Document ZB9LXvVmGr2Ve2O48kxZboyZp

17 4 1 IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT FOR THE EASTERN DISTRICT OF PENNSYLVANIA 2 3 4 In re: MDL DOCKET NO. 764 5 TEXAS EASTERN TRANSMISSION Deposition of: 6 CORPORATION PCB : CONTAMINATION INSURANCE ROGER E, HATTON, 7 COVERAGE LITIGATION. : Ph.D. Volume II 8 9 10 11 1 2 TRANSCRIPT of testimony as taken by 1 3 and before TOMMY LARUE MILLER, a Certified 1 4 Shorthand Reporter and Notary Public, at the 1 5 offices of HUSCH, EPPENBERGER, DONOHUE 1 6 CORNFELD & JENKINS, 100 North Broadway, Suite 1 7 1300, St. Louis, Missouri, on Thursday, 1 8 January 25, 1990, commencing at 9:05 in the 1 9 forenoon. 20 21 22 23 24 25 waga and spinelli certified shorthand reporters 405 Northfield Avenue West Orange, N. J. 07052 201-731-9666 WATER PCB-SD0000061947 17 5 1 APPEARANCES: 2 COVINGTON & BURLING 1201 Pennsylvania Avenue, N.W. 3 Washington, D. C. 20044 BY: LAIRD HART, ESQ. 4 For the Plaintiff 5 SMITH, HELMS MULL I S S & MOORE 500 NCNB Building 6 P.O. Box 21927 Greensboro, North Carolina 27420 7 BY: GERARD H. DAVIDSON, JR., ESQ. For Monsanto and the witness, 8 Roger E. Hatton 9 HASKELL & PERRIN 200 West Adams Street 1 0 Suite 2600 - Chicago, Illinois 60606 1 1 BY: DAVID W. PIERDINOCK, ESQ. For Continental Casualty Insurance 1 2 Company 1 3 PRETZEL & STOUFFER, Chartered One South Wacker Drive 1 4 Suite 2500 Chicago, Illinois 60606-4673 1 5 BY: MICHAEL R. GREGG, ESQ. For Prudential Reinsurance Company 16 SHEFT & SWEENEY 1 7 11 Broadway New York, New York 10004 1 8 BY: MARY C. BENNETT, ESQ. For American Home Assurance Company, 1 9 Highlands Insurance Group, Insurance Company of the State of Pennsylvania, 2 0 Lexington Insurance Company, Ranger Insurance Company, Republic Insurance 2 1 Company, Stonewall Underwriters, Inc. 22 23 24 25 waga and spinelli certified shorthand reporters 405 Northfield Avenue West Orange, N. J. 07052 201-731-9666 WATER PCB-SD0000061948 17 6 1 APPEARANCES: (Continued) 2 RIVKIN, RADLER, DUNNE & BAYH E A B Plaza 3 Uniondale, New York 11556-0111 BY: DONALD V. PUPKE, JR., ESQ 4 For Associated Electric & Gas Insurance Services, Ltd. and 5 National Surety Corporation 6 CARR, GOODSON & LEE, P.C. 1919 Pennsylvania Avenue 7 Suite 700 Washington, D. C . 2 0 0 0 6 8 BY : GREGORY A KRAUSS , ESQ . MICHAEL P HOOKS , ESQ . 9 For Fidelity & Casualty Insura nee Company 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 ; waga and spinelli certified shorthand reporters 405 IMorthfield Avenue West Orange, N. J. 07052 201-731-9666 WATER PCB-SD0000061949 177 1 INDEX 2 WITNESS DIRECT CROSS 3 ROGER E. HATTON, Ph.D. 4 By: Mr. Krauss 182 5 By: Mr. Plerdinock 191 6 By: Mr. Gregg 235 7 By: Mr. Pupke 240 8 By; Mr, Hart 383 9 1 0 EXHIBITS 1 1 NUMBER DESCRIPTION IDENTIFICATION 1 2 Hatton-17 13 14 15 16 Document entitled, "MCS-153 Transfer to Marketing and Recommended Product Strategy" O.D. No 1400, by R.E. Hatton, dated June 29, 1964, Bates Nos. TEX 000241 through 000285 208 1 7 Hatton-18 18 19 20 Document entitled, "Fire-Resistant Lubricants in Gas Turbines" by Earl P. Farmer, Jr., Bates Nos. 010037959 through 010037968 255 2 1 Hatton-19 22 23 24 25 Document entitled "Part 1 - Synthetic Lube Reduces Fire Hazard At Turbine Stations." by O.M. Fletcher, dated June, 1960, Bates Nos. U 0 0 0 0 2 9 through U000035 255 waga and spinelli certified shorthand reporters 405 Northfield Avenue West Orange, N, J. 07052 201-731-9666 WATER PCB-SD0000061950 17 8 I 1 EXHIBITS 2 (Continued) 3 NUMBER DESCRIPTION IDENTIFICATION 4 Hatton-20 5 6 7 Document entitled, "Part 2-Synthetic Lube Reduces Fire Hazard at Turbine Stations." by O.M. Fletcher, Bates Nos. U000036 through U000040 255 8 Hatton-21 9 10 11 12 13 14 Hatton-22 15 16 17 Hatton-23 18 19 20 PROTECTED EXHIBIT 291 Document entitled, "Texas Eastern Transmission Corporation Fire-resistant Lubricating Oils for Gas Turbines and Centrifugal Compressors, Specifications and General Data - Acceptable Fluids - August, 1962." Bates Nos. 00531534 through 00531535 PROTECTED EXHIBIT Letter to Ted Harrison from C. Larry Bradford, dated January 7, 1972 Bates No. 000801028 327 PROTECTED EXHIBIT 343 Letter entitled, "Dear Sir" from Donald A. Olson, dated February 18, 1970, Bates Nos. 001090265 through 001090267 2 1 Hatton-24 22 23 L e 11 e r e n t i tied , "Dear 351 S i r : I* fro m Walt er E. Schalk, d a t e d Aug u s t 14 , 1970, B a t e s Nos . TEX 000695 through 0 0 0 696 24 25 waga and spinelli certified shorthand reporters 405 Northfield Avenue West Orange, N. J. 07052 201-731-9666 WATER PCB-SD0000061951 I 17 9 1 EXHIBITS 2 (Continued) 3 NUMBER DESCRIPTION IDENTIFICATION 4 Hatton-25 5 6 7 Hatton-26 8 9 10 11 Monsanto Memo, to W. Papageorge from C.L. Bradford, dated September 16, 19 7 1, Bates Nos. TEX 000770 through 000771 Document entitled, "Fire Resistant Lubricants in Gas Turbines" by Earl P. Farmer, Jr., dated May 4-7, 1970, Bates Nos. TEX 000339 through 000352 3 59 384 1 2 Hatton-27 13 14 Call Report to C.L. 386 Bradford from John G. Frederiksen, Date of Call, January 31, 1972, Bates No. TEX 000314 ' 1 5 Hatton-28 16 17 18 Memo to multiple addressees from W.B. Papageorge, dated February 10, 1972, Bates Nos. TEX 000807 through 000817 387 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 waga and spinelli certified shorthand reporters 405 Northfield Avenue West Orange, N. J. 07052 201-731-9666 WATER PCB-SD0000061952 18 0 1 EXHIBITS 2 (Continued) 3 NUMBER DESCRIPTION IDENTIFICATION 4 Hatton-29 5 6 7 Hatton-30 8 9 10 11 Call Report No. 1972-16 from R.E. Hatton, dated April 10, 1972, Bates Nos. TEX 000887 through 000890 PROTECTED EXHIBIT Letter to Walter Woods from R.E. Hatton, dated April 11, 1972 Bates Nos. 000810019, 000810020, 000810021, 000810032 .and 000810018 387 388 1 2 Hatton-31 13 14 Call R eport to C u m m i n 389 Paton from J.G. F r e d e r iksen, D a t e of Call Augus t 2 , 1 97 2 , Bates N o . TEX 0 0 0 3 7 2 1 5 Hatton-32 16 17 L e 11 e r t o C . Pat o n from J . H . Davids o n , dated A u g u s t 2 8, 19 7 2 r Bates Nos. TEX 000785 through 000786 389 1 8 Hatton-33 19 20 21 Call Report to Cumming Paton from J.G. Frederiksen, Date of Call October 24, 1972 Bates No. TEX 000371 389 22 23 24 25 waga and spinelli certified shorthand reporters 405 Northfield Avenue West Orange, N. J. 07052 201-731-9666 WATER PCB-SD0000061953 181 1 EXHIBITS 2 (Continued) 3 NUMBER DESCRIPTION IDENTIFICATION 4 Hatton-34 5 6 7 Hatton-35 8 9 10 Call Report to C. PatonfromJ.G. Frederiksen, Date of Call June 11, 1973, Bates No. TEX 000909 through 000910 390 Call Report to C. Baton 391 from J.G. Frederiksen, Date of Call, June 28-29, 1973, Bates Nos. TEX 000903 through 000905 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 waga and spinelli certified shorthand reporters 405 Northfield Avenue West Orange, N. J. 07052 201-731-9666 WATER PCB-SD0000061954 182 1 ROGER E. HATTON, Ph.D., 2 406 Claybrook Lane, Kirkwood, Missouri 3 63122, having been duly sworn by the 4 Notary, continues his testimony as 5 follows : 6 CONTINUED DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. KRAUSS: 7 Q. I'd like to remind you that 8 you're still under oath from yesterday. 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. Yesterday we were discussing - 1 1 compatibility with regard to the lubricant 1 2 and various components of thepipeline, and 1 3 there were some discussions of compatibility 1 4 with epoxies, and epoxy compatibility tests. 1 5 Do you recall who at Texas 1 6 Eastern you dealt with on that? 1 7 A. No, I do not recall who put in the 1 8 request. It was whoever in the engineering 1 9 department we were dealing with at that time. 2 0 Q . And you don ' t recall who at that 2 1 time. say pre-1963. who that contact was ? 22 A . N o ., I am not __ I am not certai n of 2 3 who was in that position right then. 2 4 Q. Were you dealing with more than 2 5 one person in the pre-1963 time period? waga and spinelli certified shorthand reporters 405 Northfield Avenue West Orange, N. J. 07052 201-731-9666 WATER PCB-SD0000061955 R . E. Hatton 18 3 1 A. Several people in the engineering 2 department at one time. As well as -- I 3 don't -- they would sometimes vary from 4 visit to visit, from contact to contact. 5 Q. Okay. I know yesterday you 6 mentioned Mr. Fletcher. Who else besides 7 Mr. Fletcher in the pre-1963 time period 8 would you have been dealing with? 9 A. I don't remember names. If you find 1 0 names on the Call Reports of the visits down, 1 1 there, they were some of the same people that 1 2 we contacted. 1 3 Q . Okay. And who at Monsanto was 1 4 involved in performing these compatibility 1 5 tests? 1 6 A. Well, the research department would 1 7 have conducted them. 1 8 Let's see, I believe that the 1 9 group leader a t t h a t time was Ken McHugh, but 2 0 I'm n o t -- he's a fellow who took over my 2 1 group. 2 2 Q Were the tests actually 2 3 performed, then, by the research department? 24 A . Yes 2 5 Q. Did they keep records of these waga and spinelli certified shorthand reporters 405 Northfield Avenue West Orange, N. J. 07052 201-731-9666 WATER PCB-SD0000061956 R. E. Hatton 18 4 1 tests? 2 A. I assume so. 3 Q. Do you know how the results of 4 the tests were communicated to Texas Eastern? 5 MR. HART: Objection to form. 6 A. No, I do not. 7 Q. Would the results of these 8 tests, would they have been communicated to 9 Texas Eastern? 10 M R . H ART : Objection. - 11 A. Certainly. Any research that we did 1 2 that was at a cus t o m e r '' s request, the results 1 3 were referred back to him, whether good or 1 4 bad. 1 5 Q And normally w o u 1 d t h i s have 1 6 done in w r i ting? 1 7 M R . HART : Ob j e c t i o n t o form 1 8 Norma lly . 1 9 Q W o u Id records o f t h e s e 2 0 communications to Texas Eastern have been 2 1 kept by Monsanto? 2 2 A. Not necessarily. 2 3 Q. If they were kept, down where 2 4 would Monsanto have kept them? 2 5 A. I am not fully aware of Monsanto's waga and spinelli certified shorthand reporters 405 Northfield Avenue West Orange, N. J. 07052 201-731-9666 WATER PCB-SD0000061957 R. E. Hatton 18 5 1 recordkeeping system. It would have gone 2 into some central area somewhere. 3 If I wanted something I asked my 4 secretary to get it. 5 Q. How would these compatibility 6 tests h a v e been don e ? Are you f a m iliar with 7 the pro cedures ? 8 M R . H ART : I o b j e c t t o the form 9 A. I do not k n o w , or I d o n o t remember 1 0 how t h o s e exact t e s t s were don e . 1 1 Com pat i b i 1 i ty i s ge n e rally done 1 2 by expo sing the mat e r i a 1 to t h e f 1 u i d, and 1 3 m e a s u r i ng change s . But I do n o t k now how 1 4 those t ests were d o n e . I do n o t k now the 1 5 results of them. 1 6 Q . Okay. You were n o t P ersonally 1 7 involved in that particular aspect. 1 8 A. The time period that you're talking 1 9 about, I was over in development, and I had 2 0 nobody working for me in the laboratories 2 1 directly. 2 2 Q. Okay. In the late 1950s who 2 3 were Monsanto's competitors in the fire 2 4 resistant lubricant market? 2 5 MR. HART; Objection. waga and spinelli certified shorthand reporters 405 Northfield Avenue West Orange, N. J. 07052 201-731-9666 WATER PCB-SD0000061958 R. E. Hatton 186 1 Q. If you know. 2 A. Our major competitor was Celanese, 3 with products called Cellulubes, 4 C-e- 1-1 -u- 1 - u - b - e - s , Cellulubes. 5 Q. Were there any other competitors 6 in the synthetic lubricant market? 7 A. The other major producer of phosphate 8 ester materials at that time was E.F. 9 Houghton, and their products were called 1 0 Houghto dash safe, or Houghto-safe . - 1 1 Q. Any other producers of 1 2 fire-resistantlubricants in that time 1 3 period, late 1950s? 1 4 A. Your question -- I think you need to 1 5 define that question further. There were 1 6 obviously many different types of 1 7 fire-resistant fluids available. 1 8 Q. Synthetic fire-resistant 1 9 lubricants. 2 0 MR. DAVIDSON: For use in 2 1 turbines 2 2 MR. KRAUSS: Yes, for use in 2 3 turbines 2 4 MR. DAVIDSON : -- or for any 2 5 use? For use in turbines waga and spinelli certified shorthand reporters 405 Northfield Avenue West Orange, N. J. 07052 201-731-9666 WATER PCB-SD0000061959 R. E, Hatton 18 7 1 A. For us e i n turbines it was primarily 2 the three of u s . 3 Q Are you familiar. o r were you 4 f a m i liar with t h e composition o f the 5 competitor's pro ducts? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q D o you know what the composition 8 of Cellulube was, from Celanese? 9 A. It was a phosphate ester, plus 1 0 additives. - 1 1 Q. Was that a straight phosphate 1 2 ester? 1 3 A. Yes. 1 4 Q . How about the product from E.F. 1 5 Houghton? 1 6 A. Essentially the same product as 1 7 Celanese was promoting, with some variation 1 8 in phosphate ester structure. 1 9 Q. Do you know if in that time 2 0 frame, late -- I'm speaking of the late to 2 1 -- mid to late 1950s, if other natural gas 2 2 pipeline companies besides Texas Eastern were 2 3 interested in using fire-resistant 2 4 lubricants? 2 5 A. Well, if you mean -- do you mean were waga and spinelli certified shorthand reporters 405 Northfield Avenue West Orange, N. J. 07052 201-731-9666 WATER PCB-SD0000061960 E . Hatton 18 8 1 we trying to interest people in 2 fire-resistant lubricants, or did people have 3 an interest in fire-resistant lubricants? 4 Q. Both, really. Was the market 5 such that other natural gas pipelines were 6 seeking to have fire-resistant lubricants in 7 their turbine compressors? 8 M R . HART : Ob j e c t i o n to form. 9 M R . DAVIDSON: Just one minut 1 0 (A discussion takes place off 1 1 the record.) 1 2 A. In one of the exhibits yesterday you 1 3 showed a meeting -- the results of a study 1 4 group meeting that was held. That was 1 5 similar to other meetings which were held at 1 6 that time. 1 7 And they were generally attended 1 8 by v a r i o u s r e p r e sentatives of pipeli n e s and 1 9 e q u i p m e n t p r o d u c e r s , a s well as f 1 u i d 2 0 s u p p 1 i e r s and t h e oil companies, and q u i t e a 2 1 few o t h e r people . The interest was out 2 2 there. 2 3 Q Yes ? 24 A . And p e o p 1 e were concerned about the 2 5 safety o f their equipment, and that -- waga and spinelli certified shorthand reporters 405 Northfield Avenue West Orange, N. J, 07052 201-731-9666 WATER PCB-SD0000061961 R . E . Hatton 18 9 1 s P e c i f i c a 1 1 y in gas 2 both . 3 The --- and there was also one 4 o f the major firms 5 Ca nadian group, and 6 t h e name lea v e s me. 7 f i eld t e s t i n g these 8 t h at t i m e . 9 10 A. Q Was t h Trans Canada 11 12 A. Q -- Tra Trans Canada 1 3 e n o u g h time up ther 1 4 Q And ddoo you recall if Trans 1 5 C a n a d a was s u c c e s s f using the Cellulube? 16 MR. HART; Objection to form. 1 7 A. Paul Neitu was their technical man. 1 8 Made presentations at technical meetings at 1 9 that time, similar to what Texas Eastern was 2 0 making on our product. 2 1 And I don't remember the details 2 2 of those papers, but I know that the general 2 3 opinion was success. 2 4 Q, Do you know if any other natural 2 5 gas pipeline companies were utilizing waga and spinelli certified shorthand reporters 405 Northfield Avenue West Orange, N. J. 07052 201-731-9666 WATER PCB-SD0000061962 R. E. Hatton 19 0 1 Cellulube in the late 1950s? 2 MR. HART: I'll object to the 3 form. 4 A. No, I do not know. 5 Q. How about the E.F. Houghton 6 product? Do you know if any natural gas 7 pipeline companies were utilizing that in 8 their turbines and compressors? 9 A. I ' m not a ware of any f i eld tests on 1 0 those products. 1 1 Q D o you know, then , who the E.F 1 2 Houghton product was marketed to? 1 3 MR. DAVIDSON: Gregg, I'm -- I 1 4 don't want to restrict your latitude too 1 5 much, but it seems to me we're getting a 1 6 little far afield of the designated, agreed 1 7 upon areas of examination here that we talked 1 8 about, when you ask about the competitors and 1 9 their use in pipelines other than Texas 2 0 Eastern. You're really supposed to be 2 1 focusing on the relationship between Monsanto 2 2 and Texas Eastern. 2 3 MR. KRAUSS: Okay. I'm trying 2 4 to get a feel for, you know, what the market 2 5 was at that time period when the relationship waga and spinelli certified shorthand reporters 405 Northfield Avenue West Orange, N. J. 07052 201-731-9666 WATER PCB-SD0000061963 R. E. Hatton 19 1 1 between Texas Eastern and Monsanto was 2 developed . 3 MR. DAVIDSON: I understand. 4 But he's not designated for that. That 5 wasn't one of the things that you agreed to 6 go -- that he would be examined about. 7 MR. HART: I would like to state 8 on the record Texas Eastern's agreement with 9 that objection. 10 MR. KRAUSS: Well, isn't Dr. - 1 1 Hatton also being produced as a personal 1 2 witness? 1 3 MR. DAVIDSON: No. 1 4 MR. KRAUSS: All right. I have 1 5 no further questions. 1 6 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. PIERDINOCK: 1 7 Q. Good morning. Dr. Hatton. 1 8 A. Good morning. 1 9 Q. My named is David Pierdinock. 2 0 I'm from the law firm of Haskell & Perrin and 2 1 we're representing Continental Casualty 2 2 Insurance Company in this litigation. 2 3 To start off with, I'd like to 2 4 ask you a few questions to clarify some of 2 5 the things you said yesterday. waga and spinelli certified shorthand reporters 405 Northfield Avenue West Orange, N. J. 07052 201-731-9666 WATER PCB-SD0000061964 R. E. Hatton 19 2 1 Yesterday you mentioned several 2 people, and I'd like to go through those 3 individuals and try to get a bit more 4 information from you. 5 T o start w i t h , Mr. Jim Davis . 6 Would you plea s e give m e t h e position that h e 7 held in M o n s a n to? 8 A. J i m D a v is, I a s s u m e that you are 9 cone e r n e d a b o u t the t i m e f r a m e we've been 1 0 talk i n g a bout all day y e s t e r d a y . - 1 1 Q - I ' m cone e r n e d with the time 1 2 f r a m e sin c e y o u start e d a t Monsanto until you 1 3 r e t i red. The p o s i t i o n s t h a t you're aware 1 4 that Jim Davis had. 1 5 A. All right. Jim Davis started in 1 6 research, and transferred to the commercial 1 7 development department. And Ibelieve 1 8 finished his career in that department, or 1 9 some -- some follow on to that department, 2 0 doing the same type of work. 2 1 Q. Are you aware of the dates when 2 2 he started in the research department, and 2 3 the date when he left the research department 2 4 and went to the commercial development 2 5 department? waga and spinelli certified shorthand reporters 405 Northfield Avenue West Orange, N. J. 07052 201-731-9666 WATER PCB-SD0000061965 R . E. Hatton 19 3 1 A. No, I am not. 2 Q. Okay. 3 A. I can only -- I will say this, that 4 during theyears that I was in research, he 5 was -- the latter years that I spent in 6 research, he was in commercial development. * 7 And when I transferred to that 8 department I took over some of the projects 9 thatJimhad. 1 0 Q. So, you testified yesterday t h a-t 1 1 you were in the research department from 1946 1 2 to 1960. 13 A. CJh-huh . 1 4 Q. So you're saying in 1 5 approximately the late '50s he was in the 1 6 development department? 17 A. Yes. 1 8 MR. HART: Objection to form. 1 9 Q. Do you know the products that he 2 0 worked on in the research department with 2 1 regards to Texas Eastern? 22 A. G e e, I don't -- 2 3 Q Let me rephrase the question - 24 A . I don't feel qualified t o answer that 2 5 q u e s t i o n . I am not an expert o n his career. waga and spinelli certified shorthand reporters 405 Northfield Avenue West Orange, N. J. 07052 201-731-9666 WATER Hatton 1 94 1 Q, Let me rephrase the question. 2 Are you aware that he worked on 3 fire-resistant products while he was in the 4 research department? 5 M R . HART: Objec t i o n . 6 T o your knowledg e . 7 M R ., HART: Same o b j e c t i o n 8 M R , DAVIDSON: I f you k n o 9 A. I just am not sure. 1 0 Q. Okay. While Mr. Davis was in 1 1 the commercial development department, are 1 2 you aware that he worked on fire-resistant 1 3 products? 1 4 MR. HART: Objection. 15 A. Yes, he did. He was -- he is the one 1 6 who did the work on turbine lubr i c a n t s . 1 7 Q Do you know w h e t h e r Mr. Davis is 1 8 still alive? 1 9 A. No, he is not. 2 0 Q. Yesterday you mentioned Mr. Earl 2 1 Farmer, Texas Eastern, wasone of your 2 2 contacts at Texas Eastern. Do you remember 2 3 the extent of your contacts with him? 2 4 A. The only one I remember clearly is 2 5 discussions with regard to the paper that he waga and spinelli certified shorthand reporters 405 Northfield Avenue West Orange, N. J. 07052 201-731-9666 WATER PCB-SD0000061967 R. E. Hatton 19 5 1 wrote . 2 Q . Were these discussions held 3 leading u p to the paper that he wrote, or 4 subsequen t to the paper that he wrote? 5 M R . HART: Objection. 6 A. I don't re member the exact timing 7 our discussions. 8 Q B u t they were regarding the 9 paper., W as the paper already written? 10 A. Th e data had been accumulated. I - 1 1 I can'' t t ell you when -- the date he wrote 1 2 the paper. I don't know exactly. 1 3 But I do know that I supplied 1 4 -- Monsanto supplied the data for his 1 5 tabulations of properties. 1 6 Q. So these discussions regarded 1 7 the data that he used for his papers. 1 8 MR. HART: Objection. 1 9 A. Limited, as far as we were concerned, 2 0 to the physical and chemical properties and 2 1 the laboratory test results on our product. 2 2 Q. Okay. Mr. O.M. Fletcher of 2 3 Texas Eastern. 2 4 A. Yes. 2 5 Q. You said yesterday that he was waga and spinelli certified shorthand reporters 405 Northfield Avenue West Orange, N. J. 07052 201-731-9666 WATER PCB-SD0000061968 R. E. Hatton 196 1 your exclusive contact at Texas Eastern. 2 What did you mean by that? 3 MR. HART: I'll object to the 4 form. 5 A. I do not remember using the term 6 exclusive. Maybe I did, but -- 7 Q. Let me refresh -- 8 A. -- but a better word is major contact, 9 in the early days of the program. 1 0 Mr. Fletcher was out looking f o-r 1 1 fire-resistant materials, and came to 1 2 Monsanto, as well as other companies, seeking 1 3 such materials. And we followed up on that 1 4 contact, naturally. 1 5 Q. You said the early days of the 1 6 program. Can you give me more of a time 1 7 frame than that? 1 8 Was it during the period that 1 9 you were employed as a research chemist? 2 0 A. Yes. That I can define. 2 1 To give you a closer date, if 2 2 you look at -- again, look at Earl Farmer's 2 3 paper, which gives a pretty good history of 2 4 this program, you can see when he was out 2 5 looking for the products. And that will give waga and spinelli certified shorthand reporters 405 Nortbfield Avenue West Orange, N. J. 07052 201-731-9666 WATER PCB-SD0000061969 R. E. Hatton 19 7 1 you a range of dates you're looking for. 2 Q. Okay. But I'm looking for your 3 knowledge, independent of that paper. 4 A. Well -- 5 Q. Would you say that your contacts 6 with Mr. Fletcher were at the early part of 7 your employment as a research chemist? 8 You said yesterday you were 9 employed as research chemist from '46 to 1 0 1960. Could you say that it was before - 1 1 1955? 1 2 MR. DAVIDSON: No, I don't think 1 3 that's what he said. He said it was in the 1 4 early days of the program. 1 5 A. The program. 1 6 MR . DAVIDSON : Not his 1 7 employment, or his work as a research 1 8 chemist . 1 9 MR. PIERDINOCK: Exactly. Now 2 0 I'm trying to narrow it down now to whether 2 1 he remembers it was this period -- it was in 2 2 the early part of his employment as a 2 3 research chemist, or whether it was in the 2 4 later part of his employment as a research 2 5 chemist at Texas Eastern. waga and spinelli certified shorthand reporters 405 Northfield Avenue West Orange, N. J. 07052 201-731-9666 WATER PCB-SD0000061970 R. E. Hatton 19 8 1 A. I can only say it was in the period 2 from 1948 to 1960. 3 Q. Would you say it's throughout 4 that period? 5 A. No. I think I will say that I can't 6 give you dates of the thousands of people 7 that I contacted and talked to during those 8 periods, or who came to Monsanto seeking 9 information. 1 0 Q. But -- okay. 11 A. But it was at - - all I can de f i n e for 1 2 you is that it wa s during the days that I 1 3 worked on fluids. And I started d o i n g fluids 1 4 in 1946 , and was still working on them when I 1 5 went to development in 1 9 6 0. 1 6 Q. Okay. What were the nature of 1 7 these contacts with Mr. Fletcher? Do you 1 8 remember any topics that you discussed? 1 9 A. General discussions. 2 0 Q. General discussions regarding 2 1 what? 22 A. Whatever subject he wanted to talk 2 3 about Whatever subject I wanted to talk 2 4 about 2 5 Q. Do you remember any specific waga and spinelli certified shorthand reporters 405 Northfield Avenue West Orange, N, J. 07052 201-731-9666 WATER PCB-SD0000061971 R . E. Hatton 1 99 1 discussions? 2 A. Primarily fire resistance and turbine 3 lubricants. 4 Q. Proceeding on to Mr. Walter 5 Woods of Texas Eastern. You testified 6 yesterday that it was your belief that he was 7 in the engineering department of Texas 8 Eastern; is that correct? 9 A. At some -- 10 MR. HART: Objection to the - 1 1 characterization. 1 2 MR. DAVIDSON: You can answer. 1 3 A. As far as I know that was his 1 4 position. I don't know -- I don't remember 1 5 his exact title. 1 6 Q Do you remember the time peri 1 7 of your contacts with Mr. Woods? 1 8 Let me rephrase the question . 1 9 Was it during the period of time that you 2 0 were employed a s a research chem i s t ? 21 A. I b e 1 i eve they started then, during 2 2 the late period. 2 3 Q. And did those contacts continue 2 4 into the time period when you were developed 2 5 -- or when you were employed in the waga and spinelli certified shorthand reporters 405 Northfield Avenue West Orange, N. J. 07052 201-731-9666 WATER PCB-SD0000061972 R . E . Hatton 2a0 1 development department? 2 A. Yes. You'll notice in some of the 3 exhibits which were put in the record 4 yesterday that Walter Woods is on the ones 5 which have to do with the removal of PCBs 6 from the market. He attended those meetings, 7 so obviously I was still seeing him at that 8 point. 9 Q . So your contacts with Mr. Woods 1 0 continued throughout the period that you were 1 1 employed in the marketing department of 1 2 Monsanto. 1 3 MR. HART: Objection. 1 4 Q. That was the period from 1968 to 1 5 1962, as you testified yesterday. 1 6 MR. HART: Same objection. 1 7 MR. DAVIDSON: No, I think he's 1 8 also testified that he was not working on 1 9 fire-resistant turbine fluids the whole 2 0 time. And that he went on other projects, 2 1 went on again, off again. 2 2 I object to your characterizing 2 3 it as during that whole time period. 2 4 A. I think if you go back and look at the 2 5 records, at the time I spelled out pretty waga and spinelli certified shorthand reporters 405 Northfield Avenue West Orange, N. J. 07052 201-731-9666 WATER PCB-SD0000061973 R . E. Hatton 201 1 well what I was doing when. 2 And any time that I was dealing 3 with Texas Eastern, I obviously at some time 4 during the visit saw Walter Woods. 5 Q. Specifically, though, I'm 6 interested in whether you had any contacts 7 with Mr. Woods duringthe period that you 8 were employed in the marketing department of 9 Monsanto, which you testified yesterday was 1 0 between 1968 and 1982. - 1 1 A. And I will refer you to Exhibit -- 1 2 MR. DAVIDSON: Answer him yes or 13 no . 1 4 MR. HART: Yes. I object, it's 1 5 asked and answered. 16 17 A . Q To the be st of your knowledge, Th e answer is y es. Exhibits five and 1 8 six. 1 9 Q. Exhibit number 5 is dated 2 0 February 8th, 1972, and Exhibit number 6 is 2 1 dated February 11th, 1972. 2 2 Do you remember any contacts 2 3 with Mr. Woods subsequent to these exhibits? 2 4 MR. HART: Subsequent to the 2 5 date of the exhibits? waga and spinelli certified shorthand reporters 405 Northfield Avenue West Orange, N. J. 07052 201-731-9666 WATER PCB-SD0000061974 R. E. Hatton 202 1 MR. PIERDINOCK : Exactly. 