Document ZaaxOD501j08LZx67aReNq48

STATE OF ALABAMA IN THE CIRCUIT COURT OF CALHOUN COUNTY SABRINA ABERNATHY, et al., versus Plaintiffs, MONSANTO COMPANY, et al.. CIVIL ACTION NUMBER CV-96-269 (Consolidated) Defendants. DEPOSITION OF NORMAN MADISON The deposition of NORMAN MADISON, was taken before Deborah Salers Garrett, Certified Shorthand Reporter, Registered Professional Reporter, as Commissioner, commencing at 10:10 a.m. on January 14, 1999, by the Plaintiffs, at the law offices of Merrill, Porch, Dillon & Fite, Suite 500, SouthTrust Bank Building, 1000 Quintard Avenue, Anniston, Alabama, pursuant to the stipulations set forth herein. Regional Reporting Service, Inc. 755 Walnut Street Gadsden, Alabama 35901-0755 HARTOLDMON0031921 2 1 APPEARANCES 2 For the Plaintiff s: 3 CHARLES CUNNINGHAM, Esq. Morrissey Building, Suite 200 4 304 West Liberty Street Louisville, Kentucky 40202 5 DONALD W. STEWART, Esq. 6 STEWART & SMITH 1131 Leighton Avenue 7 Anniston, Alabama 36201 8 For the Defendants: 9 D. MARSH PRAUSE, Esq. 1 0 SMITH, HELMS, MULLISS & MOORE, LLP P . 0 . Box 2 19 2 7 1 1 Greensboro, North Carolina 27420 1 2 ARTHUR F. FITE, III, Esq. MERRILL, PORCH, DILLON & FITE 1 3 P. O. Box 580 Anniston, Alabama 36202 14 15 INDEX 16 Stipulations 17 Reporter's Certificate 18 Page 3 100 1 9 EXAMINATIONS 2 0 Witness: NORMAN MADISON Page 2 1 By Mr. Cunningham 4 22 No exhibits were marked for identification, 2 3 offered or attached as exhibits hereto. REGIONAL REPORTING SERVICE, INC. HARTOLDMON0031922 3 1 STIPULATIONS 2 3 IT IS STIPULATED AND AGREED by the 4 parties, through their respective counsel, 5 that the deposition of NORMAN MADISON, may be 6 taken before Deborah Salers Garrett, CSR, RPR, 7 as Commissioner and Notary Public, Alabama at 8 Large, at Anniston, Alabama, on January 14, 9 1999, at 10:10 a . m . 10 1 1 IT IS STIPULATED AND AGREED that it 12 shall not be necessary for any objections to 1 3 be made by counsel to any questions except as 14 to form or leading questions and that counsel 15 may make objections and assign grounds at the 1 6 time of trial or at the time said deposition 1 7 is offered in evidence or prior thereto. 18 19 IT IS STIPULATED AND AGREED that notice 2 0 of filing by the Commissioner is waived. 21 22 23 REGIONAL REPORTING SERVICE, INC. HARTOLDMON0031923 4 1 STATE OF ALABAMA, ANNISTON, JANUARY 14, 1999 2 3 NORMAN MADISON.. 4 after having been first duly sworn, was 5 examined and testified as follows: 6 7 EXAMINATION 8 BY MR. CUNNINGHAM: 9 Q. Sir, would you state your full legal 1 0 name for the record, please? 1 1 A. Norman Madison, Norman K. Madison. 12 Q. Very good. Have you been deposed 1 3 previously? 14 A. No . 15 Q. This lady here to your left isgoing to 1 6 be taking down everything that you and I 1 7 say so that later someone coming back 1 8 and reviewing your testimony here today 1 9 will understand fully what your answers 2 0 were. Okay? 2 1 A. Yes. 22 Q. That creates a couple of ground rules 2 3 for us. Obviously we want you to tell REGIONAL REPORTING SERVICE, INC. HARTOLDMON0031924 5 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 Q. 9 10 11 12 A. 1 3 Q. 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 the truth. And with all the stuff with the president lately, some peoplethink you can color that. Let's try to be very direct. Okay? MR. FITE: You are not going to ask him what he is -- MR. CUNNINGHAM: No. You just nodded in response to one of my comments. I have to ask you to speak verbally so that she can take that down. Okay ? Yes. Great. And lastly two oddities of mine that I need to be sure you are aware of, I have a bad habitof cutting people off in the middle of an answer. You will be responding to a question of mine, and what you say leads me to this brilliant thought, and I just have to ask the next question. We want you to feel like you have gotten all o f your answer in. If I do that to you. by all means let us know so that we get your complete answers. REGIONAL REPORTING SERVICE, INC. HARTOLDMON0031925 6 1 2 A. 3 Q. 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 1 2 A. 1 3 Q. 14 15 A. 1 6 Q. 17 18 1 9 A. 2 0 Q. 21 22 2 3 A. Okay ? Yes. The second thing I have a habit of doing is asking questions that make it sound like I know what I'm talking about that sometimes I really don't. Okay? So if I say something and you are thinking that doesn't make sense to me, by all means tell us that. Don't assume that I'm correct, because I ask silly questions all the time. All right? Yes. All right. Where do you reside, Mr. Madison? At 195 Hollow Ridge Lane, Anniston. And unlike myco-counsel here, I'm not intimately familiar with Anniston. What part of town is that? It is west of where we are sitting. West of where we are sitting. Is it over there near the Monsanto plant, then? It is past, about three miles west of REGIONAL REPORTING SERVICE, INC. HARTOLDMON0031926 7 1 2 Q. 3 4 5 6 7 A. 8 9 Q. 1 0 A. 1 1 Q. 12 A. 1 3 Q. 14 15 A. 1 6 Q. 1 7 A. 18 1 9 Q. 20 21 2 2 A. 2 3 Q. that . Okay. Now, I know for instance where the water plant is on the road as you go out past Coldwater Spring. Are you out in that direction, or are you a little north of all that? I'm not that far west. That's about seven or eight miles west of Monsanto. Are you out off 202? Yes. Okay. How long have you lived there? Thirty-some years. And prior to that time where did you live? 2001 Wilmer Avenue in Anniston. And what part of town is Wilmer Avenue? That is north from where we are sitting about fifteen blocks or ten blocks. Okay. So that, too, I'm guessing would be three or maybe even four miles from the plant? About the same, yes, sir. And how long did you live there at REGIONAL REPORTING SERVICE, INC. HARTOLDMON0031927 8 1 2 A. 3 Q. 4 5 6 7 A. 8 Q. 9 A. 1 0 Q. 11 12 A. 13 14 15 16 17 18 1 9 Q. 20 2 1 A. 2 2 Q. 2 3 A. Wilmer? Four or five years. Okay. And prior to that where did you live? I'm taking you back into ancient history here, I understand. Are you a native of Anniston? No . Where were you born? Tuscaloosa. Okay. And have you lived anywhere other than Tuscaloosa and Anniston? Yes. I lived in Tuscaloosa until I was six months old and moved to Birmingham, Bluff Park area. Shades Valley. I moved to Anniston when I was fifteen. My father had a piping contract at the WAC center at Fort McClellan, been here ever since. When you say a piping contract, was he a piping contractor? Yes. And he was putting in some -- They built a WAC headquarters or REGIONAL REPORTING SERVICE, INC. HARTOLDMON0031928 9 1 2 Q. 3 A. 4 5 6 7 8 Q. 9 10 A. 1 1 Q. 12 13 14 A. 15 1 6 Q. 17 18 19 20 2 1 Q. 2 2 A. 2 3 Q. something as I recall. That is WAC, W-A-C? Women's Army Corps. I don't remember all the details. He was awarded the contract to install piping of some kind, steam piping, water piping, that stuff in a headquarters building or something. Okay. And then you have lived then in Anniston ever since? Yes. That is when I was fifteen. All right. Do you have relatives who qualify as potential juries in Calhoun County ? I do not have. My wife probably does. Is that what you mean? Right. In other words, you don't have any blood relatives who reside in Calhoun County? MR. STEWART: That would be over nineteen, Charlie. Right, over the age of nineteen. No. Your wife's family, what is her maiden REGIONAL REPORTING SERVICE, INC. HARTOLDMON0031929 10 1 2 A. 3 Q. 4 A. 5 Q. 6 A. 7 Q. 8 A. 9 Q. 10 A. 11 12 1 3 Q. 14 1 5 A. 16 1 7 Q, 1 8 A. 1 9 Q. 20 21 22 A. 2 3 Q. name ? Echols. E-c -- H-o-l-s. Does she have a lot of clan here? She has one brother. What's his name? Donnie. What's his wife'sname? Judy. MR. STEWART: I know them, went to school with them. That's all right. I still think well of them. Well, in those days they had to go to school where they were. Whereveryou landed, right? Yeah. Do you have any church, civic, or social affiliations here in town, organizations that you attend regularly? No . All right. Let metake you through your REGIONAL REPORTING SERVICE, INC. HARTOLDMON0031930 11 1 2 3 4 5 A. 6 Q. 7 A. 8 Q. 9 1 0 A. 1 1 Q. 12 1 3 A. 14 1 5 Q. 16 1 7 A. 18 Q. 1 9 A. 20 21 22 23 occupational history, please. At first maybe I will start with education, because that might lead us into that. Did you graduate high school? Yes. And where? Oxford. And when would you have gotten out of Oxford High? 19 56 . Anddid you get any further formal educ ation ? A BS in chemistry from Jacksonville State in 1964,January 1964. Now, that's-- There is a gap there. Did you do military service or -- No. Actually I worked at Monsanto. Okay. And there was a break. I was going to school when I went to work at Monsanto as summer relief. I then returned to school while working for Monsanto and completed the study in January of '64. REGIONAL REPORTING SERVICE, INC. HARTOLDMON0031931 12 1 Q. 2 A. 3 Q. 4 A. 5 Q. 6 7 8 9 1 0 A. 11 12 13 14 Q. 15 1 6 A. 1 7 Q. 18 1 9 A. 2 0 Q. 21 22 23 Now, was that a night school? No. I worked at night. You worked the second or third shift? Yes, full-time student. That had to be tough. And the chemistry program at Jacksonville State, was there anything unique or special about that, or was it just a run-of-the-mill bachelor's in chemistry? It was hard as hell. I know that, especially having two children during that time and working forty hours a week. It was tough. And it I guess takes you half an hour at that time probably to get there one way? Yeah. Any other formal education aside from that ? No. What about what I'll call informal education? Did you ever have seminars or conferences that you went to either internally with Monsanto or externally? REGIONAL REPORTING SERVICE, INC. HARTOLDMON0031932 13 1 A. 2 Q. 3 A. 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 1 3 Q. 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 2 2 A. 2 3 Q. Yes. Tell me about those, please. Thirty-five years of them? There were four or five of them a year for thirty-five years. It included instrumentation, things related to the job, innovations in instrumentation, and of course when they changed from pneumatic to electronic instrumentation and then the computer control, those things, and of course always things about benefits. What percentage of the conferences or seminars that you would go to would be in-house things that Monsanto put on as opposed to something that Vanderbilt University or Jacksonville State might hold that people from various companies might attend? MR. FITE; Off the record. (Discussion held off record.) It was a mixed bag. Okay. Describe for me some of them that REGIONAL REPORTING SERVICE, INC. HARTOLDMON0031933 14 1 2 3 4 5 A. 6 7 Q. 8 9 10 1 1 A. 