, have yov visited any ether yards? .A well, that covers all the shipyards except Pearl Harbor, ana I never visited Pearl. Q At any tine while you visited the Philadelphia yard, subject to the limitations which we have previously set forth, without regard -to the purpose of your visit, did you have occasion to see men working upon asbestos or working with asbestes-bsarinm products? =.vj -A L a r.wihi LL pRooycfo JM - S3 MT-PWHD-016149 r r A ' I don ' t knov,'. q In addition, you visited naval facilities, as distinguished from shipyards. '..'ithcut regard to the purpose for your visit to the Naval facilities, did you at any time have occasion to see men working with or using asbestos bearing products? A Here again, I don't knew. I may have. . q But you have no specific recollection today? A Right. f' Q When you visited the Puget Sound or Bremerton shipyard, did you have occasion :c meet Roger. Beckett, 3-e-c-k-e-t-t? A I don't know. The name sounds a little familiar, bul can't say specifically. Q With respect to the asbestos reduction program, was that program specially funded? A Not to my knowledge. Q Was it of a routine nature that your department would undertake such projects as the asbestos reduction program? rain vou re:er to tne asbestos reauction crorra: .nunu i ms *. e. t e.: v . v i. i; ti v c u m PJRmOD-U8C3ED MT-PWHD-016150 r n r Nine a Lx CO d jr U liCL O y no . - As par t of the pursu it of the task, did you i v -3 *.*.* ri 11 e n re ports frcr. any agencies of the United States Navy 7 ft I did not . w Do you know whether or not Mr. Cherohrier did? A He nay have . "s Do you recall at any tine, without regard to when repor u 5 ^3.7 b3. ve been ^direct ed, seeing or reading such repo a U cc 0. A p.r* v~\ t t recall it ri r-'-~ ** n r',v.~>^cs -av *.'<=>1 1 have v> 0 0 ri 2 c m 3 k I. r. d -- normally, there is a report When a f i e 1 act! vity 13 tasked o G ClO a j CD j and obey do the job, they send sere K ind of s. written sts.u ement of what the results v; ere . Nor i..dwxy , that's done . You do not recall re eeiving or reviewing any that your aepa rt nent -- - A. I didn 11 receive one , certainly. was one t t** ^ I had seen, that's possible. Uhether there * You ha ve no specific recollection, again? A 'ell, up to yes terda y I didn't. : ccurr^d yester cay that -- SAtDEEi. GALE PRODUCED - 83 MT-PWHD-016151 r r r ?_j. -- -- c r. an ye a vo; I didn't, actua_j.y re at: tne report, p; _ say a '27! tne Philadelphia Mavai Shipyard, from the'MAVSIC' Philadelphia division-, that I believe did address that. So I thinS there is one -- one - or tv;o. D hr. hurad, v:ho showed you the letter that you saw yesterday? ' A One of the r.erj here; I think this gentleman. Q When you say "this gentleman," you are referring to .hr. levy, who sits next to the court reporter? Ke didn't 3. C "C U3. j. X y show it to me. he- just -- speaking with hr. Mow inski to see whet her that should be reviev:ec today or -- I'm not sure what the subject was, cut vTidt V,' S. S Cil 0--- t I"13. _T 3 v,*r.6n X -- that' s what triggers my memory now- on it. .'.R . Z : Do y ou have a copy of the letter, h r. levy? hP. r3 7<--7t>- * Yes . H) l .*:R Cs w ii /. /a r^. aj In aaciticr. to taur:in~ watn .-.r. ..owinsxi am . \ \| | PRODUCED M - 83 MT-PWHD-016152 r r r 251 .evy, have 'you-had conversations with anyone else? A t :io. MR. USUEMSKI: Excuse r. Sj P^tsr ---- MR . r OV.'D ; QK action. MR. i* U.'. i.io.M 1 For the record, at the conclusion of the proceedings yesterday, Mr. Levy showed me two documents, which I thin/, he has now given to you, indicated his intent to examine the witness abouttthem today and offered the ' opportunity to allow the witness to review the documents yesterday, which I declined; and that was the sum total of the conversation -that I oarticipated in. a And Mr. Murad was a spectator to that conversation, not a participant. BY MR. SCH'.'.'ARTZ : Q Mr. Murad, putting aside for a moment whatever documents you might have seen yesterday from Mr. Levy, did you, during the course of your association with the United States Mavy, receive any reports in ccnnectionwith the task 'which had been assigned to you -- A Mo, net that I recall. " -- or review any retorts that others hau -- JM -83 MT-PWHD-016153 r- r r A I may have reviewed . some reports, these particular ones that cane in to Ed Cherobrier. .0 Do you have any specific recollection, however? A No . Q On the other side, did you subr.it any reports in connection with the task? A ho, I don't -- based on what I think you mean by a report, no. ' Q Any document in writing? A V.'e would write trip reports, depending on the trip. V.'e didn't always write trip reports. . Depending on the job, there might be a report 'written. / .. ' Q Did you submit or prepare any written reports concerning the status of the task which had been assigned? A Vie wrote the letter in response to 03's letter addressing s Other than that? No . Q Did you prepare any recommendations in writi: v.'hich 'were forwarded to any other level or agency of tine n *1 ** o ^ O .. 1 w t, kj V Ci ^ a C3 H 2.V T*: n ; c nar.ge s v;e mace to tne soecs . C .: PRODUCED JM -83 MT-PWHD-016154 r n r 253 standard, the instruction and the Naval Ships Technical Manual. *2 Goin^ back to the period of I96? to 1972, could you describe for me the organisational structure of the Unit; States Navy as it related to the Naval Ship Engineering' Center? .iSil j C.0 - c? fr> v-> - a of Navai operations, is tne -- 1 r> *n -r ipuehi." it the headquarters of the Navy. They have a Navy Material Command tha* reports to CMC, and Naval Material Command had several systems commands reporting to them, one of -which '.'.'as -- probably the biggest one was the Naval Ship Svstems Command. The others were Naval Air Systems Command, * i 2. v a. -n ^ rdna.n ce Systems Command, Naval Electronic System: (Command . t here ' s .'aval Supply Systems Command 'which -- I'm not sure if that's under NAVMAT or not. ' out, at any rate, we and Naval Shi? Engineering Center would report to Naval Ship Systems Command, and, in turn, there `were divisions of NAVSEC th d-/ 8'U. Z O C9SLC -- Quarters ,'ould the Philadelchia division be one of those nnat resortea to .oo; .es . PRODUCED JM - 83 MT-PWHD-016155 r*' Would it be fair to assure that axhibi~o 1i, tne OPNAV instruction to which we have been referring, would ha Vs been issued by the Chief of Naval Operations?. A No. This'was a NAYSHIPS instruction. Q I see. A And that was issued by NAYSHIPS. It was signed cut , I tncr.r; K v 'Well, it says on here it is an 373 instruction, signec ou- Dolan, who was 07 03t.t^ tT 7 "1 & Q To she extent*that the Exhibit. 1 was issued by NAYSHIPS, would it be fair of he to assure, then., that whatever input you and your associates right 'have had would have gone up the chain, to be incorporated by a headquarters higher than you? ' A ' Yes. - 0 Do you knew by .which level of command the task was assigned? - . A 'Which task are you referring to? A The task on 'which you and Mr. Cherobrier worked in terr.s of asbestos reduction. .. A No. I received oral direction from r.y irradiate suoervisor and his irradiate -- second level and third level, 3 usi PRODUCED JU - 83 MT-PWHD-016156 n r r Q In connection v.'ith the task -- and, j Uo u SO a> not repeating myself, when I use that terminology I an referring to the work thee you and Mr. Cherobrier per: Okay. 3 -- did you have anv contact with the Naval Air stems Command? A i uia not, no. Q Do you know whether Mr. Cherobrier die? A Mo, I don't ksow If he did or not. Q V.'it'n the Maval Ordnance Command, Cherobrier, if you knew, have any -- A I didn't. I don't know if he did. - Q Mith the Naval Supply Systems Command? A ' I don't recall having anything with them other -- well, we may have had something. Thinking about it now, yes, there may have-been a little interface with Maval Supply Systems. Q Do you kr.ov; what the interface was in regard to? A V.'ell, to determine how much astestc: e? 3**0' and trv to get them to reduce the procurement of high- . . 3. S t T;9 4 * 2. au n - ~. H'lZZlZ. GALE 6 r'L'ESELL PRODUCED Jl MT-PWHD-016157 r r Havy charged v;ith procuring material directly for use by Haval shipyards? *A That's, I believe, one of their missions. Q 'Could the supply depot, for example, at Mechanic burn, Pennsylvania, come under their supervision? A I believe so. . C In addition -- excuse me. '' A I'm net a hundred percent sure of that. Q This agency, in addition to procuring material for the United States navy, was also, responsible for inventorying and stockpiling material; isn't that correct? A I believe so, yes. . '' 3 Do you recall whether you had any contact with the Naval Electronics Command? A ,iO. . 3 - Ir. connection with the task, did you have any contact with the '.'aval Environmental Health Center? A Ho, I don't think so. . Q Do you know whether Hr. Chercbrder did? 'A Ho, I don't know if he did or r.ct. 3 Did you have any contact with the .'.'aval Ship Research I Development Center in connection with the tasx'. C t r:: . iJSSELL PRODUCED - 83 MT-PWHD-016158 r n r -o i - t: a . '.'hat was the nature of that conta I had asked c . <3.0 j Annaoo-is iaooratory to re vieV.' a 5 c e s ucs-co.'<i-air.ir.." sp; - -"Micnatior.s , <r _i V*- .r** U w t? _ whatever measures we couid to recuce the -- or eliminate the high asbestos-containing materials in those specifications as types that v;ere already in there. i; Do you recall the name of the gentleman at the Annapolis laboratory with whom you -worked? i can't think as name c::nanu, no s task which you assignee to nnnapo^i: educed to -writing by you? . A There was a brief description, yes; very brief. 0 : Did Annapolis provide you 'written results of the ;ests 'which they had performed? A Ho. There v/ere nc tests performed, per se. The job was to review' the soecificaticns. Upon their review of the specifications, did the f. nr. a oo. faciioty provide written advices or responses? I didn't receive them. Do you knew whether or net any -were so o: ' k . . w l'- _ * I oi l` Cb PRODUCED -83 MT-PWHD-016159 c n r Oj this Else started toward th e ena o: ; 0 "jar e . something going in August, an .nu.rust c- a. * A ' Ir. ether words, t ne spec:. :cat :sr.t v:o:-.u tCv ts changed until t' h' e "kavy was assured that the change would st:i- sat:: avy needs; is that correct? t ' s correct. vion^a' task j due. tne unateu o^at i -a*stenc' t laboratories cr independent; .:C--..iSui^a.1wi rG~ u5I - O..U o - w**vn r> v'. c. m *- * rw *4' , It lie cesK ' -.0 Q VJith respect to the sas <:, uo you anew .wnetner or not the havy worked with or contacted any other military service 'organizations of the other branches of service0 I I take.it, however, that you did not have such contact -- Uo --with other military organizations? t-. ]4o, * aian i You are not aware of hr. Chercbrier having such C ul - C. u t . PRODUCED M - 83 MT-PWHD-016160 r n n I'm not aware of it; chat'3 correct 0 cnt . . i -u <J . . r\ c nat f; Do you Know wnet.ner or not ,-ir. w.neroorier naa any such direct contact? A I don't know. 0 Did you have any contact with UICSH cr any agency of the Department of Health, Education & A I didn't. Do vou Know wnetner o: . nerocrier aid? j. aon't know1 if ns cia cr not. the task and during the time tend any symposiums or y of the United States? A- I don't-think so. Q Did you attend any symposiums or seminars conduct ed by groups ether than the United States? . A 'well, I attended the AS7M meeting in October of '71, if you can consider a symposium seminar. more of a working nrcuo. wio - ... ^ w 1 j- C OTiu u v u % D; ^ D . G^Ll R U PC Z -. L - S3 MT-PWHD-016161 VM v.o n r r 250 rt C n:ey , Pennsylvania. Q That was with regard to the seating cf standards; *' .s that correct? .' A Setting of -- I guess you could -- if you are ising the term broadly, yes. 0 I do not mean tc put words in your mouth. That was the ouroose cf the meeting at Hershey in jctocer oi 19 A The part that I was involved in--there were a lot of people there and they discussed a lot cf different sub jects; but the portion I was involved in had to do with insulation materials, and we discussed ways that we could improve testing cf insulation materials; and, at least formally, that was it. And informally we -- when I say "we," various manufacturers' representatives and myself -- discussed, again, the same points that we had talhea of many times, trying to'reduce the amount of insulation -- of asbes tos in insulation and perhaps eliminate it altogether. 5 Again,-when you say !'tryi to red` uce' the asbestos insulation or eliminate it altoget ier," you ar saying that in context of satisfying the needs of the Unite: ccates wavy.' PRODl MT-PWHD-016162 n n r Oh, yes, that's right. In addition to the meeting of tne Aoin October of 1971, did you attend any other meetings :cnducced by r.cn- U. S. agencies? A Ho, I can't remember any. Did you ever have occasion to rr sSw d i*.-, Hcltgrer A :es. 0 Mr. Holtgren is or wasassociated with cede OAF; is that correct? ' A I believe he is new. Q During the period oftins you wereworking on the task, did you have occasion to meet with Mr. Holtgren? A cars on. . K O n '-'j.z oy pnone. I knew him from, before. nay have net an Q During the tine you were working on the task, with what department or command was Hr. Holtgren associated? A V.'ell, when I first started in '69, he was in code 612 0 of IIA.VS DO first r.am. uurang tne -- - Later he took a job at HAVSHIPS.and was directly ` asbestos area. lo you reca^_ wne: r.catgren ::cv~: SAI.T.ERS. FtLE P*0DIJCD Jit. 83 MT-PWHD-016163 vo r r n to ...-i To the best o: my knowledge, ut v:as scnetume an ;he soring or so of '72. Q During the period of time Mr. Holt gran v;as at :;avszc , code 6120, v: as he involved in the task or did you consuls with him in regard tc the task? ho, I da y.,-S t*- Q'--V- -- ''*1 -- As far as I kr.cvr, he v;asn t mvoivec in at. Q Is it fair to,assure, therefore, that the i st time hr. Hcltgren, as far as you knew, became associated wi the asbestos program v:ouad be ir. t soran e 3 J - t/hDr, p.a * I - 5 ...iw.. i. ~ moved to MAVShIPS? ' A 'Then he moved to KAV3HIPS, whenever that v;as , right. Q d you have occasion during the period of you we re worki ng on"the task tc meet or v; OaT*/C i un a .n Rosenv; in kle? H r don't think I ever met him. Tris r*s.rr;S, i 'cSJ-J> 0 Y a~ 5 is -- he's the gentleman that v;a s Commander B. boss , at least for part of the time; but I never actua n i m i think I spoke to him once or tv:i ce by phone. r- u you rave occasion curing cue time you PRODUCI-D MT-PWHD-016164 r r n worker.?: on the task to rose* u S. .K V/u li cl v ciO w u*n "j . . . :-n Lawton? That -.ay have teen Captain Barbee's cos; I mean Commander Barboo's boss, when Gam Barboo was lommander. _t may well have seen. a can eiaii Sam O'S CCS2. :an It may v:e_a be uawtcr., 5 But is it correct for_me to assume that you have no recollections of Captaiti Bosenwir.kle or Captain Lawton, other than that they may have been Commander Barboo's boss? '..'ela, r.os enwur..-:_e anew women ever at co. dadn ' t actually meet mre , o: I sooke to him cr.ce or twice by phene. I remember hearing his name. I did meet San Barboo's boss, the man who suc ceeded Rcsenwirkle . I think his name was Lawton. Q Did you have any conversations with Captain r.csenwir.kie concerning the task? A "ay have had some brief ones, but we primarily women witn cam 5arKoo' Ew Wn U >j w d S h* Q Do you have a specific recollection of your discussions with Certain Bos em inkle todav? produced J. 83t0 MT-PWHD-016165 r r Do you ha- .ecticn o: your discussicr. s v;ith Com: . A hot speci. w During th1 course of the tine you 'worked on the cask, did you have an; v.'iid an in dustrial hy A I don ' t k r> During th associated. with the U i 3 navyj nas seen a 5 U ? S HI ? 5 c rganioation h n Yes . r' Is it thre .UTiCu^or. c. wh.o o r o.* * c. o-.y GUPShiPS, to supervis ayuired by the Navy at 'he coirununication with private shipyards would be through the SUPGHIPS organisation ; is that correct? Mr. ;igv;i:;ski : V.'hat cc.Tutunication? . MR. SCHl/AHTZ : Thank you. Let r.e withdraw the 'Quest ion. W-T ^ DT 7 ;he. extent that- Mavy directives, PRODUCED MT-PWHD-016166 r n n manuals , would apply to ivate shipyards, they would be ______ _o_ f.trough the SUPSHIFS organization; is that correct A That was mury. i/&uu.n," s yes. Q There would DIPS oerscr.nei stations private shipyards in connection with the responsibilities given to it by the Department of Davy; isn't that correct? A I don't know. I believe so, but -- D Didn't you, during the course of your associaticr with the United States Day;/, have occasion to work, or communicate wish SUFSHIP5 personnel? A Y e s. And you communicated with 5U?SH_?D pers: only at the headquarters level but also those who'were working directly with private shipyards; isn't that correct? A At times, yes. Did you--not at times also have the opportunity to communicate -with SUPSHI? personnel located at individual crivate shisyards? V/hen specifications were prepared, you state; Li strata; ;o ant ere: oarties for comments ' `nD w . i -- produced JM - 83 MT-PWHD-016167 VJ1 n n beard s cat cc 9 iid these interested !3 - : u.;1: mica d. i d V/aricus ccaes, boner ccae, CCQ9S -es, o*:"* r*" eS >n-) t7i 1;" 2^. fU" neyT .* aid. .ere tne soeeme cl ~ -JUO .30 M w C -- W- c orient sj o w j ci ~i 2 a> 14 j. C* ' " itk >'-> n T7 *" p ' ` PC v-> -- - c. Hot norr.aily. There right be occasions v.-hen they v:ould be. depending cn the nature of the specification and the expertise at specific shipyards. ' 3 Would, they also be distributed to SU?SHIPS? . A Hot normally. . Q Do you knox whether or not the specifications v;ere on occasion sent to trade organizations representing - id ; : r1 ftates Wavy, for cortnent 7 ;0 vou k.ncv; v;het r.er or nc` occasion .* O dwwww^ d- c*tiw^;^r -- /Onrs*'- -- . 4 s* o i | l r?f * UL 83 MT-PWHD-016168 PRODUCED Ji - 83 MT-PWHD-016169 r r n 2: .at me sto: p ^ Vi C. w o:n: Is it normal '..*avy croc > V. <I W "W % aO-- Or C"0* r"\ /"V * i --* c, v" * such as exhibit 1 is sent cut on an initial distribution list to other commands, they, m turn,.wouxu nave tneir ov;n -! 2 ^ 3. nci s a r d V doc un* no ? v.*t e nd o ^s e ne n.t 3 3 v> *-> c* 4 he chain cf command, so to speak? ' They might so that. -hey namnt cane _^ -ana r e v;; : or .t and issue their ov;n field acl - > - L-t The purpose, however, cf t'. nstruction, v:as information to be disseminated throughout .nitea States Mavy? ' A Y e s. Q On page 8 it says "Copy tcM a number of ` organisationsand I 'wondered if you could tell us to which organizations reference is made. A 3UMED, Bureau of Medicine i Surgery. looks like -oast Guard. .,huA( is Maval Facilities ungineering Command MATSU? is Maval Cuooly Systems Command. . i 2. V c. ^ afety Center. UA7MA7 is .Mavy Material Cor.man IS r -- njr, MT-PWHD-016170 r ;n n 'here s 2. coup_e r.cre on ne: )o you war. ; ncse _ .;ou_o a: ecific codes at MAVS^C, Tavsi Ship un.pineerinr Center, cede th ^0, 6105E, 6131, c!53. iavai Chic Syster.s Command, C7D. naval Chips Specialist '2 1 net familiar with that; you'd have to loch at the stands: Iavai distribution list for that. Murad, where- it refers to MA'/T ; nat iue aes: . es. n IlCl -- to v:hat section -- That's the section that I worked at -- v:ould it refer? ?hat'5 the materials development and applications Q To v.'hat does 6Olo TAVSEC refer? That's the .machinery -- ship's machinery division n To what doss 5iCp: '3* an That's the safety people n To what does t131 refer? --0- PRODUCED g3 MT-PWHD-016171 U> r r n 27 Z To does 615 3 refer? -> id ^ "I :in~ oeccle. 'ext to the designation TAV3HIP5, j.0 v.T.at ooes th >-> o to.^ That's the code in 37 that hr. 3 rawford worked in, C0u6 j i -- v*ri2.u 5 ^3.j. jr 9 Q_Q S Jp6 vise? A They had control of shipyard resources. 3 And the code 130, MA75HIPS? A That's not a code, 'V-I =>* sent a hundred copies to them. ' Q The Exhibit 1 is signed by Mr. holan, v;h< a' identified himself as deputy commander -- 3 -- for field activities. V.'ould he be the one :harge of the deoartment that had the ultimate responsi f* f2 .= ble signed it, so he issued that -- that was the ' * X* Me -was an admiral, at least, and MA7SKIFS v;as organized such that there is one commander and severii ueoutv commar.aers -,ne- O \.J 2 C C: -.. a - ^ ^ o j, MT-PWHD-016172 he would not necessarily have been the author of tne oocurent? A o UO ident . 'Ja i* _L Oii ;lc; . note 02 c. ^0Cer0noe do uthor CCJ*P wrnv s wi erry av:ro: p ,C 'at re: r*0J c.l.r.""sr* 9 3--it--0 -- 1. --c p p he OC ere is .so ri v:n^t ^vo r erenc*5 to .* .-.r jc-s-- ro ;ecreoar hp^ es * The So the author, as far as yo ow I * V -L Jji1*-, AW . In connection with the task that was - MR. :;ov.T::sr.I: Excuse rr.e a non.ent , Peter (Discussion off the record) - rj,* Vv .'.u 1 z. / . .er or not any revisions . O 0 p vo c, *- f. v ^ produced JM - 83 MT-PWHD-016173 r r n 4: , ~ r'w*' ~-- U*. W v* -* f A *i_w. ^t .n . O -- w V.'hlch department v:as charmed v:ith the respor.sl- >" i ri r, ^ _ 'at ir.r, m.alatary stanaaras ana n.a_ti,ary C3^ww______ . ^ -? vs i . i-, . j ^ /-I ' ***"*/> Vs "OV4r)1" ^ V-> Q O ., w w it j w w * * w - tv. w ^ o 1 . . -- W * * ^ 's ^ * '-iw aca1, ;icr. :f shins 'ey the United States h'avy from, private shipy 'To--';v "v an I have, the cuesticn (The pending question' was read,). j .within the government i'lR . i w .``1 .'. rv."i - L f-o > TT VT ' ' r V " .`.i l . established that t; ies . I do not think you have is the case. m you ansv;e: he cyuestic.n, hr. huraa? Tc my .knowledge, there was -- the h'avy Department; put r. y a produced MT-PWHD-016174 r- r n <t i unarmed with ths resoc risibility of writing the cer> n* ?t- rft * ^ n ^o or:- o^d,''1 e?1**'*-'**^'*"*''*?* ^ r*i - q o be aeouired by the Unitea states To rr.y knowledge, there's a contracting office . i -n V C.ZLA j'a -- -- usee to 'SHIPS - - would be the 02 c hat actuaiiv :r. cr.arme ^^ntr-^ .or, -when you said that there v:ere certain . . . -L W Ci . V *J s> 1_ , ^ Cl A Uafc M W 'y scecs wr.acn v;are mcoroor :nto shacoua auar.m contracts have oeen tne c: tnat wcun have as: W'. j w o - i 3 U C2 . A They would write the contract. They would, c: course, have to go sack to many other offices in order to make sure that the government.was getting what the Uavy felt they wanted. .- Q or department of the -- rust about o let rr.e ask the cuesticn. A Go ahead. Q V.'hich department or office 'would have requested i joruracti."..: oi'fi^a that reforer.ee be made in k* *-i_c. -jc JltML produced - 83 MT-PWHD-016175 CO c r f^ shipbuilding comracts so certain spscirics.sa.on.5 or saancsscs? ft ; _ :'0 the extent that "IL standard 7s= would have been referred' to in shipbuilding contracts, '.-.'01010 office i the reouess for its inclusion? -v% ^ ^ ^ Q v' ^ Vy U3 ~ r ~ " p *"> * .* stanoaros ana sne soecu:scat ions .mo sue sms- SO 3*r.:OM. . -. ^T M A i 1 U . W v -l ^V v-> ~Uw O V.'.S lent s it .,, rv.t i t e u _ O ~------ . r\ * .A That's rr.y understanding. Q During the time you have been associated with ths Jnited States h'avy , have you become acquainted wish the snrasf rernr.ent urn_snea ecuior.or.t 'That is cover mens- h C. t ,r> n a r* ' : D~ /t V, ^ id ws :rovided bv She acverr.rr.; or.nection -- to a contractor, in connection with, a c< n.-r>- nr . 1. rr v o Ia v.* s z* ^ cl s s c c * i s 0 j- ^ ri t. ^ ^ S O f* w ~... C^ G. V. ii - si o . the acvernnent wa: r> - a : '"- d- - - - ~-s wr . . . iud o .U* _J ^ v. d^. - ~ d c. produced JNI - 83 MT-PWHD-016176 r n r :r.at , no . o you knew that today? ;u have no kncv.meupe j tnen, ci the p c v e re n t -jsu ; --`O T..J,-------'-JT-- ^ a ^ - containing asbestos to private contr I -- Ori1ano.' :r cr anyone of v:n w i ~ i/aar. CU aware sr.icyaras. non visiteo a. ^ i i !- , i_ v ^O -- Holy Loch, net U- pe, but it is an American facility. speak with people at the British Ministry of Defense, but a. didn't visit any of their shipyards. D _ In connection with the task, did you review any documents prepared by the British Ministry of Defense? I r.ay have n scm r :o vou have ar.v soecifi; ,aco.ie:i . W*-. v~*. *w- rD\ -ti*j O. ..O. ..0. In addition to the task on which you p<J PMl/iDw way jm - sa MT-PWHD-016177 n feres or study groups concerning the use of asbestos by or for the United Ctates Navy? A Neil, we interfaced, as we- mentioned, with Philadelphia,- and we spoke with E'u'MZD , Those -- and, of course, the people at the variou s shipyards were concerned, and we had dialogues with then. I don't know of any other s . 0 The answer is, other than v;hat you have said, then--it would be you would not know of any others; is that correct? * That's correct. MR. SCHWARTZ: Thank you. ' (Discussion off the record) ' (A recess was taken from 11:43 a.m. until 11:53 a.m.) - MR. SCKNARTZ: Mark these. (Copy of document on the letterhead of Department of Navy, Naval Ship Engineering Center, Philadelphia Division, to Owens-Ccrning Fiberglas Corporation, date-stamped 5 May 1969 and May 11, 1939, consisting of three pages, was marked Defendants' (Murad) Exhibit 11 for identification, as of this date.) PRODUCED JM - 83 MT-PWHD-016178 277 r----------- - ------------------- :----------------------------- :--------- -- (Copy of document on the letterhead of De partment of the 1-Iavy, Kaval Ship Engineering * Center, Philadelphia Division, to General Dynamics Corporation, Electric Boar Division, ' dated 30 April 1969, consisting of two pages, was marked Defendants' (Eurad) Exhibit 12. for identification, as of this date.) '' (A recess was taken' for luncheon at 12:G o'clock p.m . ) * o0o J i SANDERS. GALE a RUSSELL Ccr-.U , .v : . r--: PRODUCED JM - 83 MT-PWHD-016179 r- -n r 273 ,,*h_ >3.-0 O V - j K 2 :i R Y MURAD further as follows: resur.ed and testified CROSS-EXAMINATION (CONT'D) BY MR. SCHWARTZ: Q Mr. Murad, I as shewing you a document which we have already marked as Exhibit 11 for identification and alsG a second document which wq> have marked Exhibit 12 for identification. I would ask that you look at them and then tell me 'whether or not these are the two documents which ycu saw for the first time yesterday and to which you had earlier referred in your responses to my questions. A They look like it. I only saw them for a moment yesterday. Q - Then let me ask you to lock at them again. Without regard to if you saw them yesterday or not, have you ever seen these documents prior to coming to testify for purposes of this deposition? .. (Discussion off the record) THE WITNESS: V.'ould you read the question. Q The question, Mr. Murad, is whether or not, prior SANDERS. GALE a RUSSELL PRODUCED JM -83 MT-PWHD-016180 r n to coming to testify for purposes of this deposition, you had seen either ox" those tv;c articles. ' MR. : Articles? . MR. SCHNARTS: Exhibits. . A I really don't remember. Q You have no specific recollection of having - A Of these specific letters, no. Q -- seen those specific letters -- A No. Q -- namely. Exhibits 11 and 12, for purposes of identification? A That's correct. MR. SCH'.vARTZ: . Thank you. I have no further questions. MR. STANGER: . Can we identify which is 11 ' and which is 12? MR. SCH'.vARTZ : Off the record. (Discussion off the record) HR. SCH'.vARTZ: Exhibit 11, for purposes of identification, is on the letterhead of the Department of Navy, Naval Ship Engineering Center, Philadelphia division, Philadelphia, addressed to SAX'OERS. GALE & RUESEIL r : : r r PRODUCED MT-PWHD-016181 r- n r 230 v.-ens-Corning Fiberglas Corporation, subject ;eir.g rroooseu Insulating lateria.s lor navai V 6 S 3 S *' S- H T- i3 a ohree-oa^e dccurr.eni: > signed by a J. V.r. Murdock, H-u-r-d-o-c-k. cohuain3 two date stamps, the first being 5 May 1569 and the second being May 11, 1959- The second document, Exhibit 12 for ' identification, is on the letterhead of the De partment of t:e Davy, Naval Ship Engineering Center, Philadelphia division, Philadelphia. It is addressed to the Ce.uerai Dynamics Corporation, Electric Boat division, Croton, via the Supervisor of Shipbuilding, Conversion & Repair U5N, Groton, from officer in charge, Naval Ship Engineering CentsrPhiladelphia division, subject "Shipyard Practices in Combating the Hazards Attending the Use of Insulating Materials; Request for Information Concerning; ' NA7SECPKILADIV Project FA-237," dated 30 April 1969. On the as bottom there is a second date marking, 6 May ' . Two-page document, signed by J. V/. Murdock. PRODUCED JM - 83 MT-PWHD-016182 r- r r 251 BY MR. DeA-IGELO: - q Mr. Murad, my nans Is Vincent DeAngelo. I represent Cv;ens-Corning Fiberglas. Mr. Murad, ycu indicated earlier that there was a task on a California ship to see if asbestos-free or non asbestcs-ccntaining high-temperature insulation could do the job that asbestos-containing insulation had done previously? i D j -- >, +- Q Do you remember what the date of that task -- I am going to refer to that, by the way, for shorthand, as California task -- ' A Okay. , . Q Do you remember what the date of that California task was? ' A Sometime in either -- probably the summer -- it started, I believe, .