Document aDVEpGM8bJrEJqxNXQ9yjjey9

'-ornputer-Aided Transcription DISTRICT COURT IN AND FOR TULSA COUNTYSTATE OF OKLAHOMA LANNIS SMITH, et al. , r Plaintiffs, vs. PUBLIC SERVICE COMPANY OF OKLAHOMA, et al., Defendants. ) ) )" ) ) Cause No. CJ-84-07 0 01 ) ) ) ) ) Deposition Of WILLIAM B. PAPAGEORGE, P.E. On behalf of PLAINTIFFS MAY 18, 1990 WALLER REPORTING, INC. 515 Olive Street, Suite 1506 St. Louis, Missouri 63101 (314) 621-2571 WALLER REPORTING, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000051882 ~ * '------ v-. iittiioU i. p C, 1 O U DISTRICT COURT IN AND FOR TULSA COUNTY STATE OF OKLAHOMA LANNIS SMITH, et al., Plaintiffs, vs. PUBLIC SERVICE COMPANY OF OKLAHOMA, et al., Defendants. ) ) ) ) ) ) ) ) ) . ' ) Cause No-.-CJ-84- DEPOSITION OF WILLIAM B. PAPAGEORGE, P.E., produced, sworn and examined on behalf of the PLAINTIFFS, MAY 18, 1990, between the hours of eight o'clock in the forenoon and five o'clock in the afternoon of that day, at the Adams Mark Hotel, 4th and Chestnut, St. Louis, MO 63102 , before CATHERINE WINKELER, a Certified court Reporter and a Notary Public within and for the State of Missouri. APPEARANCES The Plaintiff was represented by Mr. J. Michael Busch, 14 S. Water Street, Sapulpa, Oklahoma 74066. The Defendant Monsanto and the witness were represented by Mr. David L. Thomas of the law firm of Crowe & Dunlevy, 1800 Mid-Aroerica Tower, Oklahoma City, Oklahoma 73102. The Defendant Monsanto and the witness were represented by Mr. Anton Rupert of the law firm of-Crowe Dunlevy, 1800 Mid-America Tower, Oklahoma City, Oklahoma 73102. & The Defendant Westinghouse Electric was represented by Ms. Deirdre O. Dexter of the law firm of Conner & Winters, 2400 First National Tower, Tulsa, Oklahoma 74103 . WALLER REPORTING, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000051883 The Defendant PSO was represented by Mr. G. Michael Lewis of the law firm of Doerner, Stuart, Saunders, Daniel & Anderson, 1000 Atlas Life Building, Tulsa, Oklahoma 74103 . The Defendant I.T. Corporation was represented by Mr. John Tucker of the law firm of Tucker & Gable, "2800 Fourth National Bank Building, 20th Floor, Tulsa, Oklahoma, 74119. - WALLER REPORTING, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000051884 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 IT IS HEREBY STIPULATED AND AGREED by and between Counsel for the Plaintiff and Counsel for the Defendant, that this deposition may be taken in shorthand by CATHERINE WINRELER, a Certified Court Reporter and Notary Public, and afterwards transcribed into typewriting and signed by the witness. o-O-o WILLIAM B. PAPAGEORGE, P.E., of lawful age, being produced, sworn and examined on the part of the Plaintiff, deposes and says: ' DIRECT EXAMINATION QUESTIONS BY MR. BUSCH: Q. Would you please state your name for the record? A. William B. Papageorge. Q. Is that Mr. or Dr. Papageorge? A . Mr . Q. Michael and John, can you hear me okay? MR. LEWIS: I can hear you. Q. (By Mr. Busch) What is your current employment or occupation? A. Currently, I am self-employed. Q. What type of work do you do beinc^ WALLER REPORTING, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000051885 Mr. Busch 4 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 self-employed? A. Engineering consulting. Q. Now, you understand I'm here representing the Plaintiff's, Coney Island Hot Dog Wieners, Inc., vs Monsanto, Westinghouse, I.T. Corporation and 'Public Service Company of Oklahoma. If I ask you any questions that you don't understand or are not clear please tell me and I'll rephrase them, and we will try to get some kind of understanding. Do you understand that? A. I do. Q. Are you on any drugs or alcohol today that might affect your thinking? A . I'm no t. Q. If I ask you any questions that you don't understand, will you ask me to rephrase those? A. I will . Q. Could you tell us about youreducational background? A. . I received a Bachelor of Science degree in Chemical Engineering in 1943 from Washington University, St. Louis, Missouri. A Master of Science degree in Chemical Engineering from the same university in 1947. And I also have credits in Chemical Engineering courses aimed at a Doctor of Science or a Ph.D. degree from Oklahoma State. At that time, Oklahoma A & M. WALLER REPORTING, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000051886 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q. How many credits do you have from Oklahoma A & M? A. I believe about 12 hours. That may not be exactbutit'sclosetothat. Q. How many hours,were required to complete that doctorial degree? A. As I remember, it was 18 plus a thesis. Q. Did you do any work on the thesis itself? A. No, I left Oklahoma before I could do that. Q. Have you taken any continuing education classes since the courses you took at OSU? A. Yes, I took a course at Washington University. It was an advanced business administration course. I don't recall its formal title, name. This was in the early 1960's. That is the only course I recall that is associated -- I did that refresher course in engineering, and again the early 1960's which led to my taking the necessary tests for registration as a professional engineer in the State of Missouri. I then took a series of courses with the American Management Association in New York City. These were primarily business management type topics. Q. When did you take those business management courses ? A. Those were the period 1966 to 1968. Sometime WALLER REPORTING, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000051887 Mr. Busch 6 1 1 in that period. 2 Q. When did you take the courses required to get 3 your professional 4 A . As best I recall, it was 1963. 1962 or 19'63. 5 Q. What did those courses entail.? 6 A. They were primarily aimed at chemistry, 7 mathematics, engineering courses. Predominently chemistry 8 engineering in my case. I think that covers it. 9 Q. What is involved in chemical engineering as 10 opposed to civil engineering, or engineering in general? 11 A. Chemical engineering is centered more to 12 chemical properties of materials. Such as their flow 13 , their , their abilities to react 14 with other chemicals. Whether they are volatile or not. 15 The physical and chemical properties of matter. And we 16 use those properties to conduct processes such as 17 separating of liquid from a gas, or combining chemical to 18 make a new chemical. Some chemical engineering addresses 19 that kind of situation. I don't profess to know an awful 20 lot about the other engineering disciplines, but as I 21 understand it, they are primarily interested in the .firm 22 statistics of say concrete and steel. And how they can be 23 used to achieve some sort of desired end point, a bridge 24 or a road, or an engine. 25 Q. How does chemical engineering difTer from WALLER REPORTING, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000051888 nl . ouscn 7 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 chemistry, a degree in chemistry? * A. It builds on the knowledge obtained in chemistry. Help design the physical facilities required to carry out chemical reactions on a large scale as - distinguished from a laboratory bench. .. Q. Have you taken any other courses, seminars, since leaving OSU? A. I have attended numerous seminars. So many that I frankly can't recall too many specifically. They were depending on work assignment at the time. I would attend seminars that related to the assignment. I have attended seminars, for example, labor relations when I had the responsibility for negotiating with unions. I have attended seminars later on back to some technical matters when I was a superviosr of engineering. I attended numerous when I was involved with environmental matters. These were involved with approaches to clean air and waste discharging, and depositing of solid waste in landfills and the like. Q. Dealing specifically with the environmental seminars, do you recall the environmental seminars that you attended after 1965? A. After 1965, I don't profess to recall all of them. They are all so similar. They blend in my memory. ~ I remember a seminar conducted by the Environmental WALLER REPORTING, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000051889 duscd 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Protection Agency. I'm going to call it a seminar. I don't know if it's the proper term, on PCB's in the environment in Chicago in 1975. I remember subsequent to that, a seminar in the Los Angeles area put on by The Environment Consultants. That may not be their official name. It's a company that puts on seminars on various topics. And this particular topic had to do with RCRA. The Resource Conservation and Recovery Act. I know there were other seminars per se that I had attended, but the topics and location and timing just -- I don't recall. Q. Now, I want to go into your employment history. Outside of the throwing newspapers and flipping hamburgers, what was your first real meaningful job? A. Does military service count as a job? Q. That is a separate category. We will get to that a little bit later. A. My first meaningful job as I'm going to call this, my employment by Phillips Petroleum Company, Bartelsvi1les, Oklahoma, 1947 to 1951. Q. What did you do for Phillips? A. There were two different types of activities. Initially for the first two years of that four year period, I was involved with drilling mud research. And secondary, recovery in oil fields. This last two years, I was involved with designing or making the necessary WALLER REPORTING, INC. ' WATER PCB-SD0000051890 ni . Duscn 1 mathematical calculations to design equipment for. 2 separating the different components in petroleum. 3 Q. And you left Phillips in 1951? 4 A. Yes. - 5 Q. Why did you leSve Phillips? _ 6 A. I suppose I was looking for greener pastures. 7 I don't know of any other reason other than that. 8 Q. Where did you go after you left Phillips 9 Petroleum? 10 A. I joined Monsanto Company in St. Louis. At 11 one of their plants in St. Louis. 12 Q. What was your first job with Monsanto? 13 A. It was a design engineer, I believe was the 14 title. Designing equipment for use in manufacturing of 15 chemicals . 16 Q. Before we get into the Monsanto, you said you 17 were talking about military service. Did you serve in the 18 military? 19 A. Yes, I did. 20 Q. Which branchwas that? 21 A. The army. 22 Q. How long were you in or what years were you 23 in service? 24 A. I don't know the official starting date. I 25 was put into active service while still completing my WALLER REPORTING, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000051891 i'ii . Duscn 10 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 S 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 schooling. I believe that started about 1942, 1943'. And then I was discharged in 1946. Q. Did you see any combat? A. A little bit, yes . Q. Which theater were you in? A. Pacific, Philippines. _ Q. military? What kind of job did you have in the A . It varied. Initially, I was in the anti-aircraft. I was then transferred to infantry. And during the occupation in Japan, I was transferred into the Corp of Engineers. Q. What kind of discharge did you receive? A . Honorable discharge. Q. Let's go back to Monsanto Company. You said you started off as a design engineer, designing equipment for the chemical manufacturing process; is that correct? A . Correct. Q. How long did you have that particular job? A. About two to three years. Q. recall? A. What type of equipment did you design, do you Yes, this was distillation equipment. Q. What was that distillation equipment used -what chemicals was it used to manufacture? WALLER REPORTING, INC. * WATER PCB-SD0000051892 11 1 A. Phthalicanhydride. '~ 2 Q. What is that chemical used for? 3 A. It is used primarily in plastics. Either as 4 an ingredient in the plastic itself, or as a component in 5 the further manufacturing of a plasticizer, which is added 6 to plastics to make things flexible, pliable. 7 Q . After your design engineering position, what 8 position did you move to next? 9 A. I became a production supervisor in one of 10 the production units at that same plant. 11 Q. What chemicals were you producing? 12 A. Plasticizers. 13 Q. How long did you have that position? 14 A. A year or two. 15 Q. What position did you have next? 16 A. I was then supervisor of another production 17 unit at the same plant. 18 Q. And what did that production unit produce? 19 A. It produced nitro chlorobenzenes. 20 Q. What are nitro chlorobenzenes used for? 21 A. They are used to make rubber, chemical 22 additives for rubber. They are used to make 23 disinfectants. Those are the primary uses. 24 Q. Were they used in Phisohex, do you recall? - 25 A. What is the word again? WALLER REPORTING, INC WATER PCB-SD0000051893 i'i 1 . DUbCfl 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q. Phisohex? -~ A. I'm not familiar with the active ingredient in Phisohex. Q. That was a product that Monsanto put out, decontamination soap used in medical scrub rooms. A. I have never heard of that one. Q. What job did you have after you were the production supervisor for the nitro chlorobenzenes? A. I was made a supervisor in the maintenance department, the same plant. Q. What were you in charge of maintaining? A. That assignment was primarily not one of maintaining as it was of supervising small projects in the plant. For example, adding a pump in the system. Replacing a small tank with a little bit bigger tank. Jobs that could be done by plant personnel as distinguished from calling in an outside contractor to complete. Q. Did you do any maintenance work to maintain your own equipment? A. Not during that assignment, no. Q. How long were you in that position? A. About a year or two. Q. And what job did you go to next? A. I was made a superintendent of tlje WALLER REPORTING, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000051894 D U 5i'l L . 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 maintenance department. Q. What does a superintendent of the maintenance department do? A. I was responsible for the total maintenance function at that plant. Which meant something like a dozen supervisors and maybe twice as many foremen. And I don't remember, about 300 or so mechanics, maintenance !personnel. ! Q. In that job you were responsible for maintaining the plant equipment? A. Yes. Q. And which particular plant was this that you were the supervisor or superintendent? A. John F. Queeny Plant, St. Louis. Q. Did they have transformers at that facility? A. Yes. Q. Were they owned by Monsanto? A. Yes. Q. You were responsible for the maintenance of those transformer? . A. Yes. Q. How long were you in that position? A. Two or three years. Q. What type of maintenance program did you have------ for your transformer, if you had one? WALLER REPORTING, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000051895 Mr. Busch 14 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A. We had a program. I don't recall all of the specifics, but I do know that the electricians were assigned to take a walking tour of the plant, to make visual observations of these units. See if there were any leaks developing, or any flaws that they coul-d see by eye. There were provisions in the program for collecting samples of the liquid in the unit to see if it still met the proper specs, so it would do the job properly. There was a program that included observing the level of liquid in these units to see if it needed topping off, which was done by the plant personnel. And they would also, of course, this is not part of any program so much as if a unit was not performing properly, it would be replaced by a spare unit. Taken out of service and be replaced. Q. During what years were you the superintendent of the plant safety, or the excuse me, superintendent of maintenance? A. I believe as best I recall, it was 1960 to - 19 maybe '59, '60 to 1962 or 1963. Q. Okay. Let me go back to this program that you had for your transformer. How often would you send your electricians around to visually inspect the transformer? A. As I recall, about once a month, to make this walk through. , WALLER REPORTING, INC. " WATER PCB-SD0000051896 15'-i o 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q. And what would they do when they did.that' visual inspection? What were they instructed to do? A. They were instructed to report back to their foreman their findings. Found such and such a transformer with a drip, or I found one'with a pretty steady leak, whatever they observed. And the foreman would then put that on his schedule for assigning the proper number of people to go take care of it. Q. Okay. I don't think my question was clear. What were they looking for when they were out to inspect these transformer? A. Anything that was visible, apparent, such as leaks. That was the most common observation. Sometimes they would, as I recall, sometimes some of the circulating fans on some of these units, they would observe a fan or two may not be functioning. Or maybe the propellers may be turning, but the fan was not oscillating. This kind of observation they would report that, and have the fan replaced or repaired. There aren't too many -- sometimes they would report back that in their opinion, excessive dust had built up on the unit, because of the powdered product that is made next door. This would affect the performance of the unit. So, they report things like that. Q. Now, the next thing you talked ab-aut was WALLER REPORTING, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000051897 i-ii . cusen 16 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 taking samples to test to see if the fluid was functioning properly. Am I phrasing that correctly? A. See that it met specifications to assure properfunction. Q. How often would you send electricians around to do that? A. I just don't remember the -- as best I recall, about once a year. It wasn't often, about once a y ear. Q. What would you do with the samples once they were taken? A. They would be sent to the laboratory. The plant had a chemical laboratory. And the laboratory would test for -- primarily it's what they call the dialectric constant. To see that it was not conducting electricity unnecessarily so. They would also test for its chlorine content. See if there is any free chlorine in it which would indicate signs of deteriation. They would also report on its color. The darker the color, the indication would be that it is deteriorating. Q. Kind of like motor oil in your car? A. Somewhat, yes. Those are the primary things they looked for. Q. Do you know how the dialectric capacity of - the oil was tested? WALLER REPORTING, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000051898 Mr. Busch 17 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A. I can tell you the principles involved. They have an instrument through which they pass electric current. And they measure the resistance through that body of liquid between what is called two wires emersed in the liquid. From that, they can back calculate as to what is the conductivity of that liquid. Q. Okay. Do you know what that instrument looks like? Can you describe that, or did you ever see it, or performed, or - A. I have seen it. It looks like a box that is about double a shoe box size. And it has some dials on it and a needle that indicates current. I don't know what the inner working parts look like. I didn't look at that. Q. If somebody were to want to test the dialectric capacity of a fluid, how would they go about using thisbox with the dials, and - A. I recall -- there are many ways to do this. But the one I saw, they would put the liquid in a container. Generally it was a beaker, glass beaker, and insert the electrodes a given distance apart and turn on the electricity and watch the needle. And it reached some point on a scale. And take that scale reading and go through the necessary mathamatics to convert it back to a number that is referred to as the dialectric constant for that material at the temperature it was measured. WALLER REPORTING, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000051899 Mr. Busch 18 1 Q. Why was it important to know what the ~ 2 dialectric constant for that fluid is? 3 A. If the dialectric constant is at the proper 4 magnitude, the liquid is not conducting electricity 5 through it, which is the way it is intended to operate. 6 The liquid is only there to serve as a cooling medium to 7 take the heat generated on the internals of the 8 transformer and by natural currents created by the 9 differences in heat. Carry this heat out to the outer 10 walls of the transformer where it is air cooked and cooled 11 and the heat is discipated. If the liquid has 12 deteriorated and again conducting electricity, the 13 situation deteriorates further to the point where you 14 get -- and I'm no expert on transformers, but this is my 15 understanding. You get to the point where electricity 16 carries across between the components within the 17 transformer which it shouldn't do. And then I am 18 understanding that you get internal arcing. Like 19 lightening bolts through the liquid which further 20 deteriorates the liquid to the point eventually where the 21 transformer is not doing its job any longer, it must be 22 replaced. And the whole intent and purpose here is to 23 avoid total deteriation by making certain the liquid meets 24 the right specs. 25 Q. Now, I realize you ' re not an electrical WALLER REPORTING, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000051900 Mr. Busch 19 1 engineer but a chemical engineer. But this lightening 2 bolt that is going through this oil, would that have a 3 temperature to it? 4 A . Certainly. " 5 MR. LEWIS: Would you say tha.t ag-ain Mike? 6 Q. (By Mr. Busch) I said, thelightening bolt 7 that was going through the fluid, would that have a 8 I temperature to it. And his response was, I believe, 9 certainly; is that correct? 10 A. Yes. 11 MR. LEWIS: The witness is going to have to 12 speak up. A lot of what he is saying is getting drowned 13 out by the rain on John Tucker's window. 14 Q. (By Mr. Busch) We will try and speak a 15 little louder for you. Do you know approximately what 16 that temperature might be? 17 A. I have no idea. 18 Q, Would it have been hot? 19 A. Well, that is kind of subjective. What is 20 very hot to you may be different to me. 21 Q. Would you want to be exposed to those 22 temperatures? 23 A. Certainly not. 24 Q. So it would be say, over a hundred degrees 25 Celsius possibly? , WALLER REPORTING, INC. " WATER PCB-SD0000051901 1 A . Oh, yes. Yes . 2 Q. Can you give me a ballpark range of what 3 those temperatures might be? 4 A. Your guess is as good as mine. - 5 Q. Just trying to-.explore your knowledge here. 6 Would it be safer to say, that this lightening bolt going 7 through the fluid, would warm-up the fluid, the dialectric 8 fluid in the transformer if it is allowed to continue? 9 A. Certainly, but the liquid is being warmed up 10 as the unit is in service. So, it's just an increase in 11 warming. 12 Q. So it is like turning the heat up on the 13 grill? 14 A. I suppose you could look at it that way, yes. 15 Q. Now, you're talking about the chlorine 16 contents was another thing that you tested for. Why was 17 it important to test for the chlorine contents ? 18 A. Well, the ingredients in most transformer 19 fluids contain chlorine chemically combined, when the - 20 when these liquids are under a stress, such as high 21 temperatures, or they are exposed to some unknown 22 contaminates, it is possible for the chlorine to separate 23 from the original chemical. And exists either as combined 24 with hydrogen, hydrogen chloride as a gas, or it can be _ 25 free chlorine. The presence of either one of those WALLER REPORTING, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000051902 z 1 indicates that the liquid is no longer as pure as.it- w-as 2 when originally put into the transformer. 3 Q. Would the presence of chlorine, besides 4 indicating that it is no longer as pure as it originally 5 was when placed in the transformer indicate a diminished 6 capacity for that dialectric fluid to do its job? 7 A. It would indicate a diminishing capacity. 8 The unit will continue to function or the fluid will 9 continue to function well until that level of hydrogen 10 chloride, or chlorine reach some point that I am not 11 familiar with. Once it exceeds that point, then the 12 adverse effect is noticed. 13 Q. Now, you said there is an adverse effect that 14 would be noticed. What is this adverse effect that you're 15 talking about? 16 A. The liquid is beginning to conduct 17 18 Q. The lightening bolts going through the fluid? 19 A. Maybe. On the other hand it may be a case of 20 where the transformer is no longer delivering the voltage 21 it was designed to deliver. It's receiving the given 22 amount, but it's not putting out the desired amount. 23 Q. Now, the next thing that you talked about was 24 the color. What should this fluid look like? ___ 25 A. Would you help me with the word "should it WALLER REPORTING, INC. < WATER PCB-SD0000051903 Mr. Busch 22 1 look like"? 2 Q. When it is -- that's a good question. When 3 it is first placed in the transformer, what color is this 4 fluid? 5 A. I can't speak for the appearance., of the fluid 6 back at the transformer manufacturer's plant. I can only 7 speak for the appearance of the fluid as it left Monsanto, 8 when it leaves Monsanto, the general appearance of 9 transformer fluid is anywhere from clear as drinking water 10 to a slight yellowish tinge. 11 Q. The slight yellowish tinge, would it be fair 12 to say it looks like a clear yellowish hydraulic fluid? 13 A. I don't know what you mean by hydraulic 14 fluid. I have seen some kinds -- I have seen clear, water 15 clear hydrochloric fluid, and I have seen some the color 16 of your Coca-Cola there. 17 Q. Would you say it is lighter or darker than 18 iced tea? 19 A. Lighter than most ice teas that I have seen. 20 Q. Can you see through it for a certain 21 distance? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. It is not perfectly clear, but it has some 24 discoloration, a little bit lighter than iced tea? 25 A. I would saysomewhat lighter, nof'-just a WALLER REPORTING, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000051904 UOCU 23 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 little bit. There is a perceivable difference in-the 'two colors . Q. Now, when you're checking for the color for something that is out of line, does it get clearer or does it get darker? A. It gets darker. And in some instances it gets turbid, murky. Q- Like it has particles in it? A . Yes, well something is causing the murkiness, more likely it is particles. Q. the fluid? Do you know what causes that discoloration of A. I don't know specifically what causes it. All it does to me, it reflects that chemically the liquid is changing. Brought about by conditions unknown to me. Temperature and chemical reaction and the like. Q. Okay. When you would find some adverse or abnormal finding, either the dialectric fluid didn't have the proper constant, or the color had changed, or there is excess chlorine or hydrochloric gas in there, what would you then do as the maintenance superintendent, or what would you have your people do? A . This called for a judgement on the part of the f oreman, assisted by his supervisor, the electrical ----- supervisor. And if necessary, the laboratory.-Bight get WALLER REPORTING, INC. ^ WATER PCB-SD0000051905 FJ r . DUSCtl 24 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 involved. The condition may be such that just topping off with some virgin unused material could bring the unit up to some acceptable performance. Not the unit, but the liquid would meet the minimum. Or it may require a total drainage and refill. This is a judgement call on the part of those who were right on the firing line regarding what to do about the unit. And it would vary from situation to situation. Q. As most things do. What sort of factors would go into deciding or making that judgment call? A. Of course, the degree of noted degradation, how badly is it. The performance of the unit. How it has I been performing lately. Is it putting out the voltage that it is designed to do, or if not, is the voltage producing exceptable for the needs of that particular system. Experience also comes to play where the supervisor and foreman know from previous experiences that certain conditions noted could lead to problems months from now, and we might as well plan to take care of it \ before the anticipated self-imposed deadline is reached. So it is condition of the oil, the performance of the unit in your experience on the part of the supervisor and foreman. Q. And you talked about the self-imposed deadline. What is that self-imposed deadline? WALLER REPORTING, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000051906 Mr. Busch 25 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 S 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A. This is again based on experience. From previous experience, these conditions led us to shut down on a holiday at midnight, and we want to avoid that situation. So let's plan to get the necessary replacement fluid or call in a service company, and schedule to shut down this operation or install a standby transformer to take over the duties of the current, one while we work on the existing unit. So in other words, to do all of this |planning, you impose on your schedule and your planning a deadline which you try to reach. I would like to get all of this accomplish by this time. That's the self-imposed deadline. Q. That is to avoid an equipment failure? A. An equipment failure that occurs at inopportune times. Q. Now, you were doing this during 19 -- the early 60's, 1961, 1962, 1963? A. Yes. Q. At that time, what dialectric fluid were you using in the Monsanto transformer at that particular plant? A. I don't remember the specific ones. It wouldn't surprise me if we did use Westinghouse fluids and/or Westinghouse specified fluids and General Electric specified fluids, plus some hundred percent PCB fluids, WALLER REPORTING, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000051907 ci O 1 Monsanto product. .- 2 Q. Now, digress just for a moment. You're 3 talking about the Westinghouse fluids and the General 4 Electric specified fluids. Were those fluids that were. 5 designed by Westinghouse or'.'-General Electric for use in 6 one of their particular transformers? 7 A. They were fluids designed by the two 8 companies mentioned for use in their equipment and 9 competitor's equipment. 10 Q. Do you know what the chemical contents of 11 those fluids were? 12 A. I used to know. I don't recall all of the 13 ingredients we would get from General Electric and 14 Westinghouse and other companies. What I'm going to call 15 a recipe that called for the ingredients and the amounts 16 of each ingredient that went into the mixture which they 17 would define by their trademark. 18 Q. Do you recall what some of the ingredients 19 were for these -- let me back up just one moment. How 20 many different GE or Westinghouse specified fluids were 21 there ? 22 A. I just don't remember, there were many. And 23 some were replaced by different mixtures as the years went 24 on. I don't remember the number, but it would not 25 surprise me if there weren't say a dozen Westinghouse WALLER REPORTING, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000051908 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 recipes, and about a dozen General Electric. Each with its own designation. Q. Were there any ingredients that were consistent throughout all those recipes? - A. Yes. '' Q. What were those? A. There were PCB ' s, and chlorinated benzenes, were the two dominant ones used. Q. What were some of the sub-ingredients, if you recall those? A. I don't recall them by their chemical names. I do recall an acronym PPO, and the others escape me. But these were minor amounts of ingredients added to the mixture to scavage, to pick up this chlorine that I mentioned earlier, that might have been forming in the unit as it is in service. That is primarily it. It is PCB's, plus chlorinated benzenes, plus the scavager. Q. And the scavager would go out and pick up these free chlorine molecules that might be floating around? . A. Yes. Q. They would go outside there and chemically combine and turn it into some inert or less harmful product, or chemical, is that a fair statement? - A. I don't know about the harmful. WALLER REPORTING, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000051909 t-1 b 1 Q. Harmful as in harmful to the operation of 2 that particular piece of equipment? 3 A . Right. 4 Q. Now, you said the two primary ingredients- are 5 PCB's and dichlorinal -- _ 6 A. Chlorinated benzenes. 7 Q. Would dichlorinal benzenes be a subcatagory 8 of chlorinated benzenes? 9 A. I 10 purpose. It could be. It was not used for this 11 Q. Do you know what sort of ratio there would be 12 between the PCB's and the chlorinated benzenes? 13 A. It would vary. From as best I recall, as 14 high as 70 percent PCB's down to about 55 percent PCB's. 15 And the rest of that fluid would be predominantly tri and 16 tetra chlorinal benzenes. However, there were some 17 transformer fluids that were 100 percent PCB's. 18 Q. Okay. Now, we have been talking about PCB's. 19 What are PCB's? 20 A. PCB's are a family of chemicals made up of a 21 chemical combination of carbon, hydrogen and chlorine. I 22 don't quite know how to describe this orally. 23 Q. If it would help you I'll hand you a piece of 24 paper and we can make it an exhibit to this deposition. ----- 25 A. I will show on this diagram the siemist ' s WALLER REPORTING, INC. ' WATER PCB-SD0000051910 Mr. Busch 29 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 graphic designation for benzenes, which is the hexagon. And each corner of the hexagon represents the location of a carbon. Q. Okay. A. And for benzenes, each of carbon's has a hydrogen connected to it. So there are six carbons and hydrogens. Q. Could you draw those in for us? A. I'll do that. I'm showing the carbons. And attached to each of those is a hydrogen. And this is graphically used by the chemist to designate benzene. Under heat and pressure, the two benzenes combine were there is -- there are two carbons associated with each other to form a double ring as shown here and as they do so, one of hydrogen, the two hydrogens are released and leave the process and are used elsewhere. That chemical is called biphenyl. Q. Would it be fair to say, that those two rings that you have drawn, each one of .those rings is called a phenyl ring? A. Yes, phenyl is another expression to Jesignates benzene ring phenyl. And two of them, of rourse, are biphenyls. When that biphenyl is now exposed :o chlorine, which is the gas used to disinfect water or swimming pools, the hydrogens associated with the carbons WALLER REPORTING, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000051911 Mr . Busch 30 1 are displaced. And the chlorine then attaches itself 2 where the hydrogen used to be in a random fashion. 3 Anywhere from one chlorine for this biphenyl group up to 4 10. One chlorine to 10 chlorines. There are, as I ~5 remember, 209 members of that PCB family, varying by not 6 only the number of chlorines from mono, to di, to tri, to 7 tetra, and so on. But also the position of those 8 chlorines with respect to each other. The individuals we 9 chemically separated and isolated are at room temperature 10 crystals, white crystals. But the mixtures which were 11 produced commercially for industrial use were liquids. 12 Q. How is that made possible? 13 A. There is an interaction, a physical 14 interaction that occurs. And I'm not capable of 15 describing it. But the presence of these members of the 16 family in a -- under high temperature would melt the 17 crystal and form the liquid. Once that liquid cools down 18 again to room temperature, the crystals do not separate 19 out. The mixture stays as a liquid at a lower 20 temperature. It's a -- depending on the amount of 21 chlorine present, that liquid is either about the 22 consistency of water, or it can be the consistency of cold 23 molasses. Very viscous. 24 Q. Okay. Now, would the viscosity, that deals 25 with the thickness of the fluid; is that correct? WALLER REPORTING, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000051912 i> u J v Jl 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A. Yes . .~ Q. The more viscous something is, is it more fluid or is it more or is it thicker? A. The more viscous in lay terms it would be thicker. Q. Now, does it take more chlorine or less chlorine to make it more viscous? A. More chlorine makes it more viscous. Q. The more chlorine we add to it the thicker the soup gets? A. Correct. Q. Now, you're talking about mono, di, tri, forms of these biphenyls. Do you ever use numbers to designate, do they have any significance when you're describing these molecules? A. Numbers are used, yes. Q. What are those numbers used for? A. To communicate. I don't know how to answer your question. Q. If somebody were to say like a two, three, seven, eight, tetra chlorinal biphenyl, what would that be describing? A. That would be describing the position of the chlorine on these biphenyl molecules. Starting with -- Q. If you could draw another ring to-describe WALLER REPORTING, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000051913 i'l i. . O U 13 C ii 32 1 those numbered positions? - '' 2 A. I will try. 3 Q. And if you need another piece of paper, just 4 holler. u 5 A. All right. The numbering system goes from 6 one to six, on the left part of this diagram. And seven 7 to ten on the right part of this biphenyl diagram. 8 Starting with the two carbons, are nose to nose, so to 9 speak. There is position one, two, three, four, five. 10 I'm going to mess this up somehow. I'mnot real positive 11 on that, but this is the essenceof the numbering system. 12 So when you hear a number mentioned, referring to a 13 specific PCB, that number designates the location of the 14 chlorine on this biphenyl molecule with respect to the 15 other chlorines. 16 Q. So in an PCB, you're always going to have 17 hydrogens carbons and chlorines; isthat correct? 18 A. That is correct. 19 Q. But you're talking about the family of 20 chemicals having 200'and how many different - 21 A. As I remember, 209 different members of the 22 f amily. 23 Q. So 209 different families vary according to 24 the number of chlorines that are attached to the phenyl 25 rings, and by the location of these chlorines .-at t ached to WALLER REPORTING, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000051914 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 the phenyl rings? A. That is correct. Q. That is kind of likedifferent combinations on a padlock, basically the same thing, but each padlock is a little bit different? A. Okay.All right. Q. Now, we have described PCB*s a little bit here. I kind of got digressed here, when we were going through your job descriptions of where you were ! superintendent of plants maintenance, what job did you have after that? A. I was a general superintendent in the plant engineering department. Q. Okay. What were your job duties in that position? A. Supervising the activities of engineers and technicians. Working on engineering problems associated with a given group of production units in the plant. Q. What type of problems would you be confronted with? A. Problems such as we wished to increase the capacity of the unit, what will it take? Bigger pump, bigger tank, bigger pipeline or better instruments, or better training maybe. Whatever it took. Or it might be a case of, we have a tank here that is corroding rapidly WALLER REPORTING, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000051915 nr. busch 34 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 on us. We need better material. What do you suggest? Should we go to aluminum, stainless steel or plastic. It might be a case of we wish to try and produce a new chemical in small quantity. Initially which of the - existing equipment can be used to make this new chemical. Or it could be that for reasons unknown, the production unit can no longer produce as many pounds as it used to. What happened. So I would send out engineers to evaluate the problem. Or it might be also a case of we are making the pounds, but this product is dirty. It's coming up gray instead of white. What is causing my problem. Q. How long were you in that position? A. Couple of years. Q. What position did you move onto after that? A. I then became a general superintendent of - it had a multiple title; warehousing, distribution, utilities. I'm certain that is not the exact title. But it involved those functions that the plant -- that supported the manufacturing function. Such assets of raw materials, shipping out the finished product and providing the electricity and the water, garbage pick up. Anything that helped the ongoing operations. Q. Which plant were you general superintendent of -- would it be fair to say support of production? A. That was still the same, John F .--Queeny j WALLER REPORTING, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000051916 Mr. Busch 35 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 plant. ` Q. How long were you in that position? A. A couple of years. Q. About what time frame are we talking about now? ' .- A. We have now reached about -- let me think, 1964. Early 1964. Q. What job did you go to after this support, general superintendent of support? A. I then was assigned as general superintendent of manufacturing at Monsanto's plant in Sauget, Illinois. Q. And what did that plant manufacture? A. It manufactured several hundred chemicals. I don't propose to remember all of them. Q. No, I don't think that is necessary. Thank you for keeping it short. How long were you at that particular plant? A. About a year, year and a half. Q. What were your duties at that particular job? A. I managed -- I was one of several general superintendents of manufacturing. I was assigned a given set of products. And I was responsible to produce them at the right quality, the right amounts, at the right time, at the right costs. Q. Okay. And you were in that position for WALLER REPORTING, INC. s! WATER PCB-SD0000051917 Mr. Busch 36 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 about a year? ' A. About a year, year and a half. Q. What job did you go to next? A. I was then made plant manager of the Monsanto plant at Anniston, Alabama.' .,, Q. What did that plant manufacture? A. We manufactured PCB's, biphenyls, phosphorus, Pentasulfide. Q. Just out of curiosity, what is that last chemical used for? ! A. That is used as a starting material for plasticizers, and pesticides. Those are the two principal applications. We also made a pesticide at the plant. Two of them for cotton bowl weavels. Parathion and metaparathion. We made chlorine, hydrochloric acid. That is all I can recall at the moment. Q. How do you make chlorine? I always thought back in my high school days in chemistry, that chlorine was an element that just occurs. A. It is not quite that easy. We make chlorine by taking salt water, and introducing electrodes and putting electricity through the salt water. And chlorine pulls off of one of the electrodes and that is captured. And that is the chlorine you see in cylinders and tank cars, and so you used commercially and domes tire a 1 ly. WALLER REPORTING, INC. ^ WATER PCB-SD0000051918 Mr. Busch 37 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q. So you're actually breaking down a mdre complex compound being the salt water into its elements? A. Well, into one element, the chlorine. The sodium in the salt is made into sodium hydroxide, which-is caustic. . .. Q. What is sodium hydroxide used for? A. It's used for making some, for example, you have seen it as flasks of lye perhaps in a hardware store for drain unblocking and so on. It's used in the ingredient in some of the drain cleaners. Q. Like Drano? A. Like Drano. It has a very, very wide use in the industry for conducting chemical reactions for neutralizing acids and so on. Q. Is it true when you take that caustic material and you mix it with an acid, you end up with salt water again? A. Yes. Well, I don't want to mislead you. You end up with a salt. If the acid has chlorine in it, it will be like the salt we started with. If it has sulfuric acid in it, it will be a different type of salt. It would be sodium sulphate. Q. Salts are another family of chemicals? A. Correct. Q. How long were you plant manager , what is WALLER REPORTING, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000051919 O 1 the name of the town ? 2 A. A-n-n-i-s-t-o-n. From 1965 to the end of 3 1969 . 4 Q. What job did you take in 1969? - 5 A. I was appointed manager of environment 6 control located in the headquarters of Monsanto in St 7 Louis. 8 Q. What were your duties in that position? 9 A. I was to coordinate primary information and 10 as a side line some of the activities relating to the, 11 then the evolving PCB environmental issue. 12 Q. Did you have any other duties in that 13 position besides dealing with the PCB problem? 14 A. Not at that time. 15 Q- How long were you in that position? 16 A . The responsibilities relating to PCB's, 17 lasted until early 1976. The title that I had changed 18 during that period of time from manager of environment 19 control, to manager of environment protection, to manager 20 of product acceptability. Starting in about 1973, I in 21 addition to the PCB's, I was assigned other products 22 manufactured by Monsanto, and managed by this particular 23 group that I was assigned to. 24 Q. How many employees were there in this ___ 25 particular group? WALLER REPORTING, INC. * WATER PCB-SD0000051920 Mr. Busch 39 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A. Which group is that? ' Q. This group that you were manager of environment controls, you're saying that is the group that you were assigned to? " A. Oh, I don't profess to know the total number. It included the business director, and his managers of research manufacturing, marketing. And then in addition to that, the research manager had many chemists and technicians reporting to him. I don't know how many. They would change according to need. The marketing organization included field representative, area manager, district office manager, secretary and the like. That whole group, plus personnel, must have exceeded 500 people. Q. So Monsanto thought this was a fairly significant problem to devote 500 people to it? A. I'm sorry, I misunderstood you. This is not only -- PCB's was one little product in this total business group. . Q. Okay. I'm sorry if I misunderstood you. As the manager, were you in charge of just PCB's in a bigger network or a bigger organization? A. That is correct. Q. How many people were in your PCB group? A. I was the only individual concerned with WALLER REPORTING, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000051921 i>ir . busch 40 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 PCB's -- that is not quite correct. I was concerned 'with the management of the PCB information. How it was disseminated within Monsanto and to its customers. And to the adversities, and to the public, and to the government. Assisting me within that business group were other individuals that addressed PCB's in very specific terms. An example, the research person, would have as I recall, about three people, as a minimum looking at PCB's in terms of do they degrade or not. Is there a substitute that can be used. Is there a better way to make them so they don't contaminate the environment. The manufacturing man also looked at ways to improve the manufacturing process, to avoid loss at the vent stack, or down the sewer, or at the waste dump. That does not mean that the manufacturing manager only had PCB's on his mind. He had one hundred other chemicals. PCB's were part of it. The sales marketing people, there were at least three individuals that concentrated totally on PCB's. But the rest of the marketing staff would address PCB's as part of a bigger assignment, along with other products. Q. What was that bigger assignment? A. They would sell other chemicals in addition to the PCB type chemicals. I don't know how to describe it. It may include a list of 50 chemicals that he ~ represented as he made his calls, PCB's being-ene of them. WALLER REPORTING, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000051922 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q. Now, you said -- did your title change -from 1969 to 1976 you said, did your responsibilities change during that period of time? A . With respect to PCB's? Q. No, with respect to your job duties? A. As I explained initially, it was I addressed my time totally to PCB's until 1973. I was then given additional products to follow. Some of them were innocuous and some could be environmental problems. But I was given a broader assignment. (Whereupon, a short recess was taken.) Q. Back onto the record. You dealt with PCB's exclusively until 1973, and then they added additional chemicals to your responsibilities? A. Yes. Q. Okay. What additional chemicals did they add? First let me ask you, how many additional chemicals did they add approximately? A. I don't know that I ever counted the total number. Q. Are you talking about a manageable number that we can talk about or is it several hundred? A. It's closer to 50. Q. Do they breakdown into any groups? - A. It's really -- WALLER REPORTING, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000051923 1 Q. I think 50 chemicals, are we all going to.-get 2 a little tired here. 3 A. I don't know how to talk about it in terms of 4 groups. They were referred to within Monsanto as the ,, 5 functional fluids type as well as the paper chemicals 6 category. Roughly 25 specific industrial chemicals for 7 each of those two groups. 8 Q. So these would be -- the PCB's would be in 9 the functional fluid group? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. What would be an example of paper 12 manufacturing chemicals? 13 A. There was a chemical that Monsanto sold, that 14 was called sodium pentachlorophenate, which I understand 15 was used in the paper industry for bacteria control in 16 essence, in their pulp processing plants. A chemical 17 associated with that was pentachlorophenol, which you may IS be familiar with as the material used to preserve wood. 19 Telephone posts for example are treated to prevent the 20 posts from deteriorating rapidly. Those are just two 21 samples of the kinds of chemicals in that group. 22 Q. What caused the chemical to be put over in 23 your group, for you to take control of the dessemination 24 of the information about these chemicals? 