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 1 9 Q. 20 21 2 2 A. 2 3 Q. you remember. Let's start with the Monsanto in-house stuff. Would that always be in Anniston, or would you travel places sometimes for that? It would be different locations, different plant locations. And were there a lot of different places you would go and learn about instrumentation within the Monsanto sy st em? No, not instrumentation. But like management techniques, get to interface with a lot of people from other locations. Might be held at Pensacola or St. Louis or one of the meeting centers at world headquarters in St. Louis, so you would interface with people from all of them. And if Monsanto wanted you to know something, they didn't mind having you travel somewhere to learn it? Yes. And you would meet people from all over. REGIONAL REPORTING SERVICE, INC. HARTOLDMON0031934 15 1 2 3 4 A. 5 Q. 6 7 A. 8 Q. 9 10 11 12 13 14 A. 15 Q. 16 17 18 19 20 2 1 A. 2 2 Q. 23 maybe even the world? Did you meet people from outside the U.S. at some of these things? I don't recall. May have, but you don't have a recollection of meeting somebody? No . Okay. Now, you are saying the subjects that you went to these conferences for that Monsanto held covered not just what you did in a technical sense but also broader subjects like management, benefit plans, that sort of thing? Yes. Do you have some idea for me just in a ratio sense of how often these things dealt with what your specific technical expertise was as opposed to these other business -- what I will call business-re1ated subjects? No . Okay. Would you get handouts when you would go to these things? REGIONAL REPORTING SERVICE, INC. HARTOLDMON0031935 16 1 A. 2 Q. 3 4 5 6 7 A. 8 9 10 11 12 Q. 13 14 15 A. 16 17 1 8 Q. 19 2 0 A. 21 Q. 2 2 A. 23 Yes. What would you do with these when you got back to Anniston and got back to your desk? Was there a shelf or a drawer where you put these things, or would they get tossed? Probably a combination of all of those. Some of them required some follow-up. Many of them required some follow-up, that itwas a continuing program. It wasn't just -- Spend the weekend with us and we don't need to talk to you any more kind of thing? Right. Many of them were ongoing programs that were part of your job performance goals. Okay. Can you give me an example of one of those? Safety. Okay. That would be an example, and there was a goal on your performance. And at the REGIONAL REPORTING SERVICE, INC. HARTOLDMON0031936 17 1 2 3 Q. 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 1 3 A. 1 4 Q. 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 quarterly review, you would review those. And environmental. When you say safety, now, I want to be sure we are clear, because some folks use that broadly in kind of an industrial hygiene sense. They mean physical safety and health. To other people it is a separate thing, the safety and health components. When you say that, are you kind of combining those two? Did you cover health and toxicity stuff in those conferences? Ask that question again, please. Yeah. To put it in a specific context, as I understand it, today out there at the plant, you have the person in charge of industrial hygiene, and he has two people under him. One is kind of focused on safety, and one is kind of focused on health. Okay? And that is not uncommon in my experience, that they are different realms although they fall under the same umbrella. REGIONAL REPORTING SERVICE, INC. HARTOLDMON0031937 18 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 A. 10 1 1 Q. 12 13 14 15 A. 1 6 Q. 1 7 A. 1 8 Q. 19 2 0 A. 2 1 Q. 22 23 Did you have regular course work or updates or conferences that dealt with health in the context of what y'all did out there, or was it strictly safety, wear your goggles, wear your hat, don't let temperatures get above a certain leve1? Did you get into toxic and health stuff? I will just give you my own feeling, that you can't separate the two. Okay. They were part and parcel of one another, and you recall being told about that stuff as new information came available? What stuff? Information. Oh, yes, yes. Iassume yes. As far as you know,they were keeping you up to speed on this stuff? Yes. Okay. You mentioned environmental. When did you first recall that being -- Again, is that all part and parcel of REGIONAL REPORTING SERVICE, INC. HARTOLDMON0031938 19 1 2 3 4 A. 5 Q. 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 1 5 Q. 1 6 A. 17 1 8 Q. 19 A. 2 0 Q. 21 22 23 the same stuff, or do you have a recollection that at some point that became a new thing? No. It was always the same. Okay. So as far back as you can remember going to these things in the early '60s, that was at least a component in these kinds of conferences that Monsanto would hold? MR. FITE: If you are not sure what the question is, ask him to rephrase it, if you are struggling with what he means by his question. Fine. Would you like me to do that? I thought that was a statement. I didn't realize it was a question. It is a question. Okay. Am I understanding you correctly that from the beginning of your tenure with Monsanto when you would go to these kind ofannual conferences, one part of which REGIONAL REPORTING SERVICE, INC. HARTOLDMON0031939 20 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 1 0 Q. 11 12 13 14 A . 15 16 Q. 17 18 19 2 0 A. 2 1 Q. 22 A. 2 3 Q. you have told me concerned safety, health, and environmental type stuff, that those were all covered from the beginning, safety, health and environment ? MR. FITE: I'm going to object to the form. You are asking him really if your understanding is -- That is my understanding. If I'm wrong, I want you to tell me. The goal isn't for me to testify. The goal is for you to testify. Make it -- I don't understand your question. When do you first remember them talking about environmental stuff or waste control or pollution control in terms of what Monsanto was teaching you? The day I went to work there. Okay. That's what I was looking for. Okay. And that would have been sometime in REGIONAL REPORTING SERVICE, INC. HARTOLDMON0031940 21 1 2 3 A. 4 Q. 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 A. 12 Q. 1 3 A. 14 Q. 15 16 A. 1 7 Q. 18 19 20 21 22 23 actually the mid '50s when you were still in high school? 19 5 8 . Okay. All right. Now, do you have personally in your possession -- If we went out to 195 Hollow Ridge Lane and to your wife's great distress walked in unannounced and start rummaging around, would we find some old books, binders, outlines -- No . -- anything of that nature? No. Where might somebody find some of that stuff, got any idea? No . Let me take you now away from the Monsanto kind of seminars and go to stuff that was non-Monsanto. Can you recall any one in particular that you can give me that dealt with health, safety, environmental pollution type stuff, any of those categories? REGIONAL REPORTING SERVICE, INC. HARTOLDMON0031941 22 1 A. 2 Q3 A. 4 Q. 5 6 7 8 9 A. 1 0 Q. 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 2 1 A. 2 2 Q. 23 No . Okay . But you do know that it happened? Uh-hu h (y indicating yes). You remember going to outside seminars but they may not have been on that subject as you recall? I'm being obtuse. You did go to outside seminars, correct ? I don't understand "outside." That were not sponsored by Monsanto. And to give you an example, Dr. Ford who we deposed last week testified about going up to Vanderbilt and giving a seminar to people who would come in* from academia and industry to hear what he had to say about the latest developments in waste water control. And I said would people from companies come, and he said yes. I'm just trying to find out if you ever got sent to a seminar. Oh, got sent, yes. Give me an example of onethat you remember going to on those kind of REGIONAL REPORTING SERVICE, INC. HARTOLDMON0031942 23 1 2 3 A, 4 Q. 5 A. 6 7 Q. 8 A. 9 10 11 12 13 14 Q. 1 5 A. 1 6 Q. 17 1 8 A. 1 9 Q. 20 21 22 23 A. subjects, health, safety, pollution, in that realm. A waste treatment seminar? Yes. In Birmingham. I thought I would never forget the guy's name, but I have. The instructor, you mean ? Yes. He had written books on waste treatment control. He was the world authority, and I cannot -- MR. CUNNINGHAM: Who was the fellow that Ford worked with? MR. PRAUSE: Eckenfelder. Eckenfelder, was that hisname? Yes, yes. And do you recall when you went and heard Professor Eckenfelder? No. Do you remember learning something there and thinking, "I'm going to take that back toAnniston with me and improve what we're doing"? No . REGIONAL REPORTING SERVICE, INC. HARTOLDMON0031943 24 1 Q. 2 3 A. 4 Q. 5 6 7 A. 8 9 Q. 1 0 A. 1 1 Q. 12 13 14 15 1 6 A. 1 7 Q. 18 19 2 0 A. 2 1 Q. 2 2 A. 23 Do you remember who the sponsor of that seminar was? No* If you had to put that in a particular decade, '50s, '60s, '70s, '80s, do you have a probability for me? I'm guessing between 1975 and 1980, about that. Okay. That'sa guess. That's all I can ask for. Any other -- Do you think this was the only time you went to a seminar that would have dealt with waste control, or do you think there would have been others? That's all I recall. Okay. Let'sgo now to your role at Monsanto. '58 is when you said you started there? Yes. Tell me about what you did there. I was hired in 1958 for summer relief. And then -- REGIONAL REPORTING SERVICE, INC. HARTOLDMON0031944 25 1 Q. 2 3 A. 4 Q. 5 A. 6 7 8 9 1 0 Q. 1 1 A. 1 2 Q. 13 14 A. 1 5 Q. 1 6 A. 17 18 1 9 Q. 20 21 22 23 Did everybody that did summer relief do the same thing? Ye s = Which was what? They worked in the plant, and you covered for people who were on vacation. And everybody took their vacation on the midnight shift, so you worked the midnight shift. Okay. Did people work rotating shifts? Yes, yes. So everybody was going to pull some midnight shift work? Right. So that would be -- They run twenty-four hours a day, seven days a week, three hundred sixty-five days a year. Let me ask you about that. In other words, your process equipment would only go down for maintenance, basically. You didn't have scheduled shutdown. If it was up and running, it could REGIONAL REPORTING SERVICE, INC. HARTOLDMON0031945 26 1 2 3 4 A. 5 Q. 6 A. 7 8 Q. 9 1 0 A. 11 1 2 Q. 1 3 A. 14 15 16 17 18 1 9 Q. 20 21 2 2 A. 2 3 Q. theoretically keep going throughout the year. You didn't shut down for weekends? Didn't shut down for weekends. You just -- We didn't shut down just because of the weekends. Is that what you are asking? Well, you said three hundred sixty-five day s a year. Let me say that again. It was manned. The facility was manned. Okay. All right. And that is what I did. Whoever happened to be on vacation of that manning, whatever the manning for that department was for that shift, if he was on vacation, then I covered for that man. What sort of responsibilities would you have had there early on in your career as a summer relief person? Operating a denora mercury cell house. Could you spell that for -- REGIONAL REPORTING SERVICE, INC. HARTOLDMON0031946 27 1 A. 2 Q 3 A. 4 5 Q. 6 7 A. 8 Q. 9 A. 1 0 Q. 11 12 A. 13 Q 14 15 A . 