Document Zn93R5E6Gyg07QwgYX479VG7Z

51 i 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 MR, SHANNON: 14 15 16 MR. GLASSER: 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 Report which was done by the United States Public Health Service. It is the January to June, 1935 volume, and specifically from that is an article which carries the date January 4, 1935 entitled, "Effects of t-.he Infiltration of Asbestos Dust on the Lungs of Asbestos Workers." It is -signed by Dr. A.J. Lanza. Now, one thing that T would show Mr. Houghton and ask him to read is the introduction or the introductory paragraphs on this article to see if that has any meaning to him. You're asking him whether he knew that in 1929 the Metropolitan Life Insurance Company was approached? ITm asking him basically does he have any familiarity with Dr. Lanza1s 1935 study. and what I1m showing him which might tie in with what we've discussed on the record is whether or not the Metropolitan Life Insurance Company was the plant that studied Manville. The reference is made that this report emanated out of Manville studies, and aJ\\idtown czRepoz ting cSetoice 50/ 'Dimes c5cjume BuifJir.tg ^fiecfestez, cD/cu? c1Jct 146/4 52 1 I believe also Raybestos-Manhattan studies. 2A Well, this was not brought to my attention while I was 3 at Johns-Manvilie. It was not brought to my attention 4 at Oarlock. It may be that most -- some of these 5 information were not -- That didn't excite people yet. 6Q 7 Let me ask was it known while you were at Manville in the 1927-1939 time frame that if you and I went out for 8 the first time today and breathed asbestos, that it 9 would not hurt us or show up on our x-ray tomorrow or 10 next month or even next year but that it took time for 11 the injury which may result from asbestos to show up? 12 MR. SHANNON; Wait, ?4r. Houghton. I object to that 13 question. I don't quite understand it, and .1 4 are you. asking whether he knew in the 1930's 15 that there was a lag, that your question? 16 MR. GLASSER: I'll be happy to re -- 17 Q 18 A Do you understand my question? I think so, and I don't think that then consciousness 19 of the industry had become too much aware of the 20 seriousness of it, and they weren't preaching to us who 21 were working in the factory you must get going on 22 this. It wasn't the same awareness that you have now 23 was not then. czMidtoian (^Reporting cSezuice 50/ Uimes cSij ua Zd '.Building c.Rocf:eaidz, cz/Yeui Hjozlt 146/4 53 9 10 Q 11 A 12 Q 13 A 14 Q 15 16 A 17 Q IS A 19 20 Q 21 22 23 A I understand, but to clarify my question, were you aware that the hazard of breathing asbestos fibers in the 1930's was that over a period of time, it could cause problems? No. We knew that some folks were sent to be checked by x-ray, but it was not the same plantwide type of study that was undertaken at Garlock. We were sent every two years to Clifton Springs, all of us, for an x-ray check. Why? For an x-ray check. Was there - There was no discussion to the individual why. Did you understand why they were taking periodic chest x-rays? I did, yes. What was your understanding, Mr, Houghton? Well, the reports came back only to those that might be cautioned you'd better move to another department. And the reports would reflect that there were some change on your x-ray that related to your breathing asbestos dust? Not described as such, but we might assume that. cMidtoum czRepozting cSezuice 5 01 'Dima c5Vuate i`Buifding cz-Rocficitez, aNew cl/oz( 14614 54 Q Let me show you still a third report that I will share 2 with your attorney. 3 MR. GLASSER: This is a report, for the record, from 4 the U.S. Treasury Department Public Health 5 Service, Public Health Bulletin No. 241, 6 dated August 1938, and this was a "Study of 7 Asbestosis in the Asbestos Textile Industry," 8 and the primary author is Waldemar G. 9 Dreesen. 10 A Now, this bulletin did not come to my hand. It was 11 dated - 12 Q 1938 . 13 A -- 1 38 . 14 Q Were you aware that the U.S. Public Health Service had 15 evaluated and reviewed four textile plants? 16 A We were- aware that the insurance companies would make 17 periodic checks. 18 Q And the standard that you and I have described that 19 limited the quantity of asbestos dust, was that 20 developed, according to your understanding, by the 21 insurance company investigations? 22 A Well, there was a U.S. Bureau of -- I don't know 23 whether it's the Bureau of Safety or something that czMidtoum izRepoztincj cSezuice 501 `Jimes cScjua.c 'l&uifdincj cJZocfcslc., c/Yeui '~lJosl 14614 issued their requirements. I'm not sure of the wording of the department, but there was a Safety Department in the U.S. Government that issued these health notices, and 1. ha l* as the? one that -- well, Public Health Service, right in front of me. I don't think it was all from the insurance company. I think the federal government did it maybe because of the insurance company, but I was not in on that kind of a discussion at all. I understand. Get me try to find one thing in this report. I'm reading on page 117, and I just wanted to refer in line 3 to the wording where it says "Less than 5 million particles per cubic foot." Do you see that? Yes . Was that standard 5 million particles per cubic foot? That was trio top limit. And that was the top limit, and if I understand, beyond that limit, there was a recognized hazard to people breathing asbestos? That was where you were supposed to use respiratory. Arid that -- And it was our problem, to keep it below that. And am I correct that it did not make any difference where the person worked but if the air that he was czMiatocun <zRejiozting cSezaice SO! cJimci cSyuaTt? *33uifiling aRocfie iter, cNew 146/4 56 1 2 3 4 5A 6 7i breathing had asbestos in it and the measurement was greater than 5 million particles of total dust per cubic foot, there was need for protection, regardless of what his job was? That's true. (Whereupon a brief recess was taken.) 8 BY MR GLASSER: (Continued) 90 You mentioned earlier, Mr. Houghton, the Asbestos 10 Textile Institute. What was the Asbestos Textile 11 Institute? 12 It was a membership of all asbestos manufacturing 13 companies as well as the different mining companies in 14 Canada. I guess you have one mining company in 15 Vermont, but it was made up of the manufacturing 16 companies as well as the mines. 17 O And was it an organization formed to render service to 18 buyers and uers and makers of asbestos textiles? 19 A Not so much for the uers as the producers. I think it 20 was mainly for the manufactures to discuss problems. 21 Each might come up or bring to the organizations some 22 of their thoughts. 