25 A. The group I was assigned to from the very WALLER REPORTING, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000051924 4j 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 beginning sold many chemicals. PCB got the attention" initially for about two or three years, because it is important to so many parts of our society. And once Monsanto felt that it was fairly well under control in terms of information, dissemination and the like, my supervisor felt that I wasn't able to take on additional responsibilities. Because the telephone didn't ring as often, I didn't have to make quite as many trips and the like, so time became available. So in in other words, they just gave me more to do to fill in that time. Q. I think you told me about why you were given more chemicals, but how did a chemical happen to come in under your jurisdiction? A. It was part of the responsibilities of the group that I was assigned to.The business group which Sid the research, the manufacturing, the marketing. Q. Okay. But why would a chemical be assigned to you particularly; you were manager of environmental controls? A. Yes. Q. To me that implies you're in charge of how that chemical interacts in the environment. Would that be jart of the information you would desseminate? A. Yes. -- Q. Now, I might be assuming wrong, IjjJt was very WALLER REPORTING, INC WATER PCB-SD0000051925 Mr. Busch 44 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 chemical manufactured by Monsanto assigned to a manager of environment control? A. Eventually, yes. Q. When did this process begin? A. Well, it began of course with my" initial assignment, and the managers of Monsanto perceived that to be a wise approach regarding all of its products. And eventually, other managers of environment protection, and later we were all called managers of product acceptability were appointed to cover the many product groups within Monsanto. So I would suggest from the period 1970 when 1 was first appointed the PCB's until about to this day, there are people assigned to monitor and manage the environment impact of Monsanto's products. Q. But in 1970, when you started in on PCB's, the only chemical manufactured by Monsanto that had this particular type of specialist assigned to it was PCB's; is that correct? A. In the specific way that is correct. But there were other people in Monsanto who are responsible :or products that were regulated by federal departments, rhey didn't have this title, but they had the esponsibi1ities that were similar. Such as the igriculture products that are registered under the Jepartment of Agriculture and later by EPA. The products WALLER REPORTING, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000051926 Mr. Busch 45 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 that went into food that are regulated by the Food and Drug Administration. Some chemicals that are monitered by the Department of Agriculture. So those products had individuals in Monsanto that were involved. The ' difference when it comes --chemicals like PC-B ' s that - this now begins to cover industrial chemicals which was something new at the time. Q. Okay. So, let me go back over it. PCB ' s were the only non-regulated chemical that had an information specialist assigned to it, or an environmental control specialist assigned to it? A. That is correct. Q. Why did Monsanto decide to assign an environmental control specialist to that particular chemical as opposed to one or the other couple hundred that they manufactured? A. There were several reasons. One, is that PCB's were being discovered at a fairly rapid rate by many laboratories to be present in environmental type samples. The types of samples that were being reported were to Monsanto's people surprising. We just could not, knowing what we knew about the use of PCB's, we could not relate the presence of PCB's in some of the samples with the industrial uses that we knew PCB's were being applied to. Another internal situation was the situation wKere PCB's WALLER REPORTING, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000051927 w x. o w i i. 46 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 S 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 were marketed by two groups in Monsanto. One, was the" functional fluids group we talked about. And the other was the plasticizers group. That particular use involved its use in paints and lacquers, and plastic and carbonless copy paper and the like. And it was important -- it was perceived to be important within Monsanto, the two groups ought to incorporate their efforts. The best way to do that is to have one person bridge that gap and let the left hand know what the right is doing, and saying, and to help manage this more responsibly. Q. Okay. So at the time you took over this other position, what was the uses of PCB's? A. The principle use was as an insulating fluid in electrical equipment. Or more properly, as an ingredient in many insulating fluids in electrical equipment. It was an ingredient in industrial hydraulic fluids. It was used as a heat transfer medium. It was used in high speed turbins as a lubricant. It was used in paints, lacquers, caulking and sealants. Some floor tiles had it in it. The carbonless copy paper had PCB's as an ingredient. It was also used in some special rubber products to make the rubber more pliable, flexible. I believe that covers the areas of use. Q. Okay. Now, in terms of the total volume of ----PCB's that were manufactured in say the year 1^76, what WALLER REPORTING, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000051928 i'J 1 . DUSCii / 1 percentage of those PCB ' s would have been used for ' ' 2 electrical power equipment? I think you said that the 3 majority was used that way. 4 A. I would suggest that it was close to 50 - 5 percent. ' _ 6 Q. What was the next largest percentage and what 7 was that used? 8 A. If I recall correctly, the next largest use 9 was in industrial hydraulic fluids, followed very closely 10 by heat transfer applications. 11 Q. Now, those last two applications, what 12 percentage of that total production would go to those two 13 others ? 14 A. I am guessing a little bit here. It's 15 somewhere in the order of 20 percent. 16 Q. Now, I think you were describing your duties 17 in this position of manager of environmental control. You 18 were in charge of dessemination of information. Were you 19 in charge of any other responsibilities while you were in 20 that position? 21 A . No . 22 Q. Were you in charge of gathering information 23 together to be desseminated, or was the information 24 already in one spot for you to hand out? - 25 A. There are examples of both. WheR.I initially WALLER REPORTING, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000051929 i'l i. . DU&Cfl 48 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 entered the assignment, there was information that already accumulated through the years prior to my arrival in St. Louis. As time went on, I made it a point to keep abreast of new adoptments by working very closely with the proper people within Monsanto as well as outside, to get that information flowing to my desk, in hopes that something important would not go unnoticed. And it was my duty to make a decision regarding this new and relevant information. If so, who should hear about it and in what form. What format, under what conditions. Q. Now you're talking about keeping in touch with the relevant people within Monsanto and people outside of Monsanto. Who did you keep in touch with outside of the company? A. I can describe them by categories, I suppose. Representatives of State and Federal regulatory agencies. Representatives of governmental laboratories. Representatives of universities that were conducting studies. I was even in touch with representatives of groups that had concern with the environment. Such as the Audubon Society. The Wild Life Group and the lassie 4alton League. And the Garden Clubs of Michigan and a variety of people. Q. You talked about governmental labs. What - governmental labs did you keep in touch with? WALLER REPORTING, INC . WATER PCB-SD0000051930 Mr. Busch 49 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A. There was the -- well, let me start with the East Coast. The FDA laboratory, which monitered food for presence of PCB ' s. The water laboratory in Athens Georgia. The water laboratory in Duluth, Minnesota. The Fish and Pesticide laboratory in Columbia-, Missouri. The Commercial Fisheries laboratory in Gulf Breeze, Florida. The water laboratory in Corvallis, Oregon. I can't recall any others. Q. Okay. What agencies of the Federal l Government did you keep in contact with? A. The Food and Drug Administration. The Department of Agriculture. Department of Commerce. Department of Interior. Department of Defense. The Counsel in Environmental Quality. The Office of Science and Technology. The EPA eventually when they got organized, EPA, OSHA, Occupational Safety and Health Administration, and NIOSH. I believe that covers it. Q. What is NIOSH? A. That is the National Institute of Occupational Safety and Health, which is the technical group that studies work place health situations. Some of it in the area of chemical exposure. Q. And you said EPA when they finally got together? A. Yes . . WALLER REPORTING, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000051931 Mr. Busch 50 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q. Was EPA in existence when you first took over your position? A. EPA was in existence on paper. They had been approved and they were in the process of recruiting staff and people, and finding offices and the like." About the first six months of 1970, it was very difficult to find people who could speak for PDA. I'm sorry, for EPA. It was only in the later part of 1970, that individuals within EPA were assigned PCB' s to the point where I could start a dialogue with them, and get to know them better. Q. Now, when you started in the later part of 1970, when individuals were assigned PCB's and you had dialogues going on, from your experience, what were their assignments at EPA? What did those concern with regard to PCB's? A. Their initial assignments were not very specific. It was primarily oriented to pollutants in tfater systems. And it then became a focus. Their focus cf attention centered on PCB's as a toxic pollutant to be Bspecially regulated for presence in water waste. Q. When did that transformation take place? A. It was gradual and occurred during 1970. And df course, continued on in subsequent years. Q. I think -- were there any other duties that rou had as the manager in environmental controls for WALLER REPORTING, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000051932 i - A. U U. ii 51 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Monsanto that we haven't talked about? *~ A. We haven't talked about my duties regarding relationships with customers, and my duties relating to producers of PCB's. t Q. Okay. What relationship did you have with customers? A. I think the primary one was my responsibility to make certain that all the information Monsanto had, that was thoroughly evaluated and considered to be relevant and validatable, was good data, would be passed quickly onto the customers of Monsanto that used PCB products. I did this primarily through the marketing people, who were the primary contact with the customer. I also did it in a secondary fashion by making myself available to groups of representatives of customers. I also participated in, and managed to get in a few plant trips where I could go to customers' plants and review the status of PCB's in the environment with them. I made myself available over the telephone, or through mail, in the event any, not only customers, but anybody had any questions relating to PCB's, they could contact me. And I would make it a point to contact the right people to get the more highly technical data. Like the medical director, or the research director, or whatever was - appropriate. WALLER REPORTING, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000051933 L'l J. . DUbCll 52 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q. Okay. Now when you're talking aboutthe ~ information being -- I don't recall the exact terms you used, being verifiable is that -- how did you go about determining the quality of the information you're passing out? You seem to imply in your answer that you are handing out good quality, clear, no questions about it information? A. That was of course the intent. Because of the popularity of the subject, there were many, many reports that would arrive at Monsanto. Some of which were not truthful. And we had to be very careful that indeed it was a valid fact that should be transmitted. The validity of this information we would run by any in-house experts that Monsanto had. If it was a medical problem, that would be to the medical director and his staff. I would never pose as a medical expert and wait for his evaluation. Or if it is a chemical research kind of information, I would run that by the research director. If Monsanto did not have the in-house expertise, I'd make certain we got an outsider to help us. Of course, this again would be done through the right people. If it's a medical problem, the medical director would find the toxicologist, or a laboratory, or whatever was appropriate to evaluate. That is really the general way we had of verifying. There were activities such as verifying WALLER REPORTING, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000051934 3 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 analytical results that Monsanto had its expertise. We would request a sample of the material and in many cases we were able to get a sample. We would run it through our inventory and compare notes with the outside laboratory, that reported it initially.'/ We try to work very closely. If the results we were identifying are virtually so, we felt that we validated it. It was a valid comment. Sometimes the data would just be in our opinion, erroneous. And we would challenge it, and try to help the laboratory's analyst and the outside laboratory, redo his work and see if he could come up with another answer. Those are just some examples of how we tried to validate. Q. Now, you're going to have to help me out on this, because I was a social science manager in college. Is it what you just described to me the sort of constant testing that information in a scientific community is put under to make sure that the current theories and hypotheticals and laws are valid, that constant microscopic or evaluation of information is out there? A. Yes. . Q. Is there a name for that? A. If there is, I'm not aware of it. It just becomes aware of life. This is the way it is done. Q. I am going to use a term of art here. This .. is to make sure that that information you are 4}an(3ing out WALLER REPORTING, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000051935 Mr. Busch 54 1 is free from any serious or substantial error? ' 2 A. The intent is to avoid error because 3 transmitting erroneous information is irresponsible, and 4 we didn't want to be in that position. " 5 Q. You want to make sure there was no doubt 6 about its correctness? 7 A. As best as you could. That doesn't mean we 8 succeeded all the time, but we certainly strived for it. 9 Q. So would it be fair to say, at some point in 10 time if you disseminate information, at that point in 11 time, you believed that there was no doubt as to its 12 correctness or its free from error? 13 A. As free as is realistically practical on the 14 state of the science, or the art available at the time. 15 Q. You said you got to go on plant trips. What 16 were some of the different plants that you visited that 17 you recall? 18 A. I visited primarily electrical equipment 19 manufacturer plants, capacitor plants and transformer 20 plants. I don't know what else to say, it is primarily 21 that. And also visited a few metal die casting shops. I 22 also visited a few heat transfer applications. 23 Q. What would you do when you went on one of 24 these plant visits? 25 A. Normally, I would ask for an audience of key WALLER REPORTING, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000051936 Mr. Busch 55 1 people at the plant in a conference room. And I insisted 2 in every case I got the presence of the top man at the 3 plant, the plant manager. I would open up the discussion 4 with a status report on what Monsanto knew about PCB's.5 And in many cases, I had to go back to very basics. How 6 they are manufactured, what kinds there are, where are 7 they used. 8 Q. A lot of what we have done right here today? 9 A. Very much so. And then go into reports we 10 were getting from government labs, government agencies, 11 universities, foreign producers. Where ever the 12 information came from we would divulge that. And then we 13 would talk about Monsanto's experiences in terms of 14 controlling losses at its plants. Pointing out to them 15 they may or may not be able to take our approach, 16 Monsanto's approach and apply it to theirs. Because we 17 don't know everything in their plant so we could not be in 18 a position of specifically telling them how to do it. But 19 to give them some ideas that they could explore. We 20 shared with them our ideas -- not our ideas, our status 21 reports on the animal testing that Monsanto was 22 sponsoring. We would share with them our analytical data, 23 and our analytical method in those customers who had 24 laboratories. We would leave with them copies of the 25 analytical procedures, and names of people in -'Monsanto WALLER REPORTING, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000051937 nr . cuscri 56 1 they could call for a dialogue. A comparing of notes "as 2 they went through this. And I tried as best I could to 3 emphasize on them the need to keep the material from 4 entering the environment as best they could. Recognizing 5 all along that I couldn't guarantee every molecule. But 6 the idea was to control it in such a way that if any got 7 away from them, the environment could eventually cope with 8 it without any permanent effects. That was the end point. 9 Q. When these plant trips began, I believe they 10 began in late May or June of 1970. And went on through 11 the summer, into the fall of 1970, primarily. And then 12 there were support visits during 1971, 1972. During all 13 these visits, did you stress the importance to try and 14 maintain control over the PCB's, so that they would not be 15 released into the environment to the best of their 16 ability? 17 A. That was the main purpose of the visits, yes. 18 Q. How strongly was that message conveyed? 19 A. As strong as I could make it. I would look 20 into the plant manager's eyes as I talked. And of course, 21 they didn't like to hear a lot of this. It meant higher 22 cost for them. But that was the real world we were living 23 in, and I would remind them that they were telling me they 24 had no substitute material. They had to have the PCB's. 25 And I told them that if it's that important to- you and to WALLER REPORTING, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000051938 1 society, we then have an obligation to handle it 'prope-rly. 2 Otherwise, it will be taken away from us. That was the 3 gist of the conversation. 4 Q. Okay. Did you -- in 197 0 ' s on, what was -the 5 general state of the art in'terms of controlling discharge 6 of PCB's? 7 A. Are you asking for state of the art in actual 8 practice or in availability? 9 Q. No. Let's start off with -- let's start off 10 with actual practice, and then we will talk about what was 11 available. 12 A. In actual practice, I found examples at both 13 extremes. Frankly, there were those that had no method of 14 control, based on the, by then misconception. But 15 earlier, it was perceived to be innocuous material, 16 harmless so the disposal methods were rather loose. Just 17 flush it down the sewer with soap and water, and it won't 18 do any harm. On the other extreme where some of them by 19 1970 had already implimented programs and had projections, 20 and were spending money to capture leaks and spills, and 21 treat their waste water before they discharged to it the 22 public systems. So to summarize, there were extremes of 23 both good and bad here. 24 Q. You were talking about desseminating __ 25 information about animal studies that Monsanto had WALLER REPORTING, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000051939 wi. Duscn 58 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 sponsored. Who did those animal studies for Monsanto?' A. The long term feeding studies; rats, dogs and chickens, were conducted by Industrial Biotest Laboratories in Northbrook, Illinois. - Q. Was that the ofily subcontractor that did that type of work for Monsanto? A. For Monsanto, yes. | Q. Were there any other animal studies being conducted at the time -- or in the general time frame as the Monsanto studies? A. Not to my knowledge. Q. When did these animal studies begin? A. The preliminary work as I best recall, started at late 1968. And this was -- these were studies conducted to establish what the long term feeding dosage should be. And also establishes or helps to establish the number of animals tested and the number of doses of the different chemicals and the like. The long term feeding studies per se, were started in middle, about the middle of 1969. Q. How long did those studies go on for? A. They are the traditional two year study for the rat. The dog was an 18 month study. And the chicken I believe, it varied. But I think it took about a year and a half total. This is the time the animals were WALLER REPORTING, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000051940 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 exposed. It took several months after that before all_the analysis were made and the reports published. So it takes about three years total from start to report. Q. So you had dogs and chickens? A. Dogs, chickens^and rats. Q. Rat. Why did you test three different animals? A. Well, the rat is the traditional animal used for such testing. But as I understand it, there is a difference between the rat and other mammals. There is always the problem of extrapolating rat data onto human data. But then as I understand it, the rat, as an example, it cannot vomit. It keeps the chemical in its digestive system, so they went to the dog as an example of an animal that can vomit objectionable materials. See what difference there is in the results there. That's the reason the dog was picked, as I understood. The chicken was an attempt to duplicate theresults that were being reported recording the pelicans of California. And the peregrine falcons out of the university and the laboratories in Maryland with wild birds. The intent initially was to find wild ducks and conduct the study. But wild ducks hatch only at a specific time of the year and we missed that opportunity. And didn't want to lose another year and waiting and getting enough eggs with wild WALLER REPORTING, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000051941 DU 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 ducks, so we settled for the leghorn chicken which was- the traditional animal used by the Food and Drug Administration for poultry. That's how the animals are picked. - Q. Do you know whether the rat is the traditional animal used in these testing procedures? A. No, I don't. Q. Do you know if there is any similarity between the system, organ system in a rat and those of a person ? A. Or human? I am led to believe that there are some similarities. And yet caution must be made in drawing conclusions. Q. Obviously, a rat is not a person, but in 1976, you said that you left your position as the manager of environmental control which had changed its name. What position did you go to at that point in time? A. I didn't leave the position so much as Monsanto under went a reorganization. PCB's as a product stayed with the functional fluids group, and it was moved over into a part of an operating part of Monsanto. I was in turn transferred to another part. PCB's had no involvement in this other part of Monsanto. I initially attempted to keep PCB's as one of my responsibilities and-- address the totally new assignment here with either WALLER REPORTING, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000051942 i'il . Duscn 61 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 chemical products. And it became rather difficult because I had two supervisors. Each one wanted my total devotion to my job and time commitment. And it was decided to put PCB's back with the other functional fluids products and take it away from me. And this was eventually done in February. Q. Of 1976? A. 1976. The reorganization took place in September of 1975. So I kept PCB's for an additional four or five months. Q. What was your new job assignment after PCB ' s were taken away from you? A. It was still manager of product acceptability, which was the new title for chemicals that Monsanto called intermediate chemicals. These are industrial chemicals used by chemical companies to make another chemical. Q. How long did you stay in that position? A. I had that assignment until about September of 1976, I think. Q. What did you do after that? A. I am hesitating, because I don't know if it is 1976 or 1977. Right after that, I was made director of environmental operations for one of the operating units in--" Monsanto. WALLER REPORTING, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000051943 O <0 1 Q. Which operating unit was that? ~ 2 A. This is the intermediate chemicals company 3 Monsanto -- I'm sorry, industrial, intermediate chemical 4 company, yes. - 5 Q. What changes did you have in your job from 6 the one you previously had to this new position? 7 A. I was now responsible for the supervision, 8 not only the product acceptability function, which another 9 individual was given, but I was also responsible for 10 environmental control at manufacturing plants. A group of 11 plants was assigned to me to monitor in terms of their 12 emmissions waste disposal and the like. And there was a 13 third category that had to do with the work place, 14 industrial hygiene. Those three functions, the product 15 the work place, and the waste disposal. 16 Q. How long did you have that position? 17 A. From about 1976 -- 1977 until 1983, I IS believe. 19 Q. And what job or position did you go onto 20 af ter that? 21 A. I then had the same title for another 22 reorganized group. I was now with the Monsanto Industrial 23 Chemicals Company. 24 Q. What did Monsanto Industrial Chemicals . 25 Company do? __ WALLER REPORTING, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000051944 i'i 1 . DUben 63 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A. They made chemicals used by industryin ` ~ general. The kinds of things I had before. Like the paper chemicals, and rubber chemicals, plasticizers, these kinds of chemicals. \ Q. How long did you have that position? A. Until the end of 1985. Q. What position did you go to then? A. Monsanto underwent another reorganization. I was then made manager of occupational health for all of the Monsanto chemical operations. Q. And what were your job duties there? A. I was concerned with industrial hygiene in the work place for about over 40 plants. 