1 6 Q. 17 1 8 A. 1 9 Q. 20 2 1 A. 22 2 3 Q. D-e-n-o-r-a. It is a chlorine producer. And say it for me one more time. Denora, d-e-n-o-r-a . The chlorine plant is what they called it . Originally did you call it denora mercury ? Uh-huh (indicating yes ) . Did it have mercury in it? (Witness nods head affirmatively.) And basically your job was to make sure things were running smoothly ? Yes . Open and close valves, make feed stock go in or not go in? Yes. What was the feed stock for that process? Brine, salt water solution. Okay. Salt water would go in. What would come out? Chlorine and caustic soda, sodium hydroxide. Anything -- I mean, would there be water REGIONAL REPORTING SERVICE, INC. HARTOLDMON0031947 28 1 2 3 A. 4 Q. 5 6 A. 7 8 9 Q. 10 11 A. 1 2 Q13 14 A. 15 Q . 16 A. 17 Q 18 A. 1 9 Q. 20 21 2 2 A. 2 3 Q. out of the Was that it, just chlorine and caustic soda? Yeah. It was a complete conversion of H20 and NaCl into -- Well, it was a closed loop. As the depleted brine recirculated, it was a closed loop. You would just recharge it, but that is all that ever came off? Yeah. Okay. What did y'all do with your sodium hydroxide? Loaded it in tank cars. Did you sell it? Yes, as far as I know. Then what did you do with the chlorine ? Used it in the plant. I know about PCBs obviously. Did you have other products you used the chlorine for? No. I do not think so. Okay. Was that the only thing you did REGIONAL REPORTING SERVICE, INC. HARTOLDMON0031948 29 1 2 A. 3 Q. 4 5 6 A. 7 8 9 10 1 1 Q. 12 1 3 A. 14 15 Q. 16 1 7 A. 1 8 Q. 19 20 21 2 2 A. 23 as a relief person? Yes. Okay . What else did you do there? What was the next title, I guess, you acquired working there? Well, after that stint as the summer relief, somewhere the next year they called me back and offered me a job there in the plant, because of my chemistry background, in the lab. All right. What chemistry background did you have as of 1959? My association with the plant, from knowledge of the plant. Okay. So what you knew was what you learned on the job that first summer? Uh-huh (indicating yes). And I thought all you were doing was making sure that the brine was going in and the chlorine was coming out. Were you doing chemical analyses as well? There were control samples within that proces s. REGIONAL REPORTING SERVICE, INC. HARTOLDMON0031949 30 1 Q. 2 3 A. 4 Q. 5 6 A. 7 8 Q. 9 A. 1 0 Q. 1 1 A. 12 Q. 13 14 15 A . 16 17 Q 18 1 9 Q. 20 21 22 2 3 A. All right. And you would do that as the operator ? Yes. What kind of equipment were you using to do that? A pH meterand hydrometer, gravity, specific gravity. Those are pretty simple -- Yes. -- equipment, are they not? Yes. They offered you a job in the lab. What was your title going to be, or what was your title rather? I don't remember. Technician maybe. I'm not sure. Okay . What did you do ? General analytic al work for the plant. Everything you did was for the Anniston plant, I'm assuming. They weren't sending you stuff in from the other places? Not to my knowledge. I didn't have REGIONAL REPORTING SERVICE, INC. HARTOLDMON0031950 31 1 2 Q. 3 4 5 A. 6 Q. 7 8 A. 9 Q. 10 1 1 A. 12 1 3 Q. 14 1 5 A. 16 17 18 1 9 Q. 20 21 2 2 A. 23 anything to do with it. You would just get a sample and be told we need this parameter checked, and you did that? Yes. Who did you work underat that point in time? Do you recall? Klemme, K-l-e-m-m-e, was his last name. Is that the person who kind of trained you for this? No. He was the chief chemist. Everybody in the lab report to him. How many boys and girls are we talking about in the lab back in '59? That is why they offered me the job. There were very few. For some reason they were -- I can't remember. They were very shorthanded. And I don't doubt that, but I have no concept of what is shorthanded or what isn't. Same principle, it had to be manned twenty-four hours a day, seven days a REGIONAL REPORTING SERVICE, INC. HARTOLDMON0031951 32 1 2 Q. 3 4 5 A. 6 Q. 7 8 9 10 A. 11 12 Q. 13 14 15 16 A. 17 18 1 9 Q. 20 21 22 23 A. week. So was the standard complement one person in the lab at all times, two people -- Yes . Okay. Would they double up like a normal shift? Would the chief chemist be there with someone like yourself when he is there, or he just pulled -- No. He you worked Monday through Friday, like eight to five. Okay. And what sort of things did you do to occupy yourself in an eight-hour shift as a lab technician in 1959 at the Anniston Monsanto plant? The samples were from the parathion department. Most of them were from the parathion department. Now, were these samples of feed stock, finished product, waste streams, all of the above? What were you analyzing typically? Control samples, mostly control samples REGIONAL REPORTING SERVICE, INC. HARTOLDMON0031952 33 1 2 Q. 3 4 5 A. 6 Q. 7 8 9 1 0 A. 11 1 2 Q. 13 1 4 A. 15 1 6 Q. 1 7 A. 18 1 9 Q. 20 2 1 A. 2 2 Q. 23 from each separate process. Okay. To make sure things are moving through the way they are supposed to move through? Yes. And do you have -- can you give me a quantitative sense of how many s amp1e s you are doing in a given day? Were you kept busy? Most of the time you didn't have time for lunch. Okay. If you did have lunch, where would you eat lunch? There was a lunchroom separate from there. Shouldn't eat in the lab? Absolutely not, could not, signs all over the world. Okay. Now, do you recall doing any sampling for the Aroclor department? Yes. So you did do that. What sort of samples were you doing for the Aroclor REGIONAL REPORTING SERVICE, INC. HARTOLDMON0031953 34 1 2 A. 3 Q. 4 5 A. 6 Q. 7 A. 8 Q. 9 A. 1 0 Q. 1 1 A. 12 1 3 Q. 14 15 1 6 A. 17 18 1 9 Q. 2 0 A. 21 22 23 department ? Dielectric properties of the PCBs. That I assume would have been on finished product? Yes. Anything else? Benzene tank car samples. That's a feed stock? Yes. What were you looking for with that? Just ran a simple test on freezing point that was an indication of the purity. Okay. Because if you had some impurities in your benzene, that could create some nasty stuff, couldn't it? Yeah. It wouldn't be that exact temperature of the point that it went to crystal. How precise could you be with that? Very precise with benzene, because water or anything else will change the point, just change it to crystal. Then it is no longer pure. REGIONAL REPORTING SERVICE, INC. HARTOLDMON0031954 35 1 Q. 2 3 A. 4 5 6 7 8 Q. 9 10 1 1 A. 12 13 14 15 Q. 16 1 7 A. 18 Q. 19 A. 2 0 Q. 2 1 A. 22 23 What kind of purity specification is there on the feed stock benzene, then? It had to meet that freezingpoint, and then there was a spec sheet that outlined what that freezing point related to in purity, and I don't recall that number. Well, what do they say. Ivory soap is ninety-nine point ninety-nine percent pure? You don't have a recollection? It was within two-tenths of one degree centigrade, within that parameter. If it was without that, it was rejected and returned to the supplier. Okay. And what other samples do you recall doing for the Aroclor department? The HB-40 samples. HB-4 0? Yes. What in the heck is an HB-40 sample? Well, it is a heat transfer fluid where you do a refracted index on that. That is also a measure of the purity or the REGIONAL REPORTING SERVICE, INC. HARTOLDMON0031955 36 1 2 3 Q, 4 A. 5 Q. 6 7 A. 8 9 10 11 12 1 3 Q. 14 15 1 6 A. 17 1 8 Q. 1 9 A. 2 0 Q. 21 2 2 A. 23 point which the hydrogenation cycle is comp1e t e. Okay. And it is a very specific range. What kind of equipment did you have to do that? A spectrometer. It is a prism that you put a drop on and close it and light. You match the colors, and then there is a number that automatically -- that shows -- sort of like a micrometer. And then you read that number. Okay. And that's to make sure that you are getting the right kind of molecules inthebatch? Make sure it is in specification. That's all I knew. In spec? Right. And you can sell it because it is in spec ? Yes. And you reported that number to the department, and they handled it. REGIONAL REPORTING SERVICE, INC. HARTOLDMON0031956 37 1 Q. 2 3 4 A. 5 Q. 6 7 A. 8 9 10 11 12 1 3 Q. 14 15 16 1 7 A. 18 19 20 2 1 Q. 2 2 A. 2 3 Q. Did you ever get batches -- apparently you did -- get batches of benzene in that weren't in spec? I did not. You did not. But the plant did occasionally? I do not knowthat for a fact. I just know that that is what the spec sheet showed, that you reject it. And everything had -- And it wouldn't be used. That is all I know. I was always told it would be returned. Did you everhave a batch of Aroclor that you were testing its dielectric capacity or the HB-40 refractive spectrum and it not be within spec? I don't recall any. I would have had to call the chief chemist, you know, at home and wake him up. And I never recall. Those, you know -- Why would you have to call him up? That was part of the quality control. He would come in and check your work? REGIONAL REPORTING SERVICE, INC. HARTOLDMON0031957 38 1 A. 2 3 4 Q. 5 6 A. 7 Q. 8 9 1 0 A. 11 12 1 3 Q. 14 15 A . 