2 A. Exhibit number 9 records a visit in 3 July of '72. 4 Q. Do you remember any contacts 5 with Mr. Woods subsequent to July of 1972? 6 A. Exhibit 10 also refers to the same 7 visit. And no, I do not. 8 (A discussion takes place off 9 the record between the witness and his 1 0 attorney . j 1 1 Q What was the nature of your 1 2 contact with Mr. Woods ? Do you remember any 1 3 of the speci fic topics that you discussed? 1 4 MR. HART: Objection, compound. 1 5 Q. Okay. Let me ask first, what 1 6 was the nature of your discussions with Mr. 1 7 Woods? 18 MR. HART: Objection. 19 MR. DAVIDSON: If you remember. 2 0 A. Yesterday we spent a considerable 2 1 period of time going over the exhibits that I 2 2 referred you to. I believe that the subjects 2 3 of the visit were adequately covered in those 2 4 Call Reports. 2 5 Any other visits that were made waga and spinelli certified shorthand reporters 405 Northfield Avenue West Orange, INI. J. 07052 201-731-9666 WATER PCB-SD0000061975 R. E. Hatton 203 1 would have been covered in much the same 2 way. And I do not remember the details 3 beyond that, without seeing Call Reports. 4 Q. Finally, Mr. Buck Jarnagin -- 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. -- that you referred to 7 yesterday. You testified -- to your 8 knowledge, he wasanother one of your 9 contacts in the engineering department at 1 0 Texas Eastern; is that correct? - 11 MR. HART: I'll object to the 1 2 form. 1 3 A. 14 Yes. Q. Do you remember the time period 1 5 of your contacts with him? 1 6 A. I do not remember a beginning and an 1 7 end, no. 1 8 Q. Do you remember having any 1 9 contacts with Mr.Jarnagin during your period 2 0 of employment at Monsanto as a research 2 1 chemist? 22 A . 23 No. Q. Do you remember any contacts 2 4 with Mr. Jarnagin during your employment at 2 5 Monsanto in the development department? waga and spinelli certified shorthand reporters 405 Northfield Avenue West Orange, N. J. 07052 201-731-9666 WATER PCB-SD0000061976 R, E. Hatton 204 1 Which youtestified yesterday to 2 be -- 3 A. Not specific visits, unless there is a 4 piece of paper here that details them. 5 Q. Similarly, do you remember any 6 contacts with Mr. Jarnagin during the period 7 that you were employed with Monsanto in the 8 marketing department? 9 MR. HART: Objection,asked and 1 0 answered. - 1 1 A. It's been answered -- the contacts 1 2 with Mr. Jarnagin were very much parallel to 1 3 those with Mr. Woods. 1 4 Q. Yesterday you testified that the 1 5 labels on the drums of certain products 1 6 supplied by Monsanto, namely OS-81, contained 1 7 a statement that these products contained 1 8 chlorinated compounds. 19 MR. HART: Objection toform -- 2 0 Q. Is that correct? 2 1 MR. HART: Objection. 2 2 A. There is a standard statement that was 2 3 put on fluids that contain chlorinated 2 4 compounds at that time, and that would have 2 5 been included on these drums. waga and spinelli certified shorthand reporters 405 Northfield Avenue West Orange, N. J. 07052 201-731-9666 WATER PCB-SD0000061977 R. E. Hatton 205 1 Q. Would that label, or that 2 statement also be included on the labels for 3 the product MCS-153? 4 MR. HART: Objection. 5 A. Certainly. 6 Q. Was this statement on this label 7 included on these products from the date of 8 the first delivery of these products, to the 9 best of your knowledge? 1 0 MR. HART: I'll object to the . 1 1 form. 1 2 MR. DAVIDSON: I object to even 1 3 asking. He didn't work in the shipping 1 4 department. He doesn't know how they went 1 5 out. He's told you his belief of the labels 1 6 as they were printed and put on all 1 7 substances that contained chlorinated 1 8 materials, that all substances containing 1 9 chlorinated materials had that statement. 2 0 Q. Were you aware that these drums 2 1 had labels on them with the statement 2 2 chlorinated compound when you were employed 2 3 at Monsanto as a research chemist? 'i"L\ Ai MR. HART: I'll object to the 2 5 form. waga and spinelli certified shorthand reporters 405 Northfield Avenue West Orange, N. J. 07052 201-731-9666 WATER PCB-SD0000061978 R. E. Hatton 206 1 MR. DAVIDSON: What are you 2 referring -- what products are you referring 3 to? 4 MR. PIERDINOCK: I'm referring 5 right now to the product OS-81. 6 MR. HART: I am going to get to 7 the point where I start spelling out my 8 objections, soon. 9 I know it makes Counsel for the 1 0 carriers unhappy when I make talking - 1 1 objections, but I think you've had a long 1 2 series of questions that are highly 1 3 objectionable in form because they are 1 4 ambiguous, because they are leading, because 1 5 they assume foundations that haven't been 1 6 demonstrated in the record. And I'm giving 1 7 fair warning. 1 8 In this instance. Counsel, I 1 9 don't think it's at all clear what drums 2 0 you're talking about, and there is no 2 1 foundation for whether, or when such drums 2 2 began to be shipped, when i;he witness knew 2 3 they began to be shipped, or where they were 2 4 shipped to. 2 5 MR. HOOK: Could we proceed? waga and spinelli certified shorthand reporters 405 Northfield Avenue West Orange, N. J. 07052 201-731-9666 WATER PCB-SD0000061979 R . E. Hatton 207 1 Q Labels o n the drums containing 2 the product OS - 8 1 , are you aware of a date 3 when those labels began t o use the phrase 4 chlorinated compounds? 5 A. No. 6 Q To the b e s t o f your knowledge, 7 they contai n e d that lab e 1 since they were 8 delivered -- since the y w ere f i rst delivered 9 at Texas Eastern. 1 0 MR. HART: Objection to form. 11 A. I generally -- or I should say I 1 2 never saw production drums being shipped. 1 3 if I did. it was by more or less accident 1 4 not a s a part of my responsibilities. 1 5 The production department was 1 6 responsible for this, and would have taken 1 7 their orders from somebody besides me. 1 8 Q. Are you aware of a policy at 1 9 Texas Eastern for those drums to contain such 2 0 a statement? 2 1 MR. DAVIDSON: A policy at Texas 2 2 Eastern? 2 3 MR. HART: Objection. 2 4 MR. PIERDINOCK: I'm sorry -- 25 A . No . waga and spinelli certified shorthand reporters 405 Northfield Avenue West Orange, N. J. 07052 201-731-9666 WATER PCB-SD0000061980 R. E. Hatton 1 MR. PIERDINOCK I meant 208 2 Monsanto. 3 A. No. I am not aware of that. 4 MR. DAVIDSON: Off the record. 5 (A discussion takes place off 6 the record. 7 MR. PIERDINOCK Never mind 8 strike that 9 I'd like to introduce Exhibit 10 17 1 1 (Document entitled, "MCS-153 1 2 Transfer to Marketing and Recommended Product 1 3 Strategy" O.D. No 1400, by R.E. Hatton, dated 1 4 June 29, 1964, Bates Nos. TEX 000241 through 1 5 000285 is marked Hatton-17 for 1 6 identification.) 1 7 MR. PIERDINOCK: For the record 1 8 Hatton Exhibit number 17 appears to be a 1 9 Monsanto report. 2 0 Mr. Hatton's name is on the 2 1 cover page of this report. 2 2 It bears Texas Eastern document 2 3 numbers 000241 through 000285. 2 4 Mr. Hatton, have you seen this 2 5 document before? waga and spinelli certified shorthand reporters 405 Northfield Avenue West Orange, N. J. 07052 201-731-9666 WATER PCB-SD0000061981 R . E . Hatton 209 1 A. Yes. 2 Q . D i d you write this document? 3 A. Yes, si r . 4 Q I ' d like to direct your 5 attention to page number seven, item b, under 6 pricing, the very last sentence. 7 MR. PIERDINOCK: The page number 8 is on the bottom. 9 MR. DAVIDSON: All right. 1 0 Q . This sentence reads, "Since it - 1 1 is high in Aroclor content," I can't read the 1 2 next word, but I believe it says a label 1 3 should show the usual precautionary 1 4 statements . 1 5 MR. HART: I object to 1 6 characterization of a document which is 1 7 difficult to read, and which I think you've 1 8 misread. 1 9 Is there a question pending? 2 0 MR. PIERDINOCK: Yes, there is. 2 1 Q. Does this refresh your memory as 2 2 to a policy of Monsanto regarding the 2 3 labeling of these products? 2 4 MR. HART: Objection to form. 2 5 MR. DAVIDSON: I want to clarify waga and spinelli certified shorthand reporters 405 Northfield Avenue West Orange, N. J. 07052 201-731-9666 WATER PCB-SD0000061982 I R. E. Hatton 2 10 1 something, David. I think we've gotten mixed 2 up . 3 I think you asked aquestion 4 awhile ago. He answered the question that 5 you first asked, which you had jumped it with 6 the question about the policy of Monsanto. 7 And I don't think that was clear. 8 I think you took his answer as 9 ananswer to your second question, not your 1 0 first question. If you want to have that - 1 1 read back or not, that's fine. 1 2 The truth of the matter is that 1 3 since the early or the late thirties Monsanto 1 4 had had a policy of labeling chlorinated 1 5 products, including those containing 1 6 chlorinated biphenyls, labeling all their 1 7 products. 1 8 So thi s is a c o r r e c t statement 1 9 of company policy. But I think your question 2 0 got garbled between two question s; what he 2 1 was answering, and what you were asking 2 2 awhile ago. 2 3 that. If you want to try to clarify 2 4 Q. Is it your understanding, 2 5 Mr. Hatton, that it was Monsanto's policy to waga and spinelli certified shorthand reporters 405 Northfieid Avenue West Orange, N. J, 07052 201-731-9666 WATER PCB-SD0000061983 R. E. Hatton 2 11 1 so label these products since the late 2 thirties? 3 MR. HART: Objection to form. 4 A. Yes. 5 MR. DAVIDSON: You're referring 6 to products containing chlorinated materials. 7 MR. HART: It's not clear what 8 he was referring to, that's why I objected to 9 the question. 1 0 Q. Were you referring to products - 1 1 containing chlorinated materials -- 1 2 MR. HART: Objection. 1 3 Q. -- in your previous statement, 1 4 Mr. Hatton? 1 5 A. I was specifically relating to 1 6 products containing Aroclors. 1 7 Q. I would like to refer your 1 8 attention now to page 8 of the same document. 1 9 Section E, which refers to appendix Roman 2 0 Numeral VI, which is at the very end of this 2 1 document. 2 2 Could you please read both of 2 3 those sections for me now. 2 4 A. (The witness reads the document.) 2 5 Q. Have you read those statements? waga and spinelli certified shorthand reporters 405 Northfield Avenue West Orange, N. J. 07052 201-731-9666 WATER PCB-SD0000061984 R. E. Hatton 2 12 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. Section E refers t o the toxicity 3 statement for OS-81, w hic h is a 1 so used. 4 quote, unquote, in our h a n d 1 i ng of MCS-153. 5 My questi on is. how did this 6 statement get to the u 11 i m a t e u s e r of the 7 product? 8 MR . DAVID SON: I ' m going to 9 object. No, I'll let him, if h e knows, 1 0 answer that. 1 1 MR. HART: Well, I will object. 1 2 Q. Ifyoukn o w . 1 3 A. A transfer to m arketing report, which 1 4 is what this document is, is an accumulation 1 5 of inputs from all departments of the company 1 6 that relate to that product. 1 7 One of the very necessary things 1 8 to do in getting products out is to -- was 1 9 to get the permission of the medical 2 0 department, as well as a statement from them 2 1 that could be given to customers. 2 2 What you see in this document is 2 3 what the medical department released to me 2 4 for MCS-153, later trademarked Turbinol 153. 2 5 MR. DAVIDSON: David, one waga and spinelli certified shorthand reporters 405 Northfield Avenue West Orange, N. J. 07052 201-731-9666 WATER PCB-SD0000061985 R. E. Hatton 2 13 1 second. 2 MR. PIERDINOCK : Yes. 3 (A discussion takes place off 4 the record between the witness and his 5 attorney . ) 6 Q . So, was i t you r t e s t i m o n y that 7 such a statement would have to b e sen t to the 8 ultimat e user of this p r o d u c t be f o r e the 9 product was shipped to that user? 1 0 MR. DAVIDSON: No, he didn't sa.y 1 1 that at all. 1 2 A. I did not say that. The statement 1 3 that was made here would then have been put 1 4 into a technical bulletin, and the technical 1 5 bulletin would have then become public 1 6 knowledge, and would have been distributed to 1 7 customers, prospects, competitors. Anybody 1 8 who wanted a copy could get a copy. 1 9 It was our salesmen's 2 0 responsibility to see that such bulletins got 2 1 to our customers. 2 2 Q. Would such a statement be 2 3 contained in a bulletin before initial 2 4 shipment of a new product to an ultimate 2 5 user, to the best of your knowledge? waga and spinelli certified shorthand reporters 405 Northfield Avenue West Orange, N. J. 07052 201-731-9666 WATER PCB-SD0000061986 R . E . Hatton 214 1 MR. HART: Objection. 2 A. Normally. 3 Q. Do you have knowledge of the 4 care that is required in the handling of the 5 product Pydraul AC? 6 MR. HART: Can I have that read 7 back? 8 (The pending question is read 9 back by the reporter.) 1 0 MR. HART: I object. You want 1 1 to rephrase that? 1 2 MR. DAVIDSON: Okay. I'm going 1 3 to object that Dr. Hatton's knowledge and 1 4 expertise is not carried to existing 1 5 products. And I've let him answer these 1 6 questions indicating that he obtained that 1 7 information from other people in the 1 8 company. 1 9 He's not designated, as a 2 0 30(b)(6), as knowledgeable in that area. So 2 1 he won't be competent as to what the toxicity 2 2 is, other than what you have, which is 2 3 company policy. 2 4 MR. PIERDINOCK: Well, it's my 2 5 understanding that the toxicity of these waga and spinelli certified shorthand reporters 405 Northfield Avenue West Orange, N. J. 07052 201-731-9666 WATER PCB-SD0000061987 R . E . Hatton 2 15 1 products is an integral product development 2 of them, and is a major concern of the 3 development, 4 MR. DAVIDSON: To the extent you 5 want to know how he got information on 6 toxicity, I have let him and will let him 7 answer those questions. But not as to what 8 the nature of the toxicity is, or how it's 9 arrived at, or who forms that opinion. 10 He's not an expert in that ' 1 1 area. He doesn't know that area, he's not 1 2 designated for that area. 1 3 Now, that's one of the things 14 that you all were told was the area that he 1 5 would not be able to cover, and indicated 1 6 you'll take your shot at that later, with 1 7 somebody else if need be. 1 8 Q Mr. Hatton, were you ever told 1 9 of any of the care required in handling the 2 0 product Pydraul AC? 2 1 MR. HART: Objection. 2 2 MR. DAVIDSON: Any of the what? 2 3 MR. PIERDINOCK: Excuse me? 2 4 MR. DAVIDSON: I'm sorry. 25 THE WITNESS: Care and waga and spinelli certified shorthand reporters 405 Northfield Avenue West Orange, N. J. 07052 201-731-9666 WATER PCB-SD0000061988 R . E. Hatton 2 16 1 handling. 2 M R . HART : Care was the word. 3 M R . PIERDINOCK : Care. 4 M R . DAVIDSON : Okay,. I d i d n ' t 5 hear the word. 6 A. The medical department provided the 7 statements, which I read and understood. 8 Q . Are you aware when the medical 9 department supplied that information to you? 1 0 A. No, I'm not. ' 1 1 Q. Was it during your employment as 1 2 a research chemist at Texas Eastern? 1 3 A. Certainly. 1 4 MR. PIERDINOCK: I want to mark 1 5 this as the next Exhibit. 1 6 Off the record. 1 7 (A discussion takes place off 1 8 the record.) 1 9 MR. PIERDINOCK: I thought I had 2 0 copies of a document that Ididn't have, so 2 1 I'll proceed in my questioning to the next 2 2 one. 2 3 Q. I'd like to ask you now 2 4 regarding the product OS-81, were you ever 2 5 told by the medical department of care to be waga and spinelli certified shorthand reporters 405 Northfield Avenue West Orange, N. J. 07052 201-731-9666 WATER PCB-SD0000061989 R. E. Hatton 2 17 1 required in the handling of that product? 2 MR. HART: Objection. 3 (A discussion takes place off 4 the record between the witness and his 5 attorney. ) 6 MR. DAVIDSON: Would you repeat 7 the question? 8 MR. PIERDINOCK: Could we have 9 the question read back, please. 1 0 (The pending question is read - 1 1 back by the reporter.) 1 2 MR. HART: Restate my 1 3 objection. 1 4 A. Exhibit 17, pages 264 through 269 is 1 5 the product bulletin on OS-81 and contains, 1 6 on the last page, a toxicity and safe 1 7 handling information. 1 8 This bulletin bears the initials 1 9 of J.B.D., who is Jim Davis. But as the 2 0 development man on the project, he would have 2 1 discussed this with me, and I -- he would 2 2 have obtained this information from the 2 3 medical department in the manner in which I 2 4 described -- 2 5 Q. Can you please refer me to the waga and spinelli certified shorthand reporters 405 Northfield Avenue West Orange, N. J. 07052 201-731-9666 WATER PCB-SD0000061990 R , E . Hatton 2 18 1 page that you just mentioned? I've just 2 gotten the document. 3 MR. DAVIDSON: TEX 000269. 4 Q. This document is dated June 5 29th, 1964. 6 MR. DAVIDSON: He's talking 7 about the whole document. 8 Q. The overall report is. 9 M R . HART : Is t h ere a question? 10 M R . PIERDINOCK : Yes. - 1 1 Q , Are you aware o f any -- do you 1 2 remember any communications w ith the medical 1 3 department of Monsanto previous to this date? 1 4 MR. DAVIDSON: He's just 1 5 testified that the OS-81 bulletin that he's 1 6 referring to is dated in 1958 on the page 1 7 that he cited. 1 8 Q. Do you remember any contacts 1 9 with the medical department regarding the 2 0 information contained in this bulletin before 21 1958? 2 2 A. I do not remember specific contacts. 2 3 Q. Returning back to my line of 2 4 questioning regarding Pydraul AC and your 2 5 communications with the medical department of waga and spinelli certified shorthand reporters 405 Northfield Avenue West Orange, N. J, 07052 201-731-9666 WATER PCB-SD0000061991 R. E. Hatton - PROTECTED 219 1 Monsanto regarding the care of that product 2 -- I'm going to have to return to that 3 later, because I think the copies are out 4 being copied. 5 Referring you now to yesterday's 6 Exhibit number 3, a Texas Eastern document 7 from -- 8 MR. GREGG: Miss Reporter, may I 9 indicate that this portion should be 1 0 designated as protected material? - 1 1 Q. Texas Eastern document from 1 2 Mr. Stephens to Mr. Moore, and it refers to, 1 3 in the second paragraph from the bottom, it 1 4 refers to chlorinated polyphenyls. 15 MR. HART: Bottom of what page? 1 6 MR. PIERDINOCK: Bottom of the 1 7 first page. 1 8 MR. HART: All right. 1 9 Q. Second paragraph from the 2 0 bottom, third line down. 2 1 Do you have any idea how Mr. 2 2 Moore became aware that this product, which 2 3 is MCS-153, contained chlorinated 2 4 poiyphenyls? 2 5 MR. HART: I'll object to the waga and spinelli certified shorthand reporters 405 Northfield Avenue West Orange, N. J. 07052 201-731-9666 WATER PCB-SD0000061992 R. E. Hatton - PROTECTED 220 1 form. 2 A. No. 3 Q. Oh, okay. Are you aware of how 4 Mr. Stephens became aware that MCS-153 5 contained chlorinated polyphenyls? 6 MR. HART: Objection to form. 7 A. No. 8 Q. Do you remember having any 9 contacts with Mr. Stephens? 10 MR. HART: Can I have that - 1 1 question read back? 1 2 (The pending question is read 1 3 back by the reporter.) 1 4 A. Ibelieve heattended some of the 1 5 meetings we discussed previously. 1 6 Q. By meetings, what meetings are 1 7 you referring to? 1 8 A. The ones covered by the exhibits of 1 9 yesterday. 2 0 Q. Can you refer me to the exhibits 2 1 that you mentioned? Do you mean Exhibit 2 2 number 5? 2 3 M R . HART: I object to the form 24 A. H e is not listed on those d o c u m e n t s . 2 5 Q I ' m interested in the type o f waga and spinelli certified shorthand reporters 405 Northfield Avenue West Orange, N. J. 07052 201-731-9666 WATER PCB-SD0000061993 R . E . Hatton - PROTECTED 221 1 meetings -- 2 A. My a n s w e r is no. 3 4 A. Q -- that you ' r e referring t o Genera 1 meetings o f Texas East e r n . 5 Q . These meeti n g s were with T e x a 6 E a s t e rn s p e c i fically? 7 MR . HART : 0 b j e c t i o n . 8 A. If he worked for Tex as Eastern , I 9 would assume that would b e where I me t him 1 0 Q You just re f e r red to mee tings 1 1 where you might have had a contact with 1 2 Mr. Stephens. I'm looking for the specific 1 3 nature of those meetings. 1 4 MR. HART: Is there a question? 1 5 Q. What was the nature of those 1 6 meetings? 1 7 MR. DAVIDSON: Do you 1 8 specifically recall meeting Mr. Stephens? 19 A. I have already stat e d that I did not 2 0 recall a spec ific meeting. 2 1 Q But the meeti ng that you just 2 2 referred t o , what meetings were you referring 2 3 to? 24 The ones covered by th i: x v 2 5 what, five and six? waga and spinelli certified shorthand reporters 405 Northfield Avenue West Orange, N. J. 07052 201-731-9666 WATER PCB-SD0000061994 R. E. Hatton - PROTECTED 222 1 I think there is more than that, 2 that we went over yesterday. Similar 3 meetings in Exhibit ten, nine, eight. 4 Q. Okay. 5 MR. HART: I'd like the record 6 to show that as far as I can tell, Mr. 7 Stephens' nam e does not a p p e ar on the list of 8 attendees on any of t h o s e do c u m e n t s . 9 Q. Mr. Hatton, do you remember 1 0 attending similar meetings t o the ones that - 1 1 are referred to in the docum ents that you've 1 2 just mentioned? 1 3 A. Yes. 1 4 Q. Thank you. 1 5 Returning now to Exhibit number 1 6 3, specifically the phrase that I mentioned 1 7 earlier, chlorinated polyphenyls. Do you 1 8 remember communicating to anyone at Texas 1 9 Eastern that the product MCS-153 contained 2 0 chlorinated polyphenyls at any time? 2 1 MR. DAVIDSON: I know that 2 2 question has been asked and answered 2 3 yesterday by Gregory Krauss. 2 4 MR. PIERDINOCK; I'd like to ask 2 5 again . waga and spinelli certified shorthand reporters 405 Northfield Avenue West Orange, N, J. 07052 201-731-9666 WATER PCB-SD0000061995 R. E. Hatton - PROTECTED 223 1 MR. DAVIDSON: Well, that's 2 repetitive, and the Order says you shouldn't 3 be repetitive. 4 MR. HART: Texas Eastern agrees 5 with that objection. 6 MR. PIERDINOCK: Yesterday I 7 believe h e gave a time period for his -- 8 for t h o s e coiniuni cations, and I was looking 9 for -- 1 0 M R . HART: You said at any time- 1 1 M R . PIERDINOCK: I said at any 1 2 time. 1 3 M R . HART: Well then -- 1 4 M R . PIERDINOCK : Yesterday it 1 5 was narrowed down to comiuni cations within a 1 6 specific time period, if I recall correctly. 1 7 M R . DAVIDSON : I think the 1 8 question has been asked and answered, and is 1 9 overbroad at this point . 2 0 M R . PIERDINOCK : In my notes 2 1 from yesterday I don't have him referring to 2 2 communicating -- 2 3 MR. HART: Counsel, would you 2 4 like to go off the record? 2 5 M R . PIERDINOCK: No. In my waga and spinelli certified shorthand reporters 405 Northfield Avenue West Orange, N. J. 07052 201-731-9666 WATER PCB-SD0000061996 R. E.Hatton - PROTECTED 224 1 notes from yesterday I have that he -- I 2 have no record of him referring to 3 communicating -- his communications 4 regarding chlorinated polyphenyls to other 5 personsbesides the ones mentioned in this 6 memo. 7 I'm looking for his 8 communications to people besides Mr. Stephens 9 or Mr. Moore regarding the content of 1 0 MC S- 15 3 . 1 1 A. I do not remember the specific 1 2 meetings at which this w as discussed, 1 3 I think I t estified yesterday 1 4 that Earl Farmer in his paper spelled out the 1 5 compositions. So it was obvious by 1970 they 1 6 had been made aware of i t. But I donot know 1 7 how. 1 8 Exhibit 3 shows that they knew 1 9 in 1968. 2 0 MR. HART: I'm going to move to 2 1 strike the previous statement as not in 2 2 response to any pending question. 2 3 I do appreciate, however, the 2 4 witness' desire to move the deposition 2 5 along. waga and spinelli certified shorthand reporters 405 Northfield Avenue West Orange, N. J. 07052 201-731-9666 WATER PCB-SD0000061997 R. E. Hatton - PROTECTED 225 1 Q. Regarding the product iroclor, 2 am I pronouncing that correctly? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q . Do you remember communications 5 with Texas Eastern regarding the content of 6 Aroclor? 7 A. No. 8 Q . I'd like t o refer you now t o 9 exhibits number 11 and 12 from yesterday. 1 0 Is it your understanding that 1 1 they are -- that these exhibits refer to a 1 2 meeting of a study group on fire-resistant 1 3 turbine fluids. Tech C? 1 4 MR. HART: Objection, asked and 1 5 answered. 16 A . Specifically, Exhibit 12 relates t o 1 7 that meeting. There is no date on E x h i bit 1 8 11, therefore I do not know what time frame 1 9 this membership list was put together. 2 0 Q. The date of Exhibit 12 is June 2 1 25th, 1963. 2 2 Do you remember any previous -- 2 3 do you remember attending any previous 2 4 meetings? Any similar meetings of the same 2 5 study group? waga and spinelli certified shorthand reporters 405 Northfield Avenue West Orange, N. J. 07052 201-731-9666 WATER PCB-SD0000061998 R. E. Hatton - PROTECTED 226 1 MR. HART: Asked and answered. 2 MR. PIERDINOCK: It has not been 3 asked before. 4 A. I was an active member of the study 5 group, and I attended their meetings. 6 Q. Specifically, though, do you 7 remember attending meetings before this one? 8 Yesorno? 9 A. No. 1 0 Q. Were you a member of this 1 1 subcommittee from its inception? 1 2 MR. HART: Objection. 13 A. Yes. 1 4 Q. Do you remember the date of its 1 5 inception? 16 A. I d o not. 1 7 Q Do you remember whether the 1 8 incept ion o f this subcommittee was during the 1 9 period o f Y o ur employment as a research 2 0 chemi s t? 21 A. No. 2 2 Q . You don't remember, or -- 2 3 A. I don't remember the date that it was 2 4 formed. 2 5 Q. You read Exhibit number 1 2 waga and spinelli certified shorthand reporters 405 Northfield Avenue West Orange, N. J. 07052 201-731-9666 WATER PCB-SD0000061999 R. E. Hatton - PROTECTED 1 yesterday, am I correct? 227 2 A. Yes, most of i t . 3 Q Are y o u familiar with the 4 content of Exhibit number 12? 5 (A d i s cussion takes place off 6 the record between the witness and his 7 attorney . ) 8 A. I did not re ad the attachments i n 9 detail yesterday. 1 0 Q. All right. My question is, at 1 1 what stage of the development process does 1 2 this meeting of this subcommittee refer to in 1 3 the product -- well, in the development of 1 4 fire-resistant turbine fluids? 1 5 MR. HART: I object to the 1 6 form. 17 I don't believe the committee 1 8 was involved in the process of developing 1 9 such fluids. In any event, there is no such 2 0 foundation. 21 I also object to the implication 2 2 that there was a single development process 2 3 for all such fluids. 2 4 MR. DAVIDSON: 2 5 the question? Do you understand waga and spinelli certified shorthand reporters 405 Northfield Avenue West Orange, N. J. 07052 201-731-9666 WATER PCB-SD0000062000 R E. Hatton - PROTECTED 228 1 THE WITNESS: I'm not sure. 2A I do not know what you're -- 3 Q . Okay. 4A -- implying. 5 Q. Let me rephrase the question. 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. Do these meetings refer -- do 8 the minutes of this meeting refer to a 9 meeting which was early in the development 1 0 process of fire-resistant turbine fluids? 1 1 MR. HART: Objection to form. 1 2 Counsel, i f you 13 M R . DAVIDSON: If you have 1 4 something s p e c i fic that you wa nt to refer to 1 5 to questi o n him about, this se e m s to be 1 6 shooting i n the dark. 1 7 MR. PIERDINOCK: Well, what I'm 1 8 looking for is -- the answer -- how many 1 9 meetings, or for what time period the 2 0 meetings were before this. 2 1 MR. HART: He said two seconds 2 2 ago he does not recall any prior meetings. 2 3 MR. PIERDINOCK: Okay. That's 2 4 why I'm trying to narrow down that date. 2 5 MR. HART: I don't know how you waga and spinelli certified shorthand reporters 405 Northfield Avenue West Orange, N. J. 07052 201-731-9666 WATER PCB-SD0000062001 R. E. Hatton - PROTECTED 2 29 1 can narrow down a date that the witness 2 doesn't recall. 3 Q. Do you recall that there was at 4 least one meeting before this meeting? 5 A. The minutes of this meeting that I 6 prepared says there was one. 7 Q. To the best of your 8 recollection, do you remember if there was 9 more than one meeting before this meeting of 1 0 this same committee? 1 1 A. I can't remember. 