40, 50 plants. Q. Is that all of Monsanto's plants? A. All of the chemical plants, not the agricultural product plants or the other subsidiaries, this is just chemicals. Q Okay. How long did you have that position? A Until I retired at the end of 1986. Q Have you been self-employed since 1986? A Yes . Q Who has been your primary client or customer? A Monsanto really. Q you this Okay. I'm sorry, I may have already asked When you were head of the industrial chemical WALLER REPORTING, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000051945 b4 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 environmental portion, how long were you in that position for? A. Industrial chemicals, from 1983 to 1985. Q. Now, during this entire time that you hav.e been working with varying degrees of environmental, either compliance or dessemination of information, did you ever write any articles or write any textbooks, or treatise or anything at all other than letters and reports and internal memos? A. I don't quite know how to respond to that. Secause I did write papers on the subject of PCB's that I jould present to appropriate groups. Is that the kind of Jocument you're thinking of? Q. I'm thinking of that, in addition to articles :hat may have, or books that may have been published? A. I did not publish anything. Q. What papers -- I'm assuming when you're alking about papers, they were given to groups. Were ;hey different scientific groups or customer groups, or 'roups with a particular focus? A. The papers I have in mind dealt with PCB's. recall one that I wrote that I presented to a group of epresentatives primarily of electrical equipment anufacturers. At the first meeting or organizational eeting of a group that eventually became ANS_, guidelines WALLER REPORTING, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000051946 Mr. Busch 65 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 group. I also composed a report that was given before a sub-committee of congress, that also dealt with PCB's and Monsanto's role in its manufacturer, sales and control. I also composed a report again on PCB's that was given - before a toxic pollutants advisory committee,., or some such title to the EPA, which was addressing water pollutants. I can't recall any other papers. Q. When were these papers given? A. The paper before the ANSI group was given in September of 1971, I believe. Q. What is ANSI? A. The American National Standards Institute. The paper before congress was presented sometime in 1974 is the best I can recall on that. The paper before the advisory committee to EPA, 1973. Q. Do you recall which sub-committee of congress you gave the paper to? A. All I recall, is that in its title the reference to marine, there's a -- they had concerns about marine matters. And as part of their mandate, they interpreted this as referring to commercial fishing, and extrapolated that into ocean pollution and PCB's and bay of Boston and New England primarily. And the chairman of that sub-committee was a representative out of "' Massachusetts so he called this meeting. WALLER REPORTING, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000051947 Mr. Busch 66 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q. That is all I have on that particular point. (Whereupon, a short recess was taken.) Q. Do we have everyone there on the telephone? MR. LEWIS: This is Mike Lewis. I'm here". MR. TUCKER: John Tucker is here-. I am going to cover my microphone so as to not disturb you. Q. (By Mr. Busch) When we left off', we were talking about your last job description. While we were out on the break, you mentioned that in retrospect everything looks like everything is going real smooth, but really things were pretty frantic. Could you describe that a little bit for us? A. The number of entities interested in PCB ' s , kept increasing at a rapid rate. The questions being raised seemed endless. It also of seemed that we had created more questions. Everyone in my opinion, was sincerely trying to do the best they could with a situation that was totally new to the industry. In many respects, there were some hectic moments in terms of ability to respond quickly to so many telephone calls and requests for visits and requests for meetings. The continual request by those coming on board recently, to bring them up to speed. So there were some busy days involved. Q. When did this frantic p$ce first'""begin? WALLER REPORTING, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000051948 Mr. Busch 67 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A. It was, as far as I was concerned, it began early 197 0 . Q. When did it begin to let up? A. It relaxed a bit after Monsanto had withdrawn from its sales to many applications, and it.seemed to let up about 1973. Q. Okay. What type of groups are you saying people are calling you, and people are asking for -- asking for meetings. Who was calling you up and who was asking for those meetings? A. Customer representatives, government representatives, university individuals. People interested in the environment. The activists as we call them today. Monsanto employees throughout the world. Those are examples of the kinds of people that were interested. Q. Monsanto has produced a number of documents under a request for production of documents. I am going to go through some of these documents with you. But before we do that, I have what has been marked as Plaintiff's Exhibit No. 1, and want to know if you can identify that for us? (Whereupon, Plaintiff's Deposition Exhibit No. 1 was marked for identification.) A. This exhibi t is the shee,t on whicll I WALLER REPORTING, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000051949 Mr . Busch 68 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 previously drew the chemical diagrams for benzene* biphenyls and sample of PCB. And the final diagram shows the numbering system to designate the location of the chlorines around the biphenyl structure, " Q. Do you believe that would be help-ful for somebody to understand what we are talking about earlier in this deposition, if they could review that document . either during or after hearing your testimony? A. I -- yes, it will be helpful. Q. Okay, I am going to hand you what has been marked as Plaintiff's Exhibit No. 2, for the purpose of this deposition, can you identify that? (Whereupon, Plaintiff's Deposition Exhibit No. 2 was marked for identification.) A. This appears to be copies of a report entitled Comments on Proposed Rules on the use of polychlorinated biphenyls and electrical equipment, submitted by the Utilities Solid Waste Activities Group. The Edison Electric Institute and the National Rural Electrical Co-op Association to the U.S. Environment Agency and dated May 24th, 1982, Q. Are you familiar with that document? A. No, I'm not. Q. Have you ever seen that document before? "' A. No. . WALLER REPORTING, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000051950 Mr. Busch 69 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q. I'm going to hand you what has been marked as Exhibit 3. Can you identify that for us? (Whereupon, Plaintiff's Deposition Exhibit No. 3 was marked for identification.) A. This appears to be a copy of a teport entitled, Comments and Studies on the use of Polychlorinated Biphenyls in response to an order of the U.S. Court of Appeals from the District of Columbia Circuit. The Edison Electric Institute and the National Rural Electric Co-op Association to the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency, dated February 12, 1982. Q. Are you familiar with that document? A. No, I'm not. Q. Do you know the author of that document? A. I do not. Q. Do you know his reputation by chance? A. No, I do not. Q. I hand you what has been marked Plaintiff's Exhibit No. 4. Can you identify that for us? (Whereupon, Plaintiff's Deposition Exhibit No. 4 was marked for identification.) A. Copy of a report entitled, Comments and Studies on the use of Polychlorinated Biphenyls in response to the order of the U.S. Court of Appeals for the District of Columbia Circuit, submitted by the Utilities WALLER REPORTING, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000051951 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Solid Waste Activities Group. The Edison Electric - -- Institute and the National Rural Electric Co-op Association to the U.S. EPA, dated February 12, 1982. Volume 3. Report of the study of PCB's in equipment owned by the Electric Utility Industry, Reserve Planning Corporation. I can't read, looks like 19th Street, Northwest 650, Washington, D.C. Q. Are you familiar with that document? A . I'm not. Q. Have you ever seen it before? A. No, I have not. Q. If you'll do the same for Plaintiff's Exhibit No. 5, which I have just handed you. (Whereupon, Plaintiff's Deposition Exhibit No. 5 was marked for identification.) A. Copy of a report entitled, Comments and Studies on the use of polyclorinated biphenyl, in response to an order of the U.S. Court of Appeals for the District, of Columbia Circuit committee had by the Solid Waste. Q. Have you ever seen that document before? A. No, I have not. Q. Are you familiar with the consulting firm that prepared it? A. I'm not. - Q. Handing you Plaintiff's Exhibit I^o. 6. WALLER REPORTING, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000051952 l'l L . DUSCfl 71 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 (Whereupon, Plaintiff's Deposition Exhibit'No. 6 was marked for identification.) A. This is a copy of the report, appears to be a copy of a report, Comments and Studies on the Use of " Polychlorinated Biphenyl, in response to.an .order of the U.S. Court of Appeals for the District of Columbia Circuit. Submitted by the Utility Solid Waste Activity Group, Electric National Rural Electric Co-op Association, to the U.S. Environment Protection Agency, February 12, 1982. Volume I, executive summary and integrated comments. Q. Are you familiar with that document? A. I'm not, Q. Have you ever seen it before? A. I have not . Q. Are you familiarwith the people that may have prepared it? A. You mean the groups identified on the title Q. I'm sorry, no. I was thinking if there was any one particular author of that. I don't think that is A . I don't see any reference to any particular iuthor here. I do not, no. Q. I am handing you Plaintiff's Exhibit No. 7. WALLER REPORTING, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000051953 pi r . Busch 72 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 (Whereupon, Plaintiff's Deposition Exhibit'No. 7 was marked for identification.) A. This appears to be a copy of a report entitled, PCB Technical Report from EPRI, No. 5, dated' February 3, j Q. 1983. Are you familiar with ,, that document? A. I'm not, Q. Okay. What does EPRI stand for? Would it been Electrical Power Research Institute? A. That is what I am told. I don't know this organization. Q. I'm going to hand you Plaintiff's Exhibit No. 8. Can you identify that document? (Whereupon, Plaintiff's Deposition Exhibit No. 8 was marked for identification.) A. It appears to be a copy of a report entitled, Disposal of Polychlorinated Biphenyl, (PCB), and PCB Contaminated Materials, Volume 4. Test Incineration of Electrical Capacitor Containing PCB's. Should I read all of this? Q. No, I think if you can just briefly identify it. Are you familiar with that document? A. I have not seen it before. No, I'm not familiar. " Q. In an effort to kind of speed thins up, if you WALLER REPORTING, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000051954 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 could just look at it, you don't have to read the . t i-t-te . I'm going to hand you Plaintiff's Exhibit No. 8. Are you familiar with that document? (Whereupon, Plaintiff's Deposition Exhibit No. -8 was marked for identification.) A. I'm not familiar with this document either. Q. I am going to hand you -- MR. LEWIS: Mike, we need to know what they are . (Whereupon, Plaintiff's Deposition Exhibit No. 9 was marked for identification.) Q. (By Mr. Busch) Okay, Michael. No. 9 is Disposal of Polyclorinated Biphenyls (PCB), and PCB Contaminated Materials. Volume 3, Sample Preparation of Materials, PCB Spill Prevention Control and Counter Maintenance. Could you identify that for us, No. 10? October 1979. (Whereupon, Plaintiff's Deposition Exhibit No. 10 was marked for identification.) A. This appears to be a copy of a report, Disposal of Polychlorinated Biphenyls (PCB's), and PCB contaminated materials. Volume II,' Suggested Procedure for Adpotment of PCB's Spill Prevention Control and Counter Measure Plans. Q. Are you familiar with that document? WALLER REPORTING, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000051955 Mr . Busch 74 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A. I'm not familiar with this document." Q. Identify that. (Whereupon, Plaintiff's Deposition Exhibit No. 11 was marked for identification.) ' A. This appears to be a copy of.a report entitled, Disposal of Polyclorinated Biphenyls (PCB's), and PCB Contaminated Materials, Volume I. Q. Are you familiar with that document? A . I'm no t. I Q. I hand you what has been marked Plaintiff's Exhibit No. 12. Can you identify that document? (Whereupon, Plaintiff's Deposition Exhibit No. 12 was marked for identification.) A. This appears to be a copy of an article entitled, The PCB Problem for Utilities and EPRI's Research Response from a publication. Public Utilities Fortnightly, dated January 21, 1982. Q. Are you familiar with that particular document ? A. I am not. Q. I am going to hand you what has been marked Plaintiff's Exhibit No. 13. Can you identify that for us? (Whereupon, Plaintiff's Deposition Exhibit No. 13 was marked for identification.) A. This appears to be a copy of a letter on WALLER REPORTING, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000051956 !0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 letterhead, EPRI , Electric Power Research Institute,.' dated September 15, 1983. Signed by Jim Addis and Ralph Komai. Addressed to Technical Colleague with attachments. Part of attachments appears to be a response sheet for \ attending a seminar. And the last two pages are an agenda for a PCB seminar. Q. Are you familiar with that document? A . I'm not. J-J-if on or the had if on. Q. that? Plaintiff Exhibit No. 14, can you identify (Whereupon, Plaintiff's Deposition Exhibit No. 14 was marked for identification.) A. Appears to be a copy of a report entitled, State of the Art Review, PCBB's and PCBF's in Utility PCB Fluid. Q. Are you familiar with that document? A. I'm not. Q. I'm going to hand what has been marked Plaintiff's Exhibit No. 15. Can you identify that for us. (Whereupon, Plaintiff's Deposition Exhibit No. 15 was marked for identification.) A. PCDF's in Utility PCB Fluid. State of the Art review PCBB's, and PCDF's in the Utility PCB ' s . Proceeding 1981 PCB Seminar, and it has the EPRI logo on the cover page. WALLER REPORTING, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000051957 L>UC5Uii 76 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q. Are you familiar with that document?* ` ' A. I'm not. Q. I'm handing you what has been marked Plaintiff's Exhibit No. 16. Can you identify that *, document for us? ' (Whereupon, Plaintiff's Deposition Exhibit No. 16 was marked for identification.) A. It's a copy of a report entitled, Proceeding 1983 PCB's seminar, with the EPRI logo. Q. Are you familiar with that document? A. I'm not. Q. To speed this process up a little bit, I'm going to hand you a file folder marked Plaintiff's Exhibit No. 17. That contains some documents. Could you review those documents and describe them for us? (Whereupon, Plaintiff's Deposition Exhibit No. 17 was marked for identification.) A. The first document I'm looking at is a copy of a label. Dimensions approximately three by five inches with the wording: "This package contains Aroclor, chlorinated biphenyls technical. Avoid repeated contact with skin and inhalation of the fumes and dusts. MR. THOMAS: On these why don't you give the Bates Stamp No. on these individual pieces of paper? - A. The particular paper is SMI 0 00 0.QJ. WALLER REPORTING, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000051958 Mr. Busch 77 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q. (By Mr. Busch) Are you familiar with that particular document? A. Yes, I am. Q. Tell me about that. How was that used? - A. This label was affixed on pr.oduc.ts of PCB' s manufactured by Monsanto in the 30's and 40's. 1930's, 1940's. . Q. Do you know why it says avoid repeated exposure to vapors and dust, or fumes and dust? A. Yes. It's known that repeated skin contact will result in a damage to the skin to the point where it becomes initially reddened like chapped skin. And the continued exposure and it varies from person to person, can result in a chloracne out break to the exposed person. Inhalation of the fumes and dust initially manifests it as a symptom similar to a severe sore throat and cough. Again, continued breathing over an extended period of time, which again varies from person to person. The next set of symptoms to appear again would be the chloracne developed on the skin. So noting that, and this was demonstrated initially with acute toxicity studies with animals and rats with some industial experiences in the early days, this was believed to be the appropriate warning statement for that product. Q. You described a condition there e-alied WALLER REPORTING, INC. ^ WATER PCB-SD0000051959 Mr. Busch 78 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 chloracne. What is chloracne? - A. It's an acne skin condition very much like teenage acne. But it is stimulated by chemicals that contain carbon hydrogen and chlorine, chlorinated - hydrocarbons. Not all of them will create this skin condition. Q. And this was first found through animal testing the chloracne -- A. It's my understanding, yes. Q. And then you said that later those findings were confirmed by some industrial incidents or exposures? A. There was some exposures in industry in the early days, where employees had chloracne condition that was traced back to prolonged exposure to chlorinated biphenyls. Q. So the PCB ' s caused this skin condition? A. This was the conclusion at the time, yes. Q. Is that still the conclusion today as far as you know? . A. As far as I know. If the right conditions exist it can occur again. Q. Has it always been the generally accepted knowledge that PCB's will cause chloracne or can cause cloracne? A. Yes. WALLER REPORTING, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000051960 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q. Move to the next. A. SMI with five zero's and a 2. Is it a copy of a label. The label wording is, "Chlorinated biphenyls technical. Caution. Avoid prolonged or repeated contact with skin. Avoid prolonged^breathing of vapor and fumes." Q. When was that warning used? A. This is 1940's into the early 1950's. Q. Why was the label changed? A. Someone felt that by repeating the word avoid and breaking up that sentence that appeared in the earlier label, would make it much clearer to the reader of this message. Q. Was that done because your company felt it was important for people to avoid this contact? A. Certainly. Q. What is the next document we have? A. The next document, SMI five zero's and a three. Copies of two labels. It's the same wording, different size. The one is a three by five, the other appears to be about a two by four label. The wording is as follows, "Caution. Contains chlorinated hydrocarbons. Avoid prolonged breathing of vapors or mists. Avoid contact with eyes or prolonged contact with skin. If skin contact occurs, remove by washing with soap and water. Following eye contact, flush with water. If clothing WALLER REPORTING, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000051961 wr. uuscn 80 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 becomes soaked with fluid, launder before wearing - again." That message appears also in the second label copy. Q. When was this particular warning used? A. This was the latter part of 1950. Q. Why was the one label changed again? A. Two reasons. One, is it was perceived that the reference to, as in the earlier documents on the chlorinated biphenyls, might have been a little too technical for the average worker. Whereas up at that point in time, the words chlorinated hydrocarbons was becoming more widely used to cover a broad family of chemicals. So that change was made. And the other changes are attempts to really elaborate a little bit more about what is meant by -- not what is meant, but what to do in the event eyes are affected. Or what do you do when you get it on your skin. It goes on to say, "Wash it with soap and water and don't wear dirty clothing any longer then you have to." So, it's an attempt to emphasize the message a little more about exposure. Q. Now, you add in the part about the eyes. Were there any medical findings or tests that indicate that there could be problems with exposure of the eyes to these PCB ' s? A. Yes, there were animal studies made that ----- indicated in the presence of PCB's in the animals eyes, WALLER REPORTING, INC. ^ WATER PCB-SD0000051962 nr. du sen 81 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 caused a severe irritation. A reddening of the eyes and also from practical work place experience. The workers also reported that PCB ' s in the eyes could cause severe stinging and tearing of the eye. And they were seeking suggestions on how do I help myself if I do get some PCB's in my eyes? Q. So once again, the animal studies were validated by incidental human exposure? A. Correct . Q. That was used in the late 1950; is that correct? A. Yes, as best as I can recall. Q. What is our next one? A. The next one is, SMI with the five zeros and a four. A copy of a label with the wording, "This product contains polyclorinated biphenyls, which some studies have shown may be an environmental contaminant. Extreme care should be taken to prevent any entry into the environment through spills, leakage.. Use disposal vaporization or Q. When was that warning label used? A. This was used starting in about May of 1970. Q. So, maybe I misunderstood when we were :alking about the No. 3. The one that we just previously :alked about. Was that used you said late 19&fl, did you WALLER REPORTING, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000051963 Mr. Busch 82 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 mean late 1950's? A . Yes. Q. I may have misunderstood you. A. The decade 50's. ' Q. Let's let's go back to No. 4. then. I'm sorry, repeat again when this label was used? A. May 1970. Q. Just during the month of May? A. It started, we began using it in May 1970 and with modifications as time went on was used until we stopped making the product. Q. Why were changes made in the warninglabel again? A. Which changes? Q. Obviously, this one reads differently than the 1950, the 003 label? A. It does read differently, but they were not meant -- this was not meant to replace the previous. This is in addition to. Q. So you had the Bates No. 3 and then you supplimented that with No. 4; is that correct? A. The message on No. 3, was also included on other labels, bigger labels with the trademarks and so on. And this No. 4 message was in addition to that initial message. . WALLER REPORTING, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000051964 Mr. Busch 83 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q. Okay. Why were these additions made? A. This No. 4 message reflects the recent information regarding potential impact on the environment as distinguished from the previous message which was work place exposure. ' .- Q. Did this develop because they were finding PCB's were turning up in places that you normally wouldn't expect them to turn up, or were they really ought not be? A. That is correct. Q. So you're trying to minimize the release of these things out into the environment? A. Yes. Q. Earlier in the deposition, you talked about some of the people you go in and meet with different plant personnel management. And say if we don't do a good job of controlling this, we are going to lose the ability to use this product. Was this warning also an effort to get people to take better care of their plants and equipment, and not replace PCB's, so there would be a continued use of PCB's? If that is not a convoluted question, I don't know what is. A. This is one of the intentions here. Whatever is out in the many systems, should not be allowed to drip into the environment. Following any ban or restricted use. '*" WALLER REPORTING, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000051965 w >_ 11 04 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q. Was there any ban or restricted use at the time this warning went into effect? A . No . Q . Let's go on to No. 5. t A. SMI five zero'fe and a five, is a copy of a label with the wording, waste disposal. Use poly chlorinated biphenyl fluids may be returned freight prepaid for proper assimilation at 38 cents per pound. Shipped to supervisor department at 246 Monsanto Company, Sauget, Illinois, 62201. This was placed on the containers in the beginning about 19 -- early 1971. Q. Was this in addition to the warnings that were found in three and four? A. Correct. Q. And whywas there additions made? A. This is to remind thecustomers that a service for disposing of liquids was available at Monsanto through the use of an incinerator. Q. Move on to No. 6. A. No. 6, is a copy of a label with Monsanto logo. The product name Aroclor 1260, with the message, "Caution, avoid prolonged and repeated contact with skin. Avoid prolonged breathing of vapor and dust. Manufactured by Monsanto Chemical Company, St. Louis, Missouri." This label was in use starting in the mid 30's to " through WALLER REPORTING, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000051966 Mr. Busch 85 1 1940's. And maybe in the early 1950's. ~ 2 Q. Why is this one different from the other 3 earlier -- 4 A. This one os different in that the trademark 5 which designates the specific PCB mixture is included 6 along with the cautionary words about contact with skin 7 and breathing. It's combined, whereas the previous label 8 just had the precautionary wording and the product label 9 was a separate label. Or it isn't so much a label, let me 10 correct that. It was stenciled on the drum, and then the 11 precautionary label was affixed to the drum. This 12 contained -- No. 6 contains both the product trademark and 13 the previous cautionary statement. 14 Q. Was that stenciled on the the drum, or - 15 A. This is a label with adhesive backing that is 16 glued onto the drum. 17 Q. Now, you reviewed 1 through 6 with us so far. 18 Are the labels that you reviewed so far actual sizes that 19 occurred on the drums or have they been reduced for 20 purposes of copying? 