1 6 Q. 17 1 8 A. 1 9 Q. 20 2 1 A. 22 23 No. He just had to be notified, and the department supervisor had to be notified. That is the way it worked. Are youaware of that happening with someone on a different shift? No . So theentire time you recall working in the lab with the Aroclor process, you never had a batch that was bad? Not to my knowledge. You remember, I told you I ran the control samples. So at that point -- Well, are you aware of a batch that was bad at a different point? No . So the plant performed flawlessly throughout the time -- On my shift, on the part I did. Okay. And what other things do you recall doing in the lab? Was that it? We did -- I did samples for the feed stock in the waste treatment plant in parathion. REGIONAL REPORTING SERVICE, INC. HARTOLDMON0031958 39 1 Q. 2 A. 3 4 Q. 5 6 A. 7 Q. 8 A. 9 Q. 1 0 A. 11 12 13 14 15 16 1 7 Q. 18 1 9 A. 2 0 Q. 21 22 2 3 A. For the feed stock? Well, that is what they called it, the waste. You analyzed a waste water stream that was going to the -- Yes. And what were you looking for in that? Looking for para-nitropheno1. And why were you looking for that? To give that number to the operator so he could adjust the flow to the treatment plant. That is what they had to treat in the treatment plant. The concentration in the feed basins of the para-nitrophenol, they would adjust the flow accordingly. What was the treatment process that was taking care of this P-nitropheno1? It was a return activated sludge system. And that was there when you got there in '59 I assume? Do you have any idea when it started or went on line? No. I don't have any knowledge of that. REGIONAL REPORTING SERVICE, INC. HARTOLDMON0031959 40 1 Q. 2 3 4 5 A. 6 Q. 7 8 9 A. 1 0 Q. 1 1 A. 1 2 Q. 1 3 A. 14 15 16 17 18 19 2 0 Q. 21 2 2 A. 23 What kind of equipment did you have or did you use to analyze that waste water stream for the P-nitrophenol? Can we call that PNP? Sure. That's what we call it. She will appreciate that. What equipment did you use to analyze the PNP content -- That was done with a colorimeter. Colorimeter? Yes. Describe that for me, please. It is a little box with a wheel in it. You hold it up to the light, and you turn the wheel. And the wheel has different shades of yellow. And you put a sample in a tube on the other side, and you compare the two colors. Then you read it as to parts per million. That is what its sensitivity was, parts per million? Yes. And that colorimeter had been developed specifically for that PNP. REGIONAL REPORTING SERVICE, INC. HARTOLDMON0031960 41 1 Q. 2 A. 3 Q. 4 5 A. 6 Q. 7 A. 8 Q. 9 10 11 12 1 3 A. 14 15 16 17 1 8 Q. 19 20 2 1 A. 2 2 Q. 23 Was that developed by Mon santo? I don * t know. I don't know. Okay . Was that the pr incipal component- of the parathion waste water -- Yes. -- that y'all were worried about in '59? Yes. What about parathion itself? I mean, I think of that as being a greater threat to an activated sludge bed than PNP. Did you just not have parathion in that waste water stream? Very little. But the parathion quickly converted to PNP. It was easy to break parathion down to PNP, but that was the dollars. That is what you were making, you know. You wanted it to go out as parathion. You didn't want that going in the waste stream for sure? Right. And I assume that was a goal consistently in the lab, to make sure REGIONAL REPORTING SERVICE, INC. HARTOLDMON0031961 42 1 2 3 A. 4 Q. 5 6 A. 7 Q. 8 9 10 1 1 A. 1 2 Q. 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 the processes were working in an economically efficient manner? Yes* And that was made clear to y'all on a regular basis, I'm sure, by management? Yes. All right. Anything else you remember analyzing back in that early phase, '59, '60 when you were a lab tech there at the plant? The samples, the caustic soda. Okay. What other kind of equipment? Let me shift on you a little bit and talk about equipment. You have mentioned the chlorimeter, the HB-40 device, the mass spec equipment. Obviously you would have had pH meters and density meters. What other kind of equipment do you recall being in the lab and available to you? MR. PRAUSE: Object to the form. I don't think he said it was a mass spec. REGIONAL REPORTING SERVICE, INC. HARTOLDMON0031962 43 1 Q. 2 A. 3 Q. 4 5 6 A. 7 8 9 10 1 1 Q. 12 13 14 A. 15 16 1 7 Q. 18 19 2 0 A. 2 1 Q. 22 2 3 A. I'm sorry. No, not a mass spec. A spectrometer, not a mass spectrometer. What other equipment do you recall having available to you? We did some samples from the parathion department that required an automated -- We did it at one time, titration, by hand, but then we had an automated titrator, and a gas chromatograph. Let me take those one at a time. The auto titrator, what were you looking for with that equipment? We were looking for when the reaction was complete on one of the steps in the parathion production. Okay. And the titrator would help you know that you had reached complete reaction? Yes. Do you remember what particular chemical reaction was in question? We call it thioacid. And it was -- REGIONAL REPORTING SERVICE, INC. HARTOLDMON0031963 44 1 Q. 2 3 4 5 6 A. 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 Q. 14 A. 15 16 1 7 Q. 18 1 9 A. 20 21 2 2 Q. 2 3 A. And my sense is that with titration, depending on dilutions and such, you can get pretty precise. What kind of sensitivity were you working with in that? Do you recall? Again, there was a number that -- a window that it was either c omp1e t e or not complete within that number. And you reported it back to the department, and they had specific instructions as to what to do from that point using that numb e r. Okay. And that is generally what you did, report it back, and it was handled in the department. What about the GC, the gas chromatograph? That was to check, again, the process, an intermediate process in the parathion production. And what were you looking for? You had a standard that you injected and REGIONAL REPORTING SERVICE, INC. HARTOLDMON0031964 45 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 Q. 8 A. 9 Q 10 A. 1 1 Q. 12 13 14 A . 15 Q. 16 17 18 A. 19 Q 20 A. 2 1 Q. 22 23 allowed it to pass through the GLC and make its peak. And then you injected the sample and compared those two, divide the part by the whole and get a percentage and report that to the departme nt. Do you recall what the standard was? No . Was it parathion itself? No. It was an intermediate step. And do you have any recollection as to what kind of sensitivity you had with that particular device? No . The sample you got. was it a pure equivalent to the standard -- Less than. Obviously it must have been a mixture. Yes. Okay. Was this a dedicated machine? It sounds like all your machinery was dedicated to a particular test. In REGIONAL REPORTING SERVICE, INC. HARTOLDMON0031965 46 1 2 3 A= 4 Q. 5 6 7 A. 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 2 2 Q. 23 other words, you wouldn't go run something else on that GC, or would you? I didn't = Did you through your schooling ever come across something and say, gee, I wish we had one of these suckers in the lab? Off the record. Here, you know, in college chemistry and all that, you do it . You sit there and make it and do it and stir it. And like the old alchemist, if you want to turn that into gold , lay it in the gold stuff. You know , what we had was so far superior t o what we have in college chemistry c 1 a s s e s, you know -- That is what I anticipated, but I have to -- Can we go back on the record? MR. STEWART: She didn't go off. MR. PRAUSE: No attorney said to go off the record, so it was on the record. That's what we are looking for. That is my perception of the way of the world, REGIONAL REPORTING SERVICE, INC. HARTOLDMON0031966 / 1 2 3 4 5 A. 6 Q. 7 8 A. 9 10 A. 1 1 Q. 12 13 14 15 A . 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 too, that college campuses, if they get equipment, it is given to them from industry when industry got the new stuff. Right, when something replaced it. So you felt you had the best equipment that was available? (Witness nods head affirmatively.) MR . FITE: Speak up. Yes. All right. So that's got us your early years. Tell me what's the next promotion or change in your job or re ies as you recall. I did some -- when I graduated college in *94 I was loaned to the production department to do some instrument training. MR. PRAUSE: Do you mean '64? THE WITNESS: What did I say? MR. PRAUSE: '94. THE WITNESS: Professional s tude nt . REGIONAL REPORTING SERVICE, INC. HARTOLDMON0031967 48 1 Q. 2 3 4 A. 5 6 Q. 7 8 A. 9 1 0 Q. 11 1 2 A. 13 14 1 5 Q. 1 6 A. 1 7 Q. 18 1 9 A. 2 0 Q. 2 1 A. 2 2 Q. 23 1964, did you get a different job title then at that point, or just they said here, go do some other stuff? No. I was just on loan to the production department. And I'm sorry. You said you did that to do some training? Yeah, training for process instrumentation. And do you recall which production departments you worked with? I worked for the production superintendent, which was the -- what we call the organic division. As opposed to -- The agricultural division. And what products were in the organic side of things? PNP, chlorine, and the Aroclors. With the parathion falling in the ag? Yes. So you worked directly with the people making the chlorine and feed stocks and REGIONAL REPORTING SERVICE, INC. HARTOLDMON0031968 49 1 2 A. 3 Q. 4 A. 5 Q. 6 7 8 9 A. 10 1 1 Q. 12 1 3 A. 14 Q. 15 16 1 7 A. 18 19 20 2 1 Q. 22 23 making the Aroclors? I trained them. In process instrumentation? Yes. And what sort of instrumentation do you remember them working with? What did they have over there in the production side they worked with? Generally flows, levels, and temperatures. Okay. How long do you recall working on that project? Less than two years, Ithink. Was this something new that had come up, or you -- I'm wondering why this happened at this point in time. It was a continuation, as I understood it and understand it today, of training, to give the people the tools to do their job. Do you think somebody was doing this before you did it, and somebody did it after you? REGIONAL REPORTING SERVICE, INC. HARTOLDMON0031969 50 1 A. 2 Q. 3 4 5 6 A. 7 8 Q 9 10 1 1 A. 12 1 3 Q. 14 15 A. 1 6 Q. 17 18 1 9 A. 2 0 Q. 21 2 2 A. 2 3 Q. Yes, sir. Al1 right . In '66, then, roughly, s oi01 iin0 in *t In 0 mid '60s when you are no longer on loan to production. where did you go ? I went to production foreman in the chlorine plant . Okay. And what were your responsibilities in that particular capacity? Total responsibility for the operation of that department. Okay. How many people did you have working under you at that point? About twenty, maybe twenty-five. And really the only thing you are going to be controlling equipment-wise is this denora mercury chlorinator? (Witness nods head affirmatively.) And you have salt water