23 And it was also an organization where you could share cMidtoam cd^epoztinp cSezuice 501 Uimci cSquate \uifdiny izfiocHestdT, cNcw cl/otKi 146/4 advancements, engineering advancements on matters like dust control? Yes, you could share. Now, you mentioned George I. Abbott as being a president of the Garlock Packing Company. He was president. Was he also the representative to the Asbestos Textile Institute in the 1946 time frame for Oarlock? He may have been brought in on some of their organization's side of it, but mostly it would be maybe a purchasing agent, or some other one of the group would be sent to these meetings arid I would be usually the one. Look with me, please, at the exhibit that I have passed to you and, for the record, it is some minutes of the Asbestos Testile Institute taken at the general meeting held on June 19, 1946 at the Warwick Hotel in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania. Have you seen minutes from the Asbestos Textile Institute? Some. Those that I attended I would see them. Is this in the general form of the minutes that you attended? I don11 remember Harris McKinney. This is back right cMidtourn cz/\epoztincj cSezuice 50/ 'ZJinici <zSi]iiaTc: jBuifJirq xifiecfieitd', cNeiu r7/or/- 146/4 58 1 2 3Q 4A 5Q 6A 7Q 8A 9 10 Q 11 | A 12 Q 13 A 14 15 Q 16 A 17 Q 18 19 20 21 22 23 in the beginning stages, and so I recognize some of these names like George Fabel. And he was with Southern Asbestos Company? Yes. And do you recognize any of the other names? Well, I think. I remember Dillon of Johns-Manvilie. What about Mr. Weaver of Raybestos Manhattan? I may have remembered him. Wakem, I remember, of Johns-Manvi1le. That's Mr. Wakem, W--a-k-e-m, Frank J. Wakem? Yes. What about Mr. Widrnayer of Keasbey & Mattison? I don't remember him, I never really got closely attached to - What about Mr. J. A. Bettes of Raybestos-Manhattan? No, I don't remember him. If you will, turn with me to page 4 of these minutes that Mr. George L. Abbott attended for Garlock. There's reference to a definition of the Institute, and do these words, in your opinion, reflect the purposes of the Asbestos Textile Institute? "The Asbestos Textile Institute is a voluntary, non-profit organization formed to render service to buyers and cMidtoum czReporting cSezuice SOI Uima cStjU'.vze tBuitdinc) cRocfeitez, cNeia T/orf 14614 KQ 1 users of asbestos textiles." 2A They * re saying users, then they plan to send out 3 bulletins to customers. I was not in on that. 4Q I understand. 5 MR. GLASSER: I'm going to ask the court reporter if 6 she'd be kind enough to just mark this as 7 Houghton Exhibit Number 2. 8 (WHEREUPON HOUGHTON EXHIBIT 2 - Asbes- 9 to-s Textile Institute minutes of June 19, 10 1946 meeting -- WAS MARKED FOR ii IDENTIFICATION.) 12 Q Are you aware as to whether or not some time during 13 1946 or maybe prior to 1946 a report from the Garlock 14 Packing Company relative to their dust control system 15 was prepared? 16 MR. SHANNON: What are you referring to there? 17 MR. GEiASSER: Let me give you a copy. For the 18 record, I am looking at the reference to 19 appearance, arid I have a copy for Mr. 20 Houghton, also, in the minutes of the dust 21 control committee meeting held on Wednesday, 22 March 13, 1946 at the Engineers Club in 23 Philadelphia, Pennsylvania of the Asbestos cMidtouir dRcpoztiricj (Service 50! 'Jima cScjuaie jBuifJir.q czRccheitei, cJVetu HJot/c 146/4- 60 1 Textile Institute. 2Q 3 On page 2 under paragraph numbered Number 5, there is a statement that "The problem of reduction of dust at the 4 carding engines was then discussed. Mr. McKinney 5 presented a report from the Garlock Packing Company 6 relative to their dust control system." Did you see 7 where I read that? 8A That's number 5? 9Q Yes, sir. 1 0 MR. SHANNON: Your question is does Mr. Houghton 1 i remember that report? 12 Q Do you remember a report prepared? 13 A No. There's a fair chance that I may have been asked 14 to prepare the report, but '46, I was there and nobody 15 else was working in a supervisory state in the textile 16 department but me, so I don't remember any report. 17 Q If a report had been prepared as this copy of the 18 minutes indicates, do you know whether a copy of the 19 report would still be available at Garlock? 20 A Well, they had copious storage of reports, but I don't 21 know anyone now over there that is responsible for such 22 a thing, but, you know, it might be the thing to do 2 3 would be to ask -- I don't know who over there, but cMidtoivn ciRepoxtincj cSezuice 50/ 'Dima c5ijuaze 8uifdintj cRcctiaUz, cNew D/ozi 14614 1 what's his name? 2Q Is this the current management at Oarlock? 3A The current management and the manager -- president was 4 not closely connected with it at that time. We've had 5 several changes in the top. Dick Watson would probably 6 be able to dig in to whoever might be having knowledge 7 of times. The one in charge of files is dead. She was 8 a pretty good person to .go to, but I think this would 9 have to be brought up to Dick. He would be a much 10 better one to go after than me. 11 MR. GLASS5R: Let me make a request to the attorneys 12 that are here. I would request that you ask 13 Mr. Watson whether or not he knows of and can 14 produce a copy of the report from Garlock 15 Packing Company relative to their dust 16 control system that was presented to Mr. 17 McKinney, who is Harris D. McKinney, the 18 Institute Manager of the Asbestos Textile 19 Institute and discussed in these minutes of 20 March 14, 1946, and I have no reluctance, as 21 stated on the record, I have very high regard 22 for Jim Shannon, and if that inquiry can be 2 3 made, if you think it's more approprite that cMidtoiun aRepozting cSezuice 5Qi *Jintei cSguate Building cRocficitc?, cNew HJozk- 14614 62 1 we file it with a more formal notice to 2 produce, I will do so, but I'm trying to 3 accomplish that more informally right now, 4 and if that's permissible to make that 5 request -- 6 MR. SHANNON: We'll note your request and make your 7 request to Mr, Watson. 8A This paragraph 2 refers to a Bausch & Lomb dust 9 counter, and we purchased a Bausch S Lomb dust 10 counter. That was in effect when you saw that 5 11 million particles reference. Well, that's when we were 12 using it, and we used it here. It was a device in 13 which there was a combination of a magnified device and 14 a cylinder with a plunger that: would suck in a curdium 15 of air and impinge that against a glass plate. We used 16 a piece of paper that we would moisten to give humidity 17 and we put that in the chamber, and when you pulled 18 ; 19 that plunger, the air was slightly moistened and particles would be lodged on that, glass plate. Then 20 you simply pick the thing up and you -- the plate was a 21 disc and that sample would be a little band and you had 2 2 about 12 positions on that glass plate, so you could 2 3 make samplings at different places. czMidtown ^Reporting cSezuice 50/ 'Dima cSijuaic (J3uifdiny cJZccfcilcT, cNcuj HJoz^ 146/4 1Q Looking through a microscope? 