21 A. No, these are exact actual sizes. 22 Q. Let's take a look at No. 7. 23 A. No. 7, the copy of a Monsanto product label, 24 Monsanto logo. "Aroclor 1260 chlorinated polyphenyls. - 25 Caution, contains chlorinated hydrocarbons. Avoid WALLER REPORTING, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000051967 Mr. buscn 86 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 prolonged breathing of vapors and mist. Avoid contact' with eyes or prolonged contact with skin. If skin contact occurs, remove by using soap and water. If clothing becomes soaked with fluid, launder before wearing again." And it has the net weight in reference to Monsanto Company, St. Louis. Q. Is there some changing in that from the original one, or are those changes made for basically the same reasons that you had the changes made between one, two, and three, the earlier ones? A. The changes in the cautionary statement, the other change is the logo. Monsanto changed its logo. That is a change, and of course, the address change. Q. It says 600 pounds. Is that how much a drum of this stuff would weigh? A. A 55 -- so called 55 gallon drum, which is a chemical drum, will weigh 600 pounds of Aroclor 1260. No. 8, is a copy of a label, which in all respects except one is similar to No. 7. The difference is in the inclusion of the statement referring to the environment that we talked about earlier. Q. Okay. Now, when was this particular label in use? A. This is shortly after May 1970. The previous- label we saw was affixed to product and inventory with the WALLER REPORTING, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000051968 Mr. Buscft 87 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 previous label. As soon as that inventory was sold arid' moved out, this new label was designed and used. Q. Take a look at No. 9. A. No. 9, is a copy of a label for Aroclor 126.0. The exposure statement is identical to what we previously saw. The environmental statement is included on this 'particular label. However, there's a reference and I'd read it. "Contact your Monsanto representative regarding reclaimation of used fluid." And this one also includes the previous paragraph regarding return of fluid for proper incineration. Q. If someone were to contact Monsanto to ask questions about the reclaimation of the reused fluid, what would they have been told? A. They would have likely have been questioned about the quality of the fluid they were considering reclaiming. If it appeared to be grossly contaminated, the chances are they would have been told we cannot reclaim it. If it is only slightly contaminated they would be given instructions on how to package it. How to label it, where to ship it. What destination, some idea of the cost, and some idea of the time it took to accomplish all of this to return the material. Q. Now, you say grossly contaminated. What kind--., of contamination are we talking about? WALLER REPORTING, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000051969 6 '6 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A. I don't remember the exact numbers. -There is a threshold. That I have forgetten frankly what it is in terms of chlorine contents, metal content. The dialectric constant we talked earlier, color. All of these things. There are criteria that are'looked at. And if they are exceeded, the experience shows that reclaimation cannot be made- I don't recall the specifics any longer. Q. What did Monsanto do to try and reclaim that used fluid? A. There were two approaches. The principal one was the treatment with a special kind of clay that had the ability to absorb the undesireable contaminants. And the product that went through this clay bed would generally be acceptable. Another approach, which was not often done, but was done on occasion, would be to redistill the naterial, and attempt to recover a useful distillate and the tars that remained would be discarded, because that is >?here the contaminate would remain. Q. How long was that particular warning in use )r when was it in use? A. This label was in use beginning about 1971, ind was continued in use -- this particular label which refers to Aroclor 1260 was in use only briefly in 1971. iecause Aroclor 1260 production was terminated. Q. When was the 12 6 0 terminated? WALLER REPORTING, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000051970 63 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A. About 1971, as I remember. Q So this was used for only a few months. What does No. 10 say? A No. 10, is a copy of a product label, Monsanto logo, product Aroclor 1254. It contains the precautionary statement about prolonged and repeated skin contact. And avoid prolonged breathing of vapor and dust Manufactured by Monsanto Chemical Company, St. Louis, Missouri. This was -- this is a copy of an early label in the 30's, 40 ' s . not? Q. That was for a particular product line is it A . Yes . Q. You would still with that product have the same concerns with the exposure to the fumes and the dust? A . I'm sorry? Q. skin? The exposure to the fumes and dust by the A. Yes. . Q- Okay. What do we have on No. 11? A . No. 11, a copy of a label for, looks like 1254 again. Aroclor 1254. Q. Is there anything different about that label in terms of the environmental warnings, are the occupational warnings, or any of the warning that as WALLER REPORTING, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000051971 90 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 opposed to changes due to the product? `~ A. No, the warnings on this particular label are identical to those that appear on SMI -- five zero's 7. The only difference is it refers to a different PCB . Q. Had the same concerns about exposure to the PCB's? A . Yes Q. What is on No. 12? A. No. 12 again, refers -- I can't read this number here. It is one of Aroclor's. It contains the cautionary state regarding human contact breathing and skin contact. This also includes the environmental statement. The potential for contaminating the environment, and the proper control. Q. Okay. And what would the date be for the use of No. 12 there? A. This one is middle of 1970's, to about -- I want to say, for about a year, middle of 1971. Q. Let's take a look at No. 13. A. No. 13, a copy of a label for Aroclor 1254. Includes the same statements regarding the human exposure, skin and eye, and laundering of clothing. It contains the environmental statement. This also contains, contact Monsanto representative for reclaimation. And includes - the statement regarding returning material fo WALLER REPORTING, INC WATER PCB-SD0000051972 uua^li 91 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 incineration. * Q. Are the warnings on that particular label identical to the warnings found on some of the previous labels we have talked about? A. Yes, they are identified on theExhibit that is SMI five zero's 9. Q. Let's take a look at No. 14. A. No. 14, this is a copy of a product label. The product is Aroclor 1254, referred to as a dialectric fluid by Monsanto. It refers to the cautionary statements that are lithographed on the drum in seven languages. It also refers to the availability of an incineration service by Monsanto. And refers to the appropriate person at Monsanto to contact. It again indicates the weight of the container. It contains also on this label the international -- I understand that's the cross of St. Andrew that is used universally to designate a material that requires cautious handling. And attached to that is a reduced copy of the seven language message, which Includes the environmental statement. The employee axposure cautionary statements that we read in the previous copies. Q. Are there any in the warning statements? Are :here any other changes from any of the previous warning " ; tatements ? -- WALLER REPORTING, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000051973 i'i L . CUiOJl 92 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A. Yes, there are. -~ Q. What would those be? A. These are the major differences have to do with reference in addition to preventing entering an environment. And I read this on the applications in which it cannot come into contact with food, animal feed items or pharmaceuticals. That's the new addition to this I environmental statement. Q. When was this label put into effect? A. 1973. Q. Why were the changes made on this particular one, regarding avoiding PCB contact with food items and animal feed? A. By that time, we had learned quite a bit about the presence of PCB' s in some food items. The FDA was conducting an analytical survey. There was an incident in which PCB's were found in ingredients that were essentially used in animal feed. And that explains the reference to animal feed in the message. And I don't know a specific example that relates to pharmaceuticals, but we were aware of heat transfer systems in the pharmaceutical industry. And we wanted to make certain that we didn't get any PCB's in pharmaceuticals inadvertently. - Q. You didn't want people injesting ,-ar eating WALLER REPORTING, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000051974 r. Busch 93 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 PCB's, did you? ` A . Not really. No, that is true. Q. You talk about PCB's getting into, I'm sorry, feed for livestock. What kind of feed did the PCB's get into? ._ A. I am only aware of two examples. No, I take it back. Three examples of the introduction inadvertently into materials that ended up in animal feed. One, was the PCB's in the fish meal, which was being sterilized. And that fish meal ended up as an ingredient in poultry food. The chickens consumed the feed and it showed up in their ability to hatch eggs. And some of the birds did get ill. Another incident was PCB's used in a baking unit that leaked on the floor, were swept up with bread crumbs and the like from the slicing machines. And those contaminated bread crumbs were collected in a trash container with stale bakery goods all of which ended up in poultry feed. That got into some flocks of chickens. Another source of PCB's was in the dairy cattle, because of the coating, used in concrete silos being rubbed off got into the silage and the cattle ate the silage. And it showed up in their milk. Those are the three incidences that I'm aware of that PCB's got into animals feed and eventually showed up. Q. When did these three incidents occur? WALLER REPORTING, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000051975 DUilil 94 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A. As best I recall, about 1971. '' Q. All three in 1971? A. Just about 1971, 1972. About a year period in there . Q. Where did these occur? A. The poultry fish meal incident occurred throughout the southeast, the Holly Farms operation. The other poultry incident occurred up in the New York area. And the silage incident in Michigan. Q. Was this different than that big outbreak that occurred in like 1975 with the fire retardant in Michigan TPPB's? A. That is a totally different situation. Q. Were there any animal studies done as a result of these exposures? A. No, the studies were completed. I'm sorry, they were underway. The chicken studies that I talked about earlier and the rat, and dog studies were underway in 1971. Q. I'm sorry, I don't think you understood my question. I didn't phrase it properly for you. MR. THOMAS: Were those inadvertently contaminated animals actually studied? A. Yes. Q . (By Mr. Busch) Were the incident-s. where the WALLER REPORTING, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000051976 3J 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 animals were exposed by accident, studied to see \fhat ~ health effects occurred? A. Yes, the Holly Farms people conducted their own studies and reported PCB's in eggs. And they reported their poultry, some of the sick flocks had PCB's in their tissue. The flesh of the animal, the bird. The Michigan case, the Department of Health in Michigan, the Dairy Department I'm sorry, the diary section of the Department of Agriculture, in the State of Michigan, analyzed the milk and found PCB ' s in that milk. The New York incident, I think there too -- let me recall this. It was similar to the Holly Farms in terms of hatchability of the eggs and sick birds. Q. Okay. Did you review these studies as part of your position? A. Certainly I hesitate only because it was sometime later that I was able to get written reports. It took a couple of years, so the actions we were taking predated the time I got the reports. Q. Just to.be on the safe side? A. We believed what we were hearing and we took -- we didn't wait for the formal dated stamped reports to come by. Q. When you got the formal dated stamped reports___ and you had a chance to sit down and review them, did you WALLER REPORTING, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000051977 Mr. duscIi 96 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 find them accurate? - '~ A. As best I could tell, yes. Q. Let's talk about the Holly Farms ones. What kind of findings did they find in the Holly farms repor-t? A. I have forgotten the levels of PCB's found, but they were fairly easily detectable. So, it was not a matter of a very small amount. It was a respectable amount in the eggs. They also reported the inability of those eggs to hatch. Q. Do you happen to know what percentage of these eggs didn't hatch? A. I don't remember the numbers, but it was not a matter of even being close. The whole incubator system was not producing chicks. So it was quite dramatic. I don't remember the exact percentages, but it was quite high. Some of the flocks, the chickens I remember, they had a build up of fluid in their bodies. Which I'm told is referred to in the early days of chickedema factor, which was used then. I don't think they are using that any longer to describe this symptom. There was a buildup of fluid in those birds that were highly exposed. I don't remember any other specifics, other than some of the flocks were listless. They seemed to have lost their appetite. They started losing weight. These kind of - general sick flocks. WALLER REPORTING, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000051978 nr. Duscn 97 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q. Kind of a general malaise? -' A. Malaise, that is a good word. Yes, sir. Other than that I don't recall anything more. Q. Did they do any autopsies or biopsies of these chickens to see if there were any effects on the organ systems? A. I don't recall any report that described that, no. Q. Is there any doubt in your mind that the PCB ' s caused the problems that were complained of in those reports? A. When you say any doubt, there's a little bit of doubt. I'm wondering personally and this is a personal opinion, was there something else involved. Because it didn't appear all flocks that ate the same fish meal were affected the same way. There seemed to be some variety out there, which was never fully explained to this day. And to this day, I personally don't know why the difference, there' s a little bit of a question. On the other hand, why the PCB ' s were there. They must have contributed. Q, Let me rephrase that question. Is there any doubt in your mind that the PCB ' s contributed to the problems? - A. No. WALLER REPORTING, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000051979 n L . DUSCfi 9a 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q. We talked about Holly Farms. What sort 'of findings were found in the New York chicken feed studies? A. I don't recall a formal report on that. The information I got resembled the kind of symptoms observed in the Holly Farms incident',-' is all I recall on that one. It was not as large or as widespread. That is all I frankly remember about that New York incident. Q. How 1arge was the Holly Farms? How many flocks of birds or how many birds ? A. I don'tremember. Q. Do you know how large the New York study was? A . No . Q. Basically had the same sort of findings that you saw in Holly Farms ? A. Yes. Q. Were these two reports done in conjunction with each other, or were they done by two independent groups? Do you know if they consulted with each other? A. I do not know if they consulted with each other. The study by Holly Farms, I don't know of any firm other than Holly Farms with some outside laboratory help did their own study. I don't know which laboratory they used for analyzing for PCB's. The New York situation, I just don't recall any formal report. That doesn't mean .. one doesn ' t exi s t. I have never seen it. WALLER REPORTING, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000051980 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 warning labels, with the primary difference being.this .is for a Westinghouse product as opposed to a Monsanto product ? A. That is correct. _ Q. The PPO is that the chlorine scavager that you told me about earlier? A. The PPO is used as the acronym for that scavager. But it is also used to identify this particular blend for Westinghouse. So it has a little different meaning in this use than in the previous use. (Whereupon, a short recess was taken.) Q. We last talked about No. 20, didn't we? A. No. 20; correct. Q. What does No. 21 deal with? A. 21 deals with the same product Interteen PPO. It has the same employee exposure cautionary statements. This label includes the environmental statements cautioning again entry into the environment and the need to control . Q. And what years was that label in use? A. This is 1970 to about 19 -- the end of 1971. Q. I don't think I asked you this question before. These copies you have here are black and whites because of coming off a Xerox machine. What were these lables -- what color were they in their original form, if WALLER REPORTING, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000051981 Mr. Busch 99 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q. Now, what do you recall about the Michigan silage problem? A. All I recall is that the dairy division of the Department of Agriculture in the state, found PCB ' s in samples of milk from some of the dairy farms"in Michigan. Q. Do you recall how high a level of PCB's were found in the milk? A. Only that it exceeded the then permissible level, which I think was something like -- 5 -- it exceeded the FDA guideline for PCB's in milk. Q. Who set that standard? Is that the FDA? A. It was an FDA guideline as distinguished from a regulation or standard. Q. Are you familiar with how they came up with 5 parts per million? Is that the permissible level of i PCB's? A. I personally don't know how they came about it. I am led to believe they mimicked the DDT level . Q. Is there any similarities between PCB' s and DDT? . A. The similarities are there, yet they ar.e not really chemically significant. They both contain carbon, and hydrogen, and chlorine. The configuration is different. They don't degrade readily. They do cause some problems with analytical chemists, in that they seem WALLER REPORTING, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000051982 i Ulj 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 to come out in the process at about the same point on the chart. Those similarities are there, and because of that analytical similarity, many of the analysis that one -- in a period of time were rather confusing in terms of is It really DDT. Is it PCB or ife it some of each. So in the minds of many in the early days before so much information was available, they were treated in a similar fashion in terms of how to control it in the presence of food as an example. Q. At that point in time in your job, was that desseminating information -- what were you telling people to do to help prevent PCB's getting into food, or food products or pharmaceutica1s or feed? A. I was using just those words when I spoke to them at every opportunity I had. Don't let it get into those places. I don't know of any unique statements other than that. Q. Did anybody ever ask you this is my situation, what should I do to prevent it from getting into food items? A. The obvious one is we terminated sales of PCB's into heat exchanged systems that handled food. For example, baking of potato chips or fried fish. And in a bakery where they bake bread, we pulled it out of those - applications. So that was a very dramatic withdrawal to WALLER REPORTING, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000051983 Mr. Busch 101 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 prevent it from getting into food. In those cases where we weren't certain of the eventual use of the PCB's, all we could do is remind them if you have PCB's don't get it near food. Such things an a transformer that is hanging over a conveyor belt on which food is carried! If that thing starts leaking and gets on the food, that's a no, no. Avoid that, relocate the transformer. And put a drip pan under it or take some action. That's the kind of message we were trying to get across. Q. How far away would you have suggested at that point in time, to keep a -PCB transformer from food? A. I was in no position to even talk distances like that. I haven't -- I had no personal knowledge exactly what the total circumstances were. All I could say is, whatever you do, don't let it get in the food. Now, they could have moved the transformer, or they could have put a shield over the conveyor. There are several ways to approach this. Q. We kind of digressed there for a moment. What do we have on -- I think you have identified No. 15. Take a look at No. 16. A. I don't have a 15. I'm sorry. The attachment to 14, which is the reduced copy of the seven language message. Q. Now, you say that is a reduced copy. How WALLER REPORTING, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000051984 jj u o *1 1U^ 1 large was it actually? .~ 2 A. If you took the top half of the page, which 3 shows four boxes with four different languages 4 represented, that could cover half of a steel drum. The 5 bottom half could cover the'other half. And the drums are 6 about 30 inches wide, a yard maybe. I'm guessing. 7 Q. You're talking about the standard - 8 A. 55 gallon chemical drum. So, these would go 9 all the way around the drum. 10 Q. Why did you put them in seven different 11 languages ? 12 A. Well, primarily because we were still 13 shipping PCB ' s out of our English or Wales operation into 14 many, many countries with many languages involved. That 15 was the primary reason. And once we did that for Europe, 16 why not do it in this country. And we were thinking 17 really of the Spanish and English versions in this 18 country, but since we had them, we just ordered the drums 19 this way. 20 Q. What language is it found in? 21 A. We haveDutch, German, Italian, Spanish 22 Portuguese, English and French. 23 Q. What is No. 16? 24 A. No. 16? 25 Q. Actually 16 and 17? WALLER REPORTING, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000051985 Mr . Busch 103 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A. It is a copy of a label. Virtually identical to the previous No. 14. The only difference is the reference to the department in Monsanto, to which the request for waste disposal by incineration could be - accomplished. The department number was changed and the label reflects that. I Q. Were there any changes on the seven language warnings found on No. 17? A. I don't know of any, no. Q. Let's take a look at No. 18. A. No. 18? Q. First, let me back up a second. When was 16 and 17 in use? A. Starting in 1973 until 1977. No. 18 appears to be a duplicate of No. 16. I'm sorry, No. 18 has an additional piece of information included on the label. In the right-hand corner is the statement, "In case of spill or leak call collect, 618-271-5835." Q. Was that your telephone number? A. This is the plant's telephone number. Q. Let's say that if somebody called up and said there's a spill, what would you have told them to do? A. Depends on their description of the type of spill they had. ' Q. Let me back up then. What would iye the goals WALLER REPORTING, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000051986 l; _i o i 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 or what type of things would you be trying to achieve ,if~ this had been a spill? A. Keep it out of the environment. Don't let it get on the roadway. As you travel to your destination, . use absorbing materials, sand, sawdust something to capture it. If it is minor, when you go to your next destination, unload it and make certain it is in an area where it can be well controlled. And we'll arrange to have somebody drop by and look at it, and transfer it, or clean up if necessary. If it is major to the point where the truck bed is saturated, pull off the side of the road and wait, and we will send a crew out of Monsanto people to look at it, and arrange whatever it takes to control it. Ripping out the floor boards, replacing new ones. Taking the floor boards to a proper landfill. Whatever is appropriate for the situation. So we would get personally involved if necessary. If it is just a drum that is a little bit oily, then you tell the person to get -- if you can find one, quickly get an over sized drum and put the shipping drum inside another drum. And take it on to its destination, or return it to Monsanto. Whatever is the closest. Those are just some of the approaches that would be considered. Q. What kinds of crews would you send out on the major spills? WALLER REPORTING, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000051987 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A. I don't know how to answer. This would he.,.a person who knew the materials. First of all, it would be at a minimum a foreman. Any time it could be a supervisor. If it was quite extensive, we would send out a guy that is familiar with'shipping arrangements to arrange for a truck, or a railroad, or whatever is involved. A. And the person that would be sent out would of course, have access to resources like a commercial clean up contractor that he could call to help him with whatever bulldozers or pumps and the like. Q. What other resources besides commercial clean up contractor? A. This is Monsanto resources, but that again is a judgement call. If it is several thousand miles away, it is better to go contract. If it is only 50 miles, send the Monsanto team. Pick up the truck and its shovels, and rakes, and sawdust, and drums, whatever it takes. Q. When was that label in effect? A. This label here is 1974, 1975 period. Q. If there had been a spill, would there have been any charge to the person that had the drum that was leaking for this response by Monsanto? A. Not to my knowledge, no. Monsanto would pick that up. WALLER REPORTING, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000051988 Mr. Busch 108 1 you know? 2 A. Some were black and white. Some were red. 3 Red background behind the logo with black print on a white 4 background. - 5 Q. Were any of the warnings ever, printed in red 6 or yellow, or some other color other than - 7 A. The warnings as best I recall, were always 8 black on some other background. Black on white primarily 9 and the multi language label was black on yellow. The 10 whole drum was yellow. 