1 2 Q. How much did this committee 1 3 meet? 1 4 MR. HART: Objection, asked and 1 5 answered 1 6 A. Once or twice a year. 1 7 Q . Do you remember any meetings 1 8 subsequent to this meeting that's referred to 1 9 in Exhibit number 12? 20 A. No specific meetings. 2 1 Q Do you recall that there were 2 2 any meetings after this meeting referred to 2 3 in Exhibit 12? 2 4 A. To the best of my knowledge the 2 5 committee is active to this day. waga and spinelli certified shorthand reporters 405 Northfield Avenue West Orange, N. J. 07052 201-731-9666 WATER PCB-SD0000062002 R. E. Hatton - PROTECTED 230 1 Q. Do you remember whether 2 Mr. Fletcher was present at any meetings 3 previous to the one mentioned in Exhibit 4 number 12? 5 MR. HART: I object to the 6 form. If he doesn't remember previous 7 meetings, he can hardly be expected to 8 remember Mr.Fletcher's presence at any of 9 those meetings -- 1 0 MR. GREGG: Mr. Hart, I think a-n 1 1 objection to form is appropriate. Otherwise 1 2 I think Counsel for Dr. Hatton isquite ready 1 3 and able to make the objections which you 1 4 havejust broached. 1 5 Q. Let me rephrase the question. 16 MR. HART: I appreciate the 1 7 point. I need to respond on the record. 1 8 Obviously I'm here to represent 1 9 TexasEastern, and protect itsrights. 2 0 That's what I'm doing. I am not by any means 2 1 doubting the ability of Dr. Hatton's 2 2 Counsel. 2 3 Q Do you remember the question. 2 4 ur. Hatton? 2 5 A. Well, it had something to do with the waga and spinelli certified shorthand reporters 405 Northfield Avenue West Orange, N. J. 07052 201-731-9666 WATER PCB-SD0000062003 R. E.Hatton - PROTECTED 231 1 attendance of Mr. Fletcher at meetings. 2 Q. At meetings previous -- 3 A. I previously stated that I cannot 4 remember the specific meetings. 5 The membership list provided 6 says Mr. Fletcher was a member of the group. 7 If the group met, he may or may not have 8 attended. 9 Q. I'd like to refer you now to 1 0 yesterday's Exhibit number 13. - 1 1 Your testimony yesterday was 1 2 that you did not recall giving the 1 3 information contained in this Exhibit, and 1 4 that other people were responsible for 1 5 contacts with Texas Eastern during the 1 6 changeover period. 1 7 MR. HART: Objection to form. I 1 8 mean, I object to the characterization. 1 9 Q. Is that a valid representation 2 0 of your testimony yesterday? 21 A. Yes. 2 2 Q When you referred to other 2 3 people. who were those other people? 2 4 M R . DAVIDSON: Hang on just a 2 5 minute . Let me - - I'm going to object to waga and spinelli certified shorthand reporters 405 Northfield Avenue West Orange, IM. J. 07052 201-731-9666 WATER PCB-SD0000062004 R. E. Hatton - PROTECTED 232 1 your characterization of the testimony, 2 because you said during the changeover period 3 that -- I don't think is correct. 4 And what he was saying was that 5 in 1981 when this document is dated, someone 6 else was responsible for communications, and 7 he had no recollection of this. 8 Q. During -- 9 MR. DAVIDSON: That's not the 1 0 changeover period. - 1 1 MR. PIERDINOCK: Okay. 1 2 A. No. May I ask what the question is? 1 3 Q . I'm formulating it. 1 4 During the period around January 1 5 23rd, 1981, do you know the people who were 1 6 responsible for contacts between Monsanto and 1 7 Texas Eastern? 18 A. No . 1 9 Q. During the period that you 2 0 described yesterday as the changeover period, 2 1 are you aware of the identity of people who 2 2 were responsible for contacts between 2 3 Monsanto and Texas Eastern? 2 4 MR. HART: Objection to form. 2 5 I'm not sure he used that phrase. waga and spinelli certified shorthand reporters 405 Northfield Avenue West Orange, N. J. 07052 201-731-9666 WATER PCB-SD0000062005 R . E . Hatton - PROTECTED 233 1 A. What date are you talking about? 2 Q The period of the changeover at 3 Texas Eastern from PCB containing lubricants 4 to non-PCB containing lubricants. Your 5 awareness of that time period. 6 M R . HART : Is there a question? 7 M R . PIERDINOCK : Yes. 8 Q Would you like me to rephrase 9 the question? 1 0 A. I would like to have a specific - 1 1 question. I would like to know exactly what 1 2 your question relates to. 1 3 Q. During your understanding of the 1 4 changeover period, and by the changeover 1 5 period I'm referring to the changeover of 1 6 Texas Eastern from PCB containing fluids to 1 7 non-PCB containing fluids. Do you know who 1 8 the people were who were responsible for 1 9 contacts between Monsanto and Texas Eastern? 2 0 MR. HART: Objection. 21 A. In January, 1972 I was brought back 2 2 into the program and was responsible. along 2 3 with Larry Bradford, for contacts at that 2 4 time 2 5 The major meeting we discussed waga and spinelli certified shorthand reporters 405 Northfield Avenue West Orange, N. J. 07052 201-731-9666 WATER PCB-SD0000062006 R. E. Hatton - PROTECTED 234 1 yesterday is Exhibit 5. I continued that 2 until at least mid-'72. 3 There is also -- Exhibit 10 4 d e t a i 1 s a V i s i t i n that time frame. 5 The local sales men. John 6 Fred e r i k s e n , was responsible for contacts 7 with T e x a s Eastern. Somebody in marketing 8 out of St Louis was respons i b 1 e for 9 i n t r o d u c i ng phosphate ester. 1 0 Q Were those all the people that 1 1 you r e m e m b e r ? 1 2 M R . DAVIDSON: For Monsanto 1 3 Company? 1 4 M R . PIERDINOCK : E x c u s e me? 1 5 M R . DAVIDSON: For Monsanto. 1 6 M R . PIERDINOCK : F o r Monsanto, 1 7 yes. 18 A . Don Roush was the specific one 1 9 foil owing the introduction of Turbinol 20 21 A. Q Is that all? Yes , sir. 2 2 MR. PIERDINOCK: That's all I 2 3 have right now. But I might have to come 2 4 back with a few questi ons later. 2 5 I'd like to defer to Don, unless waga and spinelli certified shorthand reporters 405 Northfield Avenue West Orange, N. J. 07052 201-731-9666 WATER PCB-SD0000062007 R. E. Hatton 235 1 you'd like to take a break. 2 MR. DAVIDSON; Let's take a 3 relief break. 4 (There is a recess.) 5 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. GREGG: 6 Q. Dr. Hatton, my name is Michael 7 Gregg. I'm with the firm of Pretzel and 8 Stouffer in Chicago, and we represent 9 Prudential Reinsurance Company in this case. 1 0 And I, too, just want to clari f-y 1 1 in my own mind a couple of things you've said 1 2 previously . 13 A. Yes. 1 4 Q . From my own understan ding, was 1 5 the ratio of c h 1 o rinated material t o 1 6 tricresyl p h o s p h a te the same in OS -81 a s in 1 7 MCS-153? 1 8 I be lieve you testifi e d t h at in 1 9 the OS-81 it was about 90 to ten. Was it a 2 0 similar ratio? 2 1 MR. HART: I'll object. 2 2 A. Approximately. 2 3 Q. When you made your visits to 2 4 Texas Eastern, was it your practice to take 2 5 handwritten notes? waga and spinelli certified shorthand reporters 405 Northfield Avenue West Orange, IN. J. 07052 201-731-9666 WATER PCB-SD0000062008 R. E. Hatton- PROTECTED 236 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. And what would you use those 3 notes for after the meetings, if anything? 4 A. They were used to prepare Call 5 Reports, and thendiscarded. 6 Q. And that was going to be my next 7 question. They were always discarded. 8 A. Uh-huh . 9 Q. So, to your knowledge, 1 0 handwritten notes of your personal visits - 1 1 would no longer exist in Monsanto? 12 A. That i s c o r r e c t . 1 3 Q D i d y o u prepare reports or Call 1 4 R e ports for e a c h o f y our vis its to Texas 1 5 E a stern ? 1 6 MR. DAVIDSON: If you remember. 1 7 You mean he, personally, prepared - 1 8 MR. GREGG: That would be my 1 9 question. He personally prepared. 2 0 A. I cannot state definitely that I 2 1 prepared reports of this. But there would 2 2 have been a Call Report issued. 2 3 And if I went in company with 2 4 someone else, such as the local salesman, and 2 5 -- that might have served as sufficient waga and spinelli certified shorthand reporters 405 Northfield Avenue West Orange, N. J. 07052 201-731-9666 WATER PCB-SD0000062009 R. E. Hatton - PROTECTED 237 1 record. 2 Q. You may not know the answer to 3 this question, but do you know who at 4 Monsanto asked Earl Farmer for permission to 5 use his 1970 paper? 6 A. No, I do not know who the specific 7 person is. 8 Q I believe you testified 9 sterday that no one from Texas Eastern ever 1 0 k e d you. per sonally, what the best - 1 1 c h n i q u e to c lean chlorinated materials from 1 2 the pipeline would be. 1 3 My question for you today is, 1 4 did you ever hear of anyone else from 1 5 Monsanto being asked that question? 1 6 A. I have no direct knowledge. 1 7 Q. Do you have any indirect 1 8 knowledge? 1 9 A. Yesterday you circulated Exhibit 13, 2 0 which indicates that somebody did. 2 1 Q. But as you sit here today, you 2 2 can't give us a name of any Monsanto employee 2 3 who that question was framed to? 24 A. No. 2 5 Q . As long as we're on Exhibit 13, waga and spinelli certified shorthand reporters 405 Northfield Avenue West Orange, N. J. 07052 201-731-9666 WATER PCB-SD0000062010 R. E. Hatton - PROTECTED 238 1 do you know anyone at Texas Eastern with the 2 first name of Earl? 3 MR. HART: Objection to form. 4 Also asked and answered. 5 MR. GREGG: I don't believe he's 6 commented on that question. 7 A. Earl Farmer is the one I know. 8 Q. Do you know anyone at Texas 9 Eastern named Tom, or at Texas Eastern -- 1 0 A. I cannot remember anyone -- - 1 1 Q. All right. 1 2 A. -- namedTom. 1 3 Q. Who from Monsanto was 1 4 responsible for the field tests of Turbinol 1 5 1122 at the Texas Eastern facilities? 1 6 A. DonRoush. 1 7 Q. Do you know whether Mr. Roush is 1 8 still employed at Monsanto? 19 A. H e is not. 20 21 A. Q . Is he deceased or alive? I have not heard from him in a number 2 2 o f years. I assume he is st ill alive. 2 3 Q. A couple of other individuals; 2 4 T.L. Gossage, is he alive to your knowledge? 2 5 A. I just don't know. waga and spinelh certified shorthand reporters 405 Northfield Avenue West Orange, N. J. 07052 201-731-9666 WATER PCB-SD0000062011 R . Hatton 239 1 Q. So further, you wouldn't know if 2 he's still at Monsanto. 3 A. No. 4 Q. What of M.T. Johnson? Is he 5 alive to your knowledge -- 6 A. Yes, I don't know. 7 Q. Similarly you wouldn't know if 8 he's employed by Monsanto any longer? 9 A. Ido k n o w that he is not e m p 1 o y e d by 1 0 Monsanto at t h i s time. - 1 1 Q Y o u commented this m o r n i ng that 1 2 Celanese and E . F ., Houghton were your m a j o r 1 3 or, perhaps pr imary or only comp e t i t o r s i n 1 4 the field of s ynthetic lubr i c a t i n g f 1 u i d S / 1 5 fire-resistant lubricating fluid s . And I 1 6 believe you a 1 s o commented that each o f those 1 7 manufacturers used or employed straight 1 8 phosphate esters. 1 9 A. That is correct. 2 0 Q. Why did Monsanto use phosphate 2 1 based esters, including chlorinated 2 2 materials, as opposed to straight phosphate 2 3 esters? 2 4 A. We believed, and I still believe that 2 5 they made better products. waga and spinelli certified shorthand reporters 405 Northfield Avenue West Orange, N. J. 07052 201-731-9666 WATER PCB-SD0000062012 R. E. Hatton 240 1 Q. In what way? 2 A. In the applications in which we used 3 them, namely fire resistance and stability. 4 Q . Okay. 5 MR. GREGG: I've got no further 6 questions. Thank you. Dr. Hatton. 7 MR. HART: I'd like the record 8 to reflect that it's twenty of eleven. 9 MR. PUPKE: It's twenty of 1 0 twelve New York time. - 1 1 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. PUPKE: 1 2 Q. Good morning, Mr. Hatton. 1 3 MR. PUPKE: Off the record. 1 4 (A discussion takes place off 1 5 the record.) 1 6 Q. Good morning Mr. Hatton. 1 7 A. Good morning. 1 8 Q. I introduced myself to you 1 9 yesterday. I'll do it one more time. 2 0 My name is Don Pupke, and I'm an 2 1 attorney with Rivkin, Radler, Dunne and 22 Bayh . 2 3 We represent Associated Electric 2 4 and Gas Insurance Services and National 2 5 Surety in this action. waga and spinelli certified shorthand reporters 405 Northfield Avenue West Orange, N. J. 07052 201-731-9666 WATER PCB-SD0000062013 E . Hatton 241 1 Now , I ' m going to ask you a 2 series of q u e s t i o n s , a nd I hope that I won't 3 repeat any areas that have previously been 4 gone over. And j u d g i n g by the tenor of your 5 answers so far. i f I d o , I'm sure you'll 6 remind me. 7 But I hope that -- I do intend 8 to go on into areas that have already been 9 touched on, hopefully not repeating the 1 0 questions. But, as insurors each of us are . 1 1 on the risk at different policy periods, and 1 2 different areas of this investigation are 1 3 important to different insurors. 1 4 So, I hope you will forgive me. 1 5 MR. PUPKE : Can we go off the 1 6 record for a second. 1 7 (A discussion takes place off 1 8 the record.) 1 9 MR. PUPKE: Just subsequent, in 2 0 the off the record conversation I had asked 2 1 Counsel for both Texas Eastern and Mr. Hatton 2 2 if they would stipulate to the fact that -- 2 3 or the assumption that the documents produced 2 4 by Monsanto which are introduced as exhibits 2 5 in this deposition are, in fact, business waga and spinelli certified shorthand reporters 405 Northfield Avenue West Orange, N. J. 07052 201-731-9666 WATER PCB-SD0000062014 R . E. Hatton 242 1 records created and mainta ined in the 2 ordinary course of busines s . 3 W e have come to an agreement, 4 and I'll let Mr . Davidson speak. 5 M R ,. DAVIDSON : With respect to 6 what has been identified as Hatton Exhibit 7 number one, I am unable to state that that is 8 maintained in the files of Monsanto, although 9 it appears to be a document created by a 1 0 Monsantoemployee. - 1 1 Number 2 is a document created 1 2 by Monsanto in the ordinary course of 1 3 business, and maintained in its files. 1 4 I have no statement with respect 1 5 to Number 3. 1 6 Number 4 are several pages of 1 7 memoranda that are Monsanto business records, 1 8 created in the ordinary course of business, 1 9 and maintained in its files. 2 0 Number 5 is a Call Report 2 1 created by Monsanto, and maintained in the 2 2 ordinary course of business in its files. 2 3 The same is true for number 6. 2 4 No comment with respect to 2 5 number 7. waga and spinelli certified shorthand reporters 405 Northfield Avenue West Orange, N. J. 07052 201-731-9666 WATER PCB-SD0000062015 Hatton 243 1 Number 8 is a form Call Report 2 created by Monsanto in the ordinary course of 3 b u sines s, and maint a i n e d in i t s files. 4 The s a m e is true for number 9 . 5 The s a m e is true for number 1 0 6 e x c e p t it does not app ear on the form. I t 7 a Call Report creat e d by M o n s anto in the 8 o r dinary course of bus i n e s s , and maintai n e d 9 i n its files . 1 0 I have n o comment with resp e c t 1 1 t o number eleven, twel v e , t h i r t e e n, or 1 2 fourteen. 1 3 Hatton Exhibit number 15 appears 1 4 to be a document created by Monsanto, a 1 5 communication to Texas Eastern. This 1 6 particular document was not produced by 1 7 Monsanto, but to the best of my knowledge, it 1 8 was produced -- a copy of this document was 1 9 produced by Monsanto to the parties. 2 0 Hatton Exhibit number 16 is a 2 1 memoranda -- portions of a memorandum 2 2 created by Monsanto in the ordinary course of 2 3 business, and maintained in its files. 2 4 And number 17 is an internal 2 5 report created by Monsanto in the ordinary waga and spinelli certified shorthand reporters 405 Northfield Avenue West Orange, N. J. 07052 201-731-9666 WATER PCB-SD0000062016 R. E. Hatton - PROTECTED 244 1 course of business, and maintained in its 2 files. 3 MR. FUPKE: Now, off the 4 record. 5 (A discussion takes place off 6 the record.) 7 MR. PUPKE: Mr. Hart, don't you 8 have any disagreement with that? 9 MR. HART: Only to the extent 1 0 that it's my understanding that Mr. Davidsorv 1 1 is here representing Monsanto, as well as the 1 2 witness . Is that correct? 1 3 M R . DAVIDSON: True. 1 4 M R . HART : Okay . 1 5 Q M r . Hatton, before I get 1 6 started, I just wanted to have you look at 1 7 Hatton 15, please. 1 8 Here. You can just look at 1 9 mine 2 0 A. I have it now. 2 1 Q. Okay. Mr. Hatton, you created 2 2 this document at about the time or the date 2 3 on the above right-hand corner. December 8, 24 1975? 25 A . Yes. waga and spinelli certified shorthand reporters 405 Northfield Avenue West Orange, N. J. 07052 201-731-9666 WATER PCB-SD0000062017 R. E. Hatton 245 1 Q. Is that your signature in the 2 signature line in the lower right-hand 3 corner? 4 A. That's mysecretary'ssignature, in my 5 absence . 6 Q. Did you authorize your secretary 7 to sign that document on your behalf? 8 A. Certainly. 9 Q. Okay. That's all about that. 1 0 Mr. Hatton, for the record -- - 1 1 Dr. Hatton, would you please state your 1 2 address and date of birth for the record? 1 3 A. Current address, 406 Claybrook Lane, 1 4 Kirkwood, Missouri 63122. 15 Phone number,area code 314 - 1 6 822-0215. 1 7 Q. Had you met with your Counsel 1 8 prior to being deposed here today, or today 1 9 and yesterday? 2 0 A. Certainly. 2 1 Q. When did you meet with your 2 2 Counsel? 2 3 A. Approximately -- 2 4 Q. Was it several meetings 2 5 A. Approximately waga and spinelli certified shorthand reporters 405 Northfield Avenue West Orange, N. J. 07052 201-731-9666 WATER PCB-SD0000062018 E . Hatton 2 46 1 Q. -- was it one? 2 A. -- approximately a week ago Monday -- 3 last Monday, whatever that date may be, and 4 Tuesday afternoon. 5 Q Did you review a ny documents in 6 preparation for this depositi on? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. Do you have a recollection of 9 which documents you reviewed in preparation? 10 Were there more than ten ' 1 1 documents that you reviewed? Was it the 1 2 Monsanto production? I'm just trying to 1 3 refresh your recollection. 1 4 A. It was a collection of documents. 1 5 I -- do not remember asking the question 1 6 whether it was all the documents that were 1 7 furnished or not. But, it was from that 1 8 collection, I know. 1 9 Q. It was from the documents which 2 0 were produced by Monsanto to -- 2 1 A. Yes. 2 2 Q. -- the carriers. 2 3 A. Yes. 2 4 Q. Were there any additional 2 5 documents that had not been produced by waga and spinelli certified shorthand reporters 405 Northfield Avenue West Orange, N. J. 07052 201-731-9666 WATER PCB-SD0000062019 R. E. Hatton 247 1 Monsanto to the carrier that you reviewed 2 prior to your testimony? 3 A. No. 4 Q . Did you speak with or meet with 5 Texas Eastern's Counsel prior to your 6 deposition? 7 A, No. 8 Q. Did anyone from the law firm of 9 Covington & Burling contact you prior to your 1 0 deposition? 11 A. No. 1 2 Q. Are you finished? 1 3 MR. DAVIDSON: That is the firm 1 4 r e p r e s e n t i n g Texas Eastern. 15 16 A. Q Okay. I'm sorry. Yeah , I was a little conf used as to, I 1 7 wanted to be sure that was the r ight firm, 1 8 You people confuse me with your 1 9 names. 2 0 No, I had no contac t with Texas 2 1 Eastern - - 22 2 3 A. Q Texas Eastern -- -- in the recent past, r their 2 4 lawyers . 2 5 Q. Or their Counsel. waga and spinelli certified shorthand reporters 405 Northfield Avenue West Orange, N. J. 07052 201-731-9666 WATER PCB-SD0000062020 R. E. Hatton 248 1 Did you have any contact in the, 2 say, from November, 1985 to the present with 3 anyone from Texas Eastern? 4 A. I do not remember any specific 5 contacts. 6 Q. Do you remember any general 7 contacts with anyone from Texas Eastern? 8 A. No 9 Q - Did you ever speak with M r . 1 0 Woods i n the past five years regarding the 1 1 Texas E a s tern - - 12 A. 13 No Q - - PCB -- 14 A. No 1 5 Q Did you ever speak with anyone 1 6 from Roy F. Weston, Inc. regarding Texas 1 7 Eastern and their use of Turbinol? 1 8 A. I cannot remember anycontacts. 1 9 Q. Were you ever contacted within 2 0 the last five years by anyone from a company 2 1 named ERT Corporation? That's ERT 2 2 Corporation regarding Texas Eastern's PCB 23 usage? 2 4 A. I do not remember. 2 5 Q . Were you contacted by anyone waga and spinelli certified shorthand reporters 405 Northfield Avenue West Orange, N. J. 07052 201-731-9666 WATER PCB-SD0000062021 Hatton 249 1 from Bechtel, Inc. in the past five years 2 regarding Texas Eastern's usage of 3 Turbinol -- 4 A. No. 5 Q. You've testified that -- by the 6 way, when I characterize any of your 7 testimony, I'm not trying to state 8 definitively what you said. I'm just trying 9 touse your testimony as a way of going back 1 0 to an area that had been touched on. - 1 1 I don't mean to characterize 1 2 your testimony. Nor do I intend to state 1 3 that what I say you said is in fact word for 1 4 word what you said. I'm just trying to get 1 5 the flavor so as to remind you of what was 1 6 said generally. 1 7 You testified yesterday to the 1 8 effect that you have previously been deposed, 1 9 you said youwere not sure, approximately 15 2 0 times or so. 21 A. Uh-huh . 22 Okay. Is that fair statement 2 3 for what -- 2 4 A. I still don't have a definite number. 2 5 Q . But we can say it's -- waga and spinelli certified shorthand reporters 405 Northfield Avenue West Orange, N. J. 07052 201-731-9666 WATER PCB-SD0000062022 R. E. Hatton 250 1 A. Numerous times. 2 Q. Numerous times. Numerous, 3 meaning perhaps greater than ten times -- 4 A. Uh-huh . 5 Q. -- you've been deposed. And 6 when you say greater than ten, or numerous 7 times, do you mean -- I'm sorry. 8 When you say greater than ten, 9 do you mean a total of ten days, or ten 1 0 separate depositions, or -- - 1 1 A. I would be speaking of cases and not 1 2 time period. 1 3 Q. Now, when you have testified in 1 4 the past, was your testimony with regard to 1 5 your role, or the jobs you performed at 1 6 Monsanto? 1 7 A. Yes. 1 8 Q . Was it regarding functional 1 9 fluids at any of those previous -- did your 2 0 testimony regard the creation of functional 2 1 fluids? 2 2 A. Certainly. 2 3 Q . Do you remember if any of the 2 4 depositions you have given in the p a s t were 2 5 regarding Texas Eastern's usage of Turbinol? waga and spinelli certified shorthand reporters 405 Northfield Avenue West Orange, N. J. 07052 201-731-9666 WATER PCB-SD0000062023 R. E. Hatton 251 1 A. N o deposit ions were given o n that. 2 Q Were you - - 3 A. That area. 4 Q Were you ever asked t o make a 5 s t a t e m e n t , or g i v e a writt en statem e n t to 6 anyone regarding T e x a s E a s tern's u s age of 7 Turbin o 1 , or its p r e d e c e s s or fun c t i o n a 1 8 fluid -- 9 M R . HART : I n the 1 a s t five 1 0 years? ' 1 1 A. With what period -- in what time 1 2 period? 1 3 Q. I'll accept Counsel for Texas 1 4 Eastern's suggestion. The last five years, 1 5 say the mid-1980s forward. 16 A. No . 1 7 Q. How about prior to that period? 1 8 MR. DAVIDSON: You're talking 1 9 about any kind of statement, or affidavit. 2 0 MR. PUPKE: Legal statement of 2 1 some sort, or deposition -- 2 2 MR. HART: I'm not sure what you 2 3 mean by legal statement. 24 MR. PUPKE: Adeposition or an 2 5 affidavit. waga and spinelli certified shorthand reporters 405 Northfield Avenue West Orange, N. J. 07052 201-731-9666 WATER PCB-SD0000062024 R. E. Hatton 252 1 MR. DAVIDSON: Okay. Deposition 2 or affidavit. A sworn affidavit or 3 deposition. 4 Let me note , limited to that? 5 Q . Yes. 6 And the a n s w e r is no. 7 Q Okay. If we were to expand it 8 to testimony in Court, doesn't -- 9 A. No. 1 0 Q. Okay. Did you ever meet with 1 1 anyone from a State environmental agency to 1 2 discuss Texas Eastern's use of Turbinol or 1 3 its predecessor functional fluid? 14 A. No. 1 5 Q. Have you ever met with anyone 1 6 from the Environmental Protection Agency, or 1 7 discussed this matter with anyone from the 1 8 Environmental Protection Agency? 1 9 A. No, thank God. 2 0 Q. Have you ever given a deposition 2 1 in a matter concerning GeneralElectric 2 2 Corporation? 2 3 A. Nodepositions. 2 4 Q. Were you asked to participate in 2 5 one way or another in a General Electric waga and spinelli certified shorthand reporters 405 Northfield Avenue West Orange, N, J. 07052 201-731-9666 WATER PCB-SD0000062025 R. E. Hatton 253 1 litigation? 2 A. No . 3 Q. Were you ever contacted by 4 anyone from General Electric concerning PCB 5 contamination? 6 A. What time period? 7 MR, HART: Objection to form. 8 Q. Prior to the mid-1980s. 9 A. Yes. 1 0 Q. Canyougivemethe - 1 1 circumstances of that? 1 2 MR. DAVIDSON: I'm going to 1 3 object to therelevance of this to the 1 4 matters for which he's designated to 1 5 testify -- 1 6 MR. PUPKE: I appreciate 1 7 C o u n sel's concern. 1 8 I'm sorry, I didn't mean to step 1 9 on you. 2 0 MR. DAVIDSON: That's all right. 2 1 MR. PUPKE: I appreciate 2 2 Counsel's concern. I do ask your 2 3 indulgence. I'm just trying to get 2 4 background information as to testimony that 2 5 he has given in the past on this subject waga and spinelli certified shorthand reporters 405 Northfield Avenue West Orange, N. J. 07052 201-731-9666 WATER PCB-SD0000062026 R. E. Hatton 254 1 matter, and the litigation involved. 2 MR. DAVIDSON: He said that he 3 hadn't given any. 4 A. I will answer the question this way; 5 the year -- I spent most of the year 1975 6 dealing with replacements for Askerel, 7 A - s - k - e - r - e - 1 , which is basically a PCB 8 containing dielectric used in capacitors and 9 transformers. 10 As major producers of - 1 1 transformers, I made numerous contacts with 1 2 General Electric people in terms of that 1 3 particular application, and discussion of the 1 4 products we had. 1 5 MR. DAVIDSON: Okay. Now, as I 1 6 understand -- let me jump in here. 1 7 As I understand, what you're 1 8 inquiring about is instances of statements 1 9 under oath with respect to the subject 2 0 matter, and not business contacts or that 2 1 sort of things? 2 2 MR. PUPKE: No, his answer is 2 3 satisfactory. 2 4 MR. DAVIDSON: Okay. 2 5 MR. HART: He broadened it waga and spinelli certified shorthand reporters 405 Northfield Avenue West Orange, N. J. 07052 201-731-9666 WATER PCB-SD0000062027 R. E. Hatton 255 1 beyond 1 itigation 2 M R . DAVIDSON: All right. 3 A. I ' m sorry. 4 Q That ' s okay. I think I'm at 5 this p o i n t going t o give you some reading 6 material, and I have three documents here 7 that I'd like to introduce. 8 MR. PUPKE: The next number is 9 18; is that correct? 1 0 THE REPORTER: Yes. 1 1 MR. PUPKE: Eighteen, nineteen 1 2 and twenty. 1 3 M R . DAVIDSON : Mark them all? 1 4 M R . PUPKE Yes, may a s well. 1 5 (Doc u m e n t e n titled. 1 6 "Fire-Re nt Lubric ant s in Gas Turbines 1 7 by Earl P. Farmer, Jr., Bates Nos. 010037959 1 8 through 010037968, is marked Hatton-18 for 1 9 identifi cation. ) 2 0 (Document entitled "Part 1 - 2 1 Synthetic Lube Reduces Fire Hazard At Turbine 2 2 Stations" by O.M. Fletcher, dated June, 1960, 2 3 Bates Nos U000029 through U000035 is marked 2 4 Hatton-19 fox' identification.) 2 5 (Document entitled, "Part waga and spinelli certified shorthand reporters 405 Northfietd Avenue West Orange, M. J. 07052 201-731-9666 WATER PCB-SD0000062028 R. E. Hatton - PROTECTED 256 1 2-Synthetic Lube Reduces Fire Hazard at 2 Turbine Stations" by O.M. Fletcher, Bates 3 Nos. U000036 through U000040 is marked 4 Hatton-20 for identification. ) 5 MR. PUPKE: Number 18 is a 6 document entitled. "Fire -resistant Lubricants 7 In Gas Turbines" by Earl P. Farmer, J r . 8 It has a Bates stamp number 9 010037959, numbered consecutively through 1 0 010037968. 1 1 The next document is Exhibit 1 2 19. It's a document entitled "Part 1 - 1 3 Synthetic Lubricant" -- I'm sorry, 1 4 "Synthetic Lube Reduces Fire Hazard At 1 5 Turbine Stations . " 1 6 It's authored by O.M. Fletcher, 1 7 Assistant Supervisor of Design and 1 8 Construction, Texas Eastern Transmission 1 9 Corporation, Shreveport, Louisiana. 2 0 It appears to be from a magazine 2 1 article, which is from a magazine entitled 2 2 "Pipeline Industry," dated June, 1960, and it 2 3 bears -- I hope it bears. Okay. 2 4 It bears -- well, it's a Texas 2 5 Eastern produced document. I can't really waga and spinelli certified shorthand reporters 405 Northfield Avenue West Orange, N. J. 07052 201-731-9666 WATER PCB-SD0000062029 R. E. Hatton - PROTECTED 257 1 read the numbers. I believe it can be 2 U000029 through U000035. 