-in the summer of '72. Q Did this California'task deal specifically with one individual ship? A Yes. Q Do you know the name of that ship? A I can't remember the name of it, no. w .;ss tnetas,: successi u^.: SANDERS. GALE & RUSSELL Ccrthi ^ : r i ' v r c i'.;: JM - 83 MT-PWHD-016183 r- n n 2 32 A ' The task was net .complete when I left. I understand that the insulation they used was not found to be satisfactory for shipboard purposes. .. . Q How did you acquire this understanding? A I spoke to someone. Probably it was Al Winer, but someone in the -- still in that area. Q Do you know in what regard the non asbestos- containing insulation was unacceptable? A Well, from th$ way I understood it, it didn't -- it broke up too easily. It didn't withstand the rigors of shipboard stress, the movements of the ship, that kind of thing. Q '' So it was more of a mechanical-type problem than an insulation quality type of problem; is that correct? *' A. V/ellj. it is hard to separate the two. If the < i insulation breaks, then It is no good any more. If it is not there, obviously, it is not doing the job. The intrinsic R factor, you know, is fine. q Do you have any knowledge of what temperatures i were reached in these high-temperature pipes? : A The water temperature inside -- inside the ' boiler, the water temperature was,for a 12CO-pound boiler, SANDERS. GALE a RUSSELL PRODUCED M - 83 MT-PWHD-016184 r n n was 563 decrees, as I recall. That's the boiling point al that pressure. The outside temperature of the pipes, of :aurse, is -- tne lr'i*re side of the pipes -- of the boiler, rather, I should say -- reaches even higher temperature. ' They go up to about -- this is 'only a guess on my part -- around 900 to 11C3 degrees. . Q Do you know if there were any representatives from your section or from the coatings division or section to ASTM prior to the time that you were a representative to ASTM? A I don't know-. . Q After you ceased to be a representative and with that section, do you know if anyone from the Havy took your place? .. . . A Mo, I don't knov/ that, either. Q You indicated that when you first went to coatings you consulted some reference books regarding thermal insulation. Do you know where those books, if they still exist, would be located today? A I borrowed them from the MA7DTC library. Q That is in Arlington? . A 'well, it was in Hyattsviile, Maryland. SANDERS. GALE & RUSSELL PRODUCED Ji - 83 MT-PWHD-016185 r- r r A ' Yes, it is in Arlington now. Q You indicated that at various tines trip r ;or were made out, and you didn't know* whether they nay hav iSt a a kept or rr.ay not have been kept? A Right. n Mould you know' how we v;ould go about f inding them if thGv v/ere kept? A The only logical p lace that I can expe ct them to be would be in the insulation area now. Q You may have - gor.e over this; I 'm sorry . On the 5100.25 instruction, you made trips to ins sect at various shipyard s, which'I understand you are net iT.Q Lr 0 . be allowed to answer questions about. But did you make trip reports? A There may have been seme -- HR. ROv/INSKI: 'wait a. minute. _ MR. DeANGELG: I am prefacing -- I know you are not going to let him -- BY MR. DeANGELO: Q Did you make trip reports on those trips? MR. NOb'IMSKI: I told you we were not going to answer questions about these trips. j6n.rj_jC \ _l WctS nets S'J.r'S Ciiciu* _L i l c c^ produced JM - 83 MT-PWHD-016186 CO ac reports he made afterwards or only his inspection at that tine. BY`MR. DeAMGZLG: . Q Have you ever visited the Electric Boat t installation? A No. .. i '! Q One point we went over: 'You listed various departments that dealt with asbestos insulation, and one of , which was 6147, and 1 thiijk you indicated they were boiler people? : A Yes. 'I Q Do you knov; any names of any personnel- in that department during the period that you were with coatings? ' A V.'ell, Ted Lund was a section chief there. Allan ; Lee was the head of the 61*7 division, I think they called it. Q . Did you have any discussions with these people regarding the asbestos reduction task that you were working on? -I .' 'i A Only a little, if we had any. ! 3 If you answered this earlier this morning, bear with me; I'm sorry. But did you review any documents prior to coming to testify today and yesterday? ; 1 1 A Ho. SAN2ERS. GALE a RUSSELL C r '::: - Iv c : r: t r PRODUCED Hit MT-PWHD-016187 r- 236 r Q Did you talk to anyone? A % Q Just government attorneys. . While you were in Annapolis and were dealing with, I think-it was, submarine atmosphere, you indicated that you were not dealing with asbestos or dust content? /hat's correct. Q `/hat were you dealing with, just gaseous content of the atmosphere? ; A That's correct. : Q You indicated that at coatings your department or your group at times -- your priorities were set by ; pressures that you would get from up above. Do you recall any pressure -- I use that word in the sense that you were . using it, in the sense of pushing to get something dene -- on ; the asbestos task? A ` Yes. From time to time, there was a need to ; : address questions that arose on asbestos; for example, that ; " -i 08 letter that was referred to earlier. And there are others, ; yes. '! 9' Can *you describe for me the function of the chemistry and toxicology unit? Ii\ i 1 A Yes. That unit had three main purposes. One SANDERS, GALE a RUSSELL "C~ K c r r c: MT-PWHD-016188 r r r ! 37 was chemical cleaning -- chemical the various methods.of using chem pure uses cn board snip -- water t itme.nt and fire-fighting cnemdeals. Water treatment I th I explained before. . Fire-fighting chemicals, i think, are obvious from the term. The chemical, biological and toxicology interests were reviewed and kept up -with, addressed. Cherobrier and Frank Lovell got involved in that. , ' j 3 At one point v*e -were dealing with a document or a standard or specification-- I'm not sure which -- SS-C-^66, four grades, accor ding to my note, a grade UG , A 3 2, grade triple n , d grade triple A-M. Could you tell me briefly -- you may have done it once; I'm sorry -- the temperature gradients that those grades -were -- - A I'd have to look in the spec again. MR. LEVY: Do you want him to read it from . Q the spec? That's fine. " A Is that a good enough answer? i r* 0 V-k ^ i * - ' that a rood enough answer? I would have to SANDERS. GALE a RUSSELL produced M - 83 MT-PWHD-016189 r- r r 263 refer to the specification. All right, would you refer to the specification. I'm looking through it now. I haven't found it in here Okay, he re ' s s om s t h ir.g.. - record, the witness has reviewed June 19, 1962 interim revision of 33-C-466C, marked Defendants' (Murad) Exhibit 3, ar.d has identified responsive information on page 10. Mr. DeAngelo, I think the information you want is identified on that page. The witness has also examined interim amendment of 17 June 1365 to -spec 3S-C-465E, marked as Defendants' (Murad) Exhibit 4, and has identified parallel information on page 3 of that document. . Q Mr. Murad, is it your understanding that the products listed as grades double A, triple A and triple A-M, or the products which would meet the specifications, are interchangeable products? . MR. LEVY: Interchangeable -with what? SANDERS. GALE & RUSSELL PRODUCE MT-PWHD-016190 r r n MR. DeAMGELO: With each other. A Could you repeat that, please? *3 Is it ycur understanding.that products which would meet specifications double A, triple A, triple A-M, are interchangeable with each other? A The various products that would meet that spec? I v/ould say yes. Q In the asbestos reduction program -- I am trying to understand ycur processes a little bit -- why was it not roduct 3 which met grade triple A, .r prior testimony , only had 1G percent asbestos, and sp< ify out ri 1 1 /-> f" -3 \J Uuuu l/b .meeting- grades double A and triple A-M? A Well, this i: what we did do in the revision to 769, as I recall. Q - You indicatec earlier that when you wanted to change a specification for insulation products, at least, after the .\Tavy review cycle, you would send it to MIMA for their review and comments. - Do you know who Initiated or who set up that procedure of sending proposed changes to MIMA? .iO , i Uwli SANSERS. GALE 4 RUSSELL C :r; hh ; . JM - 83 MT-PWHD-016191 On cn r r r 290 q ' This nay have been asked, but, just to make sure: Do you recall if you made any visit to any shipyard regarding asbestos other than those visits which you made for the purposes of inspecting or checking for instruction 5100.26? . THE MITMESS: Could you repeat that question again, please? MR. DeAMGZLQ: 'Could you read it back, please. # . (The pending question was read.) MR. MGVJIMSKI: Mr. DeAngelo, I think that question has been asked and gene into quite thoroughly earlier today, from every conceivable context or perspective. -MR. DeAMC-ZLO: I appreciate your consents, - Mr. Nowinski. MR. NCV.'INSKI: The point being- that ' considerable amount of tine was consumed along that line of inquiry, if I an not mistaken, and I would like tc avoid repeating it. An I mistaken that it was inquired into? ' MR. DeAMGZIO: Mv notes do not reflect it SANDERS. GALE & RUSSELL Ccrnric : r cn >r y c <:. *r: cr rs s, Jiimsa MT-PWHD-016192 r r n- 29- being inquired into in that way. has been asked in various ferns, and I would just ' like the answer to the question, hr. Howinski. MR. MOWIMGKI: It is yes or no. ; t Would you read back the question. ; . .i (The pending question was again read.) ! i A Yes. '! Q At one point you were asked 'whether you knew if : . * . ' i the Philadelphia shipyard#were given any 'written instructions : regarding asbestos reduction, .and I believe your answer was that you did not know that as a fact? .. , { A That's correct. Q V/as it your impression or is it your impression that they received written instructions regarding asbestos iI . reduction? A ~ Yes. " Q Kow did you form that impression? A '.fell, that's the normal '.way of doing business ; ! ! ' ; with field activity. -. Q You testified that you had no direct contact with ; OSHA. Have you had any indirect contact `.with C3HA, vour answer regarding asbestos? 1 1 had -- yes, I'd say indirect. SLIDERS. GALE a RUSSELL PRODUCED - 83 MT-PWHD-016193 r 32 Q 'Mould you describe the nature of those indirect contacts? *A I knew that CSKA was considering putting some conditions on. the use and working'with asbestos . Q Very early on yesterday., I believe you testified that the first knowledge you had of an asbestos problem or an asbestos situation, whatever, not to use a pejorative term, was that there had been allegations of health hazards regarding the use of asbestos. ' . Can you tell'.me what your understanding was of the nature of those health hazards? MR . :iOV:i:JSKI: Mr.. DeAngelo, that was inquired into and fully answered yesterday with regard to an article published in The New York : Times and/or The 'Washington Post, and I do not intend to keep this witness here having the same questions put "* yesterday. to him that wereput to him j . i! 'j MR. DeANGELO: Mr. Nowinski, my notes ; indicate he was asked what his belief wasof the nature of these health hazards, and you instructed tr.e wetness net to answer eras cuestj.on, are j. SANDERS. GALE St R'JSSELL (_ e r:!:yr: Ry r; :! PRODUCED JM-83 MT-PWHD-016194 r r n 233 believe that question was posed cy Mr. Montstream and it was not pursued any further. My question to him is -what was his -- I do not remember what 'word I used, cut I specifically did not frame it in terms of his beliefs., because you would not permit him to answer that question yesterday. MR. IIOV'IIJSKI: Do you want to ask him what he was told or what he read about those articles? MR . DeA^'OELO: I would like to ask him the question j_ as wee n 1 m and have that answered. 7 wouldn't mind asking him what he read or what he was told afterwards, *>*'+* T o u v .* ^ -- tij U*. O want to know basically what his understanding of the nature of the health problem was. That is all I am looking for. Could you read the question back, please? (The pending question was read.) MR. NO V/1 ITS KI: . I will not let him answer that, Mr. DeAngelo. You can ask him what his j { ; understanding of the allegations that he testified to were. . . . Mr. uew.hGuLo; may u ask tne grounds xor SANCERS. GALE i RUSSELL Certified Re: _- MT-PWHD-016195 r_ i 29 your refusal to let him answer that question, . Mr. Uowinski? * MR. MOMIMSKI: Yes. Oppression, harden, undue cansurr.ption of time and lack of relevance, j in light of yesterday's examination on the same subject. Let's go off the record a second. (Discussion off the record) . MR. DeAMGSLO: Let's go back on the record. SY MR. DeAMGELO: ' Q Mr. Murad, what was your understanding of the - nature of the alleged health hazards of asbestos? * /v "* . A My understanding of the nature of the alleged . ' health hazards of asbestos were that it caused lung disorders 1 and lung cancer. . ' .' Q. That was your understanding in 1969; is that II j j \ f j '1 { ! I 1 ; correct? A That's what the -- that's what was alleged, yes. Q Did your understanding of the nature of the alleged hazards of asbestos change between 1963 and 1972, when you left the coatings unit? rt i i O . SANDERS. GALE i RUSSELL C r!::. ; v itc; .ir:vr- PRODUCED JM 83 MT-PWHD-016196 P- r n 295 MR. DeAMGELO: I have no further Questions. Thank you. BY * EE. BEDFORD: . Q Mr. Murad, ny name is-Fred Bedford, and ram here *. . ' i for Pittsburgh-Corning. I only have a couple of questions ; for you. , 1 MR. BEDFORD: First of all, for the record, I would like to reserve my rights to question ; into the area of insoections concerning the : instruction.- ; j Q Earlier, yesterday, you testified that at one time or another you spoke with representatives from Pittsburgh- Coming and at some tine became aware of certain testing that they were doing in California. Isthat correct? - A Yes, they -were sponsoring the testing at the j ]I University of California. Q V/ho advised you of that? A I don't know who first advised me of it; ' Cherobrier, perhaps, someone at 3UMED. But there was a ; i i j ! ! ; representative of Pittsburgh-Corning that we spoke with. 1 Q Do you know the name of that particular individual? PRODUCED ; JM -83 MT-PWHD-016197 f' :r n 296 Q You mentioned yesterday a Mr. Sinclair. . it have been him? Could ! ' *A Mo, It wasn't; at least he didn't go into it in the detail that Ohio other gentleman did. ' ' ' ' Q What were you told concerning the testing? .. . A That tests were being run to determine--- to , I j j verify the work that Selikcff had performed. .j q "Chat time frame are v:e talking about that you : v/ere first advised of this testing? . A 1 believe it -was in early '73. ,' Q Were you advised of the results of this test? A I -- yes, I learned of the results. . Q Who advised you of the results? : A I believe it was someone from BUMSD. j Q What was your understanding of the results? : A My understanding was that the work more or less substantiated 'what Selikoff hadreported. ! . ' .. I Q Did you speak with anyone from Pittsburgh-Corning : concerning those results? A I don't think so, no. . - r> What other communicationsdid you have with j i : ! ' reoresen-atives :rom SANOERS. GALE a RUSSELL MT-PWHD-016198 r r <i 3 I time that you were in the coating unit? A As I mentioned, Mr. Sinclair came by from time to t. time and -- Q V.'hat did he discuss 'with you? A Oh, any type of problem.that involved any of Fittsburgh-Corning1s products. To the best of your knowled cr o y * as Pittsburgh- Corning involved in changes to difreran t specs? A lell, they wene represent - " jT, T ~i.i sure they were represented at IT IMA and at ASTM, and in that way they could participate in specification changes. rs Other than any involvement that you feel they may have had'with those.two organizations, do you have any other knowledge that Pittsburgh-Corning was involved in any changes to MIL specs? A- Changes? Tell, there's always the indirect way of making suggestions during a conversation. Q Were any such suggestions made to you by representatives of Fittsburgh-Corning? - A There may have been. Q V.rho may have made those? A V.'eli, any one of the people that visited. PRODUCED JM - 83 MT-PWHD-016199 r r r 2$3 Q When you say "nay have," does that mean that you do not recall? '' *A I don't recall specifically; that's correct. '. MR. TEDFCRD: I have no further questions 3Y MR. LEVY: . Q Mr. Muradj you mentioned Mr. Sinclair, Did you ever meet a Mr. Messer from Pittsburgh-Coming? A Messer. The name sounds familiar. Q James Messer? A Soundsfamiliar. Q In addition to the people that you have already mentioned who you recall by name, would it be correct to say that there may have been other representatives of these various manufacturers who visited you and discussed the products but whose names you cannot recall at the present time? A Yes. " ' Q Mould it alsobe fair to say that the practice of manufacturers' representatives coming in to see you was one that went on virtually throughout the time that you were working in the coating section? A Yes. SANDERS. GALE & RUSSELL Csr'dk* : p.ji-.-rc: PRODUCED Ji-83 MT-PWHD-016200 Q ' And that what was done during these meetings was to bring you up-to-date with changes and developments in the products that they were manufacturing, as well as other things? A Yes. ' Q VJerethey,in a sense, serving as a method by which the manufacturers brought information about technical' developments that they were making to the attention of the government? , MR. 1*0HER : Object to the form. MR. IICvilNSXl: You can answer. A I'd say yes. Q This would be done both orally and by leaving the written material that you described, these product specifica tion sheets and these sheets, out of the iooseleaf book that you have mentioned? A Yes. Q I assume that you did pay attention to what they 'weretelling you and you did read their material? ! j ! A Most of the time, yes. ! I Q In addition to -- I think you mentioned Mr. Tower 1 from Jo hr. s -M a n v 111 e ? SANDERS. GALE & RUSSELL Ccrnfui Mtn.uvri Re;- <_: - PRODUCED JM -83 MT-PWHD-016201 r r n pCu A Right. 0 Did you ever deal with Mr. Charles Ernst? `A Ernst? That name sounds familiar, too, but I can't say with a hundred percent certainty. Cut the name does sound familiar. Q How about a Hr. V/inabladt, 3. C. V/indbladt? A 'Jindbladt. That could be, but it is vague. Q Hr. Skelley? ' A Skelley. Th^t sounds -- yes, Skelley. I remember that name. Q From Johns-Manville? ' A I think he was from Johns-Manville, yes. Q How about, a Mr. Manahan? A V.'hat 'was that last name? A Manahan, from Johns-Manville. A - Could beV : Q Did you have any dealings with or meet a Mr. Fowler from Johns-Manville? a -owj.er? - Q Yes, Gus Fowler. . A That name sounds familiar, too. ' Some of these ceoole I met just once or twice SANCERS. GALE & RUSSELL C-r! : ! R r-,-- PRODUCED ldi -'83' ' MT-PWHD-016202 r r n 301 for -- occasionally only briefly or just by phone, so -- it does sound familiar, though. k Q ' How about a Bob Simmons? ' A Simmons. That name sounds familiar, too. Q Also from Jchns-iianville. So, in the course of your activities, either coming in to see you or as a result of meetings at AST." meetings , you had contact with a fair number of Johns-Manville people? A Yes. Q Did they also, in the course of their dealings with you, try to. bring you up-to-date as to what technical developments were going on with Johns-Manvilie in the asbes tos field? A Yes, that certainly was part of the conversation. Q You mentioned a couple of trade organizations. You mentioned TIMA at one point, and I think you were asked i a question about the Asbestos Textile Institute. Do you j remember that? | ! A I remember the cuestion. * ' " i | 0 I think you indicated you did not remember whether: | you had any dealings with them? - ; SANDERS. GALE & RUSSELL C c : . ` i ! v r : !\ ,, :r i >. r PRODUCED JM - 83 MT-PWHD-016203 r r n 302 .d vou ever have any dealings with a Mr. interry name sounds famil. -- j He was associated with ATI. Okay Q Does that help you remember talking to. him? A I remember either talking to him or receiving some letter from him. Q Do vou recall.whether that letter dealt with the specifications dealing with asbestos cloth? A If he was from Asbestos Textile Institute, that would be a natural conclusion, but I can't remember the -- I can't remember it specifically right now. Q Do you recall having any contacts 'with the Magnesia Silica Manufacturers Association? A - Could be. Could be. It -wasn't much -- it is possible. Q Do you remember a Marshal Allen? A Marshal Allen? The name, itself -- you know, here again, it is vague, but it is certainly possible. Q You discussed a little bit your dealings in ASTI :.as .i'j sssera^aluy or -- vase j* ou^ j as ^.S v.nju.iiiWu -- x SANCER3. GALE RUSSELL Ccrtri.;; k .* h !** dr* Jl-83 MT-PWHD-016204 r. r r 30 3 government group? ' A Yes, it was composed primarily of industrial- type people, but certainly tiers was participation by government. , Q I think you indicated that representatives of ! I ' various manufacturers attended the ASTI! specification meetings? A V/ell, I only attended one meeting, and that : meeting, yes, they were represented there. * -' . Q Did that include representatives from Johns- : ! ! Manville? i A Yes. ; Q Could you tell me as best you can recall at this point what other companies that dealt in the asbestos product i area were also at the meeting? A There were quite -- . i j i i ' ' MR. -MOHER: Are you referring now to that , .i one meeting that youjust -- i .i r-TR. LEVY: That is right. ; A (Continuing) There were quite a number there. ; I know people from Eagle Picher were there. Tost of the people we did business with were there, people whose names -- you knew, the companies that have already been mentioned. SANDERS. GALE a RUSSELL C. c r: i ; : K . :- r* t r PRODUCED JI - 83 ' MT-PWHD-016205 r r r 30J QQ V/hen you say the companies that have already been mentioned, you mean companies like Owens-Corning, Pittsburgh- t' Corning, Eagle Picher and H. E. Porter? - A -That's right. Q That group of companies? A They were represented. Q Was one of the primary purposes of ASTM to set ' standards for different products? A Yes, to set standards and testing procedures. Q Isn't it correct that, as you drafted or worked on the standards for the Mil specs, the ASTM standards were frequently incorporated into the MIL specs? ' A Yes, they were. Q If there was a change made in the ASTM standard that was specified in the MIL spec, would that have the effect of changing the MIL spec? A It would have that effect, yes. Q So it would be fair to say that, if ASTM, for whatever reason, decided to change its particular~ specification, that, in turn, would lead to a change i.T the It could happen that way, yes SANDERS. GALE 5 RUSSELL C c r: i: i ; i: ^ f c :i o: v r? c K v :* " r \ c r PRODUCED JM - 83 MT-PWHD-016206 305 f MR. MOHnR: Object to the form. : Q t I assume from what you said that you did not vote at the ASTM meeting chat you attended? _ , A No, I didn't. ' : 'i 0- Just if we could take any one of the MIL specs -- !I if v;e take Exhibit 3, which is the cloth, thread and. tape, ' asbestos, MIL spec, and if you refer to paragraph 2.2, would that be the paragraph that essentially incorporates the ASTM spec? ' * . . ; i : A . q 3-2 did you say, sir? 2.2. . ' : i I A 2.2. Yes. Q All right, let me give you another one, the one on insulation felt. Exhibit 2. Mould you also look at paragraph 2.2 there. - A Yes, that's it. Q Is that kind of, in the sense of the format, then, a consistent position for the incorporation by reference of the A3TM standards? '. A It is common practice to co tnat, yes. > i i i MR. NONIUSKI: -For the record, the document you jus eferred to is Exhi . o SA\`CS'RS. GALE a RUSSELL C r t * * *1 ` ' ` ' ~ ` v r d c' vt ! PRODUCED 1 ' Ji - 83 MT-PWHD-016207 n r 306 MR. LEVY: Yes. -y <**rp T '!7,'"?V ft 3 One ether thing that earns up that I v;ou!d like to clarify: ' You were asked a question about various MIL specs that you had sons input into, when the question of MIL 1-2731 care up. That is the specification dealing with ', insulation, pipe, thermal. Do you remember that? A Yes. * q I think you raised a question as to whether . that applied to asbestos? A Right. As I recall, that was a fiberglass ateriai. Let ;e -- A Is that correct? Do you have that .spec? Q Yes, I do. I would like you to take a look at It. I have the one dated -- > MR. LEVY: Oh, do you have it? MR. WOVIMSKI: Mo. ' . . .. THE WITLESS: This is just a list ing here, MR. MOVI.WSKI: ' But I wanted hir to look at the listing. sancers. gale a f.'jssell fl\r Jj t\5 " S -I MT-PWHD-016208 r r r 307 BY MR. LEVY: Q I would just like you to look at it ana be sure, so*ycu could tell me whether it does or it doesn't. . MR., MQ'YIjSKI : Off the record. ' (Discussion off the record) MR. MOVINSKI: Stan, the MIL spec set forth on pass 1 of Exhibit 5 is MIL 1-2731, and the - specification you have just handed him is MIL ; I-27S1D. , : MR. LEVY: I arc sorry. Are we talking : about Just the difference in the follow-on, a ; change, or are you saying that it is a different a MIL spec? . MR. NOVIMSXI: The document you have asked ; him to review is designated MIL I-27S1D, dated 13 ' - June 1963, superseding MIL I-2731C, dated ; February 15, 1930. i MR. LEVY: I am not sure if you are ' j telling me something or just telling me that it is .I t not -- ; 'I MR. MOWIMSXI: -I am trying to point out : that, from the face of the two documents,, those SANDERS. GALE h RUSSELL "i v r-.' !'. ^r: r r PRODUCED -83 MT-PWHD-016209 r _}pUP`j that you have just handed the witness, and Exhibit 5, 'which refers to MIL 1-2731, without any suffix , t. they are different documents. BY MR. LEVY: MR. LEVY: Ail right. ' " ' Q If you take the MIL 1-2781 series of military specifications, and using D, which Is the one I have given you, which still precedes the period of the asbestos elimination program, coulq you tell from that whether the MIL spec applies to asbestos for pipe covering or -whether' it excludes asbestos? ' A I don't see -- this is not the spec I 'was thinking of when I said fiberglass, now that I'm reading it. Just based on the fact that it Is preformed, it doesn't specify in the specification the composition of the material. This is -- this is a performance spec. It identifies the kind of characteristics that we 'want to see in the material, without identifying the composition. Q So would it, then, be correct to say, 'Mr. Murad, to 'the extent yesterday you indicated that 2731 -was fiberglass and eliminated or excluded asbestos, that that answer should be changed? produced JU - 83 MT-PWHD-016210 r- r r 3 C9 nA Yes, I was wrong. This is not a fiberglass spec, based on the fact that it is preformed pipe insulation. ; ThS.t doesn't mean to say that you couldn't use some fiberglass. in it as par t of the compcsit ion,'but it is nou jUSi. i fiberglass. 'j Q Are you saying, then, to comply with MIL 1-2731, . the manufacturer had the option to put in a filler which could be asbestos or could be fiberglass or could be something1 else -- ' , "' j ; A That's correct. MR. SCKL'AETZ:Objection. '' : i j 0 -- as long as it met the specifications? . ' MR. SCHwARTZ: Objection. ' , A' I -would say -- THE WITNESS: Can I answer? I t ; * i'irv wor*/**\j. u . f C3 j ' ' . ' i A -- it could be anything that met those performance; .i i characteristics. j Q Asbestos or nonasbestos? -- i A That's correct. Q Tou -were ashed a whole series of questions yesueraay cy * ir. r,cv/u a'-Ouw- yo-> ooserv-uiiion c: zm 1 i ; V SANDERS. GALE & RUSSELL Cert'.:;.- . '-tro-v; o IIc; 'r: cr. u MT-PWHD-016211 n r ___ ' 310 which pipe covering was installed. Do you remember that? A *Q Yes. I third: you were ashed to try to fix the date, and I think the best you could do was to say it was probably *. sometime after 1970 out before the OSHA standards went into . i , effect ? A That OSHA standard went into effect, I understand, around December of '71; is that right? A That's probably about the right time period. Q Having,I am sure, thought about this carefully all night, can you come up with any closer date than that? A I didn't think about it that carefully all night. I didn't think about it at all, as a matter of fact. Q I am surprised. . A- I don't think I can pinpoint the time any better. Q Was this -- and it may be that I just misunderstood what you said -- observation at Charleston, or were you saying that you were sick at Charleston and did not observe -- Ho, I was sick at Charleston. .idn't observe anything at charleston SANDERS. GALE & RUSSELL C .-r:: : -j t - - X r r; < r PRODUCED JM -83 MT-PWHD-016212 n r r Could you tell me whers you did observe the pipe A It v;as at one cf the yards that I had. visited, and it was on-board ship. I can't remember which one it was. I v;ent to several yards, went to those yards I had mentioned. Q At least we could say with assurance that it was not at the Electric Boat shipyard; couldn't we? A ho, it was not at Electric Boat; that's correct, q 'Could it be correct to say that you have not been to the Electric Boat shipyard? A Vo~ c^ J it is correct to say that q I s it also correct to say that yourself, had any pers cr.al contact with th personnel? .- A I'd say that, certainly, as far as insulation is concerned- that's correct. Q I am only interested in asbestos insulation. A Yes, that's correct. Q Have you ever had any -written contact with the Electric Boat yard, dealing with asbestos insulation? A Mot that 1 recall. Q I think you had indicated that you did not have SANDERS. GALE A RUSSELL Cert;":.-: '".t: r* <r PRODUCED MT-PWHD-016213 r n r 312 i any with the Groton SUPGMI? office, dealing with asbestos insulation? A I don't recall any with Groton. . q You were also asked a couple of questions this . i morning about MIMA and the meetings that you had with some of j the manufacturers' representatives in which they gave you . their position. I think you said they told you at that time there was no better choice available, dealing with replacing . the asbestos. Do you remember that? Hr. tti?t O^tTT.r * - Li Deject to the form cj ; Question. A Right. MR. HGHER: I will join that. MR. DeA.'IGELO: Objection. 3Y MR. LEVY: . 5 Did any of the manufacturers' representatives, during this period from '69 to '72, tell you that they v/ere working on products which they claimed could contain asbestos but the asbestos would be locked in so it would not become airborne? MR. MDMTSTRZAM:- Objection. A I think that coir.t was brought up. . SANDERS. GALE a RUSSELL Ccr::*V.'.: " ' v -7 c rttr MT-PWHD-016214 r r 313 Q Do you recall who told you that they had developed a safe asbestos product? .