11 Q. But every warning label was clear and 12 visible, and there should not ever have a problem reading 13 the label? 14 A. I agree, yes . 15 Q. What is No. 22? 16 A. 22 is a copy of a label again for Interteen 17 PPO. This copy contains the statements that appeared on 18 the previous Exhibit. But this time it includes the 19 statement referring to the opportunity to dispose via 20 incineration, and to contact Monsanto at a given address. 21 Q. Contacting Monsanto in this case, are you 22 talking about contacting for incineration or contacting in 23 case of a spill? 24 A. This is contacting for incineration. ' 25 Q. What date was that label in use?-"" WALLER REPORTING, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000051989 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A. This is 1971 to 1973. '. ~ Q. What do we have on the label No. 23? A. No. 23, this is a copy of a label referring to a Westinghouse blend Interteen 70-30. It contains t-he employee exposure cautionary statements that we had seen before. The label was in use in 1950 and 1960 up to early 1970 . Q. Okay. Is that substantially similar to the other warnings that were found? A. It is exactly the same wording. Q. What is on No. 24? A. 24 also see refers to Interteen 70-30. Is identical to the previous Exhibits, but this one contains the environmental statement cautioning about entry via spills, leakage, disposal and so on. This went into use in the middle of 1970, and up to about 1971. Q. Okay. What do we have on No. 24, or 25? A. 25 again, referring to Interteen 70-30. Is identical to the previous Exhibits, but contains in addition the statement referring to incineration disposal, and gives the Monsanto contact address. This label was in use from 1971 to 1973 roughly. Q. How about No. 26? A. 26 is a copy of a label that refers to . Interteen 70-30. Has attached to it the sevei^language WALLER REPORTING , INC. WATER PCB-SD0000051990 Mr. Busch 110 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 precautionary statements regarding release to the' '- environment, and exposure to workers. On the face of the label, there is reference to disposal via incineration and a Monsanto address to contact. This particular label went into use in 1973. As best I recall was in use in 1974 or so . Q. I have a question on this. The saying is that St. Andrew's cross? A. Yes. Q. Is that an international equivalent of what we commonly see as a skull and cross bones? A. That is my understanding, yes. Q. Their label also contains that St. Andrew's cross? A. Yes. Q. How did they happen to pick the St. Andrew's cross for that? A. I don't know. Q. Do you happen to know if that was black or white, or in the original version the cross itself? A. I have only seen black on white, yes. Q. What do we have on No. should be 28? a. No. 28, is identical to 26. Except that the reference to the disposal department at Monsanto is - changed to show a different number. Instead .oj: 831 it's WALLER REPORTING, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000051991 I'J 1 . DUbCil___________ 111 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 790. This particular one, label was in use 1974 to 19 7~5 , 1976 . Q. Okay. What do we have on No. 29? A. 29 was a copy of the -- Q. I'm sorry, it should be 30. 29 was the seven language. A. Seven language precautionary statement. No. 30, is a copy of a label for another Westinghouse product, Interteen 54201KA. Contains the same employee exposure cautionary statement. And this label was in use in the 1950's and 1960 ' s . Q. What do we have on 31? A. 31 refers to the same Interteen as the previous Exhibits. But this version of that label in addition to the employee exposure cautionary statements includes the environmental statement. And also includes the disposal by incineration information. Q. What do we have on 32? A. 32 is a label for Interteen 54201KA, which includes the seven language precautionary statements, and on the front of the label we again have the St. Andrew's cross. And the reference to disposal by incineration and gives the Monsanto contact for that service. Q. What do we have on 34? - A. 34 is virtually identical to 32,.except that WALLER REPORTING, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000051992 J- ^ 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 the disposal reference department number has been - changed from 831 to 790. Q. That is also a seven language warning? A. Correct. - Q. Would you read'those warnings for me just one more time? A. I'll read you the English version. Q. That's fine. A. The English section of this seven language message. "Chlorinal biphenyls (42 percent-54 percent), or 60 percent (PCB). This product contains polyclorinated biphenyls (PCB's), which some studies have shown may be persistent in environment contaminant and possible injurious to certain form of birds, acquatic and animal life. Prevent entry into the environment through spills, leakages, disposal, vaporization, reuse of containers or otherwise. Spills, leakages and waste product must be collected. Use of this product must be restricted to applications which can be controlled, so that entry into the environment does not occur. And to applications in which it cannot come into contact with food, animal feed items or pharmaceuticals. Harmful substances if taken internally or if in prolonged contact with the skin, causes irritation of skin and eyes. During shipment, avoid spills and leakage into inland water ways and the WALLER REPORTING, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000051993 Mr. buscn 113 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 sea. Store away from food, animal feed items and' '~ pharmaceuticals. Keep container tightly closed. Do not eat or smoke when using. Avoid breathing vapors mist or fumes. Do not wear contaminated clothing. Wash product, from skin with soap and water. Wash eyes by flushing with water." Q. From my recollection, there's a change in that one from some of the others that we have talked about. About do not smoke or eat while using this product. Is that a change from some of the others? A. I neglected to read that particular change in the previous seven language version, but all seven languages includes that statement. Q. Why was that change made? A. It was an attempt again to reduce human exposure. And this is one way that was brought to our attention as a possible source of entry into the human body. People eating with dirty hands or smoking without washing their hands. So we decided to include it. No incident occurred to create this need, it was just another example of the entire desire to prevent problems. . Q. Take a look at No. 36. A. I have it. Q. Can you identify that document for us? . A. This is a copy of a invoice from Monsanto WALLER REPORTING, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000051994 Mr. Busch 114 1 Company, billed to Westinghouse Electric. Material was to 2 be shipped to Public Service of Oklahoma, 52nd and 3 Granite, Tulsa. Dated, the invoice is dated the 15th of 4 December 1975. " 5 Q, Are there any warnings on that in-voice? 6 A. Yes . 7 Q. Could youread those for us? . 8 A. "This product contains polychlorinated 9 biphenyls, (PCB's), which some studies have shown may be 10 persistent in environmental contaminate and possible 11 injurious to certain forms of bird, acquatic and animal 12 life. Prevent any entry into the environment through 13 spills, leakages, disposal, vaporization, reuse of 14 containers or otherwise. Spills, leaks and waste product 15 must be collected. Use of the product must be restricted 16 to applications that can be controlled so that entry into 17 the environment does not occur. And to applications in 18 which it cannot come into contact with food, animal feed 19 items or pharmaceuticals." 20 Q. Do you know if that invoice was in fact 21 shipped or sent to PSO? 22 A. I have no reason to believe otherwise. 23 Q. Could you take a look at document, is 38 our 24 next document? 25 A. Yes. ,^ WALLER REPORTING, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000051995 I'J X . D ui c ii ~tj. a- 1 Q. Can you identify that for us? - -~ 2 A. This is a copy of a invoice Monsanto Company, 3 billed to Westinghouse Electric in Kansas City. And 4 shipped to Public Service of Oklahoma, dated November . 5 19th, 1974. 6 Q. Are there any warning on that invoice? 7 A. Not on this invoice. 8 Q. Would there have been any warnings sent along 9 with this shipment of materials? 10 A. At this time, the warnings would be 1974, it 11 would be on the product label. 12 Q. When did you first start adding a warning to 13 the invoices? 14 A. Sometime in 1975, it was decided to be a good 15 idea to repeat the message on the invoices. 16 Q. Were warnings given to the purchasers of this 17 product in any other way besides on the product and the 18 invoices? 19 A. The billing of lading contained the same 20 messages. I believe that was instituted about 1974 also. 21 Q. Did it contain the same warning? 22 A. Yes. I can't recall any other warning 23 messages to customers, except that there were product 24 bulletins that included the same messages in a different 25 section of the bulletins. WALLER REPORTING, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000051996 I'ir . duscii uo 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q. What else did these product bulletins contain? A . What else? Q. Yes? A . At what point in time, maybe that would help? Q. I'm not thinking in exact context, but what general subject matter was in it? A. They would refer to waste of proper handling, the degree of emphasis increased with time so that the later versions emphasize that quite a bit. They refer to method of disposal. They refer to -- they even refer to laboratories that could be used to help analysis if necessary. Such things as what kind of hand cream employees could use to protect their hands. References to wearing gloves, washing of clothing, just like the labels do. Also references how to reclaim material that isn't too badly contaminated. Of course, it bragged about the fire resistant properties. Why its use was looked upon as being proper, the smart thing to do. Those kinds of messages were in a product bulletin. Q. Kind of it's a responsible product if it is used responsibly? A. Correct. Q. You last described number 38. What is that 38? _ WALLER REPORTING, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000051997 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A . We just talked about 38. Q. Let's took a look at 39. A. 39 is a copy of an invoice Monsanto. Looks like sold to and shipped to the same. Public Service . Company of Oklahoma, dated November 10th, 1970, referring to Interteen 70-30. Q. Now, you have reviewed all of these documents that were found in the file folder No. 17. Are you familiar with these documents? A. Yes. Q. From your work? A. Yes. Q. Are these true and accuraterepresentations of the documents that were sent to PSO? A. Yes. Q. Are the warning labels contained on the product? A. Correct. Q. Are there any other warnings that were given for PCB's or PCB containing the products that we haven't talked about? A. I can't think of any. Q. During the 1970 ' s when you were in the -- in your position as manager of environmental control you're also going out to customers and giving them little talks WALLER REPORTING, INC.' WATER PCB-SD0000051998 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 on these warnings also? A. I went to some customers, not the thousands that are out there. Q. You were doing everything in your power to get the information out? A. Yes. Q. I am going to hand you what has been marked Plaintiff's Exhibit No. 18. See if you can identify that for us. (Whereupon, Plaintiff's Deposition Exhibit No. 18 was marked for identification.) A. This exhibit is a three page document. The last two pages are copies of a letter on Monsanto letterhead, dated February 28, 1972, signed by T.L. Gossage, Marketing Director, Specialty Products Group. One is addressed, attention, purchasing Agent. The other is addressed, attention, the plant engineer. These are form letters made on or about that date. The front sheet is a copy of a page on which labels with adhesive were typed for mailing purposes. And photographed before the labels were peeled off and affixed to. And the reference on this particular page is to Public Service of Oklahoma, Post Office Box 201, Tulsa, Oklahoma, 74102, and Interteen 70-30. Q. What is the general content of the letters WALLER REPORTING, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000051999 J-u -i- 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 that were sent to the purchasing agents? - -- A. The general contents, this is information on the recipient that PCB ' s , pCB containing fluids that at one time were available directly from Monsanto to ,, companies represented by the recipient, would no longer be available directly from Monsanto. And that the recipient of this letter must go to his equipment manufacturer to get replacement liquids. Q. Now, how did this letter come about? A. Earlier, a few months preceding this letter, Monsanto entered a program whereby those remaining electrical equipment manufacturers who still purchased PCB containing fluids, must sign a hold harmless agreement with Monsanto, before Monsanto would continue to supply them with FCB liquids. Q. Okay. Why did Monsanto do that? A. Well, the primary reason was to make certain, as I recall, make certain that the customer who insisted that he had no suitable replacement for the fluid, understood the need for properly controlling the use disposal of these fluids. So they didn't create any kind of environmental problems. And one way to make certain that the message was understood, we believed, was to force them to look at a document which an individual high up in _ the customer's organization was to sign. And by so WALLER REPORTING, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000052000 Mr . Busch 120 1 signing, we felt that the commitment to do what is proper 2 was going to be there. That was really the intent at the 3 time. It didn't change the customer list any, it just 4 forced people within these companies, vice presidents and 5 even presidents to sign off. By doing so,- we--felt that 6 these individuals were in a position to provide the 7 necessary resource and incentive to handle these materials 8 properly. 9 Q. Okay. Prior to this letter, was there any 10 discussion at Monsanto about the discontinuation of the 11 sale of PCB products? 12 A. Oh, yes, many times. 13 Q. Tell me a little bit about those. 14 A. Of course, we had discussion about 15 discontinuing PCB sales to several users early on. And 16 many of those users have discontinued the paints, lacquer, 17 varnish, sealants, carbonless copy paper, on and on. By 18 the time we got to 1972, the only applications still being 19 supplied was dialectric equipment use. There was serious 20 talk about discontinuing even that application, but we 21 were told emphatically by the industry, that there was no 22 suitable replacement. That if we -- that if we 23 arbitrarily stopped supplying it, it would create brown 24 outs and all kinds of power disruptions. And this is 25 something that our society, our economic system could not WALLER REPORTING, INC. " WATER PCB-SD0000052001 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 tolerate. Based on that strong assertion on the 'part of our customers, we felt obligated. We felt obligated to continue to supply. But we kept telling them as soon as you find a suitable replacement, we are going to get out. Q. When did Monsanto get out? A. We finally stopped in 1977. Q. What suitable replacements was found? A. Well, the word suitable, I'll call it acceptable with some disadvantages. As I understood it, some applications went to mineral oil with a different type of installation, volts and dialectric systems, and remote locations. Others went to dry gas filled tramsformers. Still others went to silicone fluids, which performed fairly well as dialectric correct, but at lower, as I understand it, lower ratings if the unit could no longer do what it used to do when it retrofitted. Also, I understand that there is some sacrifice of fire retardancy. I don't know just how much, but it was not quite as fire resistent as the old fluids used to be. Those were the replacements that I understood were finally developed. Q. What caused Monsanto t'o finally decide enough is enough, we need to stop making this? A. I really can't speak for those who made that difficult decision. Obvious to me, was the fact that the WALLER REPORTING, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000052002 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 amount of material now being used had dropped to such-a- low level, that it could not sustain the monsterous plant that stood there to create that trickle of material. At the same time, some of the equipment needed replacement,, such as the incinerator. That created a need for a high capital expenditures, and the cost of these units that multiplied tremendously since the original one. So it became an economic consideration eventually. In spite of that, we continued to make the product until our customers eventually said, okay, we are rid, because it wasn't just a case of finding a new liquid, they had to change their production lines. Some of their tankage, you change some of their design features, and so on. So it isn't as simple as it might appear on the surface. Q. But Monsanto didn't stopproduction until you felt confident that the electrical power industry was ready for the - A. They told us. Q. When you say they told us, who is they? A. The Westinghouse House's, the General Electric's. I forget all the names. The dozen orso that were still in the business. Q. These are the people that manufactured the transformers, capacitors, heavy electrical equipment? A. Yes. WALLER REPORTING, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000052003 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q, What other discussions were going on. at _ Monsanto concerning -- Strike that. When was the selling of PCB ' s for non-electrical pumps discontinued? A. This depends on the particular application. On August 30th of 1970, we terminated all sales to distributors for one, this is a case where a person in the business of distributing chemicals would buy a few drums. We stopped that because we never knew the end use of that material. We stopped all sales to the varnish, the paint industry, the sealant, the caulking industry, the rubber industry. We began phasing out the carbonless copy paper. But that took a lot more research to find a suitable substitute. So the carbonless copy paper was phased out by mid 1971, as best I recall. The use in hydraulic fluids began phasing out in the middle of 1970, and as best I recall, we succeeded in getting out of the PCB versions about the third quarter of 1971. Had a little delay there of about a quarter. The heat transfer systems, we got out of those by early 1971. Q. Were there any other uses that we haven't talked about? A. I can't think of any at the moment. Q. And if it had been a perfect world and you had your druthers, you would have be out of the PCB business altogether at that point in time? WALLER REPORTING, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000052004 i'jr . ouscn 12 4 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 0r> 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A. Yes. That was the intent, yes. - '~ Q. Now, you talked about having a hold harmless agreement signed by all the different customers. Why did you then discontinue the sale of the product to all the.se different customers that have purchased PCB's after they signed the hold harmless agreement? It looks like I lost you. MR. THOMAS: I think you're confused. Only about a dozen or so companies actually signed the hold harmless agreement and continued to purchase it. We required a substantial financial wherewithal before we would even consider it. A. I didn't mean to confuse you. The hold harmless agreements were signed by those remaining electrical equipment customers on record as of September, October of 1971. All the other uses were terminated. There was no one else. It's was just the electrical use. And as you mentioned, to establish equipment wherewithal, financial wherewithal, in addition Monsanto had to be satisfied they had gotten the message regarding the need to be careful, control these materials. And we underscored that by having a high level representative of the company involved in signing off. Q. (By Mr. Busch) Did you ever have direct - shipments of PCB fluids or direct sales to di.fijferent power WALLER REPORTING, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000052005 Mr. Busch 125 1 companies ? 2 A. Oh, yes. 3 Q. Why were they not included among these groups 4 of people that could buy with hold harmless agreement? 5 A. We sincerely believed it was easitr to 6 influence the dozen or so equipment manufacturers in 7 making sure proper control was instituted. Rather then 8 try to cope with a larger number of companies like 9 utilities, who would on a rare occasion buy a drum or two, 10 we thought cost control under those conditions might slip. 11 And we also suspected tha-t many of them would be reluctant 12 to sign off on these agreements and would create some 13 delays. And we just wanted to do this quickly and 14 efficiently. And we concluded that the best way to do it 15 was through the dozen or so current customers. 16 Q. What kind of financial wherewithal did these 17 companies have to come with up with? 18 A. There was an amount stated, I have forgotten 19 it frankly. 20 Q. Do you have a ballpark idea of how much it 21 was? 22 A. Gosh, a million. I just don't recall 23 exactly. 24 Q. Did they have to post a cash bond, or - 25 A. Some of them did post bo^nd , some of the big WALLER REPORTING, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000052006 1 ones. Of course, we knew that they were -- they had th~e 2 wherewithal. 3 Q. Westinghouse has one or two dollars in the 4 bank ? 5 A. It's that kind':of company that didn't have to 6 impress us with any documents. But the smaller ones had 7 to post bonds or come up with some document certifying 8 that they were capable of doing so. 9 Q. After this program was implimented in 10 February of 1972, did you get many calls from the 11 utitilies saying, why are you doing this to us, or did 12 they kind of just go along with the program? 13 A. We got some calls. I don't know how to 14 quantify the amount. There were some calls, some 15 disappointment, some reluctance to find themselves 16 dependant on their supplier. And there were some cases 17 where the supplier of the original unit had gone out of 18 business. That created the biggest emotion. 19 Q. What did you do in those cases? 