2A Right, arid then we would -- we had a numbering so we 3 had a record of where we had taken our samples and then 4 I would plug it into the -- There was a light on it and 5 you would count. It was a little grid. It was a two 6 bars and some vertical marks, and in that area was the 7 equivalent of a reading of a cubic foot. 8 And you could determine, therefore, what the dust was 9 by making this counting and make a very good educated 10 guess as to what the dust concentration was in the 11 area? 12 A As you were counting maybe 40 particles on that little 13 plate, the 40 particles times a thousand would be forty 14 thousand. I'm talking a little bit out of the top of 15 my head, but - 16 MR. SHATINOK: Mr. Houghton, excuse me, but don't 17 talk out of the top of your head. Wait for 18 Mr. Glasser to ask you. a question and answer 19 what he asks you. If he wants to get more 20 information about this mechanism, I know he 21 will ask. Don't discuss, Mr. Houghton, 22 please do not discuss things he doesn't ask 2 3 you about. csRlidtoum czRepoztinp cSezvice SOI `dimes cSquale `Suitdinq tzRocir.ilc-., cJVeiu rl/or 14614 64 But I'm very interested and I take it from your statements that you did some of the counting yourself. (No verbal response.) You're nodding your head yes? Yes. These countings wore done at. Oarlock in the 1946 time frame or earlier? The year we bought it I can't give you, but we had it. 9 MR. GLASSER: I'm going to ask please that this be 10 marked as Houghton Number 3, and specifically 11 they are the minutes of the dust control 32 committee meeting held March 13, 1946. 13 (WHEREUPON HOUGHTON EXHIBIT 3 - March 14 13, 1946 dust control meeting minutes - WAS 15 16 Q MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION.) I'm going to go back to what is marked Houghton Exhibit 17 Number 2, and this is the minutes of June 19, 1946 18 where Mr. George Abbott, George L. Abbott, attended for 19 Garlock. On paragraph Number 2, it states that one of 20 the activities that had been done during the last 21 quarter included the "notification to members and. 22 nonmembers on O.P.A removal of ceiling prices." That 2 3 was one thing they did. Another thing was the crMicitoum czRepoztinp cSezuice 501 'Jima cSijuatt 'Huitding tz-RecHeitei, c'Ytur cI!ot 146/4 65 1 "distribution of the Garlock Dust Control System 2 report," and that's the report that I've asked you did you specifically recall, A I do riot recall it. q Do you know whether it was the practice of the ATI to keep not only members advised of what was going on but also keeping nonmember companies informed of Institute activities? MR. SHANNON: Mr. Glasser, please, if you're going to ask him a question, if he knows, ask him, but I think the record should reflect you're pointing out something on that document which 13 evidential ly indicates what you've just 14 asked. 15 MR. GLASSER: 16 17 IS I'm happy to confirm what I was showing him when I asked the question is paragraph number 3. In fact, let me read it to the record, and I'm reading from Houghton 19 Exhibit Number 2, the minutes of general 20 21 Q meeting of June 19, 1946. Wa s i t you r u ride r s t a rid i rg In a t \ > i \ s was a r eg u 1 a r c '' . ' , . ' *" c * :;i 1 nought up 'he matter 2 3 of keeping nonruember companies informed on Institute Midtown czftepozting cSezuice 501 Uimei cScjuaze tBtiifding cRoc&cstet, czNcw rlJoiG 146/4 66 1 2 3 4A 5Q 6 7 8A 9Q 10 li 12 13 14 15 16 A 17 Q 18 19 20 21 22 23 activities. " Do you know whether the Asbestos Textile Institue not only tried to serve its members concerning asbestos matters but also nonmembers? I don't know that. Going back, Mr. Houghton, to the 1946 time frame, again, the mid 40's, were you familiar with the Industrial Health Foundation, the IHF? No, I was not kept up to date on that, no. Do you recall whether or not a study was made of the Garlock Packing Company's plant by a Mr. W.C.L. Hemeon who was a chief engineer for the Industrial Health Foundation in the 1947 time frame? Do you remember people coming or Mr. Hemeon coming to the plant to study and evaluate what you do with regard to dxist control? I can't give you an answer. No, I'd say no. I will share some papers with you that may or may not help let me ask this question first. Are you aware that the Asbestos Textile Institute at its meeting as reflected by the minutes of the subcommittee meeting on dust control committee held June 13, 1946 at the Engineers' Club in Philadelphia, was concerned and I'm reading in paragraph 1A of those minutes, of the czMidtoiun cJ'iepoztirvj cSezaice 501 Jimei c5tjutnc !J$uiLliny afiocfieite', cyYeic *7/ot^ 14614 67 1 "Importance of dust control problem to .all member 2 companies and the need for immediate cooperative 3 action." My question: Were you aware that the 4 Asbestos Textile Institute was discussing the need to 5 gather information, facts, on dust determination and 6 control procedures in the various plants of its 7 members? 3A I do not remember any report of that action. 9Q Were you aware of any services that were available by 10 the Mellon Institute in Pittsburgh? 11 A I!m not aware now. No, I can't say I was aware. 12 Q And I might have asked this, but were you aware that 13 the Industrial Health Foundation operated out of 14 Pittsburgh and offered industrial hygiene, engineering 15 and medical advice to industry where it was sought? i6 A No. 17 MR. GLASSER: For the record, I will ask that this 18 be marked as Houghton Number 4. 19 (WHEREUPON HOUGHTON EXHIBIT 4 - June 20 13, 1946 Dust Control Committee minutes - WAS 21 MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION.) 22 MR. GLASSER: Off the record. 23 (Whereupon a discussion vas held of f the record. ) cAlidtown (zRepoztincj cSezuice 501 \Jimea cSauate \BuilJing czNew ^T/oza* 14614 63 1Q 2 3 4 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 13 19 20 21 22 23 I'm going to show you a thick document, and though it's all one document, the copy that I give you is divided by some loose pages arid then there's a paperclipped portion and then some more loose pages, I'm going to ask the court reporter to mark this entire exhibit as Houghton Number 5, and for the record, I will read it with Mr. Houghton. This is a report of the Industrial Hygiene Foundation of America, Incorporated out of Pittsburgh. It is a "Report of the Preliminary Dust Investigation for the Asbestos Textile Institute," dated June, 1947 by W.C.L. Hemeon, head engineer; specifically, it's dated June 13? T think June 33, 1947. 'd like you to take a moment or as much time as you need and look at that, and I don't want to speed your taking lhe time. You take your time, but also let me pull out for you the paperclipped portion, and the paperclipped portion is dated July 11, 1947 and it's a "Memorandum on the Plant of the Gariock Packing Company Supplementing the General Report," and the general report is the document that you have, and it Identifies that as the "Preliminary Dust Investigation For Asbestos Textile Institute of June, 1947," and you might look specifically at this three-page report to czMidtoLun czRepoztincj (Service 501 'Jime! cSt/uaze 'Hutiding izRocHeiter, cNcw T/oJ 14614 69 1 see whether it has any effect on your memory concerning 2 a study that was done by Dr, Hemeon on the Garlock 3 Packing Company plant. 4A "We rate this as average." 5 MR. SHANNON: Don't read out loud. She'll write it 6 down. Just read .it to yourself, 7 MR. 6LASSER: Off the record, 8 (Whereupon a discussion was held off the record.) 