` A I'm trying to think 'who that was. . . MR. DeAMGELO: Object to the form. ; MR. COOMEY: Objection. MOHER: Obj ection. l _ MR. SCHV.'ARTZ : Objection. MR. STAiiGtR; Cbjection. MR. ke;i:;y = Object ion. MR. N0V7IMSXI : If there i the form. I -would like to know w obj action is, to g ive counsel an correct the defect and create a Is anyone able to articulate the form, or defect? - MR. DeAMGELO: Yes. My objection to the form, at least, Peter, was that I do not believe that that is a fair summary of what Mr. Murad had just testified to. - MR. NGV/IM3XI: May we have the question read back. ' ' Both Questions. SANGER5. GALE & RUSSELL Corn-ic A;:;. :v:c i: PRODUCED -83 MT-PWHD-016215 r (The record was read.) A (Continuing) I don't knov; who it was. *Q Do you recall anybody ever providing you with any written material to try to establish that the asbestos would be locked in and would not become airborne when used aboard h'avy ships? A As I recall, there, was a product that was a hard asbestos, but it was mainly for use in bulkheads as a fire door, forming a fire barrier. Q 'Chat do you mean by a hard asbestos? A It 'would be a milled product that- would not be - it would be similar to a slate material, which would not flake off very readily, if at ail. ' Q Is that something like a Millboard? A Like a Millboard, that's correct, and that these things could be made' into -- the same material could be made Into a preformed pipe insulation. Q By "pipe insulation" you mean a molded covering? A Molded coverings. I believe -- to the best of my recollection, that was -- Johns-Manvllle had something along those lines-- . Q How about in the -- SAUCERS. GALE a RUSSELL C e r:.: i... S: n t v r ,, R - e r produced JM -83 MT-PWHD-016216 r. n 315 A -- and -- i' r, sorry to aneaa, A Okay. I ;as quite expensive, very expensive, and it v;as heavy. * ' Go ahead. Q I v;as just going to ask you if anybody made the suggestion to you or told you that they had a product in the, A Not that I retail that was completely encased or encapsulated, such that it could not cone -- so it would not cone out. The only -- other than perhaps the cloth. The cloth could be covered with an adhesive or with paint. Q Do you recall any manufacturers ever telling you that they had developed such a product in the cloth or textile area? - A * There was information that was given to me to the extent -- to the effect that there was less airborne asbestos resulting from some of the products that were being developed, but not that there 'would be no asbestos at all. Q So it was just a natter of reducing the asbestos that would beeone airborne? . A Yes . SANDERS. GALE a RUSSELL Ce::.';-.'- ':i?r> .1 v r R vr: :r produced " 83 MT-PWHD-016217 r Q ' There was a lot of discussion about the asbestos elimination program, and I do not intend to go into it with you. Hut is it correct to say that the goal o f the Navy was to totally eliminate asbestos from, the ships? A yes. Q That's the ultimate -- that was the ultimate goal I That still remains the goal, does it not, to totally eliminate asbestos? A I don't know t^he answer to that. I imagine that is true. ' Q As of the time you left, it was still - A At the time I left, it was still the goal, yes. Q The work you were doing was progressing toward that ultimate goal; was it not? A Yes'. 0 - The reason that you accepted products with lesser^ asbestos content rather than total elimination was because you could not meet the mission? A That's correct. - Q But the goal never changed; did it? j i ! A The ultimate goal was. still the same. ! Q The reason for the goal was because of she health ii PRODUCED JM - 83 MT-PWHD-016218 r r r 31' implications and the health dangers associated with using the asbestos insulation? ' A .' That's 'cased on the information that was given to me. Q -r*-f <7 A V.'hich you really have no reason to question; That? s correct. -- ! Q As far as the discussions that you mentioned -- I ! .i think you had one with Commander Barboo at BJIhED -- did you ever have any meetings where BUMED people or people from : Public Health Service made any type of presentation to you : and to the others who were working on the asbestos- elimina tion program, explaining to you why they felt that asbestos should be eliminated? ; A No, I don't recall that, that kind of meeting. ' Q ` So you just accepted it, and you went ahead from that point in attempting to eliminate the asbestos? ; A Yes, that's correct. Q You were asked a couple of questions this morning about the qualified products list. Do you remember that? `A Q Yes. . Is it correct to say that the government does not SAUCERS. GALE & RUSSELL : p `' Kit t; >. r PRODUCEO JM-83 MT-PWHD-016219 rr n 313 compel any manufacturer to apply to be put onto the qualified products list? t - - . '' A :io , there's no -- there is nothing mandatory about Q A manufacturer does it because he wants to do it? I ! MR. MOKiR: Object to the form. ' Q Ke wants to sell his products to the government; right? MR. MOH^R: Object to the form. MR. DeAMGEIC: Object to the form. MR. COYMZ: Objection. ' frrt >" <-* x.nr. !.uHinoo: hall I answer? MR. 'IOV/IMSKI: Yes H I would assume so. That would be the natural -- that would be my -- that's my impression, yes. . Q Regardless of what the product we may be talking about, whether it is asbestos or whatever, the manufacturer . always has the option, does it not, to either try to become a | i government supplier and to have a qualified product or not. The government does not impose any compulsion on them; does it? . . ! .ou're rignt. xhey are :ree to ao it or not ao SANDERS. GALE a RUSSELL PRODUCED JM - 83 MT-PWHD-016220 r C' r j-*-? i 5 Cais them see fIt. Q when you worked on the asbestos elimination program, did you ever at any tirr.e test any of the respir; cors that were available to determine their effectiveness? A No, I did not. '' 3 Do you know whether anyone in the government tested the respirators to determine their effectiveness? A I don't know. ' X' /.'ere you fami^i cLi* \ ;Ith ^ Vip Wild id'a'pw tV" Is td > Johns-' Manvilie in uro9, 9i 0 and f -r i (X v,r a, 3 i \i* V ^ S ^ O to determine th e effect! veness of a. no so develop' an effective ; respirator? A Not that I recall. Q That was never called to your attention; was it? A No, I don't recall it. Q In all the meetings that you had with Johns- Manville personnel, no one ever told you that J-M was doing that? A 'No. . *- n Mr. Schwartz marked this morning these two letters from the Philadelphia division, Exhibits 11 and 12. One of the letters ha: r.e seccnu a .'.ay SANDERS. GALE 1 RUSSELL C-.-f n 'tr i`. r rt.cr. produced JM-83 MT-PWHD-016221 r r r 320 of 19c9 date. ' Right, sir? A *Q Yes. Essentially, one letter is a letter to a manufacturerasking then if they can cone up with a product that either reduces or eliminates asbestos ; would that be a fair statement? A Y e s. ' 0; And the second is to a shipyard, asking then about their work *oractices with regard to asbestos? A Yes, that's correct. Q "Mould these letters havebeenletters that were sent out as part of the effort by the Navy, as part of this asbestos elimination program? MR. 3CHNARTZ: I object. Ke testified earlier that he could net recall seeing then. - How do you expect him now to testify as to -- MR. LEVY: Maybe with a little help. MR. SCH'MARTZ: I object to the line of cuesticr.ing. ~ MR. )kay. He is talking about the type of l6 w v 81 O 5 i. SANDERS. GALc 0 RUSSELL 0KUi.. JM - 83 MT-PWHD-016222 r 321 I A It .seems to me that these letters v;ould he In line with the work that Philadelphia was tasked to do. just really 'want to ask you one questic 3. C Ollt the dates V ou had said yesterday shah you 'ceiieve the stos that was and things like that, occurred in late 1; ,J<Oa ) T_ fJvii, --Li^. i A>. *.> A Right. ' 2. kith the letters in front of you and having had at least a chance to read^them .nd see the dates, does that lead you to change your view as to when the survey was conducted? A I don't think it does. I'm still not . a hundred percent sure when it was, out it is still my impression it was in the fail of T62. It would take time to complete the survey and then generate letters of this type. Q . So your -feeling -- A I think it is about in line with what my thoughts were yesterday. Q Your feeling would be that there had been some type of preliminary internal survey that preceded these letters which went out of the navy to private concerns? A That's right. f I SANDERS. GALE & RUSSELL Certified c n p e R : j ;:* c: } MT-PWHD-016223 r 322 Q You were asked a couple of times about the tests or the test that Pittsburgh-Coming; told you that they were k doing3 and you said at one point that you were told eventually that the results coincided with Dr. Selikoff's work; do you remember that? A Yes, they substantiated Selikoff's work, to my knowledge. MR. .KEHMY: It didn't coincide; he didn't say that. * MR. LEVY: I'm sorry, substantiated. E5V V'P : truv . Q Were you told this by Mr. Sinclair or someone else from Pittsburgh-Coming? A LTo, I believe it was someone at 3UMED. I believe that's who it was. . Q ' When you were told that they substantiated Dr. Selikoff's work, do you know what work of Dr. Selikoff the .Pittsburgh-Coming test substantiated? A Essentially, that the conclusions that Selikoff reached, that asbestos fibers eventually cause lung cancer. Q In the course of the work that you were doing on the asbestos elimination program, did you ever make any l 1 PRODUCED it - 83 MT-PWHD-016224 r- r n 323 comparisons between the same products of different ' manufacturers, as to determine v/hether UNARCO's Unibestos or J-M's Thernobestos gave off more dust or less dust when it was worked? . ' ' A No, I didn't perform any test like that. Q Do you know if anybody in the wavy did any tests comparing the asbestos release characteristics of different- manufacturers' products? A I don't know cjf any tests, no. MR. NCWTMoKI: Off the record. (Discussion off the record)' BY MR. LEVY: - Q Mr. Murad, from the point of view of the work that you -were doing on the asbestos elimination program, you had Indicated that the goal really was to bring about total elimination of asbestos; right, sir? A Yes. Q V/hen it became clear to you that you were not able to bring about total elimination of asbestos, was it at that point that the work began on the personal protection aspect; that is, to develop -- by. trying to get the improved 'working conditions, to offset or to pick up, because you SANDERS. GALE & RUSSELL CctHie.; .sv'tvse Rc; .r:C' PRODUCED JM - 83 MT-PWHD-016225 c C' n j2i couldn't bring about an eii.~ina.tion of the product, itself? A. Q Yell, that ail started prior to my tenure. ' You just have no knowledge, then? _ . A Right. - Q You had been asked a number of questions about . the military specification process, and I will try not to I I I repeat any of the questions that have been asked. out ' would it be correct to say that, in developing thespecifica- ; ticns, your office workedcloseiy with industry? ; Axes. j Q And that there was a flow of information back and forth between your office and industry representatives in' working on the specifications that were being developed? . A That's correct. j . MR. HORTSTREAM: Object to the question. MR. MCHER: Objection. . MR. DeARGZLO: Objection. ; BY MR. LEVY: ; Q You have told us about the meetings that you had : with various manufacturers. V'ould it ce fair to say that .' during the time that you were working in this area the t manufacturers were 'working or. the deveiocm.ent of new asbestos SANCERS. GALE i RUSSELL PRODUCED MT-PWHD-016226 r~-- n products or improving existing products? : A - I would -- MR. DeAMGZLO: Object to the form. ' MR. SCHWARTZ: Yes, I object to the form. , MR. MQHER: . Objection. ` . | ; i MR. CCOREY: Objection. . ! MR. SCHV'ARTZ': I do not think you mean that. MR. LEVY': mean it. * Let me rephrase itif I do not . . . ! i BY MR. LEVY: ; Q Would it be correct to say that , during the : period that you were working in coating, manufacturers brought to your attention the fact that changes had been made in their existing asbestos oroducts? * ! i MR. SCHWARTZ: Off the record for a second.: A Y e s. (Discussion off the record) . (The pending question was read.) : i j ! r Q Did theyalso bring to your attention' when new products were developed? A Yes, they did. .Q In bringing these changes and new products co , i ; I 1 SANDERS. GALE a RUSSELL Ccr'ilu .i ':> v j'v K-ri-rtcr" PRODUCED JM -83 MT-PWHD-016227 r r r~- 0/* your attention, was one of the purposes to alert you to the fact that the existing military specifications might not cover their products, either the new products or the changed products? , A That could be involved, yes. Q 7/hen that occurred -- that is, the specification no longer met the existing products -- did you then have to. begin work on trying to amend the specification to encompass these changes and these new products? A Yes, that was the normal scheme of things, to -- that's one way that the specification was updated. i ! Q , In drafting the specifications, either, a new ; a - . specification or a changed specification, -would it be correct ; i to say that you did consider the suggestions that were made to, } I you by industry, both companies as well as the trade ' organizations, about.the changes that should be made in the ' specifications? A Y e s. MR.MONTSTEEAM: Objection. A (Continuing) consideration. he took . --': -} theirrequests into . . j I j I j I ( ; I i i * SAWDERS. GALE & RUSSELL Ccrtiuo: > ca a: v p t K. - r : r: ,.- : MT-PWHD-016228 r .n f-* 327 Q On occasion hey even provide you with suggested changes in the language of the specifications? t. ' MR. MC'JTSTF.EAM: Objection. A Yes. Q Did they also provide you with test results to show you why certain things that they -were suggesting should be made? MR. M0N7STRZAM: Objection. MR. DeA.'iGZLC : Objection. A I think they did on occasion, yes. Q And -- ' MR. NOWIMSKI: Excuse me a moment. For the record, I want tc state the Government's position with regard to these objections, since these questions and answers bear on -the thirdparty complaints of the plaintiffs against the Government. . If you have an objection and if it is to the form of the question, you should advise the examining party what the claimed defect is, so that he has an opportunity to rephrase the question and cure the defect, if there is one; SANDERS. GALE 0 RUSSELL Lcr:i:': * re r- r - M-S 3 MT-PWHD-016229 r r r 323 and if you don't do that you are waiving you objection. MR. ;Dea.iGc.LiO On behalf of Mr. S .. :wo.*-!. rmH.'t Ch, just a *'t0 l'i. 1 . JELLEY: That is not th be y0 ur position, but it is wr *0 ' rrn ^ r-t^ T* ^ That is your position, but we -- ME. MOMTsMGKI: That is what I -- MR. MOEEE: I concur with Mr. Jeiley. That may be your position, cut i i` s 'wrong, and do not intend to be bound by it. .VP1 iM'iUr.1M* i'rqii.^ijprtriv'i . --t .U-/O-s ****<-+*u- agr ee to your position. MR. D 0 a * iuiiiLj0 * u-,v/6ns"'u0rni . aoes not look upon that as a waiver, Peter. MR. LEVY: Could you read GcC k the ques- tion. (The question referred to w as read. ) MR. DeAMGZIO: Excuse me, Pet er. Owens- Corning would like the Government to state the basis of its interpretation, so chat, if its SAUCERS. 0ALE 2 RUSSELL PRODUCED JM-83 MT-PWHD-016230 r r r 3^2 interpretation is incorrect, or the basis .of its position, we would have an opportunity to make sure that every tine we object to the form we go into details as to what it is; but, since it's made a position, Peter, I wonder if you could cite 1i me some portion of the Federal Rules making that . requirement. MR. MCMTMIXI: Mr. DeAngeio, I do not think I am under ar.j* legal obligation to continue your legal education or do your legal research for r.i'i. ahu.j i e wouuu line you to share your treasure trove, regardiess. TRV * VD " T" TV MR. LIVY: Can I go on? MR. MOMIMSKI: 3y all mea ns. q ' Mr. Murad, you testified that, when drafts of the specifications were prepared, either you or, I think you said, code 120 submitted those drafts to industry for review? A 1 `" To MIMA, yes. . To you knew whether they were also submitted to individual manufacturers as well as MIMA? PRODUCED JM-83 MT-PWHD-016231 230 'A Theirs was -- they could be It really depended on the specification. They could be . .manufacturers to get their input. eviev/ed cy specific If you take a specification like the one dealing with asbes tos pipe covering3'for example , woulu tnat nave been sent to the companies that you knew made asbestos pipe covering, such as Johns-Manvilie and Fit tsburgh-Ccrniag and other companies? MR. SC ARTZ : ' read back, please. Can I have the question (The pending 0 -u0 S U u. w* i was read. ) MR. :O*-/ it*, rift - u My qu estibn is whether or not you are inquiring of personal knowledge or inquiring on some other basis. MR. LEVY: I always assume that, .unless I am told otherwise, a witness answers based on knowledge. MR. KERRY: The witness' knov/ledge. MR. LEVY: Unless he tells me that he is assuming or speculating, I think the witness is presumed to be speaking from his knov/ledge. MR. 30KRAFTI: Ail right, [ f t M- 83S MT-PWHD-016232 r r r 331 A I don't know if that one was sent out to industry or not, for review, but it wouldn't be out of the question for it to be. That's one technique that is used. ' 0 You have also indicated that comments would cone back to you for review, and I think you had indicated that . I ; that frequently occurred with MIIIA , that you would- get ' connents from NIHA. ; A Yes, it happened. it did happen, yes. I don't know hew frequent, but 'i Q Then that occurred, you understood that MIMA was a trade association, representing a nunber of companies in 1 ' the asbestos industry; did you not? ' A That's correct. j Q V'hen you did get the connents back from MIMA, 1 ' assume that you read then and considered all of theconnents? j i . ` MR. SCKMARTZ: Object to the fern of the ' .1 question. : q Mould it be correct to say that you did read the j connents from MIMA? A Yes, I did. ~ Q And you did consider .what they had to say? ; j I 1 1 A Yes, I did. PRODUCED JM - 82 MT-PWHD-016233 rr 332 Q ' V/as that because you recognized that liZITA had a great deal of information, technical infornation, about the products that you were drafting the specifications concerning? A Yes, we needed the manufacturers and suppliers -- we depended on them to supply our material. * Q To supply you with information that you did not j l have because of their technical capability and background? ' ' A Sure; that's right. : ' ' ' t MR. DeA^GELO: Objectto the form of the i question. MR. SCilV.'ARTS : Objection. ' 1 i ; A (Continuing) The specification is used as a part of the procurement vehicle, and, unless the specifica tion was one that was in fact describing an attainable material, it wasno longer useful. MR.MOKER: Objection. Q Is that consistent with what you indicated :I ' i : yesterday, that the practice was to prepare the specification ; to cover existing products,that were already in existence? i Right? '1 Axes. .' ii ! 0 You mentioned the scees being used as a SANDERS. GALE 4 R'JSSELL C c r 11 f; * vi >r ~ \ * \ pm K, l* p f _ r > PSODUCED -83 MT-PWHD-016234 r r >33 procursnent device. By that: did you mean chat one of the purposes of the specification was so that it"would identify a % particular product 'ey welsht or number of picks or something like that, so, if somebody saw that item, they would know . that a particular Johns-Manvilie product or particular Pittsburgh-Corning product met the specification? . . i ! I MR. KERRY: Objected to as'being testimony; not as to form, but being testimony. ! MR. JZL1ZY: I object to the form of the question. I do noc think it is clear, ' MR. LEVY: I will rephrase it if it is not clear. . ; EY MR. LEVY: ' ' | Q Rhen you talk about it being used' as a procurewas the specification used as a rleans of existing products? A It could be. It could be. Q In a sense, in one sense, would it be correct to say that the specifications were very much akin to a manufacturer's own product list? A That sometimes hancened. ' I objeci ;o the form'o; SANDERS. GALE d RUSSELL PRODUCED JM - 83 MT-PWHD-016235 c r tion. CO'7'*-' * 0bj SC w rs u ? act MR. LEVY: Murad? Did- you A (Continuing) That sometimes happened.. Q when vou mot the comments back from MIMA or f; ar.y of the other trade groups, did you also occasionally meet with the executive secretaries or the members of the various committees to discuss their comments? MR. HOMTSTREAM: Objection. Sid Lf 3 H i i '-J Obj action A Mo, I didn't meet with them. I might make a phone call. Q To discuss their comments? A - We might--discuss it by phone, right. .Q Was that part of this relationship that we have been talking about between-your office and industry, in ordej to bring about a development of the specifications for the existing products? MR. MOHZR: Objection. SANDERS. GALE & RUSSELL Ccr'iri : n: vrc R jpwrr-.'r PRODUCED -83 MT-PWHD-016236 LO r r r 335 question ; L/. lO .iiLn.'i . uoj ectic MR- u2AM ELO: Objection, mr. coy:m : Objection. A :es. REDIRECT MR. LEVY: :o:i I have no other questions MR In view of sorqc of your answers to Mr. Levy, Mr, 1, 'i'U1 i dan -- --_____ MR. LEVY Can I just stop you for a moment? a nave one more Question. rtUT i_\D ^ L* T.TwTfTX5 rw'-i^ir'\JC'C' -Ayn i'rl*uT. > TAA ^j. 1T f'V t av rtp T II v *I : 3 I meant to ask this, but I forgot: . ` Mr. Murad, is there any specification that you have ever been involved in drafting, dealing with the asbestos area, asbestos insulation area, which contained a provision saying that 'warnings 'were not required or should not be included on any of the packages or any of the products? iTJi Obj ecticn. Objection. SANDERS. GALE a RUSSELL C c r * i!: ' ^ -,v ov \ c U r: . r > PRODUCED JM - 83 MT-PWHD-016237 r- r r I CO ' MR. JE1LE7: May I have the question read, please. . (The pending question was read.) MR. DeAHGEIC: Object to the form. MR. SCHWARTZ: Objection. MR. HOHTSTREAM: Objection. A Ho, not that I recall. There was no -- that ' ^ wasn't addressed in the specification. 0 The government never prohibited the manufacturer from putting a health v/arning on any of their products; is that right? ' . MR. KENHY: Objected to. ' MR. M0HT5TREA M: Objection. MR. SCHWARTZ: Objection. o L *rtn iiijljiii Gbj ection. MRV DeAMGELO: Obj ection. MR. STAHGER: Objection. MR. MOKER: Objection. . MR. CHRISTIE: Objection. ' MR. COYHE: Obj ection. "i'jiCfT) fwAvj* rLj -- . * O , Obj ection. in' t -- the sp ecifications did not prohibit SANPERS. GALE & RUSSELL C rt ; * "s*' : p : ^ *: rt = 0 MT-PWHD-016238 r r r SO l anyone, any supplier, fro.r. putting any kind of warning on it. ' MR. LEVY: Thank you. I have no other * questions. . MR. UGV/IMSKI: Off the record. ' (Discussion off the record) (A recess was taken from 2:50 p.m. until . 3 : 0 5 p ) MR. nCLTMOKI: I have no auesticr.s at this REDIRI t ime. EXAMIMATICL Q Mr. Murad, in vie:-/ of some of your answers to Mr n Levy, perhaps we'd better go over again what it 'was that your responsibilities '.`rare whan you v/ere in the coatings unit from 1959 to 1972 with respect to specifications. were your duties? ' what A To keep them maintained in such a way as to provide the best materials that the government could use in the shipbuilding process. - Q '.7hen you say "the best materials that the government could use," what do you mean by that? A I mean the most -- the optimum materials that SENDERS. GALE a RUS3ELL Ccrufi-.-i: - c- v r o !W-- PRODUCED -83 MT-PWHD-016239 n. r n -> *5 0 ;ere attainable that were available fro.TM industry at Q '..'hen you are - talking about the best or the optimum materials, fere there criteria that you were using that . permitted you to determihe what the best or optimum materials . ` * might be? t .i .j | A The criteria came mostly from industry, from what j ' '. ' j the manufacturers said was available. . Q Do I understand that you did not have any ; :! i ' objectives in mind as to -what you were looking for in a ! ; oarticular material? . :n. TV : dejection. > A wo, of course not. The -- as far as insulation is concerned, it had the job of reducing the heat flew from : one item to another -- from one point to another, and certain ' materials could be used for high temperatures and others could not. Certainly you" could not use a flammable material for a high-temoerature application. - temperatures into account; you Tou had to had to take take the . the outside environment into account; you had to take into account the i i j i stresses and strains of shipboard use, the availability, ' the quality and cost. . j ! ! Q Cost was a . sc . or; w asn ^ SANDERS. GALE & RUSSELL Ccrtiitx-* 'h':- - *vp - f'fc rrc" PRODUCED JM - 83 MT-PWHD-016240 r r 339 A Well, in an overall way. You couldn't expect to practically make use of exotic, let's say, insulation materials on a large scale, the type of thing that WASA might use, for example, for a short -- for very limited applications that were not practical for use on board ship. Q Who did the balancing that was required in order to balance or trade off things like cost or durability or ' things of that sort against other factors that yon night be looking3 for? . t MR. LEVY: Objection. ` : MR. HOWD: Objection. ' MR. NOWIMSKI: You nay answer, if you know. A I don't know if I know the answer to that. Q Let me try it another way. You said in answer to ny last question that price was obviously a factor, that you could not afford to take the most exotic and expensive material for certain purposes; is that correct? . A Q If price was a factor that had to be considered, j who was the person or who were the people that did the j considerati , ^ - ~i q} * v >" --, ,* -* -> -- i \ rj c at is n ?-r **'* * *"* * SANDERS. GALE a RU53ELL C ! ':;-r!vr: ?, f'.-nrtcr, MT-PWHD-016241 C'- r r" 3H0 Ob j ection. k A V/ell, I con' t know. You can answer, if you know.. I really don't know the answer to that. .. The specifications were already there. They were -- had been issued and were widely dispersed when I started my tenure in that job. It was obvious that, , certainly, these specifications were called out in the standard 769. If we wars to come up -with a new specifica- ' tion and that specification had described an item that was extremely expensive, it would not be cited in the -- either the standard or the follow-on specification -- ship's specifications, because of the price. Q In other words, what you are saying -- : I A So, in that regard, price was taken into account. But we didn't stop to price out every insulation material , when writing a specification or when making changes to a ' specification. It was only -- price and cost of the j ! ; insulation was only a factor if it became obvious that it was ; an exorbitant price, way -- magnitudes of order greater . than the going price range of the commonly-found insulation : I materials. . SANDERS. GALE & RUSSELL V -'tv po Ror-'n-.T- PRODUCED JM - 83 MT-PWHD-016242 r- r n 3*1 Q One of the other examples of factors that you gave in earlier testimony had to do with the durability of an insulating product, and I think you talked -- A. Right. . . Q -- of the possibility of the breaking off. /.'as ; there a word that you used for that? V,ras it friability that ' you -- ; Yes, that's right. Q Tdas it you who rr.aue decisions as to how rr.ucn possibility of friability you were 'willing to accept in a specification in order to reduce the amount of asbestos, or was it someone else that made that decision? . - A he carried cut the -- maintained the characteris tics that were already described in the specifications unless we had some information from industry citing improved characteristics. - Q When you got around to proposing a change in a specification and had written up that change or proposed change, you said that you circulated It to various people in the llavy . Is that correct? A Yes. 0 You rot comments back frcmthem; is that correct? SANDERS. GALE & RUSSELL C R --rrcr = JM -83 MT-PWHD-016243 r r n 3^2 We might. We might simply get an agreement from them. ' By that I mean they would say tr.ey cor.currea. *3 But vou did at some tines get disagreement; is 1t- iVl, - i>-- - -o--iVl, - Yes . Q What kinds of disagreement did you get? A They varied. I can't really be specific unless you -- unless you first spoke of a specific specification and then let me look at the fils on it. But, if a change o: a proposed change appeared to create a problem for one of the other Ilavai offices, then we would have to sit down and uscuss tne change and determine 'whether there was-, in fact. a problem created or not, and, if there v/ere a ' >W fsr-l created, then we'd have to either drop that proposed change or amend it such that it alleviated the problem. Q- But you"cannot recall at the moment any specific example of disagreement by one or another of the offices within the Wavy Department? A That's correct. -- Q I think that you said that the ultimate step in the process of either preparing a new specification or urn o. -o. p -f * A 3 v) r* p. * . f ~ p ha w* ~ ^ ~^ * PRODUCED JM - 83 MT-PWHD-016244 r r n 3-43 cr proposed change before a board of reviev;. is that cor-- r e 91 ? peci f"lo' at ion "Revi`ev: Board 2 S . ' ' Q Did the Specification Revi that you were in the coatings unit inc types as well as civilians? could. Most, of the necole on evae v; board were civilians. I don't recall a specific military man being on ;cara. Q During the three years that you had experience with the -- what is the name of the board again? A Specification Review Board. Q -- that you had experience with the Specification Reviev: Board, did you ever get turned down on a change or a spec that you proposed? Yes, I think I did. And a change or a new ated until it had been app Board; is that cor r e c t ? That's correct. You mentioned in answer to one of !