20 A. We referred them to General Electric, at 21 Westinghouse, who had commercial departments that did 22 servicing as a business, and they were willing to pick 23 this up. 24 Q- Did you help General Electric and 25 Westinghouse after they signed these hold harmless ___ WALLER REPORTING, INC. ^ WATER PCB-SD0000052007 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 agreements, and get the information out to some of their customers about the safer handling and useage of PCB's? A. I don't know that I helped Westinghouse and even General Electric, not in a direct sense. I got involved with their people in the ANSI committee we talked about earlier. But I did not get on the telephone or make any trips to utilities, and do anything that directly, no. 0- Did you review their information programs, how they are disseminating this information to their customers? A. I reviewed earlier than this, drafts of proposed informational letters they were sending to their customers, which included utility companies as well as industrial plants, motels, hotels, commercial buildings. A variety of customers. I did participate in reviewing their documents. Their message was so much like Monsanto's that I didn't find a need to alter it in any Q. What is the number on that document there? A. 0028 --.I'm sorry Exhibit 18. - Q. Is that a true and correct copy of the letters that were sent out to the different public A. Yes. Q. Do you have any doubt that that letter was WALLER REPORTING, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000052008 Mr. Busch 128 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 senttoPSO? ~ A . No, I do not. (Whereupon, Plaintiff's Deposition Exhibit No. 19 was marked for identification.) Q. I am going to hand you what has been marked Plaintiff's Exhibit No. 19. Can you identify that for us? A. Yes. This is a copy of a letter dated April of 1972, authored and signed by me on Monsanto letterhead, informing the recipient that the federal government through its EPA agency was seeking information that Monsanto considers quite important to the customer. And we were reluctant to divulge it, that we were taking a stand, that included refusal to cooperate. But we felt the pressure mounting and we suspected that we would eventually be forced to divulge that information. And we wanted our customers to be aware of this because many customers are quite sensitive about this sort of data, which reveals an awful lot to the commission. This is why they were sensitive. At the same time, I took an opportunity to again remind them, let's be careful how we handle and store and dispose of this material. The front page is again a copy of the address labels that were typed up to be affixed to the envelopes. And this particular copy shows the reference to Plant Manager, Public Service -- of Oklahoma, P.O. Box 201, Tulsa, Oklahoma, 7-4J.02. WALLER REPORTING, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000052009 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q. You talked about mounting pressure. .What kind of mounting pressure were you getting from EPA? A. There were -- there was a lot of, I'm going to call it, table thumping on the part of EPA representatives. They went'.:to the office of Science and Technology and got Dr. Ed Berger to write us a letter. This is from the office of the President, implying that Monsanto was uncooperative and shouldn't be so, and that we should divulge that data. We agreed to send him a copy if he treated it confidentially. And used it very careful and he refused. We sent it to him registered certified mail, receipt requested. He refused to accept it. We got pressure from congressmen calling our Washington Office, that we were unreasonable in our stand. When I got personal pressure from -- I am going to call them the Environmental Activists, the Berry Commoners, the Audubon Society, which at one time thought we were doing a great job. Came around and said, you did it great, but up to now, why are you so difficult to work with? We need that information so we can go out and find out who is dirtying the environment, that kind of comment. I don't know how else to describe it. But it came from inquiries primarily oral rather than written. Q. In your letter you mention that the potential use a federal prosecutor or federal district attorney, I WALLER REPORTING, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000052010 oV 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 don't recall the exact language right now, how is.that- information conveyed to you? A. Over the telephone. I got this call from an individual in the Kansas City office of EPA, and he - threatened me to turn this office to the Judicial Department for legal action. So I just passed that on for what it was worth. I didn't know if that was a saber rattling, or if there was any substance to his threat. Q. Is that a true and correct copy of the letter that was sent to PSO? A. Yes. Q. Do you have any doubt that PSO received that? A . No . (Whereupon, Plaintiff's Deposition Exhibit No. 20 was marked for identification.) Q. I hand you what has been marked as Plaintiff's Exhibit No. 20. Can you identify that for us? A. It's the copy of aletter Monsanto on letterhead signed by James A. Alley. Andinforming the recipient that starting the last day of August 1977, Monsanto would no longer receive PCB's for incineration. And it listed two companies that were in the business of incinerating as an alternate facility for handling waste FCB's. And the first page is a copy of the mailing label addressed to, Public Service Company of Oklahoma, P.O. Box WALLER REPORTING, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000052011 fi-L . U ui J V- Jl 1 Ji 1 201, Tulsa, Oklahoma, 74102, with the date of August 1st, 2 1977 . 3 Q. Why was that done? Was that because you were 4 shutting down your PCB operations and you had a backlog-of 5 material that needed to be incinerated? 6 A. Those were two good reasons, in addition the 7 unit had reached a point where it needed replacement. It 8 was worn out. And since we were going out of the 9 business, expected to clean up all of the material we had, 10 we decided since there were commercial incinerator 11 services now available, we should not be competing with 12 those. They were in a better position to do the job 13 properly. 14 Q. Are you familiar with that document? 15 A. I had seen it before, yes. 16 Q. Is that a true and correct copy of the letter 17 that was sent? 18 A. I believe so, yes. 19 (Whereupon, Plaintiff's Deposition Exhibit No. 21 20 was marked for identification.) 21 Q. I am going to hand you what has been marked 22 Plaintiff's Exhibit No. 21. Can you identify that for me? 23 A. The first page of this document is a letter 24 on Monsanto letterhead, dated April 20, 1976. Addressed _ 25 to Public Service Company Oklahoma, Tulsa, Oklahoma, WALLER REPORTING, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000052012 A*21 DUS tii 1J6 1 attention Floyd Barnes. The contents of the letter - 2 includes information on how to label drums of material 3 being returned to Monsanto for disposal by incineration. 4 It also designates that the charge will be at 10 cents a. 5 pound, and there will be an'eight dollar drum handling 6 charge. I do not see a closing page with any signatures, 7 so I have to assume something is missing on that letter. 8 MR. THOMAS: We can't find the signature 9 page. 10 A. The second page appears to be a note of a 11 telephone conversation, and it includes Mr. Barnes' name. 12 The fact that two drums of Askarel and gave him the cost 13 10 cents. He said he needed a letter of instructions, and 14 it is dated April 8, 1978. Telephone call 9:05. 15 Q. Do you have any idea what would have been on 16 the second page of that document? 17 A. The second page; certainly the title and 18 signature of the author of this letter would have been 19 there. And typically would be again, a closing statement 20 of, I hope this is helpful. If you need more information, 21 call us. In the meantime, be careful what you do with 22 this stuff . Or words to that effect. That is the 23 typical. I have no way of knowing if that was truly on 24 the original. 25 Q. Are you familiar with this document at all? WALLER REPORTING, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000052013 jj 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A. I had seen it before, yes. - -~ Q. Do you have any doubt that that document was sent to PSO? A. I have no doubt. Q. Do you have any doubt about its authenticity? A . No . (Whereupon, Plaintiff's Deposition Exhibit No. 22 was marked for identification.) Q. I'm going to hand you what has been marked Plaintiff's Exhibit No. 22. Can you identify that please? A. This is a copy of a document entitled, Polychlorinated Biphenyl and the Environment. Issued by the Environmental Task Force on PCB's, Washington, D.C., May 1972. Q. Are you familiar with that document? A. Yes. Q. What kind of standards were put forth in that document? Or what did that document deal with? A. This document attempted to document in summary fashion the available information on PCB's. The uses, the quantities, the toxicity data, the employee health data. Whatever was available as of May 1972. Put together by a task force composed of representatives from many of the federal regulatory agencies. The conclusion . was, as I remember, was that with withdrawal Monsanto WALLER REPORTING, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000052014 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 from many of the uses was supported by this document.., .But the continued use in electrical equipment was understood as being quite necessary. That the benefits from that use far outweighed the risks involved, assuming proper care and control was instituted.^ But at the same time, if I remember correctly, they were encouraging the aggressive studies leading to finding substitutes for these materials . Q. Did it make any recommendations concerning disposal or treatment of PCB's? A. Yes. There were some in there, yes. I have forgotten all the details, but they are in here. Q. Did it make any recommendations about what an acceptable level of PCB would be? A. It's been almost 30 years since I read this. If I remember correctly, there was a reference to a possible acceptable level in water, public water. I don't know -- and there were references to FDA guidelines as to the amounts in milk, baby food as I remember. And in some other food products, a limited list. Q. Was this document later used when they were drafting the Toxic Control Substance Act? A. I don't know personally. But the people who participated in both of those activities, some of them were the same person. They were very much aware of all WALLER REPORTING, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000052015 Mr. Busch 135 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 this . Q. Do you understand what the Toxic Control Substance Act is? A. I believe I do. - Q. Okay. I don't mean to demean, you. by that, I just want to explore what your knowledge is. What chemicals are mentioned by name in that? Or first let's back up. What is the purpose for that act as you understood it? A. The purpose of the act was to give the federal government, through the EPA, the authority via this law, this act, the authority to monitor chemicals to define which of these chemicals can be classified as toxic. And therefore, set standards regarding the amounts that are tolerable in waterways and the air and so on. There were of course many sections to the, act and some of them were really intended to document what is now being used by industry. How many chemicals are known to be in commerce, and a starting point, and then there were provisions for controlling the introduction of new chemicals into commerce, and procedures for doing so. There is also a provision in this act for informing the authorities of any new information regarding the toxicity of a chemical or harm it may have done. New data. The only chemical mentioned specifically was PCB'st WALLER REPORTING, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000052016 Mr. Busch 136 1 Q. Of all the chemicals in the world? * 2 A . Correct. 3 (Whereupon, Plaintiff's Deposition Exhibit No. 23 4 was marked for identification.) t 5 Q. I am going to hand you what has been marked 6 Plaintiff's Exhibit No. 23. Can you identify that for us? 7 A. This appears to be a copy of the American 8 National Standard Guidelines for handling and disposal of 9 capacitor and transformer grade Askarels, containing 10 polychlorinated biphenyls. With the ANSI logo and address 11 in New York. 12 Q. Now, did youparticipate in this preparation? 13 A. I did. 14 Q. What was your position? 15 A. I was chairman of the group that drafted 16 this. 17 Q. Who sat on the committee with you? 18 A. There were representatives of the Electrical 19 Equipment Manufacturers. Representatives of the companies 20 that service electrical equipment. There were 21 representatives from utilities. Representatives from the 22 government, some of the department agencies. I think that 23 covers the general make up of the group. 24 Q. Of the members that were there representing -- 25 utilities, were any of those members employees.or WALLER REPORTING, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000052017 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 principals in the Central and Southwest Power Group of Public Service of Oklahoma? A. Not to my knowledge. Q. Do you know how the information in these _ standards were disseminated? A. In each of the representatives that participated, and they are listed in the forward to this document. Plus others ordered copies of this document and enough were printed, and I remember box loads being shipped to these people. And the intent was to distribute them to their organizations for further distribution. Q. Do you know if that document ever reached Public Service Company of Oklahoma? A. I don't know personally that a copy actually reached them, no. Q. Do you believe a copy was given to PSO? A. I have no reason to believe a copy was not available to either that utility or its associate parent companies. Q. Did your committee publicize the fact that these standards had been developed? A. I don't know how to define publicized. It was no big secret. The government knew what we were doing. In fact, had representatives sitting in on this. I was the talk in the industry so to speak. Everybody was WALLER REPORTING, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000052018 Mr. Busch 138 1 asking what is going on and hurry up. These kinds of 2 comments. We did not buy any newspapers to advertise it 3 or publicize, no. 4 Q. I was talking more about the public 5 utilities, power utilities? ,, 6 A. I personally know Mr. Langenfeld who was one 7 of the utility representatives. And there is nothing in 8 our contacts with each other to lead me to believe he was 9 not communicating back to the group that he represented. 10 Q. Which group did he represent? 11 A. Electric Light and Power Group, which I'm 12 told represented utilities. 13 Q. What kind of standard development was the 14 substance of those standards? 15 A. They are quite complex. It addressed -- 16 Q. Let me back up. Is it broken down into 17 different categories? 18 A. Well, there are two primary categories. One 19 addresses the transformer application. And the other, the 20 capacitor application. There are many sections that apply 21 to both. The circumstances are identical. It attempts to 22 highlight the need for control. It refers to changes of 23 leakages during shipping and during use, during disposal, 24 during servicing. It tries to give some idea of proper - 25 method of disposal. It cautions against improper WALLER REPORTING, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000052019 I'i X PUD Z> 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 . 21 22 23 24 25 disposal. It touches on reclaimation where possible. - I-t , off course, touches on employee exposure. Where I said it even talks about the hand cream they use, or the gloves they use. I don't know how else to describe it, other _ than from just reading from':this. It talks about sampling. Q. Since we are dealing with transformers here, let's just strictly stick with the transformers. What kinds of sampling requirements did it place on trans formers. MR. LEWIS: Mike, your voice is almost gone. I can hardly hear you. Q. (By Mr. Busch) I was asking him what kind of sampling requirements were placed upon transformers? A. Since it has been over 20 years since I have read this, I would have to brouse through it and find the section and read it, which speaks for itself really. I don't know -- should I do that? Q. No, I think that would probably take too much time. Do you consider that document to be authoritative as to that 1972, as to the standards that were in the industry and throughout the country concerning transformers, and the different topics that you have talked about concerning the transformer? _ A. Definitely, yes. WALLER REPORTING, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000052020 Mr. ouscn 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q. How much time and effort went into the ~ preparation of that document? A. Two years of elapsed time. I would guess that there were 50 individuals involved, some more than others. The two chairman plus their, let me call them secretaries of the committees, who did all of the writing, spent many, many hours. It was never documented we never clocked this, but I don't know how to quantify it, except that it was a major effort. It's got to be at least a dozen man hours of effort. Q. You're talking about a major project then? A. It was as major project. It was a first, you had to consider many, many different view points and interests. Q. Do you consider the conclusions that were made in that document at that point in time, to be free from serious doubts or mistakes as to the accuracies of the statements that are made in there? A. I do, yes. Q. In preparing Plaintiff's Exhibits No. 23, did you use what has been marked Plaintiff's Exhibit No. 22, the Polychlorinated Biphenyls in the Environment Interdepartmental Report? A. Yes. - Q. Did you consider it to be authoritative? WALLER REPORTING, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000052021 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A . Yes . Q. Are there any other works written that you consider to be authoritative? A. I ' in not aware of any documents that would t have covered this total area. This is the very reason this document was proposed, frankly. There's an absence of such a document. As to authoritative documents, there were documents that were consulted in the sessions held by the committees, that were in-house documents of the participant's companies. I remember seeing those. In fact, Monsanto's bulletins on the use of Askarels in electrical equipment, was a source document. But the data in that had predated 1970, so it had to be updated. So in a way, I would suggest that there were other in-house documents that could be referred to as authoritative. Q. Now, would it be fair to say, that the substance of these ANSI guidelines would be to minimize the possibility as much as humanly as possible of the release of PCB's into the environment; whether into water, air or surface? \v " A. That is it exactly. Q. Why was that being done? MR. LEWIS: Mike, are you on another document there, or are are you on the ANSI Standards? MR. BUSCH: We are on the ANSI Standard, WALLER REPORTING, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000052022 Mr. Busch 142 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Michael. '' MR. LEWIS: Is that 23? MR. BUSCH: 23, yes. A. There was a growing perception and the need for a document that could be used by anyone involved with PCB containing electrical equipment. Some of the bigger electrical manufacturing companies attempted to do this on a one-on-one personal basis with each of their customers. And they have found it somewhat awkward, in that there was just so many varying problems that they couldn't -- they didn't feel comfortable that they were communicating adequately as much as they tried. At one point, it was decided that perhaps we ought to get together as an industry, the electrical manufacturing industry, and put together our collective thoughts, and get wide circulation. And then it dawned on them that just talking to each other, the electrical manufacturers under the auspices of NEMA, the National Electrical Manufacturers Association was not good enough. They had -- they felt they had to have representation from the utilities, as an example, and from government and from the service companies, and Monsanto. Many of these were not members of NEMA. They couldn't be. This is why the ANSI organization was selected. To get the lowest possible coverage and also the opportunity for introducing the WALLER REFORTING, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000052023 U* O l A J 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 standards to the International Standards Institute, for world wide use. That was the thing when it was first started. I don't know if that answered your question, but there was a need felt for a document of this kind. And it became a matter of which is":the best way to go about preparing such a document. And making certain that the distribution was as widespread as practical. Q. What documents did you review in preparing for your deposition today? A. I reviewed the labels that we just looked at. And I saw from across the table the copy of the Interdepartmental Task Force Report and the ANSI reports. And I recognized them from that distance. That is all. Q. Are you familiar with the facts in this particular lawsuit at all? A. I am familiar with some of it. Frankly, I don't remember all the details, no. Q. Could you refresh me on what you're familiar with? A. I'll try. It seems there are some individuals who feel that in either being present in a building, or responding to a fire, or explosion in that building, they were exposed to fumes and smoke, and soot and chemicals unknown to them. And they feel that they - have been harmed. I also understand there's ^.restaurant, WALLER REPORTING, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000052024 1 a small restaurant nearby, the owners of whom feel their 2 business has been permanently harmed and their source of 3 income has been damaged. And that is about all I really 4 understand of this situation. 5 Q. Okay. Have yod' reviewed any of the samples 6 that were taken from the soot that was a result of the 7 aftermath of this particular fire? 8 A . No . 9 Q. Are you familiar with dioxins and furans, 10 dibenzofuras? 11 A. To a point, yes . 12 Q. Assuming that there was the Interteen 70-30 13 being used in that transformer, would you expect to see 14 dioxins and dibenzofurans produced? 15 MR. THOMAS: Produced from what? 16 MR. LEWIS: I didn't hear what you said. 17 Q. (By Mr. Busch) I'm sorry, John. I said, 18 assume that there was Interteen 70-30 being used in this 19 particular transformer that faulted. Would you expect to 20 see dioxins and dibenzofurans to be produced as a result 21 of this transformer failure? 22 A. You're asking me to speculate? 23 Q. Yes. 24 A. Because I frankly don't know the conditions. 25 Temperatures, air pressure, so many other things that -- WALLER REPORTING, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000052025 ial . 1i-> U. C ii 14D 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 and even if I knew more detail, that still would be ~ ~ speculating. In a situation like that, gosh, you can almost reach the point where almost anything is possible. Q. That really doesn't answer the question. What type of conditions need to be present to produce dioxins and dibenzofurans? A. Weil, I can't claim that I'm a total authority on dioxins and furans, but you need the biphenyl group as a configuration, and you need oxygen, and the i oxygen has got to be able to attach itself in the right positions to form dioxin and furan. I personally don't know the conditions in terms of temperatures and pressures it takes to do that. I am personally convinced that you can't go from PCB to dioxin. Because oxygen cannot get in the right position to form the dioxin molecule. The PCB would break up into some other chemicals. I thought of this long and hard, and I pursued all the literature and no one has demonstrated this can be done, which re-enforces my belief that it is not possible via that route. I don't know what else to add to this. There just to my knowledge, have not been any studies to establish the conditions it takes to create these kinds of chemicals with transformer fluids. Q. Now, you said it's not possible to produce dioxins and furans from PCB's? WALLER REPORTING, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000052026 1 MR. THOMAS: No . 2 A. I didn't say furans. 3 Q. (By Mr. Busch) Dioxins. Is it possible to 4 produce dioxins with the -- I'm sorry, it's the end of the 5 day. The 30 percent portion of energy that's the 6 chlorinal benzenes, do they allow the oxygen to get into 7 the right position? 8 A. There is no interference with the benzenes 9 sitting there with the chlorines. And depending again on 10 the position of those three and four chlorines around the 11 six carbon ring, it's possible that you could add an 12 oxygen to one of the benzenes. And that benzene connects 13 to the other benzenes to form the dioxin, but that is 14 never been to my knowledge demonstrated this way. This is 15 not the way dioxins are formed in the laboratory for study 16 purposes. 17 Q. How are they formed in a laboratory for study 18 purposes? 19 A. I used to know. Frankly, I've forgotten. 20 It's a very complex, arduous procedure to get a few grams. 21 I don't remember. 22 Q. In your experience in working with the 23 dialectric fluids, when there's a failure of a 24 transformer, would you expect to find dioxins and furans? 25 Even though you may not in your mind be convinced of the WALLER REPORTING, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000052027 _ 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 method of production? * --- A. Would I expect, again, depends on the conditions. Q. Let me ask you this. Are you familiar with any of the PCB transformer failures like the one at Market Plaza or Binghamton, New York? A. I am familiar that the incidents occurred. I'm aware of some of the allegations. I have not personally been involved, or regarding the products of all this reaction and combustion, or partial combustion, whatever happened. Q. You're not familiar with the by products of those combustions? A. No. I have no reports, no. Q. Are you familiar with any of the people that did the sampling and the surveys in those particular incidents? A . No . Q. Is it possible to produce furans from the combustion of PCB's? A. I could speculate and say it is possible, yes. But I have no concrete chemical evidence this could be demonstrated. Q. So, would it surprise you if furans were found as one of the combustion by products of this WALLER REPORTING, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000052028 1 particular transformer incident? You haven't been asked 2 that one before . 3 A. You asked me if it would surprise me. 4 Probably not, but I would feel much better if I had an _ 5 analysis made personally. 6 Q. What do you mean by an analysis made? 7 A. If the belief that some clorinated furan are 8 present, there are ways to sample and analyze. And 9 somebody determining without a doubt in truth, this is the 10 kind of furans that was there. 