Document Z4zZ5v55ZR7QeY8JZ9pm1OV0Z

IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT SOUTHERN DISTRICT 07 WEST VIRGINIA CHARLESTON, WEST VIRGINIA JAMES M. ADKINS, A d m in is tr a to r of the E sta ts o f Ralph E. A dkins, Deceased, e t a l, P la in tiffs, vs. MONSANTO COMPANY, a D elaw are C orporation, D efen d an t. ) ) ) ) ) ) ) No. ) ) ) ) ) 81-2098 D eposition of GEORGE J . LEVINSKAS taken on b e h a lf o f th e P la in tiffs. R e p o r te r : M. J o y S p r in g e r J a m e s M ay R e p o r t in g S e r v ic e CERTIFIED SHO RTHAND REPORTERS R R 2 - BO X 65 ED W A R D SV ILLE. ILL IN O IS 62025 I IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF WEST VIRGINIA CHARLESTON, WEST VIRGINIA JAMES M. ADKINS, A d m in is tr a to r o f the E sta te of Ralph E. A d kins, Deceased, e t a l, P la in tiffs, vs. MONSANTO COMPANY, a D elaw are C orporation, D efen d an t. ) ) ) ) ) ) ) ) ) ) ) ) No. 81-2098 APPEARANCES: M essrs. C a lw e ll, McCormick & P ey to n , by W. S tu a r t C a lw e ll, J r . , E sq. M essrs. B ow les, McDavid, G raff & Love, by C h a rles M. Love I I I , E sq. For P la in t if f s , For D efendant. IT IS STIPULATED AND AGREED by and betw een c o u n sel fo r the p l a i n t i f f s and co u n sel fo r the d e fen d a n t t h a t the d e p o s it io n o f GEORGE J , L'EVINSKAS may be taken pursuant to Rule 2 6 (a ) o f the F ed eral R ules o f C i v i l p r o c e d u r e , on J u ly 14, 1 9 8 3 , a t th e R a d isso n H o t e l, Room 2 1 5 , 9 th S t r e e t and C on ven tion P la z a , S t . L o u is , M is s o u r i, b e fo r e M, JOY SPRINGER, a N o ta r y Pub l i c w ith in and fo r the County o f M adison, S ta te o f JAM ES MAY REPORTING SERVICE %m. M 1 . ' ' * ' 1.. s2 w3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 V 20 21 22 23 24 25 I l l i n o i s ; th a t the issu a n c e o f n o tic e and dedimus is w a iv e d , and t h a t t h i s d e p o s it io n may be taken w ith the same fo r c e and e f f e c t a s i f a l l F ed era l r u le s and s t a t u t o r y requirem ents had been com plied w ith . IT IS FURTHER STIPULATED AND AGREED t h a t any and a l l o b je c tio n s to a l l or any p art o f th is d e p o s itio n , ex cep t o b je c tio n s as to form o f the questio n s asked or answers g iv e n , are hereby reserv ed and may be r a is e d on th e t r i a l o f t h i s c a u se ; and t h a t th e sign atu re of the deponent Is not w aived. *********** - GEORGS J. LEVINSKAS produced, sworn and exam ined on b e h a lf o f th e p l a i n t i f f s , deposes and says as fo llo w s: EXAMINATION BY MR. CALWELL: (Whereupon th e r e p o r te r marked P la in t i f f s ' D e p o sitio n E x h ib it #337 (Monsanto #8324400 and #8324401) c o n s is tin g o f 2 pages, fo r the purposes o f id e n tific a tio n .) / J A M E S MAY R E P O R T I N G S E R V IC E \ 2 1 Q (By Mr. C a lw e ll) D o c to r, would you 2 s t a t e y o u r f u l l name f o r th e r e c o r d , p le a s e . 3 A I t ' s George J. L evinskas. 4 Q You have a Ph. D ., i s th a t r ig h t ? 5 A Y e s, Ph. D. 6 Q You s t i l l l i v e a t 517 F a ir v ie w C ir c le ? 7 A Fairways C ir c le . 8 Q How do you pronounce i t , C reve -- 9 A I t ' s Creve Coeur. 1 Q And what i s your a g e , s i r ? 11 A I have to s t o p and t h in k . 5 9 . My 12 b ir th d a y j u s t happened l a s t week.. 13 Q And you g r a d u a te d from W esleyan 14 U n iv e r s i t y in M id dletow n, C o n n e c tic u t? 15 A Tha t ' s c orre c t . l Q That was your u n d ergrad u ate work? 17 A R ig h t . 18 Q Was t h a t in C h em istry? 19 A M ajor in C h e m istr y , minor in M a th em a tics. 20 Q Then you w ent in th e C oast Guard? 21 A N o. I was in th e Army in b etw een 22 tim e a t W esleyan . I s t a r t e d a t W esleyan and a t th e 23 o u tb re a k o f World War XI I l e f t t o go in th e s e r v i c e , 24 r e tu r n e d and g o t my D e g re e, 25 Q And you g o t a Ph. D. a t th e U n iv e r s i t y JAM ES MAY REPORTING SERVICE r o f R ochester in 1949? -A 153. Q And th a t was in C h em istry , r ig h t ? A No. That wasin Pharm acology w ith a minor in B io ch em istry . Q That Degree was c o n fe r r e d on you in 1953? A 1953. Q What d id you do f o llo w in g b e in g awarded the ph. D.? A I jo in ed the fa c u lty a t the Grivas S ch ool o f P u b lic Hea1th in the Department o f Occupa tio n a l H ealth a t the U n iv e r sity o f P ittsb u rgh . Q And what d id you do f o r th e U n iv e r s i t y of Pittsburgh? A Com bination o f tea ch in g and resea rch . Q Did you tea c h T oxicology? A Y es, I taught a course inT oxicology. Q In d u str ia l Toxicology? A The t i t l e was I n d u s t r ia l T o x ic o lo g y ,y e s . Q What e l s e d id you te a c h th ere? A I gave sem inars and I lectu red in a v a r ie t y o f o th er c l a s s e s or c o u r se s fo r o th er members o f the fa c u lty , but I had on ly the one course w hich was my p a r t i c u la r c o u r s e . JAM ES MAY REPORTING SERVICE l  A' t- 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 l 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 q And t h a t b e in g I n d u s t r i a l T o x ic o lo g y ? ;A In d u stria l T oxicology. Q Now, what i s I n d u s t r ia l T o x ico lo g y ? A l'ai not sure th e r e ' s a formal d e fin itio n fo r i t , but I would say th a t i t ' s a stu d y o f the e f f e c t s o f ch em icals w hich were u sed , handled and encountered in in d u stry. Q Now, t h a t b ea rs some str o n g r e l a t i o n s h ip t o your Ph. D. In Pharm acology? A I t ' s e s s e n t i a l l y a f a c e t o f Pharma c o lo g y , i f you want to c a l l i t such, Q What i s Pharm acology? . A W ell, Pharmacology in i t s broadest se n s e w ould be th e s c i e n c e o f d r u s s , ` Then i t would have se v e r a l, subdivisions ranging from the knowledge o f p la n ts from which drugs or m ed icin a l drugs cou ld be e x tr a c te d on the compound, p r e sc r ib in g o f tre a tm en ts, to the treatm ent of drugs, m edical co n d itio n s as w e ll as studying the a ctio n s o f drugs, in clu d in g th e ir ad verse or to x ic rea ctio n s, Q Now, sounds lik e a p r e tt y broad d iscip lin e, A Yes. q On w hat d id you do your d i s s e r t a t i o n ? Did you s i n g l e o u t some s p e c i f i c a r e a t h a t you w ere JAM ES MAY REPORTING SERVICE I I- II I I I 1 i L, * 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 io 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 i A p a r tic u la r ly in te r e s te d in? A A c tu a lly , I stu d ied the ch aracter i s - t ic s of the bone m ineral. Q Now, how lo n g d id you te a c h a t th e U n iv ersity of P ittsburgh? A Five yea rs, u n til 1958. Q And then what d id you do? A Then I jo in e d the American Cyanamide Company a t t h e i r S ta n fo r d , C o n n e c tic u t, la b o r a to r y . Q They had L edderle L ab oratories th e r e , did they not? A No. L edd erle was a d iv is io n o f American Cyanamida, but I was in the Corporate > fed ical D epartm ent, w hich is se p a r a te from the L edderle D iv is io n . Q Now, b ein g in the C orporate M ed ical Departm ent, was th a t r e la te d to th is area you had been teachin g in In d u str ia l Toxicology? A Y es. They combined two la b o r a to r ie s , one from T o x ico lo g y , one from I n d u s tr ia l H ygiene, to form a s o -c a lle d E nvironm ental H ealth L aboratory, and I j o in e d them to head up th a t, la b o r a t o r y . Q So did you have some e x p e r ie n c e or tr a in in g in I n d u s tr ia l Hygiene? A I had some w h ile I was in the g ra d u a te s c h o o l and I have been a member o f th e I n d u s t r i a l H ygiene J A M E S MAY R E P O R T I N G S E R V I C E 6 9 1 A sso c ia tio n , I gu ess, sin ce about *54, *55. 2 Q Now, how does I n d u s t r ia l H ygiene 3 as a d is c ip lin e , and I assume th a t i t i s , r e la te to 4 I n d u s tr ia l T oxicology? Are th ey p r e tty c lo s e , th ey 5 go h an d -in -g lo v e? 6 A They are q u ite c lo s e , and from t h ir t y 7 years ago I dare say th a t most people probably wore 8 both h a ts, th a t they were not as sep arate as they are 9 today. 10 Q Could you b r i e f l y t e l l >Te what th e 11 d i s c i p l i n e o f I n d u s t r i a l H ygiene in v o lv e s a s you d id 12 when you e x p la in e d - 13 A 'e ll, p r im a r ily I n d u s t r ia l H ygiene 14 i s con cern ed w ith the - - I g u e s s , th e d e f i n i t i o n would 15 be m o n ito r in g o f s t r e s s e s a s th e y occu r in th e w o r k p la c e . 16 Q Now, when you sa y s t r e s s e s a s th e y 17 o ccu r in th e w o r k p la c e , th at* - e term o f a r t , o b v io u s ly . 18 W hatrs i t mean to you? 19 A W e ll, s t r e s s e s t o me c o v e r s a v a r i e t y 20 o f s t r e s s e s . I t can ra n g e from n o is e to r a d i a t io n to 21 h e a t . W hatever p h y s i o l o g i c a l s t r e s s e s x a y e x i s t in th e 22 w o r k p la c e . 23 Q So i f I u n d e rsta n d what you*re s a y i n g , 24 th e n , I n d u s t r i a l H ygiene i s th e s tu d y o f th e c o n t a c t 25 b etw een human a c t i o n and w h a tev e r m igh t be in th e w o rk p la ce JAM ES MAY REPORTING SERVICE I f# 1 - * 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 ; th a t would cause s tr e s s ? A His work environm ent, y es. Q And the purpose f o r stu d y in g th a t is to do what? A P r o te c t the h e a lth and w elfare o f the em ployees. Q So out of exam ining these p o in ts o f s t r e s s you, I g u e ss, d ev elo p p r in c ip le s or r u le s -- A One w ould hope t o c o n t r o l them w it h in tolerab le lim its. Q I'd lik e to explore that ju st a l i t t l e b i t more. Once you i d e n t i f y a s t r e s s p o in t , a re you resp on sib le as the In d u stria l H ygienist lor designing d if f e r e n t ways o f, l e t ' s sa y , i f i t ' s a to x ic su b sta n ce, d iffe r e n t ways of han dling the m a teria ls or d if f e r e n t ways o f p ro cessin g the ic a te r ia ls; or I f I t 's connected wi th a p ro d u ct ion o f some ?ub* ta nc e , f or examp l e , wou 1 d the I n d u s t r i a l H y g ie n is t be r e ;pops lb " 2 f o r maybe a l t e r in g th e means o f p ro d u ctio n to Increa:;* the s a f e t y o f th e worker? Is th a t the kind o f th in g you do a s an In d u str ia l H ygienist? MR. LOVE; 3 t u a r t , I w ould o b j e c t t o the form o f your q u e s t io n on the b a s is you h a v e n 't e s t a b lis h e d he 1 * an I n d u s tr ia l H y g ie n is t . Go ahead and a n sw e r. J A M E S MAY R E P O R T I N G S E R V I C E 1 4 'i '\ T- 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 < l 1 A I'm not the In d u str ia l H ygien ist. . Q (By Mr. C a lw e ll) I w a s n 't a s k in g you to t e s t i f y as one, but you b elong to the In d u str ia l Hygiene A s so c ia tio n fo r t h ir t y years and i t ' s v ery c l o s e l y r e l a t e d , and I'm s im p ly a s k in g you i f you know i f th a t is a fu n c tio n th a t the I n d u s tr ia l H y g ie n ist would perform . A H aving s a i d I have been a member o f the so c ie ty for th ir ty years and I trie d to in d ica te th ere is an overlap , i f you w i l l , between T oxicology and I n d u s t r ia l H ygien e, and s o on th a t b a s is and t h i r t y years ago there were no sep arata p r o fe ssio n a l s o c ie t ie s fo r t o x ic o lo g is t s , so most o f us belonged to th a t s o c ie t y . I would have to c o n jec tu r e th a t probably th a t's th e fu n ctio n o f the In d u s tr ia l H y g ie n ist, but I'm not an In d u str ia l H y gien ist and I c a n 't speak w ith c o n v ictio n on th a t p o in t. Q I understand th a t. But th a t would g e n e r a lly be a r o le th a t you would ex p ect an I n d u s tr ia l H y g ie n ist to p lay a s ig n if ic a n t part in? A Oh, th e r e w ould be a v a r i e t y o f p e o p le in v o lv e d in s a f e t y who w ould p a r t ic ip a t e in th a t d ec is io n , and I can assume the I n d u s tr ia l H y g ie n ist would have a role in i t . Q Now, in r e la t io n to the I n d u s tr ia l 1 J A M E S MAY R E P O R T I N G S E R V I C E * 9 1 H ygien ist, again, referrin g to that l it t l e h yp oth etical 2 s i t u a t i o n th a t I d e s c r ib e d , who would you e x p e c t t o 3 be p la y in g a r o le ? 