coming in and caustic soda and chlorine coming out? Yes. All right. How long were you doing REGIONAL REPORTING SERVICE, INC. HARTOLDMON0031970 1 2 A. 3 4 Q. 5 6 7 8 9 1 0 A. 1 1 Q. 12 1 3 A. 1 4 Q. 15 16 17 18 19 20 A. 2 1 Q. 22 A. 23 that? About two years, I think. I didn't keep a record of all this. We're just looking for rough estimates. That kind of precision is not that important. Did you get better hours, I guess, when you were production f oreman I hope, less night shift to work finally? You get a twenty-four-hour-a-day job. If something happens, your phone is ringing? Yes. You are the only one. And I take it that that was understood by people in the plant, that if they had a concern they were not only free but encouraged to communicate with their fore-people in management to address those problems? Ab solutely, yes. Okay. After that what did you do? I believe I went to the biphenyl department. REGIONAL REPORTING SERVICE, INC. HARTOLDMON0031971 52 1 Q. 2 3 A. 4 Q. 5 6 A. 7 8 Q. 9 10 1 1 A. 1 2 Q. 13 14 A. 15 Q. 16 1 7 A. 18 19 2 0 Q. 21 22 2 3 A. Okay. Would that be a promotion or just something different? Different. Okay. And how many folks were working under you in the biphenyl department? Guess again, probably forty, forty to fifty. And again, were you the total responsibility foreman for that department ? Yes. And there you're taking benzene feed stocks and turning it into biphenyl? Yes. What else did you use to do that, chemically speaking? Heat. It is like -- It is the same principle as cracking gasoline, oil cracking. But you weren'ttrying tocrack the benzene molecule, were you? You were trying to fuse a couple of them? You run itthrough afurnace. REGIONAL REPORTING SERVICE, INC. HARTOLDMON0031972 53 1 Q. 2 3 4 A. 5 Q. 6 7 8 A. 9 1 0 Q. 1 1 A. 1 2 Q. 1 3 A. 14 Q. 1 5 A. 16 17 1 8 Q. 19 20 2 1 A. 2 2 Q. 23 Okay. What was the -- I mean, the biphenyl molecule had hydrogen on it, did it not ? Yes. What was the hydrogen source? The same hydrogen that is already there in the benzene? It is already there in the benzene. It is liberated when it cracks. So did you have a hydrogen off-gas? Yes. What did you do with that? Use it in HB-40. Which was what? That's the heat transfer fluid that we talked about earlier, another department. Okay. And then you just shipped the biphenyl I assume to the Aroclor department ? Yes. So again, a pretty simple process in terms of what is coming in and going REGIONAL REPORTING SERVICE, INC. HARTOLDMON0031973 4 1 2 3 4 A. 5 Q. 6 7 8 9 1 0 A. 11 12 13 14 15 16 1 7 Q. 18 19 20 21 2 2 A. 2 3 Q. out, but probably not simple like that in terms of what happens in the me antime ? Absolutely. I mean, you know, yes. Is it a -- Some chemical reactions run pretty smooth, and others don't. Was the process of turning benzene into biphenyl one you had to monitor real close? All the processes were monitored very close. Each job had a particular person assigned to that particular part of that process. So I don't know what you mean by the definition of monitored close. My impression is all of them were monitored very closely. If you have forty or fifty people working for you, even if you break that up into four shift's worth over folks, that is still a dozen folks, maybe ten a shift - Yes. -- monitoring a furnace that has benzene REGIONAL REPORTING SERVICE, INC. HARTOLDMON0031974 55 1 2 A. 3 Q. 4 A. 5 6 Q. 7 A. 8 Q. 9 1 0 A. 11 12 Q. 13 14 15 1 6 A. 17 Q. 18 1 9 A. 20 2 1 Q. 22 2 3 A. coming in and biphenyl coming out? Yes. What are those ten folks doing all day? Well, there are some other parts, the pumps, unloading the tank cars -- Okay. -- and observing. Maybe not physically doing anything, but they are there just in case? They look at that pump, and they look at that pipe flange. And sometimes that --Monsanto would pay somebody some pretty decent money just to observe something happen eight hours a day, right? Yes. All right. What else did you do after that? After that I transferred to the parathion department. Okay.Any idea of roughly how long you were in the biphenyl department? Again, just a guess, a couple of years. REGIONAL REPORTING SERVICE, INC. HARTOLDMON0031975 56 1 Q. 2 3 A. 4 Q. 5 6 7 A. 8 9 Q. 1 0 A. 1 1 Q. 12 13 14 A. 15 1 6 Q. 17 18 1 9 A. 20 2 1 Q. 22 2 3 A. Okay. Now you are over in that agricultural section? Yes . ' Did they make you change colors of the uniform or start rooting for Auburn or something like that? They sure did. They had a different philosophy about life. Really? Yeah. I was joking, but were they different entities philosophically as well as on the company chart? Very close-knit group. I thought the others were until I got over there. And they looked upon you as -- like you had come from Kentucky or some other alien nation? No, not that -- It was just that you have to earn the respect of the family. Okay. How big a family are wetalking about? Eighty, I'm guessing,people. REGIONAL REPORTING SERVICE, INC. HARTOLDMON0031976 57 1 Q. 2 3 A. 4 Q. 5 A. 6 Q. 7 8 9 1 0 A. 1 1 Q. 1 2 A. 13 Q. 14 A. 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 2 2 Q. 23 All right. And again, were you the man in the parathion -- I shared that. With? Dave Williams. Okay. So what did -- Same kind of responsibilities as before, make sure things are running smoothly, monitor folks? (Witness nods head affirmatively.) What was the parathion process like? Do you want a description of how it's -- Please. Ethyl alcohol mixed with phosphorus pentasulphide. P2S5reacted to form -- taken to complete reaction, then chlorinated and distilled, and then PNP added to make parathion. I don't think any of this stuff is protected, is it? MR. FITE: You don't get to ask the questions. Well, they are not making it out there any more that you are aware of, are REGIONAL REPORTING SERVICE, INC. HARTOLDMON0031977 58 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 1 0 Q. 11 12 13 14 15 16 1 7 A. 18 19 2 0 Q. 21 22 23 they? And I understand your concern. You don't want to give away trade secrets , but I don't think they are worried about that any more. MR. STEWART: Well, he has a right to consult with his lawyer about that if he wants to, if y'all want to talk about that . At the end of the day you should wind up with this parathion molecule. And what kind of waste if any or off-products if any are in the process? Water, C02, and you have some sulfur in there. Are all those sulfur molecules going in the parathion molecule? We talked about that before. The PNP in the waste stream to the waste treatment plant. I knew about that one. I'm just looking -- For instance, P2S5, we have five sulfur atoms there. If I looked at a parathion formula, are we going to see REGIONAL REPORTING SERVICE, INC. HARTOLDMON0031978 1 2 A. 3 4 Q. 5 6 A. 7 Q. 8 A. 9 Q. 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 1 8 A. 19 2 0 Q. 21 2 2 A. 23 Q. five sulfurs in there? Yeah. The sulfur was -- It was hydrogen sulfide burned to recover the sulfur. Okay. And what did you do with that recovered sulfur? Reused it in P2S5. So you made your own P2S5? Yes, just across, yes. So you didn't have any -- So far in all these processes you have described, there is nothing coming off the production line that isn't either product you are going to sell or something you are going to use as a feed stock in another part of the plant. Did you have anything that you just had to box up and get rid of? The sludge from the waste treatment plant. Okay. What did you do with that, if you know? I don't remember what they did with it. Okay. REGIONAL REPORTING SERVICE, INC. HARTOLDMON0031979 60 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 Q. 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 2 0 A. 21 22 23 MR. STEWART: Can we take a short break? MR. CUNNINGHAM: Sure. (A break was taken.) (Mr. Donald Stewart left the deposition proceedings. ) Okay. We were talking about waste streams or waste product. The only analogy I can give you is like in cooking. When you cook a roast instead of cooking up a batch of parathion, you have your roast and you have some fluid that comes off that you might turn into gravy. But at the end of the day you still have some gunk in that pan that you have to get rid of. Don't you have gunk in your equipment when you are making parathion or chlorine or biphenyl? I believe I covered that with you with the sulfur and the waste stream from the -- the condensation reaction is what they called it, of the parathion, the REGIONAL REPORTING SERVICE, INC. HARTOLDMON0031980 61 1 2 3 4Q 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 Q 15 A 16 Q 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 final stage of that and washing of it and drying of it to the waste treatment plant. You mentioned that you distilled -- There was a distillation process at some point in the parathion manufacture. And in my experience typically a distillation column is going to have, over time, buildup of something in the bottom of it, a still bottom. Do you not have still bottoms in that process? I answered that in reference to your question about the sulfur. So that is what would go down there? Yes. I'm sorry. We are on the same wavelength, then. How long were you the co-foreman for the parathion department? Six or eight years, estimate, just an e s timat e. Okay. Now, if my math is -- That puts us into the mid '70s. Does that sound REGIONAL REPORTING SERVICE, INC. HARTOLDMON0031981 62 1 2 A. 3 4 Q. 5 A. 6 Q. 7 A. 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 1 7 Q. 18 19 2 0 A. 21 2 2 Q. 23 about right ? Well, I may have missed something in there, because I gave you estimates. I'm more concerned with sequence. I forgot something. Okay. I spent some time either just before or just after my stint as the instrument trainer as a start-up assistant to the central engineering division engineer on an expansion for what we call the solid Aroclors, check out the start-up and training of the people and the actual start of it. That would have been in that time '65, '66, '64 to '66, in that area. You think this was a halfyear project, a month? Any rough idea how long you spent on that ? I think less than a year, again, gu e s stimat e. And again, what was your responsibility or role in this start-up process? REGIONAL REPORTING SERVICE, INC. HARTOLDMON0031982 63 1 A. 