11 Q. I'm sorry, I missed -- I got you confused on 12 my question. If I were to show you test results that show 13 that there was the presence of dioxins and furans, and at 14 this time, I'm talking just about furans and the standard 15 EPA sampling methodology and then that sample was run 16 through a high resolution gaspromatograph, and was found 17 to have produced furans, would that surprise you? 18 A. I would tend to believe the laboratory report 19 if I was comfortable that. They also conducted 20 appropriate validations as to confirm that they weren't 21 seeing an artifact. I have no reason at that point to 22 doubt that a good laboratory did a good job, and their 23 report. Yes, I would have to believe that. 24 Q. Are you familiar with the laboratories that 25 I.T. Corporation uses? Are you familiar with I.T.'s WALLER REPORTING, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000052029 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 laboratories? '. ' ~ A. I am family with I.T. I am familiar with only one of their labs in Knoxville. I'm not familiar withtheirotherfacilities. Q. Are you familiar with Patell labs? A. Which ones, the Columbia? Q. The Columbia Ohio lab? A. Yes, I have had some contact with that lab. It's a reputable laboratory. Q. How about the I.T. labs in Knoxville, Tennessee ? A. When I was working with them I had high respect for them. Q. Now, we talked earlier about jumping on you about the studies that were done on the Holly Farms chickens, where you had a low birth rate or a low hatch rate of the eggs, as well as some other problems found with the chickens after their expose to your the PCB's. Are you familiar with the YUSHO oil, rice oil incident? A. Yes. . Q. Are you familiar with the studies that came from that particular? A. Somewhat. Q. When did that exposure occur? - A. 1968. _ WALLER REPORTING, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000052030 I'J L . DUbLJi 15U 1 Q. What type of problems were experienced by -the 2 people that were exposed to the that rice oil? 3 A. There was nausea. There was some infants 4 born with brown pigmentation. There was some skin 5 eruptions. This chlorance we talked about earlier. A 6 tired, fatigued feeling was reported. A general malaise 7 among many of the people exposed. I don't recall any S others. Doesn't mean there weren't some more. 9 Q. Which are the findings that were documented 10 in the YUSHO reports, did they confirm findings that had 11 been found with animal studies? 12 A. Animal studies with what chemical? 13 Q. I'm sorry, good question. With PCB's? 14 MR. LEWIS: I didn't hear that question. Was 15 that a question? 16 Q. (By Mr. Busch) Did the human systems found 17 in YUSHO, confirm findings that were of the disabilities 18 of the animal studies that the animal studies produced? 19 That is a poor paraphrasing of it. 20 MR. LEWIS: Are you talking about PCB's here? 21 Q. (By Mr. Busch) We aretalking about PCB's. 22 A. No. 23 Q. How did they differ? 24 A. In the rat studies as an example, at the high... 25 dose levels as I remember, a hundred parts pet million in WALLER REPORTING, INC. .^ WATER PCB-SD0000052031 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 their food everyday of their lives, the rats exhibited.a slower gain in weight. That doesn't mean they didn't gain any weight, they weren't as heavy as the control group. They also had enlarged livers. Those were the symptoms, noted with the rat. With the chickens, at the higher - at a fairly low level of exposure of the lower chlorinated PCB's, we saw this thin egg shell hatchability problem, which is difficult to equate to a human condition. We did not get any reports from the laboratory that the rats were exhibiting any malaise. That they were inactive or sickly looking, or their fur -- that they looked bad, or had any of the symptoms you might associate with human actions, not feeling quite right. Q. Let me stop you just a second. But weren't those findings found in the Holly Farms chickens exposure and the New York chicken exposure? A. Which findings? Q. Of the general malaise of the chickens? A. Yes, they did. But again we have no idea of the levels of exposure. But those findings were not evidence in the Monsanto chick studies. Q. i I'm sorry, when I was referring to the animal studies, I was referring to all the animal studies in general, as opposed to just the Monsanto. A. I was referring to the formal control studies WALLER REPORTING, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000052032 Mr. DUSCfl i bA 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 as distinguished from the infected flocks. *~ Q. If we go back and say we take all the studies, do the findings that were found in the humans, understand that you can't have a perfect match up because people are not chickens, but are the findings relatively similar? A. I find it hard to agree with that, because I know that the FDA sent Dr. Herbert Blummenthal to Japan to personally study this YUSHO incident. And also know that the final report there came out of the Japanese studies, implicated clorinated furans as being the source of the sicknesses that were described as distinguished from PCB's. So, I really don't know if the Holly Farms cases were entirely PCB's, as I kind of wanted to imply earlier, PCB's was part of it. But in my mind, I'm suspicious of other things that are unknown to us. Q. Were there any formal studies done on furans and animals that you know of? A. I don't know of any. Q. Let's back this up then. The YUSHO exposure, whether it is PCB's or furans, are the symptoms relatively the same, or the findings relatively the same as to the animal studies, whether formal or informal, that you know of? - A. Concerning either PCB's or furans^ I find it WALLER REPORTING, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000052033 Mr. Buscn 153 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 kind of hard to equate human ailments with observed ' symptoms in a flock of chickens. I suppose one could see some similarities, but it's very difficult to ask a chicken how it feels and is it nauseated. t Q. Understanding the limitations the - A. The two populations were sick is really all we know. And this did not appear in the controlled studies. Q. Is there any doubt in your mind that either the PCB's or some other potential by product, as an example being furans or some of the other products of PCB's, caused the illnesses seen in these groups? A. Well, the only doubt is that I don't know what other chemicals were there not associated with PCB's at all. I don't know enough about what was in that oil. Because it could be chemicalreactions between the ingredients in the oil itself, and the PCB's, and the furans, or whatever else is there. I just have never seen anywhere the total analysis of what was in this rice oil. rice bran oil. Q. Were any other chemicals found in there besides PCB's, and benzofurans? A. I's like to know that was in mercury metal -- Q. I'm not talking about the hypothetical - questions that you would like to have answered- If the WALLER REPORTING, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000052034 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9. 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 study was done was anything else found in there besides- the PCB's and the furans and dioxins? A. In the Japanese studies? Q. In the Japanese studies? - A. I have not seen any reports, looked at anything else. Q. Do you know how much time was spent on preparation of those particular reports? A. I would say that -- the accident occurred in 1968, the final reports didn't come out until 1972, 1973. It took a long time, and they were still coming out even after that. There were follow-up reports. I believe they are still following or studying the people exposed. So, it's not finished. Q. Can you agree with this statement thatit is important not to allow PCB's to be relayed into the environment ? A. Definitely. Q. Can you agree with the statement that itis important not to allow PCB's to get into feed, food stuffs, or pharmaceuticals? A. Yes. Q. Can we agree that there has been both in animal studies and some human studies, some indication of harmful side effects from either PCB's or furans? WALLER REPORTING, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000052035 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A. We can agree. If we keep in mind that we- have to know the levels, the conditions of exposures. Q. Given all that and how many years of experience you have had with PCB's, since 1969 your ,, working with PCB's, do you have an opinion as to whether or not it would be a breach of a standard to allow PCB's to escape from a transformer vault given the body of 'knowledge that was out there in 1983, late 1983, early 1984? A. To allow -- the whole thrust of these programs was to keep PCB's out of the environment. Recognizing that this could not practically be defined as every single molecule, which implies that there must be some minimal amount that is tolerable. And that is supported by the fact that after 40 years or so of PCB's, many workers in the manufacturer of PCB's and the transformation, and the use and equipment and so on out there -- must have been exposed to PCB's at some levels. Q. But I'm talking about just the release of PCB's from an open vault, or a -- let me rephrase that. A grated vault? A. Well, the whole intent purpose of the program was to control it so that would not happen. Q. So if there were relatively simple measures that could have been taken to sealing that vault off or WALLER REPORTING, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000052036 Mr. Busch 156 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 contain that vault similar to your taking that smaller ~ leaky barrel of PCB ' s and putting it into a larger steel drum to help control that, do you have an opinion as to whether or not there was a breach of your standards? - A. I find it awkward to second guess.. But I would suggest that if I used your expression, if I believe your expression or take into account your expression of a relatively simple way to do it, yes. I would say if it is relatively simple and is obvious, it would be helpful, it should have been done. But I -- Q. Let me ask you this. Do you find a grate to be an effective retaining instrument for a cloud? A. No, I can't say I do. Q. Can you think of some other relatively simple method to contain fumes within a vault? You being an engineer and I'm not. A. I have a definition of a vault that may differ. Q. What is your definition of a vault? A. A vault to me, is a totally enclosed sealed room. Like a bank vault or a vault designed for controlling fires and the like, which have limited entry ways and limited venting capacity that is controlled. Otherwise, the defintion of vault doesn't seem to apply. It becomes just another room or a pit, or a tr-ench. There WALLER REPORTING, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000052037 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 are many other words that would Q. Let me rephrase it then. MR. THOMAS: Your definition would be an open grated transformer. It's referred to as a vault here. _ Meets the criteria of a vault according to you? A. Not as I understood it, no. Q. (By Mr. Busch) Would you consider a grated pit to be -- to comply with your standards to minimize the release of PCB's into the environment? A. Yes, but I have to qualify that. In my thinking at that time, when we were active in those programs, we were addressing PCB ' s in normal use, normal disposal. This committee at no time addressed the situation of an explosion of a unit. And this was discussed and deliberately set aside for the equipment manufacturers to address this as a separate issue. Q. Do you know if the equipment manufacturers did in fact do that? A. I have not seen any documents that would support this, but I was continued to be lead to believe that they were addressing it. That is. all I know. Q. From 1972, up through 1983, December of 1983, was there a continuing growing body of knowledge concerning the use of PCB's and the handling of PCB's, and the disposal of PCB's in general? WALLER REPORTING, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000052038 Mr. Busch 158 1 A. The body of knowledge was continuing'to grow, 2 yes. 3 Q. Did the industry, whether the electrical 4 power industry, or the electrical manufacturing industry 5 become more sophisticated over that period of _time? 6 A. I don't know that I'm qualified to comment on 7 that. I did not follow that intimately. I can only speak 8 for the years 1972 to 1976. And I know, if you will, that 9 there was a lot of interest, a lot of knowledge. Not only 10 generated, but disseminated. Whatever after that, I do 11 not know. 12 Q. I am going to make one more run at this and 13 then I'll be through. A transformer pit, can we agree, a 14 transformer pit, an open transformer pit could potentially 15 allow the escape and release of PCB's into the 16 environment? 17 A. Once the PCB ' s left the sealed unit, the 18 potential is there for escape. 19 Q. Given that possibility, is an open vault the 20 best state of the art method to contain PCB's in that 21 vault in that transformer? 22 A. In my considered opinion, I find open vault 23 kind of -- it doesn't seem to fit. Because in my mind, a 24 vault can't be opened. 25 Q. An opened pit, a grated pit? WALLER REPORTING, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000052039 Mr . buscn 159 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 S 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A. A grated pit. As I said previously, -once 'the PCB's left the confines of the piece of equipment, an open pit could lead to escape to the environment. Q. Do you feel that it is very difficult to transform a grated pit to a'proper vault? _ A. Again, you're asking me to speculate not following all the details. Just the physical facilities in themselves, what they consisted of, whether it is practical at all. Q. What information would you need to know? A. Gosh, I need to know once you seal that vault is there enough cooling capacity in the area to cool that transformer down. Would you have to enlarge it to get enough air in there to cool that unit, because it is going to get over heated. And you might say, let's add fans. Well, the minute you put blowers in there, and if there's a leak, you're going to start moving vaporized material with that air. There again, it's going to go somewhere unless at the end of that stack, or vent, you have got a capturing device of some kind so the PCB's don't get into the atmosphere. I don't know what else to add except that I need more information. Just putting a roof over that pit may create other problems. Q. Okay. Is a grated pit state of the art? - A. In as far as what? -' WALLER REPORTING, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000052040 Mr . Bus eft 160 1 Q. A transformer facility? How can a pit be 2 state of the art, a grated pit? You just mentioned a 3 number of different things that could be done. Having 4 something to capture the PCB' s at the end of a -- can it 5 realistically be state of the art? 6 A. If it is only intended to catch liquid drips, 7 and these liquid drips are managed properly, they are 8 picked up frequently, the drip is repaired, or the seal, 9 that sealed off, and it could go on for decades and no 10 problem occur. But as I said earlier, if the liquid 11 leaves the confines of that sealed unit and it is hot 12 enough to cause vapors, or it is propelled by something, 13 it is going to go through that grate. Then it gets into 14 this environment. 15 Q. It is possible for transformers to have 16 vapors leave them? 17 A. Only if they have a fault of some sort. Not 18 when they are working properly. 19 Q. But we can agree it is possible for the PCB's 20 to leave the transformer? 21 A. When some defect occurs. 22 Q. So given the fact that it is possible that 23 the vapor can leave the transformer, is a grated pit the 24 stateoftheart? 25 A . No. WALLER REPORTING, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000052041 Mr. Busch 161 1 Q. Thank you. I have no future questions. 2 MR . RUPERT: Does anyone have any questions 3 on the telephone line there? 4 MR. LEWIS: I am not going to ask any 5 questions at this time 6 MR . RUPERT: Are you John? 7 MR . TUCKER: Same for IT. 8 MR . RUPERT: I believe that means we are 9 done . 10 MR . THOMAS: We have no questions. The 11 witness will read and sign it. 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 WALLER REPORTING, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000052042 Mr. Busch XO A 1 2 WILLIAM B. PAPAGEORGE, P.E. 3 4 Subscribed to before me this, 19 9 0. 5 6 7 (Notary Public.) 8 9 My commission expires: 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 WALLER REPORTING, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000052043 Computer-Aided Transcription NOTARIAL CERTIFICATE STATE OF OKLAHOMA ) ) CITY OF ST. LOUIS ) . I, CATHERINE WINKELER, a Certified Court Reporter and a duly commissioned Notary Public within and for the State of Missouri,':do hereby certify that pursuant to agreement there came before me at the offices of Adams Mark Hotel, 4 th and Chestnut, St. Louis, MO 63102. WILLIAM B. PAPAGEORGE, P.E., who was by me first duly sworn to testify to the truth and nothing but the truth of all knowledge touching and concerning the matters in controversy in this cause; that the witness was thereupon carefully examined under oath and said examination was reduced to writing by me; that the signature of the witness was not waived by agreement of all parties; and that this deposition is a true and correct record of the testimony given by the witness. I further ce rtify that I am neither attorney nor counsel for nor related nor employed by any of the parties to the action in which this deposition is taken; further, that I am not a relative or employee of any attorney or counsel employed by the parties hereto or financially interested in this action. IN WITNESS WHEREOF, I have hereunto set my hand and seal on June 28, 1990. My commission expires February 22, 1991. [Notary Public] WALLER REPORTING, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000052044 PAGE OF ^ f *P* <rfC0'rej e_ "NAME OF WITNESS DEPOSITION CORRECTION SHEET J-j-i e ' LanruS S 'e'f # / l/t? T^ohl/c 'Script' c, Company c> ^ 0k. /<? h own e In re: Upon reading the deposition and before subscribing thereto, the deponent indicated the following changes should be made: Page G Page (p Page Cp Page Page 7 Line 7 Should read: , _ Pretfom / n/a /C /f<iyy CC h* enrj > CCf / Reason for change: cc? n rec'f u/Orcf, Line (3 Should read: ChefrtfcpK/s-L/c 5 hhem i/tScj$]Pes Reason for change: J- tn c~e> n n <?c / CO O nof Line 17 Should read: - - On~ C-0n>7 b/n/t'/j C h e mi / e. o f$ ~Co Reason for change: -Oyt <^orr<?c{ co>c?re7 Line Should read: z.< {----------- In +h& Ch qr a d-c r / *=>//C 5 C& - - - Reason for change: c, o n y* ^ c 'f' Op O y~ed S Line Yc? Should read: cvSre CeUcfcc/ Reason for change: C- /c( n -f< 1 deyoemctmey _- _ SIGNAT--URE O-F WEITTNNEESS WATER PCB-SD0000052045 PAGE Z-"9- OF / 2" __ f ''f NAME OP~WITNESS" DEPOSITION CORRECTION SHEET j?e,' Lctnnt'z Savj,4-*-7 af i^Pvbhc Service. Company Op OtU hatm q eS Q I In re: Upon reading the deposition and before subscribing thereto, the deponent indicated the following changes should be made: Page /V Line Should read: 18*, <c/ -------- // uss Reason for change: /<rsy Page Page /& Page /r Page (8 Line /V Should read: d(<2 (ecf-rtC. Reason for change: Line h ' Should read: l 8 ------------ Cpplt*o U #H r ' -Mti\ ^drc(J appcarr,na> `5nfs7t> cyf detrf r/ e> rzt -h Oi^ - -- - Reason for change: "5 pe. 11tr-KJ Line Should read: SO -- ----------- Reason for change: C. r~/ ~t~p // / 5 q/r (Z&o/ec/ , Line // Should read: -- -- - hCc^t (S dtS pc, -f-Ccrf----- - Reason for change: S>ppee.//A11ncj CCdxdcu^t.- $ SIGNATURE OF WI[TTNNEESSSS ___ WATER PCB-SD0000052046 PAGE VIi Il/ffrr? fupf<C#''f , 'name"oF`witness"" * DEPOSITION CORRECTION SHEET e^j~af ? 5 ~Pobl,(_ Service Company <2 t Ok. (a hom q -e b Q / In re: Upon reading the deposition and before subscribing thereto, the deponent indicated the following changes should be made: Page 22 Page 2</ Page 28 Page 3 G> Page (& Line (C Should read: C.l-e#tr h y c- -C/utcf ~ -- Reason for change: 21^-7 <^o yy~eeC Lc>o vof Line 2 2- Should read: <W Ci'/e. -e. fpenente e---------- Reason for change: C. r i Line / Ca Should read: ^ef-rct C.h/omo befoe. 5 -- -- - Reason for change: *5 pe {//ntj Line / `-f Should read: -------- CO-f-f-O >'7 bo ff use <s v, / Reason for change: `b pe-/ f/ f-i 7 Line [ tf Should read: v fone-bfoy/ p<% ra ffi /0 >7 Reason for change: pc / // rp C/pi. SIGNATURE~OF~WITNES"s WATER PCB-SD0000052047 PAGE V -- OF l "2-- w/4^ 5 name~of"witness "" e-' DEPOSITION CORRECTION SHEET 1W e. . f-4nnt 5 *5^7i-lli e / <s-/ (Ap Pobhc "Sere? ic<6I>mp#ny o/Cfahom q 6?/ O. / In res Upon reading the deposition and before subscribing thereto, the deponent indicated the following changes should be made: Page 36 Page 37 Page Vo Page *-/3 Page 46 Line 2.6 Should read: Cf/"5> & /5 O 5 V ~ -- Reason for change: C fan ha. Line Should read: -ffctfcPeS o ty C----- Reason for change: "34^ aa ec/ <3 rel. Line V Should read: un < ^< he 5 -- -- --- Reason for change: l^vn ao r y euo O r~cf Line (o Should read: ---------- i-hai~ TT ooa 5 #bte^ Reason for change: c.0 r r e c.t aooref Line ~7 Should read: OcjCfht~ ~f~ Coordinate^------ -- Reason for change: ~XaaC-Orr^ct ___ OP'td, (/3 SIGNATURE OF WITNESS WATER PCB-SD0000052048 PAGE 5Z OF ^ Pe C a n o / 5 $/?7 i't'h e~/~ cf / H'Jilham 3 3c(paeje&s-ij NAMi~oF~ WITNESS ~ rfysb//c Sr risic -e. Col npa ny O olcLW ho> c. b Q / DEPOSITION CORRECTION SHEET In re; Upon reading the deposition and before subscribing thereto, the deponent indicated the following changes should be made: Page HI Page H8 Page trj Page 5~ S' Page S-7 Line V Should read: CO O 5 / O o *?Q Reason for change; Tv,wrrct/ a nScvzr. .r nr<^ COOS h>cp*r,ve{ /Of y0 -ny Line H Should read: O-f nOuO d e (/ e, lop m?n h bej - -- -- Reason for change: ~L-n co r rec.f to Gref* Line 2, 3 Should read: be CV rne-s ^ 0~f If f& ------- Reason for change: ~12 rt corded coo ref Line 2, 3 Should read: no -er/h Oca/ ves r -ho pt'/D5e- ecu noros -- Reason for change: ~C-oo cco r o ec~f~ uuorh Line f1 Should read: -- ---- an of bad proI ecT"o Reason for change: X-w co rreeb to o red _Cfo (0 (A `signature of"witness WATER PCB-SD0000052049 PAGE IX W;\L S NAMl~0irWITNisS '" 11^7 DEPOSITION CORRECTION SHEET Latomts 5a>7//^ a/ h>hc 5'r Company & CJk'/a ho-mcf C 4-a / In re: Upon reading the deposition and before subscribing thereto, the deponent indicated the following changes should be made: Page &8 Page 7 5- Page 7 6- Page 75 Page 7 [ Line 2. Should read: byphen /$ a^c/ Reason for change: ~L^tc.orrec4 ujOtrcf .v oT ( & Line 8 Should read: C L)e./-c 4c. "bC-dD^d $^7c-e. j Reason for change: C. fa /-/ ~l~iy Line /V Should read: ?cDF$----------------------- -- - Reason for change: x `bpc t f/ rlty Line Z. 3 Should read: F r 4~ Reason for change: pe /(/Py pcibb's -- -- -- Line Z Should read: 4-1 s q Cop<y Reason for change: Clcir i i-tj "signaturTof witness WATER PCB-SD0000052050 PAGE 7 -- OF / 2- \M,U, aw S P, pay-cory e_ "name^oFwitSess " ` P-`-*'7 e. DEPOSITION CORRECTION SHEET Sml'Hi e.bct/ ir-o TGbhc Service G>mpaoy of OkUct horyic/ e f~ a In res Upon reading the deposition and before subscribing thereto, the deponent indicated the following changes should be mades Page 84 Page Page /oG Page / <b Page ilG Line $ Should read: ______propo r / m C t rterct ft 0^/ cf ^ ^ ^5 Reason for change: coords Line is" Should read: -/e? prodobeli' t rt fr>vyt forty Reason for change: corr-ecf ujord Line te Should read: -- - -Pnerfee* ? Po----------- Reason for change: <5 pel hoy Line Should read: The. 6HI of fadtdny------ ------ Reason for change: IPn corr^ c f" coord Line Should read: ---------fo uny* of proper------------- Reason for change: Uncorrect ocOrd " "~SIGNATURF7>F"wiTNisS~^ ' WATER PCB-SD0000052051 PAGE U/,75. ^p^^ NAME OF WITNESS " " 'X, &: DEPOSITION CORRECTION SHEET 5^;-h, e-t-a/ ^ Tubl/c Secure , <bbrr,f*r>y ob Orffahe^O -e. / / In re: Upon reading the deposition and before subscribing thereto, the deponent indicated the following changes should be made: Page /'? Page (U Page / 2./ Page /' 2^ Page / 2-/ Line 2- Should read :v ( --- -- -- / n -(com a /? O *t dio Reason for change: -2-t7 Co rr^cf coord- Line // Should read: frj I(crft'0* ^ and Me/"</- Reason for change: correct uoDrds Line /rf Should read: , - - -- ii/dl #s cdcsfec-tn'c, dtcsic/Sj 6aT Reason for change: ~Jrft co rrec. / toOrd Line is Should read: ----------/outer rob rl'cj s t Reason for change: c_ /eiri by ~^ ^ urib-------------- ------ Line - / (o Should read: - - - Ur be* / f~ ou a 5 retro t~r t/erf - -- Reason for change: C- /?/'/i~i 7 "signature~of~witSess ou WATER PCB-SD0000052052 PAGE OF / 2- ' VJ;IL* 8 lap* namS"of~witness ^ Be'. DEPOSITION CORRECTION SHEET 6ann/^ 5/n /d~ <% { i/~o ^ubhc <SerutcL, Company Ztio/kHa horn# .~fc( / In re? Upon reading the deposition and before subscribing thereto, the deponent indicated the following changes should be made? Page / Z Z- Page IZ.3 Page Page /2~ 5*" Page /Z (o Line /o Should read: -j to e Cine. Reason for change: "Z<ncorned uj Ord Line 3 Should read: -- - - non- ,, \ / >S C5 d/5 card/ a uCat Reason for change: ~sy\ <cor red ujOrci Line l? Should read: ~j Reason for change: Cfarib? f~o Co id7 bhshe.o/ -.y ui'pme n~t man^ft/cfurt Line /q Should read: Coe* dt-j o o <f h1~ CO-yidr'ol cyndcr ~ _ Reason for change: CZ*lq ri ~t y Line 2 0. Should read: __ --------- (5-encra( d(ecf-r/c, and Reason for change: ^ corned OUQrd 63 dyt* signature^of""witne S S WATER PCB-SD0000052053 PAGE /<7 0F ji-- . \Aj; (hary? & H paqco^ namS oFwitness DEPOSITION CORRECTION SHEET L-Qmnt'* S/mpti c-hal \ao pc/bhc, *5er<nc-e-. ^ Ofct# ha/y?ci e.i~ o. / In res Upon reading the deposition and before subscribing thereto, the deponent indicated the following changes should be mades Page tZ8 Page I -bo Page /3 7 Page / 38 Page / 3^ Line /Sr Should read: -------- -fo ~h Reason for change: ~JL~y\ C0r*r~cc^ O r~c! 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Reason for change: c 4 ouorc/ Line 5~* Should read: ------- ----- ov rPh Bafte. (fcL /# bs Reason for change: ^>pe- ///ny Line a3 Should read: "X-P (rtb -bo uotui no m reo ry yneln L Reason for change: Olrm'b-t^ b3 (jy*i ' SIGNATURE OF*'wiTNESS WATER PCB-SD0000052055 PAGE / 2" OF / 2-- > W,7/ NAME OF WITNESS ~Tvx h\ Let nrt/*} DEPOSITION CORRECTION SHEET c^C(/ W Ce)n)p<tnuj 0~f OLiahowC( ~fa I In re: Upon reading the deposition and before subscribing thereto, the deponent indicated the following changes should be made: Page t S~5~ Page Line n Shouilad reada: -f-rethrmef5 Reason for change: , C-lari^j , and 'fat- use. Line Should read: / ,A . ^j 'Hi'i -e^Ui^menT Reason for change: Page Line Should read: Reason for change: Page Line Should read: Reason for change: Page Line Should read: Reason for change: 2 SIGNATURE OF WITNESS WATER PCB-SD0000052056