4 A I t w ou ld depend on the s t r u c t u r e o f 5 the o r g a n iz a tio n , but i t would be a v a r ie ty o f p eople 6 sta r tin g w ith the m anagerial p eop le, the engineerin g 7 p eop le, process people, ch em ists, m edical personn el. 8 I would th in k th ere would be a v a r ie ty o f people in 9 volved in that d e c isio n , 10 Q Ncxi, you worked f o r A m erican Cyanamide 11 in th e C orporate M ed ic a l D ep artm en t. Now, w hat 12 s p e c i f i c a l l y d id you do fo r them? 13 A We had a la b o r a to r y t h a t was co n 14 c er n e d w ith th e t o x i c o l o g y o f a l l p ro d u cts o f the 15 company e x c e p t th e drugs w h ich w ere h a n d led by th e 16 L e d d e r le D i v i s i o n , 17 Q Was t h a t company in v o lv e d in an y 18 c h lo r in a t e d p h en o ls? 19 A I do n o t r e c a l l t h a t th e y were i n 20 v o lv e d in th e m anu factu re o f them . They may have u sed 21 them . 22 Q Did you have o cca sio n to - - Is t e s t 23 in g th e r i g h t word f o r what you w ould do? 24 A (Nods head a f f i r m a t i v e l y , ) 25 Q When you w ere w ork in g f o r Am erican JAM ES MAY REPORTING SERVICE 1 Cyanamide, d id you have o cca sio n to t e s t ch lo rin a ted 2 phenols fo r t o x ic it y ? 3 A No, I did n o t. 4 Q When you w ere d o in g your c o u r se w ork, 5 d id you have any stu d ie s th a t in v o lv ed c h lo rin a te d 6 phenols o f any kind? 7 A I d o n 't r e c a ll th a t I did any work S on t h o s e . 9 Q I would assume th a t you 're a t le a s t 10 now f a m i li a r w ith a group o f s u b s ta n c e s t h a t have been U gen erally id e n tifie d as dioxins? 12 A I ' v e h eard o f them . 13 Q D uring your c o u r se work when you w ere 14 w ork in g on your Ph. D. or d u rin g your c o u r se work d id 15 you have o c c a s io n t o become a c q u a in te d w ith an y o f th e 16 d i o x i n s , know o f t h e i r e x is t e n c e ? 17 A N o, and I d o n 't b e l i e v e anybody e l s e 18 knew o f t h e i r e x i s t e n c e a t t h a t tim e . 19 Q And t h a t w ould have been in th e l a t e 20 '4 0 's and e a r ly ' 5 0 's , r ig h t? 21 A Y e s . 22 Q D id you s tu d y a b o u t c h lo r a c n e d u rin g 23 your c o u r se work? 24 A Y e s.Chbracne i s a c o n d it io n t h a t ' s 25 f a i r l y w e l l d e s c r ib e d in th e m e d ic a l l i t e r a t u r e . JAM ES MAY REPORTING SERVICE $ 'j 1 2 3 4 5 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 l 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q Even In th e la t e 1900*3 th ere was some - A X th in k the term was probably c o in ed about th at tim e. Q And d u r in g your c o u r se work d id you have o c c a s io n to know o f some o f th e c a u se s o f ch lo ra cn e, su b stan ces th a t might cause it? A The c l a s s i c one would be the c h l o r l nated naphthalenes which is c it e d in v ir t u a lly a l l textbooks in which i t ' s r eferred to . \! D o you now know i f a c h lo r in a t e d naphthalene has the p o te n tia l fo r c re a tin g a d io x in in some s t e p o f i t s u se? A I don* t know. N et knowing how th e y m anufacture c h lo r in a te d n a p h th a le n e s , I d o n ' t know i f th a t Is a -ihem ical p o s s i b i l it y . I don' t r e c a ll o f reading about d ioxin s in ch lo rin a ted naphthalenes. 3 Does the name c h lo r in a t e d n a p h th a le n e in d ic a te to you -- X g u e ss, you' re a t o r iic o lo g is t , r ig h t? A Yes. Q - - as a to x ic o lo g ist that there are s u ffic ie n t stru ctu res th ere, m olecular stru ctu res th at m ight s e t up a s i t u a t i o n w here you c o u ld g e t a d io x in o f some kind under c ir c u m sta n c e s? A As c o n j e c t u r e , I d on ' t b e lie v e t h a t a naphthalene would form a d io x in . C h em ically i t ' s a JAM ES MAY REPORTING SERVICE ft f 1 2 3 4 5 7 8 *9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 double r in g , u n lik e the d io x in t h a t !s formed from sin g le benzene rin g s. Q When d id you f i r s t become a c q u a in te d w ith these substances id e n tifie d as dioxins? A 1*01 n o t su re I c o u ld put a p a r t ic u la r tim e fram e on i t , but I w ou ld s a y p ro b a b ly somewhere in to the e a r ly , o id , 70f s , perhaps. Q O.K. How lo n g d id you s t a y w ith th e A m erican Cyanamide Company? A U n til 1971. q And th en you w en t t o work f o r M onsanto? A Yes. Q And w are you Manager o f P rod uct A ?sensm aut wnsr. you f i r s t w ent th e r e ? A That was th e p o s it ion I h e ld . 1 th in k the f i r s t t i t l e th e y geve me was Sanager o f Product Development and th ey d ecid ed th a t was a ra th er n o n - d e s c r ip t term f o r -ny p o s i t i o n , s o th e y changed i t to Manager o f E nvironm ental A ssessm ent and T o x ico lo g y . Q Where d id you go to work fo r M onsanto? Was t h a t in the S t . L ou is a r e a ? A S t, Louis a rea. Q Was th e r e a s p e c i f i c p la n t you w en t to? A W ell, corporate headquarters. q And what i s your p r e s e n t p o s i t i o n w it h JAM ES MAY REPORTING SERVICE i: .t 1 th e company? . ;*V. 2 . I fm the D irecto r o f Environm ental 3 A ssessm ent and T oxicology, 4 Q Have your d u t ie s changed or r esp o n 5 s i b i l i t i e s changed much s i n c e 1971 w it h th e company? 6 A N ot s u b s t a n t ia lly . There* s been 7 somewhat o f an enlargem en t and in t e n s if ic a t io n , but 8 e s s e n tia lly unchanged. 9 Q So e s s e n t i a l l y you*re d oin g the same 10 work in the same a r e a t h a t you a lw a y s have f o r M onsanto? 11 A T hat*s c o r r e c t . 12 Q X w ould im agin e you p ro b a b ly have 13 a l i t t l e more a d m in is t r a t iv e r e s p o n s i b i l i t y and th a t 14 s o r t o f th in 15 A T h a t*.7 c o r r e c t . 16 Q V/hen you f i r s t w ent t o workfo r 17 M onsan to, was th e r e a s p e c i f i c p r o j e c t t h a t you w ent t o 18 work on , or what d id you s t a r t d o in g f o r them? 19 A The p rim ary em p h asis was in th e a r e a 20 o f w hat we c a l l e n v ir o n m e n ta l a s s e s s m e n t . They were 21 s t a r t i n g a program t o r e v ie w w hat was known a s i t s 22 p r o d u cts t o d eterm in e what a d d i t i o n a l t e s t i n g *sh o u ld 23 be done, and t o g e t t h a t program underw ay i s why I 24 j o in e d th e company. 25 Q Was t h a t a new u n d e r ta k in g f o r th e JAM ES MAY REPORTING SERVICE \ m \ 1 2 3 4 5 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 l 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 c ompany? A I d o n 't th in k i t was new in th e s e n s e o f de n o v o , b u t i t was a r e d i r e c t i o n and renew ed em p h a sis on i t . Q So th ere had been some program, by w hatever name, th a t had sought to do e s s e n t i a l ly what you came to th e company to do? A I b e lie v e most o f what I was doing was b ein g done b e fo r e X came th e r e . Q And you s im p ly , p e r h a p s, r e d ir e c t e d i t , an d , p e r h a p s, im proved on i t , A R efocused and r e i n t e n s if i c a t i o n . Q O.K. And ^ h at ciid th a t in v o lv e ? ".Cer e th e re i-pec I f i c i ub t ta nc e s you were lo o k in g a t a t th at time? A I t started o ff as a general idea, and what we s t a r t e d to do was to lo o k a t new p r o d u c ts , p ro p o sed new u s e 0 fo r e x i s t i n g p ro d u cts or where we were in s tit u tin g , proposing to in s titu te changes in m a n u fa ctu rin g p r o c e d u r e s, t h a t we w ould tak e a lo o k a t th o se o p e r a tio n s o f th o se products to review them and from our p e r sp e c tiv e se e w hether th ere was a d d itio n a l inform ation chat ought to be developed in lig h t o f c o n c e r n s , q u e s tio n s or la c k o f knew le d g e r e g a r d in g m aterials involved. JAM ES MAY REPORTING SERVICE 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 S 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 t- 19 20 21 I 22 23 24 25 I Q O.K. And d id any o f those products . .y - in clu d e c h lo r in a te d phenols th a t Monsanto m ight have been u sin g or producing? A VJe do have a m a t e r ia l w hich i s a su b stitu te of chlorophenol used as a germ icide. X th in k we lo o k ed a t th a t o n e. T h a t' s a b o u t th e o n ly o n e. Q Did i t have a name? A Santophen, Q Was t h a t a t th e Krummrich P la n t? A I t was Krummrich or Queeny. I r e a l l y cou ld n ' t t e l l you fo r su re. Q And what were you lo o k in g fo r ? A W ell, th is is a germ icide chat was r e g is t e r e d -.vith the E n viron m en tal P r o te c tio n A gency, and so we took s o r t o f a g e n e r a l lo o k a t i t to s e e i f th e m was so m e th in g more we sh ou ld d o . P ro b a b ly my generaL r e c o l l e c t i o n w ould be was s in c e i t was r e g is t e r e d w it h the EPA and met th e r e g i s t r a t i o n r e q u ir e m e n ts , we p r o b a b ly d i d n ' t do much w ith i t . Q And t h i s w ould have been in 1970, *72, th a t tim e fram e, somewhere in th ere? A Somewhere in th e e a r ly to mid f 7 0 ' s , probably. Q Were you lo o k in g f o r a c o n ta m in a n t in Santophen? JAM ES MAY REPORTING SERVICE I . } 4. : V 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 / A No. I t was j u s t to look a t the product as i t was bfiing so ld . Q Did you look a t an y, lik e , p en tachlorophenol or trich lo ro p h en o l, orthochlorophenol during th a t period? A We p r o b a b ly d id some a c u te t o x i c i t y t e s t i n g on one or two o f th e c h lo r o p h e n o ls . We d id do -- This would be g e t t in g in t o th e mid 1 9 7 0 's probab ly - some t e s t i n g o f e i t h e r p e n ta c h lo r o p h e n o l or p e n ta chlorophenol byproducts, w aste products, for chloracne in the r a b b it ea r t e s t fo r the c h ic k edema f a c t o r . Q You.were lo o k in g fo r a d io x in th en , is that right? A I w asn't s p e c ific a lly looking for a m a t e r ia l. We w ere t e s t i n g to s e e i f th e y c a u se d th e b i o l o g i c a l e f f e c t s . D ioxin m ight cause them or d ib e n z o fu ran s m ight cause them. Q A t le a s t th ose two su b sta n ces were on your mind, so to sp ea k , when th e se m atters were b ein g looked a t and tested for acu te to x ic ity ? A I f I c o u ld r e c a l l my s t a t e o f m ind, I d o n 't th in k I had in mind a p a r t ic u la r subsfence th a t I was lo o k in g f o r . My c o n c e r n from a b i o l o g i c a l t e s t ing sta n d p o in t was i f i t produces t h is b io lo g ic a l r e s ponse in anim als, whatever produces i t , then there are J A M E S MAY R E P O R T I N G S E R V I C E 1 1 c e r ta in p recau tion s we'd have to take in ad visin g p e o p le a b o u t h a n d lin g th e s e r e s i d u e s . What th e c a u s a tiv e agen t is in most ca ses is o f secondary importance t o me. Q But you knew a t th a t time th a t ou t o f th a t, say , the pentachlorophenol or trich lo ro p h en o l, th a t i f ch loracn e was produced, the p o s s ib le c a u sa tiv e a g en t would be one o f the d io x in s or d ib en zo fu ra n s? A Having a g en era l aw areness o f th a t, y e s , but not any sp e c ific d ioxin . Q But you were a t le a s t aware o f th a t a t the tim e, righ t? A R ight. Q Do you know i f a n y d io x in s were id e n t if ie d during th is p eriod o f time in th ose su b stan ces? A I don 't r e c a ll that they were, but th en my group i s n o t in v o lv e d in c h e m ic a l a n a l y s i s o f ' m aterials. Q Were you w orking in c o n ju n c tio n w ith the group th a t was involved in the chem ical a n a ly sis * a t th e same tim e on th e same s u b s ta n c e s fo r th e same g o a l? A We do a l l o f our work in c o n ju n c t io n w ith th e u n it who has r e s p o n s ib i li t y fo r th e p rod u ct. I can* t sa y th a t I a c t u a lly knew what th e y were d oin g or was aware o f what th ey were doing in terms o f ch em ical JAM ES MAY REPORTING SERVICE I a n a l y s i s . As a m a tter o f f a c t , i t p ro b a b ly - - We probably-could d e te c t things in the b io lo g ic a l system a t le v e ls - low er than the ch em ists cou ld d e te c t them a t t h a t tim e . So I r e a l l y d o n 't know w h eth er th e y were attem p tin g to an alyze and unable to a n a ly ze. Q I suppose? You w ere w ork in g w ith a n im a l t e s t i n g , A Yes, s ir . Q How do you d e t e c t th e s e s u b s ta n c e s through anim al te s ts ? Is i t through ob servation o f e f f e c t s on the a n im a ls and then you deduce from t h a t what they were exposed to? A - W e ll, we g e n e r a l l y know w hat we a r e g iv in g th e a n im a l, and the a tte m p t i s made t o i n t r o duce th e ch em ica l to the anim al in a manner analogou s to th a t w hich a worker or custom er would encounter the c h e m ic a l. Then we o b ser v e the e f f e c t on th e a n im a l. Now, we d o n 't know w h eth er th e m a t e r ia l we a d m in is te r e d or some byp rod u ct or some m e ta b o lic end produ ct pro d u ces some end e f f e c t . The f i r s t s t a g e i s m e r e ly a b rin g in g to g eth er the aninn 1, chem ical and o b serv a tio n . The a tte m p t t o d e c ip h e r w hat s p e c i f i c a l l y produced which ob servation is another saga th a t takes a con sid era b ly longer tim e. Q So i f I understand i t , the f i r s t phase JAM ES MAY REPORTING SERVICE f K \! 