3 And the final document that I'm 4 introducing is a document entitled. Part 2 - 5 "Synthetic Lube Reduces Fi re Hazard A t 6 Turbine Stations . " Again, by Dr. 0,. M . 7 Fletcher. 8 Q. Am I right? Is he is a doctor? 9 A. No. 1 0 Q I'm sorry. 1 1 MR. PUPKE: I withdraw that 1 2 doctor designation. 1 3 By O.M. Fletcher, As s i s t a n t 1 4 Supervisor of Design and Construe t i o n . 1 5 It is a document bea ring Bates 1 6 number U000036 through 40. 1 7 MR. HART: And these should all 1 8 be shown as protected documents. 1 9 MR. DAVIDSON: He's ready to go 2 0 forward on that one with you. 2 1 MR. PUPKE: Sure. 2 2 Q. Dr. Hatton, in your testimony 2 3 previously you've referred to an article by 2 4 EarlFarmer as the basis for your answer on a 2 5 few different occasions. waga and spinelli certified shorthand reporters 405 Northfield Avenue West Orange, N. J. 07052 201-731-9666 WATER PCB-SD0000062030 R, E. Hatton - PROTECTED 258 1 And I wanted to know if this, in 2 fact, is the article that you had referred to 3 in your previous answers. 4 A. Yes. 5 MR. HART: To the best of his 6 knowledge. 7 Q. Did you haveoccasion to read 8 this article after I gave it to you? Peruse 9 it, I should say. 10 A. Scan . - 1 1 Q. Are you familiar with the 1 2 contentsofthisarticle? 1 3 A. Generally. 1 4 Q. Were you familiar prior to your 1 5 deposition here today? 1 6 Let me rephrase the question. 1 7 A. Yeah, that question is awfully hard to 1 8 answer . 1 9 Q. Had, prior to your testimony, 2 0 did you have occasion to read this article? 2 1 A. At the time the article was written 2 2 and given to -- shown to Monsanto, I read it 2 3 at that time. 2 4 MR. DAVIDSON : And, Counsel, 2 5 it's one of the documents. or a similar waga and spinelli certified shorthand reporters 405 Northfield Avenue West Orange, N. J. 07052 201-731-9666 WATER PCB-SD0000062031 R. E. Hatton - PROTECTED 259 1 document was produced by Monsanto and was one 2 of the documents reviewed in preparation -- 3 MR. PUPKE: Right. 4 MR. DAVIDSON: -- preparation 5 for deposition. 6 MR. PUPKE: I realize that. 7 Q. Hatton-2 indicates that, on page 8 2 it indicates that they are including 9 abridged excerpts from a paper entitled, 1 0 "Fire-resistant Lubricants In Gas Turbines. 1 1 The paper was presented during 1 2 the annual meeting of the American Society of 1 3 Lubrication Engineers in Chicago on May 4th 1 4 through 7th, 1970. 1 5 Is it your testimony that you 1 6 read this article at about that time? 17 A. Yes. 1 8 Q. Okay. I'll get back to this. 1 9 Would you please turn to Hatton 20 Exhibit 19 and Exhibit 20. Part 1 is 19, 2 1 Part 2 is 20. 2 2 A. Part 2 is 20. 2 3 Q. When you're ready. Take your 2 4 time, though. 2 5 A. (The witness reviews the document.) waga and spinelli certified shorthand reporters 405 Northfield Avenue West Orange, N. J. 07052 201-731-9666 WATER PCB-SD0000062032 R. E. Hatton - PROTECTED 260 1 MR. PUPKE: Just for the record, 2 the second page on Hatton 19 appears not to 3 relate at all to this article, the best I can 4 tell. 5 Unless -- but that's the way it 6 was produced to us. So, it doesn't -- page 7 one feeds into page three, I believe. 8 MR. HART: Off the record. 9 (A discussion takes place off 1 0 therecord.) - 1 1 Q. Are you ready -- 1 2 MR. PUPKE: Off the record. 1 3 (A discussion takes place off 1 4 the record.) 1 5 Q. Are you ready to proceed. Dr. 1 6 Hatton? 1 7 A. Yes. 1 8 Q. You've had an opportunity to 1 9 review Exhibit 19 and Exhibit 20. 2 0 A. Yes. 2 1 Q. Did you have a chance to read 2 2 those documents? 2 3 A. I have scanned them. 2 4 Q. Have you seen these documents 2 5 prior to today, excluding any review you may waga and spinelli certified shorthand reporters 405 Northfield Avenue West Orange, N. J. 07052 201-731-9666 WATER PCB-SD0000062033 R . E ,. H a 11 on - PROTECTED 261 1 have had w i t h Counsel? 2 A. 0 h , yes 3 Q. When did you first see these 4 articles? 5 A. I will use the date 0 n the art i c 1 e 6 come close to a date. And i t was s 0 m e t i m e 7 Q At about the time -- 8 A. -- atabout the time of publication, 9 which is stated here to be June, 1960. 10 Q. Did Mr. Fletcher contact you - 1 1 during his preparation of these articles for 1 2 any input you may have into the information? 1 3 Did Mr. Fletcher ever contact 1 4 you prior to the publication of this article 1 5 to inform you that he was planning on writing 1 6 thesearticles? 1 7 A. I don't remember it. 1 8 Q. In reviewing these documents, is 1 9 there anything in these documents which would 2 0 give you reason to believe that Dr. Fletcher 2 1 contacted you, or that Mr. Fletcher contacted 2 2 you prior to the publication of these 2 3 articles regarding information for these 2 4 articles? 2 5 MR. HART: I'll object. That's waga and spinelli . certified shorthand reporters 405 NortMield Avenue West Orange, N. J. 07052 201-731-9666 WATER PCB-SD0000062034 R. E. Hatton - PROTECTED 262 1 a little broad, I think. 2 A. Physical property data in here were 3 generated by Monsanto. And somewhere along 4 the line they were obtained by Mr. Fletcher, 5 or somebody at Texas Eastern. 6 Q. Did you ever give this 7 information you just spoke about to someone 8 at Texas Eastern at about the time of this 9 article? 10 A. Th e in formation in the OS-81 product 1 1 bulletin was a type of information that had 1 2 been o o < i d e d to them. and which is covered 1 3 here. 1 4 Q 0 n Hatton Exhibit 1 9 , on page 1 5 the t h i r d page. which is U 0 0 0 0 3 1 , it's sort 1 6 o f cut off at the bott o m . It's one with the 1 7 pic t u r e on the top of the page - - 18 A. 19 Yes Q. -- of a flame tore h being used 2 0 to ignite or not ignite synthetic lube oil. 2 1 There is a semi-heading there on 2 2 the left-hand column. It says, "What Are The 2 3 Lubricants?" In bold print. 2 4 And it goes on to state that, 2 5 "At the present stage of development, waga and spinelli certified shorthand reporters 405 Northfield Avenue West Orange, N. J. 07052 201-731-9666 WATER PCB-SD0000062035 R. E. Hatton - PROTECTED 263 1 fire-resistant lubricants offered for turbine 2 application can be separated on the basis of 3 a formulation in to five general groups." 4 Yes t e r d a y you testified as to 5 different groups of fire-resistant 6 lubricant s . Is this consistent with your 7 testimony - - 8 A. Ye s -- 9 M R . H ART : I object. I don't 1 0 M R . PUPKE ; Is your objection 1 1 form, Mr. Hart? 1 2 M R . HART : Yes, it is. 1 3 M R . PUPKE : Okay. Thank you. 1 4 M R . HART : And I'm going to 1 5 spell it out. 1 6 I don't know how you can say 1 7 what's in this article consistent with his 1 8 MR . PUPKE : All right. 1 9 That's -- that ' s an o b j ection to form. 2 0 MR . HART: All right. 2 1 M R . PUPKE : And I will try to 2 2 correct i t for your edi fication. 2 3 Q - D r . Hatton , is what ' s written 2 4 here consistent with what your understanding 2 5 of fire-resistant lubricants was in 19 -- waga and spinelli certified shorthand reporters 405 Northfield Avenue West Orange, N, J. 07052 201-731-9666 WATER PCB-SD0000062036 R. E. Hatton - PROTECTED 264 1 the types o f fire-resist a n t lubricants being 2 d e v e loped i n 1 9 6 0 ? 3 A. Th i s is the class i f ication that was 4 used by the ASTM committ e e s at that t i;m e . 5 Q Now, you've t estified tha t Dr 6 F 1 e t cher and yourself we r e on a committee 7 deal i n g w i t h fire-resist a n t lubricants ; i s 8 that c o r r e c t ? 9 A. (The witness nods h is head.) 10 MR. HART: A t some point. - 11 A. Uh -huh. 1 2 Q Do you reca 1 1 if you were o n the 1 3 same comm i t t ee in about 1 9 6 0 ? 14 A. I t e s tified earli e r I can't rem e m b e r 1 5 when the com mittee came i n to existence , s o I 1 6 c a n n o t s t ate that. 1 7 Q It goes on t o state, "Of t h e s e 1 8 five , the pure esters and the ester ba s e d 1 9 grou p s ha v e shown most pro mise on pape r , a n d 2 0 in lab t e s t s ; as a result very nearly all the 2 1 small sea 1 e field tests h a ve been limi ted t o 2 2 t h e s e two t* 2 3 Did you hav1 e an understanding o f 2 4 the tests t h at were beir> 9 conducted on 2 5 fire - r e s i s t a nt lubricant. s at about the t i m e waga and spinelli certified shorthand reporters 405 Northfield Avenue West Orange, N. J. 07052 201-731-9666 WATER PCB-SD0000062037 R . E. Hatton - PROTECTED 265 1 of this article? 2 MR. HART: Tests being conducted 3 by whom? 4 Q. Tests being conducted -- any 5 tests being conducted by the ASTM at about 6 the time. 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. Is this statement consistent 9 with your understanding of tests being 1 0 conducted by the ASTM at about the time of - 1 1 this article? 1 2 A. Yes. 13 1 4 the Q - D o you have an u n d e r s t a n d i n g o f -- now. w e wen t into t h i s yes t e r d a y , and 1 5 I ' m not t r yi n g to g o back on w h a t we went 1 6 intoyesterday. 1 7 But when it refers to ester 1 8 based groups, which is the -- in the first 1 9 sentence there, it says, "of the five the 2 0 pure esters and the ester based groups." 2 1 Do you have an understanding of 2 2 what the ester based groups mean? 2 3 A. Yes. 2 4 Q. would you give me that 2 5 understanding? waga and spinelli certified shorthand reporters 405 Northfield Avenue West Orange, N. J. 07052 201-731-9666 WATER PCB-SD0000062038 R. E. Hatton - PROTECTED 266 1 A. Any product which contained a 2 proportion of ester with some other 3 material . 4 And specifically, a group -- a 5 model compound being tested by ASTM was a 6 chlorinated material and phosphate ester 7 mixture . 8 Q. When you say a chlorinated 9 material, do you remember the composition of 1 0 that -- 1 1 A. Chlorinated polyphenyl -- biphenyl, 1 2 specifically. 1 3 Q. Otherwise known as a PCB? 1 4 MR. HART: I object to the 1 5 form. And it's absolutely an unfair 1 6 question, and it's not right. 1 7 It's a nice try, Don, but it's 1 8 notaccurate. 1 9 Q. Is that otherwise known as a 2 0 PCB? 21 MR. DAVIDSON: Is what otherwise 2 2 known as a PCB? 2 3 Q . What you just testified to. 2 4 MR . DAVIDSON : Well, now known 2 5 as a PCB? waga and spinelli certified shorthand reporters 405 Northfield Avenue West Orange, N. J. 07052 201-731-9666 WATER PCB-SD0000062039 E. Hatton - PROTECTED 267 1 MR. PUPKE : Yes 2 Q At the time - 3 11 was -- 4 Q Let me - - 5 I ' m utterly c o n f u s e d . 6 Q Let me go b a c k . 7 Do you have any 8 whether or not OS-81 was the ester based 9 material which was being used in the ASTM 1 0 tests at about the time of this article? ' 11 MR. HART: I object, unless you 1 2 lay a foundation that there was only one such 1 3 fluid being used by the ASTM. 1 4 Q. Was OS-81, being one of -- 1 5 either the sole, or one of many different 1 6 ester based fire-resistant lubricants being 1 7 tested by the ASTM at about the time of this 1 8 article? 1 9 MR. HART: Objection, compound. 2 0 A. Tests were limited to one material per 2 1 class for developing the specific ASTM test 2 2 methods. They were supplied by the various 2 3 manufacturers. 2 4 One was a pure phosphate ester. 2 5 Two was a Pydraul F 9 type. waga and spinelli certified shorthand reporters 405 Northfield Avenue West Orange, N. J. 07052 201-731-9666 WATER PCB-SD0000062040 R. E. Hatton - PROTECTED 268 1 Three was a straight Aroclor. 2 Four was a water ethylene glycol 3 mixture . 4 And five was a water petroleum 5 oil emulsion 6 Q When you say that two was a 7 Pydraul F 9, did you say type liquid? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q 1 0 Monsanto? I'm sorry. Was that created by 11 A. Yes. 1 2 Q Was the material tested created 1 3 by Monsanto with regard to the test performed 1 4 on phosphate ester based? 1 5 A. It was supplied by Monsanto under a 1 6 code name, and resupplied to people 1 7 developing tests under those code names, 1 8 which were given by ASTM. 1 9 Q. Do you have an understanding as 2 0 to whether the information given here on this 2 1 particular page is -- whether it was drawn 2 2 from the ASTM tests on the various 2 3 fire-resistant lubricants? 2 4 MR. HART: Objection. 2 5 MR. DAVIDSON: You can only go waga and spinelli certified shorthand reporters 405 Northfield Avenue West Orange, N. J. 07052 201-731-9666 WATER PCB-SD0000062041 R. E. Hatton - PROTECTED 269 1 by what the article says. 2 A. The -- are you requesting -- 3 Q. With the exception -- 4 A, -- the source of -- 5 Q. With the exception -- 6 A. Table 1 . 7 Q. -- with the exception of Table 8 1. 9 (A discussion takes place off 1 0 the record.) 1 1 Q. I'm asking if you have an 1 2 understanding. Dr. Hatton. 1 3 A. I don't know where he obtained the 1 4 data. 1 5 I do not disagree with the data. 1 6 Q. Is this consistent with the 1 7 tests and results that were performed by ASTM 1 8 at about the time of this article? 1 9 MR. HART: Objection -- 2 0 Q. Fire-resistant lubricants. 2 1 MR. PUPKE: Let me finish my 2 2 question first, Mr. Hart. 2 3 MR. HART: I thought you had, 2 4 Don. Are you finished now? 2 5 MR. PUPKE : Yes. waga and spinelli certified shorthand reporters 405 IMorthfield Avenue West Orange, N. J. 07052 201-731-9666 WATER PCB-SD0000062042 R. E. Hatton - PROTECTED 27 0 1 MR. HART: I object to the 2 form. I have no idea what "this" refers to. 3 I have no idea what the witness' 4 prior answer was referring to, data in 5 general -- was referring to, with or without 6 your modification of excluding the table at 7 the lower right-hand column of the page. 8 In any event, I think the 9 question as pending is extraordinarily 1 0 ambiguous. ' 1 1 MR. PUPKE: He said he didn't 1 2 know where the data came from, Laird -- 1 3 MR. HART: You said he doesn't 1 4 disagree. You said does that agree with the 1 5 tests . 1 6 I don't understand what's 1 7 pending 1 8 MR. PUPKE: There is a question 1 9 pending . 2 0 If you would please let Dr . 2 1 Hatton concentrate, so he can answer the 2 2 question. 2 3 Q . Dr. Hatton, if you have 2 4 difficulty with the question, I can rephrase 2 5 it for your purposes. waga and spinelli certified shorthand reporters 405 Northfield Avenue West Orange, N. J. 07052 201-731-9666 WATER PCB-SD0000062043 R . E . Hatton - PROTECTED 27 1 1 A. If you are asking the question as t o 2 what the ASTM did in test work, you need t o 3 unde rstand that ASTM is a committee, and a s 4 such, never published such data. 5 Cooperating people worked on 6 ASTM, and the data were returned to ASTM for 7 correlation, coordination, and eventual test 8 method write up and production. 9 The data were determined by 1 0 individual laboratories. ' 1 1 Q. And was one of those 1 2 laboratories, to the best of your knowledge, 1 3 a Texas Eastern laboratory? 1 4 A. I do not know. 1 5 Q. Do you have any recollection as 1 6 to whether Mr. Fletcher was involved in the 1 7 testing of fire-resistant lubricants? 1 8 MR. HART: Objection. 1 9 Q . For the ASTM. 2 0 A. I don't know. 2 1 Q. Is there -- you've reviewed 2 2 this article. I've asked that before. 2 3 Is there anything in this 2 4 article which refreshes your recollection as 2 5 to whether or not you believe that -- waga and spinelli certified shorthand reporters 405 Northfield Avenue West Orange, N. J. 07052 201-731-9666 WATER PCB-SD0000062044 R. E. Hatton - PROTECTED 272 1 withdrawn . 2 Is there anything in this 3 article which makes you want to change your 4 testimony as to when anyone at Texas Eastern 5 knew of thepresence of PCBs in synthetic -- 6 in the Texas Eastern -- in the OS-81 7 synthetic lubricating oil? 8 MR. HART: Objection to form. 9 MR. DAVIDSON: I'll object to 1 0 that, Don. I think as the questions have ' 1 1 been phrased with respect to when, he's tried 1 2 to pin it down. He says he didn't know, 1 3 himself. 1 4 If you can come up with 1 5 something in an article or otherwise, you can 1 6 obviously go with it. It sounds as if you're 1 7 trying to impeach his prior testimony. 1 8 MR. FUPKE: No, I'm certainly 1 9 not trying to impeach his priortestimony. 2 0 I'm just trying to see if this 2 1 may in some way refresh his recollection as 2 2 to what the knowledge of Texas Eastern was 2 3 with regard to -- 2 4 THE WITNESS: No. 2 5 Q. Okay. If we turn to waga and spinelli certified shorthand reporters 405 Northfield Avenue West Orange, N. J. 07052 201-731-9666 WATER PCB-SD0000062045 R. E. Hatton - PROTECTED 273 1 Hatton 20, did you have a chance to review 2 this before? 3 MR. DAVIDSON: Before today? 4 MR. PUPKE : No, No. I mean 5 before. 6 Q. Before, while you were reviewing 7 documents. Would you please -- 8 MR. DAVIDSON: I'll tell you we 9 have not seen this document before today. 10 MR.PUPKE: Okay. - 1 1 Q. Would you please review this? 1 2 MR. DAVIDSON: Except to the 1 3 extent he's testified he saw them when they 1 4 were published. 1 5 MR. PUPKE: Okay. 1 6 MR. DAVIDSON: We did not review 1 7 these. and do not have this in our files. 1 8 MR. HOOK: Off the record. 19 (A discuss ion takes place off 2 0 the record ) 21 A. Yes , I have -- I have scanned this 2 2 document. quickly . 2 3 Q On the page numbered U000039, 2 4 there is a section under -- on the left-hand 2 5 side. which goes on to the right-hand side. waga and spinelli certified shorthand reporters 405 Northfield Avenue West Orange, N. J. 07052 201-731-9666 WATER PCB-SD0000062046 R. E. Hatton - PROTECTED 274 1 which is under the bold caption "Toxicity." 2 A. Uh-huh . 3 MR. HART: The product refers to 4 a minor nusance. 5 MR. PUPKE: I'm sorry, where is 6 that from? 7 M R HART : The end of the 8 paragraph I t h i n k you 're referri n g to. 9 M R PUPKE: No, I'm r e f e r r i n g to 1 0 the beginnin g o f the paragraph. 1 1 MR HART : But that is the right 1 2 paragraph . 1 3 MR. PUPKE: Where it deals with 1 4 toxicity, and eye irritation, and other 15 irritation to the skin of the users. 1 6 Off the record. 1 7 (A discussion takes place off 1 8 the record.) 1 9 Q. Dr. Hatton, do you have an 2 0 understanding of the toxic nature of the 2 1 OS-81 lubricating oil at about the time of 2 2 this article, which I believe would be in 23 1960? 2 4 MR . DAVIDSON : I'm going to 2 5 object to your use of the phrase "toxic waga and spinelli certified shorthand reporters 405 Northfield Avenue West Orange, N. J. 07052 201-731-9666 WATER PCB-SD0000062047 R. E. Hatton - PROTECTED 275 1 material . " 2 MR. HART: Objection. 3 MR. DAVIDSON: Just answer the 4 question. Just answer the question. 5 Q. If you would like me to rephrase 6 it -- 7 A. Am I aware of it? 8 Q Were you, at the time of this 9 article. aware of the toxicity aspect o f 1 0 0S-8 1 ? - 1 1 A. Yes. 1 2 Q. And is what's stated here 1 3 consistent with what your understanding was 1 4 at about the time of the article? 15 MR. DAVIDSON: What's stated in 1 6 the article? Is that what you're saying? 1 7 You're talking the paragraph? 1 8 MR. PUPKE: Yes. 19 MR. DAVIDSON: What's stated in 2 0 the paragraph? 2 1 MR. PUPKE: Yes. 2 2 MR. DAVIDSON: And your question 2 3 is, is that consistent with? 2 4 MR. PUPKE : Yes. 2 5 Q. Your understanding that you just waga and spinelli certified shorthand reporters 405 Northfield Avenue West Orange, N. J. 07052 201-731-9666 WATER PCB-SD0000062048 R. E. Hatton - PROTECTED 276 1 testified that you had, 2 A. My understanding is based on Appendix 3 6 of Exhibit -- 4 Q. Seventeen? 5 A. -- 17. Which, in a quick reading 6 appears to be consistent with what's here. 7 Q. Your understanding in 1960 was 8 based on -- what is that? Appendix 6? 9 A. And that information was used to 1 0 prepare the statement in a bulletin, OS-81 ' 1 1 bulletin, which is appendix -- or is 1 2 included in appendix -- no, it's in Appendix 13 2 -- 1 4 Q Well-- 15 A. - - O f 17, which considers toxicity 1 6 and handling information. 1 7 Those two documents cover what I 1 8 know 1 9 Q . Okay. The question asked was, 2 0 was the s tat ement regarding toxicity on page 2 1 numb e r 3 9 o f the Hatton Exhibit 20 consistent 2 2 with your kn owledge, your understanding of 2 3 the t o X i c i t y of OS-81 at about the time the 2 4 a r t i c 1 e w a s written . 2 5 I note that the date on Hatton waga and spinelli certified shorthand reporters 405 Northfield Avenue West Orange, N. J. 07052 201-731-9666 WATER PCB-SD0000062049 I R. E. Hatton - PROTECTED 277 1 17 is June 29th, 1964. 2 I'm asking about a period 3 prior. If you -- 4 A. I -- 5 Q. -- if you can answer. 6 A. I've already answered that question. 7 MR. HART: I'msorry. Let me 8 state my objection to the characterization 9 and the compound nature of the question 1 0 before you go any further. 11 MR. DAVIDSON: And if you will 1 2 look, and I believe the record will reflect. 1 3 that he's testified that the OS -81 product 1 4 bulletin. technical bulletin to which he is 1 5 referring is dated November of 1 9 5 8. 1 6 M R . PUPKE : Okay. 1 7 M R . DAVIDSON: Which predates 1 8 1 9 6 0. It s t a t e s "Safe Handling And Toxici 1 9 Information '' and he said -- 2 0 M R . PUPKE: Okay. 2 1 MR . DAVIDSON: -- it w o u 1 d be 2 2 c o n s i stent with his understanding of what 2 3 that says. 2 4 M R . PUPKE: I didn't see that 2 5 date. And I appreciate -- waga and spinelli certified shorthand reporters 405 Northfield Avenue West Orange, N. J. 07052 201-731-9666 WATER PCB-SD0000062050 R. E. Hatton - PROTECTED 278 1 MR. DAVIDSON: The OS-81 2 technical bulletin is just an attachment to 3 17, which is created in '64. 4 MR. FUPKE: I didn't see that, 5 and I appreciate your point. Okay. 6 Q. Dr. Hatton, we're done with that 7 Exhibit now. 8 While you were employed at 9 Monsanto, did you maintain personal files 1 0 regarding fire-resistant lubricants? ' 1 1 A. Certainly I maintained working files. 1 2 Q. When you say working files, what 1 3 doyoumean? 1 4 A. Copies of current Call Reports, 1 5 research progress reports, my own 1 6 correspondence, soon. 1 7 Q. Did you maintain -- 1 8 A. Incidentally, these were maintained at 1 9 the company. 2 0 Q When you say thes e were 2 1 m a i ntained at the company, do you mean after 2 2 you left they were maintained at the company? 23 A. No. I mean during the time period 2 4 they were in company owned files in my 2 5 office. waga and spinelli certified shorthand reporters 405 Northfield Avenue West Orange, N. J. 07052 201-731-9666 WATER PCB-SD0000062051 I R. E. Hatton - PROTECTED 279 1 Q . Okay. Can you describe to me 2 the type of files you maintai ned -- strike 3 that. 4 I n 1960 when you went into the 5 development department, from the research 6 department, did you take your files, whatever 7 files you may have had from the research 8 department with you when you went into the 9 development department? 10 A. No. 1 1 Q D o you know what happened to the 1 2 files that you had maintained while you were 1 3 in the rese arch department? 14 A. No. 1 5 Q I n 1968 when you changed from 1 6 the develop m e n t department to the marketing 1 7 department. did you maintain the files that 1 8 you had had w h e n you were in the development 1 9 department? 20 A. No. 2 1 Q - D o you know what happened to 2 2 those files when you made the change? 23 A. No. 2 4 Q . Did you review those files at 2 5 about the time that you made the change? waga and spinelli certified shorthand reporters 405 Northfield Avenue West Orange, N. J. 07052 201-731-9666 WATER PCB-SD0000062052 R. E. Hatton - PROTECTED 280 1 A. I d o n t remember. 2 Q When you left the employment of 3 Monsanto did you have occasion to review your 4 files? 5 MR. DAVIDSON: Don - 6 MR. PUPKE: Withdrawn. 7 MR. DAVIDSON: I object. It 8 seems to me you're getting beyond the scope, 9 the agreed scope of this deposition with 1 0 thesequestions. - 1 1 Monsanto has responded to the 1 2 document request from the carriers with the 1 3 materials that are available at this time 1 4 from Monsanto's files. And I don't see that 1 5 this is getting us anywhere. 1 6 MR. PUPKE: I appreciate your 1 7 concern, I am just asking for the purposes 1 8 of background information, to understand what 1 9 he maintained. 2 0 I have no reason to believe that 2 1 Monsanto did not make a full production of 2 2 all relevant non-pr i vi 1 eged documents to the 2 3 carriers in this case. 2 4 MR. DAVIDSON: And I started the 2 5 deposition by stating that he does not t/vaga and spinelli certified shorthand reporters 405 Northfield Avenue West Orange, N. J. 07052 201-731-9666 WATER PCB-SD0000062053 R. E. Hatton - PROTECTED 281 1 maintain any personal files, other than the 2 product bulletins that have been produced by 3 Monsanto, and some of which we've been 4 discussing here. So -- 5 MR. PUPKE: I think - 6 MR. DAVIDSON: -- I don't see 7 what good the background is. 8 MR. PUPKE: I think I am 9 entitled to a little leeway here, especially 1 0 with regard to the files that he maintained ' 1 1 and what, to the best of his knowledge, 1 2 o cx^u rred to those files after he left the 1 3 employment of Monsanto. 1 4 MR. DAVIDSON: That's totally 1 5 without the agreed parameters of this 1 6 deposition. 1 7 MR. PUPKE: I respectfully 1 8 disagree to the extent that he was asked to 1 9 produce -- or Monsanto -- withdrawn. 2 0 Off the record. 2 1 (A discussion takes place off 2 2 the record.) 2 3 Q. Dr. Hatton, you had testified 2 4 yesterday that you had occasion during the 2 5 late 1950s and into the 1960s to visit waga and spinelli certified shorthand reporters 405 Northfleld Avenue West Orange, N. J. 07052 201-731-9666 WATER PCB-SD0000062054 R. E. Hatton - PROTECTED 282 1 various manufacturers of centrifugal 2 compressors. 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. To the best of your knowledge, 5 were those manufacturers of the centrifugal 6 compressors -- withdrawn. 7 You had testified that one of 8 the companies you had met with was Cooper 9 Bessemer. 1 0 Do you recall approximately how 1 1 many visits you made to Cooper Bessemer at 1 2 about the time of the introduction of OS-81? 1 3 If any. 1 4 A. Ihave -- 15 MR . HART I object -- 16 A . -- I have no k nowledge -- or no 1 7 memory of the number or how many. 1 8 Q. When you 19 A. The name -- 2 0 Q . I'm sorry. 2 1 A. -- strikes a bell. Cooper Bessemer. 2 2 MR. HART: I was intending to 2 3 object to that question -- 2 4 MR. PUPKE: Well, you didn't. 25 MR. HART: -- on the ground waga and spinelli certified shorthand reporters 405 Northfield Avenue West Orange, N. J. 07052 201-731-9666 WATER PCB-SD0000062055 R. E. Hatton - PROTECTED 283 1 that -- well, Istarted, and I didn't want 2 to interrupt the witness. 3 And it's not a big deal, but I 4 want the record to reflect that there is 5 absolutely no clarity whatsoever in terms of 6 what you meant by saying at the time of the 7 introduction of OS-81. 8 MR. PUPKE: Okay. 9 Q.When you made visits to Cooper 1 0 Bessemer, were there several persons, or was- 1 1 there oneperson that you had direct contact 1 2 within theperiod from 19, say, '58 through 1 3 1968? , 1 4 A. I can't --my memory doesn't give 1 5 me -- 1 6 Q Okay. 1 7 A. -- any names. 1 8 Q. That's fair. 1 9 With regard to your visit, you 2 0 had testified that another one you had 2 1 visited was Clark Brothers, which I believe 2 2 is a subsidiary of Dresser Industries, and 2 3 may be known as either. 2 4 Did you have occasion to visit 2 5 them in the period, from 1958 to 1965? waga and spinelli certified shorthand reporters 405 Northfield Avenue West Orange, INI. J. 07052 201-731-9666 WATER PCB-SD0000062056 R. E. Hatton - PROTECTED 284 1 A. I remember the na me -- 2 Q . Do you -- 3 A, -- of Clark. 4 Q. Do you reme m b e r m a k i n g any 5 visits to Clark Industri e s in up state New 6 York? 7 A. 8 Not a specific ca 11, n o . Q. Generally d o y o u re member 9 visiting at Clark Brothe r s ' o f f i c e s at about 1 0 the period 1968 -- 1958 t h rough '68? - 1 1 A. It was my purpose t o c o n t act all 1 2 manufacturers of -- maj o r m a n u f a c t u r e r s of 1 3 equipment involved in th i s field . And since 1 4 they would rate as one o f the m a jors , I ' m 1 5 reasonably sure that I w a s there at s o m e 1 6 time. 1 7 Q. In the 1958 through 1968 period. 