9 10 MR. GLASSER: While we were off the record, Mr. 11 Houghton had just a matter of several minutes 12 to look at the document, which is a rather 13 large document. We decided we're going to go 14 to lunch. I have told Mr. Houghton in the 15 presence of his counsel that when we return 16 from lunch, I will ask you him whether or not 17 the document has any effect on his memory, 18 whether or not he recalls this study being 19 made; specifically, whether he remembers or 20 recalls a study being made of the Garlock 21 facility, which is included in this report, 22 but in any event, we'll resume those 23 questions following the lunch hour. cMidtown czRepoztincj cSezuicc 50/ \Jima KJ$uilcliny aRocfieitez, cft/euj ^IJozC 14614 1 (Whereupon a recess was taken at 12:50 p.m. and the 2 deposition reconvened at 1:50 p.m.) 3 4 MR. GLASSER: We have had a lunch break since 5 approximately an hour ago, and when we 6 returned, Mr. Houghton had not had an 7 opportunity to review the document that we 8 left rwith him, namely the Hemoen document 9 which we marked as Houghton Exhibit Number 10 5. Since we've been back ten minutes or so. 11 he has had time -- 12 MR. SHANNON: Five. 13 14 BY MR. GLASSER: (Continued) 15 Q You've had some time, Mr. Houghton, to review the 16 large document arid the three-page papercl lipped 17 portion? 18 A I've gone in deatail on the one Garlock. 19 Q Do you have any recollection of an examination or 20 evaluation having been made by the representatives of 21 the Industrial Hygiene Foundation of America around the 2 2 1947 time frame as a part of an investigation of 23 approximately ten plants that the Asbestos Textile czMidtourn <zRepoztin>^ cSezaice 501 cSijua 7c lJ3uifdinj cAocteiUz, czA'cw HJozG 14614 71 1 2 3 7 8 9A 10 Q 11 12 13 A 14 Q 15 16 17 A 18 Q 19 A 20 21 22 23 Institute was overseeing? I can recall making studies myself and insurance companies have also examined it, but as for tying it to a definite report, I cannot accurately say. I know that . As I understand your testimony, were there reports or evaluations made of the Palmyra plant in the mid 1940 3 s? Since you say in the area of the 40* s, yes. What you don1 t have any specific recollection of Dr. Hemeon coming through and reviewing your plant and writing this report. No. Did Garlock have a rather unusual interplant heating system where extra heat from one plant was carried over to another plant? Heating? Heating or excess hot air removal. Each plant had its own heating system from the power plant's supply of steam. Our own thermostat would take care of our unit. Each building was a unit, but there was no pumping of air around. It was steam heated by independent heating units. cMidto ion czRepoztinq cSezuicc 501 Z/irnei cSqua ~c `JBuifdtrq czRocfieitez, cN.ew r7/oz/- 14614 72 1Q 2 3 4 5 6A 7Q 8 9 10 11 A 12 13 14 Q 15 16 17 A 15 19 Q 20 21 22 23 A Staying with the? period around the date of this report, namely, July 1947, were you aware that there was concern in the Asbestos Textile Industry to try to determine or verify whether* the 5 million level was in fact a safe or sure level? No, Were you aware that there were efforts among the various asbestos textile manufacturers through the Asbestos Textile Institute to exchange information on how to improve things? I think it was an independent effort to improve your particular unit. We weren't with other units. I was not concerned But if you had good information, you were willing to share it through the Asbestos Textile Institute with others? Willing. I was always willing but there was not a constant feeding from one to another. Was It your understanding In the mid 19408s that the 5 million particle standard that we have discussed was not positive insurance that no disease would occur, it was more of a goal to strive for, is that correct? It was more as a goal, yes, thatfs -- I was not in the czJ/lidtoiun cRepoztiny cSezuice 501 Uinrcj cSquaze 'Building c/Zocficitez, cz/Vzto cl/ozH 14614 73 1 2Q 3 4 5A 6 7Q 8A 9 10 Q 11 A 12 Q 13 14 15 A 16 Q 17 18 19 A 20 Q 21 22 A 23 heal th depar tin on t. As an engineer, were you aware that there was the electron microscope was in existence in the 1946-1947 time frame? To answer that question, I couldn't say -- no, I was not aware that it was available for our use. But were you aware that it had been invented? Oh, I think I may have heard that they had developed the microscopeThe electron microscope? The electron microscope, yes. Am I correct that the electron microscope had an ability to see things at a far greater magnification than a regular light microscope? Yes, I've heard that. Were you aware that there was concern expressed in the 1947 time frame that the light microscope was not a good device for counting very small asbestos fibers? No, I didn't hear that. Did you know the difference between a fiber and a particle? I think the definition was a fiber was of some 5 microns or over; a particle was a spot. cMichto ton aRepoztmcj cSez uice 50/ Dima cStjuaie 3uifJing izRocfieitcr, cNew r7/or< 146/4 74 1Q Would it be fair to say that a fiber was three times 2 longer than it was wide and a particle was more of a 3 rounded shape. 4 MR. SHANNON: I object to that. 5A No, I can't say that. 6 MR. SHANNON: He hasn't testified to anything like 7 that . 8A I can't say that. 9Q I'm showing you a page that comes out of the Heraeon 10 report, Houghton Number 5, that has a copy of what 11 purports to be a photomicrograph. Do you see where I 12 show that? 13 A Yes. 14 ' Q Have you ever seen in the 1947 time frame pictures or 15 studies of asbestos that were produced under an 16 electron microscope? 17 A No. 18 MR GLASSER: I am going to request the court 19 reporter to confirm that this has been marked 20 as Houghton Number 5 and pursuant to my off- 21 the-record discussion with Jim Shannon, I am 2 2 going to give you today the cover sheet of 23 that exhibit, and I'll discuss it on the <cMidtotun tz.Rcpor.tin.cj cSezuicc 501 \Jimct cSyucitt 'HuitJiry c/tocficstc:, cNcu' '7/oj 14614 75 1 recors. My notations were basically my own 2 cues that give me an abbreviated portion of 3 the text. I really don't have an objection 4 to that being filed. I think it would be 5 nicer to have a nice clean copy, but rather 6 than run the risk I'm going to leave her this 7 copy and then if I can supply her with a 8 clean copy, then it will be substituted. The 9 copy of the text is identical. .10 MR. SHANNON: I don't have any objection of what 11 ever you want to do. If you want to supply 12 her with a clean oopv at a later time, that's 13 perfectly all right. 14 MR. GLASSER: Pasuant to that I'm going to add to 15 page one the rest of this bulk. 16 MR. SHANNON: Off the record. 17 (Whereupon a discussion was held off the record.) 18 (WHEREUPON HOUGHTON EXHIBIT 5 - 85 19 pages; first document being "Report of 20 Preliminary Dust Investigation For Asbestos 21 Textile Institute, June 1947 - WAS MARKED FOR 22 IDENTIFICATION.) 23 Q Mr. Houghton, did you have any occasion, sir, in the cMidtown tzRepoztiny cSezuice 50! 