1 or th is a sp ect of your te s tin g in volves inducing a ' 2 M on san to-produ ct or a known su b sta n c e in an a n im a l .l 3 i11 4 I 1I 5 I 1 11 6 17 and then record in g the r e s u lts or e f f e c t s , i f any? A T hat's co rrect. Q From a t o x i c o l o g i c a l ' s ta n d p o in t and r e la te d in d u s t r ia l h y g ien e sta n d p o in t, i f a worker was b e in g ex p o sed to t h i s p rod u ct th a t gave you some un- ii 8 11 9 d esira b le r e s u lts in your anim al te s tin g , is i t im portant fo r you to ca rr y i t one ste p fu rth er to fin d 10 1 11 out s p e c if ic a lly what the to x ic substance is before you take some a c t io n r e g a r d in g ,s a y , worker exposu re? 1 12 A I d on 't th in k i t ' s n ecessa ry and 13 I dare s a y in m ost c a s e s t h a t ' s n o t don e. I f you 14 know so m eth in g in th a t p a ck a g e, i f you w i l l , th a t 15 you a d m in is te r e d to th a t a n im a l i s p r o d u cin g an a d - 16 v e r s e e f f e c t , th e prim ary c o n c e r n and em p hasis sh o u ld 17 be on c o n t r o l i n g , l i m i t i n g or e li m in a t i n g ex p o su re so 18 19 -i ] 20 1 21 ! !! 22 i i 23 |!1 24 25 1t rii1 th a t th e e f f e c t i s n o t s e e n . To d e la y a c t i o n u n t i l you found out what the cause was I th in k j u s t is n ot d o n e , t h a t ' s n o t th e p r a c t i c e . One can c o n t r o l a r i s k w ith o u t knowing w h at's in v o lv e d . Q And i s t h a t in f a c t M on san to's p o lic y ? A Y es, th a t's the p ra ctice in the c h e m ic a l in d u s t r y , a s fa r a s I know i t . Q Now, a s a t o x i c o l o g i s t and in the J A M E S MAY R E P O R T I N G S E R V I C E 1 2 1 r e l a t e d i n d u s t r i a l h y g ie n e a r e a , how do you d eterm in e 2 t h a t w orker in th e w orkplace i s s u f f e r in g some d e l e ' 3 te r io u s exposure th a t would req u ire the M edical De 4 partm ent, the to x ic o lo g is t and the in d u s tr ia l hy 5 g i e n i s t to take a lo o k a t th e s i t u a t i o n ? How do you 6 come t o know t h a t s o r t o f th in g ? 7 A 1`m not sure there is a s p e c ific 8 answ er th a t would answ er a l l t h in g s . In some c a s e s , 9 perhaps, in most c a s e s , one would s t a r t lo o k in g a t a 10 m a t e r ia l b e fo r e th e r e w ere c o m p la in ts . T his i s r e a l l y 11 th e r a t i o n a le o f d o in g the t o x i c i t y t e s t s i s to have 12 fo re k n o w led g e o f what may o c cu r so as t o a v o id d i f f i 13 c u l t y - 14 '} There i s a p r e v e n ta t iv e p h ilo s o p h y in 15 t h i s 16 A I t 's a s u b h e a lth concep: a lm o s t in 17 th e s e n s e o f p r e v e n ta t iv e m e d ic in e . I f th e r e a r e 18 w orker c o m p la in ts , t h e s e w ould m e r it i n v e s t i g a t i o n , i f 19 a p h y s ic ia n has a q u e s t io n t h a t he e n c o u n te r s . There 20 co u ld be a v a r ie t y o f r e a so n s. I t co u ld be the ap p ear 21 a n ce o f in fo r m a tio n in th e l i t e r a t u r e or e ls e w h e r e t h a t 22 a c h e m ic a l produced an e f f e c t and one w ou ld wonder vjhether 23 c h e m ic a ls somewhat s i m i la r or r e a s o n a b ly s i m i la r m igh t 24 be p ro d u cin g a s i m i l a r e f f e c t . But th e r e c o u ld be a 25 v a r i e t y o f t r i g g e r p o i n t s . JAM ES MAY REPORTING SERVICE 1 Q In connection w ith the p reven tative 2 c o n c e p t in t o x i c o l o g y a nd I n d u s t r i a l h y g ie n e , d o es 3 th at require people, such as y o u r se lf, to sta y 4 J ab reast o f the lite r a tu r e in order to try to see i f 5 th e re are g o in g to be problem s th a t you m ight be ab le to prevent in the workplace? 7 A T h is i s one o f th e th in g s we w ould 8 hope to try to do. 9 Q And d oes M onsanto m a in ta in some 10 kind o f a L ibrary th a t you h ave a c c e s s to f o r t h i s 11 kind o f r e se a r c h ? 12 Ve have a v a r i e t y o f L a b o r a to r ie s . 13 We have one in the C o rp o ra te > fed ica l D epartm ent and 14 we a l s o hav' c l o s e by our C e n tr a l R esea rch L a b o r a t o r ie s . 15 ^ i said lib rary. ,16 A I t s h o u ld bf= l i b r a r i e s . One is 17 a c tua 11 y in th e Do pa r tn e r.t o f Med ie in e an d " nv i r on 18 e n ta l H e a lth . We have a C o rp o ra te R e se a r c h C enter 19 w hich has laboratorfes connected to which are e x ten 20 siv e actu al lib rary f a c ilit ie s . 21 Q Is th at Corporate Research Center? 22 A Y es. And th en in th e l a s t d ecade 23 m ostly there* s been a p r o life r a tio n o f on lin e computer 24 se r v ic e s th at w ill give you a ccess to a b stra c ts in 25 l i t e r a t u r e , and we s u b s c r ib e t o s e v e r a l o f t h e s e . JAM ES MAY REPORTING SERVICE 1 q And, i f you know, p rior to about 2 ten y e a rs ago when you had a c c e s s to th ese com puter 3 data b a ses, I suppose 4 A They have r e a l l y gr<x/n o n ly a b o u t 5 the la s t ten years. 6 Q Bid the M onsanto l ib r a r i e s , were 7 they on, did they p rescrib e - - Is there 7_iterature th at 8 you s u b s c r ib e to or I f some s c i e n t i s t somewhere w r it e s 9 a p a p er, how do you g e t I t a s a t o x i c o l o g i s t ? 10 A a g a in , t h e r e ' s no fix e d , a n sw er. Thera 11 a re numerous a b s t r a c t s e r v i c e s . C h e a ic a l a b s t r a c t s , 12 b i o l o g i c a l a b s t r a c t s a re the l a r g e s t , but th e r e a r e 13 a l s o v a r io u s s u b s p e c i a l t i e s in s u b j e c t d i s c i p l i n e s . 14 There a r e s e r v i c e s , one o f w h ich i s the t a b le o f 15 c o n t e n t s in w hich th e y s im p ly re p ro d u c the ta b le o f l c on te n ts o f var io u s j our na Is =nd t b / y ;o-..s oi:t iui 1 i t t le 17 T r a d e r ' i B ig e s t magazi o e - 3 i z e f or-:. 11/ c *; a l*i j "urtiaI s 18 w h ich in d iv id u a ls s u b s c r ib e to or g e t . a r t o f t h e i r 19 m em bership in th e s e s o c i o t i e . -o ' a ' li corson has h i s 20 own way o f t r y in g to cope, w it h t h i s . 21 Q So i t lo o k s l i k e a c o m b in a tio n o f 22 t h i n g s . I g u e s s , th e M onsanto l i b r a r i e s t o u l c be on 23 one or more o f th e s e c h e m ic a l a b s t r a c t s e r v i c e s ? 24 A T h a t's c o r r e c t . 25 q And t h e s e t a b le o f c o n t e n t s e r v i c e s , JAM ES MAY REPORTING SERVICE .\ l 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 ; and in a d d itio n , would the Monsanto resea rch lib r a r ie s a lso subscribe to various p u b lica tio n s, I suppose? A Yes. Q And then in a d d itio n to t h a t , in d iv id u a l t o x i c o l o g i s t s , lik e y o u r s e lf , may, p erhaps, subscribe to p ro fessio n a l p u b lication s? A Yes. Q Do you know how lo n g th e M onsanto lib r a r ie s th at you have been ta lk in g about have been in' e x iste n c e ? Is th is som ething th a t's been a lo n g time th in g w ith the company? A 1 d o n 't know, but I would co n jectu re th a t th ey p ro b a b ly have a lm o st th e same l i f e span a s the research la b o ra to ries th em selves, ./ich resp ect to the M edical Department lib r a r y , i t probably goes back to about the time o f the M edical Department sim p ly because i t would be im p r a ctica l to op erate w ith o u t a lib rary resource. Q So I sou Id co n clu d e from t h i s th a t you w o u ld n 't have had a company w ith o u t th o se kinds o f f a c i l i t i e s , probably? A Every place X have been a sso c ia te d w ith has had a l i b r a r y , and I d o n 't s e e how one c o u ld p o ssib ly hope to even t r a i l a pack w ith ou t a lib r a r y . You c o u l d n 't even hope t o t r a i l a pack w ith o u t a l i b r a r y , - J A M E S MAY R E P O R T I N G S E R V I C E 1 2 ti ft V_' . \ l 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 ( A Yes. -Q And anybody in v o lv e d in i n d u s t r i a l h y g ie n e ? A Yes. Q And a l s o p e o p le in v o lv e d in th e M edic a l Department? A T hat's co rrect. Q These are lik e to o ls o f the tra d e, I suppose? A T hat's c o rr ec t. Q Now, one p r o je c t th a t you remembered sp en d in g some tim e on in th e e a r l y to mid 17 0 's was an ex am in ation o f Santophen R, and a t tn a t time th ere were probably other su bstances you were looking a t in t h is e v a lu a tio n p ro cess th a t was g o in g on? A That* s c o r r e c t . Q Would ycxi u n d erta k e t o do some r e s e a r c h on th a t in c o n n e c tio n w ith th e a c t u a l la b o r a to r y t e s t s and experim ents you were d oin g, look a t the lite r a tu r e and th a t kind o f thing? A What we w ould a tte m p t t o do w ould be to attem p t to look a t the inform ation in our f i l e s , a lo o k a t th e l i t e r a t u r e t o s e e w hat in fo r m a tio n may be th e r e t h a t was n o t in our f i l e s . We w ould a tte m p t t o g e t in fo rm a tio n w ith r e s p e c t to who was u sin g i t and J A M E S MAY R E P O R T I N G S E R V I C E > 2i 1 how or what i t was b ein g u sed fo r s o th a t from th a t 2 c o m b in a tio n o f in fo r m a tio n we c o u ld r e a c h some ju d g - ** 3 ments a s t o w hether the product was reason ab ly a c c e p t 4 ab le fo r i t s intended u se, could be used s a fe ly , whether 5 th e r e w ere q u e s t io n s w h ich wcxild a r i s e and we f e l t t h a t 6 we c o u ld d e v e lo p a d d i t i o n a l in fo r m a tio n to answ er th o s e 7 q u e s t io n s . T h a t's th e p e r s p e c t iv e w h ich we tak e t h o s e . 8 Q And t h a t k in d o f in q u ir y may le a d 9 you to the reso u rce lib r a r y and a lite r a tu r e search? 10 I t may le a d you in many d i f f e r e n t d i r e c t i o n s to c o l l e c t 11 t h i s in fo r m a tio n ? 12 A Y e s . 13 Q Now, d id t h a t e v a lu a t io n p r o j e c t 14 th a t you w ere gen era lly in v o lv e d in in th e e a r l y t o mid 15 17 0 * 5 , d id t h a t have an e n d , a t some p o in t in tim e 1 d id t h a t p r o c e s s come co an end? 17 A T h a t's a n e v e r -e n d in g p r o c e s s . I t 18 c o n tin u e s t o t h i s d a y , and p e r i o d i c a l l y we go back 19 and we r e v ie w th in g s th a t we have r e v ie w e d b eca u se 20 o f som ething th a t tr ig g e r s a d e s i r a b i l i t y o f goin g 21 back and lo o k in g a t i t . 22 Q So when we w ere t a l k i n g e a r l i e r a b o u t 23 your jo b b e g in n in g in 171 and c o n t in u in g e s s e n t i a l l y 24 unchanged th ro u g h to d a y , t h i s ev a lu a tio n p r o j e c t r e a l l y 25 i- i s your j o b , t h a t ' s w hat we have b een t a l k i n g a b o u t? JAM ES MAY REPORTING SERVICE ) 9a 1 2 3 4 5 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 l 17 18 19 20 21 22 i 23 I 24 I I 25 I A T hat's the primary a sp ec t o f i t . x Q Now, d u rin g t h is p erio d 1971 through tod ay hav you had o c c a sio n to take a look a t and e v a lu a te an end product th a t was m anufactured a t the N Itro f a c ilit y id e n tifie d as 2,4,5-T ? A I don 't r e c a ll th at I ever did anything w ith 2 ,4 ,5 -T . Q Have you done an y work w ith one or more o f th e d io x in s ? A I ' ve never done te s tin g w ith a d io x in . Q Have you done a n y r e a d in g a b o u t d io x in in con n ection w ith your job? A I've read o f d io x in s, I'v e read about d i o x i n s , and in my comment a b o u t 2 ,4 ,5 - T , I ' v e rea d on 2 ,4 ,5 - T . Q Now, w ould you have been r e l y i n g on the Monsanto lib r a r ie s for those read in gs? A Y e s, we w ould do a s e a r c h th rou g h the lib ra r y to gather the inform ation. Q And you have done t h a t on 2 ,4 ,5 - T ? A To some e x t e n t . Q And y o u 'v e a l s o done t h a t on one or more o f th e d io x in s ? A Yes. Q Which o f th e d io x in s , i f you can JAM ES MAY REPORTING SERVICE I 2 1 rem em ber, have you done t h a t k in d o f r e s e a r c h on th rou gh 2 th e Monsanto R esea rch L ib rary? 3 A I 'v e read so m eth in g or o th er on 4 probably tw enty d iffe r e n t isom ers because there are 5 ta b le s in which they have l i s t e d acu te t o x ic it y of 6 a s e r ie s o f them, and I 'd say probably tw enty item s 7 may ap p ear in some o f th o s e t a b l e s . 