18 A. Yes. 1 9 Q. Okay. Doy ou recall any person 2 0 from -- 21 A. I do not . 2 2 Q . -- Clark Br others -- 23 A . No . 2 4 Q . -- who you may have had contact 2 5 with during that period? waga and spinelli certified shorthand reporters 405 Northfield Avenue West Orange, N. J. 07052 201-731-9666 WATER PCB-SD0000062057 R. E. Hatton - PROTECTED 285 1 A. I do not . 2 Q. With regard to the DeLaval 3 company, did you have occasion to visit the 4 DeLaval offices in the period 1958 through 5 1968? 6 A. Same situation as with Clark. 7 Q . You don't recall specifically or 8 generally -- 9 A. Ididnot. 1 0 Q . -- visiting -- - 1 1 A. I do not recall, no. 1 2 Q . Do you recall any particular 1 3 person at DeLaval -- 14 A. No. 1 5 Q . -- who you.contacted? 16 A. No . 1 7 Q . You testified yesterday -- 18 MR. PUPKE: And again, I don't 1 9 mean to characterize his testimony. 2 0 Q. -- that you had a schematic 2 1 knowledge of the workings of a compressor 2 2 system, the type of which was used by Texas 2 3 Eastern at their compressor stations, their 2 4 gas turbine compressor stations. 2 5 A. I do notremember the specific one, waga and spinelli certified shorthand reporters 405 Northfield Avenue West Orange, N. J. 07052 201-731-9666 WATER PCB-SD0000062058 R. E. Hatton - PROTECTED 286 1 but in looking at -- I don't e v en know what 2 the page number is, but the d iagram given in 3 the Exhibit 20 is similar t o the types of 4 things that we had availa b 1 e t o u s . 5 Q That's the -- a ssuming the 6 pages are numbered consec u t i v e 1 y that would 7 be U 0 0 0 0 3 8 , and you're re f e r r i n g to the 8 diagram on the top -- 9 A. Yeah. 10 1 1 A. Q -- of that Yeah. -- 12 13 A. Q Yes. -- page. 1 4 Q Okay. When you had occasion to 1 5 contact the manufacturers o f the centrifugal 1 6 c o mpressors, did any of them ever provide you 1 7 with a schematic of the workings of their 1 8 compressor system? 1 9 MR. DAVIDSON: If you recall. 2 0 A. I cannot recall specific transfer of 2 1 information. 2 2 Q. Can you recall generally if you 2 3 were given the schematics for that? 2 4 A. Our working files contain product 2 5 literature from the major manufacturers -- waga and spinelli certified shorthand reporters 405 Northfield Avenue West Orange, N. J. 07052 201-731-9666 WATER PCB-SD0000062059 R. E. Hatton - PROTECTED 287 1 Q . Including -- 2 A. -- and I assume they were -- a 3 lubricating system was nearly always 4 included -- 5 Q. Do you - 6 A. -- in compressor and turbine 7 manufacturers ' -- 8 Q. Doyou -- 9 A. -- information. 1 0 Q. I'm sorry, I keep on stepping on 1 1 your answers. 1 2 Do you have any general 1 3 recollection as to whether you had an 1 4 opportunity to review the schematics for the 1 5 Texas Eastern centrifugal compressors during 1 6 the period of the 19 -- 17 A. No. 1 8 Q. -- late 1950s through the 1960s? 1 9 A. I have no -- 2 0 MR. HART: Objection. 2 1 A. -- recollection. 2 2 Q. When you testified yesterday as 2 3 to a schematic knowledge of the workings of 2 4 the -- of a centrifugal compressor, what was 2 5 the basis for your testimony? waga and spinelli certified shorthand reporters 405 Northfield Avenue West Orange, N. J. 07052 201-731-9666 WATER PCB-SD0000062060 I R. E. Hatton - PROTECTED 288 1 MR. HART: I'm going to object 2 to the characterization. 3 MR. PUPKE: I don't mean to 4 characterize his testimony. I'm just trying 5 to -- 6 MR. HART: You're asking him for 7 the basis of something I don't think he 8 said. I don't think he ever said anything 9 about his schematic knowledge. 10 I may be wrong, but I don't ' 1 1 think so. 1 2 MR. PUPKE: I'll go back and go 13 over area that was covered yesterday, for 1 4 your information. 1 5 Q. Dr. Hatton, during the period 1 6 from the late 1950s to the early 1970s, did 1 7 you have an understanding of the workings of 1 8 centrifugal compressor systems in use at 1 9 Texas Eastern? 2 0 A. Not of the systems. 2 1 Q. All right. Did you have an 2 2 understanding of the high pressure seal or 2 3 lubricant seal in use in the centrifugal 2 4 compressors used by Texas Eastern during the 2 5 period the late 1950 through the early 1970s? waga and spinelli certified shorthand reporters 405 Northfield Avenue West Orange, N. J. 07052 201-731-9666 WATER PCB-SD0000062061 R. E. Hatton - PROTECTED 289 1 A. Will you repeat that question? 2 Q. Sure. Let me go back a little 3 bit. 4 In your position in the 5 development and marketing departments, did 6 you ever have occasion to become familiar 7 with, or to get any sort of knowledge of the 8 Texas Eastern seal oil system which was in 9 use in their centrifugal compressors? 10 MR. HART: Objection, compound.- 1 1 MR. FUPKE: It was compound 1 2 because I clarified. 1 3 MR. HART: So your question now 1 4 is any kind of knowledge? And you've 1 5 stricken the familiar part? 1 6 MR. DAVIDSON: You want to 1 7 refine your question -- 1 8 Q. If you'd like me to rephrase the 1 9 question again -- 2 0 A. No, it seems to me like it's very 2 1 broad in requesting information on numerous 2 2 things, including the mechanical functions of 2 3 these systems, and that I'm not experienced 24 in . 2 5 Q . You testified yesterday as to waga and spinelli certified shorthand reporters 405 Northfield Avenue West Orange, N. J. 07052 201-731-9666 WATER PCB-SD0000062062 R. E. Hatton - PROTECTED 290 1 the workings of a centrifugal compressor, and 2 the use of the OS-81, or Turbinol or MCS-153, 3 the use of the fire-resistant fluid in 4 that -- in that system. 5 MR. HART: I object to the 6 characterization. 7 MR. PUPKE:I'm not 8 characterizing his testimony. 9 MR. HART: I understand. I need 1 0 to state it anyway, Don. ' 1 1 A. I believe I testified to the fact that 1 2 I knew the conditions under whichthe fluid 1 3 would be exposed. And -- and was 1 4 particularly concerned as to how these 1 5 conditions would put requirements on the 1 6 development of the fluids -- 1 7 Q. When you said -- 1 8 A. -- such things as if it was pressured, 1 9 it had to maintain -- or had to withstand 2 0 high pressure. Properties such as that. 2 1 Now, the information was in 2 2 terms of the properties that were required. 2 3 Q . And the properties, when you say 2 4 the properties that were required, they were 2 5 requiredby Texas Eastern, to the best of waga and spinelli certified shorthand reporters 405 Northfield Avenue West Orange, N. J. 07052 201-731-9666 WATER PCB-SD0000062063 R. E. Hatton - PROTECTED 291 1 your know 1 e d g e ? 2 A. Th ey w ere r e q u i red - - 3 M R . HART: Ob j e c t i o n . Go ahead. 4 A. Th ey w ere r e q u i red by t h e equipment. 5 M R . PUPKE : I ' m g o i n g to 6 introduce Exhibit 21, which is a document 7 entitled, "Texas Eastern Transmission 8 Corporation Fire-resistant Lubricating Oils 9 for GasTurbines and Centrifugal Compressors, 1 0 Specifications and General Data - Acceptable' 1 1 Fluids - August, 1962." 1 2 It bears Bates stamp number -- 1 3 and forgive me if I don't read this 1 4 correctly, but it's semi-illegible. 1 5 It's 00531534 and 535. 1 6 MR. GREGG: This is protected 1 7 material . 1 8 (Document entitled, "Texas 1 9 Eastern Transmission Corporation 2 0 Fire-resistant Lubricating Oils for Gas 2 1 Turbines and Centrifugal Compressors, 2 2 Specifications and General Data - Acceptable 2 3 Fluids - August, 1962," Bates Nos. 00531534 2 4 through 00531535, is marked Hatton-21 for 2 5 identification . ) waga and spinelli certified shorthand reporters 405 Northfield Avenue West Orange, N. J. 07052 201-731-9666 WATER PCB-SD0000062064 I R. E. Hatton - PROTECTED 292 1 Q. Dr. Hatton, I hand you Exhibit 2 Hatton-21. Have you had an opportunity to 3 review this Exhibit? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. Have you ever seen this document 6 before today? 7 A. I do not remember. 8 Q. This document appears to 9 contain -- it states up top that it contains 1 0 specifications and general data of acceptable 1 1 fluids, August, 1962. 1 2 MR. PUPKE: The word "of" is not 1 3 in there. 1 4 Q. And on the right-hand columns -- 1 5 there are two columns, one is capped OS-81 1 6 (Monsanto), and the other is MCS-153 1 7 (Monsanto) . 1 8 Did you have occasion to provide 1 9 any information to Texas Eastern regarding 2 0 the characteristics described here at about 2 1 August, 1962? 2 2 A. Information listed here appears to 23 have come from tech nical bulletins on the two 2 4 products. Either c ome from, or been readily 2 5 derivable from, in terms of viscosity data or waga and spinelli certified shorthand reporters 405 Northfield Avenue West Orange, N. J. 07052 201-731-9666 WATER PCB-SD0000062065 R. E. Hatton - PROTECTED 293 1 something like that. 2 Q. When -- in the right-hand 3 column towards the top of the page it states 4 that the type of material for OS-81 and 5 MCS-153is chlorinated phosphate ester, is 6 that a true statement? 7 MR. HART: Objection to form. 8 Is it a true statement that that's what it 9 says? 1 0 The document speaks foritself.' 1 1 Q. Is that a true statement as to 1 2 the type of material in each of those two 1 3 materials? 1 4 A. Thatwas common nomenclature at the 1 5 time. 1 6 Q When you say common 1 7 nomenclature what do you mean? 18 A. 11 i s a designation that would have 1 9 been used by people working in the field. 2 0 Q When you say people working in 2 1 the field, I -- I don't understand. 2 2 MR. HART: Is there a question 2 3 pending? 2 4 A. It goes all the way from chemists to 2 5 engineers. waga and spinelli certified shorthand reporters 405 Northfield Avenue West Orange, IM. J, 07052 201-731-9666 WATER PCB-SD0000062066 R. E. Hatton - PROTECTED 294 1 Q. Can we use the term scientific 2 community? Would that be fair? 3 MR. HART: Objection. 4 A. Scientific community has to be 5 defined. 6 Q . Okay. We're going to define 7 definitions here if we keep on going. 8 It states that the -- it goes 9 on, number 4, it sets specific gravity. And 1 0 it gives various temperatures in Fahrenheit.- 1 1 And it gives what are the apparently specific 1 2 gravities for each of the -- for Monsanto 1 3 OS-81 and Monsanto MCS-153. 1 4 Without asking you to verify the 1 5 test results here, can you -- do you have an 1 6 understanding of what specific gravity is? 1 7 A. Certainly. 1 8 Q Can you give a layman a 1 9 d e f i n i t i o n of specif ic gravity? 20 A. It's a weight per unit volume. 2 1 Q And is there a set standard 2 2 weight per unit volume that would equal 2 3 number 1.10 of s p e c i fic gravity? 24 A . 1.10 specific gravity is water. 2 5 Q And is it true that -- waga and spinelli certified shorthand reporters 405 Northfield Avenue West Orange, IM. J. 07052 201-731-9666 WATER_PCB-SD0000062067 R. E. Hatton - PROTECTED 295 1 MR. PUPKE: Now, I'm not 2 trying to get -- tap any expertise here. 3 I'm just trying to understand what is meant 4 by these characteristics of the Monsanto 5 fluids . 6 MR. HART: You want to ask the 7 witness his understanding, that's fine. 8 Q When you -- - when a s p e c i f i c 9 g r a v i t y is listed as s o m e t h i n g g r e a ter than 1 0 1.0, does that mean it h as -- i f y o u were t' o 1 1 put something of a specific gravity of 1 2 greater than 1.0 in water, all things being 1 3 equal, water at 1.0, would the material sink, 1 4 or float, or -- 1 5 MR. HART: Are you done? I 1 6 don1' t wan t t o interrupt your question , Don. 1 7 But when you ' r e done, I would like to object. 1 8 not only t o the form -- 1 9 Q. What is -- 2 0 MR. HART: -- because you're 2 1 going way beyond the bounds of the 30(b)(6) 2 2 notice. 2 3 MR. PUPKE : I ' m just trying to 2 4 understand the characteristics of Monsanto 2 5 OS-81 and Monsanto MCS-153. waga and spinelli certified shorthand reporters 405 Northfield Avenue West Orange, N. J. 07052 201-731-9666 WATER PCB-SD0000062068 R. E. Hatton - PROTECTED 296 1 A. All right. My definition of specific 2 gravity was correct, but not complete, I now 3 realize . 4 Now, s pec i f i c gravity is a 5 relative term that has n o units. Therefore, 6 it means it is comp are d t o something. 7 Q . Yes. 8 A. So basically it is the weight per unit 9 of the material being tested, divided by the 1 0 weight per volume of water -- ' 1 1 Q . Okay. 1 2 A. -- at the temperature that we're 1 3 talking about. 1 4 Q . Okay. 1 5 A. That's an exact definition. 1 6 Q. Okay. If a material has a 1 7 specific gravity, such as the Monsanto items 1 8 listed here, which appear to be greater than 1 9 one at various temperatures, relative to 2 0 water. 21 A. Uh-huh . 2 2 Q. Are they heavier compounds? 23 A . Yes. 2 4 MR. HART: Objection. 2 5 Q . They are heavier to the extent waga and spinelli certified shorthand reporters 405 Northfield Avenue West Orange, N. J. 07052 201-731-9666 WATER_PCB-SD0000062069 R. E. Hatton - PROTECTED 297 1 that if you put a fluid with a specific 2 gravity greater than t h at of water in water, 3 it would sink; i s that correct? 4 MR . HART : Objection. 5 A. Not necessarily They may dissolve in 6 each other. 7 Q Okay. With the exception of a 8 liquid that would dissolve in water. 9 A. Then the an swer is yes. 10 MR. HART: Same objection. ' 1 1 Q, Were you ever told by anyone at 1 2 Texas Eastern, or given -- told by anyone at 1 3 Texas Eastern what the specific gravity of 1 4 natural gas was? 1 5 MR. HART: Obje c t i o n . 1 6 Q . Is. I'm sorry. 1 7 A. Idon't remember. 1 8 Q. Do you have an understanding o f 1 9 what the specific gravity of natural gas i s 2 0 relative to water? 2 1 MR. HART: Obje c t i o n . 2 2 A. That's -- I have -- 2 3 MR. DAVIDSON: We're getting 2 4 pretty far afield here. 2 5 MR. PUPKE: Yes, this is my last waga and spinelli certified shorthand reporters 405 Northfield Avenue West Orange, N. J. 07052 201-731-9666 WATER PCB-SD0000062070 R. E. Hatton - PROTECTED 298 1 question . 2 A. You cannot -- well, I would like to 3 restate my answer. 4 The specific gravity of gases is 5 so low compared to that of water , that you 6 cannot normally talk of spe c i f i c gravity of 7 gases , such as natural gas. or a i r , that 8 type -- 9 Q. When you say lower, do you mean 1 0 it'slessthan -- 1 1 A. Much less -- 1 2 MR. HART: Objection. 1 3 Q. -- less than one? 14 A. Yes. . 1 5 Q . Okay. 16 A. You generally w o u 1 d measure , where you 1 7 m e a s u r e t h e s e in grams per m i 1 1 i 1 i ter or 1 8 po u n d s per gallon air. you would b e measuring 1 9 i n term s o f cubic feet , or some s u c h thing. 2 0 a n d you s t ill end up w i t h v e r y s m a 1 1 2 1 numbers 22 T h e r e is no - - there is no 2 3 r e lation between them -- the speci f i c 2 4 gr a v i t i e s . 2 5 Q Okay . Now, were you ever given waga and spinelli certified shorthand reporters 405 Northfield Avenue West Orange, N. J. 07052 201-731-9666 WATER_PCB-SD0000062071 R. E. Hatton - PROTECTED 299 1 by anyone at Texas Eastern a list of 2 specifications that Texas Eastern was looking 3 for in a fire-resistant lubricant? 4 MR. HART: Objection. 5 Q. In the period from the late 6 1950s to, say, the mid-1960s? 7 MR. HART: Objection to form. 8 A. I don't remember a specific list. 9 Q. Generally did anyone at Texas 1 0 Eastern ever give you a list, or -- verbally 1 1 or on paper, of specifications for 1 2 fire-resistant lubricants? 1 3 MR. HART: Objection. 1 4 Q. That Texas Eastern wanted to use 1 5 in their turbines systems? 1 6 MR. HART: Same objection. 1 7 A. We discussed the properties of the 1 8 materials in terms of what they -- what we 1 9 had. 2 0 Q Did anyone at Texas Eastern, to 2 1 the best of your knowledge, ever consider 2 2 using Pydraul in the compressor systems at 2 3 Texas Eastern? 2 4 MR. HART: Objection to form. 2 5 A. I don't know. waga and spinelli certified shorthand reporters 405 Northfield Avenue West Orange, N. J. 07052 201-731-9666 WATER_PCB-SD0000062072 R. E. Hatton 300 1 MR. FUPKE : Can we take a break 2 here? 3 (There is a recess.) 4 MR. GREGG: Off the record. 5 (A discussion takes place off 6 therecord.) 7 Q. Dr. Hatton, without 8 characterizing your testimony from yesterday, 9 I believe you touched on the area of the 1 0 definition of the word consumption of ' 1 1 lubricating oil with regardto what I believe 1 2 was Hatton Exhibit 8, but I'm not a hundred 1 3 percent sure on that. 1 4 Well, regardless of what Exhibit 1 5 it is in reference to, your testimony was to 1 6 the effect that machines, "consumed" 1 7 lubricating oil through aseries of different 1 8 factors that came into play, such as leakage, 1 9 untight joints, bad seals, pumpshafts, 2 0 rotating machinery, statics or seals in 2 1 ordinary piping. 22 A . Uh-huh . 2 3 Q. I believe that list was a quote 2 4 that I was able to get from the court 2 5 reporter yesterday, so I'm pretty sure about waga and spinelli certified shorthand reporters 405 Northfield Avenue West Orange, N. J. 07052 201-731-9666 WATER PCB-SD0000062073 R. E. Hatton 301 1 those . 2 In your experience with the 3 Texas Eastern's use of the fire-resistant 4 lubricants, do you know if Texas Eastern ever 5 had a leakage problem -- well, maybe I'd be 6 better off - 7 A. Yes. 8 Q -- asking you what you meant by 9 the term leakage in your answer yes t e r d a y , t o 1 0 the e x t e n t that you answered that. - 1 1 And I don't mean to characterize 1 2 your testimony. 1 3 MR. HART: Well - 1 4 A. Leakage is escape out of the working 1 5 system. 1 6 Q . When you say escape out of the 1 7 working system, with regard to Texas 1 8 Eastern ' s working syst e m , do you have any 1 9 knowledge a s to where the 1 u b r i c a t i n g oil 2 0 would escape to? 21 A. No , I do not. 2 2 Q When you say there would b e 2 3 consumption through untight joints, w i t h o u t 2 4 characterizing your testimony, again, what 2 5 did you mean? waga and spinelli certified shorthand reporters 405 Northfield Avenue West Orange, N. J. 07052 201-731-9666 WATER PCB-SD0000062074 R. E. Hatton 302 1 A. Normal piping systems. 2 Q. When you say normal piping 3 systems, what do you mean? 4 A. Just what I said. I don't -- will 5 you define your question further? 6 Q. Well, I'm trying to understand 7 what you mean by normal piping systems. 8 You used the term normal piping 9 systems in your answer. 1 0 A. Well,any -- - 1 1 Q. And -- 1 2 A. -- any time you move the liquid around 1 3 the system, you have to have some sort of a 1 4 conduit, normally called pipe. And that's 1 5 what I'm talking about. 1 6 Q. And you were familiar to some 1 7 extent with Texas Eastern's system which used 1 8 the lubricating oil during the period that 1 9 you were working on the fire resistant 2 0 lubricating oil for Texas Eastern, is that 2 1 true? 2 2 MR. HART: I object. 2 3 A. Familiar with the system as 2 4 demonstrated in one of the schematics we 2 5 talked about earlier, and you cannot put waga and spinelli certified shorthand reporters 405 Northfield Avenue West Orange, N. J. 07052 201-731-9666 WATER PCB-SD0000062075 I R . E. Hatton 3 03 1 together such a system without joints. 2 Q. Right. Are you familiar with 3 any particular problems that Texas Eastern 4 had with regard to untight joints in any of 5 their systems on their -- 6 A. I'mnot -- 7 MR. HART: Objection. 8 A. -- I'm not that familiar with their 9 operating data. 1 0 Q. Again, I'm not trying to 1 1 characterize your testimony. 1 2 But you stated yes terday that 1 3 bad seals may be the cause for consumption 1 4 lubricati n g oil. What did you mean by bad 1 5 seals? 16 A. I was talking about one that either 1 7 had a bad gasket in the seal. And by bad 1 8 would say incompatible is probably a better 1 9 term than bad, which would mean that it was 2 0 attacked by the fluid -- 2 1 Q . When you say -- 2 2 A. -- or, similarly, loose bolts. 2 3 Q . When you say attacked by the 2 4 system. By the fluid, I'm sorry. What do 2 5 youmean? waga and spinelli certified shorthand reporters 405 Northfield Avenue West Orange, N. J. 07052 201-731-9666 WATER PCB-SD0000062076 R. E. Hatton 304 1 A. Softened, dissolved, 2 Q. Were there any materials which 3 were dissolved in OS-81 that you're familiar 4 with? 5 MR. HART: Objection. 6 A. There is materials compatibility 7 information developed and put in our 8 technical bulletins and made available. 9 I do not remember the details of 1 0 it, and the types of the materials that are ' 1 1 listed there. 1 2 Q . A r e you familiar w ith a problem 1 3 that Texas East ern had relating to the 1 4 dissolving, of r ubber based 0 ri ngs in their 1 5 compressor seal systems? 16 A. No. 1 7 MR. HART: Objection. I'd like 1 8 to make a statement to the record, Don. 1 9 I find your manner of asking 2 0 questions a little difficult sometimes, 2 1 because it often is not clear to me when 2 2 you've come to the end of a question. And on 2 3 occasion, I notice you have, after a pause, 2 4 in which it becomes clear to you that the 2 5 witness is not going to answer, I notice that waga and spinelli certified shorthand reporters 405 Northfield Avenue West Orange, N. J. 07052 201-731-9666 WATER PCB-SD0000062077 R. E. Hatton 3 05 1 you have then added another phrase to your 2 question. 3 I don't intend to interrupt any 4 of your questions. I don't intend to 5 interrupt t h-e witness ' answers., And I 6 apologize if I've done that. 7 I'm doing my best to f i n d that 8 micro-second between the point where you seem 9 to have come to the end of a question, and 1 0 the point at which the witness begins to ' 1 1 respond . 1 2 M R . PUPKE : 1 3 question mark. 1 4 M R . HART : 1 5 ear after the r e c 1 6 Q . Dr . Hatton, 1 7 contact you in t 1 8 regarding a series of seal failures that 1 9 Texas Eastern had, which resulted in the 2 0 consumption of a large amount -- 2 1 A. I don't remember -- 2 2 MR. HART: Objection. 2 3 Q. -- of Turbinol? 2 4 MR. HART: Objection. 2 5 A. I don't remember. waga and spinelli certified shorthand reporters 405 Northfield Avenue West Orange, N. J, 07052 201-731-9666 WATER PCB-SD0000062078 R. E. Hatton 3 06 1 Q. When you testified -- without, 2 again, characterizing yourtestimony, you 3 stated that oil, lubricating oil could be 4 consumed through pump shafts. What did you 5 mean? 6 A. Generally the fluid is moved about the 7 system by some sort of a lubricating oil pump 8 or a hydraulic pump. This is normally driven 9 by something from the outside, and results in 1 0 the necessity for a rotary seal of some sort' 1 1 on the pump itself. 1 2 These seals are of a wide 1 3 variety, many of them are made out of organic 1 4 elastomeric, or organic materials which can 1 5 be attacked by fluids. And therefore the 1 6 compatibility of that area was also -- is 1 7 also covered under compatibility -- 1 8 Q. And that was -- 1 9 A. -- testing. 2 0 Q. And -- and that was covered 2 1 under compatibility in a document similar to 2 2 Hatton 17? 2 3 A. Well, in there is a bulletin which I'm 2 4 pretty sure contains some. 2 5 If not, there is such waga and spinelli certified shorthand reporters 405 Northfield Avenue West Orange, N. J. 07052 201-731-9666 WATER PCB-SD0000062079 R. E. Hatton 307 1 information in the one that I can see laying 2 out over the r e . W h a t e v e r n umber that may be 3 M R . HART: Tha t's Exhibit 2. 4 A. E x h i b it 2 5 Q I s the b u 1 1 e t i n that you refer 6 to as a part o f Hatton 1 7 - - 7 A. I'm c heck i n g on i t . 8 (A discus sion takes place off 9 the record.) 10 A. Yeah. - 11 12 A. Q Doe s -- - - EX h i b i t 17, page TEX 000267 is the 1 3 start of sue h in format ion. And it goes on 1 4 for a couple o f pages . 1 5 Q. Is page -- the bulletin that 1 6 begins at page 000264, a bulletin that you 1 7 created when you were at Monsanto? 1 8 MR. DAVIDSON: It's this one. 1 9 THE WITNESS J It's the same one? 20 A. No. If you look a t the last page t 2 1 you'll see that the init i a 1 s are J. B . D . The 2 2 date is 11/11/58. 2 3 Q. And who -- do you have an 2 4 understanding as to who J.B.D. is? 2 5 A. The Jim Davis discussed -- talked waga and spinelli certified shorthand reporters 405 Northfield Avenue West Orange, N. J. 07052 201-731-9666 WATER PCB-SD0000062080 R. E. Hatton 3 08 1 about earlier in the day. 2 Q. Do you have an understanding as 3 to whether you saw this document at about the 4 time of its creation, which I believe is 5 November -- at about the time of its date, 6 November 11, 1958? 7 A. Certainly. 8 Q. Do you have an understanding as 9 to why this document was created? 1 0 When I talk about this document' 1 1 I'm talking the document beginning -- which 1 2 is a part of Hatton 17,beginning at 000264. 1 3 A. Any product which was released to 1 4 multiple, potential customers would have a 1 5 product bulletin prepared for it, with all of 1 6 the information available at the time of 1 7 preparation included. This such a bulletin. 1 8 Q. At about the time of this 1 9 bulletin, November 11, 1958, were there any 2 0 purchasers of OS-81, to the best of your 2 1 knowledge? 2 2 MR. HART: You mean people who 2 3 had already placed orders, people who had 2 4 already accepted delivery, people who had 2 5 already indicated an interest in purchasing? waga and spinelli certified shorthand reporters 405 Northfield Avenue West Orange, N. J. 07052 201-731-9666 WATER_PCB-SD0000062081 R. E. Hatton 3 09 1 (A discussion takes place off 2 the record between the witness and his 3 attorney . ) 4 A. I cannot recollect specifics sales 5 records, but I just refreshed my memory from 6 Exhibit 18, which says that in 1958 Texas 7 Eastern ran some field tests. So obviously 8 they had fluid from Monsanto, because it was 9 run on OS-81. 1 0 Q. And this document, beginning at' 1 1 000264 would have been sent to companies that 1 2 either were consumers, or running field tes 1 3 of OS- 8 1 at about the time of its creation? 1 4 MR. HART: Objection, 1 5 A. Yes. Or anybody who wrote into the 1 6 company and asked about it. 1 7 Q. Do you have any reason to 1 8 believe that Texas Eastern would not have 1 9 gotten a copy of this particular document? 2 0 A. Let's see, is there a double negative 2 1 there? 2 2 Q. It's purposefully there. 23 MR. DAVIDSON: It's a negative 2 4 A. I have no reason to doubt that they 2 5 got the information. waga and spinelli certified shorthand reporters 405 Northfield Avenue West Orange, N. J. 07052 201-731-9666 WATER PCB-SD0000062082 R. EE.. Hatton 3 10 1 Q. Can I turn Your attention to 2 Hatton Exhibit 19, the page marked U000032. 3 On the top of the page -- it's that page 4 there . 5 A. Uh-huh. 6 Q. There is a picture of a hot 7 manifold test. 8 On the lower lefthand column it 9 states, "All five groups of the 1 0 fire-resistant fluids pose some problem in ' 1 1 application because of incompatibility with 1 2 some types of materials normally used in 1 3 gasakets, packings paints, et cetera. Both 1 4 the pure ester and ester base oils are 1 5 generally similar so far as material 1 6 compatibility is concerned. The natural 1 7 rubbers. Buna N," I believe -- 1 8 A. Buna. 1 9 Q. -- "and Neoprene are generally 2 0 unsuitable and should be replaced with other 2 1 compatible materials such as butyl, viton A, 2 2 nylon, silicone, poly FBA, Teflon, et 2 3 cetera. These are materials of the 2 4 elastomers group." 2 5 Do you have an understanding of waga and spinelli certified shorthand reporters 405 Northfield Avenue West Orange, N. J. 07052 201-731-9666 WATER PCB-SD0000062083 R. E. Hatton 3 11 1 what that paragraph I just read means? 2 A. It's a reasonable summary of the 3 compatibility data we've been discussing. 4 Q. Okay. So, this paragraph here 5 that I just quoted from, you're saying that 6 in effect, it repeats,but not word by word, 7 what has been stated in the technical 8 bulletin that we were referring to earlier, 9 which begins on TEX 000264. 1 0 MR. HART: Objection to form. - 1 1 A. (The witness nods his head.) 1 2 MR. DAVIDSON: I'd like to point 1 3 out that the article you're quoting from is 1 4 written and published by someone, Mr. 1 5 Fletcher from Texas Eastern. And the witness 1 6 has stated that it appears to be a reasonable 1 7 summary of the compatibility in question. 