'Jirr.es eSjuare cm~Building eiRacfiester, cJfeiu HJozfc 14 b 14 76 1 2 3A 4 5Q 6 7A 3Q 9 10 A 11 Q 12 13 A 14 15 16 17 18 19 Q 20 A 21 Q 22 23 1940'3 to attend any of the meetings of the Asbestos Textile Institute? I have no record that I know of of my attending in the 40's. I think my start was in the 50's. Was it Mr. Abbott who attended ATI for Garlock in the 1940's? He probably did. When I attended, he did not. When he attended in the 40's, did he ever report to you what had been discussed? I cannot recall any reports from him. Do you know to whom he would ordinarily report in the 1940's? ' It might have been through the various different factory managers, Cecil Hubbard for a number of years, and my memory is poor, but there were probably a period of not more than five or six years of any one of the various managers when something took place and they would change or they died. Mr. Hubbard, you told me, is no longer available? He's dead. I guess he's been dead for 20 years. Do you know whether any of the managers of any of the asbestos-producing Garlock plants from the 1940's are still alive and available? cMidtoivn cRepozting cSezuice 50/ Oimei cStj ua*e l33uifdinq c-Rocficstc", cNew HJoxt 14614 77 1 2 3 4 5o 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 Q 13 14 15 16 17 Q 18 19 A 20 Q 21 22 23 \ I don't think so. Mullen is dead and oh, fella that lived down here, he's dead. No, there aren't many of them alive. All along the line, they've dropped off, arid they didn't work in the asbestos plant. We have talked about various dust counting techniques that were used within the plant on the carding and other dust-producing operations. To your knowledge, did Garlock ever run tests to determine the dust count of how the product would act when it was being used by the user? Not that I know of, no. To your knowledge, did Garlock ever publish any booklet or put down in a report for its customers what precautions should be taken when people, users, were using asbestos containing products from Garlock? (Whereupon a discussion was held off the record.) Were you shaking your head before we went off the record? I can't give you any positive answer, no. To your knowledge, at any time while you were with Garlock, did they ever place a warning on their asbestos-containing materials to warn people of any hazard that might be associated with the use of the czMidtourn (zRepoztimj cdez aice 50/ \Jima Gstycw HJozU 146/4 78 1 products? 2A It was not my job. I don't know of anyone doing that, 3 but I can't give you an answer. 4Q 5A How long did you remain in the employ of Garlock? Thirty-one yea.rs on salary there, nine years as a 6 consultant after retirement. 7Q And if my mathematics is correct, then, you would have 8 worked for Garlock from 1939 until 1970? 9A That's right. 10 Q On salary? 11 A On salary. 12 Q And then, are served in a consultant capacity from 13 1970 to 1979? 14 A Yes. 15 Q And your answer about never having seen any warnings 16 on any of the asbestos-containing products --- 17 A No. 18 Q -- that would be true from 1939 to 1979? 19 MR . SHANNON: That also assumes that he would have 20 had an opportunity to observe. You didn't 21 ask him where he might have served as a 22 consultant. My father is a consultant now in 23 his old firm, and he hasn't been in the firm c.MiAtown cRepoztincj cSezuice 50/ \Uimci cScjuate `JBuifchng cJZocfcjttz, cNew njozit 146/4 79 1 2 3 4 5A 6Q 7 8A 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 q 17 A 18 Q 19 20 A 21 Q 22 23 for years. Am I correct that you never from 1939 to 1979 saw any warning on the asbestos-containing materials manufactured by Garlock? No , What was the nature of your consultant work from 1970 to 1979 for Garlock? Some was development work in the factory. Mainly concerned with graphite, yarn and Teflon. Some of it has been in foreign countries. I was sent to set up braiding plant and instruct the weavers -- the operators on making braided packings, both in France and in the Philippines. For one period, I examined a textile plant reporting back conditions I found in that plant in Spain. Were these all Garlock plants? All Garlock plants. Has Palmyra always been its primary manufacturing site for gaskets and textiles? Its primary, yes. Did Garlock, to your knowledge, ever share any of the information it had about the importance of reducing dust where asbestos dust was being generated? Did it (zMidtown iZ-RepozttnLj cSezuice 50/ Uimci cSc]ua~c :3iuifJing dRocficite?, (zA/div 14614 1 2 3A 4 5Q 6 7 8A 9Q 10 i1 12 13 14 1 A 15 Q 16 17 18 A 19 Q 20 21 22 A 23 Q share that information with any of the uers or purchasers of Its product? I was not in on any of that, no. As for Garlock doing it, I can't give you an answer. When did you first become aware of any association between the infiltration of asbestos fibers and any form of cancer? You say when? That I can't give you a good answer. I have a paper that I will be discussing with you in a matter of moments from March of 1955 'where the records indicate you attended an ATI meeting, but I want to ask some leading questions first. When did you first start attending ATI meetings? Probably about I960. But if a record indicates that you had attended earlier, could you have attended as early as March of 1956? Basing on memory, possibly. In Philadelphia. That's correct, that's correct. Did you know the name iri the 1950* s of the Saranac Laboratories in Saranac, New York? I think I'll have to say no. Did you know the name as best you can recall, Hr. idtoiun czRepoztina cSezvice 50/ 'Jima cSquaze :j3uifcling cJtocficjiar, cNcto J/oT.i' 146/4 81 Houghton, of Dr. Garrett Sceepers? No. Did you know the name of Dr. Wilhelm Hueper? I'll have to say no. Let me show you the document that I had reference to and I'm going to show you and your attorneys two different documents which I am going to mark numbers Houghton Number 6 and Houghton Number 7. Houghton Number 6 will be the minutes of the general meeting of the Asbestos Textile Institute held March 8, 1956 in 11 Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, and Houghton Number 7, 12 though inconsistent chronologically, will be the 13 minutes of the meeting of the Board of Governors of the 14 Asbestos Textile Institute held on March 7, 1956 iri 15 Philadelphia, and let me give a copy of these to unool. 5 7 (WHEREUPON H n .H'iON EXHIBITS 6 and 7 - " lis =.f March 8, 1956 and March 7, 1956 1 9 meetings of the Asbestos Textile Institute, v 0 rc ;po<;i:ively WERE MARKED FOR ?-5 IDENTIFICATION.) '* Neagh ton, IT m turning to now what the court tn A ` " '" ' ' or 6, and in terms idtown czRejjoztir2(j cSczuice 50/ 'Dimes cSejuarc jBuifJing <zRocfiitci, cNetu D/oz( 14614 82 1 of; l'he general form, con you. identify this form as 2 being what you recall the Ashestos Textile Institute 3 minutes generally to look like? 4A Well,, it looks like the type of report that we 5 received. 6Q And do you see your name on page 1? 7A Right here, there and here. (Indicating.) 8Q And so that the record is clear, the two places that 9 you referred to, number one was on the list of those in 10 attendance over on the right-hand side of the page in 11 the middle, in all caps it says, "Garlock Packing 12 Company," and it says G. E. Houghton, that's you, is 13 that correct, sir? 14 A Yes. 15 MR. SHANNON: Attending as a guest. 