8 Q One o f th e more p op u lar o f th e d io x in s 9 ap p ears to be t e t r o c h lo r o d ib e n z o - p a r a - d io x in . Have 10 you done some r e a d in g on th a t? n A Yes, I have. 12 v? Do you r e c a l l when you s t a r t e d t h i s 13 in q u ir y th rou gh th a l i t e r a t u r e in th e r e s e a r c h l i b r a r y 14 nr / > 7 'J_ "l1:'*!'r>*7 15 A A g a in , I ' d s a y p ro b a b ly c a s u a l l y , l when I s a y c a s u a l l y , I mean j u s t s o r t o f a s a g e n e r a l 17 i n t e r e s t and h e a r in g d i s c u s s i o n s a t s c i e n t i f i c m e e tin g s 18 p r o b a b ly th rou gh the mic 170*3 and tow ards the end o f 19 th e 17 0 's and th e p r e s e n t more i n t e n s e . 20 Q So we c o u ld g e n e r a l ly s a y you began 21 some g e n e r a l r e a d in g in th e mid ' 7 0 ' s and a s we ap p ro a ch 22 today i t g e ts a l i t t l e more in t e n s e , r ig h t? 23 A T h a t's c o r r e c t . 24 Q Now, I assum e you d id t h is r ea d in g 25 on company tim e , i s t h a t r ig h t ? JAM ES MAY REPORTING SERVICE # i i, 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 ' A Sin ce I work fo r the company tw entyfour hours a day, seven days a week, the answer is y es. Q Give you an o p p o r tu n ity to make a selfserv in g statem ent. A X do a la rg e amount a t home, I do some a t w ork, s o i t ' s a l l company tim e . Q And was th e r e some p a r t i c u la r r e a so n why you began to take a lo o k a t th e se d io x in s in th e mid 70' s? A W e ll, in th e mid 17 0 's j u s t aa g e n e r a l in t e r e s t in to x ic o lo g y , th a t th ey artt unique ch em ica ls, people were beginning to develop to x ic o lo g y data and they are of g e n era l in t e r e s t o f t o x ic o lo g is t s , so you s t a r t ta lk in g to people a t m eetings and people s ta r t p u b lish in g a r t i c l e s and you read them. Q Did you read abait d io x in s in con n ectio n w ith chloracne in the nid '7 0 f s? A I d o n 't r e c a ll where the chloracne c r e p t in . I t was n ot i n i t i a l l y a ch loracn e q u estio n that I r e c a ll. Q What i n i t i a l l y was th e q u e s tio n -- My u n d e r s ta n d in g i s t h a t your i n t e r e s t in a su b s ta n c e lik e th a t would b e, number on e, o f c o u r se , in i t s e x i s t e n c e , b u t what i t may do t o o r g a n ism s, w hat i t may do to human b e in g s a s a t o x i c o l o g i s t ? J A M E S MAY R E P O R T I N G S E R V I C E ft , 3i $ i ft* 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 c A T hat's c o r r e c t. Q And I assum e you were r e a d in g th e l i t e r a t u r e in th a t fa s h io n in the mid 17C's fo r th a t rea so n because th a t was your f i e l d ? A The i n t e n t o f t o x i c o l o g y i s u l t i m a te ly to p r o t e c t p e o p le . In the ' 7 0 f s when we a r e read in g about i t , i t was predom inantly from a sta n d p o in t o f , you m ight alm ost sa y , i n t e ll e c t u a l c u r io s it y . This is a fa s c in a tin g compound. Inform ation is b ein g developed and appearing in the lit e r a t u r e . I t poses some r a th e r unique p r o p e r t ie s , so i t ' s a g e n e r a l p rof e s s i o n a l i n t e r e s t th a t was where the i n i t i a l rea d in g s 'in d io x in b egan . ^ And when you began your i n i t i a l rea d in g , did you read a n y th in g about i t s t o x i c i t y or o b ser v ed e f f e c t s on human b e in g s ? A As fa r as I can r e c a ll, the e f f e c t s on human b e in g s came in much l a t e r . Q When you w ere r e a d in g in the mid 17 0 ' s , w ere tem p o ra l c o n n e c tio n s b e in g made betw een sym ptom s, p h y s i c a l e f f e c t s on humans, ana e x p o su r e to d io x in ? rR. LOVE: Can I a sk you w hat you mean by 'tem p o ra l'' ? Q (3y Hr. C a lw ell) In tim e. In other words, a fe llo w has been working fo r a p lan t and got J A M E S MAY R E P O R T I N G S E R V I C E 1 3 1 i n t o so m eth in g t h a t may c a r r y a d io x in isom er and a l l 2 of a .sudden he breaks ou t in c h lo r a c n e or co m p la in s 3 about being t ir e d and th a t kind o f th in g . In oth er 4 w ords, what you have th ere is m erely a fa c t of a time 5 r e la t io n s h ip . Did you s t a r t to read about th a t in th e 6 mid ! 7CTs? 7 A Somewhere a lo n g the lin e the a s s o c ia 8 t i o n came i n . My g e n e r a l r e c o l l e c t i o n -- and I w i l l 9 have to back up to s o r t o f put i t in c o n t e x t -- in th e 10 1960's thalidom ide, I have no in te r e s t in thalidom ide, 11 I n ev er worked w ith i t , but i t ' s a unique th in g t h a t 12 b u r s t on the t o x i c o l o g i c a l s c e n e and was m a n ife s te d 13 in the m alform ation o f i n f a n t s . T his b e in g o f g r e a t 14 i n t e r e s t to t o x i c o l o g i s t s . Perhaps n o t as d r a m a t ic a lly 15 or a n a lo g o u s , d io x in s ap p ear on th e s c e n e , h ig h ly p o t e n t , l im p u r itie s in p r o d u c ts, i s th e e f f e c t the p rod u ct or 17 i s i t the im p u r ity and can im p u r it ie s be g o tte n o u t 18 and the p rod u ct k e p t. So from t h a t a n a lo g y w ith 19 th a lid o m id e , t h a t ' s when my i n t e r e s t in d io x in s a p p ea r e d . 20 I t was th a t p o in t o f view from a t o x ic o lo g y sta n d p o in t 21 an i n t e r e s t i n g s u b j e c t , I was n o t r e a d in g w ith any 22 c o n s c io u s n e s s I was g o in g t o g e t any d i r e c t in v o lv e m e n t 23 w ith th e m a t e r ia l. 24 Q And d id the m a t e r ia ls you w ere r e a d in g 25 make o b s e r v a t io n s a b o u t th e p h y s i c a l e f f e c t s o f th e JAM ES MAY REPORTING SERVICE I 1 d i o x i n s on humans or s u s p e c t e d e f f e c t s ? 2 A The e a r l i e s t r e a d i n g s I did in the 3 t o x i c o l o g y j o u r n a l s was d e s c r i b i n g a n im a l e x p e r i m e n t s , 4 and other than, perhaps, a c a s u a l mention in the i n 5 t r o d u c t i o n someone might have made t h e y were not: c o n 6 cerned w ith equating e f f e c t s w ith humans. 7 Q In the readings you began to do in 8 the c o n t e x t we have been t a l k i n g a b o u t in the mid ' 7 0 ' s , 9 did you read about the t o x i c e f f e c t o f d i o x i n s on c e r t a i n 10 a n lina xs ? 11 A Yes, these wore d escrib ed in r e s u l t s of. 1 2 Q And do you r e c a l l what t h o s e were? 13 A V'eLi, the two -- 14 U?.t !.'*/'; Vhat the a r t i c l e s were? 15 Q ' s y Mr. J a l w e l l ) I 1-! s o r r y . The 16 e f f e c t s on th^.se a n i r x ii s t u d i e s , 17 A Te l 1,, the two ones we are d e a l i n g w i t h , 18 p o t e n t i a l c a r c i n o g i c i t y and the p o s s i b l e r e p r o d u c t i v e 19 e f f e c t s , t h o s e were the two a r e a s t h a t most o f t h a t 20 i n i t i a l work was b e in g done. 21 Q How a b o u t the s k i n i r r i t a t i o n , r a b b i t 22 e a r t e s t and t h a t kind of t h i n g ? That was i n c l u d e d in 23 your r e a d i n g s , t o o , wasn't: i t , in t h e c i d * 7 0 ! s? 24 A I s u s p e c t i t w a s , bu t t h o s e a r t i c l e s 25 d o n ' t sta n d o u t . As I s a i d , most o f the ones I r e c a l l JAM ES MAY REPORTING SERVICE * \ 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 were d e a lin g w ith te r a to lo g ic e f f e c t s and the cancer is s u e . Q And d id you r e l y on the M onsanto lib r a r ie s as your source for readings? A W ell, a l l o f them, in clu d in g s c i e n t i f i c d isc u ssio n s and the m eetings w ith o th e rs. Q And in c lu d in g th e M onsanto l i b r a r i e s ? A Yes. Q D uring th e same tim e p e r io d we have bean ta lk in g ab ou t, your kind o f in tro d u ctio n to the d io x in s in the mid 17 0 * s , do you remember r e a d in g a s tu d y by a gen tle;aan named Hoffman e n t i t l e d "R ecen t d > :p eriacn ts w ith H ig h ly T oxic Ha phtha l e n e s d a t e d 1957? A I don't p a r tic u la r ly r e c a ll the a r t ic le . Q Would you know one by Xim alg and S ch u lz, "C hlorinated Arom atic C y lic C sters as Substances R e sp o n sib le fo r the S o - c a lle d C h loracn e," da-ted 1957? A I don *c r e c a l l ch at paper s p e c i f i c a l l y . Q Have you heard the a u th o r s 1 names before^ A Kiraaig I 'v e h eard , and I b e lie v e he w r o te a r e v ie w on c h lo r a c n e . Q And do you know w h eth er you ! ve rea d h is review or not? A I d id read h i s r e v ie w on c h lo r a c n e . Q Do you r e c a l l when you m ight have done that? - ; J A M E S MAY R E P O R T I N G S E R V I C E 3* * [% \ 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A W ithin the l a s t year or two or th r e e . lib r a r y ? Q A And you g o t th a t o u t o f the M onsanto R ight, Q Are you fa m ilia r w ith an a u th or, and I think I'm pronouncing th is wrong, O etel? I thin k it* s 0 -e -t-e -l. A O etel. Q You must have had German, r ig h t ? A I a l s o knew O e t e l. Q A in c o lle g e . Did you stu d y German, in c id e n t a lly ? I once c o n s id e r e d German when I was Q German, r ig h t? Jo you can read stu d ie s w r itte n in A I have read them. Q Are you fa m ilia r w ith or have you read a stu d y by O e te l, " R e su lts o f T e sts on Anim als and C lin ic a l E xperiences w ith H ighly Toxic C hlorinated N aphthalene, a C on trib u tion to the Perna Problem," in 1955? MR. LOVE: L e t me p la c e an o b j e c t io n on the r e c o r d . S t u a r t , i f you can r e l a t e your q u e s tio n s a s to tim e , i t w i l l be v e r y h e lp f u l i f you can a sk him when he read so m eth in g . The r ea so n b e in g sim p ly by v ir t u e i J A M E S MAY R E P O R T I N G S E R V I C E 35 1 1 of his t i t l e , obviously, I spent a great 2 d e a l of time w ith th is gentlem an in terms 3 o f th is case sin ce se v e r a l years a go, and 4 h e ' s done a g r e a t d e a l o f work in my reg a rd 5 a t my r e q u e s t w h ich w ould be a t t o r n e y work 6 product or things prepared in a n tic ip a tio n 7 o f or fo r l i t i g a t i o n . I have no problem 8 w ith your in q u ir in g o f him as to what he 9 did p r io r to th a t tim e or a s to what ha 10 did a f t e r th a t tim e th a t was n o t r e la t e d 11 to th e m a tter w h ich we a r e in v o lv e d , b u t 12 I want you to be a b le to g e t as much a s 13 you can from th e w i t n e s s , but X want you 14 to be s a n s i t i v ; to w hat we a r e t a l k i n g a b o u t, 15 Q (3y Mr, C a lw e ll) On th e s e s t u d i e s 16 I have bean t a lk in g a b o u t, and I'm r e f e r r in g to t h i s tim e 17 fram e we have been t a l k i n g a b o u t, t h i s mid ' 7 0 ' s p e r io d 18 o f tim e when you s t a r t e d your r e a d in g s , and th en w e ' l l 19 ad van ce in tim e u n t i l we g e t t o the p o in t t h a t d i s t r e s s e s 20 Mr. L o v e, Do you remember th e s tu d y j u s t m en tioned by 21 O e te l in t h a t tim e fram e? } 22 A I ' m s u r e I d id n o t read i t in t h a t 23 tim e fra m e. I'm n o t su r e t h a t I e v e r read i t . 24 Q How d id you happen to know O e te l or 25 m eet him? Kas t h i s in c o n n e c tio n w it h your work a t JAM ES MAY REPORTING SERVICE 1 Monsanto? * r. j i 2 '* .y .A This was in con n ection w ith work a t 3 Cyanamida.w it h BASF, h is e m p lo y e r , and Cyanamide had a 4 common i n t e r e s t in some c h e m ic a ls . A c t u a lly , I th in k 5 I met him e a r l ie r a t s c i e n t i f i c m eetin gs in h is c o u n tr y , 6 but th at cemented the r e la tio n s h ip , 7 Q A gain , during th is time period were 8 you fa m ilia r w ith or did you read a study by, is i t 9 Padder, P -a -d -d -e -r , and Bauer, " In d u str ia l In to x ic a 10 t io n Due to P e n ta c h lo r o p h e n o l," d ated 1951? Had t o do 11 w ith l i v e r d is e a s e and p e r ip h e r a l n ervou s sy s te m , lu n g s , 12 s k i n . 13 A I d o n 't r e c a l l r e a d in g th a t a r t i c l e , 14 Q Do you r e c a l l d u rin g t h a t tim e p e r io d 15 r e a d in g any s t u d ie s or rep o rt^ o f s t u d i e s co n d u cted a t 16 th e BASF P la n t in Germany r e g a r d in g a 1953 in c id e n t 17 when an a u t o c la v e r e a c t i o n ran away? 18 A I rve read o f t h a t s t u d y , a t l e a s t , 19 in some a b b r e v ia te d s e s s i o n s . I d o n 't r e c a l l s p e c i f i c a l l y 20 when. I t may have been r e l a t i v e l y r e c e n t l y . 21 Q And l i k e w i s e , d id you g e t t h a t o u t o f 22 th e M onsanto lib r a r y ? 23 A Y e s, s i r . 