1 8 MR. PUPKE: And that was in the 1 9 article that was from June, 1960. 2 0 MR. DAVIDSON: Right. 2 1 MR. PUPKE: And the technical 2 2 bulletin was from November, 1958. 2 3 MR. DAVIDSON: Correct. 2 4 Q. If I can touch back on an area 2 5 that was touched on yesterday, you stated waga and spinelli certified shorthand reporters 405 Northfield Avenue West Orange, N, J. 07052 201-731-9666 WATER_PCB-SD0000062084 Hatton 3 12 1 yesterday, and again, I'm not trying to 2 characterize your testimony, that you had 3 visited Texas Eastern's, either one or a few 4 Texas Eastern compressor station sites. 5 A. Uh-huh . 6 Q . One i n particular you remembered 7 was one south of M i s s o u r i . 8 And I believe your te stimony is 9 t o the effect th a t that occurred i n the 1958 1 0 through -- at about the time in 1958 ' 1 1 through, say, 1965 period. 1 2 A. (The witness nods his head.) 1 3 Q. I'm not trying to characterize 1 4 your testimony, again. 1 5 When you made this visit or 1 6 visits, was there anyone from Texas Eastern's 1 7 main office in Shreveport who accompanied 1 8 you? 1 9 Withdrawn. Let me -- 20 A I just -- 2 1 Q. -- let me rephrase the 2 2 question. 2 3 I believe it's y our testimony 2 4 that during the period in the late '50s to, 2 5 say, the early 19 -- or mid- 1960s, that waga and spinelli certified shorthand reporters 405 Northfield Avenue West Orange, N. J. 07052 201-731-9666 WATER PCB-SD0000062085 R, E. Hatton 3 13 1 Mr. Fletcher was a perso n who you had contact 2 with at Texas Eastern, And probably -- you 3 contacted him the majori ty of times. Now -- 4 or a large number of tim es compared with 5 other people there. 6 Now, again I'm not trying to say 7 what y o u said, but th e t estimony will reveal 8 what y o u said. 9 When y o u v i sited the compressor 1 0 s t a t ion s , do you re m e m b e r if there was anyone 1 1 from T e x a s Eastern' s m a i n office who met you 1 2 t h e r e , o r -- or me t you there? 13 A. 11 was alway s my policy to never walk 1 4 into a n o perating u n i t o f any company without 1 5 p r i o r P e r mission, a nd i f at all possible, 1 6 some body representi ng t h e engineering or 1 7 product i o n departme n t s w i t h me. 1 8 Q Okay. 19 A. A n d I can on 1 Y a s sum e, since I can ' t 2 0 r e m e m b e r the exact s t a t i o n , or the date. that 2 1 I ha d s o m ebody with m e , bee ause that was m y 2 2 norm a 1 pr actice. 2 3 Q When y o u w e n t to the station o r 2 4 s t a t ion s , were you a n i n vitee of Texas 2 5 East e r n 7 When -- I ' m n ot trying to get into waga and spinelli certified shorthand reporters 405 Northfield Avenue West Orange, N. J. 07052 201-731-9666 WATER_PCB-SD0000062086 R. E. Hatton 3 14 1 legal t e r m i n o logy here. 2 MR. P U P K E : W i t h d r a w n 3 Q Did Texas Ea stern ask you to 4 visit the s t a t i o n ? 5 A. I can' t remember. 6 Q - Do you remem b e r i f y o u asked 7 Texas Eastern to visit th e s t a t i o n 7 8 MR. DAVIDSON : I f you remember. 9 A. I don' t remember. 1 0 Q - Was it your p r a c t ice in the late 1 1 1 9 5 0 s , early 1960s to ask comp a n i e s if you 1 2 could visit their operati ons? 13 A. Yes. 1 4 Q . W a s it also your policy to 1 5 accept invitati ons from compa nies who asked 1 6 you to visit t h eir facilities 7 17 A. Yes. 1 8 Q . Okay, Do you ever remember 1 9 meeting Mr. Fletche r at a compressor station 2 0 in the late 1950 th rough 1960 period 2 1 A. No, Idonot remember -- 2 2 Q . W h e n y ou were in the marketing 2 3 department, if any -- withdrawn, 2 4 When y ou were in the marketing 2 5 department were you marketing certain waga and spinelli certified shorthand reporters 405 Northfield Avenue West Orange, N. J. 07052 201-731-9666 WATER_PCB-SD0000062087 R. E. Hatton 3 15 1 products for Monsanto? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q Was one of those products - - at 4 the t i m e it was, I guess, MCS -15 3? 5 A. I t e s t i f i e d yesterday that I w a s n ' t 6 brought b a c k into the program until late 7 1 7 early '72 to do some work on the Turbino 1 . 8 Q. Is it your testimony that i n 9 1968 you -- approximately, you joined 1 0 you joined the marketing department at 1 1 Monsanto? 12 A. Yes. 1 3 Q . And did you at the time that you 1 4 first switched, in the few months or a year 1 5 subsequent to your switch to the marketing 1 6 department, did you have any duties with 1 7 regard to the marketing of fire-resistant 1 8 lubricants to Texas Eastern? 19 A. No. 2 0 Q. At any point when you were in 2 1 the marketing department, did you have 2 2 responsibility or duties relating to the sale 2 3 of fire-resistant lubricants to Texas 2 4 Eastern? Beyond what you've testified at in 2 5 1970 or -- what was it -- waga and spinelli certified shorthand reporters 405 IMorthfield Avenue West Orange, N. J. 07052 201-731-9666 WATER_PCB-SD0000062088 R . E . Hatton 3 16 1 MR. DAVIDSON : '71? 2 A. Late '71, early '72. 3 Q -- that you were brought back 4 i n t o the -- 5 A. No . 6 7 A. Q Okay. Not d i r e c t . 8 Q Was t h e r e an employee in the 9 m a r k e ting d e partment who was responsi b 1 e for 1 0 t h e m arketin g of fire -res istant lubri cants t- 1 1 T e x a s Easter n in the peri od 19 -- fr o m 19 6 8 1 2 t h r o u g h, say , 1972? 13 A. To t h e best of m y recollection , i t 1 4 w o u 1 d, be D . F . Smith . 1 5 Q Okay. Do you know where M r . 1 6 S m ith is today? 17 A. Retired . 1 8 Q Have you had any recent contact 1 9 w i t h Mr, S mi th ? 20 A. I h a v e not. 2 1 Q . Do you know where Mr. S m ith 2 2 r e tii' e d to? 23 A . No . 2 4 Q . Can you tell me J . G . 2 5 Frederiksen's role, if any, in the sale of, waga and spinelli certified shorthand reporters 405 Northfield Avenue West Orange, N. J, 07052 201-731-9666 WATER_PCB-SD0000062089 R. E. Hatton 3 17 1 o r any marketing o f fire -resistant lubricant 2 t o Texas Eastern i n the. say, 1968 to 1972 3 period? 4 A. John Frederiksen at that time was, I 5 believe, working out of the -- out of an 6 office in Shreveport. I'm not sure of t h a t 7 entire time period, but at leas t part o f that 8 time. 9 His function was as a field 1 0 salesman covering a numerous range of 1 1 products, one of which would have been 1 2 Turbinol. And he was also the primary 1 3 responsible -- primary person responsible 1 4 for contact with Texas Eastern. Routine 1 5 contacts . 1 6 Q. Do you know where Mr. 1 7 Frederiksen is today? 1 8 A. No, I do not. 1 9 Q. Do you know if he is still an 2 0 employee of Monsanto? 2 1 A. No. I have not seen him for some 2 2 period. 2 3 Q. Do you know if he lived in 2 4 Shreveport when -- at the time that he 2 5 worked there? waga and spinelli certified shorthand reporters 405 Northfield Avenue West Orange, N. J. 07052 201-731-9666 WATER PCB-SD0000062090 R. E, Hatton 3 18 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. You testified yesterday that 3 C.L. Bradford had changed companies before 4 you retired. 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. Do you know which company he 7 went to? 8 A. I do not remember the specific name. 9 It was in the paper industry somewhere. 1 0 Q. Do you know where the company ' 1 1 was located? 1 2 A. Generally the west coast. 1 3 Q. Have you had any contact with 1 4 Mr. Bradford since your retirement? 15 A. No. 1 6 Q. Can you give me an approximate 1 7 age for Mr. Bradford presently? If he would 1 8 be a 115, it's -- 1 9 MR. DAVIDSON: Tell you 2 0 something, wouldn't it? 2 1 A. He's younger than I am. 2 2 Q . Okay. 2 3 A. I think that's as good an answer that 2 4 I can give you. 2 5 Q. If he was 75 in 1960, we can waga and spinelli certified shorthand reporters 405 Northfield Avenue West Orange, N. J. 07052 201-731-9666 WATER PCB-SD0000062091 R. E. Hatton 3 19 1 make an assumption as to his whereabouts. 2 MR. HART: I don't know why 3 everybody laughs at that. I find that kind 4 of depressing. 5 THE WITNESS: Not nearly as much 6 as I do. 7 M R . DAVIDSON: That ' s okay. 8 Roger Willard S c ott is goi n g to get to call 9 your name one o f these day s . 1 0 THE WITNESS : I hope s o . 1 1 Q - M r . Hatton, w o u1d you please 1 2 take a look at what's been marked as Hatton 1 3 Exhibit 5? 14 A Five? Yes. 1 5 Q. Did you create this document at 1 6 about the time noted on the first page, which 1 7 is January 14th, 1972? 1 8 A, The date of authorship, official 1 9 authorship is February the 8th, as of the top 2 0 of the document. 2 1 Q. Okay. Can you tell me who J.F. 2 2 Herber is? 2 3 A. Is today? Or was then? 2 4 Q . I assume he's both -- 2 5 MR. DAVIDSON: It's the same waga and spinelli certified shorthand reporters 405 Northfield Avenue West Orange, N. J. 07052 201-731-9666 WATER PCB-SD0000062092 R. E. Hatton 320 1 guy . 2 Q - -- if he's -- 3 Well mean, when you're t a 1 k i 4 o s i t ions it makes a hell of a 5 nee. 6 M R . DAVIDSON : I u n d e r s t a 7 Q Okay. Can you tell me w h 8 n w a s at the time of this d o c u m 9 He w as a group leader i n resear 1 0 Q D o you know if he i s pres 1 1 an employee of Monsanto? 12 A. He i s . 1 3 Q. And do you know what his present 1 4 position is with Monsanto? 1 5 A. Still in the research department, but 1 6 I do not know his title. 1 7 Q . Do you have any understanding as 1 8 to why Mr. Herber would have been a cc on 1 9 this document? 2 0 A. At that time he was in charge of 2 1 research on fluids to a certain extent. And 2 2 as -- as a group leader in research he was 2 3 the one who covered -- 2 4 Q. Was that -- 2 5 A. -- some aspects of fluids. waga and spinelli certified shorthand reporters 405 Northfield Avenue West Orange, N, J. 07052 201-731-9666 WATER PCB-SD0000062093 R. E. Hatton -------------- 1 321 I 1 Q. Was Turbinol 153 one of the 2 fluids that he was involved with, to the best 3 of your knowledge? 4 A. To the best of my memory. 5 Q . How about Mr. L.R. Stark? I'm 6 assuming he's a Mr. 7 A. L.R. Stark was also a group leader in 8 research. 9 Q. L.R. Stark. 1 0 A. At that time his area was also fluids', 1 1 and he was more concerned with the 1 2 performance type of properties, where John 1 3 Herber was concerned with the chemical. 1 4 Q Do you know if Mr. Stark is 1 5 pres e n t 1 y an employee o f Monsanto? 16 A. My most recent i n formation would 1 7 i n d i cate he i s . 1 8 Q . Do you know if he is still 1 9 the research department at Monsanto? 2 0 A. Yes. 2 1 Q. W.R. Richard, do you know what 2 2 his title was at about the time of this? 2 3 A. Bill Richard was the boss of these 2 4 previous two people. 2 5 Q. Did he have a title? waga and spinelli certified shorthand reporters 405 Northfield Avenue West Orange, N. J. 07052 201-731-9666 WATER_PCB-SD0000062094 R. E. Hatton 322 1 A. I think he was an assistant research 2 director at this point. 3 Q4 employee - - And do you 1know if he's still an 5 A. He ' s retired. 6 Q -- of Monsa nto? 7 where h e retired to? Do you know 8 A. S t . Louis area so m e w h e r e . 9 10 A. Q D.W. Stegen He would have bee n John Frederiksen 1 s' 1 1 superior in the field. 12 Q1 3 departmen t ? And he was in the marketing 14 A. M a rketing departm ent. And -- 1 5 Q . Do you know if he's still an 1 6 employee of Monsanto? 17 A. I do not. 1 8 Q Was he an e mployee of Monsanto 1 9 when you left -- when y ou retired, to the 2 0 best of your knowledge? 21 A. Oh , yes. 2 2 Q > Do you know what H . R . Ford ' s 2 3 posit ion was at about th e time o f this memo? 24 A . He was another le v e 1 up i n the f i e 1 d 2 5 organization. waga and spinelli certified shorthand reporters 405 Northfield Avenue West Orange, N. J. 07052 201-731-9666 WATER_PCB-SD0000062095 R. E . Hatton 323 1 And I believe at this time the 2 country was broken down into areas, and he 3 would have been the one working out of the 4 Atlanta . 5 Q. When you say field organization, 6 do you mean, is that -- 7 A. Marketing. 8 Q. -- is that a part of marketing? 9 A. -- marketing -- yeah. Well, we 1 0 talked about the position -- ' 1 1 Q . Right? 1 2 A. -- of field salesman. 1 3 Q. Do you know if he's still an 1 4 employee of Monsanto? 1 5 A. I have no information. 1 6 Q D o you know what P.L. Slayton ' s 1 7 po sition was a t about the time of this memo? 18 A. S i m i 1 a r to Ford's, but I believe 1 9 w o rking out o f either the New York office o r 2 0 s o me office up in that area. 2 1 Q D 0 you have an understanding a s 2 2 t o why he w a s a c c on t h i s document? 23 A . No. 2 4 Q Do you know if he is presently 2 5 an employee? waga and spinelli certified shorthand reporters 405 Northfield Avenue West Orange, N. J. 07052 201-731-9666 WATER PCB-SD0000062096 R. E. Hatton 324 1 A. Again, I do not know. 2 Q. Mr. D.R. Hansen? 3 A. Same position, but on the west coast 4 Q . And do you know i f he is 5 presently a n employee of Monsa n t o ? 6 A. I ' m f airly sure he's re t i red. 7 Q E.L. Shimley, do y o u know what 8 his p o sit ion was at about the t i me of this 9 memo? 10 A. H e w a s in the marketing d epartment, ' 1 1 but I d o not know his -- do n o t remember his 1 2 specif i c p o s i t i o n . 1 3 Q Do you know if he ' s presently an 1 4 employee of Monsanto? 15 A. No. 1 6 Q. You don't 17 A I do not -- 1 8 Q. -- know or - 1 9 A. -- know whether he is or not. 2 0 Q . Okay. 2 1 On the second page, first full 2 2 paragraph, the first sentence says "The 2 3 environmental situation with the PCB 2 4 containing Turbinol 153 was discussed in 2 5 detail . " waga and spinelli certified shorthand reporters 405 Northfield Avenue West Orange, N. J. 07052 201-731-9666 WATER_PCB-SD0000062097 R. E. Hatton 325 1 Now, you were asked yesterday 2 about this particular sentence. My question 3 is did you, yourself, say anything at this 4 meeting regarding the environmental 5 situation? 6 MR. DAVIDSON: To the best of 7 your recollection. 8 A. To the best of my recollection this 9 area was handled by Larry Bradford. 1 0 Q. And do you remember the gist of- 1 1 what Mr. Bradford said about the 1 2 environmental situation? 1 3 A. I do not recollect what was said at 1 4 this meeting. 1 5 Q D o you r e c a 11 anyone from Texas 1 6 Eastern rai sing any q u e s tions regarding the 1 7 environmental s ituation? 18 A. Ido not 1 9 Q D o you reca 11 if Walter Woods 2 0 spoke at that meeting? 21 A. No, I do not reca 1 1 . 22 Q 2 3 that list. B . R . P u r g i t orio is listed on Did you have any contact with Mr. 2 4 Purgitorio when you had dealings with Texas 2 5 Eastern? waga and spinelli certified shorthand reporters 405 Northfield Avenue West Orange, N. J. 07052 201-731-9666 WATER_PCB-SD0000062098 R. E. Hatton 326 1 MR. DAVIDSON: You mean dealings 2 other than the fact that he appears on this 3 document . 4 MR. PUPKE: Other than this 5 particular meeting. 6 A. I do not remember dealings other than 7 the meeting. 8 9 A. Q Ye s . I s the same true for Mr. Sloan? 1 0 Q . I s the same true for Jack Simon? 11 A. Ye s . 1 2 Q And did you have any other 1 3 deal i n g s beyond this meeting with J . Y . 1 4 Briggs? 15 A. N o t that I remember. 1 6 Q . D o you know what Mr. B r i g g ' s 1 7 p o s i t i o n was at Texas Eastern? 18 A. 19 No Q Had you ever met him prior to 2 0 this meet i n g ? 21 A. I do not remember. 2 2 M R . PUPKE: I'd like t o 2 3 introduce this Exhibit. 2 4 (Letter to Ted Harrison from C. 2 5 Larry Bradford, dated January 7, 1972 Bates waga and spinelli certified shorthand reporters 405 Northfield Avenue West Orange, N. J. 07052 201-731-9666 WATER PCB-SD0000062099 R. E. Hatton - PROTECTED 327 1 No. 000801028 is marked Hatton-22 for 2 identification . ) 3 MR. PUPKE: Introducing as 4 Exhibit 22, a January 7, 1972 document. The 5 Monsanto -- it appears to be from Texas 6 Eastern's file, but on a Monsanto letterhead, 7 to Mr. Ted Harrison, purchasing agent, Texas 8 Eastern Transmission Corp. from C. Larry 9 Bradford. 10 This is protected. - 1 1 It bears Bates number 1 2 000801028. 1 3 MR. HART: Bob, I'm going to 1 4 state on the record that I don't see any 1 5 reason to treat this as protected material, 1 6 because then a virtually identical copy of 1 7 this document was produced by Monsanto. 1 8 And Counsel, if you don't 1 9 object, at some appropriate time maybe we 2 0 could just substitute -- 2 1 MR. PUPKE: That's fine. Maybe 2 2 if you have that document, you can just give 2 3 the Bates number, and we can treat them as 2 4 equal . 2 5 MR. HART: Bates number 000796, waga and spinelli certified shorthand reporters 405 Northfield Avenue West Orange, N. J. 07052 201-731-9666 WATER_PCB-SD0000062100 R. E. Hatton - PROTECTED 3 28 1 I happen to have a duplicate for 2 the official record. Why don't we just go 3 ahead and do that. 4 The two differences are, the 5 Monsanto produced version was not signed and 6 does nothave theparenthetical marginal 7 handwritingthat's on the Texas Eastern 8 version 9 (A discussion takes place off 1 0 the record.) 1 1 MR. HART: And it's on the 1 2 letterhead, and it has blind carbon copies. 1 3 MR. DAVIDSON: Can we take a 1 4 quick, five minute break? 1 5 MR . PUPKE : Sure . 1 6 (There is a recess.) 1 7 (Luncheon Recess . ) 1 8 (Afternoon Session.) 1 9 CONTINUED CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. PUPKE: 2 0 MR. PUPKE; We're back on the 2 1 record. 2 2 Q. Dr. Hatton I'm going to ask 2 3 about that document a little later. 24 A . Okay. 2 5 Q. I want to go back for a minute waga and spinelli certified shorthand reporters 405 Northfield Avenue West Orange, N. J. 07052 201-731-9666 WATER PCB-SD0000062101 R . E. Hatton 3 29 1 In the Exh ibit marked as Hatton 2 19 , you just need that out for your reference 3 t o the page marked U000 0 3 1. 4 A. Yes. 5 Q You stated earlier in your 6 testimony that it was nomenclature in the 7 industry, that the term chlorinated phosphate 8 ester was nomenclature in the industry. 9 A. Yes. 1 0 Q . Do you have an understanding of' 1 1 what this nomenclature meant in the industry? 1 2 MR. HART: Counsel, are you now 1 3 asking him about the use of the term in the 1 4 Exhibit that you've called his attention to? 1 5 MR. PUPKE: No. No, I just 1 6 called his attention to it because this is an 1 7 area that we went into at the time that this 1 8 particular document was being questioned 1 9 about. I pulled this out. 2 0 Q. Just for your reference. There 2 1 is no -- and the question is, as it stands. 2 2 A. Phosphate ester based and chlorinated 2 3 phosphate ester are -- were two different 2 4 terms to refer to the same group of 2 5 materials . waga and spinelli certified shorthand reporters 405 Northfield Avenue West Orange, N. J. 07052 201-731-9666 WATER_PCB-SD0000062102 1 E . Hatton 330 1 Q. Was it understood in the 2 industry at the time of this article, June, 3 1960 that chlorinated phosphate ester 4 included or -- included a phosphate ester 5 with a chlorinated biphenyl? 6 MR. HART: Objection to form. 7 Q. Included. 8 MR. HART: You're asking about 9 the understanding in the industry. If you 1 0 want to ask him about the industry's use of 1 1 nomenclature, that's different than the 1 2 pending question. 1 3 MR. PUPKE: That's a fair 1 4 objection. 1 5 Q. Do you have an understanding of 1 6 what the industry's understanding of the 1 7 nomenclature; chlorinated phosphate ester was 1 8 at about the time of this article? 1 9 (A discussion takes place off 2 0 the record between the witness and his 2 1 attorney.) 2 2 A. It was generally a term -- the term 2 3 used was more general than polychlorinated 2 4 biphenyl. 2 5 That term was not broadly used waga and spinelli certified shorthand reporters 405 Northfield Avenue West Orange, N. J. 07052 201-731-9666 WATER PCB-SD0000062103 E . Hatton 331 1 back in that era. And they would have called 2 it a polychlorinated -- or chlor i n a t e d 3 hydrocarbon as a general term. 4 Q And would that - -- 5 A. 6 And t h e p h o s p h a t e ester M R . HART : Wait j u s t a minute, 7 Could I have that answer back. P 1 ease. 8 (The last answer i s read back by 9 the reporter.) 1 0 Q. Now, when you mentioned the term 1 1 chlorinated hydrocarbon, would that term 1 2 encompass the -- a chlorinated biphenyl? 1 3 MR. HART: Objection to form. 1 4 A. Chlorinated -- 1 5 Q. At the time -- 1 6 A. Achlorinated --; 1 7 Q. Let me reask that question, if 1 8 you don't mind. I'll give you a time frame 1 9 for it. 2 0 At the time that this article 2 1 was written in 1960. 2 2 A. Chlorinated hydrocarbon -- 2 3 MR. HART: Same objection. 2 4 A. -- would cover chlorinated biphenyls, 2 5 chlorinated benzine, chlorinated parafins. waga and spinelli certified shorthand reporters 405 Northfield Avenue West Orange, N. J. 07052 201-731-9666 WATER E . Hatton 332 1 Q. And at the time of this article 2 in 1960, did you have knowledge as to how 3 many companies were making achlorinated 4 phosphate ester for the market? 5 Q. I'll reask -- 6 A. There was -- 7 Q --yes. 8 A. -- there was one, Monsanto. I believe 9 that some of the oil companies at that time 1 0 were developing such products. - 1 1 Q. Is Humble Oil one of those 1 2 companies that you're referring to? 1 3 A. Specifically I don't remember which 1 4 companies. 1 5 Q. Was it known in the industry 1 6 that Monsanto was either producing, or had a 1 7 product, a chlorinated phosphate ester -- 18 MR. HART: Objection. 1 9 Q. -- product? 2 0 MR. HART: Objection to form. 2 1 Q. At the time of this article, 22 1960? 2 3 A. We did our best to let them know. 2 4 Q . Did you also let the people in 2 5 the industry know that your chlorinated waga and spinelli certified shorthand reporters 405 Northfield Avenue West Orange, N. J, 07052 201-731-9666 WATER PCB-SD0000062105 R. E. Hatton 333 1 phosphate ester contained A r o c 1 o r s -- 2 A. At that time -- 3 MR. DAVIDSON : D o you mean 4 specifica 11y did we tell them the word. 5 "Aroclor"? 6 MR. PUPKE : Just generally -- 7 just generally if -- 8 Q . If you, to use your term, did 9 your best to let them know that Monsanto's 1 0 chlorinated phosphate ester contained 1 1 Aroclor. 12 A. N o , I d i d not. That was not the 1 3 mean i n g of m y a n s w e r . 1 4 My answer was that we did our 1 5 best to let them know that we had products 1 6 which fell into thatclass, such as the 1 7 Pydrauls and OS-81 and so on. That's what I 1 8 meant tostate. 1 9 Q. Is OS-81 - 2 0 A. And we -- yes. 2 1 Q . OS-81 - 2 2 A. Yes. 2 3 Q. -- one of the those materials? 24 A Yes. 2 5 Q . I'm sorry, I didn't mean to cut waga and spinelli certified shorthand reporters 405 Northfield Avenue West Orange, N. J. 07052 201-731-9666 WATER PCB-SD0000062106 R. E. Hatton 334 1 you off. 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. When you let it be known that 4 Monsanto had OS-81 available for the market, 5 as part of the letting people know, or 6 letting prospective customers know of OS-81, 7 did Monsanto let the prospective customers 8 know that OS-81 contained Aroclor? 9 A. In product bulletins and other 1 0 publications of the company we referred to it 1 1 as a phosphate ester based material. And we 1 2 did not further specify composition. 1 3 Q. Do you have any recall of any 1 4 prospective customerasking further the 1 5 contents of the Monsanto chlorinated 1 6 phosphate ester? 1 7 A. I have no specific instance that I can 1 8 cite. 1 9 Q D o you recall ev er telling 2 0 a t Texas E a s tern that there was 2 1 Aroclor contained in Monsanto's chlorinated 2 2 phosphate ester? 2 3 A. I cannot remember a specific 2 4 conversation. 2 5 Q Do you remember generally waga and spinelli certified shorthand reporters 405 Northfield Avenue West Orange, N. J. 07052 201-731-9666 WATER PCB-SD0000062107 R . E. Hatton 335 1 letting Texas Eastern know of the content of 2 OS-81 that it contained an Aroclor? 3 MR. HART: Objection. 4 A, I do not have a specific memory -- 5 Q. My question is -- 6 A. -- on that point. 7 Q. My question asked if you had a 8 general recollection of, not any specific 9 conversations, but a general recollection of 1 0 advising, or telling, I should say, anyone at 1 1 Texas Eastern about the constituents of -- 1 2 A. The answer is no, then. 1 3 Q . Do you have an understanding of 1 4 whether it was known in the industry, if you 1 5 will, that Monsanto's product contained 1 6 Aroclor? 1 7 MR. HART: Objection. 1 8 Q. At about 1960. 1 9 MR. HART: Objection. 2 0 A. By industry, you mean -- 2 1 Q . Well, I'm trying to adopt your 2 2 term, your use of the term industry, because 2 3 earlier today you testified that it was 2 4 nomenclature within the industry that 2 5 chlorinated phosphate ester was nomenclature waga and spinelli certified shorthand reporters 405 Northfield Avenue West Orange, N. J. 07052 201-731-9666 WATER_PCB-SD0000062108 R. E. Hatton 3 36 1 in the industry. 2 And I did ask you to define the 3 industry, and I believe -- 4 A. All right. 5 Q. -- we never really clarified 6 that point. 7 What was the industry you 8 referred to earlier? 9 MR. HART: I'm going to object. 1 0 Clearly the notion of the industry in general 1 1 is going to be different, depending on 1 2 context. And now, backtracking -- 13 MR. PUPKE: Laird - 1 4 MR. HART: -- to a different 1 5 set of -- 1 6 MR. PUPKE: I don't mean to be 1 7 difficult. We have limited time left. 1 8 MR. HART: No, we don't have 1 9 limited time left. This deposition will 2 0 continue from day-to-day until completed. 21 MR. PUPKE: Okay. You have an 2 2 objection to form. 2 3 I would please ask if you would 2 4 make the objection to form, and let us move 25 on . waga and spinelli certified shorthand reporters 405 Northfield Avenue West Orange, N. J. 07052 201-731-9666 WATER PCB-SD0000062109 R. E. Hatton 337 1 A. If we limit the term used, the term 2 "industry" as used here to fluid suppliers, 3 and -- that's fire-resistant fluid 4 suppliers, end users and related groups, it 5 was common knowledge, but not necessarily 6 published knowledge. 7 Q. It was common -- what was 8 common knowledge? 9 A. The fact that it contained the 1 0 Aroc 1 or . 1 1 Q . And does the i ndustry as you 1 2 just defined it, include Te xas Eastern? 1 3 M R . HART : Ob j e c t i o n . 1 4 A. They were a fire-res istant fluid user 1 5 potential . 1 6 Q I want t o just touch on an area 1 7 been touched o n now twice before . 1 8 But, t h i s is my - - my questions 1 9 are, you have stated that the label that was 2 0 on the fire resistant lubricant contained 2 1 sort of a standard statement. 2 2 I'm not trying to characterize 2 3 your testimony, I'm just trying to refresh 2 4 your recollection as to what was said. 2 5 Regarding the nature of the waga and spinelli certified shorthand reporters 405 Northfield Avenue West Orange, N. J. 07052 201-731-9666 WATER PCB-SD0000062110 R. E. Hatton 338 1 material, do you recall anything else that 2 was on the label for Monsanto's 3 fire-resistant lubricant, let's say, the 4 Turbinol? 5 MR. HART: Objection. 6 MR. DAVIDSON: Well, I - 7 A. What time frame are you talking about 8 again? 9 Q. Turbinol 153, which would be, 1 0 say, from the time they changed the -- from' 1 1 the time Monsanto changed the name from 1 2 MCS-153 to Turbinol 153. 1 3 MR. DAVIDSON: He's already 1 4 testified that he didn't necessarily see 1 5 drums with labels on them within the course 1 6 and scope of his work. And that his 1 7 understanding was that all these had the 1 8 chlorinated material warning information on 1 9 them. 2 0 And such copies of labels as 2 1 existed have been produced to the parties. 2 2 If you want to show him one and ask him about 2 3 it, that's fine. 24 MR. PUPKE: I don't believe they 2 5 have been produced to the carriers. waga and spinelli certified shorthand reporters 405 Northfield Avenue West Orange, N. J. 07052 201-731-9666 WATER PCB-SD0000062111 E. Hatton 339 1 M R . DAVIDSON Yes, they have. 2 MR . PUPKE : ' v e made a 3 concerted search for them 4 M R . KRAUSS: They have, 5 MR . PUPKE : stand corrected. 6 if they are found 7 M R . DAVIDSON Yes, they have 8 been. 9 MR. KRAUSS I'll see if I can 1 0 find it. 1 1 MR. HOOK: Off the record. 