16 MR. GLASSER: Attending as a guest, that's right. 17 Q IS And the second place where your name is listed is in paragraph number one where it states in the next to 19 last line of that paragraph that Mr. G. E. Houghton, 20 Garlock Packing Company, and Frank Gatke, Asbestos 21 Textile Company were in attendance at the meeting and 22 also were in attendance at the Air Hygiene meeting on 23 March 7th, okay? cMiAtown dJ'Kejioztincj cSezaice 50/ 'Jimis cScjuaic J3uitding nRocfiste", cf'/icj ^-yocf? 146/4 83 1A 2Q 3 4 5 6 7 8 9I 10 11 12 A 13 14 15 Q 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 All right, If if you turn over to pages 2, in paragraph number 6, it indicates that at the meeting on March 7th, the day before, that one of the matters that was fully discussed were the comments of Dr. Smith, that's Kenneth Wallace Smith of the Johns-Manvilie Corporation, which related to the report issued by Dr. Hueper, who was with the National Cancer Institute, on a subject relating asbestosis with lung and heart disease was discussed at great length. Do you see where I'm reading that? I see where you're reading it, yes, but I was not at that earlier meeting. This was an earlier meeting, wasn't it? I understand but if you will turn back with me and see whether this refreshes your recollection. In paragraph number 3 it states, and I'll read it in its entirety and you read with me, "The meeting was called to order by President Wakem and an address of wecorae extended to all of the members present. Recognition and welcome was also extended to representatives of two former member companies who attended the meeting of the Air Hygiene Committee on March 7 and were also in t-Rocbeitc'., cNcw T/orf 146/4 84 1 attendance at this meeting, namely, G. E. Houghton, 2 Garlock Packing Company, and Mr. Frank Gatke, Asbestos 3 Textile Company." Do you see where I've read that? 4A This apparently my first meeting with the ATI. 5Q But the question is raised concerning the meeting on 6 March 7th, and for that I would ask that we turn to 7 the other exhibit that I gave you which you now have in 8 front of you, and this is the one for March 7th, and do 9 you see --- and I`d like you to look at paragraph 2A, 10 and take a momenet. It's difficult to read. I'll be 11 happy to read it with you. Can you read it? Sir, 12 while you're flipping on the light to see better, do 13 you remember Dr. Kenneth Wallace Smith from the 14 Johns-Manvilie Corporation? 15 A I cannot give any accurate remembrance of this man. 16 Q Are you able to read it, Mr. Houghton? 17 A Most of the words I can understand. 18 MR. SHANNON: Off the record. 19 (Whereupon a discussion was held off the record.} 20 Q You and I will read it together. I'm going to read it 21 and she'll take it down so the record is clear. 22 Starting on A, it says, "The Air Hygiene Committee 23 report was presented by two representatives from that (zMidtaun czRepo'itincj cSezuice 501 \Jirr?es cScjuaic 'J^uifdiny izftocficitc?, tdVciu *7foz& 14614 85 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 A 23 Q committee.- Dr. Kenneth Smith and Mr. D.R. Holmes, chairman of the committee. Dr. Smith addressed the meeting first with remarks directing attention to a report issued by Dr. Hueper titled 'Public Health Monograph #36, A quest into the environmental causes of cancer of the lung.' Much of the information set forth in this report is unsubstantiated and is in variance with established understanding and knowledge of informed men in the medical profession; however, this article is apparently assumed to be the; only authentic treatise today aval table which may be used as a reference for court action involving asbestosis and its relationship to heart disease and lung cancer. Dr. Smith strongly recommended that the Institute initiate a program of investigation and publicity to counteract the unfavorable publicity presently directed to the asbestos industries as a result of the work, of Dr. Hueper. It was recommended that the Industrial Apr Hygiene Foundation be engaged to collect the necessary information to publicize the results so obtained." Did I read that correctly? Yes. Do you recall the presentat inn by Dr. Kenneth Smith cMtdtoLur ci.Rcjioztinij cSezuicc 50/ 'Dimes cStfuazc `SuifJinj cAocficstct, cNew DJoete 14614 86 1 concerning the article that had been written by Dr. 2 || Hueper associating asbestosis and lung cancer? 3A If I had seen that, it would have been from a report 4 because I wasn't at that meeting. 5Q If you will turn back with me to Houghton Number 6, do 6 you recall being at the meeting on March 8, 1956? 7, A Yes. 8Q Do you recall at that meeting as is reflected by Number 9 6 of those minutes that the report concerning Dr. 10 Hueper1s article was discussed at the meeting that you 11 were in attendance at on March 8, 1956? Do you 12 remember any discussion such as is reflected by Number 13 6 of the minutes? 14 ; A To recall? No. 15 : Q !| 16 Do these minutes, and take your time and review them, and see whether any of the matter the discussed help to 17 serve or refresh your recollection. 18 MR, GLASSER: Off the record. 19 (Whereupon a discussion was held off the record.) 20 MR. GLASSER: Jim Shannon has pointed out to me 21 that in Houghton Number 6, the minutes from 22 March 8, 1956 that there is a very obvious 23 deletion of four or five inches or so in the oMidtoiun cd^efioztinc-] cSezuice 501 Oimes cScjua ze iBuifJiny ezftccfieitcT, cNew ^l/ozfr 14614 87 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8! 9 10 11 32 13 34 35 36 17 A 18 19 20 Q 21 22 23 A middle of page 2 of those minutes. There is a partially visible 5 in the left-hand margin apparently marking paragraph 5 which has been blocked out. My best knowledge is that this is a copy of what we have in our office expressly, so that no question is raised, it is nothing that v/e have blocked out, and yet I leave open the fact that should anyone be able to produce a bonified copy of the minutes of this meeting, that we will be happy to receive that as an exhibit or perhaps a supplemental exhibit which wo could mark 6A for whatever value that is. My copy does not reflect paragraph 5, and I have no information as to what it is or how it got blocked out. I remember being at this meeting, but then you asked me do I recall these various items. My answer would be no. My concern, Mr. Houghton, is to determine do you recall any mention associating asbestos or asbestosis with lung cancer from the meeting? Oh, I think I've absorbed that over the years. czMidtoiun czRepoztinq cSezuice 50/ 'Dima cSqua te 03utiding CjRccfiitcz, c/fciu DJozC 146/4 88 1Q 2 What about in the time frame around March of 1956? Do you recall having looked at this, and I don't mean to 3 try to ask do you remember everything, but I'm trying 4 to determine do you have any recollection as to whether 5 you had heard anything concerning the association of 6 asbestosis and lung cancer in the 1956 time frame? 