24 Q Which M onsanto l i b r a r y we t a l k i n g 25 ab ou t? I th in k you s a i d th e r e w ere s e v e r a l . JAM ES MAY REPORTING SERVICE 1 * - 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 V 21 22 23 24 25 A My primary c o n t a c t would be the lib r a r y in the Department of Medicine and Environmental H ealth,w hich is the department that I'm in. That f a c i l i t y has a ccess to a l l other Monsanto lib r a r ie s as backups plus outside se rv ic es. Q Do you have a l i b r a r i a n in t h e r e t h a t ' s in charge of that place? A Yes. Q What i s t h a t p e r s o n ' s name? A Miss Mary D a v i s . 3 How lo n g Lias sh e been w i t h the company, i f you v;now? A he has been in the department some- n e r e s i x or e i g h t y.-:ar:;. has been w it h the company .tuoh l o n g e r than t h a t , our. I'm n o t su r e how much l o n g e r . ^ ohe's a lib r a r ia n , so I assume her work w i t h the company lias been as a l i b r a r i a n , as f a r as you know? A As f a r a s I know. Q Do you know her ap p ro x im a te age? A he became a grandmother S a t u r d a y . V.'e have been k i d d i n g her on t h a t . q You u n d e rs ta n d s h e ' s been w i t h th e company f o r some p e r i o d o f t i m e , then? A Yes. J A M E S MAY R E P O R T I N G S E R V I C E 1 - ----- 3 1 2 1i 3 14 5 6 7 8 9 1 ;1:io 1N 11 1 12 ,13 1 1 14 .11 15 ' 116 1 11 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q Now, i s sh e in charge o f th e lib r a r y a s the lib r a r ia n , is she the head person in the lib r a r y in the Monsanto scheme o f th in g s? A Yes. Q I s th ere some stu d y or group o f s tu d ie s on th e d io x in s t h a t you c o n s id e r t o be a u t h o r i t a t i v e ? A There a r e s e v e r a l r e v ie w s on d i o x i n . A l l c la im to be a u t h o r i t a t i v e , I g u e ss j u s t a s b e a u ty is in the eye of the beholder, the a u th o rita tiv en ess of them depends on th e r e v ie w e r . " r e l y on? Q O.K. In your judgm ent who do you A None o f them and a l l o f them. Most o f them a re good c o m p ila tio n s o f w h a t's in the l i t e r a t u r e , th e y a r e a means o f lo c a t in g what o th e r p e o p le have s a id . Most o f them are a t b e s t a r e c i t a l o f the p o rtio n th a t the review er, th a t p a rticu la r w r ite r , review er, f e l t was im p o r ta n t. S in c e we a l l may put d i f f e r e n t a s s e s s m ents on t h i n g s , one has t o go b a c k , in my o p in io n , lo o k - a t the th in gs and see what the o r ig in a l author a c tu a lly s a i d , how j u s t i f i e d h i s s ta te m e n ts w ere in term s o f h i s in fo rm a tio n , tr y to s o r t out th e .o p in io n from the f a c t and th en su p erim p ose o n e 's own o p in io n s t o make i t au th oritative. Q Are th ere any in d iv id u a ls th a t you */ J A M E S MAY R E P O R T I N G S E R V I C E 3 1 ,f i7 have id e n tifie d through th a t process you have ju s t d es- 1i[ 2 ^ f* ^ i:b ed tttS ' you r e l y on and c o n s id e r to be a u t h o r i t a t i v e ? iii 3 i4 A Can X b rea k th e q u e s tio n in two p ie c e s ? Q Sure. 5 A I r e l y on th e p u b lish ed l i t e r a t u r e . ;6 :7 T hat w ould in c lu d e Symposium V olum es. The N a t io n a l I n s t i t u t e s o f H ealth has symposium. There is the Mono- 8 i i9 1 i 10 11 12 13 14 - 15 16 17 18 - 19 20. graph e d ite d by R inata Kimbrough, th ere are books by Young, a l l o f w h ich a r e u s e f u l f o r g e t t i n g a t infdrma.'4^t' ;*\ \r` .. . **':>_/.ir:" ; :: ; t i o n . There i s a tw o-volum e s e t p u t ou t by th e VA- .ri*^y*~ *'V the h e a r in g s, and th ere is a two-volume s e t put o u t by V'- th e cou n terp art o f the N a tio n a l R esearch League ift, , Canada. A ll o f those are good sou rces fo r lo c a tin g the lite r a tu r e . Perhaps, the most o b je c tiv e , and I would c o n sid e r a u t h o r it a t iv e , would be the two docu- ments by th e Canadian N a tio n a l R esearch C o u n cil. I t ' s not q u ite the N ation al Research C ou ncil, but i t ' s the e q u iv a le n t o f th a t in Canada. I would th in k th a t's p r o b a b ly this m o st, in my ju d gm en t, t h a t ' s th e m ost au th oritative. li 21 22 Q How d id you r e a c h t h a t c o n c lu s io n ? A I t ' s a reading o f docum ents, th e ir ! 23 t IU ; 25 i d e sc r ip tio n o f the way th ey tr e a t th su b je c t. X th in k th ey are o b je c tiv e , I th in k th ey lo o k a t i t from a l l Issu es and reach c o n c lu sio n s which are d e fe n s ib le . I t ' s J A M E S MAY R E P O R T I N G S E R V I C E 40 i 1 a Judgment. 2 : Q In your r ea d in g o f th a t Canadian 3 N ation al Research League, or whatever i t i s , have you 4 read rep orts or stu d ies or views o f any anim al stu d ies 5 c o n n e c te d w it h one or more o f th e d io x in s ? 6 A A ll o f the so u rces I mentioned have 7 'anim al s tu d ie s d escrib ed in them. 8 Q A g a in ,r fe r r in g to the Canadian 9 N a tio n a l, what to x ic e f f e c t s on anim als have you read 10 ab ou t r e la t e d to 2 , 3 ,7,8-TCDD? 11 A I t has been shown to be h ig h ly t o x ic 12 to c e r t a i n a n im a l s p e c i e s in s i n g l e d o s e s , c o n s id e r a b ly 13 l e s s t o x i c t o o t h e r s . I t has a V7id e v a r i a b i l i t y on 14 t o x i c i t y in s h o r t-te r m e x p o su re to a v a r i e t y o f a n im a ls . 15 I t has been fe d fo r e x te n d e d p e r io d s o f tim e t o r a t s . 1 T here*s some d isa g reem en t a s to th e c o n c lu s io n s o f th e 17 s t u d i e s t h a t w ere d o n e. They produce c a n c e r In lo n g 18 term f e e d in g s t u d i e s in r a t s . Some p e o p le c la im th e r e 19 i s a h ig h e r l e v e l t h a t has n o t produced c a n c e r and some 20 p e o p le d is p u te th a t. A t r e l a t i v e l y low d o ses i t pro 21 d u ces m a lfo rm a tio n s in pups and r a t s . A g a in , the q u e s 22 t i o n o f w h eth er or n o t th e r e i s an e f f e c t l e v e l , low 23 e f f e c t l e v e l . So th e i n t e r p r e t a t i o n o f th e f in d in g s i s 24 q u i t e v a r i a b l e . 25 Q \n y e v id e n c e o f l i v e r damage? JAM ES MAY REPORTING SERVICE # 1 1* 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 n 12 13 14 15 16 1 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A Y es, th ey produced liv e r damage. Q Any e v id e n c e o f some d e le t e r io u s e f f e c t s on th e enzyme system s o f anim als? A There are e f f e c t s on enzyme sy stem s. I'm not sure th ey are d e le te r io u s . Q And how a b o u t th e immune sy s te m , you \ read about any e f f e c t s in th is Canadatan N a tio n a l Research League? A There have been e ff e c t s reported to th e immune sy ste m . Q And w hat e f f e c t s w ere th o s e t h a t you have read about in th is Canadian N a tio n a l Research? A The s u s c e p t i b i l i t y o f a n im a ls i n f e c - t i c n s w ith o th e r organ ism s a p p ea rs to be in c r e a s e d on occas ion. Q In t h is same r ea d in g put ou t by th e Canadian N a tio n a l R esearch League, an yth in g th ere about human a c t i o n and th * 2 ,3,7,8-T C D D ? A There a r e r e f e r e n c e s to some o f th e s t u d i e s r e p o r te d on p e o p le in d u s tr ia l l y e x p o se d to a c c id e n ts o f one s o r t or an oth er where in r e tr o s p e c t i t ' s b e l ie v e d t h a t 2 , 3 , 7 , 8 or some d io x in s may have been in v o lv e d . Q What k in d s o f p h y s i c a l e f f e c t s a r e su sp ected in those? ; J A M E S MAY R E P O R T I N G S E R V I C E 4 1 A The o n ly c o n s i s t e n t f in d in g i s th e 2 rep ort of chloracne. 3 Q Are th ere any in c o n s is te n t fin d in g s? 4 A W e ll, when we s a y i n c o n s i s t e n t f i n d i n g s , 5 th e term I u s e /c o n s is t e n f c Mi f you lo o k a t the d i f f e r e n t 6 r e p o r ts , v i r t u a l l y a l l o f them w i l l d is c u ss c h lo r a c n e . 7 One may s a y so m eth in g was o b serv ed and some o th e r r e p o r t 8 d o e s n ' t m en tion t h a t or f in d so m e th in g d i f f e r e n t . The 9 common th rea d i s th e c h lo r a c n e . There a re in d iv i d u a l 1 0 th in g s r e p o r te d in d i f f e r e n t s t u d i e s , and how v a l i d 11 or rep rod ucib le they are is h ig h ly q u estio n a b le, 1 2 Q And has t h e r e been some l i v e r damage 13 r e p o r te d in humans? 14 A I'm n o t su re on t h a t s u b j e c t . I 15 b e l i e v e th e r e may have been some t r a n s i e n t l i v e r damage 16 s h o r t l y a f t e r e x p o su r e . 17 Q And l i p i d me ta h o lism ? 18 A There have been a n a ly s e s done on 19 l i p i d m e ta b o lism , b u t I c a n ' t r e c a l l s p e c i f i c a l l y r i g h t 20 now w h ich way th e y w e n t. 2 1 Q How a b o u t an y e f f e c t on enzyme sy ste m s f 22 endoplasm ic reticulum ? 23 A I d o n 't th in k th o s e m easurem ents have 24 b een done in humans. 25 Q How a b o u t th e immune sy stem ? JAM ES MAY REPORTING SERVICE I \ % 1 2 <3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 i A There was a newspaper account r e c e n tly o f e f f e c t s on immune s y s te m s . Q I'm ta lk in g about the Canadian R esearch League. A In humans, I d o n 't b e lie v e I r e c a ll r e a d in g o f th e e f f e c t on immune sy stem s in humans. Q What a b o u t a n y th in g r e l a t i v e t o c a n c e r in these papers? A In terras o f c o n s is te n c y , th e r e ' s no r e p o r t o f c a n c e r . There may be one or two in s t a n c e s w here th e re i s a s ta te m e n t where a c a n c er or two may have o ccu rred . There a r e some newspaper a c c o u n ts , a g a in , o f can cers, but they are not q u ite the sane league as the s c ie n t if ic lite r a tu r e , a t le a s t, I don't think i t is . MR. LOVE; S t u a r t , you want to take a b rea k . We have been a t t h i s a l i t t l e o v e r an hour. (Whereupon a tort r e c e s s was ta k en , a fte r which the fo llo w in g proceedings were had:) Q (By Mr. C a lw e ll) C o n tin u in g on a b o u t the Canadian N a tio n a l R esearch docum ents, do you r e c a ll a n y symptoms th a t you read a b o u t t h a t have some tem p oral c o n n e c tio n w ith th e d io x in exp osu re in humans? MR. LOVE; S t u a r t , I w ant to a s k you J A M E S MAY R E P O R T I N G S E R V I C E l 4 a g a in about the word "te m p o ra l." I knew .g e n e r a lly what I t means, but are you speak ing o f acute as opposed to long-term . E v e ry th in g w ould have some tem poral r e l a tionsh ip to everything e ls e . Q (By Hr. C a lw e ll) W ell, a s I under stan d i t , i f you*re lo o k in g a t , a s a t o x i c o l o g is t , you have someone who may be sym ptom free or a t l e a s t g iv in g no c o m p la in ts, h e 's ex p o sed to some su b s ta n c e , fo llo w in g th a t ex p o su re you have some c o m p la in ts . Now, th e r e may or may n o t be a tru e c a u s a l c o n n e c tio n betw een th e e x posure and the com p lain ts, but n e v e r th e le s s, you have to look a t th a t tim e r e la tio n sh ip as a fa c to r in th at inquiry, th a t, s accu rate, is n 't it? A That would be rea so n a b ly a c c u r a te , Q So my q u e s t io n t o you i s in the C anadian N a t io n a l R esea rch p a p e r s , have you been made aware o f symptoms t h a t humans e x h i b i t th a t may have su ch a rela tio n sh ip to exposure to a substance th a t's su s pected o f being one o f the d io x in s , s p e c if ic a lly , 2 , 3 , 7 , 8 A W ith the e x ce p tio n of c h lo ra c n e , the in d iv id u a ls a f t e r th e e p is o d e s have had some c o m p la in ts. I d o n 't r e c a ll the s p e c if ic d e ta ils o f the com p lain ts. They a re r a th e r g e n e r a liz e d c o m p la in ts. Going back to your e a r lie r statem en t, though, to a sse ss those properly, JAM ES MAY REPORTING SERVICE I th in k one would have to take n o te o f were th ose com- p la in ts or sim ila r type o f gen eral com plaints ev id en t among th e ta p eo p le or have th e y v o ic e d them p r io r to th e e p iso d e , the freq u en cy and v a r ie ty of them, are they sim ila r to the kinds o f com plaints a group o f th a t s iz e would have had p rio r to the e p iso d e . So th a t i f one was lo o k in g fo r th in g s to t i e to g e th e r , I don' t r e c a ll nor do X b e lie v e th a t there are any com plaints r e l a t e d t o phenoxya c e t ^c . Q Other than the chloracn e? A Other than the ch lo ra cn e, Q have you not? But you have read o f r ep o rted com p lain ts A Yes. Q Aches and pains in the ex trem ities? A Aches and p a in s,tir e d n e s s . Q Irrita b ility ? A (Nods head a f f i r m a t i v e l y .) Q Sleep disorders? A Y es. A ll o f which are evid en ced by any p op u lation a t any time or o th er. Q Loss o f lib id o ? A One o f th e h a r d e s t t h in g s t o g e t from people is an accu rate sex h is to r y . There is a tendency to over- or underexaggerate. JAM ES MAY REPORTING SERVICE % 1 1 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 X 21 22 23 24 25 i Q And hew d i d you have o c c a s i o n t o become aware of it? A He was making t h e s t u d y a t t h e r e q u e s t of the Medical Department. Q And were you i n v o l v e d in t h a t r e q u e s t ? A No, I was n o t . s tudy? Q Did you have any connection w ith the A No, I did n o t. Q Did you do any work w ith the lite r a tu r e on 2,4,5-!