-l questions just now, when we were talking about price as a SANDERS. GALE a RUSSELL PRODUCED JM - S3 MT-PWHD-016245 rr *\ 3^4 factor in drawing up specifications, that, if there was some thing about a specificaticn that caused it to call for . material that was too expensive, it would not either get listed in a standard or get into the specifications for a particular ship. Is that correct? A Right. MR. LEVY: Objection. A (Continuing) But let me say that that's my opinion. I wanted to come bach to each of these things. understand that when somebody, engaged by the Mavy, designs a ship, the plans and specificcaattiioonns fc r the ship specify material meeting particular m4.;.l ilita: j specificat ions for particular places? Is that correct? - MR. LEVY: Objection. A Yes. Q Sc that it isn't until somebody calls for the use of material meeting.a particular specification on a set of plans and specs that that material gets used; is it? MR. LEVY: Objection. A Chat's right. SANDERS. GALE a RUSSELL Cer'tfi. n vro Rtr.^-.*:cr> JM MT-PWHD-016246 r r r- 3^5 - Q The. decision as to what military or federal specs rill be referenced on the plans and specifications for a jarticular shio is made by someone in the Navy; is ;nam cor rect ? Could you repeat that, please? ,es . MR. I think it did not come out cuite right. (The pending cuestion was read.) MR. ;Y: .id come cut right. A '.veil, it is made by the design agent. Q It i.s made by she design -- .. A The design agent. '' Q That Is either someone in the Navy Department or someone engaged by the Navy; is that correct? A- Yes. " MR. JELLEY: I have no further questions. RECROc AV A* h ri -'L'* *Ar .1 r1p. 'iTof't/?iT1 BY MR. MONTSTREAM: .! Q Mr. Murad, what, in your view, is the definition j of loose bound asbestos? : v*. uuo^e ..o-.ru 2u.joo. --o .;.e, ^^ SAWDERS. GALE & RUSSELL Cirri:: . . ' ter ..;y pc . k ru-r- PRODUCED J MT-PWHD-016247 C'r r material the _ the asbestos fibers are only loosely held. Q In viewing the government specifications, year background is as a chemist; is that correct? A That's my training, yes. . Q in government ourcr.ases oi sometninm line acid, would the governm-nt specification require that ;o be labeled as corrosive' i haven't seer* tne scec on suit uric aciu. Have you seen the specification on any corrosive ua.iu 3 . A I can't recall of any that I've actually seen the . spec on, studied the spec for. Q Are you av;are of whether such a government ! i j specification would require the labeling of a container or package as corrosive? j A '.veil, I'd have to look at it. I haven't seen . the spec, so I'd be just speculating, really. ' ! I j Q Tould your ansvrer be the same as to a'military . specificat ion for a corrosive? * -. _ A Here again, unless I worked on the spec, I would , j ! iI _t v.'ouid ce just a guess on my part SANDERS. GALE & RUSSELL ,Ccrt.:ic.: ' vrt; L~ r: r< roouceo MT-PWHD-016248 VO r r r p-1 q '/here a produce is f iarr.able , would the government specification require a label that it is flammable A r- -* unless X saw the mater i. 3.-L y c u 're calking 1 t wc r k e cl w i th that kind of spec TI,, trying to think 1 7* -- there has been one in which - - you are getting at, I believe, the packaging portion of the spec, and I an trying to search rr.y memory if I recall if I vcrkea on a spec that :u: a -- a:jy special labeling. I can't think of one rimi v a>- Q '`/here a product vras explosive, would tne federal specification or military ' specifica-tien require a label that that is, in fact, an explosive? A Here again, it would be a speculation on my part tO aHoViSr. '' Q Have you seen any government specification or military specification which addressed the issue of labeling concerning contents of a cautionary nature? I don't know really don't know. ' I can think of one, a specific or.e, r igbt q V/hat department of the be involved wish the pure ha s e SANDERS. GALE a RUSSELL PRODUCED JM - 83 MT-PWHD-016249 r r .n concentrated form pursuant to a military specification? 'm not sure , W -- Cli.* j ficatic n for concentrated were one,. I would imagine would be in the Army Chem b s my guess . o Supposing it v;ere merely a government specifica tion for concentrated sulfuric acid. 'Chat department would be involved? , . A Here again, I don't know the answer to it. The best answer I can give, probably the Chemical Corps. 'Q If something were explosive, what department It would we look to for the military specification or government specification? A I don't know. - Q If it were flammable, what department of the government would we lock for either a government specification or military specification,to examine those specs? A I think there you'd have to address the specific material. Q Let's take an example.of gasoline. A I don't know the answer to it. I vainly SANDERS. GALE & RUSSELL C c r' i f! ' v! S*cn';v p c r- ' r * .* r > produced AM sn MT-PWHD-016250 C r n 3^9 not an expert in all of the various specifications that are put out by everybody in 'Washington and their field activities. MR idU u i S * Ru.hi. All r-, J *- T q ,ve nothing further. Thank you. BY MR. MCHSR: . ' ' ' Q Mr. Murad, again, my name is James Moher. I | j | i ! represent H. K. Porter and The Southern Asbestos Company. ' I just have one or two questions. j 'i In response to inquiry by Mr. Coyne, you testified- about a test that was conducted by K. K. Porter, and you indicated that, in your opinion, the results of that were not ' valid. Can you tell me when that test was done? ' A To the best of my recolle-ction, it was sometime . in the 1970 to 1971 time period. Q Can you tell me who conducted the test? ji j A - I was told that H. X. Porter -- I think it was an employee at H. X. Porter conducted the test, or it may have . been someone who was contracted to by Porter. ] ' Q Do you know wherethe test was done? . A Mo. ' : Il ii Q Do you know whatthe test consisted of, what kind of a test was done? SANDERS. GALE a RUSSELL C c r t; i: . '' o *. v p ? k j y. * r r y r > PRODUCED JM - 83 MT-PWHD-016251 n r' 350 A Well, the one, as I recall, the test, the material was a felt, asbestos felt, and it v:as one that was purported '' to be -- there were two materials, I think. One was a material that', was supposed to be stiffer, a stiffer asbestos felt. And the test consisted of -- as it v/as shov/n to me, consisted of dropping a metal rod on the material. Q Who told you about the test? A I think it v/as an H. K. Porter representative. Q You, then, wsi*e not at the test when it was conducted? " H U11 _ O . : Q a Anything you kr.ov/about is is secondhand? A That's true. Q You indicated that it dealt with a felt product? A Yes, right. - Q Were there any otherproducts involved? A There was another product that was another kind of loose bound felt, and that v/as supposed to.be tighter than its predecessor and was purported to be such that it didn't give off as many asbestos fibers into the surrounding atmosphere. .' Q Did Davy personas SANDERS. GALE & RUSSELL L'c::i:i. : ' c: r e K- : -r: produce JM - 83 MT-PWHD-016252 r 351 this test? ju Mot to my kr. owiedge, no. n You do net k r* q r v- V- o -0 u ir* 0 test was. -- . A Mb; no, sir. Q All you .know d^ V O LI ^L/ U J^ ^ that it may ha these t wo types of felt? A Rig ht. q ;t ny did you conclude that the results w valid, or on what basis did you conclude that? A V/ith the -- with regard to the felt that v:as a r* * is a -Cos no:~d felt but _ uro_ crteu to be more tightly bound than its predecessors--! simply looked a. t/ it and kicked it around a little bit, waved i around, dropped it on the table, a very simple act, and quite tV -t >- otr-'. <=* reit came out. Q Did you do any :sting with any type of -- A Instruments? Q -- Instruments? Mo. It was just my observation, visual cbservation. You have testified considerably about a California ;est you were involved in, and I am net going so ;:o into SANDERS, gale a RUSSELL Ctr'iM . ; p ; r` iso MT-PWHD-016253 r r r^ 352 it at great length. As I understand, the California test was an attempt by the United States i.'avy to determine . whether or not a substitute for asbestos could be used on board ship; i-s that correct? A Yes. ' ' Q As a result of that test, did you conclude that asbestos could not be substituted? ' A I, personally, didn't conclude that, no. By that time I was out of th^ job. But -- Q The results of the test, though, indicated that the substitution for asbestos did not work cut? A That's what I was told. Q To your knowledge today, is the United States navy still using asbestos on board ships? A I.don't know. . q- You had"referred in your earlier testimony to a letter which you had received from K. X. Porter. Can you tell me when you received that letter from K. X. Porter? A I don't know if I received it or the -h'avy received it. It had to do with procedures to be used wne.o working with asbestos specifically, or particularly, let's say, in the ripping out procedures. SANDERS. GALE a RUSSELL C e r;;1; c >: > - i< ;; . i r: : r PRODUCED JM - 83 MT-PWHD-016254 r r r 353 Q When did you receive that letter, or when did ' that letter cone to your attention? *A Well, I understood that it was --that formed part of the basis .for at least a portion of the instruction that , we had talked about earlier, the 5100.26. Q Do you know this, Mr. Murad, as a fact, or is : i ; ;his just something that you have concluded, nat uas. xe-wusr formea a basis o! tnat -- A Well, I concluded that. Q But you do not know of your own knowledge 'whether or not that letter influenced the drafting of the document referred to? A I don't know if I can give you a fair answer to that question. As I recall, the letter spoke to different procedures, various procedures that were suggested for use when ripping out asbestos. Q That is not my question, sir. My question is do you know of your own knowledge that that letter formed the basis for the standard that you referred to -- - A I don't know it as a fact, no. ' Q When did you first see this letter? PRODUCED JM - 83 MT-PWHD-016255 c r n 354 Q Do you know by 'whom it was designed? A Do. But you do know it cane from K. K. Porter? I-recall seeing the Porter letterhead, yes. Q Would this have been around the sane tine as test as taken or performed, the H. R. Porter test? MR. i;GV;i::SKI: By "this" you mean the date OV r_- of the letter? ' MR. MOHZ^R: Yes. 3. . I'm sorry. Let me 'withdraw that, ar.d I will rephrase it for you. Okay. Q 'das the letter dated cr did you see the letter on or aoout tne ane u;hat this test was done by H. K. Porter? A" I don't know. MR. MOKER: Thank you, Mr. Murad I have no other questions. MR. SCHWARTZ: Off the record.- (Discussion off the record) BY MR. C3YMB: Mr. r.uraa, . want to try ana cwear something PRODUCED JM - 83 MT-PWHD-016256 r f' r POP up that cans up yesterday and again today, when Mr. DeAngelo was questioning you, specifical1l1v v;ith regard to soe< w I'will shov; you r:r.: v;hat has been narked as ; '. . Exhibit 3 for ider.tificat ion. . i! You v/ere asked some questions : i about this, and I believe you indicated that, upon looking at ' this, grade triple A asbestos cloth contained 3 percent .; asbestos; is that correct? Is that what you said yesterday? A 'es , that's c^rred Q Is that your best recollection today, that it contained,at least in 1365, the date of this specification, 3 percent asbestos? A Yes, that's what it states here. MR. MOV.'IMEKI: Could the record indicate what page of that exhibit is ''here." MR. COYMZ: I'm sorry. The top of the right-hand column of page 1 is what the witness just referred to. ' Q 'Mould you look at the cover page and identify what that is, if you know. It appears to me to be corrections of typographical errors, if you will, contained SANDERS. GALE & RUSSELL PRODUCED JM - 83 MT-PWHD-016257 r in the specification. Would you agree with what? A Oh, yes. Yes, it does. )oes this change your testimony wv ith regard to triple A grade cloth? ' A Yes, it does. Yes, it does. Q What is the -- - A . This says or. page 1, paragraph 1.2.1, grade ' triple A delete S and substitute 95. ! Q Is this the first time that you have ever dealt : viith or even considered or locked at anything that had to do v/ith grade triple A asbestos cloth? , A Qh, I don't think so.. I probably dealt v/ith .. this before, but it's been a long tine. ' 1 ; Q As best you can recall today, at least v/ith your recollection refreshed, at least in 1965, it required that ; 1 ; it contain atleast 95 percentasbestos? . A Yes, that's v/hac the amendment says. ; I ! j i Q So your testimony yesterday and today with regard ! to the interchangeability, if you will, of 10 percent asbestos cloth with other cloths, asindicated in that , i ; specification, was income: SANDERS. SALE & RUSSELL Ccr : s' n r y ? c Acp-r:er PRODUCED JM - 83 MT-PWHD-016258 c n j^"'\ 0 ' --in view of that' A You are right. Q Thank you. . On those occasions, it there were any, where proposed specifications or mod ifications were sent to either NI"A or other manufacturers of asbestos products, isn't it true that the purpose of sending the specification to either MIMA or asbestos manufacturers was to determine the . practicality, practicability, of manufacturing a product to meet the specification? A That was one cf the purposes, yes. Q Wasn't that the sole purpose? A Well, I guess it depends on what your term "practicabilityrr is. We sent it to -- that's about right. 'We sent it to IIIMA to find out whether or not the specification and/or the change as written could in fact -- did in fact, rather, describe the material that was available from industry. Q Available, or one that could be manufactured? A One that could be manufactured in the quantities necessary and delivered so that we'd have it both for new construction and for modernisation and repair. SUNDERS. GALE & RUSSELL Ccmfic.: S;c> vp PRODUCED -63 MT-PWHD-016259 r r 358 MR. COYHE: I have no further questions. Thank you. k BY HR. SCHWARTZ: '' _ .. ' Q Mr. Murad, an I correct in my understanding of your testimony that, to the extent that there may have been specifications involving labeling, you did not get involved with them? A I can't recall one at this point. .Q You have no knowledge today of any, one way or the other? A Right. I don't recall any dealing with insulation products that had that kind of provision'. Q But you, yourself, did not get involved with ar.y specifications, as such, that dealt v/ith labeling? A I don't recall any. . Q You testified concerning ASTM. ASTM stands for the Aner ican Society for Testing A Testing & Mat erials. rv With respect to that included representedives from na. A Yes . -- ana aiso iron overnnent ? SANDERS. GALE S RUSSELL L'cr;'.:V: : r: _ r, produced IM - S3 MT-PWHD-016260 r AD: A Yes. Q k A And consultants? ' They could belong, sure, I'm. sure^ . Q And representatives from universities an; colleges and academia? A That's co: Q And the specifications -- and drawing your* attention to Exhibits 2, 3 sad 4,. which refer to the A.STM -- the purpose of the reference was to set forth means of testing products; isn't that correct? A Yes. There's a -- normally, at least quite often, in a specificasion, there's a section that adores; the testing of the material described. 0 3ut my specifi question was that the reierer.ee in those exhibits and in specifications to A STM-was to set forth the method of testing or a method of testing -- A Yes. Q -- and it was not the purpose of the reference to specify a particular material or component. The purpose, as set forth in those specifications, 'was the method of testing; isn't that correct? l-u . - : fojecticn. SANDERS. GALE i RUSSELL C ' - -:r r *- . a* !I - hJ MT-PWHD-016261 rr - e p , o tic MR. SCHW.AR71 Tr.anx you. nave no : further questions. sY MR. DeAMCZLO: Q I j ust have two questions for you, Mr. Murad On that California task, that i. i -U p where the used non asbestos-containing products, do you know the nar.es of any individuals who would be able to tell us more about that experiment or whateve* r it was? A1 Winer may be able to. It was a part of the PR oro,1 so t . .MR. NO'.vIi.'SXI: What is the pending ques tion? MR. XSMWY: Is there anybody who assisted in the California test. . MR. MOWIMSKI: Could I have the pending question read back. (The last question was read.) (Continuing) Joe Morelli was a cerscn on the PR 'What is PR orojecl pro j b. 5 a '..or' iC P --r*--r.wi ry SANDERS. GALE a RUSSELL C c r f.;? i : " * u r t v p; [< u <> r ? c r PRODUCED MT-PWHD-016262 O) r r r ir 1 part of the- development of the FFG series of ships. Q Dc you know what products were used in that experiment on the California ship? A It was Eagle richer's 'high-temperature insulating material, essentially a rock wool insulation. Q What kind of insulation? A Rock wool, or a mineral wool. They are similar. It Is either rock wool or a mineral wool material. Q Do'you know what applications this non asbestos- containing product was used for on the ship? A High-temperature piping. .T in. ru-e\_.*-.'hTu^TSTTiLuk"\ .: further questions. Tnanx you. t-' _ nave no MR. TEDFORD: I just have one question. BY l!R. TEDFORD: Q - In res you a MIL spec 1-2 MR. NGWIHSKI: 2731D. --- 273ID. Would you just look at that, please. MR. NQWIH2KI: Is this the same document Mr. Levy used? ' . w1 -- or.s nw..e oc_...^ 0.. SANCZRS. GALE a RUSSELL PJRMOD MT-PWHD-016263 f'- n 362 V/e can dig through his, but for my purposes that would be satisfactory. If anyone else has an objection, we can get the original. 1 J < tkajHi 1 i 1O Ufc*ci*/ .lid* i.vU Ui identification? MR. TEDFORD: No, and I do not intend to nark it for the purpose of the question. . MR. LEVY: I think he should get the other one. There ^s no difference, 'out to avoid any confusion. MR. NOV/INEKI: Off the record. (Discussion off the record) MR. TEDFORD: Let's have that one narked. If I can get a copy. MR. NO MINSK! : I will try to get a copy for you by tomorrow. MR. TEDFORD: V/e will have that marked as the next defense exhibit. | (Copy of MIL 1-273ID, dated 13 June 1963, : consisting of 10 pages, was marked Defendants' (Murad) Exhibit 13 for identification, as of this i i| 1 dat e.) MT-PWHD-016264 r. r r 363 BY MR. BEDFORD: Q Mr. Murad, you testified that this was a *' ' performance specification, as opposed to a composition specification; is that correct? Right. Q You indicated that specifications were used to describe existing products; is that correct? A Yes . Q You also testified that , with respect to this particular specification, asbestos and/or nonasbestos products could be used; is that correct? A That's correct. '' Q Would you tell me which nor.asbesto.s products were in existence at that time which would fit that specification, if you know of-any? . A The only ones I know of are a mixture of calcium silicate and fiberglass and perhaps -- I don't know this as a fact, but perhaps one of those mineral wools or rock wool. Q Were these products used by the government for insulating high-temperature pipe? ' A By the government? - Q By the Wavy. SANDERS. GALE 3 RUSSELL C or-; *: . . " rv~ : & ...: r: produced M* 83 MT-PWHD-016265 c r n jn^e`tt 3y the Navy. On shipboard? Q ;es A :.fe usea asbestcs-contalnung aa^eriaiS at unas t ime. ' . ' Q Why did you notuse either of the other two? A Me were told that the others were too friable, they -would break and they -would not hold up to the rigors of shipboard use. Q Who told you that? A People in shipyards and also manufacturers. Q 'Which manufacturers? " A I don't knew if I can specify the exact ones, out there are a couple of them. Several of them mentioned the same-thing, that only asbestos-containing materials had the strength and the -- well, say the durability to withstand the rigors of shipboard use. Q That specification, the product that you -were to use that specification for, -was for shipboard use; is that :orrec t Yes . rnrr^CnRD : I have no lurt.oer questions have no other quust-ons SANDERS. GALE 5 RUSSELL Cvrt:i- r>- kcc-.fvt PRODUCED JM - 83 MT-PWHD-016266 r n n V* J r>i . *iw./I..OiU : 0$ 1 11 I ^ a. ^ 3 believe you testified earlier during * your deposition with respect to MIL standard 109, which has been marked as General Dynamics (Murad) Exhibit 5 -- A Yes. 0 -- that this standard contained provisions r.g installation procedures for insulation materials; is that correct? A Yes, tnat's correct. Q 'Youla you please rev-lev; the document for me and identify those parts of the standard which contain such provisions? I don't intend to have you read them-. Just simply identify where they are contained in the document. A On page 10, paragraph 6, and there are severa subparagraphs under 6. It goes on to page 11 and 12, and top part of 13 discusses various installation procedures for all different types of insulation, hot surface, antisweat, refrigeration. I could go on, but that type of thing. It goes into the -- a very brief description under each one, of how you install the material. Q Are these the installation procedures which you testified earlier were contained ir. MIL stanuard 7c9? SANDERS. GALE S RUSSELL Ccrri:: ':;r"-vr Kt;r:er> produced -83 MT-PWHD-016267 r :r 36c A Yes. 0 Mr. Murad, do you know the responsibility of the Supervisor of Shipbuilding, Conversion 4 Repair, Groton, Connecticut? ' MR. KEIIIIY: That is objected to -- MR. JZ11EY: I object. MR. KZMMY: -- as being outside the knowl edge of this witness. MR. MOV;I! The question is whether he MR. KEMMY is outside.the knowledge. Mould vou read the auestio: back, (The pending question was read.) iviIR. MO HER: I will also object 5Y MR. MCV/INSXI: - Q I an looking for a yes or no answer, Mr. Murad. I have an understanding, but I don't know as a 'act. Q V/hat id your understanding based on? A, V/ell, ny understanding is -- - vjejected to SANDERS. GALE 4 RUSSELL C-.t: ^ K.r rror. produced JUS- 83 MT-PWHD-016268 r r r' JO / A --that he protects the interests of the govern ment -- *q - No. What is your understanding based on? : A My understanding based on? Experience in the / Navy, just in the -- in every capacity in the Navy. I . worked there almost -- well, over thirteen years, and -- ; I i : Q In what capacity during your service in the Navy : did the you acouire any understanding of the responsibility of *- ' Supervisor of Shipbuilding, Conversion 1 Repair, Groton, '. Connecticut? A At Grot or. specifically? Well, at all the ; ! I I li ` SUFSHIrS, including Groton, during the time when I was involved in insulation and later when I was involved in de- 1 sign services branch for WAVSHIPS, later NAVSEA. . : i Q What is your understanding of that responsibility? . A- Based on that, my understanding of the ; responsibility of the Supervisor of Shipbuilding is to pro- : tect the Navy's Interest and make sure that the Navy Is ; getting the kind of ship that has been contracted for from : the contractor during the acquisition process. That's it. j i ' ,-.n. . wi* S I * O SANDERS. GALE a RUSSELL Lcrti?.-: c*'c.r rv K:-::wr PRODUCED -83 MT-PWHD-016269 r -r 363 3Y MR. KEIINY: ,' 0 Sir, v/hat is your understending as to the -safety of* personnel on a private shipyard where S'JPSHIPS is located? . . MR. NOMIMSXI: 'Do not answer that. Mould you read the question back. - MR. KENNY: 1 an going for sanctions on ; ! j ii : this one. _' (The pending question was read.) ' '1 i ! ' '' Q Where there i^ an office of S'JPSHIPS there. i MR. question. UCV/IN3KI: . Ido not understand the ' : I | Q Do you understand it, Mr. Murad? If you under stand it, that is the only issue. j THE WITNESS: tine? Would you read that one more ; i I - MR. LEVY: I will object to the question. (The pending question was againread.) j MR. NGWIN3KI: I'an not going to let him j answer the question. I haven't the slightest idea what it means. i MR. KENNY: I asked the gentleman whether -- D Do you understand the question, sir? You, not SANCERS. GALE & RUSSELL C'.-rt;f. .vcr-'.rv:-': it c: PRODUCED JM - S3 MT-PWHD-016270 r. r 3Co. s''> gent i. eman sitt ing to your left. n. Z have rr.v interpre tat ion o f it, yes. Q Will you te--i. us w hat your understanding is. MR. Lu'/Y: C f t he q uestion? THE W u. i - luOO . Shall I answer the question? MR . vir*?w Ro. BY MR. KERRY: Q What your understanding -- can you answer the question, sir? *:n *--* w*\. MR. RxMi'i Y: Yes , you are What ? : MR. ROWIRSKI: The question is ashing for his understanding of the safety of personnel at : i Electric Ecat? MR. KERRY: 'Whether he has an understanding as to the responsibility of SUPSKIPS toward ; personnel in a private contract shipyard where : SUFSHIPS maintains an of. yes MR. R0UIR5KI: . You are asking him for a .egaj. ccncuus :or.: SANDS? GALE a RUSSELL C\ r-.N : ;> .t PRODUCED JM-83 MT-PWHD-016271 r r~ 370 MR . .If : Mo, I an net. MR. MOMINSNI: Responsibility -- MR. KENM 7 : You r ave been as^-n standings as t c the responsi biiit IPS, and nov; I am t aking it down r.s to the eart h by K -- p-t- g-i- private contract yard. T.C" it dc MR. NOMIMSXI: I am sorry, Joe, I think you are asking him for a legal conclusion which goes to the ultimate, issue in tnis _awsuit, and, without laying a foundation to make his opinion or understanding on that issue at ail relevant or material, I 'would not let him answer it. MR. KENNY: Again I call your attention, Mr. Nowinski, that all objections except as to form are reserved for the time of trial. You have handcuffed this deposition for a day and a half, running on to t'wo days. If you refuse to let me go through with this, I can assure you that as soon as I get back to Hartford I am going to see Judge Elumenfeld and see whether or not v:e can bring Mr. Murad up to Hartford,with SANDERS. GALE & RUSSELL CcrtiM.o >:enotv?e -::cr' PRODUCED "JM -83 MT-PWHD-016272 n 371 the' appropriate sanctions and admonitions to do ' better the next time, Mr. Mowir.ski. Mow may I continue? You actually refuse to let him answer this MR. NO'.vIMSXI: Question? * The question you just j | posed, I yes, I do. .j mI'UT3t X 'i i i i ^ m i* l l Qcr*n^f , -1 n Let me ask yo'* this, sir: Do you have an understanding, Mr. Murad, as to van at the respon sibiiity of SUPSIIIPS is in a given situation where th sy are located at a private contract yard in regard to the p r0b 2. sn of personnel safety, of the personnel workin at that yard? Yes or no? MR. U OV.'IMDKY: You may ask him that ques t io n and he may answer it. MR. LEVY: The government or private yard personnel, or both? MR. KEMMY: I am asking generally, both. MR. MCV/IMSKI: Wait a minute. Objection. Compound. MR. KEMMY: jet's not be teaming up ht SANDERS. GALE & RUSSELL Cr d y p< fI r: e r PRODUCED JM - 03 MT-PWHD-016273 c n 372 I mean, you said he could answer the question. May he answer this question? MR. RGV'IRSXI: You just changed the ques tion. ' MR. KERRY: No, I did not change it. MR. SCI-EvARTZ: Can I have the question read back, please? MR. KERRY: He asked for a clarification, I merely asked* him -- the a uestion stands. You said he could answer the question. . May. he answer the auestion? Could he write it cr. the :all? R. KOKIKSX] "he question is whether he has an understanding of the legal responsibility of the Supervisor of Shipbuilding for employees of an Independent contractor as the Electric Boat shipyard, Groton, Connecticut. MR. KERRY: May the question be read, please? ' (The pending question was read.) MR. NOV.'IKSXI: You may answer yes or no. A An understanding of it? I have a feeling about SANDERS. GALE * RUSSELL Cvrtifii J 7,o:!,.,vrc itcr^rter. produced MT-PWHD-016274 r r 373 It , but -- Q All you have to say is yes or no. If you have a gut feeling about it, ansvier in the affirmative, sir. . MR. NQUIhSHI: 'ha it a minute. ! ho. Do you want the question read back again? THE UIThESS: Yes, I think I'd better. I think I'm thoroughly confused right now. (The question referred to -was again read.) A I think I'll say no. Q You realize you are no longer with the havy? A ho, I know that. I'm trying to give a fair answer for everything; I really am. ' Q Let me ask you, Mr. Murad: Are you familiar with the fact that SUPSHIPS does maintain offices whe: here are private contract yards? H Yes. Q You have described the responsibility of SUPSHIPS , already -- A ` Right. q . response to Mr. h'cwinski1's question. Dees have any responsibility whatsoever to the 1: practice s Cc^ng cameu Oil -.T; l'*1 -- V cl 1 c .^ SANDERS. GALE a RUSSELL Certified v ; A r " r r t r. CED JM - 83 MT-PWHD-016275 r r 0I^ yard on Navy work? Objection to the Torn of ;he Question `TV Oo.i ectoon, Q You can answer it, sir. MR. NGV.'INSKI: Excuse me, Joe, I have a question about - A I would -- MR. NOV/INSEI: Excuse me, Mr. Murad. THE WITNESS: Surely. . ' MR. NQMINSKI: Responsibility t.o his n' superiors? ' MR. KENNY: Yes, SUPSHIP. MR. NOV/INSKI: You nay answer. A' (Continuing) My understanding of that -would be, yes, that they do have a responsibility, Q What do you understand that they do have in the way of responsibility? A Well, *" rx f- * c I get into this fuzzy are; that I don't know the 3ce~*J"*'' ' /-v s of. .n otr.er words, it Is net w SAUCERS. GALE a RUSSELL Cert;:;. >*. v cm .: v r c K : r: t* r > MT-PWHD-016276 n n 375 ;hat you have teen testifying to here for the last couple oJ days? : A That's correct. . Q Do you knew what particular agency would be able , i to tell us that, other than the Superintendent of Ships? ; '| A Well, I was going to suggest 5UPSHIPS or code 07. ; Q And code 07 is? ,,; A Is the shipyard resources. I say shipyard j resources; I'm not sure i that's theexact title, butthey have authority over all the shipyards and over all the . Supervisors of Shipbuilding. i Q Sir, let m.e ask you: Has it been your experience v/hile you were in the Navy and also while you have been a : civilian employee for the navy that, wh.en ccm.rn.uni cat ions are issued, going out from, whatever central headquarters there i i ' nay be that is sending it out, whether it is BUMED or Naval .i Operations -- do the communications, from your experience, go . to all the various different types of divisions of the Navy, j '' . . 