1 2 (A discussion takes place off 1 3 the record.) 1 4 Q. Dr. Hatton, we spoke earlier 1 5 about the specific gravity of the Monsanto 1 6 products. Do you know if Turbinol 153 was 1 7 soluble in water? 1 8 MR. HART: Objection. 1 9 A. One of the properties determined would 2 0 have -- that would -- that would have been 2 1 one of the properties that would have b e e n 2 2 examined and I do not have the data her e . 2 3 Q. Do you have any general 2 4 recollection as to whether Turbinol 153 was 2 5 soluble in water? waga and spinelli certified shorthand reporters 405 Northfield Avenue West Orange, N, J. 07052 201-731-9666 WATER PCB-SD0000062112 Hatton 340 1 MR. HART: Objection. 2 A. Extremely limited solubility. 3 Q. When you say extremely limited, 4 what do you mean? 5 A. Nearly all things are soluble t o some 6 d e g r ee in each other. And depending o n your 7 a b i 1 ity to measure, you can get down t o very 8 low levels . 9 I would be talking, probably in 1 0 thelevels of parts per thousand. ' 1 1 Q. Now, you testified that in late 1 2 1971, early 1972, you were asked to become 1 3 involved again with the Monsanto product for 1 4 Texas Eastern. And I believe it's your 1 5 testimony yesterday, and please correct me, 1 6 that Monsanto had a department set up to -- a 1 7 department or departments set up to 1 8 facilitate the withdrawal of products 1 9 containing polychlorinated biphenyls from the 2 0 market. Is that a fair statement? 2 1 MR. DAVIDSON: I don't believe 2 2 hereferred to it as a department. 2 3 A. I don't -- 2 4 MR. PUPKE: Okay. 2 5 MR. DAVIDSON: I think he said waga and spinelli certified shorthand reporters 405 Northfield Avenue West Orange, N. J. 07052 201-731-9666 WATER PCB-SD0000062113 I R. E. Hatton 341 1 it was a group of people. 2 A. It was -- yeah. A department in our 3 definition is a pretty formal thing -- 4 Q . Okay. 5 A. -- and this was a group at that 6 point. 7 Q. Did this group have a name? 8 Or did you refer to it as the 9 PCB group, or something of that sort? 1 0 MR. DAVIDSON: At what point in' 1 1 time? 1 2 MR. PUPKE: At about the time of 1 3 its creation. 1 4 Q. At about January, 1972. How is 1 5 that? 1 6 MR. HART: Well, which one do 1 7 you want? 1 8 MR. PUPKE: At about January, 1 9 1 9 7 2. 2 0 (A discussion takes place off 2 1 the record between the witness and his 2 2 attorney.) 2 3 A. I do not remember a specific title to 2 4 the group. We generally referred to it as 2 5 Papageorge's group. waga and spinelli certified shorthand reporters 405 Northfield Avenue West Orange, N. J. 07052 201-731-9666 WATER PCB-SD0000062114 R. E. Hatton - PROTECTED 342 1 Q. That's? 2 A. Papageorge being a last name., 3 Q. What was Mr. Papageorge's first 4 name? 5 MR. HART: Bill, or Willy. 6 A. Bill. 7 Q. And was that group within a 8 department at Monsanto? 9 A. I am not aware of the organizational 1 0 structure. ' 1 1 Q. Do you know who was -- besides 1 2 Mr. Papageorge, was in that group? 1 3 A. I do not remember. 1 4 Q. Were you in that group? 15 A. No . 1 6 Q. Do you know what -- if that 1 7 group had any duties beyond the removal of 1 8 products containing polychlorinated biphenyls 1 9 from the market? 2 0 A. I think -- 2 1 Q At about 1972 , January 22 A I believe that was h is functi on? 2 3 M R . PUPKE ; I want to i ntroduce 2 4 this. 2 5 Q I'm going to go back to that waga and spinelli certified shorthand reporters 405 Northfield Avenue West Orange, N. J. 07052 201-731-9666 WATER PCB-SD0000062115 R. E. Hatton - PROTECTED 343 1 document . 2 MR. PUPKE: Off the record. 3 (Memo entitled, "Dear Sir" from 4 Donald A. Olson, dated February 18, 1970, 5 Bates Nos. 001090265 through 001090267 is 6 Marked Hatton-23 for identification.) 7 Q. Dr. Hatton, let me show you 8 what's been marked as Hatton Exhibit 23, 9 which is a three page document bearing the 1 0 date February 18, 1970 on the top of the 1 1 firstpage. 1 2 The document bears in the lower 1 3 right-hand corner Bates stamp numbers 1 4 001090268, 266 and 267. 1 5 MR. PUPKE: It appears that the 1 6 second page , 001090266 is out of order, but 1 7 this is the way it was produced to us. 1 8 This is, by the way, 1 9 confidentia 1, Laird. 2 0 M R . H ART : Protected. 2 1 M R . PUPKE : Protected material 2 2 M R . HART: Off the record. 2 3 (A discuss ion takes place off 2 4 the record. 2 5 Q < D r . Hatton , I ask if you would waga and spinelli certified shorthand reporters 405 Northfield Avenue West Orange, N. J. 07052 201-731-9666 WATER PCB-SD0000062116 R. E. Hatton - PROTECTED 344 1 review that document, please -- 2 A. Minus the middle page? 3 Q. Well, you can look at the middle 4 page, as well. 5 A. (The witness reads thedocument.) 6 Q. Have you reviewed the documents. 7 Dr.Hatton? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. The first paragraph -- well, 1 0 let me ask you first if you've ever seen this 1 1 document prior to today, and with the 1 2 exception of review by Counsel, if in fact 1 3 this was one of the documents reviewed with 1 4 Counsel. 1 5 M R . PUPKE : I f this was o n e o f 1 6 the doc uments rev i e w e d by C o u n s e 1 , w e ' r e 1 7 excludi ng that vi e w i n g . R e viewed by y o u with 1 8 Counsel, I should say. 1 9 MR. DAVIDSON: I don't believe 2 0 it was. 2 1 MR. PUPKE: Okay. 22 Q 2 3 today? Have you seen this prior to 24 A . Yes 2 5 Q Do you recall when it was that waga and spinelli certified shorthand reporters 405 Northfield Avenue West Orange, N. J. 07052 201-731-9666 WATER PCB-SD0000062117 R. E. Hatton - PROTECTED 345 1 you first saw this document? 2 A. Copiesof this document including the 3 attachment of the article were circulated 4 broadly throughout the company. 5 Q. Do you know who they were 6 circulated by? The letter and article? Was 7 it the salesdepartment or Don Olson? 8 A. Ido not know who sp o n s o r e d the 9 circulation., But I ---- it was made certain 1 0 that all of us who were inv o 1 v e d in fluids 1 1 in Aroclors in any way -- 12 13 A. Q D O you - - - were well notified. 1 4 Q I ' m sorry? 1 5 M R . HART: I think you should 1 6 let the witness finish. 1 7 MR. PUPKE: I think you're 1 8 right 1 9 Q I didn't mean to step on your 2 0 answer. 2 1 A. Yes. 2 2 Q. Do you recall whether it was one 2 3 or several articles that were attached to 2 4 this? 2 5 A. No, I do not specifically, except for waga and spinelli certified shorthand reporters 405 Northfield Avenue West Orange, N. J. 07052 201-731-9666 WATER PCB-SD0000062118 R. E. Hatton - PROTECTED 3 46 1 what it says here. 2 Q. Do you have any recollection of 3 which magazine the article or articles came 4 from? 5 11 says Chemi cal Week. 6 Q Do you have any knowledge as to 7 whether there were any additional articles 8 attached from other magazines - 9 A. No. 1 0 Q. -- than Chemical Week? - 11 A. No. 1 2 Q. Do you know who wrote the 1 3 article in Chemical Week that was attached -- 14 1 5 Q to this? 16 A. No 1 7 Q. The first paragraph says 1 8 "Recently several newspaper and magaz i n e 1 9 articles have been published indicati n g that 2 0 polychlorinated biphenyls (PCBs) have been 2 1 discovered at some points in some mar i n e , 2 2 aquatic and wild life environments, The 2 3 quantities detected are said to be in the 2 4 parts per million and parts per billi o n 2 5 categories." waga and spinelli certified shorthand reporters 405 Northfield Avenue West Orange, N. J. 07052 201-731-9666 WATER PCB-SD0000062119 R. E. Hatton - PROTECTED 347 1 Do you have an understanding as 2 to what newspaper and magazine articles Mr. 3 Olson was referring to in this letter? 4 A. No, I do not know the specific 5 articles . 6 Q Did you have an understanding at 7 the time you received this letter what the 8 articles -- which articles he was referring 9 to? 1 0 MR. DAVIDSON: If you remember.' 11 A I don't remember the specific 1 2 articles. 1 3 Q . The question was , do you have a n 1 4 understand ing of whether you knew which 1 5 articles h e was referring t o at the time you 1 6 first revi ewed this letter in 1 9 7 0 ? 17 A. Yes 1 8 Q Do you have any recollection o f 1 9 how many articles he was referring to in this 2 0 particular -- 21 A. No . 2 2 Q. -- paragraph? 23 A. No. 2 4 Q . You said that this was 2 5 circulated throughout the company, with waga and spinelli certified shorthand reporters 405 Northfield Avenue West Orange, N. J. 07052 201-731-9666 WATER PCB-SD0000062120 R. E. Hatton - PROTECTED 3 48 1 particular reference to the people involved 2 with fluids. 3 Was this something that would 4 have been sent to the sales department at 5 Monsanto? 6 A. It was generated by the sales 7 department. 8 Q. Okay. Do you have any 9 understanding as to whether the sales 1 0 department would have passed this on to 1 1 customers of Monsanto products containing 1 2 polychlorinated biphenyls? 1 3 MR. HART: Objection to form. 14 A. I w a s told by either Don Olson or some 1 5 deputy, th a t this has been sent to all 1 6 customers o f products -- 1 7 Q . And that -- 1 8 A. -- listed. 1 9 Q. And that would include Texas 2 0 Eastern . 2 1 MR. HART: Objection to form. 2 2 Find out what he's talking about, what 2 3 products were listed before you jump to 2 4 leading questioning. 2 5 MR. PUPKE: Make an objection to waga and spinelli certified shorthand reporters 405 Northfield Avenue West Orange, N. J. 07052 201-731-9666 WATER PCB-SD0000062121 R . E . Hatton - PROTECTED 3 49 1 form. and no speeches. 2 A. The p aragraph shown as numb e r one here 3 is a list of products. 4 5 A. Q And the users of t h e s e - F u r t h er, the list is e x p a n d e d to those 6 that are included in the second paragraph. 7 The list is expanded to additional products. 8 Q. And you're saying that the users 9 or consumers o f these products 1 isted here 1 0 were, to the b e s t of your know 1 e dge, inform e'd 1 1 of this deve 1 o p m e n t ? 1 2 M R . DAVIDSON : N o I object. 1 3 He's told yo u t h at he -- that i t was 1 4 reported to him. He did n ' t ha v e anything to 1 5 do with this . H e ' s not - - 1 6 M R . P U P K E : That ' s why I 1 7 prefaced my q u e s tion with the t o the best of 1 8 your knowledge. 19 2 0 understand. MR . DAVIDSON : Well , I But h e ' s g i v e n you the best o f 2 1 his knowledge And you k e e p wan ting him t o 2 2 improve. 2 3 MR. PUEKE: I disagree. I'm 2 4 just trying to ask a question. 2 5 MR. HART: Let me state my waga and spinelli certified shorthand reporters 405 Northfield Avenue West Orange, N. J. 07052 201-731-9666 WATER_PCB-SD0000062122 R. E. Hatton - PROTECTED 350 1 objection -- . 2 MR. DAVIDSON: I mean, Texas 3 Eastern -- 4 MR. PUPKE: There is no question 5 pending -- 6 MR. DAVIDSON: Texas Eastern 7 produced this document to you. What's the 8 point? Obviously it got it. 9 MR. HART: I want to state my 1 0 objection. There is a pending que stion, and- 1 1 my objection is that your question refers to 1 2 the products "listed here. " 1 3 M R . PUPKE : Listed here b e i n g in 1 4 paragraph number one on page one 1 5 M R . HART: The firs t p a r a g r aph , 1 6 or the paragraph at the bottom. which is 1 7 numbered one? 1 8 MR. PUPKE: The paragraph 1 9 numbered one. 2 0 A. Plus, I said. 2 1 Q . Plus. 2 2 A. Plus those in the second paragraph, 2 3 which includes products different than in the 2 4 number one. 2 5 MR. HART: Now -- all right. waga and spinelli certified shorthand reporters 405 Northfield Avenue West Orange, N. J. 07052 201-731-9666 WATER PCB-SD0000062123 R. E. Hatton 351 1 MR. PUPKE: I'm sorry. I'm 2 asking the questions here. 3 MR. HART: Well, I'm 4 objecting -- 5 Q. If you turn to page 2 -- 6 MR. HART: -- to the unclear 7 state of the record. 8 Q The s e c o n d page appear 9 the second page of a n o t h er letter. 1 0 unci ear as to the origin . Have you 1 1 this page before? 12 A. 11 does not raise any memory 1 3 MR. PUPKE: Mark this. 1 4 (Letter.entitled, "Dear Sir:" 1 5 from Walter E. Schalk, dated August 14, 1970, 1 6 Bates Nos. TEX 000695 through 000696 is 1 7 marked Hatton-24 for identification.) 1 8 MR. PUPKE: I'm marking for 1 9 Exhibit, a document dated August 14, 1970 2 0 which is on the letterhead of Monsanto. 2 1 It's from Texas Eastern's 2 2 files. Bearing Texas Eastern Bates stamp 2 3 number 000695 and 000696. 2 4 MR. HART: Counsel, the document 2 5 you've distributed is from Monsanto files and waga and spinelli certified shorthand reporters 405 IMorthfield Avenue West Orange, N. J. 07052 201-731-9666 WATER PCB-SD0000062124 R. E. Hatton 3 52 1 it bears a Monsanto Bates number. 2 MR. PUPKE : I'm sorry. 3 MR. KRAUSS: That's correct. 4 MR. PUPKE: That is correct? I 5 stand corrected. 6 It is a Monsanto Bates stamp 7 number. The numbers are still the same, 8 regardless of who it was from. 9 MR. HART: The number meaning 1 0 the Exhibit number? ' 11 MR. PUPKE: The page numbers, 1 2 Laird . 13 MR. HART: Well, the Bates 1 4 numbers are not the same. I don't know what 1 5 you just said on the record. 1 6 MR. PUPKE: I just said that the 1 7 numbers -- see these numbers down in the 1 8 lower right-hand corner? 19 MR. HART: All right. 2 0 MR. PUPKE: They remain the 2 1 same, regardless of who they were from. 2 2 Q. Have you reviewed the document. 2 3 Dr. Hatton? 2 4 A. Yes, I have. 2 5 MR. PUPKE: Off the record. waga and spinelli certified shorthand reporters 405 Northfield Avenue West Orange, N. J. 07052 201-731-9666 WATER PCB-SD0000062125 R. E. Hatton 353 1 (A discussion takes place off 2 the record, ) 3 Q . Have you ever seen this document 4 prior to today, with the exception of any 5 review you may have had of this document with 6 your Counsel? 7 A. I don'' t re member it. Don. 8 Q 9 Schalk is? Do y ou know who Mr. Walter 10 A. Yes. 1 1 Q Do y ou know if he is presently 1 2 with the company. Monsanto? 13 A. No, I do n o t . 1 4 Q. The document in the third 1 5 paragraph states. "It was recently brought 1 6 to our attention that the Food and Drug 1 7 Administration has apparently established 1 8 guidelines setting forth suggested maximum 1 9 levels of PCBs allowable in certain foods." 2 0 Are you familiar with any Food 2 1 and Drug Administration guidelines such as 2 2 those mentioned here at about the time of 2 3 this letter, August 14th, 1970? 2 4 MR. DAVIDSON: Don, this is the 25 area of toxicology. He's testified yesterday waga and spinelli certified shorthand reporters 405 Northfield Avenue West Orange, N. J. 07052 201-731-9666 WATER PCB-SD0000062126 R . E. Hatton 3 54 1 that that was not his area, it was dealt with 2 by the medical department, and that he's 3 already told you just now that he was not 4 familiar with this letter. 5 Q. Were you familiar with any 6 efforts by governmental agencies to regulate 7 PCBs at about the time of this letter, August 8 14th, 1970? 9 M R . DAVIDSON : I ' m g o i n g to 1 0 object again 1 1 M R . HART: So do I . 1 2 M R . DAVIDSON : Outs i d e the scope 1 3 of the agree d 1 imits of the d e p o s i t i o n . 1 4 M R . HART : My o b j e c t i on is based 1 5 on the form. 16 A. This i s general info r m a t i o n that may 1 7 have been in m y possession. but I can't say 1 8 when. 1 9 Q 0 n the second page o f this 2 0 document in the fourth full paragraph it 2 1 says, "During this withdrawal of PCBs from 2 2 the market, Monsanto has had in effect a 2 3 modified returned goods policy stating that 2 4 unopened containers less than one year old 2 5 could be returned for a full credit through waga and spinelli certified shorthand reporters 405 Northfield Avenue West Orange, N. J. 07052 201-731-9666 WATER_PCB-SD0000062127 R. E. Hatton 3 55 1 July 31, 1970. From August 1 through August 2 31, 1970 90 percent credit would be 3 allowed . " 4 Now, this doesn't deal with 5 Turbinol 153. But my question is, to the 6 best of your knowledge were these terms, or 7 were -- was a modified returned goods policy 8 offered to Texas Eastern at the time of the 9 withdrawal of Turbinol 153 from the market? 1 0 MR. DAVIDSON: You're talking - 1 1 about these modified terms? 1 2 M R . PUPKE : No , I'm just 1 3 M R . DAVIDSON: Any terms? 1 4 M R . PUPKE : -- a modified 1 5 returned goods policy. Not these specific 1 6 terms, but were there any -- was there a 1 7 returned goods policy offered to Texas 1 8 Eastern at the time of the withdrawal of 1 9 Turbinol 153 from the market. 2 0 MR. DAVIDSON: You know, I think 2 1 the questioning yesterday went into the 2 2 discussion -- 2 3 MR. PUPKE: Counsel, I beg your 2 4 indulgence to let me ask a question in this 2 5 area. I -- waga and spinelli certified shorthand reporters 405 Northfield Avenue West Orange, N. J, 07052 201-731-9666 WATER PCB-SD0000062128 R . E. Hatton 356 1 M R . DAVIDSON: I'm going t o 2 o b j e c t and t ell him not t o answer uni ess you 3 let me have m y say. 4 M R . PUPKE: I ' m sorry. I d idn ' t 5 mean to step o n your toe s . 6 M R . DAVIDSON : Well, I thin k 7 that yesterd ay the discu s s i on was had i n 8 conn e c t i o n w i t h question i n g about the J a n u a r y 9 14 m e e t i n g a nd subsequen t m eetings ab out what 1 0 the discussi o n s were a b o u t , what was g o i n g t'o 1 1 h a p p e n to t h e i r fluid. 1 2 And I belie v e the questi o n was 1 3 a s k e d , w h e t h e r or not t h ere was any r e t u r n 1 4 poll c y offer e d to them. S o , I object t o you 1 5 g o i n g back o v e r the same t e rritory in a 1 6 rath e r obtru s e manner. 1 7 M R . HART : I n this 1 8 c i r c urn stance - - 19 20 sorry . M R . PUPKE : M r . Davidson , I ' m 1st ated when I s t a rted quest ion i n g 2 1 that if I go o V e r any a r e a s that have 2 2 p r e v i o u s 1 y b e e n covered. th at I would beg 2 3 your indulge nee to let m e c o n t i n u e . The re is 2 4 a me t h o d to g o i ng into thes e areas. 2 5 N o w , I p e r s o n a 11y do not b e 1 i e v e waga and spinelli certified shorthand reporters 405 Northfield Avenue West Orange, N. J. 07052 201-731-9666 WATER PCB-SD0000062129 R. E. Hatton 3 57 1 that this question was asked yesterday. And 2 I would ask that you permit the witness to 3 answer the question. And he certainly was 4 not shown this document yesterday. 5 MR. DAVIDSON: Well, he has told 6 you that he d o e s n 't know anything about this 7 document., It's a year and-a-half prior t o 8 the time you're a sking about. And I don ' t 9 even know why you showed it to him. 1 0 I t s e e m s to me that certainly 1 1 you're not askin g the same exact question. 1 2 because you know it wo u 1 d draw objection. 1 3 But it's the same subj e c t area and it was 1 4 exhausted yesterday. 1 5 And you can answer, if you 1 6 know. 1 7 MR . HART : 1 8 A. I do not know. 1 9 MR. HART: Well, fine. 2 0 MR. P U P K E : Are you objecting to 2 1 form, Laird? 2 2 MR. HART: No, I'm not -- 2 3 MR . PUPKE : Please state your 2 4 objection -- 2 5 MR. HART: No. I want to state waga and spinelli certified shorthand reporters 405 Northfield Avenue West Orange, N. J. 07052 201-731-9666 WATER PCB-SD0000062130 R . E. Hatton 3 58 1 on the record that Texas Eastern does not 2 subscribe to the objection raised by 3 Monsanto's Counsel in this instance. 4 Q. If you have an answer. Dr. 5 Hatton . 6 A. i n d i c a t e d that I d o not know if this 7 agree m e n t was o f f e r e d t o Texas 8 or no t . 9 . Now, was. t o the best of your 1 0 knowledge, was Walter Schalk a member of ' 1 1 Mr. Papageorge's group? Is -- 1 2 A. The answer is no, to the best of my 1 3 knowledge. 1 4 Q. And you've -- would 1 5 Mr. Papageorge's group be responsible for - 1 6 were they responsible for the strategy for 1 7 withdrawal of products from the market? And 1 8 that would be the products which contained 1 9 polychlorinated biphenyls. 2 0 MR. DAVIDSON: Again, this is 2 1 going beyond the designated areas of the 2 2 deposition into areas that we told you he 2 3 doesn't know about. 2 4 MR. PUPKE : Well, I will pull 2 5 out the -- I hope that I have the -- waga and spinelli certified shorthand reporters 405 Northfield Avenue West Orange, N. J. 07052 201-731-9666 WATER PCB-SD0000062131 R. E. Hatton 359 1 MR. HART: Let's go off the 2 record. -- 3 M R . PUPKE: - - subpoena here. 4 (A discussion takes plac e off 5 the record.) 6 MR. PUPKE: In the interests of 7 moving along, I will spare the introduction 8 of the subpoena at t h is point. But, I'll 9 going on to the next document. which is -- 1 0 I'd like to introduce as an 1 1 Exhibit number 25, a September 16, 1971 -- 1 2 what appears to be a memo on the Monsanto 1 3 letterhead, in the upper lefthand corner, 1 4 stating the subject is "PCB Work - Status." 1 5 It bears Monsanto Bates number 1 6 TEX 000770 and 000771. 1 7 (Monsanto Memo, to W. Papageorge 1 8 from C.L. Bradford, dated September 16, 1971, 1 9 Bates Nos. TEX 000770 and 000771 is marked 2 0 Hatton-25 for identification.) 21 MR. PUPKE: This document is a 2 2 redacted version of a memo to Bill 2 3 Papageorge. 2 4 And Counsel for Mr. Hatton and 2 5 Monsanto has informed me that the redactions waga and spinelli certified shorthand reporters 405 IMorthfield Avenue West Orange, N. J. 07052 201-731-9666 WATER PCB-SD0000062132 R. E. Hatton 360 1 were made because the other material 2 contained was nonresponsive to the carrier's 3 requests . 4 Q . To the extent that you can tell 5 me. Dr. Hatton, have you seen this document 6 prior to today, with the exception of any 7 review you may have conducted with Counsel? 8 A. The carbon copy list indicates that I 9 did. 1 0 Q. Do you have any reason to 1 1 believe that you did not receive this 1 2 document at ab.out the date listed on the 1 3 first page, September 16, 1971? 14 A. No. 1 5 Q. On the second page it says, 1 6 "Number 4. On Turbinol 153, we do not plan 1 7 to approach Texas Eastern until we have 1 8 received approval from General Electric for 1 9 use of one of our new NC esters in gas 2 0 turbines . " 2 1 Do you know if this procedure 2 2 was followed with regard to Texas Eastern? 23 A . The -- 2 4 MR. DAVIDSON: May I -- 2 5 A. -- exhibits there indicate waga and spinelli certified shorthand reporters 405 Northfield Avenue West Orange, N. J. 07052 201-731-9666 WATER_PCB-SD0000062133 R. E. Hatton 361 1 MR. DAVIDSON: Wait a s e c o n d . 2 (A discussion takes place off 3 the record between the witness and his 4 attorney . ) 5 MR. HART: The record should 6 reflect that Monsanto Counsel is conferring 7 with the witness. 8 A. The exact program here could not be 9 followed in line with other management 1 0 decisions to withdraw Turbinol 153, because 1 1 we did not have the General Electric 1 2 approval. There was insufficient time to 1 3 obtain it. 1 4 Q . Do you know when the General 1 5 Elec tr i c approval for N C esters wa s r e c e i v e d ? 16 A. In general terms, approval was given 1 7 for fie Id testing s o m e t i me in '72 or early 1 8 '73, i n that time period somewhere 1 9 And for, I think clar ification 2 0 of e v e r y b o d y pres e n t , t h e NC ester s that w ere 2 1 prop o s e d for gas turbine s are refe r r e d to i n 2 2 o t h e r d o c u m e n t s a s T u r b i nol or MCS 112 2. 2 3 MR . HART: I'm going to move t o 2 4 strike the last sentence as nonresponsive to 2 5 thequestion. waga and spinelli certified shorthand reporters 405 Northfield Avenue West Orange, N. J. 07052 201-731-9666 WATER PCB-SD0000062134 R. E. Hatton 362 1 Q. Can you, in order to clarify the 2 record, I'd like you to explain what your 3 understanding of the term NC esters is on the 4 secondpage. 5 I understand you just gave an 6 answer, but it wasn't responsive to the 7 question, according to Counsel for Texas 8 Eastern . 9 A. NC esters -- 10 MR. HART: Wait. Wait -- ' 1 1 A. -- is related to -- 1 2 M R . H ART : Wait a minute. I ' d 1 3 like to hear the quest ion again 14 MR . PUPKE ; Okay. I'll ask the 1 5 quest ion one more time 1 6 Q The NC e s ter that' s referred t o 1 7 on the second page of this document, do you 1 8 have an understanding of what was meant by 1 9 the term, NC esters? 20 A. Yes. 2 1 Q. Can you tell me you r 2 2 understanding? Will you tell me your 2 3 understanding of that term? 2 4 A. NC esters was an internal designation 2 5 for the work that was going on t o produce waga and spinelli certified shorthand reporters 405 Northfield Avenue West Orange, N. J. 07052 201-731-9666 WATER PCB-SD0000062135 R. E. Hatton 363 1 phosphate esters of different composition 2 than those available from competitors. 3 Q. And did the term NC esters -- 4 does your understanding of the term NC esters 5 -- withdrawn. 6 Was it your understanding that 7 the term NC esters as used in this document 8 included Turbinol and 1122. 9 MR. HART: Objection to form. 1 0 It wasn't -- I'll elaborate if you want. " 11 MR. PUPKE: No. 1 2 MR. HART: That's - 1 3 A. NC esters was an internal designation 1 4 within Monsanto. Many products resulted, 1 5 including the Turbinol 1122. 1 6 And it was discussed in other 1 7 documents under MCS numbers rather than under 1 8 Turbinol tradenames. 1 9 Q. Dr. Hatton, as we've mentioned 2 0 before, it notes here that you are a cc on 2 1 this document. And you've testified before 2 2 that in late 1971 you were asked to become 2 3 involved with the Turbinol product again. 2 4 Is it fair to say that at this 2 5 time, September 16, 1971, you had already waga and spinelli certified shorthand reporters 405 Northfield Avenue West Orange, N. J, 07052 201-731-9666 WATER_PCB-SD0000062136 R. E. Hatton 364 1 been asked to become involved agai n with the 2 Turbinol 15 3 product? 3 A. I do n o t r e m e m b e r the exact dates, s o 4 I cannot c o n f irm that. 5 M R . P U P K E : Pardon me , I just 6 have to find a do c u m e n t . 7 Q > I ' d like to turn your a t t e n t i o n 8 to what' s bee n m a r k e d as Hatton Ex h i b i t 4 . 9 I'd like to d raw your attention to the 1 0 December 13 , 19 7 1 document which c omprises 1 1 pages 2 and 3 o f Hatton Exhibit 4. 1 2 Did you create this document a t 1 3 about the time of the date on the front , 1 4 December 13, 1971? 15 A. Yes. 1 6 Q. On the second page there is a 1 7 signature there. Is that your signature? 1 8 A. That is my writing. 19 Q. On the front page there is 2 0 handwriting on the lefthand margin. I'll try 2 1 to read what it says -- well, maybe you can 2 2 read what it says. Can you see that? 2 3 I believe it says, "No hold 2 4 harmless now. Changeover ASAP." And then, 2 5 "Target 20 June." waga and spinelli certified shorthand reporters 405 Northfield Avenue West Orange, N. J. 07052 201-731-9666 WATER_PCB-SD0000062137 R. E. Hatton 365 1 It may not be exactly what I 2 just read, b u t that 3 me . 4 DDoo you know whose handwriting 5 that is? 6 A. I am not c e r 7 Q . Iss thh aa t your handwriting? 8 A. That i s not my handwriting. 9 Q Inn 119977 1 did Monsanto have 1 0 facilities to dispose of Turbinol 153? ' 1 1 MR. HART: Objection to form. 1 2 MR. DAVIDSON: I'm going to let 1 3 him answer if he knows, but I think this 1 4 again does get into -- 1 5 MR. PUPKE: I went into 1 6 testimony yesterday -- 1 7 MR. DAVIDSON: -- areas not -- 1 8 MR. PUPKE: And this is a 1 9 question not asked. 2 0 MR. DAVIDSON: I understand 2 1 that. But I think it's getting out of the 2 2 areas of the agreed upon limits of the 2 3 deposition. 2 4 But I'm going to let him go 2 5 ahead and answer if he knows. waga and spinelli certified shorthand reporters 405 Northfield Avenue West Orange, N. J. 07052 201-731-9666 WATER PCB-SD0000062138 R. E. Hatton 366 1 A. Repeat the last part of that 2 question. 3 Q. To the best of your knowledge at 4 the time you wrote this letter or memo, I 5 should say, on December 13, 1971, do you know 6 if Monsanto had disposal facilities for 7 Turbinol 153 a v a i 1 a b 1 e ? 8 M R . HART : 9 t o the form. 10 A. Yes. 1 1 Q Now, you s t 1 2 th ere was. a group , o r a 1 3 T e xas -- within Monsan t o 1 4 f o r getting products c o n 1 5 i n cinerator. And then t 1 6 gr oup that a ctually wa s 1 7 i n cineration 1 8 Now, I ' m n o 1 9 c h aracterize your test i m 2 0 t r ying to re fresh your r 2 1 Were t h o s e 2 2 a b out the ti me of this 1 2 3 19 7 1? 