*T in c o n n e c t i o n w i t h t h a t s t u d y ? A I did nothing in connection with that s tudy. k Did you do a n y th in g in con n ectio n w ith the work force a t N itro p ertain in g to 2,4,5-T? A I'v e never d e a lt with the work force a t N i t r o on any i s s u e . Q Are you f a m i l i a r w it? a study t h a t has been described in the documents, M^n^a-ito documents, a s t h e DMEH S t u d y ? A I w o u ld have t o know V7hich DMEH s t u d y b e c a u s e DMEH i s an a c r o n y m f o r D e p a r t m e n t o f M e d i c i n e and Environmental Health. Q A DMEH s t u d y on the N i t r o p o p u l a t i o n , Nitro Plant population? . . JAMES MAY REPORTING SERVICE > 41 1 A I d o n 't believe I'v e ever seen the 2 actu al study. 3 Q Are you aware t h a t a s tu d y was u n d e r 4 taken? 5 A Yes. I ju s t said so e a r l ie r . 6 Q Now, i s t h a t t h e S u s k i n d s t u d y ? 7 A T hat's the Suskind study, insofar as 8 I kn ow. 9 Q And how do you know t h a t ? 10 A B e ca u se i t was a g e n e r a l d i s c u s s i o n 11 t o p i c i n t h e M e d i c a l D e p a r t m e n t . 12 Q That would be Dr. Roush? 13 A Dr. Roush i s o u r M e d i c a l D i r e c t o r a n d 14 h e a d o f t h e d e p a r t m e n t . 15 Q And he t o l d you c h a t t h e DMEH s t u d y 16 i s i n f a c t t h e S u s k i n d s t u d y a s i c p e r t a i n s t o N i t r o ? 17 A I ' m n o t s u r e he made t h a t s t a t e m e n t 18 d i r e c t l y , b u t wed i d h a v e p e r i o d i c s t a f f m e e t i n g s , a n d 19 t h e d i s c u s s i o n o f w h a t ' s h a p p e n i n g i s made a t one o f 20 th o se d e p a r t m e n t a l m e e tin g s , I presume. So I have an 21 awareness of i t , but I'v e not been involved in i t and 22 I 'm not aware of the s p e c ific d e t a i l s of the study. 23 Q And i f I u n d e r s t a n d y o u r t e s t i m o n y , 24 y o u ' v e n e v e r done a n y r e s e a r c h i n t o t h e 2 , 4 , 5 - T p r o d u c t 25 o r a n y t e s t s on t h e N i t r o 2 , 4 , 5 - T p r o d u c t l o o k i n g a t th e * JAM ES MAY REPORTING SERVICE * 1 lit e r a t u r e or the Monsanto f i l e s , anyth ing lik e th at? 2 MR. LOVE: I'm n o t su re I u n d e rsta n d 3 "i th e q u e s t io n . I f you do u n d erstan d th e 4 q u e stio n , you can answer i t . I d id n 1 1 5 understand i t . Q (By Mr. C a lw e ll) D id you u n d ersta n d 7 what I'm asking? . 8 A I g a th ered th e r e a re two p a r ts tc 9 th e q u e s t io n . One i s I d id n o t do an y t e s t i n g on 2 , 4 , 5 -T 10 q o .x . 11 A The o th e r o n e , w h ich 1 * * 7 0 s a i d e a r l i e r 12 I'm aware o f but I ' v e n o t been in v o lv e d in th e N it r o 13 s tu d y or th e S u sk in d s tu d y . 14 q O ii you e v e r s e a r c h M onsanto f i l e s 15 fo r a n y t e s t r e s u l t s or Lab r e s u l t s on 2 ,4 ,5 - T produced 16 a t th e N it r o P la n t? 17 MR. LOVE; I'm g o in g to o b j e c t to 18 th e q u e s t io n u n le s s you r e l a t e i t to a 19 s p e c i f i c t in e p e r io d on th e grounds t h a t I 20 m en tioned e a r l i e r . 21 Q (By Mr. C a lw e ll) D u ring th e p e r io d 22 o f tim e t h a t you were em ployed a t M onsanto. 23 HR. L^VE: You want i t up t o and i n 24 c lu d in g today? 25 MR. CALWELL: Uh huh ( y e s ) . JAM ES MAY REPORTING SERVICE ft MR. LOVE; I'm g o in g to i n s t r u c t th e w itn ess not to answer u n less i t r e la te s to in fo r m a tio n p r io r to March o f 1981. Now, w ith regard to the tim e period subsequent to t h a t , I w ould in s t r u c t him n o t to answ er th a t q u e s tio n on th e b a s is o f a t t o r n e y - c l i e n t p r iv ile g e and work product. Q (By Mr. C a lw e ll) O.K. You u n d e rsta n d what your law yer's done there? A (Nods head a f f i r m a t i v e l y .) Q Do you a g r e e n o t t o answ er? You a g r e e to take h is in str u c tio n and not answer the question? A Can I go o f f th e r e c o r d a m inute? MR. LOVE; I'm i n s t r u c t i n g you n o t to answer w ith regard to the m atters I m entioned s p e c if ic a lly . As to th in g s you've done f o r me a t my r e q u e s t w it h r eg a r d t o th is l it i g a t i o n , I'm in s tr u c tin g you not to answer h is q u e stio n . As to th in g s you have done p rior to th a t fo r the company, I would in s tr u c t you to answer h is q u e stio n . MR. CALWELL: Now, y o u 'r e u s in g '8 1 as the cu to ff? MR. LOVE; I'm u s in g th e d a te o f th e filin g . JAM ES MAY REPORTING SERVICE I MR. CALLWELL: March o f '81? MR. LOVE: March o f 1981, a s I r e c a l l . I f I ' m wrong, c o r r e c t me. MR. CALWELL: I th in k i t was a b o u t March. \ MR. LOVE; T hat was the d a te o f th e f i r s t of th ese f ilin g s o f these law su its in N itro. MR. CALWELL: So i f I u n d e rsta n d you r o b je c tio n , you' re in s tr u c t in g him n o t to answer qu estion s w ith regard to anything he has done fo r you in con n ection w ith th is l a w s u i t , w h ich w ou ld have been on or a f t e r th e f i l i n g d a te w h ich we a g r e e was a b o u t March o f 181? MR. LOVE; T h a t' s c o r r e c t . Q (By Mr. C a lw e ll) You u n d e rsta n d what the d e a l 1a th e r e , D octor? A I 've not looked fo r or gone in to the m e d ic a l f i l e s on th e N it r o c a s e . T h a t' s a human h e a l t h s i t u a t i o n w h ich i s n o t my p r o v in c e , Q O.K. Now, when you sa y on the N itr o c a s e , you mean t h i s l i t i g a t i o n , i s t h a t r ig h t ? A When I s a y N i t r o c a s e , I'm t a l k i n g about your q u estion where you sa id the N itro study. JAM ES MAY REPORTING SERVICE fc Q So a s o f March, 1 9 81, you n ev er made any in q u iry in to the company f i l e s or lite r a tu r e fo r anything p ertain in g to the N itro P la n t, is th a t rig h t? A That' s co rrect. Q And th e 2 ,4 ,5 - T p rod u ct? A T hat's co rrect. V Q S in ce 1981 has the company in s tr u c te d you to do that? MR. LOVE; L e t me once a g a in in t e r p o s e an o b je c tio n so th ere w on 't be any m isunder stan ding. I f you're ask ing about m atters other than fo r a purpose other than the N itro litig a tio n -- MR. CALWELL: Uh huh ( y e s ) . MR. LOVE: - - I have no o b j e c t io n to the q u estio n . MR. CALWELL: T h a t's th e q u e s t io n . MR. LOVE; I f h e ' s been i n s t r u c t e d b y th e company pursuant to the N itr o l i t i g a t i o n , I w ould t e l l yrn n o t t o answ er th e q u e s t io n . I f you have been i n t o th e m a tte r th a t Mr. C a lw e ll's asked you about fo r any purpose \r * L- * " * - other than any l i t i g a t i o n , then I would in s tr u c t you to answer the q u estio n . A I e le c t not to answer the q u estion . ........... " V a m e s W a y R E P O R T I N G ' s e r v i c e I J 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 F 13 14 I 15 ; i6 !i 18 19 Pt 20 21 22 23 24 25 MR. LOVE: E it h e r you have or you : * <v haven* t , I th in k i t does require an answ er. I f you* re s a t i s f i e d , th at* 9 f i n e . A W ell, other than w ith resp ect to lit ig a t io n , I have not looked a t the lite r a tu r e for 2 ,4 ,5 -T . Q (By Hr. C a lw e ll) Now, have you been made aware - - T h is i s p r io r t o *81 - - in your jo b a s a t o x i c o l o g i s t w ith your company -- L e t roe a s k yen some p r e p a r a to r y q u e s t io n s a b o u t t h a t . We have been c u l l i n g you th e t o x i c o l o g i s t and you g o t t h i s jo b w ith th e com pany as a t o x ic o lo g is t . In an o r g a n iz a tio n a l se n se , how do you g e t your w o rk i Does i t a l l fu n n e l in t o you from t h e s e v a r io u s o p e r a tin g u n i t s ? Do you have a r e sp o n sib ility for a p articu lar, lik e , In d u strial C hem icals or some p a r t ic u la r a r e a , or i s t h a t a companywide problem? A We have r e s p o n s i b i l i t y f o r a l l o f the com panies1 to x ico lo g y . Q So i f there is a to x ic o lo g ic a l in q u iry or problem o f s u f f ic ie n t n agn itu d e, i t w i l l ev en tu a lly g e t to your o f f ic e , then, righ t? A That*s g e n e r a lly tru e. Q Now, p r io r to *81 had your o f f i c e been made aware o f a n y w orker c o m p la in ts t h a t N i t r o JAM ES MAY REPORTING SERVICE ft # V. l 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 i* 10 11 ' 12 13 1 14 1 i 15 16 17 18 17 20 21 22 23 24 25 i iC w ork ers may have had in th e ' 5 0 ' s , 16 0 's and ' 7 0 's p erta in in g to chloracne? A In my tim e a t M onsanto s t a r t i n g in 1971 I*ve n ot had a com plaint add ressed s p e c if ic a lly to ch loracn e. whether there were com plaints r e g iste r e d w ith th e company in th e *40* s or 150* s or p r io r t o t h a t I do n o t know. Q B ut w hat y o u 'r e t e l l i n g me i s your departm ent, your T oxicology Departm ent -- Does i t have an o f f i c i a l name? You may have a lr e a d y t o l d me and I'v e forgotten. A I t ' s the Department o f M edicine and Environm ental H ealth, which c o n s is ts o f se v e r a l u n i t s , one o f w hich I would c a l l a s e c t io n on to x ic o lo g y is a part o f the Department o f M edicine and Environm ental H ealth. Q So i f we c a l l i t th e s e c t i o n on t o x i c o l o g y , w e ' l l know w hat we a r e t a l k i n g ab ou t? A T h at's a good term. Q Has anyone in your d ep artm en t in t h i s s e c t i o n on t o x i c o l o g y , t h a t you know o f , perform ed any work or in q u ired in to , examined or in v e s tig a te d any worker com plaints r e la te d to the 2 ,4 ,5 -T product a t the N itr o P la n t and any h e a lth c o m p la in ts, chloracne and th o s e o th e r g e n e r a l symptoms and c o m p la in ts we t a lk e d a b o u t J A M E S MAY R E P O R T I N G S E R V I C E ` , 5  % i1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 "V e a r lie r , fa tig u e , aches and pains? -v ;-.A I do n o t r e c a l l t h a t we have had a compla i i i t ' o f t h a t n a tu r e r e f e r r e d to my s e c t i o n a t the tim e X have been w ith the company. Q Are you aware th a t th ere were com p lain ts p rior to the time th a t you got there? \ MR. LOVE : C om p lain ts t o th e s e c t i o n on t o x ic o lo g y ? MR. CALWEIX: Y e s. Q (By Mr. C a lw e ll) Any w r it in g s or m em oranda,whatever, th a t m ight appear in your record s? A W all, I'm not aware th a t any com plaints were sed e to the s e c t io n on t o x ic o lo g y a t any tim e. New, w h eth er th e r e w ere c o m p la in ts made to the M ed ica l D e- p artaien t or to th e p h y s ic ia n s p r io r to my tim e , th a t w ould be c o n j e c t u r e on my p a r t. Q I j u s t w ant to know w hat you know. A I don* t have a n y know ledge t h a t t h i s - was done. Q And Iv a n t to make su r e we u n d e r s ta n d , when I s a y c o m p la in t s , I d o n 't mean i t ' s a w orker who wrote you a letter or c a lle d you up, but a problem or an is s u e r e la t in g to c h lo ra c n e or some o th er co m p la in ts th a t m ight r e la te to th 2 ,4 ,5 - 1 product or the N itro P lan t a b o u t c h lo r a c n e and th o s e g e n e r a l symptoms t h a t we t a lk e d ; J A M E S MAY R E P O R T I N G S E R V I C E 5i 1` 1 about. 2 A I don't r e c a ll th a t's directed to 3 my group or p e o p le w orking f o r me, a co m p la in t o f th e 4 n atu re th a t you 're sayin g the N itr o people have had or 5 are com plaining t h is , t h is , th a t or the other th in g . 6 Q Did you lea rn th a t com plaints o f th a t v 7 n a tu r e w ere made t o th e M e d ic a l D epartm ent when you had 8 th ese b r ie fin g s w ith Dr. Roush and so forth ? 9 MR. LOVE: Once a g a in , can you r e l a t e 10 your q u e s t io n t o a s p e c i f i c tirae? 11 ^ (By Mr. C a lw e ll) P r io r t o *81. 