1I Including SUPSHIPS? ~ ! fI HR. NCV/IN3XI: ' Excuse me, Joe, I think you ! i have m.ischaracterized his experience In the Navy. ; I do not think he nas had any except as a civilian SANDERS. GALE a RUSSELL Ci---r produced* - 83 MT-PWHD-016277 r. r n iio employee of the Navy. MR. KENNY: Excuse me, then. I thought that -- ... ' THE WITNESS: ' That's true. A I've only been -- Q In your experience as a civilian employee in the navy -A C Right. . -- grafting i* on to that last question.. i A Okay. ': .i No, the distribution of documents goes to those organizations that the drafter feels has a need to have it, need to knowit. Q What about directives pertaining to safety, I j safety practices, work practices, safety rules, 'in general, : without regard to asbestos? " MR. NOV/IN SKI: 'What is the question? MR. KENNY: As to whether he -- ' BY MR. KENNY: ; ! i i ,j Q Going again, do you recall the last two questions? A :s . Rephrasing It again, in your experience during SANDERS. GALE b Rt'SSELL ....... r r' Jr produced IBM MT-PWHD-016278 r n n 377 your fourteen or fifteen-odd years as a civilian employee in the Navy, what has been your experience with regard to ft ' directives that go out from any particular arm of the Navy, ' ' say in relation to safety as such, in Navy yards, in regard ; to whether SUPSKIPS gets notice of it? j .j A Usually, SUPSKIPS would get a notice of that, at i least as an information copy. I Q Have you had any relationship or association with ' orivate contract yards where SUPSKIPS has been located,in your *4 fifteen years with the Navy? A A little over thirteen years, almost fourteen : i ' years. But, yes, there has been a little. ' ; Q It has not related to asbestos, I gather, in view ; I of your earlier testimony; has it? Or has it? A - Well, there has been a little from one SUPSKIF -- ; Q Could you tell, us v/hat that consisted of? . A Newport News had asked some questions about ; i ; asbestos-containing materials. -j Q Could you approximate the time of the inquiry? j A Oh, I think it was sometime in 1971, I believe. : ^ /.as unat time ctr.cc. PRODUCED J1 * 83 MT-PWHD-016279 r r 373 it - Q Do.you recall the nature of the inquiry? A The ilewDort News Shipbuilding was wondering wha kind of high-temperature insulation they should use, in view of the fact that it appeared to them as if asbestos would become a problem. Q Hovi" did you become aware of this communication? Could you tell us the mechanics as to how you -- A V/e got it through the type desk at NAVSHIPS. Q In other words, the inquiry first went to NATS HI P.S and then to you, or what ? A I'm not sure if they went -- came to us and we -- I knovr that MAVSHIFS was involved, certainly. . Q 'was a response prepared and sent out? A No, there was a meeting held -- there was a meeting held at NAVSHIPS, and there were representatives of Newport'News there, and they asked again the question of what should they do. They felt -- the people at .Newport News felt that they -- uncertain what materials they should use if they were not to use asbestos. ' Q .Nr. Murad, in regard to Newport News, this incident you related, the first inquiry was a result of a letter, 'was it? SANDERS. GALE a RUSSELL Cert::;..: A * c :* c t vre i\ i" t: sr - PRODUCED MT-PWHD-016280 ir- 379 s No, thi s v/as -- 3 Or was it ? ri It was all oral n, vy, It was all oral * Right, t o my kn V/as it reduc ed Not that I recall, no. '.7hat was the ultimate result of this meeting? it advice was given, in ether won A Not much advice was given. 'we simply stated that they had to abide by the -- 'whatever specificasions were avallab1e. ' MR.*KENNY: Thank you. I have no further inquiry. 5Y MR. NC'./IMSNI : ' Q Mr. Murad, Mr. Kenny asked you a'couc the distribution of .Navy instructions and directives relating to safety and health and, in particular, the distribution to SUPSKIPS. Do you recall those questions? A Yes. . Q Do the u'/y instructions and u.r.c ^ ..ri*..; j o u SANDERS. GALE a RUSSELL PRODUCED JM - 83 MT-PWHD-016281 r r 3cQ referred to in ansv/erir.g those questions relat to the safety and health of Naval uniformed and civilian personnel? * A ' That's who they are primarily directed towards, yes MR. JELLZY: May I have that question read back. (The last question was'read, BY MR. NOWINSKI: . Q Mr. Murad, do ^ou knew of any Navy instruction ' or directive related to the safety and health of employees of independent contractors of the Navy? \ MR. KENNY: That is objected to-, because again you are talking about asking somebody for a real legal conclusion. I mean, certainly, if an : .- i instruction goes out to SUPSHIP3, Mr. Nowinski, ' and it is at a private contract yard, it i certainly, I could think, could well be argued ; .i that itis intended foreveryemployee in that ; ! yard if it relates to safety. .`. MR. NOWINSKI: Mr. Kenny -- j i ! I MR. KENNY: Certainly there isn't a wall : around Groton. - SANDERS. GALE & RUSSELL CcrriM'-M [ PRODUCED JM - 83 MT-PWHD-016282 rn 3aQ 1 BY MR. MOV/IIISKI: Q * Can you answer the question, Mr. Murad?' THE V.TTHESS: -. May it be -- can you reread ' that? . Q I can restate it for you. Do you know if any Havy instruction or directive related to the safety and health of employees of independent contractors at shipyards? A 'Jo, I don't. 1 . MR. HOV/INSKI: I have no further questions. (Discussion off the record) (Tine noted: d;15 o'clock p.m.)- Sworn to and subscribed before me this _______ day of _1979 - ------------------------------ :------------------------------- ------- . HEMRY GoOnGE Mt'dRAD . - . ' ' ! iI j | t i j i ! SANDERS. GALE a RUSSELL Ccrr;f* . m >: wrr-y r c i<. dcr JM -83 MT-PWHD-016283 r r r- 382 I ND EX i ;' i tnl'tZj Henry George Murad vi"- defendants ' (MURAD) FOR IDENTIFI n r ; V/ITNESS EXAMINATION BY Mr.' Hov/d (cont'd) Mr. Schwartz Mr. DeAngelo ' Mr. Tedford Mr. Levy Mr. Jeliey Mr. Mont s or ear. Mr. Meher Mr. Coyne Mr. Nowinski ` Mr.'Kenny EXHIBITS ' , ,1 - PAGE ' ; 197 I I 244 ! 358 : 281 - = 360 j i . 2$5 !. 361 ; . - 298 337 , .345 j ; ; f ! *3' 4 1 ;i 354 i ' | 365 : ! 7?l7Q* ;: fr O-> O/" oC f !)1 ! :: PAGE | 1. j 11 Copy of doou.T.er.t on the ietterh e a d o f 1 a part r.e n t of I.'avy , .Naval Ship Engineering Center, ! S-^ERS. SALE o 3U5EELL .. JM - 8i PRODUCED ' uAm MT-PWHD-016284 AI ID ha Or / * * r --} \ T5 (co:IT ' D ) 333 11 (Cont * a) -O Philadelphia Division., to CwensCorning Fiberglas Corporation, date-stamped 5 May 1969 and May 11, 1963, consisting of 3 cages Copy of document on r~\ i 4 ;er- 'head of Deoartr.ent of Uaval Engineering Cente: Philadelphia Division, co General Dynamo i , errorat ion, .ric ;ion, dated 3C Acri! -i-i? o y " '' ~ 2 cares ^ ocy o *. l. June 1963 pages I-27ei2, dated 13 consisting of 10 0O0 C i 0 271 562 SANDERS. GALE & RUSSELL Ccrtific-! s:c:*. ty r c R y>r: cr? PRODUCED JM * 83 MT-PWHD-016285 MT-PWHD-016286 (j/ds- UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT WESTERN DISTRICT OF WASHINGTON HUGH TEFFT, et al.. Plaintiffs, -vsJOHNS-MANVILLE, et al.. Defendants CA NOS. C84-154M C84-166M C84-165M ------------x UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT DISTRICT OF MAINE x ALL MAINE ASBESTOS LITIGATION : NO DOCKET : NUMBER x Crystal City, Virginia Tuesday, April 3, 1984 Deposition of HENRY G. MURAD called for examination by coxmsel for the defendants. Reported by Nancy Siegel-Deutsch Ron Johnson Reporters VERBATIM STENOTYPE REPORTING P.O. BO* AOS FAIRFAX. VIRGINIA 22030 PHONES: (703) 273-9367. 691-0*80 MT-PWHD-016287 2 X pursuant to notice, taken at the Marriott Crystal Gateway 2 Hotel, 1999 Jefferson Davis Highway, Crystal City, 3 Virginia, commencing at 2:15 o'clock, p.m., before 4 Haney Siegel-Deutsch, a Registered Professional 5 Reporter and Notary Public for the State of Virginia 6 at Large, when were present on behalf of the respective 7 parties: 8 For Pittsburg Corning: 9 RICHARD S. FELDMAN, ESQ. Of: Rivkin, Leff, Sherman and Radler 10 100 Garden City Plaza Garden City, Hew York 11530 11 For Portsmouth Naval Shipyard: 12 WILLIAM MULVEY, JR., ESQ. 13 Of: Mulvey, Noucas t Sullivan 378 Islington Street 14 Portsmouth, New Hampshire 03801 15 For GAP Corporation: 16 PAUL A. ZEVNIK, ESQ. Ofi Paul, Hastings, Janofsky ft Walker 17 1050 Thomas Jefferson Street, Northwest Washington, D. C. 20007 18 For Eagle-Pitcher: 19 DEIDRE D. K. WEISS, ESQ. 20 Of: Spriggs, Bode t Hollingsworth 1015 Fifteenth Street, Northwest 21 Washington, D. C. 20005 22 23 RON JOHNSON REPORTERS MT-PWHD-016288 1 APPEARANCES: (Cont.) 2 Por Batl Iron Works: 3 G. WILLIAM BIGBEE, ESQ. Oft HcTeague, Bigbee & Libner 4 169 Park Row P. 0. Box 340 5 Brunswick, Maine 04011 6 Por Owens-Coming Fiberglass* 7 THOMAS C. BAGERTY, ESQ. Of: Kaboney, Bogan, Beffler & Beale 8 925 Washington Building 15th Street and Kew York Avenue, Northwest 9 Washington, D. C. 20005 10 For B. K. Porter Company, Inc., and Southern Textile Corporation: 11 WILLIAM R. WATKINS, ESQ. 12 Of: Sands, Anderson, Marks i Killer 1000 Main Street Centre 13 Richmond, Virginia 23216 14 Por Raymark Industries: IS JAMES M. MCCAULEY, ESQ. Of: Boyle, Corbett, Hubbard 6 Smith 16 11048 Warwick Boulevard, Suite 201 Newport News, Virginia 23601 17 For the Department of Justice: 18 ELIZABETH F. KROOP, ESQ. 19 ANN D. KACHBAR, ESQ. Department of Justice 20 Civil Division, Torts Branch 521 12th Street, Northwest 21 Washington, D. C. 20530 22 23 3 RON JOHNSON REPORTERS MT-PWHD-016289 1 WITNESS* Henry G. Murad 2 EXAMINATION BY COUNSEL* PAGE 3 MR FELDMAN ............... 5 4 MR. ZEVKIK ............... 35 5 MS. WEISS . ....................... 53 6 MR. MCCAULEY . .... ............................................. 54 7 MR. ZEVNIK ............................................... 59 8 MS. KROOP . . . . ............................ 62 9 MR. MULVEY . . . . ...................................... . . 80 10 MR. BIGBEE ...... ....................................... 93 11 MR. WATKINS . . .... .......................... 98 12 MR. ZEVNIK . . . . . . ........................ .... . 105 13 MR. FELDMAN . . . ...................................... . 10 8 14 MS. KROOP ...................................................................... 109 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 4 RON JOHNSON REPORTERS MT-PWHD-016290 1 PROCEEDINGS 2 Thereupon 3 Henry G. Murad 4 vas called as a witness, and after being first duly 5 sworn by the notary, was examined and testified as 6 follows: 7 EXAMINATION BY MR. FELDMAN: 8 C Mr. Murad, would you state your full name for 9 the record, please. 10 A Henry G. Murad. 11 0 Where do you reside, sir? 12 A 9822 Bridleridge Court, Vienna, Virginia. 13 Q Before we begin, I wonder if we can go around 14 the room and note our appearances for the record. My 15 name is Richard Feldman. 16 I am with the firm of Rivkin, Leff, Sherman 17 and Radner in Garden City, New York, representing the 18 defendant, Pittsburg Corning, Incorporated, in both the 19 Maine and the Washington State litigation. 20 MR. MULVEY: William Mulvey, Jr., representing 21 the plaintiff in Federal District Court in Portland, 22 Maine. 23 MR. HIGBEE: william Higbee, Brunswick, Maine, RON JOHNSON REPORTERS MT-PWHD-016291 6 1 representing B*tl Iron Works in the jurisdiction of 2 Maine. 3 US. WEISS: Deirdre Weiss, representing 4 Eagle-Pitcher. 5 MR. BAGERTY: Thomas Bagerty, of Mahoney, 6 Bogan, Beffler & Beald of Washington, appearing for 7 Owens-Corning Fiberglass, on behalf of Jack Montgomery, e of Jensen, Baird, Gardner & Benry, Portland, Maine. 9 MB. WAKINS: William Watkins representing B. 10 K. Porter Company, Incorporated, and Southern Textile 11 Corporation. 12 MR. MCCAULEY: James McCauley, Ray mark 13 Industries, Inc. 14 MS. KACBBARt Ann Nachbar, for the United 15 States. 14 MS. KROOP: Elisabeth Kroop, representing the 17 United States. 18 BY MR. FELDMAN: 19 Q Mr. Murad, vbat is yourdate of birth? 20 A September 29, 1932. 21 C What is the highest level of education that 22 you have attained? 23 A Master's degree. RON JOHNSON REPORTERS MT-PWHD-016292 7 1 0 Where did you do your undergraduate studies? 2 A Utica College* part of Syracuse University. 3 C What type of degree did you attain? 4 A Chemistry. 5 0 Do you recall the date that you received that 6 degree? 7 A 1954. e Q Where did you do yourpost-graduatestudies? 9 A At the University of Karyland, College Park* 10 Maryland. 11 Q What did you receive your post-graduate degree 12 in? 13 A Chemistry. 14 C When did you receive that degree? 15 A Fifty-seven. 16 C Could you tell me the subject ofcourses you 17 studied with respect to both your undergraduate degree 18 and post-graduate degree? 19 A Oh* primarily in chemistry andphysics and 20 math* plus the languages* in English* and the normal 21 liberal arts courses that are required. 22 Q Do you have anyprofessionallicenses or 23 certifications? FON JOHNSON REPORTERS MT-PWHD-016293 6 1 A No. 2 Q Are you a member of any professional society 3 or organization? 4 A No. S 0 Have you ever been a member at any point in 6 time? 7 A From time to time, yes. 8 Q Could you tell me which ones? 9 A American Chemical Society. 10 Q When were you a member, sir? 11 A In the sixties, the early sixties. Let's see. 12 I was a member, a government member of the ASTK, American 13 Society of Testing and Materials. 14 0 When was that? 15 A That was from *69 to '72. Let's see. That is 16 the only two that come to mind at the moment. 17 0 You have indicated that youreceived your 18 post-graduate degree from the University of Maryland in 19 1957, is that correct? 20 A That is correct. 21 0 Were you employed subsequent to that time 22 period? 23 A Subsequent? RON JOHNSON REPORTERS MT-PWHD-016294 9 1 0 Yes. 2 A Yes, certainly. 3 0 What was the name of youremployer? 4 A I worked for the Air Force at Rome Air 5 Development Center until 1963. 6 Q You worked therecontinuously from *57? 7 A I was in the Army for a short time, from 8 November, *57, to June of I guess it was late Kay of '58. 9 I was in the Army. 10 Then I vent back to Rome Air Development 11 Center until September of *63, and X worked for Dtica, 12 taught college level chemistry courses until May of *65. 13 X went to work for the Navy at what was then 14 called the Karine Engineering Laboratory in Annapolis in 15 Kay, '65, until November of *66. 16 X then vent to work for what was then called 17 the Naval Ship Engineering Center in Washington from 18 November, '66 until about October, or maybe it was 19 November of '72, and then for Naval Sea Systems Command. 20 I guess it was Ship Systems Command. 21 They keep changing the names. X can't 22 remember vbat exactly it was called at the time. X think 23 it was Naval Ship Systems Command at that time, until RON JOHNSON REPORTERS MT-PWHD-016295 10 X February of *79, then Air Force Systems Command until 2 November of '81, and my current job is with the 3 headquarters of the o. E. Air Force. 4 Q Let me take you back in time. You indicated 5 that you worked at the Karine Engineering Laboratories 6 between 1965 and 1966, is that correct? 7 A Yes, that is correct. 8 MR. FELDMAN: Would you note your apperaance. 9 Pa ul ? 10 KR. 2EVNIK: Paul Zevnik, for GAF Corporation. 11 BY MR. FELDMAN: 12 Q Where are the Marine Engineering Laboratories 13 located? 14 A In Annapolis, Maryland. 15 0 Did you have a job title there? 16 A X was a senior chemist. 17 0 Did you work in any particular area of the 18 laboratory? 19 A In the fluid processes branch of the 20 machinery, ship machinery division, and fluid processes 21 branch had to do mainly with water treatment and 22 submarine atmosphere treatments. 23 0 What were your particular duties and RON JOHNSON REPORTERS MT-PWHD-016296 11 1 responsibilities then? 2 A I was in both of those, specific aspects of 3 both of those. I was working with Keans to condition 4 ship*s boiler water and also to provide better submarine 5 atmosphere. 6 C So, is it a fair statement then you were 7 involved in research and development in those two areas? 8 A Yes, that is correct. 9 0 Nov, subsequent to that time period --- I 10 believe you said you worked at the Naval Ship engineering 11 Center from 1966 to 1972, is that correct? 12 A That is correct. 13 0 Did you work in any particular unit or branch 14 of the Naval Ship Engineering Center? 15 A Yes. I worked for what they called the 16 materials development, I think it was called a division 17 at that time. They had a specific code, 6101-C. 16 At first I worked for C02, and then later for 19 COl. It was two different sections within a branch. 20 Q Did you work with any particular unit of the 21 materials development division at Naval Ship Engineering 22 Center during this time period? 23 A Yes, that is what I am saying. 6101-CO2 was RON JOHNSON REPORTERS MT-PWHD-016297 12 1 with the chemistry and toxicology unit. I believe that 2 is what they called it. 3 I worked there until about September of '70 -- 4 let's see, '69, September of '69. Then, from September 5 of '69 to November of '72, I worked in the codings 6 section. 7 0 Nov, with respect to the time that you worked 8 at the chemistry and toxicology unit, did you have a job 9 title? 10 A That was a chemical engineer. 11 Q What were your duties and responsibilities as 12 a chemical engineer? 13 A Primarily overseeing the work on shipboard 14 water treatment systems and fire fighting chemicals. 15 0 During this period of time, did you have any 16 responsibilities with respect to the drafting of 17 specifications? 18 A Yes. 19 0 Could you define for me the term 20 specifications? 21 A Well, it is a document that describes an item 22 which service wants to procure. 23 C Are you familiar with the term military RON JOHNSON REPORTERS MT-PWHD-016298 13 1 specification? 2 A Yes, I an. 3 0 Could you define that for ne? 4 A Hell, that is a specification that deals with 5 an iten that the military service wants to procure. 6 0 During the tine period that you worked in the 7 chemistry and toxicology unit, did you have occasion to e deal with the preparation of military specifications? 9 A Yes. 10 0 And did those military specifications relate 11 at all to thermal insulation products? 12 A No, not in that job. 13 0 Did you have a job title at the time that you 14 worked in the codings unit between September of '69 and 15 November of *72? 16 A Yes. I was a materials engineer. 17 Q And what were your duties and responsibilities 18 as a materials engineer? 19 A Z oversaw all kinds of aspects of shipboard 20 thermal insulation and also fire protection qualities, 21 and a few special projects that had to do with 22 specialized codings. 23 0 You mentioned that you were involved with RON JOBNEON REPORTERS MT-PWHD-016299 14 1 preparation of shipboard thermal Insulation products, is 2 that correct? 3 A That is correct. 4 C You were involved with the preparation of 5 military specifications for shipboard thermal insulation products, is that correct? 7 A Yes, that is true. Also, some federal e specifications, which are essentially the same thing, 9 except they have a wider application. 10 Q During this period of time, did you become 11 involved in the preparation of military specifications 12 for asbestos containing thermal insulation products? 13 A I became involved in reviewing them and making 14 appropriate amendments as necessary, yes. 15 0 Between 1972 and 1979, I believe you testified 16 that you worked at the Kaval Ship Systems Command, is 17 that correct? 18 A That is correct. 19 0 Did you have a particular job title tbere? 20 A I believe it was general engineer. 21 Q What were your duties and responsibilities as 22 a general engineer? 23 A Primarily to improve what is called the design RON JOHNSON REPORTERS MT-PWHD-016300 15 1 service allocation program, which was a critical segment 2 of the fleet modernization program. 3 What that means is we tried to improve a way 4 of making sure that all design aspects needed to 5 modernize the naval fleet were attended to so that we could do a good job modernizing the fleet. 7 Q Between 1972 and 1979, did you have occasion 8 to work with military specifications for thermal 9 insulation products? 10 A No, I did not, not at that time. 11 Q Not at that time? 12 A No. 13 Q I believe you testified that between 1979 and 14 1981 you worked at the Air Force Systems Command, is that 15 correct? 16 A That is correct. 17 0 Where was that commandlocated? 18 A That is at Andrews Air Force Base in Maryland. 19 0 Did you have a job title there? 20 A Yes. That was -- it was called general 21 engineer. 22 0 What were your duties and responsibilities as 23 general engineer? RON JOHNSON REPORTERS MT-PWHD-016301 16 1 A Primarily to be a coordinator of all aspects 2 of work having to do with a couple of different programs. 3 One had to do with a group of pieces of 4 equipment listed as other operational equipment. It had 5 to do with flight line equipment, generators, other kinds 6 of support equipment. Also, with civil engineering, with 7 fire fighting, tactical shelters, specialized pieces of 6 equipment for arresting aircraft quickly, called the 9 mobile aircraft arresting system, with techniques for 10 quickly repairing runway surfaces. 11 I should say, it also had to do with Air Force 12 uniform clothing. 13 C Between 1979 and 1981, didyour job 14 responsibilities have anything to do at all with drafting 15 or review of military specifications? 16 A Ko. Occasionally Z would refer to one, but I 17 didn't draft any at that point. 16 Q Am I correct that you testified that from 1981 19 to the present you were with the D. S. Air Force? 20 A That is correct. 21 Q And where are you presentlystationed? 22 A Pentagon, Washington. 23 Q Do you have a particular job title there? RON JOHRSON REPORTERS MT-PWHD-016302 17 1 A General engineer. 2 0 tihat are your duties and responsibilities as 3 general engineer? 4 A Again, basically coordinator of all aspects of 5 the hinds of things I mentioned before, plus chemical 6 warfare. 7 Q Prom 1981 to the present, have you been 6 involved at all in the drafting or review of military 9 specifications of thermal insulation products? 10 A Ho. 11 0 Kov, I believe you testified that between 12 1969, when you were with the codings unit, you were 13 familiar with the preparation of military specifications 14 for thermal insulation products, is that correct? 15 A That is correct. 16 Q You were familiar with military specifications 17 for asbestos containing insulation products, is that 16 correct? 19 A Yes. 20 0 Are you familiar with the process by which a 21 military specification for thermal insulation product, be 22 it asbestos containing or nonasbestos containing product, 23 was in fact drafted? RON JOBNSON REPORTERS MT-PWHD-016303 18 1 A Yes. 2 0 Could you tell me the name of the entity or 3 entities that would be responsible for the actual 4 preparation of that specification? 5 A Responsible for preparing the spec? 6 Q Yes. 7 A Of course, the Navy was responsible for 6 preparing the specs that they were interested in. 9 0 Anybody in particular in the Kavy? 10 A Sure. I wasinvolved, primarily involved in 11 drafting changes to specs. Of course, it had to be 12 worked in a corporate way so that we would start it 13 going, and it would have to go through all pertinent 14 offices for their review and concurrence and any changes 15 would have to be Bade. 16 Q Let me ask the question this wayt Was a 17 technical code or a program engineer designated to have 18 responsibility for the drafting of a military 19 specification? 20 A Yes. 21 0 Would thatdepend upon thetype of material 22 that was involved with the specification? 23 A Type of material or equipment, as the case may RON JOHNSON REPORTERS MT-PWHD-016304 19 1 be. 2 0 Do you have knowledge as to the way in which 3 that specification was actually drafted, in other words, 4 the initial procedure that was undertaken by the 5 technical code of the program engineer prior to the time 6 the spec was actually drafted? 7 A Could you repeat that again? I think I know 8 the answer, but go ahead. 9 Q I would like to trace your knowledge from the 10 time that the program engineer was given responeibility 11 to draft that initial spec. 12 Did he sake use of any particular information 13 in his preparation of the spec? 14 A Yes. You made use of whatever information was 15 pertinent. Sometimes that would come from industry, 16 sometimes it might come from the users who were actually 17 making use of the equipment. In our case, it wasn't 18 equipment so much as material. But, in general, it could 19 be for the equipment users. 20 Q Would any information come from any 21 governmental agency? 22 A If it were available, yes. 23 Q Once this information was gathered from these RON JOHNSON REPORTERS MT-PWHD-016305 20 1 various sources, would the specification be drafted in 2 any particular format? 3 A Yes. There vas a format that was adhered to, 4 and that was laid down by an office whose prime 5 responsibility was to coordinate all aspects of 6 specifications. 7 Q Could you tell me what that format consisted 8 of? 9 A Hell, you looted at the references, other 10 items that were in effect that were applicable. You 11 addressed either the performance or the design 12 characteristics of the item at hand, set forth any 13 specialised provisions, identify-- usually identify what 14 the function of the item being described was intended to 15 be, and would identify packaging provisions. 16 That is basically it. 17 C How, once this specification was put into this 18 formated form, was the specification sent to any 19 particular entity or entities? 20 A Yes. It was sent to all pertinent offices 21 within the Navy department -- 22 Q Continue your answer. 23 A -- sister service, other government offices RON JOHNSON REPORTERS MT-PWHD-016306 21 1 thet would have an Interest, and to industrial 2 organizations that were legitimately involved* 3 0 Why would the specifications be sent to the 4 various entities that you have just testified to? 5 A Kell, they all had an interest in it, and any 6 changes potentially impacted their business or their 7 areas of interest and therefore they were given an 6 opportunity to review it and make sure that their 9 interests were satisfied. 10 Q is it a fair statement that the specification 11 would be sent to them for their comments? 12 A Oh, yes. They were for review and comment. 13 0 And would comments have been made from the 14 various entities to the person who initiated these 15 specifications? 16 A It went through the specifications section 17 that I mentioned, for record keeping purposes, and then 18 it would eventually end up with an action officer, like I 19 was for that particular discipline, for working. 20 If there were arty comments that needed 21 resolution, it was up to the action officer responsible 22 for amending or revising the specification to work it out 23 with those people that made the comments. P.ON JOHNSON REPORTERS MT-PWHD-016307 22 1 Q Has the person who had responsibility or the 2 entity that had responsibility for resolving these 3 comments free to accept, reject or ignore comments 4 received from various entities? 5 A There are two types of comments. One vas an essential comment. The other category vas a noneesential 7 comment. 8 The nonessential comments could be rejected 9 without even conferring with the commentor. Normally, it 10 wasn't done out of courtesy, but it could be done. 11 The essential comments had to be resolved. 12 0 Who had prime responsibility though for the 13 resolution of those essential comments? 14 A Well, the action officer. 15 0 Nov, assuming that the officer resolved 16 comments, was the specifications sent to anybody or any 17 entity for approval? 18 A Yes. It went up through that specification 19 office and then it also went before a review board made 20 up of senior people who were from each of the Important 21 disciplines within the Navy to Insure that their 22 interests were protected. 23 Q Was that review board formally known as the RON JOHNSON REPORTERS MT-PWHD-016308 23 1 Specification Control Board? 2 A I think it was the Specification Review Board. 3 It nay have been Control Board. 4 0 Do you know when the Specification Review or 5 Control Board first became established? 6 A I am guessing at this. 7 0 I don't want you to guess. Do you have any 8 specific knowledge? 9 A I can't pinpoint the date. 10 0 Can you give me an proximate date? 11 A Approximately, about 1970. 12 Q 1970? 13 A Yes. 14 Q Can you tell me what thefunction of the 15 Specification Control or Review Board was in 1970? 16 A Kell, to insure that the interests of the Navy 17 in their major areas of discipline were in fact protected 18 so that a change to a specification did not adversely 19 affect one aspect of the Navy's work that the drafter may 20 not have thought of. 21 Q And did the Specification Reviewor Control 22 Board have the ultimate authority to cause a 23 specification to be issued? ROH JOHNSON REPORTERS MT-PWHD-016309 24 1 A Yes. It vas necessary for you to get it 2 approved by the Specification Review Board, as I recall. 3 0 To your knowledge, is the Specification Review 4 or Control Board in existence today? 5 A I don't know. 6 0 Back in 1970, do you recall what the 7 composition of the board was? 8 A Kell, it was made up of senior people from 9 each of the KAVSAC, Naval Ship Engineering Center codes 10 or offices, and also from select offices at Naval Ship 11 Systems Command. 12 0 To your knowledge, was the Specification 13 Review or Control Board in existence throughout the 14 1970s? 15 MS. KROOP* The question vas asked and 16 answered. 17 MR. FELDMAN* Be said he wasn't certain ab to 16 whether it vas in existence today, and he did testify 19 that he believed it vas established in 1970. 20 BY MR. FELDMAN* 21 0 My question vast Do you know whether in fact 22 it was in existence during the 1970s? 23 A I don't know. I don't know. It vas there RON JOHNSON REPORTERS MT-PWHD-016310 25 1 while I was at NAVSAC, at Naval Ship Engineering Center. 2 BY HR. FELDMAN: 3 Q That was between 1972 and 1979? 4 A No. Between 1969 and 1972. 5 0 It was in existence at least during that 6 period? 7 A At least during that time, and I believe 8 eocetixce after that. Whether they are in existence now 9 or if they went out of existence at a particular tide, 10 that, I don't know. 11 0 Are you faailiar with the ter qualified 12 products list? 13 A Yes. 14 Q Let se withdraw that question for a second. 