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 1 1 Q. 12 13 14 15 1 6 A. 1 7 Q. 18 19 2 0 A. 21 22 2 3 Q. As the equipment would be turned -- There was an interface with the engineering group and the contractor about what part or piece would be turned over. I went through a checklist to see -- to check against what was supposed to be done and what had physically been done and to train the operators, classroom training, field training, and field inspection. When you say check to make sure stuff had been done, you mean in terms of physically do we have the right kinds of piping and flanges and tanks, or do you mean testing? No, physical pieces. Okay. And that I assume wouldn't have been even necessarily a daily thing, wou1d it ? I cannot recall if I shared that along with the instrument training. I cannot recall that. And then you trained the operators of REGIONAL REPORTING SERVICE, INC. HARTOLDMON0031983 64 1 2 3 A. 4 Q. 5 6 7 8 A. 9 Q. 1 0 A. 1 1 Q. 12 A. 1 3 Q. 14 15 1 6 A. 17 Q. 18 19 20 21 22 23 this expanded process in instrumentation and operating principles? Ye s * And was this just identical in terms of the hardware to the existing solid Aroclor equipment but more of it, or was there something different? Basically the same. And what is solid Aroclor? It's solid at ambient temperature. I was going guess that. That is all I know. You don't know what makes it solid at ambient temperatures as opposed to liquid or viscous like other Aroclors? No . Okay. MR. FITE: Are you asking about its chemical properties? MR. CUNNINGHAM: Just what made it solid, if he knew. MR. PRAUSE: The laws of physics and chemistry. REGIONAL REPORTING SERVICE, INC. HARTOLDMON0031984 55 1 Q 2 3 A. 4 Q. 5 6 7 A. 8 Q. 9 10 11 12 13 1 4 A. 15 Q- 16 A. 1 7 Q. 18 19 20 21 2 2 A. 23 But not all Aroclor is solid, is it. o r was it ? No . And as we sit here today, you can't tell me chemically why some of it is liquid and some of it is solid? No . When I hear Aroclor, I'm thinking of s ome thing that every molecule in the barrel is a polychlorinated biphenyl molecule. Am I wrong in that thinking or right in that thinking? MR. PRAUSE: If you know. I do not know . Who wou 1 d know s omething 1ike that ? I do not know . All right . So I take it even though you were helping people with the expansion of the process, in terms of the chemistry of making Aroclor, that wasn't your bag ? No. As I explained earlier, it was from an engineering standpoint of the REGIONAL REPORTING SERVICE, INC. HARTOLDMON0031985 66 1 2 Q. 3 4 5 6 A. 7 8 Q. 9 10 11 12 A. 1 3 Q. 1 4 A. 1 5 Q. 1 6 A. 17 18 19 20 21 2 2 Q. 23 physical pumps, pipes. You in turn would train somebody how to watch the dials to mah suits that the pump was operating at the correct How that instrument functioned to do its job. All right. What else did you do? Once we get past when you were working in the parathion department, where did you go next ? To PNP. And were you the foreman of that? Uh-huh (indicating yes). And roughly how long did you do that? A guess, five or six years. I don't know what this is adding up to, you know. MR. FITE: Don't ask any questions. Just answer his. Okay? No comments, please. It is all right. Again, I wouldn't know if this would have been a lateral move REGIONAL REPORTING SERVICE, INC. HARTOLDMON0031986 67 1 2 3 A. 4 Q. 5 6 A. 7 Q. 8 9 1 0 A. 1 1 Q. 12 1 3 A. 14 15 1 6 Q. 1 7 A. 1 8 Q. 19 2 0 A. 21 2 2 Q. 23 or a promotion. What was your sense of it ? My boss told me to go. Fair enough. How many folks were you taking care of and supervising? Thirty to thirty-five. At the time you were doing this, was the PNP y'all were making just as a feed stock to make parathion? Yes. And tell me how you make PNP or how did you make PNP? You react para-nitroch1orobenzene in the presence of caustic and make para-nitrophenol. The caustic is acting as a catalyst? Yes. So it is not doing anything. It is still -- Well, actually youmake sodium nitrochlorophenol. And that is the compound that acts as the catalyst? REGIONAL REPORTING SERVICE, INC. HARTOLDMON0031987 1 A. 2 3 Q 4 5 6 7 A. 8 9 Q. 10 11 12 13 14 15 A. 16 17 1 8 Q. 19 20 2 1 A. 22 23 Q. Then you wash the sodium out of it and make the PNP. Okay . So at the end of t h o H a \JLt vJL on-- still have caustic, but it i s broken down , done something, and come back together, the salt has? You recycle that a s feed stock to the next batch. And when we do a mass balance on this process we have the compound, the para-nitrochlorobenzene coming in and we have caustic soda coming in. Anything else have to come in to the reactor to make this stuff? Just the medium for the reaction, which is some material from the previous batch, the waste stream in the water. Okay. And what do we have coming out, obviously PNP, obviously the recycled sodium? You have sodium PNP. And you wash the sodium and make the PNP. Just wash it with water? REGIONAL REPORTING SERVICE, INC. HARTOLDMON0031988 69 1 A. 2 Q. 3 4 A. 5 6 7 8 9 Q 1 0 A. 1 1 Q. 12 1 3 A. 14 15 A. 1 6 Q. 17 18 19 20 2 1 A. 2 2 Q. 23 Yeah. So I assume you have a water effluent in this process? It is collected in carbon towers. It is collected in tanks and goes to carbon towers where the PNP is recovered. Then that water goes back to be used to make up the next batch. Okay. Activated carbon. You have a closed loop with thatwaste water basically? Uh-huh (indicating yes). MR. FITE: Say yes. Yes. Again, no kind of gunk at the bottom of the reactor vessel that has to be cleaned out every so often, don't have a gaseous phase of stuff that is coming off that you have to deal with? No. All right. What did you do after the PNP department? REGIONAL REPORTING SERVICE, INC. HARTOLDMON0031989 /u 1 A. 2 Q. 3 A. 4 5 Q. 6 A. 7 Q. 8 9 A. 1 0 Q. 11 12 1 3 A. 14 Q. 15 A. 1 6 Q. 17 1 8 A. 1 9 Q. 2 0 A. 2 1 Q. 2 2 A. 2 3 Q. Went to P2S5 department. And how big -- Thirty-seven people. I remember that. That was my last. Okay. And how did you make P2S5? Mix phosphorus and sulfur. And the sulfur I take it is coming back from whence you sent the P2S5? Yes. You might buy some every year, but for the most part you are recycling it internally ? Yes. And where is the P coming from? Silver Springs, Idaho. And that got consumed, so you had to keep supplying that in the reactor? Yes. What form did it come in? Tank cars. Was it pure phosphorus? Yes. And when you made that compound did you REGIONAL REPORTING SERVICE, INC. HARTOLDMON0031990 71 1 2 3 4 5 6 A. 7 Q. 8 9 A. 1 0 Q. 11 12 13 14 1 5 Q. 16 1 7 A. 18 19 20 2 1 Q. 22 2 3 A. have -- Again, going in we have the pure phosphorus coming in from Idaho, and you have the sulfur coming back in from the parathion department, I guess. Anything else going in to that process? No . Anything else coming out besides the P2S5? No . And I take it throughout these stints with the different departments when you needed laboratory work done, you didn't do it. That got sent to the lab? MR. FITE: At that time? Yeah, whenyou were serving in these other capacities. Ask that question again, please. MR. FITE: When you were a foreman, did you do lab work? THE WITNESS:No. Thank you. But you had lab work done by the lab department, correct? Yes. REGIONAL REPORTING SERVICE, INC. HARTOLDMON0031991 72 1 Q. 2 3 l^L 4 Q. 5 6 A. 7 Q. 8 9 A. 10 1 1 Q. 1 2 A. 1 3 Q. 14 15 A. 1 6 Q. 17 1 8 A. 19 Q. 2 0 A. 21 22 2 3 Q. And those results were reported back to you and the people working under you? Yes. Okay. And did I understand that that was your last position with the company ? No . Okay. What did you do when you left the P2S5 department? I became the trainer for the whole pi ant . Do you remember when that happened? No. If -- '80s or '90s? Can we break it -- Do you have a feel for that? '80s. Okay. And what kinds of things did you train folks in? Instrumentation. Okay. And reviewing andupdating SMPs, manufacturing processes, and operating So those were your two basic tasks in REGIONAL REPORTING SERVICE, INC. HARTOLDMON0031992 73 1 2 3 4A 5Q 6 7 8A 9Q 10 11 12 A 13 Q 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 A 22 Q 23 that capacity? You didn't go out and training people in how to unload tank cars, or did you? Ho, no. But you might have trained people in any department on how to read a pressure gauge ? Yes, yes. And how to record what they were seeing, what to do if they need to at a particular point, that sort of thing? More like how it worked. Okay. At that point did there cease to be someone doing instrumentation training within the particular departments and you just kind of took care of it for everybody? In other words, they created this new position and carved out work other folks had been doing? The other work continued too. So you were like another layer of training? REGIONAL REPORTING SERVICE, INC. HARTOLDMON0031993 74 1 A, 2 Q 3 4 A, 5Q 6 A. 7Q 8A 9 10 Q 11 12 A 13 14 15 Q 16 17 18 A 19 Q 20 21 A 22 Q 23 A Yes, yes. All right. Who would you report to in The plant production superintendent. Okay. And what did you do after that? Went to shipping and distribution. And when did that happen ? '88, something like that, '89, in that -- late '80s. And what were your responsibilities in shipping and distribution? Getting all materials in, getting finished goods out, and really anything in between, and some purchases. You would communicate with Idaho about getting phosphorus in and whoever about getting benzene in, that sort of stuff? (Witness nods head affirmatively.) Except I guess you didn't need the phosphorus any more at that point? That's right, yes. And what was your next That's was it. REGIONAL REPORTING SERVICE, INC HARTOLDMON0031994 75 1 Q. 2 A. 3 Q. 4 A. 5 6 7 8 Q. 9 10 11 12 1 3 A. 14 1 5 Q. 1 6 A. 1 7 Q. 18 19 A . 2 0 Q. 21 2 2 A. 2 3 Q. Are you still there? No. Are youretired? Now I am under contract as a consultant. I still go out and do some work in shipping and receiving and export shipments and that. All right. And I don't need to know some important secret, but I'm just curious. What would they have you come back -- Give me an example where they would call and say let's call -- Well, the person that replaced me, vacation. When did you retire? 1994. So how many weeks would you guess you have worked there since 1994? Forty. Okay. And all forty of those weeks on shipping and distribution kind of stuff? Yes. They haven't asked you to come back as a REGIONAL REPORTING SERVICE, INC. HARTOLDMON0031995 7b 1 2 A. 3 Q. 4 5 6 7 A. 8 Q. 9 10 11 12 13 14 A . 