12 A I d o n 't r e c a l l t h a t c o m p la in ts o f 13 c h lo r a c n e or some o f th e ^th er symptoms we a r e t a lk in g 14 a b o u t have been d is c u s s e d a s r e l a t e d to th e N it r o w ork ers 15 in th e tim e t h a t I have been in the M ed ic a l D epartm ent, l Q So a s fa r a s you know, th e n , th e f i r s t 17 tim e t h i s c h lo r a c n e , 2 , 4 , 5 - T , d i o x i n - r e la ted is s u e came 18 up in your dep artm en t was a f t e r *81, th e n , or in th e 19 M e d ic a l D epartm ent? 20 A In 1949 -- h ere I'm ta lk in g p a r tly 21 from , I g u e s s , a lm o s t h e a r s a y e v id e n c e , b u t d i s c u s s i o n s 22 t h a t go around - - In 1949 Ur. b u sk in d lo o k e d a t th e , 23 c h lo r a c n e w o r k e r s. That w a s ,q u o t e , p a s t h i s t o r y , in a 24 s e n s e . Then he was com m ission ed t o lo o k a t th o s e w o rk ers 25 a g a in a b o u t t h i r t y y e a r s l a t e r . So t h a t from th e i n i t i a l JAM ES MAY REPORTING SERVICE t 1 ep isod e in '49 u n til the q u estion surfaced as is going 2 down more r e c e n t l y f o r t h a t se co n d lo o k , I d o n 't r e c a l l 3 th a t th ere was any d is c u ssio n about the N itro ep iso d e 4 or chloracrie or such a t N itr o . 5 Q I t was j u s t a non-problem , as fa r as 6 you know, in the M edical Department or your departm ent? v 7 A I was n o t aware o f any issu e in v o lv in g 8 that su b ject a t th at tim e. 9 Q Is th a t the kind of th in g th at the 10 T o x ic o lo g y D epartm ent w ou ld be c a l l e d in on I f th e r e 11 had been? 12 A I f I were to go oack to *49 and, s a y , 13 tn e r e a c to r -law up new, we w ould have been in v o lv e d . 14 p ro b a b ly w ould n o t have p h y s i c a l l y v i s i t e d the s c e n e 15 or lo o k ed a t p e o p le , b u t we p ro b a b ly w ould have been 16 in v o lv e d in d i s c u s s i o h s and w h atever o th e r a c t i o n s we 17 m ight have ta k e n . We p ro b a b ly w ould have p a r t i c i p a t e d . 18 Q You knew th e r e was a c h lo r a c n e problem 19 .a t N it r o th r o u g h o u t th e p e r io d o f tiuie t h a t th e y manu 20 fa ctu re d 2 , 4 , 5 -T , did you not? 21 A I was n o t a t M onsanto d u r in g th e 22 tim e , a s f a r a s I now - - I'm n o t su r e when th e y sto p p e d 23 m a n u fa c tu r in g , b u t I th in k th e y sto p p e d m a n u fa ctu rin g 24 in th e com pany, s o i t was much l a t e r in tim e than I e v e n 25 r e a l i z e d th e y had ev en m an u factu red 2 , 4 , 5 -T . So I f d JAM ES MAY REPORTING SERVICE 1 1 have to sa y n o , I was n o t aware o f the problems th ey 2 had during the manufacture o f 2 ,4 ,5 -T . 3 Q I f you a c ce p t as true that th ere were 4 reported chloracne cases and other com plaints in v o lv in g 5 fa tig u e and aches and pain s and s le e p d iso r d e r s from the w orkers who were in v o lv e d in th e 2 ,4 ,5 - T p r o c e ss 7 \ a t N i t r o , ?.s th a t the k in d o f problem t h a t th e T o x i 8 c o lo g y Department would be c a lle d in on? 9 A We w ould be a sk e d to c o n t r ib u t e t o 10 th e r e s o lu tio n o f the is s u e , yerj. 1 1 Q And d o es M ouiantc have a p o l i c y w here 12 a w orker who has b*=eu expo..-*-' to r. s u b s t a n c e , su ch a s - 13 2 , 4 , 5 - 7 , and then b e g in s to e x h i b i t p h y s ic a l symptoms 14 and comp la i ts ab o u t c o n tin u e d i-.rpnrurs, i s i t the p o l i c y 15 t o rem ove th e n from e x p o su re -r to `.aave them t h e r e , or l i s th e r e a p o l i c y a t a l l ? 17 MR. : . : :o u p.. a k in g o f th e p o l i c y 18 tod ay, in 194? or - peri od in between? 19 Q (3y Mr. i a l ^ l l ; T e l l , tod ay f i r s t . 20 A rihen you s a y p o l i c y , I'm n o t s u r e , 21 p o l i c y or p r a c t ic e ? 22 . . e u , pracc..^ e . 23 A I t f s th e cor.imitrjent o f th e cocapany, 24 i t ' s th e p o l i c y o f the company t o p r o v id e a h e a l t h y , s a f e 25 w o r k p la c e . Now, how t h a t ' s im plem ented in term s o f JAM ES MAY REPORTING SERVICE I 1 s p e c i f i c s I r e a l l y d o n ' t know and i t pro b ab ly does 2 v ary in i t s a p p lic a tio n in d if f e r e n t parts of the company. 3 B u t my f u n c t i o n i n t h e t o x i c o l o g y end i s t o a s s i s t i n 4 c h a t g o a l o f p r o v i d i n g a h e a l t h y , s a f e w o r k n l a c e f o r em 5 ployees . \ ' "} I s i t a p r i n c i p l e o f t h e f i e l d o f 7 toxicology and i t s r e la te d I n d u s tr ia l hygiene f i e l d not 8 t o r e e x p o s e someone who has bean exposed t o a h a r m f u l 9 substance l? a t a l l possible? 1 0 \ I ' l l go b a _V. The s u b s t a n c e p e r s e 11 i s n ' t oar n r i t . I t 1* the c o n d i t i o n " ** e x p o su r e t h a t may 12 K2 h a r \ f u l . And i f y o u ' r e ?"igni^.-nt o f % h a r m f u l e x - 13 o^ure c o r d i t i o n , t h e n the e f f o r t , t h e g o a l would be 14 o m i t i g t t e , m o d i f y , a I e r , t o e l i m i n a t e th e harm 15 a s s o c i a t e d .I t k t h e e x p o s u r e . 16 Q l o u t e - t i f i t i d e a r l i e r , I b e l i r - v e , 17 t h a t one. o f t h e v a y v tho t you ,:.r c. - - i c o l o g is t esn 18 become aware of a U _--s - j __ r\- i'4*^a3 *UV-4.i- j +-W< 19 ver - *! ' Js t h a t y 20 .d in g ^ho th e r vou h a .v - i a t o x ic o 21 me ta n fo r i 'I:ltr 't7 y oti have to '1 22 when a s u s p e c t e d h e a l t h r i s k , ev en th o u g h i t rosy n o t be 23 p r o v e n a b s o l u t e l y , r e a c h e s s u c h p r o p o r t i o n s t h a t you m u s t 24 a s a t o x i c o l o g i s t a d v i s e n o f u r t h e r e x p o s u r e ? I s t h e r e 25 some b a l a n c i n g t h a t g o e s on t h e r e ? I s t h e r e some JAM ES MAY REPORTING SERVICE ~\ " X 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 ** 21 22 23 24 25 p r in c ip le th a t you as a to x ic o lo g is t follow to t a t th at issu e? MR. LOVE; Once a g a in , I ' d a s k you to c la r if y i f you 're speaking in terms o f today or 1949. MR, CALWELL: I'm sp e a k in g in term s v of h is fie ld gen erally. Q (By Mr. C a lw e ll) Is th a t the k in d o f a judgm ent t h a t a t o x i c o l o g i s t has t o make? A Your q u e s tio n 's k in d o f vague and broad. I f you're ask ing are there c le a r ly defined p r in c ip le standards th a t one a p p lie s and s a y s , s to p , t h is has gone too fa r , I'm n ot co g n iza n t o f any. Because of the v a r ie ty of the m u ltip lic ity of is s u e s , q u estio n s and in c lu d in g . serio u sn ess o f e f f e c t s , there i s a h o st o f fa c to r s th a t go in . I f th ere was a c le a r human h a z a r d , you know, i f a man s p i l l e d a c h e m ic a l on h is f in g e r t ip s and dropped dead, you would o b v io u sly take trem endously str in g e n t precautions th e r e a fte r . But when y o u 're n o t d e a lin g w ith su ch dram atic e v e n ts and, you know, what p o in ts do you use to d ecid e t h i s , t h a t and th e o th e r t h in g . So t h e r e 's many h o sts o f th in g s in th ere. I t ' s alm ost im possible to g et a sim ple or d e fin itiv e answer to a q u estion o f th at nature. Q So i f I understand what you're sa y in g , i J A M E S MAY R E P O R T I N G S E R V I C E \ 6 1 then, i t ' s part o f the to x ic o lo g ic a l d isc ip lin e for you 2 t o lo o k a t .th o se se p a r a te f a c t o r s and a t some p o in t 3 in tim e make a judgm ent in a g iv e n c a s e , "We a r e a t a 4 p o in t w here th e r i s k i s no lo n g e r a c c e p t a b le and we 5 must get th ese people out o f there"? 6 A R ig h t . You h i t two w ord s. One i s 7 i t ' s a ju d g m en ta l s c i e n c e t o a la r g e e x t e n t . And when 8 you s a y th e r i s k i s a c c e p t a b l e , we can go through a lo n g 9 recourse of w hat's accep tab le r is k , but those elem ents 10 do g e t s t r o n g l y in t e r t w in e d in e v e r y d e c i s i o n o f t h a t 11 na t u r e . 12 q And in th e c o u r se o f your em ploym ent 13 a t M onsanto have you had o c c a s io n to make su ch jud gm en ts? 14 A A g a in , you mean w ith r e s p e c t to r i s k s ? 15 Q Y es. A su b s ta n c e t h a t you d e c id e , 16 p e r h a p s , p e o p le a r e b e in g e x p o se d to by w h a tev e r means 17 and you have had t o make a judgm ent and sa y t h a t th e 18 r i s k i s no lo n g e r a c c e p t a b l e . 19 A No. In my c a p a c i t y from th e e n v ir o n 20 m en ta l a s s e s s m e n t schem e we have sto p p e d b e fo r e we pro 21 d u ced or e n t e r t a in e d m aking m a t e r ia ls t h a t we f e l t w ould 22 p r esen t u n accep tab le r is k s , 23 Q But you have n o t done t h a t r e t r o 24 s p e c t i v e l y in th e s e n s e t h a t you may - 25 A I'm n o t c o g n iz a n t t h a t we have a* JAM ES MAY REPORTING SERVICE * ft 1 2 3 4 5 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 I 15 15 i ,r [ 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 s i t u a t i o n or we had a s i t u a t i o n t h a t we f e l t th e r i s k s were suck we had to d is c o n t in u e th e s i t u a t i o n d u r in g my tiioa w ith th e company. Q Are you f a m i l i a r w ith PAB, p a ra -a m in o - biphenyl? A T h a t's why I s a i d my tim e a t th e company Q So you a r e f a m i l i a r w ith th e PAB - A I have some know ledge o f i t , y e s . Q And w ould t h a t be an exam ple? A I'm n ot aware o f the d e t a i ls , but I would have to say th a t is an example o f the r is k s were s u f f ic ie n t ly great where they decided to d iscon tin u e m anufacture. Q Now, in making th ose k in d s o f ju d g m ents, what are the th in gs th a t you as a to x ic o lo g is t look at? A I t would cover ev ery scrap o f in fo r m ation I c o u ld g e t on th e s i t u a t i o n . I t would in c lu d e the nature o f the e f f e c t , the lik e lih o o d or p r a c tic a lity or p rob ab ility of co n tro llin g exposure, assessm ent as to whether the r e s u lt and the exposure a fte r co n tro ls w as, q u ote, a cce p ta b le or u n accep tab le in terms o f r is k . I t w ould in c lu d e a s e r i e s o f d e c is io n s . The u t i l i t y o f the product, it s worth or the v a lu e. O bviously, the d ram atic exam ple i s something th a t m ight go in to a su ntan JAM ES MAY REPORTING SERVICE 6: lo tio n or a h a ir c o lo r . Does i t w arrant a degree o f r is k th a t a drug to save a life -th r e a te n in g d isea se m ight b e . So there is a v a r ie ty o f fa c to r s , and to p r o p e r ly make th e judgm ent one w ould w ant t o g e t a l l the in fo r m a tio n o f w h atever n a tu re th a t m ight bear on t h i s and s e e how a l l t h i s f i t s t o g e t h e r and what u l tim ate c o n c lu sio n th ere would be. Q Would you u n d ertak e th a t k in d o f in q u iry and procedure, or r a th e r , what kind o f a problem would warrant th a t kind o f un d ertak in g procedure th a t you have j u s t ta lk ed about7 I mean, you w o u ld n 't do th a t in ev ery ca se i f a guy g e ts a pimple here and th e r e , but i s th e r e some q u a l i t a t i v e a s s e s s m e n t you make on th e se kind of problems th a t m ight be p resen ted to you? MR. LOVE: S t u a r t , I ! m g o in g to ob j e c t to your q u e s t io n s im p ly b e c a u se I don* t u n d e rsta n d i t . I d o n 't know w h eth er y o u 'r e a sk in g him to say s i x p eop le have to d ie b efo re i t becomes a problem . I f Dr. L evinskas un d erstan d s the q u e s tio n , I 'd a sk him to answer i t , but I d o n 't. A My g r e a t p u zz lem e n t i s when you s a y when t h is s it u a t io n is p r e sen ted to you. As I s a id e a r l i e r , th e r e a r e so many nuances in term s o f th e ch em ical and e f f e c t . So when you sa y t h is problem , i f JAM ES MAY REPORTING SERVICE 1. i t ' s n o t a c o n c r e te exam ple or more c o n c r e te ex a m p le, 2 i t ' s d if f ic u lt to answer. 3 Q (By Mr. C a lw e ll) One o f your manu 4 f a c t u r i n g f a c i l i t i e s has ov er 200 p e o p le who h ave come 5 down w ith c h lo r a c n e , a g r e a t number o f them com p lain ed 6 o f aches and p ain s, sh ortn ess of breath , sleep d iso rd er s, 7 lo s s o f lib id o and th ere s a c o n s is te n t pattern o f 8 th o s e k in d s o f c o m p la in t s , over 200 workmen* s compen 9 s a tio n claim s are f i l e d by th e company in co n n ectio n 10 w it h t h a t somewhat c o n s i s t e n t symptom c o m p la in t. I s 11 t h a t th e k in d o f a problem from a t o x i c o l o g i c a l s i t u a t i o n 12 t h a t w ould w a rra n t th e kind o f in q u ir y you d e s c r ib e d ? 