15 Dealing with the Specification Control Board, 16 on occasion, would a specification which had been issued 17 have cause to be revised? 18 A la not sure if X understand that question. 19 MS. KROOP: Vague question. 20 BY MR. FELDMAN: 21 0 Subsequent to the tine that a specification 22 was issued, would the need so&eti&es a rise for that 23 specification to be revised at all? RON JOHNSON REPORTERS MT-PWHD-016311 26 1 A Again? 2 Q Yes. 3 A The second time in? 4 0 Yes. 5 A That is conceivable,sure. 6 0 Under what circumstances would it be revised? 7 A New information would come in. For the same 6 reason it was revised the first time, the same kind of 9 thing could cause it to be revised again and again and ad 10 inf initern. 11 0 And each time that it was revised, would the 12 revised specification, as drafted, be required to be sent 13 to the Specification Control Board for approval and 14 issuance? 15 A 1 believe they had a mechanism whereby the 16 Control Board determined, through their secretary, 17 whether it was significant enough of a change to warrant 18 their time. 19 Q And assuming that it was significant enough? 2 A If it were not significant? 21 Q Assuming it was significant enough. 22 A They would get involved again. 23 Q And they in turn would have the ultimate RON JOHNSON REPORTERS MT-PWHD-016312 27 1 authority for approval and issuance? 2 A That is correct. 3 Q Are you familiar vith the term qualified 4 products list? 5 A Yes. 6 Q Could you define what a qualified products 7 list is? 8 A It is a listing of products and manufacturers 9 of those products that have been predetermined to be of 10 satisfactory quality for government procurement. 11 0 To your knowledge, did any of the thermal 12 Insulation products that you had familiarity vith have 13 then associated with this a qualified products list? 14 A I believe there weresome. I can'tpinpoint 15 specific examples right now. 16 C Is it a fair statement, though, that not every 17 military specification had a qualified products list 18 associated with it? 19 A That is correct. 20 Q Could you tell me theprocess or the procedure 21 by which a manufacturer got his name onto the qualified 22 products list? 23 A Kell, he would apply for it, essentially pnn .inBKfiDK ppnR*rrT?n MT-PWHD-016313 28 1 giving the description of his product and asking that it 2 be reviewed and approved for listing on the qualified 3 products list. 4 Q Has that application presented in written 5 form? 6 A Yes. 7 0 To whom would it be presented? 8 k That would go into the specifications section. 9 There was a mechanism whereby they looked into the 10 quality of that particular product, and I am not 11 thoroughly familiar with all the procedures that were 12 used. 13 I did not get involved in actually testing 14 products to determine whether they were suited or not, 15 but there were people who did do that, I believe. 16 C Prom your answer, is it a fair statement that 17 before a manufacturer got his product on a list, that the 18 manufacturer was required to undergo testing procedures? 19 A Yes, that seemed normal to me. 20 C And are you familiar with any of the testing 21 procedures that the manufacturers bad to undergo before 22 their product was listed -- 23 A The only one I was involved in --- RON JOHNSON REPORTERS MT-PWHD-016314 29 1 KR. HXGBEEs Can you qualify the tine period? 2 KR. FELDMAN: I will ask Mr. Murad. 3 BY MR. FELDMAN* 4 0 During vhat period of tine were you familiar 5 with the procedure by which a nanufacturer got hineelf 6 listed on a qualified products list? 7 A This was while 1 was working for 6101-C01* in 8 the water treatnent and fire fighting chemicals. 9 C That was between September of *69 and November 10 of *72, is that correct? 11 A No. That was between November of '66 and 12 September of '69. It was for a particular fire fighting 13 chemical that was new at that tine. It was called 14 aguiese film forming foam, APFF. 15 Qualified products list was at least 16 considered/ and I believe drawn up for that item, and 17 testing was done. 18 Q Do you know where these tests were conducted? 19 A I believe the tests on those products were 20 conducted at the Naval Research Lab. 21 Q Mas that Naval Research Lab located in any 22 particular facility? 23 A Yes, in Washington. RON JOHNSON REPORTERS MT-PWHD-016315 30 1 0 Washington, D. C.? 2 A Yes, that is the name of the facility. Naval 3 Research Laboratory* And a particular -- I have 4 forgotten the particular department. 5 I remember the names of the folks of all* 6 C Were test results generated as a result of 7 those testing procedures, to your knowledge? 8 A Yes, I believe they were. 9 0 Were test results sent to any particular 10 entity? 11 A They had to be sent to the person that vas 12 involved in writing the spec. 1 wrote the spec for that 13 and we had to make sure that the test results were in 14 line with the required characteristics as identified in 15 the spec. 16 Q And assuming that the test results were in 17 line with the specification as written, would approval be 18 given for that product to find its way onto the qualified 19 products list? 20 MR* KULVEYi Objection. You are now changing 21 from a specific to the general# X believe, and X think 22 you are confusing the witness and the record* 23 Xt is my understanding that this transcript is RON JOHNSON REPORTERS MT-PWHD-016316 31 1 for presentation before a jury. 2 MR. FELDMANt That is correct. 3 MR. MOLVEY* The record is totally unclear at 4 this point in terms of whether or not you are talking 5 about the time period when he was dealing with a specific 6 product in 1966 to 1969 and whether you have switched to 7 it generally. 8 MR. FELDMAN: I will ask Mr. Murad. 9 BY MR. FELDMAN* 10 0 Were you talking about a specific product or a 11 general procedure by which products or manufacturers of 12 products found their way onto a qualified products list? 13 A I was referring to the specific case that I 14 was involved in. I understand that that was the normal 15 procedure. 16 Q During this entire time period that you have 17 just testified to? 18 A Yes. 19 0 Are you familiar with a program known as the 20 asbestos elimination or substitution program? 21 A Well, I don't think it was identified by that 22 specific title, but there was an effort used that had as 23 its goal to reduce the asbestos content of high RON JOHNSON REPORTERS MT-PWHD-016317 32 1 temperature insulation material. 2 0 Do you know the name of the entity that had 3 primary responsibility for that program? 4 A Probably our code, 6101-C02. 5 0 What was the overall function or goal of the program as you understood it at that time? 7 A Can I make acorrection? 8 0 Yes. 9 A 6101-C01. 10 C Khat was the overall goal of the program at 11 that time? 12 A The overall goal was to reduce the amount of 13 asbestos in high temperature insulation material and to 14 reduce the amount of asbestos dust in areas that we know 15 which asbestos was used. 16 0 Do you recall the formal name of the program 17 you have ju6t testified to? 18 MS. KROOP: Asked and answered 19 MR. FELDMAN: Be said he wasn't certain. Be 20 said he was not certain whether or not the program was 21 known by the name of asbestos substitution or 22 elimination. 23 My question to him was whether he knows the RON JOHNSON REPORTERS MT-PWHD-016318 33 1 formal title of that program. 2 THE WITNESS* NO, I don't. 3 BY MR. FELDMAN: 4 0 Do you know when that program was first 5 established? 6 A Specifically, I don't know the exact date. I 7 became involved in insulation materials and, of course, 8 asbestos containing insulation materials in September of 9 '69. 10 It was an ongoing effort. To my Knowledge, it 11 started roughly a year before that. 12 0 In 1968 or thereabouts? 13 A Yes. 14 0 What was your particular function in that 15 program? 16 A Again, that effort had to do with all aspects 17 of shipboard insulation, including high temperature 18 insulation that contained asbestos, trying to improve 19 insulation and what it did and how it interacted with 20 everything else, and that applies to all the insulation, 21 including all the thermal insulation, including the 22 asbestos containing high temperature insulation, in every 23 way, looking at the specs, trying to improve them. RON JOBNSON REPORTERS MT-PWHD-016319 34 1 looking at procedures, trying to improve then, answering 2 any questions that came up for problems that say have 3 been surfaced by any party that had a legitimate concern, 4 including the people that U6ed them. 5 0 For how long a period of time were you 6 involved with the program that you have just testified 7 about? 8 A About three years. 9 Q About three years. That would be until about 10 1971 or 1972, is that correct? 11 A 1972, that is correct. 12 Q 197 2? 13 A Yes. 14 MR. FELDMANt I have no further questions of 15 this witness. 16 MR. XEVNIKt I do. 17 MR. FELDMAN: Paul, do you want to come down 18 here? It would be easier for you. 19 MR. 2EVNIK: Sure, why not. 20 MR. FELDMAN: Mr. Murad, do you want to take a 21 five-minute break? 22 THE WITNESS: No, I'm fine. I just want a 23 glass of water. RON JOHNSON REPORTERS MT-PWHD-016320 35 1 EXAMINATION BY MR. IEVNIK* 2 q Bello, Mr. Mured. I am Paul Yevnik. I 3 represent GAF Corporation, and I will try to be brief. 4 Do you recall any occasion -- I ut talking now 5 about 1969 to the 1972 period, when a manufacturer of 6 asbestos products cane to you with a nonasbestos 7 substitute product? 8 A Yes. 9 0 Could you tell me when those instances were? 10 A Kell, let's see, there is Eagle-Pitcber cane 11 in roughly about *71, I believe, and stated that he -- or 12 their company had a mineral wool that could be used for 13 high temperature insulation and did not contain asbestos. 14 0 was this in direct response to the Kay 5, 1965 15 directive or invitation to remove asbestos from products 16 used on Navy ships? 17 A I would think it would be, yes. I obviously 18 don't know what they had in mind. I can only speculate 19 that they certainly were looking for a market for their 20 products. 21 MS. KROOPt For clarification purposes, can 22 you identify what invitation you are speaking of? 23 MR. IEVNIK: That i6 quite all right. I will RON JORNSON REPORTERS MT-PWHD-016321 36 1 ask the questions. 2 BY MR. %EVNIK: 3 o Do you recall any other occasions vhen 4 asbestos manufacturers came to you with a nonasbestos 5 substitute? 6 A There were -- let's see. There was a glass 7 clothe that was promoted as an alternative to the 8 asbestos clothe# and I believe it was Cummings Insulation 9 was one of the manufacturers that was promoting this. 10 There could well have been other people, too. 11 I don't believe that they manufactured it. X think they 12 marketed it. 13 q When these manufacturers came to you with an 14 asbestos product, what procedure would you follow? 15 A Ke would try to find a way for testing it. 16 0 What would you do, specifically? 17 A Well, there are two approaches; one, to 18 request that a program for development and testing IS evaluation be initiated and, two, to use whatever 20 vehicles were available to do the testing. 21 Q Would you say the testing would be the 22 necessary first step in any process to approve a 23 nonasbestos product for use in Wavy ships? RON JOHNSON REPORTERS MT-PWHD-016322 37 1 A Yes. In that Bind, it was important to Bake 2 sure that the item lived up to its claims and mas 3 seaworthy, so too speak. 4 0 And if someone came to you with a nonasbestos 5 substitute, you would ask them to proceed with testing of 6 the product? 7 A If they were willing to do it on their own, 8 that would certainly be of great advantage to the 9 government. 10 Q Would you request the manufacturers to submit 11 the products for qualification testing to the Navy? 12 A Not necessarily qualification testing for the 13 qualified products list, if you mean. It was more of an 14 operational test or developmental test, a cross between 15 the two, depending on the circumstances, to determine 16 just how satisfactory these products performed. 17 Q Do you recall asking any manufacturer to 18 submit nonasbestos materials for testing during your 19 tenure from 1969 to 1972? 20 A Yes. Towards 1972, there was an opportunity 21 to test the mineral wool on board a Navy ship that was 22 being used for testing for a wider or a different 23 purpose, let's say, and we were able to make use of that ROK JOHNSON REPORTERS MT-PWHD-016323 38 1 ship and install mineral wool in some of the high 2 temperature piping, and it was used in an actual voyage 3 off the coast of California. 4 Q Did you ever recommend that a specification be 5 altered or amended in order to permit the use of 6 nonasbestos substitutes for asbestos containing 7 materials? 8 A I don't think I did. I think we did get 9 involved in changing a standard, a military standard, 10 which, among other things, addressed the asbestos content 11 of high temperature insulation, and in that case, as I 12 recall, we reduced the asbestos content of high 13 temperature insulation. 14 Q Do you recall specifically what that military 15 specification was? 14 A 1 thing it was 769-C. It vent from C to D. 17 0 Did you make any other request for a change in 18 specifications for a high temperature thermal insulation 19 material? 20 A Not that I can recall specifically. 21 Q Before you made any recommendation that a 22 specification be changed, did you have to consult with 23 any other branch of the Navy? or\\- inaKcnv VPWiP'TPRfi MT-PWHD-016324 39 1 A I'm sorry Could you repeat that, please? 2 0 Before you made a recommendation that a 3 specification be changed to permit the use of a 4 nonasbestos product, did you have to consult or get the 5 approval of any other department of the Navy? MS. KROOPt Asked and answered. 7 THE WITNESS: Yes. We coordinated with all 8 parties. 9 MR. ZEVNIF* Before a recommendation, it 10 wasn't asked. 11 BY MR. 2EVNIK t 12 Q Did you consult or need to get the approval of 13 Commander Barboo? 14 A We worked with him and his office. I believe 15 he was in the chain of people who were in the 16 coordination link. 17 Q Was it necessary to have the Bureau of 18 Medicine and Surgery approve nonasbestos products before 19 they could be placed on qualified products li6ts? 20 A That, I don't know. 21 Q Did you ever refer manufacturers to the 22 National Academy of Sciences for testing of nonasbestos 23 products? RON JOHNSON REPORTERS MT-PWHD-016325 40 1 A I don't recall that 1 did, no. 2 0 Do you recall a Mr. Ralph Hands? 3 A I know the name. I don't think -- I didn't 4 work with him much, it at all, but I do remember the name 5 and 1 think he worked at BUMED, Bureau o Medicine and 6 Surgery. 7 0 Mould he have worked with Commander Barboo? 8 A I worked with commander Barboo from time to 9 time, yes. 10 Q In what connection? 11 A Kell, having to do with asbestos. 12 0 Did you receive directives from him in terms 13 of taking asbestos out of thermal insulation products 14 used by the Navy? 15 A I don't recall that specifically. Of course, 16 you know, we were all working to try to come up with 17 suitable substitutes to reduce the amount of asbestos, 18 primarily to reduce the amount of asbestos dust in all 19 parts of the ship and, of course, one feature, one 20 important factor would be to reduce the amount of 21 asbestos in the high temperature insulation. 22 C Do you recall, of your own personal knowledge, 23 why the asbestos substitution program was started? RON JOHNSON REPORTERS MT-PWHD-016326 41 1 A Yes. There was an article in the newspaper 2 describing what Dr. Selikoff from Ft. Sinai Hospital 3 believed or at least purported to be a link between 4 asbestos, airborne asbestos and lung cancer. 5 0 Did you personally read that article? 6 A I believe 1 did. 7 Q Do you recall when that was? 8 A Oh, it was about *68 or so. 9 0 This was prior to the time you became involved 10 in the nonasbestos substitute program? 11 A That is correct. 12 Q Do you recall who told you that this was the 13 genesis, if you will, for the nonasbestos program of the 14 Navy? 15 A I would say Ed Cherobrier. 16 C Bow do you spell that? 17 A I know how to spell Ed. Cherobrier is tough. 18 C-h-e-r-o-b-r -- 19 HR. FELDMAN: C-h-e-r-o-b-r-i-e-r, I think. 20 TBE fflTNESSt I will take your word for it. 21 It is probably right. 22 BY MR. ZEVKXKt 23 Q Did you work for hin? RON JOHNSON REPORTERS MT-PWHD-016327 42 1 A No, I did not work for bin. I worked with 2 hie. We both worked for e mutual boss at that tine. 3 Q Who was that? 4 A Frank Lovell. 5 MR. FELDMAN: How do you spell Lovell? 6 TEE WITNESS! L-O-V-e-1-1. 7 BY MR. IEVNIK: 8 0 Wbat was his position, if you recall? 9 A Cherobrier's position? 10 C Lovell's position. 11 A Lovell's position, he was a branch chief of 12 the chemistry and toxicology unit, or unit chief, 13 whatever they call it, section chief, I think it was. 14 Section chief is I think what it was. 15 0 This was in Byattsville? 16 A Well, at that time, in *68, we were in 17 downtown Washington. 18 0 You moved to Byattsville in *69? 19 A Then we moved to Byattsville in '69, that is 20 correct. 21 Q And you were there from *69 to '72, while you 22 were working in the nonasbestos substitute program in 23 Hyattsville, that is? BON JOHNSON REPORTERS MT-PWHD-016328 43 1 A Tee. Again, that is a minor point, but Z am 2 not sure if they refer to it as a specific program, but 3 certainly there was that goal. 4 0 li a manufacturer vere requesting placement on 5 a qualified products list, do you recall what form it 6 would be completed by the manufacturer? 7 A No, I don*t. 8 C Do you know to whom the form would be sent? 9 A It would be sent to the specifications 10 section, as I recall. It was code 6124. 11 0 Would it be sent to Jean Harmon? 12 A Yes. That was her section. 13 0 It is code 6124? 14 A Yes. I think that was the code number. 15 0 Did you work at all with Jean Harmon at the 16 Byatt6ville OOCter? 17 A Yes, with Jean and her people. She bad a 18 section of folks, maybe half a dozen or so. 19 0 Can you recall any particular projects that 20 you worked with her on? 21 A Nell, on all the specifications that I was at 22 all involved in. 23 C Did you work with her on any nonasbestos RON JOHNSON REPORTERS MT-PWHD-016329 44 1 substitute? 2 A Well, whatever the situation called for, yes. 3 If there -- she was involved in essentially making sure 4 that the specifications were kept up to date. That 5 pertained to all specifications; by all specifications, 6 the material type specifications, not ship specifications 7 per se. The specifications that described either a e material or a piece of equipment. 9 Q Tou took over in charge of this program or 10 activity or goal of removing asbestos from insulation 11 products in about September, 1969? 12 A That is correct. 13 Q Did you take over for somebody who was in that 14 position? 15 A Well, Tom Pagliesse had that job before I did. 16 Q Do you know how long he was in that position? 17 A He was in that job when I started at Kaval 18 Ship Engineering Center. That was, as I mentioned 19 before, in November of '66. So at least from that time, 20 and I don't know how long before that. 21 0 Now, when you were put in charge of this 22 nonasbestos substitute program, you were told that the 23 goal was to reduce the amount of asbestos in products RON JOHNSON REPORTERS MT-PWHD-016330 45 1 used by the Navy? 2 A Yes. 3 MS. KROOP: Objection. Ambiguous. 4 BY MR. ZEVNIKt 5 0 You can answer the question. 6 MR. FELDMAN; I think be did. The answer was 7 yes? 8 THE WITNESS; Yes. 9 EY MR. ZEVNIK: 10 Q Do you recall who told you that was the goal 11 of the program? 12 A Well, the boss. Leon Birnbaum pretty much 13 mentioned it, and Ed Cherobrier was still involved in it. 14 Even though we both worked for Birnbaum, he was a second 15 level supervisor. 16 Of course, now, that was not the only kind of 17 work I was doing. That was one aspect of the work. 18 There were other aspects to the job. That was not the 19 sole purpose of the job. 20 Q Was one goal of the program also to remove 21 asbestos materials from insulation materials used in Navy 22 vessels? 23 A Eure. That would be a factor. RON JOHNSON REPORTERS MT-PWHD-016331 46 1 0 When a manufacturer submitted a request for 2 qualification testing to be placed on a qualified 3 products list, who at the Navy would test the products? 4 A That would depend on who in the Navy had the 5 expertise. 6 0 Well, let's say thermal insulation products. 7 A Thermal insulation, we didn't have that much 8 expertise, we didn't have that much testing there. 9 Q Do you ever recall having a meeting with 10 representatives from CAP Corporation regarding an 11 asbestos-free substitute for asbestos containing 12 materials required by the Navy? 13 A I can't recall GAF, but I won't rule it out. 14 It just doesn't come to mind at this point. 15 0 Do you recall working with a William Svingen 16 (phonetic) or Richard Benry of GAP Corporation in the 17 development of an asbestos-free substitute for asbestos 18 containing thermal insulation materials? 19 A No, X don't recall it right now. 20 C Do you recall any manufacturer approaching you 21 with an asbestos-free calcium silicate thermal insulation 22 program? 23 A There was a calcium silicate thermal product. RON JOHNSON REPORTERS MT-PWHD-016332 47 1 I can't specifically recall a manufacturer coning in and 2 talking to se personally. Again, I am not saying that 3 that didn't happen. I just can't remember it. 4 X do knov that people at Newport News shipyard 5 shoved me some samples of calcium silicate, and they were 6 concerned about the fact that the samples that they 7 received -- it vac more than samples. They received a 8 shipment, which they had ordered, with the intention of 9 using it, using the calcium silicate as high temperature 10 insulation material for piping. 11 The good many, a high percentage of the piping 12 insulation vas broken on receipt and they were concerned 13 about its viability, the fact that it just didn't seem as 14 if it would be able to withstand the rigors of shipboard 15 use. 16 0 This was a nonasbestos products? 17 A Yes, that is what they told me. It is calcium 18 silicate. 19 Q Did you ever recommend that a specification be 20 changed in order to permit a nonasbestos calcium silicate 21 to be used on Navy vessels? 22 KR. KULVEYi Objection. That question assumes 23 on the regulations and the military specs that existed ROK JOHNSON REPORTERS MT-PWHD-016333 4* 1 prior to 1969, that calcium silicate asbestos products 2 could not have been used. 3 BY MR. EEVRIK: 4 Q You say answer the question. 5 A Ho, I didn't recommend it. As I recall, I 6 never got that far. 7 Q Did anyone ever ask you, to your recollection, 6 to seek a change in the specifications for calcium 9 silicate insulation so as to permit the use of a 10 nonasbestos product? 11 MR. HULVEY: Objection, same basis. 12 THE WITNESS: Do X answer? 13 MR. FELDMAN: Yes, yes. 14 BY MR. Z EVNIKt 15 Q Yes, you may answer. 16 A X can't recall it, to be very honest with you. 17 Again, the same thing, I don't recall it at this point. 18 0 Did you ever work with a person named Perry 19 Rogue? 20 A Rogue? Yes. 21 0 What did you work with him on? 22 A Well, he was at Philadelphia Naval Shipyard. 23 Excuse me, he was at the Naval Ship Engineering Center, RON JOHNSON REPORTERS MT-PWHD-016334 49 1 Philadelphia Division, and he and X worked on a couple of 2 different things, but as far as insulation is concerned, 3 he, I believe, as I recall, was one of the team members 4 that conducted survey of naval shipyards to determine the 5 wear and how insulation was used on board ship. 6 0 Did you ever see the results of his survey? 7 A X can't recall if I actually saw the results 8 of the survey. They started that and X think they 9 finished it before I was directly involved. 10 Even after X became involved, Ed Cherobrier 11 continued to work with that team in the resultant of 12 their survey. 13 It found its way into an instruction and I 14 believe X may have seen it, I may not have seen the 15 report or result of their survey. 16 X participated in writing the instruction that 17 X understand was a resultant of that survey. 18 0 What was that instruction? 19 A X believe it was 50100.26. 20 0 That was an instruction that asbestos efforts 21 be undertaken to remove asbestos dust from thermal 22 insulation materials? 23 KS. KROOP: Objection. Leading. ROK JOBKSOK REPORTERS MT-PWHD-016335 50 i THE WITNESS: Do I answer? 2 BY NR. EEVNIKt 3 0 You may answer the question. 4 A I act not so sure, it has been so darn long, I 5 can't remember exactly what the instruction said. 6 As I recall, though, it did have as its Bain 7 thrust, procedures that would reduce the amount of 6 asbestos dust in areas, primarily in areas of the ship 9 where high temperature insulation was used. 10 C Was this instruction the first time that you 11 had been informed or heard about the problems with 12 asbestos? 13 A No. It wasn't the first time. 14 0 Can you recall the first time? 15 MS. KROOPj Asked and answered. 16 BY MR. IEVNIK* 17 Q You may answer. 18 A Well, the absolute first time is when Ed 19 Cherobrier mentioned it to me, mentioned the concern to 20 me. 21 0 Now, you mentioned that there was a team of 22 people that were working with Bernie Bogus on this 23 project. RON JOHNSON REPORTERS MT-PWHD-016336 51 1 Do you know who else was on the team? 2 A There were a couple of people from KAVSAC 3 Philadelphia Division. I air trying to think of the 4 names. I can remember who they were. X can visualise 5 their,, but X can't think of their names offhand. 6 I think if you supplied the names, X would be 7 able to say yes, they were, or no, they weren't. I can't 8 think of their names right offhand. 9 0 Vou believe that a report of their survey was 10 prepared? 11 A I believe it was, but, again, X can't recall 12 actually seeing that. The resultant was, that X think -- 13 X as sure it contributed to the Instruction of 50100.26. 14 It may not have been the only contributor to 15 that instruction. There was other information drawn from 16 other sources, too, X believe. 17 Q Mow, as a materials engineer, what does the 16 term weight loss during heat soaking mean to you? 19 A Weight loss during heat soaking? 20 0 Weight loss during heat soaking, what does 21 that mean to you? 22 A X can only tell you what I think it means. X 23 don't think X ever heard the term before. It means to me TrtnuenH DrpftPTPRS MT-PWHD-016337 52 1 that material would lose weight when exposed to extensive 2 amount of beat. 3 0 Did you ever have occasion to deal with this 4 concept in connection with the asbestos substitute 5 program in the Navy? 6 A No, Z didn't. 7 0 Again, as a materials engineer, would asbestos 8 lose weight during heat soaking? 9 A I can't answer that. I can tell you that 10 asbestos is inert. The asbestos itself would not lose 11 weight when subjected to heat, unless it had previously 12 been 6oaked with water. 13 It is not the asbestos. The asbestos itself 14 is insert. It is possible there might be some water 15 crystalization. 16 I would have to look at the formula for 17 asbestos. That is the only way I could think of that it 16 would lose weight. 19 If there was some water crystalization, upon 20 exposure to high temperature that water crystalization 21 could volatilize or evaporate. 22 MR. ZEVNIKt I don't think I have any further 23 questions. Thank you. RON JOHNSON REPORTERS MT-PWHD-016338 53 1 MS. WEISS: Could I follow up on one point? 2 EXAMINATION BY MS. WEISS: 3 C This instruction, you said it had to do with 4 procedures governing the use of asbestos? 5 A That is correct, procedures for handling 6 asbestos. 7 Q You were involved with writing that 8 instruction? 9 A Yes. I believe I edited it on at least one 10 occasion in which it was drafted, and I vent through and 11 either finalized it or had a part in finalizing it. 12 C What year was that, do you think? 13 A I think it finally went out in 1970, sometime 14 in 1970, as I recall. 15 C Did you ever or did anybody in your office 16 ever have occasion to go to visit any shipyards to see 17 whether the recommendations in those instructions had 18 been implemented? 19 A Yes. I visited a couple of shipyards. 20 Q And did you have any conclusions? Did you 21 write anything as to whether or not the recommendations 22 had been implemented? 23 MB. MULVEY: Objection. It calls for an RON JOHNSON REPORTEPS MT-PWHD-016339 54 1 answer with respect to the name of the shipyard. Unless 2 you are going to pin it down, it is meaningless 3 testimony. 4 BY MS. WEISS: 5 Q What is the name of the shipyard you visited? A 1 visited Boston Naval Shipyard, that is one. 7 C Did you come to any conclusions about that 8 shipyard? 9 A They are in the process of instituting 10 changes. 1 don't think changes were totally finalized. 11 Q Was that your feeling about the other 12 shipyards that you visited for that purpose? 13 A I visited some of the shipyards on the east 14 coast, say Boston, Portsmouth Kaval Shipyard, Korfolk, 15 and, oh, let's see those were the main ones. 16 They were all in the process* 17 MS. KEISSt Thank you. No further questions. 18 MR. BAGERTY: No questions. 19 MR. WATKINS: No questions, 20 MR. IEVNIKj I have a couple of questions, but 21 I forgot. Go ahead. 22 MR. MCCAULEY: Thank you. 23 EXAMINATION BY MR. MCCAULEY: RON JOHNSON REPORTERS MT-PWHD-016340 55 1 C name is Jim HcCalley, Hr. Hurad. 2 A Yes. 3 0 Kith respect to the asbestos elimination 4 substitution program, you testified that that involved 5 the reduction of asbestos content in thermal insulation 6 materials? 7 A Yes, that vould be one of the factors 8 involved. 9 Q And another factor or aspect of the program 10 was also the elimination and substitution of thermal 11 insulation products containing asbestos? 