7 MR. SHANNON: I object to the question because it's 8 been asked an answered at least two or three 9 times now, and the continued repetition of it 10 is beginning to suggest an answer to him. 11 MR. GLASSER: I don't mean for it to do so. 1 2 MR. SHANNON: I know you don't mean it. It's going 13 to have that effect if you keep asking it of 14 him, 15 Q Do you understand my question? 16 A I understand do I have that knowledge, but not -- I 17 don't recall when I got the knowledge. 18 Q Do you recall whether or not you would have received a 19 copy of the minutes of the meeting that you attended? 20 Wasn't that generally the practice of -- 21 A The practice would be about a month after the meeting. And was it your personal practice with regard to meetings that you had attended to read or review the cMidtoum cRepoztinq cSezuice SOI `Jimts cSquate 'JSuildina <lRocfiitct, cNcio njoti 14614- 89 1 minutes that were sent to you? 2A Yes. 3Q And is it not more likely than not that you would have 4 received a copy of these minutes, and I'm referring to 5 : Houghton Number 6 which has your name mentioned? 6 MR. SHANNON: I object. That calls for complete 7 speculation. He's he told you that he 8 remembers being at the meeting, but he can't 9 i remember the specific topics. Now you're 10 asking if he remembers receiving the 11 document. 12 Q 13 That's a different question, but do you recall receiving a copy of these minutes? 14 A I recall receiving copies of minutes, yes. This 15 particular one, I can give you a positive answer. 16 Q Customarily when you did receive minutes, you woxild 17 review them? 18 A Yes. Years have go by. 19 Q I understand that, I really do, Mr. Houghton, and I 20 know that the question is tough. You never had 21 occasion in reading minutes that you received from 22 ATI meetings to say well, that's wrong, that didn't 23 happen or make any correction to any minutes? c=MiJtown czRepozting cSezoicc 50/ `Dima cStjunze ^uifdiny CjRocfeite*, cAUw 14614 90 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 1,1 A 12 Q 13 A 14 Q 15 16 17 A 18 Q 19 A 20 21 Q 22 23 No. Going to a different topic, Mr. Houghton, are you aware that in 1957 on November 14, 1957 a Worker's Compensation claim was filed by a lady by the name of Grace Baylord claiming that she had either pulmonary fibrosis or pulmonary asbestosis and her job or work place was the textile department where she had been employed intermitently for 22 years during the 1923 to 1957 time frame? Do you remember or know Grace Baylord? Yes, That was her married name. Was she a worker under your supervision? Yes . Were you aware that in 1957 she filed a Worker's Com pensation claim against Garlock for pulmonary asbestosis? I think my answer would be yes. And you're aware that she was paid funds then? I don't recall seeing that report, but I know she filed a claim. Was she the first claim for asbestosis that you are aware of at Garlock or were there ones earlier than 1957? <rMidtourn czRepozting cSezaice 50/ Uimes eSejun ze ^BuiUirjtj cRccfieitcz, cN-cw Hjoid 146/4 91 1A I can't answer that. 2Q You don't recall any before 1957? 3A No, I don't recall any. 4Q Do you know what her job was in the textile department? 5A I think she was a twister operator. Twister means a 6 machine that combines two or more threads together and 7 twists it. She was a twister operator. 8Q Did the twister have a local exhaust ventilation 9 system? 10 A No. The yarn is spun so it doesn't produce much dust, 11 so the twister is relatively a clean machine. The 12 spinning frame produced dust. That's the one I put 13 machine dust recovery equipment on. 1 4 MR. GI.ASSER: Off the record. 15 (Whereupon a discussion was held off the record.) 16 , Q What period of time did you attend the ATI meetings 17 yourself? 18 A Most of the meetings from that date there. 19 Q From 1956? 20 A '56. Most of time I attended up to 1970, I think that 21 there were not many that -- I didn't attend one. 22 There's one I did riot attend was down in South 2 3 Carolina. It was at a Hilton Head. cMidtouM czRepoztinc) cSezaice 50/ ^imei cScfuaxe \Bui(Jir.j 'zRockestc r, cNcw clJoz^ 14614 92 1Q 2A 3Q They had approximately how many meetings a year? It was two, sometimes three. Did you serve on any committees? 4A Oh, yes, we would break up into committees, but I 5 haven't clear-cut records of committees I served on, 6 but we would have a general meeting, then we would meet 7 in groups, probably mostly reflecting that sections we 8 were involved in. 9Q 10 A 11 Q 12 Did anyone else attend meetings with you from Garlock? Yes. Who generally would attend with you or in addition to you? 13 A It was not always the same one. I can't give you 14 those names. I'd have to work on my memory, which 15 isn't very good. I can't give you a list of names. I 16 know that Sedella Dixon went with me in the latter part 17 because he came with us in 1967. 18 MR. SHANNON: Off the record. 19 20 Q 21 (Whereupon a discussion was held off the record.) I understood vour testimony that starting with 1956 and continuing through 1970 that you attended many of the 22 23 A meetings yourself and you rarely missed any. Yes. cMidtown cRep&zting cSezuice 501 Uirnci cSquare `-BuifJiri.j cRocfestex, csVew T/oii- 14614 93 1Q 2 3A 4 a'* 5 6A 7 8q 9A 10 q 11 A 12 13 Q 14 A 15 Q 16 17 18 A 19 20 21 Q 22 23 The one that you missed was in Hilton Head, that your aware of? That's the only one that stands out in my mind. And in addition to your attending, there were other people who would, on occasion, attend from Oarlock? Yes, there would be frequently there would be one other. Mr. Kuzmuk? Kuzmuk. Did A1 Dayton ever go? I don't think I remember A1 Dayton being with me. Ke was on the safety committee. Did you go to any meetings of the ATI after 1970? I think not. When you went to meetings of the ATI between 1956 and 1970 and returned to Palmyra, to whom would you report what had happened at the meeting? It would only be the factory manager. Factory manager sometimes was the vice president, but it would be the factory manager that I would directly report to. And your position, Mr. Houghton, when you came in, you were initially, I believe you told us, a superintendent iri the textile department? cidtown czRepoztinq cSczaice 50/ Uimcs cScjuaze l cfiocheitez, cNear ^./ozi' 14614 94 1A 2 4 5 6 7Q 8 9A 10 11 Q 12 A 13 14 15 16 ; 17 Q IS : 19 A 20 Q 21 22 23 Up until 1958 and then they wanted me to go in the new missile department, so I was moved over to the engineering department from then on, I worked in the missile department and then he worked on development for Chevron and other products, probably mainly Chevron. Did you continue to have contact with those plants that were making asbestos-containing materials? When an Asbestos Textile meeting would take place, they'd ask me if I could go. And you would attend for the company? Yes. I was the -- up until -- now, that was -- yes, 1970. From then on, I didn't attend, but that was 1960 that I started working on engineering, but I was still more? or less related to the textile departments, more or less consultant for textile problems. And still attending the Asbestos Textile Institute