13 A I w ould a s k you how lo n g d id i t tak e 14 th o se 200 workmen*s co m p en sa tio n c la im s to be f i l e d ? 15 Q A bout e ig h t e e n m onths. 16 A I s th e e ig h te e n -m o n th tim e span d u rin g 17 w h ich th e s e c o m p la in ts o c c u r r e d and t h i s happened? 8 Q That*s r ig h t. 19 A Then I w ould sa y a t th e b e g in n in g o f 20 th a t somewhere someone sh ould s t a r t pondering what the 21 i s s u e s a r e and i s t h i s a prob lem . In o th e r w o r d s, one 22 w ould n o t w a it f o r 200 c a s e s . One w ould s t a r t a t an 23 e a r l i e r s t a g e . 24 Q Would t h a t h y p o t h e t ic a l s i t u a t i o n 25 w a rra n t t h e a l l - o u t e f f o r t t h a t you j u s t d e s c r ib e d to me JAM ES MAY REPORTING SERVICE I 65 1 about looking a t every scrap o f evidence? 2 A I thin k i t would. 3 Q And th e id e a o f th a t in q u ir y w ould 4 le a d you t o th e p o in t o f b e in g a o l e to make th e ju d g 5 ment c a l l about w hether the r is k is a c c e p ta b le or 6 u n accep tab le in terms of fu rth er exposure? 7 A I w ouldn't say that a r isk is a ccep t 3 a b le or u n a ccep ta b le. I th in k one would go to r e s o lv e 9 the issu e to r eso lv e the problem . Perhaps, the b e st 10 exam ple i s ab o u t sm oking and lun g c a n c e r . We know 11 c h a t a c e r t a i n number o f lun g c a n c e r s a re g o in g t o 12 o c c u r , s o i f we had a c h e m ic a l and th e r e was one in 13 a c ir f e r c - u t in d u s tr y so.ae tim e back where you g e t a 14 lu n g c a n c e r c a s e and yoi s a y , w e l l , we e x p e c t t o f in d 15 a c o u o ie lung c a n c e r s v.i a group o f w o r k e r s. Some tim e 16 l a t e r you g e t a n o th e r lung c a n c e r and th e y s a y , we 17 e x p e c t a c o u p le m ore, then you g e t t h r e e , fo u r and 18 f i v e . Somewnere you s a y , my God, we nave more lu n g 19 c a n c e r s than we sh o u ld s t a t i s t i c a l l y h a v e . Now you 20 have a c o g n iz a n c e o f a problem . Now i f someone w ere 21 t o s a y , when d id you f i r s t oecome aware o f t h i s lu n g 22 c a n c e r p rob lem , so you go back t o t h a t f i r s t c a s e w h ich 23 was a y e a r , f i v e y e a r s e a r l i e r and you s a y ,y o u mean 24 you have u n w n a b o u t i t f o r f i v e y e a r s and h a v e n 11 25 done a n y t h in g . I s a i d , w e l l , th e r e c o g n i t io n o f i t JAM ES MAY REPORTING SERVICE I > w a sn Tt u n t i l I t e x c e e d e d some b o u n d a r ie s , you had t o \ 2 g e t more than you e x p e c te d . I th in k t h is is one o f 3 the d if f ic u lt ie s of a l l occu pational m edicine. I 4 have had ev ery com p lain t th a t the d io x in people have 5 had e x c e p t I won' t comment on im potence. I f e e l t ir e d , 6 I g e t i r r i t a b l e , I f o r g e t t h in g s , I h aven ' t had c h lo r 7 acn e ; and how do you d i s a s s o c i a t e th e n o n - s p e c i f i c 8 com p lain t from the d a ily pains o f liv in g and where 9 d o es i t g e t to the p o in t where you s a y , my God, some 10 body r e c o g n iz e s th a t t h i s s i t u a t i o n i s la r g e r than i t 11 sh o u ld b e. So the r e c o g n i t io n o f the problem and then 12 th e r e s o l u t i o n o f th e problem -- 'There a r e no c l e a r c u t 13 t o u c h s t o n e s . I t ' s n o t l i k e a . t r a f f i c l i g h t t h a t g o e s 14 from g reen co r e d .i n a m a tter o f a se c o n d . We can 15 t a l k and s o r t o f h y p o th e s iz e in g e n e r a l i t i e s , but i t ' s 16 v e r y d i f f i c u l t t o be v e r y s p e c i f i c or t o t r y t o g iv e 17 you exam p les w ith o u t g e t t i n g down to th e c o n c r e te d e 18 t a i l s p lu s th e in fo r m a tio n t h a t ' s known p lu s th e f a c t 19 t h a t o v e r th e t h i r t y y e a r s , h a v in g g o tte n ou t o f gra d u 20 a t e s c h o o l j u s t l a s t month t h i r t y y ea rs a g o , th a t the 21 s t a n d a r d s , the c o n c e p t o f s a f e t y has ch a n g ed . I t 22 I s n ' t th e d e f i n i t i o n o f w hat we a r e t r y in g to do has 23 ch a n g ed . I t ' s been g r e a t l y exp an d ed . The c o n c e p t o f 24 s a f e t y in c lu d e s su ch t h in g s a s a s t h e t i c s , n o t o n ly be c le a n and h e a lth y , but the sm e ll v a lu e s . Years ago JAM ES MAY REPORTING SERVICE 1 d o n * t d e a l w ith the p h y s ic a l exams o f p eop le and we X 2 donrt co n ta ct norm ally the p la n t personn el. But some 3 body has to have cogn izan ce o f a problem and then i t 4 would be c a l l i n g in o th e r p e o p le f o r r e s o l u t i o n o f i t . 5 Q The h y p o t h e t ic a l I o u t lin e d f o r you 6 you agree was of s u f f i c i e n t magnitude to j u s t i f y the 7 a l l - o u t e f f o r t you ta lk ed about? 8 A Y es. I f you had 200 em p loyees com 9 p la in in g of a c o n d itio n , somebody ought to look a t i t . 10 Q Now, in a d d it io n t o , p e r h a p s, d e c id 11 in g w hat ougnt to be done to c o r r e c t a s t r e s s s i t u a t i o n , 12 u s in g your d e f i n i t i o n o f s t r e s s , a r e th e r e fo llo w u p 13 program s, fo r exam p le, l i k e , m e d ic a l m o n ito r in g t h a t 14 w ould come w it h in th e pu rview o f th e t o x i c o l o g i s t or 15 i n d u s t r i a l h y g ie n is t ? 16 A N ot in the pu rview o f the t o x i c o l o g i s t . 17 One w ould a tte m p t t o s e t up some p r o c ed u r es or c o n t r o l 18 or m o n ito r in g to s e e w h a tev e r the c o n d it io n s w ere t h a t 19 th o s e w ere c a p a b le o f o p e r a tin g s a f e l y under th o s e c o n 20 d i t i o n s . . The n a tu r e o f th e m o n ito r in g w ould depend on 21 th e s u b s ta n c e ana th e a b i l i t y t o m o n ito r . One c a n n o t 22 p u l i o f f a s h e l f an a n a l y t i c a l method f o r ev ^ r y ch em i 23 c a l and b i o l o g i c a l f l u i d o f th e a i r , o r what have y o u , 24 b a t some e f f o r t sh o u ld be made to in s u r e t h a t th e new 25 c o n d it io n s w ere b e in g m et. JAM ES MAY REPORTING SERVICE 6 Q And in c o n d it io n s th a t would i n v o lv e a reejcposure to some d e g r e e , does th a t c o n d itio n c a r r y w ith i t - a n e c e s s i t y fo r some m ed ica l m on itorin g? A 1 th in k t h a t w ould depend on w hat the r e e x p o su r e w ould b e . The n a tu r e o f the r e e x p o su r e as w e ll as the chem ical or the m a teria ls to which the reexp osu re was o c c u rr in g . Q But th a t's som ething th a t's a reco g n ized step to take in your d is c ip lin e cr in the d i s c i p lin e of in d u str ia l hygiene? A I t ' s one way of approaching the s u b je c t. I have a l i t t l e d if f ic u lt y w ith sayin g a recognized step^ as such, because th ere a r e , a s fa r a s I know, no tex tb o o k s and no s ta n c a r d s s e t o u t t h a t t h in g s have to be done ch is way or th a t way. There are la rg e elem en ts of judgment th at go through a l l of th ese steps. MR. CALiviLL: C h a r lie , lo o k a t t h i s document h ere. I t ' s a 1382 document. I assum e you want t o make th e same o b j e c t io n on i t . MR. LOVd: .Y e s . I w ould make the same o b j e c t io n to i t . MR. CAL'wTdLL: L e t ' s mark i t and I ' l l in tr o d u c e i t , you make th e o b j e c t i o n . Q (By Mr. C a lw e ll) Dr. L e v in s k a s , I JAM ES MAY REPORTING SERVICE s 1 want to hand you w h a t 's been marked P l a i n t i f f s ' E x h i b i t s. * 2" 337 (Monsanto 8324400 and 8 3 2 4 4 0 1 ) . 3 MR. LOVE; We w ould o b j e c t t o t h e 4 in tro d u c tio n and use of w h at's been marked 5 for evidence as P l a i n t i f f s 1 Exhibit 337, 6 which bears Monsanto I.D. numbers 8324400 7 and the secono page bearing Monsanto I.D. 8 number 8324401, on t h e b a s i s i t was g e n e r a 9 te d pursuant to the incident litig a tio n . 10 MR. CAIiMill: I a "urar .*o u ' r e g o i n g 11 t o i n s t r u c t him n o t t o a n s w e r a n y q u e s t io n s 12 a b ^ u t t h e d o c u m e n t. 13 ii?.. 1 * vi. ; i 1*j i -- a -*" 14 \ /I . -if r . Ca 1V- ` 1' \ *OW, on-3 more 15 T , an i t `. in k we V i l l be th ro u g h . 16 a b o u t your unders ta nt? U-g t h a t Dr. 17 were nne a .,.d thfi :r;me *v ith the DMi 18 s tu d y p e r t a in in g t o th e M icro p o p u la tio n , r o you r e 19 member th a t? 20 A In so fa r as I know, those a re id e n t ic a l. 21 Q how, have you been taade aware o f any 22 o f I r . S u s k in d 's c o n c lu s io n s or r e s u l t s from th o s e s t u d ie s ? 23 A I have heard g e n e r a l d i s c u s s i o n a b o u t 24 them . I 8ve n o t s e e n nor read th e r e p o r t . 25 Q Do you know i f th e r e i s in f a c t - - JAM ES MAY REPORTING SERVICE X You u n d erstan d what a m o r b id ity stu d y is ? 2 A Yes. 3 Q And was i t your u n d e r sta n d in g t h a t 4 D r. S u sk in d was g o in g t o do w hat may be termed a mor 5 b i d i t y stu d y on the N it r o p o p u la tio n ? A That!s correct, 7 Q And was t h a t in f a c t th e same th in g 8 a s th e DMbH s tu d y th a t we ta lk e d a b o u t e a r l i e r ? 9 A A : I ' ve s a i d , a s f a r a s I know th e 10 DMH s tu d y ^.nc the S u sk in d s tu d y a t the K itr o P la n t n are the sa--7? s tudy. ' 12 0 In you know i f th e r e i s a r e p o r t 13 r orn Dr. "us k inci on th e mor b id 1 1y stu d y ? 14 ' I r e a l l y am n o t p o s i t i v e th a t the 15 r e p o r t ir is s u e d . I know t h e r e ' s been c o n s id e r a b le 16 d i s c u s s i o n oyer the d e la y in h i s i s s u i n g h i s r e p o r t , 17 w h eth er i t was is s u e d r e l a t i v e l y r e c e n t l y I d o n 't know, 18 Q Have you heard th a t i t i s or t h a t i t 19 i s n ' t or you j u s t d o n 't know? 20 MR, : I f you know, answ er th e 21 q u e s t io n . I f you d o n 't know, t e l l him you 22 d o n 't know, 23 A I d o n 't know w h eth er th e r e p o r t has 24 been is s u e d . 25 } (By Mr. C a lw e ll) But you have been JAM ES MAY REPORTING SERVICE t 1 p r iv y to some d is c u s s io n s ab o u t th e r ep o rt? 2 3 report. ^ I f ve heard some d i s c u s s i o n abou t th e 4 Q O.K. And have you heard an y d i s c u s s i o n s 5 about the rep ort con clu sion s? 6 k The r e c o ll e c t i o n I have is th a t e x c e o t 7 V fo r the c h lo ra en e, th a t th ere was no r e s id u a l, no e v i 8 dence o f r e sid u a l in ju ry in any o f the em ployees. 9 M3. CAlVSLL: O.K. Thank you , D o c to r . 10 That w i l l do i t . 11 12 13 14 15 16 C eree j , yevin*."!:a " 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 JAM ES MAY REPORTING SERVICE 73  1 STATE OF ILLINOIS ) ) SS. 2 COUNTY 0F: MADISON ) 3 4 5 I , M. JOY SFRINGER, a N o t a r y P u b l i c , d u l y 6 commissioned and q u a lif ie d in and fo r the County of 7 Madison, S tate of I l l i n o i s , do hereby c e r t i f y th a t 8 p u r s u a n t t o n o t i c e came b e f o r e me on t h e 1 4 t h d a y 9 o f J u l y , 1983 , a t t h e R a d i s s o n H o t e l , Room 2 1 5 , 9 t h ., -. 10 S t r e e t an d C o n v e n t i o n P l a z a , S t . L o u i s , M i s s o u r i , 11 GEORGE J . LEVINSKAS, who was by me d u l y sworn t o 12 t e s t i f y t o t h e t r u t h an d n o t h i n g b u t t h e t r u t h o f 13 h i s know ledge t o u c h i n g and c o n c e r n i n g t h e m a t t e r s i n 14 c o n t r o v e r s y i n t h i s c a s e ; t h a t he was t h e r e u p o n c a r e 15 f u l l y e x a m in e d upon o a t h , a n d h i s e x a m i n a t i o n r e d u c e d 16 t o w r i t i n g u n d e r my s u p e r v i s i o n ; t h a t th e d e p o s i t i o n 17 i s a t r u e r e c o r d o f t h e t e s t i m o n y g i v e n by t h e w i t 18 n e s s ; a n d s i g n a t u r e o f t h e w i t n e s s was n o t w a i v e d . 19 I FURTHER CERTIFY t h a t I am n e i t h e r a t t o r 20 ney nor counsel for nor r e la te d to nor employed by 21 a n d o f t h e p a r t i e s t o th e a c t i o n i n w h i c h t h i s d e p o 22 s i t i o n i s t a k e n ; and f u r t h e r , t h a t I am n o t a r e l a t i v e 23 or employee of any a tto rn e y or counsel employed by 24 the p a rtie s hereto, or fin a n c ia lly in te re ste d in the 25 action. JAMES MAY REPORTING SERVICE 74 1 IN WITNESS WHEREOF, I have h e r eu n to s e t 2 my hand hd a f f i x e d my n o t a r i a l s e a l on t h i s 3 day of Ju ly, 1983. 4 5 6 7 N o ta ry P u b lic w i t h i n and f o r the 8 County o f Madison, State of I l l i n o i s . 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 JAMES MAY REPORTING SERVICE --