12 A Yes. That vould be the ultimate goal, to have 13 entirely asbestos-free high temperature insulation, and 14 one that was, of course, suitable for use on board a ship 15 vith all the implied stresses that vould be involved. 16 Q And, finally, you also testified to another 17 aspect of the reduction of the dust levels on board a 18 ship? 19 A That is correct. 20 0 As a result of this survey you talked about, 21 is that correct? 22 A Right. 23 0 Which of those threeaspects vere you RON JOHNSON REPORTERS MT-PWHD-016341 56 1 primarily engaged in? 2 A Kell, of those that you mentioned, probably 3 the reduction of asbestos content in high temperature 4 insulation. 5 C Did you initiate or generate any amendments to 6 the specifications in that particular aspect of reduction 7 of content in thermal insulation materials? 8 A Hell, the only document I can recall that we 9 did anything like that in was that military standards, 10 769. 11 He called for a lower content asbestos, a 12 lower asbestos content high temperature insulation 13 material to be used. 14 Q You talked about an action officer several 15 times? 16 A Yes. 17 0 Are we talking about the person that is the 18 preparing actuator for the specification or are they one 19 in the same? 20 A Yes, that is what 1 was referring to -- that 21 may or may not be the term that people use -- a person 22 who actually did the work of writing the specifications 23 or revising, or whatever it took to make the changes. RON JOHNSON REPORTERS MT-PWHD-016342 57 1 0 During the period of 1969 to 1972, who was the 2 person or actuator that was most frequently involved with 3 the preparation of thermal insulation specifications for 4 asbestos products? 5 A Probably me. 6 Q Prior to 1970, or thereabouts, when you 7 testified that the Specifications Control Board came into 8 being, was there a predecessor group or organization that 9 was involved with the approval of specifications for 10 thermal insulation products? 11 A No. You went through the procedures in just 12 the same way that you did after that board came into 13 being. 14 It was controlled, if you want the use that 15 term, was looked over by that office that controlled 16 specifications and coordinated them. 17 In other words, the group that Jean Harmon 18 headed up for a time, it was headed up by different 19 people at different times. 20 As I recall, it was Code 6124. But, 1 am not 21 sure why they decided to put senior level people in to 22 oversee the whole process. 23 Q Air. I correct in that prior to 1970, Code 6124 RON JOHNSON REPORTERS MT-PWHD-016343 58 1 was the approving authority for the specifications? 2 A Well, in effect, yes, because what they did 3 was just make sure that all parties that were 4 legitimately involved in review of a specification were 5 in fact given an opportunity to comment and that whatever 6 comments, any essential comments they had were either 7 incorporated or withdrawn or resolved, one way or the 8 other. 9 There were only three choices. You either 10 incorporated them as is, you changed it based on 11 discussion with the commentor, or the commentor withdrew 12 his comment. 13 0 So after the comment process and the 14 resolution of any problems created in the comment 15 process. Code 6124 would either approve or disapprove the 16 specification? 17 A In effect, yes. I'm not sure. I don't know 18 who actually signed it off. I believe it was sent up for 19 probably a higher level official to sign off. 20 I don't believe that Jean Barmon or her 21 counterpart, predecessor, had that authority. Bowever, 22 once it went beyond their office, I can't recall a case 23 in which it was not signed and issued. RON JOBNSON REPORTERS MT-PWHD-016344 59 1 In effect, they had the clearing authority. 2 0 Do you know# if you know, the identity of the 3 higher authority? 4 A I don't recall who that was. I would suspect 5 it would be an admiral or somebody at flag level, but 6 maybe not. 7 It could have been a captain. 8 0 Mould that be in the Naval Sea Systems 9 Command? 10 A Yes. I would think that would be Naval - 11 well, what is currently called Naval Sea Systems Command. 12 At that time it would be either -- it was probably 13 somebody at NAVSHIPS, but I can't recall it offhand. 14 A simple way to do it was go get an old spec 15 and look to see who signed it off. 16 HR. MCCAOLEY: That is all the questions I 17 have. Thank you. 18 THE WITNESS: Okay. 19 HR. ZEVNIK: I have a few more that I forgot. 20 EXAMINATION BY HR. ZEVNIK: 21 0 For the period 1969 to 1972, did you keep 22 correspondence files of the records? 23 A Yes, at that time I did. RON JOHNSON REPORTERS MT-PWHD-016345 60 I C Do you know where they would be located for 2 that time period? 3 A They would be at the same office# or whoever 4 hae taken over that function. 1 understand there has 5 been at least one# if not more reorganizations since I 6 left. 7 There isn't a Naval Ship Engineering Center 8 per se at this point in time, but certainly the functions 9 have to be done. 10 0 You mean a Naval Ship Engineering Center per 11 ee# Byattsville? 12 A Naval Ship Engineering Center that I know of. 13 Ky knowledge, that has been absorbed into Naval Sea 14 Systems Command as one of the codes, or in probably more 15 than one of the codes. 16 Q At the time you left that position, you don't 17 know who had custody of your records and correspondence? 18 A Yes. A1 Winer took over the work that had to 19 do -- I think he took over just the high temperature 20 insulation. 21 Be may have taken over, I think it was split 22 into inorganic insulation and organic. They are plastic 23 insulation. A1 took over the inorganic and I think it RON JOHNSON REPORTERS MT-PWHD-016346 61 X was Pete Gothier who took over the plastic insulation, 2 but I am really not sure. 3 I do know that A1 took over the part that you 4 would be interested in, in the asbestos area. 5 0 Did you keep any personal correspondence at 6 your home? 7 A No. 8 C You refer to KILL standard 60, which lowered 9 the content of asbestos. Was that promulgated on your 10 recommendation while you were in that position? 11 A 1 would say the answer to that would basically 12 be yes. I wouldn't be the only one involved, but I was 13 certainly all for it, and what it did was identify what 14 section of it, and what it did was identify lower 15 asbestos content high temperature insulation for use in 16 appied areas. 17 Q Now, when you say lower, do you recall what 18 the approximate percentage of asbestos was? 19 A No. That is wbat I was trying to recall over 20 the last day or so and 1 can't. I know it was a fairly 21 significant reduction, as I recall, but I can't recall 22 the numbers. 23 Q Is it fair to say that during your tenure in RON JOHNSON REPORTERS MT-PWHD-016347 62 1 that position, that no nonasbestos product was found by 2 you to be an adequate substitute for asbestos containing 3 material used by the Kavy yard's ships? 4 A That is right, none that we could show would 5 be seaworthy. 6 MR, Z EVNIK: Thank you. 7 MS. KROOP: Do you want to take a five-minute 8 break? 9 (Thereupon, there was a recess taken, 10 after which the following proceedings 11 were had:) 12 EXAMINATION BY MS. KROOP: 13 Q I have a few questions for you, and I am going 14 to direct all of y questions to the period when you 15 worked in the codings unit from 1969 to 1972, and 16 specifically with regard to your work on specs for 17 asbestos containing thermal insulation. 18 Okay ? 19 A Yes, 20 Q Insulation products. Is technical data 21 required in order to amend specifications? 22 A That is very helpful to have that, yes. 23 Q Where did the Navy get the technical data in RON JOHNSON REPORTERS MT-PWHD-016348 63 1 order to amend specs concerning asbestos products? 2 HR. ZEVNIK: Objection. There is no 3 foundation. Be already testified there was no amendment 4 to any specification for nonasbe6tos products during that 5 time period. 6 Therefore, there is no foundation for that 7 question. 8 BY HS. KROOP: 9 0 You may go ahead with your answer to the 10 question. 11 A Well, we relied on industry. 12 Q In an attempt to amend a specification, you 13 would rely on technical data from Industry? 14 A Yes, that is right. 15 0 Bow did industry supply this information to 16 the Navy? 17 A Normally, by two methods: word of mouth, and ie also with specification -- well, let's say data sheets 19 which could be determined, specification data sheets; not 20 to be confused with the military specification, but just 21 a descriptive data sheet that was published by the 22 manufacturer of the product. 23 Q Were there any brochures of any sort. RON JOHNSON REPORTERS MT-PWHD-016349 64 1 catalogs? 2 A Yes. It would take the fore, usually, of a 3 brochure or a data sheet that could be a part of a 4 catalog. 5 0 Were there any product catalogs that you 6 received? 7 A Again, usually it was in the form of just a 6 few sheets which would be a part or could be a part of a 9 loose-leaf notebook type of binder, which when put 10 together with other data sheets of products of the 11 manufacturers sold, would be tantamount to a catalog. 12 Q Were there products described in these data 13 sheets? 14 A Yes. 15 Q What kind of products were discussed? 16 A Well, of course, the insulation materials. 17 That is the area that I was interested in. 18 C Were the products going to be developed or in 19 existence? 20 A No. They would be in existence at that point. 21 Q So that in your experience in working in the 22 codings unit, when specifications were reviewed or 23 reviewed for amendment, were these suggested amendments RON JOHNSON REPORTERS MT-PWHD-016350 5 1 usually based on commercially available products? 2 A Yes. 3 0 Did asbestos manufacturers come to you with 4 any health hazard information associated with exposure to 5 asbestos during this time? 6 A Not that I recall, not health hazard 7 information. 8 0 Was any of it included in the technical data 9 sheets you received or other information that you 10 received? 11 A Not that I can recall, no. 12 C You testified that there was a process 13 involved in spec reviewing and amending specs? 14 A Yes. 15 Q Could you tell me the nature of the process 16 and coordination with industry during that process? What 17 was the first step? 18 HR. FELDMAN* I object. I am not sure that 19 this witness has testified as to that. I think it is a 20 mischaracterization of testimony. 21 BY MS. KROOP: 22 C You testified that youwereinvolved in 23 reviewing and amending asbestos thermal insulation RON JOHNSON REPORTERS MT-PWHD-016351 66 1 products specs, is that correct? 2 A Yes. 3 0 Bow would you initiate a process of amending a 4 spec? 5 A Veil, it would depend. It would be based on 6 information that would come in from either industry or 7 from the people or the organizations that made use of the 6 product, the users or the manufacturers. 9 Q When you say users, you mean users in the 10 Navy ? 11 A Yes, that is correct, people who work for the 12 Navy that had the job of installing insulation on board 13 ships. 14 0 What would users tell you? 15 A If they had a problem with the insulation, 16 they would make that known to us. Primarily, the vehicle 17 that should be used is a deficiency report, and sometimes 18 we would get deficiency reports. Other times we might 19 receive a letter or just phone calls. And depending on 20 the nature of the described problem or deficiency, if you 21 will, we would take appropriate action. 22 I am not trying to gloss over it, but there 23 were times when the deficiencies were not deemed to be PON JOHNSON REPORTERS MT-PWHD-016352 67 1 very important and we would always address it and work it 2 out with whoever submitted it. 3 Sometimes the submitter of the deficiency 4 information realized that it really wasn't a major point 5 and they withdraw it. 6 Other times we would have to go in and do 7 something about it. 8 Q What kind of information did industry submit? 9 A Product data, usually on new or modified 10 insulation that they have recently put on the market. 11 Q What was the next step after you received this 12 information, technical information? 13 A It could be put into a form of an amended spec 14 and work it right through the system to go to all parties 15 concerned. 16 0 Well, if you put it into an amended spec, did 17 you draft that amendment? 18 A Sure. 19 C And then what was the next step after that? 20 A Send it to -- first of all, you would have to 21 have a cover letter put on it, signed out by the boss. 22 That would be, I guess -- I guess Bernie Birnbaum had 23 signature authority. RON JOHNSON REPORTERS MT-PWHD-016353 8 1 I am not sure if Ed Korgenstern did or not, he 2 Kay. Normally, Bernie Birnbaum vould have the signature 3 authority and he would sign out a letter to all 4 interested parties for their coordination or let's say 5 review and comments. 6 Q And your draft was then based on the 7 information you received, is that correct, from industry? 8 MR. FELDMAN* Objection. 9 NR. MCCAULEYS Objection. 10 KR. WATKINS* That wasn't his testimony. 11 BY MS. KROOP: 12 Q Where did you get the technical information to 13 include in your draft? 14 A We relied on industry. 15 C You said that Mr. Bernie Birnbaum would sign a 16 letter, a cover letter? 17 A Yes. 18 C That would be circulated to parties, yousaid? 19 A Yes, to whoever in the industrial -- well, 20 whoever in the Navy and industry would be appropriately 21 involved. 22 0 Who might be appropriately involved? 23 A Well, depending on thekind ofinsulation. If RON JOHNSON REPORTERS MT-PWHD-016354 69 1 it bad to do with machinery, you would send it to the 2 machinery code. You would also send it to -- let's see, 3 who else -- people in the developing community, at 4 KAVSHIPS 03, the Code 03 -- 5 Q Who in industry sight receive that? 6 MR. FELDMANt I object. The witness is 7 answering a question and I would appreciate if you would 8 allow him to finish the question before you ask him 9 another question. 10 BY MS. KROOPs 11 Q I'm sorry. Go ahead and finish your answer. 12 A Okay. Other people within the Naval Ship 13 Engineering Center that had an interest in that item. 14 People who have one of the Naval Ship Engineering Center 15 divisions, primarily the Philadelphia division. 16 Sometimes the shipyards, to determine whether the 17 proposed change was agreeable to them, because, after 16 all, they could be impacted by it. 19 0 Did you also send these drafts out to 20 industry? 21 A Yes. 22 Q In the case of an asbestos containing 23 insulation product, would it go to the asbestos RON JOHNSON REPORTERS MT-PWHD-016355 70 1 manufacturers? 2 A Yes, to RIMA# the National Insulation 3 Manufacturers Association. 4 C Would it also go to specific individual 5 manufacturers? 6 A As I recall# we sent it to NIMA and, of 7 course# then NIMA would send it to their members. 6 I don't recall sending it to specific 9 manufacturers# although I don't see any objection to 10 doing that. 11 It just wasn't -- it was much more easy to 12 just send it to one organization and let that 13 organization fan it out to whoever they thought would be 14 interested. 15 0 Did you ever unofficially hand it to any 16 manufacturers? 17 A Yes# on request# if they asked for it# sure. 18 We would work with them and give them a copy of the 19 proposed draft. 20 Q What was the purpose of sending out the 21 proposed draft to industry? 22 A Well, to make sure that whatever change -- 23 again, in point# there weren't that many changes -- but RON JOHNSON REPORTERS MT-PWHD-016356 71 1 whatever change would be agreeable to them. 2 Q Did you receive written comments from 3 industry? 4 A Yes. You would get a letter in from KINA that 5 would usually summarize the KIHA position and sometimes 6 they would even summarize some of their members 7 positions, particularly if it were not in line with the 8 NIKA overall positions. 9 0 Can you tell me what KIKA stands for? 10 A National Insulation Kanufacturers Association. 11 Q Can you tell me who were the members of KIKA 12 at that time? 13 A Oh, mostly insulation companies. 14 Q Can you name them? 15 A I would say Owens Corning, Pittsburg Corning, 16 Johns-Kanville, H. K. Porter, Raybestos Manhattan, and 17 probably GAF. 18 Probably all of them. 19 Q Were drafts also sent to the ASTK? 20 A Well, any aspect that had to do with testing 21 would go to ASTK. 22 0 And then what would happen? These comments 23 would come back in, and what was the next step? RON JOHNSON REPORTERS MT-PWHD-016357 72 1 A You would either Incorporate -- you would look 2 at them to find out which ones were essential, which ones 3 were not essential. 4 The essential ones you either had to 5 incorporate or resolve. The nonessential ones we tried 6 to do -- at least I used to try to do the saute thing with 7 the nonessential ones, but you weren't required to do 8 that. 9 0 Did you talk to industry in trying to resolve 10 these questions? 11 A Oftentimes, yes. 12 Q Would there be records of these comments from 13 industry? 14 A Yes. They vould come in through a 15 specification code and come on down to a specific office. 16 Yes, there vould be records. 17 Q would there still berecords available? 18 A That, Z don't know how often they clean out 19 their safes or cabinets. 20 Q Was there a particular file for these comments 21 at the time? 22 A Yes. 1 don't know if everybody did the same 23 thing. What I vould do is just have a folder for a RON JOHNSON REPORTERS MT-PWHD-016358 73 1 particular epee and anything that pertained to that spec 2 would go into that folder. At least that is what I tried 3 to do. 4 Q Did you have any personal contact with 5 asbestos industry ssanufacturers during this time? 6 A Yes, their reps, their representatives would 7 come in and we would talk about different aspects of 8 insulation. 9 C Do you remember the names of any of the 10 companies? 11 A Again, all the names that 2 mentioned earlier 12 as being members of NIMA, those people. 13 Q Okay. 14 A And there were several others, too. 15 HR. FELDMAN: I am sure Nr. Musad can 16 enlighten you on that. 17 BY NS. KROOP: 16 0 Are you aware of any Navy solicitation or Navy 19 impliment in -- are you aware of any Navy solicitation 20 for industry assistance in implementing the asbestos 21 substitution elimination program? 22 A We met with them in a number of ways. The 23 most common way was through their representatives. RON JOHNSON REPORTERS MT-PWHD-016359 74 1 They came In and we would talk, and certainly 2 it was clear that the Navy was interested in high 3 temperature insulation that contained the lower amount of 4 asbestos, and the ultimate goal would be no asbestos at 5 all and still be able to be used on board ship. 6 There was one meeting that comes to mind, 7 probably the only one that I can recall at this point, 6 and that was a little before I really was officially in 9 the job, when it was fairly evident that I would get the 1C job that I did get, it was the middle of September of 11 '69, in which there were industry representatives, and as 12 I recall, the information that was discussed at that 13 meeting was used in the instruction that finally went 14 out, the 50100.26, end also we talked about the ultimate 15 goal of having zero asbestos in high temperature 16 insulation. 17 Q Did the Navy solicit industry to produce 18 asbestos-free or lower asbestos products? 19 A Well, in that way, it was mostly through 20 friendly persuasion, so too speak. I don't recall any 21 written documentation. 22 There may have been, but I don't recall. 23 Mostly, it was word of mouth type of thing, where we made RON JOHNSON REPORTERS MT-PWHD-016360 75 1 Known to them that we were interested in either lower 2 asbestos or ultimately zero asbestos content in 3 insulation. 4 Q Do you recall any letters that went out to 5 industry on this subject? 6 A I can't recall one. Again, its possible that 7 there were some. B Q You testified before that the manufacturers 9 did bring two nonasbestos products to you? 10 A Kell, they brought one that I saw, and that 11 was the mineral wool that Eagle-Pitcher brought a sample 12 of and that we finally did have an opportunity to put on 13 board ship for testing purposes. 14 The other one is calcium, silicate. I don't 15 recall actually getting a sample of it myself. 16 Again, I can't rule it out, but I do recall 17 seeing it at Newport News shipyard in which the Newport 18 News people told me that they received a shipment in 19 which a significant percentage of it was broken on 20 delivery. So they were very concerned, again, calcium 21 silicate, as it was produced at that time, was not 22 seaworthy. 23 Q Kere you aware of any other products brought RON JOHNSON REPORTERS MT-PWHD-016361 76 1 to you by industry as being asbestos-free or lover 2 asbestos than the two you just mentioned? 3 A Yes. There was the glass cloth as opposed to 4 asbestos cloth. 5 0 Okay. 6 A That is one. And there was a lover asbestos 7 content batting material that B. K. Porter was trying to 8 promote. 9 C What happened vith that? 10 A Well, I thought that was very dusty. That was 11 By personal opinion. 12 0 bid E. K. Porter show tests for this product 13 to the Navy? 14 A There was a letter. It was certainly far from 15 a formal test report, in my view, but there was a letter 16 that addressed the issue and that was about it. That is 17 all I saw. 18 I also saw a sample. I should, you know *-- I 19 shouldn't say you know. I did give it a very superficial 20 choke test, so too speak, choke point test. By that, I 21 mean, I took it and wiggled it around and threw it 22 against the wall a couple of times to try to simulate 23 shipboard use. RON JOHNSON REPORTERS MT-PWHD-016362 77 1 0 And it was dusty? 2 A It was dusty. 3 Q And that is all you rea ember of that 4 substitute product? 5 A Yes, on that particular one. 6 0 bid the specifications you were involved in 7 amending, concerning asbestos products, contain packaging 6 provisions? 9 A Yes, they did. 10 0 Were complete versions of the drafts of any 11 amended specs circulated to industry for comment? 12 MR. SEVNIKt Objection. What do you mean by 13 complete? 14 MS. KROOP: Z mean, did these drafts contain 15 packaging provisions and all of the provisions of the 16 spec? 17 THE WITNESS: Yes. 18 BY MS. KROOPi 19 0 Was industry prohibited from commenting on any 20 portions of the spec? 21 A No. 22 Q If industry had commented on the packaging 23 provisions, would you have received those comments? RON JOHNSON REPORTERS MT-PWHD-016363 78 1 A Yes, I would see them. 2 Q Would you have reviewed them? 3 A Yes. 4 Q Would they have been reviewed and resolved in 5 your office or by you? 6 A Well, I would look over the entire set of 7 comments. If there was an area that I was not as 6 familiar with as other officers or other people, then I 9 would take it to that office or to those people and get 10 their opinion. 11 0 Who would you coordinate with on a packaging -- 12 A There was a packaging group that I thought was 13 very competent in that area, certainly much more 14 competent than I was. 15 There was no question about that, so I would 16 take it to them. 17 Q Would those comments on packaging provisions 18 go in a file with the other comments that were received 19 on the draft? 20 A Yes, it would go in as a package. It would go 21 in as all in the same folder. 22 Q These would be maintained with the spec file, 23 then? RON JOHNSON REPORTERS MT-PWHD-016364 79 1 A Yes. 2 0 To your knowledge, was there any standard or 3 specification or regulation prohibiting industry from 4 placing warnings on asbestos packages? 5 HR. ZEVKIK: Objection. Unspecific as to time. 7 MS. KROOP: I was addressing my questions to 8 between 1969 and 1972. 9 KR. ZEVKIK: That is fine. 10 THE WITNESS: Rof nothing to prohibit them. 11 BY MS. KROOP; 12 Q Are you familiar with any packaging provisions 13 in thermal insulation specs or amendments that prohibit 14 industry from putting a warning label on packages of 15 asbestos? 16 MR. ZEVKIK; I assume that is the same time 17 period. 18 MS. KROOP: Yes. I prefaced all my questions. 19 TBE WITNESS: Okay. 20 MR. ZEVKIK: It was the same question. That 21 is what led me astray. 22 TBE WITNESS: Okay. No, I know of nothing 23 that would prohibit any kind of labels. RON JOHNSON REPORTERS MT-PWHD-016365 80 1 MS. KROOPi Thank you. Do you have questions? 2 MR. MULVEYt Yes. 3 EXAMINATION BY MR. MOLVEYs 4 Q Do you remember any of the companies that sent 5 representatives to ASTM during your association? 6 A Well, again, most of the asbestos companies 7 attended -- I attended one meeting, at least, and at that 8 meeting there, industry was well represented by just 9 about all the asbestos companies, the ones I dealt with, 10 at least. 11 0 Could you, just for the record -- one thing 12 you have the appreciate, at some point in time we might 13 be reading this to the jury, Mr. Murad. 14 Could you just tell us again who those 15 companies were that you met with? 16 A That would be Owens Corning, Johns-Manville, 17 Eagle-Pitcher, E. K. Porter, I believe Raybestos 16 Manhattan, Pittsburg Corning. 19 I believe those are the ones that come to mind 20 at the moment. 21 0 Did H. K. Porter send a representative? 22 A I believe they did, to ASTM. I think they 23 were there. RON JOHNSON REPORTERS MT-PWHD-016366 81 1 0 Did ASTM develop certain standards? 2 A Their job was to come up with standardised 3 testing procedures that would be accepted throughout the 4 industry, so that there would be a uniformity in 5 determining the quality of the product. 6 0 And those standards, in addition to being 7 accepted by the industry, were they accepted by the e government? 9 A Yes, sir. 10 0 And some of the ASTM standards would find 11 their way into military specs? 12 A They could, yes. 13 Q And in fact did? 14 A I would say they were in some of the specs; 15 not necessarily all, but some of the specs. 16 0 And if an ASTM standard was in military spec 17 and the ASTM standard was revised, then the military spec 18 would be revised, is that correct? 19 A That should be the case, that is correct. 20 G This packaging group that you just referred 21 to, do you remember a Marie Dunn? 22 A Mo, I don't. 23 Q Mr. Basfcrd? RON JOENSON REPORTERS MT-PWHD-016367 82 1 A Yes. 2 Q Was be one of those individuals that you 3 referred those questions to? 4 A Yes. 5 0 And Mr. -- 6 A Anceravage. 7 0 Very good. Thank you. Any otherparticipant e in a group that you can? 9 A Al Anceravage and Frank Basford were the only 10 two in the group when I worked with them. 11 0 Are you familiar with KILL standard 129? 12 A The number seems familiar, but I can't 13 pinpoint what it has to do, what the subject is. 14 0 In terms of militaryspecifications, you have 15 spent time this afternoon talking about them. As I 16 understand it -- correct me if I am wrong. Again, it 17 might be a source of confusion on my part-- but military 18 specification might be based upon two different 19 things: One would be a requirement in 20 the sense of what a product must do, the function that it 21 must meet, the specifications. Another would be the 22 composition of the product. 23 A Yes, that is essentially correct. In other RON JOHNSON REPORTERS MT-PWHD-016368 83 1 words, categorizing the two main groups, performance 2 specification, which would describe how the item should 3 behave, and the second would be a design specification, 4 which would identify primarily the physical or perhaps 5 the chemical and physical properties of the material. 6 Q And are you familiar with KIL-I-2781? 7 A That also sounds familiar, but, again, I can't 8 seem to associate the number with the material. There 9 were quite a few that pertained to different insulation 10 materials. 11 Q The military specifications dealing with 12 thermal insulation materials were broken down into a 13 number of different subcategories, would that be correct? 14 A That is correct. 15 0 And they would all have different KILL-I 16 specification ntanbers? 17 A They would have all different numbers, that is 18 right. 19 Q Some of those specifications would be based 20 upon product content or composition and some would be 21 based upon the function that you wanted to achieve? 22 HR. ZEVNIK: I have to object, because the 23 question to me is ambiguous. When you say some of the RON JOHNSON REPORTERS MT-PWHD-016369 84 1 specifications, are you talking about some of the 2 numbered specifications or some portion of each of the 3 specifications? 4 MR. KULVEYt Some of the numbered 5 specifications. 6 BY MR. HULVEY: 7 Q Would that be true? 8 A X would say the answer to that is yes. 9 C Are you familiar with any testing that was 10 done at the University of California in the 1971, 1972 11 period under the auspices of Pittsburg Corning? 12 A Yes, there was a test being done out there. 13 Essentially, as I recall, it was to either -- addressing 14 essentially the same subject area that Dr. Selikoff 15 addressed in his work. 16 Q And that area is health hazards associated 17 with exposure to asbestos products? 18 A That is correct. 19 0 And do you know what the result of that study 20 was? 21 A To ay knowledge, it didn't -- it basically 22 came to the same conclusions that Selikoff had come to, 23 but X don't think X ever read that report or the results RON JOHNSON REPORTERS MT-PWHD-016370 65 1 of the study* but by word of mouth# I understood that 2 there was nothing new uncovered. 3 0 Do you know which individual within the 4 Department of the Navy would have had responsibility for 5 overseeing that project? 6 A Yes. That was done -- buked was closest to 7 that. That would either be Sam Barboo or one of his 8 bosses. I can't recall the name of the boss. It wasn't 9 Wands# it was some other guy. Another gentleman took 10 over and X can't think of his name. I can visualize 11 him, but I can't think of his name offhand. 12 Q In about Kay of 1969, in furtherance of the 13 so-called government elimination and substitution of 14 asbestos products program# was a letter sent out to 15 manufacturers and suppliers of insulation materials 16 advising them that the government would like input with 17 respect to their knowledge of substitutes? 