meetings? Yes. Is it fair to state that one of the topics that was discussed at many meetings was the health effect associated with exposure to asbestos and ways to control it dust? czMidtoiyn czRejioztinp <Sezaice 50/ 'Oinici cScjua'ie 2?uifJing cfivchcitci, cftft:ur r7/oik 146/4 95 1A 2Q 3 4 5 6A 7Q 8 9 10 11 12 A 13 14 15 Q 16 A 17 Q 18 A 19 Q 20 A 21 Q 22 23 Some, not all. It was discussed at some meetings but not all meeting. Did there come a time where you heard any discussion at the Asbestos Textile Institute about the need to place warnings on asbestos-containing products? I recall no discussion on warnings. After 1970, when you were no longer on the payroll but were serving as a consultant to Oarlock, were you kept abreast as to dust counts that were going on at the plant and what the asbestos levels were in those dust counts? Only in discussions. We had developed a new plant and I was following that, Out in Sherbrook. I was aware of what was happening there. Did you know who Mr. H.R. Hughes was? Hughes? That's not clear in my mind. Do you know who Mr. L.A. Green was? Green? Yes, sir. No. Are you aware as to whether or not Garlock was cited for any occupational safety and health violations in the 1972 time frame under the new OSHA law? czMidtown aRepoztincj cSezuice 50/ Jitrcs cScjuaze ^Building cJ^ocfiaU?, <zNcw c'ljozfe 14614 96 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 A 14 15 Q 16 17 A 18 Q 19 A 20 Q 21 A 22 Q 23 I didn't hear of it. In your experience as an engineer, did you ever have occasion to use yourself or to hear of anyone else who used a tindle-beam lamp to help visual observation of dust movements, and what I'm showing Mr. Houghton as I speak is a letter dated August 18, 1972 from Turner Brothers Asbestos Company Limited to a Mr. D.J. Kamel, Vice president International Operations, Garlook Inc., 1250 Midtown Tower, Rochester, which has a Garlock "received" stamp on it of August 31, 1972 with the notation "vice president engineering." You see the reference on page 2 of this letter? I do not remember hearing of that. I knew that Kamel was president, but I did not hear of that. You never had occasion in evaluating any dust to use a tindie light -- No . -- to help you to see the dust or the fibers? Only this Bausch & Lomb. The Bausch & Lomnb counter that you described? That one. Mr. Houghton, when you were with Garlook, even in the very late 1930's and 1940's, were you aware that the dMicitoiun cz-Repoztinij cSczuice 501 Oimcs /Square `IBuildinq c-Rociieitei. cNeia HJozk 146/4 97 1 2 3 4A 5 6! Q 7 8i 9A 10 Q 11 12 A 13 14 Q 15 16 A 17 18 Q 19 20 21 A 22 Q 23 A Garlock asbestos-containing products were going to be used by various mechanics, asbestos workers, insulators as a part of their day-to-day jobs? The products we made were not of the insulation type. We made packing rings, gaskets. But you were aware that Garlock gaskets, for example, would be used on ships to work with flanges and valve covers? Yes. Were you aware that Garlock gasket materials were being sold to the government for use aboard ships? When you way you were aware, I was not connected with the sales department. I knew gaskets were being made. And did you know that gaskets were or some of the gaskets would be used aboard ships? Well, just in conversation 1 would say I would assume they would be, but I was not connected with sales. Were you also aware that other materials, perhaps from your days at Manviile, were being used to go on pipes and boilers, turbines and heat-generating equipment? That type of product was made by Johns-Manvi1le. I understand. I knew that that was being made for boilers and C-Midtown cftepoztincj cSezince 501 Ouna <Squa?e 2?uifdtng cJZocfiestc:, cNew HJozfc 146]4 1 2 3 4 5A 6Q 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 36 r? j; 18 in A 20 Q 21 22 23 turbines. And did you also know that some of the gaskets that were being made by Garlock would also end up being used on boilers and turbines? Not then. I didn't even know who Garlock was. Let me clarify. Once you came to work for Garlock and you knew that they were making compressed gasket sheeting and gaskets, you were aware that some of the Garlock gaskets would be used on boiler and turbine couplings and on pipes leading off of boilers and turbines? List of names did not come to me in the textile department, but I knew Garlock was making gaskets. It was up to the sales department where they were to go to. And you knew that trie Garlock gasket materials fore--eeably could be used on all of these hot machine processes? My answer is yes r You also knew, did you riot, that the gasket materials that Garlock was making, though new at the time that you manufactured them, ultimately had a limited life span when they were subjected to the high temperature czAlidtoiun czRepoztiny cSezuice 50/ <Jlrnes cSquazt: 3$uifdinej czRocfiatez, czNeiv 146/4 99 1 2 3A 4Q 5 li 6A 7Q 8 9A 10 Q 11 12 13 14 A 15 Q 16 A 17 18 19 Q 20 21 22 A 23 Q heats for which theyworejntnndeded? They would not last forever. Oh, I know that replacementsare needed, You would be out of business if they did didnTt need some replacements . I was not a maintenance man. I understand, but you knew that the materials ultimately to be replaced with new ones. That's almost an axiom. I agree, and you knew that wherethere were boilers or turbines that were insulated that not only would the insulation have to be replaced but that the gasket fittings would also have to be replaced. Nobody ever discussed that with me. But you are aware of that? No, I wasn't aware of it. I wasn't even thinking about it. How could I be aware of it when I didn't know where it was being used? What I'm trying to clarify is that you knew that the products, the gasket materials that Garlock was making ultimately would have tobe replaced. Well, you said those words. Do you agree with me that -- czMidtowr aRepoztincj cSezuice 50/ Uifries cSijuaze `Jluifding izRccf.tsler, czNciv ^IJozk 146/4 1A I agree that generally things have to be replaced. 2 There's nothing that we make that15 permanent. 3Q Are you aware that once a gasket had been subjected to 4 the intense heat of a boiler -- 5A What is Intense heat? 6Q I can use a number of 600 pounds pressure upwards. 7A What is the temperature? 8Q 600 degrees upwards. 9A The asbestos would stand that, maybe not the rubber. 10 Q Well, that's helpful. Once your gasket material that 11 Oarlock made the asbestos containing gaskets, whether 12 it was rubber coated or however it was coated, once it 1 3 had been subjected to high temperature, there would be 14 some deterioration of the carrier product, am I 15 correct? 16 A Probably. 17 Q Are you aware as to how mechanics in the field would 18 remove a worn out or burnt out or gasket that needed to 19 be replaced? Are you aware that they would use knives? 20 MR. SHANNON: I object now. Richard, you asked him 21 a question, now you're trying to go back and 22 give him the answer. 2 3 MR. GLASSER: I have a right to ask questions as I czMidtown cfiepo ztincj cSezvice SO/ \7irnes cScjiiavc JBuitJinq szRocfjtzilci, cNew `7/or/f 14614