1 5 Q. 16 17 18 19 2 0 A. 2 1 Q. 2 2 A. 2 3 Q. special consultant in the lab? No . Okay. I think I asked you earlier. You have never previously been deposed or given testimony in a court of law; is that correct? I believe that to be correct. Okay. I represent a lot of folks who live down in Calhoun County and some down even in Eastaboga. Do you know of anyone you have talked to who is a plaintiff in the related cases we are here about today? No . Let me talk to you a moment about what you have done as far as getting ready for this deposition, please. Who did you talk to prior to coming here today about this deposition? (Indicating.) Mr. Prause? Yes. And when did you and he chat? REGIONAL REPORTING SERVICE, INC. HARTOLDMON0031996 1 2 3 Q. 4 A. 5 Q* 6 7 8 9 1 0 A. 11 12 Q. 13 14 15 16 1 7 A. 1 8 Q. 19 20 21 2 2 Q. 2 3 A. MR. FITE: Just a minute . Who else did you talk to? And Mr. Fite? Yes . I wasn't through. See, I told you I would do that. I would cut you off in mid-answer. So who else have you chatted with? MR. FITE: About being prepared for the deposition? That's it. am . My wife. She knows where I That is an honest answer. Most guys never bother to mention that. You didn't call anybody that you used to work with at the plant and say, "I've been trying to remember such and such"? No. And how long ago did you first talk to anybody about this? MR. FITE: About the deposition, you mean? About testifying. I have my notes athome, but I don't REGIONAL REPORTING SERVICE, INC. HARTOLDMON0031997 78 1 2 3 4 Q. 5 6 7 8 9 1 0 Q. 11 12 13 14 15 16 1 7 Q. 18 A. 1 9 Q. 20 21 22 A. 2 3 Q. remember. A couple of weeks. MR. FITE: Just your best judgment. Weeks versus months versus years. A couple of - MR. FITE: A couple of weeks, is that about right ? THE WITNESS: I believe that's right. Are you aware you have been identified as someone who is going to testify in this case or been asked to testify in this case on behalf of Monsanto? MR. PRAUSE: He just testified today. You mean at trial? MR. CUNNINGHAM: Yes. As a witness attrial. No . Has anyone talked to you about what you would be able to say as a witness at trial? No . Have youreviewed anything in the form REGIONAL REPORTING SERVICE, INC. HARTOLDMONOQ31998 79 1 2 A. 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 Q. 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 A. of documentation or records? No . MR, FITE: Now, think about that a minute. We looked at some stuff yesterday. Do you remember? MR. PRADSE: Not with -- MR. FITE: Am I wrong? Let me ask you something. Whether you reviewed anything for this case or some other case, what I want to make sure is that everything you are telling me is based on your independent recollection of stuff and not something that was refreshed very recently by something I'm not able to look at. So far is everything you have told me today so far and in the future going to be based totally on your independent , or have you looked at documents that some of your answers could well be taken from? The first question is I have not looked REGIONAL REPORTING SERVICE, INC. HARTOLDMON0031999 1 2 Q. 3 4 A. 5 Q. 6 7 8 A. 9 Q. 10 11 12 13 14 A . 15 Q. 16 17 18 19 20 A. 2 1 Q. 22 23 at a doc ument. Okay. Have you read depositions that other people may have given in the case? No . So obviously the only thing you could testify from is our own independent Yes, that's correct. Is there anythingthatyou requested or you -- when they started talking to you about what subjects might be covered and you said, "Well, I would like to see X, Y, or Z that will help me"? No . Is there something asyou sit heretoday that you would like to see that you think would help you refresh your recollection about what you are going to testify about at trial? No . What is it you have brought with you? You have Mr. Prause's card I see and a note pad there with you. Is there REGIONAL REPORTING SERVICE, INC. HARTOLDMON0032000 8i 1 2 3 A. 4 Q. 5 6 A. 7 8 Q. 9 10 11 1 2 A. 1 3 Q. 14 15 16 A. 1 7 Q. 1 8 A. 1 9 Q. 20 21 22 A. 2 3 Q. anything else in there, or is it all blank pages? It is all blank pages. What do you understand the scope of your testimony will be at trial? I don't understand it. I don't know anything about it. So no one has asked you questions to try and figure out what you could even testify about at trial. Is that your testimony? That's right, yes. I was going to ask you how Aroclor was made, but it sounds like that is the one thing out there that you didn't do. That' s right. You don't know how Aroclor was made? I never worked there in that department. Okay. And you can't tell me, I'm going to bet, the difference between Aroclor 1242 and Aroclor 1262. Can you? No . Okay. If an inquisitive guy like me REGIONAL REPORTING SERVICE, INC. HARTOLDMON0032001 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 Q. 10 1 1 A. 12 1 3 Q. 14 15 1 6 A. 1 7 Q. 18 19 2 0 A. 21 2 2 Q. 23 wanted to know stuff like that about Aroclor, do you know of somebody who is still alive who knows how they made it, what the process generated, how you made one versus another, how you tested it? MR. PRAUSE: I think he told you he knew how. He did some testing on Aroclor. Sure, as far as the dielectric capacity and the HB-40 test. Ask your question again. Do I know how it is made ? I assume you understand that they take a biphenyl molecule and they chlorinate it. And that makes Aroclor. Yes. But do you know what else if any things are involved in terms of catalysts, feed stocks, what the waste streams would be? No, I do not. I know chemically how it is done. I mean, you don't how they make 1242 versus 1262, or if you do, I would like REGIONAL REPORTING SERVICE, INC. HARTOLDMON0032002 83 1 2 A. 3 4 Q. 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 A. 12 Q 13 14 A . 15 Q. 16 17 18 19 20 2 1 A. 22 23 to know. I believe it is the amount of chlorine added,, but I'm not positive. And I think you are right about that, but I don't know how they -- I was hoping you could tell me how they differentiate between the amount of chlorine they have in a particular batch. But I'm guessing you are not the man to ask that. I'm not. But I'm hoping you might know the man who is and give me a name. I can't. Back in the '60s when you were supervising some workers and working in the lab and teaching people about instrumentation and such, what kind of personal protective equipment was available at the plant? Safety shoes, gloves, hats, glasses, goggles, respirators, gas masks, self contained breathing apparatus. REGIONAL REPORTING SERVICE, INC. HARTOLDMON0032003 84 1 Q. 2 3 4 5 A. 6 Q. 7 8 9 A. 1 0 Q. 11 12 13 A. 14 15 1 6 Q. 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 I'm going to assume that some of those were mandatory for everybody at all times and others were used as necessary. Is that correct? Yes. Things like safety shoes, hard hats, goggle s, if you are out in the plant you had to have those on? Yes. What sort of folks would be having the respirators, the masks, and the self contained breathing apparatus? Somebody who might be hooking up a chlorine tank car in case something happened. Okay. I have seen documentation talking about -- and this may have been Illinois, one of the Illinois plants -- the toxic departments, that some departments were considered a toxic department and others were not. Do you ever recall anything like that in Annist on ? REGIONAL REPORTING SERVICE, INC. HARTOLDMON0032004 85 1 A. 2 Q. 3 4 5 6 A. 7 Q. 8 A. 9 Q. 1 0 A. 1 1 Q. 12 13 14 15 A. 1 6 Q. 17 18 1 9 A. 20 21 2 2 Q. 23 No. You mentioned that you weren't supposed to eat in t hs 1 s. b Wets t h s r s s. designated place to eat for the production workers? Yes. Again, away from the production? Yes. Smoking I'm sure was not permitted? Designated areas only. Any of these departments have ventilation systems designed to keep fumes to an acceptable level for the workers? None that I'm aware of. What about medical testing? Did you ever get physicals or any kind of medical testing that you can recall? Yes. I was routinely tested for cholinesterase levels while I was in parathion. And what is your understanding of the purpose for that? REGIONAL REPORTING SERVICE, INC. HARTOLDMON0032005 86 1A 2 3 4Q 5A 6 7Q 8 9A 10 Q 11 12 A 13 Q 14 A 15 Q 16 17 A 18 19 Q 20 21 A 22 Q 23 A To guard against and alert any exposure to the cholinesterase inhibiting parathion. And that is a live enzyme? No. It is the motor systems, your nerves. Okay. That's right. Because that is what parathion does to little bugs. Yes. If your cholinesterase level got to a certain level, what would happen? I don't know. It never got there. Congratulations. Obviously. I'm here. Any other -- When you say routinely, how often would that be done? Quarterly. I'm guessing. I don't remember. I just don't recall. Any other kinds of, like I say, annual physicals, chest x-rays? Yes, all of that. Where would that be conducted? At the plant medical facility. REGIONAL REPORTING SERVICE, INC. HARTOLDMON0032006 87 1 Q. 2 A. 3 4 Q. 5 6 A. 7 Q. 8 9 A. 1 0 Q. 11 12 A . 1 3 Q. 