2 4 MR. HART : I object to the 2 5 form waga and spinelli certified shorthand reporters 405 Northfield Avenue West Orange, N. J. 07052 201-731-9666 WATER PCB-SD0000062139 R. E . Hatton 367 1 MR. DAVIDSON: If you know. 2 A. I don't really -- cannot really get 3 down to a month when this occurred. 4 Q. Well, when you wrote this 5 letter, on the last part of the first 6 paragraph it says, letter C. "Assist in o o 3 < 7 ersion and di s p o s a 1 of used fluid." I 8 thin k it's probably fair to read that whole 9 sent ence. But -- 1 0 M R . HART: Just w ai t a minute. ' 11 A. Which one are we talking about? 1 2 Q . I'm sorry. 1 3 M R . HART: That was paragraph 14 E. 1 5 M R . P U P K E : That is -- actually 1 6 I ' m looking at the secon d page o f Hatton 4, 1 7 the first paragraph. I believe it's all one 1 8 sentence. 1 9 Q . It says, "The program to stop 2 0 supplying PCB containing Turbinol 153 to 2 1 Texas Eastern Transmission Corporation (our 2 2 only customer) involves the following basic 2 3 steps: a. inform them by personal visit 2 4 that Turbinol 153 will not be available after 2 5 June 1, 1972, (except under 'hold harmless' waga and spinelli certified shorthand reporters 405 Northfield Avenue West Orange, N. J. 07052 201-731-9666 WATER PCB-SD0000062140 R . E. Hatton 368 1 conditions if necessary.) b. sell them and 2 General Electric on converting to MCS 1223 3 (all phosphate ester fluid) and c. assist in 4 conversion and disposal of used fluid." 5 Do you have an understanding of 6 what you meant on part c of that sentence, 7 "assist in conversion and disposal of used 8 fluid"? 9 A, Those are very general terms, and 1 0 would have to be further defined in a - 1 1 detailed work program. 1 2 They were here and listed as an 1 3 area to discuss. 1 4 Q. On the page with the number 2 up 1 5 top, I believe it's the third page of Hatton 1 6 4, paragraph F, you refer to more 1 7 chlorine/bearing problems. 1 8 Do you have any understanding of 1 9 what you meant by that? 20 MR. DAVIDSON: Now, that . 2 1 question specifi cal ly was asked and ans wered 2 2 yesterday. 2 3 M R . P U P K E : Okay. 2 4 M R . DAVIDSON : I remember - - 2 5 M R . PUPKE : I'll take your word waga and spinelli certified shorthand reporters 405 Northfield Avenue West Orange, N. J, 07052 201-731-9666 WATER PCB-SD0000062141 R . E. Hatton - PROTECTED 3 69 1 for it. 2 M R . DAVIDSON : I t was asked and 3 answered -- 4 MR . PUPKE : I ' 1 1 take your word 5 for it, and I'll withdraw the q u e s t i o n . i--1 i--i 6 M R . HART : We I w a n t to say 7 on the record, then, that while I completely 8 agree with Monsanto's Counsel that the 9 question was asked yesterday, it is not at 1 0 all clear to me that the question rec e i v e d a 1 1 full and direct answer. 1 2 I n any event, I'm certai n that 1 3 the answer that was given could have been 1 4 probed, and therefore Texas Eastern reserve 1 5 its rights to do so, if considered 1 6 necessary. 1 7 M R . PUPKE: Let's go to the 1 8 document that we had introduced earlier, 22 I 1 9 believe it was. 2 0 Q . E x h ibit 22 is a letter dated 2 1 January 7, 1972 to Mr. Ted Harrison, 2 2 Purchasing Agent , Texas Eastern, from C. 2 3 Larry Bradford, Product Manager Hydraulics 2 4 and Lubricants. 2 5 It's on Monsanto letterhead, and waga and spinelli certified shorthand reporters 405 Northfield Avenue West Orange, N. J. 07052 201-731-9666 WATER PCB-SD0000062142 R. E. Hatton - PROTECTED 370 1 contains Texas Eastern Bates stamp number 2 00001028, 3 MR, PUPKE: So, this is covered 4 by the confidentiality order, I believe. 5 MR. HART: Well, let's go off 6 the record. 7 (A discussion takes place off 8 the record.) 9 MR. HART: Okay, then this is 1 0 protectedmaterial. ' 1 1 Q D r . Hatton , have you ever seen 1 2 th is documen t p r i o r to today, with the 1 3 e x c e p t i o n o f any review you may have 1 4 conducted wi th Counse1 ? 15 A. I d o not r e m e m b e r . 1 6 Q D o you h a v e any knowledge as to 1 7 w h ether y o u had ever me t Mr. Ted Harrison at 1 8 Texas Eastern during your employment at 1 9 Monsanto? 2 0 A. Yes. I have -- I had met him. 2 1 Q. Do you know if he was involved 2 2 at Texas Eastern in the purchase of 2 3 fire-resistant lubricants from Monsanto? 2 4 A. Yes, he was. 2 5 Q. Did you ever directly contact waga and spinelli certified shorthand reporters 405 Northfield Avenue West Orange, N. J. 07052 201-731-9666 WATER PCB-SD0000062143 R . E. Hatton - PROTECTED 371 1 him concerning the sale of fire-resistant 2 lubricant to Texas Eastern? 3 A. Such contacts where handled by the 4 marketing department, and I would not have 5 initiated any. 6 Q . Did you ever have occasion to 7 speak to Mr. Harrison concerning 8 fire-resistant lubricants? 9 A. I can't -- I don't remember any 1 0 specific instances, no. ' 1 1 Q. Do you know when the first time 1 2 you met M r . Harr i s o n was? 13 A. I d o not know a specific dat e . 1 4 Q But I s h o u 1 d say, did you meet 1 5 M r . Harr i s o n a t a m e e t i n g with othe r Texas 1 6 Eastern employees? 1 7 A. To the best of my knowledge, yes. 1 8 Q And after you left the 1 9 employment of Monsanto , did you ever 2 0 further dealings with Mr. Harrison at any 2 1 time? 2 2 A. I have not had any 2 3 Q. Did you know of Mr. Harrison at 2 4 any time when you were in the development 2 5 department at Monsanto? waga and spinetli certified shorthand reporters 405 Northfield Avenue West Orange, N, J, 07052 201-731-9666 WATER PCB-SD0000062144 R. E. Hatton PROTECTED 372 1 A. I I don't remember 2 In your position in the 3 development department at Monsanto, were you 4 ever in touch with either calling on or 5 meeting the purchasing agent for Texas 6 Eastern? 7 MR. HART: I'm going to object 8 to the form. 9 A. No . 1 0 Q This document does not contain 1 1 the attachment. 1 2 Are you aware whether at the 1 3 time of this document Texas Eastern had been 1 4 informed by Monsanto of the withdrawal of 1 5 Turbinol 153 from the market? 16 MR. HART: I'm going toobject 1 7 to the form. I do object to the form. 1 8 MR. DAVIDSON: At the time of 1 9 this January 7th -- 2 0 MR. PUPKE: January 7th, 1972. 2 1 A. Well, Larry Bradford was in charge of 2 2 handling that aspect of the discussions, and 2 3 I was generally aware of what was going on, 2 4 but not specifically. 2 5 Q Were you aware generally as to waga and spinelli certified shorthand reporters 405 Northfield Avenue West Orange, INI. J. 07052 201-731-9666 WATER PCB-SD0000062145 R. E. Hatton - PROTECTED 373 1 when Texas Eastern was informed of Turbinol 2 153 being removed from the market? 3 MR. HART; Counsel, I'm going to 4 object. I think that you're -- 5 MR. PUPKE: I think you have an 6 objection to form, and that's sufficient. 7 MR. HART: Well, no, I want to 8 spell it out at this point. 9 Your question is ambiguous. It 1 0 could go to several different things. If 1 1 you're asking -- 1 2 MR. PUPKE: Well, who - 13 MR. HART: -- are you asking 1 4 when was Texas Eastern told that Monsanto 1 5 planned to withdraw it? Or are you asking 1 6 when it was Texas Eastern was told that it 1 7 had been withdrawn? 1 8 I think there is a difference. 1 9 I think your question covers both of them. 2 0 If you want to make it clear -- 2 1 MR. PUPKE: For the sake - 2 2 MR. HART: -- I'm allowing you 2 3 to do so. If you don't, I'm objecting to 2 4 form. 25 MR. PUPKE: For the sake of the waga and spinelti certified shorthand reporters 405 Northfield Avenue West Orange, N. J. 07052 201-731-9666 WATER_PCB-SD0000062146 R. E. Hatton - PROTECTED 374 1 clarity of the record, and the second sake of 2 I don't want the courtreporter to have to go 3 back several pages to find the question, I 4 will rephrase the question. 5 Q. Dr. Hatton, did you have a 6 general understanding as to when Texas 7 Eastern was informed that Monsanto would 8 withdraw Turbinol 15 3? Withdrawn. 9 Do y o u ha e a general 1 0 understan ding as to w h n Texas Eastern was ' 1 1 informed that Mon santo would no longer sell 1 2 Turbinol 15 3? 1 3 MR. H ART : Same objection, 14 A. I do not h a v e a specific date, other 1 5 than what we have p r e v iously discussed. 1 6 M R . PUPKE : Take a five minute 1 7 break rea 1 quick. 1 8 (The re is a recess.) 1 9 Q D r . H a 11 o n, I just have a few 2 0 more ques t i o n s , a n d ho pefully we'll be done 2 1 with the question i n g . 2 2 D r . H a 11 o n, you have testified 2 3 that Mr. Frederik sen h ad been the salesperson 2 4 who was the primary co ntact with Texas 2 5 Eastern . waga and spinelli certified shorthand reporters 405 Northfieid Avenue West Orange, N. J. 07052 201-731-9666 WATER PCB-SD0000062147 R. E. Hatton 375 1 Now, I, when I say primary 2 contact I'm not using your words, I'm using 3 my interpretation of your words, so I'm not 4 trying to characterize your testimony. 5 MR.HART: I nevertheless have 6 to object whenever you do it. 7 MR. PUPKE : Okay. 8 Q. I'm trying to bring this up for 9 your recollection, not to state what you 1 0 stated. - 1 1 Do you know when Mr. Frederiksen 1 2 began his sales position with Monsanto? 1 3 A. N o, I d o n ' t . 1 4 Q . Do you know if Mr. Frederiksen 1 5 was involved with the sale of OS-81 to Texas 1 6 Eastern? 17 A. N o , Ido not. 1 8 Q D o you know the name s of any 1 9 o t h e r p e o pie in the sales dep a r t m ent who were 2 0 i n v o 1 v e d with the sale of OS- 8 1 t o Texas 2 1 E a s tern? 22 A. I do not remember the 1 o c a 1 salesmen 2 3 a t the t i m e . 2 4 Q D o you remember the people in 2 5 the sales department, or rather in the waga and spinelli certified shorthand reporters 405 Northfield Avenue West Orange, N. J. 07052 201-731-9666 WATER PCB-SD0000062148 R . E . 13 a 11 o n 376 1 market:i n g d e partment a t Monsiantio who were 2 i n v o 1 v ie d i n the market i n g of 0 S -81 to T e x a : 3 Easter:n ? 4 A. I can not find a name i n :my mem o r y . 5 Q Was there just one p e r s o n who 6 in cha:r g e o f marketing 0 S - 8 1 t o Texas 7 Easter n ? 8 MR. HART: I'll o b j e c t . I 9 object t o t h e form. 10 A. I - - I object to the - - 11 12 A. Q If you -- - - idea that there was only one 1 3 person i n v o 1 ved in mar k e t i n g 1 4 Q Yes. I - - 15 A. - - m y primary d i s c u s s ion -- o r my 1 6 discus s i o n b efore indi cates that the local 1 7 s a 1 e s p e r s o n is respons i b 1 e f o r d a y - t o -day 1 8 c o n t a c t s . That does n o t make h i m the only 1 9 or n e c ess a r i ly the pri m a r y s ale s m a n f or t h 20 ac count . 2 1 Q You don't have t o object t o 2 2 q u e s t i o n s , y ou can jus t ask m e and I ' 1 1 2 3 r e p h r a s e the m for you. A 1 t h o u g h -- 24 A . Th a t ' s what I'm going; t o say w hen 2 5 explaining it. waga and spinelSi certified shorthand reporters 405 Northfield Avenue West Orange, N. J. 07052 201-731-9666 WATER PCB-SD0000062149 R. E. Hatton 377 1 Q. Although your objections are 2 sometimes more valid than the objections of 3 others . 4 MR. HART: Well, certainly more 5 powerful. I'm not sure I agree with more 6 valid. 7 A. I'm sorry, but I had to say that. 8 Q . Let me ask the question a 9 different way, perhaps. 10 Were there people in the * 1 1 marketing department at Monsanto who were -- 1 2 whose duty it was to sell the OS-81 to 1 3 customers, including Texas Eastern? 1 4 MR. DAVIDSON; Can you put that 1 5 to a time period? 1 6 MR. PUPKE : OS-81 was, let's 1 7 say, late 1950s through 1970. 1 8 MR. HART: Well, I object to the 1 9 form. 2 0 A. There were specific people involved in 2 1 signing the sales contract for any product 2 2 supplied. 2 3 Q . Do you know who -- 2 4 A. We in development did not do that. 2 5 Q. I'm sorry. Do you know who in waga and spinelli certified shorthand reporters 405 Northfield Avenue West Orange, N. J. 07052 201-731-9666 WATER PCB-SD0000062150 R. E. Hatton 378 1 the marketing department did? 2 A. I do not remember specifically. 3 Q. Now, for the period post-1970, 4 do you h a v e any recollection of -- do y'o u 5 have a n u n d e r s t a nding of who at Monsanto was 6 i n v o 1 v e d in the marketing, or w i t h the s .ale. 7 I s h o u 1 d say, of Turbinol 153 or MCS-153 t o 8 Texas E a s tern? 9 M R . HART: Objecti on to form. 1 0 No f o u ndation ha s been laid for the - 1 1 implic a t i on that MCS-153 was ma rketed after 1 2 1 9 7 0. 13 A. W e 11, w h a t was the time period ag a i n ? 14 15 A. Q Fro m 1970, forward wh e n ? 16 17 A. Q 19 7 0, forward. B a s e d on what was said before, th is is 1 8 less than a year ' s time, or at most two 1 9 years , a n d I t h i nk that I said yesterday t h a t 2 0 it w o u, 1 d have be en Dale Smith. 2 1 Q T h i s may have been asked 2 2 yesterday , but. is Mr. Smith st ill alive ? 23 A . A s far as I know. 2 4 Q D o you know if he is still a n 2 5 employ e e of M o n s a n t o ? waga and spinelli certified shorthand reporters 405 Northfield Avenue West Orange, N. J. 07052 201-731-9666 WATER PCB-SD0000062151 R, E. Hatton 379 1 A. He has retired. 2 Q . Do you know where Mr. Smith 3 retired to? 4 A. St. Louis area. 5 Q. While I'm on the subject of 6 names, you've mentioned Don Roush. I don't 7 know how you spell that, but maybe you can 8 give the spelling to the court reporter. 9 THE REPORTER: He has. 1 0 Q . Okay. Do y ou know if Mr. Roush' 1 1 is s t i 11 a n employee of Monsanto today? 12 A. H e is not. 13 Q1 4 living 7 Do you know if he is still 15 A. N o , I do not. 1 6 Q . Do you know if he retired from 1 7 M o n s a n to? 18 A. He changed positi ons before I retired, 1 9 Q . When you sa y he changed 2 0 p o s i t i ons. do you mean h e went to a different 2 1 company? 22 A . Wen t to a differe nt company -- 23 24 A . Q Do you know - - I should have said. 2 5 Q Do you know which company he waga and spinelli certified shorthand reporters 405 Northfield Avenue West Orange, N. J. 07052 201-731-9666 WATER PCB-SD0000062152 R. E. Hatton 380 1 went to? 2 A. Somewhere in Texas. 3 MR. DAVIDSON: That's south of 4 St. Louis. 5 A. I don't -- I don't have a specific 6 company name, no. 7 Q. Okay. From the period 1958 8 through 1972, did you ever have contact with 9 an employee of Texas Eastern named J.R. 1 0 Gilcrease? ' 1 1 A. I don't remember. 1 2 Q. Did you ever have contact with 1 3 -- during that time period, with any chemists 1 4 at Texas Eastern? 1 5 A. I don't remember specifically. 1 6 Q. During the period of sale of the 1 7 Monsanto fire-resistant lubricant from 1958 1 8 through 1972, did you ever have occasion to 1 9 conduct tests onfire-resistant lubricant 2 0 that had been used and removed from the Texas 2 1 Eastern facilities? 2 2 MR. HART: I'll object to the 2 3 form. 2 4 A. Does your question refer to me, 2 5 specifically, and the laboratory? Or does it waga and spinelli certified shorthand reporters 405 Northfield Avenue West Orange, N. J, 07052 201-731-9666 WATER PCB-SD0000062153 R. E. Hatton 381 1 refer to Monsanto Laboratories? 2 Q. Well, let's start with you. 3 specifically . 4 A. Yes , on s e v e r a 1 -- yes, on m a t e r i a 1 s 5 from the e arly star tup t i m e s -- 6 7 A. Q That w o u 1 d h a v e been - - - when I w a s s t ill in the lab oratory. 8 Q That w o u 1 d h a v e been 0 S - 8 1? 9 A. 10 Yes Q Is t h a t co rre c t ? 11 A. Yes 1 2 Q Were s a m p 1 e s of f ire- res i s t a n t 1 3 1 u b r i c a n t sent to M o n s a n t o froiii T e x a s Eastern 1 4 on a r e g u 1 a r basis d u r i n g the c o u r s e of the 1 5 use of the fire-res i s t a n t lubrican t by Texas 1 6 East ern? 1 7 MR. HART: Objection. 1 8 A. If you mean did we run analyses of new 1 9 samples on request for Texas Eastern, the 2 0 answer is yes. 2 1 Q. And when the tests results were 2 2 obtained, did you forward or did someone at 2 3 Monsanto, I should say, forward the test 2 4 results on to someone at Texas Eastern? 2 5 MR. HART: Objection. waga and spinelli certified shorthand reporters 405 Northfield Avenue West Orange, N. J. 07052 201-731-9666 WATER PCB-SD0000062154 R. E. Hatton 382 1 A. The program as set up would have 2 involved an analytical report going back, 3 probably generated by the so-called control 4 laboratory or analytical laboratory. 5 Q. Do you have an understanding of 6 the type of tests that were performed on the 7 Texas Eastern samples? 8 A. These tests were designed to determine 9 the condition of the fluid and changes from 1 0 newfluid. ' 1 1 Q Dr. Hatton, on a different 1 2 subject; you were asked yesterday about your 1 3 knowledge o f PCBs being found in a gas meter 1 4 on Long I s 1 a n d in approx imately 1981. I want 1 5 to just ask one question. 1 6 The -- let me just go back a 1 7 second. 1 8 MR. PUPKE: Off the record. 1 9 (A discussion takes place off 2 0 the record.) 2 1 Q. Dr. Hatton, in approximately 2 2 1981 did you have occasion to hear of a 2 3 finding of PCBs in a Long Island gas meter in 2 4 a residence? 2 5 A. My only knowledge came from reading waga and spinelli certified shorthand reporters 405 Northfieid Avenue West Orange, N. J. 07052 201-731-9666 WATER PCB-SD0000062155 R. E, Hatton 383 1 the newspaper. 2 Q. And that was at about the time 3 that it was found? 4 MR. HART: Objection. 5 A. Whenever it was reported. 6 Q. Did you ever come to know the 7 origin of those PCBs? 8 MR. HART: Objection. 9 A. No. 1 0 MR. PUPKE: I have no further 1 1 questions . 1 2 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. HART: 1 3 Q. Dr. Hatton, as you know, I'm 1 4 Laird Hart. I representing Texas Eastern -- 1 5 MR. DAVIDSON: Mr. Hart, just a 1 6 second,please. 1 7 We are at the 3:32 point, and I 1 8 d o need to 1 e a v e a little b it before four 1 9 o ' clock in t i m e to get o V e r , and get my car 2 0 out o f the g a r a g e , and get to the airport. 2 1 You ' r e w e 1 c o me to b e g i n , i f you want to spend 2 2 1 5 minutes, or we can a t t h is point take some 2 3 action with respect to adjourning, and 2 4 continuing, and terminating, or whatever. 2 5 MR. HART: Well, it's clear to waga and spinelli certified shorthand reporters 405 Northfield Avenue West Orange, N. J. 07052 201-731-9666 WATER PCB-SD0000062156 | R. E. Hatton 384 1 me that we're going to need to adjourn to 2 another time. I hope that time will be as 3 soon as possible, consistent with the 4 schedules of everybody who needs to be 5 involved. 6 I gather that now the onus is 7 going to fall on Texas Eastern that I've got 8 to reproduce, but that Dr. Hatton is 9 available, subject to his schedule. 1 0 MR. DAVIDSON: Subject to his 1 1 schedule. 1 2 THE WITNESS: Subject to my 1 3 schedule, yes. 1 4 MR. HART: We appreciate that. 1 5 I do think I will take the opportunity to get 1 6 started, and at least mark some documents. 1 7 Off are the record. 1 8 (A discussion takes place off 1 9 therecord.) 2 0 (Document entitled, "Fire 2 1 Resistant Lubricants in Gas Turbines" by Earl 2 2 P. Farmer, Jr., Dated May 4-7, 1970, Bates 2 3 Nos. TEX 000339 through 000352, is marked 2 4 Hatton-26 for identification.) 2 5 Q. Dr. Hatton, I've had marked as waga and spinelli certified shorthand reporters 405 Northfield Avenue West Orange, N. J. 07052 201-731-9666 WATER PCB-SD0000062157 R. E. Hatton 385 1 Exhibit 26 a document entitled, 2 "Fire-resistant Lubricants and Gas 3 Turbines." It appears to be authored by Earl 4 P. Farmer, Jr. 5 And I'd ask you to take a quick 6 look at it. I'm not going to be asking you 7 any questions about its contents today. 8 But, I wonder if sitting here 9 today whether you remember having seen it 1 0 before. ' 11 A. Yes. 1 2 Q. Exhibit 2 is the Monsanto 1 3 publication that provides an abridged excerpt 1 4 from a paper by Mr. Farmer. And you might 1 5 want to pull that out and look at it. 1 6 You might also want to look at 1 7 Exhibit 18, which was introduced by Counsel 1 8 for AEGIS and National Surety. 19 A. Okay. 2 0 Q. Dr. Hatton, Counsel for AEGIS 2 1 and National Surety asked you if Exhibit 18 2 2 was the paper by Mr. Farmer that you 2 3 believed, or that you meant to refer to when 2 4 you were describing Exhibit 2; 2 5 And I just wonder if you put waga and spinelli certified shorthand reporters 405 Northfield Avenue West Orange, N. J. 07052 201-731-9666 WATER PCB-SD0000062158 R. E. Hatton 3 86 1 E x h i bit 2 6 in front of you. you might want 2 r e c o n s i d e r t h a t ear lier a n s w e r . 3 A. I c a n n o t r e m ember w h ich specif i c 4 d o c u ment that i t w a s . 5 0 n the surface , the two papers 6 a p p e a r to be the s a me paper . And it would 7 take a thorough reading to find the 8 differences, not based on a quick skim 9 through . 1 0 Q. Exhibit 26 is dated and has a ' 1 1 different footnote at the bottom of the cover 1 2 page. 13 A. Yes. 1 4 Q Okay. 15 A. That' s the obvious difference between 1 6 t o the two. 1 7 Q All right. 1 8 MR. HART: Please mark Exhibit 19 27 . 2 0 (Cal 1 Report to C.L. Bradford 2 1 from John G. Fred e r i k s e n , Date of Call 2 2 January 31, 1972, Bates No. TEX 000314 is 2 3 marked Hatton-27 for identification.) 2 4 Q . Dr . Hatton, do you recognize 2 5 Exhibit 27? waga and spinelli certified shorthand reporters 405 Northfield Avenue West Orange, N. J. 07052 201-731-9666 WATER PCB-SD0000062159 R. E. Hatton - PROTECTED 387 1 A. Yes. It's a Call Report from John 2 Frederiksen. 3 MR. HART: Let me have marked 4 Exhibit 28. 5 (Memo to multiple addressees 6 from W.B. Pa pageorge, dated February 10, 7 1972, Bates Nos. TEX 000807 through 000817 i s 8 marked Hatto n-28 for identification.) 9 Q Dr. Hatton, do you recognize 1 0 Exhibit 28? 11 A. I h a v e seen this one, yes, sir. 12 1 3 A. Q And what is it? This is an action plan prepared by 1 4 Bill Papageo r g e . 1 5 And the important points here 1 6 are page 4, which describes the action plan 17 MR. HART: Let me have marked 1 8 Exhibit 29. 1 9 (Call Report N o ., 1972-16, by 2 0 R . E . Hatton , dated April 1 0 , 1972, Bates Nos. 2 1 TEX 000887 through 000890 i s marked Hatton-29 2 2 for i d e n t i f i c a t i o n ) 2 3 Q. Well, do you recognize Exhibit 2 4 29, Dr. Hatton? 2 5 A. Yes. It is a Call Report which I waga and spinelli certified shorthand reporters 405 Northfield Avenue West Orange, N. J. 07052 201-731-9666 WATER PCB-SD0000062160 R. E. Hatton 388 1 signed. I signed theoriginal of, not this 2 one. 3 MR. HART: I'd like to mark this 4 asExhibit 30. 5 Now, this will be treated as 6 protected material. 7 (Letter to Walter Woods from 8 R.E. Hatton, dated April 11, 1972, Bates Nos. 9 000810019, 000810020, 000810021, 000810032 1 0 and 000810018 is marked Hatton-30 for ' 1 1 identification. ) 1 2 Q. Dr. Hatton, do you recognize 1 3 this Exhibit 30? 14 A. Yes. 15 16 A. Q . F 1 e a s e say what it i s 11 is a 1 e 11 e r t o Walter W o 1 7 Q D o y o u r e c ognize your 1 8 on page 3? 19 A. Yes 2 0 Q Okay. 2 1 MR. HART: Let me mark Exhibit 22 31 . 2 3 (Call Repo rt to Camming Eaton 2 4 from J.G. Frederiksen, Date of Call, August 2 5 2, 1972, Bates No. TEX 000372 is marked waga and spinelli certified shorthand reporters 405 Northfield Avenue West Orange, N, J. 07052 201-731-9666 WATER PCB-SD0000062161 R. E. Hatton 389 1 Hatton-31 for identification. ) 2 Q 3 E x h i b it 3 1? D r . Hatton , d o you recognize 4 A. Yes. This is a Call Report of John 5 F r e d e r i k s e n '' s on Texas East e r n . 6 M R . HART: Let me mark 7 Exhibit 32. 8 (Letter to C. Paton from J.H. 9 Davidson, dated August 28, 1972, 1 0 Bates Nos. TEX 000785 through 000786 is ' 1 1 marked Hatton-32 for identification.) 1 2 Q. Dr. Hatton, do you recognize 1 3 Exhibit 32? 1 4 A. This is a memo from Jerry Davidson to 1 5 CummingPaton with regard to the status of 1 6 Texas Eastern. And a quick look indicates 1 7 that it relates to a -- some information 1 8 that I had provided. 1 9 MR. HART: Mark Exhibit 33. 2 0 (Call Report to Cumming Paton 2 1 from J.G, Frederiksen, Date of Call October 2 2 24, 1972, Bates No. TEX 000371 is marked 2 3 Hatton-33 foridentification.) 2 4 Q . Dr. Hatton, do you recognize 2 5 Exhibit 33? waga and spinelli certified shorthand reporters 405 Northfield Avenue West Orange, N. J. 07052 201-731-9666 WATER PCB-SD0000062162 R. E. Hatton 390 1 A. This is another Call Report from 2 Frederiksen. 3 MR. HART: Mark Exhibit 34. 4 (Call Report to C. Paton from 5 J.G. Frederiksen, Date of Call June 11 & 13, 6 1973, Bates Nos. TEX 000909 through 000910 is 7 marked Hatton-34 for id e n t i f i cat ion.) 8 Q . Dr . Hatton, I w o n d e r if you 9 recognize the han d w r i t i n g a t the b o 11 o m o f 1 0 the first page of E x h i b i t 3 4 . 1 1 M R . PUPKE : i ' m g o i n g to o b j e c t 1 2 to the question. 1 3 M R . HART : What ground? 1 4 M R . PUPKE : This is -- 1 5 M R . HART: I'm sorry. Have I 1 6 marked -- 1 7 MR . PUPKE: You haven't asked 1 8 a b out the document. 1 9 M R . HART; I have just handed 2 0 Exhibit 34 to him , and I 'm asking if he 2 1 recognizes the handwriti ng in the right-hand 2 2 corner. 2 3 M R . PUPKE: Why don't you ask 2 4 him if he recogni, z e s the document first. 2 5 M R . HART: I'll take an answer. waga and spinelli certified shorthand reporters 405 Northfield Avenue West Orange, N. J. 07052 201-731-9666 WATER PCB-SD0000062163 f R. E. Hatton 391 1 A. Which question am I to answer? 2 MR. DAVIDSON: Do you recognize 3 the handwriting? 4 Q. Do you recognize the 5 handwriting? 6 A. No. 7 8 A. Q Do you recognize the document? I d o n t remember seeing this one. 9 specifically 1 0 It is another in a series of 1 1 Frederiksen Call Reports. 1 2 MR. HART: Mark 3 5 , 1 3 (Call Report to C . Eaton from 1 4 J . G . Frederiksen, Date of Ca 11 , June 2 8-29 1 5 1973, Bates Nos. TEX 000903 through is marked 1 6 Hatton-35 for identification.) 1 7 Q, Dr. Hatton, do you recognize . 1 8 Exhibit 35? - 1 9 A. Continuing series of Call Reports from 2 0 John Frederiksen. 2 1 Q. And my only substan tive question 2 2 of today. Dr. Hatton, will be to ask you to 2 3 state your date of birth for the record . 2 4 A. March 5th, 1918. 2 5 Q . Thank you, sir. waga and spinelli certified shorthand reporters 405 Northfield Avenue West Orange, N. J. 07052 201-731-9666 WATER PCB-SD0000062164 R. E. Hatton 392 1 MR. HART: I appreciate your 2 being here, and I will look forward to seeing 3 you again. 4 (The deposition is cone 1u d e d at 5 3:55 in the afternoon.) 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 waga and spinelli certified shorthand reporters 405 Northfield Avenue West Orange, N. J. 07052 201-731-9666 WATER PCB-SD0000062165 394 1 CERTIFICATE 2 3 I, TOMMY LARUE MILLER, Notary 4 Public and Certified Shorthand Reporter of 5 the State of New Jersey, do hereby certify 6 that prior to the commencement of the 7 examination ROGER E. HATTON, was duly sworn 8 by me to testify to the truth. 9 I DO FURTHER CERTIFY that the 1 0 foregoing is a true and accurate transcript ' 1 1 of the testimony as taken stenographica 11y by 1 2 and before me at the time, place and on the 1 3 date hereinbefore set forth. 1 4 I DO FURTHER CERTIFY that I am. 1 5 neither a relative nor employee nor Counsel 1 6 of any of the parties to this action, and 1 7 that ,1 am neither a relative nor employee,,of 1 8 .such counsel and that -I -am not financially 1 9 interested in the action. 20 _________ 2 1 Notary Public <ff he State of New Jersey My Commission expir e s May 18, 1993 2 2 License No. XI00806 23 2 4 Dated : January 2 7 , 1 9 9 0 25 waga and spinelli certified shorthand reporters 405 Northfield Avenue West Orange, N. J. 07052 201-731-9666 WATER PCB-SD0000062166 1 393 1 JURAT 2 3 I, ROGER E. HATTON, do hereby 4 certify that I have read the foregoing 5 transcript of my testimony, taken on January 6 25, 1990, and have signed it. I have listed 7 the following changes or corrections to that 8 transcript below. 9 1 0 PAGE LINE CHANGE/ CORRECTION i 11 12 13 14 15 16 Sworn to and subscribed 2 1 before me this day of , 19 9 0 22 Notary Public ____________ 23 24 25 waga and spinelli certified shorthand reporters 405 Northfield Avenue West Orange, N. J. 07052 201-731-9666 WATER PCB-SD0000062167