18 A I don't recall a specific letter. Again# I 19 wouldn't rule it out. I can't pinpoint a specific 20 letter. 21 There was information that was given out# 22 certainly by word of mouth and at conversations or in 23 less formal meetings where a representative would come by ROR JOHNSON REPORTERS MT-PWHD-016371 86 1 and we would discuss it. 2 0 Whether it he in response to that letter or 3 any other inquiry from the government, did you receive 4 responses from the various companies concerning the 5 government's idea to eliminate or reduce the asbestos 6 content in insulation products? 7 A The meeting that I cited in the middle of 6 September of '69, there was a piece of paper --I guess 9 it was a letter -- that essentially noted procedures that 10 could be used to reduce the amount of asbestos dust while 11 working with asbestos primarily during removal or rip out 12 of asbestos from machinery or piping. 13 0 Did you have any specific contact with anybody 14 from Raybestos Manhattan concerning ycur attempt to find 15 a substitute or less percentage of asbestos content 16 insulation product? 17 A Representatives from that company came by once 18 or twice, you know, and we discussed the matter in much 19 the same way as we did or X had with several other 20 company representatives. 21 0 Were they anxious to find a substitute or did 22 they think that was feasible? 23 A It is kind of hard to read what they had in RON JOHNSON REPORTERS MT-PWHD-016372 87 1 Kind. I think everybody gave lip service to coining in 2 with lover asbestos content insulation material. 3 It is hard to judge, and it would be a 4 judgment call as to how serious they took it or how hard 5 they worked to try to in fact implement their attempt, e their stated attempts to come up with lower asbestos 7 content material. 8 0 Did any manufacturers representative indicate 9 to you that it just couldn't be done? 10 A I don't think that anybody came out and said 11 unequivocally, there might be some indication. 12 As I recall-- I am trying to think of 13 specific conversations. I believe, to the best of my 14 knowledge at this point, that there are certain caveats 15 to being able to come up with a lower asbestos content 16 high temperature insulation material that in fact was 17 seaworthy. 16 The problem by some of those companies -- not 19 all of them -- some of them said they had it, but others 20 said it was very difficult to come up with something that 21 in fact would work. 22 By would work, 1 mean provide insulation and 23 still be able to withstand the rigors of shipboard use. RON JOHNSON REPORTERS MT-PWHD-016373 88 1 0 And what you have just told us is based upon 2 what the manufacturers representatives indicated to you 3 during these discussions? 4 A That is correct. 5 0 Did any of the asbestos manufacturers 6 representatives indicate that they weren't anxious to 7 have this elimination or substitution program go forward? 8 A No. They all gave lip service to the program 9 or whatever, whatever you want to call it -- say a 10 program, an effort. They all gave it lip service that -- 11 it is essentially like motherhood, how can you argue 12 against it? 13 It is a judgment call as to whether it was 14 really seriously done. 15 Q What was your understanding in about 1969, 16 when you became involved in this project, as to the 17 health hazards associated with exposure to asbestos? 18 A My understanding was pretty much based on the 19 Selikoff view, that there seemed to be a link between the 20 two, between asbestos dust and lung cancer. 21 It was not taken as a given. It was not 22 proven unequivocally. There was certainly a good deal of 23 controversy about it. RON JOHNSON REPORTERS MT-PWHD-016374 89 1 My personal opinion was that it was serious 2 enough to try to do something about it. 3 C While you were working on the elimination 4 program or your review of any specifications, did anyone 5 from Fiberboard Corporation ever indicate to you that 6 workers in their contract in construction units were 7 developing asbestos related diseases? 8 A Fiberboard Corporation? Not that I recall, 9 no. 10 0 Did anyone from Philip Cary either verbally or 11 in writing indicate to you during that same time period 12 that a medical consultant by the name of Thomas Karcuso 13 recommended in the 1960s that warning labels should be 14 placed on their asbestos insulation products? 15 A I don't recall that at this point. Again, a 16 lot of these things, perhaps they did happen, but I can't 17 recall it right new, considering the time period. 18 Q During any of the meetings that you had with 19 Raybestos Manhattan representatives, did anyone indicate 20 to you that their workers in their factories were making 21 claims for asbestos related diseases as early as the 22 1930s? 23 A No. ROK JOHRSOR REPORTERS MT-PWHD-016375 90 1 Q And during the numerous meetings that you had 2 with Pittsburg Corning representatives -- 3 MR. FELDMAN* I object. I think that is a 4 gross mischaracterization of this witnesses' testimony. 5 MR. KULVEY: I will stand on the record. 6 BY MR. KULVEY* 7 C Were you advised at any time by those 8 representatives that Richard Gaze in 1962 advised 9 Pittsburg Corning that unprotected exposure to asbestos 10 could cause lung diseases? 11 A No, sir, not that I know. They didn't tell me 12 that. 13 Q Do you know who Mr. Farina is? 14 A Yes. 15 Q Who is he, sir? 16 A He worked in 1 believe it was Code 6105 at 17 Naval Ship Engineering Center, and that was a safety -- 16 he had a safety related job. Ship safety I believe was 19 the name of the code. 20 It had to do with something with ship safety. 21 Be worked closely with Ed Cherobrier, and certainly I 22 knew him and I talked with him, too. 23 Ed Cherobrier and Mr. Farina worked fairly RON JOHNSON REPORTERS MT-PWHD-016376 91 1 closely with each other on the asbestos problem and on 2 other problems that related to ship safety. 3 0 Did A1 Winer vork with those people, also? 4 A I would only -- I presume he did, but that was 5 after my time. 6 0 Do you ever recall a conversation during that 7 first meeting where you indicated that a number of 8 asbestos manufacturers representatives were present, 9 anyone from H. K. Porter, indicating essentially that 10 asbestos containing materials had to continue to be 11 utilized for high temperature insulation? 12 HR. WATKINS: Just for clarification, you are 13 talking about the September, *69 meeting? 14 MR. MULVEY: Yes. 15 HR. WATKINS: I object to the form. I don't 16 think he said he was sure they were there. 17 HR. KULVEY: Let's ask that questin. 18 BY MR. HDLVEY: 19 0 Do you remember H. K. Porter officials being 20 present at that - 21 A I believe they were present there. I am 22 pretty sure they were present there. As a matter of 23 fact, the more I think about it, they were. RON JOHNSON REPORTERS MT-PWHD-016377 92 1 A whether they said they had to continue to use 2 them for a time, that, I am trying to search my memory. 3 It was the general consensus that that was the case. 4 Whether B. K. Porter said it or someone else 5 or a combination, a group of manufacturers, that was 6 reflected in the fact that we took the approach of 7 reducing the amount of asbestos in high temperature 6 insulation, first, or that was the approach that we were 9 taking, to try to have the asbestos content reduced and 10 then finally have it -- the ultimately goal would be to 11 have eliminated completely. 12 0 And that approach was based upon the 13 industry's response that you couldn't eliminate it 14 immediately, but you had to try to reduce it slowly? 15 A By and large. Again, it has to be caveated by 14 saying that there are a couple ~~ some manufacturers who 17 said they had a product that was asbeetos-free and that IB could do the job and it was seaworthy, that had to be 18 tested, in my mind. 20 0 And was Mr. Cherobrier present at that first 21 meeting, September of *69? 22 A Certainly he should have been. I am not sure 23 that he was. It is possible he was on leave or for some RON JOHNSON REPORTERS MT-PWHD-016378 93 1 other reason be wasn't there. 2 I believe he was, and certainly it would have 3 been within his realm of interest. 4 0 Do you recall any other Navy person at that 5 meeting? A Kell, my boss, my second level supervisor I am 7 sure was there, Leon Birnbaum was there. 8 0 And you were asked this question partially 9 with respect to the period of 1969 to 1972, and I will 10 expand the question, and that is: Do you know of any 11 military specification or regulation that at any time 12 prohibited asbestos manufacturers or suppliers from 13 placing warnings on their packages or products concerning 14 any adverse health effects associated with them? 15 MR. ZEVKIK: I will object, since that is not 16 within the witnesses' knowledge. 17 BY HR. HOLVEYs 18 Q You may answer. 19 A Dot that I know of. 20 MR. KOLVEY: Thank you. 21 EXAMINATION BY MR. HIGBEEt 22 0 You stated you had a number of dealings with 23 NIHA in 1969 to 1972, is that right? RON JOHNSON REPORTERS MT-PWHD-016379 94 1 A There were some dealings, yes. 2 C Was it John Barnhart that you dealt with? 3 A The name sounds familiar.I believe he was 4 the secretary for NIMA. 5 Q Was he the executive director, do you think, 6 during that period of time, perhaps executive director 7 for a period of time? e A Right, probably. 9 Q Do you remember any other officials of that 10 organization that you had contact with besides Barnhart? 11 A No, I can't name any. I think he was pretty 12 much the spokesman. 13 0 So any communication that you received from 14 NIKA would most likely come through him? 15 A Yes. 16 Q Would you agree with the statement that he 17 made in 1960, that RIKA assisted in the drafting of most 18 of the military specifications for thermal insulation 19 products? 20 A 1968. 21 KR. WATKINSI Objection. 22 KR. HIGBEE: Between 1968 and 1972. 23 HR. WATKINS* I object to the foundation. RON JOHNSON REPORTERS MT-PWHD-016380 95 1 since no specs were written during that time, that he 2 knows of. 3 BY MR. BIGBEE: 4 Q Do you have any knowledge as to whether that 5 statement is true during any period of time? 6 A I would say certainly NIKA was an important 7 contributee with anything that has to with do with 8 insulation. 9 MR. WATKINS: Objection to the speculation. 10 BY MR. BIGBEE: 11 0 Your predecessor you mentioned, was that Tom 12 Pagliesse? 13 A Right. 14 Q Bis predecessor was who? Row did you 15 pronounce that fellow before him in the same job? 16 A I don't recall who that was before Tom. I 17 think I did hear the name. Let's see. Who was that? 18 I would have to search my memory. 19 C Did you take over the same physical office of 20 Tom Pagliesse? 21 A Well, it was a big bay, you know. 22 Q Did you inherit it? 23 A I stayed in the same desk I had before. RON JOHNSON REPORTERS MT-PWHD-016381 96 1 C Did you not inherit all his files and papers? 2 A Yes, I got the files, yes. 3 0 Did you progress in your job -- you had 4 occasion, did you not, from time to time, to go back 5 through the files that you inherited from him? 6 A Sure. As the situation required, yes. 7 C Looking back through those files, did you ever 8 come across any communications with any industry 9 spokesman warning the Navy of any dangers associated with 10 the use of asbestos for any period of time? 11 A Not that I recall. 12 Q You mentioned at the time of the government 13 substitution program, which started in 1969, I believe >14 MR. WATKINS; 1968. 15 BY MR. HIGBEE: 16 C that you became aware, at least in the 17 early seventies, of the study being sponsored by 18 Pittsburg Corning in California? 19 A Yes, that is right. Z am not sure if I became - 20 yes, I became aware of it I guess in the early seventies, 21 that is correct. 22 Q Did any representative of Pittsburg Corning 23 ever ask the government, your offices particularly, to RON JOHNSON REPORTERS MT-PWHD-016382 97 1 bold of on the alteration of the specifications until 2 that study was complete? 3 MR. FELDMAN: Objection, unless the question 4 is going to be answered from Mr. Murad's own personal 5 knowledge. 6 THE WITNESS: Yes, I did attend one meeting at 7 Bureau of Medicine and Surgery in which a Pittsburg 8 Corning representative did -- let's see, I am not sure 9 how he put it --* but essentially pointed out that the 10 study was ongoing and that results were coming in, but 11 that it would take a little longer than originally 12 anticipated to get the final report. 13 It was either stated or understood that that 14 therefore would be advantageous for government to hold 15 off for a little while before taking any further action, 16 at least to take into account the results of that study. 17 BY MR. HIGBEE: 18 0 Any further action - 19 A It wasn't so much directed to me, but more due 20 to the immediate community, but I was there. 21 Q Any further action with respect to that? 22 A Well, to amending any specifications or coming 23 out with any directive that would have the affect of RON JOHNSON REPORTERS MT-PWHD-016383 98 1 reducing the amount of asbestos in insulation material. 2 ' MR. BIGEEE: Thank you. That is all I have. 3 MR. WATKINS: I have a few. 4 EXAMINATION BY MR. WATKINS: 5 Q Mr. Murad, my name is Will Watkins. I will 6 try to speak up so you can hear me. 7 A Yes. 8 0 who was it from H. K. Porter that was 9 represented at NIMA? 10 A I don't know the name. I can't even remember 11 the gentleman who came by from time to time representing 12 H. K. Porter, although he did come by and I do recall, I 13 can visualize him, but I can't recall his name, to be 14 quite honest with you. 15 Q Bave you ever heard of a product called 16 Tempmat? 17 A Tempmat? It was a cloth, wasn't it? 18 Q You don't really know one way or the other? 19 A As X recall, that was an asbestos cloth. It 20 may have been the batting. It could have been the 21 batting. 22 C Do you know what it contained? 23 A Yes. RON JOHNSON REPORTERS MT-PWHD-016384 99 1 A I believe that product had asbestos in it. 2 Here again, I am trying to remember from 12 or 15 years 3 ago. 4 0 Wan that the product that H. K. Porter Company 5 brought by and showed you? 6 A It is possible, but 1 really don't know for 7 sure. 8 0 When was that product brought by? 9 A Well, the product I was referring to --and I 10 don't remember the name of it -- it may have been 11 Tempest, it may have been something else -- it was 12 brought by I'd say in about the middle of *70 to *71 time 13 frame. 14 0 Do you know what specification it was under or 15 would have been under? 16 A I think it had to do with that -- now, there 17 was a specification that described a batting material. I 18 don't think it is 466. I think that is cloth. 19 I don't remember the specific number of the 20 spec. 21 0 When this material that you were speaking of 22 was brought by, you were aware of the Selikoff study? 23 A Yes. RON JOHNSON REPORTERS MT-PWHD-016385 100 1 Q When you attended the seating in September of 2 1969 of KIMA, you mentioned the fact that the 3 manufacturers or someone prepared a paper which set out 4 ways to decrease the amount of asbestos dust in the air 5 by proper ways of handling the material? 6 A That is right. I am not sure if it was NIKA 7 per se, but certainly there were representatives of a 8 couple of manufacturers there. 9 Q Was that the first time you were aware of any 10 such regulation on the means of handling asbestos 11 material or insulation? 12 MR. KULVEY: Objection to the Word 13 regulations. 14 THE WITNESS: Okay. Well, I knew that there 15 was a team surveying shipyards that had the goal of 16 reducing the amount of asbestos dust in shipboard 17 atmospheres. 18 I didn't know what the specific 19 recommendations would be. It turned out that the results 20 of that survey and the information that was gained at 21 that September, *69 meeting with the industrial folks 22 were both used to put together that instruction, as I 23 recall, the instruction 50100.26. RON JOHNSON REPORTERS MT-PWHD-016386 101 1 Q So either NIKA or the industry or whoever it 2 was was working with government to teach or prepare 3 industry to reduce dust on shipboard insulation? 4 A We did have some input, yes. 5 Q During your time, from 1969 to 1972, did you 6 ever make contact with any naval shipyard concerning 7 asbestos elimination or asbestos installation and its 8 health hazards? 9 A Yes. I visited three or four shipyards to 10 determine how well they were complying with that 11 instruction, 50100.26. 12 C I believe to a prior question --and, 13 certainly, correct me if I am wrong -- you stated that 14 when you were amending a specification, one of the early 15 processes would be you would prepare the amendment and 16 Mr. Birnbaum, I believe, would sign the amended spec, 17 which was sent out to all interested entities? 18 A Yes. I did say that. I have been thinking 19 about that. That would be one way of doing it, 20 certainly. Whether you could get by some other way to 21 get the coordination that was needed, I think we had 22 other ways o doing it, too. 23 You could just carry around -- when you say RON JOHNSON REPORTERS MT-PWHD-016387 102 1 the amended 6pec, it would be e proposed amendment. 2 0 Proposed? 3 A Yes. You could just carry it around to the 4 various parties involved. If it vent outside the Navy, 5 Naval Ship Engineering Center, then there should be a 6 letter, and I would say Birnbaum would be the one to sign 7 that out. 8 0 That information, again, would also go to 9 shipyards? 10 A Yes. If it went outside the headquarters -- 11 veil, at that time. Naval Ship Engineering Center. 12 Another possible signatory could be the specification 13 office, you know, the one that Jean Harmon headed up. 14 So it is possible that it went out under 15 6124's signature. 16 Q if a comment came in from industry, did your 17 office have the option to -- and I think I understood 18 this right -- to incorporate, resolve or reject the 19 comment? 20 A Nell, the comments were categorized into two 21 areas. One was essential comments, the other was 22 nonessential. 23 For the nonessential, ve could arbitrarily RON JOHNSON REPORTERS MT-PWHD-016388 103 1 discount them, but we rarely did. Out of courtesy, ve 2 would address the issue with the commentor. 3 For the essential comment, ve were required to 4 address the issue and resolve it, either Incorporate it 5 as it was stated or discuss the matter with the office 6 that supplied the comment and resolve it by coming to 7 some compromise or convincing the person who submitted e the comment to withdraw the comment; but it had to be 9 addressed and we had to document how it was handled. 10 C The product that you spoke about that was sent 11 to you by H. K. Porter, did you all reject that product? 12 A Kell, that wasn't :-- there wasn't a 13 specification amendment written to it. 14 As I recall, I gave it that quick test. I 15 didn't mean to try to belittle it, because it was a good 16 effort, but it just was too dusty. 17 I pointed that out to the rep and he said, 16 well, yeah, it does seem to be some dust there. I can't 19 recall the specific words, but, to the best of my 20 recollection at this point, I got the impression that he 21 would take it back to his company and ask them to improve 22 on it. 23 That is basically it. RON JOHNSON REPORTERS MT-PWHD-016389 104 1 Q That ic resolving the problem. Kas that the 2 type of resolving - 3 A That vas not a written comment. That was a 4 sample that was brought in on their own initiative, 5 brought it in and said this is a material that has, as I recall, a lower asbestos content. 7 It wasn*t completely asbestos-free. It was a 8 lower asbestos content material. It was supposed to be 9 suitable for shipboard use. 10 One of the factors involved would be, of 11 course, to determine just how much dust would be given 12 off to the atmosphere, the immediate atmosphere, when it 13 was subjected to the shock and vibration of the ship. 14 Of course, that is why I shook it hard and 15 threw it against the wall, to try to simulate, as best I 16 could -- we didn't have -- we didn't have a testing 17 laboratory, so someone brings something in and you give 18 it what I consider a choke point test. 19 You give it a quick test that you can do 20 sitting in an office or wherever, just to find out what 21 some of the major features are. 22 C What other mineral or material was in that 23 piece? RON JOHNSON REPORTERS MT-PWHD-016390 105 1 A That, I don't know. I presume there was some 2 fiberglass in there. 3 Q You didn't make a determination of the mineral 4 content of that dust? 5 A No, no. I had no test capability whatsoever. 6 I had a desk and that is it. It is like sitting here at 7 the table trying to determine what the nature is in that e water. 9 You look at it, you smell it, take a little 10 sip. If you think it is suitable, you drink it. 11 MR. WATKINS; That is all the question I have 12 for you. Thank you. 13 HR. ZEVNIKt I have a few more. 14 EXAMINATION BY MR. ZEVNIK: 15 Q This September, 1969 meeting, that was here in 16 Washington? 17 A Yes, it was. 18 0 And this was at or under the auspices of the 19 Navy ? 20 A Yes. It was in the Navy office, that is 21 correct. 22 0 In Crystal City -- Crystal City probably 23 wasn't there then. RON JOHNSON REPORTERS MT-PWHD-016391 106 1 A No. We were at Hyattevllle at that point. 2 Q At the Hyatteville Center in Prince Georges 3 County? 4 A Yes. 5 Q Do you recall if any notes were taken or 6 minutes were taken of the September, 1969 meeting? 7 A My recollection, there were no notes taken. I e didn't take any notes, I know that. If someone else did 9 or not, I don't know. I don't think so. 10 I don't think there were any that was 11 published. Kaybe some of the people there had taken some 12 of their personal notes and put it in their file. 13 0 Do you recall who else from the Hyattsville 14 Center was there? 15 A I know Leon Birnbaum was there. Probably Ed 16 Cherobrier was there. I am not sure if Tom Pagliesse was 17 there or not. 18 I think he was in a new job at the time. 19 C In your capacity as head of codings and 20 materials from 1969 to *72, I think you stated that you 21 received from time to time defficiency reports from the 22 Navy shipyards, is that right? 23 A That is correct. RON JOHNSON REPOPTERS MT-PWHD-016392 107 1 Q What would the nature of these deficiency 2 reports be? 3 A Kell -- 4 C Let me rephrase that. 5 A Sure. 6 0 Was there a specific Navy fora that these 7 deficiency reports came in on? 8 A Yes, this is a form. As I recall, it is on 9 the back pages of a specification, but they were -- no 10 one was held or required to use it. They could use it. 11 They could use a letter. They could just call the 12 information in by phone, 13 0 If there was a form that was used, do you 14 recall the number, the Navy number for that form? 15 A Ho. 16 0 Was it a printedform? 17 A It was,basically, as I recall, almost 18 entirely a plain sheet of paper with a couple of 19 questions that were required --* I shouldn't say required, 20 but you could answer a few questions that were posed. 21 As I recall, as I mentioned, it was the last 22 page or so of a specification. 23 Q Do you know who in the navy shipyards would RON JOHNSON REPORTERS MT-PWHD-016393 108 1 have completed these defficiency reports? 2 A Normally, it woul,d have been completed by Shop 3 56. It vas the shop that installed insulation on board 4 ships. 5 C And these deficiency reports would point out 6 problems that you had with insulation materials, is that 7 right? 8 A Yes, that would be the nature of it, right. 9 Q Or defects in the materials, is that correct? 10 A That was the intent, that is correct. 11 0 Do you ever recall receiving a deficiency 12 report stating that there was a problem with asbestos in 13 the insulation materials being used by the Navy? 14 A I don't recall them. I might say we didn't 15 get too much deficiency reports. There were a few. 16 MR. SEVNIK: Thank you. 17 MR. FELDMAN: I have just a couple of 18 questions, if I may. 19 EXAMINATION BY MR. FELDMAN: 20 Q I believe in response to a question, you 21 indicated during the time that you worked in the codings 22 unit you would rely upon technical data received from 23 industry with respect to the procedure that a RON JOBNSON REPORTERS MT-PWHD-016394 109 1 specification night otherwise be amended, is that 2 correct? 3 A Yes. We would get comments from industry, 4 that is correct. 5 Q Was industry the sole source of technical data 6 that you would have received at the tine? 7 A I won*t say it was necessarily the sole 8 source. I would say they were certainly an important 9 source. 10 Q Would you have received technical date from 11 ultimate users? 12 A Yes. They were asked to comment. 13 0 Would this technical data have been received 14 from governmental agencies? 15 MS. KROOP: This was asked and answered. 16 MR. FELDKAN: I don't believe so. 17 THE WITNESS: We would certainly circulate it 18 to all interested parties, including other government 19 agencies, primarily other military, and ask for comments. 20 MR. FELDMAN: I have no further questions. 21 MS. KROOP: I have a few further questions. 22 EXAMINATION BY MS. KROOP: 23 Q You were talking about essential and RON JOHNSON REPORTERS MT-PWHD-016395 110 1 nonessential comments before, Who labeled comments as 2 essential and noneseential? 3 A The person who submitted the comment. 4 0 So industry comments would be labeled by 5 industry as essential or nonessential? A That is correct. 7 0 And then when you reviewed comments, did you 8 have to report about your review you do to a supervisor? 9 A Well, we would put together what amounted to a 10 folder or package that would identify all the incoming 11 comments and the resolution or whatever happened to them, 12 and it would be -- it would certainly go through our 13 supervisors and on up to the specification office. 14 0 Was that the SpecificationControl Board? IS A Ultimately, it would go to them, but it goes 16 through Code 6124, or whatever that code really is. 17 As I recall, it is 6124. 18 Q you were answerable toreport your treatment 19 of comments to your supervisors at the Control Board, is 20 that correct? 21 A Sure. 22 Q Let me just ask you one more question, again, 23 addressing the 1969 to 1972 period. If the asbestos RON JOHNSON REPORTERS MT-PWHD-016396 111 1 industry had come to you with an asbestos-free or low 2 asbestos material that had met the Navy's need for 3 thermal insulation and performed as well as an asbestos 4 product, would the Navy have amended the specs to permit 5 the use of that material? 6 MR. 2EVNIK: I object* There is no foundation 7 for that. 8 KS. KROOP: I am asking for this witnesses' 9 knowledge. 10 MR. ZEVKIK: it calls for speculation and I 11 object. It is a hypothetical question. 12 BY MS. KROOP: 13 0 Do you want me to repeat the question? 14 A Maybe you better. 15 MR. KULVEYt Bow about reading it. 16 MS. KROOP: would you have it read back. I 17 have a second part to that question, too. Read the 16 question back. 19 (Thereupon, the following question was 20 read back by the court reporter: 21 QUESTION: Let me just ask you 22 one more question, again, 23 addressing the 1969 to 1972 RON JOHNSON REPORTERS MT-PWHD-016397 112 1 period. If the asbestos industry 2 had come to you with an 3 asbestos-free or low asbestos 4 . 5 material that had met the Navy's ' .^ - need for thermal insulation and performed as well as an asbestos 7 product# would the Navy have 8 amended the specs to permit the 9 use of that material7} 10 THE WITNESS* I would say yes, provided that 11 there was some confidence that the claims were in fact 12 the case. 13 BY MS. KROOP: 14 0 Where would that confidence come from? 15 A It would have to come from industry. We would 16 have to see some test reports. We had no other source of 17 testing. IB Q With regard to the same question, would the 19 Navy have required the use of that material instead of 20 asbestos materials? 21 A Probably, I would say, sure. 22 MS. KROOP: Thank you. 23 MR. ZEVNIK: I want to take a five-minute RON JOHNSON REPORTERS MT-PWHD-016398 113 1 break, if I could. I say want some sore questions. 2 (Thereupon, there was a recess taken, 3 after which the following proceedings 4 were had:) 5 MR. ZEVRIK: I don't have any further 6 questions. 7 (Thereupon, at 5:00 o'clock, p.s., e the taking of the deposition was 9 concluded.) 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 RON JOHNSON REPORTERS MT-PWHD-016399 114 1 AFFIDAVIT OF DEPONENT 2 I have read the foregoing , . , . pages, which 3 contain a correct transcript of the answers made by me 4 to the questions therein recorded. 5 6 7 8 Henry G, Murad 9 10 Subscribed and sworn to before me this 11 day of , 1984, in ____________________________ 12 13 14 15 16 17 Notary Public in and for the State of Virginia at Large 18 My Commission Expires: 19 ,. 19 ________________________ . 20 21 22 23 PON JOHNSON REPORTERS MT-PWHD-016400 115 1 CERTIFICATE OF NOTARY PUBLIC 2 3 I, Raney Siegel, the officer before whom the 4 foregoing deposition was taken, do hereby certify that 5 the witness whose testimony appears in the foregoing 6 deposition was duly sworn by me; that the testimony of 7 said witness was taken by me in shorthand and there 8 after reduced to typewriting under my supervision; 9 that said deposition is a true record of the testimony 10 given by said witness; that I am neither counsel for, 11 related to, nor employed by any of the parties to the 12 action in which thi6 deposition was taken, and further 13 that I am not a relative or employee of any attorney 14 or counsel employed by the parties thereto, nor 15 financially or otherwise interested in the outcome of 16 the action. 17 18 Nancy Siegel, Notary Public for the 19 State of Virginia at Large 20 My Commission Expires: 21 July 13, 1986 22 23 RON JOHNSON REPORTERS MT-PWHD-016401