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 A. 2 2 Q. 23 On-site? On-site and different areas in Anniston, labs, a combination of all those = You didn't do x-rays at the plant I assume? No. All right. Was some baseline work done when you started there in the '50s? Yes. Have you to your knowledge had your serum or fat analyzed for PCB content? No . You talked to me about the waste water stream coming off the parathion department that went to the activated sludge treatment system that you analyzed when you were in the lab so many years ago. Any other waste streams that you recall analyzing while you worked there at Monsanto? No . Would I be safe in assuming that a substantial portion of your income REGIONAL REPORTING SERVICE, INC. HARTOLDMON0032007 1 2 A. 3 Q. 4 A. 5 6 Q. 7 8 A. 9 Q. 10 11 12 A. 1 3 Q. 14 15 16 A. 1 7 Q. 18 A. 1 9 Q. 20 2 1 A. 2 2 Q. 23 consists of a pension from Monsanto? No . So you have no pension with Monsanto? Yes, I do. But the answer to your question was -- Your question was -- Was it a substantialportion of your income? What is substantial? It is not what I think. Do you consider it to be a substantial portion of your inc ome ? No. Do you -- Have you discussed whether or not you will be compensated for your time testifying in the case? No . What about your time here today? No . You are not going to be or have not discussed it? Have not discussed it. Did you ever visit -- Strike that. To your knowledge the departments REGIONAL REPORTING SERVICE, INC. HARTOLDMON0032008 89 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 A 8 Q. 9 10 1 1 A. 12 Q. 1 3 A. 14 Q. 15 A. 1 6 Q. 1 7 A. 1 8 Q. 19 2 0 A. 2 1 Q. 2 2 A. 2 3 Q. that you ran in Anniston, the biphenyl department, the chlorine department, the parathion dpartmsnt r st cstraf did they have companion type facilities in other Monsanto plants in the U.S. or around the world? I? 2S 5 Are you familiar with how that department worked at the other place that Monsanto -- Yes. How are you so familiar? I visited the site. Where is that other site? East St. Louis, Illinois. Is that the Krummrich plant? Yes. When do you recall visiting that, when you were doing the P2S5 department? Yeah. That would have been mid '80s roughly? Yes. Did it strike you that the Krummrich REGIONAL REPORTING SERVICE, INC. HARTOLDMON0032009 90 1 2 3 A. 4 Q. 5 A. 6 7 8 9 Q. 10 1 1 A. 12 1 3 Q. 14 15 16 1 7 A. 18 19 20 2 1 Q. 22 23 plant was comparableto Anniston or better or worse? It was older. Okay. But that'sthe only thing that I saw, that I compared, is it was older, but it was a s efficiently run. Nothing -- No is the answer to your question. When is the first time you remember going to Krummrich? When I was in the chlorine plant back in the mid '60s or whatever that was. Okay. Didyou see anything at Krummrich in the mid '60s and remember thinking, wow, that is not the way it is done in Anniston? They hadfull-time firemen. That's one thing that struck me. MR. PRAUSE: Full-time what? THE WITNESS: Firemen. I assume at Anniston you just had staff people who in the event of a fire would put an a hat basically and become REGIONAL REPORTING SERVICE, INC. HARTOLDMON0032010 1 2 A. 3 Q* 4 5 6 A. 7 Q. 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 1 6 A. 1 7 Q. 18 19 20 2 1 A. 2 2 Q23 firemen? Yes. Anything sIsg shout th.G lab ---- t m s 9. n r did you get a chance to see the lab back then? Ho, no. So you can't compare what was available to y 1 all in Anniston -- That is probably not fair. Wewere talking about something different. Do you know how the laboratory equipment and staffing and facilities in Anniston compared to those that we would have found at other Monsanto facilities in the '50s? No. What's the first time if ever that you can recall visiting alaboratory operated by Monsanto other than the one i n Anniston? I never did. D o you know if they had a research laboratory somewhere in the United REGIONAL REPORTING SERVICE, INC. HARTOLDMON0032011 92 1 2 A. 3 4 Q. 5 A. 6 Q 7 A.. 8 Q. 9 A. 10 11 1 2 Q. 13 14 A. 1 5 Q. 16 17 18 19 20 2 1 Q. 22 23 States in the '50s or '60s? My understanding is they had a research group in the St. Louis area. What about Dayton? Ever heard of -- Dayton, Ohio? Yeah. Dayton labs? Yeah. What is that? I don't know. In the telephone directory it is listed as one of the locations. That's all I know. They certainly weren't providing you any support that you knew about? Not me. When you were foreman of these various departments, was one of your jobs to basically police the neighborhood, to make sure that things looked decent? MR. FITE: Excuse me. What do you mean by neighborhood? Your department. In other words, if you are in charge of the parathion department, one of the things you are REGIONAL REPORTING SERVICE, INC. HARTOLDMON0032012 yj 1 2 3 4A 5Q 6 7 8A 9Q 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 Q 18 A 19 20 21 Q 22 23 going to make sure of is that it didn't look trashy around the parathion departient ? Yes. In fact that is good engineering practice, isn't it, to keep your area of responsibility looking sharp? Yes. Who would have had responsibility in the broader sense of outside the particular departments, the broader -- the plant facility? Do you know who would be in charge of making sure it is properly policed and kept neat and orderly? MR. FITE: At any point in time? MR. CUNNINGHAM: Yes. I'll take any name or a position . There was a position. I don't recall what it was called, but there was a position for that. And this would be the person who would be responsible for the physical facilities outside the individual REGIONAL REPORTING SERVICE, INC. HARTOLDMON0032013 1 2 A. 3 Q. 4 5 A. 6 Q. 7 8 A. 9 Q. 1 0 A. 11 12 1 3 Q. 14 15 A. 16 1 7 Q. 18 19 2 0 A. 21 2 2 Q. 23 departments? Yes, yes. Okay. Did you ever have anything to do with the landfills? No . Do you have any idea of where the landfills were? It was across the road from the plant. Across which road? 202, Highway -- Well, it was 78 and then 202. But it is across the highway from the plant. And what went up there as far as you know, if you know? I don't know. I had nothing to do with it . Okay. What kind of a library did they maintain at Jacksonville State in the area of chemistry? Library ? MR. FITE: When it was started? When you were there. Were you one of the first people to go through and get a REGIONAL REPORTING SERVICE, INC. HARTOLDMON0032014 95 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 A. 9 Q. 10 11 12 A. 1 3 Q. 14 15 A. 1 6 Q. 17 18 19 20 A. 2 1 Q. 22 2 3 A. chemistry degree at Jacksonville State, or had they been teaching that a while there? MR. PRAUSE: How about letting him answer the question about the library first. MR. CUNNINGHAM: Okay. I'm sorry. I would say adequate. And how long had they been teaching and awarding chemistry degrees at Jacksonville State? I don't know. You don't have any sense that you were one of the first guys through? Absolutely not. Did you ever find yourself resorting to that library to look something up when you were involved in the lab at Monsanto? No . You had the resources you needed right there on-site? Yes. REGIONAL REPORTING SERVICE, INC. HARTOLDMON0032015 96 1 Q. 2 3 A. 4 Q. 5 A. 6 Q. 7 8 A. 9 Q. 1 0 A. 11 12 13 14 Q 15 A. 16 Q. 17 1 8 A. 19 20 21 22 23 Do you know who Mr. Mu Hally is, M-u-l-l-a-l-l-y? Yes, Ido. Who was he or is he? A very goodfriend. Okay. I'm going to bet you would tell me he is a good guy. He is the reason I retired. Because he retired? No. He had cancer and had less than six months to live. And he died, and I just thought I needed to take care of some business. Okay. He was a very, very, very good man. Okay. But you said he is the reason you retired. It doesn't have any business here. We were just close friends, and I had never even thought about retiring when he had cancer. He told me the day we were supposed to leave and go pheasant hunting that he had six months left. I REGIONAL REPORTING SERVICE, INC. HARTOLDMON0032016 97 1 2 3 q4 A. 5 Q. 6 A. 7 Q. 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 A. 15 1 6 > 17 18 A. 1 9 Q. 20 2 1 A. 2 2 Q. 23 just thought "I don't need to work any longer. " Other things you needed to be doing? Right. What kind of cancer did he die of? Tumor, stomach tumor, very fast growing. What were -- There was a dump task force created in the early '70s, and I have seen a document that describes him as the chairman of that task force. Do you know in the early '70s what his real title would have been or what he would have been doing? I think he was in maintenance,would be my guess. Do youknow what his educational background might have been? No . How about Hal Brazelton? What was his job? In the maintenance department, Ithink. And education-wise, do you have any idea what he would have been trained in? REGIONAL REPORTING SERVICE, INC. HARTOLDMON0032017 98 1 A. 2 3 Q. 4 A. 5 Q. 6 A. 7 Q. 8 A. 9 1 0 Q. 1 1 A. 12 13 1 4 Q. 15 1 6 A. 17 18 1 9 Q. 2 0 A. 21 Q. 2 2 A. 2 3 Q. I believe he was a chemical engineer. I believe that. Is he still at the plant? No . Still around? I haven't seen him for twenty years. J. L. Etheredge? Can we come back to that? That doesn't -- T. W. Lawrence? Tom Lawrence? MR. PRAUSE: What's the question? MR. CUNNINGHAM: If he knows them. And what did Mr. Lawrence do at the Monsanto plant? I believe Tom was in safety when he -- He was engineering and safety, I believe. Is he still around these days? No? I do not know. He is not at Anniston. J. H. Powell? Yes, I know him. What did he do? REGIONAL REPORTING SERVICE, INC. HARTOLDMON0032018 99 1 A. 2 3 q. 4 A. 5 Q. 6 7 A. 8 Q. 9 1 0 A. 1 1 Q. 12 1 3 A. 1 4 Q. 15 16 1 7 A. 18 19 20 21 22 23 He was a foreman in shipping, I believe, a night superintendent. Education--wise what do you think -- I don't know. Do you know if he is still in the Anniston area? I know that he is not. Where would one find Mr. Powell, if you know ? I do not know. You mentioned Mr. Lawrence is not in Anniston. Do you know where he is? I don't. And E. G. Wright, I guess they deposed him earlier. He is still around, is he not? He is in Chattanooga. MR. CUNNINGHAM: That's all I have. MR. PRAUSE: We have noquestions. (The deposition concluded at 12:20 p.m.) REGIONAL REPORTING SERVICE, INC. HARTOLDMON0032019 10 0 1 I do hereby certify that the witness 2 whose attached deposition was taken before me 3 was by me first duly cautioned and sworn to 4 tell nothing but the truth in the cause 5 aforesaid; that the testimony contained herein 6 was by me reduced to writing in the presence 7 of said witnesses by means of stenography and 8 afterwards transcribed by means of computer 9 aided transcription. The foregoing is a true 1 0 and accurate transcript of the whole of the 1 1 testimony given by said witness, as aforesaid. 1 2 I do further certify that I am not 1 3 connected by blood or marriage with any of the 1 4 parties or their attorneys or agents and that 1 5 I am not an employee of any of them, nor 1 6 interested in the matter of controversy. 17 IN WITNESS WHEREOF, I have hereunto set 1 8 my hand and affixed my notarial seal at 1 9 Gadsden, Alabama, County of Etowah, this 18th 2 0 day of January 1999. 21 Deborah Salers Garrett 2 2 Certified Shorthand Reporter Registered Professional Reporter 2 3 Notary Public, Alabama-at-Large My Commission expires: 3-7-2001 REGIONAL REPORTING SERVICE, INC. HARTOLDMON0032020 10 1 1 WITNESS' CERTIFICATE o 2 I, the undersigned, NORMAN MADISON, do hereby certify that I have read the foregoing 3 sition transcript and that to the best of nowledge said deposition is true and 4 accurate with the exception of the following corrections listed below: 5 Page | Line | Reason for Change or Correction 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 2 3 (DATE ) (SIGNATURE) REGIONAL REPORTING SERVICE, INC. HARTOLDMON0032021